Matthew 1:1, 17 - 25; Matthew 2:13 - 15; Isaiah 9:6 - 7; Isaiah 12:4 - 6

G.R.C. I thought we might consider the great truth of Emmanuel, which means "God [El] with us"; and then the kind of persons who are able to appreciate this name, as it says in verse 23 of chapter 1, "they shall call his name Emmanuel, which is, being interpreted, 'God with us'", so that we might get some apprehension of who the "they" and the "us" are. It is a matter which bears on the personnel which composes the assembly, and also on the assembly itself. In this first reading, however, it would be well to consider the person of Christ Himself. He is introduced here as Jesus Christ, Son of David, Son of Abraham; and in verse 17 all the generations concentrate on the Christ. Then there is His personal Name -- "Thou shalt call his name Jesus", and the reason for that; and then, "they shall call His name Emmanuel". Isaiah 9 indicates that there are those who appreciate in full measure the One who has come in -- "For unto us a child is born, unto us a Son is given; and the government shall be upon His shoulders; and His name is called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God", [mighty El] "Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of His government and of peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it". So that peace is what is in view in the rule of the Son of David, He whose name in the type -- Solomon -- means 'peaceful'. But then it is an immense thing that our affections should be engaged with the Person. He is introduced in Matthew as the Beloved. The son of David was named Jedidiah, "Beloved of Jehovah",

the one of whom Jehovah said, "I will be to him father, and he shall be to me son"; and the son of Abraham was his only son, whom he loved. The Lord Jesus is thus presented as an object of great affection. As the Christ, the Anointed, He is also the Beloved. "Behold my servant, whom I have chosen, my Beloved, in whom my soul has found its delight. I will put my Spirit upon Him", Matthew 12:18. We need to apprehend Him as the Beloved, and to give Him that place in our affections. The King is the Beloved in Psalm 45 and in the Song of Songs. In this Gospel the King, the Beloved, is introduced. But then there is the question of who He is in His Person -- "They shall call His name Emmanuel, which is, being interpreted, 'God [El] with us'".

Ques. In Isaiah the giving of the name 'Immanuel' seems to be attributed to the virgin. "Behold, the virgin shall conceive and shall bring forth a son, and call his name Immanuel" Isaiah 7:14. What is the difference between that, and Matthew 1:23 -- "they shall call His name Emmanuel"?

G.R.C. The change which the Spirit of God gives in Matthew is very significant. Persons come to light who appreciate who Jesus is, and they call Him by this name.

Ques. Is the word, "the virgin", in Isaiah, a prophetic allusion to the remnant in a coming day?

G.R.C. I am glad you have mentioned that. When Sennacherib came up, the prophetic word was, "The virgin-daughter of Zion despiseth thee, laugheth thee to scorn", 2 Kings 19:21, the reason being that the name Emmanuel was apprehended -- 'God with us'. If we understand that, we can afford to despise the enemy, and laugh him to scorn.

Ques. So that the "they", to whom you draw attention in verse 23, would be those in whom virgin features are coming into expression. Is that right?

G.R.C. Very good. I have wondered whether the

gospel of Matthew, rightly understood, would bring about in us what corresponds to the virgin -- or unconquered -- daughter of Zion; and that is why I think it is important to see that the One coming in, according to Matthew, is the Beloved.

Ques. I would like to go back to what you said about the Beloved. Does it not involve that we are brought into communion with the Father in regard to the Son? The names Son of David and Son of Abraham, suggest the Father's thoughts about the Son. Are we not brought into communion with Him?

G.R.C. God says of the son of David, "I will be to him father and he shall be to me son". The Lord Jesus is the Son of the Father's love. Then the word to Abraham was, "Take now thy son, thine only son, whom thou lovest, Isaac". God has relied upon an object of such tender affection to carry things through for Him; as the Son of Abraham He was to lay the basis for blessing. The Father, the Lord of the heaven and of the earth, had in mind to fill heaven and earth with families named of Himself, and the carrying through of His purpose was entrusted to One whose affections were equal to it -- His only Son, whom He loved. On the other hand, the Son of David is the one upon whom God relies to gather up the response of the whole universe. The outgoings of all the saved families will be gathered up by Him in responsive praise to God. It is the Beloved who accomplishes those great matters. Is that so?

Rem. I am sure what you say is right. One is very much impressed with the marvellous privilege of being brought into communion with the Father regarding His Son. "The Father loves the Son, and has given all things to be in his hand".

G.R.C. It all bears on the title, "the Christ", the One to whom God can entrust everything. The anointing means that he is the Prophet, Priest, King and Preacher; it covers all. The title, "the Christ",

means that He fills out every office, and does so with a glory with which only "Emmanuel" could do it.

Ques. Would the love you have been speaking of be an answer to His own word in John 17 -- "That the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them and I in them"?

G.R.C. We learn to love the Christ, the Centre of the divine system. Paul says in Ephesians 3, "I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ ... in order that he may give you according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with power by his Spirit in the inner man; that the Christ may dwell, through faith, in your hearts". He is the Beloved of the Father, and Isaiah 9 shows how affectionately we embrace Him -- "unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given". How much we appreciate that such an One had been given to us. We can think delightedly of what He is to God; but He is also given to us to be the Object of our affections, the Object of our trust.

Ques. Is that what is in mind in the baptism? "This is my beloved Son, in whom I have found my delight". God wants us all to come into it.

G.R.C. That is why I suggested reading in chapter 2. The word there is, "Out of Egypt have I called my son". He is Son of David and Son of Abraham, but the One who fills out those great positions is the One of whom God says, "my Son". That is why the positions are so great. Whatever promises of God there are -- and most of these were connected with the Son of David and the Son of Abraham -- in the Son of God is the yea, and in Him the amen. The Son of God has, in grace, become Son of David and Son of Abraham.

Ques. Would these affections have affected Peter peculiarly in his confession in this Gospel? "Thou art the Christ the Son of the living God".

G.R.C. The "Thou" is emphatic -- "Thou art

the Christ"; and I think it shows that Peter was a worshipper of Christ. To be rightly in the assembly, it is essential to be a worshipper of Christ.

Ques. In 2 Corinthians 1:19 and 20, to which you have referred, the Apostle says, "The Son of God, Jesus Christ, He who has been preached by us among you". Is the expression "Son of God" there a worshipful one?

G.R.C. I am sure it is; and, as I was saying, we have to keep in mind that behind the expression, "Son of David", lies Psalm 45 and the Song of Songs. Solomon, the king, is the beloved.

Ques. I was wondering whether the Person of Christ is a theme which constantly recalls our hearts, because the three sets of fourteen generations involve the matter of recovery at the end, do they not? Abraham to David is, in one sense, an unbroken line; and then we have the carrying away; and then everything recovered in the Christ. Would that bear upon our day, and cause the hearts of recovered persons to appreciate Christ more and more?

G.R.C. I think that. The Immanuel section of Isaiah begins with "Shear-jashub", which means, "a remnant shall return". Isaiah was told to take his stand, with his son, at the end of the aqueduct of the upper pool on the highway of the fuller's field, Isaiah 7:3, and it was the remnant who returned in heart to God who proved the truth of Emmanuel in that day. You are referring to the return from Babylon; but even before the captivity they had departed from God; and, through Isaiah's ministry, a remnant of Judah returned to God. Thus the features of the virgin daughter of Zion came to light in Jerusalem, and therefore the truth of Emmanuel, "God with us", was realised. And so, in our day, unless the features of the virgin daughter of Zion come to light through affection for Christ and true return to God, we shall never understand the truth of Emmanuel. Virgin

affections for Christ come first. He is the Beloved, and as He has this place with us we begin to apprehend the great truth of Emmanuel.

Ques. If these affections do appear, does it not make for features of impregnability in the assembly?

G.R.C. Exactly. Matthew provides for a remnant day -- two or three are envisaged. Matthew 18:20.

Rem. Paul says, "For I am jealous as to you with a jealousy which is of God, for I have espoused you unto one man, to present you a chaste virgin to Christ", 2 Corinthians 11:2.

G.R.C. I believe the first book of the New Testament is intended to espouse us to one Man. The King has come in, and the King is the Beloved.

Ques. Is not the idea of a king that he himself is the source of power? In a certain sense it is greater than the idea of 'lord', is it not? Lordship would be more delegated power, but a king is presented as the source of power.

G.R.C. Kingship includes lordship and headship. Even in this country the monarch is sovereign lord, but also head of the State. They are different ideas. Lordship implies authority, and includes military power; but headship implies influence and direction through affection. There is a moral quality about headship. The fact that the King is the Beloved would link with headship. He is ruling not simply by power, or authority, but in the affections of His people. And the true King, the Lord Jesus, rules in the affections of His people in order to lead our affections to God. David himself had nothing less than that in mind. If he secured the affections of the people as king, it was in order to lead them to God.

Ques. Does Colossians 1 bear on what you are saying? The Father has "translated us into the kingdom of the Son of his love", and "He is the Head of the body, the assembly".

G.R.C. That is very helpful. The Son of His love

is the King, and He is the Head of the body, the assembly.

Rem. It says of David that he bowed the hearts of the men of Israel as one man.

Rem. The Lord's first thought in resurrection was, "Go to my brethren".

G.R.C. Even in Matthew the Lord Jesus called the disciples His brethren. "Go, bring word to my brethren that they go into Galilee, and there they shall see me", chapter 28: 10. They are the brethren of the King in the sphere of administration; and therefore they are to be like the King, and that is what this gospel has in mind. Persons are to be secured who are like the King.

Rem. In 2 Samuel 19:12 it says, "Ye are my brethren ye are my bone and my flesh; and why will ye be the last to bring back the king?" And it goes on to say, "And he bowed the heart of all the men of Judah as of one man" verse 14.

G.R.C. I think that is what the Lord is securing in this gospel -- those who are of His order. Psalm 45 begins with the king, but it closes with "Instead of thy fathers shall be thy sons". The genealogy here brings in the fathers; they are persons we rightly greatly respect -- Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Judah, and so on, persons in whom the Spirit of Christ was. But "Instead of thy fathers shall be thy sons; princes shalt thou make them in all the earth".

Ques. "Who shall declare his generation?" it says in Isaiah 53:8. Is the generation being declared here?

G.R.C. It also says in verse 10 of that chapter, "he shall see a seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of Jehovah shall prosper in his hand". Psalm 45 stresses that instead of thy fathers shall be thy sons; Isaiah 53 says, "he shall see a seed"; and Psalm 22, which links specifically with Matthew, ends by saying, "A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation", verse 30. These

passages help us to see who the "they" are who "call his name Emmanuel, which is, being interpreted, 'God with us'". Who is God with? He is not with man after the flesh. Who is He with? Well, it says, "a seed shall serve him".

Rem. The first man whose name is given to us in the New Testament -- Joseph -- is said to be a righteous man. You have referred to those who are like the king. To a righteous man the word comes, "Take to thee the little child and its mother", Matthew 2:20. It is to righteous persons that this affectionate aspect of Christ can be committed without any reserve whatsoever.

G.R.C. I think that is most important. Righteousness is a primary feature of the generation we are speaking about. The first evidence of life is righteousness; "the Spirit life on account of righteousness", Romans 9:10. If we wish to discern the children of God according to John's epistle, "If ye know that he is righteous, know that everyone who practices righteousness is begotten of him", 1 John 2:29. If you are seeking those who are of Christ's order, righteousness is the first thing you look for.

Ques. Is that the thought connected with the expression, "princes shalt thou make them"? The moral features of the king are seen in the princes.

G.R.C. That is right, and righteousness shines pre-eminently in the king according to Psalm 45:7, "Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated wickedness". The Lord's first public utterance was, "thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness", Matthew 3:15. And righteousness marks the seed to which we have referred. If you want to find them, you have to look out for that feature -- righteousness.

Ques. Joseph, who is spoken of as a righteous man, was also addressed as, "Son of David". Does that suggest the seed?

G.R.C. Yes, he came on the line of the generation

of Jesus Christ; but then he was also morally a son of David, because he was a righteous man, and unwilling to expose Mary publicly. A righteous man is a feeling man, like David. David was not a man who, if he could help it, would expose anyone publicly. He would not expose Saul publicly.

Ques. Do you see any significance in the putting together in Psalm 45 of the Beloved, and then this matter of righteousness, "because of truth and meekness and righteousness", and then the salutation to Him as God, "Thy throne, O God". Is that in keeping with the line of truth in your mind in Matthew?

G.R.C. I am sure it is, and as you say, it puts truth first, "because of truth and meekness and righteousness". In the Immanuel section of Isaiah, the issue God has with the people is that "this people refuseth the waters of Shiloah which flow softly"; that is a matter of the truth. If we are to be in the gain of the truth, we must make way for the Spirit of truth; and if we do not make way for the Spirit of truth, typified in the waters of Shiloah, God will bring up upon us the waters of the river great and many -- the king of Assyria -- in the way of discipline. There does not appear, from that scripture, to be any middle course. If persons reject the waters of Shiloah which flow softly, they come under God's discipline in connection with the river. But then the discipline of God is to bring us back. In the history of Israel it had that effect, and will again do so in the future. The discipline brings them back to an appreciation of the waters which flow softly. The aqueduct of the upper pool, and the highway of the fuller's field, indicate that giving place to the Spirit on the one hand, and practical righteousness and purity on the other, are consequent one on the other.

Ques. You are linking the highway of the fuller's field with purity?

G.R.C. Yes, I think it would indicate that.

Ques. I would like to ask whether the worship of Christ, the Beloved, as God, does enter into this matter? I am not thinking only of assembly service, but of making room at all times, personally and assembly-wise, for the recognition of His Deity. Would that help to keep us small and steady in regard to the truth?

G.R.C. I am sure it would, and I believe we come into the gain of that vitally on the line of affection; and so here the Lord is introduced with titles which relate to Him as the Beloved, the long expected One; and then it says, "They shall call his name Emmanuel, which is, being interpreted, 'God with us'".

Ques. Is the word "O Immanuel" in Isaiah 8:8 a worshipful return in divine recovery, do you think?

G.R.C. Yes, I do. So that He is not only the child born, and the son given, but His name is called the Mighty God [El], Isaiah 9:6. What a wonderful thing to get such an impression of Christ!

Rem. According to Isaiah 8, the combinations of opposition, on the part of those who refused the waters of Shiloah, were all to be frustrated in the light of verse 10, "God [El] is with us". The various conspiracies would come to nought. Thus everything which is opposed to the truth today will be overcome in the light of the glory of Christ, Who is God with us.

G.R.C. We have to beware lest the spirit of conspiracy is found amongst us -- anything which is underhand. Everything amongst us should be above-board. If anything in the nature of conspiracy is working, it cannot be according to truth.

Rem. That is just what I was thinking. It is not on the principle of righteousness to which we have referred.

G.R.C. No. Once persons engage in anything underhand, or in the nature of conspiracy, it is evident that they are not walking in truth. If we are

walking in truth, we are transparent and prepared for adjustment, and what we say, we say in the open; there are no underground methods.

Ques. Was not the first feature of evil to show itself in the church in the early days, in Ananias and Sapphira, the feature of conspiracy?

G.R.C. Quite so. There was something hidden, but Peter brought it out. Then, in the wider sphere there is the link between Syria and Israel in Isaiah 8. We do not desire to criticise persons, because God sovereignly uses persons, but we have to look at principles. The kingdom of Israel in Isaiah's day would link with the open position in ours -- the giving up of principles among those who are professedly people of God. This leads to alliance with the world, and the adoption of worldly methods. Syria joined with Israel, and the governmental result was that God brought up the waters of the river, the King of Assyria, as an overflowing scourge. Movements of that kind, unholy confederacies between the world and the church, even though having as their object the furtherance of the gospel, will only result in disaster as far as the public testimony is concerned, and those engaged will be carried away by the waters of the river. The only thing not swept away by the Assyrian was Jerusalem: he came right up to the gates of Jerusalem, he reached even to the neck. Isaiah 8:8. When all else was carried away, the virgin daughter of Zion and the city of Jerusalem were preserved. It is only in holding in integrity to the truth of the assembly that we will be preserved.

Rem. You are seeking to promote affection for the Beloved; nothing less than virgin affections will preserve us. There is what is outward and what is inward, and the inward is essential.

G.R.C. What is outward flows from what is inward. It is a question of love for Christ -- virgin affections; so that the virgin daughter of Zion is to

come to light in our day. He is the Beloved; we love Him and take character from Him; we love righteousness and hate lawlessness. And it is thus that we prove the reality of Emmanuel.

Ques. Does Romans 8 help? The Spirit of Christ is referred to in the early part of the chapter; then our proving practically that we have no need of alliances because God is for us; and then at the close of the chapter there is the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord, which perhaps might bring us into the gain of "God with us".

G.R.C. That chapter bears on the waters of Shiloah in its emphasis on the Spirit. The fact is that if we make any kind of alliance, it means that we are not relying on the Spirit; the alliance between Syria and Israel was outside the range of the Spirit and the issue with the people was that they refused, "the waters of Shiloah which flow softly". We need to learn to rely wholly on the Spirit, and to move together in the Spirit; and that involves transparency.

Ques. Does Siloam in John 9 connect with Shiloah? The cure of the blindness resulted in the man doing homage to the Son of God.

G.R.C. The Secret of being cured from blindness is to avail ourselves of the waters of Shiloah which flow softly. The man had to go and wash.

Ques. Does not the "daughter" suggest formation? Should we not be exercised as to our young people, that there should be formation by the Spirit?

G.R.C. Yes. And what would hinder that is our not being saved from our sins. That is one of our greatest difficulties. "Thou shalt call his name Jesus, for he shall save his people from their sins". If we are not in the gain of that, how can we know anything about Emmanuel? God says, "Your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you", Isaiah 59:2. If we fail to understand and realise the truth of

Emmanuel, it is because our iniquities have separated between us and our God; yet Jesus -- "Jah the Saviour" -- has come to save His people from their sins. But are we saved from our sins, or are our sins separating us from our God?

Rem. Saved from them is more than having them eternally forgiven.

G.R.C. Saved from our sins would include the guilt and the consequences; and we see in this gospel what the cross meant to the Lord in order to save us from those consequences. But here it says, "save His people from their sins", which involves saving us from the power of them, and from the love of them; so that we are free.

Rem. There is a touching reference in 1 Peter 2:24, "Who himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, in order that, being dead to sins, we may live to righteousness".

G.R.C. That is very good. Sins are our trouble. The prophet says that of the increase of His government and of peace there shall be no end. What disturbs peace is sins.

Ques. Would the increasing appreciation of the Person help us in relation to being saved from our sins?

G.R.C. I do not think we are practically saved from our sins until the Lord Jesus is our Beloved.

Ques. In verse 21 it says, "he shall save his people from their sins". Does it not involve the Deity of Christ, that the people are described as His people? The great sacrifice of Himself, by which He saved His people from their sins, would greatly endear Him to us.

G.R.C. Would it not lay the basis for the virgin affections we have referred to? We need to see, I think, that virgin affection for Christ involves chastity in every relation. If we are unchaste, or unrighteous, in any relationship of life, it proves that we have not virgin affection for Christ.

Ques. Does such integrity come to light significantly in Joseph? Does he not shine as one to whom God could entrust His most precious interest in view of a time of great crisis? And he did not fail in what was entrusted to him.

G.R.C. Very good.

Ques. In Psalm 45:2, after saying, "Thou art fairer than the sons of men", it says, "therefore God hath blessed thee for ever". Does that emphasise the moral qualities in Christ which underlie the position He has officially, and is that to affect us?

G.R.C. Exactly. So that when we think of Him as the Beloved, we combine David and Solomon in our minds, because of David it says, "I will make him firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth", Psalm 89:27. It was because of his moral qualities.

Rem. And we would be affected by the sufferings of Christ.

G.R.C. Yes. They need to have their full place with us. Virgin affection cannot be secured without an appreciation of the sufferings of Christ.

Ques. Is that seen in the woman in Matthew 26 who anointed the Lord's head in the house of Simon the leper?

G.R.C. She represents the great product of Matthew's gospel, and she anointed His head, "when Jesus had finished all these sayings", Matthew 26:1. How she had appreciated all that the King had said!

Ques. Would the woman in Luke 7 have a bearing on this -- she loved much because she had been forgiven much?

G.R.C. Very good. I do feel that practical salvation from our sins must depend upon affection for Christ. Naturally we love our sins; we may not love them all, but there are sins which we love. According to scripture idolatry is one of the worst sins, and who of us can say that our hearts are free from idols? John refers to Jesus as the true God and eternal life,

and then says, "Children, keep yourselves from idols", 1 John 5:21. Then too, things which are going to affect the peace of Solomon's reign, if I might use that expression, must be dealt with. At the beginning of his reign certain persons had to be dealt with who would have disturbed the peace of the whole realm. It says, "Of the increase of his government and of peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David".

Ques. Psalm 45 also says, "grace is poured into thy lips". Would that mean that the grace of the dispensation should also govern us?

G.R.C. Yes, the grace of the dispensation should govern us at all times; but there are things which hinder the service of God; they hinder peace, and peace is necessary if the service of God is to go forward. Solomon, the man of peace, was the one who instituted the full service of God; and we need peace for that. Great things are coming out, and it is a question of the full service of God, the full service of praise and worship being rendered; and it is a shame on us if there are localities where conditions remain disturbed for long periods. Things should be settled, so that the reign of peace may be established under the Son of David, and the service of God may proceed.

Ques. Is it interesting to see two examples of sin being judged in relation to God? Joseph says, "how shall I sin against God?", Genesis 39:9. And David in Psalm 51 says "Against thee, and thee only, have I sinned".

G.R.C. David is a great example, because human reasoning would have counselled him, on account of his position as king, to hush up the whole matter; suggesting that, if he were to disclose it, he would lose all his influence as king. But it is not so at all. In acting transparently and confessing his sin, and addressing Psalm 51 to the Chief Musician, content that all Israel should know and sing it, he acquired moral power. He did not lose moral power as king,

but acquired more power, although governmentally sorrowful results remained.

Ques. King Ahaz in Isaiah is totally devoid of moral power, is he not? Why is he brought forward so prominently?

G.R.C. Is it not a foreshadowing of the dispensation of grace? He was in the responsible position, and grace waited upon him in the fullest possible way; and he received this great prophecy, "Behold, the virgin shall conceive and shall bring forth a son, and call his name Immanuel". What an appeal to him to be in the truth vitally!

Ques. Does Isaiah 7:13 bear on this? "Is it a small matter for you to weary man, that ye weary also my God?" Are we not made weary often with things which go on through lack of moral power?

G.R.C. I am sure we are.

Ques. Is it striking that the title "Jah" is introduced in connection with sins, Jesus meaning "Jah the Saviour"?

Ques. Had you in mind that the expression "their sins" is something peculiar? It is a challenge as to whether his people are in accord with the position they occupy. In this passage it does not say, save sinners from their sins.

G.R.C. That is important. We may consider ourselves His people, but are we saved yet from our sins? If we do not know experimentally the truth of Emmanuel, it is because we have forfeited it on account of our sins.

Ques. Is there a difference between what may be comparatively recent, and what is of long standing? Matters which Solomon was required to deal with were matters of long standing, whereas Joseph, in Matthew 1:19, was occupied with something current.

G.R.C. Quite so. The persons whom Solomon had to deal with had compromised all the grace of David for many years, had they not?

Ques. Does the title of Psalm 22, "Upon Aijeleth-Shahar" contain a suggestion of virgin affections?

G.R.C. I think it does, confirming the need for us to dwell upon the sufferings of Christ, if such affections are to be produced and we are to be freed from our sins.

Rem. In a day of recovery it says, "and the fountain-gate repaired Shallum the son of Colhozeh, the chief of the district of Mizpah; he built it, and covered it, and set up its doors, its locks and its bars, and the wall of the pool of Shelah by the king's garden, and to the stairs that go down from the city of David. After him repaired Nehemiah the son of Azbuk, the chief of the half district of Bethzur, even over against the sepulchres of David, and to the pool that was made, and to the house of the mighty men", Nehemiah 3:15, 16.

G.R.C. Verse 15 refers specifically to the Spirit in His present activities, the fountain gate, and then the pool of Shelah or Shiloah. The fountain gate may refer to the Spirit as springing up within us, and the pool of Shiloah to the current of the Spirit in which we move together -- the waters of Shiloah which flow softly. But then there is also the pool that was made, which would refer I suppose to past history. We value past ministry; but we cannot get the gain of that unless we are in the gain of the present movements of the Spirit.

Rem. There are several references in these chapters to what was spoken by the Lord through the prophets.

G.R.C. You have in mind the living voice of the Spirit?

Rem. Yes. It says the Lord spoke through the prophets.

IMMERSION

Matthew 3; Matthew 5:1 - 18

G.R.C. I think it will be helpful to dwell upon John the Baptist's testimony to Christ. He refers to the axe being applied to the root of the trees, and then bears testimony to activities of a very distinctive kind on the part of the Lord -- "He shall baptise you with the Holy Spirit and fire; whose winnowing fan is in his hand, and he shall thoroughly purge his threshing floor, and shall gather his wheat into the garner". This refers prophetically to His activities which would bring about conditions amongst His people, saving them from their sins, which would permit them to know unhinderedly the truth of Emmanuel, God with us. Then in chapter 5, in the Lord's first recorded teaching, He sets out in the first seven beatitudes the character of the wheat which He is securing, the features proper to the personnel of the assembly, the sons of the kingdom; so that the operations of the threshing-floor are to bring to pass those features without which we cannot know the blessedness of Emmanuel. These features are set out in the King, Whom we referred to this afternoon as the Beloved, the Object of such affection, the Son of David, the Son of Abraham. Both of these titles bring the Lord Jesus before us as the Beloved, and so also does the title "the Christ". Those who are held in virgin affection for Him become numbered among those who call His name Emmanuel, come to apprehend the truth of His Person, and experience the blessedness of God with us, as saved practically from their sins. If that is to be so, the activities of the Lord are necessary, because of what we are. He thus takes us in hand.

A reference was made to a seed, or generation, being secured. Psalm 22:30. In chapter 1: 1, the word generation is really "genesis". It refers to birth or origin; so that the initial idea in Matthew is to bring out the birth, or origin or genesis, of Jesus Christ, Son of David, Son of Abraham, and to lead on to the fact that in His Person He had no genesis because He is Emmanuel, God with us. But, as the gospel proceeds, another word is used. The Lord says, "To whom shall I liken this generation?", in contrast to wisdom's children, Matthew 11:16 - 19. The offspring of vipers is referred to by John in the chapter we have read; and the Lord Himself refers to the offspring of vipers in chapter 12, and again in chapter 23: 33, where He says, "Serpents, offspring of vipers". Stronger language is used in this gospel, I think, than any, as to the generation which is here. John's ministry would help us to judge ourselves in the light of such denunciations; and then the Lord's operations are to free us from every feature of a generation which can be spoken of in such terms.

The Lord Jesus is securing His wheat. We should take account of John's ministry. It says in verse 6, they "were baptised by him in the Jordan confessing their sins". Jesus had come to save His people from their sins; and being saved from our sins involves the confession of our sins.

Ques. Are you thinking of this as continuous?

G.R.C. Quite so. "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" 1 John 1:9.

Rem. The Lord speaks of fulfilling all righteousness.

G.R.C. That word, "fulfil", is to be noted. It means giving the fulness of a thing. In chapter 5: 17 He says, "Think not that I am come to make void the law or the prophets; I am not come to make void, but to fulfil"; that is, He came to give the fulness of the

law and the prophets. Fulness of righteousness is seen in christianity. It is a standard of righteousness beyond anything known in the Old Testament. The Lord says, "Thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness".

Ques. What is particularly in mind in the word "thus"?

G.R.C. Is not the Lord referring to His action, in grace, in identifying Himself with the repentant remnant?

Ques. That is what I had in mind. Would it have an application now?

G.R.C. J.N.D. said that the moment a person is repentant, and prepared to confess his sins, he finds the Lord Jesus by his side; he finds himself in company with Christ. And therefore he would find himself in company with all those who are in accord with Christ.

Ques. Does not the hungering and thirsting after righteousness, which are inward matters, go beyond anything that has gone before?

G.R.C. It is a remarkable expression. The whole being is craving for it.

Ques. Is it significant that in this gospel it is a question of trees not producing good fruit? In John's gospel it is fruit, but here the character of the fruit is in question.

G.R.C. Quite so; fruit, too, worthy of repentance. "Every tree therefore not producing good fruit is cut down and cast into the fire". The principle of John's baptism is not left behind; that is the principle of repentance, because in Acts 2 Peter says, "Repent, and be baptised, each one of you". Christian baptism has a fulness in it which John's had not, but the idea of repentance and confession is carried into christianity.

Ques. How are we saved from our sins?

G.R.C. Saved from our sins means that we are saved from the sins themselves, the love of them, the

power of them, so that we can experience God with us; and we are saved from them on this basic principle of repentance and confession, and the recognition of the truth of baptism.

Rem. In chapter 1 it is, "He shall save"; but this is our side.

Rem. "He that covereth his transgressions shall not prosper; but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall obtain mercy", Proverbs 28:13.

G.R.C. That is a very important matter, and especially in the case of leaders, because leaders affect the saints and the peace of the saints. Those who came to John here were leaders in Israel, but they were just an offspring of vipers; and we have to see that these principles are in our own hearts, and need to be judged. John himself had no sins to confess here, but he needed adjustment. He said to the Lord, "I have need to be baptised of thee; and comest thou to me? But Jesus answering said to him, Suffer it now". John needed adjustment, and we all need adjustment; and it is a great matter when a leader is adjusted quickly. John the Baptist was adjusted quickly.

Ques. Does John the Baptist's ministry provide a kind of moral quality which takes on adjustment quickly? I was wondering whether the twelve men at Ephesus in Acts 19, knowing only the baptism of John, were persons who were able to accept adjustment; and they became suitable material for the choicest assembly truth?

G.R.C. That is very interesting. They became ready immediately for the gift of the Spirit. The baptism of the Spirit would be readily apprehended by them. I think that baptism and confession, and the recognition that the axe is laid to the root of the trees, brings home the necessity for the baptism of the Spirit.

Ques. Does Matthias come in on that line? I was

thinking of him as one who qualified, as having been with the disciples all the time that Jesus came in and went out among them, beginning from the baptism of John.

G.R.C. Very good. He followed all the way from the baptism of John. One feels the importance of this principle of confession, and also that we should be rapidly adjusted. Peter in chapter 16: 22 is rapidly adjusted. He makes a remark which I suppose his fellow disciples thought was one of the best remarks they had heard. He says, "God be favourable to thee, Lord; this shall in no wise be unto thee". But the Lord rebukes him, and he is rapidly adjusted; and it is very important that leaders should be rapidly adjusted. At Antioch Paul rebuked Peter to his face; the thing was dealt with quickly. The more devoted a man is, and the more the saints value his service, the more damage he can do if he is in any way marked by error, because all the weight of his piety and devotion is on the side of error. It is most important that all who lead among the saints should be ready for rapid adjustment and rebuke if necessary. At Antioch Paul rebuked Peter to his face, and the matter was settled quickly.

Ques. Primarily we confess to God. Is there sometimes need for something further than that?

G.R.C. We have already referred to Joseph not being willing to expose Mary publicly. None of us would desire to expose anyone publicly, but there are occasions when the honour of God in His house requires that things should be openly confessed.

Ques. Might it not depend on whether the assembly has in any public way been affected?

G.R.C. Yes, Quite so.

Ques. You speak of leaders. Of course it affects us all, as well as those who lead; but if things have been said and done which need confession, because brethren have been distressed, would not that necessitate

something being said in public?

G.R.C. I think it would. One is concerned about peace among the saints. Happenings in localities can become disturbing all over the world. But it says, "Of the increase of His government and of peace there shall be no end", Isaiah 9:7.

Ques. May I ask for further help about James 5:16? It says, "Confess therefore your offences to one another, and pray for one another, that ye may be healed". If this is properly pursued, would there not be healing?

G.R.C. I am sure. It is put on a mutual basis there. "Confess ... to one another, and pray for one another". How can we pray for one another without confession? And then James says that, "the fruit of righteousness in peace is sown for them that make peace" James 3:18. Peace has to be on a sure footing. It has to be the fruit of righteousness; and the first step in righteousness, for the sinner -- and we are all sinners -- is to repent and confess our sins, and accept the truth of baptism. That is a matter of righteousness.

Ques. Is the wise woman in Abel an example of this? She stood for the peace and unity of the city, and the disturber of the peace had to be dealt with, and everybody knew it; and the whole city was saved by the faithfulness of one woman. She says, "I am peaceable and faithful", 2 Samuel 20:19. She puts "peaceable" first.

G.R.C. Very good. David too is a great example. Natural wisdom would have advised him to hush the matter up, but he wrote Psalm 51 and addressed it to the Chief Musician. He did not mind young and old knowing about the matter. They could all sing about it.

Rem. I was thinking of David, and how he said, "There is forgiveness with thee, that thou mayest be feared", Psalm 130:4. And do we not understand that he

never repeated a failure or a sin? Having judged it, he never repeated it, or came under the power of it again.

Ques. Is it important that repentance is not merely a change of mind and heart, but a change of mind as to sin, arriving at God's estimate of it?

G.R.C. Quite so. The axe is applied to the root of the trees. We are apt to boast in some trees, but we need to get clear of all the trees. Paul says, as to the new man, that there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, bondman, freeman. Every kind of tree is cut down. We may even boast in our family trees. Everything connected with man after the flesh has been dealt with in judgment in the cross of Christ.

Ques. Paul determined to know nothing among the Corinthians but Jesus Christ and Him crucified. Was he laying the axe to the root of the trees?

G.R.C. I think so. So that, while here it was only applied to the root, in the cross judicially it was carried out. The "word of the cross" brings every tree down.

We ought now to move on to the Lord's activities. John says, "he shall baptise you with the Holy Spirit and fire". John's ministry and baptism prepare for the baptism of the Spirit. It is remarkable the stress which is put upon the baptism of the Spirit by John in each of the gospels, and by the Lord in Acts 1:5.

Ques. Would the baptism of the Spirit, coupled with fire, have in mind the removal of all that opposes practically? At the beginning of Acts all that was opposing was removed through the Spirit of God being active amongst the saints.

G.R.C. Quite so. Fire is prominent in each part of this section. Every tree not producing fruit is cut down and cast into the fire; then, He shall baptise you with the Holy Spirit and fire; and finally, in verse 12, the chaff He will bum with fire unquenchable.

I think this all stands related to Emmanuel, God with us. Our God is a consuming fire. If we are to know God with us, we must accept the action of the fire. First the trees -- whatever kind of man we may think of after the flesh; we have to accept that, judicially, man after the flesh has been cut down at the cross and cast into the fire. Then the baptism with the Holy Spirit and fire would indicate the action of the fire inwardly in purifying our motives.

Ques. You made some reference to immersion in relation to the baptism of the Spirit. Could you say more as to that?

G.R.C. The baptism of the Spirit is an important matter, and fundamental to the assembly. John the Baptist could not tell us about the assembly, but he is telling us about a mighty act of Christ which would bring the assembly into being.

Ques. I was thinking particularly of the word 'immersion'. Does that not stand at the root of many of our difficulties? Does it not involve complete surrender, and our being taken entire possession of by the Spirit?

G.R.C. I believe so.

Ques. It is noticeable that in Peter's first preaching he does not say anything about the baptism of the Spirit. He says, "Repent, and be baptised, each one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ, for remission of sins", that would be water baptism I suppose, "and ye will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit". Do you think that the baptism of the Holy Spirit referred to here, and as recorded, for instance, in 1 Corinthians 12 and 13, is something which we are ready to enter into as confessing our sins, and accepting the moral import of John the Baptist's ministry?

G.R.C. I think so. It seems to await Paul to give the real force of it. It is remarkable how the baptism of the Spirit is linked with water baptism. Here it is put close to it as also in Acts 1 and 2, 10: 47 and 19: 5 and 6.

Ques. So that, as accepting the truth of water baptism, we should be ready for the far greater things to come -- all that is conveyed in, "He shall baptise you with Holy Spirit and fire". Does that not strike you as something which would make it well worth while being transparent and clear about every matter?

G.R.C. Very much so.

Ques. Is not the Spirit necessary to being saved practically from our sins? In Isaiah 12 it speaks about drawing water out of the wells of salvation.

G.R.C. I would say that we need to give more attention to the idea of baptism in connection with the Spirit. The proposal in Acts 2:38 is, "Ye will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit". My impression is that we have thought more of the Holy Spirit as a gift, and what He is as dwelling in us individually, than we have of being baptised with -- or "in" -- the Spirit. In the power of one Spirit we are all baptised into one body. It conveys to me the idea of immersion. Our vessels are filled, of course, if we are immersed; but the point is that we are all to move along in the same current so that we are practically one body -- merged in one body -- in this great current of the Spirit.

Ques. Is that why in Mark and John there is no reference to fire? It is baptising with the Holy Spirit, having in view the positive entrance into this fulness. Is fire added here with a view to bringing out the personnel who would appreciate Emmanuel?

G.R.C. I think so.

Ques. We still want some more help on this matter of immersion. In 1 Corinthians 12:13 it says, "For also in the power of one Spirit we have all been baptised into one body ... and have been given to drink of one Spirit". Does that confirm and enlarge the thought of immersion -- that we should be moving together in what is now called one body?

G.R.C. That is what I thought; so that while the

indwelling of the Spirit, according to Romans 8, saves us from personal sins, it seems to me that the acceptance of immersion in the Spirit saves us from ecclesiastical sins, such as independency. The baptism of the Spirit would save us from all independency in divine things. It means that we would all be moving in the same current, perfectly united in the same mind and the same opinion.

Rem. It continues, "And have all been given to drink of one Spirit".

G.R.C. Yes, there is such satisfaction in it. We should experience it in our localities. When we have a reading meeting in which we have sought to move along bodywise in the waters of Shiloah which flow softly, do we not experience a satisfaction which is indescribably blessed?

Ques. Is not the emphasis on "one"?

G.R.C. I believe so. It means that we are saved from any kind of independency. Independence in divine things is sin; it is unrighteousness. We need to be saved from ecclesiastical sins as well as other sins.

Ques. Would it be right to say that the truth of the one body lies at the root of other things which we enjoy together, such as fellowship and the assembly?

G.R.C. I believe it is fundamental to the truth of the assembly, and all that flows out of that truth. Both the service of God, and assembly administration, depend upon our being in the gain of the baptism of the Spirit, I feel assured.

Rem. Referring to the fire, it says in Isaiah 33:14, "Who among us shall dwell with the consuming fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting flames?"; and verse 17, "Thine eyes shall see the king in his beauty; they shall behold the land that is far off"; and then in verse 22, "For Jehovah is our judge, Jehovah, our lawgiver, Jehovah, our king: he will save us". No doubt this refers to the holiness of God.

G.R.C. It does; and the Holy Spirit being here means really dwelling with the consuming fire, for our God is a consuming fire. In the Song of Songs, "flames of Jah" are spoken of in connection with the jealousy of our Beloved.

Rem. That is the only reference to the name of God in that book.

G.R.C. It shows the importance of virgin affection for Christ, lest we provoke him to jealousy. In this chapter however, the stress is on the Holy Spirit -- not the one Spirit as in 1 Corinthians 12. He shall baptise you with Holy Spirit and fire, linking with the word "great is the Holy One of Israel in the midst of thee". The presence of God is known amongst His own, now that the Lord has gone on high, because of the presence of the Holy Spirit. If the Holy Spirit has His place, ungrieved and unquenched, we shall know the presence of the Lord, and the presence of the Father; we shall know the Godhead with us in Its fulness.

Ques. What is ecclesiastical sin?

G.R.C. I was applying the term to independency in divine things -- moving on independent lines without regard to what the Spirit is bringing out in mutual conditions amongst the brethren, in what we speak of as the temple. It is by way of the baptism of the Spirit that the truth of the temple becomes a reality among us.

Ques. Would it be illustrated in Acts 13 where they were ministering to the Lord and fasting, and the Holy Spirit spoke definitely, showing what liberty He had?

G.R.C. Quite so. The Holy One of Israel was in the midst of them. If the Holy Spirit is free and unhindered among us, and we are moving in the communion of the Holy Spirit, the presence of God is known.

Ques. Do you regard that scripture, "But the Spirit speaks expressly" 1 Timothy 4:1, as characteristic,

and beyond what immediately follows in that scripture? I wondered whether if we knew more of temple conditions there would be less likelihood of matters being differently understood by different persons?

G.R.C. I think if we accepted immersion, we should all be in the holy current of His thoughts. There would be variety, but we should all be moving in the same current -- in the waters of Shiloah which flow softly.

Ques. Do you think that we are often clear about trees, but not so clear of the chaff?

G.R.C. It is just as well to come on to that. The baptism of the Spirit is fundamental to the truth of the assembly; and then John goes on to speak of the way the Lord deals with the personnel, so the threshing floor is brought in. It is necessary that we should all be amenable to the Lord in connection with His operations on the threshing-floor. You are thinking of the chaff, that which attaches to us personally?

Ques. Yes. We might see a tree and recognise that it has to go, but do not small things often cling to us because we think they are of no consequence? Only wheat has value; chaff has no value at all.

G.R.C. So the work of the threshing-floor goes on in order that all that might cause friction and discord amongst the saints might be destroyed. The chaff He will burn with fire unquenchable. Until we get adjusted in our minds, we may admire the chaff, and take a pride in external appearances and natural characteristics. But in the divine estimate these are only chaff.

Ques. Does the fact that it is His threshing-floor insist upon the Lord's own rights in dealing with matters in the assembly?

G.R.C. He has full rights in dealing with the personnel, and all in view of gathering the wheat into His garner, which, in its present application, would refer to the assembly. The threshing-floor entered

into the history of Boaz and Ruth; and the foundation of the house was in the threshing-floor of Oman the Jebusite. These scriptures show how important the threshing-floor is if the assembly is to be secured for Christ and for God.

Rem. Our mixed conditions make the threshing-floor essential for God to be with us -- Emmanuel.

Ques. Does John's reference to the One that is "mightier than I" link up with the Mighty God [El] in Isaiah 9:6; and would it encourage us all to let the Lord have His way in the assembly, no matter how difficult things may appear?

G.R.C. "He that comes after me is mightier than I". It is wonderful to be prepared for that, to let the Lord have His way!

Ques. The first threshing-floor in scripture is connected with a burial -- that of Jacob. Does that indicate that the first man has to go before we can be under the control of the Spirit?

G.R.C. And the word as to the chaff here is very strong, it is "fire unquenchable".

Ques. Was not the Lord Jesus peculiarly delightful to heaven in coming to John to be baptised, in anticipation, really, of his vicarious work? When Daniel confessed the sins of the nation, as if they were his own, he earned a like commendation from heaven -- "thou art one greatly beloved", Daniel 9:23.

G.R.C. Daniel is a great example for us. But the Lord Himself here is unique. Think of such an One as He identifying Himself with this repentant remnant! It links again with Isaiah -- "a remnant shall return". It was the remnant only who got the benefit of Emmanuel at this point, however little they understood it. To get the gain of it fully involved the Lord's actual death, and the accomplishment of the work of redemption; but nevertheless, however little they understood it, God was with them, not only in the person of Jesus, but in the voice out of the heavens, and

in the Spirit of God descending as a dove and coming upon Him. It was a manifestation of the Holy Trinity; God with them in all that that could mean anticipatively, awaiting redemption for the fulness of it to be known.

Ques. The heavens were opened to Him here. While it speaks first in this way of the Lord, is our whole outlook changed as we accept baptism?

G.R.C. The thing to notice is that He was the Object of heaven; the heavens were opened to Him. The Father was engaged with Him; and the Spirit of God, descending as a dove, came upon Him. Heaven was opened because Jesus on earth was the Object of heaven; but when the heavens were opened for Stephen, Jesus is still the Object, but He is in heaven. It does not say that heaven was opened for Jesus to see an object in heaven. Jesus was the Object of heaven; and now, in heaven, He is our Object. Thus heaven is opened for us.

Ques. Might I refer back to Daniel. Is it ever possible for us to take the ground that we are personally free from what has to be confessed? Daniel owned some personal part in what he confessed.

G.R.C. Daniel says, "Confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel", Daniel 9:20.

Ques. Is it important, in matters which disturb the peace of Jerusalem, to own that there is some personal part which each of us has played?

G.R.C. I feel sure that is right. We should, each and all, take matters home to ourselves.

Rem. That is, that everyone of us is humbled.

G.R.C. Yes. That is why the Lord was unique. There was no other sinless One. He is unique in His own perfection, yet in grace He is linking Himself with this repentant remnant; soon, of course, to take all those sins upon Himself at the cross, having none of His own, yet to bear them all vicariously.

Ques. Would the word the Lord selects be important,

"thus it becometh us"? We have spoken as to whether certain things are right or wrong. Is it good to have what is becoming before us?

G.R.C. I am sure it is. We do well to have in mind what is becoming in every situation.

Ques. Would not the contemplation of Christ as the Beloved, and again, in His lowly grace, as the Object of heaven in this passage, greatly help us in this matter of repentance?

G.R.C. Indeed, it would.

Ques. Should we not be very much affected by the greatness of what is contained in these verses? J.N.D. says the Trinity is manifested here for the first time. That is a very marvellous thing!

G.R.C. It was manifested in these circumstances where persons were repenting, confessing their sins and being baptised; and Jesus was identifying Himself with them.

Rem. Showing the immense possibilities which are open to us, if we are marked by confession and repentance!

G.R.C. That is just it. If we are marked by repentance and confession, and the recognition of the truth of baptism, the Lord will be with us; and we shall get the gain of the Spirit and of His baptism; and we shall get the gain of the outshining of the Trinity. What an immense recompense for simply doing what is right, for that is what it is.

Ques. I have been thinking of what is said in Colossians as to Epaphroditus -- "one of you". He merged happily with the brethren, enjoying his relationship in the body, and in the good of baptism. Would he be one who had come into the gain of this revelation?

G.R.C. He would.

Ques. Are we not also left with a great impression of the Spirit, this being the Spirit's own act? The Spirit of God descended as a dove, coming upon Him.

He is a Divine Person, and, in this particular instance, acting of and from Himself.

Ques. Might I ask, as regards repentance, whether we are not inclined to confine repentance to failure? Is it not an attitude of self-judgment which should always mark us continually, and thus open the door for the Lord Himself to do the purging?

G.R.C. I am sure that is right. The Lord refers to a repenting sinner -- Luke 15. Such an one would be amenable to the Lord's hand in His threshing-floor.

Ques. Would the Lord's reference to remission of sins, in giving thanks for the cup in chapter 26: 28 of this gospel show how these exercises are brought right to the very threshold of the service of God?

G.R.C. In chapter 5 the features of the wheat are described by the Lord, Who pronounces those marked by such features as 'blessed' -- that is 'happy'. It is the key of happiness to be amenable to Him and His operations in the threshing-floor.

Ques. Is not the word in Amos 9:9 encouraging? God speaks of sifting His people among the nations, and says, "Yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth".

G.R.C. Very good.

ENJOYMENT

Matthew 5:1 - 9; Matthew 11:25-end; Matthew 12:49 - 50; Matthew 13:44 - 48

G.R.C. We are considering the truth of Emmanuel, meaning God [El] with us, and seeking help as to the conditions necessary on our side if this is to be known and enjoyed. It involves conditions assemblywise, and conditions in the personnel who compose the assembly. These two lines run through Matthew, the assembly being the objective, but the personnel also coming more and more into view, and becoming, we may say, more and more precious as the gospel proceeds. We noticed that Matthew introduced the King, Who is the Beloved; He is Son of David, and Son of Abraham; and according to chapter 1: 17 He is the Christ. The Christ is spoken of as "my beloved, in whom my soul has found its delight. I will put my spirit upon Him". As Son of Abraham He has brought blessing to the nations, and as Son of David He has secured the service of praise. He is the Object of the Father's affections, and He is to be the Object of our affections. The Lord's dealings with us are with a view to securing in us virgin affections for Himself, that the King might have the place He should have with us. And that makes way for us to apprehend what is involved in the expression Emmanuel, God with us -- "they shall call his name Emmanuel". In Isaiah we find that it was the virgin daughter of Zion who apprehended the great truth of Emmanuel, in so far as it could be known in that day. And then, if we are to know God with us we must be saved from our sins. "Thou shalt call his name Jesus" -- Jah the Saviour -- "for he shall save his people from their sins". He has

been into the depths to save us eternally from the consequences of our sins, but we also need present salvation from the power and the love of our sins. John the Baptist foretells the operations of Christ to save us, practically, from our sins. First, the axe is applied to the root of the trees; the word of the cross brings down every tree except the new man. The new man is the only tree bearing good fruit; every other must come down, whether Jew or Greek, barbarian or Scythian, bondman or freeman. Then John refers to the Lord as the One who will baptise with the Holy Spirit and fire. That refers to the formation of the assembly. I have just said that the two lines run through the gospel, and they are here. There is the baptism with the Holy Spirit and fire; and then there is the idea of the personnel being dealt with; He will thoroughly purge His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the garner, but the chaff He will burn with fire unquenchable. All this indicates how we are saved, in a practical way, from our sins. There is repentance and confession; then the acceptance, firstly, of water baptism, which involves every tree coming down, except the new man; and then of the baptism of the Spirit, involving immersion in the flow of the Spirit; and, finally, the acceptance of His threshing floor, involving the destruction of the chaff.

Fire comes into this passage; the fire must do its work. Baptised with the Holy Spirit and fire, would refer to what is inward -- inward motives and thoughts -- so that we are delivered from ecclesiastical sins, especially the great sin of independency -- the moving outside the current of what the Holy Spirit is giving at any time. That sin marks christendom as a whole, and we need salvation from it.

A question was raised yesterday as to Philippians -- "if ye are any otherwise minded". I would point out that the word translated "mind" in Philippians is not the same word as that in Corinthians. "Mind" in

Philippians refers to the bent of the mind, "Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus". Everyone is not equal to Paul in his bent of mind, that is, the bent of mind to go down as to things here, and to press upward as to the calling on high of God in Christ Jesus. He said, "if ye are any otherwise minded, God will reveal it to you"; so that even in our bent of mind, it is the will of God that we should be the same. But, in Corinthians, "mind" means the thinking faculty, another matter altogether. There is no suggestion in Scripture that we should have different thoughts as to the truth, or that we should hold independent opinions and judgments. In 1 Corinthians 1:10 it says, "that ye may be perfectly united in the same mind" -- that is the thinking faculty -- "and in the same opinion". In chapter 2: 16 it says, "we have the mind of Christ", the same word. So that there should be no divergence as to our thoughts about the truth. We have different capacities of apprehension; but there is no idea in Scripture of independency of thought. We are to move in the current of the Spirit as to the truth, knowing what He is going on with, and being fully in it. That is involved in being baptised with -- or 'in' -- the Holy Spirit and fire. Unless this is recognised there will be no virgin daughter of Zion. The basis of virgin response to Christ is our being merged in the Spirit, and moving together bodywise. There will be no response to Christ in virgin character without it, and no assembly response in praise to God. Ecclesiastical independency is a dreadful thing; it is utterly destructive of all that is for Christ and for God in the assembly, and we urgently need to be saved from it.

Then we also need to be saved from our sins in connection with the chaff, which we are apt to be proud of. Chaff may look well, but it is of no use. It brings in discord amongst brethren, personal feelings and so on, but it is to be burned with fire unquenchable.

We are to be amenable to the fire, because we dwell with the consuming fire; and we have to accept it if we are to see the King in His beauty, and to see Jerusalem a quiet habitation. The Song of Songs refers to "Flames of Jah".

But then, in Matthew 3 there was a remnant accepting things, and the Lord identified Himself with that remnant. He was saluted as the Beloved -- "This is my beloved Son". The grace of the Beloved was manifested in that He identified Himself fully with this repentant remnant who were prepared to be saved from their sins. It is our sins which separate between us and our God; but baptism, properly understood separates us from our sins, and the Lord's operations would separate us from our sins practically. He identified Himself with the remnant, and, in principle, they were brought into the gain of Emmanuel, God with us. The Spirit descended as a dove upon Him, and the Father's voice was heard. It was a manifestation of the Holy Trinity.

We proceed now to what is positive as regards the personnel of the assembly, the assembly itself, however, being in mind, as in chapter 5: 14, "Ye are the light of the world: a city situated on the top of a mountain cannot be hid;" and later the Lord speaks of the city of the great king. The assembly is in mind, and the Lord delineates the features which alone are proper to the personnel of the assembly, to those who are the citizens of the city of the great king. These features are seen in the King Himself; and though we may not think so, they indicate the way of happiness, because the word "blessed" here means "happy". It is the way of happiness, because the city of God is the happiest of places, and if we are marked by these features we qualify practically for it. And so here the culmination is in the sons of God. Those who form the assembly are sons of God. Sonship is presented here as a gift, as in Galatians, "that

we might receive sonship"; but here it says, "called sons of God"; that is those marked by these features qualify to be called the sons of God. Through moral features they qualify to be called sons of God. But in chapter 11, in the realm of revelation, they are viewed as babes; in chapter 12, in the realm of service doing the will of His Father, they are viewed as the brother and sister and mother; and in chapter 13 there is an indication, in the treasure and the pearl, of the preciousness to the Lord both of the personnel and of the vessel. I wondered whether these remarks might help us to move together in what is in mind.

Ques. Why do you think that the features in chapter 5 refer almost exclusively to what is inward, and not to outward activities? Does that relate to the inward formation of the personnel?

G.R.C. I think it is in taking character from the King. "We all, looking on the glory of the Lord with unveiled face, are transformed according to the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Lord the Spirit", 2 Corinthians 3:18. That applies to these moral features as well as to other settings, do you not think?

Rem. Yes, and that can apply to all of us, sisters as well as brothers, because all can cultivate what is inward. We may not be privileged to do much of what is outward.

G.R.C. Sisters are very important in that connection, as Philippians shows. The apostle was concerned about strife between two sisters; there may be much chaff with sisters as well as with brothers; but these beatitudes give the features of the wheat as free from the chaff. While they are inward, yet they find outward expression. You can soon tell whether you are in the presence of a person who is poor in spirit. Such a person is despised in the world, but those who are spiritual delight to be in the presence of such an one. You find rest there. All these features should mark us in matters of assembly administration.

The city has that in mind. Are these features in evidence in the way matters are handled? If these features are marking us all, things will be settled very quickly.

Ques. The mourners will be comforted very quickly, will they not?

G.R.C. That is just what I think. At the present time, in some localities, there are difficulties which have extended over some years. They have become "open sores". Isaiah refers at the outset to "wounds, and wheals, and open sores" Isaiah 1:6. Such a condition is not in keeping with Emmanuel. It undermines the health of the whole body on earth. Such a condition should not continue; there should be healing. But how will healing come in? The persons who are capable of helping are those who are poor in spirit. We cannot approach these things in any way other than as poor in spirit and as mourning. And, as you say, if approached in this way surely we shall soon be comforted.

Rem. Paul says in Corinthians, "ye have not rather mourned".

G.R.C. Very good. And then the meek! How important that these things should be approached in meekness, so that personal feelings do not intervene; issues so easily become clouded. Many issues came up in Numbers, but they were all cleared because Moses was never governed by personal feelings; he was very meek above all men that were upon the face of the earth. He never resented what was said against him; he left his matters with God.

Ques. Is it important to see that none of these features and qualities in Matthew 5 can be measured according to man's standard of values?

G.R.C. Quite so. We need the word of the cross to adjust our values; the word of the cross brings down all that the natural man admires, making way for the features we have here -- the features of the King.

Rem. We should thus be encouraged to measure things according to what is spiritual, and not according to what may be characterising the world around us.

Ques. In the world, meekness is looked at as weakness; but when we think of Moses, the meekest man, he was by no means weak, was he?

G.R.C. He was not. It is a great mistake to think that meekness is weakness; meekness is strength, because God is with a meek man. The Lord says, "I am meek, and lowly in heart".

Ques. Does this link with Psalm 45:4, "And in thy splendour ride prosperously, because of truth and meekness and righteousness: and thy right hand shall teach thee terrible things"? I was thinking of truth and meekness.

G.R.C. I was impressed with that yesterday. Do you not think that the order is correct? We have to put truth first; that must come first; but then, the only way to stand for the truth is in meekness. The moment I allow anything personal to govern me, I am out of the conflict in the proper sense of the word; I am only damaging things. So that it is truth and meekness, then righteousness.

Rem. "The meek will he guide in judgment, and the meek will he teach his way", Psalm 25:9.

G.R.C. There is the same order here; first meekness, and then, "blessed they who hunger and thirst after righteousness, for they shall be filled".

Ques. Would the spirit of suffering suggested in this chapter, in the poor in spirit, the mourning, the hungering and thirsting, and then in the persecution and reproach, underlie the necessary approach to adjustment? I was thinking of the way, for instance, in Exodus 17, in which God met the great complaint on the part of Israel. At the striking of the rock He says, "I will stand before thee there upon the rock on Horeb, and thou shalt strike the rock". Do you

think God Himself led the way in suffering, to show that there could be adjustment, and the way it could be secured?

G.R.C. The copper in scripture refers to the outshining of God in the way He has met evil at all cost to Himself. What unmeasured sufferings have been endured!

Ques. Does Leviticus 14 help, in the question of the cleansing of the house where there had been leprosy? You have the death of the bird over running water, referring to the sufferings of Christ, and the offering of Himself by the eternal Spirit. But then, in the cleansing of the house, the cedar wood, the hyssop and the scarlet are all brought in. Does that bear on these verses in Matthew?

G.R.C. That is excellent. I am glad of that suggestion as to Christ offering Himself by the eternal Spirit; and then, you mean that in the cedar wood and the hyssop and the scarlet, every feature of man's glory is brought down?

Rem. And only those features, as seen perfectly in Jesus remain when the cleansing takes place.

G.R.C. You mean features of glory according to God?

Rem. Just so; true dignity, true meekness, and true moral glory in the King.

G.R.C. Very good. And so in Matthew 5 the Lord seems to be setting out abstractly the features of moral glory proper to the citizens of the city of God. No other features are compatible with God's city.

Rem. At the end of Leviticus 15, which links on with this, it says, "This is the law for every sore of leprosy, and for the scale, and for the leprosy of garments, and of houses, and for the rising, and for the scab, and for the bright spot, to teach when there is uncleanness, and when it is purified: this is the law of leprosy", verse 54. I was thinking of the connecting word, "He opened his mouth and taught them".

There is teaching in the chapter, is there not?

G.R.C. That is good. The Lord said, "Think not that I am come to make void the law or the prophets; I am not come to make void, but to fulfil" -- or to fill full -- verse 17. He has thus come to give a fulness to Leviticus. I used to regard the Sermon on the mount, so-called, as contrast; but I am not looking at it that way now; I am looking at it as the Lord giving fulness to the law. The righteous requirement of the law is "fulfilled", or filled full, "in us, who do not walk according to flesh but according to Spirit". The Lord is not doing away with the law in this discourse; He is bringing in the fulness of it; He does not do away with it. "Thou shalt not kill" -- He brings in fulness saying that whosoever shall say to his brother, Fool, shall be subject to the penalty of the hell of fire. Again, for instance, as to adultery. He does not do away with "Thou shalt not commit adultery", He brings in fulness, saying, "Everyone who looks upon a woman to lust after her, has already committed adultery with her in his heart". Christianity is the fulness of everything, including the fulness of the law.

Ques. In Isaiah 57:15 the divine dwelling is said to be, not only in the high and holy place, but "with him that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble and to revive the heart of the contrite ones". Would that show the link between Emmanuel and the poor in spirit?

G.R.C. Very much so. God has come out from His seclusion in unapproachable light -- while He ever remains there -- to dwell with men; and that has to begin at the point you say. The first thing is to furnish what is morally suitable to the high and lofty One, and that verse indicates what is suited. He dwells "in the high and holy place, and with him that is of a contrite and humble spirit".

Ques. And the revival is what we are looking for

in the way of the peace of Jerusalem, is it not? Reviving the heart and spirit of the contrite ones?

G.R.C. That is it. And so there is a glory attaching to the personnel of the assembly. Our brother has spoken of the glory of the King coming into view as leprosy is met; it is seen in the children whom God has given Him. "Behold I" -- He links Himself with them -- "and the children that Jehovah hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel", Isaiah 8:18. People marked by these features are truly signs and wonders. They see God, and they are called the sons of God. They are called that; it is not simply that they receive sonship as a gift, but they are called that, because their moral features mark them out as sons of God.

Ques. Each one resembled the sons of a king. "And he said, They were my brethren, the sons of my mother". Is that sonship testimonially, rather than in privilege according to purpose?

G.R.C. It is indeed sonship testimonially; the peacemakers are called sons of God. We are tested as to whether we are peacemakers. These things are progressive; if the other things are not marking us, we shall not be peacemakers. It is very easy to be warmongers; but, although we have to take up warfare, and meet evil, and all that is against the truth, a Christian is always characteristically a peacemaker. He engages in war, but it is in view of peace. David was engaged in war in view of a reign of peace under Solomon.

Ques. Is it of note that in relation to the feature of mourning, which comes to light in this gospel, we have the mother, Rachel, weeping for her children, and a theme of comfort comes in in Jeremiah, "thy children shall come again", Jeremiah 51. 17? I am thinking particularly of the feminine feeling which comes into the testimony.

G.R.C. Very good. It brings the sisters so

definitely into the matter. It includes us all, in a way, but it shows what a part the sisters may have, "Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted". We have met sisters like that, those who have felt the condition in their locality so intensely that they would not be comforted; they have spent the night in tears. And in localities where such sisters are, issues become resolved.

Ques. Are these features in the seven beatitudes to be seen together in each person, and not found predominantly in one person? We are not to be predominantly meek, or predominantly hungering after righteousness; but all are to be found in balance in each of us.

G.R.C. Certainly. These features should be descriptive of each believer; and I do not think we can have one feature without the others; we must begin with poor in spirit; they are progressive. If we are poor in spirit, we shall be mourners; if we are poor in spirit and mourners, we shall be meek, and we shall hunger and thirst after righteousness, and so on.

Ques. Could one, who may have been disturbing the peace of Jerusalem, become a peacemaker by confessing his sins, with the grand objective in mind of keeping the peace, rather than disturbing it?

G.R.C. I would not deny him that place. One would give honour to anyone who acknowledges what he ought to acknowledge. Peter at Antioch was withstood to the face. He had been in the testimony longer than Paul; he had a great place in Jerusalem, it was no small test; but Peter, no doubt, was poor in spirit, and he accepted the rebuke, and thus maintained the peace. But then, the one who rebuked him would be a peacemaker, too. He had to make war with what was wrong, but he had nothing against the person, no personal feeling. Paul also was poor in spirit, and a mourner, and meek. He

hungered and thirsted after righteousness, so he had to make a stand, but he was merciful; and he had no thought of taking advantage of Peter in order to add anything to himself, for he was pure in heart. And so Paul maintained the peace of Jerusalem. And similarly he did so when he went up to Jerusalem according to Acts 15. The skill with which Paul conducted himself throughout that occasion, keeping himself out of sight, and allowing Peter and James, the local men, to speak, all indicates the way of a peacemaker. He was prepared for war if necessary, but peace was his objective.

Rem. On the way up to Jerusalem, he spoke of the work of God, and caused great joy to all the brethren wherever he went. He did not say a word about the trouble.

G.R.C. That is a good word. Too often troubles tend to become the subject of our conversation.

Ques. Paul was like Christ. All the features referred to in the beatitudes found their perfect expression in the Lord Jesus Himself; and are they not formed in us as a result of contemplation of Christ?

G.R.C. Quite so -- as seeing the King in His beauty.

Rem. That is a marvellous thought. It is thus not a matter of natural effort.

G.R.C. The Lord is the great Peacemaker; He is our peace, Who has made both one, and broken down the middle wall of partition; and by His cross, He has slain the enmity. Think of what it cost the Lord Jesus to make peace!

Ques. According to Colossians 1:19, "in him all the fulness of the Godhead was pleased to dwell, and by him to reconcile all things to itself, having make peace by the blood of his cross". Would that indicate that peace, whether basically in the cross of Christ, or locally, amongst believers, involves the pleasure of the Godhead, the Fulness having set Itself to work

(we may reverently say) to make the conditions?

G.R.C. "God with us" really involves the Fulness, according to chapter 28: 19, which J.N.D. calls "the unfolded fulness of the Godhead". If God were to be known amongst us thus, it involved, first of all, peace being made by the blood of His cross. In the light of this, cannot we seek to assume the role of peace-makers?

Ques. I expect I speak for many in saying that we would like to be peacemakers. I notice that in Genesis 44, Judah takes the blame, with a view to his brethren being set at peace with one another, and with the Lord, typically. Do you think there may be room for more of that spirit?

G.R.C. I do -- each being prepared to take the guilt upon himself. The Lord, in making peace, has not done so at the expense of righteousness. Therefore the order of these verses is interesting. What is right must be maintained. We are to hunger and thirst after righteousness. But then there is mercy; blessed are the merciful; and then the pure in heart. All these things test us in conflict. Then the peace-makers. So that peace is to be based on righteousness. That is where skill is needed, "The fruit of righteousness in peace is sown for them that make peace" James 3:18.

Ques. Should the tears of Rachel be with us today?

G.R.C. I think they should. Let us encourage one another to weep in relation to the sorrows of the testimony; and especially the sisters. How much is effected through the unseen exercises of sisters!

Rem. There is a very interesting note in 2 Samuel 20:19, where the woman in Abel says, "I am peaceable and faithful in Israel". The words 'peaceable' and 'faithful' are both plural, but the word 'I', singular. She speaks, typically, as one who is conscious of what the assembly is, and thus she becomes influential.

G.R.C. Quite so.

Ques. In Isaiah 10:24 God commits Himself to, "my people that dwellest in Zion", and says, "his burden shall be taken away from off thy shoulder, and his yoke from off thy neck; and the yoke shall be destroyed because of the anointing", verse 27. Does this refer to the high level on which Paul operated, so that the yoke of circumcision was lifted, because of the anointing?

G.R.C. That chapter is most interesting, because it describes how they came into the gain of Emmanuel, does it not? The yoke was destroyed because of the anointing; and then there is a hiatus, as though we must stop and think about that. Do not the features set out in the beatitudes secure the power and grace of the anointing amongst us? So that all that is contrary, if these features mark us, will be destroyed because of the anointing. And then the next section of Isaiah 10 is the final thing, "he shaketh his hand against the mount of the daughter of Zion, the hill of Jerusalem", verse 32. God has secured what He is after; there is the anointing, and the daughter of Zion and Jerusalem. When the enemy shakes his hand against the mount of the daughter of Zion, he is destroyed.

Ques. And is it important to see that in verse 26 the scripture goes back to Oreb, as if the Spirit is minded to go back to this thought of sonship in moral worth -- not exactly in the place of purpose, but in ways of God here?

G.R.C. You refer to the scripture where Zebah and Zalmunna say to Gideon, "each one resembled the sons of a king" Judges 8:18? That is very good.

Now I think we ought to move on to chapter 11, where we are in the sphere of revelation. The character which is suitable or comely in the sphere of revelation is that of babes. The things which are revealed are beyond the scope of the wise and prudent. No culture of the human mind would enable us to grasp

one right thought of God, or of the things of God; so that the proper attitude in this setting, is that of babes. The Lord is praising the Father, the Lord of the heaven and of the earth, that He has hid these things from the wise and prudent, and has revealed them to babes. We are not fitted for our place in the assembly unless we apprehend things which can only be known by revelation.

Ques. Do the wise and prudent fall into Satan's snare? "Is it even so that God has said?" 'Ifs' and 'buts' are raised, the fruit of the doubting, speculative mind, instead of lowly, happy absorption of the truth, as babes.

G.R.C. I am sure that is right. "Ye will be as God, knowing", but then what do we know? We know good and evil, and have come under the power of the evil. But now we come to the sphere of revelation, where we are to know things, but all in pure grace on the part of the Father.

Rem. It is not only that the human mind cannot understand, but it is a deliberate act on the part of the Father to hide these things from the wise and prudent.

G.R.C. What a mercy that these precious things are hidden! Otherwise they would soon be desecrated. All that we value most is beyond the intrusion of the natural mind -- a most comforting thing.

Rem. Nevertheless things are being revealed to persons; "and he to whom the Son may be pleased to reveal him", verse 27.

G.R.C. Declaration is complete, whether anyone comes into it or not, as far as I see; but is not revelation a sovereign act to persons?

Rem. Surely! That is, the Lord retires, does He not, into the sovereignty of divine purpose? He is a model for us.

G.R.C. Yes. As we look round on christendom,

and think about results, we may well labour and be burdened. The Lord says, "Come to me all ye who labour and are burdened". He had laboured, and had reproached the cities in which most of His works of power had taken place, because they had not repented; there were no results. But He retires into the sovereign grace of the Father. Because the Father was operating, there would be results; the Father would see to it. The Father is going to have full results; He is going to fill heaven and earth with families, and as the result of sovereign operations which are outside the scope of man's responsibility, although the subjects of them are brought to own their responsibility. The Father's operations will secure full results, and so the Lord says, "Come to me all ye who labour and are burdened, and I will give you rest". We are to find our rest where He found His -- in the Father, and in the assurance that the Father will bring to pass full results.

Ques. Would you say a little more about revelation, because it says here, "hast revealed them to babes", and then presently, "no one knows the Son but the Father, nor does anyone know the Father, but the Son, and he to whom the Son may be pleased to reveal Him". How are we to understand that? Does it mean that the Son is pleased now to carry on the service of revelation sovereignly, where the Father has already begun? Does it become a fuller and deeper thing?

G.R.C. The Father reveals things, and it is a great thing that things should be revealed. The prayer in Ephesians 3, for instance, not only involves the Person of the Christ dwelling in our hearts by faith, but the apprehension of all the scene of which He is the centre. The Father reveals things, but the Son reveals the Father. Both are most important in their place. The Father reveals things. He would give us an impression of the whole setting in which He has placed

His Christ. "All things have been delivered to me by my Father". The Father would give us an impression of the whole scene which centres in the Son. But the Son reveals the Father.

Ques. "He to whom the Son may be pleased to reveal him". Is that divine sovereignty?

G.R.C. It is. The word translated 'pleased' is the will of sovereignty.

Ques. Is the revelation of the Father by the Son a present activity? Or is it something completed into which we are brought?

G.R.C. I think this must be continuous. We know the Father in the Son; the Father's glories shine in the Son, but not everybody who hears the testimony of Christ apprehends the Father. It says, "he to whom the Son may be pleased to reveal him". This is surely an activity which continues.

Rem. I had the same thought.

Ques. Would desire, on our part, for the knowledge of the Father enter into this; and would the Son's sovereignty be exercised in favour of one who had such desire?

G.R.C. The side of desire is not stressed here, but the sovereignty of the Person who reveals, and the receptive state of the persons. A babe is receptive, and has no preconceived notions. A babe is prepared to receive what is presented to it; and that should be our attitude relative to what the Father reveals, and to what the Son reveals.

Rem. The apostle prays, in Ephesians 1:17, that "the Father of glory, would give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the full knowledge of him".

G.R.C. The Spirit was not yet given at this time. Emmanuel was known when the Lord was on earth in His own Person. Those affected by contact with Him would receive impressions of the Father, and see the manifest power of the Spirit operating in the Son. God was there. But now Jesus is glorified, and the

Spirit is here, so that the Person we are immediately in contact with, at the present time, is the Spirit.

Ques. Philip says, "Lord, shew us the Father and it suffices us. Jesus says to him, Am I so long with you, and thou hast not known me, Philip? He that has seen me has seen the Father; and how sayest thou, Shew us the Father?" Do you think that emphasises the fact that we really learn the Father, in His glories, in the Son?

G.R.C. So that we must always maintain an objective view of the Son. We may limit the Lord, in our thoughts, to what He is on our side; but, it seems to me, once the Lord has come in, and we see Him, we must never take our eyes off Him, right through the service. It is a question of looking upon the glory of the Lord in its various features; so that, as the service proceeds, we see the Father's glories shining, and we abide in the Son and in the Father; that is, both are objectively before us, although the Father is the Object of our worship and praise. Then, as we proceed to the worship of God, as such, the Son is still before us, for He is the effulgence of God's glory and the expression of His substance. Also, God's majesty as the King of the ages will ever be seen, as I understand it, in the Son.

Ques. Do you mean, that while we would, to use your word, keep our eyes upon the Son, that would not mean that we are always speaking to the Son, but it liberates us to speak to the Father?

G.R.C. Exactly. And also to speak to God as God.

Rem. In John 16, the Lord said about the Spirit, "He shall receive of mine, and shall announce it to you. All things that the Father has are mine".

G.R.C. Quite so, and if we give the Spirit His place we shall know the things of the Son and of the Father.

Rem. Genesis 24 is very interesting. It is said that

Abraham gave everything to Isaac, and then it says of the servant, "all the treasure of his master was under his hand". In that particular verse the word 'master' is in the plural -- the treasure of his masters was under his hand.

G.R.C. Well, there is no property, speaking reverently, exclusive to the Father or the Son. "All things that the Father has are mine". The Lord says to the Father, "all that is mine is thine, and all that is thine mine".

Ques. Are the words, "learn from me", in verse 29 important? After saying "nor does anyone know the Father but the Son, and he to whom the Son may be pleased to reveal him", the Lord says, "Come to me" and then, "learn from me". There is no limit to what we may learn from Him, is there?

G.R.C. That bears on what we have been saying, that the expression of God to us, and of perfect manhood towards God, are in the Son, and so everything depends on coming to Him. He is the Centre of the system. All divine light shines in Him.

Rem. And He said, "I am meek and lowly in heart"; He draws us to His heart.

G.R.C. Very good.

Ques. And does the inscrutability of the Son, the Father alone being capable of comprehending His Person, give a lustre and glory to the whole setting?

G.R.C. It does. Who but a Person of the Godhead could say, "Come to me", thus making Himself the Centre? No mere man could be the Centre. J.N.D. says, "God, through grace, I know; man, too, I know, in a certain sense; but God become a man is beyond all -- even my spiritual thoughts. Be it so; it is infinite grace, and I can adore. I am sure for my soul's blessing He is both", J.N.D. Collected Writings Volume 9: 299 - 300.

Rem. In Psalm 8 here, the babes and sucklings express their appreciation of the excellence of the

Name in all the earth. Christ exalted and glorified would be in mind.

G.R.C. Yes. The Lord is praising in chapter 11, and in chapter 21 the babes and sucklings are praising. Praise is a great testimony; it silences the enemy. "Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou established praise because of thine adversaries", Psalm 8:2.

SPIRITUAL EMOTIONS

Matthew 16:13 - 18, 21 - 24; Matthew 17:1 - 8

G.R.C. We are considering the truth of Emmanuel, and the conditions necessary if we are to be in the gain of "God with us". We have thought of the Lord coming in as the Beloved, Son of David, Son of Abraham, and the Christ -- the way in which those who have virgin affections for Him come to apprehend His Person. "They shall call His Name Emmanuel, which is, being interpreted, 'God with us'". We saw that the hindrance to this apprehension is our sins, and that chapter 3 shows the way of practical salvation from them by confession, repentance, the acceptance of the truth of baptism with water and of the baptism of the Spirit and of fire, whereby we are merged body-wise with a view to being perfectly united in the same mind and the same opinion, moving along with the Holy Spirit and what He is moving in. It is thus that we are saved from ecclesiastical sins, and only thus can there be an answer to the heart of Christ and of God.

Then the personnel of the assembly need the Lord's attention in the threshing floor to free them from the chaff. The features of the wheat are seen in the seven beatitudes, which end with "Blessed the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God". The personnel of the assembly are to take character from the King; they are sons of God in the testimonial position, having the other qualities mentioned, but ending with the peacemakers. They are to know how to make peace based on righteousness. The work of righteousness is peace, and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever.

In chapter 11 the babes are the same persons. As in the sphere of revelation they are dependent and receptive. The Father reveals things to them, and the Son reveals the Father, and He invites to Himself as the Centre of the great system and the One in whom the Father's glories shine. In chapter 12, He refers to them in the sphere of service as, "my brother and sister and mother"; and in chapter 13 to their preciousness to Him as the treasure. The next parable shows that those who form the treasure merge in the pearl of great price; so that again we have first the personnel and then the assembly. The last parable shows the way they are secured in local companies, the good fish being gathered into vessels.

In the passages now read, the glory of the assembly is brought before us in chapter 16, and the glory of the personnel in the beginning of chapter 17; and in between there is the adjustment of Peter. The setting in which this glorious teaching is introduced is to be noted. In chapter 16: 4 it says that He left them -- the Pharisees and Sadducees -- and the note says it means, "to leave absolutely". He left the wicked and adulterous generation, and warned the disciples to beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees. Then He went away into the parts of Caesarea-Philippi on the remote border of the land. So that the setting is in complete separation from all that is religious according to man, and is governed by the warning as to leaven. The leaven of the Pharisees is hypocrisy, as we are told elsewhere; and the leaven of the Sadducees, orthodoxy with unbelief. But having come to the parts of Caesarea-Philippi, a scene is unfolded which is marked by spiritual emotions, which could not be set free in any other setting -- spiritual emotions, proper to the assembly.

Rem. In chapter 17 we have, "while they abode in Galilee". Are things unfolded in that position?

G.R.C. It is a great mercy to have been brought

into the path of separation, apart from anything which men account of importance religiously. In chapter 11 the Lord retires, and finds His rest in the Father and His sovereign activities; and so He says, "Come to me", assured that there will be those who come. On the same principle we can continue our labours, even though the apparent results are small, assured that there will be results, because the Father is working. There will be those who come to Christ.

Ques. You were referring to emotions. Were you thinking of the ejaculatory character of the Lord's answer in verse 17, for instance, "Blessed art thou", indicating the Lord's own feelings?

G.R.C. Yes I was. The emphatic pronouns stress the emotions. He says, "But ye, who do ye say that I am?" The Lord was looking for some kind of response which would be characteristic of the assembly, "And Simon Peter answering said, Thou" -- an emphatic pronoun which, I believe, denotes on the part of Simon Peter, a spirit of worship -- "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answering said to him, Blessed art thou, Simon-Barjona, for flesh and blood has not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in the heavens", and then, "I also, I say unto thee that thou" -- another emphatic pronoun -- "thou art Peter", as though the Lord's holy emotions were stirred as this kind of response came to light as the result of the Father's revelation.

Ques. Do you think the Pharisees and the Sadducees are shewn throughout the gospel to be without feeling of any kind, and that we are to beware of that in regard of these holy matters?

G.R.C. I am sure that if we allow the leaven, which the Lord warns us against, it will destroy all true spiritual emotions in the assembly.

Ques. Would it be right to say that the Lord now has a vessel in which His holy emotions Godward are to find expression -- "In the midst of the assembly will

I sing thy praises"; and further that that vessel should be replete in His hand administratively? The city is said to have the glory of God. Is it to be effective here for God in the holy emotions of Jesus Himself?

G.R.C. How much entered into the Lord's mind and heart at this time! He Himself was now apprehended, appreciated and responded to, as the Christ, the Son of the living God. It is this apprehension and appreciation which qualifies persons to be living stones in the great structure. And then, as you say, He would have in mind all that the assembly was to be for His God, both in praise Godward and in administration manward.

Ques. Why does Matthew present "the Son of the living God"?

G.R.C. Is it not over against the deadness of Judaism and human religion? It is the Son of the living God, and I think it indicates that praise is primarily in mind. The assembly is also the vessel of administration, but the primary thing in Psalm 22 is, "Thou that dwellest amid the praises of Israel". Administration will be right if the praises are secured.

Rem. In that regard, one has been thinking of the references to virgin voices -- see "Alamoth" in the heading of Psalm 46 -- as referring to the development of pure feelings and emotions. Virgin voices are mentioned several times in the scriptures. I wondered if Peter's voice is really the expression of a virgin voice?

G.R.C. It is. Psalm 45 is the Song of the Beloved -- the King; and then Psalm 46 is to the chief musician -- of the sons of Korah, upon Alamoth, a song. So that Psalm 46 is a song on virgin voices.

Rem. In Psalm 68:24 and 25, "They have seen thy goings, O God, the goings of my God, my king, in the sanctuary. The singers went before, the players on stringed instruments after, in the midst of maidens" -- it is the same wording, Alamoth -- "playing on tabrets".

G.R.C. So that you think the idea of virginity runs right through the service?

Rem. I thought so. And does not 2 Corinthians 11:2 show that the thought of virginity belongs to the whole local company -- men as well as women? Paul says, "I have espoused you unto one man, to present you a chaste virgin to Christ".

G.R.C. It does. The hundred and forty-four thousand in Revelation 14:4 are also said to be virgins.

Rem. One was thinking of that. They follow the Lamb whithersoever He goes.

G.R.C. It is a question of chastity -- pure affections for Christ, and thus for God.

Ques. Are you suggesting that the apprehension of the Person of Christ here is in keeping with virgin affections? In chapter 13 a good deal is said about understanding, and the Lord challenges the understanding of the disciples in this chapter. In chapter 13 He said, "Have ye understood all these things?" I wondered whether discipleship involves a course of instruction, gradually building up our intelligent understanding; so that when the Lord speaks, as He does here, while it entails revelation it also means that He had before Him some formed material. Is that right?

G.R.C. I think so. Chapter 13 is very important, "Have ye understood all these things?" It covers the whole chapter, but would especially, no doubt, bear on the treasure and the pearl. The Lord has a treasure here, and, for the joy of it, He sells all that He has to buy that field. Then there is the completed matter, the pearl. "He went and sold all whatever he had and bought it". How important to understand what the treasure is to Christ, that is, what such persons as Peter are to Christ; and then what the pearl is to Christ.

Ques. In that connection, why do you think that the reference here is to Simon-Barjona?

G.R.C. It is all to help the virgin daughter of Zion. Zion is the effectuation of divine purpose on the basis of sovereign mercy. Why should a man like Simon-Barjona be brought into such favour? Who was he? A Galilean fisherman, who later, when denying the Lord, cursed and swore! Why should he be in this matter? "Flesh and blood has not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in the heavens". How we can thank God that the trees have all been cut down; and that the choice is not based on natural selection, but on the basis of divine operations in sovereign love and grace!

Ques. And does the Lord take delight in each of the personnel of the assembly? He says, "Blessed art thou!"

G.R.C. What a marvellous thing! "Blessed art thou, Simon-Barjona"! Simon-Barjona merited no blessing at all. He is like Paul who says he "before was a blasphemer and persecutor, and an insolent overbearing man". What right had Paul to be in the assembly? He said, "mercy was shewn me"; and Simon-Barjona received mercy. I believe a sense of mercy enters into the constitution of the virgin daughter of Zion; it helps us as to virgin affections.

Rem. The only women mentioned in the genealogy in Matthew 1 are those who are objects of outstanding mercy. In the normal way they would not have been in the royal line.

G.R.C. Very good. Another woman is introduced in chapter 15: 26, where the Lord says, "It is not well to take the bread of the children and cast it to the dogs. But she said, Yea, Lord; for even the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from the table of their masters. Then Jesus answering said to her, O woman, thy faith is great. Be it to thee as thou desirest". That is the kind of material which the Lord delights to bring into the assembly -- those who recognise their utter nothingness.

Ques. Zion stands for sovereign mercy, does it not? "This one and that one was born in her", Psalm 87:5. Is there variety in unity, and mutuality, too, in the work? It is the glory of Christ to put a unique divinely given stamp upon each one, and yet it is among such that true mutuality is found to work out the great thoughts of God.

G.R.C. Is that the way the treasure merges in the pearl? The treasure is distinctive; Simon-Barjona became a distinctive person through the sovereign work of God. But then there is the merging, so that we have one pearl of great value.

Ques. Following the treasure and the pearl is the parable of the seine. Is it not essential that, in evangelical ardour and work, what is good should be found and put into vessels? This is not being done in current popular evangelisation.

G.R.C. Exactly. That parable refers to the way things have to be worked out in local companies. The vessels would refer to the local companies, and it is a question of gathering the good into vessels.

Ques. Referring back to the parable of the sower, it is said of the seed which is caught away that they understood not, but the good ground which brings forth the fruit is spoken of as he who hears and understands the word. Is not understanding a most essential thing?

G.R.C. It is most important. There is great ignorance in christendom, terrible ignorance; and it means that the truth of the assembly is never arrived at, and thus the Lord is denied His portion, and God His. Understanding is essential.

Ques. Does that lead to accuracy in the truth, "For this reason every scribe discipled to the kingdom of the heavens", etc.? It is said of Ezra that he was a scribe and a priest. Those two things make for right feelings and emotions, and also right speaking. The scribe would insist that everything which is said and

done should be accurate.

G.R.C. Accuracy is of the greatest importance if we are to come into the gain of what the assembly is as a vessel of response to Christ and to God.

Ques. Are emotions suggested in Psalm 45 -- the welling up of the heart, and then the pen of a ready writer, suggesting accuracy?

G.R.C. So that the fact that our emotions are stirred to the very depths should not make us inaccurate; we should not be carried away by feelings in such a manner as to cease to be accurate.

Ques. Could I ask what you understand the Lord to mean when He speaks of "this rock".

G.R.C. I think it refers to the revelation of Himself in the souls of the saints. It is Himself, but known through the Father's revelation to Peter, and souls are brought into it in the power of the Spirit. The truth expressed in Peter's confession is just what is needed in the souls of those who form the assembly. First they need to apprehend Jesus as the Christ, and then to apprehend Him as the Son of the living God. The apprehension of Him in those two ways qualifies for part in the assembly.

Rem. The assembly cannot be overthrown by hades gates.

G.R.C. Christ, the Son of the living God, cannot be overthrown; and the Father's revelation of Him to Peter, which is made good to the hearts of His saints by the Spirit, cannot be overthrown. It is on this rock the Lord builds His assembly.

Ques. In 2 Chronicles 3:1 it says that, "Solomon began to build ... on mount Moriah, where he appeared to David his father, in the place that David had prepared in the threshing-floor of Ornan the Jebusite". Would it be there that the son, that is Solomon, began to build in a place where genuine material had been prepared? David had suffered there, and had come to an end of himself.

G.R.C. And did not the Lord handle Peter in that way? Was he not the subject of the Lord's work in the threshing-floor?

Rem. I think so. Here he is immediately free to bring out what the Father had revealed to him.

Ques. Would you mind amplifying what you had in mind as to the Christ, the Son of the living God?

G.R.C. I think the assembly stands related to the Christ. "I speak", Paul says, "as to Christ, and as to the assembly". It is fundamental that the assembly has virgin affections for Christ; she is His complement. But then, she is also the vessel of praise to God, which is specially in mind here; and so he goes on to say, "the Son of the living God". That is, if the Lord secures the assembly in virgin affections for Himself, it is all in view of using that vessel in the praises of His God. He is the Son of the living God; His thoughts are always in the direction of His God. The saints are called, "Sons of the living God" Romans 9:26. In their measure they correspond with Him.

Ques. Might there be a link with the word, "Jesus answering said", here, and in chapter 11: 25, where praise is referred to?

G.R.C. I think in chapter 11 He is answering the conditions of darkness which were around. In His perfect manhood He meets, in the spirit of praise, what was outwardly the darkest of situations. But I think here the Lord is moved; His holy emotions are brought into play as Peter says, with emphasis on the 'thou', "thou art the Christ". That is what He had been waiting to hear, and now it was out; "thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God". He had been handling this material, and the point had arrived when the material was ready for the Father's revelation; and the Father had revealed the truth to Simon-Barjona in such a manner that he could express it in the spirit of worship. I believe Peter is a worshipper of Christ here, and it is as such that we come into the assembly

in a vital way. And so it says, "Jesus answering said to him, Blessed art thou, Simon-Barjona"; and no doubt we may say His heart was also moved towards His Father, as He said, "flesh and blood has not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in the heavens". Then He said, "I also, I say unto thee, thou art Peter". That is the reciprocal side. He had named the Lord; now the Lord was naming him, "thou art Peter". There was exultant joy in the heart of the Lord, for He saw assembly material; "thou art Peter, and on this rock I will build my assembly". Here was a living stone, one of the sons of the living God, true assembly material from the standpoint of the praise of the living God.

Rem. And when the best comes out, the gates of Hades are immediately referred to as doing everything within their power to thwart and overthrow what God had wrought.

G.R.C. Yes. The gates of Hades would refer to the calculated, planned attacks of Satan to silence praise in the assembly. He has succeeded in Zion; praise is silent in Zion, but he can never succeed in the assembly. I think we can see the force of that from Hezekiah's remarks in Isaiah, where he says, "For not Sheol shall praise thee ... they that go down into the pit do not hope for thy truth. The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I this day". Peter was a living stone, one of the sons of the living God, and praise in the vessel which is composed of such can never be silenced.

Ques. By way of extension, he cannot silence the babes and sucklings. Is that the earnest that there will be recurring generations in the assembly wherewith to swell the service of God?

G.R.C. That is very fine, because, far from silencing the babes and sucklings, they silence the enemy. "Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou established praise, because of thine adversaries, to still

the enemy and the avenger". Praise, in the spirit of triumph, in the face of all the enemy's opposition, is a most effective weapon; the enemy has nothing to say in the presence of it.

Ques. In speaking of emphatic pronouns, would you say a word on the Lord using it of Himself, "and I also". Is that Emmanuel?

G.R.C. It is. It would suggest, do you think, His equality with the Father?

Rem. "I also, I say unto thee" -- another Divine Person speaking.

G.R.C. "He who has built all things is God", we are told in Hebrews; and the builder is the Son. The Lord Jesus says, "on this rock I will build my assembly".

Ques. Is it necessary for us always to bear in mind that the assembly first comes into view here in the setting of what is due to Christ, and what is due to God? Is that always what the assembly is, characteristically?

G.R.C. There are three great ministries, as I understand it. There is the declaration of God. The declaration of God, and of His name, is by the Lord Himself; He is the Declarer. No apostle could be the declarer. The Son has declared God, and declared His name. Secondly, there is the ministry of the gospel to bring men into the gain of the declaration, so that they might know God as declared. Finally, there is the ministry of the assembly, which is the line of response. The ministry of the assembly brings to pass the vessel in which there is adequate response to Christ, and adequate response to God as declared.

Ques. Would you say what distinction there is between what we are considering now, and Paul's word as to God being "pleased to reveal His Son in me"?

G.R.C. I think that was to equip Paul in his gospel

testimony. The ministry of the gospel includes sonship; and God was pleased to reveal His Son in Paul, so that sonship was set out in him. He was a living example of what he was preaching. But I think the revelation to Peter is in view of the assembly. It is more objective. "Thou art the Christ". Paul had this, of course, in full measure. It is a great thing to get an objective view of the greatness of Christ as Man. He is the Christ, and He is the Son of the living God, and we are worshippers of Him.

Ques. Do we need John's writings particularly to get this objective presentation? I wondered about the close of his gospel, where it says, "these things are written that ye may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing ye might have life in his name".

G.R.C. John presents the Christ in the early part of his gospel, and the Son of God later. Paul generally presents the truth in the reverse order. He begins with the Son of God, and ends with showing us the magnificence and glory of the office the Son of God holds as the Christ; Ephesians is full of the Christ. We need both John and Paul.

Ques. Do you think that, "the Son of the living God", and the building upon that in the soul of Peter, and in the souls of the saints, is really the answer to all the attacks of Hades; and that, as this is livingly maintained, God has a warrant to leave saints here in spite of all the attacks? Has He not a certain pleasure in leaving saints here in the midst of darkening conditions, if there is reality, and genuineness, and virgin affections for Christ? Nevertheless, Hades gates are perhaps nearer than we sometimes think!

G.R.C. They attack Peter immediately after this, do they not?

Rem. Yes. Peter comes under the shadow of darkness.

G.R.C. Therefore we have to maintain great

vigilance, because, in moments of greatest privilege, we are liable to fall a prey to the enemy and his power. It is not beyond possibility that, however much we may serve the Lord, anyone of us may become a tool of Satan for the time being; and the more esteemed the person is, the greater the damage he will do if this is not checked at once.

Ques. Are not the gates of Hades discovered and exposed in 2 Corinthians 11 where Paul speaks of Satan transforming himself into an angel of light, and his "ministers also transform themselves as ministers of righteousness whose end shall be according to their works"? In chapter 12 he refers to vital assembly material -- "I know a man in Christ".

G.R.C. That is very good. We have constantly to keep in mind that Satan's emissaries transform themselves as ministers of righteousness. Satan will not find much service for a man who has not any attractive features. The way he can best lead the saints astray, is by getting control, for the time being, of a leading brother. Peter was the leading brother.

Rem. What a contrast between, "fair appearance in the flesh", which is so attractive to all of us, alas! and the stability and glory of, "a man in Christ", carried up as far as the third heaven.

G.R.C. Very true. As to Satan's emissaries, one would not link that term with any brother in the normal way. But if Satan uses a man to turn Christians away, he will use a very plausible man, one who says things which sound very good. But the fact is, Satan may also obtain control of any brother, even most unexpectedly; and here he gets a point of vantage with Peter. No doubt his fellow disciples would consider his remark an excellent one.

Rem. The importance of our minds comes into the matter. Peter says in his epistle, "having girded up the loins of your mind". The loins of his mind were not girt up here, were they?

G.R.C. "Thy mind is not on the things that are of God, but on the things that are of men". The exhortation in the epistle shows that he had judged himself in that relation.

Rem. How important it is for us all!

G.R.C. We need to speak carefully, and beware, each one of us; for no one is exempt from the possibility of coming, momentarily at any rate, under the power of Satan; and the point is to check it at once. The Lord checked it at once, otherwise it would have done damage.

Ques. Do you think we are in the greatest danger when we have touched a very high point?

G.R.C. I do. There is danger, because of the love and esteem in which persons are held, of things not being checked at once, but the Lord gives us an example here. Peter was a leading brother, but the Lord checks him at once. Sometimes we let pass a remark which is not really true or right, because of the person who said it. Now the first of the apostles was saying something here, but it was not right; and the Lord did not let it pass. He checked it at once. In Leviticus 19:15 it says, "thou shalt not respect the person of the lowly, nor honour the person of the great" in matters of judgment. What the Lord had said about Peter earlier in the chapter indicates that, through divine grace, he was great; nevertheless the Lord does not pass over what he said here.

Ques. What would you say about the severity of the language the Lord uses? While recognising the uniqueness of anything the Lord might say, I was wondering whether the readiness to trace something to its source immediately saved Peter and saved the brethren.

G.R.C. That is just what I would think. The more straightforward and faithful we are, the more likely we are to save the brother.

Ques. The passage referred to in Leviticus goes

on to touch that, does it not? "Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thy heart; thou shalt earnestly rebuke thy neighbour, lest thou bear sin on account of him" Leviticus 19:17.

G.R.C. Just so. It is true love to do so. It says, "Thou shalt not hate thy brother". Instead, in love, you rebuke him. The Lord was acting in perfect love here. He said, "Get away behind me, Satan; thou art an offence to me".

Rem. Paul also, when he rebuked Peter later, was acting in love.

G.R.C. Peter is a great example for us, because he was a man who failed more than once, but he was recovered quickly every time.

Ques. Is it not in that way that love covers a multitude of sins?

G.R.C. I think so. Peter's recovery here is so rapid that he is on the mount in a few days.

Ques. How does what you are saying bear on ministry? If a thing is said which we feel is not right, should it be brought before the whole company at once?

G.R.C. I think so, if we feel it is something that is really contrary to the truth. We do not want to make a man an offender for a word, and we need to avoid contention. It needs spiritual discernment to detect when there is something which should be challenged. The Lord, no doubt, was the only One who discerned that Satan was there, and that he had obtained control of Peter for the time being, using even Peter's affection for the Lord to get a foothold.

Ques. We might have said that after such a failure Peter could never be on the mount; but that is not the Lord's way, is it?

G.R.C. It is not. Someone might have said to the Lord, It is only six or seven days ago that Thou saidst to Peter, Get away behind me, Satan; now Thou art taking him on to the mount, to the place of the greatest privilege.

Rem. There is nothing said at the time as to the result of the Lord's rebuke, but his being taken up on to the mount would show that it had been effective. The less that need be said about it, the more thorough would be the vindication.

G.R.C. Complete recovery, yes!

Ques. Do you think that Peter learned that it was the activity of Satan? Did he not readily discern the activity of Satan with Ananias and Sapphira, which was not discerned by others?

G.R.C. Very good. Peter discerned there what perhaps no one else did; so that our very failures, if we get right, are going to be a help to us, are they not?

Rem. And to the brethren.

G.R.C. Yes. "When once thou hast been restored, confirm thy brethren" Luke 22:32.

Rem. Though Paul rebuked Peter, Peter speaks of him afterwards as our beloved brother Paul.

G.R.C. Yes. So it increased love between them.

Ques. Would the secret be in the next verse, "let him deny himself, and take up his cross"? Would that be the practical application of the cross, which is the end of the man who could say that kind of thing?

G.R.C. We need to take it to heart that it was from that time that Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go away to Jerusalem, and suffer many things, and be killed; and then He says, "If anyone desires to come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me" Matthew 16:24. It means that, in the light of the assembly in its glory, it is not suitable that we should be here in any other character than as crucified to the world, and the world to us. We ought to be carrying our cross; but we are not doing that if we are allowing chaff, or any admiration for the trees which have been cut down. It seems to me this suggests a man who has been completely delivered.

Rem. I was noticing that it is his cross, as if Peter had made it his own.

Ques. The Lord takes this matter up so seriously with Peter, because what he said would have negated what he had just testified in verse 16. Is that the effort of the enemy now -- to detract from what the Spirit is saying, His living voice for the moment?

G.R.C. Exactly. And the living voice for the moment was something very testing. What had been coming out earlier was something very exhilarating; but coupled with the exhilarating light of the glory of the assembly, there is this that goes with it, that if we are to be in keeping with the glory of the assembly, we are to accept our cross here.

Ques. I would like to ask as to Colossians 2:20 - 22, "If ye have died with Christ from the elements of the world", and then the reference to the "appearance of wisdom in voluntary worship, and humility". Is it not significant that the voluntary worship and humility is with an appearance of wisdom? Is it not worship according to man's own mind, and not according to the truth?

G.R.C. Quite so. I think that would link with the leaven of the Sadducees and Pharisees.

Ques. Will you give us a word on the opening verses of chapter 17?

G.R.C. They set out the glory of the personnel of the assembly. We have spoken of their moral features, but now we see them in glory. "Jesus takes with him Peter, and James, and John his brother, and brings them up into a high mountain apart. And he was transfigured before them. And his face shone as the sun, and his garments became white as the light; and lo, Moses and Elias appeared to them talking with him". I think we also need to look at Peter's own version, because he does not mention Moses and Elias. According to Matthew, Moses and Elias were talking with Him; but Peter, the recovered man, was so fully recovered, that he received a remarkable impression of this occasion for he speaks in 2 Peter 1:16

of "having been eye-witnesses of his majesty. For he received from God the Father honour and glory, such a voice being uttered to him by the excellent glory: This is my beloved Son, in whom I have found my delight; and this voice we heard uttered from heaven, being with him on the holy mountain". That was the impression left in Peter's soul as time went on, that they were with Him. It was not now Moses and Elias. Peter had suggested three tabernacles, but Moses and Elias were now completely gone from his vision; now it was Christ and "we" -- the personnel of the assembly.

Rem. And he says the excellent glory, and the holy mountain, but he cannot find a word to express the voice, "such a voice ... we heard ... being with Him".

Rem. And there is no "hear him" in his final description.

Rem. It is a collective matter. He does not say 'which I heard'.

G.R.C. No, "which we heard" and the "we" is emphatic, "this voice we heard ... being with him on the holy mount". What a scene of glory that was -- the Lord's face shining as the sun! We have said already that all through the service we are to have our eye on Him, His face shining as the sun, and His garments white as the light; but then there is something else, there is the cloud of glory. A bright cloud overshadowed them. The Father is distinct in His personality, though He is expressed in the Son; and He has His own way of making His presence felt. A bright cloud overshadowed them. It is undefined, but we, through grace, know something of what it is to be made conscious of the Father's presence. And then Peter says, such a voice -- the Father's voice.

Ques. Does the expression, "eyewitnesses of his majesty" refer to the place the Son has in the Deity in relation to the service of God?

G.R.C. Yes. His majesty.

Ques. Might this be before the apostle James when he was beheaded?

G.R.C. Quite so. How it would strengthen him for martyrdom!

LITTLE CHILDREN

Matthew 17:24 - 27; Matthew 18:1 - 23, 35; Matthew 19:3 - 6, 13 - 15, 20 - 21

G.R.C. We are engaged with the truth of Emmanuel, God with us, and the conditions essential if that truth is to be realised, both assemblywise, and also in relation to the personnel of which the assembly is composed. The passages we have read refer to both. The end of chapter 17 bears on the personnel, not now viewed in glory, but nevertheless having great dignity put upon them in the testimony here as sons of God; and the beginning of chapter 18 shows the spirit which should mark them in matters of administration. In chapter 11, in the sphere of revelation, they are babes in receptiveness and dependence; but in matters of administration they are to be little ones who believe in Christ, according to the Lord's word in chapter 18: 6, "these little ones who believe in me". Thus the prophecy in Isaiah 11:6 is fulfilled, "a little child shall lead them". This prepares the way for Isaiah 12, "Cry out and shout, thou inhabitress of Zion; for great is the Holy One of Israel in the midst of thee" -- the truth of Emmanuel realised. The result of a little child leading is that, "they shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain". A little child claims the resources available in the One in Whom he believes, the One described in Isaiah 11 who has the spirit of wisdom and understanding, etc. -- the Lord Jesus Himself. Following that, there is another view of the personnel -- "thy brother". If one sins against me, I am not to forget that he is my brother.

The Lord then introduces the assembly as the trustworthy vessel in which He confides, the vessel,

indeed, which heaven confides in to such an extent that He says, "Verily I say to you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on the earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatsoever ye shall loose on the earth shall be loosed in heaven". Prior to this He says, "Tell it to the assembly". All this indicates what the assembly is to Christ, and what it is to heaven, regarded as a trustworthy vessel down here. The verses in chapter 19 were suggested, because, flowing out of the truth of the assembly, both as the great vessel of praise in chapter 16, and also as the vessel of administration in chapter 18, the Lord shows that we must have a right outlook on marriage, on children and upon young people, an elevated outlook, such as was never known under the old economy. We are to be governed by God's primary thoughts, and that is most important, because otherwise the personnel become disqualified. For instance, Paul makes it clear in writing to Timothy that no one who has a lower standard of marriage than this is qualified to care for the assembly of God.

Ques. Is it significant that while we have the son of David and the son of Abraham, the Christ, Jesus, and Emmanuel in chapter 1 of the gospel, in chapter 2 we have the little child mentioned eight times? It seems to be a governing feature of the gospel, and links with what you have quoted from Isaiah. The great administrator is presented as the little child; in Revelation He is a little lamb. Is that thought always linked up with what is administrative? I think the Lord is referred to as the 'Lamb' twenty-eight times in Revelation, the diminutive word, "lambkin" being used.

G.R.C. It may be there is an allusion in the early part of Matthew to the need of the mother, the maternal element to protect this feature among the saints, so that it may be preserved. True maternal affections, which appreciate the spirit of a little child and foster it, are much needed, because it can so easily be crushed out. The question immediately preceding

in chapter 18 is: "Who then is greatest in the kingdom of the heavens?"

Rem. Saul's name was changed to Paul.

G.R.C. Quite so; Paul meaning 'little'. He is a great example of a little one who believed in the Lord Jesus. He always took the place of a little one.

Rem. At the time he is first called Paul, it immediately says, "filled with the Holy Spirit".

G.R.C. I think one makes way for the other. Paul speak of himself as "less than the least of all saints", and he always remembered that he was the chief of sinners. Do you not think that if persons are maintained in that outlook as to themselves, the Holy Spirit has scope with them, and He will fill them?

Rem. Herod calls Jesus "the child", but the Spirit of God calls Him "the little child" eight times.

Ques. Is it noteworthy that the little child in Matthew 2 is always mentioned before His mother? It concentrates our thoughts on the greatness of the Person Who was there, although in this form, outwardly, of the little child.

G.R.C. The Lord indicates in chapter 18 the importance of this matter as applied to the saints, "Whoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, he" -- it is the emphatic he -- "is the greatest in the kingdom of the heavens".

Ques. Do you mean that the spirit of the little child makes way for the Holy Spirit?

G.R.C. And for the Lord. It makes way for the Spirit, because, in our dispensation, our immediate relations are with the Spirit. So that the attitude of a little child makes way for the Spirit, but the Spirit makes way for Christ. At the beginning of the chapter Jesus called a little child to Him, and set it in their midst; but in verse 20 He says, "where two or three are gathered together unto my name, there am I in the midst of them". I think we have to read those two verses together, because two or three truly

gathered together unto His name would be marked by this spirit; otherwise they would not be gathered together unto His name. His name is so great that those truly gathered unto it would be there as little ones who believe on Him and count on Him, and He would be in their midst. Also, the Father's ear is open to such, for earlier He says, "if two of you" -- that is two people of this kind -- "shall agree on the earth concerning any matter, whatsoever it may be that they shall ask, it shall come to them from my Father who is in the heavens". So that, if the spirit of the little child marks us, God will be with us in the full sense of the word.

Ques. Is there a link between sonship in the close of chapter 17, and the spirit of the little child? I was thinking of Isaiah 9:6, "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given".

G.R.C. Yes. We ought not to pass by the end of chapter 17, because I think the greatness and dignity of the place grace has given us here in testimony would be a lever in our souls, enabling us to take the place of little ones in matters of administration. The Lord's word brings out the liberty of the sons of God. What marvellous grace that He should say "me and thee"! The sons of God are under tribute to no one; we are both sons and heirs of God; all things are ours; Paul says, "as having nothing, and possessing all things". We are to move in the consciousness of this, and it will give a dignity to our bearing. We are under tribute to no one; but then we can, in liberty and magnanimity, render to all their dues, lest we offend. We should not offend anyone; we are to be great enough and wealthy enough to meet every claim.

Ques. Peter failed to confess who Jesus is, did he not?

G.R.C. Peter was not equal to it. We cannot help having affection for Peter, because we learn so much from him and his failures. Here he fails to say what

he might have said about the Lord. This was temple tribute. What an opportunity it was to confess that the One present was the One whose house it was!

Ques. Would the spirit of the little child always meet a challenge or question like this, by referring the matter to the God who is "with us"? Does this passage illustrate the danger of answering such a question without reference to God?

G.R.C. It does.

Ques. Is not the appreciation of our calling our salvation? It has been said, "our thoughts seldom rise above service; God's thoughts never fall below sonship".

G.R.C. And our thoughts should not fall below sonship. We are sons on the mount, in glory; but we are still sons down here, in testimony. The Lord says, "me and thee". If we go through this world with a sense in our souls that we are sons and heirs of God, what a dignity it will give us in meeting questions which arise in the testimonial sphere, particularly questions about Christ.

Ques. Do you think the question in chapter 17 was answered in the way it was because of the question among the disciples themselves -- "Who then is greatest?" Was there personal feeling and rivalry existent among the disciples which brought in weakness?

G.R.C. It is remarkable that it says, "in that hour".

Ques. I was just going to remark on that very thing. And would the expression the Lord uses in verse 4, "this little child", bring something substantial before us? It says in verse 3, "Unless ye are converted and become as little children", as if that were a simile the Lord was using to express what He means. Then in verse 4, "this little child", becomes more personal. Does it allow for a certain formation in our own souls?

G.R.C. It is a great thing for someone in a locality

to exemplify the truth, so that the Lord can say, "this little child".

Ques. Paul sent Timothy to Corinth. Would there be delineated in him the features of a little child?

G.R.C. The difficulty at Corinth was this very question -- who should be the greatest. There were rival leaders, great ones, who were really putting a snare before the true little ones in Corinth; and such were in danger of having a mill-stone hanged about their necks, and being sunk in the midst of the sea. But Timothy would alter the balance of the whole situation, because he would be one who, in a special degree, was formed in this feature, one whom the Lord could point to, "Whoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child". Paul was a little one, and Timothy was his child.

Ques. Would Solomon be another example of that? He is in the place of sonship, but he says, "I am but a little child"; and then he asks for an understanding heart, "to judge thy people, to discern between good and bad"?

G.R.C. Solomon is another excellent example. It was this very matter which he was thinking about -- administration relative to so great a people; and he says, "I am but a little child". It was just what God was seeking. He was just the man to whom God could supply wisdom. If we are in any other spirit, we are not prepared to accept the wisdom from above; we think we know but a little child does not think he knows anything, he is dependent entirely on another, the One in whom he believes.

Ques. May I ask about Corinth again? The leaders, to whom you have referred, were placing a snare; but, in addition, were there not other persons who were supporting the leaders, and who even had put Paul in such a position? Some were saying, "I am of Paul". He had to say later, "that ye may not be puffed up one for such a one against another". Is

that not also a feature which we have to guard against?

G.R.C. Wherever this principle of greatness comes in, it leads to party spirit. It is the great snare of christendom; man is in evidence. Leaders, with eloquent words, moving in the power of their own wisdom, have cast snares and brought in offences affecting the whole of christendom; and judgment is about to overtake such and the system they have built up. But I do not think anyone in Corinth was actually making a party of Paul. He says in chapter 4: 6, "Now these things, brethren, I have transferred, in their application, to myself and Apollos, for your sakes". He did not want to name the local leaders. My own impression is that there were few at Corinth prepared to range themselves behind Paul; and any such would not be party men, for Paul never was a party man. The Corinthians were governed by local leaders; but Paul, in his wisdom, did not want to name them. And so he says, "I am of Paul, and I of Apollos, and I of Cephas, and I of Christ", 1 Corinthians 1:12. He names persons who could never be charged with partisanship; and then he refers to Christ Himself, all to show the utter folly of their ways. Paul never formed a party; Cephas never formed a party; Apollos never formed a party. The true greatness of the apostles was manifest in that none of them ever formed a party, but always led disciples after Christ.

Rem. So we shall always be safe in receiving one such little child.

G.R.C. Such an one is not a party man, so that in receiving him you receive Christ.

Ques. Did not J.N.D. say that he would never be one of a party, not even to support the truth, because the truth needs no party support?

G.R.C. He would have nothing to do with a party. As you say, the truth needs no party; in fact the moment you form a party you fail to support the truth. The only thing we recognise is the one body -- no

party, no inner circle, no outer circle, but one body.

Ques. Does what you were saying last night about feeding on the shew-bread bear on this, and does it account for the distinction which came to light between David and those with him, and Saul? David's, men collected round him because of his moral worth. Saul offers promotion to people, and appeals as to whether anybody is sorry for him, 1 Samuel 22:8. Those who eat the shewbread, and thus view the saints according to God, would always be with the Lord in the conflict, as over against the kind of man who is puffed up and gathers round him those who are sorry for him.

G.R.C. Quite so. Saul, head and shoulders above his brethren, was the antithesis of David, and also of Solomon, who said he was a little one. If we fed on the shew-bread we could never be party men, because the shew-bread today is "we being many are one bread, one body".

Ques. Do the early chapters of the Acts provide an example of the way administration was carried on in simple dependence on the Lord? The introduction: of Paul caused no rivalry.

G.R.C. How smoothly administration proceeded because of the simplicity of the apostles as little ones who believed in Christ! They had a great position given by God; but they did not stand on their dignity, because they recognised that they were entirely dependent on the Spirit and on the Lord.

Ques. What would you say as to eldership? Certain brothers with that spirit might act in confidence, but would they have to take care that there is no party or sectional feeling?

G.R.C. Eldership implies experience with God. Not everybody has that experience. But even so, the more real experience a man has with God, the more he will be marked by the spirit of the little child.

Rem. Immediately before David invites Jehovah

to enter into His rest, he speaks of his soul being as a weaned child -- Psalm 131:2.

G.R.C. Very good. A weaned child is referred to in Isaiah 11 -- a weaned child and a sucking child.

Ques. Does the party line tend to rob God of the glory of sonship, so that He says in Isaiah 45, "Ask me ... concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands"?

G.R.C. Party spirit is a dreadful thing. It is the opposite of recognising the baptism of the Spirit, and His presence and authority. It means that men lead disciples after them, on factional lines; and the truth of the assembly, practically, is lost. Therefore Christ's portion is lost, and God's portion is lost.

Ques. Would this childlike spirit have a uniting effect?

G.R.C. It would, because a little one who believes in Christ directs attention to the One he believes in, and not to himself.

Ques. Is Paul's attitude towards the Galatian brethren very affecting? Having rebuked Peter, he appeals to the saints in a motherly spirit, saying "my children of whom I again travail in birth, until Christ shall have been formed in you".

G.R.C. It would encourage that motherly element amongst us.

Ques. Do we see this illustrated in Solomon in the two women who were brought before him? The true mother shows how she appreciated the little child, and then it says, "her bowels yearned over her son". Would those maternal feelings, and the appreciation of sonship, all help in regard to administration?

G.R.C. Paul really brought to light the true mother in the assembly at Corinth, and that would involve the little child being reinstated in the midst; and, coupled with that, of course, the truth of sonship would be enjoyed.

Ques. Is it to be noted that Paul speaks openly of

the house of Chloe as the source of his information as to the divisions at Corinth? Does not the party spirit thrive where there is secretiveness instead of transparency?

G.R.C. Party principles involve secrecy and underground movements which are to be greatly deplored: they destroy fellowship. Underground methods were used at Plymouth in disseminating Mr. Newton's teaching among people who were thought to be sympathetic, in order to extend the party. Such methods should be unsparingly judged.

Ques. 1 Corinthians 11:19 says, "For there must also be sects among you, that the approved may become manifest among you". Why was that?

G.R.C. I think that was because of their state. It should not be necessary, in a normal meeting, to have sects and divisions; but, in a meeting like Corinth, these were necessary that the approved might become manifest. The approved would be those marked by the spirit of a little child, and Timothy would greatly help by his example.

Rem. A little child would have a great appreciation of the assembly. A weaned child has been referred to (Psalm 131:2).

G.R.C. In Isaiah 11:8, it says, "the sucking child shall play on the hole of the adder, and the weaned child shall put forth its hand to the viper's den". On the line of what is spiritual we should maintain the idea of the sucking child, and derive everything from Christ; on the line of nature, we are weaned, we are independent of natural resources.

Rem. The appreciation of the assembly in its "mother" character would mark anyone who has this spirit. He would abhor all party activities.

G.R.C. A party man is never weaned, he relies on the party.

Rem. So that a weaned child, Paul, put forth his hand to the viper's den in regard to the deadly thrust,

of the foe, so poisonous, in regard to Galatia. He did not take counsel with flesh and blood; he was a weaned child; and what a warrior he was in the presence of the viper!

G.R.C. He was a thoroughly weaned child, able to go alone if necessary. He said, "no man stood with me, but all deserted me ... But the Lord stood with me", 2 Timothy 4:16, 17. There was a weaned child -- "The Lord stood with me, and gave me power". Paul was not dependent on a party; on the other hand he was always a sucking child, because he was always dependent on the Lord; all his resources came from the Lord, by the Spirit.

Ques. How might we be in danger of offending a little child?

G.R.C. By bringing in the idea of bigness. As to actual children, few are willing to accept that they are little. The idea of bigness starts early.

Ques. Why does it say, "humble himself"? It seems to be a definite attitude and action to be taken.

G.R.C. Quite so. It is an important word. We are to be definite and energetic in humbling ourselves, because the moment we think we are big we become a snare and an offence.

Ques. Does Philippians 2 help in that connection, "each esteeming the other as more excellent than themselves", and then the presentation of the Lord Jesus, who eclipsed every other in His downward movement?

G.R.C. I think so. They were to be "harmless and simple, irreproachable children of God in the midst of a crooked and perverted generation".

Ques. In verse 16 of Matthew 18 you have three working together to save a brother; that would not be a party?

G.R.C. In matters of sin against one another, our outlook is to be governed by "thy brother". Tender affections enter into it. It is not police court procedure, it is not a question of seeking to get a conviction;

it is "thy brother", and you want to save him, as the Lord says in the previous verse, "So it is not the will of your Father who is in the heavens that one of these little ones should perish".

Ques. Is not that seen at the end of Judges in the terrible sin of Benjamin? After two failures to meet the situation, they come before God at Bethel, and they say, "Shall I yet again go out to battle against the children of Benjamin my brother". They seek God, and the honour of God about it.

G.R.C. Quite so. We are not to allow sin upon our brother, as it says in Leviticus 19:17. We are, in any case, to rebuke him. "God with us" involves that we cannot pass by sin; but there is to be no personal feeling allowed, even though he has trespassed against us.

Ques. Is the thought of reproving to bring out the matter, and declare it as it is in the presence of God?

G.R.C. I think so, provided we are governed by "God with us".

Rem. The "thy brother" attitude would enable us to do it frankly and affectionately, but faithfully.

Ques. Would that be why you get the apostle and the brother linked together in the two epistles to the Corinthians?

Ques. And was that why Paul refrained from going to Corinth immediately? "To spare you", he says.

G.R.C. It was on account of love's calculation that he did not go at once; he gave them time to get right first.

Ques. Would you answer the question about the two or three who go to see the brother, as to whether that would be forming a party?

G.R.C. I think you can answer that.

Rem. I should say it was love's way -- not a party at all. They would really go in the spirit of little children, would they not?

G.R.C. I am sure. I think we need to see, if I

may use the phrase again, that this is not police court procedure; we are not trying to get a conviction.

Ques. "Thou hast gained thy brother" is never found in a police court, is it?

G.R.C. No, exactly! I cannot see anything here to suggest that the person concerned is seeking a conviction; it is the last thing he wants. But, if the brother will not judge the matter before God, there has to be a conviction, for the thing must be settled.

Ques. Is the approach made with the objective in mind that the one approached shall not be lost, but find his part in liberty?

G.R.C. Exactly. It is not the will of your Father who is in the heavens that one of these little ones should perish. On this account the Son of man would leave the ninety and nine on the mountains, and go and seek the one that had gone astray. That is the Divine attitude to the person; that is how the Lord is regarding the matter; and so also is the Father; but then, how am I regarding it? He is my brother.

Ques. Does, "my Father who is in the heavens", bear on the matter? Judah became conscious of the face of the father toward Benjamin, and when it came to the great issue he was affected to move rightly.

G.R.C. It was in that setting that Judah prevailed among his brethren, and of him was the Prince.

Ques. Is it not rather striking that it does not say, "my Father", in verse 14, but "your Father"?

G.R.C. Very good. Our Father's outlook should be our outlook.

Ques. Is this consistent with the principle of first seeking to cover?

G.R.C. "If thy brother sin against thee, go, reprove him between thee and him alone. If he hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother". Nobody else hears anything about it; the matter is covered. "But if he do not hear thee, take with thee one or two besides, that every matter may stand upon the word of

two witnesses or of three". There is no question of a party; it is a question of evidence; but then there is the opportunity given to listen to them. If he listens to them, those three will not speak about the matter any more. "But if he will not listen to them, tell it to the assembly". The Lord trusts the assembly in the final issue to do what is right.

Rem. And when it does come to the assembly, adequate witness brings it there.

G.R.C. Yes. "And if also he will not listen to the assembly, let him be to thee", that is to the one he has sinned against, "as one of the nations and a tax-gatherer". So that that section deals primarily with individual trespass or sin one against another, and how it is met. But then the Lord takes the opportunity, in verse 18, to give a general statement as to the assembly. The procedure in verses 15 - 17 cannot be applied in every case, because they deal with a case of sin against a brother. If, for instance, a brother has sinned in the holy things of God, and the sin is generally known, we should not adopt this procedure. The gathering would take the matter up as a meeting, and the person would be visited from that standpoint.

Rem. In John 20, which is similar, yet with a difference, the Lord is stressing His confidence in the persons, and they go forth, so to speak, as representing Him. Is that the way in which the Lord reckons that things would normally be done by persons who are here in trustworthy representation of Himself?

G.R.C. Yes, so that John provides for our day. What is set out as to the assembly in Matthew is carried out today by persons walking in the light of the assembly, and the Lord commits Himself to them. It has often been said that John 20:23 is like a blank cheque; "Whosesoever sins ye remit, they are remitted" -- there is no limit; and "whosesoever sins ye retain, they are retained". It shows the folly of anyone who is not right saying, 'I have been to the

Lord -- about the matter and He has forgiven me'. It is not put that way at all. The Lord does not say, Whomsoever I forgive ye forgive. He says, "Whosesoever sins ye remit, they are remitted".

Ques. And does the expression "two of you" here, emphasise the dignity of the persons who come into the 'you', namely that they are two of the assembly characteristically?

G.R.C. So that they are not a party; it is two of you.

Ques. Would "my name" in chapter 18: 20 involve Emmanuel -- the greatness of the Person, and the glory and moral features which attach to Him?

G.R.C. I would say it is a comprehensive expression. "Where two or three are gathered together unto my name". "They shall call his name Emmanuel". We are in the presence of El, the mighty God.

Ques. Why does the Lord say, "Whatsoever ye shall bind on the earth" and not 'Whosoever'?

G.R.C. It may be the idea of the sins being bound on the person. I do not know. Later the Lord gives an instance of binding in chapter 22: 13, when the King says to the servants, "Bind him feet and hands, and take him away". Literally that is future, unquestionably. But the King comes in now, sometimes, to see the guests, and the wedding garment would indicate whether we are really fit for fellowship or not. That would have a present application.

Ques. Does not what has been said about the brother make more arresting still Paul's word in 1 Corinthians 5:11, "If anyone called brother be" such? The attitude set out in that verse is to be adopted in faithfulness towards such?

G.R.C. Quite so. If sin is not judged it ends brotherly relations.

Ques. May I ask further as to the question of binding? Does scripture contemplate the possibility

of the matter being fixed in relation to a particular person?

G.R.C. Fixed for the time being. But in chapter 22 it is fixed permanently; that is the final thing. Nevertheless it should be a present exercise to have on the wedding garment. In the East all the guests wore a garment provided by the host, so that the bridegroom alone was distinctive. It was not so at Corinth, where men were in evidence, and Christ was in the background. Men were displaying their fancied glories, instead of glorying in the Lord. If we all wear the wedding garment, the Lord alone will be exalted in the assembly. If the King comes in, He has to say to those who are out of accord with that; He says, "Bind him feet and hands". Of course in the parable it is final.

Ques. Then the way back, by way of repentance, would always be open?

G.R.C. It would; and in John that is put first, "Whosesoever sins ye remit they are remitted".

Ques. May I refer further about that? Did not J.T., Sr. speak of 'capital sins', and is not sin of that character contemplated in 1 Corinthians 5 where the apostle makes no reference to any possibility of repentance with the man for the moment?

G.R.C. The saints at Corinth had no option. It was the Lord's commandment through Paul that they should withdraw from that man. The Lord's name required it.

Ques. You mean that even had he been repentant at the time of the assembly meeting, the public position and the Lord's name required withdrawal?

G.R.C. Yes, the question of repentance is not referred to. Something had arisen which necessitated putting away, or, as we should say, in the light of 2 Timothy 2, withdrawal.

Rem. There is a very interesting letter of C.A.C.'s bearing on that matter, where he says that if there is

repentance the assembly would thankfully take note of it; and yet the person, as repentant, would own the rightness of the assembly withdrawal, and it would pave the way for a speedy restoration.

G.R.C. I am sure it would. And now, just a word as to chapter 19. After all that has come out in chapters 16 and 18 as to the assembly, the necessity for the personnel of the assembly to be governed by God's primary thoughts as to marriage will be apparent. We must preserve the standard of marriage amongst us in integrity. The Lord says, "Have ye not read that he who made them, from the beginning made them male and female, and said ...". He does not say, Have you not read Genesis 2. He brings God into the matter. The One who made them said it; and the integrity of marriage is essential if assembly truth is to be worked out amongst us. Then a right outlook on the children is essential; the disciples needed adjustment. We are to bring the children to Jesus by way of baptism, and to have them amongst us in the assembly, because it is in the assembly that we bring them to Jesus in the fullest sense. Then our outlook on young men and women should be right; the great point with young people is to encourage them to heed the Lord's words, "Come, follow me". That is the outlet for young people as they grow up -- the greatest privilege that a young man or woman could have is to follow Christ.

GOD DWELLING

Matthew 28:16 - 20; Isaiah 12:2 - 6; Ezekiel 43:2, 5 - 7, to "for ever", 10 - 12; Ezekiel 48:35, last phrase

G.R.C. In arriving at the climax of our subject, we have to bear in mind that the truth of Emmanuel, God [El] with us, means not only that He is with us in the sense of support, but also as dwelling. He is in the midst, as it says in Isaiah 12:6, "Great is the Holy One of Israel in the midst of thee"; and in Ezekiel 43:7, "this is the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever". We know that in such passages the assembly was primarily in the mind of the Spirit, although the immediate reference is to Israel. The assembly is the only vessel adequate to be the immediate dwelling place of God. It says of the holy city that, "The throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it" Revelation 22:3. The assembly is His abode for ever.

The setting is important, both as to where the passage in Matthew 28 takes place, and also as to the state of homage which marks the disciples, in spite of the fact that there was hesitation with some. We also have to note the Lord's statement that all power had been given to Him in heaven and on earth; for it was in that setting He declared the Name, bringing it in in relation to baptism, "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptising them to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit". This great Name -- the greatest of the names of God -- implies the Fulness. The idea of fulness enters into this Gospel. At the Lord's own baptism there was a manifestation of the Trinity, the Fulness coming into view as He identified Himself with the repentant

remnant; and now, in relation to Christian baptism it is baptising persons to, or into, the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. J.N.D. says as to this expression that Christians are, "brought into distinct known relationship with or in the unfolded fulness of the Godhead", J.N.D. Collected Writings Volume 32: 376. He goes on to say that the Name of Matthew 28:19 "is the most formal statement of the Christian revelation as replacing Judaism". "God with us", in the full meaning of it, involves the Fulness; and this equips us to serve in the presence of the Greatness. The fact that God has revealed Himself in a Name implying such love and nearness in no wise detracts from His greatness. Indeed those who enter into the gain of the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit appreciate His greatness more than any. We have thus, in our minds, to bring forward the great names of God, such as Jah and El, into the Name of Matthew 28:19, remembering that this is that God, to Whom belong those names which express the greatness and majesty of Deity. But as we understand and get the gain of the fulness expressed in the Name of Matthew 28:19, we are equipped to serve in the presence of the Greatness. Hebrews uses the term "greatness", and Colossians "fulness", both expressions being undefined, because they are beyond definition in creature language. Great names, as we have noticed, are used in the beginning of this Gospel -- Jah the Saviour, and Emmanuel -- but at the close we have the greatest of all names involving the Fulness. The word in Isaiah 12:6 is, "Great is the Holy One of Israel in the midst of thee". This gospel indicates how conditions are brought about suited to the Holy One, and I believe that is why the word Holy is attached to the Spirit in this great Name. We might have thought that it should have been left out, as being a relative expression, but the stress is on the fact that the God, who is in the midst of His people, is the Holy One, and our immediate contact

with God is in the Holy Spirit. Then the Lord refers to teaching, for teaching is essential if we are to be in keeping with this great Name, and thus to get the gain of it. That links with Ezekiel, where they were to be shown the pattern of the house. In Matthew the Lord has shown us, "the form of the house, and its fashion, and its goings out, and its comings in, and all its forms, and all its statutes, yea, all the forms thereof, and all the law thereof", Ezekiel 43:11.

Ques. Had you anything in mind as to the mountains in Matthew in relation to what you are saying? Psalm 125:2 says as to Jerusalem, "Mountains are round about her, and Jehovah is round about His people". The scriptures we have read mention mountains, and in Isaiah 2:2 it says, "And it shall come to pass in the end of days, that the mountain of Jehovah's house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and shall be lifted up above the hills; and all the nations shall flow unto it", and then, "Come, and let us go up into the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths".

G.R.C. That is excellent, because the suggestion is that the mountain of Jehovah's house is the most elevated of all. There are mountains round about, but the most elevated of all is the mountain of Jehovah's house itself; and so in Ezekiel 43:12 it says, "This is the law of the house; upon the top of the mountain all its border round about is most holy".

Ques. Could we say that in the first mountain in chapter 5 we have the teacher and the teaching, and in this passage the taught; and they are to continue that kind of teaching till He comes again?

G.R.C. Quite so.

Ques. When you refer to serving in the presence of the Greatness, have you in mind the expression in the Hebrew epistle, "the right hand of the greatness",

chapter 1, and "the throne of the greatness", chapter 8?

G.R.C. Yes. The service of God proceeds in the presence of the Greatness, as Hebrews indicates.

Ques. I should be glad if you would give some further help on the word "fulness". It is used in relation to the Godhead; but also in other connections, such as the fulness of the earth, the fulness of the law, the fulness of the nations.

G.R.C. The expression, "fulness of the earth" helps us to its meaning, because the earth, in itself, is inscrutable. I suppose that is realised more now by man than it ever has been. But we can appreciate and appropriate the fulness of the earth; not that we can compass even that, for there is much that is inscrutable. For example, we cannot understand how the earth brings forth; yet we can see, admire, appropriate and, in so far as we are able, get the gain of its fulness. As regards the Godhead, Godhead, as such, is completely beyond our range as creatures; but then scripture speaks of the fulness of the Godhead. It speaks of the Fulness by itself in Colossians 1:19; but in Colossians 2:9 it says, "In him dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily", referring, I suppose, to what has come within our range in Christ. Although we cannot compass it, it has come within our range, and is thus for our appreciation and appropriation as far as we are able.

Rem. I have enjoyed that thought of the fulness of the earth. It is intended by the Spirit to help us into these deeper thoughts as to the fulness of the Godhead. Does it come within our range in the sense that there is something which is expressed, and which we, by the Spirit, can take account of. Are we intended to understand it, as far as the creature can by the Spirit?

G.R.C. I think so.

Rem. It is not the thing essentially, but the outshining of it.

Ques. In that connection is it important that there

is no break between the fulness and what is inscrutable? God, who has come within our range so far as the creature can know Him, is the same God who stretches out beyond us in His greatness.

G.R.C. Exactly. J.T. Sr. wrote a letter in 1943 [Letters 2: 311] in which he said that the fulness of the Godhead would include what is inscrutable; but that there is no hard and fast line between what is revealed, and thus available for appropriation, and what is inscrutable. There must always be a creature limit, but one has noticed that scripture, in using these expressions, does not put a ceiling on them. It is, as it were, left open, because it is a question of how far we can go, how far we are marked by spirituality. In the power of the Spirit who dwells in us, and in company with Christ, Who is also a Person of the Godhead, how far can we go? We have to admit that there always must be a creature limit, but does scripture definitely give us what that limit is? Are not expressions such as "the fulness", "the greatness", and "the expression of His substance" purposely left undefined? Also, in Ephesians 3:12, the "access" which we have is undefined.

Ques. The word, "absolute" has been used among us for a long time, and I wonder if you would say something about it. I am referring particularly to the footnote to Genesis 1:1, 'Elohim, the plural of Eloah, the Supreme. It is Deity, God in the absolute'. I believe I am right in saying that several years ago we used this term, as helped by J.T. Sr.; but then he gave us further help by pointing out that God in the absolute was God relative to nothing but Himself. So that in no sense can we reach God in the absolute. Is that right?

G.R.C. As I understand it, while the name "Elohim" is near the absolute, it cannot be called absolute because it refers to God relative to creation. It is not God simply relative to Himself, but as the supreme Object of worship in His creation. Possibly the

nearest name to the absolute in scripture is "Jah", which implies self-existence. Jehovah is the same word, enlarged to bring in the idea of time; that is, He who is and who was and who is to come; but Jah seems to relate to God in His self-existence. Close to that is "El", which seems to refer to God in His essence -- the One Who stands in His own strength. There is a difference between self-existence, and essence or essential being. Self-existence must mark the Supreme Being, though it is beyond the power of the creature to apprehend. But essence, or essential being, though it includes more, must include what God is in His nature and character. So the Lord is said to be the expression of the substance, or essential being of God. God's essential being is beyond us in itself, but His nature and character have come into display in the Son.

Rem. While that is so, it is still true, "who only has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen, nor is able to see", 1 Timothy 6:16.

G.R.C. That ever remains true; so that God is not only inscrutable, but invisible. He is, "the King of the Ages, the incorruptible, invisible, only God", 1 Timothy 1:17, and that emphasises our complete dependence on the Son. All the fulness of the Godhead dwells in Him bodily. "Bodily" involves visibility.

Ques. Does it mean that in all that applies to the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit we are introduced into the realm of Divine revelation?

G.R.C. Quite so.

Ques. Does Psalm 48 link this up when it says, "Great is Jehovah, and greatly to be praised", and then later, "According to Thy name, O God, so is thy praise"?

G.R.C. Exactly. And those who know this Name, which involves fulness, nearness, love and intimacy,

can give God the glory due to Him in greatness and majesty, as can no other company. This is that God: this is Jah and El. That is the marvel of it, that great self-existent God, the God who in His mightiness can stand in His own strength, He has come out in this way, in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, in order to be intimately known by men, and to dwell with them eternally.

Rem. So that the Psalm ends, "This God is our God".

Ques. Does it enhance the mediatorship of Christ, and the whole mediatorial system, that we can come, in any sense, into such knowledge?

G.R.C. It does. The invisibility of God greatly enhances the mediatorship of Christ. He is so entirely essential to us in order that we may come to the full knowledge of the truth. God's will is that men should be saved -- this links with Matthew 1:21 -- and come to the full knowledge of the truth -- see footnote to 1 Timothy 2:4; and that involves that, "God is one, and the mediator of God and men one, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself a ransom for all", 1 Timothy 2:5. "God is One" is a magnificent expression which belongs to Christianity. It implies equal honours to the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, as I understand it.

Ques. Does, "the name" in Matthew 28:19 emphasise that "God is One"?

G.R.C. I think that. It is one Name -- "baptising them to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit". So that in the final phase of the service it is a question of equal honours, for "God is One".

Ques. Is it a comfort to us that, before the word "fulness" is used in Colossians 1, we have the expression, "image of the invisible God" Colossians 1:15; and, before the word "greatness" is used in Hebrews 1, we have, "the effulgence of his glory and the expression of his

substance" Hebrews 1:3? Does the mediatorial setting of the Lord Jesus enable us to appreciate better these words "fulness" and "greatness"?

G.R.C. I am sure that is right. It is in the Son that God is expressed. Revelation 21:5 and Revelation 22:12, 13 show than even the greatness and majesty of God find expression in the Son. In so far as the majesty of the King of the Ages is seen, it is seen in the Son.

Rem. There is a double reference in this chapter to the fact that they did Him homage -- Matthew 28:9 and 17. The Person of Christ was there as an Object of worship, and that comes before the revelation of the Name.

G.R.C. That is an important point. It is as in the spirit of worship to Christ, and as subject to Him as the One to whom all power has been given in heaven and on earth, that we are in a state to get the gain of the Name which is declared.

Ques. It says that the disciples were to go into Galilee, "and there", He says, "they shall see Me". Does that have a bearing on this?

G.R.C. The importance of seeing the Lord cannot be too much emphasised, because everything which has come into expression relative to God, and to His mind, is set out in Christ. Thus, for us, everything depends on seeing Him.

Ques. When the Greeks came and said, "Sir, we desire to see Jesus", His reply was, "The hour is come that the Son of man shall be glorified". Does this imply that, if we are to see Christ as the expression of God, His ascension and the gift of the Spirit are essential?

G.R.C. The accomplishment of redemption, the glorification of Christ and the gift of the Spirit are involved in this commission which the Lord gives at the end of Matthew. It is on that ground that persons can be baptised to -- or into -- the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

Ques. Could you say a word as to "fulness" in Ephesians 3 -- "that ye may be filled even to all the fulness of God"; and then, "to him be glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus"?

G.R.C. I believe what J.N.D. said is right, that this Name is "the unfolded fulness of the Godhead". We are to be filled into all that is involved in this Name. It will lead to an ascription of glory to God in the assembly in Christ Jesus.

Ques. Would you say that "fulness" always implies what comes out of it? Just as the fulness of the earth, the crops and so on, which we can take account of, come out of the earth, so we may, in this holy way, speak of what comes out of Christ -- the fulness of Christ -- and, equally reverently, what comes out of God?

G.R.C. We thus come to know what God is in His nature and character.

Ques. "Having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this which ye behold and hear", Acts 2:33. Have you a manifestation of the Trinity there? And would the pouring out be an initiation into the Fulness?

G.R.C. I think it is remarkable that Peter presents the Trinity in an administrative way in his first gospel address. Undoubtedly his converts were baptised to this Name.

Rem. They were to take on the truth by immersion into the very best.

G.R.C. They were. It is a great point that, at the outset, we are brought into the very best.

Ques. When you said what you did about Peter's converts being baptised, are you wanting us to understand that, "to the Name", would be in addition to what he said in Acts 2:38. "Repent, and be baptised, each one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ"?

G.R.C. Quite so. Some seem to have had difficulties about this name being used in worship, because

it has been said that it is a testimonial name. But it is not primarily a testimonial name. The primary testimonial name is the Name of Jesus Christ the Nazaraean. That stands at the beginning of Acts. "For neither is there another name under heaven", Peter says, "which is given among men by which we must be saved". The primary testimonial name is Jesus Christ -- the Ark, carried in testimony -- but, the moment persons submit to that Name, they are baptised to the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

Ques. Is that why at the end of Luke, it is "in his name"? You do not get there the bringing out of the Father's Name, or of the Trinity, as we say, but the name of Jesus.

G.R.C. Yes. "In his name" implies His authority. All authority is given to Him in heaven and on earth. The only authority I have to baptise anybody to the great Name of Matthew 28:19 is the authority of Christ.

Ques. Do you not have in Acts three occasions where we are baptised 'to'? In Acts 19 they were baptised 'to' the name of the Lord Jesus, and in Acts 10 they were baptised 'in' the name of the Lord.

G.R.C. You can understand the authority of the Lord being stressed in Acts 10, because the Gentile was coming in. What right had Peter got to bring the Gentile in? It was, 'in the name of the Lord'.

Ques. Whereas in chapter 19 would it be to the name of the Lord Jesus in the full light of the mystery?

G.R.C. I think so. Christians are therefore baptised to the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and to the name of the Lord Jesus.

Ques. Would there be some suggestion of it in the cloud? They were all baptised to Moses in the cloud and in the sea -- 1 Corinthians 10:2?

G.R.C. Quite so. The cloud would imply "God with us", would it not?

Rem. J.N.D. makes it quite clear that we can always draw near to God in worship by the way He has come out to us in revelation in the three Persons.

G.R.C. Quite so. We can only approach the Father thorough the Son and by the Spirit. And then, when we are addressing God as God, we still need the Son and the Spirit on our side, although we are not occupied with Them as on our side. I think this passage helps, because the Lord says, "I am with you all the days", that is, He is with us in support; but, coupled with that, He presents Himself in Deity, in referring to the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Occupation with Himself, along with the Father and the Spirit, in Deity, does not alter the fact that He is with us in support, and sustaining us in the position.

Rem. The more we are in the good of a thing the less it need be referred to.

G.R.C. We approach the Father through the Son and by the Spirit. But then, as in the gain of the support of the Son and of the Spirit, we are also free to take an objective view of the Godhead as such, the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. I suggested the passage in Ezekiel 43, because it seems to help as to this. It says, "And behold the glory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east ... And the Spirit lifted me up, and brought me into the inner court; and behold, the glory of Jehovah filled the house. And I heard one speaking to me out of the house; and a man was standing by me". The Spirit lifted him up, and a Man was standing by him; but, as thus supported, he is occupied with the glory of the God of Israel. For us, this would mean the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, viewed objectively.

Ques. Such scriptures help us to understand much, do they not? In John 20, the Lord Jesus, the Son, is speaking, and yet says, "my God, and your God". To the mind instructed by the Spirit that presents no

difficulty; for, as you say, in Matthew 28, the Lord Jesus was there speaking as a Man visibly before them, and yet, at the same time, presenting Himself as having part in Deity. It helps to resolve matters, and open our minds, so that we apprehend this great objective view, involving the Trinity.

G.R.C. Exactly. The Lord was there as a risen Man, standing with them, and He said, "Behold, I am with you all the days"; that is, He would always be with them as a Man supporting them. But, at the very same time, He drew attention to Himself in Deity, presenting to them an objective view of the Godhead. He does not says, 'the name of the Father, and of Myself and of the Holy Spirit'. It is an objective view -- "the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit". While, in grace, the Son and the Spirit are always available on our side to help us, yet the help is such that we are given power to take an objective view of the Godhead, and to worship accordingly.

Rem. So at the close, "the Son also himself shall be placed in subjection to him who put all things in subjection to him, that God may be all in all".

G.R.C. Exactly. We must not limit the Son to the place of subjection, because He is included in the term 'God' -- "that God may be all in all".

Ques. And is not that the meaning of Peter's word, "a new heaven and a new earth in which dwells righteousness"? Is not everything fully adjusted in regard to God?

G.R.C. Quite so. God has His place as Head above all. That is righteousness.

Ques. Is there some significance in the fact that the glory came from the way of the East? -- Ezekiel 43. I wondered whether we should carry in our minds at all times, in the objective view of God, the way that the Fulness has been pleased to reconcile all things to Itself.

G.R.C. We need to keep that always in mind, because it touches our affections. Colossians 1:19 is a most remarkable passage. "In him all the fulness of the Godhead was pleased to dwell, and by him to reconcile all things to itself, having made peace by the blood of his cross". Think of that in relation to Psalm 22 -- a Man on the cross, saying, "My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me?" It is a remarkable contemplation!

Rem. It would provide substance to be drawn upon in praise and thanksgiving.

G.R.C. Yes. We need much help, because the relationships into which we have been brought -- union with Christ, and sons in the presence of the Father -- are to qualify us for our part in the great hallel -- i.e. praise -- to God; because that is where the greatest scope is -- in praising God. We should not spend the whole time speaking of the blessedness of our relationships, but rather so be in the gain of them, that the Blesser -- God Himself -- engages our hearts. J.N.D. points out that in Psalm 150 it does not even say 'our God'; it is "Praise El in His sanctuary". We do not bring ourselves in at all; God in His blessedness, greatness and majesty fills the vision.

Rem. The saints are being helped to be sustained in the praise of God in the final phase of the service, more and more.

G.R.C. One rejoices in it. In every locality the saints are finding more and more liberty in that which is, in the fullest sense, the service of God. I believe that saints, in all nations where they are, are developing in this feature.

Ques. Is the last reference to God in Revelation important -- "The Lord God shall shine upon them"?

G.R.C. That is Jehovah Elohim, a title connected with the making of man in the beginning. That blessed One Who formed man in the beginning has achieved His purpose.

Ques. Would you say a word about the Father's portion, because the Father as such, is supreme in the economy, is He not? What is your thought about the balance, as I might call it, in service -- the portion to the Father, and the portion to God?

G.R.C. One has noticed that, in the epistles, there are approximately twice as many doxologies to the Father as to the Lord Jesus, and approximately twice as many to God as God as there are to the Father. Does that help?

Ques. That would confirm the way the Spirit is helping the saints to be sustained before God?

G.R.C. I think so.

Ques. Would you say that if we are sustained in worship to the Beloved, we shall find no difficulty in moving forward into the worship of God Himself?

G.R.C. I think the great truth of union underlies the whole of the subsequent service.

Ques. In regard to the privilege of addressing God in the service, while there is the fullest liberty to mention the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, I suppose it would not be obligatory; there would be liberty to address God as such?

G.R.C. I think it is well that the Name should be brought in, but it is certainly not obligatory upon every brother taking part in the final phase of the service to use it.

Rem. I was thinking, while fully allowing for the use of the Name, of the possibility of mere formality.

G.R.C. I do not mean that it must be used in every thanksgiving, because there ought to be many thanksgivings to God. But it would surely not be happy to leave it out altogether?

Ques. Is there not such a lustre about that Name, that, if it laid hold of us, we should delight to use it, and never desire to find a reason for not using it?

G.R.C. I think we have experienced that it thrills our hearts and stimulates our worship.

Ques. Would you not connect it with the reference to the glory of Jehovah in Ezekiel 43?

G.R.C. I would.

Ques. Is it interesting the number of times David mentions the name of God in his worship, using a different name each time?

G.R.C. Yes. I think it shows the variety there should be in thanksgiving. It may not be that we should use actual Old Testament names, but what is conveyed in those names should come into our thanksgivings. There are many hymns which incorporate some of the meanings of those great names of old, all of which attach to this glorious God now known under the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit -- the greatest of names.

Ques. Do you not feel that the fruit of the ministry ought to remove any remaining doubt? It helps much to see the fruit of the ministry in greater reverence for God, and greater appreciation of the incarnation.

G.R.C. I am sure that is true. It says in Matthew 28 that some hesitated, or doubted, or were at a loss what to think, but that state should not last long. It should not go on for years. And, if hesitant, why spread doubt and hinder others?

Ques. Do we not want more of the glory of Psalm 68? The mountain of God, as supreme, is there; the exalted Man; the teaching, the Lord giving the word; and then the nations, great ones coming out of Egypt; Ethiopia stretching out her hand to God; and then that wonderful statement, "Blessed be God". Would that fit in?

G.R.C. Quite so. And, "the goings of my God, my King, in the sanctuary".

Rem. That Psalm also takes character from the first reference to Jah in the Psalms. Jah, meaning the existing One objectively, occurs 43 times from Psalm 68 to 150, and 7 times elsewhere.

G.R.C. Very good. What scope there is in the service for worship to God in His majesty and greatness! How good it is to rise to a doxology such as 1 Timothy 1:17! I suppose one of the greatest in scripture, because it ascribes glory to God in the majesty of His eternal Being, "the King of the ages, the incorruptible, invisible, only God". In the light of God known according to the Name of Matthew 28:19, Paul was rendering to Him the glory due on account of His eternal majesty.

Ques. Is he not worshipping as an individual? Do you not think we need more of that in secret?

G.R.C. I think if there were more of it in secret, we would be more ready worshippers in the assembly. I have no doubt Paul's doxologies give us an idea of the way he did praise God in the assembly. The doxologies in Timothy were written to him by Paul while Timothy was at Ephesus. They would help the Ephesians in filling out Ephesians 3:21, "To him be glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus".

Ques. I wanted to ask about the individual side, because it would seem that when David went in, and sat before Jehovah, he got into a very freshly flowing current in the Spirit, and said some marvellous things, reaching eventually, "And now Jehovah, Thou art that God". He was not at a meeting.

G.R.C. That is very important. In our private devotions, do we make time to move on to the worship of God? If we do it will greatly enrich the service of God in the assembly.

Ques. Shall we not receive impressions which are really preparatory to our part in assembly service?

G.R.C. That is what I would say -- what is preparatory.

Ques. Does Isaiah 12 help in that connection, in the fact that El, Jehovah and Jah are brought in?

G.R.C. Those great names are brought in at the beginning of Isaiah 12, "El is my salvation: I will trust,

and not be afraid; for Jah, Jehovah, is my strength and song". Similarly, at the beginning of the song in Exodus 15 those names are brought in, showing that Christian baptism, of which this is a type, taken up in faith, brings us into touch with the greatest of things; and in that initial song, it is made clear that the God, to Whom they had been baptised, was going to dwell amongst them. "Thou has guided them by thy strength to the abode of thy holiness". Also He would bring them in to the mountain of His inheritance, the fixed place of His dwelling, the sanctuary which His hands had prepared.

Ques. Does not the last phrase of Ezekiel indicate that the glory of that Name, far from being a formality, is woven into the warp and woof of the saints individually and collectively? "The name of the city from that day, Jehovah is there".

G.R.C. What a marvellous name for a city!

Ques. Would you just say more about the doxologies. The name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit is not referred to, but just God. Are they a pattern for us, or are we to read into the word, "God", the name of Matthew 28:19?

G.R.C. I do not think we must be legal or formal in uttering this great name of Matthew 28:19; it would spoil it. But I think if we love God, and love His Name as declared, it surely will come into the service. We need the conditions. We have been speaking about the moral conditions suitable to "God with us", so that the Holy One is free in our midst, which involves the Holy Spirit having complete liberty. If that is so, we shall soon arrive at the truth of union, and, having arrived at the truth of union, we shall be like the hind of the morning in company with our Beloved; and He will soon lead us on into the presence of His Father, and into the presence of His God.

Ques. Do you think we also need to make room for the Lord's own unique part in the service? I was

thinking of Hebrews 2, "In the midst of the assembly will I sing thy praises".

G.R.C. The truth of union makes us sensitive to His impulse and direction, so that the assembly becomes available to Him in the service of God. We need to maintain an objective view of Christ all through the service. We must not think that, "in the midst of the assembly", means that He is lost sight of, as though He were one of us. He must ever be before us objectively. If we see the Father's glories, they shine in Him; and if He is singing in the midst of the assembly, He is nevertheless the Head of the body, the assembly, the One in Whom the fulness of the Godhead dwells. We shall see Him shine, and God shining in Him, all through eternity.

Ques. Has John 20, "My Father and your Father, my God and your God", a bearing on what you have been saying?

G.R.C. Very much so. "My Father" is unique to Christ; He has His own special place; but your Father involves the manifestation of the Holy Trinity, for we know the Father only in and through the Son, and by the Spirit. But then He says, "my God", that would be God in the absolute; Christ, being God, knows God in the absolute; but then He says, "your God", which surely involves the worship of the Trinity.

GREATER THAN THE TEMPLE; MORE THAN JONAS; MORE THAN SOLOMON

Matthew 12:1 - 10, 13 - 24, 31 - 42

I desire, dear brethren, that the Spirit of God may give us an impression of the greatness of Christ, and therefore the greatness of what was here when He was here; also -- I speak, of course, in a much lesser way now -- of the greatness of the saints according to divine thoughts; and then we may receive some impression of the greatness of what is here now in the scene of testimony.

There are many expressions in this chapter which bring out the greatness of Christ. He is the antitype of David; He says, "have ye not read what David did?" He also says, "there is here what is greater than the temple"; "the Son of man is Lord of the sabbath"; "more than Jonas is here"; and "more than Solomon is here". There were those at that time who had received some impression of the greatness of Christ. They had heard Him praising the Father, "the Lord of the heaven and of the earth". They had heard Him saying, "All things have been delivered to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son but the Father"; they had heard Him speak of revealing the Father to whom He pleased; they had heard Him issue the invitation, "Come to me". Glorious Person, the alone One who could stand and issue such an invitation and that, in the consciousness that He was rightly the Centre of the divine system! "Come to me", He says, "and I will give you rest". There were those who had come to Him. Jesus went on the Sabbath through the cornfields; and His disciples were with Him. Those who had come to Him were with

Him, moving with Him. It was indeed the sabbath to them; the Lord had brought them to rest. "Come to me", and, according to the footnote, 'I will bring you to rest'. In Him the Father rests, His own beloved Son. We find our rest where the Father rests, in Christ. On the other hand, we also find our rest where the Lord Jesus found His rest, in the Father. How marvellous is the rest which He brings us into; what a sabbath! We are resting in the One in Whom the Father rests; we are resting, too, in the love of Him into Whose love the Son retired. We know the Father. What rest is the portion of believers! What liberty is ours!

And so they walked through the cornfields on the sabbath. The Son of man is Lord of the sabbath; it is He Who has brought in the true sabbath. It is He Who brings souls to rest, to rest where the Father rests, and to rest where He rests. Furthermore, as we take His yoke, and move with Him, we find rest for our souls; the disciples were moving with Him, and it is our privilege to move with Him. "David ... and they that were with him", the Lord says. There were those who took upon themselves David's yoke, but the disciples had taken on themselves the yoke of the glorious Son of David, the Lord of the sabbath. They were hungry, but they were in liberty; and they began to pluck the ears and eat. They would not eat the chaff; they were after the wheat. That raises the question as to what we eat when we are hungry. The Lord says, "Have ye not read what David did when he was hungry?" We all become hungry, and we need food. You say, Christ is our food. That is true. The barley harvest would speak, no doubt, of Christ Himself; He is our food. But we need other food as well, because we need human companionship down here; and scripture indicates that we feed upon those whose companionship we keep. Hence the importance of Leviticus 11 which deals with clean and

unclean animals. We feed upon those whose companionship we keep. We cannot do otherwise; and, as feeding upon them, we take on their characteristics. It is a great thing to feed on the wheat; a great thing to feed on the saints as they are according to God. What joy and liberty there is in that. Peter became hungry and fell into an ecstasy, and saw in a vision a vessel like a sheet descending out of heaven and coming to him; "And there was a voice to him, Rise, Peter, slay and eat. And Peter said, In no wise, Lord; for I have never eaten anything common or unclean". It would indeed have been of no value to Peter to feed upon those creatures which he saw in the vessel according to their natural features and their natural origin. But the word was, "slay and eat". He was not to feed upon them according to their natural features; he was to feed upon them as those whom God had cleansed. He was to bring the death of Christ to bear upon the persons represented, and to recognise that God had wrought in them; and so it says, "What God has cleansed, do not thou make common". What do we feed on when we are hungry? Do we feed upon the brethren according to their natural characteristics? How sinful flesh loves those tasty morsels we call scandal! Alternatively we may be occupied with troubles; it is poor food, and will not sustain the soul. The word is, "Have ye not read what David did?" He entered into the house of God. If you are hungry, enter into the house of God; look at the saints as they appear before God. "He entered into the house of God, and ate and shewbread" -- the bread of the presence. It is a great thing to eat the shewbread. We shall not appreciate the greatness of Christ, nor the greatness of what is here in testimony, unless we have this outlook on the saints. Instead, we shall be damaged in our souls, and hindered. When we are hungry, let us enter the house of God, and eat the bread of the presence on the pure table; feed upon

the saints as they are before God, as He sees them -- reconciled to God in one body by the cross. Israel was represented by twelve loaves. We are one bread, one body. It is delightful to feed upon the saints thus; and what is so encouraging is that the persons with David were young men. Similarly those who were accompanying the Lord through the cornfields were young men. Christianity began with young men; and the testimony is still, in a special way, a young man's matter. Of course, I include young women in that. If you read this incident in David's history, you will find it refers to the young men who were with him. Young men were feeding on the very best food; they were in company with David, and eating priestly food, the bread of the presence. That is what young men and women need to feed upon. Refuse to be occupied with what pertains to the flesh. Be true to your priestly instincts.

The real priests at that time were with David and those with him; that is where the service of God was going on. In the cave of Adullam it was going on, for David composed a psalm there. He composed a psalm when the Philistines took him in Gath -- Psalm 56. He even composed a psalm when Doeg the Edomite told Saul of his visit to Abimelech when he ate the shewbread. Think of the living character of the service of God which was proceeding! David undoubtedly had his harp with him! And who would sing those psalms? Surely David and those who were with him. It was there that the service of God was proceeding. And in principle that was happening when the Lord was here. The true service of God was maintained by Jesus, the Son of David, and those who were with Him. He had just said, "I praise thee, Father, Lord of heaven and of the earth"; He was setting on the praise, and those who were with Him would, in due time, take it up. Later His praise resounded in the temple -- "Hosanna to the Son

of David". Out of the mouths of babes and sucklings praise was perfected. I appeal specially to young people, to young men and women, as to the privilege which is open to you. If you are committed to the Lord, you may eat the very best food; the food which belongs to the priests is your property; and I would encourage you to eat it -- to appropriate the saints according to God -- so that you may be sustained in priestly power, in company with the true David, and in the service of song. I would again say that Christianity has always been especially a young man's matter. I do not leave the older ones out; they are essential. But Christianity began with young men; the apostles were young men. They were fathers as to spiritual stature, for they had known Him that was from the beginning, but they were young men actually. Youth is needed in the testimony, and youth is needed in praise. Indeed the service of praise is one of the most vital parts of the testimony. And it is of primary importance from the testimonial angle, that young people should be in it, wholly in it. The enemy has no answer to that. With all the attractions he is bringing in to hold the young, he has no answer to it when young men and women are found wholly with the true David, accepting His rejection, and wholly with Him in the service of God.

And so the Lord goes on to say here, "I say unto you, that there is here what is greater than the temple". As I said, the service of God was being maintained by the Lord Jesus, and those who were with Him at that time. The temple service was a mere form. And where is the service of God now, dear brethren? The Lord Jesus is not here corporeally, but the Holy Spirit, another Divine Person, is dwelling in the saints, and with them. There is, therefore, at the present time, what is greater than the temple, greater than all the cathedrals, greater than the greatest human system of religion. The Holy Spirit is here in,

and with, the saints -- "Ye are the temple of God, and the Spirit of God dwells in you". And the service of God is proceeding; because where the Spirit of God is, and has the place He should have amongst the saints, the presence of Christ is still known. He says, "I will not leave you orphans, I am coming to you". The presence of Christ is still known where the Spirit is ungrieved and unquenched, and thus the service of God proceeds. Think of the position when Christ was here. Who was here? The Minister of the holy places. He says, "there is here what is greater than the temple". The Minister of the holy places was there, actually on earth at that time. But the Minister of the holy places now is at the right hand of the throne of the greatness on high, but He has set up down here the true tabernacle, "which the Lord has pitched, and not man". Thus, as the Spirit has His place, we realise today the presence of the Minister of the holy places, and the service of God proceeds.

Following this, the Lord cures the man's hand; and He is prepared to do that for all of us, for He wants us all to be in the service. If we are to be in the service we must be able to lift up holy hands in the sanctuary. Whatever disabilities we have, the Lord is available to cure them. He wants every young person, and every older one, to be vitally in this service.

And so, as the passage proceeds and the opposition increases, the Holy Spirit brings forward this wonderful prophecy, "Behold my servant, whom I have chosen, my beloved". What a glorious Person Jesus is! What a touching expression -- My Beloved, In whom my soul has found its delight! Think of God's soul being moved, and of the emotions expressed -- "my beloved, in whom my soul has found its delight. I will put my Spirit upon him". This gives a wonderful character to the anointing, and to that great title

the Christ. It was in this manner, we may say, that the Lord Jesus, as Man, was exalted to the highest office in the universe! Why does God exalt Him? Because, according to this passage, He was so lovely, so worthy. He affected the very soul of God. "I will put my Spirit upon him". God says, as it were, He shall have the highest office in the universe. What a joy it is to God that His Beloved is now in the highest office in the universe. The prayer of Ephesians 3 is that we might be in accord with the Father in this matter; that the Christ may dwell in our hearts by faith; that He might be our Beloved, that our soul may find its delight in Him; that we may say, Amen, to the fact that He has the highest office in the universe. What an office "the Christ" is -- God's anointed is His Priest, the Minister of the Sanctuary; God's anointed is the King, "more than Solomon is here"; God's anointed is the Preacher, and "more than Jonas is here". Glorious Person!

But as the opposition increases, and He moves on, He heals a blind and dumb man. See how the Lord is concerned about the service! We cannot serve God if we are blind. The cure for blindness, as we have often been reminded, is to wash in the pool of Siloam, to get into the current of the Spirit. It does not give detail here as to how the man was healed; it says, "he healed him". It is a great thing to see, to be enlightened in the eyes of our heart, that we may know what is the hope of His calling, the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints and the exceeding greatness of His power to usward who believe. And the dumb man spoke, as well as saw. We have a man speaking now. What a great thing it is to know how to speak to God, and thus to learn how to speak to man! Surely we all desire to be able to speak to God, and thus to learn how to speak to man. Surely we all desire to be able to speak to God more acceptably. The Lord would help us. The

dumb man spake and saw. And they say of Jesus, "Is this man the Son of David?" He was proving that He was the Son of David. The actions of God's Beloved are always in view of God's praise and God's glory.

The Pharisees, having heard it, said, "This man does not cast out demons, but by Beelzebub, prince of demons". The Lord answered that by bringing out in a most remarkable way the personality of the Holy Spirit. In the 11th chapter, He had spoken in a remarkable way of the Father and of Himself, fully asserting the Deity both of the Father and of Himself. The Spirit was not yet given to the saints, so that the Spirit is not referred to there. But when the attack comes, the Lord takes the opportunity to assert, in unequivocal terms, the Deity of the Holy Spirit. He says, "Every sin and injurious speaking shall be forgiven to men, but speaking injuriously of the Spirit shall not be forgiven to men. And whosever shall have spoken a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him; but whosoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this age nor in the corning one". I cannot conceive of any language which could more emphatically assert the Deity of the Holy Spirit. He is so very God that he that speaks against Him is never to be forgiven. And that applies to the present time, because the Spirit is here. It applied when the Lord was here, because they said that He was casting out demons, by Beelzebub. But it particularly bears on our day, when the Spirit is here. The Son is no longer here as in the days of His flesh, but the Spirit is here -- the "Holy Spirit", as He says. It is a solemn thing to think of the Holy Spirit here, and of the responsibility which attaches to all in the christian profession to respect His Person, and the terrible penalty for speaking against Him. But then, how it opens up the glory of the present time. The Son is no longer here in bodily form; but it is

a greater dispensation, one which the Lord, as we may say, speaking reverently, so much looked forward to. He says, "If ye loved me ye would rejoice that I go to the Father, for my Father is greater than I". And again, "It is profitable for you that I go away; for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come to you; but if I go I will send him to you". He looks on to this great day, when the Spirit of God is here. The Minister of the Sanctuary has sat down at the right hand of the throne of the greatness in the heavens; and the true tabernacle, which the Lord has pitched, and not man, is set up here in virtue of the presence of the Spirit; and the service of God is proceeding. It is a wonderful day! Whether young or old, we would surely all desire to be fully in it. Great heights are connected with it, as indicated typically in Solomon's day. "He built his sanctuary like the heights, like the earth which he hath founded for ever". There are great heights connected with the service; the Lord says, "More than Solomon is here". The great Builder was here; "On this rock", he says, "I will build my assembly". The great Builder had come; He who builds all things is God. The One Who is God over all, blessed for ever, had come; far greater than Solomon -- the One Who would build God's sanctuary like the heights.

We would desire to have part in the heights connected with assembly service. But if we are to have part in the heights, we have to begin with the depths. He says, "a sign shall not be given to it save the sign of Jonas the prophet. For even as Jonas was in the belly of the great fish three days and three nights". What depths, dear brethren! We are to know the breadth and length and depth and height. What depths are suggested here! The Son of Man three days and three nights in the heart of the earth! "All thy breakers and thy billows are gone over me ... The deep was round about me, The weeds were

wrapped about my head, I went down to the bottom of the mountains; The bars of the earth closed upon me for ever", Jonah 2:3 - 6. What depths He has been into to secure the service of God! Solomon gives typically the heights; Jonas the depths -- three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. That is the Man who is God's Anointed Preacher. How could the Lord Jesus have been a great Preacher otherwise? What message would He have had to preach? What would be the purpose of saying Repent, were He not going to lay this great foundation? -- three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. Are we prepared for the depths? Are we prepared to go down? We have not to go where Jesus went; we could not. Is it not for us to go down to the bottom of the mountains? How do we go down? By repentance. "Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown". That was the message of the most successful preacher of Old Testament days. All the proud trees of the forest had to come down. And it says, "The men of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them", Jonah 3:5. The greatest began it! It is not easy to get 'great' people to repent. We may get a position which we may think 'great'; but then it is not easy to repent. "Yet forty days and Nineveh shall be overthrown". You are given forty days; God gives space for repentance. If repentance does not come about, the judgment falls. We cannot trifle with God. They believed God, it says. They did not wait till the 39th day; they repented straight away; it is a great thing to repent straight away. However great the men were, the judgment would not be postponed beyond forty days. There is no respect of persons with God. And there is to be no respect of persons with us. The men of Nineveh believed God, proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them to the

least. If this were done, dear brethren, in localities where there are open sores at the present time, there would be healing, especially if "the greatest of them" began it. Sometimes the greatest are the main cause of the trouble. The Ninevites put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them to the least. They all put it on, no one pointing the finger, and saying, I am better than you. They all put the sackcloth on, "and the word reached the king of Nineveh". What was he going to do? "He arose from his throne, and laid his robe from him, and covered himself with sackcloth, and sat in ashes". What a thing for a king to do! Human wisdom would have said, 'That is not becoming for a king; you will make yourself very foolish in the eyes of the people'. Nevertheless the king did it. How effective was the preaching of Jonah! We mourn the lack of effective preachers, those who can get below the surface. Jonas was a man who could get below the surface, because he had been three days and three nights in the fish's belly, and he knew what depths were himself. How deeply he had repented; thus he had no need to say much. The city came down in repentance. And it goes on to say, the king commanded "let man and beast be covered with sackcloth" -- it was thorough repentance -- "and cry mightily unto God; and let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands. Who knoweth but that God will turn and repent, and will turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not? And God saw their works". They were works meet for repentance. "God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil that he had said he would do unto them, and he did it not". That is, they repented, and then God repented.

We all have to face these exercises. If we do not know something of depths we shall never touch the heights. A greater than Jonas is here; the men of

Nineveh repented at the preaching of Jonas; and yet some can be unaffected when the Lord Himself appeals to them -- the Son of man, He Who spent three days and three nights in the heart of the earth! What a contrast to Jonas, a man fleeing, afraid to deliver his message; what a contrast to Jonas is the Son of man! He went into depths no creature could fathom in obedience to God's will. Why are we not prepared for depths? How small are the depths we are called upon to enter into, compared with those Christ entered into! What does God ask of us? Repentance, and works worthy of repentance! Sackcloth from the greatest to the least! If we respond thus to the great Preacher -- the Greater than Jonas -- we shall become available for the One Who is greater than Solomon; we shall be brought into the gain of the Father's revelation to Peter, and become living stones in that great structure, the sanctuary which the great Builder, the Son, is building like the heights. Beloved brethren, let us give heed to the great Preacher, the greatest of all preachers -- the Lord Himself; so that we may become available to Him as the true Solomon, living stones in that living structure which the Son of the living God is building for the eternal praise and glory of His God. That service of praise, which will go on through all eternity, commences here, because the Holy Spirit is here -- in and with us. May the Lord help us, for His name's sake.