Numbers 1:1 - 4, 47 - 54; Numbers 2:1 - 2; Numbers 3:5 - 10

G.R.C. It is in mind to refer to other scriptures in Numbers in the later readings, but in this reading one feels the Holy Spirit would give us an impression of what is incumbent upon us in view of God having taken up His abode amongst His people. We might consider that point first, the wonder of it, of God having taken up His abode amongst His people in the wilderness. One thing that immediately comes into view is conscription for military service, the appointment of the Levites in verse 50 of chapter 1, and the appointment of the priests in chapter 3: 10. "Thou shalt appoint them for the priest's office". But this follows God taking up His residence in the habitation which love had provided: "they shall make me a sanctuary" was the proposal in Exodus 25, as some of us were considering last night. "They shall make me a sanctuary" every one was to be in it "that I may dwell among them". The willing hearted and the wise hearted operated, the sanctuary had been provided -- that is the exercise of Exodus, that we should provide the sanctuary, sanctuary conditions for God. And God had taken up His residence in the last chapter of Exodus, "on the first day of the first month of the second year". Then a month had elapsed, during which what we have in Leviticus took place: "And Jehovah called to Moses and spoke to him out of the tent of meeting", Leviticus 1:1. What a new departure it was! They had known what it was for God to speak from heaven; but now God was dwelling amongst them, and He calls to Moses and speaks to him out of the tent of meeting,

supposing that His lovers would desire to draw near to Him. They had provided Him with a habitation and He had come down to dwell; how it speaks of Divine love, that God should desire to dwell with us at the present time! And then He speaks out of the tent of meeting relative to those who would desire to approach Him; and I suppose during this month the priests had been consecrated, and hallowed, the altar had been dedicated, which you get later in this book, and with the dedication of the altar, the great offering of the princes. Wonderful things had gone on, and now on the first day of the second month Jehovah spoke to Moses in the wilderness of Sinai in the tent of meeting, He is speaking in the tent of meeting. He would speak inside, as it were, of our responsibilities outside, because the more we know our inside place the more we shall be desirous of, and prepared for, the responsibilities outside. And so He spoke to Moses in the wilderness of Sinai in the tent of meeting. I wonder if that would help us to get a present view of what is typified here, the wonder of it, God dwelling in His habitation in the Spirit down here, and the people encamped around Him! But now the encampment is to be regulated. We sing sometimes, "Our God the Centre is, His presence fills that land"; but Numbers presents God as the Centre here in the scene of testimony.

Ques. Is there not a difference in the various dwellings of God? This would be relative to testimony.

G.R.C. So that the tabernacle, seven or eight times in this book is called the tabernacle of testimony. Is not that a very precious view of the assembly?

Ques. Would it be anticipated that certain attributes of God were to shine out through the people?

G.R.C. I wondered in that way whether it was illustrated in Corinth! Corinth gives us the assembly in the wilderness and Paul says "the testimony of the Christ has been confirmed in you"; and, in chapter 2

he says that he came amongst them with fear and trembling and so on, announcing the testimony of God. So that Paul came to Corinth carrying as it were, the testimony of the Christ and the testimony of God; but the point was, where was that testimony to find a residence in that city? Well, it involved eighteen month's work straight away; eighteen month's work, much people there, much material, but the initial work took eighteen months, as it were, in principle, to set together the tabernacle of witness.

Ques. Would the thought of testimony involve the setting out of the light in the locality? I was thinking of the setting in Numbers, they were to be numbered according to their tribes, and set in relation to their standards and their father's houses. Would all that suggest that the testimony is to shine out in localities; while it is universal in its bearing, it is expressed locally, is it?

G.R.C. Yes, that is developed under Paul's ministry, that while the tabernacle of testimony is a great universal idea, God's habitation in the Spirit, at the present time I suppose, stretches to the four corners of the earth; yet it is to be expressed, the features of it are to shine in every locality; what is proper to the tabernacle of testimony as a whole is to be seen in every locality.

Rem. That is a very dignified word that Stephen uses, "the assembly in the wilderness". I thought it would connect with a system of glory really, not merely a congregation going through, but a setting out of divine attributes and order and dignity.

G.R.C. You can understand therefore why Paul remained in Corinth eighteen months teaching.

Ques. Is the church of God the testimonial name? I was thinking of how it is introduced at Corinth -- "the assembly of God".

G.R.C. I think it is in the way it is used in that epistle, the assembly of God. It is the residence of

God of course, "God among you", but it is the residence too of the testimony of God, Paul went there announcing the testimony of God.

Ques. Does this link on with the current exercise as to all our meetings being public, that the testimony of God might shine out?

G.R.C. Well, in considering this exercise, we should have to take this idea of the testimony of God into account. And the assembly is the vessel where the testimony of God and the testimony of Christ are enshrined.

Rem. You had something in mind as to conscription. Last night, in Exodus, you were drawing our attention to everyone whose heart prompted him. This is rather different from that, is it?

G.R.C. Yes, but God does not bring it to bear upon the people until He has taken up His residence in His habitation, and they had had a month, and there had been the opportunity to draw near to Him, then He asserts what He ever had the right to assert, but He asserts His rights in love over the people. But the only answer to love like that that had led Him to come down to dwell, and has led Him now to come down to dwell among us in these mixed conditions, is that we should all accept conscription; because God so loves us that He has not postponed His dwelling until conditions are perfect, until we reach the eternal state. But we ought to pay more attention to, and contemplate more earnestly, the amazing character of the proposal -- and of what has actually taken place -- of God having such affection for His people that nothing would meet or satisfy the desires of His heart but to dwell among us now. How He loves us, that He should want to dwell among us now! We dwell with those we love; dwelling is a matter of love, and God has come to dwell among His people. But then, in such mixed conditions, and in an unholy city like Corinth, if sanctuary conditions suitable for God are

to be maintained, it is essential that we should all accept conscription.

Rem. So it says in Romans 6"But now having got your freedom from sin and having become bondmen to God". Would bondmen to God involve this matter of conscription? It goes on to speak of "ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end eternal life".

G.R.C. Quite so. If we recognise bondmanship, the claims of God in the way of conscription would not present any hardship to a bondman, he is already committed to whatever he is called upon to do.

Ques. Does this matter of the military question involve that the divine presence needs to be guarded?

G.R.C. Yes, I think so.

Rem. I was thinking of how early the idea of guarding enters into the divine thought; man was set in the garden to begin with, not only to till it, but to guard it.

G.R.C. That is very helpful. And of course he failed in that, but still it is a wonderful thing to think of, that guarding came in at the very outset, there was the garden of God's delight, and it was to be guarded; well how essential now that the habitation of God should be guarded!

Ques. And is it to be noted that the view of the assembly in Corinth, what is referred to as the dwelling-place, is the temple, the shrine, the house itself.

G.R.C. Quite so. And Hebrews says "Whose house are we, if we hold fast the boldness of the boast of hope firm to the end", Hebrews 3. That is the Exodus view, "Whose house are we". We, as Christians, form the material for the house; the willing hearted involves Romans 12, that we present our bodies, each of us, one great living sacrifice for the one great end, that is, providing God with a sanctuary, sanctuary conditions. So that that views us as forming the house; but then Numbers views us as in our responsibilities relative to it.

Ques. Is not that the way the apostle takes the matter up with the Corinthians, being such a house, he has to regulate them, does he not, as to what is external?

G.R.C. And I think there you get the idea of the "holy nation". You see Peter applies to us what was applied to Israel in Exodus 19, a kingdom of priests and a holy nation. Peter says in his epistle, "ye are a chosen race", well that would bring in I suppose sonship and so on -- "Israel is my son, my first-born". And then he says "a kingly priesthood", which might link with Leviticus, and then "a holy nation", which I think links with Numbers, because in Numbers the whole nation is organised relative to the habitation of God in the midst.

Rem. So that the word goes on, "that ye might set forth the excellencies of him who has called you out of darkness to his wonderful light". Is that the testimony of God?

G.R.C. It is, and I think it is important to keep in our minds that from the standpoint of the title "tabernacle of testimony", it implies that the assembly is the vessel in which the testimony of the Christ, and the testimony of God are enshrined, and nothing is to be allowed to sully that, and showing forth the excellencies of Him who has called us out of darkness into his wonderful light would bear on that. Nothing is to bedim the excellencies of the God whose testimony is enshrined in the tabernacle. And we need to keep these things in our minds -- the testimony of the Christ and the testimony of God. There is no other thought than that the assembly, universally, and also as seen in its local setting, should be the vessel in which the testimony of the Christ and the testimony of God are enshrined unsullied.

Ques. Would you just say a few words as to the distinctive features of those two testimonies in the way you speak of them?

G.R.C. I wish I could say something about them, they are very great thoughts. "The testimony of the Christ" is so linked up with the vessel that in chapter 12 of Corinthians Paul, in referring to it as the assembly here, can say "so also is the Christ". It is really the assembly as the anointed vessel now. The whole tabernacle -- every part of it -- and the priests were anointed; everything was in the grace of the anointing. In every way the system was descriptive of Christ. The material of the tabernacle -- while the curtains and the boards represent the saints -- in character, was all Christ, and nothing but Christ, and therefore anointed on that account. And then Christ personally was enshrined there: the ark, the table, the candlestick, all were to be seen at Corinth. There was a company anointed, and Christ enshrined amongst them, so that anyone coming in touch with that company would get an impression of Christ's day -- a testimony to Christ's day. But then not only that, the testimony of God was there, therefore Paul does not close that epistle without referring to the day of God, because the day of God is touched in the assembly, "that God may be all in all".

Rem. So that, as I understand what you are saying, it is a very wonderful thing that in the testimony at the present time there is ability to present things as they will appear in glory in the world to come and in the day of God. Is not that a very wonderful conception, a very wonderful standard to keep in our minds and in our hearts?

G.R.C. It is very wonderful. As the tabernacle went through the wilderness as the tabernacle of testimony, whether it was stationary or in movement, the first thing I take it that would impress anyone who came into touch with it would be the perfume, the odour of the anointing -- "a perfume after the work of the perfumer" Exodus 30:35, it says as to the holy anointing oil.

Ques. Would that connect with the word in Corinthians again, "the odour of his knowledge in every place"? That would not only apply to what was conferred, but what was brought out amongst the saints, specially with Paul and those with him.

G.R.C. Paul had to refer to that, relative to himself and those with him, because of the absence of it in practical reality among the saints in Corinth, so he says "God makes manifest the odour of his knowledge through us in every place". But then that was true; the idea was that as Paul left every place, he should leave behind the anointed vessel itself, so that the odour of God's knowledge in that place remained. And then the next thing that would impress a person who came in touch with the tabernacle, or perhaps equally so, with the presence of God in it, whether the tabernacle in movement or stationary, was the pillar of cloud by day and the pillar of fire by night. People should get an impression of the odour of the Spirit of Christ, the anointing, and an impression of the very presence of God amongst His people.

Rem. That is what is in mind in relation to a simple person coming in, or an unbeliever, "reporting that God is indeed amongst you", 1 Corinthians 14:25.

G.R.C. That is it. And that is the testimony of God, God is indeed amongst you. And you think of what that means to anyone who comes to the Lord's supper, an exercised soul, a simple person as you say. The service does not end until the saints are in spirit touching the day of God. What an effect that would normally have on a soul that was exercised, to hear the praise at the close of the meeting, the touches of eternity! That is how the testimony of God comes into expression in the fullest way I take it. But then it is there all the time, in our ministry meetings and at other times, God is there.

Ques. Does the apostle bring both the incense and the anointing oil together in that passage in Corinthians?

The odour of his knowledge on the one hand, and the sweet odour of Christ to God on the other?

G.R.C. That is very good.

Rem. I thought you would have one just as you had the other, would you?

G.R.C. You think one is the odour and the other is the incense, the sweet odour of Christ to God -- very good.

Ques. Would you say that what you are bringing forward, testimony, involves identification with Christ? I was thinking there was nothing of a collective testimony until they had got through the Red Sea, then God had a people. I wondered if you would emphasise the importance of complete identification with His death and burial and resurrection; and then comes Corinthians, the working out, death working in us -- 2 Corinthians 4:12. Would that be in line with what you are bringing forward as being essential to it?

G.R.C. I am sure it would. They could not serve God in Egypt, as Moses said, the service could not go on there, nor could God's presence be known amongst His people, it could only be as they had crossed the Red Sea, and been brought to Himself, as He says, "I have borne you on eagles' wings, and brought you to myself", Exodus 19:4.

Ques. Do you think we should have something more as to this question of guarding? It is striking that in connection with the Ephesian company the elders are told to shepherd the assembly of God which He has purchased with the blood of His own. They were not told to teach, though teaching is important, but to shepherd, which would involve guarding. One feels it is very necessary at the present time.

G.R.C. It is very necessary, and that brings up the question of conscription again. It was not a special appointment, it was simply all were conscripted for it, and there is a good deal that hinges upon it. The first

thing Paul says about a soldier is that he does not entangle himself with the affairs of this life; if I am entangled with the affairs of this life it is pretty clear I am not much good at guarding the testimony. And then it raises the question as to what our tents are like, because it was a question of how they were to encamp, everything was to be according to divine ordering, so that another thing that arises is, Why am I where I am -- as to geographical position? Did God put me there, or was it earthly advantage or something else that put me there?

Rem. I remember Mr. Robert Dunn saying during the first world war, "Make no mistake about it, brethren, conscription is a divine idea". I think some of us were a little startled at the time, but we found out he was right.

G.R.C. So it is a basic thing in national life nowadays, and here we have the holy nation, and the first thing that regulation brought in nationally, as we may say, was conscription.

Rem. The trouble with conscription as men know it is that many are conscripted who are not sympathetic, but with divine conscription everyone is sympathetic.

G.R.C. Yes, because it is such an affectionate matter, a Christian soldier is a suffering man, he takes his share in suffering, not in making others suffer, but he takes his share in suffering himself. So the whole setting here is an affectionate one, after their families, according to their father's houses. Their affections would be involved; God dwelling there being the supreme thing, but their affections were involved in every way, they were defending what they loved.

Ques. Would it help us to accept thankfully our place wherever God has set us in His ways, to see that it is God who has set the members in the body as it has pleased Him, we are set there for the divine

pleasure are we?

G.R.C. We are, and so God's ordering has in view the sovereign place in the body, and coupled with that, that He would order our actual circumstances, would He not, as to the locality we are placed in -- it is no small matter to change your locality.

Ques. Do you think that is why the Spirit was at pains in Acts 18 to enlarge upon the company at Corinth -- who they were, how they got there, where they lived, and what their work was? I am thinking along the lines on which you are speaking, that all that has its bearing on the testimony.

G.R.C. That is good. Aquila and Priscilla were there in the government of God, not of their own choice, their occupation had been ordered by God, God would order our secular occupation; God would order everything in the holy nation; everything is to be ordered by the God who is the Centre. That is the idea to keep in mind in the holy nation -- "Our God the Centre is" now here in the scene of testimony, and His residence is at the centre, and everything revolves round Him and His residence, and He would regulate the whole of our lives relative to that, where we live, what work we do, and everything else.

Rem. In that chapter -- Acts 18 -- you quoted that Paul was teaching among them the word of God. I was thinking of the adjustment of fairly recent years we have had as to the announcement of the Word of God in our rooms on the Lord's Day. Would that bear on this matter of conscription, the number of interested persons largely comprising our own young people, would it bear on the manner of the presentation of the Word of God, that they are conscripted for such service?

G.R.C. Yes, I think so, because you have in mind in the preaching of the Word, securing persons relative to the tabernacle, as material for it and as set in relation to it. Is that so?

Rem. Yes I had that exactly in mind, I thought the service was not complete unless that end was reached.

G.R.C. Where it is possible, one would think the Spirit would often lead us to make some reference to the assembly in our preachings, not only for the sake of those brought up amongst us, but for souls brought in from outside, that we should let it be clear as to what the true church is. I believe we ought to make that clear whenever we can, in individual contact and otherwise, to disabuse people's minds of the idea that there could be such a thing as churches, in the sense of different denominations, they are simply human organisations who have no right to the name whatever. And I think it might help souls if we were more insistent that there is only one church. I am using 'church' now, because we need to use that word in speaking to people outside. They may not understand the word assembly, but there is only one church, the church of the Bible, and tell them a little about it. What do you think?

Rem. I think that is very good but very searching.

G.R.C. It might lead to exercise as to their responsibilities, relative to it.

Ques. I was going to ask about the use of the word 'calling' in 1 Corinthians 1. Would that bear on what you are saying, the thought of being conscripted, the call of God? It is an imperative call, is it not?

G.R.C. "Saints by calling".

Rem. And then "called into the fellowship of His Son" and so on.

G.R.C. Oh yes. As saints by calling we are set apart by the divine call, and then as you say, called into the fellowship. Do you think that would have some link with the "20 years old" -- speaking spiritually? I suppose if we take up the privilege, there should be in some measure the ability to take up the responsibility of defence.

Ques. Does not the work of God respond in a

dignified way to the call? It speaks of the going forth to military service, "all that go forth to military service".

G.R.C. It is a dignified idea, it suggests a measure of spiritual manhood, not the thirty years old of the Levites, but sufficient development in manhood to defend the testimony.

Ques. Joseph is referred to in Hebrews as calling to mind the going forth of the sons of Israel, and he gives commandment concerning his bones. Was he not a man who was under commandment in relation to the testimony?

G.R.C. He certainly was.

Rem. In keeping with the wonderful thought of God abiding with us, what you are saying about the testimony shows how broad that must be too. Sometimes the testimony has been confined to the preaching of the Word, but every meeting, as you are suggesting, has a testimonial side, as well as every part of a believer's house and life. And then your reference to the comprehensive character of the preaching of the Word, too, would show how vast and wide is the testimony in keeping with the great thought of God dwelling with us.

G.R.C. That is very helpful, so that, as you say, every meeting, and every part of our lives stands related to the testimony of God.

Ques. Would you say something more about this second month and second year? It is not the first month and the first year.

G.R.C. It may be that would enter into our development as to "twenty years old", they had had a year's experience of the grace of God when He met them in their murmurings in Exodus, without rebuke, and then they had had the experience, the exhilaration of seeing the sanctuary, the offering of the people, and the setting of it together, and God taking up His residence, and then they had had all the unfoldings in Leviticus.

Ques. Might not the beginning of Romans 12 come into this matter, beseeching them by the compassions of God to present their bodies a living sacrifice? So that every person is completely surrendered to the will of God in this matter.

G.R.C. I think so, the good and perfect and acceptable will of God.

Ques. I would like to ask in regard to the setting in Numbers, is it not a fact that there were none feeble among their tribes? But amongst us now, there is very much feebleness, surely, and physical sickness too; there are some that would like to be at such occasions as this, and are hindered through sickness; and there is a great deal of feebleness, both spiritual and physical amongst us at the present time, which it appears was not among the people in Numbers. Can you help us as to that?

G.R.C. In the early part of Numbers we have things set out in perfection according to the mind of God. As you proceed in the book you find that weakness comes in, and failure, so that we have to face that kind of thing. We need first of all to get a view in the early chapters, from which we have read, of the mind of God, so that we get this clearly before us, the organisation, if I might use the word, of the "holy nation".

Ques. Was that seen at Pentecost?

G.R.C. It was, in a beautiful way, and I suppose it was seen at Ephesus.

Ques. Some of the physically sick amongst us are the Lord's best warriors, are they not?

G.R.C. Quite so. Timothy was not a strong man, was he? The scripture speaks of frequent illnesses in connection with him.

Ques. What would you say as to the person to whom Jehovah spoke? It says, "He spoke to Moses ... And with you there shall be a man for every tribe". Does God speak generally; and does He speak

too, specifically, through specific servants today?

G.R.C. Yes He does, Moses primarily, and then Aaron as linked with him, the priestly side, the sympathetic side, and then a man for every tribe I suppose would suggest what is local, because leadership is also needed locally.

Rem. What is held universally to be held in every locality representatively you mean.

G.R.C. That is right.

Rem. I was wondering if, by way of the princes, the regulation that you spoke of is brought down to us in our localities?

G.R.C. That is good, and it is a very important matter. As we are saying, the military side involves our locality and households, and that our tents are pitched relative to the tabernacle; so it would cover every item of our lives. We are never off duty as soldiers. Now as to the thought of appointment, in verse 50 of chapter 1 it says "But thou, appoint the Levites over the tabernacle of testimony", and the word is used relative to the priests in chapter 3, verse 10, "And Aaron and his sons shalt thou appoint that they may attend to their priest's office".

Ques. The question of movement is in mind here is it not, "When the tabernacle setteth forward"?

G.R.C. Yes, does it not cover both aspects? They were over all the vessels thereof, and all the things that belonged to it. Then there is the bearing of it, the encamping round about the tabernacle. So while a good deal is said here to cover the journeys, yet when it was stationary they were to encamp around it, in verses 52 and 53.

Rem. I was wondering whether, even in regard to the first passage as to the matter of conscription, the passage has in mind that the saints are to move together in relation to every movement of the testimony of God; and whether conscription would ensure that we move together in relation to all matters!

G.R.C. Yes, and there divine sovereignty operates. If we truly accept conscription we shall surely accept divine sovereignty as to where we are placed. Judah moved first; it was not in order of birth that they moved, the camp of Judah was to take the lead; so that in every way God orders things. You get a similar idea with the Levites; that although in the numbering in chapter 3, Gershon comes first, and then Kohath and Merari -- because Gershon was the eldest of the family -- yet Kohath has the most exalted service. So we have to be prepared for divine sovereignty.

Ques. What is the thought of the Levites in verse 53 of chapter 1? They are to encamp round about the tabernacle of testimony, "that there come not wrath upon the assembly of the children of Israel; and the Levites shall keep the charge of the tabernacle of testimony"?

G.R.C. The military side is in the beginning of chapter 2, "round about the tent of meeting afar off, opposite to it, shall they encamp". That is to say as military men, relative to our own houses and so on, we are not to intrude our own affairs; we stand in relation to the tabernacle, for its defence; but we do not intrude our own affairs, our household stuff or anything of that sort into the service. Those immediately around the tabernacle are the Levites, to keep the charge; they are under charge to, in every way, guard -- that word has been used -- the habitation of God.

Ques. Having a more intimate position than the military. Is it interesting that in Exodus 6, the Spirit of God stops at the generation, "the sons of Levi according to their generations"? Reuben, Simeon, Levi, then nothing more. I wondered if God had reached His prime end in the Levite?

G.R.C. That is good. And in chapter 3, as no doubt you have noticed, it begins with "these are the

generations of Aaron and Moses", putting Aaron first, and does not enlarge on Moses. It goes on to develop the generations of Aaron, he was of the tribe of Levi of course, he was the head of the tribe. But when the whole tribe of Levi, in verse 6, are brought near and presented, Moses presents them before Aaron the priest, showing that all levitical service is to be under priestly direction, primarily under the direction of Christ as Priest.

Ques. The passage in Romans 12 has been alluded to as bearing upon conscription. Would 1 Corinthians 12, especially the end of that chapter, bear on appointment, divine sovereignty entering into it?

G.R.C. Quite so. We have to extend it of course to all the saints, as it says earlier in that chapter, God has set the members in the body according as it has pleased Him. Then you have the special gifts at the end, set in the assembly, but then even in the body God has set the members there as it pleased Him.

Ques. Would you say what we are to understand by appointment? It seems to be here something rather compensatory to not being numbered.

G.R.C. They were numbered later from a month old and upward, but not numbered with the rest; this was a special appointment. But in our case we, as Christians, are not only all conscripted as soldiers, but we are all of the tribe of Levi. Yet the point is do we value the appointment? In secular callings, men are on the look-out for appointments.

Ques. In what way does Paul use the word, in both the first and the second epistles to Timothy, where he says, "I have been appointed" a herald, and so on?

G.R.C. I think that would bear on this. What an appointment Paul had! He was appointed a herald and an apostle and a teacher of the nations in faith and truth; what scope, a teacher of the nations, not simply believers! He would have in mind, of course,

that the nations are to become believers, but I was thinking of the scope of it in both epistles.

Ques. What would you say as to persons being appointed, and our having confidence in persons who are appointed?

G.R.C. Do you mean that if it is the Lord's appointment we should have confidence?

Rem. I was wondering how we could distinguish persons who have a sense, like Paul did, of being appointed, and then the question of confidence on our side in them.

G.R.C. Well, that is an important point, because Paul could speak of his appointment, he was quite sure of it; and every spiritual person would be sure of it, but some at Corinth did not seem so sure of it. We too, ought to know our appointments. But then there is a sense in which the appointment applies to all of us. I bring that in because one has a desire that all of us, especially the young people, should value this idea of appointment. It is something special; to be a Levite is something special, and yet we are all Levites according to the divine thought; and we have been numbered from a month old and upward in view of it.

Ques. In referring to the household of Stephanas, Paul speaks of them as devoted, which means appointed, does it not, as the note says, 'an officer to a regiment'.

G.R.C. That is good.

Ques. Would the idea of appointment go along with the blessing of Levi? "They shall teach Jacob thine ordinances, and Israel, thy law: they shall put incense before thy nostrils, and whole burnt offerings upon thine altar".

G.R.C. That includes the priest as well, the whole tribe of Levi is in mind there. There are the two appointments relative to the tribe, the tribe as a whole appointed, according to what we have here, over all

the tabernacle, and over all the vessels thereof and over all the things that belong to it; they were to bear it, and serve it, and encamp around it. But then there was the special appointment to the office of priest, which, I suppose, is an exceedingly high office that we have been appointed to. What one is concerned about is that we should value these appointments. You see the holy nation as organised according to this book, with God as the Centre. Our concern should be divine appointments, not appointments down here, not appointments to high positions in this world. God may order it that way, Daniel was appointed to a high position which he did not seek at all, God can do that kind of thing if it is needful for the testimony. In Corinth, a man had been appointed as steward of the city, Erastus; that was in God's ordering, Erastus was steward of the city. But if you see where his name comes in in the list in Romans 16 it would leave you with the idea that while he would use his position for God, he was not making any boast of that at all. That was not the appointment that he valued in the full sense, for at the end of Romans 16, which we might regard to some extent as a levitical chapter, in verse 22, we get Tertius, who I suppose was a slave -- "I Tertius, who have written this epistle, salute you in the Lord. Gaius, my host and of the whole assembly, salutes you". I would assume Gaius was a man of property, for he had room for the whole assembly, he salutes you, and "Erastus, the steward of the city, salutes you, and the brother Quartus" -- that is another slave. So that a slave comes in first, and then two men who have some distinction in this life, and then another slave, the brother Quartus, and they were very happily together in the fellowship, they were all soldiers, all conscripted, and all appointed, appointed as Levites. That would be the appointment they valued, Erastus would value his appointment as a

Levite; it would have no comparison in his mind with his appointment as steward of the city, no comparison at all; the great appointment from this standpoint was the divine appointment -- that in the holy nation he, a Levite, had been appointed with this special charge over the tabernacle and over its vessels.

Ques. When the apostle says to Timothy "Take thy share in suffering as a good soldier of Jesus Christ", is that the military side? But then he says also "This charge my child Timotheus I commit to thee according to the prophecies as to thee preceding", 1 Timothy 1:18, would that be the levitical rather?

G.R.C. I would say that. I think that is very helpful. "This charge I commit to thee" I believe is the whole charge of the tabernacle of testimony and would include the Levite and the priest, the whole charge.

Ques. Is it of note that in 1 Chronicles 9 the matter is carried forward by Ezra in the day of recovery, so that he refers to those who had been appointed in trust, or on account of their faithfulness, and the levitical section there is full of the idea of appointment?

G.R.C. I am glad you have mentioned that, we will have to look into that in our private time, because this idea of appointment impresses me greatly.

Rem. I referred to it because faithfulness is added to the matter.

Rem. And following on what Mr. H. has said, by the last words of David, the age limit was reduced for the Levites. Did not J.T. say that that would greatly increase the number available. Might that bear on our time, the valuing of the appointment that is available?

G.R.C. I think so. And I think in that way we have to distinguish between the military -- as a soldier I am there to defend, I am there to defend the testimony against all attack -- and the Levites who

have a positive charge, and a most marvellous charge. They are over the tabernacle of testimony and all its utensils, they are responsible to keep it all unsullied, and intact, to take it down to a new encamping place and to put it up again, in order that the priestly service might not be hindered in any way. They were given to the priests, they move under the priest's direction, and their whole outlook would be to keep the tabernacle of testimony so pure and unsullied that as soon as the encampment took place the priests could function, and God would have His portion. Now that is the charge committed to us. Do we value the appointment? One would like to raise the question with all of us, especially the young people, that this far surpasses any appointment you could get down here. God may give you something down here in His government, or he may not; that is a secondary matter; but this great charge is open to everyone in their measure, to serve as a Levite, and to take up the charge as appointed by God, and then over and above that, what is greater still, Aaron and his sons were appointed to the priest's office. That is the greatest office you could imagine, greater than any Prime Minister's office.

Ques. The apostle says in 1 Corinthians 4:9, "For I think that God has set us the apostles last as appointed unto death". Is that not striking, coming in the Corinthian epistle?

G.R.C. It is very affecting, because evidently the testimony required that divine appointment, the testimony required that the apostle should be appointed unto death. And of course we do not know what the appointment might be for us.

Ques. Would it help if you would say a word as to the distinction between the levitical and the priestly side of the service?

G.R.C. Perhaps we ought to begin by speaking about the priests, because that word in chapter 3,

verse 10, is striking. "And Aaron and his sons shalt thou appoint that they may attend to their priest's office". That is a great thing to attend to; I am not belittling the Levites, but the priest is the greatest thought. Now how far are we attending to the priest's office? We are all of the priestly family, but are we attending to the priest's office; that is the first thing, because if we are not attending to the priest's office we shall not be able to serve effectively as Levites. They serve under the direction of the priests, and with the priestly service in view; nor shall we value sufficiently what we are to defend as soldiers. So it is of the utmost importance that we should realise that we have been appointed to the highest office, the priest's office, and we are to attend to it.

Rem. And the scripture makes no division between the priests, the sons of Aaron, and the office. It says "they may attend to their priest's office".

G.R.C. You mean the close link with Christ?

Rem. Yes, their priest's office would suggest the dignity conferred upon them, and that they cannot be separated from it. We may elect ourselves out of this, but scripture says "their priest's office".

G.R.C. Very good.

Ques. Had John that in mind in Revelation chapter 1, when he speaks of Him "that loves us and has washed us from our sins, and has made us a kingdom, priests unto His God and Father".

G.R.C. I think the idea of a kingdom is set out in these early chapters of Numbers. It helped me many years ago, when J.T. referred to these early chapters of Numbers as the present view of the kingdom of God, God dwelling amongst His people, and having absolute rights to regulate the whole of their lives like a king regulates the nation. So we are a kingdom, but then the highest office in the kingdom from this standpoint is priesthood.

Ques. Does a priest always think as God thinks,

or is exercised to do it at any rate, always thinking from God's point of view?

G.R.C. Yes, and he has to maintain the service; it says in chapter 3, verse 38 "And those who encamped before the tabernacle eastward, before the tent of meeting toward the sunrising, were Moses and Aaron and his sons, who kept the charge of the sanctuary". They kept the charge of the sanctuary, not simply the tabernacle of testimony as a whole, but specially the sanctuary, because the Levites were not allowed to touch anything in the sanctuary, the priests had to go in and cover everything before the Levites could come in, but they had charge of the sanctuary, and it has often struck me, as to their encampment, that they were immediately at the east of the tabernacle, so that as a priest began the day, he would look out; on the one side there was the sunrising -- the Lord's coming would be in his mind -- and on the other the tabernacle of testimony. And how happily the priest would immediately, as his first duty, as it were, take up the priestly service, put the incense on the golden altar, and offer the oblation on the brazen altar!

Ques. So would the local brethren be the priestly family? Is the sanctuary worked out in our localities?

G.R.C. It is. We should all pitch our tents as priests, on the east side of the tabernacle, all our tents should be pitched there. In a secondary way we pitch our tents as Levites, we have got that responsibility too. Thirdly we pitch our tents relative to the defence of the testimony. We are in all these positions.

Ques. Does the term "attend to it" involve that things are done effectively in the Spirit? The service of God is not approached in a perfunctory manner.

G.R.C. I am sure that is right. We need to do it in the Spirit as you say, and to do it with application, apply ourselves to it, to attend to the priest's office, to see that the priestly service is maintained, the

continual burnt offering, the continual incense, and all that is requisite is maintained every day.

Rem. Samuel was called into this matter very early in life -- I was thinking of your reference to those who are younger. Would it not be an encouragement to all to see that they can have a part in this matter?

G.R.C. I am sure it would. And it is encouraging that saints who are physically disabled are not disqualified from the priest's office, the highest service remains open to them; they can attend to the priest's office, in fact they have more time for intercession.

Ques. You spoke earlier of the kingly priesthood in 1 Peter 2. Would the holy priesthood to offer up spiritual sacrifices be the highest character, and more what you have in mind now?

G.R.C. Yes, and then there is the other side, because, as it says, the priest's lips should keep knowledge, they seek the law.

Rem. Yes, I was thinking of that passage. He is the messenger of Jehovah of hosts.

G.R.C. And we would like Mr. B's remarks on priests and Levites.

Rem. One was only thinking of the immediate access to God that the priests have, and the force of anointing as specially bearing on the priests.

G.R.C. Yes, Exodus chapter 40 makes that clear, that the anointing shall be to you an everlasting priesthood; it is a beautiful thought, that we are priests in virtue of the anointing.

Ques. Would the priests always be on the alert for the approach of the stranger?

G.R.C. You mean it says, "the stranger that cometh near shall be put to death".

Ques. Is it remarkable that in days of recovery we get the thought of a teaching priest, as bearing upon the Levites? I was thinking of what you were speaking of the priestly office as being the greater; would not

all levitical service be done in a priestly way, having the thoughts of God for His people in mind?

G.R.C. I am sure. I feel it is very important to see that all priestly service is under the direction of the priest -- Aaron himself primarily. But Christ Himself is the priest. Then Aaron's sons; so that what is priestly in us takes precedence, that is, in all that we do levitically we are thinking of God, and what is suitable to God, and that the praise of God should ever increase in volume and quality.

Ques. Would it help to be reminded that true priestly service really flows from the liberty and intelligence of a son? Does that help, and would it not encourage the youngest to come forward in it?

G.R.C. That is of the utmost importance; sonship is a relationship, priesthood is an office. God has been pleased to appoint His first born sons to the highest office, the office of priests. J.T. said as to "Israel is my son, my firstborn, let my son go that he may serve me" -- how does he serve? As a priest. Where does he serve? In the tabernacle. Sonship lies behind it all.

Rem. So that we really see the pattern in the beauty and fulness of it in the Lord Jesus Himself as the Son, do we not?

G.R.C. We do. That is a very important thing, that Hebrews brings out, that the Lord Jesus Himself is the Son.

Ques. Is it not important that in relation to Christ as great High Priest, the whole tabernacle system was anointed with oil without the application of blood?

G.R.C. Yes it was, it gives Him His unique position; but later, after the consecration, then the oil and the blood is sprinkled on Aaron and his sons. It is wonderful grace that He has gone in on a basis on which He can link us with Him.

Rem. I wondered if the military side, and the Levitical side, and the priestly side are not beautifully

blended in Paul and Silas in Acts 16. I was thinking of the military side as dealing with the woman, "I enjoin thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her", that is military, and then they were engaged in levitical service, but they ended on a priestly note.

G.R.C. Very good indeed, and then the priestly note having been effective, praying and praising God with singing, they go back to levitical service in all the freshness of priesthood, speaking the word of the Lord to the jailor.

Ques. By way of contrast, in relation to this question of appointment which one feels very, very important, is it not remarkable that in Luke chapter 22 the disciples wanted to do the appointing, whom they held to be the greatest, is there not something instructive for us in that?

G.R.C. Yes, that would be an ever present danger I suppose, but in the way we are speaking of it, this appointment in its measure is open to us all; but then, as you say, sovereignty enters into the actual work allotted, because in chapter 4, verse 19, as to the Kohathites, it says "Aaron and his sons shall go in and appoint them everyone to his service and to his burden". And then again in verse 27 "ye shall appoint unto them in charge all their carrying". So that in the detailed working out of it all is divine sovereignty; while we are all favoured in this appointment, yet we cannot choose our work, it is all in divine sovereignty that the work is given; we cannot choose other people's work for them.

Ques. Should we all covet to have a sense of commission for anything we put our hand to?

G.R.C. I am sure we should. It speaks in chapter 4, verse 3 of "all that enter into the service, to do the work in the tent of meeting"; it is a work, and we should have the sense as to what we are appointed to do. But then first of all we need to value the idea of appointment, that is what one would like to leave

upon our spirits, what is really governing our outlook in life? What are we seeking after? Is it some great appointment in our secular life down here? Have we really grasped the fact that the greatest possible appointments have been made by God, and He has appointed us as Levites, in charge over the tabernacle of testimony? What are we doing about that? We may waste our lives seeking an appointment down here, and never take up the charge that we have been appointed to by God. And then we have been appointed to the priest's office. These are the greatest favours conferred upon man in the sphere of testimony.

Ques. Is the principle seen in Mark 3, where it says of the Lord that He went up into the mountain and called whom He Himself would, and they went to Him, and He appointed twelve that they might be with him, and that He might send them to preach and have power to heal diseases, and to cast out demons. Would the principle extend to us?

G.R.C. The general principle. The twelve were special of course, and what is special is allowed for in what our brother referred to at the end of 1 Corinthians 12. There is what is special, but the principle of it extends, as these chapters show, the tribe of Levi were all appointed, and their various work and burdens were appointed to them.

THE PASSOVER IN THE WILDERNESS

Numbers 9:1 - 17; Numbers 10:11 - 13

G.R.C. We were occupied this afternoon with the ordering of the camp, God having come down to dwell among His people, and ordering every detail of their lives relative to Himself and His habitation, and we finished in considering specially the appointments, the honour of being appointed as Levites over the tabernacle and over all its utensils, and having the charge of it, and then, what is higher still, the honour of being appointed to the priest's office, to which Aaron and his sons were to attend. They were to attend upon their priest's office, and how an understanding of those appointments would eclipse in our thoughts and affections anything that the world could offer. The world may offer its appointments, but God has given us the highest possible appointments, and they are the things to apply ourselves to from our earliest days; for the Levites were numbered from a month old and upwards. As to the priests, it does not give any age; they were simply numbered as of the priestly family; they are the great appointments to keep in mind. And what follows, one would think, is what is necessary if we are to be preserved in priestly and levitical energy. That is, in chapter 5 we are to be ready continually to submit to the trial of jealousy, as to the purity of our affections, whether we are in any way being led astray by what is worldly and earthly. In other words, whether in any way the scene around is becoming anything other than a wilderness to us. The book opens with God speaking in the tent of meeting in the wilderness. The moment the world becomes anything but a wilderness we are

in very great danger; if the world is a wilderness to us it will be because our affections are held for God and His things. And if the world is simply a wilderness we cannot have ambitions connected with it. Mr. Darby said, "This world is a wilderness wide, I have nothing to seek or to choose".

And so, if we think of Paul at the end of his life, in 2 Timothy, we see how his priestly energy was undimmed, for "the testimony of our Lord" governed him on the one hand, and the appearing of Christ on the other -- like the priests who encamped at the east side of the tabernacle; it was between the sunrising on the one side, and the tabernacle of testimony on the other. And those were the only two things that Paul was concerned about. That is, the priestly outlook; they are the only two things that matter, the Lord's appearing which is imminent, and on the other hand, that the tabernacle of testimony is here, the testimony of our Lord is still here. And so we need to be prepared to submit to the trial of jealousy on the one hand, and on the other hand to be committed to the Nazarite's vow, in chapter 6. Chapters 5 and 6 therefore vitally follow the ordering of the camp. I think those two things would keep and preserve us in spiritual energy, because the Nazarite separates himself from wine and strong drink; he not only separates himself from what is unclean, but from wine and strong drink; that is, he makes a vow not to be stimulated by anything that is down here. All his stimulation is in God, and the things of God, "The God of gladness of my joy", as the Psalmist says.

Then if we look at the beginning of chapter 7 for a moment, the dating goes back to the first day of the first month, on the day that Moses had completed the setting up of the tabernacle, and had anointed it. So there is a backward look as to the dedication of the altar, the princely actions of the people; and in chapter 8 the lighting of the lamps, and

the Levites offered as a wave offering. Then we come to chapter 9; and again we are back in the first month, "Jehovah spoke to Moses in the wilderness of Sinai in the first month of the second year after their departure from the land of Egypt". This timing is important because it shows us that the celebration of the passover was the background, as it were, of the numbering. The numbering was on the first day of the second month, and on the fourteenth day of the first month they had celebrated the passover, not now in Egypt but in the wilderness; and I think we need to see the importance of that as that which would provide the moral background in the incentive to submit to the numbering and the ordering of the camp.

That is the first thing I think we should consider this evening -- the bearing of the passover on what has gone before in the ordering of the camp; and then the question of the unclean persons, and the provision made for them in the second month. It was humbling that there should be unclean persons, and yet their exercises were right and in effect it meant that the passover was before the minds of the people all through this period, from the fourteenth day of the first month right through to the fourteenth day of the second month -- right on till the time they began to journey the passover would be before their minds. But we may get some help from the Spirit as to the bearing of the passover in this setting, and the instruction that is available in connection with those unclean.

Ques. Is the apostle, giving a backward look in 1 Corinthians 5 when he calls attention again to "For also our passover Christ has been sacrificed"?

G.R.C. I thought so. I think we have to see the difference between the celebration of the passover in Egypt and in the wilderness: and 1 Corinthians 5 is the wilderness setting of it. As we know, the passover

was celebrated in Egypt, and then as a memorial in the wilderness, and then in the land.

Ques. Will you say another general word about those three settings please?

G.R.C. It seems to me that in Egypt itself the people would be considering their own need and their own peril, and although the rights and ordinances of it are given there -- for instance they were to feed on the lamb roast with fire -- and it says "ye shall eat none of it raw, nor boiled at all with water, but roast with fire; its head with its legs and with its inwards". While they were to do that, and did it, yet they ate with haste; and it is just a question as to how far in soul history, at a time like that, the extent to which persons can truly appropriate the passover, they do appropriate it, they did eat it, but not with the appreciation one would judge, with which they would do it in Numbers 9.

Rem. I am sure what you are saying is right; we would like some help on this extended view in the wilderness and then in the land.

Ques. Would the passover eaten in the wilderness give more of an assembly view of it, and assembly experiences entering into it?

G.R.C. Yes, I would say that. God had the assembly in mind in the passover, because it is the first time the word assembly is used, I think, in scripture, "Speak to the whole assembly of Israel", Exodus 12.

Ques. Does it seem from chapter 9: 1 that this instruction as to the passover was one of the very early matters that God spoke of after the tabernacle had been set up?

G.R.C. Yes. It would appear that the tabernacle was set up, and then on that day the princes began to offer -- the dedication of the altar -- which would take twelve days, and then very soon after that God would be speaking about the passover, in view of being observed on the fourteenth day.

Ques. Would Romans 3 for us be the passover as in Egypt? I am thinking of the quality of what is set forth in the blood of Christ.

G.R.C. It refers there to the blood on the mercy seat, really taking us to the centre, but one great point in the passover is that God was securing His firstborn. That is something that in a way is unique to the passover, from their side they were going to be shielded from judgment, delivered from bondage, but from God's side He was securing His firstborn. So immediately after the beginning of Exodus 13, He says: "Hallow unto me every firstborn ... it is mine". That was God's thought in the passover.

Ques. Hebrews tells us that Moses celebrated the passover in Egypt, not that they did it. Is there any point in that?

G.R.C. I would think perhaps that it is just a question as to how far the people, who were on the point of leaving Egypt, can appreciate the bearing of it. They do eat it, in their measure; but I would say that when we arrive at Numbers 9 our appropriation will be very much greater -- our ability to understand the meaning of the feeding on the lamb roast with fire, its head and its legs with its inwards, and the way it would result in active firstborn affections in us.

Ques. Is that why the time is counted from their departure out of the land of Egypt, not the time they have been in the wilderness exactly, but the time counting back to their departure from the land of Egypt?

G.R.C. Quite so, and I think in a way the whole of the wilderness journey is linked up in that way with their departure from the land of Egypt, because in chapter 33, where it enumerates their journeys, it calls their journeys "their goings out", there the point is that in every journey they were learning to judge Egypt more fully, and were more remote from it in heart and spirit until of course they are over Jordan,

when, at the circumcision the second time, the reproach of Egypt was rolled away.

Ques. Would one aspect of recognising the world as a wilderness provide us with unhurried and restful condition of mind and heart in which we may fully appreciate what God has done in the passover?

G.R.C. I wondered that. So in these passages it is called in verse 7 the offering of Jehovah at its set time, and in verse 13 "he presented not the offering of Jehovah at its set time". Actually, according to Leviticus 23, there was not only the passover lamb slain and eaten, but there was the offering by fire to Jehovah that followed it, for seven days; that did not take place in Egypt.

Ques. Does it not show that God would have us to consider the moral side of righteousness right through our course, whether it be individual or assembly?

G.R.C. Yes, because the passover brings freshly to us the rights of God, His complete and absolute rights over us. We have been redeemed and purchased, as the song in Exodus 15 says; and therefore you can see what influence the celebration of the passover on the fourteenth day of the first month would have on them -- the accepting of divine order and divine sovereignty. The passover would prepare the people for that if they truly appropriated it; they would be ready for anything that God directed, not in any grudging way, but ready for it in the affections of the firstborn. In all that God orders, He is counting on the affections of the firstborn to carry them out.

Ques. Would the passover in Egypt be a matter of God judging sin, whereas here it seems to be the feature of uncleanness. Would that require deeper exercise relative to their wilderness life?

G.R.C. Yes, because in Egypt I suppose everything was unclean, but now that God is dwelling among His people there seemed to be sensibilities

awakened among these men. God had come down and was dwelling in the camp; the people were encamped around Him; they were not yet ordered, they were about to be ordered. But in view of God's presence among them there should be sensibilities as to His holiness; there were men who were unclean through the dead body of a man and could not hold the passover on that day.

Ques. Does the appropriation of Christ in His unmitigated suffering not only secure a suited response from our hearts, but does it, do you think, develop these holy sensitive feelings so needed by us?

G.R.C. I think it would profoundly affect us, if we were to feed in restful conditions upon what it means -- that the lamb was roast with fire, with the head and the legs and the inwards. I think it is only in connection with the passover -- as far as I remember -- that we are permitted to appropriate the inwards. In the offerings the inwards were placed on the altar for God; but it is a wonderful thing that we are to appropriate the passover truly -- first, the perfection of the One, in His head and His legs and His inwards. What a contemplation! But their bearing on us is, that He took our place relative to our heads and our legs and our inwards.

Ques. Does the apostle bring that forward in Corinthians, "Ye are not your own, ye are bought with a price; glorify now then God in your bodies"?

G.R.C. What a price has been paid!

Ques. Would it promote strength and energy for movement? I was thinking of the way the first movement of the cloud follows closely upon these men in their seven days of unleavened bread, in fact the seven days would almost appear to merge in the movement.

G.R.C. That is very striking. In the first place, the feeding on the lamb roast with fire, during that night, no doubt gave them strength for the initial

move out of Egypt. Now, in view of movement in an orderly way through the wilderness the passover comes in again; it seems as though the passover in the wilderness would give us strength for continuous movement whenever the cloud moves. There is the alertness of the affections of the firstborn. Our affections are kept fresh in firstborn energy for God, so that we are ready on the one hand for His ordering as to the camp in divine sovereignty, in each of the settings we have had before us today; and on the other hand we are alert and ready for movement. And of course the movement did take place. Think of how the Levites had to spring into activity and the priests were to sound the trumpets. Think of the work involved for the Levites as well as for the whole camp; but the Levites especially, for they were all to be ready. They, as of the tribe of Levi, who were taken instead of the firstborn, would be ready only as having appropriated the passover.

Ques. Will you say something further about the second year -- the first month of the second year, and then as to the second month of the second year? I was linking it on with other such scriptures as the second man out of heaven, the second bullock and the second year in Egypt. Is there something denoting spiritual increase in the second year?

G.R.C. I should think so. When you think of all that had taken place in the first year, all that had happened up to Sinai, and at Sinai, and the tabernacle; the work completed, the tabernacle erected, and God taking up residence on the first day of the first month of the second year; what a wonderful opening it was for the second year, God taking up His residence!

Ques. And is it a testing matter when God brings us on to more spiritual ground? I am thinking of these unclean persons coming to light in this setting. Is that what has taken place in our day, the level of

the truth has increased in our souls; and have we, any of us, been exposed as going on in a wrong way?

G.R.C. God coming to dwell among His people must make all the difference; the test becomes the supreme test then -- God dwelling -- and conditions must be suited to His dwelling. So the idea of uncleanness comes up in Leviticus in many ways; the need for dealing with it is apparent, because God is dwelling. And now you get a specific instance of it coming to light in the first month of the second year.

Ques. Could we apply this second month to the Corinthians after Paul had brought before them the truth as to the passover?

G.R.C. It would seem like it, as though the Corinthians would have to come in as a second month people.

Ques. Would you say that the provision of the second month in some sense brings the matter down to the days of recovery in which we have part?

G.R.C. That is what I thought. If you apply it generally, in these last days the truth of God dwelling amongst His people in these mixed conditions has been recovered -- the idea of the tabernacle of testimony -- the saints have been recovered to the truth of that, but then it has exposed to us all that we were unclean; for instance, take Sardis, "Thou hast a name that thou livest and art dead". So that even if we go back to Luther and the reformation; well, what has grown out of that is dead. And we have our links with a dead body. Of course, in other ways, we have had links too, but I am referring to the general situation; therefore 2 Timothy 2 comes in with a view to our days of recovery being in accord with the truth of the tabernacle of testimony and of God dwelling here.

Ques. Why is the characteristic word in Exodus 12 "eat", and the characteristic word in Numbers 9 "hold"? I was thinking that it can only be held when

God is dwelling with His people. They moved out of Egypt in haste, they should eat it with haste; but it is held amongst a circle where God is dwelling with His people.

G.R.C. So that this is not the initial leaving of Egypt, but the memorial of it in which we have a far greater appreciation of it than we could have had when we were occupied with getting away from the land of judgment.

Ques. Is it not put that way in Deuteronomy 16"for thou camest out of Egypt in haste -- that thou mayest remember the day in which thou camest out of the land of Egypt, all the days of thy life". It is to bring us back to our complete severance from Egypt, is it not?

G.R.C. Yes.

Ques. Would the keeping of the passover in Numbers 9 raise the question of finer sensibilities on the part of these men who felt they were disqualified, so that Moses inquires of God what to do?

G.R.C. Yes; and did not those sensibilities arise from the fact that God was dwelling amongst His people? There was the instinctive sense; and of course the teaching of Leviticus would enforce it, that God's dwelling, that the whole camp must be clean; in fact after the ordering of the camp chapter 5 of this book begins with the cleansing of the camp. Every unclean person was to be put out of the camp. So that that exercise arises the moment the soul gets a sense of standing related to God and His dwelling.

Ques. What is the significance of the expression that is used two or three times in regard to this matter, that it is "between the two evenings"?

G.R.C. I think in Deuteronomy 16 it is defined as at the going down of the sun. The going down of the sun, I take it, was between the two evenings -- the evening that closed one day and the evening that began the next.

Ques. Is the word so much repeated, "according to all that Jehovah had commanded Moses, so did the children of Israel", a word that is being stressed in our time? Paul said, "the things that I write to you, that it is the Lord's commandment". The spiritual would acknowledge that they are so.

G.R.C. Quite so. And the basis of those rights of God over us lies in the passover.

Ques. Why is there an emphasis on the unleavened bread and bitter herbs in the second month? It is not mentioned the first time.

G.R.C. It would be included in that they were to hold it according to all the rites thereof: "according to all the ordinances thereof shall ye hold it". But I would think that the emphasis on it in the second month is to show that even though it is partaken of in the second month the standard is by no means lowered; and in fact you would think that the unclean persons would need especially that side of it.

Ques. What kind of leaven are we particularly expected to meet in this wilderness setting? You helped us in London as to getting free of Egypt, and the danger of the leaven creeping in, the old leaven, and the leaven of malice and wickedness; I wondered if you could help us as to what we may expect particularly in the wilderness from which the passover feast and the unleavened bread would set us free.

G.R.C. I think it would be those items that you have mentioned, that Paul refers to in 1 Corinthians 5; that is, there is the old leaven, and the leaven of malice and wickedness. You will find the thing working in the book of Numbers. Take the rising of the band of Korah; there was the old leaven working, they would aspire to the priesthood, although Korah was a Levite, and the others were not even Levites.

Ques. Is it in your mind that in this passage there is no thought of any shelter from judgment involved, but it is an advance in the people appreciating what

the passover was to God as claiming a people for His service?

G.R.C. That is just what I had in mind.

Ques. Is it remarkable that in the case of the men who keep it the second month you have the word in verse 12, "nor break a bone thereof"? Is not that one of the highest references to the body of Christ, "Not a bone of him shall be broken" -- John's gospel? It has often impressed me that even in a gospel like John, which really belongs to recovery days, the blessedness of the One who is the passover comes before us. There is a good deal about the passover setting in John's gospel, and that is where we get the expression "not a bone of him shall be broken".

G.R.C. How are you applying that?

Rem. I thought that there was a certain advance in this second month.

Ques. Is not that quotation from the Psalm?

Rem. Very probably, but I wondered if it all set out the grace of the present moment, and the way things are made more precious to the saints in days of recovery!

G.R.C. Yes, but does not that expression occur in Exodus 12 as well?

Rem. Yes, verse 46.

G.R.C. I would like to get more clearly what is in your mind as to not a bone broken.

Rem. I thought it brought before us a sense of the blessedness and even deity of the Person Who is our passover. In the first instance it is just "according to all the rites of it, and according to all the ordinances thereof shall ye hold it". That is the first month, but when it comes to the question of the second month there is this verse included.

G.R.C. Yes.

Rem. I want to get this clear. There was only one passover, was there? But is not Numbers 9 a memorial? The Lord Jesus only died once.

G.R.C. Yes, this was the memorial of the passover, although it says the children of Israel shall hold the passover at its set time. It does not use the word memorial here, but in Exodus 12 it does, that it was to be held as a memorial; and I think it is in the memorial that there is the leisure to take in the meaning of it in a way that could not be done in Egypt. What has been said is the point that whereas in Egypt the people would be thinking of their need and the benefit they were going to get, here we are thinking of God's side, what God is getting from the passover, He is putting in His claims now; He has come down to dwell, and He is about to put in His total claims over the people relative to Himself as dwelling amongst them. Well, what an effect it would have upon them that they have just partaken of the passover before these claims are put in, on the first day of the second month, and not only so, but that the atmosphere of the passover was continuing. They would not forget that there were still those who, through uncleanness, had not partaken of it, and that they were going to partake of it in the second month. So that between these two partakings of the passover there is the ordering of the camp; but, it seems to me, that the influence of the passover covers the whole situation.

Rem. All one had in mind was the scripture in Hebrews: "By one offering he has perfected for ever the sanctified"; because Christendom has taken up the idea of a repetition of the sacrifice, whereas all we can have now is a memorial.

G.R.C. Quite so, but it does not alter the fact of the spiritual appropriation involved.

Ques. Are you thinking than an outcome of God dwelling among His people consciously, is that those people would have a deepening appreciation, as years went by, of the value of the sacrifice of Christ?

G.R.C. Yes; therefore as the years go by there

should be a deepening appreciation with us, and a deepening response in affections of firstborn sons to God. That was God's thought in the passover with the people in Egypt; they would be thankful of escaping from judgment; but God's point in the passover was that He was paying the price to secure the firstborn. And He was going to rely on the affections of the firstborn, relative to all the claims He was going to put in, as coming to dwell among them. He would rely on the affections of the firstborn to value all that has been before us this afternoon, and to readily respond to love's requirements.

Rem. So that the real gain of the passover is positive not negative -- what there is supremely for God.

G.R.C. That is the real thing. "Israel is my son, my firstborn".

Ques. Is the presentation of the offering of our God the recognition on the part of the firstborn of God's claims? God is before their souls, not their initial benefit from the passover.

G.R.C. That is just the thing. They are not thinking here of their benefit, as you say, it is the offering of Jehovah at its set time; it is what God is getting from it, and it really involves in the antitype the complete surrender of ourselves to God in the energy of firstborn affection.

Ques. In 1 Corinthians 10, after the exhortation to flee from idolatry, the apostle brings in the communion of the blood of the Christ, and the communion of the body of the Christ. Is that to be a lever in our souls in connection with this matter?

G.R.C. I am sure it is, and yet of course there is a distinction because that is relating to the altar; the altar had been set up and dedicated, that is the communion, they were committed to that, the fellowship. But God was about to put in His claims that were total; the thing is have we recognised that

God's claims over us are total, one hundred per cent? That if God comes down to dwell among His people He can ask for nothing less than a hundred per cent, a total claim over our spirits, souls and bodies and circumstances, everything as to our interests being secondary to His. That is what the ordering of the camp involved earlier; and what would give the lever for that I believe is the ever increasing appreciation of the passover, as bringing about in us what God had in mind for Himself from it -- the energy of firstborn affections. The other side that you speak of would flow out of this. The order had been dedicated but this now, the passover, and then God's claims following would mean that we are irrevocably committed to all that God has set up; we are committed to the tabernacle, we are committed to the altar, and to the fellowship; and we submit to God's ordering in everything.

Rem. God had said to Abraham at the outset that His people would leave Egypt with great property; that was not to be a personal property was it, but property to serve Him well with in all His interests.

G.R.C. That is it, so that He lays claim really to all that we have and all that we are.

Ques. Would you connect it with Paul's reference to being purchased with the blood of His own, the assembly? It is God's own property at such a cost. I wondered if our brother's reference to the Person would enter into that -- "not a bone of him shall be broken".

G.R.C. Yes, the blood of His own. The thought of purchase is very affecting. In the song of Exodus 15 you have redemption and purchase, both are by the blood. But in one case I suppose the redeemer has to think of the liabilities, and the cost of meeting the liabilities, but when you think of purchase, it is the value that the purchaser puts on that which he is acquiring, for Himself; and that is the touching side,

the assembly of God which He purchased; it is the value God put on the assembly.

Ques. Following the word as to the passover, and the exhortation "let us keep the feast", in 1 Corinthians 5, is it of interest that when we come to the close of the next chapter we have this word: "and ye are not your own for ye have been bought with a price, glorify now then God in your body"?

G.R.C. Yes, you are thinking of the price.

Rem. Yes, and I am thinking of this coming in following the sacrifice, "Christ our passover has been sacrificed". What a price we may say!

G.R.C. Yes, so that we are not only redeemed but purchased. We are not our own. We have been bought with a price, we belong to God, and we are to glorify God in our bodies, and that involves His total claims upon us.

Rem. The question of the keeping of the passover seems to be a most essential one, and it seems that there is a fuller provision made in divine grace for those who are unclean and who are exercised concerning the matter than those who are outwardly clean and have no concern in regard to the keeping of the passover. In that case it says "that that soul shall be cut off from among the people". What would you say about that?

G.R.C. I am glad you have taken us on to those two sides. Those who were unclean here were rightly exercised, and I suppose in that sense God valued the exercise, they realised they were unclean, and yet they say "Why are we kept back?" They were longing to be in the matter, "Why are we kept back, that we may not present the offering of Jehovah at its set time among the children of Israel?" They were not thinking of themselves -- what they were missing -- but the offering of Jehovah. And therefore you have the consideration and forbearance of God in connection with them.

Ques. Is it particularly encouraging that they not only are exercised about their uncleanness, but they own it?

G.R.C. Yes it is, "They said to him we are unclean by reason of the dead body of a man"; they knew it. We do not know how many other people did know it, but these owned it.

Rem. The wonderful grace of the dispensation comes out as we own matters.

G.R.C. Quite so. There is divine provision if we own matters.

Ques. Would you suggest in that way that there is a possibility of us being outwardly clean and yet not being self judged inwardly?

G.R.C. Yes; that is a very solemn thing. Here God says, "that soul shall be cut off from among his people". A person who is not inwardly moved at the idea of presenting -- "because he presented not the offering of Jehovah at the set time" -- a person who has no regard for God's claims over him, draws upon himself divine displeasure.

Rem. We would have to bear in mind that they were kept from eating. In current matters things have gone on, the brethren are still in fellowship who are unclean through a dead body; so we would have to make some distinction, would we not?

G.R.C. Yes we may come to that, in our later readings in this book.

Ques. What would you say about a dead body. Is it not a very illuminating expression? There is moral death in remaining in touch with it, is there not? And defiling of the camp would mean committing of the brethren to that, if one remains linked up with it.

G.R.C. I would not think these persons did.

Rem. I would judge that. I was only speaking of the seriousness of being linked up with a dead body, and the incumbency upon us all, if that is the state of affairs, to get clear as quickly as possible.

G.R.C. I would say these persons were unclean by reason of a dead body of a man, but it does not mean that they were still touching the dead body, they had come to a judgment of that; but there was a process of cleansing required.

Ques. Is not the point here that these persons were disqualified from eating the passover until they were clean?

G.R.C. Yes, that is the point.

Ques. Why is it that we have not the provision yet, for their becoming clean, until chapter 19?

G.R.C. Well there you get the statute relative to it; it comes later in the wilderness journey, the definite statute is in chapter 19, and perhaps bears specially on our day.

Ques. Why do you think that Moses felt a special enquiry of Jehovah was needed?

G.R.C. Would it be because no such situation had arisen before? What do you say about it?

Rem. I thought it showed the importance Moses attached to this matter of uncleanness.

G.R.C. Yes.

Rem. In the matter of the daughters of Zelophehad Moses had to look into the matter.

G.R.C. Yes, a very different exercise of course, but there again enquiry had to be made.

Ques. Would not the genuineness of the exercise of these men be seen at the end of verse 6, "they could not hold the passover"? It does not say they were debarred by anyone, but their own sensitiveness would give them to understand they were not fitted for the passover: "and they came before Moses and before Aaron on that day". I think it would show, as you have been saying, that there is genuineness of exercise and desire to do what is right, and I think you made some allusion to the fact that that is how the grace of the day of recovery operates.

G.R.C. If we apply it in that way as to the dispensation

we have all come in as second month men, because the case in Hezekiah's day bears on that, 2 Chronicles 30, where they kept the passover in the second month in a day of recovery, and at that time some of them even then were not purified. Not that we could make that as a reason for treating things lightly at all, but it is just the facts of the history.

Rem. But there was not any delay here, was there?

G.R.C. No, but in 2 Chronicles 30:2, it says "and the king took counsel and his princes, and the whole congregation in Jerusalem to hold the passover in the second month" -- they had not held it in the first month -- "for they could not keep it at that time because the priests had not hallowed themselves in sufficient number, neither had the people been gathered together to Jerusalem". So that both of the disqualifications were in force, that is the lack of hallowing, and also that they were afar off, which it mentions in Numbers 9:10 "anyone on a journey afar off". And that is where believers were found in the opening of this recovery, they were not only linked with what was unclean -- the dead bodies -- but they were afar off from God's centre.

Rem. I think if we understood that it would magnify grace to us.

G.R.C. Quite so. And then in Hezekiah's day they keep the passover on the second month, a very great congregation, in verse 13. And then in what follows it says, "for a multitude of the people, many of Ephraim and Manasseh, Issachar and Zebulun, had not cleansed themselves, and they ate the passover otherwise than it was written. But Hezekiah prayed for them", verse 18. And so God hearkened to Hezekiah and healed the people, and then they held the feast of unleavened bread seven days with gladness; and "the Levites and the praised Jehovah day by day, with instruments of praise to Jehovah". I only refer to that as bearing particularly

on the general position of this day of recovery.

Ques. And would not the delay between the first and second month result in a deeper exercise and greater yield?

G.R.C. I would think that is how it worked out through the goodness of God. The matter of the passover was kept before the people throughout this period of numbering and ordering; and then, as has been noted, on the twentieth day of the second month -- chapter 10: 11 -- the cloud was taken up. It is wonderful that God should move first on that day, all by that time had partaken of the passover, all were ready for movement.

Ques. Is there a test different in movement from dwelling? I know that the dwelling does not cease, but would the goings of God be reflected in the cloud?

G.R.C. Yes, it is God Himself moving. God Himself initiates the movement. And if we are in the gain of the passover we shall be ready for movement. As you say, movement tests us. In nature we would all like to settle down.

Ques. Do you connect it with the expression in 2 Corinthians "I will dwell among them and walk among them"? Is the walking among them a further exercise?

G.R.C. I thought so. We would like to move with God. God is moving, God is walking, and He would walk among His people. It is not His thought to leave His people behind.

Ques. You said earlier that when the cloud moved the priests and the Levites sprang into action and a good deal of energy and activity was taking place. Would you mind helping us as to how that would operate today?

G.R.C. To begin with, the priests would sound the alarm, or rather it says the silver trumpets were for the calling together of the assembly and for the

journeyings of the camps. And then in verse 5: "When ye blow an alarm, the camps that lie eastward shall set forward"; so that the priests needed to be on the alert all the time, and to sound the trumpets. But then at the sound of the trumpets it would mean the Levites all spring into activity, because the tabernacle had to be taken down, and had to be carried and re-erected.

Rem. That would involve very close working would it not? Does not Levi's name mean 'united'?

G.R.C. Yes. United in the sense of united to one another as Levites, and united to the priests.

Rem. I wondered in that way if it could be said that the passover was the basis of the relationships between God and the people; but not only so, it was the basis of their relationships with one another. Would you go as far as that? I was thinking it is a remarkable thing that in Egypt the people were all feeding upon the same food at the same time; would that not build up a constitutional unity amongst the saints?

G.R.C. It would, and the neighbourly element comes in relative to it, as to the feeding.

Ques. Does there seem to be some definite link between the eating of the passover and movement? In Exodus 12 they ate it with their loins girded; it was a move out of Egypt, but would it be like God to move when all the saints were ready -- having eaten of the passover in the second month?

G.R.C. It seems like that. The timing was the twentieth day of the second month; so that the second month passover had been partaken of, and the days of unleavened bread were almost completed.

Ques. So that whilst in one sense God's movements are entirely sovereign, and no one could anticipate them, does He take account of conditions amongst the saints in regard to His movements?

G.R.C. I am sure He does; because, after all,

God moved with them for 40 years; what patience there was in that, when it should have been eleven days journey!

Ques. Would there be a special glory about this initial movement, because everything was in perfection, at least, as regulated by the presence of God. Moses says in Deuteronomy, He shone forth. Would this not be one of the times of Him shining forth, so that there is something very glorious in the movement?

G.R.C. Do you think that normally each movement would bring a shining forth?

Rem. Some fresh, added glory, especially as the land was approached, for all these movements are credited with being eastward are they not?

G.R.C. Yes.

Rem. It says "so it was continually". Is not that so at the present time? God was going on continuously.

G.R.C. Yes, the cloud was there continuously even when the camp was stationary. But then in chapter 10: 11 the cloud was taken up from off the tabernacle of testimony. Then they set forward, and the note on the word 'journeys' there seems interesting -- 'according to their marching order'. Everything now being in order according to chapter 2. They were moving according to divine order. The numbering had taken place, and they were all in divine order.

Ques. John's ministry has been referred to earlier, is it not significant that he ends his ministry with warnings? I was thinking about this question of uncleanness and the basis of getting things right; he speaks about inaccurate statements going amongst the brethren, and then he says "little children keep yourselves from idols". And at the end of the Revelation he brings in the feature of adding to and taking away. I wondered if it had some link with this matter that we are on as to what is unsuitable coming in.

G.R.C. That is interesting, that John should warn us like that; we need warning.

Ques. Would the passover sharpen the spiritual vision and spiritual hearing of the saints, so that as the cloud moved the saints were alert and moved with God?

G.R.C. Yes, really the firstborn affections are there energetically. That is God's portion from the passover, the affections of the firstborn.

Ques. Would there be any moral link at all between the appearance of fire here, and the lamb roast with fire, in the passover? I wondered whether there was an abiding testimony to what was suitable to the presence of God, the fire reminding us of the severity of judgment seen in the death of Christ, and that the character of God is permanently before the people in the appearance of it by night?

G.R.C. So that our God is a consuming fire.

SINS OF INADVERTENCE

Numbers 15:1 - 5, 22 - 41

G.R.C. It is well to keep in mind the beauty of the first ten chapters of this book, which really are a section in themselves -- God having taken up His residence in the habitation prepared for Him in Exodus, and then having exercised His total rights in love over the people, relative to Himself and His habitation. The whole nation came under regulation and were conscripted for military service. And then there were the appointments; the Levites appointed over the tabernacle and over all its vessels -- the holy charge committed to them -- and the priests appointed to their high office; the word appointed being used in both cases. Aaron and his sons were to attend on their priest's office. Chapters 1 - 4 give the divine mind as to God's total rights in sovereignly placing us where He will relative to His testimony, and appointing us as He will in our levitical capacities -- and appointing us all to the priesthood. These are very great matters and demand our time and attention. Other matters being subsidiary to these; He would order our circumstances, and will take care of them. It is for us to let Him decide on those. We are to be concerned with what is due to Him and His habitation, that He should have circumstances suited to Himself. That is really the good and perfect and acceptable will of God.

In chapter 9 the passover comes in as the basis for God's complete claims over our affections. We have been bought with a price, and how great the cost has been; and now God counts on the affections of His firstborn, whom He has secured at such a cost,

to carry out all that He had commanded. Then there were those who were unclean and could not partake of the Passover in the first month, persons marked by uprightness in confessing their condition, and with longings to be right and to have their part in Jehovah's offering. We can be thankful for many who, in recent times, have been marked by uprightness of that kind in leaving unclean associations. And these chapters lead up to the first journey in marching order -- the glory and beauty of movement according to the due order as set out earlier. Those who had cleared themselves in chapter 9 would therefore in no way mar or hinder that movement; and that should be a lever with all of us, that we would do nothing to mar or hinder such movement. It is God Himself moving, and we want to be ready for the next movement; we want it to be unsullied -- to get the full light of the glory of the next movement. He says in Deuteronomy "ye have gone round this mountain long enough", Deuteronomy 2:3; and in chapter 1: 6, "ye have staid long enough in this mountain". God looks to us that matters should be finalised so that we are ready for movement in the glory and greatness of it as depicted in Psalm 68:7, "O God; when thou wentest before thy people when thou didst march through the wilderness", and where it speaks of "the goings of my God, my King, in the sanctuary", Psalm 68:24. There is not only a glory about the divine encampments and the service that goes in them, but a glory about the divine movements; and the one in chapter 10 is a glorious movement.

There was a certain failure with Moses as to wanting Hobab to go before them and be eyes to them, but the ark goes before them. No doubt Moses was thinking of his responsibility for the ark, but the ark took responsibility for the whole situation. So chapter 10 is most attractive. But then we have the dark background of chapters 11, 12, 13 and 14. In

chapter 11 the people murmured and lusted, and Moses himself failed, in chapter 12 Aaron and Miriam failed; and chapters 13 and 14 depict the great failure -- the people refusing the heavenly inheritance. It was the great and outstanding failure, proving that man in the flesh, our old man, has no taste for what is heavenly, what in God's mind is the best. All that is a dark background; failure on the part of the three leaders, failure with the people, so that it was proved that that generation could not go in. The new generation only would go in. The old man can have no place in the inheritance. But then chapter 15 shows that whatever may come in on our side, God is going on. In all these severe lessons of the wilderness, some are going to get the benefit; there are some, such as Caleb and Joshua, and those represented in the new generation, who will get the benefit. And God Himself is going on; so it says, "When ye come into the land of your dwellings". And furthermore, God uses the very background, the dark background, to bring out fresh thoughts that are in His mind, which those who judge the elements that have come to light would value; the very experiences gone through would prepare them to take in thoughts which they had not had before as to these offerings. They were to be accompanied by an oblation and a drink offering, and always in right proportion. How those who had judged what had intervened would value the oblation in a way that they never had before, the Man of God's pleasure, and what deep feelings would be in them, as represented in the drink offering.

But then, what was mainly in mind in this chapter begins at verse 22, as bearing on current exercises -- God providing in a new way for sins of inadvertence. He brings in what is additional to what was given in Leviticus 4, and the scope is very wide: "if ye sin inadvertently, and do not all these commandments, which Jehovah hath spoken unto Moses, all that

Jehovah has commanded you through Moses, from the day that Jehovah gave commandment, and henceforward throughout your generations". So that this covers everything, both up to that time and henceforward.

Ques. Do you think that the glory in chapter 10 provides a kind of divine standard by which every subsequent defection must be judged? There is a normality and a glory about chapter 10, is there not? The mount of Jehovah, and the cloud not only upon the tabernacle but over them -- in verse 34 -- as though the totality of the claims of God are seen and answered to, and subsequent defections judged in the light of that.

G.R.C. That is very good. "The cloud of Jehovah was over them". They were so identified with the tabernacle I suppose. And as you say there was in that chapter the recognition of the totality of God's claims, all was in order.

Ques. Why is it that such a glorious movement should be so immediately followed by these serious murmurings in rebellion?

G.R.C. Does it not show the incorrigibility of the flesh?

Rem. I was wondering if the movement of the testimony and all that it implies brings it out.

G.R.C. You mean that the flesh resents movement, it does not want to be disturbed.

Ques. And would there be great encouragement in the recognition that God never gives up His thought for His people? You remarked as to the verse: "when ye come into the land of your dwellings". There is no question with God but that His people will come into the land, is there?

G.R.C. No, that is what is so encouraging. God never gives up. He is going forward and He had resources to meet every situation, and He brings them out as required, so that all those in whom He was working, all who would be linked with a new generation

typically, would get benefit. Thus these very sad occurrences bring out on the one side what the flesh is. We recognised, doctrinally, at the Red Sea that our old man was crucified with Him; but we learn that experimentally in the wilderness the necessity for that. Now the old man does not at any point appreciate anything that is of God; the mind of the flesh is at enmity with God all along the line. But then while we have to learn that humbling side, it is a wonderful thing to learn what resources God has, and that He is going through in spite of everything.

Ques. Does the fact that He brings forward this teaching at this juncture -- which really applies to the land -- indicate that the new generation was coming to light? God could address them.

G.R.C. I think so. "When ye come into the land of your dwellings". We have spoken of God dwelling, but He was leading them to the land of their dwellings, and it was a land that they had despised in the previous chapter.

Ques. Is there an assertion of God's glory in verse 10 of the previous chapter? In spite of their failure, God is asserting His rights as to His unchangeable glory, "the glory of Jehovah appeared in the tent of meeting to all the children of Israel".

G.R.C. That is good.

Ques. Does Paul bring us to this point in chapter 10 of 1 Corinthians? He goes over these sorrowful matters; but he brings us in principle to the new generation, the assembly, and brings forward his ministry -- the whole outline, you may say, of the Pauline ministry, and every provision made in that setting.

G.R.C. That is very good. And so in verse 6 of that chapter he says "these things happened to them as types of us". So what benefit we can get from these passages!

Ques. Will you say a word as to the thought of verse 2, "When ye come into the land of your dwellings,

which I have given to you", and verse 18: "When ye come into the land whither I will bring you". Is that God carrying His thoughts through?

G.R.C. I think so. On the one hand, "When ye come into the land of your dwellings"; but on the other hand, if we get there from the divine side, it is God who has brought us there. None but God could bring us in. It says originally that He would bring them out and He would bring them in. But then there is our side of it, "When ye come"; that is our side of it. And Joshua and Caleb are the link of continuity as linking on with the new generation.

Ques. Is there any link in what you have said with Matthew's gospel? I was thinking of the refusal of the Lord's ministry and how He uses that dark background to develop new thoughts. And then in verse 31 of chapter 14 it says "But your little ones, of whom ye said they should be a prey". I was thinking of "your little ones", and how the Lord makes much of the little ones in Matthew's gospel in view of the assembly.

G.R.C. You are thinking of what the Lord says in chapter 11, these things hidden from the wise and prudent but revealed to babes, and then, later, the children in the temple.

Rem. Yes, and in Matthew 18 He sets a child in the midst.

G.R.C. I think we ought to move on to verse 22, and consider this section in its implications, the Spirit of God helping us, the grace that marks the section up to verse 29 -- but with the particular way the burnt offering is brought in with its oblation and with its drink offering. It is not mentioned in Leviticus 4; this is something God brings in at this juncture. But in the case of a sin of inadvertence, the first thing the whole assembly were to offer was a young bullock for a burnt offering, for a sweet odour to Jehovah; and its oblation, and its drink offering. So that what

comes earlier in the chapter is immediately applied here, even in the case of sorrow like this, where sins of inadvertence had come to light; yet they are to be taken up in the light of the burnt offering and its oblation and its drink offering; and then the sin offering. Then it comes down to the individual soul in verse 27. Afterwards, in verse 30, "the soul that doeth aught with a high hand". I think the contrast between verses 22 and 23, and verses 30 and 31, have to be noted, "the soul that doeth aught with a high hand".

Ques. Is it very gracious of God to regard matters among us, at least in the first place, as sins of inadvertence, although we ought to have known better?

G.R.C. Is that not a principle in the ways of God in His grace? The Lord Jesus on the cross said, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do". And then Peter in Acts, "I know that ye did it in ignorance, as also your rulers".

Ques. Would it be right to say that sins of inadvertence are not exactly sins of ignorance, but rather sins of in-alertness as to the facts and the situation?

G.R.C. I think that may be so. Peter uses the word ignorance, "I know that ye did it in ignorance, as also your rulers", Acts 3:17, and you get the idea attached to the Gentiles, "the times of ignorance God winked at", Acts 17:30.

Ques. But does not the thought of ignorance indicate rather the result of not being spiritually awake and alert?

G.R.C. I think that would be so, and that is the humbling side of it.

Ques. Would you say why in Leviticus 4 the sin of inadvertence is met with the sin offering, whereas here the burnt offering is brought forward?

G.R.C. The sin offering is also here in "one buck of the goats for a sin offering", but it is preceded by

the young bullock for a burnt offering and its oblation, and its drink offering according to the ordinance. I wondered if it is a wonderful provision of divine grace for the period after the great failures came in of chapters 11, 12, 13 and 14. The great failures had come in, and sentence had been passed on the old generation; now there is this provision with a view to the new generation, going into the land and getting through, as though God would assure us, in facing the humbling matter of sins of inadvertence, that nothing that happens in that way affects the acceptance of the whole assembly before Him. The whole assembly stands before God -- I am referring now to the assembly from the divine standpoint -- and subsists in its acceptance before God on the ground of the burnt offering. And as we think of that, with the background of the sins of inadvertence in our minds, it would draw out from us a very real appreciation of the oblation. The Man of whom the malefactor said, "This man has done nothing amiss", the perfection of Christ; and then "with its drink offering", that is, deep feelings from the very depths of our being would be promoted in appreciation of the way God has come out in Christ.

Rem. That would lead to the estimation of the sin being increased in our sight rather than any tendency to decrease it.

G.R.C. Yes. With that background of deep feeling, then the offering of the buck of the goats for a sin offering, what deep feeling there would be in that!

Ques. Would God delight to engage our hearts with Christ? The danger is of being diverted from God's main line, that He ever has Christ before Him, and would He have Christ maintained before Him in this worshipful spirit, the One in Whom there is perfection?

G.R.C. That is just so. So that really the matter is taken up in the spirit of worship, worshipping God

in the appreciation of Christ, and then how deep will be the appreciation of the sin offering.

Ques. And would that fortify against the possible recurrence of inadvertence?

G.R.C. I think so. We should be alert and sensitive.

Ques. Do you think it is important that it is spoken of as a sin -- "sin inadvertently"? When it says, in verse 30, "doeth aught with a high hand", the sin is obvious, so to speak; but when it is inadvertent, sometimes we may overlook the fact that it is sin.

G.R.C. Yes, and we must not do that. We must recognise that it is sin, otherwise we shall not appreciate in the way that we should do, either the burnt offering or the sin offering. We shall not come to a right estimate of either.

Ques. Will you say something as to the absence of the sin offering in David's sin? When he numbered the people he offered the burnt offering, and he offered peace offerings, and God answered him by fire.

G.R.C. I could not quite say. You may be able to help us.

Rem. In principle did not David know God well enough to approach Him in that way without formally bringing in the matter of the sin offering?

G.R.C. Do you think Psalm 51 shows in a way that David was beyond his dispensation, that he knew what God required? "The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart O God, thou wilt not despise", verse 17. It was the reality of the sin offering he brought, not the formality of it, one would have thought. And the last verse, verse 19, the sacrifices of righteousness. But then we ought to notice that in verse 22 of Numbers 15, it says, "if ye sin inadvertently and do not all these commandments which Jehovah has spoken unto Moses". That is, an inadvertent sin is regarded in that way; the commandment was there, and you

have not done it; you have overlooked it, it may be, or have not been alert enough to it, but when it comes to verse 30 it is different language altogether. "The soul that doeth aught with a high hand whether born in the land or a stranger, he reproacheth Jehovah; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people for he hath despised the word of Jehovah". Now this is the charge against him -- "he hath despised the word of Jehovah, and hath broken his commandment". It is one thing, through inadvertence, not to do the commandment; it is another thing to despise the word of Jehovah and break the commandment.

Ques. I would like to ask as to verses 22 and 23. Do you think it suggests the protracted period of ministry, what we have received through Paul, and what has been maintained in the day of recovery, so that we should follow up the ministry? Would Paul have had to charge the Corinthians, some of them being ignorant of God if they had followed up his ministry? Does not the ignorance, that has made way for these sins of inadvertence, become a matter of not following up the truth, the ministry?

G.R.C. I think these comprehensive statements must include that, because it is from the day that Jehovah gave commandment and henceforward throughout your generations. That would be after Moses had gone. So after Paul had gone, in that sense, there are still directions, which would not be contrary to Paul of course, but an amplification and as bearing on our day, I suppose.

Ques. Do we need great spiritual discernment as to whether the sin is inadvertent, or whether the desires are wrong and we are despising; this strong word that is used -- despising the word of Jehovah -- that is will entering into it?

G.R.C. I think so. We have often thought of the skilful way Paul approaches the Corinthians, and we are to imitate him in our handling of one another.

Individually we are each called upon to imitate Paul in his complete separation to God; but then, in handling our brethren who may not be clear on these matters, we have also to take our cue from Paul. He brought in a wealth of ministry to the Corinthians, a wealth of appeal and grace. But he had no thought of things drifting indefinitely; that was never in his mind. The very fact that fulness of grace is brought to bear upon persons makes judgment inevitable if it is refused. If grace is refused there is no remedy, God has nothing more to say to men if grace is refused. So that you can see the wisdom of Paul's way. He brings the ministry of glory and grace to bear on the Corinthians, and waits then in priestly grace. He waits, but with no thought of waiting indefinitely, for he says, "having in readiness to avenge all disobedience when your obedience shall have been fulfilled", 2 Corinthians 10:6. There was no other thought in his mind but that matters should be finalised at the right time.

Ques. Is there not a very solemn word in Hebrews 10:26, "for where we sin wilfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains any sacrifice for sin". Would that touch on the matter of the soul that doeth aught with a high hand?

G.R.C. I think it does. In its fulness, sinning with a high hand is apostasy; and Hebrews warns us against the principle of apostasy. The principle of it can work with us; as it says, a wicked heart of unbelief in turning away from the living God. Not that a real Christian would ever go the whole way, and be lost eternally; but he can be lost to the testimony here. So that while we have to be careful in our application of verse 30, yet the principle of it applies.

Rem. These things happened as types of us that we should not be lusters and so on. Is that the great gain in these warnings if we take them to heart?

G.R.C. 1 Corinthians 10 is most important in

this connection; they are types of us, as you say, that we might not go that way.

Ques. Is the extremity of the matter brought forward in 1 Samuel 15, verse 23, the word of Samuel to Saul, "For rebellion is as the sin of divination, and self will is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of Jehovah, He also hath rejected thee from being king"?

G.R.C. That bears on it very much, and so, as we are saying, Paul had no thoughts of things drifting indefinitely, there was no such thought in his mind; things were to be finalised, but at the right time, in his own priestly judgment and estimation. "When", he says, "your obedience shall have been fulfilled". So I take it it means for us that each local company has to take matters up from that angle, as to timing.

Ques. Are you carrying forward into this reading what you said in the first, that there are certain matters that are incumbent upon us as having the light of God dwelling among His people. Is the immediate dealing with sin one of those matters, when it comes to light, as to whether it is inadvertent or with a high hand?

G.R.C. Quite so. In either case the sin must be dealt with; and that raises a question as to how far we have carried out verses 24 and 25. How far have we carried this on our spirits before God, the whole assembly being involved in it. Then there is the individual who is particularly involved as in verses 27 and 29.

Rem. In taking up these matters are there two things to be borne in mind, first of all the sin, and then the person, as to what he is at the time. We may sin, may we not, and come this way, and have our forgiveness. But when it becomes an assembly issue it is a question of what the person is, is it not? And if we are dealing with persons in these matters we have to find out what their judgment is as to them,

and help them clear themselves, do we not?

G.R.C. That is right; that is what Paul was seeking to do; he was seeking to help the Corinthians to come to his own judgment of matters.

Ques. But may there not be some advantage in bringing these matters forward rather quicker than we have done, so that the light of the assembly bears on the matter earlier, and the person concerned sees what he is?

G.R.C. Yes I think we have been helped in that matter. Bringing it into the care meeting has greatly helped, and brethren in many cases, have cleared themselves.

Ques. I would like to ask why the tent of meeting is not apparently mentioned between verses 22 and 31, whereas I notice that in the special cases in the dark period of chapters 11, 12, 13 and 14, it has a very distinctive part in it?

G.R.C. I would say these directions have in view not only the wilderness but the land, and that may be why there is no specific mention of the tent of meeting. It might relate to the house that Solomon built, but it would stand related to God's dwelling in either case. This goes "hence forward throughout your generations".

Ques. Does what Paul says to Timothy bear on all that we have been saying? He says "Take heed to thyself" which, significantly enough, comes in the first epistle to Timothy.

G.R.C. That is the first and foremost thing. He says a similar thing to the elders of Ephesus, "Take heed to yourselves"; that is the first thing. I am not capable of taking up anything with anyone else if I have not taken heed to myself.

Ques. Do you think that is the reason why the oblation and the drink offering come in in this connection? We would be more able to deal with these things in others if we knew more of the oblation and

the drink offering in regard of ourselves?

G.R.C. I am sure of that. I think that the effect of the sweet odour of the burnt offering and then the appreciation of the oblation, and the deep feelings of the drink offering would affect the whole manner in which we take things up. We would bring in God's own outlook and feelings into the matter, and thus take things up in the assurance that the assembly's place before God is not affected by these defections, that the acceptance in which we stand is unchangeable.

Ques. Is that why we get the one young bullock for a burnt offering, and so on, in connection with the assembly; but when we come to one soul in verse 27 we have just the she goat for a sin offering?

G.R.C. Quite so. It is relative to the general position that the burnt offering stands. The assembly, according to God's own thoughts, is before Him on this immutable basis; and what a comfort it is to our souls, and what deep feelings it would bring about in us as to what follows -- the sin offering! And then, as to the individual soul, he brings his sin offering -- a she goat -- which, I suppose suggests the subjective side of things, that he has gone into things deeply. The individual sin offering, as we know from Leviticus, was fed upon by the priests. The sin offering for the assembly was burnt outside the camp, but the individual sin offering became food for the priests; and I believe that is an important matter, that we should learn to feed not on the sin, but upon the sin offering.

Ques. Is it important to see that these matters are completed: "It shall be forgiven" is just as much a completion of the matter of the sin of inadvertence as the soul being cut off in verse 31, as to the matter of a high hand?

G.R.C. The idea here is that things are finalised one way or the other. It is very emphatic, "it shall be forgiven them" in verse 25, "and it shall be forgiven him" in verse 28. But then in verses 30 and 31 things

are finalised on the other line. And I believe it is an important matter that localities should have priestly discernment as to when, as Paul says, "having in readiness to avenge all disobedience when your obedience shall have been fulfilled", 2 Corinthians 10:6. Is that right?

Rem. Yes, I was thinking particularly of the earlier matter, that there is a danger with us when things have been settled in assembly, matters have been forgiven, we may still in our minds think of them as open.

G.R.C. There is always the tendency to feed on the sin instead of the sin offering.

Rem. That cannot be underlined too much, we need that emphatically in our hearts, that when God finalises a thing, it is finalised.

Ques. And do we not have the same kind of things in the burnt offering? It says in Leviticus 7:8, "as to the priest that presenteth any man's burnt offering, the skin of the burnt-offering which he hath presented shall be the priest's for himself". Would he not have ever before him that a matter has been finalised, acceptance has been reached, and there is the evidence in it in the skin?

G.R.C. Very interesting.

Ques. Would the word in 2 Corinthians 2:10 be important in regard of what you are saying? "To whom ye forgive anything, I also, for I also, what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, it is for your sakes in the person of Christ". There is nothing hanging on in our minds, is there, if a thing has been forgiven?

G.R.C. And it suggests confidence between the apostle and the local company.

Ques. Is it in mind that when matters are settled finally and righteously that there is something positive to be carried forward to enrich the service of God? Even Psalm 51 is to the chief musician.

G.R.C. Yes, and that psalm ends with something very positive, the whole burnt offerings on God's altar.

Ques. Would we learn from the Lord Himself, in Luke 4, the way He rids the man of the demon; it says "the demon, having thrown him down in the midst, came out from him without doing him any injury", verse 35. I was wondering about the thought "without doing him any injury", if perhaps by extension we could serve one another in that way, and thus the man is retained.

G.R.C. That is what we would seek to do; that is the aim. Paul says "Receive us: we have injured no one", 2 Corinthians 7:2. That is what he says to them; nothing he had written to them was in the way of injury -- showing how we need to avoid any natural feelings coming into the matter. And I think that is what may be involved in the man gathering sticks on the sabbath -- the idea of natural heat coming into things.

Ques. Before you go on to that, could you just say another word about verse 24, about the whole assembly offering the young bullock. We seem to understand better the individual matter that you have alluded to later, but how does the whole assembly offer one young bullock?

G.R.C. As far as I could go at the moment it would simply be that the saints universally would carry the thing before God in their soul relations with God.

Ques. Is there any application at all in our localities? I am sure what you say must be right, that the thing should be carried generally; but in any sense, are we to feel in our localities a thing that happens amongst us generally.

G.R.C. Oh certainly. Whatever applies to the universal position must be carried into the locality; the whole meeting should be feeling things in this way.

Ques. Have we gone perhaps a little too far, in the past, in avoiding what we have spoken of as meetings for humiliation?

G.R.C. J.T. refers to such meetings in his letters. He did not speak as though he cared for them. But I think it would be a thing that we could look into.

Ques. Would this verse 24 refer to a general judgment of matters amongst the saints? The matter being judged, a conclusion arrived at, it is followed up with what is fragrant to God in the service, and the ministry being not impeded by it. Is the thought not that we should be able to go forward, matters then being worked out locally?

G.R.C. I think our being able to go forward is so important. The word in Deuteronomy is "ye have gone round this mountain long enough". Things need to be finalised in a right way so that we can move on. That is what Paul would have in mind at Corinth when he says "when your obedience shall have been fulfilled". He would take certain action, and would be justified in it, because he had brought fulness of grace to bear on them. Therefore he would be justified in severity when he came, and it would leave the position free then for movement onward.

Ques. Would not this question be answered in the scope given to elders in Leviticus 4 in regard to the sin of inadvertence in the assembly?

Rem. So that whilst Paul was concerned about the person at Corinth, he was also equally concerned that the saints should be carried by it, do you think? And would the second epistle bring in a movement forward?

G.R.C. Yes, it is quite clear that in a meeting of assembly character everyone is expected to be carried, and the whole meeting in Corinth were carried as the second epistle shows; they were all affected.

Ques. Would Joshua 7:10 link with it at all? "And Jehovah said to Joshua, Rise up, wherefore

liest thou thus upon thy face? Israel has sinned".

G.R.C. Quite so. If there is any sin, it affects the whole of Israel, and that is an important point to bear in mind -- to carry the iniquity of it in our spirits. In the recovery we are being recovered to what was always right, but we have not seen it up to a certain point, so that every feature of recovery, right from the beginning has involved considerable exercise before God.

Ques. Is that why it says "hid from the eyes of the assembly"?

G.R.C. Yes. You see the recovery has been stage by stage, but then at every stage we realise that what we have now got light upon was always true.

Ques. Would the word to Sardis "I have not found thy works complete before my God", Revelation 3:2, bring this exercise to bear upon us?

G.R.C. Quite so. You mean we have not gone on to completion.

Ques. I would like to ask you to say another word as to this matter of forgiveness. I am thinking now of the one soul sinning through inadvertence, and the word in the passage I have been referring to is "I exhort you to assure him of your love". If we retain reserves against the brother, we are playing up to the enemy, are we not? It says "that we might not have Satan get an advantage against us for we are not ignorant of his thoughts", 2 Corinthians 2:8, 11.

G.R.C. Yes, the connection there is very interesting. One had not properly given attention to it. When he says "we are not ignorant of his thoughts", you mean it is lest there should be an unforgiving spirit?

Rem. Yes, and the enemy would bring in disunity amongst the saints -- a lack of liberty that he is going to enjoin in chapter 3, do you feel?

Ques. So, does not forgiveness become an integral part of the divine system?

G.R.C. We would not have any standing with God apart from it.

Ques. And how would the testimony be maintained apart from it?

G.R.C. And specially we should realise that in days of recovery, on the lines on which we have just been speaking, every accession of light exposes that we have been going on with sins of ignorance. All along the line this is an experience for us.

Rem. It says in Numbers 14:19 "Pardon, I beseech thee, the iniquity of this people according to the greatness of thy loving-kindness, and as thou hast forgiven this people, from Egypt even until now".

G.R.C. That bears very much on what we are saying. Even in those days it was on the principle of forgiveness that God continued with the people.

Rem. J.T. called attention, in Glasgow in 1949, to the thought of 'mending' being the same as restoration in Galatians 6:1, and the thought of the mending of the nets enters into that thought. The word is mending, so that the net can be used as it was before.

Rem. As to the fruit -- some forward movement as a result of dealing with evil -- I was wondering whether we did not get a very clear example of that in Acts 5, where multitudes were added the more, and there was great increase of power. I was wondering, as to what was said a little earlier as to the necessity of dealing with such matters as evil associations -- and radio in houses and that kind of thing -- whether there would not be also a great accession of power with us if we are prepared to face this exercise! The Lord has, by the Spirit, definitely raised a challenge amongst us of late, very recently in particular, as to all such matters; whether it is not incumbent upon us to act upon this with a view to a special fresh power and increase in the service of God and in the testimony! Would you say that is right?

G.R.C. Yes indeed. The scripture you draw attention to is most striking as to the increase of power, and the multitudes added. And as to others, they dare not join themselves to them, which was a salvation.

Ques. Would you look for every local meeting to speak in care over matters which the Lord may be raising, even although they may not feel it has a direct application to them?

G.R.C. I think so. Because otherwise, how is the whole assembly going to take the matter up? There should be a universal taking of it up, and that would take place in the local assemblies.

Ques. Do the tassels of blue form some answer?

G.R.C. I thought that is the climax of this instruction, that is how it ends, that is the end in view, and has a very important bearing on current exercises.

Rem. It is interesting that it is a kind of climax, that there should be some moral answer substantially in the saints. It is interesting that whilst the cloud may tend to recede at certain times in these experiences, it all has in view the more substantial working out of the thing in the saints. When the cloud was visibly observed and moved there was no question, it was a question of immediate action. But is not the divine glory in the fact that the saints answer of themselves to the work of God and the truth of God?

G.R.C. So this seems to be a very subjective result. They were to make them; it is what the people did themselves; they made them tassels. And then they attached to the tassels at the corners, a lace of blue. All that meant workmanship which would substantially prove that they were a heavenly people; it is really, in a way, the recovery from the breakdown of chapter 14, that now they are seen to be substantially a heavenly people.

Ques. In Ephesians 5 and 6 you would get an example of what you are saying, the offering of Christ.

Is there not a suggestion there of what you have said, the burnt offering and the oblation coming in there; the singing in that chapter would be the drink offering, the feeling of the saints contributing to God, and then the tassels of blue in the outward relationships, bondmen and so on. There is a heavenly colour about the saints as following that line of teaching.

G.R.C. I am sure that is true.

Ques. Would not the lace of blue suggest sensitiveness, lace is very soon destroyed, is it not?

G.R.C. That is very interesting. Lace is a very delicate thing, as you say, it can easily be destroyed and damaged, so that this suggests a refined result in the saints, and on the corners of their garments, the corners are nearest to the earth.

Ques. Is there a suggestion that it is a stimulation to one another? It is to look upon one another, to attract attention to this heavenly character worked out substantially in the saints.

G.R.C. The note suggests that, a tassel or a flower to attract attention. What a beautiful sight to see the saints all with this flower as it were, on the corners of their garments, and adorned with the lace of blue! Well, how we should stimulate one another on the heavenly line!

Ques. Would it also have a testimonial bearing, that others can take account that there are those who are a heavenly people here on earth?

G.R.C. I am sure of this, that men would not want you in their associations then. Men would not want you at all if you have got the tassels of blue, and the lace.

Ques. And have not the young growing up amongst us an advantage peculiar to this day? Many of us have defiled our garments, and we have had to wash our robes. Do not they as starting out in life, start out with clean garments, and would we not encourage them to keep them thus, as in Sardis,

"which have not defiled their garments and they shall walk with me in white"?

G.R.C. That is very good indeed, and should be a very great encouragement to the young, so that with undefiled garments they might begin early with the tassel and the lace of blue.

Ques. What about the joy of forgiveness? One feels we know very little about that; but in Luke 15 joy is very important in connection with forgiveness, and I feel we need to know something about it.

G.R.C. I would think the elder brother would spoil it, and I think that is the idea perhaps of the man gathering sticks. He was out of accord with the spirit of the dispensation, God's sabbath. He would bring natural heat to bear on the situation. Paul gathered sticks in a right way in Acts 28 for the real kind of warmth among the saints.

Rem. Paul provided sticks to secure sabbath conditions; this is getting sticks to break sabbath conditions.

G.R.C. Yes.

Ques. Is Ephesians 4:31 like the gathering sticks, "Let all bitterness, and heat of passion, and wrath, and clamour, and injurious language, be removed from you, with all malice; and be to one another kind"?

G.R.C. We certainly need to be free of that kind of heat, the heat of passion.

Ques. Is not the Lord Himself the great test? I was thinking, in the days of His sojourn on earth, He noticed a lot of things that were not in keeping with the teaching of Moses, and one of them was that they were having enlarged blue ribbon in the bottom of their garments, so that they were drawing undue attention to themselves. So that the Lord I suppose would put us to the test as to whether we know these things mentally or have really done them.

G.R.C. Yes, it is remarkable how the Pharisees

took on these things in a literal and material way with no reality, but the exercises we have been speaking about, going through them, will bring about the true spiritual things.

READING 4

Numbers 17:1 - 13; Numbers 18:1 - 7; Numbers 19:1 - 6; Numbers 20:7 - 13

G.R.C. We have referred to the way God had reserves with which to meet every contingency, so that outbreaks of the flesh and sin in the flesh served to bring out further reserves on God's part; and God would give those, who were ready for it, further instruction as to His purposes in Christ. In chapter 16, the great rebellion is recorded -- referring, typically to the setting up of the clerical and hierarchical system in the Christian profession. J.N.D. wrote that "the notion of a clergyman is dispensationally the sin against the Holy Spirit". The setting up of the clerical system is the great rebellion that has marked this dispensation, setting aside, in practice, the Holy Spirit personally as well as Himself as the anointing. It is also rebellion against the lordship and priesthood of Christ. We have a coalition in that chapter with Korah and those of Levi aspiring to the priesthood, and Dathan and Abiram of the tribe of Reuben with the two hundred and fifty princes, who were all jealous of the authority of Moses. As I say, this is the outstanding sin of Christendom, setting aside the authority of Christ, setting aside His priesthood, establishing an official priesthood which has no divine authority. The most that Korah and those with him could claim was that they were Levites; but they also claimed the priesthood -- which God says of the priests that their anointing shall be to them an everlasting priesthood. So that to set up an official, humanly ordained priesthood, is an insult to the Holy Spirit; because the anointing is to be to God's priests the everlasting priesthood

-- Exodus 40. Priesthood is contingent upon the anointing. But following this great rebellion we have what is very affecting because it specially bears on our day. We come in after the rebellion. 2 Timothy is to guide us as to our actions relative to the great rebellion. And the way God meets it in connection with "the staff of Levi", as it is called in verse 3 of chapter 17, and "the staff of Aaron for the house of Levi" in verse 8, is remarkable as bearing on the truth of Christ's priesthood and as to the priesthood of the saints as related to Him, at the beginning of chapter 18, in these last days. It is not that this was not true at the beginning of the dispensation and apprehended fully by the apostles particularly such as Paul. They ministered it. But then the rebellion having come, as well as the priesthood of Christ, what is truly priestly and truly levitical having been submerged, God has been pleased to meet it by a particular presentation of the glory and grace of the priesthood of Christ as represented in the staff of Levi. It is also called the staff of Aaron for the house of Levi. In contrast to all the other staves, whatever pretension there might have been on the part of others, it was the staff of Aaron alone which budded and brought forth buds and bloomed blossoms, and ripened almonds. And so in the recovery, God has brought before us in a remarkable way the greatness of Christ as our great high priest ever living to intercede for us; and God has also established the Priest in the power of an indissoluble life, and our priesthood as related to Him, and relative to that, the importance of the Levites. The whole thing is revived here with a new and added grace and glory attaching to it -- the whole system of priesthood and levitical service, and the Israel of God, are brought in in chapter 18. It would indicate a revival in the nation; they were bringing their heave offerings, as support for the priests, and the tithes for the Levites. So that

at the close of the dispensation there should be this great revival in the apprehension of Christ as Priest, and priestly and levitical service going on amongst the saints supported by the whole economy of Israel. And I think it is the power and light of this that would enable us to face the exercises of Numbers 19. God brings in alongside of it, as a statute, permanent means of purification; so that this service might never again be interrupted, the water of separation was to be always available. It brings before us an aspect of the death of Christ not opened up before -- a terrible aspect of it -- yet a most touching one; and that is brought in, as it were, in the light of this great recovery of the glory of priestly and levitical service. It is that which has strengthened us to face the exercises of Numbers 19, and to accept that aspect of the death of Christ; because the priesthood and all the services that pertain to it have become so attractive to us that we cannot bear the idea of anything that would militate against it. That is the main thought in mind. Then in chapter 20 we see the use of Aaron's staff in a special way, how God at the close of the dispensation is intent upon meeting things in the power of priestly grace and glory; so that at the close there should be a people ready for entering the land.

Ques. Do you take it that the whole of the recovery is based upon the life that is in Christ Jesus? The apostle introduces the second epistle to Timothy by speaking of himself as "apostle of Jesus Christ by God's will, according to the promise of life, the life which is in Christ Jesus", (2 Timothy 1:1). Does that have to be maintained right through the recovery?

G.R.C. I would think so, I would think that has some bearing upon the rod of Aaron here. Then in chapter 2 he opens with "Therefore, my child, be strong in the grace which is in Christ Jesus". The grace of the living and heavenly Priest.

Ques. Is there something in the fact that the rod of Aaron that sprouted is mentioned in Hebrews 9:4 as being in the Ark? I was thinking how closely connected with Christ it is. "And the ark of the covenant, covered round in every part with gold, in which were the golden pot that had the manna, and the rod of Aaron that had sprouted".

G.R.C. That is an interesting allusion, because Hebrews in a special way brings before us the glory and attractiveness of Christ's priesthood from that standpoint. He is priest in the power of indissoluble life. It tells us that if He were on earth He would not be a priest; the features of priesthood were there of course, but officially He had no standing as priest when here on earth. But Hebrews presents Him as the risen One who has entered in, the heavenly Priest, and we are holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling. And in that indissoluble life that He lives He ever lives to intercede for us.

Ques. At what point did the priesthood of Christ begin? I am thinking of the scripture that you have already quoted that if He were on earth He would not be a priest -- though, as you say, He was priestly in action and in His life. I am wondering at what point His official priesthood began.

G.R.C. Luke stresses how priestly everything was that Jesus did; but I would think that His priesthood must have begun when by the eternal Spirit He offered Himself without spot to God. I am only putting that forward as a suggestion, but that was the great high priestly offering which inaugurated the system. It says "every high priest is constituted for the offering both of gifts and sacrifices", chapter 8: 3, and then the following chapters tell us what it was that Jesus had to offer; what He had to offer was His own body, the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Rem. I am feeling my way in the matter as to whether it is in the offering of Himself, or whether

in the language of the type it is the taking in of the blood. I really want help on it.

G.R.C. If I remember rightly, I think J.T. referred to the offering of Himself as the great high priestly offering. What He had to offer was Himself; and that is the foundation for His priesthood and ours too. Whether we could say that at that time He was officially the Priest I would not like to say; He certainly was as entering in.

Rem. And in a comment on Hebrews 9:14 "Who by the eternal Spirit offered Himself spotless to God" -- he said 'We have the altar, the priest and the offering in His own Person'.

G.R.C. Quite so. One thing is quite clear, that it is as having offered Himself and entered in that He takes up His priestly office in regard to us -- ever living to intercede for us. It is as risen and living that He intercedes; and it is as the heavenly Priest that we are associated with Him. And another thing to keep in mind, when we think of the great High Priest, that He is what we have -- "we have such a one high priest". But then the other side of it is what God has in Him, as the "minister of the holy places", Hebrews 8:1.

Ques. At the end of Luke's gospel it says, "And he led them out as far as Bethany, and having lifted up his hands, he blessed them", Luke 24:50. Is that a priestly act?

G.R.C. It is certainly a priestly act.

Rem. And the answer to it is in the priests continually in the temple praising and blessing God.

G.R.C. Yes, He having been carried up into heaven as the heavenly priest, He left the priestly company behind.

Ques. Does the official side require the true tabernacle, and would "we have such a one high priest" refer to where He has seated Himself? And would that combine Aaron's rod that budded and the gold of deity?

G.R.C. You mean by deity the fact that He seated Himself. And there He is, seated as the heavenly priest, and we have Him. That is a great point in this chapter, that we have such an One. What took place in this chapter was to bring Aaron's rod before the testimony: "Bring Aaron's staff again before the testimony, to be kept as a token for the sons of rebellion, that thou mayest put an end to their murmurings before me, that they may not die", verse 10. One of the burdens of these chapters is that they may not die; God wanted no more death, He wanted the living service of priesthood amongst His people. Then again, in chapter 18, verse 5, "that there come no wrath any more upon the children of Israel". Also in verse 3 of that chapter, "That they may not die".

Rem. I remember hearing our brother Mr. Raven giving an address at Peterborough on this very matter, many years ago, saying 'I can understand dispensational difficulties being raised as to the Lord as priest; but I have no doubt He did a great deal of priestly service when He was here on earth'. Does that help?

G.R.C. Yes it does. It is important to carry that in our minds, because it is so true. Much of what the Lord did on earth was priestly in a superlative way; but He was not officially in that office.

Ques. What would be involved in this progressive matter at the end of verse 8? 1 was thinking of progression in it -- "it budded and brought forth buds and bloomed blossoms, and ripened almonds" -- as though matters were seen to fruition on this basis of life.

G.R.C. Does it not suggest every feature of life and fruitfulness seen in Christ, seen in Him personally when He was here, but now seen in Him as available to us -- our great High Priest as risen and in heaven.

Ques. Would it carry also the thought of the beautiful features coming out in the priestly family as additional attestation of the priesthood of Christ?

G.R.C. I think so, because it is the staff of Aaron for the house of Levi.

Rem. I remember J.T. making a remark including a reference to Phinehas as being the fruit of this matter.

G.R.C. That is interesting. The staves as put before Jehovah were found to be dead. But Aaron's rod budded and brought forth buds and bloomed blossoms and ripened almonds; it was a question of life out of death. This specially has in mind the priesthood of Christ in the power of life out of death, because it is only thus that He can be our great high priest in the official sense; and that we can get the benefit of Him. But the other rods remain dead, and therefore the people come to a judgment of themselves; they say "Lo, we expire, we perish, we all perish". Because they saw that their rods remained dead; there was only one rod which showed the signs of life. It is good to come to that -- which puts an end to the murmurings; "That thou mayest put an end to their murmurings before me, that they may not die". We should make a full surrender and learn to judge any feature of the flesh that would mitigate against giving Christ His full place as the great Priest and the Minister of the holy places. And which would enable us in the power of His life to take up the service ourselves.

Rem. It would have a very sobering effect on them as they took them up, when the rod of Aaron was the only one that remained before God.

G.R.C. That is right. It says Moses brought out all the staves from before Jehovah to all the children of Israel, and they looked and took each one his staff. That would be a very solemn thing for them, every staff remained dead except Aaron's.

Ques. It says "kept as a token for the sons of rebellion". That seems to suggest that it has a forward look, not to the immediate conditions that were there only. That being so, is rebellion -- no matter what the immediate circumstances are -- actually against Christ in the various offices that God has established in Him?

G.R.C. It is. So that every movement of sin in the flesh, which is in principle rebellious, is against Christ as Lord and Priest. But what is stressed here is the priesthood, because His priesthood is so attractive, and our acceptance of it is the means of our salvation, so that we might not die, in spite of being by nature sons of rebellion. We have historically come out of the great rebellion, as we might say; yet if we accept and avail ourselves of the priesthood of Christ we shall not die. We shall be brought into the power of His risen life.

Ques. Is it not remarkable how the word of God, and the great High Priest are set together in Hebrews 4? I was thinking of the searching character of the word of God: "living and operative, and sharper than any two-edged sword, and penetrating to the division of soul and spirit, both of joints and marrow, and a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. And there is not a creature unapparent before him; but all things are naked and laid bare to his eyes, with whom we have to do". And then immediately as the word of God is brought to bear upon us, in this searching way, it calls attention to the great High Priest.

G.R.C. Very good. Because if the word of God has its way with us like that, we shall use the language here, in principle: "we expire, we perish, all perish". What can a man do if a sword is through his soul and spirit, and the joints and marrow? The man is mortally wounded, as we say. And that is a great thing, to be mortally wounded; so that the experience

of chapter 16 plus that of chapter 17, and the witness of these rods, would bring that about. We would be really before God as recognising that by nature all is death and that our hope only lies in the risen and heavenly Priest. But His grace is super abundant, so that it says "He is able to save completely those who approach by him to God, always living to intercede for them", Hebrews 7:25.

Ques. Would this be seen early in the Acts -- chapter 2: 37 -- in the testimony to the risen life of Jesus, and then the evidence of life in the apostles, and also the effect in those who heard the word, "What shall we do?" Would that be the working out of it? I was thinking, confirming what you said, of the word that went forth, all the words of this life. The life was not only in Jesus personally, but it was worked out in the power of the Spirit in the saints here.

G.R.C. That is very interesting. "Go ye and stand and speak in the temple to all the people the words of this life", Acts 5:20. The life was there in evidence in Jerusalem, a priestly company in relationship with the living Priest above -- an amazing testimony in Jerusalem, and Peter was to speak all the words of this life.

Ques. Does Paul furnish us with a good example of that in his service to the Corinthians? He says that he was "always delivered unto death on account of Jesus, that the life also of Jesus may be manifested in our mortal flesh", 2 Corinthians 4:11. He would not have his own staff; he would really be representative of the life of Christ?

G.R.C. I was thinking of that chapter, where you really get what they thought -- insofar as it can be worked out in the saints. The budding and the blooming of blossoms, and the ripened almonds, would speak of "the life of Jesus", whereas "Bearing about in the body the dying of Jesus" would be the

recognition on our side that "we all perish". But then this makes way for "the life also of Jesus may be manifested in our mortal flesh". God comes in in that way to help us in the matter. And then he says "death works in us, but life in you". The more we are in the good of the fact that our staves are just dead, the more benefit we become to the saints. Life will work in the saints through the evidences of true priesthood in us.

Ques. Is it not remarkable that in Hebrews 3:1 it is "consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession"? Does it not link on very strikingly with this considering of Aaron's staff?

G.R.C. Yes, and from that point on, little is said about the apostle in Hebrews; it develops greatly the thought of the High Priest. And that is the point here, the murmuring and the rebellion had been against Moses as well as Aaron. But the fact of the matter is what will save us is not only lordship -- in Moses -- but priesthood; otherwise we shall die. The point is, if we do not avail ourselves of Christ as the risen and heavenly Priest, we shall die -- as far as our part in the testimony down here is concerned.

Ques. Would you say a word now as to the emphasis upon obedience in Hebrews 5, in contrast to the sons of rebellion -- the emphasis on His obedience and our obedience?

G.R.C. That is very important, and it is put in a most attractive setting -- that even He, "though he were Son, he learned obedience from the things which he suffered". The theme of that chapter really is that He was taken from men and for men: "every high priest taken from amongst men is established for men in things relating to God", Hebrews 5:1. It thus views Christ as taken for men in things relating to God; but in order to be a true High Priest He learned obedience here in that way. So that obedience might become attractive to us; how easy to obey

One like that! He is the author of eternal salvation to those that obey Him.

Rem. So the Son perfected for ever is the High Priest.

G.R.C. That is right. "A Son perfected for ever", Hebrews 7:28. He was ever perfect; but was perfected for the office of High Priest, as we are also told elsewhere that He was made perfect through the things that He suffered.

Ques. Would the budding of the staff have in mind life in all its phases -- beautiful phases, early life, in the buds; and then developing life in the blossoms and maturity in the ripened almonds? Do all those phases find expression in the saints as under the influence of Christ?

G.R.C. I thought that. Therefore the young people who are at the budding stage need not fear to exercise priesthood.

Ques. Is that why it is for the house of Levi?

G.R.C. I think so, it is the rod of Aaron for the house of Levi. That we might all take up, firstly our priestly responsibilities, and secondly our levitical responsibilities.

Ques. Has the development of these attractive features of life amongst the saints, in the various grades of life, been one of the choice features of the revival, particularly of recent years?

G.R.C. That is a very encouraging feature, specially of recent years. The young persons coming into fellowship young -- receiving the Spirit young; and the moment you receive the Spirit you belong to the priesthood and should be free to function young. We love to see the buds.

Ques. Could we regard the life that is suggested in Philadelphia as the answer to the priesthood of Christ operating at this time, bringing something out of the deadness of Sardis?

G.R.C. I think that makes the matter clear

where it comes in the history of the dispensation, the Lord says as to Jezebel "And her children will I kill with death", Revelation 2:23. How the Lord must feel having to say a thing like that! And then as to Sardis, "I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead". Well, what is there for God, in Jezebel's children? Nothing, they are dead. What is there for God in Sardis? a name to live, but dead. There is no availing themselves of the priesthood in Christ in those two settings; and yet He presents Himself to Sardis as the One who has the seven spirits of God. There is the fulness of life available in Him, and yet Sardis takes no advantage of it. There is the living Priest on high, in heaven, and Sardis takes no advantage of it. A name to live but is dead. We can only live in the power of the priesthood of Christ.

Ques. While this great high priestly system is established, and is available for every one of us, is it not only exercised persons that really get the gain of this service? In Hebrews 4, He speaks about the danger of so many who might fail to arrive at the great thoughts of God for them, coming short of the purpose of God. And so is not that where we get the gain of the high priestly service of Christ as our hearts and minds are set in regard to the great thoughts of God -- all this is available for us?

G.R.C. That would save any of us from the high-handed sin we spoke about this morning, sinning with a high hand, because sinning with a high hand really is not hearkening to the word of Hebrews 3 and 4. "Today if ye will hear his voice harden not your hearts". The word is quick and powerful and sharper than any two-edged sword; it hurts, and the danger is to refuse it and to harden the heart. But then, as has just been said -- coupled with the action of God's word -- we have the statement: "Having therefore a great high priest who has passed through the heavens,

Jesus the Son of God, Let us hold fast the confession". However much it hurts, let us hold fast the confession, let us accept the hurt of the word, because we have got the living Priest on high to sustain us. And chapter 5 shows what He has been through, that He can enter into the whole matter.

Rem. I thought it was a question really of "hearing today". The word that the Lord is giving today, and not having our hearts hardened in relation to it; and it is in that way the high priestly service of Christ comes in to sustain us and to support us in regard to it.

G.R.C. That is it; and, therefore, if we get the gain of what this chapter brings out we shall not die; we shall come to a judgment of ourselves, saying "we expire", in that sense, "we all perish". That is, there is no hope after the flesh; but the whole point is that, as accepting that, it puts an end to our murmurings; we accept the truth as to ourselves, because we have the flesh in judgment, according to verse 10. "That thou mayest put an end to their murmurings before me that they may not die". God wants people to live. God wants the priesthood to function. And that can only be in life.

Ques. In Psalm 110, the priestly Psalm, the great gain of the priestly service of Christ comes in the first half of the Psalm before you get the judgment side, such as filling all places with dead bodies. Would the order of that be very suggestive? I am thinking particularly of "Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power", verse 3. That is, they have accepted the priestly service of Christ; but the judging side comes toward the end of the psalm.

G.R.C. Yes, that verse that you quote is very beautiful, "Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power in holy splendour". What a wonderful thing that is! That is what God is bringing us to in these last days.

Ques. Do we see persons who have got the gain of the priestly service in the place that the sons of Korah have in the second book of psalms? I was thinking particularly of Psalms 45 - 48; in Psalm 45 we have the greatness of the king; in 46 and 47 the greatness of God, and in 48 the greatness of the city.

G.R.C. That is a very instructive suggestion, because it links up chapters 16 and 17 here. Korah himself died as we know, but his children did not; and undoubtedly from those psalms his children came into the gain in a remarkable way, as you say. The psalms for the sons of Korah are some of the most beautiful.

Ques. Is the outcome of this in chapter 18 an elevation, in a way, of the priesthood in its availability to God? It is a new word, is it not, to Aaron and to the whole tribe of Levi, as to what they are to take on in priesthood? Verses 1 and 2, to "bear the iniquity", and the word "unite with thee". It is a new word as to the status of priesthood, is it not? It is a further injunction as to how they are to come into the priesthood, and how they are to take it up. They had never had this lesson before. I thought, in connection with what you have been stressing as to life, that now the priesthood in a sense stands between God and the people in that light. And the word is "may unite with thee".

G.R.C. So the priests stood between the living and the dead. Only those who recognise the priest are among the living; all the rest are the dead. And we are surrounded by dead persons, dead bodies; and you think we should in priestly feeling bear the iniquity before God. Is that what is in your mind?

Rem. I wonder whether that is not in mind. It is a broader outlook for the priesthood.

G.R.C. Yes. The iniquity of the sanctuary; we are to feel intensely with God all that has come into the Christian profession, I would say.

Ques. Would that have a special reference to these days of revival, to bear the iniquity of the sanctuary and the iniquity of the priesthood?

G.R.C. I am sure it would. Has it not been said -- I have only heard this by hearsay -- that J.N.D. said the breakdown of the church was never absent from his thoughts either for an hour or half an hour? His waking thoughts centred on it -- it was always pressing on him.

Ques. Would 2 Timothy 2:8, and the feelings of Paul, bear on this matter -- "Remember Jesus Christ raised from among the dead, of the seed of David"; his own suffering position, and his helping Timothy in that way to bear the iniquity of the sanctuary? The true levitical touch then comes in at the end of the chapter, that even an opposer is dealt with in a measure of priestly grace.

G.R.C. That is very interesting. That end of the chapter, from that standpoint, is a wonderful thing; the priestly grace that would mark the bondman of the Lord.

Ques. Would it not be right to say the great volume of J.T.'s ministry for 50 years or so really bore on the enrichment for God in the assembly, in freshness and power, of the priestly service?

G.R.C. Yes, I am sure that is so; and what benefits we have received from it!

Rem. J.N.D.'s ministry was more perhaps for the establishment of our position publicly here, as sharing in the great public failure, but making way for the increase of the priestly service as has just been said.

G.R.C. Yes. J.T.'s ministry was priestly in a peculiar way.

Ques. So would this give a real objective to all levitical service, having in mind the enrichment of what is priestly?

G.R.C. Yes. "The tribe of Levi, the tribe of thy father, bring near with thee, that they may unite

with thee, and minister unto thee". So that the Levite is ministering to the priest all the time. All he does is in view of the priest functioning more effectively.

Ques. Would you say a word as to the way that the Spirit and the Spirit's service are intimately bound up with the priesthood of Christ; and is it under the power of the anointing that the saints are brought into it?

G.R.C. Yes, the word in Exodus 40:15 always comes to one's mind: "Thou shalt anoint them [that is Aaron's sons], as thou didst anoint their father, that they may serve me as priests. And their anointing shall be to them an everlasting priesthood throughout their generations". So it is only in virtue of the Spirit that we can come into this at all.

Rem. I was thinking of what was referred to earlier. In Thyatira it is a question of the rejection of the Person of Christ. His displacement as the Son of God; and then in Sardis it is the neglect of the Holy Spirit. If these things are recognised we get the gain of what there is in Philadelphia, do we?

G.R.C. That is very good; because we need to see that as to Sardis, "These things saith he that has the seven spirits of God, and the seven stars", Revelation 3:1. The seven spirits of God, the fulness of the Spirit is still available to us and that is what Sardis neglects.

Ques. In John 14 the Lord says. "Because I live ye also shall live", then He speaks of that day. Has the Lord in view this day, the Spirit's day?

G.R.C. He has. And you can see how what we know, what He says there: "In that day ye shall know" -- how it bears on the functioning priesthood -- "In that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you", John 14:20. The "I in you", can only mean that we are functioning in the power of the life of Christ, towards His Father and His God.

Ques. Would the third and fourth of Zechariah support what our brother has just said? In Zechariah 3 we get the priests clothed, in chapter 4 all the resources there are in the Spirit.

G.R.C. Yes we do; and that again links with the current revival. The filthy garments are taken off, that is like the sins of the dispensation. We might be weighed down with the sins of the dispensation, the great rebellion; and then the failures of chapters 11, 12, 13 and 14 in this book, might also weigh us right down, because we have to take the burden on ourselves; but they are not to weigh us down. It says in Zechariah, "Take off the filthy garments and clothe him with festival robes". God wants the end to be the best.

Ques. Would the bearing of Nehemiah 9, and Nehemiah's feeling in regard of all that had come in in relation to bearing the iniquity, and then chapter 10, give us the full light of the priesthood functioning -- in everything provided suitably for God.

G.R.C. That is all very helpful. What were you thinking of in chapter 10?

Rem. I was thinking of how they charged themselves in relation to the service of "the house of our God". And then you get the bringing in of the continual burnt offerings, the sabbaths, the new moons, the set feasts, the holy things, "the sin offerings to make atonement for Israel, and for all the work of the house of our God". And then you get the priests immediately brought in as functioning rightly.

G.R.C. That is indeed very helpful. As you say, chapter 9 is like bearing the iniquity of the sanctuary, and then the service goes on in power.

Ques. Reference was made to the Levites and the levitical service ministering to the priests; would you also say that all our exercises as the children of Israel are in their turn to minister to what is levitical -- all

this having in mind the heave offering from it for Jehovah?

G.R.C. You are thinking now of verse 8 onwards of chapter 18.

Rem. Yes. We did not have that read, but I am wondering if we could bring that into the matter.

G.R.C. Yes I think we should. It shows that the whole nation were in the exercise.

Rem. The great objective, as has been remarked, being the enrichment of the service of God.

G.R.C. Yes. So that there is no suggestion in what is said here that there would be any shortage: "my heave offerings, of all the hallowed things of the children of Israel; to thee have I given them, because of the anointing, and to thy sons by an everlasting statute". And then it goes over all those things without any suggestion of lack of any kind. And from verse 21 onwards, the children of Levi were to have the tithes -- they were cared for -- and then they tithed the tithes at the end of the chapter to give to the priests. So that you can see that the whole nation was tributary to the sanctuary, and to the service of God in the sanctuary. In the early chapters we have seen the whole nation tributary in defence of things and in movement; here we have the whole nation contributing heartily to the support of the priests and the Levites.

Ques. Is the word 'charged' to be taken account of, do you think in chapter 18? It is continually spoken of there, and I just wondered whether the challenge to the priesthood, and God's vindication of it, would not give more force to the matter of the charge, as in verse 3 for instance!

G.R.C. I think so, it does raise the question with us as to how far we are prepared to accept the idea of charge, something entrusted. We have spoken of the appointments, of the tribe of Levi being appointed, but they were appointed to a charge. And

then the priests were appointed to a greater charge; and it really is incumbent upon us to accept the charge in all that it involves. This is seen in Paul's word to Timothy: "This charge I commit to thee", 1 Timothy 1:18. And also in chapter 6, verse 13: "I enjoin thee before God ... and Christ Jesus".

Rem. If this really laid hold of us there would be no thoughts entertained of giving things up in relation to the testimony of any feature of the service.

G.R.C. That is right, so that he says to Timothy, "I enjoin thee before God who preserves all things in life, and Christ Jesus who witnessed before Pontius Pilate the good confession, that thou keep the commandment", 1 Timothy 6:13. Now I think that would cover the whole matter, the whole charge of the priests and the Levites, that they will keep the commandments spotless, irreproachable until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ. We want to carry through the testimony until the appearing. We know that the Lord will take us a little prior to the appearing, but then the appearing is in our minds; what we are carrying is going to come out in display at the appearing.

Ques. Are we not helped in accepting the charge, the Lord coming in and helping us in the Spirit, as He says to Timothy, "keep by the Holy Spirit the entrusted deposit". Is that accepting the charge?

G.R.C. It is; and then as you say, he shows how the Lord stood by him. So there is every encouragement in the Spirit and in the Lord.

Ques. Might we not require some stimulation in regard of levitical service? One is reminded of the few who came back before Ezra, 74 only, as compared with about four thousand priests; as if the levitical side was lacking. Might we not need stimulation even today? How much is to be done, and how few there are to do it.

G.R.C. That is an extraordinary thing; we ought

to think about that. No doubt God had in mind that the revival in Ezra's and Nehemiah's day should be mainly priestly, I mean that was to be the great thing, but the lack of Levites was deplorable, and Ezra humbled himself about it; and it seems somewhat like the epistle to Timothy. There was no question about Timothy's priestly feeling; Paul bore witness to his tears, but what he needed stimulating in was on the levitical side -- "to rekindle the gift of God which is in thee", 2 Timothy 1:6.

Ques. "Do the work of an evangelist"?

G.R.C. Yes, do the work. So that the question of doing things is very important.

Rem. It goes on further to mention all the service of the tent.

G.R.C. Yes. Because if we do not do things as Levites the priesthood will suffer -- however many priests may be there. We are all delighted to think of the high office to which we have been appointed as priests, many young and old are glad to take part in the service of God, but what are we doing as Levites? The service of God will not be what it should be unless we are all active as Levites.

Rem. If that inactivity is allowed it can only result in Laodiceanism.

Ques. What have you to say about the Lord's final charge in Acts 1 verse 8: "ye shall be my witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in Judea and in Samaria, and to the ends of the earth". I wonder whether we should take that particularly to heart, because I find in scripture that all men come first; and I wondered whether we do not need some stimulating in relation to the glad tidings!

G.R.C. Paul says in both epistles to Timothy that he was a herald and an apostle and a teacher of the nations. And he laboured that the fulness of the nations might come in. So we have to think of that side. It is all in view of the priesthood, all in view of

God getting the portion that is His due.

Ques. Do you think that in verse 2 there is a suggestion that oneness should mark the whole service. The word is "that they may unite with thee"; everything priestly and levitical is to have the feature of oneness about it; the gospel is not to be divorced from the truth of the assembly and from ministry, but there is oneness to attach to it all.

G.R.C. That is very good, so that if there is life in the priesthood there should be corresponding life in the levitical service.

Ques. Would the word in 2 Timothy 4:2, immediately coming in after the reference to the appearing that you have alluded to, call attention to the need for each part of the levitical service being filled out? I was wondering whether the three names that Paul speaks of would cover the whole position: Luke as "with me", the priestly side and what is due to God; Mark, more the levitical side in view of service; and then Tychicus at Ephesus in view of the truth being maintained on the high level.

G.R.C. That is good.

Ques. Is there not something for us to understand in the fact that in the very important movements connected with the going of the ark into Jordan, and also round Jericho, and finally the house, that the priests are seen carrying the ark? When very great matters are on hand amongst the saints, does it not call for a very great liberty and power?

G.R.C. It does.

Rem. It is an observable fact that there is an increase of evangelical activity with the brethren very widely, and also that young brothers who are found serving acceptably in priestly service are also observed to be helped in the preaching, both in the open air and in our rooms. Is not that an encouraging feature?

G.R.C. Yes, one has noticed that, that the more a young man seems to be set for the assembly, the

more, nowadays, he seems to be concerned about the open air preaching.

Ques. Would you say too that it is to be noted that in speaking to Philadelphia the Lord speaks about the whole habitable earth, that we are not to be limited in our outlook?

G.R.C. It is remarkable that Paul in the prison, in 2 Timothy, still speaks of himself as a herald and an apostle and teacher of the nations. He did not limit the scope of his service at all.

Ques. Is this system so delightful to God that He initiates the move whereby it might be maintained in conditions suitable to Himself, in chapter 19?

G.R.C. That is what I was thinking. So that this comes in remarkably late in the history, and therefore specially bears on our day, when there is so much uncleanness, so many dead bodies about, that God brings in this statute of the law. There had been the idea of cleansing as we have seen earlier, purification, but here it comes in as a statute; and God is again making full provision, as you say, so that nothing might come in to damage the revival in such an attractive way of priestly service. There is the full provision, and the full setting out of the death of Christ relative to it. And you will notice that it is before the eyes of the priest that it is all done. This was not exactly for God; it says in verse 5: "and one shall burn the heifer before his eyes", Eleazar's eyes. Eleazar here no doubt being a type of priesthood in the saints; that is, it is to sustain the priests with a right judgment of man in the flesh, even at his best, that they should have a thorough and complete judgment of the whole man, relating to the sufferings of Christ. The intensity of them is stressed here, when He took our place. So that there is a supply of the ashes remaining; they are always available, and therefore a supply of the water of separation always available.

Ques. When you refer to many dead bodies about, you are using that expression in the way you did in your address in London in 1958?

G.R.C. Yes. That is true, is it not?

Rem. Yes definitely true.

Rem. We would be glad if you will enlarge on that a little. There are many young people who perhaps do not understand what a dead body is.

G.R.C. In the first instance we have to take it home to ourselves, this body of death which we carry about with us; it is a question there of learning the lesson of Romans 7, and that we have a right to detach ourselves from it. The water of purification comes in in that way; but then the extension of that is that there is only one fellowship of life on this earth, any banding together of men who have not God as a centre is nothing but a dead body. It is against the whole mind of God that men should band themselves together without Himself as a centre; so that the one living body on earth is the fellowship of God's Son, the body of Christ.

Ques. In connection with the application of the water of purification, is it a clean man that is brought in. I am thinking of verse 18, "a clean man shall take hyssop". Does that raise the question of spirituality with us, do you think?

G.R.C. Yes, it raised the matter of cleanness; we have to distinguish between cleanness and holiness. Cleanness is connected with purification -- cleansing -- cleansing is connected with righteousness. It is a matter of righteousness that we should cleanse ourselves, or purify ourselves from every pollution of flesh and spirit. That makes way for holiness which flows from love. But the "clean person" means we have to take account of what is clean.

Ques. Are the three matters that are referred to about the red heifer important? We say much about "upon which never came yoke", as bearing upon the

matter of yoke; but is the ministry testing us very much about many details now, about blemishes and defects as well?

G.R.C. It is, because after taking up yokes the apostle says "Having therefore these promises, beloved, let us purify ourselves from every pollution of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in God's fear", 2 Corinthians 7:1. That is a question of cleansing, becoming clean not only in respect of our bodies, but our spirits. Not only our external links, but the spirit that marks us.

Ques. Have you in mind that we might get free of an association, and yet still carry with us inwardly the defilement contracted thereby?

G.R.C. I do not think we can cut the exercise, as to purification, short of purifying ourselves from every pollution of flesh and spirit, every pollution. The associations are the obvious things, but I am sure the Lord is calling on us to go the whole way.

Ques. And may we not be more tested in the pollutions of spirit? I am thinking that I may have broken the physical link, but am I not to be concerned about my own inwards, my spirit?

G.R.C. Quite so. Every pollution of flesh and spirit. That is a matter of cleansing. And we all should seek to be clean persons; we are not really morally fit for fellowship otherwise.

Rem. You helpfully called attention to the heifer's ashes in London, linking it with Hebrews 9:13 - 14; so that it says there "If the blood of goats and bulls and a heifer's ashes sprinkling the defiled, sanctifies for the purity of the flesh, how much rather shall the blood of the Christ, who by the eternal Spirit offered himself spotless to God, purify your conscience from dead works to worship the living God". Is that the great objective?

G.R.C. It is. And it just bears on what we are saying, that priestly service -- because that word

"worship" refers to the whole matter of priestly service -- there, that nothing should hinder it. And from the divine side every provision has been made; the sacrifices on the day of atonement, and the sacrifice of the red heifer are brought together in that verse; both are needed. There is what is for God in the day of atonement, and its result for us; but then there is what is necessary in the way of purification in Numbers 19. We have got to keep the two together according to that verse in Hebrews, if the priestly service is to proceed.

Ques. Would you mind saying a word on what the thought of the red heifer conveys to you -- the colour? If I remember rightly, J.T. referred to it as what is distinctive in the saints as over against all the uncleanness that is around us.

G.R.C. Primarily it is what is distinctive of Christ.

Rem. Quite so, seen in Him, and then reflected in the saints.

G.R.C. Exactly; because it is a female animal; and it is in contrast to the scarlet. There is that which distinguishes men of the world which is called here cedar wood and scarlet; there is the hyssop too -- false humility -- the scarlet. But the red here is I suppose like the ram skins dyed red in the tabernacle; it is divine distinctiveness.

Ques. Were you desirous of stressing the urgency with us now of getting clear of the many matters? You referred to Paul's word in 2 Corinthians 10:6, "Having in readiness to avenge all disobedience". You had not in mind that matters now should drift on amongst the saints, had you?

G.R.C. No; I think it is becoming evident now that the time has arrived for finalisation.

Ques. Does not verse 20 bear on this matter, as to one who does not avail himself? The word is the defiling of the sanctuary of Jehovah. Would we not keep that as the standard before us in this exercise?

G.R.C. So that it bears upon what we are on. The priestly service, the sanctuary of Jehovah, and all that is going on there, is in peril.

Rem. "Purify ourselves from every pollution of flesh and spirit" -- as you have quoted. I would like to make a comment on that for your observation. If I attempt to cleanse myself from associations, and am not concerned about the motives of my heart, and influences that may be impure affecting my mind, then there is only one word for that, I am a hypocrite. But if I am content with a purity of motive within, and not concerned with the outward side, then am I not attempting the impossible?

G.R.C. Yes, and they are both condemned, both of those ideas are condemned in the beginning of Leviticus 11. The animals that chew the cud that have not a cloven hoof are unclean, as also those that have the cloven hoof but have not chewed the cud.

Rem. Yes, so it is the whole man, spirit, soul and body that God is after.

G.R.C. That is it.

Rem. If someone said they were getting free to be subject to the brethren, you would still encourage them to go on on those lines, and they would get help for themselves inwardly.

G.R.C. Yes, you would encourage them to get to God, and to allow this type to be before their eyes, before the eyes of the priest.

Ques. May I ask why the blood is sprinkled before the tent of meeting? It is not taken inside like Leviticus 16.

G.R.C. Because I think the fellowship is involved. It is not a question here of approach to God; that is the day of atonement with the blood going in. But here an unclean person forfeits his right for fellowship.

Ques. Would it bear the application, too, of where our Lord was crucified, in the public position? It was here where the blood of Jesus was shed.

G.R.C. Yes, quite so. The red heifer is slaughtered outside the camp. With the sin offering, it was slaughtered at the altar and burnt outside the camp. But this is the most awful view of the death of Christ, I think, that we have. It was the way that God would have Aaron's staff used, Moses made the mistake in using his own staff; he lifted up his hand with his staff. He had done that before -- with his staff he had smitten the rock, in Exodus -- but at this stage of church recovery, the revival of the priesthood, and so on, having come to pass, it is not the time for that. The word was "speak to the Rock", and instead of that he spoke to the people. He had not a word from God for the people, it was a word from himself; and we know how serious the consequences were. What I believe has marked the current times -- I mean the last 50 years -- has been priestly speaking. Is that so?

Rem. So that Jehovah was hallowed in them.

G.R.C. Yes.

THE HIGH PRIEST AND THE SPIRIT

Hebrews 8:1 - 2; Numbers 21:17 - 18; Numbers 24:5 - 7; Hebrews 2:11 - 12

G.R.C. I thought we might consider this afternoon the great fact that we have such an High Priest on the one hand, and the great fact that we have the Spirit on the other -- one being complementary to the other, in view of the service of God -- in view of being available to the Lord Jesus as the Minister of the holy places. We were considering yesterday afternoon the way the priesthood is established in chapters 17 and 18 of Numbers, Aaron's staff bearing witness to the living and heavenly Priest. We have such a One -- Hebrews 8:1 -- and there is no life outside of Him; He lives in the power of an indissoluble life, and if we live it is because He lives; as He says, "because I live ye also shall live", John 14:19. In the experimental history in Numbers the assertion of the priesthood in that attractive way leads to movement on the part of the people; it leads rapidly to a recognition of the Spirit, which is really complementary. For if we realise that we live because Christ lives, then the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus becomes a primary thing in our thoughts. So as the result of the priesthood being established, the assembly drinks of the water from the rock -- Aaron's staff coming into evidence. We have had priestly speaking for many years, and we have drunk of the water from the rock, which leads on in certain rapid movements to giving the Spirit His true place in the song -- though the brazen serpent was a painful lesson -- this song which Israel sang out of joy of heart, not commanded to do so my Moses, but it says, "Then Israel sang this song, Rise up well! sing unto it". It changed the

whole character of things, and that is what it does for us. We are thankful for every help and adjustment we have had as to the true place of the Spirit, both in the responsible sphere and in the sphere of praise; the Lord has helped us wonderfully. And the collective side is specially in mind in Numbers 21, "Assemble the people and I will give them water". So there is typically the giving the Spirit His true place. Then in chapter 24 that results in the testimonial sphere in the saints being viewed in their fertility in a dry and thirsty land in the wilderness. We find that, as in the gain of the Spirit, the saints are in freshness and power and fertility, which I believe is the substantial background for the service of God in the sanctuary -- what we are substantially in the testimonial sphere.

As we have noticed, the children of Israel were at the last encampment, and they are viewed by Balaam as in the good of being set together in the order which this book prescribes. "How goodly are thy tents, Jacob, and thy tabernacle, Israel!" Typically, they are viewed now as happily and restfully in the setting under the sovereign ordering of God as set out in the first four chapters; no complaints, no murmurings. They are as in the recognition of the Spirit, and the refreshment that He gives. And then the fertility -- what they are for Christ and for God; "Like valleys are they spread forth, like gardens by the river side, like aloe trees which Jehovah hath planted, like cedars beside the waters". There is substantially there all that is needed in the service of God, even the cedars. Then the water flowing in abundance in verse 7; it is a scene of abundance in the way of spiritual power and refreshment and fertility -- I suppose we might say in testimony in the glad tidings. I wondered whether this was the substantial background in the testimonial and responsible sphere for the service of God in the assembly in Hebrews 2.

Hebrews does not develop this side; it is in the main engaged with what is more individual. And yet the other is in mind, that we have such an High Priest, and He is the Minister of the holy places; and in chapter 2, the assembly service is referred to. But, as I say, I think in the experimental sphere, the apprehension of Christ as the living and heavenly Priest has led us on to an appreciation of the Spirit -- for we need both sides. We have such an High Priest but, according to Numbers, we have the Spirit as the Well, the source of supply and refreshment, in the testimonial position, and available to us thus in the service of God.

Ques. Would the Spirit in His service always have in mind the saints as available to Christ as the Minister of the holy places, and High Priest seated on the right hand of the throne of the greatness in the heavens?

G.R.C. Yes I am sure. That was the objective really one had in mind in this reading, that we should be available for the Lord as the Minister of the holy places, and that in the testimonial sphere there should be nothing to hinder that, that we should be in keeping with Numbers 21 and Numbers 24. Happily and restfully and with satisfied hearts in the position we have been given in the testimonial sphere, so that we are ready and available for the Minister.

Ques. And the Minister in His place where He is. Is it not important to get hold of that? He is not only High Priest, but He is seated at the right hand of the throne, and of the Greatness in the heavens. Does not that give warrant for the most exalted praise to God?

G.R.C. It does. So that the assembly is the heavenly sanctuary: we belong to the heavenlies, and that is not out of keeping with what we have at the end of Numbers in the passages we have read; because, viewed here in responsibility, the tabernacle of testimony is a heavenly thing.

Ques. Would the fact that it is pitched imply a provisional order at present obtaining in the assembly?

G.R.C. I think so. We have not got to finality yet. The tabernacle of testimony is still in movement; we find it in Revelation in heaven, the Levites have carried it. It says "the temple of the tabernacle of witness", Revelation 15:5. It is still called the tabernacle of witness or testimony. It is a remarkable statement; as though the Levites have done their work; all the movements were completed, and now the tabernacle is where it belongs. But I would have thought that the Lord pitched the true tabernacle at Pentecost.

Rem. And with a view to what is universal in praise to God.

G.R.C. Yes; so that we have had before us the idea of the tabernacle of testimony, that the testimony of the Christ is enshrined there, and the testimony of God. So that while we have not reached Christ's day yet, there is a sense, no doubt, in which the tabernacle can be undertaken as representing heaven and earth, as all under Christ's sway. But then we have not reached that day yet; but the assembly, as the tabernacle of testimony, has enshrined in it the testimony of the Christ, which would relate to Christ's day: and the testimony of God, which would relate to the day of God. So that it is all here in testimony in this vessel. Therefore, from that standpoint, I think, we can rightly regard the assembly as the true tabernacle which the Lord has pitched and not men -- though we can make a wider application of it in its day of display.

Ques. Would the Lord's position as the One who has sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Greatness in the heavens be described to impress us with the glory of His own Person?

G.R.C. It would. I think it was mentioned yesterday that it is "set himself down", according to the note; it really implies His deity. Yet, as High Priest, His manhood is especially emphasised; though,

of course, the deity of the Person, who is the High Priest, is carefully guarded. And that is the wonder of it.

Rem. So in having to do with Him we are immediately impressed by His majesty and glory.

G.R.C. Yes, and the wonderful thing is we have Him: that is the summary of all that has gone before in this book -- especially from chapter 3 onwards, where it speaks of Him as the Apostle and High Priest of our confession. From that point on, nothing much more is said about the apostle; but what is developed is the High Priest, the wonder of His priesthood, His qualifications for the office so perfect. And now there is the summary, that we have such a One High Priest; we have Him; He is ours. That is the point in Numbers 17, we have such an One.

Ques. Is there a distinction in your mind between the High Priest and the Minister of the sanctuary?

G.R.C. The distinction that had been in my mind is that the High Priest is the One we have; "we have such a one high priest", He is ours, and we need Him; if we live it is because He lives. But I thought the Minister of the holy places was more what He is to God. In a way the offices are closely connected; I mean Aaron typically was both. But I wondered if the Minister was that aspect of His service that related to God, that God should have His portion. But then unless we had such a High Priest to support us and sustain us in life, the Minister would have no vessels to use.

Ques. Did not F.E.R. say that priesthood always had approach in view? I wondered whether we are sometimes inclined to limit the priestly grace of Christ as meeting our circumstances down here, which it blessedly does; but does that take on a fresh lustre when we consider that it always has the approach in view?

G.R.C. I think that is most important. It says

in Hebrews 5:1, "Every high priest taken from amongst men is established for men in things relating to God". That is, the service of the priest is not limited to things relating to us and our circumstances.

Ques. Do you not think it is significant that in the wilderness Aaron died; but Eleazar, his son, was not to be concerned so much with the people and their infirmities as with the land and the things of God.

G.R.C. And I think that is what Hebrews is intended to bring us to. Hebrews dwells much on the Aaronic side and the side of infirmity; but it is evident that the book has in mind helping us to appreciate Christ in the Eleazar type, because the Spirit has in mind that we should not stop short of the full purpose of God.

Ques. Do these references in chapter 7 show the blend of that, as to His intercession -- able to save us completely, and so on? It is those who approach God that are in mind, which would confirm what you are saying as to both sides of the matter.

G.R.C. Yes, He is able to save completely those who come to God by Him. That is a magnificent statement, coming to God by Him. He ever lives to intercede for us.

Rem. The same expression, used in chapter 2: 17, "in things relating to God", where it speaks of Him being a merciful and faithful High Priest, very touchingly links with His taking hold of the seed of Abraham.

G.R.C. I think it is very important to get that side clear in our minds. The Lord as priest will come down to our side of things in a sympathetic way into the smallest things of life -- to help, to succour, to sympathise and help; but in order to save us completely. He is able to save us in every way in order that we might be completely liberated for the service of God.

Ques. Do you distinguish between the High Priest

and the great priest? The great Priest being spoken of in chapter 10 in relation to this matter of approach -- "Let us approach". In verse 15 the matter of the High Priest comes in as you have been saying in the end of chapter 4 and the beginning of chapter 5, and connected with sympathy and support in the wilderness. But I wondered if the great Priest had more in mind our approach: and earlier, in connection with the Melchisedec priesthood, it says, "He, because of his continuing for ever, has the priesthood unchangeable. Whence also he is able to save completely those who approach by him to God", Hebrews 7:24, 25.

G.R.C. Yes, it seems interesting that in verse 14 of chapter 4, both adjectives are used, "having therefore a great high priest". Then in verse 15 it misses out the "great" -- when it comes to sympathy, it just says High Priest. And the same in chapter 5, where it is a question of His sympathetic help on our side. But, as you say, when you come to chapter 10, and it is a question of finding our place within the veil, we have a great Priest, that adjective is used.

Ques. Would you say that the great Priest draws attention to the greatness of the Person rather than the office?

G.R.C. I think that; and I am just wondering whether the great Priest would include the idea of Minister of the holy places! Where it speaks, in these earlier chapters, of the High Priest, it is because we need Him. We need to know, too, His high priestly work in the offering of Himself. In chapter 8, verse 3, it says, "Every high priest is constituted for the offering both of gifts and sacrifices; whence it is needful that this one also should have something which he may offer"; and the following chapters, 9 and 10, develop what He has to offer. It helped me some years ago when J.T. pointed that out, that the great high priestly offering which has laid the basis

for all service on our side, was the offering of Himself -- that which He alone could do. And as chapters 9 and 10 develop that, His coming into the world in chapter 10 is introduced as standing related to it. And then it says, "by which will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all", chapter 10: 10. That great high priestly work was His own, without which there could be no approach or priestly activity in the assembly. He has thus secured the sanctified company. But then, when it speaks of the great priest in chapter 10, it is the great priest over the house of God; it includes the idea of the minister -- He is over the house of God; He is over all the vessels of the sanctuary.

Ques. I wanted to ask about that; He is Son over God's house; and then the scripture you have just called attention to. Could you say something more about "over the house"?

G.R.C. I think chapter 3 stresses it from the standpoint of authority; because there the contrast is with Moses, who was faithful in all God's house. But Jesus is the Son over it; it gives a peculiar lustre to His authority, that the Son should be over it now; and He is the builder. But then I would think in chapter 10, the idea of the great Priest over it is in view of the service; it is the Priest there, it is in contrast to Aaron -- not in contrast to Moses. Do you think that is right?

Rem. I do. I think F.E.R., in his ministry, stressed that in the chapter of approach the greatness of the Person is emphasised as the One who conducts us to the Father.

Ques. In relation to your earlier remark, does not this thought of sitting down stand in relation to the great work that He has done in offering Himself, the completeness of it, that He can now sit "down on the right hand of the throne of the greatness in the heavens", Hebrews 8:1? Does not that lie behind all

the service that He is carrying on in the sanctuary now?

G.R.C. Yes, so that the great inaugural sacrifice is accomplished, and therefore He set Himself down.

Ques. And when it says "we have such a one", is it intended to bring that continually to our affections; that the way He took up His priesthood should be livingly associated in our hearts with the place that He has now?

G.R.C. You are thinking of how the offering of Himself would captivate our affections completely; and then to think that we have Him now in His risen life. He has offered Himself, but He is ours; how He has proved that He is ours in going into death! What more could He have done to prove it? But now, as the living and heavenly priest, He is ours; we have such an One. Have we appropriated Him? It is like Aaron's staff that budded; have we appropriated our great High Priest?

Ques. Would that involve our complete identification with Him where He is?

G.R.C. Yes; so that "he that sanctifies, and those sanctified are all of one; for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren", chapter 2: 11. We have been sanctified by the offering of His body once for all. What a cost! but now we are associated with Him there.

Ques. Have we perhaps been inclined to think of the Lord as the Minister of the holy places, as initiating the movement in the service of God, and the Spirit coming in as the power for movement? But are you suggesting now that the Lord, being complementary to the Spirit, helps us in relation to the movement too?

G.R.C. Oh yes, I would think that. I would think we need the Lord all through as well as the Spirit in the way of support. We have such a One High Priest.

Ques. Does the sonship of Christ give a kind of fulness and glory to His priesthood? I was thinking of, firstly, the greatness of who He is; and then the love that He is able to bring into expression and flow in the saints.

G.R.C. I think so. So how easy authority is in Christianity, when you think that He is the Son over God's house! Your heart is drawn out to Him; the Son is in charge. And then it says "a Son perfected for ever", in verse 28 of chapter 7. Then in chapter 5, as we were noticing yesterday, He is the author of eternal salvation to those who obey Him; but the One we obey is the Son, who though He were the Son, He learned obedience. Well all that is so attractive.

Ques. Would you be free to say a word as to the bearing of the bridegroom decking himself with the priestly turban? Does that have a bearing upon the point at which the Lord's service as priest in relation to the holy places is reached? The matter of bridal response, and assembly relations with Christ Himself would seem to flow on to that point where the Bridegroom, having secured His own portion, puts on the priestly turban. Is that so?

G.R.C. That is an interesting scripture. I would think that we need the support of the One we have as High Priest at all times, and especially as approaching the great occasion. We can rely on Him; so that we need Him in that way -- His support and help all through, even from the beginning of the service. But then we enter into marital relations with His support; and I think the idea of the bridegroom decking himself with the priestly turban may indicate that, subsequent to bridal response and union, the Lord would in a definite way take up His place as the Minister of the holy places. He would have then the full service in mind, as having the assembly entirely at His disposal. So the word is "in the midst of the assembly will I sing thy praise".

Ques. Do we need the priestly services of Christ even in relation to our response to the Spirit?

G.R.C. We do. I would think in a general way as the Minister of the holy places, He directs all the service.

Ques. Is it somewhat like David over the courses?

G.R.C. Yes, I would think that. So that while we need the Spirit all through, we worship by the Spirit of God; that is, the whole idea of service Godward -- we cannot do anything without the Spirit. Yet on the other hand I would have thought that as soon as the Lord comes in at the supper, that He takes control even relative to response to Himself. We might not think of Him at that point officially, as it were, as the Minister; but surely, He would take control and all things come under His influence.

Ques. Do we not need help on that line? The question of spontaneity is important; but even what is there spontaneously needs to be regulated.

G.R.C. Yes. So I would think that as the Lord comes in He takes over the regulation of the service; He would even indicate I suppose the length of time we should devote to Himself; He has got the whole service in mind. And then, as we have been helped to see, He would also indicate and direct our attention to the Spirit after we have responded to Him. And then of course that leads on to the full thought of the service, the full idea of it -- "My Father and your Father, and my God and your God". It is then we see the Minister in His full glory as Minister, directing things.

Ques. Is that why the expression in chapter 8 is "the right hand of the throne of the greatness in the heavens"? In chapter 1, where we have the glory of His Person emphasising His deity, it is "the right hand of the greatness on high", verse 3. But for all the great things to become available under His hand, and to lead us into the glory of them, He takes His place

at the right hand of the throne. I wondered if, in that way, it would link up somewhat with John 6, where the Lord in His manhood says "if then ye see the Son of man ascending up where he was before", verse 62. That might link with Hebrews 1:3, but then immediately afterwards He says, "It is the Spirit which quickens"; that is now, as from the throne, He would direct everything in relation to the service, even as to calling attention to the Spirit.

G.R.C. That is good. You are bringing in the throne then with the idea that He regulates everything in the service.

Rem. Quite so. So that in chapter 10 he sets Himself down at the right hand of God in the greatness of who He is. But in chapter 12 He "is set down at the right hand of the throne of God", with a view to all that becoming available to us. So that from the very beginning of the service He is available to take us and control everything in power until we reach God Himself.

G.R.C. That seems a very interesting suggestion as to the control and regulation of everything.

Ques. Would the word in Ezekiel 43 fit in now, "And the Spirit lifted me up, and brought me into the inner court ... and a man was standing by me. And he said unto me, Son of man, this is the place of my throne ... where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever", verses 6 and 7. Would the general setting of that passage bring in the Spirit, the movement into the inner parts, and the man standing by -- the Lord Jesus still as Man to serve God and us?

G.R.C. Yes; I think that is a helpful passage. The Spirit lifted him up; it is the Spirit that quickens; we cannot do without the Spirit; but the man was standing by, and I suppose that is true all through the service. We have such an High Priest, He is always standing by to support. And then he hears a voice

speaking to him out of the house; He says "This is the place of my throne, the place of the soles of my feet". One has often thought that that especially relates to the highest level of the service; that is, "My God and your God" -- because it is God in majesty there. "This is the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever".

Ques. Is what you are saying seen again in chapter 13 of Hebrews? "By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise continually to God, that is, the fruit of the lips confessing his name", Hebrews 13:15. I was thinking of what you are saying as to the Lord's service right through. It is by Him and in Him.

G.R.C. Quite so. Rem. Peter confirms that, the spiritual sacrifices are acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

G.R.C. Quite so. Those are interesting references.

Ques. Why are the holy places and the true tabernacle mentioned separately, please?

G.R.C. I had simply thought the holy places were the distinctive parts of the tabernacle; He is the Minister of the holy places.

Ques. Would you say that, linking on with your earlier references to the Spirit, and as to the matter of life in us, and as to the Lord having pitched the true tabernacle at Pentecost, He was the One who poured out the Spirit, the anointing of it? So that in the wilderness epistle, 1 Corinthians, it says in chapter 12, "So also is the Christ", an anointed vessel; but it is a vessel functioning in life. And do not the chapters following, which involve the services, suggest that everything is functioning rightly, not only in the service of praise itself, but in the testimonial setting also?

G.R.C. I think that is good. So that you mean the services of the court and the holy place are filled out; and then of course we have our own distinctive place in the holies.

Rem. If we contemplated more the fact that Christ is sitting there at all times, when we come together for this occasion, of which we are now speaking, would we not have the Spirit's help to bring us into line with the One who is available to serve us? Perhaps sometimes we are waiting for Him to move to help us. I am thinking of the glory of the fact that He is always sitting there. In Chronicles, the priests were unable to stand to serve, but this glorious Priest sits, does He not? and serves continually.

G.R.C. So you mean we come together in the light of that, with the faith of that in our souls, and we have the Spirit. One has often thought that the Spirit strikes the chord; we do not know how the meeting is going to begin, but the Spirit, if our state is right, unfailingly strikes the chord, and His quickening power is known. We have referred to the Spirit, as it were, lifting us up; the service proceeds, and then the Lord comes in. It does not alter the fact that from another standpoint He is seated. But He graciously comes in, like John 20, when He stood in the midst; that is, with a view to our movements until we reach our heavenly position, too -- raised up together and made to sit down in the heavenlies -- till we are in keeping with Him, in the sense of restfulness before God.

Ques. Might I ask as to 2 Corinthians 3. Do I understand that lordship attaching to Christ is in relation to His being Minister of the sanctuary, and regulating the service; whereas lordship in the Spirit stands more connected with our side in view of our moving forward in the service? I am thinking of the word in 2 Corinthians 3 as to the "Lord Spirit".

G.R.C. It seems like that. We are transformed; that seems to be our side; and in that chapter it says it is the Spirit that quickens. So that we look on the glory of the Lord; but then the Spirit on our side transforms us from glory to glory, so that we are

capacitated to take up each feature of the service as the Minister moves in it.

Ques. As to Numbers 21, do you view it as related to seasons of ministry, and building up the saints constitutionally?

G.R.C. You are thinking of the word "Assemble the people".

Ques. Yes; and following the brazen serpent. Is it a question of being built up constitutionally in view of the service?

G.R.C. That is what I thought. I thought that the chapter is constitutional; it is really a state arrived at, where our state of soul is singing to the Spirit. There are particular times when we sing to Him, but it is a kind of state of soul, "Then Israel sang this song". You are always rejoicing in the thought that the Spirit is with us and in us, at all times, according to Romans 8 individually, but according to Corinthians collectively, which links more with Numbers 21"Assemble the people together". We rejoice in that whenever we come together.

Ques. Otherwise, if we were not able and ready to sing to the Spirit it would be an impossible demand upon our souls to worship and come under His influence in moments of privilege, would it not?

G.R.C. It certainly would.

Ques. Do you think this reference to the Spirit, "Sing unto it", is what should distinguish the service of God and the service of believers in the present time in Christendom in its dead condition? Is there not a testimonial setting to it; and would not the presence of the saints as recognising the Spirit, and being helped by the Spirit, be a testimony to God in such conditions in Christendom today?

G.R.C. I am sure that is right, And that seems to be why the Spirit is so prominent in the testimonial epistles, because if we are giving Him His place there will be the evidence of life, whatever kind of meeting

people come in to. And even in our individual path, wherever people meet one whose state of soul is singing to the Spirit, surely there will be a testimony. If they come into our meetings, well, there would be power and refreshment, as it says, and a state of things will come about like we have in chapter 24: 6, "Like valleys are they spread forth, like gardens by the river side". There is all the potential fertility and fruitfulness for Christ and for God; gardens, aloe trees, cedars. But what a testimony! And then the public testimony, specially in "water shall flow out of his buckets". If people come in, there is abundant supplies for them. Is it not all involved in the recognition of the Spirit?

Rem. It lends a glory to the completion of wilderness exercises, does it not?

G.R.C. It does.

Ques. Is it a kind of result of the priestly service of Christ? Attention has been called to the distinction between the holy places and the true tabernacle which the Lord has pitched; the holy places suggesting the inside position I think, and the true tabernacle more the court, the outside position. I think it has been said the same word is used in regard to the true tabernacle which the Lord has pitched. It is the same word that is used in Numbers 24, like aloes which Jehovah hath planted; it is the same reference I understand.

G.R.C. That is an interesting remark.

Ques. In regard to the conjunction in Hebrews 8:2, "minister of the holy places and of the true tabernacle", if I recall rightly, F.E.R. said the holy places are where God dwells and walks. Would that connect with 2 Corinthians 6:16, "I will dwell among them and walk among them"? The Lord would serve in relation to the saints in that regard, would He not? But then "the true tabernacle which the Lord has pitched and not man", has in view the service of God specially, do you think?

G.R.C. Yes, I would think that. I think what you say as to God dwelling among us and walking among us is very affecting, as we think of the holy places.

Ques. Referring to chapter 24, would you say a word as to the tents and tabernacles. The tents of Jacob, and "thy tabernacles O Israel". Are you viewing them as representing the households of the saints?

G.R.C. I thought that was the primary idea, that they are viewed as in their setting in divine ordering according to the early chapters of the book. They could not be otherwise; the people are now typically in the gain of the Spirit. They would be restfully in the position assigned by God relative to His tabernacle.

Rem. They are not only in testimony but they are fruitful, are they?

G.R.C. Quite so; and Jacob and Israel are in keeping. There is the Jacob side, "Thy tents Jacob, and thy tabernacles Israel". The great feature of this part of the book is that word "Israel", not the children of Israel. "Then Israel sang this song". Over and over again in these chapters you get what Israel does. It is because they have arrived at the gain of the Spirit, the idea of the "prince of God", Genesis 32:28 -- see J. N. D's marginal Note.

Ques. Is that the reason why the Spirit is prominent in this parable? In the third it is the Spirit of God that comes upon him, and brings to light the thought of God's husbandry.

G.R.C. Yes I think so.

Ques. In your opening remarks you referred to the service of the Lord and the service of the Spirit being complementary to one another. Is not that one of the greatest features of the dispensation? Two Divine Persons are working hand in hand to bring about the great thoughts of God, and it applies really right through the service. And then in the scripture

that has been referred to in 2 Corinthians the Lord and the Spirit seem almost identical together; and then in this passage in Numbers 21 "Rise up well! Sing unto it: Well which the princes digged, which the nobles of the people hallowed out at the word of the lawgiver". We have got the Lord and the Spirit brought in there.

G.R.C. I do not think we can emphasise this too much, the utmost importance of it. We have the Lord on high, and we have the Spirit here, and the position of One is complementary to the position of the Other; and we need to fully avail ourselves of these resources in the Lord and in the Spirit. Both are essential to us. And it seems to me, therefore, that if we recognised the priesthood of Christ according to Numbers 17, He would, through ministry and otherwise, in priestly grace, rapidly bring us to Numbers 21, to the recognition of the Spirit and His place. And now everything is ready for the service.

Ques. Does the thought of the Paraclete -- Comforter -- applying to both Divine Persons, bear on this? J.N.D.'s note being 'one who manages our affairs'?

G.R.C. Yes, One managing our affairs on high, in all things pertaining to God; and the Other managing our affairs down here that we might be ready and available to the Minister.

Ques. Are not those two sides combined when the Lord says in Matthew 28, verse 18, "All power has been given me in heaven and on earth"?

G.R.C. You are thinking He exercises His power amongst the saints on earth by the Spirit. The Spirit maintains His authority, the authority of Christ amongst the saints.

Rem. He goes on to speak of the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Spirit.

Ques. Is it a remarkable thing that the Lord charged the disciples by the Spirit during the 40 days; is not that to convey to us the present position?

G.R.C. I think so. You mean that what the Lord would do now He does by the Spirit. If He gives us impressions and directions, they surely come to us by the Spirit at the present time.

Ques. Is your thought that there is no part of the service that is not perfectly and divinely provided for us in this dual service involving Christ and the Spirit? And would you look, in addition to that service, for some specific worship to Each of those Persons in the service?

G.R.C. I would, very much so. So that while Numbers 21 is more a state of soul, that we are singing to the Spirit, we give expression to it vocally at suited times. How often we give expression to it in reading meetings, and ministry meetings, where we feel the need of the Spirit to bring in the water, the streams of refreshing; but then we have been helped as to the suited time in the service of God.

Ques. Does this dual service continue in conditions of access to the Father and to God? And would there not be in those conditions of access a more glorious understanding of Divine Persons as They stand related to Each Other, and not relative to wilderness conditions and conditions of lordship?

G.R.C. I think that is very helpful. I think this morning one got a sense more than ever before of the wonder of the truth that God is One; the oneness of all the operations, diverse in one sense, yet in glorious oneness.

Ques. Would we not need to apprehend that rightly in view of worship?

G.R.C. I think so, especially, you mean, at the close of the service, the worship of God.

Rem. And the worship of the Spirit, as He stands in His service relative to access to the Father.

G.R.C. Quite so.

Ques. Is that what you have in mind in making reference to the time of the worship of the Spirit?

G.R.C. Yes, that is what I have in mind. Would you think that?

Rem. Yes, but develop that a bit for us, please.

G.R.C. I think it has been thoroughly confirmed in practice, that it is a matter of the suited time. To bring in a note of worship to the Spirit while we are responding to the Lord, for instance, is a kind of divergence; it is a breaking in upon a matter which should be filled out by itself -- and the Spirit is with us in filling it out -- He is with us in every part of the service. The point is, when is the most suitable time to express our appreciation.

Rem. We had previously rather built much on verse 17 of Genesis 24 "Let me, I pray thee, sip a little water out of thy pitcher", as perhaps suggesting it came in earlier in the morning meeting. But I think we have been helped to see that that links with the wilderness position, and it confirms what you have been saying as to Numbers 21. Would you say that?

G.R.C. Yes, and the way we value Him in our other gatherings.

Rem. Reference has been made to Joshua 5, the man with the drawn sword; and they come to a point where the man says: "No; for as captain of the army of Jehovah am I now come. Then Joshua fell upon his face to the earth and worshipped, and said to him, What saith my lord unto his servant?" verse 14. He fell upon his face to the earth, and worshipped, and called him 'lord'. It is thought that is a reference to the Spirit. And is it significant that this is just at the point of entering the land?

G.R.C. It would be the point of entering upon the full thought of the service, "My Father and your Father". I am not taking simply the setting in Joshua, but the full service; and I suppose union with Christ is in the land, it is in heavenly places. Our links with Him are all as the ascended One, whether as His brethren or as His bride. But then, as we are about

to enter into the full service, suggested in "My Father and your Father and my God and your God", that is where the prostration to the Holy Spirit seems to be right. And I take it, that kind of expression, falling on the face and worshipping, is the fullest thought of worship. There is a sense in which every response to a Divine Person is worship; the word 'latreuo', the word used in Hebrews 9 to worship the living God, as the note indicates, is any outgoing to a Divine Person. But then there are different degrees of that, and when you come to falling on the face, it is prostration.

Rem. I think that clarifies the whole matter for us.

Ques. Is it not important therefore to have the Lord before us all the time? We must keep our eyes on Him and see what He is doing, where He is. And then when we come to Hebrews 2, we must be listening to what He is singing, must we not, to enter into this phase of the service?

G.R.C. Yes, I think the idea of the Minister as well as the Mediator shows how we need Him all the time, we need Him for direction, as the Minister of the holy places; and I rather think that in that title "Minister of the holy places", we would have to go beyond Aaron, because Hebrews 2 goes beyond Aaron. You get the idea of Aaron as a type in "he that sanctifies and those who are sanctified are all of one"; but it immediately goes on to David and Solomon. "I will declare thy name to my brethren in the midst of the assembly". Really in those days, the service was under the direction of the king, so I take it that as Minister of the holy places the Lord fills out what is typically suggested in Aaron and in Solomon's direction of the whole service.

Ques. In Aaron as minister, does He not provide a full and adequate response in the light of what He is as the effulgence? The effulgence has its answer in His ministry of the sanctuary.

G.R.C. So, as F.E.R. said, the approach is equal to the revelation.

Rem. And even in the marking off of Aaron in Exodus 28 "that he may serve me as priest" is emphasised more than once.

G.R.C. That is good. That is, God's side is stressed there, not our side and our needing Him; but "that he may serve me as priest".

Ques. Referring to Hebrews 2, would we ever bear in mind that the One who made the declaration is in Himself the perfect and full answer to it? And does singing in the midst of the assembly speak of the unique response of Christ, for His response must be unique in the suited environment of the midst of the assembly to His Father and to His God, would you think?

G.R.C. That is really the wonder of Christianity, that the One who is the effulgence of God's glory and in whom all the fulness is expressed, is the One in whom there is the full and complete response; there are the two sides. But then another great wonder is that in the assembly there is a vessel adequate for the Lord to sing in the midst of it. He is singing in surroundings capable of appreciating His song, insofar as the creature could, and of joining in the song.

Ques. And in that sense, would it be just to say that the response is equal to the revelation?

G.R.C. I would think that God has secured in the assembly, as under the headship of Christ, a worthy response; with Christ singing in the midst of the assembly there is a full and adequate response to God.

Rem. The expression "filled even to all the fulness of God", Ephesians 3:19, would confirm that.

G.R.C. That does seem to be so.

Ques. How would Christ singing in the midst of the assembly have its practical effect upon us as assembled? How would it be discerned? Many such questions would come to the mind.

G.R.C. I would think the Spirit, if we were more amenable to Him, would give us some impression of the kind of response that is ascending, or going up from the heart of Christ to His Father and His God.

Ques. Does that particularly emphasise what you were saying as to the complementary service of the Spirit and the Lord, that we can only hear what the Lord is singing as we are particularly dependent upon the Spirit?

G.R.C. I would say so. I feel if we were more amenable to the Spirit we might catch those notes more. J.N.D. speaks of "the inspiring song" that He sings, and as to whether we are capable of joining in it.

Rem. And the wonderful grace that would give us to have a part in it, as it says "Thou art holy, thou that dwellest amid the praises of Israel", Psalm 22:3. Is it not a marvellous thing that we can come into these praises?

G.R.C. Song is the result of joy, it is a joyful heart that sings; and it helps us to think of Christ coming out of those depths, when He says "Thou art holy, O thou that dwellest amid the praises of Israel" -- coming out of the depths and entering the presence of His Father and God. What joy was in His heart, the sufferings were over; what joy and gladness, what an inspiring song!

Rem. I suppose one of the practical effects would be that every expression of worship and affection would be quite beyond the individual appreciation, but would be assembly emotions; would it not?

G.R.C. It is one of the things we have been helped on over the years, that it is the idea of assembly response, and we being in it bodywise, one heart, one soul -- so that we do not take the supper as so many individuals, and we do not take it as a sacrament.

Rem. The reference to "above all which we ask or think", Ephesians 3:20, suggests that in the

creature vessel itself there is limitation; but there is the power that works in us: "according to the power which works in us". Does not that give the link, as you have been saying, to the exalted character of assembly response -- "to him be glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus"? I am thinking of the sensitiveness, and the ability to penetrate into these things, according to the Spirit's power.

G.R.C. "Exceedingly above all which we ask or think". It is wonderful, the possibilities suggested there.

Rem. I think you have said elsewhere that we might talk about limitation as to ourselves; but when we think of what you have been stressing this afternoon -- the coordinated service of two Divine Persons, and the assembly being the vessel that is employed in the service -- it all enhances the greatness of that system of glory.

G.R.C. I think it is wonderful to think about that, the coordinated services of the Lord and the Spirit, and then what the assembly is as Divine workmanship -- the acme of Divine skill and workmanship. So that if you put those things together you can get an idea of the wonderful results for God.

Ques. Does "in the midst of the assembly" suggest that the assembly is a vessel of music and song, and that His praises resound in the assembly in that sense?

G.R.C. Yes, that is what I would understand; and as the acme of Divine workmanship, how sensitive the assembly is! Think of the operations that have gone into it that there should be a vessel sensitive enough to catch the notes of Christ, and to be in sympathy with them, and in creature measure to take them on!

Ques. Would "in the midst" suggest that as Minister of the holy places He had complete control of the service?

G.R.C. That is what I would say.

Ques. And would it require "the midst of the assembly", that even any local gathering should be in the light of the whole assembly position?

G.R.C. Is it not normal that when the Lord comes in, He comes into the local position; but if things are right, do we not, as in His presence, pass out of time and locality?

Rem. Yes, but are we not prone to try and detain the Lord in the local conditions, but the assembly would be what is universal?

G.R.C. That is right. So that in our spirits the thing is to pass out of time and locality, and in our spirits to be with the Lord relative to the full thoughts of God.

Ques. I would like to ask in regard to understanding the Lord singing in the midst to the assembly -- it does not seem to suggest that we exactly hear what He says. But we would be helped, in looking upon the faces of the brothers and the sisters, as the service goes on, to see and understand that the Lord is singing in the midst of the assembly.

G.R.C. So that you think it would affect the countenances of the brethren.

Ques. What is the general distinction and connection between the thought of the headship of Christ, and this view of Him as the Minister of the sanctuary?

G.R.C. The way it appeals to me is that headship in Colossians and Ephesians would include the thought of Minister of the holy places. No doubt headship has specially the idea of His influence and impulse; but I think it must include this, for "Head" is a comprehensive title and is used in the Gentile epistles to persons who would not necessarily understand the typical language. What do you think?

Rem. Yes, I thought the idea of the Minister of the holy places would be absorbed into the idea of headship.

G.R.C. So that Solomon, the great type of Christ as head, directs the whole service; he includes in his functions, I would say, typically, the office of the Minister of the holy places.

THE LAST ENCAMPMENT

Numbers 22:1; Numbers 23:7 - 10; Numbers 25:1 - 3; Numbers 33:1 - 2,48 - 49; 2 Corinthians 13:5 - 14

One's concern, dear brethren, is that, in company with one's brethren, we may reach the last wilderness encampment, and be in the gain of it. It would mean that we had learnt the lessons of the wilderness. The last encampment is a wonderful place; and, if we are there and in the gain of it, we are ready for the final move. "The last trumpet; for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed", ready to be taken actually into our eternal inheritance; and therefore morally ready to enter in spirit now. The children of Israel reached the last encampment in the verse with which we began: They "encamped in the plains of Moab on the other side of the Jordan from Jericho". The last movements in the wilderness were rapid, following what we had this afternoon: the apprehension of the priestly grace of Christ, the living and heavenly Priest, the greatness of the sanctuary and the service of God in it, the apprehension of the value of the death of Christ according to Numbers 19 -- in its purifying character. Then their drinking of the water from the rock, as it says: "and the assembly drank, and their beasts", Numbers 20:11 -- typically, as a result of the apprehension of Christ as the living Priest on high, and of the speaking to the Rock -- although Moses failed, by striking the rock twice, but God saw to it that the people got the good of it. The result of all that is that you come to rapid movement; and from that point on, the children of Israel are time and again called "Israel", and not simply the children

of Israel. Israel's princeliness, as according to God, was coming to light. So they treat their brother Edom in a princely way; they would not go out to meet him with the sword, although he would come against them with the sword. In the next chapter they vow a vow to Jehovah, as the Canaanite comes out against them, that they would utterly destroy them, and Jehovah listened to the voice of Israel. They are set against the Canaanite; Canaanite means 'trader', and they are set against that principle -- in any way making a trade of the word of God.

Then they rapidly come to that vital point, the brazen serpent. It is a wonderful point to come to. In chapter 17, in connection with Aaron's rod that budded, they proved the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, the living and heavenly Priest; but in coming to the brazen serpent, and looking intently upon it, they arrive at the love of God -- and the end of themselves. But you see, it is only in the measure in which we arrive at God's judgment upon us that we apprehend His love; as the Lord says to the Pharisees: "and pass by the judgment and the love of God", Luke 11:42. It was in that scene of judgment that God's love was told out: "has not spared his own Son, but delivered him up for us all", Romans 8:32 -- the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. And then they proved the communion of the Holy Spirit. "Then Israel sang this song, Rise up well! Sing unto it", Numbers 21:17. You see how rapid the movement is, and the coming to the divine judgment of matters; getting the gain of the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the communion of the Holy Spirit! And those three things are what will be enjoyed unhinderedly if we arrive at and are in the gain of the last encampment. Those are the things characteristic of the last encampment, to be known without hindrance -- the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the

love of God and the communion of the Holy Spirit. They move on, and there is the overthrow of Sihon and Og -- self importance and self indulgence, pride and ease. They have come to the last encampment in the plains of Moab on the other side of the Jordan from Jericho. The enemy is fearful of them; they were not enemies of Moab; but Moab was fearful of those in spiritual power, and so Balak hires Balaam. He would hire him to curse the people, but the curse is turned into a blessing; and we have read the first remarks of Balaam and what comes into his first statement is "Lo, it is a people that shall dwell alone and shall not be reckoned among the nations".

Chapter 33 speaks of their journeys, their goings out; there is the initial going out through the Red Sea, when we accept the doctrine of baptism, and in our measure at the time accept baptism itself. But these journeys bring home the truth of it to us more and more; they are all called the goings out. In the Red Sea we acknowledge that our old man has been crucified with Him; but the working of it out -- so that we are practically free from that old man involves the lessons of the wilderness, a pivotal point in which is the brazen serpent. So that you can understand Balaam saying here, as he beholds Israel, "It is a people that shall dwell alone"; their goings out at this time were so complete -- "they shall not be reckoned among the nations". But then, at this last encampment, referred to again in the beginning of chapter 25 at Shittim -- which as we know means acacias -- "Israel abode in Shittim", the enemy attacks on that very point, the very point as it were that Balaam began with. We are told in chapter 31: 16 "these through the counsel of Balaam, caused the children of Israel to commit sin against Jehovah in the matter of Peor". So that although Balaam had been compelled to speak God's mind about the people, because of the corruption of his motives, he counselled

Moab and Midian as to how they could attack such a people; and the attack was based on that very verse -- it is a people that shall dwell alone. The very thing that he had said about them, he used the light of it that was given him, against the people; and he gives counsel to Balak and Midian, as much as to say: 'Now that is where you can overcome them, that is where you can weaken them -- on that point'.

After all their journeys and goings out they come to the last encampment, and there is a final attack on this particular line. So that even if we could credit ourselves -- which alas we cannot -- with being at the last encampment, we would have to face this. And in fact what we are facing, and have been facing, is pretty much this kind of thing, the counsel of Balaam to strike at the root of things by seducing the saints so that we are no longer a people dwelling alone; so that we are reckoned among the nations, we have a place amongst men. And so this Midianitish snare comes in, the people began to commit fornication with the daughters of Moab; it is the fair and attractive side of the world. The people at the last encampment should not be carried away by the base things of the world, the fair and attractive side of the world, the seducing side. But it says: "And they invited the people to the sacrifices of their gods; and the people ate, and bowed down to their gods, and Israel joined himself to Baal Peor". I suppose there was no graver point in their history than this, in view of the point they had reached with God, that then they should allow themselves to be seduced. And so the very thing that is brought forward here, as an example, suggests the awful seduction of the world. Social status, high positions -- it says in verse 14, "And the name of the man of Israel that was slain, who was slain with the Midianitish woman, was Zimri the son of Salu, the prince of a father's house of the Simeonites. And the name of the Midianitish

woman that was slain was Cozbi, the daughter of Zur; he was tribal head of a father's house in Midian". How this speaks of the seductive side of the world! How the world would flatter us! It would say, 'We want you, you are a clever man, your Christian principles will help, we would like you in our institutions, you are just the man we want'. The world will really say that, and Satan would like to have you; he cannot convert people, but he likes to have converted people to adorn his system; it makes it look respectable. And so we have Phinehas coming forward, jealous with God's jealousy among them, used by God to save the situation. Nevertheless, twenty-four thousand died in the plague, which was a most serious matter.

I think we need to take account of this; God is bringing us, I believe, to this last encampment; so we need to be very vigilant as to the Midianitish snare. But the thing was met, the plague was stayed, and immediately following that, they are numbered for the land in the next chapter; for the land is in view at this last encampment. There was not one left of the old generation except Caleb and Joshua. Here is the new generation, Caleb and Joshua being the link with the old, which gives the continuity of it in Christian experience -- that we are the same persons. But the new generation is now numbered, numbered for the land, and the family side is stressed all through this numbering. You see the family links amongst the brethren; how we need to keep a pure strain; a Midianitish woman with an Israelitish prince is a dreadful mixture! We need the pure strain, if there is to be pure family affections amongst the saints. The moment you get an admixture of the world, it cuts right across divine family affections; you are bringing in something entirely extraneous to the family of God. And we need the basis of family affections if we are to move together into the inheritance.

Indeed Joshua, who was about to be raised up, was of the tribe of Ephraim. You have levitical leadership in Moses and Aaron and Miriam; but you have the tribe of Ephraim, the firstborn; you have the rights of the firstborn, linking more with the family side of things in Joshua. As to David, leadership was according to Judah.

And so this numbering is in view of going into the land. And again it speaks of this encampment in verse 3 of chapter 26, "in the plains of Moab by the Jordan of Jericho". That is where this numbering goes on; it is at this last encampment that the new generation has clearly come to light, and can be taken account of and numbered for the land. Following that, we have the daughters of Zelophehad -- because, you see, the land is in view at this last encampment, nothing less, and the daughters of Zelophehad come forward indicating the true spiritual state that God is looking for, valuing the inheritance. And God answers their desire, this energetic spiritual state that would claim the inheritance. And then following that, God says in chapter 27: 12 to Moses "Get thee up into this mount Abarim, and see the land that I have given unto the children of Israel. And when thou hast seen it, thou shalt be gathered unto thy peoples, as Aaron thy brother was gathered, because ye rebelled against my word in the wilderness of Zin, in the strife of the congregation, as to hallowing me in the matter of the water before their eyes". The serious side of things is brought forward there as to Moses. What a solemn thing, those hasty words! But then, although God says that to Moses here, his departure does not take place here; that is impending, for there is much to be done yet. There is the appointment of Joshua; and then to think of those chapters, 28 and 29, marvellous chapters, and how they come in here! Think how privileged Moses was to give this instruction: "My offering, my bread for my offerings by fire of

sweet odour to me, shall ye take heed to present to me at their set time". And all the detail of the offerings of each set time is gone over in these two chapters. At the last encampment the people are prepared for this kind of thing, that God should have His full portion. If they are thinking of the inheritance, they are not thinking of it merely relative to themselves; but they were to learn how God should have His full portion, His offerings, His bread, His offerings by fire.

And so if we move on to chapter 31, we have the war to "Avenge the children of Israel upon the Midianites". And that is a thing we need to attend to; Midian must not become a snare any more. So we must go to war against the Midianites; every tribe represented, every local meeting, as we may say. We go to war with the Midianites -- these principles of seduction. And the war was successful; and one feature of it was, according to chapter 31: 49, that not one man was lacking. Twenty-four thousand died in the plague, but not one died in the war; so that once we face the matter, there is salvation. But you will notice that in this war, and what follows it, how much purification is stressed in chapter 31, verses 19 - 24! How thoroughly they were to purify themselves, as well as the booty they had taken! "The gold, and the silver, and the copper, the iron, the tin, the lead, everything that passeth through the fire, ye shall make it go through the fire, and it shall be clean; only it shall be purified with the water of separation;" Even after going through the fire, it was all to go through the water: "And everything that cannot pass through the fire shall ye make go through the water. And ye shall wash your garments on the seventh day, and ye shall be clean; and afterwards ye may come into the camp". What a thorough going matter this was! Not only warfare, but this utterly thorough and complete purification!

That brings us on to chapter 33 where we read about these journeys. Here we have a wonderful view of the wilderness in retrospect. "And Moses wrote their goings out according to their journeys by the commandment of Jehovah; and these are their journeys according to their goings out". They are not called wanderings here. We might well say that the truth of the brazen serpent was always true, and why did not they acknowledge it just after they left Egypt? But you see, the wilderness lessons had to be learnt experimentally, and while the prolonged time in the wilderness was because of sin in the flesh working in the people -- which, of course, you cannot excuse -- yet from the Divine side God was over it all. Those in whom He was working were getting the good of it -- Caleb and Joshua were getting the good of it -- the new generation, if we may say so, was getting the gain of it. God did not cease to order their movements, they were journeys, it says, "by the commandment of Jehovah". In Nehemiah 9, the confessional chapter that was referred to this afternoon, it says in verse 19 that "The pillar of cloud departed not from them by day ... neither the pillar of fire by night". The faithfulness of God is wonderful. If God had been impatient He would have left them -- for they could have done the journey in only eleven days. But think of the patience of God operating so that those who were His elect might truly learn all the lessons experimentally -- during 40 years. Many died by the way, many fell out, but there were those who got the gain; we would like to be amongst those who get the gain, and to come to this last encampment. And so at the end of this record of the journey it says "and they encamped by the Jordan", verse 49. It again gives us the previous description, they "encamped in the plains of Moab by the Jordan of Jericho" verse 48. But then it goes on to give a further description and says "they encamped by the Jordan,

from Beth-jeshimoth unto Abel-Shittim, in the plains of Moab". Now the note indicates that Abel-Shittim means the plain of acacias. And by the time we come to this chapter, the people are viewed as having really reached that experimentally, the plain of acacias; they were in keeping with the acacia wood of which the tabernacle was made, and of which the ark was made. God's end had been reached so far as the wilderness was concerned. That is what I understand this to mean; that there was nothing in evidence but the acacia wood.

Now, I believe that is what Paul has in mind in the last chapter of 2 Corinthians. He wants to bring the Corinthians to the last encampment of the wilderness; they have gone round that mountain long enough, and so he says "Examine your own selves if ye be in the faith; Prove your own selves: do ye not recognise yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?" Now, dear brethren, do we recognise ourselves? May I ask, what you think about yourself? You say, well, I come from a good family, brought up in the meeting; I have a good education, I have got a good deal of ability. Well, it may take us a long time to recognise the kind of man we really are. What we may be boasting in does not count with God; He has overruled those things that we may have in His mercy and goodness; He has overruled your forbears and so on, but nothing we derive naturally from that source has any part in His system. The only ground for our having any part in His system is that Jesus Christ is in us. Have we discovered that yet? You see, if you have discovered that Jesus Christ is in you really, and therefore recognised yourself, you will say, 'Well, I cannot tolerate anything else. Everything except Jesus Christ in me springs from the flesh which has come under divine condemnation at the cross; and I cannot recognise that as myself, I must disown it, and not boast in it any more. I disown it'. So that at

this last encampment we really come to a knowledge of ourselves according to God, to recognise ourselves as we really are according to God, that Jesus Christ is in us, and that is the only thing that matters. And it is because Jesus Christ is in us that we are part of this great system, like boards of the tabernacle. You could not have anything but acacia wood. You can see that if you bring anything else into the matter, you are spoiling your availability as a board of the tabernacle; the board of the tabernacle is just acacia wood and nothing else. And that is me. In Romans 7 Paul says it is not I that do it; he would disown the other man completely. It is the sin that dwells in him. But Paul is very specific in Corinthians, because he had taught the word of God there with a view to setting them together tabernacle-wise, as we may say; and he wanted it to be a practical reality. So he ends with this challenge, which if answered to, would bring us I believe, to the last encampment, "Do ye not recognise yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?" Mr. Stoney used to deprecate the idea even of being a good Christian man as the world speaks; you see, it attaches things to myself. To attach Christianity to myself to make anything of myself is one of the worst things. The point is Jesus Christ is in me. And if He is in me, and I rightly realise that, and recognise myself in that way, I cannot tolerate anything else. That is how we arrive I think at the plain of acacias. And he was wanting the Corinthians to arrive there, at this last encampment. He did not mind what they thought of him as long as they arrived there. He would rejoice even if he was thought a reprobate, he says "For we rejoice when we may be weak and ye may be powerful", 2 Corinthians 13:9. He did not mind what happened as long as the saints arrived at this last encampment. And of course if they arrived at that, there would be no need for him to use severity. The authority he had been given was for building up, not

for overthrowing; and if they arrived at the last encampment all that would be needed would be building up. So he says "For the rest, brethren, Rejoice". These are the things that would mark the last encampment. Earlier he says, "But this also we pray for you, your perfecting", verse 9. And I think he has in mind this point that I am seeking to bring before us, this arriving at the last encampment; "your perfecting", from the standpoint of getting the gain of the wilderness and its lessons -- "your perfecting". And as I say, what characterises the position is joy, "Rejoice" he says, "be perfected; be encouraged; be of one mind; be at peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you. Salute one another with a holy kiss. All the saints salute you". And then these three great things I have referred to already that have come out earlier in Numbers, "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ", the living and heavenly priest, "and the love of God", told out at the cross, but resident now in Christ Jesus our Lord; "and the communion of the Holy Spirit, be with you all". What marks the last encampment is that those things are enjoyed without hindrance. We may touch them and come into them as they did typically in chapters 17, 20 and 21; but they had still got more to do, they had got to overthrow Sihon and Og, and they had got to face the Midianitish snare. But now the point is that all those things being faced, then these three things can be enjoyed without any hindrance; "the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit, be with you all". Well, you are in a wonderful position now. Just ready for the land, ready for the last trumpet, ready for Deuteronomy.

At this same place, Moses began to unfold that feeling discourse called "Deuteronomy" -- the words of one who loved the people. Three times over he says, "Jehovah was angry with me on your account".

He does not in that book view his not going into the land as the penalty on himself -- that is another side of it -- but he views it, typically, as the vicarious sufferings of Christ, Jehovah was angry with me on your account. That should touch all our hearts, beloved brethren, Jehovah being wroth, as we may say, speaking reverently, with Christ, not only to deliver us from Egypt, but because of all our rebellions in the wilderness. Jesus had to take them all up vicariously at the cross, the whole history of things was entered into there, prospectively. How it would humble us and touch our hearts as we think of the manifestations of the flesh in the various forms in the wilderness, and to think that Jehovah in that sense, has been wroth with Christ on our account. We can understand, in delivering us from Egypt, that He should have to bear the wrath; but why should He have had to bear wrath because of our naughtiness in the wilderness? That should touch our hearts very much. And it is at this last encampment that Moses can speak like that to the people. While we are still going on in naughty ways, we would not have any appreciation of that. You see, you come to a point at the end of 2 Corinthians in which, if they answered to what the apostle exhorted them, they would come to a greater appreciation of the vicarious sufferings of Christ because of the rebellion and state of things at Corinth. And so, if we think of church history, well, what a load has been His to bear! We are called upon to bear it in our spirits; to bear the iniquity of the priesthood and of the sanctuary, to carry it in our spirits. But Jesus bore it vicariously. But in Deuteronomy, you see, we could only take that in at the last encampment. The words of one who loved the people, Moses, laying bare his heart, not just communicating commands direct from God, but going over the ground as to what he had commanded. He had commanded what God commanded, but he speaks over and over

again of how he had commanded, and what he had said to them, with all the feelings of one who loved them, and had suffered on their account. Well, what a wealthy place the last encampment is! How it would bring us into line with Christ, and His own feelings about everything! Fitting us, in that way, for the land; so that even before we go over, we are truly a people for a possession, delightful to God. Well, may the Lord help us as to these few words, encouraging us to face the exercises of the wilderness, having in mind arriving at this last encampment, and dealing with all that has to be dealt with there, so as to be ready for all the privileges that attach to the last encampment. And if we are ready for those, there will be nothing to hinder us in spirit entering the land, as we have opportunity, in the times of privilege. And, furthermore, we shall be ready for that assembling shout of the One who says "Behold I come quickly". May the Lord grant it, for His name's sake!