Matthew 16:13 - 18; 1 Corinthians 3:9 - 11; Luke 6:43-49.

G.R.C. The sixteenth of Matthew brings forward the foundations on which the Lord Jesus Himself builds. The third of Corinthians gives us the foundation upon which the workman builds. Paul speaks of our being God's fellow workmen. The sixth of Luke speaks of the foundations on which we individually build in our lives and our minds, in our walk, relative to our own formation. I thought it might help to look at foundations in these three aspects. It may be that we shall dwell in a special way on the last.

In the first passage the Lord Jesus says "On this rock I will build my assembly". God Himself is spoken of in a number of scriptures as the Rock.

Christ is spoken of as the Rock, "They drank of a spiritual rock that followed them". So that the rock in any case indicates a Divine Person -- as here it refers to Christ, the Son of the living God. While those expressions refer to Him in manhood, they could not be attached to a mere man; no mere man could carry the honour and the offices that belong to Christ. He must be a Man, but He must also be, as Paul says, "over all God blessed for ever". And so with "The Son of the living God": therefore the Lord Jesus says, "On this rock I will build". He Himself is the Rock. In passing, I might say that in the Bible recently published (The New English Bible) there is a very grave error; It says "thou art Peter the rock, and on this rock I will build my church". Those two words, thou art Peter 'the rock' are not in the original --

they have no right to be there at all -- serious untruth.

Rem. When you are going to build you need stability, a sure foundation.

G.R.C. You do, "sure foundation": it says in Isaiah 29:16, "Behold, I lay for foundation in Zion a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation".

Rem. I am glad you spoke about that Bible, because it is used a lot in schools, and it is good for the children to take note of what you said.

G.R.C. There are other things that might be raised in connection with it, but that in itself is a very grave error. The so-called Protestant to put that in which, so far as I know, not even the Roman Catholics would put it in.

Ques. Would you say that the title of "the Christ" is more than Man?

G.R.C. Well, the title "the Christ" means 'the Anointed'; it is the highest title in the universe, the highest office in the universe -- more than any angelic office. He has a Name which is above every principality, and authority and power and every name named. He is anointed as Head over all things in heaven and earth; and it covers the great offices of Prophet, Priest and King. We may think, to begin with, of the great office of prophets of old, but in the case of the Lord Jesus, He has brought forth the whole mind of God -- His very Name, "the Word" signifies that. Then He is the Priest. But what takes priority, in a way, is His Kingship; King of righteousness, King of peace, and Priest of the most high God -- that is the first intimation of the combined offices of King and Priest in the Old Testament. The Old Testament only takes account of earth; but in the New Testament, we know, He is Head of all things in heaven and earth. No mere man could fill that office. And so Paul speaks to Israel of Him in Romans 9:5, "and of whom, as according to flesh,

is the Christ, who is over all, God blessed for ever". That is what leads the church to worship Him. The church has the nearest place to Him, and she appreciates His person, more than any other company could in the whole universe. She is the "fulness of him who fills all in all" -- and no mere man could fill all in all.

Ques. Could you say, please, why the setting here is "the Son of man"?

G.R.C. It is the line to which the Spirit often refers -- the Lord Jesus in His days of humiliation here; and all kinds of injurious things said against Him would be forgiven, as the "Son of Man". He came not to be ministered to -- He Whom we see in Daniel, "thousands upon thousands" ministering to Him, and "ten thousands time ten thousands". But, coming here, He says: "the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many". Coming on that wonderful mission, to save sinners, the most terrible statement against Himself could be forgiven, but no such statement against the Holy Spirit can be forgiven. That is a remarkable thing; this is one of the most powerful words stated in Scripture as to the Personality and Deity of the Holy Spirit.

Rem. We were seeing in the 16th of Matthew that the Christ is the Builder. I was thinking of 1 Peter 2, where it says: "To whom coming, a living stone, cast away indeed as worthless by men, but with God chosen, precious, yourselves also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God by Jesus Christ". Would that refer to the building of the Christ at the present time?

G.R.C. I think so. Of course, we can look at what has been built here in public testimony and what has been built in a more hidden way which will be fully manifested in the world to come. But I think

there is a view in which the Son is the Builder both as to the house, which would link back with the structure that Solomon built, and also the Tabernacle; because Hebrews speaks of the Tabernacle and calls it the house -- "whose house are we", it says, "if indeed we hold fast the boldness and the boast of hope firm to the end", Hebrews 3:6. There it says that Christ is the Builder, whichever aspect of the house we take.

But there is another important thing in what you say, and that is, we become living stones by apprehending Jesus as the Christ, the Son of the living God. It was that which made Peter a living stone. And one loves to see that our apprehension is greatly increasing today -- that the young ones may get an impression of the greatness of Christ. He is God over all, blessed for ever, but He holds all the great offices of the universe -- they are all held by one Man -- the Prophet, the Priest, the King, the Shepherd; and they are held by the Man Who alone could hold them and adorn them; and He becomes the one Man of our hearts as we apprehend that -- the Man whom God has chosen to fill every office -- the Christ -- that is the title the church delights in. It is the title used relative to the church: Christ, "mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth! I will put my Spirit upon him; he shall bring forth judgment to the nations", Isaiah 42:1.

Rem. We are the body of Christ; we are not said to be the body of the Lord, or Jesus, but the body of the Christ.

G.R.C. I think there are two aspects here, although the house side is the most prominent in this passage in Matthew. I know that underlying the house is "I will build my assembly" -- the house that Solomon built. There was there the implication of what was not yet brought out in ministry, that is the truth of the body -- linking on with the title of "the Christ"; and the house linking with the title "the

Son of the living God" -- what is for God here.

Rem. Peter himself had to do with the Father in arriving at this, did he not?

G.R.C. And I believe Paul's great exercise was to make us all living stones; he does not put it that way. He prays to the Father that He might strengthen us by His Spirit with might in the inner man, that the Christ might dwell -- not come there occasionally, but dwell -- in our hearts by faith. And where that is a living reality, a continuous thing, we become living stones, do we not?

Ques. Is it beautiful to notice that it is the Father -- that wonderful relationship -- that the heart of Christ delights to bring us into?

G.R.C. What does the Son of the living God delight to do in the assembly but to use it in the praise of His Father and His God? That is the aspect here; while the body underlies it, as the body underlies the house -- the body is the inner, the vital side -- Christ's body must be God's house. When He was here, His own body was the temple of God. So that the saints, being His body, must be God's house; it is where God would delight to dwell, everything there speaking to Him of Christ. That would be the main point of the passage in thinking of His Father and His God and His praises.

H.S.E. Can the truth of the house of God be worked out without us being vitally in the body?

G.R.C. I don't think it can. I think the truth of the body underlies the house.

Rem. Love, really, must be the seat of intelligence; you connect love with the body, do you not? and understanding with the truth of the house of God?

G.R.C. I think so.

Rem. It is a very practical matter. One was thinking of the Apostles praying day by day to God; they recognised Him as Jehovah, the God of the Old

Testament. But now they are in the presence of His Son here in Manhood. It is really the fruit of communion with His Father that Peter gets enlightened. I am thinking of the practical bearing of it upon ourselves; we don't get it exactly by reading Scripture -- though we need Scripture to guide us -- but we get the apprehension and appreciation of Christ really getting into the presence of the Father, about Him, do we not?

G.R.C. That is why I was quoting Paul's prayer; he was bowing his knees to the Father, that He would strengthen us with might by His Spirit, that Christ might be unrivalled in our affection every day, and that everything might flow out of the fact of His dwelling in our hearts. Then we shall not only be living and operative members of His body, but we shall be living stones in the house for God's praise.

Rem. There is a particular grandeur in the verses in Ephesians 3; Paul says, he bows his knees to the Father that He would grant the saints to be strengthened by His Spirit in the inner man. There is a tremendous combination of Divine power and love to bring us into the good of this.

G.R.C. This shows how Peter became a living stone; "Thou art Peter" -- a stone, a living stone. The Lord names him because he arrives here by the Father's grace at this great truth -- the apprehension of Christ -- that here before him was the Christ, the Son of the living God. He names Jesus, and Jesus names him; He says, you are a stone; and on this rock, that is the truth of Christ's Person, and particularly the truth of His Person as apprehended in the souls of the saints -- He says, "on this rock I will build my assembly, and the gates of hades shall not prevail against it". This is an emotional scene, the scene of deep emotion. The italics show that; the Lord is moved; Peter was a worshipper: "Thou art the Christ". Peter, in his thoughts, was really prostrated before the Lord. And that is how we be

come living stones; we so apprehend the glories of the Person of Christ that we become worshippers of Christ. And then the Lord is moved, speaking reverently; and you get the emphatic pronoun again, "thou art Peter". The material coming to light, the living stone.

Rem. After the Lord was questioned in the temple building, He Himself asks one question; He says, the Christ, whose son is He? and they were not able to answer it; they were not material for the house, were they?

G.R.C. There is no living stone among mere professors to answer that question.

Ques. Is there any connection with Genesis 2? It says there that Jehovah Elohim built the rib, that he had taken from the man, into the woman. Is that what God had in mind at that point?

G.R.C. Yes; it used to be said that man was the first builder -- Cain built a city. But God was the first Builder, and He built the woman, and what the woman represents in type. Christ secures His helpmate, and God secures His city and His house. The building up of the body us what Eve represents -- she was taken out of the man. So that God is the first Builder; and the two lines go on together. There is still substance coming out of Christ in the way of spiritual impressions and spiritual ministry which is building the woman -- that is still going on -- and it is all from the Man. That is the body side of it; and the body builds itself up in love; building is a body thought, it is an organic idea. But then as to the public side, the Godward side of praise and our fitting in together in praise and testimony in God's house, the other figure is used, the Building, that is the putting of stones together. It says "in whom", that is Jesus Christ our Lord, "ye are also built together for a habitation of God in the Spirit". The building is going on.

L.J.J.W. Will you say a little more on the great matter of the house, particularly as to Christ being addressed "the Son of the living God"?

G.R.C. The house of God in Timothy is called "the assembly of the living God"; it is the link with this scripture. The Lord says "I will build my assembly", it is His too. It is His in a peculiar way, but it is also the assembly of the living God. And it is in that vessel that the praise of the living God is secured. Would you say more about it?

L.J.J.W. It does seem that the Lord's sonship is vital to this thought of the house.

G.R.C. It does; and so it says in Romans 9, "And it shall be, in the place where it was said to them, Ye are not my people, there shall they be called sons of the living God". You have here, "the Son of the living God"; but Romans shows you how "sons of the living God" is brought to pass. You can see how Paul and Peter are linked together, though they use different expressions: "distinctions of gifts but the same Spirit", 1 Corinthians 12:4. This should dismiss the idea that there is only one kind of ministry. All the ministry is unified, if it is of God; but Peter, Paul and John do not borrow one another's expressions.

G.H. Would you say that this brings out the greatness of the Person, the Builder, and meetness of the material for the building?

G.R.C. It does. It emphasises the greatness of the Person; but how wonderful it is, how the Lord is affected to see a living stone coming to light! "thou art Peter" -- what a joy to His heart! May there be joy to His heart today, that all of us become more living!

P.R. Do you think it all comes to a climax in the 21st of Revelation: "Come here, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife ... and shewed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of the heaven from God, having the glory of God".

G.R.C. I think that is just the thing, the climax is there in Revelation 21; the building is complete, the woman is builded -- because she is called the bride, the Lamb's wife -- and that same vessel is the city, and the early part of that chapter is the tabernacle.

P.R. You also get the twelve foundations.

G.R.C. Yes, you have the twelve foundations, and the names on them are the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Rem. That speaks of the stability of the building, it is built on the Rock.

G.R.C. It does. So the gates of hell cannot prevail against it. In our building of our own affairs, in Luke 6 it is the same principle; we have got to dig deep and get down to the rock, and the rock is Christ: 'On Christ, the solid Rock I stand'. The Rock referred to there is the initial thing in the gospel, and that is perfectly true. But that is really a stand all the time -- Christ, the solid Rock; let us dig deep and get down to it, get down to Christ, get past ourselves, and even past the opinion of men and everything else. This is to be done in our own private building, otherwise the gates of hades will prevail against our private building, as we might say.

Ques. When you say privately, do you mean individually?

G.R.C. Yes; the Lord said: "Everyone that comes to me, and hears my words and does them". That is the main point of this reading, although we spent a lot of time on the first part. He said: "Every one that comes to me, and hears my words and does them, I will shew you to whom he is like", Luke 6:47. We have heard a lot of ministry, but whether we have ever carried it out is another matter. I mean ministry that comes from the Lord. There are things that we have heard, as we know, that had not come from the Lord.

W.J.D. Have we got to bear in mind that responsibility and sovereignty go together? In Matthew 16

we get the sovereignty of the work of God; and then there is the responsible side of digging deep, that we might find our foundation in Christ Himself?

G.R.C. Yes; because, you see, each one of us is building all our life time -- doing something. Is what we are doing of any value? And from the point of view of the Lord's words, it depends on the foundations; what foundation are we building on?

W.J.D. Is that not where we have been tested recently?

G.R.C. Well, the Lord said there: "Every one that comes to me". That is the first thing. That is to say, those who build on the wrong foundation do not come to Him; He does not use that word about them -- "come to me". They never come to Him; and one thing we have had to learn is to 'Come to Jesus characteristically' -- not simply what we do in the night we are converted; but something we continue to do several times a day, at least -- we come to Jesus, the glorified Man, in the attitude of our souls. We constantly resort to the holy of holies where Jesus is; because we cannot come to Him except as the glorified Jesus. And we should be continually coming to Him in that scene of glory; as the Father says: "This is my beloved Son, hear him". If you want to get light from God, go to the holiest; conditions of the holiest should be here today; it is open to us individually too.

W.J.D. And so he said to Peter, in our scripture, "And I also", an additional word.

G.R.C. That was a word for the moment.

How do we discern His word?

G.R.C. Well, I would say, in the presence of God and in Christ's own presence. He says: "Every one that comes to me, and hears my words" -- not hearing the Scriptures read away from Christ in your soul. The Scriptures have their full place; but we may not come to Christ, as He says: "Ye search the scripture,

for ye think that in them ye have life eternal ... but ye will not come to me that ye might have life", John 5:39. So it is as coming to Him we get the word for the moment. On the mount of transfiguration the Father's voice was heard, "This is my beloved Son, hear him". It is Christ glorified; and it all depends on the surroundings and atmosphere in which we read the Scriptures. Are we in the atmosphere of the holiest, have we come to Jesus in our reading of them, and we in His presence? And do we hear His living voice in what He would convey in the Scripture at that moment?

P.W. I was wondering about the necessity of discernment, because we have had qualms about what we have heard.

G.R.C. That is because we have not learnt the habit of going into the holiest. I have not learnt it very much yet; some of us have been converted forty years and hardly know what the holiest is. We can read a lot of ministry, but it is in that atmosphere of glory that the Father says, "Hear him". You can read the scriptures by themselves, like the scribes and Pharisees. But the word to Moses is "there will I meet with thee, and will speak with thee from above the mercy-seat", Exodus 25:22. The holy of holies gives the Lord the opportunity to speak to us in that atmosphere and in that scene of glory. And you see, there is the Urim and the Thummim there; and if you want to get the gain of the Urim and the Thummim, you have to be where your name is -- your name is on the breast-plate. We all have a right to be on Jesus' breast, because our name is on the breast-plate. And if we go where our name is, on the breast of Jesus, we shall see the Urim -- light on every situation.

Ques. Would that have a bearing on the tenth chapter?

G.R.C. Yes, something like that. There are many things exercising our minds at the moment, but the

Urim is available, but you have to be on the breast of Jesus to see it.

Ques. If we allow the word of the Lord to reach us in our own experience, we reach Christ. Do you think it would work that way?

G.R.C. I think we need to come to Christ to get the word. I can see what you mean, as to the initial stage; the word reaches our conscience and our heart, and we come to Jesus. So that initially it is the word of God, living and powerful and sharper than two edged sword; that brings us to Jesus. But then, in the habit of our souls we keep on coming.

He says to the Jews, "Ye will not come to me that ye might have life". They might be searching the Scriptures without Jesus; how much we have done that! Our minds working without Him. "He that comes to me shall never hunger", John 6:35. We are all feeling the need of food; you will never get food unless you come to Jesus; you won't get food by coming to the scriptures only.

M.D.MacIn. Would you say that, practically speaking, we should come to Jesus before we start reading our Bibles?

G.R.C. I wish I knew the working of it better myself. I like help from others as to the way this works. I don't know what to say as to a specific rule; but I believe we want to make a prime point of coming to Jesus -- even if we have not got time to read the scripture much. Some people may be so busy all day and have no time to read the scriptures, but don't let us fail to come to Jesus, with our ears open as to what He may have to say. The scriptures are of course very important; but if we come consciously into His presence, how wonderful they would become to us!

H.S.E. Peter got this definite impression in the midst of all the error that is typified in verse 14 (Matthew 16) by cultivating the presence of Jesus; he

arrived at it that way, would you say? There were at least four erroneous opinions in that verse, but Peter arrives at the right result.

Ques. Does the Father reveal to such persons to come to Jesus in the way you are speaking of?

G.R.C. Yes, and He deals with them before they come, because Jesus said: "No one can come to me except the Father who has sent me draw him", John 6:44. The Father's activities are very wonderful in that way. I think what our brother says bears on the present time; there are many opinions about different things. We can go to the scriptures: six different people can read six different things from the same scriptures; and where are you then? But if you come to Jesus, He will have you listen in the holiest of all -- "hear him" -- and the Urim will then indicate perfect light; the word is plural, meaning perfect lights. It is the bringing of the light of God, which is shining in its completeness, to bear on a particular point and problem. So in connection with the Urim, it is said, as to Joshua, (in Numbers 27:21) that at the judgment of the Urim the children of Israel, even the whole assembly, should go out and come in. Whatever they did, they were to get the judgment of the Urim. And the Urim is available for us today; and the way we shall see it clearly (I wish I knew more about it) is by going into that blessed place and leaning on the breast of Jesus; the names of all the saints are there.

H.S.E. So that when this building was taking shape in a practical way, as in Romans 16 for example, Epaenetus is spoken of as the first fruits of Asia for Christ.

G.R.C. What do you make of that?

H.S.E. Well, what you have been saying earlier about Christ -- "Thou art the Son of the living God". If the development in a concrete way of these matters -- and I take it that the development of the body in a

visible sense in Asia was to take place -- it was because that man, who was a pioneer in one sense, was the first fruits of Asia for Christ.

G.R.C. Very good.

Ques. Is it important that the two disciples who wanted to know the Lord Jesus in the first chapter in John's gospel abode with Him that day?

G.R.C. Well, it is; that is good.

Ques. Is there encouragement in the word here: "Every one that comes to me"? It is not a certain individual, is it? It is an encouragement to every one of us.

G.R.C. Exactly; I think this is one very great result from the exercises we passed through, that we become comers to Jesus every day and to hear His word -- the living word He had for the moment; the judgment of the Urim on every question, whether it is my own affairs in relation to the testimony, or more especially God's affairs. We get direction how to go out and how to come in. And so the Lord says: "Every one that comes to me and hears my word and does them". That is the point, we must do His words.

Ques. Would Mary be a great example of what you are saying; she having sat down at the feet of Jesus was listening to His word.

G.R.C. That is right; and then she did it. In John 12 she carried out what was most precious. But you see, we have gone through an upheaval, have we not? And much of what we have built up in our minds and our thoughts has collapsed around us. Because it was built on sand.

W.J.D. It is a question of what we build, is it not? You had that in mind?

G.R.C. Yes; that comes in Corinthians. But still, it also comes in this scripture in Luke; because each one of us is building something of some kind -- we are building some structure. In our mind and in our

outlook we have got a structure. I would like to make sure that the structure I am building up is true; but if I go into the holiest I can test it. And the atmosphere of the holiest, if things were right with me, would be enhanced when we are together. But if all I did and all I built in my mind and in what I do and undertake are based on the words of Jesus nothing of it would ever collapse; it would stand every strain.

Rem. We get the invitation from the Lord Himself, "Come unto me"; and then when we are in His presence, we are going to learn from Him, are we not?

G.R.C. One of the things that hinder us is the 'burden' -- "all ye who labour and are burdened". So the first thing in coming to Jesus is to get free from your burdens -- whatever they are. You may think, whatever may happen next? Well, whether individually or collectively, locally or universally, if you are so burdened, the first thing to do is to get free of these burdens -- you are to be quiet to hear the voice of the Lord. So the Lord says, "Come to me all ye who labour and are burdened and I will give you rest" -- whatever the burden is. That is the very first thing to do; you get into the presence of Jesus and you find rest; because you are in the presence of the One Who knew everything. Then we shall be free to hear what He has got to say in our particular case.

Rem. In a particular case here, there is the coming, there is the hearing and there is the doing. That is a very practical exercise of the soul, is it not?

G.R.C. Well, quite so, very practical. And we would like, in our own pathways, to build something that will go through.

W.J.D. It is building upon the rock, is it not?

G.R.C. The Lord shews here that it is not a superficial matter; if you are going to hear His words and then to carry them out, you have got to dig deep. There is everything in myself that would militate

against my carrying out the words of Jesus. There is the power of Satan, and in one sense everything is against my doing the words of Jesus; but you have got to dig deep and get down to the Rock -- Christ.

Now prior to that, in Luke 6, the Lord speaks of the trees. These and the building are two similes that are often put together in Scripture; that is, the saints are regarded as plants with roots, and they are regarded as a building with a foundation. And so Colossians puts the two together. "Rooted and built up in Him"; our roots are in Christ Jesus and our foundation is in Him; and we are built up in Him.

Rem. On the line of Luke 6, we shall not build again that which we have destroyed. There have been cases of that, where people have swung over; that in itself is serious enough -- but they have retracted and swung over.

G.R.C. It is serious; and that kind of thing happens in an endeavour to escape suffering. But the Lord says: "He that loves his life shall lose it", John 12:25. There is a dreadful penalty to seeing what is right and hearing something of the Lord's words and failing to do them, because of some ulterior motive or fear or position or place. So after referring to the assembly in Matthew 16, it says: "From that time Jesus began to shew his disciples that he must go away to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders". If we are to have these immense privileges -- greatest ever given to the creature -- we must be prepared to suffer. Really, it is only in suffering that these things are wrought out in their reality and blessedness -- we have discovered that, have we not?

Rem. That may be involved in the expression, digging deep.

G.R.C. And the digging deep is the suffering in connection with the getting rid of our old man -- digging right through and getting to the Rock; because, through grace, if we are true believers, Jesus

Christ is in every one of us. Paul says: "For other foundation can no man lay, besides that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ". That refers to the foundation laid down in the souls of believers. And there again, Jesus is still the foundation; but it is Jesus Christ laid in the soul of the believer. So at the end of the second epistle of the Corinthians, Paul says: "Examine your own selves if ye be in the faith; prove your own selves; do ye not recognise yourselves that Jesus Christ is in you, unless indeed ye be reprobates". That is to say, if Jesus Christ is not in each of us here foundationally, we are not Christians. You cannot lay down any other foundation -- but see how you build on it. But from the standpoint of digging deep, I wonder whether it means that you dig deep through all that you are, as it were, as after the flesh -- all calculations of the flesh, reasonings of the flesh, everything that comes from that source, and get down to the foundation that has been laid deep down in your soul, that is Jesus Christ. Is that so?

Rem. That is very helpful indeed.

G.R.C. Now if we come to the thought of workmen, for a moment, in the third of Corinthians, that is not building our own structure like Luke 6; but as workmen seeking to serve God among His people and secure material for the house through the gospel. There we have got to see how we build as true workmen. If we have not come to a judgment of our own selves, our old man, that wretched old man, we shall build something not suitable at all for the building. That particularly applies to our local company; it applies to all, of course, but especially to what is local. Paul says: "We are God's fellow-workmen; Ye are God's husbandry, God's building". But he is speaking especially of their company, because he has been there and he has laid the foundation. Apollos had been there and had watered it; but watering is to do with plants. Apollos watered, that

is one side of the matter, meaning us individually, then as built together -- Paul alone laid the foundation and others built on it. And if we are going to be successful workmen according to 1 Corinthians 3, we need to be building on right lines according to Luke 6 individually. Because the worst man we could bring in to build on is ourselves. He said "neither the planter is anything, nor the waterer, but God the giver of the increase".

P.W. I was wondering relative to our faith, whether that is a requisite for the power of God to those to be set at liberty. Is there with us the necessary faith to go forward with God in the building?

G.R.C. I am sure there is to be faith with us. Because the planter is nothing, nor the waterer, but it is God who gives the increase. And then he says "Who is Apollos, and who Paul? Ministering servants, through whom ye have believed, and as the Lord has given to each". It is on the line of faith you get things. No one has anything to do, or to give that is profitable, unless he has received from the Lord on the principle of faith; and he has faith as to the result. But perhaps you have something more as to faith?

P.W. Well, I was thinking that we might be often over-occupied with activity, but the power of God is there -- to do far exceeding above what we ask or think.

G.R.C. That is an exercising point, because in Romans 12 it says: "As God has dealt to each a measure of faith". And that is not just a justifying faith that led to our justification, but it is faith in action. But not many of us, perhaps none of us, has put faith properly into activity.

Ques. Would this be like 2 Chronicles 6:4 "Blessed be Jehovah the God of Israel, who spoke with his mouth to my father David, and hath with his hands fulfilled it"?

G.R.C. Yes, that is what God has done. But then

in the fulfilling of it, so far as the building of the house was concerned, there were many who were active in the work. I believe it would help to see that God had dealt to each one a measure of faith to be active in the work; and at the end of 1 Corinthians 15, we are enjoined by Paul to be always abounding in the work of the Lord; that included every brother and every sister in Corinth.

Ques. Do you think that we often get fainthearted when we approach the meeting, when we are so small in number?

G.R.C. I do, but the greatness of the Lord is the point, is it not? Peter's impression of Who He is; and then "where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them".

Ques. Is it important therefore, to realise that the appreciation of the greatness and perfection and all-sufficiency of Christ is the outcome of the revelation of the Father?

G.R.C. Yes, if it comes to us today, it would be through the Spirit, would it not? Diversity or distinctions of gifts but one Spirit; and we are given the capacity to act accordingly. God has dealt to each a measure of faith. He has set the members in the body as it has pleased Him; and we would like to see more true activity of every form. We all feel the need of shepherds at this time. Rachel was a shepherdess; so sisters can come into that. And then we feel the need of evangelists; but we don't turn the tap on at 6.30 on Sunday evening, or certain fixed time when they go to preach in the open air. But we are to be channels of living water all day and every day "out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water". That is the kind of evangelist.

Rem. That means energy sustained, all along.

Rem. I was wondering why you stressed Jesus in relation to the testimonial position and Christ in relation to the first scripture.

G.R.C. That is how it seems to stand, does it not? The testimonial position in view in Corinthians; Jesus Christ is the character of the man that we should display -- His character; is that right? You see, the tabernacle throughout spoke of Jesus Christ -- no other man -- every time of the tabernacle -- shittim wood and other things. Some refer to Him personally; but in character, every part of the tabernacle represented Jesus Christ.

Rem. I suppose the foundation of the tabernacle really was shittim wood. There are the sockets of silver for the boards, but the inside material is the shittim wood.

G.R.C. And I think that is what Paul had in mind, because the house of God in Corinth is viewed as the tabernacle of testimony.

Rem. I wonder whether the difference between the stones that Peter speaks of in his building and the stones in the building in the 21st of Revelation, is that the stones in Peter are for endurance and permanency, but the stones in Revelation are for glory; is that right?

G.R.C. Yes, that is right. It is wonderful that foundations should be so well made. You don't usually put precious stones in the foundation, do you?

Rem. They are all exposed. Foundations of a house are all covered up, but in God's house they are all exposed, so that the glory of them all would be seen and the light to shine through them.

Rem. In verse 10 of 1 Corinthians 3, it says, "But let each see how he builds" -- 'how' is stressed, is it? Is it the sense of fitting in with others?

G.R.C. I think that. You mean fitting together in the building itself. The building is the public side. It is not the members of the body, that is the secret side. But the building is the public side that men can take account of, where the saints are walking as fitted together; and if they are not fitted together in

their praises and so on, there is not adequate testimony for God. The public testimony is in mind in connection with the house. These brotherly relations are very delicate. We need to be very careful; we can be so clumsy in trying to remove the mote from our brother's eye.

Rem. Is not the great matter for us is to understand what was here for God in Jesus Christ? We delight to speak of this as Himself morally in the foundation in that sense. But the name Jesus Christ is the historical name, the name of testimony, is it not? We are not here for our own testimony; but we are here for the testimony of the Man Who glorified God so perfectly.

G.R.C. It is the Man who was here and now is glorified, Jesus Christ. John speaks of the testimony of Jesus.