Exodus 27:1, 2, 9, 10, 16 - 19; Matthew 14:27 - 31; Hebrews 13:10 - 16
G.R.C. I have suggested these scriptures as feeling the need to be prepared to stand alone with one's link with the Lord. I do not mean by that to isolate oneself from others, but the need to be sure in our souls where we individually stand as to the truth and the path we tread; so that we are not dependent on human aid, though very thankful for it. But one feels the need of intimate personal relations with the Lord as having an understanding with Him and experience with Him, so that we individually know where we stand, and that we may be able to say like Luther in his day -- though the circumstances are different in connection with the truth at issue -- "Here I stand, I can do no other". He was not looking round at that moment for human support. It was what he had arrived at with the Lord and a stand from which he could not move because he was there with the Lord. I believe it is needful in our day, one feels it for oneself, to arrive at that kind of point in soul-history because there is a good deal of doubt and confusion around. Surely the Lord would help each one of us to have our feet firmly planted so that we can say, 'Here I stand, whatever others may do; here I stand, I can do no other'. In principle it is like the end of Romans 7 where the soul says as the outcome of his deep exercises, "I myself with the mind serve the law of God". Whatever others may do, "I myself with the mind serve the law of God". Of course he adds, "but with the flesh the law of sin" because he has now learnt that the flesh is not subject to the law of God; it cannot be. Nevertheless
there is the resolve as to himself, which would be his primary consideration, that 'here I stand'. If others are prepared to stand with me, good! we thank God for that; but the point is, here I stand, I can do no other. We do not want to make a false stand, of course, but one would desire for oneself to reach such an understanding with the Lord, assured in one's own soul of being on divine ground, and there you stand whatever others do; so that we are in peace of mind as to consequences though we shall need sustaining as to this. I have cited Luther, and while at that time he stood inflexibly for the truth of justification by faith, and the gain of the consequences of his stand remains for us, yet later in other matters he was not on divine ground. We are at the end of the dispensation and the Lord would have us on divine ground in every matter. The saints have gradually been recovered to the truth and the word of the Lord is, "Hold fast what thou hast, that no one take thy crown". He says, "I come quickly;" there is not a long time during which we are to hold fast. Personally I desire to be perfectly sure as to the ground I stand on in relation to the Lord.
R.W. Is it interesting the way in which Joshua rehearses to the children of Israel their history as about to leave them, and at the end he challenges them as to their future and whom they are going to serve; and then he says, "But as for me". Is that the thought in mind?
G.R.C. Yes, I think it is. "But as for me and my house". Whatever others did, he was committed. You get the same idea with Abraham in Genesis chapter 17 when God says, "As for me" and He says what He would be to Abraham, but then He says, "As for thee", and circumcision was the bond of the covenant. There was that clear understanding of the ground on which he was with God and God with him. That was a personal matter with Abraham;
with Joshua it was a wider thought. At the close of the dispensation the Lord would bring before us, as now, the need -- imperative as it is -- of our being with Him on all matters.
Ques. Paul exhorts Timothy in 2 Timothy 3, "But thou abide in those things which thou hast learned, and of which thou hast been fully persuaded". The word "thou" is emphatic. That is an assuring word from the apostle.
J.L.W. Is that why you brought in the altar?
G.R.C. Yes. I thought that in these three scriptures we have first the thought of pillars. Now a pillar can stand by itself. It does not need propping up, otherwise it would not be a pillar, it would not serve its purpose. A pillar can stand by itself and can support other things, and so the pillars round the court were supporting the hangings, the five cubits of fine linen round the court. The pillars refer to the saints in their public testimonial position; they can be seen by everybody, and there they stood, each pillar standing on its own base, not only needing no support itself in that sense but supporting, with the help of neighbouring pillars, the curtains of fine linen. I thought we might get some help there as to taking up our position as pillars in the public testimony. And then in Peter it is again a personal matter as to where he stood with the Lord, and I would apply that to our arriving at our foundation in the Lord Himself. All these thoughts are foundational. Peter learnt in that experience to come to the Lord as the Living Stone. God says in Isaiah chapter 28 -- and it is quoted in Peter's first epistle chapter 2 -- "Behold, I lay for foundation in Zion a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner-stone, a sure foundation". And Peter walking on the water to go to the Lord is like a saint seeking to be here for God in testimony where there is no foothold at all, no foundation or place of
standing, the waves and water being unstable and turbulent. Such are the days we live in. But in coming to the Lord he came to stability, the foundation that God had laid in Zion, "a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner-stone, a sure foundation".
In relation to the corner-stone we are apt to think of the Lord as the head of the corner, which is true, i.e., the top corner stone; but the initial thought in the corner stone is relative to the foundation; because it is from the foundational corner stone that all the measurements for the building are taken. In one sense everything depends on the foundation corner stone being properly laid. So that in coming to the Lord as the Living Stone we are on the sure foundation. It is true He will be the head stone -- that is the top corner stone when the building is completed -- and we want to reach that in faith now.
In the third scripture it is a question of going forth to Him, again a personal matter. Going "forth to Him without the camp". There is much in a human way to support you in the camp. All the systems that are built up by men are aimed at supporting and holding people in those systems. But we go forth to Him; we do not go forth to any man-made system; we go forth to Him as the Centre of a system which is apprehended in faith. It needs that personal going forth outside the camp to Christ as the One who is the Inaugurator and Sustainer of the faith system, if we are to really serve God acceptably.
L.J.J.W. Is it significant that these pillars are on bases of copper?
G.R.C. What do you think about that?
L.J.J.W. Copper is a tried metal. Does it suggest thus the purpose of God? If we are standing on the purpose of God as revealed in Christ we should be able to stand alone if necessary, should we not?
G.R.C. Well, quite so. It is this purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before the
ages of time. But it has come to us by way of the sufferings of Christ; so the bases of copper were of the same material as the altar.
R.W. Is it striking that Paul in writing to those at Galatia refers to James and Cephas and John who, he states, were conspicuous as being pillars and gave to him and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship? Do you think that where there is definiteness -- persons being prepared to stand -- others will be drawn to them?
G.R.C. Well, I think that. The pillars round the court would be conspicuous in the public eye as upholding the testimony of God -- they not only supported the curtains, but they were protective to the whole tabernacle system. They stood relative to the tabernacle as a whole, and that is what we are to do, each one of us, our prime responsibility in life is to stand true to the tabernacle system. I am speaking now spiritually; the tabernacle of witness or testimony being the assembly, and that vessel of testimony is one body, and one house or habitation of God in the Spirit. And therefore it is governed by one set of divine principles, the law of God. There are not two sets, there are not two bodies, there are not two or more houses of God; therefore it is one body, one house and one set of principles, and those principles were established by the sacrifice of Christ at the altar, and I take my stand there. I cannot therefore go on with anything contrary to the truth of the one body, the one house of God, and one law of God -- the law of His house. I have a base of copper to stand on, and that means that I am standing in conformity with the One who gave His life and His all that the one body might be established, that God's house might be set up -- the spiritual house -- and that the law of God might prevail to the ages of ages, in new heavens and a new earth wherein dwells righteousness.
E.J.B. Philadelphia is commended by the Lord as having kept His word, and the Lord's promise to the overcomer there is that He would make him a pillar in the temple of His God.
G.R.C. Well, that bears on what has just been said, that a pillar in that way becomes rightly in God's ways conspicuous and we can no doubt count on God to gather others on the same basis; but we have to begin with our own personal understanding with the Lord about this matter. What is my own understanding with the Lord? What am I here for? I would say that my main purpose in life, however little I may answer to it, is to stand for the truth, and in its application to our responsible pathway here it is a question of standing for the truth of the one body, the one house of God and the one law of God which governs that one body and that one house -- and not deviating, because the Lord Jesus did not deviate. He went right through to the Cross, the zeal of God's house devouring Him, and there offered Himself on the altar without spot to God to uphold God's glory for ever and to establish these things. Am I then going to give up what Christ gave His all to establish? Am I going to surrender the truth of the one body and the truth of the one house of God, and prevailing of the law of God? Am I going to surrender these at the last moment? "I come quickly" the Lord says. How can I surrender these things? but then I would like to be more settled in my soul with the Lord about them.
W.D. In respect of that, would you say that it is the mercy of God that has taken each one of us up in a distinctly personal way to be available to God in relation to these great collective thoughts? Ephesians links together individual mercy and sovereignty with the greatest collective thoughts of God.
G.R.C. Yes. In the purpose of God it was
personal choice on God's part, with each of us.
R.W. During the Absalom rebellion Hushai faithfully stood for David with the result that David came into his rights. The counsel of Ahithophel was overthrown by Hushai's faithfulness. Do you think that is how we stand in this day?
G.R.C. Well I think so, but our ability to stand is going to depend on this which, as I say, I feel the need of -- I do not know whether other brethren feel the need of it, but I feel the need of it myself -- of getting down to things with the Lord and knowing where I stand. The Scriptures are written to help us to know where to put our feet down. The first thing is, as pillars round the court, to put our feet down, each of us, on the bases of copper and say 'I am not going to leave that, let others do what they will'. I am no longer a pillar in God's mind if I have left the base of copper.
G.E.Y. Is it a matter of the heart? We learn a solemn lesson from Jehu, do we not? He wanted someone with him and took Jehonadab into his chariot and said, "Come with me, and see my zeal for Jehovah", but at the end when he had dealt with the enemies -- for God made use of him -- it is said that he took no heed to walk in the law of Jehovah, the God of Israel, with all his heart. With a full desire of heart to have God before us, and our settled relationship with the Lord Jesus Himself, so precious, everything falls into its perspective.
G.R.C. Well that is what it will do. Then, you see, the type of the pillars is a balancing type because they were linked together by connecting rods of silver. Now those two things, the silver and the copper determine our position in the public testimony. The copper determines where we stand, and the silver determines our links with others.
J.E.N. Do you think that perhaps we like the inside position, standing on the sockets of silver, but the
word may now be making us pay more attention to the pillars of the court standing on the bases of copper, involving suffering?
G.R.C. I think so; I think that copper does involve suffering; the altar suggests suffering. The Lord suffered to the fullest extent on the altar, and, in a world like this, in the confusion of Christendom, for us to stand faithfully on a base of copper is going to cause us suffering, and moreover you might have to stand alone.
L.J.J.W. Is it important that in chapter 27 the altar is described before the pillars?
G.R.C. Yes, quite. I thought it was essential to the subject that it should come in in that order.
L.J.J.W. Would the altar suggest that the rights of God have been fully maintained in Christ, and we stand on the basis of that?
G.R.C. That is it; and you see that it is on the basis of that that the one body is before Paul here. We have all been baptised in the power of one Spirit into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, and so on, because of what the Lord suffered at the altar, maintaining all God's rights; and the house of God is established on that. David said, "This is the house of Jehovah Elohim" where the angel stayed his hand and where the altar of burnt-offering was raised by David. So the house of God is raised up on the basis of what Jesus suffered. For Jesus suffered that there should be the one body here, and the one house of God here, and that Christians should be governed by the one law of God. What are we doing about it? That is what I would say. The Lord, I believe, would help us in personal history with Him to arrive at the only suited answer, so that we can affirm "Here I stand". There is no other stand open to me, and there could not be, as a lover of Christ. I cannot give up in my practical walk what He died to secure.
R.W. So is it acacia wood and five cubits to show
the great possibilities open to us in the position you allude to, relative to Christ? I was thinking the five cubits would come within the compass of man; the acacia wood would suggest the kind of manhood.
G.R.C. I think so. I think that is good. The number five signifies human weakness in a right sense, in the sense of full dependence on God. It is not like six which is more human independence but five is the correct number for man down here as holding the ground for God. The Lord Jesus filled out that position in perfection, even unto death; He was the dependent Man standing here for the rights of God even unto death.
Rein. The rights of God have been set out in mercy and His mercy endures for ever.
G.R.C. Well I suppose we are witnesses to that. If we in any way are recovered from our thoughts to the thoughts of God we are witnesses to His mercy. But God has secured His rights in mercy by way of the altar, and the supreme sacrifice of Christ. The blood of the sin-offering was poured out at the bottom of the altar, and the inwards of the sin-offering were burnt on the altar and the body was burned outside the camp. All those things are to bring home to us what Christ suffered. On the day of atonement the blood was taken within and sprinkled on the mercy-seat as the foundation on which God can righteously come out in mercy to men, the righteous foundation for Him to dwell amongst men.
J.L.W. And the fat of the peace-offering was burnt an the same altar. Hence it relates to our bond in fellowship together.
G.R.C. I think that is good. The fat and inwards of both the sin-offering and the peace-offering were burnt on the same altar, and our fellowship is in accord with the altar. Fellowship is linked with the altar. "We have an altar of which they have no right to eat who serve the tabernacle". That is the
presentation of the altar from the standpoint of fellowship. It is the place of eating. Every clean person can eat the peace-offering. So that the altar is the place of food. God speaks of His food in Numbers 28 and 29. He says, "My offering, my bread for my offerings". God's food was at the altar. Our food, in a spiritual sense, to strengthen us in service is at the altar. The manna, the food for every day in our daily responsible path, is another matter.
E.J.B. So the present exercises really have had the effect of making us stand individually for God.
G.R.C. Well, that is what I think they should do. I may not feel that I have arrived very well at it yet, but would not the Lord help us to arrive at that point, and then we can help other people? You say, 'Here I stand'. But we must do that for ourselves individually and not as thinking that we are sure to get others to stand with us -- because we might not. As taking that stand you must be prepared to stand alone, in principle as prepared indeed to go to the stake. Men have gone to the stake. I was hearing in Germany of a farmer near Wermelskirchen, a contemporary of Luther, who was more intelligent in the Scriptures, and in the truth generally, than Luther himself. He had one companion standing with him but not the protection of the princes; and they were both taken away to Cologne to be burned; It was the same kind of stand as Luther, but there was no one to intervene on their behalf. At the last minute this companion recanted -- he went back to the Roman church to save his life; but that did not deter this man. As he was burnt at the stake his hands were raised in prayer and praise to God and he died, a most triumphant martyr, in complete victory.
E.J.B. That is the work of God in a man's soul, is it not?
G.R.C. But then how does that come about? It is God's work, that is that side of it. But what really are my relations with God? Have I weighed these things over with God? But then a man that stands on this base of copper -- and is clear as to where he stands -- never isolates himself; it is not that you isolate yourself; you are not independent of other people. The connecting-rods of silver "fastened together" all the pillars, so that I am consciously linked in my affections with all the others who should be standing in like manner -- whether they are or not. I am linked with them all. I do not isolate myself as if I were the only one. So John, alone in Patmos, did not isolate himself in his thoughts; he says, "I John, your brother and fellow-partaker in the tribulation". He was conscious of all the connecting-rods of silver. The brotherhood involves this idea of the pillars. It is the saints as facing the world for God, and the self same sufferings being accomplished in their brotherhood which is in the world. While the priesthood is what we are as before God and as representing God to men, the brotherhood is what we are as standing in the suffering position for the testimony.
E.J.B. So the circumstances may isolate you, but the principles link you with all the saints. That is the point, is it not?
G.R.C. That is it. In your own mind and affections you are linked with all.
Ques. And does the person who stands become by his stand a rallying point for others?
G.R.C. Well that would be the normal thing, even though like the martyrs he may not see the full results of his stand. Some of the martyrs when burnt at the stake may have felt there was no sign outwardly of the situation being saved, but their faith would have a different outlook. Hugh Latimer in meeting his end at the stake (with Ridley) 400 years
ago said, "Be of good comfort, master Ridley, and play the man; we shall this day light such a candle by God's grace in England as I trust shall never be put out". You see we have never forgotten it. It is fixed in people's minds, even unbelievers; they cannot forget Latimer and Ridley. And as you go down the street in Oxford where they were burnt you see a cross marking the spot where the stake stood. It affects even unconverted men. Results must be left with God, for there may be no immediate visible results.
Ques. To bring it into our present time, would it not be very helpful in localities where there is no breaking of bread, etc., for those who are moving rightly and have right desires to make a stand so as to provide a rallying point where others could stand with them?
G.R.C. I certainly do think that.
B.T. And does the word to Timothy help here when Paul says that at his first defence "no man stood with me but all deserted me;" but he goes on to say "But the Lord stood with me and gave me power".
G.R.C. It fits very well. There is a pillar you see. What a pillar Paul was! Able to stand alone. "No man stood with me". How should we be if no one stood with us? That is the point we need to face. Are we able to stand even if nobody stands with us? But then the Lord does not leave Paul alone for long; he is able to say, "Luke alone is with me", but Demas had forsaken him.
F.W.C. And there is the bringing of a recovered Mark too, is there not?
G.R.C. Yes. But then, though Paul was standing alone, he has all the saints in his heart. As far as he was concerned the connecting-rods were intact. In his mind and affections he was linked with all the brethren whether they were standing faithfully
and enjoying God's thought for them or not.
E.C.R. And is that not true of John on the Isle of Patmos too? He was a solitary individual there but he had all the saints in his heart.
G.R.C. He says, "your brother". He has them all in his heart.
J.L.W. Is it not to such a soul that the city is shown? He is the one that got a vision of the city, is he not?
G.R.C. And what is perhaps more important, he got the "revelation of Jesus Christ". That means the glories of Christ were unveiled to John. The primary matter in the book of Revelation is the unveiling of the glories of Christ. Do not let us think of it any more as merely a narration of future events, because if we do we have missed the point of the book. It is the revelation or unveiling of Jesus Christ, and there we see Him in varied glories which are calculated to restore us to first love.
R.W. Should this chapter 27 be an encouragement to us if we find ourselves alone. It shows what governs the whole position does it not, commencing with the altar and going on to the truth of the curtains; that is, the whole truth has been opened up to us, but the question is whether we are going to set aside divine principles. Are we not to abide by these things? The chapter seems to bring out the fulness of things, does it not?
G.R.C. Quite so. So that really if we are true pillars standing on the copper bases and recognising the connecting-rods, what we have before us is the whole truth that the tabernacle system sets forth. We are holding in our affections the altar, and the boards put together, which is a picture of one body in Christ, and the whole thing is the habitation of God, and we have got that before us and we are going to hold to it.
E.C.R. Could we get some help about the expression
"thou shalt make"? I was just wondering whether it does not really involve what you are speaking about as to the truth being worked out in the soul as a result of personal links with the Lord; that is, the truth is taking shape. Thou shalt make -- is that the idea?
G.R.C. I would think so, so that it behoves us all to go into this matter for ourselves and to encourage one another, does it not? We want as many pillars available today as we can get, do we not?
Ques. And does the scripture that we read in Matthew encourage us on this line? I was thinking of the way Peter says: "Lord, if it be thou, command me to come to thee upon the waters".
G.R.C. Yes. Well, you see, Peter was stepping out into elements on which you could not put any human foundation and moreover, conditions were stormy and the wind was strong. You cannot build on the sea, that is the public position now. You might say, 'Where can I put my foot down, publicly?' But then the Lord was there: "Lord, if it be thou, command me to come to thee". And Peter likens that, in his epistle -- undoubtedly he has that incident in mind -- to coming to the Living Stone; and according to the prophecy which he quotes from Isaiah that Living Stone is the foundation: "Behold, I lay for foundation in Zion a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner-stone, a sure foundation". So I am not thinking at the moment of the head stone -- it involves a great deal to go on to that -- but have we got at the foundation yet? that is what I desire we should be sure about. I am afraid -- from our side -- our foundations are not yet firm enough. And the first thing necessary for a good foundation, according to the first scripture, is the copper; but then the full thought in the New Testament is that Jesus Christ is the corner-stone; He is the foundation corner-stone
as well as the head of the corner. And it is a question of coming to Him personally as the sure Foundation that God has laid, so that you are no longer in fear of the waves or even tossed about by them. You know where you are; you have come to the Living Stone.
J.E.N. So that the altar was made "hollow with boards;" they could take it into every circumstance they went through, could they not?
G.R.C. That is good. Say some more about that.
J.E.N. Well, had it been made of solid copper, perhaps, to put it simply, they might not have been able to carry it, but it is a matter of the Lord's humanity is it not, and that He is available to us in every circumstance? We can, as it were, carry the altar wherever we go as they did, can we not?
G.R.C. That is good. We have an altar and it is available to us.
E.J.B. So where the Lord is, there is always the Rock. Peter later took his eye off the Rock through looking at the waves; but the Lord is the Rock no matter how turbulent or unsettled the conditions may be, and the Lord is there.
G.R.C. Well, have we apprehended Him like that? Have we each in our souls reached the foundation, for here it is a personal matter between Peter and the Lord? Have we each arrived at it, for that is how Peter became a living stone himself; he became true to his name, Peter, by this act. "To whom coming, a living stone ... yourselves also as living stones, are being built up;" we are built up on that foundation. Peter came to it. I am not sure that we have all got consciously to the foundation yet, to understand where we are and why. To what extent are the feet of each one here firmly planted practically and intelligently on God's foundation?
J.L.W. Are we more inclined to stick to the boat do you think?
G.R.C. Yes. But you see the man who is going to be useful in the boat -- because he rightly, with the Lord, went back to it -- is the man who is not dependent on the boat; he is not thinking of the boat as a foundation.
E.J.B. It has fallen to pieces now.
R.W. Is it not striking that in 1 Samuel 16 David is anointed in the midst of his brethren, but how many remained really faithful to David? At the cave of Adullam you find specified the kinds of persons that came; but David is not really anointed king until Judah anoint him king in 2 Samuel 2. It seems as if Israel, although they anointed David king in 2 Samuel 5 never remained consistently faithful to David. But Judah did. (2 Samuel 20:2). I was wondering if that was something similar to the present day, because today there have also been such rebellious activities -- there was the Absalom rebellion, and then the matter of Sheba the son of Bichri; David anticipated the latter might prove more injurious than the former. So do you think, as remaining faithful, it would be in the Judah character that we would go through?
G.R.C. Well I would think that, and with Judah it was a question of the appreciation of God's mercy.
R.W. Judah himself was a man prepared to sacrifice his life for his brother.
G.R.C. Yes. And I think that if we are in the appreciation of the pure mercy of God -- who has in His sovereignty foreknown us, and called us, and taken us up -- and of the ground on which He has secured His rights in mercy, namely the sacrifice of Christ and all that that meant, then we shall be prepared to stand through thick and thin. But one would like to appreciate mercy more. He "chose the tribe of Judah, the mount Zion which he loved". Mount Zion suggests God's rights in mercy, secured at such a cost.
W.D. Does the apostle Paul in writing to Timothy speak in the spirit of that language? One wonders whether the sense of mercy has the essential place it should have with each of us with regard to the things you were speaking of. In Paul we have one that has this sense. He says: "But the grace of our Lord surpassingly over-abounded with faith and love, which is in Christ Jesus. Faithful is the word, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the first. But for this reason mercy was shewn me, that in me, the first, Jesus Christ might display the whole longsuffering, for a delineation of those about to believe on him to life eternal". Now what do we come to at the end of that? -- this wonderful doxology: "Now to the King of the ages, the incorruptible, invisible, only God, honour and glory to the ages of ages. Amen". (1 Timothy 1:14 - 17). And then with that he links the matter of the charge. Now has the charge got hold of each one of us personally in the spirit of this scripture?
G.R.C. The charge relates, does it not, to our doing everything we do and say to the honour and glory of the King of the ages to Whose house we belong? The charge is the law of the house of the King of the ages, the incorruptible, invisible, only God; and it is no good saying with our lips, "To Him be honour and glory to the ages of ages", if it is only with our lips; it is to be seen in our lives as well as in our words that we jealously care for all that is due to God in His house.
W.D. Does that accord with the altar?
G.R.C. Yes, it does. But then what you said as to the faithful word and worthy of all acceptation would link with the gate of the court. Because of our lack of understanding of the truth, the human mind is apt to reason and say that if you stand on that base of copper, if you stand for the rights of
God, you will give up being evangelical. It is certainly not so at all. It is dear to God that we should diligently express His attitude of kindness and love to men, and at the gate of the court there was the curtain of blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine linen, and needlework, supported on four pillars each standing an its base of copper. We have not to give up the copper in order to go out to preach the gospel to men.
H.F.R. Could you go out to them properly without standing on such a base?
G.R.C. I do not think you could. If you go out to men without standing on the base of copper you will preach a gospel which if they do receive it -- and they have no more light than you give them -- will leave them in the world; they will go on with the world's system and not with the house of the King of the ages. A true gospel brings them right into the house.
H.F.R. So Peter, who had the experience of Matthew chapter 14 and thus came into the sense of Christ as the Living Stone, as he refers to it in his epistle, is the very one that stands up with the eleven and declares the testimony on the day of Pentecost.
G.R.C. That is very fine. And he it is who speaks of the royal priesthood showing forth the excellencies of Him who has called us out of darkness into His marvellous light.
R.W. Would you say indeed that the more we know of the truth of the house of God the more truly evangelical we will be?
G.R.C. We will be, because the blessed God whose house it is, loves men more than we do. His kindness and love to man has appeared. If we think we alone care for souls, let us keep in mind that God's love for souls is much more than ours; and the more we are with Him in His house and know Him and
His desires, the more truly evangelical we shall be In Ezekiel the river flowed out of the sanctuary, the river of water of life. Where do we think the river comes from for men, the water of life for men? It originates in the sanctuary, and in going out to men we want to bring them back into the full light of the sanctuary.
G.E.Y. Was Paul, at the end of the Acts, two whole years standing on his base of copper, preaching the Kingdom of God and teaching the things concerning the Lord Jesus Christ with all freedom unhinderedly? The testimony went out through Paul despite his limitations, did it not?
P.H. In the scripture you referred to in Peter, he goes on to say, "that ye might set forth the excellencies of him who has called you out of darkness to his wonderful light; who once were not a people, but now God's people; who were not enjoying mercy, but now have found mercy". It is direct from the house!
G.R.C. It is like the river flowing out of the sanctuary.
P.H. Bringing us right down to our foundation in mercy; but what stability!
G.R.C. And the "wonderful light" you see; your earnest desire is that souls should come into the house where God's wonderful light is shining.
H.S.E. All these colours and features in the curtain of the gate of the court are reproduced several times in the priest's garments in Exodus chapter 39 so that what appears on the priest is really what is in the gate of the court.
G.R.C. So the curtain at the entrance displays the same impression. Well, that is wonderful because the priest goes into God in those garments. After all, we are accepted in the Beloved and He is the one we preach to men, is He not? Is that right?
H.S.E. Yes. He is seen like that when he comes out, is he not?
H.F.R. That curtain is constantly saying "Come", is it not?
H.F.R. How attractive it must have been to see that curtain at the entrance!
G.R.C. And then when you get through the first entrance, the gate of the court, the next curtain, at the entrance to the tabernacle itself, was also supported by pillars on bases of copper. The copper was still there. There is the copper all the way through the court.
H.F.R. That is to invite us to come right in.
G.R.C. Yes. Well, what could invite us more than the One who suffered; and the constant reminder of the sufferings He endured, which the copper speaks of, to uphold God's glory?
L.J.J.W. Is it interesting that in the passage in Matthew the Lord raises the matter of faith? Does that have a bearing on this standing?
G.R.C. You tell us something about it.
L.J.J.W. Well I would like some help about it. I was thinking we might have these things in our minds and hold them academically, but we want to be in things in the power of life do we not, and faith is the God-given provision that we may stand, is it not?
H.F.R. Peter's "if it be thou" was the answer to the Lord's "it is L" The Lord wants us to have this understanding with Himself which you referred to at the outset. I have thought of late the cup at the Supper very largely enters into this, and that the new covenant in His blood involves that we really have an understanding with Himself.
G.R.C. It involves foundations does it not, the new covenant in His blood?
R.W. "Why didst thou doubt?" the Lord says to Peter. Brethren are saying things have gone to pieces. They have not gone to pieces.
G.R.C. Well of course Hebrews chapter 13 would help us as to that. The word is: "Let us go forth to him without the camp". We may be sure that if anything goes to pieces it is because of the nature of the camp. The camp -- the profession -- is going to pieces, and very soon going to pieces altogether, but the system we belong to, which is not yet visible except to faith, remains inviolate and untouchable; nothing can injure it, the true tabernacle which the Lord has pitched and not man. We need to stand relative to that. "Let us go forth to Him". First, Peter stepping out to Christ as the sure foundation, and then "let us go forth to him without the camp", as the Inaugurator and Sustainer of the divine system.
R.W. Why does Paul, presumably the writer of the epistle, leave it so late in the epistle before raising that matter?
G.R.C. Well, because you go in before you are fitted to stand outside. But we have not started that way this afternoon because we are taking it for granted that we all know something of the inside; but that is the grace of God. God does not expect us to stand outside until in His grace He has shown us the place that we have inside. So that you attain boldness to enter the Holy of Holies, the place within. Chapter 13 is the place without.
R.W. So first of all you feed a soul, and put before him the positive truths of Christianity, and then that soul is strengthened to move.
G.M. I was wondering if it would be right to take account of that as the way in which Peter moves.
When we do move in answer to the Lord's invitation there is sure to be a test, but then when the test comes Peter says, "Lord, save me". So that at both ends of the exercise we need the One who is able to make us stand. Is that right?
G.R.C. That is very good. That really bears on the epistle to the Hebrews, does it not, because it speaks of His being able to save to the uttermost those who come to God by Him. There is always a hand there to support us.
G.M. Many of us have been tested in relation to these things but Matthew chapter 14 helps us to realize that the Lord is always near.
G.R.C. Well, do you not find that your faith is tested sometimes? I'm afraid I sometimes get occupied with the waves and the billows; it seems all turmoil; and you get occupied with that and you begin to sink. So that we have to say, "Lord, save me", and He lifts us up so that we are consciously again on the divine foundation. But it is very much better to step out and even sink a bit than not to set out at all; and with any experience of any tendency to sink there is the feel of the Lord's hand stretched out to save you and that is well worth having.
F.W.C. We must know to whom to turn when sinking. "Lord, save me". No one else can save me.
H.S.E. Do you think we are apt to forget that the initial movement was the Lord's? In the fourth watch of the night He went forth to them.
G.R.C. That is very good; say some more about it.
H.S.E. Well, it is the fourth watch of the night, in Roman time, not Jewish time; it brings it into our day does it not? It is 3 a.m. to 6 a.m., the darkest hour of the night, the worst period. But He goes forth to them, and, as you were saying, the hand is always there.
G.R.C. That is very beautiful; you think then that the Lord has come to us like that?
H.S.E. Well, I trust so; it is for us to apprehend that, is it not?
H.F.R. In the fourth watch, the day is about to break, is it not?
E.J.B. Does Paul help us in this matter of standing? He says to the Ephesians, "Put on the panoply of God, that ye may be able to stand". Is that the practical working out of this matter of standing? He says you can stand if you do that.
G.R.C. Well, I think that would apply to us once we have got this understanding. Peter makes the initial move to get on to the sure foundation, then we are to get on to the bases of copper, and then move outside the camp; they are the personal movements of the soul in regard to Christ, which have to take place before we get on to right ground at all, or are sure of it. Then when we have got there, we need the whole armour of God that we may stand because Satan will take us off that ground if he can.
E.J.B. Once you are there you should remain there.
G.R.C. You can see from history that that is another test; but what we are thinking about now is getting on to right ground. Are we there? Have we got this settled understanding with the Lord as to where we stand? But then you can see from history that the question with those who have had that is one of maintaining it. Because otherwise there is decline, and so you find that following the great movements that have been seen, as with Luther and Wesley for instance there came decline. The enemy managed to get in so that they did not go the whole way in the stand they made. But it says, "having accomplished all things to stand" as if standing is the whole thing.
H.F.R. Is any recovery in relation to what is inward?
G.R.C. Yes, otherwise it is not true recovery.
E.C.R. Does the expression, "Lord, save me", become a characteristic expression from our hearts, in the face of reproach or whatever may come in? Thus our personal relations with Him are strengthened are they not?
G.R.C. So you would not limit that to even once a day. We need it all the time.
J.L.W. It has been well said has it not, that most of us, if not all, have second conversions?
P.H. As to standing in a supreme test, Joshua was one who departed not from within the tent even when Moses went back to the camp. Well, when the supreme test came in Numbers chapter 14 the whole nation was against him and Caleb. But as being well acquainted with God's thoughts of the tent of witness, and at home there in the presence of God, he was able to stand, though the whole position seemed to be falling to pieces.
G.R.C. What a test that must have been for those two men Caleb and Joshua! The whole assembly said they should be stoned with stones.
R.W. What is stated following the passage in Matthew chapter 14 suggests that Peter was not alone in this desire for the Lord's saving grace. It speaks of those who besought His help and that as many as touched Him were made thoroughly well, as if Peter's experience may have had a profound effect on others, the outcome being complete salvation.
G.R.C. Yes, quite so, that is the idea. Peter is a sample man and others are affected.
J.L.W. So that the sphere of the testimony becomes a great place for help. I was thinking of what it says in Romans 14, that the Lord is able to make him stand. That is, if we have this spirit of committal to the Lord Jesus there is power to help others, is there not? There is a range of things where we can get help, I am thinking. Like the
straight paths in Hebrews 12 where others get healed, so that eventually we can look for the Lord to work so that every heart is strengthened, can we not?
G.R.C. That is what we need to pray for. "Make straight paths for your feet".