A general desire having been expressed that another visit should be paid to the American continent, similar to that which took place in 1898, the same brethren sailed from Liverpool on 18th September, 1902, and they arrived back again on 15th November. During that period they visited Quebec, Rochester, Chicago, Indianapolis, Knoxville (Tennessee), Baltimore and Plainfield. At most of these places meetings were held for three consecutive days, consisting of readings in the morning and afternoon, and addresses in the evening. At several places there were many present from distant gatherings, At Chicago, where the meetings were intended chiefly for the local residents, there were readings late in the afternoon and addresses in the evening, but a great many from Chicago also went on to Indianapolis.
Before sailing from New York there were two afternoon readings there with addresses in the evening. The character of the meetings throughout was free and happy, and many stated that they had received help and encouragement, The second visit necessarily differed in many respects from the first. The novelty had passed off and the actual state of things was more apparent. One result of this was that the ministry took more the direction of meeting the condition and needs of those present, than a simple setting forth of truth as on the last occasion, It is therefore not so easy to summarise the subjects which occupied attention, nor to refer to them in such a connected form as before, but it may be useful to direct attention to a few of the leading thoughts which were taken up in detail at several places.
There are two which stand out prominently, and they are
As regards the first point it is clear that if God, who is (a) Spirit, and who dwells in unapproachable light, was to make Himself known to man, He must come near him in man, and therefore the Word became flesh -- the Son became incarnate -- took part in flesh and blood. Even so, however, He would still have remained alone -- sinless and perfect in a world of sinful men -- but as men lay under the sentence of death He Himself went down into death, and laid down the life which none could take from Him, so that rising out of it there might be set forth in Him, in resurrection, all that was in the mind and thought of God for man. These blessings are not, so far as the presentation of them goes, limited to any particular class of men, but are for all and every man. The believer is, however, the only kind of man who comes into the actual good of them.
It is of great importance to keep quite distinct in our minds that which in the goodness of God is presented to us as testimony, which man is responsible to receive, and the work of God in the souls of men by which they are brought into the good of it. This last has to do with the sovereignty of God, whilst the former is presented to the responsibility of man.
In considering the second point we must remember that this earth was created and made in view of man being established as head over it. Adam failed entirely to maintain such a position, but the purpose of God as set forth in Psalm 8 will yet be made good, and the scene and time of this being displayed will be "the world (or age) to come". As already stated, from the moment that sin came into the scene God wrought in view of that world, and the faith of His saints was, in one way or other, directed towards it. When the suited moment had arrived He who alone was
competent to be the Head of that world appeared (2 Timothy 1:9, 10) -- a divine Person, but taking the place and condition of a Man. As such He tasted death for everything, and having by that death accomplished redemption, the work which brings in reconciliation, He takes His place in resurrection as the Head of every man, and as Head over all things to the church which is His body, all power being given to Him in heaven and upon earth. We do not yet see all things put under Him, but faith knows it to be true, and all that remains is to wait for the introduction in manifested power of that world, or age, which takes its character wholly from Him who is its Sun and centre.
To be in the light of the knowledge of God as He has been revealed by the Son, and of that "world to come", which, though not yet actually displayed, is established morally in Christ, is the blessed privilege of the christian today.
It is a great help in understanding man's relationship with God to remember that sin is really "lawlessness". The word "sin" has lost its meaning in many minds, partly no doubt from the unfortunate error in the ordinary translation of 1 John 3:4, which states it to be "transgression of the law". An illustration drawn from the 'solar system' helps us to understand lawlessness, and what the contrast to it actually is.
The earth and all the other planets have their appointed places in relation to the sun, and are held in attachment to it by certain fixed laws. Each one is maintained in its proper place and there is no disorder. In those rare cases in which a body seems to break loose from its place the result is destruction, as with the wandering stars of which Jude speaks.
In applying this figure to man it must be remembered that he is a moral being. As such he was created and placed in relationship with God, and though fallen he still owes an "account of himself to God". Through disobedience he broke away from this relationship and so
became a lawless being. His history ever since is one of unrighteousness. Each one has followed his own way, with the result that evil of every kind has developed and man is lost -- is on the way to final destruction. When God graciously intervened to bring in salvation, the first thing we find is a Man in this scene who "loved righteousness and hated lawlessness". This righteous One laid down His life for those who were unrighteous in order that He might bring them to God. He having tasted death for everything, God has given Him a place over all things and all men. In virtue of what He has wrought God now presents in His name forgiveness of sins to all, and to him who receives the testimony Christ gives the Spirit as "living water". This becomes in the believer a spring, welling up into eternal life. From another point of view, by receiving the Spirit the believer is 'firmly attached to Christ' 2 Corinthians 1:21, New Trans.: note.
Christ being, as already stated, the Sun and centre of that new moral system where all is according to God, he who is thus attached to Christ is brought into and maintained in his true place and relation to God. He is now no longer lawless, but is duly subject to Christ, and practises righteousness.
Such are the wonderful effects of appreciating what God has set forth as to the place which Christ now occupies, and we understand in measure the force of the statement that "grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" Romans 5:21.
In connection with the subject of eternal life it was pointed out that whether life is looked at physically or morally it is dependent on certain conditions. Those conditions exist when any person is born, that is begins to live. They are necessary to the infant, and the life is lived in them. The moment a child is born it comes under the influence of the laws which govern all material bodies, and it requires and finds rule and air and light. In spiritual things there are what correspond to these, all found in
Christ. He is "eternal life", and to be really in it one must abide in Him.
With regard to redemption it is important to remember that only the one to whom an inheritance belongs has the right to redeem it for himself, and this brings before us the great fact that God as Creator has rights over men, and that when Christ -- a divine Person -- accomplished redemption He was really (to use the figure) discharging the liabilities which encumbered His own property. Man may refuse to come into the benefits of what has been done, but that in no way alters the fact.
Another interesting point which was brought out is, that in each of the epistles Christ is presented in some special character, and that the appreciation of this is a key in each case to the right understanding of the epistle. As to the gospels this has often been remarked, and it is true to a large extent as to the prophets. It may suffice here to say that in 1 Corinthians Christ is presented as the Wisdom and Power of God by which all that dominates man is set aside in order that all that is of God may be introduced in men, and all on the ground of resurrection. In 2 Corinthians He is seen as the One in whom all the promises of God are established, and in the epistle of John He is "the true God and eternal life".
The sole object of these remarks being to direct particular attention to some of the subjects dwelt upon during the meetings, it is not desirable to extend them further. It only remains to add that there was a strong feeling expressed that in these closing days, whilst it is most important to have an enlarged appreciation of the extent and character of God's thoughts, purposes and ways as set forth in Christ, it is also of the deepest importance to understand that it is only by the individual apprehension of these things in the power of the Spirit, and by being in the condition morally suited thereto, that there can be any real answer in us to what God has been pleased to unfold to us. There is little or no trace of anything formal or ecclesiastical in the early days of the church -- everything
was set up and carried on in the power of the Spirit. If this was the case, then it must surely be necessary now, when everything external is in ruin, and so we may justly appropriate the exhortation to Timothy, "Take heed unto thyself and unto the doctrine".
John 3:1 - 21
G.R. Could you say in a few words what the subject of this gospel is?
F.E.R. I think the point in it is the presentation of Christ according to what Christ is. It differs in that way from the other gospels, because they present Christ more or less officially, while John presents Christ according to what Christ is.
G.R. What He is in His own Person?
F.E.R. Yes, personally; therefore I look upon John as being in a sense the backbone of all the gospels.
J.T. It is not Christ in relation to anything that existed previously?
F.E.R. I think not. In Matthew's gospel Israel is taken up in Christ. In Luke's gospel man is taken up in Christ, and in Mark the prophetic word is taken up. But John's gospel is different. It presents Christ as the Son of God. It is in fact the revelation of God.
J.S.A. I suppose the result of that as affecting man is that there must be a new kind of man or being to say to Him?
F.E.R. The Son of God is the starting point.
W.M. I suppose that is brought out in the preaching of the apostle, God "was pleased to reveal his Son in me", Galatians 1:16.
F.E.R. Yes, "when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, come of woman, come under law, ... that we might receive sonship". Galatians 4:4.
It is important to see that John is peculiar, in that there you get the revelation of God.
R.S.S. Would you say that the first man, the man after the flesh, was really in the way of what you speak? That God could not reveal Himself in connection with him; so you get Him coming into the world and the world knowing
Him not, and to His own and His own receiving Him not; and then the Son of man is lifted up at the very beginning in this chapter.
F.E.R. The Son of man lifted up is really the testimony of God. It is God coming out in love -- the Son of man lifted up is the point of attraction. "I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me".
W.M. Like the brazen serpent lifted up in the eyes of perishing men.
R.S.S. Is it not the setting aside of man?
F.E.R. That is incidental in it; the point is the testimony itself. The death of Christ is the great testimony of divine love. The Son of man must be lifted up, for God so loved the world.
It is God coming out in love to take up the liabilities under which man was, hence the Son of God must needs become incarnate, so that all that lay upon man might be taken up in a Man, but it was the testimony of divine love.
W.M. So the removal of man was incidental.
F.E.R. The point is what was behind it on the part of God, and that was the love of God.
W.M. When it is a question of the Son of man being lifted up, that does not bring in divinity; is not that in the Son of God more?
F.E.R. He must be lifted up as Son of man. It is only thus He could be lifted up. He must assume that condition to be lifted up, but the point is that God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son. The Son of man is the only begotten Son of God who must be incarnate to be lifted up.
J.T. You think the expression "Son of man" alludes to His incarnation.
R.S.S. In connection with what you said at first, that in John it is what Christ is personally; you find the love of God coming out, because it is His nature.
F.E.R. And there is the revelation of the Godhead. The revelation of the Godhead could not be except in a
divine Person. God could not reveal Himself by writings; no prophet could reveal God. He could speak what God told Him to say, but neither prophet nor inspired man could reveal God. God is not revealed in writings or prophecies. It is in God coming out in the Son. God has spoken to us in these last days in the Son. He has revealed Himself.
R.S.S. In connection with that, it is remarkable that you get in the first chapter "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him".
F.E.R. Exactly; that leads you to what lies behind Scripture. The Scriptures are inspired and give us the account of the revelation and how the revelation has been received, and the responsibility connected with the revelation, but the revelation itself is behind it all.
W.M. Many people confound inspiration with revelation.
G.W.H. Would you say there had been no revelation of God until Christ came?
F.E.R. There had been communications, but no revelation of God, because there had not been anybody adequate to reveal Him. God is declared now, but it is by the only begotten Son in the bosom of the Father. Everything is changed by the revelation of God.
J.S.A. God was in Christ. It is not merely that He spake by Him. He was in Christ.
R.S.S. We have been in the habit of saying that in Old Testament times God was partially revealed and made known. For instance, in the way He spoke to Moses, "by my name Jehovah was I not known". Would you not speak of that as revelation?
F.E.R. I would not. It left man to a very large extent in dimness; there was no real revelation of God in His nature.
J.T. The expression "Jehovah" spoke of God coming out in Christ.
F.E.R. All was anticipative. God dwelt in the thick
darkness; that characterised Old Testament times. He dwelt behind the veil. It was in the death of Christ that the veil was rent from the top to the bottom. Not exactly in the life of Christ; that is, not fully. In the death of Christ God came out.
W.M. So in that way Christ's flesh was a veil.
J.T. The faithfulness of God really depended on the Son becoming man to bring out what "Jehovah" signified.
F.E.R. I have no doubt the revelation of God was bound up with another immensely important point; that is, the Son coming out in order that He might be the Head and centre of the creation of God. I think the two thoughts are most intimately connected. When the moment arrives for Christ to come out as the Head you get the full revelation of God.
J.T. So the Old Testament scriptures could not be understood actually until the Son became Man.
F.E.R. The prophets did not understand their own prophecies. We understand them because we have the Centre.
J.T. I think that is very important, because I do not think it is quite seen that these things were anticipative. All looked on to the introduction of the Son.
F.E.R. So the Lord Jesus said, "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me".
J.S.A. It was said at Quebec you could never understand the Old Testament until you read it in the light of the New.
W.M. The New Testament is morally before the Old.
F.E.R. For the simple reason that Christ is the beginning. It is difficult to a great many people to understand that Christ is the beginning. He is the Head of the body, the church, which is the beginning, not merely the Head of the body, but the beginning. So the Lord speaks of Himself to the angel of the church at Laodicea, "the beginning of the creation of God".
F.E.R. Yes. He is "the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God".
J.S.A. And what was really the divine thought was only brought out after the responsible side has been gone through.
G.R. It has been said that Christ is the beginning of the new creation?
F.E.R. Can you refer us to the scripture?
G.R. No, I could not. I could refer you to a hymn. I think it is exceedingly important that Christ is the beginning of the creation of God.
J.T. And I suppose that this has its bearing on us even as connected with the present order of things. For instance you would not go back to Genesis for instruction as to your conduct even in your family. You get it all from Christ now.
F.E.R. Exactly. He is the beginning of the creation of God. It is only in Christ that you get the right idea of things. I have no doubt that things which God established from the beginning, relationships, etc., really had Christ in view.
W.L.P. What does creation in that light really mean?
F.E.R. It takes us back to the beginning. To get the true idea of things morally you must learn all in Christ, because God established everything in view of Christ.
W.L.P. Is it the same thought in Hebrews, "by whom also he made the worlds"?
F.E.R. You get the thought anyway, in Proverbs 8, in the idea of wisdom.
J.S.A. And Adam was a figure of Him who was to come.
F.E.R. No doubt Adam bore certain traits of Christ.
J.A. So if families are allowed on earth God would have His own family also.
F.E.R. The relationship of man and wife has manifestly Christ and the church in view.
J.S.A. It is referred to in the instruction as to how you are to behave in that relationship.
F.E.R. So also the position in which God set Adam as the image and glory of God had Christ in view.
J.S.A. I think you were saying some time ago that no doubt all creation had some reference to Christ -- the sun in the heavens, and so on.
F.E.R. I think so. By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God; there is wisdom seen in the order of the universe, and wisdom was Christ.
J.S.A. I think there is practical gain in seeing that, because it connects everything with which we have to do with Christ.
J.T. And it puts a saved soul in connection with its proper centre.
F.E.R. Because the truth of the gospel is really Christ Himself. It is not only what Christ has done. I think what Christ has done is in a way secondary, the gospel is the introduction of Christ Himself, I mean as the Head and centre -- like the introduction of the sun into the universe, so Christ has been brought into the universe and that is glad tidings.
W.M. And Christ is being presented as Head in testimony before He is publicly brought in as the Sun.
J.S.A. And what the believer gets is not simply certain things from and through Him but everything in Him.
F.E.R. Yes, in whom we have redemption.
J.T. And that holds good in connection with all the characters of the Old Testament. You think of Christ as the Heir of the world.
F.E.R. Every man of faith presented some trait of Christ because Christ was in view. It is important to apprehend the existence of some traits of Christ before sin came in. One can understand it after sin had come in, but it is important to see that Christ was in the mind of God from the outset.
W.M. So the world to come is not established until the marriage of the Lamb takes place.
J.T. What do you allude to as traits of Christ before sin came in?
F.E.R. In what Adam was as created we see a difference from all the rest of the creation. You get in him intelligence. He was the object of reverence to the inferior creation, set over the works of God's hand, etc. He was the image and glory of God, the centre of the whole order of things down here upon earth. This was all in view of Christ. It was to be fulfilled in the Son of man. You get man and the Son of man in Psalm 8, but the object of divine counsels is not man but the Son of man.
G.W.H. Do you get the thought of the headship of Christ when you see Him as the beginning?
F.E.R. I think so. I think the Head is wisdom incarnate. Wisdom is the explanation of all God's dealings. Then wisdom becomes incarnate, and incarnate wisdom is the Word, or perhaps the Word is incarnate wisdom.
G.W.H. And I suppose it is to Christ as Head that man has to say.
F.E.R. I think so, because the Head is wisdom for man; the idea of a head you get in your own head, what guides you entirely is your bead. The members are accustomed to look there naturally for guidance, but now the point is, that the real Head over all things, of every man, is Christ. He is the wisdom.
J.T. But the necessity for wisdom coming in would be because of the confusion.
F.C. Do you think the unconverted man would get the good of Christ as Head?
F.E.R. Yes, if there were no Head there would be judgment and nothing else. If God had not brought the Head in things would have been cut off long ago.
F.C. We know that man often does turn to the Lord in time of difficulty for instance.
F.E.R. I think the present moment is remarkable. It is the accepted time and the day of salvation, the world is brought into reconciliation, but all consequent on the truth of Christ having come in as Head, and all that goes on. People are often surprised that God can go on with such an evil world, but He will not act in judgment until
the world sets up a rival head. When the apostasy and the antichrist have come in then the judgment of God arrives. That is what we get in 2 Thessalonians 2. God has now opened a door of faith to the gentiles and they stand in the goodness of God.
G.W.H. God will execute His judgment on the rival head.
F.E.R. Exactly, and on man who sets up the rival head. Antichrist is set up by Jew and gentile; it is not the work of Jew alone, but antichrist really gets his existence by apostasy of Jew and gentile.
J.A. And meanwhile God gives us opportunity in the gospel to turn to our true Head.
F.E.R. And men get the benefit. Look at the material development in this immense country. It is largely owing to Christ being Head. They may not acknowledge Him as Head, but the great prosperity of the western world is a consequence of Christ being Head.
W.L.P. That is because it is stamped as christian.
F.E.R. Yes and a certain amount of light is there. Christianity has given enormous impetus to the intelligence and cultivation of man, much more than men allow; but it brings in responsibility.
J.T. What would you say about the state of things before the Head came in?
F.E.R. Before that time the world was in the greatest moral degradation, the Jew as bad as the gentile, and the gentiles all idolatrous. Things are much altered in the world on account of the Head having come in, and in connection with that, christianity.
G.W.H. Do you get the description of the state of things in Romans 1?
F.E.R. Quite so. That is the world that was, then God set forth Jesus to be a mercy-seat through faith in His blood to declare His righteousness, and everything is changed. The world is on different ground; all were liable to the judgment of God, but now the world is in reconciliation, man has another Head in Christ.
J.S.A. And therefore the true character of preaching is to present Christ as Head.
F.E.R. Judgment cannot come in until man shows his hand thoroughly. You get the principle in the Old Testament; until the iniquity of the Amorites was full God did not dispossess them. And judgment does not come in until man shows his hand. "He who now letteth will let".
J.T. Christ as Head will be on the side of man.
F.E.R. Yes. He has taken up His position as Head in virtue of redemption. He has accomplished redemption in taking up man's liabilities in order that He might occupy His position of Head. Christ has a right to every man, and every man has a right with regard to Christ.
W.L.P. That is the thought in "The grace of God which carries with it salvation for all men has appeared".
J.T. The grace would be commensurate with the place that man has with God.
F.E.R. Christ has bought the field for the treasure.
W.M. You mean the people when you say the field?
G.R. You made a remark at Quebec that whatever Christ did He did for Himself.
F.E.R. I was only saying that He accomplished redemption in order that He might be the Head, so He accomplished righteousness that He might be the Sun of righteousness. Whatever Christ accomplished, the first effect was in regard of Himself. He gave Himself a ransom for all that He might be the Mediator.
R.S.S. You speak of Christ in that way officially?
J.S.A. And you get the idea pretty simply in the statement that if He is to be the leader of our salvation He must be made perfect through sufferings; that explains the thought of doing it for Himself.
F.C. So it is not true that the wrath of God abides upon all men now.
F.E.R. I cannot see how you can get that; it is contrary to the statements of Scripture. When it speaks of "now"
being the accepted time I do not see how you can connect wrath with a reconciled world.
F.C. We have used that verse in the end of John 3 in that way.
F.E.R. I think the "he" in that verse is representative; it is fulfilled in the Jew; wrath has come upon the Jew to the uttermost. They are suffering under the wrath of God nationally and governmentally; they are scattered over the earth.
W.M. But that is not final; it is provisional.
F.E.R. But there it is; wrath is come upon them to the uttermost. It will apply to those who declare themselves as against Christ, but God waits for man to declare himself. We are so impatient.
G.R. Does not God's way with the Jew make that very clear? Wrath did not come upon them until they had distinctly said, "We will not have this man to reign over us".
F.E.R. Then He sent forth His armies and burned up their city. I do not think the gentile has quite declared himself in a public way so that God can deal with him in wrath.
J.T. He will deal with those "that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" 2 Thessalonians 1:8.
F.E.R. That must come out in a public way.
G.R. So today Christ is the test for every man.
F.E.R. Quite so, the testing is not yet over.
J.S.A. That is a very important principle in a general way for though you may have a very distinct impression of things morally and feel how they are going, yet according to God you do not take judgment of it until it is declared manifestly.
J.A. When an individual takes his place as a sinner and confesses Christ he finds instead of wrath being upon him that grace is for him.
R.S.S. This principle comes out in the disciple who betrayed the Lord. The Lord did not expose Judas or
reject him from the circle of the apostles, but left him there until he declared himself.
W.M. And so the long-suffering of God is salvation.
J.T. I think the idea of patience is very practical. I was thinking of the passage in Thessalonians that follows on the instruction as to the antichrist, he adds, "the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patience of the Christ".
F.E.R. You will find the truth of long-suffering going through Scripture. The ark was a hundred and twenty years in building, so in the case of the Amorites, God waited four hundred and thirty years. So in Israel, God was loath to cast them off. After He had cast them off He brings part of them back into the land to put the test of Christ to them. They reject Christ and even after that is so He gives them another test, and that is the Spirit; and when they refused every overture on the part of God wrath came upon them to the uttermost.
W.M. And thus the world comes into reconciliation.
F.E.R. Yes, because Christ bought all, and God now regards the world as being Christ's. But when the world publicly refuses Christ, and sets up the rival head, everything is changed.
G.W.H. Would you say the reason for His long-suffering is to display the riches of His grace?
F.E.R. And to accomplish His purposes for Christ bought the field for the sake of the treasure, and now the point is to bring out the treasure.
W.M. The treasure represents His purpose in purchasing the field.
F.E.R. The elect have to come to light. You find that in the epistle to the Romans; in chapter 8, the elect are brought to light.
G.R. Would this third of John be the beginning of God's getting the treasure?
F.E.R. I think so. All is put on the broadest and largest ground. It is a question of God's thought and heart
toward man. It is a most wonderful thing that God could come out in that way.
R.S.S. I think that we ought to learn a good deal in our ways with one another in seeing God's patient ways with men.
F.E.R. The common thought has been that the effect of the death of Christ was to bring all men under the judgment of God and that there was only one outlet from that judgment, and that was by faith in the blood of Christ. But the fact is this, the effect of the resurrection of Christ has been to change the entire aspect of things down here and to bring all men, the world, into reconciliation by Christ. Now the question arises in regard of men, not of escaping from the wrath of God but of accepting the situation. God has formed the situation; is man going to accept it? If he does, he gets the Spirit and is by the Spirit attached to Christ. If not, he declares his lawlessness and that lawlessness will in result find its head in antichrist; that is the truth of things. Now is an accepted time. The emphasis is on the word now. The apostle gives a present application to that scripture.
J.T. The great thing then is to present the situation rightly.
F.E.R. I think that is the thing for preachers, so that man may apprehend and accept it. That is faith because the situation is not public so that man's eye can see it. It is interesting to see in Luke 7 that both debtors were forgiven. "He frankly forgave them both". People forget that sometimes.
J.T. It was wonderful grace that Christ was in Simon's house.
F.E.R. God was as favourable toward Simon as toward the woman, only the woman appreciated the situation. Simon, the self-righteous man, rejected it, and therefore did not get the good of it.
J.S.A. That brings out a point which is very important, that what is set forth in Christ is God's thought for every one, not for believers only.
F.E.R. That is one of the most important principles I know of. What God has set forth in Christ is His mind for man. It sounds a little strange at first, but the more you look into it the more you see it.
W.M. We are never called upon to believe anything with regard to ourselves. We believe what is true for everybody.
Ques. Is that why that verse comes in in Colossians, "warning every man"?
F.E.R. Yes, Christ is the expression of God's mind for every man. The apostle sought to present every man perfect in Christ.
J.T. I suppose we might say our title to what is in Christ is because we are men.
F.E.R. Yes, through God's mercy I believe in Christ and what is set forth in Christ, but I have no more title than any other man.
R.S.S. And no less. I suppose what was before us in what we read was really God stating what His attitude is, that "God so loved the world, that be gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life".
F.E.R. Exactly, in redemption He has taken up the liabilities. The serpent lifted up in the wilderness carries us back to the garden of Eden. God goes back there. The biting serpent was lawlessness. All the dealings of God had failed with Israel. They had come out perverse after thirty-eight years in the wilderness and then God goes back in testimony to the garden of Eden, to the original serpent; the spirit of lawlessness which came in by Satan. By one man sin entered into the world; the truth of it is expressed in the serpent lifted up. Christ was lifted up in testimony, made sin; Christ took up that under which man was, according to the love of God, in testimony.
J.S.A. And therefore it is rather more radical; it is not merely what man has done but the state of man.
F.E.R. Romans 2 and 3 are not occupied with what man has done but with the state of man. They take up the
state of the gentile and the philosopher, then the Jew. It is state that is in question. "Their throat is an open sepulchre", Romans 3:13.
F.C. As a result of the work of God souls are often occupied with what they have done rather than what they are.
F.E.R. That may be, but there is not much effect produced in people until they come to the consciousness of what they are.
F.C. Would you say that forgiveness is in connection with what man has done?
F.E.R. Yes. Man's responsibility is in connection with what he has done, not with what he is. So man must have a sense of forgiveness, but after all the great question is man's state.
J.S.A. And forgiveness of sins is not mentioned in the gospel of John.
F.E.R. Except "whose soever sins ye remit" That is administrative.
W.M. I suppose the death of Christ is the introduction of order into the moral universe.
F.E.R. I think order is brought into the moral universe by Christ Himself. He is the beginning of order. There was not order in the physical universe until the earth was set in relation to the sun. You get certain things preparatory, but rule in creation was in connection with the sun. The greater light was set to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night. Order and regularity were brought in by the sun, and the same applies in regard of the moral universe. So John says, "the darkness is passing and the true light already shines". 1 John 2:8.
W.M. And the gospel is the test of whether men will come into attachment to Christ and thus into order.
G.W.H. Does it say God loves the world or is it He loved the world?
F.E.R. I think it is His great testimony.
G.W.H. How about the scripture "Now is the judgment of this world"?
F.E.R. You cannot always read Scripture terms in the same way. For instance, John says, "all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world". That is a different idea from "God so loved the world". John sometimes uses the 'world' as the state of things down here morally, that is, moral principles; but John also uses the 'world' for the people in it. It is not the world system that God loved but the people in it. It is the world in contrast to the Jew.
J.S.A. It would be rather on the line of Titus, the "love of God our Saviour toward man appeared".
G.W.H. I suppose in John 12 it is the moral system.
F.E.R. I think it is that state of things which existed in regard of Israel, to which the Lord refers in, "Now is the judgment of this world". There has been one world as a system and there will be another. I do not think there was any world in one sense until Israel came in, and Israel became the head and centre of the world which God regarded and in the midst of which He dwelt. All that world has come under judgment. It has been swallowed up by Babylon, but there is another world coming which is spoken of in Hebrews 2, "the world to come".
G.W.H. Would you say that the world to come in Hebrews 2 is a moral system characterised by Christ?
F.E.R. The world which has been was to a large extent put under angels. In some way or other there was the administration of angels in connection with that world, but the world to come is put under Christ. I take it that is the reason of what we get in John 1; the Lord speaking to Nathanael says, "Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man".
J.T. That would be when He judges the world.
F.E.R. When He establishes the world to come. I do not think there is any state of things down here which God owns when Israel is cast away.
J.S.A. "When the most High divided to the nations
their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel". Deuteronomy 32:8.
F.E.R. When you get the judgment of Israel, you get the judgment of all the nations that stood in relation to Israel, the whole family. God knew Israel in a special way, but He took account also of the nations around, of Moab, Ammon, the Philistines, etc.; these constituted the world of which Israel was the centre.
J.S.A. And you might say God would not recognise any world except where Israel had its place.
F.E.R. That is the point of the world to come. Jerusalem becomes the joy of the whole earth. God allowed Israel to be entirely swallowed by Babylon; Babylon is the world of man's glory, but the world to come will be the world of God's glory.
W.M. Who delivered "us from this present evil world", that is the world that was.
F.E.R. That is the whole Babylonish system down here; the two things are mixed up, the church and Babylon.
W.M. What is the force of commanding repentance in view of the statement that God will judge the world in righteousness by that Man whom He hath appointed? Is it connected with His administration in the world to come?
F.E.R. Yes. God is not going to tolerate the existing condition of things. The whole system down here is Babylonish; the mind of God is favourable toward all men, but if you look at the organisation and state of things in the world it is Babylonish. Man is glorified. Babylon is man's glory and that characterises the day. You get great kings and leaders, politically and commercially. It is a day of man's glory without moral title or qualification. Do you think that God is going to bear with that forever?
G.R. So you would say there is no one nation in any greater favour than another.
J.T. The great thing is that God will bring in judgment.
F.E.R. Judgment will return to righteousness. It has been divorced from it but it will return.
R.S.S. What does that scripture in the end of Acts 17 refer to? Is it the judgment-seat of Christ?
F.E.R. No, it is in view of God taking up the government of the world publicly, in view of the kingdom.
W.M. So that men are commanded to forsake lawlessness in connection with introduction of order into the universe.
F.E.R. It is a kind of last word which Paul gave them because they were perverse. Paul says, the times of this ignorance God winked at, but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent. So repentance is preached in the gospel.
R.S.S. Would you say that repentance is a breakdown?
F.E.R. It is man forsaking lawlessness. When a man accepts Christ as the divinely appointed Head, he forsakes lawlessness. He has been ruled hitherto by his own will, but he turns to Christ. He presents to us righteousness. Righteousness is God's will; lawlessness is the will of man and Satan. Repentance is the first movement in turning from lawlessness to righteousness.
G.W.H. Would you say that the Thessalonians did that?
F.E.R. Yes, they turned to God from idols. It is a wonderful thing to see that God has a moral universe before Him and that He is seeking to attach souls to the Head and centre of that universe.
R.S.S. Would you say what you mean by attachment to Christ?
F.E.R. As a woman is married to a man, she is bound. What God is going to display is a moral universe, a world has already been set forth in the providence of God, but God is going to display a moral universe in His light. When God comes out in holy splendour then there will be a universe ordered on moral principles. Now you have a
world where man has a great opportunity of glorifying himself and doing his will and he does not fail to avail himself of it, as much in this country as in any other.
G.W.H. Would you say attachment is the forming of a divine link?
F.E.R. Exactly. If you take another illustration it is seen in what exists between the earth and the sun, there is nothing lawless in the heavens. That is what the psalmist says in Psalm 19, "The heavens declare the glory of God". Attachment is the contrast to lawlessness. If the earth did not move in an orbit it would be lawless, but it does move in an orbit and proves it is attached to the sun.
W.M. And therefore in the heavens there is no disorder.
F.E.R. The heavens declare the glory of God.
J.S.A. And the link in us with Christ is the Spirit.
F.E.R. And therefore the testimony in John 3 is that you may get the living water in John 4.
R.S.S. You spoke at Quebec of three steps, attraction, attachment and affection.
F.E.R. Every man has to be attracted, and then attached, and then you get affection for Christ.
J.A. And until you are attached, you do not properly answer to the purpose God has for you.
R.S.S. Your illustration of husband and wife applies all the way through.
F.E.R. It is a scriptural illustration, we are become dead to the law by the body of Christ, that we should be married to another.
J.T. Would you say that God undertakes to set things right on the principle of attraction, not by repression?
F.E.R. Yes. He has brought in the Head, and all are attached to that Head, "I ... will draw all men unto me".
W.M. So the gospel is the setting forth of that situation.
F.E.R. The gospel is the glad tidings of Christ. What a wonderful thing it is that there is a moral universe. I see a very immoral world now, but God is going to set forth a moral universe in the light of divine love.
R.S.S. And I think the more you know of the flesh in yourself and in your fellow men the more thankful you are that God is going to bring in another order of things.
J.S.A. And nothing else would suit His glory.
John 4:1 - 15
G.R. Would you not say that in this chapter there is a very distinct order?
F.E.R. I think so. It is in one sense a pity that the gospel is divided into chapters; it is more a series of subjects.
R.S.S. Would you give us a little idea of those subjects?
F.E.R. The first two chapters are the confirmation of everything, on the ground of resurrection, to the Jew. Then in the third and fourth chapters the Jew is done with in a sense, for the time being, and it is the world that is in view. In the third chapter it contemplates man in darkness and in the fourth chapter in thirst. The two moral conditions in which the world was are darkness and thirst. Then we see the way in which God has come in to meet these conditions. The third chapter brings in light, and the fourth living water -- the light to dissipate the darkness, and the living water to meet thirst.
R.S.S. Is the love of God the light?
F.E.R. Yes, the testimony of God's love in the death of Christ. Christ is the light and the light has come into darkness. Then in the fourth chapter Christ gives living water. You may depend upon it where darkness is there is thirst. On the other hand where light is there is satisfaction. We know it in natural things. People in darkness do not know where they are going; they are not content or easy -- but when you come into light you get a kind of satisfaction.
W.M. I suppose the sun is the source of light for this universe, and darkness seems to characterise the Old Testament to a large degree.
F.E.R. Of course God gave them glimpses of light. He sustained them with hopes and expectations, but what has come in now is that the darkness is passing and the true
light now shines. We have now the light of day, and living water. That is what meets the condition of unrest and thirst in man. The woman at Sychar was a typical person, representing people of the world running after this thing and that thing, excitement and pleasure, and all that is going on here. But the Lord proposes what would bring in unfailing satisfaction, "the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life".
R.S.S. He referred to the Spirit when He said that, but in what way?
F.E.R. As an energy in the believer, like a well of water, so that you may understand your relation to Christ. The Spirit brings you into attachment, then you understand by the Spirit, what Christ is to you, for Christ is eternal life. It never could be said we have that in us; Christ is eternal life and the Spirit springs up in us so that we appreciate what Christ is to us. It is thus we come into eternal life.
W.L.P. "Springing up into eternal life". Is that the understanding of eternal life now?
F.E.R. I think it is the understanding and appreciation of the conditions which God has established in Christ. In Christ God has established conditions in which it is possible for man to live morally. That is what we can see, and the Spirit is a well of water in the believer that, springing up, brings you into the understanding and appreciation of those conditions. No one ever had everlasting life except by an indwelling Spirit, that is the Spring in us. Paul's testimony was in principle just the same, "he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting".
J.S.A. Life whether natural or spiritual is characterised by conditions.
F.E.R. Wholly dependent on conditions and none of us could live apart from those conditions. Spiritually these conditions subsist in Christ. When He comes into the world again it will be the same. Eternal life will have its
own place here upon earth as the Lord said, "in the coming age life eternal", and again you get it in the expression "In hope of eternal life".
J.S.A. Would it be out of place to mention some of those conditions now?
F.E.R. The conditions are illustrated by what is essential in natural life. The first is rule, the second is atmosphere and the third is light. These are essential to life morally, as naturally.
W.M. I suppose you hardly get these in the gospel of John, but in the epistle.
F.E.R. I think so. The gospel brings out more the kind of person who has it, the epistle what he has.
G.R. Do you connect rule with what we had this morning -- attachment?
F.E.R. It is the effect of attachment. Whatever is brought into attachment comes under rule as whatever is attached to the sun comes under the rule of the sun. So it is regarding believers. As the apostle says, "not as without law to God, but as legitimately subject to Christ". Every inch of His body was subject to rule, just as every inch of our natural body is subject to rule.
G.W.H. Do you mean by rule, moral sway?
F.E.R. Yes, in spiritual things.
W.M. He that abideth in Him sinneth not.
F.E.R. That is the object of rule, so that you do not sin.
G.R. Like the word in the fifth of Acts, "to them that obey him".
F.E.R. "He became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him". Hebrews 5:9. Even the Lord Jesus put Himself under rule, "made under law", and He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. He made all rule, but He came Himself under rule in becoming Man. Rule is the first principle of the moral universe.
G.R. That would come out in connection with what you were saying this morning. He took that place in order to be Head to us.
F.E.R. Exactly, "being made perfect", that is positionally,
"he became the author of eternal salvation to all them that obey him".
F.E.R. The spirit of the christian circle. If a man gets into a coal mine and there is fire damp, the man cannot breathe, but in a healthy atmosphere, above ground, a man can breathe and live. The same is true in the christian circle, it is not an atmosphere of moral death but one that is healthy and invigorating, and if a man has lungs he can breathe and live.
G.R. The contrast would be, "she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth", 1 Timothy 5:6.
F.E.R. And the apostle puts it, "For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another". That is the condition in which we were; that is not healthy nor invigorating, it is a very killing atmosphere.
G.W.H. Do you get the circle of life and death in Colossians 3?
F.E.R. You get the circle of life, but I do not know about death. You get the christian circle and the qualities of it.
G.W.H. Do you not get the opposite of it?
F.E.R. I do not think so, for the moment. Perhaps you mean in connection with the old man, put off all these.
G.R. Having found the atmosphere, what is the third thing?
F.E.R. You get the light, that is the revelation of God, in all that God is toward us in our pathway down here from beginning to end. You are in the full shining of divine light, that is, the light of divine love in its application to us all along our responsible course.
F.E.R. Yes, love is made perfect with us with regard to the judgment-seat.
W.M. Were not these conditions there before the gospel began to be preached?
J.S.A. You mean the 'circle' was there.
F.E.R. Before the gospel was preached Christ was exalted, the kingdom was there, or the apostles could not have preached it; they preached the kingdom. Peter was to administer the kingdom, and it was there because Christ was exalted in virtue of redemption; and then the christian circle was there also.
J.T. Did it not depend on the christian circle?
F.E.R. Exactly, without that you do not get the atmosphere. A single christian would not bring atmosphere. You must have company. "We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren". You have passed out of the atmosphere of the world, which is hatred, into another atmosphere, that is, you love the brethren.
J.T. So the conditions allude not only to what is in heaven but to what is on earth.
F.E.R. It refers entirely to earth. We had that four years ago. This has been attacked, but I am only more confirmed in it, that eternal life applies to earth and not to heaven.
J.T. I do not think we are very much alive to what is here.
W.M. It makes it in a way difficult to carry such a gospel to the heathen, because you have not the conditions.
J.T. But the conditions are here.
W.M. But the house of God is not in order.
F.E.R. But you can carry the tidings of the kingdom to them. You could not say much about eternal life to them. The kingdom may be beyond the house in a way; that difficulty is not a practical one to us.
J.T. When the apostles went out to present the gospel, they had something behind them which was actually existing upon earth as a witness.
F.E.R. And the Lord gave them evidence, and the
powers of the world to come. They carried that, and there was the circle to which they could appeal.
J.S.A. And those who were converted were added to that company.
G.R. Does the expression apply to the whole company, "The people magnified them", because that would give great power to the testimony?
F.E.R. I think so. They were greatly struck by the conduct of christians one to another.
J.T. There was a sphere formed where righteousness and peace and joy were found.
F.E.R. And there was a circle characterised by the love of Christ. We have a wonderful expression in the prayer in the third of Ephesians, "that ye may be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height", that is, the whole extent of the moral universe, "And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God". It is not only that you apprehend with all saints the breadth and length and depth and height, but you know what is going to fill it, and that is the love of Christ. But we know that now in the christian circle. It is the atmosphere which christians properly breathe. Of course the difficulty of the present day is that so many christians are buried in the great mass of christian profession. You cannot breathe freely in these great systems. You do not know one another in a simply christian point of view. There is a poor atmosphere and people do not thrive very much.
W.M. So you really came out to get breath.
J.T. You could not blame one much for that.
F.E.R. Men are ready enough to do it naturally. I came out to do it spiritually.
R.S.S. There is a difference between what is spoken of here as the water springing up, and the fruit of the Spirit spoken of in Galatians.
F.E.R. Yes, that is another matter. Fruit is the effect of
healthy conditions. In natural things again, a tree is dependent on conditions. It would not thrive apart from them; in a dark, smoky place it would not thrive or bring forth fruit.
J.T. The point in this chapter would not be the fruit.
F.E.R. No, I think it is the first principle, eternal life, then I think you get fruit. Until you get eternal life there is not very much of fruit bearing.
J.S.A. And God sets forth in the third chapter His mind that man should have eternal life. It is shown that the first thing necessary is a new start, new birth, and in the fourth chapter the living water is in view.
F.E.R. The thought of new birth is brought in to put the Jew out of court, so that everything may be put on the broad ground of "God so loved the world".
W.M. That is very striking, because new birth is not spoken of in connection with the gentiles.
F.E.R. The necessity of it is brought in, to put the Jew out of court. Nicodemus ought to have known it. The argument practically is this, that if the Jew needs to be born again, a gentile might be born again, because the Jew has no exclusive claim to being born again. He had claim as to the promises to Abraham, but none to new birth. It is purely of the sovereignty of God's love.
J.T. So that the third chapter would be largely on the divine side. We get it in that way, the lifting up of the Son of man. But then the next chapter is our side, how we get into it.
F.E.R. The third chapter brings out what is in God's mind with regard to the world, but it does not tell you how you get it. The fourth chapter gives you the 'how'. It is well for God to say it is in His mind that whosoever believeth in Christ should have everlasting life, but one may say 'how am I to get it?'
W.M. Many will tell you they get it by believing.
F.E.R. You get nothing without believing.
W.M. Then eternal life is God's mind for everybody, not only for the believer.
F.E.R. It is in God's mind for all for it says whosoever. It is very important to apprehend that God has not two thoughts in His mind with regard to people; He has one thought with regard of all. God would have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
J.T. You say we get nothing without believing.
F.E.R. Nothing except light. By faith we have the apprehension of what is in God's mind for man; it does not give it to you. For instance, as to forgiveness of sins, you do not get that by believing. You know it is in God's mind. Faith apprehends that, but you do not get it by faith in any available way.
G.R. I thought you got the Spirit consequent on forgiveness.
F.E.R. You get the Spirit consequent on there being forgiveness in the mind of God for man.
J.T. But why would it not be all right when you have the light of God's mind?
F.E.R. Because you want a witness. I do not think you have it in any available sense without a witness.
J.T. The testimony in the Acts was that forgiveness was preached in His name.
F.E.R. That is all right and forgiveness was God's mind in regard of all, "that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem". It is a great thing when one comes to apprehend the fact that forgiveness of sins is in the mind of God toward all. Hence it is clearly toward me. But in order to get it effectually and availably I want a witness in myself. The mere apprehension that it is in God's mind toward all would not give it to me availably.
W.M. That is what you meant this morning by saying that all blessings were in Christ.
F.E.R. But the appropriation of all blessings from beginning to end is by the Spirit. You have the witness of nothing apart from the Spirit.
J.T. In Ephesians they believed the gospel of their salvation.
F.E.R. They believed that God had brought salvation to the gentiles, then they received the gift of the Spirit, and then they got all those blessings which come in in christianity, in an effectual and available way.
J.T. Would it not be correct to say that they had the light of forgiveness before?
F.E.R. Yes, but light was that forgiveness was there.
J.T. Would not that be pretty much what we have taught, that they were forgiven?
F.E.R. But in a certain sense all are forgiven; forgiveness, in the appropriation of it, is that you have the witness of it in some way in yourself. I think you can see it in this way, the outward public effects of sin are not yet set aside. The christian dies like any other man, he is sick, etc. The outward results and effects of sin are not yet put aside. So that in order to know you have forgiveness you want a witness in yourself. In the millennium you will get what was shadowed forth in the two goats on the day of atonement. It is a curious thing that on the day of atonement though they offered a bullock for a sin offering for Aaron and his house there was no scape-bullock, but when you come to Israel, there was not only the goat for the sin-offering but there was the scape-goat, and on the scape-goat the sins were confessed and carried away into a land of forgetfulness. So it will be with regard to Israel hereafter, sin will be demonstratively put away; they will be delivered from their enemies, and death and sickness will be put aside, and God will be here in light in Christ, and it will be evident and public that there is forgiveness of sins. How can you prove to anybody that you are more free from death and the consequences of sin than any other man? The only way we can get at it is by witness. The practical result of the witness is that sins cannot come in between us and God; everything depends upon the witness.
W.M. In keeping with that, would you say that both
Simon and the woman in Luke 7 were forgiven? but the woman got the witness in the word of Christ.
F.E.R. I think so, forgiveness was in God's mind equally for both.
Ques. On what ground do you get the witness?
F.E.R. By faith, that is, sealed by the Holy Spirit.
Rem. A great many have believed and have not the Spirit, and are in doubt and darkness.
F.E.R. Quite so, they are not free with God because the real test of having forgiveness is liberty with God.
G.W.H. You were saying you do not get anything by believing, would you say you get salvation by believing?
F.E.R. No more than anything else. What you apprehend by faith is that salvation is there. You could not get it without believing, but it is not by believing. You get it just as you get forgiveness, by the Spirit.
F.E.R. Yes, and no one but the believer gets it, because otherwise people are indifferent, but salvation is by the Spirit.
J.S.A. The salvation which is in Christ Jesus.
Rem. What men need is the Spirit.
F.E.R. Scripture goes so far as this, "if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his".
A.H.E. Will you kindly explain the reply of the apostle Paul to the jailor at Philippi.
F.E.R. He simply tells him that believing on the Lord Jesus Christ he would be saved and his house, and afterwards he expounds to him the word of the Lord; then they were baptised and received the Spirit and were brought in that way into salvation. He was saved by the Spirit, just as we are saved. We are brought into the reality of what subsists in Christ.
W.M. Would you say salvation really lies in being brought into these conditions?
F.E.R. Yes. The Spirit is a well of water springing up into everlasting life. You are saved out of the system which is obnoxious to God, like Israel saved out of Egypt.
A.v.DeB. It is a wonderful thing to be saved!
F.E.R. It is a great thing to get into the reality of it.
Rem. I suppose believing is a work of God.
F.E.R. Faith is the gift of God, but then you must remember when speaking in that way that men are under responsibility to believe; if God addresses Himself to men in the way of testimony there is a responsibility attaching to man to believe what God says, because otherwise we make God a liar. The gospel is presented to the obedience of faith.
W.M. I suppose people have to be clear about righteousness before salvation.
J.S.A. It is a great point in chapter 4 the receiving of living water.
F.E.R. I was saying that the beginning of the third chapter contemplates a world of darkness (and the Jews were as dark as others), where God is not known; and the fourth chapter a world of thirst. It is a remarkable thing how very little things have changed. Take this vast country; it is to a large extent a world of darkness. Men attach importance to certain things, politics, money, etc., but do not concern themselves about what is in the thought of God. They think a great deal more about worldly advantage than about God. If you were to talk to them about God they would not be at all concerned to hear you.
J.T. What strikes one is the inability on every hand to judge of the relative value of things.
F.E.R. Quite so. The fact is, in a rich community money becomes their god; it is the mammon of unrighteousness. Christendom is almost as dark as heathendom.
J.T. In the third chapter where darkness prevails light is introduced.
F.E.R. As the Lord Jesus said, light is come in; the testimony of God is there. God has come out to make known His thoughts toward men.
J.T. I think that it is often thought that the light refers to what the Lord was here in the flesh.
F.E.R. I do not think you get the full light until you get the Son of man lifted up. It is there the light shines, in the death of Christ.
W.M. It is the way God took to come out.
F.E.R. The veil was rent from the top to the bottom. It was rent on the divine side.
R.S.S. The testimony of the gospel is not connected here with salvation, but with that which is even beyond it, life.
F.E.R. Still of course it covers it. Eternal life covers salvation.
R.S.S. But salvation is a means to that end. I suppose you could not be here in the enjoyment of eternal life unless you were in the good of salvation.
J.T. Is it not right to say, you could not be clear from death in your spirit unless you are in the sphere of life?
F.E.R. If you have come into the christian circle you have come into the ark, and the ark was salvation to Noah. You are saved there. The great difficulty in the present day is that many people do not very well come into salvation, because they really remain more or less in the world. I admit it is a christianised world, but the world is there. Salvation is connected with baptism, "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us", they came in through the water into the ark. That is where people properly are now. They are in the house of God, and salvation is there, and there is no salvation out of it.
W.M. The washing of regeneration is needed to bring us into the new place.
F.E.R. That probably refers to baptism.
J.T. That is not much use as a text for the gospel.
F.E.R. With a very great part of christians salvation lies as a term. They do not know much about the reality of
A.H.E. Is not the ark a type of Christ?
F.E.R. Yes, but the christian circle is Christ here.
G.W.H. Would you say the divine thought in connection with this type is the bringing of water to satisfy the thirst of the world?
F.E.R. To satisfy the thirst of man. The Spirit attaches us to Christ and the effect is that you enter into the apprehension and understanding of conditions which exist in Christ. You come under those conditions and thus into eternal life.
G.W.H. I suppose the effect is to bring us into correspondence with Christ.
F.E.R. The first thing is to come into conditions, the other follows. When a child is newly born it comes into conditions in which it was not before; that is, it comes into the conditions of rule, atmosphere and light. It is born with a body and lungs and eyes, but until it is born these functions do not come into exercise; then the child finds all the conditions existing. And so it is when we are born spiritually, we come into the apprehension of conditions which exist in Christ. Then it is we come into eternal life. What we ought to be earnest about is to maintain healthy conditions. I have no doubt whatever that plenty of christians in the present day are struggling to maintain a kind of christianity in the world, but there is an atmosphere in the world that stifles all spiritual life.
R.S.S. Salvation really brings you out of that.
F.E.R. You have salvation in the fact of being brought out of it. Salvation belongs to the christian circle, really the house of God. God has placed it there.
R.S.S. And it delivers you from this present evil world and your associations in it.
F.E.R. You come into entirely different associations where the very air you breathe is the love of Christ, "Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren". That is the atmosphere of the christian circle.
R.S.S. Would you say that eternal life is really the
entering into the new conditions and salvation is coming out from old ones?
F.E.R. Exactly. We are saved from the old by being brought into the new, but it is the Spirit that brings you into the new. Baptism and the Spirit bring into the new conditions.
W.M. So that eternal life is always presented in Scripture as the moral end.
F.E.R. It is life in the christian circle and death to the world.
G.R. You get that word in Ephesians, "Awake, thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light".
R.S.S. I suppose the reason we are so little in the enjoyment of eternal life is that we are not careful to see that we get clear from those associations.
F.E.R. Then there is another thing that enters in, that is the state of the church. I do not believe for a moment that in the existing state of things it is possible to realise things as they did at the beginning.
J.T. That makes the situation very difficult. The thing may be plain enough to us, but the realising of it is a different matter.
F.E.R. I do not believe it would be of the Spirit of God to allow us to completely ignore or be unaffected by the condition of the church.
J.S.A. And yet what we are not directly responsible for we have to accept.
F.E.R. You get the same thing in the last days of Israel, there was a godly and pious people who were going on according to God; they spake often one to another, but they were affected by the general condition of Israel. Take Simeon for instance, waiting for the coming of the Lord, saying "lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word: for mine eyes have seen thy salvation". Just think what an anomaly, wanting to depart in peace when he had seen God's salvation. He ought to have wanted to live. But he knew Israel was going to
reject Christ. He said, "this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against". Therefore Simeon does not pray to live. He virtually says, I have come to an end of all expectation; I have seen the desire of all flesh, let me depart in peace.
R.S.S. It is greatly in contrast to Hezekiah and both were Israelites.
F.E.R. Simeon was a man told by the Holy Spirit that he should not see death until be had seen Jehovah's Christ, and he was content to pass away because he saw what the presentation of Christ to Israel would mean.
J.T. The eunuch on the same line was also content to accept it.
Do you think it would be well to accept the condition of things at the present time; the tendency is to set up something pretentious.
F.E.R. I think brethren have been diligent to set up a nice little pattern of the church.
J.T. And to call that the assembly of God at Rochester or elsewhere.
F.E.R. Something of that kind.
J.T. What one notices is that that seems to drown individual faith in the Lord and resting in Him.
F.E.R. I have said many times if I were challenged as to my connection with any body of christians on earth I would say that I have no connection with any body special and I would mean it.
R.S.S. You do not mean any person?
F.E.R. Any person if you like.
W.M. You mean that you are connected with all christians.
F.E.R. I have no more connection with one than another; the only difference is we cannot all walk together, but walking does not establish any special connection.
R.S.S. Does not the question of fellowship come in?
F.E.R. Fellowship is universal. In a way I have fellowship with persons in system as with others.
W.L.P. How far would fellowship go with christians in system?
F.E.R. I would seek to walk in the light as God is in the light, and if another man does that I would walk with him.
W.M. You can take a longer walk with some people than with others.
F.E.R. If a man has his elbows out you cannot walk very close to him.
R.S.S. We speak of 'our fellowship'.
F.E.R. If you mean christian fellowship I do not mind. If you mean a special fellowship I object very much.
R.S.S. Would you not speak of a person being received into fellowship?
F.E.R. We only admit that that man is fit to walk with christians anywhere.
W.M. When you speak of our fellowship you mean christians anywhere.
F.E.R. Exactly. We have to get out of the idea of a special and select community which is a little pattern church.
W.M. If a person is put away, he is put out of the whole church on earth.
F.E.R. We put a person away because that person is not fit to walk with any christians, not because he does not please us. He is engaged in such a course of conduct that he is not fit to walk with any christians. You want to be very sure that he is not fit for the company of any christians before you decline to walk any more with him.
J.T. We shall have to think about that a good bit.
F.E.R. The more you think of it the better. I have thought of it a good bit myself.
A.H.E. The danger of the other thing is that we become pharisaical.
F.E.R. And are very well content with it. I think we ought to contend earnestly in the present day against what we may call brethrenism.
J.S.A. One great beauty of the writings of John is that it is the moral side, nothing ecclesiastical that is in view.
F.E.R. So, too, when you come to 2 Timothy you do not get a word about anything ecclesiastical -- all is moral. You have to be a vessel unto honour. Then again, "Flee also youthful lusts".
J.T. It is a very natural thing to break bread with people.
F.E.R. It is right to walk together if you are agreed. Then we are right in seeking as far as we possibly can to act in the light of the church, but with the sense that we are not the church. That is the only guidance or direction that we have. We do not assume to be anything, but to act in the light of the church. I could plead with God in regard of it.
J.T. It is quite natural we should seek to get all the light we can to make the most of the situation.
W.M. What we have belongs to all.
G.W.H. We avail ourselves of it and the others do not.
F.E.R. It is a great thing to get into the region of the Spirit; to retire from all that is of flesh and man and human order. There is no real christianity outside of the Spirit of God.
G.W.H. And all pretension of any kind is contrary to that.
Ques. That being the case, can you put a person out of fellowship?
F.E.R. What that means is, that I am not going to walk with him, if he is a wicked person. You get a man who is a liar or a perjurer or a thief, I am not going to walk with that man. That is a simple thing to my mind. As to the mere form of putting him away from fellowship, that does not matter to me.
J.T. You say you cannot. What about others?
F.E.R. They must give him up, too, or I cannot walk with them.
J.S.A. In 2 Timothy you get permanent instruction for individuals. If I find any going on with God I am bound to go on with them.
G.R. You made a remark about the region of the Spirit.
Being in that region seems to be apart from the world and the flesh, because He convicts the world of sin and He resists the flesh.
F.E.R. That is what I maintain. If you get there you get out of the world and the flesh and human order. All christendom is set up according to human order. They were tested in early days, and then in order to check the evil, they set up the best order they knew, but it was human order. I have no doubt the introduction of elders and bishops came in as human order to check evil. If you get into the region of the Spirit you get outside all human order. You cannot have any clergy there. In the earlier days elders and deacons were men full of the Holy Spirit. We have to go back to where things began, to get into the region of the Spirit, and then you get outside of all human order and organisation.
W.M. These men undertook their work in the power of the Spirit.
G.W.H. The office was a spiritual one rather than official.
F.E.R. What they did they had to carry out by the Spirit.
J.T. I want to find out a little more about the man you could not walk with. Cannot the saints act in the light of the church?
F.E.R. I think they have to act in the light of the church; that you cannot have fellowship with such a person.
Ques. How about a christian in system? Would you speak of him as a brother?
F.E.R. Yes, unless he was guilty of some bad course.
Luke 1:67 - 80; Luke 24:44 - 53; Acts 13:46 - 49
What I may call the first great lesson of the many that we have to learn as christians is that of the righteousness and faithfulness of God. Around us in the world there is everything to call this in question. So you can easily understand how important it is. Then there is another point connected with it; it must be the moral foundation in our souls. If you have not some sense of the righteousness and faithfulness of God, you have not a God on whom you can rely. Reliance and confidence on God are all founded on that. There may be but a poor sense, but any sense of the righteousness and faithfulness of God is a wonderful stay.
Now, as I said, the knowledge of the righteousness and faithfulness of God is really the foundation in the soul of every believer. In the most elementary of Paul's epistles, the epistle to the Romans, the great point is that Christ has come out and accomplished redemption in witness of the righteousness and faithfulness of God. That is the subject of the epistle. Jesus is set forth as a mercy-seat to declare God's righteousness, that is, in redemption. God has declared His righteousness in regard of all men in grace.
The law in a sense witnessed the righteousness of God, but in the way of demand, and rightly so, too, because God had rights, but it was no good to man, because man could not answer to the demand, but in redemption God sets forth His right in grace, for redemption is His right, and that in grace, so that He might be able to communicate His Spirit to the believer. That is the difference between the law and the gospel, but in either case there is the witness of God's righteousness. The apostle speaks of the righteousness of God being witnessed by the law and the prophets, but it has been declared in redemption.
Redemption meant God taking up man's liabilities so that He might impart to the believer the gift of the Spirit. That is the first part of the epistle to the Romans; but there is another part, and that is the declaration of the faithfulness of God, for the position of the Jew, as scattered over the face of the earth, and not having come into the fulfilment of the promises, has called in question the faithfulness of God. That point is taken up in the latter part of the Romans, and the faithfulness of God is vindicated in Christ just as in the first part the righteousness of God is vindicated in His present dealings in grace. So although the gentiles have a place for the moment in the olive tree, yet if they continue not in the goodness of God they will be broken off, and the Jews will be grafted into their olive tree. All will prove and experience the mercy of God.
I have referred to that because it is the subject of the most elementary treatise to believers. God will do right, and nothing but right, and God is faithful after all. It is a great thing for us all to apprehend.
No one can truly know anything about the love or the holiness of God until they have come to a sense of the righteousness and faithfulness of God.
Now you get the same principles brought out in the gospel of Luke. We might sing this song of Zacharias, the application of which is undoubtedly to Israel. It does not go beyond Israel, and outwardly and nationally what is spoken of in the song has never yet been fulfilled. John the baptist was born as a witness of it. He was to be the forerunner, "And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways; to give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins". The song is prophetic. Zacharias spoke by the Holy Spirit, making known nothing new; but confirming what God had previously declared of His thought with regard to His people Israel. But though outwardly the song has never been fulfilled, I am going to show you it has been fulfilled
in principle. And it has been fulfilled in such a way as that the gentile should be brought into it.
Now referring again to what I was speaking of, that is, righteousness and faithfulness of God, it is remarkable that it is what the Lord in Psalm 40 takes up continually. He says, I have declared Thy righteousness and faithfulness. This was in His ministry down here. And now both are witnessed in Christ on high, for on the one hand He is the expression of God's righteousness, and at the same time He is the Deliverer who is to come out of Zion to turn away ungodliness from Jacob. All the hopes of Israel are bound up with Christ at the right hand of God.
There are two great thoughts in this song, salvation and light. It is with these I want to take up your thoughts. They were in the mind of God for His people. Notice verses 69 to 72, and 74 and 79. It is remarkable that though Zacharias was the father of John, and what was celebrated was the birth of John (the Lord was not yet born), yet Zacharias said but few words about John. You will find a great deal about Christ. John was not the horn of salvation; Christ was that. John was not of the house of David; Christ was of the house of David. Then the day-spring from on high to give light to them that sit in darkness was not John but Christ. John had his own place as the friend of the Bridegroom, "thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways", but the whole song is a prophetic celebration, by the Spirit of God, of Christ -- He was the horn of salvation and the light; that is, the dayspring from on high to give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.
But to revert to the thought of salvation and light, the two blessings which God proposes for His people. Evidently it is a great thing for people to get light. Nothing could be greater, and salvation is equally important. It contemplates this, that the natural man is in darkness and
is at the same time exposed to enemies; this was the position of Israel, and the thought of God with regard to Israel was that they might have light instead of darkness and salvation in place of fear of enemies. All this will be fulfilled in regard of Israel hereafter. They will be awakened nationally and brought into the light of God; they will learn what is in the heart of God toward them -- and in it there is an object in view, that they may serve God in holiness and righteousness all the days of their life. Figuratively this was accomplished when Israel was brought out of Egypt; they were brought into the wilderness, and in being brought into the wilderness, they were in a sense brought into the light of God. They had the glory of God, the ark of the covenant, and God spoke to them; they had salvation from the Egyptian, and the point was that they should serve God in holiness and righteousness all the days of their life.
Now though this song will in result be accomplished in regard of Israel, it is sad to meditate upon the present condition of Israel, scattered abroad and abiding for many days without ephod or teraphim, with neither king nor prince; yet the Spirit of God contemplates their being brought into the light of God and into God's salvation that they may yet serve Him without fear in holiness and righteousness all the days of their life. That is a very blessed thought for the end must be that men should serve God. The thought of God is not that man should serve himself, but that in liberty he might serve Him. Pharaoh proposed that the people should remain in bondage and serve God, but that would not do. It was necessary that the people should be delivered from the hand of their enemies if they were to serve God.
Now the horn of salvation has been raised up and the dayspring from on high has visited Israel. It had not come to pass when Zacharias spoke, but now it has come to pass. The prophet was there but John was the pledge of more, the pledge of Christ. John was in a, sense born miraculously and was the forerunner of Christ, and now
Christ has come; a light to those that sat in darkness and in the shadow of death.
If you turn to Luke 24:49 - 53, what I will call your attention to is, that what Zacharias spoke of has been fulfilled. At the end of the gospel and in the beginning of the Acts of the Apostles we have nothing but a remnant of the Jews; those are not gentiles. I ask any one whether all that Zacharias spoke of was not fulfilled. Do you not think that in the early part of the Acts of the Apostles there were people brought into the light of God who realised that the dayspring from on high had visited Israel? It is true that Christ had been crucified, but He had gone up on high and the Holy Spirit had come, the dayspring had visited them. They realised that God had raised up a horn of salvation in the house of His servant David? Peter pressed in his preaching that when David spoke of resurrection he did not speak of his own resurrection but of Christ; that is the first thing; they had light. And they were made acquainted through the preaching of the apostles with what was in the mind of God toward them. The apostles preached and urged upon them forgiveness of sins, on the condition of repentance, because forgiveness of sins was in the mind of God toward them. God had raised up Jesus to be a Prince and a Saviour to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. Then there was another thing; they had salvation from enemies and from the hand of all that hated them. God had not yet destroyed their enemies, but, none the less, they had salvation. At first, after the death of Christ, the disciples were very much in fear of the Jews, but the Lord delivered them from that fear. They were delivered from the fear of man and of death and of Satan -- from the power of all their enemies. There were enemies and very real enemies. You see God has other ways of delivering people than by destroying the enemies. If God saw fit, and He will see fit one day, He could destroy the enemies, but the enemies are not yet destroyed but believers are delivered from their power. The disciples had felt their power; we see
that especially after the death of Christ, "the doors were shut ... for fear of the Jews", but they were delivered out of the hand of their enemies. God gave to them the Holy Spirit which carried them above fear. I ask any thoughtful person here whether in principle all that was not accomplished. The disciples after the ascension were in the temple continually, praising and blessing God, waiting for the advent of the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit came, and confirmed them in that which they were doing. They had light, and salvation from their enemies and from the hand of them that hated them -- the Sadducees and the chief priests and Satan and the fear of death. They were delivered from the power of all so as to serve God. They came together continually to serve God, for God had given deliverance to that end. We should be prepared ever to serve God. Sometimes we are content with an occasional hour or two, but this only indicates how low down we are, because if God has come into give us light and salvation we should be thankful to serve God without fear in holiness and righteousness all the days of our life. I have an idea that many think their great concern is to follow their business, but that is not the end God has in mind for you. It is only incidental down here. God does not relieve you from that responsibility, but it is not His thought in regard of you. Egyptian toil was not God's thought in regard of Israel, but that they should serve Him. If you have followed me you will apprehend how that thought of God which will be literally fulfilled in Israel has already been fulfilled in a remnant that was saved at the outset, and God secured for Himself a worshipping company. Do you think the apostles ever gave it up all the days of their life or that they ever came again under the power of the enemy? They were delivered from their enemies and from the hand of all that hated them, and continued in the service of God in holiness and righteousness all the days of their life. Their power of continuance did not depend on them, but on the Spirit, and the Spirit is continued to us.
Now, I want to point out that the thoughts of God are enlarged. These same thoughts that have come before us must go out to the gentiles. I would refer again to the verses in Luke 24:44 - 48, also to Acts 13:46 - 48. In the latter passage the apostle says it was necessary that "the word of God should first have been spoken to you". The word of God had not exclusive reference to the Jews; it was only necessary that in the faithfulness of God it should first have been spoken to them, but the word of God contemplated things beyond the Jew, and when they refused it it was spoken to the gentiles. God did not propose something different to the gentiles. He only waited until the Jew rejected it, then He showed that the word of God had as much reference to the gentile as to the Jew. I have spoken of the faithfulness of God, and how what was spoken of in the song of Zacharias was made good in a remnant, but now I come to the righteousness of God, and in the righteousness of God He must go out to the gentiles, "Thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem". "Thus it behoved" is an expression which indicates the righteousness of God, and therefore Christ had to die and to rise from the dead the third day.
I understand the passage to refer to redemption, and redemption is not a question merely of the grace of God, but of the righteousness of God. In Romans 3, where the point is redemption, the Spirit of God is declaring the righteousness of God. He says, God hath set forth Jesus "to be a propitiation though faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness". He does not say the grace of God, though the word 'grace' might be put where righteousness is. But the point is to declare His right, and grace is God's right. God's righteousness simply means what is right, and grace, through redemption, is that which is morally right. I have illustrated it in this way: if I had an inheritance and it was encumbered by mortgage, if I
could discharge the encumbrance I would be right in doing so, and nobody else in the world could do it; that is, only the person to whom the inheritance belongs has the right of redemption. Now, supposing that men were the inheritance of God, because God created them; they had come under mortgage; that is, they were under liabilities by the judgment of God. Well, God alone had the right of redemption. No other had; man had no right whatever to redeem himself, nor could anyone have redeemed man, for nobody had any right to man except God. God saw fit to take up the liabilities, to discharge the mortgage; redemption is the exercise of a right that properly belonged to God. Therefore it is the declaration of His righteousness. I believe this is the principle on which the grace of God has gone out universally to men. You must remember that although Israel belonged to Jehovah, yet after all, all men belonged to God; God was not only Jehovah to Israel, but He was Creator of all men. Therefore, the Lord Jesus says "that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem".
Therefore, you get in this gospel the two principles which are of so much importance with regard to our knowledge of God, that is, the faithfulness and the righteousness of God, in which God has taken up His right of redemption in respect of all men. Therefore, the testimony of the grace of God has gone out to all men, and yet, even here, the faithfulness of God is seen. It was not until the Jew had put the word of God from him that the word went to the gentiles, and then the testimony is, "I have set thee to be a light of the gentiles". The dayspring from on high had visited the gentiles and salvation, that is, by the horn of salvation, had gone out to the ends of the earth. What God had proposed in His faithfulness to Israel, now went out world-wide to all men. Now Christ is a light to the gentiles and God's salvation to the ends of the earth. Christ stands in that way in relation to the gentiles.
There are very few that apprehend this, but it is a great moment when people do apprehend it. If you look into the heart of God, what wonderful things you find there. God's heart has been laid bare to us, and you find there nothing but love. You know that the source and spring of everything which God does is love. Even judgment, strange as it may seem to say it, is of love, and I will tell you why, because it is not according to love to allow lawlessness. Therefore, love will put down lawlessness in judgment for the blessing of the universe. God is love. That is a most absolute statement, and we are permitted to look into the heart of God so that we might know what is in that heart in regard of man.
I admit that in that heart there are counsels of wisdom, but they are devised by love. It is a wonderful thing to be in the light of love; to be able to say like the apostle John in chapter 4 of his epistle, "we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him". That is light, and on the other hand, we have salvation. We are no longer in fear of enemies. Are you? It is a poor thing if you are; if you have the Spirit of God it is that you might not fear enemies. Are you afraid of death? Christ has opened a way through death, just as Moses opened a way through the Red Sea to Israel. We have passed out of death into life in a sense already; are risen together with Christ. Are you afraid of man? The apostle Paul was not afraid of man. He had to stand before the emperor, the greatest dignitary upon earth, but it gave him opportunity for the testimony. Are you afraid of Satan? You have only to be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might, and you need not be afraid of Satan for a moment. The truth is, salvation is in Christ, a horn of salvation has been raised up that we might be free from the fear of our enemies. There are those that hate us, but we are delivered from their power that we might serve God without fear in holiness and righteousness all the days of our life.
I do not want to give you the idea that as things are in the world you can devote all your time to the service of God. It may be you have not spiritual energy for that, and circumstances do not admit of it, for we are not relieved from the common toil of humanity as a consequence of sin, and it is wise, for this serves us as a kind of discipline, but we get the divine thought that we might be without fear. Israel was before God without fear when they had passed through the Red Sea. They saw the Egyptian dead on the sea shore, and God was before them. They came, afterwards, through unfaithfulness, into fear of one kind and another, but they should have been without fear. When they were hungry they got the manna from heaven, and when they were thirsty they got water from the rock. Ought we to entertain fear or misgiving? We are delivered from our enemies and the hand of all that hate us that we might serve God in holiness and righteousness (because God will not have to say to impurity and lawlessness) all the days of our life. It is a blessed exercise. We cannot take it up every moment, but we can revert to it by the Spirit of God; that was God's thought with regard to Israel, and it has enlarged out to the gentiles according to the word of God. The word of God never could be narrowed up to Israel, because what is seen in scripture is God's righteousness. The right of redemption has given God claim in regard of all men.
John 6:27 - 58
R.S.S. I think you said yesterday that John gives us a course of subjects, that in the first two chapters we have the establishment of the promises to Israel, and then in the third light coming in to dispel darkness, and in the fourth satisfaction coming in in contrast to thirst. What about these chapters?
F.E.R. The third is the testimony of God's love, and the fourth the gift of Christ, the living water, the well of water in the believer that springs up. In chapters 5, 6 and 7, you get the light in which Christ is presented to and known by the believer. The believer is not the point in chapters five to seven; it is rather Christ and the way in which He is apprehended. For instance, in the fifth chapter Christ is presented to us as the Son of God in life-giving power. Every one of us knows Him individually. Then in the sixth chapter He is presented as Son of man, the food of the believer. We all know Him in that way because the principle is, "He that eateth me, even he shall live by me", the living bread come down from heaven. It is an incarnate Christ, the food of the believer's soul. In the seventh chapter is a further point, Jesus glorified and the Spirit given; so that the chapters offer a complete presentation of Christ to us, as He is known by the believer, and in that sense there is the witness down here of Christ. Every one of us is a witness to Christ.
G.W.H. You were saying that in the third chapter He is presented as light to a world in darkness, and in the fourth as satisfaction to a thirsty world, and then in the sixth I suppose you would have Him as food for a hungry world.
F.E.R. That is true, but there is a sequence in the chapters; for if you had not the fourth you could not have
the fifth, sixth and seventh, and apart from the third, you could not have the fourth. The first great principle is, God must be known in His mind toward man before there can be any communication of living water to us. Then it is by the Spirit that Christ is known in the light in which He is presented in the fifth, sixth and seventh chapters, because a great deal, practically, depends on the knowledge of Christ. The testimony of God's love meets the darkness of the world and the gift of living water meets the thirst of man, but when the thirst is met there is another point, in what light is Christ known, that is what these chapters answer.
J.T. Is the first thing in that connection that we hear His voice?
F.E.R. I think it is His work, "My Father worketh hitherto, and I work". It is the Son of God in life-giving power; we are a proof of His work, and we know the Son of God in the character of His work; that comes out in the case of the paralytic. You get an illustration of the power there, acting in the domain of death and raising man up in life. The Son quickens whom He will, "The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself".
J.S.A. And that goes on to actual resurrection.
F.E.R. Exactly, because you do not get quickening fully until it is applied to the body.
W.M. And thus, in that, there is witness to the power of Christ.
F.E.R. In the latter part of the chapter Christ appeals to the witnesses, and says the works that I do bear witness of Me.
G.R. What is the difference between the quickening in chapter 5 and that in the beginning of chapter 3?
F.E.R. The beginning of chapter 3 is not quickening, it is opening a man's eyes. Quickening is making a man to live. New birth does not make to live in that sense.
W.M. I suppose the one is the beginning and the other is the end of God's work.
F.E.R. Yes, quickening in Scripture is presented in connection with the coming of the Lord, "as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive". "He that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you".
W.M. And therefore a person is not quickened until he hears the voice of the Son of God.
F.E.R. The proof that he is quickened is that he hears the word of Christ, and believes on the One that sent Him.
G.R. In that way he has passed out of death unto life.
J.T. The testimony in chapter 5 is the testimony of life in the scene of death.
F.E.R. But it is the testimony of the Son of God, the chapter differs from the two preceding chapters in that it opens with a sign and the sign signifies something; the sign was there in the miracle; what was seen signified what Christ is. The Son of God was there in life-giving power.
J.T. You say the testimony was more to Him that He had life in Himself.
R.S.S. What is the difference between a sign and a miracle?
F.E.R. A miracle does not necessarily go beyond an act of power, but a sign has some peculiar significance. It is a witness of something. So when Christ was born the angel said, "this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger". The babe was there, and the babe signified something.
J.T. The raising of the paralytic was a figure of the raising up of Israel.
F.E.R. And no doubt the chapter goes beyond that, because it says, "as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will". You can understand that you can place no sort of limitation on the Son of God, "the Son of God with
power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead". That is what you get in this chapter.
J.S.A. It is the Person known as such by His works.
F.E.R. That is the light in which Christ is known to us. It is a great thing to know Him in that light, for there is no limit to His power. It will go on to the quickening of the body and the raising up of Israel, even to the raising up of all the dead. He deals with the entire domain of death, even to the resurrection of the wicked.
J.T. It is a great thing to have Christ before you in that way.
R.S.S. I suppose the great thing about Abraham was that he knew the God of resurrection.
Ques. Are all the miracles in John signs?
F.E.R. Yes. I think the number of miracles in John is limited to seven.
R.S.S. When it says, "This beginning of miracles", is that the beginning of signs?
F.E.R. He manifested forth His glory. It was a sign as to who was there. The raising up of the nobleman's son is another sign, and in these two chapters, the raising up of the paralytic and the feeding of the multitude are two more.
W.M. It shows that nothing ecclesiastical can be a witness to Christ.
J.S.A. I think it is clear from the epistle that it is the knowledge of Christ in this character that gives us power over the world. "Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?"
F.E.R. The real truth is that He has power to bring about a world out of death. John 5 corresponds to Ephesians in a way. It is in a scene of death that the Son of God works according to the Father. The Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He seeth the Father doing. Therefore everything really is the work of God.
W.M. I suppose people are often hindered from seeing
the significance of these chapters by looking at them as meeting their own need.
F.E.R. I do not think that is the point; it is well to keep before us that they present to us the light in which Christ is known to the believer.
G.W.H. Would you say the Son of God works in a world of death to bring out souls into a world of life?
F.E.R. I think it is to form a scene of life. He is the beginning of it, the Firstborn from the dead. He works in the scene of death to bring to pass a universe of life. It is in that way that He creates another universe. He might have done that readily, but the point is that He creates a world out of the wreck and ruin of this world.
J.S.A. And that process is going on now in souls, and the moment will come that bodies will be introduced into it and then it will be displayed.
F.E.R. In the coming of the Lord you get the quickening of everything.
W.M. In the meantime the darkness is passing and the true light already shines.
F.E.R. It is that which is true in Christ and the believer.
J.T. In bringing to pass the blessing of Abraham the Lord said to him "in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed". This will bring that to pass. I was thinking of Christ acting in accord with the Father, and the Father's commandment is life eternal.
W.M. What is the meaning of that expression, "His commandment is life eternal".
F.E.R. It is, I judge, an allusion to Psalm 133, "there the Lord commanded the blessing, even life for evermore". I think the Lord alludes to that in saying, "I know that his commandment is life eternal".
R.S.S. It is a remarkable thing that a man was displaced from the garden of Eden in order that he might not partake of the tree of life, and now God has brought in an order of things in which be can readily partake of it.
J.T. He said in this chapter, "Search the scriptures;
for in them ye think ye have eternal life" and then He adds, "and they are they which testify of me". That would be that they pointed on to Him as the One who would bring it in.
G.W.H. Would you say God has been working all along in view of a world of life and blessing?
F.E.R. I think you get proof of that in Hebrews 11.
J.T. What is the idea of Zion being the centre of blessing where it is commanded?
F.E.R. Because Zion is God's great testimony. You see in Luke 24 it behoved that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name among all nations beginning at Jerusalem. Zion is His testimony. The gospel began at Jerusalem. Zion is witness of the eternal faithfulness of God. The ark was carried by David to mount Zion. Then they sang "His mercy endureth forever". To my mind it sets forth a risen Christ. Everything has been lost by man in the death of Christ, but in the resurrection of Christ everything is given back because resurrection comes in in the power of redemption. I do not mean to say that there is not a literal mount Zion, but the true mount Zion is Christ risen.
W.M. And being on the ground of resurrection it means sovereign mercy for all.
F.E.R. Resurrection comes in on the ground that God had been glorified and redemption accomplished.
G.R. Would you say the gospel of John supposes Christ risen? The truth is all connected with a risen Christ.
F.E.R. Yes, because we have the thought of the death of Christ from the outset. In the third chapter we read, "as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up".
G.W.H. You referred a moment ago to Hebrews 11. What do you mean by that?
F.E.R. It only shows this, that all along God was gathering out in divine dealings a company for heaven. All saints held to the promises and embraced them, but
they could not be made perfect without us. It proves that God was gathering a company for heaven.
W.M. He had the world to come always in view.
F.E.R. And I have no doubt whatever faith had always the world to come in view. Enoch, Noah, and Abel had that dimly in view. It is not difficult to prove it.
G.W.H. In the world to come both creation and creature will enjoy the blessing of life.
F.E.R. It is then that every promise of God will be made good, "In thee shall all families of the earth be blessed". What has come to pass now in principle will come to pass in a literal way.
J.T. The present application would be in Galatians.
F.E.R. So too in this chapter, Christ has not yet come out in the character of this chapter in manifest quickening power, but He is known to us in that light; at the present time the great point is knowledge. All our blessing lies in the region of knowledge.
J.S.A. And that knowledge is by the Spirit.
W.M. It is eternal life to know Him.
F.E.R. You cannot refer to any christian blessing but what lies in the sphere of knowledge. It will not always be so. Knowledge will not form such an element in the world to come, when things become manifest, Israel for instance will be manifestly blessed in Him.
J.T. The Lord did not affect things publicly at all. He left things as He found them pretty much.
F.E.R. And christianity has not done it.
J.T. When He went into heaven He was concealed and all depended after that on what came out of heaven.
F.E.R. You do not get the conditions of the world very much changed in christianity. Slaves were left where they were. Christianity did not even touch the government of the world. It left things where they were; but the Spirit brought in knowledge, and we can well understand that the first element of knowledge is the Son of God in
life-giving power. Of course it would be a poor thing if all was not to be made manifest some day.
W.M. Do you think that principle is referred to in the epistle of John where it says, "ye know all things"?
F.E.R. There it is connected with the unction, "ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him". That is the character of christian blessing. As to eternal life the scripture says, "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent". So with Paul, the thought with him was, "That I may know him".
R.S.S. You said on one occasion the last thing we would care to give up is our knowledge of God.
F.E.R. If we gave it up we would give up everything.
W.L.P. Some look upon knowledge as the knowledge of doctrine.
F.E.R. I do not think knowledge of doctrine is much good. I do not think anybody is very much affected by doctrine. We hold doctrine and are very particular about it, but what a man is affected by is the knowledge of God.
W.M. And no man can teach that to another.
F.E.R. The truth is that we have been wakened up out of a world of death by the Son of God, to bring us into a world according to Himself.
J.S.A. And such transformation as there is is not in the outward circumstances but in the renewing of a man's mind.
J.T. It does not propose to alter our circumstances at all.
F.E.R. No, the outward man remains and perishes, but the inward man is renewed day by day. And there is another thing connected with that, and that is the renewing goes on while we look not at the things that are seen, but at the things that are unseen and eternal.
J.T. I have often thought of the Psalm 23 in that connection. The psalmist is perfectly secure, happy and
contented, although his outward circumstances are not at all changed. The enemy was there and the wilderness was there and the valley of the shadow of death, but he was content and secure and happy.
F.E.R. The truth is that we are all in the wilderness, and the wilderness is really, on one hand, the scene where you meet the witness of death, because in the wilderness there is no burial, but there is death. Men and creatures perish; that is where we are; but the point is that while we are in the wilderness the Son of God is known to us, and in that knowledge we can enter into the land of promise. How do we enter into the land of promise? Israel entered into it literally by going through Jordan. I do not think there is any doubt that we enter into it in the knowledge of the Son of God in life-giving power. That is in capability to carry out all the will of God. We pass through Jordan, we are in the fellowship of the death of Christ, and in the knowledge of the Son of God we enter the land of promise.
W.M. And do you think the sixth chapter connects you with that, that God brings you into a region of satisfaction?
F.E.R. I think the point in the sixth chapter is the Son of man. Christ is known in another light; as the sustenance of the soul. You get appropriation there, Christ is appropriated as the sustenance of the soul.
W.M. And that, too, is anticipative of the world to come.
F.E.R. I think so, because He says, "and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world". Meanwhile He is appropriated as living bread, "my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he which cometh" (it is characteristic) "down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world". You get Christ in the chapter as Prophet, Priest and King. He is incarnate; the living bread from heaven. He has become incarnate to get close to man. He gives His flesh for the life of the world. By grace He comes into our condition, accomplishes redemption, and then ascends
up where He was before, that is, as Priest. In the chapter He goes up into a mountain alone. It is in that way that Christ is presented as sustenance to the soul. He expresses to us the grace of heaven, and all brought within the reach of our appropriation. All that heaven could devise.
G.R. In connection with that, where would "Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood" come in?
F.E.R. That is a great part of it. The effect of that is that you get deliverance.
J.T. The disciples had a very meagre idea of what was there, because when the Lord proposes to feed the multitude they say, "There is a lad here, which hath five barley loaves, and two small fishes: but what are they among so many?" They had no conception of what was there in Christ.
F.E.R. But they had the five loaves and two fishes. They had something, though it was small, and it is extremely interesting that the Lord takes up what they had.
Rem. It was sufficient for them up to that time.
J.T. He made it go a long way.
F.E.R. People had a certain something until Christ came; five loaves and two fishes; they had a certain knowledge of God, but when Christ came it was multiplied infinitely. There was enough and to spare.
W.M. A sort of expansion of the Old Testament.
J.A. Enough grace presently to bring in every tribe of Israel.
F.E.R. It is a wonderful thing, that all the grace that heaven could devise is brought within the reach of man's appropriation. That is the bread, the sustenance of man's soul. Some one was alluding to the tree of life at the beginning, when man was created he had the tree of life. I take it the teaching is, that even then man was in a sense dependent. Man was not a god. God does not want a tree of life. Hereafter in the paradise of God there is a tree of life. It shows that life in the creature is ever dependent. I am sure that people need their constitutions built up
spiritually. And to get the constitution built up you must have good food.
J.T. And there is plenty of good food.
W.M. There is bread and water.
F.E.R. "He that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst". John does not in the gospel give you the conditions of life. You get that in. the epistle. The gospel is taken up with the kind of person who lives, and the way in which the constitution is built up. A child newly born is born into the conditions of life; that is rule, atmosphere and light; but you do all you can to build up the child's constitution by food. Now that is what you get here in these chapters. You are alive in the fifth chapter and in the sixth chapter your spiritual constitution is built up by suitable food. The food is there for your appropriation.
W.M. Would you say the seventh chapter gives you the heavenly influences that flow from the saints having a good constitution?
F.E.R. The seventh chapter gives you the provision for Christ for the present moment, He is glorified above. You have the Son of God in life-giving power, and the Son of man a sustenance to the soul, and Jesus glorified and the gift of the Spirit. That is the light in which Christ is known to us at the present time and we are witnesses to Him. If anybody were to ask how we live (you cannot live without food), the answer I would give is, I live by Christ. "He that eateth me, even be shall live by me".
J.T. You do not live by your business nor family nor any comforts here.
J.T. It makes a person wonderfully independent of what is here.
G.W.H. I suppose that just as Joseph's brethren came to him for corn, so we have to come to Christ.
F.E.R. Yes, but they came from Canaan to Egypt; we have not to do that. The bread is come to us. The hungry multitude had not to seek Christ. He was there. So in that
way Christ has placed Himself within the reach of our appropriation. He has become a Man to bring Himself near to us; He has entered into death so that we might appropriate His death; and He has ascended up on high in order that He might serve us as Priest.
J.S.A. And the soul who apprehends and dwells upon Christ as set out in those conditions is built up.
R.S.S. Would exercise come in in connection with the discernment of good and evil.
F.E.R. I think so. You want to be fed with milk in the first instance, and solid food in due time.
W.M. It was said of Christ prophetically, "Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good".
J.T. The bread of God is brought within our reach here, but it is not connected with the present system. We have to leave that in a sense.
F.E.R. You get the death of Christ for that, "He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him".
J.T. I was alluding to Jacob leaving Canaan. If he stayed there he would have died like anyone else.
F.E.R. The Lord has provided an outlet for us. We appropriate Christ's death in order to get deliverance from the world. The apostle says, "I am crucified with Christ; nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me". The people wanted to make Christ a king. They acknowledged He was a prophet, but He would not be made a king. He goes into the mountain alone. We have not the King, but the Prophet and the Priest. He has become Man to be to us the great Prophet and He has gone up on high to be the Priest. Moses said, "The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me". He became Man to that end. We get the same thought in the epistle to the Hebrews, God has spoken to us in these last days by His Son. He has died in order to accomplish righteousness, and has gone up on high as the great Priest.
R.S.S. In chapter 5 we have the apprehension of Christ as Son of God, and in the sixth appropriation.
F.E.R. There is no appropriation in chapter 5. We do not appropriate the Son of God. In chapter 5 He has ability to deal with the entire domain of death. It is a blessed thing to carry on the thought until He quickens all things.
W.L.P. That shows how necessary it is to know Him in all these characters.
F.E.R. If you put good food before a child the child naturally appropriates it and grows, and is formed by it. We are very careful with our children to provide proper food so that the constitution may be built up, and that is what has been provided for us in Christ. Suitable food has been placed within our appropriation that we may eat it and live by it.
J.K. You do not think that doctrine is food?
F.E.R. No, I think that gives you intelligence, but nothing is food save the living bread from heaven. I think an incarnate Christ crucified and ascended, is food.
J.T. What is the use of doctrine?
F.E.R. In a general way doctrine is to show you what you have, so that the thing may be put into definite shape in your mind, but that is not food. I attend to doctrine, because I want to have divine things in their proper shape, but food is dependent on the appropriation of Christ as brought within your reach.
R.S.S. Is it through affection we appropriate Christ?
F.E.R. I believe it is by the Spirit.
R.S.S. Does affection come in?
F.E.R. I think it promotes affection.
J.T. Would you say you appropriate what you need?
F.E.R. I appropriate food suitable. How thankful I am that Christ became a Man; that He died; that He is risen again, and gone up on high to intercede for me. Everybody ought to say so, and feel it.
R.S.S. Is affection a proof that you have appropriated Christ? Mary Magdalene has been used as a figure of one who appropriated Christ.
F.E.R. I think so; and Mary of Bethany. She appropriated, and affection followed it.
R.S.S. She said they have taken away my Lord. She looked upon Him as her own, and we ought to look upon Him in the same way.
F.E.R. Yes, because everything He did was on our account.
G.W.H. What part does exercise play in this? Does it correspond to digestion?
F.E.R. I think it is indicated by the condition of the people at the beginning of the chapter. It was a hungry multitude; they felt they were in the wilderness; no bread, and a land of drought.
G.W.H. That led them to appropriate what was provided for them?
F.E.R. The grace of Christ provided food and they appropriated the food that grace provided. We are very unwise if we do not appropriate. People nowadays try to live by light reading, religious stories, and some try to live by hymn singing. Hymns may be a snare in the present day. The great point is to live by Christ.
J.T. To sit down, as it were, quietly and contemplate the Lord?
F.E.R. Meditate and assimilate and digest. It is really food that Christ has become on our account, digested into the life of our being. That is what food is, I take it. Take as much food as you will, it is only what you digest that nourishes you. So in divine things, it is not merely reading an immense amount of Scripture, it is what you digest that furnishes nourishment.
W.M. I suppose the use of ministry is to direct people's attention to all that is for them, but it can effect nothing in them.
J.T. It can locate the food for them?
G.W.H. What is really effected is by the Spirit.
F.E.R. All; you cannot get anything except by the Spirit.
W.M. I suppose, however, saints could hardly get along without ministry?
F.E.R. I have been struck with regard to that by 1 Corinthians. There are two points: you have the temple of God and the Christ. I do not know whether you know that in natural things the general idea is that light is ether, that is, an exceedingly intangible kind of fluid; and the ether is set in vibration by the sun. I think that is what I see in Corinthians. The temple is where the oracles of God are, they are the ether. Then the body of Christ (where the gifts are) comes in; and thus the ether is set in motion. So you get the light and the gifts, and the light set in motion, so that it reaches people. Hence, gifts and ministry are important, as giving an impulse to the light.
T.H. Is teaching food, as the Lord said to Peter, "Feed my sheep"?
F.E.R. There it is more looking after them.
T.H. But it comes from Christ by another to me.
G.R. Could you give us a word on chapter 7?
F.E.R. I think chapter 7 completes all. It shows the position Christ has taken for the moment. Christ is risen and the Spirit is given, and out of the belly of the believer flow rivers of living water. You have not the feast of tabernacles yet, but out of the belly of the believer the living waters flow. What comes out in chapter 7 depends on chapters 5 and 6. If people do not know something about chapters 5 and 6, they will not understand much about chapter 7. We have come to the true feast of tabernacles, Jesus glorified.
W.M. It helps us when we see that the point of the chapter is what Christ is Himself, and not so much what He is for the saints.
F.E.R. It is the apprehension of what Christ is Himself.
John 10:1 - 30
R.S.S. We left off yesterday with Christ glorified and the Spirit coming consequent on that. Why was it that the Spirit could not come until Christ was glorified?
F.E.R. Because, I think that Jesus glorified is a starting point, the point of departure in the accomplishment of God's purposes.
G.R. Is it that He must Himself, as in the character of Head, be in the place purposed for man?
F.E.R. I think so. "Thou hast made him to rule over the works of thy hands". "We see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, ... crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man". Everything had to come in under the Son of man, and therefore Jesus must be glorified to be in the place of supremacy above all. Not only above things on earth, but above things in heaven. He must be glorified before the Spirit could be given, and the Spirit is come to subdue everything. You have not the position until Jesus is glorified. Then the Spirit of God subdues everything according to the position.
R.S.S. I see the point more clearly than before, that He is now the beginning of everything. I suppose what had gone before was really laying the foundation for it.
F.E.R. Quite so, but the starting point is Jesus glorified. That is according to Psalm 8, "thou hast put all things under his feet". So, too, in Ephesians, He "gave him to be the head over all things to the church". He is set in the place of 'Head over all things', and is given as such to the church.
R.S.S. It is then all in marked contrast with what we get in the transfiguration, that is, from there the Lord really went down to the cross.
F.E.R. Christ has gone up now in the value of redemption, so that everything can be taken up according to God's glory, and subdued to Christ.
F.C. So that the Spirit given is the Spirit of another Man.
G.R. Is it not also necessary that He should be completely apart from the present order of things so that the Spirit coming from there would lead us apart from it too?
F.E.R. Jesus glorified is really what brings in the feast of tabernacles. The feast of tabernacles typically presented the union of heaven and earth; you could not get the bond of union except in Christ. In the beginning God made the heaven and the earth, but there was not union in that sense, or at all events, communion. This must be brought about in a Man.
G.R. How do you connect the heavens with the feast of tabernacles?
F.E.R. The eighth day of the feast brings in the communion of heaven and earth -- the eternal and the temporal.
W.M. Do you look upon the Spirit as the link?
F.E.R. I look upon Christ as really being the point or centre; the Spirit brings witness of the glory of Christ and subdues everything, but really the bond between heaven and earth is Christ.
G.R. The angels ascending and descending on the Son of man.
F.E.R. So the Lord speaks of Himself in the third chapter, "no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven".
G.W.H. Would you say the effect of the report of the Spirit of Christ glorified is to bring the earth under the influence of heaven?
F.E.R. As a matter of fact the earth always has been under the influence of heaven.
F.C. The last verse of the first chapter of John gives that.
F.E.R. Quite so. Now in these chapters, 8, 9 and 10, we have got a different subject. Up to the seventh chapter the subject in the main is life. We saw that in the third chapter, in which we have the testimony. In the fourth chapter the Spirit is in the believer as a well of water. Then in the fifth and sixth chapters we have Christ, in relation to life. He is the Son of God in quickening power and the living bread come down from heaven that man may eat, and live by Him. The subject of all these chapters is life, but chapters eight to ten give us light, and the effect of light is to change the appearance of everything down here. There are two effects which light has: one is, it exposes, and the other, it enlightens. And when you get things exposed, and on the other hand enlightenment, everything is changed, and the change is seen in the chapter we read. The change which was coming in is expressed by the Lord in a few words, "I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind". Evidently if those who do not see are made to see, and those who see are made blind, a revolution is produced down here.
G.R. What is the force of the term, "the light of life"?
F.E.R. I think that is what was seen in Christ morally, "he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life". In following Christ they had the light of life in Him.
G.R. The great contrast to commandments and ordinances.
F.E.R. You can see the application of the change we spoke of in the world. The gentile was born blind but has been enlightened. On the other hand the Jew professed to see, and in a sense did see, but has been made blind. That has brought about a revolution, simply by the coming in of light. The light tested everything. The Jew was tested in the eighth chapter and his true character brought out, but in the ninth chapter a man born blind is
made to see. He apprehends the true character of things -- so that everything is revolutionised.
R.S.S. So that is the significance of the incident at the beginning of the eighth chapter, the woman taken in sin.
F.E.R. Yes, the Lord proved Himself to be the light of the world. There was no doubt about the sin of the woman, but the Pharisees were also exposed.
G.W.H. So light exposes that which is evil and enlightens those whose eyes have been opened.
F.E.R. That was the effect of the light that had come into the world; it was the test of everything.
G.W.H. The end of it was to direct the attention to the source of the light, would you say?
F.E.R. To my mind it is a necessary consequence of the light coming in. The Jew expected Messiah, but the Messiah came as light, and the consequence was that the condition of the Jew was exposed.
G.R. So that where there was enlightenment they were drawn to Christ, but where there was exposure they went away from Him.
F.E.R. There is a fearful exposure in the eighth chapter. The Jews were murderers and liars in principle and spirit. They were the children of the devil. They were perfectly tested by the presence of God, "Before Abraham was, I am". Not only was Messiah there, but God was there.
R.S.S. That is what you get in the fourth verse of the first chapter, "In him was life; and the life was the light of men".
F.E.R. The practical effect is to put the Lord outside of what was there. That comes out at the end of the chapter, where they tried to kill Him.
F.C. In the tenth chapter He leads His own outside.
F.E.R. Yes. The fact is that when Christ came, He came not to establish or confirm things that existed, but to bring in entirely new things. I do not think the Jew ever thought much more than that Christ would confirm all that was there, would confer honour on the nation;
but He did not come in to that end. His coming in was the beginning of everything. It seems to me it could not be otherwise.
W.M. They used the Old Testament against Him, not seeing that He was establishing a new order of things.
F.C. Is it not important in speaking of the Jew to have in our minds that he represented man in the flesh?
F.E.R. Quite so, the fig-tree.
G.W.H. I suppose in His coming the whole Jewish system was to be judged. If He had come to patch it up or improve it, it would have been all right with them.
F.E.R. There was nothing to improve or patch up.
G.W.H. That is what John the baptist meant when he said, "the axe is laid unto the root of the trees".
F.E.R. The tree had been tested long enough, digged about and dunged, and there was no fruit; and it was now to be cut down and cast into the fire. I think it is very important to see that, when Christ comes in, of necessity He is the beginning of the creation of God. Everything must take its start in Christ. You may say that it is difficult to fit this in with God's previous dealings but of necessity He must be the starting point.
Ques. Is that the meaning of the scripture that in all things He might have the pre-eminence?
F.E.R. Whatever there might have been before, when the Son of God comes in, of necessity He must be the starting-point. Up to that point God had been gathering a company to be associated with Christ in heaven. Then the Jew had been brought provisionally into certain blessings on earth according to the promises of God, but the provisional dealings of God in regard of the Jew came to an end because the state of the Jew was exposed. God had served His purpose, and now the Son of God becomes the starting-point. He must be the first to rise from the dead, and in resurrection He is the beginning.
Ques. Is it not in that way the starting-point for Israel?
F.E.R. Yes, but then Israel does not come in first. Israel had a place, and it is in connection with Israel you
get the thought of sonship first applied. Israel was brought into the place of God's son, but did not answer to it. The church then comes in, and the entire heavenly company, the twenty-four elders, take priority of Israel. Israel comes in eventually. Provisionally it had the first place in the dealings of God, but it has lost its place. It will come in in its own proper place.
A.H.E. Is Hebrews 11 a company prepared for heaven?
A.H.E. Christ says, "I am the true vine", then the people of Israel is the spurious vine.
F.E.R. He becomes the starting-point of everything. God began with Israel in dispensational dealings, but He took them up provisionally for there were other things in the mind of God, and they were to have pre-eminence over Israel. So in the Hebrews you get the general assembly and church of the first-born which are written in heaven, and God the Judge of all, and the spirits of just men made perfect.
Ques. What would you say that the Lord meant by that expression, "Before Abraham was, I am"?
F.E.R. It means He was Jehovah. You cannot understand the truth of the eighth chapter unless you see that the Jews were tested by God Himself. Hence in the chapter their condition comes out in the most terrible and naked way.
G.R. Really the fulfilment of Isaiah 50 "Wherefore, when I came, was there no man?"
F.E.R. Exactly. So, "Ye are from beneath; I am from above". He says, "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him". The truth was that they came in the character of their father.
Ques. Would you say man's heart was not fully exposed until the true light came?
F.E.R. Until God came. The fact is, people do not know what a terrible thing lawlessness is. It is bound to
come out in the way of hatred, and hatred comes out in the way of murder.
F.C. You mean the exercise of the human will.
F.E.R. Yes, Adam did not commit murder, but Cain did. In him you get hatred, the effect of lawlessness.
W.M. So in the eighth chapter you have lawlessness and in the ninth chapter attachment.
F.E.R. You have, but then the eyes of the blind man had been opened by Christ to apprehend the whole state of things down here. The state of things had been exposed in the eighth chapter, but in the ninth chapter the blind man apprehends it. The practical result is that he finds himself outside of it all, as Christ is outside of it. Those provisional dealings of God in connection with Israel were all over. Israel is rejected. They were liars and murderers. Then the Lord shows in the tenth chapter what He was doing. He was leading out the sheep, and He has other sheep and them also He must bring, and there would be one flock and one Shepherd, outside of that order of things with which God had been dealing. The point of it all is that Christ is the starting-point.
W.M. I suppose in that way the blind man overcomes the world by having his eyes opened to the Sun of another world.
F.E.R. Really he is excommunicated; they cast him out.
W.M. Do you think that in these chapters it is not so much the blessing of saints that is in view as the present effect of Christ having come into the world?
F.E.R. Yes, it is the moral effect. Christ is now outside of it. He left it in death. The blind man is outside; but in the tenth chapter the Shepherd is the beginning and everything takes character from the Shepherd. We have not to do with judaism but with Christ. He says: "I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly". The Jew will come in, in due time, but God has other purposes to fulfil. What we see in christendom is that it has gone back to the idea of a fold. There had been a fold, and what few sheep there were had been
kept in it, but the time for an enclosure is over now. You get the Roman Catholic and Presbyterian and Wesleyan and many other folds now; they have all set to work to make enclosures where, according to their idea, the sheep are safe. They are not a bit safe. There are plenty of wolves in these folds, They can get in readily enough.
W.M. There is a kind of rivalry among the folds as to which is best.
F.E.R. Yes, but they are all useless, They do not keep the wolf out. The wolf of bad doctrine gets into these folds. They are no security for the sheep. They are better outside. I would not care to be in any one of the folds.
W.M. But there is not any fold now in reality, but simply a flock.
F.E.R. Exactly, because Christ has come in. He says, "I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture". Well, if the sheep are saved and go in and out and find pasture they do not want a fold; they are saved. They do not fear the wolf.
G.R. In christianity everything is unfolded in a Person; it is not a question of doctrines and ordinances, though you have both.
F.E.R. And you do not want a fold.
W.M. The entering in is entering in to God, I suppose.
F.E.R. That is the way I understand it; you enter in by Christ into the enjoyment of God. Christ is the way into the knowledge of God, because He came out to reveal God. He has declared God. In the knowledge of God we are saved and go in and out and find pasture. Salvation, liberty and pasture are all in the knowledge of God.
W.M. No one could reveal the Father but the Son.
G.W.H. That is why He said, "by me".
F.E.R. Exactly, "by me if any man", It does not matter who. It is on the very largest possible ground, "if any man".
W.M. That is, by Him instrumentally.
F.E.R. Through Him we both have access by one
Spirit to the Father. Any one who ignores Christ, who has come out to declare God, could not possibly enter in.
J.A. Would you explain the second verse.
F.E.R. Christ entered into the fold, that is, into the Jewish order of things in order to lead the sheep out.
W.M. And "to him the porter openeth".
G.W.H. It has been said that under the Jewish order you have a circumference without a centre, but in christianity you have a centre without a circumference. Is that true?
F.E.R. The Jewish order was an enclosure, but there was no centre in it. In christianity you have no enclosure. If by the circumference you mean an enclosure, I think it is all right.
Ques. What is the significance of "To him the porter openeth"? Does it mean that He had a perfect right to enter in?
F.E.R. I think it is that Christ entered in legitimately and the porter gave Him access to the sheep.
W.M. He recognised His right to enter.
F.C. Would you connect it with being baptised in Jordan and identifying Himself with the remnant?
F.E.R. I would rather attach a moral idea to it, that is, that the Lord found a way of approach to the sheep.
G.W.H. Speaking of no one having access to the Father but by Christ, does that give light on the verse in John 14, "no man cometh unto the Father, but by me"?
F.E.R. No one knows anything about the Father but by the Son. It is only by the appreciation of Christ that any one could approach the Father. We would be in the dark in regard of God except by Christ. Men may speculate and have notions, but there is nothing that can assume to be a revelation except Christ.
R.S.S. It is very striking that in the gospel of John you have so much about divine Persons, not only Christ but the Father and also the Spirit.
F.E.R. Because John is the backbone of all the gospels, for the reason that it is the revelation of God. In John we
do not see Christ looked at officially as in Matthew and Luke; it is not Christ presented in that light, but the Son revealing the Father and the Father coming out in the Son. So the gospel is the revelation of God in the fullest sense.
W.M. I suppose that is the reason you do not get forgiveness spoken of in John.
G.W.H. Would you say the knowledge of divine Persons is the greatest thing that can be presented to man? Is it greater than the knowledge of divine things?
F.E.R. But then divine things take their character from divine Persons. That is what you get here. The sheep take their character from the Shepherd. You do not get that in this world. Sheep are not like the shepherd. "I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father". They have taken their character from the Shepherd. No one ever heard of such a flock as that.
R.S.S. In the gospel of John we get, "these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God". I think from what has been said we can see how Christ comes out as the Son of God, but how does He come out as the Messiah in John?
F.E.R. That comes out remarkably. You remember what the woman of Samaria said in the fourth chapter, "I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things". Then the Lord said, "I that speak unto thee am he".
R.S.S. But how does He come out as the Messiah?
F.E.R. Because He is the anointed Man who communicates the Spirit.
G.R. Then does not the expression the good Shepherd involve that?
F.E.R. He is the Shepherd of the sheep. He was the Messiah; the literal meaning of Messiah is "the anointed". In chapter 1, verse 41 Andrew says to Peter, "we have found the Messias"; that is what Andrew felt, and he
brought him to Jesus, and when Jesus beheld him He said, "Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone". Then afterwards Nathanael says, "thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel", recognizing Him according to the second Psalm. Then the woman of Samaria hailed Him as the Christ. He was the anointed Man and could communicate the Spirit. That is what I understand by Messiah, but then He was the Son of God -- the Son who revealed the Father. We get all the light of God brought out, in which man can live.
R.S.S. In connection with what you said a moment ago that the Messiah is the anointed Man who communicates the Spirit; that would be in keeping with what John said, speaking of Christ, "He shall baptise you with the Holy Spirit". The meaning of the word Messiah is the anointed one, and in a certain sense we become anointed ones.
F.E.R. So the apostle says in 1 Corinthians 12, "so also is the Christ". You have the Christ down here, in the saints. The saints are the Christ, not personally of course, but by being anointed.
W.M. I suppose that everything indicated by God in connection with Israel is maintained spiritually in the church.
F.E.R. But now you have the true flock. Israel was a flock and Moses was the shepherd, then Moses died and Joshua was the shepherd. Then Joshua died and for a long time they had no shepherd. Then David came, and he died, and Solomon did not prove much of a shepherd. And when the Lord came the people were left like sheep without a shepherd. Now what has come to pass is this, the Shepherd has come in, and there is a flock which takes its character from the Shepherd, and that flock is not provisional at all. It is a flock which, though on earth, in its proper character belongs to heaven.
G.R. Do you connect with that Jacob's blessing on Joseph, "from thence is the shepherd, the stone of Israel"?
F.E.R. Christ will be that in regard of Israel, but in the
meantime He has come out as the good Shepherd, having a flock which is according to Himself.
Ques. Is that the meaning of Hebrews 13, that great Shepherd of the sheep?
G.R. The Lord came really of the tribe of Judah and it was in blessing Joseph that Jacob said, "from thence is the shepherd, the stone of Israel". Is that looking at Joseph as a typical person in his being rejected?
F.E.R. It may be. The genealogy belongs to Judah.
W.M. Have you any idea why all these things are indicated in Israel first and then taken up vitally in Christ afterwards?
F.E.R. I think it is on the principle, first the natural then the spiritual.
G.R. Does it not show what has been said so often of late, that nothing fails in God's hands?
F.E.R. Now the point is you do not get a provisional flock, but you have the real thing. What you get in chapter ten is not a kind of fold consequent on the failure of Israel, but a flock that is according to the Shepherd. That is what characterises the present order.
W.M. Evil is so thoroughly exposed by the knowledge of God.
F.E.R. Exactly. Since one has had grace to leave the fold one has been a great deal safer than in the fold.
G.R. The thought is very precious that the flock takes character from the Shepherd. You get the thought of intimacy.
F.E.R. I think so, but it all lies in nature. They are cognate. It is kindred, morally.
W.M. I suppose it is morally kindred to the passage, "be that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one".
R.S.S. Also the passage in Matthew 16, "upon this rock I will build my church".
F.E.R. They are stones and upon this rock I will build My assembly. So Peter takes it up in 1 Peter 2, "To
whom coming, as unto a living stone ... Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house". You are kindred to the Living Stone. People have made a mistake about priesthood. A great proportion of christians in the world think that they are called to be priests, but none was ever called to be a priest except Aaron and Christ. Aaron's sons were not called to be priests. Christians are not called to be priests. They are priests like the sons of Aaron on account of their kindred to Aaron. We are priests as being kindred to Christ. He is the Living Stone and coming to Him as unto a Living Stone we are built up living stones.
G.R. One can see why the subject of life comes out first and then light. If there is to be kindred there must be life.
F.E.R. Exactly. So you could not get the thought of the flock without life.
W.M. So the sheep live in the light of God.
F.E.R. But also in the life of Christ.
G.W.H. We are the same stock and kind; that is what is meant by 1 Corinthians 1:30, "But of him are ye in Christ Jesus".
W.M. In connection with this passage, the Lord was not speaking to the sheep; He was not comforting them.
F.E.R. No, only about them; but it is a most important point to apprehend that whatever provisional dealings there may have been up to the coming of Christ, Christ is real starting-point of everything, of God's universe.
G.W.H. Speaking of the Shepherd, in Psalm 22 I suppose you get the good Shepherd giving His life for the sheep, and then in Psalm 23 the great Shepherd who takes care of the sheep.
F.E.R. Yes. Chapters 11 and 12 of John are comparatively simple, for they are the testimony which God saw fit should be rendered to Christ previous to His suffering; that is, as Son of God, King of Israel and Son of man.
You get a witness to Him in all three aspects. The resurrection of Lazarus was witness to His glory as Son of God. Then in riding into Jerusalem He is saluted as King, and then the Greeks come up, which becomes the occasion of the Lord referring it to Himself as Son of man. These were witnesses which God gave to Christ when He was on the point of being offered.
G.R. It is important that we should be instructed as to who the Shepherd is. These two chapters bring it out. We hear His voice in chapter 10 and are separated by it; then these two chapters unfold to us who He is.
F.E.R. There is a witness borne to Him in chapters 5 and 6. In chapters 5 and 6 we see the Son of God and Son of man but not the King of Israel. He would not be made King. What we have in the present time is not exactly the King, but we have the Son of God and Son of man; but when witness is borne to Him in chapters 11 and 12, we get the Son of God, the Son of man and the King.
G.R. And as the King of Israel when He comes out, that is only temporary, but He is Son of man for ever.
F.E.R. But then John has in view the world to come. John does not look at eternal things in the gospel. So, too, in the epistle you get no teaching about eternal things. At the end of the Revelation we are carried by the Spirit of God to the final issue, but the Spirit in Scripture does not deal in general with eternal things. There are only about six verses that refer to anything beyond the world to come. The testimony of christianity is to the glory of God in the present creation. God will take care of eternal things, but I am sure our minds are not suited now to take in eternal things, I mean things beyond the world to come.
John 14:1 - 31
W.M. Do these chapters begin a new section of the gospel?
F.E.R. I think so. They are all connected with Christ leaving the world and the Comforter coming. We are brought in chapter 10 to the thought of the company. At all events a flock, which is near akin to a company. Down to chapter 10 everything is individual, for the subject is life. Now in these chapters we get a point further, and that is how the flock would be here in testimony for Christ. The Lord brings out the conditions under which they would be here. The thoughts of God are intimately bound up with testimony. If God took up Israel, the point was that Israel should be a testimony. It was not simply for their sakes that He took them up. All the world should have got the benefit of Israel. The world should have seen the blessedness of the people whose God is Jehovah. The gentiles should have been in a position to bless God on account of Israel.
A.H.E. But the name of God was blasphemed among the gentiles through the inconsistency of Israel.
F.E.R. Exactly, they were a false testimony and so the Lord speaks of Himself in contrast in the Revelation, I am "the faithful and true witness". Now in John's gospel Christ was about to leave, so the flock was to be here in testimony. Hence in chapter 13 they are put under obligation to one another. Then in chapter 14 we have the advent of the Comforter, for the disciples were not capable of supporting themselves. Then the conditions of testimony are seen in chapters 15 and 16. Chapter 15 gives abiding in Him and fruit-bearing, and in chapter 16 there is intelligence in Christ's things by the Spirit. These were the conditions. The same apply to us and qualify us to be here in testimony for Christ. We bring forth fruit
that our fruit might abide, and have intelligence by the Spirit in the things of Christ. As the apostle prays in Ephesians 3, That ye "May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; and to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God". The thought in that prayer undoubtedly is testimony, the saints being fitted to be here in testimony to God.
W.M. Chapter 13 presents our obligations one to another, that we might be able to refresh one another.
F.E.R. One thing connected with that is that the traitor becomes manifest. I have no doubt if we were more really true to our obligations one to another, that the unfaithful would be more manifest. They would resent feet washing.
R.S.S. I am sure that is very important. It is a thing in which we fail greatly.
F.E.R. A great many things pass current among us because there is not enough recognition of our obligation to one another. If we were more faithful to one another a good deal would be exposed which now passes.
R.S.S. On the other hand, a good deal never would be allowed to be there. It would be judged at once.
W.M. People are afraid of one another instead of loving one another.
F.E.R. It is a point of the last moment to accept the obligation under which Christ has placed us to one another and to carry it out, too.
G.W.H. Faithfulness to one another is really a mark of love, is it not?
F.E.R. I think so. The Lord says, "If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet".
R.S.S. And then in the end of the chapter He gives them a new commandment.
F.E.R. That is in the light of Jesus glorified. The darkest night leads to the brightest day. In the Revelation the harlot rides the beast, and then there is the marriage
of the Lamb's wife. So here, the darkest night was the betrayal of the Lord, but it gives way to the brightest day, "Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him". And it is in the light of that day we are to love one another. The traitor was a burden. His absence was a relief. The washing of one another's feet is a matter of great importance.
W.M. You do not mean removing defilement exactly.
F.E.R. It has that effect. The point is the way you set to work to do it. It is not exactly your object to remove defilement. We wash one another's feet because we are under obligation to serve one another. It is service. One of the qualifications for a widow to be taken into the number was that she had washed the saints' feet. She did not set herself to work to correct the saints, but to refresh them.
W.M. And in the act of refreshment the defilement goes.
F.E.R. You get revived and you throw defilement off.
J.S.A. I suppose if the desire of the Spirit were present in the heart, the actual service might be almost unconscious.
G.W.H. The way you would wash one's feet would be to minister Christ.
F.E.R. I think so. It would be better that Christ should be the subject when we are together instead of the weather and the crops and business and other details. It is much easier to talk about the things of the world than to talk about Christ, but we do not wash one another's feet by it.
A.H.E. I suppose that depends on what occupies the heart, "out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh".
G.R. What would be the force of that expression, "If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me"?
F.E.R. It is essential that Christ should wash us, but He may carry out the service mediately. He puts us under obligation to one another. It is His service, but it is done mediately. We do as He has done to us. What we carry out to one another is the service of Christ.
G.R. I was thinking more of the words, "with me".
F.E.R. People will not have part with Him unless they come under the service. They will drop down into a kind of worldly christianity instead of having part with Christ.
G.W.H. Do you mean in the enjoyment of the Father's love?
F.E.R. I think outside of the course of things down here -- we often live in them, but Christ does not.
G.W.H. In chapter 12 He has been speaking of leaving the world.
F.E.R. He has gone to the Father and there He lives. We get the thought in Colossians, "If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God". That life is where Christ is.
W.M. And by the washing of the feet we are kept in the practical enjoyment of that life. Christ is our life.
F.E.R. I think you are maintained in freshness.
J.K. Feet-washing should be then a continual thing.
F.E.R. The mind of the Lord was to put the disciples under obligation to one another.
W.M. So that He washes our feet indirectly, not directly.
W.L.P. Of course that would take in more than defilement.
F.E.R. People get affected and defiled by the influences here. The influences of the world have a depressing effect spiritually.
J.S.A. That makes feet-washing a present necessity.
F.E.R. Yes, and I think we might do much more for one another than we carry out.
J.S.A. And that is why I referred to the importance of being in the spirit of it.
R.S.S. Would Timothy be a sample of this when Paul says, "I have no man like-minded, who will naturally care for your state"?
F.E.R. If we all cared for one another's state we would wash one another's feet.
W.M. And Philemon again, "the bowels of the saints are refreshed by thee, brother". He washed the saints' feet.
R.S.S. I think we have had the thought that this only comes in when a person gets into a bad state, and it manifests itself.
F.E.R. I doubt if that is exactly the idea. The point of the chapter is to put us under obligation to one another. He goes on to say, "he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me".
W.M. How do you connect the exposure of Judas with feet-washing.
F.E.R. It came out immediately afterwards. What you will certainly find is that people who are unfaithful would not bear feet-washing. It is undoubtedly a test.
J.K. You would not say that feet-washing was going around finding fault with saints.
F.E.R. That is not the idea. Feet-washing is service. It was much better understood in eastern countries. For instance, the woman in Simon's house in Luke 7 washed the Lord's feet. She did not find fault with the Lord. It was attention and service.
J.S.A. It would be in the opposite direction to finding fault.
A.H.E. It was affection to her blessed Lord that prompted the woman.
Ques. Would you say it is removing the faults without saying anything about them?
F.E.R. I know as well as possible that if you get revived in soul you get free from the contaminations of the world. People get more or less in mind under the influence of the world, but if revived they throw off the defilement.
W.M. Even in natural things if a man is tired and gets his feet washed he walks better.
J.K. How about Psalm 23, "He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness"?
F.E.R. That is very near akin to it. In John 14 we get the Comforter coming, that is a very important point, for the Lord knew that the disciples were not fit to be left here alone without support. Therefore the Comforter was to abide with them for ever, the Spirit of truth.
W.M. I suppose the word 'Comforter' is more in the sense of advocate who would take up the care of the saints.
F.E.R. Christ had been a Comforter to them for He speaks of "another" Comforter. All the time He was here He maintained them, but now He would ask for another Comforter, who was the Spirit of truth; so that we have a security for the maintenance of the truth. It would be a sorry thing if the truth were dependent upon saints.
W.M. The truth was maintained when Christ was here. Now the Spirit is the truth.
F.E.R. I do not think the Scripture would be security for the maintenance of the truth. People would contravene the letter and twist it as they like. The real security is the Spirit. The Scriptures in themselves would not have served the purpose, because the Scriptures never can be more than the letter, and therefore they would not maintain the truth. The Spirit becomes the teacher.
W.M. And when it speaks of the saints knowing all things, it is by the unction. "Ye have an unction from the Holy One".
F.E.R. The truth is maintained by those who are spiritual. He that is spiritual discerns all things, "we have the mind of Christ". There is security for the maintenance of the truth by the Spirit in the spiritual.
W.M. And the spiritual is discerned by no man, yet he discerns all things. So it is really outside man.
F.E.R. The cleverest theologian is no security for the truth.
W.M. One sees the deep necessity for the Spirit.
F.E.R. In theology everything is cast into a mould, but then different systems of theology have different moulds according to the mind of man.
J.S.A. Is not that the great lack in christendom now? People try to master Scripture by their own intelligence.
F.E.R. And they make havoc of Scripture.
W.M. We can never understand the Spirit by the letter, but the letter by the Spirit.
F.E.R. Exactly. We left system because there was no place for the Spirit. In the different systems man rules.
R.S.S. That is why I left system.
F.E.R. I think I can say it and a great many more can too, and we have a great deal more sense of the stability of the truth than we ever had in system.
W.M. Just as we have a much greater sense of safety than when we were in a fold.
F.E.R. The Spirit in a way puts us on our legs and we are not buffeted about by what this man thinks and the other man thinks. You have a sense of what is right and wrong in divine things.
G.R. You often find a very unlettered man with much more discernment of the truth than a lettered man.
F.E.R. He knows more than the ancients.
W.M. In Stephen's case, they could not gainsay the wisdom by which he spoke.
F.E.R. He was full of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit fulfils a great office in regard of us. We get every part of the truth in its own proper place. We never see a thing in its true measure until we get it in its proper place. Until then a truth is exaggerated beyond its proper importance. It is a great thing to see things in their proportion.
A.H.E. It is said that they knew the Spirit.
F.E.R. Yes, if they knew Christ they knew the Spirit.
W.M. Do you think when Christ was here that everything came out in Him in principle?
F.E.R. The Spirit brought no further revelation; all was complete in Christ.
W.M. The coming of the Spirit was to lead the disciples into it.
G.R. What is the force of that verse in chapter 16, "I
have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now"?
F.E.R. I would call that revelation.
R.S.S. When you speak of the revelation, it is the revelation of God.
R.S.S. Would you say a little as to the three aspects in which the Spirit is referred to in chapters 14, 15 and 16.
F.E.R. Chapters 13 and 14 are preparatory. Chapter 13 shows the obligation under which the Lord puts us to one another, and chapter 14 the great stay in His absence; but chapters 15 and 16 show the conditions under which the disciples were to be here in testimony to Christ, and hence chapter 15 begins something entirely new, "I am the true vine". It is the point of departure. Christ was the true vine, just as in chapter 10 He is the good Shepherd. Moses was not the good shepherd, though figurative of Christ. Christ is the Shepherd of the sheep. In this chapter we see that Israel was not the true vine, but Christ. The chapter opens up with this; that the beginning of everything is Christ. Israel had been in a sort of place provisionally as the vine, but they had lost their place. The true vine comes in and the disciples were the branches. The point for them was to prove that they were connected with Christ, just as ourselves. In christianity everything true is vital, and vitality comes out in fruit-bearing.
R.S.S. So the Spirit is spoken of in chapter 16 as the Witness, and that they also should bear witness.
F.E.R. The Spirit would be in them and they, too, would bear witness. Then in the next chapter there is intelligence in the whole system of things of which Christ is the centre. We are not now looking at the world. It has passed out of our sight like a dissolving view, because the Spirit has brought in the things of Christ, "All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you". We can apprehend the breadth and length and
depth and height, but then all that would be nothing if we had not fruit-bearing. That is the evidence of healthy vitality.
W.M. And the fruit is borne on the branches.
F.E.R. The true vine did not come in on account of the failure of Israel. God saw fit to put forth a sort of provisional vine; but Christ is the true vine. Israel never was the true vine. Now Christ says, "I am the true vine". I am the real point of departure. It is so important to apprehend that Christ is the beginning, not Adam nor Israel.
W.M. So Adam's place was that of a figure of Him that was to come.
F.E.R. Christ has come in as the Head, and the Shepherd, and the true vine. Israel will come into the place of the vine hereafter, but we are vitally connected with Christ by the Spirit, and healthy vitality will work out in fruit-bearing.
J.K. In that way you would have no fruit-bearing until Christ came in.
F.E.R. Not properly. Hence in Hosea you get, "From me is thy fruit found".
W.M. So God was never really looking for anything from man in the flesh.
F.E.R. He had looked in Israel for grapes, but they brought forth wild grapes. Now the true vine has come in, and Israel for the time being is set aside as in chapter 10 they are set aside as the flock. The flock now takes character from the Shepherd, and the true vine has come in and the branches abode in Christ and bore fruit.
W.M. Do you look upon abiding in the sense of attachment?
F.E.R. That is the sense of it.
J.S.A. There could not be fruit-bearing apart from Christ.
F.C. Is that verse in Romans 7, "married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God", in that connection?
F.E.R. Exactly. The wife abides in her husband and brings forth fruit.
W.M. So that abiding in Christ is not a christian going on in communion one moment and not at another.
F.E.R. It is continuous; it is that you travel in your proper orbit.
J.K. The exhortation to the saints, "keep yourselves in the love of God", is that the thought?
F.E.R. That is the same in principle.
G.R. Not to abide would be really to apostatise.
F.E.R. Exactly, that is the force of it, as if the moon could get out of its attachment to the earth, it would get out of the shining of the sun. We want to abide in Christ in order that we may be in the sunshine, because all fertility is dependent on the shining of the sun. The earth wants two things, sunshine and rain. It abides in the sun, and on account of that it gets the rain, and the earth becomes fertile and brings forth fruit. It is the same in the christian; he abides in the light of the sun and the consequence is he gets rain and so becomes fruitful.
W.M. So the peaceable fruits of righteousness are by Jesus Christ unto the glory and praise of God.
J.S.A. Is walking in the truth the same thing?
F.E.R. Exactly, walking in the truth is walking in Christ. The Lord speaks of two particular things in the chapter, love and joy. They are fruits. They are spoken of in Galatians as the fruit of the Spirit. I am sure people want to be in sunshine. I am speaking so of myself. It is true in natural things, but there you may get too much sunshine because the sun has no intelligence; but when you come to wisdom, the true Sun, there is intelligence, and He can adapt Himself in that way to the people that have come to Him, so that you never need be afraid of being scorched by Christ.
J.K. Abiding in the sunshine would produce fruit.
F.E.R. But you must get the rain to soften the earth. Everything is adjusted by Christ. You do not get too
much sunshine and not enough rain. People run after rain and do not get enough sunshine.
A.H.E. How do you define rain?
W.M. And then if people get very happy under these influences they can express it by singing hymns, spiritual songs etc.,
R.S.S. Keep yourselves in the love of God; that is abiding in the sunshine.
F.E.R. Where is the love of God presented to you?
F.E.R. It would be a very wonderful thing if we had christians fruit-bearing, walking here in love to one another, and full of joy, and intelligent in the things of Christ, apprehending the breadth and length and depth and height, knowing the whole extent of the moral universe.
J.K. Would you confine fruit-bearing to service?
F.E.R. That is not the idea of fruit-bearing. It is the produce of healthy vitality. I have seen a tree all leaves; there is vitality, but not healthy vitality. In healthy vitality there are leaves and fruit.
W.M. Chapters 15 and 16 would be overpowering testimony to Christ.
F.E.R. I ask anybody if it would not be so. We should be filled unto all the fulness of God.
R.S.S. I suppose there is a tendency with us all to get somewhat depressed.
F.E.R. That is the influence of the world in having to do with present things, and therefore the necessity of feet-washing comes in, to help one another. I wish one had more courage to approach people. I have had it said to me, 'I have often wished that some one would speak to me about divine things'. There is a certain sense of need in people to which we might minister.
R.S.S. You mean people we come in contact with every day?
F.E.R. Fellow-christians, I mean.
R.S.S. In connection with ourselves what is the antidote for depression?
F.E.R. To get into the sunshine, and that will raise the question as to how we will get into the sunshine.
F.E.R. "Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light". The sun is there and there are no clouds over our Sun. But fogs arise sometimes. A fog is as bad as a cloud, and we get fogs and exhalations though no clouds.
W.M. If we awake we soon get out of these fogs!
F.E.R. Jude puts it very beautifully, "building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God". These are very good exhortations. Prayer is a great thing. I do not think people get enough alone with God in prayer and meditation.
W.M. It requires courage to do that.
F.E.R. That is the way people thrive.
A.H.E. The trouble in this country is we have not enough meetings.
F.E.R. I think perhaps you want a little more rain sometimes.
R.S.S. One notices in Scripture that joy is connected somewhat with the ascension of Christ. Would that come in in a way in connection with what was before us?
F.E.R. It is the fruit of the Spirit; we have the admonition, "Rejoice in the Lord". It is a great thing to get a sense by the Spirit of all things being in the hand of Christ. Then you will rejoice in the Lord. It looks some times as if the world had all its own way; look at the terrific pace at which the world is going. It looks as if the world would dominate the universe by modern invention and armaments, and defy the power of God, but really after all if you look at things morally, the world is a scene of confusion. Politics are expediency. A politician takes advantage of things as they arise. Is there nothing better than that? The comfort is that the Lord is above it
all, "Rejoice in the Lord". All authority is given to Him; you want to get to Him.
W.M. And He can reduce everything to order in a moment.
G.W.H. And He is going to do it.
F.E.R. I have no doubt the time will come when forces will be let loose which will smash up the world. We get that in the Revelation.
F.E.R. Yes, and socialism; it will break up the whole framework of society.
A.H.E. An English doctor said to me that a patient of his died through fear because of the reverses of the British armies in South Africa. He thought the British nation was going to pieces.
F.E.R. I would be very sorry to have my hopes bound up with the British nation.
W.M. Men's hearts will fail them for fear.
F.E.R. The sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood. What a terrible day for the world.
G.W.H. It is a great thing for a christian in the midst of it all to have the eye fixed upon Christ.
F.E.R. "Taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked". "Be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might".
J.S.A. It is a healthful thing to have the intelligence of chapter 16.
F.E.R. That is the point; one world is judged to bring another world into view, "All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you".
Ques. I want to ask a question, "I will pray the Father", what is the sense of that?
F.E.R. The real word is, "I will beg (demand) the Father". It is a word peculiar to John. Elsewhere it is, "having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit". He received the Spirit. It is the fulfilment of Psalm 68, "Thou hast ascended on high, ... received gifts in Man".
He was first anointed personally, and then having accomplished redemption He goes to the right hand of God in order that He might shed the Spirit abroad in others. It is put in a different way here, but really it is the receiving of the Spirit in Man in order that He might send forth the Spirit to others. So Peter takes it up, "having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear". It is a wonderful thing that Christ should accomplish redemption in order to shed forth the Spirit. If we have the Spirit there is fruit-bearing, and we know the things of Christ. All real christianity lies within the region of the Spirit. Outside of the region of the Spirit you get out of christianity in its true power. All that we see around us, churches, and all that sort of thing are outside of the region of the Spirit.
R.S.S. It is an immensely important thing to grow in spiritual intelligence. I expect that is our great lack. I mean with good intentions we do the wrong thing.
F.E.R. Yes, the apostle prays for the Ephesians, "To be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man, that Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith". Then it is, "that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God". That prayer stands good for us.
W.M. And I suppose chapters 14 to 16 are the opening out of that prayer. There is faith in chapter 14, love in chapter 15 and intelligence in chapter 16.
Galatians 2:15 - 21; 5: 6
It will be allowed that what was really operative and true in the apostle Paul should be true and operative in us. The principle on which the apostle walked is the principle on which we have to walk, and there is no other true principle. God had not one rule for the apostle and another for us. The apostle speaks of himself, but he speaks of himself as an example, and that comes out in the end of the second chapter. The fact is that he presents for us the truth in himself. The "I" is not exactly personal, but more the personification of the truth in himself. He says, "I, through law, have died to law, that I may live to God". The same would be true of any christian who had been under law. The fact is that the law had demonstrated to the apostle how contrary he was to God. The law was the ministration of death and made plain to man that the sentiments and springs in man are contrary to God. The law prohibited this and that, but the principle of it made plain and was intended to make plain to man his contrariety. It was said, "Thou shalt not covet". God does not covet. If man covets, he is contrary to God, and where is the than that does not covet? There were things in man that were not in accord with God, and if contrary to what is in God they could not be right in man. God created man in His own image and likeness, and therefore if there is found in man that which is contrary to God, it proves that man has departed from God, and the law made that manifest. All of us know this, for there is no one in the world of whom it can be said, he does not covet. Well, the law brought that home to the apostle and led him to say here, "I, through law, have died to law", that is, in other words, the law killed him, because it demonstrated to him that there was that in him which was contrary to God. That is, it killed him in his conscience, but
that was met and he accepted it. He says, "I, through law, have died to law, that I may live to God. I am crucified with Christ", His mind was brought into accord with the crucifixion of Christ, so it is with regard to us. We are able to say, "I am crucified with Christ". Christ was crucified in fact, we are crucified with Him by being in accord with that which has taken place in Him. That ought to be the case with every christian, for the cross of Christ came in, not simply that we might live, but that in the first instance we might accept death. Death and the curse lay upon us, and the death of Christ came in so that we might accept it, and by so doing might find life, the other side of death, in Christ. That is a point of all moment, and hence we are in accord in mind with that which took place in Christ in fact. But on the other hand the apostle says, "no longer live, I, but Christ lives in me". That is, that the object of the death of Christ was that we might accept death in regard of the course of things in which we previously lived, but then it is that "Christ lives in me". Then the apostle adds a word, "in that I now live in flesh", that is in that I live here in responsibility, I live by faith, that is, not by law, "the faith of the Son of God, who has loved me and given himself for me". Now I will tell you the practical import of faith. What you believe governs you. That is always a test of faith. The devils believe and tremble, but they are not governed by what they believe. They only tremble. When the Lord was here upon earth demons knew Him as Son of God, but were not governed by this knowledge. Faith apprehends unseen things, and what marks the christian is that he is governed by unseen things. I think people sometimes make a mistake about faith. A great many people here have never seen England and yet all believe there is such a place as England, but there is no faith in that, because if you had the opportunity you could go to England and verify it. That is not faith. Faith is the acceptance of things on sufficient testimony, that you cannot verify, and yet you are governed and controlled by
the things that you cannot verify. You accept them on testimony. God gives testimony, and God has taken care that there shall be ample evidence to the testimony; but we have to accept things on the testimony of God, and if you could verify them there would not be faith. The truth is that we believe in things which are not seen. We know them only on the report from God, and yet they are of such import to us down here that they govern us in all the detail of life. That is virtually what the apostle says here, "in that I now live in flesh, I live by faith, the faith of the Son of God, who has loved me and given himself for me". One effect of that in the apostle was that he overcame the world. We read elsewhere, in the writings of the apostle John, "Who is he that overcometh the world, but be that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?" Christ overcame the world, and so did the apostle. The world sought to overcome Christ, and so, too, the apostle. The apostle in overcoming the world had to encounter all the force of man and to overcome it. The apostle did not trim his sails to suit either Jew or gentile. He was apart from the Jew, and from the gentile as from the Jew, because by faith he overcame the world, and did not accommodate himself to what was here.
Law no longer governed the apostle, nor idolatry, philosophy, nor anything here. The spring and principle of the apostle's activity and life was the Son of God who loved him and gave Himself for him. If that was true for the apostle it should be true in regard of you and me. You cannot go right except by Christ. There is not a single thing we can do right except under the influence of Christ. Everything you do under His influence is right. There is nothing else that is right or suitable to God. The apostle's life was under the influence of Christ, whether it was joyful or sorrowful. It was a sweet savour to God. The same principle applies to us. What we do under the influence of Christ is acceptable to God and nothing else, and in so doing we overcome the world. Many of us have suffered as much from the approaches of the world as
from the opposition of the world. If they cannot subdue you one way, they try another, but it is all no good, the point is to overcome the world, and the principle on which you overcome is the faith of the Son of God. I should suppose we are entitled to individualise the Son of God as the apostle did here. He had been as perverse as any one. He was the leader and apostle of opposition to Christ, and yet Christ had loved him and given Himself for him. I think one may appropriate the Son of God to himself in that way. If Paul said it, I would be glad to say it, and I would be glad that anybody else should appropriate the Son of God in the same way, and that is the principle and spring of conduct down here upon earth.
As an illustration of it, I will ask your attention to John 9:34 - 39. You see the Lord had virtually left the world. In the previous chapter He had passed out of the midst of the Jews. He had not yet died, but He had left the world in spirit. Well, He had given sight to the blind man, and the blind man had found out the hollowness of the world. I cannot say he had quite judged it all, but he had found its hollowness and had been cast out. He had simply attributed the fact of his having sight to the work of Jesus. Then the Lord finds him and brings him to the point of confession that he believes in the Son of God. Then it was, I take it, that he overcame the world. I have no doubt when he was first cast out that he was miserable enough, for he was alone, but it was another thing when Jesus found him, then he believes on the Son of God and does Him homage. He could not perhaps go so far as to say, "the Son of God who loved me and gave himself for me", but he could have said the Son of God who has opened my eyes. It is an illustration, in that sense, of one who had overcome the world. You have to take into account that the Son of God has now no part in the course of things down here. The Son of God is at the right hand of God, and we walk by the faith of Him, and what we believe governs us in our course and conduct down here. In human things a wife does right when she
walks and lives in the sense of her husband's love. So with a child in a family, it does right while it is under the influence of its parents' affection. That is the secret of right conduct on earth. I believe it would be the same even between employer and employed -- if the employed had respect and affection for the employer, they would act rightly. And I am sure it is so in regard of christians. The principle and spring of everything right is in the heart being under the influence of the Son of God.
Now I want to go on to another point, that for which I read a passage in this same epistle, that is, "faith which worketh by love", (chapter 5: 6). When saints get away from the influence of the love of Christ, they soon get to biting and devouring one another. They do not give up outward proprieties; the tendency of the Galatians was to go back to circumcision and law. No doubt regard to circumcision and law would bring about a good deal of outward propriety, but, as regards one another, love was not there. Depend upon it, where people are legal the tendency is to bite and devour one another. That is where the Galatians had got to. People begin to stand on their rights, and that is always a dangerous thing. It is only one step from biting and devouring one another. In contrast to that the apostle says, "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision has any force, nor uncircumcision; but faith working through love". That is the point I desire to touch on.
We do not know much about circumcision or uncircumcision, but in their place we get orthodoxy and heterodoxy and there is no power in one or the other. Circumcision was better than uncircumcision because it was ordered of God. So good doctrine may be better than heterodoxy, but neither in orthodoxy nor heterodoxy is there power. The correct man, like the Pharisee, has a good deal of credit attaching to him, but there is no more power in it than in heterodoxy. The divine principle is faith that worketh by love; that is a most important principle. We cannot talk much about faith if there is not love. When
the heart is under the influence of the Son of God, then it is that faith is operative by love, and I think I may say that it is a true principle that if you fail to find love in the saints you may depend upon it faith is not very bright.
Just to give you an illustration of that, I will call your attention to Luke 10:38 - 42 and John 12:1 - 7. 1 refer to Luke 10 because that is the first allusion we have to Mary of Bethany and the attitude of Mary was that of sitting at Jesus' feet and hearing His word. That is, in other words, she was under the influence of the Son of God. The Lord commended her. Martha found fault with her, because she was herself occupied with serving. She was legal and where people are legal they are fussy and active. That is generally an evidence of legality. It was not but what she believed in Christ just as really as Mary, but she had not come under the influence of the Son of God and Mary had. That is seen in her sitting at the feet of Jesus. It is blessed to sit at Jesus' feet because you come under His influence. When a little child sits at the feet of its mother, and hears her word, he not only hears what the mother has to say, but comes under the mother's influence. In John 12 faith is seen operative in Mary by love, that is, that Mary would devote the most precious thing that she had, to distinguish the Lord; she thus made evident her faith. It was operative by love. She would anoint the Lord for His burial. What she had before her mind in connection with Christ was His burial. There may have been faith as to His resurrection, but the Lord's interpretation was that she anointed Him for His burial. It was an act of devoted affection on her part. The disciples blamed her for it; they thought it waste. They were poor judges. I have seen this in life -- if faith is operative in you, people of the world will blame you. They will think you are losing opportunities. You must be prepared for that. When faith works by love it will break through the laws of human prudence, but human prudence is not very far off from covetousness. Christ was life to Mary and she sought to distinguish her life. Every
one tries to distinguish his life. She was dead in a certain sense, but she distinguished her life. The fact of your living down here is not morally your life. Let me give you a word of admonition. Take pains to distinguish Christ. To want to be yourself conspicuous is a mistake. Try and make Christ distinguished. But I can understand any one saying, we have not Christ here; we are not like Mary; she had the Lord before her in the house in Bethany, and a great opportunity of doing honour to Him. It is true that we are not brought into the same personal contact with Christ that Mary was. But I think I can meet that difficulty.
If you will turn to John 21:15 - 19, we can carry the thought on there in regard of Peter; he had faith, but there was a passage in his life when his faith was certainly not operative by love. Another thing came in; Peter, being a rather rash man, entered into temptation. The Lord had taught the disciples to pray that they should not enter into temptation, but Peter ran into temptation. He did what a great many of us have done sometimes. He got into a position for which he had no faith, which is always a mistake, for you are bound to fail. People may extend to you the courtesies of the world, and you may go into worldly company, having no faith for it; and it will not be for your credit or honour. You do not want to get into a position for which you have no faith. Peter did and the fear of man came in and led to the denial of the Lord. He denied the Lord three times, and that is why possibly the Lord challenged him three times. But faith in Christ was there. We have good evidence of it, because the Lord said, "I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not". There was the terrible breakdown, but instead of Peter going out and giving up in despair, he wept bitterly and Peter was in result restored. But now the Lord was about to leave the earth and the faith of Peter was to become operative by love. How could it go out? Now the Lord gives direction to it. He challenges Peter three times and the point of all was this, that his
affection for Christ was to go out to the sheep and lambs of Christ, faith was to become operative by love. The love was to find its objects in those who belong to the Lord down here upon earth. It is a wonderful thing to think that the Lord has objects here. We have an object in heaven; and it is inconceivably blessed to think that the Lord Jesus has objects down here upon earth. They are not in heaven yet; they are here upon earth. His sheep and lambs are here. There are many spirits of saints with the Lord, but they are but spirits of saints; those for whom Christ has affection at the present time are upon earth; and, if faith is operative by love, the direction love will take will be toward those who are precious to Christ here. The Lord gave that direction to Peter and he answered to the Lord, and his affection went out to the lambs and sheep as you see in his epistles. He occupied the place of a shepherd to the Jewish sheep and lambs of the Lord. So that faith became operative by love, even when the Lord was absent from the earth. Mary had an opportunity when the Lord was here; Peter had an opportunity when the Lord had gone. Now that has a voice for you and me. It is a blessed thing to know that we are to be for ever with the Lord, but that is not yet. The voice of the archangel will sound and we shall be caught up to be for ever with the Lord, and we shall have continued affection for the Lord then, but that is not just yet. We are left here for the moment to walk under the influence of the Son of God who loved us and gave Himself for us. And, if faith is operative by love, the direction of that love will be in regard of those upon earth who are precious to Christ.
Another difficulty might be raised. 'There are so few of them one can get at. There are so many much better christians in this thing and that thing, that I never come across'. The thing is to make the best you can of what comes to hand. There is no good in hankering after those you cannot come in contact with. If you cannot get at them, make the best you can of those that are at hand.
What comes to hand may not be of the very highest quality, but it comes to hand, and, poor as it may be, it is within the bounds of possibility that it may be precious to Christ, and we cannot do much harm in going out to what is precious to Christ. Hence we have opportunity. Faith is operative by love and we want to cultivate it, so that instead of being governed by motives and maxims of human prudence, our love should go out to those we come in contact with; that is the word I give you. That was the principle with the apostle. He had hated christians in times past, but now faith had come in. He was prepared to spend and be spent for the sake of those who were Christ's.
One word occurs to me in regard of him, he says, "I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory". It is a blessed thing to love one another. We prove our love to Christ by loving one another. If a man told me he loved Christ I would say let me see it. Let me see what you are to the saints in service to them, and what you are to them proves the reality of your affection to Christ Himself. It is a great thing if we walk in love one to another. It was the commandment of the Lord Jesus. "These things I command you, that ye love one another". Do not be surprised if the world hate you, but, as to you, love one another. What I have tried to bring before you is, that faith is operative by love and there is opportunity of letting your love go out to those who are the objects of affection to Christ down here.
1 Corinthians 1:1 - 31
R.S.S. What special thought have you before you in this epistle?
F.E.R. In every epistle Christ is presented in some particular way. No two epistles present Christ exactly in the same light. It is a point of the greatest interest to see the light in which Christ is presented in any epistle, and, in connection with that, the purpose of God in so presenting Christ. That was the thought in my mind.
R.S.S. Perhaps you might mention to us the way in which Christ is presented in the various epistles.
F.E.R. I can only do it cursorily. For instance, in the epistle to the Romans, Christ is the mercy-seat, the point with God being to declare His righteousness.
In 1 Corinthians: Christ is presented as the wisdom of God and the power of God, the purpose of God being by Christ to overthrow all that existed and to establish what was of Himself.
In 2 Corinthians: Christ is presented as the Yea and Amen; that is, the confirmation of the promises of God.
In Galatians: He is the vessel of Abraham's blessing to the gentiles.
In Ephesians: He is ascended up far above all heavens that He might fill all things.
In Philippians: He is the life and aim of the christian.
In Colossians: He is the Head, in whom the reconciliation of all things comes to pass.
In 1 Thessalonians: He is the Deliverer from the coming wrath.
In 2 Thessalonians: He is the Destroyer of antichrist.
In 1 Peter: He is the Living Stone, it is a question of a building.
In 2 Peter: He is the Day-Star in the heart of the christian and the kingdom is in view.
In Hebrews: He is the Apostle and High Priest of our profession.
In James: He is the Lord of glory.
In 1 John: He is the true God and eternal life.
Every epistle takes its character from the particular light in which Christ is presented. When you apply that to 1 Corinthians in which He is the wisdom of God and the power of God, it is seen that the purpose of God is to establish here what is of Himself, and on the other hand, to overthrow all that which existed, and had influence over man's soul.
J.P. And so in chapter 15 the last enemy to be destroyed is death.
F.E.R. Because it is the enemy that holds man in bondage, and its power is destroyed by the resurrection of Christ. 1 Corinthians is an elementary epistle, that is why I thought it might be helpful. It is a very great thing to see what God has proposed to do by Christ.
J.S.A. Would you say that these presentations are made in any special connection with the state of those to whom they were written?
F.E.R. That became the immediate occasion of the epistle, but the Spirit of God rises above that and presents Christ in some particular light in regard of the world to come. There is no epistle which, in thought, does not carry you on to the world to come. It is the end in view in every epistle.
R.S.S. I suppose you would say the same thing was true in the gospels.
F.E.R. Quite so. Evidently Christ is presented in a special light in each.
R.S.S. But not in the epistles that were written to individuals.
F.E.R. They are not doctrinal.
J.P. What do you mean by the world to come?
F.E.R. The world which is going to be set forth in the
light of God, and in which God will be glorified; the time of restitution of all things. It says in Hebrews 12, "ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel". All are constituent parts of the world to come, and we are brought to them by the Spirit of God.
J.S.A. It is not the new heaven and earth, but a new system of things.
R.S.S. Would you repeat for us what is the meaning of Christ as the wisdom of God and the power of God?
F.E.R. I think He is the wisdom of God as being the resource of God, the means by which God would put Himself in contact with man; and He is the power of God to overthrow every influence and every enemy that holds men in bondage.
R.S.S. Is that the meaning of the word wisdom -- resource?
F.E.R. A man of wisdom is a man of resource, so Christ is the resource of God.
R.S.S. The power of God in the Scriptures is largely connected with resurrection, but is this a larger thought?
F.E.R. The resurrection of Christ is insisted on in chapter 15, because the question there is really of victory over death. The last enemy, death, shall be destroyed, and in the close of the chapter the apostle speaks about the victory, "O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?" The resurrection of Christ brought in the victory.
R.S.S. Then that connects it with resurrection?
F.E.R. Yes, and there must be power to rise inherent.
J.S.A. "It was not possible that be should be holden of it".
F.E.R. In that sense Christ is the power of God. "He must rise" is the way Scripture puts it. He must rise as truly as He "must suffer"; resurrection was inherent in Christ.
R.S.S. So Jesus speaks in John 2, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up".
F.E.R. "No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again".
R.S.S. I was thinking of that scripture in Ephesians where it speaks of God having put forth His great power in the resurrection of Christ.
F.E.R. But then, Christ is God. Resurrection is inherent in Him because He is the Son of God. There was no power to hold Christ in death though He did enter into it, "he must rise".
R.S.S. I suppose Christ is the power of God in the end of Philippians 3, "Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself".
F.E.R. Yes, but the point here is the overthrow of all that held power over man. That is what God has done. Christianity is an existing fact, and although it has been most fearfully corrupted, yet God first used it to overthrow all that existed.
W.M. Do you mean heathenism, judaism and philosophy?
F.E.R. Yes, whatever held man in bondage, superstition and the like. It was God's purpose to bring to nought the things that are. God has chosen things of no account to bring to nought the things that are, that no flesh should glory in His presence.
W.M. And all fell before the most insignificant instruments.
F.E.R. Things despised, even things that are not. I do not think people see what a mighty power Christ has been in the world, for many things once overthrown are rearing
their heads again in the decay of christianity. You get a kind of idolatry coming in, and superstition and many evil things.
W.M. I suppose Christ is pretty much preached now for the benefit of the world and that people miss the point. The apostle says, "we preach Christ crucified".
F.E.R. Of course preaching now is in christendom pretty much.
O.O'B. Should not the gospel be preached outside of christendom?
F.E.R. All that is a question of individual grace given.
R.S.S. What had you in your mind when you said, we preach the gospel in christendom?
F.E.R. I mean it is a different thing now from what it was at the beginning, you take a great deal for granted in the preaching. We do not put the first elements before people. We suppose that people to whom we preach know something of the elements of truth. For instance, you do not attempt to argue with people as to the existence of God. We would have to do that among the heathen. They have no idea of a living God.
W.M. If you went to heathendom you might talk a good deal about the goodness of God in sending rain from heaven and fruitful seasons, as Paul did.
F.E.R. In christendom it is taken for granted that the Bible is accepted as being the word of God, but the Bible would have no sort of authority among heathen. Preaching of necessity among the heathen must be of a different character from that in christendom.
Ques. Could the gospel today be preached outside of christendom?
Ques. In which way should I go and preach the gospel outside of christendom?
F.E.R. To the limits of christendom.
F.E.R. I suppose this country is professedly christian,
but in Africa and Asia you might go to the limits of christendom.
W.M. I suppose in preaching in christendom it is difficult to tell who has been the means of the conversion of anybody.
F.E.R. Quite so. From the fact of christianity having been established in the world, as we find it, we have very little idea of the mighty power which was connected with the preaching of Christ in the first instance, and how effectually the preaching overthrew all that existed. It did that, and there is no disputing it.
J.S.A. I was thinking of the statement in Acts 4, "Now when they saw ... that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled". There is the power of it.
F.E.R. But then the mighty power of God was with the truth, and for one simple reason that in Christ there was the light of God.
G.R. They said, "These that have turned the world upside down are come hither".
F.E.R. You will find that in Ephesus the preaching of Christ came into contact with idolatry and the power of idolatry fell, for all the influences of those days depended upon the ignorance of man in regard of God. Once the light of God was brought in these influences of necessity came to nought.
J.S.A. Christianity has lost its force by having become a system of doctrine instead of the setting forth of Christ as the revelation.
G.W.H. In Acts 17 you find Paul preaching to the Athenians who were in that condition you spoke of just now.
F.E.R. The point there was philosophy, but philosophy fell. Where is Grecian philosophy now? Very few know anything about it. Where is idolatry now? In the decay of christianity mohammedanism came in. But on the face of things that is a mixture and corrupt. It came in and swept over Asia Minor after christianity had decayed.
G.R. It is striking in Acts 17; the apostle does not quote scripture as in Acts 13, which is almost a string of quotations.
F.E.R. Because in Acts 13 he was preaching to Jews.
G.W.H. In Acts 17 he reasoned with them, did he not?
F.E.R. The apostle was always reasoning. I think reasoning is much more the right thought than declamation in preaching. Our preaching is often too declamatory.
F.E.R. And reasoning as to what is right, for christianity presents what is right, and we ought to be able to reason on what is right. An orator would affect people by mere oratory, and there you might have a good deal of declamation, but you do not want to affect people by that kind of thing when you have what is right. We find the apostle reasoning and alleging, so he reasoned with Felix. When you are declamatory it is a proof that you want to affect people and are not quite certain of the power of what you are preaching.
J.S.A. And in the other case the conscience is to accept what is right.
W.M. It is not the preacher's responsibility to affect people.
F.E.R. I think not. He is to reason with them, "Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men". The great point in christianity is that it presents righteousness. "Thy lips speak right things", and there is nothing else that is right.
W.M. Commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
E.A. Is that the force of the passage in Isaiah, "Come now, and let us reason together"?
G.W.H. If you are convinced that a thing is right, have you not a right to state it as a fact?
F.E.R. But then you have to meet all sorts of peculiarities and contrarieties in the minds of men; and you
have to take account of them, and to answer them as far as you can. "Unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews". We have to take into account the influences under which people have been educated and trained, and meet their difficulties, and reasoning comes in there.
A.Q.R. What did the apostle mean in verse 17, "not with wisdom of words"? Does not that mean reasoning?
F.E.R. No, I think he meant there was no adoption of philosophic forms, such as existed. Christianity (and it is important to remember it) is not dogmatic. Judaism was dogmatic, because the light had not come in. The moment the light comes in, there is an end of dogmatism.
R.S.S. In connection with what you were saying, judaism made an emphatic demand. That is what you would say is dogmatic. Whereas in christianity God presents Himself in a way that affects men morally.
F.E.R. You get the standard of all that is right. For instance, as to righteousness. People make a great deal of righteousness doctrinally, but it is what is right. That is the simplest definition I know. Well, how are you to determine what is right? Of necessity it must be determined by what God is, if you do not know what God is you have no determination of what is right. When God is revealed you have the determination of what is right, and can talk and reason on it. A great many things were tolerated in Old Testament times that were not strictly right. For instance, people told lies for an end, for they had not an absolute standard of what is right. Once God is revealed, everything is changed.
W.M. Would that scripture, "the times of this ignorance God winked at" refer to it?
F.E.R. That refers more to idolatry.
J.P. Dogmatism came in with the decay of christianity.
F.E.R. Rome is all dogmatism. They try to keep the
Scriptures from the laity, and the poor laity are cast upon the dogmas of the church. That is not christianity; it is the corruption of it. What we have to meet now is the revival of things which were overthrown by Christ.
G.W.H. And how are they to be met?
F.E.R. As at the beginning. You will not meet them by dogma. It is by one's practical sense of what is right.
J.S.A. And Christ is really the test of that.
J.B. Are not men losing the knowledge of God?
F.E.R. They had lost it; it has been a little revived now, but three hundred years ago what knowledge of God was there?
J.P. So that it is the great thing in that way to apprehend Christ.
F.E.R. Yes. I have only been speaking so far of how effectually everything was set aside by the introduction of Christ. He was the power of God to that end, but He was the wisdom of God. So in chapter 3 of this epistle you get what God established in Christ. It is never the thought of God simply to overthrow. He will do that. In the Old Testament we read, "I will overturn, overturn", but that is not properly God's work. The point with God is to establish, and He establishes what is of Himself, and Christ is the One in whom He does it.
J.P. If He overthrows that which is not according to Himself it is that He may establish that which is according to Himself.
F.E.R. He establishes that which is of Himself, and by it He overthrows that which is not of Himself.
J.P. You see in the third chapter what God has established.
F.E.R. Yes, the first great principle is the temple, that is what in Christ is established, and if you have the temple of God you have the oracles of God. This was foreshadowed in Israel. They had a material temple and, in a sense, the oracles of God, but now in Christ you have the true temple of God and of necessity the oracles.
J.P. The oracles accompany the temple.
F.E.R. Yes, the apostle says in chapter 3, "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?"
J.P. What is the great idea of the temple of God?
F.E.R. It is the shrine of God, where the oracles are. That is, they are really here on earth, and it was because of that that all the various powers of which I was speaking fell.
W.M. And therefore the light of God was here.
F.E.R. Quite so, because the Spirit of God is here; the Spirit meant the truth of God. How has the truth been maintained here? By the Spirit. Another thing is seen in the previous chapter which is extremely important, and that is, the spiritual man; apart from the spiritual man you would not get the building, but the spiritual man is not everything. The building is composed of living stones, spiritual men, but then the Spirit of God is there and the Spirit of God is accountable in that way for the maintenance of the oracles of God.
H.M. Would you say the church was the oracle of God?
F.E.R. No, the church is where the oracles are. The oracles are found in the Spirit of God. They come out in the temple, the church, but they may be greatly obscured in the temple.
J.P. We do not know things by the temple, but we know things by the Spirit.
F.E.R. Yes, but all the stones ought to be transparent, not opaque, so that the truth might shine out through the stones.
W.M. That is, spiritual men; such are not opaque.
F.E.R. Yes. Spiritual men are transparent; carnal men are partly opaque; natural men are entirely so.
A.Q.R. What is meant by the foolishness of the preaching?
F.E.R. It is more the foolishness of what is preached. You can understand how contemptible the preaching of the cross was in the eyes of the Greek philosophers.
W.M. I suppose the preaching of a crucified man as a Saviour must have looked like a mockery to them.
Ques. What does that mean, "If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God"?
F.E.R. I suppose a man ought not to speak as it were of himself. If a man speaks he speaks what he knows to be of God.
J.B-n. Did the stones on the breast of the high priest have anything to do with it?
F.E.R. The stones on the breast of the high priest were representative of the twelve tribes; he bore them on his heart.
R.S.S. In connection with transparency, what is the meaning of that passage at the end of chapter 2, "the spiritual discerns all things, and he is discerned of no one"?
F.E.R. I do not think the spiritual man is discerned of any. He discerns all things; there is nothing hidden from him. He understands all moral questions but is not discerned of any. I do not think the cleverest natural man can take in the spiritual man. The cleverest thought-reader could not read my thoughts until they have taken shape, but then something lies behind my thoughts. There is a conception behind them and a thought-reader could not read that. You do not speak until that has taken shape in your mind.
W.M. And the spiritual conception he is incapable of seeing.
F.E.R. There is another thing which is extremely important; even if it were really possible for a thought-reader to apprehend the exact form of some thought in my mind be would not know what is meant. He could only apprehend the mere form of the thought; be would not enter into the spirit of it.
J.P. After all, Scripture is true, is it not?
F.E.R. I find it more and more so. It is wise and one sees nothing which compares with it.
G.R. What would you say is the special value to us of these first three chapters?
F.E.R. It is a great stay to apprehend that the oracles of God are maintained here -- the temple and the Spirit of God are here.
J.S.A. All the failure of christians has not altered that.
F.E.R. No. The Scriptures would hardly have maintained the truth of God, though they are of the greatest value to christians, but the Spirit has maintained the truth of God.
J.S.A. And I suppose we may go as far as to say whatever is real in christianity is of the Spirit.
F.E.R. Exactly. I was saying last night that the point for every one now is to retire within the region of the Spirit. In christianity people have got far away outside of it. The great preachers of the present day affect people; they carry the people far away beyond the region of the Spirit into that of the human mind. We get here, "let no man glory in men". "He taketh the wise in their own craftiness". A lot of wise people pretend to be christian preachers. People need to get away from man and his influences.
W.M. I suppose everything else will break down sooner or later.
F.E.R. All these things around us are the revival of what was overthrown in the first instance by Christ. There were temples when the gospel was first preached, and priesthood and superstition and state churches; all that existed, but God intended all to be overthrown simply because it was all false and exercised a pernicious influence over man. It was overthrown, but now it is all revived in a different colour. The whole entourage gives you the idea of that. It is a revival partly of judaism and heathenism.
W.M. Do you think God ever set up anything ecclesiastical or that at all times there was the region of the Spirit to go into?
F.E.R. It is an interesting point in connection with the church at the beginning that there was nothing outside of
the Spirit. If a man had to do the least kind of service, to distribute money, he had to be full of the Holy Spirit.
J.P. It is a great point for us at the present time to apprehend Christ as the wisdom and power of God, and to see that the temple and the Spirit of God are here.
F.E.R. Exactly, and you have the oracles.
J.P. That is all you need; you do not need anything else.
F.E.R. The great thing is to retire from what is not of the Spirit. It is not difficult to judge what is not.
E.A. Do you mean to say as to the oracles of God, that the Spirit of God uses the word?
F.E.R. I think everything resides in the Spirit, "Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Spirit teacheth".
E.A. That would not be apart from Scripture.
F.E.R. No, but the Spirit of God has His own mode of teaching. Scripture gives you the form of the truth. The Spirit is the truth and He has His own mode of teaching. The truth is the Spirit just as Christ is the truth. It is a reciprocal expression.
E.A. I suppose no one could speak by the Spirit unless be spoke according to the word.
F.E.R. If he spoke by the Spirit he would speak according to the word. He would not contravene it. It is to the law and the testimony that the appeal is made.
A.Q.R. Which is the guide, the Spirit or Scripture?
F.E.R. Scripture is the appeal. "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them". But you get light from the Spirit. All light comes from the Spirit, from the knowledge of God. You never understand the words in divine things until you have the things. The Spirit gives you the thing, and having the thing, you understand the words. For instance, take the outset with any one; a man being born again; he does not know anything about it until he is born again. So, too, as to the reception of the Spirit, a man does not know anything about it until he has
the Spirit. So it is all along; you understand the words and the form of things because you have the things.
A.Q.R. Is it proper to say the Spirit takes Scripture and makes it good to us?
F.E.R. I think the Spirit has His own way; the Spirit is the truth. "Ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things". Divine teaching is a wonderful thing.
W.C.R. When are we ready for divine teaching?
F.E.R. As we go on, we are prepared for it.
Ques. Then would you say knowledge comes by the Spirit, not by the study of the Scriptures?
F.E.R. I would not care to put things in that hard and fast way. I think all right knowledge is by the knowledge of God, but then the Scriptures are so immensely important, because they put all into definite shape in the mind. You learn everything, if you learn it divinely, by the knowledge of God. I do not believe any one was ever deeply affected by anything except the knowledge of God which comes to you by the Spirit of God. We have the Spirit of God and cannot have anything greater.
E.A. Would you say a word on the passage you have just quoted from John, "Ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things"? What is the force of, "know all things"?
F.E.R. I think the object of the apostle was to deliver saints from dependence on man, a man intuitively knows all things by the unction.
W.M. So that no man can teach another the knowledge of God.
F.E.R. No one but the Spirit could do that, and that is the only true knowledge.
J.P. That is the only thing that affects you morally; the other does not.
F.E.R. For instance, the first great lesson the Spirit brings home to you is of the love of God. "The love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit which is given unto us".
A.Q.R. Is it possible for the Spirit to teach one in principle before one knows that the things are in Scripture?
F.E.R. I think so, but then you must remember this, you not only want to have the thing in that way, but in an intelligent way, so that you can use it.
W.M. And we have often used texts to hammer things into people's heads which they have not really received?
F.E.R. I think if people have the things they will soon understand the texts, but it will never do to undervalue the Scriptures. All your apprehension of things has no authority; even an apostle would be subject to the Scriptures. The apostles took care to show that all that they presented was according to the Old Testament Scriptures, so the Lord Himself says, "the scripture cannot be broken".
A.Q.R. It is a great thing to keep Scripture in its right place.
W.M. The Bereans received the word readily and searched the Scriptures for confirmation.
F.E.R. And right enough they were too. I would be extremely glad in regard of what one puts out, if people would go to the Scriptures to find out if things were so.
A.Q.R. Do you think there is a tendency to ignore the teaching of the Spirit and depend on the letter?
F.E.R. That is where christendom has got to partly, because it has put man in the place of the Spirit. When things got into decay and people became unspiritual, man was put in authority and displaced the Spirit. They began by appointing elders, instead of the elders being men full of the Holy Spirit, and then the elders appointed bishops, a kind of supreme elder. Look at the popish church. Who is the head? Not Christ nor the Spirit, but the pope. So, too, the Greek church; it is not Christ or the Spirit, but the patriarch. In the English church it is the king. So all the great dissenting bodies have their synods, and such like, and the Spirit is displaced; and they make everything
of the letter and have lost the Spirit, and what is the effect? They have little understanding in divine things.
J.S.A. As you say, they have really lost the knowledge of God to a large extent.
F.E.R. Because they have ignored the Spirit, and how can they make any advance? It is so important to retreat within the region of the Spirit; there it is you get light. The spiritual man discerns all things.
W.M. And the temple is here too.
F.E.R. Yes, the temple of God. People say 'why ever do you want to separate from this and that?' My answer is, it is no good remaining in a false place; the thing is to get out to where the Spirit is, and there you will find understanding of the oracles of God. I mean that individually you come to where the spiritual man discerns all things. Until a man has retreated he will not get much understanding. When we left system we did not understand much about the temple. We connected the Spirit very much with the individual. There was no idea of the Spirit in the company. I think when we were delivered from those things we began to get some apprehension of the temple of God and of the presence of the Spirit of God, not merely in the individual, but in the temple.
Ques. What is the distinction between the temple and the house?
F.E.R. The temple is connected more with the oracles of God; the house is where people learn how to behave. In my house I expect every one to behave. You do not expect to sit down at the table with your hat on.
J.B. Is the temple of God connected with testimony?
F.E.R. I think the temple of God is for the maintenance of the oracles.
Ques. What do you mean by the oracles?
F.E.R. What God has to say. A Corinthian would have understood the idea.
W.M. "What the Spirit saith unto the churches".
F.E.R. There you get it. I do not think there has been a moment in the history of christendom when the Spirit
did not have something to say to the churches, some particular truth suitable to the moment. If you are within the region of the Spirit you have the opened ear to hear what the Spirit says to the churches. Surely at the present time the Spirit has something to say.
J.P. It would be impossible to conceive of the Spirit being here and being silent, would it not?
F.E.R. Yes. You will not find a single man in system who has any definite idea of the meaning of the addresses to the seven churches -- and if he has any idea he has picked it up from brethren and then uses it as though it were his own.
J.P. And turns around and abuses the people he picked it up from.
J.S.A. Just on the line you began with, that the Spirit of God has a different presentation of Christ to every church He addresses, so He may have a special truth for us at any given time.
F.E.R. I have no doubt He would bring this home to us. A thousand years ago people did not understand the addresses to the churches very much.
W.M. You were saying last night that Christ is always in activity and the Spirit is always speaking.
F.E.R. Until He has brought about all the will of God. It is a great thing to know, "ye are the temple of God". The work of Christ was to build the house of God. In redemption He laid the foundations and Himself built the house. Everything was prepared for the Holy Spirit to come. All the material was ready on the day of Pentecost, and the Holy Spirit came and the house of God was there.
J.P. The one hundred and twenty men and women represented the blessed end and result of the Lord's work here.
F.E.R. The house was built by Christ and then the oracles of God were there. They were not in the temple at Jerusalem or with the chief priests, but in the temple, and the preaching went out from the temple.
J.P. I am wonderfully impressed with how this truth
excludes man, and how it leads people to get into touch with God.
F.E.R. That is the point before the mind of the apostle. He says at the end of chapter 3, "If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that be may be wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God", that is His estimation of man.
Luke 18:35 - 43; Luke 19:1 - 10
In the incidents I have read there are three points on which I want to touch. The first is the opening of the eyes of the blind man. The second is the result of that; that is, he followed Jesus, glorifying God. The third point is seen in another incident. In chapter 19 Christ becomes the satisfaction of the heart. Now in our experience things follow pretty much in that order. The first thing is for the eyes to be opened; the next thing is to find the path, and the path is there. The Lord often speaks of it, it is to follow Christ; and in following Christ we find satisfaction for our hearts. It is a great thing to reach that point. It will remind us of what the Lord said in the fourth of John, "whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life".
I speak first in regard of the opening of the eyes of the blind man. It was not an uncommon miracle with the Lord. It has been said that there was an idea among the Jews that opening the eyes of the blind was a miracle reserved for Messiah. I do not think you will find any case in the Old Testament of the eyes of a blind man being opened. I would not lay much stress upon that, but as a matter of fact, we know that was one of the particular things which the Lord did. He did it literally, but He did it morally too. In the case in John 9 it was not only that the man's eyes were opened literally, but the eyes of his mind were opened. What came to pass was analogous to what we get here, Jesus revealed Himself to him as Son of God, and he worshipped Him. That was the end of it. In other words, the man recognised Jesus in that way and did Him homage. I think that was really the work of Christ, for the Lord evidently did not attach much importance
to the miracles He did except in so far as they were witnesses to who He was and whence He came. The Lord did not attach importance to faith which rested simply on miracles, "many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did. But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men". The point was this, that a link between God and man should be formed by the word of God, not by miracles. People might be struck with wonder at miracles, and forget all about them, and therefore they were not any real link between man and Christ. Those who have a real link are those that hear the word of God and do it. Nothing ever proved how completely blind man was, like the coming of Christ into the world. If a man is short-sighted and you draw his attention to some object in the distance, he may not see it, but that man sees the sun. If a man does not see the sun you have proof that he is blind, and that was the case when Christ was here. The proof of the condition of man spiritually was the coming of Christ into the world, "I am come a light into the world". One might almost render it, 'a luminary', and the light was not apprehended of men. "The light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not". The Jews at the first had a certain regard to Christ on account of what He did and said. It could not be denied. Even their messengers had to say, "Never man spake like this man". Man ought to have seen in Christ, and did see in a kind of way, though he would not acknowledge it, that God was presented in Him. He was the Light; He declared God. No one had seen God at any time, the "only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him". He did not speak from Himself. Whatever He said or did had its source in the Father. He did the Father's will and spoke the Father's mind. There was something totally different in Christ to anything that had been seen or heard before. He declared God. Every word He spoke told of God. The Lord could speak of things He knew and of what He had seen. No prophet could ever have spoken in that way. A
prophet could not say, "We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen". Christ alone could say that. He made known what was in the heart of God toward man. Not only what God was in His blessed nature; but in His disposition toward man down here, that came out continually in Christ. I do not think anything describes adequately what Christ was down here save to say that He was the expression of God's disposition toward man, and the truth is not less than this, that God was brought close to man where man was, and men found themselves in the light of divine goodness. We talk a good deal about the new covenant, but Christ was the new covenant. God would no longer approach man by law and prophets as in old times, but by the Son. The law was the old covenant and when the people had broken down under the old covenant, God sent prophets to recall them to allegiance -- but Christ was the new covenant. He was the expression of God's disposition toward man down here; like the warmth of the sun brought close to man. Do you think, when the Lord Jesus was here that any person had cause to be afraid of God? God was brought near to man in goodness. The Lord could be severe on hypocrisy, but we would not have it otherwise. There would be no security for you and me if there were the least dark spot in God. I have often thought that a great deal of infidel reasoning which would go to prove that God is unjust and arbitrary, would make a very poor look-out for you and me. The best security for us is that God is good and only good, and that was made manifest to man in the presence of the Lord Jesus here on earth. God had brought Himself close to man, and man could see what was in the heart of God, not toward good men but toward sinful men on earth. You will find this coming out in the case of Zacchaeus; it was really God come into the house of the sinner to bring salvation to that house. Zacchaeus was hardly converted yet. He did not know much about the Lord, but there was a desire which no doubt grace had wrought in him to see Christ, and Christ came into his house, and in the fact of
being in his house He brought salvation to the house. The disposition of God to the sinner was salvation.
Now the great mass of people were quite blind. They did not discern the light; they did not care about God. People in the present day, too, think a great deal more about the almighty dollar than about God. They do not care much for goodness or grace or righteousness or love or holiness. I never came across a man who naturally cared to hear about holiness and righteousness, what is morally perfect. That is too severe for people. They are content to accept things as they are. They are much like the people of Gadara, more content to have the man with the legion of devils than to have Christ who cast out the devils. Whatever may be the evils of the world, and people admit them -- man would rather have the world as it is, and the devils, than have Christ here who would talk to them about the love and the holiness and the righteousness and the faithfulness of God. People take no account of these things, and yet any sober person must admit that they are right. Surely there are such things as holiness and righteousness and truth, all have come to light in the revelation of God. In Christ that revelation was there.
But there was another thing that should have been apprehended in Christ, that was, He was a Man pre-eminent above all other men. This came out at the birth of the Lord, in the acclamation of the heavenly host; then again, at the baptism of the Lord the Spirit of God descended upon Him; then on the mount of transfiguration the voice came from heaven; it was evidenced repeatedly that He was not like any other man. He was the anointed Man and pre-eminent; the first, and qualified in that way to be intelligence for man down here. He was on the one hand the revelation of God, bringing home to man what the disposition of God was toward man, but by the very fact of that, He was the one Man, and the only One who was competent to be intelligence for man. The apostles found that out. If I may use the expression, they gave up their own heads and trusted Christ, and they were right.
Christ guided them. So with Mary of Bethany, Mary Magdalene and others, they gave up their own heads. No other intelligence than Christ was any good to them. They had been drawn to Christ by grace, and they accepted Christ as their intelligence and Christ led them to a very blessed result. He led them to the Spirit, and He could not have led them to any better end.
As a matter of fact, very few eyes were opened. There is a remarkable expression in regard of the Lord in the prophet Isaiah, "I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain", and yet there was result, so that the Lord Jesus could say, "Behold, I and the children which God hath given me", but the mass of people who came in contact with the Lord were manifestly blind. They did not see God when God was there, in the divinely-appointed Man who alone was qualified to be wisdom for man. He is made wisdom to us, that is, intelligence. He alone could lead men through the perplexities of this world of moral confusion, where there is no way.
I go on to the next point and that is as to what the blind man did. He followed Jesus, glorifying God. Now, I want to say a word or two in regard of following, because our eyes have been opened that we might follow Christ. The earth does not travel, so to speak, of its own will; it follows in its own appointed orbit. You get the thought in regard of the sheep, "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me". Just as the sun holds the earth to itself by the power of attraction, so Christ holds the sheep to Himself by the like power. "I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me", and so in the passage I just quoted. All is, of course, moral, not physical, as in the universe. Jesus says, "and I know them", that is, I hold them to Myself, "and they follow me". The expression is a strange one. You could have understood the people following the Lord when He was here upon earth, but it is a little more difficult to entertain the idea of following at the present time, becauseREADINGS ON THE GOSPEL OF JOHN (1)
READINGS ON THE GOSPEL OF JOHN (2)
LIBERTY TO SERVE GOD
READINGS ON THE GOSPEL OF JOHN (3)
READINGS ON THE GOSPEL OF JOHN (4)
READINGS ON THE GOSPEL OF JOHN (5)
THE LAW OF CHRIST
READINGS ON 1 CORINTHIANS (1)
SIGHT, OBJECT, SATISFACTION