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INTRODUCTION

A general desire having been expressed that another visit should be paid to the American continent, similar to that which took place in 1898, the same brethren sailed from Liverpool on 18th September, 1902, and they arrived back again on 15th November. During that period they visited Quebec, Rochester, Chicago, Indianapolis, Knoxville (Tennessee), Baltimore and Plainfield. At most of these places meetings were held for three consecutive days, consisting of readings in the morning and afternoon, and addresses in the evening. At several places there were many present from distant gatherings, At Chicago, where the meetings were intended chiefly for the local residents, there were readings late in the afternoon and addresses in the evening, but a great many from Chicago also went on to Indianapolis.

Before sailing from New York there were two afternoon readings there with addresses in the evening. The character of the meetings throughout was free and happy, and many stated that they had received help and encouragement, The second visit necessarily differed in many respects from the first. The novelty had passed off and the actual state of things was more apparent. One result of this was that the ministry took more the direction of meeting the condition and needs of those present, than a simple setting forth of truth as on the last occasion, It is therefore not so easy to summarise the subjects which occupied attention, nor to refer to them in such a connected form as before, but it may be useful to direct attention to a few of the leading thoughts which were taken up in detail at several places.

There are two which stand out prominently, and they are

  1. That it has pleased God to make Himself known to man, and to come, so to speak, within his reach, in spite of all his ignorance, his disobedience and his wickedness.
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  3. That from the moment sin came into the world God has wrought in view of another world, which is not yet displayed, but to which faith has always looked on, and of which Christ, having accomplished redemption, is now established as the Sun and centre.

As regards the first point it is clear that if God, who is (a) Spirit, and who dwells in unapproachable light, was to make Himself known to man, He must come near him in man, and therefore the Word became flesh -- the Son became incarnate -- took part in flesh and blood. Even so, however, He would still have remained alone -- sinless and perfect in a world of sinful men -- but as men lay under the sentence of death He Himself went down into death, and laid down the life which none could take from Him, so that rising out of it there might be set forth in Him, in resurrection, all that was in the mind and thought of God for man. These blessings are not, so far as the presentation of them goes, limited to any particular class of men, but are for all and every man. The believer is, however, the only kind of man who comes into the actual good of them.

It is of great importance to keep quite distinct in our minds that which in the goodness of God is presented to us as testimony, which man is responsible to receive, and the work of God in the souls of men by which they are brought into the good of it. This last has to do with the sovereignty of God, whilst the former is presented to the responsibility of man.

In considering the second point we must remember that this earth was created and made in view of man being established as head over it. Adam failed entirely to maintain such a position, but the purpose of God as set forth in Psalm 8 will yet be made good, and the scene and time of this being displayed will be "the world (or age) to come". As already stated, from the moment that sin came into the scene God wrought in view of that world, and the faith of His saints was, in one way or other, directed towards it. When the suited moment had arrived He who alone was

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competent to be the Head of that world appeared (2 Timothy 1:9, 10) -- a divine Person, but taking the place and condition of a Man. As such He tasted death for everything, and having by that death accomplished redemption, the work which brings in reconciliation, He takes His place in resurrection as the Head of every man, and as Head over all things to the church which is His body, all power being given to Him in heaven and upon earth. We do not yet see all things put under Him, but faith knows it to be true, and all that remains is to wait for the introduction in manifested power of that world, or age, which takes its character wholly from Him who is its Sun and centre.

To be in the light of the knowledge of God as He has been revealed by the Son, and of that "world to come", which, though not yet actually displayed, is established morally in Christ, is the blessed privilege of the christian today.

It is a great help in understanding man's relationship with God to remember that sin is really "lawlessness". The word "sin" has lost its meaning in many minds, partly no doubt from the unfortunate error in the ordinary translation of 1 John 3:4, which states it to be "transgression of the law". An illustration drawn from the 'solar system' helps us to understand lawlessness, and what the contrast to it actually is.

The earth and all the other planets have their appointed places in relation to the sun, and are held in attachment to it by certain fixed laws. Each one is maintained in its proper place and there is no disorder. In those rare cases in which a body seems to break loose from its place the result is destruction, as with the wandering stars of which Jude speaks.

In applying this figure to man it must be remembered that he is a moral being. As such he was created and placed in relationship with God, and though fallen he still owes an "account of himself to God". Through disobedience he broke away from this relationship and so

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became a lawless being. His history ever since is one of unrighteousness. Each one has followed his own way, with the result that evil of every kind has developed and man is lost -- is on the way to final destruction. When God graciously intervened to bring in salvation, the first thing we find is a Man in this scene who "loved righteousness and hated lawlessness". This righteous One laid down His life for those who were unrighteous in order that He might bring them to God. He having tasted death for everything, God has given Him a place over all things and all men. In virtue of what He has wrought God now presents in His name forgiveness of sins to all, and to him who receives the testimony Christ gives the Spirit as "living water". This becomes in the believer a spring, welling up into eternal life. From another point of view, by receiving the Spirit the believer is 'firmly attached to Christ' 2 Corinthians 1:21, New Trans.: note.

Christ being, as already stated, the Sun and centre of that new moral system where all is according to God, he who is thus attached to Christ is brought into and maintained in his true place and relation to God. He is now no longer lawless, but is duly subject to Christ, and practises righteousness.

Such are the wonderful effects of appreciating what God has set forth as to the place which Christ now occupies, and we understand in measure the force of the statement that "grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" Romans 5:21.

In connection with the subject of eternal life it was pointed out that whether life is looked at physically or morally it is dependent on certain conditions. Those conditions exist when any person is born, that is begins to live. They are necessary to the infant, and the life is lived in them. The moment a child is born it comes under the influence of the laws which govern all material bodies, and it requires and finds rule and air and light. In spiritual things there are what correspond to these, all found in

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Christ. He is "eternal life", and to be really in it one must abide in Him.

With regard to redemption it is important to remember that only the one to whom an inheritance belongs has the right to redeem it for himself, and this brings before us the great fact that God as Creator has rights over men, and that when Christ -- a divine Person -- accomplished redemption He was really (to use the figure) discharging the liabilities which encumbered His own property. Man may refuse to come into the benefits of what has been done, but that in no way alters the fact.

Another interesting point which was brought out is, that in each of the epistles Christ is presented in some special character, and that the appreciation of this is a key in each case to the right understanding of the epistle. As to the gospels this has often been remarked, and it is true to a large extent as to the prophets. It may suffice here to say that in 1 Corinthians Christ is presented as the Wisdom and Power of God by which all that dominates man is set aside in order that all that is of God may be introduced in men, and all on the ground of resurrection. In 2 Corinthians He is seen as the One in whom all the promises of God are established, and in the epistle of John He is "the true God and eternal life".

The sole object of these remarks being to direct particular attention to some of the subjects dwelt upon during the meetings, it is not desirable to extend them further. It only remains to add that there was a strong feeling expressed that in these closing days, whilst it is most important to have an enlarged appreciation of the extent and character of God's thoughts, purposes and ways as set forth in Christ, it is also of the deepest importance to understand that it is only by the individual apprehension of these things in the power of the Spirit, and by being in the condition morally suited thereto, that there can be any real answer in us to what God has been pleased to unfold to us. There is little or no trace of anything formal or ecclesiastical in the early days of the church -- everything

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was set up and carried on in the power of the Spirit. If this was the case, then it must surely be necessary now, when everything external is in ruin, and so we may justly appropriate the exhortation to Timothy, "Take heed unto thyself and unto the doctrine".

J.S.A.

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READINGS ON THE GOSPEL OF JOHN (1)

John 3:1 - 21

G.R. Could you say in a few words what the subject of this gospel is?

F.E.R. I think the point in it is the presentation of Christ according to what Christ is. It differs in that way from the other gospels, because they present Christ more or less officially, while John presents Christ according to what Christ is.

G.R. What He is in His own Person?

F.E.R. Yes, personally; therefore I look upon John as being in a sense the backbone of all the gospels.

J.T. It is not Christ in relation to anything that existed previously?

F.E.R. I think not. In Matthew's gospel Israel is taken up in Christ. In Luke's gospel man is taken up in Christ, and in Mark the prophetic word is taken up. But John's gospel is different. It presents Christ as the Son of God. It is in fact the revelation of God.

J.S.A. I suppose the result of that as affecting man is that there must be a new kind of man or being to say to Him?

F.E.R. The Son of God is the starting point.

W.M. I suppose that is brought out in the preaching of the apostle, God "was pleased to reveal his Son in me", Galatians 1:16.

F.E.R. Yes, "when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, come of woman, come under law, ... that we might receive sonship". Galatians 4:4.

It is important to see that John is peculiar, in that there you get the revelation of God.

R.S.S. Would you say that the first man, the man after the flesh, was really in the way of what you speak? That God could not reveal Himself in connection with him; so you get Him coming into the world and the world knowing

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Him not, and to His own and His own receiving Him not; and then the Son of man is lifted up at the very beginning in this chapter.

F.E.R. The Son of man lifted up is really the testimony of God. It is God coming out in love -- the Son of man lifted up is the point of attraction. "I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me".

W.M. Like the brazen serpent lifted up in the eyes of perishing men.

R.S.S. Is it not the setting aside of man?

F.E.R. That is incidental in it; the point is the testimony itself. The death of Christ is the great testimony of divine love. The Son of man must be lifted up, for God so loved the world.

It is God coming out in love to take up the liabilities under which man was, hence the Son of God must needs become incarnate, so that all that lay upon man might be taken up in a Man, but it was the testimony of divine love.

W.M. So the removal of man was incidental.

F.E.R. The point is what was behind it on the part of God, and that was the love of God.

W.M. When it is a question of the Son of man being lifted up, that does not bring in divinity; is not that in the Son of God more?

F.E.R. He must be lifted up as Son of man. It is only thus He could be lifted up. He must assume that condition to be lifted up, but the point is that God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son. The Son of man is the only begotten Son of God who must be incarnate to be lifted up.

J.T. You think the expression "Son of man" alludes to His incarnation.

F.E.R. I do.

R.S.S. In connection with what you said at first, that in John it is what Christ is personally; you find the love of God coming out, because it is His nature.

F.E.R. And there is the revelation of the Godhead. The revelation of the Godhead could not be except in a

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divine Person. God could not reveal Himself by writings; no prophet could reveal God. He could speak what God told Him to say, but neither prophet nor inspired man could reveal God. God is not revealed in writings or prophecies. It is in God coming out in the Son. God has spoken to us in these last days in the Son. He has revealed Himself.

R.S.S. In connection with that, it is remarkable that you get in the first chapter "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him".

F.E.R. Exactly; that leads you to what lies behind Scripture. The Scriptures are inspired and give us the account of the revelation and how the revelation has been received, and the responsibility connected with the revelation, but the revelation itself is behind it all.

W.M. Many people confound inspiration with revelation.

G.W.H. Would you say there had been no revelation of God until Christ came?

F.E.R. There had been communications, but no revelation of God, because there had not been anybody adequate to reveal Him. God is declared now, but it is by the only begotten Son in the bosom of the Father. Everything is changed by the revelation of God.

J.S.A. God was in Christ. It is not merely that He spake by Him. He was in Christ.

R.S.S. We have been in the habit of saying that in Old Testament times God was partially revealed and made known. For instance, in the way He spoke to Moses, "by my name Jehovah was I not known". Would you not speak of that as revelation?

F.E.R. I would not. It left man to a very large extent in dimness; there was no real revelation of God in His nature.

J.T. The expression "Jehovah" spoke of God coming out in Christ.

F.E.R. All was anticipative. God dwelt in the thick

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darkness; that characterised Old Testament times. He dwelt behind the veil. It was in the death of Christ that the veil was rent from the top to the bottom. Not exactly in the life of Christ; that is, not fully. In the death of Christ God came out.

W.M. So in that way Christ's flesh was a veil.

J.T. The faithfulness of God really depended on the Son becoming man to bring out what "Jehovah" signified.

F.E.R. I have no doubt the revelation of God was bound up with another immensely important point; that is, the Son coming out in order that He might be the Head and centre of the creation of God. I think the two thoughts are most intimately connected. When the moment arrives for Christ to come out as the Head you get the full revelation of God.

J.T. So the Old Testament scriptures could not be understood actually until the Son became Man.

F.E.R. The prophets did not understand their own prophecies. We understand them because we have the Centre.

J.T. I think that is very important, because I do not think it is quite seen that these things were anticipative. All looked on to the introduction of the Son.

F.E.R. So the Lord Jesus said, "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me".

J.S.A. It was said at Quebec you could never understand the Old Testament until you read it in the light of the New.

W.M. The New Testament is morally before the Old.

F.E.R. For the simple reason that Christ is the beginning. It is difficult to a great many people to understand that Christ is the beginning. He is the Head of the body, the church, which is the beginning, not merely the Head of the body, but the beginning. So the Lord speaks of Himself to the angel of the church at Laodicea, "the beginning of the creation of God".

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W.M. This present creation?

F.E.R. Yes. He is "the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God".

J.S.A. And what was really the divine thought was only brought out after the responsible side has been gone through.

G.R. It has been said that Christ is the beginning of the new creation?

F.E.R. Can you refer us to the scripture?

G.R. No, I could not. I could refer you to a hymn. I think it is exceedingly important that Christ is the beginning of the creation of God.

J.T. And I suppose that this has its bearing on us even as connected with the present order of things. For instance you would not go back to Genesis for instruction as to your conduct even in your family. You get it all from Christ now.

F.E.R. Exactly. He is the beginning of the creation of God. It is only in Christ that you get the right idea of things. I have no doubt that things which God established from the beginning, relationships, etc., really had Christ in view.

W.L.P. What does creation in that light really mean?

F.E.R. It takes us back to the beginning. To get the true idea of things morally you must learn all in Christ, because God established everything in view of Christ.

W.L.P. Is it the same thought in Hebrews, "by whom also he made the worlds"?

F.E.R. You get the thought anyway, in Proverbs 8, in the idea of wisdom.

J.S.A. And Adam was a figure of Him who was to come.

F.E.R. No doubt Adam bore certain traits of Christ.

J.A. So if families are allowed on earth God would have His own family also.

F.E.R. The relationship of man and wife has manifestly Christ and the church in view.

J.S.A. It is referred to in the instruction as to how you are to behave in that relationship.

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F.E.R. So also the position in which God set Adam as the image and glory of God had Christ in view.

J.S.A. I think you were saying some time ago that no doubt all creation had some reference to Christ -- the sun in the heavens, and so on.

F.E.R. I think so. By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God; there is wisdom seen in the order of the universe, and wisdom was Christ.

J.S.A. I think there is practical gain in seeing that, because it connects everything with which we have to do with Christ.

J.T. And it puts a saved soul in connection with its proper centre.

F.E.R. Because the truth of the gospel is really Christ Himself. It is not only what Christ has done. I think what Christ has done is in a way secondary, the gospel is the introduction of Christ Himself, I mean as the Head and centre -- like the introduction of the sun into the universe, so Christ has been brought into the universe and that is glad tidings.

W.M. And Christ is being presented as Head in testimony before He is publicly brought in as the Sun.

J.S.A. And what the believer gets is not simply certain things from and through Him but everything in Him.

F.E.R. Yes, in whom we have redemption.

J.T. And that holds good in connection with all the characters of the Old Testament. You think of Christ as the Heir of the world.

F.E.R. Every man of faith presented some trait of Christ because Christ was in view. It is important to apprehend the existence of some traits of Christ before sin came in. One can understand it after sin had come in, but it is important to see that Christ was in the mind of God from the outset.

W.M. So the world to come is not established until the marriage of the Lamb takes place.

J.T. What do you allude to as traits of Christ before sin came in?

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F.E.R. In what Adam was as created we see a difference from all the rest of the creation. You get in him intelligence. He was the object of reverence to the inferior creation, set over the works of God's hand, etc. He was the image and glory of God, the centre of the whole order of things down here upon earth. This was all in view of Christ. It was to be fulfilled in the Son of man. You get man and the Son of man in Psalm 8, but the object of divine counsels is not man but the Son of man.

G.W.H. Do you get the thought of the headship of Christ when you see Him as the beginning?

F.E.R. I think so. I think the Head is wisdom incarnate. Wisdom is the explanation of all God's dealings. Then wisdom becomes incarnate, and incarnate wisdom is the Word, or perhaps the Word is incarnate wisdom.

G.W.H. And I suppose it is to Christ as Head that man has to say.

F.E.R. I think so, because the Head is wisdom for man; the idea of a head you get in your own head, what guides you entirely is your bead. The members are accustomed to look there naturally for guidance, but now the point is, that the real Head over all things, of every man, is Christ. He is the wisdom.

J.T. But the necessity for wisdom coming in would be because of the confusion.

F.C. Do you think the unconverted man would get the good of Christ as Head?

F.E.R. Yes, if there were no Head there would be judgment and nothing else. If God had not brought the Head in things would have been cut off long ago.

F.C. We know that man often does turn to the Lord in time of difficulty for instance.

F.E.R. I think the present moment is remarkable. It is the accepted time and the day of salvation, the world is brought into reconciliation, but all consequent on the truth of Christ having come in as Head, and all that goes on. People are often surprised that God can go on with such an evil world, but He will not act in judgment until

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the world sets up a rival head. When the apostasy and the antichrist have come in then the judgment of God arrives. That is what we get in 2 Thessalonians 2. God has now opened a door of faith to the gentiles and they stand in the goodness of God.

G.W.H. God will execute His judgment on the rival head.

F.E.R. Exactly, and on man who sets up the rival head. Antichrist is set up by Jew and gentile; it is not the work of Jew alone, but antichrist really gets his existence by apostasy of Jew and gentile.

J.A. And meanwhile God gives us opportunity in the gospel to turn to our true Head.

F.E.R. And men get the benefit. Look at the material development in this immense country. It is largely owing to Christ being Head. They may not acknowledge Him as Head, but the great prosperity of the western world is a consequence of Christ being Head.

W.L.P. That is because it is stamped as christian.

F.E.R. Yes and a certain amount of light is there. Christianity has given enormous impetus to the intelligence and cultivation of man, much more than men allow; but it brings in responsibility.

J.T. What would you say about the state of things before the Head came in?

F.E.R. Before that time the world was in the greatest moral degradation, the Jew as bad as the gentile, and the gentiles all idolatrous. Things are much altered in the world on account of the Head having come in, and in connection with that, christianity.

G.W.H. Do you get the description of the state of things in Romans 1?

F.E.R. Quite so. That is the world that was, then God set forth Jesus to be a mercy-seat through faith in His blood to declare His righteousness, and everything is changed. The world is on different ground; all were liable to the judgment of God, but now the world is in reconciliation, man has another Head in Christ.

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J.S.A. And therefore the true character of preaching is to present Christ as Head.

F.E.R. Judgment cannot come in until man shows his hand thoroughly. You get the principle in the Old Testament; until the iniquity of the Amorites was full God did not dispossess them. And judgment does not come in until man shows his hand. "He who now letteth will let".

J.T. Christ as Head will be on the side of man.

F.E.R. Yes. He has taken up His position as Head in virtue of redemption. He has accomplished redemption in taking up man's liabilities in order that He might occupy His position of Head. Christ has a right to every man, and every man has a right with regard to Christ.

W.L.P. That is the thought in "The grace of God which carries with it salvation for all men has appeared".

J.T. The grace would be commensurate with the place that man has with God.

F.E.R. Christ has bought the field for the treasure.

W.M. You mean the people when you say the field?

G.R. You made a remark at Quebec that whatever Christ did He did for Himself.

F.E.R. I was only saying that He accomplished redemption in order that He might be the Head, so He accomplished righteousness that He might be the Sun of righteousness. Whatever Christ accomplished, the first effect was in regard of Himself. He gave Himself a ransom for all that He might be the Mediator.

R.S.S. You speak of Christ in that way officially?

F.E.R. As Head.

J.S.A. And you get the idea pretty simply in the statement that if He is to be the leader of our salvation He must be made perfect through sufferings; that explains the thought of doing it for Himself.

F.C. So it is not true that the wrath of God abides upon all men now.

F.E.R. I cannot see how you can get that; it is contrary to the statements of Scripture. When it speaks of "now"

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being the accepted time I do not see how you can connect wrath with a reconciled world.

F.C. We have used that verse in the end of John 3 in that way.

F.E.R. I think the "he" in that verse is representative; it is fulfilled in the Jew; wrath has come upon the Jew to the uttermost. They are suffering under the wrath of God nationally and governmentally; they are scattered over the earth.

W.M. But that is not final; it is provisional.

F.E.R. But there it is; wrath is come upon them to the uttermost. It will apply to those who declare themselves as against Christ, but God waits for man to declare himself. We are so impatient.

G.R. Does not God's way with the Jew make that very clear? Wrath did not come upon them until they had distinctly said, "We will not have this man to reign over us".

F.E.R. Then He sent forth His armies and burned up their city. I do not think the gentile has quite declared himself in a public way so that God can deal with him in wrath.

J.T. He will deal with those "that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" 2 Thessalonians 1:8.

F.E.R. That must come out in a public way.

G.R. So today Christ is the test for every man.

F.E.R. Quite so, the testing is not yet over.

J.S.A. That is a very important principle in a general way for though you may have a very distinct impression of things morally and feel how they are going, yet according to God you do not take judgment of it until it is declared manifestly.

J.A. When an individual takes his place as a sinner and confesses Christ he finds instead of wrath being upon him that grace is for him.

R.S.S. This principle comes out in the disciple who betrayed the Lord. The Lord did not expose Judas or

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reject him from the circle of the apostles, but left him there until he declared himself.

W.M. And so the long-suffering of God is salvation.

J.T. I think the idea of patience is very practical. I was thinking of the passage in Thessalonians that follows on the instruction as to the antichrist, he adds, "the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patience of the Christ".

F.E.R. You will find the truth of long-suffering going through Scripture. The ark was a hundred and twenty years in building, so in the case of the Amorites, God waited four hundred and thirty years. So in Israel, God was loath to cast them off. After He had cast them off He brings part of them back into the land to put the test of Christ to them. They reject Christ and even after that is so He gives them another test, and that is the Spirit; and when they refused every overture on the part of God wrath came upon them to the uttermost.

W.M. And thus the world comes into reconciliation.

F.E.R. Yes, because Christ bought all, and God now regards the world as being Christ's. But when the world publicly refuses Christ, and sets up the rival head, everything is changed.

G.W.H. Would you say the reason for His long-suffering is to display the riches of His grace?

F.E.R. And to accomplish His purposes for Christ bought the field for the sake of the treasure, and now the point is to bring out the treasure.

W.M. The treasure represents His purpose in purchasing the field.

F.E.R. The elect have to come to light. You find that in the epistle to the Romans; in chapter 8, the elect are brought to light.

G.R. Would this third of John be the beginning of God's getting the treasure?

F.E.R. I think so. All is put on the broadest and largest ground. It is a question of God's thought and heart

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toward man. It is a most wonderful thing that God could come out in that way.

R.S.S. I think that we ought to learn a good deal in our ways with one another in seeing God's patient ways with men.

F.E.R. The common thought has been that the effect of the death of Christ was to bring all men under the judgment of God and that there was only one outlet from that judgment, and that was by faith in the blood of Christ. But the fact is this, the effect of the resurrection of Christ has been to change the entire aspect of things down here and to bring all men, the world, into reconciliation by Christ. Now the question arises in regard of men, not of escaping from the wrath of God but of accepting the situation. God has formed the situation; is man going to accept it? If he does, he gets the Spirit and is by the Spirit attached to Christ. If not, he declares his lawlessness and that lawlessness will in result find its head in antichrist; that is the truth of things. Now is an accepted time. The emphasis is on the word now. The apostle gives a present application to that scripture.

J.T. The great thing then is to present the situation rightly.

F.E.R. I think that is the thing for preachers, so that man may apprehend and accept it. That is faith because the situation is not public so that man's eye can see it. It is interesting to see in Luke 7 that both debtors were forgiven. "He frankly forgave them both". People forget that sometimes.

J.T. It was wonderful grace that Christ was in Simon's house.

F.E.R. God was as favourable toward Simon as toward the woman, only the woman appreciated the situation. Simon, the self-righteous man, rejected it, and therefore did not get the good of it.

J.S.A. That brings out a point which is very important, that what is set forth in Christ is God's thought for every one, not for believers only.

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F.E.R. That is one of the most important principles I know of. What God has set forth in Christ is His mind for man. It sounds a little strange at first, but the more you look into it the more you see it.

W.M. We are never called upon to believe anything with regard to ourselves. We believe what is true for everybody.

Ques. Is that why that verse comes in in Colossians, "warning every man"?

F.E.R. Yes, Christ is the expression of God's mind for every man. The apostle sought to present every man perfect in Christ.

J.T. I suppose we might say our title to what is in Christ is because we are men.

F.E.R. Yes, through God's mercy I believe in Christ and what is set forth in Christ, but I have no more title than any other man.

R.S.S. And no less. I suppose what was before us in what we read was really God stating what His attitude is, that "God so loved the world, that be gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life".

F.E.R. Exactly, in redemption He has taken up the liabilities. The serpent lifted up in the wilderness carries us back to the garden of Eden. God goes back there. The biting serpent was lawlessness. All the dealings of God had failed with Israel. They had come out perverse after thirty-eight years in the wilderness and then God goes back in testimony to the garden of Eden, to the original serpent; the spirit of lawlessness which came in by Satan. By one man sin entered into the world; the truth of it is expressed in the serpent lifted up. Christ was lifted up in testimony, made sin; Christ took up that under which man was, according to the love of God, in testimony.

J.S.A. And therefore it is rather more radical; it is not merely what man has done but the state of man.

F.E.R. Romans 2 and 3 are not occupied with what man has done but with the state of man. They take up the

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state of the gentile and the philosopher, then the Jew. It is state that is in question. "Their throat is an open sepulchre", Romans 3:13.

F.C. As a result of the work of God souls are often occupied with what they have done rather than what they are.

F.E.R. That may be, but there is not much effect produced in people until they come to the consciousness of what they are.

F.C. Would you say that forgiveness is in connection with what man has done?

F.E.R. Yes. Man's responsibility is in connection with what he has done, not with what he is. So man must have a sense of forgiveness, but after all the great question is man's state.

J.S.A. And forgiveness of sins is not mentioned in the gospel of John.

F.E.R. Except "whose soever sins ye remit" That is administrative.

W.M. I suppose the death of Christ is the introduction of order into the moral universe.

F.E.R. I think order is brought into the moral universe by Christ Himself. He is the beginning of order. There was not order in the physical universe until the earth was set in relation to the sun. You get certain things preparatory, but rule in creation was in connection with the sun. The greater light was set to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night. Order and regularity were brought in by the sun, and the same applies in regard of the moral universe. So John says, "the darkness is passing and the true light already shines". 1 John 2:8.

W.M. And the gospel is the test of whether men will come into attachment to Christ and thus into order.

G.W.H. Does it say God loves the world or is it He loved the world?

F.E.R. I think it is His great testimony.

G.W.H. How about the scripture "Now is the judgment of this world"?

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F.E.R. You cannot always read Scripture terms in the same way. For instance, John says, "all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world". That is a different idea from "God so loved the world". John sometimes uses the 'world' as the state of things down here morally, that is, moral principles; but John also uses the 'world' for the people in it. It is not the world system that God loved but the people in it. It is the world in contrast to the Jew.

J.S.A. It would be rather on the line of Titus, the "love of God our Saviour toward man appeared".

G.W.H. I suppose in John 12 it is the moral system.

F.E.R. I think it is that state of things which existed in regard of Israel, to which the Lord refers in, "Now is the judgment of this world". There has been one world as a system and there will be another. I do not think there was any world in one sense until Israel came in, and Israel became the head and centre of the world which God regarded and in the midst of which He dwelt. All that world has come under judgment. It has been swallowed up by Babylon, but there is another world coming which is spoken of in Hebrews 2, "the world to come".

G.W.H. Would you say that the world to come in Hebrews 2 is a moral system characterised by Christ?

F.E.R. The world which has been was to a large extent put under angels. In some way or other there was the administration of angels in connection with that world, but the world to come is put under Christ. I take it that is the reason of what we get in John 1; the Lord speaking to Nathanael says, "Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man".

J.T. That would be when He judges the world.

F.E.R. When He establishes the world to come. I do not think there is any state of things down here which God owns when Israel is cast away.

J.S.A. "When the most High divided to the nations

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their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel". Deuteronomy 32:8.

F.E.R. When you get the judgment of Israel, you get the judgment of all the nations that stood in relation to Israel, the whole family. God knew Israel in a special way, but He took account also of the nations around, of Moab, Ammon, the Philistines, etc.; these constituted the world of which Israel was the centre.

J.S.A. And you might say God would not recognise any world except where Israel had its place.

F.E.R. That is the point of the world to come. Jerusalem becomes the joy of the whole earth. God allowed Israel to be entirely swallowed by Babylon; Babylon is the world of man's glory, but the world to come will be the world of God's glory.

W.M. Who delivered "us from this present evil world", that is the world that was.

F.E.R. That is the whole Babylonish system down here; the two things are mixed up, the church and Babylon.

W.M. What is the force of commanding repentance in view of the statement that God will judge the world in righteousness by that Man whom He hath appointed? Is it connected with His administration in the world to come?

F.E.R. Yes. God is not going to tolerate the existing condition of things. The whole system down here is Babylonish; the mind of God is favourable toward all men, but if you look at the organisation and state of things in the world it is Babylonish. Man is glorified. Babylon is man's glory and that characterises the day. You get great kings and leaders, politically and commercially. It is a day of man's glory without moral title or qualification. Do you think that God is going to bear with that forever?

G.R. So you would say there is no one nation in any greater favour than another.

F.E.R. None.

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J.T. The great thing is that God will bring in judgment.

F.E.R. Judgment will return to righteousness. It has been divorced from it but it will return.

R.S.S. What does that scripture in the end of Acts 17 refer to? Is it the judgment-seat of Christ?

F.E.R. No, it is in view of God taking up the government of the world publicly, in view of the kingdom.

W.M. So that men are commanded to forsake lawlessness in connection with introduction of order into the universe.

F.E.R. It is a kind of last word which Paul gave them because they were perverse. Paul says, the times of this ignorance God winked at, but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent. So repentance is preached in the gospel.

R.S.S. Would you say that repentance is a breakdown?

F.E.R. It is man forsaking lawlessness. When a man accepts Christ as the divinely appointed Head, he forsakes lawlessness. He has been ruled hitherto by his own will, but he turns to Christ. He presents to us righteousness. Righteousness is God's will; lawlessness is the will of man and Satan. Repentance is the first movement in turning from lawlessness to righteousness.

G.W.H. Would you say that the Thessalonians did that?

F.E.R. Yes, they turned to God from idols. It is a wonderful thing to see that God has a moral universe before Him and that He is seeking to attach souls to the Head and centre of that universe.

R.S.S. Would you say what you mean by attachment to Christ?

F.E.R. As a woman is married to a man, she is bound. What God is going to display is a moral universe, a world has already been set forth in the providence of God, but God is going to display a moral universe in His light. When God comes out in holy splendour then there will be a universe ordered on moral principles. Now you have a

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world where man has a great opportunity of glorifying himself and doing his will and he does not fail to avail himself of it, as much in this country as in any other.

G.W.H. Would you say attachment is the forming of a divine link?

F.E.R. Exactly. If you take another illustration it is seen in what exists between the earth and the sun, there is nothing lawless in the heavens. That is what the psalmist says in Psalm 19, "The heavens declare the glory of God". Attachment is the contrast to lawlessness. If the earth did not move in an orbit it would be lawless, but it does move in an orbit and proves it is attached to the sun.

W.M. And therefore in the heavens there is no disorder.

F.E.R. The heavens declare the glory of God.

J.S.A. And the link in us with Christ is the Spirit.

F.E.R. And therefore the testimony in John 3 is that you may get the living water in John 4.

R.S.S. You spoke at Quebec of three steps, attraction, attachment and affection.

F.E.R. Every man has to be attracted, and then attached, and then you get affection for Christ.

J.A. And until you are attached, you do not properly answer to the purpose God has for you.

F.E.R. No, you are lawless.

R.S.S. Your illustration of husband and wife applies all the way through.

F.E.R. It is a scriptural illustration, we are become dead to the law by the body of Christ, that we should be married to another.

J.T. Would you say that God undertakes to set things right on the principle of attraction, not by repression?

F.E.R. Yes. He has brought in the Head, and all are attached to that Head, "I ... will draw all men unto me".

W.M. So the gospel is the setting forth of that situation.

F.E.R. The gospel is the glad tidings of Christ. What a wonderful thing it is that there is a moral universe. I see a very immoral world now, but God is going to set forth a moral universe in the light of divine love.

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R.S.S. And I think the more you know of the flesh in yourself and in your fellow men the more thankful you are that God is going to bring in another order of things.

J.S.A. And nothing else would suit His glory.

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READINGS ON THE GOSPEL OF JOHN (2)

John 4:1 - 15

G.R. Would you not say that in this chapter there is a very distinct order?

F.E.R. I think so. It is in one sense a pity that the gospel is divided into chapters; it is more a series of subjects.

R.S.S. Would you give us a little idea of those subjects?

F.E.R. The first two chapters are the confirmation of everything, on the ground of resurrection, to the Jew. Then in the third and fourth chapters the Jew is done with in a sense, for the time being, and it is the world that is in view. In the third chapter it contemplates man in darkness and in the fourth chapter in thirst. The two moral conditions in which the world was are darkness and thirst. Then we see the way in which God has come in to meet these conditions. The third chapter brings in light, and the fourth living water -- the light to dissipate the darkness, and the living water to meet thirst.

R.S.S. Is the love of God the light?

F.E.R. Yes, the testimony of God's love in the death of Christ. Christ is the light and the light has come into darkness. Then in the fourth chapter Christ gives living water. You may depend upon it where darkness is there is thirst. On the other hand where light is there is satisfaction. We know it in natural things. People in darkness do not know where they are going; they are not content or easy -- but when you come into light you get a kind of satisfaction.

W.M. I suppose the sun is the source of light for this universe, and darkness seems to characterise the Old Testament to a large degree.

F.E.R. Of course God gave them glimpses of light. He sustained them with hopes and expectations, but what has come in now is that the darkness is passing and the true

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light now shines. We have now the light of day, and living water. That is what meets the condition of unrest and thirst in man. The woman at Sychar was a typical person, representing people of the world running after this thing and that thing, excitement and pleasure, and all that is going on here. But the Lord proposes what would bring in unfailing satisfaction, "the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life".

R.S.S. He referred to the Spirit when He said that, but in what way?

F.E.R. As an energy in the believer, like a well of water, so that you may understand your relation to Christ. The Spirit brings you into attachment, then you understand by the Spirit, what Christ is to you, for Christ is eternal life. It never could be said we have that in us; Christ is eternal life and the Spirit springs up in us so that we appreciate what Christ is to us. It is thus we come into eternal life.

W.L.P. "Springing up into eternal life". Is that the understanding of eternal life now?

F.E.R. I think it is the understanding and appreciation of the conditions which God has established in Christ. In Christ God has established conditions in which it is possible for man to live morally. That is what we can see, and the Spirit is a well of water in the believer that, springing up, brings you into the understanding and appreciation of those conditions. No one ever had everlasting life except by an indwelling Spirit, that is the Spring in us. Paul's testimony was in principle just the same, "he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting".

J.S.A. Life whether natural or spiritual is characterised by conditions.

F.E.R. Wholly dependent on conditions and none of us could live apart from those conditions. Spiritually these conditions subsist in Christ. When He comes into the world again it will be the same. Eternal life will have its

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own place here upon earth as the Lord said, "in the coming age life eternal", and again you get it in the expression "In hope of eternal life".

J.S.A. Would it be out of place to mention some of those conditions now?

F.E.R. The conditions are illustrated by what is essential in natural life. The first is rule, the second is atmosphere and the third is light. These are essential to life morally, as naturally.

W.M. I suppose you hardly get these in the gospel of John, but in the epistle.

F.E.R. I think so. The gospel brings out more the kind of person who has it, the epistle what he has.

G.R. Do you connect rule with what we had this morning -- attachment?

F.E.R. It is the effect of attachment. Whatever is brought into attachment comes under rule as whatever is attached to the sun comes under the rule of the sun. So it is regarding believers. As the apostle says, "not as without law to God, but as legitimately subject to Christ". Every inch of His body was subject to rule, just as every inch of our natural body is subject to rule.

G.W.H. Do you mean by rule, moral sway?

F.E.R. Yes, in spiritual things.

W.M. He that abideth in Him sinneth not.

F.E.R. That is the object of rule, so that you do not sin.

G.R. Like the word in the fifth of Acts, "to them that obey him".

F.E.R. "He became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him". Hebrews 5:9. Even the Lord Jesus put Himself under rule, "made under law", and He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. He made all rule, but He came Himself under rule in becoming Man. Rule is the first principle of the moral universe.

G.R. That would come out in connection with what you were saying this morning. He took that place in order to be Head to us.

F.E.R. Exactly, "being made perfect", that is positionally,

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"he became the author of eternal salvation to all them that obey him".

W.M. What is atmosphere?

F.E.R. The spirit of the christian circle. If a man gets into a coal mine and there is fire damp, the man cannot breathe, but in a healthy atmosphere, above ground, a man can breathe and live. The same is true in the christian circle, it is not an atmosphere of moral death but one that is healthy and invigorating, and if a man has lungs he can breathe and live.

G.R. The contrast would be, "she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth", 1 Timothy 5:6.

F.E.R. And the apostle puts it, "For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another". That is the condition in which we were; that is not healthy nor invigorating, it is a very killing atmosphere.

G.W.H. Do you get the circle of life and death in Colossians 3?

F.E.R. You get the circle of life, but I do not know about death. You get the christian circle and the qualities of it.

G.W.H. Do you not get the opposite of it?

F.E.R. I do not think so, for the moment. Perhaps you mean in connection with the old man, put off all these.

G.R. Having found the atmosphere, what is the third thing?

F.E.R. You get the light, that is the revelation of God, in all that God is toward us in our pathway down here from beginning to end. You are in the full shining of divine light, that is, the light of divine love in its application to us all along our responsible course.

W.M. Until the judgment-seat.

F.E.R. Yes, love is made perfect with us with regard to the judgment-seat.

W.M. Were not these conditions there before the gospel began to be preached?

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F.E.R. Yes.

J.S.A. You mean the 'circle' was there.

F.E.R. Before the gospel was preached Christ was exalted, the kingdom was there, or the apostles could not have preached it; they preached the kingdom. Peter was to administer the kingdom, and it was there because Christ was exalted in virtue of redemption; and then the christian circle was there also.

J.T. Did it not depend on the christian circle?

F.E.R. Exactly, without that you do not get the atmosphere. A single christian would not bring atmosphere. You must have company. "We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren". You have passed out of the atmosphere of the world, which is hatred, into another atmosphere, that is, you love the brethren.

J.T. So the conditions allude not only to what is in heaven but to what is on earth.

F.E.R. It refers entirely to earth. We had that four years ago. This has been attacked, but I am only more confirmed in it, that eternal life applies to earth and not to heaven.

J.T. I do not think we are very much alive to what is here.

W.M. It makes it in a way difficult to carry such a gospel to the heathen, because you have not the conditions.

F.E.R. Very difficult.

J.T. But the conditions are here.

W.M. But the house of God is not in order.

F.E.R. But you can carry the tidings of the kingdom to them. You could not say much about eternal life to them. The kingdom may be beyond the house in a way; that difficulty is not a practical one to us.

J.T. When the apostles went out to present the gospel, they had something behind them which was actually existing upon earth as a witness.

F.E.R. And the Lord gave them evidence, and the

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powers of the world to come. They carried that, and there was the circle to which they could appeal.

J.S.A. And those who were converted were added to that company.

F.E.R. Exactly.

G.R. Does the expression apply to the whole company, "The people magnified them", because that would give great power to the testimony?

F.E.R. I think so. They were greatly struck by the conduct of christians one to another.

J.T. There was a sphere formed where righteousness and peace and joy were found.

F.E.R. And there was a circle characterised by the love of Christ. We have a wonderful expression in the prayer in the third of Ephesians, "that ye may be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height", that is, the whole extent of the moral universe, "And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God". It is not only that you apprehend with all saints the breadth and length and depth and height, but you know what is going to fill it, and that is the love of Christ. But we know that now in the christian circle. It is the atmosphere which christians properly breathe. Of course the difficulty of the present day is that so many christians are buried in the great mass of christian profession. You cannot breathe freely in these great systems. You do not know one another in a simply christian point of view. There is a poor atmosphere and people do not thrive very much.

W.M. So you really came out to get breath.

J.T. You could not blame one much for that.

F.E.R. Men are ready enough to do it naturally. I came out to do it spiritually.

R.S.S. There is a difference between what is spoken of here as the water springing up, and the fruit of the Spirit spoken of in Galatians.

F.E.R. Yes, that is another matter. Fruit is the effect of

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healthy conditions. In natural things again, a tree is dependent on conditions. It would not thrive apart from them; in a dark, smoky place it would not thrive or bring forth fruit.

J.T. The point in this chapter would not be the fruit.

F.E.R. No, I think it is the first principle, eternal life, then I think you get fruit. Until you get eternal life there is not very much of fruit bearing.

J.S.A. And God sets forth in the third chapter His mind that man should have eternal life. It is shown that the first thing necessary is a new start, new birth, and in the fourth chapter the living water is in view.

F.E.R. The thought of new birth is brought in to put the Jew out of court, so that everything may be put on the broad ground of "God so loved the world".

W.M. That is very striking, because new birth is not spoken of in connection with the gentiles.

F.E.R. The necessity of it is brought in, to put the Jew out of court. Nicodemus ought to have known it. The argument practically is this, that if the Jew needs to be born again, a gentile might be born again, because the Jew has no exclusive claim to being born again. He had claim as to the promises to Abraham, but none to new birth. It is purely of the sovereignty of God's love.

J.T. So that the third chapter would be largely on the divine side. We get it in that way, the lifting up of the Son of man. But then the next chapter is our side, how we get into it.

F.E.R. The third chapter brings out what is in God's mind with regard to the world, but it does not tell you how you get it. The fourth chapter gives you the 'how'. It is well for God to say it is in His mind that whosoever believeth in Christ should have everlasting life, but one may say 'how am I to get it?'

W.M. Many will tell you they get it by believing.

F.E.R. You get nothing without believing.

W.M. Then eternal life is God's mind for everybody, not only for the believer.

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F.E.R. It is in God's mind for all for it says whosoever. It is very important to apprehend that God has not two thoughts in His mind with regard to people; He has one thought with regard of all. God would have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

J.T. You say we get nothing without believing.

F.E.R. Nothing except light. By faith we have the apprehension of what is in God's mind for man; it does not give it to you. For instance, as to forgiveness of sins, you do not get that by believing. You know it is in God's mind. Faith apprehends that, but you do not get it by faith in any available way.

J.T. How do you get it?

F.E.R. By the Spirit.

G.R. I thought you got the Spirit consequent on forgiveness.

F.E.R. You get the Spirit consequent on there being forgiveness in the mind of God for man.

J.T. But why would it not be all right when you have the light of God's mind?

F.E.R. Because you want a witness. I do not think you have it in any available sense without a witness.

J.T. The testimony in the Acts was that forgiveness was preached in His name.

F.E.R. That is all right and forgiveness was God's mind in regard of all, "that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem". It is a great thing when one comes to apprehend the fact that forgiveness of sins is in the mind of God toward all. Hence it is clearly toward me. But in order to get it effectually and availably I want a witness in myself. The mere apprehension that it is in God's mind toward all would not give it to me availably.

W.M. That is what you meant this morning by saying that all blessings were in Christ.

F.E.R. But the appropriation of all blessings from beginning to end is by the Spirit. You have the witness of nothing apart from the Spirit.

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J.T. In Ephesians they believed the gospel of their salvation.

F.E.R. They believed that God had brought salvation to the gentiles, then they received the gift of the Spirit, and then they got all those blessings which come in in christianity, in an effectual and available way.

J.T. Would it not be correct to say that they had the light of forgiveness before?

F.E.R. Yes, but light was that forgiveness was there.

J.T. Would not that be pretty much what we have taught, that they were forgiven?

F.E.R. But in a certain sense all are forgiven; forgiveness, in the appropriation of it, is that you have the witness of it in some way in yourself. I think you can see it in this way, the outward public effects of sin are not yet set aside. The christian dies like any other man, he is sick, etc. The outward results and effects of sin are not yet put aside. So that in order to know you have forgiveness you want a witness in yourself. In the millennium you will get what was shadowed forth in the two goats on the day of atonement. It is a curious thing that on the day of atonement though they offered a bullock for a sin offering for Aaron and his house there was no scape-bullock, but when you come to Israel, there was not only the goat for the sin-offering but there was the scape-goat, and on the scape-goat the sins were confessed and carried away into a land of forgetfulness. So it will be with regard to Israel hereafter, sin will be demonstratively put away; they will be delivered from their enemies, and death and sickness will be put aside, and God will be here in light in Christ, and it will be evident and public that there is forgiveness of sins. How can you prove to anybody that you are more free from death and the consequences of sin than any other man? The only way we can get at it is by witness. The practical result of the witness is that sins cannot come in between us and God; everything depends upon the witness.

W.M. In keeping with that, would you say that both

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Simon and the woman in Luke 7 were forgiven? but the woman got the witness in the word of Christ.

F.E.R. I think so, forgiveness was in God's mind equally for both.

Ques. On what ground do you get the witness?

F.E.R. By faith, that is, sealed by the Holy Spirit.

Rem. A great many have believed and have not the Spirit, and are in doubt and darkness.

F.E.R. Quite so, they are not free with God because the real test of having forgiveness is liberty with God.

G.W.H. You were saying you do not get anything by believing, would you say you get salvation by believing?

F.E.R. No more than anything else. What you apprehend by faith is that salvation is there. You could not get it without believing, but it is not by believing. You get it just as you get forgiveness, by the Spirit.

W.M. The believer gets it.

F.E.R. Yes, and no one but the believer gets it, because otherwise people are indifferent, but salvation is by the Spirit.

J.S.A. The salvation which is in Christ Jesus.

Rem. What men need is the Spirit.

F.E.R. Scripture goes so far as this, "if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his".

A.H.E. Will you kindly explain the reply of the apostle Paul to the jailor at Philippi.

F.E.R. He simply tells him that believing on the Lord Jesus Christ he would be saved and his house, and afterwards he expounds to him the word of the Lord; then they were baptised and received the Spirit and were brought in that way into salvation. He was saved by the Spirit, just as we are saved. We are brought into the reality of what subsists in Christ.

W.M. Would you say salvation really lies in being brought into these conditions?

F.E.R. Yes. The Spirit is a well of water springing up into everlasting life. You are saved out of the system which is obnoxious to God, like Israel saved out of Egypt.

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A.v.DeB. It is a wonderful thing to be saved!

F.E.R. It is a great thing to get into the reality of it.

Rem. I suppose believing is a work of God.

F.E.R. Faith is the gift of God, but then you must remember when speaking in that way that men are under responsibility to believe; if God addresses Himself to men in the way of testimony there is a responsibility attaching to man to believe what God says, because otherwise we make God a liar. The gospel is presented to the obedience of faith.

W.M. I suppose people have to be clear about righteousness before salvation.

J.S.A. It is a great point in chapter 4 the receiving of living water.

F.E.R. I was saying that the beginning of the third chapter contemplates a world of darkness (and the Jews were as dark as others), where God is not known; and the fourth chapter a world of thirst. It is a remarkable thing how very little things have changed. Take this vast country; it is to a large extent a world of darkness. Men attach importance to certain things, politics, money, etc., but do not concern themselves about what is in the thought of God. They think a great deal more about worldly advantage than about God. If you were to talk to them about God they would not be at all concerned to hear you.

J.T. What strikes one is the inability on every hand to judge of the relative value of things.

F.E.R. Quite so. The fact is, in a rich community money becomes their god; it is the mammon of unrighteousness. Christendom is almost as dark as heathendom.

J.T. In the third chapter where darkness prevails light is introduced.

F.E.R. As the Lord Jesus said, light is come in; the testimony of God is there. God has come out to make known His thoughts toward men.

J.T. I think that it is often thought that the light refers to what the Lord was here in the flesh.

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F.E.R. I do not think you get the full light until you get the Son of man lifted up. It is there the light shines, in the death of Christ.

W.M. It is the way God took to come out.

F.E.R. The veil was rent from the top to the bottom. It was rent on the divine side.

R.S.S. The testimony of the gospel is not connected here with salvation, but with that which is even beyond it, life.

F.E.R. Still of course it covers it. Eternal life covers salvation.

R.S.S. But salvation is a means to that end. I suppose you could not be here in the enjoyment of eternal life unless you were in the good of salvation.

F.E.R. It all goes together.

J.T. Is it not right to say, you could not be clear from death in your spirit unless you are in the sphere of life?

F.E.R. If you have come into the christian circle you have come into the ark, and the ark was salvation to Noah. You are saved there. The great difficulty in the present day is that many people do not very well come into salvation, because they really remain more or less in the world. I admit it is a christianised world, but the world is there. Salvation is connected with baptism, "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us", they came in through the water into the ark. That is where people properly are now. They are in the house of God, and salvation is there, and there is no salvation out of it.

W.M. The washing of regeneration is needed to bring us into the new place.

F.E.R. That probably refers to baptism.

J.T. That is not much use as a text for the gospel.

F.E.R. With a very great part of christians salvation lies as a term. They do not know much about the reality of

A.H.E. Is not the ark a type of Christ?

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F.E.R. Yes, but the christian circle is Christ here.

G.W.H. Would you say the divine thought in connection with this type is the bringing of water to satisfy the thirst of the world?

F.E.R. To satisfy the thirst of man. The Spirit attaches us to Christ and the effect is that you enter into the apprehension and understanding of conditions which exist in Christ. You come under those conditions and thus into eternal life.

G.W.H. I suppose the effect is to bring us into correspondence with Christ.

F.E.R. The first thing is to come into conditions, the other follows. When a child is newly born it comes into conditions in which it was not before; that is, it comes into the conditions of rule, atmosphere and light. It is born with a body and lungs and eyes, but until it is born these functions do not come into exercise; then the child finds all the conditions existing. And so it is when we are born spiritually, we come into the apprehension of conditions which exist in Christ. Then it is we come into eternal life. What we ought to be earnest about is to maintain healthy conditions. I have no doubt whatever that plenty of christians in the present day are struggling to maintain a kind of christianity in the world, but there is an atmosphere in the world that stifles all spiritual life.

R.S.S. Salvation really brings you out of that.

F.E.R. You have salvation in the fact of being brought out of it. Salvation belongs to the christian circle, really the house of God. God has placed it there.

R.S.S. And it delivers you from this present evil world and your associations in it.

F.E.R. You come into entirely different associations where the very air you breathe is the love of Christ, "Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren". That is the atmosphere of the christian circle.

R.S.S. Would you say that eternal life is really the

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entering into the new conditions and salvation is coming out from old ones?

F.E.R. Exactly. We are saved from the old by being brought into the new, but it is the Spirit that brings you into the new. Baptism and the Spirit bring into the new conditions.

W.M. So that eternal life is always presented in Scripture as the moral end.

F.E.R. It is life in the christian circle and death to the world.

G.R. You get that word in Ephesians, "Awake, thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light".

R.S.S. I suppose the reason we are so little in the enjoyment of eternal life is that we are not careful to see that we get clear from those associations.

F.E.R. Then there is another thing that enters in, that is the state of the church. I do not believe for a moment that in the existing state of things it is possible to realise things as they did at the beginning.

J.T. That makes the situation very difficult. The thing may be plain enough to us, but the realising of it is a different matter.

F.E.R. I do not believe it would be of the Spirit of God to allow us to completely ignore or be unaffected by the condition of the church.

J.S.A. And yet what we are not directly responsible for we have to accept.

F.E.R. You get the same thing in the last days of Israel, there was a godly and pious people who were going on according to God; they spake often one to another, but they were affected by the general condition of Israel. Take Simeon for instance, waiting for the coming of the Lord, saying "lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word: for mine eyes have seen thy salvation". Just think what an anomaly, wanting to depart in peace when he had seen God's salvation. He ought to have wanted to live. But he knew Israel was going to

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reject Christ. He said, "this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against". Therefore Simeon does not pray to live. He virtually says, I have come to an end of all expectation; I have seen the desire of all flesh, let me depart in peace.

R.S.S. It is greatly in contrast to Hezekiah and both were Israelites.

F.E.R. Simeon was a man told by the Holy Spirit that he should not see death until be had seen Jehovah's Christ, and he was content to pass away because he saw what the presentation of Christ to Israel would mean.

J.T. The eunuch on the same line was also content to accept it.

Do you think it would be well to accept the condition of things at the present time; the tendency is to set up something pretentious.

F.E.R. I think brethren have been diligent to set up a nice little pattern of the church.

J.T. And to call that the assembly of God at Rochester or elsewhere.

F.E.R. Something of that kind.

J.T. What one notices is that that seems to drown individual faith in the Lord and resting in Him.

F.E.R. I have said many times if I were challenged as to my connection with any body of christians on earth I would say that I have no connection with any body special and I would mean it.

R.S.S. You do not mean any person?

F.E.R. Any person if you like.

W.M. You mean that you are connected with all christians.

F.E.R. I have no more connection with one than another; the only difference is we cannot all walk together, but walking does not establish any special connection.

R.S.S. Does not the question of fellowship come in?

F.E.R. Fellowship is universal. In a way I have fellowship with persons in system as with others.

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W.L.P. How far would fellowship go with christians in system?

F.E.R. I would seek to walk in the light as God is in the light, and if another man does that I would walk with him.

W.M. You can take a longer walk with some people than with others.

F.E.R. If a man has his elbows out you cannot walk very close to him.

R.S.S. We speak of 'our fellowship'.

F.E.R. If you mean christian fellowship I do not mind. If you mean a special fellowship I object very much.

R.S.S. Would you not speak of a person being received into fellowship?

F.E.R. We only admit that that man is fit to walk with christians anywhere.

W.M. When you speak of our fellowship you mean christians anywhere.

F.E.R. Exactly. We have to get out of the idea of a special and select community which is a little pattern church.

W.M. If a person is put away, he is put out of the whole church on earth.

F.E.R. We put a person away because that person is not fit to walk with any christians, not because he does not please us. He is engaged in such a course of conduct that he is not fit to walk with any christians. You want to be very sure that he is not fit for the company of any christians before you decline to walk any more with him.

J.T. We shall have to think about that a good bit.

F.E.R. The more you think of it the better. I have thought of it a good bit myself.

A.H.E. The danger of the other thing is that we become pharisaical.

F.E.R. And are very well content with it. I think we ought to contend earnestly in the present day against what we may call brethrenism.

J.S.A. One great beauty of the writings of John is that it is the moral side, nothing ecclesiastical that is in view.

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F.E.R. So, too, when you come to 2 Timothy you do not get a word about anything ecclesiastical -- all is moral. You have to be a vessel unto honour. Then again, "Flee also youthful lusts".

J.T. It is a very natural thing to break bread with people.

F.E.R. It is right to walk together if you are agreed. Then we are right in seeking as far as we possibly can to act in the light of the church, but with the sense that we are not the church. That is the only guidance or direction that we have. We do not assume to be anything, but to act in the light of the church. I could plead with God in regard of it.

J.T. It is quite natural we should seek to get all the light we can to make the most of the situation.

W.M. What we have belongs to all.

G.W.H. We avail ourselves of it and the others do not.

F.E.R. It is a great thing to get into the region of the Spirit; to retire from all that is of flesh and man and human order. There is no real christianity outside of the Spirit of God.

G.W.H. And all pretension of any kind is contrary to that.

Ques. That being the case, can you put a person out of fellowship?

F.E.R. What that means is, that I am not going to walk with him, if he is a wicked person. You get a man who is a liar or a perjurer or a thief, I am not going to walk with that man. That is a simple thing to my mind. As to the mere form of putting him away from fellowship, that does not matter to me.

J.T. You say you cannot. What about others?

F.E.R. They must give him up, too, or I cannot walk with them.

J.S.A. In 2 Timothy you get permanent instruction for individuals. If I find any going on with God I am bound to go on with them.

G.R. You made a remark about the region of the Spirit.

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Being in that region seems to be apart from the world and the flesh, because He convicts the world of sin and He resists the flesh.

F.E.R. That is what I maintain. If you get there you get out of the world and the flesh and human order. All christendom is set up according to human order. They were tested in early days, and then in order to check the evil, they set up the best order they knew, but it was human order. I have no doubt the introduction of elders and bishops came in as human order to check evil. If you get into the region of the Spirit you get outside all human order. You cannot have any clergy there. In the earlier days elders and deacons were men full of the Holy Spirit. We have to go back to where things began, to get into the region of the Spirit, and then you get outside of all human order and organisation.

W.M. These men undertook their work in the power of the Spirit.

G.W.H. The office was a spiritual one rather than official.

F.E.R. What they did they had to carry out by the Spirit.

J.T. I want to find out a little more about the man you could not walk with. Cannot the saints act in the light of the church?

F.E.R. I think they have to act in the light of the church; that you cannot have fellowship with such a person.

Ques. How about a christian in system? Would you speak of him as a brother?

F.E.R. Yes, unless he was guilty of some bad course.

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LIBERTY TO SERVE GOD

Luke 1:67 - 80; Luke 24:44 - 53; Acts 13:46 - 49

What I may call the first great lesson of the many that we have to learn as christians is that of the righteousness and faithfulness of God. Around us in the world there is everything to call this in question. So you can easily understand how important it is. Then there is another point connected with it; it must be the moral foundation in our souls. If you have not some sense of the righteousness and faithfulness of God, you have not a God on whom you can rely. Reliance and confidence on God are all founded on that. There may be but a poor sense, but any sense of the righteousness and faithfulness of God is a wonderful stay.

Now, as I said, the knowledge of the righteousness and faithfulness of God is really the foundation in the soul of every believer. In the most elementary of Paul's epistles, the epistle to the Romans, the great point is that Christ has come out and accomplished redemption in witness of the righteousness and faithfulness of God. That is the subject of the epistle. Jesus is set forth as a mercy-seat to declare God's righteousness, that is, in redemption. God has declared His righteousness in regard of all men in grace.

The law in a sense witnessed the righteousness of God, but in the way of demand, and rightly so, too, because God had rights, but it was no good to man, because man could not answer to the demand, but in redemption God sets forth His right in grace, for redemption is His right, and that in grace, so that He might be able to communicate His Spirit to the believer. That is the difference between the law and the gospel, but in either case there is the witness of God's righteousness. The apostle speaks of the righteousness of God being witnessed by the law and the prophets, but it has been declared in redemption.

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Redemption meant God taking up man's liabilities so that He might impart to the believer the gift of the Spirit. That is the first part of the epistle to the Romans; but there is another part, and that is the declaration of the faithfulness of God, for the position of the Jew, as scattered over the face of the earth, and not having come into the fulfilment of the promises, has called in question the faithfulness of God. That point is taken up in the latter part of the Romans, and the faithfulness of God is vindicated in Christ just as in the first part the righteousness of God is vindicated in His present dealings in grace. So although the gentiles have a place for the moment in the olive tree, yet if they continue not in the goodness of God they will be broken off, and the Jews will be grafted into their olive tree. All will prove and experience the mercy of God.

I have referred to that because it is the subject of the most elementary treatise to believers. God will do right, and nothing but right, and God is faithful after all. It is a great thing for us all to apprehend.

No one can truly know anything about the love or the holiness of God until they have come to a sense of the righteousness and faithfulness of God.

Now you get the same principles brought out in the gospel of Luke. We might sing this song of Zacharias, the application of which is undoubtedly to Israel. It does not go beyond Israel, and outwardly and nationally what is spoken of in the song has never yet been fulfilled. John the baptist was born as a witness of it. He was to be the forerunner, "And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways; to give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins". The song is prophetic. Zacharias spoke by the Holy Spirit, making known nothing new; but confirming what God had previously declared of His thought with regard to His people Israel. But though outwardly the song has never been fulfilled, I am going to show you it has been fulfilled

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in principle. And it has been fulfilled in such a way as that the gentile should be brought into it.

Now referring again to what I was speaking of, that is, righteousness and faithfulness of God, it is remarkable that it is what the Lord in Psalm 40 takes up continually. He says, I have declared Thy righteousness and faithfulness. This was in His ministry down here. And now both are witnessed in Christ on high, for on the one hand He is the expression of God's righteousness, and at the same time He is the Deliverer who is to come out of Zion to turn away ungodliness from Jacob. All the hopes of Israel are bound up with Christ at the right hand of God.

There are two great thoughts in this song, salvation and light. It is with these I want to take up your thoughts. They were in the mind of God for His people. Notice verses 69 to 72, and 74 and 79. It is remarkable that though Zacharias was the father of John, and what was celebrated was the birth of John (the Lord was not yet born), yet Zacharias said but few words about John. You will find a great deal about Christ. John was not the horn of salvation; Christ was that. John was not of the house of David; Christ was of the house of David. Then the day-spring from on high to give light to them that sit in darkness was not John but Christ. John had his own place as the friend of the Bridegroom, "thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways", but the whole song is a prophetic celebration, by the Spirit of God, of Christ -- He was the horn of salvation and the light; that is, the dayspring from on high to give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.

But to revert to the thought of salvation and light, the two blessings which God proposes for His people. Evidently it is a great thing for people to get light. Nothing could be greater, and salvation is equally important. It contemplates this, that the natural man is in darkness and

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is at the same time exposed to enemies; this was the position of Israel, and the thought of God with regard to Israel was that they might have light instead of darkness and salvation in place of fear of enemies. All this will be fulfilled in regard of Israel hereafter. They will be awakened nationally and brought into the light of God; they will learn what is in the heart of God toward them -- and in it there is an object in view, that they may serve God in holiness and righteousness all the days of their life. Figuratively this was accomplished when Israel was brought out of Egypt; they were brought into the wilderness, and in being brought into the wilderness, they were in a sense brought into the light of God. They had the glory of God, the ark of the covenant, and God spoke to them; they had salvation from the Egyptian, and the point was that they should serve God in holiness and righteousness all the days of their life.

Now though this song will in result be accomplished in regard of Israel, it is sad to meditate upon the present condition of Israel, scattered abroad and abiding for many days without ephod or teraphim, with neither king nor prince; yet the Spirit of God contemplates their being brought into the light of God and into God's salvation that they may yet serve Him without fear in holiness and righteousness all the days of their life. That is a very blessed thought for the end must be that men should serve God. The thought of God is not that man should serve himself, but that in liberty he might serve Him. Pharaoh proposed that the people should remain in bondage and serve God, but that would not do. It was necessary that the people should be delivered from the hand of their enemies if they were to serve God.

Now the horn of salvation has been raised up and the dayspring from on high has visited Israel. It had not come to pass when Zacharias spoke, but now it has come to pass. The prophet was there but John was the pledge of more, the pledge of Christ. John was in a, sense born miraculously and was the forerunner of Christ, and now

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Christ has come; a light to those that sat in darkness and in the shadow of death.

If you turn to Luke 24:49 - 53, what I will call your attention to is, that what Zacharias spoke of has been fulfilled. At the end of the gospel and in the beginning of the Acts of the Apostles we have nothing but a remnant of the Jews; those are not gentiles. I ask any one whether all that Zacharias spoke of was not fulfilled. Do you not think that in the early part of the Acts of the Apostles there were people brought into the light of God who realised that the dayspring from on high had visited Israel? It is true that Christ had been crucified, but He had gone up on high and the Holy Spirit had come, the dayspring had visited them. They realised that God had raised up a horn of salvation in the house of His servant David? Peter pressed in his preaching that when David spoke of resurrection he did not speak of his own resurrection but of Christ; that is the first thing; they had light. And they were made acquainted through the preaching of the apostles with what was in the mind of God toward them. The apostles preached and urged upon them forgiveness of sins, on the condition of repentance, because forgiveness of sins was in the mind of God toward them. God had raised up Jesus to be a Prince and a Saviour to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. Then there was another thing; they had salvation from enemies and from the hand of all that hated them. God had not yet destroyed their enemies, but, none the less, they had salvation. At first, after the death of Christ, the disciples were very much in fear of the Jews, but the Lord delivered them from that fear. They were delivered from the fear of man and of death and of Satan -- from the power of all their enemies. There were enemies and very real enemies. You see God has other ways of delivering people than by destroying the enemies. If God saw fit, and He will see fit one day, He could destroy the enemies, but the enemies are not yet destroyed but believers are delivered from their power. The disciples had felt their power; we see

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that especially after the death of Christ, "the doors were shut ... for fear of the Jews", but they were delivered out of the hand of their enemies. God gave to them the Holy Spirit which carried them above fear. I ask any thoughtful person here whether in principle all that was not accomplished. The disciples after the ascension were in the temple continually, praising and blessing God, waiting for the advent of the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit came, and confirmed them in that which they were doing. They had light, and salvation from their enemies and from the hand of them that hated them -- the Sadducees and the chief priests and Satan and the fear of death. They were delivered from the power of all so as to serve God. They came together continually to serve God, for God had given deliverance to that end. We should be prepared ever to serve God. Sometimes we are content with an occasional hour or two, but this only indicates how low down we are, because if God has come into give us light and salvation we should be thankful to serve God without fear in holiness and righteousness all the days of our life. I have an idea that many think their great concern is to follow their business, but that is not the end God has in mind for you. It is only incidental down here. God does not relieve you from that responsibility, but it is not His thought in regard of you. Egyptian toil was not God's thought in regard of Israel, but that they should serve Him. If you have followed me you will apprehend how that thought of God which will be literally fulfilled in Israel has already been fulfilled in a remnant that was saved at the outset, and God secured for Himself a worshipping company. Do you think the apostles ever gave it up all the days of their life or that they ever came again under the power of the enemy? They were delivered from their enemies and from the hand of all that hated them, and continued in the service of God in holiness and righteousness all the days of their life. Their power of continuance did not depend on them, but on the Spirit, and the Spirit is continued to us.

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Now, I want to point out that the thoughts of God are enlarged. These same thoughts that have come before us must go out to the gentiles. I would refer again to the verses in Luke 24:44 - 48, also to Acts 13:46 - 48. In the latter passage the apostle says it was necessary that "the word of God should first have been spoken to you". The word of God had not exclusive reference to the Jews; it was only necessary that in the faithfulness of God it should first have been spoken to them, but the word of God contemplated things beyond the Jew, and when they refused it it was spoken to the gentiles. God did not propose something different to the gentiles. He only waited until the Jew rejected it, then He showed that the word of God had as much reference to the gentile as to the Jew. I have spoken of the faithfulness of God, and how what was spoken of in the song of Zacharias was made good in a remnant, but now I come to the righteousness of God, and in the righteousness of God He must go out to the gentiles, "Thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem". "Thus it behoved" is an expression which indicates the righteousness of God, and therefore Christ had to die and to rise from the dead the third day.

I understand the passage to refer to redemption, and redemption is not a question merely of the grace of God, but of the righteousness of God. In Romans 3, where the point is redemption, the Spirit of God is declaring the righteousness of God. He says, God hath set forth Jesus "to be a propitiation though faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness". He does not say the grace of God, though the word 'grace' might be put where righteousness is. But the point is to declare His right, and grace is God's right. God's righteousness simply means what is right, and grace, through redemption, is that which is morally right. I have illustrated it in this way: if I had an inheritance and it was encumbered by mortgage, if I

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could discharge the encumbrance I would be right in doing so, and nobody else in the world could do it; that is, only the person to whom the inheritance belongs has the right of redemption. Now, supposing that men were the inheritance of God, because God created them; they had come under mortgage; that is, they were under liabilities by the judgment of God. Well, God alone had the right of redemption. No other had; man had no right whatever to redeem himself, nor could anyone have redeemed man, for nobody had any right to man except God. God saw fit to take up the liabilities, to discharge the mortgage; redemption is the exercise of a right that properly belonged to God. Therefore it is the declaration of His righteousness. I believe this is the principle on which the grace of God has gone out universally to men. You must remember that although Israel belonged to Jehovah, yet after all, all men belonged to God; God was not only Jehovah to Israel, but He was Creator of all men. Therefore, the Lord Jesus says "that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem".

Therefore, you get in this gospel the two principles which are of so much importance with regard to our knowledge of God, that is, the faithfulness and the righteousness of God, in which God has taken up His right of redemption in respect of all men. Therefore, the testimony of the grace of God has gone out to all men, and yet, even here, the faithfulness of God is seen. It was not until the Jew had put the word of God from him that the word went to the gentiles, and then the testimony is, "I have set thee to be a light of the gentiles". The dayspring from on high had visited the gentiles and salvation, that is, by the horn of salvation, had gone out to the ends of the earth. What God had proposed in His faithfulness to Israel, now went out world-wide to all men. Now Christ is a light to the gentiles and God's salvation to the ends of the earth. Christ stands in that way in relation to the gentiles.

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There are very few that apprehend this, but it is a great moment when people do apprehend it. If you look into the heart of God, what wonderful things you find there. God's heart has been laid bare to us, and you find there nothing but love. You know that the source and spring of everything which God does is love. Even judgment, strange as it may seem to say it, is of love, and I will tell you why, because it is not according to love to allow lawlessness. Therefore, love will put down lawlessness in judgment for the blessing of the universe. God is love. That is a most absolute statement, and we are permitted to look into the heart of God so that we might know what is in that heart in regard of man.

I admit that in that heart there are counsels of wisdom, but they are devised by love. It is a wonderful thing to be in the light of love; to be able to say like the apostle John in chapter 4 of his epistle, "we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him". That is light, and on the other hand, we have salvation. We are no longer in fear of enemies. Are you? It is a poor thing if you are; if you have the Spirit of God it is that you might not fear enemies. Are you afraid of death? Christ has opened a way through death, just as Moses opened a way through the Red Sea to Israel. We have passed out of death into life in a sense already; are risen together with Christ. Are you afraid of man? The apostle Paul was not afraid of man. He had to stand before the emperor, the greatest dignitary upon earth, but it gave him opportunity for the testimony. Are you afraid of Satan? You have only to be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might, and you need not be afraid of Satan for a moment. The truth is, salvation is in Christ, a horn of salvation has been raised up that we might be free from the fear of our enemies. There are those that hate us, but we are delivered from their power that we might serve God without fear in holiness and righteousness all the days of our life.

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I do not want to give you the idea that as things are in the world you can devote all your time to the service of God. It may be you have not spiritual energy for that, and circumstances do not admit of it, for we are not relieved from the common toil of humanity as a consequence of sin, and it is wise, for this serves us as a kind of discipline, but we get the divine thought that we might be without fear. Israel was before God without fear when they had passed through the Red Sea. They saw the Egyptian dead on the sea shore, and God was before them. They came, afterwards, through unfaithfulness, into fear of one kind and another, but they should have been without fear. When they were hungry they got the manna from heaven, and when they were thirsty they got water from the rock. Ought we to entertain fear or misgiving? We are delivered from our enemies and the hand of all that hate us that we might serve God in holiness and righteousness (because God will not have to say to impurity and lawlessness) all the days of our life. It is a blessed exercise. We cannot take it up every moment, but we can revert to it by the Spirit of God; that was God's thought with regard to Israel, and it has enlarged out to the gentiles according to the word of God. The word of God never could be narrowed up to Israel, because what is seen in scripture is God's righteousness. The right of redemption has given God claim in regard of all men.

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READINGS ON THE GOSPEL OF JOHN (3)

John 6:27 - 58

R.S.S. I think you said yesterday that John gives us a course of subjects, that in the first two chapters we have the establishment of the promises to Israel, and then in the third light coming in to dispel darkness, and in the fourth satisfaction coming in in contrast to thirst. What about these chapters?

F.E.R. The third is the testimony of God's love, and the fourth the gift of Christ, the living water, the well of water in the believer that springs up. In chapters 5, 6 and 7, you get the light in which Christ is presented to and known by the believer. The believer is not the point in chapters five to seven; it is rather Christ and the way in which He is apprehended. For instance, in the fifth chapter Christ is presented to us as the Son of God in life-giving power. Every one of us knows Him individually. Then in the sixth chapter He is presented as Son of man, the food of the believer. We all know Him in that way because the principle is, "He that eateth me, even he shall live by me", the living bread come down from heaven. It is an incarnate Christ, the food of the believer's soul. In the seventh chapter is a further point, Jesus glorified and the Spirit given; so that the chapters offer a complete presentation of Christ to us, as He is known by the believer, and in that sense there is the witness down here of Christ. Every one of us is a witness to Christ.

G.W.H. You were saying that in the third chapter He is presented as light to a world in darkness, and in the fourth as satisfaction to a thirsty world, and then in the sixth I suppose you would have Him as food for a hungry world.

F.E.R. That is true, but there is a sequence in the chapters; for if you had not the fourth you could not have

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the fifth, sixth and seventh, and apart from the third, you could not have the fourth. The first great principle is, God must be known in His mind toward man before there can be any communication of living water to us. Then it is by the Spirit that Christ is known in the light in which He is presented in the fifth, sixth and seventh chapters, because a great deal, practically, depends on the knowledge of Christ. The testimony of God's love meets the darkness of the world and the gift of living water meets the thirst of man, but when the thirst is met there is another point, in what light is Christ known, that is what these chapters answer.

J.T. Is the first thing in that connection that we hear His voice?

F.E.R. I think it is His work, "My Father worketh hitherto, and I work". It is the Son of God in life-giving power; we are a proof of His work, and we know the Son of God in the character of His work; that comes out in the case of the paralytic. You get an illustration of the power there, acting in the domain of death and raising man up in life. The Son quickens whom He will, "The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself".

J.S.A. And that goes on to actual resurrection.

F.E.R. Exactly, because you do not get quickening fully until it is applied to the body.

W.M. And thus, in that, there is witness to the power of Christ.

F.E.R. In the latter part of the chapter Christ appeals to the witnesses, and says the works that I do bear witness of Me.

G.R. What is the difference between the quickening in chapter 5 and that in the beginning of chapter 3?

F.E.R. The beginning of chapter 3 is not quickening, it is opening a man's eyes. Quickening is making a man to live. New birth does not make to live in that sense.

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W.M. I suppose the one is the beginning and the other is the end of God's work.

F.E.R. Yes, quickening in Scripture is presented in connection with the coming of the Lord, "as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive". "He that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you".

W.M. And therefore a person is not quickened until he hears the voice of the Son of God.

F.E.R. The proof that he is quickened is that he hears the word of Christ, and believes on the One that sent Him.

G.R. In that way he has passed out of death unto life.

J.T. The testimony in chapter 5 is the testimony of life in the scene of death.

F.E.R. But it is the testimony of the Son of God, the chapter differs from the two preceding chapters in that it opens with a sign and the sign signifies something; the sign was there in the miracle; what was seen signified what Christ is. The Son of God was there in life-giving power.

J.T. You say the testimony was more to Him that He had life in Himself.

R.S.S. What is the difference between a sign and a miracle?

F.E.R. A miracle does not necessarily go beyond an act of power, but a sign has some peculiar significance. It is a witness of something. So when Christ was born the angel said, "this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger". The babe was there, and the babe signified something.

J.T. The raising of the paralytic was a figure of the raising up of Israel.

F.E.R. And no doubt the chapter goes beyond that, because it says, "as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will". You can understand that you can place no sort of limitation on the Son of God, "the Son of God with

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power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead". That is what you get in this chapter.

J.S.A. It is the Person known as such by His works.

F.E.R. That is the light in which Christ is known to us. It is a great thing to know Him in that light, for there is no limit to His power. It will go on to the quickening of the body and the raising up of Israel, even to the raising up of all the dead. He deals with the entire domain of death, even to the resurrection of the wicked.

J.T. It is a great thing to have Christ before you in that way.

R.S.S. I suppose the great thing about Abraham was that he knew the God of resurrection.

Ques. Are all the miracles in John signs?

F.E.R. Yes. I think the number of miracles in John is limited to seven.

R.S.S. When it says, "This beginning of miracles", is that the beginning of signs?

F.E.R. He manifested forth His glory. It was a sign as to who was there. The raising up of the nobleman's son is another sign, and in these two chapters, the raising up of the paralytic and the feeding of the multitude are two more.

W.M. It shows that nothing ecclesiastical can be a witness to Christ.

F.E.R. It is His work only.

J.S.A. I think it is clear from the epistle that it is the knowledge of Christ in this character that gives us power over the world. "Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?"

F.E.R. The real truth is that He has power to bring about a world out of death. John 5 corresponds to Ephesians in a way. It is in a scene of death that the Son of God works according to the Father. The Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He seeth the Father doing. Therefore everything really is the work of God.

W.M. I suppose people are often hindered from seeing

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the significance of these chapters by looking at them as meeting their own need.

F.E.R. I do not think that is the point; it is well to keep before us that they present to us the light in which Christ is known to the believer.

G.W.H. Would you say the Son of God works in a world of death to bring out souls into a world of life?

F.E.R. I think it is to form a scene of life. He is the beginning of it, the Firstborn from the dead. He works in the scene of death to bring to pass a universe of life. It is in that way that He creates another universe. He might have done that readily, but the point is that He creates a world out of the wreck and ruin of this world.

J.S.A. And that process is going on now in souls, and the moment will come that bodies will be introduced into it and then it will be displayed.

F.E.R. In the coming of the Lord you get the quickening of everything.

W.M. In the meantime the darkness is passing and the true light already shines.

F.E.R. It is that which is true in Christ and the believer.

J.T. In bringing to pass the blessing of Abraham the Lord said to him "in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed". This will bring that to pass. I was thinking of Christ acting in accord with the Father, and the Father's commandment is life eternal.

W.M. What is the meaning of that expression, "His commandment is life eternal".

F.E.R. It is, I judge, an allusion to Psalm 133, "there the Lord commanded the blessing, even life for evermore". I think the Lord alludes to that in saying, "I know that his commandment is life eternal".

R.S.S. It is a remarkable thing that a man was displaced from the garden of Eden in order that he might not partake of the tree of life, and now God has brought in an order of things in which be can readily partake of it.

J.T. He said in this chapter, "Search the scriptures;

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for in them ye think ye have eternal life" and then He adds, "and they are they which testify of me". That would be that they pointed on to Him as the One who would bring it in.

G.W.H. Would you say God has been working all along in view of a world of life and blessing?

F.E.R. I think you get proof of that in Hebrews 11.

J.T. What is the idea of Zion being the centre of blessing where it is commanded?

F.E.R. Because Zion is God's great testimony. You see in Luke 24 it behoved that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name among all nations beginning at Jerusalem. Zion is His testimony. The gospel began at Jerusalem. Zion is witness of the eternal faithfulness of God. The ark was carried by David to mount Zion. Then they sang "His mercy endureth forever". To my mind it sets forth a risen Christ. Everything has been lost by man in the death of Christ, but in the resurrection of Christ everything is given back because resurrection comes in in the power of redemption. I do not mean to say that there is not a literal mount Zion, but the true mount Zion is Christ risen.

W.M. And being on the ground of resurrection it means sovereign mercy for all.

F.E.R. Resurrection comes in on the ground that God had been glorified and redemption accomplished.

G.R. Would you say the gospel of John supposes Christ risen? The truth is all connected with a risen Christ.

F.E.R. Yes, because we have the thought of the death of Christ from the outset. In the third chapter we read, "as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up".

G.W.H. You referred a moment ago to Hebrews 11. What do you mean by that?

F.E.R. It only shows this, that all along God was gathering out in divine dealings a company for heaven. All saints held to the promises and embraced them, but

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they could not be made perfect without us. It proves that God was gathering a company for heaven.

W.M. He had the world to come always in view.

F.E.R. And I have no doubt whatever faith had always the world to come in view. Enoch, Noah, and Abel had that dimly in view. It is not difficult to prove it.

G.W.H. In the world to come both creation and creature will enjoy the blessing of life.

F.E.R. It is then that every promise of God will be made good, "In thee shall all families of the earth be blessed". What has come to pass now in principle will come to pass in a literal way.

J.T. The present application would be in Galatians.

F.E.R. So too in this chapter, Christ has not yet come out in the character of this chapter in manifest quickening power, but He is known to us in that light; at the present time the great point is knowledge. All our blessing lies in the region of knowledge.

J.S.A. And that knowledge is by the Spirit.

W.M. It is eternal life to know Him.

F.E.R. You cannot refer to any christian blessing but what lies in the sphere of knowledge. It will not always be so. Knowledge will not form such an element in the world to come, when things become manifest, Israel for instance will be manifestly blessed in Him.

W.L.P. Is knowledge faith?

F.E.R. It is really.

J.T. The Lord did not affect things publicly at all. He left things as He found them pretty much.

F.E.R. And christianity has not done it.

J.T. When He went into heaven He was concealed and all depended after that on what came out of heaven.

F.E.R. You do not get the conditions of the world very much changed in christianity. Slaves were left where they were. Christianity did not even touch the government of the world. It left things where they were; but the Spirit brought in knowledge, and we can well understand that the first element of knowledge is the Son of God in

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life-giving power. Of course it would be a poor thing if all was not to be made manifest some day.

W.M. Do you think that principle is referred to in the epistle of John where it says, "ye know all things"?

F.E.R. There it is connected with the unction, "ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him". That is the character of christian blessing. As to eternal life the scripture says, "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent". So with Paul, the thought with him was, "That I may know him".

R.S.S. You said on one occasion the last thing we would care to give up is our knowledge of God.

F.E.R. If we gave it up we would give up everything.

W.L.P. Some look upon knowledge as the knowledge of doctrine.

F.E.R. I do not think knowledge of doctrine is much good. I do not think anybody is very much affected by doctrine. We hold doctrine and are very particular about it, but what a man is affected by is the knowledge of God.

W.M. And no man can teach that to another.

F.E.R. The truth is that we have been wakened up out of a world of death by the Son of God, to bring us into a world according to Himself.

J.S.A. And such transformation as there is is not in the outward circumstances but in the renewing of a man's mind.

J.T. It does not propose to alter our circumstances at all.

F.E.R. No, the outward man remains and perishes, but the inward man is renewed day by day. And there is another thing connected with that, and that is the renewing goes on while we look not at the things that are seen, but at the things that are unseen and eternal.

J.T. I have often thought of the Psalm 23 in that connection. The psalmist is perfectly secure, happy and

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contented, although his outward circumstances are not at all changed. The enemy was there and the wilderness was there and the valley of the shadow of death, but he was content and secure and happy.

F.E.R. The truth is that we are all in the wilderness, and the wilderness is really, on one hand, the scene where you meet the witness of death, because in the wilderness there is no burial, but there is death. Men and creatures perish; that is where we are; but the point is that while we are in the wilderness the Son of God is known to us, and in that knowledge we can enter into the land of promise. How do we enter into the land of promise? Israel entered into it literally by going through Jordan. I do not think there is any doubt that we enter into it in the knowledge of the Son of God in life-giving power. That is in capability to carry out all the will of God. We pass through Jordan, we are in the fellowship of the death of Christ, and in the knowledge of the Son of God we enter the land of promise.

W.M. And do you think the sixth chapter connects you with that, that God brings you into a region of satisfaction?

F.E.R. I think the point in the sixth chapter is the Son of man. Christ is known in another light; as the sustenance of the soul. You get appropriation there, Christ is appropriated as the sustenance of the soul.

W.M. And that, too, is anticipative of the world to come.

F.E.R. I think so, because He says, "and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world". Meanwhile He is appropriated as living bread, "my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he which cometh" (it is characteristic) "down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world". You get Christ in the chapter as Prophet, Priest and King. He is incarnate; the living bread from heaven. He has become incarnate to get close to man. He gives His flesh for the life of the world. By grace He comes into our condition, accomplishes redemption, and then ascends

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up where He was before, that is, as Priest. In the chapter He goes up into a mountain alone. It is in that way that Christ is presented as sustenance to the soul. He expresses to us the grace of heaven, and all brought within the reach of our appropriation. All that heaven could devise.

G.R. In connection with that, where would "Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood" come in?

F.E.R. That is a great part of it. The effect of that is that you get deliverance.

J.T. The disciples had a very meagre idea of what was there, because when the Lord proposes to feed the multitude they say, "There is a lad here, which hath five barley loaves, and two small fishes: but what are they among so many?" They had no conception of what was there in Christ.

F.E.R. But they had the five loaves and two fishes. They had something, though it was small, and it is extremely interesting that the Lord takes up what they had.

Rem. It was sufficient for them up to that time.

J.T. He made it go a long way.

F.E.R. People had a certain something until Christ came; five loaves and two fishes; they had a certain knowledge of God, but when Christ came it was multiplied infinitely. There was enough and to spare.

W.M. A sort of expansion of the Old Testament.

J.A. Enough grace presently to bring in every tribe of Israel.

F.E.R. It is a wonderful thing, that all the grace that heaven could devise is brought within the reach of man's appropriation. That is the bread, the sustenance of man's soul. Some one was alluding to the tree of life at the beginning, when man was created he had the tree of life. I take it the teaching is, that even then man was in a sense dependent. Man was not a god. God does not want a tree of life. Hereafter in the paradise of God there is a tree of life. It shows that life in the creature is ever dependent. I am sure that people need their constitutions built up

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spiritually. And to get the constitution built up you must have good food.

J.T. And there is plenty of good food.

W.M. There is bread and water.

F.E.R. "He that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst". John does not in the gospel give you the conditions of life. You get that in. the epistle. The gospel is taken up with the kind of person who lives, and the way in which the constitution is built up. A child newly born is born into the conditions of life; that is rule, atmosphere and light; but you do all you can to build up the child's constitution by food. Now that is what you get here in these chapters. You are alive in the fifth chapter and in the sixth chapter your spiritual constitution is built up by suitable food. The food is there for your appropriation.

W.M. Would you say the seventh chapter gives you the heavenly influences that flow from the saints having a good constitution?

F.E.R. The seventh chapter gives you the provision for Christ for the present moment, He is glorified above. You have the Son of God in life-giving power, and the Son of man a sustenance to the soul, and Jesus glorified and the gift of the Spirit. That is the light in which Christ is known to us at the present time and we are witnesses to Him. If anybody were to ask how we live (you cannot live without food), the answer I would give is, I live by Christ. "He that eateth me, even be shall live by me".

J.T. You do not live by your business nor family nor any comforts here.

F.E.R. No.

J.T. It makes a person wonderfully independent of what is here.

G.W.H. I suppose that just as Joseph's brethren came to him for corn, so we have to come to Christ.

F.E.R. Yes, but they came from Canaan to Egypt; we have not to do that. The bread is come to us. The hungry multitude had not to seek Christ. He was there. So in that

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way Christ has placed Himself within the reach of our appropriation. He has become a Man to bring Himself near to us; He has entered into death so that we might appropriate His death; and He has ascended up on high in order that He might serve us as Priest.

J.S.A. And the soul who apprehends and dwells upon Christ as set out in those conditions is built up.

R.S.S. Would exercise come in in connection with the discernment of good and evil.

F.E.R. I think so. You want to be fed with milk in the first instance, and solid food in due time.

W.M. It was said of Christ prophetically, "Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good".

J.T. The bread of God is brought within our reach here, but it is not connected with the present system. We have to leave that in a sense.

F.E.R. You get the death of Christ for that, "He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him".

J.T. I was alluding to Jacob leaving Canaan. If he stayed there he would have died like anyone else.

F.E.R. The Lord has provided an outlet for us. We appropriate Christ's death in order to get deliverance from the world. The apostle says, "I am crucified with Christ; nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me". The people wanted to make Christ a king. They acknowledged He was a prophet, but He would not be made a king. He goes into the mountain alone. We have not the King, but the Prophet and the Priest. He has become Man to be to us the great Prophet and He has gone up on high to be the Priest. Moses said, "The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me". He became Man to that end. We get the same thought in the epistle to the Hebrews, God has spoken to us in these last days by His Son. He has died in order to accomplish righteousness, and has gone up on high as the great Priest.

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R.S.S. In chapter 5 we have the apprehension of Christ as Son of God, and in the sixth appropriation.

F.E.R. There is no appropriation in chapter 5. We do not appropriate the Son of God. In chapter 5 He has ability to deal with the entire domain of death. It is a blessed thing to carry on the thought until He quickens all things.

W.L.P. That shows how necessary it is to know Him in all these characters.

F.E.R. If you put good food before a child the child naturally appropriates it and grows, and is formed by it. We are very careful with our children to provide proper food so that the constitution may be built up, and that is what has been provided for us in Christ. Suitable food has been placed within our appropriation that we may eat it and live by it.

J.K. You do not think that doctrine is food?

F.E.R. No, I think that gives you intelligence, but nothing is food save the living bread from heaven. I think an incarnate Christ crucified and ascended, is food.

J.T. What is the use of doctrine?

F.E.R. In a general way doctrine is to show you what you have, so that the thing may be put into definite shape in your mind, but that is not food. I attend to doctrine, because I want to have divine things in their proper shape, but food is dependent on the appropriation of Christ as brought within your reach.

R.S.S. Is it through affection we appropriate Christ?

F.E.R. I believe it is by the Spirit.

R.S.S. Does affection come in?

F.E.R. I think it promotes affection.

J.T. Would you say you appropriate what you need?

F.E.R. I appropriate food suitable. How thankful I am that Christ became a Man; that He died; that He is risen again, and gone up on high to intercede for me. Everybody ought to say so, and feel it.

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R.S.S. Is affection a proof that you have appropriated Christ? Mary Magdalene has been used as a figure of one who appropriated Christ.

F.E.R. I think so; and Mary of Bethany. She appropriated, and affection followed it.

R.S.S. She said they have taken away my Lord. She looked upon Him as her own, and we ought to look upon Him in the same way.

F.E.R. Yes, because everything He did was on our account.

G.W.H. What part does exercise play in this? Does it correspond to digestion?

F.E.R. I think it is indicated by the condition of the people at the beginning of the chapter. It was a hungry multitude; they felt they were in the wilderness; no bread, and a land of drought.

G.W.H. That led them to appropriate what was provided for them?

F.E.R. The grace of Christ provided food and they appropriated the food that grace provided. We are very unwise if we do not appropriate. People nowadays try to live by light reading, religious stories, and some try to live by hymn singing. Hymns may be a snare in the present day. The great point is to live by Christ.

J.T. To sit down, as it were, quietly and contemplate the Lord?

F.E.R. Meditate and assimilate and digest. It is really food that Christ has become on our account, digested into the life of our being. That is what food is, I take it. Take as much food as you will, it is only what you digest that nourishes you. So in divine things, it is not merely reading an immense amount of Scripture, it is what you digest that furnishes nourishment.

W.M. I suppose the use of ministry is to direct people's attention to all that is for them, but it can effect nothing in them.

J.T. It can locate the food for them?

G.W.H. What is really effected is by the Spirit.

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F.E.R. All; you cannot get anything except by the Spirit.

W.M. I suppose, however, saints could hardly get along without ministry?

F.E.R. I have been struck with regard to that by 1 Corinthians. There are two points: you have the temple of God and the Christ. I do not know whether you know that in natural things the general idea is that light is ether, that is, an exceedingly intangible kind of fluid; and the ether is set in vibration by the sun. I think that is what I see in Corinthians. The temple is where the oracles of God are, they are the ether. Then the body of Christ (where the gifts are) comes in; and thus the ether is set in motion. So you get the light and the gifts, and the light set in motion, so that it reaches people. Hence, gifts and ministry are important, as giving an impulse to the light.

T.H. Is teaching food, as the Lord said to Peter, "Feed my sheep"?

F.E.R. There it is more looking after them.

T.H. But it comes from Christ by another to me.

F.E.R. Yes, it would.

G.R. Could you give us a word on chapter 7?

F.E.R. I think chapter 7 completes all. It shows the position Christ has taken for the moment. Christ is risen and the Spirit is given, and out of the belly of the believer flow rivers of living water. You have not the feast of tabernacles yet, but out of the belly of the believer the living waters flow. What comes out in chapter 7 depends on chapters 5 and 6. If people do not know something about chapters 5 and 6, they will not understand much about chapter 7. We have come to the true feast of tabernacles, Jesus glorified.

W.M. It helps us when we see that the point of the chapter is what Christ is Himself, and not so much what He is for the saints.

F.E.R. It is the apprehension of what Christ is Himself.

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READINGS ON THE GOSPEL OF JOHN (4)

John 10:1 - 30

R.S.S. We left off yesterday with Christ glorified and the Spirit coming consequent on that. Why was it that the Spirit could not come until Christ was glorified?

F.E.R. Because, I think that Jesus glorified is a starting point, the point of departure in the accomplishment of God's purposes.

G.R. Is it that He must Himself, as in the character of Head, be in the place purposed for man?

F.E.R. I think so. "Thou hast made him to rule over the works of thy hands". "We see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, ... crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man". Everything had to come in under the Son of man, and therefore Jesus must be glorified to be in the place of supremacy above all. Not only above things on earth, but above things in heaven. He must be glorified before the Spirit could be given, and the Spirit is come to subdue everything. You have not the position until Jesus is glorified. Then the Spirit of God subdues everything according to the position.

R.S.S. I see the point more clearly than before, that He is now the beginning of everything. I suppose what had gone before was really laying the foundation for it.

F.E.R. Quite so, but the starting point is Jesus glorified. That is according to Psalm 8, "thou hast put all things under his feet". So, too, in Ephesians, He "gave him to be the head over all things to the church". He is set in the place of 'Head over all things', and is given as such to the church.

R.S.S. It is then all in marked contrast with what we get in the transfiguration, that is, from there the Lord really went down to the cross.

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F.E.R. Christ has gone up now in the value of redemption, so that everything can be taken up according to God's glory, and subdued to Christ.

F.C. So that the Spirit given is the Spirit of another Man.

F.E.R. Exactly.

G.R. Is it not also necessary that He should be completely apart from the present order of things so that the Spirit coming from there would lead us apart from it too?

F.E.R. Jesus glorified is really what brings in the feast of tabernacles. The feast of tabernacles typically presented the union of heaven and earth; you could not get the bond of union except in Christ. In the beginning God made the heaven and the earth, but there was not union in that sense, or at all events, communion. This must be brought about in a Man.

G.R. How do you connect the heavens with the feast of tabernacles?

F.E.R. The eighth day of the feast brings in the communion of heaven and earth -- the eternal and the temporal.

W.M. Do you look upon the Spirit as the link?

F.E.R. I look upon Christ as really being the point or centre; the Spirit brings witness of the glory of Christ and subdues everything, but really the bond between heaven and earth is Christ.

G.R. The angels ascending and descending on the Son of man.

F.E.R. So the Lord speaks of Himself in the third chapter, "no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven".

G.W.H. Would you say the effect of the report of the Spirit of Christ glorified is to bring the earth under the influence of heaven?

F.E.R. As a matter of fact the earth always has been under the influence of heaven.

G.W.H. I mean in a new way.

F.E.R. Yes.

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F.C. The last verse of the first chapter of John gives that.

F.E.R. Quite so. Now in these chapters, 8, 9 and 10, we have got a different subject. Up to the seventh chapter the subject in the main is life. We saw that in the third chapter, in which we have the testimony. In the fourth chapter the Spirit is in the believer as a well of water. Then in the fifth and sixth chapters we have Christ, in relation to life. He is the Son of God in quickening power and the living bread come down from heaven that man may eat, and live by Him. The subject of all these chapters is life, but chapters eight to ten give us light, and the effect of light is to change the appearance of everything down here. There are two effects which light has: one is, it exposes, and the other, it enlightens. And when you get things exposed, and on the other hand enlightenment, everything is changed, and the change is seen in the chapter we read. The change which was coming in is expressed by the Lord in a few words, "I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind". Evidently if those who do not see are made to see, and those who see are made blind, a revolution is produced down here.

G.R. What is the force of the term, "the light of life"?

F.E.R. I think that is what was seen in Christ morally, "he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life". In following Christ they had the light of life in Him.

G.R. The great contrast to commandments and ordinances.

F.E.R. You can see the application of the change we spoke of in the world. The gentile was born blind but has been enlightened. On the other hand the Jew professed to see, and in a sense did see, but has been made blind. That has brought about a revolution, simply by the coming in of light. The light tested everything. The Jew was tested in the eighth chapter and his true character brought out, but in the ninth chapter a man born blind is

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made to see. He apprehends the true character of things -- so that everything is revolutionised.

R.S.S. So that is the significance of the incident at the beginning of the eighth chapter, the woman taken in sin.

F.E.R. Yes, the Lord proved Himself to be the light of the world. There was no doubt about the sin of the woman, but the Pharisees were also exposed.

G.W.H. So light exposes that which is evil and enlightens those whose eyes have been opened.

F.E.R. That was the effect of the light that had come into the world; it was the test of everything.

G.W.H. The end of it was to direct the attention to the source of the light, would you say?

F.E.R. To my mind it is a necessary consequence of the light coming in. The Jew expected Messiah, but the Messiah came as light, and the consequence was that the condition of the Jew was exposed.

G.R. So that where there was enlightenment they were drawn to Christ, but where there was exposure they went away from Him.

F.E.R. There is a fearful exposure in the eighth chapter. The Jews were murderers and liars in principle and spirit. They were the children of the devil. They were perfectly tested by the presence of God, "Before Abraham was, I am". Not only was Messiah there, but God was there.

R.S.S. That is what you get in the fourth verse of the first chapter, "In him was life; and the life was the light of men".

F.E.R. The practical effect is to put the Lord outside of what was there. That comes out at the end of the chapter, where they tried to kill Him.

F.C. In the tenth chapter He leads His own outside.

F.E.R. Yes. The fact is that when Christ came, He came not to establish or confirm things that existed, but to bring in entirely new things. I do not think the Jew ever thought much more than that Christ would confirm all that was there, would confer honour on the nation;

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but He did not come in to that end. His coming in was the beginning of everything. It seems to me it could not be otherwise.

W.M. They used the Old Testament against Him, not seeing that He was establishing a new order of things.

F.C. Is it not important in speaking of the Jew to have in our minds that he represented man in the flesh?

F.E.R. Quite so, the fig-tree.

G.W.H. I suppose in His coming the whole Jewish system was to be judged. If He had come to patch it up or improve it, it would have been all right with them.

F.E.R. There was nothing to improve or patch up.

G.W.H. That is what John the baptist meant when he said, "the axe is laid unto the root of the trees".

F.E.R. The tree had been tested long enough, digged about and dunged, and there was no fruit; and it was now to be cut down and cast into the fire. I think it is very important to see that, when Christ comes in, of necessity He is the beginning of the creation of God. Everything must take its start in Christ. You may say that it is difficult to fit this in with God's previous dealings but of necessity He must be the starting point.

Ques. Is that the meaning of the scripture that in all things He might have the pre-eminence?

F.E.R. Whatever there might have been before, when the Son of God comes in, of necessity He must be the starting-point. Up to that point God had been gathering a company to be associated with Christ in heaven. Then the Jew had been brought provisionally into certain blessings on earth according to the promises of God, but the provisional dealings of God in regard of the Jew came to an end because the state of the Jew was exposed. God had served His purpose, and now the Son of God becomes the starting-point. He must be the first to rise from the dead, and in resurrection He is the beginning.

Ques. Is it not in that way the starting-point for Israel?

F.E.R. Yes, but then Israel does not come in first. Israel had a place, and it is in connection with Israel you

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get the thought of sonship first applied. Israel was brought into the place of God's son, but did not answer to it. The church then comes in, and the entire heavenly company, the twenty-four elders, take priority of Israel. Israel comes in eventually. Provisionally it had the first place in the dealings of God, but it has lost its place. It will come in in its own proper place.

A.H.E. Is Hebrews 11 a company prepared for heaven?

F.E.R. Yes.

A.H.E. Christ says, "I am the true vine", then the people of Israel is the spurious vine.

F.E.R. He becomes the starting-point of everything. God began with Israel in dispensational dealings, but He took them up provisionally for there were other things in the mind of God, and they were to have pre-eminence over Israel. So in the Hebrews you get the general assembly and church of the first-born which are written in heaven, and God the Judge of all, and the spirits of just men made perfect.

Ques. What would you say that the Lord meant by that expression, "Before Abraham was, I am"?

F.E.R. It means He was Jehovah. You cannot understand the truth of the eighth chapter unless you see that the Jews were tested by God Himself. Hence in the chapter their condition comes out in the most terrible and naked way.

G.R. Really the fulfilment of Isaiah 50 "Wherefore, when I came, was there no man?"

F.E.R. Exactly. So, "Ye are from beneath; I am from above". He says, "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him". The truth was that they came in the character of their father.

Ques. Would you say man's heart was not fully exposed until the true light came?

F.E.R. Until God came. The fact is, people do not know what a terrible thing lawlessness is. It is bound to

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come out in the way of hatred, and hatred comes out in the way of murder.

F.C. You mean the exercise of the human will.

F.E.R. Yes, Adam did not commit murder, but Cain did. In him you get hatred, the effect of lawlessness.

W.M. So in the eighth chapter you have lawlessness and in the ninth chapter attachment.

F.E.R. You have, but then the eyes of the blind man had been opened by Christ to apprehend the whole state of things down here. The state of things had been exposed in the eighth chapter, but in the ninth chapter the blind man apprehends it. The practical result is that he finds himself outside of it all, as Christ is outside of it. Those provisional dealings of God in connection with Israel were all over. Israel is rejected. They were liars and murderers. Then the Lord shows in the tenth chapter what He was doing. He was leading out the sheep, and He has other sheep and them also He must bring, and there would be one flock and one Shepherd, outside of that order of things with which God had been dealing. The point of it all is that Christ is the starting-point.

W.M. I suppose in that way the blind man overcomes the world by having his eyes opened to the Sun of another world.

F.E.R. Really he is excommunicated; they cast him out.

W.M. Do you think that in these chapters it is not so much the blessing of saints that is in view as the present effect of Christ having come into the world?

F.E.R. Yes, it is the moral effect. Christ is now outside of it. He left it in death. The blind man is outside; but in the tenth chapter the Shepherd is the beginning and everything takes character from the Shepherd. We have not to do with judaism but with Christ. He says: "I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly". The Jew will come in, in due time, but God has other purposes to fulfil. What we see in christendom is that it has gone back to the idea of a fold. There had been a fold, and what few sheep there were had been

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kept in it, but the time for an enclosure is over now. You get the Roman Catholic and Presbyterian and Wesleyan and many other folds now; they have all set to work to make enclosures where, according to their idea, the sheep are safe. They are not a bit safe. There are plenty of wolves in these folds, They can get in readily enough.

W.M. There is a kind of rivalry among the folds as to which is best.

F.E.R. Yes, but they are all useless, They do not keep the wolf out. The wolf of bad doctrine gets into these folds. They are no security for the sheep. They are better outside. I would not care to be in any one of the folds.

W.M. But there is not any fold now in reality, but simply a flock.

F.E.R. Exactly, because Christ has come in. He says, "I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture". Well, if the sheep are saved and go in and out and find pasture they do not want a fold; they are saved. They do not fear the wolf.

G.R. In christianity everything is unfolded in a Person; it is not a question of doctrines and ordinances, though you have both.

F.E.R. And you do not want a fold.

W.M. The entering in is entering in to God, I suppose.

F.E.R. That is the way I understand it; you enter in by Christ into the enjoyment of God. Christ is the way into the knowledge of God, because He came out to reveal God. He has declared God. In the knowledge of God we are saved and go in and out and find pasture. Salvation, liberty and pasture are all in the knowledge of God.

W.M. No one could reveal the Father but the Son.

G.W.H. That is why He said, "by me".

F.E.R. Exactly, "by me if any man", It does not matter who. It is on the very largest possible ground, "if any man".

W.M. That is, by Him instrumentally.

F.E.R. Through Him we both have access by one

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Spirit to the Father. Any one who ignores Christ, who has come out to declare God, could not possibly enter in.

J.A. Would you explain the second verse.

F.E.R. Christ entered into the fold, that is, into the Jewish order of things in order to lead the sheep out.

W.M. And "to him the porter openeth".

G.W.H. It has been said that under the Jewish order you have a circumference without a centre, but in christianity you have a centre without a circumference. Is that true?

F.E.R. The Jewish order was an enclosure, but there was no centre in it. In christianity you have no enclosure. If by the circumference you mean an enclosure, I think it is all right.

Ques. What is the significance of "To him the porter openeth"? Does it mean that He had a perfect right to enter in?

F.E.R. I think it is that Christ entered in legitimately and the porter gave Him access to the sheep.

W.M. He recognised His right to enter.

F.C. Would you connect it with being baptised in Jordan and identifying Himself with the remnant?

F.E.R. I would rather attach a moral idea to it, that is, that the Lord found a way of approach to the sheep.

G.W.H. Speaking of no one having access to the Father but by Christ, does that give light on the verse in John 14, "no man cometh unto the Father, but by me"?

F.E.R. No one knows anything about the Father but by the Son. It is only by the appreciation of Christ that any one could approach the Father. We would be in the dark in regard of God except by Christ. Men may speculate and have notions, but there is nothing that can assume to be a revelation except Christ.

R.S.S. It is very striking that in the gospel of John you have so much about divine Persons, not only Christ but the Father and also the Spirit.

F.E.R. Because John is the backbone of all the gospels, for the reason that it is the revelation of God. In John we

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do not see Christ looked at officially as in Matthew and Luke; it is not Christ presented in that light, but the Son revealing the Father and the Father coming out in the Son. So the gospel is the revelation of God in the fullest sense.

W.M. I suppose that is the reason you do not get forgiveness spoken of in John.

F.E.R. Yes.

G.W.H. Would you say the knowledge of divine Persons is the greatest thing that can be presented to man? Is it greater than the knowledge of divine things?

F.E.R. But then divine things take their character from divine Persons. That is what you get here. The sheep take their character from the Shepherd. You do not get that in this world. Sheep are not like the shepherd. "I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father". They have taken their character from the Shepherd. No one ever heard of such a flock as that.

R.S.S. In the gospel of John we get, "these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God". I think from what has been said we can see how Christ comes out as the Son of God, but how does He come out as the Messiah in John?

F.E.R. That comes out remarkably. You remember what the woman of Samaria said in the fourth chapter, "I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things". Then the Lord said, "I that speak unto thee am he".

R.S.S. But how does He come out as the Messiah?

F.E.R. Because He is the anointed Man who communicates the Spirit.

G.R. Then does not the expression the good Shepherd involve that?

F.E.R. He is the Shepherd of the sheep. He was the Messiah; the literal meaning of Messiah is "the anointed". In chapter 1, verse 41 Andrew says to Peter, "we have found the Messias"; that is what Andrew felt, and he

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brought him to Jesus, and when Jesus beheld him He said, "Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone". Then afterwards Nathanael says, "thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel", recognizing Him according to the second Psalm. Then the woman of Samaria hailed Him as the Christ. He was the anointed Man and could communicate the Spirit. That is what I understand by Messiah, but then He was the Son of God -- the Son who revealed the Father. We get all the light of God brought out, in which man can live.

R.S.S. In connection with what you said a moment ago that the Messiah is the anointed Man who communicates the Spirit; that would be in keeping with what John said, speaking of Christ, "He shall baptise you with the Holy Spirit". The meaning of the word Messiah is the anointed one, and in a certain sense we become anointed ones.

F.E.R. So the apostle says in 1 Corinthians 12, "so also is the Christ". You have the Christ down here, in the saints. The saints are the Christ, not personally of course, but by being anointed.

W.M. I suppose that everything indicated by God in connection with Israel is maintained spiritually in the church.

F.E.R. But now you have the true flock. Israel was a flock and Moses was the shepherd, then Moses died and Joshua was the shepherd. Then Joshua died and for a long time they had no shepherd. Then David came, and he died, and Solomon did not prove much of a shepherd. And when the Lord came the people were left like sheep without a shepherd. Now what has come to pass is this, the Shepherd has come in, and there is a flock which takes its character from the Shepherd, and that flock is not provisional at all. It is a flock which, though on earth, in its proper character belongs to heaven.

G.R. Do you connect with that Jacob's blessing on Joseph, "from thence is the shepherd, the stone of Israel"?

F.E.R. Christ will be that in regard of Israel, but in the

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meantime He has come out as the good Shepherd, having a flock which is according to Himself.

Ques. Is that the meaning of Hebrews 13, that great Shepherd of the sheep?

F.E.R. Quite so.

G.R. The Lord came really of the tribe of Judah and it was in blessing Joseph that Jacob said, "from thence is the shepherd, the stone of Israel". Is that looking at Joseph as a typical person in his being rejected?

F.E.R. It may be. The genealogy belongs to Judah.

W.M. Have you any idea why all these things are indicated in Israel first and then taken up vitally in Christ afterwards?

F.E.R. I think it is on the principle, first the natural then the spiritual.

G.R. Does it not show what has been said so often of late, that nothing fails in God's hands?

F.E.R. Now the point is you do not get a provisional flock, but you have the real thing. What you get in chapter ten is not a kind of fold consequent on the failure of Israel, but a flock that is according to the Shepherd. That is what characterises the present order.

W.M. Evil is so thoroughly exposed by the knowledge of God.

F.E.R. Exactly. Since one has had grace to leave the fold one has been a great deal safer than in the fold.

G.R. The thought is very precious that the flock takes character from the Shepherd. You get the thought of intimacy.

F.E.R. I think so, but it all lies in nature. They are cognate. It is kindred, morally.

W.M. I suppose it is morally kindred to the passage, "be that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one".

R.S.S. Also the passage in Matthew 16, "upon this rock I will build my church".

F.E.R. They are stones and upon this rock I will build My assembly. So Peter takes it up in 1 Peter 2, "To

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whom coming, as unto a living stone ... Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house". You are kindred to the Living Stone. People have made a mistake about priesthood. A great proportion of christians in the world think that they are called to be priests, but none was ever called to be a priest except Aaron and Christ. Aaron's sons were not called to be priests. Christians are not called to be priests. They are priests like the sons of Aaron on account of their kindred to Aaron. We are priests as being kindred to Christ. He is the Living Stone and coming to Him as unto a Living Stone we are built up living stones.

G.R. One can see why the subject of life comes out first and then light. If there is to be kindred there must be life.

F.E.R. Exactly. So you could not get the thought of the flock without life.

W.M. So the sheep live in the light of God.

F.E.R. But also in the life of Christ.

G.W.H. We are the same stock and kind; that is what is meant by 1 Corinthians 1:30, "But of him are ye in Christ Jesus".

F.E.R. Quite so.

W.M. In connection with this passage, the Lord was not speaking to the sheep; He was not comforting them.

F.E.R. No, only about them; but it is a most important point to apprehend that whatever provisional dealings there may have been up to the coming of Christ, Christ is real starting-point of everything, of God's universe.

G.W.H. Speaking of the Shepherd, in Psalm 22 I suppose you get the good Shepherd giving His life for the sheep, and then in Psalm 23 the great Shepherd who takes care of the sheep.

F.E.R. Yes. Chapters 11 and 12 of John are comparatively simple, for they are the testimony which God saw fit should be rendered to Christ previous to His suffering; that is, as Son of God, King of Israel and Son of man.

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You get a witness to Him in all three aspects. The resurrection of Lazarus was witness to His glory as Son of God. Then in riding into Jerusalem He is saluted as King, and then the Greeks come up, which becomes the occasion of the Lord referring it to Himself as Son of man. These were witnesses which God gave to Christ when He was on the point of being offered.

G.R. It is important that we should be instructed as to who the Shepherd is. These two chapters bring it out. We hear His voice in chapter 10 and are separated by it; then these two chapters unfold to us who He is.

F.E.R. There is a witness borne to Him in chapters 5 and 6. In chapters 5 and 6 we see the Son of God and Son of man but not the King of Israel. He would not be made King. What we have in the present time is not exactly the King, but we have the Son of God and Son of man; but when witness is borne to Him in chapters 11 and 12, we get the Son of God, the Son of man and the King.

G.R. And as the King of Israel when He comes out, that is only temporary, but He is Son of man for ever.

F.E.R. But then John has in view the world to come. John does not look at eternal things in the gospel. So, too, in the epistle you get no teaching about eternal things. At the end of the Revelation we are carried by the Spirit of God to the final issue, but the Spirit in Scripture does not deal in general with eternal things. There are only about six verses that refer to anything beyond the world to come. The testimony of christianity is to the glory of God in the present creation. God will take care of eternal things, but I am sure our minds are not suited now to take in eternal things, I mean things beyond the world to come.

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READINGS ON THE GOSPEL OF JOHN (5)

John 14:1 - 31

W.M. Do these chapters begin a new section of the gospel?

F.E.R. I think so. They are all connected with Christ leaving the world and the Comforter coming. We are brought in chapter 10 to the thought of the company. At all events a flock, which is near akin to a company. Down to chapter 10 everything is individual, for the subject is life. Now in these chapters we get a point further, and that is how the flock would be here in testimony for Christ. The Lord brings out the conditions under which they would be here. The thoughts of God are intimately bound up with testimony. If God took up Israel, the point was that Israel should be a testimony. It was not simply for their sakes that He took them up. All the world should have got the benefit of Israel. The world should have seen the blessedness of the people whose God is Jehovah. The gentiles should have been in a position to bless God on account of Israel.

A.H.E. But the name of God was blasphemed among the gentiles through the inconsistency of Israel.

F.E.R. Exactly, they were a false testimony and so the Lord speaks of Himself in contrast in the Revelation, I am "the faithful and true witness". Now in John's gospel Christ was about to leave, so the flock was to be here in testimony. Hence in chapter 13 they are put under obligation to one another. Then in chapter 14 we have the advent of the Comforter, for the disciples were not capable of supporting themselves. Then the conditions of testimony are seen in chapters 15 and 16. Chapter 15 gives abiding in Him and fruit-bearing, and in chapter 16 there is intelligence in Christ's things by the Spirit. These were the conditions. The same apply to us and qualify us to be here in testimony for Christ. We bring forth fruit

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that our fruit might abide, and have intelligence by the Spirit in the things of Christ. As the apostle prays in Ephesians 3, That ye "May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; and to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God". The thought in that prayer undoubtedly is testimony, the saints being fitted to be here in testimony to God.

W.M. Chapter 13 presents our obligations one to another, that we might be able to refresh one another.

F.E.R. One thing connected with that is that the traitor becomes manifest. I have no doubt if we were more really true to our obligations one to another, that the unfaithful would be more manifest. They would resent feet washing.

R.S.S. I am sure that is very important. It is a thing in which we fail greatly.

F.E.R. A great many things pass current among us because there is not enough recognition of our obligation to one another. If we were more faithful to one another a good deal would be exposed which now passes.

R.S.S. On the other hand, a good deal never would be allowed to be there. It would be judged at once.

W.M. People are afraid of one another instead of loving one another.

F.E.R. It is a point of the last moment to accept the obligation under which Christ has placed us to one another and to carry it out, too.

G.W.H. Faithfulness to one another is really a mark of love, is it not?

F.E.R. I think so. The Lord says, "If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet".

R.S.S. And then in the end of the chapter He gives them a new commandment.

F.E.R. That is in the light of Jesus glorified. The darkest night leads to the brightest day. In the Revelation the harlot rides the beast, and then there is the marriage

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of the Lamb's wife. So here, the darkest night was the betrayal of the Lord, but it gives way to the brightest day, "Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him". And it is in the light of that day we are to love one another. The traitor was a burden. His absence was a relief. The washing of one another's feet is a matter of great importance.

W.M. You do not mean removing defilement exactly.

F.E.R. It has that effect. The point is the way you set to work to do it. It is not exactly your object to remove defilement. We wash one another's feet because we are under obligation to serve one another. It is service. One of the qualifications for a widow to be taken into the number was that she had washed the saints' feet. She did not set herself to work to correct the saints, but to refresh them.

W.M. And in the act of refreshment the defilement goes.

F.E.R. You get revived and you throw defilement off.

J.S.A. I suppose if the desire of the Spirit were present in the heart, the actual service might be almost unconscious.

G.W.H. The way you would wash one's feet would be to minister Christ.

F.E.R. I think so. It would be better that Christ should be the subject when we are together instead of the weather and the crops and business and other details. It is much easier to talk about the things of the world than to talk about Christ, but we do not wash one another's feet by it.

A.H.E. I suppose that depends on what occupies the heart, "out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh".

G.R. What would be the force of that expression, "If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me"?

F.E.R. It is essential that Christ should wash us, but He may carry out the service mediately. He puts us under obligation to one another. It is His service, but it is done mediately. We do as He has done to us. What we carry out to one another is the service of Christ.

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G.R. I was thinking more of the words, "with me".

F.E.R. People will not have part with Him unless they come under the service. They will drop down into a kind of worldly christianity instead of having part with Christ.

G.W.H. Do you mean in the enjoyment of the Father's love?

F.E.R. I think outside of the course of things down here -- we often live in them, but Christ does not.

G.W.H. In chapter 12 He has been speaking of leaving the world.

F.E.R. He has gone to the Father and there He lives. We get the thought in Colossians, "If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God". That life is where Christ is.

W.M. And by the washing of the feet we are kept in the practical enjoyment of that life. Christ is our life.

F.E.R. I think you are maintained in freshness.

J.K. Feet-washing should be then a continual thing.

F.E.R. The mind of the Lord was to put the disciples under obligation to one another.

W.M. So that He washes our feet indirectly, not directly.

W.L.P. Of course that would take in more than defilement.

F.E.R. People get affected and defiled by the influences here. The influences of the world have a depressing effect spiritually.

J.S.A. That makes feet-washing a present necessity.

F.E.R. Yes, and I think we might do much more for one another than we carry out.

J.S.A. And that is why I referred to the importance of being in the spirit of it.

R.S.S. Would Timothy be a sample of this when Paul says, "I have no man like-minded, who will naturally care for your state"?

F.E.R. If we all cared for one another's state we would wash one another's feet.

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W.M. And Philemon again, "the bowels of the saints are refreshed by thee, brother". He washed the saints' feet.

R.S.S. I think we have had the thought that this only comes in when a person gets into a bad state, and it manifests itself.

F.E.R. I doubt if that is exactly the idea. The point of the chapter is to put us under obligation to one another. He goes on to say, "he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me".

W.M. How do you connect the exposure of Judas with feet-washing.

F.E.R. It came out immediately afterwards. What you will certainly find is that people who are unfaithful would not bear feet-washing. It is undoubtedly a test.

J.K. You would not say that feet-washing was going around finding fault with saints.

F.E.R. That is not the idea. Feet-washing is service. It was much better understood in eastern countries. For instance, the woman in Simon's house in Luke 7 washed the Lord's feet. She did not find fault with the Lord. It was attention and service.

J.S.A. It would be in the opposite direction to finding fault.

A.H.E. It was affection to her blessed Lord that prompted the woman.

J.S.A. She loved much.

Ques. Would you say it is removing the faults without saying anything about them?

F.E.R. I know as well as possible that if you get revived in soul you get free from the contaminations of the world. People get more or less in mind under the influence of the world, but if revived they throw off the defilement.

W.M. Even in natural things if a man is tired and gets his feet washed he walks better.

J.K. How about Psalm 23, "He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness"?

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F.E.R. That is very near akin to it. In John 14 we get the Comforter coming, that is a very important point, for the Lord knew that the disciples were not fit to be left here alone without support. Therefore the Comforter was to abide with them for ever, the Spirit of truth.

W.M. I suppose the word 'Comforter' is more in the sense of advocate who would take up the care of the saints.

F.E.R. Christ had been a Comforter to them for He speaks of "another" Comforter. All the time He was here He maintained them, but now He would ask for another Comforter, who was the Spirit of truth; so that we have a security for the maintenance of the truth. It would be a sorry thing if the truth were dependent upon saints.

W.M. The truth was maintained when Christ was here. Now the Spirit is the truth.

F.E.R. I do not think the Scripture would be security for the maintenance of the truth. People would contravene the letter and twist it as they like. The real security is the Spirit. The Scriptures in themselves would not have served the purpose, because the Scriptures never can be more than the letter, and therefore they would not maintain the truth. The Spirit becomes the teacher.

W.M. And when it speaks of the saints knowing all things, it is by the unction. "Ye have an unction from the Holy One".

F.E.R. The truth is maintained by those who are spiritual. He that is spiritual discerns all things, "we have the mind of Christ". There is security for the maintenance of the truth by the Spirit in the spiritual.

W.M. And the spiritual is discerned by no man, yet he discerns all things. So it is really outside man.

F.E.R. The cleverest theologian is no security for the truth.

W.M. One sees the deep necessity for the Spirit.

F.E.R. In theology everything is cast into a mould, but then different systems of theology have different moulds according to the mind of man.

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J.S.A. Is not that the great lack in christendom now? People try to master Scripture by their own intelligence.

F.E.R. And they make havoc of Scripture.

W.M. We can never understand the Spirit by the letter, but the letter by the Spirit.

F.E.R. Exactly. We left system because there was no place for the Spirit. In the different systems man rules.

R.S.S. That is why I left system.

F.E.R. I think I can say it and a great many more can too, and we have a great deal more sense of the stability of the truth than we ever had in system.

W.M. Just as we have a much greater sense of safety than when we were in a fold.

F.E.R. The Spirit in a way puts us on our legs and we are not buffeted about by what this man thinks and the other man thinks. You have a sense of what is right and wrong in divine things.

G.R. You often find a very unlettered man with much more discernment of the truth than a lettered man.

F.E.R. He knows more than the ancients.

W.M. In Stephen's case, they could not gainsay the wisdom by which he spoke.

F.E.R. He was full of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit fulfils a great office in regard of us. We get every part of the truth in its own proper place. We never see a thing in its true measure until we get it in its proper place. Until then a truth is exaggerated beyond its proper importance. It is a great thing to see things in their proportion.

A.H.E. It is said that they knew the Spirit.

F.E.R. Yes, if they knew Christ they knew the Spirit.

W.M. Do you think when Christ was here that everything came out in Him in principle?

F.E.R. The Spirit brought no further revelation; all was complete in Christ.

W.M. The coming of the Spirit was to lead the disciples into it.

G.R. What is the force of that verse in chapter 16, "I

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have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now"?

F.E.R. I would call that revelation.

R.S.S. When you speak of the revelation, it is the revelation of God.

F.E.R. I think so.

R.S.S. Would you say a little as to the three aspects in which the Spirit is referred to in chapters 14, 15 and 16.

F.E.R. Chapters 13 and 14 are preparatory. Chapter 13 shows the obligation under which the Lord puts us to one another, and chapter 14 the great stay in His absence; but chapters 15 and 16 show the conditions under which the disciples were to be here in testimony to Christ, and hence chapter 15 begins something entirely new, "I am the true vine". It is the point of departure. Christ was the true vine, just as in chapter 10 He is the good Shepherd. Moses was not the good shepherd, though figurative of Christ. Christ is the Shepherd of the sheep. In this chapter we see that Israel was not the true vine, but Christ. The chapter opens up with this; that the beginning of everything is Christ. Israel had been in a sort of place provisionally as the vine, but they had lost their place. The true vine comes in and the disciples were the branches. The point for them was to prove that they were connected with Christ, just as ourselves. In christianity everything true is vital, and vitality comes out in fruit-bearing.

R.S.S. So the Spirit is spoken of in chapter 16 as the Witness, and that they also should bear witness.

F.E.R. The Spirit would be in them and they, too, would bear witness. Then in the next chapter there is intelligence in the whole system of things of which Christ is the centre. We are not now looking at the world. It has passed out of our sight like a dissolving view, because the Spirit has brought in the things of Christ, "All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you". We can apprehend the breadth and length and

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depth and height, but then all that would be nothing if we had not fruit-bearing. That is the evidence of healthy vitality.

W.M. And the fruit is borne on the branches.

F.E.R. The true vine did not come in on account of the failure of Israel. God saw fit to put forth a sort of provisional vine; but Christ is the true vine. Israel never was the true vine. Now Christ says, "I am the true vine". I am the real point of departure. It is so important to apprehend that Christ is the beginning, not Adam nor Israel.

W.M. So Adam's place was that of a figure of Him that was to come.

F.E.R. Christ has come in as the Head, and the Shepherd, and the true vine. Israel will come into the place of the vine hereafter, but we are vitally connected with Christ by the Spirit, and healthy vitality will work out in fruit-bearing.

J.K. In that way you would have no fruit-bearing until Christ came in.

F.E.R. Not properly. Hence in Hosea you get, "From me is thy fruit found".

W.M. So God was never really looking for anything from man in the flesh.

F.E.R. He had looked in Israel for grapes, but they brought forth wild grapes. Now the true vine has come in, and Israel for the time being is set aside as in chapter 10 they are set aside as the flock. The flock now takes character from the Shepherd, and the true vine has come in and the branches abode in Christ and bore fruit.

W.M. Do you look upon abiding in the sense of attachment?

F.E.R. That is the sense of it.

J.S.A. There could not be fruit-bearing apart from Christ.

F.C. Is that verse in Romans 7, "married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God", in that connection?

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F.E.R. Exactly. The wife abides in her husband and brings forth fruit.

W.M. So that abiding in Christ is not a christian going on in communion one moment and not at another.

F.E.R. It is continuous; it is that you travel in your proper orbit.

J.K. The exhortation to the saints, "keep yourselves in the love of God", is that the thought?

F.C. And holding the Head?

F.E.R. That is the same in principle.

G.R. Not to abide would be really to apostatise.

F.E.R. Exactly, that is the force of it, as if the moon could get out of its attachment to the earth, it would get out of the shining of the sun. We want to abide in Christ in order that we may be in the sunshine, because all fertility is dependent on the shining of the sun. The earth wants two things, sunshine and rain. It abides in the sun, and on account of that it gets the rain, and the earth becomes fertile and brings forth fruit. It is the same in the christian; he abides in the light of the sun and the consequence is he gets rain and so becomes fruitful.

W.M. So the peaceable fruits of righteousness are by Jesus Christ unto the glory and praise of God.

J.S.A. Is walking in the truth the same thing?

F.E.R. Exactly, walking in the truth is walking in Christ. The Lord speaks of two particular things in the chapter, love and joy. They are fruits. They are spoken of in Galatians as the fruit of the Spirit. I am sure people want to be in sunshine. I am speaking so of myself. It is true in natural things, but there you may get too much sunshine because the sun has no intelligence; but when you come to wisdom, the true Sun, there is intelligence, and He can adapt Himself in that way to the people that have come to Him, so that you never need be afraid of being scorched by Christ.

J.K. Abiding in the sunshine would produce fruit.

F.E.R. But you must get the rain to soften the earth. Everything is adjusted by Christ. You do not get too

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much sunshine and not enough rain. People run after rain and do not get enough sunshine.

A.H.E. How do you define rain?

F.E.R. It is ministry.

W.M. And then if people get very happy under these influences they can express it by singing hymns, spiritual songs etc.,

R.S.S. Keep yourselves in the love of God; that is abiding in the sunshine.

F.E.R. Where is the love of God presented to you?

R.S.S. In Christ.

F.E.R. It would be a very wonderful thing if we had christians fruit-bearing, walking here in love to one another, and full of joy, and intelligent in the things of Christ, apprehending the breadth and length and depth and height, knowing the whole extent of the moral universe.

J.K. Would you confine fruit-bearing to service?

F.E.R. That is not the idea of fruit-bearing. It is the produce of healthy vitality. I have seen a tree all leaves; there is vitality, but not healthy vitality. In healthy vitality there are leaves and fruit.

W.M. Chapters 15 and 16 would be overpowering testimony to Christ.

F.E.R. I ask anybody if it would not be so. We should be filled unto all the fulness of God.

R.S.S. I suppose there is a tendency with us all to get somewhat depressed.

F.E.R. That is the influence of the world in having to do with present things, and therefore the necessity of feet-washing comes in, to help one another. I wish one had more courage to approach people. I have had it said to me, 'I have often wished that some one would speak to me about divine things'. There is a certain sense of need in people to which we might minister.

R.S.S. You mean people we come in contact with every day?

F.E.R. Fellow-christians, I mean.

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R.S.S. In connection with ourselves what is the antidote for depression?

F.E.R. To get into the sunshine, and that will raise the question as to how we will get into the sunshine.

W.M. That is by awakening.

F.E.R. "Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light". The sun is there and there are no clouds over our Sun. But fogs arise sometimes. A fog is as bad as a cloud, and we get fogs and exhalations though no clouds.

W.M. If we awake we soon get out of these fogs!

F.E.R. Jude puts it very beautifully, "building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God". These are very good exhortations. Prayer is a great thing. I do not think people get enough alone with God in prayer and meditation.

W.M. It requires courage to do that.

F.E.R. That is the way people thrive.

A.H.E. The trouble in this country is we have not enough meetings.

F.E.R. I think perhaps you want a little more rain sometimes.

R.S.S. One notices in Scripture that joy is connected somewhat with the ascension of Christ. Would that come in in a way in connection with what was before us?

F.E.R. It is the fruit of the Spirit; we have the admonition, "Rejoice in the Lord". It is a great thing to get a sense by the Spirit of all things being in the hand of Christ. Then you will rejoice in the Lord. It looks some times as if the world had all its own way; look at the terrific pace at which the world is going. It looks as if the world would dominate the universe by modern invention and armaments, and defy the power of God, but really after all if you look at things morally, the world is a scene of confusion. Politics are expediency. A politician takes advantage of things as they arise. Is there nothing better than that? The comfort is that the Lord is above it

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all, "Rejoice in the Lord". All authority is given to Him; you want to get to Him.

W.M. And He can reduce everything to order in a moment.

G.W.H. And He is going to do it.

F.E.R. I have no doubt the time will come when forces will be let loose which will smash up the world. We get that in the Revelation.

R.S.S. You mean anarchy.

F.E.R. Yes, and socialism; it will break up the whole framework of society.

A.H.E. An English doctor said to me that a patient of his died through fear because of the reverses of the British armies in South Africa. He thought the British nation was going to pieces.

F.E.R. I would be very sorry to have my hopes bound up with the British nation.

W.M. Men's hearts will fail them for fear.

F.E.R. The sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood. What a terrible day for the world.

G.W.H. It is a great thing for a christian in the midst of it all to have the eye fixed upon Christ.

F.E.R. "Taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked". "Be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might".

J.S.A. It is a healthful thing to have the intelligence of chapter 16.

F.E.R. That is the point; one world is judged to bring another world into view, "All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you".

Ques. I want to ask a question, "I will pray the Father", what is the sense of that?

F.E.R. The real word is, "I will beg (demand) the Father". It is a word peculiar to John. Elsewhere it is, "having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit". He received the Spirit. It is the fulfilment of Psalm 68, "Thou hast ascended on high, ... received gifts in Man".

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He was first anointed personally, and then having accomplished redemption He goes to the right hand of God in order that He might shed the Spirit abroad in others. It is put in a different way here, but really it is the receiving of the Spirit in Man in order that He might send forth the Spirit to others. So Peter takes it up, "having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear". It is a wonderful thing that Christ should accomplish redemption in order to shed forth the Spirit. If we have the Spirit there is fruit-bearing, and we know the things of Christ. All real christianity lies within the region of the Spirit. Outside of the region of the Spirit you get out of christianity in its true power. All that we see around us, churches, and all that sort of thing are outside of the region of the Spirit.

R.S.S. It is an immensely important thing to grow in spiritual intelligence. I expect that is our great lack. I mean with good intentions we do the wrong thing.

F.E.R. Yes, the apostle prays for the Ephesians, "To be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man, that Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith". Then it is, "that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God". That prayer stands good for us.

W.M. And I suppose chapters 14 to 16 are the opening out of that prayer. There is faith in chapter 14, love in chapter 15 and intelligence in chapter 16.

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THE LAW OF CHRIST

Galatians 2:15 - 21; 5: 6

It will be allowed that what was really operative and true in the apostle Paul should be true and operative in us. The principle on which the apostle walked is the principle on which we have to walk, and there is no other true principle. God had not one rule for the apostle and another for us. The apostle speaks of himself, but he speaks of himself as an example, and that comes out in the end of the second chapter. The fact is that he presents for us the truth in himself. The "I" is not exactly personal, but more the personification of the truth in himself. He says, "I, through law, have died to law, that I may live to God". The same would be true of any christian who had been under law. The fact is that the law had demonstrated to the apostle how contrary he was to God. The law was the ministration of death and made plain to man that the sentiments and springs in man are contrary to God. The law prohibited this and that, but the principle of it made plain and was intended to make plain to man his contrariety. It was said, "Thou shalt not covet". God does not covet. If man covets, he is contrary to God, and where is the than that does not covet? There were things in man that were not in accord with God, and if contrary to what is in God they could not be right in man. God created man in His own image and likeness, and therefore if there is found in man that which is contrary to God, it proves that man has departed from God, and the law made that manifest. All of us know this, for there is no one in the world of whom it can be said, he does not covet. Well, the law brought that home to the apostle and led him to say here, "I, through law, have died to law", that is, in other words, the law killed him, because it demonstrated to him that there was that in him which was contrary to God. That is, it killed him in his conscience, but

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that was met and he accepted it. He says, "I, through law, have died to law, that I may live to God. I am crucified with Christ", His mind was brought into accord with the crucifixion of Christ, so it is with regard to us. We are able to say, "I am crucified with Christ". Christ was crucified in fact, we are crucified with Him by being in accord with that which has taken place in Him. That ought to be the case with every christian, for the cross of Christ came in, not simply that we might live, but that in the first instance we might accept death. Death and the curse lay upon us, and the death of Christ came in so that we might accept it, and by so doing might find life, the other side of death, in Christ. That is a point of all moment, and hence we are in accord in mind with that which took place in Christ in fact. But on the other hand the apostle says, "no longer live, I, but Christ lives in me". That is, that the object of the death of Christ was that we might accept death in regard of the course of things in which we previously lived, but then it is that "Christ lives in me". Then the apostle adds a word, "in that I now live in flesh", that is in that I live here in responsibility, I live by faith, that is, not by law, "the faith of the Son of God, who has loved me and given himself for me". Now I will tell you the practical import of faith. What you believe governs you. That is always a test of faith. The devils believe and tremble, but they are not governed by what they believe. They only tremble. When the Lord was here upon earth demons knew Him as Son of God, but were not governed by this knowledge. Faith apprehends unseen things, and what marks the christian is that he is governed by unseen things. I think people sometimes make a mistake about faith. A great many people here have never seen England and yet all believe there is such a place as England, but there is no faith in that, because if you had the opportunity you could go to England and verify it. That is not faith. Faith is the acceptance of things on sufficient testimony, that you cannot verify, and yet you are governed and controlled by

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the things that you cannot verify. You accept them on testimony. God gives testimony, and God has taken care that there shall be ample evidence to the testimony; but we have to accept things on the testimony of God, and if you could verify them there would not be faith. The truth is that we believe in things which are not seen. We know them only on the report from God, and yet they are of such import to us down here that they govern us in all the detail of life. That is virtually what the apostle says here, "in that I now live in flesh, I live by faith, the faith of the Son of God, who has loved me and given himself for me". One effect of that in the apostle was that he overcame the world. We read elsewhere, in the writings of the apostle John, "Who is he that overcometh the world, but be that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?" Christ overcame the world, and so did the apostle. The world sought to overcome Christ, and so, too, the apostle. The apostle in overcoming the world had to encounter all the force of man and to overcome it. The apostle did not trim his sails to suit either Jew or gentile. He was apart from the Jew, and from the gentile as from the Jew, because by faith he overcame the world, and did not accommodate himself to what was here.

Law no longer governed the apostle, nor idolatry, philosophy, nor anything here. The spring and principle of the apostle's activity and life was the Son of God who loved him and gave Himself for him. If that was true for the apostle it should be true in regard of you and me. You cannot go right except by Christ. There is not a single thing we can do right except under the influence of Christ. Everything you do under His influence is right. There is nothing else that is right or suitable to God. The apostle's life was under the influence of Christ, whether it was joyful or sorrowful. It was a sweet savour to God. The same principle applies to us. What we do under the influence of Christ is acceptable to God and nothing else, and in so doing we overcome the world. Many of us have suffered as much from the approaches of the world as

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from the opposition of the world. If they cannot subdue you one way, they try another, but it is all no good, the point is to overcome the world, and the principle on which you overcome is the faith of the Son of God. I should suppose we are entitled to individualise the Son of God as the apostle did here. He had been as perverse as any one. He was the leader and apostle of opposition to Christ, and yet Christ had loved him and given Himself for him. I think one may appropriate the Son of God to himself in that way. If Paul said it, I would be glad to say it, and I would be glad that anybody else should appropriate the Son of God in the same way, and that is the principle and spring of conduct down here upon earth.

As an illustration of it, I will ask your attention to John 9:34 - 39. You see the Lord had virtually left the world. In the previous chapter He had passed out of the midst of the Jews. He had not yet died, but He had left the world in spirit. Well, He had given sight to the blind man, and the blind man had found out the hollowness of the world. I cannot say he had quite judged it all, but he had found its hollowness and had been cast out. He had simply attributed the fact of his having sight to the work of Jesus. Then the Lord finds him and brings him to the point of confession that he believes in the Son of God. Then it was, I take it, that he overcame the world. I have no doubt when he was first cast out that he was miserable enough, for he was alone, but it was another thing when Jesus found him, then he believes on the Son of God and does Him homage. He could not perhaps go so far as to say, "the Son of God who loved me and gave himself for me", but he could have said the Son of God who has opened my eyes. It is an illustration, in that sense, of one who had overcome the world. You have to take into account that the Son of God has now no part in the course of things down here. The Son of God is at the right hand of God, and we walk by the faith of Him, and what we believe governs us in our course and conduct down here. In human things a wife does right when she

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walks and lives in the sense of her husband's love. So with a child in a family, it does right while it is under the influence of its parents' affection. That is the secret of right conduct on earth. I believe it would be the same even between employer and employed -- if the employed had respect and affection for the employer, they would act rightly. And I am sure it is so in regard of christians. The principle and spring of everything right is in the heart being under the influence of the Son of God.

Now I want to go on to another point, that for which I read a passage in this same epistle, that is, "faith which worketh by love", (chapter 5: 6). When saints get away from the influence of the love of Christ, they soon get to biting and devouring one another. They do not give up outward proprieties; the tendency of the Galatians was to go back to circumcision and law. No doubt regard to circumcision and law would bring about a good deal of outward propriety, but, as regards one another, love was not there. Depend upon it, where people are legal the tendency is to bite and devour one another. That is where the Galatians had got to. People begin to stand on their rights, and that is always a dangerous thing. It is only one step from biting and devouring one another. In contrast to that the apostle says, "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision has any force, nor uncircumcision; but faith working through love". That is the point I desire to touch on.

We do not know much about circumcision or uncircumcision, but in their place we get orthodoxy and heterodoxy and there is no power in one or the other. Circumcision was better than uncircumcision because it was ordered of God. So good doctrine may be better than heterodoxy, but neither in orthodoxy nor heterodoxy is there power. The correct man, like the Pharisee, has a good deal of credit attaching to him, but there is no more power in it than in heterodoxy. The divine principle is faith that worketh by love; that is a most important principle. We cannot talk much about faith if there is not love. When

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the heart is under the influence of the Son of God, then it is that faith is operative by love, and I think I may say that it is a true principle that if you fail to find love in the saints you may depend upon it faith is not very bright.

Just to give you an illustration of that, I will call your attention to Luke 10:38 - 42 and John 12:1 - 7. 1 refer to Luke 10 because that is the first allusion we have to Mary of Bethany and the attitude of Mary was that of sitting at Jesus' feet and hearing His word. That is, in other words, she was under the influence of the Son of God. The Lord commended her. Martha found fault with her, because she was herself occupied with serving. She was legal and where people are legal they are fussy and active. That is generally an evidence of legality. It was not but what she believed in Christ just as really as Mary, but she had not come under the influence of the Son of God and Mary had. That is seen in her sitting at the feet of Jesus. It is blessed to sit at Jesus' feet because you come under His influence. When a little child sits at the feet of its mother, and hears her word, he not only hears what the mother has to say, but comes under the mother's influence. In John 12 faith is seen operative in Mary by love, that is, that Mary would devote the most precious thing that she had, to distinguish the Lord; she thus made evident her faith. It was operative by love. She would anoint the Lord for His burial. What she had before her mind in connection with Christ was His burial. There may have been faith as to His resurrection, but the Lord's interpretation was that she anointed Him for His burial. It was an act of devoted affection on her part. The disciples blamed her for it; they thought it waste. They were poor judges. I have seen this in life -- if faith is operative in you, people of the world will blame you. They will think you are losing opportunities. You must be prepared for that. When faith works by love it will break through the laws of human prudence, but human prudence is not very far off from covetousness. Christ was life to Mary and she sought to distinguish her life. Every

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one tries to distinguish his life. She was dead in a certain sense, but she distinguished her life. The fact of your living down here is not morally your life. Let me give you a word of admonition. Take pains to distinguish Christ. To want to be yourself conspicuous is a mistake. Try and make Christ distinguished. But I can understand any one saying, we have not Christ here; we are not like Mary; she had the Lord before her in the house in Bethany, and a great opportunity of doing honour to Him. It is true that we are not brought into the same personal contact with Christ that Mary was. But I think I can meet that difficulty.

If you will turn to John 21:15 - 19, we can carry the thought on there in regard of Peter; he had faith, but there was a passage in his life when his faith was certainly not operative by love. Another thing came in; Peter, being a rather rash man, entered into temptation. The Lord had taught the disciples to pray that they should not enter into temptation, but Peter ran into temptation. He did what a great many of us have done sometimes. He got into a position for which he had no faith, which is always a mistake, for you are bound to fail. People may extend to you the courtesies of the world, and you may go into worldly company, having no faith for it; and it will not be for your credit or honour. You do not want to get into a position for which you have no faith. Peter did and the fear of man came in and led to the denial of the Lord. He denied the Lord three times, and that is why possibly the Lord challenged him three times. But faith in Christ was there. We have good evidence of it, because the Lord said, "I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not". There was the terrible breakdown, but instead of Peter going out and giving up in despair, he wept bitterly and Peter was in result restored. But now the Lord was about to leave the earth and the faith of Peter was to become operative by love. How could it go out? Now the Lord gives direction to it. He challenges Peter three times and the point of all was this, that his

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affection for Christ was to go out to the sheep and lambs of Christ, faith was to become operative by love. The love was to find its objects in those who belong to the Lord down here upon earth. It is a wonderful thing to think that the Lord has objects here. We have an object in heaven; and it is inconceivably blessed to think that the Lord Jesus has objects down here upon earth. They are not in heaven yet; they are here upon earth. His sheep and lambs are here. There are many spirits of saints with the Lord, but they are but spirits of saints; those for whom Christ has affection at the present time are upon earth; and, if faith is operative by love, the direction love will take will be toward those who are precious to Christ here. The Lord gave that direction to Peter and he answered to the Lord, and his affection went out to the lambs and sheep as you see in his epistles. He occupied the place of a shepherd to the Jewish sheep and lambs of the Lord. So that faith became operative by love, even when the Lord was absent from the earth. Mary had an opportunity when the Lord was here; Peter had an opportunity when the Lord had gone. Now that has a voice for you and me. It is a blessed thing to know that we are to be for ever with the Lord, but that is not yet. The voice of the archangel will sound and we shall be caught up to be for ever with the Lord, and we shall have continued affection for the Lord then, but that is not just yet. We are left here for the moment to walk under the influence of the Son of God who loved us and gave Himself for us. And, if faith is operative by love, the direction of that love will be in regard of those upon earth who are precious to Christ.

Another difficulty might be raised. 'There are so few of them one can get at. There are so many much better christians in this thing and that thing, that I never come across'. The thing is to make the best you can of what comes to hand. There is no good in hankering after those you cannot come in contact with. If you cannot get at them, make the best you can of those that are at hand.

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What comes to hand may not be of the very highest quality, but it comes to hand, and, poor as it may be, it is within the bounds of possibility that it may be precious to Christ, and we cannot do much harm in going out to what is precious to Christ. Hence we have opportunity. Faith is operative by love and we want to cultivate it, so that instead of being governed by motives and maxims of human prudence, our love should go out to those we come in contact with; that is the word I give you. That was the principle with the apostle. He had hated christians in times past, but now faith had come in. He was prepared to spend and be spent for the sake of those who were Christ's.

One word occurs to me in regard of him, he says, "I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory". It is a blessed thing to love one another. We prove our love to Christ by loving one another. If a man told me he loved Christ I would say let me see it. Let me see what you are to the saints in service to them, and what you are to them proves the reality of your affection to Christ Himself. It is a great thing if we walk in love one to another. It was the commandment of the Lord Jesus. "These things I command you, that ye love one another". Do not be surprised if the world hate you, but, as to you, love one another. What I have tried to bring before you is, that faith is operative by love and there is opportunity of letting your love go out to those who are the objects of affection to Christ down here.

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READINGS ON 1 CORINTHIANS (1)

1 Corinthians 1:1 - 31

R.S.S. What special thought have you before you in this epistle?

F.E.R. In every epistle Christ is presented in some particular way. No two epistles present Christ exactly in the same light. It is a point of the greatest interest to see the light in which Christ is presented in any epistle, and, in connection with that, the purpose of God in so presenting Christ. That was the thought in my mind.

R.S.S. Perhaps you might mention to us the way in which Christ is presented in the various epistles.

F.E.R. I can only do it cursorily. For instance, in the epistle to the Romans, Christ is the mercy-seat, the point with God being to declare His righteousness.

In 1 Corinthians: Christ is presented as the wisdom of God and the power of God, the purpose of God being by Christ to overthrow all that existed and to establish what was of Himself.

In 2 Corinthians: Christ is presented as the Yea and Amen; that is, the confirmation of the promises of God.

In Galatians: He is the vessel of Abraham's blessing to the gentiles.

In Ephesians: He is ascended up far above all heavens that He might fill all things.

In Philippians: He is the life and aim of the christian.

In Colossians: He is the Head, in whom the reconciliation of all things comes to pass.

In 1 Thessalonians: He is the Deliverer from the coming wrath.

In 2 Thessalonians: He is the Destroyer of antichrist.

In 1 Peter: He is the Living Stone, it is a question of a building.

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In 2 Peter: He is the Day-Star in the heart of the christian and the kingdom is in view.

In Hebrews: He is the Apostle and High Priest of our profession.

In James: He is the Lord of glory.

In 1 John: He is the true God and eternal life.

Every epistle takes its character from the particular light in which Christ is presented. When you apply that to 1 Corinthians in which He is the wisdom of God and the power of God, it is seen that the purpose of God is to establish here what is of Himself, and on the other hand, to overthrow all that which existed, and had influence over man's soul.

J.P. And so in chapter 15 the last enemy to be destroyed is death.

F.E.R. Because it is the enemy that holds man in bondage, and its power is destroyed by the resurrection of Christ. 1 Corinthians is an elementary epistle, that is why I thought it might be helpful. It is a very great thing to see what God has proposed to do by Christ.

J.S.A. Would you say that these presentations are made in any special connection with the state of those to whom they were written?

F.E.R. That became the immediate occasion of the epistle, but the Spirit of God rises above that and presents Christ in some particular light in regard of the world to come. There is no epistle which, in thought, does not carry you on to the world to come. It is the end in view in every epistle.

R.S.S. I suppose you would say the same thing was true in the gospels.

F.E.R. Quite so. Evidently Christ is presented in a special light in each.

R.S.S. But not in the epistles that were written to individuals.

F.E.R. They are not doctrinal.

J.P. What do you mean by the world to come?

F.E.R. The world which is going to be set forth in the

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light of God, and in which God will be glorified; the time of restitution of all things. It says in Hebrews 12, "ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel". All are constituent parts of the world to come, and we are brought to them by the Spirit of God.

J.S.A. It is not the new heaven and earth, but a new system of things.

R.S.S. Would you repeat for us what is the meaning of Christ as the wisdom of God and the power of God?

F.E.R. I think He is the wisdom of God as being the resource of God, the means by which God would put Himself in contact with man; and He is the power of God to overthrow every influence and every enemy that holds men in bondage.

R.S.S. Is that the meaning of the word wisdom -- resource?

F.E.R. A man of wisdom is a man of resource, so Christ is the resource of God.

R.S.S. The power of God in the Scriptures is largely connected with resurrection, but is this a larger thought?

F.E.R. The resurrection of Christ is insisted on in chapter 15, because the question there is really of victory over death. The last enemy, death, shall be destroyed, and in the close of the chapter the apostle speaks about the victory, "O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?" The resurrection of Christ brought in the victory.

R.S.S. Then that connects it with resurrection?

F.E.R. Yes, and there must be power to rise inherent.

J.S.A. "It was not possible that be should be holden of it".

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F.E.R. In that sense Christ is the power of God. "He must rise" is the way Scripture puts it. He must rise as truly as He "must suffer"; resurrection was inherent in Christ.

R.S.S. So Jesus speaks in John 2, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up".

F.E.R. "No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again".

R.S.S. I was thinking of that scripture in Ephesians where it speaks of God having put forth His great power in the resurrection of Christ.

F.E.R. But then, Christ is God. Resurrection is inherent in Him because He is the Son of God. There was no power to hold Christ in death though He did enter into it, "he must rise".

R.S.S. I suppose Christ is the power of God in the end of Philippians 3, "Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself".

F.E.R. Yes, but the point here is the overthrow of all that held power over man. That is what God has done. Christianity is an existing fact, and although it has been most fearfully corrupted, yet God first used it to overthrow all that existed.

W.M. Do you mean heathenism, judaism and philosophy?

F.E.R. Yes, whatever held man in bondage, superstition and the like. It was God's purpose to bring to nought the things that are. God has chosen things of no account to bring to nought the things that are, that no flesh should glory in His presence.

W.M. And all fell before the most insignificant instruments.

F.E.R. Things despised, even things that are not. I do not think people see what a mighty power Christ has been in the world, for many things once overthrown are rearing

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their heads again in the decay of christianity. You get a kind of idolatry coming in, and superstition and many evil things.

W.M. I suppose Christ is pretty much preached now for the benefit of the world and that people miss the point. The apostle says, "we preach Christ crucified".

F.E.R. Of course preaching now is in christendom pretty much.

O.O'B. Should not the gospel be preached outside of christendom?

F.E.R. All that is a question of individual grace given.

R.S.S. What had you in your mind when you said, we preach the gospel in christendom?

F.E.R. I mean it is a different thing now from what it was at the beginning, you take a great deal for granted in the preaching. We do not put the first elements before people. We suppose that people to whom we preach know something of the elements of truth. For instance, you do not attempt to argue with people as to the existence of God. We would have to do that among the heathen. They have no idea of a living God.

W.M. If you went to heathendom you might talk a good deal about the goodness of God in sending rain from heaven and fruitful seasons, as Paul did.

F.E.R. In christendom it is taken for granted that the Bible is accepted as being the word of God, but the Bible would have no sort of authority among heathen. Preaching of necessity among the heathen must be of a different character from that in christendom.

Ques. Could the gospel today be preached outside of christendom?

F.E.R. I suppose so.

Ques. In which way should I go and preach the gospel outside of christendom?

F.E.R. To the limits of christendom.

Ques. Where should I go?

F.E.R. I suppose this country is professedly christian,

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but in Africa and Asia you might go to the limits of christendom.

W.M. I suppose in preaching in christendom it is difficult to tell who has been the means of the conversion of anybody.

F.E.R. Quite so. From the fact of christianity having been established in the world, as we find it, we have very little idea of the mighty power which was connected with the preaching of Christ in the first instance, and how effectually the preaching overthrew all that existed. It did that, and there is no disputing it.

J.S.A. I was thinking of the statement in Acts 4, "Now when they saw ... that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled". There is the power of it.

F.E.R. But then the mighty power of God was with the truth, and for one simple reason that in Christ there was the light of God.

G.R. They said, "These that have turned the world upside down are come hither".

F.E.R. You will find that in Ephesus the preaching of Christ came into contact with idolatry and the power of idolatry fell, for all the influences of those days depended upon the ignorance of man in regard of God. Once the light of God was brought in these influences of necessity came to nought.

J.S.A. Christianity has lost its force by having become a system of doctrine instead of the setting forth of Christ as the revelation.

G.W.H. In Acts 17 you find Paul preaching to the Athenians who were in that condition you spoke of just now.

F.E.R. The point there was philosophy, but philosophy fell. Where is Grecian philosophy now? Very few know anything about it. Where is idolatry now? In the decay of christianity mohammedanism came in. But on the face of things that is a mixture and corrupt. It came in and swept over Asia Minor after christianity had decayed.

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G.R. It is striking in Acts 17; the apostle does not quote scripture as in Acts 13, which is almost a string of quotations.

F.E.R. Because in Acts 13 he was preaching to Jews.

G.W.H. In Acts 17 he reasoned with them, did he not?

F.E.R. The apostle was always reasoning. I think reasoning is much more the right thought than declamation in preaching. Our preaching is often too declamatory.

G.R. Establishing facts.

F.E.R. And reasoning as to what is right, for christianity presents what is right, and we ought to be able to reason on what is right. An orator would affect people by mere oratory, and there you might have a good deal of declamation, but you do not want to affect people by that kind of thing when you have what is right. We find the apostle reasoning and alleging, so he reasoned with Felix. When you are declamatory it is a proof that you want to affect people and are not quite certain of the power of what you are preaching.

J.S.A. And in the other case the conscience is to accept what is right.

W.M. It is not the preacher's responsibility to affect people.

F.E.R. I think not. He is to reason with them, "Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men". The great point in christianity is that it presents righteousness. "Thy lips speak right things", and there is nothing else that is right.

W.M. Commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.

E.A. Is that the force of the passage in Isaiah, "Come now, and let us reason together"?

F.E.R. God reasons.

G.W.H. If you are convinced that a thing is right, have you not a right to state it as a fact?

F.E.R. But then you have to meet all sorts of peculiarities and contrarieties in the minds of men; and you

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have to take account of them, and to answer them as far as you can. "Unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews". We have to take into account the influences under which people have been educated and trained, and meet their difficulties, and reasoning comes in there.

A.Q.R. What did the apostle mean in verse 17, "not with wisdom of words"? Does not that mean reasoning?

F.E.R. No, I think he meant there was no adoption of philosophic forms, such as existed. Christianity (and it is important to remember it) is not dogmatic. Judaism was dogmatic, because the light had not come in. The moment the light comes in, there is an end of dogmatism.

R.S.S. In connection with what you were saying, judaism made an emphatic demand. That is what you would say is dogmatic. Whereas in christianity God presents Himself in a way that affects men morally.

F.E.R. You get the standard of all that is right. For instance, as to righteousness. People make a great deal of righteousness doctrinally, but it is what is right. That is the simplest definition I know. Well, how are you to determine what is right? Of necessity it must be determined by what God is, if you do not know what God is you have no determination of what is right. When God is revealed you have the determination of what is right, and can talk and reason on it. A great many things were tolerated in Old Testament times that were not strictly right. For instance, people told lies for an end, for they had not an absolute standard of what is right. Once God is revealed, everything is changed.

W.M. Would that scripture, "the times of this ignorance God winked at" refer to it?

F.E.R. That refers more to idolatry.

J.P. Dogmatism came in with the decay of christianity.

F.E.R. Rome is all dogmatism. They try to keep the

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Scriptures from the laity, and the poor laity are cast upon the dogmas of the church. That is not christianity; it is the corruption of it. What we have to meet now is the revival of things which were overthrown by Christ.

G.W.H. And how are they to be met?

F.E.R. As at the beginning. You will not meet them by dogma. It is by one's practical sense of what is right.

J.S.A. And Christ is really the test of that.

J.B. Are not men losing the knowledge of God?

F.E.R. They had lost it; it has been a little revived now, but three hundred years ago what knowledge of God was there?

J.P. So that it is the great thing in that way to apprehend Christ.

F.E.R. Yes. I have only been speaking so far of how effectually everything was set aside by the introduction of Christ. He was the power of God to that end, but He was the wisdom of God. So in chapter 3 of this epistle you get what God established in Christ. It is never the thought of God simply to overthrow. He will do that. In the Old Testament we read, "I will overturn, overturn", but that is not properly God's work. The point with God is to establish, and He establishes what is of Himself, and Christ is the One in whom He does it.

J.P. If He overthrows that which is not according to Himself it is that He may establish that which is according to Himself.

F.E.R. He establishes that which is of Himself, and by it He overthrows that which is not of Himself.

J.P. You see in the third chapter what God has established.

F.E.R. Yes, the first great principle is the temple, that is what in Christ is established, and if you have the temple of God you have the oracles of God. This was foreshadowed in Israel. They had a material temple and, in a sense, the oracles of God, but now in Christ you have the true temple of God and of necessity the oracles.

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J.P. The oracles accompany the temple.

F.E.R. Yes, the apostle says in chapter 3, "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?"

J.P. What is the great idea of the temple of God?

F.E.R. It is the shrine of God, where the oracles are. That is, they are really here on earth, and it was because of that that all the various powers of which I was speaking fell.

W.M. And therefore the light of God was here.

F.E.R. Quite so, because the Spirit of God is here; the Spirit meant the truth of God. How has the truth been maintained here? By the Spirit. Another thing is seen in the previous chapter which is extremely important, and that is, the spiritual man; apart from the spiritual man you would not get the building, but the spiritual man is not everything. The building is composed of living stones, spiritual men, but then the Spirit of God is there and the Spirit of God is accountable in that way for the maintenance of the oracles of God.

H.M. Would you say the church was the oracle of God?

F.E.R. No, the church is where the oracles are. The oracles are found in the Spirit of God. They come out in the temple, the church, but they may be greatly obscured in the temple.

J.P. We do not know things by the temple, but we know things by the Spirit.

F.E.R. Yes, but all the stones ought to be transparent, not opaque, so that the truth might shine out through the stones.

W.M. That is, spiritual men; such are not opaque.

F.E.R. Yes. Spiritual men are transparent; carnal men are partly opaque; natural men are entirely so.

A.Q.R. What is meant by the foolishness of the preaching?

F.E.R. It is more the foolishness of what is preached. You can understand how contemptible the preaching of the cross was in the eyes of the Greek philosophers.

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W.M. I suppose the preaching of a crucified man as a Saviour must have looked like a mockery to them.

Ques. What does that mean, "If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God"?

F.E.R. I suppose a man ought not to speak as it were of himself. If a man speaks he speaks what he knows to be of God.

J.B-n. Did the stones on the breast of the high priest have anything to do with it?

F.E.R. The stones on the breast of the high priest were representative of the twelve tribes; he bore them on his heart.

R.S.S. In connection with transparency, what is the meaning of that passage at the end of chapter 2, "the spiritual discerns all things, and he is discerned of no one"?

F.E.R. I do not think the spiritual man is discerned of any. He discerns all things; there is nothing hidden from him. He understands all moral questions but is not discerned of any. I do not think the cleverest natural man can take in the spiritual man. The cleverest thought-reader could not read my thoughts until they have taken shape, but then something lies behind my thoughts. There is a conception behind them and a thought-reader could not read that. You do not speak until that has taken shape in your mind.

W.M. And the spiritual conception he is incapable of seeing.

F.E.R. There is another thing which is extremely important; even if it were really possible for a thought-reader to apprehend the exact form of some thought in my mind be would not know what is meant. He could only apprehend the mere form of the thought; be would not enter into the spirit of it.

J.P. After all, Scripture is true, is it not?

F.E.R. I find it more and more so. It is wise and one sees nothing which compares with it.

G.R. What would you say is the special value to us of these first three chapters?

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F.E.R. It is a great stay to apprehend that the oracles of God are maintained here -- the temple and the Spirit of God are here.

J.S.A. All the failure of christians has not altered that.

F.E.R. No. The Scriptures would hardly have maintained the truth of God, though they are of the greatest value to christians, but the Spirit has maintained the truth of God.

J.S.A. And I suppose we may go as far as to say whatever is real in christianity is of the Spirit.

F.E.R. Exactly. I was saying last night that the point for every one now is to retire within the region of the Spirit. In christianity people have got far away outside of it. The great preachers of the present day affect people; they carry the people far away beyond the region of the Spirit into that of the human mind. We get here, "let no man glory in men". "He taketh the wise in their own craftiness". A lot of wise people pretend to be christian preachers. People need to get away from man and his influences.

W.M. I suppose everything else will break down sooner or later.

F.E.R. All these things around us are the revival of what was overthrown in the first instance by Christ. There were temples when the gospel was first preached, and priesthood and superstition and state churches; all that existed, but God intended all to be overthrown simply because it was all false and exercised a pernicious influence over man. It was overthrown, but now it is all revived in a different colour. The whole entourage gives you the idea of that. It is a revival partly of judaism and heathenism.

W.M. Do you think God ever set up anything ecclesiastical or that at all times there was the region of the Spirit to go into?

F.E.R. It is an interesting point in connection with the church at the beginning that there was nothing outside of

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the Spirit. If a man had to do the least kind of service, to distribute money, he had to be full of the Holy Spirit.

J.P. It is a great point for us at the present time to apprehend Christ as the wisdom and power of God, and to see that the temple and the Spirit of God are here.

F.E.R. Exactly, and you have the oracles.

J.P. That is all you need; you do not need anything else.

F.E.R. The great thing is to retire from what is not of the Spirit. It is not difficult to judge what is not.

E.A. Do you mean to say as to the oracles of God, that the Spirit of God uses the word?

F.E.R. I think everything resides in the Spirit, "Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Spirit teacheth".

E.A. That would not be apart from Scripture.

F.E.R. No, but the Spirit of God has His own mode of teaching. Scripture gives you the form of the truth. The Spirit is the truth and He has His own mode of teaching. The truth is the Spirit just as Christ is the truth. It is a reciprocal expression.

E.A. I suppose no one could speak by the Spirit unless be spoke according to the word.

F.E.R. If he spoke by the Spirit he would speak according to the word. He would not contravene it. It is to the law and the testimony that the appeal is made.

A.Q.R. Which is the guide, the Spirit or Scripture?

F.E.R. Scripture is the appeal. "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them". But you get light from the Spirit. All light comes from the Spirit, from the knowledge of God. You never understand the words in divine things until you have the things. The Spirit gives you the thing, and having the thing, you understand the words. For instance, take the outset with any one; a man being born again; he does not know anything about it until he is born again. So, too, as to the reception of the Spirit, a man does not know anything about it until he has

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the Spirit. So it is all along; you understand the words and the form of things because you have the things.

A.Q.R. Is it proper to say the Spirit takes Scripture and makes it good to us?

F.E.R. I think the Spirit has His own way; the Spirit is the truth. "Ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things". Divine teaching is a wonderful thing.

W.C.R. When are we ready for divine teaching?

F.E.R. As we go on, we are prepared for it.

Ques. Then would you say knowledge comes by the Spirit, not by the study of the Scriptures?

F.E.R. I would not care to put things in that hard and fast way. I think all right knowledge is by the knowledge of God, but then the Scriptures are so immensely important, because they put all into definite shape in the mind. You learn everything, if you learn it divinely, by the knowledge of God. I do not believe any one was ever deeply affected by anything except the knowledge of God which comes to you by the Spirit of God. We have the Spirit of God and cannot have anything greater.

E.A. Would you say a word on the passage you have just quoted from John, "Ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things"? What is the force of, "know all things"?

F.E.R. I think the object of the apostle was to deliver saints from dependence on man, a man intuitively knows all things by the unction.

W.M. So that no man can teach another the knowledge of God.

F.E.R. No one but the Spirit could do that, and that is the only true knowledge.

J.P. That is the only thing that affects you morally; the other does not.

F.E.R. For instance, the first great lesson the Spirit brings home to you is of the love of God. "The love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit which is given unto us".

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A.Q.R. Is it possible for the Spirit to teach one in principle before one knows that the things are in Scripture?

F.E.R. I think so, but then you must remember this, you not only want to have the thing in that way, but in an intelligent way, so that you can use it.

W.M. And we have often used texts to hammer things into people's heads which they have not really received?

F.E.R. I think if people have the things they will soon understand the texts, but it will never do to undervalue the Scriptures. All your apprehension of things has no authority; even an apostle would be subject to the Scriptures. The apostles took care to show that all that they presented was according to the Old Testament Scriptures, so the Lord Himself says, "the scripture cannot be broken".

A.Q.R. It is a great thing to keep Scripture in its right place.

W.M. The Bereans received the word readily and searched the Scriptures for confirmation.

F.E.R. And right enough they were too. I would be extremely glad in regard of what one puts out, if people would go to the Scriptures to find out if things were so.

A.Q.R. Do you think there is a tendency to ignore the teaching of the Spirit and depend on the letter?

F.E.R. That is where christendom has got to partly, because it has put man in the place of the Spirit. When things got into decay and people became unspiritual, man was put in authority and displaced the Spirit. They began by appointing elders, instead of the elders being men full of the Holy Spirit, and then the elders appointed bishops, a kind of supreme elder. Look at the popish church. Who is the head? Not Christ nor the Spirit, but the pope. So, too, the Greek church; it is not Christ or the Spirit, but the patriarch. In the English church it is the king. So all the great dissenting bodies have their synods, and such like, and the Spirit is displaced; and they make everything

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of the letter and have lost the Spirit, and what is the effect? They have little understanding in divine things.

J.S.A. As you say, they have really lost the knowledge of God to a large extent.

F.E.R. Because they have ignored the Spirit, and how can they make any advance? It is so important to retreat within the region of the Spirit; there it is you get light. The spiritual man discerns all things.

W.M. And the temple is here too.

F.E.R. Yes, the temple of God. People say 'why ever do you want to separate from this and that?' My answer is, it is no good remaining in a false place; the thing is to get out to where the Spirit is, and there you will find understanding of the oracles of God. I mean that individually you come to where the spiritual man discerns all things. Until a man has retreated he will not get much understanding. When we left system we did not understand much about the temple. We connected the Spirit very much with the individual. There was no idea of the Spirit in the company. I think when we were delivered from those things we began to get some apprehension of the temple of God and of the presence of the Spirit of God, not merely in the individual, but in the temple.

Ques. What is the distinction between the temple and the house?

F.E.R. The temple is connected more with the oracles of God; the house is where people learn how to behave. In my house I expect every one to behave. You do not expect to sit down at the table with your hat on.

J.B. Is the temple of God connected with testimony?

F.E.R. I think the temple of God is for the maintenance of the oracles.

Ques. What do you mean by the oracles?

F.E.R. What God has to say. A Corinthian would have understood the idea.

W.M. "What the Spirit saith unto the churches".

F.E.R. There you get it. I do not think there has been a moment in the history of christendom when the Spirit

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did not have something to say to the churches, some particular truth suitable to the moment. If you are within the region of the Spirit you have the opened ear to hear what the Spirit says to the churches. Surely at the present time the Spirit has something to say.

J.P. It would be impossible to conceive of the Spirit being here and being silent, would it not?

F.E.R. Yes. You will not find a single man in system who has any definite idea of the meaning of the addresses to the seven churches -- and if he has any idea he has picked it up from brethren and then uses it as though it were his own.

J.P. And turns around and abuses the people he picked it up from.

J.S.A. Just on the line you began with, that the Spirit of God has a different presentation of Christ to every church He addresses, so He may have a special truth for us at any given time.

F.E.R. I have no doubt He would bring this home to us. A thousand years ago people did not understand the addresses to the churches very much.

W.M. You were saying last night that Christ is always in activity and the Spirit is always speaking.

F.E.R. Until He has brought about all the will of God. It is a great thing to know, "ye are the temple of God". The work of Christ was to build the house of God. In redemption He laid the foundations and Himself built the house. Everything was prepared for the Holy Spirit to come. All the material was ready on the day of Pentecost, and the Holy Spirit came and the house of God was there.

J.P. The one hundred and twenty men and women represented the blessed end and result of the Lord's work here.

F.E.R. The house was built by Christ and then the oracles of God were there. They were not in the temple at Jerusalem or with the chief priests, but in the temple, and the preaching went out from the temple.

J.P. I am wonderfully impressed with how this truth

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excludes man, and how it leads people to get into touch with God.

F.E.R. That is the point before the mind of the apostle. He says at the end of chapter 3, "If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that be may be wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God", that is His estimation of man.

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SIGHT, OBJECT, SATISFACTION

Luke 18:35 - 43; Luke 19:1 - 10

In the incidents I have read there are three points on which I want to touch. The first is the opening of the eyes of the blind man. The second is the result of that; that is, he followed Jesus, glorifying God. The third point is seen in another incident. In chapter 19 Christ becomes the satisfaction of the heart. Now in our experience things follow pretty much in that order. The first thing is for the eyes to be opened; the next thing is to find the path, and the path is there. The Lord often speaks of it, it is to follow Christ; and in following Christ we find satisfaction for our hearts. It is a great thing to reach that point. It will remind us of what the Lord said in the fourth of John, "whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life".

I speak first in regard of the opening of the eyes of the blind man. It was not an uncommon miracle with the Lord. It has been said that there was an idea among the Jews that opening the eyes of the blind was a miracle reserved for Messiah. I do not think you will find any case in the Old Testament of the eyes of a blind man being opened. I would not lay much stress upon that, but as a matter of fact, we know that was one of the particular things which the Lord did. He did it literally, but He did it morally too. In the case in John 9 it was not only that the man's eyes were opened literally, but the eyes of his mind were opened. What came to pass was analogous to what we get here, Jesus revealed Himself to him as Son of God, and he worshipped Him. That was the end of it. In other words, the man recognised Jesus in that way and did Him homage. I think that was really the work of Christ, for the Lord evidently did not attach much importance

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to the miracles He did except in so far as they were witnesses to who He was and whence He came. The Lord did not attach importance to faith which rested simply on miracles, "many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did. But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men". The point was this, that a link between God and man should be formed by the word of God, not by miracles. People might be struck with wonder at miracles, and forget all about them, and therefore they were not any real link between man and Christ. Those who have a real link are those that hear the word of God and do it. Nothing ever proved how completely blind man was, like the coming of Christ into the world. If a man is short-sighted and you draw his attention to some object in the distance, he may not see it, but that man sees the sun. If a man does not see the sun you have proof that he is blind, and that was the case when Christ was here. The proof of the condition of man spiritually was the coming of Christ into the world, "I am come a light into the world". One might almost render it, 'a luminary', and the light was not apprehended of men. "The light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not". The Jews at the first had a certain regard to Christ on account of what He did and said. It could not be denied. Even their messengers had to say, "Never man spake like this man". Man ought to have seen in Christ, and did see in a kind of way, though he would not acknowledge it, that God was presented in Him. He was the Light; He declared God. No one had seen God at any time, the "only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him". He did not speak from Himself. Whatever He said or did had its source in the Father. He did the Father's will and spoke the Father's mind. There was something totally different in Christ to anything that had been seen or heard before. He declared God. Every word He spoke told of God. The Lord could speak of things He knew and of what He had seen. No prophet could ever have spoken in that way. A

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prophet could not say, "We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen". Christ alone could say that. He made known what was in the heart of God toward man. Not only what God was in His blessed nature; but in His disposition toward man down here, that came out continually in Christ. I do not think anything describes adequately what Christ was down here save to say that He was the expression of God's disposition toward man, and the truth is not less than this, that God was brought close to man where man was, and men found themselves in the light of divine goodness. We talk a good deal about the new covenant, but Christ was the new covenant. God would no longer approach man by law and prophets as in old times, but by the Son. The law was the old covenant and when the people had broken down under the old covenant, God sent prophets to recall them to allegiance -- but Christ was the new covenant. He was the expression of God's disposition toward man down here; like the warmth of the sun brought close to man. Do you think, when the Lord Jesus was here that any person had cause to be afraid of God? God was brought near to man in goodness. The Lord could be severe on hypocrisy, but we would not have it otherwise. There would be no security for you and me if there were the least dark spot in God. I have often thought that a great deal of infidel reasoning which would go to prove that God is unjust and arbitrary, would make a very poor look-out for you and me. The best security for us is that God is good and only good, and that was made manifest to man in the presence of the Lord Jesus here on earth. God had brought Himself close to man, and man could see what was in the heart of God, not toward good men but toward sinful men on earth. You will find this coming out in the case of Zacchaeus; it was really God come into the house of the sinner to bring salvation to that house. Zacchaeus was hardly converted yet. He did not know much about the Lord, but there was a desire which no doubt grace had wrought in him to see Christ, and Christ came into his house, and in the fact of

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being in his house He brought salvation to the house. The disposition of God to the sinner was salvation.

Now the great mass of people were quite blind. They did not discern the light; they did not care about God. People in the present day, too, think a great deal more about the almighty dollar than about God. They do not care much for goodness or grace or righteousness or love or holiness. I never came across a man who naturally cared to hear about holiness and righteousness, what is morally perfect. That is too severe for people. They are content to accept things as they are. They are much like the people of Gadara, more content to have the man with the legion of devils than to have Christ who cast out the devils. Whatever may be the evils of the world, and people admit them -- man would rather have the world as it is, and the devils, than have Christ here who would talk to them about the love and the holiness and the righteousness and the faithfulness of God. People take no account of these things, and yet any sober person must admit that they are right. Surely there are such things as holiness and righteousness and truth, all have come to light in the revelation of God. In Christ that revelation was there.

But there was another thing that should have been apprehended in Christ, that was, He was a Man pre-eminent above all other men. This came out at the birth of the Lord, in the acclamation of the heavenly host; then again, at the baptism of the Lord the Spirit of God descended upon Him; then on the mount of transfiguration the voice came from heaven; it was evidenced repeatedly that He was not like any other man. He was the anointed Man and pre-eminent; the first, and qualified in that way to be intelligence for man down here. He was on the one hand the revelation of God, bringing home to man what the disposition of God was toward man, but by the very fact of that, He was the one Man, and the only One who was competent to be intelligence for man. The apostles found that out. If I may use the expression, they gave up their own heads and trusted Christ, and they were right.

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Christ guided them. So with Mary of Bethany, Mary Magdalene and others, they gave up their own heads. No other intelligence than Christ was any good to them. They had been drawn to Christ by grace, and they accepted Christ as their intelligence and Christ led them to a very blessed result. He led them to the Spirit, and He could not have led them to any better end.

As a matter of fact, very few eyes were opened. There is a remarkable expression in regard of the Lord in the prophet Isaiah, "I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain", and yet there was result, so that the Lord Jesus could say, "Behold, I and the children which God hath given me", but the mass of people who came in contact with the Lord were manifestly blind. They did not see God when God was there, in the divinely-appointed Man who alone was qualified to be wisdom for man. He is made wisdom to us, that is, intelligence. He alone could lead men through the perplexities of this world of moral confusion, where there is no way.

I go on to the next point and that is as to what the blind man did. He followed Jesus, glorifying God. Now, I want to say a word or two in regard of following, because our eyes have been opened that we might follow Christ. The earth does not travel, so to speak, of its own will; it follows in its own appointed orbit. You get the thought in regard of the sheep, "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me". Just as the sun holds the earth to itself by the power of attraction, so Christ holds the sheep to Himself by the like power. "I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me", and so in the passage I just quoted. All is, of course, moral, not physical, as in the universe. Jesus says, "and I know them", that is, I hold them to Myself, "and they follow me". The expression is a strange one. You could have understood the people following the Lord when He was here upon earth, but it is a little more difficult to entertain the idea of following at the present time, because

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Christ is no longer here, but sitting at the right hand of God -- and when He moves from the right hand of God it will be in the execution of judgment for the age to come. But at the present time there is such a thing as following Christ, and if you do not follow Christ it is not a good sign. If I were not following Christ I would be settling down content with the present order of things in this world. If you follow Christ you are always in movement, for the Lord is in movement, not in actual physical movement, but He walks in the midst of the golden candlesticks, and ever will be in movement until He brings about the result which God intends. You remember the word in Psalm 40, "I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart". Until Christ has accomplished the will of God and has made righteousness to be the law of the moral universe, there will be no cessation in the activity of Christ; and I think it is an immense point to follow the activities of Christ. If we trace the history of christianity we can see all along the line the activities of Christ, and we can discern those activities by the Spirit at the present time; it is a great thing to be aroused out of quiescence and satisfaction with the course of things down here to feel the activities of Christ, and to have our minds set on the result that Christ will bring about for the glory of God, "looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life". Jesus alone glorified God and you will only glorify God by following Jesus; there is a way of acting as He acts, and it is for us to follow Him in that way of activity, and to have clearly and definitely as the standard before our minds the great result which Christ intends to bring about for the glory of God. It is all-important to us to see that everything is to be headed up in Christ for God's glory.

Now, if we have reached the second step and are following Jesus, we shall find Jesus the satisfaction of our hearts. Look again at the case of Zacchaeus. The people said, "He is gone to be guest with a man that is a sinner". They only thought of Zacchaeus as a lawless man, but they

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were all lawless. They did not believe in the Lord; they mistrusted Him, and yet were continually complaining of what He did. Now, Zacchaeus did, in a way, believe in Christ. I do not know how far this may have gone; but the Lord had called him down from the tree and said, "today I must abide at thy house". 'Today' is an expressive word in Luke. The same expression was used to the repentant thief on the cross. Now the Lord brought satisfaction to the heart of Zacchaeus, for He was Himself salvation. I believe it is that to which Christ would bring us now and not simply in the future; and I want to say a word in regard to what I understand salvation to imply. It is such an important point, and is continually presented in Scripture as the satisfaction of the heart of the pious man. I believe salvation to be a present reality. In the Old Testament we find a passage like this, "The Lord is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear?" I recall another passage, "say unto my soul, I am thy salvation". In the New Testament we have, "Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word: for mine eyes have seen thy salvation". So, too, Paul in preaching to the gentiles, says, speaking of Christ, "I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth". So he laboured for the elect, "that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory". Here it is, "This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham". You will never know what salvation is if you do not apprehend that Christ Himself is it. It is not that He has acquired salvation, but that He is salvation and nothing short of Christ is it. What do you think is going to be salvation in the world to come? I have no doubt there will be a very great and universal display of salvation then. In the world to come Christ fills all things, the vessel will hold no more, and the very fact of its being filled by Christ will exclude that which is not of Him. In the world to come Satan and death will have no power. Death will be swallowed up of

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victory, and Satan will be bound. They will have no authority there, they will be excluded, because all will be filled by Christ. Hence in that day it is not at all difficult to see that Christ will be salvation. So you can understand the expression in the Psalms, "say unto my soul, I am thy salvation", for the Psalms are all looking on to the world to come. Now you and I have to abide within the limits of Christ. You may think that a strange expression, but I am sure it is important. You may remember the case of Shimei with Solomon. Shimei was liable to death, but Solomon appointed certain limits to Shimei in Jerusalem, outside of which if he went, there was death. I think in the present day God has appointed certain moral limits in regard to us, outside of which there is only moral death, and our wisdom is to abide within the limits which God has appointed. I will give you another case, that of the man-slayer in Israel, he fled to the city of refuge and abode there until the death of the high priest. Now we have fled to a city of refuge, and have to abide there until the change of the priesthood. My point is that you and I have to abide within the limits of Christ down here. I see a very great deal in christendom which is outside the limits of Christ; the world and Christ are so mixed up that there is a vast deal entirely outside of the limits of Christ. There is such a thing as Christ down here, and the limits of Christ down here are coextensive with the limits of the Spirit, and the point for us is to keep within the limits of the Spirit which are found in the true people of God. Therefore I would say, if you want to realise salvation, to be free of the influence and power of the world, and of Satan, and of moral death, keep well within the bounds of the Spirit. Be careful to keep clear of the flesh and of associations that do not take their character from Christ. The Spirit is here, not on His own account, but as the Spirit of Christ, and the Spirit will maintain everything here according to Christ; and there is such a thing as to retire from that which is outside of the boundaries of Christ within the limits of the Spirit. It is a great thing to abide in

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Christ, so as to be free from the lawlessness of man. It may be said there is difficulty about it. But it is simple, and if we have discernment we ought to be able to distinguish between what is of the Spirit and what is not of the Spirit. Every influence outside of the boundaries exposes us to the world and the god and prince of it. Christ is salvation to you; keep within the boundaries of Christ and you are in salvation. It is a blessed thing to see that there is salvation, and that it lies in the saints, for when we speak of Christ being here, it is in the saints; therefore salvation lies in the association of the saints, and it is a great thing if we accept that and seek to be more qualified for associations which are of the Spirit and according to Christ. That is what I would enjoin, to seek that Christ may be the unfailing satisfaction of your heart, and you cannot have Christ in your heart without the saints, because Christ is here in the saints by the Spirit. It says in 1 Corinthians 12, "For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ". You get the thought in the prayer in Ephesians 3, "That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height". Cultivate relations with the saints which are in the Spirit, for in so doing, you are furthering that which is of Christ, and that is a point to which we ought to be bent down here. The effect will be, as it was with Zacchaeus, that Christ will be the satisfaction of your heart.

If you profess to regard Christ and ignore the saints, you will not give pleasure to Christ, because Christ has pleasure in the saints, and there is activity on the part of Christ to promote Himself in the hearts of His people down here. You can afford to turn your back on the world and to follow Christ in the blessed activities which lead to the divinely-appointed result, and as surely as you keep well within the limits of Christ, so surely will you find

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yourself free from the bondage of the world and the fear of Satan and of the last enemy, that is death. You will have salvation for the satisfaction of your heart, and will be able to say, "The Lord is my light and my salvation".

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CHRIST'S WORD OF COUNSEL

Revelation 3:14 - 22; Luke 8:26 - 40

We get in these addresses to the churches an admonition to the one that has an ear. "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches". I regard this as being a very important point, for in these seven churches we get a kind of consecutive history of the church as a whole. These addresses were sent to seven assemblies that actually existed at the time in Asia Minor, but any one who has perception can see that we get in them a tracing of the history of the church, in a moral point of view, from beginning to end. Ephesus presents to us the beginning, and Laodicea, indeed all the last four, the end. Laodicea presents one particular phase of the end. Now these things were written at the beginning, two thousand years ago, and yet in all the Spirit has a particular voice to us, at the end; that is what I refer to at the present time.

We all believe that the Spirit of God abides here. There never was any thought of the Spirit departing. The Lord said in regard to the Spirit, "I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever". Not like the Lord Himself, who had to leave. He had a work to accomplish, and having accomplished that work He sat down at the right hand of God. But the Comforter was to come and to continue with the disciples forever. And so long as the Spirit abides He has a living voice to one that has an ear to hear. Not simply in what He says to one church in particular, but in what He says to the churches. I hope that we shall be attentive to what the Spirit has to say. The Spirit has no new revelations. When once the word of God was complete there was nothing to be added. There could be nothing added after Christ. That is the crown. Previously God had spoken by prophets, but when once God spoke

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by the Son there could be nothing added. That thought would commend itself to any right-minded person. The Spirit is now here to bring home to us what has been spoken; if you apprehend the fact that the Spirit is remaining here, you could not doubt that the Spirit has something to say to the churches. And it is a proof of divine goodness to us if our ears are open to hear what He has to say.

There are three points I want to take up in connection with what we have before us. The first is the way in which Christ introduces Himself, which is important. The next is the condition of those to whom the Lord addresses Himself, and the third point is the counsel of the Lord. He gives counsel. You could scarcely have a better proof of grace than that the Lord should give them counsel while rebuking them in regard to their condition.

I will ask you to look at verses 14 and 21. The last indicates to us the position of Christ at the present time. He does not yet sit on His own throne, but for the moment on the Father's throne. I may speak of that as being provisional. It is the position He has for the moment, so to speak. The moment will come to pass when Christ will sit upon His own throne. I allude to that in connection with the way in which the Lord addresses the assembly as "the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God". I daresay all have considered these expressions. They will not suggest any particular difficulty to you. I take it "the Amen" is the confirmation of the divine promises; that is the character in which Christ comes out. But not that alone, He is the faithful and true Witness, which I take to be in contrast to that which Israel and the church have been. At the beginning the Lord warns the assembly that if it did not repent the candlestick would be taken out of its place, and that warning has hung over the church from the beginning until now, and the candlestick will be removed. In one sense it has been, in regard to the particular church spoken to, but in a larger sense it will be taken out of its

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place, when the church has fully proved itself an unfaithful witness; and it is in contrast to that, that Christ comes out as the faithful and true Witness. He has proved Himself that. He witnessed a good confession here. There is still another word spoken of the Lord. He says, "the beginning of the creation of God". Now it is not at all difficult to apprehend what God's creation is. We might have thought of Adam as a beginning of God's creation, so far as man is concerned, but the truth is that Christ is the beginning of the creation of God. He is also the crown of it. If you build a house, when you lay the foundation, you involve the roof. The foundation is made for the roof; and Christ is not simply the crown of creation but the foundation of it morally. It is a very important point to recognize this, for it involves that the moment will come when creation will take its character from Christ. I notice that wherever God was dealing with people, from the beginning of the world, He was producing some trait of Christ. Enoch, Noah, Abraham and David all bore some trait of Christ because Christ was morally the beginning. He had not yet become man, but He was the Man of God's purpose, and everything should bear some trait of Him.

There was nothing comely but what was of Christ. Christ is thus morally the crown of creation and the beginning. All that is connected with His being seated on His own throne. That is, He comes out in that light, in what we may speak of as kingdom characters. What is in view is the world to come. The Lord speaks to Philadelphia as having the key of David, as opening and no man shutting. This undoubtedly speaks of the place and right of David in regard to things down here; so the titles in this address are in view of His leaving the Father's throne and taking His own throne.

In regard to that I ask, Do you know what will mark the throne of Christ? Look at Hebrews 1:8, 9. I refer to that because we get in it the moral foundation of the throne. That is the love of righteousness and the hatred of lawlessness. When Christ came, He came to undo the

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works of the devil. "For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil". The works of the devil were seen in that good and evil were entangled in this world, and Christ came that He might disentangle them. Everything here is in confusion, but Christ has come to bring the confusion to an end. He came where lawlessness was, but He loved righteousness; and therefore when He is upon His own throne the characteristic of the throne will be the maintenance of righteousness after the putting down of lawlessness. All that will come out in a very distinct way when Christ occupies His throne. If you look abroad in the world men are universally lawless. They may be moral, and yet lawless. If you were to ask me who are the most lawless people in the world, I should say the great leaders of public thought, because they claim unrestricted liberty for the human mind, and that means, in principle, the exclusion of revelation, because in the very nature of things, if there be revelation, the human mind must be bounded -- the human mind cannot judge of the revelation of God. And yet that is what is claimed at the present day. I call it lawlessness, and yet a certain sort of righteousness or morality may be connected with it. In fact, Scripture leads us to think so, because it tells us that even Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light, and his ministers into ministers of righteousness, whose end shall be according to their works. You may be very confident that the devil and his angels are essentially lawless, and men are lawless; and the more they claim liberty the more they make lawlessness apparent. That will come to an end when Christ comes out as the faithful and true Witness, the beginning of the creation of God. Every family will be brought into attachment to Christ and the result will be that righteousness will rule and lawlessness will be abolished. The present is a moment of testimony when Christ does not assert His rights. His rights are for the moment in abeyance. But everything will be changed when He comes.

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I will dwell for a moment upon the character of the people to whom the Lord addresses Himself here. Verses 15, 17. They are professedly christians, these who bear His name; all is spoken to the assembly and what marks it? One thing is indifference, and the other is pretension. There is indifference, lukewarmness, indifference of the worst kind, because it is indifference to Christ -- and on the other hand there is amazing pretension. They are rich and increased in goods and have need of nothing. I would not speak of this if I did not believe that a great deal of that character is to be seen abroad at the present time. There is undoubtedly a class of people in this world unable to discriminate between lawlessness and righteousness. They have no real apprehension of moral principles according to God, because they have no right apprehension of Christ. They are indifferent, lukewarm, neither cold nor hot, and yet, on the other hand, there is with them pretension. There is nothing they will not touch. They will touch Scripture by the human mind with unbounded confidence. They will undertake to bring before you the original sources of Scripture. They will subject Scripture to criticism. And they appear to know more about Scripture than either Christ or the apostles knew. There is a large class of people of that kind in the world at the present time, practically indifferent to Christ, claiming the liberty of the human mind to judge of the records which the Spirit of God has been pleased to give to us. Now, the Lord speaks of them as being poor and blind, and wretched and miserable, and that is really their true description -- it is the mind of the Lord in regard to them. They have no spiritual riches, and they are blind, for any one that does not see Christ is blind.

Any one that does not see the sun in the heavens is manifestly blind. And if a man is blind in regard to Christ, he can have no true moral perception. The perception of moral principles and the discriminating of right and wrong is dependent on the apprehension of Christ, who is the Sun of righteousness, who has loved righteousness

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and hated lawlessness; and I defy any man, whatever may be his natural ability or his cultivation, to give you a right idea of righteousness and lawlessness if he has not the apprehension of Christ; and I can understand the Lord speaking of such as being "wretched and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked", with all their pretension. Nothing is more nauseous to Christ than indifference. "I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth". If they were not professedly christian it could not be said that the Lord would spue them out of His mouth. He could not spue the heathen out of His mouth. They are nauseous to Him by their lukewarmness and by their amazing pretension. It is the pretension of the human mind. They can say, We have the resources of knowledge and research at our disposal, we are rich and increased with goods, and we prefer to trust to the monuments which have come within the reach of man's observation rather than to the records which God has been pleased to give us, we judge of these records by what has come under the observation of the human mind.

I come now to what is much more interesting, that is the counsel of the Lord. He says, verse 18: "I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eye-salve, that thou mayest see. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous, therefore, and repent". What strikes me is the wonderful grace on the part of the Lord to give such a word of counsel. It is not His pleasure to spue them out of His mouth, and in such a state of things as we have here the Lord has a word to say. Whatever christianity is, at the lowest ebb, the Lord has a word of counsel. A word which I think would do all good if every one took it well to heart. He counsels them to buy. Buy is a word in Scripture. "Buy wine and milk without money and without price". What I understand by it is the necessity of a transaction with

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Christ. It is not buying in the sense in which we understand buying, for if you buy anything in this world you will have to pay a price for it; but buying is figurative of a transaction. It is the soul having a transaction with Christ. He counsels them to buy gold tried in the fire. It is an important point to be rich. Most people in this world would not object to be rich, but the point is, as to what is riches. Riches in this world are very artificial; what people esteem to be riches, that is gold, would not be of the slightest value if the sun did not shine, for if the sun did not shine there would not be any fertility, and there would be nothing for gold to obtain. It happens that the sun does shine and there is fertility on earth and gold has a value; but in gold there is no moral value, and Christ will not appreciate anything in which there is no moral value. "I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire". I will tell you what is true riches. Righteousness. I do not think any other riches are true. The apostle speaks of the unsearchable riches of Christ. Christ is the true riches, because He is righteous ness. That is what I understand to be figured by "gold tried in the fire". Righteousness is no small thing to be possessed of. You have no riches if you have not Christ. It is a great thing to be rich toward God. Man may have millions in this world's goods, but what does it all come to when a man dies? Does he take one single stiver with him? He leaves it all behind, and does not know what it will accomplish, whether good or evil. But supposing Christ be your riches, when you die will you leave your riches behind? I do not think you will. The point is this, we are already attached to Christ risen from the dead, and hence death touches one very little; if we are married to Him who is raised from the dead, death cannot touch us severely. And the riches we have now we will not lose in death. That expression "gold tried in the fire" is remarkable. In Christ you get the rights of God having their full place in a Man. The Lord Jesus was here the righteous One. God's law was within His heart. The righteousness was subjected to the fire, and in that way tested, in Christ

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entering into the judgment which lay upon us. And now you have gold tried in the fire. And Christ is available as righteousness to us because the righteousness has been tried in the fire. Righteousness is not a thing you can lose when you die, it entails glory beyond. Therefore righteousness is great riches, Righteousness and glory are intimately connected in Scripture; if I have Christ for righteousness there remains one thing, I shall have Christ for glory, and in that day it will be a great deal. There is no inherent value in gold, and men have their riches only by the long-suffering of God. All that will come to a close, and the day will arrive when nothing will avail but righteousness.

One word more, "I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear". It is very important for us that we should be clothed. "Naked" in scripture is a word employed with terrible force. To be naked is to be Christ-less, and we want something to cover our nakedness. I will tell you what I understand by white raiment, it is pure and undefiled religion, and that is to visit the fatherless and the widows, in their affliction, and to keep yourself unspotted from the world. I would advise everybody to buy it. You do not want fine clothing. It will only commend you to the unthinking and vain people of this world; the thing is to be clothed morally; to keep yourself in this world and to be marked as one who visits the widow and the fatherless in their affliction. That you will get from Christ. It is really as Christ affects the heart that anyone would desire to be clothed in white raiment "that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear".

One thing more, The Lord says, "anoint thine eyes with eye-salve, that thou mayest see". It is a great thing to get spiritual sight, because then you begin to distinguish between good and evil, lawlessness and righteousness. You see everything like a sane person. In a dream little pieces of your experience are pieced together in some

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incongruous way, and everything is seen out of proportion and relation. There is a good deal in common between madness and dreaming, only that a mad man does not come to the recovery of his senses, as we do after dreaming. A mad man has really not got eyes mentally. He does not see things in proportion. To see everything in its true proportion and relation is one of the greatest mercies which the Lord can confer upon us. People in the world see many things in the most exaggerated way, and other things which are vastly more important are very small in their eyes. I defy anyone to see things right apart from Christ, otherwise you have no true measure. We see that illustrated in the case of the demoniac. That miracle is full of teaching, it brings before us one very important point in regard of Christ. He was manifested to undo the works of the devil, and the work of the devil has been to bring into this world confusion. You see many beautiful things in the world. The love of a mother to a child is beautiful, so is love between brothers and sisters. There are abundant traces of God's mercy in the world, which are beautiful, but they are marred by lawlessness which lies even under natural affections in the heart of man. Now one effect of the coming of Christ will be to resolve everything, and that is what was seen in the case of the demoniac, The man was delivered from lawlessness, and the power of Satan, and the legion of devils went into the herd of swine, and they ran down into the sea, and perished in the waters. Where is the Jew at the present time who rejected Christ? He has been hurried down into the sea of the gentiles, and is perished. Solemn things came to pass in connection with the advent of the Lord into this world. A little remnant was delivered and brought into the enjoyment of the Holy Spirit, but the great mass of the people possessed by the unclean devils were hurried on to destruction. The wrath of God came upon them to the uttermost. The man that was delivered sat at the feet of Jesus, He was no longer lawless. Had he been he would not have been sitting there. He was brought into attachment.

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He had Jesus in a way for righteousness. He had been naked, but he was naked no longer. He was clothed, and was in his right mind. He no longer saw things in a terrible and fearful and distorted way, but according to their true measure and proportion. Now that is the character and effect of the work of Christ. What a blessed work! In connection with Christ we have to face terrible things because everything is brought to an issue. Everything has been brought to an issue with the Jew, and everything will be brought to an issue as to the gentiles. This is a great moment of opportunity for the gentiles, but how will they use it? They will turn apostate and set up antichrist. They too will be hurried to destruction by a legion of unclean devils, but God takes care to accomplish His own blessed purposes. The poor demoniac was delivered. Very likely a few may be delivered from Laodicea. Who can say but that some of that class of people may give heed to the counsel of the Lord and buy gold tried in the fire and white raiment to clothe their nakedness and anoint their eyes with eye-salve so that they may see? If your soul is brought into contact with Christ of necessity you take up things very seriously. There are such serious things connected with the coming in of Christ. Righteousness and lawlessness are bound to be disentangled. Where is the disentanglement going on at the present time? In each of us, that we may be in accord with Christ, hating lawlessness and loving righteousness. It is a good thing to have gold tried in the fire, and to be marked off from the covetousness and folly which characterize the people of the world; to be clothed in pure and undefiled religion and to have our eyes anointed with eye-salve, so as to have true discernment between things that differ, between what is according to God and what is not according to God in our pathway through this world. To put it in the language of Scripture, to have the "senses exercised to discern both good and evil". May God give grace to all of us that we may take heed to the gracious counsel of the Lord. And then what follows? The Lord says: To him that

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overcometh I will accord communion, I will sup with him, I will enter into his things and he shall enter into My things; and glory shall follow. He shall sit with Me in My throne. Present communion and glory to follow. The Lord engages Himself to that for the overcomer. If we are going with the current we are not overcoming. There is not much sign of vitality. The proof of vitality is, that you are going against the current, and as sure as you are here in this world, in whatever association and condition of things you may be found, the current will be against you. And therefore there is great grace in the promise to the overcomer.

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READINGS ON 1 CORINTHIANS (2)

1 Corinthians 12:1 - 31

F.E.R. I think that in going on we must keep the main thought before us, I mean Christ, as the wisdom of God and the power of God.

J.P. I think you remarked yesterday afternoon that in each epistle we have Christ presented in a certain way. The apprehending of this is really the key to the understanding of what the epistle presents.

F.E.R. That is evident enough, for every epistle was indited by the Spirit of God. So Christ must be the subject. And the Spirit of God never travels the same ground twice. Of course, the presentation in each epistle goes to make up the fulness of Christ. You have completeness, but all is given to us in detail. "We know in part", that is, in detail, but all is put together in one by the Spirit of God in the mind of the believer.

W.M. Is that what is referred to in Timothy, "Have an outline of sound words", a sort of sketch?

F.E.R. Yes. I have no doubt that the leading thought in this epistle is Christ, as the wisdom and power of God, to establish what is of God and to bring to nought what existed, because the two cannot exist together. I mean influences and powers which came in when God was not known could not exist when God revealed Himself.

J.P. I think you went on to say yesterday afternoon, in chapter three, we see what God has established.

F.E.R. We might go back to what was antecedent. Previously to divine dealings in Israel, you do not get anything established. Promises were given, but God did not establish anything until after there was a figure of redemption. Of course, it is typical. Israel had the oracles of God. The ark of the covenant and the Urim and the Thummim were there. There were two things, the oracles of God and also, what I may call, the medium. It is very

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like light and the sun. Light is supposed to be ether, some subtle kind of fluid set in vibration by the sun. So the oracles were there in Israel, the ark of the covenant, and the mercy-seat, and Israel was the vessel to put the light in movement so that the world might get the benefit. Israel failed and the consequence was the world never got the benefit. Israel sank down to the level of the world. The name of God was blasphemed among the gentiles through them. God never intended Israel to be shut up from the nations.

J.P. Does it not say in connection with the temple that it was to be "a house of prayer for all nations"?

F.E.R. Exactly. That is the place which God had assigned to Israel. We know about Israel and their failure; then we find the same thoughts taken up in Christ personally. On the one hand, there was the temple of God. His body was the temple. He says, "Destroy this temple". The temple was there and the oracles; and the anointed Man also, to put the truth in movement, so that it might reach men. You get those thoughts presented in John 2:18 - 22, and Luke 4:16 - 19. They take up what had been foreshadowed in Israel. All had broken down in connection with Israel, the oracles had become of no value to them or anybody else because Israel had become opaque. There was no shining out in them,

J.P. Instead of that, as Paul says in Romans 3, the name of God was blasphemed among the gentiles through them.

F.E.R. And more than that, afterwards they did their utmost to prevent the gospel from going to the gentiles. It was their crowning sin. "Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway". But God had intended that the light should shine out through them; that they should be a medium to put the light in activity for the benefit of the gentiles. Then Christ comes in as the temple, and at the same time there is the other thought which is really distinct, though the two are bound together in the same Person, that is, of the anointed Man to preach the gospel to the

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poor. The temple was there whether He preached or not, but He was the anointed Man to preach.

W.M. Do you mean that He was the great depositary of the mind of God? He was the Son of God. Of necessity the oracles of God were there, but He was the anointed vessel of the Spirit of God to put the whole in movement. He gives impulse, like the sun.

F.E.R. "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me", to that end.

W.M. So that everything foreshadowed in Israel was established in Christ.

F.E.R. It came to pass in Christ personally, and in that sense He is the resource of God.

R.S.S. I was wondering why it was that God was constantly presenting something first, that does not prove to be the real thing.

F.E.R. That has been the divine way, showing that nothing could be entrusted to anyone short of Christ. The creature could not be trusted.

J.S.A. Behind all that is the blessed thought that God is determined to make Himself known to men.

F.E.R. Hence you get the temple, but not only the temple as the light, but the sun. The same two thoughts are taken up in 1 Corinthians. In chapter 3 we have the temple, in chapter 12 the anointed vessel; and by the anointed vessel the light is to be scattered.

W.M. Then you look at it in a way as analogous to creation, first the light, then the impulse; the temple is the light, Christ is the sun.

F.E.R. Quite so. There was the temple first and then the vessel to put the truth in movement so that it may reach men. In chapter 3 the church occupies a place corresponding to that which Christ occupies as a temple, "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God?" The oracles of God were there; and in chapter 12 we have the Christ, that is, the anointed vessel; and it is there that you get the manifestations of the Spirit, by which an impulse is given to the truth so that it becomes practically beneficial to man.

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J.P. That is, that all that came to pass personally in Christ when here is continued in the saints.

F.E.R. In the church. Really in "the Christ". The church is a continuation of Christ morally.

G.R. Is that the idea connected with the body?

F.E.R. Yes, it says you are Christ's body.

R.S.S. Would you say what is the difference between "Christ" and "the Christ"?

F.E.R. Christ is Jesus personally, but "the Christ" gives a more official idea, "As in the Adam all die, thus also in the Christ all shall be made alive". He is looked at as Head.

R.S.S. And in that way includes the body?

F.E.R. I would not say that is always the case.

R.S.S. At times?

F.E.R. In this chapter we get "the Christ" and it does not exactly mean Christ personally. The object in view in this chapter is the body, and the chapter does not go beyond the body. It explains, "For by one Spirit are we all baptised into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit". You could not include Christ in that.

J.P. Neither could you include Him personally in what immediately precedes, "For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is the Christ".

F.E.R. The thought does not go beyond the anointed vessel down here, the chapter is taken up with the manifestations of the Spirit. It opens with "But concerning spiritual manifestations", and that means the truth put into activity to become beneficial to man, as Christ was anointed with the Spirit to preach the gospel to the poor.

J.P. It makes the truth diffusive.

W.M. And although Christ is personally absent, the anointed vessel is still here.

F.E.R. What came out in Christ is continued in the assembly.

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W.M. And therefore in this chapter things are pursued from the side of the body.

F.E.R. I think in that we can discern that Christ is the wisdom and the power of God.

Ques. Would you say the church occupies the same place in the world that Israel once did?

F.E.R. You get various thoughts foreshadowed in Israel perfectly expressed in Christ, and now coming out in the church by the Spirit; Christ has ascended up on high and communicated the Spirit in order that that which was set forth in Him should now be set forth in the church. So you get gifts in connection with that, apostles, prophets, teachers, the word of wisdom. All that refers to the diffusing of the oracles.

Ques. What is the distinction between that which you have just been mentioning and the gifts in Ephesians?

F.E.R. In Ephesians the point is the formation of the body. That is different ground. Ephesians is on the ground of divine counsels. Corinthians is not exactly that, but the bringing out of that which God has been pleased to establish here in order to overthrow all that existed. It is an elementary epistle. There are certain epistles which go more on the ground of divine counsel and Ephesians is one of them.

W.M. I suppose an epistle like this presents the elements of christianity.

F.E.R. Yes; that is, the bearing of God in regard to man. It is most important to see the two things, and not to allow one to exclude the other. There is the attitude of God toward man, but there are counsels of God which He will establish. Some epistles go on the one line and some on the other. "The kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared". That is not the counsel of God exactly, but in Ephesians and Colossians and some other writings, the ground is the counsels of God. The apostle says here in chapter 2, "We speak wisdom among them that are perfect", which meant he could not speak wisdom to the Corinthians as they were.

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W.M. So the epistle to the Corinthians does not present saints as being in the good of spiritual things, but rather the truth of what God is for man.

F.E.R. It is what God has established down here to deliver man from the domination of what existed.

R.S.S. It is remarkable that he addresses them in chapter 3 as the temple of God, and then again in this chapter as the body of Christ.

F.E.R. It is very simple. It is the same in principle as John 2 and Luke 4.

R.S.S. What I meant was that he could not speak of them as spiritual, yet he addresses them in that way.

F.E.R. He only takes up facts. Whatever might be their state, nothing could change the fact that they were the temple of God and the Spirit of God dwelt there. The same thing holds good regarding chapter 12. Whatever might be the confusion and the disorder which existed, even in their coming together, it did not alter the fact that they were "the Christ". They had been baptised by one Spirit into one body and had been made all to drink into one Spirit. The apostle uses it to show them what was involved, the holiness of God's temple involved the exclusion of man's mind, because man's mind cannot entertain the idea of the holiness of God's temple; and so too the thought of the one body excluded any pre-eminence on the part of any man.

W.M. Why does the truth of the temple necessarily exclude man's mind?

F.E.R. Because man's mind could never understand the holiness of God. If you have to do with the Spirit of God, man's mind can have no place. If you get a man giving the reins to the activity of his mind, that man has no sense of the Spirit, or of the holiness of God.

W.M. I suppose man's mind is excluded in the expression in the Revelation, the city has no need of the sun, no natural light was required.

F.E.R. How many saints in the world are really dominated by man's mind! When you have to do with

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God you do not want your mind in activity. On the other hand, if you recognise the unity of the body, you cannot allow pre-eminence on the part of man. What member of your body is pre-eminent? You cannot tell me nor I you. You cannot have the clergy, ministers, or the like. There was that kind of thing coming in among the Corinthians. Man's mind was active, and they were going after leaders, "I am of Paul, and another I of Apollos".

J.P. So that the truth unfolded in the epistle was what would correct and deliver them, and the same truth now will correct and deliver us.

Rem. I think you said we would have no epistles if there had not been failure in the church.

F.E.R. I would not put it that way, but it was failure in the church that was the immediate occasion of our getting a great many of the epistles. It is difficult to say we would not have had them otherwise.

R.S.S. Do you think the apostle spoke to the Corinthians in that way in order to awaken a sense in them of what was in keeping with what they were?

F.E.R. That is so, but at the same time the value to us is not their correction, but is the substantive truth the Spirit of God brings out.

J.S.A. And we are not altogether free from some of the snares that they were in.

F.E.R. I think not. What brought me out of the Church of England was the recognition of the presence of the Spirit. I saw that the system of the Church of England was inconsistent with the presence of the Spirit. Then with that I began to see, like a great many others, that the idea of a clergy was contrary to the thought of the body of Christ, because if the body be a figure employed in regard to the church, it allows no pre-eminence in any particular member. My eye does not claim any pre-eminence; it serves my foot. On the other hand, my foot answers to my eye.

J.P. And there could be no independence either.

W.M. They are all unselfishly interested in one another.

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F.E.R. So if one member suffer all suffer; if one be honoured all rejoice with it. If you get a man declining in spirituality all the members suffer. On the other hand, if you get a member who is increasing in devotedness and usefulness, all the members rejoice with it.

W.M. It is rather remarkable that what recovers saints lies in the Spirit.

F.E.R. Yes. The first point of recovery of late years was the recognition of the presence of the Spirit.

R.S.S. What do you refer to?

F.E.R. Almost the first paper Mr. Darby wrote, was The notion of a clergyman, dispensationally the sin against the Holy Ghost. He wrote that in 1828.

J.P. He followed that with The nature and unity of the church of God, in 1828.

W.M. He did not come out to start anything new, but got into the light of what existed.

F.E.R. That is the case with all of us. I think the idea has been entertained of building up a kind of pattern church, a kind of organisation according to the original.

J.P. Do you not go with that?

F.E.R. If I were challenged as to what body I am connected with I would say with none, with the exception of the church of God.

E.A. When you quoted that passage just now about the gospel being preached to the poor, did the Lord mean to those who were poor in spirit or poor in circumstances?

F.E.R. I should think more poor in spirit. The "poor and needy". You get the expression in the Psalms. The intervening chapters between three and twelve are detail. I would call them building up of the wall of separation. That is why I proposed going on to chapter 12. In chapter 5 there is the purging of leaven. In chapter 6 saints must not go to law before the unbelievers; in chapter 7 if believers are married they should be married in the Lord, you must not have the confusion of christians and heathen; in chapters 8 to 10 is the fellowship of the death of

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Christ to the exclusion of every other fellowship. It is all building up the wall of separation. In chapters 11 to 14 we see the assembly in function, and in that connection all the manifestations of the Spirit.

J.P. You mean by the assembly in function, the assembly actually convened.

F.E.R. Yes, and what is proper to the assembly when come together. Chapters 5, 6 and 7 are separate. Chapters 8 to 10 go together and 11 to 14 are all one section. The temple of God was apart from what was in the world.

W.M. As regards gifts, all exist in the assembly.

F.E.R. Yes, but they were not intended to give prominence to any person. An apostle was not pre-eminent in the assembly, nor a teacher.

G.R. He was simply a member.

F.E.R. A part of the body.

J.S.A. He might be able to do special service, but had no pre-eminence as to place.

F.E.R. He had to fulfil his function, that was all.

G.W.H. Was there to be a continuance in the gifts you mentioned?

F.E.R. You get in the chapter the expression, "dividing to every man severally as he will". The manifestations of the Spirit are the word of wisdom and the word of knowledge, and I suppose we may have these still.

J.S.A. I think you made an interesting remark in France, that all gifts lie in the Spirit and the Spirit therefore can distribute them now.

F.E.R. I think so. If the Spirit of God saw fit to distribute gifts He could do it.

W.M. That is, Christ is not now actively engaged in giving gifts.

F.E.R. No! He has given them. You can get a gift by desiring it. Mr. Darby used to say that if there were more devotedness there would be more gift. We are to covet earnestly the best gifts.

W.M. That is what you meant when you said once that the gifts were subject to desire.

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F.E.R. Well, they are; that is what comes out in chapter 14 at the beginning.

W.M. So that there is no telling what God would make a man.

F.E.R. I have seen instances of it, when people have got outside the established order in christendom. People come out in service that you never would have expected. I take myself as an instance. I would not have dreamed of having any kind of place in service among men. You get the most unlikely people coming out in that way, if once they recognise the Spirit and the unity of the body; if they do recognise this it involves an obligation to depart from what is contrary to it. It is a sad thing where people begin to recognise the truth and yet determine to go on still with things inconsistent with it; it is playing with the truth.

W.M. You are to be on the right side of the wall of separation.

O.O'B. Would you give us a little word in connection with what you were speaking of, the oracles and the assembly, and the assembly in function, in connection with what we find there. Is the apostle looking around at the ruined condition of things on every side?

F.E.R. But the Spirit of God and the assembly are still here. The point for us is to seek to walk in the truth of it. I am not disposed to go on with what is inconsistent with the truth. One would seek to walk in the practice of the truth, and it is in that way we get a little opportunity of reaching other people. That has been the case with us to a large extent. There was not much in Chicago four years ago, and now there has been a certain impulse which has produced some effect.

G.W.H. Would you say that the way to walk individually is by following righteousness, faith, charity, peace with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart?

F.E.R. I think so.

W.M. That is, the individual does that, not the company.

F.E.R. I recognise no company but the whole body of Christ.

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O.O'B. Who are the "them"?

F.E.R. Two or three like you.

O.O'B. But that is a company.

F.E.R. You cannot call it a company, two or three people calling at your house could hardly be called a company.

W.M. And the church itself is the company.

F.E.R. That is the only company I know of. I decline to recognise any other.

G.W.H. You refuse the word "company".

F.E.R. I do not care very much for the expression. I dislike brethrenism.

O.O'B. What do you mean by that?

F.E.R. Building up a kind of ecclesiastical system on the pattern of the church.

O.O'B. Trying to make your own fellowship.

F.E.R. Anything you will; it works in many ways. A letter of commendation is often only a passport to break bread. Do you think Scripture meant that? People bring a letter of commendation, but do not trouble to hunt up any of the saints during the week.

O.O'B. Would you receive them without a letter?

F.E.R. I would not, but a letter of commendation is commending one to the fellowship of the saints, not simply a passport to break bread. When the apostle gave a letter to Phoebe it was commending her to the care of the saints. If I carried a letter I would try and find some brother in the place, and not simply use it on the Lord's day morning. It is a bit of formality.

O.O'B. But you are well known. Mr. Darby once went into a meeting and was refused and he commended the gathering.

F.E.R. So would I. I am only speaking of the misuse of letters of commendation.

J.S.A. And people often use them just as a means to satisfy their conscience on the Lord's day morning in a strange place and never use them any other day.

F.E.R. I think in going to a strange place one might

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spend some little time in finding some brother in the place.

G.R. In Timothy we read, "he sought me out very diligently and found me".

F.E.R. We want to get out of ecclesiasticism into realities, into following righteousness, charity and peace with them that call upon the Lord out of a pure heart. But in doing that, let us avoid attempting to set up a kind of organisation or system. I do not think that is according to God. I want to be as distinct as possible from all that is in christendom.

J.B. Would that hinder the activity of the Holy Spirit?

F.E.R. That is exactly what it would do, the Holy Spirit will not sanction anything that does not recognise the existence of the whole body of Christ.

R.S.S. I suppose organisation has really excluded the Spirit?

F.E.R. Undoubtedly.

R.S.S. Just referring again to what you said about persons, of course we should be careful that we do not exactly follow man, but that we have discernment.

F.E.R. It is not following men; you follow the spiritual.

R.S.S. You have the judgment and discernment that these men are walking according to God and you walk with them.

F.E.R. And while we seek to walk together we do not keep our elbows out and hold one another at a distance; but at the same time we want to be careful to maintain individuality. In the dark days of the churches it is, "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches".

Rem. We speak of our fellowship.

F.E.R. Christian fellowship is the fellowship of the whole church of God. We have no peculiar fellowship. A great many people may not be in the apprehension of that fellowship, but that does not affect the character of the fellowship.

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Rem. Then at the Lord's day morning meeting we should in our thoughts take in the whole church of God.

F.E.R. I think so. "The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? For we being many are one bread, and one body". That is the whole circle of saints in any given place. You must have that in mind.

W.M. So this epistle begins with, "The church of God which is at Corinth, ... with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord".

J.S.A. And in putting a person away, you put him away because he is not fit for any christian fellowship.

F.E.R. Yes, he is not worthy for any christian to walk with.

W.M. He must be a wicked person.

F.E.R. The man put away at Corinth was not fit for any christian company.

W.M. If that were apprehended, putting away would be a more serious matter with us.

F.E.R. Think what a serious thing it is; take the case of a man put away, and his wife and family still in fellowship, and they see that man branded as a wicked person, put outside, it is a most fearful punishment. I have no doubt in certain cases it is right. If a man has no conscience he will go to some of the systems, but if he has a conscience about the truth he has to sit outside and his family see him there branded as a wicked person. It is almost the greatest punishment you could inflict upon a man.

W.M. And in the case of the man at Corinth it almost killed him.

F.E.R. But God wrought repentance. You must put away leaven, else it would soon corrupt the entire mass.

G.W.H. You were speaking of when we gather to break bread, that our thought should take in all the christians in the city. Why is it then that we do not break bread with

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them all? Is it because they are not calling upon the Lord out of a pure heart?

F.E.R. How could you go back to what you came out from? You cannot build again the things you destroyed.

G.W.H. What sort of a barrier can you raise against any one coming to break bread?

F.E.R. I cannot go to him, but be can come to me.

W.M. Christian fellowship is open to him as to you.

F.E.R. Yes, but he has no apprehension of it; that is the condition of things today.

J.S.A. It is quite possible that a good many among us have no idea of fellowship. It may be a kind of sacramental thing to them.

F.E.R. I think it is a great thing to keep the two great points of the epistle in view. There is one more thought we may have an opportunity of looking at, but the great thought is of the holy temple, and of the one body, the Christ; and to see the place God intended that to have in the world. God has planted His oracles here in the Spirit, and has appointed the body, so that there may be the manifestations of the Spirit that the light and truth might be put into activity. If a person were to go into the assembly, an ignorant person, he was judged of all and had to own that God was among them.

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THE TEMPLE, THE ORACLES AND THE WITNESSES

Luke 4:16 - 22; Acts 2:1 - 47.

A good many of us had the passage in the gospel of Luke under our attention this afternoon, in connection with another passage in the second chapter of the gospel of John. In the latter the Lord speaks of His body as the temple. The Lord passes by the idea of a material temple. The moment had well nigh come for God to declare that "the Most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands". Then in Luke 4 we see Christ as the anointed Man, to preach the gospel to the poor. The one depends upon the other. Till the oracles of God were here in the truest sense there could not be the promulgation of what was God's disposition toward man. In Luke 4 the Lord was making known that disposition. He was the covenant, that is, the expression of the terms on which God saw fit to be with man. He was preaching glad tidings to the poor, healing the broken hearted, preaching deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind. That is what Christ was making known, and the making that known in the power of the Spirit depended on the oracles of God being here. That is, there was a point where God was, and where the mind of God was declared, and that point was Christ Himself. Christ was also the anointed Man to give movement to the truth.

My object is to point out the correspondence between what we read in Acts 2 and what took place in Luke 4, and then to dwell for a moment on the temple of God and the oracles, and the vessels that God employed to diffuse the truth; for the oracles would not otherwise have been available to men. There is another point, and that is the effect produced by the light on those who heard the truth. The effect was great at that time. It has often been said that in that day three thousand persons were converted

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by one sermon, now it takes three thousand sermons to convert one person. Things are very different now, but a great deal depended then on the reality of the temple being there. All those who composed the temple were in the sense of the Spirit's presence. And the apostles were filled with the Holy Spirit, and were suitable instruments morally for the carrying out of God's work, so that so large a number of people was converted, and we see the effect in them, an effect which we can appreciate, and which can find a correspondence in ourselves. That is, "They continued steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers". Everybody would be prepared to admit that it was christianity of a very simple type. There was no organisation or ecclesiastical establishment, or anything of that kind at all, but the saints continuing in this simple way in the apostles' doctrine; for they were not lawless; and in fellowship; they had a common bond; and at the same time in breaking of bread and prayers. Now one word I say first, that is, that the circumstances were entirely changed from what had been -- though nothing was changed in principle. In Luke 4 Christ was Himself the anointed Man in humiliation -- but in Acts 2 redemption had been accomplished, Christ was exalted, and the Holy Spirit given, and, therefore, the circumstances were greatly changed. And yet nothing was changed in principle. That is to say, in Acts 2 we still get the thought of the temple, and of the anointed vessel, with effects which were much greater than by the preaching of the Lord Himself. The Lord foresaw that. He had told the disciples that they would do greater works than He had done, and any thoughtful person can see the force of that, for the power of the Lord corresponded to His place. When He was with the Father, the works would be greater than when He was here in humiliation -- and, therefore, greater works became manifest in connection with the testimony of the apostles than with the service of the Lord Himself. Christ is witnessed of in this chapter as

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exalted to the right hand of God, the starting point of all that which God had in mind to accomplish. Christ is the beginning of the creation of God, the real point of departure. It appears to me to be most important to apprehend Christ as "the beginning". In Colossians it is said, "who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the pre-eminence". Undoubtedly, had Adam continued as God made him he would have had a pre-eminence among men, for he was the beginning in a natural way, but the real moral beginning is Christ, and not only is He the beginning, but the first-born from among the dead, that in all things He might have the pre-eminence. The apostles, Peter and John, speaking to the people, told them that "God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ".

The first point I touch upon is the temple, for such a testimony could not go out if the temple of God were not here. It appears to me that the preaching depended on the temple. In Israel they had but the type and shadow; hence, there was not the gospel going out. It was more a fiery law. God's temple, although of God, was only in figure. Now we have got the reality of the temple, just as there was the reality of it in the presence of Christ Himself. The holy temple is composed of those who believe in Christ, and we get set forth in it the disposition of God toward man.

The Holy Spirit had descended where all were gathered together, not simply the apostles, in one place. The apostles did not exclusively receive the Spirit. It came upon the whole company, and the speaking with other tongues was general. "And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance". So that when the temple of God was really here God had a voice to every kind of people. There is a contrast to the confusion of tongues, after man proposed to build the tower of Babel. We find that overcome, in a sense, and that is

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one point connected especially with the presence of the Spirit.

But there is another point, and that is the exclusion of flesh; the Spirit sat upon each of them like cloven tongues of fire, and it was the Holy Spirit. This indicates to my mind that there was the exclusion of every working of the mind of man in regard of divine things. Man was excluded by the presence of the Spirit, and God had a voice to every nation and tongue under heaven. In the presence of the Spirit, of course, we get the oracles of God. The apostles, on their part, carried out the commission which the Lord had given them at the end of the gospel of Mark. They were to preach glad tidings. "He that believeth and is baptised shall be saved". They brought conviction home to the people, but made known that, spite of all that had taken place, the mind of God in regard to them was remission of sins; and that being baptised they would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. God had that mind toward Jerusalem, and in regard to the nations upon earth. Remission of sins was to be preached among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. Peter said, "the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call". I think the testimony which came out then is proof of the presence of the temple. I doubt if you would get the testimony if there were not the temple, God was dwelling here by the Spirit, and the oracles were here, and so we get the testimony of God coming out in the apostles -- and the disposition of God toward man was revealed. That holds good today. The truth is exactly what was preached in Acts 2. God is dwelling here by the Spirit. Jew and gentile are built together for an habitation of God, and consequent upon that the oracles of God are here. The truth of God is maintained in divine power, and the mind of God is exactly what it was in the second of Acts, that is, forgiveness of sins that men may receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. One may speak of forgiveness of sins in two lights, on one side as God's mind, and on the other, as in

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man's apprehension. The two are different. It is extremely important it should be in our apprehension. But man's apprehension is not commensurate with God's mind. In God's mind forgiveness of sins is toward all, and what is in God's mind is the subject of faith. We believe that which is God's mind, but to be good in us it must come into our apprehension, and our apprehension of everything is by the Spirit of God. The Spirit of God is not given consequent on your apprehension, but consequent on your faith in God's testimony, that is, of what is in His mind. Then you get the apprehension, or perhaps I might better say the appropriation to yourself of that which is in God's mind. That must be individually, by a witness, hence we have in Hebrews 10, "Whereof the Holy Spirit also is a witness", When we have the witness, then whatever is spoken of has become good in us. Forgiveness becomes good in us in the form of a conscience purged from dead works to serve the living God,

I have wandered a little from what I intended. The point is that the temple of God was there, and consequent on that, there was made known to the most guilty of men, in the most guilty of cities, what was God's disposition toward men. It was made known in Christ, for the preaching was in the name of the Lord Jesus. What do you think is the greatest witness of God's goodness towards men naturally? The sun in heaven! In spite of all the wickedness of man the sun shines. It is a kind of covenant on the part of God toward man. So Christ exalted in the virtue of redemption is the great witness and pledge of God's mind toward man down here. "That repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem". The testimony hangs upon the temple of God being here. As God presented Himself to men in the Person of Christ, so God is dwelling here now in the Spirit.

I want now to touch upon the witnesses. I refer to one point, that is, the witnesses did not receive the Holy Spirit exclusively. The Holy Spirit came upon the entire

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company of disciples. But there were gifts given to certain men, to the eleven, for the testimony of God, that they might be agents of God for the diffusion and scattering of the light which was there. If you read the chapter attentively you will be struck by one thing, and that is how little the witnesses said about themselves, All they said was, "Whereof we all are witnesses". They did not attempt to commend themselves. They had been witnesses of the death and resurrection of Christ, and so they could say, "whereof we all are witnesses". I think the witnesses that God sees fit to employ in His work are remarkable. If you go back for a moment to the prophets, the earliest prophets, as far as I know, were Amos and Hosea. They were contemporary. Amos may have been a little the earlier of the two. Who was Amos? He was not a prophet or a prophet's son. He was a herdsman and a gatherer of sycamore fruits. He was the man taken up of God to be a prophet in the midst of Israel. That was God's way. God passed by all the hierarchy, the priests and the levites. I go to a more striking case, that of the Lord Himself. We see the whole religious order among the Jews existing, there were the scribes and the doctors of the law, the high priests and the rulers of the temple, all those dignitaries, and yet, where was the word of God? In Joseph's son. God passed by them all, and the word of God was by the Spirit of God in Joseph's son. When we come to Acts 2 we get the same thing again. The system was existing. There were the priests and the rulers and the captains of the temple. They were all passed by and the word of God was with the Galilaean fishermen. And when they began to set forth the testimony of God they made nothing of themselves. They did not attempt to distinguish themselves. And yet their word was so wonderful that it could not be gainsaid. Now to come to our own time. When the word of God was to be recovered after it had been, by the unfaithfulness of man, completely obscured, how was this done? There was the whole hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church, did God use

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that? Was the word of God revived in the pope or the cardinals or the body of dignitaries of that church? Nothing of the kind. It was revived through the instrumentality of an obscure monk, who was deeply exercised in regard to divine things in his own soul. It is interesting to see the instruments that God deigns to employ to carry out His work. And it is as sure as possible that when man assumes to rule in divine things God will pass him by and will find other instruments to carry out His work. It was so in Israel, and so in the time of the Lord, and in the time of Luther, the work was carried on by simple instruments, and these instruments did nothing whatever to commend themselves. What commended them was the testimony they carried. They bore witness to what nobody could have known unless it had been revealed. Their witness was to the great truth that Christ was exalted to the right hand of God. They knew that by their own knowledge. They knew He had been crucified, and had risen again, but they reported His ascension by the witness of the Holy Spirit; no one knew of His being at the right hand of God but the Holy Spirit; the same holds good today. We talk lightly about it, but we know nothing of it save by the report of the Holy Spirit -- but the Holy Spirit maintains the truth of it, and so it could be said, "God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ". He is that on the ground of accomplished redemption, so that God's mind may be favourable, as it is at the present time, in regard of all men. The apostle John says, "he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world". It is a great point to understand that God has provided a mercy-seat, a point where His mind is favourable to all men -- that mercy-seat is Christ exalted, and we know of Christ exalted by the witness of the Holy Spirit sent down from heaven. All preaching at the present day must of necessity be by the Spirit. Witness which is worth anything is of the Spirit. The Spirit alone witnesses to the place in which God has set Christ. Well,

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the Spirit abides, and so one can talk about the place of Christ and witness that God "will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; who gave himself a ransom for all". We get the statement in words in the epistle to Timothy, but we have a living witness, the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit abides. It is the greatest privilege to apprehend that in spite of all the defection of man the temple of God abides. The oracles are here, and hence there can be a testimony of what the disposition of God is as declared in Christ, the mercy-seat. The idea of a mercy-seat is of a point where God puts Himself in communication with man. The communications that God made to Moses were from the mercy-seat, and so God has put Himself in communication with man in Christ. All is declared in Christ. Christ is the great preacher of peace, and His preaching here is in the power of the Spirit, to make known to man what is in God's mind toward man universally.

I have spoken of the temple of God as the first principle, and of the testimony as connected with that, also of the witnesses, the Galilaean fishermen, God passing by all the great among the Jews; now I want to say a word or two in regard to that which marked those that believed.

The first thing that came about was separation. You may depend upon it that in any order of things, in which man has come into authority instead of the Spirit of God, the first demand will be for separation. The Lord stood apart from all that existed when He was here, for man was in authority in the things of God, and so now, when man is in authority in the things of God, the first demand will be for separation. Baptism was at the outset the mark of separation. Believers come into a clean place, through baptism, like Noah left the ark for a purified earth.

Now as to the things in which they continued. The first was the apostles' doctrine; when you come into a place according to God undoubtedly you will find a

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standard and test of faith. The apostles' doctrine was the test of everything, and they could understand the doctrine. A great many people have an idea that you can only understand doctrine through ministers or clergy. It was not so at the beginning. These people understood the apostles' doctrine, or they could not have continued in it. The apostles were no clergy nor priests. They were simple men sent out with the testimony of God in the power of the Spirit. They were witnesses, and their doctrine was understood. People sometimes make difficulty about the understanding of Scripture. They make it to be a question of opinion. They say, 'You have your opinion and I have mine', But I know very well in my own mind there is such a thing as understanding the apostles' doctrine. The difficulties in understanding lie in people. Scripture is simple to simple people. "if any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself". You may depend upon it if man's mind were divested of prejudices and self-sufficiency and that kind of thing, if his eye were single, he would not find any difficulty in regard to the Scriptures. That is the first thing.

Then there is fellowship, which is bound to be founded on doctrine. If people have not right doctrine you cannot get such a thing as fellowship. The idea of fellowship is partnership, and partnership necessitates a bond. In business you could not have a partnership without certain articles of partnership, and they are the bond of partnership. When you come to divine things the bond of fellowship must of necessity be doctrine, and if there be not correct doctrine, it vitiates fellowship. If you ask what is the true bond of fellowship, I say it is the Lord, and you must have true and right doctrine in regard of the Lord before you can have any true fellowship.

Then we get two other things added. "Breaking of bread", the collective privilege of calling Christ to mind, and could there be anything more important than that? We have the breaking of bread still. The Lord was known

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to the disciples in the breaking of bread, and so too in regard to us. The Lord makes Himself manifest to us in the breaking of bread. And we have another thing, and that is prayers. In that they expressed their dependence on God. They were not sufficient for themselves, they were not self-contained, of necessity they were a people dependent on God. I bring these things forward because they give us pretty much the character of early christianity. No ecclesiastical system or church dignitaries. We too have doctrine. We have now the Scriptures, and can be as much apart from ecclesiastical order and organisation as they were. Fellowship abides, because the Spirit of God is still here, and true fellowship is the fellowship of the Spirit of God. It is the fellowship of the Lord, because the Lord is our common confession. It is a good thing to keep within the region of the Spirit, then you will get the true idea of fellowship. If we were in heaven we would not exactly want fellowship, heaven is a scene in which fellowship hardly applies. It is in a world of contrariety, where are heathen and Jews and false and evil professors, that we need to be bound together in the fellowship of the Spirit. The value of fellowship is mutual support. In a business partners are support to one another. We have too the breaking of bread. We do not want clergy, or ministers, or gift for that. The breaking of bread is that in which Christ is called to mind, and we have that privilege. And we do not want gift for prayer. Prayer is not a gift. It is the expression of dependence on God, and we are not debarred from that. Thus we can continue in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and prayers.

If we are simple, our whole body full of light, we shall find no great difficulty in following what was followed by those who were converted by the testimony of God at the beginning. You might say in that day they had all things common. That is true, but I doubt if there is spiritual power for it at the present time.

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RECONCILIATION

Colossians 1:19 - 23; Luke 7:40 - 43; Luke 10:30 - 37; Luke 15:11 - 32

I suppose that the great part of those to whom I am speaking have some interest in the communications of God in the Scriptures, and some acquaintance with them. I take that for granted in what I have to say. I want to bring before you now a subject of great interest and importance, and that is reconciliation, and to indicate the steps by which it is effectuated in us. Reconciliation has already been perfectly effected for God, looked at abstractly, but then reconciliation has to be made effectual in regard to us, and indeed in regard to all things. It is more the application of it, than the thing itself, that is, all things have to be brought into reconciliation, but reconciliation is there for them to be brought into, and we are now brought into it. It is a purpose which God has been pleased to make known to us. When the Lord Jesus was here all the fulness of the Godhead dwelt in Him, and there was a purpose connected with it, and that was "by him to reconcile all things unto himself". Reconciliation was to be effected by Him. There is another kindred passage, 2 Corinthians 5, "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them". I understand the passage to refer to that which was true when the Lord Jesus was here upon earth, We see in Luke 7 that God did not impute trespasses, for in Christ He was reconciling the world unto Himself. Now reconciliation has in a sense been effected in Christ, and whatever work was carried on by the apostles, and whatever work is carried on now, is in principle the continuation of that which began in Christ. In Hebrews 2 we are told that the great salvation began to be preached by the Lord and was confirmed unto us by them that heard Him; so too, reconciliation began in Christ, but the ministry of reconciliation was continued in the apostles,

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but specially in Paul. The apostle Paul speaks of himself in that way as one to whom the ministry of reconciliation had been entrusted. He says, "and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; to wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation". Then he goes on to say how he besought men to be reconciled unto God.

Now I want to give you an idea of what reconciliation means. Evidently reconciliation is for God; man comes into it, so does everything, for everything in the universe has been dislocated by sin. Sin has had its effect not only on things on earth but on things in heaven, so that things on earth and things in heaven have to be reconciled. Confusion and alienation have been brought in by lawlessness, and hence all things are to be reconciled. Reconciliation means this, that where distance was, there should be complacency. I do not think anything short of that gives the idea of reconciliation. We have an illustration of it in the case of the prodigal. There had been distance, but there was complacency. He had on the best robe and the ring and the shoes and it is the father who says, "It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad". "Make merry and be glad", are the marks of complacency, but the point is it was where there had been distance, and I have no doubt that is the principle of reconciliation. It will go on to all things. Wherever there has been moral distance there will be complacency.

Now Christ is the One in whom all this is accomplished. All was dependent on the Son of God becoming man, hence we read, "that God was in Christ". The thought and purpose of God was that everything was to be taken up in Christ, and hence everything was regarded as on a different footing the moment Christ came in. God was presenting Himself in an entirely different attitude in regard to man. "Reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses". The secret was that the point of reconciliation was there, Christ was regarded from

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heaven as the point of complacency. You see that over and over again in the gospels: at His birth, at His baptism, on the mount of transfiguration, again in John 12. He was God's beloved Son in whom God was well pleased, He was the point of complacency. Hence He was the reconciliation. But then there was another thing, and that was by redemption to remove the distance caused by sin, so that there should be both the distance removed, and a point of reconciliation. That is what has now come to pass, and reconciliation entirely depends upon everything being brought into subjection to Christ; what subsists in Christ is divine complacency in man, the distance removed in the work which Christ accomplished. The prodigal was in a far country, in the place of distance. Christ entered into the distance, but He entered into it according to the righteousness of God to remove it. He was forsaken of God, had real experience of the distance such as no other ever will have; but we read, He "was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father". All things are to be reconciled by being brought into accord with Christ. That is the divine thought, and it is that which Christ will most surely effect, as He has the power to subdue all things unto Himself. Many are now brought, and many will yet be brought into accord with Christ. Israel and the nations will in a sense be subject. God's Spirit will be poured out on all flesh, all will be brought into accord with Christ, and in that way all things reconciled. Whether you understand me, or not, I have stated what is of immense importance, that in spite of all that we see in the world, confusion and moral evil, God is carrying out His blessed purpose, and in spite of what men may think or believe the point of reconciliation is there, and, for God, the distance and alienation have been removed in the death of Christ. It is said, "he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him". Everything has to be reconciled in Him. There is terrific self-assertion at the present time on the part of man, but

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behind and above all that, God is accomplishing His purpose in Christ, and after all man is only a poor dying being. The beggar and the prince, the rich and the poor, come to one common end. They are gathered together, the grave swallows them all, so wherein is man to be accounted of?

Now I will indicate the way by which reconciliation is reached in regard to us. I do not need to speak about "all things", because all things, except as a matter of interest, do not concern us immediately. I think you will see it in the three parables I read. They are a group of parables quite peculiar to the gospel of Luke. You will not find any one of them in any other gospel. They accord with the spirit and character of that particular gospel. In that gospel you get the great idea that "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them". The first point in it is the attitude of God toward all men. I believe that to be a matter of the last importance. It is brought out in the parable in Luke 7, "There was a certain creditor which had two debtors: the one owed five hundred pence, and the other fifty. And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both". There are certain things on the part of God which are provisional, and it is by these things man is being tested. When God brings final things to pass testing will all be over. And the attitude of God in regard to the world is in a sense provisional. God is giving opportunity, and the mind of God toward man universally is forgiveness of sins. When the Lord Jesus was here God was not imputing trespasses. The Lord said to a woman, when she was manifestly sinful, "neither do I condemn thee".

Now the ministry of the apostles was a continuation of that, or rather an advance upon it. They made known to men that forgiveness of sins was in the mind of God, in regard to all men. That is what marks this moment, and is really made known to us in the parable in Luke 7. "When they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them

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both". Many may be indifferent to the mind of God, blind in regard to it, and they do not get the good of it, just as a blind man does not get the light of the sun, but none the less the mind of God at the present moment in regard of all men is forgiveness of sins. I admit it to be provisional, not final, men are being tested by the truth at the present moment. The question is, will men accept Christ as Head? If they do, they get forgiveness of sins. The first principle of reconciliation is that the attitude of God toward man without distinction is forgiveness of sins. The glad tidings are preached to every creature under heaven, the glad tidings are of a risen Christ, in whose name is preached repentance and forgiveness of sins. That is where faith comes in on the part of man.

What I mean is, that man's faith apprehends the attitude of God made known in testimony. It is set forth in the power of the Holy Spirit, and the faith of man apprehends it, and the history of a soul with God begins when that soul apprehends the attitude of God. Men do not know it naturally, that is certain, they think of God in some different way.

I pass on to the next step, supposing that the attitude of God is apprehended. It comes out in the second parable; and it is a step on our part, that is, it is a question of our appreciation. The point is, that the testimony of God's grace has reached us in Christ. Now, God could not have Christ to be ignored, for it is He who has become Man, to accomplish redemption, and hence of necessity Christ must be the foremost of men. He is man's Neighbour. That is, the one who has mercy; Christ is not simply Neighbour to them that believe, but to every man, very near to every man. That Samaritan brought himself near to the man that fell among thieves. He came where the man was, and so Christ has brought Himself in testimony very near. If there be a preacher, the person speaking is not the preacher, Christ is the Preacher. He came preaching. Whatever preaching there is, that is worth anything, is really preaching by the Spirit of Christ. The

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vessel is nothing. What is the preacher worth? He is simply the vessel of the Spirit, it is Christ who is speaking. The Lord Jesus said: "The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God". I bring that forward to prove to you how very near Christ brings Himself at the present time; the second step in reconciliation is the appreciation of Christ. Now, you will remember what the Samaritan did to the man that fell among thieves. There were three things; he bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, then he set him on his own beast, and he took care of him. Now, to give you an idea of what I suppose is intended to be conveyed, I will take up the case of the apostle Paul. There came a moment in the history of Saul when he was very sorely wounded. There had been a time when Saul thought himself a very sound man. He was orthodox to a degree, more zealous than his contemporaries for the traditions of the fathers. He would have given himself credit for rigidity. But a moment came when he was sorely wounded in his self-esteem. He found that his orthodoxy would not do, that Christ was in heaven, and himself an object of mercy. "Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?" That was an expression of mercy, and Saul saw his own heart as he had not seen it before. The Lord healed him, not by patching up his wounds, but in a very efficacious way, by communicating to him of His Spirit. Christ is the great Physician. He came not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance. He pours in oil and wine, the gift of the Spirit. Then another thing, "he ... set him on his own beast". Paul had experience of that. He had buffetings and hunger and thirst, and sometimes things abounding, and sometimes necessity, but be says, 'I can do all things through Christ who gives me power'. He would not confess to necessity. He says, 'I can do all things', he was upheld by the power of Christ; and at the end of his course he said, "The Lord stood with me, and strengthened me", and "the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly

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kingdom". I think the apostle had the satisfaction of knowing, not simply that Christ had bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, not simply that he was carried along by the power of Christ, but that the Lord took care of him, that He would deliver him from every evil work, would not commit him to the power of his enemies, but would preserve him to His heavenly kingdom. You can understand what kind of appreciation the apostle had of Christ. He recognised the mercy of Christ, so we find Jude speaking of "the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ". What was seen in regard to Paul was mercy, the mercy of the Lord. He had mercy on Paul from beginning to end. Christ was Neighbour to him, and his one thought in regard of Christ was that he might have Him for gain. He was prepared to be divested of anything that might give him self-distinction -- that he might have Christ for gain. That indicates his appreciation of Christ, and then Paul acted like Christ. He went about ministering mercy. He was not always well treated, even at the hands of those who professed to be christians. In spite of that, he knew that Christ was his Neighbour, and had shown him mercy, and took care of him, so he followed the injunction of the Lord Jesus to the lawyer, "Go and do thou likewise". That is the second step. The way in which I would desire to help you is in the appreciation of Christ as neighbour. He is at your service until He has you with Himself. You do not need to complain of weakness here. You might be able to say with the apostle, "the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work". I think that might be echoed in many a heart.

Now I come to the third step, and that is seen in the parable in Luke 15 -- that is the climax, for we have arrived at a point where the father has complacency in the prodigal -- not simply has the prodigal come back to the father, but he is there in such a way as to command the complacency of the father. Reconciliation has in view, not simply that man shall be brought back to God, in appreciation of Christ, but that he shall be set before God in

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such a fashion as that there might be entire complacency in him. If there were a spot in a man which would not satisfy the eye of God complacency could hardly be there, and in order that it might be in us we have to be according to Christ. That is the idea of reconciliation -- that He might "present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight", that our state may be according to God, so that the eye of God may detect nothing unsuitable to Himself. Now if you have appreciation of Christ so as to maintain all that is of Him, your soul will find itself in the atmosphere where Christ abides. Do you remember the two disciples of John asked the Lord, "where dwellest thou?" The Lord said to them, "Come and see", and they abode with Him that day. They never left Him after that -- and I think the Lord would say the same to us. Have you ever raised the question in regard to Christ, "where dwellest thou?" If you appreciated Christ, you would raise that question, because you would desire to be where Christ is. If any one appreciated me they would like to follow me to where I abide. Where do you think Christ abides? I doubt if you will give me the right answer. Some would say in heaven. That is not the answer I would give. It is clear to me that He abides in the love of God, and that is the place where Christ would invite you to abide. If you say, "where dwellest thou?" He will say, "Come and see", and when you come and see, you will find yourself in the love of God, and if you find yourself in the love of God, the effect will be that holiness will be promoted. Holiness is not by faith but by love. Nothing will promote holiness but the love of God. If you appreciate the One in whom the grace of God has come to you, you will be drawn into the love of God, and the effect will be advance in holiness. I will quote a verse to you which will confirm this. "The love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit which is given unto us". In that way we are formed by the Spirit of God according to God, so that we may be before God "holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight". The

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prodigal when he was brought back was divested of his rags, and the servants were to clothe him in the best robe, the ring and the shoes, the clothing was to characterise him, so to speak, just as Christ characterises us when we put Him on, and then reconciliation is complete. We are suitable to the eye of the father. That is what God has in view.

I trust you have followed me in these steps. I do not think they are difficult to follow. The order in which the parables are put in Luke is an evidence of the divine character of the word of God. You could not alter the order without spoiling all. The attitude of God toward man must be the first thing, the appreciation of Christ the next, and to be suitable to God, for divine complacency, must be the climax. If you are suitable to God, God will have you in His own habitation. Christ not only brings us to where He dwells, but He makes us conscious of the Father's love, and if the Father loves us He will have us in due season in His own habitation. Why do people go to heaven? Because God loves them. Why did Israel go into the land of promise? Because God loved them. God will satisfy His love. "God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) and hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus". Christ's desire is that where He is there we may be also. I do not suppose that we often apprehend things in the order in which they are presented in Scripture, but I think God would have us apprehend them in divine order. I do not much mind how a person is converted, so long as the person is converted, but the time will come in our history when things have to be put in divine order in our souls. The more you have things in divine order the more capable you are of using those things for the benefit of others; and therefore the order in which things are presented in Scripture is of the greatest moment, because it is of the Spirit of God; hence

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the order of the three parables which I have just brought before you. The great thing is the appreciation of Christ. It is a wonderful thought that He is man's neighbour, neighbour to the man who is needy, and He proves that He is neighbour in showing mercy. God is rich in mercy, and Christ has come close to man to be neighbour to him who is needy, and it is of all importance that we should appreciate the neighbour. He has come close to us in the mercy of God. As you sit there, and as I stand here, we are being taken care of by Christ. He will never fail to do it till the moment arrives when we shall need no longer care, and then He comes to take us to Himself, that where He is there we may be also.

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READINGS ON 1 CORINTHIANS (3)

1 Corinthians 15:42 - 58

F.E.R. We must keep before us the light in which we have been looking at this epistle, that is, the working out of the thought of Christ as the wisdom and power of God. That line is traceable through the epistle. We have had two points of great moment; that is, the temple of God, and of necessity, the oracles of God. The value to us of the temple of God is derived from the oracles of God being there. Then there is the anointed vessel so that the oracles are brought into contact with men. The oracles would be of no avail if not brought into such contact. The anointed vessel is analogous to what was true in Christ Himself, He was the anointed Man to preach the gospel. Now we get another point of great interest, in which is more the thought of the power of God. Christ is not only the wisdom of God but the power of God. The apostle says, "we preach Christ crucified, ... Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God". Well, I take it that He is the power of God, so that everything may be put on resurrection ground and death be dispossessed. You get in this chapter, "The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam ... a quickening spirit". Then, afterwards, "The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven", and what the chapter goes on to is not the rapture, which is not introduced here, but victory over death. Certain things have to come to pass, the dead raised and the living changed, and then will be fulfilled the saying which is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. This is a quotation from the prophet Isaiah.

J.P. So in that way the book is quite complete.

F.E.R. Yes, it gives us a good deal of instruction as to what God's Son is to establish here.

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O.O'B. Do you connect the life-giving Spirit with John 20 and Romans 8?

F.E.R. Yes.

W.M. I suppose in this chapter it is carried on to the body?

F.E.R. I think that quickening always involves the body, because man has no vehicle without a body. We get the spirits of just men made perfect. But a man is not such without a body.

W.M. "You hath he quickened", in Ephesians, is anticipative.

F.E.R. Evidently, because it also says, He has "raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places". Evidently that is anticipative.

J.S.A. That is going beyond resurrection. Resurrection itself does not take off the earth, does it?

F.E.R. I think not. So you do not find, as in Thessalonians, the rapture; that is not the point. The point is the dispossession of death. The last enemy, that is death, shall be destroyed, and at the close of the chapter it adds, "O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?"

G.R. It is necessary to have that in the very place where death was in power.

F.E.R. And that is where Christ comes in as the power of God, to put everything on the ground of resurrection, where death is dispossessed.

W.M. Why do you think resurrection sets forth the power of God?

F.E.R. The apostle says, "What is the exceeding greatness of his power ... which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead". It is appealed to as being the great exercise of divine power.

W.M. It is great morally.

F.E.R. Everything in Scripture is moral.

Ques. Does Philippians 3:21 refer to that power?

F.E.R. It refers to Christ's quickening power, no doubt. Though quickening is not exactly the same thought as resurrection.

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G.R. Is not death looked at as a power of the enemy?

F.E.R. It is looked at as being an enemy to us. At the end of the chapter the question is raised, "O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?" So, too, in Romans, "That as sin hath reigned unto death".

Ques. What distinction do you make between resurrection and quickening?

F.E.R. I think quickening has its application to those who are living here when the Lord comes. Resurrection more to those who have died.

W.M. So that verse in Romans refers to living saints, "if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you".

F.E.R. Exactly. It is the quickening of your mortal bodies. We all have mortal bodies. It looks at us as here.

J.S.A. The idea of 'mortal' is not a body that is dead but a body that is liable to death.

F.E.R. So, too, the distinction is made here, "We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed".

W.M. If we had only this epistle we would not know that we left the earth at all. It is all resurrection.

F.E.R. That is intelligible, because the point of the epistle is to set forth what is involved in Christ as the wisdom of God and the power of God. That is, how God has taken in hand to bring to nought all that existed here and to establish that which is of Himself.

J.P. So the epistle is complete.

F.E.R. Yes, and really every epistle is complete in a way. In order to make up the completeness of truth we must take in all, but there is a kind of completeness in each; the detail of each follows on the particular light in which Christ is presented, and every epistle has its own completeness; and yet all are needed to give you the completeness of Christ.

W.M. I suppose in that way Hebrews proceeds on the lines of the Apostle and High Priest, and completes that.

F.E.R. Quite so. We see the way in which God has been working in order to put things on the ground of

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resurrection so that death might be completely dispossessed in its power. We see the triumph, the glory of God there.

J.S.A. The idea of the resurrection of the dead is not so much a question of raising of bodies as of setting up a man on the earth in a condition beyond the power of death.

F.E.R. I think so.

W.M. It is the resurrection of persons.

F.E.R. Resurrection of the dead; but the point to my mind is the way in which it is brought about. All depended on a Man, a Man who could not be holden of death, but who could enter into it, although for others; to accomplish redemption and discharge every liability under which man was.

J.S.A. Having done that He has the keys of death and hades.

F.E.R. That is the last Adam. He subsists in His own personal perfection as the righteous One, but in the power of redemption. That is, He has redemption rights, for He is God. Death is completely in result dispossessed.

W.M. God would be the only One who had a right to redeem.

F.E.R. Exactly, because God alone had title to the inheritance, and evidently the one who has title to the inheritance is the one to redeem. I could not redeem another man's inheritance if he had mortgages on it, I mean not so as to have any claim of myself; I would not have redemption rights. They were particular about that in Israel.

J.P. So even in the case of Boaz, his was not the first right. There was one who had a right preceding his, but he had a right.

F.E.R. And the other gave up his right.

W.M. Had God's right come in because of His being Creator?

F.E.R. That seems the way in which things are presented in Revelation 4 and 5. In Revelation 4 all is

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taken up on the ground of creation right and in Revelation 5 on the ground of redemption. You get the same thing in Colossians 1 in connection with the headship of Christ.

W.M. The mortgage has, so to speak, come in since the creation and has been taken up by Christ the Head.

F.E.R. Exactly. God has never given up His creation rights. God has right to man. All were created by Christ; that comes out in Revelation 4. All were created too for the pleasure of God, but then that would not be good for man while man is under liabilities. But God takes up the liabilities by Christ, using His right of redemption. And so men are brought into blessing on the ground of resurrection, and death is dispossessed.

W.M. As all is taken up on the ground of resurrection, the liabilities can never come in again. They have been discharged.

F.E.R. Exactly.

J.B. What are the liabilities?

F.E.R. I think the curse and death. 'Death and the curse were in our cup'. They were the ingredients in man's cup. Christ took them up.

W.M. And the judgment of God lay upon man.

F.E.R. Yes, Christ was made a curse for man, was under the ban of God.

W.M. And I suppose in Christ on the cross is the expression of God's abhorrence of sin.

F.E.R. That was the demonstration of where man was in the eye of God. Christ was really in that sense in man's place. It was not His own place. He took it vicariously, and came under all that that place entailed.

W.M. He really died for the sins of the whole world.

F.E.R. He is the propitiation for the whole world. He died for all so that He might take up the position of the last Adam, the Sun of righteousness, and put everything on resurrection ground. That was the end in view; I have no doubt that the thought and purpose of God was that that which had come in by sin, death, should be

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dispossessed, that there should be a moral universe in which sin and death should no longer reign. "That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life". That must of necessity be on the footing of resurrection. God will place everything on that footing. That is why this chapter comes in as glad tidings. The main point insisted on in this chapter is the reality of the resurrection, beginning with the resurrection of Christ. We have already come on to resurrection ground. The apostle says to the Colossians, "ye are risen with him", so that death should have no power with regard to us. Then as to the Old Testament saints, it says, "are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection". Israel too is revived. The figure is given us in Ezekiel of dry bones, where apparently there is no hope of life, but they are revived. Daniel takes up the same thing, "many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake". There will thus be a revival of Israel, "some to everlasting life", then in regard to the gentiles, Israel's revival is spoken of in Romans 11, as for them "life from the dead". Every circle and every part of the system is put on resurrection ground.

J.S.A. It is comparatively easy to see it in connection with Israel and the literal resurrection by and by, but it is more difficult to understand its bearing on us at the present time. I suppose the thing is that we are come to it in mind and spirit.

F.E.R. It says we are risen together with Christ by faith of the operation of God that raised Him from the dead.

O.O'B. I wish you would make that a little plainer in connection with eternal life, being come on to that ground now.

F.E.R. Well, what system do you belong to? Do you belong to the Christ system or the world system?

O.O'B. To Christ's system.

F.E.R. Then you are risen with Him, else you could not be in that system. There must be some sense in

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which you are risen with Him. The truth is this, in mind and spirit I have parted from the world system, have gone down to Jordan; I am circumcised in Him. On the other hand, in mind and spirit, I am associated with Christ in that system of which He is Head, and if that be the case, I am risen together with Him. It works out in this way, that every interest I have belongs to that system of which Christ is the Head. The politics and the business of this world concern me little. I care only to go through it. You may think this selfish, but I do not mind about that. My business is to go through it as a stranger and a pilgrim. My interests lie in that system which is centred in Christ.

G.R. And that is quite compatible with the word, "do good unto all men".

F.E.R. Yes, but I do it as identified with Christ in that system.

G.R. I was thinking of that word in John, "Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life". That is, there is to be the acceptance of death because it is impossible to reach resurrection except through death.

F.E.R. Or the appropriation of it, "he that eateth". So in Colossians both death and resurrection are connected with baptism, "the putting off of the body of the flesh, in the circumcision of the Christ; buried with him in baptism". If I have gone down into burial, it is clear that I have parted company with this world; but this brings in another thought in Colossians which is extremely important, "wherein also" (that is, in baptism)"ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead". In our case it is of course in mind and spirit. We are in accord with what has come to pass actually in Christ.

Ques. Is that where you reach eternal life, in resurrection?

F.E.R. It must be on that ground. God could never bring eternal life into the system of this world. Everything here is dominated by death. Eternal life must

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belong to a system of which Christ is the beginning and Head. So the Lord Jesus speaks, "in the coming age everlasting life". The coming age is Messiah's age.

W.M. When the scripture says, "through the faith of the operation of God", would not that involve the great system?

F.E.R. Yes, it means the bringing out of the wreck and ruin here another universe. You get the same principle in Ephesians. God comes in to operate in life-giving power in a scene of moral death, raising Christ from the dead and setting Him far above all principality and power.

J.B-n. Would you say that the Jew in the millennium was risen with Christ?

F.E.R. He is on the ground of resurrection, but risen with Christ applies to us now. The Jew is raised nationally.

J.S.A. And would you say the operation of the mighty power of God in Ephesians involves the truth, all that is connected with Christ?

F.E.R. Yes, for it is not only that He has raised Him, but has set Him at His own right hand and put all things under his feet, and gave Him to be "head over all things".

W.M. So it really involves the conception of the great sphere of which Christ is Head.

F.E.R. Exactly. The whole sphere that is under the Son of man as in Psalm 8.

G.W.H. Then it is in that sphere we have our part.

F.E.R. Exactly. We are brought into association now with Christ, and the point in regard to us is that every interest we have belongs to the system and order of things centring in Christ.

G.W.H. And in view of that we are enjoined to set our minds on things above.

F.E.R. The ground of the admonition in Colossians 3 is, "If ye then be risen with Christ", everything is to come out from the right hand of God. For Daniel, the point of interest was Jerusalem, because Jerusalem was the centre on earth, but now the point of interest to the

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christian is not Jerusalem but the right hand of God. "Seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God". If you have your window open, let it be toward the right hand of God.

O.O'B. My only difficulty about it was calling what you were speaking of in connection with "risen with Christ" eternal life.

F.E.R. I understand eternal life to consist in three things: the first is rule, the second is atmosphere, and the third is light. I ask you where do all these things belong to? Do they belong to the Christ sphere or to this world?

O.O'B. Surely, they belong to the Christ sphere.

F.E.R. Then eternal life belongs to the Christ sphere, where all is on the ground of resurrection. It is only in Christ risen that you get rule really. This verse will explain it, ye are "married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God". You are married that you may come under rule. You get rule on the ground of resurrection, and you get atmosphere on the ground of resurrection, for the church is set up here undoubtedly on that ground. The Holy Spirit being here and the church as the family of God, is all on resurrection ground and in Christ risen you get full divine light. So there are rule, atmosphere, and light, all on the ground of resurrection.

J.B. What is atmosphere?

F.E.R. In a moral point of view it is the love of Christ in the christian circle.

Ques. Would you say, "and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son" is atmosphere?

F.E.R. No, that is rule, and you never come into atmosphere until you come under rule. The moment a child is born it comes under rule, under the influence of laws which God has established in creation and into an atmosphere, and so, too, into light. Rule, atmosphere, and light are all there, and the moment an infant has an independent existence it comes into all these.

W.M. And these are the conditions of life.

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F.E.R. And the same holds good in regard of eternal life. When you get a person born of God he has, so to speak, a body, a substantive existence, and lungs and eyes, then he comes into conditions which God has appointed for us to live in; but all these conditions are on the footing of resurrection.

J.P. So that the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus. Everything is now in Christ Jesus, is it not? and Christ Jesus is the risen One.

F.E.R. Yes, and in the last part of this chapter the last Adam and the second Man stands officially in relation to a universe, the Head and beginning of it.

E.A. You referred to Ephesians 2 just now, I would like to ask whether there is not any present application to the words, "made us sit down together in the heavenlies".

F.E.R. Most unquestionably. We were saying it was anticipative. It describes what will really take place in the coming of the Lord, but God has given present effect to it.

J.P. I have thought we could not understand what is set forth in Ephesians unless we recognised that it is anticipative.

F.E.R. I do not think we can, God has given a present effect morally to what will take place actually at the coming of the Lord.

J.S.A. Does not that come about in the knowledge and appreciation of Christ in the place where He is?

F.E.R. I would hardly say so, I think it lies in the appreciation of the love and the grace of God. God who is rich in mercy, for His great love wherewith He loved us -- as we enter into that we begin to realise, by the Spirit of God the place in which God has set us according to His counsel. In that way it becomes good to us as a present thing.

J.P. We grow by the true knowledge of God.

F.E.R. That is the principle. Even in natural things a child gradually grows up in its father's affections, and as the child develops in intelligence the father is well pleased

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to make known to it all that is in his own mind. The father does not care to have secrets from the child he loves.

G.R. Would you say all that is in the mind of God is set forth in Christ for our apprehension now?

F.E.R. There is another point, that is we are joined to Christ, "he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit". We are quickened together with Christ.

G.W.H. Referring to the conditions you mentioned, would you say that one who is brought into attachment is brought under rule?

F.E.R. Yes, that is the object of being brought into attachment; until then man is lawless.

E.A. What other word could you use instead of attachment.

F.E.R. Anybody at all conversant with astronomy would know the word. It is rather difficult to find another suitable; 'bond' might serve, but that might be almost as difficult. The fact is that in common language 'attachment' has got a conventional meaning of affection. It really means a state in which things are bound to one another. It is an expression in regard to the solar system. The opposite, 'lawlessness', is also a word used in astronomy. Everything not in attachment is lawless.

J.B. Is there any distinction between rule and order?

F.E.R. They are very much the same thing.

W.M. And the first condition of life is to be attached.

F.E.R. Yes, so physical life depends on rule. We would not live a moment if we were not under rule, we should fly off into destruction. It is a necessary condition of existence.

W.M. Then after attachment you find a place in which to breathe.

F.E.R. As we are creatures with lungs; a body like the earth is not intelligent and has no lungs.

W.M. And this is supplied by love in the brethren.

F.E.R. The christian circle. This is brought out in 1 John 3, "We know that we have passed from death unto

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life, because we love the brethren". "We ought to lay down our lives for the brethren".

J.P. On the other side, he that loveth not his brother abides in death.

F.E.R. The truth is, that the circle of the brethren is so pervaded by the love of Christ that it is the circle of love. That is the great importance of being in the circle of the saints. I would not like to be out of it at all.

W.M. You mean all the saints of God.

F.E.R. Yes, in the largest sense, only we have to carry out the proof of it in the circumstances in which we find ourselves.

G.W.H. I suppose that is why in Ephesians 3 we get, "May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; and to know the love of Christ which passeth knowledge".

F.E.R. Quite so, you get the extent of the universe of bliss, but then another thing, and that is, "to know the love of Christ", that is what fills that universe.

W.M. And then you would be in the light of the love of God?

F.E.R. Yes, that is brought out in 1 John 4, it is the love of God in the revelation and application of it to us in our responsible pathway from the time we were sinners to the day of judgment; that is the light in which we are.

W.M. You mean the love of God gives confidence all along the line.

F.E.R. Yes, "Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world".

G.W.H. Does attachment cover those three conditions?

F.E.R. They are consequent on attachment. You cannot have one of them until you are attached, you do not come under rule until then.

G.W.H. They follow of necessity.

F.E.R. Yes, but it is extremely difficult in the present order of christendom to get an idea of the christian circle, for the great part of the christians in the world at the

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present time is entangled in the great churches. You do not get the christian circle there. They hardly know one another as christians. There may be a select coterie in some evangelical congregations, but that is all. You can in that hardly get an idea of what one may call the christian circle.

G.W.H. That is all the effect of the rights of God in mercy.

F.E.R. Exactly. They have been set forth in redemption, and in consequence of that, Christ has become the point of attachment. You have Him as the centre of a system. Men could not be attached to God, but God has established in Christ a point of attachment on the ground of redemption, and in being brought into attachment by the Spirit of God we come at once under rule. The anointing is what brings you into attachment. The Spirit is the bond between us and Christ, and consequent on that we are brought into the christian circle and there we get the light of the Spirit of God. That is the way it works.

Ques. Would you say that Adam was in attachment before he fell?

F.E.R. He had a peculiar place. He was the centre of a system, a figure of the One to come. As the image and glory of God, he was the centre of a system, only he broke down immediately. There he was not fit to be head to anybody else. You get the contrast here, "The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam a quickening spirit".

W.M. So that if Adam had never broken down there would have been but one man before God in the world?

F.E.R. But he would have been head and would have had posterity, I suppose.

H.M. As to a man in these large churches who is a christian indeed, what atmosphere would you say be was in?

F.E.R. I know the great difficulty of realising the christian circle so long as you are entangled in these things. One had to come out, to get an idea of the circle.

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W.M. It would be a struggle for breath all the time.

Rem. It would be a social circle.

F.E.R. But that would be only in a certain grade of society. You do not understand very much when you are entangled in these things, of the thought that there is neither Jew nor gentile, male nor female. The fact is we have come out of these things in the hope of realising something of the christian circle. I hope we do, for if not I do not see what compensation we have. It is a great thing to have come into attachment to Christ, but we want more than that, the reality of the christian circle down here.

Ques. Is the christian circle the circle of the Spirit of God, and it is for us to get into that?

F.E.R. Yes, a circle down here pervaded by the affections of Christ, "Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren". The Lord presses continually upon the disciples, that they should love one another.

J.B. Would you say that the light is the love of God and the atmosphere the love of Christ?

F.E.R. Yes.

W.M. Is not love presented in John as a kind of atmosphere? "He that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God".

F.E.R. I only take it up from the passage, "We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren". It is evident to me that with the brethren there is the atmosphere of love.

G.W.H. I suppose it is by the Spirit the Lord conducts our hearts into the love of God.

F.E.R. But that is very much more a question of light. Where it is a question of Christ, there is a circle down here which is pervaded by the affection of Christ. It is the reproduction of Christ down here. That is what the Lord contemplated in John 15.

G.W.H. Your thought is not that we should be in that circle only on Lord's day.

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F.E.R. No, always.

Ques. Is that the thought in John 14, "At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you"?

F.E.R. Yes.

W.M. Why do you speak of the love of God as light?

F.E.R. Because it comes to us in that way.

J.P. That expression seems to involve it, "We have known and believed the love".

F.E.R. Then there is another expression, "Keep yourselves in the love of God".

W.M. Would you not think that love was a more positive thing than light?

F.E.R. But you must remember that it is the love of God. You cannot take that up in the way you take up the love of the brethren. Brotherly love in Scripture is distinguished from love.

W.M. Hence Scripture says, "he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom be hath not seen?"

F.E.R. I think brotherly love is the atmosphere, but the love of God is more the light in which we are.

J.P. It is evident in 1 John 3, that hatred is death, and love is life.

G.W.H. You connect light with God's nature.

F.E.R. Yes, but what is light to us? Light to us is the revelation of God in His nature.

W.M. When it says, "God is light", the statement is modified somewhat.

F.E.R. It is in contrast to darkness. Love is absolute.

W.M. So the saints can be said to be light in the Lord, but not love.

F.E.R. Yes. You are said to be light in the Lord, but not love. You see, love is an effect produced in us. It is not an effect in God. What I mean is, God is love, every quality in God, holiness, righteousness, judgment, everything has its spring and source in love. With us it is an effect, "We love him because he first loved us".

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G.R. How do you make out that judgment flows from the love of God?

F.E.R. Because it never could be according to holy love to tolerate lawlessness, and therefore for the good of the universe God abolishes lawlessness. It is not arbitrary. How lawlessness came in I do not know, but it is not consistent with holy love to tolerate lawlessness.

H.M. In chastising the saint, is that the end?

F.E.R. Where lawlessness is allowed God comes in to put it away.

J.B. The cross would be the proof of that.

F.E.R. It is a great thing to apprehend what Scripture says, that God is love, and there is nothing in God contrary to love. We have had before us, that Christ risen is the pledge of everything being put on resurrection ground, where death can have no power or authority. Everything is in the last Adam. He is the beginning and centre and pledge of everything being put on ground which cannot be invaded by death. Then what a display will come out! The heavenly city and the whole heavenly company, Israel revived, and the nations all brought into view. What a triumph on the part of God to bring all that to pass out of the wreck and ruin of this world! He brings it all to pass in a day.

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THE DISCIPLINE OF GOD AND HIS COMMUNICATIONS

Hebrews 12:1 - 29

There is a connection of thought all through this chapter. The first part is taken up with discipline. The Hebrews were, I suppose, suffering under persecution, and God was using it in the way of discipline. Many things that happen to us down here in circumstances are discipline on the part of God. These things are trying to us. They were so to the Hebrews, involving the spoiling of their goods. In those days people did not gain by christianity in this world; they lost continually. The spoiling of our goods would not be a pleasing experience to any of us, but the apostle presented it to them as discipline on the part of God, and the end of discipline is that we might be partakers of His holiness, and yet that is not quite the end, for there is another point, that we may get the gain of His communications. God brings us into circumstances in which the springs that work in us are brought to light. We become aware of things in us of which we had not much idea previously. The process through which we go may be painful, but the result is good, it leads to self-judgment, and in that way we become partakers of God's holiness, and that is by entering into His love. If we enter into the life of God, that is all good, but we have the painful lesson to lean, that is, there is no spring of good in us. All our springs are polluted and contaminated. We have to learn, "that in me (that is, in my flesh), dwelleth no good thing". All goodness is of God, and as we learn that it assists us in our education; we become partakers of God's holiness. A family is never well brought up if there is no discipline. If children are independent and take their own course, it will be prejudicial to them in the long run. We bring our children under discipline because there are certain

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tendencies in them which in after-life might hinder them a good deal. You want to show them the distinction between right and wrong, and where the springs of right and wrong are, so that they may discern between the two, and choose the good and refuse the evil. And if that be so with us, how much more so with God. He brings us under the influence of His love to promote holiness in us, and He assists it with discipline. You get a striking instance of it in Job. He was brought under discipline, and the result was that, seeing God, Job loathed himself. He learned the rebellious springs that existed in him; that he had put himself on a level with God to argue with Him, and he came to abhor himself. So does any one of us when we see the terrific presumption and rebelliousness which lies in the heart against God. We repent in dust and ashes. Job learned, too, the end of the Lord, that He is very pitiful and of tender mercy, and, in result, he got twice as much as he had before. If we answer to the discipline of God we get divine communications. Discipline is intended to pave the way for communications, and the communications of God are the greatest riches which God can confer upon us. I can conceive of nothing to compare with them in point of value. They are far better than diamonds or gold, or any thing that man can conceive of. There is nothing to be compared with them. See what gracious work it is on the part of God to put us under discipline to prepare us for His riches.

There is a warning at the close of the chapter, which I can understand in the case of the Hebrews, and that was lest they should turn away from Him that spake. There is always a danger of apostasy if we are not kept of God, and the apostle warns them of it here, "See that ye refuse not him that speaketh". There is a tendency in the human heart to turn away from God, and the way by which we are kept is by the power of God, through faith, unto salvation, ready to be revealed in the last time.

There are two things against which we are warned; the one is, despising the chastening of the Lord, and the

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other, refusing the Speaker. It should be an exercise with us that we get communications from God. God has His own way of bringing communications home to us. There are no fresh revelations, but yet God knows how to bring communications to us. Now, one word as to the communications. God's communications all have reference to a risen Christ. When God spoke to Israel He spoke to man on man's level; that is, of man's responsibility and of what was connected with that. At the present time God does not speak on that level. He speaks from heaven, and when He speaks from heaven He speaks of His own things; that is, the things which He has in His purpose to establish in Christ. Any one can appreciate the difference between the two. Everything which God purposes to establish is centred in a risen Christ, who is the Head and centre of the whole divine system of purpose, just as the solar system, with which we are acquainted, is centred in the sun. I want to point that out in a few details, and you might, in that connection, turn again to verses 18 - 25. It is evident that the reference here is to the communications that God made at mount Sinai. There were three steps in regard to the children of Israel: the first was they were delivered from Egypt; the second, God communicated with them, and the third was, He brought them into an inheritance. The first was their salvation, the second was God's covenant, that is, God making known to them the terms on which He was going to be with them, and all was in view of their entering into the inheritance which God purposed for them. God had told them that He would not only bring them out, but that He would bring them in; between the two you get the covenant. They were to come into the land under the covenant which God made with them, and the covenant set forth the terms on which God saw fit to be with them; the surroundings, however, tended to strike terror into the people. They were greatly awed. The voice was so terrible that Moses said, "I exceedingly fear and quake". But the striking thing was, that although all was so terrible, the people soon got

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away from the influence of it. It was not long after that they completely departed. You have only to read the book of Numbers to see their conduct for the succeeding thirty-eight years. They forgot all the awe. It is most extraordinary that in a people affected by all that was terrible, the voice of God and the blackness and darkness and tempest, the impression should wear off so shortly. It was something like, "many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did". The impression of the miracles very soon wore off. People are not affected permanently in that way.

Now, the same principles apply to us. There are three steps; the first is to bring us out of the world. Egypt corresponds to that. The next is to bring us into inheritance, and between the two God brings us under covenant, or, to put it another way, He makes known the terms on which He is pleased to be with us here. Otherwise we could not have liberty with God. In any employment workmen work happily and cheerfully if they know the terms on which their master is with them. The new covenant is intermediate, in a way, in view of our coming into the inheritance which God has purposed. There were two things presented in the gospel which Paul preached: forgiveness of sins and inheritance. The Lord sent him to the gentiles, "To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified". God has in view an inheritance for His people. He had in view an inheritance for the children of Israel, and His purpose was to bring them into it, and so God has regard to us to bring us out of the world into His inheritance. The New Testament speaks of inheritance. We are Abraham's seed and heirs according to promise. Then, as I said, between the deliverance out of the world and our being brought into the inheritance, God establishes with us His covenant.

Now if you will look at the latter part of Ephesians 1, verse 18, when you understand what it means to head

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up in one all things in Christ, in heaven and on earth, you will know what is the riches of the glory of God's inheritance in the saints. In Israel the land of promise was God's inheritance in the saints. For us it consists in all that is put under Christ. That is the inheritance into which we come in Christ, and in view of that God makes known what are the conditions on which He is with us. If you will turn to Romans 5 you will see the conditions of the covenant, verses 1 - 5 and 11. I call your attention to two or three expressions in that passage as indicating the terms. The first verse brings in the thought of peace. God is with us on terms of peace. In the second verse we have grace and the hope of glory. Then further on we get tribulations. God allows that; it is not the terms exactly, but it is necessary, and the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit which is given unto us. Then, afterwards, "we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement" (reconciliation). Peace and grace, the hope of glory, love and reconciliation, are the terms on which God is with us at this present time. This comes in between deliverance out of the world and our being brought into the enjoyment of the inheritance. Nothing can be more important than that. If you want any enjoyment of liberty with God, it is all-important to learn the terms on which God is with you. And those terms are expressed in a risen Christ. Christ has secured peace. He is peace. Christ is full of grace; Christ is the hope of glory, so too the love of God is made known to us in Christ; and Christ is the blessed point of reconciliation. All these terms are set forth in a risen Christ. All God's communications centre in Him.

If you turn to the epistle to the Hebrews you see that side of things spoken of, verses 22 - 24. I want to show you that every one of the expressions there centres in a risen Christ, and that apart from a risen Christ you cannot enter into any of them. Take the first, mount Zion. It is evidently a contrast to mount Sinai. In mount Sinai

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there was no idea of a risen Christ. Mount Zion, on the other hand, you cannot understand except in the thought of a risen Christ. The true mount Zion is this, that whereas in the crucifixion of Christ all was forfeited on man's part, yet, after all, the will of God was accomplished in redemption, and in a risen Christ all is given back to man. The idea is taken from Psalm 68. The ark was taken into war by the children of Israel when they fought against the Philistines, and was taken captive by the Philistines. Every link with God was broken, when the ark was taken captive. He delivered their glory into the enemy's hand. It was the darkest day in Israel's history, but God employed David to bring back the ark, and David brought it to mount Zion. Then they sang the refrain, "His mercy endureth for ever". That is, the people had forfeited everything in their folly and wickedness, but in the sovereignty of mercy God brought back the ark. So it is in the sovereignty of mercy to man that God has raised Christ from the dead. Hence it is you get mount Zion. That is the first part of God's ways in regard to us.

Now I come to another, that is, the heavenly city. The city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, is dependent on a risen Christ. I will tell you my idea of a city -- a city is the seat of legislation. Take London or Washington. It is in that way the most important city. So of old, Jerusalem was the seat of legislation; if difficult cases arose they had to be brought to the priests at Jerusalem. God had placed His name there. Now if the city is the seat of legislation, the people of the city ought to be the first who are formed by the legislation. They should be a pattern. The city should be an example, and in that way exercise an influence on the whole country. Now where is our legislation centred? Where is the seat of it with us? I have no doubt it is a risen Christ; and as the children of the heavenly city we are the first to come under the influence of the legislation. How does that work? We come under the law of Christ. What comes before you as light is bound sooner or later to become to

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you law. Christ comes to us first as light, making known the mind of God, but He becomes to us law. You will find that principle in Psalm 19, you first get the light, then the law. And we are the first to come under the legislation, under the light and law of Christ. The apostle said to the Galatians, "Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ". If you want law, Christ is law to you. The Lord Jesus said, "Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls". The point on which I am speaking is one of immense importance. Christ is the covenant to make known the disposition of God, then He becomes law to us, we are married to Him. We come under the influence of the legislation in order that we may be a light, like a city set on a hill, the light of the world. That is what I understand by the heavenly Jerusalem. I read one word in regard to it, Revelation 21:22 - 24, "the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it". There was no room for the light of man's mind. The city is intended to be the great luminary of the universe. It is expressed in Ephesians 2, "That in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus". Then it goes on to say in the Revelation, "And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it". I speak of these things as showing what the thought of God is in regard to the heavenly city, the children of which have their character from being brought under the influence of a risen Christ who is God's law, I mean God's law to a christian. You cannot be without law. The apostle says, "not as without law to God, but as legitimately subject to Christ". Nothing is more abhorrent to God than lawlessness, and the way in which we escape from lawlessness is in being duly subject to Christ. What is the effect of it? We would be like Christ, meek and lowly in heart.

Now I take up the next thing, "an innumerable

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company of angels, the general assembly". That is dependent on a risen Christ. I might read a few verses in the gospel of John, chapter 1: 49 - 51. Nathanael confessed Jesus as Son of God and King of Israel according to Psalm 2, but the Lord refers to Psalm 8 as presenting greater things .He says, "thou shalt see greater things than these". Then He opens up the future and says, "Hereafter ye shall see heaven open", which is an immense thing, because when the heaven opens the universe is established in the light of God; but there is another thing, "and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man". Heaven and earth are brought into accord, and the angels of God are "descending on the Son of man". In 1 Peter 3, it says at the close of verse 22 that angels and authorities and powers are made subject to a Man, like the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of man. Now that you have a risen Christ you can understand the thought of an innumerable company of angels, the general assembly; the heavens are to be opened that they should attend on a risen Christ. Everything is put in place in that connection.

The next point is "the church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven". The church of the first-born, as I understand it, is those who are associated with the risen Christ, and that is where we are, properly speaking, at the present time. He is the first-born from the dead, but the first-born ones, on the ground of resurrection, are risen together with Him. That is the position of the church, and we are come to that, but how could you have come to that except with a risen Christ as the centre? Jesus says, "go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God". Then He comes into the midst and says, "Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Spirit". He brings them into association with Himself; they are risen with Him. They are the church of the first-born ones

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written in heaven. We have come to that in a risen Christ.

Then "God, the Judge of all". How can God be the Judge of all except in a risen Christ, for it is dependent on redemption. God could not enter into that relation toward man except through redemption. It is in a risen Christ that He takes up the kingdom. Israel had had many judges after the flesh, but God is now the Judge of all.

I pass on, "to the spirits of just men made perfect". How are they made perfect? In a risen Christ. He "was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification". These just men are perfect, as to their spirits, because Christ has been raised for their justification, as for ours.

Then, "to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant". A word in regard to that. If you will look at chapter 9, verse 15, it says, "And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance". I have been speaking of inheritance. God would not bring His people into inheritance without a covenant. It is absolutely necessary to inheritance. How could people get into the enjoyment of inheritance if they did not know the terms on which God is with them? It was set forth in type in Israel in the past. Well, the first covenant brought in transgressions, and these had to be cleared by the death of Christ, and death has come in for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that they which are called, being cleared of transgressions, may come into the enjoyment of the eternal inheritance; and to that end Christ is the Mediator of the new covenant, having cleared away all the transgressions. He brings into the enjoyment of the inheritance.

Then you get "the blood of sprinkling". How could you get the sprinkling, except in a risen Christ? Sprinkling is a term expressive of administration. The passage from

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beginning to end is dependent on and can only be read in the light of a risen Christ. Whether it is mount Zion, the heavenly city, the innumerable company of angels, the church of the first-born, God, the Judge of all, the spirits of just men made perfect, Jesus, the Mediator of the new covenant, or the blood of sprinkling, you can appreciate every one of them, in seeing that they centre in a risen Christ, and in fact every communication which God has to make to us must centre there.

Now, that is the character of the divine communications to us. God making known to us that which is in His purpose to establish, and there is no single thing which God has established but in a risen Christ. You get a vast arrangement when you find the blessed principle of mount Zion. It is the foundation of all. Then the heavenly city, the light of the nations, angels attending, and the church of the first-born, risen together with Christ -- God Himself taking in hand the government of the universe, and the spirits of just men made perfect, and the new covenant established, and the earth purged from its blood. The blood of Christ speaks better things than that of Abel, the earth is purged in the eye of God from the blood of violence. All that has come to pass in a risen Christ. It is a great thing to have a risen Christ distinctly before you. It takes you out of this world into the range of divine purpose. Then you get the admonition, "See that ye refuse not him that speaketh". There is nothing to awe you; all is more in the character of a still, small voice. A great many things passed in the view of Elijah; the storm, the tempest, and the fire, but God was not in any one of them. What affected Elijah was the still, small voice, and these communications come to us in the still, small voice. If we allow the will or lust of the flesh, we shall become insensitive to divine communications, hence it is extremely important that we should be found here walking in self-judgment so that our ears are opened to receive. There is no greater proof of divine goodness than in God giving to His people the spirit of understanding.

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The apostle prays that God would give them the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the full knowledge of Himself. May God give us understanding, and may we be attentive to the communications which God has made to us, and prepared to put aside and judge ourselves in respect of anything which tends to make us dull to these communications. The principle upon which God speaks to us is mount Zion, that is, the sovereignty of mercy when man has forfeited everything by his failure and sin.

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READING ON 2 CORINTHIANS

2 Corinthians 1:17 - 24

J.P. I suppose the first chapter of this epistle is similar to the first of the other epistle, in that you get in it the way in which Christ is presented in the epistle?

F.E.R. I think so. You get the governing thought in the first chapter.

J.P. Would you say what that is?

F.E.R. I think it is as the One in whom the promises of God are established and confirmed, "For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us ... was not yea and nay, but in him was yea. For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us".

W.M. Do these characteristics run through this epistle as in the first?

F.E.R. I think they govern the epistle. It is in that connection that we get the thought of the new covenant and reconciliation brought in. The promises of God are all yea and amen in Christ, because Christ is the covenant and reconciliation. The promises could not be fulfilled without the covenant and reconciliation. In regard to Israel the promises were not made good on account of the character of the covenant, the covenant depended on the people -- and there was no reconciliation in the law, only the shadows of it.

W.M. It was a provisional state of things until Christ came.

F.E.R. Yes. You get pious men like Daniel and Jeremiah continually referring to the promises -- because they had not been fulfilled. Israel was brought into the land provisionally and under a covenant which depended upon their conduct. Therefore, of course, all was provisional.

J.P. So in Hebrews 11, speaking of the Old Testament

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saints, they died in the faith of the promises. They did not receive them. They could not then.

J.S.A. You were saying an interesting thing in France regarding the covenant. There could not be a complete fulfilment of it until on both sides there was perfection. It is made good in Christ on both sides.

J.P. Could you unfold that a little?

F.E.R. What you find in Christ you can get nowhere else. He perfectly presents God to man, but at the same time He is all that man could be for God. You get perfection in the disposition of God toward man, but you get perfection as regards man God-ward. Hence everything can be brought to pass in Christ, because you have perfection on both sides.

J.P. So you say Christ must be the covenant because there is the setting forth of the disposition of God toward man and the perfect answer on man's part to God.

W.M. In that way the new covenant and reconciliation cover everything in connection with God's purpose.

F.E.R. They give you what is essential to the promises being fulfilled. You could not have the promises fulfilled without both -- the covenant is for man, reconciliation is for God. Things must be brought about in that way else the promises could not be fulfilled.

W.M. Is the new covenant all that God is toward man, and reconciliation all that man is for God?

F.E.R. All that everything is for God.

J.P. Because reconciliation, as we see in Colossians, embraces all things as well as man.

F.E.R. So that God can be complacent in all. Scripture speaks in Hebrews 4 of the rest of God and the rest of God includes divine complacency. It is akin to the thought in the beginning of Genesis when God saw all that He had made; it was very good. God was complacent in it. All that remains, as far as we are concerned, is, that we should be brought into accord with Christ. Ministry comes in to that end. There is a great deal

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about ministry in this epistle. The main part of the epistle is taken up with ministry and the ministers.

W.M. In chapter 6?

F.E.R. The ministry takes its character from Christ and the ministers take their character from Christ. You get Paul caught up into the third heaven as a man in Christ. Paul was the minister in a special way, both of the new covenant and of reconciliation. Then he is caught up to the third heaven so as to be perfectly affected by Christ.

J.P. So as in the end of chapter 1 of Colossians he laboured to present every man perfect in Christ.

F.E.R. That was the effect of Christ on him. "Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus".

E.A. What is it to present every man perfect in Christ Jesus?

F.E.R. I think it is the thought of full growth. Every spiritual faculty in full exercise.

W.M. And that includes every man.

F.E.R. That is the bearing of it, just as the gospel is preached in all the creation under heaven. The apostle took up things in that way; to enlighten all men as to what is the administration of the mystery. Many men might not consent to be enlightened, but that did not affect the apostle's ministry.

W.M. Where it says, in Christ is the yea, does that mean the confirmation of the promises of God?

F.E.R. I suppose so. Some had accused the apostle of levity, and his answer to it is that he was in accord with what he preached. He does not labour in defence of himself, but he tells them what he preached, and that levity is not in Christ. He is the yea and amen, the confirmation and certainty. It is a curious defence, one can only understand it in this way, that the apostle was conscious that in his ministry he took character from Christ. His life and ways were in accord with what be ministered.

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W.M. They were accusing him of lightly changing his purpose and not going to Corinth.

F.E.R. Yes, but he presented what he preached. That is his defence. He was not different in that way from that which he preached.

W.M. It is a wonderful identification of the servant with the ministry.

F.E.R. Yes. Then he takes up the ministry and the ministers and shows the process by which the ministers were trained. If any one wants to go to college for the ministry he ought to study this second epistle.

G.R. I am afraid not many would go in for the ministry.

F.E.R. No, it is rather a rough training, not pleasing to the flesh.

J.S.A. But then the apostle had the Son of God revealed in him and that is what we need not less than he, for the ministry.

F.E.R. It is very important in regard to all ministry of Christ, that we should be according to what we preach. Not preaching one thing and being another, "Thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life".

G.R. There would not be very much power in the ministry if it were not so.

F.E.R. We shall be judged in a way by what we minister; people are pretty quick to detect any inconsistency between what a man ministers and what he is.

G.R. Is it not a fact that it is what we are that is effective, not what we say?

F.E.R. It is largely so at all events.

W.M. Is that the principle set forth by the Lord, when He says, being challenged as to who He was, "Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning"?

F.E.R. Of course in His case it was absolute. You get the thought with the apostle, "thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life".

G.R. And so to the Thessalonians he says, "how

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holily and justly ... we behaved ourselves among you".

J.A. We ourselves ought to detect these differences.

F.E.R. It is remarkable that when the apostle was accused he turns to what he preached, afterwards he explains why he did not go to Corinth, but not at first.

G.R. Of course in Christ all is yea, no nay at all.

W.M. Their charge would mean as though the apostle had said yes, and then acted nay.

F.E.R. "That with me there should be yea yea, and nay nay". I think we ought to go a bit back to understand the point that you cannot get the promises of God until you get the new covenant and reconciliation. They are essential to the promise.

G.R. That is, there was no man to receive the promise until Christ came; no vessel.

F.E.R. You cannot get the covenant nor reconciliation except in Christ.

G.R. I thought of that word in Isaiah 50, "Wherefore, when I came, was there no man?" How could the promises be fulfilled?

F.E.R. A covenant demanded a man. The first covenant looked for something from man, but in the new covenant the Man is found.

G.R. In connection with that, what is the force of the term, a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one?

F.E.R. It is there a question simply of promise. In the case of Abraham there was no mediator. When it is promise there is no mediator. When it is a question of covenant a mediator is needed. Promise is simply the expression of divine purpose, and depends on nobody except God Himself; but when it is a question of covenant, it is the bringing two together, and hence the need of a mediator. Moses was the mediator of the old covenant and Christ of the new. God is one in regard to the promises. Galatians speaks of promise, not of covenant.

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W.M. Why bring in the mediator at all in connection with the law? I refer to the scripture, "Now a mediator is not a mediator of one".

F.E.R. To show the law was not of promise.

W.M. Because he is speaking of the two principles, promise and law.

J.B. In regard to the covenant made to Abraham, did it take more the character of promise?

F.E.R. It is purely promise; it is not covenant exactly.

J.B. He says, "ye shall keep my covenant".

F.E.R. That was simply the covenant of circumcision. It was not a covenant in the sense of law; to my mind covenant is essential to the fulfilment of promise. God will find His own way to fulfil the promises, the fulfilment is dependent on God; but for man in order that the promises may come into effect there must be covenant.

W.M. Why?

F.E.R. Man having departed from God must be made acquainted with the terms on which God is with him. The promises have reference to the blessing of man, and hence in order that the promises may be fulfilled there must be covenant.

J.S.A. And that you take to be the idea of covenant just as a testament or will shows the disposition of the testator. It is his disposition towards those to whom he leaves under his will.

W.M. This disposition is love.

F.E.R. It is righteousness, that is God's mind in regard to man; that is, in other words, the rights of mercy, and Christ is the perfect expression of it.

W.M. I do not know that I catch the connection exactly.

F.E.R. The covenant is seen in its principle in mount Zion; but then there must be the mediator of the covenant because the transgressions which were under the first covenant had to be taken up. God has in Christ taken up the transgressions under the first covenant

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and Christ is really the new covenant. He is the true mount Zion. Mount Zion shows the rights of mercy. It is on that ground God is with us and will be with Israel, and that is what the new covenant expresses, "I will be merciful to their unrighteousness" (the rights of mercy), "and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more".

G.R. Then is writing the law in their hearts a means to make the vessel fit to receive the promise?

F.E.R. I think so. There must be a work of God in man. As to the positive character of the covenant it is the ministration of righteousness.

J.P. So it is described in chapter 3.

F.E.R. The ministration of righteousness in contrast with the ministration of condemnation. The law was the ministration of condemnation because it took account of man's condition. The law did not bring condemnation or death; it ministered it, but if it was ministered by the law it must have been there. The law took account of the state of man; that was, that man was already under condemnation and death. The law ministered that.

G.R. The law was ordained unto life.

F.E.R. But it became a ministration of condemnation. It brought home to man what man already was.

W.M. Do you think the law raised the question whether man in the flesh was fit to be the vessel of the promises?

F.E.R. He was not fit to be the vessel of the promises and the law brought that home to him.

W.M. "If there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law".

F.E.R. Man was already under death. The law did not bring that.

W.M. The new covenant brings righteousness and the Spirit, and one can understand the promises being made good.

F.E.R. Exactly, because it is the ministration of

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Christ. The Lord is the Spirit. The rights of mercy are established in Christ. That is what I understand by righteousness. Mount Zion shows that, while everything has been forfeited by the unfaithfulness of man, God restores everything in the sovereignty of mercy in a risen Christ.

J.B. And behind that mercy is the love of God.

F.E.R. Exactly, "God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us".

G.R. Would you say that in the measure in which we are brought into accord with Christ we enter into the enjoyment of the blessing?

F.E.R. Quite so. You start by apprehending the rights of divine mercy in Christ. God has the right to have mercy and He has exercised that right, and the moment we believe in Christ we receive the Holy Spirit who attaches us to Christ.

J.B. Is that where the mercy-seat would come in?

F.E.R. Yes, it is to declare God's righteousness, that is, the rights of mercy.

J.S.A. Although it has come out distinctly now, it was always true as to the saints. It was the ground on which God had to do with Israel, "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy".

F.E.R. It was in anticipation of Christ.

W.M. Is that why verse 20 sets forth that being in the good of the new covenant we are brought in, "unto the glory of God by us"?

F.E.R. Yes, and then we get the idea of being attached to Christ. God "hath anointed us, who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts".

W.M. And we come into the blessing by being firmly attached to Christ?

F.E.R. Yes.

J.P. That reading is pretty nearly a scripture for "attachment".

F.E.R. That is what God is doing. The Lord says

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in John 12, "I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me". He is the presentation to us of the rights of God in mercy. God has right to have mercy on man, and that right is set forth in Christ as Man. That is the new covenant.

J.P. He is delighted to exercise the right.

F.E.R. He has done it and set it forth in a Man. That Man has a title to all men and all have title to that Man. He is the Mediator of the new covenant to bring together God and man.

J.P. The title does not lie in any difference between you and anybody else?

F.E.R. Not a bit. I have no more title than any other man, but I have as much, and Christ has equal title to everybody.

W.M. You call that the right of God in mercy, it is universal.

F.E.R. Yes, God has come out in that way and set forth His rights of mercy in a Man.

G.R. I suppose the thief on the cross gives a good illustration of it, "Lord, remember me".

F.E.R. I think so. Read attentively Romans 11. The gentiles are come in on the ground of mercy, and, provisionally, the Jewish branches are cut off, but they, too, will all come in on the ground of mercy.

A.W.S. How do we come into the possession of our rights in Christ?

F.E.R. I would not talk about 'our rights'. I think we come into blessing by having our eyes open to the apprehension .of Christ. All these rights of God are set forth in One who is the first among men, the Head of every man. Therefore, Christ has title to enlighten every man, and every man has title to Christ.

G.R. That is where the preaching comes in?

F.E.R. Yes, there is only one thing to preach, and that is Christ. You want to enlighten men.

J.S.A. But it shows more and more what is vitally important, that is the question of being attached to

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Christ; because if everything, from the forgiveness of sins to the new covenant and eternal life, are found in Him, everything depends on our being attached to Him.

F.E.R. Exactly. Until you are brought into attachment God will not take account of you. There may be an antecedent work of God in you, but, until you have the Spirit and are in attachment, you are not recognised as Christ's.

G.R. "If any man love God, the same is known of him". He does not know any one else.

G.W.H. The Spirit is the link.

F.E.R. Yes, and it is by the Spirit that you realise everything which is set forth in Christ, I mean you realise then things in their application to yourself. Until you come to use a thing, it is no good to you.

G.W.H. I suppose, too, the teaching of the new covenant is by the Spirit. It is the Lord that is that Spirit.

F.E.R. Yes, it says so. "We all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord".

G.W.H. That is the effect of it.

F.E.R. Yes, we are all changed into the same image from glory to glory. Like the Lord and like one another.

G.W.H. And that is why we enter into the moral good of the new covenant.

F.E.R. I think so. You come to appreciate and understand the terms on which God is with you. The benefit of that is this, you make use of it as a question of approaching God. When I am acquainted with the terms on which God is with me, I am free to approach God. So it is with a man in employment. As the man in employment knows the terms on which his employer is with him, he uses that with his employer. The same is true in a family.

J.B. Would you say that is, "accepted in the beloved"?

F.E.R. It goes to that.

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W.M. I suppose the truth of the second epistle would enable us to become worshipping priests?

F.E.R. I think so. You get an idea which is pretty much akin to the Hebrews, "beholding ... the glory of the Lord". I think it is you have entered the holiest, for the glory of the Lord is connected with His place as the ark of the covenant. If you entered the holiest you would find the ark of the covenant and the mercy-seat.

G.R. Speaking of the glory just now, what is the difference between the gospel of the glory of Christ and the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ?

F.E.R. There are the two things, the proper place of Christ as the last Adam, which is really the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, but there is also the revelation of God in Christ. He is the temple and the anointed Man, the last Adam in relation to man. But in the last Adam God is revealed. It is the light of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ, but connected with His own particular place as the last Adam.

J.P. And that is His glory.

F.E.R. That is His glory. Adam, as figure, had that place; now Christ is the image of God.

W.M. The same Person, from another side, is God Himself.

F.E.R. Therefore, you get the light of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

J.B. The church has no glory of its own.

F.E.R. Nothing but what is reflected. We behold the glory of the Lord and are changed.

W.M. Into the same image, means we all get like one another.

F.E.R. Yes; it is the idea of reflected light that we get in the heavenly city in the Revelation, precious stones and the like. We ought all to be able to see how essential the covenant is. You cannot conceive anything more important. And the great interest of the covenant is that it is set forth in a Man.

W.M. So that the way we approach God is by Christ,

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not simply mentioning His name but by being morally of Him.

F.E.R. He has come in to take a certain place in relation to men, and He has accomplished redemption that He might be the expression of divine righteousness to man, and that is the right of God to show mercy. The law set forth what one may call the primary rights of God, for God had certain rights in regard of His creatures; God has the same rights in regard of every intelligent creature whether angel or man. But then man did not answer to those rights. Then God takes up other rights, which He sets forth in redemption, and that is His righteousness. Through the grace of God men do answer to that. We come in on that ground when our eyes are opened, and we are led to recognise the mercy of God in Christ.

J.P. That is, as to the primary rights of God, God had those resources in Himself, and they have come out in Christ, and that is why He is the wisdom of God.

J.A. Mercy might well find a large place in our hearts.

F.E.R. Yes, we are not come unto mount Sinai, that is what you may call the primary rights, but to mount Zion.

W.M. And you get in Romans, "That he might have mercy upon all".

J.B. Mount Zion is to be His dwelling-place for ever.

F.E.R. Yes, it is His delight. Now I think we might look at reconciliation as another point of very great importance in connection with the promises. There must be reconciliation. That is for God, while the covenant is for man. Reconciliation stands in contrast to alienation, that is, moral distance. Sin brought in alienation, and in contrast to that everything has to be brought into complacency. The prodigal not only came back to the father, but the father had complacency in the prodigal. Reconciliation is essential in the accomplishing of divine purpose just as the new covenant is essential to us.

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J.S.A. And it was spoken of by the prophets in a way, "the times of restitution of all things".

W.M. Reconciliation, like the new covenant, is in Christ.

F.E.R. But reconciliation involves the question of state.

W.M. "Holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight".

F.E.R. It means the displacement of man's glory, self-conceit, and self-sufficiency, and all that has been judged in the death of Christ, so that all should come under the eye of God in Christ.

W.M. It is Christ in the saints.

F.E.R. Everything will come under God's eye in Christ. Israel will. You get that typically in the furniture of the tabernacle. Israel came out of Egypt and has still to come under God's eye in Christ, and even the nations will come under the eye of God in Christ. So it is now in regard to the church, reconciliation is in Christ. "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself". The point is, that in Christ is perfect divine complacency in man. On the one hand, Christ is the expression of God's righteousness to man, but on the other hand, Christ is all that man should or could be, so that He is the point of complacency for God.

G.R. Is that involved in such expressions as, "in the Lord have I righteousness and strength"?

F.E.R. That is our side; it is the covenant. But then God has complacency in Him. Christ is the true sabbath. God has perfect rest in Him and will have only Him before Him.

W.M. So that in the world to come God will have perfect complacency in everything.

F.E.R. Yes, Christ has tasted death for everything and everything comes into reconciliation in Christ.

W.M. God will see one Man only.

F.E.R. Yes.

G.W.H. In Christ He has reached His rest now.

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F.E.R. It says, "In whom I have found my delight". Christ went into the reality of the distance to remove it, and now He subsists as the point of complacency; that is the truth of the present moment.

J.S.A. But it shows the infinite importance of the Son becoming a Man. I do not think we realise that adequately.

F.E.R. I do not think that we do.

W.M. That brought in complacency at once.

F.E.R. It did not exactly remove the distance, but it brought in the point of complacency.

W.M. Do you think there is any analogy in that Adam was set up as head and then marriage came in, then the nations, then Israel, and that all these will be seen in connection with Christ in the world to come?

F.E.R. Everything is taken up in Christ. He takes the place of Abraham, and of Isaac, the risen man; of Jacob, for He will rule over the house of Jacob for ever; of Moses as the apostle; of Aaron as priest; of David as king. So too of Solomon, every position. So too of the head of the gentiles. Every position is taken up in Christ. God will gather together in one all things in Christ.

J.B. And He will fill all things.

G.W.H. When it says in Hebrews, we are to labour to enter into the rest, is it that we are to apprehend Christ as the rest of God?

F.E.R. I think so.

W.M. Not to apostatise.

F.E.R. Of course the time to come is strictly speaking the rest of God, God will rest in the fact of everything being put under Christ.

J.P. As you said just now, Christ is the sabbath. It will be a sabbath-keeping.

F.E.R. In Genesis you get the seventh day, but that seventh day has not been completed yet. It is a long day; God rested from the labour of His hands on the seventh day, but that seventh day is continued. The rest was broken in upon, but it is to be continued.

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J.P. Christ is the Head of the creation of God, and it is in the fact of His being the Head that God will find rest in the creation.

G.W.H. What is the relation between reconciliation and new creation?

F.E.R. I think new creation is essential to reconciliation, there is no reconciliation in the flesh. Reconciliation is in Christ, and hence what has come to pass in us is what is witnessed in the cross; that is, the having put off the old man and put on the new, and the new man is created after God.

J.P. If reconciliation involves state, new creation is necessary for the state.

F.E.R. Yes, the renewing of the Holy Spirit. We have the word or testimony of reconciliation, for reconciliation exists for God, but then it is a very important point that reconciliation should be made good in us and that involves new creation.

J.B-n. Does not Scripture say we are reconciled by the death of His Son?

F.E.R. Yes. There was the putting off of the old man in the death of Christ, and Christ is the new man morally.

J.B. We become the righteousness of God in Him. Is that what you mean by state?

F.E.R. In the new man is state, but not the righteousness of God exactly.

J.B. We come unto complacency.

F.E.R. Yes, we come into divine complacency, but it is in Christ. I think Mr. Darby expressed it that we might be the delight of God as regards righteousness. There is the thought of complacency like the father in the prodigal. The prodigal had on the best robe and the ring and the shoes, and the father said: Let us make merry. You get in it the rights of God in mercy. He delights in them, and He wants us to delight in them.

W.M. Where the distance was, Christ is.

J.P. That passage in Colossians makes it very plain

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that reconciliation is in contrast to alienation. "You that were sometimes alienated".

F.E.R. Exactly. But you are reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, which is the termination of the old man, to present you holy, unblameable and unreproveable in His sight. That is the new man. It is according to what God is Himself.

Ques. Will you please say a word in connection with the judgment-seat of Christ and new creation. The apostle puts new creation after the judgment-seat.

F.E.R. There is the question of our responsibility, but the judgment-seat of Christ has reference to the kingdom more than to the thought of new creation. The apostle brings it in in connection with his ministry. "We persuade men". There is no practical difficulty about that, because though we are a new creation in Christ we have not come to the end of our responsible course down here, and we must get the estimate of Christ in regard to that. We are left here in the absence of Christ, and there may be some mixture, a bit of new creation coming out as ruling a man, and yet he has service and work in which he is responsible to Christ; and I think we must all receive His mind as to the way we have carried out things in our pathway here, and that is what will come out at the judgment-seat of Christ. I do not think that is inconsistent with the thought of new creation; the judgment-seat has reference to the whole of our responsible course from beginning to end, but when once converted and renewed then it is that new creation becomes the governing principle and rule of our walk. We walk according to the rule of new creation.

E.A. Why should the judgment-seat of Christ have to say to our life before our conversion?

F.E.R. It says: "the things done in his body".

E.A. Does not that refer to after we are converted?

F.E.R. I should think it takes in all; it refers to a man's entire history.

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E.A. Nothing could be rewarded before conversion.

F.E.R. But I think a man has to get Christ's estimate of all his course.

L.F.B. In view of man's responsible term of life.

J.B-n. To show God's grace in connection with us.

F.E.R. You would not object to get Christ's estimate of your pathway.

W.M. You have what is expressed in the first epistle of John: "boldness in the day of judgment".

F.E.R. There are a lot of intricacies in regard to our pathway. Before our conversion God had us in view, and certain things were working which you never have understood. You will get light on that at the judgment-seat of Christ.

G.W.H. There will be no condemnation there.

F.E.R. It is not even a question of reward. It is that you may receive the things done through the body. What I understand is that you will get the estimate of Christ of the things done through the body.

J.S.A. And you will get the right thought of the motives and counsels. The apostle says in effect: 'I could not be sure of my motives till I see things aright in that day'.

J.A. A great incitement to lay up a good store.

W.M. When the apostle says: "sinners; of whom I am chief", he looked back upon his whole course.

F.E.R. I think so. I have taken up the thought of the judgment-seat from Mr. Darby. It was his thought and I think a just one.

E.A. Are we to understand from Paul's word that there never was a greater sinner than he?

F.E.R. I think in his own eyes there never was, he looked upon himself as being peculiarly bad on account of having persecuted the saints. He had been the apostle of persecution and blasphemy.

W.M. And I suppose for the same reason he calls himself, "less than the least of all saints".

F.E.R. I think so. It was genuine. He never forgot he had been the apostle of persecution.

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J.N.H. Do you mean the apostle of man's will?

E.E.R. Yes. He was the special apostle of man's will. He blasphemed the name and haled men and women to judgment.

J.N.H. He desired letters to Damascus to that end.

F.E.R. He never lost the sense of all that.

J.N.H. It has been said he hated Christ more than any man when he persecuted the church.

F.E.R. And he hated all connected with Christ. He hated the idea of the rights of God in mercy. He could not bear the idea of all men being equal, he stood out for the idea of righteousness by law. You get the same kind of spirit in Jonah. He could not bear to go to the Ninevites to give them a warning. He hated the idea of it and reproached God, and said, 'I knew that Thou art gracious', etc., actually reproaching God with being gracious and long-suffering.

J.S.A. The Pharisees would not learn that God would have mercy and not sacrifice.

F.E.R. And the Lord reproaches them with that.

E.A. What does it mean: "and not sacrifice"?

F.E.R. I think God does not care about sacrifice on the part of man, for man cannot render anything to God. God delights in mercy, and will have man to delight in His mercy.

G.R. David points that out, when he says: "What shall I render unto the Lord for all his benefits?" And the answer is: "I will take the cup of salvation".

F.E.R. You get the sacrifices of righteousness, the fruit of our lips, but then that is in the sense of divine mercy. I think it is important to see how essential the covenant and reconciliation are to the accomplishment of divine purpose. Then you can understand how Christ is the Yea and Amen of all God's promises, because He is the covenant and He is the reconciliation.

G.R. In connection with that why does the apostle say: "unto the glory of God by us"?

F.E.R. Because we are for the moment holding

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everything for Israel. The glory of God is maintained now in the church, the true Israel. God has no glory in Israel literally, but He has it in a way in us. It is an interesting point in connection with the heavenly city that in the gates of the city are the names of the twelve tribes of Israel. What do the Jews care now about the promises? They are almost the most ungodly people on earth. They care for little except money; the church is holding the promises.

W.M. And so the saints now are the Israel of God.

F.E.R. The consequence is that Israel will be dependent on the heavenly city for light.

W.M. I suppose we might have to explain things to them yet.

F.E.R. Yes, I have a sort of pleasure in the thought that I may be sent out on some errand to earth. The thing is that we know more about Israel's calling than they do themselves.

W.M. You could explain for instance eternal life better than they.

J.S.A. And what the Shepherd is.

J.B-n. How do you explain Luke 16?

F.E.R. I think a rich man makes a mistake in holding his goods for himself. The thought of their being another man's is that they are Christ's. One is simply here as a steward.

J.N.H. Although riches are called "the mammon of unrighteousness".

F.E.R. If you take them up as stewards you can use them safely. I have nothing of my own at the present time. I only have in my hands what I regard as being another's. But the time will come when I shall get my own.

G.R. So today it is not the mind of God for you to give a tenth.

F.E.R. No. It is all His.

W.M. You have the light of your own things now.

F.E.R. Yes, the light, but you have not got them yet.

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THE LAST SHALL BE FIRST AND THE FIRST LAST

Matthew 19:27 - 30; Matthew 20 1 - 16

It is a great thing to be rightly impressed with the One with whom we have to do, that is Christ. We often want to accommodate Him to our ideas of right and wrong, but He has His own thoughts and His own way of looking at things. He will not judge according to our thoughts, and we have to take that into account. We shall see this coming out in a remarkable way in this parable.

The parable is one of a series of four. You will find one in chapter 18, this one in chapter 20, another in chapter 22, and the last one in chapter 25. In the gospel of Luke you get a remarkable series of three parables, that is the creditor with two debtors, the good Samaritan, and the prodigal; and there is a great contrast between the character of these two sets of parables. The parables in Matthew to which I have referred are more or less on the ground of responsibility. The parables in Luke are on the ground of grace. The creditor forgave both debtors. The Samaritan had mercy on the man that fell among thieves; and the father expressed his own joy in the prodigal. Here, on the other hand, you get a succession of similitudes of the kingdom of heaven, and from the very fact of the kingdom of heaven being in view -- things are taken up more on the footing of responsibility. In chapter 18 we get the order or rule of the kingdom. That is, that I have to act as I have been acted to on the part of God. Man's idea is retaliation. If a man is struck, he will strike again, but the divine principle is to act as God has acted to me. If I have been forgiven ten thousand talents, I have to go out in the spirit of forgiveness. I have not to take my debtor by the throat, and say, "Pay me that thou owest". The principle of

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responsibility comes into the parable, for the Lord adds, "So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses". The man that owed ten thousand talents probably represented the Jew, and in visiting man, as God did in Christ, He forgave him the ten thousand talents; and yet the Jew was not affected by it, he went on the principle of legality and exaction to his own debtor, and hence he has to pay all his debt. God's provisional dealings are all as was the case with the Jew when Christ was presented. If man does not answer to those dealings, there will be the same result in christendom. Christendom is enjoying enormous benefits at the present time through the gospel, but if it does not answer to the goodness of God it will come under the whole weight of its debt, the wrath of God. There is no doubt that such will be the end of christendom, but the present moment is one of great privilege. Even the material advance that has occurred in christendom has, to a very large extent, been the effect of the light of christianity coming into the world. But there will be a dark day, for undoubtedly the general spirit of christendom is not according to the grace in which God has been pleased to visit the world. That is the first parable.

Then the second parable shows the dispensation of the kingdom, I mean the way in which the Lord deals things out. Then in the third parable is the marriage supper, in which we see the king's right of inspection. There again you get the thought of responsibility. There was a man which had not on a wedding garment. He had no right to come in to the supper without such a garment. Then you get the climax of these parables in the ten virgins, and that brings in the bridegroom. These four parables are peculiar, and you will do well to study them, for we have to face these things.

I think I have said enough to show that these four parables as similitudes of the kingdom of heaven all go on the ground of responsibility, just as the three

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in Luke go on the ground of grace. Both are true. You see our responsibility to continue in the light of grace, and when people get away from that light they fail in responsibility. Our responsibility is to continue in the faith and not to be moved away from the hope. As long as we continue in the faith we are in the light of grace.

Now as to this particular parable, there is just one word prefatory which I would like to say. Some people raise a difference between the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God. It is an interesting point because the distinction, and there is a distinction, what I might call a nice distinction, is important enough to be understood. I understand the kingdom of God to mean support. None of us can do without it. It is connected with the Spirit of God. The Spirit of God maintains in us the moral sway of God, and that furnishes moral support. The heart of man is a feeble vessel, and there is no heart but wants divine support down here. We are maintained here by the kingdom of God, which is righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

The kingdom of heaven presents another thought, and the best illustration that I know of it is the sun in heaven, we all require the sun in order that we may walk down here. It is a difficult thing to find your path here if you have not light. We can walk very well on a bright moonlight night, but the light of the moon is only the light of the sun reflected; in a general way we walk in the day because we want the light of the sun so as not to mistake our way and stumble over this and that thing. And the value of the kingdom of heaven to us is that we walk now in the light of the day, in the light of that luminary which God has been pleased to establish in heaven. In Genesis God set a great light to rule the day. God has now set in heaven a great moral light so that man here may not walk in darkness, but may have direction and guidance in regard to his way. Everyone will understand to what I allude. God has set Christ in heaven, to be light down here upon earth, so

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that man may walk under the sway and in the light of that which God has been pleased to establish in heaven. If a christian does not walk in the light of Christ in heaven he will not do the right thing. People in the present day are trying to build something upon earth. Some will build up an institute, others a missionary society; all kinds of organisations are built up by people in the world. I think it to be a mistake because in the question of our service we ought to maintain the principle of individuality. We are not to combine to form some great institution. If a man has a gift to preach the gospel, he might go out with a fellow, for God may approve of two going together, but any man who goes out in the way of service has to go out on his individual responsibility, and has to walk in the light of the sun in heaven. He does not want to get his direction from institutes or missionary societies or churches or anything of that kind. It is contrary to the spirit of Scripture. An apostle went and did his own work without conferring with any one else. Paul did not confer with anybody. The same was true with Peter and John. They took their direction from heaven, each one for himself, and so it was with all the workers of whom we read in Scripture. Apollos did not confer with the apostles where he should go or what he should do. He took his direction from Christ. The same principle holds good at the present time, and where the appreciation of Christ is, as a great luminary in heaven, you will get real guidance as to your pathway down here. It is a great thing to be delivered from the combinations and organisations which men have formed and to understand one's own responsibility as to service, and that is made effectual by light from Christ. There are many who seek to serve the Lord. They need not go and consult with other people what they should do or where they should go. I suppose there is not one here who is not capable of some kind of service, even if it be small and not of much account. You have to maintain the principle of individual

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responsibility. You stand or fall to the Lord. Take your guidance for service from the Lord. Let it be a matter between you and Him. There is a great light in heaven, and in that light a man has to walk down here.

Now I will tell you one first principle in regard to that, because I want to make the truth practical if I can. You will not get much light from heaven if you disregard that which belongs to Christ down here, and that is the church of God. The church is not to direct me in regard to service, but if we disregard that which Christ has built, and which is of extreme importance in the eye of Christ, we will not get very much light from the luminary in heaven; and the reason is this, not that there is not light for you, but you have a kind of scales over your eyes which prevent your seeing what is important in the eye of Christ. I pity people who are looking to some great organisation down here. That is not the church of God. Christ builds nothing that the eye of man can see; anything which the eye of man can take account of is not the building of Christ. You can only apprehend Christ's building by the Spirit of God, and it is a great thing to have your eyes anointed with eye-salve so that you can apprehend Christ's work down here. What He builds is inconsiderable in the world, but it is perceived by those who have spiritual intelligence. And if you apprehend what Christ is building and seek to walk in the light of the church, of what is according to Him, you will find yourself in very real light as to your individual pathway of service.

Now I come to our parable, verses 8 - 16. It is called out by what occurred in the latter part of the previous chapter. Peter began to say, "Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?" Jesus said unto them, "Verily I say unto you, that ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And every one that hath forsaken houses, or

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brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life. But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first". The parable is brought in to emphasise what the Lord said, "many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first". That is, that in the dispensation of Christ in the vineyard, all man's thoughts are overturned. The first in nature becomes the last in grace. And on the other hand, the last in nature may become the first in grace. Everything is reversed, for the whole footing is changed. Now I want to make this plain if I can. First you get those hired at the outset and they come under agreement. Of course I am speaking of the principle; it is a parable and you cannot construe a parable too literally; those who were hired at the outset represent a class of people who come in on the ground of agreement. It is a kind of bargain. They bargain to labour for a penny a day. I will tell you what I think that class represents, looking abroad in christendom. I look upon it as consisting of the official people who take up the work of the Lord as a profession and expect a certain consideration. I have no doubt if they are really godly they would expect to get fruit of their labour, and they enter in that way into bargain. They have taken up the service in that way, but they will find that though the Lord will be perfectly faithful to the bargain, it is not a ground which the Lord cares much about. There is plenty of it abroad. I have come across a good many of the official class who have taken up labour in that sense, and the Lord has never deceived them, they have got that they bargain for, but not much more.

But there is another class, what I may call a sort of worthless vagabonds, men good for nothing, who have never fitted in. A good many of us would belong to that class. There is nothing into which we can well fit. There are great and very respectable institutions in the world, bodies which have a place in the estimation of

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man and which God may have used, but one is such a poor thing that you cannot fit into any one of them. One is like a man that cannot find work. There have been and are people of that kind. Now the Lord tells such to go into the vineyard and they shall receive what is right. They never bargained for a penny, but they find themselves as well off as those who have borne the burden and heat of the day. The bargaining never came to much. I do not see that the official men are the men who are really being used in christendom. They do not get much more in the way of wages than the idlers who have gone into the vineyard on the bidding of the Lord and have trusted Him as to what He saw fit to give them. The reckoning time comes and they get their penny. The Lord will take up people of that description. He is not very fond of a bargain. He would rather have to do with people who come in as worthless as far as the great organisations of this world are concerned. Those who come in in that way come in trusting the lord of the vineyard, and they get their result. I have seen people who have made a good deal of sacrifice for the sake of the truth and have come into the vineyard, but I never saw that, in their thought, they gained good commensurate with the sacrifice. Who of us ever made a sacrifice at all? Suppose I have had to leave friends or kindred, I have made no sacrifice. It is deliverance. What we thought to be a sacrifice was God's way of deliverance for us, and therefore the ground of bargaining is all a mistake. The Lord will not appreciate it. We have to take things up in an entirely different spirit, and where we think we have made sacrifices, there has been the Lord's hand delivering us from entanglements that we might be free to labour in His vineyard. It is a great thing to understand what He appreciates. Peter was looking at things from man's side, and you will blunder if you look at things from that side. The thing is to see things from Christ's side, then you will see that everything is right. He will do right. He will certainly give

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all that He agreed to give, but He does not like agreement. Agreement is really legality. He likes you to take your place as worthless down here, fit for nothing in the world. If anybody asks me why I do not attach myself to this organisation or that, my answer must be I am not good enough. I am not good enough for the camp and that is why I have gone outside the camp. I do not feel that I can take any place religiously upon earth, I have forfeited all here. If other people think themselves good enough I do not object to it, but I am not good enough. The thing for us is to go outside the camp where you get the worthless people. Then you get the Lord on that ground, because He can have mercy on the worthless. You do not talk of what you have given up and forsaken, the sacrifices you have made. But on the other hand, you see the good hand of the Lord setting to work to deliver you from associations and entanglements which would have hindered you, so that you can work in the vineyard, and you find yourself as well off as those who have borne the burden and heat of the day. It is a great thing to understand the Lord's way, to accept His dispensation. The way He deals with things will not accommodate itself to man's thoughts, but it will always be right. He loves righteousness and hates lawlessness. But who of us is fit for anything here by nature? We are not fit for anything in the light of God. We are poor worthless things without light or power to guide ourselves, and had much better take the position of labour answering to the appeal of the Lord to go into the vineyard, on His word, 'whatsoever is right that will I give to you'. That is the Lord's way, the first shall be last and the last first. No one finds his true level morally in the world. We often see people of little character and moderate ability successful in the world, while men of ability and character make a failure in the world. But as soon as people come into the light of God and into the truth of the church, they find their level. The first are last and the

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last first, not naturally but spiritually. Who will be first? A person like Mary of Bethany; one who had a great appreciation of Christ. John is first, he had great affection for the Lord. Christ has rights and He has accomplished redemption. What have you accomplished? You have done nothing but add to the confusion in the world; that is all that you and I have done. We found a world of confusion and have added to it. Christ, on the other hand, has accomplished redemption, that out of lawlessness He might bring order. Do you want to be first in the economy of Christ? The way is to appreciate Christ, and if you do you will be content to carry out any labour with confidence in Christ. You will be content that He should give you what He sees fit.

Now that is the dispensation of the kingdom and we have to face it, and the sooner we face it the better. The sooner we give up all idea of sacrifice on our part the better. We had a part in the confusion of the world and it is no sacrifice to give that up.

May the Lord give you better understanding than I can attempt to help you to! It is a great thing to understand the principles of the kingdom, and when we do understand them we shall be prepared to admit that they are right.

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READINGS ON THE FIRST EPISTLE OF JOHN (1)

John 1 and John 2:1 - 11

R.S.S. I think you said in Rochester that in this epistle Christ is presented as the true God, and eternal life.

F.E.R. Yes. The light, as far as I see, in which Christ is presented in any particular epistle gives you the clue to the epistle. That holds good in the doctrinal epistles; the epistles written to individuals have a somewhat different character.

R.S.S. I think we can see how in this epistle Christ is presented as the eternal life.

F.E.R. He is presented not only as the eternal life, but as the true God and eternal life.

R.S.S. You mean you must take the two together.

F.E.R. Yes.

J.P. And take them in their own order.

F.E.R. Yes. The first great thought in the epistle is light. That is the true God. "God is light". Then you get the other point, that He is eternal life, but eternal life could only come in, it is evident enough, in the light of God. That is the first necessity. There are three things in the epistle, that is, light, eternal life, and witness, but light is the most important of all.

W.M. You mean by light the revelation of God.

F.E.R. It is only in God coming out that you get eternal life brought in. You could not get eternal life while God was hid.

J.P. Hence you could not have eternal life brought in in the Old Testament.

F.E.R. Because God was not revealed. All waited for the declaration of God. Then the blessing comes in. In Psalm 133 it says, "there the Lord commanded the blessing, even life for evermore", that is in Zion, and in Zion is the place where God sees fit to dwell. To talk

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about eternal life before God came out in the revelation of Himself is unreasonable.

J.P. Hence the mentions of eternal life in the Old Testament look on to the future.

F.E.R. To the moment when God would come out.

Ques. Is not the same true in the three gospels, Matthew, Mark and Luke? They look on to the truth of eternal life the same as the Old Testament.

F.E.R. To a large extent. It is only John that gives us the present application of it.

J.S.A. And that present application lies in the knowledge of the true God.

F.E.R. Because God is declared, hence in the introductory part of John's gospel, "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him". That is, that God has come out in Christ, and so the truth is taken up in the epistle. He is the true God and eternal life.

J.P. So the object for which the gospel was written was to bring people to the faith of His Person, and into the light of all that was set forth in His Person.

F.E.R. Exactly. "That ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name".

O.O'B. Do I understand you that the application in John's gospel is to the present?

F.E.R. John appears to be the only writer who gives the application of eternal life to the present. The other writers connect it with the coming age.

O.O'B. Perhaps I did not put it right. Is that the only aspect as we get it in John 17, the knowledge?

F.E.R. That is the aspect in the present. In John 17 you have not the words of John, but the words of Christ Himself.

W.M. In the epistle of John you get eternal life spoken of as promise.

F.E.R. But the promise has come to pass. I think it

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is intelligible. All blessings are in a public way connected with the time when God will come out in the world to come. They wait for that moment, but in christianity that moment is anticipated, in the power of the Spirit. A great many of our blessings we get in anticipation of what is to be displayed. We "rejoice in hope of the glory of God". When God shines out in glory then it is that all blessings will be brought in.

W.M. And that is the invariable line that John pursues.

F.E.R. And Paul, too. Paul is continually giving a present application to things which strictly are future.

G.W.H. Would you say in the gospel you get the light of eternal life, and in the epistle the knowledge of it?

F.E.R. I think the great ruling point in the gospel is the declaration of God. In the first instance the revelation of the Father in the Son, and then the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Rem. I should judge that eternal life is primarily connected with the kingdom.

F.E.R. I think it all looks on to that. I was speaking in connection with the order of the epistle, that of necessity the first thing to come out is light. Till you get light, that is, the revelation of God, you cannot get anything else. Then the light, in the way in which it has come in, of necessity brings with it another thing, that is fellowship, but the beginning must be light. In Genesis the first thing is light; darkness was on the face of the deep, and God said, "Let there be light". The apostle Paul takes up that thought in saying that "God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ". The fact is this, God has said, "Let there be light" and light has come.

G.R. It was the departure from God that brought in death and darkness, and so the knowledge of God brings in light and life.

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F.E.R. I think the revelation of God brings in light. You could not get life without it. In Genesis you do not get animal life till after the earth is set in relation to the sun. When the great light is appointed then there is the development of life.

J.P. That is the true order.

F.E.R. It must be the order.

Ques. Would you say, the order as we apprehend it, is light and life and love?

F.E.R. I think you have left out an important point in it. We get light, but then you want the ruling centre, then it is you get life. Light and the ruling centre are two distinct things.

J.S.A. You mean by that, Christ must have been placed as the Head and centre of the new system.

F.E.R. As the centre in the moral universe, then you get life.

W.M. I suppose like the sun that gives impulse and brings in life.

F.E.R. Puts everything in movement and vibration.

W.B-t. Would we not understand eternal life better if we connected it more with God and less with ourselves?

F.E.R. But the point this morning is light.

W.M. Our subject is, the true God.

F.E.R. Yes. Because all is dependent on the declaration of God and on Christ being brought in as Head and centre of the moral universe.

T.A. That we get the good of by the word that is spoken.

F.E.R. The word of life to my mind is the revelation of God.

Rem. I suppose you would say that light is the true knowledge of God.

F.E.R. The knowledge of God, as God has been pleased to reveal Himself.

J.P. Light is rather revelation; knowledge is on our part, and revelation on God's part.

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F.E.R. And hence knowledge is in a way progressive. It has been said that the very fact of there being knowledge proves there is something to be learnt.

W.M. But revelation is complete and final.

J.S.A. It is interesting to note that the moment light is introduced there is a separation between light and darkness. God divided the two, so that henceforth they are separate.

F.E.R. As in Genesis, so here. "God is light, and in him is no darkness at all", but then He is in the light, that is in the light of revelation, or declared. God has not yet come out publicly as He will do, but He has come out in the declaration of Himself in Christ, and hence Christ is said to be the true God.

J.S.A. And therefore the immense importance for us to seek to be in the light of God's revelation in Christ.

R.S.S. There is a distinction between "God is light" and "he is in the light". I think we clearly understand what the last means, but when it says "God is light" is it in contrast to darkness?

F.E.R. Because it says immediately, "in him is no darkness at all". You cannot find in God any kind of sanction for moral evil. There are dark spots in the sun but not in God, and the practical result is that in the light of God everything is exposed. You never get everything in man exposed till he is in the light of God. The philosopher does not know man. He does not know himself; nor does the man of science. No man knows himself as he is in the light of God.

W.M. Is that what is meant in the expression in the gospel, "That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world".

F.E.R. It shed its light on every man. Philosophy accommodates things to man as man. Science does not concern itself with moral considerations. It is occupied with what is material.

J.P. It is very important that we should adhere to the moral force of all these terms.

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F.E.R. Yes. I think it is a tremendous thing "that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all".

J.S.A. The gods of the heathen personified principles, evil lusts, etc., but the true God is in absolute contrast to all that.

R.S.S. There could not be any greater discovery than that.

F.E.R. Hence you must be in the light of God to be completely exposed.

G.R. Is that what Saul of Tarsus found out? He had to do with God fully revealed.

F.E.R. Yes.

Ques. "The darkness is passing and the true light already shines". Has that reference to the fact that the revelation of God was made known and was effecting a moral work?

F.E.R. I think so.

E.A. When will the darkness have passed?

F.E.R. When Christ comes in as the Sun of righteousness, He will dissipate all the darkness. Then it is that God breaks through everything which has hitherto concealed Him, and comes out in glory, in the effulgence of what He is.

W.M. Do you think this chapter involves the thought that for the light of God to be pleasant to us it reaches us in the One who is the Head and centre of the universe?

F.E.R. Yes. And there is another very important point, that at the very point where the light came out fully, there man was ended. I think that is a great mercy, because it would be an awful thing to get the discovery of what we are in the light of God if that were not so.

W.M. Man after the old order.

F.E.R. The point is, he is exposed, but be is terminated. If you make the discovery in yourself of the crookedness of man it is a great mercy to know that that man has been terminated for God.

W.M. Where God was expressed man was removed.

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F.E.R. I think that is the truth.

Rem. Here it says God is light, and in Psalm 27 Jehovah is my light.

F.E.R. That is a different idea. So you get the preaching of Christ as a light to the gentiles and God's salvation to the ends of the earth. I suppose David felt himself to be in a scene of darkness, but in the darkness Jehovah was his light.

G.W.H. In John 8 you get Christ spoken of as the light, and it is there really the most terrible exposures are made.

F.E.R. Yes. There was no doubt about the woman's sin, but what comes out is that the Pharisees were exposed.

Rem. "Now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth".

F.E.R. They went out, beginning at the eldest unto the least.

Ques. Is not that same thought carried out in John 9?

F.E.R. But you see there another thing, in chapter 8 it is exposure, in chapter 9 it is enlightenment. These are the two effects of light. It enlightens and exposes. If you do not get light you cannot see anything. I mean in natural things. If light comes in you can see everything about you. You are enlightened.

W.B-t. How about the man who hates his brother? He is in darkness; he walketh in darkness, but he has eyes.

F.E.R. Yes, but his eyes are blinded.

R.S.S. I think you said the first effect of light is fellowship.

F.E.R. I think fellowship hangs on the way in which light has come in. The way in which light will come in hereafter, when Christ arises as the Sun of righteousness with healing in His wings, will not necessitate fellowship, but now it does.

R.S.S. Because there is darkness now, but there will not be then.

F.E.R. Light is not universal now. It becomes a bond

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to those who are enlightened. I think you can understand that. And it brings us in that way into fellowship.

J.P. And that shows the connection in verse 7, "If we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another".

F.E.R. Our bond of fellowship is the light. Take Jerusalem. The light came in, but the light did not pervade Jerusalem, but the light enlightened certain persons. It became a bond among them, they continued steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship.

J.S.A. It is very important to get the idea, that this is the true bond of fellowship and not anything that is external.

F.E.R. Yes, the light has come in in the way of testimony, as the apostle says at the beginning. We "bear witness", and hence the testimony becomes the bond of fellowship.

W.M. I suppose the character of the light indicates how holy and exclusive the fellowship is.

F.E.R. Exactly. It ought to be according to the light.

W.M. In Him is no darkness at all.

F.E.R. Yes, and the light is the bond.

O.O'B. How do you connect that with 1 Corinthians 10, the fellowship of devils?

F.E.R. That is a thing that you are to be clear of.

O.O'B. What I mean is, I understand just now there was no fellowship outside of the light.

F.E.R. What I meant was, there could be no fellowship according to God. You can get worldly fellowships, such as freemasonry, in the present day. In that day there was the fellowship of devils and of the Jewish altar. But with us it is dependent on the light, and the light is our bond. In 1 Corinthians 10 it is the death of Christ that is the bond of fellowship.

G.W.H. Would you say the light was also the sphere of fellowship?

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F.E.R. I suppose so.

R.S.S. I think you said just now, the bond of fellowship was the light. Did you not say the bond of fellowship was the death of Christ?

F.E.R. But that is the light.

J.P. It shone out there.

W.M. Everything is light for us now.

F.E.R. Yes, the Lord is light. "Ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord". So, too, the death of Christ and the Spirit are light. They are not morally different.

Rem. There is a realm of light that brings in all that is divine.

F.E.R. All is connected with the way in which God has been pleased to declare Himself. Where did God come out in light? In the death of Christ, and that is made effectual in us by the Spirit. It is all light.

W.M. Have you any idea why it says, "walk in the light"?

F.E.R. We must walk in the light of revelation. There is no other light to walk in. If you do not walk in the light of revelation you would walk in Jewish or heathen darkness.

W.M. Does walking indicate the moral activity of the soul?

F.E.R. I do not think so.

L.T.F. It is like abiding in the light.

F.E.R. Yes, but it is a little more than that.

W.B-t. Would you give us a definition of light and darkness?

F.E.R. Well, I think light is the revelation of God, and darkness is ignorance of God. Where people are ignorant of God there is darkness.

Ques. Do you not think that darkness scripturally considered differs from natural darkness? Natural darkness is purely negative, but darkness scripturally considered has elements of positive evil. For instance, the prince of darkness.

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F.E.R. Yes, but then the prince of darkness rules because men are ignorant of God.

Rem. "In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not".

F.E.R. But I think he blinds them because they are in darkness, lest the light should shine for them. If they were not in darkness I do not think he could blind them. It is the fact of man being in darkness that exposes him to the prince of darkness.

J.P. He can only blind the minds of those that believe not. And if faith is really light, not believing is the absence of it.

F.E.R. Not believing exposes not only darkness but also will. "Ye will not". The Lord uses that expression.

J.P. They have closed their eyes.

W.M. And believing is a responsibility.

F.E.R. Yes, on man's part, to believe any testimony of God.

Rem. "Of sin, because they believe not on me".

F.E.R. Yes.

J.P. There is one point you differed from, that is in regard to walk. I think you said, 'walking' was not exactly a moral activity of the soul, but it was a little more than that. What is your idea of it?

F.E.R. I think it is, properly speaking, our conversation down here, and that is in the light. Paul uses the word 'conversation', and that is a very good word.

J.P. You mean conversation in the sense of our whole moral deportment.

F.E.R. Yes. It is in the light. If a man does not walk in the light you have no conclusion to draw, but that that man is still in the darkness of heathendom or judaism, in which God was not known. God was not known in judaism. They had the oracles of God, but He was not known.

Rem. You could hardly make that hard and fast distinction now, because we are neither touching idolatry nor judaism.

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F.E.R. In a certain sense all christendom walks in the light.

Rem. It says, "if we walk in the light, as be is in the light, we have fellowship one with another". That seems to restrict it more than in the broad sense of christendom.

F.E.R. But every person in christendom ought to claim fellowship with you.

Rem. It hardly occurred to me that I ought to claim fellowship with every one in christendom.

F.E.R. You ought to claim every person in christendom as your brother.

G.R. That would be the normal state of things.

F.E.R. That is the ground on which christendom is.

J.P. John is not abnormal, but rather normal.

F.E.R. It is the test of things. If you claimed the fellowship of everybody in christendom I am afraid you would meet with a great many refusals.

W.M. But one has a sort of right to claim it because of their profession.

F.E.R. You get this. "For as many of you as have been baptised into Christ have put on Christ". All christendom has put Christ on, except the Quakers, and a few others.

E.A. Is that putting on the profession of Christ?

Rem. It is, you take them up on their own ground.

F.E.R. Scripture does that. You get that over and over again in the addresses to the churches in the Revelation, and so too in other places. And mark this: christianity has been an enormous public benefit in the world. People have been benefited immensely by the fact of christianity having come in.

Rem. I was very much struck with it, talking with a man who I do not think was a christian, but he admitted he would not care to live in any country where the Bible was not accepted. He recognised in that sense the gain of christianity.

F.E.R. Take China. There was much more light there

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three or four thousand years ago than there was in Western Europe, but there has been very little material advance there. Where has the material advance been in the world? Where christianity is. People were kept under superstition in the time of popery, but when the reformation came in, it brought in material advance and what the world has got in material advance and humanity and invention has been to a very large extent an effect of christianity. The world has gained enormously, and I have no doubt this brings in with it a large amount of responsibility. Christianity meant on the part of God the stay of judgment; naturally on the rejection of Christ judgment would have come in, and the world system would have come to a close, but the introduction of christianity has stayed judgment. Then salvation and the light of christianity came in, and, to a large extent, delivered the mind of man from superstition, and things under which the mind of man was in bondage, and gave an enormous impetus to the advancement of intelligence.

Rem. I suppose that that ought to prepare the minds of men to accept the fact that Christ is Head.

F.E.R. I think so. It entails a great responsibility.

J.P. I see, too, how practically important it is for us to have right thoughts with regard even to the matter of fellowship. It is the one thing that will save us from unscriptural narrowness.

F.E.R. But do you not think it is right to claim fellowship with any one who professes to be a christian?

J.P. It certainly is right.

Ques. Have you always thought that way, Mr. P.?

J.P. No, but I trust I have grown a little. I should hate to be like China, stagnated.

F.E.R. You know, "If we walk in the light, as he is in the light", is not intended for a description of brethren. It is in the sense of children walking in the light of their parents.

G.W.H. Would you say that while we have a right to

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claim fellowship with all people we should be very disappointed when we come to seek it?

F.E.R. Yes.

Rem. I suppose the claim you would make would be of christian fellowship.

F.E.R. Yes. If a man claims to be a christian, you assume that he is walking in the light, and if he is walking in the light we have fellowship one with another.

W.B-t. Does not fellowship suppose the thought of opposition?

F.E.R. I think it supposes the thought of contrariety. And if I went among Jews or heathen I would expect contrariety; Jews refuse Christ as revelation, hence I could not have any fellowship with them.

Rem. The thought of fellowship would only agree with those who were really walking in the light.

F.E.R. It is only practicable there, because the light is the bond. The partnership of half a dozen people would not be rightly maintained unless every member conformed to the articles of partnership. The articles of our partnership are the light, and it is as we understand the light that we are true to the partnership. Fellowship is really partnership.

J.S.A. And the fellowship to which we are called is the fellowship of the Son of God, Jesus Christ our Lord.

F.E.R. Because He is the light. So is the Spirit in a way, but the Spirit is the truth. It is all a question of the light.

W.M. Christian fellowship is dependent on walking in the light.

F.E.R. But that is assumed. Walking in the light is simply christianity. It is not brethren.

Rem. Fellowship, as in the third verse, I suppose would hardly apply to us in full measure.

F.E.R. It is very difficult to say that we have fellowship with the apostles. Where are the apostles?

Rem. Where we would like to be.

F.E.R. Yes, but not exactly in the place where you

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could have fellowship with them. We could scarcely talk about fellowship with them. Fellowship is a present thing in the power of the Spirit. We have fellowship one with another, because we are all actually here.

Rem. That is very clear.

J.P. I suppose to mention some well-known names we might have said we were in fellowship with J.N.D. or C.H.M., but we could not say that now.

F.E.R. We have the benefit of what they gave, but you could not speak of fellowship with them.

W.M. We can continue in their doctrine.

F.E.R. And have fellowship one with another in their doctrine.

J.S.A. As you were saying, they have gone out of the scene to which fellowship applied.

J.P. Then what about the fellowship with the Father and the Son?

F.E.R. You must take account of the expressions "We", "us", and "you". You never would think of disregarding them in any other writing, and you must not disregard them in verses 3 and 4.

W.M. I suppose we are authorised to look on the Father, the Son, and the apostles as having a special bond in connection with christianity at the beginning.

F.E.R. I think the first four verses of the first chapter are introductory, showing the title of John to address us.

G.R. What would be the effect of their addressing us where it is received?

F.E.R. To bring us into the benefit of all that they could communicate.

G.R. Is not that the knowledge of the Father and the Son?

F.E.R. Yes. To bring us into the knowledge of the revelation.

R.S.S. I suppose the fourth verse gives you the effect.

F.E.R. Yes, but he gives you the object in writing, "that ye also may have fellowship with us". "Ye" and "us". "That your joy may be full".

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G.R. That lies in the knowledge of the Father and the Son. That is what they communicated.

F.E.R. They communicated all they knew so that the saints might get the good of it.

Ques. The apostle writing to the Corinthians speaks of them as "Called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ". Would not that in a sense apply to us?

F.E.R. Why not; he does not talk about fellowship with them. He puts it in an abstract way. God has called us to the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord. Not fellowship with His Son. We are called to the common participation of His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, and that is the bond of our fellowship, as the death of Jesus Christ is the bond. It is not fellowship with His death, but the fellowship of His death. It is not fellowship with the Spirit, but fellowship of the Spirit. We "have been all made to drink into one Spirit".

J.P. In that verse be speaks of the Corinthians as "Ye".

J.S.A. Fellowship in the knowledge of the Father and the Son is distinct from fellowship with the Father and the Son.

W.M. In a way everything you have spoken of is covered by the word light.

F.E.R. Because the light has come to us largely by apostolic testimony. The apostles communicated by the Spirit all that they had seen in Christ. They concealed nothing, but communicated all that it might be common to all christians.

W.M. And why does it bring in, "the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin"?

F.E.R. You are still here in the scene of responsibility. Fellowship recognises that you are still in this scene, but there is no imputation. You have a purged conscience. That is what we have practically down here. Very much the same thing as in Hebrews. You have in chapter 8 the ministry of the covenant, and in chapter 9 purgation. Then in chapter 10 you enter the holiest.

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So here we are in the light of the revelation of God, and there is no imputation, and hence you can enter into what is proper to christianity, you can serve God.

W.M. We are in the full light of the abiding value of the blood.

F.E.R. It cleanses from every sin.

J.S.A. And the next section starts on that ground. "I write unto you, ... because your sins are forgiven you".

F.E.R. What we want for approach to God is to be in the light, and with a purged conscience.

G.R. If God had come out to reveal Himself and to impute sin there would have been no fellowship there.

F.E.R. No. And the failure would have broken the whole thing.

W.M. I would like to ask in connection with verse 9, do you think the confession of sins is in principle done once and for ever?

F.E.R. No, I would not say that. It is not put in that way.

W.M. Do you think it is continuous?

F.E.R. I take it to be in connection with God's government.

W.C.R. What do you mean by that?

F.E.R. We are all under the government of God, and if we do not confess our sins may come under discipline. If on the other hand, "we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness". God will not pass them over.

J.P. So the opening of the second chapter clearly involves what you have said. "If any man sin". that is we may sin, but what about the Advocate with the Father?

F.E.R. We are perfectly represented in Christ. So the fact of sinning cannot alter your relation, but while that is true, the service of the Advocate would be to bring any sin upon your conscience so that you confess it, for you may depend upon it if you sin, and allow it to pass, the thing must come between you and God, as a question of

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communion. It is all very well to say that you are forgiven and that the blood cleanses us from sin, but as a matter of fact if you sin and do not confess it, it must come in between you and God.

G.R. So the relationship is not touched, but the enjoyment of it would be.

E.A. In what way are we cleansed from all unrighteousness?

F.E.R. God brings us to self-judgment. I think He cleanses us in that way.

G.R. Leading us to the root of things.

F.E.R. Exactly. If a man sins the root must be there to be judged.

G.R. And there is no forgiveness for that. An act may be forgiven, but the root has to be judged.

W.C.R. Would you give us a word on self-judgment.

F.E.R. You get the word in Hebrews. "Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: for our God is a consuming fire". You have to remember that our God is a consuming fire, hence God will come in in the way of discipline to consume if you do not judge yourself. "For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep". God came in to destroy the body because they did not judge the flesh. It is a very solemn expression that "we have an altar", that is the place of the holy judgment of God, and you must be in accord with that judgment. The altar necessitates self-judgment.

Ques. Does not the apostle Paul express something of that when he says, "Pray for us: for we trust we have a good conscience".?

F.E.R. Yes. He knew nothing in himself to be judged.

J.A. And in self-judgment your mind is in agreement with God's mind about you. You judge what is wrong because God is against it, so that the mind in you is brought wholly in accord with God's mind, and you condemn yourself, and the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses

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you from all sin. You have got into agreement with God about it.

T.A. It shows that the person who has judged himself is in contact with the light.

F.E.R. Yes.

Rem. Would you say a word on the eighth verse: "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us".

F.E.R. I think that is evident.

W.B-t. We have a good deal of what is called holiness doctrine in this country where men say they do not sin at all.

F.E.R. If they talk about that being holiness, it is untrue. It is a question of the provocation to which people are subjected; and it is not holiness, because if I could live without sin that is not holiness.

J.P. That is righteousness.

F.E.R. So far.

W.M. As you were saying, holiness is not by faith.

F.E.R. There is no holiness outside of love.

J.S.A. And the idea of holiness is abhorrence of evil.

F.E.R. If people tell me they can get into love by faith, then I shall believe they get into holiness by faith, but not till then. Because whether it be in God, or in us, holiness lies in love.

Rem. What was in my mind was the distinction between verses 8 and 9, "sin" and "sins".

F.E.R. I think the man who talks about there being no sin in him is an idiot. People are not different from what I am or you. I know very well in myself there is sin.

Rem. We have lots of fools in Chicago then?

J.P. If we have people in this country who say they have no sin, we have this verse 8 also and you cannot improve on that.

F.E.R. But I would not have thought of saying it. If anybody looks at me as being perfectly improved, I would like to be improved off the face of the earth.

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Z. The fact that we fail is the proof that we have sin in us.

W.B-t. The only reason I asked was that we have that class of people to meet.

F.E.R. The idea of holiness by faith is a great delusion. Holiness is where love is, and where there is no love there is no holiness. God's holiness lies in His nature. God is love. So the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit given unto us. If we advance in love in the power of the Spirit, then I have no doubt we get holiness.

W.M. So that as you were saying, even the judgment of God is necessitated by His love.

F.E.R. Yes, it is a holy love. Love that will not tolerate impurity.

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READINGS ON THE FIRST EPISTLE OF JOHN (2)

1 John 2:12 - 29

F.E.R. The apostles were used of God to introduce christianity by doctrine. In one sense Christ was the Apostle, but there were others ordained apostles, and John was one. This chapter is extremely interesting because it brings out the point of sympathy between the apostles and those to whom the apostle wrote.

W.M. Do you mean as to how far they entered into the apprehension of the light?

F.E.R. Whatever might be their progress, there was a point of sympathy between the apostle and them; every class.

W.M. That each grade had taken in something from the apostle.

F.E.R. And hence a point of contact existed between the apostle and each grade. It is important for us to understand from whom we have learnt the truth. There are plenty of people in the christian world -- so-called -- who have an idea they have learned the truth from the church.

J.S.A. In fact, I suppose it is important for us to continue "in the apostles' doctrine".

F.E.R. Quite so. In regard to any question that might be raised we ought to be able to say from whom we have learnt things, "knowing of whom thou hast learned them".

W.M. You are speaking of doctrine now.

F.E.R. Yes. Properly speaking we have learnt directly from the apostles, not by the intervention of the church.

R.S.S. On the principle that "he that knoweth God heareth us".

F.E.R. Quite so. I think God has been pleased to give the apostles a peculiar place in that way.

G.R. They were the only ones who could assert "the

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things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord".

F.E.R. They were the inspired instruments, and communicated with divine authority.

W.B-s. That you get in 2 Timothy 2:2, "The things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses".

F.E.R. Quite so.

G.R. So that there is no development from the apostles' days.

F.E.R. No, we must go back to the apostles. It is interesting in this chapter to observe that the apostle says not only "I write", but "I have written".

L.T.F. What is the point in that?

F.E.R. I think the first indicates the apostle putting himself in present communication with people, and the second, a word left on record. We do not come into the first exactly, but into the second. He could not say to us "I am writing", but "I have written". That is, it is a word left on record.

W.M. That is the reason he repeats?

F.E.R. I think so. We have a word left on record. In saying, "I write" I think he shows a point of sympathy which put him in present communication with the saints. I am writing unto you, fathers, I am writing unto you, young men, I am writing unto you, children, then you get repetition in a sense. "I have written"; that is a word left on record.

J.P. Is it not interesting that whether he says "I write" or "I have written", the substance is the same.

F.E.R. Exactly, and he looked upon himself not as so much more than those to whom he wrote, but to whatever class he spoke as having a point of sympathy. The point with the fathers was they had known Him that is from the beginning; so had the apostles. The point with the young men is, they had overcome the wicked one; so had the apostles. The point with the children is, they knew the Father; so did the apostles. So he could address himself to each class.

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Ques. I suppose the word in verse 12 is common to all?

F.E.R. Yes. That is, they were forgiven, so were the apostles. They were sympathetic in that way with every class.

G.R. It all comes out in a very different way from the dignitaries of the church today. John speaks as one of the saints.

W.M. And those points of identity are the reason that he writes unto them -- "I write unto you ... because".

F.E.R. Exactly. It is in the same way we write to our children. You do not write to your children like you write to your wife. Your point of sympathy with your wife is not that with your children. John could not write to the fathers like he would to the children, but he has a point of sympathy with each.

G.R. The principle would be the same as in Philippians, "whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule".

F.E.R. Exactly. The apostle might know more than all classes put together, but for all that he had not lost the point of contact with each.

W.M. In natural things a babe loses what characterises him as a babe, but in christianity be keeps it.

F.E.R. Yes, it is peculiar. When you are a father you get more, but you do not lose anything.

G.W.H. The distinctions mentioned in these classes are not simply distinctions of age, but moral.

F.E.R. Distinctions of spiritual progress. We begin by knowing God as Father; then we overcome the wicked one; then we know Him that is from the beginning. I think that is the direction things take.

G.W.H. So that a very old man, naturally speaking, may not be more than a babe?

F.E.R. A man converted at 80 years of age is only a babe.

T.A. What is included in that word "known him that is from the beginning"?

F.E.R. That is a great word. If you know Him that is

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from the beginning, you know in a sense nothing else. It is extremely exclusive.

W.M. Everything else is blotted out from your view.

F.E.R. From the very fact of His being the One from the outset.

W.M. I suppose that is the beginning of the divine life.

F.E.R. I suppose it is the beginning of the universe. He is the beginning of the creation of God, and is from the outset.

G.R. Would you not say that that is the only thing that delivers and keeps from the world, and so in that sense the young men had not got to it?

F.E.R. Quite so. There is an outset, from which God works out everything, and Christ is from that outset. He is the beginning, and from the beginning.

G.R. I was thinking of the verse in chapter 5, "Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?" He must be the beginning. Nothing before Him.

J.P. I suppose the young men, though they had judged the wicked one, had not judged the world.

F.E.R. That comes out afterwards.

W.M. Do you think verse 12 brings them all in as under the benefits of the new covenant?

F.E.R. Yes, I think so. "Their sins and iniquities will I remember no more".

Ques. No question of class in that, is there?

F.E.R. Oh, no.

W.M. They have all forgiveness and the Spirit.

F.E.R. The apostle takes them up on that ground. Even the babes had the unction, and all were forgiven for His name's sake.

J.S.A. That is the starting point of christianity. It shows how little it is known in that there are many who pass for believers who have not the knowledge of the Father, as we speak.

W.B-t. Would you say a little more about "him that is

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from the beginning" because in a sense we all know the Lord.

F.E.R. The principle of the writings of John, especially the gospel, is that John in a way ignores everything that preceded. Christ is the point of departure. It presents Christ more absolutely.

G.R. Not the Old Testament scriptures?

F.E.R. He does not take up the link with the old like the other gospels; his point of departure is Christ; and really the point of departure for God is Christ.

J.P. I suppose that would account, in a way, for the manner in which the gospel and the epistle open, "In the beginning was the Word" and "That which was from the beginning".

T.A. What comes in in the first verse, "That which was from the beginning", does it take Him in from the time Christ came down here to earth, or does it go so far as placing Him before things were created?

F.E.R. That is not the idea. The expression "from the beginning", (Acts 26:5), indicates the outset of the particular thing of which the speaker is speaking. For instance, you get "the devil sinneth from the beginning". That must mean from the outset of sin. So in reconciliation, Christ is from the outset. "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses". So, too, in regard to life, which is a more practical thought. In John's gospel, Christ says, "I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly". There was no having life in that way till Christ came. So if you take up the subject of life, Christ is from the outset, in regard to all men. He is also the beginning of God's creation.

R.S.S. So that it is a moral thought rather than a point of time?

F.E.R. Yes.

W.B-t. Would you say the characteristic point connected with the fathers is, "known him that is from the beginning"?

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F.E.R. I think so.

G.R. Does it not give very great force in that there is no word of warning or exhortation to the fathers? They are, so to speak, safe.

F.E.R. Yes.

W.B-s. I suppose there could not be any progress till the negative side is settled, that is, sins forgiven?

F.E.R. Oh, no. Being under the new covenant we have divine teaching, and forgiveness of sins.

W.M. The young men seem to be the only class spoken of as having gone through a conflict.

F.E.R. Yes, they had overcome the wicked one. That is the word which John has left on record for us, "ye are strong, and the word of God", that is the testimony, "abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one".

W.M. Does that mean that the young men are the only class in whom the testimony of God is to be looked for?

F.E.R. It is there you expect to find it maintained. You find vigour and energy, and the word of God abides in them, that is, the testimony of God continues in them, and they have overcome the wicked one; that is, in the sense of antichristian doctrine. The young men are zealous of what is right in the way of doctrine.

W.M. The testimony of God abides in the young men; does that mean it is promulgated by the young men, not by babes?

F.E.R. I think so. It is in those who are strong that the testimony of God abides.

Ques. In what way are the young men in danger of the world?

F.E.R. The world is so extremely subtle. I think I have seen that.

W.M. You mean you have seen young men active in the truth, and yet there has been departure.

F.E.R. Yes, active and sound in doctrine and yet sooner or later succumbing to the world in some of the subtle influences, the present course of things.

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Rem. It would be, I judge, in connection with the religious world somewhat.

F.E.R. Not always. They often marry and that brings in some kind of worldly influence, and they keep up an establishment, if they have means, and get links in society. The world comes in in a very subtle way.

Rem. A flourishing business.

F.E.R. The world does not take people quite by storm, but it gets hold of people by subtlety.

Rem. And sometimes because business does not flourish.

F.E.R. Yes, but people flourish sometimes, even where business does not flourish. Ample means are a great snare to most people down here. The man best off from a christian point of view is the poor man. Most people would hardly think so, but if you take it all round it is so.

W.B-s. He has not that which gratifies his desires.

F.E.R. If he is a simple-minded man having food and raiment, he has, after all, true riches. He is well off if he is content, "Piety with contentment is great gain". He is, in a sense, better off than a wealthy man, because a wealthy man is much more exposed. It is an old saying of a very well-known brother that the higher you are up in the social scale, the nearer you are to the god of this world; the god of this world is at the top of this world.

Rem. I suppose the Lord's word comes in there, "How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God".

F.E.R. Quite so. They have so much opportunity of taking up advantages here. Ease and comforts and luxuries are material advantages, and all these things have to be warred against, as the apostle Peter says.

Rem. The young man went away sorrowful, because he was very rich.

F.E.R. Yes. It is a great point to apprehend that the world is looked at sometimes, not simply as to the people in it, but as a great moral system, and the principles of that great moral -- or immoral -- system are the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes and the pride of life.

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Rem. And these are the same principles that brought in the ruin in the garden of Eden.

F.E.R. They came in in germ there. They have become greatly developed since.

W.M. The fathers are looked upon as being outside that sphere altogether.

F.E.R. I think so.

W.B-s. Is that what characterises christians today more than anything -- worldliness?

F.E.R. They sanction it. Christianity has become entangled with the world, and hence people go with things that are spoken of here as the world, and they call them justifiable. A great many christians do not think it at all wrong to gratify the lust of the eyes and the pride of life. They do not go in for gross things, but they give place to these things.

W.M. Do you think the church has been captured by Babylon? The Lord says, "Woe unto the world because of offences", and the offence came and the church fell captive into it.

Rem. Really a repetition of what was before. Babylon took Jerusalem captive.

G.W.H. I suppose there has been a sort of amalgamation between the world and the church?

F.E.R. You see it in the grossest way in Rome. Rome is Babylon. It took the church captive. Rome never was truly christian. It is a continuation of heathenism. The Roman Emperor was what is called "Pontifex Maximus", and we see a continuation of that in the pope. Popery is not christianity in anything but name, but it brought in, in connection with Rome, all these things -- the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the pride of life.

G.W.H. Their proud boast was for a while that the State and Church went hand in hand.

F.E.R. That is the Church of England. That is not popery. Popery assumed to rule over the kings of the earth.

W.B-s. Is it not rather a delicate point as to bringing children up, so far as worldly ambition goes?

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F.E.R. That brings in a great deal of difficulty and exercise, but it is a great point in regard to all that we are able to judge of things. We want ability to see what is of God and what is not of God, for things are entangled in this world; but I think we can judge in a sense what the lust of the flesh means, and the lust of the eyes and the pride of life; and the verdict of the apostle is that it is not of the Father, but of the world, and the reason of it is simple, for love is of the Father, and lust, which is really self-gratification, is the opposite of that. There will be no scope for it in the world to come. All the pleasant pictures will come to nothing, and I doubt if people will find any gratification in them.

Ques. It takes exercise to discern between good and evil. I mean doctrinally we may assent to the things of which you speak, but when it comes to the actual test, will works, and we are not willing sometimes to discern. Is that where the discipline of God comes in?

F.E.R. I suppose so.

G.W.H. I suppose that is why it says we are to have our senses exercised to discern both good and evil?

F.E.R. I think so; you may depend upon it as to the young men that, though they have overcome the wicked one, the danger with them is the world. I have noticed that, and many others have, too.

J.S.A. How do you understand overcoming the wicked one?

F.E.R. In point of antichristian doctrine. The babes had not done that. They were exposed to that.

G.W.H. I suppose the way one is separated from the world is by withdrawing from the present course of things?

F.E.R. "Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?" Our faith gives us the victory. But you want to continue in the faith and not to be moved away from the hope.

Rein. Is that what Paul refers to in Ephesians, when he says, "Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the

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knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ". That would be a father.

F.E.R. I think so.

W.M. I suppose believing on the Son of God would be the light of another world altogether.

F.E.R. It is the One that is from the beginning.

Ques. Do I understand you to say that ministry is confined to the second class -- the young men?

F.E.R. I would not like to say that, but it remains true that what marks the young men is that they are strong, and the word of God abideth in them, and they have overcome the wicked one. It is among the young men you find the vigour and energy. What you find with the fathers is more experience and knowledge.

Ques. The question in my mind was, is Satan against the Lord's servants more than any other class?

F.E.R. I think he is very much against the young men to capture them. He begins, in regard to the babes, to unsettle them in respect of the truth. There is plenty of that in this country, I think.

Ques. Does John put the promise of eternal life over against the seduction that there is in the world? He says, "And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life. These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you".

F.E.R. But that follows on continuing in the Father and the Son. "Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son and in the Father. And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life".

O.O'B. That is, I understand you to say, continuing in the Father and the Son is eternal life.

F.E.R. The apostle seems to connect the two things here.

O.O'B. Not any other part of the verse?

F.E.R. If that continue in you, ye shall also continue.

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Then he adds, "This is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life". I should connect that with continuing in the Son and in Father.

W.M. That is in the sense of attachment?

F.E.R. Yes, and light.

G.R. Would you connect it with John 17:3?

F.E.R. Quite so. You continue in the light of it.

O.O'B. Did I understand you to say that that was the same as in John 17:3?

F.E.R. It is very near to it.

J.A. Might we say there is no change in the character of eternal life? That it is always of one order?

F.E.R. I think so.

W.M. Is it like love, in the knowledge of divine Persons?

F.E.R. Evidently it is that for us, for we have nothing outside of the sphere of knowledge.

W.M. So that eternal life is in the form of knowledge now?

F.E.R. It must be. Everything is in the form of knowledge.

T.A. Does not the Holy Spirit make it good in us so that we can enjoy it?

F.E.R. Yes, but in the way of knowledge.

Ques. Is that what we get here, we "have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things"?

R.S.S. But it is conscious knowledge.

F.E.R. Not always. You could not speak of knowing the Father and the Son exactly as conscious knowledge. It is objective knowledge.

J.P. It is not the word for conscious knowledge.

F.E.R. And it would not apply quite.

Ques. Is the unction the truth itself?

F.E.R. No. It is the anointing, and that is the Spirit, and the Holy One I take to be Christ.

W.M. Eternal life itself is an objective thought.

F.E.R. I think so, although in a sense it must become subjective. For instance, take the thought of air. It is objective, because you come into it when you are born,

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and therefore you can speak of it as being objective, but then you breathe it through your lungs and it becomes subjective.

W.M. You appropriate the conditions into which you come.

F.E.R. Yes. So, too, in regard of rule. You come into rule when you are born, but it not only affects your body without, but within. So, too, in regard of light.

W.M. So the conditions of life are all objective, but they become subjective by your appropriation of them.

Rem. You were saying that we learn from the apostles, and I would judge the Spirit is the capacity.

F.E.R. The great point is that you do not learn from man, what we learn is by the Spirit. It is a point of the greatest moment, "Ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things". We want to take a great deal more account of the Spirit of God. If people gave more place to Him they would learn more quickly.

A.Q.R. All real teaching is by the Spirit?

F.E.R. So the apostle says, "ye need not that any man teach you". I think the Spirit as teacher is the great point.

Rem. I suppose we require the Scriptures to get the apostles' doctrine.

F.E.R. The apostle says, "I have written". I have left a word on record for you, but the one who tells them that says "the ... anointing teacheth you". His object was to encourage the saints to take account of the anointing. In having the Spirit you have the entire truth, because the Spirit is the truth. The point in connection with it is to cultivate by the Spirit living relations with God, and it is in that way we really get intelligence.

O.O'B. I wish you would tell us a little more about the subjective side of eternal life in that way. If we had had that long ago it would have brushed away many difficulties.

F.E.R. We will have it when we come to it.

J.N.H. Would you say a word about how we get the good of the Spirit?

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F.E.R. I think the first thing is self-judgment; you have to remember that the Spirit is the Holy Spirit, hence the moment you take account of the Spirit you must of necessity walk in self-judgment. "Being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness". And then the way the Spirit would work would be to bring us under the influence of divine love. I do not think the Spirit would lead us to live on meetings nor even to be always reading the Scriptures. I have known people who have read Scripture too much and others who have gone too much to meetings. All that can be overdone. The Spirit has a different way to take in regard to people. There cannot be any doubt that the Spirit brings the believer under the influence of divine love, and moulds him in that way. I think we want more meditation and prayer. Get alone in your chamber.

W.M. So that the Spirit of truth, not the letter, may have His way with us.

F.E.R. The letter will come in in its way. You do not get the understanding of the letter by studying the letter.

W.M. You understand the letter by the Spirit.

F.E.R. And you understand the letter when you are prepared for it. Then everything comes simply in its place.

J.S.A. I think it is an important expression, He is "the Spirit of truth", and things must be absolutely real, that is as they are.

F.E.R. Exactly. It is the Spirit of God in a man that really gives him a sense of things as they are.

W.M. So the Spirit of God puts every man on his own particular line.

G.R. In regard to your expression as to the necessity of self-judgment I was thinking of the apostle Paul himself, who, though such a wonderful vessel of the Spirit said of himself, I am less than the least of all saints.

F.E.R. Yes, and he says, "herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void of offence toward God,

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and toward men". I do not know how far we are always exercised in that way.

W.M. Is not self-judgment a characteristic of the spiritual man?

F.E.R. Yes. It is the first necessity of the Spirit being there. The Spirit descended on Christ like a dove, but on the disciples in the Acts like cloven tongues of fire.

Ques. "If we live by the Spirit, let us walk also by the Spirit". Is the first abstract and the other practical?

F.E.R. If you do not live by the Spirit you do not live at all.

E.A. What is the meaning of the passage you have just quoted about the Spirit coming upon the disciples like cloven tongues of fire?

F.E.R. I think it indicates the necessity of self-judgment where the Spirit was. The fire has reference to self-judgment. It did not come upon Christ in that sense.

G.R. Would not that passage in Galatians come in, the Spirit resists the flesh? The flesh would always seek self-importance.

G.F.W. What do you mean by going too much to meetings?

F.E.R. I do not think people can live on ministry or meetings.

W.M. You require some sunshine as well as rain.

F.E.R. Exactly. To be brought under the influence of divine love in Christ is the first essential.

E.A. Is there not another passage where it says, "he shall baptise you with the Holy Spirit and fire"? What is the fire there?

F.E.R. I am not sure whether it is not distinct from the Spirit. Whether it may not refer to what was coming on the ungodly part, but I could not say. "Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire".

W.M. It brings in the Spirit first and then judgment afterwards.

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F.E.R. It looks a little like it.

J.P. And yet it does not read like two baptisms.

F.E.R. But it is He that will do it. I think it refers to the sifting to which the nation was about to be subjected. That the coming in of Christ would subject the nation to that.

J.P. So that in principle that is true of each individual who receives the Holy Spirit; it necessitates self-judgment.

F.E.R. I see it in the expression we were referring to this morning, "We have an altar". You are brought into contact with the altar. What I understand by an altar is the place of God's holy judgment. Abraham had an altar and so too Isaac and Jacob. It was a holy place, a place of communion, but then it was a place of God's holy judgment.

J.P. We have been impressed with it in the passage in Ephesians, "And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed".

F.E.R. Quite so.

G.R. I was going to ask if Nadab and Abihu would be a solemn example of neglecting it, "I will be sanctified in them that come nigh me".

F.E.R. Quite so. They were solemn witnesses to the holiness of God.

W.M. Does it not seem in this passage that all things are brought to an issue? Antichrist had gone out already.

F.E.R. Yes.

W.M. The real antichrist had not yet appeared, but he might at any moment.

Rem. But what we have today is only a further growth on what was there in the apostles' day.

F.E.R. So the apostle says, the mystery of lawlessness already works. Lawlessness had come into the bosom of christianity.

W.M. The Jew has already refused Christ, but the gentile has not yet publicly. Are not the Jew and the gentile combined here, as it were? The one is the liar and the other the antichrist.

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F.E.R. Yes, but the same person may deny the Father and the Son, and that Jesus is Christ. He is a liar and an antichrist.

W.B-s. Why is there more attention given to the young men and the children than to the fathers?

F.E.R. Because the apostle felt that there was more guarantee for the fathers. They had known Him that is from the beginning. On the other hand, in regard to the young men and the children, there were special dangers to which they were exposed, so the apostle has left a word on record for us. We might all take into account the especial care the apostle had for us, whether we are young men or babes. The greater part of us here are perhaps young men and, therefore, we may very well take to heart what the apostle addresses to us.

Ques. What is the sense of 'abiding' in Him, spoken of three times in this chapter?

F.E.R. It is the way in which you escape from lawlessness.

W.M. The earth escapes being lawless by abiding in the sun.

F.E.R. As long as we are down here we are not out of the scene of responsibility. Responsibility will go on as long as we are here and Christ is absent.

W.M. And with us everything is so far provisional, not final.

F.E.R. I have no doubt if we are kept by the Spirit of God we do abide in Him, but we have responsibility to abide in Him.

Rem. You get abiding in connection with responsibility in that scripture, "And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming".

F.E.R. You get two things in Scripture, "who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation", but then in another passage, "If ye continue in the faith". Both things are true. Saints are divinely kept, and yet, on the other hand, there is responsibility to continue in the

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faith. I think we ought to recognise the two things. What I know about myself is that if I were not kept I would not continue in the faith, but at the same time I accept my responsibility to continue in the faith, and not to be moved away from the hope.

G.R. So in Jude it says, "Keep yourselves in the love of God".

F.E.R. But you are kept in the love of God. Both are true.

R.S.S. It is rather remarkable. It says that we may not be ashamed. It is not ye.

F.E.R. No, it is the apostles.

Ques. Is that the negative side to Paul's positive, that the Thessalonians were his joy and rejoicing?

F.E.R. Exactly, if there were a defection on the part of the saints it would make the apostles ashamed at the coming of the Lord.

W.M. Because the saints were looked on as the apostle's work.

G.W.H. He would be ashamed because that he had laboured in vain.

F.E.R. Exactly.

R.S.S. Has that any present application in the way of care for one another's state?

F.E.R. I think we want to give heed to the apostolic charge to the young men and the children. It very often happens in a church system that the bishop gives a charge to the clergy, and they have to give heed to the bishop's charge. We have a greater than a bishop -- we have the apostle, and we do well to take heed to his charge. He says, "I have written". Above all we ought to give place to the Spirit. I think the weakness among us is in the allowance of things that are not of the Spirit of God. This comes out in many ways, in preaching and service, and very often worship; allowance is given to what is not of the Spirit of God.

G.R. And so in our social intercourse, so that we do not corrupt one another.

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F.E.R. I think so. I have often felt ashamed in that sense. We ought to be a benefit to one another.

Ques. Is that the meaning of sowing to the flesh and reaping corruption?

F.E.R. You do not want to sow to your own flesh nor to anybody else's flesh.

W.B-s. In what sense would it be quenching the Spirit?

F.E.R. That is more in the meeting, imposing silence on people as is done in the churches, where there is much gift that is hindered.

J.P. That may come in among us.

F.E.R. Very much.

W.B-s. I was thinking of it in that way.

F.E.R. We do not generally quench people. It is the other way usually. We are well pleased to see any little gift developed.

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THIRST AND SUPPLY

Psalm 42; Revelation 21:6; 1 John 5:18 - 20

I desire to dwell for a moment on the contrast between the Old Testament and the New. The one, to a large extent, may be called a book of demand, and the other a book of supply. That is, what is constantly looked for and panted after in the Old Testament, is found in the New. In the Old Testament we see the desire for Christ and salvation, but in the New Testament the desire has come. The word of God is not a compilation of moral sentiments. The prophecies in the Old Testament look on to the Kingdom, and in the New the Kingdom has come. I am quite alive to the fact that Christ has not yet come in a public way in the glory of the kingdom, but there remains the great fact on which christianity is based, that is, Christ is come. I take this from the passage I have read, that is, "the Son of God has come". Not in glory yet, but He has come and has given us an understanding. In a world of darkness and of dearth, everything must have been in the nature of desire till Christ came; now, that Christ has come, everyone that is of God ought to be marked by satisfaction, no longer by thirst and desire, and we cannot give any greater proof of the reality of our christianity than in the fact that our satisfaction is evident and apparent. This is not always the case. Often, to our shame, we find ourselves craving after one thing and another.

I take up now two or three thoughts suggested by the scriptures before us. I dare say most of you are acquainted with the fact that the Psalms are divided into five books, and each book has its own particular line. This psalm is the introduction to the second book. The second book has this character. It looks at Israel as scattered, and away from their own land, and to a large extent under pressure, but at the same time there are genuine desires

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after God. The same thing may be true now in any one in whom God has been pleased to work by His Spirit. The effect of a person being born again is not exactly that that person is brought into life, but that right desires are awakened in that person. That person's eyes are opened to a true apprehension of the character of things around, and that there is nothing in them which can satisfy the heart of man, and hence desires are awakened after God. So the same kind of experience which is depicted in the early part of the Psalms may occur in a person at the present day. A great many people go to the Psalms because they find in the Psalms that expression which they want. We are all much attached to the Psalms. There is hardly one of us but is in the habit of referring to them. We find a great deal in them which meets our state of mind, and for a great many christians in the world at the present time, what comes out in the early part of the Psalms is more or less true. They thirst after God. If we thirst after God it is proof that we have not found God. Evidently thirst is not satisfaction. They are in contrast. In this Psalm we get thirst and in the New Testament we get thirst recognised, but the point there is that there is a perfect answer to thirst, "And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely".

There is another point in the Psalms. That is what I dare say people are often exposed to in the present time, the taunt of the enemy. "My tears have been my meat day and night, while they continually say unto me, Where is thy God?" I should suppose that is an experience to which a great many have been subjected. They thirst after God and could not say they have found God, and in that way they become exposed to the taunt of the enemy, "Where is thy God?" People say, 'What are you better off for all your thirsting after God?' "Where is thy God?" 'Show me something, some proof of it'. I can understand a wanton infidel mind saying to people, "Where is thy God?" 'You cannot show me anything at all of your

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God? You are not better off apparently than others, because you have not got satisfaction, and yet you cannot take your part in the interests and pleasures of the world'. That is a poor condition to be in, yet it describes the condition of not a few in christendom; the Spirit of God has begun to work in them, they are born again, and desires after God are awakened, and yet they have not come to the point of satisfaction.

There is another point, "When I remember these things, I pour out my soul in me: for I had gone with the multitude, I went with them to the house of God, with the voice of joy and praise, with a multitude that kept holy day". Now that verse to my mind shows a disposition to refer to the past. I have known people who lived on remembrances and I doubt if remembrances are very much to live upon. In natural things people do not live on remembrances, but on the present, and in the circumstances which are. People who live on remembrances are not generally marked by much brightness. They think of the times which have been, that they were much better than the times which are, and that is not much food for the soul. All these psalms have been written in view of the future, and the experiences through which the people of God, that is Israel, will pass in time to come; I take them up because so much that is presented in the Psalms expresses what is not uncommon among people in the present day. If there were not a work of God I do not think any part of this psalm would apply, because no soul naturally pants after God. There may be an uneasy conscience sometimes, but if there be a thirst after God it is the proof that the Spirit of God has awakened desires which are according to God, and which nothing whatever but the knowledge of God can satisfy. I say one word more in regard to Israel, God will appear for them, and they will be blessed with temporal blessings in earthly places, but that will not satisfy them. Nothing will content them but the knowledge of God. Hence it says in connection

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with the new covenant, "for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more". The first and chief of all the blessings which the Deliverer will bring to Israel will be the knowledge of God in the sovereignty of mercy. God will crown the year with fatness for them, and they will be abundantly blessed with peace, but chief and first of all their blessings will be the knowledge of God in Christ, that is, in the sovereignty of mercy.

Now I want to present the contrast to those things which christianity brings to us. I read Revelation 21:6, "And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely". Again Revelation 22:16, 17, "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely". I want to enlarge on the thought which I put out a few moments ago, that the New Testament furnishes the supply. The spirit of the New Testament is Christ. The Son of God has come, and in the coming of the Son of God one of the first things spoken of is the satisfaction of man's heart by the knowledge of God. That is what the Lord Jesus proposed in John 4 to the woman at the well of Sychar. He says, "If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water". That is, the Lord Jesus proposed to give to one who was athirst living water. Now we cannot attach too much importance to the truth that Christ has come in as the Head and centre of the moral universe. When you talk to people about a moral universe they scarcely understand what you mean. They know

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what a physical universe means, but God has before Him a moral universe according to His pleasure, of which Christ is the centre and the Sun, and which in due time God will set forth in a public way. When God, as it were, breaks through the heavens, and appears in glory, He will set forth a moral universe in perfect blessing, I cannot conceive any consideration more important for us to take into account. Now what will, to a large extent, bring that moral universe to pass, is that Christ is the giver of living water. He is able to minister to the thirst of man so that man should find satisfaction in the knowledge of God. That is the capability of Christ, and I will tell you how it comes to pass. Now to begin with, Christ must be of necessity both God and Man, for it must be clear to any one of the least judgment that if He were not divine He could not communicate living water. The five wise virgins could not communicate oil to the foolish virgins. They had to say to them, "go ... to them that sell, and buy for yourselves".

Supposing a man have living water for himself, he cannot communicate living water to another. If he could do that he would be as great as God, and the One who could speak of giving living water must of necessity Himself be divine, the Son of God. But in order that He should communicate living water He must of necessity be also Man, because only on one ground could living water be communicated to man, and that is of redemption. All of us, Israel, and we too, were under liabilities which had come upon us as the effect of sin. We were all under curse and death, and if they lay upon man, they must of necessity be discharged in a man, and therefore the Son of God became Man that He might take up these liabilities and discharge them, in other words, accomplish redemption, so that He might impart living water to those who are athirst.

I have attempted to bring before you what I should suppose are first principles in connection with Christ. Of necessity He must be God to impart the Spirit, and of

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necessity Man to accomplish redemption. It would be impossible for God to impart His Spirit to men under liabilities to Himself. But the liabilities have been taken up, redemption has been accomplished, Christ has been raised in the blood of the everlasting covenant. He has been exalted to the right hand of God to fill all things, and has communicated the gift of the Spirit, that is, living water. It is a good thing to contemplate Christ as ascended up far above all heavens to fill all things. God has made known to us the mystery of His will to head up in one all things in Christ. Christ is the centre and Sun. Redemption has been accomplished, Christ is exalted, the Spirit has been given, and the Lord Jesus speaks in this way, "I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely". The only condition for people to receive the water of life freely is thirst. I have attempted to point out how it is there is thirst. I do not believe any man ever thirsted after God except by the work of the Spirit of God. Jesus says, "I am the root and the offspring", not only the Offspring, but the Root of David. In that sense He is Head of all.

Now I come to the consequence of that. If you have living water you do not thirst, and how do you think that is? You can understand how natural water quenches thirst. How is it living water quenches thirst? Living water in the believer is the witness to God. It is really God in the believer, and the work of the Spirit is to shed abroad in the heart the love of God, and if you have the love of God shed abroad in your heart you could very well say, I do not thirst. What have you to thirst for? What can you have more than the love of God? You could not turn to God and say, 'I thirst', for God would rebuke you and say, 'I have given you of My Spirit, and the knowledge of My love, and if you are not content with that there is no more that I can give you'. God begins with the greatest gift, and if you are not content with the greatest gift you will not be content with any gift short of that. There is nothing that God could give to compare with

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what God has given. I do not know if you remember a line in the hymn we sang,

Lord, 'tis enough, we ask no more.

God can communicate nothing more than that which Christ has communicated to the one that is athirst, and it is a reproach to any one of us if we say we thirst. I do not think we can take up the language of the Psalms, "My soul thirsteth for the living God", for the reason we have found the living God; He has given to us His Spirit that He might be known to us and that, instead of thirsting, our hearts might be filled with constant and unfailing satisfaction. I have no doubt we hinder the Spirit a good bit, but as to the principle of things I should hope that it is true that we have received the Spirit of God. So we have nothing to ask for. We refer to God in the detail of life because we see the virtue of piety and of bringing God into all our concerns, but in going before God we have very little to ask for, for He has given us all that He could give. God gave His Son for us, and He has given His Spirit to be in us, so that we might have all that which love has purposed.

Now I come again to the taunt of the enemy, and will show how that is answered. If you will read 1 John 5:18 - 20, "We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness. And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life".

We get these three remarkable verses which refer to what one may call the consciousness of the christian, and they furnish an answer to every possible taunt that can be levelled against the believer. The first two bring before us three important points, that, properly speaking, you are clear of sin, you are free from the wicked one, and at the same time that you have judged the world. The first

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statement is what I may call abstract; that is, the one begotten of God does not sin. And he that is begotten of God keepeth himself and the wicked one toucheth him not. Now, it says at the beginning of the verse, 'We are conscious'. I can look abstractly at the one begotten of God and can say in regard to him that he does not sin. And I will tell you why, because he has been brought into attachment to Christ. He abides in Christ, which is a proof of his being begotten of God, and he that abides in Him sinneth not. He recognises what I have been speaking of, that is, the moral universe, and Christ as the centre and abiding in Christ he does God's will, and in doing God's will he does not practise sin. It does not say but what he may fail, that is contemplated in the early part of the epistle, but as to the practice that is habitual, he that is begotten of God does not sin; and there is another point, and that is this, "he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not". It is a wonderful thing that there are those in the world who are no longer dominated by the wicked one. That is what is contemplated in these verses. Take Mary of Bethany; she was born of God, undoubtedly. Do you think she practised sin? I am sure she abode in Christ. Do you think the wicked one touched such an one as that? She kept herself. I can understand that, as occurred in the early part of the Acts of the Apostles, the wicked one might stir people up against the saints, and the saints might be persecuted, and, like Stephen, be put to death, but the wicked one did not touch them. Stephen was not touched morally by the wicked one. Men might stone him, but the wicked one did not touch him. He was born of God and he did not sin. Sin was not his practice, and the wicked one did not touch him. If the wicked one touches us the effect of his touch is to turn us in the direction of apostasy. You get the touch of the wicked one in the case of Simon Magus. But the one that is begotten of God keeps himself; he does not practise sin, for it is by the practice of sin we expose ourselves to the wicked one. It is a great

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thing to be free from the power of sin, and from the touch of the wicked one.

But now we come to another statement, and that is not exactly abstract. It says, "We know (conscious) that we are of God". It is not simply that the one born of God does not sin, and keeps himself and the wicked one touches him not, but we are conscious that our origin is of God. Supposing that you love God and you know that God loves you, what must be your origin? Do you think you ever loved God naturally? I think very much to the contrary.

So far as I know in regard to myself it was far more natural to hate God and one another. If you love God and you know that God loves you, it is the proof and evidence that you are of God.

I just call your attention to Romans 8:28, "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose". What made me refer to it is that the moment the Spirit of God comes to the point "to them that love God", immediately He adds "to them who are the called according to his purpose". Hence the fact that we love God is the proof that we are of God. Now we are conscious that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in the wicked one, so that we are delivered from the domination of evil. If that be the case how can the taunts of the ungodly move you? You are conscious that you are of God. We are not thirsting after God, that has been met by the love of God, the living water, and now we are conscious that we are of God. God is the source, so to speak, of our moral being, and, on the other hand, the whole world lieth in the wicked one. Every consideration is taken up, sin and the wicked one and the world. The world is judged, the whole world lieth in the wicked one, but the wicked one does not touch the one begotten of God.

Now we come to a point still further, that is, 'We are conscious that the Son of God is come'. I have spoken already in regard to that. It is the introduction of light.

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Light has come in. He has come to reveal God to us. The Son of God came forth to that end. "The only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him". But more, He "hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true". No one can know God naturally. A man has to get into a certain condition of understanding and habit of mind in order to understand philosophy. The same is true of science. You may not have the training of mind to enter into them. Well, now, what we have, and I am sure we have it only in one way, and that is by the Spirit of God, is the understanding to know Him that is true. I am confident that the understanding of man, accustomed as it is to this world and the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the pride of life, can never take in God. It cannot estimate nor appreciate God, but the Son of God is come. He has revealed God to us and has given us an understanding that we may know God. The revelation of God would be of very little account to us if we had not understanding, but He has given us the understanding that we may know Him that is true. We have been furnished. God is true. In Him is no darkness, and now we have an understanding that we may know Him that is true, and we are in Hint that is true, in His Son, Jesus Christ. It appears to me that this is the crowning point. It is greater than the previous ones. It is no small matter to be set free from the domination of sin, to be able to keep ourselves so that the wicked one does not touch us, and to have formed a judgment in regard to the world and ourselves. But the crown is that the Son of God is come and has given us an understanding.

Now the effect of that is to give us confidence of heart in God, the heart can confide in God for God is true, and we have an understanding to know Him. You no longer thirst after God, you do not feel the taunt of the enemy and you do not live on remembrances. The point is to live in the present and in the conditions which God has appointed. God has been pleased to appoint conditions

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in which you can live, so that we can be in the present without thirsting, with unbounded satisfaction in the knowledge of the One spoken of in the Psalms as the living God. The living God is a blessed reality to us, known to us, confided in. In Him we are content and satisfied, and more than satisfied.

One word more. It is a great point to take advantage of our privilege, to use it abundantly in the way of intercourse with God. God does not reject your advances, because they are by the Spirit of God, and your wisdom is to take advantage of what the Son of God has given to us, and to cultivate diligently the one thing that is of vital moment, and that by which we are formed practically; not to thirst or to pant after God, but knowing Him that is true and that we are in Him that is true, to use our liberty of access.

I have found, going through life, that it is wisdom to cultivate the acquaintance of those who are better than yourself. Where you find a man keeping company with those inferior morally or socially to himself, that man gets degraded. He drops down. That is the case in the world. It is a great thing to cultivate intercourse with fellow-christians. I do not mean social intercourse, but christian intercourse. It is much more important to cultivate intercourse with the living God Himself.

May God give us grace that we may not be lacking in diligence in that direction.

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READINGS ON THE FIRST EPISTLE OF JOHN (3)

1 John 2:29; 3: 1 - 24

W.M. Is doing righteousness presented here as the test as to whether one is born of Him or not?

F.E.R. Yes.

O.O'B. What is the difference between born of Him, or born of God, in the epistle of John, and born again in the third chapter of the gospel of John?

F.E.R. I think being born of God supposes that you are a partaker of His nature. Being "born again" does not go so far as that, but is connected with the ability to see. "Except a man be born again, he cannot see". In one born of God, as John says, His seed abides, that is His nature. It is the divine nature, of which one is partaker.

O.O'B. Is it the same as in the epistle of Peter?

F.E.R. In Peter it is connected with unfeigned love of the brethren. "Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth ... unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible". That again is the divine nature.

R.S.S. Is it much the same in Peter as in the epistle of John?

F.E.R. I think so, the reason is intelligible, both John and Peter are addressing themselves to christians. The Lord is not doing that in John 3. He is addressing Himself to a Jew. The proper connection of new birth in Scripture is with the Jew, as in Ezekiel; the Lord brings out what was necessary for a Jew, he could not see the kingdom of God without being born again, but the Lord does not go beyond the kingdom of God, and that cannot be identical with what John is writing of to christians.

R.S.S. In the fourth chapter there is a striking statement where it says, he "that loveth is born of God".

F.E.R. Yes. I think being born of God is descriptive of

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christians; they are children of God, partakers of God's nature by the Spirit.

J.S.A. "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God".

J.P. Does not the expression "born of God" presuppose the revelation of God in Christ, and that revelation made good in the soul by the work of the Spirit of God?

F.E.R. I think so.

Ques. "Born of water and of the Spirit", is that the same thing, being a little advance on being born again?

F.E.R. Yes, because it is the condition of entering. First is seeing, then entering.

O.O'B. My difficulty has been in connection with he that "believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God". In connection with the passage in Acts 2, they believed that Jesus was the Christ, did they not?

F.E.R. Then they were born of God.

O.O'B. I thought I understood you that in John's epistle they had forgiveness and the Spirit.

F.E.R. The point in Acts was that they should receive the gift of the Spirit, and they did, then they are looked upon as being born of God.

O.O'B. Did they not believe that Jesus was the Christ before they got the Spirit?

F.E.R. Yes. Jesus being the Christ was what was presented for their faith, and they believed, and were baptised for the forgiveness of sins, and received the gift of the Spirit; but you could not have said of them they were born of God till they had received the gift of the Spirit.

O.O'B. That is what I wanted to know, but you can say they believed that Jesus was the Christ before.

F.E.R. It was the believing that Jesus was the Christ which was the ground of receiving the Spirit.

J.S.A. Something like what you were saying the other day about forgiveness of sins. It is presented in testimony, but a person must receive the Spirit to get the good of it.

W.M. Being born of God describes a christian.

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F.E.R. Just the same as "If any man love God". You get moral descriptions of a christian in the New Testament. Loving the appearing of Christ is a moral description of a christian.

W.M. That is John's way of presenting it.

J.P. And being born of God you are brought into the family.

F.E.R. "As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God". It goes on to say they were born, but the point is that receiving Christ became the title to be brought into the family of God.

W.M. The Father gives the calling and the Son gives the title to take the place of children.

F.E.R. And the Spirit bears witness.

Ques. Is "partakers of the divine nature" something of the same thought?

F.E.R. Yes. Now to come to the epistle. The first two chapters are introductory. The first chapter and the beginning of the second give us the ground of fellowship. We have not come yet to the substance of the teaching. In the latter part of chapter 2 we get apostolic care. Being in the light of necessity becomes a ground of fellowship, and we come in that way under apostolic care. All that is important. Then we arrive in chapter 3 at the substance of the epistle. Chapters 3 and 4 give us that, for the point of the epistle is to declare "that eternal life". We see the way God has taken to bring about recovery of man. We get the centre and a circle. That is in chapter 3, and the centre of the circle is the divine method of recovery. There may be many circles with one common centre, but you cannot have a circle without a centre.

J.P. Because it is the centre in that way that forms the circle and gives character to it.

F.E.R. And every part of the circle is equally related to the centre.

J.P. So that even in the most simple way if a person is going to describe a circle the first thing is the centre.

F.E.R. Now, if you are going to apply it, the point in

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recovery is that it must bear some relation to departure. And the point of recovery is the introduction of the centre, and in result you get many circles. We are concerned particularly with one circle, but there is one centre and many circles.

J.P. Like in the end of Psalm 22, there are many circles.

F.E.R. Yes, it does not matter how many circles there are.

W.M. So every family in heaven and on earth is named of the Father.

F.E.R. The Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. All have one centre.

Ques. What do you mean by recovery? Do you mean the gathering of everything back in the universe of God?

F.E.R. Yes.

R.S.S. I suppose there are quite a few who are wondering what you mean by the circles and the one centre, and the circle in which we are particularly interested.

F.E.R. At the outset God, appointed a centre, but there was no circle. But then the centre lost its bearing, man became lawless; if the centre got out of relation to God it lost its bearing. That is what came to pass at the beginning. Adam was the centre and he stood, as God created him, in relation to God; but in becoming lawless he lost his bearing; he was no longer morally the centre; then hatred came in in Cain, and then you could not have a circle, because hatred is that each pushes another away; that is what came out in the case of Cain, he would be violent. You could not have a circle with the principle of hatred, so the whole thing was vitiated.

J.S.A. And the point of departure is lawlessness.

F.E.R. That is, man got out of his bearing, just like any bit of complex machinery. If any part of it is out of its bearing, the whole thing gets out of working order.

Rem. I suppose if there is one centre and many circles there must be one circle that is within all the circles.

F.E.R. Yes, one centre will serve for any number of

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circles, like a stone thrown into the water, you have one centre but you may have any number of circles.

Ques. Will you tell us what is the first circle?

F.E.R. You get here first the centre, then the circle. "If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him. Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons (children) of God". The centre and what you may call the inmost circle; that is the divine way of recovery. God has brought in the principles of recovery -- it is an important point to my mind that the centre and the circle existed before ever the gospel was preached. It was brought to pass in connection with Christ and the little company that Christ gathered to Himself; and on the day of Pentecost it was manifest. The "righteous One" was preached as centre and at the same time there were the children of God and they loved one another. They were the circle, all equally related to the centre.

W.M. So that God and man had a place there.

F.E.R. Yes, the centre was in relation to God. All was in gear, the centre was in relation to God at the right hand of God, and there was the circle by the Spirit, that is, they were the children of God.

J.S.A. In Revelation 5, you have a kind of figure of it, the Lamb in the midst of the throne and then the elders round the throne, and then another circle angelic and then you have all creation; different circles.

Rem. It seems to me the illustration that you use of the sun and the planets in their orbits is quite an important point. We can all grasp it, and it is a very helpful figure. If any one gets out of its orbit it is lawlessness.

J.W.P. And so Christ being the centre will draw every circle to Him.

F.E.R. And every part of every circle is equally related to the centre. You see, the world got into confusion from the outset because there was not a centre. They were moved away from one another, like people without a head, and were distributed into nations, and their tongues

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confounded, and there was nation against nation, no centre. At the same time the universal principle of hatred was there. Men were hateful and hating one another. The two principles which came in by the fall were lawlessness and hatred. Lawlessness came in by Adam, and hatred by Cain.

J.P. Now God has brought in righteousness and love by Christ.

F.E.R. Yes. He is the righteous On; and He is pure; in Him is no sin. These three things are said about Him, that is your centre. And another point connected with Him, that He is really divine. "If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him". The centre though a Man is divine, but as a Man He is the righteous One, and pure, and in Him is no sin. He is the divinely appointed centre of a moral universe, and we get the inmost circle, that is, the children of God.

J.S.A. And then, to clear the ground, God brings in, "he was manifested to take away our sins".

F.E.R. Yes, lawlessness and hatred have come to an end with man in the death of Christ. If He had not been manifested to take away our sins by accomplishing redemption, and in that way discharging the liabilities under which we were, the circle could not have been there.

W.M. The relationship takes here a peculiar form. It is not recognisable by the world, so it forms no part of our testimony whatever.

F.E.R. I think it is very important to see that recovery was there before the gospel was preached. Christ brought in recovery; He is the righteous One who fulfilled righteousness, and He gave the Spirit to those who were gathered. Christianity was introduced by Christ Himself. He is the centre and He gave the promise of the Father to those whom he Himself had gathered. The introduction of christianity did not involve the responsibility of anybody.

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J.S.A. So, too, the point of reconciliation was there, although the work was not yet accomplished.

W.M. And it was all the work of Christ as the last Adam.

F.E.R. Quite so. He came in as Man, to accomplish redemption. That is, to discharge every liability according to the mercy of God. Christ is the centre in the very fact of His becoming Man; and having accomplished redemption He has gone up on high and communicated the gift of the Spirit to those whom He had gathered. There we have the two principles of lawlessness and hatred completely met in Christ, and in the little circle that Christ gathered.

J.S.A. And all those who are brought under the Head are brought into the circle.

F.E.R. Because they are brought in relation to the centre and hence come into the circle.

W.M. And the gospel never went out till these two things were established -- the centre and the circle.

F.E.R. Till the great principles of recovery were there. The disciples were forbidden to preach till they were endued with power from on high.

Rem. And the effect of the gospel was to bring into the circle.

F.E.R. To bring into relation to the centre. They did not preach the circle. They preached the centre, and the effect was that those who believed were brought into relation to the centre. They were brought into attachment, and being brought into attachment were brought into the circle.

W.M. And would you say that being attached to the centre they got righteousness, and being brought into the circle they got salvation?

F.E.R. They were brought into the circle where salvation was.

J.P. If persons are brought in relation to the centre they must be brought into that of which He is centre.

G.R. I suppose for us as christians there is no other circle but that.

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F.E.R. None.

Rem. I suppose when the second circle comes in it will be dependent on the first circle, in the centre.

F.E.R. I think it will be dependent on the centre. Every circle will be related to every other circle. It is very much like a stone when thrown into the water produces a great many circles, and all these circles are related to one another.

Rem. I understood you to say Israel would be dependent on the church for intelligence in the world to come.

F.E.R. There may be that, but you must maintain that every circle is brought into direct relation with the centre. The shining in the church will be beneficial for Israel, and the shining of Israel will be beneficial for the nations. "Arise, shine; for thy light is come". But then Israel stands in direct relation to Christ. We have had the principle before us, in regard to the New Testament, that in every epistle there is some particular presentation of Christ, which gives character to the epistle; and the same is true in the prophets. In Isaiah, the thought is, Immanuel. In Jeremiah, Jehovah our righteousness. In Ezekiel, it is the Son of man, and the same in Daniel. And that is that Israel may know Christ in that way. It is in relation to Israel.

J.P. "They are they which testify of me".

F.E.R. I think it is one of the greatest delights to find out the particular light in which Christ is presented in every book.

J.P. I am almost out of patience with myself to think how slow I am to see it.

F.E.R. When you get it, it is a clue to the book.

J.S.A. There must have been a very wonderful exposition of that very thing on the way to Emmaus.

F.E.R. "Beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself". He gave them the light in which He was presented in every scripture.

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W.M. Does that seventh verse mean that the christian is righteous relatively or in nature?

F.E.R. Always relatively. You become in bondage to righteousness. It is relative.

W.M. He is in his proper position in regard to Christ.

F.E.R. In relation to the centre, and if he is in relation to the centre he is righteous as Christ is righteous, and the doing righteousness is the expression that we are in relation to the centre.

J.P. That is the reason why the lines are so sharp and the statements so absolute.

R.S.S. Holiness is rather a question of nature, is it not?

F.E.R. I connect holiness with love. That is, we are partakers of the divine nature, and as we advance in love we advance in holiness. Righteousness is another point. It must be in the being in attachment to the righteous One. You cannot have righteousness otherwise, else man would be like God. God is righteous apart from any question of attachment. He is the righteous Jehovah.

J.S.A. Man being a creature, his true place is in attachment.

F.E.R. Just as in the universe. And the proof that every planet is in attachment is that it travels in its own orbit.

J.P. So in verses 6 and 7 you get both sides, the negative and the positive.

F.E.R. Go a point beyond the first circle. Children of God are righteous, because they are in relation to the centre, but you get, "the spirits of just men made perfect", because they are in relation to the centre. In regard to Israel, Jehovah is their righteousness. They are in relation to the centre. Each circle being in relation to the centre there is righteousness. Whatever there may be in Christ's day which will not be in relation to the centre, will be outside entirely. There is no righteousness in what we get at the end of Isaiah. They shall look on the carcasses of those who have transgressed. So, too, in regard to the

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lake of fire. It is not in relation to the centre, and there is no righteousness.

J.S.A. In the new heavens and the new earth it dwells.

J.P. The judgment of God comes in to remove them from the sphere of blessing.

F.E.R. They are outside of the moral universe in that sense, but lawlessness will be limited. That is the idea, I suppose, of the lake of fire; they will not stand in relation to righteousness.

G.W.H. Would you say the two things which mark the circle are righteousness and love?

F.E.R. I think that which marks the circle is love. Righteousness comes out in the way of love, as lawlessness comes out in the way of hatred. Hatred is a necessary consequence of lawlessness, because man has become a centre to himself, and hates anything that opposes his will. I know it in myself. That is what Cain was in regard to Abel, and he killed him.

G.W.H. So you become self-centred instead of God centred.

F.E.R. Exactly. Man set himself as a kind of rival to God with a will of his own, and he hated what opposed his will, and violence comes in upon hatred. The steps are undoubtedly lawlessness, hatred, violence. You see that even in a family. Children hate one another, and violence sometimes ensues, because they are lawless. In contrast to that the principles of recovery are righteousness and love. We love because we are righteous, that is the secret of love. Why do we love one another? Because we stand in equal relation to Christ, who is the centre.

J.P. Hence the secret of our going on in love with one another is our abiding in Christ.

F.E.R. That is it. "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not". And the commandment is that we shall believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another.

W.M. In a certain sense there is not much difference between righteousness and love.

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F.E.R. No. What was the righteousness of the law? That man should love God with all his heart, and his neighbour as himself. You get the thought here. "Whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither be that loveth not his brother".

Rem. The extremes are seen in both sides, that he that hates is regarded as a murderer, and be that loves is one who lays down his life for his brethren.

J.P. That is righteousness. Righteousness has a twofold bearing, like lawlessness. In righteousness, as to God, there is the doing of righteousness, and as to the brethren, there is love.

F.E.R. It comes out in this way, he that doeth righteousness proves that he is righteous by the practice of righteousness, that is, that he is related to the centre.

J.S.A. And in a way righteousness comes before salvation.

F.E.R. Quite so.

W.B. Would you connect responsibility with the circle?

F.E.R. Yes. But I would connect it very much more with the centre. Our responsibility in regard to the centre is to abide in Him. In the physical universe, we get the earth in relation to the sun, because there is no will at work in the earth, and the moon does not get out of relation to the earth for the same reason; but in regard of us, it is only too true that there is will, and if there is will unjudged we may get out of relation to the centre.

J.P. So the loving one another is put in the way of a commandment. "And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment". It is clearly responsibility in relation to the One who gives the commandment.

F.E.R. I think so.

W.N. I suppose to abide in Him and love one another is a pretty good compendium of christianity.

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F.E.R. You could scarcely get anything more concise or comprehensive. But then on the other hand, connected with it, is that everything is in order.

W.M. There would not be a lawless body in the moral universe if that were true.

F.E.R. No, if christians were all abiding in Christ and loving one another.

Ques. It says in verse 6, "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not". Is that characteristic?

F.E.R. It is what is habitual. If a man sins it is what he does habitually, and if a man does righteousness it is what he does habitually.

J.A. And if we abide in Him and love one another, as these things have weight with us we enter more into them.

F.E.R. I think we enter more into the sense of relationship to the centre and to one another.

Rem. I suppose the circle is christian fellowship?

F.E.R. I think it is christian affection. Fellowship in the first chapter is in the light. I would not make the christian circle and fellowship exactly the same thing. In the Colossians, where you get the christian circle, it is affection; so you get in Philippians, "That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons (children) of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world; holding forth the word of life". That is a great deal more than fellowship to my mind. It is affection. It is a mistake to confound the two.

G.W. What is the difference?

F.E.R. Fellowship is in a common bond. It is not a question of affection. We are true to the bond like partners in a business. It is more a question of fidelity, but the circle involves affection. It would work in this way, that if we were true in the christian circle in affection for one another, we should better guard our fellowship. We should be more careful.

W.M. Fellowship would not be a formal thing.

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F.E.R. No. We should see more in it and be more careful of it.

G.W.H. It would be rather remarkable to speak of fellowship in a family.

F.E.R. Yes, there is not fellowship in a family, but affection. So here you get the thought of children. "Now are we children of God". What is proper in them is affection. This is His commandment, that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another. The character of the love is that it is the love of Christ.

W.M. I suppose verse 16 presents the obligation of affection. We should lay down our lives for the brethren.

F.E.R. The truth is this, not simply that you are in attachment, like the earth to the sun, which is external, but being in relation to Christ, the centre, we draw from the centre and hence what comes out in us in relation to one another is from thence.

W.M. It is more like sheep and the Shepherd.

F.E.R. Yes.

G.W.H. It is love which gives the completeness to the circle.

F.E.R. I think so. We would never love one another by looking at one another. The fact is, the more that we look at one another the more we see one another's peculiarities, but if we are to walk according to God's mind our eyes must be upon Christ. It is a great thing to get away from looking at one another. "By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments".

J.P. One way Scripture will allow us to consider one another is to provoke to love and to good works.

W.M. I suppose it is our brother that we love. I must see my brother in order to love him.

O.O'B. Do you mean you do not love the children of God everywhere, if you have not seen them?

F.E.R. I mean the opposite. "By this we know that we

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love the children of God, when we love God and keep his commandments".

W.M. Do you think the point of that passage is, that you must see your brother? You do not love one that is not your brother. You must see the divine nature.

O.O'B. I do not understand it now, if that is the case. Do I understand we are not to love the brethren we have not seen?

F.E.R. No. The point is if you love God you will love the children of God, no matter where they are. There is a great number of them I have never met, but I know I love them because I love God and keep His commandments.

W.M. It is pretty hard to love a man individually that you have never seen.

F.E.R. But I know that I love him. Wherever I find a christian I love him. So you get the affection of the apostle going out to those who had not seen his face in the flesh.

T.A. Then it comes in that we do not know any man after the flesh.

F.E.R. I only know people who stand in relation to Christ. I do not cultivate acquaintance with people after the flesh. I have often said I have no friends. I do not try to cultivate them. The spring of everything with us is that we stand in relation to the centre and we love those who stand in relation to the centre. We have no cliques. We love one another, because every one in the circle stands equally related to the centre. That is the ground of affection.

Rem. Anything else is natural affection.

F.E.R. I do not care to go into a house where there is a clique. It is a thing to be avoided among us. It is not according to the truth of the circle. In a circle every part of the circle is equidistant to the centre.

J.P. There is one thing certain, if a christian has no friends in the world his worldly friends will not trouble him.

F.E.R. They give you up after a time.

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R.S.S. What is our responsibility to those who are outside the circle in the way of love?

F.E.R. You want to introduce the centre to them, because the centre is Head to them, not centre to them, but Head to them. He is centre to the divinely appointed circle. You want to introduce the Head to everybody. That is where preaching comes in.

R.S.S. What would you say is the distinction between the centre and the Head?

F.E.R. I think that Christ is the Head of every man, but every man is not in the circle.

J.P. Because the circle involves attachment.

F.E.R. There is a great deal of lawlessness in the world that does not take account of the Head; that does not like the thought that Christ is the divinely appointed Head.

W.M. So our relation to every man is the gospel.

F.E.R. Yes.

R.S.S. Under the law we were to love our neighbours as ourselves.

F.E.R. Could you love him better than by trying to bring the Head to him, and him to the Head?

R.S.S. We are to bring the gospel to him.

F.E.R. You cannot do a greater service than that.

J.P. The rights and claims of Christ.

W.B-t. Would you make any difference between human love and divine love in ourselves as a principle?

F.E.R. I think human love never comes from Christ. Christ never loved any one with human love, and if He is the spring of our affection to one another, He is the spring of divine affection.

J.S.A. I think there is a point in connection with Mr. M.'s remark, that is, it sometimes seems a little more difficult to love those that we do see and whose weaknesses we know than it is to love the children of God whose weaknesses we do not see.

F.E.R. But you must keep your eye away from the saints and on Christ. You must get to Christ the spring.

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J.S.A. What I mean is that you have to look at what is of Christ in them.

F.E.R. But if you are looking at Christ you are looking at the Christ that is in them.

W.M. And I suppose even in loving your natural relations you take your guidance from the love of Christ.

F.E.R. I think Christ governs in regard of even natural relations.

Ques. How does natural affection come in?

F.E.R. If you stand in relation to Christ, and love Christ, it makes a difference, because you love Christ more than your relations.

Rem. I was thinking of your remark that the Lord did not love with a natural love.

F.E.R. But you love the saints more than you love your own children, do you not?

Rem. I think I do.

F.E.R. You do love your children, but your love to your children is modified by your love for the saints, and I have no doubt that your love to your children is more pure; when a person is converted all his affections have to be readjusted, because Christ and the saints come in, and the saints take priority of the natural affections.

Ques. Is that why in Colossians and Ephesians all relationships are brought in in connection with the Lord?

F.E.R. But you get the saints first. Your natural affections are purified by the introduction of spiritual affections.

G.W.H. So I suppose you learn to maintain all those relations from Christ.

G.R. How about the young man of whom it was said the Lord loved him? Is there any difference between that love and the Lord's love to us?

F.E.R. His love to us is the love of relationship. To him it was divine love.

R.S.S. Does love, whether human or divine, always spring from relationship?

F.E.R. Not with God.

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R.S.S. With us?

F.E.R. I think it does. It is a consequence with us, but with God it is the spring. You get that in the passage, "We love him, because he first loved us". "God is love". You never could say of a saint, he is love, but God is love.

J.P. God does not love "because".

F.E.R. No.

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READINGS ON THE FIRST EPISTLE OF JOHN (4)

1 John 3:23, 24; 1 John 4:1 - 21

F.E.R. We were saying yesterday that the first two chapters were introductory. That is, they bring in the thought of fellowship and apostolic care, and that is introductory. In chapters 3 and 4 we come to the substance of the epistle. We have had before us two great points; first, abiding in Christ, by which we escape from lawlessness, and then the christian circle, by which we escape from the world, and the hatred which is prevalent in it. Now we come to the third point, and that is the region of the Spirit, and in that we get into divine light, and escape from the darkness. We have come out of lawlessness into righteousness. Out of the world and hatred into the christian circle, and love. And out of darkness into the light of the Spirit. That describes christianity; it is in that sense we get the thought of eternal life.

W.M. And, as you said, all these three conditions were present before the preaching went forth.

F.E.R. They were appointed of God when the Spirit was given. Christ was the centre and was preached in that way. Then the circle existed by the Spirit, and in it those who were converted escaped the world. The apostle said to them, "Save yourselves from this untoward generation". Then they were baptised, and brought into the christian circle. At the same time they came out of darkness (for really judaism was darkness, although there was in it the shadow of coming good things), into the light, which is the region of the Spirit. There is no light outside of the Spirit of God.

R.S.S. That is what we come to this morning.

F.E.R. It is that which completes the subject.

W.N. What is your thought in calling the love of God light?

F.E.R. Because that is the light in which we are. The

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Spirit has come to establish us in light, and the light is divine love. I do not know what else is light.

Ques. Is it the way in which God has been manifested?

F.E.R. Yes.

W.M. The revelation of God is light.

F.E.R. Yes, but it is the revelation of God in its relation to us.

W.M. And that is that God is love.

F.E.R. But that is not quite enough, we get another thing immediately, "in this was manifested the love of God toward us". It is not only the abstract thought, true as it is, but the manifestation of divine love in its application to us.

W.M. But whether manifested or not, God is love.

F.E.R. Quite so.

J.S.A. But in our sense of it, it has to do with the way He has revealed Himself to us.

F.E.R. We never knew or can know what God is abstractly. We only know God in the way in which God has come out in regard to us.

J.S.A. It requires a divine Person to know God in any other way.

W.M. So we know Him as revealed.

F.E.R. Yes, in the way in which He has manifested His love toward us. We are not equal with God, we cannot know God on equal terms. We know Him in the manifestation of His love toward us in the conditions in which we were.

W.M. That makes eternal life a very practical thing and not at all difficult to understand.

F.E.R. I do not think it difficult. It depends entirely on our being intelligently in the conditions. Everything is moral, and hence you must of necessity be in the things intelligently.

R.S.S. You spoke of the love of God as light, because no greater light could come to us than that God loves us. Is that the idea?

F.E.R. I think so. That is the great light in which you

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are. Light is the revelation of God in His mind toward us. It would not be wise in us to go and tell everybody simply that God is love. They could not take it in, but when you say, "In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him", that is simple.

J.S.A. And therefore it is on that line that eternal life comes in, as God's thought for man, and not as some have thought, the life of divine Persons.

F.E.R. It is ignorance to talk about the life of divine Persons. The fact is, your life is yourself. The same is true in regard to Christ. His life is Himself.

W.B-s. Was the love of God known before Christ came in flesh?

F.E.R. No. When you look at things in the light of Christ you can understand them, but many things could not be understood at the time they were spoken. We understand things in the Old Testament, and in God's dealings at that time, a great deal better than contemporaries did, because we have the light of Christ to illuminate everything. I have often thought that the death of Christ interpreted every act of Christ's life. The disciples entered into the life and ministry of Christ by the apprehension of His death. Every act of His life was on the principles of His death. The Lord never did anything in the way of acts of mercy, etc., apart from the principles of His death. The principles of His death were the principles that ruled in His life and ministry, and it will be the same when Christ comes again in glory. He will not establish anything contrary to His death.

J.P. It could not have been otherwise.

F.E.R. No, indeed.

W.B-s. So the clothing of Adam at the first with skins is a figure of the death of Christ?

F.E.R. It referred to man's nakedness and God took account of that, and clothed him; no doubt it alluded to the death of Christ.

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J.S.A. As you have pointed out before in Luke 2, the Lord's death was indicated right through from His birth.

W.M. I suppose He could not have touched man at all in His life if His death had not been in prospect.

F.E.R. I think not. Every touch of man by Christ was on the principle of His death.

J.P. Because God could not come out in Christ to man on any other ground.

F.E.R. There were two principles that ruled with Christ; the one, the setting aside of man with all his pretensions, and the other, that God should be brought in. These two principles came out in Christ's death. In the death of Christ man was put out with his liabilities at one door, but he comes in by another. He is put out after the flesh, but He comes in by the Spirit. That is the meaning of the death of Christ.

J.S.A. And these two things are set forth in the bread and wine?

F.E.R. And they are set forth in the Lord's ministry. He was always ruling out man, and bringing in God in mercy. In His miracles, healing lepers, giving sight to the blind, etc., you get that thought.

W.M. His death came to extinguish man after the order of the flesh, and His life was in accord with it.

F.E.R. Man is let in by the Spirit into the love of God, "By me if any man enter in, he shall be saved".

Ques. Does verse 9 correspond with John 3:16?

F.E.R. Quite so.

T.F. Are not light and love set in their own connection in the word?

F.E.R. I think that love is the light

T.F. Does the word bring that to us in any way?

F.E.R. I think you get the two things in this gospel, "if we walk in the light", but the light is the revelation that God is love. You cannot separate between light and love.

T.F. They are distinct in the word.

F.E.R. John does not bring out all at once. We have

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the first point that God is light, and we walk in the light, and as things are developed in the epistle you get the further thought that God is love; that is what the light is, the revelation of God in love. I have no doubt the effect of light morally is to expose and enlighten. Men's eyes are opened by light and, at the same time, everything is exposed; but if you ask what the light is that has come in, it is the revelation of God in love.

T.F. We have love that covers a multitude of sins, and light exposes; there must be a contrast.

F.E.R. Light exposes, but light enlightens. The Lord says in John 9, "As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world", and then He gives sight to the blind man. That is the way the light comes out in that chapter. The man is enlightened, but in chapter 8 everything is exposed.

G.R. I suppose there could be no greater exposure than in the One who is perfect love coming into a scene where all is hatred.

F.E.R. That is what the Lord brings out in John 9, "For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind". Light exposes, but light attracts. That is true in natural things. Look at flowers or plants in the sun. The sun will draw them to itself.

W.M. Light has warmth in it, too.

F.E.R. When it is the light of the sun.

W.B-s. John the baptist was a burning and shining light.

G.R. I suppose in the case of Saul of Tarsus he was thoroughly exposed and yet divinely attracted?

F.E.R. Yes.

W.B-t. As to John the baptist, the Lord said he was a light, and they were willing for a season to rejoice in his light.

F.E.R. Quite so, because John was the forerunner of Christ, "And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the

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Lord to prepare his ways". John spoke of repentance and of Christ's coming.

G.W.H. So light exposes in regard of man and enlightens in regard of God.

F.E.R. Yes, you could not get a better unfolding of it than in John 8 and 9. In chapter 8 everything is exposed. In chapter 9 Christ is the light to give sight to the blind man, but at the end he sees the Son of God. And that is where the light of God has come in to completely undeceive people in regard of God; but they are undeceived in order that they may see the Son of God, and that He may be everything to them.

J.S.A. And in that sense you will perhaps say that light is rather more relative than where it says God is love. In the latter case it is absolute. In the other it comes to us in a scene of darkness and so takes the character of light.

G.W.H. I suppose darkness is ignorance of God, and light has come in to give the knowledge of God?

F.E.R. That is it. Light comes in to dissipate darkness. "In him was life; and the life was the light of men". The light of men was the life. "And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not", but what shone was light. The life was the light of men.

J.P. If any one followed Him he was not walking in darkness but had the light of life.

F.E.R. That is it. Light is the life.

R.S.S. There is a remarkable connection established in verse 9 between love and life.

F.E.R. Life for us is the outcome of divine love, evidently the object of God in the sending of His Son was that we might live. Nothing would have been achieved otherwise.

R.S.S. So that we can speak of the end of the verse, "that we might live through him", as God's great thought for man.

F.E.R. There are two things, that we might live, and it goes on to say, "Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation

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for our sins". That is, that our liabilities might be discharged.

W.B-s. Then verse 10 was necessary that verse 9 might be made good?

F.E.R. Exactly. There must be the propitiation, but the divine thought and purpose was that we might live by Him.

R.S.S. That is stated first.

W.M. It is placed in the opposite order from John 3.

G.W.H. I suppose love is the spring of life, and the light comes in to reveal it.

F.E.R. But love is life morally. What is the life of God, looked at morally? It is love in activity.

Rem. Then I suppose hatred is death?

F.E.R. Death morally.

G.R. So it says in Ephesians, "being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart".

F.E.R. That is it. They did not like love in activity.

G.W.H. While it is true that you may become partaker of the divine nature, would you say you partake of the love of God?

F.E.R. Only morally.

Ques. That is, to be born of God?

J.P. I see that while you can distinguish things in a way in this epistle, it is important not to separate them; for instance, these two statements, he that hates his brother is in darkness, and this other, he that loveth not his brother abides in death.

F.E.R. Exactly, death is darkness, and love is light. I was saying in regard to chapter 4, that you get into the region of the Spirit, that is into the region of light. All light comes to us by the Spirit.

J.P. That is why you asked to read the end of chapter 3, because there the Spirit is so distinctly introduced.

F.E.R. Exactly, the next chapter is given to bring you into the region of the Spirit, and so in chapter 4 the admonition is not to trust every spirit. If you come into

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the region of the Spirit you detect and refuse other spirits.

J.P. And you have ability to do that. You cannot have ability apart from the Spirit.

F.E.R. No. If you had not come into the region of the Spirit you would not detect other spirits, and there were plenty of such abroad in that day, and I take it there are plenty in this day; it is not simply detecting the outward, but what is beneath the outward. Take popery or rationalism or unitarianism, it is not that you are deceived by the outward, but you detect the spirit that is underneath. "Try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world".

W.M. And that is true exposure.

F.E.R. They preserve a fair show in popery, and so too the rationalists, but you want to get at the spirit that is underneath.

W.M. It is a question of how these things are related to Christ.

F.E.R. I think everything depends on how Christ is viewed. The tendency in christendom at the present time is to make too much of the humanity of Christ. I believe in the humanity of Christ as much as anybody does, but I see too much may be made of it. Rationalists try and reduce Him to a man. They bring in the "kenosis". Popery makes a great deal of Mary, and the great professing bodies are tainted more than they are aware of by unitarianism.

W.M. That is the spirit which is abroad.

F.E.R. It was abroad in the apostle's day, and so too in the present day; if you look at the outward you are liable to be deceived by creeds and orthodox statements, but you must not trust them. They are not worth much.

J.S.A. What would you think is the force of the test given here?

F.E.R. Jesus Christ come in flesh. He is not simply the Man Jesus, but Christ come in flesh. It is the advent of a divine Person.

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W.M. To say that about a mere man would be absurd, because he could not come in any other way than in flesh.

F.E.R. Quite so. The point is faith in the pre-existence of Christ, and that He became man.

J.P. The very form of the expression involves that.

F.E.R. It is the truth of the incarnation.

J.S.A. "The Word became flesh".

W.M. In this case it is not a question of individuals but of spirits.

F.E.R. And I have no doubt that if you get into the region of the Spirit you become sensitive to error. You do not judge of things by creeds. They are deceptive. It was thought in christendom that the Athanasian creed would be a guarantee for orthodoxy. It is not a bit of guarantee. The only preservative from error is the region of the Spirit. There you become sensitive to error. I do not believe much more in orthodoxy than in heterodoxy. Go through the history of christianity; it is difficult to distinguish between the two.

W.M. I suppose the safeguard is to hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

F.E.R. The thing is to get into the region of the Spirit. You get into light, and then you can detect error.

G.W.H. And it is only by the Spirit you can distinguish between error and truth.

J.S.A. And have your senses exercised, and then you discern the tendencies of teaching and books, etc.

F.E.R. Exactly.

W.B-t. Why is the critical point in Jesus Christ "come in flesh"?

F.E.R. You believe in incarnation, that is, that Jesus is a divine Person come in flesh.

J.S.A. As you said at the beginning, He is expressed in this epistle as "the true God, and eternal life", and therefore the test is to recognise Him in the Man Christ Jesus.

F.E.R. The Lord speaks Himself about "the Christ". The Christ came not to be ministered unto, but to minister. So, too, the same thought comes out in

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Philippians 2, "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: but made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant". It was "Christ Jesus" who made Himself of no reputation.

Ques. What is the thought of "emptied himself".

F.E.R. Made Himself of no account.

W.M. I suppose the expression "though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor" is the same thought. He was never rich here.

G.W.H. You were saying it was a good thing to get into the region of the Spirit. Would you say what it is?

F.E.R. The Spirit has to maintain us in the consciousness of divine relations. And you get very easily out of this. In Romans 5, "the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit which is given unto us". He brings the heart into the light and sense of divine love, and you cry, "Abba, Father". That is where we have to abide. Take the average christian. How much of every day is a christian diligent to take advantage of the Spirit, and to live in the sense of divine relations? Not long, I take it. A good part of the night is taken up with sleep, and a good part of the day with meals and with business, and very little of the day is devoted to the maintenance of divine relations.

G.W.H. Would one who is out of communion not be in the region of the Spirit?

F.E.R. I think he has got out of it, or out of the sense of it. He is not in it consciously.

W.M. And that revelation is life in the christian sense.

F.E.R. Yes.

J.P. I was struck with the way it is put, "And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by his Spirit". I suppose there is the maintenance in us of the power, the reality of all these things, and that is what is in your thought as to being in the region of the Spirit.

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F.E.R. Yes. He brings God in to us. We abide in God, and He abides in us.

J.P. So he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God and God in Him.

J.A. And you are put in a position to test things.

Rem. You do not mean that we should give up our business or the demands on us as men in the flesh.

F.E.R. The apostle says, "If a man will not work neither let him eat".

Rem. There are two sides.

F.E.R. But often I think people give a great deal more attention to their business than to the cultivation of divine relations.

W.B-t. Would you say a little about that?

F.E.R. The world is exceedingly subtle and there is a temptation to get on in the world which few people can resist. I have not seen many who could.

Rem. Mr. Darby explains that in his hymn, 'As hireling fills his day'. (Hymn 12)

F.E.R. I think it was fulfilled in Mr. Darby. He might have done well in the world, but he gave up worldly prospects to be in the region of the Spirit. He was the better man for it. People make mistakes. I have heard the proposition laid down that the man of faith is as well off as the man of means, and I believe it.

Rem. He is better off.

F.E.R. I would admit that. I have never seen the righteous forsaken nor his seed begging bread. Having food and raiment let us be therewith content. Superfluity is no advantage -- certainly not spiritually.

J.S.A. The expression 'a man of faith' is not equivalent to a man who has given up his business.

W.B-s. Why did the wise man say, "give me neither poverty nor riches"?

F.E.R. He saw that what was beneficial for man was to have food convenient. Paul said the same thing. It is wisdom. The man of faith is as well off as the man of means, only he must be the man of faith. Read Luke 12,

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"your Father knoweth that ye have need of these things;" but then that is piety. The point in this chapter is the region of the Spirit. It is on the one hand the love of God shed abroad in the heart by the Holy Spirit given unto us, and on the other, our maintaining our relations with God. That is what we have to look to.

J.W.P. Is it possible to be in the region of the Spirit and do business?

F.E.R. You cannot take up business according to the methods of the world. There are many things which the man of the world can take up which a christian could not take up.

W.M. Because Christ is his Head.

F.E.R. Quite so, and the Spirit would not sanction it. The very first principle in connection with the Spirit is righteousness.

A.Q.R. Could a christian properly do that for others which he could not do for himself?

F.E.R. I think so. I have not a conscience in what I do for others, but I have a conscience in what I do for myself.

J.N.H. Would you give an illustration of that?

F.E.R. If my employer tells me to do something, it is not a question of my conscience, but his conscience. It is no responsibility of mine.

J.W.P. But suppose the thing is wrong?

F.E.R. If he wanted me to go and thieve it would be a question of my conscience, and I would not do it; but if my employer tells me to do something in the ordinary course of things which is not immoral, it is not my responsibility.

G.R. If you were a carpenter, serving an employer, you would work in a theatre or a saloon, but you would not go and build one for yourself?

F.E.R. Quite so.

Rem. I suppose our business comes in that we may discharge our obligations while passing through the scene?

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F.E.R. To support your wife and family.

Rem. And have something to distribute.

F.E.R. If God sees fit to give it to you.

R.S.S. Would you say the great thing is to endeavour to maintain divine relations and to live in the consciousness of them?

F.E.R. I take up the admonition in Jude, "Keep yourselves in the love of God". That is a first principle.

J.S.A. And to do that would not only give rest to the soul, but would practically preserve from evil, too.

F.E.R. But the point to my mind is that it is happiness. People like to come into one another's company and find happiness and pleasure in it. Where are we to find supreme happiness?

R.S.S. In God's company.

J.S.A. I remember you were saying some time ago that people do not, as a rule, cater for their own happiness.

W.B-s. "In thy presence is fulness of joy".

F.E.R. You cannot find better company than that of God. We are maintained by the Spirit in the light of God, and the thing is to take advantage of it. God is always available to us.

W.M. What is the force of bringing love in in this part of the epistle in connection with our responsible path?

F.E.R. You cannot always look at yourself abstractly; you can look at yourself abstractly when you are regarded as in heaven, but if you look at yourself here you must take into account your responsible path.

W.M. On the way to heaven?

F.E.R. Yes. For instance, take such a thought as in Ephesians 2, He has "quickened us together with Christ ... And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus". A passage like that must look at a christian abstractly, because as a matter of fact he is not raised up and made to sit in the heavenly places, but John looks at christians down here,

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and hence the question of responsibility comes in. So, too, in Colossians; it is only in heavenly places that you can view persons abstractly.

W.M. That is, in Ephesians you anticipate heaven.

F.E.R. Yes, and hence if you take up christians in that way they are viewed abstractly, as in Christ Jesus. So, when Paul was caught up into the third heaven, he viewed himself abstractly -- "a man in Christ". Take a man off this scene, to which he properly belongs, and view him in heaven, you must look at him abstractly.

W.M. He has no responsibilities.

F.E.R. No. The difference between John's and Paul's ministry is that Paul takes the saints up to heaven, but John brings God down to earth. That is John's ministry from beginning to end, and it finishes up in the Revelation, "the tabernacle of God is with men". He claims the world for God, and brings God into it. Hence christians are viewed as down here, and the day of judgment comes in.

W.M. The end of our responsible course is the day of judgment?

F.E.R. Yes. But there is a beautiful conclusion at the end of the chapter, "has love been perfected with us that we may have boldness in the day of judgment, that even as he is, we also are in this world".

W.M. It gives us perfect confidence in view of the day of judgment.

F.E.R. Yes. I connect it with the last verses of Romans 8, "I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord". The love of God is in Christ Jesus our Lord, and as He is, so are we in this world.

W.M. What does that mean?

F.E.R. The love is in the centre of the circle, but then all the circle comes into the love because it abides in the

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centre. We cannot be separated from the centre and so cannot be separated from the love which rests there.

W.M. His love is security for everything.

F.E.R. Yes.

W.B-s. Part of the Lord's prayer in John 17, is that it?

F.E.R. Yes.

Ques. I was going to ask if we get in Galatians the same thought of responsibility connected with love, "The life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me"?

F.E.R. Quite so. Now you have come out of lawlessness into attachment; out of hatred into love, in the christian circle; out of darkness into the light of the Spirit, that is eternal life. What I mean is this, you have the question of eternal life solved, because we have conditions which will prevail in the world to come. In the world to come there is an end of lawlessness. All will be brought into attachment. Then there is an end of hatred, because the love of Christ will give character to the whole scene, and there is an end of darkness, because the light of God is brought in. But the point is that we anticipate all that spiritually.

J.S.A. And you mean that the soul that is living in these conditions is living in that which is eternal life?

F.E.R. Yes. He is living in the conditions which the coming of Christ will bring into the world.

W.M. So the ministry of John brings us to eternal life now?

F.E.R. Yes, in anticipation. The other evangelists speak of it in the age to come, but John brings it to us now in the knowledge of Christ. All the conditions are there, the centre, the circle and light. So that for us lawlessness, the world, and the darkness have come to an end. You are in righteousness now, in an atmosphere, and in light.

O.O'B. That is what you mean by the subjective side -- the atmosphere?

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F.E.R. The subjective side comes in consequent on the objective side. You must get the objective side, then you get the subjective side. If you come into rule rule comes into you, if you come into atmosphere atmosphere comes into you, if you come into light light comes into you, but you must get into it first. The point is, the subjective follows on the objective, and you cannot get the one without the other. The objective is in the apprehension of the conditions, and if you apprehend the conditions, they abide in you.

J.S.A. It is only true of me now in so far as I am actually living in the conditions?

F.E.R. Exactly. You must have the objective first, like a child. Take a child born into the world naturally, it comes into rule, but rule comes into it; so, too, it comes into an atmosphere, but the atmosphere comes into it, and it comes into light and the light is in it. It is not at all difficult to understand.

O.O'B. I do not think it is difficult. I think the difficulty has been before that we had not the subjective side.

F.E.R. The one must hang on the other. It is inevitable. The moment a child is born it begins to respire, but there is the air for it to breathe; and the same is true as to the light.

J.S.A. But I think the difficulty was this, in not seeing that we were only entering now anticipatively and in spirit into these conditions. People assumed prematurely that they had it.

F.E.R. I will tell you what the difficulty was, people were putting the subjective before the objective.

O.O'B. That is quite true.

F.E.R. Now if you put the subjective following on the objective you will be right, and it is in that sense "no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him".

O.O'B. I do not question, we were all wrong. I was for one; but I think this has helped a great many difficulties that we had.

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F.E.R. I do not think it is possible to have the subjective without the objective in natural things, and the same is true in spiritual things. If you have the objective the subjective must follow.

J.P. That is, whatever you abide in must abide in you.

F.E.R. The same is true in regard to Christ, you abide in Christ and Christ abides in you.

J.P. But Christ abiding in you depends on your abiding in Christ.

F.E.R. Exactly. There must be a beginning morally in you. You must apprehend the conditions first intelligently.

J.P. And it is the invariable order of statement in Scripture, "If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you".

R.S.S. And in John's gospel, have we not in chapter 3 the objective side and in chapter 4 the subjective? That was made very clear to us last time you were here.

F.E.R. You could not touch the objective without the Spirit. You could not get attachment without the Spirit nor the atmosphere, nor the light. The apprehension of each condition is dependent on the Spirit.

R.S.S. But in the third chapter you have the mind of God stated.

F.E.R. And the Lord gives what you may call the principles in the fourth chapter; the source of everything in you. In other words, you have not got eternal life in chapter 4.

R.S.S. But that which is the source of it.

F.E.R. But the source of it and the thing itself are two different things.

J.P. You have what springs up into it.

R.S.S. And it is He that springs up.

F.E.R. But the water that Christ gives is the Spirit, that springs up into everlasting life. You get the testimony, then you get the Spirit, by the Spirit you get the objective, and in getting the objective you get the subjective.

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J.S.A. I think the point that is being cleared up is that all life whether natural or spiritual is living in certain conditions. If you do not apprehend those conditions you do not apprehend what it is to live.

F.E.R. No creature can live without conditions.

W.B-s. Is John 3:16 very comprehensive? Does it not take in both sides?

F.E.R. It gives you the testimony of divine love and what divine love intends. It is to the end that you may have eternal life. It is the thought of God that you should have it. How you are going to get it is a different matter, but John 4 brings in the next thing -- the well of water springing up. But when the well of water springs up one is like a child newly born. For we all live in the Spirit, and when the living water is received, then it is by the Spirit that we apprehend the divinely appointed conditions. We apprehend that Christ is the centre. We apprehend the christian circle, and the light. You come into the objective, but then the objective is in you subjectively.

J.P. So he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life eternal.

W.M. And in chapter 4 the Spirit is essential to the conditions being established.

F.E.R. The conditions are there, but you cannot enter into the conditions till you are alive, and that is by living water. You must have the Spirit. The apostle says, "if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his". So he says, "if we live by the Spirit".

Rem. So new birth does not bring in life of itself.

F.E.R. Not according to Scripture. The Spirit gives life.

W.B-t. Everything depends upon the Spirit.

F.E.R. Exactly, in christianity.

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READINGS ON THE FIRST EPISTLE OF JOHN (5)

1 John 4:20, 21; 5: 1 - 21

F.E.R. We come in this chapter to the climax, that is, to the thought of witness. It is a very important consideration that God intended to establish a witness here to His Son, while the Son is absent, and that is in that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.

J.P. So that the testimony is in the fact of saints being in eternal life.

F.E.R. I think so. It is witness that the Son of God has come. That is, that there are those here who have eternal life. You see, if we are not in the good of it the witness is obscured. The putting a witness in the witness box, in itself, means nothing; everything depends on the witness which the witness bears. So you want to hear what christians have to say. That is where the witness comes out.

Ques. Is the object of the witness that the world may believe that God has sent the Son?

F.E.R. Yes.

G.W.H. It shows there is a very poor witness going out today.

F.E.R. It is as if the saints were in the witness box and giving no witness.

Rem. A very confused testimony.

F.E.R. Very.

G.R. What is the force in the connection at the beginning of verse 10 of "He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself"?

F.E.R. That is the Spirit, I take it. We must have the witness in ourselves in order that we may be a witness.

W.M. Do you look on verse 11 as giving the witness?

F.E.R. One must have the witness in himself first, then it follows, "he that believeth not God hath made

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him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son". We first have the witness in ourselves and then we become witnesses.

W.M. Does the latter clause of verse 10, "because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son", mean that the person refuses this witness which comes out in the saints?

F.E.R. Apparently.

G.W.H. Then there are two witnesses. The Spirit witnesses in us, and we are witnesses in the world.

F.E.R. It is what we get in John 17, "That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that thou hast sent me". The unity of saints was the testimony to the world that the Father sent the Son. What you will find is this, that every part of what we have had before us is used to enforce our obligation to one another.

G.W.H. Would you say you see that coming out in the second chapter of the Acts?

F.E.R. Yes. If you take the thought that we abide in Christ, it is used to enforce the obligation to love one another. The same is true in the christian circle; and then again, if you are in the light of divine love, it is used to enforce the obligation to love one another. "Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God". Then, if we love one another, the effect is unity, and thus you get the witness to the world. Suppose we appreciate our bond to Christ, and our place in the christian circle, and are in the light of the Spirit, every part tends to emphasise our obligation to love one another. Not only do we know the centre, but we keep the circle, and thus are a testimony to the world. "By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another". But that could not possibly be if we had not the witness in ourselves.

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Rem. The three that bear witness: I suppose that is toward us individually.

F.E.R. That is in us.

Ques. What is the force of the threefold witness, the Spirit, the water and the blood?

F.E.R. They are one.

G.R. In what way do they witness to each one now?

F.E.R. The Spirit brings you into attachment; the water brings you into the christian circle, and the blood is the witness of the love of God as seen in the new covenant.

Ques. Is the force of the water here the same as in John 13?

F.E.R. Cleansing. Christ came by water and blood, in the way of witness. The water is the witness that He has overcome the world, and the blood that He has brought out the love of God, in expiation.

L.T.F. How is the water the witness that He has overcome the world?

F.E.R. He died rather than succumb to the world. He died to it. But then His death is water to us because by it we die to the world. If Christ had not died to it we could not die to it. Hence the death of Christ is water to us, the witness that the world has been overcome. The Lord Jesus said, "Be of good cheer, I have overcome the world". In death Christ bore all that which lay upon us, but at the same time He overcame the world. We overcome the world by accepting death to it.

Ques. Is that the same water as we get in Romans 6 for practical application?

F.E.R. It is the moral significance of baptism, I take it. "The like figure whereunto even baptism" (that is, water) "doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ".

W.M. I suppose the water coming from Christ in death carries with it purifying power?

F.E.R. Yes, it does that because it is a witness. You

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must remember that there are three that bear witness. The water and the blood bear witness. They bear witness, and all three agree in one.

W.M. Does it mean they each bear witness separately and yet they all agree?

F.E.R. Yes, but what witness do they bear? The witness of the Spirit is evident enough. It bears witness to Christ in heaven, the centre; the water, to the world overcome; the blood, to the love of God, which has given expiation.

W.M. Why does it say they agree in one?

F.E.R. That God has given to us eternal life. It is one testimony in us to that effect. If you are brought into attachment to Christ and into the christian circle, and into the light of the Spirit, you are in the conditions of eternal life.

G.R. It seems to me if we were in the power of these three things we would certainly be in the sphere of eternal life.

F.E.R. Exactly, you would be abiding in eternal life and eternal life in you. And then you have the witness, and that comes out in our affection for one another; unity; that is what the world can understand; it cannot understand eternal life, but it can see the unity of saints.

W.B-t. You were speaking of the unity of the circle and maintaining it; is that individual responsibility?

F.E.R. I think so.

G.W.H. Referring to what you just said, we get the three conditions of eternal life.

F.E.R. Yes, but it is the summing up with a view to presenting the witness.

W.M. Does this tenth verse mean that this witness is apprehended individually?

F.E.R. Yes, it is "he"; that is, individual.

W.M. And all that is witnessed comes to the individual.

F.E.R. "He that believeth on the Son of God hath

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the witness in himself;" then the witness to the Son in that God hath given to us eternal life.

W.M. It comes out in the saints.

F.E.R. In the circle.

W.M. And what is true of the circle is apprehended by each individual in the circle.

F.E.R. Yes, and it brings about unity because every condition will accentuate unity. You find that taken up in the two previous chapters; everything that comes out is employed by the Spirit to emphasise our obligation to love one another.

G.R. The thought of witness would be embodied in these words, "By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples if ye have love one to another". That would be pretty clearly seen.

F.E.R. That is what the Lord spoke of.

J.S.A. As the great hindrance to unity is the allowance of individual will, so attachment to Christ is the first great principle in producing it.

F.E.R. Yes, you get no love without righteousness. There must be attachment first. If you have not a centre or do not maintain your own proper relation to the centre, you will not be right in the circle. All being right in the circle depends on all being in relation to the centre.

R.S.S. So it is righteousness, faith, love, peace; righteousness comes first.

F.E.R. Always. A soldier pierced Christ's side and forthwith there came out blood and water. I think that is a wonderful statement; a wanton act of violence on the part of a soldier was answered by, "forthwith there came out blood and water". The blood witnesses to divine love and the water that the world was overcome.

W.B-s. Why does he speak there of bearing record to what has been seen, "He that saw it bare record"?

F.E.R. He saw it and understood its significance; it was not hearsay. He that saw it bare record.

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Ques. Is not John the only one that gives the moral significance of overcoming the world?

F.E.R. He is the one that gives that significance.

Ques. I was thinking of the verse in the earlier part of this chapter, "and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith". What is our faith?

F.E.R. "He that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God".

G.R. Can you give us a reason why the water is reversed in the epistle from the gospel in connection with the blood?

F.E.R. Because the epistle takes the order of the first two chapters, that is the moral order, the Spirit, the water and the blood. First we are brought into righteousness; then by the water into the christian circle, and the blood is the witness to the love of God.

J.S.A. The idea in the water and the blood here is not so much the efficacy as the teaching of it.

W.M. I suppose Noah's position was altogether altered by water.

F.E.R. No doubt it was. In a sense the water of death coming on the world was to him the means of salvation. So with the death of Christ; it is the destruction of the world as the world is, but to us it is the way of cleansing. That is, that we accept it and pass through it in baptism; it means you are buried; and if you are buried you have ceased to live in that in which we have been living, and that is the way you overcome the world; not by fighting against it. Take a christian in Congress or Parliament; he does not overcome; they overcome him. It is not the way by which Christ overcame the world; He overcame the world because He did not succumb to it. So it is in regard to us. I do not care to have reputation or to be thought something of according to the flesh. I have ceased to live in that order of things.

G.R. You are not anxious for a niche in the 'Hall of Fame'.

Ques. Does not Peter contemplate victory over the

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world when he says, "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us"?

F.E.R. Yes, it is in the same connection.

W.M. What is the significance of bringing in here verse 9, "if we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater". The witness of God is eternal life in the saints.

F.E.R. It is a great witness, not simply by word, but by what saints are, and what is found in them, it was a great witness at the beginning. The saints at the beginning, although they might not have been very intelligent, were really in the conditions which God had ordained. They were in the conditions, and the conditions were in them, and the witness was clear and distinct. They maintained that God had given to them eternal life but this life was in His Son. They would have said that they had the Son.

W.M. And it might have been said, "they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world".

F.E.R. Exactly. Unity was maintained, they even had all things common. None said that anything he had was his own. They were continuing steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and prayers. There was the witness that God gave to the Son. It was fulfilled.

Ques. "The witness of men"; was that the witness of the apostles themselves?

F.E.R. No. It is the witness of men abstractly. People do receive the witness of men.

W.M. I suppose the witness was there that God might say, 'that is My mind for all men'.

F.E.R. Exactly. But there is another important point, it is the witness that the Son of God has come. You cannot conceive of anything so important as that. Things are not as they were previous to the coming of the Son of God. It means that God is no more testing things, but the time has come when God is establishing everything. The centre has come on whom everything depends.

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So in the epistle to the Hebrews, "ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel". They are dependent on the Son of God having come.

J.S.A. In connection with the statement "Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?" I think the statement of the apostle Paul in Galatians is very interesting, "The life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me". He overcame the world.

G.W.H. By overcoming it, do you mean you are dead to it?

F.E.R. Overcoming it means that it does not overcome you.

G.W.H. Like you get in chapter 6 of Galatians, "But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world".

F.E.R. Exactly. That is, the apostle held the world crucified, and the world held the apostle crucified. The world did not overcome him, but he overcame the world, The way in which you overcome the world is by ceasing to live in it. People who attempt to set the world right will be themselves set wrong.

Rem. The more one grows the more you find it is difficult to live on earth and not live in the world.

F.E.R. It is difficult. It is a great thing where you have not anything to maintain.

J.S.A. Even religiously.

F.E.R. Religiously, socially or any way. No rights, no character, no reputation or anything to maintain.

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W.M. A person of that character would scarcely get a monument in the world when dead.

G.R. I suppose Stephen was an example.

F.E.R. But he died to it.

G.W.H. I suppose your having no interest here is because they are all transferred up there.

F.E.R. Exactly, Christ has died to the world.

W.M. I suppose it is by something more positive than death; it is by coming into the light of another world.

F.E.R. Yes. If you were not in the light of Christ you would not be prepared to accept death to the world. If you have come into the light of the moral universe of which Christ is the centre you accept death to the world; for in which world are you going to be conspicuous? In this or in God's world?

J.S.A. And that is better than any monument here.

Ques. Is that the substance of Philippians 3, "That I may know him"?

F.E.R. Yes. Do you think the apostle went and told everyone he was a Pharisee and the son of a Pharisee? He broke down when he talked that way, later on he rejects it.

G.R. It comes out in the gospel, where the Lord tells them who was the greatest; He took a little child.

F.E.R. That is where we have to come to. If we want to be the greatest in God's world we have to serve one another. You go through the world 'as hireling fills his day', not taking advantage of any position in the world to magnify yourself. You have ceased to live in the world.

R.S.S. When you were last in this country I remember you were saying, you took account of yourself not before men but before God, and I think that was helpful to many of us.

F.E.R. Yes. The Lord, with every possible right and title down here, made nothing of Himself. He did not come into the world in connection with the high-born; but was known as the carpenter's son.

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W.B-t. Is there not such a thing as deciding this matter for oneself?

F.E.R. I think so.

Rem. I am afraid we keep up a good many things that ought to go into the dust bin.

F.E.R. Very likely. The poor are better off in that way because they cannot talk much about friends or position. I do not think that you can much realise cleansing from the world except in the christian circle. It is there you realise that you belong to another order of things and in connection with that your thought is to be efficient. I like a man that is efficient, but the sort of efficiency one would appreciate is efficiency in the christian circle.

J.P. I suppose the washing of regeneration comes in there.

F.E.R. Exactly. "He saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit".

J.S.A. A man must live in one world or the other.

F.E.R. Yes, it is evident that people try to live in both. I do not think they succeed.

G.E. Does not that scripture in Titus emphasise that salvation is connected with the present?

F.E.R. Yes, but salvation really lies in the christian circle.

G.R. I mean it is not for eternity.

F.E.R. No; it is salvation from the world, and the power that works in the world, and that is realised in the christian circle, where Christ is; and baptism brings you into that; and I have no doubt that is why the figure of water is employed here; Christ came by water.

J.S.A. But if a man is brought into it by baptism he must live in it to be in the good of salvation.

G.R. And that is where the renewing of the Spirit comes in; that is clearly for the present.

F.E.R. I think so.

W.M. What is the force of the three expressions in the end of chapter 5, "we know", "we know", "we know"?

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F.E.R. It is a summing up.

W.M. You spoke of chapters three and four giving the substance of eternal life. What does chapter five give, the end itself?

F.E.R. It gives the witness. If we have the substance, the point is that we should be here in witness. Supposing God has given us everything, what are we going to be for God? Witness. God will have a witness here to His Son because the Son has come, and the church is left in that place.

Ques. I would like to ask in connection with petitioning here, does that come in in reference to the bearing of witness, "if we ask anything"?

F.E.R. The apostle shows us how the confidence we have in Him expresses itself.

J.S.A. Speaking of "the witness", do you think it comes in in connection with the gospel, that you should point to the witnesses in that way?

F.E.R. The apostles could point to the saints. Christians were known. The word of God sounded out from the church through the whole world. They were witnesses to the Son in that way. It was not that they preached it, but morally it sounded out from them.

J.P. That is, the anointed vessel set the oracles in vibration.

F.E.R. That is it exactly. The temple and the oracles were there, and the light was set in vibration by the gifts in the body.

Rem. The present condition of the witness hinders the gospel.

F.E.R. Largely. People wonder why there are not better effects from the preaching of the gospel. I say it is because of the state of the witness.

W.M. It gives one a sense of the weakness there is.

F.E.R. Yes. The gospel preachers are not concerned enough about the witness.

J.P. I think what you say, we are very little impressed with the fact that the Son of God has come.

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F.E.R. And the reason we are so little impressed is because of the poverty of the witness. The word of God sounded out in the early days. How poorly it is sounding out now!

Ques. Do you think God is accomplishing His purposes largely independent of the feeble witness?

F.E.R. I cannot tell. God will surely accomplish His purposes. There is no doubt it is the end of the dispensation, and what is going on now is largely the gathering in of the fragments that remain, that nothing be lost. I do not think striking results are likely to be seen. A kind of sorting is going on, like as in the net brought in, and there is gathering the good into vessels and casting away the bad.

J.S.A. If we are sensible of the weakness of the witness, all we can do is to see to it that we are in the good of the thing ourselves.

F.E.R. What I would strongly object to is an effort to set up a small witness. You must admit the circle is broken and obscured, but all we can do is individually to keep ourselves right in relation to the centre.

W.M. The Son of God has come.

F.E.R. Yes, and we are not lawless; we are in attachment.

Ques. Do we get the correction of that in 2 Timothy?

F.E.R. I think so, and in that way you seek to be a vessel unto honour sanctified and meet for the Master's use and prepared unto every good work. You are in attachment and so it is you follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, not with the entire circle, but with those that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

G.R. Is it not illustrated in the remnant in Malachi, "they that feared the Lord", that is attachment, "spake often one to another", they had the circle in a sense?

Ques. And is it not also alluded to in Luke 2 where the remnant were waiting for the Redeemer?

F.E.R. I think so. Of course there is always a difficulty, in connection with the church, in speaking of a

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remnant. In Israel the remnant really consisted of all the godly. Now brethren are not a remnant because there are a great many really in the church who are not among brethren. We are so liable to get into a kind of brethrenism. You must recognise the entire circle. We can stand in our relation to the centre.

W.M. So the only company we could recognise in Indianapolis is all the christians in Indianapolis.

F.E.R. Quite so. You cannot have an inner circle.

J.F. What would answer to us would be, "Keep yourselves in the love of God".

F.E.R. Yes. You get the Holy Spirit, God and Christ. You pray in the Holy Spirit; you keep yourselves in the love of God, and look for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

W.B-s. How about going along with those who profess to be in the principles of 2 Timothy 2?

F.E.R. I think the only way to get on according to the passage you quote is to be right in relation to the centre. The apostle says, "Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee". The point is to look to yourself and the doctrine. I suppose if every one of us had that in mind it would be better.

G.W.H. And to know Him that is true, in contrast with all the failure around.

F.E.R. Quite so.

R.M.L. Would you say a word about calling on the Lord out of a pure heart?

F.E.R. You look for people in whom there is a work of God. You cannot take people up simply on the ground of profession. You must follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart. It appears to me that a pure heart is evidence of a work of God. You must look for that now.

R.M.L. A christian in system might say he called on the Lord out of a pure heart.

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F.E.R. But he is not right as to the centre. He connects Christ with this world, but Christ is the centre of another world. He is, so far, lawless, in his own sense of things. Christ is the beginning and centre morally of another world.

J.S.A. It is not what a man says he is, but what he really is, and you must form a judgment of that if you are going to walk with him.

W.B-s. How does individual service stand in regard to the circle?

F.E.R. I think it is simple. We do all we can to serve one another and indeed serve everybody.

G.W.H. "Let us do good unto all men, especially to them who are of the household of faith".

Ques. What claim have those in the church who are lawless, on the servants?

F.E.R. You must be a little careful about their being lawless, because except as to their intelligence and conduct, you cannot speak of that. If I speak of a man as being lawless that man is not in attachment at all. I could not speak of every man with whom I cannot walk as being lawless absolutely.

Ques. Well then servants are servants of the entire church. Then what claim have christians in system on the servants of God?

F.E.R. Every claim. The responsibility of the servant is toward all. You are bound to serve every christian.

O.O'B. You do not mean by that, if those in a system claimed me to go in and preach the gospel in their system, that I should go.

F.E.R. I know that question has been raised. The best answer I ever heard given was by Mr. Darby. He objected to going into chapels because it did not appear to him quite honest; for if he went and preached there what he desired to preach, it would have the effect of bringing the chapel about people's ears, and he did not feel it was quite honest.

O.O'B. Well he told me another thing in regard to

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his going into them in Chicago. 'I did go, but I will never go again'. He believed the whole thing was wrong.

F.E.R. I have heard him take that ground in regard to America. You cannot build again the things you have destroyed. So as to preaching in theatres; the theatre managers are well pleased to get preaching in the theatres because it puts a sanction on the theatre; and people argue in the same way. I have no doubt whatever that the mass of people if they saw preachers in the theatres would argue, they do not think so badly about the theatres. It is a mistake to make use of such places for the work of the Lord.

Rem. The situation is difficult.

F.E.R. It is difficult. In the peculiar position we occupy in relation to christendom, our path is difficult and nothing but divine guidance can keep us right in the path. It is a fatal mistake for people to think they are coming out to an easy path.

Ques. What do you think of going into the street?

F.E.R. I think the street is as good as any place if it is open to you. I would not care to go if it meant having an altercation with the authorities, but if the street or any place is free there is nothing morally against it. My reason against theatres is a moral one, but there is nothing moral against the street or any open place.

W.M. You would hardly accept a permit from a magistrate to do it.

F.E.R. I think that is hardly the thing. You do not want the protection of the world.

J.S.A. But if the path is difficult it is equally true that God will carry out His purposes no matter what the difficulties.

Rem. I think we would all have liked to live in a time when things were easy.

F.E.R. You are not likely to get things easy at the end of a dispensation.

O.O'B. There are difficulties about a permit. For

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instance a man would stand up with a Bible in his hand and begin to preach and he is simply preaching nihilism or communism. The authorities of Chicago said, 'We want to stop that, and if any of you want to preach the gospel you must get a permit because we want to stop these other things'.

F.E.R. But you are making the world judge of right and wrong. I do not care about the world's judgment, but I think I see what you mean. If anybody chooses to get a permit in that way I would not object.

J.P. Because it is the very thing to save you from an altercation with the authorities. It leaves you in quietness and peace to preach the gospel.

J.S.A. You have to get permission in some places abroad to hold any kind of a meeting.

F.E.R. If it is a question of government and order I do not see any objection to it.

G.R. It is not exactly seeking the protection of the government.

Rem. I think in many places they have these permits to maintain order.

F.E.R. I do not see any difficulty about it then. I do not think brethren want to get the renown of being disorderly.

R.S.S. Would you say a word as to the closing verses, the true God and eternal life?

F.E.R. Christ is both. He is the true God and He is the Sun of righteousness, and I defy anybody to draw a line between Christ as God and Christ as Man, as you get Him presented in this epistle. The two are so blended. The same One who is the last Adam, the Sun of righteousness, is divine.

J.P. You can only understand the language in the epistle as you recognise what you have said.

W.M. "We are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ".

F.E.R. You are in God. It is one of the beauties of John's epistle. The truth of the incarnation is that a

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divine Person in the Godhead has assumed manhood. I believe the old notion of the union of God and man to be wrong. I do not think it was meant wrongly, but, in the light of what has come out now, it was incorrect. What I do believe is, what Scripture states, that a divine Person in the unity of the Godhead assumed manhood, never ceasing by it to be a divine Person and in the unity of the Godhead.

J.S.A. That is a very important point that is often overlooked.

F.E.R. It is not a moral impossibility that He should assume another condition, that is, the condition of manhood, but He never could cease to be in the unity of the Godhead.

W.M. So when it says God is a spirit, it means Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

F.E.R. Yes, and Jesus, the true God, means God revealed.

G.R. So that if He were not still in the unity of the Godhead we should not know God.

F.E.R. "The only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him", that is, declared God.

W.B-s. Why is this last admonition brought in here, "Little children, keep yourselves from idols"?

F.E.R. The point is, "We are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life". I think I can understand the admonition to keep yourselves from idols. The fact is, Christ will have undivided authority in the heart, and therefore you have to be uncommonly careful lest you cherish any kind of idol; a child, your house, your business may be an idol.

J.W.P. What is an idol?

F.E.R. A child, or business or anything else may be an idol.

J.W.P. We have in the Dutch a good expression, something that keeps you away from God.

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F.E.R. I think it is something that disputes the authority of Christ.

Ques. What is the meaning of this expression, "We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not"; does it mean, does not practise sin?

F.E.R. Yes, he does not practise sin.

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ABIDING IN CHRIST AND BEARING FRUIT

Genesis 49:8 - 12; Isaiah 5:1 - 7; John 15:1 - 27

A good many of us have realised the importance of regarding Christ as the centre of a system. Very much as the sun is the centre of the solar system. But I prefer rather the thought of a system consisting of a number of circles, what one might call concentric, of which Christ is the common centre. I think that is seen in the Scripture. The apostle prayed that Christ the centre might dwell in the hearts of the saints by faith. Then they could look out, so to speak, from the centre and apprehend with all saints the breadth and length and depth and height, that is, the whole extent, so to speak, of the system of which Christ was the centre. Then there was another thing, that they might "know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge". What I think that means is that the whole system is to be pervaded by Christ. The love of Christ is the principle which will pervade the entire system. It is an extraordinary idea, but it is presented to us in Scripture.

We can take it in if we view the world in the light of a moral system; but what prevails in that system? Certainly not what is of God. You find other principles in the system in which we are. We have been born into the world and are accustomed to the prevalence of these principles, but they are not of God. The apostle John tells us in a passage which is familiar, that, "All that is in the world", what else is there? "All" includes everything. "The lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father". Whatever may be the source of it, the Father is not. I have no doubt other influences have been at work in the world, which, to a certain extent, have counteracted these principles, but after all, they are the great influences that obtain in the world system. We see in contrast to

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this, another system in view, the centre of which is Christ; and around Christ many circles, and when that system is displayed what will fill it will be Christ. Love is the contrast to lust. Lust seeks its own gratification at the expense of its objects; love, on the other hand, will spend itself for the good of its objects. The two principles are opposed. Now, I think that line of thought has come pretty much into our view. What I want to impress upon all who have understanding, is the extreme importance of our being maintained in relation to the centre of the system. That is, to appreciate that in the thought of God we do not belong to the world system. The Lord said of the disciples, "they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world". I am speaking to believers, and as believers we most certainly do not belong to the world system. We belong to Christ. Christ is our centre. We are brought into relation, I may say into attachment, to Christ, by the Spirit of God, and we should be diligent and anxious that we may be intelligently maintained in our relation to Him as the centre of the system. The time will come when that system will be set forth in glory; every thought of God has relation to it; He has been speaking of it for thousands of years in detail, and the moment will arrive when it will be brought into view; there will be made manifest in that day, what is not manifest now, the relation in which we stand to the centre of that system. We have been brought into the light of that centre, and our point is, according to the admonition which we get here, to abide in Him; that is, that the sense of our relation to Him may be maintained in us intelligently by the Spirit, so that He becomes light and direction to us down here, and instead of acting on the impulse of our own will or under the influence of man here, we are controlled by the influence of Christ. The result would be that we should bring forth fruit. I am going to take up in that connection the thought of fruit-bearing. It may be interesting to trace it through

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Scripture. I have read Isaiah 5, for we have presented to us there by the prophet what God had been doing. He presents to us a figure, that is, the house of Israel as a vineyard. Then God planted in the vineyard the choicest vine, and He tells us what the vine was, that is, the men of Judah were His pleasant plant, and God looked for fruit. We see there that the vineyard was the house of Israel, and the men of Judah the vine.

Now the passage in Genesis which I read brings before us a very important point, that is that the genealogy belongs to Judah. The sceptre was not to depart from Judah till Shiloh came. In the ways of God in regard to Israel the birthright belonged to Joseph, and the genealogy to Judah, and it is in Judah the genealogy is maintained, for Christ is the true Judah. Christ is Judah morally. If you read the detail given in the blessing of Jacob, you could not refer what is said there to the literal Judah, that is, the son of Jacob. You can refer it to the true Judah, that is Christ, and it is in Christ that the genealogy is maintained. The genealogy of Israel would have fallen through if it had not been for Christ. There will not be much difficulty in regard to the genealogy when God takes up Israel again, because God has made provision that in Christ the genealogy should be maintained. Now not only did Christ spring from Judah, but He is the true Judah, and that throws light on John 15. He is the true vine, because He is the true Judah. Judah was God's pleasant plant. God took them up provisionally, and put them in the place of a vine, but it was provisional, and they did not bring forth fruit. We get at the close of the chapter, that instead of judgment, there was oppression, and instead of righteousness, a cry. There was no fruit for God. But in John 15, not simply have we the One who has sprung from Judah, although that is maintained, but we get the true Judah, the true pleasant plant, and so the Lord says, "I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman". The Lord is speaking here simply to the disciples. If we had only this chapter we should find it

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difficult to make an application to ourselves. It is other parts of the same gospel which enable us to make such an application. Literally the chapter is addressed to those who immediately surrounded the Lord, for even when He was here upon earth He was the centre of a company. He had yet to ascend far above all heavens to fill all things. You may say the circle was a small one. It was so, but it was none the less a circle, and Christ was the centre; in this chapter He takes up the figure of a vine and the branches. He was the vine, and the disciples branches, and the secret of fruit-bearing was in abiding in Christ. We find that coming out in the disciples. They bore fruit, but the source of the fruit was not found in the branches. The vine was the source of all that was agreeable to God. When they went about as the Lord directed them, the source of all that they did was Christ, and what they did was fruit for God. That is the thought of the vine and the branches. It was a relation that only subsisted for a short time comparatively, for the Lord did not remain here in the place of the vine very long. He may have that place hereafter, but what He speaks of in the early part of the chapter was His then place here upon earth and the relation of the disciples to Himself.

I will point out a few thoughts that appear in the chapter. Read verses 7, 9, 11, 15 - 17. Now in verse 7 the figure of the vine is dropped. That thought goes on to verse 6, where it says, "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned". Then it is, "If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you". No doubt the Lord contemplated the change shortly to come in, when they would no longer abide in Him as the vine, when that order of things would come to an end; but still He would be a centre, and in that light they were to continue in Him. It is a great point to abide in Christ; we see that in a very distinct way in the apostles. We have only to read attentively the beginning of the Acts of the Apostles to see how they really abode in Christ. I do not

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think that they did anything of themselves, they did not trust their own wisdom or judgment. They trusted Christ and He was wisdom to them, and they were completely under His control. They realised that Christ was their centre, and they were in attachment to Christ by the Spirit, and the consequence was, that they were entirely guided and directed by Christ. They continued in Him. He was the source to them of light and wisdom, and His words continued in them. You get the same principle in relationships of this life. When a woman marries, she sacrifices, so to speak, her own head, and her husband becomes head to her. From that point and onward she no longer acts of her own motion. Her husband is wisdom to her. That is the idea of the relation of husband and wife; in accepting a husband a woman has accepted a head, and from that point, let her be as skilful and wise as she may, she has come under the direction of a head, and it would be right that his words should abide in her. A wife would not be unmindful of the words of her husband. I think that illustrates the relation in which the disciples were to Christ. He was their husband; they were married to Him by the Spirit, and from that point and onward they accepted Him as Head. He was to control them in their service and His words to continue in them. I have no need to describe how that was carried out and the wonderful power of the apostles down here. There was hardly such a commotion in the history of the world. They conquered nothing by human means. They had not silver nor gold, and yet they exercised the greatest influence that ever was exercised here upon earth; these poor men, fishermen, men of no acquirements, who had never been to college nor had any training, had Christ as Head to them, they continued in Christ, and the wisdom of Christ was at their disposal, and the effect of it was amazing. It was said in regard to them, "These that have turned the world upside down". All the world was afraid of them. How did they turn the world upside down? Simply because they abode in Christ; and His words abode in them.

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But there is another point, they continued in His love, and His joy continued in them. There was a reciprocity about it. The eye of the Lord was upon all that the apostles did, and His joy abode in them. They had to encounter opposition and contrariety of every kind, yet their joy was full because His joy abode in them; and if we abode in Christ, and continued in His love, His joy would be in us, and our joy would be full. The one is the consequence of the other, if Christ has His joy in us, of necessity our joy would be full.

I am quite prepared to admit the application of these things to the apostles, and others would admit that also. The last two verses I read prove it. "All things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you. Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you". That could hardly be applied to any but the apostles. The primary and literal application of these verses was to them; the Lord treated them like friends, and had chosen them for the purpose that they should bring forth fruit and that their fruit should abide. In the thought of their fruit, you get the idea of continuance. We are all the fruit of the apostles in a sense, the fruit of their labour. Now in John 17 in the first part the Lord prayed specially for the apostles, but the Lord goes on to say, "Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word". I think that brings in the idea of extension; the same thought of continuance and extension as in the idea of the apostles' fruit abiding. I do not think the Lord contemplated what you might call any real change in this chapter. Some people think there has been a development in christianity. I do not think Christ contemplated that. I have heard it said by christians that things which were practicable in early days are scarcely practicable now. Circumstances and times have so changed, that what was suitable at the outset is scarcely suitable

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now, but the Lord contemplated nothing of that kind.

He contemplated continuance and extension, but the extension was to have no different character from that which was originally established. "Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word", and if they believed on Him through that word, they were not to be differently directed from what the apostles were. What guided the apostles was to guide those who should believe on Christ through their word. Now what came to pass was that the thought of abiding in Christ passed away, as christianity became influenced by the world; it has been said that the purest rain from heaven, when it comes to earth, becomes mud; so, pure as christianity was in the first instance, when it came in contact with man, it became corrupted by the world. What followed was the accommodation of christianity to the world as it is, with the rule and authority of man. Popery is the outcome of it. All sense of abiding in Christ was lost, and for many a long year there was very little fruit for God. There may have been here and there pious people who abode in Christ and in whom the words of Christ abode, but these were obscure; possibly in them the truth was maintained, but in christendom in general all true idea of things was completely lost. What remains to us is to go back to what originally was, for on the part of God things have not altered a bit. If you read this chapter attentively, and compare it with what you see in the christian world, there is little in common. But the revelation of God stands good. Christ is still at the right hand of God. There is no alteration there. The Spirit is still here. Those who believe are attached by the Spirit to Christ in heaven; on the part of God nothing whatever has varied, and there is the greatest encouragement to go back to what was at the outset. The vine is not upon earth; that particular phase of things has passed away for the time being, but we have a centre in heaven. There is no centre in this world, What will come to pass in this

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world will be nation rising against nation and kingdom against kingdom, because there is no centre. There was a man some years ago, I refer to Napoleon, who sought to bring the whole Western world under his dominion, to become the centre to it, but he passed away in exile and there is no centre; but I see that at the right hand of God there is the One who is the centre of that system to which God is bound, and which God will in due time display. God is the same, and Christ is the same. The Spirit is still here and every believer in Christ is joined to Christ by the Spirit. It would be a great service if the Spirit of God brought us individually back to the sense of our relation to Christ, apart from the world. We are married to Him who is raised from the dead that we might bring forth fruit unto God; God intends to establish a world according to His mind, and every part of that world will be on the ground of resurrection. Death is not to dominate in that world, and so it must be on the ground of resurrection. Christ is risen; all for heaven will have been raised; Israel nationally will have been raised; the nations will be revived; every part will be set forth on the principle of resurrection, so that all may be in accord with Christ, and that death may no longer rule. Now if we are married to another, the first principle with us must be fidelity. That is the first principle of a wife in regard to her husband. Then the next principle is that, as in the case of a wife, you come under the influence of Christ's love. The wife comes under the influence of the love of the husband; love is a formative power. Depend upon it, we are greatly affected by it. I do not think the unreasonableness and perverseness in man is broken down by anything like the love of Christ. When the Lord was surrounded by the twelve disciples they all fell under the influence of His love, and it had a mighty effect upon them. It was not seen just at the moment, or even immediately after the Lord died, but it was after the Holy Spirit came. They were prepared to sacrifice their lives for Christ. The Spirit of God put them in relation to a risen Christ, and the

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result was they brought forth fruit unto God. They were not in the current of this world. In spirit and heart they were outside it. The world to them was Judaism, and they were outside of that, married to another who was outside of it, and yet doing good in this world. People do not do much good in this world according to God until they are outside of it. It is in being married to Christ that they bring forth fruit. When Peter and John said, "In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk", they were doing great good in this world, but it was the effect of being married to another, to Him that was raised from the dead. Another effect was that they were not afraid of death. Stephen was not afraid of death. Why not? Because they were married to Him that was raised from the dead, and that assured their resurrection. The Lord Jesus said, "I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live; and whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die". The same will apply to us if we are conscious of being married to the One raised from the dead. Of necessity we would be fearless. When the Lord comes out as the resurrection and the life, people will not die.

I say these things that we may realise the importance of getting back to first principles. I have no doubt many of us are hindered by the fear of man, we want to be delivered from that. It would be a great thing for us all if we had in our vision only one Man, We want to maintain fidelity. To have one Man in view, and from the fact that He is all to us we bring forth fruit unto God. The Lord loves His people, and because of that intercedes for us. How is it we have been kept at all? How is it we have maintained our profession? I have no doubt it is because of the grace and service of Christ. We have been kept by the power of God through faith, as the effect of the intercession of Christ. He intercedes for us at the right hand of God, and sympathises with and maintains us that we may hold fast our profession. The apostle says in Romans 8, "Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?" Every

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service that Christ carries out for His people is the effect of love for His people, and the Lord will have us kept conscious of His love, with the effect that we abide in Him and look to Him for direction in all things here.

One more word and I have done, that is, 'fruit is extremely important as being the evidence of healthy vitality. If there be healthy vitality there is bound to be fruit-bearing, and fruit-bearing is grateful in the eye of God.