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READING ONE

Zechariah 1:7 - 21; Zechariah 2

G.R.C. It is in mind in reading this book, to consider the grace and the government of God in days of recovery, and to see how God coordinates His operations of grace and government in order to reach the divine end, the divine end being indicated in the last chapter of the book where it says, "Jehovah shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Jehovah, and his name one", chapter 14: 9. The Old Testament prophets had as their objective the world to come, and the earth, but these scriptures are written for our instruction, and as Christians we have in view heaven and earth, and the day of eternity, when God will be all in all. God is operating both in grace and in government to bring those who have returned from captivity into the fulness of His thoughts, so that there might even now be a response which will give Him the foretaste of what He will have in that eternal day.

In the first vision the matter of government is introduced first, so that we might be settled in our minds about that, in a general way; and then the great objective is brought forward, that is Jerusalem. While the immediate matter in view was the building of the house, God brings forward His great objective, Jerusalem, which is typical of God's complete thought as to the assembly in Christ Jesus, including, of course, His abode, but embracing everything proper to the city of the great King; for it is in and through this city that He will be known as the great King both in the world to come and, I suppose, in the

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eternal day. He has nothing less before Him than the full thought of the assembly, and He would help us, as returned captives, to embrace His full thought. Then, as the chapter proceeds, there is another view of the gentile powers, the four horns that scatter; but we are shown that they are defeated by the four craftsmen. In chapter 2 the man goes forth to measure Jerusalem and the prophet is told that it is to be inhabited and that God will dwell there. So it is a comprehensive vision to prepare us for what follows.

A.E.M. "I am jealous for Jerusalem and for Zion with a great jealousy", Zechariah 1:14. It is an unfolding of the heart of God; it is a great comfort to us.

G.R.C. That is very precious. Jealousy would flow from His heart. His love lies behind it.

G.M.S. Is government brought forward first because of the poor state of the people at this time?

G.R.C. They had been deterred from building through opposition on the part of the authorities, brought about by their enemies, but, as a result of the prophecies of Haggai and Zechariah, they did not wait for a further message from the king; they started to build, and then God moved the authorities in their favour. This prophecy was in the four and twentieth day of the eleventh month. They had already been stirred by the prophetic word, and had already begun to build and now God assures them that government is under control, so that they should go forward without fear.

W.W.S. Would this word in verse 8 "I saw by night, and behold, a man riding upon a red horse, and he stood among the myrtle trees that were in the low valley" in any way link up with the position outlined for us at the end of Matthew, the Galilean position, but where the Lord says all power has been given me in heaven and upon earth?

G.R.C. That is exactly what I think. It is by night. When the day dawns direct government will be in

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the hands of Christ, but during the night, while God is not governing directly, He nevertheless maintains complete control by indirect providential operations which faith can take account of. So he says, "I saw by night, and behold". It is what faith beholds. We are living in the night, in this sense, the day has not dawned, but we behold, we are given light as to a man riding upon a red horse, and he stood among the myrtle trees. As you say, it is a type of Christ as the One who says, "Behold, I am with you all the days, until the completion of the age", Matthew 28:20. He stood among the myrtle trees. You were thinking that the myrtle trees in the low valley would represent the saints?

W.W.S. I thought it stressed the lowly position marking the saints as set out in Galilee.

G.R.C. I think so. And what a lowly position ours is, as having returned from captivity. Outwardly the Christian profession is in a state of apostasy, but there is everything needed to maintain those who view things aright and are preserved in lowliness. The Lord is with such, "Behold, I am with you all the days"; and "where two or three are gathered together unto my name, there am I in the midst of them", Matthew 18:20. How lowly the position of the two or three!

S.McC. Does it help to see that government runs through all dispensations in the ways of God and is always against evil, but for the promotion of what is good?

G.R.C. That should ever be in our minds as the great principle of God's government.

A.P.C.L. So that the first reference to God's government in this chapter is in relation to the people, is it not, as He reviews their history in the previous section? What he had said had come to pass. Do you think that we have to view the powers that be as definitely set in relation to the carrying through of

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what God has in mind, even governmentally, for His saints?

G.R.C. So that He uses them to carry out governmental discipline upon His saints. That is a solemn matter is it not?

A.E.M. Is it striking that where faith is not in exercise the government is not favourable to the saints?

G.R.C. That is good. But as soon as faith was exercised by the returned captives, the government became favourable. That would encourage us to go forward in faith, having God's objective as our objective.

A.E.M. The basis of God's operations must be faith in us.

G.R.C. Faith would lay hold of what God is doing now, would it not? So that we should be fellow-workmen, moving together in relation to God's chief interest. And then God will overrule in His providential government to help forward the work. But if we depart from that, and become occupied with our own houses, as in Haggai 1:4, and depart from God's prime interest, God will use the authorities in discipline. Here in the vision the power that had been used primarily in discipline is not seen; the discipline had done its work, in one sense. There were the three powers left, Persia, Greece and Rome. But they were all behind the man riding upon a red horse. That is, they could make no movement without the man who was in front of them. Angels and principalities and powers are subject to Christ.

S.McC. And is it not interesting that all the answers to enquiries at this point come from the man that stood among the myrtle trees? Verse 9: "My lord, what are these? then the angel that talked with me said unto me, I will show thee what these are. And the man that stood among the myrtle trees answered and said". He gives the answer. I thought perhaps

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there was an allusion to the mind of God coming out as the saints are found in the position represented by the myrtle trees.

G.R.C. Very good. Did not Mr. Taylor help us much in our view of the authorities, that they are really a department of God. "The man that stood among the myrtle trees answered and said, These are they whom Jehovah hath sent to walk to and fro through the earth". That is faith's view of them, a remarkable thing.

W.H. Would the myrtle trees have reference to the saints as recovered to the truth, something evergreen and precious before God?

G.R.C. I think so, as in a suitable state of soul, in the low valley, and as thus having the Lord among them. Matthew visualises a position such as this right until the end of the age. Where two or three are gathered together to His name there He is in the midst of them. But then the One who is in the midst of them is the One to whom all power has been committed in heaven and upon earth. All powers are under His control, and He gives us light as to them. These are they whom Jehovah has sent to walk to and fro through the earth. It would give us respect for the powers without fearing them.

E.B.L. So the two or three have all power behind them?

G.R.C. Quite so. The One who is in their midst is the One to whom all authority, or power, in heaven and earth is given.

F.M. Referring to Matthew 16, the Lord speaks of building His assembly and says, the gates of hades shall not prevail against it. Is that in view of all the powers of evil that were set against the Lord's operations. Here it is what the saints are actively engaged in. Powers may oppose, but, in the government of God, things are held in our favour.

G.R.C. The gates of hades are always active to get

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control of the authorities. They are active in other ways to make inroads among the saints themselves; but we see, in the course of history, that the gates of hades ever scheme to get the authorities under their control, and thus to use them as persecuting powers against the saints. But, as you say, the gates of hades shall not prevail against the assembly. If our state is right and the Lord is in our midst, we have the One in our midst who is really in control. Faith sees Him to be in control of all these things.

J.McK. Do you view the word "the earth sitteth still and is at rest" as all that is providentially favourable?

G.R.C. It says, "they answered the angel of Jehovah that stood among the myrtle trees, and said", showing that they were responsible to the angel of Jehovah that stood among the myrtle trees. It shows what a place Christ has in this sphere. And they say, "We have walked to and fro through the earth, and behold, all the earth sitteth still and is at rest". And then that leads to intercession. I suppose this is a backward view, it would refer to the time before the captives had been set free. Babylon had carried them away captive, and had oppressed them; and instead of the authorities, who were responsible to God, whether they knew it or not, being concerned about Jerusalem, the whole earth was sitting still and was at rest. And so the angel of Jehovah intercedes and says, "Jehovah of hosts, How long wilt thou not have mercy on Jerusalem and on the cities of Judah, against which thou hast had indignation these seventy years?" And Jehovah answers the intercession. It may be we could regard that as the intercession of Christ Himself.

A.R. Would what you say as to the authorities be an incentive to us to pray for them according to 1 Timothy 2?

G.R.C. I think the two lines we are engaged with, that is, God's activities in grace and in government,

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should be known to us in such a manner that we can pray intelligently about both. And one has felt concerned as to how small one's own intelligence is in praying for kings and all that are in dignity.

G.M.S. Please help us on that line -- how to pray intelligently for those who are in authority.

G.R.C. I am thinking especially of praying for them relative to God's operations in grace; and so here we have an intercession, "How long wilt thou not have mercy on Jerusalem and on the cities of Judah?" An intervention in government on God's part was needed. "And Jehovah answered the angel that talked with me good words, comforting words. And the angel that talked with me said unto me, Cry, saying, thus saith Jehovah of hosts: I am jealous for Jerusalem and for Zion with a great jealousy, and I am wroth exceedingly with the nations that are at ease; for I was but a little wroth, and they helped forward the affliction. Therefore thus saith Jehovah: I am returned to Jerusalem with mercies; my house shall be built in it, saith Jehovah of hosts, and the line shall be stretched forth upon Jerusalem", verses 13 - 17 -- and then further He refers to the cities. So that the answer to the intercession was that God had returned to Jerusalem with mercies. But the way that operated, in actual fact, was that the Persian power overthrew Babylon, which was thought to be an invincible city, in one night, and Belshazzar the king of the Chaldeans was slain. This made way, in due course, for Cyrus, who was a subject of Isaiah's prophecy to come forward and release the captives and to issue the decree that the house of God in Jerusalem should be rebuilt.

J.S.E. Is it significant that, following the fall of Babylon, Daniel is brought into relief with his windows open towards Jerusalem? Does that link on with the thought of appreciating God's government, that he would keep his eye on Jerusalem whatever the outward circumstances might be?

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G.R.C. I think that. So that if we are to be intelligent in praying for kings and those that are in authority we have to keep our eye on Jerusalem. It is a question of what God is going to do for Jerusalem; that is, the assembly. He is determined that at the close of the dispensation there should be saints on earth who are empowered by the Spirit to lay hold of His full thoughts as to the assembly. That is what He is operating for. And it is a question of being intelligent in our prayers for kings and those that are in dignity with that in view. Our eye is on Jerusalem; what is God going to do for Jerusalem? He has sent out these powers. "These are they whom Jehovah hath sent to walk to and fro through the earth". But He has sent them out relative to Jerusalem.

A.P.C.L. So that in the history of Daniel, when he is so concerned about matters, it is interesting to see how the angel speaks in regard to being in the court of Persia, and being withstood there for one and twenty days, Michael coming and helping him. Is that the inside view of what God does in relation to powers? That is unfolded, is it not, to Daniel, a man exercised about how things are going to be carried through?

G.R.C. Very good. Jerusalem was Daniel's centre, and he received light, as you say, as to what lay behind God's operations and providential government. Could you say any more about these persons you referred to?

A.P.C.L. We have no access to political matters in our own time, but God has access to them. And I thought, in the detailed way in which the operations of the angel are unfolded to Daniel in his exercise, it would keep him perfectly restful in the sense that the struggle is not against flesh and blood but that these powers are being held in check angelically by powers of good on behalf of the saints.

G.R.C. Quite so. So that we may look at this further when we come to chapter 6. It says in chapter 6: 5,

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referring to the four Gentile monarchies, "These are the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth". That is, the view point in this book is not so much what the monarchies are in themselves, as in Daniel 7 where they are seen as wild beasts, but as instruments used by God. The four spirits of the heavens suggest the Divine energy of providential government behind and controlling these powers.

A.H.D. Would a knowledge of the government of God in this way tend to preserve the saints in tranquility of mind in relation to all that is transpiring amongst men and nations, so that we might be understanding and free in our spirits to take account of what God is doing, and the great end to which He is working, and to be with Him in it?

G.R.C. Exactly. I would think we need to be with God as to what He is doing at this moment, especially as regards the rulers of the great powers. The U.S.A., the British Commonwealth and Russia would be in our thoughts as to how God may use them relative to Jerusalem, to the assembly, because we would desire that our brethren in every land might be set free to work out the great truth suggested in Jerusalem, and to have liberty to dwell in their cities, the local settings.

S.McC. So that this spirit of intercession is very important, as bearing on matters of associations and trade unions, and the relation of the authorities to them. Perhaps there is need for greater intensification of the spirit of intercession that a way may be made for the conscience of the people of God.

G.R.C. You are feeling that if there were more intercession we could count on God using the authorities against these things; because they are really not only a challenge to the saints, they are a challenge to government.

J.McK. Does Daniel bring out so definitely that

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God has a moral basis for His intervention in such men as Himself, in the service of intercession?

G.R.C. Quite so; taking character in that way from Christ Himself. It is touching, if we think of verse 12 as being the intercession of Christ Himself; His own concern that, at the close of the dispensation, the assembly in all its features should come into expression in humble persons released from captivity. Would not His intercession lead us, and encourage us, to be engaged in intercession ourselves?

J.McK. Yes. I think it is one thing to understand that God will intervene according to His will, but it is another matter to give Him a moral basis for doing so.

C.L. Do you think that the truth of the Spirit's word coming through Haggai so distinctly and frequently lays the basis for the vision of the brethren being clear and definite so that we see how matters do stand? The prophetic word comes in two or three times very swiftly. Ought we to be concerned as to the character of what is prophetic amongst us, so that all the saints may see these matters very plainly?

G.R.C. The way these two prophets are interwoven is very interesting. Haggai takes the initiative; he, as it were, breaks up the ground. It speaks of God hewing them by the prophets, and Haggai comes in on that line; but it makes way for Zechariah, a young man who had visions: "your young men shall see visions". It is an immense thing to see visions. What I mean by visions, in the way I am speaking now, is that God would give us, and especially young men, the ability to see things as they are before Him -- not as they appear to be. If we look at the matter of government as it appears to be, we shall get confused; but we have to see things as they are before God, and that is a great point in this book. It says in chapter 6: 5, "These are the four spirits of the heavens which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth". That is where these spirits stand, they are "before

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the Lord of all the earth". But on the other hand, in God's operations in grace, there are those who stand before Him in a much more intimate and blessed way. The authorities themselves may have no consciousness, or very little, of the purpose for which they are there, perhaps none at all. But then there are those standing before Him in chapter 3: 4, "He spoke and said unto those that stood before him". They are standing before Him in the wealth of His grace. Then in chapter 4: 14, "These are the two sons of oil that stand before the Lord of the whole earth". What a thing to have our eyes opened as to what is before God, and how things stand before Him!

J.M. Would this bear a parallel to 1 Timothy, where Paul gives Timothy to see things as they are before God? He refers to God as the King of the ages.

G.R.C. Timothy helps much on this line. God is brought before us as the King in that epistle. He is controlling everything both in the realm of grace and government. And that epistle not only brings out His providential government -- we are to be intelligent enough to pray about that -- but it brings out His direct government in His house, which the book of Zechariah also deals with. There is God's direct government here in His house; and as to that Paul says "I testify before God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels, that thou keep these things without prejudice, doing nothing by favour". Matters of direct government in the house of God are to be done as before Him.

J.M. The reference in 1 Timothy 1 to a good conscience is followed by a reference to the authorities in chapter 2, and then that leads on to the assembly of God in chapter 3 and the elect angels in chapter 4. Does that correspond with what you have in mind?

G.R.C. It brings in a great array of what is before God, and our maintaining a good conscience means

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that we ourselves are walking as before God.

J.A.C. Would you say a word as to the asking of these questions. Would you encourage us to ask questions in relation to these matters?

G.R.C. We shall not learn much unless we ask questions. These meetings are meetings of enquiry, are they not? It is the spirit in which we are together, none of us taking the place of being other than a learner. The Spirit of God, typified by the Angel, is here to help us. Many times Zechariah refers to "the angel that talked with me", chapters 1: 9 and 19; 2: 3; 4: 1, 4; 5: 5; 6: 4. How easy God made it for him to ask questions. The angel was not talking to him, but with him. There was mutual intercourse between Zechariah and the angel.

J.A.C. Would you link it with the intimacy we may have with the Spirit on such occasions as these?

G.R.C. I would indeed. The service of the angel is performed in our day by the Holy Spirit.

J.A.C. One is very impressed with the nearness, the intimacy here, and then the questions that are asked, and how quickly they are answered!

G.R.C. They are answered quickly in the early stages, but we shall see as we proceed, that later he does not get an answer so quickly. In fact, things are brought in that are more difficult to understand, and he is made to feel his ignorance. Sometimes before he gets an answer the word is, "Knowest thou not what these are?" But in the early stages, as you say, the answer is very rapid; in fact, in chapter 2: 4 another angel comes and says to the angel who talked with him "Run, speak to this young man, saying, Jerusalem shall be inhabited as towns without walls for the multitude of men and cattle therein", showing the delight of God in a young man who is full of genuine enquiry. God loves such a young man, indeed his name means 'Whom Jah remembers'.

A.P.C.L. Is it significant in verse 12, that the inter-

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cession of the angel is in the form of a question, and then the answer does not exactly come to him, but through the angel that stood with him? Do you think in our intercession there should be more the line of enquiry. Do you not think sometimes we are apt to lay things out rather than enquire intercessarily?

G.R.C. That is very interesting.

G.M.S. Does not the Lord Himself refer to the same prophet in His ministry "whom ye slew between the temple and the altar", Matthew 23:35 -- as much as to say that the Lord honoured Zechariah, in his cleaving to the temple, the place of enquiry?

G.R.C. I am glad you have mentioned the temple. It is a prominent feature of this book. It is the shrine itself, where the light is.

A.N.G. Do we have something analogous to what you are saying in the history of Abraham? God had intervened governmentally in Babel, and over against that you have one man on the line of faith. Then God deals with Pharaoh in Egypt, and with Abimelech, King of Gerar, on Abraham's behalf; so that Abraham should go through on the line of faith. Finally Abraham pleads with Jehovah for Sodom?

G.R.C. It says He "reproved kings for their sakes, saying, Touch not mine anointed ones, and do my prophets no harm", Psalm 105:15. And that principle remains. God would rebuke kings for the sake of the saints. He wants those who are in the gain of the anointing, and going forward with His interests, to be unmolested so that the work in mind is completed.

W.S.S. Were you going to say something about the four craftsmen? Do they refer to another kind of power, insignificant in the eyes of men?

G.R.C. The horns in verse 18 refer to the Gentiles' powers from another angle, because, though we may view them as used of God, as indeed they are, yet in themselves, and particularly as they come under the

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power of Satan, who is the prince of this world, their activities have the effect of scattering, they had scattered Judah, Israel and Jerusalem. But then, God is behind Satan; we have to keep that in mind. God is behind the scenes, as Mr. Darby said, and He moves all the scenes that He is behind. The scattering but achieves His end. The scattering in Acts, for instance, had great results. Those that were scattered went everywhere preaching the word -- Acts 8:4 -- and they came as far as Antioch -- Acts 11:19 -- which became the base of Paul's operations. So that when scattering is allowed, it works out for good, even though it be allowed governmentally on account of the state of the saints. It is for the furtherance of the testimony. But the good depends on the four craftsmen; that is, we have to understand that our business is to go on with constructive work, as it says, "the line shall be stretched forth upon Jerusalem", verse 16. To bring about conformity with the measurements of the Divine plan the constructive work of craftsmen is required. So that while there is always the scattering principle, yet under God's hand it is overruled for good, and, as the craftsmen work, the horns are completely defeated.

W.S.S. Do we have the craftsmen in the beginning of Acts, and should we all be craftsmen?

G.R.C. We should all be craftsmen, and we need to have the whole plan in our minds. Paul was the great craftsman, and he was a wise architect. He had the whole plan in mind according to divine specifications and measurements. "I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and behold a man with a measuring line in his hand. And I said, Whither goest thou? And he said unto me, To measure Jerusalem, to see what is the breadth thereof, and what is the length thereof".

W.S.S. So Ezekiel was told to show them the fashion of the house.

G.R.C. I hope we shall all be concerned more and

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more to understand the pattern of the assembly, the plan. Paul unfolds the pattern in his epistles, beginning with Thessalonians then Corinthians, Colossians and Ephesians, where he ends with the assembly in Christ Jesus. We need the whole plan in our minds if we are to be intelligent craftsmen.

A.P.C.L. In verse 19 it says, "These are the horns which have scattered Judah, Israel, and Jerusalem". Do we sometimes think of scattering in relation to the saints, but we leave out the idea that Jerusalem is scattered if the saints are not secured? The plan is the great thing to have before us?

G.R.C. It would be a dreadful thing if constructive work relative to the assembly should not be proceeding, according to the plan. We feel it if the personnel are scattered, but the great thing is that, even if they are literally scattered, the constructive work should go on.

W.D. Is that why in chapter 2: 4 reference is made to the city inhabited, not just an abstract form, but a living state of things?

G.R.C. That is very important. The measuring of Jerusalem is one thing, that is to have the Divine measurement or plan; but then the city is to be inhabited, therefore we need the personnel. "Run, speak to this young man, saying, Jerusalem shall be inhabited as towns without walls for the multitude of men and cattle therein". This is a word specially for young men. We need more inhabitants today, and it is especially a matter for young men to evangelize; and to help souls as to the truth of the assembly. What a spur this message would be to Zechariah.

A.C.S.P. In that connection, does the five-fold reference to what 'shall be' in verses 16 and 17 help? It says "my house shall be built", "the line shall be stretched forth upon Jerusalem", "My cities shall yet overflow with prosperity", "Jehovah shall yet comfort Zion, and shall yet chose Jerusalem". There is a

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Divine ring of certainty about it that would help us in our souls?

G.R.C. What could more encourage and fill a young man with spiritual enthusiasm and zeal in the work of the Lord?

J.S.E. Would you say a word as to the difference between these four horns, in their principle of operation, and the four craftsmen. You referred to the four horns as representing the monarchies. Were they not in succession, and each in its turn marked by ambition for the control of the then known world. Do the four craftsmen represent that which is under God's hand with a universal outlook, but not working in succession, one overthrowing the other, but working in co-operation and continuity with the universal thoughts of God in their hearts?

G.R.C. Very good. Each of these Empires had universal aspirations, but in Jerusalem we have set out what is universal according to God.

J.S.E. Does a gathering like this bring in what we might call the result of the four craftsmen? Was there ever a time when there was such a mark of universal interest in the things of God and what belongs to the assembly as in our time?

G.R.C. Though the numbers are small and we would desire far more inhabitants, and I believe God would stir us up to secure more at the present time, yet your reference is very encouraging as to the universality of what we are linked with. The constructive work is surely going on all over the world.

J.S.E. Is it not a fact that, as a result of what the Spirit has given over the years, there is very little remaining of mere parochial practice amongst the brethren?

G.R.C. Very good. So that the cities in verse 17, which overflow with prosperity, do not practise local customs, they all take character from Jerusalem.

H.C. In verse 12 we read of the "cities of Judah",

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but in verse 17 God says "My cities".

G.R.C. Would it not be a comfort to us in our local settings? They may be small, two or three, but God claims them as His own.

F.M. Would you say a little more as to the young men. Following the word, that our brother called attention to, chapter 2: 4 says "Jerusalem shall be inhabited", and "I will be unto her a wall of fire round about, and will be the glory in the midst of her". If advance is to be made by the young men in evangelisation and the spreading of the truth, do they not need to take account of Jehovah as the great Protector?

G.R.C. They do. It is a remarkable word, "Run, speak to this young man", and that he should be told that Jerusalem should be inhabited as towns without walls. Surely it is just the word a young man needs, for it is an assurance that his activities will not be in vain. A young man full of zeal for the truth, and full of zeal to secure inhabitants for Jerusalem, will not labour in vain. And surely, this is a great need at the moment, young men inspired with this, that Jerusalem needs inhabitants.

W.S.S. Is it a question of taking character from the Lord Jesus Himself? In Mark, that great gospel of service, He is spoken of as the carpenter. These craftsmen are referred to as carpenters.

G.R.C. Matthew brings in the truth of the assembly, but Mark the preachers, who secure the inhabitants.

A.P.C.L. So that the question that he asks in verse 21 is not the same as he asks in verse 19. He is shown the horns, and he says "What are these?" Then in verse 21 "And I said, What come these to do?" It is not so much who the persons are, but what have they come to do. Do you think that should govern us?

G.R.C. That is the important thing. What they are going to do. And this cooperation amongst the

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craftsmen would bear much on that. What are we going to do; have we all got the plan correctly in our minds?

A.N.G. So that at the outset Paul, when he was commissioned, went up to Jerusalem to see the brethren there, to take away any appearance of independence; and later, when Peter moved in a way that was not in line with the idea of a craftsman, Paul took it up with him, so that they should all be working towards the one end in unity, would you say?

G.R.C. Very good. It is Jehovah Himself Who showed him the four craftsmen, showing how concerned God is about the craftsmen. And then comes the question "What come these to do?"

A.E.M. If you have not got the plan in mind, you are only an apprentice.

G.R.C. Do we have to begin by being an apprentice?

A.E.M. I think so.

G.R.C. Then we should covet to have the whole plan complete in our minds.

V.C.L. You have mentioned Antioch. They came there in Acts 11. Then, in chapter 12: 24 it says "the word of God grew and spread itself", involving God's own mercy and grace towards His people. Then it continues immediately "now there were in Antioch", chapter 13: 1. Do you think that the availability of servants under the Spirit enters into this matter?

G.R.C. I do. The passage you quote in Acts 12:24, "the word of God grew and spread itself", stands related to God's governmental operations which we have been referring to. An angel of the Lord smote Herod and he died, eaten of worms, showing what God can do in the realm of government. He can remove a man at any time. There had been much prayer for Peter, and God answered it by removing Herod altogether. Following that the word of God grew and spread itself. Then the narrative goes back to Antioch where some of the notable

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craftsmen were in the assembly and available to the Spirit, as you say.

J.H. Is there a scattering of the craftsmen in the end of 2 Timothy, where Paul speaks of Demas having forsaken him, and Crescens gone to Galatia, and Titus to Dalmatia! Is he repairing the situation as he exhorts Timothy to bring Mark with him, and to join himself to Luke?

G.R.C. Quite so. Of course Demas had defected, he was no longer working according to the plan; he had forsaken Paul. He may have been going on with the gospel on a human level, but having given up the Divine plan, he was not in the work properly at all. It may be, Paul had sent the others to places where help was needed; but he wants Mark with him. Luke is already with him. But what is encouraging about the work of the craftsmen is that "these are come to affright them, to cast out the horns of the nations, which lifted up the horn against the land of Judah to scatter it". It is remarkable that Paul, and those with him overthrew, in a moral sense, the Roman Empire. That was the horn that was existing at that time. From the base at Antioch the Roman Empire, in all its moral features, was overthrown. Paul invaded Europe from that base, and finally was in Rome itself. And what Paul constructed remains today in all its power, but what Caesar built is in ruins.

F.M. Does that show the importance of Acts 13, the Holy Spirit free to say, "Separate me now", securing such servants as Paul and Barnabas to go forward with the work?

G.R.C. It seems to show that the Holy Spirit is in direct control of the craftsmen.

J.S.E. There were some remarks in this very Hall in 1950 by our beloved brother Mr. Taylor as to Herod the Great in the early part of Matthew, and the latitude that Joseph had in not going into the territory of the first son of Herod, Archillaeus, but

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coming into the other territory, Nazareth. Is that all bound up with the right of way of God in government, so that He allows latitude of movement with Joseph in order that Christ and all that is to come out in Him should go forward?

G.R.C. And in that way scripture was fulfilled.

J.S.E. Yes, and persons were employed in the fulfilling.

G.R.C. Exactly. It says "That that should be fulfilled which was spoken through the prophets, He shall be called a Nazaraean", Matthew 2:23. So that the fact that Archillaeus was reigning in Judea and that Joseph was warned not to go there was all for the fulfilment of scripture.

A.H.G. Does that bring us back to what you remarked earlier as to the low valley, that power really lies with those who are on the line of meekness and lowliness?

G.R.C. The title Nazaraean would link with that.

J.A.P. What is the difference between the craftsmen and those who are engaged in husbandry? When do we engage in these different works?

G.R.C. The two types of work are dependent one upon another. Paul says "Ye are God's husbandry, God's building", 1 Corinthians 3:9. And if we look at Haggai 2:15, he refers to the husbandry, "Now, I pray you, consider from this day and onward, from before a stone was laid upon stone in the temple of Jehovah". Before that, husbandry had failed; there was no fruit from the work of their hands. But once the building began husbandry prospered. I think the two things go together. If we are craftsmen, and have the assembly before us according to the Divine plan, and are building in relation to that, we shall find our husbandry operations prosper.

W.W.S. Do craftsmen carry the thought of construction while the husbandmen carry more the thought of cultivation? Is the craftsman largely

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related to what is basic, the truth of the assembly being developed, but the husbandman has in view the bringing out the features proper to the assembly in the personnel and securing material for offering?

G.R.C. Quite so. God does not prosper the husbandry work of those who have not the truth of the assembly before them. Individual saints, viewed as plants of Jehovah, do not prosper and yield what they should in the way of fruit, unless the foundation of the house is laid and the building is going on.

W.H. They must be Paul's plants, must they not, to be really prospered?

G.R.C. "I have planted" he says.

A.P.C.L. Does not cultivation call for excess of grace? "Cut it down, why does it also render the ground useless?" Luke 13:7. The reply is to leave it, dig it about, and dung it. Is it means whereby we can expend a lot on one another in view of growth?

G.R.C. I think so. But I doubt whether God will prosper that work unless we have the house and Jerusalem in our minds, because the fruit of all cultivation is to be brought to the house of God.

A.P.C.L. I was thinking that. Where Paul brings them together, the responsibility is not upon the husbandry but upon the building. And he warns persons who build in what is not right.

D.A. Could you help us further as to verse 21? We have been thinking of the horns as indirectly used of God, but here the four craftsmen are said to be working against them, "these are come to affright them".

G.R.C. The horns do not represent the powers that be from the standpoint of being ordained and used of God, but rather as power in the hands of men. Faith's view in the earlier part of the chapter is that they are under control, God is overruling providentially. Nevertheless power is still in the hands of men, and in seeking to achieve universal ambitions, man in power is characteristically against the assembly.

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READING TWO

Zechariah 3

G.R.C. We are considering the operations of God in grace and in government in days of recovery with a view to seeing the way He co-ordinates them so that His end may be reached, that is, that He should have the place that is His by right as indicated in the last chapter of this book; and we were noticing that, in the first vision, the matter of government is dealt with at the beginning to show that the One whose presence is known in the midst of two or three who are gathered to His name is the One Who is in control of governmental matters. The three great Gentile Empires, represented in the red, bay and white horses, are all behind Him, and cannot move without Him. But then the vision goes on to show God's heart is set upon Jerusalem, that all that He does in government and in grace is to bring to pass what is in His mind as to Jerusalem, that is, as to the assembly, applying it to our day. And we spoke of the craftsmen, and the way they operate as having the divine plan, so that power in the hands of man which is used for scattering is overcome. Even if scattering occurs, it only furthers the divine end, as the craftsmen continue with their work, so that the fruit of Paul's labours remain, while, what attached to the great Empire in the days in which he served, now lies in ruins. But the work of the craftsmen is what remains. The work of the Gentile Empires, as such, will not remain. We closed with chapter 2: 4, the special message to the young man, "Jerusalem shall be inhabited as towns without walls for the multitude of men and cattle therein". I think that links with the chapter that we have now read.

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I might say before we leave chapter 2, that verse 8 shows how precious the inhabitants of Jerusalem are to Him, "He that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye". There is the word to flee from Babylon, and those who flee and become true inhabitants of Jerusalem are exceedingly precious to God. It says "After the glory, hath he sent me unto the nations that made you a spoil". As applied to our day, God is known in the midst according to verse 5. "I ... will be the glory in the midst of her". God has recovered saints to His thoughts, and we anticipate the coming day in that we already know in the Spirit's power what it is to have God in our midst, and, it is in the light of that glorious position of recovery, that God speaks with such appreciation of the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and the way He would deal with anything that would affect them -- "he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye", which would be a comfort to us in connection with Trade Unionism, Communism, Romanism and other things we have to meet. He acts in regard to these things, "Behold, I will shake my hand upon them", verse 9; God will not allow unmolested anything that touches the inhabitants of Jerusalem. Now chapter 3 would indicate the way those inhabitants are secured in holy liberty before God, to serve Him; for God's thought is to have a kingdom of priests. In Revelation 22:3, as to the city, it says "his servants shall serve him" -- the word is priestly service. Thus priestly service marks the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and this chapter shows the way God operates in recovering grace, so that those who have known captivity in Babylon might be established in the gain of all that is secured for them in Christ on high, with a view to their serving God acceptably as priests. That takes us down to verse 5. The remainder of the chapter is a word to such -- those who have apprehended their place of favour and acceptance in

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Christ. They are left here in responsibility, to walk in Jehovah's ways, to keep His charge, to judge His house, and to keep His courts. That is very much like Paul's injunctions to Timothy. The early part would link more with the first few verses of Ephesians, our place of acceptance in Christ, but then Timothy was left at Ephesus, and Paul commits to him the charge, and the keeping of God's house. And, where these two sides of the truth are entered into in power, a restful state of affairs is brought about, seen in verse 8, "Joshua the high priest, thou and thy fellows that sit before thee", in which we can contemplate Christ as the Branch; not the One Who will come now, but the One Who has come, and as the Stone, and we can be restful in the presence of the seven eyes. I might add, at this point, that it is to be noted that, while in Paul's epistles he develops the plan that we spoke of this morning as to the assembly, so that the craftsmen might be working according to plan, alongside of that, he develops in his epistles the truth of the gospel, and that is what this chapter would bear upon. If we are to be equipped for the assembly we need the truth of the gospel, and so whether we think of Thessalonians, Corinthians, Colossians or Ephesians, each brings in an aspect of the gospel.

W.S.S. Would that be indicated in the remark, "they are men of portent"? The note says "Men to be observed as signs, or types". Sitting restfully, as you have said, would be a basis of testimony would it not?

G.R.C. Quite so. In a day like this, those who are recovered to the full truth of the gospel -- their place of acceptance before God in Christ -- and who are able to serve Him accordingly in acceptable priestly service, are men of portent. They are entirely different from that which is current.

F.M. Would the first part of the chapter be a Colossian view? I am comparing the taking away of

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the filthy garments with Colossians 1:13, "delivered us from the authority of darkness and translated us into the kingdom of the Son of His love". Everything must be in suitability.

G.R.C. Do you not think in Paul's epistles he was taking away the filthy garments, but also investing the saints with the festival robes. I am thinking for instance of the filthy garments marking the saints in Corinth. Everything that marks man after the flesh is filthy in God's sight, everything that proceeds from the mind and will of man in divine things is filthy in God's sight. Therefore the truth of the gospel is needed if we are to serve God acceptably, because the full truth of the gospel implies that all that man is as after the flesh has been removed from before God judicially in the death and burial of Christ, and that if any live to Him now, they live to Him as in Christ Jesus. We were chosen in Him, we are justified in Him, we have life in Him, we are sealed in Him. So that all that is filthy, if we understand that, is left behind.

J.McK. Do you think that Paul's gospel in the full and glorious sense of it always meets with the adverse power of Satan? Satan is standing at Joshua's right hand to resist him. Is he taking exception and resisting men being liberated entirely from filthy garments to serve God.

G.R.C. You can understand how Satan is set against the service of God proceeding acceptably before Him. And here Joshua the high priest, represents the nation, with all the sins of the dispensation upon him, the filthy garments, all that has been introduced into the professed service of God.

S.McC. Very often, in difficulties that arise amongst us locally, the Lord really brings us back to the basic teaching of the glad tidings. If we take the matter of sin or sins, and the judging of it, the Lord has to bring us back to the basic principle of the

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gospel in regard to forgiveness, too, do you not think?

G.R.C. I am sure He does. So that, while the basic principles are set out in Romans, which is the treatise on the gospel, yet, when Paul approaches the Corinthians, in order to deal with their state, he has to bring in the gospel in a manner suited to their state alongside of his church teaching, all with a view to their being true inhabitants of Jerusalem, fit to serve God in the assembly. And then, as Mr. M. says, he writes to the Colossians. The things about which he warns the Colossians are not regarded as filthy by men but they are very filthy in the eyes of God -- they are the things that result from the human intellect intruding into the things of God and introducing its own ideas into the worship of God. And so he brings further gospel ministry, as well as assembly ministry, to meet that. Then in Galatians he exposes the filthy garments of legality, ceremonialism, and cold formality, and brings in the gospel to meet these. But in Ephesians he brings in the full blessing of the gospel.

S.McC. Just so. I think your reference to the filthy side in Colossians, and man's mind, is important; also in Galatians; because we constantly need to be reminded that ecclesiastical sin is far more heinous in the sight of God than moral sin. Mr. Darby said that years ago.

G.R.C. It may be we are slow to come to that. We have been impressed lately with the dreadful sin of independency. At first sight independency may not appeal to us as very bad; but when we come to face what it means -- that, in order to retain my own thoughts and opinions in the things of God, and thus spare my flesh, I am prepared to cut across all that is most precious to God, and prepared to see the practical features of the body, the temple and the pearl of great value destroyed -- we realise how dreadful it is.

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E.B.L. So the full gospel would bring in the full light of God. It would show up the filthy garments.

G.R.C. The filthy garments are shown up as in the presence of Christ. It says "He showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the Angel of Jehovah". As we have seen in chapter 1, the Angel of Jehovah is a type of Christ, and Joshua the high priest is standing before the Angel of Jehovah. It is a great thing to stand there.

A.H.G. Would this correspond at all with what Paul has to say of himself in 1 Timothy 1:13, what he was, and how he had obtained mercy?

G.R.C. It would. The word here is "Is not this a brand picked out of the fire?". And that verse bears on what has been said, that God has Jerusalem in mind in this. We are speaking of the gospel, and recovery to it, but what is always in mind is the assembly. "Jehovah said unto Satan, Jehovah rebuke thee, O Satan! Yea, Jehovah that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee!". Satan is against Jerusalem, his great attack is against the assembly. But then he prosecutes that attack by attacking the personnel of the assembly. He would, if possible, destroy any concrete expression of the assembly by attacking the personnel. And if we are not in the power and truth of Paul's gospel, we are not ready to take up the truth of the assembly, nor are we ready to take up the holy priestly service that belongs to it.

J.McK. Would it be right to seek to bring the truth of the assembly more into the gospel? Should not the preaching amongst us be distinctive, not merely on the lines of bringing relief to men, but containing some of the great thoughts of God for men in the assembly?

G.R.C. Well, Paul does not close his gospel treatise, that is Romans, without a reference to the mystery, so why should we? He shows that the mystery is as much a command of God as is the gospel.

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"Now to him that is able to establish you, according to my glad tidings and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, as to which silence has been kept in the times of the ages, but which has now been made manifest, and by prophetic scriptures, according to commandment of the eternal God, made known for obedience of faith to all the nations -- the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory for ever. Amen", Romans 16:25 - 27. That is the finish of his gospel treatise. He leaves those before whom he has put the truth of the gospel, with the fact in their minds that there is another great truth which has been revealed, the mystery; and that it is of the same scope as the gospel. The gospel is preached for the "obedience of faith among all the nations" chapter 1: 5 -- and the mystery is "made known for the obedience of faith to all the nations", chapter 16: 26. No one whom God reaches by the gospel is outside of the scope of this commandment. God commands obedience in this matter, obedience to the mystery, that is the truth of the assembly.

W.S.S. And on the other hand he does not close the assembly epistle, Ephesians, without a reference to the mystery of the gospel.

A.H.G. Could you say more as to obedience relative to the assembly?

G.R.C. No one can be in the assembly practically unless he is obedient. According to Romans 12 the first and primary element of the will of God is that we should recognise that we being many are one body in Christ. That does away with independency straight away -- we are each one members one of another. It is the will of God that we should find our place in the body and function in it, and that requires obedience. People reached through the gospel are not to be freelances.

J.S.E. This morning we referred to government,

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and Matthew's gospel was spoken of. Would you say that Luke is complementary to Matthew in that he brings in the priestly side, and has much to say about a sphere into which man is brought, and in which God is served? And does Joshua here, although he is said to be the high priest, represent those who have fallen from the normality of the priesthood and need to be restored to it?

G.R.C. That is the position with us all, as recovered from Babylon, is it not? What you say is helpful. Chapter 1 links more with Matthew; the man among the myrtle trees typifying the One to whom all power in heaven and on earth is given. But this chapter would link more with Luke.

J.S.E. Luke is nearly always positive in his allusions to Jerusalem is he not?

G.R.C. He is. There was a man in Jerusalem at the beginning.

A.E.M. In preaching the gospel, we should always finish with a word as to breaking bread, because it is the beginning of assembly exercise. Would you say that?

G.R.C. That is very good. One has felt that Romans 12 might be called the fellowship chapter, because it involves the communion of the body of the Christ in that our bodies are presented for the carrying out of God's will. We are thus, in our measure brought into correspondence with Christ, in the way He used His holy body.

A.C.S.P. Has the Lord's word about the woman that anointed Him any bearing on this, when He says, "Wheresoever these glad tidings may be preached in the whole world, what this woman has done shall be also spoken of for a memorial of her", Mark 14:9? I was wondering whether, alongside of the testimony of the Christ, there is to be a testimony as to a woman who thinks everything of Him.

G.R.C. Very good indeed. So that the idea of

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response is there straight away, which culminates in the assembly.

J.M. And in the restoration of David in Psalm 51, there is a reference to the recovery of a saint, and he reaches Jerusalem in his exercises "build the walls of Jerusalem".

G.R.C. Showing that whatever experiences we go through, in regard of recovery, the fruit of it, in added wealth in our souls, is to contribute to service in the assembly.

J.S.E. Would you say a word about the taking away of these garments?

G.R.C. It says "he spoke and said unto those that stood before him"; -- there are those standing before Him, those who are in the gain of their place in Christ, and it is to those he says "Take away the filthy garments from off him".

J.S.E. Does that arouse certain sobering exercises as to how persons are to be reviewed, so that nothing connected with the filth of these garments is bypassed?

G.R.C. I think so. Paul in his epistles, as we have said, is a great example of that. His ministry in each of the epistles is calculated to take away the filthy garments, and to set the saints up in liberty before God in Christ, as free from the man after the flesh altogether. Do we not need to see that the truth of the gospel would free us from all filthy garments? The truth of the gospel involves that we are no longer before God as in Adam or as in the flesh, but that we are before God in Christ and in the Spirit. If that is known in the soul and answered to it would relieve us of all filthy garments.

J.S.E. I can understand all that on the line of solid and uncontaminated teaching, but is it not an actual fact that we have to do with persons who have emerged, so far, from the captivity, and yet, as they are reviewed, there is a need to assist them. I wondered if those standing by might represent those

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amongst the saints who are in the joy of Jerusalem, and know what is due to God, and whether such should be available to help souls. It says "he showed me Joshua".

G.R.C. And do we not all need help in some measure? It is our duty to help one another. How slow, for instance, one is in getting free from every trace of the Galatian garment, every trace of the notion that fleshly effort can contribute something in the service of God.

W.H. Would the word to the bondman to bring forth the best robe and put it upon him, in Luke 15, have a bearing on this?

G.R.C. I think so. And would you not say the best robe, as in Paul's ministry, would be Ephesians 1:3 - 6 ending with "taken into favour in the Beloved"?

A.P.C.L. Those that stand by are said to take away the garments, and then he said "I clothe thee". Would there be an impression that what is in keeping with divine pleasure proceeds from Jehovah Himself?

G.R.C. It is God Himself who justifies us in Christ, who gives us life in Christ, and who by the Holy Spirit, has sealed us in Christ.

A.P.C.L. The knowledge of that is greater than the instrument through whom it may come to us.

G.R.C. Yes. It is He Himself who has taken us into favour in the Beloved.

A.B. Would the death of Christ lie behind the removal of the filthy garments and the clothing with festival robes? The last verse in the preceding chapter says, "Let all flesh be silent before Jehovah; for He is risen up out of his holy habitation". Is not the flesh silenced in the death of Christ? Sin in the flesh is judged there, and that would be the basis for removing the filthy garments?

G.R.C. It would. So that it is important to see that our ability to serve God acceptably in the priestly office, depends on our being in the gain of

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the gospel, and the gospel has that end in view. It fits us for our place in the assembly, and in the assembly we serve as priests. If we understand our place of acceptance in Christ we are ready for the pure turban.

W.D. Is it in line with Isaiah's reference to the turban, chapter 61: 10, and 62: 3, beautifying the saints in relation to the work of God in them?

G.R.C. The turban, according to Exodus 28:36 had a golden plate and on it was written "holiness to Jehovah". It was indeed a beautiful crown, involving the thought of holiness in a complete sense, but especially as bearing on the mind. The mind is to be under control, so that God is served according to His own thoughts. I believe it is important to see that if we are defective in the truth of the gospel, defective in any way as to the basis of our acceptance before God, we shall bring before God in our priestly service what is filthy in His sight. We may do it more than we realise. Anything in the way of fleshly energy in the service of God is filthy in His sight.

G.M.S. If the work of Christ is referred to in the taking away of the filthy garments and the clothing with festival robes, do you think the work of the Spirit is suggested in verse 5, "I said". Who is the 'I'? Is there not a suggestion of thoughts in the power of the Spirit in the reference "set a pure turban upon his head"?

G.R.C. No doubt it was the Spirit that prompted this remark, although a young brother said it. Is that so?

G.M.S. Do you think the 'I' is the prophet himself?

G.R.C. Yes; but then it would be prompted by the Spirit, and shows how the Spirit would use us, how He would use a young man. It shows how a young man can be in the greatest situation and be so thoroughly in line that he makes a suggestion which

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is just right at the moment. "And I said, Let them set a pure turban upon his head". It was just what was needed to be said at that moment and, as we would say, the youngest brother in the meeting said it. It shows how the Spirit would use one who is available.

S.McC. It is interesting that when it comes to the actual operation, the pure turban comes first. "They set the pure turban upon his head, and clothed him with garments", which would bear out what you are remarking as to the primeness of the priestly side.

G.R.C. That is very instructive. So that priesthood is in mind in the way God sets up in Christ in grace. He has in mind that we should serve Him acceptably. But if we are defective in the truth of the gospel we shall introduce something that is filthy.

A.H.G. Would that be involved in the fact that he uses the word iniquity? "I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee". Is iniquity sin in holy things?

G.R.C. I think so. Even before Paul had passed off the scene all kinds of iniquity had been brought in; things utterly unsuited to the service of God had been introduced in Corinth, Colosse, and Galatia; and they have become rampant around us. But then, as God operates in grace, and there are returned captives who are established in the full truth of Paul's gospel, these filthy garments no longer appear in the service of God.

E.J.B. Is there a kind of reminder each Lord's day in the cup, that by way of death every moral question has been settled and we are set up in liberty for the service? Is there not a link between the cup and the remission of sins which comes in in the gospel?

G.R.C. Quite so. And so in Ephesians 1:6 and 7 where it says, "He has taken us into favour in the Beloved" it immediately says "in whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of offences".

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E.J.B. So that we would not want to reinstate that man in any sense.

G.R.C. No. I believe the bearing of the gospel on the priesthood needs to be stressed. If God is to be served acceptably it can only be by those who are in the gain of Paul's gospel, beginning with Romans and ending with Ephesians 1.

A.B. Would it involve in some measure correspondence with Christ on high as the priest? Exodus 28:38 refers to the turban, "It shall be upon Aaron's forehead, and he shall bear the iniquity of the holy things, which the children of Israel shall hallow in all gifts of their holy things; and it shall be continually on his forehead, that they may be accepted before Jehovah". Would that represent Christ as He now is before God as maintaining things according to Him there?

G.R.C. And I think the Angel of Jehovah here would represent Christ in that way. Joshua the high priest was standing before the Angel of Jehovah, and then, verse 3, "and Joshua was clothed with filthy garments and stood before the Angel". It is in the presence of Christ, all that is contrary is fully exposed. And then there are the operations of grace, the taking away of the filthy garments, and then the word "I clothe thee with festival robes". It is a most touching thing that after all the iniquity of the dispensation -- and we are at the end now -- our place of acceptance in Christ is unchanged. Nothing that has happened on the responsible side here has in any way affected the glorious truth of the gospel; and we are brought back to it, and brought back to it in a particularly jubilant way, "I clothe thee with festival-robes". There is a jubilance about recovery to the truth of the gospel. There is something added in the way of joy.

J.S.E. Do you mean that Joshua remained there in the consciousness of relationship on the one hand, and yet of all the unsuitable nature of his garments to

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that relationship, and remained there so that all that could be radically dealt with?

G.R.C. I believe that, in the early days of the present recovery, many were like him for a long time in their soul history. They were conscious of the relationship as you say, but they were very much oppressed with the filthy garments, and it has taken many years of the ministry of Paul's gospel to set us free. We have gradually become clear of Corinthian, Galatian and Colossian error, so that you find the saints today, speaking generally, know more of the jubilance connected with the festival robes than those in the early days. Do you think that?

J.S.E. Oh yes, I do. What I am anxious to get at for myself is the setting of Joshua, so that we understand that the relationship abides, but all that is extraneous to it must be disposed of, and that is a very exercising matter.

W.W.S. Is it not very beautiful that while in verse 3 Joshua is standing before the Angel with filthy garments, the end of the section in verse 5 finds the Angel of Jehovah standing by, as finding his peculiar pleasure in Joshua now attired as he is?

G.R.C. That is very fine, so that the great point here is the clothing of Joshua, and it says "And unto him he said, See". Those that stood by were to take away the filthy garments from off him but then the word to Joshua himself is "See, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I clothe thee with festival-robes". God Himself speaks to him about what He has done in grace, and then there is the word of the prophet in the power of the Spirit, "Let them set a pure turban upon his head". Zechariah, carried along in the spirit of the occasion, realises what the divine end is. And then "they set the pure turban upon his head", that is put first, "and clothed him with garments". So that the great point here is the operations of God in recovering grace. The pure

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turban is upon his head, he is clothed with the festival-robes, and the Angel of Jehovah stood up. What an affecting thing that is, the Lord Jesus Himself, typically, standing by. What a delight it must be to Him to see the saints consciously invested with the festival-robes, and with the pure turban upon their heads.

J.M. We get a beautiful touch in Isaiah 61. The Lord Jesus begins His ministry from this Scripture in Luke's gospel, but His service goes on "to appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, that beauty should be given unto them instead of ashes, the oil of joy instead of mourning, the garment of praise instead of the spirit of heaviness ... that he may be glorified".

G.R.C. Very good, showing that the end in view in the gospel is that the garment of praise should mark the saints.

J.A.C. Satan is standing at Joshua's right hand to resist him in verse l, but he is completely silenced by God's operation in grace.

G.R.C. He has nothing to say because the whole matter has been met in righteousness. It shows the abiding efficacy of the gospel, that it stands in all its glory at the end of the dispensation as it did at the beginning. Even the sins of the dispensation -- the iniquity that has marked the profession in which we have had our part -- cannot be used by Satan to depress the saints, because our place in Christ remains in all its glory: "Taken us into favour in the beloved".

A.P.C.L. And it is Jehovah of hosts from whom this word proceeds.

G.R.C. Why do you point that out Mr. L?

A.P.C.L. I was thinking of the inhabitants. There is no diminution of numbers in the divine mind.

G.R.C. So that we are not to be occupied with fewness of numbers. We are in touch with Jehovah of hosts.

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A.H.G. Would there be the idea of protection and support in the Angel of Jehovah standing by, and then amongst those that stand by?

G.R.C. I think it would involve support. Those that stand by would be ever ready for service. Joshua has been established in grace and now, in verses 6 - 7, he is placed in responsibility.

F.M. Does "If thou wilt walk in my ways" verse 7 -- suggest responsibility as to fellowship?

G.R.C. It does.

J.McK. And the priesthood is to have the custody of the house and the courts, and would there be justification for imposing confidence in the priesthood as having come by this way of moral cleansing?

G.R.C. God Himself puts confidence in such. How can God put confidence in a man who has not accepted the truth of the gospel? Such a man still has some confidence in himself. If we have confidence in ourselves, or in the flesh, then God can have no confidence in us.

H.C. Is it appropriate to link this up with 2 Timothy 4"Luke alone is with me"?

G.R.C. Very good. Luke, in his gospel confirms the truth of Paul's gospel, and shows that the gospel secures a priestly company serving God in the temple. And, in a day of difficulty, Luke is amongst those who stand by, he is with Paul.

H.B. In Isaiah 28:5 and 6 there is a reference to the diadem of beauty, and then again "for a spirit of judgment to him that sitteth in judgment".

G.R.C. That is good as bearing on this passage. Joshua was to judge God's house. And I think the whole of verse 7 relates to the responsibility placed upon Joshua in connection with God's direct government in His house. We have been speaking of the operations of God in grace and government. We have been occupied with God's ways in indirect or providential government, as using the Gentile powers.

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But there is not only indirect government; there is also God's direct government in His house. And the responsibility of maintaining what is due to God in His house is placed upon Joshua as representing the priestly company. "If thou wilt walk in my ways, and if thou wilt keep my charge, then thou shalt also judge my house, and thou shalt also keep my courts".

W.H. How does this work out locally? Is it a matter of responsibility amongst those who feel their responsibility, or are all included in the matter?

G.R.C. I think all are included in the matter, the whole priestly company. God has recovered us in His mercy to the truth of the gospel and the exuberance of the festival-robes, and has established us in priestly service. We are brands plucked from the burning. Now the responsibility lies with all of us to walk in His ways. It is not a responsibility placed upon us as in the flesh. The fact that we have been established in the truth of the gospel means that we have power in the Spirit to walk in His ways, keep His charge, and judge His house. This goes very much with Paul's instructions to Timothy. He says, "This charge my child Timotheus, I commit to thee, according to the prophecies as to thee preceding", 1 Timothy 1:18. He committed the charge to Timothy. It is an epistle dealing with the house of God, and he says "I testify before God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels, that thou keep these things without prejudice, doing nothing by favour", 1 Timothy 5:21. That chapter deals with assembly giving -- the honouring of widows and the according of double honour to elders -- and then refers to judicial action; but what governs the whole matter of administration is that it is to be done as before God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels. And then he closes that epistle by saying chapter 6: 13, "I enjoin thee before God who preserves all things in life, and Christ Jesus who witnessed before Pontius Pilate the good confession, that thou keep the commandment

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spotless, irreproachable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ". I think that epistle shows how the charge comes down to us. It came down to Timothy, and it would come down to all who have tasted of the grace of God.

W.S.S. Do you think that it could be linked with the end of verse 8 of our chapter in Zechariah "Behold I will bring forth my servant the Branch", Christ coming into view testimonially?

G.R.C. I think that. So you get God's direct government in His house in verse 7, and the resulting restful conditions in verse 8, "Hear now, Joshua the high priest, thou and thy fellows that sit before thee -- for they are men of portent -- for behold, I will bring forth my servant the Branch". I think it means that there are restful conditions in which we can contemplate Christ in His blessedness. And then the second "behold" directs our attention to Him as the Stone, "Behold, the stone that I have laid before Joshua -- upon one stone are seven eyes".

W.S.S. It says in chapter 4: 10 "these are the eyes of Jehovah, which run to and fro in the earth".

J.S.E. You have remarked on this stone once or twice, and emphasised the seven eyes. Could you say what you have in mind?

G.R.C. I wondered whether the stone refers to Christ as the foundation laid in Zion, and whether the eyes show the intimate relation between Christ and the Spirit. In Revelation 5:6 the seven eyes that the Lamb has are said to be the seven Spirits of God. I wondered whether God has laid the foundation, that is, Christ Himself, from which the whole structure is to take character and whether the Spirit is here, with His perfect discernment, to see that everything that is put upon that foundation is in keeping with it. But the great thing is that Joshua and his fellows could be restful in the presence of those seven eyes.

J.S.E. Would this, in the actual setting of Joshua's

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place in history, be in principle his being provided with the plan, so that, as the house came into view, he would know what to do? Has there not been a good deal of -- may I reverently say -- real struggle on the Spirit's part amongst us in relation to the plan, and now He seems to have some measure of freedom. We would all like to be more intelligent as to what is to be done in the system, and how it is to be done.

H.B. Is there any sense of divine scrutiny in the thought of the seven eyes and restfulness in the presence of it?

G.R.C. That is what I thought. As set up before God in grace, we are able, in the power of that grace, to carry out our responsibilities in God's house, and are thus able to be restful in the presence of the seven eyes.

E.J.B. The fact that in verse 7 the responsibility is put entirely upon a positive line, that if what is right is done these results will follow, and the negative is not referred to, would give us a restful sense that God is going to maintain it to the end, do you think?

G.R.C. I think so. The Spirit is here with perfect discernment, and He will expose anything introduced that is not in keeping with the foundation stone; but He is the Spirit of grace, and is with us in love, so that, if we are upright in heart, we can be restful, even in the presence of the seven eyes, because the Spirit is here to help us. We rely on His discernment to give us discernment. We should have no discernment ourselves, but the Spirit with His perfect discernment, the seven eyes, is available to us, and He gives us discernment as to what is according to God and what is not.

S.McC. So that in Revelation 4:5 after the reference to "the seven lamps of fire, burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God", we immediately get a reference to the living creatures as "full of eyes; and they cease not day and night saying,

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Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, who was, and who is, and who is to come", verse 8. There would be a link in the symbolism there, do you not think?

G.R.C. I do. You are thinking of the living creatures as representing the saints, and they are full of eyes, around and within, before and behind. The Spirit gives us discernment; and we are not at all dismayed at the presence of the one Stone with the seven eyes, because the Spirit not only gives the priestly company discernment, but power to do what is right. Without His aid, and the discernment He gives, we could not carry out the charge of verse 7.

A.P.C.L. So that in 1 Corinthians 2:10: 16 where the Spirit is so emphasised, it says, "we have the mind of Christ". You were saying that this type -- the stone -- brings the Lord Jesus and the Spirit together. When the natural mind is shut out entirely as in 1 Corinthians 2, what comes in is the thinking faculty of Christ.

G.R.C. That chapter says "the spiritual discerns all things", showing how the Spirit gives us eyes.

A.B. Does the feature of dependence come in in connection with the Branch, the way in which the Lord served God, particularly in Luke's gospel. He was continually marked by prayer.

G.R.C. I thought that. The first "behold" is, "Behold, I will bring forth my servant the Branch". He is called God's servant and He is the model. The Branch suggests, I suppose, the freshness and vigour of life, but, at the same time, dependence.

A.E.M. Would the meeting for ministry be of especial value in connection with the eyes? In the meeting for ministry there is a special appeal to the affections by the Spirit. He observes all things, and He may speak about them in power.

G.R.C. And we should greatly welcome that. The Spirit is here in love and grace and discerns what we would not discern, but He may make it known, as you say, in the meeting for ministry.

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J.McK. And in keeping with the seven eyes would there be the living and operative word of God? There is not only discernment, but the word that gets to the root of the matter.

H.B. The prophet in Samuel was formerly called a seer. Is that the same thought, in connection with the eyes?

G.R.C. That is the idea of a seer, he is a man who sees. Zechariah was, in principle, a seer, because he saw these things and recorded what he saw. In the light of these things he was able to prophesy.

J.McK. I was thinking that removing the iniquity of this land in one day would be by the power of the word, would it not?

G.R.C. I would think so. There is the second "behold" -- "behold ... upon one stone are seven eyes; behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith Jehovah". What is set out perfectly in Christ is to be engraved in the saints. And the word of God would effect that and what is contrary would be dealt with.

J.Hr. In full accord with what you have been saying, do we need to contemplate the Branch? In chapter 6 they are told to behold the man whose name is the Branch. We see everything perfectly in Christ, and then the effect of it in us would be this engraving.

G.R.C. And is it not a fact that the ability to sit down together and to contemplate Christ in His beauty and perfection, is the result of being restored in recovering mercy to the truth of the gospel and to a sense of responsibility as to what is due to God in His house? The Spirit of God has wrought thus in recovery so that saints should be able to sit down and contemplate Christ together as the Branch; and then to take account of the stone, as in the presence of the seven eyes.

V.C.L. Was Paul in the value of this when, as a man in Christ, he heard unspeakable things? And, as holding these things in his soul, he was able to impress the saints.

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D.A. Do you think the stressing of "that day" in verse 10 would show that the prophetic word received and responded to, would at once open the door to conditions of eternal life?

G.R.C. Just so. That verse suggests that the gain of the inheritance is known, liberty with God and liberty with the neighbour.

A.C.S.P. Peter in his epistle, refers in chapter 1 to the precious character of the blood by which we have been redeemed, in view of priestly service in the next chapter, and refers, in that chapter, to the great foundation stone.

A.P.C.L. Is verse 10 a test as to whether these things have been entered into, and answered to, by us in our localities?

G.R.C. Our neighbourly relations are thus a test of how far we have progressed spiritually.

G.M.S. Is there a connection between the fellows verse 8 -- and the neighbour verse 10, suggesting mutual conditions?

G.R.C. I would think so. "Thy fellows that sit before thee" would be in a priestly setting, in connection with the house of God, and verse 10 may refer to the same persons, but in the neighbourly setting.

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READING THREE

Zechariah 4; Zechariah 5:1 - 3, 5 - 11

F.M. There has been a desire for help on prophetic ministry, the place that it has, and also as to the suitable times for prophetic ministry. We have confined it pretty much to one night a month, but exercise has been raised as to its place in three-day meetings, in view of the way God might speak to us. The meeting this morning is for enquiry, and that is why I have raised this now.

G.R.C. This book is full of enquiry. Zechariah is in the spirit of enquiry all through these chapters, and we were thinking that the service of the angel that talked with him would, in our day, be performed by the Holy Spirit, and would indicate the terms of intimacy upon which He is pleased to be with us. It does not say that the angel talked to him, but with him. There was mutual intercourse between Zechariah and the angel, Zechariah being ever on the line of enquiry, although at times challenged as to what he saw, so that he had to answer. It may be that, as we appreciate more the personal presence of the Spirit and the intimate terms upon which He is prepared to be with us, we shall find ourselves able to extend the idea of prophetic meetings without fear of confusion. I think sometimes it is fear of confusion, and fear of persons speaking without being led by the Spirit, that prevents us doing it.

F.M. That is exactly where we need help.

G.R.C. I think perhaps the answer lies in this, that as we learn more of the intimate terms on which the Spirit is pleased to be with us, and learn to confide in Him and commune with Him, we shall find

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that we can confidently leave matters in His charge.

F.M. We would like to have that made clear. We have been thinking of the great place in 1 Corinthians 14 has in relation to the assembly, and therefore the Spirit would speak in that setting?

G.R.C. Yes. And I think it will bear on the chapter now before us as to the light. Manifestations of the Spirit are mentioned in 1 Corinthians 12, and it is through manifestations of the Spirit that divine light shines in the temple of God.

A.E.M. Should we not go forward by what is right rather than by past experience? I think the ministry meeting is right in the three-day meetings.

G.R.C. You think it would be good to give up one evening?

A.E.M. Yes. One address, one ministry meeting, and the preaching of the gospel. It is usual on the other side and has proved profitable, has it not Mr. McC?

S.McC. It has proved very profitable.

G.R.C. Are you expectant of something prophetic in the evening that you give up to the ministry meeting?

A.E.M. I would expect more power in a ministry meeting, where God is speaking direct to us, than in an enquiry. 1 Corinthians 14 speaks much about the assembly edifying the assembly, and the whole assembly came together into one place.

G.R.C. Did not Mr. Taylor make it clear that a three-day meeting such as this is really an Edinburgh meeting. It links with the local assembly in Edinburgh. So that if a ministry meeting is held on an occasion like this it would be in that setting. One is impressed with the thought of the angel that talked with Zechariah, suggesting the intimate terms on which the Spirit is pleased to be with us. Would you think the application is right?

A.E.M. Yes I think so. The first verse is interesting,

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"And the angel that talked with me came again and waked me, as a man that is wakened out of his sleep". If we connect it with days of recovery, in J.N.D.'s day, the Spirit came prominently before the brethren, and this did away with the clerical system.

G.R.C. That is very good. And do you think that the vision of chapter 4 requires more spiritual discernment than that of chapter 3? We may have received an apprehension of Paul's gospel, as recovered in these days, so that we know something of our liberty in Christ Jesus, our place before God in Him; but is it not another matter to apprehend what is established down here in the presence of the Spirit and that which He has wrought. Do not we require to be wakened out of sleep to see this?

A.E.M. Yes quite so.

J.McK. Does 1 Corinthians 14:1, "Be emulous of spiritual manifestations" set us on that line? It is not a question of having reached something once, but we are to be continually on the alert and in pursuit of it.

G.R.C. That is the point of this vision, because it supposes a continuous flow of oil to maintain a continuous outshining through the lamps, so he says, "I see, and behold, a lamp-stand all of gold". That would refer to the product of the Spirit's work. However obscured it has become, the Spirit's work is all of gold; the assembly viewed in that way is as a vessel all of gold.

S.McC. That would be a distinct help, I feel, in regard to the meeting for ministry, to see this lamp-stand all of gold; and thus not to fear as to who should take part, but to see what it is in the divine mind, do you not think?

G.R.C. It is wonderful to get the divine view. However obscure the assembly has become through the inroads of what is from man, it is still here, the product of the Spirit's work, and it is a lamp-stand all

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of gold. And then does not the bowl upon the top of it suggest a continuous flow, fed by the two sons of oil?

S.McC. I think what you are referring to just now is very important, because of the attack that the enemy is making, that, because of public ruin and breakdown in the assembly as the professing body, we cannot entertain the thought of the assembly. The enemy really is in that, is he not?

G.R.C. He is. This shows that we need to be awakened out of sleep to see it. We need to be alert. The lamp-stand all of gold is still here before God, and the seven lamps are on it, showing that the light of God in its completeness is available to us in a day of recovery. Just as the full truth of the gospel is available at the end of the dispensation, so also is the truth of the assembly. The full light of God is still available, because the Spirit Himself is still here.

S.McC. Is it not striking that, in the opening of the Revelation, stress is laid on the seven spirits of God, and their bearing upon the seven assemblies, as if to remind us that whatever may be the position publicly, there is fulness and completeness in the Spirit to meet it?

G.R.C. And the assemblies there are called golden lamps.

G.M.S. Does not the prophet Haggai speak of it in figure, prophesying at the same time when he says "The word that I covenanted with you when ye came out of Egypt, and my Spirit, remain among you: Fear ye not", chapter 2: 5.

G.R.C. That is a wonderful thing. The Spirit being here means that the full light of God as to Himself, and the full light of His thoughts as to His people, is still available to the saints, provided we are prepared to build and bring about house conditions. This lamp-stand has to be housed, and that was the point at the moment -- to build a house. If the house

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of God is not functioning, the truth of it and the order of it not maintained, there is no setting for the lamp-stand all of gold.

J.S.E. Does "this place" in Haggai 2:9 stand in vivid contrast to the land of Shinar where the ephah was carried? I thought "this place", as it is said "in this place will I give peace", represented for us the assembly as the sphere where God is at home, whereas the land of Shinar, and the allusion to the plate of lead, shows how certain matters are carried in a fixity and flexibility which allows no room for enlargement? The lamp-stand is the positive thing that we are to pursue, so that what is proper to the "place" might be filled out amongst us.

G.R.C. And as we apprehend, and are helped to function in, what is positive relative to the lamp-stand, we are enabled to judge all that is wrong. The ability to come into line with God's judgment of matters in chapter 5, depends upon our apprehending the truth of chapter 4.

J.S.E. It is a question of what we see and I would like to ask, does the lamp-stand here bear the same interpretation as the candle-stick in Exodus 25?

G.R.C. I would not think so. I think the lamp-stand here would be typical of the assembly as the vessel of light.

J.S.E. That is what I am wanting to get at, because the word for candle-stick in Exodus really is said to mean place of light. It says, "In this place I will give peace". The assembly is truly, in the mind of God, a place of light. And that being so we can dispense in our minds with the constant reference to the ruin, and proceed with the help of the Lord and of the Spirit in relation to what is normal to the place.

G.R.C. I think it would be right to say that the lamp-stand here is typical of the assembly as the vessel of light. It is a distinctive vision -- a lamp-stand all of gold with a bowl upon the top of it. It is

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a system of supply down here. There is "a bowl upon the top of it, and its seven lamps thereon, seven lamps and seven pipes to the lamps ... and two olive trees beside it, one on the right of the bowl, and the other on the left of it". So it is a system of supply depending upon two olive trees, or olive branches as they are called later, which fill the bowl; and the supplies go through the seven pipes to each of the seven lamps. It seems to me to imply the truth of the body according to 1 Corinthians 12, and in connection with what has been said as to our fears, if the seven pipes to each lamp are functioning, we need have no fear. The lamps may be applied to those through whom the light may shine at the moment. The seven suggests completeness of light, and God would surely give completeness of light in every locality, as bearing upon any situation, and the lamps would be those through whom the light shines. But they are fed by seven pipes from the bowl; so that everyone in the company should be in exercise. We would all be included in the bowl and the seven pipes to each lamp, sisters as well as brothers; it is a question of the supply of the Spirit.

F.M. With regard to what has been called attention to in Haggai, as to my spirit being with you, in verses 6 and 7 there would be a further encouragement to go on in the recognition of the great place that the Spirit has; "Not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit, saith Jehovah of hosts. Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel thou dost become a plain; and he shall bring forth the headstone with shoutings; Grace, grace unto it!". I wondered whether this would encourage us as to going forward with the matter the Lord may intend.

G.R.C. I think so. The vision is given to encourage the builders. In the vision of the lamp-stand all of gold, there is the great encouragement of seeing the assembly as wholly of divine handiwork, and of seeing that the light in its fulness is available at the

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close of the dispensation. There is no diminution. There are the seven lamps and seven pipes to the lamps, the whole idea is one of completeness. God is light, and He is in the light, and the full light is shining, but that is to encourage the builders. Building is a testing matter, but unless house conditions and the order proper to the house of God is brought about amongst us, we shall not get the gain of the lamp-stand all of gold.

A.P.C.L. Would you distinguish for us the lamp- stand and the temple as brought forward in Corinthians? It says in regard of the temple, that it can be corrupted. "If anyone corrupt temple of God, him shall God destroy", 1 Corinthians 3:17.

G.R.C. Do you not think that the temple in 1 Corinthians 3:17 links with the building in verses 4 - 7 here. It is a question of building, bringing about temple conditions. The lamp-stand is in the temple. Once we have secured holy conditions proper to God's temple we can take account of the assembly as it is according to God, as the great vessel of light, and conditions are brought about where the pipes and lamps can function.

A.P.C.L. So it says "Do ye not know that ye are temple of God", not because the Spirit dwells, but "and that the Spirit of God dwells in you". As there are temple conditions and the Spirit of God dwells, there would be the realisation of the lamp-stand all of gold that cannot be corrupted.

G.R.C. I think if we are truly in the gain of Corinthians we shall be ready for Ephesians. Corinthians brings out the idea of the lamps, that is, the manifestations of the Spirit through the members of the body, and the pipes -- everything functioning. But Ephesians says, "be filled with the Spirit". Such a suggestion does not come into Corinthians, they were not equal to it; but in Ephesians the apostle says, "be filled", it is our matter to be filled, He is

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here to fill us, here for that purpose. In Ephesians Paul is speaking to a company who are equal to such an exhortation. And that is like the bowl on top, the assembly as a vessel capable of being filled by the Spirit, so that there is no lack in the supplies through the pipes to the lamps.

A.P.C.L. So that the two olive trees are said to be on either side of the bowl, not exactly the lamps.

G.R.C. Quite so. The olive trees are on either side of the bowl to ensure that the bowl is kept filled.

A.H.G. You spoke of the seven pipes involving the sisters, sisters having their part in it. Could you say more as to how that works out in practice?

G.R.C. It is the sensitiveness of the vessel. The bowl would suggest the assembly as the vessel of the Spirit, which is to be filled, and to be kept filled, as we might say; and then, as to the way the oil is carried, I believe the spirituality of the sisters would greatly affect any ministry meeting. If the sisters are in a spiritual state, and dependent upon God, the flow will be greatly facilitated through the pipes, to the lamps. And so with all of us. If we come to the meeting in a careless state of mind, not specially exercised, no prayer beforehand in our private chambers, not in self-judgment as judging everything unsuitable to God's temple, then, when we come together, it is not surprising if there are certain manifestations which are evidently not of the Spirit. Words may be given which are not of the Spirit. There may be knowledge in them, but no power. But if we are all in exercise, every member of the body, and come together in self-judgment, realising what an important meeting the ministry meeting is, so that all the pipes are available for supply, I think we shall find that the lamps will shine.

W.W.S. Does this involve spirituality, the bowl being on the top of it, filled with the Spirit; but there is this free and unhindered flow in and through persons who are spiritual and who give place to the Spirit?

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G.R.C. The assembly is characteristically a vessel filled with the Spirit. That is what marked the beginning, and it is to mark the end of the dispensation.

J.McK. The foot-note makes it clear that there are seven pipes to each lamp. Would that imply the necessity for the holy concentration of all the brethren on the matter?

G.R.C. That is just what I thought. A brother gets up and gives a word in the power of the Spirit, but he is supplied through the seven pipes; it is not merely a personal matter, everybody in the company is in the matter, and that is why he has such power in giving the word.

S.McC. We would have that illustrated, would we not, in Luke 1:67. You will remember that the prophetic word flows out of the holy and happy conditions between Mary and Elizabeth, as evidenced in the way they greeted one another. Later it says of Zechariah that he was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, and he gave a wonderful word.

G.R.C. That is an interesting allusion. While Zacharias was speechless at the time, what an effect the conversation of those sisters must have had upon him, how his soul must have been filled. They were like the pipes, were they not, filling the lamp. Then, when his speech was restored, he gave expression to the remarkable prophecy.

A.B. Referring again to Zacharias speaking in the power of the Spirit, would it be the outcome of unbelief being dispelled by the spiritual surroundings?

G.R.C. Very good. It shows the importance of the state of the whole company, including the sisters, for it was sisters there. No doubt listening to those sisters, and seeing their faith and love, all contributed to the dispelling of his unbelief and he became available as a vessel of the Spirit. And surely those of us who are brothers have had somewhat similar experiences. We have come to the ministry meeting

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not feeling at all equal to it, but there has been such a spiritual atmosphere that, as the meeting has proceeded, we have been filled and have been able to give a word.

A.H.D. Would it be where the fulness of the Spirit is recognised, and house conditions are present, that the Spirit is free to operate, so that the Headstone is brought forth? Would it answer, in any way, to the elevated and exalted character of the ministry which the Lord is giving now, where such conditions are present, even in a day of outwardly small things?

G.R.C. I think that is right. The first part of the vision stresses the Spirit and His work in the assembly. But this is all to encourage the builders, because, while light in its fulness is available, there will not be the conditions for the bowl, pipes and lamps to function unless house conditions are maintained, holy conditions suited to God's temple. And so, the building of the house must proceed in order that the gain of the Spirit's presence may be realised, and where this is realised, we get the gain of the headship of Christ.

J.S.E. Is it important that all the wealth of this chapter flows by way of Joshua being clothed in festival robes, and capacitated to keep the house and the courts?

G.R.C. I am glad you have mentioned that, because we ought to take account of the link between these chapters. Unless we are established in the truth of the gospel, we are not ready for this chapter. But if we are established in the truth of the gospel, and our liberty in Christ Jesus, so that we are freed from the filthy garments, it involves, as a corollary, that we are freed from anything that would grieve the Spirit; we are thus ready for the assembly.

J.S.E. I feel that this matter of what is prophetic during a season like this is something that we should ponder, and give our minds to more thoroughly, because in this chapter we have the challenge as to

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who has despised the day of small things. That has to be kept in our minds, because if we begin to bring in the negative, it is like despising the day of small things, is it not?

G.R.C. It is. It is marvellous what we have, in what is outwardly a day of small things, the fulness of the truth of Paul's gospel in an enhanced way, in the festival robes, and then the fulness of the Spirit's presence and service, involving the full light of God in the temple. While 'house' conditions are essential, it does not mean that the house must be finished before we begin to prove the gain of the Spirit temple-wise. Things go on concurrently. As we are set for the building of the house and for the establishment of holiness and divine order amongst us, we begin to get the gain of the lamp-stand functioning; and the more the one proceeds, the more the other functions, all working together with a view to bringing forth the headstone, with shoutings -- a marvellous thing -- arriving at completion, the full thought of God as to Christ as Head relative to the assembly as God's abode and as the vessel of His service and praise.

J.S.E. Is that why the thought of spiritual manifestations in 1 Corinthians 14 is immediately linked with prophecy, and then edification or building is referred to?

W.S.S. I was going to refer to the same passage, prophecy necessarily being for building up or edification, and therefore the prophetic word would necessarily have the whole plan in mind and would not be detached from the whole scope of what the Spirit is bringing before us.

G.R.C. Quite so. So that the Spirit of God does not wait until the building is finished, otherwise we should not get the gain of His presence at all; but if our hearts are set towards building, and maintaining what is suitable to God, we begin to get the gain of the lamp-stand, the light of God shines, and the more

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the light shines the more energised we are in building.

J.McK. Do you think that the early verses -- verses 1 - 3 -- give us the basic furnishing by the Spirit in the assembly, but the later references -- verses 11 - 14 -- stress spirituality in what is instrumental, in the person?

G.R.C. In verses 11 - 14 Zechariah receives more light. It says, "I answered and said unto him, what are these two olive trees on the right of the lamp-stand and on its left?", and he gets no answer. It was divinely ordered that he should not get an answer, because it was time for him to think things over again himself. We must not be discouraged if we do not always get an answer to a genuine enquiry at once. If we do not get an answer, it is because God is waiting for us to think the whole matter over again as to what we have already seen. Have we seen it rightly? And so, like Zechariah, we must not be deterred, we must go on with our enquiries. He says, "I answered the second time and said unto him, What are the two olive branches?" You see, he had thought it over and looked at it again and he does not say trees now, but branches. "I answered the second time and said unto him, What are the two olive-branches which are beside the golden tubes that empty the gold out of themselves?" In looking into the matter again he had received adjustment and now has a right view.

J.S.E. Would the olive trees stand rather in relation to fulness, whereas the olive branches to the representation of it in small conditions?

G.R.C. I had been wondering whether it linked with "my servant the Branch". That is the view of Christ in this prophecy, and are we not to take character from Him?

A.P.C.L. The first question is a very general one, "What are these two olive trees on the right of the lamp-stand and on its left?"; but when he asks again it is "beside the two golden tubes". Do you think he is getting a more intimate suggestion in his own soul

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of the functioning of the matter?

G.R.C. The golden tubes were not mentioned earlier.

J.McK. I had in mind referring to what was instrumental the way the matter works out amongst the saints. You see it in its divine perfection and completion in the earlier verses, but the real question arises as to how it becomes available amongst the saints.

G.R.C. It becomes available through sons of oil. That is what we have to see. And the sons of oil are olive branches. They take character from Christ, in His glorious manhood, because the Branch is the King and the Priest, as it says in chapter 6: 12 - 13.

J.A.C. Does this stress the necessity of being in continual communion with the Spirit as to all questions that may arise in our minds, so that we become readily adjusted and brought into line with what is before Him?

G.R.C. I think the sons of oil refer to persons who are wholly characterised by the Spirit, and that is the thing to have before us as a standard -- persons wholly characterised by the Spirit in thought, feeling, action and word.

W.D. Does the Spirit select vessels, and communicate through them? Has there not been a challenge on that very point?

G.R.C. There is the general thought of what the Spirit is saying to the assemblies, that would be the general character of ministry at any time; but then, what He needs to say in localities would bear on the state of the locality. It would all be in line with the general trend of what He is saying to the assemblies, but it would bear on the immediate conditions. What was needed at Corinth was not the same as that which was needed at Ephesus or at Colosse.

W.S.S. Could I ask further about "the angel that talked with me came again", does it emphasise the

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importance of the Spirit engaging the thoughts? Ezekiel says, "And the Spirit entered into me, and set me upon my feet", Ezekiel 3:24. Then later, "When I speak with thee, I will open thy mouth", verse 27.

G.R.C. The Spirit does that with us. He speaks with us and He sets certain ones on their feet to express what should be said at that time. But then the final thing with Ezekiel is that he says "the Spirit lifted me up ... and a man was standing by me", in view of his beholding and responding to the glory of the God of Israel. That is the end in view. The great point in the temple of God is that God is there, it is the shrine itself, and if the light shines in the temple, it is in order that every whit in it should utter glory.

W.S.S. So that whether it be Ezekiel in a time of brokenness, or Zechariah, it is all leading up to the house.

G.R.C. Exactly. And another thing we ought to keep in mind is that while the light is needed for men, it is in the first instance for God. Where it speaks of the lamps being lit -- Exodus 25:37 -- the word is "cause to ascend"; it is the same word as is used of burning on the altar of burnt offering. Why I mention that is because God dwells in light. In His essential Being He dwells in light unapproachable; but if He comes to dwell amongst men it must be in conditions of light, where the light of Himself shines undimmed and where light shines as to His thoughts. And so in the tabernacle the lamp-stand lit up the whole scene that represented the divine mind. The tabernacle is called the temple of Jehovah in 1 Samuel 3:3. The temple is the shrine, God is there, and God must dwell in conditions of light. The more we make way for the light to shine by the Spirit, the more we shall experience the presence of God in His shrine.

A.C.S.P. In that connection, is it instructive that the instruction in 1 Corinthians 14 as to the meeting for ministry finishes with a reference to God as the God

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of peace, as in all the assemblies of the saints? I was linking it with what you said about the presence of God and house conditions, and wondering whether on the one hand, it would assure us that we need have no fear about arranging a meeting for ministry, because God is there as the God of peace, and on the other hand, it would make us careful in His presence.

G.R.C. If we see to it that there are conditions that secure the presence of God, we need thus have no fear.

J.A.P. And would the second look be like the second epistle to Corinthians, where light is stressed "The God who spoke that out of darkness light should shine", 2 Corinthians 4:6?

G.R.C. I think that is right, and the light was shining now into Zechariah's soul. What he says the second time is to be taken account of, "two olive branches which beside the golden tubes empty the gold out of themselves" -- not empty the oil out of themselves, but empty the gold out of themselves.

A.H.G. Would you say a little more about the gold? "Empty the gold out of themselves".

G.R.C. That is what the sons of oil do, they empty the gold out of themselves. We may come to a ministry meeting, or any other meeting, and be very concerned about the oil, and we may try to make the oil flow. But the way to secure a flow of oil is to empty the gold out of ourselves.

J.McK. Do you mean the ministry is like the pattern, like the lamp-stand itself -- gold?

G.R.C. The gold is the divine nature. Paul shows in 1 Corinthians 13 that the ministry meeting will not work without the gold. In 1 Corinthians 12 he speaks of the manifestations of the Spirit, how the oil should flow through the members of the body, but in chapter 13 he as much as says, you will get nothing of this unless you can empty the gold out of yourselves.

A.B. Would the sons of oil, in that sense, be

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possessors of divine wealth?

G.R.C. Yes, wealth in the divine nature. If we are wholly characterised by the Spirit, the fruit of the Spirit will be manifest, and the first item is love -- Galatians 5:22. So sons of oil have the capacity to empty gold out of themselves, and there is nothing that sets a meeting free like that.

A.H.G. Is your thought that the gold refers more to what the person is?

G.R.C. Gold refers to the divine nature. And the pouring out of the gold is the way of more surpassing excellence. 1 Corinthians 12:31. 1 Corinthians 12 sets out the truth of the lamp-stand in a locality, and speaks of manifestations of the Spirit. We come together and we say to ourselves, 'We hope we shall get manifestations of the Spirit tonight'. But Paul says, I will show you the way of it; I will show you the way of more surpassing excellence; if you want an atmosphere of liberty, in which there will be freedom for the oil to flow, the thing is to pour the gold out of yourselves.

A.P.C.L. Is it really characteristic? "The two golden tubes that empty the gold out of themselves".

G.R.C. It is to be characteristic. We come together as at one another's feet, in the spirit of John 13. What liberty there was after the Lord had displayed the gold in washing the feet of His own! They could ask questions freely in chapter 14; there was great liberty for enquiry and an outflow of the truth.

G.M.S. It says of the Lord "He emptied himself, taking a bondman's form".

G.R.C. Quite so. In all His path He was, as it were, emptying the gold, and thus setting people free in His presence. It is the gold that sets us free and provides an atmosphere in which the Spirit is free to use whom He will. The manifestation of the Spirit is given to each for profit; we do not know whom He is going to use on a particular night; the essential thing is to be sure that there is an abundance of love, that

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we are at one another's feet in love, so that there is nothing to hinder what the Spirit would do.

H.W. In speaking of the saints at Philippi, the apostle says he was willing to be poured out as a sacrifice for them. He had reached that state of being poured out like the Lord Himself.

G.R.C. He says to the Corinthians, "I shall most gladly spend and be utterly spent for your souls".

Ques. Referring to Acts 20 and the many lights in the upper chamber, does Paul's service in the resuscitation of Eutychus encourage us to go down?

G.R.C. That is a good illustration. There were many lights, the lamps were functioning upstairs, but Eutychus had fallen down. Paul was one who had the gold; he emptied the gold out of himself in going down to resuscitate Eutychus. Is what we are saying about the gold right, Mr. M?

A.E.M. Yes, I am greatly enjoying it.

E.B. Might we extend our enquiries as to meetings for prophetic ministry to fellowship meetings?

A.E.M. I would like to ask another question regarding the ministry meeting. Is it necessary for one brother to follow on, like the second chapter, and the third brother to follow on with the third chapter? Is it necessary for the words to be related to one another?

G.R.C. You mean the Lord might have two or three distinct words for us. I think we need help to have our minds free for that, because there is a tendency to feel that we ought to follow on.

A.E.M. As far as I am concerned, it spoils the ministry meeting of its distinctness. It is like three addresses.

G.R.C. I am glad to hear that. We should certainly make room for what is distinctive in each word, if the Lord so orders.

A.P.C.L. Would that not be implied in one having a revelation? Is that not something distinctive coming

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in during the period of the meeting?

J.S.E. Could we say that it is aptly illustrated in these two brothers, Haggai and Zechariah? Are not each of their sets of utterances to the brethren distinctive, not following on, but yet coordinated.

G.R.C. The first word of Zechariah was between those of Haggai, was it not?

J.S.E. Yes. What I meant was, Zechariah brings in the horses and the great matter of monarchical arrangement under the government of God. Whereas Haggai is distinctly laying on the brethren their negligence in relation to the house, and when they respond to that he gives them another word of comfort as to God's pleasure in what they are doing. Would not those two brothers really illustrate what Mr. M. has said?

G.R.C. I think they do. If you look at the way they treat of the powers that be, Haggai only refers to them being shaken, whereas Zechariah views them in their present usefulness to God, does he not?

V.C.L. Do you think that if we have the regulated system in the first three verses clearly in our minds first, then there is plenty of room for the utmost liberty and variety in the words which flow out?

G.R.C. So that in 1 Corinthians you have the orderly system set out in chapter 12, then the gold in chapter 13, and then the practical working out of the matter in chapter 14.

V.C.L. Is not the ministry meeting an opportunity to get substance in variety, the rays of divine glory coming out more distinctly through two or three than through one?

G.R.C. I am sure we are getting help on this point. And I would like to raise a question with Mr. M. Is it essential for two or three words to follow one another without being interspersed by worship and praise? What has impressed me is what is said about the simple person or the unbeliever coming in. He hears a word which comes to his soul as the word

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of God, and it says "falling down upon his face he will do homage to God". He does not wait till the end of the meeting. And I wonder why the saints wait till the end of the meeting.

A.E.M. Very good.

A.P.C.L. In small localities, such as ours, that matter has been in mind. It is a great stimulation for praise to be interspersed when, perhaps, only two brothers are out.

G.R.C. If we receive what we are very conscious is a living word from God, would not God expect an immediate response in worship?

A.P.C.L. I have thought the same thing.

J.McK. You mean in some contribution Godward?

G.R.C. Yes.

J.S.E. Could we come back now to the question about the fellowship meeting?

G.R.C. We are still waiting for Mr. McC. to answer that.

S.McC. Well, all that one would say about it is that we have found it very profitable at different times. There has been no stated rule governing the matter. If a number have been together for fellowship meetings, and it was felt good by the local brethren to have a meeting for ministry, we have had it, and have had gain from it. At other times the brother has been asked to give an address.

G.R.C. Does that mean then that you would leave it to the exercise before God of the local brethren?

S.McC. I should think so.

J.S.E. I think that is what we need, the understanding, as Mr. Taylor put it, that administration is local, and the brethren in the place undertake in godly concern that the best should be forthcoming for the saints.

G.R.C. That is very good. God would give them wisdom for the moment.

A.P.C.L. Before the angel actually answered

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Zechariah's question he says, "Knowest thou not what these things are? And I said, No, my lord", verse 13. Even in regard of what we are speaking about now, is there not a sincerity about feeling that you just do not know, and does not this make way for the full and distinctive answer that would come from the Spirit?

G.R.C. It is important that in this chapter he uses the term "my lord". He uses it in verse 5, and in verse 14, both times when he is admitting he does not know. I believe that attitude is right in the enquiry setting. We should all be very ready to admit we do not know, otherwise, how do we learn? And, if we link the angel with the Spirit, it means the acknowledgment of the lordship of the Spirit. But then I believe it would also imply right subjection in a young man to older spiritual men. This book is a great encouragement to young men but young men are not expected to be out of their place; and in the assembly, the place of enquiry, young men should treat with respect those who are more spiritual than themselves, and not assume to be more spiritual than they are. Is that right?

A.P.C.L. That is what I had in mind.

H.C. Is it in line with the reference to the olive branches?

G.R.C. It says of the Lord Jesus as the Branch, that "He shall grow up out of his place", Zechariah 6:12. Manhood was seen in Him in perfection at every stage of life, from childhood upwards. He is the model for us. There is every encouragement for young men, as this book shows, but it is comely that they should frankly admit their need to be taught, and that a spirit of subjection should mark them, as evidenced in Zechariah addressing the angel as "My lord".

J.S.E. Is it not interesting that in Philippi the first word that the jailor said was "Sirs".

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G.R.C. Yes. And is not that a word that is sometimes translated "Lord" in the New Testament?

J.S.E. Yes. That is why I brought it forward.

J.A.C. Is it interesting that that is the first word that Rebecca uses to the man? "Drink, my lord".

G.R.C. That is very interesting. And my impression is that, if we are really subject to the Spirit, owning His Lordship, we shall be subject to spiritual men, and treat them with respect.

H.V. Would you say a word as to 1 Corinthians 14:29. "And let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge". How are we to judge?

G.R.C. By the Spirit I would say. The seven eyes of verse 10 refer to His discernment. Words in a ministry meeting have in view edification, that is, building. Prophetic words may be exposing, but they are always to be constructive, and, as to the building, it say in verse 10 "For who hath despised a day of small things? Yea, they shall rejoice -- even those seven -- and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel: these are the eyes of Jehovah, which run to and fro in the whole earth". They observe all that is being done, and if a brother gives a word that purports to be constructive, the test is, is it in accord with the plummet? If it is in accord with the plummet, those eyes will rejoice, and that means that the spiritual element in the company will rejoice. "Let the others judge". They will judge and discern that this is a good word, cutting in a straight line the word of truth. It is in accord with the divine plan of construction.

G.M.S. So it speaks of the personal pleasure of the Holy Spirit in 1 Corinthians 12:11, in "dividing to each in particular according as he pleases", and this is a further aspect, do you think, of the Spirit's joy?

G.R.C. It is. And we may be sure that, if we make way for Him to divide as He pleases, what is brought in will be in accord with the plummet. The plummet will be in the hand of Zerubbabel.

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J.S.E. Is there any significance in the fact that it is two olive-branches, and not three? My memory goes back to a remark of Mr. Taylor's in London in 1949, about two or three, and I seem to remember that he spoke of two in a very commendable way.

G.R.C. I remember that. He seemed to imply that two would be more normal than three, did he not? We are apt to form a habit of waiting for three. True, we have to make room for three, but if there were more scope for worship in response to what God has to say, we might find that two would be sufficient.

J.S.E. I was impressed with the allusion to homage and praise. If I were impressed with the power of a word and, may be, its particular bearing on myself, I would probably be moved to give thanks for it and to render homage in the presence of God.

G.R.C. So Paul in 1 Corinthians 14 speaks of singing and of giving thanks. I do not think he means that he would leave his singing and giving thanks till the close of the meeting -- a kind of formal close with a hymn and prayer.

F.M. Do you think that now we are furnished with such a variety of hymns it would be a suitable time for the use of such.

G.R.C. I do.

F.M. Many small meetings have taken on the ministry meeting; and it may sometimes be that they only have one word, but the hymn book would furnish them with much in the way of worship and praise.

G.R.C. In the temple every whit utters glory. The service of God proceeds in the temple; it is there that the Seraphim say "Holy, holy, holy is Jehovah of hosts;" etc. Of course, we have to keep in mind what Mr. Taylor also said, that God speaking to us must be greater than our speaking to God. He spoke from off the mercy seat. In the oracle of the house, God speaks, and we do not want to hinder Him by

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turning it into a "praise meeting". Nevertheless, there is scope for praise and worship in response to His speaking.

S.McC. How do you understand the word in 1 Chronicles 25:3 where it says of the sons of Jeduthun that they "prophesied with the harp, to give thanks and to praise Jehovah"?

G.R.C. I think it bears on what we are saying, and is very interesting, because an expression of thanksgiving and worship, and a hymn also, should be prophetic. Indeed, as regards the morning meeting, we have surely experienced that the service of song is prophetic. It is not prophetic as bearing on our state, but as bringing to us the mind of God in its fulness according to purpose; and the benefit of having the mind of God brought to us in worship and song is that we are carried into it consciously, because, as you will remember, the word "music" in 1 Chronicles 15:22 could be translated "transport".

S.McC. Just so. And it says in 1 Chronicles 25:5, "all these were sons of Heman the king's seer in the words of God, to exalt his power". That would link on, would it not?

G.R.C. It would. So that you would not shut out prophecy from the service following the Lord's Supper?

S.McC. I think it is very important that we should expect God to speak to us in some way or another. That would be a normal outlook in the assembly.

G.R.C. And often there would be a direct word.

G.M.S. Do we have that in Mark 14, "And having sung a hymn, they went out to the mount of Olives. And Jesus said to them, All ye shall be offended"; a prophetic word, following the hymn?

G.R.C. Yes. Of course in the Lord's Supper the prophetic word would normally be relative to purpose, to bring before us what is true in the mind of God. It is a great thing to have that kind of prophecy, and it

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is particularly suitable in the service following the Lord's Supper. In the ministry meeting in the week, the Spirit of God often has to bring before us things that bear on our state; that might also be needed in the morning meeting; but, if so, it would be sad, I should think. If our state is right, a word in the morning meeting presents things in their purity and blessedness before God. And, while a direct word is to be looked for, yet the very hymns and thanksgivings are prophetic in character, because they express in praise the mind of God according to purpose.

J.McK. J.N.D. in his preface to the hymn-book speaks of the hymn as being the vehicle that sets the soul in communion with Christ and the Father.

A.T. In Revelation 7:12, after the prophetic word is unfolded, there is "Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and strength to our God". Then there is a reference to "My lord, thou knowest", verse 14 -- and the answer to the question follows.

G.R.C. That is a very interesting illustration of what is in mind; the prophetic word followed by worship, and then by further enquiry, in the spirit of subjection, by John. He is prepared to say, "My lord".

H.W. If we have had a prophetic word during the week, ought it not to affect our prayer meetings? One does not often remember actual references in the prayer meeting to the prophetic word given the previous week.

G.R.C. That is a humbling thing. One has noticed in the prayer meetings in advance of the ministry meeting, a good deal of prayer is made for that meeting; but although the prayer is answered and we all feel God has spoken to us, yet it seems to be forgotten by the next Monday, and that is a solemn thing.

A.P.C.L. You were speaking about sisters in connection

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with the pipes of supply. Would not a hymn give opportunity for the sisters to come vocally into what is responsive?

G.R.C. Quite so. The whole company is in the matter of response to God.

S.R. Micah called for a minstrel at a difficult point in his ministry.

G.R.C. That bears on what we have said as to praise and worship coming between words in the ministry meeting, helping them forward.

J.A.P. There is an interesting foot-note to Proverbs 30 to the word "uttered" -- "burden or oracle, as music".

J.H. Could we have a word as to the ministry meeting being in a locality? The prophetic word may be given to those moved by the Spirit in a locality, but the final answer is seen in the two sons of oil that stand before the Lord of the whole earth. What may be given in a locality has its effect universally as under the Lord's hand?

G.R.C. I think sons of oil would always have the universal rights of God in mind. The word "Lord" here would refer to His rights. We would, of course, have in mind His rights to the whole earth, but specially at the present time His universal rights in the assembly. What is said in any locality should be in keeping with those universal rights, and thus, while specially suited to the locality where uttered, it should be profitable for saints anywhere.

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READING FOUR

Zechariah 6

G.R.C. The teaching of chapter 5 seems to be that, as having apprehended the true character of the assembly in chapter 4, we are now able, like the prophet, to lift up our eyes again and take account of what professes the name of Christ according to God's own estimate of it. We cannot judge what is wrong and evil until we are possessed of what is right. The flying roll indicates, as applied to our day, how God will deal with all that is hypocritical in the christian profession. There are those who steal; they would be those who make a profession in regard to things that are not their own at all. The festival robes were not stolen; Joshua had been through exercise and he came to know the grace of God and the gift of God. But there are those in the profession around who take upon themselves the handling of spiritual things which are not their property at all. The other side of the roll deals with those that swear falsely, "everyone that sweareth shall be cut off according to it on that side". The Lord's name is attached to things which are utterly hateful to Him, as it says in verse 4, "him that sweareth falsely by my name". Then while the flying roll deals with the responsibility of individual professors, the next vision -- verses 5 - 11 -- deals with the corporate, professing body; and, if we understood that vision, we shall name it as the angel names it, "This is Wickedness". That is, we judge as iniquity everything that has been brought into God's house which is contrary to Him. We say "This is Wickedness". The Ephah may suggest how commercialism and love of gain governs the profession and the woman

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would bring in the element of mystery, the mystery of lawlessness working. The weight of lead on the mouth may indicate that it is restrained at the present time; but it will yet be put on to its own base, it will be shown to be just what it really is, it is just Babylon. Israel was Babylonish before ever she was taken. Babylon, and the Christian profession has become Babylonish and therefore, in its final phase, it is seen as Babylon. But we are to come to a judgment of it now, and this expression is very pungent, "he said, This is Wickedness". It is a great thing to come to a clear judgment of what is false and to name it as wickedness, so that we are free to go on with what is good.

In chapter 6 we get further help as to God's operations in government and our outlook upon the Gentile monarchies, and in the latter part of the chapter an idea of the wealth that accrues from God's governmental dealings, for in their results they really enhance the priesthood and our appreciation of Christ.

W.S.S. The land of Shinar is Babylon.

G.R.C. Quite so, and Stephen shows in his address that Israel was transported to Babylon because they were already Babylonish "I will transport you beyond Babylon", Acts 7:43. He brings that in after referring to the golden calf. But I think the Lord would help us in our outlook on the Gentile Monarchies as viewed in this prophet.

S.McC. What was read before the meeting started should help us as to this matter, because it is remarkable that there should have been way made for the brethren in Australia in respect of trade unions and associations. As yet way has not been made in the U.S.A. which is a great concern. Some have been saying that the spirit of intercession you referred to earlier needs to be more intensified.

G.R.C. It is good to be reminded of the need for

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that in connection with the U.S.A. because it may not be widely known over here.

W.S.S. Is it not the same in some of the continental countries?

G.R.C. Yes. I hear that the brethren in France are considering an approach to the Authorities as to a conscience clause in respect of military service. This view of the Authorities is an elevated one. J.N.D. says that a horse is representative of divine energy in government, and that would be the view of it here; it is not government viewed as merely in the hands of men. These chariots with horses are said to be the four spirits of the heavens which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth. They are thus under control. "The heavens do rule", as it says in Daniel, Daniel 4:26 and the Gentile Monarchies, from this point of view, are governed and directed by the four spirits of the heavens which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth, so that what they do stands related to the operations of the Lord of all the earth.

S.McC. So we have no riders in this chapter, whereas in the Revelation the riders are made something of. I thought the fact that the riders were absent from this prophetic view here strengthens what you are saying. When the rider comes in it brings in what man is, does it not, in his operations.

G.R.C. Quite so. No riders are mentioned here, as though, as regards the governments themselves, there is no intelligence as to why they are doing what they are doing. But we know, for this is faith's view of the matter, that what they are doing is under the direction of the four spirits of the heavens.

A.E.M. Sometimes the saints have to acquaint the authorities with what should be done.

G.R.C. Do you think this view of the authorities would help as to that?

A.E.M. I think so. They had to do with the High

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Court in the U.S.A.

G.R.C. So that faith, I suppose, as enlightened by this vision, could approach the Authorities in the recognition that they are really responsible, whether they know it or not, to the Lord of all the earth. I believe that, in many cases, even ungodly men, once they get into power, are made to feel that there is a power greater than themselves directing the operations of government.

H.W. It might be interesting for the brethren to know at this juncture that those in authority in Sydney encouraged the brethren to go round and let their views be well known to all the parties concerned, including the Opposition, the leader of which was very favourable to what the brethren had to say. Many questions were raised which really resulted in instruction for those who were in authority as to what to do.

Ques. Do the brethren think it necessary that we should wait on the government? In South Africa the brethren have come out from the unions but the government have not moved yet.

G.R.C. I think what we should do is to wait on God. God is our resource, the Lord of all the earth. We should wait on God in prayer and seek wisdom from Him as to waiting upon the government. And then, whatever we find the attitude of the government to be, even if it is not favourable to us for the time being, we must be faithful to God. It is incumbent upon us to be separate from evil associations. In Daniel's day there were times when they had to suffer; the government for the time being was not favourable and the only way out was to suffer. But then God was with them in their sufferings and the testimony they rendered in suffering led the Government, in due course, to amend the law.

S.McC. I think it is important to see that, in regard to our current matters, it may not involve that

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a way is completely opened up. Some may have to suffer, but the testimony is kept before men and the Authorities in that way, as to what God has here.

G.R.C. Do you not think it would be a mistake if we, in our approach to the Authorities, simply had in mind to avoid suffering. We would put before them what is right and wait for God about it, and if God disposes of them in our favour, we thank Him for it. But behind all that there should be the preparedness to suffer. Daniel's companions said that their God was able to deliver them, but even if He did not deliver them they nevertheless could not obey the king. Their minds were made up. Sometimes the testimony requires, does it not, that the saints should go through a period of suffering, but in the end God will operate. The Authorities, through the very testimony rendered in suffering, will be brought to do what is right.

J.S.E. Does not Daniel's experience in chapter 6 of his book have its ultimate answer in Nehemiah, to whom the king said, "For what dost thou make request?" Daniel was prepared to suffer, but Nehemiah finds favour before the king and is given leave to proceed with what is the exercise of his soul.

G.R.C. So that Daniel, on account of cherishing Jerusalem and opening his windows three times a day towards Jerusalem, has to suffer the lion's den, but then, as the result of that the situation is entirely changed and, in Nehemiah's day, the monarch is favourable, and when he mentions the needs of Jerusalem the monarch opens the way for him to go and do what he would desire to do.

A.N.G. Is there a parallel in the case in the Acts where, in the early part, the brethren were forbidden to preach, but as under higher authority they continued in it and later Peter was put in prison and had to suffer. But in that case there was a direct intervention by God associated with the prayers of the

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brethren -- Acts 12.

G.R.C. Quite so. Earlier Peter and the others had to suffer and rejoiced to be counted worthy to suffer for the name; but then in the later incident as you say, God came in and released Peter; he suffered, he was in prison and restful in it, but God came in and released him and dealt with the opposing power.

J.McK. How remarkable is Nebuchadnezzar's word, "Nebuchadnezzar spoke and said, blessed be the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed Nego, who hath sent his angel, and delivered his servants who trusted in him, and who changed the king's word, and yielded their bodies, that they might not serve nor worship any god, except their own God!" Daniel 3:28. Changing the king's word is a very fine expression of power on the part of men who were prepared to go into the furnace.

G.R.C. It was a greater testimony than if God had intervened earlier and changed Nebuchadnezzar's outlook. There was a far greater testimony through the brethren suffering and the change coming through their suffering. So that we must be prepared for any eventuality. God in mercy raised up a man like Cyrus, who from the outset was favourable to His people, but, on the other hand, there were other Monarchs who had not that viewpoint. All was ordered in relation to the testimony at the time. Sometimes the testimony requires that we should suffer.

W.S.S. The testimony has come down to us through the martyrs and is continued in the spirit of martyrdom.

G.R.C. My own impression is that the liberty of conscience now enjoyed in the British Commonwealth can be traced back to the martyrs, especially in the United Kingdom. Their sufferings produced a national conscience. You may remember when certain brethren some years ago were given notice to terminate their employment in the London area through

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refusal to join an association (they were employed by local authorities), the national conscience was aroused; the people went back in their minds to the martyrs and insisted that England must not allow the revival of religious persecution.

W.S.S. And is it not wholesome to remember that the testimony continues in the spirit of martyrdom.

V.C.L. Is there a link with Philippians 1:27 where the apostle says, "Only conduct yourselves worthily of the glad tidings of the Christ" and then he speaks of demonstration, and then adds it "has been given, as regards Christ, not only the believing on him but the sufferings for him". Should the three sides, the gospel demonstration and then the sufferings be worked out by us?

G.R.C. The sufferings are thus regarded as a privilege, are they not? It is a privilege to suffer if it is going to enhance the testimony.

Ques. Is there any difference between what is political and what is military. I notice in the Acts the military authorities are favourable to Paul but the political authorities are not.

G.R.C. I do not think we have anything to do with politics. God disposes of the Ballot box. He orders as to which persons should be in power at any time. He may put the basest of men in power, as is said in Daniel, if it suits His purpose. But it is He Who orders, not the electorate. But when the Authorities wield the sword, so the military come into the matter in a particular way, and, generally, the military power protects the saints. We would not be able to meet here in peace apart from it.

A.H.D. It would seem that these powers or authorities move under the direction of the angel do they not -- see verse 7. "And he said Go, walk to and fro through the earth". In the light of that would it not be incumbent upon us to be in subjection to the Authorities?

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G.R.C. If we make requests it is in the spirit of subjection, and if we suffer and are unable to obey it is still in the spirit of subjection. We are always to be subject in our spirits whatever happens. These spirits of the heavens go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth. All four empires are mentioned here, and if we look at the use to which the Lord of all the earth has put them we shall see that the red horses, representing Babylon, were used for chastening. They carried the people captive, and held them captive for seventy years. Then the black horses, that is Persia, went forth into the north country, and, according to verse 8, they quieted God's spirit in the north country, because they overthrew Babylon. Babylon had not only acted as a disciplinary agent, but had excessively oppressed God's people and the time was ripe, the seventy years were accomplished. This therefore links with chapter 1: 11 "they answered the angel of Jehovah that stood among the myrtle trees, and said, We have walked to and fro through the earth, and behold, all the earth sitteth still and is at rest"; and then verse 15. "I am wroth exceedingly with the nations that are at ease; for I was but a little wroth, and they helped forward the affliction". That refers to the time when God was wroth because the whole earth was at ease under Babylonish power and His people were still in captivity and being treated cruelly. But this chapter shows that He raised up the Persian power and they went towards the north country, that is Babylon, and they quieted His spirit in the north country because they overthrew Babylon. His spirit was quieted because a power which was favourable to His people had now gained the ascendancy.

W.B. Does that connect with Isaiah 14:7 where the destruction of Babylon leads to the whole earth being at rest and quiet, and they break forth into singing?

G.R.C. Quite so. Then to follow our chapter

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the white horses go after the black. Not much is said here about the white, which represent the Grecian power, which is always hostile and used as a disciplinary agent; but stress is laid on the grizzled and the strong, which refer to two aspects of the Roman power. It was under the Roman Empire that Christ was to come, God's testimony was to go forward and the truth of the assembly was to be developed, and the definite commission given to this power is stated. It says, "the strong go forth and seek to go that they may walk to and fro through the earth. And he said Go, walk to and fro through the earth". The commission to the Roman power was to open up the highways, and this activity has characterised it throughout. It opened up the highways for the gospel in the first instance, and the highways, seaways, and finally, airways have been opened up ever since, all with a view to the spread of the truth. Men use them for other purposes, but the real reason they have been opened up is for the spread of the truth.

W.S.S. There are no riders on these horses, but there is one Rider in verse 8 of chapter 1 who represents the Lord of all the earth and Who is governing the movements of all these horses?

G.R.C. Exactly. The authorities do not realize the divine purpose that lies behind what they do; their own purposes are confused and they hardly know what to do from day to day; but behind it all there is divine control and they are carrying out their work according to divine commission.

J.H. The authorities may not know exactly what they are doing, but is not the mind of heaven expressed in that they are under control as coming "from between two mountains ... of brass"?

G.R.C. Does that not suggest that they are compelled to move according to the fixed principles of God's government?

S.McC. It is interesting that the great chapter in

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the New Testament which deals with the powers that be -- Romans 13 -- opens with the word "Let every soul be subject to the authorities that are above". The "him" is added to complete the sentence in English. Does that not bring in the elevated side you are referring to?

G.R.C. That is very interesting, for it goes on to say "For there is no authority except from God; and those that exist are set up by God. So that he that sets himself in opposition to the authority resists the ordinance of God; and they who thus resist shall bring sentence of guilt on themselves". It is very solemn.

S.McC. It is. There is really an abstruse allusion to the assembly in the expression "Let every soul be subject to the authorities that are above". The assembly would be included in what is 'above'. It is more than just a physical and material reference, there is a moral and spiritual reference, is there not?

G.R.C. God's direct government is in the assembly, the government we are speaking of now is indirect and providential, it is only seen by faith, and even the eye of faith does not discern the details of it, but we know it is there. Faith accepts the fact and prays accordingly and acts accordingly; but as to God's ways providentially it says, "how unsearchable his judgments and untraceable His ways". But then God's direct government is in the assembly, so that the eyes in chapter 33 "upon one stone are seven eyes" stand related to the house; they are in the foundation of the house. Then in chapter 4: 10, these seven eyes "they shall rejoice -- even those seven -- and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel". The Spirit, as suggested in those seven eyes, rejoices, and all who are spiritual rejoice with Him, in seeing the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel and the building going on according to the truth. But then it goes on to say "these are the eyes of Jehovah, which

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run to and fro in the whole earth". There is a link between government in the house of God, where it is direct, and government in the whole earth.

S.McC. I am sure it is important to see that.

G.R.C. It is divine government in either case, whether direct or indirect. Soon the assembly will be the great vessel of direct government under Christ in the whole universe. At present the direct government of God is in the assembly but the eyes that direct and control that, are also vigilantly watching all that is proceeding in the way of indirect government, because it says "there is he who restrains" referring to the operations of the Spirit. Would you say that is right?

S.McC. That is right.

H.B. Is there something in the fact that those eyes run, verse 10 whereas the horses only walk, as emphasising the vigilance of the Holy Spirit of God?

G.R.C. That is very interesting. It shows the vigilance of the blessed Holy Spirit in this matter. "There is he who restrains", and how vigilant He is in watching to see that the Authorities do not get out of hand, if one might use such an expression. The restraint is maintained.

D.A. Would there be any room for fasting as well as prayers? In Esther 4:16 she asked for fasting before going in into the king?

G.R.C. You are thinking of our actually approaching the Authorities?

D.A. I wondered what the brethren felt. I recall Mr. Taylor Senior saying he believed the saints would yet realise the need of collective fasting, and I wondered if the two would go together, praying and fasting, in order that God may be free to come in, because His power is unlimited?

G.R.C. Are you thinking that if there is collective prayer and fasting, then we could approach the Authorities and make our request?

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D.A. The suffering might be on the part of a few, but I wondered if there would be what is open to all?

G.R.C. Quite so. Mr. McC. was referring recently to "He purposed in his heart, but also made request".

S.McC. That is right. He proposed to the steward what should be done, showing how he could enlighten the steward as to how the matter could be worked out. But I think it is important that we should bear in mind all this that there must be preparedness to suffer. Because we do certain things, God is not bound to come in and give deliverance in the way we think. The test came with some of us who lost our jobs. We fasted for three weeks and yet we lost our jobs. Suffering is a great matter, I think.

G.R.C. You can speak of this experimentally in a way that few of us can. It is helpful to hear what you say.

Geo.D. There are those sitting in this building today who have proved it.

G.R.C. Are there not times when the testimony requires that there should be some suffering? Is not God considering the requirements of the testimony? Generally, no doubt, He would come in and make a way through, He would not willingly allow suffering, but sometimes the testimony requires it.

S.McC. So that at Corinth the Lord appeared to Paul and told him that no one would set on him to hurt him, but at Antioch and Iconium he suffered and at Lystra he was drawn out for dead. We have to bear in mind both sides of the truth, do we not?

G.R.C. May we be prepared for whatever the exigencies of the testimony demand. The Spirit is with us and capable of supporting us through every situation.

S.McC. After all the One Who is our Master suffered e'en to death, did He not?

Ques. The brethren in Eastern Germany are

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suffering. Has there been any alleviation there, do you know?

G.R.C. There has been a certain amount of alleviation. The position as to food and clothing is not so straightened as it was. The path of separation involves more suffering there than in this country. There are also localities where gatherings of more than twelve persons are forbidden, and the brethren thus have to meet in small numbers in private houses. I think the Lord would stimulate our prayers and intercession for the brethren in East Germany and in Russia. There is evidence that there are still those walking in the truth in Russia, though few in number, and I think we would do well to supplicate God as to the rulers of that Country.

W.H. You would bring the rulers of Russia into your prayers as well as others would you?

G.R.C. Certainly.

W.H. Will there be a difference after the assembly has gone? The ruling powers will be apostate then?

G.R.C. I think there will be a difference, because the dragon gives authority to the best, does he not?

J.McK. The expression "the Lamb's wife" suggests a share of suffering.

A.C.S.P. Does verse 8 of our chapter show how important it is to consider the Authorities in the light in which God is viewing them. Zechariah uses the extraordinary expression, "he cried unto me, and spoke unto me, saying, See these that go forth towards the north country have quieted my spirit". Is it a question of considering how everything affects God? Is that why the urgency of a cry marks it?

G.R.C. God is intensely affected by anything that affects His people, do you not think? He was intensely affected by the oppression of His people in Babylon, and His feelings were expressed, I would say, in that cry.

J.M. Does 1 Peter 2:13 - 25 help us? He brings in

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the authorities and our being subject to them, but then he goes on to speak of suffering and doing good which is acceptable to God.

G.R.C. That is helpful. Peter says "Shew honour to all, love the brotherhood, fear God, honour the king". We are always to honour the king, whatever the position may be. Daniel and his companions always honoured the king, whatever his attitude to them might be; they could not always obey him, but they honoured him.

W.H. Does not Peter link on these sufferings with judgment beginning from God's house? "Beloved, take not as strange the fire of persecution which has taken place amongst you for your trial, as if some strange thing was happening to you; but as ye have share in the sufferings of Christ, rejoice, that in the revelation of his glory also ye may rejoice with exultation", 1 Peter 4:12 and 13. And then he goes on to say, "For the time of having the judgment begin from the house of God is come; but if first from us, what shall be the end of those who obey not the glad tidings of God? And if the righteous is difficultly saved, where shall the impious and the sinner appear?" verse 17.

H.B. Does this principle of suffering for the testimony go right through to Revelation 11, as seen in the two witnesses, how they suffered to death, and what heaven thinks of them? The great voice out of heaven said to them, "Come up here".

G.R.C. Just so. Before we leave the matter of government one would just like to say that Daniel was written before Zechariah, so that this is additional instruction to that in Daniel. Zechariah's view of the authorities should encourage the brethren to make themselves acquainted with the varied views of them in Daniel. Nebuchadnezzar's image has a meaning of its own. Following that Daniel first sees them as four wild beasts, the lion, the bear, the leopard and the

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indescribable beast, the Roman Empire; and then, in the next vision, he sees the Persian and Grecian Empires only viewed as domestic, useful animals. I mention this because I believe, in our prayers for kings and those in dignity, we need to have some understanding of the book of Daniel as well as Zechariah.

A.P.C.L. As to Nebuchadnezzar's image, do you not think in a certain sense, the whole four go on to the end; because, when the stone cut out without hands falls on the feet, it is said that the whole thing is there, the gold, the silver, the brass and the iron.

G.R.C. I think the viewpoint of Nebuchadnezzar's image is the viewpoint of Romans 13, that the powers that exist are set up by God. As you say, the gold does not disappear until the stone comes. The principle implied in the gold is that authority is of God, and that there is no authority except from God, and the principle of the authority being derived from God remains until the Lord comes, until the stone strikes the image, because the gold is there then. Similarly the principle of silver remains. It first came into evidence in the Persian Empire, but it would be seen in any government that recognises God's rights over His people. God reserves the right to maintain that kind of government insofar as He pleases, throughout the times of the Gentiles. Whatever Empire is actually in power He can raise up rulers of "silver" character as we have proved in the British Commonwealth. But then there is the Grecian power, the brass, which is always disciplinary, and infidel, and we have experienced that in the past two wars. God has used, as instruments of discipline, infidel men in power. Then there are the legs and feet, that is the Roman power, the power that opens the highways, the power for movement. We are thankful for the Roman power, because the highways are open; and we are even thankful for the corrupt form

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of government called democracy, bringing in the mixture of iron and clay, because it is accompanied by liberty of conscience so that the people of God can get through. The image, therefore, seems to show that the powers that exist are set up by God and He uses them for His own purposes.

A.P.C.L. I was thinking of the balance of Romans 13 as regards suffering. It has been in some minds that, if you have to be subject to the Authorities above you, it means that you have to accept what they say. But is not the whole point the spirit in which you take issue with it -- the spirit of subjection and suffering.

S.McC. As was said earlier, an intelligent understanding of the governments would help us as to prayer. For instance we would not pray for the prosperity of the Russian Government in the sense of its Communistic form, because it is against the assembly and it is against the gospel. Therefore we pray intelligently that God will set His face against it.

G.R.C. Quite so. He can depose kings and He can change the hearts of kings. We would pray on that line, would we not?

S.McC. You would pray for the prosperity of the governments that make way for the truth of the gospel and the truth of the assembly.

G.R.C. You would indeed. That is where we need to be intelligent as to how to pray, for kings and all in dignity.

A.N.G. Do you think Hebrews would corroborate what you are saying. It is the book of the opened heavens and of our liberty and access to God. In chapter 13: 8 Paul says, "Pray for us" and then in verse 23, "Know that our brother Timotheus is set at liberty". Is our liberty and access into the presence of God to be used for the prosperity of Paul's ministry and the liberation of the personnel to work it out?

G.R.C. That is the line on which we should supplicate God as to the authorities. If God is pleased

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to raise up disciplinary powers we humble ourselves under them, but the line of our supplication would be that God would use the powers to make way for the truth and for Paul's ministry in particular. The sons of oil stand before the Lord of the whole earth; that is, spiritual men have nothing less than the universal position before them, and they know that God, in His overruling government, has the universal position before Him, and they pray in relation to the spiritual side of the universal position. And that involves that the saints should be set at liberty to pursue the truth and the Lord's interests unhinderedly.

W.D. Is it not remarkable that Paul himself chose to appeal to Caesar rather than to suffer under a Jewish Tribunal? Would that be the balance of the two sides, the suffering side and yet taking advantage of what God has established.

J.A.F. Would it be appropriate to refer to Isaiah 37:35, "I will defend this city, to save it, for mine own sake, and for my servant David's sake". Do you think God would see to it that that is preserved which speaks to Him in a practical way of the assembly?

G.R.C. I am certain of that. The Assyrian who had come up to challenge His interests was a disciplinary power, but God would not let them go further than would serve His end; and His end at that time was to bring out the glory of Emmanuel -- what "God with us" really meant.

J.S.E. What is the bearing of the address as to Smyrna and Pergamos? In the address to Smyrna, all the brethren were subjected to suffering, and the Lord gives them a special word to be faithful; but when we come to the address to Pergamos, there is one man to whom he refers, "Antipas my faithful witness ... who was slain among you". Is it essential that one person at least in a place, should be prepared to take this road to the extreme limit, in order to make way for

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the rest of the saints?

G.R.C. Very good. The general state in Pergamos was not equal to it, but there was one man who was.

And now we ought to pass on to the latter part of the chapter. It illustrates the way God's governmental dealings are used of Him to enable the saints to acquire spiritual wealth. It says, "Take gifts of them of the captivity, of Heldai, of Tobijah, and of Jedaiah, and come thou the same day, and enter into the house of Josiah the son of Zephaniah, whither they are come from Babylon". In Babylon, the first of the Empires, they had suffered under God's judicial dealings, but, as accepting the suffering from God in subjection to the authority, they had acquired silver and gold. You might say, 'How could captives acquire silver and gold?', but that is just what they had done; they had acquired, as we should say, spiritual wealth through submitting to God's governmental dealings.

W.W.S. Are you suggesting then that, as the result of the captivity, and all that that involves, there is to be this yield which will make for the honouring and the dignifying of what is priestly?

G.R.C. That is what I thought. They come back with silver and gold, which I would link with chapters 3 and 4. Chapter 3 would show what a deep sense the returned captives had of the value of redemption, and chapter 4, what a deep valuation they would put upon the work of the Spirit here, the lamp-stand all of gold. They had acquired these things in their souls as submitting to God's judicial dealings with them. And it was all to adorn the priesthood, "make crowns, and set them upon the head of Joshua the son of Jehozadak, the high priest". Again here we have something additional which does not appear in Exodus, showing that, in some respects, post captivity days are the best. Not only was the pure turban

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upon the head of Joshua, but crowns were placed on his head. These were the direct result of getting the gain of the captivity.

E.J.B. Is the end of the dispensation enriched by all the experiences with God in the various circumstances of the whole dispensation?

G.R.C. Being at the end we have a certain advantage, if we are equal to it.

T.T. Did they begin like this, with utensils of silver and utensils of gold, in leaving Egypt?

G.R.C. In leaving the world initially they acquired silver and gold. Now in leaving Babylon, they get silver and gold which is put to this exalted use of adorning and enhancing the priesthood.

A.N.G. Would it have some connection with taking on heavenly ministry? Psalm 110, where the Lord is priest upon His throne is referred to here. But as the priestly company take on spiritual things, do they become like the One in heaven?

G.R.C. It is remarkable that, while the crowns are set upon the head of Joshua, nobody is occupied with Joshua. It makes way for occupation with a "man whose name is the Branch", verse 12. The more the saints, in the sight of God, are adorned and enhanced in their priestly functions by what they have acquired in the captivity, the more they will be occupied with, and able to apprehend, the greatness of Christ. They will not be occupied with themselves. Joshua was not occupied with his crowns, nor were his friends occupied with the crowns upon Joshua, they were occupied with a Man whose name is the Branch.

W.W.S. Do you mean the more we are set to adorn what is priestly, the more room is made for the bringing in of choice impressions of Christ, as suggested in the Branch?

G.R.C. Yes. Choice impressions, and also making way for Him personally amongst the saints.

J.McK. In Revelation 4 the elders cast their crowns

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before the throne saying, "Thou art worthy".

G.R.C. So here, the object of every gaze is a Man. It says "Behold". Our attention is directed to Him. "Behold a man whose name is the Branch; and he shall grow up from his own place, and he shall build the temple of Jehovah". You may say, Well, we have been building. According to chapters 3 and 4, Zerubbabel had been building. But we are not occupied now with our building. If anything we have done is effective it is because it is His building. We are occupied with the true Builder. "He shall build the temple of Jehovah: even he shall build the temple of Jehovah; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne; and the counsel of peace shall be between them both" -- emphasising His deity -- "them both", referring to Jehovah and the Man that is His Fellow.

A.H.G. I think earlier on you spoke of the Branch in the great thought of dependence.

G.R.C. That is still here, "He shall grow up from his own place". What an appreciation this priestly company has of Christ as the One Who grew up from His own place, perfect in every stage of His manhood. But now, no longer in the place where He grew up, but exalted and the Builder, He is on the throne. He is bearing the glory and He is sitting and ruling upon His throne; that is, He is the King; and then "He shall be a priest upon His throne". He is the King and the Priest.

Alex. T. Would you regard that as the answer to Isaiah 53:2 "He shall grow up before him", and verse 4. "Surely he hath borne our griefs and carried our sorrows". Here, as the Branch growing up from His own place, He shall bear the glory?

G.R.C. I think there is a link between this and Isaiah 53, "He shall grow up before him as a tender sapling, and as a root out of a dry ground", stressing His dependence upon God. He drew nothing from

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the ground here. He is the true Man, a Man whose name is the Branch, and He grew up from His own place. What an example for us! We each must grow up from our own place, and take care of our own place and our responsibilities there. And then, "he shall build the temple of Jehovah". What a great thing it is when He comes before us as the Builder! We are seeking to build, but if anything of real value is built, He has done it. He may have used us, but He has done it. He is the Builder. It is repeated, "He shall build the temple of Jehovah; even he shall build the temple of Jehovah" and then "He shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne". How glorious it is to get a view of Christ like this, and, in post captivity days, the days in which we live, to realise His presence amongst us.

J.H. Is there any encouragement in the two references to the Branch in the prophet Jeremiah? In chapter 23: 5 it says "Behold, the days come, saith Jehovah, when I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, who shall reign as King", and later, "This is his name whereby he shall be called Jehovah our Righteousness", verse 7; and then in chapter 33: 16 "In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David ... and this is the name by which she shall be called"; referring to Jerusalem, "Jehovah our righteousness". Will Jerusalem yet be brought into full correspondence with the Branch, and is the assembly, now, to be brought into correspondence with Christ?

G.R.C. How remarkably the assembly answers to Christ, He is the King of righteousness, and the assembly is the city of righteousness. And He is the King of Salem, the King of peace, and Jerusalem means the place of peace.

S.McC. We have been speaking about Christ being distinguished before our souls, particularly; and

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the result is that Helem and Tobijah, and Jedaiah become distinguished. The crowns, verse 14, are for them for a memorial in the temple of Jehovah, and they that are far off shall come and build at the temple of Jehovah. We get the saints coming in as distinguished, do we not?

G.R.C. We do. Would you link those crowns with the Lord's word to Philadelphia, "Hold fast what thou hast that no man take thy crown"? Philadelphia refers to christians as having returned from the captivity and it is a wonderful thing that those who return and who form Philadelphia, should have crowns. The Lord does not say there 'a crown of righteousness' or 'a crown of life', it is "thy crown", as though the personnel of that assembly have crowns like these men, that are laid up as a memorial in the temple of Jehovah. And we are to hold fast that nobody takes them away.

S.McC. And is it not so that in Philadelphia Christ is particularly enshrined in the affections of His people, particularly distinguished, so that He is able to speak about the things that are so near to His heart?

G.R.C. That is beautiful. If Christ secures this place of entire distinction amongst the saints, it will give us capacity to appreciate all that is so precious to Him. "I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem that comes out of heaven from my God, and my new name". It gives us capacity to take in the whole range of divine thoughts, in such a manner that they are written upon us, a marvellous thing.

W.H. Do you get the return of God's direct government, in contrast to His providential dealings, in the fact that He shall bear the glory and He shall sit and rule upon His throne?

G.R.C. Quite so. That is what we are looking on to, the Lord Himself taking up the direct government

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in the whole universe, when the times of the Gentiles are finished. But then, we anticipate that in the assembly, do we not? He bears the glory now amongst the saints, and amongst the saints He now sits and rules upon His throne, and He is a Priest upon His throne. And in that spiritual setting we can take in the most precious thoughts of God. And I believe it is important to recognise that only in temple conditions shall we ever be able to take in the scope of God's thoughts as to the assembly as suggested in the city of my God, the New Jerusalem. I believe it is the most complete thought of the assembly. But only in the temple can we get an insight into that. The Lord speaks of making the overcomer a pillar in the temple of His God. I do not think any saint who does not value temple conditions will ever get a true impression of the city of Christ's God.

S.McC. I think that is right.

J.S.E. The adjective 'new' is introduced there. There has never been anything like it before.

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READING FIVE

Zechariah 12:6, 10 - 14; Zechariah 13; Zechariah 14:3, 4, 8 - 11, 16, 20, 21

G.R.C. We have been engaged in the past two days in this book, with what is objective; the passages we are dealing with now relate to what is subjective. They refer to the way Israel will be finally recovered to God, and they were brought in in remnant days of old because the way of recovery at any time must be on the same moral principles. What is more important now is that they were also recorded to indicate to us the moral road of recovery to God's thoughts. We have had his thoughts before us, but this is the moral road to recovery to them, all with a view to Jerusalem dwelling again "in her own place, in Jerusalem", chapter 12: 6; verse 10, "I will pour upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem the spirit of grace and of supplications", shows how the Spirit enters into this matter. The translator has not put a capital 'S', but we know that it involves the grace and activity of the Holy Spirit, and the result is there is power to look upon Christ, "They shall look on me whom they pierced". It seems to be an essential matter in the way of recovery to God's thoughts, that we should thus look upon Christ. "And they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for an only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn". I think, applied to Israel, it is the way they will come, in reality, to the truth of the passover, because the firstborn is mentioned here, "they shall be in bitterness for him as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn". They will feel intensely what has happened to Christ. And then, following that,

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in chapter 13, the fountain is opened, the great thought of purification is the next thing. Everything unclean is dealt with, especially what is religiously unclean, and natural ties are not allowed to hinder the cleansing. There is the taking home to our own souls of the meaning of the death of Christ upon Whom we have looked and it leads to this thorough acceptance of purification. Purification has been effected for us in the death of Christ, but it is to be practically worked out. And that sets us free to appreciate the service of Christ as in contrast to all religious pretension. While His being wounded in the house of His friends refers to the way Israel requited Him for His service, we would be led to take account of the way He has been wounded throughout the Christian dispensation. This, in its turn, leads to a deeper appreciation of His death. The wounding in the house of His friends was so vile an act that judgment alone could meet the position. And when judgment alone could meet the position, instead of the sword awaking against those who had wounded Him, it awoke against Him. He in grace took upon Himself the guilt of that most dreadful sin. These exercises lead on to the mount of Olives, that is, to spiritual conditions. The Lord will link up with the remnant, in a coming day, at the mount of Olives; and He links up with us as we recognise the presence and power of the Holy Spirit. The mount of Olives is only a sabbath day's journey from Jerusalem. Applying it today, if we are in the gain of the Holy Spirit's presence, the Lord will come to us, and then it is but a short and restful journey spiritually to the divine centre; and to the divine end, with which the book closes, "there shall be one Jehovah, and His name one", 14: 9. The last two verses set out the holy conditions secured in Jerusalem.

H.W. Would there be any correspondence with what the Lord has reached in Philadelphia? He

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presents Himself to that assembly, with the object of securing at the end features corresponding with Himself.

G.R.C. Quite so. He presents Himself as the holy and the true.

J.S.E. Are you implying that the piercing of Christ must not be viewed merely in an objective way, but as resting upon us responsibly? We have had our part in the treachery of the profession, and we come into the truth by way of a thorough judgment of that.

G.R.C. I think it is evidently a subjective matter, because it does not come about until there is the pouring out of the spirit of grace and supplication. It is no mere objective view, although what is objective enters into it; it is looking upon Christ in a way which deeply affects the soul. "They shall look on me". It is a question of His deity here, which is prominent throughout the book. I am not ignoring His manhood, but it is Jehovah speaking, and He says "they shall look on me whom they pierced", so that it implies a true appreciation of His Person. And then to think that He, such an One as He, was pierced!

G.M.S. John's gospel alone records the piercing of Christ. That same gospel asserts His Deity.

G.R.C. Exactly. In that connection it might be well to note that throughout this prophecy the deity of Christ is carefully guarded and insisted on, beginning with chapter 2, verses 8 and 9 "Thus saith Jehovah of hosts ... Behold, I will shake my hand upon them, and they shall become a spoil to those that serve them; and ye shall know that Jehovah of hosts hath sent me", verse 9. That is Jehovah of hosts speaking, and yet He says Jehovah of hosts sent Him. It is an allusion to the fact that while Jehovah of hosts sent the Lord Jesus, the Lord Jesus Himself is Jehovah of hosts. There are other instances in the book, but now we have this remarkable one. "They shall look on me", 12: 10 -- and then, "Awake, O sword, against

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my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow", chapter 13: 7. Earlier He has been called the Man whose name is the Branch, stressing His humanity, but now, "the man that is my fellow" stresses His deity. It is a great thing to have an appreciation of His Person, and John's gospel bears upon our scripture because He says, "When ye shall have lifted up the Son of man, then ye shall know that I am", John 8:29.

H.C. Is John entering into His feelings when He refers to it in Revelation 1:7, for after referring to their looking on Him whom they pierced, he says, "Yea, Amen".

G.R.C. Quite so "Every eye shall see Him" but now, as having the spirit of grace and supplication, we look upon Him, not simply as on the cross -- He is the One Who has been there -- but as having an intelligent appreciation of His Person. That is what affects us. We think of who He is, and yet that He is the one we pierced. Both Jew and Gentile were involved in the piercing. The Jews were primarily responsible, but the Gentiles actually performed the act. We were all involved in it; and it is the aspect of the death of Christ, according to John's gospel, in which all judgment centred.

A.H.G. Would this come into the expression of our feelings at the Supper?

G.R.C. I think it would produce in us the deep feelings that underlie response at the Supper. It is preparatory. We have been thinking of the inhabitants of Jerusalem, assembly persons, and they are mourning here; but they mourn every family apart, and their wives apart. All judgment centred in the lifting up of the Son of Man. Man's judgment was seen there, man's judgment of Christ; but then, in the very fact that man judged Him worthy of the cross and pierced Him, the world was judged. The world stood judged and condemned by such an act. And then, in overabounding grace, the occasion

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was taken advantage of by God to judge sin in its totality.

A.B. Would the reference to the spirit of grace and supplications relate to the inward working of the Spirit producing these fine feelings in regard of Christ.

G.R.C. It is the subjective side of the truth, and it shows there will be nothing truly subjective with us until we have learnt to look "on me whom they pierced".

E.J.B. Is there some parallel in Thomas in John 20? He says "My Lord and my God" to the One that was pierced.

G.R.C. Thomas is typical there of Israel; but, nevertheless, J.N.D. said that we all ought to say, as Thomas did, "My Lord and my God". While Thomas is typical of Israel, yet the scripture says "Thomas one of the twelve". He does not cease to be one of the twelve whose names are on the foundations of the heavenly city.

E.J.B. "Blessed they who have not seen and have believed" would be a suggestion that we have all to come to it.

S.McC. Would the fact that Judah and David are made so much of here show that in all these purifying and cleansing processes the service of God is particularly in mind?

G.R.C. You are thinking of the meaning of the name Judah and the fact that David took the lead in the service.

S.McC. Just so. Judah was God's sanctuary.

G.R.C. So that, in any true recovery, God becomes the centre of the heart, not our blessing. The mourning is for Him, the thoughts are all towards Him and towards God, how it affected Him, and how it affected God.

S.McC. Is it helpful to see that amid all the exposure linked with the public position and whatever may come in amongst those that are the subjects of

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recovering grace, there still is that which is especially marked out by God, as J.N.D. says of Judah "Guilty but beloved Judah". I have in mind what we have in Philadelphia, that feature of things that seems to be so choice.

G.R.C. And does this not show that the element of leadership comes into this matter in Judah, verse 5, "The leaders of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength through Jehovah of hosts their God". Judah considers for God and Judah set this matter on. And then in verse 7, "Jehovah shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem shall not be magnified over Judah". God appreciates leadership on subjective lines.

S.McC. J.N.D. sets out the great thought of "like a torch of fire in a sheath" verse 6, the remarkable character of his service in ministry entering into the basis of the recovery, do you not think?

G.R.C. "In that day I will make the leaders of Judah like a hearth of fire among wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheath". It is really God raising up, as you say, a vessel like J.N.D. He exposed everything that was not of God, and set it on fire, as it were. In his ministry it was burnt up and consumed. And this paved the way for the spirit of grace and supplication to be poured on the house of David, and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem. It paved the way for this subjective result in the saints.

S.McC. Just so. And for Jerusalem to dwell again in her own place.

Ques. Could you distinguish between the glory of the house of David, and that of the inhabitants of Jerusalem in this sense? Verse 7.

G.R.C. I can only say that there is the idea of graded glory, and here Judah is first. God appreciates a lead in the truth, especially a lead on subjective

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lines which affects the state of the saints and puts them right with Him.

J.A.C. How do you understand this mourning in the family setting, the wives and the families coming into the matter?

G.R.C. I think it would be the way the passover is taken up in a day of recovery. They "mourn for him, as one mourneth for an only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one is in bitterness for his firstborn". Christ has become so precious to us that He has become the firstborn in our affections, and we are in bitterness for Him. The mourning is taken up familywise and yet everyone apart.

W.S.S. Would this mourning bring us into communion with God? It speaks of his firstborn, and only Son, as if it would bring us to the appreciation of what Christ is to God?

G.R.C. Exactly. We are thinking of what it cost God to see His only Son, His firstborn, treated in this way. It would lay the basis for our considering for God as to all His thoughts.

W.S.S. And really the great development of the truth through the scripture is that we are brought into line with God in regard to all His thoughts in relation to Christ.

J.A.C. Have we a similar line in Judah? He speaks to Joseph as to the feelings of Joseph's father and when he concludes, "Joseph could not control himself before all them that stood by him", Genesis 45:1.

G.R.C. That is where Judah first took the lead. There is no proper leadership apart from that. It is a question of considering for God's feelings.

These exercises lead to an appreciation of the "fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness". A fountain is available for complete purification from every sin and uncleanness that has come into

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the christian profession. All can be dealt with. The way to deal with it is to get back to the truth that "ye have been washed", 1 Corinthians 6:11. That is, we get back to the truth that, in accepting Christ, and Christian baptism, we have put off the old man. Every form of uncleanness comes from the old man, whether religiously or otherwise, and this fountain means that we realise the truth as it is in Jesus; namely, our having put off the old man, and put on the new, which is created after God. It is not something we work up to, but we recognise the truth as it is before God, the truth as it is in Jesus. Then, having accepted the truth, we put it into practice and deal with every feature of sin and uncleanness which the allowance of the old man has brought in.

F.M. Is there a necessity for the fountain being used in the early part of the chapter, and then the fire is brought in chapter 13: 9 for refining?

G.R.C. Quite so. The fire is brought in for refining, so that the silver and the gold might come to light. That is God's side of the matter. Our side is to accept the fountain that is opened, that is, the truth of the death of Christ from the standpoint of the water which flowed from His side according to John. "Not by water only" it says in 1 John 5, "but by water and blood". The stress here is on the water, and the meaning of it is perhaps little apprehended by us. In God's sight we are purified from the man of sin and shame. We have put off the old man and put on the new. And the thing is to answer to that truth in our practical walk.

F.M. Coming therefore to the fire, there is the preservation of what is for God, the silver and the gold.

G.R.C. I believe if we accept the water, God will bring in the fire to help in the matter of purification. The fire goes inward, it refines the motives and deals with things that we would not have discerned, so that

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there might be nothing left but pure silver and pure gold.

J.A.P. In chapter 3, certain persons help Joshua to remove the filthy garments, but in Colossians we are told "to put off" and "put on". I would like to enquire when others serve us, and when we do things ourselves?

G.R.C. In chapter 3, it is a question of our being brought to apprehend our place of acceptance in Christ. But Colossians 3 and Ephesians 4 treat of the new man, and the exhortations are based upon our having put off the old man and put on the new. According to Ephesians 4:20 - 24, "ye have not thus learnt the Christ, if ye have heard him and been instructed in him according as the truth is in Jesus; namely your having put off according to the former conversation the old man which corrupts itself according to the deceitful lusts; and being renewed in the spirit of your mind; and your having put on the new man, which according to God is created in truthful righteousness and holiness". Now that is the truth as it is in Jesus. That is the truth as it is before God. The christian is regarded as having put off the old man, and having put on the new, and the water which flowed from the side of Christ is symbolic of that great purification. But we are to accept the truth, and then act according to it. And so in verse 25 it says, "Wherefore, having put off falsehood". Now we come to the practical side in keeping with the truth stated above. "Having put off falsehood, speak truth everyone with his neighbour"; and that is the point in Zechariah 13:3 where it is a question of the worst form of lying; false prophets speaking lies in the name of Jehovah. We are to put off falsehood, and especially that kind of falsehood which is the most abhorrent. We have had to deal with persons who speak things that are not the truth in the name of Jehovah. And it is part of this cleansing

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process to clear the land of this kind of thing. We have to deal with such persons even if they are natural relatives. "His father and mother that begat him shall thrust him through when he prophesieth".

A.B. These references to the wives mourning apart from every family apart, would give ability to rise above natural feelings and natural considerations.

G.R.C. That is why I think that chapter 12 comes before chapter 13. Unless there has been the looking "on me whom they pierced", and the mourning, the taking things home to ourselves before God from the standpoint of how it has all affected God, we shall not be ready to accept the truth of the fountain, the truth of having put off the old man and put on the new, nor to carry that out in practice. But if we are in the gain of chapter 12, we shall be ready for this.

J.S.E. Has the Lord been very patient in bringing the brethren to each of these matters one at a time? I was thinking of the way this fountain is presented, and then, what you have emphasised as to natural relations. It seems to be almost the last matter before we come to this great truth, "In that day shall there be one Jehovah and his name one", chapter 14: 9.

A.E.M. Does the service of God suffer by reason of our keeping up links with people we have withdrawn from, or people in the world?

G.R.C. Very much so.

A.E.M. It makes it very important to understand what you are saying. I believe there is a tremendous need for this to be understood.

A.H.G. Does verse 5, bring in a contrast?

G.R.C. It does indeed. It is Christ's own service. He did not profess to be a prophet at all. He said, "I am no prophet". He would not take any religious place, and that is the only safe ground for anyone of us.

The Lord says in Spirit, "I am no prophet", and it is the proper ground for each one of us to take up.

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We assume no religious place at all, We do not assume to be servants of the Lord as a class, or anything of that kind -- "I am no prophet, I am a tiller of the ground; for man acquired me as bondman from my youth". No one who approached the Lord, claiming His services, was ever refused. And so we are here just to be acquired; our services may be claimed by men, or by our brethren; we are here just to serve, but not as taking any religious place. But then, one serving in such a spirit does not appeal to the natural man. "One shall say unto him, What are those wounds in thy hands?" His service was not appreciated. It was like Paul with the Corinthians. Paul said they bore those who exalted themselves and beat them on the face, but when it was Paul, who was prepared to be the least, and prepared to spend and be spent, they did not want him. And so with the Lord, "What are those wounds in thy hands?" Think of the way Christendom has treated Him, the way He has been treated all through the dispensation -- wounded, all along the line. And then to think that the One Who was wounded in the house of His friends, when judgment must fall upon such wickedness, took the whole guilt upon Himself. Instead of the sword awaking against those who had wounded Him, the sword awoke "against my shepherd, even against the Man that is my fellow". How touching this is! And how it would prepare us to accept the refining process at the hand of God. We should welcome a process which would free us from anything which might lead us, in any way, to add to the wounds inflicted upon Him. The refining is in order that our motives might be kept pure, that there might be only silver and gold in evidence. And that would lead to the mount of Olives in verse 4 of the next chapter, "His feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives". He will resume relationships with the remnant at the mount of Olives. And He resumes

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relationships with us there in a spiritual sense. It is where these exercises have been passed through, so that the saints gather in spiritual elevation, relying only upon the Holy Spirit, that we prove His feet standing today. "Jesus came and stood in the midst". It is in Mount of Olive conditions, in a spiritual sense. Only, whereas in the case of the remnant in the day to come, His standing on the mount of Olives makes a way of escape from their enemies, in our day the way of escape is upward. He comes and stands in the midst in view of our moving upward with Him.

V.C.L. Do you think that the suggestion here is that if we really understand the Lord's Supper, and how we eat there, and the Spirit's sphere, we shall experience the Lord's presence in the midst?

G.R.C. I am sure that is right. And as we learn in Acts 1:12 it is only a sabbath-day's journey, a short restful journey, from the mount of Olives to Jerusalem. And that is what we prove as the Lord comes amongst us at the Supper; we find it is but a short, restful journey, as it were, to the very centre of the divine system. Thus we find ourselves at Jerusalem, whence the living waters are going out. We come to the city of the great king. "Jehovah shall be King over all the earth; in that day there shall be one Jehovah, and his name one".

S.McC. Is it not remarkable that we should have a reference to Uzziah in this particular section. What came to light in that man was divine holy resentment as to the exercise of priestly functions without priestly state. And that would bear on what is in mind as to the subjective side particularly as regards the service of God.

G.R.C. It would touch on the idea of "See to the concision". No intrusion of the flesh is to be allowed.

Ques. As to prophetic service he says, these are the wounds "with which I was wounded in the house of my friends". Would it suggest that true prophetic

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service would be in suffering?

G.R.C. It would. Zechariah himself would no doubt share in that suffering. And it is in this atmosphere that we partake of the Supper, as conscious of how the Lord has suffered, not only on the actual night of His betrayal, but in the continuation of it right through the dispensation, how He has been betrayed and wounded all along the line. But through mercy we have been restored to mount of Olives conditions where He comes and stands in the midst. And we find, as the Lord comes and stands in the midst, we are very near to Jerusalem. In restfulness we can move on to the divine centre.

Ques. Had the Lord that in mind in John 4, in His remarks to the woman. After speaking about the well He speaks about worship, not geographically, but in spirit and in truth?

G.R.C. Exactly, as opposite to all human ideas of worship. And now we have this wonderful passage, chapter 14: 9, "Jehovah shall be king over all the earth". We, of course, embrace heaven and earth -- the whole universe. And while this is millennial, we would look on to eternity. "Jehovah shall be king I over all the earth: in that day there shall be one Jehovah, and his name one". And in verse 10 it says, "Jerusalem shall be lifted up, and shall dwell in her own place", and in verse 11, "men shall dwell in it". What a wonderful thing this is as applied to the New Jerusalem! To think that, in a remnant day, a day of recovery, we can touch God's whole and eternal thoughts in the power of the Spirit. We arrive at Jerusalem lifted up and dwelling in her own place, that is, the assembly according to eternal purpose, and men dwelling in it. And there is the worship of God as the King. There is One Jehovah, and His name one. We have come to know that blessed God as declared, in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. The love and grace of the

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Father, the activities of the Son in bringing God's purposes to pass, the grace and workings of the Holy Spirit subjectively -- all express, and bring home to us, the great truth that God is love. We know God as thus manifested. We have been brought to know God Himself and to worship Him according to the truth that He is One. The honour and glory due to God as such, are due equally to the Father, and the Son and the Holy Spirit. God is One.

W.D. Is what we have been saying as to the revelation of God, part of the light that has come to us at eventide according to verse 7, "At eventide it shall be light"?

G.R.C. I think so. What light has come at the close of the dispensation! "At eventide it shall be light". Is that right Mr. M.?

A.E.M. I am enjoying it very much.

A.P.C.L. And we have that before us all the time. As flowing out of spiritual conditions of the mount of Olives this truth as to God would be with us all through the week.

G.R.C. It should govern us right through the week. We should have in view, in all our activities, the time of privilege, when we are privileged to reach finality in the power of the Spirit, as suggested in the feast of tabernacles. They come up to Jerusalem "from year to year to worship the King, Jehovah of hosts, and to celebrate the feast of tabernacles", chapter 14: 16.

A.P.C.L. So that at the end of verse 5 it is "all the holy ones with thee".

J.McK. Would the living waters going out from Jerusalem imply some power in testimony?

G.R.C. It is what we are looking for in the glad tidings this evening.

J.McK. I wondered whether there is not a kind of correspondence, the fountain in all its abundance and energy, known, experimentally amongst the saints,

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answered by the power of living water flowing out.

G.R.C. So the whole matter is characterised by the Spirit. There is the mount of Olives and then the living waters going out. And now just a word on the last two verses. "In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO JEHOVAH". We have thought of the horses, and the way God uses them, as indicated earlier in the book; but this looks on to the future, when all government will be manifestly on the principle, of holiness to Jehovah. It will be upon the bells of the horses. What a day to look on to!

J.S.E. The Priest will be on His throne then.

G.R.C. Quite so. But then, we would like it to be true now, so far as we are concerned. The horses can be applied to the way we order or govern our goings. Whether in home, or business, whatever our activities are, "holiness to Jehovah" should be on the bells of the horses. There should be a manifest testimony to holiness. Similarly, in seeking to carry out God's direct government in the assembly, it should be apparent to everybody what that is being done is holiness unto Jehovah.

W.S.S. Would the pots and bowls refer to the saints? They also are to be holiness to Jehovah.

G.R.C. Exactly. There are the pots in Jehovah's house like the bowls before the altar; but then every pot in Jerusalem and Judah is to be on the level of the holiness of the sanctuary. Our homes and businesses are to be on this level. "Every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto Jehovah of hosts; and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein. And in that day there shall be no more a Canaanite in the house of Jehovah of hosts". We should see to it that there is no more a Canaanite, the whole idea of commercialism, all idea of personal gain, as connected with divine things, should be gone from us.

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H.W. Mr. Taylor once made the remark that Satan is in the great commercial system; he is lodged there.

G.R.C. He is called the King of Tyre -- Ezekiel 28:12.

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THE WORK OF THE LORD AND THE SERVICE OF GOD (ADDRESS)

Haggai 2:1 - 9, 20 - 23; 1 Corinthians 3:9 - 11; 1 Corinthians 15:58; Hebrews 12:26 - 29; Malachi 1:11 - 14; 2: 1

I wish to say a word on work and service; that is to say, the work of the Lord and the priestly service of God. We are, each and all, called upon, and privileged to have part in both. As to work Paul says to the Corinthians "So then, my beloved brethren"; he does not leave anyone out. The whole company at Corinth, men and women, old and young are included. He says "my beloved brethren, be ye firm, immovable, abounding always in the work of the Lord, knowing that your toil is not in vain in the Lord". That word should come home to everyone of us. Men and women, old and young, gathered here today, how do you stand in regard to the work of the Lord? Are you firm and immovable in it? Are you abounding in it? Is it the chief work of your life? If not, you are not alongside Paul. I would like to be truly amongst Paul's beloved brethren. What a worker he was! How he abounded in the work of the Lord; the great example indeed for us all! And then, as to the service of God, the word in Malachi is, "ye priests, this commandment is for you". Everyone of us who has received the Holy Spirit is a priest. It makes no difference whether we are men or women, old or young. God is giving the Spirit to young people, boys and girls, and they are thus constituted priests, priests of God and of Christ. What could be a greater concern to anyone who loves God than the service of praise and worship to Him? You have received the Spirit, you are a priest. How do you stand as regards the service of God? Are you functioning in

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it? Mary and Elizabeth functioned in it in their own homes. What a testimony praising women are -- silent in the assembly as to thanksgiving, but vocal in the hymns and in the amens, and able to take up the service of song in their homes. So that we should all be in this matter, men and women, young and old. Ye priests, I address all here tonight, this commandment is for you, as to being vitally in the service of God.

I go back now to the question of work. It may be some of us are not very fond of work -- let us beware of being slack in the work of the Lord. This is the time for work. It is the time for toil. Toil means hard work. How little we know of it compared with Paul and others, through whose labours we owe so much. If Paul had not toiled as he did, where should we be today? How much we owe to him! Above all, how much we owe to Christ, and the unspeakable toil that He undertook! And so it is a question of being prepared for work, as Paul said, "Whereunto also I toil". What was he toiling about? Presenting every man perfect in Christ. That is the work of the Lord. You say, What does that mean? It means securing people through the gospel, and then seeing that they are fitted into their place in the assembly. No one is perfect in Christ who is a free-lance and on independent lines. Paul is speaking of himself as minister of the assembly. He filled up that which was behind of the sufferings of Christ for his body's sake, which is the assembly of which he became minister. And he says, "Whom we announce", that is Christ, "admonishing every man, and teaching every man, in all wisdom, to the end that we may present every man perfect in Christ". Paul did not cease his work when persons came to the Lord and knew the Lord Jesus as their Saviour; he went on labouring, toiling, to present every man perfect in Christ. "We, being many, are one body in Christ". If a man does not

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recognise that, how can he be perfect in Christ? We are "one body in Christ, and each one members of the other". Paul's example would surely stimulate us all to work with one another. Mr. Taylor said that we have to work with one another. We ourselves are the material for the house of God. The truth of the one body in Christ underlies the truth of the house of God and the material we have to work with is one another. Much of the work today is on mutual lines. Thank God He has given us some material. We would like to have more, but He has given us some. Let us get to work with one another, as it says, "in all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another". Paul speaks of teaching every man and admonishing every man in all wisdom. He was specially gifted to do it. But we can do it for one another. We can teach and admonish one another in all wisdom, helping one another to find our place in this corporate vessel and to fill out our function in it. This is a great work; it is the greatest constructive work that has ever proceeded on this earth. The work of building the tabernacle and of building the house that Solomon erected was great in its way, but those houses were only figures of the true. Now the true house is here and the saints are the material. And it is a question of getting to work, so that the features of the true house might come into expression for the pleasure and glory of God at the present time.

That was the position typically in Haggai. A remnant had returned from captivity in Babylon and had begun to build, but the enemies had got to work, and the king had issued an order that the work was to stop. Historically it would appear that the king's order was the reason the work stopped. But the prophet tells us the real reason. The work stopped because the people became half-hearted in it, and a half-hearted worker is of no use to God. They began to consider their own things. It is remarkable

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that in Philippians, the most exalted epistle as to Christian conduct, where Paul speaks much of the work and those engaged in it, he says "all seek their own things, not the things of Jesus Christ". What a statement to make! And that was the state of the returned captives within a few years of their return. Let me ask the brethren here, and my own heart, Have we got into that state? It is a terrible state for returned captives to get into -- brands plucked from the burning, brought back from captivity in the pure mercy of God and recovered to His own thoughts. How base to use their release from captivity just to devote themselves to their own matters! There is a great system around us, which claims catholicity, and which exacts so much from its devotees that nations under its sway become poor. God has, in mercy, released us from that fearful domination. Men, too, are led captive by their lusts. How much they spend on lusts and pleasures from which we have been delivered. From all these captivities we have been set free. What then are we doing with our time and our money? -- with that which would have been spent on wasteful lusts if we had not been set free? Are we spending it just for our own gratification on earthly things? You say, I am not spending it on anything that is wrong. No, perhaps not wrong in itself, but utterly wrong if what you are spending it on has become an object to your heart and has displaced God and His claims. Paul speaks in Philippians of those who were enemies of the cross of Christ, who minded earthly things. Delivered from worldly things, they gave themselves up to earthly things; and what is so astonishing is that these returned captives who should have had such a sense of mercy in their souls, with all the love for God which that engenders, should so quickly have slipped into occupation with earthly things. The king's decree to stop the building would never have stopped them if God had been

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supreme in their hearts. It was just a test of their state. And when the prophets aroused them, they did not wait for another decree from the king but began to build before the decree came. It was all a question of state. The prophet says in chapter 1, "Is it time for you that ye should dwell in your wainscoted houses, while this house lieth waste?". Think of returned captives living in wainscoted houses, adding luxury to their dwellings, as it were, while God's house was lying waste.

I want to raise the point with us all as to whether God is our first love. I would challenge my own heart as to that. Is God my first and supreme love, my all-commanding love? "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thine understanding, and with all thy strength", Mark 12:13. You say, 'If I give God that place in my life, how will it affect my other relationships?' They will not suffer. Give God His place, and every other relationship will fall into its right place. The perfect One said in spirit "I love my master, my wife and my children". It could not be put in any other order. Did the wife and children suffer because the Master came first? Not at all! Who has been by Christ loved like the wife and children? No the challenge is, dear brethren, as to whether God has the first place with us. And as returned captives, surely, in a special way, that should be His place in our affections. If He has the first place, no fear of man will stop us going forward. And I speak of this feelingly, as being a fearful person myself, that no fear of man will hinder us going forward in the work of the Lord if God has His right place in our affections. We shall fear God and not man. And that is the first thing these people are brought to. It says, in chapter 1: 12 "And the people feared before Jehovah". The first thing was they feared before Jehovah. They no longer feared the king and his edict, they feared

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before Jehovah -- reverential fear. And immediately Jehovah spoke to them again and said "I am with you saith Jehovah". How gracious God is. The moment we give Him His place in reverential fear He says, "I am with you". Before they began to build He said, "I am with you". And then the word comes, "Speak now to Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, governor of Judah ... But now be strong, Zerubbabel, saith Jehovah; and be strong, Joshua son of Jehozadak, the priest; and be strong, all ye people of the land, saith Jehovah, and work: for I am with you, saith Jehovah of hosts", verse 4. That is the thing I want to stress -- work. Be strong saith Jehovah and work. We may not like the word very much, but work -- that is what is needed. Not the taking up of the Lord's things as a hobby, but as a work. You say, Where am I to begin? Begin with your local brethren, work with them. Visit the sick, visit those who are waning in their affections, go after them. Keep company with those who are going on best and help them forward. Keep the pattern before you, the plan of the assembly. Paul was the wise architect. He had the pattern before him. Keep in mind what the objective is, that the saints should be set together as one body in Christ, all functioning in their place, all available according to Corinthians, as vessels of the Spirit for manifestations of the Spirit; all available according to Colossians as holding fast the Head; all available according to Ephesians to fill their place in the service and praise of God in the assembly.

Keep that in your mind and work to that end. Work in your local company, to achieve these features there. There is plenty of work to do. I would encourage the young people to work. While you have your youth and energy, work. The Lord has plenty for you to do. Find out what there is to do and do it. Visiting is a thing which can be taken up in youthful energy, and those who do it will receive great profit in their souls.

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They will minister comfort to the aged and the sick, but the aged ones will minister even more to them.

There is work to be done. Let us be always abounding in the work of the Lord knowing that our labour is not in vain in the Lord. Everything else is in vain. God says, "Yet once, it is a little while, and I will shake the heavens, and the earth, and the sea, and the dry land". You may be labouring for other things, but be assured that everything except God's building is coming down. You may be aiming at becoming a captain of industry, a prince of commerce or something of that kind. Let me turn your attention in other directions. You may build up a big business here but it will come down. God is going to shake everything. I am referring to the danger of making these things an objective. That is where the damage is done, in minding earthy things, making them your objective. You may be house-proud, business-proud, clothes-proud, and so on. The sin comes in in making these things an object. God may be pleased to give you a house. Why does He give it to you? For the testimony. Houses are needed in the testimony. In the early days the assembly often met in houses; and how much goes on in houses today! God needs houses and He will provide us with the houses He needs if we are simple with Him. But do not make your house your object. Let God be your object and His house. The moment I make earthly things an object, I am on the path of sin. You say, Why do you speak of sin; the things are not wrong. Well, just look at the later part of Haggai's prophecy as to what is clean and unclean. You say, Surely it is not unclean to go in for earthly things? It is unclean, dear brethren, to make them an object, to mind them, in the sense that Paul means when he says, "Who mind earthly things". If you read Leviticus 11 you will find that crawling things are the most unclean of creatures; things that crawl on the earth are an

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abomination to God. Abomination indeed when the church was in pristine beauty, but how much more among returned captives. To think that such should use the liberty of their release from Babylon to give themselves up to earthly things. What uncleanness! And the serious thing is, if I am unclean in this way, I contaminate others. That is the meaning of the latter part of this chapter. If an unclean person touches another they become unclean. The thing spreads. Dear brethren, there is a danger of this kind of thing spreading amongst us, the minding of earthly things. God may entrust you with things; He entrusts some men with riches. Joseph of Arimathaea was a rich man, a rich man was needed at that time; in the course of the testimony rich men are needed, and, if God entrusts a man with riches, all well and good. But let him not make his riches an object. Let God be his object always, and let him understand that what he has been entrusted with in material means is for the testimony. If God gives me a house it is in view of the testimony. If God gives me means it is in view of the testimony. It is to be used in the work of the Lord, not to hinder me in the work of the Lord, not to divert me. So Haggai's is a wholesome word to us, as to what we, as returned captives, are occupied with, as to whether we are clean in this respect. You say, I have come out of Babylon, I have left all the religious systems, I have left the trade unions, I am clean. But if earthly things are your object you are not clean. And you are carrying about with you a contamination which is most insidious, and which can corrupt the brethren. We need persons who are heavenly minded, who are prepared to give themselves up to this great matter of the rebuilding of the house in order that there should be, in every locality, the true features of the assembly in expression. Such were badly needed at Corinth. Paul has laid the foundation, but they were each to see how they built

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upon it and were exhorted to be "firm, immovable, abounding always in the work of the Lord", and to "be vigilant; stand fast in the faith; quit ye like men; be strong". So it says here in Haggai, "Be strong and work", and then, "the word that I covenanted with you when ye came out of Egypt, and my Spirit, remain among you: fear ye not". If we know what the divine plan is, and if our hearts are right with God, giving Him the all-commanding place in our affections, and if we are set for the furtherance of what is pleasurable to Him in His house, we have nothing to fear. And I would say as to that, that if we are convinced as to what God is doing and what will stand, it will save us from being apologetic about our Christianity. We have nothing to apologise for. We stand before the Lord of all the earth. We are concerned about His rights. We are working on a building which will stand when everything that man has built has come down. We have nothing to be ashamed of. We can afford to be bold in the gospel, bold in speaking of Christ. "Proclaim the word; be urgent in season and out of season". Let us give up an apologetic attitude. Let us speak to people boldly of Christ as those who know where they stand and what they are doing, and that what they are engaged in is going to abide when everything else is shaken and comes down. Let us tell people that they should be in this matter, too. A bold front is needed, dear brethren, because more material is needed for the house. An apologetic attitude will not help to deliver our brethren from the systems around. A bold attitude will help them. I do not mean any fleshly boldness or aggressiveness, but spiritual boldness. "Quit yourselves like men; be strong. Let all things ye do be done in love".

The prophet closes with another word as to the shaking. The shaking of chapter 2: 6 is in view of encouraging us to go on with the building, and I believe

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God is shaking at the present time as it says there, "I will shake all nations". Both the Eastern and Western camps of the world are feeling weak, they are shaking at the present time, and that is all to the good. There is more hope of reaching men through the gospel, and of delivering our brethren from the systems. When the world appears strong, we are all liable to be caught up in it, and to devote ourselves to our own wainscoted houses, because things down here appear more secure; but when God shakes the nations it is for our good, to release us, and to release others, for His house. That is the view of the first shaking here, and the result of it is that the latter glory is greater than the former. Outwardly the recovery will never be like Pentecost, or Ephesus, when the saints were publicly one. And yet there is a glory about it which is all its own. Features appear which are not mentioned originally and which could only come to light in a day of recovery. So that we are moving on as it were, to the latter glory. Publicly the latter glory will be when the heavenly city comes down, and that will indeed be greater than the former; greater than anything. But the light of that is shining upon us, so that there might be a moral glory about the present moment that is unsurpassed. But then the shaking referred to in chapter 2: 21 is final and will result in the overthrow of all the kingdoms so that God might put the impress of Christ upon everything. Zerubbabel is a type of Christ as God's signet, and God is going to put the impress of Christ on every throne, and lordship and principality and authority. But that is to be known now in the assembly, Christ in everything, and in all. That is the objective in this prophecy -- that what will soon be universally true, the impress of Christ on everything, might be true among the saints at the present time; Christ, and Christ alone, in evidence.

Now I pass on to the second part of my subject, the priestly service of God. In that connection Paul

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quotes Haggai in Hebrews 12:26. He brings in the shaking to show how it is intended to help us relative to the priestly service of God. It is to help us in the work of the Lord, but it is also to help and stimulate us in the priestly service of God. And how does it stimulate us in priestly service? Because the more things shake here, the more joyful and thankful to God we are that we have received a kingdom that cannot be shaken. That is the point in Hebrews. "Let us, receiving a kingdom not to be shaken, have grace, by which let us serve God acceptably". What is already shaking is soon going in order that what is not shaken may remain. The only things that are going to remain are the things we are privileged to be engaged in. All that the great Gentile monarchies have built up, their institutions, their culture, and so on, all is shaking now and all is going to be removed. There will not be a trace left of what Caesar did, but what Paul did will shine in glory for ever. And we, "receiving a kingdom not to be shaken"! What a joyful people we should be in the sense of this! And what is the kingdom we have received? We "have come to mount Zion; and to the city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem; and to myriads of angels, the universal gathering; and to the assembly of the first-born who are registered in heaven; and to God, judge of all; and to the spirits of just men made perfect; and to Jesus, mediator of a new covenant; and to the blood of sprinkling, speaking better than Abel". That is the kingdom not to be shaken and we have come to these things. But you say, 'How have we come to them? We are just a feeble company building in our localities'. Yes, but the more we build, the more faithful we are on Corinthian lines in building something here, in a concrete way, in our localities, the more free the Spirit will be to lead us into the truth of Ephesians, where, in the Spirit's power, we apprehend what is ever present to God. What is before

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His mind and heart in purpose, and is ever present to Him, becomes present to us. But if we are not prepared to build on Corinthian lines and secure conditions for God locally, the Spirit will not be free to transport us into the realm of purpose. If we are true builders we shall, by the Spirit, be continually and increasingly transported into that kingdom which cannot be shaken, especially at the time of privilege, and we shall realise, as a great practical reality, that we have come to these things. What is present to God, to His mind and affections, becomes present to us. Think of what we have come to, what we shall have all through eternity, and, in the light of it all, let us "have grace by which let us serve God acceptably" -- that word is priestly service -- let us have grace to go on with the priestly service. We are going on with the work of the Lord, but, concurrently with it, we are going on with the priestly service of God. "Let us ... have grace, by which let us serve God acceptably with reverence and fear. For also our God is a consuming fire".

I read in Malachi because he was the last prophet and his word is for the priests relative to the service of God. The house had been finished. The word to Malachi does not relate to the work of the Lord, but to the service of God. "And now, ye priests, this commandment is for you". I suppose most of us here are priests -- this commandment is for us. "If ye do not lay it to heart, to give glory unto my name, saith Jehovah of hosts, I will even send the curse among you", chapter 2: 2. God is not sending a curse today, but we shall suffer leanness of soul if we do not take it to heart to give glory to His name. What a joy it is to give glory to God's name! Surely there is no higher level of priestly service than to give glory to God's name. Let us serve God acceptably, with reverence and fear. We know His name, we know the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit; and we bring

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into that glorious name the glories attaching to every previous name by which God has disclosed Himself. What a wealth of disclosure, culminating in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit! Surely our hearts are roused as we think of the glory of that Name, and of our privilege to give glory to it. So the word here is "from the rising of the sun even unto the setting;" it refers to local companies in every place. It is remarkable that the Old Testament could look forward to the present day -- "in every place" -- not now Jerusalem as an earthly centre. "From the rising of the sun even unto its setting my name shall be great among the nations". That refers to the name to which the nations were to be baptised. "My name shall be great among the nations; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure oblation". The altar of incense and the altar of burnt-offering are both functioning. "For my name shall be great among the nations saith Jehovah of hosts".

Well now, how can we serve God acceptably? It tells us here how we can serve Him unacceptably. "Ye bring that which was torn, and the lame, and the sick; thus ye bring the oblation: should I accept this of your hand?" This raises the same question that I have already raised as to the work of the Lord. Has God the first and supreme place? He is prepared to accept no other. How could God accept anything less than the first place with anyone? You bring something torn and lame. "Cursed be the deceiver", it says "who hath in his flock a male, and voweth and sacrificeth unto the Lord a corrupt thing". You have reserved the male for yourself. The best of your energies have been reserved for your own things instead of being devoted to God. God feels it. He will not have it. It is not acceptable. "Let us ... have grace, by which let us serve God acceptably". How can we serve God acceptably? By bringing all

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we have without reserve to Him. That is the way to serve God acceptably. "For I am a great King, saith Jehovah of hosts, and my name is terrible among the nations". He is a great King and He cannot accept anything but the best. The whole of our energies, the whole of our lives, must be dedicated to Him. What we do in our ordinary work and ways must all be subsidiary to His work and His service; held as incidental to it, to support it.

May the Lord help us in this, that we may have grace whereby we may serve God acceptably. Let us have no doubt as to what acceptable service is. We sing sometimes

"Entire and full devotion
Alone can worthy be". (Hymn 179)

Nothing less can meet the position, dear brethren. May the Lord help us for His Name's sake!