Daniel 1; Daniel 2:1, 2, 10 - 23

G.R.C. My impression is that God would help us at this time as to the period called "the times of the nations", an expression used by the Lord Himself in Luke 21; and that He would give us to understand why He has ordered these times, especially in the light of Paul's remark in Romans 11, where he says that "blindness in part has happened to Israel, until the fulness of the nations be come in". It is an expression which, read in conjunction with Paul's ministry generally -- the fact that he was the apostle of the nations and a prisoner of Christ Jesus for the nations -- would indicate that the times of the nations were instituted in a primary sense with this dispensation in view. We know that the Old Testament prophets had not light as to this dispensation, yet it was in the mind of the Spirit of God; indeed, it was in the mind and purpose of God from before time. So that while the times of the nations have a great bearing on Israelitish hopes and God's dealings with Israel, they undoubtedly have a special bearing upon this dispensation, when the fulness of the nations in its most excellent sense is being brought in.

It is important, therefore, that we should be intelligent as to what God has set up in the way of Gentile rule and the character of it, and be kept in remembrance of the fact that it is His will that His saints should bear testimony before rulers. That has been a feature from the beginning of the times of the Gentiles right on. Paul was to bear Christ's name before nations and kings and the sons of Israel. These are the things generally in mind in our enquiry.

In the scriptures read, certain persons are brought before us, and especially Daniel, who provide examples

of the character required in those who are to carry through the testimony God has in mind; and there is a peculiar link between these persons and those who seek to be faithful in our day. It says in verse 2 that part of the vessels of the house of God had been carried into the land of Shinar to the house of Nebuchadnezzar's god. In our day the vessels are persons. Captivity came in early in church history, so that the injunction in 2 Timothy 2 was necessary before Paul left the scene and he speaks of vessels. The god of this world has acquired part of the vessels of the house of God. He uses them in his system, but 2 Timothy 2 refers to vessels which are sanctified and serviceable to the Master and profitable for every good work. The whole truth as to the house of God is cherished by such. In 2 Timothy days the house of God testimonially is submerged, but we rejoice in the fact that, vitally, it remains; the habitation of God in the Spirit subsists on the earth at the present moment. It cannot be otherwise, because the Spirit of God is here. It is submerged from a testimonial standpoint but it subsists in all its living reality, and those who would be faithful today hold to the truth of it and are concerned to function relative to it -- to take up every kind of service connected with it. Now that would be in mind, in the principle of it, in the stand taken by Daniel and his friends. They would not render themselves unclean, because no unclean person could function relative to the house of God; they were concerned, therefore, to maintain "the law of the house". This is given in some detail in Leviticus -- see chapters 7: 37, 38; 11: 46, 47; 12: 7; 13: 59; 14: 32, 54 - 57; 15: 32, 33. Much of it relates to what is unclean and clean; and chapter 11 treats of food in this connection. If they had not made a stand as to this they would have been disqualified. So it is of the utmost importance that we should make a stand, and in doing so we may

have to approach those in authority and make our requests known, because we cannot compromise. The fact that Daniel purposed in his heart shows that he was determined not to compromise whatever happened. But he made his request known. So the idea of an approach to an authority immediately comes in in the book.

A.J.G. Have you in mind that the maintenance of the service of God is the great objective to be before us, but in the course of maintaining that it may work out that approach has to be made to authorities, and God uses that for testimony?

G.R.C. That is what I had in mind. Exodus, Chronicles, and all that is connected with the house of God, precede this; and though in Daniel's day the house of God was physically destroyed, in our day the habitation of God in the Spirit subsists, and we are to hold the abstract view of it and then work out in practice the service connected with it in integrity and completeness with those available. But then, in order to do so, we must observe the law of the house and a fundamental law relates to making "a difference between the unclean and the clean", Leviticus 11:46, 47.

A.J.G. It is interesting, is it not, that we get the law of the house brought in again in Ezekiel 43, who was contemporary with Daniel, stressing that it is "Most holy".

G.R.C. "Upon the top of the mountain all its border round about is most holy", Ezekiel 43:12. Do you not think that the allusion to the evening oblation in chapter 9, and also the implied allusion to the sabbath, show that in the heart of a man like Daniel the whole truth was being held. That would be why this course of conduct because the only one he could pursue.

H.F.R. I was thinking of the responsibility which lies upon the saints as vessels in this day of captivity.

If the assembly is the fulness of the nations in its highest sense, it is to afford vessels which are able to maintain what is pleasing to God in every circumstance.

G.R.C. That is just what I had in mind. So that while, physically, Daniel and his friends were in captivity, they were acting in such a manner as to be morally free from it, in order that they might be, in New Testament language, vessels "to honour, sanctified, serviceable to the Master, prepared for every good work". "Every good work" would include the most important, that is, the service Godward in His house, and it also includes testimony to men and testimony before kings.

W.H. Had you any thought as to why the food supply should be the specific test?

G.R.C. I think it is a fundamental matter. According to Leviticus 11 it would affect every moment of our lives.

A.E.M. Is it not interesting that the course of Babylonish wisdom was three years, but the course of proving the work of God was ten days?

G.R.C. Very good. What is your thought as to the ten days?

A.E.M. It is the time of responsibility, and God acts quickly in regard to His work.

G.R.C. That is very good. Does it not indicate that if we have purposed not to pollute ourselves and yet behave in a comely way towards those above us, we become the depositories of divine wisdom? Daniel says, "he giveth wisdom to the wise", chapter 2: 21, that is, if any man is wise, he has received it as a gift, "and knowledge to them that know understanding". Is it not true that, if we are morally right, God can very rapidly supply divine wisdom?

A.E.M. I think so.

Ques. Do we get divine instruction in Mark

13: 9 - 12, as to how we are to proceed if we are called before authorities?

G.R.C. Verse 11 would specially bear on it, "be not careful beforehand as to what ye shall say -- nor prepare your discourse -- but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak; for ye are not the speakers, but the Holy Spirit". There it refers to what is given to us, "given you in that hour".

A.G. Would the kind of food and drink which Daniel asks for be calculated to make full way for Christ and the Spirit in our souls?

G.R.C. The pulse and water was simple clean food for the daily needs of this life. Such food would preserve us in qualification to feed on holy and most holy food. No unclean person, for instance, was allowed to eat the peace offering. There were other foods which only a priest could eat, but every clean person could eat the peace offering; and without eating the peace offering we are not practically in fellowship at all. It shows the importance of keeping ourselves on simple, clean diet in matters of everyday life.

W.J. The next reference to the gold and silver vessels in Daniel is in chapter 5: 2. Does it indicate what he thought of the saints, the standard of the house?

G.R.C. Quite so. How precious the vessels were! But Belshazzar was using them for impious, unholy purposes.

A.B. Would Daniel purposing in his heart not to pollute himself with the king's meat, be somewhat in the nature of a vow? Does it involve an understanding with God first, before any move is made?

G.R.C. I would think the purposing in heart is the fundamental matter. We cannot compromise anything in relation to the law of our God. But then, with that matter settled he behaves himself commendably; he requested of the prince of the eunuchs

that he might not have to pollute himself. "And God granted Daniel favour and mercy before the prince of the eunuchs".

W.C. Is this God's answer to Hezekiah's unfaithfulness when he showed his treasures to the messengers of the king of Babylon and Isaiah pronounced the governmental results upon him and said that his sons should be chamberlains with the king of Babylon? I was thinking of the faithful way in which they refused what was unclean as over against the way their ancestor had dropped down to the level of the messengers in entertaining them.

G.R.C. Quite so. These young men accepted the position governmentally. It had been prophesied to Hezekiah that the royal seed should be eunuchs in the house of the king of Babylon; and here they were. So we have to accept the great restrictions of our day, and yet how precious to God that there should be those who will not compromise anything in regard to the law of their God! It is said of Daniel later that his enemies knew that the only way that they could find fault with him was in matters concerning the law of his God. They knew that he would not compromise.

R.H.S. Have we something to learn from what God granted to Daniel and then what God gave? He granted favour and mercy before the prince of the eunuchs, but in verse 17, "God gave them knowledge and skill in all learning and wisdom".

G.R.C. I think the two things go together. That is, if we are prepared uncompromisingly to keep the law of our God and make our requests known, whatever the cost may be, then we are in a state to receive from God. Do we not have to bear in mind in that connection Daniel's worship in chapter 2? He says, "Blessed be the name of God for ever and ever; For wisdom and might are his", verse 20. Is that not a great thing fundamentally for us to accept that

wisdom and might belong to God alone? There is the wisdom from beneath, but that is not wisdom in the mind of God. The wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. All true wisdom and all might are God's. They are only in God Himself and with those to whom He is pleased to give them; and so Daniel says, "Wisdom and might are his", and then in verse 21, "He giveth wisdom to the wise". So that if there are any on earth at any time who are wise according to God, it is because the only wise God has given them wisdom. Therefore everything depends on our state, whether we are in a condition to receive, to be the depositories of the wisdom of God.

J.McK. Were you thinking that the condition amongst Daniel and his friends paves the way for God's movement in chapter 2 in giving this dream to Nebuchadnezzar, which in turn throws into relief the great flow of praise from Daniel to God?

G.R.C. Very good. What purpose would there have been in God giving the dream to Nebuchadnezzar if there had been no person suited to be the depository of divine wisdom and to interpret the dream?

J.McK. Would that have a parallel in the way the saints should be able to understand the times in our day?

G.R.C. I think so. It is a remarkable thing that the dream should have been given to Nebuchadnezzar and not to Daniel. The fact that it was given to Nebuchadnezzar means that those who exercise authority throughout the times of the nations are in a place of peculiar responsibility before God, not only because He has entrusted them with the authority, but also because at the outset He gave the first ruler this vision and its interpretation. So that, when those who have wielded authority have to answer to God in the day of judgment, they will have no excuse. Why did they not take account of

Nebuchadnezzar's vision and its interpretation? Gentile rule has been placed under the responsibility of having received this vision, and it is recorded in Scripture with its interpretation. But, then, God needed a vessel, and He had serviceable vessels in these four young men; those who not only, in their spirits, served Him in praise and worship in relation to His house but who were also available to Him in testimony before the king.

J.McK. It seems very blessed that the praise of God from this remnant has a kind of testimonial basis. Do we not need helping in that? I was thinking how the kingdom of Babylon had been thrown into confusion, and it is the solution which Daniel brings in that becomes the salvation of the situation.

Rem. In regard to the question of testimony, before any oral testimony is rendered the countenances of the young men are strikingly referred to relative to the period of the ten days.

Ques. Is not our appearance important? God takes account of it early in the history of the race, saying to Cain, "will not thy countenance look up with confidence?"

G.R.C. That is most important. The whole appearance and deportment of these youths was a testimony to God and His greatness.

-.D. In Timothy piety is stressed. Paul says, "But thou, O man of God, flee these things, and pursue righteousness, piety, faith, love", etc., and then he refers to the good confession that Timothy confessed, and also to Christ Jesus who witnessed before Pontius Pilate the good confession; 1 Timothy 6:11 - 13. Would piety be essential if we are to enter into the conflict? I was thinking of the food upon which these young men fed.

G.R.C. We have referred to 2 Timothy; but 1 Timothy also bears very much on our subject.

In chapter 2 we are exhorted to make supplications, prayers, intercessions and thanksgivings, not only for all men, but for kings and all in dignity. Without an understanding of the times of the nations I am certain we shall never know how to supplicate nor to intercede nor even to give thanks intelligently. Our prayers will be just a formality. Then, later, the matter of confession is introduced, and the remarkable thing is that, when Paul refers to the good confession, it is that which Christ Jesus made before Pontius Pilate. Christ Jesus had also made confession before the chief priests and the Sanhedrim, and, of course, that was perfect also; but the apostle draws attention to the fact that before Pontius Pilate, that is, before the Gentile ruler, He witnessed the good confession; and that is what is in mind throughout the times of the nations. It is God's mind that testimony should be rendered to Gentile rulers. They receive authority from God and they are responsible to God, and God would bring His representatives before them to affect their consciences in relation to the One who has given them authority and who is going to judge them for the way they have used it.

W.H. Was not the confession before Pontius Pilate in relation to the rights of God and the rights of Christ? "I have been born for this", He said; John 18:37.

A.J.G. The confession of the Lord before Pontius Pilate was to the truth, "that I might bear witness to the truth". Is that not really the subject of testimony to the world -- the truth?

G.R.C. Could you say what you understand by the truth?

A.J.G. The truth as to God and the truth as to man in relation to God.

S.H. Does chapter 2, verse 11, bear on what you are saying -- the house of God? The Chaldeans remark that the gods do not dwell with flesh, but

then, you have Daniel and his three companions praying -- the house of prayer. Then there is the revelation and, in result, God is praised in the sanctuary. Finally, there is testimony to the king that God is there dwelling with men. God in His supremacy is God of the heavens, yet God is with men.

G.R.C. That is very instructive. The Lord says, "My house shall be called a house of prayer for all the nations", Mark 11:17. These men are found together in prayer concerning this secret. They would be concerned not only about their own safety -- it mentions that -- but they would be feeling also for men and for the king; the wise men of Babylon were all going to perish, and the king was in anxiety as to the meaning of his dream. What a prayer meeting it must have been! Then in answer to the prayer the secret was revealed unto Daniel in a night vision; and, as you say, there was praise: "Blessed be the name of God for ever and ever" -- a phrase similar to that used in 1 Chronicles 16:36, at the height of David's power -- and then follows this remarkable ascription, "wisdom and might are his".

C.N. What lies behind the effective service in chapter 2 is personal purity in chapter 1. Is not personal purity stressed much in 1 Timothy 1?

G.R.C. It is; and it bears on our associations. Partaking of the king's delicate food is a moral idea; it would involve, in their case, the actual physical eating of food, but even so it would involve associations also. Undoubtedly, in eating the king's delicate food, they would be mixing with persons who were unsuitable; whereas no one would seek their company when they were eating pulse and water. They would thus be free from unclean associations. According to Leviticus 11, eating implies associations. There were unclean beasts, birds, fishes and crawling things; they all represent persons, and if we associate with persons who are unclean we appropriate them,

and thus we feed on what is unclean. So that the matter of clean food really involves separation according to 2 Timothy 2:21: "If therefore one shall have purified himself from these, in separating himself from them".

R.G.B. These four persons are seen constantly together in the first section and are called "Daniel and his companions". Does that bear upon the fellowship and the maintenance of it, the importance of right companionships and links?

G.R.C. It agrees with the word in 2 Timothy 2:22, "pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace with those that call upon the Lord out of a pure heart".

J.W. Does the king's delicate food refer to the more refined features of the world, the educated system and so on, to which we are so prone to fall?

G.R.C. Undoubtedly. Believers may separate from what men regard as socially unclean and yet go on with what is even more unclean in God's sight, although refined in men's estimation.

A.P.B. Why is the king's matter spoken of as "the secret"? Is there anything to learn from that today?

G.R.C. There is much to learn. It is a great thing that we should be in a state to have secrets revealed to us; and the greatest secret in our times is the secret of the mystery hidden throughout the ages in God. If there is separation, persons get light as to Paul's ministry. Without separation they never get such light; that is, they never understand the greatest secret that has ever been disclosed. God has disclosed His greatest secret during the times of the nations, having revealed it to His holy apostles and prophets in the power of the Spirit, and having given Paul special intelligence in it. Apart from separation we shall never come into divine secrets; we shall be debarred from understanding Paul's ministry, which

is connected with the fulness of the nations coming in, and also from understanding the secret of God's ways in government as revealed to Daniel. Believers who are not in a separate path are ignorant of both.

F.S. Would the word in Amos 3:7 encourage us? It says, "But the Lord Jehovah will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets".

G.R.C. I think so. According to Ephesians 3 Paul had special intelligence in the mystery of the Christ, but the fundamental features of it were revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the power of the Spirit. God would not withhold this secret from His prophets, but neither would He withhold the secret of His ways in government. Daniel, in ascribing wisdom and might to God, is unquestionably thinking of His wisdom and might in government; but we, in our day, are brought into both of the divine secrets to which I have referred, and Paul's doxologies in Romans 11 and 16 bear on this. In chapter 11, after recounting God's ways, he says, "O depths of riches, both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments and untraceable his ways! For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counsellor? ... For of him, and through him, and for him are all things: to him be glory for ever. Amen". There he is ascribing wisdom and knowledge to God in connection with His ways which, in their details, are past finding out and yet, in their principles, have been made known. Then in the last chapter Paul worships God as the only wise God in relation to the revelation of the mystery.

A.P.B. The end of this vision shows that the stone cut out without hands is to fill everything. Would that correspond with everything being headed up in Christ?

G.R.C. It will result in that. That is one of God's secrets -- the mystery of His will.

A.W.P. Is it not a basic matter that persons must have confidence in God and God have confidence in them before He will let them into His secrets?

G.R.C. Yes. God commits His secrets to persons He can trust, and the Lord tells us the kind of people He will trust. A friend is one to whom all secrets can be told; Jesus said, "Ye are my friends if ye practise whatever I command you", John 15:14. If a person is prepared to do whatever he is commanded without any question, the Lord can trust that man. Daniel was such an one. The law of his God governed him. He was not prepared to compromise, he would do whatever God had commanded. God never trusts a man who trusts himself, but He trusts a man who judges himself and is prepared to do whatever he is commanded.

H.F.R. The gift of the Spirit is on that basis, is it not? He gives the Spirit to those who obey Him.

G.R.C. That is it. So that the path is very simple, though impossible for the flesh. Our path is one of unquestioning obedience to God in every detail of the law of His house.

Ques. Is that seen in Abraham, who was called the "Friend of God", James 2:2?

G.R.C. It is, indeed. God says, "For I know him that he will command his children and his household after him", Genesis 19.

A.C.S.P. In that connection would you say why this remarkable light and opportunity for testimony is given to such young men?

G.R.C. Because I believe it is especially the privilege of young men to carry forward the public testimony. What do you say?

A.C.S.P. That is helpful. Would it not make a peculiar appeal to the young men that there should be nothing, either in appearance or ways, that would

disqualify them from having a part in things so great?

G.R.C. I am not sure whether young people realize the immense privileges open to them, because God, in a special way, relies on young men to carry the testimony forward. The world's eyes are upon young men and what they do compels attention; and when young men are seen acting courageously for God it is a remarkable testimony.

E.C.M. Does suffering enter into this kind of testimony? You referred to Paul, "I will show to him how much he must suffer for my name".

G.R.C. It does involve suffering, and what a privilege that is! When conflict is on, the world relies on young men, it is young men who are sent to the front.

A.L.O. It is solemn, is it not, that according to John 2:24 there were those to whom Jesus did not trust Himself?

G.R.C. They were not subject to Him. They were affected by His miracles but there was not full and whole-hearted obedience.

E.C.M. In referring to suffering, I was wondering whether it would bring true manhood into evidence.

G.R.C. We all shrink from suffering, but if we could only realise the privilege of it! "If ye are reproached in the name of Christ, blessed are ye, for the Spirit of glory and the Spirit of God rests upon you", 1 Peter 4:14; and the Lord says, "Blessed are ye when they may reproach and persecute you, and say every wicked thing against you, lying, for my sake. Rejoice and exult, for your reward is great in the heavens", Matthew 11. That is what God would put before young men and women.

G.H.S.P. Does the reference to the young man in white in the sepulchre, in Mark, bear on this, suggesting youthfulness and purity in view of the service?

G.R.C. Exactly. At the time of the Lord's apprehension there was a young man with a linen

cloth cast about his naked body, but he fled and left the linen cloth behind; he was not equal to the position. But in the resurrection scene there was a young man on the right, clothed in a white robe.

R.G.B. In Numbers 1 they were numbered from twenty years old and upwards for military service and they were to declare their pedigree. Would that bear on the question of young persons showing that they are real and true in relation to the testimony?

G.R.C. Very good. We have been taught that it is in acting on 2 Timothy 2:19 - 22 that we declare our pedigree. We also secure for ourselves a white robe.

W.J. Daniel addresses God as the "God of my fathers". Had he gathered up things?

G.R.C. He had. He says, "Blessed be the name of God for ever and ever", and then at the end, "I thank thee, and I praise thee, O God of my fathers". We would not forget the fathers, those who have gone before. We do not forget Paul and Peter and the long line of suffering saints, the martyrs. What an honour to be brought into that great testimonial line! But then we would go back further; we would address our praise to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. We go back to Christ Himself, the faithful and true Witness!

THE TIMES OF THE NATIONS (2)

Daniel 2:24 - 49

G.R.C. We are considering "the times of the nations" and this afternoon we have read about the vision given to Nebuchadnezzar and its interpretation. It brings out what Gentile rule is as ordained of God, and the various characters which mark it in God's ways. In a later vision given to Daniel himself, chapter 7, the same four empires depicted in this vision are seen as wild beasts, having various features as beasts, and seen arising out of the sea, and also spoken of as arising out of the earth. They are referred to there according to their natural characteristics; and their propensities are dreadful, especially when energised by Satan. But the viewpoint here is in keeping with Romans 13:1, 2 -- that "there is no authority except from God; and those that exist are set up by God. So that he that sets himself in opposition to the authority resists the ordinance of God; and they who thus resist shall bring sentence of guilt on themselves". We have, therefore, to regard this vision from that standpoint. The head of the image of fine gold, the gold representing what is of God, brings out the great principle that there is no authority except from God. That is a remarkable statement, but there it is in Scripture.

F.G.H. You made a remark this morning that in praying for the powers that be it is necessary for us to understand "the times of the nations", otherwise we may drop down to mere formality. If it would not be detaining you, would you mind saying a word further on that point?

G.R.C. I think this vision helps much as to that. It shows the varied features of rule which God orders during the times of the nations; the overriding

feature is that there is no authority except from God -- that is the gold. It was particularly manifested in Nebuchadnezzar's empire, but the principle has remained ever since. Other metals come in historically in the order given here, but, having come in, those features of rule remain, because you will notice that when the stone smote the image, it says in verse 35, "Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold broken in pieces together, and they became like the chaff of the summer threshing-floors". That is to say that, although the principle that there is no authority except from God was manifested in its fulness in the Babylonish empire, the principle remains right through the times of the nations. Paul was writing in the time of the fourth empire, and he says, "there is no authority except from God; and those that exist are set up by God". So that the gold has not ceased to be there; indeed the whole image is still existing, for the stone struck the feet of the image, and then all the features which marked the image were broken in pieces together and became like the chaff of the summer threshing-floors. In the Medo-Persian kingdom the silver element of rule came into view and while there is the idea of deterioration which is spoken of in verse 39, yet, I believe, there is also another meaning, and that is that in the Persian kingdom God introduced the silver principle into Gentile government; that is, He raised up rulers such as Cyrus who was himself the subject of prophecy in Isaiah 45, who considered for God's rights over His people, and made way governmentally for His house to be rebuilt and His service re-established. Then in the Grecian empire the brass came into view, for it was, generally speaking, a persecuting power, and, from the divine standpoint, a disciplinary power. Therefore the brass indicates that another way in which God uses Gentile rulers is for discipline, when He sees that the state of

His people requires it. Lastly, the fourth empire, Rome, was especially marked by strength, as suggested in the iron. In the final phase of iron and clay, we can see the greatest deterioration, yet each phase is ordered by God. We are thankful for the strength of the iron -- constitutional government such as marks the western world. But then there is the clay of democracy, a very base principle, yet used of God to afford liberty of conscience to His people. So I think, if we get a view of these authorities, whatever their character, as being ordered by God, it will lead to worship and prayer, both of which are found in 1 Timothy, worship to the King of the ages and to the blessed and only Ruler, and prayers for all men and kings and all in dignity. If we pray to the blessed and only Ruler it should be in the light of what Daniel said, "it is he that changeth times and seasons; He deposeth kings, and setteth up kings". The question is whether we are intelligent enough to know when a time or a season ought to be changed. I am not suggesting a great change like a dispensational change; the Lord says in that connection, the Father reserves times and seasons in His own authority; but as to present detailed changes.

J.McK. Would it be a feature of intelligence with Daniel and his companions that they approached the God of the heavens? I was thinking of the idea of God being able for all these things. He does not approach the God of Israel but the God of the heavens.

G.R.C. Does not this book bring out that "the heavens do rule"?

J.McK. Yes, and it would include the whole of the created realm -- the God of the heavens?

G.R.C. It would; and, in Christianity, we have the whole created realm particularly in mind because our struggle is not against blood and flesh but against principalities and authorities in the heavenlies. We recognise the heavenly side of the matter, and our

struggle is there. But then these evil principalities and authorities in the heavenlies will, if they have the opportunity, influence the powers on earth, as we see later in this book.

J.McK. That is all very instructive. The title "God of the heavens", and "Blessed be the name of God for ever and ever", would all have in view His wonderful supremacy over all things, and that is where Daniel's confidence lay.

G.R.C. Paul penetrates farther, because he says, "the blessed and only Ruler ... the King of those that reign, and Lord of those that exercise lordship; who only has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen, nor is able to see; to whom be honour and eternal might". I cannot but think that one who could thus worship God would know how to pray intelligently, according to 1 Timothy 2. That chapter supposes intelligent prayer; because it is not only prayer but supplications and intercessions.

W.C.P. Would the prayer in Acts 4 agree with what you are saying? "They, having heard it, lifted up their voice with one accord to God, and said, Lord, thou art the God who made the heaven and the earth and the sea, and all that is in them".

G.R.C. It would be on a similar line; but Paul penetrates farther in saying "dwelling in unapproachable light". That is, in thought he does so, in the power of the Holy Spirit. We cannot approach what is unapproachable; but I do not think any but one in the light of Christian revelation could speak in that way. How did he know that in those unapproachable conditions, God was dwelling in light? It speaks of Him in the Old Testament as dwelling in obscurity, and so He was as far as men were concerned; but Paul knew that His absolute dwelling is in light, light of such a character that it is unapproachable, and yet it is light. That is a great thing to

come to, and it is the Christian revelation that enables a person to say such a thing; because God having now disclosed Himself in the fullest way in which He can be known to the creature, we discover that He is light and in Him is no darkness at all. Therefore, in going back in thought to where God dwells in absoluteness, we know it must be light, though unapproachable. But I am drawing attention to the fact that one of the highest notes of worship in Scripture is expressed in relation to the matter of government. Is that right, Mr. M.?

A.E.M. I think so. But I would like to ask a question as to Daniel. In the first six chapters he is interpreter of dreams, but in the last six he is himself dreaming. It is God Himself revealing to Daniel that the empires were beasts. That is a private communication. You would not address the governments of the nations as beasts -- it is for yourself.

G.R.C. Very good. Would not the dreams given to Daniel be to prepare the saints for what they have to face and to fortify them? If we have to come into conflict, through testimony, with Gentile powers, we have to be prepared for the fact that they are "beasts" in themselves, and therefore it will almost always entail a measure of suffering.

H.F.R. Hence the importance of knowing God as the "King of those that reign, and Lord of those that exercise lordship".

G.R.C. As we are preserved in the light of that we would not fear a beast, however wild. Paul had no fear of Nero, he said that the Lord delivered him out of the lion's mouth.

H.F.R. I was thinking of that.

A.J.G. Is it significant that both in chapter 2 and also in chapter 7 God gives a great deal more detail as regards the last empire, that is, the fourth, than as to the others? What would you say as to that?

G.R.C. Does it not show that, while in a primary

sense the prophecy has to do with Israel and its hopes and sufferings, yet the whole of the church period was very much in the Spirit's mind?

A.J.G. I was wondering that also. Therefore the assembly is in view in what is to be worked out during the dominion of the fourth empire.

G.R.C. Just so. Christ Himself was to come under that empire and then there was to be this long period of time -- a hiatus in prophetic history of nearly two thousand years. The whole time from Nebuchadnezzar to Christ was only about six hundred years, but now we have had nearly two thousand years of the Christian era, yet it is still the times of the nations. The present period is a kind of hiatus in the prophetic record, when God is working out the greatest of all matters, and the fulness of the nations is coming in in its greatest sense. Following this period nations as nations will come into blessing, but it will be a very short work, it will not involve the skilled operations of the present day. The prophet says, "Shall a nation be born at once? For as soon as Zion travailed she brought forth her sons", Isaiah 66:8. There will be a rapid work, but nothing compared with the quality of the work proceeding now. Therefore, in view of the importance of what is going on now, God would help us to understand the secret revealed to Daniel as regards Nebuchadnezzar's vision, as well as his own visions, so that we might be furnished in the knowledge of His ways as the blessed and only Ruler, and have confiding intercourse with Him, according to 1 Timothy 2:1 -- see footnote -- as to matters of rule. Is that right?

A.J.G. I am sure it is.

A.B. You were saying that the earlier features of the empire -- the gold and the silver and the brass -- are carried down to the later phases, the present phase. Could you say more as to how that works out?

G.R.C. It applies especially during this hiatus.

You see, while we are, in a way, in the time of the fourth kingdom, it is a modified form of it. It is not purely Roman in character. The western world is the 'follow on' of the Roman empire, but it is a modified form of things, in which we can see clearly enough that the other forms of rule run on. First of all, "there is no authority except from God", still applies. We are not yet at the time when the dragon gives his throne and authority to the beast; we are still in a time when we can say, "there is no authority except from God; and those that exist are set up by God". So that the principle of the gold is still with us; and then, especially in these days of recovery, the principle of the silver has come into view. God has raised up rulers, prepared by Himself, as instruments of government, who have been favourable to His people and have made way, in their governmental matters, for the saints to have liberty to return to first principles without fear of man's interference. That is all God's mercy, it is the 'silver' type of rule. But then, the 'brass' type of rule runs on because, in its extended form, it is outside of the Roman empire. The Grecian empire was divided into four parts, and the part in which the brass particularly remains in evidence is the northern part, called later "the king of the north", and that power never comes into the orbit of the fourth empire. During this dispensation that element has not been lacking. God has at times permitted men marked by that feature of rule to rise up -- we have had it in our own day. We have been through two world wars marked by this feature of brass, God dealing in a disciplinary way with Christendom as a whole, but with ourselves also; and all that should humble us before God. There have been earlier examples of it in the Christian era. But then, over all, during this period, we have the iron. That is, we thank God for the stability of government in the

western world, and yet there is the mixture of democracy -- the clay -- which is terrible in its baseness. Yet even that God uses. Is this correct?

A.E.M. I understand it is so.

G.R.C. Would not all this help us as to prayer?

A.B. It emphasises the beneficial side of government, and, as you say, it would encourage our prayers that God may use all these things for the welfare and gain of His people.

G.R.C. Just so. "Wisdom and might are his", that is, nothing can happen without God. Might belongs to Him. We must look beyond second causes and allow for His wisdom to operate in governmental matters. "Wisdom and might are his. And it is he that changeth times and seasons". In a way, we never know when they are going to change. The great change is about to come when the Lord Jesus will come, and direct government will supersede the indirect. Also we do not know when times and seasons, in a detailed way, may change. We have had favourable conditions in this land and we must still pray for them; but "it is he that changeth times and seasons; He deposeth kings, and setteth up kings". I would think there is liberty to approach God in these matters. There are brethren, for instance, in Russia to whom we have no access; why should that be?

E.C.M. Do you think there is great significance attaching to what Paul says, "I exhort therefore, first of all", as though it is an urgent matter?

G.R.C. It is an urgent matter, and I believe the word "first of all" means that it is first of all from the standpoint of testimony.

E.C.M. That is what I was thinking in regard to the brethren who are still deprived of their privileges of assembling together in a public way.

F.P.S. "Who desires that all men should be saved" -- all men, not only the brethren.

G.R.C. We have to keep in mind, do we not, that Ephesians and 1 Timothy have to be read together. 1 Timothy is a complementary instruction to the epistle to the Ephesians. The latter brings out the great truth of God's habitation in the Spirit subsisting here on earth, in chapter 2, and the service which proceeds in it in chapter 3, ending with all prayer and supplication at all seasons with all perseverance for all saints in chapter 6. Now that is one side and that, no doubt, takes precedence; that is the great matter God has on hand, what He is doing in the saints. But then, co-related to that, we have the instruction written to Timothy at Ephesus as to the testimonial aspect of the house of God, and in that connection he says, "I exhort therefore, first of all". That is, there is nothing more important from the testimonial angle than the kind of prayer in 1 Timothy 2. If a man comes into the meeting and does not hear prayer of that kind, we fail to represent God in His own house. It is put before conduct; conduct comes next in the chapter; but the first and foremost thing in testimony is that anyone approaching God in His house should hear supplications, prayers, intercessions, thanksgivings for all men, for kings and all in dignity; and if they do not hear that, God is not rightly represented in His house, which is a most solemn matter.

A.E.M. You are speaking of a most important matter. I think most of us are clear about the question of conscience, as regards ourselves; but whether we are clear as regards the truth; the rights of God, the rights of Christ and the duties and responsibilities of the assembly, is another matter.

G.R.C. Could you say more as to those three things.

A.E.M. The Lord witnessed before Pontius Pilate as regards the truth, the whole truth. We must have in mind witness for the whole truth. It includes the

rights of God and the rights of Christ. He also has rights over the assembly: the government must not interfere with that.

G.R.C. So if governments seek to interfere with God's rights in His own house, we should approach them and the truth should be stated to them, because the power they are wielding is given them by God; they are responsible to Him. Do you think, in that way, it is only fair to them that they should be warned as to what they are doing with the power delegated to them, because they will come into judgment on that account?

A.E.M. Quite so. The Christian is the only one who is competent to tell the nations what is going to happen.

F.W.K. The Lord warned Pilate. The authority which belonged to Pilate was from above.

G.R.C. And that word went right home to Pilate's conscience. There was a man who, it may be, had been a careless one of the nations up to that time, but the word from the Lord went right home: "Thou hadst no authority whatever against me if it were not given to thee from above", John 19:11; and that is the truth.

A.E.M. And it extended to his wife.

G.R.C. It did; there was thus an effective testimony to the Gentile ruler.

F.W.T. Psalm 105 says, He "reproved kings for their sakes".

G.R.C. Very good. It says in verse 16, "Daniel went in, and requested of the king" and then in verse 25, "Arioch brought in Daniel before the king". Many of us may have had misgivings as to whether we ought to approach authorities and with some there may still be such feeling. It is on the minds of the French brethren to approach the highest authorities in that land at the present moment. Could you say a word to help us, Mr. M.?

A.E.M. Could we read a verse in Exodus 8:20, "Jehovah said to Moses, Rise up early in the morning, and stand before Pharaoh -- behold, he will go out to the water -- and say to him, Thus saith Jehovah, Let my people go, that they may serve me". That is another example of standing before the king and maintaining the rights of God.

G.R.C. You mean that God had rights over His people, He had rights over their service?

A.E.M. Moses was to stand before Pharaoh -- not after him but before him -- on the way to the water early in the morning.

J.J.T. You were saying this morning that wisdom and might are God's. Lower down it says that He has given me wisdom and might. Would that not come into the question you are now raising as to coming in before the king?

G.R.C. I think that would be the point of it. It is a remarkable thing. Wisdom and might are His; that is, all true wisdom and all might belong to God; they are nowhere else. The wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. Then Daniel says, "Who hast given me wisdom and might", verse 23. We think sometimes of David's words, "in thy hand is power and might; and in thy hand it is to make all great and strong", 1 Chronicles 29:12. That is in the service of God, God would make us great and strong there. But here He is giving Daniel wisdom and might to stand in the presence of the king. It was the might of God that was in Daniel. I believe that is the great point to understand, that if God orders that His direct representatives should stand in the presence of earthly rulers, it is to the end that earthly rulers might be brought to acknowledge that the might, operating in His direct representatives, is greater than the power He has delegated to them.

R.G.B. Do we see in Nehemiah how that operates? It says that Nehemiah prayed to the God of the

heavens, and God gave him favour with the ruler and a way was made for the people, so that the rights of God might be respected among the saints.

G.R.C. That is very good. He was feeling his weakness, and so would anyone in that position. We would not get wisdom and might from God if we did not feel our weakness. God alone stands in His own strength; that is what the word 'El' signifies; all other strength is derived, whether we think of inanimate bodies, like the sun, or whether we think of men or angels, all other strength is derived. No one has strength except it has come from God. But then, the power with which He invests the saints today is the power of the Holy Spirit. "Greater is he that is in you than he that is in the world", 1 John 4:4. And I believe, if a saint has to appear before a ruler, it has in view that the ruler should be brought to recognise that the might of God in the Spirit, operating in that saint, is greater than the power delegated to the ruler; and if the two come into collision the saint will always win. Even though he may be slain he will be the victor.

A.J.G. Is that not seen in the way that Nebuchadnezzar at the end falls on his face and worships Daniel?

G.R.C. Quite so. He was consciously in the presence of a power greater than himself or anything that had been delegated to him; he was in the presence of the power of God operating in Daniel.

-.C. Would that be seen in Paul in front of Agrippa? "With the help which is from God, I have stood firm unto this day", Acts 26:22.

G.R.C. I have no doubt at all that Agrippa would get the sense that the power operating in that chained prisoner was greater than any power he had met before; and that is the truth as to the saints. We can rest assured of this that if the power wielding delegated authority in this world comes into collision

with the power operating in the saints, it will always be defeated. It may mean martyrdom for some of the saints, but that power will always have to go down in the end. It is just a question of our being faithful and in a right state of soul to have divine support.

W.G.C. Would that be seen in Stephen when it says they were not able to resist the wisdom and the Spirit with which he spoke?

G.R.C. Quite so. He had to appear before the sanhedrim which condemned the Lord.

H.F.R. The opposing powers in this country went down before the martyrs in the middle ages.

G.R.C. It is a marvellous thing to look back in spiritual history and see how this has been verified, when men, outwardly defenceless, have been called upon to bear witness before authorities as to the rights of God.

S.W. Paul said, "the Lord stood with me, and gave me power", 2 Timothy 4:17. Is that the secret of it, do you think, that the Lord is with His servants?

G.R.C. Very good. Paul was in the presence of the lion. The dreams to Daniel were to furnish the saints and to prepare them for the character of things they would have to face. When the powers do come into collision with the saints and reject the rights of God, their bestial character becomes manifest. Paul was in the presence of the Roman power in bestial character, and he said, "the Lord stood with me, and gave me power". The might of God was there. He said, "through me the proclamation might be fully made". He was fully victorious.

D.McI. Is there a suggestion of the power in verse 44? "In the days of these kings shall the God, of the heavens set up a kingdom which shall never; be destroyed".

G.R.C. Yes. It is interesting the way it is put.

The stone cut out without hands, which smote the image, is not said here to be Christ personally, although we know, in the manifestation of the kingdom publicly, Christ will personally bring down the image and sweep away the whole system of indirect government to introduce His own direct government in the earth. Nevertheless it says, "in the days of these kings shall the God of the heavens set up a kingdom". I would suggest that that kingdom already exists; the Lord preached that the kingdom of God is drawn nigh, but in Acts it was preached, not as drawn nigh, but as established -- see Acts 20:25; Acts 28:31, etc. It was established and existing on the earth, and it has been existing all through this dispensation.

H.F.R. Does that involve the presence of the Spirit?

G.R.C. It does. It involves the presence of the Spirit in the saints; the kingdom of God is here and it is set up in the days of these kings. So that we may well read the present period, though strictly outside of Old Testament prophetic testimony, into this verse, which says, "in the days of these kings". While all these forms of government are going on, the God of the heavens has set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed.

J.M. Does it come into Revelation when John says He has "made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father", Revelation 1:6?

G.R.C. Quite so. He has made us a kingdom, and it is a kingdom which will never be destroyed. It is a kingdom which, when it is manifested in its public character in Christ Himself and the saints, will fill the whole earth.

A.H. Why is priesthood linked up with that in Revelation 1:6?

G.R.C. Because the kingdom is established in order that every feature of service proper to the

house might be maintained. Our testimonial stand in the governmental sphere is in view of the maintenance of all that is due to God in His house.

A.H. I wondered whether it linked up with your reference to intercession in Timothy.

G.R.C. Quite so. While it is of the first importance testimonially that anyone coming into the house of God should hear prayers of that kind, yet the purpose of the intercession is that the saints, as leading a quiet and tranquil life, should be able to pursue without any hindrance the truth set out in Ephesians; that is, all that is connected with the habitation of God in the Spirit here, and the service of God proceeding, and then, flowing out from that, God's character as a Saviour made known to men.

R.G.B. Is the kingdom of God in view of the development and maintenance of the truth of the assembly?

G.R.C. It is. The kingdom set up in the days of these kings is something which can never be destroyed; it is an indestructible kingdom set up here in order that the truth of the habitation of God in the Spirit might be maintained. The kingdom protects the habitation of God.

E.C.M. Would you say that makes way for the service of God? I was thinking of the verse in Hebrews 12, "Wherefore let us, receiving a kingdom not to be shaken, have grace, by which let us serve God acceptably with reverence and fear. For also our God is a consuming fire". It is over against what can be shaken.

G.R.C. Quite so. This image will be completely destroyed; every other power will be shaken and come down. How wonderful to receive a kingdom which cannot be shaken! And what a lever it is for us, as receiving that kingdom, to carry through the whole service of God! "Let us ... have grace".

S.H. Is Peter's first epistle written in the light

of the kingdom? There is the feature of brass, and then the spiritual priesthood and the kingly priesthood come into view in the presence of the acceptance of the discipline?

G.R.C. He is writing to Christians who were Jews of the dispersion, and he speaks of fiery trial coming upon them.

S.H. Quite so, and he writes from Babylon, as if the brass side is in mind.

G.R.C. Yes. They had suffered at the hands of rulers; but nevertheless the priesthood was to function without any break, was it not?

A.B. In Acts 16 Paul and Silas in prison, suffering violence from the authorities, were marked by prayer and praise and singing to God, so that in spite of the outward conditions, the choicest features in the service of God were maintained; and then later the opportunity to commend Christ to the needy man, the service of the gospel.

C.N. What would you say as to the position in eastern Europe where the authority is evidently of a repressive character as far as the meetings are concerned? What would you say as to the prayers that should mark the house?

G.R.C. That comes under the heading of the brass. In fact the power that is behind the repression today, is the power that will, no doubt, be behind the king of the north in his disciplinary activities in future. The king of the north is always a disciplinary agent, used by God to that end, and the invasions of Europe in the middle ages were all from a similar source, and were all connected with the discipline of God upon a corrupt profession. So that we have to take account of the fact that God is dealing with a corrupt profession in that part of the earth; but I wonder whether the time has come, which we ought to discern, for a change. I do not know whether I am right but I wonder whether we have prayed

enough about it. It is He that changes times and seasons. Why should there not be a change now? The discipline has gone on for a long time. Why should we not supplicate God for a change so that we might have access to those still faithful to Him in Russia? Why should there be saints unable in a practical way to enjoy the universal fellowship?

A.E.M. You are dealing with a king of the north, not the western side of things. I should pray that the powers of Russia might open up the way for the saints to meet together. In that sense I should pray against them, but I would pray for them, too.

G.R.C. You mean you would pray against them as instruments of Satan and governed by communistic principles, but, at the same time, look to God either to change their hearts, or to raise up others who shall make away, so that those saints should not be isolated and should not be hindered from their privileges of gathering?

A.E.M. Yes. Behind the attitude of the authorities in this country is a long list of martyrs.

G.R.C. There is a great background in this country which we are apt to take for granted and perhaps the younger people especially. In regard to tribunals they are treated with much consideration. But the liberty we have in this country is the result of a background of martyrdom; men have suffered and laid down their lives.

W.S.S. I suppose the liberty has to be maintained on the same principle.

G.R.C. It has, and the fact that the brethren in France are facing the principle of martyrdom now should awaken us all in this matter, and awaken the young people as to how much they owe to those who have gone before in this country and therefore energise them not to make light of their privileges, but to be wholly set for the Lord themselves.

A.C.S.P. When Arioch brought in Daniel he said,

"I have found a man". They were youths in chapter 1 but it is now manhood that impressed the authorities.

G.R.C. Where a soul is faithful to the Lord, manhood develops early, does it not!

E.C.M. When Daniel is brought in, Arioch says he is of the sons of the captivity. I was thinking of Paul's word, remember prisoners as bound with them. Does that have any bearing, whether we are really bound with them?

G.R.C. Yes, and then Paul says in Hebrews 13, "Know that our brother Timothy is set at liberty". That is, the authorities had moved in his case, and we can pray about these things. It was needful for the testimony that Timothy should be set at liberty. Paul remained bound, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for us nations. It was no mistake that Paul remained bound.

D.McI. I was wondering if you had some further thought about approaching authorities -- you have mentioned it several times. Daniel went in to the king. Had you any thought of approach in your mind in those other powers that are so inimicable?

G.R.C. I must confess I had not thought of it in connection with Russia. It would be a matter, in the first instance, for the brethren there. But I thought our lack had been in supplication and prayers to God that He might change things.

J.C.T. Might the word in regard to Sennacherib be an encouragement? God says, "I know thine abode, and thy going out, and thy coming in, and thy raging against me. Because thy raging against me and thine arrogance is come up into mine ears, I will put my ring in thy nose", Isaiah 37:28, 29. Will not God taken account of these things and intervene on behalf of His people?

G.R.C. I am sure He will.

W.C.P. Would Peter in prison be an instance.

Times were changed there. It says that unceasing prayer was made by the assembly to God concerning him, but, while he was set at liberty, there was also the martyrdom of James.

G.R.C. Yes, and then God dealt with the king.

A.J.G. Do you think, if God allows repressive conditions to continue in a certain part of the earth, it is because He would secure at the end not only Philadelphian features but also Smyrna features. Those are the two churches in the seven where the Lord has no complaint to make.

G.R.C. I think we have to take into account, that if the discipline is all under God's hand, that it is ordered. This book shows that. As the book develops, there is much about the king of the north and his disciplinary activities but they are all under divine control and they bring to light the maschilim; the wise come to light. Daniel, of course, is one of them here, because he says God had given him wisdom and might. Daniel is thus one of the maschilim.

Ques. You refer to chapter 11: 33?

G.R.C. Yes. "They that are wise among the people shall instruct the many"; and then, in verse 32, "the people that know their God shall be strong, and shall act". That refers to the time when the northern power is active in its desolating work, but it is all under God, it is disciplinary work. Then, in chapter 12: 10 "Many shall be purified, and be made white, and be refined"; and in verse 3 "they that are wise shall shine as the brightness of the expanse". Thus, if God allows a disciplinary power, it is in view of forming those who shall be among the wise, because, while God gives wisdom, we are not ready to receive it until we have been through certain experiences. It is the gift of God but we would not be capable of taking it in, or of appreciating it, unless we were put in certain circumstances. And

so, in His disciplinary ways, He places us in circumstances where we feel the need of wisdom and then He gives it. Thus we value it, and become formed by it, and that is the idea of the maschilim.

Ques. Does not God allow the Assyrian to discipline His people and then deals with him for his pride and excesses?

G.R.C. Just so. God uses a power for discipline, but He does not fail to judge and destroy that power when the discipline has done its work. We have seen that in our own day. We have seen dictators destroyed in a most ignominious way after they have fulfilled what God had in mind in discipline.

S.A.V.W. Is that seen in Joseph, the discipline first before his wisdom shone out?

G.R.C. I do not think any of us would appreciate divine wisdom without going through certain disciplinary experiences. That is how the maschilim are formed.

W.S.S. Referring to the two world wars, the discipline through which we went then benefited the saints. The disciplinary action of the king of the north, which we find so much in Scripture, thus enters, in measure, into experience we have had to pass through.

G.R.C. Yes. And an appreciation of the way God synchronises His governmental actions with His spiritual work leads to worship. There is infinite wisdom in it: "O depth of riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God!"

W.S.S. I think what we have been having is exceedingly valuable, and if we were more intelligent in these things we would be in closer communion with God Himself.

G.R.C. I believe so. There is a note in 1 Timothy 2 to the word 'intercession'; it says: "Personal and confiding intercourse with God on the part of one able to approach him". Can we confidingly speak to

God in relation to men and to kings and all those in dignity? Do we know how to speak to God about the authorities?

Ques. So you would feel that the apostle, writing in that way to Timothy, would have the scope of what we are reading in Daniel in mind?

G.R.C. Undoubtedly.

Rem. The way in which we are looking at Daniel affords divine wisdom as to how to approach the authorities.

G.R.C. In connection with Mr. S.'s remark about the discipline of the two world wars, we need to beware lest we now become careless and give up the spiritual state which marked Daniel at the beginning of this book -- the choosing of the pulse and the water. I feel there is a danger of that at the moment.

H.F.R. Do you think there is a distinct link in that way between conditions we enjoy in this part of the world, and other parts too, and what the saints are going through in Russia? If we are not faithful to the Lord we are probably adding to their burdens, and the period will have to be prolonged.

G.R.C. Quite so. So it is distressing to see any encroachment of worldly practices or ideas amongst the saints in the smallest way, anything connected with "the king's delicate food", whether in connection with our marriages, or with other occasions. All should be on the level of the holy fellowship. Let us all beware lest, on any pretext, we drop below that level. We may think we are raising the level to suit our social status, but the Lord Jesus said that what is highly esteemed amongst men is an abomination to God

CHRIST JESUS -- HIS APPEARING AND HIS KINGDOM (ADDRESS)

Daniel 7:1 - 3; Daniel 7 - 11, 13, 14, 17, 18, 21, 22, 27; Revelation 1:12 - 18; Revelation 22:12 - 14, 16, 17 (first clause)

I wish to speak, dear brethren, of the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, and also to show that we already have to do, in a judicial character, with the One who will appear; but to indicate, at the same time, what is the end in view in His judicial dealings. Daniel 7 deals with the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ. It is the great hope set before our hearts -- the appearing in glory of our great God and Saviour, Jesus Christ. Let us not be waiting for anything else than this! Let our hearts be expectant as to the glory about to be revealed! We know that the rapture comes first, but the great culmination is the appearing. They are the two parts of the Lord's coming. We can understand, I think, the appearing being introduced into Daniel 7 because it is a communication given to Daniel to prepare the saints, throughout the times of the nations, for the character of opposition they may at any time be called upon to face; warning us beforehand, but bringing in the immense comfort that the persecuting power is about to be dealt with, dealt with finally, and dealt with by One who is so great, no less than the Ancient of days Himself!

So, as thus prepared by divine communications, we should be ready to face the beast, as far as we may be called upon to do, without any fear of man in our hearts. Paul faced him alone; he said, "At my first defence no man stood with me, but all deserted me. May it not be imputed to them. But

the Lord stood with me, and gave me power, that through me the proclamation might be fully made, and all those of the nations should hear; and I was delivered out of the lion's mouth", 2 Timothy 4:16, 17. If the Lord ordered that Paul should face the Gentile power in its bestial character, it was just to manifest His power and the Spirit's power. The power which was operating in Paul was immensely greater than the power delegated to the Emperor. The Emperor could bring all his power against Paul, but he could not possibly overthrow that man; the Spirit of God was indwelling him, and the Lord was standing by him. It was impossible to overthrow him! The whole power of Rome could not overthrow him; so much so that the situation ended in complete victory. He said, "that through me the proclamation might be fully made". It was at that time, when all forsook him, that God operated through one man in order that the proclamation might be fully made. There was never such a proclamation! The truth as to God and as to man was fully set out, the proclamation from the King of the ages, "the blessed and only Ruler ... the King of those that reign, and Lord of those that exercise lordship". Paul was His ambassador, His direct representative, and the truth as to Him was proclaimed fully and all those of the nations heard. Paul faced an array of temporal power such as few, if any, have been called upon to face. Luther faced a great array of power, but Paul faced what represented the power of the whole Roman empire at that time. It was all arranged by God, in order that through him the proclamation might be fully made, and all those of the nations should hear.

Paul was in no wise intimidated by the beast. The Roman beast is a terrible one, different from the other beasts, as it says in this chapter. According to Revelation, in its future manifestation it is like a leopardess and its feet as of a bear and its mouth as

a lion's mouth. Who would not be terrified? But Paul was not terrified; no believer need be terrified if he is right with God. He was right up against the lion's mouth, but he was delivered out of it. What a fearless man, conscious of the power of God, one who could say in a greater way than Daniel that God gave him wisdom and might! So he says, "The Lord shall deliver me from every wicked work, and shall preserve me for his heavenly kingdom; to whom be glory for the ages of ages. Amen". Paul's last doxology! We have spoken about young men -- the importance of young men carrying forward the testimony; but here we see an old man -- "Paul the aged" -- going out in full battle array, carrying the standard through to the end, and never more powerful than at the end! And he speaks of the Lord's heavenly kingdom.

There is a reference to the heavenly kingdom in Daniel 7. First of all it says in verse 13, "I saw in the night visions, and behold, there came with the clouds of heaven one like a son of man, and he came up even to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory and a kingdom". Everything is put into the hands of "one like a son of man" -- what a contrast to the beast! The beasts come up from the sea -- verse 3 -- that is how they arise; and their character is that they arise out of the earth -- verse 17. But of the Son of man, it says, "who is in heaven", John 3:13. His is a heavenly kingdom; its origin is heaven. What a blessed contrast! When the times of the nations finish and the final beast is judged, the Son of man is given the kingdom!

But then it says further down in verse 18, "But the saints of the most high places shall receive the kingdom". Paul is to be preserved for this heavenly kingdom as one of the saints of the most high places. It is true that Daniel could not look on to this

dispensation, the mystery being hidden in God; so that there is a reference here to other saints besides those of the assembly, those who have a heavenly portion -- Daniel, himself, I suppose, amongst them -- and including those who are martyred after the assembly is raptured. But yet who can doubt that the Spirit, in His mind, would have before Him, in a peculiar way, the saints of the present time? Mr. Darby says he has no doubt that the expression 'the heavenlies' in Ephesians is taken from this passage. We already know our part there. Those in the Old Testament days sought a better country, that is, a heavenly, but they did not know what it was to sit down there. But those who have known the quickening power of God, according to Ephesians 2, know something of that already. I do not say all the saints are in the good of it but I am saying that those who know the quickening power of God, according to Ephesians 2, can have some experience now, by faith, of having been raised up together and made to sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus. Who knew more of that than Paul? And those who belong to the most high places are the ones who are said to receive the kingdom -- a wonderful thing! When the Son of man receives the kingdom we shall receive the kingdom with Him. What a comfort in view of this present time! If we suffer we shall reign. As suffering for Him here in testimony we can look on to the time -- now imminent -- when the Son of man shall be given everlasting dominion -- verse 14 -- and "the saints of the most high places shall receive the kingdom, and they shall possess the kingdom for ever, even to the ages of ages", verse 18. Our part in the kingdom will be heavenly, as Paul says, the Lord "shall preserve me for his heavenly kingdom".

But then, in verse 22 it says, "judgment was given to the saints of the most high places", that is to say, judgment is put into their hands. The present period

of testimony is surely education for us in view of the honour yet to be placed upon us, for Paul says to the Corinthians, "Do ye not then know that the saints shall judge the world? Do ye not know that we shall judge angels?" 1 Corinthians 6:2, 3. The force of this verse -- Daniel 7:22 -- is that judgment is put into their hands, they were to execute it. The Lord Himself, of course, executes the judgment at His appearing; He does it personally. But the judgment of matters generally in the kingdom is carried on by the heavenly saints. "And judgment was given to the saints of the most high places; and the appointed time arrived, and the saints possessed the kingdom".

Then to complete the picture, it says in verse 27, "But the kingdom and the dominion, and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heavens, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most high places" -- not to the saints of the most high places, they are in the heavenlies, but to the people of the saints. That refers to the Jews and to Israel, as recovered and raised up here on earth. They are regarded as the people of the saints, and the earthly side of the kingdom, that which is "under the whole heavens", is committed to them. The heavenly saints have their part and the people of the saints have theirs. Think of the honour God is placing on the saints of the most high places in this chapter! They are said to receive the kingdom and to possess it for ever and ever, and judgment is committed to them. Finally the earthly people are brought in as their people; not spoken of here as the people of God but the people of the saints of the most high places, showing what an affectionate link there will be between the heavenly saints and the earthly people in that day. So the picture is complete -- the heavenly saints are in their position; and the earthly people are in theirs, as having the dominion and the

greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heavens.

Now I want to refer to the Son of man Himself, but first of all to the Ancient of days. He is introduced in verse 9 in connection with a session of judgment. "I beheld till thrones were set, and the Ancient of days did sit". This is a scene of the utmost splendour! "His raiment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like pure wool; his throne was flames of fire and its wheels burning fire. A stream of fire issued and came forth from before him" -- it is a throne of judgment. Think of His attendants! "Thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set". What a glorious scene of majesty this is -- the times of the nations finished and the day of reckoning come in connection with the final phase of the fourth empire in which the pride of man reaches its height in blasphemy against God. We shall be with the Lord Jesus then. You may say, Who is this Ancient of days? The Ancient of days is God Himself. Who is the Person who appears? It is the Lord Jesus. The Lord Jesus is the Ancient of days. The passage read in the book of Revelation shows that He is both the Son of man and the Ancient of days -- marvellous truth, the mystery of His Person! Truly Man, and, as the Son of man, the kingdom is given to Him. Viewed in this vision as Son of man, He comes up to the Ancient of days. And yet the truth of the whole matter is that the Son of man is the Ancient of days. What a glorious thing it will be to be amongst the thousand thousands who minister to Him and the ten thousand times ten thousand that stand before Him! How we shall rejoice to belong to His train in that day!

But it is not only that we shall belong to His train, but in verse 9 it says, "I beheld till thrones were set". They are not shown as occupied in Daniel but in the book of Revelation -- chapter 4 -- they are

occupied, the elders are sitting on thrones around the throne. No doubt we shall have our part among the thousand thousands who minister to Him, but we also have our part upon the thrones. How precious it is to think of the Lord Jesus in His glory thus! On the one hand, He is the Son of man in whom the promises centre, and, from that standpoint, He is given dominion and glory and a kingdom -- in verse 14; and yet, as to the truth of His Person, He is Himself the Ancient of days. So verse 22 says, "until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most high places". The Son of man is the promised coming one, but, when He comes, it is the Ancient of Days who comes.

Now what I wish to point out in Revelation 1 is that we have to do with this very same Person in a judicial way now. In many ways, the description in Revelation tallies with that in Daniel. "I saw ... in the midst of the seven lamps one like the Son of man", and then in verse 14, "his head and hair white like white wool, as snow". Here we have presented, in the one blessed Person, the Son of man and the Ancient of days, and He is appearing in judicial character; not sitting on a throne of judgment -- it is not a session of judgment -- but as walking in the midst of the seven golden lamps. It is the present gracious service of the Lord Jesus. How could we face Him if He were sitting on a throne of judgment in regard to our assembly responsibility? How could we face Him if a stream of fire issued and came forth from before Him? But although His eyes are as a flame of fire and His feet like fine brass burning in a furnace, He is walking in the midst of the seven golden lamps. Think of the grace of Christ, so great a Person, One who is Himself the Ancient of days, though Son of man, walking at the present time in the midst of the seven golden lamps. Under His all-searching gaze He is taking account of the

assemblies in their responsibility, not to bring in penal judgment, as He will do in Daniel 7 upon the beast, but that we might be brought to a judicial view of things corresponding with His own, and into a walk corresponding with His; that we might discern things as His eyes, as a flame of fire, discern them, and that our feet might be brought into ways of righteousness and truth.

So He gives His own estimate of what He sees, and in five of the seven assemblies He calls upon them to repent. How we need to repent in the presence of such a Person as this and the grace that leads Him to walk in the midst of the seven golden lamps, taking account of all that is there, with a view to bringing us, if we are prepared for it, into the current of His own thoughts and His own judgment of matters, so that we might be overcomers in the present situation and in due course sit with Him in His throne. "He that overcomes, to him will I give to sit with me in my throne". The overcomer has learnt to judge things as He judges them here, repentance has had its full place, and He says, I will give to such a one "to sit with me in my throne; as I also have overcome, and have sat down with my Father in his throne". It is the Ancient of days speaking; yet to the worst state of the church He says, "as many as I love". Think of the affections of Christ! This is our Beloved, this is the Beloved of the assembly, but seen here in the greatness of His Person and in His judicial character, like a Son of man and yet, by the description, the Ancient of days, and; by His own assertion, "the first and the last" -- a most definite title of Deity. This is the Beloved of the assembly, His eyes as a flame of fire, of whom it says, "Jealousy is cruel as Sheol: the flashes thereof are flashes of fire. Flames of Jah", Song of Songs 8:6. With the jealousy of divine love He is looking at the assembly here in responsibility, yet

with a love that remains in its strength. He says, "I rebuke and discipline as many as I love". He is moving judicially among the assemblies to bring us back to first love; and I believe the first step on the way back is to appreciate the Lord Jesus in this character.

If we appreciate Him thus the first thing we shall do is to fall at His feet as dead. John knew Him, perhaps, more than others as "the Beloved", yet he fell at His feet as dead. But as seeing Him thus and raised up by Him again, and facing assembly failure in His presence, John's affections for Him would be immensely intensified. And so with us. If we face assembly responsibility and failure in His presence, and are brought into accord with His mind and judgment, we shall love Him in a way we have never done before. This is really the first step in recovery to first love, which this book supposes. The Lord presents Himself in certain ways throughout the book, and the object in view is recovery to first love, and it is there at the end. "I am the root and offspring of David", not now the Ancient of days, it is another view -- "the bright and morning star. And the Spirit and the bride say, Come". That is, at the end of the book, there is recovery to first love proved by the fact that the bride is entirely in accord with the Spirit. The Spirit is saying, Come, and the bride is saying, Come. Recovery to first love involves the whole book of Revelation; the book deals with judgments and other things, but the presentations of the Lord, if appreciated, will bring about first love in our souls.

Now that brings me to what He has in view in acting judicially. He has in view the bringing in of all that which He died to secure -- all that engages Him as the Root and the Offspring of David. How attractive that title is to the assembly! When He

comes in judgment, according to Daniel 7, and sets up the kingdom, it will be in view of bringing into public display the result of His operations of love and grace as the Root and Offspring of David; but His judicial dealings at the present time are to bring about similar results in testimony now. What David and David's offspring, Solomon, established was, typically, God's best! All the most treasured thoughts of God were carried into effect, typically, by them. But they were only types; they point on to this blessed Person who is the Root of David. No one but David's Root could carry into effect those great and precious realities which were set out typically in the works of David and Solomon. The One who is the Root has come.

This title, like that of the Ancient of days, asserts His deity, but it is a different presentation. He says, "I am the root and offspring of David". These are two aspects of the truth of His Person. Just as in chapter 1 we see that the Son of man and the Ancient of days are one Person, so, at the end of the book, the Root and the Offspring of David are one Person. The assembly understands these things; the assembly apprehends, as no other creature, the truth of the Person of Christ, though the mystery of His Person is unfathomable. The Lord has no need either in the first or the last chapters to separate the two ideas. Those who form the assembly are intelligent enough to understand and hold in their affections both aspects of the truth.

In His judicial dealings at the present time, as walking in the midst of the seven golden lamps He has in view a Philadelphian result. It is in that address He says, "These things saith the holy, the true; he that has the key of David", and there He promises to make the overcomer a pillar in the temple of His God and to write upon him the name of His

God and the name of the city of His God, new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from His God, and His new name. Thus the judicial activities of the Lord, whether we think of them in their completeness in the future, or whether we think of them now, are to make way for the development and bringing out, whether now in testimony or then in future glory, of all that He died to establish, and all that He has laboured for so unceasingly as the Root and Offspring of David. May our hearts be encouraged in the light of this and may we be prepared to have to do with Him now in judicial character. Let us be prepared to come into the presence of the One like a Son of Man who is yet the Ancient of Days -- His eyes as a flame of fire, His feet as fine brass, His countenance as the sun shining in its power. What majesty! As we are prepared to be in His presence and to get His estimate of things, it will clear the way for assembly formation and service now which will delight His heart as the One who is the Root and Offspring of David.

Now I wish to say a word about Timothy because we have there an exhortation. "I testify before God and Christ Jesus, who is about to judge the living and dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom". Some may have questioned whether what we have been engaged with today is really important for Christians. I can tell you it is most important. Paul bases his exhortation upon it. He is bringing Daniel 7 before us, as well as other passages, when he speaks of His appearing and His kingdom, and He is bringing that to bear upon us as a lever in our souls to impel us to get on with the work. And what is the work? Proclaim the word. By Paul the proclamation was fully made in the presence of Nero. We are to be urgent in season and out of season in proclaiming the word. It really involves using the sword of the Spirit. We should pray to be more adept in the use

of it. The Spirit has made Himself better known to us and we should become more expert in using the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. Of the One in Revelation it says, "Out of his mouth a sharp two-edged sword going forth". In fact, when the Lord Jesus comes from heaven at the head of His army, according to Revelation 19, the only weapon He uses, apparently, is the sword of His mouth. You do not need any other weapon. Armies and navies will never settle anything finally because the conflict, the real conflict, is in the minds of men. Once you could bring men to govern themselves by the word of God, everything would be settled. If difficulties arise among the saints, the moment you can cause the word of God entirely to govern the minds of the saints, there is no more difficulty. Everything depends on that. When the word of God really governs the minds of men on this earth, wars, as we know them, will cease, the conflict will be over. We are, therefore, engaged in the real conflict. Among the nations we see physical conflicts which achieve nothing as to the solution of good and evil. They achieve things in the ways of God. God is over all in His providential ways. But, in the conflict we are engaged in, the only effective weapon is the sword of the Spirit. If only we knew how to use it! So he brings all this to bear upon Timothy: "I testify before God and Christ Jesus, who is about to judge living and dead". He is about to judge us. Not only is He walking in the midst of the seven golden lamps with His eyes as a flame of fire and His feet like fine brass, but presently He will cause us to stand before Him. Paul speaks about a crown of righteousness which the Lord the righteous Judge would give him in that day. We shall not stand before the Lord for penal judgment like the beast and the wicked dead. Thank God for that! But what is not judged now will have to be judged.

Before we appear with Him in His kingdom we shall have heard what the Judge has to say, the righteous Judge. He is about to judge living and dead, and about to appear and introduce His kingdom. It is all this that makes it so urgent that we should get on with the work at the present time. The proclamation of the word involves the work of the ministry, the work of the Lord, and it involves the conflict, too. It involves the use of the sword of the Spirit, and so Paul says, "convict, rebuke, encourage, with all long-suffering and doctrine". I have already referred to the way Paul went out. He went out with full battle honours, wielding the sword of the Spirit with the utmost effect in the presence of the greatest opposition that the Roman empire could bring to bear upon him. And so he calls upon us -- bringing all these great impending events to bear upon us -- to proclaim the word.

May the Lord help us in all these matters; and may He help us rightly to discern the difference between the vision given to Nebuchadnezzar and that given to Daniel. What I have been saying about the beasts and their character does not alter at all the truth set out in Nebuchadnezzar's vision that the authorities that exist are set up by God. Though, in themselves, they are bestial in character according to Daniel 7, yet, in the light of the vision in chapter 2, we have to recognise that God is over the whole matter of government and that He controls them. An understanding of the two visions will help us in our prayers. We shall pray that God may keep them under control and not permit them to display their bestial character. If He does permit it at certain times for disciplinary purposes, that is all part of His ways, but an understanding of these visions will help us to pray to God for restraint, that He may hold them in His hand and use them for good until that time when the kingdom, to which we already

belong, will, in the Person of the King, strike the feet of the image and it will disappear from the earth. The days of indirect government on God's part will be over, and the direct government of God in the hands of Christ will fill the earth.

May God help us in these matters for His name's sake.

THE TIMES OF THE NATIONS (3)

Daniel 3:13 - 30; Daniel 6:10 - 16, 21 - 28

G.R.C. We have read the two accounts in the book where the faithful were called upon to suffer for their faithfulness. In chapter 3 there were three young men: as we have already noticed, God counts upon young men to carry the testimony forward. In world affairs young men are in the front line in times of battle. It is a great triumph and a great testimony that there should be young men prepared to lay down their lives in faithfulness to the Lord; and it is a great privilege, because it is through suffering that testimony is rendered in high places.

But then in chapter 6 we have an aged man, a man of long experience with God, and we see him, as we would expect, standing faithful as having the whole truth of the assembly, typically, in his mind and heart. He was cherishing Jerusalem. We were speaking last night of Paul the aged, and how he went out with battle honours, having full part in the conflict, bearing a testimony in the highest places.

The three young men in the third chapter serve as models for those called upon to bear testimony before rulers. Their words before the king are very striking, and the king's words to them at the end are very striking. In verse 28 he says of them that they "changed the king's word, and yielded their bodies". The king took account of that. They were young men but they changed the king's word, and they did it by yielding their bodies. It is true that in their case, as also in the case of Daniel, there was physical deliverance. No doubt these cases represent, prophetically, the way God will shortly deliver a remnant, during the final power of the beast, and their deliverance will cause Gentile rulers to acknowledge God

as the Most High. Nevertheless the greatest evidence of power here is not in the practical deliverance although that affected the Gentile monarch. We are not always to expect physical deliverance. Hebrews 11 speaks of those who stopped lions' mouths and quenched the power of fire, but then it goes on to speak of those who were stoned and sawn asunder -- those who suffered actual martyrdom. It is not to be supposed that such were defeated, not at all; for the greatest display of power, even in the cases we are considering, is not in the deliverance, but in the men themselves. The greatest display of divine power in chapter 3 is seen in the fearless bearing of the three young men before Nebuchadnezzar, and in the words which they spoke to the king.

A.J.G. Do you mean their power shone when they say, "But if not, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods?"

G.R.C. Yes. Daniel had said earlier as to himself that God had given him wisdom and might. God had given him might, and He gave these three young men might to stand before the mightiest of monarchs in absolute calmness and to state their position without the slightest hesitation or compromise. The spiritual power manifested was greater than all the power of the Empire. They begin by saying, "O Nebuchadnezzar, we have no need to answer thee in this matter". What a word to the king, an absolute monarch who had said, "Who is the God that shall deliver you out of my hands?"

A.E.M. It is remarkable that they spoke with one voice.

G.R.C. That is a most important thing in testimony, and a thing we need to take account of, because the brethren have not always been unified in their attitude to the demands of the authorities, have they?

A.E.M. No, they have not.

G.H.S.P. Might the underlying state in the assembly that would lead to this unity be suggested in Esther? She says, "I also and my maidens will fast likewise, and so will I go in unto the king, which is not according to the law; and if I perish, I perish", Esther 4:16. I wondered whether manhood in public testimony is seen in the book of Daniel, and public testimony may be in the hands of relatively few, but the book of Esther may suggest what is found in the body of the saints, as supporting what may be stood for by relatively few.

G.R.C. That is good; Esther, being a woman, would suggest what is subjective, as found in the body of the saints.

E.C.M. Do you think the Lord's word to Smyrna applies? "Fear nothing of what thou art about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days. Be thou faithful unto death, and I will give to thee the crown of life", Revelation 2:10.

G.R.C. Quite so. God manifests His power in enabling His witnesses to stand, in the presence of the greatest power that can be brought against them, without the slightest fear, in confidence in Himself, and if needs be to suffer the extreme penalty. The extreme penalty struck no terror to the hearts of these three men. That is a remarkable thing. They evidently believed in the God who raises the dead.

A.L.O. Does purpose of heart lie behind what they said, as it did with Daniel in the first chapter, because there is no record that they had time to talk the matter over amongst themselves and come to one judgment, but they immediately reply that they will not do what the king says?

G.R.C. There was indeed united purpose of heart with these three men.

A.L.O. Is purpose of heart a thing that is taken

up individually between us and the blessed God, apart from the brethren?

G.R.C. I think we have individually to arrive at this resolve; but then all moving in company with the Spirit would arrive at the same resolve; so that Paul says, "I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ" -- which involves the testimonial position -- "that ye be perfectly united in the same mind and in the same opinion", 1 Corinthians 1:10. It does not commend the Lord and His name at all if the brethren are not one. So that we have here, "But if not, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods" -- the language is so definite -- "nor worship the golden image that thou hast set up". They had already received light from God that there is no authority except from God and that the authority existing had been set up by God, and yet they had not the slightest doubt where the point came at which obedience to the authority, although set up by God, could no longer be carried out.

D.McI. They say, "our God whom we serve". Is that basic to spiritual manhood?

G.R.C. It is. "Our God whom we serve" involves our bodies. Nebuchadnezzar took account of their bodies -- verse 28 -- but the fact that they yielded their bodies sacrificially at this point was because they had already yielded them to God for His service. Romans 12 comes before Romans 13. Romans 12:1 is the great basic matter, "I beseech you, therefore, brethren, by the compassions of God, to present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your intelligent service". So they say, "our God whom we serve". Their bodies were already devoted to God, His claims were paramount, and the very fact that they knew that the monarch before whom they stood had received his authority from God and was responsible to God for the way he used it, would only strengthen their

position before him, just as it strengthens ours. Romans 13 says, "there is no authority except from God; and those that exist are set up by God. So that he that sets himself in opposition to the authority resists the ordinance of God", verses 1, 2. These men were not resisting the authority, they were recognising it, for they did not rebel. There was nothing rebellious in what they said. But the very fact that they knew the authority was set up by God and that Nebuchadnezzar was responsible to God, and that in judgment-day he would have to answer to God for the way he used his authority, only strengthened their position before him. They knew they were before a man who had received his authority from, and was responsible to, their God whom they served. He had set up another god and was thus abusing his authority; but the God who had given him authority was their God and they were His direct representatives to maintain His rights before the very man to whom He had given authority.

A.H. Does what you just remarked give force to verse 16, "We have no need to answer thee in this matter"? It was apparent that delegated authority was running athwart absolute authority.

G.R.C. Nebuchadnezzar had said, "Who is the God that shall deliver you out of my hands?" He was challenging the very God who had given him authority.

W.S.S. Is it important that up to this point they had carried out Nebuchadnezzar's commands? They were administering the province of Babylon where the image was set up, and, no doubt, they carried out his wishes up to the point at which they must stop.

G.R.C. And we have to know the point at which we must stop. I was greatly helped in 1916 by a brother who said that the believer is always to be subject to those in authority, but he cannot always

obey. There is a difference between being subject and obeying. Being subject is an attitude of soul and spirit. The believer is not a rebel, he acknowledges the man before whom he may have to appear as having authority delegated by God, and therefore he respects him as such, and is subject in his spirit; but he has to tell him at what point he can no longer obey. Unqualified obedience, on the part of a believer, is due to God alone.

J.M. The Lord Jesus said, "Fear not those who kill the body and after this have no more that they can do", Luke 12:4, but urged that God is to be feared. Do you think there should be a distinct testimony to the fear of God before the authorities?

G.R.C. Yes. And it is because of that that the believer always wins the battle. The believer is always triumphant if he is with God, because the greatest punishment that the delegated authority can inflict is to kill the body; after that he has no more that he can do. But the believer stands before him in the power of the Spirit, which involves the power of resurrection. It is interesting to note that God's disclosure of Himself as the Almighty God to Abraham did not stand related to circumstances. We are apt to think of God as Almighty in relation to our circumstances. True, He delivered these men. But that is not the way Abraham learned God as Almighty, is it?

J.M. Do you mean he learnt Him as the God of resurrection?

G.R.C. Yes. He learned God as Almighty in his own body. He learned God as the One who quickens the dead. He quickened Abraham's body, and He quickened Sarah's body. That was a physical matter, but nevertheless it is a lesson for us. Abraham learned the almighty power of God in himself, and that involves, for us, the gift of the Spirit. The covenant of circumcision involves for us the gift of

the Holy Spirit, and it is in connection with that covenant that God says, "I am the Almighty God: walk before my face, and be perfect", Genesis 17:1. To walk before God's face and be perfect in the face of a hostile world requires almighty power, and God has given us that in the Spirit. We are indwelt by the Spirit of God and greater is He that is in us than he that is in the world.

J.J.T. Peter and John before the sanhedrim say, "If it be righteous before God to listen to you rather than to God, judge ye", Acts 4:19; he makes it a matter of righteousness.

G.R.C. And that is just what it is. According to Romans 6:13 we are expected to yield ourselves to God, as alive from among the dead and our members as instruments of righteousness to God. In Romans 12:1, 2, we are besought to present our bodies to God as a living sacrifice. Romans 13:1 in no wise sets aside Romans 6 and Romans 12.

O.E. Would you say that while you may not always expect physical deliverance, you may always expect the help and support set forth in the fourth man -- verse 25 -- so that they were able to walk in His company in the midst of the intensified heat.

G.R.C. I am sure that is right. We can count on the Lord being with us. Paul said, "the Lord stood with me, and gave me power", 2 Timothy 4:17. But I think we should take account also of the might of God working in the believer. The Almighty God should be known to us through the conscious power of the Spirit in us.

H.W. Abraham was ninety-nine years of age when Jehovah appeared to him, emphasising the power that he realized in his body.

G.R.C. The quickening was a physical matter with Abraham, but with us it is a spiritual matter. We are victorious in the presence of those who have power to kill the body, not only because we are

looking on to actual resurrection, but because we are conscious of the almighty power of God in us at the present time -- the quickening power of the Spirit. It speaks in Ephesians of "the surpassing greatness of his power towards us who believe, according to the working of the might of his strength, in which he wrought in the Christ in raising him from among the dead", Ephesians 1:19, 20. Now that power is to usward, it is operating in the Christian even as he stands before authorities, and it makes him entirely superior in spiritual might to everything that he may have to face.

R.G.B. In Peter it says of one reproached in the name of Christ that "the Spirit of glory and the Spirit of God rests upon" him -- 1 Peter 4:14 -- suggesting a committal of the Spirit to the believer, as reproached, so that he is consciously and evidently victorious.

G.R.C. That brings in an additional idea contingent upon the other. As we are conscious of the mighty quickening power of the Spirit in us, we can stand in such a manner that the Spirit is pleased to rest manifestly upon us, the Spirit of glory and of God, so that the public testimonial position is carried through in moral glory, grace and dignity, and that, in principle, marked these men. There was far greater dignity with them than with the monarch.

W.S.S. It says "we who live are always delivered unto death on account of Jesus, that the life also of Jesus may be manifested in our mortal flesh", 2 Corinthians 4:11. Were not these men delivered unto death?

G.R.C. Quite so. The life of Jesus is manifested in such through the almighty power of God in the Spirit.

H.F.R. Does that come out in Stephen. He seems to be a pattern martyr, and the evidence of the work of God in him comes out in a most remarkable way.

G.R.C. It does. He was filled with the Holy Spirit, and the Spirit of glory and of God rested upon him.

W.R. You have referred to Romans 12 as to the presenting of our bodies. It follows on there, "be not conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind".

G.R.C. We could not take this attitude apart from the renewing of our minds. It is thus also that the Spirit gives us oneness of mind. These three young men were united; there was no divergence of thought. But then there is the quickening power of the Spirit in the soul.

J.M. What would you say as to Romans 8:10, 11, "If Christ be in you, the body is dead on account of sin, but the Spirit life on account of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that has raised up Jesus from among the dead dwell in you, he that has raised up Christ from among the dead shall quicken your mortal bodies also on account of his Spirit which dwells in you".

G.R.C. That bears on it. The Spirit is life in the believer in view of righteousness. Then think of "the Spirit of him that has raised up Jesus from among the dead" dwelling in us! Who can stand against that?

A.B. As standing before the king and the king's threats, these young men do not leave their future with the king, but in God's hands, and, in bringing in deliverance, He would have in mind the continuance of the testimony in such persons.

G.R.C. That is important. It is necessary for young men to learn to have confidence in God, to leave their future in His hands, and to make a bold uncompromising stand for the truth. God will care for the future. The Almighty God is referred to in 2 Corinthians 6:18 in connection with circumstances, "Ye shall be to me for sons and daughters, saith the

Lord Almighty". We have the Almighty God as our Father to care for us in our circumstances, but what will make it easy to trust Him in our circumstances will be the consciousness of His almighty power operating in our own souls.

S.R-s. We have in Romans 8:31 that God is for us; then, at the end, the consciousness that nothing shall "separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord".

G.R.C. Paul says, "I am persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord", verses 38, 39. What gave him that persuasion? Surely the consciousness of the almighty power of God operating in himself, as indwelt by the Spirit.

F.W.T. Does Paul illustrate that before Agrippa when he says, "Having therefore met with the help which is from God, I have stood firm unto this day", Acts 26:22? It was not only help circumstantially, but specially the help of the Holy Spirit experienced inwardly. In result a right subjective state marked the apostle, for he addressed Festus as "most excellent Festus" -- Acts 26:25 -- although Festus was making wrong accusations against him.

G.R.C. That chapter, like this, shows that if God's direct representatives are truly with Him they are in every way superior to the authorities before whom they appear. They are superior morally and in spiritual dignity and might. They have spiritual might which exceeds the might which God has committed to the authority.

A.E.M. Would there be a moral reason why the fire did not touch them? There was nothing for the fire to do in them.

G.R.C. That is very good, and very searching.

Even their garments were not touched, suggesting that all their habits of life were pleasing to God.

F.W.K. Is Paul's outlook in line with that in 2 Corinthians 1 when he says, "We ourselves had the sentence of death in ourselves", and he goes on to speak of the God who raises the dead and who would yet deliver them -- verses 9, 10?

G.R.C. As that epistle proceeds he makes it clear that there was nothing in the ministers to call for the action of the fire upon them. In chapter 6 he speaks of the way they conducted themselves that the ministry might not be blamed. Their garments -- everything about them -- were in keeping with the truth. That is very important. If we are to experience God's power in testimony we must see to it that we are marked by the holiness proper to God's house.

F.P.S. Is that why the Tribunals recognise the position rather than the individuals?

G.R.C. There is a danger in that. It is possible now for young men in this country to take up the provision for conscience lightly, because the position has been won for them by others for whom it was no light matter. The fact that the conscience question has become urgent in France, and has involved a measure of martyrdom, should affect young men in this country, and help them to understand that it is not a light matter at all. It should not be regarded just as a matter of course. If it is so regarded, we may experience a change of times or seasons. God may come in in a disciplinary way and the young men in this country may yet be called upon to suffer.

E.C.M. Can you help us more as to the companionship of the Son of God with these three young men in suffering?

G.R.C. The suffering must have been well worth while in order to have that companionship.

S.H. In Acts 14 the disciples encircle Paul after he had been drawn out of the city as dead. These

young disciples were thus committed to death in relation to the testimony.

A.E.M. I think you were going to say more about the question of the position versus the conscience. Every individual must establish that he has a conscience before God. Being instructed in the light of the assembly, we should all be alike.

G.R.C. You mean this cannot be taken up as though it were a tenet of a certain sect?

A.E.M. Yes. We have known young men who have gone into the army as conscientious objectors who were not really in heart with the brethren.

G.R.C. That is a very solemn thing. Every young brother must necessarily have to do with God personally in this matter. That is the individual side. But then, as you say, if each is amenable to divine instruction, the young men thus truly exercised before God will find themselves in unity of mind. The Spirit of God has not two minds. They will be perfectly united in the same mind and the same opinion and thus will be able to stand together. Their exercise with God will ensure that their garments are in keeping with the position they take up.

A.L.O. Would it be right for anyone to take advantage of the position without having to do with God in his own soul?

G.R.C. Young men of the type Mr. M. has referred to bring great discredit upon the testimony. It is really a shame that such should take advantage of a position that has been won at much cost. There is an element of baseness in it.

A.C.S.P. Whereas the constant repetition of the names of these three young men would show the delight God had in men who were inwardly strong and outwardly glorious in the testimony.

A.W.P. Paul refers to those who had "obeyed from the heart the form of teaching into which ye

were instructed", Romans 6:17. Is that basic to what is now engaging us?

G.R.C. I am sure it is. There has been much instruction on this line. During the Lord's final teaching in the temple, as recorded in the gospels, all kinds of questions were raised, mostly by opposers, and they were answered. It is prophetic of the teaching in the temple in these last days. All kinds of questions have been raised among the brethren, many by opposers, but every question has been answered in the temple, and light has continually increased. One of the questions put to the Lord was, "Is it lawful for us to give tribute to Caesar, or not?" Luke 20:22. This question has had a prominent place in the revival. The Lord's answer was, "Show me a denarius. Whose image and superscription has it? And answering they said, Caesar's. And he said to them, Pay therefore what is Caesar's to Caesar, and what is God's to God" -- an answer so telling and so full of meaning that it covers the whole ground of a Christian's relations with those in authority. There is special importance in the question, "Whose image and superscription has it?" Man was created in God's image, and therefore the only image and superscription that the believer can bear is that of God. He does not belong to the authorities, he belongs to God and is sent into the world to represent God, and therefore he cannot carry arms. A believer carrying arms would not be expressive of God, the image and superscription of God would be missing, and therefore on the point of carrying arms a believer must obey God rather than men.

A.J.G. That was seen in the four young men in this book. All their original names end with either 'El' or 'Jah'. The eunuch gave them all Babylonish names. The Spirit of God takes on those names as regards three of them, but at the same time the

men themselves stand true to their names as having the superscription of God upon them.

G.R.C. That is very good.

R.G.B. They are described by Nebuchadnezzar as servants of the Most High God. I wondered if that stressed how the testimonial matter enters into this. The name of God was borne publicly by these men and Nebuchadnezzar recognised it.

G.R.C. Nebuchadnezzar had had to admit in the previous chapter that Daniel's God was the God of gods, and the Lord of kings, and in this chapter these three young men speak of Him as "our God". The God of gods, and the Lord of kings was the God whom they served, and His claim could not be over-ridden by any claim the authorities might make. According to Romans 13 we must be subject to them but there are times when we have to tell them, in all subjection, that we cannot obey.

A.G.B. Would you say something as to the great principle of idolatry which seems to be used to rival the place that the Most High God should have in the minds and consciences of men? I was thinking of John's word, "He is the true God and eternal life".

G.R.C. The Gentile monarchies have abused their power by idolatry. They arrogate to themselves the power that God has given them and thus become an object to themselves. And so idolatry has marked all four empires. Young people can be carried away by the pomp and glory of imperial power.

W.S.S. Is not Nebuchadnezzar's image a challenge to the Son of God?

G.R.C. No doubt, because Christ is the image of God. Indeed He is the true God and eternal life.

J.McK. While God is identified with those who are in the testimony, in chapter 3 it is the God of these three men, but in chapter 6, after referring to the God of Daniel, the king goes on to speak of God's kingdom, "his kingdom that which shall not be

destroyed, and his dominion shall be even unto the end". Does Daniel himself form a kind of basis for these words in the mouth of the king?

G.R.C. I think so. And I think it is prophetic of what will happen in the last days. The Jewish remnant that stand true in the last phase of the beast's power will be delivered by God, and, in result, Gentile rulers will be brought to acknowledge God as the Most High.

J.McK. Do you think, as applied to us, chapter 3 is more the objective support of Christ, but chapter 6 more the character of the kingdom as known in the Spirit? It is interesting that the words the king uses almost agree with those in chapter 2, as regards the kingdom.

G.R.C. In the days of those kings God would set up a kingdom.

J.McK. And now it comes to be identified with saints such as Daniel.

G.R.C. Very good. We should now consider Daniel. He was an aged man, and he was not only recognising God's rights over his body like the three young men of chapter 3, but also cherishing the whole truth of the assembly. "His windows being open in his upper chamber toward Jerusalem, he kneeled on his knees three times a day", and nothing would prevent him doing that.

J.C.T. "The power which works in us", in Ephesians 3, is linked with glory to God in the assembly. The great image in chapter 3 would suggest the greatness of man as seen in the Babylonish system. The greatness of God, the glory of God shining in the assembly, is over against that.

G.R.C. Quite so. The enemy's attack in chapter 6 is very serious, for it is against the truth of the assembly. It was a conspiracy. It was not simply

the king himself doing something as in chapter 3, but a great conspiracy was on foot against the man who had the assembly in his heart. It says in verse 11, "those men came in a body, and found Daniel praying and making supplication before his God", and in verse 15, "Then these men came in a body unto the king, and said unto the king ..." They were a body of men utterly opposed to the truth and the one standing for it, forcing the king's hand against his will. They find their modern counterpart in trade associations and professional and trade unions, bodies of men who endeavour to influence or intimidate those in authority. The enemy's aim is to secure the enforcement of the 'closed shop' principle by those in authority in order, if it were possible, to destroy all practical expression of the universal fellowship of God's Son, and thus all true assembly response and service.

F.S. Is that why, in the first case, there was rage and fury with the king, but in the second he was sore distressed? Really Darius's hand was forced.

G.R.C. Exactly. In this country the government acts on our behalf. Whatever its political colour it has always been against the 'closed shop'. But these men come in a body and would force the hand of the government if they could. In mercy it has not yet been permitted in this country and we ought to pray to God to strengthen those in authority against such influences. In Australia and America such bodies have succeeded in influencing the government.

E.C.M. Daniel cherished God's chief interest -- Jerusalem. The Psalmist says, "Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee", Psalm 122:6. It says at the end, "This Daniel prospered".

G.R.C. I think we need to see that the first attack

-- chapter 3 -- was against God and Christ His image, and the issue was clear. But the attack in chapter 6 was, typically, against the assembly. Here was a man, Daniel, who was holding, typically, the whole truth of the assembly and was not prepared to surrender it, and these men come in a body to bring about his destruction. And that is the position as regards the trade union movement, trade associations, etc. They endeavour to compel the brethren to be unfaithful to the truth of the holy fellowship and thus to the truth of the assembly; and, in order to compel the brethren, they would coerce the government if they could. We need to be in prayer that God would help the government, even as He helped Darius. According to chapter 11: 1, the heavenly personage visiting Daniel said, "In the first year of Darius the Mede, I stood to confirm and to strengthen him". This heavenly personage was sent to confirm and strengthen the very king of chapter 6 in the first year of his reign, and so we ought to pray that God would send heavenly help to those in authority to do what is right in this matter, because they know what is right. Those in authority know well enough that they ought not to give way to unions and associations. They know that, if they do give way, they are abdicating their powers and responsibilities.

H.J.M. The law of the Medes and Persians could not be changed, but, as a result of Daniel's faithfulness, in fact it was changed.

G.R.C. That would remind us again of chapter 3. There Nebuchadnezzar says of the three men, "who changed the king's word", showing that, if we are faithful and make a stand, the king's word can be changed, the law can be changed. According to chapter 6, the law of the Medes and Persians could not be revoked, and, of course, it was carried out in

Daniel's case, for he was cast into the den of lions. The law did not say the lions were to destroy him, but that such as he were to be cast into the den, and so he suffered the full penalty, and yet God saved his life. But after that there was a new decree, "I make a decree, That in every dominion of my kingdom men tremble and fear before the God of Daniel".

What a great triumph in testimony!

THE TIMES OF THE NATIONS (4)

Daniel 9:1 - 7, 17 - 27; Daniel 12

G.R.C. We have a good deal of ground to cover in this reading, as the Spirit of God may help us. There is the important matter of confession -- - but I am not proposing that we should be detained unduly on that, for one trusts we all recognise its importance; then there is the implied allusion to the sabbath in chapter 9: 2, the evening oblation, verse 21, and finally, the desolater, verse 27, and the great results which flow to God as a result of the discipline inflicted by the desolator's activities, as indicated in chapter 12, where God secures the wise who "shine as the brightness of the expanse". God's ways in permitting desolations through the ages are thus justified by the results. Chapter 9: 26 alludes to the destruction of Jerusalem in the year A.D. 70, "the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary". From that time onwards -- including this dispensation -- there are desolations: "and the end thereof shall be with an overflow, and unto the end, war -- the desolations determined". Then verse 27 refers to the last and most severe phase, "and because of the protection of abominations there shall be a desolator".

A.J.G. Would you say what you have in mind in referring to 'sabbath'?

G.R.C. Chapter 9 begins, "I Daniel understood by the books that the number of the years, whereof the word of Jehovah came to Jeremiah the prophet, for the accomplishment of the desolations of Jerusalem, was seventy years". They were the desolations current at that time. Those we have been referring to are those which follow the rejection of Christ. It distressed Daniel very much to learn that there were

still more and worse desolations to come. He had had some experience of the desolations of those seventy years. They were ordered by God because the land had not kept its sabbaths, as we are told in Leviticus 26:34, 43, and 2 Chronicles 36:21. For four hundred and ninety years the land had not kept the sabbatical years, and God decreed that it should be desolate for seventy years to enjoy its sabbaths. "Then shall the land enjoy its sabbaths all the days of the desolation, when ye are in your enemies' land; then shall the land rest, and enjoy its sabbaths ... For the land shall be left by them, and shall enjoy its sabbaths, when it is in desolation without them; and they shall accept the punishment of their iniquity", Leviticus 26:34, 43. That is confirmed at the end of Chronicles when the captivity actually commenced. So that the idea of sabbath would be borne in upon Daniel's mind and the seventy weeks of verse 24 would continue to keep that matter before him. There had been seventy weeks of years in which the sabbatical years had been neglected and, on account of it, they were in captivity seventy years. But then he learns that there would be another seventy weeks of years, "Seventy weeks are apportioned out upon thy people and upon thy holy city"; and, for one who loved God, it would be a matter of great distress to think that, for another seventy weeks of years, God would still be deprived of His sabbaths. But the vision looks on to the great sabbath in what is said immediately following, "to close the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make expiation for iniquity, and to bring in the righteousness of the ages, and to seal the vision and prophet, and to anoint the holy of holies". When those events occur, the great sabbatism on earth will commence. So the final word to Daniel in the book is, "But do thou go thy way until the end; and thou shalt rest" -- that is, when God would rest

he would have his rest -- "and stand in thy lot at the end of the days".

A.B. Does the idea of the sabbath convey the thought of God's people resting with Him and according Him restful conditions as being in communion with Him?

G.R.C. I am sure that is right. The sabbath was the great sign of the covenant. It was, in away, the great end of all things that the people should rest before God and God have His rest in them. They were, undistractedly, to be for God and His pleasure, and to enjoy their portion in God. One would judge that the full thought of the sabbath is brought out after Moses is given the instruction as to the tabernacle system. After all the instruction as to the tabernacle, the great anointed system, is complete, then immediately after speaking of the anointing of it, the final word in Exodus 31:12 - 17 is, "Jehovah spoke to Moses, saying, And thou, speak thou unto the children of Israel, saying, Surely my sabbaths shall ye keep ... and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed". That word, "and was refreshed" is an added thought and may indicate that the rest of God in Genesis was only provisional. His true rest awaits the final completion of all His work, both in the assembly and in His earthly people. When that is completed He will rest and be refreshed.

J.McK. Does it stress the enormity of idolatry that this matter of the sabbath which had just been communicated by Jehovah to Moses should be intruded upon? It is at this point that the enemy brings in this assault of idolatry; and then, when the position has been dealt with, Jehovah resumes instruction as to the sabbath.

G.R.C. You are referring now to Exodus 32, the golden calf?

J.McK. Yes; and then proceeding on to the beginning of chapter 35, "These are the things which

Jehovah has commanded, to do them. Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you a holy day, a sabbath of rest to Jehovah".

G.R.C. That is remarkable. At the end of all the instructions relative to the anointed system, the sabbath and its refreshment is stressed; and then, after the idolatry, and before they begin the actual work, the sabbath again is stressed, as though it is to remind them that that is the great end in view. God will rest in a fragrant anointed system including heaven and earth.

W.C. Does the standing in thy lot at the end of days refer to Daniel's inheritance? I was thinking of Psalm 16, "Jehovah is the portion of mine inheritance and of my cup", verse 5. Is the gathering up of the way God has become known in all these experiences, the portion of Daniel -- everything completed, and then the enjoyment in rest of God Himself?

G.R.C. That is very good. "Thou maintainest my lot", it says in that psalm. So that Daniel's lot is assured; he could go in peace of mind because he would rest when God rested and stand in his lot at the end of the days. His lot will be a wonderful one because he belongs to a heavenly company; but how much more ours?

W.C. Quite so. Our lot is described in Ephesians, "blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies in Christ".

H.F.R. Would Daniel's distress at these desolations help us to feel the present condition of the church publicly and encourage us in that the inheritance is laid up for such who feel it?

G.R.C. It would. God cannot rest in a scene of desolation. He has granted us a little reviving; assembly features have again appeared so that there is something concrete now in answer to the confession and supplication which those who have gone before

us have made. The Lord will maintain in some, few though they may be, Philadelphian features until the end. Thus God can anticipate His rest and we with Him; but then we have to look right on. While we can anticipate it, the actuality is future.

H.F.R. Do you not think the present enjoyment of it would help us to look right on to the full thought?

G.R.C. I think so.

W.S.S. Is your thought that by the help of scriptures, such as we are reading, and the books, as Daniel says, we should be made intelligent as to the way in which God is going to reach His rest? Great events are to take place, very solemn events. All have in mind bringing about a condition in which God will be able to rest and we rest with Him.

G.R.C. Meantime we should feel things intensely with God. Daniel would feel intensely the way God had already lost seventy sabbatical years during the previous seventy weeks of years -- 490 years -- and now He was to lose another seventy sabbatical years during the seventy weeks -- 490 years -- which were to come. Another seventy sabbatical years were to be denied God before the final great sabbath would be ushered in.

W.J. So that Daniel is among those who love Him, in verse 4, and also the love is responded to in, "O Daniel, man greatly beloved". It is a love matter, is it not?

G.R.C. It is. The attitude Daniel took up could not be taken up by any but a lover of God. Daniel was a great lover of God. He calls Him, "my God", and he owned the rights of God over him fully, because the title 'Lord' he used about ten times in his prayer is the word 'Adonai'. It is the suitable title to use when confessing sins, because it is a word which conveys God's absolute rights over His people. All those rights had been flouted. He begins the

supplication, however, by saying, "Alas, Adonai! the great and terrible El". He himself had proved Him as 'El', as we have seen earlier in the book. His name Daniel implies it. 'El' is the One who alone stands in His own strength but who gives strength and might to His people.

W.S.S. Three times it says of Daniel that he was greatly beloved. The communications in this book are made to one greatly beloved, and in the Revelation to one who is called "the disciple whom Jesus loved".

G.R.C. Both these men, Daniel and John, were great lovers because they knew the love of God themselves. They were also so with God in thought and feeling that they were greatly beloved.

D.McI. Would that help us to understand God's thoughts as to the desolator?

G.R.C. I think we should take note of the fact that once Daniel is apprised of the coming of the desolator it becomes his main concern. In chapter 7 he sees the end of the Roman empire, in which evil heads up; but in chapter 8 he gets another vision, dealing with another little horn, not connected with the Roman empire but with a branch of the Grecian empire. He sees a vision about the kings of Media and Persia and the king of Greece; chapter 8: 20, 21. Those two empires are symbolised in that chapter under the figure of useful domestic animals, not under the figure of wild beasts, as in chapter 7. These are the two powers that God particularly used to achieve His ends, the Persian power to favour His people and the Grecian power as a scourge to discipline His people. Out of the Grecian power there arises the little horn of chapter 8, which we usually refer to as the "king of the north"; and he, all down the ages, but especially at the end, is reserved by God as a desolator to accomplish God's indignation and

discipline, but, withal, to achieve His own ends in purity and refinement amongst His people.

A.J.G. I was going to remark that the end is purification, and being made white, and refinement.

G.R.C. That is right. "Many shall be purified and be made white, and be refined", chapter 12: 10.

W.H. Would the idea of the desolator enter into present conditions at all? The assembly publicly is broken up into a hundred parts or more.

G.R.C. I am sure it does. There is the desolation of the break-up of the assembly, which we should ever mourn about; and then, in addition, in a political sense, God brings in the desolator. We have had an experience of it in the last two world wars. They were actings of God of that nature, God causing desolations. Both these wars were conducted by powers which have the character of the king of the north and were used as a scourge by God to achieve His own ends. And, of course, the threatening cloud of the king of the north still hangs over the western world; the desolator is still there, and very much there.

A.J.G. Is not the assembly the great matter of interest that God has constantly before Him, and can we not count on Him, if we are set to go on with the truth of the assembly, to keep things in check?

G.R.C. I am sure we can. As we were saying yesterday, the brass represents the desolating power in the image of Nebuchadnezzar. It is that feature of power which God uses for discipline and it finds its final expression in the king of the north who, in principle, is existing today. But I feel that, during the time of the assembly's sojourn here, great things can be done through the intercession of the saints. Things are not arbitrarily fixed during this dispensation. We have little conception of what a great part we can play in this matter through confiding and

intelligent intercourse with God. Do you think that is right?

A.J.G. I do. I Was just thinking of Isaiah 62:6, 7, "I have set watchmen upon thy walls, Jerusalem; all the day and all the night they shall never hold their peace: ye that put Jehovah in remembrance, keep not silence, and give him no rest, till he establish, and till he make Jerusalem a praise in the earth". Is that not true in regard of the concrete answer to the truth of the assembly at the present time?

G.R.C. I think so. I believe the Spirit of God would stimulate us as to intercession on this line. God moves governmentally and spiritually in answer to the intelligent supplications of His people.

A.H. In that connection would you say a word as to the spirit of Daniel's prayer and the extraordinary way in which he identifies himself humbly with the failure, and seems thereby to secure power with God? See verses 4, 13 and 20.

G.R.C. He prayed with fasting and sackcloth and ashes -- features we might well take on. Sackcloth is suitable attire in view of the public breakdown and our part in it.

J.J.T. In his prayer he refers to "thy city and thy people", and then the word to him is "thy people" and "thy holy city", as though God would connect Daniel with the city and the people.

G.R.C. That is very sweet. God is not yet prepared to own the people or the city as His, and yet it is implied in the fact that He calls the city 'holy'. God has not really given it up but He puts the matter back on to Daniel. It is "thy people" and "thy holy city", and that would enforce the idea that holy obligations of love are laid upon us.

A.S.C.P. In connection with intercession, would you say how the service of angels may come into God's operations with the nations? J.T. referred to

their service a good many times in his closing ministry.

G.R.C. This book helps us as to that. There is the verse referred to this morning, "And I, in the first year of Darius the Mede, I stood to confirm and to strengthen him", chapter 11: 1. It may be Daniel had been praying for the king; for this prayer and confession, in chapter 9, is in the first year of Darius -- see chapter 9: 1. But whether or not the angel's intervention was the result of Daniel's supplications, it would encourage us to pray, because it shows what is happening behind the scenes. Who would have thought that God would have sent so great and glorious a being to strengthen Darius the Mede and to establish him in his kingdom? He was intimidated for a time by the body of men, but we can see what lay behind the strength which marked him after that incident was over, in sending out the decree that all nations should fear and tremble before the God of Daniel in every dominion of his kingdom, and in his recognition of God's kingdom here in His people. Governments know that it is wrong to give way to bodies of men but they are afraid, they do not know what to do. It is essential, therefore, that the saints should pray. God is able to send an angel and strengthen the government against the pressure of unions and associations.

F.P.S. "I am come because of thy words", chapter 10: 12.

G.R.C. Quite so. Heaven was moving in answer to Daniel's supplications.

S.R. Do we need stimulation in relation to our prayer meetings, giving them a greater dignity?

G.R.C. Very much so. Prayer meetings tend to become repetitive and formal. We know we ought to pray for kings and all in dignity, and it may be done in a formal way; but that is not supplication nor intercession.

H.G.H. What is the relation between confession

and prayer? In verse 4, "I prayed unto Jehovah my God, and made my confession". Should confession come into our prayer meetings?

G.R.C. I think so. We ought to feel our sins and the sins of Christendom, and, if we are praying much for revival and the perfecting of assembly features, such prayer should surely be accompanied with confession as to the general state of things.

W.S.S. We should identify ourselves with the breakdown, as Daniel did.

G.R.C. Quite so. All this bears on the evening oblation, in verse 21. It raises the question as to how much we observe the morning and evening oblation; these are not matters for the prayer-meeting only.

W.S.S. Perhaps you would open that up for us.

G.R.C. Well, how do we begin the day?

W.S.S. The thought is that we begin with God, is it not?

G.R.C. Yes, but at which altar -- the family altar or the personal altar?

W.S.S. I would suppose the personal comes first and the family next.

G.R.C. I do not think either come first. We should begin at God's altar; that is where the morning oblation is offered. How many of us begin at the altar of God?

W.S.S. Do you mean the recognition of what is due to God and the glory of His name?

G.R.C. Not only that. You are at the entrance of the tent of meeting in your spirit and you are looking out on the whole of God's habitation on earth, His vast habitation in the Spirit, stretching to the furthermost corners of the earth. You are not thinking of yourself nor of your own house, but of God's house where He has put His name. But you are thinking of it as in the conscious sense of an unchanging acceptance -- the continual burnt offering.

You are free to draw near to God with reference to His house and His name, in spite of failure, because nothing ever changes the perfect acceptance in which the saints are before God nor the perfect basis upon which His house has been established. Both rest upon the Person and completed work of Christ. We are in all the acceptance of the One who has glorified God, and God never views the saints on a lower level, whatever may be the conditions here. So that there is every encouragement to begin the day at God's altar in relation to His habitation; indeed, our privilege, first of all, is to enter the Holy of Holies, having boldness to do so by the blood of Jesus, and then to serve at both altars.

E.C.M. Do you mean that the end is to correspond with the beginning, in the evening oblation? We are to be equal to things spiritually at the end?

G.R.C. The evening oblation is most important. It is really the end and the beginning; it is between the two evenings; Exodus 29:41. It is thus at the end of the active part of one day and at the beginning of the next day; the day begins in the evening. At the evening oblation the active day is over. The Lord said, "Are there not twelve hours in the day?" John 11:9. He was referring to the active part of the day which ended at sundown. So you can review the active part of one day in the light of God's name and His habitation, and then begin the new day in the freshness of communion resulting from the evening oblation. The first part of the day is the meditative part, the night watches. That is why the evening oblation is so important. It prepares us to take full advantage of the meditative part of the day, which comes before the active part.

W.S.S. Would the word in Psalm 139:18 be applicable, "When I awake, I am still with thee"?

G.R.C. That would refer to the morning. It is an important matter to begin aright the active part

of the day, that is, to commence with the morning oblation.

F.W.K. Would you say a word as to the so-called Lord's prayer? "Father, thy name be hallowed; thy kingdom come", Luke 11:2.

G.R.C. The order is right, is it not? Our needs are secondary. But I feel it is of the greatest importance, if we are to make spiritual progress individually and collectively, and to develop assembly features, to habituate ourselves to entering the holiest and to serving at the altars of God. Let us offer incense to His name and a pure oblation, for both altars were to function continually -- see Exodus 29:42; chapter 30: 8. Let us pour out our supplications relative to His house and His interests and then afterwards we can think of our houses and our individual needs. We shall find then that our household matters and our individual needs will be seen in their right proportion. If we begin with those they loom large before us, and God's interests have little or no place; but if we begin at God's altars we shall find that our side of things is very simple and straightforward. Our business is to hold our houses relative to God's house, and, as we do so, He will supply all our needs.

A.E.M. Would you explain for the benefit of the young that we are always in the house of God, whether we are in the meeting or not?

G.R.C. It is very important to recognise that. We are always in the house of God; thus our first waking thoughts in the morning should be those of priests. The priests encamped near the entrance of the tent of meeting. The sunrise was on one side of them -- the hope of the Lord's coming -- and the habitation of God on the other.

H.R. Is that how Daniel prayed, with his window open towards Jerusalem?

G.R.C. You could not imagine, when Daniel kneeled on his knees three times a day, that he began

by asking God about his personal needs and household needs. He did not begin that way at all. He began about Jerusalem. I do not suppose his personal and household needs occupied much time.

H.F.R. Would you say a little more as to the meditative part of the day preceding the active part?

G.R.C. The evening oblation is stressed more in Scripture than the morning. It is between the two evenings, so that it affords the suitable end according to God of the active part of one day, when we can review our activities and how they have affected God's name and God's house; and, at the same time, it prepares us and sets us at rest for the meditative part of the new day just beginning. "Between the two evenings" -- sundown in the east -- might suggest for us the close of the active day; not just before retiring to bed for it is too late then.

A.G.B. Would you say why the expression 'oblation' is used? Does it not bear on the burnt offering morning and evening?

G.R.C. Here, as in other passages, such as Malachi 1:11, 13, the oblation includes the whole offering, that is, the burnt offering with its accompanying meat offering and drink offering.

A.G.B. Did not the accompanying meat offering become the food of the priest?

G.R.C. It did. And the drink offering, which was poured out in the sanctuary, means that the oblation will end with the expression of deep spiritual feelings towards God.

G.H.S.P. Is it striking that in Luke 21, where the Lord speaks about the times of the nations, the chapter finishes with a reference to the Lord going out by night to the mount of Olives, and then coming very early in the morning to teach again?

G.R.C. That is very interesting. The mount of Olives is suggestive as to the meditative part of the day.

S.H. In regard to the activities of the day being reviewed, does Ezra 9 bear on our enquiry? The unfaithfulness of the people and the priests and the Levites is referred to. The activities of the day had produced that, and Ezra sat overwhelmed until the time of the evening oblation. Then he rose up and, in his review, he speaks of the desolations, but in view of a new beginning.

G.R.C. I believe if we practice the morning and evening oblation, which is priestly activity, it will greatly energise us both as Levites and as soldiers. The priests were nearest to the tabernacle in their encampment; then around the tabernacle and, the priests were the Levites, and around the Levites were the military. The priestly exercise of the morning and evening oblation will energise us to orient our households in relation to the tabernacle in these three settings -- priestly, levitical and military.

J.M. Is there a dispensational application in connection with the evening oblation?

G.R.C. I think there may be. But one is bringing forward the practical daily matter because, speaking for oneself, it has been neglected for many years.

S.R. The psalmist says, "Then will I go unto the altar of God, unto the God of the gladness of my joy: yea, upon the harp will I praise thee, O God, my God", Psalm 43:4. There is the thought of approaching the altar and then deep feelings.

D.McI. As to the evening oblation, is it a personal or a household matter?

G.R.C. The great thing to remember is that I am a priest, and that my house is set in priestly relation to the tabernacle of witness; therefore, whether I approach God personally, or as head of my house, the matter of prime importance is to serve as a priest at God's altars. I can then speak to Him about household and personal needs, and, in the light of

His vast interests, these will assume simple proportions. The great thing is that my household and personal matters should be regulated in relation to Him and His house.

W.S.S. So the first thing is necessarily God Himself.

G.R.C. It is God Himself, but God in relation to His house. How much thought do we give, first thing in the morning and again in the evening when activities are over, to the habitation of God in the Spirit where He has placed His name, stretching out to the uttermost corners of the earth? Are we thinking of the whole thing as it is before Him?

W.S.S. Your earlier remark about the tabernacle would be worth repeating. The first thing that was seen when they arose in the morning was the tabernacle. Had you in mind the house of God typically?

G.R.C. The priests were encamped on the east side of the tabernacle; they were the nearest to it. Thus two things would occupy their waking thoughts -- the sun rising, that is, the Lord's coming, on the one hand, and the habitation of God in the Spirit, on the other.

W.S.S. But then, would not all the people see the tabernacle as they opened the tent door?

G.R.C. Yes, but we are all priests in this dispensation, so that the first thing is to understand our location as priests and to get the priestly outlook. Then, we can think of our location as levites, encamped around the tabernacle, and acquire the levitical outlook. Finally, there is our tribal encampment with its military responsibility and outlook. But we need to begin at the top, that is, as priests.

R.G.B. In most of Paul's epistles he refers to his prayers, and they are engaged with the saints and with the Lord's interests almost exclusively.

G.R.C. He says, "at my prayers". It is evident that Paul did not neglect the morning and evening

oblation because, as you say, his references to his prayers show that God's habitation in the Spirit was on his heart -- every part of it.

A.H. In Numbers 28:1, God speaks of "my bread", and the morning and evening lambs are referred to immediately.

G.R.C. Very good. We should now pass on to consider the desolator and Daniel's great concern about the desolator. At the end of chapter 8, when he first received the communication, he fainted and was sick certain days and was astonished at the vision. He himself was experiencing seventy years of captivity while the land was desolate, and the divine disclosure that further prolonged periods of desolation lay ahead, was too much for him. In chapter 10 he says, "In those days I Daniel was mourning three full weeks". Then he gets a further vision, with communications which continue to the end of the book and which afford much detail as to the activities of the desolator. A great personage comes to disclose these matters to him and he is by the river Hiddekel. Now Hiddekel, according to Genesis 2, is the river which flows forward towards Asshur -- i.e., Assyria -- showing that what is in mind in this river is the scourge of God. According to Isaiah -- see chapters 8: 5 - 8 and 10: 5, 22, 23 -- Assyria is the overflowing scourge, and he is represented in these later days by the king of the north, the great desolator whose activities occupy so much of chapter 11 of the book of Daniel. Jehovah says in Isaiah that because they refused the waters of Shiloah which flow softly the Lord would bring upon them "the waters of the river, strong and many, the king of Assyria and all his glory", Isaiah 8:6, 7. This is a matter to keep in our minds and be exercised about. It stresses the importance of giving heed to the waters of Shiloah which flow softly. It is because the waters of Shiloah have been refused in Christendom

and, no doubt, much neglected by ourselves, that we have had to experience the chastening of the waters of the river in the two world wars.

A.J.G. Do you connect the waters of Shiloah with the present voice of the Spirit?

G.R.C. I do; and if we are not subject to the Spirit's voice and movements, we stand in danger of the waters of the river again coming upon us in very severe discipline. But then this great personage, who no doubt represents the Lord Himself, is above the waters of the river -- chapter 12: 6 -- that is a great comfort. It means that the discipline is regulated by love. The discipline includes what is political. The history of Europe, and its wars, bears on these matters during the church period. The Lord has cast Jezebel into a bed and those that commit fornication with her into great tribulation. That has involved political interventions; so also has the opened door of Philadelphia. But the final word is to Laodicea, "I rebuke and discipline as many as I love; be zealous therefore and repent". I believe, in the discipline of the last two wars, the Lord had in mind correcting Laodicean tendencies amongst us, for such tendencies prevent us appreciating the waters of Shiloah which flow softly. The fact that the threat of invasion by the king of the north still hangs over the western world, has the same end in view. But then, the Lord Himself is over the whole matter. He is controlling the river. So in chapter 12: 6, it says, "And he said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, How long is it to the end of these wonders?" The answer is, "when the scattering power of the holy people shall be accomplished, all these things shall be finished". That is, matters are always under control. If you read chapter 11 of this book, which foretells the activities of the kings of the north and south, you might think these kings are absolutely uncontrolled,

and doing just what they like. But the truth is that the Lord Jesus Himself is above the river and He is controlling the whole matter. He is with His Father in His throne and is controlling everything that affects His people. Is that right?

A.J.G. I am sure it is.

E.C.M. Would it link with the Lord's word in Matthew 28, "All power has been given me in heaven and upon earth"?

G.R.C. Quite so.

W.J. Would you say a word concerning the promise to the overcomer in Laodicea, "to him will I give to sit with me in my throne", Revelation 3:21? Is that open to us?

G.R.C. I think we have to bear in mind first of all that the Lord is with His Father in His throne. The Father reserves times and seasons in His own authority, but the Lord is with Him in it. So that here the Man is above the waters of the river. They are all under control, although they do not seem to be. The activities of the desolator are allowed to go on only until the appointed time, just long enough to achieve the divine ends; and then the Lord will destroy the desolator. Chapters 8: 25, and 11: 45, both record the destruction of the desolator. The moment his work is done he will be destroyed; and that principle always operates. Instruments of discipline, similar in character to the king of the north, have been raised up during the present dispensation. But the moment the work is done they have been removed. The Lord does not allow the discipline to continue a moment longer than is needed to achieve the divine results. But then your point as to our being with Him in His throne bears more on chapter 7: 18, 22. Judgment was given to the saints of the most high places and they possessed the kingdom; that is, judgment was committed to

them. As we face up to matters now and are educated and become wise, we shall shine then as the brightness of the expanse -- chapter 12: 3 -- that is, we shall have our place in rule and government and judgment.

H.F.R. The Lord sitting on His Father's throne is the day of grace. We are in danger of taking advantage of that and the lukewarmness, characteristic of Laodicea, develops with us.

G.R.C. It is indeed the day of grace, but if we despise God's grace and refuse the waters of Shiloah, we come under His government. His government has not ceased.

F.P.S. The great tempest came upon Jonah and those who sailed with him because Jonah was not right in his relations with God.

G.R.C. You mean that if we are not faithful to our calling, we really do men generally a great disservice because, in the discipline God has to bring on His people, men suffer?

W.C.P. Could we speak of Habakkuk in this connection? You find God is dealing with a power which He Himself raised up to deal with His people. "Then will his mind change, and he will pass on", Habakkuk 1:11. But Habakkuk himself says, "I will stand upon my watch, and set me upon the tower, and will look forth to see what he will say unto me, and what I shall answer as to my reproof", Habakkuk 2:1.

G.R.C. That bears on the matter. His mind changes "and he will pass on, and become guilty". That is what always happens to a desolator; he becomes guilty and is destroyed.

A.E.M. Is it of interest that the desolator appears again after the millennium -- Gog and Magog -- and after that the great white throne is set up?

G.R.C. It is. The desolator referred to in Daniel is the desolator prior to the millennial day; but the desolator again comes into evidence after the millennial day, according to Revelation 20:7 - 9. Then,

you say, the great white throne is set up and the final session of judgment takes place.

Rem. 2 Thessalonians refers to that which restrains and he who restrains.

G.R.C. That is the great comfort at the present time. We are not in a dispensation when times are fixed. Things are flexible and a good deal depends upon us. God restrains and, no doubt, acts in relation to the prayers of His people. There is that which restrains, God raising up instruments of government and using them in restraint; and there is He who restrains, that is, the Holy Spirit here in the saints, by whom we voice our supplications.

H.J.M. As to the king of Assyria, Isaiah 8:8 says, "he shall reach even to the neck". That is, he came right up to the gates of Jerusalem: Later on in the book there is deep exercise and the virgin daughter of Zion laughs the enemy to scorn.

G.R.C. I think that illustrates God's end in the discipline. The coming up of the Assyrian was a foreshadowing of the desolator in the last days, and the Assyrian came up to the neck, but the discipline purified the remnant in Jerusalem. They were purified and made white and refined; and so the word of Jehovah was, "The virgin daughter of Zion despiseth thee, laugheth thee to scorn"; and they proved in that experience the great truth of Emmanuel. Though the Assyrian came up to the neck, God was with them and, therefore, the victory was assured. I believe that illustrates the use of the desolator. God uses him to bring the truth, in all its grandeur, home to our souls and to bring us into conformity to it.

D.McI. Is that not borne out by chapter 12: 1, when it speaks of Michael, and then it says, "and there shall be a time of distress, such as never was since there was a nation until that time. And at that time thy people shall be delivered"?

G.R.C. Just so. There never will be such a time of distress; and yet, so far as Israel is concerned, there never will be, I suppose, such a time of results. "Many shall be purified, and be made white, and be refined". Great results! And that is what is in mind at the present moment, great results for God!

A.J.G. Do you think, in that sense, God may take pleasure in seeing the feature of endurance, coupled with confidence in Him and devotion to His interests, developed in the saints? I was thinking of verse 12 of the last chapter. "Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and thirty-five days!" as though there is a suggestion that there might be just a little further period that had not been expected.

G.R.C. Very interesting! We need to be sure that we are going on until we arrive at the best. There is a time of suffering of one thousand two hundred and sixty days, the time, times and a half, of verse 7; and then there is the one thousand two hundred and ninety days of verse 11, which may give time for the judgment of the nations and the setting up of the kingdom. But one would think that the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days would reach to the full introduction of the sabbath. Every question is settled and God's rest fully ushered in. J.N.D. says it may reach on to the feast of tabernacles.

INTERCESSION -- A. J. GARDINER (MINISTRY MEETING)

Genesis 18:27, 28, 32; Jeremiah 15:1; Amos 7:1 - 3, 14, 15

As thinking over, dear brethren, what has been before us in these meetings, these scriptures have come into my mind in relation to the great matter of intercession which we have been speaking about. The first scripture refers to intercession for men, for the world, you might say, or rather the men in it, and the other two refer to intercession for God's people. One is struck with the lowly attitude of Abraham in taking up this service of intercession in regard of Sodom. He had just had the privilege of providing a repast for three visitors, one of whom was God Himself, and later, at any rate, he acquires the place of the friend of God, indeed we may gather from verses 17 to 19 that he had already acquired it. But here he is faced with the position that God is about to come in in judgment on Sodom, and, as we were saying together in one of the meetings yesterday, we have, perhaps more than we have done, to face the matter of having to do with the Lord in judicial character, for He is shortly going to judge the world, the very world in which we are, and He is moving, as we know, in judicial character among the assemblies. So, as has been said, when even John saw Him in that character he fell at His feet as dead. It may be that we have not sufficiently taken account of that side of things, the seriousness of the Lord having and expressing a judgment as to conditions in the assemblies, and the very great seriousness, the awfulness, of judgment being poured out shortly upon this very world in which we are. Revelation speaks of

the fury of God -- a most terrible expression, the fury of God.

Now Abraham is pleading with God for Sodom, that possibly there might be fifty righteous, and when God said if there were fifty He would spare the whole city for their sake, he says it may be that there will lack five of the fifty. He is imbued with the spirit of intercession but, at the same time, as marked by it, he says, I who am dust and ashes. A remarkable thing for Abraham to say, "I who am dust and ashes". Job repented in dust and ashes. It is not quite clear, perhaps, at what time Job lived but he said it as brought into the presence of God and made to feel that his only outlet was to abhor himself and repent in dust and ashes. But Abraham says, I who am dust and ashes, as though the full weight of having to do with God as in a world that was marked by evil, though Abraham himself was separate from it, had been made good in his soul. Well, one only refers to it, dear brethren, as believing that this kind of spirit and the facing things with God will give us greater power with God. There is no doubt that Abraham acquired great power with God in this remarkable incident of persevering intercession and, at the same time, there is nothing sentimental about his intercession, he knows when to stop. He goes so far, step by step, saying, perhaps there may be ten found there, and Jehovah says, I will not destroy it for ten's sake. But Abraham went no further. That is, he had a suitable sense of what was due to God, and that if the conditions in Sodom were so bad that there were not ten righteous persons there, it was only right that judgment should fall, although, no doubt, he had confidence in God -- that if there was one righteous man -- as there was in the person of Lot -- that man would be spared. So we read, as the chapter proceeds, that when the time came and the judgment was poured out Abraham went out to the

place where he had stood before the Lord and it says that God remembered Abraham and delivered Lot.

One felt, dear brethren, that this is a matter that we all need help on, really to face the seriousness of conditions all around us which call for judgment, and therefore the suited spirit on our part in which to engage in intercession on behalf of men.

Now when we come to Jeremiah 15 Jehovah is making known to Jeremiah that the position with Judah is irretrievable. The captivity was just about to take place, Jerusalem was shortly to be destroyed, the position after the reign of Manasseh was apparently irretrievable and so, in order to bring home to Jeremiah, how serious it was, God says, "Though Moses and Samuel stood before me, my soul would not turn toward this people". That is, He is pointing out Moses and Samuel as men who had had remarkable power with Him in intercession. We might enquire what was it about Moses and Samuel that made them such effective intercessors. We know that Moses was very effective in his intercession, especially at the time of the golden calf; we know that Samuel was very effective in his intercession. What made them so effective? The Lord would surely call our attention to those who are effective intercessors in order that we may learn to take on similar features. Now Moses is presented to us as one who felt the state of God's people from the start. He was born of good levitical lineage and the first time he is mentioned, it says, that the child wept. He is presented to us in that way as one who is marked by feeling the state of things in which God's people were involved. And then we know that later on, much discipline of course had to be faced before he was fit to be used as the deliverer of God's people -- when he went to Pharaoh to bring out God's people, having had a command to do so, he was very definite. He had to become strong gradually, he developed

strength as he moved in obedience to God's word, but there comes a time when Moses says, we will go with our young and with our old, with our flocks and with our herds, there shall not a hoof be left behind; Exodus 10:9, 26. Nothing could be more definite than the judgment that Moses had and expressed about the world which was holding God's people in captivity, and he would bring them out. There was no doubt whatever in the way he spoke to Pharaoh as to his attitude with regard to Egypt. Now, what attitude have we, dear brethren, in regard of Egypt? If it were the Sodom world, we should doubtless condemn it, repudiate it, reprobate it, but what about the Egypt world? The Egypt world is, perhaps, the most dangerous of all from one point of view. It represents the world as a system that lives in independence of God, having its resources in itself. The very principle of it is in all our hearts, and yet God would have the saints completely delivered from it. Indeed one has asked oneself lately how much we are really in the good of redemption, because there is something so absolute about redemption. It says that the Lord gave Himself for us, that he might redeem us from all lawlessness, and purify to Himself a peculiar people, zealous for good works. Redemption means that the rights of God over us are absolute, and that He has delivered us from one order of things, or intends to, in order that we might be wholly for Himself and the system in which He is known and served. One sometimes fears, dear brethren, that we, to a certain extent, have links with both systems; with the world on the one hand and with God's system on the other. But that is not the recognition of God's rights in redemption. God's rights in redemption are absolute, and it says that the Lord has washed us from our sins in His blood -- that is we are never to go back to what marked us previously -- and has made us a kingdom,

priests to His God and Father. That is the position we are in -- made us a kingdom; all His power and support available for our protection but, at the same time, it is in order that God might have priests in this evil world; priests who minister to His pleasure on the one hand, and, as we have been hearing, to represent Him in prayer and intercession for all men, for kings and those who are in dignity, and so on.

Well now, we shall indeed have no power with God if we are not definite in our repudiation of the world and in our recognition of the claims which He has established over us in redemption. Moses says, we will go with our young and with our old, with our flocks and with our herds, there shall not a hoof be left behind, and in chapter 11 of the book of Exodus we find that he went out from Pharaoh's presence in a glowing anger. That is, he really represented God's own feelings in regard of the system which, up to that moment, had kept His people in bondage. And how many of God's people are in bondage still. They belong to God, they belong to Christ, and yet are in bondage. And one challenges oneself as to how far we really feel it; how far there is godly indignation in our hearts in regard of the position. The Lord lays, "Woe to the world because of offences!" Matthew 18:7; as though He would say that system has provided stumbling blocks for thousands of My people, and woe to it -- Woe to the world, He says, because of offences. We might say much more as to Moses but one does not want to monopolise the time, but then Samuel, too, he was the product of deep feeling. We know how Hannah felt things, we know how she was determined that from the very outset Samuel should be one who served God suitably, so that even as a boy he ministered to Jehovah clothed in a linen ephod. Think of that, starting as a young boy with the idea of ministering to God in suited moral conditions; no doubt the effect of his mother's influence.

And so Samuel grows up in that setting, as one who from the very outset is to be a priest, though not one officially, and one who was marked by feeling in regard to the conditions in which God's people were. Well now he intercedes in power. He calls upon God's name, as it says in Psalm 99, "Moses and Aaron among his priests, and Samuel among them that call upon his name", verse 6, and he was answered. But he particularly shines near the end of his history. Not that he was not in power before for he certainly was, but at the end of his history he is rejected by the people, and he says, "Far be it from me that I should sin against Jehovah in ceasing to pray for you", 1 Samuel 12:23. He was not embittered by the fact that he was rejected by the people whom he had served so long. He says, I will teach you the good and right way. And there is another thing in which he shone, and which I have no doubt gave him great power with God, and that was the unsparing way in which he dealt with Agag after Saul had spared him. All these things, dear brethren, I have no doubt, enter into our acquiring power with God. If we are to intercede -- intercessions, prayers, supplications, thanksgivings for all men and especially too for all saints as we have in the end of Ephesians -- if we are to have power with God, it is a question of taking on, I believe, these features which are particularly seen in Moses and Samuel.

But now when we come to Amos, he is not, in one sense, someone distinctive like Moses and Samuel, nevertheless he acquires power, but he tells one who was opposed to him, "I was no prophet, neither was I a prophet's son; but I was a herdman, and a gatherer of sycamore fruit". He was just engaged in ordinary lowly occupation, engaged with what was living and concerned with fruit -- "I was a herdman and a gatherer of sycamore fruit". It is a good thing to be occupied with what is living and what can be

sacrificed to God, what can be presented to God, and with the idea of fruit for God, too. And Amos was marked by that. Just, you might say, an ordinary person, but at the same time having the good of the saints at heart, for he says, "And Jehovah took me as I followed the flock", that is he would be watching their movements, seeing, we might say, how they were getting on. Timothy cared with genuine feeling how the saints were getting on, and that was the kind of man that Amos was, and it is open to anyone of us. It is open to anyone of us, the youngest of us, that we should be genuinely concerned how the saints are getting on, following the flock and seeing their movements and, of course, if we are thus exercised, we shall be concerned as to our own movements. And as he was following the flock it says, "Jehovah took me, as I followed the flock, and Jehovah said unto me, Go, prophesy unto my people Israel". But now there is another thing comes to light with Amos, and that is that if anyone has the mind of God, so that he can communicate it to His people, he should also be an intercessor. We have in chapter 3 of this very book what I believe was referred to during the meetings, that the Lord Jehovah will do nothing but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets, and Amos was one to whom God showed things. If God shows us things it is intended that we should not only convey God's mind but that we should glorify Him by taking up the attitude of intercession. And, therefore, Amos is given to witness certain governmental dealings of God, locusts that were eating up all the latter growth and so on, and as he took account of this, he said, "O Lord Jehovah, forgive, I beseech thee!" What feeling there was, "O Lord Jehovah, forgive, I beseech thee! How shall Jacob arise? for he is small". His intercession was effective: "Jehovah repented for this; it shall not be". And then in the next paragraph

there is another governmental intervention on God's part in great severity and again he says, "O Lord Jehovah, cease, I beseech thee! How shall Jacob arise? for he is small. Jehovah repented for this". Then as things continue the position becomes irretrievable but I need not say any more as to that. All I had in mind was to point out that whereas with Moses and Samuel we have outstanding persons, with Amos we get what we might call an ordinary person, who is just following the flock and going on with a humble occupation, but available to God, to be taken up to convey His mind, but that if we have God's mind He intends that we should feel what it involves for His people and that we should take up the service of intercession. Amos was an intercessor who was effective, with what feeling he pleaded with God! Twice over his intercession was heard, and he becomes in that way a model for us.

Well, dear brethren, that is all that was in one's mind, hoping that the Lord might use the word just to help us all in what I am sure has been a challenging time at these meetings to us all; in the little time that is left I have no doubt the Lord would have us take up with greater definiteness and earnestness than ever before this service of praying in God's house suitably; having intelligence as to what is due to Him and at the same time having divine feelings both in regard of men and in regard of His people.

REVALUATION -- J. MCKAY

2 Kings 6:14 - 17; Mark 10:20 - 23; 2 Timothy 2:3, 4; 2 Timothy 4:1

I would speak very briefly, dear brethren, with the simple desire to lay upon all our hearts afresh the challenge that the ministry has brought to us. My impression is that it should be a time of revaluation

with us all. I believe the Lord has spoken; He often speaks, but I believe He has spoken very distinctly during the past two days, and the general effect upon us must be that it is time we really took stock of our position and came to a revaluation of all things which are available to us, whether individually, household wise or in the assembly. I think I can say freely that I have been impressed with the need to come freshly into the occasions of prayer in a new kind of way as becomes God's house. One feels rebuked at the amount of formality that has characterised and may still characterise our meetings for prayer; and one of the outstanding impressions left upon one's spirit during these occasions is the importance of this priestly intercession. Then, too, I would remark that in the epistle to Timothy the instruction as to intercession is given to a young man. All these instructions for the house of God are given to a young man, and I would urge our young brethren here tonight to come early to a proper valuation of the truth and their place in the fellowship with the privileges available. In the book of Proverbs the young man is brought into a sphere of values, values according to God. He is taught of his father to value things; it says, "and he taught me, and said unto me ... Get wisdom", Proverbs 4:4, 5. So that right from the outset we can say, and we trust all our young brethren here tonight agree, that we are in the presence of valuations according to assembly standards, according to the standards of God's house and according to the standards of the sanctuary. How I would urge that there might be a yielding to the powerful exhortation in the ministry! The place the young have had in our considerations has been most pronounced. The exercises of the young in France have had certain repercussions in this season together and we have all been happily carried.

So I have read these well-known passages with a

view to basing a word of exhortation on them. The first passage would help the young to be assured of the divine system in powerful operation. I know of nothing more comforting, in a sense, than that the system is here. God is equal to every emergency, and He is going to carry things through according to His own mind; and the point is whether we are in the gain of these things. When Elijah was taken up into heaven, the words of Elisha were, "My father, my father! the chariot of Israel and the horsemen thereof". That surely would have reference to what was available to God's people in power upon the earth, consequent upon Elijah's going into heaven.

In our chapter, the attendant of the man of God took account of things outwardly and said, "Alas, my master! how shall we do?" God has great patience with the attendants of the men of God; Joshua was such and God took him on; Elisha was such and God took him on; Mark was such, an attendant, breaking down, but God took him on. I would say, dear young brethren, attend on the truth, attend upon those who minister the truth. So the word here from Elijah is, "Jehovah, I pray thee, open his eyes". We would wish that everyone's eyes should be fully opened. Mark's gospel would help the young to see the energy and power in which things are to be carried through, and it is in that gospel that the Lord, in healing the blind man, gives him a second touch that he might see all things clearly. I trust that many have had a second touch here these two days; something that might determine and give character to your future walk; something that will help you in the re-assessment of values in the realm of the truth, for you will never gain Christ unless you learn how to value Him. The word in Romans 12, as to your "intelligent service", means that the believer is beginning to be able to reckon and to value. So in this passage in Kings the young

man needs to have his eyes open. What a host there was round about Elisha! It would speak of God for us and of the whole system as available to us, "full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha". Well, what more, dear young brother and sister, could you need in the way of confirmation? Commit yourself to the Lord unreservedly, not merely to break bread but from henceforth to be available to the Lord and wholly committed to Him.

Well now, in Mark's gospel we have a man whose sense of values was altogether disproportionate. He had come readily into things; he came running into the way and kneeling down to the Lord said, "What shall I do?" The Lord, looking on him, loved him; but immediately He tested him on the line of what value he placed on things. He says, "One thing lackest thou; go, sell whatever thou hast and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me, taking up the cross". That is the word, dear young brother! You might be clear of the world in many respects, but then there is your own sphere and the value you set upon it. This man went away sorrowful for he had great possessions. The greater your portion in the world the more difficult it will be. I would say, keep simple, never get involved: always be simple in your relations in this world, before God in piety and in salvation. It says, he went away grieved. "Jesus looking around says to his disciples, How difficultly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!" I would say, dear brethren, learn to change your values; sell what you have and you will get an increased value for it, you will have something of your own which will go through with you into God's day; but do not build up anything that will tend to establish you in independence of God, neglectful of the testimony and unable to carry the cross. The word here is, "follow me, taking up the cross".

Now as to Mark himself. He is often in our minds. As arriving at a revaluation Paul says he is "serviceable to me for the ministry". Think of the company, think of Paul himself, and the Lord committed to him, think of Luke being with him, think of Timothy going also to Rome and taking Mark with him! What company there would be in those brethren at Rome! Would it not be worth while to be wholly committed to be in the best of company, to be in the very centre of what God is doing with regard to His assembly and to the saints; and, indeed, to all that His counsel involves in connection with the universe? So the word to Timothy is a charge. It is a solemn matter to receive a charge; and Paul, though he knew Timothy so well and could speak to him as his child, says, "I testify before God and Christ Jesus". Is that not a solemn matter that things are presented to us on the line of a charge? The whole of the two books of Timothy constitute the charge of the man of God; and the word here is that it is laid upon him as in the presence of God and "Christ Jesus, who is about to judge the living and dead". Paul is urgent with this young man; everything is in the nature of command in these epistles. There was to be no option but a man completely at the word of the apostle. Then he is to "take Mark and bring him with thyself, for he is serviceable to me".

Well, dear brethren, how much there is in these epistles to Timothy, so much that we need to keep the truth in them currently in our hearts day by day, for that is where, so to speak, the Lord has His rights. The reference to the Lord in this book is most touching, the Lord Himself! "The Lord stood with me and gave me power". So that we might say this is not simply the divine system objectively, it is not a matter now of the horses and chariots round about Elisha, but it is a matter of persons who can

be relied upon, persons, indeed, who are part themselves of the divine system and are here in relation to the will of God.

I trust my young brethren will suffer the word of exhortation and be attentive to the truth; never be satisfied with an objective knowledge such as we might acquire in meetings together, but rather be diligent in following up the truth in exercise, and working it out consistently in our daily path and in the assembly. May the Lord graciously bless the ministry that we have received. In a sense it is simple to refer to what we have had and to exhort one another to pay attention to it and to keep the entrusted deposit, for His name's sake!

ENLARGEMENT -- A. E. MYLES

1 Chronicles 4:9, 10

As you know, dear brethren, I am only able to speak a very simple word, but I said, after the afternoon reading, to Mr. G., "I feel greatly humbled", and he said he felt the same. So there are two of us, anyway; we may find more, if we canvass the brethren, that are greatly humbled. I feel as though the past fifty or sixty years have been largely lost, and I would encourage the younger brethren, and the older brethren too, to seek enlargement. As an old man, I can look back for a long time. We have lived in a remarkable era. We have seen the truth of eternal life more clearly recovered; we have seen the truth as to the Sonship of Christ recovered; we have seen the worship of the Spirit recovered; we have seen the worship of God Himself recovered. What a list of blessed truths we can enjoy, and are enjoying! But every recovery has meant a conflict and loss. I can remember in early days the conflict about

eternal life; I can remember those whom we lost in the truth of the Sonship of Christ; I can remember, more recently, we have lost some in the truth of the Spirit's worship. All these things are real conflicts and bring sorrow. Conflict makes men of us and enlarges us.

So I wanted to speak a word, briefly, about enlargement. I feel we need enlargement. We have it, in a measure, in regard to the service of God. We all enjoy it much more than we used to; but I feel that we need enlargement as to the great place that God has given us in His house and in the testimony.

So Jabez came before me. There is something prior to his prayer. His mother bore him with pain. Enlargement always brings pain, the pain of a mother. It would mean exercises carried a long time. We do not get enlargement suddenly in the meeting; it may begin there, but it means carrying until the child is born and it brings pain. What a child Jabez was! He turns to God and says, "Oh that thou wouldest richly bless me, and enlarge my border, and that thy hand might be with me, and that thou wouldest keep me from evil". What a prayer! I feel we need enlargement in regard of our place in the testimony. We have been so narrow, so insular, never looking much beyond our own meeting; but the thought of God is to have His saints before Him in all the glorious viewpoint of the prophetic testimony. What a sphere it is! We can look round in the world; it is seething and troublous. Politicians do not know what to do; but we, as Christians, know what will be the end of it. We cannot tell when, but we know the end, and we have to pray about these great events. Bodies of men are arising on every hand claiming the world for themselves without regard to others. We have rights in the world, God has given us rights down here; we are here according to the will of God, and He hears us, our prayers

move Him. He is a God that can be moved, even to repentance! What a God!

So we are to pray for enlargement in every respect in the prophetic testimony of the Lord. So Jabez sought to be kept from evil; because it might grieve God? No, because it might grieve him. So God would take notice of a man like Jabez. He loves to hear His people pray, whether in the home or in private or in the meeting; He is always listening to what His people say. He knows all about what to do from His own side, but He loves to listen to His people and His people's prayers move Him. Think of the mighty power of God moving to bring to pass the prayers of His people!

So I commend to you the prayer of Jabez, feeling the need of enlargement and being kept from evil.

THE TIMES OF THE NATIONS (5)

Romans 11:25, 26; Ephesians 3:1, 8 - 12; Ephesians 6:17 - 20; 1 Timothy 2:1 - 7

G.R.C. We have been engaged in Daniel with "the times of the nations", the characteristics of those times and also the characteristics of those who bear testimony during those times. God has established the times of the nations, and He maintains witnesses whose testimony at times reaches the highest levels, so that Christ's name is borne before kings and rulers. All is with a view to the fulness of the nations being brought in. Paul speaks of this as a mystery: "I do not wish you to be ignorant, brethren, of this mystery, that ye may not be wise in your own conceits, that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the nations be come in". The times of the nations were governmentally established because of Israel's failure; but, while used of God in relation to Israel's discipline and recovery, a greater purpose was in mind, an eternal purpose, namely, that the fulness of the nations might come in. That brings us to Paul's commission and service. He says in chapter 11: 13, "I speak to you, the nations, inasmuch as I am apostle of nations, I glorify my ministry". So that Paul was in the divine mind as the great vessel, the apostle of nations; and at the close of his life it is affecting to think of him as prisoner of Christ Jesus for us nations. His commission was to announce among the nations the glad tidings of the unsearchable riches of Christ and to enlighten all with the knowledge of what is the administration of the mystery, hidden throughout the ages in God. It is important to see that the scope of both parts of Paul's ministry was equal. All were

to be evangelised and all were to be enlightened as to the knowledge of the administration of the mystery. At the end of Romans he refers to his gospel and he says it is "according to the revelation of the mystery, as to which silence has been kept in the times of the ages, but which has now been made manifest, and by prophetic scriptures, according to commandment of the eternal God, made known for obedience of faith to all the nations", Romans 16:26. The gospel was to be preached for obedience of faith among all the nations, but the commandment of the eternal God was that the mystery should be made known for obedience of faith to all nations.

J.McK. How does the offering up of the nations come in? It says, "that in order that the offering up of the nations might be acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit", Romans 15:16. Does that contemplate something achieved in the assembly?

G.R.C. He speaks of himself as "minister of Christ Jesus to the nations, carrying on as a sacrificial service the message of glad tidings of God, in order that the offering up of the nations might be acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit". I would think what you say is right because, during this greatest of dispensations, it is not nations as nations that are brought into blessing. The offering up of the nations, as sanctified by the Holy Spirit, would involve that they are brought into the body of Christ, the one body. He says in Ephesians 3:6, "that they who are of the nations should be joint heirs, and a joint body, and joint partakers of his promise in Christ Jesus by the glad tidings".

J.McK. You could hardly think of anything being sanctified by the Holy Spirit outside of the assembly at the present time.

G.R.C. No. So the greatest feature of the fulness of the nations must surely be the assembly. There will be a work later when the assembly has gone, but

it will not be in any way of the same quality or character.

W.S.S. Would it help to refer to the earlier verses of Romans 15, "to confirm the promises of the fathers, and that the nations should glorify God for mercy; according as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the nations, and will sing to thy name. And again he says, Rejoice, nations, with his people", verses 8 - 10.

G.R.C. Yes. In their full scope those prophecies refer to the day to come, but they are applied in that chapter to the present time -- the time of Paul's ministry.

W.S.S. So that all these prophecies are very wonderful for us at the present time.

G.R.C. They are. "I will confess to thee among the nations, and will sing to thy name". What is meant is that the Lord is singing, confessing God's name in praise. There is a confession of God's name in praise among the nations at the present time by vessels of mercy. But as we move on in Paul's ministry we are taught that those vessels of mercy form the assembly, the great vessel of praise.

Now these matters raise the question as to whether we are among the wise. The wise understand mysteries. There will always, of course, be mysteries which are beyond the creature, such as the mystery of Deity; but, generally speaking, the wise understand mysteries. The only wise God would give wisdom, as Daniel says; He gives wisdom to the wise. So He revealed certain things to Daniel. But Daniel himself did not fully understand them. At the close of the book the angel says, "Go thy way, Daniel; for these words are closed and sealed till the time of the end". But then he says, "Many shall be purified, and be made white, and be refined; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall under-

stand", Daniel 12:9, 10. That is, a time was coming when words which were closed and sealed, as far as Daniel was concerned, would be understood by the wise. That will be true of the maschilim who follow us. It is to those that the scripture primarily refers. But then, none of these things are sealed to those who form the assembly. The book of Daniel is not closed and sealed to us. It is an open book to us because upon us the ends of the ages are come, 1 Corinthians 10:11. We have light and wisdom beyond that which the wise -- maschilim -- will have at the time of the end. The ends of the ages are come upon the assembly, and it is the thought of God that everyone who forms the assembly should be among the wise in the fullest sense, possessing wisdom in excess of that which any other family will have. So it is important to know that Daniel is not a sealed book to Christians -- it should not be; and similarly, the mystery of Romans 11:25 is not sealed to us; we understand that the fulness of the nations is coming in. Then, above all, there is the great mystery revealed to Paul, referred to in Ephesians 3, "the mystery hidden throughout the ages in God". All these mysteries should be well-known to us by the Spirit. If they are not known to us we are not equipped to fulfil our part in intelligent supplication and intercession, nor in other services connected with the bringing in of the fulness of the nations.

W.C. Revelation 5 refers to the sealed book and the One who breaks its seals.

G.R.C. The word at the end of Revelation is, "Seal not the words of the prophecy of this book", Revelation 22:10.

W.C. What you are saying is that all the mysteries you have mentioned are open to the saints, whether in Daniel or Revelation.

G.R.C. I think we should accept that. We should be very concerned indeed if Daniel is a sealed book

to us because to be among the wise at the present time it is essential to know the truth of Daniel, otherwise we are not intelligent as to governmental matters during the times of the nations. On the other hand, to be among the wise today it is also essential to understand the mystery as revealed to Paul, otherwise we cannot be skilled workmen for we do not know the objective in view in the work. We shall thus not be truly serviceable to God in the bringing in of the fulness of the nations.

W.R. When the apostle breaks forth in his doxology at the end of Romans, he desires that the saints should be established in accordance with the truth of the mystery. Then he addresses God as "the only wise God". Would that be a feature in the matter?

G.R.C. It is a very important feature. Paul is worshipping "the only wise God" who has made manifest the mystery of Christ and the assembly.

W.R. Would that be the top-stone, so to speak, of His wisdom?

G.R.C. I think it is. The very acme of divine wisdom is seen in the formation, and in the practical working of the assembly under the headship of Christ.

A.J.G. And that in turn becomes the means by which the all-various wisdom of God is made known to principalities and powers in the heavenlies, would you say?

G.R.C. I would. As understanding the secrets disclosed in Daniel, we are equipped to stand before earthly authorities in testimony; but as understanding the administration of the mystery according to Ephesians 3, we are equipped to render testimony to heavenly authorities, which is a very great matter. Daniel was able to give to earthly rulers an impression of God's wisdom, because God had given him wisdom. But then, in the assembly heavenly principalities and authorities are able to take account of the all various

wisdom of God. It should profoundly affect us that God intends us to be, to some extent at any rate, under the eyes of earthly authorities in testimony, as Paul bore Christ's name "before both nations and kings and the sons of Israel"; and, on the other hand, in our normal assembly service, to render testimony to heavenly authorities as to the all-various wisdom of God. We are under the eyes of both.

J.McK. Does the scripture imply that the word 'now', that particular period of time, was in mind in divine purpose? Does it focus our attention on the assembly period?

G.R.C. The word 'now' is a vital word in this passage: "in order that now". It goes so far as to speak of God as the One "who has created all things, in order that now to the principalities and authorities in the heavenlies might be made known through the assembly the all-various wisdom of God, according to the purpose of the ages, which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord", verses 9 - 11. What a marvellous thing it is that God established the times of the nations in order to make way for Paul, the apostle of the nations, and his ministry, so that there should be this great result according to eternal purpose.

A.E.M. You are calling attention to the need of following Paul in testimony throughout?

G.R.C. Yes. Would you say more, please?

A.E.M. I do not think we have appreciated it as yet. Every time we preach the gospel we must have in mind both the testimony to the nations and the formation of the assembly.

G.R.C. Very good. So that the gospel and the assembly are never to be divorced. And is it not striking that Paul never gives up the scope of his ministry? He has nothing less than the nations before him, even as a teacher, for, referring to the

testimony, he says, "to which I have been appointed a herald and apostle (I speak the truth, I do not lie), a teacher of the nations in faith and truth", 1 Timothy 2:7. We might have said Paul was a teacher of the saints -- and indeed he was -- but by divine appointment, he was a teacher of the nations. That was the scope of his service.

G.H.S.P. Is there a suggestion of Paul's ministry in the four craftsmen shown to Zechariah? First of all he sees the horses in the low valley and the man amongst them, then the horns that scattered Israel, which would refer to governmental matters. Then, immediately after the reference to God returning to Jerusalem, he is shown four craftsmen. Is that the positive side?

G.R.C. It is. Zechariah 1 is very comprehensive, because the first view of the Gentile powers, as horses, shows them as under divine control, for they are behind the man riding upon a red horse standing among the myrtle trees. Later, viewed as horns, they are seen in their intrinsic character as opposed to God and His people. God uses them in His disciplinary ways, yet, in themselves, they are opposed. But then the opposition is met by the four craftsmen, and I think it would be right, in this day, to link them with Paul and those who work with him. One is impressed by the way Paul maintains the scope of his commission in 1 Timothy 2 as a herald and apostle and teacher of the nations in faith and truth; and also, as a prisoner in 2 Timothy 1:11, he says, "I have been appointed a herald and apostle and teacher of the nations".

J.McK. Would the reference to himself as an ambassador, in Ephesians 6:20, imply that the apostle was maintaining these relationships between heaven and the nations?

G.R.C. I would think so. He was at the seat of

power of the fourth empire and regards himself as an ambassador bound with a chain.

A.G.B. Is it significant that the light of this truth came so early into the soul of Paul relative to his own commission?

G.R.C. The word to Ananias in Acts 9:5 is, "Go, for this man is an elect vessel to me, to bear my name before both nations and kings and the sons of Israel". The order is noteworthy.

A.G.B. That was said on the same day that Paul's eyes were opened. Yet how long we may go on without having this great scope of service before us.

F.B.F. Would the Lord, in speaking to His disciples privately in Matthew's gospel, show that He wanted the personnel of the assembly to be intelligent as to prophetic things? He speaks of Daniel.

G.R.C. The Lord's words in Matthew should turn everyone's attention to Daniel because he says, "he that reads let him understand". I do not think the Lord says that about any other book in the Bible.

D.McI. Why are you emphasising the word "to the nations"?

G.R.C. It seems to me to show the grandeur of the universality of God's outlook, which the servant was to take in from the very inception of his ministry. He was to bear Christ's name before nations and kings -- what a magnificent commission! -- and the sons of Israel. The sons of Israel are put last because this is the time of the nations. It is a question of the fulness of the nations coming in; and Paul was the vessel -- the apostle of nations.

R.G.B. In the Acts, after Paul had been taken -- he had been at Jerusalem -- the Lord says, "as thou hast testified the things concerning me at Jerusalem, so thou must bear witness at Rome", Acts 23:11. Then as he goes up from the shipwreck, in chapter 27, the angel says, "Fear not, Paul;

thou must stand before Caesar", verse 24. I wondered if that shows how it was definitely in the mind of heaven -- that Paul's commission should be completed and that he should stand before the highest authority among the nations.

G.R.C. I am sure that is right. So that Paul's imprisonment in Rome was of the Lord; he was the "prisoner in the Lord"; but the purpose of it was that he was "prisoner of the Christ Jesus for you nations". He was held in the centre of power of the fourth great empire; to be there as a witness to all nations and to bear Christ's name before Caesar himself. As regards his last recorded service he says, "that through me the proclamation might be fully made, and all those of the nations should hear", 2 Timothy 4:17.

H.H. Does his view of himself in this chapter as the least of all saints help him in relation to his service among the nations in proclaiming the unsearchable riches of Christ?

G.R.C. He is speaking of the greatest things; he is speaking of the glad tidings of the unsearchable riches of the Christ, the riches with which he would endow the assembly, the unsearchable wealth of the One who is the Head of the assembly. So he immediately goes on to bring in the truth of the Mystery, "to enlighten all with the knowledge of what is the administration of the Mystery", because, unless we are prepared to face what is involved in the administration of the mystery, that is, the practical working out of it, we shall not come into the gain of the unsearchable riches resident in the Head. They are available for the nations, but only for those of the nations who become subject and obey the truth of the gospel and the truth of the Mystery, and thus fit into their place in the body, the assembly.

H.F.R. You were speaking just now of Paul and those working with him. Is it not a great feature of

the recovery in these last days that there are those working with Paul?

G.R.C. Like Priscilla and Aquila, "my fellow workmen in Christ Jesus", Romans 16:3. It is the highest level of workmanship to be Paul's fellow-workmen in Christ Jesus. Such people would have the whole plan in their minds; they would, in measure, have Paul's intelligence in the mystery, and would be working in order that the administration of it might be known and worked out amongst those obedient to the truth. That great point is obedience to the truth, and the working out in practice of the truth of the body, the assembly, until we arrive at what the assembly is as the great vessel of praise and worship to God. It is the great vessel of praise and worship Godward and of administration manward; but to arrive at that we have to face all the exercises connected with membership of the body, the sovereignty of the Spirit's activities in the body, and the necessity for Christ as Head. Paul's ministry is accepted by so few because it means the utter setting aside of man in the flesh.

H.F.R. The enemy's effort is ever to divert us from Paul's ministry.

A.C.S.P. Would you be free to say a word as to the obedience of faith connected with the mystery? We have connected the thought of the obedience of faith with the gospel. Do we need our thoughts about the gospel enlarged?

G.R.C. We do. The obedience of faith in the end of Romans is connected also with the mystery. It is "made known for obedience of faith to all the nations", Romans 16:26. You cannot do anything with a person who is not obedient. The truth of the gospel is presented for the obedience of faith, and the truth of the mystery is on exactly the same principle. We present the truth of the mystery with a view to securing persons who, through God's grace, are pre-

pared to be obedient to it, and it must be in faith because faith alone is capable of laying hold of the thoughts of God. We have to grasp the idea in the faith of our souls. God would impart to us His own thoughts and give us the divine conception of what the assembly is. So that we know what we are working to; but in the working out of it we have to follow patiently Paul's ministry; we have to begin with the truth of the body in Romans 12 and work on through the truth of the body as presented in Corinthians and Colossians until we arrive at Ephesians. In that epistle the truth of Christ's relationship with the assembly is fully developed, and also the way the assembly, under His Headship and endowed with His unsearchable riches, becomes available both in service Godward and in administration manward. Both are in mind in what the heavenly principalities take account of. They take account of the assembly engaged in the service Godward, where the fullest expression of wisdom is seen, as well as in administration manward.

J.M. Is this seen anticipatively in Malachi 1:11, where it says, "from the rising of the sun even unto its setting my name shall be great among the nations; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure oblation: for my name shall be great among the nations, saith Jehovah of hosts"? Is that Paul's ministry working out, do you think?

G.R.C. It seems to be remarkably fitting as applied at the present time. In the world to come God's name will be linked with Jerusalem; but at the present time in every place incense is offered to His name and a pure oblation, because the assembly, as here testimonially, is formed of local companies.

A.J.G. In view of what has been said as to all the nations, could you say something as to God, in His ways, limiting the working out of the truth of the assembly to the western part of the earth? The

treasure in Genesis was found in one section of the earth.

G.R.C. Yes; and Paul, of course, was directed westward, but it did not prevent his maintaining a universal outlook in his service. So one's impression would be that, while we would accept that in the ways of God the testimony as to the assembly has moved westward, we must also be prepared for God to maintain a foothold in Asia. The present work in Bombay, though small, seems to indicate that God intends to maintain a foothold in Asia.

A.J.G. That is very interesting, and we do have the statement in Colossians that the gospel has been preached in all the creation under heaven.

G.R.C. Yes. We are not given the service of many of the apostles, are we? The Spirit records the main line in the Acts, would you say?

A.J.G. Yes.

A.G.B. It is significant that Simeon, with the Babe in his arms, speaks of a light for the illuminating or uncovering of the Gentiles.

G.R.C. Quite so. I think we should now consider the service of prayer because it is a most potent way in which we can help forward the bringing in of the fulness of the nations, in the sense of the completion of God's work in the assembly, even if we are prevented through limitation from doing much in the way of active service. We can all thus have part in what is really the most important service of all; and the exhortations to prayer in Ephesians and 1 Timothy put together show the two great outlets we have in prayer, the two ways in which we should approach God in true communion with Him, because we are not in true communion with God unless we have a universal outlook. So in Ephesians it says, "praying at all seasons, with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching unto this very thing with all perseverance and supplication for all saints"; the

word 'all' comes in many times -- "and for me, in order that utterance may be given to me in the opening of my mouth to make known with boldness the mystery of the glad tidings", Ephesians 6:18, 19. What a marvellous exhortation for continuous prayer in relation to the working out in practice of Paul's ministry!

E.C.M. Why does it say, "praying at all seasons"?

G.R.C. It is not limited to the prayer meeting. It should mark the prayer meetings, of course; but praying at all seasons bears somewhat on the morning and evening oblation. It is the kind of prayer that God expects to hear at His altar. It is not our household altar or our individual altar; it is the prayer at God's altar, and if you are at God's altar you are in communion with Him in the sense of all that He has secured in the value of the Person and work of Christ, and thus you could not leave out one member of His household. Your thoughts are towards His house, His habitation in the Spirit. Your concern is that every member of God's household should come into the full gain of Paul's ministry and be fully functioning in their place in that vessel in which glory is rendered to God.

G.H.S.P. Is that set out in Colossians? In chapter 1 Paul speaks about combating immediately after his reference to the mystery, and in the last chapter he speaks about Epaphras combating in prayer.

G.R.C. Yes, I am sure. There were two men taking the matter up in combat. It thus involves the idea of conflict. But the universality of this should impress us. God's altars are both square. They are said to be square. Not only are the measurements given which show that they are square, but the word 'square' is used, both when the instructions are given and when they are actually made. You cannot be at the altars of God without a universal outlook. We tend to be so parochial or national or bounded

by a district. Of course, we have special responsibilities in our locality -- I am not ignoring that at all -- that is where we have to work things out in practice; nevertheless the prayer here is "all prayer and supplication in the Spirit ... with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints".

E.C.M. Is not that another link with the nations, that God's house is the house of prayer for all nations?

G.R.C. That is the 1 Timothy 2 side of the matter. Ephesian prayer may be more like prayer at the altar of incense, where you are in surroundings which remind you that everything is of God and you are thinking of the saints according to divine thoughts and purpose; but I wonder whether we include every member of the household of God when we are praying, and whether we pray to God that during that day every member of His household on earth might get some sense of blessing from Him and some increase in the knowledge of Him. We might find many more in fellowship if we prayed continually thus. The saints would surely get help in the knowledge of God.

F.P.S. Would it help us to find out something about the saints in a universal way?

G.R.C. I think it is our business to find out. As to those we walk with, they are specially on our hearts and they need special prayer for grace to be an exemplification of the truth they hold. I think we can well afford to pray every day, night and morning, if not more often, that the saints with whom we walk might be a far better exemplification of the truth.

A.L. Would love for all the saints enter into it?

S.A.V.W. The last verse of Psalm 28 has the saints universally in mind: "Save thy people, and bless thine inheritance; and feed them, and lift them up forever".

G.R.C. That is good. This prayer stands related to Paul and his ministry; that is, we are concerned that Paul's ministry should have full scope.

H.G.H. Does the reference to the mystery of the glad tidings include the mystery of the assembly?

G.R.C. I would think so. It is a general statement covering both parts of his ministry.

W.C. With reference to the four heads of the river, in Genesis 2, there is only one head that surrounds the place where the gold is, and the onyx stone and the bdellium are there. There is a universal movement which perhaps might refer somewhat to the Spirit in relation to need. It surrounds the whole land of Cush. But there is the land of Havilah, which is special, one out of the four. Do you think that bears on the gold coming to light, and what is precious to God in the service?

G.R.C. Are you meaning that there should be prayer relative to universal need, but then there is that which we have specially to pray about?

W.C. Yes. I was thinking of the flow of the Spirit in this way, and that we might be in the current of it. There is that which relates to people's needs, which must be met, but there is that which is beyond need and which is special to this particular land of Havilah.

G.R.C. You mean that our prayers should not be limited to God meeting men's needs, but that there might be a full answer to His thoughts in the working out of the administration of the mystery according to Paul's teaching?

W.C. Yes. The gold is there, if it can be brought to light, and prayer would enter into that.

W.F. You were saying that the truth of the mystery was to go as widely as the truth of the glad tidings. Do you think we should pray that some feature of the mystery might enter into the preaching in the open air?

G.R.C. I think that, in some way, an impression of it should be given, although you will notice it is not said that the truth of the mystery is preached.

It is made manifest and made known, according to Romans 16, and in Ephesians 3 Paul says, "to enlighten all with the knowledge of what is the administration of the mystery". My impression is that the most effective way in which the knowledge of the mystery is manifested is in seeing people working it out. I believe there should be something in the preaching of the glad tidings to bring people to where they will see the truth of the mystery in manifestation by seeing it actually worked out amongst the saints.

A.B. In that way, is the preaching connected with the house of God?

G.R.C. It is. So it should bring people into the house where they will see the thing worked out.

A.J.G. Like the report that reached the Queen of Sheba. She came and saw the wisdom of Solomon in the system that was operating under his hand.

G.R.C. That is an excellent illustration. She heard -- that might be like the report that would reach men in the preaching -- she heard of Solomon's wisdom; but she came and saw, and there was that functioning under Solomon's hand, typifying the administration of the mystery in our day, which was manifested and thus made known to her; and that emphasises the importance of the truth being worked out, in however few, in every locality, so that it is available to be made known to any exercised soul.

R.G.B. In 1 Corinthians 14, where prophetic ministry is going on, the man falls down and worships, and says, "God is indeed amongst you".

G.R.C. Quite so. We should now turn to 1 Timothy 2:1 - 7, which presents the other side of the truth and links more with the altar of burnt offering. We could not truly approach God at His altar without having a universal outlook, such as the passage suggests, because the burnt offering altar is not only the place where we commence our

approach to God but it is also the basis of God's approach to man. The Man Christ Jesus has given Himself a ransom for all. At the altar we are in communion with God, and His outlook and desires are towards all men, and He has in His thoughts kings and all that are in dignity. Our prayers, therefore, are to embrace all.

W.S.S. Paul never had less than all men in his mind. According to Colossians 1:28, for instance, he laboured to present every man perfect in Christ.

G.R.C. Quite so. In this passage four things are referred to, namely, supplications, prayers, intercessions, thanksgivings. It is not a formal matter at all. Supplication supposes that the one who is approaching God knows what is urgently needed at the moment, both in respect of men and of kings and all that are in dignity. He is, of course, thinking all the time of Paul's ministry going forward, whether he is praying for all saints, according to Ephesians 6, or for all men, and kings and all in dignity, according to 1 Timothy 2. But then supplication, whether for saints or for men, implies that one knows what is urgent at the moment. It has already been suggested that we should make ourselves acquainted, as far as possible, with what is happening among all saints all over the world; but we also need to be acquainted, in a right way, with what is happening amongst all men. Then, if we are truly with God, and praying in the Holy Spirit, we shall know how to supplicate, pray, intercede and also to give thanks for all men and for kings and all that are in dignity.

R.H.S. All these things are in the plural -- supplications, prayers, intercessions, thanksgivings -- showing that they are matters of urgency.

F.G.H. The quiet and tranquil life referred to would be essential with a view to our working out and arriving at the full truth of Paul's ministry?

G.R.C. Quite so. The passage runs on to the fact

that, as regards the testimony, Paul had been appointed a herald and apostle, a teacher of the nations in faith and truth. The whole thing is in mind. So it says that our Saviour God desires that all men should be saved and come to the knowledge -- literally, 'full knowledge' -- of the truth. We pray for all men, for kings and those in authority, but always having in mind that Paul was the herald and apostle and teacher. We pray intelligently, therefore, knowing what is urgent relative to Paul's ministry going forward.

A.C.S.P. We would have little thought of a fearless servant like Paul needing the prayers of the brethren that he might be bold as he ought to speak; Ephesians 6:20. Ought we to think more of prayerfully supporting those who take a lead?

G.R.C. Yes, indeed! It is of the utmost importance that Paul's ministry should still go forward through those whom God may raise up for that purpose. We need, also, help as to how to pray for men; for God is concerned about His creatures both as regards their spiritual and physical needs. Nebuchadnezzar's second dream -- Daniel 4 -- shows how God uses imperial power to care for His creatures. He is the Preserver of all men, especially of those who believe. Nebuchadnezzar saw himself as a great tree of beautiful appearance and abundant fruit, and all flesh was fed from it. I believe this is the beneficent view of empire. God uses empire, during the times of the nations, to mitigate, in some degree, the consequences of Babel, for the benefit of all men. The Pax Romana and the Pax Britanica have been used of God for the benefit of all His creatures, as well as to provide circumstantial conditions for His testimony to go forward. Without imperial power the world would be in chaos and confusion. Thus, in praying for kings and those in dignity, we should not be oblivious to the physical needs and sufferings of men, while specially thinking

of their spiritual needs. Every aspect of Gentile rule described in Daniel should have its own bearing on our prayers.

W.S.S. Is it not a comfort and encouragement that God Himself desires all men to be saved?

G.R.C. It is; and this book shows that He is also the Preserver of all men. He cares providentially for all men. He cares for men in order that they might be in a state of mind and heart to receive the gospel.

W.S.S. I pray for all men, but I cannot take into my mind the thought of all men, but I pray to the God who desires that all men should be saved, so I am comforted in praying in that way.

G.R.C. Yes, but it says here we are to pray for all men. The Spirit is in us to help us to carry this out, and we have the scriptures to make us wise. We should be among the wise, to know how to supplicate, pray, intercede and give thanks for all men -- to know what to pray for at any given time; to make specific requests knowing well that the thing we ask for is needed, and God will answer those prayers.

A.C.S.P. Does the way it is put, that God would have all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, show that in God's mind it is one great matter?

G.R.C. Yes. The word 'knowledge' there implies 'full knowledge' of the truth, which involves the whole of Paul's ministry. Then it summarises the truth in a most remarkable statement: "God is one, and the mediator of God and men one, the man Christ Jesus". You have there a remarkable statement of the truth.

F.G.H. Is your thought that in order to make specific requests for men and authorities wisdom is required?

G.R.C. That is just the point. Are we among the wise? Every member of the assembly should be among the wise. God is soon going to secure the wise among an earthly people. It says the wise will

understand; Daniel 12:10. Those who follow us will get the gain of the discipline they will go through. They will be in no doubt as to how to pray, and we in our day should be in no doubt as to how to pray, whether for all saints or for all men, or for kings and all that are in dignity.

H.F.R. The Spirit knows, at first hand, just what is needed. He knows the urgent matters and He would help us to pray; even when we do not know how to pray as in Romans 8:26, the Spirit intercedes.

D.McI. It adds "thanksgivings", showing that prayers are answered.

G.R.C. Quite so. Intelligent prayers of faith are always answered.

A.E.M. Would you pray for the present situation? Many men are on strike, many saints are affected. Men are affected, their wives and children are affected. Is it a matter to take to God in prayer?

G.R.C. I am sure it is. Our compassions go out to men in their suffering. They are being misled and the devil is behind it. Wives and children are suffering, and we should pray for them. We should also pray for those in authority in connection with the present situation. Men have come in a body, as in Daniel 6, and they are endeavouring to influence the government. They have done so in Australia and America in such a manner as to secure trade union legislation. In this country they have not been able to coerce the government yet; and I believe they never will while the assembly is here, provided the saints are urgent in prayer. If we pray, God will strengthen the government against these bodies of men. The universal fellowship to which we belong, the fellowship of God's Son, would be unable to function if they had their way. That is Satan's aim in the matter, and therefore we must pray. We must pray to God to strengthen governments against these bodies of men.