Ezra 1:1 - 11; Ezra 3:1 - 6, 10 - 13.

G.R.C. It is in mind in these readings to consider PROGRESS IN RECOVERY, noting that the progress was mainly in three stages; first, the building of the altar and its functioning, then the building of the house and the establishment in a definite way of the priesthood as indicated in Zechariah 6, and then, under Nehemiah, the building of the wall and its dedication; having in view that we should see an analogy in our own times in the history of the recovery in which we have part. We would bear in mind that, while these things were consecutive relative to the material altar and the material house, they run concurrently in our case, although they were somewhat consecutive in their initiation. So that we are still getting help as to the altar; and it is manifest that the building of the house has to continue, because, apart from anything else, fresh generations come along, and we "are built together for a habitation of God in the Spirit". (Ephesians 2:22). And it is similar with the wall. But the exercise as to the building of the wall has become more prominent in this later stage of the recovery. Thus the three things run on concurrently with us, although, as I say, there is a certain moral order, and, to some extent, an historical order in the history of the present revival.

Before we consider the altar, I thought we might seek help as to the relations of the returned captives with the authorities. In the return from the captivity the relationship between the authorities and the people of God assumed great importance. So this book opens with "And in the first year of Cyrus

king of Persia, that the word of Jehovah by the mouth of Jeremiah might be accomplished, Jehovah stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia". And then verse 5 brings out another principle, namely, that God co-ordinates what He does in government with what He is doing in grace; and so it says, "the chief fathers of Judah and Benjamin rose up, and the priests, and the Levites, even all those whose spirit God had stirred, to go up to build the house of Jehovah which is at Jerusalem". Thus God was operating in stirring up the spirit of Cyrus and at the same time He was operating in stirring up the spirit of the chief fathers, and the priests, and the Levites, and of others; and that is a very important and comforting principle. God is "the blessed and only Ruler ... , the King of those that reign, and Lord of those that exercise lordship". (1 Timothy 6:15). He has never abdicated; He is on the throne, although He rules, as it were, behind the scenes. And all that He does in government, if we have eyes to see it, co-ordinates with what He is doing in grace and recovery.

And the Lord Jesus Himself has part in this in our day. He enters into the matter of government where it affects the testimony and the church. He has sat down with His Father in His throne. So, when things affect the testimony, He says as to Jezebel, "I cast her into a bed" (Revelation 2:22). He does not say that the Father would do that, but He would do it, and that has involved great governmental movements in Europe, as well as spiritual movements amongst His people. Then He says, "I have set before thee an opened door, which no one can shut" (Revelation 3:8). That applies, not only to the spiritual door that is opened, but also to the governmental door: the Lord has done it relative to divine operations in grace. He says, "because thou hast a little power, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my

name". The thing is co-ordinated. In the address to Laodicea He says, "I rebuke and discipline as many as I love" (Revelation 3:19). That is the main explanation, one would say, of the last two wars, the discipline of which has been ordered to preserve us in the testimony, if we are in it.

Rem. And so we see God in His overruling power and sovereign movements, taking up heads of governments and making them favourable to His people.

G.R.C. Yes, and I think that would show the need of being up to date in the matter: that is, to understand the present position relative to government. What would you say to that?

Rem. I am sure that is right. We need to move with God in what He is doing in providing conditions and moving heads of government to make them favourable to His people even now. So that what you say, one feels, is important. We should be conscious of what God is doing and take advantage of what He is doing, would you say?

Ques. This stirring up is in accordance with the testimony that already had been given; would you say a word about that?

G.R.C. That is remarkable; you are thinking of Isaiah 45?

Rem. Yes, and the word of Jeremiah.

G.R.C. There are the words of Jeremiah as to the seventy years (Jeremiah 25:11, 12; Jeremiah 29:10), and then Isaiah, years before, had prophesied concerning Cyrus. In Isaiah 44:28, Jehovah said of Cyrus, "He is my shepherd, and he shall perform all my pleasure; even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundations shall be laid". Then in chapter 45 Jehovah calls him "his anointed ... , whose right hand I have holden", and God would "break in pieces the brazen doors, and cut asunder the bars of iron" (verse 2). And in verse 4, Jehovah says, "I surnamed thee, though thou didst not know

me", and the note on "surnamed" says, -- 'The word implies a fondness of affection in the name given'. -- All this was in view of His people knowing that He was "Jehovah, and there is none else; there is no God beside" Him. God's ways in government greatly help us as to that.

Ques. What had you in mind in saying that we need to keep up to date? Had you something more than what is general?

G.R.C. I think we are living in a day which is different from that at the beginning of the revival. According to Ezra 1 "Jehovah stirred up the spirit of Cyrus" and it is remarkable that, concurrently with the raising up of J.N.D., many ruling powers of the western world became particularly favourable to all Christian work and endeavour, as freed from the influence of Jezebel, so that there was great liberty to go forward during last century. But it does not say in Ezra 1 that they made any request to Cyrus. But sixty-nine years after, when Ezra came up, in the reign of Artaxerxes, it says in chapter 7, verse 6, the latter part, "And the king granted him all his request, according to the hand of Jehovah his God upon him". Then thirteen years after that, in chapter 1 of Nehemiah, we find the same king on the throne, and in chapter 2 of Nehemiah, verse 4, "the king said to me, For what does thou make request?". The king was inviting him to make request. I believe that is the kind of day we are living in. God has determined that the dispensation should end in glory, and, in order that nothing should hinder His people, He has brought about an unexampled state of affairs, where rulers in the western world are willing to listen to requests relative to Christian conscience.

Ques. Is this co-ordination seen particularly in the gospel of Luke in relation to the Lord, the census being ordered in order that He should be born in Bethlehem?

G.R.C. Luke 2 is a very interesting passage as to God ruling, because the Lord is introduced in that gospel as "Son of the Highest" (i.e. Most High) (Luke 1:32). And Zacharias, in his praise, appears to call the Lord Himself the Most High, for he says of John the baptist, "And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest; for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to make ready his ways" (Luke 1:76). Thus the title "Most High" comes into Luke, the Lord even saying to His own, "ye shall be sons of the Highest" (Luke 6:35). That title is prominent in Daniel (Daniel 4:17, 25). "The Most High ruleth over the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will". Then in verse 35 "and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth". Luke 2 shows how much God used rulers at the time of the incoming of the One who is called the "Son of the Most High", and the faith that marked the saints at that time was wonderful. Had faith not been active, unbelief would have reasoned that everything was going wrong -- the journey from Nazareth to Bethlehem at such a time, and then the crowning trial that, when they got there, there was no room for them in the inn! It looked as though the Most High was not ruling at all! Yet he was ordering everything, because it was essential that, when the Son of the Most High came, He should be born in the most low circumstances; not only in Bethlehem, but in a manger. The Most High orders everything, but faith alone apprehends it.

Rem. You would see a kind of parallel, too, with Aquila and Priscilla. All the Jews had been ordered to leave Rome and it was a long way from Rome to Corinth and transport would not have been easy; but in the governmental ways of God they were put in touch with Paul, and assembly truth was developed in them and through them.

G.R.C. It shows that we can look at this, not only

from a general standpoint but, as to how it affects each one of us personally. How it would encourage us to be subject!

Rem. Recovery has always been preceded by great inventions on the side of man, Martin Luther by the printing of books, J.N.D. the telegraph and the steam train, and, during Mr. Taylor's life, the development of air travel.

G.R.C. God has, in many instances, ordered such things relative to the testimony. For instance, the Grecian empire, while it was hostile to God's people and used as a disciplinary agent yet, God developed in that empire a language He intended to use for the New Testament Scriptures, a language in which divine thoughts could be expressed accurately. We see similar overruling in current time, in that large areas of the world are acquainted with the English language. Every one in India for instance, who is educated, knows English and speaks and reads it excellently. God is over these things. Then, as regards the Roman empire, the commission was "Go, walk to and fro through the earth", according to Zechariah 6:7; and that Roman empire, under God's ordering, opened up the roads for the early evangelists. Since then the extension of it, in the western world, has opened up vast means of communication and transport, including air travel, the primary purpose for which, under God, is the testimony.

Rem. Cyrus began the period represented by the breast and arms of silver in the image of Daniel 2:32 - 34. The silver would refer to the recognition by authorities of God's rights over His people.

G.R.C. The silver, I think, would be just that. The Persian empire recognised God's rights over His people, and there are governments of this character today; whereas the brass of the Grecian empire indicated that God can, and does, use government as

an instrument of discipline when necessary. The King of the North, the great instrument of discipline, stems from the Grecian empire. We have had two wars in which the northern power has been a disciplinary agent. Russia and Germany, politically, partake of that character. I am speaking of the character, not merely the geography.

Ques. What have you in mind m stressing that the authorities are open for request?

G.R.C. I believe it is a feature of the present time which we should take account of and, in a right sense, take advantage of. It has been founded on the blood of martyrs. The background of Cyrus's attitude and activities would, no doubt, be the faithful stand of Daniel and his companions. Daniel was put into the den of lions by Darius the Mede, who was linked with Cyrus in the conquest of Babylon. He continued, it says, to the first year of Cyrus. So that there was the background of faithfulness, even to death. And then the king, Artaxerxes, who listened to the requests of Ezra and of Nehemiah, was the son of Esther's husband, so that he would be well acquainted with the suffering testimony of Esther and Mordecai, as well as having knowledge of Daniel's history. Artaxerxes was the son of Ahasuerus. These things are the background underlying the state of affairs whereby the authorities were amenable to request in respect of conscience before God, and the position is similar today. We look back to the Reformation and the blood of the martyrs; we look back to the sufferings of saints during the centuries that followed. All these sufferings have been borne, and, in result, we now have a condition of things in the western world where the authorities are prepared to listen to request in connection with the rights of God over His people relative to His house; and I do not think those who suffered and died, would be at all pleased with us if we did not avail ourselves of

the favourable conditions that exist. Nevertheless, we must be prepared to suffer, even as those who have gone before.

Ques. Does it appear that the prime thought in God's mind in handling government is in view of His own thoughts spiritually in connection with His people, that these should have place and development amongst His own, leading to His outstanding thoughts in the assembly?

G.R.C. That is just what I think. So that what He is doing in government is co-ordinated with what He is doing in grace.

Ques. As to the reference to the purpose of God in Ephesians, we have reference to "the good pleasure of his will" (chapter 1 verse 5) and to "the mystery of his will" (verse 9), and then He is spoken of as "him who works all things according to the counsel of his own will" (verse 11). Does that fit in with the thought before us?

G.R.C. I think so. Purpose is one thing, and counsel is another. Purpose is the great objective, the great end in view; but counsel is the way God works to that end; He takes counsel with none but Himself; it is "the counsel of his own will".

Rem. There are two things that are outstanding here, that is, stirring up and helping; Ezra means 'Help'.

G.R.C. It is very good to be reminded of the meaning of the name. He went up sixty-eight years after Zerubbabel to help. Others have gone before and we come in on the line of helps, if we can do anything at all, just to help things forward a bit. And he went up as the result of request. Another thing enters into the matter of request and that is, if it is done rightly, it keeps the testimony of God before the authorities. The testimony originally, no doubt, was rendered through sufferings and martyrdom; and the principle of that enters into the reproach

of Christ, borne by those who render testimony now. "Martyr" means "witness". But, since conditions have been brought to pass where we are at liberty to make request, it is not only that we desire to have freedom to be here for the will of God without hindrance, but it affords an opportunity to keep the testimony of God before those in authority, which is a very great thing. The testimony has been impressed upon them in the past, through the sufferings of the saints, and it is now to be kept before them in a right way, one would judge. We do not know how far-reaching the effect of such testimony will be in influencing them in their general outlook and policies. It is impossible to measure the effect of a true testimony as to God, His grace, and His rights. I believe it is in that way that the Spirit restrains. "There is he who restrains" (2 Thessalonians 2:7). I do not think the Spirit of God acts directly on these men unless they have some measure of faith themselves -- of course, Nebuchadnezzar had and, no doubt, Cyrus had faith as time went on. But I would think the primary way in which the Spirit restrains is through the influence and testimony of the saints. Additionally, of course, there is angelic restraint.

Ques. Does this really indicate to us the necessity of being alert as to the implication of the prophetic word? One was thinking of Jeremiah here, a "hallowed" and "appointed ... prophet" (Jeremiah 1:5) and, if we kept the implications of the prophetic word, our approaches to the authorities would be in line with that.

G.R.C. Would not the prophetic word give us to understand the character of the times in which we live, the kind of state of affairs that God for the moment has brought about? Soon it is all going to change. The church will be taken and the dragon will be "cast out into the earth" and will give his power and throne to the beast (Revelation 12; Revelation 13:2). That

will be a terrible time. But preceding that, God has done a remarkable thing; He has brought about a state of affairs in the western world where authority is willing to listen to the voice of Christian testimony and conscience.

Rem. In regard to the thought of suffering to which you have referred, a distinguished member of the Government, when approached recently, said to the brothers, 'How seriously do you view this matter and what price are you prepared to pay on your side?', or words to that effect, and, when he understood how seriously they viewed it, he viewed it seriously, too.

G.R.C. So that, in the approach, we have to be like Esther, "if I perish, I perish". (Esther 4:16) Nehemiah was "sore afraid". He feared and "prayed to the God of the heavens", even as he made his request. The king asked him for his request. (Nehemiah 2:2 - 4) -- "For what dost thou make request?" Remarkable state of affairs!

Rem. You were speaking of testimony; I was thinking of Mordecai in his speaking to Esther. He said that, if she failed in the testimony, God would use some other person (Esther 4).

G.R.C. Yes. I do not want to say anything wrong in this respect, but it seems to me that we have been rather slow. I think in 1916 it was other Christians who rendered testimony as to Christian conscience relative to military service, as a result of which a conscience clause was inserted in the Military Service Act. But the brethren in France, in testifying recently as to their conscience before God, have been very much confirmed, and the position is entirely changed; the young men are treated well and respected.

Ques. In your opening remarks you made a reference to government and the opened door; are you suggesting that there is facility for making appeal to the government and it is, after all, using an opened door?

G.R.C. Yes. "I have set before thee an opened door, which no one can shut". Ezra and Nehemiah both proved it.

Ques. That would be a prophetic word for us, would it not?

G.R.C. I think so. What do you think?

Rem. I think it is very good; but I wanted to ask this question: does recovery begin with God or with man?

G.R.C. With God, would it not be? How would you say recovery begins?

Rem. I thought so, too: with God; but during the past ages, when there was no church light, God did not move in this way. He did not do so until Mr. Darby's day. Is it that He saw something in J.N.D. and others that He could use?

G.R.C. I wondered whether that was implied in the word to Philadelphia. The Lord says, "I have set before thee an opened door, which no one can shut, because thou hast a little power, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name". Has not the present favourable position been brought to pass because of persons such as that? The Lord says in John 14:23, "If any one love me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our abode with him". He brings it down to an individual. But in Philadelphia He has a company who are doing that, indeed, who have done it: the proof of love for Him, first love. He says, "thou hast a little power, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name". Would that bear on what you are saying?

Rem. Yes, I think so; but I wanted to get the reason, if you can help me, as to why there was no light for many hundreds of years before J.N.D.

Ques. I was wanting to ask our brother if he would say that the government of God enters into these matters. The breakdown, the darkness, in the

church, did it not come upon the church because of unfaithfulness, and does God see the state arising -- it may be with just a few individuals -- that liberates Him, so that He can, as we get in Ezra, cause Cyrus to be favourable and also exercise some of the saints?

Rem. Yes, I think so. In several recoveries in the Old Testament, they do not amount to anything permanent; but, in those recoveries, have we to see the history of the church, God in His government working with men?

G.R.C. I would think that. I suppose you would say that, whatever may come to light and give the Lord a moral basis for action, it is really the result of God's operation in grace.

Rem. So that a very little faith on our part releases immense power on God's part.

G.R.C. That is very encouraging. The Lord said, "If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say to this mountain, Be transported hence there, and it shall transport itself", Matthew 17:20. And in Zechariah 4:7 He speaks of the mountain in connection with Zerubbabel and the building of the house. He addresses the mountain, "Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel thou dost become a plain; and he shall bring forth the headstone with shoutings: Grace, grace unto it!" So Zerubbabel must have had faith, at least as a grain of mustard seed.

Ques. Is recovery in view of God having praise and worship, and being served? It is not just for the benefit of His people. I suppose the book of Ezra would help us as to that.

G.R.C. Therefore the first thing they built was the altar.

Ques. In 1 Samuel 3:3 it says of Samuel that he "lay in the temple of Jehovah" and previous to that it says that "the lamp had not yet gone out". Would we always have to recognise that, through the presence

of the Spirit, however unfaithful the church, the lamp of God has not gone out?

G.R.C. The lamp of God has been there all through the ages.

Ques. What about the vessels brought back from Babylon? Do they represent in any way that the things of God are still intact?

G.R.C. They were things that were to be used in the service, the "chargers of gold" and the "chargers of silver"; the note says they were used "either for the blood of sprinkling or fine flour offerings". Would they represent the saints as available?

Rem. Yes; it seems remarkable, there is no account of any loss in these vessels whilst in Babylon.

G.R.C. No; it does not refer to the major things, of course, such as the ark or the golden altar.

Rem. But more to the saints as available themselves in the service.

G.R.C. Yes; we cannot claim things to be as they were at the beginning. We cannot claim, publicly, to have the ark in our midst. Nevertheless, we do enjoy the Lord's presence, we do have Him in our midst; we are recovered to these things in a spiritual way without any outward pretension, are we not?

Ques. Would it be right to say that the Spirit of God has been here all the while from Pentecost right through the dark ages? He has been active in some sense, has He not?

G.R.C. Yes; but now, in this revival, it was a question of rebuilding the house in order that the lamp-stand, as seen in Zechariah 4, might function according to God. The lamp-stand is seen there "all of gold" in its perfection according to God and it stands related to Zerubbabel completing the house and bringing forth the headstone.

Rem. In regard to recovery, is there a side in which God becomes jealous for His own thoughts, as expressed in Zechariah 1:14 and Zechariah 8:2

G.R.C. Quite so. And therefore, in this recovery, while light has been maintained right through the ages, it is a question of coming back to the full light of God and bringing about conditions where the "seven lamps" are all functioning.

Ques. Will you say, please, why the building of the altar comes first?

G.R.C. That is a most important thing. I think it shows, first of all, that the great point in recovery is that God should be served according to the glory of His Name; and that was the first concern, one would judge, of those who separated in the early part of last century. Their concern first of all was for the altar and the service of God, and that is to be our first concern still, although we have gone on to other things.

Ques. Would the law of Moses, the man of God, bear on the things being restored according to the full light of God?

G.R.C. I think so. They went right back to the beginning and they started at the top, that is, "the seventh month". That was how this revival began. In contrast to earlier revivals, it started with the full light of Paul's ministry. Those who separated governed themselves by Paul, not only the Corinthian aspect of his ministry, but also the higher levels of it, the truth of Christ and the assembly and of the Headship of Christ, and I would link that with the seventh month.

Ques. It says in the beginning of chapter 3 that "the people gathered together as one man to Jerusalem". Would that suggest the great need for a unified state amongst the brethren if there is to be an answer in service to God?

G.R.C. I think so; they were in their cities, but they "gathered together as one man to Jerusalem"; that is, we have the assembly before us in its greatness according to divine purpose, the universal view.

Ques. Would the altar stress the moral features

of the service of God, those that are foundational as connected with Moses, the man of God? And then you have the higher levels, perhaps, connected with David, king of Israel, the service of the priests with the trumpets and the Levites, "according to the directions of David king of Israel" (see verse 10).

Ques. Is it not remarkable that in verse 3 of chapter 1 it says, "Whosoever there is among you of all his people"? Does that suggest that every one of us is to be vitally in it? "His God be with him", it says. Is it not a challenge to every one of us to be practical as to how we do stand vitally in the matter, as to whether we are all pulling our weight?

G.R.C. The fact that the altar is set up first would test us as to that, because it says, "are not they who eat the sacrifices in communion with the altar?" (1 Corinthians 10:18). The first thing we need to think about as to ourselves is: are we in communion with the altar? As regards those who separated at the beginning, the first thing that was before them, as far as one understands, was the Lord's supper and the service of God, in the light of Paul's ministry, the seventh month. It was beginning at the top level. I believe that is where this revival has differed from all others, it began at the top.

Ques. There is the building of the altar and there is the setting of the altar on its base; would you say a word on that, please?

G.R.C. As far as I know, a base is not mentioned, as regards the building of the altar, in Exodus, Kings or Chronicles. But the bottom of the altar (or, the word might read, the 'foundation' of the altar) is referred to as the place where the blood of the sin offering was poured out.

Ques. Does that go back to the work of Christ?

G.R.C. I think so; it says the blood of the sin offering was poured out "at the bottom of the altar". (Exodus 29:12, Leviticus 4:7, and elsewhere).

Ques. Was not the great day of atonement in the seventh month? And did not the beloved brethren in the early days make much of the work of Christ and the sufferings of Christ, and ought not we to carry that forward?

G.R.C. We ought. And so I think we ought, in the little time we have left, to consider the altar and the seventh month. There is the challenge as to being in communion with the altar. Fellowship became an important thing initially and still is. Communion with the altar, as I understand it, is a very positive matter; it is not only negative. Communion with the altar involves that we present our bodies a living sacrifice. Christ offered Himself on the altar, He offered Himself without spot to God, the supreme sacrifice; and we profess week by week to be in "the communion of the body of the Christ" (1 Corinthians 10:16). Paul says, "are not they who eat the sacrifices in communion with he altar?" Well, the only way to be really in communion with the altar is to present our bodies. We are not really in communion with the altar unless our bodies are presented "a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable b God" (Romans 12:1) for His will. That is what marked the early brethren. They were here for the will of God.

Ques. What lies behind the second part of verse 3, "And they set the altar on its base; for fear was upon them because of the people of the countries"? Would it be that the setting up of the altar, and being in accord with it, would be the only way of safety?

G.R.C. They would have Divine protection, would they not?

Ques. In relation to what you said, there are not only the offering; according to the ordinances but the voluntary offerings; are you suggesting that we might not only see the position established, but be liberally and voluntarily in the matter?

G.R.C. That is it; we should be wholeheartedly in communion with the altar.

Ques. Is that indicated in chapter 8 as they come up? There was an added matter of "two vessels of shining copper, precious as gold". (verse 27). Does that seem to be an added matter that comes up from the captivity, that would be in correspondence with what you are saying?

G.R.C. I think so, and therefore in the present recovery 2 Timothy 2 came into great prominence. That chapter bears on the "two vessels of shining copper, precious as gold". It is a question of withdrawing from iniquity and we have to see the primary setting of iniquity in that chapter. It is the evil in the Christian profession, especially the evil teaching. The immediate context is Hymenaeus and Philetus, who were teaching that the resurrection had taken place already and were overthrowing the faith of some (2 Timothy 2:17, 18). Now, what marked the beginning of this revival was withdrawal from iniquity (verse 19), from all the false teaching, the heresies, that had come into Christendom. That is a basic matter and we are not in communion with the altar, of course, unless we have withdrawn. Is that right?

Rem. Yes, indeed. I was wondering whether it brought into prominence what we are, as over against what we may be able to say. In the chapter where they came to Daniel in a body, he did not say one word. And yet it says that "the king ... set his heart on Daniel to save him; and he laboured till the going down of the sun to deliver him". (Daniel 6:14). Do you think Romans 13:3, where it says, "practise what is good, and thou shalt have praise from it", is not only keeping the laws, but also being true to what we are in the presence of God, which will be a testimony to the authority?

G.R.C. Very good; so that, if we are really faithful

to the testimony, we shall prove God using the authorities on our behalf.

Rem. "God's minister to thee for Good". (Romans 13:4).

Ques. Do you think that Paul and Silas in prison in Philippi were "two vessels of shining copper", bringing the truth into Europe?

G.R.C. Yes, and in this connection I think we may find, as we proceed, that the wall that is built later is a question of what we are, not merely what we say.

Ques. Is it suggestive that the burnt-offering is so stressed in connection with the setting up of the altar? And then, do the further verses we read hear on yielding up of our bodies? The Lord Jesus, in the burnt-offering aspect, was committed to the will of God, and is that same committal in single-eyed devotedness to mark us?

G.R.C. It is; and no one who presents his body to God a living sacrifice could remain linked up with iniquity according to 2 Timothy 2. So the two things go together. In Ezra 2:59 there were those who "could not shew their fathers' house, nor their seed, whether they were of Israel", and, in verse 62, "These sought their genealogical register, but they were not found; therefore were they, as polluted, removed from the priesthood". Did not Mr. Taylor say that we prove our genealogy by acting on 2 Timothy 2? And that is what the early brethren did and what we would give one another credit for doing. We have withdrawn from the iniquity of Christendom, we prove our genealogy that way, and it is by continuing on that line that we are in communion with the altar. We have an altar, but who knows anything about it? It is the Christian altar, it belongs to all Christians, but who understands it? Only those who have withdrawn from iniquity.

Ques. It does not say that they built the base of

the altar. Would that connect with "the firm foundation of God stands", 2 Timothy 2:19?

G.R.C. I think so. "The Lord knows those that are his".

Rem. With reference to the altar and its base, it says in Psalm 87, "His foundation is in the mountains of holiness".

Ques. While it says here that these offerings are "voluntary", yet is it a little remarkable that it says, "as the duty of every day required"?

G.R.C. So that we must not say too much about the voluntary side. Everything is done, in our dispensation, in the liberty of sonship; but there is that which every day requires. "Voluntary" is excess but every day requires the morning and evening burnt-offerings. And then there were the feast-days, which required more; and the remarkable thing was, they went back to all the requirements of the seventh month. "They held the feast of tabernacles as it is written, and offered daily burnt-offerings by number, according to the ordinance, as the duty of every day required; and afterwards the continual burnt-offering, and those of the new moons, and of all the set feasts of Jehovah that were consecrated", then it brings in the willing offerings; those "that willingly offered". Then it says, "From the first day of the seventh month they began to offer up burnt-offerings to Jehovah". It is important to understand "the seventh month". The present revival began, as it were, with the seventh month, with Paul's ministry, which completes the word of God, gives fulness to it all.

Ques. Would you help us as to the seventh month? We have, perhaps, some little understanding of the feast of tabernacles, but you do not come to that immediately in the seventh month.

G.R.C. I think the first day of the seventh month, which was the feast of the "blowing of trumpets" (Leviticus 23:24), as applied to our day, refers to Paul's

ministry and his announcing of all the counsel of God, and I think something of that governed the beginning of this revival. And I do not want to go back to the beginning merely, because we are to continually expand in all that the altar means and the service proper to it and the food provided on it. The altar is the place of food, food for God and food for the saints. Fellowship, food, and the service of God all link with the altar; but all the services and activities are to be carried out in the full light of Paul's ministry. We begin with the blowing of trumpets -- the full outline, I believe.

Rem. The first day of the seventh month would also bring in the new moon, would it not? There would be an answer, in principle, amongst the saints to the full shining of Christ; divine thoughts coming out in their fulness in Him now taking shape in the saints.

G.R.C. Yes, and it was not like the first day of an ordinary month. The first day of the seventh month was the fulness of things, as you say. It is "a memorial of blowing of trumpets". Some link that with the gospel; but it is not so, because in Leviticus 23 the gospel is connected with Pentecost. It says, after speaking of the feast of weeks or Pentecost, "And ye shall make proclamation on that same day" (verse 21). That is the gospel testimony; that is like Acts 2, the gospel testimony which goes out from moral conditions, represented by the feast of weeks. But built on that moral foundation of the feast of weeks we have the seventh month, and that is the fulness of Paul's ministry.

Rem. I was thinking it required great courage, because the apostle says, "I have not shrunk from announcing to you all the counsel of God". (Acts 20:27). So that, if we are to maintain what is proper to the seventh month, we need spiritual courage not to drop down to any lower level.

G.R.C. The revival began on the level of Christ and the assembly; Christ's Headship and the Spirit here; and we must continue on that level, and continually develop in what belongs to the seventh month.

Ques. Is it not remarkable that a very considerable part of the Mosaic law bore on the seventh month? In Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy, the seventh month is referred to.

G.R.C. Furthermore, Solomon brought up the ark at the feast of tabernacles in the seventh month. 2 Chronicles 5, where unison in praise was brought about, was in the seventh month.

Rem. We can hardly hope to understand these things in a day of recovery, if we do not pursue the truth as it was originally given to us, as set out in Paul's ministry.

G.R.C. Paul's ministry is the key to all Scripture. It does not mean we are ignoring the rest of Scripture; but you never get the right bearing of other scriptures if you have not an outline of sound words according to Paul.

Rem. So is it significant that in Nehemiah $ ministry comes in in that very connection? At the beginning of the seventh month you have "the open place that was before the water-gate", and you have "Ezra the scribe" and "Ezra the priest", and you have the Levites mingling with the people, so that they might understand that "the joy of Jehovah is your strength".

G.R.C. Speaking in a general way, believers not governed by Paul's ministry have no living ministry, have they? Some of them mourn on account of it, but they are not prepared to move into the moral circumstances where they would come into the gain of the present ministry of the Spirit.

Ques. And would you, perhaps, connect the thought of heavenly-mindedness with the fulness of

Paul's ministry? You have referred to those who separated earlier; were they not distinctly marked by heavenly-mindedness and might not what is spoken of as the raising of the standard of living tend to make us earthly-minded and to give up our heavenly citizenship?

G.R.C. I think that is one reason why God has allowed the cloud of Russian domination to hang over the western world. It is the northern power, the disciplinary power, and God allows that cloud to hang over the western world to save us, if we can be saved, from earth dwelling. Without that cloud, where should we be? Therefore we ought to thank God; we ought to be intelligent as to what He is doing in government, so that we can rightly thank and praise and worship Him for it. Of course, if our state were better and we were more trustworthy, God might be free to relieve that pressure and our brethren in the East would benefit. So that we have to take it home to ourselves as to why the pressure should remain so long over brethren in the East. If our state were better, God might be free to lift the burden. Is that right? Rein. I think so.

Ques. Do we reach the culmination of all that pressure in the third psalm "Upon the Gittith", Psalm 84? As "Passing through the valley of Baca", they understand what suffering is, but there is a going "from strength to strength: each one will appear before God in Zion".

G.R.C. "The highways" are in their hearts, the highways of divine principles, and that is what should mark each of us.

Ques. Does the blowing of trumpets seem to signalise a period of liberty for the people of God? You are connecting it with Paul's ministry, the heavenly side of things. Has that to be borne in mind?

G.R.C. It has, and, following that, you have the

day of atonement, which Paul alone gives the scope of. It is not the death of Christ from the standpoint of bearing our sins and setting us free from Egypt; it is the death of Christ as effecting reconciliation for God, the reconciliation of all things, as well as of ourselves at the present time; "you ... now has it reconciled" (Colossians 1:21, 22). And Paul alone gives us the great scope of the day of atonement. It would be good if we all followed up each of Paul's references to it; for instance: in Romans chapters 3 and 4, 2 Corinthians chapter 5, Colossians chapter l, Ephesians chapter 2, and Hebrews. It is a great thing to follow up the scope of the day of atonement. There is nothing more liberating. It will give us liberty of soul and great expanse of outlook and it will prepare us for the feast of tabernacles, which is the fulness of God's purpose. But the fulness of God's purpose, the bringing in and filling of heaven and earth with families, has, as its moral basis, the sacrificial work of Christ, the great work of reconciliation.

Ques. And does not the day of atonement come in specially on the failure of priesthood and would that have a special bearing upon us today? The ministry of Paul has a special bearing on the day of recovery.

G.R.C. So that we should appreciate it especially in this day. The full scope of the work of Christ did not come in until Paul, it did not come in in the Pentecostal setting. There was failure in the Pentecostal setting with Ananias and Sapphira and with regard to the widows; and there was also the rejection of Christ by the Jews. But then Paul brings out the truth of the great day of atonement, its bearing on the whole universe.

Ques. Does John's ministry come in to help us in the last days to get back to Paul? I was thinking of how he speaks of dwelling conditions which seem to be much connected with the idea of the seventh

month, the feast of tabernacles; is that important basically amongst us?

G.R.C. Very good: the last, the great day of the feast. John's ministry would bring us to the eighth day of the feast of tabernacles, the eternal day.

SECOND READING

Ezra 5:1, 2; Ezra 6:14 - 22; Zechariah 3:4, 5; Zechariah 4:6 - 14; Zechariah 6:11

G.R.C. These scriptures deal with the building of the house, and the prophecy of Zechariah indicates what is in mind, indeed it brings out features proper to the house of God: first of all, that it is to be marked by festivity and joy. Joshua was clothed with festival-robes (chapter 3); then, in chapter 4, it is in view of the full light of God shining, the "lamp stand" functioning; and thirdly, it is in view of the priesthood functioning in a glorious way. That prophecy was to energise the builders, because, if the house were built, they would come into the gain of what was prophesied, the festivity of the house, the full light shining, and, in the power of that festivity and as governed by the full light of God, priestly service would proceed according to the Divine thought. In chapter 6: 11, Joshua the high priest was crowned. It was not to make anything of him personally, but to give us an idea of how God would enhance and glorify the priesthood, for His own Name's sake, in these last days.

So that there are certain features which are not found at the beginning -- "festival-robes" and "crowns" on the head of the high priest. Thus the close of the dispensation is marked by the priesthood functioning in an enhanced way. It is questionable whether there has ever been anything like it. So it is good to see what God has in mind in these days of recovery; and, if we are to know the joy of these things, and are to reach the divine end in priesthood, we must be diligent as builders. While in Ezra it is viewed as a completed matter, yet in our day things are continuous, the different features of the truth run on concurrently,

so that we can never say we have finished building.

Ques. Would you say why the joy of the seventh month is afforded the people before the house came into being? Would it be on the line of support and energy?

G.R.C. I would think so; therefore the truth of 1 Timothy was written for the Ephesian company. Ephesians would specially give us the fulness of the seventh month. Colossians enlarges on the day of atonement, or reconciliation; but Ephesians gives us the filling of things. There is the reconciling of all things in Colossians and the filling of all things in Ephesians, which would link more with the feast of tabernacles, the harvest gathered in. But then, in the light of that, we can take up the responsible side of the house of God down here.

Ques. Does the first scripture suggest that this building is the result of the prophetic word?

G.R.C. Yes; the building had ceased after the foundation was laid, and I think you can see how early in the present revival the foundation was laid. Romans 7 and 8 were very prominent in the teaching, and the word of the cross, all with a view to getting the right foundation. "For other foundation can no man lay besides that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ". (1 Corinthians 3:11). It took much ministry and teaching to clear away the rubbish to get down to the right foundation, which is Jesus Christ. It involved years of ministry, and we still need it; but it marked that day in a special way after the altar was set up, as it were. There was great work in connection with the foundation. But then, in Ezra, the work ceased, and it appeared to be on account of opposition. Yet the prophet Haggai, when he arouses the people, does not give the cause of their stopping as external opposition, but indicates that it was because of their state. There was opposition, but they did not resist the opposers and face the issues, because of their

state. Therefore they did not prove how God would have come in for them. They were building their own "wainscoted houses". "Is it time for you that ye should dwell in your wainscoted houses, while this house lieth waste?" (Haggai 1:4). So Haggai is sent to arouse them from their lethargic state, and we need such prophecy all along the line, because we are apt to get occupied with our own things -- Paul says, "For all seek their own things, not the things of Jesus Christ". (Philippians 2:21) -- occupied with our own houses and neglecting the house of God. So the prophets came; Haggai's searching word stirred them up, so that they feared Jehovah and got back to the work and Zechariah encouraged them, showing how magnificent the objectives in view were. And so they "began to build" and, after that, the "mountain" of opposition became "a plain" (Zechariah 4:7).

Ques. Does the service of the prophets indicate the constant need throughout the time of the recovery for ministry, and that that should have a prophetic edge to it and that there should be unity in it?

G.R.C. I am sure that is right. It is interesting that Haggai and Zechariah interweave in their prophecies. In the early part of Zechariah's prophecy, if you look at the dates, they were serving at the same time and, while their prophecies are so different, yet both were necessary. The ministries of the two men were complementary.

Rem. It is very interesting that they prophesied in different months in the second year of Darius (Haggai 1:1; Zechariah 1:1). There was opportunity for both of them and yet they were in unity.

G.R.C. Quite so, and we need to learn team-work.

The dispensation began with the twelve men who knew how to work together.

Ques. Is there some link with this in Acts 16?

The first ministry in Europe was Paul's, and then immediately there was the opposition to the building

by the "spirit of Python", but the building went on, because the jailor was secured.

G.R.C. Lydia was secured and her house, and the jailor and his house. Building has gone on ever since in Europe and especially in this revival in which we are.

Ques. What do you make of the fact that the building ceases; then, on account of the service of the prophets, it begins again before the evil report that had reached the authorities was settled?

G.R.C. Does it not show that faith was now active? It says, they "feared before Jehovah", in Haggai 1:12; they feared. And the result of fearing Jehovah is that we do not fear men. And so, in the fear of God and in faith, they go forward and they prove what the Lord says, that "If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say to this mountain, Be transported".

Ques. Is the initiative now restored to the people? That is, they are not waiting for the authorities to take action before they act.

G.R.C. The authorities had already taken action in Cyrus, had they not? God had stirred the spirit of Cyrus and the writing was there. It only had to be referred to, but it was the local authorities which were hindering them here.

Rem. So in chapter 4 they seemed to lose the initiative. They accepted the ruling of the local authorities apparently and the work ceased.

G.R.C. Quite so; but then, Haggai tells us why it ceased: because they were looking after their own 'ceiled' houses (1: 4, footnote). That was the real reason; otherwise they would have gone forward, counting on God's help through the authorities, which had already been given.

Rem. And the letter that hindered the building and brought to light the state of the remnant, came into the hands, did it not, of a usurper, who was only

there a matter of months? All that shows how God operates in relation to the state of His people.

G.R.C. God soon removed that man.

Ques. Is it comforting in regard to what takes place that God chooses His own time sovereignly? He has His prophets in reserve, but He is working with the state of the people, so that there is an immediate answer, when God has worked from His own side, so that His thoughts are carried through at once.

Ques. In Ezra 5:1 it says, "in the name of the God of Israel did they prophesy to them". Would that suggest to your mind that, in the day of recovery, the prophetic word is intended to embrace God's original thoughts?

G.R.C. I think so; it is "in the name of the God of Israel" and it is the name of God which affects us in these last days; we can go forward in that name. The final prophet, Malachi, speaks much of the name, "For from the rising of the sun even unto its setting my name shall be great among the nations; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure oblation" (Malachi 1:11). The name of God has become exceedingly precious to us.

Ques. So has he, in speaking of the God of Israel, the whole of Israel in mind, although it says that they "prophesied to the Jews that were in Judah and Jerusalem"? God's thought is that there should be full restoration of all Israel and the enjoyment of their place in the presence of God.

G.R.C. So that we are to embrace in our affections the whole body on earth, and that is emphasised in chapter 6 after the house is completed, because it says in verse 17, "for a sin-offering for all Israel; twelve he-goats, according to the number of the tribes of Israel". They have got the whole twelve tribes in their affections, and they were building this house relative to the whole twelve tribes.

Ques. Does not 2 Timothy show that the general trend of things publicly in days of recovery tends to discouragement? Even Timothy has to be told to rekindle the gift of God which is in him (2 Timothy 1:6). Do you think that the prophetic ministry here is serving to that end, that we be kept going on with the work?

G.R.C. Quite so. 1 Corinthians 14:3 tells us that prophecy is for "edification, and encouragement, and consolation".

Ques. Is there an interesting touch, too, that the prophets did not only prophesy, but they helped them? They got alongside them on the practical side as well.

G.R.C. And that is what we should all do, we should all be in the work. There is no thought of clericalism, we are all in the work. Whatever we may have from the Lord, it does not alter the fact that we are all members of one another and members of the body, and it is a question of the body being edified. We are all to be in it, because the body underlies the house. The building goes on all the time; edifying means building. The simile of the body is an organic simile, an organism, and it is the secret side of things. As we are set together bodywise and are building one another up bodywise, the house comes into view, we are publicly "built together for a habitation of God in the Spirit". (Ephesians 2:22). We must never leave out the idea of the body in connection with the building operations in the New Testament. There was no such thought in the Old Testament; the body belongs to the New Testament, "in the power of one Spirit we have all been baptised into one body" (1 Corinthians 12:13), and that underlies the truth of the house. Is that right?

Rem. It is very true, but we do not appreciate it much. The tendency is to individualise things, you know.

G.R.C. It is; to individualise things and become

independent in thought, or else to put the gifts above the body. But the body is the great thought, the assembly is greater than any gift. Zechariah was a young man; his name means 'Whom Jah remembers'; a young man full of questions and, because he was full of questions in a right way and full of inquiry, he became a great help to the brethren; but I am sure, as a young man, he never would have put himself above the assembly, above the "bowl" of oil, which was on top (Zechariah 4:2).

Ques. Is it interesting that the first thing referred to in Ephesians 4 in regard to "the ministry" and "the edifying of the body of Christ" is, "until we all arrive at the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God" (verses 12, 13)? It is not the unity of the Spirit there, but of the faith. I was thinking how important the unity of the faith is. It is what is held in faith, is it not, amongst the saints? Therefore, if I act in matters without faith, on whosoever authority I act, it is not arriving, in any sense, "at the unity of the faith", is it?

G.R.C. So the apostle says, "Not that we rule over your faith, but are fellow-workmen of your joy" (2 Corinthians 1:24). The skill in ministry is so to put souls in touch with God, that they arrive at the thing in the faith of their own souls with God. Is that not so?

Rem. That is how I understand it; otherwise, what results is "babes tossed and carried about by every wind of that teaching" (Ephesians 4:14).

G.R.C. Whereas, if souls are put in touch with God so that they act in the faith of their own souls before God, and we are all arriving at the same thing in the faith of our souls with God, then unity of the faith, relative to current exercises, is effected.

Rem. In chapter 6, the prosperity and completion of the house are intimately connected with the prophesying of these two men. Is it not the ministry bringing about that state? If things are to go on, we

need to be constantly alert as to what the Lord is saying; through prophecy the work is started and completed.

G.R.C. "Through the prophesying"; it is continuous.

Rem. In that connection, the word in Haggai is helpful, that "Zerubbabel ... and Joshua ... and all the remnant of the people, hearkened to the voice of Jehovah their God"; and then immediately it says that "Jehovah stirred up the spirit of Zerubbabel ... and the spirit of Joshua ... and the spirit of all the remnant of the people", and the effect of that is that the word comes to Zerubbabel, Joshua, and all the people that they must work together, "for I am with you, .. and my Spirit", too. (Haggai 1:12, 14; Haggai 2:4, 5).

G.R.C. They hearkened to the voice and there was a stirring up. God had stirred them at the outset but the energy had not been maintained; but how effective the prophetic word was!

Rem. There is no jealousy, no rivalry, no competition, in this building. The prophets helped; they are not distinguished when it says, "the prophets of God, who helped them". Do you not think it is important for us, every one, to recognise that we are all connected with one truth and one work and one body and one house?

G.R.C. We are all labouring with the same great objective in mind, that is, the edification of the body, because the gifts in Ephesians 4 are "until we all arrive at the unity of the faith" and so on, and then it says, "that we may be no longer babes ... but .. grow up to him in all things, who is the head", and then refers to the body functioning, "according to the working in its measure of each one part". The building is largely a question of helping one another, the gifts helping us, if we are each functioning bodywise, there will be publicly an expression of God's

house, persons "built together for a habitation of God in the Spirit".

Ques. It is Haggai who says, "The word that I covenanted with you when ye came out of Egypt, and my Spirit, remain among you: fear ye not". (Haggai 2:5). Is there a suggestion in that of both the unity of the faith and the unity of the Spirit?

G.R.C. The word would help us towards the unity of the faith; but the Spirit remains with us, so that the unity of the Spirit is a subsisting matter which we are to keep. We are to keep the unity of the Spirit while we are arriving at the unity of the faith, because, I suppose, there will never be a time when it can be said that we have all fully arrived at the unity of the faith. The gifts are always operating with a view to our arriving at the unity of the faith -- especially relative to fresh movements. Meantime we are "to keep the unity of the Spirit in the uniting bond of peace" and it shows us how to do it -- "with all lowliness and meekness, with long-suffering, bearing with one another in love; using diligence to keep the unity of the Spirit in the uniting bond of peace". (Ephesians 4:2, 3). Thus we are preserved while moving on to the unity of the faith.

Ques. How does the word in Jude come in in that connection, in regard to "the faith once delivered to the saints" (Jude 3)?

G.R.C. The faith once delivered to the saints is the whole system of Christian truth, is it not?

Rem. Yes. I was wondering how you regarded the arriving at the unity of the faith, as compared with that statement. It is looked at there as something completely handed over to us.

G.R.C. It is, from that standpoint. The Christian faith -- the whole system of Christian doctrine and revelation -- has been entrusted to us. If the faith is attacked, we must contend earnestly.

Ques. What is "the unity of the Spirit"?

G.R.C. It says, "There is one body and one Spirit"; there could not be disunity, could there, connected with the Spirit?

Rem. I was wondering if Mr. Darby's note as to keeping "the unity of the Spirit in the uniting bond of peace" would help. He says, "It is not only 'bond', but the 'bond-together'. It is not the power of union -- that is the Holy Spirit; but the practically uniting in fact, as amongst men on earth".

G.R.C. That is to say, "the uniting bond of peace" is the practical uniting in fact, but the unity of the Spirit subsists?

Ques. What bearing has 1 Corinthians 12:28 on what we are saying? "And God has set certain in the assembly: first, apostles; secondly, prophets; thirdly, teachers; then miraculous powers;" and so on; but it is first, second, and third.

G.R.C. Gifts are graded there, showing their relative importance, and they are set in the assembly; but they subserve the assembly, they really serve the assembly like the Levites of old who encamped around the tabernacle and served it (Numbers 1:50).

Ques. Would the gifts in Ephesians 4 be intensified in comparison with 1 Corinthians 12? It says, "and he has given some apostles, and some prophets, and some evangelists, and some shepherds and teachers"; would it not only be the gift, but the persons who have the gifts?

G.R.C. I think it refers to the persons.

Ques. Does the end of Ephesians 2, "in whom all the building fitted together increases to a holy temple in the Lord; in whom ye also are built together for a habitation of God in the Spirit", allow for the work proceeding now, the work of building going on now and persons coming into it?

G.R.C. That is what I think. Those the Lord has given are for "the work of the ministry, .. until we all arrive". But they are not the only builders;

they are building with the others, but we are all to be builders, are we not?

Rem. And then, I was thinking of the verse in Ezra 6, "they prospered through the prophesying of Haggai the prophet and Zechariah the son of Iddo. And they built and completed it". The building went on under the prophetic word, did it not?

G.R.C. It did, and all the people were engaged in the building, Zerubbabel taking the lead.

Ques. And does the building take on testimonial value? It is on account of the building that the whole question is raised as to the rights of God in the matter, why they built and who authorised them, and that takes them back beyond Darius to Cyrus, who issued the decree.

G.R.C. Quite so. The building of the house is a testimonial matter. The body is the secret side, which underlies it. But, if we are set together bodywise, then we shall be set together publicly house-wise in a testimonial way.

Ques. And is there a sense in which we are to attend to the completing of the house, especially in the closing days of the dispensation? It says that "this house was finished" and the date is given; I wondered if it paved the way for the introduction of the positive features of the house and the shining forth of them in their own lustre.

G.R.C. And so in Zechariah 4 it speaks of the finishing, does it not? In verse 7, "he shall bring forth the headstone with shoutings: Grace, grace unto it!" And then the following verses, "The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this house; and his hands shall finish it". A wonderful promise! How much that must have strengthened Zerubbabel in going on with the work, that his hands were going to finish it! And that is what God would say to us. Zerubbabel is the kingly element. Among the saints there is what is kingly and priestly. Zerubbabel is the

king, the kingly element, Joshua the priestly element; they are not divorced in Christianity, "kings and priests" (Revelation 5:10) is God's thought. But God would strengthen the kingly element, "the tribe of Juda", to go forward with the building, and that does not refer simply to gifted men or prophets; that is the element of moral power amongst the saints.

Ques. Is the touch in chapter 6: 14 interesting, that it now becomes a matter of the commandment of God rather than the commandment of the king? "And they built and completed it according to the commandment of Cyrus, and Darius, and Artaxerxes king of Persia". The instrumental way that God had worked is submerged there in relation to God Himself in His operations, do you think?

G.R.C. Quite so. "The commandment of the God of Israel" is the great command, and what our brother was saying as to completing is so important, because it is a question of bringing forth "the headstone with shoutings". So we can measure how far we have got towards completion by the extent to which the headstone is in view. The foundation is laid, which is Jesus Christ; but then Jesus Christ is also the headstone. The whole building takes character from Him, there is nothing but Jesus Christ in it. And what about the headstone? Has Christ that place amongst us yet? Is He really the headstone? He was not at Corinth, they were going in partisanship after certain leaders, so that the thought of Christ as the headstone was far away.

Ques. Is that why the prophet Haggai says, "Go up to the mountain and bring wood" (Haggai 1:8)? Has the material to come from the Man who has "ascended up"? The gifts in Ephesians 4 come from Him, "with a view to the work of the ministry, ... until we all arrive at the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God".

G.R.C. You were thinking of the exercise involved in going up to the mountain?

Rem. Yes, and not only that, but where we get our material from for the building and as to the character of the building, what it is we build with. It must be impressions of the Man, according to the foundation which is laid.

G.R.C. So we get impressions of Christ, as you say, the Man "who has also ascended up above all the heavens" (Ephesians 4:10). The ministry comes from Him; but then, the material we have to work with is the saints, we have one another. But we are to look upon one another from the elevated standpoint, relative to the work of God in our souls.

Ques. Would the headstone involve collective and corporate answer in the saints; not simply light or certain persons, but the whole structure befits the headstone?

G.R.C. That is right, and what a wonderful thing, if that is so, to bring in the headstone! The structure is fitted for Him. And then it says, "he shall bring forth the headstone". It seems to me we are to have nothing less before us in this revival than that, to "bring forth the headstone with shoutings". We are all exultant to think of Christ having His true place.

Ques. Does not that stress the importance of festivity and joy that you mentioned at the beginning? I noticed in Ezra 6 they kept it "with joy; for Jehovah had made them joyful". And then the festivity you come into in Zechariah! Do we not need to see that that is what God has in His mind? Answering to the prophetic word is not a matter of sorrow, it is a matter of joy, is it not?

G.R.C. Yes, the prophetic word often has to disclose our state; but the normal idea in prophecy is edification, encouragement, and consolation. While there is the negative part of prophecy in the Old

Testament, you will find abundant encouragement and consolation.

Ques. In regard of what you were saying as to moral power, it says in Ezra 6:20, "For the priests and the Levites had purified themselves as one man". But then, it goes on to say in verse 21, "And the children of Israel that were come back out of captivity, and all such as had separated themselves to them from the filthiness of the nations of the land". Does it suggest this increase that is going on and is taken up, in a sense, spontaneously amongst the saints? But then, there are others brought into it. We should not think that the tests of the present day are going to diminish what is for the Lord amongst His people.

G.R.C. The word "purification" has rightly become current amongst us; "the priests and the Levites had purified themselves as one man: they were all pure". Now, the Corinthians had gone a certain way, they had proved themselves "pure" in a certain matter (2 Corinthians 7:11). There were other things for them to go on with, but the word "pure" is used, they had proved themselves pure. That is the great thing, to prove ourselves pure.

Ques. Is there not a certain sense in which there is a test as to whether this matter of purification is present with us? I was thinking of the reference in John 2 to "the water-vessels" being filled up. As they are filled up, what is drawn out of them is not water, is it? It is wine. So you do not pour water on people all the time. From a truly purified person, what comes out is wine, is it not?

G.R.C. I think so; and therefore Zechariah would be an example of that. He brought out the wine of encouragement; his own heart full of the visions he had seen, he brings them out in his ministry. What you say is very important. If we are purified persons we shall have wine to administer.

Rem. In the last verse of chapter 6 of Ezra, it says "and they kept the feast of unleavened bread seven days with joy; for Jehovah had made them joyful".

G.R.C. We little understand the way of joy. John the baptist gives us the prescription for joy. John the baptist is a sample purified man.

Ques. It is striking that it follows the keeping of the passover here, does it not?

G.R.C. Yes, and John's witness is to "the Lamb of God" (John 1:29, 36). And then there was a reasoning between his disciples and a Jew about purification (John 3:25), but John himself is the answer to the discussion, because he comes forward as a sample of a purified person. He says, "He must increase, but I must decrease", and, having heard "the voice of the bridegroom", he says, "this my joy then is fulfilled". (John 3:29, 30). That is, he was like a water-vessel, he was emptied of self in the light of Christ. He was filled with water, purified as to his object and motives, and therefore he was filled with wine. He says so: "my joy then is fulfilled". He was a water-vessel, but the water had been turned to wine and he was full of joy, full of wine.

Rem. The water-vessels were "filled ... up to the brim". There was not room left for anything else. The word having its full application, there was no room for self or flesh of any kind whatsoever, and does not that result in a person like John the baptist who speaks "out of the abundance of the heart" (Luke 6:45)?

G.R.C. Yes; so that he gives us the prescription, as it were, for joy. Naturally we do not understand the way of joy. The way of joy is by way of purification.

Ques. Is there a parallel with this in the coming of the Spirit in Acts 2, "And there appeared to them parted tongues, as of fire, and it sat upon each one of them. And they were all filled with the Holy

Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues as the Spirit gave to them to speak forth"?

G.R.C. The mockers said, "They are full of new wine", which was true in a spiritual sense and they had undoubtedly been, in a spiritual way, keeping the feast of unleavened bread during those ten days during which they had been waiting for the Holy Spirit to come. They were like the two wave-loaves, baken with leaven (Leviticus 23:17); leaven was not working.

Rem. According to the record, this is the last time the passover was celebrated in the Old Testament; it would seem to be the best.

G.R.C. That is interesting. We are apt to think the feast of unleavened bread is a long-faced matter, are we not? But it is a feast and it is to be celebrated, and here they celebrate it "with joy; for Jehovah had made them joyful". It is a joyful thing to be in a company where leaven is inactive.

Ques. As well as our joy, is there not a reference to Divine joy in Zechariah 4? "Yea, they shall rejoice -- even those seven -- and shall see the plummet" and so on. Is there a special reference, do you think, to the Spirit in that?

G.R.C. I think so. The "seven eyes" are in the foundation, according to Zechariah 3:9, "upon one stone are seven eyes", as though the Spirit is watching to see that everything that goes into the structure is in keeping with the foundation, and He rejoices to "see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel". That is, Zerubbabel was "a workman" who cut "in a straight line the word of truth". (2 Timothy 2:15).

Rem. That is an important matter for us at the present time.

G.R.C. You will notice in Ezra 3:9 it speaks of "the workmen in the house of God". There were those who went "to superintend the workmen", and in 2 Timothy 2 Paul exhorts Timothy to "Strive

diligently to present thyself approved to God, a workman that has not to be ashamed, cutting in a straight line the word of truth". The plummet has to come into use, because I can say true things, but, if they are out of balance, it is not the truth. As we should say, the building is not true. The material may be all right, but the building is not true.

Rem. The latter part of Zechariah 4:6 is important. "Not by might", -- Or 'forces' (footnote), it could be -- "nor by power, but by my Spirit, saith Jehovah of hosts".

G.R.C. The fact is that you cannot cut in a straight line the word of truth except by the Spirit. Only the Spirit of truth can enable any of us to do it. It is impossible otherwise. "He shall guide you into all the truth" (John 16:13). We need the Guide to get things in balance. God is said to be the One who is "true" (John 3:33). "We know that the Son of God has come, and has given us an understanding that we should know him that is true; and we are in him that is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life". (1 John 5:20). It is a wonderful thought that to me, "him that is true".

Ques. Why is the plummet connected with Zerubbabel, who, I think you said, represents rule?

G.R.C. It seems to link the kingly element with the building. It requires moral power to handle the material, to handle one another in love. Really Paul is calling for such persons at the end of 1 Corinthians. He says, "Be vigilant; stand fast in the faith; quit yourselves like men; be strong. Let all things ye do be done in love". (1 Corinthians 16:13, 14) -- men who can, in a right way, handle the material that is available and set it together according to God, according to the truth of the body and according to the truth of the house.

Rem. But to do that we have, have we not, to have the truth in our souls in an authoritative way,

as having our own links with God? We sometimes are more content to quote volumes of ministry than really see the truth as it is in Scripture and be able to cut it in a straight line.

G.R.C. Scripture can be used in an entirely wrong way, as by the devil himself in the temptation, for heretical sects, generally, base their teaching on Scripture, but on Scripture which is taken out of its setting and bent, as it were, to support preconceived ideas. That is the danger, going to Scripture with a preconceived idea and bending Scripture to that idea. Therefore we are dependent on the Spirit, and we have to exercise care not to take Scripture out of its setting. We have, for instance, the setting of 2 Timothy 2 and the setting of 2 Corinthians 6. We have to know all things in their own setting and cut in a straight line the word of truth.

Rem. The use of the numeral "seven" here would bear on that. I am thinking of the completeness of what is in mind here. In the Spirit of truth we have the whole thing, have we not, and there in absolute, divine perfection?

G.R.C. That is very helpful and encouraging. As you say, the "seven" suggests perfection and fulness, so that we can rely on the Spirit.

Ques. Is not often past ministry used to support what is erroneous or to divert the minds of the saints, whereas would the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel suggest how the standard of the truth is held currently among the saints by the Spirit in His present activities?

G.R.C. Quite so; and the truth always means balance. It is not truth otherwise. If we think of God, every feature is in perfect balance. All flows from His nature, which is love. But then, God is holy, God is righteous, and there are the other features of His character, compassion, long-suffering, patience, and all these things; but everything is in perfect balance. We speak with all reverence. He is the One

of Whom it is said, "Him that is true". And we are to have the knowledge of the glory of God, not simply a vague idea, but to see how the rays of His glory -- His nature and all the features of His character -- fit and merge in perfect balance, and truth involves the right representation of God. He is the One who is true and, therefore, we have to depend on the Spirit of truth, He alone can guide us. I feel sure of that. Otherwise, one feature that may be true in itself will override other features, and that is not truth.

Rem. As an example of that, in Luke 9:54, 55 it says, "James and John seeing it said, Lord, wilt thou that we speak that fire come down from heaven and consume them, as also Elias did? But turning he rebuked them and said, Ye know not of what spirit ye are". Was not that the wrong scripture quoted in a crisis, because, if they knew so much about Elijah, they would also have known about the spirit of grace in Elisha, when he said to the king of Israel, "wouldest thou smite those whom thou hast taken captive with thy sword and with thy bow? Set bread and water before them". The king made "a great repast", and the enemies were completely subdued. (2 Kings 6:22, 23).

G.R.C. Quite so. And so we are to "prove all things, hold fast the right" (1 Thessalonians 5:21). We have got the Scriptures and we have the Holy Spirit to guide us, and everything has to be proved. It was a young company Paul was writing to, and yet he says, "prove all things, hold fast the right". We cannot get away from that responsibility. We are to prove all things, search the Scriptures, whether these things are so (Acts 17:11), and we have the privilege of doing it in temple character, so that what comes to us in the way of ministry can be confirmed in the temple.

Rem. "If any one desire to practise his will, he shall know concerning the doctrine" (John 7:17).

Ques. Would you add another word about "The hands of Zerubbabel"? His hands "have laid the foundation of this house; and his hands shall finish it", and it is in his "hand" that the plummet is. Would it be Christ Himself?

G.R.C. I suppose he is a type of Christ; but, on the other hand, he is a type of the kingly or royal element amongst the saints at the present time.

Ques. Would it imply the possibility of completing matters practically? Are we not being tested? We may see things in an abstract way, but the great test is whether they can be completed practically amongst us.

G.R.C. And I think that a good deal depends on "the two sons of oil". You see, Zerubbabel and Joshua no doubt represent the two sons of oil at this point; but they are really elements amongst the saints, the kingly and the priestly element amongst the saints, and in this day the two are merged. They are not seen necessarily in separate persons, although one may be more evident in one and another m another, yet we are all called into these features that marked the two sons of oil; but it all depends on being sons of oil. If the plummet is to be right in our hands, it can only be as we are sons of oil and, if the priesthood is to function as God intends it to do, we must be sons of oil. And what marks the sons of oil is that they "empty the gold out of themselves".

Ques. In speaking of the sons of oil, are you stressing this great feature of spirituality which must underlie what is kingly and priestly?

G.R.C. Yes; I do not think we enjoy sonship as a relationship except in the measure in which we are sons of oil. I think Romans 8 and Galatians are written especially to help us to become sons of oil.

Ques. Did you make some allusion earlier as to the "bowl upon the top of" the "lamp-stand"? Did you say it answered to the assembly?

G.R.C. I would think so, and there it is a question of light. You see, relative to the house of God there are the festival-robes, and those robes seem to belong particularly to our day, that there is to be joy marking this day of recovery, as things draw to the climax, which perhaps has never been known before. Then there is the thought of light, because you not only need buoyancy and jubilance, if you are to serve God as He desires to be served, but you need light -- you need the lamp-stand functioning. The priests served in the light of the lampstand of old and we are to serve in the light of it, and the manifestations of the Spirit can only be known where we are set together bodywise. That is why the building is so important; we are to be set together bodywise, so that, according to 1 Corinthians 12, manifestations of the Spirit become the order of the day, and we are continually kept freshly in the light of God and His thoughts. And the sons of oil represent the saints, if we are equal to it, if we are in the gain of the Spirit, as supporting that, do you not think? And it is all leading up to priesthood functioning in a glorious way at the close of the dispensation, the priesthood being greatly enhanced.

Ques. Would you say more about the "olive-branches" and the "two golden tubes that empty the gold out of themselves"? Why was the gold emptied out of themselves; something there which was available, which could be emptied out?

G.R.C. First of all, they are "olive-branches". He changes his question; instead of saying "olive-trees", he says "olive-branches", suggesting their dependence, I suppose. And then he says, "which are beside the two golden tubes that empty -- Or, 'which by means of ... tubes, empty' (footnote) -- the gold out of themselves?" Does it not mean that they have a supply of love? Is not that why 1 Corinthians 13 comes between 12 and 14? You have the doctrine

of "the body" in chapter 12 and the possibility of manifestations of the Spirit through "the members of the body", if we are rightly set together, but chapter 13 shows what is essential, if we are to be so set together, and if the Spirit is to be free. That is, you must have the gold, the love; if you have not love, you are nothing. And then chapter 14 is the actual meeting.

Rem. And in chapter 14 there are constant references to "edification", that is, building.

Ques. When Paul speaks of love in 1 Corinthians 13, I think he mentions seventeen different features of love, the first being, "Love has long patience", and one has sometimes thought, if one was exercised about having a little more patience, if you have passed number one, there are sixteen more things to consider after that. Would you say that, while "love" is one of the commonest words in the Christian world, and even amongst us, some of us know very little about it in practice and detail?

G.R.C. The question is, I suppose, have we got enough love to empty the gold out of ourselves? Emptying seems to me a process that costs you something.

Ques. When Paul says, "Now I shall most gladly spend and be utterly spent for your souls, if even in abundantly loving you I should be less loved" (2 Corinthians 12:15), is he there the golden tube dispensing the gold?

G.R.C. That was just the scripture I had in mind. He was emptying the gold out of himself, you might say.

Ques. Does it really commence with Zerubbabel's ability to complete matters? Is it a reference to that, the kingly element?

G.R.C. I think so, the "two" would represent the kingly and the priestly, so that it is as sons of oil we can really build, because it is love that edifies (1 Corinthians 8:1),

that is, it is love that builds. So as sons of oil we can build, and as sons of oil we can function as priests.

Ques. Is that the only way in which we can arrive "at the measure of the stature of the fulness of the Christ" (Ephesians 4:13)?

G.R.C. I would think that.

Rem. I was thinking of the two sides that are presented in that verse in regard to ministry, "until we all arrive at the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God": that would be on God's side, the unity of the faith being what we arrive at in the faith of our souls, corresponding with the Son of God. But "the full-grown man, .. the measure of the stature of the fulness of the Christ" would be the answer, in the saints as fully developed in love according to God.

G.R.C. I would say so, because it goes on to say, "holding the truth in love, we may grow up to him in all things, who is the head".

Rem. That is a collective matter, that stature, is it not, arrived at by the way that you are speaking about in Zechariah?

G.R.C. And I would say sons of oil bring in the mature thought of those who, in measure, at any rate, are acting like Christ, growing "up to him in all things, who is the head, the Christ"; but we see it specially in Paul, so far as a man "of like passions" (Acts 14:15) goes, and the Lord's commandment is that we should imitate Paul. It is part of the Lord's commandment.

Ques. Is the feature of being helped in the particular aspect of the truth that is coming before us seen in that? Zechariah says, "No, my lord". Is the matter of our minds being subject a very important point?

G.R.C. How subject we should be to the Lord and to one another! Zechariah continually speaks to

the angel as "my lord", and, in a way, we can address one another in principle like that. I do not mean, in those actual words, but in our outlook on one another and our respect for one another.

Ques. May we have your impression of chapter 6 verse 11 as to the "crowns"?

G.R.C. I thought that shows the objective in view from God's standpoint; the house being built, and Christ brought in as the headstone is in view of the priesthood at the present time being greatly enhanced. So that there would be a quality of priestly service that, perhaps, in some ways, exceeds anything that has gone before. We have at the present time the earth virtually surrounded by meetings and God's thought is that the building should so come to completion, Christ having His place, that the priesthood down here should function in a glorious way; and the "crowns" are made through the exercises of those who have come out of captivity. So, when the gold and silver is taken from them, it would represent the great result of all the exercises that lie behind our getting free from the captivity and being recovered to divine thoughts.

Ques. Do you think that is the reason why chapter 5 follows, in relation to the disposal of "Wickedness", because the priesthood according to God has been set up?

G.R.C. I think chapter 5 is essential. In chapter 3 it says, "Let them set a pure turban upon his head", but in chapter 6 the thing is done, and in an enhanced way. The priesthood is viewed as fully functioning. But between you get the judgment of things, both from the standpoint of what is moral in the "flying roll" that affects our houses, as well as our local meetings, and then the system, the great Babylonish system, "This is Wickedness". We come to a judgment of things. And then, you get further light as to the authorities in the beginning of chapter 6. So there

is great enlightenment as to everything, because these sons of oil "stand before the Lord of the whole earth" and they are to understand all that the Lord of the whole earth is doing, both relative to His house and to Wickedness and relative to government. They are to understand everything, they stand before Him and, unless we are doing that, standing before Him, how can we pray aright, how can we serve aright?

Rem. I suppose there is only one way in which we can complete things, and that is by love.

G.R.C. Yes; and then, in this completion, they get Christ before them, like the headstone. In verses 12, 13 of chapter 6 you have a wonderful presentation of Christ, the King and the Priest.

Rem. If we get a sense of the glory of Christ in remnant days, as it is suggested in chapter 6, it seems as if the whole glory is reflected in the saints.

G.R.C. So that the crowns made nothing of Joshua, they are not even credited to him. I mean, God enhances the priesthood for His own glory and with a view to our getting this remarkable appreciation of Christ.

Ques. Do you think, in that way, the purifying exercises with which brethren are being presently faced are intended to promote this feature of priesthood in its glorious setting, and that makes way for the bringing in of Christ in this choice and living suggestion as "the Branch"?

G.R.C. I do; "the Branch" is a different word from the "olive-branches", it is the 'Sprout' (footnote); it is the One who has brought in what is new and fresh, "and he shall grow up from his own place". It is such a complete view of Christ, how He grew up out of His place, and then, "he shall build the temple of Jehovah: even he shall build the temple of Jehovah; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon

his throne; and the counsel of peace shall be between them both".

Ques. Would you say a word about, "who hath despised the day of small things?"? Does it not need the guidance and enlightenment of the Spirit to understand that these most wonderful and precious things are actually amongst us and that, while they are not great externally, they are great spiritually; and there may be a tendency, perhaps, to despise them, because they are not great positionally and externally?

G.R.C. The most precious things have been vouchsafed to us and the most wonderful privileges; in some ways exceeding those of any other day, the festival-robes, and the crowns on the head of Joshua, the priestly service moving in such dignity. How wonderful this is!

Rem. The word to Philadelphia is, "hold fast what thou hast, that no one take thy crown". (Revelation 3:11).

THIRD READING

Nehemiah 3:1 - 16, 26 - 32; Nehemiah 6:15 - 19; Nehemiah 7:1 - 3.

G.R.C. We are considering progress in recovery as set out in these two books, particularly having building in mind. First, they built the altar and set it on its base, and on the first day of the seventh month they began the service of God at the altar; and we noticed that the seventh month, as applied today, has reference to Paul's ministry, the completion of things. The first day of the seventh month was the feast of the blowing of trumpets, which would remind us that Paul did not shrink from announcing all the counsel of God. His ministry gives us a kind of key to the understanding of the whole of Scripture; so that, if we understand Paul, the whole of Scripture will become available to us in the understanding of the truth, and the service of God will proceed intelligently.

While the material altar of old was built and finished, in our day we are being enlarged all the time as to the altar. The early brethren had before them the Lord's supper and the service of God very prominently, and they had it before them in the light of Paul's ministry, in the light of Christ as Head of the assembly; yet we are continually gaining in intelligence as to it. Present exercises are an evidence of it. The exercises as to response to the Holy Spirit would all enter into the desire of the saints for enlargement and increased intelligence relative to the service of God.

Then yesterday evening we considered the building of the house and the way the people prospered in the building through the prophesying of Haggai and

Zechariah. They had been held up through being occupied with their own houses; but, once they went forward in response to the prophecy, the mountain of difficulty, which outwardly had held them up, became a plain, as the prophet says. He addresses the mountain and says, in Zechariah 4:7, "Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel thou dost become a plain; and he shall bring forth the headstone with shoutings: Grace, grace unto it!" Zerubbabel's hands laid the foundation and they were to finish it, and the plummet in his hand showed that the building was true, and we noticed that the two sons of oil are brought in, representing the kingly and priestly elements amongst the saints in which we should all have part. We should all be sons of oil, having faced the exercises of Romans 7 and 8, and of Galatians, and of 1 Corinthians 12, so that we are in the liberty of sonship with God.

It is such persons who can build the house, Zerubbabel being the kingly side and Joshua the priestly -- these elements combine in the saints if we are in the gain of the Spirit. So that the joy of the house is known in a special way in this day, as indicated in the festival-robes, the lamp-stand with its seven lamps functioning. And then Joshua crowned -- the priesthood beautified -- not to attach anything to the priests but to secure the great end in view, the full response to God at the close of the dispensation. So we are to be builders of the house. New material is coming in and we have to build bodywise and house-wise all the time.

And now, in this passage, we have the building of the wall, a third phase in the recovery; and there is a certain order in these things, because the building of the wall has become a very prominent matter in recent times. It is the wall of the city, and what the assembly is city-wise has come more and more into view in the progress of the recovery. We have been

helped as to the assembly of God in a city, and administration being city-wise in the light of "the holy city, Jerusalem" (Revelation 21:10), which the assembly is.

And so Nehemiah makes his request to the king to be allowed to rebuild the wall and the gates, although, when this is referred to in Daniel 9, it speaks of it as the rebuilding of the city. It is Nehemiah's move which dates the beginning of the "Seventy weeks" in Daniel 9, the Messiah's coming being in mind in a special way in this move. So it says in Daniel 9:25, "Know therefore and understand: From the going forth of the word to restore and to build Jerusalem unto Messiah, the Prince, are seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks". That is the word connected with the going up of Nehemiah, his request being granted. And so the building of the wall is put in hand, and we need to bear in mind that it is a great building operation. Zechariah speaks of the "four craftsmen" who "are come to affright them, to cast out the horns of the nations", which had scattered the people of God, (Zechariah 1:20, 21). It is four craftsmen who do that, so that the primary thing at the present time is to be builders. Whether we think of the altar or the house or the wall, it is a question of building.

Ques. Would the retention of the wall in Revelation 21, relative to the city, show that certain divine attributes come into expression in that way? It is not only protective but would serve to bring out divine attributes in a definite way.

G.R.C. I think so; while it is protective of all that is precious within, the wall is really the representation of God in the saints. Therefore it is a matter of building, because the saints themselves are the wall; if the wall is seen at all, it is seen in the saints.

Rem. In chapter 4: 18 it says, "And the builders had every one his sword girded by his side, and built". They were not using the sword to attack their enemies, they were building all the time, ready

for defence, if necessary; but the primary thought was building.

G.R.C. Quite so; building is the great thing. But, in the case of each workman, his sword was girded by his side, because, as this book indicates, the opposition to building the wall is most intense. It was greater than the opposition experienced in the book of Ezra.

Ques. Nehemiah calls attention very much to himself, as over against the line in Ezra; is it faithfulness in man as answering to God's thoughts?

G.R.C. I thought so; His name means 'Comfort of Jehovah' (footnote). We were noticing that Ezra's name means 'Help'. Ezra went up sixty-eight years after Jeshua and Zerubbabel, and Nehemiah thirteen years after Ezra. We cannot class ourselves amongst those who have been prominent in bringing out the truth, but nevertheless we can come into the matter on the line of help, like Ezra, and also on the line of comfort. We should all seek to be a help and comfort to the saints, and there is nothing more comforting than to have the wall intact. There is no sense of security unless the wall is intact.

Rem. At the end of verse 18 it says, "And he that sounded the trumpet was by me". Is it not a serious matter that the trumpet might be sounded and cause alarm, because the people had to gather at the point of danger? I was thinking that, in the matter of building, it is very serious to keep on alarming the saints.

G.R.C. You mean that the trumpet should not be sounded unless it is essential?

Rem. That is what I feel; and, therefore, the matter of what is positively going on in building is something that is a matter of comfort, and to be proceeded with by us. But the constant blowing of the trumpet is something that disconcerts, unless it is necessary.

G.R.C. The aim of the enemies was to hinder the building. Nothing would better suit their end than that people should be taken away from the work.

Ques. Is there any distinction in your mind in the character of the building relative to the house and relative to the wall?

G.R.C. Yes; as regards the house, the saints are the material and the workmen would be concerned to put the material together bodywise and house-wise. Those who minister the word have a special responsibility; but then, we are all to be builders. The work of the ministry is for building purposes, as it says, "with a view to the work of the ministry, with a view to the edifying", or building up, "of the body of Christ". It has in view every member of the body becoming active in the building process, so that the body builds itself up in love. If we are set together bodywise, we shall be set together house-wise, "built together for a habitation of God in the Spirit". But I think the wall represents the saints as having the Lord's commandments and keeping them (John 14:15, 21); and would include something built into our souls as to the nature and character of God, so that we react to things as God does. What do you say to that?

Rem. That is very helpful. The bringing in of the character of God is a very important thing.

Rem. So there are two prominent thoughts in building; that is, you build to a standard, but there is a proper way to do it.

G.R.C. And what is that?

Rem. We have here "the tower of Meah" and "the tower of Hananeel"; it seems to link with Luke's gospel; that is the standard that Luke works from, "a hundredfold" (Luke 8:8); but then the grace that is needed in order to carry it out.

G.R.C. It is interesting how the chapter begins; it begins with the high priest, "the high priest rose up

with his brethren the priests". So that the first thing presented to us is the need of priestliness in building. "And they built the sheep-gate"; the sheep-gate is first; and then, as you say, there is "the tower of Meah" and "the tower of Hananeel". I believe "Meah" means 'a hundred', does it not?

Rem. Yes. I was thinking of Luke's gospel.

G.R.C. Yes, "the ninety and nine", but there was the "one", the hundredth (Luke 15:4 - 7). Then there is "the tower of Hananeel", which means 'God is gracious'. That is the first aspect of God's character which is presented to us relative to the wall.

Ques. Would all that flow out of the feelings of Nehemiah, who set this work on, as he went round the wall and saw the distress of Jerusalem? Do we need to feel things in that way if we are to rise up in priestly power?

G.R.C. I am sure we do. He went to "the valley-gate", and "the jackal-fountain", and then "the dung-gate". Then he "turned back", he "entered by the valley-gate and returned". (Nehemiah 2:13 - 15). It was very distressing to him, because the wall was in ruins and the gates were burned with fire. That is another thing to keep in mind, that gates are in mind relative to the wall. They not only built the wall, but also the gates.

Ques. Do you think that the sheep-gate indicates that God is working in the way of recovery? Is the work of God not in mind at first?

G.R.C. So that, in these days of recovery, we specially have in mind God's sheep.

Rem. In regard to the sheep-gate, there are no locks and bars; the sheep represent the work of God and we do not want to exclude any feature of the work of God.

G.R.C. A sheep has right of access. The Lord speaks of His sheep; they go in and out and find pasture. (John 10).

Ques. The building of the wall is so much related to the gates. Is that intended to convey the thought of movement in and out, as well as this matter of what is protective? Does it answer suitably to the holy city?

G.R.C. I thought so. You cannot have gates without a wall. Without a wall, the whole thing is laid open to the enemy. Without gates, you have no administration; and administration, first and foremost, is the administration of the blessing of God. Then there is administration in dealing with what is contrary to God. But there is no power for administration unless the wall is built and, as we would desire, completed. So that what is in mind is not simply a wall, but gates, so that there is access to the city for all who have a right to enter. But then the dung-gate and the prison-gate show there is power to expel, and deal with, all that is unclean and unholy.

Ques. Is there any significance in the fact that the sheep-gate is first mentioned?

G.R.C. "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me". We are on the look-out for those who hear His voice and follow Him.

Ques. Is there any connection with the expression, "shepherds and teachers", in Ephesians?

G.R.C. The shepherd and teacher is one gift. And then the Lord is said to be "the shepherd and overseer" of our souls (1 Peter 2:25). He is "the great shepherd of the sheep" (Hebrews 13:20). He is thinking of the sheep all the time, and our concern is the "one flock" and the "one shepherd" (John 10:16). We would love to have all the sheep of Christ delivered from all associations of men and wholly available to enter the sheep-gate. The gate is there for them.

Rem. You would think that the feature of a sheep of Christ now would be as set out in 2 Timothy 2, he is withdrawing from iniquity.

G.R.C. Yes, because he follows the Lord. "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me". The Lord has never been linked with anything of this world. "They are not of the world", He says, "as I am not of the world". (John 17:16). So that the sheep come to light.

Ques. Is it not comforting to think that, while all these divisions exist, over which we mourn, because other voices have been heard and paid heed to, when only one voice is heard at the rapture, then all those who belong to the Lord will be there with Him together for ever?

G.R.C. Every sheep will hear that last "assembling shout" (1 Thessalonians 4:16).

Ques. Would you say a word about "They hallowed it"? Is it a priestly operation? Only a priest can discern whether a person is fit for fellowship.

G.R.C. That is very good. It says of the sheepgate, "They hallowed it, and set up its doors".

Rem. In the first two gates it is said that they "built" them, while all the others are "repaired"; would that suggest that these two leading features had been entirely lost? Sectarianism has come in, and the gates, along with the wall, are the important matter. But then the recognition of the sheep is also an important matter. Wherever they come from, they are Christ's sheep, are they not? And we look for the features of the sheep.

G.R.C. Men have risen up, who have led away disciples after them. The sects may have had their own gates, but they are not the gates of God's city.

Ques. Was Paul fearful of the loss of the sheepgate when he said to the Ephesian elders, "shepherd the assembly of God, which he has purchased with the blood of his own", speaking, too, about their having been "set ... as overseers" in "the flock" (Acts 20:28)?

G.R.C. Yes. He speaks there of those who would lead away disciples after them; they would lead them away, so that they do not enter the sheep-gate.

Ques. Does the sheep-gate speak specially of the Lord? He says in John 10:7, 9, "I am the door" hence the need of the word, "They hallowed it"; and could that be extended to "the fountain-gate" as figurative of the Holy Spirit, of which it is said, "he ... covered it"?

G.R.C. That is a very interesting suggestion. Here it is "Eliashib the high priest" and "his brethren the priests" who built it, and they hallowed it. The thought of the Spirit would come into the hallowing, I suppose. And then, as you say, the fountain-gate specially brings the Holy Spirit before us.

Rem. We must have an apprehension of the sheepgate ere we can proceed with the building of the wall.

G.R.C. I would say so, especially in the light of what our brothers say, that it may have special reference to Christ Himself. And then there is the tower of Meah, and the tower of Hananeel; these things stand at the outset. And then there is the fish-gate. We might have thought of the fish-gate first. The first thing the Lord said to Peter was, "Come after me, and I will make you fishers of men". (Matthew 4:19). But, in His later commission, He says to Peter, "Feed my lambs ... Shepherd my sheep ... . Feed my sheep". (John 21:15 - 17).

Rem. In connection with the mention of the sheep-gate in John 5, the Lord's service to the impotent man was to liberate him, but he did not move into the liberty that the Lord had in mind; but the Lord uses the occasion to bring out the truth that the Father was working hitherto and He was working. Is the Divine work today with a view to the complete liberation of souls, that they might move in and out, and into the realm where the will of God is done in the city?

G.R.C. And so the Father was working and the Lord was working, as you say; and later He speaks of the Father and Himself relative to the sheep; none can seize them out of His hand, and none can seize them out of the Father's hand (John 10:28, 29).

Rem. That word in Timothy, "The Lord knows those that are his" (2 Timothy 2:19), would suggest the sheep, "and, Let every one who names the name of the Lord withdraw from iniquity" is like the use of the gate, is it?

G.R.C. Yes, the true feature of the sheep comes to light, because he hears the Lord's voice and follows Him.

Rem. So that, while the man that has been referred to does not come into the full gain, what immediately precedes chapter 10 is the Lord's work with the man in chapter 9. It seems that the Lord had a basis for bringing forward chapter 10 in that sense.

G.R.C. I think so, the man in chapter 9 was a sample sheep, because the works of God had been manifest in him; and, because true in his testimony, he found himself outside. He had no associations of life left, even his relatives disowning him; so he was ready for the flock, "one flock, one shepherd".

Ques. Is it not so that the truth of the assembly now is only worked out in connection with those who are departing from evil in its various forms in the world?

G.R.C. Quite so. That is the basis of our being together today, is it not?

Rem. So that the idea of the wall involves a line of demarcation, does it not, where things are set out in their distinctiveness according to God as apart from the world?

G.R.C. Quite so. The initial separation, according to 2 Timothy 2, is from positive religious error, evil teaching. That is the full thought of "iniquity"

there, as I understand it, "Let every one who names the name of the Lord withdraw from iniquity". Iniquity has come into Christendom in the way of erroneous teaching, and we are surrounded with it. But then, I think the building of the wall is to help us as to separation in every way. We have all separated, one would judge, from religious evil; but then, the separation is to be complete. So that we have to apply the principle of withdrawal in respect of everything contrary to the Lord's commandment.

Ques. Is that why "the king's garden" and "the king's house" come to light in this chapter? In chapter 2 we have "the king's forest" and "the king's pool", but we need this priestly setting for the king's garden and the king's house to appear?

G.R.C. We do. There is a kind of progression here, one would judge -- the sheep-gate and then the fish-gate. The fish-gate has locks and bars, because, the Lord says, the seine cast into the sea gathered both bad and good (Matthew 13:47, 48); so that there has to be discrimination. Peter was a fisherman, but he was also a shepherd; his first commission was a fisherman but then later a shepherd.

Rem. In John 21 it is said that it was Simon Peter who "drew the net to the land full of great fishes".

G.R.C. Yes, and my impression is that the "great fishes" of John 21 are those who have withdrawn from iniquity and faced the whole matter of separation. The exercises of passing that way bring about persons who are morally great.

Rem. I was thinking of the fact that there were no locks and bars in connection with the sheep-gate. Perhaps our outlook might be pretty wide on the line of the sheep-gate, but then, when we come to the fish-gate, there is discrimination.

G.R.C. In one way our outlook would be wide in the sheep-gate, because we would think of all who belong to Christ; but then, of course, the gate is only

available for those who are marked by the sheep feature of following the Lord. But I quite agree with what you say as to the fish-gate, the discrimination.

Ques. Do we get the sheep-gate at the beginning of Acts 2, the wonderful liberty at Pentecost, and, subsequent to that, the fish-gate is in operation with the locks and bars, as in chapters 5 and 8?

G.R.C. In Acts 5 the wall came specifically into evidence, so that "of the rest durst no man join them". Peter expressed God's own reaction to what was present. It was true representation of God, divine anger, as we may say, because of the leaven that had crept in. Hypocrisy was there, and deceit, and so there is the disciplinary measure of Peter. But, although "of the rest durst no man join them", it says "believers were more than ever added to the Lord". Thus the true representation of God resulted in more believers than ever being added to the Lord.

Ques. Did not Mr. Raven say that, if we were supremely concerned about the truth and the principles, God would give us the persons who were linked with those principles?

Rem. And, referring now to the matter of principles, do they enter into the third gate referred to and said to be "repaired", "the gate of the old wall repaired"? I was wondering if the repair of the old wall might suggest the application of those principles which have obtained from the beginning.

G.R.C. I thought that. We go back to the beginning, "that which was from the beginning" (1 John 1:1), because we really go back to Christ. We go back to Pentecost, of course; but then, we go back to Christ. We are to walk as He walked.

Rem. What you said as to what is priestly, I feel ought to be particularly noted. I remember a remark of Mr. Robert Dunn when he said there is a danger with us of making what is administrative too prominent and overlooking the priestly.

Ques. Would "the men of Jericho" suggest persons who have come to a right and proper judgment as to man's city and man's kind of building and are now building what is in keeping with the mind of God relative to His city?

G.R.C. That is very good; His city, in contrast to Jericho. So here we have the gate of the old wall, going back to first principles, and then there is "The valley-gate ... And the dung-gate ... And the fountain-gate", and there is a moral order in those things.

Ques. Is there a climax in the fountain-gate? The repair of the gates does not seem to proceed beyond the fountain-gate. Does it give us a certain kind of climax where are the attractive city conditions?

G.R.C. "And the fountain-gate repaired Shallun the son of Colhozeh"; is that what you have in mind?

Rem. I was noticing that it is not a question of setting up twelve gates, which might be presumption, but there seems to be a spiritual approach to administration by way of the gates which come into evidence up to that point, as though it is practicable to work on spiritual lines. And then the chapter leaves us with a good deal of building to go on, relative to what has preceded. I wondered whether the building of the wall between the gates would call for wisdom and skill, so that the wall might have the character of the gates that it adjoins. For they would not all be on one level, would they, the contour of the land would vary?

G.R.C. Quite so. There are ten gates actually mentioned in the chapter, are there not? But, as you say, the fountain-gate is a very important point.

Ques. In what sense is the fountain connected with the gate?

G.R.C. I suppose it is a gate which suggests outgoings. The gates were not only for what came in but for outgoings. The fountain would spring up.

But then, before we speak of the fountain-gate, we ought to think of the valley-gate and the dung-gate, because we cannot arrive at the fountain-gate apart from those. There is the gate of the old wall, the principles, and then we might notice that "the goldsmiths" come in and "the perfumers". And "the goldsmiths and the dealers" are mentioned at the end of the chapter, showing that we have to build relative to our businesses. We build the wall relative to our businesses as well as over against our houses. Quite a number built over against their house, verse 10, for instance, "over against his house"; and one, later in the chapter, builds "over against his chamber", or 'lodging' (footnote) a man who, presumably, did not possess a house, but still he builds over against his chamber. So the building of the wall enters into every feature of our lives: our businesses, our houses, and our chamber.

Rem. And it was a unified effort. They worked in relation to each other.

G.R.C. Quite so. We are all to be in it, all to be builders.

Ques. With reference to our reacting to things as God reacts to them, would that make us very sensitive as to matters in business life and business associations and the like?

G.R.C. It would not only cover external associations, but also involve the whole way we conduct our business. How is the goldsmith doing it, how is the perfumer doing it? Is he conducting his business like a man of the world or is he really reacting to everything in business as God would react to it?

Rem. As we react in our daily life as God would react, we can say for the comfort of the younger brethren that God maintains us and sees us through, because He delights to maintain those who react as He reacts.

G.R.C. Quite so.

And does not God therefore

place His people in most walks of life as a testimony? As reacting to everything as God reacts, God is expressed in them. And yet that is the principle of the wall, because that very thing protects the city, the fact that we are all reacting as God would react -- in our business, in our houses, in our chambers. You can see how it keeps the city protected and pure. In Revelation 21 it is called "the holy city".

Rem. In Paul's movements, in the coming of the testimony into the western world, that feature was there. It speaks of Lydia and it says of her, "a seller of purple" (Acts 16:14); then with Aquila and Priscilla it speaks of their "trade" (Acts 18:3). In each case Paul is linked with them. Does that suggest the building in relation to their business, in view of the enlargement of the assembly?

G.R.C. That is very interesting in connection with the testimony in Europe. "Lydia, a seller of purple"; you might say, 'How can anyone be in commerce and yet be right with God?' But Lydia was. It does not say she gave up her business; she was a seller of purple, and yet she could say, "If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord", -- she is not simply saying, 'If ye have judged my house to be faithful to the Lord', but, "If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord", which would include her business matters -- "come into my house and abide there". And then you have the jailor; you say, 'How could a jailor be a Christian?' But then, the Lord converted the jailor and he became a tender, affectionate man, and so joyful that he carried his whole house with him; he "rejoiced 'householdly'" (footnote) ".. in God". (Acts 16:34).

Rem. So the wall is to be seen. I was thinking of what you are referring to as testimony; is not that what brought out the opposition later on, in chapter 4? Those who were opposed saw what was going on and that the wall was to enclose what was pleasing

to God. It was not only for protection but for testimony.

Ques. Is there a link with "the foundations of the wall of the city" being "adorned with every precious stone" (Revelation 21:19)? Does that suggest the varied glories of the character of God being seen?

G.R.C. Very good.

Ques. You said just now that we should all be in it; does that make verse 5 a rather sad reference, that "their nobles put not their necks to the work of their Lord"? Is that something half-hearted? Do you not think that the Spirit's making that reference should be a special word to us at the moment?

G.R.C. I do; they were nobles, those whom you would have expected to do it, but they did not do it.

Ques. Referring to the valley-gate, might there be a sense in which it would suggest to us the bearing of the death of Christ?

G.R.C. I think it does refer to the death of Christ. And then the dung-gate would be self-judgment. We recognise that all that comes from man is corrupt and abominable to God.

Ques. Does Paul not refer to the dung-gate in Philippians 3?

G.R.C. That is good; what would be highly esteemed by men Paul counted to be "dung" (Authorised Version, "filth" New Translation). That is the judgment we come to, if we apprehend the death of Christ according to the type of the "red heifer" (Numbers 19:2). The "cedar-wood, and hyssop, and scarlet" (Numbers 19:6) we would esteem as dung.

Ques. And in keeping with the valley-gate would it be, "For thy sake we are put to death all the day long; we have been reckoned as sheep for slaughter" (Romans 8:36)?

G.R.C. It would include that, undoubtedly -- identified with Christ in His death. But these are very practical matters, are they not? The valley-gate:

we ought to be near to the cross all the time in our spirits. And then the dung-gate: that should be operating all the time. And then it makes way for the fountain-gate: the Spirit is free.

Rem. So of the valley-gate it says that "the inhabitants of Zanoah; they built it", but, as to the dung-gate, a man built it, "he built it".

G.R.C. That is very interesting. You are thinking that it has to be a personal matter, the dung-gate?

Rem. I was thinking that, and the other would come to light in our localities, "the inhabitants of Zanoah". As the death of Christ is appropriated, we are set together on that basis.

G.R.C. That is very helpful. The valley-gate was a collective matter, but the dung-gate was built by one man, and he was a "chief".

Ques. Have you any thought why, in verse 12, mention is made of the feminine element?

G.R.C. It shows that the sisters have their part in this, "he and his daughters". The wall is to be seen in the sisters as well as in the brothers; in fact, it should be a very prominent feature in the sisters, I would judge.

Ques. Are all these features of administration in the gates to be found in each locality?

G.R.C. Indeed they are.

Ques. And is it suggestive, too, that the one person, the individual, who repaired the dung-gate, was described as "the chief of the district"? What I had in mind is particularly that the great man had to go in that way.

G.R.C. That is what interested me, that here is a great man, the chief of a district, but he is prepared to judge himself.

Ques. Does it suggest, too, that it is possible to give a lead in that direction?

G.R.C. It does; Paul gave a lead in it.

Rem. So that in the passage where Paul speaks of

counting all things as dung, he says, "As many therefore as are perfect, let us be thus minded; .. But whereto we have attained, let us walk in the same steps. Be imitators all together of me, brethren, and fix your eyes on those walking thus as you have us for a model;" and then he goes on to speak of those who "are the enemies of the cross of Christ".

G.R.C. And so he marks out the way for us to get the gain of the fountain-gate, the Spirit free and unhampered amongst the saints, so that our portion is secured and God's portion is secured. And then, "the wall of the pool of Shelah", 'Siloam' (footnote) would link with that, "the waters of Shiloah which flow softly" (Isaiah 8:6).

Ques. Does that introduce in the fountain-gate the element of holiness? It is the one gate that is referred to as "covered", is it not? Then as to the introduction of the pool of Siloam; in John 9 it brought the man to the light of the Son of God, did it not?

G.R.C. It did. It is noticeable that it was a covered gate. How we should cherish the presence of the Spirit and seek that nothing might grieve or quench Him! And, if we are true to the valley-gate and the dung-gate, there will be nothing; and thus we shall be led into the gain of the pool of Siloam, the present flow of the Spirit's ministry.

Rem. And all that would lead to "the stairs that go down from the city of David". The thoughts of God as to David and the kind of administration He loves would come into practical expression.

G.R.C. Say some more about it, please. There is "the king's garden", then "the stairs".

Rem. There seems to be a climax reached in this and the most delightful city conditions experienced; so that administration would not be a burden; but the stairs that go down would speak of the descending grace of Christ and all that was found in David as pleasurable to God.

G.R.C. Very good.

Ques. Would the contrast to that be seen in chapter 12, where "the stairs" go up, the service of God being, perhaps, especially in mind?

G.R.C. I think so; so that we need to understand the going down, do you think, preparatory to the going up?

Rem. Yes.

Ques. Is there something in the word of the psalmist, "Jehovah loveth the gates of Zion more than all the habitations of Jacob" (Psalm 87:2)? These are the things that God loves, are they?

G.R.C. They are, and we would love them, would we not?

Ques. The word in Isaiah 60, "thou shalt call thy walls Salvation, and thy gates Praise": should we not have in mind that administration is not with us as a burden, but with a view to the praise of God?

G.R.C. And thus it is carried out in the spirit of praise and worship. So that, in chapter 7, when the gates were built and then the doors set up on the gates, it says, "the doorkeepers and the singers and the Levites were appointed". It is remarkable that doorkeepers and singers are linked together, not only here but elsewhere. David appointed four thousand doorkeepers and four thousand singers (1 Chronicles 23:5), and from this one would judge that every doorkeeper is a singer, if we apply it to ourselves.

Ques. If I may go back to the dung-gate for a moment, this being a city feature, would it not go further than what is individual? Do you think it would bear on how matters are kept according to the holiness proper to God within? "Do not ye judge them that are within?" (1 Corinthians 5:12).

G.R.C. I would think the dung-gate is mainly individual. It is a man who builds it and I think it is what we have to look to ourselves, each one. You get other aspects: for instance, earlier there is

one, "the tower of the furnaces", and then later in the chapter, verse 25, "the high tower that lies out from the king's house, which was by the court of the prison". But I would think the dung-gate is that which we each have to take up for ourselves.

Ques. But would it not have a city application as to the maintenance of holy conditions locally, an application to the localities?

G.R.C. I think so. Each one is to take up the exercise of the dung-gate; otherwise, of course, other things will come into operation. There is the tower of the furnaces to deal with certain things and, in verse 25, the prison.

Ques. Do you not think it could have a collective application as well?

G.R.C. Only in the sense that individuals make up the collective thing. If a person does not judge himself, he will be judged.

Ques. That is what I thought. Would we not have to look into things at the care meeting, for instance, in regard to matters that may have to be taken out of the city?

G.R.C. I think that is so, and that is where, as I say, other things mentioned here would come into operation.

Ques. Is it significant that throughout the whole section the matter of sonship seems to be prominent? Most of these persons are referred to as sons.

G.R.C. I believe it is true that only in the liberty of sonship can one be a true churchman. The builders here are typically churchmen. It comes back to the sons of oil. We cannot be truly representative of God, if we are not in the liberty of sonship.

Ques. Would the reference to the unhappy work spoken of in verses 17 - 19 of chapter 6 be discountenanced by one moving in the joy of sonship?

G.R.C. That brings us to what our brother was earlier referring to, the anger and attack of the

enemies. But before passing on, there is in verse 16, "the sepulchres of David, and .. the pool that was made, and .. the house of the mighty men". We have to distinguish between the pool of Siloam and the pool that was made. The pool that was made, I would suggest, is past ministry; and there is a wonderful pool, linked with the house of the mighty men. But the pool of Siloam is the present current of what the Spirit is saying to the assemblies, and it is to be noted that the fountain-gate and the pool of Siloam come before the pool that was made. I believe it means that, unless we are in the gain of the fountain and are moving in the current of what the Spirit is saying at the present time, we cannot properly understand or value past ministry. As a brother said yesterday, we may even use it to negate what is present. The pool that was made can only be properly valued by those in the gain of what is present. We must be in the present current; that is the first and foremost thing. And that is a thing for young people to take account of; all young people should be in the present current of what the Spirit is saying -- livingly in it -- for the fountain is operating in them and in the local companies -- and then we can value this wonderful pool that has been made.

Rem. So it says in Matthew 13:52, in regard of the "householder", he "brings out of his treasure things new and old", not 'old and new'.

G.R.C. I believe that is an important principle.

Ques. Is that why it is preceded by "the sepulchres of David"? There was a coming to an end, so to speak, as set out in the sepulchres, in view of this pool that was made and the house of the mighty men.

G.R.C. The pool that was made is of great value. We cannot overestimate it. And yet you will find that those who are not going in on the present current of what the Spirit is saying, misuse it and do not understand it. If you are in the present current of the

Spirit, you find that J.N.D.'s writings are right up to date; but, if you are not, you may even use them to try to negate what is moving now.

Rem. So it is a fountain-gate, something springing up constantly, is it not?

G.R.C. Yes, the fountain-gate, as springing up, ensures refreshment for the saints and for God, "springing up into eternal life". (John 4:14). And then there is "the ... worshippers ...". How much we owe to the Spirit!

Now, as to the enemies, we ought to take account of the character of them. In the beginning of chapter 6 you have got "Sanballat", who was a Moabite, "Tobijah", an Ammonite, "and Geshem the Arabian", Their hatred and animosity lay in the fact that, if the wall was completed, they would have "no portion, nor right, nor memorial in Jerusalem". (See chapter 2). So you can understand their animosity. Tobijah had had a big place in Jerusalem, even in the house of God. (See chapter 13). The Moabite, Ammonite, and Arabian are deadly enemies. The Moabite, one would suggest, is social and family pride and status, the Ammonite nationalism -- "Ammon" means 'fellow-countryman' -- and Geshem the Arabian -- I suppose, an Ishmaelite -- he is the legal element, the one who would bring Judaism into Christianity.

Ques. Does 2 Chronicles 20 help in that matter? Moab and Ammon are the enemies there, and it says, after Jehoshaphat has been spoken to, "And when they began the song of triumph and praise, Jehovah set liers-in-wait against the children of Ammon, Moab, and mount Seir". Would that suggest God's somewhat hidden operations to help the saints as they take up the matter of praise?

G.R.C. Yes, I think so. We have to watch these elements, because they should not come within the precincts of Jerusalem.

Rem. These men, these enemies, have a link with

those that are prominent in the previous chapter on marriage lines.

Rem. They would like to make breaches and it says earlier that the enemies rose up very definitely when they saw the breaches were being repaired (Nehemiah 4:7, 8). Have we not all to be watchful that we do not contribute to any breach at all?

G.R.C. I am sure; and chapter 6 shows the tactics of the enemy. "The arms of our warfare are not fleshly" (2 Corinthians 10:4); we are not to use these tactics ourselves, but they are put down to show us what the enemy's tactics are. In verse 5 Sanballat sends "an open letter" to make them afraid. There is a man who professes to be a prophet, in verse 10, and a woman (Noadiah) in verse 14, "and the rest of the prophets who would have put me in fear". But, in spite of that, the work was finished. And then you have a traitorous element in verse 17; "the nobles of Judah sent many letters to Tobijah, and those of Tobijah came to them". Finally, in the end of the chapter, "Tobijah sent letters to put me in fear".

Rem. Paul's letters are with a view to setting the saints at liberty, are they not; not to put them in fear?

G.R.C. Exactly. The New Testament shows the importance of letter-writing in a spiritual way.

Ques. Would the reference in verse 3 of the next chapter, "And I said to them that the gates of Jerusalem should not be opened until the sun was hot", govern everything, whether it be letters that are circulated, or whether it be rumours that we talk to one another about, or these kind of things? If the sun is hot, do you not think that that would bring us into the full shining of God as it is in Christ?

G.R.C. You mean, therefore, that everything should be in the full light of day.

Rem. And not only in the full light, but in the heat of what is corning from God.

G.R.C. Very good, they "should not be opened

until the sun was hot". And then, the final word that we read, they "appointed watches ... , every one in his watch, and every one over against his l house". So that we are all to be watchmen.

FOURTH READING

Nehemiah 8:1 - 3, 13 - 17; Nehemiah 9:1, 2, 5 - 7, 38; Nehemiah 10:28 - 34, 39 ("... . And we will not forsake the house of our God").

G.R.C. I think what has been mentioned in prayer, that we are those who have escaped from captivity, should be kept in our minds. It is referred to in chapter 8, verse 17, "And all the congregation of them that had come back from the captivity made booths, and dwelt in the booths". We have been speaking of building; but, in our day, the material available for building consists of those who have come back from captivity, and we can regard one another in this way. 2 Timothy 2 refers primarily to the coming back from Babylon, the religious iniquity of Christendom. And then, having come back, we are to "pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace, with those that call upon the Lord out of a pure heart". And the building of the wall has in mind that we should be established in the pursuit of righteousness. As I say, the material we have to work with consists of those who have come back from captivity, whether we think of building the altar, or the house, or the wall. It shows that coming back from captivity is not the whole thing. There is the question of building, and we are especially thinking now of building and completing the wall and the gates. Twice over Paul writes to the Corinthians of the authority the Lord had given him for building up and not for overthrowing (2 Corinthians 10:8 and 2 Corinthians 13:10). I think the hymn we have sung (Hymn 221) would energise us as to that, the concern being that there might, at the present time, be conditions morally in accord with the holy city,

Jerusalem, soon to come down out of the heaven from God (Revelation 21:10).

But then, the scripture we have now read shows the great expansion that occurred when the wall was completed. Thus, if current exercises are faced before God, we can rely on expansion, as suggested here, relative to the scope of God's mind and will. We have "the seventh month" again and similar language to that in Ezra; "And when the seventh month came, and the children of Israel were in their cities, all the people gathered together as one man". They had done that when the altar was set up (Ezra 3:1 - 3).

That was at the beginning. Now, having completed the wall they gathered together again as one man to the open place that was before the water-gate; and one thing to notice about the company who gathered is that they took the initiative, "they spoke to Ezra the scribe to bring the book of the law of Moses", and they are men and women, and it says at the end of verse 3, "And the ears of all the people were attentive to the book of the law". So you really have a remarkable state of things here, resulting from what has gone before.

Ques. Is it not most encouraging to be able to recognise the work of God in the body of the saints that readily responds to help and leadership in regard to the truth?

G.R.C. The way the brethren have responded to the call to come out and be separated is very encouraging. In that word the idea of the wall is there, "come out ... , and be separated" (2 Corinthians 6:17), not simply "come out ... , and be ... separate" (A.V.), but "be separated". We are in a fixed position, we are separated from evil and separated to God.

Ques. What should be our attitude toward our brethren still detained in Babylon?

G.R.C. If we are recovered to the truth, we shall have love for all the saints; our affections will go out

to those still in Babylon. We should be on the lookout for any who are prepared for help.

Rem. I think it has been said that we should become more energetic in regard of help, "Let every one who names the name of the Lord withdraw from iniquity". (2 Timothy 2:19).

G.R.C. The sword that we were speaking of this morning was defensive; they built with one hand and held the sword in the other, and we always have to be on the defensive. But my impression is that God would help us as to our state and as to coming into the gain of the truth, so that we might be better able to take the initiative in conflict, and become like the spouse with first love for Christ, "terrible as troops with banners" (Song of Songs 6:4), going forth for the deliverance of men from the powers of darkness.

Ques. Would verse 10 of the chapter help, too, on a positive line, "Go your way, eat the fat, and drink the sweet, and send portions to them for whom nothing is prepared"?

G.R.C. It is comforting to know that the ministry goes so far afield. "The Lord knows those that are his" (2 Timothy 2:19) and it is a comfort to think that food is reaching them; and we yearn and earnestly pray that, as having food, they might move. Sometimes they do. But we pray for more.

Ques. Would you say a word on the principles that govern this dispensation?

G.R.C. We have to apply Old Testament types in accord with the spirit of the Christian dispensation; otherwise, we may achieve our object ostensibly, and yet lose the spirit of Christianity, and then our loss will be great indeed.

Rem. So the Lord's commandment, that Paul speaks of in 1 Corinthians, would always be in accord fully with our day, would it not?

G.R.C. That is right. "Be my imitators, even as I also am of Christ" (1 Corinthians 11:1) is part of the Lord's

commandment in that epistle.

Rem. But Christianity secures the will of God being done, does it not?

G.R.C. Yes, it does; and the law never did. "The law perfected nothing" (Hebrews 7:19), whereas Christianity is characteristically a system of perfection.

Ques. I think we are up against difficulties at the present time about grace in that connection and the will of God being done; do you not think that we need to urge one another to act, nevertheless, while in the spirit of grace?

G.R.C. I do; like Paul, who, at each point where he had to speak faithfully, expressed his affection for the saints. When it came to the altar, and they were not in accord with the altar as we know, he said, "Wherefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry". (1 Corinthians 10:14). He, as it were, put his arms round them. And so in other instances; he said what was faithful and true, but, at the same time, expressed his fervent affection.

Rem. As he did with Eutychus. It says, the boy "fell ... down ... But Paul descending fell upon him, and enfolding him in his arms, said, Be not troubled, for his life is in him", (Acts 20:9, 10). The brethren said he was dead, but Paul embraced him and he was alive.

G.R.C. And so he says to the Corinthians, "having in readiness to avenge all disobedience" (2 Corinthians 10:6); because, if people are disobedient to grace, there is nothing more. The call of grace is the final test to man. The greatest form of disobedience is to disobey the call of grace; that is far more serious than disobeying the call of law. Such disobedience, in its full-blown form, is called insulting the Spirit of grace (Hebrews 10:29). And so Paul says, "having in readiness to avenge all disobedience when your obedience shall have been fulfilled". That is to say, he would move on with a view to their obedience being

fulfilled, in order that only those marked by apostate features (even though not actual apostates) would have to be dealt with.

Ques. And would not that lie behind what you are speaking of as to the aggressive side? If we are not pure ourselves, how can we go out in the testimony to others?

G.R.C. That is just the point; and I am sure we would all desire to have power to be more aggressive in testimony.

Ques. Does Peter do that at the beginning of the Acts? He, first of all, brings in the defensive side in defending the disciples, and then he takes the initiative, does he not?

G.R.C. So he answers the mockers first, then he proclaims the gospel, and how effective "the sword of the Spirit" (Ephesians 6:17) was in the hands of Peter, because three thousand were converted and "added in that day" (Acts 2:41)!

Ques. Does Paul take the initiative in the presence of king Agrippa (Acts 25)?

G.R.C. Yes; he said he was making his defence, but really he took the initiative. He carried the testimony into the enemy's camp.

Rem. The verse you quote, "having in readiness to avenge all disobedience when your obedience shall have been fulfilled", is a very good one for us.

G.R.C. I think we need to keep it in mind. Paul puts himself alongside the brethren. He says, "let us purify ourselves" (2 Corinthians 7:1); as though he would put his arms around them and carry them along with him. And those who are faced with present exercises should have a sense that the brethren are surrounding them with affection, support, and encouragement, and then, we trust, their obedience will be fulfilled, do you not think?

Rem. I do, indeed; we are all in it, and they need to know that, and we need to realise it, too.

Rem. J.N.D. said that divine principles in the hands of an unspiritual man were like a sword in the hand of a drunkard.

G.R.C. It would mean, I suppose, applying divine principles without love. To walk as Christ walked is something law could never have demanded. And yet that is the only standard we can have; there is no other standard. Grace alone can bring us to it and keep us in it.

Ques. So it says, "For the law was given by Moses: grace and truth subsists through Jesus Christ" (John 1:17); would it be the thought that that is continued in the assembly, grace and truth first subsisting in Him and then subsisting in the assembly, to be true representatives of God?

G.R.C. And you have noticed, I suppose, the verb there is in the singular, according to the footnote. Grace and truth are regarded as inseparable. The full truth as to God never was disclosed until grace was manifested. And, on the other hand, the grace of God involves the truth. They are inseparable.

Ques. Would it be right to say that the first thing that the commandment of the Lord requires is obedience?

G.R.C. It is the first thing the gospel requires, too, the obedience of faith. Also, according to the last chapter of Romans, "the mystery, ..." is, "according to commandment of the eternal God, made known for obedience of faith". So that both the gospel and the mystery are presented for the obedience of faith; they are not optional. The truth of the gospel and the truth of the church are both to be obeyed. But it is the obedience of faith; the light of God comes into the soul and you move in the faith of your own soul with God, and it is persons like that who are suitable material for the assembly.

Ques. Will you say something about what is in Jude, "And of some have compassion, making a

difference, but others save with fear, snatching them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh", verses 22, 23?

G.R.C. We would like to hear your remarks on it.

Rem. I was thinking of what our brother raised: how ate we to behave with those not with us? Would you make a difference?

G.R.C. I thought that it is a priestly duty to differentiate. Does not every case stand on its own merits? What do you say?

Rem. I think so; but we have to meet various people, who are connected with these divisions. They are not all the same. Some are deeply imbued with the idea, some are only nominally there. Would you make a difference in speaking to them?

G.R.C. I certainly would. I think that is very important. As regards those in erroneous systems, there are those who are leaders in them and steeped in the erroneous principles. You would treat them differently from those who have come into it, knowing nothing else.

Rem. The leaders, those that are in the thing, you would not have to do with at all; because they strike at the very thought of Christ and the assembly.

G.R.C. The leaders in these errors, whatever they are, would be more like the men Paul refers to in the epistles to Timothy, would they not, such as Hymenaeus and Alexander (1 Timothy 1:20) and Hymenaeus and Philetus (2 Timothy 2:17)? Their wickedness varied in degree, of course. Phygellus and Hermogenes had turned away from Paul (2 Timothy 1:15); and that is the state of Christendom generally. But then, the next pair, in 2 Timothy 2, were teaching wicked doctrine, and "their word" would "spread as a gangrene" -- a most dangerous thing. And then Jannes and Jambres are likened to those who "withstand the truth" (2 Timothy 3:8); and "Alexander the smith did many evil things against" Paul (2 Timothy 4:14). But I

would have thought that leaders who are steeped in any erroneous principle would come under the category of men whom we are to shun. Is that right?

Rem. Yes, I think so.

Rem. There are those, are there, who are astray as to the truth of Christ's Person and those who may need help in that?

G.R.C. Quite so. I think the epistles to Timothy help us as to the kind of persons that we are to turn right away from and have nothing to say to. But, if we come back to our chapter now, it is full of encouragement, and we can see features of this in our day, because the saints are set for the completion of the wall, and, coupled with it, there is this great desire to hear the word of God, so that they take the initiative. It is a remarkable thing: "They spoke to Ezra the scribe to bring the book of the law of Moses", and then it says, at the end of verse 3, "the ears of all the people were attentive to the book of the law". And this is "men and women"; sisters are to be intelligent, as well as brothers.

Ques. Would "the open place ... before the water-gate" allude to the sphere of the Spirit's present activity and service; and the Scriptures are brought in, and the Spirit's service is brought to bear upon them?

G.R.C. Yes; and do not meetings of this character remind us of this kind of thing, people gathering together "as one man to the open place that was before the water-gate"?

Ques. What would you say the Spirit's voice to the saints is just now?

G.R.C. I would like to hear what you have to say.

Rem. My impression is that the Spirit of God is emphasising the glory of Christ, His pre-eminence and His claim to have His assembly as He wants it; and the individual and collective responsibility of the saints to seek to answer to that.

G.R.C. I am sure that is the great objective before

the Spirit. He would bring us, in that sense, into accord with Himself. "The Spirit and the bride say, Come". (Revelation 22:17). We should be in company with the Spirit as to His present operations. Paul said he had "espoused" the Corinthians "unto one man, to present ... a chaste virgin to Christ" (2 Corinthians 11:2), and we need to be in company with the Spirit, so that we might be thus "chaste" and wholly for Christ; and then we shall be for God, because what is for God in the way of fruit arises from the marital link with Christ. Even on the individual line, we are "to be to another ... in order that we might bear fruit to God" (Romans 7:4), and on the assembly line it is similar.

Ques. Do you think that line of things would win the affections of the saints for the truth?

G.R.C. Yes, it is really a question of recovery to first love, is it not?

Ques. What are we to gather from the fact that the first meeting after the descent of the Spirit was a preaching of the word of God and the last commission of the Lord to the disciples, ere He went to glory, was an evangelical one?

G.R.C. It would energise us to have things right within, so that we can take the initiative and move forward in public testimony.

Ques. Would the open place before the water-gate be a place to which all can come? Does it suggest the great possibilities in the Spirit?

G.R.C. It is a wonderful setting. To see an analogy to it in our day is most encouraging, the way the brethren delight to get together for extended occasions with nothing before them but to listen to the word of God.

Ques. There is much made in this chapter of understanding; do you think that that is what these meetings are for, so that the brethren should be able to move intelligently, the sisters becoming intelligent

as well as the brothers, so that we all know what we are doing. The apostle, remarkably enough, gave even the Corinthians the credit for being intelligent persons and able to judge what he said.

G.R.C. And so it says here, "men and women, and all that could hear with understanding", which, no doubt, would include young people who could hear with understanding. In chapter 10 verse 28, it speaks of those who "had separated themselves ... . their wives, their sons and their daughters". There seems to be a peculiar valuation put on wives, and sons, and daughters, in a day of recovery. In chapter 12 verse 43, "the women and the children rejoiced". Why should these things be noted. It shows the importance of the women and the children in a day of recovery. Is that right?

Rem. Yes it is.

Ques. You connected the fountain-gate this morning with the personal energy of the Holy Spirit; in what way is the water-gate different?

G.R.C. I think the water-gate would represent the more extended occasions of ministry, when water flows in abundance, with not only its satisfying effect but its cleansing effect.

Ques. Is it significant that the water-gate was not repaired? The fountain-gate was. Would the fountain-gate link with the state of the saints that the Spirit may spring up, but the water-gate with the personality of the Spirit? The Spirit has been here through all these two thousand years. No repair is needed in that respect.

G.R.C. That is very interesting, because the fountain-gate, as you say, must reflect on our state, as to whether the fountain is free to spring up; but you mean the Spirit has been available for this kind of teaching all along, but the saints have not been ready.

Ques. In 1 Corinthians 2 the apostle refers to the Spirit searching "all things, even the depths of God".

Is that what would attract the Corinthians to the idea of the water-gate?

Ques. Would it preserve us from coming to occasions with our minds made up as to matters? The open space before the water-gate surely would make way for the Spirit personally, to give us help and light as we are together.

G.R.C. I would say that; surely we should be together in the spirit of inquiry, ready for light, and seeking to get the bearing of the whole of Scripture on any point that comes up.

Ques. Is that why the difference is made between "Ezra the scribe" being asked "to bring the book of the law" and "Ezra the priest" bringing the law before the people?

G.R.C. Very interesting; say more.

Rem. We come together with the scope of the truth in our souls -- that would be looked for in one who serves and ministers -- but in the actual bringing of things forward is it not the priestly side, what the man is, that enters into his ministry?

G.R.C. And how would that bear on what you have already suggested as to the spirit of inquiry?

Rem. Just that Ezra the priest, in bringing the law before the people, would be dependent upon the people who were there. So that there is a free flow for what is priestly, in the bringing forward of the truth amongst the saints, expanded, and added to, by what each one is.

G.R.C. So that Ezra himself would get help.

Rem. That is what I was thinking. It is not a question of one person to answer all the questions.

Rem. So that others are brought in; in verse 8 it says, "And they read in the law of God distinctly out of the book, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading". Would that be the setting out of the truth in a clarified manner, so that the brethren are carried fully by it, they have a clear

understanding of what is conveyed?

G.R.C. Yes, and there were quite a number engaged in that work.

Rem. It names certain ones in verse 7, indicating how the matter extends, and that the service is carried on in this manner, whereby the truth is conveyed in an intelligent way and answered to.

G.R.C. We are glad to have as many such persons available as we can; they help us giving the sense.

Rem. In the previous chapter there is a reference to "priests' coats" (Nehemiah 7:70, 72), a similar reference, but a lesser number, being found in the early chapters of Ezra (Ezra 2:69).

G.R.C. It is remarkable how the priestly side of things is stressed in the recovery, in these two books. It is a question of God receiving what is due to His Name at the close of the dispensation.

Ques. Would it not raise an exercise with each one of us to see that it is not only a matter of being positionally right -- these people were positionally right -- but that there might be wrought in each one of us that which is in correspondence with the position.

G.R.C. And the people here were ready for that.

Rem. What a delight it must be to heaven to see so many together this afternoon with that in their heart!

Ques. Does understanding imply a readiness to answer in responsibility and privilege?

G.R.C. Yes, and, as things worked out, we find that they were, in fact, ready.

Ques. Does it help to observe that, in Mr. Darby's day, much was written, but, since that day, the accessions of light that have reached the assembly have come out through meetings such as these, in inquiry in the temple?

G.R.C. Quite so. And this in no wise sets aside the idea of gift, as in Ephesians 4:7 - 16.

Rem. It says that "the ears of all the people were

attentive". We were speaking the other day about the eyes, but I thought great gain came by hearing; as it says, in the Revelation, "He that has an ear .."; and is not that the way we make progress in the truth?

G.R.C. I think so; the obedience of faith would be connected with what we hear, and the Spirit graciously gives us vision. He reveals things. So that we get a conception of things, a conception of the assembly. Well, who gave us that conception?

The Spirit of God. We could not get it merely from reading Scripture. So that hearing and seeing enter into things, the Spirit giving us vision; but then, the ear is the first approach, as in the gospel; God appeals to man's ear. The enemy appealed to the ear at the beginning.

Ques. Would the hearing set the conception that we have received into our souls, in order in our minds, so that we should be intelligent?

G.R.C. I think so. Did not F.E.R. say that he went to Scripture to see what he had got? The Spirit had shown him things and he went to Scripture to get the things in order. Not that we do not get things in going to Scripture, the Spirit may show us things as we read Scripture, But however the conception comes, let us go to Scripture and get the bearing of it in the whole of Scripture.

Rem. It seems that the ordered administration of the truth is a very vital thing for our days. I wondered if this particularly stressed the thought of the administration of the truth in an ordered way.

Ques. Is it noticeable that "on the second day" there seems something different? "The chief fathers of all the people, the priests, and the Levites" came "to Ezra the scribe". I suppose they would recognise that he was a man who had something from God and his speaking should be listened to. But "they found written in the law which Jehovah had commanded" this wonderful truth of the feast of tabernacles.

G.R.C. They recognised the ability he had from God, so they came to him "to gain wisdom as to the words of the law".

Rem. But then it says that "they found"; it does not say he told them.

G.R.C. What do you make of that?

Rem. It was what they found in inquiry in the presence of Ezra; it was not just that he said to them that this was so; but I thought it emphasised what had been said before that, as together, we find things.

Ques. And does not that, perhaps, link on with the idea of "the open place" in our hearts? There is the expectancy of enlargement and we are not cramped.

G.R.C. No; so that we are ready for what may come.

Rem. Quite so. One thinks of the Lord sending a few men into "a large upper room furnished"

(Mark 14:15, Luke 22:12); there were few there but they would have had a sense of the possibility of enlargement.

G.R.C. And so there was, because there were "about a hundred and twenty" in the upper room later (Acts 1:15).

Rem. In connection with this second day, it does not say that the women were there, but only those that were able to understand.

Rem. We used to have meetings at which the women were not allowed to be present, three days meetings.

G.R.C. And we based it on this passage, did we not?

Rem. Yes.

Rem. We find it in Mr. Taylor's meetings, Volume 201, pages 125 - 131 inclusive.

G.R.C. What do you think as to present developments?

Rem.

We have the sisters now and we are glad

to have them. I think the meetings are more helpful now than when the sisters were left out. What is in the woman finds expression in the home and the assembly.

Rem. In verse 9, "all the people wept when they heard the words of the law"; then there was this note of comfort for them, "And the Levites quieted all the people, saying, Be still! ..." Perhaps, in these circumstances, inquiry was raised with the chief fathers as to how that might be met. Do you think, in that sense, it was special?

G.R.C. And I would think we must not ignore these elements, chief fathers, and priests, and Levites, although, when you come to Acts, they seem to act in the presence of the whole assembly. They did not seem to be segregated.

Ques. Would "the second day" be the second day of the feast? And would it connect with the "males" appearing before Jehovah according to Deuteronomy 16:16?

G.R.C. How would you apply that to us?

Rem. I thought, perhaps, of what was masculine, brothers and sisters being merged in it.

G.R.C. What is "male" in the Old Testament refers to spiritual energy, does it not? That means that, in our day, sisters are not excluded. I take it, a male among the priests is a functioning priest, with priestly sensibilities alert.

Ques. Would we not include sisters among the priests and Levites today?

G.R.C. We would. Then there is also the idea of responsibility here. In arranging a meeting like this there are those who have taken responsibility for it.

Rem. So that you have a wonderful accumulation of joy under these conditions.

G.R.C. It goes back to Joshua the son of Nun; not that there had not been wonderful feasts of tabernacles meantime, because, when Solomon

brought up the ark, in 2 Chronicles 5, it was at the feast of tabernacles. But what they had not done was to dwell in booths. I take it, that is the feature here. They had returned to the idea of dwelling in booths.

Rem. And from that they proceed to "the eighth day".

G.R.C. Yes. They went back to God's original thought and dwelt in booths, and do you think that would connect specially with the eternal day?

Rem. Yes, Leviticus 23:39, "on the first day there shall be rest, and on the eighth day there shall be rest".

G.R.C. The eighth day was the last, the great day of the feast, and it speaks of eternity.

Rem. True assembly conditions would be reached in the feast of tabernacles; the rich men would leave their mansions, the poor people would leave their hovels, and they would all dwell on a common level in booths.

G.R.C. Yes, a heavenly level. Gatherings such as this are somewhat like that, are they not? Everything is subservient to what is spiritual. Would you say that?

Rem. That is what I was thinking.

Ques. Is not God at the present time in these meetings, conditioning us for dwelling together eternally?

G.R.C. I think so, and I think that is what our brother had in mind in reaching the eighth day; we shall be in wholly spiritual conditions.

Rem. I wonder whether Mr. Darby may have received some of his impressions under such conditions; such impressions as, 'Where the saints in glory thronging'. The element of thronging, under such conditions, would bring in what is substantially heavenly.

Rem. In verses 16 and 17 you get the idea of all the people being in this matter, "And the people went forth ... And all the congregation".

G.R.C. All the people, and it is "the open space of the gate of Ephraim". What fruitfulness for God in conditions like this! Think of the "olive-branches, and wild olive-branches, and myrtle-branches". In the beginning of Zechariah the man on the red horse is "among the myrtle-trees ... in the low valley". It suggests the Lord among His own in these days, controlling all government on the one hand, the other "horses" being behind Him, and yet known amongst His own -- the One to whom all power in heaven and on earth is given. He is among His people, if we are in the gain of being "myrtle-trees .. in the low valley". Here it speaks of "myrtle-branches, and palm-branches".

Ques. Would the fact that they are referred to as "branches" suggest features that would serve to bring about binding conditions, whereby brethren could dwell together?

G.R.C. I would think so. Think of olive-branches, which might refer typically to believing Jews, and wild olive-branches to Gentile brought into the truth, and myrtle-branches -- myrtle was a fragrant plant -- and palm-branches. It is very beautiful to live in conditions like that, spiritual conditions.

Rem. In the feast of tabernacles is God everything to the saints? They are outside of every other circumstance and God is before them.

G.R.C. And that is what we come to in the service of God, when things are right. We come to the point where we are not even occupied with our blessings, we are wholly absorbed with the Blesser and His blessedness.

Ques. Would the fact that John speaks so much of dwelling suggest that these conditions are to be brought about in the days of recovery? I was thinking of John's ministry bearing on this and something being reached in days of recovery that was not reached, even at the beginning.

G.R.C. I think that. The more you think of it, the more you realise what wonderful days we are living in.

Ques. Does the making of these booths start on the roof of your house? The start of the booths is on the roof of their houses.

G.R.C. Yes, "everyone upon the roof of his house, and in their courts". Peter went on the roof (Acts 10:9).

Rem. It is no use to seek to enter into eternal conditions as coming together, if these things have not been made, and are on the roof of your house in that sense.

Rem. "Go forth to the mount", suggesting exercise to get the branches.

G.R.C. Quite so.

Ques. Is it seen in the last four verses of the last chapter of 2 Corinthians? "Salute one another with a holy kiss".

G.R.C. That would be the level of this, surely. We ourselves are the branches; it is a question of going forth to the mount in order to be what we are according to God. Exercise is involved, so that we come as "olive-branches, and wild olive-branches, and myrtle-branches, and palm-branches", and so on.

But now -- going on to chapter 9 -- I think you were saying the other day that it is "on the twenty-fourth day", the day after the feast was over, that you get this remarkable confession. It is in the light of having reached the top-note of things that we can rightly estimate the whole history of the testimony. We can rightly confess our sins and the sins of the people, feeling them with God, and yet the strain that runs through this confession is the faithfulness of God. The emphasis is on the faithfulness of this wondrous God. Therefore they begin by blessing Him "from eternity to eternity. And let men bless the name of thy glory, which is exalted above all blessing and praise".

There are some very sweet touches in this confession: for instance, in verse 19, after they had made the molten calf, it says, "yet thou in thy manifold mercies forsookest them not in the wilderness. The pillar of the cloud departed not from over them by day, to lead them on the way; neither the pillar of fire by night, to shew them light, and the way wherein they should go. Thou gavest also thy good spirit to instruct them, and withheldest not thy manna from their mouths, and gavest them water for their thirst. Yea, forty years didst thou sustain them in the wilderness; they lacked nothing". And this in spite of the idolatry! The faithfulness of God runs through, until verse 31, "Nevertheless for thy manifold mercies' sake, thou didst not make a full end of them nor forsake them; for thou art a gracious and merciful God". That word is "El", "a gracious and merciful El", a title used when God's character is in question.

Ques. Is the fact of the continuing and abiding presence of the Spirit with us one evidence of the infinite faithfulness of God? There are many other features of God's faithfulness, but I was thinking of that particularly and its bearing upon our concern that He should receive His portion.

G.R.C. Yes, especially when you think of the way we grieve the Spirit individually as well as collectively.

It is a wonderful thing that, though grieved, He never leaves us.

Ques. Is there, in a certain way, a basis morally for God's faithfulness remaining in verses 7 and 8?

He says, "who didst choose Abram and broughtest him forth out of Ur of the Chaldees, and gavest him the name of Abraham; and foundest his heart faithful before thee". God's faithfulness remains towards His own because He has a basis for it in what is responsive to Himself.

G.R.C. Quite so, and specially the basis that He has in Christ.

Rem. I was thinking that; He looks upon us in that One.

Ques. Does "the seed of Israel", verse 2, bear upon that? Does the realisation that they are the princely race give rise to this wonderful movement of separation and confession and worship?

G.R.C. Yes, and what is noticeable is that it is after the wall was built. After the building they "separated themselves from all foreigners".

Ques. The reference our brother has quoted speaks of the change of name. It says in verse 7, "who didst choose Abram and broughtest him forth ... .. and gavest him the name of Abraham". That took place at the time when God said to him, "walk before my face, and be perfect". (Genesis 17:1) And the name "Abraham" means 'Father of a multitude'. (Genesis 17:5 footnote). Does that link with your thought, the claims of the truth upon us as walking before God, but the enlargement that comes, 'Father of a multitude'?

G.R.C. Yes. He had to learn in that very covenant, typically, that he could only walk before God in the power of the Spirit. The covenant of circumcision means that God has committed Himself to us in the Spirit and that we are to commit ourselves to Him on the same basis, that we have nothing to say to the flesh.

We ought to say a word on the covenant at the end of this chapter. The time of privilege leading up to the eighth day, and then the confession and the going over God's ways of faithfulness, leads them to "make a sure covenant, and write it". And all the people came into it in verse 28 of chapter 10, the people and "their wives, their sons and their daughters". This is a wonderful thing, whole families were committed to this covenant, and the scope of it was great: first of all, to be separate, in verse 30, and then to keep "the sabbath", a very important matter, in verse 31, and to

give up "exaction". And then in verse 32, they made "ordinances" or 'commandments' (footnote) for themselves, things taken on by themselves, something that, as far as I know, was never commanded, "to charge ourselves yearly with the third part of a shekel for the service of the house of our God". And they have the whole service in their minds.

Ques. Do you think this is how fulness comes into the local gathering?

G.R.C. I do; when you get the brothers and their wives and their sons and their daughters all committed to something like this, you are going to have good times, are you not, and God is going to have His due from His people?

Rem. So the old and the young "flow together" towards the house of God, Jeremiah 31:12.

G.R.C. Very good. And another thing that is referred to here is "the wood-offering". There is the special "third part of a shekel" and "the wood-offering". But, if we read over the passage, they had in mind maintaining all that was due to God in His house, the whole service.

Ques. In what way would you divide the shekel into a third part, if it be "twenty gerahs" (Exodus 30:13)?

G.R.C. What would you say?

Rem. I would say that love alone could solve it. But it seems to be sufficient to carry out the whole service of God.

G.R.C. Do you mean that, in every shekel given, three would have to be moving together?

Rem. That is what I thought: stressing the feature of mutuality.

Ques. Is the wood-offering the sacrificial spirit that might underlie everything?

G.R.C. I thought that; it is that which keeps the fire burning on the altar; it was never to go out.

Rem. And that spirit, active in our localities, would enrich what is for God in our comings together.

G.R.C. I think so; it suggests the way we show the spirit of Christ in serving one another in love, in such a manner that the saints' hearts are kept on fire; and, if the saints' hearts are kept on fire, God will not cease to get His portion.

Rem. And especially so, when they are found together, as it says, "we will not forsake the house of our God".

FIFTH READING

Nehemiah 12:27 - 47; Nehemiah 13:1 - 3, 7 - 9, 22, 28 - 31.

G.R.C. Chapter 12 is a climax in progress in recovery, and therefore a climax in praise and thanksgiving to God, also a climax in joy. Earlier, Ezra 6:16, 22, they had kept the dedication of the house with joy and the feast of unleavened bread with joy, because God had made them joyful; but, in this celebration, the joy is greatly increased. In verse 27, they held "the dedication with gladness, both with thanksgivings, and with singing, with cymbals, lutes and harps". And then, in verse 42, "the singers sang loud; .. And that day they offered great sacrifices, and rejoiced: for God had made them rejoice with great joy; and also the women and the children rejoiced. And the joy of Jerusalem was heard even afar off". So it was really a time of exultation, and surely it is in the mind of God, in the present recovery, that we should complete matters, and that we should experience the joy and exultation of this chapter; a joy which springs from a sense of security for ourselves and for our children and, above all, in the preservation of the holy things of God.

So that comfort is complete, "Nehemiah" meaning 'Comfort of Jehovah'. How much it means to God Himself that His saints should be set together, not only house-wise but city-wise, with the wall completed! What comfort in every way! We read in Zechariah what Jerusalem would be. While the immediate purpose of the prophecy was to encourage the builders of the house, yet the prophecy speaks much of the city. It covers the whole matter. In Zechariah 8:4, "Thus saith Jehovah of hosts:

There shall yet old men and old women sit in the streets of Jerusalem, each one with his staff in his hand for multitude of days. And the streets of the city shall be full of boys and girls playing in the streets thereof". There is nothing to harm them, and the boys and girls are joyful, as well as the old men and the old women. "They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain" (Isaiah 11:9). And God would have conditions like that among the saints now. So that the women here rejoiced and the children rejoiced. I suppose there was never a day when the children were so happy amongst the saints. The boys and girls are free and happy in the streets of Jerusalem.

But that could not be so, if the wall were not completed, not that we can say it is finally completed, but we are moving on and we are getting the gain of what completion means. So the point here is the dedication of the wall.

Ques. What do you understand by the dedication of the wall?

G.R.C. Earlier, in Ezra 6, there was the dedication of the house; I think it means that we dedicate ourselves, house-wise and, as we may say, wall-wise. "Whose house are we" (Hebrews 3:6). And we dedicate ourselves to what we are. And then, as we have been seeing, the wall really is the saints, and we dedicate ourselves to the matter with gladness, and it really means being true to what we are. John says, "we are of God, and the whole world lies in the wicked one". (1 John 5:19). The Lord Jesus says, "They are not of the world, as I am not of the world". (John 17:16). If we are true to what we are, as born of God, we really constitute the wall. Our reactions to everything around will be in keeping with the divine nature; our reactions will be, as God Himself would react. But we are to dedicate ourselves to that, because we are still in mixed conditions and we can allow our

reactions to be fleshly and natural; but we are to dedicate ourselves to what we really are and do it with gladness.

Ques. What are we to learn from the Levites being brought into this matter?

G.R.C. It seems that it was essential to get the Levites: "they sought the Levites out of all their places"; and "the priests and the Levites purified themselves; and they purified the people, and the gates and the wall". The singers were of the tribe of Levi, as also the players on musical instruments, and the doorkeepers. So the Levitical element is essential. We might note, as to the music, that the priests use the trumpets; that is so, I think, right through the Scripture; and here, in verse 35, "the priests' sons with trumpets" and, in verse 41, "the priests, ... . with trumpets". But the Levites use the "cymbals, lutes and harps". Would you say some more?

Rem. It is a remarkable thing that they came from a right marriage in the first instance, standing over against the mixed marriages that seem to have come in.

G.R.C. Quite so; mixed marriages had to be dealt with in the next chapter, particularly in verse 23, and some of the leaders were involved in them. There were "wives of Ashdod, of Ammon, and of Moab". The Philistine, the Ammonite, and the Moabite are the great dangers in the exercise we are dealing with.

Rem. I suppose, the more we know the joy, the more there will be the answer in the dedication. It seems to suggest that that feature marked the saints at the beginning.

G.R.C. It did: "they persevered in the teaching and fellowship of the apostles, in breaking of bread and prayers". (Acts 2:42). And in those days the wall was functioning, the saints were functioning

wall-wise. The building of the wall was jasper, and I think that was in evidence in the early chapters of Acts.

Rem. Acts 2:46, "And every day, being constantly in the temple with one accord, and breaking bread in the house, they received their food with gladness and simplicity of heart, praising God".

G.R.C. Undoubtedly the wall was there and came into manifestation in its protective character in chapter 5.

Ques. Were you thinking that the priests' blowing of the trumpets would alert the position and the people, and the Levites were to attend on that?

G.R.C. The priestly element is ever controlling the service.

Rem. There is an interesting setting under Hezekiah, when the priests cleansed the temple, but the Levites were left the work of removing the impurity from the court, 2 Chronicles 29:16, "And the Levites took it to carry it forth into the brook Kidron". Is that the part of the service that involves the practical carrying out of all that the priest might call attention to?

G.R.C. That is very good. The Levites are the workmen, the active element.

Rem. It says in verses 44 and 45, "the portions assigned by the law for the priests and the Levites; for Judah rejoiced over the priests, and over the Levites that waited. And, with the singers and the doorkeepers, they kept the ward of their God, and the ward of the purification, according to the commandment of David and of Solomon his son".

G.R.C. That is a beautiful verse, following all the gladness that marks the dedication. This should be the state marking us all, the Judah element. Judah is always in the lead. "Judah" means 'Praise' and it was "the princes of Judah" that were brought up upon the wall. The priests take the lead and give

direction in the actual service of God; but Judah has his own place always. Nehemiah himself was of the tribe of Judah, the royal tribe, and it is a great thing when the kingly and priestly elements are entirely together in affection. And that is the idea here; "Judah rejoiced over the priests, and over the Levites that waited".

Rem. With regard to this Levitical matter in Ezra 8, he seems to give "a commission to Iddo the chief" in view of getting "ministers for the house of our God. And by the good hand of our God upon us, they brought us a man of understanding, of the sons of Mahli, the son of Levi, the son of Israel, namely, Sherebiah, with his sons and his brethren, eighteen". Was there not a lack in the numbers of Levites and might we not refer to that today, the need for an increase among the Levites?

G.R.C. I believe so. The "fast ... at the river Ahava", in Ezra 8, was due to that, was it not, that he found none of the sons of Levi in that new move? That was a great reproach. There had been those in the original move under Zerubbabel, but in the move sixty-eight years later none of the sons of Levi was there. So that you can see the need for our being energised on Levitical lines. While priestly features are seen preponderatingly in our revival, and I think that is the will of God that it should be, yet the Levitical side is essential and we all need stirring up, like Timothy. Timothy was a priestly man. Paul called to mind his "tears", showing what a priestly man he was; but he tells him "to rekindle the gift" which is in him (2 Timothy l: 4 - 6). That is, he is stirring up Timothy in his capacity as a Levite and tells him that "God has not given us a spirit of cowardice, but of power, and of love, and of wise discretion". Power, and love, and wisdom are needed in Levites in the practical work of the house and the city.

Rem. You could hardly have the continuance and

maintenance of the priests apart from the Levites. The Levites were to be joined to the priests and were to support them in their service, and they were to give their tithes to the priests, were they not?

G.R.C. From that standpoint, the priests were dependent upon them. On the other hand, for direction the Levites were dependent upon the priests. And that shows how interwoven these features are and the essentiality of unity amongst us. "Levi" means 'Unity'.

Ques. Do you think that the deficiency lies, perhaps, in the fact that we often class Levites as a special class of person? I think that we have got into that habit; we speak of the Levites. We are terrible people of habit. Do you not think that it is just a department of our lives, as sustaining what is priestly with us, just as we are common people as well?

G.R.C. We cannot classify in the way persons were classified in the past dispensation. We are all priests on account of the anointing; as it says in Exodus 40:15, "And their anointing shall be to them an everlasting priesthood". But then, we are all Levites, we are first-born ones, called to take our part in the work. The Levites are not limited to the gifts of Ephesians 4. Those gifts were sovereignly given from Christ ascended in His love for the assembly, and in principle there is a continuation; but all the saints have priestly responsibilities and Levitical responsibilities, every one of us. And then we should also recognise our royal responsibilities, as of the tribe of Judah.

Rem. So it says, "the priests and the Levites purified themselves"; is there a tendency with us to think that certain are already purified, but the exercise here is that they themselves purify themselves, before mentioning the people?

G.R.C. It is a continual thing; we have to be watching all the time. The purifying process must be

maintained. "And they purified the people, and the gates and the wall", And then, as our brother has pointed out, in verse 45 there is "the ward of the purification". The priests, and the Levites that waited, with the singers and the doorkeepers, "kept the ward of their God, and the ward of the purification, according to the commandment of David and of Solomon his son". So that the whole thing is done in buoyancy. Purification is not to be a sad matter, as though we were very sorry to part with what belongs to man after the flesh; the thing is done in the spirit of praise and worship. The singers enter into it.

Ques. If I may refer to 2 Chronicles 5, are the priests and the Levites beautifully unified in the service? I am thinking of how it says, verse 13, "it came to pass when the trumpeters", who were the priests, "and singers", who were the Levites, "were as one, to make one voice to be heard in praising and thanking Jehovah". Does that show how they blend and are unified in this great matter of the service of God?

G.R.C. As the service proceeds, are not trumpet notes given in the Spirit's power and under the Lord's leading -- distinct impressions which move us forward in the praise? And would not the stringed instruments refer to the hearts of the saints vibrating, as they answer to the trumpet note?

Rem. I would think that. You mean that the trumpet brings in some distinctive impression which moves the hearts of the saints in further response.

Ques. Is that why the priests, in the inauguration under David, "blew with the trumpets before the ark of God", and then later, when there is the blending of "clarions, ... cymbals, playing aloud with lutes and harps", it goes on to say, "the priests with trumpets continually, before the ark of the covenant of God"?

Everything receives its impulse from Christ Himself.

G.R.C. Are you thinking of 1 Chronicles 15:24?

Rem. Yes, and continuing down to verse 28, and then again in chapter 16: 6, prior to the word, "David delivered first this psalm", in verse 7. I was thinking that in our day, if we keep our eyes on Christ as the "minister of the holy places" (Hebrews 8:2), we shall receive the right note.

G.R.C. The ark of God was there. God shines forth from between the cherubim. It is a wonderful situation to be in, before the ark of God.

Ques. Is it to be noted that the first feature that marks the Levites is that they are proved persons? I am referring to Deuteronomy 33:8.

G.R.C. Yes, and it was on that account that the priests were also of that tribe, because, it says there, they were to offer burnt-offerings. The priestly side is included in that.

Ques. You have referred to additional features that come in in the day of recovery. In relation to the Levites, do the references in Nehemiah to the Nethinim bring in this feature; persons who were not in an official class, but doing the work of the Levite and peculiarly seen in Nehemiah's day on the wall of Ophel?

G.R.C. It seems that the very lack of Levites brought out the devotion of the Nethinim.

Ques. Do you think that the Levites bring in the heavenly side as to the saints, "the assembly of the firstborn who are registered in heaven" (Hebrews 12:23)?

G.R.C. Quite so. Everything is to be done on that level, is it not, relative to the service of God, because we are a heavenly company? Even our responsibilities down here as men in flesh should be carried out with heavenly lustre.

Rem. Later on, in the next chapter, Nehemiah found that the Levites "had fled every one to his field" (verse 10), which would mean an earthly occupation, would it not, whereas they should be devoted to the

heavenly side? The service of God involves the heavenly side, does it not?

G.R.C. Our earthly occupations are to be incidental, entirely tributary to what we are as relative to God in His house.

Ques. Is there a suggestion of that in the last verse of the chapter? "And all Israel, in the days of Zerubbabel", all contributed to what was in mind and sustained it.

G.R.C. So that all Israel were in this matter and, as Israel, we are princes of God, moving here in the power of the Spirit in spiritual wealth in our path of responsibility; so that everything done in the path of responsibility contributes to the house of God. "The portions of the singers and the doorkeepers" are maintained and the Levites and the priests are maintained.

Rem. So that matters are not only to be attained as an objective but sustained in power.

G.R.C. That is the point of the end of this chapter. Things were to be sustained. The joy of Judah over the priests and the Levites was to be sustained and the Levites were to keep the ward of their God and the ward of the purification, because the need for watchfulness and purification never ceases with any one of us. Inward purification has to be maintained all the time and external matters will tend to encroach always. So there is the ward of their God, and the ward of the purification, and then there is this supply that all Israel brings, to sustain the saints in the service.

Rem. And constant consecration: "and they consecrated things for the Levites; and the Levites consecrated for the children of Aaron".

G.R.C. Just so. The whole nation was in it, and so all the saints should be in it. It really means that the whole of our lives are dedicated to God.

Ques. Would that lie behind what is said, that "they sought the Levites out of all their places, to

bring them to Jerusalem"? Is that a great gathering from all matters that would relate to what is personal, to bring into the service of God at the divine centre?

G.R.C. Quite so.

Rem. In regard to the number of Levites, is it not remarkable that, after the Lord had appointed twelve, He "appointed seventy others also" and asked them to "supplicate ... the Lord of the harvest that he may send out workmen into his harvest". (Luke 10:1,2)? At that time there were eighty-two full-time workers in a very small land. Would that not remind us of the greatness of the work to be done and that every one may have a part in it?

G.R.C. I am sure; so that we need to be concerned, each one of us, to have our part in it and to put these things first.

Ques. You remarked that the priests outnumbered the Levites throughout these two books; would that indicate that the influence of Babylon is very powerful over those who might well be fitted to help the saints?

G.R.C. Indeed it is. The systems around us often hold people in captivity because of their so-called church-work, and people who might move do not move because of their church work; they think they are useful where they are. But they are really held captive, because these systems of men are not churches.

We ought never to let it pass, when people say they belong to this church or that church; in faithfulness to God, I believe, we should inform the persons concerned that what they call a church is not a church, it is a human organisation. That might help to liberate them from it. They are just serving a human organisation, and we should seek to tell them what the church is -- the one and only church, the church (assembly) of Christ.

Rem. You will notice the place the Levite has in the Acts. The common man, as we would say, is recovered in chapter 3, but the Levite, in Joseph

surnamed Barnabas, in the last two verses of chapter 4, and the priest in the next chapter. What you say is borne out in verses 36 and 37 of Acts 4.

G.R.C. Then, I think, there is a reference to priests.

Rem. In chapter 6, verse 7, "a great crowd of the priests obeyed the faith". It is interesting to see how the Levite, "being possessed of land, having sold it, brought the money and laid it at the feet of the apostles".

G.R.C. Yes, Barnabas became a true Levite in the spiritual sense of the word, devoted to the tabernacle of testimony, to God's house.

But I think we should move on to the "great choirs".

Rem. Are we all constituted priests and Levites; but is it your present exercise that we should all function as priests and Levites?

G.R.C. Just so. Here "the priests and the Levites purified themselves" with a view to functioning.

Ques. Why is it that the "processions" are "upon the wall"? I notice that the wall is continuous and entirely encircles the house of God, and so on; but does it mean that there is a substantial thing produced in the exercises of separation that supports the movement in this direction?

G.R.C. The wall is a substantial development in the saints at the present time and it is the basis on which these two choirs move.

Ques. May the use of the word "choir" suggest some refined feature that, perhaps, did not appear, even under David?

G.R.C. That is interesting; "two great choirs and processions" and, of course, there would be public testimony connected with this, "on the right hand upon the wall towards the dung-gate". We have often noticed as to the distinction of the two choirs. One appears to relate to privilege and service Godward,

now liberated, because the wall is complete, and the second choir relates to administration manward, involving fruitfulness, "the gate of Ephraim", and yet dealing, according to God, with all that is contrary; and the whole thing is a matter of exultation. They go over the whole ground with exultation; all the moral features that are suggested in the gates were now typically in existence and functioning. So that it reminds us of the word, "thou shalt call thy walls Salvation, and thy gates Praise". Here were the walls, encircled with song and praise to God and joyful people, and the singers and the doorkeepers were at the gates.

Ques. It suggests substantiality, do you think, in the wall, that it could sustain choirs of this character? Might we think of it as the crowning of a wall in its substantiality for the praise of God?

G.R.C. Yes, and the wall implies that the city idea is in the affections of the saints, that we are functioning city-wise. We have learned to function house-wise in Ezra, now the city is really functioning. It cannot function till the wall is complete.

Rem. It is to be noted in that way that "the ascent" is "by the stairs of the city of David", the city idea being there and the ascent being in accord with it.

G.R.C. I think so, and it says, "towards the dung-gate", as though that is the starting-point of the way of privilege and service Godward. So that the word in Corinthians is, "But let a man prove himself, and thus eat of the bread, and drink of the cup". (1 Corinthians 11:28).

Ques. Why is it that "the princes" are "brought up" "upon the wall"?

G.R.C. We are all to be princes; "Israel" means that, 'Prince of God', and we are not of much value, relative to the house of God, unless we are truly princes. Only those who can be called "Israel" experimentally are in the liberty of sonship. "Israel

is my son, my first-born". (Exodus 4:22). It means that we are in the gain of the Spirit and we have an income equal to our position as sons. So these were "the princes of Judah"; it would imply persons who have been through the exercises of Romans 7 and 8 and are in the liberty of sonship and taking a lead in a kingly way.

Ques. Would the idea of "choirs" mean that there was unification with them? It is not just spontaneity, but spontaneity with regulation.

Rem. I thought it would involve that idea of really merging together under leadership.

Ques. You spoke elsewhere of unison; there is unity and unison. Would that come in in the choir?

G.R.C. The great end in view in all this building work is unison in praise. We have it in 2 Chronicles 5 in the beginning and now we have it here at the end; but there are three things to remember: unity; we are to be unified ourselves; then union, we must know our relations with Christ; and that leads on to unison in praise. And the unison here is not only in each choir but finally, in verse 40, "both choirs stood in the house of God". That is the great culmination.

Rem. In the Babylonish system the thought of the choir and the procession, from which through grace we have been recovered, has had a very great place; is it so now that the real thing has been recovered in the saints?

G.R.C. Very good; this is the real procession.

Ques. And why are the two choirs going in opposite directions?

G.R.C. Because they are opposite directions, are they not? The line of privilege and service Godward is one line, the up line, as we may say; and then there is the line of administration manward, which is from God down.

Ques. Do they move from a centre up? He says, "I brought up the princes of Judah upon the wall".

G.R.C. Yes, and then they join "in the house of God", so that the activities merge in promoting the praise in the house of God.

Ques. Why are the persons named in the first instance, but not in the second?

G.R.C. I could not say; perhaps you have something on your mind.

Ques. I wondered whether, on the side of the service of God, there is distinctiveness of personality seen, whilst the unity you speak of is maintained; but, on the side of administration and what is manward, individuals do not come into such prominence.

G.R.C. That is an interesting suggestion, because, while we are merged assemblywise, there is the distinction, as you say, that marks each person. But the great point, I suppose, in administration manward is that we should be one in the representation of God.

Ques. It is rather remarkable, too, that a prince has power with God and with man.

G.R.C. Quite so. There is the going up and the coming down, as it were.

Ques. Do you think that the two choirs merging would imply there is no disparity between the privilege line and the administrative; so that the joy of Jerusalem can only be entered into as both these lines are pursued and completed?

G.R.C. That is very helpful, and it is a matter that we should be exercised about, because, I suppose, our weakness lies most in the second line. We often feel how weak we are in administration manward.

Ques. Why is it that Ezra the scribe goes before them in the first choir and Nehemiah follows after in the second?

G.R.C. Nehemiah is the kingly element, of the tribe of Judah; Ezra, the priestly element. You can understand Ezra going before in the way of giving a lead in the first, Nehemiah coming in the rear in the way of support in all that is done in the second.

Rem. It is very interesting, the distinction between the choirs, trained singers, and Chenaniah in 1 Chronicles 15:27. The procession is attached to them. Will it not encourage young people to join in the procession, if they are not up to the choir? You need to come under the instruction of Chenaniah to learn to sing music, trained music.

G.R.C. "Chenaniah chief of the music of the singers". There is a reference earlier in verse 22, "And Chenaniah, chief of the Levites for the music, gave instruction in music, for he was skilful". And the note says it is music "Or 'transport'". But there is the idea of instruction in spiritual music, and I think you have in mind that, if the young people join in the procession, they will qualify to take part in the choir, and they will gradually get more and more skilled. It is in joining in the thing that we get the skill; is that right?

Rem. Quite so.

G.R.C. And then music being 'transport' is very interesting. 'My soul is all transported'. The wonderful thing about spiritual song -- they prophesied, it is a prophetic matter -- is that song brings in the mind of God relative to Himself and His purpose, not relative to our state, and, if we are in the Spirit, we are transported into the very surroundings we are singing about, in our spirits. That is needful, if God is to get the worship from our hearts that is His due.

Ques. And does not the thought of singing bring out the feelings of the saints as having spiritual impressions, rather than only intelligence?

G.R.C. Indeed it does.

Ques. What is the difference between offering and singing? You get both thoughts in the types; sacrifices, and then this that was introduced by David, "the service of song" (1 Chronicles 6:31).

G.R.C. I think the offerings underlie the service of song, Moses underlies David. There is the Mosaic

side of the service and there is the Davidic side, and the Moses side is never given up, as we have read in these books, they go back to Moses, "the law of Moses the man of God" (Ezra 3:2). Moses gives instruction as to offerings. We did not enlarge on it, but, when the altar was set up, there were offerings; then, when the house was set up, they were greatly increased. The increase would, in the main, be in the way of sacrifices of peace-offerings. Burnt-offerings were prescribed for the different feasts, although there could be voluntary burnt-offerings as well; but burnt-offerings were prescribed; whereas the peace-offerings, except in two places, were not prescribed.

Initially the peace-offering refers to the way Christ loved us and gave Himself for us. He died for us, He died for our wealth and prosperity, He died to establish the Christian fellowship. And the wealth among the people, both in our own well-being and joy spiritually and in what goes up to God, depends on the number of peace-offerings; and that depends on the amount of love amongst the saints, the amount we are prepared to sacrifice. He laid down His life for us, that is the peace-offering, and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. I believe that the substantial idea of sacrifice underlies the service of song. The service of song would have no reality, it would be like a trained choir in the world, if there were not sacrificial offerings underlying. Is that right?

Rem. That is helpful. Would you think that the singing and the instruments would bring out the refinement of formation under Christ, too. It says, "of David the man of God", here, what he was personally; that must enter into the service, must it not, the formation that is in the saints?

G.R.C. It must. That refers to the more refined idea. If we are committed on the line of the sacrificial offerings, we come under David, Christ as Head, and become formed by His own affections and sensibilities,

and the service of song stands related to that, "the instruments which I made" (1 Chronicles 23:5).

Ques. Is not the thought of praise connected with the sacrifice in Hebrews 13:15, "By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise continually to God"?

G.R.C. Quite so; so that, if the element of sacrifice is not underlying it in the way of our devotion to God, the praise is just a formality, is it not?

Rem. Surely.

G.R.C. We have got choirs around us in all the cathedrals and other places; but what does it mean for God? In many cases there are no real substantial offerings in the way of sacrifice underlying it. It is just to please men's ear.

Rem. In chapter 11: 23 the importance of it seems to be brought out. It says, "it was the king's commandment concerning them, and there was a settled portion for the singers, due for each day". It speaks about "the sons of Asaph, the singers, for the work of the house of God. For it was the king's commandment ..."

G.R.C. That is good, and that comes on the line of this substantial idea of sacrifice and offering.

Ques. Do you think that the unity you are speaking of, as set out in these two choirs, should raise sober exercises amongst us at present, because is it not a fact that there has been a tendency to divergency on both these lines, that is, in regard to the order of the service and in regard to administrative matters as well? I wondered whether what you are saying should not be taken home by us in practical exercise, so that practical unity may come amongst us in regard of these things.

G.R.C. I think it will do, if there is purification. If there is lack of unity, there is lack of purification; the flesh has got in somehow.

Ques. Is that why the Lord speaking to the Father in John 17:17 says, "Sanctify them by the truth: thy

word is truth"? The whole tenor of the Lord's desire is that we may be free, on the one hand, to be with Him where He is and free, on the other hand, to appear in the world as not of it.

G.R.C. "We have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all". (Hebrews 10:10). That is the divine side. Sanctification in the Spirit is the practical side. But I believe the passage you quote means that we are to be brought into sanctification intelligently.

Rem. It says in verse 45, "And with the singers and the doorkeepers, they kept the ward of their God, and the ward of the purification, according to the commandment of David and of Solomon his son".

G.R.C. So that it is a matter of vigilance all the time with each one of us. Now the wall was complete, they were able to carry out the law that "the Ammonite and the Moabite should not come into the congregation of God for ever". And that is a thing we have to see to. Sanballat was a Moabite and Tobijah an Ammonite. They represent elements from which we all need to purify ourselves. Moab would refer to family and social status -- the word is said to mean 'Water of a father'; and Ammon to nationalism, the word meaning 'Fellow-countryman'. Eliashib the priest was corrupted by both through marriage links with Tobijah and Sanballat; and these elements corrupt the Protestant profession around. Tobijah's great chamber in the courts of the house of God would be a spurious spiritual influence; and we have to beware lest any such influence is allowed amongst us. Israel occupied the plains of Moab and held them for God; and we are to hold our families and our businesses for God.

But we do not allow these things to influence us in the assembly. The wall is to exclude natural and national influences. Why do we compare one country

with another? "The new man" (Ephesians 4:24) is the same everywhere, true to himself wherever he is, and thus you find the same features expressed in the brethren in every land. Ashdod is mentioned, too, in verse 23 of chapter 13; they had married wives of Ashdod, as well as of Ammon and Moab. So the Philistine element is also always to be guarded against. Let us, therefore, purify ourselves from Ammon and Moab and Philistia. They are three things that cause disunity.

Rem. So it is important, it is "using diligence to keep the unity of the Spirit in the uniting bond of peace". (Ephesians 4:3).

G.R.C. Quite so. Acts 15 is the great example. There was the danger of the nationalistic rift. The greatest national barrier on earth is that between Jew and Gentile. And Paul, although he knew that what he had was from Christ ascended, went up in all lowliness and meekness, to keep the unity of the Spirit; and the Spirit came in, as He will, to support what comes from the Man above the heavens. He used Peter and James, the most suitable vessels for the purpose, to carry the saints. And so the danger of a rift was met.

Ques. Do you think the wood-offering as the common outlet would be the answer? The wood-offering would mean everybody serviceable at the altar. Nothing would pass the wood-offering.

G.R.C. And the wood-offering does not require skill in the way some services do. It is a work we can all take up; we can wash one another's feet, we can do the work of slaves.

Ques. I notice in chapter 10 the wood-offering precedes the first-fruits; would there be moral order in that?

G.R.C. Say what you have in mind.

Rem. I thought that the wood-offering means the total dedication of the believer to the service of

the altar and, apart from that, we can hardly look for first-fruits.

G.R.C. I am sure that is good. The wood-offering is what keeps the fire burning, and, from one standpoint, the fire on the altar is the fire in the hearts of the saints. What goes up from the altar, unless the hearts of the saints are burning? And the wood-offering means that we are doing anything, however menial it may be, to keep the fire going in the hearts of the saints. So we would be active all the week. If a sister is ill, there will be sisters there to help her, in any practical services needful. I think all that enters into the wood-offering.

Rem. And in the last verse they are brought together. That is what is left with us in the book, "the wood-offering" and "the first-fruits".

Rem. So Paul gathered sticks, when the need arose (Acts 28:3).

G.R.C. And he worked with his hands to have something to give. When the saints realised that night and day he was serving them in the ministry, and yet also working with his hands, to have something to give in a material way, how that would have warmed their hearts and set them on fire!

Rem. And when the Lord came out of death, the result of His service for two going into their own matters was, "Was not our heart burning in us?" (Luke 24:32). Do you think, if our visiting one another was on that basis, even as much as on Matthew 18, it would help us in the unity?

G.R.C. I am sure it would. The Lord Jesus is "the shepherd and overseer of" our "souls" (1 Peter 2:25), and think of the shepherd service and the oversight as He went on the way to Emmaus! Think of what the Lord had on hand to do! Yet He found time to go all that way with them. He went along with them and listened to them and the end of it was their hearts were burning, and they were back in

Jerusalem as soon as possible.

Ques. He did not tell them what to do; do you think it is important to be able to reach the hearts of the saints and to stir them in such wise in regard to the truth that they do the right thing without being told what they have got to do?

G.R.C. We find instances of that. Souls are converted, their hearts are burning, and they purify themselves without any specific injunctions. If we served one another so that our hearts were burning, it would greatly help those who are faced with external matters of purification. If their hearts are on fire, what will stand in the way? They will say, 'We must get back to Jerusalem and we must be in accord with the wall, whatever happens'.

Ques. Would you say something about the way in which Nehemiah moves in chapter 13?

G.R.C. You mean, the way he is energetic in dealing with things.

Rem. Yes, his faithfulness.

G.R.C. He acts in a kingly way, with power. With the word of a king there is power. He "casts forth all the household stuff of Tobijah". We do not want anything of that kind among the saints. And then later, he dealt with things drastically.

Ques. Certain things seem to come in in the absence of Nehemiah; what is your thought about that? I wondered whether it might represent an element that needs to be maintained; the faithful element that is taking up things for God. Things should not be allowed to drag on, matters should be taken up, in a right way, of course, but still taken up, would you not think?

G.R.C. They should be taken up. There is the case of Tobijah, and the mixed marriages, and then the concern about "the sabbath day", a concern that nothing should disturb the rest of God. The wall was finished and in verse 22 he had that in mind; he "commanded

the Levites that they should purify themselves, and that they should come and keep the gates, to hallow the sabbath day".

Ques. Verse 4 says, "And before this"; may we gather from that that the history of Tobijah recorded in chapter 13 actually preceded the "great choirs and processions" of chapter 12, so that they really finished on the top-note?

G.R.C. It would appear to be so.

Ques. Would it be right for me to say that I would be afraid of Tobijah in my own heart? These elements are not what we deal with in one another only, are they? Your idea of purification is that these things come into my heart and I might project them amongst the saints.

G.R.C. There is always the tendency to look at the other man. The doctors of the law laid burdens on others, but did not move them with their little finger (Luke 11:46). But the Christian, who knows the grace of God, begins with himself and then, in having to deal with others, he has entirely different feelings, because he has begun with himself and he does not know anyone worse than himself, and that is the basis on which he approaches others. Is that right?

Rem. That is what I thought. When Ehud went to Eglon king of Moab, he "made him a sword having two edges" (Judges 3:16); would he have judged the matter in himself, in that sense, ruthlessly?

G.R.C. That is what I would say. I do not think we can help others in a spiritual way unless we have dealt with the matter in ourselves; and, if we deal with things in ourselves, we shall feel and know that we cannot meet anyone worse than ourselves.

Ques. Is the seriousness of Tobijah reflected in what he displaces more than what he brings in? I was thinking of verse 5, "where formerly they laid the oblations, the frankincense, and the vessels";

it is a question and a serious matter as to what is displaced by the allowance of such an element.

Ques. What about "the language of Ashdod"? I was contrasting it with Zephaniah 3:9, "For then will I turn to the peoples a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of Jehovah, to serve him with one consent".

G.R.C. That is good. We need to have a pure language, so that we "may with one accord, with one mouth, glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ". (Romans 15:6).

THE BUILDING OF ITS WALL WAS JASPER

Hebrews 2:10; Revelation 21:9 - 12, 14, 17 - 27; Revelation 22:1 - 5,14.

I wish, dear brethren, to speak of glory as bearing on the wall of the city, and the verse we commenced with is fundamental to all that is in mind. "For it became him", God, "for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make perfect the leader of their salvation through sufferings". Through grace we are among those "many sons"; sonship is fundamental to Christianity. Other families will have that relationship conferred upon them in some degree; but we have it, so far as creatures are concerned, in surpassing measure. We have been singing in our hymn as to it: 'Like Thine own Son, with Him above, In brightest heav'nly bliss'.

Our sonship is of such an order that we are to be with Jesus where He is, we are to be in the immediate presence of God, His Father and our Father, His God and our God: such is our portion. Like Him we are 'to know that glory beam Unhindered, face to face!' How great our calling is, what a destiny is ours! How things of earth pale into insignificance as we think of what we have been called to, and how our hearts are bowed in worship as we think of Him, for Whom are all things and by Whom are all things.

A primary thought in His mind in all His operations, for all things are by Him, has been the great purpose to bring many sons to glory and, in order to achieve that purpose, it has involved a Divine Person becoming incarnate, "the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us" (John 1:14); a most amazing thing!

A Divine Person, the One by Whom all things were made, became flesh and entered Himself into the relationship of Son, a relationship which He retains throughout all eternity. All that pertains to Him in Deity remains and yet we know Him now as a glorified Man in the presence of God, the Son, and He is the leader of our salvation. He is the One by Whom God brings many sons to glory, and, to be qualified as a leader to do such a thing as that, He had to be made perfect through suffering. That word "perfect" involves qualification; the only way He could qualify to be a Leader of a heavenly company, such as we are through grace, was to suffer, and to suffer sufferings that are untold and unfathomed by the creature. He fathomed them, and we can think of what that meant to the Father, the anguish of the Father's heart, for the Father's love is brought before us in Scripture in type, first of all in a setting of anguish, "Take now thy son, thine only son, whom thou lovest, Isaac" (Genesis 22:2). Think of what it meant to the Father! Think also of what it meant to the Holy Spirit, when He "by the eternal Spirit offered himself spotless to God" (Hebrews 9:14)!

Let us keep near to the cross, dear brethren, and all that it means, Jesus hanging there, every indignity having been heaped upon Him by men. And then, when men had done all the evil to Him that they could do, He Himself became the Victim, in order to effect the work of reconciliation, so great in its scope that it affects heaven and earth, but having a special effect upon us, as on the day of atonement there was that which Aaron did for himself and his house. And so the Leader has been made perfect through sufferings. It would include, no doubt, all His sufferings, but it includes certainly the sufferings of atonement. And thus, as now glorified, He is qualified as the Leader; and, according to chapter 1 of this book, He is "the effulgence of" God's "glory and the

expression of his substance".

Wonderful to think of Jesus! He glorified God in the darkest hour, when He was made sin for us. He was morally glorified in that; there never was such moral glory. "Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him". (John 13:31). Think of the moral glory of the cross, One who would go that way in absolute perfection, His spirit never ruffled! "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do". (Luke 23:34). In Gethsemane He began to be sorrowful and deeply depressed, yet, in all His ways, representing God in every circumstance in absolute perfection. He was the perfect Representative of God in every situation He had to face. But now, He has glorified God in death and God has glorified Him, and we see Him now in the presence of God. He has entered in as our forerunner, and He is the effulgence of God's glory.

And, as among the many sons, we are to enter now by the Spirit into the meaning of being brought to glory. And where do we see the glory? Shining in a glorified Man! Marvellous thing! We see the glory of God in radiant display in a glorified Man, and that Man is our righteousness and our life, our very title to be there. Indeed, when we ourselves are glorified, we shall have "become God's righteousness in him" (2 Corinthians 5:21), the eternal display of God's righteousness. How secure we are, Christ our righteousness and we the righteousness of God in Him! And that very One, who is our righteousness, is the effulgence of God's glory; and, as thus in the presence of Jesus, the glorified Man within the veil, we find ourselves in the presence of the effulgence of God's glory; many sons brought to glory.

Now we ought to understand glory; it should not be just a vague term to us. Scripture speaks of "the shining forth of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ". (2 Corinthians 4:6). There is "the

knowledge" of it; how much do we know about it? Many sons brought to glory; sons should be intelligent; that is one great feature of sonship. Affection is one feature, intelligence another. God would have His sons intelligent about everything. Ephesians tells us that He has "marked us out beforehand for 'sonship'" (Ephesians 1:5, footnote), and then goes on to tell us that He has abounded "towards us in all wisdom and intelligence", making known His secrets to us. God has secured us as sons, that we might be before Him in affection and intelligence, trustworthy, that He might be able to deposit His secrets with us as to Christ and the assembly and all that He has in mind. But then, there is nothing greater than the full knowledge of God. The apostle prays (Ephesians l: 17) that "God ... would give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the full knowledge of him". There is no greater occupation than to be occupied with God.

So there is the question of the light "of the knowledge of the glory of God"; we should be intelligent as to the way God is shining out. It is not that God has changed, from eternity and to eternity He is God; but because of the way He has come out in the economy of grace, in the incarnation and glorification of Christ, all that He is in His nature and character is now in full display, and that is His glory. What we see in that glorified Jesus, who died on the cross for us, is the radiant display of God's nature and character, His attributes in perfect conciliation with His nature; His love in perfect conciliation with all that He is in righteousness, holiness, mercy, compassion.

And so we should have a knowledge of that. That is how we come to the knowledge of God. We are privileged to look upon "the glory of the Lord, with unveiled face" (2 Corinthians 3:18). Moses went in without a veil to that which was a figure of the true. God was known in some measure, but there was no full knowledge of God then. And no one could look upon the

glory then shining except Moses. But our privilege is to go into the presence of God and look on the glory of the Lord with unveiled face. We see God m radiant display in a glorified Man. Now, that is the privilege of the sons, and we are there in perfect liberty, because we are sons. We are conscious of the Father's love, that sovereign love which sought us, and found us. We should not have moved towards God, although God was shining in radiant display, but for the Father's activities. "Light is come into the world, and men have loved darkness rather than light" (John 3:19). The fact that there is any result from the outshining of God is because of the Father's sovereign love and activities and, under the Father, as it were, the activities of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Sovereign activities have brought us into this and we are embraced in that wondrous love, the Father's love for the Son, and in the current of the Son's love for the Father, for we have the Spirit of His Son.

What a wonderful thing the gospel is, the forgiveness of sins, the gift of sonship, and the gift of the Holy Spirit! I have put them in that order, because Galatians speaks of that order. We "are all God's sons by faith in Christ Jesus" and "because" we "are sons, God has sent out the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, Abba, Father". (Galatians 3:26; Galatians 4:6). So we should be accustomed to glory, and it is the many sons thus secured who are the personnel of the assembly. As we are in the liberty and joy of sonship, we fit into our place in the assembly. The assembly is the corporate vessel. If we are in the gain of this, we shall move on in unity together, bodywise and house-wise, and thus there will be both response to Christ in the assembly and response to God in worship and praise. We shall be merged in that vessel of which He is the Beloved, "a chaste virgin to Christ" (2 Corinthians 11:2); and we shall thus

function under His headship relative to His Father and our Father and His God and our God.

And so this passage in Hebrews goes on to say, "I will declare thy name to my brethren; in the midst of the assembly will I sing thy praises". The many sons can join in the praise. No one could raise the song but Jesus and the song He raises is a new song; it is a song that could never have been raised, had He remained in the abstract relations of Deity. It is the result of Him becoming flesh and learning obedience in the things that He suffered and going through death and coming forth from death, and entering in, victorious. What a song He sings! And we, as under His direction, are privileged, as the many sons, to join, in our measure, in the song He sings, in the midst of the assembly.

And now I want to speak of this as bearing on the heavenly city, because, as citizens of that city, we shall be for ever in the immediate presence of the glory. It says of the city, "the glory of God has enlightened it, and the lamp thereof is the Lamb". (Revelation 21:23). That is, the Lamb is the lamp of the glory; He is the effulgence of God's glory, it is shining forth in Him. When we see Him, "we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is". (1 John 3:2). Other families will not see Him as we shall. If a royal personage were passing through Newcastle, you might get a glimpse of the person as he went through and you would say, 'I saw the King', and, in that sense, every eye will see Him. It would be another thing to see the king in his palace, to see him face to face in his glory, to have a personal knowledge of and link with the king; that is another matter altogether. And that is how we are to know Jesus. That is just a feeble illustration. We shall see Him as He is and always be in His presence. That is the portion of the inhabitants of the city of God. That city is "the bride, the Lamb's wife". How right that He, the Lamb, should have a wife, that One

who was made perfect through sufferings! He has the bride, His wife, and the personnel are all sons brought to glory.

They dwell in the sunshine of the glory of God shining in that blessed Man, looking on His glory with unveiled face.

What a portion is ours, dear brethren! It says "the city has no need of the sun", He is the sun, His face shines as the sun; and we are citizens of that city and, as having the Spirit, we have the earnest of this now. We are able to look on the glory of the Lord, with unveiled face, and to see the glory of God radiant. How it helps us in the praise of God, as we understand His glory thus! Praise marks the city. "His servants shall serve him". The word "serve" is 'priestly service', they serve as priests; "and they shall see his face; and his name is on their foreheads". That is the mark of bondmanship: "his name is on their foreheads". What other name would you have but His?

And then it goes on to say, "the Lord God shall shine upon them". He shines upon us in Jesus, the glorified Man. And it says, "they shall reign to the ages of ages". They are not only serving as priests, but they are kings. That is God's thought, kings and priests, and that is the dignity of all the inhabitants of the city.

Well now, it says of the city that it was "pure gold, like pure glass". How these thoughts should stir our hearts now as to the assembly, the city of God, "the city of the great king" (Psalm 48:2)! "Glorious things are spoken of thee, O city of God". (Psalm 87:3). Have you ever said glorious things about the assembly? The very thought of the city of old stirred the godly Israelite to deep emotion, and that is how it should be with us. Then, as to its shining, it says, "he ... . shewed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of the heaven from God, having

the glory of God". The glory of God is diffused, as it were, through the city. This involves, for us, transformation, and it is going on now; "looking on the glory of the Lord" we "are transformed according to the same image". Here the transformation is complete and the city comes down, "having the glory of God".

Other families are to learn the glory through us. It is not theirs to behold it face to face. "We shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is".

'There with unwearied gaze Our eyes on Him we'll rest'. He is the lamp of the glory, He lightens the city. But then, the city diffuses the light to other families; diffusing it to the universe, according to the measure in which each family can apprehend it. "Her shining was like a most precious stone, as a crystal-like jasper stone". Think of its purity, its transparency! All this is to bear on us now, that there should be transparency with us, no hidden motives or movements, but everything crystal-like. But then, it says, "as a crystal like jasper stone". It says of the One sitting on the throne in chapter 4, He was "like in appearance to a stone of jasper and a sardius". The city thus is representative of God in her shining. She has the glory of God.

But then, when we come to the wall, it says, she has "a great and high wall". We have to take account of those words. You might think the wall is very small compared with the height of the city; but there is a moral meaning in these things, they are symbolic measurements. In actual fact, the wall is "great and high"; there is no possibility of getting over it. If we apply it to the assembly at the present time, it is greater and higher than anything men have ever seen. You say, 'How forbidding!' Not at all. There is nothing forbidding about the wall. It says, "And the building of its wall was jasper": that is, the wall

refers to the saints as fully representative of God, the One who is on the throne, who is like a jasper and a sardius. It is only forbidding to those who know not God and who obey not the gospel.

To such it is forbidding. And, to bring this down to the present time, are we representing this wall? Is it great and high, so that nothing damaging can intrude into what is precious? And is it of jasper?

The only kind of wall that God recognises is a wall that is expressive of Himself. Therefore, the wall meets every situation. The saints form the wall, as knowing glory, and being transformed by it. Where is the wall, if the saints are not the wall? But the saints are the wall in the measure in which they represent God, so that they react to everything they meet as God reacts. They have "put on the new man" in practice, "which according to God is created in truthful righteousness and holiness". (Ephesians 4:24). The nations are "estranged from the life of God". When they see it expressed in the saints, it repels them, because they are walking "in the vanity of their mind" (Ephesians 4:17, 18). But to a repentant soul, it is attractive. It attracts all that is of God and repels all that is not of God, this great and high wall.

It is "a hundred and forty-four cubits", twelve twelves. We have often been told "twelve" is the love number, and this is twelve twelves, because the great testimony at the moment is that the kindness and love to man of our Saviour God has appeared, and we are to be expressive of God. But God can have nothing to say to those who obey not the gospel. The greatest offence is to offend against the grace of God, to insult the Spirit of grace (Hebrews 10:29). That is why the sin of this dispensation is greater than that of any past dispensation. Not only has evil crept in, and is rampant as in the Jezebel system, but the general sin of the dispensation must be greater than anything past, because what is in expression is the kindness

and love of our Saviour God towards man. If people refuse grace, there is no hope for them. The severest judgment must come on those who reject God in the full outshining of Himself. And the wall conveys all that. Therefore, it is repellent, on the one hand, to those who hate God or disobey Him, but it is attractive to all who seek after God in any measure. Where there is any real fear of God, the wall would attract.

What are we displaying in public testimony? A wall so great and high that all people can see it? Anyone approaching the tabernacle saw the curtains round the court and the hanging at the entrance; what are they seeing today? What they should see is a true representation of God in saints walking in the liberty of sonship. God can be angry; if there is something to cause anger, we can be angry. The Lord looked "round upon them with anger", it says in Mark 3:5; but let us see that we are representing God, and, if there should be something to cause anger in a right sense, let us see that we do not let the flesh in on account of it, and sin. "Be angry, and do not sin; let not the sun set upon your wrath" (Ephesians 4:26).

It is "a man's measure"; that is, it is the expression of God, in so far as that is possible in the creature.

In Jesus, it is full and absolute; He is the effulgence of God's glory; but in the wall you have the expression of God according to man's measure, the creature measure, and, in a way, this is the measure of our responsibility. Man's responsibility at the beginning, the measure of his responsibility, is that he was "God's image and glory"; it says in 1 Corinthians 11:7, "man ... being God's image and glory". And it says in Romans 3:23, "all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God". We have failed in that prime responsibility to represent God. But the Christian, if he is true to himself, is brought back to that on a

higher level than the innocent man ever could be. He is brought back to the idea of the representation of God in his public dealings with men and walk before men. That is the wall of jasper; and, if people are attracted, there are the gates for them to go in, provided they wash their robes.

Then they will begin to see the city. We must not look at these measurements in a material way. One would judge that "great and high" means that you could not see the city, unless you passed the wall through the gates. But there are those, thank God, who are not repelled, they are drawn to the saints. If I speak to some here who came in from outside, as we say, were you not drawn to the saints? I was. There was the wall, seen in a separate people, and yet one was drawn to them. There was something heavenly there. God was expressed in them. Then there were the gates: the local company functioning. Every gate "one pearl" would involve every local company held in unity, every local company marked by the features of Christ. "So also is the Christ", it says in 1 Corinthians 12:12, embracing the whole church on earth, but that is to characterise the local company. Every gate a pearl. "By this shall all know that ye are disciples of mine, if ye have love amongst yourselves". And the level of it is, "love one another; as I have loved you" (John 13:34, 35). That is how the feature of the pearl comes into manifestation.

At the present time we have to have other gates. In the millennial day there will be no need for any but the normal gate, the pearl; but we have to have gates, such as the valley-gate, the dung-gate, and the prison-gate. Assembly administration has to cover many things, because we are in a scene of contrariety; but let us see that the normal gate is there, the pearl. Every gate, one pearl: that is, if we apply it in that way, every local company, one pearl; "and the street of the city pure gold, as transparent glass".

The foundations of the wall are wonderful, "and on them twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb". Think of those twelve men, how they adorn the city! God's thought is that we should be in keeping with the foundation, in keeping with the twelve apostles of the Lamb, marked by the unity and devotedness that marked them, so that, at the present time, there should be some expression of the beauty of the foundation. And you will find in those foundations "the first foundation, jasper". You see again that the expression of God is the primary thing. I wish I knew more about precious stones, so that I could understand these things better; but I can understand "sapphire", the heavenly colour, and I can understand "emerald", which suggests life and vitality, "the sixth, sardius", another stone which speaks of God, and then "the eleventh, jacinth". "Jacinth" may bear on what is judicial, because, in Revelation 9:17, in connection with an evil power, it is linked with fire and brimstone. There is that element in the foundation of the wall which will not tolerate evil.

Now, I am speaking of this with a view to our bringing it morally into the present moment and, if the wall is functioning, what joys we shall know within and what outgoings there will be! For, following this, there is not only what comes in. We want more to come in; it says here, "And they shall bring the glory and the honour of the nations to it". Do you not think that, if we were right and the wall were really what it should be, there would be increase from among the nations? Paul laboured "that the offering up of the nations might be acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit". (Romans 15:16). And then the outgoings! "And he shewed me a river of water of life, bright as crystal, going out of the throne of God and of the Lamb". What outgoings of grace, a river of water of life! And later in the chapter the

word is, "let him take the water of life freely".

One could go on speaking of these things, dear brethren; but I will close, with this last appeal, "Blessed are they that wash their robes, that they may have right to the tree of life, and they that should go in by the gates into the city".