John 1:1 - 37, 49 - 51

G.R.C. It is in mind to look at some chapters in John's gospel in connection with purification and life. We know that his gospel was probably the last book of scripture to be written, when much had come in from which the saints needed purifying. It is also written specially for these last days, when we are surrounded by corruption, and therefore by moral death, even in the sphere of Christian profession where life should be. So that the Holy Spirit presents the Lord and His ministry in this gospel with a view to purification. That is one of the great ends in view. As in all matters he touches, John has what is inward primarily in his mind. It is a question of inward purification. Outward purification must flow, if it is to be acceptable, from inward purification. Paul, of course, would have both in mind, but he stresses outward purification; in 2 Corinthians 6:17 he quotes the injunction "Wherefore come out from the midst of them, and be separated, saith the Lord, and touch not what is unclean", because purification in its outward aspect involves separation, but follows that by saying "Having therefore these promises, beloved, let us purify ourselves from every pollution of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in God's fear", 2 Corinthians 7:1. Undoubtedly in that injunction he is including, not only the outward purification which necessitates separation, but what is inward. Similarly, in 2 Timothy 2:21 he speaks of purification and separation, "If therefore one shall have purified himself from these", (that is from vessels to dishonour) "in separating himself from them, he shall be a vessel to

honour, sanctified, serviceable to the Master". We cannot think of Paul having anything in mind other than that those who separate themselves do it as a result of what is inward. We have to take warning in that respect, from the remnant who returned from Babylon. They left Babylon and returned to the truth of the house and of the city, but, while there were those who maintained an outward separation, the inward thing lapsed. And so the bitterest enemies of the Lord in this gospel were those who were maintaining an outward separation -- the Pharisees -- but their inward parts were full of plunder and wickedness. We have to face this matter, because we have come out; we are positionally in purification through separation; but then we have to face the question as to whether our purification has begun from within, especially those of us who have been brought up in the meeting. If things are not worked out within, our separation becomes something which is very obnoxious, like the unclean beasts with the cloven hoof who did not chew the cud; there was nothing inward. So I think we can see the great importance, from this standpoint, of the gospel of John, because, if we take heed to it, we shall become purified persons inwardly, and a person purified inwardly could not be other than so outwardly; but the great thing is to get the inward matter right.

So the gospel commences with this great presentation of the Person of Christ, for two reasons; first that we should be purified from every Philistine intrusion and speculation about His Person, and from every wrong thought of God; and secondly, the presentation is so great that if we really apprehend it, Christ will eclipse all others for us and we shall be purified as to our Object and motive. The first chapter thus stands out as very important in that respect, bringing in a most purifying presentation of the Person of Christ. Later in the chapter we get the

marvellous scope of His work, taking away the sin of the world, and then the present aspect of His work, baptising with the Holy Spirit. At the close we see persons coming to Him, the gathering Centre, and His glories in dominion engage the heart. So this is a wonderful chapter.

We might consider first the glory of His Person, and the glory of His Person, in this gospel, links with "The Name" of the Old Testament. There are names and titles in the Old Testament, but the name of the only true God was "I am that I am". The creature's answer to that is "Jah", the One who is, and in revelation, "Jehovah"; but those three cognate words, "I am", "Jah", and "Jehovah", constituted the name of God as disclosed in the Old Testament, and this gospel links on with that. The first gospel, Matthew, brings in the greatest of titles, "El", "Emmanuel ... 'God with us' ", Matthew 1:23, and closes by telling us who that God is, what His name is as known now, "the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit", Matthew 28:19. But this gospel does not go back to a title in that sense, nor, in the first three verses, to Christ as the subject of prophecy; it goes back to the fact that the Person who came is the "I AM".

J.Hr. Does it help to see that this Person who is so glorious was found in the midst of all the corruption that is in the world, and yet maintained every feature that was right in relation to God?

G.R.C. Is not that involved in the word "In him was life, and the life was the light of men". J.N.D. says:

"Thy path of true perfection
Was light on all around".

P.H.H. Is your word about the "I am" emphasised in chapter 8, where the Lord says, "unless ye shall believe that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins", verse 24, and then in verse 28, "When ye shall have lifted up the Son of man, then ye shall know that I am [he], and

that I do nothing of myself, but as the Father has taught me I speak these things". Is it striking that He brings out the name in speaking to the Jews thus?

G.R.C. Yes, and He immediately brings out the perfection of His dependent manhood. One such as He, who is "I am", could yet say that "the Father has taught me".

P.H.H. I was wondering about that very thing, His dependent manhood, in the very same verse as He mentions His own name, as God.

G.R.C. Scripture seems to delight to put His deity and manhood together. They are so often put in juxtaposition, "When ye shall have lifted up the Son of man, then ye shall know that I am", but then He goes on "I do nothing of myself, but as the Father has taught me I speak these things".

P.L. The expression "In him was life", chapter 1: 4, bears of course on His deity; but in chapter 5 He speaks of the Father having given Him to have life in Himself. Would that bear on His perfect dependence, ever preserved as the Sent One, in the midst of corruption and death?

G.R.C. Indeed it would.

P.B. You spoke earlier of purification and life. This begins with life. Could you say how it bears on your remark?

G.R.C. "In him was life". We cannot limit that expression. It seems a kind of absolute statement which no doubt involves the truth of His Person. But then, it was what was manifested here; such an One here manifested life in perfection in manhood. "That eternal life", John says in the epistle, "which was with the Father, and has been manifested to us", 1 John 1:2. "And the life was the light of men". All the springs of His life were in God. He did nothing but what He saw the Father doing, He did not speak except words given to Him by the Father. There was

manifest here on earth a Man whose springs were all in God, and were therefore absolutely pure, He was altogether what He said; He did not seek His own glory, but the glory of the One who sent Him. Life was seen in perfection in Him. As regards ourselves, apart from purification there cannot be life in relation to God. Life in the proper sense of the word cannot subsist apart from purification. I am referring to us now. In Christ life was manifest in all its purity, and it was light on all around, it was the light of men.

A.J.G. Does that mean that in thus manifesting that life, God had in mind that men should be brought into it?

G.R.C. That is what I was thinking. The life of Jesus here, while it exposed man, was a manifestation that it was God's mind for men to be in a life like that, in so far as the creature can be. And is not that where purification from our point of view becomes essential?

A.J.G. Yes, I am sure it is.

E.J.H. In chapter 20: 31, you get the words "that ye may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing ye might have life in his name".

G.R.C. That is the great objective. Believing "that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God" is really believing on Him as the theme of prophetic testimony. That is what comes in later in chapter 1.

G.R.D. Does the darkness not apprehending the light mean that there is some moral cause for that, hence the need of purification to follow if the light is to be apprehended?

G.R.C. Yes. And I suppose we have to take account of the fact recorded in Genesis 1 that darkness existed before man. The darkness is spoken of here, it is an awful thing, "the darkness apprehended it not". No doubt it is physical darkness that is actually referred to in Genesis 1, but nevertheless, one would think that it is to bring home to us the spiritual darkness, "darkness was on the face of the deep".

Darkness had come into the universe before man was made. But man having been created, and set up in innocence, the darkness engulfed man, as I would understand.

P.L. Would the incapacity of man to respond, bear on the moral darkness that marks him according to verse 5, and then the religious darkness in the end of verse 26, "In the midst of you stands, whom ye do not know", and then the natural darkness of one outwardly related to the Lord, "I knew him not", verse 31?

G.R.C. That is very helpful. I think we need to take account of those features of darkness, influences which will hold us in the darkness if we allow them, moral darkness, religious darkness, and the darkness of nature.

F.H. In Matthew it says Jesus "went and dwelt at Capernaum", and "the people sitting in darkness has seen a great light", chapter 4: 13 - 16. Has that any bearing on this -- Light manifested?

G.R.C. It has. It speaks there of light springing up. But there is the darkness itself, "the darkness" is an awful thing, but the light has now come. "And the light appears in darkness, and the darkness apprehended it not". But the light had come for men. Angelic beings are involved in the darkness, there are those called "the lords of this darkness", but the light was not for them.

--.I. "Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God", Matthew 5:8.

J.O.T.D. Would there be some reason for the use of the present tense in verse 5, "And the light appears in darkness"? Has that some reference to what has come out in continuity, not only in Christ in the days of blood and flesh, but what has continued now in the Spirit's day?

G.R.C. It may be so. But it is for men; God has in mind extricating men; not angels but men; men who have become engulfed in the darkness. So that this

refers to Jesus in manhood, "the life was the light of men", but then, if men were to apprehend it, purification was essential.

L.A.C. Is there a link in Ezekiel's prophecy with what we have here? The question is asked in chapter 8: 12 "Hast thou seen, son of man, what the elders of the house of Israel do in the dark", and in chapter 43: 2 it says "And behold, the glory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east; and his voice was like the voice of many waters; and the earth was lit up with his glory".

I wondered whether what we have here is the glory of the God of Israel coming in.

G.R.C. Quite so. And I think before we proceed farther we ought to take account of the first three verses, because they are a very emphatic assertion by the Spirit of God that Jesus is "I am". We have His own assertion of it in chapter 8: 58, but the Spirit's assertion that Jesus is "I am" is in the first three verses of the gospel. It says "In the beginning was the Word"; that is, He had no beginning, in the beginning He was; "and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God". There is certain light in that as to the Godhead, that is, the distinction of the Persons, "He was in the beginning with God". But then it says "All things received being through him, and without him not one thing received being which has received being". The idea of the name "I am" is that God alone is self-existent, He is the great self-existent One, and all other existences are derived; and that is what is predicated of Christ here. He ever was, He never began to be, but all things began to be (that is the literal word here) through him. That is the idea of the "I am". He alone has existence in Himself. Every other existence, everything else, began to be, and began to be through Him. So that Jesus is presented in His glory, as "I am that I am".

A.T.D. Would the thought of "the Word" go as far as God expressed, the unfolding of God?

G.R.C. I think it does. It involves the expression of all that is in God's mind. The word 'Logos' involves what is in the mind. The whole mind of God is in expression in Jesus.

A.H.G. Did you say that the apprehension of Jesus in this way was the real beginning of inward purification?

G.R.C. Yes. For one thing it purifies our minds from all the speculations of the natural mind as to Jesus; all such speculations come to an end if we accept these first three verses, that Jesus is "I am" Some Ephesians were being led away by speculations, according to 1 Timothy 1:4 -- interminable genealogies. But this goes back beyond even the line of prophetic testimony. Prophetic testimony declares that the coming One would be the Christ, the Son of God. Psalm 2. It was this prophetic testimony that Nathanael accepted. But verses 1 - 3 present to us the greatness of the Person who came to fulfil all prophetic testimony.

P.L. So that you have self-existence -- "In the beginning was the Word"; and "the Word was with God" -- His own eternal personality in the Godhead; and "the Word was God" -- absolute Deity. It excludes everything that could emanate from man.

J.H. The reception inwardly of the glory of this Person, the "I am", would result in the exclusion of every opposing element inwardly; the "I am" cherished in our affections.

--.I. Did not the apostle Paul bring this before the Colossians to save them from being carried away?

G.R.C. He brings a very powerful testimony to the deity of Christ before the Colossians. And yet, in a way, this presentation by John is unique, as setting out, without any question, that Jesus is "I am", the great self-existent One, through whom everything began to

be. That is the One we are in the presence of; and it would lead to prostration before Him. Then in verse 14 it says "The Word became flesh", that is, it is viewed as His own action, "the Word became [or began to be] flesh".

A.P.B. I would like to ask as to the only two things that God is said to be -- light, and love -- whether there is a sense in which we have to understand the purity of God as light before we can really enter fully into the blessedness of His love?

G.R.C. I think that is right. So that light is the thing that first comes.

A.P.B. Yes. And the light has to do with purity, has it not?

G.R.C. It has. Light makes everything manifest.

P.H.H. Is it remarkable that the Person of Christ appears quite extensively in the opening verses, before there is anything said about ministry? I am connecting the ministry with John, "There was a man sent from God", and it says of him in verse 8, "He was not the light, but that he might witness concerning the light". Does that put in right perspective for us, first the Person of Christ, and then any ministry, even the most powerful, about Him subsequently?

G.R.C. I thought that. Does not John come before us in this chapter as what we might call a purified servant? The glory of Christ was so filling his vision. When Jews from Jerusalem, and priests and Levites came, and said, "Thou, who art thou", he had an opportunity to eulogise himself, but "he acknowledged and denied not, and acknowledged" -- it is very strong language -- "I am not the Christ. And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he says, I am not. Art thou the prophet? And he answered, No. They said therefore to him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to those who sent us. What sayest thou of thyself? He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness". He is only a

voice to draw attention to the glorious Person who was standing in their midst, and they knew Him not. And then further he says, "the thong of whose sandal I am not worthy to unloose". Surely that is the language of a true servant. He was not worthy even to be a slave, "the thong of whose sandal I am not worthy to unloose".

P.H.H. I was thinking of that and wondering whether as a practical experience it would not help us to get things in right order in these days; thinking both of the privileged persons whom we know, who have served us, and also of Christendom being carried away by false voices, and persuasive speech; whereas the Person and the theme to hold us is the Word.

P.L. So that John the baptist's credentials as a servant, in purification, in the light, are established against the pretensions of the Pharisees; and then he is active contemplatively and ministerially in love in his appreciation of this glorious Person. Is that the order?

G.R.C. I thought so. It says that these persons were sent from among the Pharisees, they were sent from those who were in an outward position of separation, but there was no inward purification.

E.J.H. Whereas "a man sent from God" would be a purified vessel to bear testimony to such a glorious Person, in contrast to those who were sent from the Pharisees.

G.R.C. Quite so. "A man sent from God" would have an appreciation of this glorious Person. For us it would mean that we frequent the holiest, we are sent from God in that sense; we are often in His presence.

A.H.G. Would this purification then involve the removal of ourselves from our sight?

G.R.C. I think that is a great point in purification, the removal of ourselves from our own sight. And so John says, I am a voice. He does not even claim to be a prophet, he says "I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the path of the Lord", he is

directing to the Lord, "as said Esaias the prophet". And Esaias was another man who knew how to keep himself out of sight; like the Seraphim, who covered their faces and their feet, in the presence of the glory.

P.B. "These things said Esaias because he saw his glory", John 12:41.

J.A.P. Is the light purely in relation to men, "the life was the light of men"?

G.R.C. That is how I understand it. It is not the light of angels, nor even of Israel only; but "the life was the light of men". So that the whole setting of this is outside of any restrictions. It is not going back to the promises to Israel, it does not even begin with any reference to what happened in the garden of Eden; it goes back to "In the beginning was the Word", introducing us to the Person who came. So that we must have our minds purified from every human speculation about Him.

P.L. And is the final issue of this, the tabernacle of God being with men, that order of being?

G.R.C. It is.

Ques. Would this voice draw attention to "the Word"?

G.R.C. The great thing is that we should take account of the Word, "the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us". And so you get the idea there of a purified circle, "the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us"; the previous verse indicates who the 'us' were -- "but to as many as received him, to them gave he the right to be the children of God, to those that believe on his name; who have been born, not of blood, nor of flesh's will, nor of man's will, but of God". That is a very sweeping verse, it cuts out everything that brings in impurity. They "have been born not of blood, nor of flesh's will, nor of man's will, but of God".

R.C. Have we therefore the great thought of purity, not only in regard to the Person Himself, the

Word; but now in regard to those who are the subject of the work of God?

G.R.C. I thought so. This verse does not give us the moral working out of it in exercise of soul; but it presents it from the Divine side. They receive Him, and therefore are given the right to be the children of God, but they have been born, not of blood, nor of flesh's will, nor of man's will, but of God; and it is in a circle like that the Word dwells. "The Word became flesh, and dwelt among us", so that we have a circle where He is appreciated as the Word.

A.P.B. Is that the "wholly right seed", the pure seed, in contrast to the profession? Is not that what we need in ourselves?

G.R.C. Quite so. So that we should be exercised to be true to our birth, and to judge everything inconsistent with our birth.

A.T.B. Would you say a word as to "There was a man sent from God, his name John". His birth was contrary to the ordinary course of nature, I suppose, that is referred to; and yet those you are speaking of are of a greater order than John, are they not?

G.R.C. He had a remarkable birth, and he was filled with the Holy Spirit from the womb; and it says here "he was sent from God", freed from other influences, "sent from God"; but then as you say, those who are born of God, according to verse 13, have a greater place that John the baptist.

P.H.H. What is involved in the expression in verse 12, "but to as many as received him"? Am I right in thinking that it involves receiving the One in whom the whole declaration of God is?

G.R.C. I would think that. Then it says "those that believe on his name". That would bring us to this point of the declaration of God. We have the greatness of the Person of Christ, and then His greatness as the Declarer of God, He shares with no one, in that.

P.H.H. I was thinking that sometimes, "as many as received him" might be taken up in a gospel setting, as receiving Him as Saviour, on the line of relief, forgiveness of sins; blessed as that is, this is greater, is it not?

G.R.C. And is it not a fact, specially at the end of the dispensation, that for persons to come into blessing, it involves receiving Him in the light of the greatness of His Person? I was thinking of your remarks as to John 8, He said to the Pharisees, "unless ye shall believe that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins". Is not that a special feature of these days, that for persons to come into the blessing that is available at the close, it is essential that they should receive the Lord as appreciating the greatness of His Person as "I am"? It is really the test of every one.

L.G.B. Do we need to be maintained in the spirit of receptiveness?

G.R.C. We do. In the early days of the dispensation, before John wrote, numbers of heresies had come in, speculations as to the Person of Christ; and they have been revived in the last hundred and twenty years. With the revival of the truth, Satan has revived the heresies under modern names; and the feature common to them is this, that they deny that Jesus is "I am". If you face them with the deity of Christ, they are exposed. So that it is a very testing question at the present time, as to all that is around us, as to whether persons believe that Jesus is "I am". Have they received Him according to this setting forth of His Person, in the gospel of John? That is the test to people today. If they receive Him like that, it means that their minds, to begin with, are purified from all Philistine ideas. They have a purified start.

A.W.G.T. Even in the creed that is used very widely in the Christian profession, Christ is said to have been begotten in the past eternity. Is that not inimical to what you are saying as to His being "I am"?

G.R.C. It is. And then, because He is "I am", He is competent in manhood to declare God. It gives Him, of course, competency for everything. If He comes for instance, on the line of prophecy, He comes as Son of God, King of Israel, Son of man; but His competency to fill out every position of which there is a prophetic testimony is based on who He is. But then the greatest thing, I suppose, of all, is that He has declared God. And so, if we look at verse 18 the first phrase, "No one has seen God at any time" would link back with verse 1, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God".

D.B. Is it significant that in chapter 8 where we have the woman taken in adultery, and the scribes and the Pharisees, it is to the latter that the Lord says "I am the light of the world; he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life".?

G.R.C. I think it is striking, because, as we were saying, the Pharisees were those in outward separation, but inwardly they were corrupt, and therefore in darkness, walking in darkness. But this verse, "No one has seen God at any time" seems to be an absolute statement; I mean, it would refer even to the Lord Himself, as in deity. If we take verse 1 by itself, the Word was there with God, and the Word was God; but no one has seen God at any time.

A.J.G. You mean that He Himself had never been seen until He became man.

G.R.C. And as to Deity, He never will be seen. Is that right?

A.J.G. "No one knows the Son" it says in Matthew 11:27.

G.R.C. It is the inscrutability of Deity as such. We have to cherish the Deity of Christ in our souls, and that He is included in the expression in 1 Timothy 6:16, "dwelling in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen, nor is able to see". As to the glory of His Person, He is a Person of the Godhead.

J.Hr. Would you clarify for us, please, an expression that is current among us, as to the Persons of the Godhead, that 'They have Their part in Deity'.

G.R.C. We get expressions amongst us which need to be tested by scripture. We tend to get dogmas, certain phrases which sound well when you first hear them, and tend to carry a force with us as though they were scripture. But I think we have continually to go back to scripture to test expressions that are current.

E.J.H. And if we think according to scripture we shall speak according to scripture.

G.R.C. Yes. But then it goes on to say here, in the verse we are on, verse 18, "the only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him]". So that we have the glory of Christ's Person, and then the glory that belongs to Him as the One who has declared God. He has become flesh, and He is now known as the only-begotten Son who is in the bosom of the Father, and, as in that place, the place of the sweetest affections, He has become the Declarer of God.

P.H.H. That is not in His Deity, is it? That is in His manhood. While we could say that His Person never changes, yet the condition which He has taken up is something new.

G.R.C. Quite so. He is unchanging in His Person.

P.H.H. What would you say about 1 Timothy 3:16 "God has been manifested in flesh, has been justified in the Spirit, has appeared to angels", or "has been seen of angels"? I am linking on with what this word says, "No one has seen God at any time", and in Timothy it says "God has appeared to angels", or "has been seen of angels". Does that also point to His manhood, God has been manifested in flesh?

G.R.C. Quite so. God has been manifested, it is not only that Christ Himself is God, but He manifested the nature and character of God.

C.W.O'L.M. Would you say a word please in this connection as to the statement in Matthew 5:8, "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God"?

G.R.C. I think we have to take account of abstract Deity. That is what I think is meant by, "No one has seen God at any time". In the abstract conditions and relations of Deity, He is beyond the apprehension of the creature, as Paul says, "dwelling in unapproachable light", 1 Timothy 6:16. We know it is light, but it is unapproachable. But then, "the only-begotten Son who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him]", brings in what we call the economy.

A.J.G. And he is "image of the invisible God", Colossians 1:15.

A.P.B. Is it in your mind that we need to let this full light really penetrate into our hearts, because, if there is darkness still there, it is through lack of the full apprehension of the declaration of God as made known in this Person who is the "I am"?

G.R.C. That is just what I have in mind. And we need to cherish Him in our affections as the One who has declared Him. No one else was competent. No one but One who is Himself "I am" was competent to declare God. He has declared Him.

Ques. And is the declaration just what God has been pleased to let creatures know?

G.R.C. It includes that God is known in His nature and character. What I mean by that is, God coming out as He has done in this economy of grace, means that we know God in nature and character as He always was and as He always will be. So that we can speak of what is "from eternity" as well as "to eternity". His nature, that is love, and His character, are now in radiant display in Jesus. It is not that God has changed in His character. It is what He always was and always will be; He is the unchanging God. The title "the Same" emphasises that. But then, what He is, in His nature and character, was not known;

certain light as to it was given in Old Testament times, but now, Jesus, the "I am", has come into this relation, the only-begotten Son in the bosom of the Father, and there is a full display of what God is in His nature and His character.

P.L. So that God has become His own testimony.

G.R.C. Yes. So that when we say that we are limited to the economy for our knowledge of God (and it is in the economy that God is fully known) it does not mean that we cannot carry back what we learn of Him thus, in the sense of what He is in His nature.

A.J.G. It is because He is what He is, and always has been, that He has devised the economy so that He might make it known to man.

G.R.C. That is what I thought.

--.G. Is what you say supported by the other reference to "No one has seen God at any time" in 1 John 4:12? John links it with love, and the indwelling of the Spirit.

G.R.C. It goes on to say, "If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us". So that God in His nature is to shine out in the saints.

J.W.S. Job says "but now mine eye seeth thee" chapter 42: 5.

G.R.C. Scripture makes it quite clear that we do see God in the sense in which you are speaking. The pure in heart see God. But it is God in the way He has manifested Himself. We see God expressed in a Man, the Son. All that God is, all that can be known of God, is shining out in a Man; the nature and character of God is shining in the face of Jesus. He has been into death, and is now glorified that we might be brought unto the presence of that radiant outshining of God, and be at home in it.

W.B.H. Is your point that as that is apprehended by us, and appreciated by us, it would promote this matter of purification.

G.R.C. It would, particularly as giving Christ the

place that He should have before our vision; who He is in His Person, and what He has done in declaring God. He has manifested God in His nature and character, and not only so but He has brought out all that can be known of the Father, and of Himself, the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, and of the activities and the relationships which are proper to this great economy. There is the full declaration.

A.J.G. Would you say that He has also brought in, and presents in Himself, the perfect answer to it in Man? Otherwise, the light of God without a perfect answer to it would leave us disappointed, so to speak, and incomplete.

G.R.C. Is it not wonderful that there is a full answer in the only-begotten Son who is in the bosom of the Father?

J.O.T.D. Does this statement "full of grace and truth" imply that there is to be also an adequate answer in the saints, in whom, through this service and the ministration of grace and truth, the darkness has been dispelled?

G.R.C. If we apprehend Jesus in this way, I think it will bring us into line with John the baptist. We shall count it a privilege just to be a voice to draw attention to Him; and we shall regard ourselves as unworthy even to unloose the thong of His sandals.

A.P.A. Will you say a word as to the expression "only-begotten"?

G.R.C. Does it not give Him His unique place?

A.P.A. Yes. I was thinking of the word "begotten".

G.R.C. It links with Psalm 2:7, "Thou art my Son; I this day have begotten thee". But "the only-begotten" brings in a peculiarly affectionate touch.

J.Hgs. Does the reference to contemplation indicate that it is a matter which is really learned in the presence of God?

G.R.C. Contemplation is an important word; we

need more time in the presence of God to contemplate this glorious Person in whom God is shining forth.

A.J.G. It is a striking thing that John uses it in the gospel which presents Him as the Word in whom God is fully presented to us, but He also uses it in the epistle which presents Him as the word of life, in whom there is the perfect answer to the outshining of God; as though contemplation is to mark us in our appreciation of Christ in both lights.

L.L. John the baptist contemplated Jesus and seemed to get a fresh impression the next day -- "On the morrow", as if the contemplation of the glory of the Person would give us something to consider every day.

G.R.C. Quite so. The first thing he says in verse 29 is "Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world". This brings out the scope of his work and service, or one of the great features of it. He has laid the foundation in His sacrifice, but, He is about to take away the sin of the world publicly. It is a wonderful thing to contemplate One who can do that, and who, at all cost to Himself, has laid the foundation for it in sacrifice.

P.L. And on His way to take sin out of the world, would He take sin out of our hearts?

G.R.C. He would. He baptises with the Holy Spirit. He is the One who takes away the sin of the world -- not the sins of the world -- it is not a question here of people being freed from their sins, but the sin of the world. He is going to remove from the world the whole principle which alienates the world from God.

A.P.B. Is that unbelief?

G.R.C. It is unbelief, but it is really man as his own centre. The Lord Jesus is going to take away the idea of man being the centre, and make God the Centre.

A.P.B. Is not that what we ourselves need so very much, in order to be purified?

G.R.C. That is just what I think. He is going to take away the sin of the world, but at the present time, it is a question of taking away that principle in us, so that sin should not dominate us. Sin is self-centredness, and we can be self-centred, as we know, even in service. The presentation of Christ in the greatness of His own Person, and as the Declarer of God -- bringing God in, the full outshining of God, the full light of the economy -- is to make God the Centre for us. That is real purification, when God becomes the Centre of the heart. Then the principle of sin is overthrown.

G.W.B. In the epistle of John it says the darkness is passing. Is that what is going on in the saints now?

G.R.C. And so John says here, after referring to how he knew the Lord, "he it is who baptises with the Holy Spirit". The full taking away of the sin of the world is future, but He is baptising with the Holy Spirit, and that is one of the greatest conceivable things, because it is through the baptising of the Holy Spirit that the greatest vessel that Divine purpose has conceived has been brought into existence. Baptising with the Holy Spirit relates to the church period. Thus we have presented a Person, coming from His place in Deity into manhood, without specific reference to Israel, or to promises, but coming forth and declaring God, bringing the full light of God to man; but first of all with a view to securing the body, that which was the subject of eternal purpose. And so, while the scope of His service is to the world (not simply to Israel, as on the line of promise), yet as coming forth from eternity, His first concern, if one might use that expression, is to secure that vessel which is the subject of eternal purpose. "He it is who baptises with the Holy Spirit". So, while the word assembly is not mentioned in John, the assembly

is really the first thing. It is ever first with God.

A.J.G. So that there is a full answer to God as thus declared in a creature vessel. Not simply a perfect answer in Christ, but a perfect answer in His body.

G.R.C. "The assembly in Christ Jesus".

P.L. So that Colossians 1:18 brings Him in, "And he is the head of the body, the assembly", and then we have "by him to reconcile all things to itself" verse 20. Is that everything gathered up in response; but the assembly introduced as the choice vessel of present Divine operations?

G.R.C. Very good.

G.R.D. Would you say something about the title "Lamb of God"? How far would that include the thought of what is sacrificial?

G.R.C. It stresses what is sacrificial. Apart from His sacrificial work, no persons would be retained. If the sin of the world were taken away without His sacrificial work, sinners would go with it, and there would be no "habitable world which is to come, of which we speak".

Ques. So that the fire must first come upon the burnt-offering which God provides, and that should touch our hearts.

G.R.C. The sacrifice of Christ is the great basis, not only for the world to come, but for the new heavens and the new earth.

P.H.H. Have we got the new world, so to speak, now, in the baptising with the Holy Spirit? It says, "the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world", but does the baptising of the Holy Spirit, so to speak, bring in a new world for us now, where the saints are what Paul would call the "one body"?

G.R.C. So that what is going on at the present time is the greatest of matters. Following this we see how all are drawn to Christ; John's ministry draws to Christ, He becomes the Centre. You can thus see

purification working out in individuals who are drawn to Christ, and in that connection we have His glory shining in connection with His dominion, things that were foretold in prophecy, that He is the Christ, the Son of God. This glorious Person has come in to fulfil all that was foretold.

P.L. But the greater things follow, and "henceforth" would be now, would it not, with us? It was offered to Nathanael by the Lord.

G.R.C. Tell us how it works out now.

P.L. Christ apprehended as the Sun and Centre of the universe of bliss.

PURIFICATION AND LIFE (2)

John 2:1 - 25

G.R.C. We are engaged with the subject of purification, and we were noticing that John deals with inward matters, and that true purification begins within. If purification marks us within, outward purification, in the way of separation from everything that is not of God, will be a very simple matter; and our separation will be real, not a pharisaical one; it will be a real separation to God. So that while separate, we shall be true witnesses. Perhaps many of us can look back over our history and feel how exceedingly poor we have been as witnesses to Christ, even though we have been in an outward path of separation; and if we have failed in our witness it is because of inward purification. We have been retaining something of self, the principle of self-centredness has not been completely eradicated; and therefore the glory has failed to shine through. It is a sad thing for oneself to look back over one's life from that angle. So that in bringing this subject forward one would desire for oneself, as well as for the brethren, that in the little time we have left here, we might really be purified vessels. I believe that is the aim of this day of recovery, purified vessels. And every such vessel is great, a great vessel in the mind of God, like the great fishes in the end of this gospel. Not that such a one is great in his own eyes, it is just the reverse: in his own eyes such an one is not fit even to be a slave of Christ, Christ is so great; but though we are not really worthy to be slaves, yet in the greatness of His grace He permits us to be, as in the sphere of testimony. We are brought into intimate

relationships, in infinite grace, but in the sphere of the testimony the great thing is to comport ourselves as those who are His slaves, and yet we are not even worthy to be that. So that we become witnesses to this glorious Person. If His glory filled our souls, He would be on our lips at every opportunity. How we have failed in that! He was on John the baptist's lips at every opportunity and thus how effective his testimony was. When he was not talking to anyone but himself he says "Behold the Lamb of God". His heart was prostrated as he considered the greatness of the Person walking there. And that affected others, but it did not draw them to John. If we are purified persons we shall not draw people to ourselves, we shall draw people to Christ, direct people to Christ. And so the first chapter of John really brings out the great principle of purification; that is, that instead of being self-centred, we become Christ-centred. Christ, and God in Christ, becomes the Centre, the Object, the Motive; the whole man is thus affected. Therefore this great presentation of Christ in chapter 1, as to who He is, the "I am"; as to what He is in manhood, the Word, the full expression of the mind of God; as to what He is as the Declarer of God, whom no one has seen at any time, but He has declared Him. So that God is known in the fullest way in which the creature could possibly know Him, but Jesus is the Declarer, no one else. We do not go to apostolic doctrine for the declaration of God. Jesus is the Declarer of God. And then John sets out His operations, how vast; the One who takes away the sin of the world! Who else could do it? And He has sacrificed Himself in the most absolute sense in order to lay the moral basis to put things right in the world; to take man away from himself as the centre, and bring God in as the Centre. He has laid the moral foundation in His death. Then there is what He is doing now, baptising with the Spirit, forming the body, the vessel that is

the subject of eternal purpose and counsel. All this is so great; not, in a specific way, the subject of prophetic testimony, but One coming out of eternity, as it were, and bringing all this with Him. Then you get the idea of prophetic testimony, John bearing witness that He is the Son of God. That means that He is the Anointed. Psalm 2 shows that when the One they were expecting, God's Anointed, should come, what would mark Him out would be that He would be the Son of God. So that the great centre of prophetic testimony is that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, or as Paul would present it, that Jesus is the Son of God, the Christ. Paul's ministry is in the reverse order. He is the subject of prophetic testimony. We have spoken of other glories, but there is something that peculiarly draws the heart out to Christ, as we see Him as the fulfilment of prophetic testimony. He has come at last, the One who fulfils all prophetic testimony. The Son of God has come, and the Son of God is the Anointed of God; He is the One that God can trust. But then Nathanael has to learn that the anointing is not limited to "King of Israel" but, as "the Christ", He takes up all that is His as Son of Man. The title "the Christ" is no longer limited to Israel, but it takes in heaven and earth, the whole dominion of the Son of man. So that the glories of chapter 1 are exquisite, they are surpassing, and are calculated to deliver us completely from self as a centre; that Christ, and God in Him, might become our Centre, our Object, our Motive.

Now in chapter 2, we have His own activities in two spheres. When it comes to the practical working out of purification, there is much to be done, and the Lord commences in chapter 2 what needs to be done, first in the sphere of natural affections, and then in the religious sphere. It is remarkable that in this most spiritual gospel He should manifest forth His glory, and begin His signs, in dealing with the sphere of

natural affections, reminding us of Ephesians where detailed directions as to natural relations are brought in on the highest level. We were speaking of the darkness this afternoon as including the darkness of nature and the darkness of religion, and they are touched here. Satan has a foothold in both, and you find both running on in this gospel. For instance, chapter 5 is the darkness of religion, where they seek to kill the Lord because He violated the sabbath, and called God His own Father, making Himself equal with God. It is the darkness, the murderous hate of men who feel that they are being outshone; they are not prepared for purification. We have all been outshone; the point is, are we prepared for it, religiously? They were being outshone, and they would kill the One who was thus taking away from them all their vaunted glory. But then in chapter 6 you have the natural setting, and it is just as dark, only a different form of darkness. It is the 'work-a-day' setting, the setting of ordinary everyday work and relationships (that is Galilee). The working population were glad to be fed, and they wanted to make the Lord king; there was no religious prejudice. But then they were overcome by natural prejudice; they said "Is not this Jesus the son of Joseph?" verse 42, and at the end of the chapter there were only twelve walking with Him, so that He says "Will ye also go away?" verse 67. We have to see how darkness is entrenched, both in the sphere of nature, and in the sphere of religion. If we have got a 'brethren's religion', darkness will be there. But then the Lord is operating so that natural relations, and the setting up of homes, might stand related to the testimony, on the basis of purification.

P.L. Is the Spirit brought in in chapter 4, in relation to distorted affections naturally, and religious darkness, both in the woman?

G.R.C. I think so. In chapter 4 we really see how

necessary the Spirit is in us, in connection with purification.

M.H.T. And as purified, the woman in that chapter becomes a worshipper, and secondly, a witness.

G.R.C. That chapter shows the need of the Spirit as living water in connection with purification. But in the first instance the Lord is attending a marriage, and, according to verses 1 and 2, He is there as by no means the centre of the occasion in the minds of those present. It says "on the third day a marriage took place in Cana of Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there", as though that was the important thing; it may be she was regarded as the principal guest. And then it says "and Jesus also and his disciples, were invited to the marriage", as though that was somewhat incidental.

P.B. Is the thought in our minds that what Jesus has brought will contribute to us? and that that is not really the right way to look at things?

G.R.C. Yes. If we think of the glory of the Person as set out in chapter 1, what place can He have but the Centre of every occasion? If He is there, then the scene must be filled with His glory, and we should make way for it.

E.J.H. Would you say that two of the best things in the natural realm are here, a marriage and a mother; and the Lord waits until He is given the first place in that scene, and when He is given the first place, the whole matter changes?

G.R.C. Yes. Wine being deficient, the mother of Jesus speaks, and speaks to Him. She says, "They have no wine", as though He would add to the occasion, not as the centre, but just to make up the deficiency. But "Jesus says to her, What have I to do with thee, woman? mine hour has not yet come". That is to say, He would rebuke the natural, and put it in its place.

P.H.H. Does that open up the importance of the

hour, and the way that John speaks of it? The Lord says here, "mine hour", and in chapter 13 it says "his hour ... that he should depart ... to the Father". I wondered whether it was in line with your thought about the Lord becoming the Centre, and controlling and dictating the operations, whether in this sphere of natural affections, or whether in spiritual movements, like John 13:1, "his hour had come that he should depart out of this world to the Father".

G.R.C. Are you meaning that in this passage He was not in any way governed, as to the time of His intervention, by nature; He would wait for the proper time?

P.H.H. Yes. J.N.D. says in one of the notes, that in John the hour is a point of time characterised by one thing. Whether in one setting, or in another setting, "mine hour" must be very important.

G.R.C. Yes, the time when He is going to move. We have to wait for that, do we not?

L.A.C. Would verse 12 indicate that the adjustment has been accepted, where He is put before His mother? And would it be akin to what comes in in Jacob's history, where he puts Joseph before Rachel, in Genesis 33?

G.R.C. Much adjustment had taken place, "He descended to Capernaum, he and his mother and his brethren and his disciples". Nevertheless, things were not yet fully on spiritual lines; it says "there they abode not many days". The Lord may bear with a position like that. He has the first place, and then His mother and His brethren, and then His disciples; but that is not finality, they do not abide there long. Abiding is a great point in John. The point is, Where is the Lord going to abide? Where the Lord abides, in a final sense, is not in the natural at all. He recognises the natural, and would use it relative to the testimony; but it is not where He abides in a final sense. "The Word became flesh, and dwelt among

us", that is the children of God, those who were born of God; their birth being right outside of nature, and then chapter 1: 38, "Rabbi ... where abidest thou? He says to them, Come and see. They went therefore, and saw where he abode". It is a great point to know where the Lord abides in a permanent sense.

L.A.C. That is very helpful. Would that include, too, the suggestion in what John refers to as to unloosing His sandals? I wondered whether there would be any thought of His sandals being finally unloosed, and His coming to rest in the assembly, for which John was not great enough?

G.R.C. You are thinking that John could not bring Him into those restful conditions, but we are privileged to do it. That sounds good.

E.A.K. Does the second sign, alluded to in chapter 4: 54 suggest that there has been advance, as it says in verse 46, "He came therefore again to Cana of Galilee, where he made the water wine"?

G.R.C. I think there is a link. Here we have the setting up of a home, a marriage, but there we have an established home. And that is what is in view. If the Lord graciously attends a marriage, He has in view the setting up of an established home, which you get at the end of chapter 4. It needed adjustment; and when our homes are established they need adjustment, not only on the marriage day.

P.L. Would it be the joys of the kingdom? -- it is a millennial scene. The mother saying "Whatever he may say to you, do" is like the remnant in a coming day addressing Israel. The whole scene does not go beyond kingdom and millennial joys, and your point is that love, for its own satisfaction, could never stay in what is merely beneficent; it must secure conditions of rest worthy of itself.

G.R.C. You are thinking of verse 12, "not many days". So that millennial conditions though blessed are not final; they would not satisfy the God who has

been declared. When God made His name known as "I am", it was connected with dwelling. He had made Himself known in connection with certain titles in Genesis, such as Elohim, and El, Most High, Almighty, and so on; and those titles were connected with promises to men; but God had not promised to dwell; God promises what men feel the need of, He promises things to encourage faith. But while the promises meet the need of man, dwelling meets the need of God, as we may say, the need of His affections. And while He did give light as to His house to Jacob, in the testimonial setting of it, the thought of dwelling, from the love standpoint, comes into Exodus, when God makes known His personal name; because we dwell with people known and loved personally. And therefore, if God was going to dwell, He would make known His personal name, "I am that I am". And we can see now that love was in that, for God is love. And so He makes it clear that He would dwell, even though there were 'bush' conditions. He would not wait for perfect conditions, He would dwell in mixed conditions amongst His people; and that is the position at the moment, He loves us and He dwells amongst us. But then He dwells relative to His own work in us, which is outside of nature, even though we are still in mixed conditions. The millennial scene would not fully satisfy God who has come out thus; love requires the eternal scene.

A.J.G. Does not the hour really have in mind this present dispensation when the Spirit is here, and God is dwelling? The Lord, in John 17:1 says "Father, the hour is come", as though it was a period that, speaking reverently, the Persons of the Godhead had long looked forward to, and it had now come. Here the Lord says "mine hour has not yet come". His hour was not connected with improving the best of what was natural, His hour was connected with the introduction of what was wholly spiritual.

G.R.C. That is very good. So that His hour would be connected with spiritual conditions where dwelling could be permanent. The later chapters of John would have that in mind.

F.H. Will you say a word as to the servants. They filled the vessels with water.

G.R.C. We find that His mother was rapidly adjusted, that is, nature was rapidly adjusted, and she says "Whatever he may say to you, do". So that nature stands aside, and He now is in charge so far as directing operations is concerned; and "Jesus says to them, Fill the water-vessels with water". They were true servants. They did what they were told.

F.H. Would you indicate to us how that operates now with purification in view.

G.R.C. If we take the place of being servants, and we each would do so, in our measure, then we must look to it that we fill the water pots with water. I would think in that case the water pot is myself.

E.J.H. "And they filled them to the brim". Do you think that might suggest totality of the acceptance of purification?

G.R.C. What a response it was! "Fill the water-vessels with water. And they filled them up to the brim". It was thorough. And it is just a question of whether the water becomes wine unless they are filled to the brim. The Lord says "fill" them.

P.L. You are referring to servants. Paul says "Death works in us, but life in you", 2 Corinthians 4:11. Is that the water to the brim, and the wine poured out? And then "bearing about in the body the dying of Jesus", verse 10; is that the water to the brim? And then "that the life also of Jesus may be made manifest in our mortal flesh", and that the pouring out?

G.R.C. I think that chapter is excellent as bearing on this, because it is a testimonial chapter. We have spoken of witness, and that chapter opens up how we can be true witnesses of Christ here, "always bearing

about in the body the dying of Jesus, that the life also of Jesus may be manifested in our mortal flesh".

P.H.H. Do you think that the mention of 'stone' here would allude to something permanent brought about in the saints, although dispensationally the incident relates to the millennium? Is there a sense in which this goes on to some kind of completion, "the third day"; that is, in the present time of the Spirit there should be the working of death with us, fully; and then the wine available? Would that point to something permanently with the saints which might mark them at any time?

G.R.C. I think so. After all, the work of God in us stands related to eternity, and remains. It comes into evidence and effect in the testimonial sphere; but it remains.

A.T.B. Would you say, in relation to the water pots being according to the purification of the Jews, that it never went, with them, any further than that? There was always something lacking. Now this glorious Person coming in brings in a different realm altogether. It says "Wine being deficient", and wine always will be deficient until He has His place, will it not?

G.R.C. The purification of the Jews could only be something outward, and would therefore be an offensive thing. But true purification involves the filling of the water vessels with water, and that means the complete displacement of self. John the baptist himself is the great sample of one of these water-vessels, only he is not thinking of an ordinary marriage. He says "He that has the bride is the bridegroom". He is thinking of the great marriage, and he, as the friend of the bridegroom, rejoices to hear His voice, and says, "this my joy then is fulfilled", or 'filled full'. But why was his joy filled full? Because he was 'filled full with water'; he said: "He must increase, but I must decrease". John the baptist, I believe, in this

section, is the great example of a water pot filled to the brim, and therefore his joy was filled full. He was a vessel full of joy; and this is the way of joy. We do not realise it; we think purification is going to mean loss in the sense that we have got to give up things, but purification is going to mean immense gain, because it means that our joy will be filled full. It is that little bit short of the brim that spoils things. Some of us have enough water nearly to come to the brim, but not quite; so we lose the pleasures of sin on the one hand and we lose the joy of God's world on the other. We have retained just a little bit of self-centredness, even in our service, it may be. But it is a question of filling to the brim.

W.S.S. Does the beginning of Luke give us a picture of vessels filled -- Zacharias, and Elizabeth, and Mary, and Simeon, and Anna?

G.R.C. Indeed; and what a portion God got from them. Song is the result of joy. If there is to be song to God there must be joy. "He hath put a new song in my mouth", it is the joy of Christ coming forth in resurrection, all the toil and suffering over, a new song, a song that He had never sung before, and could not have sung until He had been through those experiences. Christ coming forth from death, greeted by the glory of the Father, and ascending to the Father says "And he hath put a new song in my mouth", Psalm 40; 3. It is the fruit of fulness of joy. So that the service and praise of God depend on purification.

W.S.S. And the water becomes wine in that way; the purification becomes joy.

G.R.C. Yes, and how little we understand it, how little we believe it. If we really believed it, what an incentive to fill the water pots to the brim. As I say, it is that little bit short of the brim -- how we know it in our experience -- that little reserve of self-centredness, instead of thoroughly letting everything go for Christ, that mars the joy.

G.R.D. Was this lacking with Barnabas in wanting to take John Mark? There is the danger of nature, and its links, intruding into the realm of divine operations.

G.R.C. Nature must be kept in its place, and the filling with water would involve that all motives that spring from the influences of nature are judged. Barnabas, at that time, was not quite filled, he had got reserves of nature about his nephew.

G.R.D. Would you also link with nature what is national? It may have come in in connection with Barnabas and John Mark going to Cyprus.

G.R.C. Family pride and national pride are both close to us.

A.J.G. While the feast-master and others enjoyed the wine, it was the servants who had filled the water-vessels up to the brim who knew where it came from. It shows that they had got some gain out of the experience, and what the Lord had told them to do.

G.R.C. So they would be true Levites; they would know how to get the wine. Would it show how much such persons would benefit the saints as a whole?

A.J.G. I think so. I suppose the stone would be the work of God in us, which basically is ready to respond to the truth, and will respond to it as it is presented attractively in Christ. But there is the side of our responding to the truth, and taking up the exercise of filling up the water pots with water.

E.I. Is there some parallel with this and the various stages in the recovery from J.N.D.'s time onward? Are we in the best days, to which the past ministry has led?

G.R.C. We are having the best wine.

R.C. Would there be any link with this water and what is said to come from the side of Jesus?

G.R.C. I think so. The water would not be available apart from that.

R.C. Would the means of effecting this purification be presented in such a touching way, to re-

move our affections to make room for the water?

G.R.C. "This is he that came by water and blood". He has brought, through His death, the means of cleansing. So that the water, that is the application of His death, is available to us, and it is an affectionate matter, as you say. It should not be a hardship to us to fill with water, when we think of the death of Jesus.

P.H.H. Is the water more for our state?

G.R.C. Quite so. And here particularly the state of nature, the way nature would intrude and hinder what is spiritual. At the same time we need to keep in mind that the Lord would come to marriage meetings with a view to securing the natural sphere of home life relative to the testimony, but on this principle of purification. Young people are often reminded, and rightly, that without it, the joy will run out; that the real joy, even of the natural link, depends upon those concerned being set together in the testimony. We see all around us that the natural link in itself does not satisfy; it breaks down amongst men. But it is a great thing for the Lord to have households based on this principle, where nature, in itself, is not relied upon; but in the running of the home, and the appointments of the home, and all that is done in the home, God is the Centre and the Object and the Motive.

W.S.S. Would it raise an exercise as to what is the prominent thought in a marriage meeting, whether the Lord has the first place there?

G.R.C. I think this incident should teach us to give the Lord first place at a marriage meeting, so that it becomes a sphere for the manifestation of His glory; and where His disciples believe on Him.

P.H.H. So that what we were reminded about the other day [in London] becomes a practical matter, that is, that the meeting is to be an occasion for the glory of Christ. It would not be right to forget that the literal bridegroom and the bride are there, so that

there would be practical touches in ministry given which would bear upon the couple; but they would be on the high level suggested in Christ and His link with the assembly.

G.R.C. How sanctifying that would be for the commencement of the marriage link! This water is not a question of asceticism, it is not legality. We are in a right way, to enjoy nature; in fact, in the literal setting, the Lord supplies an abundance of wine.

W.B.H. A.E.M. was remarking a little while ago that a great deal that obtains at a marriage meeting, might well come before the saints at a prayer meeting, so that the occasion might be given up more to a ministry bearing on Christ and the assembly.

G.R.C. Yes, having in view, a purified household. Not an unnatural household, not a household marked by asceticism, or death to nature, which is a heresy, but a household where the Lord has the place He should have; the Lord is the Object and Motive, whereas men generally, in all the appointments of the home, have self before them.

A.W.G.T. Would the households referred to in the end of Corinthians be very happy households? One of them is spoken of as being addicted to the saints for service.

G.R.C. The households become spheres for enjoying what belongs to eternity. Unpurified households may become centres of mischief. But the whole of the light of John 1 should govern our homes. We have to remember that those who leave the place where Christ is are defective in their apprehension of the glory of the Person of Christ. Christ is not accorded by them the honour and glory due to Him as a Divine Person. That would rob them of the ability to worship God rightly.

F.E.S. In contrast to that these servants would suggest a circle where we can help one another? The servants filled the vessels.

G.R.C. We would all seek to be servants to serve the Lord in some way; so what an exercise it is for each of us to see to it that he is a vessel filled to the brim with water. We cannot help people in our service, morally, beyond where we are ourselves. How important to have really purified Levites. The Levites were purified, the water of purification was sprinkled on them apart from the question of whether they had touched a dead body or not. Apart from any question of actual defilement the whole exercise of purification was to be entered into by them.

W.B. Referring to the brim, is it interesting that the brim of the great molten sea was ornamented with lily-work?

G.R.C. The lilies would suggest chastity and purity. You can understand that being linked with the brim.

A.G.B. The marriage becomes the setting for the beginning of signs. The purified household becomes a basis for all that God has in mind in the signs. John says he writes that we might believe.

G.R.C. In the recovery to the truth, things began in households, one would judge. The truth was cherished there, and it led on to an apprehension more and more of the truth of the assembly. How households figure in Paul's ministry in Europe particularly; we have Lydia's house, the jailor's house and others.

L.A.C. Does not purification become the means of preserving the saints in the testimony from being reduced and lessened in quality? The feast-master suggests that the normal course of things would be for the worst wine to be brought on last. Has it not been noticeable in the great recoveries from the Reformation onwards, that things have not been maintained on the level where they began? And have we not to be preserved now from a decline?

G.R.C. I think so; and I do not think there will be a decline. Some of us may decline, individuals may

decline, we have all got to watch that; but I do not think this revival is going to end in decline; I think it will be the best wine at the end.

We have in what follows the purification of the ecclesiastical scene, the Lord cleansing it from commercialism, and what would go with it, clericalism. Those two things are linked in Christendom, and are things we have to face up to; we have to see that our motives are in no sense governed by commercial, or clerical, considerations, because commercialism and clericalism are foreign to the house of God. The Lord "made a scourge of cords". If we think of the history of the revival, this was what the Lord did through J.N.D. But it is touching that it says here the Lord made it. Think of the Lord setting to work to make a scourge of cords, and then the courage of it, "he cast them all out of the temple, both the sheep and oxen; and he poured out the change of the money-changers, and overturned the tables, and said to the sellers of doves, Take these things hence".

A.P.B. Would the Lord have the temple, which was the Father's house, as He spoke of it, in keeping with the temple of His body?

G.R.C. As to the temple that He cleansed, we should have to apply it in our day to Christendom generally, with a view to the temple of His body coming into view in its practical working at the end. That is what you have in mind?

A.P.B. It is. Do we see the uniqueness of what there was in His actual body, what was manifest in Himself, in His life here? But then there has to be "the body" as a practical thing down here now which reflects Himself.

G.R.C. Just so. The Lord has made the scourge of cords, and cleansed the temple, doing it, in the main, through J.N.D. Luther had a part no doubt, but J.N.D. was used of the Lord to expose every corrupt practice in Christendom, from one end to the other.

He exposed clericalism and commercialism unmercifully; and it made way for the recovery to the truth of the body, and therefore of the true temple.

M.H.T. Do we see similar violent action in the closing chapter of Nehemiah, where he commanded the Levites that they should purify themselves (Nehemiah 13:22), and cleansed the city from commercialism?

G.R.C. Specially there relating to the sabbath. Nehemiah had purged the house of God of the household stuff of Tobijah; but then the commercial element endeavoured to intrude upon the sabbath. It shows the kind of vigilance we have got to maintain. If the wall is up and the gates are functioning, we must not be slack, lest these practices again appear. What a sad thing if they appear amongst those who have part in the revival!

E.A.K. I was thinking of Zechariah 14:21. Would it be right to say that the Spirit's present voice is to the end that "there shall be no more a Canaanite in the house of Jehovah of hosts"? Would not the meaning of Canaanite, given as merchant, be over against the precious thought of the merchant in Matthew 13, relative to the assembly -- the pearl of great value?

G.R.C. Very good. Zechariah 14:21 begins "And every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto Jehovah". That links on with the first part of this chapter. Here the Lord is cleansing God's house, but in Zechariah "every pot in Jerusalem" refers to what is in our houses; the houses are in keeping with God's house. Zechariah 14:20 says "In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses HOLINESS UNTO JEHOVAH". That is something like John the baptist going forth. There was no secret about his testimony. Whatever our goings are, the bells of the horses should indicate holiness unto Jehovah. That is a purified idea; and then "the pots in Jehovah's house shall be like the bowls before the altar. And

every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto Jehovah of hosts". So that all the homes of the saints, as we say, are in keeping with the house of God.

P.L. Would the expression "and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein" bear on the dying of Jesus? Vessels available for the suffering of Christ to find expression testimonially?

G.R.C. That is a very deep suggestion, and very searching. You are thinking of ourselves as the vessels?

P.L. Yes, "come and take of them"; a vessel meet for the Master's use, but serviceable to all, do you think, who have the service of God in mind? I thought that Mary Magdalene was such a vessel. She had stood at the cross, she had entered into the sufferings of Christ; what a vessel suited of the Lord to communicate His mind as to God's service!

G.R.C. Very good.

L.L. Does the principle of trustworthiness enter into this? Just before the close of the chapter it says "But Jesus did not trust himself to them". Should the principle of trustworthiness be found with us, and the principle of purification be constantly applied, if we are to get the benefit of this holy joy in our homes and in the assembly?

G.R.C. I think that is the point of the closing part, "many believed on his name, beholding his signs which he wrought". That is, they were convinced by the signs; it may have been only the natural mind convinced. The natural mind may be convinced by evidences of God's work, and say, 'There is something in Christianity', and may even patronize it, without any real repentance or self-judgment. There is no purification there.

Ques. Is that seen in Nicodemus, in the next chapter, when he says "we know that thou art a teacher"?

G.R.C. Yes. But then, the record shows that there was more than that with him. There was something underneath. But he was not clear, the rubbish was riot removed.

P.H.H. Are we to observe that there is an inward bearing to this sign? The word 'temple' in verse 14 is the public building, but when they ask Him "What sign shewest thou to us, that thou doest these things? Jesus answered and said to them, Destroy this temple", which is Naos -- the shrine. Does that point to the necessity for our minds to take a spiritual turn, and observe what is inward in the signs which Jesus is doing?

G.R.C. So that the point is for us to arrive at that inward thought, the shrine itself; and, on the way to it, there is the cleansing from commercialism and clericalism. We must get those things away, and keep them out. There must be the purification, in that sense, in ourselves, as well as in those we walk with generally, and first of all to make way for what the Lord calls "my Father's house". It is not "my Father's house" in the sense of John 14 here, but the Lord is referring to what is on the earth at the present time, and it should be a sphere of family affections, and family affections are lacking in Christendom. Commercialism and clericalism dominate, and we have congregationalism instead of the family. And so the first result, I believe, of cleansing in this sense is to bring back the saints to true family affection. "By this shall all know that ye are disciples of mine, if ye have love amongst yourselves", John 13:35 -- a circle of love. Then, where you have a circle of love you get the gain of the shrine, as 1 Corinthians 13 indicates. You have the body, and the manifestations of the Spirit, in chapter 12, set out as doctrine, but the apostle in effect says, 'If you are to know this, you must have love'. And so where there are family affections operating, it makes way for us to under-

stand the truth of the body, and therefore, the truth of the temple.

P.L. God dwelling among you of a truth, 1 Corinthians 14:25. The temple would be where God speaks.

P.H.H. And "The zeal of thy house devours me". Would that reflect upon our practical exercises in bringing in purification ourselves? Here it clearly referred to the Lord Himself, but I wondered whether the spirit of it might extend to the exercises which we are sharing together now, for instance.

P.L. So that Psalm 69, from which that verse is quoted, says, in verse 8, "I am become a stranger unto my brethren, and an alien unto my mother's sons". Is that the purification from the natural, so that there may be zeal for the spiritual, the house?

G.R.C. So that undoubtedly this should come to us by extension, "The zeal of thy house devours me".

E.J.H. And then it says "and the reproaches of them that reproach thee have fallen upon me". Where there is concern in regard to purification in a religious way, there will certainly be reproach to be accepted.

G.R.C. We have to be prepared for that.

G.R.D. Would you think that the disciples had particularly got the gain of this purification, when it says they "believed the scripture and the word which Jesus had spoken". I was wondering whether the great thought of the temple as a place for divine light to shine, does not make the scripture shine, and also brings the present word of the Lord, spoken by the Spirit, in a living way amongst us.

G.R.C. I think you have the principle of the temple there, that they believed the scripture -- that is, nothing would pass in the temple that had not a basis in scripture -- but then there is what is current, and what was current at the time was "the word which Jesus had spoken". Today it is what the Spirit is saying. There is what is current, what the Spirit is saying; and it shows the importance of always relating

the two together. If we want to support what is current, it is not sufficient to go back only to past ministry; that will help, and elucidate, and carries a certain authority; but if a thing is questioned, we must get back to scripture to support it. They believed the scripture. Past ministry was based on scripture. It is a great thing in reading meetings to get the basis in scripture; we can happily bring in past ministry when there is no conflict on, it supports; and, of course, in measure it can be brought in when conflict is on, but then you must also have scripture, otherwise you will lose the battle.

A.W.G.T. "To the law and the testimony", Isaiah 8:20.

G.R.C. Yes. So they believed the scripture, but then there is what is current. Of course the Lord's word was on the full level of scripture, we know; but then there is the Spirit's word today, what the Spirit is saying. It is not part of the inspired written record, but there is what the Spirit is saying, and it shows the importance of all of us keeping in touch with what is current.

P.L. Would it be right to say that the Lord trusts Himself 'Philadelphianwise' to such? He makes a good deal of the temple in Philadelphia, does He not? And would the Laodicean setting be the Lord refusing to trust Himself to what claims falsely His name, do you think?

G.R.C. Yes. I believe Philadelphia is the condition that this gospel would bring us to, on this line of purification.

P.L. So that there is a moral judgment of all that morally lies outside of that.

P.H.H. Going back to your remarks about the ministry; I discern what you have in mind is the importance of discerning what is being said now. You used the word 'current', that, while the ministry of old may, in general and in regard of principles, be very

useful, there are certain important distinctions being made nowadays; and would not the Spirit bear them out in what He says? So it is very necessary for us to be spiritually up-to-date. I am impressed with this expression they "believed the scripture and the word which Jesus had spoken". One of the Lord's words in each of the addresses to the assemblies is to the overcomer in relation to what the Spirit says. So that we would be coming short if we did not add that now, what the Spirit says to the assemblies.

P.L. Could you make an application as to the glory filling the tabernacle in Exodus 40? The scripture, corresponding to the tabernacle, the law and the testimony, all according to the divine pattern; but then the glory filling. Could you liken it, by way of application, to the word of Jesus and the voice of the Spirit, giving a character, a fulness and tone, to all that has been set up?

P.H.H. I think we can see what you mean; I am sure that is something enriching.

A.J.G. You have been referring to Philadelphia. The Lord makes a good deal of reference to His word, in speaking to that assembly. They had kept His word, and they had kept the word of His patience. You were speaking of the word that Jesus had spoken, the present mind of Christ.

A.P.B. Has not much that is adjusting during the last 40 or 50 years, come out in temple conditions? Therefore we must not belittle the truth that has come out in meetings such as in London and elsewhere, because, if we are alert to see it, we see that it is what is being spoken in the temple.

G.R.C. So that really it is in the temple we get the present gain of the Word becoming flesh and dwelling among us. I mean, Christ is not here now personally, but the Spirit brings to us what is presently needed, of that which is fully expressed in Him as the Word.

PURIFICATION AND LIFE (3)

John 3:1 - 30

G.R.C. Chapter 2 deals with purification in the sphere of natural relationships, and in the sphere of the profession, the religious sphere. This chapter brings it down to each one of us in a personal way. The Lord's teaching goes to the root of the matter inwardly. So that it is of the utmost importance that we should get help by the Spirit to understand the meaning of the Lord's teaching to Nicodemus. Some may wonder why we are linking purification with life; Romans links justification with life. Death has come upon us because we have all sinned, and justification from the judicial standpoint is essential if we are to have life. The cause of death coming upon us must be removed. Justification freed us from the sins, the guilt, which brought death upon us, so that justification is in view of life, it is justification of life. And on that basis of judicial clearance, the act of favour of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. But if we are to enjoy eternal life, purification is essential. It is one thing to see that, as justified, the way into life for us is clear, but it is another matter to enter into and enjoy eternal life. That necessitates purification, so that John in his gospel speaks of purification, and purification is spoken of in Hebrews, where it is a question of drawing near to God. The way is open for us to draw near to God, but nothing impure can come into His presence. So that even as to sins in Hebrews, it speaks of the Lord Jesus as "having made by himself the purification of sins", Hebrews 1:3. We need justification, but God's nature requires purification. The work of Christ upon the

cross has provided for both. It is the basis of our justification and of our purification. So that John's gospel has in mind that we should come into the enjoyment of eternal life, just as his first epistle has. And, of course, if we are not in the gain of eternal life, the other great thoughts of God cannot be worked out. We saw yesterday how the Lord deals with what is in the sphere of profession; commercialism and clericalism have been exposed. And, in the ministry God has given, they have been swept aside in the minds of the saints, (and we need to beware lest we let them come in again) but all with a view to God's great thoughts being worked out, such as the family and the truth of the body. We have been restored to these things, the truth of the family, the truth of the body, and therefore the truth of the temple, because where there are body conditions the Spirit is free, and we have the truth of the temple. But underlying all those matters is the enjoyment of life. Life is enjoyed in the family, and the working of life is in the body, and in the temple we prove that God is dwelling among us. You can understand therefore, how purification is needed, not only from the practices which the ministry has exposed, but also inwardly, and this chapter is basic to that. The Lord is dealing with a teacher in Israel. We may say this is most elementary truth, being born anew, and yet it seems perfectly certain that many who have taken the place of teachers amongst us (I mean right from the beginning of the revival) and yet have gone astray themselves, have never understood this. They have never understood the implications of the word, "It is needful that ye should be born anew". There must have been with them some retention of that which is born of the flesh, carried along with whatever they had in a divine way. This chapter is intended to sort the matter out for us, so that we do not carry along with us, in a practical way, that which is born of the flesh.

J.Hr. Has the Lord got in mind Ezekiel 36:26, when he speaks of a new heart, and a new spirit within you?

G.R.C. "Thou art the teacher of Israel and knowest not these things?" Ought not Nicodemus to have known that chapter?

J.Hr. Yes. I was thinking of the inward matter, the entirely new beginning, a new heart, and a new spirit within you. "And I will put my Spirit within you", Ezekiel 36:27.

P.L. And "I will increase them with men like a flock. As the flock of Jerusalem in her set feasts, so shall the waste cities be filled with flocks of men: and they shall know that I am Jehovah" in verse 38. It is the person born anew, not just something in them, is it? Would that finally, as seen in John, give us to increase flock-wise, which is really, according to John 10, in eternal life?

G.R.C. That is very helpful. God hates mixtures, and as you say, the man himself is born anew; but then we have in us that which is born of the flesh, but we are to see that we do not go along with a mixture in ourselves. There is to be maintained a thorough self-judgment, we are to be preserved in dust and ashes as to all that we are after the flesh, so that we go on with what we are as born anew; and, as chapter 4 would show, doing so in the power of the Spirit springing up within us. But what you say is very beautiful, because this is how the sheep are brought to pass, is it not?

P.L. That is the flock of Jerusalem in her set feasts. Would that bear on the great matter of holiness? We have righteousness in our justification, but holiness relating to our purification; and without holiness no one shall see the Lord, Hebrews 12:14 -- the service of God being ultimately in mind in all that is before us.

G.R.C. That is just what is in mind. So that the

sheep are brought to pass by the sovereign operation of the Spirit, "My sheep hear my voice", but how are they brought to pass? "The wind blows where it will, and thou hearest its voice, but knowest not whence it comes and where it goes: thus is every one that is born of the Spirit". There are to be no mixtures, we are to learn to sort things out within, just as there are to be no mixtures without. We are to purify ourselves both in this inward sense, and also in the outward; perfecting holiness in both connections. And, as you say, it has in view the set feasts of Jehovah. The feasts are referred to in this gospel. They were just feasts of the Jews, but what is in mind in the gospel is the great feast of Jehovah, and in particular, the last, the great day of the feast; that we should arrive at finality as to God's thoughts and purposes and be before Him in full liberty relative to them, for His praise.

E.J.H. And the sheep in John 10 have no element of imperfection in them, everything that is said about them is in accord with new birth.

G.R.C. Showing that the Spirit of God does not look upon us from the standpoint of mixture. We are identified, in the Divine mind, with the work of the Spirit in us. It is the man himself who is born anew.

M.H.T. Is it of interest to see that the word "anew" is the same word that is applied to the Lord's body-coat later on, that was without seam, woven from the top; suggesting, "as he is, we also are in this world", 1 John 4:17.

G.R.C. I remember J.T. speaking of new birth as from the top. And the same word is used at the end of the chapter, "He who comes from above" verse 31; it is the same word as "anew".

M.H.T. I understand that the derivation of the word implies tracing a river to its source and is found elsewhere; in Luke 1:3 we have "from the origin", and the veil of the temple was said to be rent in two "from the top to the bottom", Matthew 27:51.

G.R.C. It shows that this operation is outside of the scope of man; it is from above in that sense, it has not its origin in anything that man could do; it is a sovereign divine operation.

P.H.H. Is the Lord therefore speaking to Nicodemus in order to get him on to this spiritual line? That is, would the rulers and teachers in this setting think that everything was governed by them, whereas the Lord is setting out that there must be 'a new source of life and point of departure'? That is, in divine operations by the Spirit.

G.R.C. So that it is a great thing to trace things to the source, and the source here is the Spirit, it is God; God is the source, and it is God operating Spiritwise.

F.E.S. Are we helped in chapter 1 of this gospel as to those who were born of God? Do we get the right beginning and source there, not of man's will, but born of God?

G.R.C. I think the thought of "born of God" gives the full idea. This gives detail as to the operations, "born anew", "born of water and of the Spirit", and then the character of what is wrought, "that which is born of the Spirit is spirit". But it all sums up in that great thought of being born of God, which can hardly be predicated of anyone until they receive the testimony of God. The Spirit operates before we receive the testimony of God. Born anew -- that operation may occur in some cases some time before conversion; but the soul, as the result of these operations, then receives, and therefore is formed by, the testimony of God in Christ, and can then be said to be born of God.

L.A.C. Is it important to notice that the water is mentioned before the Spirit in Ezekiel 36, and the clean water which is used for sprinkling Israel comes before the wind, or the Spirit, in chapter 37? "I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your uncleannesses and from all your idols

will I cleanse you", Ezekiel 36:25. Then verse 26 goes on "And I will give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit within you". In chapter 37 the matter of the wind, or Spirit, is introduced as following the mention of the clean water. I wondered if they were connected.

G.R.C. "I will sprinkle clean water upon you" may bear upon the thought of being born of water and of the Spirit, as the Lord goes on to enlarge on the subject. "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except any one be born of water and of Spirit", so that there is the clean water, and how thankful we should be for the water that flowed out of the side of Christ, and that we are born relative to that. It enters into our very birth, the very beginning of things with us. And we get the idea of the sprinkling of the water of purification upon the Levites; apart from any question of whether they had touched anything dead, the water was sprinkled upon them, "And thus shalt thou do unto them, to cleanse them: sprinkle upon them water of purification from sin", Numbers 8:7. Then there is what they do, "they shall pass the razor over all their flesh, and shall wash their garments, and make themselves clean". There is what is done for us, and in us; but there is our taking the matter up -- what they did, they passed the razor over all their flesh, and they washed their garments to make themselves clean. John 3 would be more initial, for it refers to birth. What you say as to Ezekiel 36 bears on new birth, as applying to Israel; but I think the breath, and the bones coming together in chapter 37 refer to what is collective. It is a question here in John 3 of what is personal and we each need to take it to heart. The Lord is dealing with one man, a teacher in Israel, who did not even know this; and there are many teachers in Christendom who do not know this, there may be those amongst us who do not know this; they may know the terms of it, but not the meaning of it. But then, what is corporate is in view; the bones

coming together, and so on, refers more to body formation. Is that right?

A.J.G. Yes, I thought so. The early part of this gospel is dealing with the individual in view of what is collective and corporate in the latter part, is it not?

G.R.C. That is just what I thought. And finally the Lord does breathe into them.

A.B. Would the question of being born of water and the Spirit refer to what is constitutional?

G.R.C. I think that is what is implied. Our very birth is on this principle; we are born of water, and of Spirit.

E.I. When F.E.R. brought forward the truth as to eternal life, and it was being opposed and refused, he fell back upon the truth of the kingdom, and the moral side that has to be faced.

G.R.C. I am glad you refer to F.E.R., because what happened at that time gives point to what is before us. Those who opposed the truth of eternal life were, I understand, continually preaching and pressing the idea of people being born again. It was one of their great themes. But, if they had known the truth involved in being born anew, they would never have gone out of fellowship, they would never have opposed F.E.R. Those who talk most loudly about being born again, at this present time, are those who know least about it.

P.H.H. It is confused with conversion in a good many cases.

G.R.C. It is. In fact, the men who opposed F.E.R. seemed to be in complete confusion about the great truths of Christianity; reconciliation, justification, new birth, and other things, all meant the same thing to them. But we are intended to distinguish between each feature of the truth -- each feature is distinctive. And the seriousness of not understanding the truth is very great; for it lies at the foundation of personal purification, and therefore of

liberty and serviceability, as suited to the God dwelling amongst us. If we are not clear about this, we shall carry something of that which is born of the flesh into the meetings, and even let it intrude into the service of God.

P.B. As having been born after the flesh, have we not partaken of a contaminated source?

G.R.C. We have. It is a great and a sweeping thing to recognise that all that we have derived, as after the flesh, is polluted, and that purification involves the setting aside of the whole man, as we speak; that is the setting aside of all that is born of the flesh, in each one of us.

A.W.G.T. Has not that been spoken of as the collapse of the man? You have spoken most solemnly about those who have turned aside after having ministered, and was not that the lack -- the collapse of the man was not appreciated in relation to new birth?

G.R.C. One desires that there might be something of this collapse this morning. I feel the need of it myself.

A.J.G. Is it not significant that this chapter 3 brings in the serpent being lifted up? Was not that a great lesson that Israel had to learn, and that we have to learn, that what characterises the flesh has been derived from the serpent, it is the poison of the serpent?

G.R.C. That is very interesting, because it links with the idea of source. We have spoken of source in connection with "Except any one be born anew"; we have got to trace this operation to its source; it comes from God by the Spirit. There is nothing pure about man in the flesh; if there is to be anything for God, it must come from God. Sin in the flesh comes from another source, and that is the serpent.

A.J.G. It is either the serpent or God; and when Paul was sent to preach, he had to preach that the people might turn from the power of Satan to God;

there was nothing between the two. It was either one thing or the other.

G.R.C. I am very glad you have brought that in, because we have to take account of the fact that new birth and the brazen serpent are put in juxtaposition in this chapter. One is the moral counterpart of the other; and that is why so few people who talk about new birth know the meaning of it. They have not reached the brazen serpent. No one understands why they had to be born anew until, in their experience, they reach the brazen serpent. They may talk about it, and may be sure they are born anew -- thank God for that; but no one arrives at the fact that he had to be, that it was absolutely essential that he should be born anew, until he arrives at the brazen serpent. Perhaps not many of us have arrived there.

-.P. You were speaking of using the terms and not understanding the meaning. Is that why John uses the expressions "which is interpreted", and "which means", the interpretation suggesting the help of the Holy Spirit in understanding?

G.R.C. I do not think any soul understands the real meaning of new birth until they have arrived at the brazen serpent. And I think we ought to take that to heart. We can talk very glibly about new birth, but have we arrived at the brazen serpent? Because if we have not arrived there, we have not understood the implications of new birth.

W.B.H. Does David arrive at this thought in Psalm 51, when he says in verses 5 and 6 "Behold, in iniquity was I brought forth, and in sin did my mother conceive me. Behold, thou wilt have truth in the inward parts; and in the hidden part thou wilt make me to know wisdom", and in verse 10 "Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me"?

G.R.C. Yes. It bears on the point that we have to be born again. The Lord says in verse 7, "Do not

wonder that I said to thee, It is needful that ye should be born again". And there is a link between that verse and verse 14, "as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, thus must the Son of man be lifted up". In the Authorised Version, 'must' is used in both verses, "ye must be born again", "the Son of man must be lifted up". The word is exactly the same in the Greek. So that they are equally forceful expressions.

E.A.K. Is it apposite that Elisha, at the outset of his ministry casts the salt in at the source, that there might be no more death and barren ground? It was an initial matter with him, in the ministry of grace.

A.T.B. "He who comes from above is above all. He who has his origin in the earth is of the earth, and speaks as of the earth. He who comes out of heaven is above all", verse 31. There is a distinct new source, altogether from Him.

G.R.C. The truth is that man cannot rise above himself, he is the source of his own thoughts, and he is a creature under the power of sin and Satan. And if you think of that, that he cannot rise above himself, and yet is under the power of the serpent, where can he get to? Only to perdition! We are dependent upon a source outside of ourselves.

L.A.C. Why is sight introduced here, "cannot see the kingdom of God"; and the serpent as lifted up had to be looked upon? Would there be a link with Ecclesiastes 11:5? "As thou knowest not what is the way of the Spirit, (or the wind) how the bones grow in the womb of her that is with child, even so thou knowest not the work of God who maketh all". And verse 7 says "Now the light is sweet, and pleasant is it to the eyes to see the sun".

G.R.C. That touches on what we have here as to the wind. The wind blows where it will, but it is all with a view to man having his eyes opened to see the light. Apart from that operation of the Spirit none of

us would ever have capacity to see the light. And I doubt if we see the light properly until we have looked intently at the brazen serpent.

L.L. Will you please say a little as to the meaning of that remarkable statement, the brazen serpent?

G.R.C. It is quite evident that if those who opposed F.E.R. had looked intently at the brazen serpent they would never have gone astray, and they would have understood eternal life in the way he was putting it out. They were marked by the refusal to accept God's complete condemnation of sin in the flesh, when Jesus was made sin; it is necessary to accept that, as bearing on myself; it is not just something that bears generally, but looking at the brazen serpent means that I accept it as bearing on myself, in the determining of matters in myself; and that is a crucial matter.

A.J.G. So that anyone who was bitten by a serpent at that time was conscious that the poison of the serpent was working in him, and his only relief was to look intently at the brazen serpent.

G.R.C. Quite so. The poison of the serpent is working in us, and we may not realise it. These persons in the end of chapter 2, who "believed on his name, beholding his signs which he wrought" were such that the Lord did not commit Himself to them, because they had not arrived at this lesson. If a man calls himself a believer you cannot trust him unless he has arrived at this. Has the man collapsed? Has the man arrived in his soul at the truth of the brazen serpent? If so, he will have arrived at the fact that he had to be born again, because nothing in him after the flesh is worth anything at all.

F.E.S. Why is it a brazen serpent here? I was wondering whether there is a certain deliverance in seeing that the brazen serpent really refers to Christ in the position He has taken. It is not an actual serpent, but it is something as seen; a great matter of deliverance

that Christ has actually been into death for us.

G.R.C. You mean it refers to Christ taking a vicarious position. How we need to ponder it, that "Him who knew not sin he has made sin for us", 2 Corinthians 5:21; that He was hanging on the cross as made sin and the full condemnation fell upon Him. All that God is, J.N.D. says, He is against sin. And all that fell upon Jesus.

F.P.S. Is the statement "The Son of God has been manifested, that he might undo the works of the devil" 1 John 3:8, going right back to the source of sin coming in?

G.R.C. I think what we are referring to lays the basis for that undoing. The undoing suggests work in detail. In His death the Lord Jesus annulled him that has the power of death, and annulled death itself; but the works of the devil are detailed matters. This meeting may help in the undoing of the works of the devil, through our sorting things out in ourselves. The undoing is a process. It is going to be done in the world as a whole; man is going to be removed from his place as centre and object, and God will be Centre and Object. But that is being worked out in us now, and this chapter is fundamental to it.

A.P.B. Is this reached through what we speak of as 'the seventh of Romans', in that you have there a picture of a person who is born anew, but who has not really yet reached the full condemnation of himself, and his identification with what he is as born of God?

G.R.C. I think so. The man in Romans 7 is an encouraging condition, because he is conscious of being serpent-bitten. There are persons who profess Christianity, and one would not say they are not true believers; they are like those at the end of chapter 2; they are convinced that Christianity is true, but yet retain themselves. This is what one dreads because, if you retain yourself, you just clothe yourself with Christian virtues to make a better man of yourself,

and it makes you all the more impervious to the truth inwardly. You take the ground of being a good Christian man. Even amongst ourselves, it may be one may say, 'I am in touch with all that is going, I keep in touch with all the ministry, I am right in the forefront', but he is clothing himself with all that and it makes him all the more important in his own eyes. It is extraordinary how we can use the terms of the truth to make ourselves more important in our own eyes; so that we really have not got anywhere as to purification; we are, in away, more impervious than ever to the real facts of the position; we are hiding our real state from ourselves. But the Lord is helping Nicodemus. The way that he approached the Lord shows that he was still hiding his state from himself; "Rabbi, we know that thou art come a teacher from God", as much as to say, 'I am quite in line with what is moving'. But he was hiding from himself his own state, and I believe it is possible to do that for many years, and therefore not come to the real conviction that we are serpent-bitten.

A.P.B. You mean there is a certain agony connected with being serpent-bitten, and it is the persons who know something of that agony that reach the conviction that they are really worse than they thought they were, and the agony is caused by what has really caused Christ agony on the cross?

G.R.C. And it is mortal agony. It is a life and death matter, the soul is in mortal agony; it cannot see any way out because of its state; not because of what it has done, but its state. If only we knew more of that mortal anguish which brings us to the point of desperation as at the end of Romans 7, so that we give up all hope in ourselves, and look to another, the Lord Jesus, the One who was lifted up, and look intently, in order to apprehend the meaning of His death. That is the only way that that mortal anguish can be relieved.

P.H.H. Does it emphasise the two positive expressions "born of water" verse 5 and "thus is everyone that is born of the Spirit" verse 8? Those two elements being voiced by the Lord, do they begin to give us a view, and a line of positive comfort, leading to what is substantial?

G.R.C. Do you think that, while from the Divine side it is true we are born of water, and one would not disqualify anyone from that, in whom there is a work of God; yet the thing is worked out in our souls only when we arrive at the brazen serpent?

F.E.S. And is the need of this all the more emphasised, that in the world in which we are, the enemy is using culture and education, to hinder us from seeing what man really is after the flesh?

G.R.C. I believe that is why the Lord is raising the matter of professional associations; because of the tendency to retain the cultivated man. If we retain him in our associations I doubt whether we will ever get free of him in ourselves. What do you say to that?

A.J.G. I think that is right. I was thinking that we need to keep the Lord personally before us as having been crucified, and not even simply the truth as to the brazen serpent, so to speak. I was thinking of Paul, he says "I am crucified with Christ, and no longer live, I, but Christ lives in me"; Galatians 2:20. Is not that a man who is in the good of purification?

G.R.C. I am very glad you have said that. It is Christ Himself, as the One who has been crucified, who is before us.

J.Hr. Do you think, as tracing things to their origin, we have the matter met in verse 3 of Romans 8, "God, having sent his own Son, in likeness of flesh of sin, and for sin, has condemned sin in the flesh"? His own Son!

G.R.C. Beautiful. So in verse 16 of our chapter we have the only-begotten Son. There is the judicial side in verse 14, "the Son of man must be lifted up"; the Son of man, the One who took man's place, He must be

lifted up, just as we must be born anew. The two things go together. But then it immediately says "For God so loved the world", God was the source of this movement, "God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son that whosoever believes on him may not perish, but have life eternal". This seems to show that no one who has not accepted the truth of the death of Christ, in the way we are speaking, really knows the love of God. If we pass by judgment, we pass by the love of God. The Lord says to the Pharisees, "ye ... pass by the judgment and the love of God", Luke 11:42. You cannot have one without the other. If I am retaining a little bit of self and self-importance, then, in that measure, I fail to enjoy and understand the love of God. It is in accepting the complete setting aside of all that I am as after the flesh, and seeing how God has set it aside in the cross of Christ, where His only-begotten Son suffered, that I understand the love of God.

J.W.S. Naaman, having gone down seven times says "Behold, I know that there is no God in all the earth but in Israel", 2 Kings 5:15.

G.R.C. So you can see how in Romans 8 the love of God is developed; the love of God is spoken of in chapter 5, as "shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit" verse 5; and commended to us "in that, we being still sinners, Christ has died for us" verse 8. But having faced the issue of the brazen serpent, Christ crucified, in Romans 7, what a flood there is of God's love in Romans 8. It is a chapter full of the love of God. God sending His own Son, and then "He who, yea, has not spared his own Son but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him grant us all things?"; and "I am persuaded that neither death, nor life ... nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord". The whole chapter is full of the love of God.

P.L. And is the vessel who stands by the cross,

John, contemplatively -- not just relievingly but adoringly you might say, in regard of Christ -- is he the great apostle of love?

G.R.C. John did not pass by judgment, and therefore how fully he enjoyed the love of God!

P.L. The only serpent who had never bitten any one was the serpent of brass.

G.R.C. I would like more help as to why it was a serpent. It says that God has made Him sin for us.

A.J.G. I thought God was tracing things to their source. To be bitten by a serpent is a very serious matter because the poison of the serpent has been injected into the person, and is working in his whole system, eventually resulting in death. Is not that what we have to come to, that what is working in our flesh is of the serpent?

G.R.C. And ends in death. "This body of death".

L.A.C. Is it not explained by the word "likeness" in Romans 8:3?

G.R.C. "In likeness of flesh of sin", that would refer to the fact that He was the Son of man, that He must be man to take our place.

E.I. Is there not a line running right through scripture, starting with the Spirit of God brooding over the waters, and carried through to this chapter, as to the operation of the Spirit in new birth?

G.R.C. Christ in the greatness of His Person is presented to lift us out of ourselves, with a view to purification, but there would be no results without the operation of the Holy Spirit, which, as you say, we can trace right through scripture.

R.C. Does not the Lord give a wonderful presentation of Himself by Himself in verse 13, preceding the sacrificial side in verse 14?

G.R.C. It is very impressive that the Lord should say "no one has gone up into heaven, save he who came down out of heaven, the Son of man who is in heaven", and yet after such a statement He says "thus

must the Son of man be lifted up". Such an One as that!

A.P.B. Would there be, both in verse 13, and in verse 16, which refers to the only begotten Son, a reminder of what had come out in chapter 1, and that such a Person has actually taken that place upon the cross?

G.R.C. I think so. And would it not move us to the depth of our beings if we considered who it is that took our place?

A.J.G. It is God Himself taking up the matter in the Person of the Son.

G.R.C. And to think of the heavenly grace and beauty of the Person, the Son of man who is in heaven; such an One, to be made sin.

G.R.D. Is there something similar in the reference to the Holy Spirit's sovereign action? "The wind blows where it will" seems to give some reference to the greatness of the Person of the Spirit, and then "the Son of man, who is in heaven" brings in the greatness of the Son. Why are there these references both to the Spirit, and the Lord, in the greatness of Their Persons?

G.R.C. Do you think then that would lead us to worship of the Spirit, as well as the Son?

G.R.D. Yes. Both as regards the Spirit and the Lord Himself, this matter is not worked out without the souls of the persons going through it being deeply affected.

G.R.C. We ought to be deeply affected by the Spirit, and His operations. He was brooding over the face of the waters at the beginning, the word suggesting deep feeling there. How much we owe to Him, because as to all that has been wrought out objectively in Christ, and all the glory of His Person, we should be impervious to it all, but for the gracious, loving, sovereign activities of the Holy Spirit.

F.D. Could we bring into the thought of "the Son of man", another Man altogether as so essential in deliverance?

G.R.C. "The Son of man who is in heaven" is a

remarkable statement. It involves the truth of His Person, of course, but how it stresses that He is a Man of another order altogether.

P.H.H. Does it imply His deity? There are the three expressions in verse 13, "no one has gone up into heaven save he who came down out of heaven, the Son of man who is in heaven". That last expression as taken in connection with the first two would imply not only His manhood I suppose, but what lies behind His manhood -- the deity of His Person.

G.R.C. I think so; and yet stressing how beautiful was His manhood here, how heavenly the source; He came down out of heaven, His manhood is entirely out of heaven.

A.J.G. You were remarking yesterday how we get instances in this gospel of the skilful interweaving by the Spirit of the truth of Christ's deity and of His manhood; and this 13th verse is one example of that. We get another in chapter 6: 62, where the Lord says "If then ye see the Son of man ascending up where he was before".

G.R.C. It is most remarkable the way scripture puts the things in juxtaposition, so that we should never lose sight of one side or the other of the truth.

A.P.B. And is not the truth of this kind of life that we need to come into dependence on the Son of man being in heaven?

G.R.C. I am glad you have mentioned that, because in the verse before (verse 12) what the Lord says might read "If I have said the earthlies to you and ye believe not, how if I say the heavenlies to you, will ye believe?" The word there for heavenly things is the same as used in Ephesians for "the heavenlies", and it is used in Hebrews, "the heavenlies themselves with sacrifices better than these" are to be purified, Hebrews 9:23. The Lord has in mind here "the heavenlies". He Himself is the Son of man who is in heaven, and the very purpose in coming was to open up the

heavenlies to us! His operations at this time were not in view of the 'earthlies', they are coming later; there will be those born anew on the earth, according to Ezekiel, to fill out the place of earthly families; but the Lord had in mind the heavenlies; and this teaching lies at the root of our entrance into the heavenlies. Those who have spoken a lot about being born anew, but have never accepted that they had to be, so as to discard that which is born of the flesh, have never touched the heavenlies. They will talk a lot about heaven and going to heaven when you die, but the Lord was bringing this truth in so to purify Nicodemus that he might have present entry into the heavenlies.

P.L. So that the heavenly road into the land is at once opened up after the brazen serpent. After that the children of Israel journeyed, not wandered. They pitched towards the sun-rising, and much water is referred to. Is it like Romans 8?

G.R.C. So that can you not see what a landmark the brazen serpent is? It was from that point on, after looking intently on the brazen serpent, that Israel had, typically, spiritual vision; and furthermore, while the kingdom had been set out objectively in the early part of Numbers, in all the tribes being ordered round the camp (that is a picture of the kingdom of God in its present aspect, God the Centre, and everything arranged around Him), yet the intervening history shows they were not in accord with it, they were rebellious, they had not really entered the kingdom of God. But after the brazen serpent, typically they were in the gain of the kingdom. They were moving in divine order, so that Balaam says "How goodly are thy tents, Jacob, and thy tabernacles, Israel!", Numbers 24:5. He sees them encamped in divine order, he sees the kingdom in its present aspect, the tribes all in their place, and he says "the shout of a king is in his midst", chapter 23: 21. The kingdom is there, and they are moving on to eternal life, in Canaan.

P.H.H. Do these three references therefore to the brazen serpent, namely Romans 8 bearing towards the wilderness, John 3 bearing towards the land, and 2 Corinthians 5 bearing on the great heavenly realm in finality, all show how the truth centring in the brazen serpent should receive more attention with us, and become expanding in its glory?

G.R.C. I think so. We do well to examine the scriptures you have mentioned, and also 1 Corinthians 1, where the word of the cross is so prominent, because they bear on the idea of the heavenlies. Romans 8 shows that, as we face the brazen serpent, we are thoroughly endowed in the Spirit with wealth to fulfil all our responsibilities here, so that nothing need detain us; we are on the road to the heavenlies and we are paying our way in divine currency, so that there is no moral hindrance; and this chapter has in view that we should enter into eternal life. 1 Corinthians has in view that we should, therefore, take up, in the power of these things, the whole matter of the assembly, the assembly as a heavenly vessel here. The tabernacle of witness was patterned on what was in heaven, so that even in the Corinthian setting, viewed as the tabernacle of witness, the assembly stands related to the heavenlies. I might say another thing about those who have not accepted this truth -- they have never touched the assembly. We need to have the whole matter exposed to us, that those who opposed F.E.R. and professed to be standing for the truth of being born anew, and yet had not apprehended its meaning, and thus were carrying along with them that which is born of the flesh, did not fulfil responsibility according to Romans, did not touch eternal life, which they professed to know so much about, and they did not understand the assembly as a heavenly vessel here.

P.L. The deity of the Spirit has been emphasised in chapter 3, verse 8. Would you say that in recent years

the refusal, or reluctance, to give the Holy Spirit divine honours, as of the Deity, would also bear on the brazen serpent not being understood?

G.R.C. Yes I would. If the truth that "we must be born anew" was really understood, we could not fail to worship the Spirit, if we think of His grace, and how, from this standpoint, we owe everything to Him. "That which is born of the flesh is flesh", and that which is born of the flesh is serpent-bitten, nothing good can come of it; but "that which is born of the Spirit is spirit". And then in verse 8 "thus is everyone that is born of the Spirit". How can I help thanking and worshipping the Spirit? I have been born of the Spirit, and, from this standpoint, I owe everything to Him.

A.P.B. After the brazen serpent they sing to the Spirit, asking Him to spring up. So that if we have come to the end of ourselves as the source of anything good, we delight to be able to ask the Spirit to spring up and bring in what is good.

G.R.C. We can claim Him, as it were, to do it. We have been born of Him. If He has operated in us, is He going to fail us in the other matters? Not at all!

-.P. Would you allow that there might be a danger with us of what happened in Hezekiah's reign in 2 Kings 18? The serpent of brass had become an object of worship and he destroyed it. The meaning of it had been lost.

G.R.C. It shows that if the truth is not held in power, the very terms of it become a snare. As we have been saying earlier, we may clothe ourselves with the terms of the truth, and become more self-centred than ever. A man who is clothing himself with the terms of the truth, but not taking it home inwardly, is the kind of man who will leave the path of the testimony eventually, and it is very difficult to get beneath the surface with such a man. We have generations growing up amongst us who from early days know the

terms, but a meeting like this is to exercise us all to get beneath the letter and to understand and accept the truth.

Ques. Does Hebrews 6:4 bear on what you are saying, relative to the new birth? "For it is impossible to renew again to repentance those once enlightened, and who have tasted of the heavenly gift, and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God, and the works of power of the age to come, and have fallen away, crucifying to themselves as they do, the Son of God, and making a show of him".

G.R.C. Those would be persons who had never been born anew; we have been referring to persons who we trust were born anew (we have to leave it with God), but they have come to a point where they have left the path of testimony. We cannot say much about such persons. We would give them credit for having been born anew, but they have never accepted the implications of it; whereas it is essential to accept the implications of it, which are so vast, so complete.

P.L. I wondered whether typically Moses entered in his spirit into the implications of it. He was not told formally by Jehovah to make a serpent of brass, the word "of brass" is added. One wondered if the deep feeling, ministerial character of this ministry of brass, so to speak, (one thinks of J.B.S.'s ministry peculiarly, among many others) would help us to hold the truth, not merely in terms, but as furnishing feelingly and experimentally what would enhance the ministry, and keep it on its living and holy level.

G.R.C. I am sure that is right. The word is "Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole" but "Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole".

A.T.B. Would Paul exemplify what has been said about the brazen serpent, the Spirit's comment is "Saul who also is Paul". He had reached that ground

experimentally. Paul I understand means 'little', that was a good start towards accepting the brazen serpent; he was nothing at all in himself. The Spirit of God says of him in Acts 13:9 "But Saul, who also is Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, fixing his eyes upon him said, O full of all deceit and all craft; son of the devil".

G.R.C. It does not simply say that he was also named Paul, but "Saul, who also is Paul". It refers to a man who had accepted this truth that we are engaged with.

P.H.H. In connection with your remarks about the word of the cross in 1 Corinthians 1, does it release Paul to say so much in the next chapter of that epistle, about the Spirit, speaking, not so much about our receiving the Spirit, but as to what the Spirit does, searching the depths of God? Does that cut away practically the first man from us, but opens up another world in the Spirit, and another power?

G.R.C. It really opens up, (although the Corinthians were not in the gain of it) what you get typically after the brazen serpent, in Numbers; that is, the Spirit was characterising everything. It was a dry and thirsty land that they were in, but it says that they were like "gardens by the river side". There was an abundance of water. "Water shall flow out of his buckets". 1 Corinthians 2 seems to remind us of that.

P.H.H. Yes, and it fits in with the clear sight and view of the assembly now, the vessel where all these things are presented to us so clearly.

R.C. Would the lifting up of the Son of man have in mind that God should Himself be the Centre of every heart and every desire?

G.R.C. "I, if I be lifted up out of the earth, will draw all to me". He draws all to Him on the basis of the complete judgment of sin and the display of God. God's love and glory are in full display.

A.J.G. So that the fact that we are born of the

Spirit shows that God, who is a Spirit, wants us to be in the closest possible affinity to Himself.

E.A.K. Does the fact that it is the initial work of the Spirit in our souls that is engaging us, have a special appeal to our affections in the light of what the Lord Jesus says in John 14 as to the thought of knowing the Spirit, "ye know him, for he ... shall be in you"? Are not our affections being touched in this way by the Spirit Himself, to help us away from mere terms?

G.R.C. I feel it should touch our affections greatly, to think that we have been born of the Spirit. He had to do with us before we knew anything about Him. But the time comes when the Lord says "ye know him".

G.W.B. After a long painful process, Job was brought to abhor himself. He was not of Israel, but I was wondering whether his history would illustrate our side of the matter. In John 1 it says "the life was the light of men". Would the Lord coming in show the need of all those exercises leading to the point of abhorring self?

G.R.C. I think so. It bears on the word, "God so loved the world". It is not Israel here, but God so loved the world. How wonderfully God dealt with Job and he says, "Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes". And I believe that is the place for us all to be, in the light of this chapter. We recognise that that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and from the Divine standpoint, in the death of Christ, that has ended judicially. Dust refers to death, and ashes to the judgment borne.

M.H.T. Is it of interest that Romans 8 begins with the grand principle of "no condemnation", followed by the touching truth that Christ was offered in our stead, and then how the truth is arrived at, at the end of the chapter; "it is God who justifies, who is he that condemns?"; showing that Romans 8 is Psalm-like in structure. He begins with the point that he reaches at the end of the chapter.

L.L. Should this touch our affections, that the Lord would go over all these wonderful things with one man? We speak often about Nicodemus going to Jesus by night, but the Lord met him by night. He was available to him at any time.

G.R.C. So that we can all go away from this meeting with this in our minds, that the Lord will go over this with us, if we give Him space; although we are gathered collectively, it may be that He has been going over it with us in some degree in a personal way, even as we have been sitting together.

L.L. Some of us who have been brought up by Christian parents have a lot to be thankful for, but do you not think that we can take too much for granted, and we have got to reach this each one for himself?

G.R.C. Let us remember what you have said, that the Lord is prepared to go over this again with each one of us personally.

PURIFICATION AND LIFE (4)

John 4:1 - 30, 39, 49 - 54

G.R.C. The Lord is continuing His personal dealings in the three cases in chapters 3 and 4, indicating great variety. Nicodemus was a ruler of the Jews, the woman of Samaria was living in sin, and the courtier was a man moving in court circles; showing the truth of the word "whosoever". "God so loved the world that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whosoever believes on him may not perish, but have life eternal". And the word "whosoever" links up with "the wind blows where it will". It is a question of the sovereign action of the Spirit; He is not restricted by religious, national, or social distinctions, because that which is born of the flesh is flesh; whether in Nicodemus or in the woman or in the courtier, it makes no difference, the flesh will not do for God. Whatever type of flesh it is, the bite of the serpent affects all, and therefore the work of the Spirit is essential, and the "wind blows where it will, and thou hearest its voice, but knowest not whence it comes and where it goes; thus is everyone that is born of the Spirit". The Spirit is operating in all classes of society. So that it is a question of "whosoever believes on him", they may come from every class of society, God is no respecter of persons. It is a question of the sovereign operations of the Spirit, the wind blowing where it listeth -- and we have to be on the look-out for these. The Lord was ready, as it were, for everything, and everyone. He was ready to see Nicodemus in the night, ready to meet the woman when weary with His journey and sitting on the well, ready to meet the courtier without being influenced, or

feeling patronized because a courtier sent to Him. The courtier no doubt expected Him to go down to his house, and perhaps to feel somewhat honoured that a courtier should take note of Him, a prophet of Galilee; but He just said "Go, thy son lives". He was ready for every kind of case.

But the passage we are on, in a way springs out of the close of the previous chapter, where we get the closing testimony of John the baptist, and the heavenlies coming into view in a very choice way. It is not only a matter of eternal life, but the bridegroom and the bride, a most exquisite feature. If we think of Genesis 1 and 2 as giving some idea, in its spiritual application, of eternal life, we see a most exquisite feature in the man and the woman; there are other features, of course, but this is one which would strike us first, and captivate the heart. It is remarkable that John closes his testimony thus. The Lord had said "If I have said the earthly things to you, and ye believe not, how, if I say the heavenly things to you, will ye believe?" And now John is finishing his service with a setting forth of something most choice connected with the heavenlies, "He that has the bride is the bridegroom". You have this great disclosure that the glorious Person of chapter 1, One so ineffably great, takes this place in manhood as the Bridegroom. Surely, the very thought of it would make us all long, in a practical way, to take on the features of the bride! Think of having such a Bridegroom! Then the Lord, in the next chapter, follows it up (if we might so say) in speaking to the woman by saying "the hour is coming and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father". That is the voice of the Bridegroom. If the Bridegroom has His place with us, He will lead us on. But both of these things are in the present, "He that has the bride". It is something connected with the heavenlies at the present time, "He that has the bride is the bridegroom", true in its

fulness in the future, but true now; and then in chapter 4: 23 "the hour is coming and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father". So we are being introduced to the heavenlies, and, connected with that, as it must be, the great economy of God is coming into view. We have spoken of what souls have missed who have never faced the Lord's teaching in chapter 3 in its true meaning, and who have retained and carried with them that which is born of the flesh, which is flesh. We can be sure if we carry that with us it will ruin us in the end. But with such persons, how little entry, if any, have they had into these great matters vitally! The heavenlies can only be entered into by purified persons. And how little they have known of the Bridegroom and the bride, how little they know of the active and practical working of the economy of God! So I think we shall begin to see the immense advantage of making way for the teaching we have had before us, so that we might have an unhindered entry into these great, these superlative things. John the baptist, therefore, closes his ministry as a great example of a purified man. There was a reasoning going on, "a reasoning of the disciples of John with a Jew about purification", showing how we can reason about these things, and know the doctrine of them -- clothe ourselves with knowledge -- and yet retain the flesh untouched. But there was no need to reason about purification, you had only to look at John and you saw it. There was one man standing out as an example of purification, like one of the water pots at this great nuptial scene, the Bridegroom and the bride. He was like a water pot filled to the brim, and therefore his joy was filled full. The water had turned to wine in John and so he says in verse 29 "this my joy then is fulfilled". The joy of his heart was available for others and the joy that was in the heart of John is carried to us today. He was but the friend of the Bridegroom, and yet

what an example for us who through grace form part of the bride, that we should be self-effacing, so that no personality might come between the heart of the bride and the Bridegroom.

E.J.H. It is very great encouragement that in new birth, and the Spirit, there are all the divine potentialities for this to be realised, if we will only make room for what is on the Divine side, in our favour.

G.R.C. It is most encouraging when we see it working out in this woman, because, if it would work out in her, it could in any of us.

E.J.H. I wondered whether that is why the word is changed from 'well' to 'fountain'. The source is usually in a well, but the Lord speaks of a fountain. The source would not be in her; but if one has an inexhaustible source, as in God Himself, you can have a million fountains.

G.R.C. So that the idea of source comes into the matter again, in that expression. We have spoken of source as to our birth, and the source of sin in the serpent; but now we have the living water. Wherever the source of the water is that is supplying a fountain, the fountain will rise to the height of the water from which its source is. And the source is God Himself. "If thou knewest the gift of God". So that we each have a fountain in us, as having received the Spirit, which, if not hindered, will rise up to its source, which is God Himself, and that is the idea in chapter 4.

P.H.H. When you speak of the economy here, is it with the idea that there is a great divine system now, the Father, and the Son, and the Spirit, for the benefit of these persons who are being individually dealt with, and yet being drawn on to what is greater than anything individual? I was thinking of the end of chapter 3. "The Father loves the Son, and has given all things to be in his hand", and then that theme continued in chapter 4: 5, "near to the land which Jacob gave to his son Joseph. Now a fountain of

Jacob's was there".

G.R.C. Exactly. So that chapter 3 closes with what is most choice in connection with the heavenlies. There is "He that has the bride is the bridegroom", the wonderful presentation of Christ as the Bridegroom, and as having the bride, what a glorious conception! And then, verse 35, "The Father loves the Son", the great economy of God, "The Father loves the Son, and has given all things to be in his hand". And as you say, in chapter 4 we see that even the gift of the Holy Spirit is in His hand.

P.L. Would it be that you have the ultimate in divine operations in relation to Christ personally, in the bride; and then, is there a thought in this administration in sonship, of what God is to have in His sons? And would Ephesians abound in that, in regard to the service of God, not only union with Christ, but sonship? Are these two great landmarks in divine purpose? It is the economy, and Divine Persons in it, operating to the satisfaction of Their own love?

G.R.C. What you say is very affecting, Divine Persons in this economy operating for the satisfaction of divine love. What could satisfy divine love but the Bridegroom having the bride, and the Father having worshippers?

R.D. Is there a link between John saying "He that has the bride is the bridegroom", and the Lord's use of the word "Woman" in chapter 4: 21, as following the resolving of the moral issue?

G.R.C. I thought there was. We might say in connection with chapter 3: 29, 'Where is the bride?' "He that has the bride is the bridegroom". 'Where is she?' But the bride was coming into evidence. Two of John's disciples had heard him say "Behold the Lamb of God", and they had followed Jesus. And so we have seen others being drawn to Jesus in chapter 1. But now, the thing was taking more specific shape in this woman; that is, there were features of the bride.

So that we can see that in chapter 4, in principle, the bridegroom was securing the features of the bride; for at the close of the interview, her heart was filled with one Man. She had had dealings with other men, five husbands, and one who was not her husband; but all that was passed for ever. "Come, see a man" -- only one Man!

J.O.T.D. Why does this come to light in Samaria? Does it link with what is brought to light in the time of recovery, after all the departure has come in, and the mixture is fully rooted in the sphere of the Lord's name? This choice matter was now being brought out in its pristine glory, but after all the degradation and mixture had been thoroughly developed.

G.R.C. It is evident that the way the Lord is presented in this gospel is for our day particularly. It is to bring us out into separation and personal purification, so that the features of the bride might be in evidence at the close.

P.L. That would be Philadelphia, after all the sorrow and unfaithfulness of the public vessel -- "they ... shall know that I have loved thee", Revelation 3:9.

P.H.H. Would it also bear on Paul's ministry to the Corinthians, where he says in 2 Corinthians 11:2, "For I am jealous as to you with a jealousy which is of God; for I have espoused you unto one man, to present you a chaste virgin to Christ"?

G.R.C. I think the presentation of the Lord in this gospel has recovered us to that thought; so that through grace, it is our concern at this present time, that local companies should be espoused to one Man. Paul says, "I have espoused you", that was that company in Corinth. And that should be in our minds in connection with each one of our local companies. Persons have purified themselves, in separating from what is around, and we should help one another as to inward purification, so that each local company in these last days, however few in number, might be

espoused to one Man and presented a chaste virgin to Christ.

P.L. And would that work out on the Ephesian line, "Grace with all them that love our Lord Jesus Christ in incorruption". Is that the bridal thought?

G.R.C. What a word that is! It touches motives. What are really our motives in going on with things? What are our motives in service? How this tests us! And yet, if we touch this question of purification we have got to get down to those inward matters.

R.C. Is it encouraging that despite the mixed conditions that have come in, Divine Persons continue to proceed with Their own thoughts at Their own level? I am thinking of verse 5, "near to the land which Jacob gave to his son Joseph". That reaches far back, but it is carried through now.

G.R.C. The woman says in verse 12, "Art thou greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well?", so it is traced back to the giver, "and drank of it himself". The Lord had said to the woman "Give me to drink". That is the initial thing. But the woman goes back to Jacob, the giver of the well, who would represent God, and says that he drank of it himself. And that is what is in mind in this chapter; the Lord is going to receive drink, but the Father, too, the One who gave the well, is to receive drink, and so are His sons and His cattle. The gift of the Spirit as the fountain has great results.

A.G.B. Will the return flow come through our knowledge of what the Lord would unfold, as speaking of "the gift of God, and who it is that says to thee, Give me to drink", "The woman says, Sir, give me this water". Does the return flow go back by way of our knowing, and asking, and drinking?

G.R.C. I think that is the only way. We must drink, that is our side. He gives, but we must drink. And then, as drinking, it becomes in us "a fountain". It is when it has become in us a fountain that there is

really the return flow, in bridal affection for Christ, and responsive love to the Father.

A.G.B. I was thinking of 'asking' as over against the sovereign operations of the Spirit. There comes a point in this chapter where everything depends on the asking, and the drinking, on our side.

G.R.C. If we have really arrived at the truth of chapter 3, we shall ask. The Spirit will be an absolute necessity to us. Romans 7 shows that the work of the Spirit in us, as born of the Spirit, is not sufficient. The work of the Spirit in us gives us right desires, but no power to carry them out. The soul in Romans 7 is in a state of misery, and captivity to the law of sin in his members. So that the work of the Spirit in us, if we make way for it, and go through those exercises, leads us to cry "who shall deliver me?" And we arrive at the two sides of the deliverance. The Son of man lifted up is the way God has met the matter judicially; we see that the condemnation with which we are condemning ourselves has been met and borne by Christ. But on the other hand, it is "in order that the righteous requirement of the law should be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to flesh but according to Spirit". That is to say, God having condemned sin in the flesh in Christ on the cross, the Spirit is available for the asking. "You would have asked of him", the Lord said. A soul that is born of the Spirit "hungers and thirsts after righteousness". That is one of the things it thirsts after. The soul in Romans 7 is wanting to do right, but evil is present with him. He is thirsting to do right. Whatever the thirst may be, it is quenched in the gift of the Spirit.

E.J.H. Has not J.T. said about Romans 7, that when you have solved the problem, and reached the end of the chapter, the Spirit is standing by, so to speak, saying 'I will now take you on, and carry you through in regard to every right desire'. So the Spirit is mentioned 18 times in Romans 8.

E.I. Is there moral progress in the way water is brought forward in the two chapters; in chapter 3, moral cleansing, there was "much water", and then in this chapter, is it more water in the way of refreshment, satisfaction, and life?

G.R.C. I think both aspects of the water have to do with purification. This side stresses satisfaction, but it is also purification. This woman's inward parts were purified by the gift of the living water. Living or running water is brought in in the Old Testament in connection with matters of cleansing, as with the leper, for instance. And in Numbers 19, the ashes were placed in a vessel with running water. "Born of water and of the Spirit", would involve the word of the cross brought livingly home to the soul by the Spirit. I think the idea of being born of water and of the Spirit links on with the thought of deliverance.

A.J.G. And does not that deliverance take form by the Spirit connecting the heart with the Man, that is Christ. It is important to keep that in mind, otherwise we begin to get occupied with the Spirit's operations in us.

G.R.C. I am sure that is right. "If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is". The woman is coming into the range of the economy. This is how a soul first has to do, in a practical way, with the operations of the economy of God. The first Person that the soul consciously comes in touch with is the Lord Jesus. The Spirit has operated, perhaps, long before; but the soul does not know the Spirit at that stage. The Lord Jesus is presented in the gospel that souls might come into living touch with Him. And so He says to her, "If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is". The first thing that begins to dawn on the soul is who Jesus is. And the gospel is presented that souls might come to some apprehension of who Jesus is. Then He says, "thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water". So the second touch is with

the Spirit. You come into touch with the Lord Jesus, but then, as obeying Him, you normally receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

P.L. This woman comes into the economy in contact with Christ in relation to personal exercises and responsibility; while when you come to the man in John 9, and his contact with Christ, and worshipping Him as the Son of God, the basis is laid in his soul for being in the economy collectively with his brethren, the sheep -- he is one of them.

P.H.H. Would you say more about the water? I am thinking now of Ephesians 5, where Christ is already before the soul, in Paul's ministry, "Christ also loved the assembly, and has delivered himself up for it", then he goes on to say, "purifying it by the washing of water by the word, that he might present the assembly to himself glorious". (Chapter 5: 26 and 27.) The question that has been in my mind for some time is a kind of double view of the water in John (if that is correct). First of all in and behind both views there is the Spirit Himself; but in some cases, would it be right to say it is the death of Christ that is in view, surely being ministered to us by the Spirit, on the basis of John's later word, "this is he that came by water and blood" and so on, 1 John 5:6. Then in the gospel, in chapter 19: 34, "immediately there came out blood and water". Would it be right to carry that thought of the water forward into this assembly setting in Ephesians 5, where the Lord uses His own service in ministry, and dealings, with the assembly as such, in order to bring about complete purity in the assembly, everything being in keeping with His own death? My main question is in regard of how the water stands in Ephesians 5.

G.R.C. I am not sure that I can answer your main question, but I think your remarks in regard to the water in John are thoroughly right. The water that flowed from the side of Christ would be the water that

is in mind I would think in chapter 3. And yet, as you say, born of water and of the Spirit implies that the meaning of the water in cleansing power, as linked with the death of Christ, is brought in power into the soul by the Spirit. In chapter 4, the Spirit springing up within us does not cease to bring that side home. We cannot shut that side out of chapter 4. He springs up in us as a source of refreshment, but ever keeping us in a fresh sense of what the death of Christ means. But then the main point is the positive side, that He springs up within us, that is, He would fill every compartment of our being. And I think that is the idea of drinking; we open all our inwards to the Spirit, we let Him have full control of our inwards. The Lord gives, but we drink; and a thirsty person loves to feel the water entering the inwards; and we should open all our inwards to the Spirit; not holding back any reserves, so that every part of our being is filled and energised by the Spirit, who springs up, and therefore would lead us in chastity, in response to Christ, and also in response to the Father.

P.B. Does this have the effect of regulating our affections?

G.R.C. He would fill our inward parts, and lead all our affections in chastity to Christ, the Bridegroom, and through Him to the Father.

A.B. Is that why the Lord does not immediately answer her question when she asks for the water, in verse 15, but says "Go, call thy husband, and come here"?

G.R.C. It was evident that there were things to be judged in her soul. She could not properly drink until that matter was settled, there were compartments of her being that were closed to God; she was living a life without God, she was living in sin. And all that had to be exposed with a view to her drinking freely of this water, so that every compartment of her being would be filled with the living water.

A.B. Had the Lord in mind to gain her affections in raising the question, so that she says "Come, see a man"; One who had gained her heart?

G.R.C. Had He not also in mind the necessity of raising the question, because this matter must come into the light.

P.L. If He did not raise it then, it would have to be raised when He was seated on the great white throne.

A.T.B. I believe many of us have never been really clear as to who the Lord was referring to when He said "If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is". The Person was there. In chapter 3, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son", I mean what a Giver God is; He gave His Son. Primarily, is He referring to that, or the gift of the Spirit?

G.R.C. I would not like to limit, but I would think primarily the gift of the Spirit is in mind here. Jesus says to her "Give me to drink". So that drink is the subject of the conversation; and He says "If thou knewest the gift of God". But then, it must include the gift of the only-begotten Son, for the Spirit would not be available otherwise. But I think what is primarily in view here is the Spirit. And then He says "who it is", the One who was speaking was the only-begotten Son.

A.T.B. J.N.D. has said, if you would have a Giver, you must come to God. Man has nothing to give. What a God we have!

G.R.C. The thought of God as a Giver is to come into our souls, and in the preaching that is in mind, that men should get an impression of God as the great Giver. But then, they must in the first instance, having got that impression, come in touch with the One who says "who it is". We present the Person, we present Him in His manhood, and in His deity, in the gospel, "Who it is", so that souls might learn who He is, and

what His place is in the economy. "The Father loves the Son, and has given all things to be in his hand". And if you asked of Him, He would give you. The Father is the great Giver in the economy, and He has put everything in the hands of the Son with a view to dispensing to such a person as this. So He says "he would have given thee".

A.P.A. At the end of chapter 3 it says "For God gives not the Spirit by measure". Would the opening of our inwards be our answer to that?

G.R.C. Yes. The only measure is the size of the vessel. The thing is to open our inwards, so that we are completely filled.

L.A.C. Would you say something further as to the thought of 'drinking' in verse 12? We can understand the thought of Jacob drinking, and perhaps even his sons. Would you enlarge further as to the thought of his cattle?

G.R.C. I think the cattle refer to our spiritual wealth, what is available as offerings to God. Everything in the way of our satisfaction, and in the way of Divine satisfaction, depends on the presence of the Holy Spirit in the saints. We have satisfaction, we never thirst for ever; but then, there is drink for the Lord Jesus, there is the response in bridal affection, and the Father, the great Giver, the Head of the economy, drinks of this well Himself, and His sons, and His cattle. I would think we could apply it to what is in the saints in the way of spiritual wealth. It all thrives through the gift of the Spirit.

L.G.B. And all on the line of life. The cattle would be live-stock.

G.R.C. Yes. "Offerings to God are in abundance brought".

A.J.G. Is it not important to realise that the gift of the Holy Spirit is the characteristic blessing of Christianity? Peter announced it on the day of Pentecost, "Repent, and be baptised, each one of you,

in the name of Jesus Christ, for remission of sins, and ye will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit", Acts 2:38, as though that was the great thing that God had in mind to give. All the great thoughts of God whether it be Christ and the assembly, or the Father and sons, or the worship of God; for all these to be entered upon in any degree of reality and power by the saints, we need the Holy Spirit. The gift of the Holy Spirit is for bringing in all that is characteristic of Christianity, in contrast with the other dispensations.

G.R.C. So that this chapter would again cause our hearts to well out in worship to the Spirit.

G.W.B. "Whosoever drinks ... shall never thirst for ever". Does it involve that we are characteristically opening our inwards, continuously?

G.R.C. Very good. On the Lord's side it is a gift, "he would have given thee living water", but our side is the drinking, "whosoever drinks". We have to open our inwards to the Spirit, and see that there is no compartment reserved. This woman had had five husbands, what compartments she had had! And there was one she was living with who was not her husband. If that had not been all brought out and judged, how could she have drunk of this water, what room would there have been for the Spirit, in her inward parts? We need to make room for the Spirit.

F.E.S. Would you say that purification is essential for enjoyment of and availability to the Spirit?

G.R.C. There is the initial purification, like the woman judging her course, and receiving the Lord into her affections by the Spirit, but then as we go on drinking, giving place to the Spirit, this pure fountain springing up, keeps us pure all along the line.

L.L. There were some compartments in Nicodemus that were reserved, but there seems a total collapse in this woman.

G.R.C. It refers to the land which Jacob gave to his son Joseph. Here was some of the land, as it were,

coming to light. There was the land which Jacob gave to his son Joseph, and a fountain was there; and that is the position in this world. There are those the Father has given to the Son, and what makes the position so potential is the gift of the Spirit, that there is a fountain in that property which the Father has given to the Son.

C.J.H.D. Was that land not secured on the basis of conflict? Would the reference to the taking of it out of the hands of the Amorite, by "the sword", indicate the direct matter of conflict in the death of Christ, but then "the bow" is also used, and is this woman not coming within range, as it were, that more territory might be secured from a distance?

G.R.C. I would think that. The Amorite was an inhabitant of the land; it shows that the heavenlies are in mind. It is heavenly territory on earth, taken out of the hand of the Amorite; not out of the hand of the Egyptian, nor even out of the hand of the Moabite, but out of the hand of the Amorite. There is heavenly territory on earth; and it consists of those whom the Father has given to the Son. The potentiality of the territory is that a fountain is there.

F.H. Why is the word changed from "fountain"? She speaks of "a well".

G.R.C. I think in a way the woman herself becomes the well. The well is the containing thing, it is the fountain that fills the well. In natural things, to have a well you must have a fountain in it; and the level of the well will be the level of the place from which the fountain, which is in the well, draws its source. But in our case, it is more than the figure of a well; we become vessels, but the fountain that is in us has its source in God himself. So that there is a fountain in us with its source in God, and it rises to God. That is how I understand the fountain.

P.H.H. Is there therefore an upward trend in this section of the scripture? First of all in the exercise of the woman, and what we might call her desire for the

Spirit, then what you say about the fountain rising to the level of its own source, and then the way the Lord takes up her word "worship". Is that going still higher on this upward trend?

G.R.C. It is. But in moving on we have not got an answer to your question on Ephesians 5. Although the setting in John 4 was quite different, was the Lord dealing with this woman with a view to bridal features coming out, and would His words to her be in view of her purification? Had not the Lord's words a washing effect upon her?

P.H.H. Might we ask Mr. G. about Ephesians 5?

A.J.G. I do not know that one can say much, but one thought the word was bringing home to us, in an intelligible way, what the full import of the death of Christ, where His love was expressed, is. The washing of water by the word in Ephesians 5 is the full thought of bathing. It is not like feet-washing, it is the full thought. It is the removal completely of the man, in order that we might intelligently enter into what we are by the work of God, as suitable to be united to Christ.

G.R.C. That is very helpful. We ought to keep in mind that it is the full thought of bathing there. Some have likened it to the bridal bath that was customary in the East.

A.J.G. So that the Lord would bring it home to us, perhaps freshly every first day of the week, so that we might be free in our spirits to enter into union without any hindrance.

G.R.C. That is very fine. He would speak to us as we approach the Lord's day, in order that we might be in the gain of our complete cleansing from the man that would hinder, and, instead be marked by the fragrance of His words, because it is the spoken word in that passage. His words of love leave their fragrance upon the vessel, as in the case of the spouse in the Song of Songs.

E.A.E. It says in Psalm 147:18, "He sendeth his word, and melteth them; he causeth his wind to blow -- the waters flow". Do not those three expressions come out in what you are drawing our attention to now in these chapters in John, with regard to purification, and the effect? Might this reference to "word" help us in view of cleansing, because Psalm 119:9 says "Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his path? by giving heed thereto according to thy word"?

G.R.C. It shows what an important place the word has in cleansing, the word applied in the power of the Spirit. And the personal word of Christ, His personal service, in Ephesians 5, is specially affecting. Here, in another setting, we have the personal service of Christ to this woman -- His own words; how cleansing they were!

C.W.O'L.M. In Ephesians 5:26 it speaks about cleansing "it", the assembly. Is not that a little different from the working in our inwards?

G.R.C. Certainly that passage has its own distinctiveness. It is the assembly there viewed as a whole and it is bathing. No doubt it takes place in detail, as we go along; but the full picture is presented there, "that he might present the assembly to himself glorious, having no spot or wrinkle, or any such things".

A.P.A. Is not the final touch in the Lord's word here in verse 26? It is literally "I am who speaks with thee".

G.R.C. No wonder it broke her down. She had nothing more to say; the disciples came, and the woman left her water pot. Her soul was filled at this point. She had said "I know that Messias is coming who is called Christ; when he comes he will tell us all things". That is a feature of the Christ, He tells all things in connection with the service of God, and about everything else too. Solomon would be in mind

in this title, the Christ. What marked Solomon was that he spoke of everything, from the cedar unto the hyssop that grows out of the wall. He spoke about cattle and creeping things; there was nothing, in that sense, outside of the range of Solomon. Everything that related to God and His service, and had any bearing on it, Solomon could speak about. And that was undoubtedly in the woman's mind. The Lord had told her something about divine worship and service, but she says, When the Christ comes, He will tell us everything. What an impression she had got of the greatness of the Christ! And here was the Person, He had come, the "I am" was there, who had come to fill out this great office of the Christ. What could He not tell her? But then, when she goes to the men of the city, she goes as a true witness, her heart full of Christ, a worshipper, "Come, see a man who told me all things I had ever done". What a powerful witness she was, her heart full of Christ, emptied of everything else! "Is not he the Christ?", is not a question of doubt, not at all. But she does not begin to tell them what He has said about this mountain and Jerusalem; she knows just what to say in evangelising and that is, "He told me all things I had ever done". Had she begun to speak to them about worship they would have been antagonised, but the impression she had got of Him was that He would tell her all things. There was nothing that He could not tell her, as to the greatest things of God; but in the gospel message, she says "he told me all things I had ever done". That shows how we need wisdom in the gospel.

P.L. Is she taking a woman's place in the economy suitably, she is not asserting, she is saying, "is not he the Christ?" Is there a large field for sisters in that way?

G.R.C. The feminine word is used in Psalm 69:11, and in J.N.D.'s French translation, he actually uses the

word "women", "great the multitude of the women that published it". The Lord gave the word (and the Lord gave the word here to the woman) but great were the multitude of the women that published it. And sisters have great scope, I believe, in publishing the word. They have personal contacts with local people that often the brothers have not. They have also opportunity to do kind deeds among neighbours, doing good to all men. What opportunities for testimony; and what a powerful testimony if a sister can speak like this woman, in the spirit of it, "Come, see a man who told me all things I had ever done".

J.O.T.D. Should we not be on the line of securing persons for the assembly?

G.R.C. I am sure we should. And that takes us back to what we have passed over. The woman says "Our fathers worshipped in this mountain, and ye say that in Jerusalem is the place where one must worship. Jesus says to her, Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when ye shall neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem worship the Father". It is wonderful how He is leading her into the truth of the economy. She has had a touch with Him, and if we apply it to a soul nowadays, she would have had a touch with the Spirit; and now the Lord speaks to her of the Father. I do not think the Lord had spoken to anyone of the Father before this; He had spoken of "My Father's house", but He begins to speak of the Father. Whatever must the woman have thought, when He said "shall neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem worship the Father". She had never heard God called Father before. "Ye worship ye know not what; we worship what we know, for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour is coming and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth; for also the Father seeks such as his worshippers". What a wonderful presentation of the Father to this woman! How it must have captivated

her heart, the thought of true worshippers worshipping the Father, and the Father seeking such as His worshippers! What an eye-opener to this woman! And what a complete purification of her mind in connection with religious systems! What her Lord says here, in a few words, would free the minds of the saints from all religious systems; it is not a question of this mountain, nor Jerusalem; it is a question of worshipping the Father in spirit and truth, which again goes back to inward purification.

P.H.H. Is that why the word spirit is used two or three times here? It says in verse 23 "worship the Father in spirit and truth", then "God is a spirit, and they who worship him must worship him in spirit and truth". Is the Lord driving at this inward thought?

G.R.C. Yes, and it really settles the whole matter of 2 Timothy days for us. It is remarkable how the Lord, in a few words, can put things which, in apostolic doctrine, rightly takes quite a long discourse to unfold. It is not a question of here or there, not a question of any human system, because all these human systems are linked with "that which is born of the flesh"; and that has all been set aside, as we have seen in the previous chapter. All human systems are cleared from the mind and now you come to the real thing -- worshipping the Father in spirit and truth, and that involves purified persons.

E.I. Do we get the idea of drinking in Genesis 24, and the thought of the digging of the wells in chapter 26?

G.R.C. It all bears on what we are saying, Genesis 24 brings in something that we have not got here, that is, that the Spirit Himself has a portion. The servant asks for a sip.

A.J.G. As the attractiveness of the suggestion of worshipping the Father in spirit and truth came home to the woman, she would be prepared for all the exposure, so that every element of darkness in her

should be out and judged, and she would be free to worship, would she not?

G.R.C. That is wonderful, because what she had done merited judgment; but then the Lord says in this gospel, "the Father judges no one". She must have had an impression of grace when He brought in the word "Father". How it would set her conscience at rest!

A.J.G. In principle she passed the judgment seat of Christ.

A.P.B. In John's gospel, the character of life that is in view really has its origin in the wonderful economy in which the Father loves the Son; and the affections seen between God as Father, and Christ as Man, in sonship, give character to everything, including the worship.

G.R.C. I think "The Father loves the Son" is the key to things in the economy. It has been rightly said, the Father is the great Originator and Director of everything in the economy, and I think the motive of it all is His love for the Son.

A.P.B. I was thinking of "God so loved the world", but then, in the actual working of it out, it is "The Father loves the Son", is it not?

G.R.C. "God so loved the world" is the great testimony, it is the display of God in His nature and character. Nothing could be greater than the display of God's nature and character. What God ever was and is has now come into display; God is light and God is love. He is righteous and holy. Every feature of His character is in radiant display in Christ. But then though all is in display, there would not be the slightest response in man if left to himself. Man is serpent-bitten, and that radiant glory could shine, and there would be no response from a single member of mankind. So you must have the economy. You must have the operations of the Spirit, and of the Son, and of the Father. The Father is the Head of the economy,

and is the Source of these activities; He sends the Son and sends the Spirit, and the great motive is His love for the Son. The economy means that there shall be results, and that there shall be souls brought into the gain of divine love in such a manner that they can be set down in the presence of the display of God in His nature and character, and be perfectly at home there. But it is the economy, and the operations of the economy that bring that about in the economy.

P.L. So that in Hebrews, to deliver the saints from lifeless religion, the economy is emphasised at the beginning. The apostle and the high priest, and then the great high-light, so to speak of the economy, the bringing of many sons to glory, and "both he that sanctifies and those sanctified are all of one", and the declaration of "thy name to my brethren" and "in the midst of the assembly will I sing thy praises". Have you, in the presence of the derelict religion, so to speak, in the beginning of Hebrews, God setting out that the economy is going through to the satisfaction of Divine love in the greatness of the Persons who compose it?

G.R.C. This chapter confirms it, for the worship "now is". Think of this going on at the end of the dispensation, as you say, amongst derelict religion. It is going on now, this great service, the worship of the Father, through the operations of this great economy of love. And souls are set down in the presence of Him who is the effulgence of God's glory, and the expression of His substance, to worship God in spirit and truth. That effulgence could have shone for ever, and there would be no results, but the activities of the Persons of the Godhead in the economy have brought about results, and men are there, in the presence of the effulgence, and at rest.

A.T.B. We get the light shining in the darkness in chapter 1, but there was no ability whatever for man to enter into it, until there was movement from the

Divine side.

G.R.C. So as you say, chapter 1 sets out the position generally. In human affairs, the moment you bring light into a dark room, the darkness goes; but the darkness was such, that though the light came, it did not alter the darkness; it shows the awful character of what is called "the darkness". It needed fresh operations on the part of the Father, and the Son, and the Spirit, fresh sovereign operations, to effect anything.

A.W.G.T. It says in Ephesians 5:8, "for ye were once darkness, but now light in the Lord". The fruit of the light comes out in the woman, who was once darkness, but now becomes light.

Rem. We have in Revelation 21:25, that "night shall not be there".

G.R.C. The darkness is gone. What a wonderful thing!

M.H.T. In the language of Hebrews, does the woman really become a purged worshipper, having no more conscience of sins?

G.R.C. I am sure she does.

Ques. Verse 22 says "ye worship ye know not what", is that worshipping in darkness? But the verse continues "we worship what we know", is that worshipping in purity?

G.R.C. Yes. Through this great economy of love we have been brought into the closest conceivable relations with God, and we can say "we worship what we know".

Now the last section completes the subject of these chapters. The Lord had attended the marriage of Cana of Galilee, and now He comes again to Cana of Galilee, and we have a household set up now in the light of what has preceded, and that, I think, is what the Lord is seeking. We have spoken of the importance of households, and it is of the very first importance that, in these last days, there should be

households in the full light of the economy, and the full light of what God is securing for Himself.

P.H.H. Are you stressing that in the first sign it was a marriage, which brings before us that behind everything is Christ and the assembly, and then the second sign, it is a house where the father and son is being stressed?

G.R.C. Yes. So it is a house as a 'going concern', patterned after God's house. This is a house as a 'going concern' -- what an acquisition to the testimony. This man begins as a courtier, and addresses the Lord as a courtier, in verse 49; but in verse 50 he is called a man, "And the man believed the word which Jesus said to him"; he is getting purified; and finally, in verse 53, he is called the father. And the child becomes a son. So there is development, and purification enters into the whole matter. There is the purifying word of the Lord. The courtier would have expected Him to go down to his house, as he asked Him to, but the Lord tests him; He says, "Go". He takes no account of his courtiership, He just says "Go, thy son lives". And it says of him "And the man believed the word which Jesus said to him, and went his way". He has dropped his courtiership, he is just the man who believed the word of Jesus. He went down to his house, and then it says "The father therefore knew that it was in that hour in which Jesus said to him, thy son lives; and he believed, himself and his whole house". That is a house as a going concern in the testimony, purified.

P.B. He believed today, and he had confirmation tomorrow. It says in verse 52 "Yesterday at the seventh hour". Are not we often tested as to that, the genuineness of our believing?

G.R.C. Yes. We are tested in household conditions often, we are tested by our children, but it is all to bring about a house established as a going concern in the testimony. These exercises are to purify us householdly. Our child may sicken spiritually, and be

in danger of dying, but it is to help to purify the house, that it might be a going concern in the testimony.

L.A.C. Are we to understand that this truth of purification rids us of rivalry? There are these rival religious systems, "this mountain", and "Jerusalem". Do we finish on the understanding that there is to be no rival to Christ? He becomes the Supreme One in our hearts?

G.R.C. That is very fine. It would end household rivalry. The man comes to the Lord as a courtier, but finally he is a father.

P.L. With a living son! Will he now operate in this wonderful economy under the hand of the One to whom the Father has committed all things? It is a fine word for the living continuation of things in affection, "thy son". I was thinking of Timothy. What a household Paul had in that way for the testimony!

PURIFICATION AND LIFE (5)

John 8:54 - 59; 9: 1 - 17,24 - 41; John 10:1 - 3, 27 - 30.

G.R.C. In this section beginning with chapter 8, things become clearly defined as regards associations. We have seen in chapter 3 how things become clearly defined inwardly in the believer, "that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit"; and the writings of John indicate that there is no idea in God's mind of a mixture. We are to be helped to come to a judgment so that we do not allow a mixture in ourselves. That bears on what has occupied us already, the water pots being filled, and the Spirit filling the believer as a fountain. But then John indicates in his epistle that there is no idea of a mixture between the children of God and the children of the devil. He traces things to their source in that respect also. He says in chapter 3, "he that practises righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that practices sin is of the devil", verse 8; and then in verse 10, "In this are manifest the children of God and the children of the devil". And the Lord Jesus, chapter 8: 44, traces things to their source, "Ye are of the devil, as your father, and ye desire to do the lusts of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning". So that there is no idea of a mixture, the two generations are incompatible. John puts things in this abstract and telling way; things are traced to their source; persons of a certain character --those who practise righteousness -- are children of God, and those that do not practise righteousness are not of God; their origin is traced back. So that this section of the gospel is very searching. It brings up, one would

judge, the whole question of "what participation is there between righteousness and lawlessness? or what fellowship of light with darkness? and what consent of Christ with Beliar, or what part for a believer along with an unbeliever?", 2 Corinthians 6:15. The Lord Jesus was speaking in the temple, a wonderful thing that He could stand in the temple and say, "I am the light of the world" -- not simply the light of Israel, but the light of the world. Divine light in its fulness was shining in the temple, and we see the sharp division between light and darkness. The light was shining in the One who could say, among other things, "a man who has spoken the truth to you", verse 40. The Lord was there, a perfect Man, a Man who spoke the truth; He stresses His manhood, and His perfection in manhood. But then, the chapter closed with the assertion of His deity. So that the greatest light was shining in this chapter. There was the light of perfect manhood, teaching in the treasury, as it says in verse 20, "These words spoke he in the treasury, teaching in the temple". How rich the treasury was at that moment. Jesus was there, everything precious to God found in His Person! So that there was the light of perfection in Man, but also the light of God shining; God was in His temple. Not only a perfect Man was there, but God was there. "Before Abraham was, I am". The One who is "I am" had come to His temple, and the glory was filling the temple, yet the darkness was such that there was no eye to take it in.

The blind man is a sign, bearing on chapter 8. The Lord in grace performs this sign, if, by any means, the Pharisees might be saved. But He shows them by the sign that what hindered their vision was their state, and that the way to get vision, to see the glory that was shining in the temple, was to go and wash. The spittle, and the mud which he made, and put on the man's eyes, refer back to the ministry of the previous chapter of the presentation in incarnation of the

perfect manhood, and yet the deity, of Christ, "Before Abraham was, I am", chapter 8: 58. As J.T. said, the mud, in a way, made the man blinder than ever, and that is the effect on the natural mind of the presentation of the perfect manhood and yet the deity of Christ; it makes men blinder than ever, more opposed than ever. So the Lord was, as it were, putting the mud on the eyes of the Pharisees in His ministry. The blind man was a sign of what the Lord had been doing. But if only they would wash, they would see.

A.J.G. So that there is the combination of the works of God -- it says "that the works of God should be manifested in him" -- but also of the moral element involved in the man being required to obey the word of the Lord, "Go wash".

G.R.C. The works of God become manifested in a person who becomes obedient to divine command.

P.B. Has the word 'sent' any reference to Jesus as the sent One?

G.R.C. I think so. It is stressed all through this gospel. In chapter 8 He says "He that has sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, because I do always the things that are pleasing to him", verse 29. He is there as the sent One, a Man sent from God, a Man who had spoken the truth to them; and how easy that should make obedience to us; the fact that "though he were Son, he learned obedience from the things which he suffered", Hebrews 5:8. From the time He took the body prepared for Him He was entirely at the disposal of His God and Father. The coming into that body was His own act, "Lo I come". But having taken the body prepared He was here as the One under command; and that especially came to light after His baptism when He was sent out in service.

J.Hs. Does the feature of obedience in the blind man evidence the undoing of the works of the devil?

G.R.C. It is really the primary step; the glad tidings are presented for the obedience of faith among

all the nations, and then the truth of the mystery was made known, according to Romans 16:26, by command of the eternal God, for obedience of faith to all the nations. So that the whole truth is to be received on the principle of the obedience of faith.

L.A.C. Is it not remarkable that in the book of Nehemiah, where the enemy attempted to bring in the greatest possible form of admixture, we find that the walls of the pool of Siloam are repaired, chapter 3: 15?

G.R.C. In that chapter it speaks of the fountain-gate, and then the wall of the pool Shelah (or Siloam), and then in verse 16, "the pool that was made". I think these things have a remarkable connection; there was the fountain-gate, and we have already spoken of the fountain. But then there was the pool of Siloam, which was, we understand, of moving water, not a stagnant pool; but then there was also the pool that was made. I believe the order in which things are put there, the pool of Siloam coming before the pool that was made, shows the great importance of being in the current of what the Spirit is saying at any given time. We are apt to go back to the pool that was made, which I think refers to past ministry; there is a vast pool that has been made, of very great value; but then, past ministry, as we know, can even be used, if taken out of its setting, to negate what the Spirit is saying at any given time. The only way to get the real gain of past ministry is to be in the current of what the Spirit is saying now.

L.A.C. The waters of Shiloah are said to flow softly -- Isaiah 8:6 -- but they were refused.

G.R.C. That is it; and that is what was happening with the Pharisees. How soft and gentle the ministry of the Lord had been, how gracious! "Grace and truth subsists through Jesus Christ". In His words the waters of Shiloah, as we may say, flowed softly, but they were rejected, and His words in John 8 were, therefore, severe.

P.H.H. Does John speak uncompromisingly of certain elements like light and darkness, life and death; but does he also add, specially in the gospel, persons who are livingly in the flow of the Spirit? May we not perhaps rest in words about what is needed amongst us, whereas the persons would give examples of those who act on the ministry, and therefore themselves become a living testimony?

G.R.C. So that the signs today are in persons; this blind man was a sign. If the sign had been accepted it would have meant salvation to those the Lord had been speaking so faithfully to. But then, as you say, there are living signs today. There are some persons who say they cannot see certain things; they are blind, and cannot see what is current. They profess to accept past ministry, but they cannot see what is current. It is always the enemy's effort to blind people to what is current. But there are those who are seeing, and how do they see? By way of purification.

P.H.H. It says in Isaiah again, "Behold, I and the children that Jehovah hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel, from Jehovah of hosts", chapter 8: 18. Is that where the testimony is?

G.R.C. What a comfort it is that in all the conflicts there have been such; there have been persons we can fix our eyes on as models who help us into the truth.

--.H. Does Peter touch on this matter of obedience when he says "Having purified your souls by obedience to the truth", 1 Peter 1:22.

G.R.C. Quite so. We can see how this man's soul was purified. What a pure vessel this blind man became!

A.P.A. J.N.D. says as to the end of chapter 8, 'Oh Jesus, Jesus, what sort of subjection is this, that we owe to Thee?'

G.R.C. How easy subjection is when we get a view

of the greatness of the Person! How could we be other than subject to Him who could say "Before Abraham was, I am"? You may remember too, that J.N.D., in that article, breaks out into a doxology, 'Oh Jesus, Jesus, God Most High'.

L.L. It would draw out our affection that He should so present Himself as a Man?

G.R.C. And we have to remember that He is a Man. In Philippians 2 it says "taking his place in the likeness of men; and having been found in figure as a man", verses 7 and 8. We need to see that scripture is very careful; the Holy Spirit is very careful in His statements. Scripture makes it very clear that Jesus is a Man, a perfect Man, a glorious Man, the Man Christ Jesus; but it does not use the expression, which might be misconstrued, that 'Jesus became a man'. That expression might imply that He had left the state of Deity, and simply become a Man. Scripture says that He became flesh, and that implies that His Person never changed. There was no leaving of the state of Deity, but He became flesh; He entered another condition. But having become flesh, such a Person as He must be absolutely perfect in the condition into which He came; and so we see in Him real and perfect Manhood.

E.A.K. Is that involved in the truth that the Lord Jesus was sent on earth? It is not correct that He was sent from heaven.

G.R.C. That enters into this matter. Scripture says that Christ Jesus came into the world, and then, in coming, it says, "Wherefore coming into the world he says, Sacrifice and offering thou willedst not; but thou hast prepared me a body", Hebrews 10:5. The Person was unchanged, but He accepted the body prepared, and came into human conditions, and both down here, and now as a glorified Man, He was and is perfect, the perfect Man. But He has never left the state of Deity, He has never ceased to be Who He is.

A.P.A. Does not the word "subsisting in the form of God", Philippians 2:6, go through in that way?

G.R.C. It says "subsisting in the form of God". J.T. pointed out that scripture does not say He left the form of God. It says, "subsisting in the form of God, did not esteem it an object of rapine to be on an equality with God", and we see that in this gospel. Here He was, a Man; He said in chapter 8: 40 "a man who has spoken the truth to you", but, at the end He said "Before Abraham was, I am". That is, He did not esteem it an object of rapine to be on an equality with God, and that marks the whole of this gospel. More than once the opposers attacked Him because they said He was making Himself equal with God. And it was not wrong for Him to do that, because He never ceased to be what He always was. But then it goes on to say in Philippians 2:7, "taking his place in the likeness of men; and having been found in figure as a man". One is only pointing this out that we might seek to think in terms of scripture, and to speak in terms of scripture.

A.W.G.T. Might it help to refer to verse 7 of Philippians 2, where it says "but emptied himself, taking a bondman's form"? I think some have had difficulty about the simultaneous action that is referred to there, and perhaps a word would help.

G.R.C. We are in deep waters, and I cannot say much about it. I think the emptying of Himself may refer to the glory that belongs to Deity, because He asks the Father, in this gospel, to glorify Him with the glory which He had along with Himself before the world was. He was here in humiliation.

A.J.G. It is a question of learning to think in terms of scripture, and express ourselves in terms of scripture. It is quite clear, I think, that emptying Himself, whatever that involves, consisted in taking the bondman's form. That is, it was simultaneous.

G.R.C. That is really the wonder of the matter, the

bondman's form, is it not? Because manhood in itself does not necessarily imply bondman's form. But coming to do God's will, and to be under command in every way, He took the bondman's form.

Rem. J.N.D.'s note says "emptied himself by taking".

A.P.A. Does it correspond with the fine flour, that there was nothing, that we call 'self' there?

G.R.C. It is perfection, perfect humanity, and mingled with oil, wholly energised by the Spirit. Wonderful contemplation, the perfect humanity of Christ!

E.I. J.N.D. said in Notes and Comments, that wherever you get the manhood of Jesus in scripture, His Person is always guarded.

G.R.C. So far as I have seen in scripture, it is most carefully guarded. The Spirit is most careful as to the birth of Christ. In Matthew 1:20, the neuter is used "that which is begotten in her", not 'he who'. And the same in Luke 1:35, "the holy thing". How carefully, at every point, the Person of Christ is guarded in scripture!

P.H.H. So that we are always reminded that the deity of Christ is there, although it may not be expressed in a definite phrase. Here in this chapter -- John 8 -- it is, as you remark, the Man there, but He says Himself "I am". Is not that the way things are put to help our minds? We are limited, we cannot think too much about the manhood of Jesus, and the deity of Jesus at the same time; but they are always very close together. Would the word "subsisting" in Philippians 2 help us? It is not simply 'being', being might be accidental in the proper use of the word, but "subsisting" is not accidental, it is meant to convey something substantial and constant.

G.R.C. I thought that. One only brings these things forward so that we might exercise priestly care, as far as we are able, (the Spirit would help us) in

thinking and speaking of Christ; and in these passages the incarnation is brought before us in a remarkable way. In chapter 8: 6, "Jesus having stooped down, wrote with his finger on the ground". I think that is usually connected with His incarnation, and what a stoop it was -- this permanent writing! What has come out in the perfect humanity of Christ is permanent; it is not now a question of the law of Moses, although that stands in its own place, but it is what has been written in the perfect Manhood of Jesus.

E.J.H. In chapter 18: 5 the Lord Himself says "Whom seek ye?" And they declared they were seeking a man, "Jesus the Nazaraean". And He said "I am". Twice over He said "I am", and having said that, He allows Himself to be taken.

C.J.H.D. Do we not need to be in the highway of the fuller's field, according to Isaiah 7:3 before we can rightly consider the statement in verse 14, "the virgin shall conceive", and then the title Immanuel given to Him. Is not there the purifying effect of the fuller's field to be laid hold of by us?

G.R.C. And would it not be working out in these chapters, particularly in connection with the blind man?

C.J.H.D. They really refused the waters of Shiloah in chapter 8 of Isaiah because they had not faced the highway in the fuller's field in chapter 7.

A.G.B. It says in verse 2, "He answered and said, A man called Jesus made mud and anointed mine eyes, and said to me, Go to Siloam and wash; and having gone and washed, I saw". Is this a matter of light as to Christ, as to His Manhood and Deity?

G.R.C. We ought to look further at the way the incarnation is referred to in these scriptures. We have already remarked on the first stooping in verse 6. The second stooping and writing on the ground, no doubt refers to His death. But then you get a more forceful view of the incarnation in what the Lord does in

chapter 9. It says "Having said these things, he spat on the ground, and made mud of the spittle, and put the mud as ointment, on his eyes".

J.O.T.D. Is it to be noted that the Spirit, in describing the incident, says "he put mud as ointment", and the man says "A man called Jesus made mud and anointed mine eyes"? I am thinking of the anointing as suggesting that the man has got some sense of the majesty and dignity that has entered into this wonderful matter. If a Person beyond comprehension has taken such a lowly form, as may be implied in the expression "mud", it has reached him in this gracious and dignified form as "ointment", and he speaks of it as anointing.

G.R.C. You are thinking then that this refers to Jesus in His humiliation here.

J.O.T.D. I thought the mud would mean that. But the man catches up some idea, and some sense of the glory of the One that has come into that condition. He speaks of anointing.

A.J.G. Does that connect at all with the thought of Siloam -- being sent? The man had to go as being sent, but I wondered whether he had to come to an apprehension of Jesus as sent.

G.R.C. I think the mud would suggest that, Jesus in humiliation here. John quotes Isaiah in chapter 12: 38, "Lord, who hath believed our report?" referring to Jesus in humiliation, but it says in verse 41 "These things said Esaias because he saw his glory". Esaias was one whose eyes were opened to behold His glory. But for others it was just mud, as it were, which only made, if anything, their blindness worse -- Jesus in humiliation here.

W.S.S. The Lord says to Laodicea in Revelation 3:18 "I counsel thee to buy of me ... eye-salve that thou mayest see". I was thinking of what you said as to the blind man, bearing on chapter 8 and the Pharisees.

G.R.C. The ministry of the Lord in chapter 8 is

really illustrated in what He did here. In chapter 8 He was applying the mud to the eyes of the religious leaders; He presented Himself in all His perfection as a lowly Man here, the sent One, doing always the things that pleased His Father, but they saw no beauty in Him, as Isaiah said, that they should desire Him. To them it would be nothing more than mud, as we may say. They saw no beauty in the Man, and yet 'His path of true perfection was light on all around', if only they could have seen it. But then, at the close, He brings in the truth of His Person. His manhood took its character from the fact that the One who was there before them was "I am"; and that is an astounding fact. The Man that men did not appreciate at all -- they despised Him -- was the One who was the incarnate "I am". That is like the spittle mixed with the mud.

P.H.H. The man said, "having gone and washed, I saw", verse 11. But in verse 15, "I washed, and I see". Is it not a further work of God being manifested, the man had got on more?

G.R.C. His eyes being opened had in view that he should apprehend Jesus as He is, as at the end of the chapter, "dost thou believe on the Son of God?" And that title of Son of God involves His deity. As the Son of God He quickens. John 5:25.

A.P.B. We can only rightly understand the humiliation of the Lord Jesus in manhood in the light of His death. It was only because of our state that He needed to be humiliated at all, and that really went on to its final conclusion in death.

G.R.C. I think that is where the acknowledgment of the need of washing comes in. If a man naturally was blind a doctor would send him to an eye specialist. It would be regarded as very absurd to send him to wash; and that is how men regard it. Men do not realise that the fact that they do not see things is because of their state. It is not that the eyes need

operating on, it is the state that needs dealing with. When you think of what it meant to the blind man to go, what obedience meant to him, a blind man, finding his way to the pool of Siloam; how foolish he would appear in the eyes of those who might accost him on the way. What was he going to do? He was going to wash. They would say, 'That will not do your blindness any good'. But then, that was just the thing that was needed; purification was needed, purification of his whole outlook, as we may say, on current ministry what the Lord had been saying.

W.S.S. Is it in your mind that the words "I see" should mark us characteristically?

G.R.C. Yes, he gradually sees more and more. First of all he says "He is a prophet", and then he goes on to say that He is of God. He says to the Pharisees "we know that God does not hear sinners; but if any one be God-fearing and do his will, him he hears". Then further, "If this man were not of God he would be able to do nothing". So he is arriving at things, he is learning to distinguish and in the course of it he is getting free from all his old associations. That is what marks a man who is getting light from God, he is getting free from all his old associations by the faithfulness of his testimony.

A.J.G. It is just at that point that their animosity stirred to the full, when he shows them that he is testing things by reference to whether they are of God or not.

P.L. And "One thing I know, that, being blind before, now I see" -- is that the ground he takes testimonially, that he witnesses as having seen; and is he not confirmed in the sight of what is current, you might say, till he reaches the climax worshipfully? The Lord says when He challenges Him, "Thou hast both seen him, and he that speaks with thee is he. And he said, I believe, Lord: and he did him homage". Would this sight, as in the stream of the softly flowing waters

of current ministry, result for us, in the climax of all obedience, the spirit of worship?

G.R.C. Very good. So that he is really moving on in the current of the waters of Shiloah, and his apprehension is getting greater. If we are obedient and move in the current of the Spirit, our apprehension will become greater and greater until we get a clear view of the glory of the Son of God.

A.T.B. He went and washed, and came seeing. As he went on the great range of things that Jesus had brought in became more and more real to him. Can we not prove the truth of these scriptures ourselves? If we are subject to the word, and purification takes place, the Spirit would not keep anything back from us, would He?

G.R.C. That is what one has in mind -- that we should prove these things for ourselves. This man proves that there is no mixture between light and darkness. He had got light, and he was true to his light, and it would not mix with the darkness; his natural relatives did not help him; and into whatever circle he came, because he had light, there was no affinity. "What fellowship of light with darkness: and what consent of Christ with Beliar, or what part for a believer along with an unbeliever?", 2 Corinthians 6:14 - 15. If we wash in the pool of Siloam, and are moving along in the current of what the Spirit is giving, we have only to be true to the light, to find that light and darkness do not mix. I believe the most effective way of separation is to bear witness. One wonders whether if we faithfully bore witness to what we have seen and known, we should experience more what this man experienced; people would not want us in their associations. We are to separate from associations, but then people would not want us, they would be glad to see us go. As to this man, they cast him out.

J.Hs. You are thinking of the way he got clear of his neighbours, and the Jews, and the Pharisees, and

his parents. He gets gradually clear from every link.

G.R.C. He got clear of his neighbours, as you say, and then the Pharisees; and we have to remember that he had been brought up to revere the Pharisees. It shows how his eyes were opened. The Pharisees were seeking to judge him, but he judged the Pharisees, he had a judgment of the whole religious system. He became separate from his neighbours, separate from the whole religious system, and from the leaders that he had been brought up to revere, and even from his parents. His parents wanted nothing to do with him, because they feared the Jews. So here was a man in true separation.

J.Hs. And simply on the basis of being true to the work of God in him.

--.S. He refers to the will of God; not only being God-fearing, but doing God's will, "if anyone be God-fearing and do his will". Is not that a remarkable testimony?

G.R.C. I would say that he was able to bear witness to Jesus as the One who did God's will, because he was set for it now himself. This man had nothing else before him; a man called Jesus had opened his eyes, and his one concern was to be true to what he saw and what he knew. He knew, at this point, that a man called Jesus had opened his eyes, and he knew that though he was once blind, now he could see. He was gradually developing a right judgment of everything around him. He had had a wrong judgment of things, but now he is getting a right judgment; everything was becoming clear to him, and he was evidently set to go right through with no compromise.

L.A.C. In chapter 4 the question is asked, "Art thou greater than our father Jacob", and in chapter 8 "Art thou greater than our father Abraham", and in this chapter Moses is brought forward by the religious system as a rival. Do we find this man reaching Christ

at last, as the unrivalled One in his eyes?

G.R.C. That is very fine. He is greater than Jacob, greater than Abraham, and greater than Moses.

J.A.P. The Lord says in verse 28, "When ye shall have lifted up the Son of man, then ye shall know that I am (he)". Does not that have a bearing on making the mud?

G.R.C. Yes. And it is in the lifting up of the Son of man that the means of cleansing has come in. There would be no way for us to wash but for the precious death of Christ.

F.E.S. Is washing more than just getting clear of associations?

G.R.C. I think it is the recognition that our whole state is wrong. I think first of all, the washing here was not cleansing him from his associations, it was what was applied to himself, to his own eyes. I think it is a question of recognising that our whole state is wrong, and that until we judge ourselves, and are prepared to obey the Lord's words, to obey the gospel, as we may say, we shall never see. All through John it is a question of we ourselves being purified in every way; and here it is a question of obedience, and learning to rely entirely on the Spirit as to our thoughts of Christ, especially the Person of Christ. We cannot afford to let our natural minds work for a moment. The natural mind is just blindness on this question.

J.O.T.D. John uses the title "unction" in his first epistle, referring to our need of the Spirit, so that our thoughts of Christ should be right and true.

F.E.S. And does the thought of washing involve the mind very particularly, our thoughts, not only of Christ, but our own importance, and how we tend to figure in everything?

G.R.C. That is the point in this aspect of cleansing; it is a question of judging the natural mind. It was the pride of the natural religious mind which made the Pharisees blind. They said, "we see". That is the

pride of the human mind; it takes the ground of seeing, and of being able to judge even God Himself. The human mind would put itself, in that way, above God.

A.W.G.T. You have referred to state. J.T. said that it was not the sin that outlawed a man or a woman in an assembly issue, but their state. That is manifested in the fact that they will not hear the assembly. Matthew 18:17. (In our day, it is saints meeting in the light of the truth of the assembly. Ed.)

G.R.C. And what lies at the bottom of that is that they say "We see". They take the ground of seeing, they know better than the assembly. The Lord says "now ye say, We see, your sin remains". It is the pride of the natural mind, specially the religious mind, working in divine things, which says 'We see, we have encompassed the truth, we are accepting nothing further'.

P.H.H. The reaction of this man is immediate, especially when it comes to the question raised by the Lord about believing on the Son of God. He has one question to be solved, "Who is he, Lord, that I may believe on him?" Does that show his state? He is a believing man characteristically, and then the Lord says "Thou hast both seen him, and he that speaks with thee is he, And he said, I believe, Lord; and he did him homage". Is the road quite clear now for the service of God -- the worship of the Lord Jesus, and what else may be involved?

G.R.C. Yes, a dependent obedient man, one who has judged himself, and his own mind's activities, is characteristically a seeing man; so that in what is presented to him, however great and unexpected it may be, he is ready; and that is the attitude we all would seek to be in, is it not, to be ready for what is presented?

P.H.H. He has judged himself, and in his testimony, he has really pronounced judgment on others,

the Pharisees; and, in the end, he qualifies as a worshipper.

G.R.C. "He did him homage".

P.L. And does he not form constitutionally what is to be characteristic of the company? His position here is pivotal. In this section the Spirit passes from the individual setting, to the collective, the flock being in mind in the next chapter. Does this man basically set up the two great thoughts of testimony in holy boldness, and the worship of God? Is that not the great thought to which we are collectively called -- a united front in the testimony.

G.R.C. That is what I have in mind as to this section dealing with associations. There is the sharp division in chapter 8 of light and darkness. The Lord makes the sharp division, "Ye are of the devil, as your father", there is to be no mixture, and it works out in chapter 9, that the man proves that there is no fellowship between light and darkness. Darkness will not have anything to do with him. And that will be so with us, if we are true to the light. Darkness will have nothing to do with us, we shall be cast out. But then, in this mixed state of affairs what we have around us, and the generally tolerant attitude, men may be prepared to go on with us, and so the call comes "Come out from the midst of them". There is really no fellowship, there is no affinity, between light and darkness; this man finds himself outside of every association in which he had lived: he is alone, and the Son of God finds him, and says "dost thou believe on the Son of God?" And he says "Lord, I believe" and he does Him homage. Then the Lord immediately brings in the flock (because there should not be a break in the chapters, as we know), after speaking to the Pharisees, and exposing them because of their pride. They were saying "we see", whereas the blind man was the only one amongst them that did see. So the Lord speaks of the flock. Now the flock introduces

our true associations; the question is have we any collective associations outside of the flock? I do not know of any that God recognises. There is one flock and one Shepherd. All outside the flock is darkness. Outside the flock there is unrighteousness, outside the flock there is Beliar, outside the flock, unbelievers. The man is brought into associations of life in the flock, one flock and one Shepherd, and the Shepherd is the Son of God. And He and His Father are one. What a wonderful thing to be in those associations! And from the flock develops the family, in chapter 11, and from the family develops the body and the assembly (although the terms are not mentioned) in chapter 13 onwards. So that our whole associations of life are developed from this point onwards. But we are not available for them, unless we have gone through experiences similar to those of the man in chapter 9.

E.A.E. Does Saul himself go through that experience in Acts 9, meeting Jesus on the Damascus road, and then the opening of his eyes, and the effect of that is that he preaches Jesus, that He is the Son of God?

G.R.C. The word according to Acts 22:16 is "And now why lingerest thou? Arise and get baptised and have thy sins washed away". There is no doubt Paul was true to his baptism, there is no doubt he found himself outside of every circle in which he had previously moved, there was no affinity now; he was a man who saw, and he had seen the Son of God.

G.R.D. Would you say more as to the man in chapter 9 getting clear of these associations because of his confessing Jesus in the various ways that he apprehended Him? It seems to me that that lies at the root of what is so vital for us, in being free from so many things in the world.

G.R.C. Do you not think that the only right way to get free from associations is to confess the Lord, to

say clearly what we see and what we know, without any equivocation? And while we do it with a view to purifying ourselves, and separating from them, the effect of our saying those things will mean they do not want us. There will not be any difficulty about it, they will not want to retain us. In principle they will cast us out.

P.L. So that "he brought them forth ... and there was not one feeble among their tribes", Psalm 105:37. And Egypt was well rid of them.

G.R.D. Through the help we have had recently as to the greatness of Divine Persons, and particularly the greatness of Christ and the Spirit, in Their mediatorial service here, is it quite understandable that things that we have gone on with in the past we now view differently, and should be exercised as to getting clear?

G.R.C. I believe we have hardly grasped the fact of God dwelling among us. We have thought of manifestations and visitations; and we have them, of course, in the way the Lord comes to us at the Supper. But have we grasped the great truth "I will dwell among them, and walk among them; and I will be their God, and they shall be to me a people"? 2 Corinthians 6:16. The affections of God are so intense for the men who belong to Him, that He dwells among us now, in these mixed conditions, not waiting for eternity; He is among us all the time. Do you not think the Spirit would help us to grasp this truth, for I believe it is of all importance? God is dwelling permanently among us, God, the great and eternal God. That is the point in this gospel, "Where abidest thou?" The Spirit, and the Son, and the Father -- God, known, and dwelling among us. It is on that basis that the exhortation for purification and separation is made. God is among us. Oh, if only that laid hold of our hearts, how could we contemplate any mixture? How could we contemplate anything that is contrary to the holiness of God?

There is no thought in John's writings of a mixture. Light and darkness are as separate as they can be. The children of God and the children of the devil are as separate as they can be. Why do we mix them?

A.H.G. And in one sense, there is nothing new in that, because God divided the light from the darkness at the very outset. He called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. He stamped the proper character upon each at the very beginning.

G.R.C. He did. Israel was not to mix things. In garments, there was not to be two kinds of material; in sowing the field, there was not to be two kinds of seed; and the ox and the ass were never to be yoked together. We must not say, 'It is all right to be yoked with the ass until he misbehaves himself'. That is not what scripture says. It says you do not yoke them together at all.

G.W.B. Is what you have just said supported by chapter 14: 23, "My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our abode with him"?

G.R.C. "If anyone love me, he will keep my word". It is a very illuminating scripture, because that chapter shows that the Spirit abides with us forever. Even if we grieve Him He does not leave us; and how much we grieve Him! But we shall not know the presence of the Son and the Father if the Spirit is grieved. But if we have the Lord's commandments and keep them, and if we love Him and keep His word, He says "my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our abode with him". That is, you have the Father, the Son and the Spirit, abiding with such an one.

--.P. Do you think, if we are to be kept in the current of the ministry, we have to be prepared for the position suggested in Ezekiel 47, where it says "And he brought me out by the way of the gate northward, and led me round, outside, unto the gate ... that looketh eastward". Then we have the river, then it

opens out the measurement of the river. There is the willingness to face the northward position first, then eastward.

G.R.C. The north would mean suffering, and this man was suffering. It is not a small matter to be cast out of every circle you have lived in.

L.A.C. J.B.S. refers to this man as being brought out of the solitude of night. Leviticus 21:18 shows that a blind man is prohibited from approach to present the bread of his God. This man sees, is cast out, and becomes a worshipper.

G.R.C. So I think we might link up the woman of chapter 8 with the man of chapter 9. The Lord says to both "Go". He says to the woman "Go and sin no more". That is characteristic of this gospel and of the epistle. We are to sin no more. There is no need to, "every one begotten of God does not sin", 1 John 5:18. There is no need to sin if we learn to distinguish between what is born of the flesh and what is born of the Spirit, and to rely upon the indwelling Spirit. But then He says to this man "Go, wash". On this line we come into the associations of life. The blind man, seeing things clearly, comes into new associations of life, and how wealthy they are!

PURIFICATION AND LIFE (6)

John 21:1 - 25

G.R.C. This chapter deals with recovery, and I think one thing to learn from it is that, in days of recovery, God would secure 'great fishes'. Numbers may not be great, but it is a question of quality. And I would say that every person who has faced and gone through the exercise of purification, both within and without, would be included amongst these great fishes. So that in 2 Timothy days, God has in mind the quality of the persons secured through the very conditions which they have to face, God using these conditions to deepen the work in themselves, and to deepen their appreciation of the greatness and glory of Christ and of God. I think it would help us to look upon one another too, in this light, that those we are privileged to walk with, and thus feed upon in the way of fellowship, are great fishes; humble persons, it may be, as far as this world is concerned, but if they face the exercises that have been before us in these meetings, in God's mind they are great fishes. And what comes to light at the end is that the net is strong enough. There is no idea of the net breaking. The truth as to the assembly goes through intact, and these great fishes are held relative to that. Peter is used to drag the net to land, in this incident, according to verse 11, but he himself becomes an outstanding example of a great fish; a man who was a leader, appointed to be so, but who had failed in denying the Lord, and failed here too in independent leadership, leading others with him. But the Lord deals with him in this chapter, so that he becomes a thoroughly purified man. I think, therefore, we might, for our

purpose today, apply to our own times the 14th verse, "This is already the third time that Jesus had been manifested to the disciples, being risen from among the dead"; and I think we may regard the first two manifestations as foundational, the first one relative to the assembly and the highest level of the truth, the second to bring about what the Lord is seeking from each one of us personally, our personal appreciation of Him, "My Lord and my God". I am not now applying that to Israel dispensationally, but in the light of chapter 20: 24, where it says that Thomas was one of the twelve. That means it is a foundational matter, and enters, in the way we are thinking now, into our dispensation. There is the assembly manifestation, and a personal manifestation, although the others were there; but it was particularly personal to Thomas, and we need to have our personal dealings with, and appreciation of, the Lord. All that is foundational and belongs to the beginning of things, but continues, of course. But then this third time, as we are applying it, would refer specially to the time of the end, to days of recovery, in a collective sense. That is to say, these fish were all in the net, and they were great. And so it says in verse 4, "early morn already breaking, Jesus stood on the shore". It would touch our hearts to think of that surely, "early morn already breaking", the morning just at hand, and the Lord coming in in this way in tender affection, so that there might be this recovery at the dawn of the morning.

--.P. Is this third manifestation of Himself to preserve the life mentioned in the last verse of chapter 20?

G.R.C. It would have in mind that, in these last days, we should enjoy life in His name. 2 Timothy speaks of life; the apostle says he was the "apostle of Jesus Christ by God's will, according to promise of life, the life which is in Christ Jesus".

E.J.H. John takes particular delight in calling attention to Peter in regard to his various adjustments.

He speaks more about Peter, especially on the quality side, than the other gospel writers.

G.R.C. That is very encouraging, because in actuality Peter was the leader in the Acts, even as the Lord had intended. So that the dispensation began with a man leading who had been recovered; who had known what it was to deny the Lord, and then to fail in leadership. But it began with a man, who, through those very experiences, was thoroughly purified.

E.J.H. He has to be adjusted here, in that he says "I go to fish". But is not the thought in John's gospel, being sent, as in John 9 and John 20? In leadership he said "I am going", and others go with him, but he was not sent.

G.R.C. That is very important. He does not say 'I have been sent to fish'; he had had no word from the Lord. Whereas this gospel presents the Sent One; and shows that blessing comes on the line of obedience. And, as you say, the Lord says in chapter 20: 21, "as the Father sent me forth, I also send you"; and Peter was there when that was said. It shows that, if we have not faced the exercises that we have before us, the best of us can be led away. That which is born of the flesh is flesh. It may have seemed to Peter that some move was necessary at this time -- the Lord was absent -- and the Spirit had not come. Left to his own resources, he said, "I go", but he had no word to go. How easily we can move like that!

P.H.H. Does it suggest also the great matter of influence; Peter, perhaps, not reckoning what an influence he would have in moving in an independent direction. Is that something we have had impressed upon us during the last two or three years?

G.R.C. Very much so. The more influential a man is, the more damage he does, if he goes on an independent line. The line he is on may seem quite right to the natural mind.

L.L. There are five named persons, and two

un-named ones.

G.R.C. Quite so. He influenced other leaders, Thomas, Nathanael, well-known men, and even the sons of Zebedee. Think of men like that coming under a wrong lead! Who would have thought that John would have been among them? It just shows what can happen. J.N.D. said that the greater a man's piety, the more damage he can do if he is on the wrong side in a matter of the truth.

W.S.S. Do you think the ever present tendency to revert to what is Jewish might be suggested in these names? Three names mentioned, Peter and Thomas and Nathanael were all distinctly connected with what is Jewish in the gospel, and I wondered if the lead Peter was giving might suggest that there always is a tendency to revert to what is Jewish and legal?

G.R.C. We have to watch the Galatian element all the time, in the way we apply the truth. We may have right principles, but apply them in a legal and harsh way, and an independent way. We have to wait for the camp of God to move. It is not for any locality to establish a set of rules of its own.

P.H.H. Did you say we have to wait for the camp of God? What do you mean by that reference, please?

G.R.C. In Numbers it is called four camps, but it is also called "the camp". So the four would suggest the universality of it, but it is the great camp where God and His dwelling place is the centre. We sing "Our God the Centre is", as a future idea, but Numbers shows it is also a present idea. God is the Centre of His people at the present time, for He is dwelling among them, and walking among them. And He does not depute to others responsibility to direct as to when the camp should move. It is entirely His own prerogative. Moses did not decide when the camp should move; the cloud moved, God Himself took the initiative. The priests, who were to be on the qui vive, were to sound the alarm, blow the trumpets,

so that every eye should be on the cloud, and all should realise that the cloud was moving; but God Himself took the initiative. Here Peter is taking the initiative, "I go to fish", he says.

A.J.G. Is this all leading up to "Follow thou me"? Would that link with chapter 10 of this gospel, the shepherd's voice for the whole flock, and they follow?

G.R.C. I wondered whether that word was the final touch of Peter's purification in this chapter. How much adjustment he needed, and if he needed it, how much more do we need it. After all the Lord's dealings with him he turned round and said "Lord, and what of this man?" It just shows what our hearts are like. So the Lord's last words, in this gospel are, "Follow thou me". That would be His final word to every one of us. It is a final touch which, if heeded, completes the purification.

E.A.K. The Lord's parental relation with His disciples is so touchingly brought into this matter.

G.R.C. That is so remarkable. When all had gone astray, the Lord did not act harshly, as we are so prone to do with one another, but came to them and said, "Children"; and the note says the word expresses peculiar affection. "Children, have ye anything to eat?" A true parent, however much the children have gone astray, would never let them starve. But on these independent lines we have nothing to eat. Eating here would involve real fellowship. In Leviticus 11 we are told the animals that can be fed upon, and those that may not be fed upon. There are the clean fishes (we are dealing with fishes in this chapter) and it is a question of whom we can feed upon. We feed upon those we walk with, we cannot help it. That is why we should not walk with people who are unclean. But on the line of independency there is no real fellowship. If we go in advance of the movement of the camp, there is no real fellowship in that, there is no food in it.

G.R.D. What would save us from independency

is what we have in chapter 10, "My sheep hear my voice". Does that not have a universal bearing today? If we are all hearkening to the one voice, the Spirit's voice in the ministry, we really are thinking one thing.

G.R.C. I am sure. So He led His people like a flock by the hand of Moses and Aaron. Aaron the priest would see to it that when the cloud moved, all the brethren knew it.

J.O.T.D. Would the references in John to the early morning fit in with current concern about the Lord's day? Chapter 8: 2, "And early in the morning he came again into the temple"; and it was early in the morning when His sufferings began, as depicted in this gospel, and He was apprehended. And in chapter 20: 1, "Mary of Magdala comes in early morn to the tomb", and here again, "And early morn already breaking".

G.R.C. All that is very interesting.

A.G.B. Does not the movement suggest that there would be a constant expectancy that the testimony would move; the eye on the cloud, and the ear awaiting the sound of the trumpet, suggesting the sensibilities that would always be on the alert for some fresh movement on the part of God?

G.R.C. I think so. And if we are in the sense of being sent, we are here under direction; we do not know when the next command may come. And the most imperative command they had, in the camp of old, was God Himself moving. There were God's commandments, which were to regulate them at all times, but what kept them on the alert would be the fact that God might move at any time, and they were to move at the command of Jehovah. How did Jehovah command them? By moving Himself. It was not for them to be left behind. What you say is of much importance, that we should have our eyes open, and our ears; and, as priests, we should be concerned that the alarm is heard in every part of the

camp. There have been times of conflict in the past, when the trumpet may not have been sounded so universally as it might have been. That may be partly the reason for such heavy losses.

P.H.H. Verse 4 says "Jesus stood on the shore; the disciples however did not know that it was Jesus". Was that one of the penalties, so to speak, of this false leadership, that they did not recognise the Lord when He was there? He was not a very great distance off, apparently just about a hundred yards. So that their sensibilities were very much blunted.

G.R.C. Do you not think that is the first thing that happens when we embark on anything independent? We lose our vision, and the alertness of our hearing. All our sensibilities, indeed, become weakened.

A.J.G. Without holiness none shall see the Lord.

A.H.G. Is it important that He manifested Himself? You have been bringing before us the glory of His Person. "After these things Jesus manifested himself". Is that the point where recovery begins?

G.R.C. I am sure it is. And how affecting this manifestation was, that He should come and stand on the shore, and not a word of rebuke to begin with, but just "Children, have ye anything to eat?". They knew they had nothing to eat, they knew they were on starvation diet on the course they were on. Then, as we know, when they do arrive at the shore, Jesus Himself had prepared the repast. It is very affecting, and I think we can see that it is the way the Lord has brought about recovery in these days -- not by chiding, but by bringing us back to the consciousness of family affection.

E.J.H. Is not independency disruptive of family feelings?

G.R.C. It certainly is.

Ques. Would you say something as to the difference in the way in which John is referred to in verse 2, and verse 7? In verse 2 he is just one of the sons of Zebedee.

G.R.C. In verse 7 "That disciple therefore whom Jesus loved says to Peter, It is the Lord". It may be he is described thus in verse 7 because his sensibilities had become alert; he was the first one recovered.

W.S.S. J.T. used to draw attention to the fact that the Lord said "Come and dine" -- a very dignified suggestion -- before He adjusts them.

G.R.C. That is very touching too. There was no probing of Peter until they had dined.

W.S.S. The Lord brought fish, and then He says "Bring of the fishes which ye have now taken". There must be something special in that.

G.R.C. Their recovery was brought about in the first instance by obedience, although they did not recognise Him. He said to them "Cast the net at the right side of the ship and ye will find". Though they were still blind as to Himself, they obey what He says.

E.I. Would there be any link between this chapter and chapter 6, where the feeding comes in, and quite a crowd of them move off, and the Lord raises the question as to whether they would go away, and Peter says "To whom shall we go"?

G.R.C. That seems to be somewhat different. The point here seems to be that they obeyed the word, although they had not recognised Jesus. They must have felt the fatherly touch, though they did not recognise yet that it was He. "Children, have ye anything to eat?". And I think many of us have been affected by things in this way. A fatherly touch has come to us, it was from the Lord, but it came through those He used; and we have not realised, perhaps, in a direct way, that it was the Lord; but there has been the fatherly touch, a sense of care for our souls, and it has led us to be prepared to give heed to the word. And so they acted, they cast the net at the right side of the ship, "and could no longer draw it from the multitude of fishes". Now there are results, it is no longer a question of "have ye anything to eat?" They

had got a multitude of fishes. You can see how this happened in the revival. The persons separating, in the early days especially, must have wondered whom they could have fellowship with; but the net has enclosed a multitude of fishes. It may not be many in actual number, a hundred and fifty-three. But they are those available to walk with. The net has enclosed a multitude of fishes, so that we are not left alone, we follow righteousness, faith, love and peace with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart, and they are wonderful persons. Persons who have really passed through the exercises we have had before us are wonderful persons, they are great fishes. It is good to be in their company, and it is real food. We have to take account of the idea of feeding on one another. Fellowship is a matter of feeding. We can feed on the clean fishes.

A.T.B. Would "the early morn already breaking", and "Jesus stood on the shore" have something to do with this? I take it the morn is in relation to that glorious Person coming in.

G.R.C. The sense that the coming of the Lord publicly is imminent was a main-spring in the present revival. The morn is about to break. But then Jesus Himself comes; and John is the first one who recognises Him -- the disciple that Jesus loved. He says "It is the Lord". It is a great thing when we recognise His present manifestations.

J.Hgs. Does the reference to "This is already the third time" suggest that the present period is characterised by the Lord's manifestations?

G.R.C. The Lord does indicate in chapter 14 that He manifests Himself. It is a characteristic feature of the whole period -- the whole period has been sustained by manifestations of the Lord. But these three are outstanding, two of them being foundational, which we should take full account of; and then this one being on the line of recovery.

G.R.D. Would you say that the Lord, in His dealings with us, on the line of recovery, has always in view to bring the assembly into prominence? I was thinking particularly of the days we are in, and the peculiar way assembly light and affections have been recovered. Whatever there may be in the way of departure through leaders or others, the line the Lord takes, in recovery, is to really make the assembly shine, and the personnel of the assembly come into greater prominence.

G.R.C. So that the net here did not break. Then as you say, the personnel are distinguished persons. I think in the light of this scripture, we ought to value one another very greatly, and we ought each to be exercised that we qualify for this, to be among what are called "great fishes".

P.H.H. How far would you take the thought of what is fatherly in this exercise? Verse 5, "Children". Would that element continue in the assembly as known to us practically now? It is the fatherhood of Jesus here; I suppose it continues in others, in a man like Paul.

G.R.C. I would say those who have helped us are those who have approached us on this line.

P.H.H. Does that ensure the affections, and the beginning of assembly affections?

G.R.C. I think so. We have been approached in a fatherly way, and we have had a touch of the family, and that is the way of recovery.

P.H.H. I was just thinking that, the family.

G.R.C. Yes. "By this shall all know that ye are disciples of mine, if ye have love amongst yourselves", chapter 13: 35. In that chapter the Lord calls them children, and really His service there is parental. A father will do anything for his children. He washed their feet.

R.C. Is that the way Paul took matters up with the Corinthians?

G.R.C. He took matters up as a father. They were

his beloved children. How affectionately he exhorted them!

--.S. Is it not Christ's greatness and glory that He takes on such a diversity of positions?

G.R.C. It is in Him we learn fatherhood, "He that has seen me has seen the Father", chapter 14: 9. Fatherhood is perfectly set out in the Lord. So that the fathers know him that is from the beginning; and I think it is the touch of fatherhood, and the family, that would impress all of us -- specially, perhaps, those who have come into fellowship from outside. It is finding family conditions, which are not found around, that touches the heart and helps us to move in response to the word.

A.P.B. Would it not be part of a father's love and vigilance for his children to see to matters that are not right? It is important that things should be done in a right way. It is not true fatherly care to let things drift, and not take them up, on the ground that we have got to feed people, and leave them to arrive at things themselves. People sometimes suggest that 'we must not say anything to these brethren, they are only weak, and they have gone astray, let us just show them love, and feed them', and so on. But the Lord, in His fatherly activities, while He acted in wonderful tenderness and grace, did take matters up. Recovery started from His doing something about it.

G.R.C. That is most important. He says "Come and dine", but they were not very happy. It says "But none of the disciples dared inquire of Him, who art thou? knowing that it was the Lord". There were things to be adjusted, and especially with Peter. Therefore, when they had dined, it says, "Jesus says to Simon", and He begins to take things up. He takes them up with the leader, but in the presence of the others, so that all would be searched. If Peter was being searched, all were going to be searched to the very bottom.

--.G. This is a resurrection scene, the Lord is out of death. What does the shore mean? Were they not standing with Him on resurrection ground?

G.R.C. He was risen and they were in company with Him and they dined. How strengthened they must have been. But then the Lord begins to take matters up, and that is something that has to be done.

L.A.C. Is this the line on which we qualify for witness? J.B.S. said 'We do not wish to be lecturers, but witnesses'. John refers to himself in verse 24 as a witness. I wondered if witness comes by way of this process of purification?

G.R.C. I think we are all tested by J.B.S.'s words, especially those who have a little part in the ministry. We speak a lot about these things, but what a pity if we are only lecturers. The thing is to be witnesses, and I do not see how one can be a true witness apart from purification. It is a real matter, beginning with John the baptist, in chapter 1. He was the witness that came to bear witness concerning the light, and what a witness he was! He made nothing of himself. First you get his witness concerning himself. And what was it? He would not claim to be anything but a voice, and not worthy to be a slave. But then you get his witness concerning Christ, and how much he can say of Christ. We need to be emptied of self, and to say much of Christ. But often we are afraid to say much of Christ because it will bring reproach -- we shall lose our life in this world, and we are often not prepared for that.

W.S.S. Does the recovery here link with the saints being brought to the same appreciation of His people, as the Lord Himself, represented, on the one hand, in the fish, and on the other hand in the sheep and the lambs?

G.R.C. Quite so. The Lord is securing in these days great fish. They come out of the elements around, but in the very process of coming out, they become

morally great. Peter was a sample in this chapter. He had been a leader, but now the Lord deals with him in the presence of the others. So this was a searching time for the whole company.

G.R.D. Is it the light of the recovery of the truth of the assembly that would bring into prominence the great value of our being together, and having everything in the light with one another?

G.R.C. It is. The Lord probed Peter to the very depths, but in the presence of his brethren, in the presence of those whom he had led astray. But how it would lay the basis for mutual love in the circle!

G.R.D. That is just what I was meaning. The recovery of assembly affections means that there is a sphere where adjustment can work out in that kind of love.

G.R.C. So while the Lord is probing Peter, it is not so much a question of what Peter says, and yet it is delightful when a brother who has sinned makes a public confession before all, spontaneously; it is most affecting.

A.T.B. Would you say something about Peter being used. It says, before He was adjusted, that "he went up and drew the net to land full of great fishes".

G.R.C. He was obeying the word, he was an obedient man. The Lord says "Bring of the fishes which ye have now taken. Simon Peter went up and drew the net to the land full of great fishes". He is under command, and at this point, through John's help, he knows who it is that is commanding him. So that he is outwardly a recovered man. But now the Lord deals with him inwardly.

J.O.T.D. Is there any suggestion of there being a tinge of rivalry in regard of Peter's love for the Lord? One would speak carefully about it, but the Lord says "lovest thou me more than these?"

G.R.C. That is what I thought. The Lord is searching Peter, on a feature of the flesh which is

perhaps one of the last we learn to judge. Peter really loved the Lord, but he was marked by self-confidence in that devotion, there was mixed with it self-confidence, so that he says in chapter 13: 37, "I will lay down my life for thee". And in this passage, the Lord is probing him, for he really thought that he loved the Lord more than the others. In Matthew 26:33 he said "If all shall be offended in thee, I will never be offended". In other words, Peter thought he was the best brother in the meeting, and that is one of the last things, I suppose, that dies with anyone of us. A great fish is a man who is so purified in that respect that he esteems the brethren as better than himself.

W.B.H. Less than the least, like Paul.

P.L. And that could be fed upon. They fell upon Paul's neck and covered him with kisses. You were speaking of feeding on the fish.

G.R.C. Very good. What food and comfort brethren would get in seeing Paul, and his whole manner of life! What a delight to have fellowship with him in a practical way!

A.W.G.T. Would the secret lie in having an understanding of the greatness of the assembly, and every one in it? It would save us from these stupid ideas that we are something.

G.R.C. It would. Those stupid ideas mark that which is born of the flesh. "That which is born of flesh is flesh", and it intrudes in these matters. There is real affection for Christ, but that which is born of the flesh gets mixed up with it, we allow the mixture, and thus think we are a bit better, more devoted, than other people.

A.J.G. If you take up feeding the lambs, and shepherding the sheep, it will help you, because you will not have much time to trouble about yourself.

G.R.C. That is very good.

E.J.H. In the ground that Peter took, was he not really seeking to glorify himself? But as a recovered

and purified man, he is going to have his original desire in laying down his life, but he is going to do it then to glorify God, as Jesus did.

G.R.C. Very good. His motives were purified. No doubt he had the true desire, he said "I will lay down my life for thee", and the Lord gave him the privilege, but not until he was purified. So that in doing it, self was not before him at all, but the glory of God.

P.H.H. Is there something in these words "know", and "love", which appear in this section? I am thinking particularly of the end of verse 17 "Lord, thou knowest all things" which apparently is conscious knowledge; but then "thou knowest that I am attached to thee". Is that more what the Lord could see, objective knowledge. Was it now shining in Peter adjusted and purified?

G.R.C. That is very good. This three-fold probe had had a great effect on him, so that he could say "thou knowest" in the objective sense. There was that which the Lord could take account of.

P.H.H. So, as extending the matter, the brethren ought to be able to see that we do love the Lord, and we love the brethren.

G.R.C. And as we were reminded yesterday, the great point is to love the Lord in incorruption. It is remarkable it should be put that way. It does not suggest that persons may not love the Lord, but there may be a mixture. Peter had loved the Lord, but not in incorruption.

P.B. Is the Lord directing Peter's attention to the idea of the flock? Is that where true love for the Lord is tested?

G.R.C. And the change from fish to sheep is interesting. There was the fish-gate, and the sheep-gate; the fish come out of the element of death, the corruption around, and it is in that exercise that saints become great fishes; but then, that is not the whole matter. Viewed as fishes we are persons still left in the

old surroundings, but going against the stream, and "they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same sink of corruption", 1 Peter 4:4. So that "fishes" views the saints more on the line of Romans, and 1 Peter. But then there is another view of the saints, and that is "sheep". And that has in view our collective relations as under the one Shepherd, who leads us into new surroundings -- eternal life.

P.L. So that the hundred and fifty-three great fishes you could link on, by way of illustration, with the salutations to those eminent spiritual persons in Romans 16. They have come through all this element you refer to. And then shepherding the flock which He purchased with the blood of His own, what about that? Is that viewing the saints Ephesian-wise?

G.R.C. I would say so. And is not the flock an initial thought? Everything else in a collective, or corporate, sense springs out of that, for it says that Jacob served for a wife, and for a wife he kept sheep. So that the truth of the assembly as wife springs from the saints being fed and shepherded, as one flock. In John you have got the one flock, chapter 10, and the family, chapter 11. One thing merges into the other. If you have got the flock, then you will have the family, and then the body, the assembly, but you must have the flock initially. So it is "shepherd the assembly of God, which he has purchased with the blood of his own", and he speaks of the "flock wherein the Holy Spirit has set you as overseers", Acts 20:28. We never cease to be the flock, we never cease to need shepherd care. But then the higher truths are super-imposed on that, as it were. Having got the sheep, the Lord led them out, free from all other associations. All our associations are in the flock. It says the Lord leads them out, and they hear His voice, and they follow Him. So that we are moving together, flock-wise, and it is in that setting that the family can develop, according to chapter 11. Really John 11 illustrates the

fact that no one can pluck the sheep out of His hand, and yet the setting there is a family. Death comes to take one of the sheep away, and you have the Father and the Son brought into that chapter, proving the truth of the Lord's words that "none can pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one". So at the grave of Lazarus you have the Father and the Son as One, operating to rescue that sheep. It is a proof to us that not one of Christ's sheep can perish. But then as rescued from death, we find Lazarus in the family setting. The family setting is greater than the flock. And then, as you move to chapter 13, you come to what, in Paul's ministry, would be the body setting, and the assembly setting.

A.T.B. Do we see in Peter's epistle, that he had come really into the good of all the probing? He says in chapter 5: 2, "shepherd the flock of God".

G.R.C. How unselfish the service of a true shepherd is, it is not his flock. He says there "the flock of God"; and here the Lord says "Feed my lambs", "Shepherd my sheep", "Feed my sheep". But how deep the probing went! The Lord had seen Peter alone over the matter of denial, and in that way, his personal relations with the Lord on that question were settled; but the Lord opened the matter up here, in the presence of all the brethren, because he had made his statement in the presence of all the brethren. It was in the presence of all the brethren he had said "I will lay down my life for thee". He had made that boast in real affection, but with self-confidence. Self was before him in a way which he would not understand at the time. In the presence of the brethren, according to Mark, he had said "Even if all should be offended, yet not I". He was disparaging the brethren, as compared with himself. And so in the presence of the brethren, and those he had just led astray, this probing comes in, three times. "Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time" -- not

only that the Lord said it the third time -- but because on the third time, the Lord drops down to his word. Up till then, the Lord had said "Lovest thou me?" the settled disposition of love, and Peter uses his own word "thou knowest that I am attached to thee". But then the third time the Lord says "Art thou attached to me?" As though to say, You are not saying what I am saying, but is what you are saying even, really true? And that cut Peter to the very depth of his being.

M.H.T. In Nehemiah 3, in connection with the rebuilding of the wall, the first two gates mentioned are the sheep-gate, and the fish-gate; and of the sheep-gate it says "they hallowed it, and set up its doors", and of the fish-gate it says "they laid its beams, and set up its doors, its locks and its bars". In regard to the sheep-gate it records what the Lord says in the earlier chapter, that they may go in and out and find pasture, there is liberty. But is there a suggestion of certain restriction in regard to the fish-gate?

G.R.C. I think so. So that in Matthew 13 the fishermen sit down and deliberate. They put the good into vessels, and they cast the bad away. There are no bad fish here, all those caught are great fishes.

E.A.K. Therefore, could we bring into this chapter the thought of David recovering all, and David's spoil? Is it not a greater matter, in the universal conflict, that we should have our eye on that which is David's spoil, that which is connected with the assembly? In the light of the assembly, there is really nothing that the Lord has not recovered, "David recovered all", 1 Samuel 30:18.

G.R.C. So you mean that every feature proper to the assembly is recovered in these last days.

E.A.K. Yes. But do we not tend to be occupied with our side of matters, whether it is a local conflict, or what is universal? Do you not think the Spirit would help us to have our eye upon David's spoil,

what is for the Lord Jesus, what He gets for Himself out of it?

G.R.C. And how that would lead us, in incorrupt affections, to feed His lambs, shepherd His sheep, and feed His sheep!

E.J.H. What is the difference between feeding and shepherding?

G.R.C. He puts the shepherding first.

--.S. Would Psalm 78 help on that point, "he fed them according to the integrity of his heart" -- feeding, and "led them by the skilfulness of his hands" verse 72 -- leading?

E.J.H. Does shepherding suggest what we might speak of as arduous work? When Jacob takes it up he says of the actual shepherding, "Thus it was with me: in the day the heat consumed me, and the frost by night and my sleep fled from mine eyes", Genesis 31:40.

G.R.C. Much work is involved in shepherding -- "shepherd the assembly of God". That is the highest level of shepherding, and that is the great end in view in shepherding. Sheep need care and attention all the time, and from that standpoint we all need it. But it is in view of our learning our place in the family, our place in the body, and thus learning to function in the assembly. There is a great deal to be done, if sheep are to be so shepherded that the persons are fully functioning in the assembly.

A.J.G. So that in Ezekiel 34 the Lord speaks to the shepherds of Israel and says "The weak have ye not strengthened, nor have ye healed the sick, and have not bound up what was broken, neither have ye brought again that which was driven away, neither have ye sought for that which was lost", verse 4. Does not that give some idea of what is involved in shepherding?

G.R.C. It certainly does, and it is all arduous. How much we need help as to it!

A.P.B. Do not all those activities result in the

flock being together in one place, where they can be fed?

G.R.C. The shepherding would have in mind that all the flock are together, and happily feeding in peace. And this is the proof of our love for Christ. Peter said he would lay down his life for Him, but having in mind that he would do more than others would do; but that motive is to go completely; the proof of love for Christ is feeding the lambs, shepherding the sheep and feeding the sheep -- incorruptible affection for Christ.

E.I. David, the shepherd king, showed these features. At the end he said "I have sinned ... but these sheep, what have they done?", 2 Samuel 24:17.

L.L. True affection for the saints would only be realised when we think how far the Lord has been for us -- "Until he find it".

G.R.C. And so the Lord goes on and we need to make way for the full probing. The Lord would probe us all as to whether we love Him in incorruption, that is Ephesian love. It was soon corrupted at Ephesus. Our affections can soon be corrupted. The probing brings out just that point, Do I love the Lord Jesus Christ in incorruption? Is there any mixture of self in it, anywhere? If so, I am not a fully purified man. And so how deep this probing goes with Peter, until there is this cry, this anguished cry, from his heart, "Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I am attached to thee". He is not going to display it before anybody else again, so long as the Lord knows. "Thou knowest that I am attached to thee" -- I will never say anything about it to anyone else again, but thou knowest it. And then the Lord goes on to speak of the death by which he would glorify God, that he would have his desire, he would die for the Lord, and he would glorify God in it. There would be no corruption in it. And having said this, He brings in this final word, "Follow me".

F.P.S. What is the weakness seen in Peter asking about John?

G.R.C. I think it shows the fickleness of the human heart even to the last moment. We cannot trust our own hearts. After all this, and after being told how he would glorify God in his death, then it says, "Peter turning round". What was he turning round for? The Lord had just said "Follow me". His eye should have been on the Lord. "Peter turning round, sees the disciple whom Jesus loved following, who also leaned at supper on his breast, and said, Lord, who is it that delivers thee up?" John was already following, the Lord had not had to tell him. Even though Peter turned round, why should he have raised the question? I believe it shows the fickleness of our hearts, and how we get our eyes on one another. Before we know where we are, we get occupied with one another, and what somebody else is doing, instead of just with a single eye and a pure heart following the Lord, and doing our part. He turns round to look at his brother. Now who of us cannot say that that is just what is natural to our hearts? But then, when he looks round he sees a man doing what the Lord had told him to do, "he sees the disciple whom Jesus loved following". Well, that should have settled the matter any way.

G.R.D. In the assembly there is a great danger of our getting our eyes on one another because we are so near one another, whereas this section of the chapter stresses that the Lord retains direct links with each one of His own.

G.R.C. Yes, with every sheep. And it is specially important for those who, in any way, are influencing the brethren or giving a lead.

G.R.D. Would you say that probing is particularly the Lord's prerogative?

G.R.C. It is the Lord's prerogative, and He has His own way of doing it. I would think He may do it

sometimes mediately now. He may use others to do it. I have been very much searched at times by words certain brothers have said to me; they have not known how much they searched me.

P.H.H. Do you see any reference to the breastplate here. According to Numbers the names and stones in the breastplate are according to their setting in the testimony. Is there a danger, perhaps unrecognised by us, to quarrel with where another man has been placed?

G.R.C. How many have gone astray on that account! They have turned round to see what someone else was doing. But then, he sees John following. I mean, John, at this time, was fully recovered, and he was already following. That should have been sufficient for Peter; the Lord had said to him "Follow me", and he sees John following. How gladly he should have taken his place alongside John; we follow with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. And, of course, in Acts, Peter did take his place alongside of John, we see them following together. But here, it is a turn aside, he turned round, and then even though he sees John following he says, "What of this man?"

A.P.B. In what way is the Lord moving? Peter followed the Lord right through His earthly pathway. Now the Lord really was the ascending One, and how would he now follow Him? It would not be the few days the Lord would still be with them, would it?

G.R.C. I think it was the whole of Peter's path in testimony.

A.P.B. And how can we follow the Lord in that sense? How does it apply to us?

G.R.C. He says "Follow thou me". They are the Lord's last words in this gospel. "Follow thou me" And that should come home to every one of us. I think it means that we maintain a single eye, and a pure heart. I believe a person who answers to this is a

purified person; he had the Lord alone as Object and Motive, and he finds others the same, calling on the Lord out of a pure heart, and he walks along with them. But not as occupied with what they are doing exactly; if we get occupied with what one another are doing, all sorts of rivalries may come in. But we are moving on together as calling on the Lord out of a pure heart, as I understand it.

A.J.G. And is the leading of the Lord discerned in the ministry that He gives?

G.R.C. I think it is. Does not the movement of the cloud enter into it?

E.A.K. Would the word in John 12:26 fit in here, "If anyone serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there also shall be my servant". Do we get the relationship of the servant with the Lord in the testimonial path, and then the intimacy that goes with it?

G.R.C. That is very good. And He adds "him shall the Father honour".

GOD AS PRESENTED IN THE GOSPELS

Matthew 1:21 - 23; Mark 1:1; Luke 1:32; John 1:1; Psalm 150:1, 6.

I wish to say a word about God, particularly in the way He is referred to at the commencement of each gospel. Matthew brings in what I suppose is the greatest title of God; "they shall call his name Emmanuel, which is, being interpreted, 'God with us' ". I think it may be right to say that 'El' is the greatest title of God. I am speaking of title now in contrast to name. A title may be attached to a false god; the Old Testament makes clear that Jehovah is the only true 'El', the only One who has a right to that title. When the name is proclaimed it says "Jehovah, Jehovah El merciful and gracious", Exodus 34:6, and in verse 14 it says "For thou shalt worship no other El; for Jehovah -- Jealous is his name -- is a jealous El". It is important to understand the titles of God, and therefore, in a special way, this title, El. It refers to God as the One in whom alone is strength. God stands in His own strength, and no strength exists anywhere apart from Him. All other strength is derived. Whether we think of animate or inanimate bodies, whatever power or strength there is in the universe, it is all derived from El, who alone has strength in Himself, the Mighty God. We can understand that title being introduced in Matthew, because in Matthew it is a question of the testimony going through, and of persons going through with the testimony; and the persons who will go through with the testimony are those who can say "Emmanuel", "El, with us". For if El is the source of all strength and He is with us, it means nothing can stand against us.

Paul enumerates at the end of Romans 8 the things that might be against us, and that might be against the testimony, but they are all creatures, they have no strength in themselves, no inherent strength. "Death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature", everything in the universe is a creature. The greatest powers against us are only creature, but God is with us. Therefore the testimony must go through; and those who learn to call Jesus by this name, Emmanuel, will go through with it, because they are the ones who can say "God is with us".

When we think of strength, we must not limit the idea to physical strength. When we speak of a strong man, we do not always mean physical strength, we more often mean a man with strength of character. That is the great and glorious feature which stands out in all its excellence in God. God stands in the strength of His own nature and character, immovable and unchanging. Nothing ever turned Him aside. His nature and character in the past were unknown. A certain amount of light was given, as when the name was proclaimed, in Exodus 34. But full light as to the nature and character of God was not disclosed. It necessitated One coming whose name would be called Emmanuel, to disclose in all its radiance, the nature and character of God. God is now in the light, there is no doubt now as to what He is in His nature and character; all is in display, and where is it in display? In Jesus! Jesus is the effulgence of God's glory, and the expression of his substance. Hebrews 1:3. It is a most amazing thing -- the radiance of it. If only our spiritual eye-sight could take in the radiance of what is in display now, God shining forth in a Man, in the effulgence of His glory. I am not suggesting that any creature could take it all in, but it is there, in that glorious and glorified Man. The

holiest means, if we know what it is to enter there, that we are in the contemplation of that glorious and glorified Man, who is the effulgence of God's glory, the expression of His substance. And so scripture speaks of being "strengthened with all power according to the might of his glory", Colossians 1:11. If we are to become strong in the testimony, if we are to develop strength in a right sense (I am speaking now of strength of character to stand against allcomers) we must derive it from El. And we derive it in a particular way in the holiest. That verse refers to those who enter the holiest, "strengthened with all power according to the might of his glory". The Psalmist says in Psalm 63:2, "To see thy power and thy glory, as I have beheld thee in the sanctuary", and in Psalm 68 "They have seen thy goings, O God, the goings of my God, my king, in the sanctuary", and again in verse 35, "He it is that giveth strength and might unto the people". How little we know of this, and yet we see it illustrated in a man like Stephen, strengthened with all power according to the might of God's glory; nothing could overthrow him. All the power of the world and Satan combined could not overthrow Stephen, who was completely victorious in the darkest hour. That is how the testimony works out, Emmanuel, God with us.

So this gospel shows the resource we have in God in the testimony, how complete it is. At the end the name of the only true El is declared, the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. There is no need to be in any doubt as to who the true El is. The Jehovah of the Old Testament is now known by this great and glorious name. The meaning of Jehovah still attached to Him, a great name in itself, but we have this greater name, the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. And the title El attaches equally to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit. We have spoken of the Son, the

effulgence of God's glory. Think of the might of glory that shines in Him, who also upholds all things by the word of His power. We have the Son, in a peculiar way, as our resource, "there am I in the midst of them", Matthew 18:20, and, "behold, I am with you all the days, until the completion of the age", Matthew 28:20. But this gospel shows also that we have the Father as our resource. The Lord uses that name about forty times in Matthew. And the Father is brought in in connection with needs down here, whether our personal needs, or the needs of the testimony; the Father is the great ultimate resource. The Lord says in Matthew 18, where it is a question of assembly administration, "if two of you shall agree on earth concerning any matter, whatsoever it may be that they shall ask, it shall come to them from my Father who is in the heavens. For where two or three are gathered together to my name, there am I", and the Father stands committed to support such a position as that. How little we have learned to have faith and confidence in keeping with this name Emmanuel. How little we have made use of the verse, "if two of you" -- two of the assembly -- "shall agree on earth". Normally it would embrace all of the assembly in a locality, they would all be in the matter. But there might only be two. One feels that if we understood the resource better, we might not be deploring so much the smallness of meetings, because it might be they would not remain small. I would have thought in a small meeting the first thing that would be done would be to ask the Father for more of the great fishes. At the same time, the Lord shows, for our comfort, that if there are only two or three, the thing is workable. Matthew has in mind the praise of God, and the heavenly administration of the assembly. The praise of God is in view in chapter 16, in "my assembly", and opposed to that is hades' gates. Hades is the place of silence; all the operations of the devil are to silence

the praise of God in the assembly, but he will never succeed, because El is with us. And so the administration of chapter 18 is supported with all the power of God, so that the gates of hades might never prevail, that the praises might never be brought into silence. On the cross (in this gospel) the Lord uses the words of Psalm 22, "My El, my El, why hast thou forsaken me?" And the answer is in Psalm 22, "thou art holy".

Now that brings me to another point, and that is, as I have already said, that the title El relates to the nature and character of God, His strength in that way. You will find when that title is used in the Old Testament, it nearly always has reference to some attribute of God, or some feature of His character -- The most high El, the Almighty El, the living El, the faithful El, Jehovah El, merciful and gracious, abundant in goodness and truth and so on. And so in many other passages. The answer thus to "My El, my El, why hast thou forsaken me?" is "thou art holy, thou that dwellest amid the praises of Israel". What a transaction the cross is, when we think of who the Person is who was there! Because of who He is He knew fully, in an absolute way, the nature and character of God, and all that He is against sin, and all that had to be met. That transaction could never have been completed except for such a Person being in the position, who understood it fully. Perfect Man, taking our place, yet knowing fully all that was involved, because He is God.

Now I pass on to the gospel of Mark. It opens in this abrupt way, "Beginning of the glad tidings of Jesus Christ, Son of God". Now the word God here would correspond with "Elohim" in the Old Testament. That is, it is God in reference to creation -- God in His supremacy in relation to the works of His hands. I think you can see the distinction I am drawing; not God now in relation to His inherent strength, whether in what we call a physical way, or in connection with

His nature and character; but God in His supremacy relative to the works of His hands -- the One to whom all worship is due from the creature. It is from Him the gospel goes out. "Beginning of the glad tidings of Jesus Christ, Son of God"; the Son of God had come with glad tidings, sent from the heart of the Creator, the supreme Elohim. God never forgets His creatures. On man's side the conscious link is severed, but God never forgets the relationship of creature and Creator. And, as I say, the gospel goes out from the very heart of the Creator, and that is why at the end of this gospel the Lord's word is "Go into all the world, and preach the glad tidings to all the creation", chapter 16: 15. The heart of the Creator goes out to all the creation, He never forgets it; though we forget Him He never forgets us. In Isaiah 9:6 it is said of Jesus Himself that "his name is called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace". The very One who, as risen, in Manhood, was saying to them "Go into all the world, and preach the glad tidings to all the creation" was the One by whom the worlds were made. All the feelings of the Creator were fully manifested in that glorious Man. It is important that we should know these feelings, and have feelings about all the creation. The Creator has planned to free the creation from the bondage of corruption. You say, The gospel is for our blessing. So it is. It stands related to eternal purpose, to bring in the family of the firstborn. But then, it says "for the anxious looking out of the creature expects the revelation of the sons of God", Romans 8:19. "The glad tidings of Jesus Christ, Son of God" is to secure sons for God, and to secure sons for God at the present time, with a view to those sons being revealed. When the sons, secured now through the gospel, are revealed, the whole creation will be delivered "from the bondage of corruption, into the liberty of the glory of the children of God". All this should en-

courage us with gospel feelings, and gospel energies. In one way this is the spearhead of the testimony, the glad tidings -- "Go into all the world and, preach the glad tidings to all the creation". The witnesses of Luke are behind it, they are supporting the glad tidings but the glad tidings come as the first impact, as it were, of the testimony upon men in power. They may have been affected by witnesses, as they were in Acts 2, but it was the preaching of Peter that affected them. So you can see, from that standpoint, that Mark precedes Matthew. It is quite right, I am sure, that Matthew should come first in the New Testament -- the gospel that deals with the course of the testimony, the maintenance of what is for God in praise and administration. But then, if we are to have persons such as the Lord speaks of at the end of Matthew, "Go, and make disciples of all the nations, baptising them to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" -- if we are to have persons available to be made disciples of -- they must be secured through the glad tidings. "Go into all the world, and preach the glad tidings to all the creation". You get material thus, to be discipled, and taught, and brought into the assembly.

In Luke the word is "He shall be great, and shall be called Son of the Highest". You will see from the note that "Highest" is the same as in Genesis 14:18, "the Most High". It is remarkable how these titles are brought forward into the New Testament, nothing is discarded. And so the Lord Jesus is presented in Luke as Son of the Most High. Later, it says "do good, and lend ... and ye shall be sons of the Most High", chapter 6: 35. How we need to know God as Most High, and to know the Lord Jesus as Son of the Most High -- the true Melchisedec, the true Priest, as He is presented in Luke. His functions are at present Aaronic, but He is Priest after the order of Melchisedec, Son of the Most High. We need this title in

order that we may be preserved in moral elevation from all that is around. Luke brings in the service of praise in the temple. It is not to be on the level of anything on earth. And so when the heavenly host praise at the beginning, they say "Glory to God in the highest"; think of the level of it! Praise in Zion will be a great matter in the day to come, but what marks the assembly period is "Glory to God in the highest". I do not apprehend that the heavenly host themselves were rendering glory to God in the highest; I apprehend it to be a prophetic statement. As a result of the incarnation, there would be glory to Him in the highest. And where is it found? In the assembly. In Christ, of course, personally, but to be found in that heavenly vessel, "to him be glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus", Ephesians 3:21. And while we are still here, in the scene of testimony, we are to be marked by the moral elevation proper to that heavenly vessel. It is a question of the character of our service and praise. "Glory to God in the highest" is what we, as of the assembly, should be capable of rendering. And corresponding with it, our testimony to men, "do ye remain in the city till ye be clothed with power from on high", Luke 24:49. And so, you see, this title of God is brought forward to maintain us at a true elevation, above the level of current religion; and on the other hand, to enable us to be with God in His government; not submerged and depressed by what is happening down here, but recognising that "the Most High ruleth over the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever He will", Daniel 4:32. And so you find in the early chapters of Luke, how government is stressed. We are told of the decree of Caesar Augustus, and of the various rulers who were reigning in the land of Palestine when the word of God came to John; the Most High was ruling in the kingdoms of men. These two features connected with God as Most High should ever be with us. The service of

praise should be on the highest level, worthy of our God, and on the other hand, we should be able to confide in Him as to all matters of government. So that we are not depressed, nor over-occupied with earthly things; we have access to the One who rules over the kingdoms of men, and gives them to whomsoever He will; and who may set up over them the basest of men, if it suits Him. He does according to His own will in the armies of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth, and we have access to Him. And having access to Him in that way, as to governmental matters, if we really take it up, will mean that we shall never be deflected in the praise. What is happening here will never unduly disturb us. It is wonderful how we prove His government, that He is the Most High, and that He is ruling in the kingdom of men. We prove it day by day! What He is doing in government, even in detail, such as our having this hall tonight, is all setting forward the testimony.

But sometimes things may happen that seem untoward. How untoward it seemed when Caesar Augustus made his decree that a census should be taken. One might have said, 'What an awkward time for Mary to take that journey from Nazareth to Bethlehem. Has the Most High given up His over-ruling hand?' Such questions are apt to arise in our minds, when things that mean discomfort, and are contrary to natural calculations, occur. But we are not to be disturbed. They arrived at Bethlehem, and there was no room for them in the inn. Again one might have said, 'What an untoward circumstance; surely God has given up control! Surely He is not interested in the matter at all. Things have all gone wrong'. But it was the Son of the Most High who was about to be born. The Most High was ordering every circumstance; indeed, even as to the very birth of Christ, Mary had been told "power of the Most High shall overshadow thee".

So what seemed so untoward was all part of God's ways in testimony. And the heavenly hosts were not disturbed. They did not think anything wrong had happened. They said, "Glory to God in the highest". The very birth of Christ in those circumstances was the sign, "And this is the sign to you: ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, and lying in a manger". It was necessary in the ways of God, that the Son of the Most High should be born in the most lowly place; that there should be nothing that men call high attaching to His birth. The title Most High is introduced in scripture when kings were fighting one another; kings are called the high and mighty princes of the earth. When He who was the Son of the Most High, and who later, in Zacharias' theme of praise, is Himself called the Most High, (for he says of John the baptist, "And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Most High; for thou shalt go before the face of Jehovah .."., Luke 1:76) came, it was necessary in God's ways that He should be in the most low place here, with nothing that men call 'highness' attaching to Him, so that, true highness, true moral elevation might come into evidence. Anything connected with man's highness and greatness would have spoiled the lustre of the incarnation. How great Christ is, that He needed nothing that men think great and high to enhance His greatness. Well, our witness is to be in keeping with this. We are witnesses when we praise, "Whosoever offereth praise glorifieth me" Psalm 50:23. The saints engaged in the high praises of God are a great witness, in some ways the greatest witness. But then we are to be witnesses at all times. "Ye are witnesses of these things .. . ye be clothed with power from on high". Think of the elevation of power from on high.

I am saying these things to bring God before us. God, the Mighty El, Elohim, the great Creator, whose heart is moved towards His creation, and is

acting with a view to its complete liberation; and then the Most High, the One who is ruling in the kingdoms of men so that we can rest under His shadow, "He that dwelleth in the secret place of the Most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty", Psalm 91:1. We can be restful there, and, as restful there, maintain the service and the witness on the highest level.

We now come to John, to what is most choice; and if we think of what is brought forward from the Old Testament, what is brought forward in John is the Name, not a title but the Name, as the Name of the Old Testament, "I am that I am". That was God's personal name as known in the Old Testament. That name comprises three designations. "I am" is God's own assertion of His self-existence; "Jah", is the creature's answer to it, "whose name is Jah", it says, Psalm 68:4. God says "I am", the creature says 'He is'. He is the One who alone has existence in Himself, the great and eternal God. Then "Jehovah", refers to that great and eternal One coming into time, and into relationship with men -- the One who is, and who was, and is to come. Those three cognate words comprise the Name, that is, the Name of the Old Testament, and that is what is carried forward into John. It was when God disclosed His personal name in the Old Testament that He spoke of dwelling; and we come to what is most choice then. The choicest thought, as it were, in the heart of God is to dwell. To bless, yes, to liberate, to give eternal life; all these things are necessary. But the choicest thing is that He would dwell. It is what His nature requires. In human affairs we dwell with those we love, we dwell with those with whom we have personal relations. Think of God entering into personal relations with men! With Israel, as a covenant God, but how wonderful the declaration today. The name was proclaimed then, but declared now. God Himself

has declared it. The gospel of John thus opens with the assertion that Jesus is I am, the One who ever was and everything else began to be through Him. God alone has existence in Himself, all other things began to be. God alone ever was. The name carries with it the idea (though it is veiled) of what He is, "I am that I am". I believe there is an indication in it that God is love, manifested in His desire to dwell, even to dwell in the bush; "the goodwill of him that dwelt in the bush". What a God He is! And so as we think of this personal name of God in the Old Testament, how wonderful the personal name of God in the New -- the full declaration, "the only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him". This gospel is a wonderful gospel, the declaration of God in a personal way, so that we should know Him. And when I speak of a personal way, when you come to Christianity it means knowing three Persons; it is not only knowing God in His nature and character -- that is most blessed -- shining forth in a Man; but having personal relations with the Persons of the Godhead, and brought into them by One in such a position, "the only-begotten Son who is in the bosom of the Father". He introduces us, as in that position, into these personal loving relations with the Father, and with Himself, and with the Holy Spirit. So this gospel not only speaks about dwelling -- and it uses the word abide which is a strong word for dwelling, there is a kind of permanency about it -- it not only speaks much about dwelling, but much about knowing. As to the sheep, "I know those that are mine, and am known of those that are mine, as the Father knows me and I know the Father", chapter 10: 14. What a knowledge we have of the Son from that standpoint, "as the Father knows me and I know the Father". And in chapter 14: 7, "if ye had known me, ye would have known also my Father, and henceforth ye know him and have seen him". The thing is

that we should have a personal knowledge of God, and that means a personal knowledge of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit; and in a most intimate way. Because, after all, our links with the Father and the Son and the Spirit are closer than any links we have in nature, and even closer than the links we have with one another, I would suppose, in the one body, and in the family. Surely our links with God Himself are closer than any. God known and loved, and in intimate relationship with us. What a conception this is! And God would dwell as thus known. We know the Son, "I know those that are mine, and am known of those that are mine". I am not in any way contradicting another saying of the Lord that "No one knows the Son but the Father", Matthew 11:27, that is another idea altogether. I am referring to Jesus as having come forth, "the Word became flesh", and "the only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father"; and He says "I know my sheep, and am known of mine, as the Father knows me and I know the Father". Then He says as to the Father, "henceforth ye know him and have seen him", and as to the Spirit, "whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see him nor know him; but ye know him", John 14:17. What a knowledge this is, the personal knowledge of God. We know the Father, we know the Son, and we know the Spirit. And how has it all come about? Because the One who is shown so clearly to be the I am in the first three verses of chapter 1, became flesh, "the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us". That is why He came -- to dwell. That is why God has disclosed Himself in a personal way. We need to know the persons we live with, and love them; and therefore God wants us to know Him, and to love Him. He would dwell where He is thus known and loved. Dwelling is a most exquisite thought, the tabernacle of God with men. The great finality of it is in the book of Revelation;

yet it is to be known now. The thought of dwelling and abiding runs right through the gospel. Nothing else would satisfy love. "My Father will love him, and we will come to him". Why? Because of love! Love that could not stay away. Think of the wonder of the love of God, as thus manifested! If there are right conditions, His love is such that there is no question about it; His love required that He should come, "If anyone love me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our abode with him". How blessed! We shall live in this economy of love through eternity. It is our home. In another sense we may perhaps say that it is the home of Divine Persons. God is ever dwelling, of course, in light unapproachable, into which we cannot penetrate, although we know it is light. We know that, in His absolute dwelling, God is not dwelling in darkness. It might have been thought so of old, but because of the way He has come out to us, we know that God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all, and therefore we know that, in those unapproachable conditions, He dwells in light. That is a great thing. We worship Him as we think of Him thus. But how wonderful these dwelling conditions among men, and what an appeal to our hearts it is that we should provide such conditions! Can we turn away from such a God as this? Can we be negligent about having the Lord's commandments and keeping them? Can we be so hard-hearted as to fail to keep His word, when love is waiting upon us, yearning to come, and have free dwelling conditions, and free intercourse with us? As we said earlier today, the Spirit will never leave us, however grieved He may be. But if we want to know God dwelling in the proper sense of the word, not only the Spirit, but also the Father and the Son, there must be conditions. And that is what the appeal to us is at a time like this, to provide the conditions.

But all knowledge of God is to lead up to praise. That is why I read in Psalm 150. It is praise to God indeed in the highest, if we bring the light of Christianity into it "Hallelujah!", that is "Praise ye Jah", "praise El in his sanctuary". Let us lay hold, dear brethren, of those two things as understood in the light of the Christian revelation. The glory of God's name, the great self-existent God, known personally now, and the glory of His nature and character in full display in the sanctuary, "Praise ye Jah, Praise El in his sanctuary". "Let everything that hath breath praise Jah". Beloved brethren, may we get a deeper apprehension, a deeper knowledge of God! Paul prays for the Colossians that they may grow by the true, or full, knowledge of God. How we yearn for the full knowledge of God!

May the Lord use these few words to help us for His Name's sake!