Matthew 16:15 - 18; Acts 19:1 - 7; Song of Songs 3:6 - 11
I desire to say a little about the assembly and the features whereby it is recognized, and I have selected the passage of Scripture from the Song of Songs so as to call attention to these features. I begin with Matthew 16, the passage in that gospel which formally introduces the assembly. What it is may be gathered from the Lord's remarks to Simon; He says to him, "Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona", as answering His question, "Who do ye say that I am?" He refers to him by the name he bore in his responsibility. In the corresponding passage in John's gospel, the Lord says, "Thou art Simon, the son of Jonas" (John 1:42), omitting that he was blessed; but in Matthew the Lord addresses him by the name he bore in his responsibility, prefixing "blessed"; he was blessed in that he was so favoured as to receive the revelation about Christ from the Father in heaven. It was an immense favour, and would stand in relation to Simon in his responsibility while he remained on earth. No other had that particular favour; others were blessed in other connections, such as Mary, the mother of our Lord. She was blessed among women; that particular advantage would never depart from her in her path of responsibility here. Again, the woman who anointed the Lord in Simon the leper's house was specially distinguished, so much so that wherever the gospel was announced she was to be mentioned; what she had done was to be made known. She had a personal distinction that was peculiar to her, but no one had a distinction like that
which was attributed to Simon: "Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona, for flesh and blood has not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in the heavens".
We have thus a man standing out in responsibility, but blessed; and it describes those of us who form the assembly in its public character, the assembly as seen in us as in flesh and blood conditions. The truth of the assembly at Corinth is an example: it was composed of men and women, old and young, who had believed in Christ, who had been baptized, and in consequence had received the Holy Spirit, but who were still remaining in their position in this world as responsible to God. Romans provides the material for the assembly from this point of view. The believer, in Romans, is Simon Bar-jona, blessed; it is the same person, of the same parents, the same family links, and in the same place; but a disciple, baptized and possessed of the Holy Spirit. We see in Simon the leper, a name attached to a believer in responsibility in a negative sense. Evidently he was not a leper then, for Jesus was at his house; but he has been so known, and the stigma attached to him; this would help him spiritually. But although a leper he was responsible to God, and the fulfilment of his responsibility is, in part, seen in that he entertained the Lord. The woman of whom I spoke anointed the Lord's head in that house.
Romans contemplates the believer from that angle. He has his body which he can use as a sacrifice; it is the same body in which he sinned, but by the Spirit it is now in his control; it is dead in regard to sin, but the Spirit in it is life in view of righteousness. And so he presents it to God a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable, which is his intelligent service. Believers viewed thus in the aggregate, being "one body in Christ" in any town, are treated as the assembly. They are still in responsibility, but in a collective sense, and God regards them not only as His people,
but as His assembly -- a body subject to Christ, in which the Holy Spirit is free, and maintains what is due to God, and insists upon the keeping of the feast of unleavened bread. By the presence of the Holy Spirit, His responsible people are God's temple; 1 Corinthians 3:16. Whatever others may think of them, that is what they are, for the Spirit of God dwells in them, and moreover they are the body of Christ; 1 Corinthians 12:27. In them the features of Christ are exhibited in any city or place in which they may be; in them the presence of God is known.
An exercised person comes into one of their meetings, and there is ministry. The women are silent, they are suitably attired, and their heads are covered. The men are in subjection, they wait upon one another, they give place to the prophet because his ministry is the most desirable and profitable, see 1 Corinthians 11 to 14. And so one may discern in that company, in a particular room or building, in a particular street, that God is there, He has a footing among these people; the one who comes in may discern a place where everything is morally right, even the order of creation is not violated. Now that is what marks the assembly of God, and I take Simon, the son of Jonas, being blessed, as descriptive of those who form it.
Then the Lord goes on in the passage I read in Matthew to say to Peter, "And I also, I say unto thee that thou art Peter", not that thou shalt be called Peter, as in John's gospel, but "Thou art Peter", and the meaning of the word "Peter", as you all know, is a "stone". From this point of view Peter does not represent our responsible history, but rather the spiritual. He is a stone; he was constituted that by his confession; it refers to what he was spiritually. Of such material the assembly is built. It is the other view of the truth of it, not what it is locally in responsibility here, although greatly affecting this, but
a wholly spiritual thing composed of persons who are so viewed.
Now unless we make this distinction in ourselves severally, and in the saints generally, we shall not arrive at the truth of the assembly, nor shall we recognize it. We shall be liable to regard companies that are not really of it, as of it, and we shall be unable to see how the assembly is to be the eternal companion of Christ. It is from the standpoint of Peter, that is to say, of what is wholly spiritual, that the assembly is to be the companion of Christ in heaven and the vessel of God's glory eternally. The responsible side will pass away, for in the new creation "there is no Jew nor Greek; there is no bondman nor freeman; there is no male and female; for ye are all one in Christ Jesus", Galatians 3:28. It is from that point of view that we form the assembly, as in the purpose of God. It is an immense thing for us to lay hold of this.
I read the passage in Acts 19 just to illustrate these two features. You will observe that it says, "While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul, having passed through the upper districts, came to Ephesus". Scripture is exceedingly accurate in the words and phrases it makes use of. God was pleased to work in Corinth in an extensive way, whereas there was but little in Athens. It suggests to us an answer to a question that often arises: Why is it that there is nothing for God in such and such a large centre? God knows! There indeed was some result at Athens, but very little; whereas the Lord says to Paul, as to Corinth, "I have much people in this city", Acts 18:10. Why he had them it does not say, but He had them. It was not on account of the lack of ministry at Athens, for Paul was there and preached there, but he was directed to remain at Corinth. He had a vision in the night so that he should know the mind of God regarding the work in that city.
On entering Corinth from Athens, it says that Paul found Aquila and Priscilla there. Now that was not an accident; they were assembly people, representative of the assembly in its local character. Twice it is said that they had an assembly in their house. Paul lodged with them. It says also that they, being tent makers, were of the same craft as the apostle. Attention is thus called to the humility of the vessels, corresponding indeed with the smallness outwardly of the assembly; there was nothing in it to appeal to the man after the flesh. It was a question of tents, not great ecclesiastical structures, as in the world.
That is the introduction to Corinth; and the apostle remains there eighteen months, ministering the word of God. It was a question, really, of the antitype of the tabernacle, and so he ministered "the word of God". The tabernacle is that in which God is known in this world, and so it was the word of God. At Ephesus it was more the word of the Lord. Paul leaves Corinth and goes to Ephesus with Aquila and Priscilla, and leaving them there he goes to Jerusalem. Presently Apollos arrives at Ephesus, and is instructed in the way of God more exactly by Aquila and Priscilla. They did not do this in a public way; they took him to them. The perfecting of his instruction was important, for he was a great vessel. Now we are told that Apollos was at Corinth -- having left Ephesus commended by the brethren. He was there in regard to the responsible body; and being mighty in the Scriptures, his ministry watered the saints, and thus promoted the growth of that which Paul had planted. This represents a continuing ministry for the maintenance of the assembly in its responsible character here. It was while Apollos was at Corinth that Paul went to Ephesus. The feature of the assembly represented at Corinth was being cared for by this servant; and the apostle was comforted, doubtless, by the fact that Apollos was there.
It says that Paul came by "the upper districts" to Ephesus. We are now on another line which corresponds with "Peter" -- the spiritual material; for God knew what was at Ephesus. He did not tell Paul that he had much people there, as at Corinth, but we may be sure that Paul had divine guidance. He arrived at Ephesus and found certain persons there who were believers, but who knew only the baptism of John. They represent many at the present time, persons who believe, but have not had a full gospel. There are many like that, for there is much defective teaching abroad; much teaching which comes very far short of the truth, but there is light in it, and God has respect for those who walk in the light they have; they are true to the light they have. First of all he asks, "Did ye receive the Holy Spirit when ye had believed?" For now it is a question of what is wholly spiritual, and if you have not the Spirit you are not material for the building.
Well, they had not heard of the Holy Spirit, and he tells them about Jesus, quoting John as saying to the people that they should believe on Him. "And when they heard that, they were baptized to the name of the Lord Jesus". They were ready for fresh light. I commend that to all here; if you have been true to the light you have, you will be ready for something fresh; you will not refuse it, you will accept it. They accepted what Paul said to them, and were baptized to the name of the Lord Jesus. This would take them wholly out of the world, and would introduce them to all that was set forth in that name. I cannot tell you all that Paul said to them, but elsewhere he says, "Having heard the word of the truth, the glad tidings of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, ye have been sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise", Ephesians 1:13. You may be sure that a touch of what is heavenly was conveyed to them in that gospel; there was something in it of the gospel of the glory as well
as the gospel of their salvation, for in the epistle to the Ephesians, salvation means not only from wrath to come and the power of Satan, but also from this world as a place. Then there were twelve men who evidently received the Holy Spirit together; and thus, potentially, there was spiritual material for the assembly at Ephesus.
I go one point further to show the bearing of all this. In writing to them the apostle says, "Ye are no longer strangers and foreigners, but ye are fellow-citizens of the saints, and of the household of God, being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the cornerstone", Ephesians 2:19, 20. I want you to take note of the place "Jesus Christ himself" has in this structure: Himself -- it is very touching, especially in these last days. I take it that the foundation of the apostles and prophets, refers to their ministry; it was not for show -- foundations are not for show. The apostles never made a show of what they were doing, but their service always afforded testimony for God; what they were concerned about in laying the foundation was solidity and permanency -- material that would stand. It is a great tribute to them that the Holy Spirit says that the structure was on their foundation. But what about the corner stone, "Jesus Christ himself" -- that is to be seen! Christ is known in the assembly. It is said in connection with the virtuous woman in Proverbs 31, "Her husband is known in the gates"; she is a type of the assembly. The idea of the corner stone suggests what is seen; it binds all together and is ornamental. What it means to a spiritual person is, that Christ is everything to him -- that he thinks of Christ as "Jesus Christ himself!" There is no mediator between Christ and the assembly, "Jesus Christ himself being the corner-stone". In keeping with this, the heavenly city has no temple; God and the Lamb are the temple there.
Revelation 2 and 3 contemplate distance, in view of the failure of the public body, but not so Ephesians -- Christ is Head as seen there.
Now I go on to the Song of Songs, to outline these features. The question is asked,
It is not here, "Leaning upon her beloved", as later, in chapter 8: 5; it is a question here of herself, what she is as the subject of the work of God, what she is as spiritual. What are these "pillars of smoke?" They indicate, I think, that she had to do with God, that she had offered sacrifices. I suppose the allusion is to the smoke of the sacrifices on the altar in the tabernacle. But she is not soiled by it nor by the defilement of the wilderness. She is not damaged by it; on the contrary, she is
She does not bear a mark of the wilderness, but is perfumed. She is not a child of the wilderness like Hobab, who preferred to stay there. She has come out herself; it is not a question of Moses supporting her, she is coming out herself. She comes up answering perfectly to Christ,
She has acquired all this at a price; it is a question here of what she is, what she has acquired, and that all is for Christ. And now Christ has something that He can call His own. "Behold his couch, Solomon's own". He is restful where these conditions are. The virtuous woman in Proverbs had much, but all was to glorify her husband; everything there indicated what he was; and so we get here, "Behold his couch,
Solomon's own". That principle began at Pentecost, when nobody called anything he had his own; it was a question as to what was at the disposal of Christ. Am I at the disposal of Christ? The more spiritual I am, the more I am at His disposal. The assembly is Christ's -- something that He can regard as His own; "My assembly", as He says.
Then there are men of war to defend that. They were expert in war, threescore of them round about Solomon's couch, each having a sword. The idea is collective; the number is given, but each has his sword. Each is ready for alarm in the night. They are expert; if an alarm is sounded, they are ready to defend what belongs to Christ. Of the assembly it is said, that hades' gates shall not prevail against it.
And now Solomon, that is Christ, is free to provide something for Himself.
We are now on a high plane, for it is a question of the dignity of the saints, as indicated in the wood of Lebanon. He made it for himself. No doubt it refers to that on which he is borne by others, but he made it.
And now instead of someone coming up out of the wilderness, there are "the daughters of Jerusalem"; they are not daughters of the wilderness. Many of us come into fellowship, who have barely escaped from the world, and are content to remain in the wilderness; such do not want to go into Canaan -- to take up the heavenly calling. "The midst thereof was paved with love", we are told, not for the daughters of Jerusalem, but by or "from" them, as the better
rendering puts it; it was what they were doing. Paving is severe work; you have to get down to pave. They paved with love -- what fine material that is! And then there is the appeal to the daughters of Zion, "Go forth, daughters of Zion". Thus we move from the wilderness to the full purpose of God. Of ourselves it is said, "Ye have come to mount Zion", Hebrews 12:22. It is the principle of sovereign mercy on which we stand, as we read, "God, being rich in mercy, because of his great love wherewith he loved us ... has raised us up together, and has made us sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus", Ephesians 2:4, 6. Zion represents sovereign selection; God refers to it in that way: "Here will I dwell, for I have desired it", Psalm 132:14. There is nothing safer than to fall back on the sovereign mercy of God. He loves us to be in that position, and He loves to recognise us in it. It is there we get great love and rich mercy, and in the light and enjoyment of these we are, so to speak, "daughters of Zion". A daughter signifies a subjective result of the light presented. The daughters of Zion are called upon to go forth; it says,
All this refers to the affectionate recognition in the saints of the official glory of Christ. "His mother" no doubt alludes to Israel as brought to this in a future day. The action of the woman in the house of Simon the leper foreshadows this; she anointed the Lord's head. She, however, represents more, prefiguring those who form the assembly. The
answer to the question, "Who is this?" Matthew 21:10, is obvious if you are spiritual. The Lord asks such a question with regard to Himself. In Mark Peter says, "Thou art the Christ", chapter 8: 29; in Luke, that He is "The Christ of God", chapter 9: 20; but in Matthew the addition is made, "The Son of the living God", verse 16. It is a question of revelation, and so the Lord names the result: "thou art Peter". This, as we have seen, enters into the constitution of the assembly, making it wholly spiritual; each member of it, as it were, is "Peter". This is the result of light in the soul as to the Person of Christ, which each member of the assembly normally has by the Spirit. You can only be in the assembly by the Spirit.
Isaiah 37:4, 22, 31, 32; Leviticus 10:12 - 15; John 6:66 - 69
The words "that are left" are in my mind. We are living in remnant times, and it is well to have an understanding of the times so as to know what is to be done, what Israel is to do. An understanding of the times implies that one is conversant with the assembly's history, I do not refer to the histories that have been written since apostolic times, but the history written during apostolic times, that is, the inspired prophetic history of the assembly in Revelation 2 and 3. One has to be conversant with that in order to have an understanding of the times; and it speaks of a period of great departure from the truth, only a few being left. That period of "falling away" (2 Thessalonians 2:3), continues, having varied features.
I wish to speak of what is regarded by the Spirit of God as "left" of the original as contemplated in the history, and Isaiah serves in a special way to bring this out. He is by no means a doleful prophet: he is a triumphant, buoyant prophet, and he deals with what is left showing how it becomes in due course a complete whole; for if we are to be with God, beloved friends, in our service and testimony, we are to have completeness in our minds. We could not have the Lord's supper rightly today, were we to confine ourselves in our thoughts to a part of the whole: to regard ourselves thus would indeed be sectarian. The Lord's supper is of no force save in the light of the whole assembly. The Lord said, "Take, eat: this is my body", and added to that in 1 Corinthians 10 is, "We, being many, are ... one body", not a part of a body, "for we are all partakers of that one bread". I wish to work out my subject on those lines, that, as beginning with what
is left, we end with a whole or complete thought, There is no other thought in the mind of God, nor is there any other in the mind of the intelligent Christian; and this expands him and maintains him here for God according to His mind. One could illustrate that from numerous passages in the Old and New Testaments, showing the whole thought is always in mind. I dwell upon it at the beginning, lest young people should be partaking of the Lord's supper with any less thought than that, and so become sectarian in mind and practice. You may look at what is left, and say, Well, there is very little. But the nearer you get to God, the greater what is left becomes in your mind. It becomes enlarged and expanded, until it is seen as "coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband". It is a great city, corresponding in every way with the administrative requirements of God. It comes down from God out of heaven, having the glory of God, and its light is most precious.
Isaiah helps us as to this. If we consider ourselves as here tonight, what is left in numbers in our localities is small, and sometimes we become very discouraged because of this, and the enemy of our souls would press it in upon us. We see this in Rabshakeh intimating that Hezekiah could not put riders on two thousand horses. The enemy would say to you, Look at the little meeting you have over the grocery store, and contrast it with that great cathedral with its fine music, etc., or look at those people that get up at five o'clock in the morning and attend mass; look at the numbers of them! Rabshakeh represents this side of Satan's efforts. He would press the greatness of current religious organizations upon you and discourage you, until you will perhaps even join some of them. Hezekiah had no such thoughts; nor did the men on the wall.
They were enjoined to answer nothing. Believers belong to greater things than cathedrals or the most renowned organizations of men. Hezekiah was led into the knowledge of this by the messages sent him by Jehovah. In the meantime he rent his garments, and sent a beautiful, feeling message to Isaiah, the servant of God. He says to him, "Lift up a prayer for the remnant that is left". That is the word, dear brethren. The remnant that is left, small as it may be, is to be prayed for. Will not God hear? There is great encouragement in one's heart tonight (this being the usual night for prayer) as one thinks of the hundreds of places where prayer has been raised for the remnant that is left. God hears, as Isaiah's message to Hezekiah shows.
Then Rabshakeh writes a letter to Hezekiah, and Hezekiah spreads it out before the Lord, in the house of the Lord. That would show that a young believer, as pressed by the enemy on account of the smallness of things in his locality, might rightly send a message to someone whom he knows is in relation to God. It is of great importance for young believers to maintain acquaintance with those who are in prayerful relations with God. Hezekiah regarded Isaiah in this way. He says, "thy God". It is very important to know the man to whom to send if you are in soul need. Be sure he is the right man or you will be misled. Hezekiah sent to a known "man of God" and obtained a divine answer. But then in asking aid from another the thought comes to you, Why not go myself to God? That is an important matter especially for young people. Why not go to God yourself? The enemy is pressing on you -- it may be that the fellow-workers in the office are taunting you about the miserableness of your little meeting, or about your teachers, or preachers: they are not college men, etc. Why not go to God yourself about these things? You will get encouragement as you
do so. The second time Hezekiah went himself to the house of God. That is how priestly ability is promoted, and he spread the letter he had received from Rabshakeh before God. He told Jehovah the whole matter. I may not be able to speak eloquently to men, but God will listen to the most broken or ungrammatical words, for He reads the heart. "He that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit", and He makes intercession for the saints according to God. The whole case is in your heart and God understands it as there. To this prayer of Hezekiah a second answer from Jehovah is sent through Isaiah. It is much fuller than the first and promises complete triumph over the Assyrian, as we shall see.
God does not say anything at all at the first about the remnant that was left. If you get into your closet with God, you see with Him the things that be not as though they were: you get the sense that "all things are possible" with Him. And so a triumphant word is sent back to the enemy. The once feeble christian, cowering at his taunts, now says, "The daughter of Zion hath despised thee, and laughed thee to scorn; the daughter of Jerusalem hath shaken her head at thee". That is not merely the remnant that is left. "Zion" is a great spiritual principle, involving a complete or whole thought. Scripture abounds with it. Think of being a daughter of Zion! And what kind of a daughter? A virgin daughter. That is to say, a daughter that is "unconquered", see note on 2 Kings 19:21 (New Trans.). She has never come under the power of Assyria or the world. Can an enemy stand against that? No. Behind that is all that God is. God dwells in those who as keeping His commandments, love Him. Who can overcome Him, or them in whom He dwells? "Greater is he that is in you than he that is in the world". 1 John 4:4. Then there is "the daughter
of Jerusalem". Zion is a great principle. It is the ground upon which God took us up when we were unconverted. "According to his mercy he saved us", The idea of Zion comes to a christian as he listens to the gospel and believes in Christ. The God who took you up and saved you then saves you now. He is the defender of Zion. I want you young people to hold this thought in your minds when people talk to you about your little meeting (I am not saying that the little meeting might not be larger!) -- but what God has saved out of the wreck, as it were, however small, is not to be despised: God clothes it with all His thoughts. It is the whole idea that is there in that little "upper room" as intelligent christians come together to partake of the Lord's supper. As spiritually intelligent they are full of a whole thought, and God takes note of it, and brings them into the fulness and blessedness of the assembly.
So we have the daughter of Zion and the daughter of Jerusalem. The last is one that understands government; government in, and going out from, the assembly. We have what we call 'care meetings', which are very important meetings, They imply that there are those who care for the saints. We have been speaking in these meetings about the Gershonites. The Gershonites looked after the curtains of the tabernacle; that suggests principles. These would come out more in Bible readings and in ministry generally, but at care meetings what comes into evidence, is the persons of the saints -- although the former necessarily at times combines with the latter. Every one of the saints is precious. Were we only to know how valuable each saint is to God, he would be an object of care to us. Even a weak brother is precious; Romans 14:15. The weak brother for whom Christ died, as precious, is to be cared for. So in these care meetings we talk over these matters, and the Lord
helps us. They are not administrative meetings: they are deliberative meetings. They are meetings into which wisdom enters, a wisdom greater than enters into any of the councils of this world, a wisdom that is "from above". That is the idea of them. All young brothers are developed there, as sons of Jerusalem. But what about the daughters? Some say the sisters do not know of what transpires at care meetings. If a sister is truly a daughter of Jerusalem, she will know. She will know if she inquires, and she will inquire as having the Lord's interests at heart, see 1 Corinthians 14:35. Do you think Anna would not know of things that were current in the temple in her day? She would know. She represents what I am speaking of. She was a daughter of Jerusalem. She was a daughter of Zion also, as every true believer is, as I have said; but a daughter of Jerusalem is one that is concerned about Jerusalem and what it represents. Anna was marked by this; she spoke of Christ to all those who waited for redemption in Jerusalem, Luke 2:38. And so all the sisters may be conversant with matters relative to the assembly. As daughters of Zion and of Jerusalem thus, the saints prove the power of God as with His people, and they despise the Assyrian enemy and laugh him to scorn. The daughter of Jerusalem knows that the wisdom of God is operative, the wisdom of which Proverbs 8 speaks. That wisdom is the same that is with the brothers as in some obscure room they converse together about the saints and their welfare, and it eventuates in the defeat of the gates of hades, Matthew 16:18; therefore the daughter of Jerusalem laughs to scorn the opposition, instead of cowering before it in the office or in the workshop. She is superior to the attack.
Another thing comes out in our chapter in Isaiah; "The remnant that is escaped of the house of Judah shall again take root downward, and bear fruit upward", verse 31. There is no gainsaying that what is
in this continent, what "is left", is very small. To ignore that fact is to be at a disadvantage. It is not only small in quantity, pardon me for saying this, but it is poor in quality, relatively speaking, but that is no reason why I should turn my back upon it: it is for me to make it better. For if I speak of the poverty of things, I have to begin with myself, what I have, and what I am contributing, and that applies to every one of us. So the word is, "take root downward" -- that is another great point with Isaiah. It means that one gets down into the soil in which he is set, that one is not ambitious, nor living in the sense of his own importance. There will be no growth for God in that state. The growth is in getting down into the earth where the power of life is: being "rooted and grounded in love". That means that one renounces one's self, so that one becomes planted of the Father. How beautiful that is! "Every plant", says the Lord, "which my heavenly Father has not planted, shall be rooted up". One comes under the gracious agricultural skill of the Father; and He plants me in the best possible soil so that root is taken, but to "take root downward" is more than being planted. You can see the point of it, how the roots of the tree spread out and strike downwards because of the energy of life in the tree and in the soil. Aside from life in the plant there can be no growth, and aside from life in the soil there can be no growth. There must be both ideas, and then fruit for God is borne upward.
In the second scripture, we have the priesthood -- those which "were left" of the priests, Aaron and his two sons; they are few; if two thousand riders cannot be put on two thousand horses, we may be sure there are not many priests. We may be sure that the fewness of warriors is because of the fewness of priests. But then you see from the first scriptures I read, how the priesthood comes into evidence. As I was saying, I am oppressed by the opposition and I send to a
priest, a man that I know can pray. I send to the right man. There are such; and I advise every young person here to get to know them, the men who pray to God. But then, in doing that I think of praying to God myself, and that is how the priesthood becomes enlarged. There is a sense of need as one is pressed by circumstances of various kinds, and he says, "I will lift up mine eyes unto the hills, from whence cometh my help? My help cometh from the Lord, which made heaven and earth". There is a man developing in the priesthood. He has been looking elsewhere, and rightly asking a brother to pray for him; now he prays for himself: and I ask you young people here, How much of this marks you? What you see in this chapter is that there were four sons of Aaron, but two of them die -- and not an ordinary death. What comes out in these types shows extraordinary things happening. Some people think that none of these things are happening now, that since the fathers fell asleep all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. It is not so. Every true christian is a miracle. There are current occurrences in the sense of blessing that are greater than physical cures, and they are constant. The same may be said of God's judicial dealings. In Numbers 16 you get the earth opening and swallowing men down, men dying thus under the judgment of God. The present period is not a time of wrath -- it is a time of grace, but still the government of God is inevitable: it is against rebellion, and the Lord says of Jezebel, "I will kill her children with death", Revelation 2:23. Is not that serious? It is a greater thing, in a sense, than was the death of Korah and his company! Perhaps you never thought of that. Why should the Lord kill with death? We have to understand it spiritually. Here are two men, priests. They have that position in Israel. They are the two elder sons of Aaron, Nadab and
Abihu, and each takes his censer and offers strange fire -- a most serious matter, Possibly amongst ourselves, dear brethren, strange fire in a modified sense is sometimes offered to God, and one has to challenge one's self when one is taking part in the assembly. What is one's motive? A man may use excellent language in speaking to God, but what is his motive, what is behind it? The "fire" is what gives effect to it. If it is "strange", the spiritual feel it, and God feels it. But what is before us in Leviticus 10, is a more extended and serious matter. It typifies a great happening in the assembly; the unrestrained human mind become active in the worship of God. This solemn occurrence corresponds with the rebellion of the Levites as recorded in Numbers 16.
That is the setting in this chapter, and the word is to the priests that are left. What is to happen to them? Are they not to be on their guard, are they not to be careful? It is a most solemn chapter. I cannot go into it fully now, but I want to call attention to the fact that Aaron, Eleazar and Ithamar were not to uncover their heads (Leviticus 10:6), they were not to go out of the sanctuary. The priesthood, however reduced, must continue. No matter how terrible the happenings, there must be no relinquishment of priestly service in the assembly. The enemy would bring in troubles amongst us and seek to prevent the saints turning to God, but there must be no relinquishing, whatever happens. I want to show you, further, that if those that are left of the priests are to continue priests, they must eat, and they must eat priests' food, not ordinary food. And then, a certain feature of it must be eaten in a holy place, and other features in a "clean place": the former is typified in the oblation that is left of Jehovah's offerings by fire; the latter is the breast of the wave-offering and the shoulder of the heave-offering.
I would appeal to young christians as to where they eat. There is a great deal of eating going on professedly in relation to God, but is it in suitable places? That is a matter for everybody to consider. It is not only the food but where I eat it. I would not like to say anything against our brethren who are in the so-called systems around us, but it is obligatory to call attention to conditions, that there are places, so-called christian organizations, that are not clean places: they are not holy places. They are unholy because of the very fact that they are sectarian. No one who reads the types (and they are written for us) will fail to note the great stress laid on holiness both as to persons and place. The types refer to God's requirements in the assembly, which New Testament teaching shows. Thus the Spirit of God would challenge us as to what and where we are eating as christians. It is well to face this, dear brethren, Are you to continue, are you to go on in active service? If you are, you must eat the food that is provided for the priest and you must eat it in a holy place. This passage says: "Take the meat offering that remaineth of the offerings of the Lord made by fire, and eat it without leaven beside the altar: for it is most holy: and ye shall eat it in the holy place, because it is thy due, and thy sons' due, of the sacrifices of the Lord made by fire: for so I am commanded, And the wave breast and heave shoulder shall ye eat in a clean place; thou and thy sons, and thy daughters with thee: for they be thy due, and thy sons' due, which are given out of the sacrifices of peace offerings of the children of Israel. The heave shoulder and the wave breast shall they bring with the offerings made by fire of the fat, to wave it for a wave offering before the Lord; and it shall be thine, and thy sons' with thee, by a statute for ever; as the Lord hath commanded", Leviticus 10:12 - 15.
It is a question of the most excellent of the offerings presented to God by His people. It is Christ in the most excellent features in which He is presented in the saints: the oblation, the breast of the wave-offering, and the shoulder of the heave-offering -- all these precious parts are "thy due, and thy sons' due", as Moses says to Aaron. It is your right to have them. Are any here depriving themselves of what is their right, in linking themselves with systems where the altar of the Lord is not, where the clean place is not, and where the holy place is not? May I urge you to inquire into this and to take up your priestly food, and priestly functions in the place where the altar of the Lord is, where the clean place is, and where the holy place is. These belong to the assembly. You may be uncertain as to the assembly -- what it is and where it is, but if you are sincerely desirous to know the Lord will not leave you in uncertainty; He will give you understanding in all things, 2 Timothy 2:7. It is for you to find where the assembly, in the principle of it, is, and see that you are there and that you enjoy your portion in it; in that way you appropriate your priestly food and have part in the priestly functions of the saints of God.
In the last scripture, John 6:66, we have again the thought of some left. You will observe that "from that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him". This was a testing time; here we must be prepared for such times. Many went back. Why did they go back? Because the Lord Jesus was speaking of the most spiritual things, speaking of Himself as the bread of God that came down from heaven. What He was saying was spirit and life. Unbelievers cannot stand such ministry. As the apostle Paul says, "The time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; ... they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears", 2 Timothy 4:3.
The apostle speaks elsewhere of "ten thousand instructors", but here they heap them to themselves. Is there any spiritual order in a heap of teachers? There is no spiritual order, balance or discrimination in it at all. The instruction of Scripture governing levitical service conveys no idea of a heap of teachers. That can apply only to the fitful, irresponsible, natural religious mind, contemplated in the second epistle to Timothy. Think of the disorderly condition of the mind that heaps to itself teachers! It is because of "itching ears" that cannot endure sound doctrine. John 6 is a very long chapter. It is full of details, but every word in it is excellent, for it is about Jesus who is the precious food that came down from God out of heaven. Many of His disciples had been murmuring, now they ceased to walk with Him. Is there any Christian here who is not walking with Jesus? What companionship have you? It may be that someone here is in this class -- one who has turned away and is walking no more with Him. Sometimes murmuring is heard as spiritual thoughts are ministered; one says, "I do not understand what they are talking about". Why do you not understand? Others do. It is because of your state; you murmur, as they did at Capernaum, according to our chapter, and that will soon be replaced, unless you judge yourself, by your turning away from the Lord and those who seek to do His will, and you cast about among the different sects to find a preacher suitable to your ear. According to your present state of mind, it is not a question of what is said: it is how it is said. But that is not the 6th of John. The Lord says, "The words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life". It is what the words are.
They did not all turn away back at Capernaum: thank God in all drifts from the truth some are left. The Lord says to the twelve, "Will ye also go away?"
And He would ask this of every one here tonight. Peter replies, "To whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life". You see how that which is left, dear brethren, is to continue, and to continue in the greatest conception of things, and that the Lord Jesus alone is the centre. He never fails. Who else is there to go to? Cast about and tell me to whom you could go? This is how Peter puts it. It is a negative, but we are often guided negatively. If there is no one, then we must not move at all. There is no one but Christ for the true believer. It is not only that the Lord spoke things about life but He had the words of eternal life. He is the one to stand by, dear brethren. It is an appeal to our hearts, a question of what the Lord has, and Peter as "being one of the twelve". Twelve represents what the Lord can use. After all, what is left is sufficient for the Lord to carry on with. As we were saying, there were two priests left. We can go on with two: "If two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven". These are priests owned of God. But now we have not only two but twelve priests of God, and through the twelve God approaches men in grace. The Lord spoke to the twelve here, the full administrative number. It is not exactly a question of apostleship here, but the great principle conveyed in the number, which always applies. The Lord goes on in relation to it.
He challenges the twelve. Peter says, "We have believed and known", He is a leader in what he says, There are brethren here, dear young people, who have believed and known. All that can be said of some of you is that you "have believed", but there are those around you who have believed and known. That is the way it should read. And what have they believed and known? That Christ is the Holy One
of God. He is the true Aaron of God. Peter and the other disciples, although as I said, representing administration, are, so to speak, His sons. They belong to the true Aaron. They prove themselves to be that. "We have believed and known that thou art the holy one of God". It is a question here of holiness, and Peter shows that he belongs to the true priesthood. But then the Lord's answer is most serious. Even these twelve have to be challenged, searched inwardly. "One of you", He says, "is a devil". Thank God it is not two of you, as with the priests of old; it is just one, but how solemn the indictment. The Lord was not concerned about the external number: He is concerned about quality, and He exposes what is unreal. No one need think he can pass the scrutinizing eye of the Lord. It is not here the word "demon" but "devil", and not that he has one but that he is one. It is to put us on our guard. In the twelve we are reminded that the Lord's administration has a universal bearing. If there is a book of spiritual ministry published, it is for the whole assembly. That is the position. The Lord is administering in relation to the whole; but if there is a devil, He will not let him pass. He is concerned about quality -- reality, holiness. He will carry on to the end, but He will carry on with those who, like Peter, say, "We have believed and known that thou art the holy one of God".
May the Lord grant us help to understand what "is left", and to see how it comes in for the whole thought and appears presently as the result of the mighty workmanship of God as the holy city whose light is most precious, coming down from God out of heaven, having the glory of God.
J.T. I think John presents the assembly from the spiritual point of view; that is, what the assembly is as formed by the Spirit, and its inner privileges; whereas Corinthians presents it in its external character as that in which the divine order is seen here in this world; so that the apostle makes a point of what the outer world might see in the assembly. Therefore he says -- "Let all things be done decently and in order".
Rem. It is manifestly on a lower plane than John 20.
J.T. Yes, I think so. Corinthians is the assembly of God viewed in its local character as that in which divine order is displayed. In that way Corinthians corresponds with the book of Numbers, which sets forth the testimony in the wilderness. I think that the wilderness may be divided into three sections. The first section is what the people under God had known in pure grace, as having been delivered by Him out of Egypt. Then followed the legal period: that is, the people under law; and lastly, the people viewed typically as having the Spirit. This latter is prefigured in the book of Numbers from chapter 21 onwards.
Ques. Would that answer to Romans 5 to 8?
J.T. No. Romans does not give us the collective side, whereas Numbers does. The book of Numbers is in relation to the tabernacle, and the priesthood, and the Levites. This chapter 14 of 1 Corinthians gives us the assembly as convened, and shows the order and operations that are there.
Ques. Will you give an outline of what leads up to this, from chapter 11?
J.T. Well, I think that the details will all come in their right place if we see that it is the assembly viewed as established here under the eye of the world, and not the assembly viewed in its heavenly relationship as in John 20. So the apostle speaks of the Jews, and the gentiles, and the assembly of God. It was a very great thought with God that He should have His assembly. It could be taken account of as an institution set up here, apart from the world, but in the presence of the world.
Rem. In contrast to that which is purely the work of the Spirit of God, and under God's eye.
J.T. Yes, just so; that is more John's line; he presents the inside view, whereas in Corinthians it is the outer aspect -- what is under the eye of the world. It is one thing to be here, in this world, under the grace of God; that is the wilderness position up to Exodus 19. It was all a question of pure grace, and a very wonderful period; but then, if God is to have an organization in the presence of the world, there must be a rule; and the collective testimony stands related to the law. I am not referring to the law now merely as that which brings the knowledge of sin; the law is really a type; it was the declaration of God's rights. The tabernacle was set up in connection with the law, and the book of Numbers depends on the tabernacle; so that the collective testimony in the types stands related to the law. What answers to that in the New Testament is the first epistle to the Corinthians.
Rem. There we get God's order for His house, and God's order has to be observed.
J.T. Yes; so that this epistle is what you may call "the law of the house". The order that is spoken of here is not for heaven, and it necessarily terminates; but what we have in the gospel of John is eternal.
Ques. Does not verse 37 confirm what you say --
"If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord"?
J.T. Yes. We cannot suppose that God would have a system of things here without rule.
E.J.McB. Government is a great principle with God.
J.T. Yes; so that one prominent feature in the temple was the cherubim, not only in the holiest of all, but also upon the walls and upon the doors. The cherubim, I think, represent God's government; the holiness of God is seen in the seraphim. The assembly is a provisional order of things filling up the interval between the ascension of Christ from the earth, and His appearing in glory; and it is established in the way of testimony. That is, God's order is to be displayed under the eyes of men before it is displayed literally in the heavenly city. So that here, it may be noticed, the apostle is concerned about the impression made on those who are without. For instance, if anyone came into the assembly and went out again, he would report what he saw inside -- he would have to confess "that God ... is indeed amongst you"; and he would gather that by observing the order that was found there.
E.J.McB. Because there was inside that which was for the believer and also for the unbeliever.
J.T. Yes, the unbeliever is supposed to be able to take account of what is of God there; so that he is convicted; he is impressed that God is there. I think that is a great point.
Rem. A brother here told us, some time ago, about a person being exercised about the truth, who heard through another of a little meeting near the place where he lived, and he said, 'I cannot say much about it, but what struck me was that God was there'.
J.T. The great thought to lay hold of is that it
is God's assembly; it is not man's; it is the sphere in which God is dominant. Hence the importance of the instructions that the apostle gives; and he intimates that the instructions which were to govern the Corinthian assembly were to govern all the other assemblies; so that you have what one might call a catholic system; that is, the government is the same universally.
E.J.McB. So that order is of great importance, because God is a God of order.
J.T. "God is not a God of disorder but of peace, as in all the assemblies of the saints".
Ques. What part of Corinthians answers to the second part of the book of Numbers?
J.T. The second part of Numbers is not a type of the epistle to the Corinthians, but I think that up to chapter 20 it is. What we see there is the tabernacle and the people set in relation to it; every male in the camp was taken account of "from twenty years old and upwards". I take that to represent believers as having the Spirit. Each was to pitch by the standard of his father's house. I think the age of manhood has reference to one who has the Spirit. The age of thirty would allude probably to the effect of the Spirit. In the book of Numbers what is striking is the order in which everything is arranged. It was a very great sight to behold a company of that magnitude all controlled in relation to the tabernacle.
Ques. In that way would you view what we have here as the instructions following on chapter 11?
J.T. Well, I am speaking of the epistle as a whole. What I would like to make clear, if I can, is the setting of the epistle. The assembly is not viewed here in its heavenly privileges, but as the sphere of God's government and order in the presence of the world during the absence of Christ -- Israel, where these testimonies were, being forsaken. It is God's assembly in contrast to what man might have. Man had much in the city of Corinth, but God had introduced
something for Himself into Corinth, and that was His assembly.
E.J.McB. I think what would confirm that in one's mind is that no unbeliever could enter into what the other side involves -- John 20. It is perfectly clear that what is spiritual is entirely shut up to the believer.
J.T. The doors are shut against the unbeliever.
Ques. Would you connect what you were saying with the announcement of His death? "Ye do shew the Lord's death till he come".
J.T. Yes. The announcement is a testimony here where Christ died. It does not say so, but in the context it is clear. Christ was put to death by men, and the fellowship is the fellowship of His death. That places the world at issue with God, and at issue with Christ; and we take sides against it. The world has expressed its estimate of Christ, and we express ours. The death of Christ is the expression of the world's hatred, and we take account of it in another way: it is the centre of our fellowship.
Rem. That would be in chapter 10, would it not?
J.T. Yes, but it is also alluded to in chapter 11. It says -- "Ye announce". The point in chapter 10 is to show that the individual member of the assembly is not independent; he is in a fellowship. Chapter 10 shows that no individual member of the assembly can do what he pleases in the world; and chapter 14 shows that he cannot do what he pleases in the assembly. So that in either case it is to set aside independency. Even if you have gift, your gift does not warrant you to be independent, for it is not given for you, but for the assembly.
Ques. Would chapter 10 be the individual side, and chapter 11 the collective side?
J.T. The point in the former is that you are to behave yourself rightly outside when your brethren are not looking at you. The question is -- are you an honest man? You have committed yourself to a
fellowship, and you are where, perhaps, your brethren cannot see you. In the assembly they can see what you are doing, and hear what you are saying; so that the test is put to us as to whether we are going to be true men. An individual who links himself with the world really links the company with the world. That brings in another question, and that is, if you are not true you have to do with more than the saints, you have to do with Christ. So the apostle says, "Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?" You may provoke your brethren for a while, but if you provoke Christ. He will overcome you; you will come to grief. I believe that the so-called Christian world is at issue with Christ in that way. They have taken His name, and they are not true to it, and hence He is jealous, and "jealousy is cruel as the grave". So that the Lord has power, and it will go ill with Christendom in time. The Lord has long patience. He waits long; but whether it be against the individual or the system, the Lord is bound to overcome. In meetings where there is looseness of walk and independence, the brethren may have to bear with it long, and perhaps have not the power to deal with it, but in the end it is as sure as can be that the person involved finds himself in a position which everybody discerns to be the judgment of the Lord.
E.J.McB. I suppose that is seen in the expression, "For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep".
J.T. That is in regard to conduct in the assembly, but the principle is true. It is most serious to link up Christ with the world; it is connecting Him with what is idolatrous. The religious world is the Babylonish world. "Pure religion" is all right, but if it is divorced from Christ it is Babylonish.
E.J.McB. What you have been saying is very solemn, that you move about in a sphere where your
brethren cannot see you, but where the Lord takes account of you.
J.T. It was the Babylonish world from which the people of Israel suffered, after they left Egypt. "I will transport you beyond Babylon" came in after the golden calf, and we know that Balaam came from that direction, and the goodly Babylonish garment was in Jericho. These are elements of the Babylonish world. The people thought of going back to Egypt; but they did not go back to Egypt, they went to Babylon. I do not think that christendom intends to go back to the world in that sense -- it is too proud for that. It would not go back into naked paganism, because the light of christianity has added immensely to the world, and it makes the assumption of being superior to anything that ever existed before.
Rem. To maintain the assembly order of which you have been speaking, we must have the "love" which is set forth in chapter 13. Gift in itself will not maintain it. Is not that why chapter 13 is put between chapters 12 and 14?
J.T. The machinery could not run properly without chapter 13; it is like oil.
Rem. Chapter 14 begins by saying -- "Follow after love".
J.T. If we follow the teaching of the chapters, I think the 11th sets Christ before the affections, and the 12th is the activity of the Spirit in ministry showing how He operates in the gifts; and then the 13th is that which all may have. It will not do to say that such an one has not much gift, or that he has gift; the question is, What have you got? There is no reason why each one should not have something. It is a poor thing to depend upon those who have gift; the question with each should be. What have I got?
Ques. Do you think gifts are to be acquired? It says, "Covet earnestly the best gifts".
J.T. I think desire divinely produced, qualifies us for the gift, and God bestows gift accordingly.
Ques. What would be the "best gifts" the apostle refers to?
J.T. That is the gift of prophecy, as the apostle shows. The point is, what can I make most use of for the edifying of the assembly; so that if you have not what is treated of in chapter 13, viz., love, gift is only a detriment.
Ques. The whole point in chapter 14, I suppose, is edification?
J.T. Yes, that is the point; so that the apostle says he would rather speak five words to edification than a thousand in an unknown tongue. The assembly is an organism, and each member of it is essential to it; so the question for each is -- What can I do?
Ques. I was thinking of the verse in Ephesians which says, "Unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ". How do you understand "according to the measure of the gift of Christ?"
J.T. That shows that each has something, and what he has is according to the wisdom and giving of Christ. It is according to Christ's measure -- you have nothing to complain of. Then there are specific gifts which He gives to certain ones who are qualified, and that also for the edifying of the assembly.
Rem. You would say that He gives what each vessel can hold; it is according to His giving. He would not give anyone that which he would not be able to hold.
J.T. No. He gives according to the capacity. Now, the question in chapter 14 is, as to the part you take in the assembly, and the point is that you are to act intelligently.
Rem. Such as on the first day of the week?
J.T. Yes, or at any other time, as when we are together for ministry. The wonderful thing is that God has brought into this world a company of persons spiritually intelligent, so that when they come together everything is done in order and intelligently. There is an intelligent faculty in the assembly which is self-governing, so that although there is no president, there is no irregularity and no disorder. The assembly has the mind, the thinking faculty of Christ.
Rem. That was fully seen at the outset.
J.T. Well, we ought to walk in the light of it now. If a brother takes the whole meeting, that is not intelligent, because we should recognize that the assembly of God is composed of intelligent individuals, and the clerical idea is foreign to it. There may be others there who have something to say -- something which the Lord would like to hear, and which the saints would like to hear.
Rem. The spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
J.T. Yes, a person might say, "I could not help getting up, I was pressed". But the point arises, Is it the time for it? If what you have is from the Lord, it will not go from you. I do not think that divine things are harmed for being kept.
Rem. I suppose the coming together contemplated in this chapter would be more for the object of profiting from the gifts; it should be distinguished in that way from the meeting on the Lord's Day, I suppose.
J.T. I think it is; it supposes "the whole assembly come together in one place", and one has a tongue, another an interpretation, and so on. I take it that they rightly have these things before they come, whereas the assembly proper as come together on the first day of the week, is simply for Christ.
Rem. It is a question of what He will do.
J.T. Yes, you are waiting on the Lord. But here it is supposed that you have something; and the question is, what are you going to do with what you have? How are you going to use it? The great point that is emphasised is that we should act intelligently.
Rem. The apostle is not deprecating what they had, but regulating it.
J.T. Quite so. I have carried things for months, and I think we all should until there is an opportunity to give it out. If it is an opportune time, give it out; but the point is, you are not to give out what you have simply because you have it.
E.J.McB. I take your thought to be that whilst we should be always in a state to help one another, what we have should be used intelligently, and spoken at a time when it is to the best advantage.
J.T. Yes; we all go out and gather something "in hunting". Encountering the world is no detriment to us if we are with God -- it is really exercise that helps us spiritually. In the exercise you have gathered up something in regard to Christ, and in time you will have the opportunity of giving out what you have gathered, and then it will help the whole company; so that your very exercise contributes to the welfare of the whole assembly.
Rem. You said that what you get will not suffer by being kept; but will you not suffer if you have it and do not use it?
J.T. Well, the Lord is very gracious; if you miss one opportunity He will give you another -- the Lord is very patient; and your keeping it will tend to give you all the more exercise.
Rem. What is the thought of a "psalm"? (verse 26).
J.T. It is not giving out a hymn.
E.J.McB. I suppose a psalm is something you have learned of God in your ways here?
J.T. Yes, the Psalms are expressions of experience. The book of Psalms is a wonderful book in that way; they rise sometimes to the height of Christ's experience.
Ques. Do you think this refers to the book of Psalms?
J.T. No, I do not think so, unless you found in the book what expresses your experience -- and that is doubtful. I think a psalm is the mode of expressing your experience, so that in that way it is your psalm.
E.J.McB. "Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs".
Ques. You do not get prayer and worship here -- why is that?
J.T. I think because here it is what is external. It is what comes before the eyes of the world that is set forth in this chapter. The apostle is not deprecating the Spirit -- you cannot set Him aside; but "the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets". In other words, a man is greater than his spirit. If he does not see it to be quite the right time to do something, he does not do it.
Rem. Then you would say it involves spiritual intelligence.
J.T. Yes. Then in verse 34 he gives a word to the sisters. If such are exercised, and it is well that they should be, it is commendable; but the assembly is not the place to bring into evidence your relationship with your husband. The relation between husband and wife belongs to the home; hence if you want to ask anything, it is to be done at home.
Rem. Will you say a word as to the expression "in the assemblies"?
J.T. I suppose it is the assembly as known in this world. It is not according to God's order that a woman should be speaking there.
Rem. This chapter contemplates the saints in assembly, and the order and rule that should be seen there, does it not?
J.T. Yes, it supposes what goes on in the assembly when it is convened. It is the place for the exercise of gift.
Ques. Are the gifts here permanent?
J.T. They are permanent in the sense that they continue while the assembly is here.
Ques. Should not the gifts act when we are together?
J.T. Yes, I think so; if we recognize the Spirit. He is sure to act. But then we have to be sure that it is the Spirit, and the test for that is that the ministry recognizes Christ in every way. A gift is a most valuable asset to the assembly, and any company where there is gift has an asset which it ought to appreciate.
Rem. What we should seek is what is spiritual -- "God is a Spirit".
J.T. Yes. The early part of the chapter shows the working, so to speak, of the organism -- that the gifts are subordinate to the whole; but then they have their own distinctive place, and God has set them in the assembly; but in their operation they must not be independent; they are set in relation to the whole company.
Rem. There could be no clericalism if that was observed.
J.T. No. This chapter would be a remedy for clericalism. The point is that it is the "same" Spirit, so that there should not be any schism or division.
Rem. Would you say that the Lord's day morning is not the time for the exercise of gift?
J.T. Yes, I think the Lord's day meeting ought to be simply for Christ. The assembly is for Christ;
the exercise of gift is more for us, though I would not deny that what we have in this chapter is a continuation of the first day of the week.
Rem. You mean, we might have a meeting like this in the middle of the week?
J.T. Yes. The week is a symbol of the whole period of christianity, and we begin afresh every Lord's day; so that all that follows in the week ought to have its beginning on the Lord's day. One would not like to say much about these things, but the more spiritual we are, I think, the more we should seek to get something fresh every week that would give character to the whole week.
Luke 22:7 - 23; 1 Corinthians 11:23 - 26
J.T. It has been suggested that we might consider the Lord's supper, and what accompanies and surrounds it.
The disciples here raise a question with the Lord as to where the passover should be celebrated, and He said to the two who were sent to make preparation, "Behold, when ye are entered into the city, there shall a man meet you, bearing a pitcher of water; follow him into the house where he entereth in. And ye shall say unto the goodman of the house. The Master saith unto thee. Where is the guest-chamber where I shall eat the passover with my disciples? And he shall show you a large upper room furnished: there make ready". There are spiritual thoughts connected with all these directions as to the place.
W.G.B. What is meant by the man with the pitcher of water?
J.T. Well, it suggests something spiritual. It is an earthen pitcher. I think it represents a vessel of the Spirit. It indicates a vessel in which the Spirit of God would be active. "We have this treasure in earthen vessels". It is a wonderful thing that the Spirit of God is indwelling these. The Spirit of God is active in such. But here a man bearing a pitcher is going somewhere. They were to follow him into the house where he was going. There was a distinct lead. It is a great matter in regard to the Supper to see where the man who has the pitcher of water is going.
W.G.B. The heart follows there.
J.T. Yes; indeed. There are many circles now, but does the man with the pitcher go in to each?
W.G.B. The Lord goes where His authority is owned.
J.T. It would appear that the authority of the Lord was recognized there. His rights were recognized. The Lord simply asks where the guest-chamber is.
E.J.McB. You take the man with the earthen vessel to be a type of the active ministry of the Spirit, and the authority of Christ is seen in the fact that there is a demand made for this guest-chamber.
W.G.B. And the demand is acknowledged, too. That is a great help to christians who are perplexed as to the Supper.
J.T. The Supper cannot be dissociated from the assembly.
E.J.McB. Will you say a little on the recognition of the activities of the Spirit?
J.T. Well, it is a wonderful thing that there is here upon earth the ministry of the Spirit. There is a great deal of ministry in christendom; a great deal of activity in service. There is such at the present moment in this city. But what christians should look for is the ministry of the Spirit. There should be a sensitiveness as to whether the activity is spiritual activity. The greatest lack is want of ability to recognize what is of God.
E.J.McB. The effect of spiritual ministry is that the affections of the saints are refreshed.
J.T. Christ is sure to be the subject of spiritual ministry. The Spirit brings forward the things of Christ. One of the greatest thoughts in Scripture is that "God is a Spirit". The Lord said that to the woman of Samaria, and it was in order to set aside all material worship; to set aside in her mind all idea of materialism, and of ceremonialism, in worship. God is a Spirit, and hence every one is put to the test as to spiritual ministry, as to whether we have spiritual sensibilities.
J.R.K. Is the authority of Christ the test as to the true ministry of the Spirit?
J.T. Yes, true ministry is sure to be connected with the authority of Christ. But the authority of Christ is set aside in christendom. If the authority of Christ is not recognized you cannot have the ministry of the Spirit. Where these two thoughts are allied you get the assembly, and hence you can have the ministry of the Spirit. It is the Lord's supper, and that involves His authority. The state of the Corinthians was such that they did not have the Supper, though they did come together.
E.J.McB. There is the Lord's authority on the one hand, and state on the other. At Corinth the state was such that though they had the outward form, yet they had not the Supper.
J.T. The apostle does not hesitate to say that the Corinthians had not the Supper. The question is asked sometimes. Have the religious systems around us got the Supper? Well, have they shown themselves subject to the Lord's authority? We are asked sometimes what have the systems got. Clearly they have not got the Supper, though they take the sacrament.
J.R.K. Would you say the "master of the house" represents the Lord?
J.T. Well, it represents rather the element that recognizes His authority.
W.G.B. What is the spiritual thought in the title of "Teacher"?
J.T. I suppose that in Judaism it carried some moral force with it. A teacher would have certain moral authority. What is taught carries weight with it. The Lord has a moral claim on us. We owe our Christianity to Christ. Every Christian will admit that. Every Christian ought to recognize that the Lord has some moral claim upon him. There could be no doubt that this "master of the house" knew
something about the Lord, because the Lord refers to Himself as the Teacher in the message He sends, and at once he shows the upper room furnished.
E.J.McB. What is your idea as to the "large upper room furnished"?
J.T. It shows that the place we occupy is morally very large.
E.J.McB. There is room for all christians. All christians may have a place there.
J.T. One feels for young believers. Why are not young believers partaking of the Supper? It is for all!
E.J.McB. There is no reason why they should not.
J.T. If you love the Lord you ought to break bread. If there is a response to His affections there should be an opportunity for its outlet. There are a great many absentees. The Lord appeals to the affections of those who are absent. He thinks of them all. He loves each one individually. The Lord loved Martha, Mary, and Lazarus, and He loved them equally. The Supper is really a family affair. Family affairs are of great interest to the family, and the Supper is pre-eminently a family affair. The Lord knows every one in the family; as every man knows each member of his family by name. Mr. Darby gives a very touching note in regard to Luke 24. Speaking of the Lord taking the bread, and blessing it, and breaking and giving it to the two, he says. 'He took the house-father's place'.
J.R.K. Is it because we are defective in regard to the family that we are not at the Supper?
J.T. Where sin is not judged you cannot be at the Supper. But why should we not judge sin? why go on in sin? The Supper is there for you when you do judge it. The passover has reference to Christ as subject to the judgment of God -- made sin. "Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: therefore let us keep
the feast". God provides the passover Lamb for you, but the unleavened bread is what you provide.
J.R.K. Unleavened bread was the only bread that was provided during the whole of the seven days.
J.T. Well, it is the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. One is hardly a christian at all if one is not sincere. It is not hard to understand what sincerity is, and what it is to be true. The great point is to see the spiritual thing. There is little use in talking about spiritual things unless the heart is right. Sincerity and truth are the outcome of the Spirit.
E.J.McB. Will you make a few remarks as to the Supper itself?
J.T. Apart from a spiritual state the Supper is not enjoyed.
Ques. Why is it called Supper?
J.T. Well, because ordinarily supper is the last meal of the day. The last meal of the day is a meal at which you are free. The responsibilities of the day are over. The Lord's day is the suitable time because we are free then. In coming together we should be entirely free in mind from secular affairs. A man can sit down with his family at supper-time free from the cares of the day. It would not be so at breakfast time, or dinner time, for then his responsibilities would be before him. The day would be before him. The idea of a day is responsibility. "Are there not twelve hours in the day". "Work ... while it is day; the night cometh when no man can work". The Supper is to bring the Lord Himself before us.
J.A.M. It is only as we are free in mind that we can take the Supper?
J.T. Yes, we must be free to take it rightly.
E.M. We are sometimes taken up with singing -- 'We praise Thee, glorious Lord, who died to set us free'.
J.T. Well, that is very suitable. There is no
direct injunction with regard to the Supper. We have the Lord's request, and then the precedent established by the early christians. They came together on the first day of the week to break bread.
Christianity is much more a question of what is established by the Lord and His apostles, than by a system of injunctions. Hence the great need to be spiritual. Everything the Lord did had a spiritual thought behind it for us. So when the passover is ended He breaks the loaf, and He gives it to them. That is a spiritual idea. In the Supper there is that which you see, and that which you eat.
E.J.McB. I feel the importance of the suggestion of the last meal of the day; we are entitled to be perfectly free.
J.T. Yes, there is no labour in front of us, so that we can be free to sit down and contemplate Christ. The Lord set something before their eyes. There was the loaf -- what they could see. There are, I think, two thoughts in it. The Lord had no part in the eating of the Supper, but He did something -- He broke the loaf.
Ques. Does the breaking of the bread signify His death?
J.T. Well, it refers to what He did. I think it refers to the fact that His body was to be given in death, and that He gave it voluntarily. It is what He did. It is not what others did to Him. Eating is communion and appropriation. The fellowship is in the eating. There is that which is presented to us objectively in the Supper. There is one thing I cherish very deeply, and that is that the action was a family action, and the Lord was really within the house. As regards the passover, it was also connected with the family. The Supper was instituted after the passover. The Lord was the "house-father". The family were looking to Him. He took the house-father's place. In Luke 24, when He took that place He took bread
and broke it, then He vanished, but they knew Him. They knew Him in the breaking of bread. There was something in the way He did it that made them recognize Him. It was the action that belonged to the head of the house.
J.R.K. The bread was not broken by those who invited Him in. He did it. He broke the bread, and that fact reminded them of what He had done before. As you say, He was taking the house-father's place. It is very beautiful indeed.
E.J.McB. What do you say in regard to the one who may break the bread at the present moment?
J.T. Well, I have seen one take the place of the head of a house in his absence. The eldest son might do that if his father were away; and he might do it in the way his father would do it. So that in the manner in which it was done the absent one would be called to mind. The absent one would be recalled by the act. It is thus, I think, with the person who now breaks the bread. As it is done the Lord Himself would be recalled to the minds and hearts of those of us who are sitting there. The absent one would be recalled by the act. Paul says, "I speak as to intelligent persons", which I think refers to spiritual formation. The breaking of the loaf suggests the Lord to you. I do not understand the word "do" apart from that fact. It recalls the occasion. It recalls the Person.
Rem. You think that the fact of "this do" reminds us of Him, and brings Him prominently before us in that way?
J.T. Yes. The Lord says He will come to us; but it is in a spiritual way. The difficulty is on the spiritual side, not the material side. Why should not the Lord move? Love will move. Did you ever know a stationary love? Love in the essence of it is active. The Lord is actually away. He was present when He instituted the Supper. The very
thought in the Supper contemplates His absence. In the assembly the Lord comes to us in a spiritual way, so that He is personally with us.
E.J.McB. If He were not absent we would not break the bread.
J.R.K. Is it that the Lord moves?
S.L. In a spiritual way it is made a reality to us.
J.T. Why should not the Lord come to you, or to me? The movement is not on your side only, but on His also. The point I am seeking to make clear is that He moves. Surely the Lord can move if He pleases. How well His people know that He moves to them individually. They have proved that many a time.
E.J.McB. If He moves to the individual. He can move to the company.
J.T. He says, "I will come to you". Let us admit the truth. In verses 21 - 23 of John 14, the Lord makes His coming conditional -- conditional on keeping His commandments. "I will ... manifest myself to him". Then He speaks about His word. If we keep His words the Father and He will come. Is not that activity?
E.M. There is movement on His side.
W.K. Instead of leaving them in the desolate condition in which they were. He will come to them.
J.T. I have likened it to a mother saying to her children in the next room, who are calling for her, "I am coming". She cannot go to them just at that instant, but she assures their hearts and sets them in expectation. Our side is to come and partake of the Supper.
W.G.B. He brake it and gave to them. Would not that include the whole thing?
J.T. I think the Spirit distinguishes between the breaking of it, and the eating of it. The Lord did not eat of it. What He did reminds us of Him.
Then there is the announcement of His death. "As often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do show the Lord's death till he come". It is announced to the world, but the world has not any idea of the remembrance of Christ. That is for our hearts. I think it should be a very precious thought to us that the Lord will come; that the Lord is active towards us. I cannot understand why He should be in any way restricted. He came out of heaven to speak to Paul, and He stood by Paul at Jerusalem.
Rem. I think this is bound to make His coming very much more real to us.
J.T. The great thing is to be in a suited state for it. That lies at the bottom of it all. The most simple soul may be conscious of the Lord's presence.
E.M. The effect is very marked on the soul that is conscious of the Lord's presence.
J.T. The Lord is with His people at all times, and He supports us specially in our difficulties and exercises. Matthew 18, I think, is a levitical meeting, because of the burdens of the testimony being taken there. It is a meeting of those who are exercised about the testimony. The Lord is there to support them. The assembly proper has no reference to what is levitical. It is a special season of privilege. That is the moment you would expect the Lord to come to the company. He comes now, indeed, as the heavenly Man. The Lord's affections are there, but in Matthew 18:20, He is supporting us in our exercises in the levitical circle. In the assembly proper He is coming to us as His "brethren". At the Supper you are free from the thought of responsibility. You are free for the moment. The Supper is the link between the wilderness and the land. When you come to the assembly you have Christ and the assembly. The Lord wants the assembly, He wants us to be free. He loves the thought of
the assembly, because it affords to Him what He is seeking. We recall Him according to what He is. He was the Head in Luke 22. He took the initiative in everything. The disciples understood that. They were accustomed to that. He always did it. The Lord was the "house-father". Lordship has reference to official authority. The term Lord's supper is in contrast to the "table of demons". It is in contrast to what is outside, 1 Corinthians 10, has reference to what is outside. Chapter 11 has reference to what is inside. We come together in a scene out of which Christ has been rejected. How essential it is that we should have in our hearts the thought of the Lord's authority over us. Christians in the early days were all spiritual. I think John 14:18, supposes this, hence His "coming" applied to all. But His commandments and His word became a test. The assembly is a spiritual formation, but we come together down here as in flesh-and-blood condition. We come together to eat and drink; but we go on to what is spiritual.
W.G.B. To hear His voice and to see His face! There would be no distance if we knew that in our hearts.
1 Corinthians 10:15 - 22; 1 Corinthians 11:23 - 26
J.T. The Lord seems to have called special attention to the Supper in recent years, and it would seem He has in view that the varied features of the assembly should be revived, so that in result the Spirit and the bride may say, "Come". My thought in suggesting these scriptures is that we might see that in the first, the Spirit emphasises communion, or fellowship; and in the second, the love that is suggested in the Supper, the love of Christ. The love of God is in it too -- that is, in the cup; but even in that the emphasis is on the fact that it is the blood of Christ. The new covenant is in it; but it is, as the Lord says, "in my blood".
Ques. Why the communion first?
J.T. To regulate the saints in their walk and conduct, and to save them from idolatry. If idolatry is admitted there is no hope of the Supper being truly reached. It can only be enjoyed as the communion is kept. The subject is introduced by this: "Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry".
Ques. When he says, "I speak as to wise men", would it be as those who have answered to that exhortation, who have fled from idolatry?
J.T. He addresses them as being wise or intelligent persons; the Lord's supper is not for a congregation merely; it is for an assembly, which suggests that it is composed of intelligent persons. With that in view wisdom would come in. The Supper is for the assembly.
J.R.K. Would you say that the term communion involves obligation?
J.T. It does; obligation to God, to Christ, and to the brethren.
Ques. What is idolatry? How does it affect us?
J.T. Anything that disputes the rights of God in the soul, and God as revealed in the death of Christ. "The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ?" It is what God is in that blood, and anything that disputes that in your heart would be idolatry.
C.A.C. We see in Psalm 16 a blessed Man who was entirely apart from idolatry, and His delight was in the saints. Does this chapter 10 look at the saints as being on that line?
J.H.L. What verses are you referring to in Psalm 16?
C.A.C. "Their sorrows shall be multiplied that hasten after another god: their drink offerings of blood will I not offer, nor take up their names into my lips". He was entirely apart from idolatry, and He said to the saints that are on the earth, and to the excellent, "In them is all my delight".
J.T. That greatly helps this passage. I was remarking the difference between a congregation and an assembly. "I speak as to intelligent persons". That suggests the assembly, or, I should say, those that compose it.
Ques. Does it involve that they are intelligently identified with the name of the Lord?
J.T. I think so, and that what is presented is taken up in a consistent way -- a consistency based on intelligence as to what is presented in the elements. "Judge ye what I say", is an appeal to the intelligence of the saints; the next chapter is rather an appeal to their affections.
P.L. Would you say that, regulated by the authority of divine love, we can give ourselves to the desires of that love? And that chapter 10 brings in more our regulation, and chapter 11 our availability for the desires of that love?
J.T. In chapter 11 the heart is appealed to by the exact words and voice of the Lord Himself.
C.A.C. Is that why you connected the Supper with bridal affections? Is chapter 10 rather moral suitability?
J.T. I think so. In chapter 11 there is the presentation of what the Lord did, and His death appeals to the affections in a peculiar way; the answer to it is, I think, seen in the address to Philadelphia. The Lord promises to the overcomer there, "him will I make a pillar in the temple of my God ... and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God ... which comes down out of heaven, from my God, and my new name". It seems as if the Lord assumes that an overcomer in that period would value the things which were His, especially His God. The gospels are a testimony of what His God was to Him. You were remarking the beautiful reference in Psalm 16 to God and the saints; we see there the refusal of idolatry. The Lord assumes that the overcomer would value that. I think that as the gospels are studied, or rather, as we feed on them, we acquire an appreciation of what God was to Christ here. It is His God, the temple of His God, the name of the city of His God, and finally His own new name.
J.T. The emphasis is on the word new; we have to learn what is new in the name by what we get in the gospels and the epistles.
Ques. Would you say that overcoming according to the verses you quote involves separation from the world and idolatry? Is it answering to the obligation imposed on us in connection with the Supper?
J.T. I think Philadelphia runs parallel with the revival of the Supper.
J.R.K. So that in the breaking of the bread and the drinking of the cup we commit ourselves to a
course in which the name of the Lord is preserved in our minds.
J.T. Yes; what God is in Christ is presented to us in the cup, and then what Christ is as Man in entire devotedness to the will of God is presented in the loaf, and the unity of the saints is added to that.
J.R.K. And to answer to these obligations to God and to Christ and to the brethren is equivalent to overcoming.
C.A.C. The overcomer would take character from Christ, who is the Holy and the True.
J.T. I think the connection with Psalm 16 is very good indeed, because as you consider the path of Christ as presented in the gospel, you see His unswerving devotedness to God. He was holy and He was true; He was not only true to God, but He was true to the saints. He held them and carried them through; He said, "If ... ye seek me, let these go their way". I think that this threefold obligation is of all importance for us if we are to overcome, and it is not exactly here a question of commandments but of consistency. There is an obligation to God, to Christ, and to the saints. And then an additional thought comes in, namely, that if untrue we have the Lord to contend with. If we provoke Him to jealousy we have to contend with Him; we are at issue with Him.
Ques. Would not being true to your baptism preserve you from idolatry?
J.T. The question of consistency is more emphasised in connection with the Supper than with baptism, although consistency is in connection with each. It is in relation to the Supper that he says, "I speak as to intelligent persons: do ye judge what I say". And what does he say? "The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ?" You have part in that; now what about your outward relations? Are you trifling with idolatry?
If I understand rightly, in taking the Supper we come under obligation in the breaking of the bread and the drinking of the cup. We have to be true to that. In John's epistle we are said to be "in him that is true, in his Son Jesus Christ". He was the true One.
C.A.C. If we cherish the thought of the One who was here for the will of God, it morally necessitates that we should be here for that will.
J.T. Jesus Christ is the true One who unswervingly carried out the will of God, and the loaf speaks of that; and hence the obligation is ever with one to be true to that. The gospels afford much food for the soul; one has to feed on Christ as the One who carried out the will of God.
Ques. Would it involve consistency with His death?
J.T. Yes; it is really consistency with Christ, including His death, because it is a question of what He was here. These things would serve to bring out the features of Christ in a formative way in the saints, so that there might be conformity to Christ. The book of Proverbs brings in the woman of worth, one who can be confided in when the husband is away. The question comes to me, Can I be trusted in the absence of the Lord, or we might say, in the absence of the brethren? "The heart of her husband doth safely trust in her".
When we come to chapter 11 we have what is collective. Chapter 10 is the bearing of the Supper on the individual, as to whether I am true; and one can understand how the Lord watches the saints to see the development of this element of holiness and truthfulness. In chapter 10 I am obligated in regard of all others as to my movements; it is a question of my considering for them so as not to compromise them by my actions, or relations. But when we come to chapter 11 it is the collective side; we sit down
together, and in doing so one always desires to hold oneself in relation to the whole assembly.
C.A.C. You mean that your heart cherishes the thought of the whole company.
J.T. That is what I was thinking, the Lord has nothing less before Him than that.
Ques. Does the word, "This is my body, which is for you", embrace the whole assembly?
J.T. That includes every one of the saints, and you want to include them all too. I have been greatly interested of late in the thought of the tribes. I think there is a danger of discrediting the Old Testament, but it is written for us. And the way the tribes are spoken of helps us in regard of what is in the mind of the Lord about the assembly. "This is my body, which is given for you", necessarily includes all the saints, and so as we sit down together we are in assembly relations; we think of the tribes. Moses "was king in Jeshurun, when the heads of the people and the tribes of Israel were gathered together". Deuteronomy 33:5. They are seen there typically, so to say, in assembly order, and in that order Christ is enthroned in their affections. And that is what the Supper is intended to effect.
In sitting down to the Supper we are in assembly relations; it is an assembly function; and in holding ourselves in that relation we are holding ourselves for Christ; we are for Christ as He has been for us. I was speaking yesterday of Jacob's appeal in Genesis 49:1, 2. "And Jacob called unto his sons, and said. Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days. Gather yourselves together, and hear, ye sons of Jacob; and hearken unto Israel your father". In verse 2 the word is changed; it is really "assemble yourselves". It may seem a small difference, but the word is changed. We come together, that is our act; but as together we are in the light of the assembly, and in
the assembly we are to hear what the Lord says, and the Supper has a voice.
J.R.K. Would you say that if we are duly affected by the Lord's love we cannot leave the saints out of our affections?
J.T. You cannot; you want all the tribes. "The tribes of Israel were gathered together". Now the point is to hear what the Lord has to say. So the scripture read in 1 Corinthians 11 begins with the saints in assembly. It is not a congregation where some human leader speaks, but the assembly in which Christ speaks; He appeals to us. And every one is addressed as an intelligent person. It is in assembly the Lord would open His thoughts and heart to us.
J.H.L. How far can that be taken up today?
J.T. Well, if you hold yourself in the light of the whole assembly the Lord speaks to you; you get communications and manifestations as at the beginning. Present conditions of course necessarily modify this in a certain way. But the assembly remains here, the object of Christ's affections; and the Supper being revived, the Lord would have us, as partaking of it, to hold ourselves in assembly relations, and to clothe ourselves with assembly thoughts.
C.A.C. You have really found the assembly according to what it is in the heart of Christ; you have found it there.
J.T. I was going to say in regard to the high priest's breastplate, and the names according to the tribes being in it, that if we get near to the Lord we find that the whole assembly is in His heart. The Lord says, "At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you". John 14:20. The Lord has great pleasure in christians, however few, holding themselves for Christ in relation to the assembly. While no company, however large, can
say that they are it, saints can hold themselves in that relation. You save yourself from any pretension to be it by holding yourself to be in that relation.
Rem. It must be a great joy to the Lord that the saints should hold themselves thus.
J.T. I know it is a great joy to His heart, because it brings the features of the assembly before Him. He addresses Philadelphia as if He were speaking to the assembly: "I have loved thee ... I also will keep thee". He had nothing less than the whole assembly in His mind in speaking thus. John 14 emphasises the individual, but that individual would think of the assembly.
J.R.K. Would you not say that there would be enlargement of heart in that?
J.T. I think the Lord will bring about enlargement of affection, that we may have all the saints in our hearts.
C.A.C. And love to all the saints is really the basis for Colossian and Ephesian truth. Where there was love to all the saints there was a condition to which the truth could be opened out.
J.T. I think if we hold to that, if we cling to the brethren, the Lord will grant them to us; if we cling to them, they will not turn away from us.
J.R.K. It is interesting that the name is Philadelphia, which means brotherly love.
J.T. I believe there is a meaning in that.
C.A.C. You mentioned earlier in the meeting the emphasis which the Lord put on the words, "My God", "the city of my God", etc. Had you in mind that the Supper has in view the setting of the saints in those blessed relations with God that are so precious to the heart of Christ?
J.T. I think that is very beautiful. "My God and your God".
C.A.C. Is the cup really leading on to that?
J.T. I think it belongs in what God is to us.
J.T. Yes; because the life was in it. God from the outset claimed the blood. It had in view the life of Jesus, for that was the only life worth claiming. God claimed it, but He gave it up for us; it was poured out for us. Hence we see the love of God in the cup. I greatly value the reference to Psalm 16 -- what God was to Him -- His God.
J.H.L. Are you thinking of the expression, "I have set the Lord always before me"?
J.T. Yes, and there are one or two other beautiful expressions. "The Lord is the portion of mine inheritance and of my cup: thou maintainest my lot. The lines are fallen unto me in pleasant places; yea, I have a goodly heritage. I will bless the Lord, who hath given me counsel: my reins also instruct me in the night seasons. I have set the Lord always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved. Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope. For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore". That was what God was to Him; He was His God. It is in the temple of that God that the overcomer is to be made a pillar.
C.A.C. It is really the joy of the Lord to set His saints in the blessedness of knowing His God.
J.T. Yes; He can say that the saints that are in the earth, and the excellent, are all His delight. He views them as set in relation to His God. And should not that find an answer in us as regards the saints? And the Supper is the centre of all this; all these things centre there.
C.A.C. I do not think there is anything more precious, or that more affects my heart, than to see how all christianity centres in the Supper.
J.T. With regard to the tribes of Deuteronomy 33. Christ is seen typically as supreme in their affections. Then in Psalm 122 the tribes are seen going up to Jerusalem. "Jerusalem is builded as a city that is compact together: whither the tribes go up, the tribes of the Lord, unto the testimony of Israel (or Israel's custom, New Translation, note), to give thanks unto the name of the Lord". It was Israel's custom that the tribes should go up. The Lord is the originator of every christian custom, and it is well to note these customs. The Supper is a custom, but something else goes along with the Supper -- that is, the going up of the tribes. That is, I think, suggestive of what follows the Supper. The Lord inaugurated a custom when they sang a hymn, and then went to the mount of Olives. That would be a custom which the spiritual would ever afterwards remember and take note of.
Ques. Does going to the mount of Olives indicate a change after the Supper?
J.T. It does; I think it has reference to heaven. Bethany is an earthly connection, but the mount of Olives is a heavenly connection.
Ques. Do you think a hymn should always follow the Supper?
J.T. In a general way; it is a time for enjoying Christ's love for His own; this would tend to liberty for what is to follow. A hymn is the outcome of what you have enjoyed; it would be praise to the Person.
Rem. A very precious custom that.
J.T. I think it is; I hope we shall be found following it.
P.L. In Psalm 15 we have the thought of ascending, have we not? Would you say Psalm 16 shows
the features of those who could ascend, and now in Psalm 122 we find them ascending together?
J.T. Yes. In John 8 the Lord went to the mount of Olives alone when the others went to their own homes. That is why I think it is linked with heaven; it is where He found His retreat. But afterward "He went according to his custom to the mount of Olives, and the disciples also followed him". Luke 22:39 (New Trans.).
In Psalm 122 there is much intelligence, much recognition of what is in Jerusalem. "Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee. Peace be within thy walls, and prosperity within thy palaces. For my brethren and companions' sakes, I will now say, Peace be within thee. Because of the house of the Lord our God I will seek thy good". I think that is something like the language of a Philadelphian overcomer. The tribes of Jehovah would represent the assembly in its order before God: a company that ascends, and gives thanks to His name.
Rem. I suppose the character of what follows the Supper should help the saints to go up.
J.T. I think one who gives the lead in a spiritual way greatly helps. It does not say who gave out the hymn, but I have no doubt the Lord did.
Rem. So the Supper puts us together in view of going up.
J.T. I think so. As assembled together we have the custom of going up.
C.A.C. You would not begin the meeting by addressing the Father? I have observed that if a meeting has started by addressing the Father it descends instead of going up.
J.T. No. It is important to have intelligence in what one does; one should act according to the light that governs the position. There should be a gradual ascent. At the beginning we assemble ourselves, but as together there is something additional; we are set
in such relation to one another as to be assembled from the divine side. We are together in assembly then. In coming together we hold ourselves in that relation, yet there is an influence that sets us in the assembly from the divine side, and there Christ is supreme; He is King in Jeshurun. A hymn to the Lord is very becoming then; we recognize Him as Lord coming amongst us in view of our being in the good of His headship.
J.R.K. When in the good of that, would He lead on to the Father?
J.T. As King in Jeshurun He is supreme in our affections, but soon becomes Head with us. Then it is a question of letting Him have His way, and the movement upward would be through Him to the Father.
Ques. Would the title "Lord Jesus" convey the same thought as King in Jeshurun?
J.T. It would. It is an affectionate reference to His place of authority. No one can say Lord Jesus except by the Spirit. "The Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed" is an affectionate reference to Him.
J.T. This chapter is in view of testimony during the Lord's absence; and the Lord's words to His disciples in chapters 13 and 14 were calculated to impress upon them His great interest in them. Chapter 13 shows us how we are to act towards one another. The Lord indicates the spirit in which we are to act one towards another; and as that spirit is acquired among the saints you have an element of sustenance. There are various elements of sustenance which these chapters indicate, and I think one element is that there is to be mutual affection. As the spirit of Christ is apprehended and acted upon there is an element of sustenance, which is of great value during His absence.
E.J.McB. It is intended to have a great effect upon our hearts.
J.T. We all know that in natural things a family spirit has great weight with us. We know how families are inter-dependent. It is a very beautiful thing to see family affection and family interest, and we know how that where things are right naturally, the spirit of affection is an element of mutual sustenance. I think that is the point in chapter 13. Then, I think the first half of chapter 14 is objective; that is -- the gain of having Christ as a Man in heaven. He knows exactly what we are going through upon earth, and He is to be the object of our faith in heaven. He says -- "Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me". In spite of all outward failing and breakdown, the Lord's provision for His own remains -- Himself as an object of faith -- the Son, and the place He is preparing for us in the Father's house -- the saints' eternal home. Then the second half of the
chapter would be the provisional arrangement, or order of things, which the Lord has instituted here whilst He is away, it is His provision in view of His absence. The Spirit's presence down here for ever. Then the unconditional promise -- "I will not leave you orphans, I am coming to you". Then the conditional promise to those who keep His commandments and His words when declension has set in. Where these conditions exist the Father and the Son find out that soul. Christ manifests Himself to him and divine Persons make their abode there. These divine manifestations are realized in the power of the Spirit.
E.J.McB. You get that side of things with the thought of Comforter.
J.T. Yes, the presence of the Comforter here, and the things which depend upon it; divine manifestations, etc. In the Old Testament divine manifestations and activities were largely in connection with angelic agency, as, for instance, in the case of Abraham. But now all is changed. Angels are not used in that way. There are angels sent forth to "minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation", as Hebrews 1 shows; but all direct communications now are dependent upon the Spirit. So that the gain of the Spirit is enlarged upon in the second half of chapter 14.
E.J.McB. Would the gain of the Spirit in the second half of the chapter lead us into the objective side of things in the first half?
J.T. Yes, I think they run together; as we were saying at the outset, the point in view is the testimony. They were to be interested in His things whilst He was away, and there would be serious difficulties to encounter. But He encourages their hearts by saying, "Let not your heart be troubled". He shows really that His going away would be in their favour, and that they would be infinitely
superior to their surroundings. So that these are assembly chapters. They have reference to our position here ecclesiastically; and the Lord shows what resources we can count upon. If He were to continue here personally all these considerations would not be needed. But He is not to be here, because chapter 13 begins with the thought that He is to depart out of the world to the Father.
Ques. What do you mean by ecclesiastical position?
J.T. I mean "assembly" position; it is a question of persons left here together who love Christ, who have the Spirit, and who are to look after His interests while He is away. If there is a head of a family, every right-minded member of that family would do all that is possible to maintain what is the mind of the head. The Lord assumes that here, that each one would be interested, and He shows what would be available to such. If your heart is interested it is an immense thing to see the things that are available here on your behalf.
Rem. So that the presence of the Spirit is of the greatest moment.
J.T. One great essential feature in those who form the assembly is mutual affection. The Lord says, "That ye love one another, as I have loved you". So that we have to consider the kind of love the Lord manifested to His own -- that is the kind of love we are to express to each other. The company Christ left here manifested a most touching character. The only authority they had to go by when He left them was the Scriptures; and the Spirit shows in Acts l that they were engaged with the Scriptures, and in prayer. They were together, and united; so that Acts 1 shows that the company to which the Spirit came was morally suited to receive Him.
Rem. You would say God had prepared a vessel for the reception of the Spirit?
J.T. Yes; I think so. And what the assembly began with is what is to continue. You cannot associate the Spirit with anything that does not recognize the authority of the Lord; because Christ here connects their love and the keeping of His commandments with the gift of the Spirit.
Ques. Why is He called the Spirit of truth here?
J.T. Well, I suppose it is in contrast to the spirit that is in the world. It is an immense thing to have the Spirit of truth, because if He is allowed His place everything is recognized in its true relation. Everything is adjusted by the Spirit of truth. What came out in the assembly was that every divine institution had its place and recognized value; so that God's world took form in that way. Things in the world are not true. The idea of truth, I think, is set forth in the principle that builders recognize. If buildings are not put up on that principle they collapse.
E.J.McB. Is not Christ, in that way, the full expression of truth?
J.T. Yes, in Christ's ministry everything was adjusted; everything had its true place according to God. You will find that in the discourses of the Lord everything was adjusted. So that now the Spirit has come into the assembly to have that maintained livingly here. Thus in his first epistle John tells us the Spirit is the truth. The idea of truth is, that everything is adjusted according to God's mind. Everything in the moral system is out of joint, but when Christ appeared, in so far as His ministry went everything was set in order. So the coming in of the Spirit is for the establishing of the principle of God's world. Every divine institution has its relative place, and is recognized according to its true value. Take marriage, for instance: marriage is a divine institution. In Christ it has its proper place; Moses allowed divorce, but that was on account of their
state. It is not really according to the truth to allow divorce. Hence Christ did not admit of it. He says, "From the beginning it was not so". So that the further the world gets away from God, the greater disregard it has for divine institutions. The presence of the Holy Spirit is to maintain everything in its true relation.
Ques. In what way would you connect the ministry of Paul with what you are speaking of now?
J.T. Well, the ministry of Paul really comes in later. Its place is in chapter 16 of John. There the Spirit would take of the Lord's things and would show them to them; but in chapter 14 He is to remind them of all that Christ taught. The conditions to which the Spirit came afford one of the most interesting considerations. I believe saints are too loose in regard to the Spirit. You cannot connect the Spirit with what is morally unsuitable to God.
Rem. "Whom the world cannot receive".
J.T. Quite so. The Spirit is far more jealous as to what is due to God that we are liable to think. Take all the activity in the evangelical world, as it is called; there is so much that you cannot connect the Spirit with, for it is not true according to God.
Rem. The Spirit is called the Comforter.
J.T. The point is "another Comforter", that is, the Lord's place would be taken up by another. If we had been acquainted with the Lord as the disciples were, we would have an appreciation of this. Many of us do not miss the Lord at all. We do not feel that there is a great blank in the world; but you miss your father and mother when they are removed, because there is a link of affection there. If we loved the Lord more we would miss Him.
Rem. We are tested in that way.
Rem. Was the coming of the Comforter provisional?
J.T. Yes; only He remains with us for ever. He takes the place of Christ whilst He is away: but whilst Christ is present the Spirit recedes. That is not derogatory to the Spirit, because the Spirit always makes Christ prominent. He always remains with us, but there are circumstances in which the Spirit of God is prominent, as, for instance, in the beginning of Acts. Peter's explanation was that "This is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel". He says that these men are not filled with new wine; they were filled with the Spirit. There are conditions in which the Spirit is prominent, and there are conditions in which Christ is prominent. When the Lord takes His place in the assembly. He is supreme. Of course, the Spirit is always the power, whether it be of ministry, or affection, or praise, or worship; He is always the subjective power. But when the Lord takes His place in our midst it is evident that He must be supreme. But this chapter contemplates the Spirit here and Christ absent.
Ques. What is the difference between the presence of the Spirit, and the presence of the Lord?
J.T. Well, the Spirit never presents Himself as an object of worship. The Spirit was to abide -- "He may abide with you for ever". The Spirit never leaves us. But the Lord does not say that of Himself.
Rem. The Spirit will never leave the assembly.
J.T. No. He is here now instead of Christ. But the Lord comes for the assembly. The Spirit's office is to take care of the assembly whilst Christ is absent. But the Lord does not leave it to the Spirit to take us home -- He comes Himself.
Ques. What is the force of the scripture where it is said the Spirit descended like a dove and abode upon Him?
J.T. It showed that God had now a permanent resting place in Christ; it showed also that Christ was a divine Person. I think the allusion is to Noah's
dove; she could find no rest for the sole of her foot. Genesis 8:9. The Spirit, you may say, found no resting place in the Old Testament; until Christ appeared He found no abiding place.
E.J.McB. Then, as you were saying, there was a Person who was morally suited to the Spirit.
Ques. What is the difference between God being "amongst you" in 1 Corinthians 14, and the Spirit being there?
J.T. That is God; "God is in you of a truth". God is always the supreme object of worship and veneration. "One body and one Spirit ... one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all"; and the wonderful fact was that He was in the christian company.
Rem. You spoke of the Spirit as being the agency by which everything is realized. Do you mind saying a word more upon that?
J.T. I remarked what I think is evident, that in the Old Testament God acted generally through the agency of angels -- the Spirit was there, but divine manifestations, etc., were by angelic agency. But it is not so now. He comes now in a spiritual way. The presence of the Holy Spirit here involves that things are made to depend upon Him. One can readily see that in the Old Testament there were very great limitations; but there are no limitations now.
Ques. When the Lord comes now, is it that He comes Himself?
J.T. Yes, He comes Himself. We must always maintain that the Spirit is not Christ. There is Christ personally, and the Spirit personally. How the Lord may come is another matter; that is left very largely for the soul to discover. But He comes in a spiritual way; and the thought of His coming is introduced after the Spirit's coming is announced.
E.J.McB. You said that when Christ is prominent the Spirit recedes. I think that is very important.
J.T. Yes, of course when you get a man speaking in the power of the Spirit it is Christ in a sense; but the Spirit is prominent; that is 1 Corinthians 12; it is a question of the activities of the Spirit.
Rem. The Lord is careful to show, in John 20, that it is He Himself, not a spirit, who came to them.
J.T. Yes; and the fact that the doors were shut shows that He is independent of what is material. The Lord comes in a spiritual way; but He comes.
Rem. Would you connect Colossians with that? It has often been noticed that the Spirit is not mentioned there.
J.T. The point, I think, in the epistle to the Colossians is to meet the declension, and the apostle insists upon Christ -- "As therefore ye have received the Christ, Jesus the Lord, walk in him". He brings forward Christ in Colossians, and I think the point was to establish Him firmly in the affections of the saints. God had wonderfully favoured them -- because really the gentile is in view there -- so he says, "Christ in you the hope of glory". It was a wonderful thing for a gentile company to know that Christ was there amongst them.
Ques. Would you distinguish that from what we were speaking of in John 14?
J.T. In Colossians it is not a question of the assembly convened; it is a question of the state of the saints. As the Lord says, "ye in me, and I in you". We are in His affections, and He is in ours. But this is different from His coming to us, see also 2 Corinthians 13:5.
Rem. Is not John 14 a question of state?
J.T. In John 14 the company is in view. The Spirit came to them collectively, we know. They were gathered around the Lord when He was speaking to them here. I think the coming promised in
verse 18 was enjoyed collectively. Coming to a faithful individual is spoken of afterwards.
Rem. You say there are times when Christ is prominent, and there are other times when the Spirit is prominent.
J.T. Yes; I think at a meeting like this it is the activity of the Spirit, if there is anything at all. His function is to instruct, and so forth. All is under Christ, we know, but the point emphasised here is "another Comforter"; that is, One who took the Lord's place. If you take a meeting for prayer: there it is a question of the exercises of the saints engaged levitically; they are bearing burdens. But the idea of the assembly is that it is free for Christ. But in prayer we are thinking of care, and of needs that exist. We come together for that purpose; hence it is not properly an assembly meeting, because the levitical idea is that people are bearing burdens. Then the Scriptures contemplate other meetings. Jude speaks of "love feasts", for instance. The apostle says, "not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together"; but there is one special occasion that the Scriptures indicate. There is no injunction in regard to the Lord's day. It is not enjoined; therefore one would not enjoin it on the world. It is no credit to us that the world keeps the Lord's day: the Lord's day was never intended for it. It was a spiritual idea that faith laid hold of, and Acts shows that the saints in the early days recognized it in that way. They came together on that day. The Lord set them the example as in every case. He came to the company on two successive Lord's days, and the saints, I think, were quick to discern what He had done; and thus they would come together. If the Lord was pleased to come into their midst on two successive Lord's days, I would say it was well worth while to come together on that day. Besides, He rose from the grave on that day.
Rem. It was the resurrection day.
J.T. Yes. It was a day of immense importance to Him. He honoured it in that way. Many thoughts enter into the first day of the week. The seventh day has reference to the creation, but the first day of the week refers to christianity: there is no end to it. It refers to what is spiritual, and so entirely new.
Rem. Would you not say that the Lord counted on their affections, and they would recognize the way He came in?
J.T. The testimony of the Scriptures is, that they were together before He came in. It may have been for a brief moment, but at any rate the moment was there. As to the second visit it says, "His disciples were again within, and Thomas with them. Jesus comes, the doors being shut".
Ques. Would you say that the Spirit gathers us together?
J.T. Yes, I would, but, as loving one another, we come together.
Ques. And when we are gathered together in that way by the Spirit, does the Lord come in?
J.T. I think the Lord would come to us as we are prepared for it.
E.J.McB. Do you think that one of the main features with regard to the Lord's coming is that He comes to those who miss Him?
J.T. Yes. He comes to those who love Him, and so feel that He is away.
E.J.McB. You mean He comes to affection.
J.T. I think if you really want the Lord He will answer to affection. But we must never put the Lord in the position of acting automatically. There are many who seem to think that the Lord must act, but you can never regard the Lord in that position, because He is sovereign, and He always reserves His sovereign rights. Even if He is to come, you can hardly say that He must come, though the conditions are there. He will not disappoint affection; but I put in the
provision because many think that because we are together the Lord is there. That will not do at all. You are making the Lord act automatically, and disregardful of the state of the meeting, if you say that.
Ques. Is it to the company He comes?
J.T. This chapter shows that He comes to the individual. Whatever extremities we may be reduced to, the Lord will not forsake us. If there is only one left. He will come to him; and that ought to be a great stay to our hearts now.
Rem. One would see in this chapter the history of the assembly. First of all He comes to the company without a provision; then He comes to the individual who loves Him and keeps His commandments.
J.T. Because the Lord there assumes that the early assembly affections were there. He assumes that they all loved Him, which they did, hence there is no condition stated in verse 18.
Rem. You said a moment ago that the Lord comes to the individual; that is not excluding the fact that He comes to the assembly.
J.T. The point here is that the Lord makes the provision for us no matter to what extremity we are reduced. To any one keeping His word. He and the Father would come. So that your heart is sustained; no matter how extreme the day, the Lord promises you a visitation. If He comes to one, He can come to two. I do not know that we can take any other ground than that now, that is, that the Lord will come to the individual.
Rem. There might be a hundred gathered, and five out of the hundred realize His presence.
E.J.McB. In admitting that He comes to the individual, I think it covers the whole point: because if you admit one individual, you can multiply that to any number.
Ques. Is it a question of conditions when the Lord comes?
J.T. Yes. That was why I said the chapter was prophetic; the Lord was casting His eye down upon the whole history of the assembly, and what He shows is that the individual who loves Him and keeps His words, is not deprived of the greatest privileges that the assembly primarily enjoyed.
Ques. What is the difference between Matthew 18 and this?
J.T. Matthew 18 is levitical. Matthew contemplates administration down here in the assembly, and the Lord indicates that even if they were reduced to two or three. He would be with them to support them. But here He is thinking of you, what you need for your affections -- not support exactly, but what your heart requires. If you love Him you want to see Him. I quite admit that the Levites did not go inside, even to the first holy place; because prayer really is at the golden altar, not at the brazen altar, therefore you are a priest in prayer. Matthew 18 contemplates us gathered in relation to the Lord's interests, and the promise contained in it always holds good.
E.J.McB. Do you not get the fact that He comes to the individual beautifully portrayed in John, at Patmos?
J.T. Yes; it was to give revelations, however. But here the affections are fully met. Now, if a person comes to live with you, it is not a question of supporting you, but of enjoying your affections. One might say that because things are so reduced we are deprived of the earliest privileges of the assembly. But the Lord shows that we are not. I think that is an immense thing.
E.J.McB. If one were in the enjoyment of this individually, would it not be a great stimulant to others-that many more might enjoy it?
J.T. Yes, I think so. We would seek to get others
into it. The idea very much has been to go into the world and convert people. But we want to get souls into the assembly. Present-day evangelisation means that if a soul is converted he is told to go back to where he came from. That is what they are told. There is not a bit of heart in that. That does not bring the soul to Christ. It is not the spirit of Christ, because the spirit of Christ is that He went to the sheep, and laid it on His shoulders, and brought it home. That is the spirit of the evangelist. I think it is very beautiful to go through Luke and see the spirit of the true evangelist. He put the sheep on His shoulders, and brought it home.
Ques. Would not that be the primary thought of the evangelist?
Rem. The Father was not satisfied until He had the prodigal home.
J.T. I do not think the present evangelical activity would be supported a single hour were it not that it builds up the systems of men. Christendom is going to pieces, and the leaders want their systems maintained; and they are very glad to have them maintained in that way. But if it be a question of taking souls to Him, the systems collapse; and so the true evangelists get no support from them. If one went into one of the churches, and preached separation, and any left, it would to that extent weaken the system.
Ques. Will you say a word on the twentieth verse? "At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you".
J.T. The Lord, I think, refers to the present moment, the Spirit's day, when we are conscious of these things, "that I am in my Father" -- that is, that He is in His affections; "and ye in me" -- I take that to mean that we are in His affections. All that is now known by the Spirit. The fact is that the disciples had a great deal more than they knew about
when Christ was here. He says so in this chapter -- verse 9; but the presence of the Spirit makes it all evident to us.
Ques. What about verse 19? "Because I live, ye shall live also".
J.T. Is it not a very precious thought that the Lord makes our life to depend upon His life? If He lives, we live. As David said to Abiathar, "he that seeketh my life seeketh thy life".
Ques. Does the Lord give us credit for what we are not really up to?
J.T. Yes He does indeed; it is the greatest comfort I know that the Lord views our actions from His point of view. He says, "against the day of my burying hath she kept this". I do not know that Mary understood it, but the Lord understood it; and she understood it afterwards.
Ques. What is the difference between verse 15, "If ye love me, keep my commandments", and verse 23, "If a man love me, he will keep my words ... and we will come ... and make our abode with him?"
J.T. I think the latter is to encourage the individual.
Rem. I was thinking of what the Lord says, "I will not leave you comfortless, I will come to you". He did not say He was coming to abide.
J.T. I think verse 23, as I said, is to encourage the individual. It is even more than that which the company had. The Father and the Son would come. It is an immense encouragement. It is not that He comes to such in circumstances that are strictly individual; He comes to us to where we are ecclesiastically. The whole point is, where are we in our souls in regard to the testimony? Things have got very small, and very weak; but the Lord is not hindered by that. So that John is exiled on account
of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus; but the Lord came to him there.
E.J.McB. The Lord contemplates an individual who wants to be true to Him; but things are so low down that there may be only one individual.
J.T. Yes, I think that is exactly it. I take "our abode" to be the Lord's way of emphasizing what the individual might reckon upon. It is even more than is spoken of in verse 18.
Ques. Is that saying that in coming to the company He stays?
J.T. No; the Lord does not say that They would make Their abode eternally; He simply says that the one who keeps His words would enjoy such a thing as that. The point is that he should enjoy such a thing as the Father and the Son abiding with him. We read elsewhere -- "They abode with him that day". John 1:39.
E.J.McB. It is referred to in verse 25 -- "these things, I have said ... abiding with you"; clearly it did not mean He was going to stay.
J.T. Yes, exactly. I think the point in it is to show that the individual is wonderfully taken care of; his privilege is even greater than in verse 18.
E.J.McB. As things break down on our side, there is an increase on the divine side.
J.T. Yes, and all for the encouragement of the individual. We have little idea of the way the Father and the Son take account of the present circumstances; and the remarkable thing is that they are similar to the circumstances the Lord found Himself in when here.
Ques. Would you confine the thought of the Lord's coming to the Lord's day morning meeting?
J.T. I think we are warranted in connecting the assembly in its proper character with the first day of the week. I believe that is correct, if you examine the allusions to the first day of the week in the Scriptures.
The thought in the assembly is that we should be free. In the prayer meeting you are engaged with what is levitical. In a meeting like this it is more a question of instruction and mutual edification. It would not do if the Lord were present to be speaking to one another as now. He would do everything. If a man of gift were present he would not use it if the Lord were there.
E.J.McB. I think we would all feel if the Lord came into the room now, and there were any questions to ask, we should question Him.
J.T. Yes, now it is the Spirit.
Rem. We really touch the assembly in the Supper.
J.T. Well, that is so little understood, and I am not saying that I am different from others in that, but the assembly in its spiritual character is so little known consciously, that it is little understood.
E.J.McB. I think you will agree with the thought that there is nothing to surpass being where Christ is in supremacy.
J.T. I think the allusions to ecstasy in the Scriptures show that the early christians knew what it was. It was not unknown. The assembly is for Christ and the great thing is to get free; and to be so free that you are for Christ. It is well to recognize that He is for you; but what about His heart? It is not good for a man to be alone, and God's thought was that Christ should have the assembly. Sarah dies, and Rebecca is brought into Sarah's tent, and we are brought now into Israel's place in the sense that we are to be for the comfort of Christ.
J.T. While John 14 shows the Lord's affection and care for His own, chapter 20 is the inauguration of the new order of things; and therefore stands on a much wider platform than chapters 13 and 14. Chapter 20 stands by itself, and what occurs in it being the inauguration of the assembly, is necessarily once for all. There could be no other inauguration.
Ques. Is the new order of things confined to the assembly?
J.T. I think in its highest character it is; but the new order of things, while necessarily including what God will bring in in the future, proceeds from heaven. It is not only what is established in resurrection. The new order of things comes from heaven. So that in principle, in coming into the company here, the Lord came from heaven. I do not say He did so literally, but He came to them following upon His message that He was ascending to the Father.
E.J.McB. That is, it was in the light of His ascension that He came in.
J.T. Yes. The point is as to the moral place which the ascension holds. It is not only here that He is risen, but, "I ascend to my Father and your Father". In chapter 14 He is going to the Father, which is another thought.
J.T. Well, the word "ascend" shows that the Father is in heaven. In going to the Father the Person to whom He was going is more in view, but in chapter 20 the place where the Father is is the prominent thought, and He ascends there; and I think the truth of His own Person is involved in that -- that is, He has title to ascend. In the light of
what He was, He could ascend. He had title to do so.
Rem. In chapter 17 He lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said, "Father, ... glorify thy Son".
J.T. I think that is rather what He is as Man. He had carried out God's will here, so He could say, "I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do". It was due to Him that the Father should glorify Him, and I think His prayer is based upon that. It was a demand for what was morally right. But, then, He is a divine Person, and He has title to ascend in virtue of what He is.
E.J.McB. Yes; the idea in chapter 20 is not that He asked to be taken up, but that He ascends up.
J.T. And He goes up to His Father, and our Father; it is a very precious thought. He says, "I ascend to my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God". It shows what a place the assembly has.
E.J.McB. Is there anything to be learned from what is seen in Mary, prior to this? Would you say it is the "orphan" side of things?
J.T. Quite so. I think Mary represents the affections, the subjective side, in the disciples.
Ques. Then, previous to this, was not resurrection power inherent in Him as a divine Person?
J.T. Yes. John, I think, always presents that side. He shows, for example, in chapter 19, verse 30, that the Lord dismissed His spirit; His death in that way was an act of divine power. Chapters 17 and 18 show that He is in supreme command. In chapter 18 He faces His enemies, and they go backwards and fall to the ground; and He says: "If therefore ye seek me, let these go their way". That is so touching. There was the shepherd's spirit and the shepherd's heart -- He was thinking only of the sheep; and so He delivers Himself up. Then they
put Him on the cross, and He looks after His mother there; and later, He dismisses His spirit. So that all through John's gospel a divine Person is before us.
E.J.McB. "I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again".
J.T. That is how John so helps us. He shows us, in view of the decline and ruin, that we have to do with a divine Person, so that there can be no defeat. I think that is the great value of John's writings. They apply so especially to our own day.
Ques. Is not the resurrection the crowning "sign" that John gives us? He says, "Many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples ... but these are written that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God".
J.T. Yes, it was the greatest visible "sign" as to the greatness of His Person. As a Man the Lord was here in humble guise, and the point in the signs was that the disciples might believe -- that we might really be believers on the Son. There are a great many christians who do not really believe on the Son; and John knew that; and he wrote to establish christians in the truth of the Son. He had, in fact, singled out these special signs that we might believe that Jesus is the Christ, and not only that, but that He is the Son of God.
E.J.McB. If one really believed in the Son nothing in the soul would wane or break down.
J.T. And there is no possibility of defeat. One remarkable thing about John's gospel is that it notes the Lord in isolation; and it also throws a slight on what was official. One of the most striking instances is in chapter 4, where the Lord is seen alone at the well. It is a most touching scene, and in the narrative there is a slight cast on the disciples. Why did they all go away and leave Him there? One would have thought, knowing the Lord, they would have lingered
about with Him. But it says His disciples had gone into the city, and as the narrative proceeds, the woman appears, and she becomes the evangelist; and she had no official place at all. She was really an outcast; she comes into contact with Christ, and He tells her the most wonderful things. She goes back into the city, having left the waterpot, and says, "Come see a man ... is not this the Christ?" In principle she took back living water into Samaria and she bore a testimony. The disciples were looking after the material side -- they went to buy meat. When they came to the Lord they did not know what had transpired; they wondered why He talked with the woman; the disciples did not know the "meat" He had to eat. Now I think that there is a distinct slight cast upon the disciples there. Then you find in chapter 7: 53, they all went to their own homes, but Jesus went to the mount of Olives. Yet with all that there is a link formed between Christ and the remnant, and that link is represented here, I think, in Mary.
E.J.McB. Yes, and He recognizes them as His brethren.
J.T. You feel that He would not recognize any as His "brethren" unless they were morally qualified to be that.
Ques. Is the ascension here intended to indicate the way the affections of the disciples should take?
J.T. Yes, I think so; and also that before you can have public testimony the saints must understand their heavenly position. If you do not take up your heavenly position, the testimony is necessarily reduced. Now, the testimony of the assembly was to take character from the light in which the company is placed here. They are to be sent out into the world as witnesses, but they are sent out in the full light of their heavenly association and position.
Ques. What is the force of the verse in John 6,
where the Lord says, "What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?"
J.T. It shows that He came out of heaven. The point in John 6, is the "bread which cometh down from heaven"; but in chapter 20 we have the Lord going up to heaven, and this involves the "old corn of the land". We need heavenly food to build us up in a heavenly constitution.
Ques. Can the christian have any other?
J.T. Yes, I think so. If you feed on the Psalms only you will not have a heavenly constitution. What are christians generally feeding upon? What people feed upon gives character to their constitution; and if you have not a heavenly constitution, you are not fitted for heaven. Neither are you qualified to render a heavenly testimony here. We not only need the light of our position, but the food that is suitable to it.
Ques. Would you say that sonship is involved in what we have here?
J.T. Yes, the brethren of Christ are also God's sons. The idea of sonship is the order of beings in which God delights; the idea of brethren is mutual affection.
Ques. So that you would say testimony is not simply the message, but the character of those that bring the message.
J.T. I think the vessel was to be suited for the message. The message was to prepare them for the visit, and it gives us the light of our position in relation to Christ, so that we may know how we are suited for such a visit.
Ques. Will you give us help as to the heavenly character of the assembly? Is it viewed in the light of the message -- "I ascend"?
J.T. Yes, that is the ground, and it signifies the attitude which you take up in your soul. Suppose a man is an Englishman; no matter where he is, the ground he takes is that he is an Englishman. Now,
the ground that you take is that you are a heavenly man. You are entitled to take that ground. I think that the idea of "ground" is in that way symbolical. It is simply the attitude of soul you take up, and that gives character to your testimony. If it is a question of adverse power, I take the ground of resurrection; but if it be a question of position, the ground I take is that I am heavenly, and that delivers me from the earth.
E.J.McB. And that, as you were saying, prepares for the visit.
J.T. Yes. The first convening of the assembly, according to this chapter, is in the light of the heavenly position; there can be no question about that. And see what is involved: why it is wonderful that we are accorded such a place as that, and that these poor disciples should have such a marvellous message sent to them. I think it rendered them suited for the visit. It made them great enough for it. It did not as yet characterize them subjectively, but what we get here is the principle of the truth. They are seen together in the light of the message. John records all this here in order to set forth the heavenly position of the assembly -- the inward aspect of it. Acts gives us the outward aspect. Here the Spirit is given inwardly, the Lord breathes into them, whereas in Acts it is what is external -- "it sat upon each of them".
Ques. Would you say that a heavenly testimony comes out from the company, and that in John 20, the whole company is contemplated?
J.T. Yes: and that raises another important distinction to be made. At the outset the company at Jerusalem was formally designated "the assembly", but after the introduction of Paul's ministry, what we find is that the christian economy takes the form of local assemblies. The only mention of a general assembly subsequently is in Acts 15, and that was in the wisdom of God to connect the gentile work with
the Jewish work; but under Paul's ministry the christian economy took the form of local assemblies. Hence all assembly privilege and responsibility from that time is connected with the local company.
Rem. And not with any general assembly at Jerusalem.
J.T. No. So we read -- "the assembly of God which is in Corinth ... with all that in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both theirs and ours". There, I think, you have intimated that the christian economy was to take the form of local assemblies. At the same time catholicity was to be maintained. Hence Paul could say, "If any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God". It was essential that the order of the house should be carried out in each local company. So now it is a question of each local company taking up the privileges that belong to the whole. Corinth is thus spoken of as God's assembly, and God's temple. Now all these thoughts have reference to the assembly as a whole.
Rem. The apostle says, "Thus I ordain in all the assemblies". That would show that the same thing was to prevail everywhere.
Ques. Would you say that in John 20, you get the constitution of the assembly?
J.T. I think we have there the inauguration of the assembly, not in its outward aspect, but in its heavenly relationship, privileges, and position. It is what is inner -- what is altogether spiritual; whereas the epistle to the Corinthians gives us what is outward.
E.J.McB. Is not one great privilege that you see the Lord?
J.T. Yes, I think so; He makes Himself known to the company; but that is spiritual. Do you not think so?
E.J.McB. Yes, entirely -- but it is real.
J.T. We must not think that because a thing is spiritual, it is not real: the most real things are spiritual.
Ques. I would like to ask why it is that the Lord introduces the heavenly character of the assembly here, a difficulty existing in some minds is that the Lord had not yet ascended.
J.T. It is, as has often been said, a question of pattern; to show what the inner privileges of the assembly are; and it is that which qualifies us for the outer. If you only take the side presented in Acts, where we have the historical account of things, you would lose this side.
Ques. Why do you say pattern? Is it because the Lord inaugurated it Himself?
J.T. Yes; it is remarkable that in John's gospel he brings this out. The historical side in the Acts stands related to the official administration of the twelve. The Spirit came to them out of heaven, but it does not involve that they were heavenly. Now, John writes his gospel after all that which is official has given way, and he shows that the Lord inaugurated something quite outside of what is official. So the apostles are not called apostles here, they are simply disciples. Our privileges thus, as christians, are even greater than the gift of an apostle.
Rem. Does not officialism come in where there is a lack of spirituality?
J.T. Well yes, only I think we have to bear in mind that there was what was rightly official. The apostles were given an official place; but the system they inaugurated gave way, and John's testimony came in to meet that; he shows that the Lord set up something outside what was official, something that was wholly spiritual -- and that remains.
E.J.McB. It was really set up before that which was official.
J.T. Yes, and the Lord speaks of the saints here
in the light of their relationship with Him, and then He places responsibility upon them. He says to them, "As my Father hath sent me, even so send I you". As a divine Person He breathes into them. It is not a question here of having received the Spirit from the Father, but He breathes into them Himself. Now Luke, in the Acts, gives you the other side. He shows us that the gift of the Spirit was connected with the promise of the Father; they were to wait for the fulfilment of the promise. Then Peter, standing up, tells them that "having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this which ye behold and hear". And he shows that God had made this same Jesus both Lord and Christ. That is what is official. But here in John it is most intimate and touching. He breathes into them; it is not official.
Rem. That was His own risen life.
J.T. Yes, it was His own life.
Rem. They were to go forth here in His own Spirit.
J.T. Really it was the Spirit of the ascended Man that they had received. It is a wonderful thought.
Ques. How is it that the disciples were found together again without any message, eight days after?
J.T. I think they took cognizance of the precedent established by the Lord; it is as if they appreciated the previous occasion.
Ques. What do you understand by the expression "eight days after"?
J.T. "Eight" signifies a new departure, and is mentioned first in connection with Noah. Seven is the order of God in creation, and eight is a new departure from that. But as in all Scripture, it has no private interpretation, and cannot be limited to any one thought. In this scripture I think you have also intimated that the first day of the week was the assembly day. Hence the same disciples are
alluded to. It says, "eight days after, his disciples were again within".
Rem. Thomas is singled out in the second meeting.
J.T. Yes. He represents, no doubt, the remnant of Israel.
Rem. When it is said that the disciples were together, does it mean all the disciples?
J.T. It would seem so, as if it were said, 'The brethren of Belfast'. I think they were all there. It would appear that Thomas was the only one absent on the first occasion.
Ques. Do you take it to be representative of the whole company?
J.T. Yes, I think so. It says, "And eight days after, his disciples were again within ... Jesus comes, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst". Mr. Darby has pointed out in the Synopsis that the Lord in that way signalized the first day of the week as the day He met with His own down here. It is important to see that christianity is established on precedent rather than on commandment.
Rem. It came in before the Scriptures were written.
J.T. Yes. In the old economy it was a question of law. Moses was not the embodiment of the testimony; he was not the law. He told the people what to do. I think the point in christianity is that it is Christ expressed; the early christians were quick to discern things that the Lord did, and they attached value to them. It came out in a very remarkable way in Paul's ministry, for all that he taught was set forth in himself. He could ask the saints to be followers of him as he followed Christ. This establishes the great difference between the old economy and the new. In christianity you have everything witnessed to practically before it was established as a principle.
Rem. Reverting again to John 20, do you not
think that the Lord would greatly encourage us so that we might come together with expectancy?
J.T. I think our great desire on the first day of the week should be to be free in our affections. That, I feel, is a point of immense importance. There is an opportunity of coming together, and it is not service that we have before us, or any ministry. We have come with the thought of being simply for Christ. It does not say in John that the disciples were together for any special purpose. In the Acts, it does; here it is not mentioned, but undoubtedly they had the Lord before them.
Rem. Of course in one sense we do come together on the Lord's day for a special purpose.
J.T. Yes, but it is only to prepare you for the Lord. You have Christ before you. You are going to be for Christ. In coming together for prayer we have the testimony to engage us. When we are together over the word as now, it is for mutual help. But in assembly it is that we may have Christ before us, and Him only.
Ques. With regard to precedent, can we do things by precedent now?
J.T. We have to go by what the Lord did, and by what the apostles did. I would not take account of any other precedent.
Ques. What do you mean by coming together in assembly?
J.T. I mean when we come together to be for Christ.
Rem. I think what you say expresses it: that we should seek to be free in our affections when we come together.
Ques. Would you say that the Supper is to set us free?
J.T. Yes, it has that effect. The assembly is the spiritual side, whereas the Supper is the external side. It comes under the eyes of men, and is a testimony
The apostle says, "as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come". But the assembly is spiritual, and does not come under the eye of man.
Rem. If you enjoy the presence of the Lord, the world does not see that; it is what is outward they see.
J.T. Hence the order in God's assembly is a matter of great importance, as we see from the epistle to the Corinthians.
Ques. Does "feet washing" come in at the Supper?
J.T. Well, I think it may, in the sense that it relieves your mind and heart of what would hamper your spirit. The Lord would set us free, so that we may have part with Him.
Rem. I suppose in the Supper there is something both for our eyes and for our hearts?
J.T. Yes. In Luke 24 we get "He was made known to them in the breaking of bread". It does not say that it was in the eating; because He did not eat. The breaking is evidently for our hearts, but our eating is the expression of our fellowship; we are committed to His death, and we announce it.
Ques. And would you not say that it was a very fit moment to be looking for Him?
J.T. Well, it is a great thing to get the idea in one's soul that it is when the assembly is free that the Lord comes; then it is for Christ. "It is not good that man should be alone"; that is one thought. Another thought is that having lost Israel, the assembly is for His comfort. If we had been in the place of the disciples we should have understood the Supper. They understood it because they were acquainted with the Lord -- they knew how He did things.
Ques. Would you connect this with what we have in chapter 14?
J.T. In John 14 things are, in a sense, made to depend on the coming of the Spirit. What is more prominent here is the Person of the Lord -- His own personal dignity, and the dignity of the assembly as associated with Him.
Ques. What do you mean by being free?
J.T. I mean to have sufficient spiritual power to lay aside distractions. You do not come to do anything. You come to break bread, but you have no thought before you of taking any part.
Rem. That is very important, because I think people often come with the idea of helping others.
J.T. You have no care before you; the thought is that you are free for Christ.
Rem. If we came in that way, the Lord would not disappoint us.
J.T. No, He would not. I think the highest thought in the assembly is that you are silent. One of the most sorrowful things is that, if there is a pause, some brother thinks he is bound to do something.
Ques. How does the "minister of the sanctuary" come in in connection with this thought?
J.T. The "minister of the sanctuary" applies to the occasion when we are together in assembly, but the epistle to the Hebrews as a whole has a more general bearing and contemplates the whole divine heavenly system. It is not a question there of the assembly convened, though the apostle says, "Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together"; but what he is dealing with is the new system, in contrast to the old, and he shows that the One who now ministers is in heaven.
E.J.McB. And have not the things in the sanctuary more the idea in them of what is official than of affection?
J.T. Yes. Hebrews is official, and is, I think, as I said, to show that the new system is heavenly. Christ does not come out. So it says, "who is set on the
right hand of the throne ... in the heavens; a minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man". It is a priestly thought. It is the kind of minister -- "We have such an high priest ..." You will find in scriptures which are specially intended for Jewish christians that the heavenly side is insisted upon, because they were in danger of being held by the earthly system.
Rem. In Corinthians it is stated that God walks amongst His people and He dwells there. Is that the idea of the sanctuary?
J.T. The thought in the sanctuary is holiness. It is the divine enclosure; but in the epistle to the Hebrews it is the heavenly system, and Christ the minister of it.
E.J.McB. When you come to look into that epistle, is not that thought connected more with God, than with the Father and the family circle?
J.T. Yes, and that it is heavenly. The apostle says, "Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands ... but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us"; and he insists that such a High Priest became us, one who is made higher than the heavens. It shows what a wonderful company it is, that requires "such" a Priest as that. The Lord never ceases to be the heavenly Man.
Rem. And then we read, "such as the heavenly one, such also the heavenly ones".
J.T. I would not allow myself for a moment to take lower ground than that I am heavenly.
Rem. So that the testimony, as taking character from that, is heavenly.
John 10:15, 16; 1 Corinthians 12:12 - 27
J.T. One has in mind to link on the thought of the flock to the thought of the body.
The flock suggests an object of care. The idea of the body is testimony. The setting of the flock, as in John 10, links on with chapter 9, in which the blind man who has had his eyes opened is seen as cast out. It was said of old, "When my father and my mother forsake me, then the Lord will take me up". Psalm 27:10. Chapter 9 shows how a rejected, cast out believer is taken up by the Lord. But in being cast out, he had condemned that out of which he was cast. These are important factors leading up to the truth of the flock and of the body. In taking up our position with Christ, we take it up openly, and as exposing through testimony what we leave. Some of us have been brought up in households which are identified with the testimony, but many of us have come out of human organizations. Some here present may be still in them. The flock is that into which the Lord introduces the outcast. He cares for him in the most affectionate and dignified way, bringing him into that in which the knowledge is the same characteristically as between Himself and His Father.
J.O.S. The Lord's finding of the blind man would be on the line of care, would it not?
J.T. Yes. The Jews cast him out, and it was that fact which made him specially interesting to Christ. The fact that he was cast out proved that he had been faithful, so that now the Lord asks him whether he believes on the Son of God. The man says, "Who is he. Lord, that I might believe on him?" You find throughout that this man is frank in acknowledging his ignorance, which is an important
thing if we are to get the truth. Even when they suggested that the Lord was a sinner he said he did not know. But he was very definite as to what he did know. These are important features.
Ques. What distinction would you make between the testimony rendered by the man, and the testimony in relation to the body?
J.T. The first is individual. It may be rendered anywhere, but it ought to lead to rejection. If, as a Christian, I am in a human organization and I am true in my witness, it will lead to my rejection.
Ques. Would Obadiah, in Ahab's household, illustrate the individual testimony, but lacking that which comes out later in Elijah on mount Carmel?
J.T. He is a good illustration of one who has light, also regard for the people of God, but does not move. There are many like that. Nicodemus witnessed in the council, but they did not cast him out. Obadiah remained in the system of Ahab and Jezebel; he hid the prophets of the Lord, but he was not identified with Elijah. The testimony of such, however, is of some value, as was the testimony of Nicodemus. He says, "Does our law judge a man before it have first heard from himself, and know what he does?" But he did not leave the council, nor did they ask him to leave. It would show that we may say many true things in false positions, and yet in our spirits we are not really judging the falsity of the position.
But they cast this man out. That is where the Lord comes in; He finds him. Many do not get help because they are not cast out, nor do they leave. When the Lord heard he was cast out He found him. He did not take him at once and put him into the fold, but first raised the question of hearing His voice. Moreover, He asks the man as to the Son of God; the Scriptures spoke about the Son of God, and apparently the man was not ignorant
of that fact. He wanted to know, that he might believe.
W.T. Why should the Lord ask that question?
J.T. I think just to bring out this answer. "These are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name", John 20:31. The Lord knew what was in the man's heart; he had faith to believe in the Son of God.
ED.P. Was it a special case, to bring out divine teaching?
J.T. Yes, it is a special case, to bring out the great subject of the flock, and those who form it. The question of the Son of God enters into it. Do we believe on the Son of God? We are very conversant now with the term, but it was not so well known in the days of this man. It had been spoken of in the Old Testament, and no doubt was a part of the teaching in Jerusalem, for Jehovah had said, "Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee". Psalm 2:7. The Lord's question implied that the Son of God was not merely the subject of a prophetic psalm; He was actually on earth. To believe on Him was a test.
R.P. Would you say this is the normal way in which the soul would move in relation to Christ, as finding itself linked up with associations here which are contrary to Him?
J.T. I think so. Having been cast out, what are you going to do? What would become of a man cast out? It was not a time of religious independency like the present time. He was without a country, we may say, or a religion, and his parents had failed to come to his support. The Lord was in that position too. He was an outcast, a reproach in the world. What is going to happen? Well, the Son of God will bring in another world.
Ques. Is that seen in Abiathar -- "With me thou shalt be in safeguard"? (1 Samuel 22:23).
J.T. That illustrates it well. What we see here is the establishment of a new order of things by the Son of God. It takes, first, the form of a shepherd and his sheep, but it leads on to the Son of God as known through the resurrection of the dead, as at Bethany.
Ques. Why do you think Nathanael addresses the Lord as the Son of God?
J.T. He gives the idea of scriptural intelligence, representing the remnant of Israel, "under his fig-tree". This "Israelite indeed" was evidently conversant with Scripture, and in coming to Jesus greets Him: "Thou art the Son of God, thou art the King of Israel". This embodies the testimony of the second psalm. Nathanael represents the Israel of the future.
The blind man is an outcast, and he has condemned what has rejected him. He believes on and worships Jesus as the Son of God. He represents the material for the new order of things. So the Lord proceeds to set up another world, taking up the idea of a shepherd and sheep, as if to stress His gracious care and love for His own as defenceless in this world. He is the Good Shepherd who laid down His life for the sheep. The Lord speaks about other sheep which He had: He had all His sheep in view. There are two words used in the New Testament for "flock", one suggesting a little flock. It is not that in verse 16: what the Lord would lead into is large. He would bring the others also. We have come into something very great, but very precious to Christ.
Ques. The woman in John 4 is concerned about "the Christ".
J.T. That is the Anointed. Here it is a question of believing on the Person. "Who is he", says the man, "that I might believe on him?"
W.T. Was the man fit material to be put into the flock?
J.T. He was. The Lord knows just how far on each one of us is, and so He challenges us as to what we believe. It is a question of faith -- the basis for the building up of a new system.
L.D.M. Have we not all to arrive at this point, whether we have left a system or whether we have been brought up amongst the saints?
J.T. This section of Scripture indicates what we are brought into either as cast out or as coming out.
Ques. Would the Lord's dealing with Saul of Tarsus come in on the same line?
J.T. Just so. God had revealed His Son in him, evidently before he preached Him. The point here is that you believe on Him. The man said definitely what he knew. First he says, "I received sight"; then, to the Pharisees, "I see". Then he goes further, and exposes them: the Lord had opened his eyes, and they were saying He was sinful. He says, "Since the world began was it not heard that any man opened the eyes of one that was born blind", verse 32. He is true to what he knows, and makes the most of it. This is how testimony is rendered, because it is what one knows best, that tells.
As he spoke to them, light was coming into his soul. You cannot define it, but there it is. The Lord knew that, so He asks whether he can go further than anything he has yet said. The Lord watches you bearing faithful testimony, wherever you may be; He watches till you are ready for something further.
S.V. Does the Lord need such material with which to form the flock?
J.T. That is it. The Son of God gives us to understand who He is and how He cares for us. How tender He is! He impresses us with His love, as needing it. But then He goes on to the thought of
other sheep and one flock. It runs with the idea of the whole assembly. In Luke 12:32. Acts 20:28, 29 and 1 Peter 5:2, 3 -- "the flock" is the diminutive thought.
J.T. Yes. It is very precious to have part in this flock, for it is the object of the Lord's tenderest care. He is everything to the sheep, and they are everything to Him. He gives them eternal life, and they will never perish. It is all from the side of the care of His love.
But then we find that those forming the flock are to be anointed -- and that is how the idea of the flock links on with that of the body.
L.D.M. This flock would be too big for Judaism -- the fold.
J.T. Quite so. A fold is not movable: the flock is. The assembly has no fixity here at all, but bears the character of the tabernacle in the wilderness. Fixity for us, is in heaven. You do not build a cathedral, for it would give fixity. And we do not attach any importance to our meeting places. They are not sanctified. They may be vacated at any moment.
S.V. So a meeting room is not an essential?
J.T. It is just a convenience by the way. Our position is a provisional one as in the wilderness. For a fixed state of things you must go to the temple as built by Solomon.
L.D.M. It says, "Shall go in and out, and find pasture".
J.T. That is the thought. There is liberty today; no one forbids us. But going in and out is more a spiritual idea. Every believer has liberty to go in and out, and find pasture. Every member of the flock can go in to God, and can be trusted to go out. One is saved as coming in by the door, which is Christ.
Ques. Would the understanding of the truth of
the flock save us from clericalism? Would not the latter be the opposite of "going in and out"?
J.T. That is what I was thinking. Clericalism revives the limitations of Judaism. The Lord Himself, even, could not go beyond the court of the temple at Jerusalem! The whole of this passage relates to the care of the shepherd, His love and what it does for us. Every one of us, even Paul and Peter, come in here. The most distinguished servant is in the flock.
But when you come to the body (1 Corinthians 12:12), it is called "the Christ". It means that we are anointed, and that we are here for testimony. It is the strongest figure of our oneness you can get. It is an organism. We are bound together thus with a view, to bearing testimony.
A.E.C. Does the blind man give the idea of transference from a dead system to a living organism?
J.T. Yes. The flock is not an organism, but it leads to it. The organism is in the Lord's mind, and the position of sheep is in view of it. We learn the Lord's care, and we learn to love one another as under it in the flock. That is what qualifies us to be anointed -- "the Christ". The man who had his eyes opened is a model sheep. It is very precious to think, that as witnessing for Christ and being cast out, you come under all this care -- the sacrifice and care of His love.
W.T. How do you understand the putting forth of His sheep and going before them?
J.T. It brings out the greatness of the shepherd. Putting forth involves control, using it to take His own out of a position God has judged; then He goes before them and they follow knowing His voice. Much outward detail attaches to all this, so that the sheep are outside, but the influence and leadership of the Shepherd enter throughout into their deliverance.
From the flock we merge into the body. The Holy Spirit gives us to understand this: the latter is Paul's side. This passage shows how John supports Paul's ministry, as has been pointed out.
G.E. Would this be illustrated in Paul's introduction to the assembly? (Acts 9).
J.T. That corresponds with this chapter. From that point onwards, you get the preaching of the Son of God. The body is for a representation of Christ here.
Ques. Does John 17 give us the full light of that?
J.T. It is parallel. The thought of unity is one of the great features of the Lord's prayer there. But in John 10 it is, "there shall be one flock, one shepherd": all the sheep are included, and they are all the subjects of His affections and His care.
Ques. We are not prepared for the body unless we love one another?
J.T. Certainly we are not. The body is an organism, growing out of the unity of affection.
Rem. It is an important feature that the sheep should hear the shepherd's voice.
J.T. Yes, it says they know it. The idea in sheep as seen here is that they are the subjects of the love and care of the Shepherd, not that of responsibility. In the body you have the idea of obligation -- we are anointed in view of testimony: "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit", 1 Corinthians 12:13.
There are two ideas here. The first concerns something done to me -- I am baptized in the power of the one Spirit. Then I am made to do something -- to drink into one Spirit, which implies satisfaction. That is to say, the position is not irksome to me; I find satisfaction in it. That is what gives permanency in testimony. No one who has been "made to drink
into one Spirit" would be dissatisfied or quarrelsome. God has committed Himself to us in the anointing, and it is of all moment that we should be united in heart, drinking into the same Spirit, and finding it is worth our while: it is satisfying.
J.O.S. Does the anointing mean that the saints are made capable of representing Christ?
J.T. Yes. The anointing is divine committal and power of service.
Ques. As coming under the anointing, would there not be the recognition of Christ as Head?
J.T. You must go to Colossians properly for headship. The instruction here is to set us in relation to one another and maintain us thus. "So also is the Christ" does not mean that that characterized the Corinthians. It did not. Paul is bringing in what is normally characteristic of the saints, so as to promote this at Corinth.
J.O.S. Does not the Spirit in this chapter act of Himself?
J.T. That is the point of view. The chapter generally deals with the action of the Spirit. He baptizes us into one body. By the Spirit one merges with the other brethren in a locality and generally; and so drinks into the Spirit that is among them. Thus he does not complain about the position at all. He is in an organism, and has to perform his function there.
L.D.M. We cannot get away from that, can we?
J.T. No; the thing in view here is that we should not. If the foot say, "Because I am not a hand I am not of the body, is it on account of this not indeed of the body?"
L.D.M. It would save us from being "freelances", would it not?
J.T. Yes. In verse 21 it says, "The eye cannot say to the hand, I have not need of thee; or again, the head to the feet, I have not need of you": that is to
say, the governing principle forbids it. You cannot say that you have no need of another.
Ques. Would the Spirit help us to find our distinctive place in the body?
J.T. Yes; we are set in the body as it has pleased God, verse 18. The pleasure of God is a very precious thing to realize.
L.D.M. Would it underlie our practical testimony?
J.O.S. Is that testimony rendered effective by the body?
J.T. The body is for the diffusion of the light. The temple has the light, but the body diffuses it. So that a very heavy responsibility rests on us as anointed. As acting together, it works out practically at the Lord's supper. In chapter 11 you have the bread and the cup. It takes some time for these to go round, varying with the size of the meeting; but the silence does not simply mean that I sit through the time. That is not the idea of the body. The thing is to learn how to sit unitedly, silently, in the power of the Spirit. The time will pass very quickly then. It often takes more spiritual power to sit silent than it does to take audible part. There was not a single word spoken at the supper table at Bethany, so far as Scripture says, until the silence was broken by Judas. And then the Lord spoke to defend Mary; John 12.
F.W. Would you say more as to our being together body-wise.
J.T. It is the communion of the body of Christ. The word communion means fellowship, or our public relations one with another. It is the bread which we break; the fellowship implies that we are committed to one another, for the passage goes on to say, "Because we, being many, are one loaf, one body; for we all partake of that one loaf". This passage in 1 Corinthians 10 is based on what is done as
the Lord's supper is partaken of according to chapter 11. The unity of intelligent affection is seen there.
ED.P. Why does it say "Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace"? (Ephesians 4:3). Would the keeping of it be tantamount to keeping the unity of the body?
J.T. It would work out that way. In keeping the unity of the spirit I am thinking of all my brethren, and keeping in mind that the whole assembly is governed by the same truths, principles, feelings, and motives. Abstractly this unity exists, and we endeavour to keep it.
J.O.S. Does the drinking into the one Spirit contribute to that unity?
J.T. Yes. We are held together in spiritual affections.
Ques. It does not necessarily involve being together in one place, does it?
J.T. No. Ephesians does not contemplate that. It sets out the general position. Of course the local assembly is recognized -- "the saints which are at Ephesus".
Ques. Could it be worked out locally?
J.T. Surely. The unity of the Spirit involves the mystery -- that we know how to keep secrets.
Ques. Does 1 Corinthians 12 involve normal christianity?
J.T. Yes: the apostle says "we", instead of "ye", as in chapter 10. "We" implies the saints as a whole, not only those local to Corinth. It is the abstract thought of the assembly. He comes down to the practical working of it in verse 27 -- "Now ye are Christ's body, and members in particular". That would show how it can be worked out locally.
ED.P. Would verse 27 apply in the abstract only, or in the concrete also?
J.T. The abstract, in this sense, has no value unless there is some concrete expression of it. "Ye are
Christ's body, and members in particular". It shows the burden that rests upon us. Christ is, though hidden from the eyes of men, expressed here in this mysterious way.
L.D.M. Does the loaf give the local idea of the body?
J.T. Yes. The fellowship is only one, but it has a general character and a local character. That saves us from being congregational churches, acting as if self-contained. The general fellowship works out locally, and the local fellowship works out generally -- "so ordain I in all churches", 1 Corinthians 7:17. The apprehension of the assembly and the practical working of it is the most important thing for the moment, following upon the truth of the Lord's Person. If He acquires a place in our hearts as to who He is, the next great thing is the assembly, and how to be "together in assembly". It is made very practical, in that we are enabled to sit together, not as so many units, but as one, with genuine feelings and affections for one another; with one thought before us. Thus the assembly appears under the Lord's eye, and He delights in it. As together in assembly we are to be "to another, even to him who is raised from the dead". Romans 7:4.
2 Timothy 2:19; Revelation 3:20; Acts 9:11: Genesis 18:19: Exodus 4:14
I have before me to speak about the Lord's knowledge of His people. The apostle in 2 Timothy 2:19 brings the subject, in a general way, before us: "The Lord knoweth them that are his". This is indeed one side of the seal, and the other side is, "Let everyone that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity", for the foundation of God stands. This is a very important fact for us as we think of our brethren who are not available to us, and as seeking to maintain the fellowship of God's Son to which we have been called. Whilst there is the precious word that blessing attaches to all Israel that are present at any time when the saints come together in assembly, yet we cannot but recognize that only a few are present; there are many others, and if we are near the Lord, we miss them. They are our relatives, spiritually, and have a place on the shoulder-pieces of the High Priest, and on the breastplate, a place in the divine counsels. So we miss them, and this should not be a mere theoretical thing but something felt, that there are many who are not available.
This two-sided seal that I have spoken of is a sort of mandate that the Lord has given to His people in our time, so that our position is not one devised by ourselves. It has authority in it; in a sense, it has as much authority as existed on the day of Pentecost. On the day of Pentecost, as a great many were converted and added, it is said of them, that they continued "in the teaching and fellowship of the apostles". That means that they recognized the authority; it was not simply a teaching that they had acquired themselves, it was the apostles' teaching which they persisted
in, and the apostles' fellowship. The teaching and fellowship had authority behind them, so that they were not merely a sect with their own peculiar thoughts.
Now our position today is equal to theirs in principle and detail as having this mandate behind it, and that involves the whole teaching of the apostles. That mandate applies to the present time as having recognized the confusion in the profession around us. There was no need of it at the outset, but it is needed now, because the position is questioned. Hence the mandate becomes of exceeding importance -- "the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, the Lord knows those that are his; and, Let every one who names the name of the Lord withdraw from iniquity". We can stand in the presence of all our brethren -- if we can only get them to listen to us -- and tell them it is here we stand, we cannot do otherwise, the matter is imperative. If some do not listen, thank God for those who do! But as the prophetic word says, "Yet will I gather others to him, with those ... that are gathered", but it will be a small percentage, a minority, and the feeling of sorrow must continue, if we are with God, as to their delinquency in obeying the mandate. Nevertheless the feeling of sorrow is allayed by the thought that "The Lord knoweth them that are his". They may not be aware of it, but we are; it is that which we have in the seal.
I want to touch on the letters to the seven assemblies in that relation, for they synchronize with 2 Timothy. The addresses to the assemblies show that the Lord not only knows them that are His, but He knows where they are. He knows all about them; He is conversant with all the circumstances attaching to them, whether viewed ecclesiastically or otherwise; hence in the passage I have read. He says, "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock". The Lord is not content with simply knowing them that are His, but He is seeking them out, not silently, but
loudly, as persistently "knocking". It is a continuous thing, "Behold, I stand at the door and am knocking".
It is a comfort to those who know Him, and are sympathetic with Him, but it is also a challenge as to whether we have part in the knocking. Though the Lord Jesus speaks to the assemblies in this symbolical way, as walking in the midst of them, He is not corporeally there, He is in heaven, but He serves them mediately through others. As walking in the midst of the assemblies in a spiritual sense, it is through others that He is exercising this service. That brings exercise as to whether we are in His hands as regards this knocking.
The Lord says in chapters 2 and 3, "I know". It comes like balm to one's soul. Others do not know what our circumstances may be, and thus we are deprived of their sympathy. It may be soul trouble, or business trouble, or family sorrow, but the word, "I know" from the Lord is like heavenly balm. Seven times over it occurs in these chapters, covering all the saints from that time until the rapture. The first things He speaks of as knowing are commendable things, and this would encourage us, for, whatever trouble souls are in, the Lord says, "I know", and He commends us in things which, perhaps, we may have forgotten. But then His faithfulness requires that He should call attention to other things; it may be the things that have brought on the sorrow. We should know what has brought on the sorrow, but He does not fail to tell us what has brought it on. Others may conjecture the cause, but it is often hidden and known only to God.
In Job's case, the real cause of his sorrow, as calamity came upon him, was not known to Job himself at first, though he held fast his integrity. It was a long process of the chiding of his friends, and the faithful presentation of the truth through Elihu, until finally, the Lord Himself, in unfailing faithfulness,
brought home to him what the real root was, so that he said, "now mine eye seeth thee". What a wonderful experience to be brought, through discipline, face to face with God, so as to say, "now mine eye seeth thee"!
What I particularly had in mind in regard to this knocking on the part of the Lord, is His unfailing faithfulness in the present moment. Whoever they may be, or wherever the Lord's people are, He knows them, and He knows their circumstances, and He continues knocking. The knocking requires that He knows the towns and the villages and streets and the numbers on the doors of the saints; and the object is, "if any one hear my voice and open the door" -- think of the Lord of glory, the Upholder of all things, the Creator, knocking at the door! It is most touching, and it ought to challenge us, as to whether we have part in this service. If any man open unto me, "I will come in unto him and sup with him, and he with me".
In the gospels we see how He goes after the sheep; the Shepherd will go to any length after the sheep. You will remember the journey to Emmaus -- it was a distance of sixty furlongs, and He would have gone further for He will go to any length in order to secure the return of a wanderer. "He made as though he would go farther", it is to remind us of His patience in following up those who have wandered from Him. With the Lord Jesus this kind of service will go on, and the present time calls particularly for this service of knocking, knocking at the doors of His people; and then there is the offer to the one who hears His voice, "I will come in unto him and sup with him". He has His own way of knocking. It is not a corporeal action but a spiritual movement which would convey to that one that He has a place to which He would invite him. He would say as it were, I will come in to you, and sup with
you, but I have a better place in which you may sup with Me. Think of supping with Him in His place! He would invite you to it as He did the disciples who left John the Baptist in John 1. When they asked, "Where abidest thou?" He said to them, "Come and see". We may be assured they were pleased to stay there, it was not irksome. The Spirit of God tells us, "They abode with him that day".
From Acts 9 I want to show how the Lord acts in detail: Saul representing one whom the Lord would serve, but through another. We are shown the way of His doing it now. Saul has to come to it, that he is to learn from other believers, and we also have to learn that way. There are those who assume that it is not necessary; but let it be understood by everyone here, that you have to learn from other believers. The Lord will not allow anyone to pass by His people, those who love Him; for in principle, they are the assembly. Everyone who, like Saul, has come under the direct ministry of the Lord, will be sent by Him into the city, and there it will be told him what he is to do. This is a very important point to any one who seeks to learn. There is the teaching, but there must also be the learning, and I must understand through whom the teaching is to come. It may be humbling to find that I have to learn from persons I regard less than myself. Thus Jesus tells Saul that he should go into the city to be told what to do, involving that he must learn from persons who were of much less account in this world than he. It is a salutary lesson. Saul said, "What shall I do?" which was right, and the Lord could have Himself told Saul what to do, but He said, "Go into the city, and it shall be told thee". One would say to anyone in christendom that he has to learn, not from the hierarchy, but from persons of no religious reputation in this world.
The Lord not only knew the city but the name of
the street, and the house in which he was. The Lord had His eye on that man, and He has His eye on every one of His own, but especially on one who like Saul is in the throes of concern about his soul. He said to Ananias, "Behold he prayeth". The Lord knows anyone who is praying genuinely, and will not fail to help him; it may be by sending someone to him. We are very slow to move at His bidding; but if there is one praying, the Lord has someone whom He can send to him. So the Lord sees to it that Ananias goes, for chapter 9 stresses the idea of His authority. It is very comforting that the Lord not only knows them that are His, but He has authority to obtain service from them. So Ananias goes and lays his hand on the praying man and says to him, "Saul, brother". He serves in the spirit that he has gathered up in the presence of the Lord. The Lord knew what was going on in Saul's soul, and that he was praying, and so He sends His servant, having fitted him for a service to be rendered. It does not appear that Ananias was a distinguished servant of the Lord, for he is never spoken of afterwards except by Paul, and then it is in relation to this incident. So the apostle has to begin to learn from one who is of much less account than himself, from one that he would despise naturally perhaps.
The history of Abraham in the Old Testament amplifies this. He is properly Abraham, the believer. He stands out as the father of all believers; but what is said by Jehovah in Genesis 18:19 is, "I know him". Not only in the sense of Timothy, as merely one of the elect, but He knows him as one who will command his house after him, to "keep the way of Jehovah, to do righteousness and justice".
It is a very important matter as to how the Lord knows us; in relation to our houses, is the point here. He visited Abram according to chapter 17, and had
carried on a holy conversation with him, telling him that He was the Almighty God, and showing His power. Then, having changed his name to Abraham, He gives him the covenant of circumcision, and we are told "God went up from Abraham". This is most interesting, Jehovah having to do with a man who has a house, giving him the covenant of circumcision and then leaving off talking with him. What will Abraham do as left alone? You remember in the gospels how it is said the Lord laid His hands on the children and departed. What happened afterwards? The children were left with those responsible for them.
So here He went up from Abraham, and Abraham, we are told, circumcised "all the men of his house" that selfsame day: that is to say, he is proved to be the keeper of God's commandments. Presently, Jehovah comes back with two others. How great a favour! It is a household matter. One of the most humbling things is to see believers seeking to go on with the Lord's people, while the children are allowed to go on in the world. Not so with Abraham. Jehovah says, "I know him that he will command his children and his household after him". He came back to Abraham, and came back in company, and moves on; "and Abraham stood yet before the Lord". Abraham is not one who wishes the meeting to be shortened. Think of the grace shown in this second visitation -- the honour that Jehovah should wait with the other two until Abraham brought the refreshment! God dignifies a man's household on the basis of faithfulness -- and then He tarries with the patriarch as he intercedes for Sodom. Jehovah had said, "Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do? ... for I know him"; He knew him as a father, as a husband, and that he would command his children, and his household after him. Thus he is the friend of God. In this
chapter we learn that God conveys to us what He is about to do, because of faithfulness in our houses.
I pass on to Exodus 4 in speaking of how the Lord knows us. Moses was complaining that he was not ready for his mission, for the great honour of being sent to Israel. He said, "I am not eloquent ... but I am slow of speech". It may be that there are those whom the Lord would call into His service, and who are slow to move -- but the need is great. One has often gone over the incident of the loosing of the colt in the gospels. Matthew tells us that the Lord had need of them; that is He needed the ass and the colt, which would be an allusion to the formation of a meeting. The Lord has great need of new material, but such material as Matthew suggests -- "two of you" (two of the assembly). Mark says, "the Lord hath need of him". He needs a servant. The need is great. Some of us who move about in service know how great it is. The Lord has need of those who can serve His people, but He never sends us at our own expense. He will furnish us with all that we need. He is not an austere Master.
Luke says the same: "The Lord hath need of him". In John, He does not send the message at all. He finds a colt Himself and sat on it. What does He do? I would say to young brothers, be sure you are found. He is finding those who are spiritually available and He will continue to find such. How great an honour to that colt, that he should carry the KING into the royal city! Thus the Lord is seeking those available in view of the continuance of the service, that is what is going on now. It is a question as to whether the Lord knows any of us to be as He requires.
He has appointed Moses to His service, but Moses said, I cannot speak. Then Jehovah says, "Is not Aaron the Levite thy brother? I know that he can
speak well". One prays continually for such an one as this, Aaron, the Levite, thy brother; one not hitherto mentioned, though he is now eighty-two years of age. We may be assured there are many such, and the Lord gives us to understand that He knows just what we are capable of. The first thing is that Aaron is a Levite. We have never heard his name before but he was there, and the Lord knew what was in his heart. He is a Levite, and we shall understand what that means if we read Exodus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua and Chronicles. It is a question of what Jehovah knew was in that man.
How blessed the thought for anyone desiring to serve the Lord, though he may be hidden away, his name not known amongst us, yet the Lord knows. He says of Aaron, "I know that he can speak well". How He watches over us in secret! He knows the Gideons, the Aarons, the Davids -- He knows they are suitable for an emergency. It is very beautiful in Aaron's case, because he was ready: the Lord says, "Behold, he goeth out to meet thee; and when he seeth thee he will be glad in his heart". I think that is what should be before us. If we are before the Lord in secret in regard to His service, He will bring out His Aarons, His Levites -- and they will become polished shafts for His service. Let us not appoint them, for the Lord says, "I know". The Lord has to do that Himself. He moves before us in the appointing of His servants. It is a matter of secret history. We know one another very little, but the Lord knows us from the outset. He says, "I know that he can speak well. And also behold, he goeth out to meet thee". Moses had the light direct from God. Aaron could never have Moses' place, but he was to be his spokesman. Alas, he envied Moses later, but he did not at first.
In closing I want to point out how a man like Moses, himself one of the most distinguished of
speakers, can appeal for confirmation to Jehovah on the ground that He had said, "I know thee by name". How he valued the fact of Jehovah's knowledge of him, not as in the sense of 2 Timothy, but according to his faithfulness. How God honours a man like that! He said of him, "he is faithful in all my house. Mouth to mouth do I speak to him openly". He spoke to Moses face to face as a man speaks with a friend. Think of Jehovah coming down to the door of the tent, and speaking with him as a man speaks with his friend! How wonderful to be known thus! I link it with the word in 1 Corinthians 8:3 -- "If any man love God, the same is known of him". God honours those who love Him. How great the inducement to be a lover of God! Like Moses and many other devoted servants, so the lover of God today is "known of him".
2 Peter 1:16 - 18; Exodus 24:9 - 18
J.T. Mountains have a very important place in Scripture, particularly in Matthew and Exodus; and Peter's allusion, as from one who was in the full appreciation of what had been presented on one, serves to bring out the importance of mountains. Having had many years to think over what had been presented on the mount, it seemed to increase in value in his eyes and thoughts, reminding us that as we advance, what we learn in early years increases in value in our estimation. The gospel as rightly presented should convey the suggestion of the assembly, and normally we increase in our appreciation of it, so that instead of being theoretic in our references, we are "full of sap", and fresh in our service.
A.E.L. Do you mean that in preaching the gospel, the assembly is before one? In what character particularly would that be?
J.T. Well, it is brought in at the end of Romans as the mystery. Something is mentioned, as of great importance, that is not unfolded at the moment: it is obvious that normally we would begin to enquire, and the enquirers get the light and instruction. It was presented by the Lord at once in the case of Saul of Tarsus -- "Why persecutest thou me?" and it evidently never lost its power in his soul, but rather increased. Ephesians brings it in in its fulness.
A comparison of Peter's comments as to the holy mount, with the mountain in Exodus, would help us as to the assembly. It involves moral elevation in Matthew 17. As the truth of the assembly is announced, chapter 16, we have a selection of persons to go up. Matthew only of the evangelists formally mentions the assembly. Three disciples are selected
out of many, and although they but little appreciated what was there then. Peter shows that he did appreciate it afterwards. As we grow older, we increase in our appreciation of testimony presented to us.
A.E.L. I should like to follow how you bring the assembly in in that connection, for there are only three persons selected.
J.T. It is to bring out the personnel of the assembly, what is suitable in the way of personal dignity. They saw great things up there, and later understood the bearing of them. What they saw on the mount had reference to the assembly. It was to make them great inwardly, that they were taken up. Peter's letter shows how he had come to value it; he was now consciously equal to it -- "When we were with him", he says, not 'when Moses or Elijah were with him', but "when we were with him". Starting with that, we might get a little clue as to the assembly in its greatness. The persons who form it are necessarily great. Moses and Elijah were brought in there by an extraordinary act of God, but they are not the material for the assembly, they represent heavenly personages equal to speaking with the Lord Jesus in the very height of the glory. They were speaking with Him, showing how great they were; the idea being that we can speak to the Lord as in the midst of the greatest glory, it is not too great for us. Luke refers to Moses and Elias as two men.
W.H. In Matthew's gospel it does not say of Peter, "not knowing what he said". As Matthew treats of the assembly, this may suggest intelligence in him.
J.T. It tends to minimize his ignorance at any rate. "Moses and Elias appeared to them talking with him". Matthew 17:3. Then it says, as regard the others, "the disciples hearing it fell upon their
faces, and were greatly terrified", showing that they were not equal to the scene, but they received impressions. We get impressions early, and although we may not at the time be equal to what they convey, God brings us to it. The point is, God brings us to the result; these two personages appeared to them in glory talking with Him, and they were equal to it; as if God would convey that His thought is to make us all equal to the glory. Peter does not allude to Moses and Elias, but to himself. John and James -- "when we were with him in the holy mount". As the scene is over, "lifting up their eyes, they saw no one but Jesus alone", and Mark adds, "with themselves". They are to be brought to this great scene in their souls, so that they are equal to the glory. We often lack "wings" in our assembly meetings -- "They shall mount up with wings as eagles", Isaiah 40:31. We stay about too much at the bottom of the mountain, whereas the glory is on the top. We get in Exodus, "The glory of Jehovah abode on mount Sinai, and the cloud covered it six days; and on the seventh day he called to Moses out of the midst of the cloud. And the appearance of the glory of Jehovah was like a consuming fire on the top of the mountain". In Moses there is one equal to it.
A.E.L. It was a bright cloud in Matthew.
J.T. Yes, showing the advance from the wilderness. If we understood the kind of persons that are seen there, we should have it before us that the divine thought is that we should be brought to that. If we see the thought of God for us and seek it, we are brought to it. God could have brought this glorious scene down, and the Lord could have been transfigured at the bottom of the mountain, if it were merely a question of what God could do; but Exodus 24 shows that the divine thought was that they should go up; the chapter begins with that, the
covenant is introduced afterwards and then they go up, verse 9. Then we get the fulness of glory, a man entering into it. He is seen before he enters in, and then he enters in. There is the glory that we behold, and the glory that we share; we want to understand now how we are to share things with Christ, and then how we are to behold the glory that is peculiar to Himself.
Ques. Do you suggest that we may even be occupied with the Lord as in resurrection without seeing Him go up?
J.T. Yes, we must see Him go up to get the full divine thought; the assembly belongs to heaven.
Ques. At the end of Matthew the Lord said that they should go into Galilee and there they should see Him, but it says of the disciples, they "went into Galilee to the mountain which Jesus had appointed them" -- do you think they were equal to His thought there?
J.T. That is exactly the point. We go up to Him in chapter 5 and hear His teaching. Several mountains intervene, and the one you allude to is the last; in Matthew it is the place of a divinely appointed meeting. They had already learned to go up with Him, but now they go up by themselves, and He comes and meets them there.
A.E.L. Have you any thought as to why it is only three disciples on the mount of transfiguration? for in the last instance it is all of them.
J.T. It is, I think, to bring out the principle of selection that runs right through Scripture.
A.E.L. Would it be for testimony?
J.T. It would be competency for full testimony. As I was remarking, we remain too much at the bottom of the mountain, but we thus miss the glory.
for God does not come down with it. The Lord took them up to the mountain and the glory came there; so here. Exodus 24, the idea is of the ascent first on the part of the people, then the glory. In chapter 34, after the breakdown, Moses ascended alone -- there is no one at all to go but himself. Here the others go part of the way with him -- that is our privilege. The Lord goes beyond anything we can ever compass, but still we go up. The setting of the truth is that at the beginning of the chapter there is the suggestion of ascending as the predominating idea: "Go up to Jehovah, thou and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel; and worship afar off. And let Moses alone come near Jehovah". That is the position; and the next thing is, how are they to go up? Are we to go up in slavish fear? or are we to go up in the liberty the love of God affords? This is what the type means. The God to whom we ascend, is the God who loves us. If we know His love we shall not have any fear in our hearts in going up.
Then the chapter says, "Moses came and told the people all the words of Jehovah, and all the judgments; and all the people answered with one voice, and said. All the words that Jehovah has said will we do! And Moses wrote all the words of Jehovah, and rose up early in the morning, and built an altar under the mountain, and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel". It is as if Moses had said, 'I am not going to write until you commit yourselves'; the covenant is to be written, for it is to stand. But how is it to stand? Only on the principle of sacrifice; and moreover, it stands in relation to all. The twelve pillars mean all the saints, they convey the great general thought. Then the officers are not to be mere officials, going through the service as a routine; they are to be in youthful freshness. That is the next thing: he sends youths,
and "they offered up burnt-offerings, and sacrificed sacrifices of peace-offering of bullocks to Jehovah". They would do it in a fresh, energetic way, there would be nothing stale about them. That is the feature that God indicates here. Then after that the blood is put in the basons, meaning that it is there in volume, which has its own voice, and "Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel went up", verse 9. Verses 1 and 2 give the divine direction, and verse 9 is the answer to it.
Rem. If we understood what is there we should go up.
J.T. Exactly. But God is seeking company up above. He is ready to come down to walk with them, as He did for hundreds of years; 1 Chronicles 17:5, but now they are to gratify His heart by going up to His own sphere.
Ques. Do we get His own sphere suggested in the excellent glory referred to in the passage read in 2 Peter?
J.T. Yes, the word "excellent" points to it. Peter has a great vocabulary of superlatives of which we ought to learn the meaning.
C.T.L. Does the presentation of the love in the Lord's supper help us in going up?
J.T. That is what is in view in the type in the blood of the covenant; the words are almost those the Lord uses as to the supper, only that we have the new covenant; this is a type of the new.
W.H. Do you think we ought always to go up after the supper?
J.T. Yes, I think that is what God is looking for. We begin at the bottom where our responsibility was, and is; the Lord's supper refers to that, it is here: there is what is here, and what is there.
C.T.L. Why do you think it is we are so reluctant to go up?
J.T. I think there is a good deal of teaching
needed, to get our minds running in right channels; and then, if we are honest, as we take on the teaching, we want to be in keeping with it; and God has given us the power in the Spirit to be in keeping with it. In the second prayer of the apostle in Ephesians he bows his knees, as if to suggest that the thing in view is great, but not much realized. He bowed his "knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, of whom every family in the heavens and on earth is named, in order that he may give you according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with power by his Spirit in the inner man". Ephesians 3:14 - 16. That is what is needed.
Ques. Is the blood presented here as the death of Christ on the love side?
J.T. I think so, there is no sin offering.
Ques. Would you say the Lord led the woman of Sychar to the true mountain? She could say, "Our fathers worshipped in this mountain".
J.T. Just so. I believe an examination of mountains, especially in Exodus and Matthew, would help greatly as to worship.
Ques. Do you think the seventy represent those in whom the teaching of the Lord has become effective? I was thinking of the scripture, "Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty", 2 Corinthians 3:17 -- liberty to go up.
J.T. I think so. The proposal in the beginning of the chapter is God's. The next thing is, Is there anyone with heart enough to take it on? The Lord said, "There are some of those standing here that shall not taste of death at all until they shall have seen the Son of man coming in his kingdom". Well, am I to be amongst those? Have I heart enough for that? Someone is going to be there: it is on the principle of selection. Therefore there is a challenge. It is a great thing to go up there and to see -- whether it be the kingdom of God come in power,
or the Son of man coming in His kingdom, or the kingdom of God, according to the way the different evangelists present it. It was a wonderful scene! Peter uses beautiful superlatives to convey to us his thoughts as to it. Peter was in the assembly in the power of it, I am sure. So we see the dignity of the persons who form the assembly, and the question is. Have we heart enough for it? In Exodus 24:3, we read, "Moses came and told the people all the words of Jehovah", and they committed themselves, saying, "All the words that Jehovah has said will we do! And Moses wrote all the words of Jehovah, and rose up early in the morning, and built an altar under the mountain, and twelve pillars ..." See how energetic he was! But then he would take them the whole way, so that verse 9 goes back to verses 1 and 2 -- the covenant intervening. Now we are great enough for it, we value it. They go up, and "they saw the God of Israel". Why could they not see Him below? We must learn that we have to move upwards. God comes down and we have to go up. He selects His own domain in which to display Himself, and why not gratify Him by going up?
Rem. If the principle of selection is there on the one hand, there is the principle of committal on the other.
J.T. Exactly, you have heart enough for it as you commit yourself.
O.G. Where do you think the Lord's leading comes in on distinctive occasions? What you are saying applies generally. Is Moses the leader in taking them up?
J.T. Yes, he is a type of Christ here in this respect. See what alacrity he evinces! He rose up early in the morning, and built an altar under the mountain, and twelve pillars according to the twelve tribes of Israel.
In chapter 34 nobody goes with Moses, and he carries up the tables, having hewed them himself. He goes up and Jehovah comes down and causes His glory to pass before Him; and there the covenant is to be "after the tenor of these words"; it is more the spirit of the covenant. But here in chapter 24 we have the blood of the covenant, and the great general thought of elevation; that God would have His people to go up.
Ques. Does the Lord's service as minister of the sanctuary come in?
J.T. Yes, it fits in here. We are said in Hebrews to be "holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling". Hebrews 3:1: then it says, "Such a high priest became us" -- so great are the heavenly people that they need this priest. Then in chapter 8 the apostle summarises to call attention to the greatness of this Priest. Then he proceeds to speak of the covenant: chapters 8 and 9 and a good part of chapter 10 refer to the covenant, with the same end in view -- that we might draw near.
Ques. What does the coupling of Joshua here with Moses suggest?
J.T. Well, we get the word "attendant" you will notice as to Joshua; this indicates what he represents.
F.I. The three disciples were attendant on the Lord as He went up the mount of transfiguration.
J.T. They were "eye-witnesses of and attendants on the word", see Luke 1:2. Joshua's experience here would no doubt account for his position in the tabernacle later, chapter 33. He represents a spiritual element. The first mention of Joshua is in chapter 17 where he contends with Amalek. It is Christ as the young believer begins to apprehend Him; as soon as he gets the Spirit there is the flesh working in him to militate against the Spirit. That is one stage of the history. But the same Joshua is
here Moses' attendant. It is not now a question of military service, but of being an attendant on Moses up there. He does not go up with Moses the second time, for chapter 34 brings out the greatness of the mediator by himself. Here Joshua is attending on Moses; if I am attending on the Lord in this wonderful scene of glory, I shall be ready for any other such scene.
F.I. Does that bring in the thought of what the Lord is to us as Head?
J.T. Yes; an attendant up there would see the wonderful working out of wisdom in Christ. Joshua represents one phase of our position, he is the spiritual man; Jehovah calls attention to him later, saying, "a man in whom is the Spirit", and that is to mark all who have part in the assembly. But we learn in chapter 32: 17 that Joshua was subject to failure in spite of his great privileges. This has its solemn voice for us all. It is a reminder to us that we must maintain circumcised ears.
Rem. The thought of attendant would agree with the thought of selection.
J.T. Yes. If the Lord is becoming great in our minds and we are attendants on Him, we will soon discern how wonderful He is in what He is doing. What can we say about what happens up there? What wonderful things were disclosed! How the ascent to the third heaven must have entered into and coloured Paul's ministry afterwards! The angel said to Manoah as to His name "it is wonderful", and He "did wondrously" and then He went up. Judges 13.
L.M. Moses took the book of the covenant and read it in the ears of the people. Luke alone speaks of the Lord touching the ear of the servant of the high priest and healing it, chapter 22: 51. The Lord would secure that, the hearing of ministry.
J.T. Moses first wrote the words of Jehovah, then
he took the book of the covenant and read it, and they said, "All that Jehovah has said will we do, and obey!" They repeated their committal; first the words were written, verse 4, and then read, verse 7. 1 suppose the idea of writing here is that the matter is fixed: so we are now committed to what is fixed; and they went up and saw the God of Israel.
Rem. We should be concerned as to ministry as to the end the Lord has in it, that we might go up.
J.T. Yes. We come together in the assembly as a public matter, and we partake of the Lord's supper. Then what follows? It is a question now of what the Lord will do. According to Judges 13 the angel who visited Manoah's wife "did wondrously", and He said His name was "wonderful", so that it is now a question of whether we are ready for that, for what the Lord will do for us.
A.E.L. You mean it is really our privilege now to ascend the mountain, not like Moses, alone, but as those who can join the Lord there.
J.T. That is the thought exactly, and it needs power in our souls. Luke does not stress that point: he refers to the memorial, he does not say anything about eating the supper, but Matthew and Mark stress the eating, and both say, "they went out to the mount of Olives", which implies power. Eating gives you a constitution for the assembly. John says the bread is His flesh; John 6:51, but Matthew does not mention the flesh, it is His body; it is a whole idea. Both Matthew and Mark take account of the terrible opposition there is, and we are to develop collectively. We are surrounded by opposition, and we need heart and power to go up.
Ques. Are you distinguishing now between being taken up, and the power within to rise up?
J.T. Yes, I think it is well to raise that point. When the Lord comes we shall not go up by the
power of the Spirit, the Lord takes us up; but in the assembly we go up by power in our souls. When the Lord comes, He will take every member of the assembly, whatever the formation, but because of the lack of separation and heart every member does not go up as in the assembly now.
Ques. Do you connect the thought of memorial with committal in Luke?
J.T. You get the thought of the ear in Luke -- how divine teaching would help us with a view to going up. These things are vital: if we are to continue down here and be of use to the Lord, there must be the apprehension of the assembly, and the service of it Godward.
F.I. Does it appear here that dignity was added to the seventy in going up? They are spoken of as "seventy elders", then they are spoken of as "the nobles".
J.T. Quite so, they are ennobled; they are called nobles above. The assembly is mentioned in Matthew 16, then the mount, then sonship, then the assembly administratively here on earth. That is the order of the truth. The greatness of the Person who is Head is the great thing to get hold of, and that we are constituted fit to be with Him in the glory. Thus we can have part in the assembly in a heavenly way.
E.C. They both rose up. Moses and the attendant, then follows immediately, "Moses went up to the mountain of God". In the last verse it speaks of Moses going up in relation to the cloud.
J.T. Yes. I apprehend that would be for them to see, to bring out the dignity of the mediator, how he went in. "The appearance of the glory of Jehovah was like a consuming fire on the top of the mountain, before the eyes of the children of Israel. And Moses went into the midst of the cloud, and ascended the mountain". That brings him into greater prominence. I can understand how in after years these seventy
would be men sought after. They had had experiences others did not have.
A.E.L. They saw the God of Israel.
J.T. Yes, and they are called nobles, and they ate and drank before God and He laid not His hand on them: they were in perfect liberty up there. So that Israel had in their midst certain wealth in these men. That is the idea now in the testimony here, there is wealth in those who understand the assembly and have part in it Godward.
Rem. They saw the God of Israel, and then the glory of Jehovah. Would the latter be a further thought?
J.T. Yes. "The God of Israel" has its own meaning; it is His connection with Israel. The glory of Jehovah is more personal. "The glory of Jehovah abode on mount Sinai, and the cloud covered it six days; and on the seventh day he called to Moses out of the midst of the cloud. And the appearance of the glory of Jehovah was like a consuming fire on the top of the mountain, before the eyes of the children of Israel". I suppose that would be a testimony: then the mediator went in there. It is the top of the mountain, the highest point. The mediator goes into the midst of the cloud and ascends the mountain. Christ "ascended up above all the heavens". Ephesians 4:10.
Ques. Do you suggest that there is in the assembly what answers to these things?
J.T. Exactly. If there is to be a heavenly testimony, there must be persons who have had access there. "It doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is", 1 John 3:2 -- that is literally in the future, but there is a present correspondence -- "as he is, so are we". What we are as His companions enters into the public testimony.
These men who went up into the mountain. Exodus 24, would be like the five hundred brethren to whom the Lord appeared; they would have a distinctive place. Paul knew them: he says, "some are fallen asleep", but "the greater part remain unto this present", 1 Corinthians 15:6.
Ques. I should like to ask a question as to going up. Is not the object that there might be worship to the Father? It has been said that when we are with Christ as Head all the references would be to the Father. But some have thought that the scripture referred to in Matthew (where Moses and Elias are typical saints and it is said they talked with Him) would perhaps give warrant for addressing the Lord in that intimacy.
J.T. I think it is right to do that at the beginning of the spiritual side of our service. It is quite right that the Lord should be owned and spoken to, but to continue it is the weakness, and to come back to it after the Father is addressed is hardly in keeping with the full thought of the service of God, in which Christ leads as the Minister of the sanctuary. Moses and Elias spoke with the Lord, but then the voice from heaven spoke of Him. Peter and the others were not equal to the scene then, but they were later as seen in the passage read from 2 Peter. Their experience entered into the service of the assembly.
Rem. There is the going up, and then what there is above.
J.T. The God of Israel is the thought; they saw Him and what was under His feet; the Mediator is there, but it is the God of Israel who is spoken of, and He did not lay His hand on them. Typically that would be the Father; God presented to us in this way to be worshipped.
Ques. Is it not important to be in the spirit of readiness and expectancy? We are often perhaps in danger of carrying on the meeting by doing things.
instead of waiting in the spirit of expectancy for what the Lord might do.
J.T. That suggestion is good: the spiritual ability to be quiet is needed. What is needed very largely, is instruction in regard to this great matter to get the brethren to let their thoughts move on right lines.
C.G. So it is important to have this light governing the service of God, before us.
J.T. Yes. Anyone can see from what has been before us that there is something very great to be gone in for. If we have to admit we do not know much about it, the next thing is to ask the Lord, and He will give us understanding."Who is this, [she] that cometh up from the wilderness
Like pillars of smoke ... ?" "Perfumed with myrrh and frankincense,
With all powders of the merchant". "Perfumed with myrrh and frankincense,
With all powders of the merchant". "King Solomon made himself a palanquin
Of the wood of Lebanon". "Its pillars he made of silver,
Its support of gold". "Go forth, daughters of Zion, And behold King Solomon
With the crown wherewith his mother crowned him
In the day of his espousals, And in the day of gladness of his heart". THE REMNANT THAT IS LEFT
ASSEMBLY ORDER
THE LORD'S SUPPER
FELLOWSHIP AND THE LORD'S SUPPER
THE GAIN OF CHRIST'S ABSENCE
THE NEW ORDER OF THINGS
THE FLOCK AND THE BODY
THE LORD KNOWETH THEM THAT ARE HIS
THE HOLY MOUNTAIN