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THE ASSEMBLY

Matthew 16:15 - 18; Acts 19:1 - 7; Song of Songs 3:6 - 11

I desire to say a little about the assembly and the features whereby it is recognized, and I have selected the passage of Scripture from the Song of Songs so as to call attention to these features. I begin with Matthew 16, the passage in that gospel which formally introduces the assembly. What it is may be gathered from the Lord's remarks to Simon; He says to him, "Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona", as answering His question, "Who do ye say that I am?" He refers to him by the name he bore in his responsibility. In the corresponding passage in John's gospel, the Lord says, "Thou art Simon, the son of Jonas" (John 1:42), omitting that he was blessed; but in Matthew the Lord addresses him by the name he bore in his responsibility, prefixing "blessed"; he was blessed in that he was so favoured as to receive the revelation about Christ from the Father in heaven. It was an immense favour, and would stand in relation to Simon in his responsibility while he remained on earth. No other had that particular favour; others were blessed in other connections, such as Mary, the mother of our Lord. She was blessed among women; that particular advantage would never depart from her in her path of responsibility here. Again, the woman who anointed the Lord in Simon the leper's house was specially distinguished, so much so that wherever the gospel was announced she was to be mentioned; what she had done was to be made known. She had a personal distinction that was peculiar to her, but no one had a distinction like that

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which was attributed to Simon: "Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona, for flesh and blood has not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in the heavens".

We have thus a man standing out in responsibility, but blessed; and it describes those of us who form the assembly in its public character, the assembly as seen in us as in flesh and blood conditions. The truth of the assembly at Corinth is an example: it was composed of men and women, old and young, who had believed in Christ, who had been baptized, and in consequence had received the Holy Spirit, but who were still remaining in their position in this world as responsible to God. Romans provides the material for the assembly from this point of view. The believer, in Romans, is Simon Bar-jona, blessed; it is the same person, of the same parents, the same family links, and in the same place; but a disciple, baptized and possessed of the Holy Spirit. We see in Simon the leper, a name attached to a believer in responsibility in a negative sense. Evidently he was not a leper then, for Jesus was at his house; but he has been so known, and the stigma attached to him; this would help him spiritually. But although a leper he was responsible to God, and the fulfilment of his responsibility is, in part, seen in that he entertained the Lord. The woman of whom I spoke anointed the Lord's head in that house.

Romans contemplates the believer from that angle. He has his body which he can use as a sacrifice; it is the same body in which he sinned, but by the Spirit it is now in his control; it is dead in regard to sin, but the Spirit in it is life in view of righteousness. And so he presents it to God a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable, which is his intelligent service. Believers viewed thus in the aggregate, being "one body in Christ" in any town, are treated as the assembly. They are still in responsibility, but in a collective sense, and God regards them not only as His people,

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but as His assembly -- a body subject to Christ, in which the Holy Spirit is free, and maintains what is due to God, and insists upon the keeping of the feast of unleavened bread. By the presence of the Holy Spirit, His responsible people are God's temple; 1 Corinthians 3:16. Whatever others may think of them, that is what they are, for the Spirit of God dwells in them, and moreover they are the body of Christ; 1 Corinthians 12:27. In them the features of Christ are exhibited in any city or place in which they may be; in them the presence of God is known.

An exercised person comes into one of their meetings, and there is ministry. The women are silent, they are suitably attired, and their heads are covered. The men are in subjection, they wait upon one another, they give place to the prophet because his ministry is the most desirable and profitable, see 1 Corinthians 11 to 14. And so one may discern in that company, in a particular room or building, in a particular street, that God is there, He has a footing among these people; the one who comes in may discern a place where everything is morally right, even the order of creation is not violated. Now that is what marks the assembly of God, and I take Simon, the son of Jonas, being blessed, as descriptive of those who form it.

Then the Lord goes on in the passage I read in Matthew to say to Peter, "And I also, I say unto thee that thou art Peter", not that thou shalt be called Peter, as in John's gospel, but "Thou art Peter", and the meaning of the word "Peter", as you all know, is a "stone". From this point of view Peter does not represent our responsible history, but rather the spiritual. He is a stone; he was constituted that by his confession; it refers to what he was spiritually. Of such material the assembly is built. It is the other view of the truth of it, not what it is locally in responsibility here, although greatly affecting this, but

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a wholly spiritual thing composed of persons who are so viewed.

Now unless we make this distinction in ourselves severally, and in the saints generally, we shall not arrive at the truth of the assembly, nor shall we recognize it. We shall be liable to regard companies that are not really of it, as of it, and we shall be unable to see how the assembly is to be the eternal companion of Christ. It is from the standpoint of Peter, that is to say, of what is wholly spiritual, that the assembly is to be the companion of Christ in heaven and the vessel of God's glory eternally. The responsible side will pass away, for in the new creation "there is no Jew nor Greek; there is no bondman nor freeman; there is no male and female; for ye are all one in Christ Jesus", Galatians 3:28. It is from that point of view that we form the assembly, as in the purpose of God. It is an immense thing for us to lay hold of this.

I read the passage in Acts 19 just to illustrate these two features. You will observe that it says, "While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul, having passed through the upper districts, came to Ephesus". Scripture is exceedingly accurate in the words and phrases it makes use of. God was pleased to work in Corinth in an extensive way, whereas there was but little in Athens. It suggests to us an answer to a question that often arises: Why is it that there is nothing for God in such and such a large centre? God knows! There indeed was some result at Athens, but very little; whereas the Lord says to Paul, as to Corinth, "I have much people in this city", Acts 18:10. Why he had them it does not say, but He had them. It was not on account of the lack of ministry at Athens, for Paul was there and preached there, but he was directed to remain at Corinth. He had a vision in the night so that he should know the mind of God regarding the work in that city.

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On entering Corinth from Athens, it says that Paul found Aquila and Priscilla there. Now that was not an accident; they were assembly people, representative of the assembly in its local character. Twice it is said that they had an assembly in their house. Paul lodged with them. It says also that they, being tent makers, were of the same craft as the apostle. Attention is thus called to the humility of the vessels, corresponding indeed with the smallness outwardly of the assembly; there was nothing in it to appeal to the man after the flesh. It was a question of tents, not great ecclesiastical structures, as in the world.

That is the introduction to Corinth; and the apostle remains there eighteen months, ministering the word of God. It was a question, really, of the antitype of the tabernacle, and so he ministered "the word of God". The tabernacle is that in which God is known in this world, and so it was the word of God. At Ephesus it was more the word of the Lord. Paul leaves Corinth and goes to Ephesus with Aquila and Priscilla, and leaving them there he goes to Jerusalem. Presently Apollos arrives at Ephesus, and is instructed in the way of God more exactly by Aquila and Priscilla. They did not do this in a public way; they took him to them. The perfecting of his instruction was important, for he was a great vessel. Now we are told that Apollos was at Corinth -- having left Ephesus commended by the brethren. He was there in regard to the responsible body; and being mighty in the Scriptures, his ministry watered the saints, and thus promoted the growth of that which Paul had planted. This represents a continuing ministry for the maintenance of the assembly in its responsible character here. It was while Apollos was at Corinth that Paul went to Ephesus. The feature of the assembly represented at Corinth was being cared for by this servant; and the apostle was comforted, doubtless, by the fact that Apollos was there.

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It says that Paul came by "the upper districts" to Ephesus. We are now on another line which corresponds with "Peter" -- the spiritual material; for God knew what was at Ephesus. He did not tell Paul that he had much people there, as at Corinth, but we may be sure that Paul had divine guidance. He arrived at Ephesus and found certain persons there who were believers, but who knew only the baptism of John. They represent many at the present time, persons who believe, but have not had a full gospel. There are many like that, for there is much defective teaching abroad; much teaching which comes very far short of the truth, but there is light in it, and God has respect for those who walk in the light they have; they are true to the light they have. First of all he asks, "Did ye receive the Holy Spirit when ye had believed?" For now it is a question of what is wholly spiritual, and if you have not the Spirit you are not material for the building.

Well, they had not heard of the Holy Spirit, and he tells them about Jesus, quoting John as saying to the people that they should believe on Him. "And when they heard that, they were baptized to the name of the Lord Jesus". They were ready for fresh light. I commend that to all here; if you have been true to the light you have, you will be ready for something fresh; you will not refuse it, you will accept it. They accepted what Paul said to them, and were baptized to the name of the Lord Jesus. This would take them wholly out of the world, and would introduce them to all that was set forth in that name. I cannot tell you all that Paul said to them, but elsewhere he says, "Having heard the word of the truth, the glad tidings of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, ye have been sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise", Ephesians 1:13. You may be sure that a touch of what is heavenly was conveyed to them in that gospel; there was something in it of the gospel of the glory as well

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as the gospel of their salvation, for in the epistle to the Ephesians, salvation means not only from wrath to come and the power of Satan, but also from this world as a place. Then there were twelve men who evidently received the Holy Spirit together; and thus, potentially, there was spiritual material for the assembly at Ephesus.

I go one point further to show the bearing of all this. In writing to them the apostle says, "Ye are no longer strangers and foreigners, but ye are fellow-citizens of the saints, and of the household of God, being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the cornerstone", Ephesians 2:19, 20. I want you to take note of the place "Jesus Christ himself" has in this structure: Himself -- it is very touching, especially in these last days. I take it that the foundation of the apostles and prophets, refers to their ministry; it was not for show -- foundations are not for show. The apostles never made a show of what they were doing, but their service always afforded testimony for God; what they were concerned about in laying the foundation was solidity and permanency -- material that would stand. It is a great tribute to them that the Holy Spirit says that the structure was on their foundation. But what about the corner stone, "Jesus Christ himself" -- that is to be seen! Christ is known in the assembly. It is said in connection with the virtuous woman in Proverbs 31, "Her husband is known in the gates"; she is a type of the assembly. The idea of the corner stone suggests what is seen; it binds all together and is ornamental. What it means to a spiritual person is, that Christ is everything to him -- that he thinks of Christ as "Jesus Christ himself!" There is no mediator between Christ and the assembly, "Jesus Christ himself being the corner-stone". In keeping with this, the heavenly city has no temple; God and the Lamb are the temple there.

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Revelation 2 and 3 contemplate distance, in view of the failure of the public body, but not so Ephesians -- Christ is Head as seen there.

Now I go on to the Song of Songs, to outline these features. The question is asked,

"Who is this, [she] that cometh up from the wilderness
Like pillars of smoke ... ?"

It is not here, "Leaning upon her beloved", as later, in chapter 8: 5; it is a question here of herself, what she is as the subject of the work of God, what she is as spiritual. What are these "pillars of smoke?" They indicate, I think, that she had to do with God, that she had offered sacrifices. I suppose the allusion is to the smoke of the sacrifices on the altar in the tabernacle. But she is not soiled by it nor by the defilement of the wilderness. She is not damaged by it; on the contrary, she is

"Perfumed with myrrh and frankincense,
With all powders of the merchant".

She does not bear a mark of the wilderness, but is perfumed. She is not a child of the wilderness like Hobab, who preferred to stay there. She has come out herself; it is not a question of Moses supporting her, she is coming out herself. She comes up answering perfectly to Christ,

"Perfumed with myrrh and frankincense,
With all powders of the merchant".

She has acquired all this at a price; it is a question here of what she is, what she has acquired, and that all is for Christ. And now Christ has something that He can call His own. "Behold his couch, Solomon's own". He is restful where these conditions are. The virtuous woman in Proverbs had much, but all was to glorify her husband; everything there indicated what he was; and so we get here, "Behold his couch,

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Solomon's own". That principle began at Pentecost, when nobody called anything he had his own; it was a question as to what was at the disposal of Christ. Am I at the disposal of Christ? The more spiritual I am, the more I am at His disposal. The assembly is Christ's -- something that He can regard as His own; "My assembly", as He says.

Then there are men of war to defend that. They were expert in war, threescore of them round about Solomon's couch, each having a sword. The idea is collective; the number is given, but each has his sword. Each is ready for alarm in the night. They are expert; if an alarm is sounded, they are ready to defend what belongs to Christ. Of the assembly it is said, that hades' gates shall not prevail against it.

And now Solomon, that is Christ, is free to provide something for Himself.

"King Solomon made himself a palanquin
Of the wood of Lebanon".

We are now on a high plane, for it is a question of the dignity of the saints, as indicated in the wood of Lebanon. He made it for himself. No doubt it refers to that on which he is borne by others, but he made it.

"Its pillars he made of silver,
Its support of gold".

And now instead of someone coming up out of the wilderness, there are "the daughters of Jerusalem"; they are not daughters of the wilderness. Many of us come into fellowship, who have barely escaped from the world, and are content to remain in the wilderness; such do not want to go into Canaan -- to take up the heavenly calling. "The midst thereof was paved with love", we are told, not for the daughters of Jerusalem, but by or "from" them, as the better

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rendering puts it; it was what they were doing. Paving is severe work; you have to get down to pave. They paved with love -- what fine material that is! And then there is the appeal to the daughters of Zion, "Go forth, daughters of Zion". Thus we move from the wilderness to the full purpose of God. Of ourselves it is said, "Ye have come to mount Zion", Hebrews 12:22. It is the principle of sovereign mercy on which we stand, as we read, "God, being rich in mercy, because of his great love wherewith he loved us ... has raised us up together, and has made us sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus", Ephesians 2:4, 6. Zion represents sovereign selection; God refers to it in that way: "Here will I dwell, for I have desired it", Psalm 132:14. There is nothing safer than to fall back on the sovereign mercy of God. He loves us to be in that position, and He loves to recognise us in it. It is there we get great love and rich mercy, and in the light and enjoyment of these we are, so to speak, "daughters of Zion". A daughter signifies a subjective result of the light presented. The daughters of Zion are called upon to go forth; it says,

"Go forth, daughters of Zion, And behold King Solomon
With the crown wherewith his mother crowned him
In the day of his espousals, And in the day of gladness of his heart".

All this refers to the affectionate recognition in the saints of the official glory of Christ. "His mother" no doubt alludes to Israel as brought to this in a future day. The action of the woman in the house of Simon the leper foreshadows this; she anointed the Lord's head. She, however, represents more, prefiguring those who form the assembly. The

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answer to the question, "Who is this?" Matthew 21:10, is obvious if you are spiritual. The Lord asks such a question with regard to Himself. In Mark Peter says, "Thou art the Christ", chapter 8: 29; in Luke, that He is "The Christ of God", chapter 9: 20; but in Matthew the addition is made, "The Son of the living God", verse 16. It is a question of revelation, and so the Lord names the result: "thou art Peter". This, as we have seen, enters into the constitution of the assembly, making it wholly spiritual; each member of it, as it were, is "Peter". This is the result of light in the soul as to the Person of Christ, which each member of the assembly normally has by the Spirit. You can only be in the assembly by the Spirit.

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THE REMNANT THAT IS LEFT

Isaiah 37:4, 22, 31, 32; Leviticus 10:12 - 15; John 6:66 - 69

The words "that are left" are in my mind. We are living in remnant times, and it is well to have an understanding of the times so as to know what is to be done, what Israel is to do. An understanding of the times implies that one is conversant with the assembly's history, I do not refer to the histories that have been written since apostolic times, but the history written during apostolic times, that is, the inspired prophetic history of the assembly in Revelation 2 and 3. One has to be conversant with that in order to have an understanding of the times; and it speaks of a period of great departure from the truth, only a few being left. That period of "falling away" (2 Thessalonians 2:3), continues, having varied features.

I wish to speak of what is regarded by the Spirit of God as "left" of the original as contemplated in the history, and Isaiah serves in a special way to bring this out. He is by no means a doleful prophet: he is a triumphant, buoyant prophet, and he deals with what is left showing how it becomes in due course a complete whole; for if we are to be with God, beloved friends, in our service and testimony, we are to have completeness in our minds. We could not have the Lord's supper rightly today, were we to confine ourselves in our thoughts to a part of the whole: to regard ourselves thus would indeed be sectarian. The Lord's supper is of no force save in the light of the whole assembly. The Lord said, "Take, eat: this is my body", and added to that in 1 Corinthians 10 is, "We, being many, are ... one body", not a part of a body, "for we are all partakers of that one bread". I wish to work out my subject on those lines, that, as beginning with what

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is left, we end with a whole or complete thought, There is no other thought in the mind of God, nor is there any other in the mind of the intelligent Christian; and this expands him and maintains him here for God according to His mind. One could illustrate that from numerous passages in the Old and New Testaments, showing the whole thought is always in mind. I dwell upon it at the beginning, lest young people should be partaking of the Lord's supper with any less thought than that, and so become sectarian in mind and practice. You may look at what is left, and say, Well, there is very little. But the nearer you get to God, the greater what is left becomes in your mind. It becomes enlarged and expanded, until it is seen as "coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband". It is a great city, corresponding in every way with the administrative requirements of God. It comes down from God out of heaven, having the glory of God, and its light is most precious.

Isaiah helps us as to this. If we consider ourselves as here tonight, what is left in numbers in our localities is small, and sometimes we become very discouraged because of this, and the enemy of our souls would press it in upon us. We see this in Rabshakeh intimating that Hezekiah could not put riders on two thousand horses. The enemy would say to you, Look at the little meeting you have over the grocery store, and contrast it with that great cathedral with its fine music, etc., or look at those people that get up at five o'clock in the morning and attend mass; look at the numbers of them! Rabshakeh represents this side of Satan's efforts. He would press the greatness of current religious organizations upon you and discourage you, until you will perhaps even join some of them. Hezekiah had no such thoughts; nor did the men on the wall.

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They were enjoined to answer nothing. Believers belong to greater things than cathedrals or the most renowned organizations of men. Hezekiah was led into the knowledge of this by the messages sent him by Jehovah. In the meantime he rent his garments, and sent a beautiful, feeling message to Isaiah, the servant of God. He says to him, "Lift up a prayer for the remnant that is left". That is the word, dear brethren. The remnant that is left, small as it may be, is to be prayed for. Will not God hear? There is great encouragement in one's heart tonight (this being the usual night for prayer) as one thinks of the hundreds of places where prayer has been raised for the remnant that is left. God hears, as Isaiah's message to Hezekiah shows.

Then Rabshakeh writes a letter to Hezekiah, and Hezekiah spreads it out before the Lord, in the house of the Lord. That would show that a young believer, as pressed by the enemy on account of the smallness of things in his locality, might rightly send a message to someone whom he knows is in relation to God. It is of great importance for young believers to maintain acquaintance with those who are in prayerful relations with God. Hezekiah regarded Isaiah in this way. He says, "thy God". It is very important to know the man to whom to send if you are in soul need. Be sure he is the right man or you will be misled. Hezekiah sent to a known "man of God" and obtained a divine answer. But then in asking aid from another the thought comes to you, Why not go myself to God? That is an important matter especially for young people. Why not go to God yourself? The enemy is pressing on you -- it may be that the fellow-workers in the office are taunting you about the miserableness of your little meeting, or about your teachers, or preachers: they are not college men, etc. Why not go to God yourself about these things? You will get encouragement as you

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do so. The second time Hezekiah went himself to the house of God. That is how priestly ability is promoted, and he spread the letter he had received from Rabshakeh before God. He told Jehovah the whole matter. I may not be able to speak eloquently to men, but God will listen to the most broken or ungrammatical words, for He reads the heart. "He that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit", and He makes intercession for the saints according to God. The whole case is in your heart and God understands it as there. To this prayer of Hezekiah a second answer from Jehovah is sent through Isaiah. It is much fuller than the first and promises complete triumph over the Assyrian, as we shall see.

God does not say anything at all at the first about the remnant that was left. If you get into your closet with God, you see with Him the things that be not as though they were: you get the sense that "all things are possible" with Him. And so a triumphant word is sent back to the enemy. The once feeble christian, cowering at his taunts, now says, "The daughter of Zion hath despised thee, and laughed thee to scorn; the daughter of Jerusalem hath shaken her head at thee". That is not merely the remnant that is left. "Zion" is a great spiritual principle, involving a complete or whole thought. Scripture abounds with it. Think of being a daughter of Zion! And what kind of a daughter? A virgin daughter. That is to say, a daughter that is "unconquered", see note on 2 Kings 19:21 (New Trans.). She has never come under the power of Assyria or the world. Can an enemy stand against that? No. Behind that is all that God is. God dwells in those who as keeping His commandments, love Him. Who can overcome Him, or them in whom He dwells? "Greater is he that is in you than he that is in the world". 1 John 4:4. Then there is "the daughter

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of Jerusalem". Zion is a great principle. It is the ground upon which God took us up when we were unconverted. "According to his mercy he saved us", The idea of Zion comes to a christian as he listens to the gospel and believes in Christ. The God who took you up and saved you then saves you now. He is the defender of Zion. I want you young people to hold this thought in your minds when people talk to you about your little meeting (I am not saying that the little meeting might not be larger!) -- but what God has saved out of the wreck, as it were, however small, is not to be despised: God clothes it with all His thoughts. It is the whole idea that is there in that little "upper room" as intelligent christians come together to partake of the Lord's supper. As spiritually intelligent they are full of a whole thought, and God takes note of it, and brings them into the fulness and blessedness of the assembly.

So we have the daughter of Zion and the daughter of Jerusalem. The last is one that understands government; government in, and going out from, the assembly. We have what we call 'care meetings', which are very important meetings, They imply that there are those who care for the saints. We have been speaking in these meetings about the Gershonites. The Gershonites looked after the curtains of the tabernacle; that suggests principles. These would come out more in Bible readings and in ministry generally, but at care meetings what comes into evidence, is the persons of the saints -- although the former necessarily at times combines with the latter. Every one of the saints is precious. Were we only to know how valuable each saint is to God, he would be an object of care to us. Even a weak brother is precious; Romans 14:15. The weak brother for whom Christ died, as precious, is to be cared for. So in these care meetings we talk over these matters, and the Lord

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helps us. They are not administrative meetings: they are deliberative meetings. They are meetings into which wisdom enters, a wisdom greater than enters into any of the councils of this world, a wisdom that is "from above". That is the idea of them. All young brothers are developed there, as sons of Jerusalem. But what about the daughters? Some say the sisters do not know of what transpires at care meetings. If a sister is truly a daughter of Jerusalem, she will know. She will know if she inquires, and she will inquire as having the Lord's interests at heart, see 1 Corinthians 14:35. Do you think Anna would not know of things that were current in the temple in her day? She would know. She represents what I am speaking of. She was a daughter of Jerusalem. She was a daughter of Zion also, as every true believer is, as I have said; but a daughter of Jerusalem is one that is concerned about Jerusalem and what it represents. Anna was marked by this; she spoke of Christ to all those who waited for redemption in Jerusalem, Luke 2:38. And so all the sisters may be conversant with matters relative to the assembly. As daughters of Zion and of Jerusalem thus, the saints prove the power of God as with His people, and they despise the Assyrian enemy and laugh him to scorn. The daughter of Jerusalem knows that the wisdom of God is operative, the wisdom of which Proverbs 8 speaks. That wisdom is the same that is with the brothers as in some obscure room they converse together about the saints and their welfare, and it eventuates in the defeat of the gates of hades, Matthew 16:18; therefore the daughter of Jerusalem laughs to scorn the opposition, instead of cowering before it in the office or in the workshop. She is superior to the attack.

Another thing comes out in our chapter in Isaiah; "The remnant that is escaped of the house of Judah shall again take root downward, and bear fruit upward", verse 31. There is no gainsaying that what is

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in this continent, what "is left", is very small. To ignore that fact is to be at a disadvantage. It is not only small in quantity, pardon me for saying this, but it is poor in quality, relatively speaking, but that is no reason why I should turn my back upon it: it is for me to make it better. For if I speak of the poverty of things, I have to begin with myself, what I have, and what I am contributing, and that applies to every one of us. So the word is, "take root downward" -- that is another great point with Isaiah. It means that one gets down into the soil in which he is set, that one is not ambitious, nor living in the sense of his own importance. There will be no growth for God in that state. The growth is in getting down into the earth where the power of life is: being "rooted and grounded in love". That means that one renounces one's self, so that one becomes planted of the Father. How beautiful that is! "Every plant", says the Lord, "which my heavenly Father has not planted, shall be rooted up". One comes under the gracious agricultural skill of the Father; and He plants me in the best possible soil so that root is taken, but to "take root downward" is more than being planted. You can see the point of it, how the roots of the tree spread out and strike downwards because of the energy of life in the tree and in the soil. Aside from life in the plant there can be no growth, and aside from life in the soil there can be no growth. There must be both ideas, and then fruit for God is borne upward.

In the second scripture, we have the priesthood -- those which "were left" of the priests, Aaron and his two sons; they are few; if two thousand riders cannot be put on two thousand horses, we may be sure there are not many priests. We may be sure that the fewness of warriors is because of the fewness of priests. But then you see from the first scriptures I read, how the priesthood comes into evidence. As I was saying, I am oppressed by the opposition and I send to a

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priest, a man that I know can pray. I send to the right man. There are such; and I advise every young person here to get to know them, the men who pray to God. But then, in doing that I think of praying to God myself, and that is how the priesthood becomes enlarged. There is a sense of need as one is pressed by circumstances of various kinds, and he says, "I will lift up mine eyes unto the hills, from whence cometh my help? My help cometh from the Lord, which made heaven and earth". There is a man developing in the priesthood. He has been looking elsewhere, and rightly asking a brother to pray for him; now he prays for himself: and I ask you young people here, How much of this marks you? What you see in this chapter is that there were four sons of Aaron, but two of them die -- and not an ordinary death. What comes out in these types shows extraordinary things happening. Some people think that none of these things are happening now, that since the fathers fell asleep all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. It is not so. Every true christian is a miracle. There are current occurrences in the sense of blessing that are greater than physical cures, and they are constant. The same may be said of God's judicial dealings. In Numbers 16 you get the earth opening and swallowing men down, men dying thus under the judgment of God. The present period is not a time of wrath -- it is a time of grace, but still the government of God is inevitable: it is against rebellion, and the Lord says of Jezebel, "I will kill her children with death", Revelation 2:23. Is not that serious? It is a greater thing, in a sense, than was the death of Korah and his company! Perhaps you never thought of that. Why should the Lord kill with death? We have to understand it spiritually. Here are two men, priests. They have that position in Israel. They are the two elder sons of Aaron, Nadab and

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Abihu, and each takes his censer and offers strange fire -- a most serious matter, Possibly amongst ourselves, dear brethren, strange fire in a modified sense is sometimes offered to God, and one has to challenge one's self when one is taking part in the assembly. What is one's motive? A man may use excellent language in speaking to God, but what is his motive, what is behind it? The "fire" is what gives effect to it. If it is "strange", the spiritual feel it, and God feels it. But what is before us in Leviticus 10, is a more extended and serious matter. It typifies a great happening in the assembly; the unrestrained human mind become active in the worship of God. This solemn occurrence corresponds with the rebellion of the Levites as recorded in Numbers 16.

That is the setting in this chapter, and the word is to the priests that are left. What is to happen to them? Are they not to be on their guard, are they not to be careful? It is a most solemn chapter. I cannot go into it fully now, but I want to call attention to the fact that Aaron, Eleazar and Ithamar were not to uncover their heads (Leviticus 10:6), they were not to go out of the sanctuary. The priesthood, however reduced, must continue. No matter how terrible the happenings, there must be no relinquishment of priestly service in the assembly. The enemy would bring in troubles amongst us and seek to prevent the saints turning to God, but there must be no relinquishing, whatever happens. I want to show you, further, that if those that are left of the priests are to continue priests, they must eat, and they must eat priests' food, not ordinary food. And then, a certain feature of it must be eaten in a holy place, and other features in a "clean place": the former is typified in the oblation that is left of Jehovah's offerings by fire; the latter is the breast of the wave-offering and the shoulder of the heave-offering.

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I would appeal to young christians as to where they eat. There is a great deal of eating going on professedly in relation to God, but is it in suitable places? That is a matter for everybody to consider. It is not only the food but where I eat it. I would not like to say anything against our brethren who are in the so-called systems around us, but it is obligatory to call attention to conditions, that there are places, so-called christian organizations, that are not clean places: they are not holy places. They are unholy because of the very fact that they are sectarian. No one who reads the types (and they are written for us) will fail to note the great stress laid on holiness both as to persons and place. The types refer to God's requirements in the assembly, which New Testament teaching shows. Thus the Spirit of God would challenge us as to what and where we are eating as christians. It is well to face this, dear brethren, Are you to continue, are you to go on in active service? If you are, you must eat the food that is provided for the priest and you must eat it in a holy place. This passage says: "Take the meat offering that remaineth of the offerings of the Lord made by fire, and eat it without leaven beside the altar: for it is most holy: and ye shall eat it in the holy place, because it is thy due, and thy sons' due, of the sacrifices of the Lord made by fire: for so I am commanded, And the wave breast and heave shoulder shall ye eat in a clean place; thou and thy sons, and thy daughters with thee: for they be thy due, and thy sons' due, which are given out of the sacrifices of peace offerings of the children of Israel. The heave shoulder and the wave breast shall they bring with the offerings made by fire of the fat, to wave it for a wave offering before the Lord; and it shall be thine, and thy sons' with thee, by a statute for ever; as the Lord hath commanded", Leviticus 10:12 - 15.

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It is a question of the most excellent of the offerings presented to God by His people. It is Christ in the most excellent features in which He is presented in the saints: the oblation, the breast of the wave-offering, and the shoulder of the heave-offering -- all these precious parts are "thy due, and thy sons' due", as Moses says to Aaron. It is your right to have them. Are any here depriving themselves of what is their right, in linking themselves with systems where the altar of the Lord is not, where the clean place is not, and where the holy place is not? May I urge you to inquire into this and to take up your priestly food, and priestly functions in the place where the altar of the Lord is, where the clean place is, and where the holy place is. These belong to the assembly. You may be uncertain as to the assembly -- what it is and where it is, but if you are sincerely desirous to know the Lord will not leave you in uncertainty; He will give you understanding in all things, 2 Timothy 2:7. It is for you to find where the assembly, in the principle of it, is, and see that you are there and that you enjoy your portion in it; in that way you appropriate your priestly food and have part in the priestly functions of the saints of God.

In the last scripture, John 6:66, we have again the thought of some left. You will observe that "from that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him". This was a testing time; here we must be prepared for such times. Many went back. Why did they go back? Because the Lord Jesus was speaking of the most spiritual things, speaking of Himself as the bread of God that came down from heaven. What He was saying was spirit and life. Unbelievers cannot stand such ministry. As the apostle Paul says, "The time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; ... they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears", 2 Timothy 4:3.

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The apostle speaks elsewhere of "ten thousand instructors", but here they heap them to themselves. Is there any spiritual order in a heap of teachers? There is no spiritual order, balance or discrimination in it at all. The instruction of Scripture governing levitical service conveys no idea of a heap of teachers. That can apply only to the fitful, irresponsible, natural religious mind, contemplated in the second epistle to Timothy. Think of the disorderly condition of the mind that heaps to itself teachers! It is because of "itching ears" that cannot endure sound doctrine. John 6 is a very long chapter. It is full of details, but every word in it is excellent, for it is about Jesus who is the precious food that came down from God out of heaven. Many of His disciples had been murmuring, now they ceased to walk with Him. Is there any Christian here who is not walking with Jesus? What companionship have you? It may be that someone here is in this class -- one who has turned away and is walking no more with Him. Sometimes murmuring is heard as spiritual thoughts are ministered; one says, "I do not understand what they are talking about". Why do you not understand? Others do. It is because of your state; you murmur, as they did at Capernaum, according to our chapter, and that will soon be replaced, unless you judge yourself, by your turning away from the Lord and those who seek to do His will, and you cast about among the different sects to find a preacher suitable to your ear. According to your present state of mind, it is not a question of what is said: it is how it is said. But that is not the 6th of John. The Lord says, "The words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life". It is what the words are.

They did not all turn away back at Capernaum: thank God in all drifts from the truth some are left. The Lord says to the twelve, "Will ye also go away?"

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And He would ask this of every one here tonight. Peter replies, "To whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life". You see how that which is left, dear brethren, is to continue, and to continue in the greatest conception of things, and that the Lord Jesus alone is the centre. He never fails. Who else is there to go to? Cast about and tell me to whom you could go? This is how Peter puts it. It is a negative, but we are often guided negatively. If there is no one, then we must not move at all. There is no one but Christ for the true believer. It is not only that the Lord spoke things about life but He had the words of eternal life. He is the one to stand by, dear brethren. It is an appeal to our hearts, a question of what the Lord has, and Peter as "being one of the twelve". Twelve represents what the Lord can use. After all, what is left is sufficient for the Lord to carry on with. As we were saying, there were two priests left. We can go on with two: "If two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven". These are priests owned of God. But now we have not only two but twelve priests of God, and through the twelve God approaches men in grace. The Lord spoke to the twelve here, the full administrative number. It is not exactly a question of apostleship here, but the great principle conveyed in the number, which always applies. The Lord goes on in relation to it.

He challenges the twelve. Peter says, "We have believed and known", He is a leader in what he says, There are brethren here, dear young people, who have believed and known. All that can be said of some of you is that you "have believed", but there are those around you who have believed and known. That is the way it should read. And what have they believed and known? That Christ is the Holy One

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of God. He is the true Aaron of God. Peter and the other disciples, although as I said, representing administration, are, so to speak, His sons. They belong to the true Aaron. They prove themselves to be that. "We have believed and known that thou art the holy one of God". It is a question here of holiness, and Peter shows that he belongs to the true priesthood. But then the Lord's answer is most serious. Even these twelve have to be challenged, searched inwardly. "One of you", He says, "is a devil". Thank God it is not two of you, as with the priests of old; it is just one, but how solemn the indictment. The Lord was not concerned about the external number: He is concerned about quality, and He exposes what is unreal. No one need think he can pass the scrutinizing eye of the Lord. It is not here the word "demon" but "devil", and not that he has one but that he is one. It is to put us on our guard. In the twelve we are reminded that the Lord's administration has a universal bearing. If there is a book of spiritual ministry published, it is for the whole assembly. That is the position. The Lord is administering in relation to the whole; but if there is a devil, He will not let him pass. He is concerned about quality -- reality, holiness. He will carry on to the end, but He will carry on with those who, like Peter, say, "We have believed and known that thou art the holy one of God".

May the Lord grant us help to understand what "is left", and to see how it comes in for the whole thought and appears presently as the result of the mighty workmanship of God as the holy city whose light is most precious, coming down from God out of heaven, having the glory of God.

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ASSEMBLY ORDER

1 Corinthians 14

J.T. I think John presents the assembly from the spiritual point of view; that is, what the assembly is as formed by the Spirit, and its inner privileges; whereas Corinthians presents it in its external character as that in which the divine order is seen here in this world; so that the apostle makes a point of what the outer world might see in the assembly. Therefore he says -- "Let all things be done decently and in order".

Rem. It is manifestly on a lower plane than John 20.

J.T. Yes, I think so. Corinthians is the assembly of God viewed in its local character as that in which divine order is displayed. In that way Corinthians corresponds with the book of Numbers, which sets forth the testimony in the wilderness. I think that the wilderness may be divided into three sections. The first section is what the people under God had known in pure grace, as having been delivered by Him out of Egypt. Then followed the legal period: that is, the people under law; and lastly, the people viewed typically as having the Spirit. This latter is prefigured in the book of Numbers from chapter 21 onwards.

Ques. Would that answer to Romans 5 to 8?

J.T. No. Romans does not give us the collective side, whereas Numbers does. The book of Numbers is in relation to the tabernacle, and the priesthood, and the Levites. This chapter 14 of 1 Corinthians gives us the assembly as convened, and shows the order and operations that are there.

Ques. Will you give an outline of what leads up to this, from chapter 11?

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J.T. Well, I think that the details will all come in their right place if we see that it is the assembly viewed as established here under the eye of the world, and not the assembly viewed in its heavenly relationship as in John 20. So the apostle speaks of the Jews, and the gentiles, and the assembly of God. It was a very great thought with God that He should have His assembly. It could be taken account of as an institution set up here, apart from the world, but in the presence of the world.

Rem. In contrast to that which is purely the work of the Spirit of God, and under God's eye.

J.T. Yes, just so; that is more John's line; he presents the inside view, whereas in Corinthians it is the outer aspect -- what is under the eye of the world. It is one thing to be here, in this world, under the grace of God; that is the wilderness position up to Exodus 19. It was all a question of pure grace, and a very wonderful period; but then, if God is to have an organization in the presence of the world, there must be a rule; and the collective testimony stands related to the law. I am not referring to the law now merely as that which brings the knowledge of sin; the law is really a type; it was the declaration of God's rights. The tabernacle was set up in connection with the law, and the book of Numbers depends on the tabernacle; so that the collective testimony in the types stands related to the law. What answers to that in the New Testament is the first epistle to the Corinthians.

Rem. There we get God's order for His house, and God's order has to be observed.

J.T. Yes; so that this epistle is what you may call "the law of the house". The order that is spoken of here is not for heaven, and it necessarily terminates; but what we have in the gospel of John is eternal.

Ques. Does not verse 37 confirm what you say --

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"If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord"?

J.T. Yes. We cannot suppose that God would have a system of things here without rule.

E.J.McB. Government is a great principle with God.

J.T. Yes; so that one prominent feature in the temple was the cherubim, not only in the holiest of all, but also upon the walls and upon the doors. The cherubim, I think, represent God's government; the holiness of God is seen in the seraphim. The assembly is a provisional order of things filling up the interval between the ascension of Christ from the earth, and His appearing in glory; and it is established in the way of testimony. That is, God's order is to be displayed under the eyes of men before it is displayed literally in the heavenly city. So that here, it may be noticed, the apostle is concerned about the impression made on those who are without. For instance, if anyone came into the assembly and went out again, he would report what he saw inside -- he would have to confess "that God ... is indeed amongst you"; and he would gather that by observing the order that was found there.

E.J.McB. Because there was inside that which was for the believer and also for the unbeliever.

J.T. Yes, the unbeliever is supposed to be able to take account of what is of God there; so that he is convicted; he is impressed that God is there. I think that is a great point.

Rem. A brother here told us, some time ago, about a person being exercised about the truth, who heard through another of a little meeting near the place where he lived, and he said, 'I cannot say much about it, but what struck me was that God was there'.

J.T. The great thought to lay hold of is that it

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is God's assembly; it is not man's; it is the sphere in which God is dominant. Hence the importance of the instructions that the apostle gives; and he intimates that the instructions which were to govern the Corinthian assembly were to govern all the other assemblies; so that you have what one might call a catholic system; that is, the government is the same universally.

E.J.McB. So that order is of great importance, because God is a God of order.

J.T. "God is not a God of disorder but of peace, as in all the assemblies of the saints".

Ques. What part of Corinthians answers to the second part of the book of Numbers?

J.T. The second part of Numbers is not a type of the epistle to the Corinthians, but I think that up to chapter 20 it is. What we see there is the tabernacle and the people set in relation to it; every male in the camp was taken account of "from twenty years old and upwards". I take that to represent believers as having the Spirit. Each was to pitch by the standard of his father's house. I think the age of manhood has reference to one who has the Spirit. The age of thirty would allude probably to the effect of the Spirit. In the book of Numbers what is striking is the order in which everything is arranged. It was a very great sight to behold a company of that magnitude all controlled in relation to the tabernacle.

Ques. In that way would you view what we have here as the instructions following on chapter 11?

J.T. Well, I am speaking of the epistle as a whole. What I would like to make clear, if I can, is the setting of the epistle. The assembly is not viewed here in its heavenly privileges, but as the sphere of God's government and order in the presence of the world during the absence of Christ -- Israel, where these testimonies were, being forsaken. It is God's assembly in contrast to what man might have. Man had much in the city of Corinth, but God had introduced

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something for Himself into Corinth, and that was His assembly.

E.J.McB. I think what would confirm that in one's mind is that no unbeliever could enter into what the other side involves -- John 20. It is perfectly clear that what is spiritual is entirely shut up to the believer.

J.T. The doors are shut against the unbeliever.

Ques. Would you connect what you were saying with the announcement of His death? "Ye do shew the Lord's death till he come".

J.T. Yes. The announcement is a testimony here where Christ died. It does not say so, but in the context it is clear. Christ was put to death by men, and the fellowship is the fellowship of His death. That places the world at issue with God, and at issue with Christ; and we take sides against it. The world has expressed its estimate of Christ, and we express ours. The death of Christ is the expression of the world's hatred, and we take account of it in another way: it is the centre of our fellowship.

Rem. That would be in chapter 10, would it not?

J.T. Yes, but it is also alluded to in chapter 11. It says -- "Ye announce". The point in chapter 10 is to show that the individual member of the assembly is not independent; he is in a fellowship. Chapter 10 shows that no individual member of the assembly can do what he pleases in the world; and chapter 14 shows that he cannot do what he pleases in the assembly. So that in either case it is to set aside independency. Even if you have gift, your gift does not warrant you to be independent, for it is not given for you, but for the assembly.

Ques. Would chapter 10 be the individual side, and chapter 11 the collective side?

J.T. The point in the former is that you are to behave yourself rightly outside when your brethren are not looking at you. The question is -- are you an honest man? You have committed yourself to a

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fellowship, and you are where, perhaps, your brethren cannot see you. In the assembly they can see what you are doing, and hear what you are saying; so that the test is put to us as to whether we are going to be true men. An individual who links himself with the world really links the company with the world. That brings in another question, and that is, if you are not true you have to do with more than the saints, you have to do with Christ. So the apostle says, "Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?" You may provoke your brethren for a while, but if you provoke Christ. He will overcome you; you will come to grief. I believe that the so-called Christian world is at issue with Christ in that way. They have taken His name, and they are not true to it, and hence He is jealous, and "jealousy is cruel as the grave". So that the Lord has power, and it will go ill with Christendom in time. The Lord has long patience. He waits long; but whether it be against the individual or the system, the Lord is bound to overcome. In meetings where there is looseness of walk and independence, the brethren may have to bear with it long, and perhaps have not the power to deal with it, but in the end it is as sure as can be that the person involved finds himself in a position which everybody discerns to be the judgment of the Lord.

E.J.McB. I suppose that is seen in the expression, "For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep".

J.T. That is in regard to conduct in the assembly, but the principle is true. It is most serious to link up Christ with the world; it is connecting Him with what is idolatrous. The religious world is the Babylonish world. "Pure religion" is all right, but if it is divorced from Christ it is Babylonish.

E.J.McB. What you have been saying is very solemn, that you move about in a sphere where your

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brethren cannot see you, but where the Lord takes account of you.

J.T. It was the Babylonish world from which the people of Israel suffered, after they left Egypt. "I will transport you beyond Babylon" came in after the golden calf, and we know that Balaam came from that direction, and the goodly Babylonish garment was in Jericho. These are elements of the Babylonish world. The people thought of going back to Egypt; but they did not go back to Egypt, they went to Babylon. I do not think that christendom intends to go back to the world in that sense -- it is too proud for that. It would not go back into naked paganism, because the light of christianity has added immensely to the world, and it makes the assumption of being superior to anything that ever existed before.

Rem. To maintain the assembly order of which you have been speaking, we must have the "love" which is set forth in chapter 13. Gift in itself will not maintain it. Is not that why chapter 13 is put between chapters 12 and 14?

J.T. The machinery could not run properly without chapter 13; it is like oil.

Rem. Chapter 14 begins by saying -- "Follow after love".

J.T. If we follow the teaching of the chapters, I think the 11th sets Christ before the affections, and the 12th is the activity of the Spirit in ministry showing how He operates in the gifts; and then the 13th is that which all may have. It will not do to say that such an one has not much gift, or that he has gift; the question is, What have you got? There is no reason why each one should not have something. It is a poor thing to depend upon those who have gift; the question with each should be. What have I got?

Ques. Do you think gifts are to be acquired? It says, "Covet earnestly the best gifts".

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J.T. I think desire divinely produced, qualifies us for the gift, and God bestows gift accordingly.

Ques. What would be the "best gifts" the apostle refers to?

J.T. That is the gift of prophecy, as the apostle shows. The point is, what can I make most use of for the edifying of the assembly; so that if you have not what is treated of in chapter 13, viz., love, gift is only a detriment.

Ques. The whole point in chapter 14, I suppose, is edification?

J.T. Yes, that is the point; so that the apostle says he would rather speak five words to edification than a thousand in an unknown tongue. The assembly is an organism, and each member of it is essential to it; so the question for each is -- What can I do?

Ques. I was thinking of the verse in Ephesians which says, "Unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ". How do you understand "according to the measure of the gift of Christ?"

J.T. That shows that each has something, and what he has is according to the wisdom and giving of Christ. It is according to Christ's measure -- you have nothing to complain of. Then there are specific gifts which He gives to certain ones who are qualified, and that also for the edifying of the assembly.

Rem. You would say that He gives what each vessel can hold; it is according to His giving. He would not give anyone that which he would not be able to hold.

J.T. No. He gives according to the capacity. Now, the question in chapter 14 is, as to the part you take in the assembly, and the point is that you are to act intelligently.

Rem. Such as on the first day of the week?

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J.T. Yes, or at any other time, as when we are together for ministry. The wonderful thing is that God has brought into this world a company of persons spiritually intelligent, so that when they come together everything is done in order and intelligently. There is an intelligent faculty in the assembly which is self-governing, so that although there is no president, there is no irregularity and no disorder. The assembly has the mind, the thinking faculty of Christ.

Rem. That was fully seen at the outset.

J.T. Well, we ought to walk in the light of it now. If a brother takes the whole meeting, that is not intelligent, because we should recognize that the assembly of God is composed of intelligent individuals, and the clerical idea is foreign to it. There may be others there who have something to say -- something which the Lord would like to hear, and which the saints would like to hear.

Rem. The spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

J.T. Yes, a person might say, "I could not help getting up, I was pressed". But the point arises, Is it the time for it? If what you have is from the Lord, it will not go from you. I do not think that divine things are harmed for being kept.

Rem. I suppose the coming together contemplated in this chapter would be more for the object of profiting from the gifts; it should be distinguished in that way from the meeting on the Lord's Day, I suppose.

J.T. I think it is; it supposes "the whole assembly come together in one place", and one has a tongue, another an interpretation, and so on. I take it that they rightly have these things before they come, whereas the assembly proper as come together on the first day of the week, is simply for Christ.

Rem. It is a question of what He will do.

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J.T. Yes, you are waiting on the Lord. But here it is supposed that you have something; and the question is, what are you going to do with what you have? How are you going to use it? The great point that is emphasised is that we should act intelligently.

Rem. The apostle is not deprecating what they had, but regulating it.

J.T. Quite so. I have carried things for months, and I think we all should until there is an opportunity to give it out. If it is an opportune time, give it out; but the point is, you are not to give out what you have simply because you have it.

E.J.McB. I take your thought to be that whilst we should be always in a state to help one another, what we have should be used intelligently, and spoken at a time when it is to the best advantage.

J.T. Yes; we all go out and gather something "in hunting". Encountering the world is no detriment to us if we are with God -- it is really exercise that helps us spiritually. In the exercise you have gathered up something in regard to Christ, and in time you will have the opportunity of giving out what you have gathered, and then it will help the whole company; so that your very exercise contributes to the welfare of the whole assembly.

Rem. You said that what you get will not suffer by being kept; but will you not suffer if you have it and do not use it?

J.T. Well, the Lord is very gracious; if you miss one opportunity He will give you another -- the Lord is very patient; and your keeping it will tend to give you all the more exercise.

Rem. What is the thought of a "psalm"? (verse 26).

J.T. It is not giving out a hymn.

E.J.McB. I suppose a psalm is something you have learned of God in your ways here?

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J.T. Yes, the Psalms are expressions of experience. The book of Psalms is a wonderful book in that way; they rise sometimes to the height of Christ's experience.

Ques. Do you think this refers to the book of Psalms?

J.T. No, I do not think so, unless you found in the book what expresses your experience -- and that is doubtful. I think a psalm is the mode of expressing your experience, so that in that way it is your psalm.

E.J.McB. "Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs".

Ques. You do not get prayer and worship here -- why is that?

J.T. I think because here it is what is external. It is what comes before the eyes of the world that is set forth in this chapter. The apostle is not deprecating the Spirit -- you cannot set Him aside; but "the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets". In other words, a man is greater than his spirit. If he does not see it to be quite the right time to do something, he does not do it.

Rem. Then you would say it involves spiritual intelligence.

J.T. Yes. Then in verse 34 he gives a word to the sisters. If such are exercised, and it is well that they should be, it is commendable; but the assembly is not the place to bring into evidence your relationship with your husband. The relation between husband and wife belongs to the home; hence if you want to ask anything, it is to be done at home.

Rem. Will you say a word as to the expression "in the assemblies"?

J.T. I suppose it is the assembly as known in this world. It is not according to God's order that a woman should be speaking there.

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Rem. This chapter contemplates the saints in assembly, and the order and rule that should be seen there, does it not?

J.T. Yes, it supposes what goes on in the assembly when it is convened. It is the place for the exercise of gift.

Ques. Are the gifts here permanent?

J.T. They are permanent in the sense that they continue while the assembly is here.

Ques. Should not the gifts act when we are together?

J.T. Yes, I think so; if we recognize the Spirit. He is sure to act. But then we have to be sure that it is the Spirit, and the test for that is that the ministry recognizes Christ in every way. A gift is a most valuable asset to the assembly, and any company where there is gift has an asset which it ought to appreciate.

Rem. What we should seek is what is spiritual -- "God is a Spirit".

J.T. Yes. The early part of the chapter shows the working, so to speak, of the organism -- that the gifts are subordinate to the whole; but then they have their own distinctive place, and God has set them in the assembly; but in their operation they must not be independent; they are set in relation to the whole company.

Rem. There could be no clericalism if that was observed.

J.T. No. This chapter would be a remedy for clericalism. The point is that it is the "same" Spirit, so that there should not be any schism or division.

Rem. Would you say that the Lord's day morning is not the time for the exercise of gift?

J.T. Yes, I think the Lord's day meeting ought to be simply for Christ. The assembly is for Christ;

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the exercise of gift is more for us, though I would not deny that what we have in this chapter is a continuation of the first day of the week.

Rem. You mean, we might have a meeting like this in the middle of the week?

J.T. Yes. The week is a symbol of the whole period of christianity, and we begin afresh every Lord's day; so that all that follows in the week ought to have its beginning on the Lord's day. One would not like to say much about these things, but the more spiritual we are, I think, the more we should seek to get something fresh every week that would give character to the whole week.

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THE LORD'S SUPPER

Luke 22:7 - 23; 1 Corinthians 11:23 - 26

J.T. It has been suggested that we might consider the Lord's supper, and what accompanies and surrounds it.

The disciples here raise a question with the Lord as to where the passover should be celebrated, and He said to the two who were sent to make preparation, "Behold, when ye are entered into the city, there shall a man meet you, bearing a pitcher of water; follow him into the house where he entereth in. And ye shall say unto the goodman of the house. The Master saith unto thee. Where is the guest-chamber where I shall eat the passover with my disciples? And he shall show you a large upper room furnished: there make ready". There are spiritual thoughts connected with all these directions as to the place.

W.G.B. What is meant by the man with the pitcher of water?

J.T. Well, it suggests something spiritual. It is an earthen pitcher. I think it represents a vessel of the Spirit. It indicates a vessel in which the Spirit of God would be active. "We have this treasure in earthen vessels". It is a wonderful thing that the Spirit of God is indwelling these. The Spirit of God is active in such. But here a man bearing a pitcher is going somewhere. They were to follow him into the house where he was going. There was a distinct lead. It is a great matter in regard to the Supper to see where the man who has the pitcher of water is going.

W.G.B. The heart follows there.

J.T. Yes; indeed. There are many circles now, but does the man with the pitcher go in to each?

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W.G.B. The Lord goes where His authority is owned.

J.T. It would appear that the authority of the Lord was recognized there. His rights were recognized. The Lord simply asks where the guest-chamber is.

E.J.McB. You take the man with the earthen vessel to be a type of the active ministry of the Spirit, and the authority of Christ is seen in the fact that there is a demand made for this guest-chamber.

W.G.B. And the demand is acknowledged, too. That is a great help to christians who are perplexed as to the Supper.

J.T. The Supper cannot be dissociated from the assembly.

E.J.McB. Will you say a little on the recognition of the activities of the Spirit?

J.T. Well, it is a wonderful thing that there is here upon earth the ministry of the Spirit. There is a great deal of ministry in christendom; a great deal of activity in service. There is such at the present moment in this city. But what christians should look for is the ministry of the Spirit. There should be a sensitiveness as to whether the activity is spiritual activity. The greatest lack is want of ability to recognize what is of God.

E.J.McB. The effect of spiritual ministry is that the affections of the saints are refreshed.

J.T. Christ is sure to be the subject of spiritual ministry. The Spirit brings forward the things of Christ. One of the greatest thoughts in Scripture is that "God is a Spirit". The Lord said that to the woman of Samaria, and it was in order to set aside all material worship; to set aside in her mind all idea of materialism, and of ceremonialism, in worship. God is a Spirit, and hence every one is put to the test as to spiritual ministry, as to whether we have spiritual sensibilities.

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J.R.K. Is the authority of Christ the test as to the true ministry of the Spirit?

J.T. Yes, true ministry is sure to be connected with the authority of Christ. But the authority of Christ is set aside in christendom. If the authority of Christ is not recognized you cannot have the ministry of the Spirit. Where these two thoughts are allied you get the assembly, and hence you can have the ministry of the Spirit. It is the Lord's supper, and that involves His authority. The state of the Corinthians was such that they did not have the Supper, though they did come together.

E.J.McB. There is the Lord's authority on the one hand, and state on the other. At Corinth the state was such that though they had the outward form, yet they had not the Supper.

J.T. The apostle does not hesitate to say that the Corinthians had not the Supper. The question is asked sometimes. Have the religious systems around us got the Supper? Well, have they shown themselves subject to the Lord's authority? We are asked sometimes what have the systems got. Clearly they have not got the Supper, though they take the sacrament.

J.R.K. Would you say the "master of the house" represents the Lord?

J.T. Well, it represents rather the element that recognizes His authority.

W.G.B. What is the spiritual thought in the title of "Teacher"?

J.T. I suppose that in Judaism it carried some moral force with it. A teacher would have certain moral authority. What is taught carries weight with it. The Lord has a moral claim on us. We owe our Christianity to Christ. Every Christian will admit that. Every Christian ought to recognize that the Lord has some moral claim upon him. There could be no doubt that this "master of the house" knew

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something about the Lord, because the Lord refers to Himself as the Teacher in the message He sends, and at once he shows the upper room furnished.

E.J.McB. What is your idea as to the "large upper room furnished"?

J.T. It shows that the place we occupy is morally very large.

E.J.McB. There is room for all christians. All christians may have a place there.

J.T. One feels for young believers. Why are not young believers partaking of the Supper? It is for all!

E.J.McB. There is no reason why they should not.

J.T. If you love the Lord you ought to break bread. If there is a response to His affections there should be an opportunity for its outlet. There are a great many absentees. The Lord appeals to the affections of those who are absent. He thinks of them all. He loves each one individually. The Lord loved Martha, Mary, and Lazarus, and He loved them equally. The Supper is really a family affair. Family affairs are of great interest to the family, and the Supper is pre-eminently a family affair. The Lord knows every one in the family; as every man knows each member of his family by name. Mr. Darby gives a very touching note in regard to Luke 24. Speaking of the Lord taking the bread, and blessing it, and breaking and giving it to the two, he says. 'He took the house-father's place'.

J.R.K. Is it because we are defective in regard to the family that we are not at the Supper?

J.T. Where sin is not judged you cannot be at the Supper. But why should we not judge sin? why go on in sin? The Supper is there for you when you do judge it. The passover has reference to Christ as subject to the judgment of God -- made sin. "Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: therefore let us keep

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the feast". God provides the passover Lamb for you, but the unleavened bread is what you provide.

J.R.K. Unleavened bread was the only bread that was provided during the whole of the seven days.

J.T. Well, it is the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. One is hardly a christian at all if one is not sincere. It is not hard to understand what sincerity is, and what it is to be true. The great point is to see the spiritual thing. There is little use in talking about spiritual things unless the heart is right. Sincerity and truth are the outcome of the Spirit.

E.J.McB. Will you make a few remarks as to the Supper itself?

J.T. Apart from a spiritual state the Supper is not enjoyed.

Ques. Why is it called Supper?

J.T. Well, because ordinarily supper is the last meal of the day. The last meal of the day is a meal at which you are free. The responsibilities of the day are over. The Lord's day is the suitable time because we are free then. In coming together we should be entirely free in mind from secular affairs. A man can sit down with his family at supper-time free from the cares of the day. It would not be so at breakfast time, or dinner time, for then his responsibilities would be before him. The day would be before him. The idea of a day is responsibility. "Are there not twelve hours in the day". "Work ... while it is day; the night cometh when no man can work". The Supper is to bring the Lord Himself before us.

J.A.M. It is only as we are free in mind that we can take the Supper?

J.T. Yes, we must be free to take it rightly.

E.M. We are sometimes taken up with singing -- 'We praise Thee, glorious Lord, who died to set us free'.

J.T. Well, that is very suitable. There is no

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direct injunction with regard to the Supper. We have the Lord's request, and then the precedent established by the early christians. They came together on the first day of the week to break bread.

Christianity is much more a question of what is established by the Lord and His apostles, than by a system of injunctions. Hence the great need to be spiritual. Everything the Lord did had a spiritual thought behind it for us. So when the passover is ended He breaks the loaf, and He gives it to them. That is a spiritual idea. In the Supper there is that which you see, and that which you eat.

E.J.McB. I feel the importance of the suggestion of the last meal of the day; we are entitled to be perfectly free.

J.T. Yes, there is no labour in front of us, so that we can be free to sit down and contemplate Christ. The Lord set something before their eyes. There was the loaf -- what they could see. There are, I think, two thoughts in it. The Lord had no part in the eating of the Supper, but He did something -- He broke the loaf.

Ques. Does the breaking of the bread signify His death?

J.T. Well, it refers to what He did. I think it refers to the fact that His body was to be given in death, and that He gave it voluntarily. It is what He did. It is not what others did to Him. Eating is communion and appropriation. The fellowship is in the eating. There is that which is presented to us objectively in the Supper. There is one thing I cherish very deeply, and that is that the action was a family action, and the Lord was really within the house. As regards the passover, it was also connected with the family. The Supper was instituted after the passover. The Lord was the "house-father". The family were looking to Him. He took the house-father's place. In Luke 24, when He took that place He took bread

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and broke it, then He vanished, but they knew Him. They knew Him in the breaking of bread. There was something in the way He did it that made them recognize Him. It was the action that belonged to the head of the house.

J.R.K. The bread was not broken by those who invited Him in. He did it. He broke the bread, and that fact reminded them of what He had done before. As you say, He was taking the house-father's place. It is very beautiful indeed.

E.J.McB. What do you say in regard to the one who may break the bread at the present moment?

J.T. Well, I have seen one take the place of the head of a house in his absence. The eldest son might do that if his father were away; and he might do it in the way his father would do it. So that in the manner in which it was done the absent one would be called to mind. The absent one would be recalled by the act. It is thus, I think, with the person who now breaks the bread. As it is done the Lord Himself would be recalled to the minds and hearts of those of us who are sitting there. The absent one would be recalled by the act. Paul says, "I speak as to intelligent persons", which I think refers to spiritual formation. The breaking of the loaf suggests the Lord to you. I do not understand the word "do" apart from that fact. It recalls the occasion. It recalls the Person.

Rem. You think that the fact of "this do" reminds us of Him, and brings Him prominently before us in that way?

J.T. Yes. The Lord says He will come to us; but it is in a spiritual way. The difficulty is on the spiritual side, not the material side. Why should not the Lord move? Love will move. Did you ever know a stationary love? Love in the essence of it is active. The Lord is actually away. He was present when He instituted the Supper. The very

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thought in the Supper contemplates His absence. In the assembly the Lord comes to us in a spiritual way, so that He is personally with us.

E.J.McB. If He were not absent we would not break the bread.

J.R.K. Is it that the Lord moves?

J.T. Yes, the Lord moves.

S.L. In a spiritual way it is made a reality to us.

J.T. Why should not the Lord come to you, or to me? The movement is not on your side only, but on His also. The point I am seeking to make clear is that He moves. Surely the Lord can move if He pleases. How well His people know that He moves to them individually. They have proved that many a time.

E.J.McB. If He moves to the individual. He can move to the company.

J.T. He says, "I will come to you". Let us admit the truth. In verses 21 - 23 of John 14, the Lord makes His coming conditional -- conditional on keeping His commandments. "I will ... manifest myself to him". Then He speaks about His word. If we keep His words the Father and He will come. Is not that activity?

E.M. There is movement on His side.

W.K. Instead of leaving them in the desolate condition in which they were. He will come to them.

J.T. I have likened it to a mother saying to her children in the next room, who are calling for her, "I am coming". She cannot go to them just at that instant, but she assures their hearts and sets them in expectation. Our side is to come and partake of the Supper.

W.G.B. He brake it and gave to them. Would not that include the whole thing?

J.T. I think the Spirit distinguishes between the breaking of it, and the eating of it. The Lord did not eat of it. What He did reminds us of Him.

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Then there is the announcement of His death. "As often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do show the Lord's death till he come". It is announced to the world, but the world has not any idea of the remembrance of Christ. That is for our hearts. I think it should be a very precious thought to us that the Lord will come; that the Lord is active towards us. I cannot understand why He should be in any way restricted. He came out of heaven to speak to Paul, and He stood by Paul at Jerusalem.

Rem. I think this is bound to make His coming very much more real to us.

J.T. The great thing is to be in a suited state for it. That lies at the bottom of it all. The most simple soul may be conscious of the Lord's presence.

E.M. The effect is very marked on the soul that is conscious of the Lord's presence.

J.T. The Lord is with His people at all times, and He supports us specially in our difficulties and exercises. Matthew 18, I think, is a levitical meeting, because of the burdens of the testimony being taken there. It is a meeting of those who are exercised about the testimony. The Lord is there to support them. The assembly proper has no reference to what is levitical. It is a special season of privilege. That is the moment you would expect the Lord to come to the company. He comes now, indeed, as the heavenly Man. The Lord's affections are there, but in Matthew 18:20, He is supporting us in our exercises in the levitical circle. In the assembly proper He is coming to us as His "brethren". At the Supper you are free from the thought of responsibility. You are free for the moment. The Supper is the link between the wilderness and the land. When you come to the assembly you have Christ and the assembly. The Lord wants the assembly, He wants us to be free. He loves the thought of

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the assembly, because it affords to Him what He is seeking. We recall Him according to what He is. He was the Head in Luke 22. He took the initiative in everything. The disciples understood that. They were accustomed to that. He always did it. The Lord was the "house-father". Lordship has reference to official authority. The term Lord's supper is in contrast to the "table of demons". It is in contrast to what is outside, 1 Corinthians 10, has reference to what is outside. Chapter 11 has reference to what is inside. We come together in a scene out of which Christ has been rejected. How essential it is that we should have in our hearts the thought of the Lord's authority over us. Christians in the early days were all spiritual. I think John 14:18, supposes this, hence His "coming" applied to all. But His commandments and His word became a test. The assembly is a spiritual formation, but we come together down here as in flesh-and-blood condition. We come together to eat and drink; but we go on to what is spiritual.

W.G.B. To hear His voice and to see His face! There would be no distance if we knew that in our hearts.

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FELLOWSHIP AND THE LORD'S SUPPER

1 Corinthians 10:15 - 22; 1 Corinthians 11:23 - 26

J.T. The Lord seems to have called special attention to the Supper in recent years, and it would seem He has in view that the varied features of the assembly should be revived, so that in result the Spirit and the bride may say, "Come". My thought in suggesting these scriptures is that we might see that in the first, the Spirit emphasises communion, or fellowship; and in the second, the love that is suggested in the Supper, the love of Christ. The love of God is in it too -- that is, in the cup; but even in that the emphasis is on the fact that it is the blood of Christ. The new covenant is in it; but it is, as the Lord says, "in my blood".

Ques. Why the communion first?

J.T. To regulate the saints in their walk and conduct, and to save them from idolatry. If idolatry is admitted there is no hope of the Supper being truly reached. It can only be enjoyed as the communion is kept. The subject is introduced by this: "Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry".

Ques. When he says, "I speak as to wise men", would it be as those who have answered to that exhortation, who have fled from idolatry?

J.T. He addresses them as being wise or intelligent persons; the Lord's supper is not for a congregation merely; it is for an assembly, which suggests that it is composed of intelligent persons. With that in view wisdom would come in. The Supper is for the assembly.

J.R.K. Would you say that the term communion involves obligation?

J.T. It does; obligation to God, to Christ, and to the brethren.

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Ques. What is idolatry? How does it affect us?

J.T. Anything that disputes the rights of God in the soul, and God as revealed in the death of Christ. "The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ?" It is what God is in that blood, and anything that disputes that in your heart would be idolatry.

C.A.C. We see in Psalm 16 a blessed Man who was entirely apart from idolatry, and His delight was in the saints. Does this chapter 10 look at the saints as being on that line?

J.T. Yes, I think so.

J.H.L. What verses are you referring to in Psalm 16?

C.A.C. "Their sorrows shall be multiplied that hasten after another god: their drink offerings of blood will I not offer, nor take up their names into my lips". He was entirely apart from idolatry, and He said to the saints that are on the earth, and to the excellent, "In them is all my delight".

J.T. That greatly helps this passage. I was remarking the difference between a congregation and an assembly. "I speak as to intelligent persons". That suggests the assembly, or, I should say, those that compose it.

Ques. Does it involve that they are intelligently identified with the name of the Lord?

J.T. I think so, and that what is presented is taken up in a consistent way -- a consistency based on intelligence as to what is presented in the elements. "Judge ye what I say", is an appeal to the intelligence of the saints; the next chapter is rather an appeal to their affections.

P.L. Would you say that, regulated by the authority of divine love, we can give ourselves to the desires of that love? And that chapter 10 brings in more our regulation, and chapter 11 our availability for the desires of that love?

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J.T. In chapter 11 the heart is appealed to by the exact words and voice of the Lord Himself.

C.A.C. Is that why you connected the Supper with bridal affections? Is chapter 10 rather moral suitability?

J.T. I think so. In chapter 11 there is the presentation of what the Lord did, and His death appeals to the affections in a peculiar way; the answer to it is, I think, seen in the address to Philadelphia. The Lord promises to the overcomer there, "him will I make a pillar in the temple of my God ... and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God ... which comes down out of heaven, from my God, and my new name". It seems as if the Lord assumes that an overcomer in that period would value the things which were His, especially His God. The gospels are a testimony of what His God was to Him. You were remarking the beautiful reference in Psalm 16 to God and the saints; we see there the refusal of idolatry. The Lord assumes that the overcomer would value that. I think that as the gospels are studied, or rather, as we feed on them, we acquire an appreciation of what God was to Christ here. It is His God, the temple of His God, the name of the city of His God, and finally His own new name.

Ques. What is the new name?

J.T. The emphasis is on the word new; we have to learn what is new in the name by what we get in the gospels and the epistles.

Ques. Would you say that overcoming according to the verses you quote involves separation from the world and idolatry? Is it answering to the obligation imposed on us in connection with the Supper?

J.T. I think Philadelphia runs parallel with the revival of the Supper.

J.R.K. So that in the breaking of the bread and the drinking of the cup we commit ourselves to a

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course in which the name of the Lord is preserved in our minds.

J.T. Yes; what God is in Christ is presented to us in the cup, and then what Christ is as Man in entire devotedness to the will of God is presented in the loaf, and the unity of the saints is added to that.

J.R.K. And to answer to these obligations to God and to Christ and to the brethren is equivalent to overcoming.

C.A.C. The overcomer would take character from Christ, who is the Holy and the True.

J.T. I think the connection with Psalm 16 is very good indeed, because as you consider the path of Christ as presented in the gospel, you see His unswerving devotedness to God. He was holy and He was true; He was not only true to God, but He was true to the saints. He held them and carried them through; He said, "If ... ye seek me, let these go their way". I think that this threefold obligation is of all importance for us if we are to overcome, and it is not exactly here a question of commandments but of consistency. There is an obligation to God, to Christ, and to the saints. And then an additional thought comes in, namely, that if untrue we have the Lord to contend with. If we provoke Him to jealousy we have to contend with Him; we are at issue with Him.

Ques. Would not being true to your baptism preserve you from idolatry?

J.T. The question of consistency is more emphasised in connection with the Supper than with baptism, although consistency is in connection with each. It is in relation to the Supper that he says, "I speak as to intelligent persons: do ye judge what I say". And what does he say? "The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ?" You have part in that; now what about your outward relations? Are you trifling with idolatry?

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If I understand rightly, in taking the Supper we come under obligation in the breaking of the bread and the drinking of the cup. We have to be true to that. In John's epistle we are said to be "in him that is true, in his Son Jesus Christ". He was the true One.

C.A.C. If we cherish the thought of the One who was here for the will of God, it morally necessitates that we should be here for that will.

J.T. Jesus Christ is the true One who unswervingly carried out the will of God, and the loaf speaks of that; and hence the obligation is ever with one to be true to that. The gospels afford much food for the soul; one has to feed on Christ as the One who carried out the will of God.

Ques. Would it involve consistency with His death?

J.T. Yes; it is really consistency with Christ, including His death, because it is a question of what He was here. These things would serve to bring out the features of Christ in a formative way in the saints, so that there might be conformity to Christ. The book of Proverbs brings in the woman of worth, one who can be confided in when the husband is away. The question comes to me, Can I be trusted in the absence of the Lord, or we might say, in the absence of the brethren? "The heart of her husband doth safely trust in her".

When we come to chapter 11 we have what is collective. Chapter 10 is the bearing of the Supper on the individual, as to whether I am true; and one can understand how the Lord watches the saints to see the development of this element of holiness and truthfulness. In chapter 10 I am obligated in regard of all others as to my movements; it is a question of my considering for them so as not to compromise them by my actions, or relations. But when we come to chapter 11 it is the collective side; we sit down

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together, and in doing so one always desires to hold oneself in relation to the whole assembly.

C.A.C. You mean that your heart cherishes the thought of the whole company.

J.T. That is what I was thinking, the Lord has nothing less before Him than that.

Ques. Does the word, "This is my body, which is for you", embrace the whole assembly?

J.T. That includes every one of the saints, and you want to include them all too. I have been greatly interested of late in the thought of the tribes. I think there is a danger of discrediting the Old Testament, but it is written for us. And the way the tribes are spoken of helps us in regard of what is in the mind of the Lord about the assembly. "This is my body, which is given for you", necessarily includes all the saints, and so as we sit down together we are in assembly relations; we think of the tribes. Moses "was king in Jeshurun, when the heads of the people and the tribes of Israel were gathered together". Deuteronomy 33:5. They are seen there typically, so to say, in assembly order, and in that order Christ is enthroned in their affections. And that is what the Supper is intended to effect.

In sitting down to the Supper we are in assembly relations; it is an assembly function; and in holding ourselves in that relation we are holding ourselves for Christ; we are for Christ as He has been for us. I was speaking yesterday of Jacob's appeal in Genesis 49:1, 2. "And Jacob called unto his sons, and said. Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days. Gather yourselves together, and hear, ye sons of Jacob; and hearken unto Israel your father". In verse 2 the word is changed; it is really "assemble yourselves". It may seem a small difference, but the word is changed. We come together, that is our act; but as together we are in the light of the assembly, and in

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the assembly we are to hear what the Lord says, and the Supper has a voice.

J.R.K. Would you say that if we are duly affected by the Lord's love we cannot leave the saints out of our affections?

J.T. You cannot; you want all the tribes. "The tribes of Israel were gathered together". Now the point is to hear what the Lord has to say. So the scripture read in 1 Corinthians 11 begins with the saints in assembly. It is not a congregation where some human leader speaks, but the assembly in which Christ speaks; He appeals to us. And every one is addressed as an intelligent person. It is in assembly the Lord would open His thoughts and heart to us.

J.H.L. How far can that be taken up today?

J.T. Well, if you hold yourself in the light of the whole assembly the Lord speaks to you; you get communications and manifestations as at the beginning. Present conditions of course necessarily modify this in a certain way. But the assembly remains here, the object of Christ's affections; and the Supper being revived, the Lord would have us, as partaking of it, to hold ourselves in assembly relations, and to clothe ourselves with assembly thoughts.

C.A.C. You have really found the assembly according to what it is in the heart of Christ; you have found it there.

J.T. I was going to say in regard to the high priest's breastplate, and the names according to the tribes being in it, that if we get near to the Lord we find that the whole assembly is in His heart. The Lord says, "At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you". John 14:20. The Lord has great pleasure in christians, however few, holding themselves for Christ in relation to the assembly. While no company, however large, can

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say that they are it, saints can hold themselves in that relation. You save yourself from any pretension to be it by holding yourself to be in that relation.

Rem. It must be a great joy to the Lord that the saints should hold themselves thus.

J.T. I know it is a great joy to His heart, because it brings the features of the assembly before Him. He addresses Philadelphia as if He were speaking to the assembly: "I have loved thee ... I also will keep thee". He had nothing less than the whole assembly in His mind in speaking thus. John 14 emphasises the individual, but that individual would think of the assembly.

J.R.K. Would you not say that there would be enlargement of heart in that?

J.T. I think the Lord will bring about enlargement of affection, that we may have all the saints in our hearts.

C.A.C. And love to all the saints is really the basis for Colossian and Ephesian truth. Where there was love to all the saints there was a condition to which the truth could be opened out.

J.T. I think if we hold to that, if we cling to the brethren, the Lord will grant them to us; if we cling to them, they will not turn away from us.

J.R.K. It is interesting that the name is Philadelphia, which means brotherly love.

J.T. I believe there is a meaning in that.

C.A.C. You mentioned earlier in the meeting the emphasis which the Lord put on the words, "My God", "the city of my God", etc. Had you in mind that the Supper has in view the setting of the saints in those blessed relations with God that are so precious to the heart of Christ?

J.T. I think that is very beautiful. "My God and your God".

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C.A.C. Is the cup really leading on to that?

J.T. I think it belongs in what God is to us.

C.A.C. That is what I meant.

J.T. Yes; because the life was in it. God from the outset claimed the blood. It had in view the life of Jesus, for that was the only life worth claiming. God claimed it, but He gave it up for us; it was poured out for us. Hence we see the love of God in the cup. I greatly value the reference to Psalm 16 -- what God was to Him -- His God.

J.H.L. Are you thinking of the expression, "I have set the Lord always before me"?

J.T. Yes, and there are one or two other beautiful expressions. "The Lord is the portion of mine inheritance and of my cup: thou maintainest my lot. The lines are fallen unto me in pleasant places; yea, I have a goodly heritage. I will bless the Lord, who hath given me counsel: my reins also instruct me in the night seasons. I have set the Lord always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved. Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope. For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore". That was what God was to Him; He was His God. It is in the temple of that God that the overcomer is to be made a pillar.

C.A.C. It is really the joy of the Lord to set His saints in the blessedness of knowing His God.

J.T. Yes; He can say that the saints that are in the earth, and the excellent, are all His delight. He views them as set in relation to His God. And should not that find an answer in us as regards the saints? And the Supper is the centre of all this; all these things centre there.

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C.A.C. I do not think there is anything more precious, or that more affects my heart, than to see how all christianity centres in the Supper.

J.T. With regard to the tribes of Deuteronomy 33. Christ is seen typically as supreme in their affections. Then in Psalm 122 the tribes are seen going up to Jerusalem. "Jerusalem is builded as a city that is compact together: whither the tribes go up, the tribes of the Lord, unto the testimony of Israel (or Israel's custom, New Translation, note), to give thanks unto the name of the Lord". It was Israel's custom that the tribes should go up. The Lord is the originator of every christian custom, and it is well to note these customs. The Supper is a custom, but something else goes along with the Supper -- that is, the going up of the tribes. That is, I think, suggestive of what follows the Supper. The Lord inaugurated a custom when they sang a hymn, and then went to the mount of Olives. That would be a custom which the spiritual would ever afterwards remember and take note of.

Ques. Does going to the mount of Olives indicate a change after the Supper?

J.T. It does; I think it has reference to heaven. Bethany is an earthly connection, but the mount of Olives is a heavenly connection.

Ques. Do you think a hymn should always follow the Supper?

J.T. In a general way; it is a time for enjoying Christ's love for His own; this would tend to liberty for what is to follow. A hymn is the outcome of what you have enjoyed; it would be praise to the Person.

Rem. A very precious custom that.

J.T. I think it is; I hope we shall be found following it.

P.L. In Psalm 15 we have the thought of ascending, have we not? Would you say Psalm 16 shows

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the features of those who could ascend, and now in Psalm 122 we find them ascending together?

J.T. Yes. In John 8 the Lord went to the mount of Olives alone when the others went to their own homes. That is why I think it is linked with heaven; it is where He found His retreat. But afterward "He went according to his custom to the mount of Olives, and the disciples also followed him". Luke 22:39 (New Trans.).

In Psalm 122 there is much intelligence, much recognition of what is in Jerusalem. "Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee. Peace be within thy walls, and prosperity within thy palaces. For my brethren and companions' sakes, I will now say, Peace be within thee. Because of the house of the Lord our God I will seek thy good". I think that is something like the language of a Philadelphian overcomer. The tribes of Jehovah would represent the assembly in its order before God: a company that ascends, and gives thanks to His name.

Rem. I suppose the character of what follows the Supper should help the saints to go up.

J.T. I think one who gives the lead in a spiritual way greatly helps. It does not say who gave out the hymn, but I have no doubt the Lord did.

Rem. So the Supper puts us together in view of going up.

J.T. I think so. As assembled together we have the custom of going up.

C.A.C. You would not begin the meeting by addressing the Father? I have observed that if a meeting has started by addressing the Father it descends instead of going up.

J.T. No. It is important to have intelligence in what one does; one should act according to the light that governs the position. There should be a gradual ascent. At the beginning we assemble ourselves, but as together there is something additional; we are set

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in such relation to one another as to be assembled from the divine side. We are together in assembly then. In coming together we hold ourselves in that relation, yet there is an influence that sets us in the assembly from the divine side, and there Christ is supreme; He is King in Jeshurun. A hymn to the Lord is very becoming then; we recognize Him as Lord coming amongst us in view of our being in the good of His headship.

J.R.K. When in the good of that, would He lead on to the Father?

J.T. As King in Jeshurun He is supreme in our affections, but soon becomes Head with us. Then it is a question of letting Him have His way, and the movement upward would be through Him to the Father.

Ques. Would the title "Lord Jesus" convey the same thought as King in Jeshurun?

J.T. It would. It is an affectionate reference to His place of authority. No one can say Lord Jesus except by the Spirit. "The Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed" is an affectionate reference to Him.

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THE GAIN OF CHRIST'S ABSENCE

John 14

J.T. This chapter is in view of testimony during the Lord's absence; and the Lord's words to His disciples in chapters 13 and 14 were calculated to impress upon them His great interest in them. Chapter 13 shows us how we are to act towards one another. The Lord indicates the spirit in which we are to act one towards another; and as that spirit is acquired among the saints you have an element of sustenance. There are various elements of sustenance which these chapters indicate, and I think one element is that there is to be mutual affection. As the spirit of Christ is apprehended and acted upon there is an element of sustenance, which is of great value during His absence.

E.J.McB. It is intended to have a great effect upon our hearts.

J.T. We all know that in natural things a family spirit has great weight with us. We know how families are inter-dependent. It is a very beautiful thing to see family affection and family interest, and we know how that where things are right naturally, the spirit of affection is an element of mutual sustenance. I think that is the point in chapter 13. Then, I think the first half of chapter 14 is objective; that is -- the gain of having Christ as a Man in heaven. He knows exactly what we are going through upon earth, and He is to be the object of our faith in heaven. He says -- "Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me". In spite of all outward failing and breakdown, the Lord's provision for His own remains -- Himself as an object of faith -- the Son, and the place He is preparing for us in the Father's house -- the saints' eternal home. Then the second half of the

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chapter would be the provisional arrangement, or order of things, which the Lord has instituted here whilst He is away, it is His provision in view of His absence. The Spirit's presence down here for ever. Then the unconditional promise -- "I will not leave you orphans, I am coming to you". Then the conditional promise to those who keep His commandments and His words when declension has set in. Where these conditions exist the Father and the Son find out that soul. Christ manifests Himself to him and divine Persons make their abode there. These divine manifestations are realized in the power of the Spirit.

E.J.McB. You get that side of things with the thought of Comforter.

J.T. Yes, the presence of the Comforter here, and the things which depend upon it; divine manifestations, etc. In the Old Testament divine manifestations and activities were largely in connection with angelic agency, as, for instance, in the case of Abraham. But now all is changed. Angels are not used in that way. There are angels sent forth to "minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation", as Hebrews 1 shows; but all direct communications now are dependent upon the Spirit. So that the gain of the Spirit is enlarged upon in the second half of chapter 14.

E.J.McB. Would the gain of the Spirit in the second half of the chapter lead us into the objective side of things in the first half?

J.T. Yes, I think they run together; as we were saying at the outset, the point in view is the testimony. They were to be interested in His things whilst He was away, and there would be serious difficulties to encounter. But He encourages their hearts by saying, "Let not your heart be troubled". He shows really that His going away would be in their favour, and that they would be infinitely

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superior to their surroundings. So that these are assembly chapters. They have reference to our position here ecclesiastically; and the Lord shows what resources we can count upon. If He were to continue here personally all these considerations would not be needed. But He is not to be here, because chapter 13 begins with the thought that He is to depart out of the world to the Father.

Ques. What do you mean by ecclesiastical position?

J.T. I mean "assembly" position; it is a question of persons left here together who love Christ, who have the Spirit, and who are to look after His interests while He is away. If there is a head of a family, every right-minded member of that family would do all that is possible to maintain what is the mind of the head. The Lord assumes that here, that each one would be interested, and He shows what would be available to such. If your heart is interested it is an immense thing to see the things that are available here on your behalf.

Rem. So that the presence of the Spirit is of the greatest moment.

J.T. One great essential feature in those who form the assembly is mutual affection. The Lord says, "That ye love one another, as I have loved you". So that we have to consider the kind of love the Lord manifested to His own -- that is the kind of love we are to express to each other. The company Christ left here manifested a most touching character. The only authority they had to go by when He left them was the Scriptures; and the Spirit shows in Acts l that they were engaged with the Scriptures, and in prayer. They were together, and united; so that Acts 1 shows that the company to which the Spirit came was morally suited to receive Him.

Rem. You would say God had prepared a vessel for the reception of the Spirit?

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J.T. Yes; I think so. And what the assembly began with is what is to continue. You cannot associate the Spirit with anything that does not recognize the authority of the Lord; because Christ here connects their love and the keeping of His commandments with the gift of the Spirit.

Ques. Why is He called the Spirit of truth here?

J.T. Well, I suppose it is in contrast to the spirit that is in the world. It is an immense thing to have the Spirit of truth, because if He is allowed His place everything is recognized in its true relation. Everything is adjusted by the Spirit of truth. What came out in the assembly was that every divine institution had its place and recognized value; so that God's world took form in that way. Things in the world are not true. The idea of truth, I think, is set forth in the principle that builders recognize. If buildings are not put up on that principle they collapse.

E.J.McB. Is not Christ, in that way, the full expression of truth?

J.T. Yes, in Christ's ministry everything was adjusted; everything had its true place according to God. You will find that in the discourses of the Lord everything was adjusted. So that now the Spirit has come into the assembly to have that maintained livingly here. Thus in his first epistle John tells us the Spirit is the truth. The idea of truth is, that everything is adjusted according to God's mind. Everything in the moral system is out of joint, but when Christ appeared, in so far as His ministry went everything was set in order. So the coming in of the Spirit is for the establishing of the principle of God's world. Every divine institution has its relative place, and is recognized according to its true value. Take marriage, for instance: marriage is a divine institution. In Christ it has its proper place; Moses allowed divorce, but that was on account of their

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state. It is not really according to the truth to allow divorce. Hence Christ did not admit of it. He says, "From the beginning it was not so". So that the further the world gets away from God, the greater disregard it has for divine institutions. The presence of the Holy Spirit is to maintain everything in its true relation.

Ques. In what way would you connect the ministry of Paul with what you are speaking of now?

J.T. Well, the ministry of Paul really comes in later. Its place is in chapter 16 of John. There the Spirit would take of the Lord's things and would show them to them; but in chapter 14 He is to remind them of all that Christ taught. The conditions to which the Spirit came afford one of the most interesting considerations. I believe saints are too loose in regard to the Spirit. You cannot connect the Spirit with what is morally unsuitable to God.

Rem. "Whom the world cannot receive".

J.T. Quite so. The Spirit is far more jealous as to what is due to God that we are liable to think. Take all the activity in the evangelical world, as it is called; there is so much that you cannot connect the Spirit with, for it is not true according to God.

Rem. The Spirit is called the Comforter.

J.T. The point is "another Comforter", that is, the Lord's place would be taken up by another. If we had been acquainted with the Lord as the disciples were, we would have an appreciation of this. Many of us do not miss the Lord at all. We do not feel that there is a great blank in the world; but you miss your father and mother when they are removed, because there is a link of affection there. If we loved the Lord more we would miss Him.

Rem. We are tested in that way.

J.T. Yes, we are.

Rem. Was the coming of the Comforter provisional?

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J.T. Yes; only He remains with us for ever. He takes the place of Christ whilst He is away: but whilst Christ is present the Spirit recedes. That is not derogatory to the Spirit, because the Spirit always makes Christ prominent. He always remains with us, but there are circumstances in which the Spirit of God is prominent, as, for instance, in the beginning of Acts. Peter's explanation was that "This is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel". He says that these men are not filled with new wine; they were filled with the Spirit. There are conditions in which the Spirit is prominent, and there are conditions in which Christ is prominent. When the Lord takes His place in the assembly. He is supreme. Of course, the Spirit is always the power, whether it be of ministry, or affection, or praise, or worship; He is always the subjective power. But when the Lord takes His place in our midst it is evident that He must be supreme. But this chapter contemplates the Spirit here and Christ absent.

Ques. What is the difference between the presence of the Spirit, and the presence of the Lord?

J.T. Well, the Spirit never presents Himself as an object of worship. The Spirit was to abide -- "He may abide with you for ever". The Spirit never leaves us. But the Lord does not say that of Himself.

Rem. The Spirit will never leave the assembly.

J.T. No. He is here now instead of Christ. But the Lord comes for the assembly. The Spirit's office is to take care of the assembly whilst Christ is absent. But the Lord does not leave it to the Spirit to take us home -- He comes Himself.

Ques. What is the force of the scripture where it is said the Spirit descended like a dove and abode upon Him?

J.T. It showed that God had now a permanent resting place in Christ; it showed also that Christ was a divine Person. I think the allusion is to Noah's

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dove; she could find no rest for the sole of her foot. Genesis 8:9. The Spirit, you may say, found no resting place in the Old Testament; until Christ appeared He found no abiding place.

E.J.McB. Then, as you were saying, there was a Person who was morally suited to the Spirit.

J.T. Yes.

Ques. What is the difference between God being "amongst you" in 1 Corinthians 14, and the Spirit being there?

J.T. That is God; "God is in you of a truth". God is always the supreme object of worship and veneration. "One body and one Spirit ... one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all"; and the wonderful fact was that He was in the christian company.

Rem. You spoke of the Spirit as being the agency by which everything is realized. Do you mind saying a word more upon that?

J.T. I remarked what I think is evident, that in the Old Testament God acted generally through the agency of angels -- the Spirit was there, but divine manifestations, etc., were by angelic agency. But it is not so now. He comes now in a spiritual way. The presence of the Holy Spirit here involves that things are made to depend upon Him. One can readily see that in the Old Testament there were very great limitations; but there are no limitations now.

Ques. When the Lord comes now, is it that He comes Himself?

J.T. Yes, He comes Himself. We must always maintain that the Spirit is not Christ. There is Christ personally, and the Spirit personally. How the Lord may come is another matter; that is left very largely for the soul to discover. But He comes in a spiritual way; and the thought of His coming is introduced after the Spirit's coming is announced.

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E.J.McB. You said that when Christ is prominent the Spirit recedes. I think that is very important.

J.T. Yes, of course when you get a man speaking in the power of the Spirit it is Christ in a sense; but the Spirit is prominent; that is 1 Corinthians 12; it is a question of the activities of the Spirit.

Rem. The Lord is careful to show, in John 20, that it is He Himself, not a spirit, who came to them.

J.T. Yes; and the fact that the doors were shut shows that He is independent of what is material. The Lord comes in a spiritual way; but He comes.

Rem. Would you connect Colossians with that? It has often been noticed that the Spirit is not mentioned there.

J.T. The point, I think, in the epistle to the Colossians is to meet the declension, and the apostle insists upon Christ -- "As therefore ye have received the Christ, Jesus the Lord, walk in him". He brings forward Christ in Colossians, and I think the point was to establish Him firmly in the affections of the saints. God had wonderfully favoured them -- because really the gentile is in view there -- so he says, "Christ in you the hope of glory". It was a wonderful thing for a gentile company to know that Christ was there amongst them.

Ques. Would you distinguish that from what we were speaking of in John 14?

J.T. In Colossians it is not a question of the assembly convened; it is a question of the state of the saints. As the Lord says, "ye in me, and I in you". We are in His affections, and He is in ours. But this is different from His coming to us, see also 2 Corinthians 13:5.

Rem. Is not John 14 a question of state?

J.T. In John 14 the company is in view. The Spirit came to them collectively, we know. They were gathered around the Lord when He was speaking to them here. I think the coming promised in

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verse 18 was enjoyed collectively. Coming to a faithful individual is spoken of afterwards.

Rem. You say there are times when Christ is prominent, and there are other times when the Spirit is prominent.

J.T. Yes; I think at a meeting like this it is the activity of the Spirit, if there is anything at all. His function is to instruct, and so forth. All is under Christ, we know, but the point emphasised here is "another Comforter"; that is, One who took the Lord's place. If you take a meeting for prayer: there it is a question of the exercises of the saints engaged levitically; they are bearing burdens. But the idea of the assembly is that it is free for Christ. But in prayer we are thinking of care, and of needs that exist. We come together for that purpose; hence it is not properly an assembly meeting, because the levitical idea is that people are bearing burdens. Then the Scriptures contemplate other meetings. Jude speaks of "love feasts", for instance. The apostle says, "not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together"; but there is one special occasion that the Scriptures indicate. There is no injunction in regard to the Lord's day. It is not enjoined; therefore one would not enjoin it on the world. It is no credit to us that the world keeps the Lord's day: the Lord's day was never intended for it. It was a spiritual idea that faith laid hold of, and Acts shows that the saints in the early days recognized it in that way. They came together on that day. The Lord set them the example as in every case. He came to the company on two successive Lord's days, and the saints, I think, were quick to discern what He had done; and thus they would come together. If the Lord was pleased to come into their midst on two successive Lord's days, I would say it was well worth while to come together on that day. Besides, He rose from the grave on that day.

Rem. It was the resurrection day.

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J.T. Yes. It was a day of immense importance to Him. He honoured it in that way. Many thoughts enter into the first day of the week. The seventh day has reference to the creation, but the first day of the week refers to christianity: there is no end to it. It refers to what is spiritual, and so entirely new.

Rem. Would you not say that the Lord counted on their affections, and they would recognize the way He came in?

J.T. The testimony of the Scriptures is, that they were together before He came in. It may have been for a brief moment, but at any rate the moment was there. As to the second visit it says, "His disciples were again within, and Thomas with them. Jesus comes, the doors being shut".

Ques. Would you say that the Spirit gathers us together?

J.T. Yes, I would, but, as loving one another, we come together.

Ques. And when we are gathered together in that way by the Spirit, does the Lord come in?

J.T. I think the Lord would come to us as we are prepared for it.

E.J.McB. Do you think that one of the main features with regard to the Lord's coming is that He comes to those who miss Him?

J.T. Yes. He comes to those who love Him, and so feel that He is away.

E.J.McB. You mean He comes to affection.

J.T. I think if you really want the Lord He will answer to affection. But we must never put the Lord in the position of acting automatically. There are many who seem to think that the Lord must act, but you can never regard the Lord in that position, because He is sovereign, and He always reserves His sovereign rights. Even if He is to come, you can hardly say that He must come, though the conditions are there. He will not disappoint affection; but I put in the

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provision because many think that because we are together the Lord is there. That will not do at all. You are making the Lord act automatically, and disregardful of the state of the meeting, if you say that.

Ques. Is it to the company He comes?

J.T. This chapter shows that He comes to the individual. Whatever extremities we may be reduced to, the Lord will not forsake us. If there is only one left. He will come to him; and that ought to be a great stay to our hearts now.

Rem. One would see in this chapter the history of the assembly. First of all He comes to the company without a provision; then He comes to the individual who loves Him and keeps His commandments.

J.T. Because the Lord there assumes that the early assembly affections were there. He assumes that they all loved Him, which they did, hence there is no condition stated in verse 18.

Rem. You said a moment ago that the Lord comes to the individual; that is not excluding the fact that He comes to the assembly.

J.T. The point here is that the Lord makes the provision for us no matter to what extremity we are reduced. To any one keeping His word. He and the Father would come. So that your heart is sustained; no matter how extreme the day, the Lord promises you a visitation. If He comes to one, He can come to two. I do not know that we can take any other ground than that now, that is, that the Lord will come to the individual.

Rem. There might be a hundred gathered, and five out of the hundred realize His presence.

J.T. Yes.

E.J.McB. In admitting that He comes to the individual, I think it covers the whole point: because if you admit one individual, you can multiply that to any number.

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Ques. Is it a question of conditions when the Lord comes?

J.T. Yes. That was why I said the chapter was prophetic; the Lord was casting His eye down upon the whole history of the assembly, and what He shows is that the individual who loves Him and keeps His words, is not deprived of the greatest privileges that the assembly primarily enjoyed.

Ques. What is the difference between Matthew 18 and this?

J.T. Matthew 18 is levitical. Matthew contemplates administration down here in the assembly, and the Lord indicates that even if they were reduced to two or three. He would be with them to support them. But here He is thinking of you, what you need for your affections -- not support exactly, but what your heart requires. If you love Him you want to see Him. I quite admit that the Levites did not go inside, even to the first holy place; because prayer really is at the golden altar, not at the brazen altar, therefore you are a priest in prayer. Matthew 18 contemplates us gathered in relation to the Lord's interests, and the promise contained in it always holds good.

E.J.McB. Do you not get the fact that He comes to the individual beautifully portrayed in John, at Patmos?

J.T. Yes; it was to give revelations, however. But here the affections are fully met. Now, if a person comes to live with you, it is not a question of supporting you, but of enjoying your affections. One might say that because things are so reduced we are deprived of the earliest privileges of the assembly. But the Lord shows that we are not. I think that is an immense thing.

E.J.McB. If one were in the enjoyment of this individually, would it not be a great stimulant to others-that many more might enjoy it?

J.T. Yes, I think so. We would seek to get others

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into it. The idea very much has been to go into the world and convert people. But we want to get souls into the assembly. Present-day evangelisation means that if a soul is converted he is told to go back to where he came from. That is what they are told. There is not a bit of heart in that. That does not bring the soul to Christ. It is not the spirit of Christ, because the spirit of Christ is that He went to the sheep, and laid it on His shoulders, and brought it home. That is the spirit of the evangelist. I think it is very beautiful to go through Luke and see the spirit of the true evangelist. He put the sheep on His shoulders, and brought it home.

Ques. Would not that be the primary thought of the evangelist?

J.T. Yes, I think so.

Rem. The Father was not satisfied until He had the prodigal home.

J.T. I do not think the present evangelical activity would be supported a single hour were it not that it builds up the systems of men. Christendom is going to pieces, and the leaders want their systems maintained; and they are very glad to have them maintained in that way. But if it be a question of taking souls to Him, the systems collapse; and so the true evangelists get no support from them. If one went into one of the churches, and preached separation, and any left, it would to that extent weaken the system.

Ques. Will you say a word on the twentieth verse? "At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you".

J.T. The Lord, I think, refers to the present moment, the Spirit's day, when we are conscious of these things, "that I am in my Father" -- that is, that He is in His affections; "and ye in me" -- I take that to mean that we are in His affections. All that is now known by the Spirit. The fact is that the disciples had a great deal more than they knew about

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when Christ was here. He says so in this chapter -- verse 9; but the presence of the Spirit makes it all evident to us.

Ques. What about verse 19? "Because I live, ye shall live also".

J.T. Is it not a very precious thought that the Lord makes our life to depend upon His life? If He lives, we live. As David said to Abiathar, "he that seeketh my life seeketh thy life".

Ques. Does the Lord give us credit for what we are not really up to?

J.T. Yes He does indeed; it is the greatest comfort I know that the Lord views our actions from His point of view. He says, "against the day of my burying hath she kept this". I do not know that Mary understood it, but the Lord understood it; and she understood it afterwards.

Ques. What is the difference between verse 15, "If ye love me, keep my commandments", and verse 23, "If a man love me, he will keep my words ... and we will come ... and make our abode with him?"

J.T. I think the latter is to encourage the individual.

Rem. I was thinking of what the Lord says, "I will not leave you comfortless, I will come to you". He did not say He was coming to abide.

J.T. I think verse 23, as I said, is to encourage the individual. It is even more than that which the company had. The Father and the Son would come. It is an immense encouragement. It is not that He comes to such in circumstances that are strictly individual; He comes to us to where we are ecclesiastically. The whole point is, where are we in our souls in regard to the testimony? Things have got very small, and very weak; but the Lord is not hindered by that. So that John is exiled on account

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of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus; but the Lord came to him there.

E.J.McB. The Lord contemplates an individual who wants to be true to Him; but things are so low down that there may be only one individual.

J.T. Yes, I think that is exactly it. I take "our abode" to be the Lord's way of emphasizing what the individual might reckon upon. It is even more than is spoken of in verse 18.

Ques. Is that saying that in coming to the company He stays?

J.T. No; the Lord does not say that They would make Their abode eternally; He simply says that the one who keeps His words would enjoy such a thing as that. The point is that he should enjoy such a thing as the Father and the Son abiding with him. We read elsewhere -- "They abode with him that day". John 1:39.

E.J.McB. It is referred to in verse 25 -- "these things, I have said ... abiding with you"; clearly it did not mean He was going to stay.

J.T. Yes, exactly. I think the point in it is to show that the individual is wonderfully taken care of; his privilege is even greater than in verse 18.

E.J.McB. As things break down on our side, there is an increase on the divine side.

J.T. Yes, and all for the encouragement of the individual. We have little idea of the way the Father and the Son take account of the present circumstances; and the remarkable thing is that they are similar to the circumstances the Lord found Himself in when here.

Ques. Would you confine the thought of the Lord's coming to the Lord's day morning meeting?

J.T. I think we are warranted in connecting the assembly in its proper character with the first day of the week. I believe that is correct, if you examine the allusions to the first day of the week in the Scriptures.

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The thought in the assembly is that we should be free. In the prayer meeting you are engaged with what is levitical. In a meeting like this it is more a question of instruction and mutual edification. It would not do if the Lord were present to be speaking to one another as now. He would do everything. If a man of gift were present he would not use it if the Lord were there.

E.J.McB. I think we would all feel if the Lord came into the room now, and there were any questions to ask, we should question Him.

J.T. Yes, now it is the Spirit.

Rem. We really touch the assembly in the Supper.

J.T. Well, that is so little understood, and I am not saying that I am different from others in that, but the assembly in its spiritual character is so little known consciously, that it is little understood.

E.J.McB. I think you will agree with the thought that there is nothing to surpass being where Christ is in supremacy.

J.T. It is ecstasy.

Ques. Is that possible?

J.T. I think the allusions to ecstasy in the Scriptures show that the early christians knew what it was. It was not unknown. The assembly is for Christ and the great thing is to get free; and to be so free that you are for Christ. It is well to recognize that He is for you; but what about His heart? It is not good for a man to be alone, and God's thought was that Christ should have the assembly. Sarah dies, and Rebecca is brought into Sarah's tent, and we are brought now into Israel's place in the sense that we are to be for the comfort of Christ.

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THE NEW ORDER OF THINGS

John 20

J.T. While John 14 shows the Lord's affection and care for His own, chapter 20 is the inauguration of the new order of things; and therefore stands on a much wider platform than chapters 13 and 14. Chapter 20 stands by itself, and what occurs in it being the inauguration of the assembly, is necessarily once for all. There could be no other inauguration.

Ques. Is the new order of things confined to the assembly?

J.T. I think in its highest character it is; but the new order of things, while necessarily including what God will bring in in the future, proceeds from heaven. It is not only what is established in resurrection. The new order of things comes from heaven. So that in principle, in coming into the company here, the Lord came from heaven. I do not say He did so literally, but He came to them following upon His message that He was ascending to the Father.

E.J.McB. That is, it was in the light of His ascension that He came in.

J.T. Yes. The point is as to the moral place which the ascension holds. It is not only here that He is risen, but, "I ascend to my Father and your Father". In chapter 14 He is going to the Father, which is another thought.

Ques. What is the difference?

J.T. Well, the word "ascend" shows that the Father is in heaven. In going to the Father the Person to whom He was going is more in view, but in chapter 20 the place where the Father is is the prominent thought, and He ascends there; and I think the truth of His own Person is involved in that -- that is, He has title to ascend. In the light of

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what He was, He could ascend. He had title to do so.

Rem. In chapter 17 He lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said, "Father, ... glorify thy Son".

J.T. I think that is rather what He is as Man. He had carried out God's will here, so He could say, "I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do". It was due to Him that the Father should glorify Him, and I think His prayer is based upon that. It was a demand for what was morally right. But, then, He is a divine Person, and He has title to ascend in virtue of what He is.

E.J.McB. Yes; the idea in chapter 20 is not that He asked to be taken up, but that He ascends up.

J.T. And He goes up to His Father, and our Father; it is a very precious thought. He says, "I ascend to my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God". It shows what a place the assembly has.

E.J.McB. Is there anything to be learned from what is seen in Mary, prior to this? Would you say it is the "orphan" side of things?

J.T. Quite so. I think Mary represents the affections, the subjective side, in the disciples.

Ques. Then, previous to this, was not resurrection power inherent in Him as a divine Person?

J.T. Yes. John, I think, always presents that side. He shows, for example, in chapter 19, verse 30, that the Lord dismissed His spirit; His death in that way was an act of divine power. Chapters 17 and 18 show that He is in supreme command. In chapter 18 He faces His enemies, and they go backwards and fall to the ground; and He says: "If therefore ye seek me, let these go their way". That is so touching. There was the shepherd's spirit and the shepherd's heart -- He was thinking only of the sheep; and so He delivers Himself up. Then they

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put Him on the cross, and He looks after His mother there; and later, He dismisses His spirit. So that all through John's gospel a divine Person is before us.

E.J.McB. "I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again".

J.T. That is how John so helps us. He shows us, in view of the decline and ruin, that we have to do with a divine Person, so that there can be no defeat. I think that is the great value of John's writings. They apply so especially to our own day.

Ques. Is not the resurrection the crowning "sign" that John gives us? He says, "Many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples ... but these are written that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God".

J.T. Yes, it was the greatest visible "sign" as to the greatness of His Person. As a Man the Lord was here in humble guise, and the point in the signs was that the disciples might believe -- that we might really be believers on the Son. There are a great many christians who do not really believe on the Son; and John knew that; and he wrote to establish christians in the truth of the Son. He had, in fact, singled out these special signs that we might believe that Jesus is the Christ, and not only that, but that He is the Son of God.

E.J.McB. If one really believed in the Son nothing in the soul would wane or break down.

J.T. And there is no possibility of defeat. One remarkable thing about John's gospel is that it notes the Lord in isolation; and it also throws a slight on what was official. One of the most striking instances is in chapter 4, where the Lord is seen alone at the well. It is a most touching scene, and in the narrative there is a slight cast on the disciples. Why did they all go away and leave Him there? One would have thought, knowing the Lord, they would have lingered

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about with Him. But it says His disciples had gone into the city, and as the narrative proceeds, the woman appears, and she becomes the evangelist; and she had no official place at all. She was really an outcast; she comes into contact with Christ, and He tells her the most wonderful things. She goes back into the city, having left the waterpot, and says, "Come see a man ... is not this the Christ?" In principle she took back living water into Samaria and she bore a testimony. The disciples were looking after the material side -- they went to buy meat. When they came to the Lord they did not know what had transpired; they wondered why He talked with the woman; the disciples did not know the "meat" He had to eat. Now I think that there is a distinct slight cast upon the disciples there. Then you find in chapter 7: 53, they all went to their own homes, but Jesus went to the mount of Olives. Yet with all that there is a link formed between Christ and the remnant, and that link is represented here, I think, in Mary.

E.J.McB. Yes, and He recognizes them as His brethren.

J.T. You feel that He would not recognize any as His "brethren" unless they were morally qualified to be that.

Ques. Is the ascension here intended to indicate the way the affections of the disciples should take?

J.T. Yes, I think so; and also that before you can have public testimony the saints must understand their heavenly position. If you do not take up your heavenly position, the testimony is necessarily reduced. Now, the testimony of the assembly was to take character from the light in which the company is placed here. They are to be sent out into the world as witnesses, but they are sent out in the full light of their heavenly association and position.

Ques. What is the force of the verse in John 6,

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where the Lord says, "What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?"

J.T. It shows that He came out of heaven. The point in John 6, is the "bread which cometh down from heaven"; but in chapter 20 we have the Lord going up to heaven, and this involves the "old corn of the land". We need heavenly food to build us up in a heavenly constitution.

Ques. Can the christian have any other?

J.T. Yes, I think so. If you feed on the Psalms only you will not have a heavenly constitution. What are christians generally feeding upon? What people feed upon gives character to their constitution; and if you have not a heavenly constitution, you are not fitted for heaven. Neither are you qualified to render a heavenly testimony here. We not only need the light of our position, but the food that is suitable to it.

Ques. Would you say that sonship is involved in what we have here?

J.T. Yes, the brethren of Christ are also God's sons. The idea of sonship is the order of beings in which God delights; the idea of brethren is mutual affection.

Ques. So that you would say testimony is not simply the message, but the character of those that bring the message.

J.T. I think the vessel was to be suited for the message. The message was to prepare them for the visit, and it gives us the light of our position in relation to Christ, so that we may know how we are suited for such a visit.

Ques. Will you give us help as to the heavenly character of the assembly? Is it viewed in the light of the message -- "I ascend"?

J.T. Yes, that is the ground, and it signifies the attitude which you take up in your soul. Suppose a man is an Englishman; no matter where he is, the ground he takes is that he is an Englishman. Now,

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the ground that you take is that you are a heavenly man. You are entitled to take that ground. I think that the idea of "ground" is in that way symbolical. It is simply the attitude of soul you take up, and that gives character to your testimony. If it is a question of adverse power, I take the ground of resurrection; but if it be a question of position, the ground I take is that I am heavenly, and that delivers me from the earth.

E.J.McB. And that, as you were saying, prepares for the visit.

J.T. Yes. The first convening of the assembly, according to this chapter, is in the light of the heavenly position; there can be no question about that. And see what is involved: why it is wonderful that we are accorded such a place as that, and that these poor disciples should have such a marvellous message sent to them. I think it rendered them suited for the visit. It made them great enough for it. It did not as yet characterize them subjectively, but what we get here is the principle of the truth. They are seen together in the light of the message. John records all this here in order to set forth the heavenly position of the assembly -- the inward aspect of it. Acts gives us the outward aspect. Here the Spirit is given inwardly, the Lord breathes into them, whereas in Acts it is what is external -- "it sat upon each of them".

Ques. Would you say that a heavenly testimony comes out from the company, and that in John 20, the whole company is contemplated?

J.T. Yes: and that raises another important distinction to be made. At the outset the company at Jerusalem was formally designated "the assembly", but after the introduction of Paul's ministry, what we find is that the christian economy takes the form of local assemblies. The only mention of a general assembly subsequently is in Acts 15, and that was in the wisdom of God to connect the gentile work with

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the Jewish work; but under Paul's ministry the christian economy took the form of local assemblies. Hence all assembly privilege and responsibility from that time is connected with the local company.

Rem. And not with any general assembly at Jerusalem.

J.T. No. So we read -- "the assembly of God which is in Corinth ... with all that in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both theirs and ours". There, I think, you have intimated that the christian economy was to take the form of local assemblies. At the same time catholicity was to be maintained. Hence Paul could say, "If any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God". It was essential that the order of the house should be carried out in each local company. So now it is a question of each local company taking up the privileges that belong to the whole. Corinth is thus spoken of as God's assembly, and God's temple. Now all these thoughts have reference to the assembly as a whole.

Rem. The apostle says, "Thus I ordain in all the assemblies". That would show that the same thing was to prevail everywhere.

Ques. Would you say that in John 20, you get the constitution of the assembly?

J.T. I think we have there the inauguration of the assembly, not in its outward aspect, but in its heavenly relationship, privileges, and position. It is what is inner -- what is altogether spiritual; whereas the epistle to the Corinthians gives us what is outward.

E.J.McB. Is not one great privilege that you see the Lord?

J.T. Yes, I think so; He makes Himself known to the company; but that is spiritual. Do you not think so?

E.J.McB. Yes, entirely -- but it is real.

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J.T. We must not think that because a thing is spiritual, it is not real: the most real things are spiritual.

Ques. I would like to ask why it is that the Lord introduces the heavenly character of the assembly here, a difficulty existing in some minds is that the Lord had not yet ascended.

J.T. It is, as has often been said, a question of pattern; to show what the inner privileges of the assembly are; and it is that which qualifies us for the outer. If you only take the side presented in Acts, where we have the historical account of things, you would lose this side.

Ques. Why do you say pattern? Is it because the Lord inaugurated it Himself?

J.T. Yes; it is remarkable that in John's gospel he brings this out. The historical side in the Acts stands related to the official administration of the twelve. The Spirit came to them out of heaven, but it does not involve that they were heavenly. Now, John writes his gospel after all that which is official has given way, and he shows that the Lord inaugurated something quite outside of what is official. So the apostles are not called apostles here, they are simply disciples. Our privileges thus, as christians, are even greater than the gift of an apostle.

Rem. Does not officialism come in where there is a lack of spirituality?

J.T. Well yes, only I think we have to bear in mind that there was what was rightly official. The apostles were given an official place; but the system they inaugurated gave way, and John's testimony came in to meet that; he shows that the Lord set up something outside what was official, something that was wholly spiritual -- and that remains.

E.J.McB. It was really set up before that which was official.

J.T. Yes, and the Lord speaks of the saints here

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in the light of their relationship with Him, and then He places responsibility upon them. He says to them, "As my Father hath sent me, even so send I you". As a divine Person He breathes into them. It is not a question here of having received the Spirit from the Father, but He breathes into them Himself. Now Luke, in the Acts, gives you the other side. He shows us that the gift of the Spirit was connected with the promise of the Father; they were to wait for the fulfilment of the promise. Then Peter, standing up, tells them that "having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this which ye behold and hear". And he shows that God had made this same Jesus both Lord and Christ. That is what is official. But here in John it is most intimate and touching. He breathes into them; it is not official.

Rem. That was His own risen life.

J.T. Yes, it was His own life.

Rem. They were to go forth here in His own Spirit.

J.T. Really it was the Spirit of the ascended Man that they had received. It is a wonderful thought.

Ques. How is it that the disciples were found together again without any message, eight days after?

J.T. I think they took cognizance of the precedent established by the Lord; it is as if they appreciated the previous occasion.

Ques. What do you understand by the expression "eight days after"?

J.T. "Eight" signifies a new departure, and is mentioned first in connection with Noah. Seven is the order of God in creation, and eight is a new departure from that. But as in all Scripture, it has no private interpretation, and cannot be limited to any one thought. In this scripture I think you have also intimated that the first day of the week was the assembly day. Hence the same disciples are

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alluded to. It says, "eight days after, his disciples were again within".

Rem. Thomas is singled out in the second meeting.

J.T. Yes. He represents, no doubt, the remnant of Israel.

Rem. When it is said that the disciples were together, does it mean all the disciples?

J.T. It would seem so, as if it were said, 'The brethren of Belfast'. I think they were all there. It would appear that Thomas was the only one absent on the first occasion.

Ques. Do you take it to be representative of the whole company?

J.T. Yes, I think so. It says, "And eight days after, his disciples were again within ... Jesus comes, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst". Mr. Darby has pointed out in the Synopsis that the Lord in that way signalized the first day of the week as the day He met with His own down here. It is important to see that christianity is established on precedent rather than on commandment.

Rem. It came in before the Scriptures were written.

J.T. Yes. In the old economy it was a question of law. Moses was not the embodiment of the testimony; he was not the law. He told the people what to do. I think the point in christianity is that it is Christ expressed; the early christians were quick to discern things that the Lord did, and they attached value to them. It came out in a very remarkable way in Paul's ministry, for all that he taught was set forth in himself. He could ask the saints to be followers of him as he followed Christ. This establishes the great difference between the old economy and the new. In christianity you have everything witnessed to practically before it was established as a principle.

Rem. Reverting again to John 20, do you not

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think that the Lord would greatly encourage us so that we might come together with expectancy?

J.T. I think our great desire on the first day of the week should be to be free in our affections. That, I feel, is a point of immense importance. There is an opportunity of coming together, and it is not service that we have before us, or any ministry. We have come with the thought of being simply for Christ. It does not say in John that the disciples were together for any special purpose. In the Acts, it does; here it is not mentioned, but undoubtedly they had the Lord before them.

Rem. Of course in one sense we do come together on the Lord's day for a special purpose.

J.T. Yes, but it is only to prepare you for the Lord. You have Christ before you. You are going to be for Christ. In coming together for prayer we have the testimony to engage us. When we are together over the word as now, it is for mutual help. But in assembly it is that we may have Christ before us, and Him only.

Ques. With regard to precedent, can we do things by precedent now?

J.T. We have to go by what the Lord did, and by what the apostles did. I would not take account of any other precedent.

Ques. What do you mean by coming together in assembly?

J.T. I mean when we come together to be for Christ.

Rem. I think what you say expresses it: that we should seek to be free in our affections when we come together.

Ques. Would you say that the Supper is to set us free?

J.T. Yes, it has that effect. The assembly is the spiritual side, whereas the Supper is the external side. It comes under the eyes of men, and is a testimony

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The apostle says, "as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come". But the assembly is spiritual, and does not come under the eye of man.

Rem. If you enjoy the presence of the Lord, the world does not see that; it is what is outward they see.

J.T. Hence the order in God's assembly is a matter of great importance, as we see from the epistle to the Corinthians.

Ques. Does "feet washing" come in at the Supper?

J.T. Well, I think it may, in the sense that it relieves your mind and heart of what would hamper your spirit. The Lord would set us free, so that we may have part with Him.

Rem. I suppose in the Supper there is something both for our eyes and for our hearts?

J.T. Yes. In Luke 24 we get "He was made known to them in the breaking of bread". It does not say that it was in the eating; because He did not eat. The breaking is evidently for our hearts, but our eating is the expression of our fellowship; we are committed to His death, and we announce it.

Ques. And would you not say that it was a very fit moment to be looking for Him?

J.T. Well, it is a great thing to get the idea in one's soul that it is when the assembly is free that the Lord comes; then it is for Christ. "It is not good that man should be alone"; that is one thought. Another thought is that having lost Israel, the assembly is for His comfort. If we had been in the place of the disciples we should have understood the Supper. They understood it because they were acquainted with the Lord -- they knew how He did things.

Ques. Would you connect this with what we have in chapter 14?

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J.T. In John 14 things are, in a sense, made to depend on the coming of the Spirit. What is more prominent here is the Person of the Lord -- His own personal dignity, and the dignity of the assembly as associated with Him.

Ques. What do you mean by being free?

J.T. I mean to have sufficient spiritual power to lay aside distractions. You do not come to do anything. You come to break bread, but you have no thought before you of taking any part.

Rem. That is very important, because I think people often come with the idea of helping others.

J.T. You have no care before you; the thought is that you are free for Christ.

Rem. If we came in that way, the Lord would not disappoint us.

J.T. No, He would not. I think the highest thought in the assembly is that you are silent. One of the most sorrowful things is that, if there is a pause, some brother thinks he is bound to do something.

Ques. How does the "minister of the sanctuary" come in in connection with this thought?

J.T. The "minister of the sanctuary" applies to the occasion when we are together in assembly, but the epistle to the Hebrews as a whole has a more general bearing and contemplates the whole divine heavenly system. It is not a question there of the assembly convened, though the apostle says, "Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together"; but what he is dealing with is the new system, in contrast to the old, and he shows that the One who now ministers is in heaven.

E.J.McB. And have not the things in the sanctuary more the idea in them of what is official than of affection?

J.T. Yes. Hebrews is official, and is, I think, as I said, to show that the new system is heavenly. Christ does not come out. So it says, "who is set on the

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right hand of the throne ... in the heavens; a minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man". It is a priestly thought. It is the kind of minister -- "We have such an high priest ..." You will find in scriptures which are specially intended for Jewish christians that the heavenly side is insisted upon, because they were in danger of being held by the earthly system.

Rem. In Corinthians it is stated that God walks amongst His people and He dwells there. Is that the idea of the sanctuary?

J.T. The thought in the sanctuary is holiness. It is the divine enclosure; but in the epistle to the Hebrews it is the heavenly system, and Christ the minister of it.

E.J.McB. When you come to look into that epistle, is not that thought connected more with God, than with the Father and the family circle?

J.T. Yes, and that it is heavenly. The apostle says, "Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands ... but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us"; and he insists that such a High Priest became us, one who is made higher than the heavens. It shows what a wonderful company it is, that requires "such" a Priest as that. The Lord never ceases to be the heavenly Man.

Rem. And then we read, "such as the heavenly one, such also the heavenly ones".

J.T. I would not allow myself for a moment to take lower ground than that I am heavenly.

Rem. So that the testimony, as taking character from that, is heavenly.

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THE FLOCK AND THE BODY

John 10:15, 16; 1 Corinthians 12:12 - 27

J.T. One has in mind to link on the thought of the flock to the thought of the body.

The flock suggests an object of care. The idea of the body is testimony. The setting of the flock, as in John 10, links on with chapter 9, in which the blind man who has had his eyes opened is seen as cast out. It was said of old, "When my father and my mother forsake me, then the Lord will take me up". Psalm 27:10. Chapter 9 shows how a rejected, cast out believer is taken up by the Lord. But in being cast out, he had condemned that out of which he was cast. These are important factors leading up to the truth of the flock and of the body. In taking up our position with Christ, we take it up openly, and as exposing through testimony what we leave. Some of us have been brought up in households which are identified with the testimony, but many of us have come out of human organizations. Some here present may be still in them. The flock is that into which the Lord introduces the outcast. He cares for him in the most affectionate and dignified way, bringing him into that in which the knowledge is the same characteristically as between Himself and His Father.

J.O.S. The Lord's finding of the blind man would be on the line of care, would it not?

J.T. Yes. The Jews cast him out, and it was that fact which made him specially interesting to Christ. The fact that he was cast out proved that he had been faithful, so that now the Lord asks him whether he believes on the Son of God. The man says, "Who is he. Lord, that I might believe on him?" You find throughout that this man is frank in acknowledging his ignorance, which is an important

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thing if we are to get the truth. Even when they suggested that the Lord was a sinner he said he did not know. But he was very definite as to what he did know. These are important features.

Ques. What distinction would you make between the testimony rendered by the man, and the testimony in relation to the body?

J.T. The first is individual. It may be rendered anywhere, but it ought to lead to rejection. If, as a Christian, I am in a human organization and I am true in my witness, it will lead to my rejection.

Ques. Would Obadiah, in Ahab's household, illustrate the individual testimony, but lacking that which comes out later in Elijah on mount Carmel?

J.T. He is a good illustration of one who has light, also regard for the people of God, but does not move. There are many like that. Nicodemus witnessed in the council, but they did not cast him out. Obadiah remained in the system of Ahab and Jezebel; he hid the prophets of the Lord, but he was not identified with Elijah. The testimony of such, however, is of some value, as was the testimony of Nicodemus. He says, "Does our law judge a man before it have first heard from himself, and know what he does?" But he did not leave the council, nor did they ask him to leave. It would show that we may say many true things in false positions, and yet in our spirits we are not really judging the falsity of the position.

But they cast this man out. That is where the Lord comes in; He finds him. Many do not get help because they are not cast out, nor do they leave. When the Lord heard he was cast out He found him. He did not take him at once and put him into the fold, but first raised the question of hearing His voice. Moreover, He asks the man as to the Son of God; the Scriptures spoke about the Son of God, and apparently the man was not ignorant

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of that fact. He wanted to know, that he might believe.

W.T. Why should the Lord ask that question?

J.T. I think just to bring out this answer. "These are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name", John 20:31. The Lord knew what was in the man's heart; he had faith to believe in the Son of God.

ED.P. Was it a special case, to bring out divine teaching?

J.T. Yes, it is a special case, to bring out the great subject of the flock, and those who form it. The question of the Son of God enters into it. Do we believe on the Son of God? We are very conversant now with the term, but it was not so well known in the days of this man. It had been spoken of in the Old Testament, and no doubt was a part of the teaching in Jerusalem, for Jehovah had said, "Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee". Psalm 2:7. The Lord's question implied that the Son of God was not merely the subject of a prophetic psalm; He was actually on earth. To believe on Him was a test.

R.P. Would you say this is the normal way in which the soul would move in relation to Christ, as finding itself linked up with associations here which are contrary to Him?

J.T. I think so. Having been cast out, what are you going to do? What would become of a man cast out? It was not a time of religious independency like the present time. He was without a country, we may say, or a religion, and his parents had failed to come to his support. The Lord was in that position too. He was an outcast, a reproach in the world. What is going to happen? Well, the Son of God will bring in another world.

Ques. Is that seen in Abiathar -- "With me thou shalt be in safeguard"? (1 Samuel 22:23).

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J.T. That illustrates it well. What we see here is the establishment of a new order of things by the Son of God. It takes, first, the form of a shepherd and his sheep, but it leads on to the Son of God as known through the resurrection of the dead, as at Bethany.

Ques. Why do you think Nathanael addresses the Lord as the Son of God?

J.T. He gives the idea of scriptural intelligence, representing the remnant of Israel, "under his fig-tree". This "Israelite indeed" was evidently conversant with Scripture, and in coming to Jesus greets Him: "Thou art the Son of God, thou art the King of Israel". This embodies the testimony of the second psalm. Nathanael represents the Israel of the future.

The blind man is an outcast, and he has condemned what has rejected him. He believes on and worships Jesus as the Son of God. He represents the material for the new order of things. So the Lord proceeds to set up another world, taking up the idea of a shepherd and sheep, as if to stress His gracious care and love for His own as defenceless in this world. He is the Good Shepherd who laid down His life for the sheep. The Lord speaks about other sheep which He had: He had all His sheep in view. There are two words used in the New Testament for "flock", one suggesting a little flock. It is not that in verse 16: what the Lord would lead into is large. He would bring the others also. We have come into something very great, but very precious to Christ.

Ques. The woman in John 4 is concerned about "the Christ".

J.T. That is the Anointed. Here it is a question of believing on the Person. "Who is he", says the man, "that I might believe on him?"

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W.T. Was the man fit material to be put into the flock?

J.T. He was. The Lord knows just how far on each one of us is, and so He challenges us as to what we believe. It is a question of faith -- the basis for the building up of a new system.

L.D.M. Have we not all to arrive at this point, whether we have left a system or whether we have been brought up amongst the saints?

J.T. This section of Scripture indicates what we are brought into either as cast out or as coming out.

Ques. Would the Lord's dealing with Saul of Tarsus come in on the same line?

J.T. Just so. God had revealed His Son in him, evidently before he preached Him. The point here is that you believe on Him. The man said definitely what he knew. First he says, "I received sight"; then, to the Pharisees, "I see". Then he goes further, and exposes them: the Lord had opened his eyes, and they were saying He was sinful. He says, "Since the world began was it not heard that any man opened the eyes of one that was born blind", verse 32. He is true to what he knows, and makes the most of it. This is how testimony is rendered, because it is what one knows best, that tells.

As he spoke to them, light was coming into his soul. You cannot define it, but there it is. The Lord knew that, so He asks whether he can go further than anything he has yet said. The Lord watches you bearing faithful testimony, wherever you may be; He watches till you are ready for something further.

S.V. Does the Lord need such material with which to form the flock?

J.T. That is it. The Son of God gives us to understand who He is and how He cares for us. How tender He is! He impresses us with His love, as needing it. But then He goes on to the thought of

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other sheep and one flock. It runs with the idea of the whole assembly. In Luke 12:32. Acts 20:28, 29 and 1 Peter 5:2, 3 -- "the flock" is the diminutive thought.

S.V. It says here, one flock.

J.T. Yes. It is very precious to have part in this flock, for it is the object of the Lord's tenderest care. He is everything to the sheep, and they are everything to Him. He gives them eternal life, and they will never perish. It is all from the side of the care of His love.

But then we find that those forming the flock are to be anointed -- and that is how the idea of the flock links on with that of the body.

L.D.M. This flock would be too big for Judaism -- the fold.

J.T. Quite so. A fold is not movable: the flock is. The assembly has no fixity here at all, but bears the character of the tabernacle in the wilderness. Fixity for us, is in heaven. You do not build a cathedral, for it would give fixity. And we do not attach any importance to our meeting places. They are not sanctified. They may be vacated at any moment.

S.V. So a meeting room is not an essential?

J.T. It is just a convenience by the way. Our position is a provisional one as in the wilderness. For a fixed state of things you must go to the temple as built by Solomon.

L.D.M. It says, "Shall go in and out, and find pasture".

J.T. That is the thought. There is liberty today; no one forbids us. But going in and out is more a spiritual idea. Every believer has liberty to go in and out, and find pasture. Every member of the flock can go in to God, and can be trusted to go out. One is saved as coming in by the door, which is Christ.

Ques. Would the understanding of the truth of

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the flock save us from clericalism? Would not the latter be the opposite of "going in and out"?

J.T. That is what I was thinking. Clericalism revives the limitations of Judaism. The Lord Himself, even, could not go beyond the court of the temple at Jerusalem! The whole of this passage relates to the care of the shepherd, His love and what it does for us. Every one of us, even Paul and Peter, come in here. The most distinguished servant is in the flock.

But when you come to the body (1 Corinthians 12:12), it is called "the Christ". It means that we are anointed, and that we are here for testimony. It is the strongest figure of our oneness you can get. It is an organism. We are bound together thus with a view, to bearing testimony.

A.E.C. Does the blind man give the idea of transference from a dead system to a living organism?

J.T. Yes. The flock is not an organism, but it leads to it. The organism is in the Lord's mind, and the position of sheep is in view of it. We learn the Lord's care, and we learn to love one another as under it in the flock. That is what qualifies us to be anointed -- "the Christ". The man who had his eyes opened is a model sheep. It is very precious to think, that as witnessing for Christ and being cast out, you come under all this care -- the sacrifice and care of His love.

W.T. How do you understand the putting forth of His sheep and going before them?

J.T. It brings out the greatness of the shepherd. Putting forth involves control, using it to take His own out of a position God has judged; then He goes before them and they follow knowing His voice. Much outward detail attaches to all this, so that the sheep are outside, but the influence and leadership of the Shepherd enter throughout into their deliverance.

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From the flock we merge into the body. The Holy Spirit gives us to understand this: the latter is Paul's side. This passage shows how John supports Paul's ministry, as has been pointed out.

G.E. Would this be illustrated in Paul's introduction to the assembly? (Acts 9).

J.T. That corresponds with this chapter. From that point onwards, you get the preaching of the Son of God. The body is for a representation of Christ here.

Ques. Does John 17 give us the full light of that?

J.T. It is parallel. The thought of unity is one of the great features of the Lord's prayer there. But in John 10 it is, "there shall be one flock, one shepherd": all the sheep are included, and they are all the subjects of His affections and His care.

Ques. We are not prepared for the body unless we love one another?

J.T. Certainly we are not. The body is an organism, growing out of the unity of affection.

Rem. It is an important feature that the sheep should hear the shepherd's voice.

J.T. Yes, it says they know it. The idea in sheep as seen here is that they are the subjects of the love and care of the Shepherd, not that of responsibility. In the body you have the idea of obligation -- we are anointed in view of testimony: "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit", 1 Corinthians 12:13.

There are two ideas here. The first concerns something done to me -- I am baptized in the power of the one Spirit. Then I am made to do something -- to drink into one Spirit, which implies satisfaction. That is to say, the position is not irksome to me; I find satisfaction in it. That is what gives permanency in testimony. No one who has been "made to drink

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into one Spirit" would be dissatisfied or quarrelsome. God has committed Himself to us in the anointing, and it is of all moment that we should be united in heart, drinking into the same Spirit, and finding it is worth our while: it is satisfying.

J.O.S. Does the anointing mean that the saints are made capable of representing Christ?

J.T. Yes. The anointing is divine committal and power of service.

Ques. As coming under the anointing, would there not be the recognition of Christ as Head?

J.T. You must go to Colossians properly for headship. The instruction here is to set us in relation to one another and maintain us thus. "So also is the Christ" does not mean that that characterized the Corinthians. It did not. Paul is bringing in what is normally characteristic of the saints, so as to promote this at Corinth.

J.O.S. Does not the Spirit in this chapter act of Himself?

J.T. That is the point of view. The chapter generally deals with the action of the Spirit. He baptizes us into one body. By the Spirit one merges with the other brethren in a locality and generally; and so drinks into the Spirit that is among them. Thus he does not complain about the position at all. He is in an organism, and has to perform his function there.

L.D.M. We cannot get away from that, can we?

J.T. No; the thing in view here is that we should not. If the foot say, "Because I am not a hand I am not of the body, is it on account of this not indeed of the body?"

L.D.M. It would save us from being "freelances", would it not?

J.T. Yes. In verse 21 it says, "The eye cannot say to the hand, I have not need of thee; or again, the head to the feet, I have not need of you": that is to

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say, the governing principle forbids it. You cannot say that you have no need of another.

Ques. Would the Spirit help us to find our distinctive place in the body?

J.T. Yes; we are set in the body as it has pleased God, verse 18. The pleasure of God is a very precious thing to realize.

L.D.M. Would it underlie our practical testimony?

J.T. I think it would.

J.O.S. Is that testimony rendered effective by the body?

J.T. The body is for the diffusion of the light. The temple has the light, but the body diffuses it. So that a very heavy responsibility rests on us as anointed. As acting together, it works out practically at the Lord's supper. In chapter 11 you have the bread and the cup. It takes some time for these to go round, varying with the size of the meeting; but the silence does not simply mean that I sit through the time. That is not the idea of the body. The thing is to learn how to sit unitedly, silently, in the power of the Spirit. The time will pass very quickly then. It often takes more spiritual power to sit silent than it does to take audible part. There was not a single word spoken at the supper table at Bethany, so far as Scripture says, until the silence was broken by Judas. And then the Lord spoke to defend Mary; John 12.

F.W. Would you say more as to our being together body-wise.

J.T. It is the communion of the body of Christ. The word communion means fellowship, or our public relations one with another. It is the bread which we break; the fellowship implies that we are committed to one another, for the passage goes on to say, "Because we, being many, are one loaf, one body; for we all partake of that one loaf". This passage in 1 Corinthians 10 is based on what is done as

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the Lord's supper is partaken of according to chapter 11. The unity of intelligent affection is seen there.

ED.P. Why does it say "Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace"? (Ephesians 4:3). Would the keeping of it be tantamount to keeping the unity of the body?

J.T. It would work out that way. In keeping the unity of the spirit I am thinking of all my brethren, and keeping in mind that the whole assembly is governed by the same truths, principles, feelings, and motives. Abstractly this unity exists, and we endeavour to keep it.

J.O.S. Does the drinking into the one Spirit contribute to that unity?

J.T. Yes. We are held together in spiritual affections.

Ques. It does not necessarily involve being together in one place, does it?

J.T. No. Ephesians does not contemplate that. It sets out the general position. Of course the local assembly is recognized -- "the saints which are at Ephesus".

Ques. Could it be worked out locally?

J.T. Surely. The unity of the Spirit involves the mystery -- that we know how to keep secrets.

Ques. Does 1 Corinthians 12 involve normal christianity?

J.T. Yes: the apostle says "we", instead of "ye", as in chapter 10. "We" implies the saints as a whole, not only those local to Corinth. It is the abstract thought of the assembly. He comes down to the practical working of it in verse 27 -- "Now ye are Christ's body, and members in particular". That would show how it can be worked out locally.

ED.P. Would verse 27 apply in the abstract only, or in the concrete also?

J.T. The abstract, in this sense, has no value unless there is some concrete expression of it. "Ye are

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Christ's body, and members in particular". It shows the burden that rests upon us. Christ is, though hidden from the eyes of men, expressed here in this mysterious way.

L.D.M. Does the loaf give the local idea of the body?

J.T. Yes. The fellowship is only one, but it has a general character and a local character. That saves us from being congregational churches, acting as if self-contained. The general fellowship works out locally, and the local fellowship works out generally -- "so ordain I in all churches", 1 Corinthians 7:17. The apprehension of the assembly and the practical working of it is the most important thing for the moment, following upon the truth of the Lord's Person. If He acquires a place in our hearts as to who He is, the next great thing is the assembly, and how to be "together in assembly". It is made very practical, in that we are enabled to sit together, not as so many units, but as one, with genuine feelings and affections for one another; with one thought before us. Thus the assembly appears under the Lord's eye, and He delights in it. As together in assembly we are to be "to another, even to him who is raised from the dead". Romans 7:4.

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THE LORD KNOWETH THEM THAT ARE HIS

2 Timothy 2:19; Revelation 3:20; Acts 9:11: Genesis 18:19: Exodus 4:14

I have before me to speak about the Lord's knowledge of His people. The apostle in 2 Timothy 2:19 brings the subject, in a general way, before us: "The Lord knoweth them that are his". This is indeed one side of the seal, and the other side is, "Let everyone that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity", for the foundation of God stands. This is a very important fact for us as we think of our brethren who are not available to us, and as seeking to maintain the fellowship of God's Son to which we have been called. Whilst there is the precious word that blessing attaches to all Israel that are present at any time when the saints come together in assembly, yet we cannot but recognize that only a few are present; there are many others, and if we are near the Lord, we miss them. They are our relatives, spiritually, and have a place on the shoulder-pieces of the High Priest, and on the breastplate, a place in the divine counsels. So we miss them, and this should not be a mere theoretical thing but something felt, that there are many who are not available.

This two-sided seal that I have spoken of is a sort of mandate that the Lord has given to His people in our time, so that our position is not one devised by ourselves. It has authority in it; in a sense, it has as much authority as existed on the day of Pentecost. On the day of Pentecost, as a great many were converted and added, it is said of them, that they continued "in the teaching and fellowship of the apostles". That means that they recognized the authority; it was not simply a teaching that they had acquired themselves, it was the apostles' teaching which they persisted

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in, and the apostles' fellowship. The teaching and fellowship had authority behind them, so that they were not merely a sect with their own peculiar thoughts.

Now our position today is equal to theirs in principle and detail as having this mandate behind it, and that involves the whole teaching of the apostles. That mandate applies to the present time as having recognized the confusion in the profession around us. There was no need of it at the outset, but it is needed now, because the position is questioned. Hence the mandate becomes of exceeding importance -- "the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, the Lord knows those that are his; and, Let every one who names the name of the Lord withdraw from iniquity". We can stand in the presence of all our brethren -- if we can only get them to listen to us -- and tell them it is here we stand, we cannot do otherwise, the matter is imperative. If some do not listen, thank God for those who do! But as the prophetic word says, "Yet will I gather others to him, with those ... that are gathered", but it will be a small percentage, a minority, and the feeling of sorrow must continue, if we are with God, as to their delinquency in obeying the mandate. Nevertheless the feeling of sorrow is allayed by the thought that "The Lord knoweth them that are his". They may not be aware of it, but we are; it is that which we have in the seal.

I want to touch on the letters to the seven assemblies in that relation, for they synchronize with 2 Timothy. The addresses to the assemblies show that the Lord not only knows them that are His, but He knows where they are. He knows all about them; He is conversant with all the circumstances attaching to them, whether viewed ecclesiastically or otherwise; hence in the passage I have read. He says, "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock". The Lord is not content with simply knowing them that are His, but He is seeking them out, not silently, but

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loudly, as persistently "knocking". It is a continuous thing, "Behold, I stand at the door and am knocking".

It is a comfort to those who know Him, and are sympathetic with Him, but it is also a challenge as to whether we have part in the knocking. Though the Lord Jesus speaks to the assemblies in this symbolical way, as walking in the midst of them, He is not corporeally there, He is in heaven, but He serves them mediately through others. As walking in the midst of the assemblies in a spiritual sense, it is through others that He is exercising this service. That brings exercise as to whether we are in His hands as regards this knocking.

The Lord says in chapters 2 and 3, "I know". It comes like balm to one's soul. Others do not know what our circumstances may be, and thus we are deprived of their sympathy. It may be soul trouble, or business trouble, or family sorrow, but the word, "I know" from the Lord is like heavenly balm. Seven times over it occurs in these chapters, covering all the saints from that time until the rapture. The first things He speaks of as knowing are commendable things, and this would encourage us, for, whatever trouble souls are in, the Lord says, "I know", and He commends us in things which, perhaps, we may have forgotten. But then His faithfulness requires that He should call attention to other things; it may be the things that have brought on the sorrow. We should know what has brought on the sorrow, but He does not fail to tell us what has brought it on. Others may conjecture the cause, but it is often hidden and known only to God.

In Job's case, the real cause of his sorrow, as calamity came upon him, was not known to Job himself at first, though he held fast his integrity. It was a long process of the chiding of his friends, and the faithful presentation of the truth through Elihu, until finally, the Lord Himself, in unfailing faithfulness,

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brought home to him what the real root was, so that he said, "now mine eye seeth thee". What a wonderful experience to be brought, through discipline, face to face with God, so as to say, "now mine eye seeth thee"!

What I particularly had in mind in regard to this knocking on the part of the Lord, is His unfailing faithfulness in the present moment. Whoever they may be, or wherever the Lord's people are, He knows them, and He knows their circumstances, and He continues knocking. The knocking requires that He knows the towns and the villages and streets and the numbers on the doors of the saints; and the object is, "if any one hear my voice and open the door" -- think of the Lord of glory, the Upholder of all things, the Creator, knocking at the door! It is most touching, and it ought to challenge us, as to whether we have part in this service. If any man open unto me, "I will come in unto him and sup with him, and he with me".

In the gospels we see how He goes after the sheep; the Shepherd will go to any length after the sheep. You will remember the journey to Emmaus -- it was a distance of sixty furlongs, and He would have gone further for He will go to any length in order to secure the return of a wanderer. "He made as though he would go farther", it is to remind us of His patience in following up those who have wandered from Him. With the Lord Jesus this kind of service will go on, and the present time calls particularly for this service of knocking, knocking at the doors of His people; and then there is the offer to the one who hears His voice, "I will come in unto him and sup with him". He has His own way of knocking. It is not a corporeal action but a spiritual movement which would convey to that one that He has a place to which He would invite him. He would say as it were, I will come in to you, and sup with

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you, but I have a better place in which you may sup with Me. Think of supping with Him in His place! He would invite you to it as He did the disciples who left John the Baptist in John 1. When they asked, "Where abidest thou?" He said to them, "Come and see". We may be assured they were pleased to stay there, it was not irksome. The Spirit of God tells us, "They abode with him that day".

From Acts 9 I want to show how the Lord acts in detail: Saul representing one whom the Lord would serve, but through another. We are shown the way of His doing it now. Saul has to come to it, that he is to learn from other believers, and we also have to learn that way. There are those who assume that it is not necessary; but let it be understood by everyone here, that you have to learn from other believers. The Lord will not allow anyone to pass by His people, those who love Him; for in principle, they are the assembly. Everyone who, like Saul, has come under the direct ministry of the Lord, will be sent by Him into the city, and there it will be told him what he is to do. This is a very important point to any one who seeks to learn. There is the teaching, but there must also be the learning, and I must understand through whom the teaching is to come. It may be humbling to find that I have to learn from persons I regard less than myself. Thus Jesus tells Saul that he should go into the city to be told what to do, involving that he must learn from persons who were of much less account in this world than he. It is a salutary lesson. Saul said, "What shall I do?" which was right, and the Lord could have Himself told Saul what to do, but He said, "Go into the city, and it shall be told thee". One would say to anyone in christendom that he has to learn, not from the hierarchy, but from persons of no religious reputation in this world.

The Lord not only knew the city but the name of

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the street, and the house in which he was. The Lord had His eye on that man, and He has His eye on every one of His own, but especially on one who like Saul is in the throes of concern about his soul. He said to Ananias, "Behold he prayeth". The Lord knows anyone who is praying genuinely, and will not fail to help him; it may be by sending someone to him. We are very slow to move at His bidding; but if there is one praying, the Lord has someone whom He can send to him. So the Lord sees to it that Ananias goes, for chapter 9 stresses the idea of His authority. It is very comforting that the Lord not only knows them that are His, but He has authority to obtain service from them. So Ananias goes and lays his hand on the praying man and says to him, "Saul, brother". He serves in the spirit that he has gathered up in the presence of the Lord. The Lord knew what was going on in Saul's soul, and that he was praying, and so He sends His servant, having fitted him for a service to be rendered. It does not appear that Ananias was a distinguished servant of the Lord, for he is never spoken of afterwards except by Paul, and then it is in relation to this incident. So the apostle has to begin to learn from one who is of much less account than himself, from one that he would despise naturally perhaps.

The history of Abraham in the Old Testament amplifies this. He is properly Abraham, the believer. He stands out as the father of all believers; but what is said by Jehovah in Genesis 18:19 is, "I know him". Not only in the sense of Timothy, as merely one of the elect, but He knows him as one who will command his house after him, to "keep the way of Jehovah, to do righteousness and justice".

It is a very important matter as to how the Lord knows us; in relation to our houses, is the point here. He visited Abram according to chapter 17, and had

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carried on a holy conversation with him, telling him that He was the Almighty God, and showing His power. Then, having changed his name to Abraham, He gives him the covenant of circumcision, and we are told "God went up from Abraham". This is most interesting, Jehovah having to do with a man who has a house, giving him the covenant of circumcision and then leaving off talking with him. What will Abraham do as left alone? You remember in the gospels how it is said the Lord laid His hands on the children and departed. What happened afterwards? The children were left with those responsible for them.

So here He went up from Abraham, and Abraham, we are told, circumcised "all the men of his house" that selfsame day: that is to say, he is proved to be the keeper of God's commandments. Presently, Jehovah comes back with two others. How great a favour! It is a household matter. One of the most humbling things is to see believers seeking to go on with the Lord's people, while the children are allowed to go on in the world. Not so with Abraham. Jehovah says, "I know him that he will command his children and his household after him". He came back to Abraham, and came back in company, and moves on; "and Abraham stood yet before the Lord". Abraham is not one who wishes the meeting to be shortened. Think of the grace shown in this second visitation -- the honour that Jehovah should wait with the other two until Abraham brought the refreshment! God dignifies a man's household on the basis of faithfulness -- and then He tarries with the patriarch as he intercedes for Sodom. Jehovah had said, "Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do? ... for I know him"; He knew him as a father, as a husband, and that he would command his children, and his household after him. Thus he is the friend of God. In this

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chapter we learn that God conveys to us what He is about to do, because of faithfulness in our houses.

I pass on to Exodus 4 in speaking of how the Lord knows us. Moses was complaining that he was not ready for his mission, for the great honour of being sent to Israel. He said, "I am not eloquent ... but I am slow of speech". It may be that there are those whom the Lord would call into His service, and who are slow to move -- but the need is great. One has often gone over the incident of the loosing of the colt in the gospels. Matthew tells us that the Lord had need of them; that is He needed the ass and the colt, which would be an allusion to the formation of a meeting. The Lord has great need of new material, but such material as Matthew suggests -- "two of you" (two of the assembly). Mark says, "the Lord hath need of him". He needs a servant. The need is great. Some of us who move about in service know how great it is. The Lord has need of those who can serve His people, but He never sends us at our own expense. He will furnish us with all that we need. He is not an austere Master.

Luke says the same: "The Lord hath need of him". In John, He does not send the message at all. He finds a colt Himself and sat on it. What does He do? I would say to young brothers, be sure you are found. He is finding those who are spiritually available and He will continue to find such. How great an honour to that colt, that he should carry the KING into the royal city! Thus the Lord is seeking those available in view of the continuance of the service, that is what is going on now. It is a question as to whether the Lord knows any of us to be as He requires.

He has appointed Moses to His service, but Moses said, I cannot speak. Then Jehovah says, "Is not Aaron the Levite thy brother? I know that he can

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speak well". One prays continually for such an one as this, Aaron, the Levite, thy brother; one not hitherto mentioned, though he is now eighty-two years of age. We may be assured there are many such, and the Lord gives us to understand that He knows just what we are capable of. The first thing is that Aaron is a Levite. We have never heard his name before but he was there, and the Lord knew what was in his heart. He is a Levite, and we shall understand what that means if we read Exodus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua and Chronicles. It is a question of what Jehovah knew was in that man.

How blessed the thought for anyone desiring to serve the Lord, though he may be hidden away, his name not known amongst us, yet the Lord knows. He says of Aaron, "I know that he can speak well". How He watches over us in secret! He knows the Gideons, the Aarons, the Davids -- He knows they are suitable for an emergency. It is very beautiful in Aaron's case, because he was ready: the Lord says, "Behold, he goeth out to meet thee; and when he seeth thee he will be glad in his heart". I think that is what should be before us. If we are before the Lord in secret in regard to His service, He will bring out His Aarons, His Levites -- and they will become polished shafts for His service. Let us not appoint them, for the Lord says, "I know". The Lord has to do that Himself. He moves before us in the appointing of His servants. It is a matter of secret history. We know one another very little, but the Lord knows us from the outset. He says, "I know that he can speak well. And also behold, he goeth out to meet thee". Moses had the light direct from God. Aaron could never have Moses' place, but he was to be his spokesman. Alas, he envied Moses later, but he did not at first.

In closing I want to point out how a man like Moses, himself one of the most distinguished of

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speakers, can appeal for confirmation to Jehovah on the ground that He had said, "I know thee by name". How he valued the fact of Jehovah's knowledge of him, not as in the sense of 2 Timothy, but according to his faithfulness. How God honours a man like that! He said of him, "he is faithful in all my house. Mouth to mouth do I speak to him openly". He spoke to Moses face to face as a man speaks with a friend. Think of Jehovah coming down to the door of the tent, and speaking with him as a man speaks with his friend! How wonderful to be known thus! I link it with the word in 1 Corinthians 8:3 -- "If any man love God, the same is known of him". God honours those who love Him. How great the inducement to be a lover of God! Like Moses and many other devoted servants, so the lover of God today is "known of him".

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THE HOLY MOUNTAIN

2 Peter 1:16 - 18; Exodus 24:9 - 18

J.T. Mountains have a very important place in Scripture, particularly in Matthew and Exodus; and Peter's allusion, as from one who was in the full appreciation of what had been presented on one, serves to bring out the importance of mountains. Having had many years to think over what had been presented on the mount, it seemed to increase in value in his eyes and thoughts, reminding us that as we advance, what we learn in early years increases in value in our estimation. The gospel as rightly presented should convey the suggestion of the assembly, and normally we increase in our appreciation of it, so that instead of being theoretic in our references, we are "full of sap", and fresh in our service.

A.E.L. Do you mean that in preaching the gospel, the assembly is before one? In what character particularly would that be?

J.T. Well, it is brought in at the end of Romans as the mystery. Something is mentioned, as of great importance, that is not unfolded at the moment: it is obvious that normally we would begin to enquire, and the enquirers get the light and instruction. It was presented by the Lord at once in the case of Saul of Tarsus -- "Why persecutest thou me?" and it evidently never lost its power in his soul, but rather increased. Ephesians brings it in in its fulness.

A comparison of Peter's comments as to the holy mount, with the mountain in Exodus, would help us as to the assembly. It involves moral elevation in Matthew 17. As the truth of the assembly is announced, chapter 16, we have a selection of persons to go up. Matthew only of the evangelists formally mentions the assembly. Three disciples are selected

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out of many, and although they but little appreciated what was there then. Peter shows that he did appreciate it afterwards. As we grow older, we increase in our appreciation of testimony presented to us.

A.E.L. I should like to follow how you bring the assembly in in that connection, for there are only three persons selected.

J.T. It is to bring out the personnel of the assembly, what is suitable in the way of personal dignity. They saw great things up there, and later understood the bearing of them. What they saw on the mount had reference to the assembly. It was to make them great inwardly, that they were taken up. Peter's letter shows how he had come to value it; he was now consciously equal to it -- "When we were with him", he says, not 'when Moses or Elijah were with him', but "when we were with him". Starting with that, we might get a little clue as to the assembly in its greatness. The persons who form it are necessarily great. Moses and Elijah were brought in there by an extraordinary act of God, but they are not the material for the assembly, they represent heavenly personages equal to speaking with the Lord Jesus in the very height of the glory. They were speaking with Him, showing how great they were; the idea being that we can speak to the Lord as in the midst of the greatest glory, it is not too great for us. Luke refers to Moses and Elias as two men.

W.H. In Matthew's gospel it does not say of Peter, "not knowing what he said". As Matthew treats of the assembly, this may suggest intelligence in him.

J.T. It tends to minimize his ignorance at any rate. "Moses and Elias appeared to them talking with him". Matthew 17:3. Then it says, as regard the others, "the disciples hearing it fell upon their

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faces, and were greatly terrified", showing that they were not equal to the scene, but they received impressions. We get impressions early, and although we may not at the time be equal to what they convey, God brings us to it. The point is, God brings us to the result; these two personages appeared to them in glory talking with Him, and they were equal to it; as if God would convey that His thought is to make us all equal to the glory. Peter does not allude to Moses and Elias, but to himself. John and James -- "when we were with him in the holy mount". As the scene is over, "lifting up their eyes, they saw no one but Jesus alone", and Mark adds, "with themselves". They are to be brought to this great scene in their souls, so that they are equal to the glory. We often lack "wings" in our assembly meetings -- "They shall mount up with wings as eagles", Isaiah 40:31. We stay about too much at the bottom of the mountain, whereas the glory is on the top. We get in Exodus, "The glory of Jehovah abode on mount Sinai, and the cloud covered it six days; and on the seventh day he called to Moses out of the midst of the cloud. And the appearance of the glory of Jehovah was like a consuming fire on the top of the mountain". In Moses there is one equal to it.

A.E.L. It was a bright cloud in Matthew.

J.T. Yes, showing the advance from the wilderness. If we understood the kind of persons that are seen there, we should have it before us that the divine thought is that we should be brought to that. If we see the thought of God for us and seek it, we are brought to it. God could have brought this glorious scene down, and the Lord could have been transfigured at the bottom of the mountain, if it were merely a question of what God could do; but Exodus 24 shows that the divine thought was that they should go up; the chapter begins with that, the

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covenant is introduced afterwards and then they go up, verse 9. Then we get the fulness of glory, a man entering into it. He is seen before he enters in, and then he enters in. There is the glory that we behold, and the glory that we share; we want to understand now how we are to share things with Christ, and then how we are to behold the glory that is peculiar to Himself.

A.E.L. In the future?

J.T. Yes.

Ques. Do you suggest that we may even be occupied with the Lord as in resurrection without seeing Him go up?

J.T. Yes, we must see Him go up to get the full divine thought; the assembly belongs to heaven.

Ques. At the end of Matthew the Lord said that they should go into Galilee and there they should see Him, but it says of the disciples, they "went into Galilee to the mountain which Jesus had appointed them" -- do you think they were equal to His thought there?

J.T. That is exactly the point. We go up to Him in chapter 5 and hear His teaching. Several mountains intervene, and the one you allude to is the last; in Matthew it is the place of a divinely appointed meeting. They had already learned to go up with Him, but now they go up by themselves, and He comes and meets them there.

A.E.L. Have you any thought as to why it is only three disciples on the mount of transfiguration? for in the last instance it is all of them.

J.T. It is, I think, to bring out the principle of selection that runs right through Scripture.

A.E.L. Would it be for testimony?

J.T. It would be competency for full testimony. As I was remarking, we remain too much at the bottom of the mountain, but we thus miss the glory.

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for God does not come down with it. The Lord took them up to the mountain and the glory came there; so here. Exodus 24, the idea is of the ascent first on the part of the people, then the glory. In chapter 34, after the breakdown, Moses ascended alone -- there is no one at all to go but himself. Here the others go part of the way with him -- that is our privilege. The Lord goes beyond anything we can ever compass, but still we go up. The setting of the truth is that at the beginning of the chapter there is the suggestion of ascending as the predominating idea: "Go up to Jehovah, thou and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel; and worship afar off. And let Moses alone come near Jehovah". That is the position; and the next thing is, how are they to go up? Are we to go up in slavish fear? or are we to go up in the liberty the love of God affords? This is what the type means. The God to whom we ascend, is the God who loves us. If we know His love we shall not have any fear in our hearts in going up.

Then the chapter says, "Moses came and told the people all the words of Jehovah, and all the judgments; and all the people answered with one voice, and said. All the words that Jehovah has said will we do! And Moses wrote all the words of Jehovah, and rose up early in the morning, and built an altar under the mountain, and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel". It is as if Moses had said, 'I am not going to write until you commit yourselves'; the covenant is to be written, for it is to stand. But how is it to stand? Only on the principle of sacrifice; and moreover, it stands in relation to all. The twelve pillars mean all the saints, they convey the great general thought. Then the officers are not to be mere officials, going through the service as a routine; they are to be in youthful freshness. That is the next thing: he sends youths,

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and "they offered up burnt-offerings, and sacrificed sacrifices of peace-offering of bullocks to Jehovah". They would do it in a fresh, energetic way, there would be nothing stale about them. That is the feature that God indicates here. Then after that the blood is put in the basons, meaning that it is there in volume, which has its own voice, and "Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel went up", verse 9. Verses 1 and 2 give the divine direction, and verse 9 is the answer to it.

Rem. If we understood what is there we should go up.

J.T. Exactly. But God is seeking company up above. He is ready to come down to walk with them, as He did for hundreds of years; 1 Chronicles 17:5, but now they are to gratify His heart by going up to His own sphere.

Ques. Do we get His own sphere suggested in the excellent glory referred to in the passage read in 2 Peter?

J.T. Yes, the word "excellent" points to it. Peter has a great vocabulary of superlatives of which we ought to learn the meaning.

C.T.L. Does the presentation of the love in the Lord's supper help us in going up?

J.T. That is what is in view in the type in the blood of the covenant; the words are almost those the Lord uses as to the supper, only that we have the new covenant; this is a type of the new.

W.H. Do you think we ought always to go up after the supper?

J.T. Yes, I think that is what God is looking for. We begin at the bottom where our responsibility was, and is; the Lord's supper refers to that, it is here: there is what is here, and what is there.

C.T.L. Why do you think it is we are so reluctant to go up?

J.T. I think there is a good deal of teaching

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needed, to get our minds running in right channels; and then, if we are honest, as we take on the teaching, we want to be in keeping with it; and God has given us the power in the Spirit to be in keeping with it. In the second prayer of the apostle in Ephesians he bows his knees, as if to suggest that the thing in view is great, but not much realized. He bowed his "knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, of whom every family in the heavens and on earth is named, in order that he may give you according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with power by his Spirit in the inner man". Ephesians 3:14 - 16. That is what is needed.

Ques. Is the blood presented here as the death of Christ on the love side?

J.T. I think so, there is no sin offering.

Ques. Would you say the Lord led the woman of Sychar to the true mountain? She could say, "Our fathers worshipped in this mountain".

J.T. Just so. I believe an examination of mountains, especially in Exodus and Matthew, would help greatly as to worship.

Ques. Do you think the seventy represent those in whom the teaching of the Lord has become effective? I was thinking of the scripture, "Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty", 2 Corinthians 3:17 -- liberty to go up.

J.T. I think so. The proposal in the beginning of the chapter is God's. The next thing is, Is there anyone with heart enough to take it on? The Lord said, "There are some of those standing here that shall not taste of death at all until they shall have seen the Son of man coming in his kingdom". Well, am I to be amongst those? Have I heart enough for that? Someone is going to be there: it is on the principle of selection. Therefore there is a challenge. It is a great thing to go up there and to see -- whether it be the kingdom of God come in power,

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or the Son of man coming in His kingdom, or the kingdom of God, according to the way the different evangelists present it. It was a wonderful scene! Peter uses beautiful superlatives to convey to us his thoughts as to it. Peter was in the assembly in the power of it, I am sure. So we see the dignity of the persons who form the assembly, and the question is. Have we heart enough for it? In Exodus 24:3, we read, "Moses came and told the people all the words of Jehovah", and they committed themselves, saying, "All the words that Jehovah has said will we do! And Moses wrote all the words of Jehovah, and rose up early in the morning, and built an altar under the mountain, and twelve pillars ..." See how energetic he was! But then he would take them the whole way, so that verse 9 goes back to verses 1 and 2 -- the covenant intervening. Now we are great enough for it, we value it. They go up, and "they saw the God of Israel". Why could they not see Him below? We must learn that we have to move upwards. God comes down and we have to go up. He selects His own domain in which to display Himself, and why not gratify Him by going up?

Rem. If the principle of selection is there on the one hand, there is the principle of committal on the other.

J.T. Exactly, you have heart enough for it as you commit yourself.

O.G. Where do you think the Lord's leading comes in on distinctive occasions? What you are saying applies generally. Is Moses the leader in taking them up?

J.T. Yes, he is a type of Christ here in this respect. See what alacrity he evinces! He rose up early in the morning, and built an altar under the mountain, and twelve pillars according to the twelve tribes of Israel.

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In chapter 34 nobody goes with Moses, and he carries up the tables, having hewed them himself. He goes up and Jehovah comes down and causes His glory to pass before Him; and there the covenant is to be "after the tenor of these words"; it is more the spirit of the covenant. But here in chapter 24 we have the blood of the covenant, and the great general thought of elevation; that God would have His people to go up.

Ques. Does the Lord's service as minister of the sanctuary come in?

J.T. Yes, it fits in here. We are said in Hebrews to be "holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling". Hebrews 3:1: then it says, "Such a high priest became us" -- so great are the heavenly people that they need this priest. Then in chapter 8 the apostle summarises to call attention to the greatness of this Priest. Then he proceeds to speak of the covenant: chapters 8 and 9 and a good part of chapter 10 refer to the covenant, with the same end in view -- that we might draw near.

Ques. What does the coupling of Joshua here with Moses suggest?

J.T. Well, we get the word "attendant" you will notice as to Joshua; this indicates what he represents.

F.I. The three disciples were attendant on the Lord as He went up the mount of transfiguration.

J.T. They were "eye-witnesses of and attendants on the word", see Luke 1:2. Joshua's experience here would no doubt account for his position in the tabernacle later, chapter 33. He represents a spiritual element. The first mention of Joshua is in chapter 17 where he contends with Amalek. It is Christ as the young believer begins to apprehend Him; as soon as he gets the Spirit there is the flesh working in him to militate against the Spirit. That is one stage of the history. But the same Joshua is

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here Moses' attendant. It is not now a question of military service, but of being an attendant on Moses up there. He does not go up with Moses the second time, for chapter 34 brings out the greatness of the mediator by himself. Here Joshua is attending on Moses; if I am attending on the Lord in this wonderful scene of glory, I shall be ready for any other such scene.

F.I. Does that bring in the thought of what the Lord is to us as Head?

J.T. Yes; an attendant up there would see the wonderful working out of wisdom in Christ. Joshua represents one phase of our position, he is the spiritual man; Jehovah calls attention to him later, saying, "a man in whom is the Spirit", and that is to mark all who have part in the assembly. But we learn in chapter 32: 17 that Joshua was subject to failure in spite of his great privileges. This has its solemn voice for us all. It is a reminder to us that we must maintain circumcised ears.

Rem. The thought of attendant would agree with the thought of selection.

J.T. Yes. If the Lord is becoming great in our minds and we are attendants on Him, we will soon discern how wonderful He is in what He is doing. What can we say about what happens up there? What wonderful things were disclosed! How the ascent to the third heaven must have entered into and coloured Paul's ministry afterwards! The angel said to Manoah as to His name "it is wonderful", and He "did wondrously" and then He went up. Judges 13.

L.M. Moses took the book of the covenant and read it in the ears of the people. Luke alone speaks of the Lord touching the ear of the servant of the high priest and healing it, chapter 22: 51. The Lord would secure that, the hearing of ministry.

J.T. Moses first wrote the words of Jehovah, then

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he took the book of the covenant and read it, and they said, "All that Jehovah has said will we do, and obey!" They repeated their committal; first the words were written, verse 4, and then read, verse 7. 1 suppose the idea of writing here is that the matter is fixed: so we are now committed to what is fixed; and they went up and saw the God of Israel.

Rem. We should be concerned as to ministry as to the end the Lord has in it, that we might go up.

J.T. Yes. We come together in the assembly as a public matter, and we partake of the Lord's supper. Then what follows? It is a question now of what the Lord will do. According to Judges 13 the angel who visited Manoah's wife "did wondrously", and He said His name was "wonderful", so that it is now a question of whether we are ready for that, for what the Lord will do for us.

A.E.L. You mean it is really our privilege now to ascend the mountain, not like Moses, alone, but as those who can join the Lord there.

J.T. That is the thought exactly, and it needs power in our souls. Luke does not stress that point: he refers to the memorial, he does not say anything about eating the supper, but Matthew and Mark stress the eating, and both say, "they went out to the mount of Olives", which implies power. Eating gives you a constitution for the assembly. John says the bread is His flesh; John 6:51, but Matthew does not mention the flesh, it is His body; it is a whole idea. Both Matthew and Mark take account of the terrible opposition there is, and we are to develop collectively. We are surrounded by opposition, and we need heart and power to go up.

Ques. Are you distinguishing now between being taken up, and the power within to rise up?

J.T. Yes, I think it is well to raise that point. When the Lord comes we shall not go up by the

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power of the Spirit, the Lord takes us up; but in the assembly we go up by power in our souls. When the Lord comes, He will take every member of the assembly, whatever the formation, but because of the lack of separation and heart every member does not go up as in the assembly now.

Ques. Do you connect the thought of memorial with committal in Luke?

J.T. You get the thought of the ear in Luke -- how divine teaching would help us with a view to going up. These things are vital: if we are to continue down here and be of use to the Lord, there must be the apprehension of the assembly, and the service of it Godward.

F.I. Does it appear here that dignity was added to the seventy in going up? They are spoken of as "seventy elders", then they are spoken of as "the nobles".

J.T. Quite so, they are ennobled; they are called nobles above. The assembly is mentioned in Matthew 16, then the mount, then sonship, then the assembly administratively here on earth. That is the order of the truth. The greatness of the Person who is Head is the great thing to get hold of, and that we are constituted fit to be with Him in the glory. Thus we can have part in the assembly in a heavenly way.

E.C. They both rose up. Moses and the attendant, then follows immediately, "Moses went up to the mountain of God". In the last verse it speaks of Moses going up in relation to the cloud.

J.T. Yes. I apprehend that would be for them to see, to bring out the dignity of the mediator, how he went in. "The appearance of the glory of Jehovah was like a consuming fire on the top of the mountain, before the eyes of the children of Israel. And Moses went into the midst of the cloud, and ascended the mountain". That brings him into greater prominence. I can understand how in after years these seventy

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would be men sought after. They had had experiences others did not have.

A.E.L. They saw the God of Israel.

J.T. Yes, and they are called nobles, and they ate and drank before God and He laid not His hand on them: they were in perfect liberty up there. So that Israel had in their midst certain wealth in these men. That is the idea now in the testimony here, there is wealth in those who understand the assembly and have part in it Godward.

Rem. They saw the God of Israel, and then the glory of Jehovah. Would the latter be a further thought?

J.T. Yes. "The God of Israel" has its own meaning; it is His connection with Israel. The glory of Jehovah is more personal. "The glory of Jehovah abode on mount Sinai, and the cloud covered it six days; and on the seventh day he called to Moses out of the midst of the cloud. And the appearance of the glory of Jehovah was like a consuming fire on the top of the mountain, before the eyes of the children of Israel". I suppose that would be a testimony: then the mediator went in there. It is the top of the mountain, the highest point. The mediator goes into the midst of the cloud and ascends the mountain. Christ "ascended up above all the heavens". Ephesians 4:10.

Ques. Do you suggest that there is in the assembly what answers to these things?

J.T. Exactly. If there is to be a heavenly testimony, there must be persons who have had access there. "It doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is", 1 John 3:2 -- that is literally in the future, but there is a present correspondence -- "as he is, so are we". What we are as His companions enters into the public testimony.

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These men who went up into the mountain. Exodus 24, would be like the five hundred brethren to whom the Lord appeared; they would have a distinctive place. Paul knew them: he says, "some are fallen asleep", but "the greater part remain unto this present", 1 Corinthians 15:6.

Ques. I should like to ask a question as to going up. Is not the object that there might be worship to the Father? It has been said that when we are with Christ as Head all the references would be to the Father. But some have thought that the scripture referred to in Matthew (where Moses and Elias are typical saints and it is said they talked with Him) would perhaps give warrant for addressing the Lord in that intimacy.

J.T. I think it is right to do that at the beginning of the spiritual side of our service. It is quite right that the Lord should be owned and spoken to, but to continue it is the weakness, and to come back to it after the Father is addressed is hardly in keeping with the full thought of the service of God, in which Christ leads as the Minister of the sanctuary. Moses and Elias spoke with the Lord, but then the voice from heaven spoke of Him. Peter and the others were not equal to the scene then, but they were later as seen in the passage read from 2 Peter. Their experience entered into the service of the assembly.

Rem. There is the going up, and then what there is above.

J.T. The God of Israel is the thought; they saw Him and what was under His feet; the Mediator is there, but it is the God of Israel who is spoken of, and He did not lay His hand on them. Typically that would be the Father; God presented to us in this way to be worshipped.

Ques. Is it not important to be in the spirit of readiness and expectancy? We are often perhaps in danger of carrying on the meeting by doing things.

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instead of waiting in the spirit of expectancy for what the Lord might do.

J.T. That suggestion is good: the spiritual ability to be quiet is needed. What is needed very largely, is instruction in regard to this great matter to get the brethren to let their thoughts move on right lines.

C.G. So it is important to have this light governing the service of God, before us.

J.T. Yes. Anyone can see from what has been before us that there is something very great to be gone in for. If we have to admit we do not know much about it, the next thing is to ask the Lord, and He will give us understanding.

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THE GROUND OF GATHERING

Exodus 33:4 - 11; John 12:31 - 33

J.T. The thought I had was that we might consider the ground of gathering, and what that involves is the ground on which the assembly stands in the world. There are two settings in which we can take account of the assembly: first, the light in which it is in the world in testimony, and then the light in which it is in the counsels of God. This passage in Exodus helps as indicating that gathering necessitates separation. Before we can stand in relation to what is of God, we must be detached from what is not of God. We have to come out to principles. I believe many come out to the company that is gathered, instead of to principles; and, consequently, if the company goes wrong, they go wrong -- they do not stand.

Moses on the mount received light as to the mind of God, but when he came down from the mount, the question was as to whether he could connect these thoughts with the people in the camp. Evil was there, and so these thoughts could not be connected with the people in the camp. There had to be separation from evil; and if we stand by the principles, God will bring in the people; of course we have to seek them also. The book of Revelation shows that however few there may be at a given moment, God will have a complete number, and there will be many. God will bring in the people; and so we get the great multitude which no man can number; Revelation 7:9. As to how He will do so and when, we have to wait upon Him.

Ques. What do you mean by standing for principles?

J.T. Moses did that here. He pitched the tabernacle outside the camp. It was not the tabernacle of which he received the pattern on the mount, but it

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represented it in his mind, and he gives it a name; he calls it the "Tent of meeting". This implies that there would be people. He had not a command for what he did as far as we know, but he acted on principle.

Ques. Must you not have persons as well as principles?

J.T. The working out of principles necessitates persons, but the principles necessarily come first in the mind. There was no room in the world for the working out of divine principles, but the Lord says, "I, if I be lifted up, ... will draw all to me". Those that are drawn to Christ become the people in which the principles are worked out.

Ques. Do we not come out to the Lord?

J.T. Of course we do: we are to "go forth to him without the camp, bearing his reproach". Hebrews 13:13. This passage indeed corresponds with what we read in Exodus 33. It is because of the allowance of evil in the camp that you come out. What compels you to leave any association is the allowance of evil in it. It is the working of principles in your soul. The lifting up of Christ shows there was no place for Him here. God had owned the Jewish world, but He had to abandon it because of evil; but now He has another world, and it is brought to pass in testimony now on the principle of gathering. One would not minimize in the least measure the place the Lord should have in our affections. We are to go forth to Him without the camp bearing His reproach -- but bearing His reproach is a principle. If there is love to Jesus, you take account of the world in regard to its treatment of Him, and that is where the principles lie.

It is magnificent to consider Moses coming into the camp in all the light of the mind of God with regard to the people, and then taking the tent and pitching it outside the camp. Separation from evil is one of

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the first divine principles. It is negative, but in this sense the assembly is set up on that principle. It is not a principle peculiar to the assembly, for as we are saying, it is seen in Moses, and also in Abram. God called Abram out. When we come out, the Lord gives indications by which we are guided. Directly Israel began to move, the glory came down -- there was guidance. Moses anticipated all this here, as we see it later in Numbers, when he called the tabernacle the "Tent of meeting". He could not have had in his mind how many would come. His concern was to act for God, and in doing so he did the best thing for the people; he had faith, so he called it the "Tent of meeting". If you come out on these principles, there is room for the working out of the features of the assembly.

Ques. How does the light of purpose affect the position of separation?

J.T. I do not think that you come into the light of the assembly according to purpose, until you are in the light of it as apart from the world on moral lines here upon earth. The assembly is founded on the judgment of evil. The original word for assembly signifies that it is formed of a people "called out"; and this is really because of evil in that out of which it is called. The assembly viewed in the light of divine purpose is not in connection with evil, it has no past history of evil; but in the assembly as called out of the world, evil is recognized as existing, but it is rendered ineffective by the presence of the Holy Spirit; Leviticus 23:17. "He that sanctifies and those sanctified are all of one" -- that is the assembly viewed in the light of purpose. It was a wonderful triumph of God to have a company, and sin recognized as there but with no power to act. This side of the truth is contemplated in the epistles to the Corinthians, but Hebrews 2:11 refers to the heavenly side and underlies Colossians and Ephesians.

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Ques. Is it the idea you have of purpose that shapes your course first?

J.T. I think so; you take heavenly ground as anticipatively there, but as actually down here, we recognize that leaven is in us individually, but it should not have any power. How can you arrive at the divine thought as to the assembly unless there is separation from evil?

Ques. Must we not see something on the side of purpose before we separate from evil?

J.T. As judging sin I am on the moral line, worked out in Romans, especially chapters 1 to 7; I reach holiness. It is a question of what God is in this connection: "Be ye holy for I am holy". They were called out from Egypt to go to Canaan, but then separation from evil is that God may have a dwelling-place here where evil is recognized; He dwells here in spite of this.

Ques. Why does this separation take place at Horeb?

J.T. Because of the sin that occurred there. They had worshipped the calf there. It was the spot at which the service of God was to be commenced. It is important to distinguish between going to heaven, and the question of God's tabernacle. The former renders you a pilgrim and a stranger; but when it is a question of God's tabernacle, that is another thing; evil has to be faced and judged, not only in myself but as it is around me. You do not simply judge the evil and stay in the association; you leave the association because evil is allowed there. It pleases God to leave the assembly down here as a provisional order of things, as that in which He sets forth His order as a testimony to what is coming. It is what you get in Numbers -- it is not a question of the land, but of what God has here now. Exodus is the saints taken out of the world as such and set in relation to the tabernacle on the ground of the

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covenant. Numbers is the people in relation to the order of God publicly. Leviticus is occupied with the priesthood, and approach to God. In Deuteronomy it is a question simply of God and the people -- they are His sons -- there is very little about the tabernacle or the priesthood in Deuteronomy.

Ques. Does the additional covenant given to Israel in Deuteronomy 29:1, supersede the first, or is it a development of it?

J.T. It is "besides the covenant that he made with them in Horeb", but it is also a development, it is to prepare us for the land. In Deuteronomy the expression "As the Lord commanded Moses" is not prominent as it is earlier -- the point is what Moses said or taught. Deuteronomy is almost headship, although this properly attaches to David as a type. Moses is preparing the people for the land according to the wisdom he had. Christianity initially was marked by the recognition of authority. The believers continued steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship. It was a question not only of what was taught but of the authority of the apostles. But when you come on to spiritual growth in the saints, it is Christ as Head. Joshua is a type of Christ as the spiritual military Leader of the saints. Moses represented the authority of God right up to the banks of the Jordan. David is a type of Christ as Head -- in wisdom arranging the service of God, etc.

Ques. In what way can we leave the camp now?

J.T. 2 Timothy 2 instructs as to this. You withdraw from unrighteousness, today largely seen in organized religion. The camp applies to Judaism primarily, but there is today organized religion on the earth which corresponds to the camp, and you must go forth to Christ outside the camp. The assembly and the breaking of bread stood in relation to Judaism at the beginning, and Judaism was a divinely-organized system, but notwithstanding the

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grace shown, as seen in Acts, persecuting hatred to Christ and the assembly became manifest: thus there was nothing for the faithful to do but to leave it -- to go outside the camp. There is no room for the working out of assembly principles in organized religion; but when you find two or three loving one another, there is room for the development of the assembly. The sum of the law is: "Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself", and you have there the thought of local responsibility. It is your neighbour you have to love; your brother might live very far away but he would not be your neighbour. It is the one beside you that tests you. That is where the working out of assembly principles comes in, and if that is not answered, you cannot have the principles of the assembly. You may have the principles as a matter of light, but you want material -- those with whom you can work them out.

Fellowship not only supposes that evil in the ordinary sense is here, but that murder is here. It is the fellowship of Christ's death.

It is very interesting to see how the collective thought is introduced in John's gospel; the individual thought runs on to chapter 9. In chapter 10, He gathers the sheep together; in chapter 11, He dies to gather together in one the children of God.

As a sheep, men despise you and take advantage of you, just as they did with Christ; they will take away your wool. But you accept the killing -- and it is "all the day long". "For thy sake we are killed all the day long". When you come to the thought of children of God, you are hated, because you exhibit the nature of God; the children of God are marked by righteousness and love. In John 12, you get a universal thought, "I, if I be lifted up ... will draw all to me". It is the kind of death He died; and it is on the ground of that He is a centre of gathering for the whole world.

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ASSEMBLY AFFECTIONS

Proverbs 31:10; Revelation 19:7

I have before me to say a little about assembly affections, believing that the Lord is working to bring about such affections so that the wife feature of the assembly may appear before Him.

In referring to this book of Proverbs it may be of service that we should be reminded of the nature of the Old Testament and of the ministry of the prophets, lest we should be in any way misled as to their apprehension of the truth. They did not know as much as we are likely to accredit them with. Peter tells us "holy men of God spake under the power of the Holy Spirit" and that they searched "what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ which was in them pointed out, testifying before of the sufferings which belonged to Christ, and the glories after these". "Unto whom", it says, "it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you". Mark you they are the same things which are now reported to you "by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven", and then he adds "which things the angels desire to look into". The prophets desired to look into them and God revealed to them that the things they ministered were not for themselves -- they were for us. It was the Holy Spirit by whom they spake, and so the things were spoken of anticipatively; they were spoken in view of Christ coming in flesh.

This book anticipates the assembly: not that the speaker in this chapter could open up and tell us what it meant. He could not. It was revealed to him that the things he ministered were for the future,

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even for us; and so he is made to say here by the Spirit, "Who can find a woman of worth?" The same writer in the book of Ecclesiastes says "One man among a thousand have I found; but a woman among all those have I not found", chapter 7: 28. Now in a way, the book of Ecclesiastes does not require the woman, because it is the preacher who speaks and the theme for the preacher is the Man. If you have found a Man you can preach. Thank God, preaching goes on in the world by many who have no knowledge of the assembly at all, but they have some knowledge of Christ, and so they can preach, for preaching is about Christ; as it is said "the gospel of God ... concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; and declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead". So that in the Man we have the subject of the preaching, but then the book of Proverbs is the counterpart of the book of Ecclesiastes; and the more you become acquainted with Christ as the subject of the preaching the more will be the necessity for the woman to appear. "It is not good", God says, "that the man should be alone". God brought the animals to Adam to be named and among them there was not found one his like. Doubtless they exhibited remarkable variety of instinct and intelligence, but he found no helpmate, his like: and so God would provide one; "I will make him a helpmate, his like". Adam, as he saw a lion coming to him, or a sheep, would see nothing like himself. He had intelligence to discern the characteristics of each, for whatever name he gave to a creature that was its name. God altered nothing. But it says, "as for Adam he found no helpmate, his like". So. God caused a "deep sleep to fall upon Man; and he slept. And he took one of his ribs ... and built the rib ... into a woman,

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and brought her to Man". This was the supreme test of his intelligence. Where did she come from? He says, "This time it is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; this shall be called Woman, because this was taken out of a man". It was a test of his intelligence, and he answered to the test. The woman is there. Now that is what was in my mind; that the features of Christ should be reproduced femininely -- that there should be something for Christ answering to Himself, for that is the necessity. One would speak with reverence of the necessity of His love -- the necessity of the love of Christ.

Now the Spirit of God is here with that in view: He is here in relation to the necessities of the love of Christ. You will remember how Abraham instructed his servant, the eldest in his house, to take a wife for his son Isaac. Sometimes we call him Eliezer, but Scripture says, "his servant, the eldest of his house, who ruled over all that he had". Abraham already had light as to Rebekah for after he had offered up Isaac it says that he returned to his young men and went with them to Beersheba and dwelt there: and it was told him that sons had been born to his brother Nahor, one of whom was Bethuel, who begot Rebekah. But now she is needed, and the servant has to find her -- to select her by certain qualities. Abraham might have given him the name of her father and sent his servant there. No, that is not the divine way. We have to find the bride: the wife is to be found by certain traits.

When the disciples said, "Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?" the Lord could have told them the street and the number in it and the name of the man who owned the house, but, He says, "Go into the city". Divine things come before our spiritual intelligence, hence he says, "Go ye into the city and there shall meet you a man bearing a pitcher of water; follow him". You have

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to look for him: it is a question of having your eyes opened. I refer to that to indicate the principles upon which divine things are discovered, that we have spiritual intelligence. I do not refer to the Spirit Himself, but to the principles upon which divine things are here -- "There shall meet you a man".

There may be a believer who would love to be where Christ is, where He eats the passover with His disciples, who would love to find that place. I would suggest to you the necessity for spiritual insight and alertness. The Lord says, "Go ye into the city and there shall meet you a man bearing a pitcher of water; follow him"; that is the thought.

Now the servant is the chief ruler in Abraham's house and he is to select the bride, the wife of Isaac, by certain traits. I want to speak of one or two scriptures so that we might see the traits which are proper to the assembly as the antitype of Rebekah. The Lord is looking for them: the Holy Spirit is looking for them; in all His dealings with us He has these traits in view. Moses said, "Let the beauty of the Lord our God be upon us". Psalm 90:17. In Psalm 45 the psalmist delighting to speak about the king says, "Upon thy right hand doth stand the queen in gold of Ophir": that is what I would call the abstract idea: and I am persuaded that we shall never arrive at an understanding of the assembly unless we see it in that abstract way -- that is as in the counsels of God. In the parables of the kingdom the Lord presents Himself as a merchant seeking goodly pearls who when he had found one pearl of great price went and sold all that he had, and bought it. The Lord found the assembly, but then it was not yet the concrete thing. It could not be until the Holy Spirit came down, but He saw the thing: and so it says, "Upon thy right hand doth stand the queen" -- the counterpart of the king.

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The question is how have we to reach that? For it refers to us. We have to learn to take account of things in the abstract, and if so, we have to begin with the ideal wife, with what God has in view, what I have called the abstract assembly. Isaac must have a bride, and Christ must have the assembly. Well, the believer begins thus. The light of the gospel comes: and what is that light? It is the light of a Man. If the gospel is rightly presented to your soul it is a Man that is presented to you. "Come see a man". I have no doubt the woman at Sychar is representative of the preaching in the latter days. She is not the official preacher -- she speaks of what she had discovered. "Come see a man ... is not this the Christ?" The thought is put into the soul, and nothing is more important than that preachers should present Christ. It is one man among a thousand; and that is all you want: one Man to preach about.

In chapter 30 of this book, the speaker in his enquiry as to who hath established all the ends of the earth says, "What is his name and what is his son's name if thou canst tell?" so that the preacher has a Man, but what is His name? Preachers should be able to tell what His name is. If you begin to tell the name of Christ you have a wonderful theme. The apostle Paul, as you will remember, as yet an unofficial preacher in the city of Damascus, entered the synagogue, and preached "Jesus, that he is the Son of God". It was it seems his first sermon; but he told them His name. The eunuch said, "Of whom speaketh the prophet this?" The prophet had spoken about a Man -- a wonderful delineation of Christ. Isaiah could not have explained his 53rd chapter, nevertheless he saw it, and John says, "These things said Esaias when he saw his glory and spake of him". Hence Philip announces Jesus and you may be sure he spoke about the name.

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Paul tells us later that God was pleased "to reveal his Son in me, that I may announce him as glad tidings among the nations". He made Him known in his soul. So the preacher can tell the name of the Man and the Man becomes attractive to the soul. The apostle himself sets the example: he says, "The Son of God, who has loved me and given himself for me". Galatians 2:20. Think of one who loves you! I do not know of anything that comes to one's soul more forcibly than this. He loved me! As Paul says again in Romans, "Destroy not him with thy meat for whom Christ has died". That is what the Son of God is: He knows you; He died for you.

Now the presentation of Christ in that way brings about affection. We have been speaking of the eunuch, and I have no doubt he is the representative believer. We have been seeing how he was an individual object with God. He is traversing the desert, and presently a man joins his chariot as if he had descended from heaven -- it really was so in principle! The eunuch is reading the book of Isaiah the prophet, and Philip says, "Understandest thou what thou readest?" A voice from heaven is a voice to which everyone of us should pay attention. I am afraid there is too little reading of the Scriptures. Nothing, no amount of ministry, will take the place of the reading of the Scriptures -- the private or individual reading of the Scriptures, and the family reading of the Scriptures. If these are neglected you will not be much attracted to Christ; think what a mine of wealth we have in the Scriptures! And so Philip enquires, "Understandest thou what thou readest?" What is the good of reading if I do not understand? but I do urge the importance of reading. Daniel says, "I understand by books". Mark that! By books he means the inspired books. If we read with the understanding we shall get light from God as to any scripture. Christ would be before the soul

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for "they are they which testify of me", as He said. The eunuch answered Philip: "How can I, except some man should guide me?" and Philip began at the same scripture, and preached to him Jesus. Then the eunuch says, "Here is water". This man as it were came from above to him and announced Jesus, so that he says, "Here is water, what doth hinder me to be baptised?" He accepts that way out of the world, and then he goes on his way rejoicing, and Philip is caught away, as if indeed, he were a heavenly visitor. The scene is peculiarly a spiritual one.

There are many who love the Lord but who are still undeveloped in their affections. Some one has said that orphans do not develop the same affection as others, and that motherless children may be at a disadvantage in this respect. We read in Canticles, "we have a little sister, and she hath no breasts"; it is not implied that she did not have love, but the point is she had not developed what she had, and therefore she did not come under the notice of Solomon. But the bride says, "I am a wall, and my breasts like towers; then was I in his eyes as one that findeth peace". It is as if we are set down together in the light of the love of Christ. There is one brother there it may be in whom there is not a movement. He breaks bread like the rest, takes part physically, but with no spiritual response. There cannot be a doubt but that he loves Christ, but what about development? The Lord is set for the development of our affections, so that the breasts are like towers. That is what I have in mind, that there might be a development of assembly affections in the saints.

You may say, what do you mean by assembly affections? It may be some one here has some love for the Lord in a personal way, but now, you enquire, How am I to love assembly-wise? That is an interesting question, because that is what the Lord wants.

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He loves to have your personal affections: but what about loving assembly-wise? The Lord's supper is to teach us how to develop assembly affections. And I will tell you how it comes about. If you love Christ you will also love your brother. It may be that you have only learned to love your neighbour -- very good if you have! It is a triumph if one can maintain love for a neighbour, day in and day out. But suppose you do love him -- you can love with him. If you have learned to love him you can learn to love with him, that is, two of you can learn to love the same object. That is simple and that is what I understand by assembly affections, and the circle becomes wider and wider until what is spoken of in the epistle to the Colossians is reached, that is love to all the saints, and hence I understand and enjoy what we have in that epistle: "quickened together with him". If I am quickened with Christ, I want all the saints quickened with Christ; and if, as in Ephesians, I am raised up and made to sit together in heavenly places in Christ, I want the saints there too.

That is how I understand the Lord would develop assembly affection. Hence the one who has the breasts like towers, says, "We have a little sister, and she hath no breasts". She wants to have her little sister with her. She could teach her how to love, and it is a great opportunity for us of teaching one another how to love. God teaches us. "Ye yourselves", the apostle says, "are taught of God to love one another", and it is in this constant exercise amongst the saints of God that the Lord develops assembly affection. He sees the thing permeating the company, and that is what He is looking for.

It is that which the Spirit of God has in view in this last chapter of Proverbs. "Her price is far above rubies; the heart of her husband doth safely trust in her". If the Lord is confiding in the assembly it is because He loves her. He will not entrust anything

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to one who does not love Him. Love is the thing. The chapter gives a prophetic view of the assembly; it is based on what the Spirit would provide as the result of the death of Christ. So we read in Revelation 19 that "the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready" -- an occasion of great joy. She has done it herself; that is the thing. What are we doing in regard of Christ's coming, and the marriage? It is not the bride in this chapter, it is the "wife", because it refers to what we are to Christ in the time of His rejection; and it is the marriage of the Lamb -- the suffering one. The next chapter gives us the glory of the assembly in display, but the point in chapter 19 is that she is the wife -- His confidante, the one in whom His heart can safely confide. Can anything be more enticing to the heart than that the Lord can confide in her in His absence? Here it is simply the wife, and she has made herself ready; she has put on such garments as are becoming; to her it is granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white. It is not here a gorgeous display of colours. Colours in Scripture have reference to varieties of public glory. They are for display. Whiteness is purity; it is essential purity; that which is known in private. The fine linen is the "righteousnesses of the saints". So the king has a queen, but how do the saints come to the good of the position? Well, the first thing is, "Hearken. O daughter, and consider, and incline thine ear; forget also thine own people, and thy father's house, so shall the king greatly desire thy beauty". The Lord sees His own beauty taking form in you, and He desires it. In the Psalm it goes on to say, "The king's daughter is all glorious within; her clothing is of wrought gold: She shall be brought unto the king in raiment of needlework". Needlework is one stitch after another; it is not a power loom; it is not machine work. Christendom is full of machine work: things are turned out in bulk but that is not the

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divine way. Fine linen is the righteousnesses all put together divinely one stitch after another. It is the daily thing, the work of the Spirit through the exercises of the saints. She is all glorious within. "Within" has reference to the king's palace; it is within His apartments; there is not a discrepancy -- she is in accord with that palace. One thinks of His "unrebuking gaze" -- lovely thought! He sees her in His own perfection so that His heart is perfectly at rest.

We learn in part, and we can only minister in part; but one's thought is to offer a suggestion, so that we may have it before us that the Lord is seeking to produce assembly affections and to bring about the ability to love together. It is thus that the assembly is formed; so it says, "His wife hath made herself ready".

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THE SON KNOWN IN GOD'S HOUSE

Hebrews 3:1 - 7; Hebrews 10:21 - 25

J.T. These scriptures present the Lord to us as He is to be known in the house of God. The subject will necessitate reference to other scriptures in the gospels, besides these passages in the epistle to the Hebrews. I thought it would be good to consider the Lord's relation to the house -- how He is to be known in it. Attention has been called in recent years to the Lord's coming to us, but I think perhaps we limit it too much to certain occasions, and do not sufficiently recognize that His movements in the house are very general.

Rem. You mean that not only on Lord's day morning, but in other meetings of His people, the Lord is present?

J.T. That is what I was thinking exactly. The Lord is presented in Hebrews 3 as the Builder of the house.

Rem. And as the One over it, Son over His house.

J.T. That is over God's house. Acts 20 gives us the house as set up by Paul, and the consideration of that chapter would promote conditions such as the Lord could move in, and which are in keeping with Himself. The chapter begins with the apostle, who represented the Lord, embracing the saints at Ephesus, and it ends with the elders of the assembly at Ephesus embracing him; that is to say, there were established relations of affection between the Lord and the assembly; not only affection on His side but on theirs also. I think in that way, conditions were set up which enabled the Lord to come in and operate, and to move in their midst; conditions in which He would be known as over the house; known in His dignity first as Son, and then as being in the liberty involved in that relation.

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Ques. Do you distinguish between the company of Christ in the house on the line of priestly service and on the line of affection?

J.T. Well, the two relations in which He is presented in these passages are sonship and priesthood. He is over the house as Son, and in that capacity He is necessarily Head. I do not say that is developed in the passage, nor is it developed in Hebrews. The first thing is to see that He has built the house, and as having built it, He is over it, which I apprehend is His general relation to the house, as Solomon, having built the house was over it; and then He is Priest, "a great Priest", over it to the end that saints might draw near to God.

Rem. I was thinking whether the service of Christ on those lines was necessary to His service as Head.

J.T. Headship comes in, but I was thinking more of His position in the house and the way saints apprehend Him, and what resources we have in Him. The gospel of Matthew presents instances in which the Lord took up an attitude in which He could be approached by His disciples, and in which His disciples approached Him; for instance, in Matthew 5 He ascended a mountain, "and when he was set, his disciples came unto him". I think if we saw the Lord's position in the house, as having built it, and being Son over it, we would take advantage of the door open to us to come to Him, and avail ourselves of the opportunities offered of coming to Him. We read, "having sat down, his disciples came to him; and, having opened his mouth he taught them". Then throughout the gospel you find the positions in the house, all of which taken together are intended to convey to us what obtains now in a spiritual way; but I do not think we shall understand what is available in a spiritual way now, unless we see how the Lord was to be known when He was here among His disciples. In Acts 1 reference is made to the

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time when "the Lord Jesus came in and went out among us, beginning from the baptism of John until the day in which he was taken up from us". During all that period He had gone in and out among them. It is in the understanding of what that means that we get what obtains now in a spiritual way, for He still comes in and goes out amongst us, and the house is the sphere of His movements. Matthew begins by presenting Christ in the house; chapter 2: 11. He is in the house when the wise men come. In chapter 4 He is seen as dwelling in Capernaum, verse 13. There He was dwelling among them. So throughout the gospel you find references to His being in the house. In chapter 13: 36. He is in the house. He had been in the boat on the sea, speaking to the crowds many things in parables, but He went into the house deliberately, and His disciples came to Him, and in the house there is the opening up of His mind as to the assembly.

Ques. Would that be suggested by the ark of the covenant being put into the temple?

J.T. I think the ark represents Christ as the One by whom God effects everything -- the resource of God.

Rem. There is a way in which the Lord may be known in communion; but in the way you are seeking to present it, He is to be known in a peculiar way in the house.

J.T. The ark presents one side; Moses and Aaron present the other side. Moses as a servant maintained the authority of God, the rights of God in the house; Aaron was priest, and represented the service of Christ in supporting the saints. Whether it be the service of Moses over the house, or of Aaron -- the antitype of both is for us in the Lord.

Ques. In referring to the Lord dwelling in Capernaum, have you any thought with regard to the saints' houses today? or is it more as to the house of God?

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J.T. John says, "the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us". The Lord became known among the disciples; it was wonderful grace that He should come so near and in this familiar way.

Ques. Do you mean that the study of the gospel of Matthew would help us in regard of the house of God?

J.T. Yes. His various connections with houses help as to this. We have to understand how He comes in and goes out among us.

Ques. Are we to understand that a company like this sets forth the Lord coming in and going out? Could we look upon this company as the house of God?

J.T. We are peculiarly now in a position to realize the Lord's gracious service. We were speaking, however, of the matter in a more general way, but the Lord does come in on these occasions. The Lord is over the house, and He has His own way of coming in and helping, and making Himself known. I believe by the careful study of the gospels, we come to understand how He comes in and goes out amongst us.

Ques. Are you speaking now of the house as the saints together, or in a general way?

J.T. In a general way. The house exists always; it is not dependent upon our being convened, and it is never connected with a local company. The house of God is a general thought, including all the saints everywhere, and the Lord is always active in it -- it may be at times to rebuke or convict, but He is always active in it.

Rem. You referred at first to the apostle and the elders at Ephesus: do I understand He is over the house in affection, and is thus accessible? We are drawn to Him.

J.T. That is my thought exactly. Acts 20 sets out the conditions. You get embracing mentioned three

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times in that chapter. It is the love sphere. When the apostle came to Troas. Luke says, "The first day of the week, we being assembled to break bread". He tells us, however, before he uses that expression that certain brethren were present. Europeans and Asiatics -- a remarkable meeting! It brings out one great feature of the house of God -- its universal character. Brethren are apt to disregard local responsibilities, or to make themselves too local, restricting themselves to their districts. Here were brethren from many parts on that first day of the week, and they all sat down together; and Luke, the writer, was there too, "we being assembled to break bread". Thus there were conditions there that suggested the house.

Rem. I am afraid we have looked upon the house more as the dwelling place of God, overlooking the position of Christ as being Son over it. If it is the dwelling place of God, all that God is should be expressed there, and as Son, Christ would bring that about.

J.T. Yes; He would bring in what is of God, He would represent God.

Ques. Do you mean to bring in affections for all the saints in a general way?

J.T. Yes, to take account of the house in that way enlarges your view, your exercises and your affections; the Lord is over it, and His operations are in it, so that He is available. It says, they "came to him".

Ques. What is the point in the faithfulness, verse 2?

J.T. I think it is as the Apostle and High Priest of our confession He is faithful. Is it not a thought to encourage us, the Apostle and High Priest of our confession? Moses is brought forward as having been faithful to God, "faithful in all his house". The consideration of his service would help us to see the

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faithful service of the Lord in maintaining us here and in maintaining the service of God.

Ques. Do you contrast the Lord going in and out and the Spirit dwelling?

J.T. Yes, the Holy Spirit is here personally -- sent down from heaven; and so you have "as says the Holy Spirit" in verse 7 of our chapter.

Ques. Is this going in and out a special service of the Lord?

J.T. Yes, and if we had eyes to see, we should see Him in His movements; what He is doing, and where He is moving.

Ques. Do we not experience the service of Christ in this regard in a very special way on Lord's day morning?

J.T. Yes, but He is known there more as Head: that is where headship comes in.

Rem. I was wondering whether the early part of the meeting is not the peculiar service of Christ.

J.T. Coming together we recognize the Lord, we begin with the Lord; it is the Lord's supper, it is the Lord's day, but the "first day of the week", I think, is specially connected with Paul's ministry, and is on a different line from that of the Lord's day. When the assembly was set up, the Holy Spirit brought in the first day of the week in Acts 20, and Paul brings it in in writing to the Corinthians, chapter 16. It would not fit into the transitional period. We have the breaking of bread, in Acts 2, but there it is not strictly in connection with the assembly. They broke bread "in the house"; but when you have the assembly set up under Paul, you have the first day of the week, because the assembly involves a wholly new order of things, not a transitional period.

Ques. What difference do you make between the first day of the week and the Lord's day?

J.T. The first day of the week is the beginning of a new order of things. The Lord is going forth; the

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morning has dawned. It is not the termination of a period, of what has been before, but a new morning has dawned -- the first day of the week.

Rem. It takes in the whole extent of the assembly period.

J.T. And links us on with eternity.

Ques. Do you mean that the Lord's day suggests a period that will come to an end?

J.T. It refers to His authority, the Lord's day and the Lord's supper run together.

Rem. The first day then would be the eighth day with regard to resurrection and a new order of things, and going on into eternity.

J.T. But the eighth day has reference to previous days; the first day has no reference to anything before it at all.

Rem. It is the assembly without a previous history.

J.T. Yes, that is the idea.

Ques. The 20th of John?

J.T. Yes. The Holy Spirit would lead us into an eternal order of things. The Spirit's power opens "the heavenly door". There you are connected with a heavenly order of things to which the seven days of the week have no reference. We are led back to what is before the world, the wisdom which "God had predetermined before the ages for our glory".

Rem. The expression "the Lord's day" only occurs in the 1st of Revelation -- the dominical day. It is the same word as the dominical supper. The word only occurs in these two connections.

J.T. You feel the force of them in connection with a world of evil here, but the first day is another thing.

Rem. I think what you are saying about the first day is very helpful in connection with the assembly, as being the introduction of an entirely new order of things.

J.T. The assembly is connected with the first day of the week. It is an eternal thought. It is always

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there, and we are always in it, and always of it. The house of God is a living reality, and connected with a wholly new order of things.

Rem. The sheet that came down from heaven goes up to heaven. Acts 10 suggests a vessel fitted to go up to heaven.

J.T. There is a divine embrace; the apostle embraces the saints, and then they embrace him. Between those embraces you have the first day of the week, the breaking of bread, and Paul's ministry.

Ques. Would the breaking of bread introduce to that which is set forth in the first day?

J.T. I think it does. I think that is the idea, you go in for that which is eternal. The question is, are we lovable? Are we lovable enough to go to heaven? Am I such that God can love me without reserve?

Rem. He also embraced Eutychus -- the one who had fallen.

J.T. I think that fits in with the assembly historically. The love of God comes in for restoration. The boy is made to live; what is living is revived and maintained in that way.

Ques. Does the faithfulness of the Son come in in connection with our being made lovable?

J.T. Yes, it does. A great many are occupied with the thought of being loved, but the question is, am I lovable? I know God loves me, but I ought not to be content with that. The question is, am I lovable?

Ques. Is it not in connection with His faithfulness that He is appointed. What is He appointed for?

J.T. He is the Apostle and High Priest of our confession; He is faithful in maintaining that. He is faithful in the way He has preserved things for God and He will continue to do it too. John says, "He himself knew what he would do". It is the faithfulness

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that marks the Lord in God's assembly -- the house of God -- in maintaining it here from the very outset. We may reckon on His faithfulness. I suppose Peter may be taken to illustrate the faithfulness of the Lord in the way He restores us.

Rem. What you were referring to in prayer is the way the Lord takes to make us lovable, John 13. So the consideration of God's house is a very serious one, whilst a very blessed one. Paul writes to Timothy as to how one ought to behave oneself in God's house. As to being lovable, there must be the bearing suitable to the house of God.

J.T. We see there how He comes in and goes out -- the way He does things.

Ques. Do you mean that we should be on the alert to take account of His activities at all times?

J.T. If we do not we miss it. Thomas was absent and he missed a wonderful opportunity. If we are slothful and neglectful, we miss things. The Lord goes on.

The exercise should be that we might take account of His activities. The apostle says to Timothy, thou hast followed up my teaching, conduct, purpose. If you are with God it is remarkable how things come to you, so that you know what the Lord is doing, and you are with Him in it. Without holiness no man shall see the Lord; having holiness we see the Lord in His movements.

Rem. It is humbling to us if the Lord is active, and we do not discover it.

J.T. It is.

Rem. Are there activities of the Lord apart from our coming together?

J.T. There may be a movement in the most out-of-the-way place, and it may mean much generally. The movement for recovery in the last century began in a very despised country -- Ireland. The movements of the Lord in Matthew, after He rose, centred

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in Galilee; those recorded in Luke were in Jerusalem; so in John; the Lord in that way maintains a balance. If He intends to check a tendency to metropolitanism in a district, He will move far away from it. That movement will test us, but it is the Lord's doing. He is free, He is over the house, and the house embraces all the saints. It ought to give us breadth of interests as well as breadth of outlook.

Ques. Is His faithfulness in the house to maintain the pleasure of God there?

J.T. Exactly. These movements of the Lord are intensely interesting. He is not going to give up. "He himself knew what he would do". He always keeps a reserve. He says to Peter, "If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?" His always having a reserve keeps us waiting, keeps us exercised, lest we may be shelved. If He is faithful, He will not brook any unfaithfulness in me. He is moving on to an end, and if we are not with Him, He will pass by and take up others.

Rem. I wonder if the Lord as described in Revelation, as walking in the midst of the candlesticks, would correspond with this.

J.T. It does in the way of discipline. There He is over the profession, and He maintains His judicial character.

Rem. You do not mean a literal "in and out".

J.T. He has His own way of doing it.

Rem. John 13 would give us the other side of His activities. His service.

J.T. Yes; but not in government, nor in discipline, but in love. Revelation 2 is discipline on account of declension.

Ques. What is the distinctive character of the service of Christ in Hebrews?

J.T. Hebrews is to show what the saints have. We have this One -- the Son over the house: He is faithful in it. He is not a servant in it here, but the Son.

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Ques. Do you connect the two scriptures in Hebrews with the two thoughts you have spoken of in Acts? The apostle in the first, and the High Priest in the second. The thought of embracing us would encourage us to draw near to Him.

J.T. I think the embrace is like the love of Christ and what He is to us; love made effective, brought near to us -- the love of God shed abroad in our hearts.

Rem. The Son would make effective the love of God in the house so that we should delight to draw near.

J.T. So in chapter 10 we do draw near. He supports us in drawing near. He has made the love known to us, and now He supports us in it. As Son He is on God's side: as great Priest He is on our side, bringing us in all the excellency and dignity in which we are set up as knowing the love of God.

Ques. Would you say we become tested as to how much we appreciate the One who has brought the revelation to us?

J.T. The Son alone can make God known to us. He fills the house with the love of God.

Rem. And He would remove every shade of fear or misgiving.

J.T. "Perfect love casteth out fear". He is on our side too. He is not said to be the High Priest in chapter 10, but the great Priest, and He gives us to know He is on our side. We come to realize the dignity of our position with God. Chapter 7 fits us for that side, "Such an high priest became us", then in chapter 10 He is over the house of God; He is the great Priest, and we draw near to God in the understanding of that.

Ques. What difference do you make between "high" and "great"?

J.T. I think "great" is somewhat of a moral

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thought; "high" is chief and would be more official. He makes you conscious you are great enough to go in. He is "great" in both chapters. In chapter 7: 26 "high" is elevation.

Ques. Would the "high priest" stand connected with infirmities?

J.T. It is connected in chapter 4 with the throne of grace. In the 10th it is not exactly drawing near to the throne of grace, but drawing near to God. We are introduced into the divine presence itself, and introduced in such wise that there is no disparity between Christ and us.

Ques. Would you limit that to when we are gathered together?

J.T. Oh, no. There is the house of God, and One over it available to maintain us in it. Should this not create a desire in us, like that of David, to dwell in the courts for ever? Think of what we are brought into. The Son comes in according to John 20 and stands in the midst; it was as if He had gone up to heaven and come down again. He had sent the message, "I ascend", and Mary goes and tells them; now He comes to them as if He came down again, and says, "As my Father hath sent me, even so send I you", and He breathes into them. Drawing near to God is so great in itself that we feel not only that we need the fitness to do so, but also the support of the Priest.

Ques. Is that how the great Priest becomes endeared to our hearts?

Rem. The effect of His service as Son is that we love because He has loved us.

J.T. I think that is it. The end of Acts 20, the more you consider it, is very much like drawing near. The embracing on the part of the elders was the appreciation of what was there -- what the apostle represented.

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Ques. Does Philippians 4 cover what you have been saying, "The Lord is near"?

J.T. I think so. He is certainly near when we seek to draw near to God. If Satan can, he will hinder us from doing it, but the great Priest is there to support us.

Ques. Do not the verses in John 14 show how He can come in without our being gathered together?

J.T. When He says, "We will come to him", and in Revelation 3, "I stand at the door and am knocking", how many of us know about that movement? I think that is what the Lord is doing constantly today -- knocking at the doors of His people. "If any one hear my voice and open the door, I will come in unto him and sup with him, and he with me". He has His own place to bring them to.

Rem. In the measure in which we know something of these personal manifestations we would appreciate the privilege of having that place all the more.

J.T. You constantly revert back to the first day of the week; that day is the beginning of things. What happened then? Jesus came and stood in the midst; on that day He was active in many places.

Rem. "Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together".

J.T. I think that follows on. If you draw near to God, you want to draw near to the saints. This drawing near to God is not drawing near in the sense of need, but in the sense of what God is, tasting the rest, and peace, and joy of His presence.

Rem. It is a great thing to get an outlook, not looking at things connected with ourselves simply as individuals, but in relation to all.

J.T. It is in relation to the house; the Lord never gives that up. The supping with Him is in the house.

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Ques. Would you say a word on "Let us hold fast the confession of the hope unwavering"?

J.T. The hope involves going in to God; that is what is to be held fast. It is the confession of the hope. The word "confession" is prominent in Hebrews. Christ is the Apostle and High Priest of our confession. He brought in the thing, and set it up, and maintains it: we hold it fast.

Ques. What is the hope?

J.T. It is a general thought in Hebrews. "Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul". I think you hold fast to the heavenly calling of the saints.

Ques. How would you connect the verse "By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually", with what we have been saying?

J.T. That is by the Priest -- by Him as Priest.

Ques. But you would not confine offering the sacrifice to when we are actually gathered together?

J.T. Certainly not; if you give thanks for your food, it is by Him. This question of confession enters into pretty nearly every detail of everyday life.

Ques. Is there not a danger of limiting our Christianity too much to gathering together?

J.T. One would not like to belittle our gathering together, but in everyday life we come under the service of Christ, and get the benefit of His movements.

Rem. The thought of the breaking of bread conveys a greater thought than the thought of the Lord's supper.

J.T. I did not say that. I spoke of the Lord's day and the first day of the week. The breaking of bread brings in the Lord personally, it is what He did, and speaks of what He is to the assembly. The Lord's supper is connected with testimony here. I do not say they are the same on account of the expression "As often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye

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do show the Lord's death till he come" -- we announce the Lord's death, that is connected with the confession. The breaking of bread brings Him in amongst us, so that we apprehend Him in relation to the assembly as Head.

Rem. I was wondering if the Lord's supper connects itself with the state of things in which we are found, and the first day of the week carries us into that which is entirely new.

J.T. I would connect the Lord's supper with testimony here.

Ques. Is it more the thought of the public position?

J.T. I think it is.

Rem. The breaking of bread is more the inner thing.

J.T. What He is to us.

Rem. It has been said that a person may take part in the breaking of bread, and not take the Lord's supper.

J.T. I do not understand that at all; the breaking of bread is the Supper. We come together to break bread; but the other side is that the Lord died here; "ye do show the Lord's death" here.

Ques. Does the Supper suggest eating and drinking?

J.T. It does certainly. The Supper is connected with public testimony. The breaking of bread is a memorial.

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HOW THE BELIEVER IS TO BE AMONG HIS BRETHREN

Romans 12:3 - 5; 1 Thessalonians 2:7

What I have to say, dear brethren, refers to the word "among", having in view how each is to be among his brethren. It will be recalled that the Lord said of Himself, that He was among the disciples "as the one that serves". He is the model for us. Indeed it is said in Ephesians 4:13 "until we all arrive at the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, at the full-grown man, at the measure of the stature of the fulness of the Christ": and the apostles recognizing this, in selecting the one to take the room or fill the office from which Judas fell, stipulated that it was to be one who had companied with them during all the time in which the Lord Jesus came in and went out among them, from the baptism of John until the day in which He was taken up; showing that the one who is to serve in the exalted capacity of an apostle, should be acquainted with the Lord's manner as coming in and going out amongst His disciples, amongst His own. There was to be in his service, as in the service of the others, a reflection of the fulness of what shone out in Christ even in coming in and going out amongst His own. And so the apostle in writing to Rome before he visited the place, speaks to them in this individual manner, singling them out, "every one that is among you", he says. So that the intent was that each of the saints at Rome should take to heart, how he was among his brethren.

I read from 1 Thessalonians because the apostle calls attention to his own manner as amongst them. Indeed the Holy Spirit records that in his visit to Thessalonica he went in, as his custom was, to the synagogue; he went in as one among others; so that

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great as he was in his service and in his representation of God as an apostle, he would convey the thought that he was one among others. "He went in among them, and on three sabbaths reasoned with them from the scriptures, opening and laying down that the Christ must have suffered and risen up from among the dead", and that Jesus whom he announced, was the Christ.

We shall see that this is a practical matter because each of us has to take account of himself not simply as belonging to the company but as among others. He does belong to the company, but he has to single himself out in this respect as among the saints, as to how he behaves, and what he is amongst them. Hence the apostle, in opening up this matter, speaks not formally as in authority but according to the grace given to him. So that in service it is according to the grace given to one, and that means that one has not only power as having received authority and gift, but because of one's character arising from his spiritual formation. So the exhortation is "to every one that is among you, not to have high thoughts above what he should think".

Now what I have to say leads up to the truth of the body. The passage continues that as in a body we have many members, thus "we, being many, are one body in Christ". That is the setting of the truth of the body in Romans. It is a question of delivering us from the principles that govern other bodies. There are other bodies in the world, such as Free Masons, Good Templars, Foresters and various political societies, bound under certain rules; but in no case can any of these be called a body in Christ. They are bodies in the sense of being bound together under certain rules and principles, but in no case can any one of them be called "one body in Christ", even though held in so well by principles or influences that there is no schism. Of only one set of

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people can it be said that they are one body in Christ, and that body is indicated in this passage where each begins thinking of himself soberly so as to be wise, as God has dealt to each a measure of faith. That is to say, one is in the faith realm, and in that realm each has a measure that is appointed by God. We have to do with the God of measure, and therefore one's own will, and every other will, is shut out. It is a question of the measure divinely given to each, and we must recognize this if we are to be in God's realm. God determines the measure. He is said to be the God of several things, one of them is measure, and that shows how important the matter is. The physical system necessarily depends upon the principle of measure, in distance, weight and capacity. If the universe is to hold as it does and fulfil the will of God, this must enter into it.

Now the same principle must enter into the great moral system into which we have been brought: a realm that is governed by this principle of measure; and it is not promiscuous or general, merely, it applies in detail: "as God has dealt to each a measure of faith". Here you will observe that it is not a measure of gift, as in Ephesians, although that idea enters into it, but it is a measure of faith, which must apply to every one in the body. It is not a sight system or body, but a faith system, and so God regulates it initially in this way, by giving to each a measure. Each in the body -- I am now using the word "body" in the sense of a company, for I apprehend that is the force of it here, the initial idea -- everyone has to regard himself in a sober manner as among his brethren, according to the measure of faith which God has given to him. It may take time, but the grace given at the outset is that which directs the heart to God, and I have to learn from God what my measure is. It is a question of what God gives, "as God has dealt to each a

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measure of faith". One would raise the question, dear brethren, as to whether we have thought it worth while to make this enquiry from God? to get into direct touch with God as to the measure that it has pleased Him to apportion to each? So that after determining it before Him, we might turn round to the brethren and move in and out amongst them, according to that.

It is not what I may be naturally: I may have certain ability, I may be a speaker or a thinker, or a man of wealth. These things will give a man a status and a place in any of the societies I have mentioned: they go to make up what is required; faith is not needed in them; they belong to a world of sight, and the principles of this world govern them. Whereas in this epistle the great feature is faith, and then the Spirit, but faith to take us out of the world and bring us into a realm in which God is dominant, in which His measure is applied to each, and in which each is governed in his going in and out amongst his brethren by that principle of faith.

If he looks abroad on the wide expanse of the heavens he does not use a telescope, nor does he take his spade and dig down into the earth to find out what is there. He uses faith. He says, "By faith we apprehend that the worlds were framed by the word of God", not made, but "framed", which indicates scale, measure, weight. The believer in the Christian company regards all this, he is not indifferent to the physical creation. It is something in his mind, and so, he says, We apprehend by faith that, great and glorious, and indeed incomprehensible as it is to us creatures, it was all framed and carried into effect by the word of God. The astronomer generally leaves that out; it is not part of his education; so does the geologist; science leaves it out. But the believer as going in and out amongst his brethren does not leave it out. He applies faith to everything. He

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says, By faith we understand, not simply I understand, but by faith we -- christians -- understand that the worlds were framed "by the word of God". We are able to see in these things that are made, the eternal power and divinity of God. Believers apprehend through the mind, as Scripture says, that these things were framed by the word of God; the things convey, the invisible things of God, even His eternal power and divinity. It is no small matter that one among His people should bring that in. It ought to affect us in our morning readings and prayer and giving of thanks, as at all times. No intelligent lover of God would fail to regard creation in that light, and give thinks to God for it. It is all brought in among us, by one and another who apprehends it by faith. God is in it. "He is not far", says the apostle, "from each one of us", and he was speaking to unbelievers. It shows how God enters into what is material, and how the believer, governed and actuated by faith, respects Him there and honours Him there; the apostle says that every creature of God is good and to be accepted with thanksgiving being sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

You can see thus, dear brethren, how this element of faith in each of us tends to make the company of christians in any locality spiritual. It diverts from what is material; though he thinks of what is material, it is in a spiritual way, on the principle of faith. It makes the company spiritual, and each one among them serves. He looks on them now, as the apostle goes on to say, according to the figure of the human body. Perhaps we know less about our bodies than we know about anything. They are fearfully and wonderfully made. God alone knows them. The body is said to be curiously wrought in the lower parts of the earth. But it is brought in here as symbolic, figurative of believers. As I reckon soberly, and according to the measure of faith, I begin to see

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that others have faith in their measure, and I must stand in relation to them, according to the measure that each has. If another has more than I have, I am bound to recognize it; and gradually this principle works out until we begin to see that we stand organically in relation to one another. I use that word because it is a word that properly applies to the human body. Organization may be applied to a company of persons under rules so that each knows his place, his service; but in an organism we are more closely bound up together. I begin to recognize the divine measure in each of my brethren, as among them: each has to take that position as among others. I recognize what each has, and if another has a greater measure of faith, I bow, if I am before God, if I have been to God about myself and am thinking about myself soberly, so as to be wise. "As God has dealt to each a measure of faith", I am bound to recognize that in another, and that gives me my place in relation to him. I have determined my place in relation to him, and he determines his place in relation to me, and so it goes through the company, until each determines his position as divinely given, according to the measure which God has dealt to each.

Well now we have an organism. We have arrived at a point where the Holy Spirit is moving in us organically. I do not say that you get that in this chapter, for you do not get the Spirit emphasized here, it is a question of faith: you get that in 1 Corinthians: "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body ... and have been all made to drink into one Spirit". That is more vital, but I am speaking of what is initial, how we arrive at proper movement, conduct and manner, as each is among his brethren, on the principle of faith. We have thus arrived at the organism, and can say it is "one body in Christ", and no other body in the world can say

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that. In each locality where christians may be, as in Rome, no other body, the Senate or others, could claim such dignity, such a status, as to be one body in Christ. That status is respected in heaven. The heavenly intelligences understand what it is -- "one body in Christ". What dignity! The Holy Spirit is the power of it. Faith is the initial idea, and takes us out of the world, as having light as to it. Romans is a question of light, and I am dealing now with light as governing us in a collective sense. No one can be in a body in this world, and understand what I am speaking of -- one body in Christ. It is incompatible with any other organization or organism; so that the light is delivering. In Romans the armour is "the armour of light". It is not as great as that in Ephesians; it is just the armour of light, and it applies to the saints as viewed in this collective way -- that they are "one body in Christ". It delivers us therefore from all other bodies whatever they may be; although they may be advantageous in a worldly respect, they have not the status of one body in Christ, and therefore a position in them is incompatible with the calling of the believer in Christ.

What you see in the exhortation in Romans 12 is that Paul begins with what we may call gift, as in the sense of Ephesians: prophecy, teaching, leading and exhortation; and then they come down, and extend out to everyone in the company, as in giving, loving, overcoming evil with good; but the exhortation begins with those who have gift. If one has the gift of prophecy in any local gathering it is for him to take the lead in showing how this great principle works out, for the young have to learn from the old. He is to prophesy according to the measure of faith; he is not to go beyond it; nor will he take everything into his own hands, but would make room for others; that is, he gives a lead. The chapter covers much on this line, ending up with the overcoming of evil with

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good. A great moral victory! A company in any given place, such as Rome, marked by this great moral victory of overcoming evil with good is indeed a testimony.

In the apostle's own manner and service at Thessalonica we have this exemplified. He says that he was in the midst of them as a nurse. That is remarkable. The great apostle of the Gentiles is in the midst of the Thessalonians as a nurse! How near his Master he was! and how striking the result in the company! His entrance as a servant into Thessalonica was marked by this very principle. He went in among them, and served for three sabbath days opening up and alleging that the Christ must have suffered and have risen again from the dead, and that Jesus whom he preached was He. How they would think of Paul afterwards and his manner amongst them! He was amongst them as a nurse. Now that challenges our hearts, as to how one is amongst his brethren; for in serving, that is the principle, to be one of the brethren. He entered in amongst them, and continued for three sabbath days, as it says, and the result was marvellous! Many of the Jews believed and some of the Greeks, and of the chief women not a few. The result was excellent, and not only that, but the apostle shows how the thing went on, how the example shown by the apostle worked out so that from them sounded out the word of the glad tidings. They had become followers of Paul first, and then of the Lord. You see the example was so reflective of the character of Christ, that as they became followers of the apostle, they became followers of the Lord. The apostle was a nurse. He is thinking of their welfare, and the assembly that was formed there is honoured in a peculiar way, in that he addresses it as "the assembly of the Thessalonians in God the Father". That is how they are regarded. This works out in correspondence with Christ. He was amongst His

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own as the One who served, not simply as a servant but as the One who served; the article is there. I think it is a good thing to seek to picture in one's own mind the scene during the time of the Lord's sojourn here, during the time of His ministry, as the Holy Spirit says, "From the baptism of John until the day in which he was taken up". What do you see in Galilee, or in Judaea, as He sat down with His own, as He conversed with them, as He talked with them? Luke refers to "All the time in which the Lord Jesus came in and went out among us"; Luke records Peter saying that, "From the baptism of John until the day in which he was taken up". The apostle that was to be selected must be one of those who had seen all that; and so would reflect what Jesus was amongst His own.

Now I would like to finish with what He is amongst His own -- what Jesus is amongst us. It may be we have not thought much of this. Personally I should like to suggest, as moving in and out amongst the brethren, something of Jesus. That is what the Holy Spirit is leading up to. All ministry is to that end, that we might be led "to the measure of the stature of the fulness of the Christ". In writing to the Colossians, which assembly the apostle Paul said he had not yet visited, he refers to a dispensation that had been given to him, that is the mystery. I wonder how many of us have thought of the mystery? There are mysteries attached to certain secret societies but I do not know that there is much in them; people that belong to these societies assume that there are mysteries. But there is a very real mystery connected with the body of Christ.

In 1 Corinthians it is a question of the Spirit, and instead of the measure of faith, it is that God has set the members in the body "as it has pleased him". He has set each of us there according to His pleasure. It is a very beautiful and practical thought. But

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in Colossians the epistle speaks about suffering, filling up that which is behind of the sufferings of Christ, and when I speak of that, one has to be very humble, because he knows so little about the filling up of the sufferings of Christ for His body's sake. Have I filled out my little bit of the sufferings of Christ for His body's sake? The body becomes intensely interesting as we regard it in this way. And so the apostle is desirous to fill up that which is behind of the sufferings of Christ for His body's sake which is the assembly. That is the mystery which was hid from the ages -- the mystery which is now among the nations. I use the word "among" there, because it leads on to what I am saying. Think of what there is amongst us -- the mystery, "this mystery among the nations, which is Christ in you the hope of glory". How much have we thought of it?

Perhaps you say that everything is told out; there is nothing that any person in this town may not know. Well then, there is no mystery. The idea is that we do not tell everything. We do not cast our pearls before swine; if we do, they turn and rend us. The Lord spoke parabolically, and that was to hide things, the mysteries of the kingdom. The idea of mystery, divine mystery, lends tone. It gives a certain dignity to those initiated, as possessing something that others have not and cannot have. What do we know about this mystery amongst us -- this mystery amongst the nations? It means among other things that I am much less externally than I am internally. The believer is much greater in the divine realm than he is externally. He gradually becomes less and less outwardly, and it is in his reduction, to a great extent, that the things of God are in mystery. I do not say that we should not preach Christ, far otherwise; but then the apostle in speaking to the Corinthians did not tell them everything. He kept the secret that he had been to the third heaven for fourteen years. And

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so he conveys to the Colossians that there was a mystery amongst them, for they represent the nations; and he speaks further about all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge being hid in it, so that there is an intensification of the thought. There is a mystery and something hidden in the mystery, and what is it? "Christ in you (among you) the hope of glory". The understanding of that takes us out of this world altogether, as fixing our minds on another world where Christ is. The apostle had not as yet been amongst them, but Christ was amongst them, and that was greater. He had been rejected by His own according to the flesh, but He had found a place amongst the Gentiles, and He is amongst us, and that is the mystery; but He is amongst us as the hope of glory.

And so, dear brethren, this truth leads us out of the world. Romans takes you out of Egypt, but Colossians takes you into the land of Canaan. The principle of Colossians is going in, the principle of Romans is going out. Romans is generally a question of light. By it we come out of what God has doomed, on the principle of faith. But in Colossians, we come into what God has effected in Christ; we come in on the principle of faith of course; it is by the Spirit, but more correctly by what the Spirit works in us. We are raised with Christ and also quickened with Him. We are raised with Him through the faith of the working of God, but quickening with Him is a positive work in us. May God bless His word, and lead us to reflect as to how each one behaves amongst his brethren.

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CONDITIONS FOR GUIDANCE AND TESTIMONY

Exodus 39:32, 33; Exodus 40:17 - 38

J.T. I had before me the conditions under which we get guidance from God and testimony. These passages indicate the part the people had in the preparation for the divine incoming, and I think what is presented indicates too that they represent a condition of full growth amongst the people of God. It is said, "And all the labour of the tabernacle of the tent of meeting was ended; and the children of Israel had done it according to all that Jehovah had commanded Moses -- so had they done it. And they brought the tabernacle to Moses". I was thinking of the great divine thought typically in their minds. They brought the tabernacle -- not simply the parts of it; if there is to be the divine presence and guidance, and the testimony that flows from it, the full thought should be with us.

It is quite clear that if there is to be testimony and guidance, the divine requirements must be met, and that not only a matter of light, but substantially. What is to be observed in the book of Exodus, is that Jehovah had entered into covenant, and the covenant was fully ratified between Himself and the people before the requirements of the dwelling were indicated by Him, and not only was the covenant entered into, but certain persons were invited up the mountain so that the divine requirements should be apprehended -- "Moses and Aaron. Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel went up, and they saw the God of Israel"; it says, "... And on the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: they saw God, and ate and drank". And then Moses is taken up higher and shown the pattern. It is as if God would have the conditions before proceeding.

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He had brought the people to Himself, borne them on eagles' wings, entered into covenant with them and ennobled them, and then, if He is to proceed, and if there is to be guidance and testimony, there must be the conditions for dwelling. That is what I had in mind, and how these conditions are required from the people. They have opportunity to provide and they do provide them, and in bringing the parts, the people brought the tabernacle; the great divine thought was evident.

Ques. Have you local conditions in view in suggesting this, or something more general?

J.T. General and local conditions. The assembly economy is worked out locally. At Pentecost God came in by the Spirit and the tabernacle was set up, and the position was metropolitan, pending the time when the period of God's patience with Israel should terminate; and then Paul's ministry provided for the distinctive economy of the assembly which took form in localities, so that all administration henceforth ceased to be metropolitan or universal, and took the form of local service. The letters to Corinth open up that side of the truth, and, in this respect, govern the dispensation. Hence if anything is prescribed it is not for the whole assembly, as such, but for the assemblies: "Thus I ordain in all the assemblies", 1 Corinthians 7:17. Therefore, the instruction would work out locally, that is to say, where there are conditions in localities for the divine presence, we may look for divine guidance and corresponding testimony. It is not a mere matter of light. What Moses received on the mount is light and instruction, the pattern is shown him, but from chapter 36 on it is a question of what the people brought and what was constructed. Without the actual substance, there could not be accommodation for Jehovah.

Ques. Do you suggest these conditions should mark every locality, or the assembly universally?

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J.T. There is the great general thought in the tabernacle, but administration is in localities. There should be the most careful avoidance of anything like universal administration. There is of course, "One body and one Spirit ... one Lord, one faith, one baptism", but the economy is in 1 and 2 Corinthians. Numbers opens up the local features, and shows how they work out. The general thought is in Exodus. In Numbers we have the standard of each father's house, and then each tribe, and then a four-fold sub-division of the twelve tribes, that is to say, three under the standard of Judah in the east, three under the standard of Reuben in the south, three under the standard of Ephraim in the west, and three under the standard of Dan in the north; that is the principle. In the midst of all that was God's dwelling; but the divine shining would be on any of those sub-divisions. "Thou that sittest between the cherubim, shine forth. Before Ephraim and Benjamin and Manasseh ..." Psalm 80:1, 2. That is to say, the shining out of the glory is on the saints in their several localities.

Ques. Would you say that, however weak numerically a company may be, the assembly is to be fully represented there?

J.T. That is the thought. All that is administrative now is worked out in localities, as at Antioch or Corinth. At Antioch, in the assembly that was there, there were certain ones who ministered to the Lord and fasted, and the sending out of servants follows, the conditions for this were there.

Ques. So the tabernacle is first mentioned here, whereas the ark is first brought in in chapter 25. Would you say something as to that?

J.T. The ark is mentioned first because it is the leading feature. It refers to Christ, but Christ as apprehended in our souls. In the types, Christ was there in the passover lamb; but He was not apprehended

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as typified in the ark. What we have from chapter 25 to the end of the book refers to the covenant; it is the outcome of the covenant known and entered into, so that the saints are prepared for a new view of Christ, and He is presented there as the ark of the covenant, that in which the testimony was definitely placed. I do not know what else you had in mind.

Rem. There has been some exercise as to the making of the ark, and I wondered if we could get a little help as to that.

J.T. With all the other parts of the tabernacle and its furniture it had to be made, because these things are but shadows. The tabernacle is said to be a figurative representation of things in the heavens, and then the furniture -- the ark and the cherubim, the mercy-seat, the table and the candlestick, all have reference to Christ and the saints, but the ark is expressly Christ Himself, in figure.

Rem. There is a little difficulty with some as to how it works out. Who made the ark?

J.T. Well, in Exodus 25, it says, "And they shall make an ark of acacia-wood" (verse 10); and then in chapter 37, "And Bezaleel made the ark of acacia-wood", verse l. Then in Deuteronomy 10, it is said, "And make thee an ark of wood" (verse 1), and then it says, "I made an ark of acacia-wood", verse 3. That is what Scripture says.

Ques. Is the ark in relation to Christ personally, or Christ as formed in the saints in the way of testimony?

J.T. It is in the wilderness, not in Egypt, that He is thus apprehended as effecting the will of God. You can only understand the types by the anti-types, and the fact is, that Christ was here on earth with the will of God in His heart, before the saints apprehended Him in that light. So, in Exodus, He was there in the passover lamb before He was apprehended, or

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could have been apprehended, as the ark. It is quite clear that the ark represents Christ personally, from the very outset of His coming into the world. He came in lowly grace: "The Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we have contemplated his glory ... )". The fact of His being there and dwelling amongst men, preceded His glory being apprehended. So as regards later references to the ark, Numbers 10 says, it "went before them in the three days' journey, to search out a resting-place for them", verse 33. It went before the people, and it does not say that it was carried. That is Christ personally; no one but He could do that.

Ques. Does the apprehension of the saints commence really from Christ at the right hand of God and the Spirit here?

J.T. A true apprehension could only be from the coming in of the Holy Spirit. I do not believe the apostles and the others who accompanied the Lord apprehended Exodus until the Holy Spirit came. It was in resurrection that beginning "from Moses and from all the prophets, he interpreted to them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself". Luke 24:27. The Holy Spirit coming in would enable them to understand what was meant, but all was there. He had already annulled death; He had already gone the three days' journey to find a resting place for them.

Rem. So it is significant that it says Bezaleel made the ark.

J.T. It is. The first thing is, the people were to do it; then Bezaleel is said to have done it; and then Moses is said to have made it. I think that Bezaleel refers to the Spirit of God as operating in the saints. It is a question of our apprehension of Christ, but what He is is there before I apprehend Him.

Ques. Is there a moral correspondence between

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the first day of the month and the first day of the week in the new dispensation?

J.T. I think there is; the month had a great place in Israel's time; but the week was carried over to the assembly and gives character to our time.

Ques. Is the ark God's beginning?

J.T. It is. It was in the Lord's mind when He said, "A body hast thou prepared me". But we do not come into that at once; it is a question of our apprehension. There is no mention of it in Egypt, but He was the same there as in the wilderness. The types provide for the progress of the believer. As delivered from the world he is ready to view Christ as seen in the ark.

Ques. Would you say everything depends on our having the Spirit?

J.T. As to apprehension. It is a remarkable thing that in John 2, where the Lord speaks about raising up His body, it says, "When therefore he was raised from among the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this, and believed the scripture and the word which Jesus had spoken", verse 22. The Scriptures in this passage come before the words that He said; but in resurrection He opens up the Scriptures. He began at Moses, and you may be sure that He touched on the ark. The two on the way to Emmaus could hardly take in what He was saying, though their hearts burned while He talked to them on the way. But when He appeared in the midst of those gathered together He "opened their understanding to understand the scriptures". All that, for us, involves the Spirit; we are to consider what is said, and the Lord gives us understanding; so that the making of the type in itself is secondary; it is a question of Christ as the power of God and the glory of God. Who could these things refer to but the Person of Christ? So it is said that God "gave his strength into

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captivity, and his glory into the hand of the oppressor". Psalm 78:61.

Ques. Would you consider the making of the other articles as different from the ark?

J.T. No, all had to be made, being only types. Some of them involve the saints. I think the tabernacle itself, that is to say, the curtains, refers to the assembly in the anti-type; Hebrews speaks of a "better and more perfect tabernacle" "which the Lord has pitched, and not man". That involves for the moment the assembly and that is what we are considering now, to see that what these types signify exists in our localities, so that there may be guidance from God and testimony for Him.

Ques. What would answer to the "work of the tabernacle"?

J.T. The great primary thought of it is at Pentecost, and what was there included the Lord's work before He went up. It is always existent since Pentecost, and includes all those who have the Holy Spirit.

Ques. Has the work spoken of in Corinthians anything to do with it?

J.T. I think so. The apostle says that as a wise architect he had laid the foundation and others were to take heed how they built upon it; 1 Corinthians 3:10. There was not much else there, beyond the foundation. It is a question of our working with God, as having part in the service of building.

Ques. With regard to the tabernacle being completed, how do you look at that?

J.T. Well, practically, it is a question of our apprehension, with the consequence of formation through suitable exercise. Thus there is material. It really works out in a state of practical unity in any locality. In approaching the Lord's supper the apostle said, "I speak as to intelligent persons: do ye judge what I say", 1 Corinthians 10:15. That is how it stands; and so in the beginning of the first letter to

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the Corinthians he seeks to check the natural mind of man, that is, mere human wisdom. His great thought is to eliminate that because it had found a footing amongst them; his ministry is to get out from our minds man's wisdom, for it interferes with the working out of the truth of the tabernacle, and he brings in the wisdom of God. So that in chapter 2, he determined to know nothing among them save Jesus Christ and Him crucified (verse 2), and then he proceeds to show that the princes of this world knew nothing of the wisdom that God prepared for us before the world. It was a question of making room for the Spirit; and I believe what is needed in our gatherings is to make room for the Spirit of God to bring in the wisdom that God prepared for our glory, before the world. Well, that is chapter 2: and then in chapter 3, you have the temple of God, where His mind is opened up. So that I think the epistles to the Corinthians enable us to apprehend what is in the mind of God for each locality, that is, the character of the thing. It is the assembly, not in an absolute way as including all, but in character. We are "temple of God" and "body of Christ". Then there is the anointing, so that there is, in principle, in every locality where saints are truly gathered, what answers to the tabernacle; that is, they can have a part in that in which God's glory resides, and in which there is guidance and testimony.

Ques. Is that to be recognized by knowing no man after the flesh?

J.T. That is what he comes to in the second epistle. The tabernacle is not of this creation; it is a new creation: "If any one be in Christ, there is a new creation", 2 Corinthians 5:17. We come on to that.

Ques. Would you say that the working out of the divine system is to be seen in local companies?

J.T. That is what we were remarking. What is to be worked out in the assembly as a whole is millennial,

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and the assembly is there seen coming down from God out of heaven. Then it is universal administration; but at the present time it is administration in localities.

Ques. So the tabernacle has a universal aspect?

J.T. It has. Ephesians contemplates the assembly in its universal character, but administration now is according to 1 Corinthians. We must keep the whole assembly in view, of course, but when it comes to the administrative feature, it is the assemblies.

Ques. Would you say it is God's way to have administration carried out separately in each locality all over the world today?

J.T. Yes. It is a wonderful thought that all are governed by the same principles. That is to say, the epistle to the Ephesians prepares us properly for 1 and 2 Corinthians. If we apprehend "there is one body and one Spirit, as ye have been also called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in us all" (Ephesians 4:4 - 6), then we understand how to work all that out locally, but as set in relation to the whole. We never lose sight of the whole; and I think it is very wonderful that in our own times God has gatherings of His people in many parts of the world, holding them together with the same thoughts and principles and affections. The working out of these things is thus going on all the time.

Ques. Is that why it says that the Spirit speaks to the assemblies in Revelation?

J.T. It is the same idea: "what the Spirit says to the assemblies"; He has something to say to each of them. But all are to know what is said to each.

Ques. Does not the complete thought of the tabernacle involve a good deal, whilst in localities we may have certain features and lack others?

J.T. I ventured to suggest this scripture because

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it corresponds somewhat with Ephesians, conveying what is essential to the divine dwelling, so that it might be seen as worked out in a locality. It is necessarily on a smaller scale in each locality, so it is more the character of the thing, and therefore we must not look for too much. The thing is to have the great thought before us, as we have it here. The tabernacle is the great divine thought, and we are to understand how far that can be worked out. The features of the divine dwelling are worked out locally, with the consequent guidance and testimony. So in Exodus 40, the tabernacle is reared up, and as each part is mentioned it is actually in function. So that no brother or sister in fellowship, as we speak, should be inactive; the point is that each in his place should be functioning.

Ques. Would brethren dwelling together in unity provide those conditions?

J.T. I think so; the unity of the Spirit involves an intelligent apprehension of what is presented in Ephesians 4:4 - 6.

Ques. Are the movements of the cloud intended to bring about practical unity in local companies?

J.T. Yes. In speaking of local conditions, we never forget the one great divine thought in the word "tabernacle" as worked out in Ephesians; lest there might be a tendency to so-called congregationalism, that is, each company acting for itself. That is not the unity of the Spirit at all. The unity of the Spirit means that if a local company acts, it acts in relation to the whole.

Ques. What would answer to the cloud and its movements today?

J.T. It is a general thought. When you come to the cloud and the tabernacle, as a whole, you are on Ephesian ground, not, however, in its bearing on "the land", but as it enters into 1 Corinthians, which is the wilderness position. It is a question of the

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bearing of that in any locality. The movement of the cloud would refer to any special form that ministry might take. God, from time to time, stresses certain features of the truth, and the point is to have such discernment that you see what is in His mind and move with it, not merely locally but as with the whole position.

Ques. Does what you say emphasize the necessity of a care-meeting in every locality, however weak numerically we may be?

J.T. I think so. Care-meetings are very important, because they ought to furnish eyes for the assembly. The elders watch for the souls of the saints; and we ought to have a lively look out for any working of evil and any working of good too; all that is brought to the attention of the assembly and the assembly acts on it. The care-meeting is not executive but investigative.

Ques. Would it be right to say that while things are worked out locally, the headquarters are in heaven?

J.T. That is right. That is what Matthew would emphasize; so too in Acts you have the sound from heaven, and then the voice from heaven, and then the sheet from heaven; all that would indicate that the centre for the assembly is in heaven. The movements of the cloud, primarily, refer to the change from the ministry of the twelve, and involve the moving out of God toward the Gentiles. I think that is where you get the most concrete evidence of it. It was a very distinct move on the part of God, and a very distinct departure in His testimony and ways.

Ques. Does the repetition of the words, "Jehovah had commanded Moses", suggest to us the practical way it works, that, however small a company, every detail is to be carried out under the direction of the Lord?

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J.T. That is very good; and the typical books -- Exodus. Leviticus and Numbers particularly -- greatly stress the necessity for obedience to the commandments.

Rem. That seems to be where our dear brethren in the systems around us fail. They may be very careful about some features and have some truth which they follow and treasure, but, as you say, it needs every detail. Even the smallest assembly should be in the light of the tabernacle as a whole and moving in it.

J.T. That is right, and I think that is what you get here. It says, "And all the labour of the tabernacle of the tent of meeting was ended; and the children of Israel had done it according to all that Jehovah had commanded Moses" (verse 32), and then again, "And Moses saw all the work, and behold, they had done it as Jehovah had commanded -- so had they done it; and Moses blessed them", verse 43. That is how the matter really stands as to the requirements, and the blessing comes in from the Mediator; the Lord has great delight in it.

Rem. So in Corinthians His commandments are emphasized.

J.T. Exactly. "If any one thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him recognise the things that I write to you, that it is the Lord's commandment", 1 Corinthians 14:37. As was remarked, some of our dear brethren have some of them. We are glad that they observe anything of the divine will, but then here we have the word "all" emphasized: "all that Jehovah had commanded". I think the Lord would encourage us to seek out our relatives in the systems, but it would be to bring in the commandments.

It is really the working out of the number twelve, as I understand it. Jacob going into Syria found himself in circumstances that are very analogous to what we find around us today in any of the denominations.

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He found himself with three flocks by a well, but with nobody to take away the stone from the well, and therefore, though the well was there, there was no water available. Jacob could tell them to water the flocks, but he did not do it himself until Rachel came into view, and then he rolled away the stone and watered the flock, and expressed affection for her. Then Laban comes and expresses his affection for his sister's son, and so Jacob is in the midst of his relatives; but they are not in the land of Canaan. Following upon that, the number twelve comes into evidence; he has twelve sons but by four different mothers. They were incongruous conditions; but God vouchsafed to work out His thoughts in spite of those conditions.

So the conditions today are extremely difficult, because our brethren are found in those denominations around us which, so to speak, allow of different mothers, and difficulties are formed and we do not understand one another. So there was the great conflict between Jacob and Laban, but nevertheless, he came back to Canaan with his twelve sons. He had great sorrow on the way, disastrous things happened; but he got to Hebron with his twelve sons, to the place where Isaac was and where Abraham had been. That is how the matter stands.

Then you get the history of Esau, the man after the flesh, and then the generations of Jacob, and the only one mentioned is Joseph; it is Christ, in figure, who was to bring the sons into accord with one another. That is, the brethren are brought together under the influence of Joseph, and I believe that illustrates conditions among the people of God today. It is a question of getting amongst our relatives and giving them water, and then love flows out; it never fails. The difficulties are dreadful, but "Love never fails"; and the twelve, issuing from Jacob under those circumstances, are in view

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throughout Scripture, showing what love is, and how it works out the divine thoughts, in spite of the difficulties. I suppose there never was a time more difficult than the present: "difficult times shall be there", 2 Timothy 3:1, but love works to bring in the full divine thoughts, to make a habitation for God.

Ques. Was the result in our chapter the outcome of all those conditions?

J.T. Figuratively, you have here what love is. Love works out in Israel so that God is pleased. We have most remarkable language in verse 33: "And so Moses finished the work. And the cloud covered the tent of meeting, and the glory of Jehovah filled the tabernacle". It is most inspiring language, and I am sure if we once get a taste for the divine presence in our localities, we shall not be content until we secure it permanently. We cannot do without it; it is not only a matter of light, but of the blessedness of the divine presence. God is now, in suitable conditions, dwelling among His people.

Ques. What do you understand by the expression "Love never fails"?

J.T. It is equal to every emergency. Scripture says it never fails; it certainly never failed in God.

Ques. Is it because it is the divine nature?

J.T. Just so. "God is love"; that is what He is. "There failed nothing of all the good things that Jehovah had spoken to the house of Israel: all came to pass". Joshua 21:45.

Ques. Is the fire coming in by night an additional thought?

J.T. Yes. I think the allusion in Deuteronomy 33 is to the cloud. It says, "From his right hand went forth a law of fire for them", or as others read, "a fire to guide them", (verse 2). The beginning of that chapter is magnificent, in that it shows the auspicious circumstances under which the wilderness journey was begun. It says, "Jehovah came from Sinai, and

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rose up from Seir unto them; he shone forth from mount Paran, and he came from the myriads of the sanctuary; from his right hand went forth a law of fire", which I think alludes to the cloud and the pillar, because the actual law is referred to later. "Moses commanded us a law, the inheritance of the congregation of Jacob", verse 4. What Moses commanded was the law, but these wonderful features marked the beginning of the wilderness journey of the people, because, as it says, "He (Jehovah) loveth the peoples". Divine love never fails us; what He is from Sinai, and from Seir, and from mount Paran, and the myriads of the sanctuary, and in the pillar of fire to guide, is all what He is as love.

Ques. Would the end of 2 Corinthians correspond at all? "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit, be with you all".

J.T. I think so; the "love of God". There we have it in its beautiful mediatorial setting.

Ques. Would the fire bring in any thought of discipline, the thought of the jealousy of love?

J.T. Yes; it would be a reminder of what God is in that sense. It guided them by day and by night. What we should see in what has come before us is the importance of spiritual substance, not simply that we have right terms and right hymns and so forth, but substance. God has regard for that, and if we have not love, as the apostle says, we are nothing.

Ques. Would it bring in the idea of judgment beginning at the house of God?

J.T. Just so. But the assembly is not founded in judgment; it is really founded where the sword of judgment is sheathed. In 1 Chronicles 21, David could not go to the tabernacle at Gibeon because of the angel (verse 29, 30); that is to say, the old system involved judgment, but the new system was on the

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threshing-floor of Ornan the Jebusite: there the sword of judgment was sheathed; and David said, "This is the house of Jehovah Elohim, and this is the altar of burnt-offering for Israel", chapter 22: 1. That was the place, and the building of it was not by a man that executed judgment, but by a man of love and peace -- Solomon. The house of God is therefore the residence of love, but then love is jealous and judgment does begin at the house, but the house itself is not the subject of judgment.

Ques. How do you distinguish between the moving of the cloud and the blowing of the trumpets? Both are referred to in regard of journeying?

J.T. The cloud was the symbol of the divine presence. The silver trumpets were a means of testimony. The cloud was permanent, but the blowing of the trumpets was occasional, that is, as needed; some form of ministry in which God calls special attention to something. The two things go together; you get them both in Numbers 10.

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THE PREPARED TABLE

1 Corinthians 10:21; Leviticus 24:5 - 9; Exodus 25:29, 30

From the scriptures I have read it will be expected that I have the thought of table in mind. It has an important place in Scripture. One who had experience with God, the psalmist, says in Psalm 23 that Jehovah prepared a table before him in the presence of his enemies -- a very touching allusion to divine thoughtfulness, for not only was food provided, but a furnished table. The thought indeed stands in the very centre of the divine system. I use this word advisedly, for, as leading His people out of Egypt, God established a system, but it was really a family affair. God never loses sight of that -- having in view His great thought according to His counsel, to surround Himself with a family, involving the very sweetest and most precious thoughts. And so, having led His people out of Egypt, He proposed to surround Himself with them, but always having in view not only the family but the order becoming to a household. We shall not understand the position in the wilderness, save as having in view that it was the family first, then the house.

God, referring to it, says that when Israel was a child He loved him, and called His son out of Egypt. But then they had everything to learn. That is important to remember. As coming out of the world, we are untaught and so must take the place of learners. Before we leave the world we may have thoughts of God, but they are not in a right setting. We have to see that He is in the centre of everything, and He surrounds Himself with an order of things in which He is dominant, but in which nevertheless His love pervades. It is said that Moses was a servant in that house, faithful in all God's house,

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Hebrews 3:2. He took great care of everything and so of the table. In the last chapter of Exodus you will see that there is no deviation from the divine instructions, and so the table is set in its place. As I said, they had everything to learn, even how to walk. God says He taught Ephraim to walk, taking them by their arms. He took him by the hand. It was a wonderful time in the wilderness under Sinai and Horeb. The covenant, denoting love, was made there, but, as I said, everything had to be learned. Israel encamped there for a long time. It was to be understood that everything proceeded from God. He had borne them on eagles' wings and had brought them to Himself, and then would show His love to them. Love will not leave us uninstructed. It is no glory to be uninstructed. People talk about being "simple", but there is no glory in being uninstructed; it is a disgrace. We are to be instructed, and especially in table manners.

I make these remarks so that you may see the setting of the table, but I proceed with the New Testament. Christ is seen not only as a Servant in the house, infinitely faithful in it, but He is Son over it, and that makes the house most delightful. If our wills are subdued we shall there come in for the unalloyed influence and grace of the Son; One who by right of His own Person abides in the house. He has more glory than Moses, in that He who builds the house is greater than the house. The builder of the house is Jesus, that is God. "He who built all things is God". It was Jesus that built all things. We are told that not one thing received being, that did not receive being through Him. And so in regard to the house of God on earth today, He has built it; and as having built it He is greater than it. But He is over it as Son. That is what the epistle to the Hebrews teaches. As over it, He dominates it in love, and it will be so eternally. But in the meantime

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we have wills. Every one of us has a will and that has to be dealt with. It is inimical to the peace, prosperity and order of the house of God. Its presence unsubdued in any one of us, is a current danger, material for the direct use of the adversary. So it has to be dealt with; and so whilst Christ is Son over the house He is also Lord, He is vested with all authority. All power in heaven and upon earth is in His hand, and He will use that power if necessary to subdue every one, that all may be brought into His obedience. We are sanctified to that. It is not simply that we are subject to Him, but subject as He is to God: that kind of obedience, the obedience that is suitable to heaven. It was brought down to earth by Jesus and it is to remain on earth. He left it here. As in the house we are sanctified "unto the obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ".

God never needs to compromise, and He never does. He has means of enforcing His will, and I connect this peculiarly with the Lord's table. It is "Lord's table", literally, throwing emphasis on the authority. It is that kind of a table. "Ye cannot", says the apostle, "partake of the Lord's table, and of the table of demons". We may as well accept that, for the Lord will not give up. The apostle says, "Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy?" Jealousy is fiercer than anger; it is cruel as the grave; here it is a question of idolatry. Are we stronger than He? the apostle asks. So that we might as well make up our minds in this regard; that He will not brook any will, or any idolatry which goes with it. If disobedience is persisted in, it lands us in some position in which the rights of Christ are denied. So that the first feature in the idea of the table here is authority. Every right-minded person will say "amen" to that! We cannot have the advantage of a table, save as it is ruled. Disorder and

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looseness destroy its effect, we have the Lord's table, and also the Lord's supper. But I speak of the table, and the feature of it under our consideration at the moment is the authority that marks it, and hence the exclusiveness of it. It is barely touched on here by the apostle, but from other scriptures we learn that it is full of holy meaning. It is the very centre outwardly of the system we are brought into. It involves fellowship and provision, but also divine order. So that the exclusiveness of it should be maintained, and thus the precious things of God which He ministers to us, shall come to us in holiness and dignity. We are partakers of it. The idea of the table is not simply something to eat, but of order and dignity. It is that in which a man shows what he is. He shines best there. The Lord is jealous to have a free hand at His table, so that there should be the dealing out, not of material things, but of what is suggested spiritually; that in the exclusiveness of it, all that is idolatrous is shut out.

That is the first feature I have in mind. I go on to Leviticus, because there you get the table with the food on it. In Exodus it is seen in the most spiritual surroundings. It was set on the north side of the tabernacle, the candlestick being on the south of the altar of incense, before the ark of the testimony. So that there is the idea of prayer in relation to it, in the golden altar; such prayer as ascends as incense to God; and then there is the candlestick on the south. Light is a matter of favour and is more objective. The candlestick had to be cared for by the priest from evening to morning, (verse 4). The light of God should come through unhindered, an important matter! There are those who talk about the Lord's table apart from light, but the light must be present. The fellowship is in the light, and that coming through lamps which were trimmed every morning.

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You will remember the scene at Troas, where they came together to break bread on the first day of the week; Acts 20. And what order! The suitable day is mentioned; the bread was there and the cup; but the light must shine first, and so Paul, we are told, discoursed until midnight. Why should he do that? What is it but that the table and our part in it must be in the full light of that lamp, the full light of Paul's ministry? We cannot have it rightly otherwise. The way the Lord's supper is celebrated in christendom is a mere travesty of the truth of it, and worse, for in some cases it is pure idolatry. But on the occasion at Troas Paul discoursed at length. It is to remind us that if we are to partake of the Supper we must be intelligent in what we are doing.

We are told that there were many lights in the upper chamber. It was spiritually a brilliant scene, very different from the hall of Belshazzar which also had light such as the world affords. This upper room at Troas was radiant with "heavenly light", which "makes all things bright". Paul's ministry is that, and the Lord's table is in the full light of it. But besides what he was saying, there were those there who understood, whose names are given, from different parts of the world, spiritual men. Their presence suggests the spiritual quality suitable for such an occasion. All was in the light; fellowship is in the light as God is in the light, but the Lord's supper is in heavenly light; it stands in relation to the assembly. In Leviticus 24 the lamp is on the south side. It is divine favour. Think of the divine favour that shines upon us in these last days! The light of heaven is illuminating the position of the Supper and the Lord's table, so that we understand. We know what we do. Those thus enlightened partake of the Lord's table as freed from the darkness which the religious minds of men had attached to it.

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Then the instructions go on to the two rows of loaves of fine wheaten flour. Attention is thus called to the order of God. The cakes are set in two rows of six each, and then the frankincense is upon them. It was a "pure table", made of gold. But the point here is not the gold but the purity of the table. There is nothing at all to suggest moral defilement -- it is pure. The frankincense is also pure. What marks the wisdom that is from above is that it is "first pure". So that we have the exclusiveness of the table in 1 Corinthians, and here the purity of it, and the order of it. And then the fragrance of it went up to God.

It is not here as in Exodus where it is simply the shewbread, or bread of presence. That element enters into this particular scripture too, but besides the bread of presence, you have the bread of order, involving the number twelve which conveys the idea of love in administration; so that added to what I have said you have love, the means of expressing love, twelve being that which God could manipulate at His pleasure, for the setting out of His bounty. In Leviticus the bread is arranged on the table before Jehovah. It is also food for the priests, as God has His part in it.

The act of arranging is on the sabbath. The day is most auspicious, the day of rest, and the priests have their part in the loaves. There can be no question of staleness or oldness when you apply the thing spiritually. It is food to be eaten in a holy place; it is not common. "They shall eat it in a holy place". The passage impresses upon us the necessity of purity and order, so that all is for the pleasure of God. It is the bread of memorial; it is before God as reminding Him of what Christ was, continued in us. God will have a continuance of that precious life here, but in a baked form. Baking refers to us, not to Him. The pure flour is Christ. The baking

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refers to us, the same material only in a baked form. It is not simply dough as elsewhere, but baked so as to be available for food. It is the grace of Christ continued here. It is the bread of memorial, it is that before God, as frankincense before Him, and it becomes the food of the priests. In the antitype we are all priests. Priests are not a special class of saints. Abroad in christendom it is assumed that they are so. It is not true. All saints are priests, as Peter says "an holy priesthood". We are a holy priesthood and this precious food is for us, but to be eaten in a holy place, as I said.

To come back to Exodus, I want to show what there is on this table besides the bread, having in mind what I have been saying. In a sense it is the centre of the order of things which God has ordained and over which Christ is as Son. The description in Exodus is fuller than anything of which I have spoken. I have read these verses because I wish to speak of the vessels on the table. The description is full, denoting dignity. We have its dimensions, everything measured. We get a sense of the mind of God in it. All is clothed in dignity; pure gold, a crown, and rings and staves by which to carry it. But on it there are, as you will observe, vessels. "Thou shalt make the dishes thereof, and spoons thereof, and covers thereof, and bowls thereof", with which to pour out, (as it should read) "of pure gold shalt thou make them". Then the bread is mentioned -- as you will see in the next verse, "Thou shalt set upon the table shewbread", which means the bread of the presence, "before me alway". It is not a question of the number of loaves, but simply the bread that is in the presence of God. You see how near we are brought to God. What I have read gives the very words of Jehovah spoken on the mount to Moses. How holy they are! What surroundings there were on the mount where the

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pattern was shown! And so, dear brethren, we are reminded of what the saints are, not simply now priests, but vessels for the most sacred use -- dishes, spoons, bowls with which to pour out. Where are we with regard to all these great things? These things were written for our learning with regard to the Lord's sacred service. On the dignified table of God are these holy vessels. Later such vessels were carried away and were desecrated in the hall of Belshazzar, but God never lost sight of them. And so today He is viewing them as He did in the days of Zerubbabel and Joshua, when He raised up Cyrus to restore and re-build the temple at Jerusalem. These holy vessels were restored, at least in measure, and what God is doing today is restoring vessels that belong to Him.

I wish to speak specially of the bowls "with which to pour out". The pouring out is of strong drink. I am speaking of divine things, and God is pleased to use as figures what man is accustomed to, to set out His mind, and He is pleased to use the thought of strong drink in His sanctuary. Wine, we are told, makes glad the heart of God. The vine said, when the proposal came to it to become king of the trees, "Should I leave my new wine, which cheers God and man?" What a thing it is to be a vessel with which to pour out, to pour out strong drink before God! What is it but that which suggests what is for Him, holy stimulation! Think of what a God we have! How near He comes to us to make His mind known to us, how He loves what we have of Christ in our hearts as expressed before Him. There must be something in the vessels to be poured out; it is the power of the Spirit of God in the worshipper. So that, whilst the table refers to what God dispenses towards man, it also has to do with what is for Himself. It is therefore a most precious thing as the very centre of that family sphere that is set up in

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the wilderness, where God is in the midst of His people; He is in some little way in the midst of His people today, where He has something of this joy ministered to Him. Oh, how He looks out upon the holy vessels that are in captivity! He would have them delivered from the captivity, and set down in His house, so that they might be vessels unto Him, vessels unto honour, sanctified and meet for His use. His heart is gladdened by their worship. It is indeed a question of our worshipping God in spirit and in truth.

Well, that was all I had to say, dear brethren. It is a matter more of suggesting than dealing with the subject exhaustively. Indeed one would never attempt it, for there is no such thing as dealing with divine things exhaustively. They are infinite! We can just touch on them and suggest, and then the Holy Spirit helps us to fill them out in detail, and get the benefit of the teaching. May the Lord bless the word.

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CIRCULATION

Acts 11:22 - 30; Romans 15:15 - 33: Ephesians 4:15, 16

J.T. I have in mind the idea of circulation in the things of God. It appears in these passages, the material combined with the spiritual, leading up to the truth of the body viewed organically. In the physical creation we have many illustrations of what is spiritual, and among them is the idea of circulation. It is evident that it appears in a variety of ways there, entering into the animal organisms, but also as seen in the movements of the sun, the winds and the waters as they are regarded in Scripture. So in view of the increasing extension of the work of God and its widespread nature, it occurred to me that the idea of circulation would help us, for where it is non-existent there must of necessity be paralysis or the negation of life.

I think Acts 11 furnishes the idea; beginning with the ears of the assembly. If we hear aright and have the sense of responsibility as to the work of God we shall seek to see the end of what we hear, hence as the assembly at Jerusalem had evidence of the work of God at Antioch, circulation was the result; and so in the work of God generally, those who are exercised and have ears to hear will hear and will seek to further it, so that it may prosper and hence that there may be a return for God; whatsoever form this may take, it will be on the principle of circulation. It is a simple suggestion, but I think it will be found to be practical and helpful in the present extended work of God covering many nations. But there must be uniformity both in the general course and in the end of each item of work.

M.W.B. Ecclesiastes 1 bears out the principle of circulation: "All the rivers run into the sea, yet the

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sea is not full: unto the place whither the rivers go, thither they go again".

J.T. I had thought of that passage. Water in the creation helps to illustrate the thought. Then you have the sun arising and going down and hasting to the place from which it arises, and the winds turning towards the south and then towards the north, and returning again to their circuits; and the waters running into the sea, to the place where they go, they go again. Creation as a whole furnishes us with the thought before us in a variety of ways.

A.J.H.B. That principle maintains a link between every part of the whole divine system; and tends, as you say, to uniformity.

J.T. Yes. There is the result of ministry, for instance. If brethren are always apparently receiving and there are no returns, then it is evident there is no circulation or that it is greatly hampered. If we have what is of God going in one direction only there is defect somewhere, and the place that material things have in the scriptures read makes the matter very tangible and practical. They are presented as the effect of circulation, and that through arteries wholly in keeping with the inflow. The outflow is equal to the inflow, that is to say, Barnabas and Saul represent what came in to Antioch and also what went out from Antioch; first of all in a spiritual way, and then in a material way.

C.C.E. Everything goes wrong if there is not proper circulation in the body.

J.J. Do you think this peculiar expression "the ears of the assembly" would show that the truth of the body was existent?

J.T. This section introduces the great truth of the body, but in such a practical way that the simplest can take it in. We have not the doctrine of it yet, as in Ephesians, but the simplest can see the principle of it here. There is a volume of spiritual wealth

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coming out from Jerusalem, and is there to be a return? You find immediately that there was a return, and of the most tangible kind; what was most needed perhaps at Jerusalem. The ears suggest that there is an organism. It is the only place you get the expression "ears of the assembly", and it shows that the state of things at Jerusalem was marked by intelligent interest in the work of God, wherever it might be. I suppose "ears" would represent that, so that you would look for a result. "The eye cannot say to the hand, I have not need of thee"; the hand is essential to the eye; if something is to be done corresponding to what the eye sees, the hand is necessary. All is on the principle of circulating control. Jerusalem would have in mind that there should be a return, and there was a return, and that of a kind that was most needed at Jerusalem. That is just the principle, whether we view it spiritually or materially. The coming in of Agabus accentuates the need. He and the others coming from Jerusalem bring in the mind of God: this led to the movement of love in Antioch to meet the need that should arise in Jerusalem.

J.J.T. Does circulation precede the body functioning?

J.T. It is necessary for life, so that you have the remarkable expression in Ephesians 4"Fitted together, and connected by every joint of supply". There is the idea of supply, whatever it may be.

P.L. Is it seen in Luke 8 where the women who had been healed, ministered to the Lord of their substance? Did love for Him have an outlet in that way?

J.T. That illustrates it. In chapter 7 grace flowed out from Him abundantly, but there was to be a return, and there was a return with the women; they "ministered to him of their substance". Spiritually

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the substance they had would be the result and outflow of His ministration of grace to them.

E.J.McB. Do you look at the prophets here as stimulating the circulation by a direct word from the Lord?

J.T. Yes; that confirms what we are saying.

P.L. It says the prophets "went down". Going down marks the mind of a prophet.

F.S.M. There was true administration in the assembly at Antioch in accord with the exhortation in Galatians: "Let him that is taught in the word communicate to him that teaches in all good things", chapter 6: 6. There was a circulation set up and continued.

J.T. That passage is very appropriate and practical. The work of God extending, implies that there is ministry, and "all good things" are to be provided by those who receive it to those who minister -- those through whom the Lord meets the spiritual need. The work of God always requires this kind of circulation. The Spirit of God makes more of material things than some may think; it enters into the working out of the great spiritual organism. Every one that is ministered to spiritually is bound to challenge himself as to this feature of circulation -- whether he is answering to it. The ministration from the divine side was in Christ at very great sacrifice and cost, and the apostle shows in Romans 15 how he was in accord with this, but there was to be a return in the offering up of the nations, being "sanctified by the Holy Spirit". That would be an appeal to every one as to the return, and it becomes very practical and tangible. If it is material -- not that we should speak unduly of what is material, but only as Scripture does -- we shall see it is introductory to what is spiritual. Giving in this way accustoms us to the idea of a return; we soon see that God is looking for more than the material

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answer from us; He looks also for a spiritual return -- "the sacrifice of praise continually".

J.J. In Philippians the apostle puts the return on the highest possible level: "an odour of sweet savour, an acceptable sacrifice, agreeable to God", chapter 4: 18.

Ques. Paul speaks of having "mutual comfort among you, each by the faith which is in the other". Romans 1:12. Would that be on a similar line?

J.T. Yes.

D.L.H. Is there not a very interesting scripture in 2 Corinthians 9, referring of course primarily to giving? "Now he that supplies seed to the sower and bread for eating shall supply and make abundant your sowing, and increase the fruits of your righteousness: enriched in every way unto all freehearted liberality, which works through us thanksgiving to God", verses 10, 11. Is that the principle you are referring to?

J.T. It is in a very striking way. Material giving helped the needy saints, but the return that reaches God is not material but spiritual. He obtained thanksgivings from those who were helped by the material giving. It shows how the material develops into what is spiritual for God.

M.W.B. Do you think the Lord has been helping us a little on this line by warning us as to being too local? If we restrict ourselves to our own locality rigidly, we shall militate against this principle of circulation.

J.T. Yes. One is struck in attending prayer meetings, how little, even in prayer, the brethren circulate, how limited are our prayers. I am not complaining, of course, but only pointing out that prayer must be universal as well as local if it is to be according to God. Romans 15 is intended to show the extent and activity of the ministry that God gives through one and another, how far afield it goes.

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The apostle had the "circuit" in his mind, and he enlarges on the idea; he says, "in a circuit", verse 19. He had in mind to go further by means of what he would find in Rome, which was a remarkable thing; "filled with your company", verse 24, shows the working of the organism. He might go to Spain without touching Rome, but that would not go with the idea he had in mind, the idea of circulation, the idea of the organism, so that he enlarges on this circuit of his ministry. It is not merely historical, but to show what pains God takes in causing the light of His grace to meet man and how far afield it goes. Well, there is to be a return surely, and that is what should challenge every one that receives the grace.

J.J.T. So that Rome becomes a "joint of supply".

J.T. That is exactly how it is presented.

C.C.E. I was wondering whether communications were not essential, that is, that practically we should keep in touch with one another wherever we are. Otherwise, how do things come to the ears of the assembly?

F.P. Why was the need from this universal dearth to be ministered to from Jerusalem? The bounty is sent to the brethren there to administer.

J.T. Of course the metropolitan relations of the assembly there still existed. Jerusalem had the metropolitan idea as no other assembly had. The bounty was to be sent "to the brethren who dwelt in Judea"; "sending it to the elders" -- these were those at Jerusalem evidently. Most of the need would doubtless be in the city, compare Romans 15:26. The spiritual need was at Antioch, but the material need was at Jerusalem, and there were joints of supply. This principle is working today in certain parts of the world that one could mention, but then it ought to be general: every one that has received the ministry of the grace of God should be

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challenged as to whether there is a circulation through him in keeping with it.

J.R.S. Does the material ministration put it within the reach of all?

J.T. Yes, for we may say each has something in this sense; but it is a question of what was needed. What was needed at Jerusalem at that time was material supply. It is a question of supply and joints of supply.

M.W.B. We have in John 7 the "rivers of living water" flowing out.

W.C.G. Is the principle seen in 2 Corinthians 10:15: "When your faith is increased, that we shall be enlarged by you according to our rule abundantly?" It is a question of faith; by faith we see the need.

J.T. Yes; faith necessarily enters into all this; without it God is left out.

W.W. It is said of Barnabas that he was "a good man and full of the Holy Spirit and of faith".

J.T. In the work at Antioch he was one of the main arteries, so to speak, of circulation.

W.C.G. He went all the way down to Tarsus to fetch a man whom he could see could circulate something.

J.T. And that was quite an undertaking; he went and found him and brought him to Antioch. It is significant that their service at Antioch precedes this principle of return; they were there a whole year. It says, "And so it was with them that for a whole year they were gathered together in the assembly and taught a large crowd: and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch". The idea of the assembly is emphasized.

D.L.H. Why on this occasion is the assembly, as such, not found ministering to the material need at

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Jerusalem? It was those who were "well off" who seem to have been exercised to give at this time.

J.T. I suppose it corresponds with chapter 13 where you have five distinguished persons, persons who were spiritually well off. These here are materially well off. I think it is to bring out the personnel of the assembly at Antioch, the kind of men that were there. It is a remarkable thing that the Spirit of God should note there were men well off among them. You might say that is a very trivial thing, but it is a matter of importance. If the Spirit of God is concerned about the consequences of the dearth for the saints it is important surely that there are those among them who have the means to relieve the sufferings. If God has caused His grace to reach their hearts, He has in mind their wealth as well; He can use that; it is to be sanctified. That is very practical, and it shows the economy into which we are brought, how God can take us on whether rich or poor, and if we are rich, we can show the genuineness of our love by giving to meet need. Here was need. Agabus announced the dearth, and now, what are these men going to do? It is a kind of challenge to the persons whom grace has affected. What are they going to do? They have no spiritual gift, it may be, but they have this. Are they going to circulate? Are they going to be in accord with the great system God is establishing -- the body of Christ, which was now coming into view? Are they going to move in that current?

J.H.T. Would Hebrews 13 be the blend of the spiritual and the material? "By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise continually to God", and then, "But of doing good and communicating of your substance be not forgetful, for with such sacrifices God is well pleased", verses 15, 16.

J.T. That is good.

D.L.H. Was there not a very fine movement of

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the Spirit of God on this occasion in the Gentiles ministering to the Jews? It was something unprecedented that Gentiles should minister to Jews.

J.T. The point was to bring out this -- that the organism, the body, was coming into view, and that the power in it was overcoming national barriers and prejudices. It is something outside of national prejudices; it has overcome them.

E.J.McB. There was also a return to this contribution, for when Paul and Barnabas came away they brought Mark with them.

J.T. That is the idea; they did not come back empty-handed. It is the spiritual being supplied, that is, what was needed at Antioch. We have to admit the breakdown of John Mark, but we are entitled to view his full history; and so we can regard him as a most important recompense for the bounty of the Gentiles.

J.H.T. Would the apostle in his last journey to Rome bring out this feature of circulation? It says that at Sidon he was suffered to go to his friends and refresh himself -- would that be the material side? Then it says that at Puteoli he found brethren and stayed with them seven days. I wondered if the friends and brethren would suggest the secret side, the disciples being more the public side.

J.T. Indeed. The thought before us is seen strikingly throughout Paul's history.

P.L. Would Phoebe represent an artery in the way of succour, while, on the more spiritual side, we have "Prisca and Aquila, my fellow-workmen in Christ Jesus"; and then "all the assemblies of the nations" thankful, Romans 16. Are they arteries, so to speak?

J.T. Phoebe is a beautiful artery, taking, as undoubtedly she did, the letter from Paul to Rome, with all these beautiful salutations. How much they would accentuate the affections of the brethren at Rome. Then in Aquila and Priscilla you have a dual idea

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reminding us indeed of Christ and the assembly. They are never mentioned apart; they are mentioned six times, I think -- three times Aquila is first, and three times Priscilla is first, as if there were a beautiful blend there. And the way they travel; they first left Rome and came to Corinth, then Paul took them away from Corinth to Ephesus, and they are alluded to there as having the assembly in their house; and then at Rome again they are similarly alluded to, so that they were undoubtedly characteristic of the principle we have before us. How beautifully they would speak of Paul's ministry! How the assembly would be enhanced in their house!

J.J. Matthew speaks of Joseph of Arimathaea as "a rich man", and Luke calls him "a good man". I suppose he comes in in a very special way at the moment of need.

Ques. The first mention of Barnabas is that he was possessed of land and sold it and brought the money and laid it at the feet of the apostles. Acts 4:37, and that is how he got his name. Would that give point to the ministry in Antioch?

J.T. Yes, the noble way he acted.

H.M.S. Would the passage in 1 Corinthians 4 where the apostle speaks of "stewards of the mysteries of God" cover both material and spiritual things?

J.T. In principle it would. Whatever one has, can it be used to meet current need? We shall not need material things in heaven, but we do down here, nor can the testimony go on without them.

Rem. We work with our hands that we may have something to distribute.

J.T. Quite so. Romans establishes the great principles that should govern us as christians, and every one has something. He has his members, his body to offer, so that each may be a contributor.

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Rem. Peter and John gave what was needed in Acts 3.

J.T. Exactly, such as they had. It is a question of what is needed. If it be spiritual ministry, we must be concerned about that, but if material things are needed, we must be concerned about that.

F.S.M. So personal service and hospitality and material gifts might all be the outlet as expressive of appreciation of spiritual ministry.

G.J.E. The material is as much in need of circulation as the spiritual.

J.T. It is essential, and I believe that is just why it is mentioned that God takes account of those men who were well off. Did they say, Let us have a collection? Paul recognized that elsewhere, but there is not a word about it here; it is what "each of them" did. The appeal in this scripture is to persons who have means. What are they going to do? The assembly in Jerusalem has spiritual wealth, and it has ears; it has taken account of what is going on at Antioch, a long way off. It furnished Barnabas, and Barnabas, actuated by the same thought, goes off and gets Saul, so that the spiritual supply is abundant; Jerusalem was characterized by it; and Barnabas and Saul for a whole year taught a large crowd in the assembly at Antioch. Thus the spiritual side was well taken care of. The prophets bring out that there is another kind of necessity in the ordering of God, and how is that to be met? Will Antioch be actuated by the spirit of Jerusalem? The facts stated show that it was; the men with means determine to do something, and do it.

Ques. Is it at all like the offering of the princes in the book of Numbers?

J.T. Very much -- the waggons and the other offerings. The waggons denote provision for Levites -- the Lord's servants; the other offerings were to God -- the dedication gift of the altar.

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E.J.McB. You have a very beautiful case in the wealthy woman of Shunem. She would detain the prophet and see to it that there was a room in her house for him.

J.T. That is a good illustration of what we are considering; she knew what was needed. It is the idea of supplying what is needed. The prophet did not need a well-furnished apartment. He needed certain things, and she supplied them. One would not think of enlarging on the material side, save to bring out the position, the present divine economy, to show how large a place material things have in it, and how "such sacrifices" become an offering to God, a return to Him of thanksgiving.

F.I. Does not the material giving in the normal way proceed from the spiritual circulation?

J.T. Yes; it ought to be promoted by that. If the grace of God has been brought to you, and you are well off, you are moved to give. That is the idea. Here there is not a word about a collection; it is a question of persons who were well off and what they did. And they acted nobly; they acted quite in keeping with Jerusalem. Jerusalem had spiritual princes; Antioch had men well off in a material way, besides there were also certain prophets and teachers, five being mentioned by name.

Ques. Have you in mind that at Antioch there were conditions suitable for the development of these things?

J.T. Yes. God selected that city for this, and I believe the basis of Paul's ministry is there. It is the idea of circulation suggestive of the organism -- the body -- which he develops in Colossians and Ephesians.

Rem. So it takes on a distinctive character; they are called christians there.

J.T. God greatly honoured Antioch, because, I believe, it responded so quickly and intelligently to

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His thought at that juncture -- the truth of the body. It responded at once to Jerusalem, and that is what God is looking for now -- that brethren should be in the knowledge of what He is doing and alert to supply what is needed. That is how the work is to be maintained and the testimony to go on.

A.L. So Paul gathered sticks to light a fire to warm the saints when it was needed.

J.T. Very good. No doubt his service in that was more needed then than a discourse on the mystery!

J.O.S. Paul's sister's son is mentioned in Acts 23 as a joint of supply.

J.T. It shows how God will use what is available; what was needed then was provided by the youth. The saints at Jerusalem are not mentioned as aiding the apostle in his distress.

Ques. Would Aquila and Priscilla having the meeting in their house tend to circulation -- no rent to pay?

J.T. It would. Paul's currency would circulate there. Aquila and Priscilla would be especially the arteries for the circulation of Paul's thoughts, and so would Lydia.

G.J.E. How do we find out what is needed?

J.T. That is another thing. One could mention a great many needs that are current at the present time. It is a question of discernment, but God helps in this, too. He has His men like Agabus, men of understanding, to indicate His mind.

G.J.E. The company must be in the spiritual circulation really to estimate what is needed aright. It is not human indiscriminate giving.

J.T. There was a very fine state of things at Antioch. The course of instruction by Barnabas and Saul brought this about. The disciples were first called Christians there, that name evidently conveying what marked them.

A.J.G. If we are careful about the needs of others

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our own shall be met. Paul says, "My God shall abundantly supply all your need according to his riches in glory in Christ Jesus". Philippians 4:19.

J.T. Quite so. "Give, and it shall be given to you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall be given into your bosom: for with the same measure with which ye mete it shall be measured to you again". Luke 6:38. That is God's way, for God is greatly concerned about His principles. He has established principles in the creation, and these are reflected in the assembly and He is greatly concerned that they should be maintained.

P.H.H. Does God bring in dearth and famine to test us on this line? Tribulation comes in as a result of what was sown in Stephen, but is the dearth something specially ordered of God?

J.T. Yes, it is another side of the position. It was not Satan's work, it was God's. It came in at this time, and the saints are forewarned, and these men act nobly, as we have said; there is an immediate response to the principle or truth that was now coming into evidence in the course of the testimony. What is to be noted here is the personnel, for you will not have much without persons of this kind. It is not merely a certain number in fellowship, but persons of quality -- persons who meet the evident requirements.

F.W. Does the idea of circulation enter into that scripture: "Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that is treading out corn", 1 Corinthians 9:9? Would the treading out the corn be spiritual and the provision for the ox what is material?

J.T. Exactly -- the ox being typical of one who serves effectively.

W.T. According to Matthew's gospel, after the Lord was risen, the chief priests held a council and

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decided to give a large sum of money to the soldiers to circulate a lie.

J.T. That is a striking fact, and has much that corresponds today. This should stimulate us in circulating the truth.

Rem. In Romans 15 the apostle refers to the love of the Spirit.

J.T. It is a remarkable expression. The whole passage accentuates the idea of joints of supply. He was himself acting as a deacon, and he begged the Romans to pray for him; he needed their prayers that the ministry he had for Jerusalem might be acceptable.

P.L. Is not the Spirit's own presence here and His great mission bound up with this great truth of circulation? "He shall receive of mine and shall announce it to you". John 16:14.

J.T. That is what we come to in the assembly. 1 Corinthians 12, as we all know, brings out what the Spirit is in the organism, and I think God would help us and perhaps further extend His operations through us if we accept the obligation of circulating what is needed, as these men at Antioch did: "Which also they did, sending it to the elders by the hand of Barnabas and Saul".

Rem. Hannah met what was needed, when the light was going out; she asked for a man child, and then lent him to the Lord.

M.W.B. In that way would it be right to pray for the raising up of gifts as well as what is needed materially?

J.T. I am sure it would. The need is very great: the work is extending, and the need of pastors and teachers abroad among the saints is beyond expression at the present time. If we accept the obligation, and pray, the Lord will answer.

C.H.P. Do you not think that in the ways of God giving in material things leads to spiritual increase?

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J.T. It is sure to. The assembly at Antioch was greatly honoured; it served God well, affording a pivot on which, as it were, the testimony turned on its course. Chapter 13 brings out the great position the assembly held there; it was so honoured that the Holy Spirit spoke there, saying: "Separate me now Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them".

Ques. Is the principle summed up in David's words: "Of thine own have we given thee" -- everything returning to God?

J.T. That is how it stands. I suppose David represents this thought such as none other. 1 Chronicles 29 is a wonderful outgoing of heart of one who recognized that he received everything from God. That is the principle: "For of him, and through him, and for him are all things". Romans 11:36.

Ques. Does not the state of heart enter very much into this? In the human body circulation depends upon a healthy heart.

J.T. I am sure that is true. The human body is, I suppose, the highest expression of circulation. The idea was there long before it was discovered. It is seen in the great physical creation generally, but it is more precise in the human body, and all we are speaking of leads up to it spiritually. In Ephesians 4 we have the assembly viewed spiritually edifying itself, "its self-building up in love".

W.W. With regard to the ministry of the prophet going down to Antioch, would it flow out the more freely because of the good atmospheric conditions of that meeting?

J.T. That is evident. From the time the light entered Antioch to the beginning of chapter 13 there was steady progress there, so that it becomes an assembly owned of God, taken into His confidence in His service, as we have seen.

Rem. Paul speaks of the Macedonians that "in a

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great trial of affliction the abundance of their joy and their deep poverty has abounded to the riches of their free-hearted liberality", 2 Corinthians 8:2.

J.T. There it is not people who were well off but people who were very poorly off. If the stream of blessing goes back it is seen that God is working, but if it must flow only in one direction it is manifest that something is wrong.

M.W.B. In what way would those who are beginning to take up Christian ground exhibit this principle?

J.T. First in the acceptance of obligation that there is to be a result for God in them. As soon as the grace of God comes into my heart through the gospel, this will normally show itself; and normally it will be in whatever way it is most needed.

J.O.S. Like the Philippian jailor.

J.T. Exactly; he supplied what was most needed at the moment; he washed the stripes of Paul and Silas, and laid the table for them.

F.S.M. There are many who do not know what exists in the way of need amongst the brethren.

J.T. That is true, and then there are those who do not seem to want to know, and the fact that they do not know is no sorrow to them. In the prayer meeting you get very few universal prayers. If I have "ears" I shall know what God is doing.

Ques. Would the principle of circulation be seen in God's ways in the gospel, that it has gone out from the Jew to the Gentile? Is there any possibility that it may now go back to the Jew again? I wondered whether God will work in these closing days among the Jews.

J.T. When God works among the Jews again it will be through a gospel suited to them -- not the gospel which is preached now. They having refused it, Paul says: "This salvation of God has been sent to the nations". There will be no special testimony to the Jews during this dispensation.

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SPIRITUALITY NEEDED FOR PARTICIPATION IN THE ASSEMBLY

Luke 24:50 - 52; Acts 1:1 - 14; Acts 2:1 - 4

By what transpired between His resurrection and ascension, I believe the Lord intended to accustom the disciples to spirituality, a spiritual way of doing and teaching. The Lord had been going in and out amongst them here in the flesh, and although it was manifest that He was personally superior to material things, He moved generally in the acceptance of ordinary human limitations, having taken His place in the likeness of men; whereas in what transpired in the forty days after His resurrection, as we are told in Acts 1, they saw One in a condition entirely unhampered by physical things. In resurrection He had passed out of the limitations to which we are subjected, and into which He had come in grace; He had passed out of those conditions, and moved about unseen by all, save by those to whom He manifested Himself.

I thought that the consideration of the facts in these passages would help us as to spiritual experience, which is essential to the assembly. That is, it is not only composed of persons physically here in this world, as we are today, but there is as it were an unseen state of things in which the Lord moves, not corporeally, nor even in the sense in which He moved during the forty days, because He was still on earth, although He could go in through closed doors, but now that He is gone up into heaven bodily, as Acts 1 tells us, the Holy Spirit has come down to the saints as all gathered together in one place, indicating that what is in view, is that saints are to be together. Whilst they are so gathered together, there appeared to them cloven tongues, as of fire, and "it

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sat upon each one of them". What had happened? The Holy Spirit had come to them and upon them, so that there is in the assembly now another divine Person -- not in a corporeal form as Jesus was, but nevertheless really present and in a universal way. He could be in any number of places at the same time, and we have to become accustomed to that thought, to that condition -- of a Person being here who is able to be in many Places at the same time. The Holy Spirit being a divine Person come down from heaven, is a medium through which the Lord can be known in a spiritual way, as really as when He moved about during the forty days, only that now it is in a purely spiritual way.

Matthew does not record His ascension, neither does John, save that the Lord says, "I ascend", but that is characteristic, not historic -- so that in both Matthew and John we have not the ascension properly.

All the recorded experiences of what occurred after He arose afford tests for us as to whether we can see, as to whether we recognize the Lord as He shows Himself. Mary did not know Him; Peter did not know Him; John says, "It is the Lord". All these instances are to test our state, as to whether we discern Him. The Holy Spirit would open up everything to us, according to John 16. His presence here involved Paul's ministry -- it was only a matter of time before it was developed. The Spirit was the truth, He had come down, He was here, so that it was only a question, in the wisdom of God, as to when the truth should be opened up in its fulness. The Lord says, when speaking of the kingdom in John 3, "If I have said the earthly things to you, and ye believe not, how, if I say the heavenly things to you, will ye believe?" The heavenly things would come out in due course, they would involve Paul's ministry. It is therefore, a question of knowing the

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point to which He leads, and the verse we read in Luke 24 says, "He led them out as far as Bethany"; it is evidently a limit, not the final position; Bethany does not represent that. It represents a circle of love here on earth, which marked the early history of the testimony after the Lord ascended. It is on the principle of the Jewish remnant, but it could not be limited to that, because after the Holy Spirit came, the assembly was there. The actual words "to the assembly" may not be in the passage at the end of Acts 2 -- I understand they are not there in the original -- but it is stated that "the Lord added", without saying "to the assembly". The idea of the assembly came in later, although it was there inherently, but the position is more Bethany, a place of loved ones. The testimony should go forth -- and they returned to Jerusalem -- God showed how patient He was with His earthly people. Bethany was provisional, but the Lord led to that point, and the apostles were intelligent enough to know what was in His mind. Bethany did not represent the full thought of divine counsels; it did not represent Paul's ministry, for instance, nor indeed does Acts 2 although the thing is there in principle. But in Acts 1, they saw Him go up, and as they were gazing up into heaven "a cloud received him out of their sight". He had gone into heaven; and henceforth they were linked with a faith system, and His place here is taken by the Spirit, so that we have spirituality. In the Holy Spirit we have a divine person here who has come down as the means whereby we reach the full thought of God. There is no limitation there; there is no limitation as the Spirit came in. He is the means of reaching the heights and depths of the full divine thought.

Luke 24 helps as to the Lord's leading here. He led them to a point. Bethany does not fully describe the circle now, because it was the Jewish remnant,

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but it afforded a retreat for the Lord; it was love's circle, and the fact that He led them to that point, would mean that it was a provisional thing, and they recognized that, because they went to the temple. But in Acts l they saw Him go up and the cloud received Him out of their sight, the sight period had ceased and the faith period had begun, so that they returned to the city and did not go to the temple. They knew instinctively, as it were, that they were not to be held to the provisional thing -- Bethany -- but go on to the full thought, and they go to the upper room. In Acts 2, "breaking bread in the house" preserves the link with the "upper room", whereas "constantly in the temple" maintains the provisional period of grace for the Jews. The temple corresponds with God's ways on earth, and God is loath to leave His earthly people. The ascended Christ leaves His own at Bethany, "and they, having done him homage, returned to Jerusalem with great joy, and" (without any command) "were continually in the temple", as if they understood.

The comparison between what happened in Luke 24 at Bethany, and what happened in Acts 1, helps us as regards the two things, the one provisional, and the other the final thought which the upper room has in view. The disciples being there, were in a position which answers to the full purpose of God now. Instead of the temple -- an imposing place -- you have an upper room, and certain persons, whose names are given, abiding there, including several women, and Mary the mother of Jesus.

Luke 24 provides for a continuance of God's patient grace towards Israel, and the disciples understood it. That is to say, it is not a question of being formally told what to do in the assembly; we have, of course, principles to go by, but it is not a question only of being told what to do; you should know what to do, and that is spirituality. So in Luke 24

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you have the Lord opening things up for them, and then opening their understanding so that they might understand the Scriptures. The Lord makes His movement to Bethany, and then they make their movement, without a commandment; which shows they are spiritual, they are intelligent, and that is the idea in the assembly; the Lord does not necessarily tell me to give out a certain hymn, I am free to do it, being spiritual, I know what to do. When the Lord went through the cornfields on the Sabbath, He did not pluck any corn, but the disciples went further and plucked the corn. Why is it recorded that they did it? To show that the Lord was leading in the direction of the setting aside of the sabbath, and they acted in the liberty His movement afforded. They plucked the corn, and ate it, rubbing it in their hands. The Pharisees complain of their unlawfulness in acting thus on the sabbath. The Lord defends them. He was indeed Lord of the sabbath and hence could afford the liberty they took. In John 20 He breathes into them, which is a peculiarly blessed feature of the reception of the Holy Spirit -- the Lord's personal breathing into them. So that we have the mind of Christ, and know what to do. Of course this knowledge is based on what God has made known in an objective way.

In Luke 24 you have the priestly service of Christ first, in opening up the Scriptures to the erring ones; He goes after them, He instructs them, and then He breaks the bread in the house, and there was ability to discern who the Person was that so acted -- that is spiritual. Then He vanished; that was to produce a spiritual impression, but an impression which was to act upon them, and it did act upon them, for they returned to Jerusalem. He did not tell them to go back to Jerusalem, but they went back. They went back to the city, "and they found the eleven, and those with them, gathered together"; that they found

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them, showed that they looked for them and they had something to contribute.

Then the Lord appears to them and shows them His hands and His feet. They were not fully ready for Him, they needed to be adjusted, but they were adjusted, and "then he opened their understanding to understand the scriptures". Then He leads them out as far as Bethany, and what will they do after that? What they did, shows that they understood. The Lord's question, "Have ye understood all these things?" enters into all this. They worshipped the Lord Jesus -- He had the right place in their hearts -- they went back to Jerusalem, and were in the temple "praising and blessing God". They were full of joy, they were real witnesses of what grace had effected in them in a positive way. Israel never before had such a testimony! Moses, David, Solomon, or the prophets, never gave such a testimony as this! A company of people (who had been with Jesus, and saw Him ascend to heaven) in the temple praising and blessing God! The temple represented what God was bearing with in grace. He had not left it yet literally, the presence of these men in the temple was, in principle, the presence of God in grace: salvation was there for the Jews notwithstanding that they had murdered Christ. You get the grace side in Luke. And so it says in Acts 2 they were constantly in the temple with one accord -- the testimony of grace went on. But they did not break bread in the temple, they broke bread "in the house".

You do not get the upper room in Luke 24, they went to the temple, but in Acts 1 after they had seen the Lord go up, they went to the upper room, that is the difference. That is to say, the viewpoint in Acts is the assembly, which meant that God had begun a new thing altogether; the link as to the assembly is in the upper room. And here it was

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Olivet, not Bethany, that He went up from, Olivet representing what is spiritual.

"And as they were gazing into heaven, as he was going, behold, also two men stood by them in white clothing, who also said, Men of Galilee, why do ye stand looking into heaven?" It says earlier in the chapter, "And having said these things he was taken up, they beholding him", verse 9. They saw a Man go up. It is not only that they saw Him moving in and out amongst them, but they saw Him go up. He would not, as it were, go, except as in their view. It was important that they should see Him go up. "And a cloud received him out of their sight". That was the end of the sight period, and the period of faith now properly begins. Seeing Him go up is a movement by itself. We have to understand the idea of going up, because we are going up, and the experience ought not to be strange. They receive an impression as they see Him go up, they have the idea of a Man going up, as well as a Man going in and out amongst them in that extraordinary way. "But that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended" -- this latter is to touch our hearts.

The point is in seeing Him go up; and He will come back that same way. It is a question of going and coming. The cloud receiving Him out of their sight was God's act; it was not defective sight in them; God intimated that the faith period had begun. There was nothing more to look at when the cloud received Him out of their sight. "Why do ye stand looking into heaven?" that is, seeing the cloud had received Him out of their sight. It might almost be unbelief, as when the faithless sons of the prophets persuaded Elisha to send men to search for Elijah! A cloud received Him out of their sight; and so we walk by faith and not by sight. That is the adjustment they needed, and they accepted it.

But the Holy Spirit coming in, makes faith as real

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as sight. When you come to Stephen, being full of the Holy Spirit, he is able to look through the heavens and he sees "the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God". You have the power of seeing Him in the heavens -- you see Him there. So that we are living in the faith period, and the Holy Spirit having come in makes it all real.

The forty days stand by themselves, wherever they are presented as a period. Forty is a full period for a purpose. Fifty is ten beyond, which implies, as to what is in view, the full result. The Lord was in their midst, and moved about before their eyes "during forty days", and when the Holy Spirit comes ten days later, there is the full result, and hence, as we get in Leviticus 23, two wave-loaves are brought out of Israel's houses, baked with leaven, and presented as a new meat offering-that is the full result. I have come to the idea, I am to bring the loaves myself. We may take a long time to come to it. In the loaves you have the idea of baking. First of all, there is the sheaf cut down -- that is a type of the Lord Himself. Then there is the corn taken out and milled, ground into fine flour; then there is the kneading process -- the dough, and then the loaf. That is the whole idea -- the baked loaf, that is to say, the Holy Spirit has rendered null the sin that is owned to be in us -- it has ceased to act. There were two loaves required in the type, which would be an adequate testimony to the truth of which we have been speaking.

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THE FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK

John 20:1 - 19; Acts 20:7 - 12

J.T. It may be observed that the synoptic gospels, according to the better translation, refer to the Sabbath in regard to the resurrection of the Lord; whereas John keeps to the first day of the week, and refers to it twice; having in view the spiritual or inward bearing of the resurrection; he is not occupied with outward form. The first day of the week may be connected with that side of the truth, leading in to God, and the counsels of God. The other writers have in view the ways of God -- i.e., the continuance of the testimony carried over from the Old Testament -- the assembly occupying the position for the moment.

The Lord's supper stands in that relation, representing the public side, and the first day of the week the private side. It is the beginning of everything for us, and it does not refer to past testimony, for the assembly was not the conclusion of a previous testimony. The sabbath, according to the synoptic gospels, would indicate that it is linked on with what went before; but John had in view the inward bearing of things, consequently we have an outlet from time limitations and place, into what is wholly spiritual.

S.J.B.C. The first day of the week, then, would suggest the dawn of a new order of things in christianity?

J.T. I thought so; nothing precedes it. The third day, John 2, was the completion of the work of God, but the first day is a wholly new beginning morally, nothing precedes it. In John 20 "the doors were shut" -- you will observe it is in the plural. John is not dealing with the public collective assembly, but with the state of our souls; so the doors were shut --

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there were many; and it is a matter to which each has to attend spiritually.

E.M. I do not quite apprehend your thought in connection with John's reference to the Lord's day.

J.T. Well, I think the Lord's day fits in with public testimony. John refers to it in Revelation, where he is looking towards the resumption of God's dealings with the earth. What one would like to get at is the spiritual progress of saints. Many have part in the public thing, and so far so good, but how many have access to God? How much do we know of the inward bearing of the first day of the week?

When the children of Israel came into the land they were to cut down a sheaf of the first fruits of their harvest, and offer it to Jehovah, and they were to begin to count from the morning after the sabbath, seven weeks or fifty days; Leviticus 23. There is a distinction, I think, between a public beginning -- in a sense that is the passover -- and the spiritual or inward beginning. The passover was to be the beginning of months to them. The people of God began the passover in Egypt; but when they came into the land the sheaf of first-fruits was cut down and offered to Jehovah, and then they began to count. Now it is in that counting, I think, that believers begin to make spiritual progress. What I am publicly in the passover is one thing, and what I am before God in the growth of my soul is quite another.

H.H. In John 3 it speaks of being born anew, has that anything to do with it?

J.T. That is where one's spiritual history begins from the divine side; it is God's sovereign work. The fifty days refer to the believer's exercise and growth in relation to Christ risen. The passover is Christ subjected to the judgment of God publicly. That is where I begin; and that is public. John 6 is the Son of man coming down and giving His flesh for the life of the world.

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S.J.B.C. I do not quite understand what you mean by "public".

J.T. The blood was sprinkled on the door outside; the Israelites went out in the sight of all the Egyptians; it was a public matter; and a household matter too.

S.J.B.C. How would the passover work out with one's public testimony?

J.T. Well, it is the believer's appreciation of Christ as dying for sin: "our passover. Christ, has been sacrificed; so that let us celebrate the feast, not with old leaven, nor with leaven of malice and wickedness, but with unleavened bread of sincerity and truth", 1 Corinthians 5. But then positive spiritual history is when we apprehend not only Christ as subject to the judgment of God, but risen from the dead.

Ques. They had to count seven weeks or fifty days: what is the distinction?

J.T. Well, I think the days are individual spiritual history. In Revelation prophetic time is divided into years and weeks and days. If you measure your life in years you have the aggregate, but, if you take it in days you have detail; they are many, and mean much in the way of experience; for every day brought its own sorrow and its own joy or suffering. But then in those days the Holy Spirit operates, and that is when history is made; and that is what is more private. These fifty days come in between the resurrection and the ascension of Christ. "The world sees me no longer, but ye see me", John 14. We are identified publicly with the Lord in His death. The world saw Him die, but did not see Him rise, or afterwards; "but ye see me; because I live ye also shall live". Now it is in that way you make spiritual progress.

P.S.P. What do the weeks signify?

J.T. I think they indicate collective or assembly history. We make collective progress. The week

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determines in aggregate what progress each has made for God; and the breaking of bread, being connected with the first day of the week, may be said to be the inwardness of it; it leads in to God.

J.M. So whilst the breaking of bread is in itself a material thing, yet by it we make definite progress in our affections.

J.T. Yes. Of course, as to terms, the Lord's supper is the same thing; but it fits in, I think, with the public testimony. "As often as ye shall eat this bread, and drink the cup, ye announce the death of the Lord, until he come", 1 Corinthians 11. A very solemn testimony to the world! It is the death of the Lord we are showing. The Lord's supper is the public collective side.

J.M. The Corinthians had not been affected inwardly.

J.T. It is what is inward that gives tone and body to our testimony. There are many who have part in what is outward, and one would not make little of that, but what gives weight to our part publicly is the measure in which we know the breaking of bread in its inward bearing. In Acts 20, when they were assembled together to break bread on the first day of the week. Paul discoursed to them, about to depart on the morrow, and he prolonged the discourse until midnight; for on that occasion it was not a question of the assembly as at Corinth, as in Acts 18, but the assembly at Ephesus, as the repository of the whole counsel of God; there the door is opened up into eternity. As has frequently been remarked, the breaking of bread suggests the Lord being brought in. It is not the eating of it exactly; we come together to break bread, and that is what brings the Lord in. The breaking of bread is connected with the first day of the week. Primarily the breaking of the bread was the Lord's act. He did it first, and it is in the breaking of it that you have

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the memorial; but the eating of the bread is our fellowship and is public testimony.

P.S.P. You connect the eating with the Lord's supper?

J.T. Yes; to be a supper it must be eaten. But the breaking of bread refers to what He did, and has the inward thing in view. The coming of the Lord is in view. We have an example in Acts 20 where they were assembled to break bread. There was a remarkable group of brothers present on that occasion, including Paul himself; he indeed it was who broke the bread, and doubtless he had a greater measure of the inwardness of it than anyone else in that company. It was there for them all, but the measure of each one determined how far he entered into it.

E.N.H. By "inwardness" do you mean spirituality?

J.T. Well, yes; you see the bearing of the thing. Paul got up and then discoursed; now that discourse is intended to convey to us the counsel of God.

E.N.H. Things "eye has not seen, and ear not heard, and which have not come into man's heart, which God has prepared for them that love him, but God has revealed to us by his Spirit", 1 Corinthians 2:9, 10. God has wrought in our souls, and so we are enabled to enter into that which Paul opened out.

J.T. Paul's discourse refers to what is disclosed of the things of God; the depths of God opened out, and thus what there is to be entered into.

J.M. It indicates how great was the measure in which the apostle himself entered into the meaning of the Lord's words to His disciples when introducing the Lord's supper.

J.T. The measure of my entering in is the measure of my stature; and there are many who do not enter. The entering in depends upon stature. "Through him we have both access by one Spirit to the Father". Ephesians 2:18. "Through him" -- that is

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available to every Christian -- but then he adds, "by one Spirit". If I have not the Spirit I do not enter at all; it is simply a matter of light to me -- precious light -- but that is all.

J.H. So the entering in is connected with the first day?

J.T. Yes; the depths of God are disclosed to us, the things that God has prepared for them that love Him. It is by the Spirit of God we enter in.

E.M. You said if one had not the Spirit it is a matter of light?

J.T. Well, that is all it is.

E.M. I did not think you could have light apart from the Spirit.

J.T. Oh, yes, indeed it is to enlightened persons the Spirit is given.

Ques. Is it your thought that we must have state for it?

J.T. We must have spiritual stature. This is a matter that ought to be looked into, because while many have part in the outward thing, it is by the Spirit we have access to the Father; through Christ we have access by one Spirit to the Father.

H.H. One sometimes thinks of Paul in this connection as having been in the third heaven.

J.T. You can understand if you sat down beside Paul you would be conscious that there was something in him beyond what you had attained to; no doubt his presence would help you; there was a man who himself had been in the third heaven. Now what would it be to him as the bread was broken! And others present on that occasion are mentioned -- Timotheus, Aristarchus, Secundus and Gaius, Tychicus and Trophimus, etc., it was a remarkable gathering representing two continents. But what would doubtless be apparent would be the spiritual growth that was there.

S.J.B.C. It has been a difficulty to me, because

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it appears that they must have been together five or six hours before they actually partook of the supper; yet it was to break bread they came together.

J.T. But it was a special occasion; they came together to break bread, and we hear no more of that; but then Paul discoursed, and he prolonged the discourse till midnight. There is surely something very significant in that. Why should he be discoursing at the Lord's supper? I think the spiritual meaning of it is that he is opening up to them the mind of God; he is presenting the inward side of the truth, the counsel of God. We are not told what he said, but we have to put things together. We see how Paul's ministry is the light that governs us at the breaking of bread -- heavenly light.

Rem. In Acts 20:27, he says, "I have not shrunk from announcing to you all the counsel of God".

J.T. Yes; and as some of us were remarking elsewhere, the chapter begins with Paul embracing the Ephesian saints, and at the end of the chapter they embrace him; between these two embraces you have this account of what happened at Troas, indicating, I think, how things are to be in the assembly. Now when the Ephesian assembly (that is Paul's assembly) is set up, it is set up in the light of the whole counsel of God, and the mutual embracing comes in in this connection. There was "first love" there, and evidently intelligence as to the counsels of God. So that the chapter presents the full height of christianity. And the first day of the week being introduced enables us to understand how matters now are: this is what we have. Paul discourses till midnight, then after the breaking of bread he talked to them a long while, even till break of day.

Ques. Why should he discourse only till midnight, and not till the break of day?

J.T. I think the discourse is what continued on, to the revival of Eutychus, i.e. the revival of the

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assembly, after the decline; the scene has really a prophetic bearing. Paul's discourse marked its earlier history, but as soon as the truth of the assembly was revived I think conversational ministry became very prominent. Paul conversed with them: this marks what we have now.

H.D'A.C. It is more brotherly.

J.T. The conversational method would afford an opportunity for enquiries and mutual interchange of thought.

Ques. In speaking of entering into the deep things of God in relation to the breaking of bread, is it possible for some to go over to that side of things and not others?

J.T. Going over is dependent on state, those who do not doubtless receive some benefit from those who do, because there is an influence which would lead to the desire to enter more fully into those things. The going over, however, is according to the measure in which we have grown spiritually.

S.J.B.C. It is good to remember that we can all start together. We commence as babes; the young men and fathers may get on further, and perhaps leave some behind, but all start together, so that the meeting can commence very simply.

J.T. Yes. The two disciples started together, but "the other disciple did outrun Peter". John 20. The "other disciple" was the one whom Jesus loved.

Ques. Would it be right to say that the remembrance does not take place until the bread is broken?

J.T. Well, that is the way Scripture indicates it. "This do in remembrance of me". It gives the Lord His place. But then it is a question how far I go after that. He is available for everyone of us, but it is by the Spirit. "Through him we have both access by one Spirit to the Father". Ephesians 2:18.

P.S.P. Should not each time we come together to

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break bread become an occasion for a fresh disclosure to our hearts?

J.T. Well, I think there is a manifestation; it is not only that He comes; there is some new feature.

F.W. I do not think you can take people by the hand and lead them into the land of Canaan. If you desire that they should not be left behind the thing is to enlighten them, and so promote exercise. It seems to me that the Lord is at the present time bringing about in the saints such affection for each other that we shall all want to go up together when the moment for the rapture arrives. The Ephesian truth is that God "has raised us up together, and has made us sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus", chapter 2: 6.

J.T. That is an excellent thought; you desire that no one should be left behind. Perhaps there is very little of the familiarity that belongs to love among the people of God. To begin with, you can never love a person if you do not respect him. Some of us were speaking about the cup -- all the company drink out of it. Mark 14:23. Now it might be there are some with whom, under ordinary circumstances, we should not think of drinking out of the same vessel; but the Lord intended that the same vessel should be drunk into by all; they would respect one another so that there would be no sense of unfitness or inferiority. Drinking into the one vessel would suggest the familiarity of love, and I believe that Paul's embrace is another feature of it. Acts 20 is a chapter of holy love, it is a chapter of embraces, of the familiarity and the expression of love. The cup in the Lord's supper is intended to bring that about, and John had this in view. I believe John synchronizes with Acts 20. Having it in view he tells us that the Lord breathed into the disciples -- that is familiarity -- and He says, "Receive the Holy Spirit" and "as the Father sent me forth, I also send

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you". Now, that is the condition we want brought about. The Lord is aiming to bring about the conditions of love. Canticles is a wonderful book as teaching us love in that way. As our brother was remarking, we do not want to leave anybody behind. If you are going in, you want all to go in. The embrace greatly helps, practically.

E.M. It would help to recognize that God has given us the same Spirit.

J.T. I have been noticing that in Acts 8, 9 and 10, where the three families of Noah are set together, the coloured man is converted first. That, I think, is very striking. God would show us that His thoughts are not our thoughts. He cuts across the thoughts of men in that scripture, in taking up the Ethiopian before the Jew or the Gentile.

Rem. Paul connects the collection with the first day of the week.

J.T. That dignifies the collection. It is a good thing to mention, because one feels how very limited we are in our gifts. How small the collection is at times! I think the first day of the week involves spiritual sentiment, it involves the connections of that day, the memories that are aroused in the soul; what the Lord was; what came out then in the resurrection of Christ; what it disclosed on the part of God; what infinite wealth is brought out, and what love expressed!

S.J.B.C. The box is a practical evidence of how the love which is set forth in the Lord's supper has really affected us.

J.T. Yes, I think that is right. So that the brothers who carry the bounty of the saints are messengers of the assembly; they were Christ's glory, 2 Corinthians 8:23. It is the shining out of love in giving: "it is more blessed to give than to receive".

S.J.B.C. Yes, but the glory is Christ's.

J.T. Well, the glory is the shining out of His

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nature: "Ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that for your sakes he, being rich, became poor, in order that ye by his poverty might be enriched", 2 Corinthians 8:9.

F.I. Does the sustainment of the first day of the week carry you in all your movements until next Lord's day? Having tasted it I am affected for the whole week?

J.T. Yes. I am sure that is so.

H.D'A.C. On the first day of the week you are moved to give to the Lord.

J.T. At Antioch we read that those who were "well off" gave.

S.J.B.C. At Corinth they made a distinction between the rich and the poor, and in doing so they were wrong.

J.T. The Holy Spirit indicates that those who are well off may do something by themselves.

Ques. Is giving through the box a greater thing than giving individually?

J.T. I think it is. But certain ones at Antioch determined to give separately, and they did it; they sent it to the elders by the hand of Barnabas and Saul. Acts 11:30. In 1 Corinthians 16 the apostle has the assembly in view, so that every one is brought into it. He says, "On the first of the week let each of you put by at home, laying up in whatever degree he may have prospered, that there be no collections when I come", 1 Corinthians 16:2. In fact I think the whole family is brought into it, because it is something that is done at home before wife and children.

S.J.B.C. It would not follow, of course, that everything laid by for the Lord at home would be put into the box.

J.T. It was for a special purpose.

Ques. Did those who were well off at Antioch give as a company and send it up?

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J.T. Yes, it was sent up in a collective way.

Rem. It was sent from those who were well off, not put through the box so to speak. So that is an instance of a number of people giving directly, who were in a position to do so.

J.T. Yes. But then the letter to Corinthians is, I think, to bring about assembly giving, so that the messengers were messengers of the assemblies.

Ques. What would the contributions that go into the box be used for?

J.T. Well, 1 Timothy 5 helps. An aged person is to be a charge on the assembly, for example. I think the poor come first; Paul was enjoined to remember the poor, so I think the first claim on us is actual need.

W.M. Perhaps you had something further to add to what you said about giving to the Lord?

H.D'A.C. We call Him to mind, we have been thinking of Him and His love. He has given Himself; now what are we going to give? I think the Lord's supper exercises us very much as to how we respond in regard to what we have in this world.

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THE LORD'S DAY AND THE FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK

Revelation 1:10; John 20:11 - 23

J.T. The Lord's day in Revelation points to the power that the Lord has, pending "the day of the Lord" when it will be exercised universally; the power He has to apply to any situation, to any circumstance or combination of circumstances now. It fits in with modern times -- His intervention to make a way for the spiritual element, so that it might have free action. It makes way for what the first day of the week signifies. John says, "I became in the Spirit"; he would be in the state in which he would realise his privileges, but there were external conditions that interfered and the Lord would deal with these. So that he turns "to see the voice" -- a remarkable expression -- and sees the Lord, in judicial habiliments. These habiliments represent certain traits and powers that were in the Lord, and which are alluded to in the addresses to the assemblies; they imply the release that we are enjoying now, so that the truth as it stands related to the first day of the week, that is, to the assembly in its proper relations, is available. John's gospel, which was no doubt written later, would open up what the Lord, in this judicial presentation, would effect; it opens up the spiritual side, so that we have an outlet on the first day of the week.

Ques. Would not the lordship of Jesus apprehended in the soul bring about subduedness, and put us in an attitude to take in the blessings that are in the Lord's mind in regard of the first day of the week?

J.T. It would indeed, so that Matthew would go with the idea of the Lord's day in that respect. It is a question there, of what the saints are told to do;

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in John it is rather what we do by spiritual instinct and understanding. Matthew is what we are told to do, "Behold, I have told you". Matthew 28:7. It is a question there of whether you can take orders from one subordinate to the Lord; it is delegated authority in Matthew. According to that passage, an angel directs the women, and as they are moving under that direction the Lord meets them and greets them. Matthew would emphasise the importance of subjection. No one can ever be adjusted, unless he learns to do what he is told by divine authority, by whomsoever it may come to him -- for the Lord uses whom He will.

A.M.H. Are you connecting two thoughts with the Lord's day, first, that He has secured it for us to give us liberty in a material sense, so that we have actual freedom from our ordinary avocations; and then, that there is a spiritual movement of the Lord in relation to that day too?

J.T. Yes; the Lord's day as owned publicly by the governments as a day of rest; and there is also liberation in a spiritual way from the thraldom of the religious system that has grown up; the Lord's day is owned and we are free in it. The day might be observed publicly, and yet the saints not be free spiritually.

P.L. "This is the day that Jehovah hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it", Psalm 118:24. Would that be taking advantage of it spiritually?

J.T. It would. There is the application of authority to ourselves, we learn to do what we are told to do. The hierarchical system is not wanting in authority of a kind, for there is the authority of darkness. There is nothing so potent in holding people, as the authority that is vested in "religion" as it is called. But alongside of that we have to be on our guard against the democratic element; we have to see that there is such a thing as authority. "Behold, I have told you", the angel says. It is not only what he said,

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but the personality of the one who said it. He represented heaven. There is such a thing as that.

A.M.H. With what are you connecting that at the present time?

J.T. With the need among the saints generally and locally as to the recognition of authority, that is authority as seen in men who through experience with God have weight. They are themselves subject, as the angel was.

P.L. Is not John himself in the beginning of the Revelation the great example of that? He is there as the bondman; He leads as in subjection.

J.T. Exactly.

Ques. Do you connect the idea of authority with the Lord's day?

J.T. Yes. It is not only the idea that He has a day, but that He dominates a day. He does not dominate the world, but there is that principle as a testimony and it will soon be asserted generally. The first day of the week has little force aside from the Lord's day and what it means.

P.L. Paul introduces the first day of the week in 1 Corinthians 16, after he has brought in the authority of the Lord.

J.T. Yes; he brings it in then as expressing the feeling or sentiment that should enter into giving. It is not mere religious sentiment, but spiritual sentiment; the day stands for that. There are such memories connected with it, that it produces spiritual feelings.

A.M.H. We have no evidence that the Lord's day was one of liberty at the beginning. Is not the fact that it is free now the result of the Lord's interference on behalf of His people?

J.T. That is what I was thinking. He has exercised His power to give it to us.

A.M.H. So that we should value it and use it on the lines which He has provided.

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J.T. Exactly. There is a voice in it. John turned to see "the voice".

Ques. "I became in the Spirit". Is that a suitable state suggested?

J.T. I think so. It is what becomes us, and would follow subjection.

Ques. Does the Lord's day suggest that the Lord is in supreme command and can carry out His thoughts?

J.T. I think so. The day as we have it, reminds us that He has acted, not in a general way, but as exercising His power for His people now -- showing His hand as necessary. You can reckon on that, and in so far as His hand is apparent, there is release and liberty for us.

P.L. In that way His heirship to the whole scene is witnessed in the exercise of His rights.

J.T. The 'dominical day' is not an empty term; it means that He can put forth His power. He opens and no one can shut (Revelation 3:8). He does it as necessary. He is not working miracles, in the ordinary sense, but His hand is at work and faith discerns it.

Ques. And is it not helpful that the Spirit is brought in?

J.T. It is. John is a model; he says, "I became in the Spirit on the Lord's day".

Ques. Would it show how active the Spirit would be in putting us in condition to receive impressions from the Lord? It is encouraging in that way to have, not only the Lord, but the Spirit. Some of us may find it difficult to shake ourselves free from the world system, but is there not great encouragement here?

J.T. There is, and what was remarked about Matthew is very important especially for christians who are under the authority of darkness. What is meant, I think, is the hierarchical system. It has authority over the soul and people are held. Authority according to God is seen in persons that have no authority in religious systems, yet it is there. "Behold, I have told you".

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A.M.H. Are you putting that over against the whole of the Jewish system?

J.T. Quite, or the corresponding system now; it is the same thing -- the authority that holds people. That is what the Lord deals with almost immediately in the addresses to the assemblies. He recognizes faithfulness at Ephesus in refusing those that said they were apostles and were not. Revelation 2:2. They claimed authority but were found liars. Then they hated the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, but later on these things appear -- that sort of authority. So that you come down to Rome, in Thyatira, where it is full blown. But there is another authority; the spirit of authority runs through the addresses to the assemblies. The Lord may use this one or that one, but it is authority. He is speaking, and unless we learn to discern that voice and do what it says, we shall never reach the truth of the assembly.

Ques. Would affection for Christ separate us from the authority of darkness, and so make room for what the Spirit would disclose?

J.T. It would, but it is one authority against another; there is the authority of darkness that has asserted itself all down those dark centuries, and in the addresses to the assemblies there is the authority of the Lord. That is the principle. There is authority in Him and He warns the assemblies. He may use this one or that one, but it is His voice; He is telling you what to do. "Behold, I have told you". And if you do not do that, you remain where you are, and suffer the penalties that He speaks of. But John hearkened to His voice; he turned to see it, and what he saw he describes; and he is true to his bondmanship, carrying out the Lord's instructions.

A.M.H. You remarked that it is not merely what is said but the one who is speaking. Does it not look as if the weak point from the beginning was this question of giving the Lord His place? The Dark

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Ages came in afterwards, after the Jewish system had been broken up.

J.T. Yes. The letters to Corinth were intended to assert the Lord's authority, and in 2 Timothy, "Let every one who names the name of the Lord withdraw from iniquity".

Ques. Does the expression, "I became in the Spirit", mean that there is exercise of soul before the Lord to give Him His place, and hear what He has to say?

J.T. I think it does; it is the attitude of your soul as in assembly; you become in the Spirit. We do not reach the assembly save on those lines. We are generally merely theoretic. John had actually become in the Spirit.

Ques. What do you mean by being theoretic?

J.T. That we have right forms and all that kind of thing. I think what is meant in this chapter in Revelation, is that John was in a state suitable to the assembly in spiritual relations; but it is as if the Lord would indicate that before that proceeds, external things must be adjusted; so that the things John was to see and write about referred to adjustment. In chapters 2 and 3, the assembly is to be reached through adjustment. We acknowledge that a change has come about; things are not what they were. Whilst we have access to the Lord in a spiritual way we own there has been defection. But the change is met by the Lord; He has power to make a way for us in spite of the fact that things are not what they were. He sets before us an opened door. So that we take up assembly relations in a humble way; we acknowledge that things are not what they were. Were it not for His intervention, there could be no practical realization of the assembly at all.

A.M.H. To "remember ... whence thou art fallen" is to be a continuous thing; Revelation 2:5.

J.T. That would produce a suitable spiritual condition.

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So that the remnant books of the Old Testament become exceedingly helpful. What is recorded is for us, so that we might act in a comely way in the changed circumstances.

P.L. Ezekiel sits among the captives and he gets visions of God, chapter 1. Is that the lowly state, the confessed state of the assembly's public position which calls forth these disclosures from the Lord?

J.T. Quite so; you have many such thoughts in Ezekiel. It comes very close home to one -- "Behold, I have told you". You say, it does not matter who says it, but it is not only what is said but the person who said it. The idea of representation is never given up. Hence here it says, "he signified it, sending by his angel, to his bondman John". Revelation 1:1. There is never any thought of the Lord giving up representation. It is not only what the person says, but himself.

P.L. Would not the words be added to in moral weight by the countenance and raiment of the person who speaks? The clothes of the hierarchy would be in contrast to Matthew 28 where it says, "his look was as lightning, and his clothing white as snow". Is not authority made attractive in the spirit of the one who wields it?

J.T. In Matthew it is a question of enforced authority; the keepers become as dead men; Matthew 28:4. It is there a question of the power that there is, and that never ceases.

Rem. The countenance of the angel corresponds with the countenance of the Lord at the transfiguration according to Matthew. His face shone as the sun.

J.T. It is that sort of thing; it is not earthly. The sun is supreme, dominant; the angel's "look was as lightning" -- the power was irresistible. The hierarchical system is immediately in evidence in Matthew 28, I mean the root of it. As the women went, doing what they were told to do, the Lord met them. That is a very remarkable thing, but it is as we do what

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we are told to do that the Lord meets us. We are able to take an order from a subordinate, but he is the Lord's representative. Then it says in verse 11, "And as they went, behold, some of the watch went into the city, and brought word to the chief priests of all that had taken place. And having assembled with the elders, and having taken counsel ..." We see there, how the counter-authority works -- the lying system which has become widespread. But the Lord respects those who do as they are told to do, and who act on heavenly authority. That is our deliverance. The moving in obedience to divine orders undermines the whole hierarchical system.

Ques. Representation is not merely gift, but is rather beyond that?

J.T. It would be certain heavenly features. The seal in 2 Timothy 2:19 is a sort of divine mandate, whoever has it. It says, "having this seal". It is a moral thing; you cannot deny it. On the one side of the seal is, "The Lord knows those that are his", and on the other, "Let every one who names the name of the Lord withdraw from iniquity".

Rem. The idea of representation would have marked Timothy as well as Paul.

J.T. Paul wrote to him so that he might represent him.

Rem. We should not forget the rest of our brethren, and that is to be in evidence by our demeanour, and the way in which we speak of things, and in our activities. The Lord knows those that are His, but we cannot pick them out, save as separated from iniquity.

J.T. So that if you meet a Christian you say to him, Be as I am, for I am as you are. "Be as I am", is a question of what is imperative; "I can do no other", as one said -- and there is moral authority in that. It is a question of the will of God; the will of God carries moral authority in the whole

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universe. In these democratic times it is a great thing for young people to see that there is such a thing as "I have told you", and that as soon as you begin to do what you are told to do, the Lord meets you and salutes you. There is something there to salute! "As they went", it says in verse 9. It was "as they went" too that the lying set in, verse 11. So that the enemy is endeavouring to nullify the authority that is conveyed in obedience.

Rem. Anyone who loves the Lord would like to obey Him in the way in which you are speaking. Normally our hearts would love to please the Lord.

J.T. "He that has my commandments and keeps them, he it is that loves me", John 14:21. It is a very forceful way of putting the truth.

Then I thought John 20 is the spiritual side hinging on all this. We have the first day of the week mentioned twice in the chapter. It is a question not so much of authority but of spiritual instinct, and the movement that marks it; and of spiritual affection and what it culminates in, that is, "I ascend". It is not "I will ascend", or "I have ascended", but "I ascend". It is characteristic.

Rem. Would headship come in there?

J.T. I think it does; I think it is stamped on the chapter. Take the handkerchief that was upon His head, something was done to it; it was folded in a distinct place by itself. Special attention is called to it. It was a distinct part of the wrappings or the cloths that were on the Lord's body, and the sequel, I think, is to amplify that Mary moved in that light as the Lord met her. Peter and the disciple whom Jesus loved represent intelligence. It is well to note that they ran and their pace is noticed, one outrunning the other. It is a question of spirituality and of movement, and they were affected by what they saw in the tomb. They saw nothing living in the tomb, but Mary did. They saw the cloths; that

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is to say, they saw something that indicated to them that material things were not touched by the action of resurrection; that the action of resurrection left material things untouched, save the handkerchief, which latter seems to me is the action of some person to call attention to the head. In verse 8 it says, "Then entered in therefore the other disciple also who came first to the tomb, and he saw and believed". That is, he saw this; he saw the "linen cloths lying, and the handkerchief which was upon his head, not lying with the linen cloths, but folded up in a distinct place by itself". That is what he saw, and it says he believed.

A.M.H. What do you think that means, that in some way it was conveyed that the Lord was risen?

J.T. It was not a clandestine action to take the body away, because the cloths were there. There had been no struggle to get out of them. It was resurrection; that is to say, John is presenting the spiritual side. The writer is the one who believed.

Ques. Would what you are speaking of, follow on being in the Spirit on the Lord's day?

J.T. Yes. Being in the Spirit would open up eternity to you; and that is what is in view in this chapter. It is the first day of the week here, not the Lord's day; it the spiritual side of it. Then what you see in Mary are instincts. There is much ignorance abroad today and the deliverance is by observing the authority of the Lord. But then I may do that, and yet be wanting in intelligence, and I think Mary represents that. It is said that she stood at the tomb weeping without; evidently she was not believing, for there was evidence before her that the Lord was risen and this should have caused rejoicing. She had great affection, but she did not understand. The disciples went to their own homes. You say, That is not to their credit, but there is a certain amount of credit for they believed. They

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went home believing, but she did not -- she was weeping.

A.M.H. She is seeking the Lord, but without any apprehension as to the conditions in which she would find Him.

J.T. Yes; what conditions is He in now? She thought about somebody carrying Him away. John did not think that; the position of the cloths indicated to him that nobody had carried Him away, that material things have nothing to do with it. What do we know about that?

Ques. Would not affection lead you in the way of adjustment?

J.T. That is what comes out, but then, we must not speak too disparagingly of the two disciples that went home; better at home believing, than at the tomb unbelieving. They had no question as to the resurrection. Still more light would have come to them had they remained by the tomb.

Rem. They had seen something that Mary had not seen up to that moment.

J.T. Quite; they were ahead of her. They believed because of what they saw in the tomb without the angels. Had they waited they would have been confirmed, of course. Mary saw the stone rolled away; she thought somebody had done it and taken the Lord out. She was, for the moment, unbelieving.

P.L. The yield for the Lord depends on faith.

J.T. We need to understand what is spiritual; the two disciples understood that the resurrection had actually happened by what they saw in the tomb; they believed; they had spiritual understanding.

A.M.H. That is confirmed by the fact that there is no reference afterwards to their disbelief of her report.

Rem. Verse 14 says she "beholds Jesus standing

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there, and knew not that it was Jesus". Had she been believing, she would have recognized Him.

J.T. But the facts stated show unmistakably that, she loved the Lord, and He knew and valued this.

Ques. Is that why she gets this wonderful communication in advance of the disciples?

J.T. That is it; she had affection and the Lord knew this. We should notice the movements that are recorded. The passage says, "As therefore she wept, she stooped down into the tomb, and beholds two angels", verse 11. There is not a word about the cloths; faith took account of them. To see two angels is more a matter of sight.

Ques. Would you say a word as to the angels being one at the head and the other at the feet? verse 12.

J.T. I think they recognize the dignity of the Person; it is "where the body of Jesus had lain".

A.M.H. Do you think the Lord might come amongst us as together and not be recognized? Is that suggested in Mary at first not recognizing who He is?

J.T. I think that is right. Angels represent the Old Testament way of administering; it was the dispensation of angels. That is not christianity. Of course they have part in this dispensation, but as ministering spirits on account of those who are heirs of salvation.

Ques. Referring again to Mary's affection, would not the passage show that what marked the two disciples was intelligence? Whilst the Lord greatly values affection, would this not suggest that there should be intelligence with it?

J.T. I think that is what the chapter would impress upon us, that there should be affection combined with intelligence, but I think affection is brought into great evidence as marked by certain instincts, which lead in the right direction. It says,

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"Mary stood at the tomb weeping without. As therefore she wept, she stooped down into the tomb, and beholds two angels sitting in white garments, one at the head and one at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain. And they say to her. Woman, why dost thou weep? She says to them. Because they have taken away my Lord, and I know not where they have laid him" verses 11 - 13. That is, she is thinking of some persons; she says "they". She is not thinking of God; God is evidently not in her thoughts. Who were the "they"? You speak in that indefinite way, while there is confusion and darkness in the mind. "They have taken", she says, and "they have laid him". That is darkness; no one had taken Him away; the Lord was risen. He had said in this gospel He would raise up the temple of His body, but she is thinking about others, whoever they were. If you were to ask, Who are "they?" she could not tell you. It is confusion, and I believe that describes many of us -- a vague confused state of mind, hardly knowing what we are thinking about. But then there is affection and this is honoured; "my Lord", she says.

Rem. That is what He was to her.

J.T. Yes; then it says, "Having said these things she turned backward". Why should she do that? She could not, perhaps, tell you; it is a question of instinct, and movement that flows out of it. There is something there that moves in the right direction. She saw a gardener, as she thought; it says she knew not that it was Jesus. "Jesus says to her, Woman, why dost thou weep? Whom seekest thou? She, supposing that it was the gardener, says to him, Sir, if thou hast borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away", verses 14, 15. There was confusion of mind and darkness. Still the affection was there; there was the groundwork of the assembly -- the spiritual element -- so the Lord says, "Mary". There is now a link;

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the person is recognized by Him. It says. She, "turning round, says to him in Hebrew. Rabboni, which means Teacher". She is now on the high road to heavenly light. He is "My Lord", but now my "Teacher". You feel how we need that; we need the Lord Himself to instruct us spiritually.

P.L. It is not delegated authority now. In headship the Lord takes us into His own hands.

J.T. Quite so; He adjusts Mary at once, and evidently she is very adjustable. She is constituted a messenger of the greatest message as to our privileges.

Ques. He "calls his own sheep by name, and leads them out". John 10:3. Would that be suggested here in His saying "Mary"?

J.T. Exactly; so that she is personally recognized in the presence of all these great things.

Ques. Is she beyond the disciples now?

J.T. I think she is; she carries the message to them. And she knows how to do it; it is not done in an uncomely or official way. It says, she "comes bringing word to the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that he had said these things to her", verse 18. That is very comely.

Ques. I suppose the Lord's question to her, "Why dost thou weep?" would be in the light of the situation? It was not a time of weeping.

J.T. No, indeed; it was a time of victory. It was the first day of the week on which Christ arose from the dead.

P.L. Would the teaching convey the imparting of suited sensibilities to accompany the light?

J.T. Exactly; the Spirit of God explaining the meaning of the word would show that that is the point. We need teaching.

Rem. That is the great need today. We have had light in abundance, and things have been distinguished

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for us, but it is now a question of coming under His headship.

J.T. Yes. It is what is spiritual. And that is the point here -- being led into spiritual things. So that He says, "Touch me not". Why not? The natural mind of course would wish to do it. But He says, "I have not yet ascended to my Father". All that is spiritual; the link would be with the One who ascends.

Rem. It went beyond resurrection.

J.T. It did -- that is important to notice.

Rem. I suppose, in a way, all the redeemed companies come into resurrection, but "My brethren" and ascension conveys a further thought.

J.T. Quite so; there is dignity; and I think John being in the Spirit involves that we come back to that. John's gospel would, I think, come in after Revelation, as an adjustment, there is a removing of hindrances. However ignorant we may be, there is a way made now for us into the highest things and to the greatest privileges. That is what this chapter would suggest to us, so that it is now not only doing what you are told to, but coming under the teaching of the Lord as Head, as One who has ascended.

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THE ASSEMBLY AS SET UP UNDER PAUL'S MINISTRY

Acts 17:1 - 4; Acts 18:1 - 11; Acts 20:17 - 38

J.T. It may be helpful to consider the assembly as seen at Thessalonica, at Corinth, and at Ephesus. From these scriptures, taken rightly in connection with the epistles that refer to them -- Thessalonians, Corinthians and Ephesians -- we may see what the assembly is as set up under Paul's ministry.

The epistle to the Thessalonians teaches us what the assembly was in its beginnings as marked by youthful freshness and vigour; the assembly at Corinth serves to indicate what it is in connection with the testimony here in this world, and the assembly seen at Ephesus indicates what it is in connection with the future; "to him be glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus unto all generations of the age of ages". It was in my mind to consider the assembly in these connections, so that we might have an increased apprehension of what we are called to. One observes in moving about among the Lord's people many who are possessed of the idea of a congregation only, and with little conception of what it is to assemble. The Lord in speaking of the assembly, said that the gates of hell should not prevail against it, and that is another feature of it.

A.E.F. Is the thought of the building one aspect of the assembly?

J.T. The Lord said, "On this rock I will build my assembly".

A.E.F. You were saying that a great many of the Lord's people had the thought of a congregation and not of the assembly; does that result from not realizing that the Lord is building up His people in what is spiritual?

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J.T. Yes, and that those who form it are not only living but intelligent. Paul says, "I speak as to intelligent persons". 1 Corinthians 10:15.

A.E.F. The Thessalonians were a wonderful company. They "turned to God from idols to serve a living and true God".

J.T. Yes. The apostle in his short visit among them had not only opened up what we have in Acts 17, but he must have opened up the full revelation of God and His Son. The Thessalonians were awaiting His Son -- God's Son -- from the heavens, showing that they were set up in relation to divine Persons. It is with that in view that one suggested these scriptures. Most of the Lord's people, in regard of what is collective, have very little thought beyond a congregation, so that we are little removed in this respect from what is around us. A congregation is not what the Acts presents to us; it presents an assembly.

J.McM. What is the difference between being assembled and gathered together?

J.T. Being gathered together is very near to the thought of the assembly; it is a mutual thought; still the word "assemble" implies that we are together intelligently as in relation to each other. In Acts 1 you have the statement made of the Lord, "being assembled with them", verse 4; in verse 6, "they therefore, being come together", He spoke to them about the coming of the Spirit. When they were gathered together they asked Him about certain things; this might correspond to a meeting for prayer. One's thought was that we might see briefly what the assembly was as seen in these three localities, so that we might learn in what is presented how to assemble, and hence how to be in the assembly and of the assembly, and what we are as of it.

First you have in Thessalonica the work of God developing in a few weeks. The apostle, it says,

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"went in among them". In going in among them he acted somewhat in accord with the Lord during the forty days; He assembled with them. He moved about among them, and in doing so He would convey to them what it was to assemble. That is a point of great importance to note in regard of this subject, and it is well for young christians especially to take account of how experienced ones act, because in the epistle to the Thessalonians the apostle says, "Ye became followers of us", and in their turn they themselves became models, "ensamples to all that believe in Macedonia and Achaia". Then further it says, "ye, brethren, have become imitators of the assemblies of God which are in Judaea in Christ Jesus". In that way the principle of example in spiritual things is set up in the Acts, and the principle, too, of following an example. Christianity is based more on that than on precept. The Lord brought in divine thoughts from heaven and exemplified them in the midst of His people, and the disciples thus became children of wisdom. In those who followed after the Lord -- the apostles -- the same thing was carried on, so that in a place like Thessalonica the disciples took note of what Paul did as well as of what he said.

E.B.G. There is not much record of what the Lord did during the forty days?

J.T. It is considerable if you take the four gospels. Take Matthew; in that gospel He maintains a certain distance; He takes the attitude of royalty; He sends a message to His disciples to tell them that He would see them in a certain mountain in Galilee. He does not go into the midst of them, but "coming up spoke to them, saying, All power has been given me in heaven and upon earth". He is setting before them the principle of administration, and so maintains what you might call a certain dignified reserve. In Luke he comes among them -- "he himself stood

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in their midst" -- and impresses upon them that He is a real Man: "a spirit has not flesh and bones as ye see me having", and so He shows them His hands and His feet, and eats before them. And then, having already expounded the Scriptures to two of them. He opened their understanding, that they might understand the Scriptures. All these things happened after He rose, and were for spiritual education.

E.B.G. I was thinking rather of what you said, that it was more by example than by precept that we are taught. Did you speak of that in connection with the Lord during the forty days?

J.T. Yes, I did. They were in the habit of assembling, according to the Acts. Peter says, in regard to the apostle who was to be appointed in the place of Judas, that he should be one of those "who have assembled with us all the time in which the Lord Jesus came in and went out among us", so that the principle of assembling had already been brought forward; but in the forty days, I apprehend, the greatest impressions were given, because He was forming them inwardly for the assembly. We have not any definite word as to His assembling with them during the period of His public ministry, but we have in Acts 1. He, "being assembled with them, commanded them", etc.

J.McM. In what way were the Thessalonians imitators?

J.T. I think it suggests how young believers are led on by example -- following those through whom the light has come to them. It is quite of God that we should take note of those through whom the light comes to us, and see what they do. But then the apostle goes on to say "and of the Lord", "ye became our imitators, and of the Lord". If we followed the Lord first and then another, it would be

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to tend to apostasy; but to follow another and then to follow the Lord is another thing.

Ques. Would it be diverting if you were to give us the education in Mark's account of the forty days and of John's account?

J.T. Mark has in view that we should know how to be levites. He tells them to preach the gospel to all the creation, and it says that He gave them power to cast out demons in His name; then He sat at the right hand of God, and it says that the apostles went forth preaching everywhere, the Lord working with them. This is to fit us for levitical work. John's account would establish us here as worthy of His confidence. We are not much, even if we have the instructions of Matthew, Mark and Luke, if we are not trustworthy -- if He cannot confide in us. The Lord says to them in John, "As the Father sent me forth, I also send you. And having said this, he breathed into them", and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit"; then is added, "Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted to them", that is, He gives them, as it were, a signed cheque to be drawn to any amount. One of the greatest and most important features of our position is that we are to be trustworthy -- that the Lord confides in us.

W.J. Is that why you get "friends" in John?

J.T. I think so. You get the expression in Luke too, but particularly in John.

S.B. At the commencement of the same gospel we read that the Lord did not commit Himself to man.

J.T. That is it; He did not trust Himself to man, but in chapter 20 you have those to whom He can commit things.

E. Is that what you find in Thessalonians?

J.T. I think that what was developing amongst them was the "work of faith, and labour of love, and enduring constancy of hope, of our Lord Jesus Christ,

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before our God and Father". Wonderful result of a few weeks' growth! Thessalonians sets before us a company of young Christians laying hold of divine ideas at the outset. They are addressed as the "assembly of Thessalonians in God the Father". No other assembly is addressed in that way, for the reason, I think, that God would signalize them on account of the rapidity of their growth. He saw that the working of the divine nature in them had developed rapidly.

W.J. Is that applicable to every assembly -- "in God the Father?"

J.T. I think it means that they were peculiarly lovable -- "beloved by God". I connect it with the statement in Hosea, "When Israel was a child, then I loved him". It was what the young assembly was to God as developed normally in love and intelligence.

Ques. Would they be conscious of their position?

J.T. You will remember what is said about the company in Cornelius's house: "the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were hearing the word". It was an energetic action of the Spirit corresponding with the action of the father on the prodigal; it says he "fell on his neck, and kissed him". God has His own way of making His love known to you -- falling on your neck and letting you know that you are a special object of His affections.

Ques. You were saying that this assembly followed Paul and followed the Lord. Would you say that the Lord commits Himself to those who became models for young believers to imitate?

J.T. I think He does. It is important for young believers to take account of those through whom the light comes. We have to take account not only of what a brother says, but of what he is; the apostle says, "Knowing of whom thou hast learned them". In

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this letter, 1 Thessalonians, Paul draws attention to the type of man that he was among them. He wanted to set a right example before them, and the sequel shows that they took note of that, because he says "ye became our imitators, and of the Lord". The verses in Acts 17 tell us that he went in among them. The Lord has set that example: "The Word became flesh, and dwelt among us".

A.E.F. These young Christians got the divine thought of the assembly from the very outset. They did not drop into congregationalism. They were preserved from that by the example of one who took character from the Lord.

J.T. Quite so. If the apostle had assumed a clerical attitude he would have formed them into a congregation.

A.E.F. The thought of the assembly in that way is that there should be reciprocity one toward another -- mutual responsibility and response.

J.T. So that in chapter 20, to carry forward the thought, we are told that quite a few visiting brothers were present at Troas: Sopater, Aristarchus, Timotheus, etc., and the localities to which they belonged are given. Besides these brothers of note, the great apostle himself was there, and then it says, "And the first day of the week, we being assembled to break bread": not Paul and these visiting brethren and we, but we; that is, every one who was there. Every one cost the Lord Jesus exactly the same, see Exodus 30; they were all alike in that sense. The "we" that Luke uses shakes the whole foundation upon which the fabric of congregational Christendom is built. What lies at the foundation of the assembly is the "we" of mutuality. Now I think that Paul, in entering in among the Thessalonians, would convey that to them; although he was an apostle, yet, as a Christian, he was one of them.

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A.E.F. And then they became followers of the assemblies of God in Judaea.

J.T. Yes; and they themselves became models to all those that were in Macedonia and in Achaia; that is district influence. There is not only the local influence, but we get here a local company exercising district influence; then in the next chapter he enlarges on what he was as having gone in among them: "For ye know yourselves, brethren, our entering in which we had to you, that it has not been in vain ... but even as we have been approved of God to have the glad tidings entrusted to us, so we speak; not as pleasing men, but God, who proves our hearts ... but have been gentle in the midst of you, as a nurse would cherish her own children". That is the kind of man that the apostle was as having gone in among them. It is of great importance to notice this, because the young are coming on, and the older ones -- as the Lord continues the testimony -- necessarily pass away. Now, what example is being set to the young? As life develops, it has to be guided and moulded, and hence the great importance of models.

O.G. You would say that the apostle is anxious to develop in the assembly features seen in himself; he is calling attention to spiritual features.

J.T. Quite. And then you will notice how the apostle would call attention not only to what he was as a nurse, but as a father also. "Ye know how, as a father his own children, we used to exhort each one of you". He goes on to remark then on the fact that they had received the word, not as the word of men, but as it is in truth the word of God, and works up to the thought of God, and then he says, "ye, brethren, have become imitators of the assemblies of God which are in Judaea in Christ Jesus". They took note of what God was doing far beyond the limits of their own country. We have to

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disallow sectional and national feelings. The assemblies in Judaea were far away from Greece; there were no natural links at all between them. Paul says to the Thessalonians, "For ye also have suffered the same things of your own countrymen as also they of the Jews, who have both slain the Lord Jesus and the prophets", etc. The Greeks and Jews were alike opposed to the testimony, and hence the futility of recognizing national sentiment, because however favoured a nation may be, when the testimony of the Lord is brought to the front it will always be opposed.

Rem. It is only in the assembly that that is taught.

J.T. It is not taught in the world. One would be looked upon as a traitor in certain circumstances to disregard national feelings, but when it comes to the things of God, this epistle shows how valueless national feeling is. We see here that which would have prevented the division between the Eastern and Western branches of the assembly, that is, mutual regard. The assembly of the Thessalonians had become imitators of the assemblies of God in Judaea.

J.McM. Would the apprehension of the truth of "My assembly" deliver us from national feeling?

J.T. It ought to. It is very striking that these young christians got hold of the idea of the assembly so quickly.

W.J. Is it because it does not belong to the world?

J.T. Yes. There are the Jews, the Gentiles, and the assembly of God.

A.A.T. Is it in the assembly that gift has a place?

J.T. Yes, that is what we get in Corinth. God has set certain in the assembly; in Ephesians they are not said to be in the assembly. In Corinthians the assembly is taken up to set before us the order

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becoming the house of God, so that the gifts are said to be set in it.

A.A.T. You are emphasising the gain of assembling together, and oftentimes gift has such a prominent place that perhaps we lose the gain of being assembled.

J.T. Gifts have their place, and in 1 Corinthians the subject is that of gift from the beginning of chapter 12 to the end of chapter 14; but what underlies the exercise of gift is that the saints come together in assembly. All that enters into the position at Corinth. What is emphasised in connection with the apostle going to Corinth is that he lodged with a man and his wife who were tentmakers, because they were of the same craft, so that we are obviously in the presence of something different from what we get at Thessalonica.

I.R. Before passing to the Corinthian side, should not the freshness and vigour of the Thessalonians be characteristic of the assembly today?

J.T. What you get in the book of Joshua, among many other things, is the idea of springs. Achsah says, "Give me also springs of water. And he gave her the upper springs and the nether springs". The Spirit of God records that fact again in the book of Judges, and one has often wondered why it is so, why there is a second record of that simple occurrence. I think I see now the thought of it -- that the spirit of the assembly is set forth in Achsah; she had in view that there should be continual freshness, that, in spite of the decline, there should be the vigour of the spring. If you have that, you will have freshness and vigour among the saints. I have no doubt that John's ministry is intended to bring that about today. God reverted to that in Hosea when He said, "When Israel was a child, then I loved him"; at the time he spoke Ephraim had

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grown old; "Gray hairs are here and there upon him, and he knoweth it not", Hosea 7:9.

A.A.T. The congregational idea would contribute to that.

J.T. It would indeed. "We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren". Where there is love there is freshness.

Ques. Does Judges present the parallel to these days?

J.T. Yes. At the beginning you find a mutual state of things. Judah says to Simeon, "Come up with me ... and I likewise will go with thee ... and Simeon went with him". There you have a brotherly state of things; they are acting together. The Lord had indicated who should lead, and the one who leads says to his brother, "Come up with me". That is what you begin with, but it does not continue very long, because Ephraim asserted his pre-eminence among his brethren. Judges records sorrowful decline, but the spirit that should govern the saints is seen in Achsah; she provided for freshness.

Rem. So that the vigour and freshness should be continued to the end.

J.T. Exactly. We get the same thought in the end of the book of Revelation: "Whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely".

A.A.T. The freshness at Thessalonica should have continued throughout their history.

J.T. Quite. Springs retain constant freshness, so that the assembly as "in God the Father" would suggest that they loved God and so were beloved by Him. God loves us, but He looks for our love for Him.

E.T.S. Would you say something more about Paul dwelling with the tent-makers?

J.T. It is interesting to note the difference in the

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divine narrative; when Paul went to Thessalonica it is said, as we have already remarked, "he went in among them", but at Corinth it is "finding ... Aquila ... and Priscilla ... came to them, and because they were of the same trade abode with them, and wrought". He lodges with them because they were tent-makers. We have, in that way, a suggestion that there should be the absence of all that ministers to man and man's pride; he would bring down high thoughts, and to bring down high thoughts Paul lodges in a house at Corinth as a tent-maker. What room is there for human greatness in any of us in the light of that? We know the city of Corinth was famed for its architecture; it has come down to our own time. Paul, although the great architect of the assembly, is dwelling in a lodging-house as a tent-maker. Thus we learn, as we approach Corinthians, that we must not value that which ministers to the pride of man, and anything that gives him a status in the eyes of man must be rigidly refused, otherwise we do not know how to assemble.

A.E.F. If they were in line with the architecture of their city they would not appreciate the tentmaker.

J.T. That is what the apostle had in mind. The Lord had much people in that city, and probably some of them were engaged in architectural occupations; some of them were nobles, we know. At Thessalonica of the chief women not a few believed, and they were enjoined to work with their own hands; that is remarkable; they perhaps had servants to wait upon them, but now they are to work with their hands. At Corinth he says, "not many noble", but there were some noble, and they were presently to know that the one through whom the light came to them was a tent-maker, and they had to come down to that; hence it says, "Other foundation can no man lay than is laid, which is Jesus

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Christ". That refers to the order of man presented by Paul.

Ques. Had he got beyond the "citizen of no mean city?"

J.T. I think he had, and we have to get beyond anything of that kind that attaches to us, whatever it is. If we come together in assembly, as he says here, we have to disallow all these things; they were eating in groups, maintaining social distinctions; so he says, "it is not to eat the Lord's supper".

G.F. They were not in the good of his preaching; he preached Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

A.G. Would the idea of the tent-maker emphasize the pilgrim character of the assembly?

J.T. I think it does; it emphasizes the unimposing character of the structure outwardly. We are a poor and afflicted people, only we have the knowledge of divine wisdom. One has to accept being in the world in a very ignominious way. Paul says, "God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world ... we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things", 1 Corinthians 4:9, 13. He tells the Corinthians that they had reigned as kings without them. It is not the time for anything imposing; the present condition of things around us is a direct denial of what the apostle brought in. I have no doubt that the Holy Spirit in what is written here had the whole history of christendom in view. Architecture finds its greatest place in religious buildings.

E.B.G. I suppose that the more we see the dignity of the assembly on its spiritual side, the more we shall be prepared to take up its pilgrim character.

J.T. Quite so. Let us now look for a moment at Ephesus. It shows what the assembly is to be for God for all ages. The assembly is not mentioned in the Acts after chapter 20, showing that that chapter

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presents the assembly in its highest aspect. It is the "top stone", as you might say; so that the chapter begins with an embrace and it ends with the saints falling on Paul's neck and kissing him ardently. Therefore it is a love chapter.

Ques. Had you in mind that Christ loved the assembly?

J.T. There is a very remarkable expression in verse 28: "Shepherd the assembly of God, which he has purchased with the blood of his own"; the assembly is brought forward there in its true intrinsic value to God, purchased with the blood of his own; hence it is not only what it is to Christ, but what it is for God in this chapter, and it is what it is for God for eternity. If we take up the epistle and compare it with this, we find that "in the assembly in Christ Jesus" there is to be glory to God "unto all generations of the age of ages". That is, it is the vessel of the glory of God for ever.

Ques. Do you connect the glory of God with His love?

J.T. Yes, I do. You see what He gave for it; He has purchased it "with the blood of his own" -- expressing in the strongest way what it has cost Him.

A.E.F. I suppose the counsel spoken of in chapter 20 is the outcome of His love?

J.T. Counsel discloses what a place the saints have -- that they should be "holy and without blame before him in love"; the assembly is composed of such. The epistle to the Thessalonians teaches us what they were before our God and Father here in this world; Ephesians teaches us what we are in the counsels of God, that we shall be "holy and without blame before him in love".

A.E.F. What is the point of the prayer in Ephesians? Is it that there should be a present apprehension?

J.T. Yes; the point in chapter 3 is that you might

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be strengthened with power by His Spirit in the inner man, that you might be fully able to apprehend (it is not comprehend, no one could comprehend; it is apprehend) "what is the breadth and length and depth and height; and to know the love of the Christ which surpasses knowledge; that ye may be filled even to all the fulness of God". It is all a question of the competency of the work of the Spirit in us.

J.McM. Is there any other way in which the glory of God could be displayed except through the assembly?

J.T. I think not; not fully.

J.McM. In what way is it seen now?

J.T. I think it is effected down here by the operations of the Spirit. The love of God in our hearts is reflected in our walk and ways and works. God is thus glorified in us.

J.R.G. As formed in love, does the assembly present a trustworthy vessel? "I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God".

J.T. Yes. The vessel was great enough to receive it. Note it is all the counsel of God.

T.T. Is the thought here that the assembly should be characterized by giving? "Remember the words of the Lord Jesus, that he himself said. It is more blessed to give than to receive".

J.T. Quite. So the messengers of the assemblies who carried the bounty of the saints were said to be Christ's glory. That is a remarkable expression.

Rem. "Whom he has justified, these also he has glorified".

J.T. Yes; so that already we are possessed of the glory. In the future the assembly is seen coming down out of heaven from God, having the glory of God, and then she is glory to Him.

R.G.H. I suppose that is where John's ministry and Paul's meet?

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J.T. Just so. John brings God down here; Paul presents man to Him there.

W.J. Do you learn sonship in the assembly?

J.T. Yes. The assembly is formed of sons; that is the secret of the fact that she comes down. The assembly is formed in sonship -- what is for Him, so she comes down; that means that she has liberty; she comes down out of heaven. I think it is well to note that the saints are His inheritance; "the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints". Think of what we are! What I would say to every christian is, Learn how to assemble; do not come in and sit down merely as an irresponsible person, but come in as one of the company acting responsibly and intelligently. "I speak as to intelligent persons: do ye judge what I say".

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PRESENTATION

Jude 24, 25; Colossians 1:21, 22; Ephesians 5:25 - 27; Genesis 47:1 - 10

The thought I have in mind is presentation which, perhaps, is not so familiar in the United States as it is in monarchical countries; such as in the United Kingdom where presentation to the sovereigns is customary, and is regarded as of moment by those who are presented, as enhancing their dignity and subsequent life.

In reading these scriptures, I have in mind the idea of being presented, not to a mortal man, however exalted, but, as in the first scripture, presented faultless in the presence of divine glory -- presented by God Himself; and in the second scripture, presented by the Godhead "to itself" (for that is how it should read); and in the third scripture, presented collectively as the assembly, by Christ to Himself.

All these scriptures bear on the future; although Colossians includes the present also. The passage I read from the Old Testament represents figuratively the presentation of the saints in their de facto circumstances down here -- presented to the Supreme One by Christ, as related to Him.

I look to the Lord, as I trust you do, to help, so that this great subject may be set out not only clearly but spiritually; for we are to communicate spiritual things by spiritual means; and I would commend to you first, dear brethren, the ability of God to do what is indicated.

As you will observe, Jude's epistle is short and was occasioned by the incoming of the great apostasy.

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Jude had in mind to write about "our common salvation", but he tells us that instead he felt obliged to write about the apostasy, which is now a matter of history -- past and present: never more so than at present. This great apostasy, in its malign character and power, was weighty enough to bear heavily upon Jude; but he is filled with buoyancy. In the closing verses of his letter is a buoyancy that one would seek to have infused into our souls, as having to encounter the very darkness of which he speaks; we are in the midst of it. As John says in his first epistle: "As ye have heard that antichrist comes, even now there have come many antichrists, whence we know that it is the last hour", chapter 2: 18. It is a solemn consideration, dear brethren, calculated to oppress our spirits; and we should feel it. God has great regard for those who feel with Him -- and "the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations" Ezekiel 9:4; but then there is an outlet in this holy buoyancy indicated by Jude; it is a doxology. There is much more of this in the Scriptures than we are apt to think -- this spirit of praise; and it should be ever with the brethren; we should not be behind the Old Testament believers, who had, besides many songs and ascriptions of praise, five books of Psalms. We are enjoined indeed, as filled with the Spirit, to speak to ourselves "in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and chanting with your heart to the Lord". Ephesians 5:19. Jude helps in this; he leads with others; and what occasions it is the ability of God to keep the saints from falling and to set them with exultation blameless before His glory -- a very weighty matter.

We have already been dwelling a little upon how the most enlightened, such as Isaac, could fail, for who, in Isaac's day, had the light that he had? Think of the light in that man's heart! He was the son of Abraham, miraculously begotten, one of the

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unique babes in Scripture, and yet he went to Abimelech! Thus, dear brethren, in a crisis, the most advanced of us is capable of turning aside to human resources. But Jehovah loved Isaac too well to allow him to go further. We may all thank God for His interventions so that we should not be turned aside, that we should not go the whole road upon which we have entered through our unbelief. In order to stop Isaac, God appeared Himself to him. How great a privilege! And He says to him: "Go not down to Egypt: dwell in the land that I shall tell thee of. Sojourn in this land". Genesis 26:2, 3. He would say to every one of us, hard pressed though we may be for our very bread and butter, "Go not down to Egypt ... sojourn in this land". God is better than Egypt.

One would speak to the brethren as to those who have light; not only as to their salvation but as to heavenly principles: "Sojourn in this land", and you will prove what it is. Let not a hard moment divert you -- God says, "I will be with thee", verse 3. He will be with you in it. The river of Egypt with all its fructifying power is not to be compared with Jehovah as "with us". He says, "I will be with thee and bless thee ... and I will multiply thy seed", verses 3, 4; and then He tells Isaac that the reason for this is on the ground of obedience: "because that Abraham hearkened to my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws", verse 5. That was the position. The position we occupy has been won by others: let us not forget that! It is for us ready-made ground; but nevertheless it is the land of promise; at whatsoever cost it has been acquired, we are on it: let us not leave it! Abraham acquired it; it was for Isaac to occupy in grace and dignity; not as a servile person in the land of Abimelech seeking his patronage and protection. We must never take up that attitude and become

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slaves to the world's principles, whatever they be. Isaac was to be in the land of Canaan in the dignity of a heavenly man and he remained there. In spite of his failure in denying his wife, God gave him a wonderful victory. Dear brethren, there is a voice telling us to stay in the land.

The Lord says, "and ye shall have tribulation ten days". Revelation 2:10; not eleven days. All is divinely controlled. Isaac found that the land yielded bountifully in spite of the famine; and by staying in the land we shall find that in the hour of pressure God will be with us; He will enlarge us and prosper us, till we reach Beersheba, the well of the oath, where water was found, Genesis 26 -- where one is on sure ground with God, where we prove that He is doing great things for us according to engagement in which it is impossible for Him to lie. In a promise and an oath we have a strong consolation, and a hope entering "within the veil, where Jesus is entered as forerunner for us, become for ever a high priest according to the order of Melchisedec". Hebrews 6:19, 20 -- that is the position faith takes up.

Jude has in mind that we should be in the light of the ability of God to keep us. According to his epistle, the surroundings are dark with regard to the apostasy; but as you look up to God -- "to him that is able to keep you without stumbling", verse 24, and as you look around on the brethren all is bright and stable. Jude does not fail in the midst of the outward circumstances; he tells us about love feasts, he speaks indeed about "spots" in them, but nevertheless there are love feasts. And then he goes on, "But ye, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God", verses 20, 21.

How are we to get through as this one and that one are taken away, honoured men of God on whom we have leaned? And it may be that others will be

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taken if the Lord tarries. "One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh". Ecclesiastes 1:4. The coming generation is apt to be depressed, thinking, How shall we get on? Jude says in an exultant tone: "But to him that is able to keep you without stumbling, and to set you with exultation blameless before his glory, to the only God our Saviour, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, might, and authority, from before the whole age, and now, and to all the ages", verses 24, 25.

With regard to the verse in Colossians, the apostle, in the same spirit of worship as Jude, speaks of "giving thanks to the Father ... who has delivered us from the authority of darkness, and translated us into the kingdom of the Son of his love", verses 12, 13. Think of that, dear young people, of being translated from the authority of darkness by the Father. How worthy He is of our thanks! -- and then translated into the kingdom of "the Son of his love" -- such a kingdom as that! The apostle then, by the Spirit, proceeds to speak of Jesus as "firstborn of all creation; because by him were created all things", verse 16; not merely as the instrument, but in His own power they were created; all were created by Him and for Him. How the Spirit of God would imbue our souls with the knowledge of the Person of the Lord Jesus Christ! Then it goes on to say, among other things, "In him all the fulness ... was pleased to dwell". Marvellous fact! And then "by him" the Deity would reconcile all things to Itself. "And you ... has it reconciled in the body of his flesh through death", verses 21, 22. God, dear brethren, has acted for us in this way, "in the body of his flesh through death; to present you holy and unblamable and irreproachable before it", verse 22 -- to present you. Think of being before God thus! without blame in His presence. God has done it; not only the reconciliation but the

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presentation "before it". What a footing to be on! It is what God has done Himself through Christ.

Going on to Ephesians -- I wanted to come to the thought of Christ and the assembly. I am following the line of presentation and I hope everyone is enquiring. Am I in this? The passage says, "Christ also loved the assembly, and has delivered himself up for it", verse 25. He had a great object in view. Paul says elsewhere "who has loved me and given himself for me". Galatians 2:20. The verbs are in the past tense. It is wonderful to go back hundreds of years -- to the cross -- and to think that Christ loved us then. But then he says here, He "loved the assembly and has delivered himself up for it" -- with an object in view -- its presentation to Himself.

It is remarkable that with the men of faith, you get nothing in the way of a conspicuous marriage. Marriages are common among us, and much is made of them, but the Lord Jesus is still waiting for the marriage celebration; not for the taking of a wife. When Rebecca came to Isaac, nothing is said except that she alighted from her camel. Isaac was out meditating in the field; he had come from the well; he was alone in meditation, representing typically the Lord Jesus in solitariness, in resurrection, the heavenly Man. Rebecca represents not the bride exactly, but the wife. There was no celebration; not even with David or Solomon do you get that. It is all future. Thus the Lord loved the assembly and gave Himself for it, "that he might sanctify it, purifying it by the washing of water by the word", verse 26. What for? -- "that he might present the assembly to himself glorious", verse 27; it is His own action. Jehovah brought Eve to Adam; but Laban did not come with Rebecca, nor was Abraham present. The Lord Jesus will present the assembly to Himself in the coming day, all glorious. Dear brethren, this washing of water by the word is

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service that He is carrying on with that in view; not only for our comfort and blessing generally, but in view of the presentation.

How are we to be presented? The washing of water by the word contemplates intelligence. A person that is washed, knows what is being done; it is by the word. When He washed the disciples' feet. He said: "What I do thou dost not know now, but thou shalt know hereafter", John 13:7, and that is true now; the "hereafter" has come. "I speak as to intelligent persons", says the apostle in 1 Corinthians 10:15. The Lord would respect us and give us to understand that we are intelligent; that we know what He does. "The marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife has made herself ready", Revelation 19:7. She has made herself ready. She understands what is suitable now. May we not say that this is the outcome of this intelligible service of the Lord -- the washing of water by the word? The saints are being washed and sanctified collectively, so as to be presented collectively. One great thread running through Ephesians is that we become accustomed to collective relations. The Lord's supper is intended to accustom us to collective relations to one another; to know how to sit down body-wise -- assembly-wise; to know how to wait together without being irritable or impatient; to be together as in assembly in quiet spiritually intelligent dignity. The assembly is a living organism in which we are set according to divine wisdom and in the power of the Spirit of God.

Just to amplify this in a practical way, I want to dwell on Genesis 47; for it contemplates us, as I said at the outset, in our de facto conditions here. In this chapter there are mentioned five brothers -- shepherds. Compared with Pharaoh -- this great man -- what are these five shepherds? And then an old man whose occupation had been that of a shepherd,

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how will he go in to the palace? how will he appear? how will they all appear in the presence of the Supreme? -- for that is the idea.

This is a very practical scene; it is a question of what we are in our every-day lives; what our occupations are; what we are, as men reckon. Sophisticated men in this world would say, The only man in Jacob's family who is a gentleman is Joseph. Were the retainers of Pharaoh and Joseph to see these five men and the old man -- Joseph's father -- go in, they would be thinking, There is not a gentleman amongst them; they to be presented at court!

Well, that is how we are challenged; but then, Joseph knows. It is a question here of moral superiority; not of measuring up to human standards, for these can never be introduced among the people of God. There is a law called the rule of new creation and that is to govern these matters; it is not the law of Egypt -- the law of this world. Joseph understood this, we may say, in presenting his father and brethren to Pharaoh.

I speak of Pharaoh, as in some sense representing God; for that is how we have to face this matter; not merely historically, for it has a moral bearing. It is a question of how these poor people, despised of this earth, shine, and of what there is in them that is of God which the world does not know. John says, "See what love the Father has given to us, that we should be called the children of God. For this reason the world knows us not, because it knew him not", 1 John 3:1. We are not known now, but presently some qualities will shine out which will eclipse any the world possesses. Joseph, in the type here, instructs his brethren so that the traits that mark the people of God should appear. That is the point he makes. They were to say to the king, "Thy servants ... have been occupied with cattle from our youth even until now". They were

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men of feeling and heart; men who have had to do with living creatures, and cared for them.

Dear brethren, let us take that ground! Shepherds were an abomination to the Egyptians, but the first man of faith, Abel, was a shepherd. Spiritually, it is a most dignified occupation. There are five of them here. Joseph would say, I am not taking in ten, but five. He makes his selection. There can be no doubt that he did not wish to make any show in numbers, but rather in quality, for quality is greater than numbers. Five is a simple number; you can count it on one hand. It is remarkable how it is used in Joseph's ministry, and no doubt, has its significance. These five men come up to the mark; there is no show of external greatness or worldly refinement about them; it is a question of what is acceptable to God; how things measure up in heaven. These men measured up to that standard. Accordingly, to Pharaoh's question, What is your occupation? they answer, "Thy servants are shepherds". And they add, "To sojourn in the land are we come". If we are in this world in any way, we are not here to stay. Let no christian act in this world as if he were here to stay; he is not here to stay. Joseph's brethren were in Egypt as sojourners. If they were to say more, they would add. There is the land of Canaan, the land promised to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob; theirs was, in type, a heavenly country. They did not come to stay; they were in Egypt as sojourners; therefore, it was a question of getting through. Pharaoh says to Joseph, "Thy father and thy brethren are come to thee ... let them dwell in the land of Goshen". It was the best of the land of Egypt -- thus God provides for His people as they maintain their true character. They are to "dwell alone". It is said of Israel, "Lo, it is a people that shall dwell alone, and shall not be reckoned among the nations". Numbers 23:9. These

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sons of Jacob were to continue their occupation in Goshen. We are in a time of unemployment, but God is an Employer. He is looking for persons who can do His work; He has plenty to do, and He pays well. It is a question of submission to His will. One feels, more and more, that all the current pressure is to bring out the brethren; and if we give God His place, He will give us employment; and we will also get employment for "necessary uses". Pharaoh gave instructions to give some of Joseph's brethren employment.

Thus the people of God are dignified; they shine out in their own way -- not in the world's way. The idea is that the saints bring into this world the principles of another world, and that is what these people did. They continued in Egypt their occupation as when in Canaan. The service of shepherds is spiritually a reflection of Christ, who is the great and good Shepherd.

The final word is about Jacob to show how the moral superiority of the saints comes into evidence. Joseph set Jacob before Pharaoh, and there is no enquiry about his occupation here. There was not a man like Jacob in the whole universe, and Pharaoh understood that. Jacob was the depository of the blessing of the promises of God. Think of what light he had in his heart! Some of you young people may be serving day by day in workshops with superior men of means, but how little they know what you have in your heart that is not present in theirs. You possess dignity that will exist when the world is gone forever; and so it was with Jacob. He blessed Pharaoh as he came in, and again as he went out. He blessed him twice, to bring out, I think, the great moral worth that there is amongst the people of God. They are despised outwardly, but their great moral worth shines. It shines in the presentation by Joseph; that is to say, typically, by

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Christ. Think of the dignity that attaches to us as related to Christ. But there is also intrinsic dignity. This is particularly seen in Jacob. In the consciousness of this he blessed Pharaoh, who did not resent it. Pharaoh asked him, How old are you? That is a great test. How many years have you been converted? How much can you show for it? How much have you acquired in the knowledge of God and of Christ? Jacob answered, "Few and evil have been the days of the years of my life, and they do not attain to the days of the years of the life of my fathers". Genesis 47:9. Who are these fathers? Isaac and Abraham. Abraham lived to be one hundred and seventy-five, and Isaac lived to be one hundred and eighty. These ages were beyond what was customary in Egypt, and ages like these would command the respect of Pharaoh, great as he was. And so it is, beloved, that age in experience with God, in the enjoyment of His promises. His purpose, and His love makes us greater than any. It was so here; Jacob blessed Pharaoh as he came in, and he blessed him on the way out. Pharaoh made no enquiry as to his occupation as I remarked. It is not now a question of occupation but of growth, of maturity -- what one is in his life with God. The twenty-four elders in the book of Revelation correspond; indeed, the Lord Himself is seen there with hair "white like wool". It all alludes to what I am saying; and so everyone is challenged as to how old he is. What have you got to say for your years? It is not a question of how long you have been in fellowship; no, that is not the point. The number of years since I was born is not important; that may count for nothing: it is a question of a man such as Jacob -- a man who has been with God. Can you bless anybody? Jacob could bless the greatest man. It was no sham; it was the blessing

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of a man who had been with God, the depository of the mind of God, and of the promise of God.

I think, dear brethren, you will be able to see how great a subject this is, and how it challenges what is brought in now in our everyday circumstances; also as to our faith in God and our knowledge of Him -- of His ability to keep us from falling and to present us faultless in the presence of His glory with exceeding joy.

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THIS IS THE HOUSE OF THE LORD GOD

1 Chronicles 22; 1 Chronicles 23:1

J.T. We get here the circumstances in which the house of God was to be built. The previous chapter tells of the great sin of David in numbering the people; God did not permit the building of His house on those lines. It is not with Him a question of large numbers. Thank God, He does not discountenance large numbers, but David seems to have had his own greatness in view in numbering the people. He said, "Number Israel from Beersheba even to Dan, and bring the number of them to me, that I may know it", chapter 21: 2. It was Satan's suggestion, according to this book, and the great sin had to be dealt with, but in dealing with it God acts in grace. David acquires the altar, and he had a word of acceptance from the Lord -- "At that time when David saw that the Lord had answered him in the threshing-floor of Ornan the Jebusite, then he sacrificed there. For the tabernacle of the Lord which Moses made in the wilderness, and the altar of the burnt offering, were at that season in the high place at Gibeon. But David could not go before it to enquire of God; for he was afraid because of the sword of the angel of the Lord", chapter 21: 28 - 30. The sword had already been sheathed in relation to the threshing floor, so that David is able to say, "This is the house of the Lord God, and this is the altar of the burnt offering for Israel". He was able to name the place. He bought "the place" we are told, and now he names it.

I think as we go over the ground thus, we may see how the work went on under youthful influence. Solomon "is young and tender", and he is made king by David in his old age; so that Solomon is under the good influence of David. This principle

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enters typically into the assembly; the house of God is worked out on these lines.

Rem. The sixth verse stands out here -- "Then he called for Solomon his son, and charged him to build an house for the Lord God of Israel".

J.T. We see the place Solomon has as representing youthfulness; "young and tender", nevertheless he has this place. He replaces David in David's own mind, answering to the mind of God as to His house. Solomon has the gain of David's discipline. David makes great provision for the house, and that according to divine discrimination; it is not left to Solomon. We are to make room for youthfulness, as in Solomon, one brought up in subjection -- the son of his father. The young are apt to be rivals of those who are older. Solomon was never a rival to David -- he was David's son brought up by him; but, according to the mind of God, he was to do the building.

"David commanded to gather together the strangers that were in the land of Israel; and he set masons to hew wrought stones to build the house of God. And David prepared iron in abundance for the nails", etc. It is very interesting that the nails come after the stones.

Ques. Why are strangers mentioned in verse 2?

J.T. They represent those who have no rights and are entirely subservient, hence available for any kind of work. The "wrought stones" are types of the saints, who are said in 1 Peter to be living stones.

It is remarkable that the nails should come in so early. "David prepared iron in abundance for the nails for the doors of the gates, and for the joinings; and brass in abundance without weight; also cedar trees in abundance".

Ques. Is there a ministry today which answers to the thought of the mason -- a ministry that would help the saints to work things out locally?

J.T. Here the masons are for hewing the stones.

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The work here is not as yet setting the stones in their places, but preparing them; this is preparatory work. There is a great deal of that, of course, needed in all of us.

Ques. Would you say there is in this chapter age, wisdom and youthfulness combined?

J.T. There was age or experience with David and youthfulness and wisdom with Solomon. I think we ought to see that full provision is made for the exercise of wisdom in youthfulness. We can find this combination only as the youthful are in subjection. Solomon was not simply David's son, but a son unto David. Proverbs 4:3.

Ques. Has this chapter in view to secure sons according to the mind of God for the house of God?

J.T. That would be the effect of it. Those who are old have what the young cannot have, that is experience, and the young as associated with them get the gain of this. But in Hebrews 11 we read that the elders obtained testimony by faith; that is to say, they did not obtain testimony because they were so many years old; that is not in itself anything; but it was by faith. One might be 100 years old and not have that; and yet a comparatively young man may have it.

Rem. You get experience and wisdom through age in Paul, and Timothy would gain by this as his child in the faith.

J.T. Exactly. Paul spoke of himself as "such an one as Paul the aged". It was not simply that Paul was aged, but he was "such an one as Paul the aged". There was perhaps no other one like him. He suffered martyrdom, I judge, at a comparatively early age, but judged in the sense of experience with God, he was "old and full of days", he had a life of great compression. Solomon, as seen here, could not have that, for he was "young and tender".

Ques. What is conveyed in the thought that the

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house could not be built by a man who had shed much blood?

J.T. It would shut out the military thought. The house should not remind us of judgment, and the shedding of blood means that. Judgment begins at the house, but the house should not remind us of that. The sword is sheathed, but not where it executed its judgment. The judgment was over Jerusalem, but the sword is sheathed in answer to the sacrifices on the altar at the threshing floor of Ornan the Jebusite. The sword in that sense is out of sight. Judgment has ceased. The house is to be a place of affection. Of course David's ministry was necessary, as setting forth the judgment of God, but it is to be shut out from the house itself. An eternal abode with God must not remind us of judgment. There were indeed inside the temple the cherubim, but not with the drawn sword as in Eden. In eternity there will be subjection and rule, but not necessarily involving the execution of judgment, for there will be no need for that. The great thing now, in the light of our chapter, is the foundation of the house. The sword is sheathed, and there is the youthfulness of Solomon in building it. The house of God is a place of affection.

The house here has a much wider thought than in Samuel. The point here is that the idea of largeness is to be emphasized. "The house that is to be builded for the Lord must be exceeding magnifical, of fame and of glory". He needed plenty of scope or room in the building. Thus David bought the place from Ornan.

Ques. Why are the nails provided so early?

J.T. The principle of resurrection comes in. There can be no binding power, save as we apprehend resurrection. The nails are for "the doors of the gates, and for the joists", or couplings. The doors are to be held firmly, and also the joists or couplings of the building. This can only be by the truth of

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resurrection. The nails suggest strength; they are made out of iron. Iron, I think, is a symbol of strength in Scripture.

Rem. The Lord Himself is alluded to as a nail.

J.T. Yes, "a nail in a sure place", Isaiah 22:23. You can hang things on a nail, but they also have a wonderful power of holding things together.

N.K.M. The thought of strength is brought out in what the apostle says to Timothy, "be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus", and then he says, "Remember Jesus Christ raised from among the dead ... according to my glad tidings".

J.T. That is the idea exactly. The apostle apprehended resurrection as the binding power to hold things. It is in the resurrection of Christ that the power of God is demonstrated.

Ques. Do the two lines go on together, the preparation of the material and the construction?

J.T. I think they do. The Lord provided the material in abundance before He went up, as answering to David; and in going up into heaven. He takes the Solomon place, and all is put together. It is from heaven that the structure is reared up. He has gone in to the place of affection. He is the Son of the Father's love. It is in that character that the building goes on.

It is a great thing to get hold of the work of Christ as answering to David in laying every enemy low. David says here, "Is not the Lord your God with you? and hath he not given you rest on every side? for he hath given the inhabitants of the land into mine hand; and the land is subdued before the Lord, and before his people", verse 18. That is the position now in Christ as answering to David. The structure goes on under Him as in His place on high, as gone up into heaven.

Wm.C. Do the twelve in the beginning of Acts represent the thought of iron? They chose one who

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was "a witness ... of his resurrection" to be with them. Acts 1:22.

J.T. That is a good suggestion. Everything depended then on the wisdom which marked Peter; and those staying in the upper room represent quality as the result of workmanship, that is Peter and the other ten, the women, Mary the mother of Jesus, and His brethren. Then certain matters had to be faced. How are they to go on in the light in which the Lord has left them? What were they to do? I think Peter standing up and making his first address is like a nail; there was ground of assurance and stability in what he said. It would hold them together; and then there is the selection of another apostle, which was very important. The Lord could surely have settled that matter himself before He went up, but He did not. Nothing is said about it. He is seen with the eleven at the end of the gospels; there is an apostle lacking in Acts 1, but the matter is faced. Peter says, "It is necessary, therefore, that of the men who have assembled with us ... one of these should be a witness with us of his resurrection". Twelve must be there; it was a matter involving the thread that runs through Scripture from Jacob to the end of Revelation. The idea of twelve must be there, and Peter discerned that, and the idea of the binding principle in resurrection, so that things are held together according to God.

Wm.C. The material which should characterize the assembly would be represented in the upper room.

J.T. The quality of the work of God was seen there, not a growth from the earth, but the result of workmanship; it is quality from that point of view. The names given would mean that each one had some distinction as coming under the hand of the Lord; and so right through the Acts we see how emergencies are met, so that unity is maintained. In the case of Ananias and Sapphira, there was a

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serious effort of the devil to set aside the fruit of the Spirit, but Peter meets that, and the murmuring which arose in chapter 6 is met by the twelve, so that things are held. All that comes out in the early part of the Acts. In the endings of the gospels the disciples appear in a poor light; we see what the flesh is, and in the most favourable circumstances how incapable it is if left to itself. In the beginning of the Acts they appear in a different way. They are equal to the emergencies of the moment; they know what to do. All difficulties arising are met, and things are held even before the Spirit comes.

Ques. De we get the preparation of the stones in the gospels, and the fitting of them together when the Lord went up on high and the Spirit came?

J.T. Yes; I think that is the point in the Acts. It says at the end of Luke that the Lord led them "as far as to Bethany", that is to say, they were leadable, and He led them to that point. It was not final, but it indicates that they were capable of manipulation; they were subject. If He intended in patience to carry on the ministry to the Jews for a time, they were available for this. It is a great thing not to go beyond what the Lord has in His mind at any time. In the Acts they go on; instead of going to the temple, as at the end of Luke, they go to the upper room; and they return from Olivet, not from Bethany. You see more the quality in the Acts so that they were able to meet contingencies during the ten days. That period was intended to test what was there. There was no divine Person on earth. The Lord Jesus had ascended to heaven, and the Holy Spirit had not come. What will they do now? It was a supreme test for them, and I think Peter represents the ability provided to meet it. He stands up and proposes that one should be selected to fill up the gap of apostleship. Christianity was not to begin with a broken state of things. There were eleven apostles

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at the end of the gospels, signifying that under the old economy nothing was perfected. The Lord in a certain sense said He had laboured in vain, and spent His strength for nought, Isaiah 49:4. It was still the time of law. But in the resurrection of Christ, everything is perfected. Thus in the early part of the Acts the apostles understood that they must begin with a perfect number.

Ques. Would "brass in abundance" suggest self-judgement to make room for the Holy Spirit?

J.T. Yes. All these things were seen in principle at the beginning of the Acts -- stones, iron for the nails, brass, and then there were the "cedar trees innumerable".

Ques. According to Psalm 132, David's sufferings were all in connection with finding a place of rest for the ark.

J.T. That was the great burden of his life -- to find out habitations for the mighty One of Jacob. It is in connection with his afflictions. He connects the preparation for the house of the Lord with his afflictions in this chapter, verse 14. Another suggestion is that in affection we provide for the house; "because I have set my affection to the house of my God, I have of mine own proper good, of gold and silver, which I have given to the house of my God", chapter 29: 3.

Ques. What is the threshing-floor here?

J.T. The Lord Himself is typified in the sheaf of the first fruits which was waved before Jehovah, Leviticus 23. The threshing refers to us. The grain has to be separated from the pod, and there has to be the grinding to bring out the meal. No doubt David realized that, in the great discipline that came upon him in the previous chapter. Threshing is an important part of the process of preparation. There may be a large place for it, like the threshing floor of Ornan the Jebusite; or it may sometimes be

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but a limited place, like Gideon's winepress. The prominent thought here is that the house "must be exceeding great in fame and in beauty in all lands", verse 5.

Ques. David said, "In my affliction I have prepared for the house of Jehovah", verse 14. Sometimes we are overpowered with affliction.

J.T. It shows how great the triumph is. Take 2 Corinthians 6, for instance, the apostle mentions an extraordinary combination of paradoxes there, but the work was proceeding through it all, and I think that is what goes on in our souls. We see it perfectly with the Lord. Through His affliction He prepared all these things, and correspondingly in ourselves, the affliction God causes us to pass through, develops into material for the house.

Ques. What about verse 14, "And thou shalt add to it"?

J.T. In the antitype the Lord in heaven was adding. There was what He had prepared in the David character, but the addition is going on still in the saints. The apostle says to the Ephesians, chapter 2: 22, "In whom ye also are built together for a habitation of God in the Spirit" -- a remarkable statement, suggesting that the Gentiles were added to what was there. They were "no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow-citizens of the saints, and of the household of God". The adding goes on now. We read of the Lord adding to the assembly daily. As the apostle Paul preached in Europe, the assemblies grew in number every day.

Ques. That is going on now, is it not?

J.T. I hope so. Thirty or forty years ago but few of us were there. We have come in since. It is going on, and the Lord in heaven is doing it. The true Solomon is doing it.

H.J.A. Paul could call upon the elders of Ephesus to remember his affliction among them and

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how that for "three years, night and day ... with tears" he ceased not to admonish them. A formative work was carried on as the result of the apostle's afflictions for them.

J.T. Yes; he had a very severe time at Ephesus. He fought with beasts there, but the result in assembly material and formation was greater there than elsewhere.

H.J.A. There is a formative work now running parallel with the desires of God in relation to the house.

J.T. There was energy and zeal with David, and unselfishness too, in making way for the young. He was old and full of days and he made Solomon his son king over Israel. He was not reluctant to do it. He did not wish to spend his last moments on the throne and let Solomon wait. That would show the importance of the elder making room for the younger, and the younger ones should see to it that they are like Solomon, sons unto their fathers. There was no spirit of rivalry with Solomon -- no desire to step into someone else's shoes. I am afraid with ourselves, as in the world, there is sometimes a waiting for dead men's shoes. There was nothing like that with Solomon.

It is very beautiful to see how David speaks of Solomon here, as "young and tender"; nevertheless he does not say he is too young for the throne; indeed he puts him on the throne, and that was in wisdom.

N.K.M. Would the secret be found in David's zeal in connection with the house of God? The house of God "must be exceeding great in fame and beauty". It should be an exercise with us all as to David being a model for us. His feelings and the desires of his heart were in relation to the house of God -- it must be exceeding great.

J.T. He had the full thought as to the house.

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Although he recognizes the tender years of Solomon and calls upon others to come in and help, he does not dread the consequences of Solomon's youth.

Rem. Paul gave Timothy, although young, a special place.

J.T. No one was to despise his youth, which of course means that Timothy was to be sober, subject and firm after Paul's manner, so that he would not give occasion for any one to despise his youth. It is remarkable in the history of Solomon how wisely he acted after David's death.

Wm.C. If there is to be any building locally, we must have a man of rest on the throne.

J.T. Yes; that is a state of things necessary for the building.

Wm.C. Solomon is born to David; he comes to light in relation to what had gone before.

J.T. He is really like Timothy -- "according to the prophecies which went before". God Himself took account of the need; we can always rely upon this.

Wm.C. I was thinking of young brothers growing up -- they are objects of affection, and authority is required that they may fulfil their ministry.

J.T. As to Timothy, there were the prophecies that went before, and there was "the laying on of the hands of the presbytery", of those who had experience: normally such men will not lay on their hands quickly. One has to qualify for the laying on of the hands of the presbytery. Then there was the advantage in having Paul's hands laid on him, which would mean apostolic authority in ministry. All these things have to be taken account of by the young; there is the prophecy going before. God takes up the young. It is a rare thing for Him to take up a man advanced in years. The prophecy going before indicates that God has fixed His mind on some young man, and the presbytery (those under whose eyes he has grown up) -- are ready to lay their

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hands on him; but he has to wait for that. And there is the ministry, that which God is especially emphasizing, we have to pay respect to that.

Rem. What about the gift given to Timothy by the laying on of hands?

J.T. That would refer to Paul. Timothy was particularly under the hand of Paul; he says to him -- "the things thou hast heard of me in the presence of many witnesses, these entrust to faithful men". Besides that there was the prophetic word, and the laying on of the hands of the presbytery. These three things are important for young servants to consider.

Rem. Do not the last verses of chapter 22 show that unity would be needed in every heart, young and old?

J.T. Yes. Solomon brings in peace. The Lord, when sending out the seventy, makes a point of their looking for "a son of peace" in each of the houses they went into. A son of peace will not quarrel with anybody; he must know how to stand and be a good soldier, but he is not contentious if he is a son of peace.

Ques. What is suggested in the princes of Israel? "David commanded all the princes of Israel to help Solomon his son", verse 17.

J.T. I think the princes allude to men who were known to be spiritual. I refer to the use of the word in Jacob's case -- "As a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed". Genesis 32:28. The Corinthians were exhorted to quit themselves like men and be strong, 1 Corinthians 16:13. The idea of men refers not to years, but rather to maturity in manly qualities in any one, old or young. I think that has its answer in Numbers (which corresponds with Corinthians), where certain men are "expressed by ... name", and they were summoned by Moses; they were to be present at the numbering. They would be persons who would be fair, they

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were set over those who had been numbered, and it is said in Numbers 7 that "on the day that Moses had fully set up the tabernacle, and had anointed it, and sanctified it", that these men, "princes of Israel, the heads of their fathers' houses, the princes of the tribes, they that were over them that had been numbered, offered; and they brought their offering before Jehovah". What did they offer? They offered six covered waggons, that is to say, two of them offered one waggon, and each of them offered a bullock, and God takes occasion to tell Moses to accept them, as if He would give them to know that He valued what they offered. It was princely, done in the light of the most dignified thing, for they offered in relation to the tabernacle which had been set up and anointed. And the six covered waggons and the twelve bullocks were to be divided -- two waggons and four bullocks for the sons of Gershon and four waggons and eight bullocks for the sons of Merari; they were given to the Levites for service. And then each offered for the dedicating of the altar a silver charger and a silver bowl full of fine flour mingled with oil for a meat offering, and a golden spoon filled with incense, also for the burnt offering, the sin offering and the peace offering -- each one offers the same. We have the idea in the princes of Israel, of men who have no personal motives, men not so much of experience as of spiritual power, and as such they have influence among the brethren. Wherever you find them, they will help a man like Solomon, called by God for service, the son of peace; such men will support him.

Rem. In Numbers 21 we read that the princes digged the well, denoting spiritual energy.

J.T. Yes, they are men of spiritual power and energy, with no personal motive, ready to use whatever strength they have for the promotion and support of what God is doing. In any leading movement

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of God they are not mere onlookers, they come forward and do their part manfully and cheerfully.

Rem. It says of one of the princes that he was the king's friend.

J.T. That is good. It refers to a certain spiritual state in any gathering. The princes were over those who were numbered. In the antitype, those numbered would mean the local company; and the princes would mean the spiritual power that exists in the locality, which is always available for what God is doing. We should look in every gathering for the spiritual element. It is not so much a question of persons, though it is in them, but it is more that thing -- the spiritual element -- and that element will be found wherever God is moving.

H.J.A. Beautiful unity is seen in Numbers 7. It is seldom we find a bullock, a ram and a lamb together.

J.T. The bullock would suggest largeness, the ram maturity, progenitiveness, and the lamb intrinsic value. God was working, and Solomon was the kind of man needed for what He had in view. In principle these features will appear in any special divine movement.

In Peter's case, Acts 10, God was moving on to a new line and He had a man in His mind for it. Peter represented the greatest spiritual feature. He says to Cornelius, "having been sent for, I came without saying anything against it". God was doing it. Peter represents the great wealth of spirituality that existed, and it is brought into action in connection with the new movement to bring in the Gentiles. Sometimes we think God is inactive, but He never gives up, and we want to be with Him, and see what He is doing. David was so fully with that which God was doing, that he makes Solomon king before he dies.

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CHRIST KNOWN IN THE ASSEMBLY

Acts 1:1 - 4; Acts 11:26

J.T. One is impressed increasingly with the need of placing the truth of the assembly before the saints. This book is introductory to the dispensation, giving the account of the inauguration of it, and presenting the assembly as the central feature in connection with the presence of the Holy Spirit, hence the idea of the dispensation must be lost where the truth of the assembly is unknown. The truth of the assembly involves the inner thought, that is, the body of Christ, in connection with which all is evolved. Here it is said the Lord "assembled with them", verse 4. Later in the chapter when it is a question of one to take the place of Judas. Peter says, "It is necessary therefore, that of the men who have assembled with us all the time in which the Lord Jesus came in and went out among us ... one of these should be a witness with us". Then, among many other instances, we have this remarkable verse in chapter 11 in which Barnabas and Saul are teaching a whole year in the assembly -- teaching a large crowd.

R.A. There does not seem to have been much in the way of numbers resulting from the Lord's ministry, but it is wonderful that there was a vessel capable of receiving the Spirit.

J.T. That came into evidence after He arose. The general position at the outset is that He comes to them. Before He died they would come to Him, but the truth of the assembly involves that there is ability in the saints to come together in His absence, to come together as of themselves. So that throughout the period of His sojourn on earth -- after He arose, the general position is that He comes to them, whether to individuals or to the assembly.

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C.R. In the history of our souls do we first come to Him?

J.T. I think He comes to us, if we take it from the standpoint of the gospel, which is God's approach to us. If we take it from the standpoint of God's work in our souls we come to God, that is John. Luke is the gospel where the Lord comes to us in grace, but John is occupied with the work of God in our souls, he would make us come to Him.

C.R. I was thinking of the gospel preacher going out with the word "Come" for instance.

J.T. The work of God in those addressed must accompany the gospel if it is to be effective; but the general thought is that God approaches man in grace where man is, so that you have in Luke 6 the Lord praying all night and then coming down with the twelve and standing on a level place.

A.E.C. We were noticing last week in connection with the raising of Lazarus, John 11, that the Lord said, "Loose him, and let him go". I wondered whether the subsequent chapters in the gospel do not show the way he goes. At the beginning of chapter 12 the Lord came to them.

J.T. "Loose him, and let him go" implies that Lazarus was trustworthy, which everyone is characteristically who is a subject of the work of God. In Luke 7, a young man was raised up and delivered to his mother. There the truth is from the standpoint of care, the Lord approaching man in grace and delivering him and taking care of him, as we also get in Luke 10"take care of him". Luke 14 and 15 speak of believers coming into the house, but Lazarus is let go, and the sequel is seen in the beginning of chapter 12 which brings out the fulness of the work among the Jews: the house is "filled with the odour of the ointment", so that it is morally great enough to be taken over into the new thing -- the assembly.

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H.F.N. I was going to ask you with regard to Peter's movements in Matthew, when he quitted the boat and joined the Lord on the water; would that be the beginning of assembly movement?

J.T. Yes. One can leave the place of apparent safety, the boat, and walk on the waters.

H.F.N. You have several times called attention to the difference between what is congregational and what is connected with the assembly. You are emphasizing the fact that here the Lord assembled with them. We do not reach the assembly until we cease to be congregational.

J.T. Luke concludes his gospel with the disciples in the temple praising and blessing God daily. He shows us what Christ brought in amongst the Jews in a remnant. They never had such times in the temple before! The family scene at Bethany, being in the house, brings it out beautifully. "The house was filled"; so that now the Acts provides for that which is so excellent in the dignified term "assembly". It is to be detached from the temple, but before it is detached, its excellence is seen.

T.H. Is it not clearly connected with the One who has gone up? Before going up He charged them to wait at Jerusalem, and at the beginning of Acts there is a waiting people that He has left behind to which He comes. He presents Himself alive to that waiting people.

J.T. In Acts l they were more formally in view as in the upper room, it is the same company: at the end of Luke they are in the temple, and their excellence is seen in contrast to what was there. Israel is losing much in losing them; Acts shows the transfer. The transfer from Judaism to the assembly is in principle in the Lord presenting Himself living to the disciples. He had been presented to Israel, but now He is presented to them living. He does it Himself, "being seen by them during forty days".

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He presents Himself alive to them, and is seen of them forty days, and then it is said He "assembled with them". I think those few words bring out in principle the position of the assembly. It is the chief object of Christ -- it is the only object now, you might say -- He presented Himself to them, and was seen of them forty days, and assembled with them. Of course the assembly was not formed until the Holy Spirit came, but in principle, as I said, it was there.

H.F.N. Would you say a little more in regard to those two thoughts? What is the difference between His "being seen" and then His "being assembled with them"? How does that bear on the truth of the assembly?

J.T. I think it comes in on the Lord's day. The first thought is that we come together, we have the ability to come together, as seen in 1 Corinthians 11:18. The saints have that ability; and the next thing is that He presents Himself living. He had promised to come to them, John 14:18.

C.R. Is the presenting Himself living after He had suffered that which would touch our affections, as bringing in His suffering love?

J.T. To get the gain of what is stated in any scripture we must apply it to the present time. He presents Himself living "after he had suffered". The Lord would touch our hearts in this way. It is as we are together. First, there is the coming together, but if we are in a bad state there can be no assembling with us, all He could do would be to rebuke us, but if the conditions warranted it the Lord would assemble with us. Assembling with the disciples here involves how things should be done. The assembly being the greatest formation, Christ moving there is the highest order of things. What would He do there? As we get these thoughts into our hearts, they will work out in our assembly meetings.

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L.K. The word 'suffered' here would bring about a sympathetic spirit with us too, would it not?

J.T. I am sure it ought to. It is "after he had suffered"; elsewhere the tokens are there -- His hands and His side.

L.K. I was thinking it would bring about conditions where the Lord would come.

J.T. It brings about a feeling condition.

F.B. So that it should exercise us that conditions might be right when we come together -- the moral condition such that the Lord should be able to present Himself to us living.

J.T. Luke says, "concerning all things which Jesus began both to do and to teach, until that day in which, having by the Holy Spirit charged the apostles whom he had chosen, he was taken up; to whom also he presented himself living, after he had suffered". This passage does not present a finished state of things, it is what He began to do and to teach, and it is still going on. If you have a heart at all, when He presents Himself as having suffered, you would be affected.

E.H.D. Would all that "Jesus began both to do and to teach" indicate that a personal knowledge and acquaintance is essential before we can have the other thoughts?

J.T. It is remarkable the order of the words, first "to do", showing that christianity is not a mere ethereal order of things but it is substantial; and then there is what He taught.

E.G.L. Would the presenting Himself be to individuals?

J.T. It is collective here: "To whom [the apostles] also he presented himself living, after he had suffered".

C.R. Is that not a sovereign presentation?

J.T. Well, it is. It is not merely that the Lord came in: a person might come in at the door and

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take off his coat and sit down, but to present himself is another matter.

R.A. I was going to ask why you stressed the distinction between the presentation and the assembling.

J.T. Well, I think presentation is to call attention to Himself -- He presents Himself living. When David came in, 1 Samuel 16:12, it was not with any show, I am sure, he was little accounted of, but as having come in, "he was ruddy and besides of a lovely countenance and beautiful appearance" and the Holy Spirit says, "This is he"; the idea is there. But this passages goes further than David coming in, because the Lord "presented himself", it is calling attention to Himself as I said: the eye is taken with Him and the heart is taken with Him. Assembling with them calls attention to how He was with the disciples after He rose -- in view of the assembly. He presents Himself there: what do you think of that Person? He is making Himself attractive to you.

R.A. He commands our affections.

J.T. That is the thought.

H.F.N. If the Lord presents Himself, does it involve something distinctive on each occasion, a glory that we may not have seen before, that comes to the assembly?

J.T. That is what I was thinking.

H.F.N. At the end of John 20 they say to the brother who had been absent, "We have seen the Lord". The Lord had presented Himself, had He not?

J.T. Exactly. I was thinking of the way the Lord took up this absent one and would make the thoughts of His suffering a very deep reality to him; he was unaffected except he could see in His hands the print of the nails, and put his finger into the print of the nails, and thrust his hand into His side. All these circumstances are intended to make the

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presence of the Lord a reality; but this presenting Himself is peculiar and fitting in the Acts. It is an inaugural thought; He leaves nothing out that was needed to bring out the dignity and function of the assembly and His place in it in relation to the testimony.

A.E.C. Would we gather up in our minds the many thoughts of Christ that are presented to us in the Old Testament saints? You referred to David, but many others are presented to us conveying beautiful traits of Christ. Are all not gathered up here?

J.T. I think they are. But more than what the types and Old Testament saints could set forth is seen here. It is the Lord Himself, and He is infinitely beautiful! The bride in Canticles speaks of Him in His features. His beauty in the passage before us is enhanced by His skill, the way He presents Himself, His grace, His movements, etc. He calls attention to Himself. He thus becomes wholly attractive to us.

H.F.N. Would you suggest that this presentation is something unique to the assembly, something distinctive?

J.T. It seems that here the assembly is in view.

C.R. It is very beautiful, coming from the same writer who had portrayed His grace in such a way.

J.T. It is, and at once you have the sense that the writer is on new ground; he is looking definitely toward the assembly.

A.E.C. It is very important to see that in Acts we are on new ground.

J.T. We have it before us when we come together "in assembly". There is, first, the presentation, and secondly what we see. It says "being seen of them forty days". There is what is seen and heard.

A.E.C. Where does the kingdom of God come in in relation to the assembly?

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J.T. In relation to Christ and the assembly, it is found in this great inaugural book. Christianity is marked by the power of the kingdom of God. Jesus is installed in heaven, made Lord and Christ, and the Holy Spirit is on earth, having formed the assembly and dwelling in it in manifest power. His presenting Himself to the disciples and assembling with them has all this in view.

H.F.N. How would you apply it practically? Would you limit it to the first day of the week, or would we go further and expect the Lord on every occasion in which we come together to show Himself to us, and then give us a touch of the assembly?

J.T. The first day of the week is specially the day of the assembly; we may expect the Lord to be with us any time we come together, but it would be in keeping with the character of the meeting. In 1 Corinthians 11 we have the expression "come together in assembly", verse 18, but in chapter 14: 23, it is "the whole assembly come together in one place". The 14th chapter is for ministry, but the 11th is for the supper.

H.F.N. Would you say a little as to the difference between the 11th and 14th of Corinthians.

J.T. Well, I think the reading is correct in this translation; for "when ye come together in assembly" properly belongs to the Lord's supper. Whereas in chapter 14 it is "the whole assembly come together in one place", which is somewhat different, the idea being that they are all there in one place. In the latter passage the assembly would be recognized, but more in temple character, as that in which God speaks.

C.R. We could only come together in the light of that in the present day.

J.T. It is well to keep that in mind. No meeting can today assume to be the assembly or temple of God.

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A.E.C. In Corinthians it is put in a local setting.

J.T. Yes it is; Acts is a wider thought.

H.F.N. What you say in regard to the inauguration is, I think, distinctly helpful. Would it work out in the Lord reflected in the saints -- if the Lord presented Himself? It says in the book of Job, "The sons of God presented themselves before God", and so if the Lord assembles with us would we learn to assemble from Him?

J.T. I think so, we have to see what He will do. We can understand that Peter and the others would observe what the Lord did. Then there is the other side, the sons of God presenting themselves. This indicates how we are to appear before God. We learn this from Christ also. He was contemplated as an only-begotten with a father. The assembly is the place of His glory. "My assembly", He said. The first thing is how He shows Himself, and then what I see. "Being seen by them during forty days" -- that is the second thing. Then He speaks, there is what they heard, that is the third thing; and then. He "assembled with them".

T.H. This is inward, is it not? The suggestion here is waiting for power to move out, but the thing is to be known and enjoyed in this inward way. Then the power comes in by the Holy Spirit that it may be seen as carried out afterwards.

J.T. "He assembled with them" is the inward thought; so that all ministry and service takes character from Christ as known in the assembly as we come together the first day of the week. The history of the assembly is, in this sense, divided into weeks.

F.B. I suppose there is a peculiar way in which we realize the thought of the Lord presenting Himself to us on the first day of the week. There is no other occasion like the first day of the week when the saints are assembled, I was thinking of that

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verse in John "I am coming to you". Is not that like the presentation of Himself?

J.T. Yes. The idea of presentation is somewhat peculiar, as we have been saying, it is more than the fact that He was among them. In Luke and John it is said He stood in the midst. He would give the assembly every opportunity to see Him. They did see Him during the forty days -- what views they had of Him!

C.R. Seeing this is the dispensation of faith, how do we see Him today?

J.T. Well that is the exercise, how does it apply now? Everything now is on the principle of faith, not sight. This is all actual sight, but the dispensation of God is "in faith" and we do not reach that until "a cloud received him out of their sight". The time of faith began then. What the disciples had literally we have spiritually. Indeed the whole forty days during which the Lord was seen by the disciples was to stress the spiritual side of the truth -- to accustom them to Him in the new and glorious condition He had taken. They saw Him during forty days but in circumstances calculated to induce faith, because He came in without the doors being opened. It was to accustom them to what was spiritual and what was heavenly, which led them on to the faith period. I think that is what is implied by "a cloud received him out of their sight". Henceforth all is on the principle of faith until the Lord comes. The fact that the Lord was literally seen afterwards by Paul and others does not alter this; it shows that He is always sovereignly free. Of course faith was the principle on which souls were saved and linked with Christ even while He was here, but from the time of His ascension the time of faith began. Compare John 20:29. Faith is understood by possession -- not by definition.

H.F.N. Have we to learn to wait sometimes?

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May we not hinder the Lord by our very activity; may not our hymns sometimes hinder us seeing the Lord?

J.T. Yes. We come together in faith, making room for the Spirit. Normally the assembly is marked by spiritual intelligence, the Lord takes account of it. The Lord shows Himself, and the next thing is, do I see Him? The disciples say, "We have seen the Lord". We want to come to that -- what we can see by the Spirit on the principle of faith. The Spirit is the power of perception. You see in the end of his gospel how John became a leader in recovery, because it was he who saw the Lord first; he said to Peter, "It is the Lord". He took the lead that time, Peter followed. As discerning the Lord I know what to do. If I discern the body of the Lord, that is, that He has been into death, I am ready for Him as risen and glorified. He says to John, "I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore". That was accompanied by the Lord laying His right hand on him. It is a touch; in the same way something happens in the assembly that many do not expect, but it effects spiritual movement -- "it is the Lord".

C.R. John falls at His feet as dead.

J.T. He touched him, and he rose up in the power of life, and what follows in the book shows that John was affected by the thought of life. Later he says, "I became in the Spirit". In the assembly the Lord's touch leads to suitable activity in service to God. The Lord is known in the assembly not only as risen, but as the heavenly One; and "as the heavenly one, such also the heavenly ones". How great is the thought -- Christ and the assembly.

F.B. What is your thought in referring to Acts 11?

J.T. To show how the truth of the assembly involves teaching. This in Acts 1 is more the

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example set by the Lord, and it was for the disciples, those who were to be witnesses; but Acts 11:26 says there was a great crowd. Barnabas went forth to seek Saul -- "And having found him, he brought him to Antioch. And so it was with them that for a whole year they were gathered together in the assembly and taught a large crowd". The words "gathered together" would be enough, but you have the addition "in the assembly". It supplies what is needed -- the power that comes with teaching. Prophets and teachers are later said to be in the assembly at Antioch, and they were ministering to the Lord and fasting. Gift is not merely something that will unfold facts to you, there is the power to enforce the truth, and the teaching goes on through the year. Saints as learning go through the seasons -- the summer and winter, the seed time and harvest, the cold and heat: we are getting lessons in all these circumstances.

C.R. It is in the assembly that we can rightly profit by it.

J.T. That is the thing. The assembly at Antioch bore the marks of divine formation and teaching. The Lord Himself says His ears were opened "to hear as the instructed". Antioch involves not only an elementary or a beginner's class, it is a finishing course; they were already converted and had turned to the Lord; and Barnabas seeing the grace of God exhorted them to "abide with the Lord"; and then he brings Saul -- that they may get, as it were, a full course in the assembly.

R.A. What is the thought of "a large crowd" that comes in there?

J.T. I think the idea is just a large number. Generally it would be an unorganized company. In the gospels you get "crowd" as distinct from the disciples, but here it would be just a large company with the presence of the assembly element. They

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were all learners, but the subsequent facts given show a finished result.

R.A. The teaching would bring them into subjection.

J.T. Yes, and into assembly order.

H.F.N. Our attention has been called to the fact that the assembly in Jerusalem had ears.

J.T. That is mentioned in our chapter and shows that those who formed it had hearing power. The Lord in the temple amongst the doctors was hearing and asking questions, "And all who heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers".

H.F.N. Is not teaching in the assembly for all -- old and young christians?

J.T. It is better than what is to be had in a Sunday school; in the assembly you get the very best. As remarked, the Lord was in the temple hearing and asking questions. Then you get His understanding and answers. I believe all that is suggestive of assembly features. One is there to learn as an instructed person, and as you listen you get more instruction.

A.E.C. We should think of all our young people as assembly material.

T.H. Is the thought "gathered together in the assembly" that the assembly gives support to the speakers?

J.T. The idea of the assembly would be there, it would be the atmosphere of it. The thought of the full-grown man would be there. Israel were to gather an omer for every one in a house. There might be a man with ten children -- some of them may be only babes, but he would gather ten omers. Why should the children not be amongst the doctors, so to speak? They have to come up to the standard. The omer being kept in the ark indicates what the divine measure for each believer is, the measure of Christ.

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H.F.N. Would it not augment the attendance of our Sunday afternoon readings if that were more in power in our souls?

J.T. The young people among the saints should understand that these meetings are for them, that all ministry is theirs along with the older ones.

A.E.C. Say a little more about the manna.

J.T. The measure is for the persons in the household whatever their ages. However many there may be, each would have an omer. The Lord was found among the doctors in the temple, hearing and asking questions -- He is a wonderful example for young people as to how they should learn.

L.K. The same measure for the youngest as for the oldest.

A.E.C. So it is both "hearing them and asking them questions".

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EDUCATION FOR SERVICE TO GOD IN THE ASSEMBLY

Acts 1:1 - 5; Acts 13:1 - 3

J.T. In order to rightly apprehend the assembly and how we have part in it, to serve in it, we need to see how the Lord was with His own during the days of His flesh, and then how He was with them after He died and rose. That is, what we get in the gospels would help us in our public movements, the movements which come beneath the notice of all who may be present; but what we get after the Lord died and rose, is more spiritual. Both are essential to our having part in the assembly according to God. I thought the verses in chapter 1: 1 - 5 would suffice as calling attention to the Lord as having assembled with His own after He rose; and then we see in chapter 13: 1 - 3 how they ministered to Him, this being the first mention of direct ministry Godward, so that they become peculiarly interesting in that way. If there is one thing more than another that we need, it is to be led on to the apprehension of the assembly in its service Godward. To make it simple: in the gospels we have the Lord instituting His supper, that was before He died. Luke mentions much about external order. It has often been questioned why others were not present besides the apostles; but it is obvious that the Lord wished to have what happened carried down by competent witnesses. So that Luke being accurately acquainted from the origin as having learned from those who were "eye-witnesses of and attendants on the Word", from the beginning, writes with method to Theophilus. He tells us that the Lord placed Himself at table when the hour was come, with the twelve apostles. Luke 22:14, and he tells us what the Lord did, and how in His actions and

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words, He separated His supper from the passover. The apostle Paul told the Corinthians about the same thing, but he says that he received it from the Lord, so that what Paul received from the Lord is confirmed by Luke's account in his gospel.

Luke also tells us that the Lord was praying in a certain place, and that one of the disciples asked Him to teach them to pray, chapter 11: 1, 2, showing that they learnt how to pray from Him; and then he also tells us that when the seventy returned and told the Lord about the success of their ministry, and how the demons were subject to them. He goes further and says, "I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven", but He says, "in this rejoice not ... but rather rejoice because your names are written in heaven", chapter 10: 20. Then Luke tells us that He rejoiced in spirit at that time, and praised the Father; so we see in that way how we ourselves are to praise in the assembly, and what we are to do and say, how we are to pray and praise -- we learn all these things from the Lord; at least they did, and being witnesses, as Luke tells us, they passed them down to us.

Then after He rose we have the Lord coming in and speaking to them, showing by what took place how real His humanity was even after He rose, so that He is a real Man in resurrection. But He is gone into heaven, as the book of the Acts shows, and before He went into heaven He "assembled with them". We have the word "assembly" formally in the Acts, probably for the first time in chapter 5, verse 11, although it may possibly appear in chapter 2, verse 47, but we have it a number of times until we come to chapter 13, where certain in it are formally "ministering to the Lord", verse 2. What happened in the Lord's lifetime came under the notice of men, any one might see what He did, but He tells us Himself that the world should see Him no more

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after that; therefore what happened after He rose is not before the eyes of men at all, it is spiritual. It is a great thing to bear in mind that Christianity, as regards ourselves, is a matter of witness; it has come to us on the principle of testimony.

Ques. Will you help us a little on the ministering to the Lord?

J.T. Well, it is the service of the assembly Godward. It had been spoken of, the Lord having in spirit said in Psalm 22 that He would sing "in the midst of the assembly", Hebrews 2. It had long been in His mind, but now we see it in actual function.

Ques. Is coming together on the Lord's day morning a spiritual thought?

J.T. The first thing to notice is we are together in a public way; the Lord placed Himself at the table with them when the hour was come, which is a public matter, any one present could have seen it. Acts 1 is in keeping with what is spiritual, "being assembled with them" after He rose would not be public. The Lord says, "The world seeth me no more". John 14:19, so it is the spiritual side. Acts 1 prepares us for the spiritual side of things in christianity: the essential thing is what is spiritual, what is public is the outcome of that.

Rem. If we did not have what is recorded of the public movements of the Lord we should be at a great loss in the spiritual sphere, we should not know how to act.

J.T. I think those present in Acts 1 would get a new impression. They had been accustomed to Him coming in and going out among them. There was nothing mysterious about the way He went in and out amongst them in the days of His flesh; but what is recorded at the beginning of Acts is mysterious, it is outside the range of man; so they would get a new impression. It would be wholly new to them that He should come in, the doors being shut, as

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we are told in John 20, but it was intended to make them spiritual.

Ques. Would they, in the spirit of the thing, be regarded as risen with Christ?

J.T. They would be, only the doctrine awaited Paul -- that is, Colossians. But what we learn in the days of His flesh, would correspond more with Corinthians, what is public; so that we are viewed as men and women, and it is a question of days of the week and the notices, matters relating to the testimony in the place, all that has part in the public side which any one with ears and eyes can hear and see: there is a public testimony before men in that.

Ques. What would be the force of speaking of the kingdom of God before they assembled?

J.T. I suppose the Lord had in view what they should bear testimony to. The kingdom is spiritual too, but it bears on conditions down here. It is said to be "righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit". The kingdom of God is the moral sway of God. "If I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you". He had also said, "The kingdom of God is in the midst of you", which would allude to the power which He exercised among the Jews. It does not say He spoke about the assembly, but the thing is there without being spoken of; that often appears, that a thing is presented but not dwelt upon. What He was doing in assembling with them would come out by and by in Paul's ministry, but He is preparing them for it; I judge that nothing that came out in Paul's ministry would take the twelve by surprise.

Ques. The apostle says, "I have received of the Lord": he received it by the Spirit from the Lord. What is our part in it?

J.T. What he received was an account of what happened before the Lord died. So that the Lord's

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supper was not simply passed on to the Gentile believers from those of the Jews; the Lord gave it directly to Paul for them. It confirms what we have been saying, that the two things now run together, what happened before He died and what happened after He rose. What happened before He died refers to the public position, and that is what He delivered to Paul; then we have the more spiritual or inner side of the truth in Colossians and Ephesians, involving the mystery and the heavenly position.

Ques. Is that why the disciples were not to speak of the transfiguration till after Jesus was risen from the dead?

J.T. Yes, the bearing of it was future; such directions to conceal are consequent on the Lord's rejection by the world. The Jews were already rejecting Him.

Ques. Is it not a striking thing that the Lord in resurrection still acts in the power of the Spirit? It says here He charged His apostles "by the Holy Spirit", verse 2.

J.T. Yes, it is. He did that in the days of His flesh no doubt, but here it is all to bring in the spiritual side, all that is done is spiritual.

Rem. So that as we develop in this instruction we come to chapter 13.

J.T. Yes; there you see service Godward.

Ques. Presenting Himself living, with many proofs, covering the whole period of forty days would ensure their formation as taking up this service.

J.T. That instruction is essential to the understanding of the assembly in its service Godward. We may have public rectitude in our meetings, but what about the spiritual side? What about this forty days' experience? The Lord was taken up to heaven, but He did not carry the impressions away with Him. He left them, and the impressions became the

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property of the assembly. He says they should receive the Spirit "after now not many days", so that all would be verified after the Spirit came. If Peter were here this afternoon he could tell us much, but the Holy Spirit is a greater witness than Peter and He is here. Not only does He present things to us, but He guides into all truth.

Ques. I suppose all the appearings of the Lord in resurrection to His own, had in view that they should be spiritual. He refused to be touched when it would be linking up with a former order of things, but He encouraged it when it would link them up with what is spiritual. He says to Mary, in John 20, "Touch me not" for in her mind it was to link Him with the condition of things which He had left: but elsewhere He would encourage them to touch Him, for it would help them to link on to the spiritual order of things. "Handle me and see", He says.

J.T. In Paul's letter to the Corinthians he mentions the appearing to Cephas first: Luke mentions His appearing to Simon -- that is the responsible erring man. The apostle Paul had in mind that the Lord appeared to Cephas in relation to the assembly. We have to take account of one another as Simon, that is, as persons who are responsible in this world, the subjects of God's grace, which is properly the line of Corinthians. But the record of Christ's appearings is in chapter 15 where Paul is going to speak of the resurrection and spiritual and heavenly things, not of public order. There are things that relate to us in our responsible life here as men and women, that is what "Simon" would stand for; but He appears to us as "Cephas", a stone, in relation to the assembly.

Rem. Stones which are being put in place.

J.T. Yes. In 1 Corinthians 11, the Lord is brought in as having told Paul something about what happened before He died. We have to think of that, that such things enter into the assembly, but viewed

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more in its public character. In 1 Corinthians 15, the apostle speaks of what happened after He died and rose; and that is the secret behind the public position. If we do not understand the Lord in a spiritual way, risen, we shall not rightly represent Him publicly.

Ques. I think we all have a measure of appreciation of what is public, but the moment what is spiritual is touched, there is little response: that is what you are anxious we should avoid.

J.T. Yes, I think it is important to make that distinction; what He was before His death is to be continued. 1 Corinthians is like the hands of a clock, but the works are Colossians and Ephesians. You would not get the hands moving rightly without Colossians and Ephesians. If the Lord draws attention to the hands, He does not fail to draw attention to the works which are the secret of the movement of the hands. So that the assembling with them in chapter 1 is to make them familiar with the spiritual, and the Holy Spirit coming in a few days after would consolidate all the impressions they received during the forty days, and that is the heritage of the assembly. Although the assembly was present it is not stressed until after the Spirit comes down, and service Godward is not mentioned, I think, until chapter 13. You get the service of Paul and Barnabas in chapter 11, they were there a year, "gathered together in the assembly and taught a large crowd". That is to say, the brethren at Antioch had received verbal instruction from Barnabas and Paul, and also had the advantage of seeing how these two men moved in the assembly; then they go up to Jerusalem with the bounty of the saints at Antioch; which would also involve spiritual education for those at Antioch. They were Christ's glory in carrying the bounty, and they came back after having fulfilled the service entrusted to them. They came

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back bringing with them John, whose surname was Mark, and then we are told that "there were in the assembly" certain persons, of whom Barnabas is put first and Saul last, and they are "ministering to the Lord and fasting".

Ques. What is the exact bearing of the Lord's act in John 20 when He breathed into the disciples and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit"? If He did that, why was it necessary that there should be the baptism of the Spirit afterwards?

J.T. I think John 20 is just pattern. We cannot say that they actually did get the Spirit then, for it would conflict with the actual pouring out at Pentecost. It is pattern I believe, pointing to the life that they would have, because it is His own breath. It is really the most intimate of all transactions with the Lord, that He breathed into them. It would mean that they received His life.

Rem. So that He imparted something positive to them in doing that.

J.T. Yes, anticipatively; they would find a full answer to it when the Holy Spirit came down. This is not the Spirit in a general way upon them for testimony, but His own spirit and life energising them; they would be therefore like Him, they are sent out as having thus been breathed into, hence He commits Himself to them in giving them power to remit and retain sins.

Ques. Do you connect it with 1 Corinthians 15 -- the life-giving Spirit?

J.T. Just so; it is a wonderful thought that we live in His life.

Ques. Would you go so far as to say that there was thus a company here on earth in which the spirit of life of the risen Man had been placed?

J.T. That is how I understand it, and so they would be representative, not only as sent ones, but as having His own life. What is recorded in John 20

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had its realization after the Spirit came; but Acts does not say He came into them, but that "it sat upon each one of them". It was visible; but John 20 shows that they were inwardly equal to that; that He had not only constituted them capable in the manifest power of the Spirit, but they were equal to it in the power of His life. You would have said of them, 'These men are like Christ'. We have the Spirit of Christ, so that if you meet a brother say, from the Establishment, you do not tell him at first that they are all wrong; that would be to impute sins, but you would rather indicate that you remit them, because you want to help him; you make him feel you have not anything against him; and that is the Spirit of Christ. If the matter of his walking with you in fellowship arose, you would then want to know whether he had judged and forsaken his associations.

Ques. Do you think that in the Lord moving in and out among them during the forty days, they would learn to be at home with Him in such conditions? and then that would be preparatory to the service in chapter 13.

J.T. All those impressions they would get during the forty days would be consolidated in them by the Spirit's coming. So the first visit would probably occasion a certain surprise -- according to Luke 24 it does. On the second visit He would become more familiar to them. If I had been there I should have liked to listen to Peter giving thanks and breaking the bread; and John, I would love to hear him too. They were henceforth spiritual men. Judas (not Iscariot) said, "How is it that thou wilt manifest thyself to us and not to the world?" That question has to be answered in our souls. The Lord says, "If any one love me, he will keep my word" -- he will understand, and tabernacle conditions will be there and "my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our abode with him".

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Rem. If we are to understand that spiritual sphere, there must be more of that individual appreciation of the Lord coming in. In a way we touch the spiritual sphere individually, so that when we gather together it is not a sphere we know nothing about, but something we have known and proved of the presence of the Lord as coming to us. His individual coming to us would prepare us for His coming to us assembly-wise.

J.T. John 14:21 - 23 is provision for remnant times, so that the individual who loves the Lord comes in for the best things. The appearings in 1 Corinthians 15 are to teach us that there is the individual side: He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. Then he appeared to above five hundred brethren at once! -- they are three different settings. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, and last of all to Paul. The passage teaches us that there are individual appearings.

Rem. In our individual movements it would make a great difference to us if we realized the Lord as for us and with us. He would always be for us, but are we conscious that He is always with us?

J.T. And then with us in the sense of appearing so that you have some spiritual apprehension of Himself. So that the first idea is apprehending a Person. I can well understand that Peter experienced that, he appeared to Simon. There would not be much liberty in the first appearing, for things were not quite right with him, but the Lord appeared to him. Then after that remarkable occasion in John 21, when things were bottomed, any time the Lord appeared to Simon would be simple to him. The Lord appearing to five hundred brethren would imply a family touch. The same impressions would be taken on by all.

Rem. So in John 20 the disciples say to Thomas, "We have seen the Lord".

J.T. What we have said should help us to understand

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how the Lord can be known spiritually in any relation. What we are speaking of depends now on the presence of the Spirit. The appearings during the forty days after the Lord rose from the dead were, of course, literal or corporeal, and so also what Paul speaks of; but the application of the thought to ourselves is spiritual, and depends as we have said, on the presence of the Spirit with us.

Ques. Why are only these two gifts, prophets and teachers, mentioned in connection with the assembly at Antioch? In Ephesians He ascended on high and gave "some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers".

J.T. I suppose it awaited Ephesus to get the full thought; we are only at the beginning of Paul's ministry here. Ephesus is the crown of his service.

Rem. They were rather a mixed company here; Barnabas, a coloured man, then a Cyrenian, and a foster-brother of Herod, and then you get Saul. If the Spirit takes people in hand and puts them together in view of divine pleasure, it does not matter what they are socially or religiously.

J.T. That is important at this juncture where Paul's ministry was beginning to tell. He is the last one mentioned, but that does not mean he has the least power, rather otherwise. We have the coloured man in chapter 8 and then Saul himself in chapter 9 and Cornelius in chapter 10 -- the three branches of the race. But Paul is still called Saul, which would mean he has not yet taken on his distinctive feature. You would expect to get a set of persons like this in the first assembly among the Gentiles.

Ques. Would the manner in which the facts are stated suggest a spiritual state of things?

J.T. That is the point, to bring out the remarkable effect of the work of God in that assembly.

Rem. Such a variety of people could not be together as seen here apart from what is spiritual.

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J.T. That is so, and all this developed out of the service of Paul and Barnabas there for a whole year. Then they had gone to Jerusalem and linked on with the apostles, and come back again. In 1 Chronicles 22 you get David as head, then the princes in chapter 29. These men at Antioch are like princes, and they assure us of wealth in that assembly: Christ coming in as Head, and the princes -- a great spiritual formation seen at Antioch.

Ques. Does the fasting emphasise the thought of spiritual conditions?

J.T. That is the test of spiritual vitality, the giving up of legitimate things for the sake of the Lord's service. It brings me, in the power of the Spirit, under complete self-control.

Ques. You connected ministering to the Lord with Psalm 22, would you connect it with the service of praise to the Father?

J.T. I should; this is the beginning of it in the history of the testimony -- the first concrete expression we have in the Acts of service Godward; and I am sure it is what God has in His mind. The Lord spoke of it prophetically on the cross. I am concerned that we should get a little touch of it now, that we should have part in the assembly Godward.

Ques. How vastly different all this is from what is commonly said -- "The place where the sacraments are duly administered and the word of God faithfully preached". That leaves out all we are talking about this afternoon. You find people are interested in service, missions, etc., but you begin to talk about the assembly, and there is silence.

J.T. Yes, and this side is not known, nor will it ever be known, apart from the recognition of the Spirit.

Ques. Would this be the assembly actually convened?

J.T. I think so. "As they were ministering to the

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Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said ..." -- it was what they were doing. The service of God that was at Jerusalem in a material sense is now transferred to the Gentiles in a spiritual way. God has His establishment now where He is ministered to, where His worship is carried on. The service issues forth from these conditions: it shows how much the state of a meeting has to do with the public service.

Ques. In the light of what you said as to there being wealth here in chapter 13, is not that in view of the concrete thing taking form in chapter 20?

J.T. This is the beginning, I think, of what is perfected at Ephesus, where we have, "To him be glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus unto all generations of the age of ages". Ephesians 3:21; that is the full thought; the temple is "in the Lord", but the assembly is a question of the Father's place and glory, as seen in that passage, throughout all generations. This is the beginning of that. The end of Ephesians 3 is full of holy stimulating power.

Ques. I thought that in John 20 you had the place that David speaks of in Chronicles, the house of Jehovah. There is nothing there actually when he bought the threshing-floor, but he called it "the house of Jehovah Elohim", 1 Chronicles 22:1.

J.T. He bought "the place", which would be more extensive than the threshing-floor; there is plenty of room; God's thought is very great.

Ques. These two things mentioned in verse 3 are important, fasting and prayer.

J.T. Fasting makes room for the Spirit, hence the power. One of the fruits of the Spirit is said to be self-control, and in Romans 8 we read, "If, by the Spirit, ye put to death the deeds of the body, ye shall live". Fasting is not dealing with bad things exactly, but it shows that I have control, my natural inclinations have not power over me, I control myself by the Spirit.

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Rem. It shuts out everything of the first man.

J.T. It does, and even legitimate things, so that natural inclinations and propensities do not control you. I cannot be in the assembly according to God unless I am in self-control.

Rem. Monasticism assumes that the flesh is able to control the flesh, but the truth is, as you were saying, that the Spirit is the only power.

J.T. Exactly. They build monasteries to shut out flesh, but the power of the Spirit is the only power for this. Better is "he that ruleth his spirit than he that taketh a city". Proverbs 16:32.

Ques. What we are speaking of goes far deeper than the refusal of the flesh. What you have in view is that if that which is of nature assumes dominance over the soul, it is a death-blow to spiritual apprehension.

J.T. In the Scottish Establishment they fast before the sacrament. There is something in that. I believe if brethren were more concerned about themselves in view of the assembly, in self-control, to disallow even what is legitimate, there would be more power in the service of God.

Rem. That would raise the question of practical holiness.

J.T. It would indeed.

Rem. I was thinking of John again -- "Receive the Holy Spirit".

J.T. Yes, it is more the character of the Spirit.

Ques. This would work positively. Would it be a question of what you are finding your life in?

J.T. That is the way it would work out, so that you have the power to join the Lord in the assembly. It is an interesting fact that Matthew and Mark in their record of what happened at the institution of the supper, speak about eating first, eating is mentioned twice; and they are the only writers who mention the singing of the hymn, as if they would

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call attention to the power that you need to eat what displaces the flesh and builds up a spiritual constitution. They sang a hymn, meaning that they could sing together; we cease to be so many units and learn to sing together -- it is a question of spiritual power in unity as in 2 Chronicles 5. Now Luke does not say anything about eating or the mount of Olives, he speaks about remembrance, which does not require the same power; it comes in earlier in the meeting when we sit down, as a matter of memorial. But as soon as you begin to move spiritually, as the Lord shows Himself, that needs power. Otherwise you will be a mere theorist as to the Lord's presence in the assembly; we must move with Him. But besides the idea of the memorial there is food in the Lord's supper.

Rem. That would enable you to move to the point of ascension.

J.T. Yes; if I only come for the memorial, I may not move. The Lord would draw us to His side, so that we might have part with Him; then besides the effect of what the supper presents there is the action of the Spirit leading us to apprehend Christ as the Ark of the Covenant and as Head, which brings us on to 1 Chronicles.

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THE ASSEMBLY IN THE HEAVENLIES IN CHRIST

Ephesians 2:1 - 13

J.T. I thought we might consider the heavenly side of the assembly -- the place God has given to us in His counsels, our eternal place. It is important to remember that there is a distinctive light which governs our position, which may be called "heavenly light". No doubt every family designed for blessing has a peculiar light of its own. If we refer to Isaiah 60, where Zion is addressed and appealed to, the word is, "Arise, shine! for thy light is come" -- a light specially for Zion. Then the Lord is said to have been a light for the revelation of the gentiles; in that way He was a special light for the gentiles. And there is a special light which applies to our position, which I believe may be called heavenly light. All light, of course, comes from heaven. The sun is the luminary of the earth, and Christ is said to be the Sun of righteousness, i.e. for the earth. It helps to consider what is special to us.

G.N. Does the section read refer to the gentiles?

J.T. It refers to Jews and gentiles who form the assembly. Ephesians has reference to the assembly.

Ques. Do you limit the thought of the sun to Israel?

J.T. No, the sun is universal; but when the tribes moved of old, they pitched towards the sun-rising. The sun has a great place with Israel especially as a type of the Lord. Then "shall the Sun of righteousness arise" -- that is what Israel shall find Christ to be. The light that shone round about Paul and those with him was "above the brightness of the sun".

G.N. Paul was the one to whom the mystery was committed, and so could write thus.

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D.D. God said, "Let there be light"; is that in your mind?

J.T. Yes, that is general in Genesis 1. But on the fourth day there were special luminaries set in the heavens.

J.S. The Sun of righteousness refers to God coming in, as to the earth.

J.T. Yes, righteousness has reference to the earth, so Romans is the solution of good and evil. Righteousness is established; that must be settled before you can enter on the heavenly position.

J.S. That must be universal. Every family must learn Christ in relation to righteousness, coming in in regard to the recovery of things.

J.T. Every family; it is fundamental for all. "When thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness". But men have taken advantage of the grace of God, and the inhabitants of the world have not learned righteousness. What is required on the earth is judgment, and that is coming in. The question of righteousness has to be solved, and that applies to every one of us. We cannot touch the heavenly side without righteousness. It is a great lesson to learn -- righteousness.

Rem. Christ in heaven is the Sun of righteousness.

J.T. Yes, as He comes out. Paul views the Lord as sitting there. Christ is at rest there, there is nothing to disturb Him there, but He arises as the Sun of righteousness. The light that appears in heaven as Christ comes out has reference to righteousness, and what goes with that is healing.

Ques. Is that the epistle to the Romans?

J.T. In a way; the soul learns righteousness and is healed spiritually; the believer is made whole in resurrection. The righteousness of God is manifested, being witnessed to by the law and the prophets; also the idea of healing comes in, the soul has to be made whole. You put your trust in Him.

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"Blessed are all they that put their trust in him", and putting your trust in Him, you come into healing.

Ques. What is the idea of light "above the brightness of the sun"?

J.T. It is the superior character of the light, and that had reference to the man who was to bring in the truth of the mystery. The first record of the light that shone around Paul is by Luke; he simply states "a light from heaven" -- not from Jerusalem. Then Paul in recounting the circumstances in speaking at Jerusalem says: "there shone from heaven a great light round about me"; that expressed his own estimate of it then. Then again at Caesarea before Agrippa he says: "A light ... above the brightness of the sun", indicating increase of appreciation of the light in his own soul. The position of the assembly according to the counsels of God was in view. That man was an object to heaven, and the light he received came from there, so that he could bring out the truth of the heavenly Man and the complement of the heavenly Man, the assembly.

G.N. Paul's gospel was distinct.

J.T. Yes, there was nothing partial about it, no cloud attached to it. It was clear shining. "The radiancy of the glad tidings of the glory of the Christ" was what he preached. Luke invariably supports Paul, and Luke gives the excess of grace, which accords with this chapter, that men are to have a place in heaven, 'for his great love wherewith he loved us'. We are subjects of His great love, and then at the end of the passage we get "the exceeding riches of his grace"; another mark of our position; so excess marks it throughout. Luke it is who records that the Lord told the disciples to "rejoice because your names are written in heaven"!

Ques. Are these verses the unfolding of the assembly's position?

J.T. Yes, and that in the future God might show

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the exceeding riches of His grace. Israel and the nations are not great enough for that. It is only comparatively lately that one has had such a sense of the import of the 12th hymn -- the heavenly position: "Heavenly light makes all things bright"; everything is seen in its true relation in the light of the assembly's position. If we do not see that, we only see things partially.

Rem. The light in the sanctuary had to do with what was inside.

J.T. Yes, the candlestick was to show you what was inside, not what was outside in the wilderness.

Rem. "The seven lamps shall give light over against the candlestick". Numbers 8:2.

G.N. What about the candlestick in Revelation?

J.T. The assembly is also a light-bearer towards men, so that there should be light there. It is "the pillar and base of the truth".

Ques. Would you say the distinctive light of the assembly is allegiance to Christ? ... "Thou hast left thy first love".

J.T. Abiding in His love is more than allegiance. Paul set the assembly in the affections of Christ consciously, that is where he left it. He understood his mission. Isaac is the type of Paul's great thought, a man alone, a heavenly man outside the current of things here, having lost his mother, and without an object for his affections; Paul understood that. John Baptist heard the voice of the Bridegroom, but John did not bring in the bride. He heard the voice and he rejoiced, but he does not bring in the bride, though he says, "He that has the bride is the bridegroom". But Paul brings in the bride. He perceives what is needed and brings in the assembly, and not only so, but he says, "I have espoused you unto one man"; his heart was taken up with that Man, and he feared lest the saints should be corrupted in regard to the simplicity of the Christ. He presented

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the assembly as a chaste virgin to Christ; Ephesus was his masterpiece; he brought before the Ephesian saints the whole counsel of God, all the heavenly light was brought out, he held nothing back of the full range of divine counsels and in the centre of all stands the Man. He wished them to "know the love of Christ".

G.N. Three things in Acts 20 are to be specially noted: the grace of God, the kingdom, and all the counsel of God. Is righteousness connected with the kingdom, and counsel with the love of Christ?

J.T. Christ is seen in all His divine attractiveness in the centre of the divine domain -- breadth, length, depth and height -- "the love of Christ which passeth knowledge". What an object for the hearts of the Ephesians! Paul set up the assembly in all that light, and in that way no one could equal him in the service he rendered. But we shall never touch counsel unless we know righteousness. Grace reigns through righteousness. John labours at it in his epistle: "If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him".

G.M. Why is so much importance attached to righteousness?

J.T. On account of the conditions here in the world. You get it constantly mentioned in the Psalms and prophets: "borne witness to by the law and the prophets".

J.S. All that adjustment is supposed to have taken place here, so our sinful course is not dealt with, but what God does at the end of such a course -- we being in death.

J.T. Yes, it is God coming in because of His great love; viewed here we are regarded as dead Godward, not one pulsation toward God. Out of this state we are quickened with Christ.

J.S. I suppose the counsels of God can thus be

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opened up because there is a company in whom the work of God has taken effect?

J.T. Yes, the assembly at Ephesus is so formed that God can bring in His mind as to the whole. It is a universal letter, a sort of circular letter perhaps; one company is so formed by the truth that the Lord could open out the truth as to the whole assembly.

J.S. It was not abstract, it had taken effect somewhere.

Ques. "Let him that stole steal no more", is that righteousness?

J.T. Yes, "not to steal" is righteous, but a negative way of putting it; but "to give" is positive righteousness: "rather let him labour ... that he may have to give". The form righteousness takes is that we give. That is what God is doing. The lack of righteousness has brought on the assembly all the difficulties. In the Psalms we have a "righteous nation" contemplated, which enters in. If you have a righteous people, you have a people in whom God is complacent.

G.N. Here Jew and Gentile as such are set aside and the new man brought in.

J.T. In Colossians He has reconciled us in the body of His flesh through death, that is the setting aside of the man who dishonoured God; that is the negative way of putting it; but in Ephesians, it is the positive side, "in one body".

G.M. Reconciliation works out in the practical care one for another.

J.T. God is delighted with the new man, and his traits are seen in the body. He has reconciled "both unto God in one body". Where enmity was, there is now love; and where two were, there is only one. You cannot have the assembly, nor realize the principles that govern it, if there are two wills.

Ques. Is that why our past history is spoken of?

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J.T. Well, it is recognized, but Godward, what you were before Him, not before men; it is not that men saw these things, "dead in sins", etc. But out of that God has quickened us.

Rem. Righteousness and life have reference to earth. Our position in this epistle is in heaven.

J.T. Romans is the adjustment of things on earth. Man is constituted righteous and made to live, that is all adjusted here; it is an important principle that the Lord did not leave an undefeated enemy behind Him, and no good general would; and then He could move on; if you move otherwise, you are in jeopardy.

G.M. He completed the victory.

J.T. Yes. As all is adjusted in your soul you can move; now you can go to heaven, as it were. It is due to God that there should be adjustment, but our position in heaven is entirely a question of God's love. Romans is the adjustment of every issue raised on the earth, including the promises to the fathers.

Ques. What is the distinction between the riches of His grace and the glory of His grace?

J.T. The glory of His grace is that there is a certain satisfaction with God in the working out of grace, it is an allusion to the special satisfaction God has as the result of it; His glory has reference to what He cherishes. "Riches" would be the quality and unlimitedness of it.

J.S. Does verse 11 begin a fresh thought? Reconciliation is for the earth, it is how those who have this heavenly position appear on the earth.

J.T. Yes, reconciliation must come out on earth. God will not take anything to heaven that He is not pleased with. He takes to heaven what pleases Him; it is most important to see that there must be the adjustment of everything on earth; it must all be met, and a righteous solution of it arrived at. Romans is that.

Rem. A solution of all that which refers to earth;

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therefore you must be a good Roman before becoming an Ephesian.

J.T. "When thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness"; they are not yet on earth, but they are in the assembly. "God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints". When questions arise among us, there must be a right solution of them, or God cannot be with us; we may gloss over things, or patch them up, so as to have an outward unity, but it will not do; He is to be feared in the assembly of His saints; there must be a righteous solution of every problem raised in our midst. The Lord in the midst of two or three enables them to do it.

Rem. Judgment is to begin at the house of God.

J.T. Yes, "If it first begin at us ..." We must be in accord. This was lacking in the Corinthians, and discipline came in; "for this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep". Ananias and Sapphira were guilty of lying. The Spirit gives us this one instance to show that God was there. If Satan could have introduced that lie, it would have meant a denial of the presence of God by the Spirit. "Thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God". Then what follows that is, "Of the rest durst no man join himself to them". There was a certain wholesome fear, because God's judgments were there.

Rem. It is a good place to be in.

J.T. Yes. His judgments are our salvation. How important it is to learn righteousness by God's judgments.

H.B. If we were more ready to confess our sins, things would be simpler.

J.T. We should accustom ourselves to be frank and open. If God is in the midst and His judgments are there, we may have confidence to bring everything to the surface.

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Ques. Suppose you have a company who say righteousness is involved in certain circumstances, and another company who say it is not involved, how are you to get on then?

J.T. One company has not learned righteousness. Bring everything to the surface; the more we progress the less we cover up -- the less reserve. In the intimacy of family relationships everything is open and above board, and the less there are of "confidential" things; then there is room for God to bring in a righteous solution of everything. Today God rules the world providentially, not directly. If He ruled directly, the inhabitants of the world would learn righteousness; but He is ruling the assembly directly. God's judgments are there.

Ques. Will there be any judgment in the future day?

J.T. Surely. There was in Solomon's day. A case of difficulty arose, and who was to decide it -- who could tell the mother of the child? The man who could discern the mother was the man to rule.

Ques. What does that thought mean, having a "good report of them which are without"?

J.T. Your public ways must be right. It is a poor thing to be spoken ill of by the world. The order of things prevailing in the millennium prevails in the assembly, and consequently those in the assembly should learn righteousness. You come into fellowship, and brethren rejoice over you; but remember, you are amenable to the principles which govern the fellowship; they are God's principles and hence right principles; you must learn righteousness.

Rem. We are not left resourceless.

J.T. The epistle to the Corinthians supposes everything necessary for government, nothing needed outside. So the apostle says, If it is a matter pertaining to this life the least esteemed in the assembly

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is to judge; showing how small these things are compared with the spiritual side.

Rem. There are resources to meet these things.

J.T. It is most painful that local difficulties should take so long to solve. In many instances they should not take an hour when they take months. These things arise through charges against one another, and the one under reproach seeking to vindicate himself. The person who is under reproach, vindicating himself is the difficulty. You could settle things in an hour or less, if persons involved were prepared to surrender. One has no capability of taking up his own cause. "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right"? Morning by morning God's judgments come to light and fail not.

Ques. In what way could you surrender?

J.T. I would surrender to God and to my brethren. If fellowship means anything, it means that I commit myself to God and to my brethren. You are not your own vindicator. God has never put that responsibility on you. You have responsibilities enough, but He has not given you that. If brethren undertake to charge you with anything, the responsibility is theirs. Of course you are concerned about it.

G.N. There must be a divine way of meeting such things.

J.T. There is a divine way. Commit yourself to God and to the saints. He bringeth forth His judgments morning by morning, and your morning is sure to come. It is a question of waiting for your morning -- it is sure to come. God adjusts things; nothing more is wanted than to wait on God; wait for your morning. Of course, as I said, you are not unconcerned and you are ready to meet your brethren, always challenging your own heart, and owning all possible. The Lord came into the temple from the mount of Olives, John 8, and there was a

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woman charged with something. Well. He judged the matter; it was all clear, there was conviction there, and the accusers all went out one by one beginning at the eldest. A dejected procession! One has often seen the accuser go out; in time, he always goes out. Satan is the great accuser, and he has to go out; he is put out.

Ques. Is it necessary to learn in Peter's way as well as John's? I mean through stumbling?

J.T. I am sure we do; but we have no need to stumble; but if we stumble, it is a great thing to take advantage of the teaching of it, and the benefit of the discipline. God makes all things work together for good to them that love Him.

G.N. These incidents that come in from time to time among us are only God's judgments. He wants to work out some issue through them.

J.T. If division occurs, it is that the "approved may be made manifest among you". It is God's judgment; He knows who they are; you may not, but He lets certain things happen that you may know. But, depend upon it. He deals with the false accuser, of course the saints should do so; see Deuteronomy 19.

Ques. What is the Sun of righteousness arising with healing in His wings?

J.T. It is an allusion to conditions down here, what Christ will be to this poor benighted world; but we have a light above that. Ephesians is our light, and it says we are blessed "with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ". The point is not so much to emphasize the blessing, but the place in which we have it.

Ques. Is not all light heavenly?

J.T. Yes, in the sense that the luminary is in heaven, but it is not always so stated; for instance, in Genesis 1, it says, "Let there be light", but it does not say where it came from. So too, when the Lord

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Jesus was down here. He was "the true light". In Acts, it says the light came from heaven. Luke in his gospel confirms Paul; there man is not only justified, forgiven, and made to live, but he gets a place in heaven. Wonderful thought! In Luke 2, it was "peace on earth"; but now "peace in heaven". Luke 19.

G.N. What is the force of "raised up together"?

J.T. It is Jew and Gentile raised up together. The work of God is so effectual that they are taken together out of earthly surroundings and moorings. It is not resurrection, it is elevation, and in the end a literal elevation. This chapter contemplates the complete work of God from beginning to end, and delivers us from all earthly moorings and makes us perfectly at home above. When it speaks of "dead", it is not the death penalty in view, but that we had no pulsation Godward. So resurrection is not formally introduced, it is involved in quickening.

G.N. What precedes this? Is it the affections quickened?

J.T. Chapter 1 is what God wrought in Christ; chapter 2 is real, and in the saints. We are His workmanship. The whole work of God in us is in view; it is anticipative of what takes place at the coming of the Lord, but includes the current work in the saints.

G.N. It is important to take account of the operation of God in our souls.

J.T. Yes, the subjective side is in view. How could it be anything else? How otherwise could we be in heaven?

D.G. Could this be said of all christians?

J.T. It could only be said of those of whom it could be said. It is true of people, if true of them. Quickening is a real work in us. The passage includes every part of the work of God in those forming the assembly as said before.

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Ques. What about verses 8 and 9?

J.T. These verses are a parenthesis on the line of Romans, inserted here to meet the conscience; they are a sort of explanation, as showing our responsibility is not ignored. God has taken care of everything.

J.S. Is it a comment on what precedes? We get full salvation in people raised up and seated in heaven.

J.T. It is salvation not only from the enemy, but from this place, as set by the power of God in another place -- heaven.

D.G. Saved from all distinctions of Jew and gentile.

J.T. All that would cause such distinction is gone. The effect of that is practical unity. Chapter 4 is based on that. We are lowly and meek. That is one mark of the heavenly man -- lowliness and meekness and long-suffering. If we go up there, we come back like that -- like the heavenly Man. So we get in Numbers the heavenly colour -- the "lace of blue". Numbers 15.

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NORMAL ASSEMBLY RELATIONSHIP RESUMED

Revelation 1:1 - 3, 9 - 20; Revelation 22:16 - 21

J.T. If we look at the beginning and end of Revelation we may see how the Lord returns to assembly relationships at the end of the dispensation. It would help us to see how the Lord, after communicating all that was judicial on account of the defection in the assemblies, returns at the end to direct communication to the assembly and addresses it in His own personal character, so to speak, as Jesus. In the last passage read the thought of distance is dropped, it is no longer a revelation to his bondman but He returns to the acknowledgment of the assembly. "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify these things to you in the assemblies. I am the root and offspring of David, the bright and morning star". It would help us to see that, and also to see that the assembly is prepared for Christ. The Spirit and the bride say, "Come". She has appreciation of Him as so presented.

G.N. The beginning of Revelation shows the Lord in a judicial aspect. Was it on that account that John fell down? He had not seen Him before in that guise.

J.T. Just so; he was not accustomed to such habiliments. But what we find is that the Lord returns at the close to what He was among the twelve -- the Man they had known, the Man the gospels present to us. The habiliments He appears in before John here point to the declension which had already set in; whereas the last chapter supposes that recovery had taken place so that He is free to address the assemblies directly. At the beginning of the book the message is addressed to John. "He sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John".

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It has exercised me, the way that has been made for the man of sin by people having been diverted from Jesus. God's idea of a man is presented in Jesus, and recovery and preservation from the man of sin is in the revival of God's thought, and in the Man that is presented by the Spirit.

G.N. That is a real touch of grace. It is what you get in the gospels.

J.T. Yes; they present that Man, and the gospel announced by the twelve and by Paul presents that Man, and the effect was that appreciation of Him was begotten. Now, there has been the giving up of that, and a return to such a man as you get in Simon Magus who gave out he was a "great one". He would purchase what the apostles had to minister in order to add to himself. So too when the man of sin is brought in, he acquires all he can of Christianity and clothes himself in it to add to his greatness. Thus the conditions described in Revelation 2 and 3 have been brought about, but at the end of the book, the Lord announces Himself as Jesus, and the Spirit and bride appreciate Him; they say "Come". They want that Man, not antichrist. It is a question of what sort of man we want. "If another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive", the Lord said. The end of Revelation shows that there has been recovery to Jesus. God presents His idea in a Man, and the feminine side then comes in. The idea is laid hold of and worked out femininely, so to speak. At the close, the bride is ready for the Man presented in the beginning.

G.N. Why is the Spirit connected with the bride?

J.T. He has done His work. He has been here all these centuries and never given up the divine thought, and now like Abraham's servant He has brought the bride. It is like Rebecca at the end of the journey, she veils herself; it was Isaac who

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was to be seen, not Rebecca; she was not to shine in her own beauty but in Isaac's. Thus in result, the assembly comes down from heaven in the grace and glory of Christ; the full measure of a Man is seen. Hence we need not be dismayed by conditions obtaining in the history of the assembly; God brings in at the end appreciation of Christ -- the Man He delights in.

Ques. Will you say something as to the place Philadelphia occupies now in the light of what you have been saying?

J.T. Philadelphia shows there has been a return to the appreciation of Christ. John is personally engaged with what is eternal, he is "in the Spirit on the Lord's day", a state suitable to the assembly calling. He is in circumstances suited to the testimony "in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus", showing that he had that Man in his heart. It is all a question of what is in your heart; what is in your heart you bring out. John shows later that the spirit of prophecy is the testimony of Jesus. The whole spirit and point of prophecy is to make room for that Man. Prophecy embraces all kinds of men -- Gentile monarchies, kingdoms, etc., but the spirit of it is Jesus. Every opportunity the Spirit has, He suggests that order of man. It is to that Man the earth belongs. John was in the isle that is called Patmos for the testimony of Jesus -- he had that Man before him. He was also in the Spirit on the Lord's day, that is, he was occupied with what is eternal.

G.N. John comes forward when declension sets in.

J.T. He was like a reserve man. Christ did not tell Peter anything about John. Peter would like to have known. "Lord", he enquires, "what shall this man do"? But John was following -- Peter might

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have known he would be available as needed by the Lord. He did not decline; he was in a state suitable to the assembly on the Lord's day, abstracted from the world, and occupied with what is eternal.

G.N. This characterised his ministry.

J.T. He was engaged, we may say, with his heavenly calling, and the Lord calls him back. Hence the voice is behind John. It must have been a painful thing for John to turn from his proper calling, to be engaged with the assembly in her sad declension. So instead of communicating from heaven, the Lord appears in judicial garb.

Rem. This would give John's epistle an important place.

J.T. Particularly his gospel, as, morally at least, it comes after the Revelation. The gospel was probably written later. The Lord is using John to tell the assembly about its declension and the judgments consequent on that declension; his gospel provides for the saints in view of this; it brings in heavenly things, that which refers directly to the assembly.

G.N. What is the thought of the golden lamps?

J.T. The Lord would call John's attention to what was set up here as a witness, then it says, "In the midst of the seven lamps one like the Son of man ... and girt about at the breasts with a golden girdle". It is the very opposite of John 13, where He was girded with a towel; in Revelation His affections are pent up; they cannot go out to the assembly, because of her state.

G.N. It all indicates that the Lord had a controversy with her.

J.T. Yes. In what met John's gaze, this and the other features -- His head and His hairs white like wool; eyes as a flame of fire; feet like unto fine brass, etc. -- all referred to the declension; the Lord was still there but in the character of a Judge.

J.F. How is it that under these circumstances

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John does not appear in a judicial or official character, but as a brother?

J.T. He does not call himself an apostle, simply a brother -- "your brother and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ". This attitude would secure the confidence of those who were self-judged. The assembly was not all gone; a remnant is supposed, and it is very comforting to such to have a brother, though distance does exist.

Rem. If assembly state had not been there in John, he would not have been able to look at what the Lord called his attention to.

J.T. Just so. In taking the place of a brother he puts himself in sympathy with those he addresses. It is a precious thought. A brother is born for adversity. The assembly is in adversity; sin has come in; how comforting then to know that the messenger from Christ is your brother and your companion in tribulation!

G.N. The spiritual would discern him.

J.T. Many do today. John has a place in the affections of the assembly next to Paul; he comes down to where the saints are.

Ques. Which is the greater from a moral point of view -- a brother or an apostle?

J.T. A brother. He is born for adversity. John introduces himself in this way in the time of the assembly's adversity. The apostle is connected with inauguration; the brother with continuance.

G.N. The way he addresses the assemblies would appeal to the affections of those who were right, he manifested the spirit of Christ.

J.T. Quite so; he represents what appears at the end -- the spirit that is seen in the bride. Recovery is in the spirit of John. Philadelphia is "brotherly love". Recovery lies in brotherly affection. It is a brother the Lord sends.

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Rem. There is nothing official about a brother.

J.T. No, there is a chord of sympathy. The idea of an apostle is authority, but every apostle is a brother or he would not be qualified to be an apostle.

Ques. What is the difference between the testimony of Jesus and the testimony of the Lord?

J.T. The testimony of our Lord implies His authoritative place; the testimony of Christ is a question of the anointed Man, what God would bring to pass by that Man. Philip preached Christ to the Samaritans, whereas the same evangelist presented Jesus to the eunuch. The latter sets forth the Man. The testimony of the Lord is the kingdom; the testimony of God is what God is -- involving a wider circle. The testimony of Jesus is exceedingly interesting; it is the pattern Man, the order of man with which the earth will be peopled. The whole spirit of prophecy is to make room for that Man, and the race that springs from Him. "Of whom speaketh the prophet this", the eunuch enquires, "of himself or of some other man?" Philip thereupon announces Jesus to him. "Well, if that is the kind of man", the eunuch says in effect, "I must go, I am not like that Man". He was very different, and he knew it. In being baptized he virtually says, "I am not fit to be seen, that Man is". The eunuch would thus by the Spirit take on His character.

D.G. The presentation of Jesus would produce His features in the believer.

J.T. The Spirit is not satisfied till that Man takes your place. It is a question of working out His character in each one of us.

G.N. What is the thought of "the word of God", verse 9?

J.T. When the word of God is mentioned it is a question of His mind, but then we have here the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. If the assembly had been content with that Man we would

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never have had chapters 2 and 3 of this book, nor the presentation of Christ in this judicial character. It all arises because the assembly was turning to some other man. Amid all that, it is very interesting to find that John had not declined; he had to be called back from his heavenly privilege.

G.N. He was in an out-of-the-world condition.

J.T. Yes; something we know very little about, but it was common in the early days. No one is fit to touch prophecy till he has known the heavenly. You may map out things, but you do not arrive at anything. The man who tells us about these things is the man who is in the Spirit on the Lord's day.

Ques. Is this state in keeping with Ephesians?

J.T. Exactly. If the beauty of the Man had been maintained in the saints there would have been no leaving of first love. The assembly quickly moved away from Christ. Paul was the reflection of Christ in Ephesus, and yet in his letter to Timothy, the sad fact comes out that he was disregarded. Among other things he says, "All they which are in Asia be turned away from me". The way Samuel was treated corresponds. The most stiff-necked in Israel could not deny that he was a prophet and that he faithfully served Israel; no one dared to say anything different, and yet in face of that the people would displace him by a king. So with Paul; the light the saints in Asia had came from him, and yet they turned away from him. It is a keen test in ministry; the power of it cannot be denied, and yet there is disregard for the vessel of it. There was no thought yet of apostasy, it was simply that Satan came in and dislodged the apostle from the minds and hearts of the saints; and this meant that Christ was losing His place with them.

G.N. John's ministry produced the state necessary for recovery.

J.T. When Peter asked the Lord what John would do. He did not disclose what would happen.

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It became current among the brethren that the apostle would not die, but John in writing of it adds, "yet Jesus said not unto him. He shall not die, but If I will that he tarry till I come" -- John does not enlighten our curiosity either; he just leaves it. The book of Revelation is the explanation of it. The Lord always has a reserve; such are usually kept out of sight till the time arrives that they are needed.

J.F. You are prepared for such instruction as laying down your life for the brethren, by John's writings.

J.T. John lays the basis for what will hold in declension; that is life and the place the brethren have in the counsels of God. They are the brethren of Christ -- John 20. The spirit of Christ thus marks them; as His brethren He breathed into them.

G.N. What is the force of the word to John -- "Fear not; I am the first and the last, and the living one"?

J.T. He controlled all and was the living One; He identified Himself with John, laying His right hand upon him. John was to serve in a living way. All this judicial array had no reference to John personally. There was nothing in John to condemn; he was quite immune from all this. Furthermore the Lord says, "and have the keys of death and of hades" -- the control of all evil. It is a great comfort that the Lord has the keys of death and hades, that no evil can touch you unless He permit it.

A.F. The ministry in the gospel of John would be for recovery.

J.T. Yes; it furnishes and supports the saints in the last days. Its peculiarity has been recognized by all, but its significance is being specially proved now. When the Revelation was given, all was to be written in a book and sent to the different assemblies. John's gospel would support the remnant in this state of

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things. In Revelation he opens up the responsible side, putting responsibility on each assembly; and while fully owning all that was commendable, what was wrong would be dealt with. The Lord places the responsibility where it belongs; He fixes it; like Deuteronomy 21, fixing responsibility as to the slain man. Then you get the penalty attached to failure. But what about the remnant? Those who love Jesus need more than that. The gospel of John comes in. Sardis had a name to live and was dead; a title without an income; a name without life. The gospel of John brings in life, so there is revival, and Philadelphia is the product of that. There Christ has His place, and what goes with the position is alluded to in the address to the overcomer. John's gospel in a sense brings about Philadelphian conditions, and enables Christ to announce Himself to the assembly at the close as if there were no distance.

D.G. Does the fixing of responsibility produce recovery, or is it the presentation of the Person?

J.T. It is due to God that responsibility should be fixed. If trouble is in a meeting it is right to fix it, but recovery is by the presentation of Christ according to the aspect of His Person that may be needed to meet the particular conditions.

G.N. John gives a reason for writing.

J.T. Yes; his gospel was written "that ye may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing ye might have life in his name".

G.N. What brings in Laodicea?

J.T. The light the Lord has graciously given has been taken up by natural ability, and man clothes himself with it; thus the way is made for antichrist, and God is shut out.

G.N. Light and intelligence in the truth apart from subjective state.

J.T. Yes. There was no travail in Laodicea.

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hence nothing for God was brought forth. In Philadelphia there had evidently been travail, so Christ in character is brought forth.

Ques. Will you say a little as to the fixing of responsibility?

J.T. The addresses to the seven assemblies fixed the evil in its varied forms that had arisen in them. Take Ephesus; a certain thing marked that assembly, and the Lord brings it home and calls for repentance, and if repentance does not become manifest there is penalty. The gospel of John supports those who judge themselves. In Ephesus there is the effort to recall the saints to first works, but you do not get that after Thyatira. After that the saints are pointed on to what will be; they are to hold fast what they have until the Lord comes.

J.M. That which encourages the individual overcomer will form the blessing in a universal way. Compare Revelation 2:26 - 27.

G.N. Why does it say "to the assemblies" and not "to the assembly"?

J.T. Local responsibility is in view. There is no such thought as a general council; each assembly is locally responsible. The addresses to the assemblies establish the principle of local responsibility. Ephesus is not held responsible for the sin of Thyatira and vice versa. The responsibility is fixed where it belongs. But these assemblies are also symbolical of successive periods in the history of the whole assembly.

It is very beautiful the way the Lord returns to the simple attitude of Jesus -- "I Jesus". He comes back to the thought of the Man; and then the Spirit and the bride say, "Come". This is not to go to where Christ is, but to bring Him in here. Of course the Lord will come for the assembly and take her to heaven, but this is not the point here.

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D.G. If you judge the spirit of antichrist, your heart rises to the presentation of Jesus.

J.T. Yes, and you wish Him here.

"We look for Thine appearing;
Thy presence here to bless". (Hymn 200)

G.N. "The hidden man of the heart" is the ideal.

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WISDOM'S HOUSE

Proverbs 9

J.T. I think it will be seen that the assembly is in mind in this chapter. The assembly is an establishment of wisdom, and in its principles and furnishings it is complete, needing no fresh legislation. This book properly fits in with Colossians. There we are brought into the kingdom of the Son of the Father's love, and we see the part wisdom has in it -- a hidden wisdom.

Rem. That is the point in Colossians 2 where the apostle speaks of the mystery of God "in which are hid all the treasures of wisdom and of knowledge".

J.T. I thought so. This book runs alongside of Colossians, and goes into Ephesians. The kingdom in Colossians speaks of His authority, but that of the Son of the Father's love. There is great prominence given to wisdom in these early chapters of Proverbs. It is a question of God's best in regard to His operations. There are other features, but wisdom is His best in regard to His works. Of course love underlies all.

Rem. No difficulty can arise, but you can count on wisdom to meet it.

J.T. Quite so. No more furnishing is needed. The public history of the assembly is marked by an increase of legislation. This chapter would show there is nothing needed, it is a question of applying what is there. What wisdom does is the last word so to speak. Chapter 8 gives us wisdom's history from eternity. "I was set up from eternity, from the beginning, before the earth was". Chapter 8: 22 - 31 does not refer to its operations, but wisdom's presence as the operations of Jehovah proceeded. The One who operates is Jehovah. "When he appointed the foundations

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of the earth: then I was by him". Chapter 8 gives the details of its relations in a past eternity to enhance its place here in its service as amongst men. Giving an account of itself it does not refer to its part in the operations, but to its presence while the operations proceeded. Chapter 9 speaks of what wisdom does amongst men here on earth. That is the great point in the chapter. But when it gives an account of itself in relation to God's operations in the past, in the formation of the universe, it was present. It was there, nothing transpired without its presence, but Jehovah was the Operator. It is to impress upon us the importance of wisdom now; it has to be attended to, it is God's best; what it does cannot be improved upon. Wisdom is seen particularly in what it builds.

Ques. Is there enough in the seven pillars to support the testimony?

J.T. Yes, seven is the perfection of anything, the perfection of support here. The testimony has no need of human support. In the Reformation they missed those seven pillars. They turned to the secular powers.

Ques. In chapter 8 is wisdom not a Person?

J.T. It shows itself in a Person, or Persons, it was present in the divine operations. It was in divine Persons, but it is regarded by itself. It was present in God. Other qualities are personified in this book too. The Lord in Luke 7 personifies wisdom. "Wisdom is justified of all her children", but it was in Himself the thing was fully expressed.

Ques. How is wisdom seen in Chapter 9?

J.T. It answers to the way we see it in the Acts and in the epistles in the construction of the house of God. It came out in persons, but it involves the Spirit. So Paul says he was a wise master builder. That was wisdom in the apostle. Paul was the architect, but wisdom operated in Paul. You could not

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call Paul wisdom. The word here is in the plural, just as in Genesis 1 the word for God is in the plural. This shows the matter in hand is of supreme importance. "In the beginning God created". It was no ordinary matter. So in the building of the assembly there is the same thought. It is a great matter; there is nothing greater as a creation than the assembly.

Ques. Is it not the gospel in chapter 9?

J.T. Yes, but notice, you get the idea of an establishment. You get that in the words "turn in hither". There is a house, a place providing all that men need, I mean spiritually. That is quite rightly used in the gospel, but what we get in this chapter goes further.

Ques. 1 Corinthians 1?

J.T. Yes, that helps us on that point, to see that wisdom is brought in as correction. There was departure from what wisdom had done at Corinth, and wisdom is brought in by way of correction.

Ques. Is the building limited to the apostles?

J.T. No, every one may build according to 1 Corinthians 3:10. "Let each see how he builds upon it". Wisdom is viewed as in persons. Christ is "God's power and God's wisdom".

Ques. Is it indicated that there was a work in the past eternity?

J.T. I do not know of anything having gone before chapter 8: 27. In verse 22 wisdom came into evidence, not into existence, because it is inherent in God. It came into evidence as He operated. It was there. "Jehovah possessed me in the beginning of His way, before his works of old". It evidently came into view as operations became necessary. It was inherent in God; the wisdom spoken of was the wisdom of God.

Rem. In His operations God intended to display

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wisdom. Other things were displayed such as power, but pre-eminently wisdom was to shine.

J.T. Yes; nothing can be added to what it does, what is done here is perfect, which is an important matter, because it would dispose of any attempt to introduce innovations into the assembly. Can you conceive of Gabriel suggesting any improvement in the creation? It is just as logical as to suggest any change being necessary in the ordering of the assembly. The work is perfect, there is nothing to be added to it. Wisdom is the last word, so to speak. Of course love is behind it, but it is as if He said, I will make the provisions of my love as perfect as they can be made.

Ques. What does the apostle mean when he says, "Who has been made to us wisdom ..."

J.T. Just what we have been saying. It is what is in the Lord Jesus. He is the wisdom of God. You can see in Him the supreme expression of it. It had been in operation before, but He became Man and as such is the full expression of it. But it is in the saints too, and the Holy Spirit emphasizes that. Verses 27 - 32 are to show us that it was present in the operations of God, it was there. God used it in the creation, but the point is to exalt wisdom now, to make it great in our eyes.

Rem. Wisdom suggests infinite resource.

J.T. That is right, resource in the way of meeting difficulties, in the way of operation.

Rem. Divine skill has been used in the building of the assembly.

J.T. That is what comes out here, wisdom has done it. Ephesians says, "That now to the principalities ... might be made known through the assembly the all-various wisdom of God". That is what we are speaking of, the assembly is the great thought of God. That is the force of the personal pronoun used in the first verses of chapter 9 --

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"She hath hewn out her seven pillars, she hath slaughtered her cattle ..."; all the things are her providing, and hence they cannot be improved upon.

Ques. How do we learn wisdom?

J.T. It is in Christ, you learn everything in Christ. You may learn it through others now, but primarily it is a quality that is expressed in every way in Christ. Hence the children of wisdom are begotten of that quality as found in Him.

Rem. Christ is the wisdom of God; if we follow Christ we learn wisdom.

J.T. You see it in the gospels, but the Holy Spirit having come down from Him. He takes up others, the children of wisdom, to carry on the great work of building. Christ is the Builder, but others are employed. Wisdom is doing it, and it cannot be added to or improved. That shuts out all church councils or legislation since apostolic times. Not that we do not need to come together and take counsel, but we take counsel as to how to apply what wisdom has introduced.

Rem. "Ye are complete in him".

J.T. Yes. In Him all the fulness was pleased to dwell. All that God is has passed within our range in Christ, and we are complete in Him, that shuts out all human wisdom. Of course the saints are children of wisdom, and hence ordinarily know what Israel ought to do.

Rem. Verse 1 is the structure, verse 2 the furnishings.

J.T. Quite so, it gives the idea of a place, somewhere to turn into; the house should have a place in our preaching.

Rem. There is something there answering to the heart of God.

J.T. Yes; it is God's house, and also what He furnishes for men.

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Rem. "Turn in hither", there is something to come into.

J.T. That is it.

Ques. Would it suggest Luke 14 and 15? The invitation in chapter 14 is for man; in chapter 15 it is for the pleasure of the heart of God.

J.T. Exactly. Chapter 15 shows that the believer is made suitable for the house. The gospel includes the assembly. What God has established is perfect in itself, you can add nothing to it, and you are invited to come into it. Wisdom is calling attention to it.

But there is a counter religious system, there is another "woman", and it captures many. Wisdom is calling attention to the quality of her building, her furnishings; she does not fail to let people know about it.

Rem. The order would be significant. First the positive sphere of blessing, then as you are attracted into it, you become proof against the foolish woman.

J.T. Wisdom hath sent forth her maidens: "she crieth upon the summits of the high places of the city". We see all this in the Acts.

Ques. What do you refer to in Acts?

J.T. I was thinking of Paul. Before he got his commission he was preaching that Jesus was the Son of God. Then he went to Antioch, and there he taught in the assembly for a whole year. That was all in wisdom. Then he goes out with Barnabas, and sails for Cyprus, and goes the whole length of the island, and finds Bar-Jesus. It says they found him. He was a Jew. Grace would find the Jew however bad he was; he was a "child of the devil". He was no subject for the gospel, but they found him, and if they did not get him for Christ they rendered him useless for the enemy. It was not final, it was only to be for a season; as if the grace of God would say of the Jew, I will save him some day. He was with

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the deputy of the island and he was hindering that man. And the deputy was amazed at the teaching of the Lord. Preaching ought to take the form of teaching when necessary, or you will not get intelligent men for the assembly. Where did he see the teaching of the Lord? In the apostle. Then Paul and Barnabas proceed, and go to Antioch of Pisidia, and enter into the synagogue and sit down. No pretension of being great persons, just men among men, and when they ask them to speak, Paul speaks. It is wisdom in preaching to wait for an opportunity. Some say we ought to come together and wait till the Spirit moves someone to preach. That is a very poor thing. They asked Paul to preach, and he preached. Then in chapter 14 they go on to Iconium, and they "entered together" into the synagogue. Why together? There must have been something beautiful about those two men, two men linked up together in the love of God; and they "so spake that a great multitude of both Jews and Greeks believed". It was the manner of their speaking. Then in chapter 16 they come to Philippi, and he does not preach, but he finds out what there is of God in the place. There were some women there who prayed. He was greatly tested. There was no great movement of God outwardly, but there was a great movement of the devil. One with the spirit of Python followed him day by day. But he was grieved, and removed the cause of it. The Lord had already begun to work in a woman's heart. He had opened Lydia's heart to attend to the things spoken by Paul. Then he is cast into prison and the Lord works again -- in the jailor. Wisdom was in all this building her house.

Rem. Wisdom was effective in all the different circumstances. Wisdom was there.

J.T. At every place there was a change of circumstances. The building and preaching were both

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marked by wisdom. If the preaching is not marked by wisdom, the material which accrues is very difficult to build with.

Rem. In preaching the gospel there is the side of meeting man's need, but there is also God's side, and consideration for that would bring in material suitable for the house of God.

Rem. Wisdom attracts, she cries out, "Turn in hither".

J.T. What comes out in the next paragraph, verses 7 - 12, is instruction concerning reproving men. We have to discriminate so as to know how to deal with them. If one is a scorner, there is no use attempting to reprove him, if we do, it will only react on ourselves. "Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee; reprove a wise man, and he will love thee". We have to discriminate in our service, there are those you cannot help at all.

Rem. Wisdom in the assembly can adapt itself to every circumstance.

J.T. Wisdom enables you to discern between the wise man and the wicked man.

Rem. Is it connected with what is inside?

J.T. Yes; generally, but also there are those who have committed themselves to opposition; they may not mean to oppose Christ, but it is evident they are doing so, and you have to leave them.

Ques. We speak wisdom among the perfect, is that the thought?

J.T. Pretty much, but wisdom is to enter into all our service. He that winneth souls is wise.

Rem. If some definitely make up their minds to resist what the Lord is giving, there is no use parleying with them.

J.T. No, but there are wise and righteous men. "Teach a righteous man, and he will increase in learning".

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Rem. It says, "I speak as to intelligent persons: do ye judge what I say", 1 Corinthians 10:15. They were supposed to be intelligent.

J.T. That is right. This paragraph is specially helpful to the young for it tells how to begin to be wise. "The fear of Jehovah is the beginning of wisdom". That is the way to start getting on your own feet.

Rem. The fear of Jehovah lies at the beginning of all spiritual progress.

J.T. That is most important for young people to see. The fear of the Lord is the way to enter the divine school.

Rem. The dying thief made a good start: he feared God. Joseph too could say to his brethren, "I fear God".

J.T. How rapidly the thief learnt! how quickly he acquired knowledge as to the Lord! "Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom". He saw that the One hanging at his side was a King, and had a kingdom. The deputy at Cyprus too learnt quickly. He was amazed at the teaching of the Lord.

Rem. If we had a greater sense of the One who is Son over God's house we would be more adaptable to the teaching.

J.T. There are 13 Maschil Psalms, psalms of instruction. The first is Psalm 32, and they run through the books up to Psalm 142. The first one speaks of the blessedness of sins forgiven; if young people began with the knowledge of this blessedness and how it is reached, we should have good material for the assembly.

Rem. The two who went to Emmaus, as returned to Jerusalem, were great assets to the meeting.

J.T. Exactly, they had gone through a course of instruction. One who begins with the Psalms of instruction, becomes intelligent in all that is of God. In the mystery are hid all the treasures of wisdom

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and knowledge. We need to know the mystery, we cannot afford to be ignorant of it.

Ques. What is the mystery?

J.T. What we have here, the assembly, is outside man's range of vision. It is hidden. The principles of it are in the parabolical teaching of the Lord in the gospel. He deliberately hid things from some people. A parable is to hide from certain people, but to make things intelligible to others. Colossians is a hiding epistle. The great danger in entering into the land, passing from the realm of flesh and blood into the realm of the Spirit, is the desire to take certain things with us, such as human learning and culture, so the idea of hiding is introduced. Certain things are hidden from the wise and prudent but revealed to babes; that is Colossians. We want to be among the babes. All the treasures of wisdom and knowledge are hidden in the mystery. We must not cast our pearls before swine.

Rem. Our life is hid.

J.T. Yes, with Christ in God. In Luke 21 we read of the Lord that "by day he was teaching in the temple, and by night, going out, he remained abroad on the mountain called the mount of Olives". Where is He? What are His living associations? He is not found where men usually are. There is something mysterious about Him. And so with christians; they are not found in the haunts of men, you do not find them everywhere. How are they kept going? The point is our life is hid. In Matthew after having spoken certain parables, the Lord asks His disciples. Do ye understand?

Rem. The secret of the Lord is with them that fear Him.

J.T. If the secret had been kept, we should have no Babylonish system such as we have around us now. That has come about by the secret being exposed, as we see in Isaiah 39.

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Ques. Why is it that so often when difficulties arise we do not get the full benefit of the operations of this wisdom?

J.T. That applies generally. The word is, Is there "not a wise man among you?" Like the wise woman in 2 Samuel -- The city was about to be destroyed, and she cried out of the city. And then she went to all the people of the city in her wisdom. She took account of every one in it, and she delivered the city. If a difficulty arises in a meeting, it may be right to conceal knowledge, but that can only go to the point; then you can conceal it no longer. The time comes when you must declare it, but it must be to all the people. The wise woman went to all the people in her wisdom and the man's head was thrown over the wall and that was an end of the trouble. That today would be to the assembly. Normally if you state the case rightly there you will get right judgment.

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THE DIVINE PRESENCE IN THE ASSEMBLY

Exodus 40:17 - 38; 2 Chronicles 5:11 - 14

These scriptures treat of the divine Presence here on earth, that is, in the sense of God coming in and dwelling. In one sense God's presence is universal, and always has been. The apostle speaks of all living and moving, and having their being not by God only, but in God; a fact that is hardly noticed save by believers. In creating, God intended to keep His hand on all things. And indeed, without this, the universe could not subsist, for although it may appear to be self-contained and self-acting, in truth it is not. It is kept going by God. Even the fulness of the earth, vegetables, trees, fruits, all have their origin directly from God. The apostle says of a grain sown, it may be of wheat or one of the rest of the cereals, that God gives it a body. And that makes God very near, which intelligent believers recognize and profit by. We pray to Him in relation to material things, the rain, the weather, as of Him. This makes Him very near to us even in ordinary affairs. The apostle says He is "not far from every one of us". And he was speaking to unbelievers -- Athenians.

God creatorially viewed thus calls forth the worship of His children. We must not leave out His creatorial glory. It is not all, of course, but He is a faithful Creator. And the Preserver of all men, too, however much they disregard Him; He is the Preserver especially of believers. We have always something distinctive. And hence piety in believers brings in the Creator. Every creature of God is good, to be received with thanksgiving, sanctified by the word of God and prayer. Sanctified, so that the meals, the clothes, the houses of believers thus held are different in this sense from the meals, the

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houses and clothes of unbelievers. These things are sanctified to us by the word of God and prayer. They are not sanctified to those who disregard the word of God and prayer.

I intend speaking now of God coming in, not creatorially, but on the ground of redemption. He alone, being Creator, had the right to take up redemption, and He took it up. And in taking it up, He discharged all the liabilities that lay upon us and, I may say, upon the whole universe. He discharged them in the death of Christ. His redemptive rights He takes up as a Saviour God. As believers we know it is good for us to allow Him full liberty with us in this respect. The more liberty that God has with us, the better. And what is a greater blessing than God known dwelling in us? For God dwells in those who love Him, and they dwell in Him. God has thus a right of way in us. He has a right of way everywhere, but to secure it He has to use force at times; He will do so in the future, to clear the ground of lawlessness. Sometimes He has to use force with believers in the way of discipline, to make a way in our hearts. A solemn thing: but God is faithful and wishes to dwell in us, and so if He has to resort to severe measures it is in love He does it, for He will assert His redemptive rights, and what He has in view is to dwell. And what can be greater than that, that God Himself should desire to have an abode in us? So that He brings it about that he that dwells in love dwells in God, and God in him. We must have this balance.

The New Testament abounds with references to these facts, and of course it is, I might say, the first and the last word for christians, but it has no greater authority than the Old Testament. Some think it has, but the Lord would teach otherwise. He said, "Destroy this temple", meaning His body, "and in three days I will raise it up". And it is said that

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after He was raised from the dead, His disciples believed the Scripture, and the word that Jesus had said; John 2:22. That is, the Scripture comes in before what Jesus had said. The "Scripture" refers to the whole of the Old Testament. John 2 shows that the Scriptures have equal authority with the words of Jesus, and the whole New Testament. But there is this difference, and believers are apt to stop in it, that the New Testament is written in our own language, as it were, whereas the old is not; it is generally written in typical language. It is thus neglected and here much is missed. The Lord expounds to two wayward believers, "beginning at Moses and all the prophets", the things concerning Himself.

What I have been speaking of abounds in the New Testament, but the references to the divine dwelling in the Old exceed even those in the New. And I would say further, that the divine dwelling is not only blessed as a matter of enjoyment, but it has a distinguishing feature referring only to those who are fellow-citizens of the saints and of the household of God. Mere light may distinguish us, but it is not the divine Presence: this cannot be imitated or outdone. As God says, I will send My angel. Moses says, We want Thee. I wonder if that is the language of our hearts, dear brethren, that we want God with us. Moses says, How shall we be distinguished save that thy presence go with us? They had the tabernacle, and all that went with it, but that is not what is in Moses' mind. He says, "Is it not by thy going with us? so shall we be distinguished, I and thy people". And God gave them His presence in answer to His servant's wish.

Earlier, in Egypt, He had distinguished the people by many occurrences, but He does not refer to any distinguishment of them until the plague of gnats is mentioned. That is, until life came in, that out of

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the dust living things were made. These were felt by the Egyptians, man and beast, to be a positive evidence of the power of God. That is a principle of God, and of that plague God gave no notice to Pharaoh, as He did of the other plagues. It meant that God Himself was coming in in living power, and that meant the overthrow of Pharaoh. So the scribes and magicians say, "This is the finger of God". Those who try to imitate life proceed no further. They cannot imitate it. No one can produce life but God. And hence those who live spiritually are distinct. That is the first great distinguishing feature of the people of God, that they are made to live. But that was not enough for Moses. He wanted the presence of God, and God granted it to him.

Now I want to show from these scriptures the two leading thoughts entering into this great subject. Exodus corresponds with Romans and Corinthians 1 and 2; 2 Chronicles corresponds with Colossians and Ephesians. Christians ought to understand these things if we are to understand the assembly. For the dwelling of God certain conditions are necessary, such as the coming in of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost involved; it was God coming into suitable conditions. That is what I want to speak about.

Acts 1 and 2 furnish the conditions, things being inaugurated permanently. The disciples seen in chapter 1 were the handiwork of the Lord, the material He provided. They were all gathered in one place while the feast was running its course. The feast of Pentecost is, in the type, not bounded by time at all, as the other feasts were, it is unlimited, and I believe the feast of Pentecost therefore runs on, in a spiritual sense. So they were together in one place, they were all there. I want you to notice that word all, for it bears on our local companies. Meetings should be attended; if we are to

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get anything of what I am speaking of, there must be the recognition of assembling ourselves together; "not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is". Hebrews 10. So that it says they were all there -- as if that was a condition -- as if the absence of one or two would mar the condition. They were all there.

Being all there with one accord, they heard a sound. When we are gathered together in assembly we should wait for the sound from heaven, to shut out all others; at Pentecost it was "as of a rushing mighty wind". That is, the Holy Spirit came in under those circumstances; and it says, "it filled the house". Who can afford to be absent when there is such filling as that? The Lord Jesus is gone into heaven that He might fill all things. He is now filling believers -- the assembly. And so the Holy Spirit was sent down by Him. And there appeared unto them "parted tongues, as of fire, and it sat upon each one of them". How great was that occasion!

I am not suggesting for a moment that we have Pentecostal times, but we may have something in the way of correspondence, but this depends on suitable conditions. And so earlier, the Lord came amidst His disciples as conditions warranted it. The two who had been going to Emmaus came back and found the eleven, and those who were with them, gathered together. That is Luke's point of view; he has the assembly in his mind. And some were saying the Lord was risen, and further that he had appeared to Simon, one who had just denied him. In other words, they were full of the thought of the resurrection of Christ, and of the grace that marked Him -- He had appeared to failing Simon. Those from Emmaus said that He was made known to them in the breaking of bread. That was the conversation of the brethren on the day of resurrection. And as they were saying these things Jesus Himself

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stood in the midst. These were the conditions, and He came and stood in the midst and said, "Peace be unto you".

John records an appearing, but he mentions different circumstances. He says it was in the evening of the first day of the week, and the Lord came where the disciples were. The authorised version says, "where they were assembled", but it should read, "where the disciples were", that is where the persons were. It is well to be alive to the greatness of believers as indicated here. John speaks of one hundred and fifty-three great fishes; undoubtedly there is an allusion there to the greatness of the saints which is in keeping with John's line; it is personality. So the Lord came to persons. What were the conditions? The doors were shut. What did they have inside? Well, not much as men reckon. They had no college training there. John does not make much of apostles, he never emphasises the official side; he calls them the twelve just twice, but he never mentions apostles. So he is not speaking of officialism, but the greatness of the persons as having believed on Jesus. "This beginning of signs did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested his glory; and his disciples believed on him". These are the ones, believers through the manifestation of the glory.

Besides being believers, they had just been ennobled by the Lord's message through Mary. "Go to my brethren and say to them, I ascend to my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God". That was the message. Think of the dignity of these people as that message came into their souls, as they understood that they were His brethren, the brethren of this wonderful Person! He was ascending to His Father and their Father. His God and their God. They had this inside, and

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He came and stood in the midst, and said, "Peace be to you".

These things correspond to the passages I read. You will have observed in the verses in Exodus the repetition of the words "as the Lord commanded Moses". You might have said it would be enough to say that once; but not enough for the Spirit of God. If I know the treachery of my own heart, I know the need to have that drilled into me. Is there anything in our meetings contrary to what the Lord commands? The next thing is that Moses takes each item of the tabernacle furniture and places it, after setting up the tabernacle. He takes the ark and puts the testimony into it, and takes it inside into the holiest of all. That is its position, and it is functioning, it has the testimony in it. It is not a mere piece of furniture, there is something there, the testimony is in it. The testimony is where it will be taken care of. That is the principle. This is needed today where the Person of Christ is attacked; and the testimony of God is somewhere where it can be taken care of. It must be inviolate. Then the veil, that covers the ark. Then the table -- is it a mere piece of furniture? No, the loaves are on it. That is, every piece is in its place, and functioning as in its place. There is no room for my will, but the will of God. He set up the candlestick, and lighted the lamps before the Lord; the table on the north, the candlestick on the south. He places the altar of incense, and burns incense on it. Nothing is idle. I am speaking of the local meetings, for these things are of little value unless we answer to them. The present economy of the assembly is in each locality where the saints are walking in the truth, each being in his place and, as in it, doing something. Not what he wished to do, but what is proper to him. Each is to know what he is to do. Exodus is most explicit as to what each item is for.

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Then he hangs up the curtain of the door where it renders service and outside that, he places the altar. Is that a mere religious symbol? No, it is to be used. Nothing is in the assembly but there is a purpose for it. He offered up upon it burnt offerings and meat offerings, "as the Lord commanded Moses". And the laver is in its place with water in it, and Moses, Aaron, and Aaron's sons washed in it; it is used. All these things are of the utmost importance in every local company, if that local company is to realize the divine Presence.

And Moses finished the work. The tabernacle was anointed with oil; this must permeate all. The excellency of the power of these things is to be of God and not of us. All is functioning and answering to the mind of God. Moses finished the work. If one thing is important in Scripture it is completion, this principle runs through. God finished His work on the sixth day, He rested on the seventh. The Lord said to Sardis, "I have not found thy works complete". A good deal goes on that is not finished. Moses finished the work, and then it says, "the cloud covered the tent of meeting, and the glory of Jehovah filled the tabernacle". Look at that, beloved! God had really come in, it was Himself: the glory of Jehovah, as it says, filled the tabernacle. As at Pentecost, they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and they all functioned; they began to speak of the great things as the Spirit gave them to speak. They were all doing it. What a wonderful day when those one hundred and twenty were speaking of the things of God, in the power of the Spirit come down from heaven!

"Moses could not enter into the tent of meeting, for the cloud abode on it, and the glory of Jehovah filled the tabernacle". If I make application to the assembly when convened, it applies to the first part, answering to "the assembly of God which is in

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Corinth". This is a question of the Lord's authority, but as Moses ceases to minister, the thought of authority drops out, the glory filling the whole scene.

That is, the public or authoritative side merges in the spiritual, which is seen more fully in Chronicles. Some of us may not have followed the teaching of 1st and 2nd Chronicles but that is our loss. That is the difficulty one often has in seeking to help believers from the Old Testament; by many it is not studied. But it is written for us. The material for the building spoken of in Chronicles is not exactly as from all the people; that is the point of view of Exodus; the outcome of God known in the covenant. Every believer knowing the love of God, provides something; the love of God being shed abroad in the heart. But in Chronicles it is David dedicating things; and Solomon and other distinguished persons give, but the great volume of the material is from David himself; one hundred thousand talents of gold, one million talents of silver: it is Ephesians, it is the unsearchable riches of Christ; He is building a house with those riches. You do not get "of thine own have we given thee" in Exodus, this is the point of view of Chronicles. Today it is from Christ. David speaks of what he brings in relation to his affection for the house. That is how matters stand in Chronicles, so you have a building of immense wealth and glory, to be exceeding magnifical. The Lord says, "On this rock I will build my assembly, and hades' gates shall not prevail against it".

In 2 Chronicles 5 it says, "it came to pass when the priests were come out of the holy place ... when the trumpeters and singers were as one, to make one voice to be heard in praising and thanking Jehovah ... the priests could not stand to do their service because of the cloud; for the glory of Jehovah filled the house of God". This is the final thought, beloved brethren. One could say a good

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deal about this wonderful type, but I had in mind to show that it is the Ephesian side, the side of God doing all through Christ: and the magnificence of it. It is not now merely a question of Moses being shut out, but of priestly service even being stopped. Why should it be stopped? If God comes in under these circumstances He says, I want the whole scene to Myself. Is He not worthy of it? And if He has the whole scene, what will He not do! He will fill it Himself. It is God Himself coming in this wonderful way. It is not a question of everyone being in his place, but of living voices with cymbals and trumpets; one hundred and twenty priests with the choicest of the Levites all praising Jehovah. As they were as one in praising Jehovah, then the house of Jehovah was filled with a cloud, and the priests could not stand to do their service because of the cloud; for the glory of Jehovah had filled the house of God. This passage, dear brethren, is wonderful. It presents what may be realized as we are "in assembly" -- the fulness and blessedness of the divine Presence. Here, God is "all in all".

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THE SERVICE OF GOD IN THE ASSEMBLY

Exodus 40:17 - 38; 2 Chronicles 5:11 - 14

J.T. What I have in view is ground often covered, that is, the assembly as seen in the letters to the Corinthians and Ephesians, and these scriptures, I think, serve to amplify the truth set out in those letters; Exodus corresponding with Corinthians, so that we have what Moses did and everything is according to the commandment, the giving of distinctive persons not being in evidence, but rather the giving of the people as a whole, and the work attributed to them. Although Moses, as representing the Lord in His authority over us, is active, the work is attributed to the people and the giving too, and the glory coming into the tabernacle prevents the entrance of Moses, the priests not being mentioned; whereas in Chronicles the giving, in the main, is by David and Solomon and certain other leading ones, and we have the service of the priests and the service of song making way for the entrance of the glory. The two parts, therefore, of the assembly as convened, seem to be amplified in these two scriptures.

One may add that in moving about one observes more reference to the Lord, as such, than the constitution of the assembly requires or admits of. One notices the references to the Lord carried on almost to the end, that is, what is presented in Moses is carried forward, whereas Chronicles would emphasize the song side as making way for the glory.

F.W.W. Are you speaking of the meeting for the breaking of bread?

J.T. Yes, service in the assembly; that is, the assembly normally, as when we come together to break bread. Enough room is not made for the heavenly side, nor is it discerned, as far as I see, that the wealth of the assembly leading to the heavenly,

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is from God directly through Christ, as in the type through David and Solomon; whereas what is in the assembly from the Corinthian side, is more what comes through the saints. Taking the types as they stand, there is very little said in Chronicles about the offerings of the people generally and yet the wealth is excessive. David himself contributed a hundred thousand talents of gold and a million talents of silver. What you get in Chronicles is that "all the work was finished that Solomon made for the house of Jehovah. And Solomon brought in the things that David his father had dedicated; and the silver, and the gold, and all the vessels he put among the treasures of the house of God", verse l. You get nothing like that in Exodus; it is what the people contributed. They contributed more than was needed, but there is nothing said about any special person giving for the tabernacle, not even Moses. It is generally the people as a whole.

H.E.F. Do you mean that if things were normal when we come together, the first part of the meeting would answer more to Exodus and the latter part to Chronicles?

J.T. Yes; I think Exodus is carried too far in most of our meetings.

Rem. Have you in mind that the song makes room for God as Father?

J.T. Yes, that is to say, Psalm 22. "In the midst of the congregation will I praise thee".

H.E.F. Would you say that the psalm is the result of our appreciating all the wealth?

J.T. We recognize that all the wealth comes from God. That is what David says, "Of thine own have we given thee", 1 Chronicles 29:14. Everything that was there was from God. Chronicles is headship; God himself is Head according to the last chapter, verse 11.

H.E.F. So it is as we enter into the thought of

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what we are in the purpose of divine love, that the song is produced?

J.T. That is what I understand.

F.W.W. That is indicated in 1 Corinthians 11 -- "The head of Christ is God".

J.T. It is just indicated; you hardly get headship in Corinthians. It is the order in creation. You get God being Head of Christ, and Christ the Head of every man, and the man the head of the woman. That is the position of creation which is preliminary to the assembly. You do not get that in Colossians or Ephesians; you get Christ as Head of the assembly and Head over all things to the assembly in these epistles.

F.W.W. You get it developed there.

J.T. Quite so; you do not get the idea of God being Head of Christ in Colossians and Ephesians. Christ in Colossians is Head; He is not made Head; He is that, by virtue of His Person; but in 1 Corinthians 11 it is what He is as Man here, in relation to men. I would like that the brethren should consider what is a widespread practice -- the carrying through of Exodus in the assembly, whereas it is introductory. The assembly properly is where God shines, and that is what you get typically in the ministry of David and Solomon; that is where God shines in the fulness of the revelation of Himself as Father, so that the Son, in Solomon typically, makes room for that. You do not get the idea of sonship in Moses; it is authority -- lordship.

D.J. Is the thought suggested in the early part of Exodus? He brought them out that He might bring them in. Your thought is that we do not know what the bringing in is, but dwell more on the bringing out?

J.T. Thus in the song in chapter 15. Moses goes so far as to say, "Thou shalt bring them in, and plant them in the mountain of thine inheritance, the

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place that thou, Jehovah, hast made thy dwelling". That includes the ministry of David and Solomon.

H.E.F. Have you in mind that Chronicles has not previous history in view?

J.T. Yes, as this is seen in Colossians and Ephesians. In 1 Chronicles 11, Israel says to David at Hebron, "We are thy bone and thy flesh". Spiritually this corresponds with Ephesians. Then there is the wealth that comes in through David and Solomon. I think we ought to see how headship and wealth go together. It is not what the Lord commanded David, but what he did, and what Solomon did, and the immense wealth accruing. It is important to notice the wealth that comes in, especially through David: one hundred thousand talents of gold. If you compute that according to modern values, you will see what is meant. It suggests the "unsearchable riches of the Christ". Then a million talents of silver; and these are just two items. There was refined gold and silver that he furnished from his own private means.

D.J. Why does it not say the weight of the copper or the brass?

J.T. It is all to emphasize the idea of the volume of the wealth.

Ques. What would you say about the glory coming in in Exodus as well as in Chronicles?

J.T. The glory comes in whether the assembly is viewed in the wilderness or in the land. They merge. In the wilderness Moses was unable to enter because of the glory; in the land the priests could not stand to minister by reason of the cloud. The ministry of Moses and the ministry of David and Solomon really coalesce in Christ. If Moses had entered into the land, merging, as it were, in David, and had a son, whom you might call the "son of the father's love" such as Solomon was, and a son taken up by God Himself as His son, then you would see the

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thing more clearly. But time has nothing to do with this, and we have to link the two ministries together; both are intended to enter into the assembly. We have to regard them in the light of the assembly: Exodus referring to Romans for the individual, and Corinthians for the public company; and 1 and 2 Chronicles to Colossians and Ephesians. If they are taken up in that light, there is immense wealth of instruction, and we begin to see that at a certain point Moses' ministry ends; the glory brings it to an end, so to speak. He could not enter the tabernacle. Of course, it might be said that the ministry of the priests ends, too, in Chronicles, but it is in direct connection with their service that the glory comes in; still, the priesthood is an official thing in itself, and so ends also.

F.W.W. What would indicate that change of position in a practical way?

J.T. I think the Lord's supper comes under Moses; that is to say, it comes under Christ as in authority; but as soon as Christ is apprehended as Head, you are on the ground of 1 Chronicles, and it is a question then of the wealth that comes in, the wealth that you apprehend in Him, inclusive of course of all that is in the assembly. But you begin to see it is all from Him, and it grows.

F.W.W. So it is not a question of a particular time in the meeting, but a certain spiritual apprehension.

J.T. Yes, although the breaking of bread must have its place. Then we ought to be governed by the light that governs any position; because a good deal enters into the part we take, and whether it is taken intelligently, whether in the light of Exodus, or in the light of Chronicles.

F.W.W. In the latter part the song would be directed to God.

J.T. Surely; the end in it is the glory of God.

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Rem. In Exodus it says that the glory filled the tabernacle, but in Chronicles it filled the house of Jehovah.

J.T. The tabernacle suggests what was movable, the wilderness position. The temple affords a greater thought. The staves of the ark were drawn out; there was to be no more movement, you reach finality here.

Ques. Is it the same in 1 Kings? We get the same expressions as in Chronicles, of the glory filling the house.

J.T. Just so. Kings does not give you the service of song, that is in Chronicles. In Kings headship is not so prominent. David is weak in Kings. The glory is in both; but Chronicles provides for the singing.

G.W.W. Why do you put so much emphasis on the singing?

J.T. Because that is what the Lord is engaged with as He has His place in the assembly. You do not get any singing in the tabernacle. You have the one song in Exodus 15 but you get no singing in the service of God in the tabernacle, and that is in itself a guide.

Ques. Is that what you mean by carrying Exodus too far? It really hinders the singing.

J.T. Yes; singing in the assembly is in relation to Christ as Head. It is, as it were, under Solomon.

F.W.W. An apprehension of this would greatly help us as to oscillation. We often find the Lord addressed, and then the Father, and then we come back to the Lord and so on.

G.W.W. Singing to the Lord, and apprehending the song the Lord raises in the midst of the assembly, are two different things. Is that what you have in mind?

J.T. Yes. The first is quite right, a song to the Lord. It is suitable that we should greet Him, not

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exactly as in our midst, but in heaven. A song to the Lord is quite acceptable to Him, and seemly. It belongs to the wilderness; lordship in that sense belongs to the wilderness.

Ques. Why does it say in 2 Chronicles that the priests could not stand to minister?

J.T. I think priesthood is official, as lordship is official. That is to say, it refers to the exclusion of evil and the state of holiness we are in; but that is to bring us into liberty, so that we might take up sonship.

Rem. In one way it meant that no one could stand to minister in the assembly when the glory filled the place.

J.T. I think sons as such are free. I do not think priesthood will be necessary in heaven, because there is no unholiness to exclude. It is mediatorial, as exclusive of evil and maintaining what is due to God. Holiness is a relative thought, to give us liberty to be as sons before God, in family relationships. The cessation of service as the glory enters indicates that the scene typified in itself is delightful to God -- even without activity.

E.J.S. Would singing to God the Father indicate a state of liberty to address the Father apart from all that is on the responsible side, as entering into what is purely privilege?

J.T. That is just what I was trying to bring out from these passages; the first dealing with the public position under the authority of the Lord, every one being in his place. You will observe in the passage read, that every item of the tabernacle was set in its place, and was functioning; it was not set there in an ornamental way or waiting to be used, every item was functioning.

E.J.S. So there is something amiss with us if there is not this functioning?

J.T. Yes. Normally each member of the assembly

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is in his place, and is functioning in his place; he is not simply sitting there idly, waiting to be used. It is a living organism all under Moses, so to speak, and all is constructed according to commandment, but headship is not prominent.

F.W.W. It would be connected with the expression, "the Lord's day", preparatory to "the first day".

J.T. Exactly; the Lord's day fits more with Corinthians.

G.W.W. What you mean by "functioning" is that you see the candlestick lighted, the table with the shew-bread arranged, and so on. It is not merely that the things are there, but they are actually fulfilling the purpose for which they are there.

J.T. Exactly. Thus (in the anti-type) each is in his place. It is a question of recognizing the Lord's authority and ordering.

F.W.W. This functioning would characterize both brothers and sisters?

J.T. Quite so; if a sister is there, she is not there as a piece of wood, she is living. Corinthians, especially chapter 12, shows the organism.

Ques. You spoke of it as being a question of an intelligent apprehension of the position. Do you think the secret of not moving on would be our state? There is the authority of the Lord and as coming under Him as Head, if the suitable state were there, we should move on.

J.T. I think so; you would be ready for the Lord to take up another attitude -- that set forth in David and Solomon -- which He is ready to do as soon as He is accorded His place as Head.

H.E.F. I was wondering whether we have sometimes grasped the thing in intelligence, but have not been in the exercise of it.

J.T. Well, it is a question as to whether we have grasped the thing in intelligence, for if we had, we should not have the oscillation that has been referred

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to. We have hymns and a giving of thanks to the Father, and then maybe a brother gets up and gives thanks to the Lord, and thus carries us back to Exodus. I wonder if there is much intelligence, notwithstanding all the Lord has been bringing before us.

E.J.S. What goes on in the assembly should be progressive.

J.T. I think so. If we are on the ground of 1 and 2 Chronicles, we shall give the Lord full latitude. He is Head, and what will He not lead to! The wealth becomes greater and greater, as you apprehend Him thus.

Rem. The exercise should be to take it up intelligently.

J.T. Yes. Then, of course, the affections must be in keeping with our intelligence; as you get in the two prayers in Ephesians. First, the "spirit of wisdom and revelation in the full knowledge of him ... that ye should know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints", what God has there; and then "the surpassing greatness of his power towards us ... which he wrought in the Christ". Then in chapter 3 the apostle prays that the Father "of whom every family in the heavens and on earth is named" might give us to be "strengthened with power by His Spirit in the inner man"; that we might be "fully able to apprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and depth and height; and to know the love of the Christ which surpasses knowledge; that ye may be filled even to all the fulness of God". Those two prayers apprehended prepare us for the service of God in the assembly as it is presented, typically, in Chronicles.

G.W.W. Would you carry the thought of priesthood into Colossians and Ephesians?

J.T. I think priesthood always has place in our

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service whilst we are here in this world, as needed to protect us, and to protect the things of God. We cannot read the types without observing the very great importance attached to priesthood, whether in Christ or the saints. The maintenance of what is for God in every way depends upon it -- that is, in view of the continuance of sin in the world. It enables us to enjoy sonship.

G.W.W. That is what I want to get at, so when the Lord speaks of singing, the brethren come into view: "I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee". We are contemplated there as brethren of Christ and sons of God more than as priests.

J.T. Surely. The doors being shut is a priestly thought, it is for the exclusion of what would hinder us. Then, "he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him", and love being made "perfect" casts out fear. All that fits us for having part in the assembly.

Ques. How far does the covenant suggested in the cup, take us?

J.T. It brings God to us more; as known it sets us free as regards God. It does not take us as far as the family of God. The covenant is between God and men, between God and Israel. We come into it, but it is not between the Father and His sons; that is clear enough. What do you think?

Rem. I wondered whether it was preparatory to assembly privilege.

J.T. Certainly it is. It deals with us in our responsibility here, as in Romans and 1 and 2 Corinthians, but not as in Colossians and Ephesians.

Rem. The box would be connected with the first part of the meeting and the responsibility side.

J.T. That is right. All matters relative to the wilderness position belong to the first part of the meeting; that is clear enough. You do not need the

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box in heaven; it is other riches you get there -- the "unsearchable riches of the Christ".

H.E.F. Would you say that if Christ gets His place as Head with us, we should move with Him rather than address Him?

J.T. Yes; He is then on our side.

H.E.F. And therefore, He would move towards the Father.

J.T. Clearly that is the thought. This is well-known ground, but I do not think Exodus and Chronicles have been seen as clarifying it.

D.J. So you make a difference between singing to the Lord and singing with Him?

J.T. Surely; there is a very great difference there. He is on our side when we sing with Him. "In the midst of the congregation will I praise thee".

D.J. It is a necessity for Him to have a company in which He can sing; is that the idea?

J.T. Yes, the assembly is necessary to Him in the service. Then the wealth which He brings in comes into view. It is all from God.

G.W.W. We are then in the presence of the "unsearchable riches".

Ques. Where is the wealth introduced in the scripture in Chronicles?

J.T. David thought of numbering the people, which will never do for the assembly. Of course, the Lord does value His people, but not from David's standpoint. He was numbering the people as an ordinary monarch would, but that will not do for the house of God. In chapter 21 the judgment is meted out to him, and he is directed by the angel through God to go to the threshing-floor of Ornan the Jebusite, and he goes there and sees the sword sheathed there. It is not at the tabernacle; he was afraid to go to the tabernacle because of the sword of the Lord, but it was sheathed at the threshing-floor. Now he says, "This is the house of the Lord

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God" -- it is where judgment has come to an end. There is no punitive judgment in the house of God. There may be discipline, but not judgment. The sword is sheathed there. David saw that, and he bought the place. He gave fifty shekels of silver for the threshing-floor; but here it is six hundred shekels of gold in weight; which is far more valuable than fifty shekels of silver. He bought the place, meaning evidently that he would have plenty of room for building.

Rem. There was nothing there yet actually.

J.T. No, but to his mind the house was there.

F.W.W. Would you say he had rather God's side in view? The shekels of silver would be more on our side.

J.T. Yes, in 1 Chronicles 21, we are on much wider ground than 2 Samuel 24, "And David gave to Ornan for the place in shekels of gold the weight of six hundred shekels".

G.W.W. Chronicles contemplates his buying a place for the house and all the courts. He sees God's delight in having courts filled with people pleasurable to Him.

J.T. That is it, and we ought to get that idea in the assembly. 2 Samuel confines the record to the altar and the offerings; 1 Chronicles includes the house.

G.W.W. The vastness of the whole thing!

J.T. In chapter 22 David says, "This is the house of Jehovah Elohim, and this is the altar of burnt-offering for Israel", and then he begins immediately to provide for it. "And David commanded to collect the strangers that were in the land of Israel; and he set masons to hew wrought stones to build the house of God. And David prepared iron in abundance ... and brass in abundance ... and cedar-trees innumerable"; and so forth. Later he says, "In my affliction I have prepared for the house of Jehovah a

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hundred thousand talents of gold", verse 14. If anyone can compute the value of that the immensity of the wealth will be seen. "And a thousand thousand talents of silver; and of brass and iron without weight, for it is in abundance". Then he directs Solomon to add to that.

G.W.W. You cannot say that the tabernacle in itself gives any great idea of costliness, but the house does. The construction of the house leaves you with that which you cannot comprehend; the immensity of the wealth is more than the mind can grasp, but you can easily apprehend the wealth that comes before you in the tabernacle.

J.T. That is what I thought. We begin in sitting down according to Corinthians. It is a question of order, each one being in his place and everything according to the commandment, and functioning. That is how the matter stands, and the glory comes in in that connection. Now that glory would not be what you get in Chronicles. It is connected with guidance; the cloud is there for guidance, with movement in view; you have not reached finality yet, there is something beyond this. Of course, it is wonderful if the Lord is apprehended coming in in that way, and God coming in in that connection -- but we have not reached finality in that. We ought to see that headship in Christ, leads to finality.

Rem. The introduction of Christ as Head at that point would produce the song and bring the wealth to light.

J.T. You begin to see the wisdom of the Head, and the vastness of the things connected with Him.

Ques. How is Christ introduced as Head?

J.T. It is in our being able spiritually to pass from Moses to David and Solomon, especially Solomon, because it was Solomon who built the house; it is a question of being able to pass from one thought to the other. The attitude and movements

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of Christ in the assembly are affected by the state of those forming it.

E.J.S. It says that He was made known to them in the breaking of bread; what would that correspond to?

J.T. I think that is the transitional period. As they were saying that, the Lord came in according to Luke 24.

E.J.S. I was thinking that it would be the moment when we pass from His lordship to headship.

J.T. That is so. You will notice that in Luke He does not go much beyond what is seen in Moses. It is priestly, but it is the wilderness position. "Have ye anything here to eat?" That is the position down here.

F.W.W. You do not get the mount of Olives and the singing of the hymn in Luke; that is more the Solomon side.

J.T. The reference to Luke 24 greatly helps on this point, because the Lord may have need to adjust us, however intelligent we may be as to what we should do. They were perturbed; they were not just ready for a manifestation, and so the Lord adjusts them.

F.W.W. Is that why the passover occupies such a large place in Luke?

J.T. I have no doubt it is so, and what happened after the resurrection had in view the service in the gospel testimony, that they should be prepared for it. But in John 20 the doors were shut, and there is no perturbation at all, nor, as compared with Luke, does the Lord say much. That is, you have introduced the idea of enjoyment. He says, "Peace be to you" twice, that is leading us into what belongs to the first day of the week, which synchronises with Ephesians.

Ques. Would the song come in when we are beside ourselves to Him?

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J.T. Well, we are beside ourselves if we are; I should like to meet some people who are or have been!

Ques. Is it possible for a few moments?

J.T. It is if we pursue these lines. You are absorbed in the Person as you apprehend Him.

G.W.W. Why do you think we are so detained on the Exodus side and so slow to pass over to the Chronicles side?

J.T. It is want of heart and power in the inner man. One observes it even with intelligent brethren, that they seem to remain on Exodus ground.

F.S. Do you think if we waited we should enjoy it?

J.T. Yes, spiritual power in silence, as in John 12:2, 3. There is nothing to indicate that they were taken by surprise in John 20, they were prepared through Mary's message. They were enriched by it.

G.W.W. That was the opening of the treasury.

Ques. To go back for a moment, I wondered what you had in mind in regard to each one taking his place on the Exodus side?

J.T. Each one would sit down, not as a member of a congregation, but as intelligently alive to his position: "We being many are one bread". That is the idea; we are linked up together in a living way. All is under the lordship of Christ for the moment, but as soon as He is accorded His place as Head, you have a change and the wealth comes into evidence.

G.W.W. Do you think we accustom ourselves in our daily individual pathways too much to lordship overlooking headship? We have proved Him as Lord in our various pathways, but we have not been to Him for impulse as Head? Is that the secret of the slowness that there is, and the oscillation. It is very precious to realize headship, and we are not to be satisfied with just a few minutes; it is to be the characteristic of the main part of the meeting.

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J.T. I am sure if we were set for that the Lord would lead us into it.

G.W.W. We would not perhaps go against any commandment of the Lord; but that is not headship.

J.T. The headship of 1 Corinthians 11 is to prepare us for headship in the assembly, so that a man, in his house, ought to set it out in some little way. Every christian household ought to get not only the idea of authority but of headship.

Ques. We would hardly get it in the assembly if we did not get it that way?

J.T. That is so. Corinthians prepares for headship in the assembly. You have there, "So also is the Christ", that is, the anointed vessel here, what is public. That is the tabernacle anointed, and everything in its place and functioning; the recognition of Christ as Head comes in under these circumstances. The temple was not anointed. The dignity is not in the anointing as regards the temple, but in the material there, the gold, and the various timbers used. The dignity is typically in the persons there; not in anything being put on us, but what we are. That is where the dignity lies. What we are before God is not a question of the anointing, but of what we are personally; it is a question of relationship -- sonship, in which we have the Spirit as the Spirit of adoption. Anointing is for testimony.

G.W.W. The fact is we have to give ourselves more to the understanding of headship. We have said the Lord must have His way and must be submitted to, and that is imperative but it is not headship.

Ques. Do you think the owning of Christ as Head would give character to us day by day?

J.T. If you see a man in his house moving in intelligence according to the pattern set out in Christ, the whole house gets light from that, and so when the members of it come normally into the assembly,

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they see headship perfectly in Christ, and the wealth that belongs to it.

G.W.W. In that way a house properly adjusted is education for those who are in it.

J.T. It is remarkable how in Chronicles you see the houses of certain men contributing to the service of song.

G.W.W. Their sons and daughters are spoken of in detail.

J.T. A study of the word "head" in 1 Chronicles is most instructive as to this point; David brings it forward and attributes it to God Himself, see chapter 29: 11.

F.W.W. You referred just now to the second prayer in Ephesians. It is a question there of the "inner man", what one is.

J.T. Quite so, and that is what gives dignity to the second part of the meeting. It is not only a question of regularity and order. You are struck in the end of Exodus by the stress laid on anointing and order, but in Chronicles it is that "Solomon assembled the elders of Israel, and all the heads of the tribes, the princes of the fathers of the children of Israel" -- all that spiritual wealth -- "to Jerusalem, to bring up the ark of the covenant of Jehovah out of the city of David, which is Zion. And all the men of Israel assembled themselves". Notice "themselves"; it is a question of spiritual intelligence and power to assemble ourselves. "And all the men of Israel assembled themselves to the king at the feast, that of the seventh month". That is to say, we are in the full height of the spiritual year, the seventh month. "And all the elders of Israel came; and the Levites took up the ark. And they brought up the ark, and the tent of meeting, and all the holy vessels that were in the tent: the priests, the Levites, brought them up. And king Solomon, and all the assembly of Israel, that were assembled

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to him before the ark, sacrificed sheep and oxen which could not be counted nor numbered for multitude". There you see Solomon and typically all that wealth of spiritual intelligence, not only in him, but also in those that "assembled themselves".

G.W.W. Do you think it would be safe to say that unless we come in for this side of things we shall not be men of spiritual wealth? We may be under lordship, right and proper in its place, but that in itself does not make you a man of wealth.

J.T. It is most important to see as in Chronicles, that as Christ is apprehended as Head, His great wealth comes into view -- "the unsearchable riches of the Christ".

Ques. Would you mind going on to verse 8 of 2 Chronicles 5?

J.T. It says in verse 7, "And the priests brought in the ark of the covenant of Jehovah to its place, into the oracle of the house, into the most holy place, under the wings of the cherubim; and the cherubim stretched forth their wings over the place of the ark, and the cherubim covered the ark and its staves above. And the staves were long, so that the ends of the staves were seen outside the ark before the oracle". That might mean that the staves were drawn out, which was probably the case. "But they were not seen without. And there they are to this day. There was nothing in the ark save the two tables which Moses put there at Horeb". That is, you get a clear view typically of Christ -- apart from what He is in relation to the wilderness. The pot of manna and the rod of Aaron were not there.

G.W.W. That is, the One who is Head. Under headship you get direct spiritual impulse.

J.T. Yes, we are for the moment out of the wilderness. You see what an assembly such as is indicated here would be: "All the men of Israel assembled

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themselves". They are doing it. It was "men"; intelligence is in evidence.

E.J.S. And the result is there is one voice in the singing and praising; they are brought to that point of unity. There cannot be anything less than unity if we are really under the direction of the Lord as Head.

J.T. "When the trumpeters and singers were as one", verse 13.

F.W.W. The trumpeters are very prominent.

J.T. The passage is full of spiritual richness. The parenthesis -- from the middle of verse 11 to the end of verse 12 -- is to enhance the wealth.

Ques. What about Colossians in regard of singing? It says, "Let the word of the Christ dwell in you richly, in all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another, in psalms, hymns, spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to God".

J.T. That is general. It is not properly the service in the house, but it keeps you at the spiritual standard; your state is kept on a high level by that means. Notice it says, "When the trumpeters and singers were as one, to make one voice to be heard in praising and thanking Jehovah; and when they lifted up their voice ..." There is great spiritual richness expressed harmoniously through musical instruments and song. The great number of trumpeters and corresponding volume of trumpet sound here, must be connected with Numbers 10:10. It alludes to the acknowledgment of the rights of God's love. They are not simply blowing into an instrument and making a noise, but here the voice is saying something, and rightly taken, it is expressing certain thoughts in the heart. It is a definite consequence of the divine work in the heart that there is an answer going back to God, and what greater triumph could there be for God at the present time than that there should be people in these conditions

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we are speaking of, that are brought under headship and answering to the purpose that God has in view for them. There is wonderful triumph for God in that.

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GATHERING

Acts 17:1 - 4; 1 Thessalonians 1; 1 Thessalonians 2:1 - 14

J.T. It occurred to me that a consideration of these scriptures would help in regard to gatherings that fluctuate. Seaside gatherings such as this have this feature. It is important in such circumstances to maintain the distinctively local character. What comes and goes is merely excess. The assembly at Thessalonica furnishes an example of this, because what is stressed is the essentially local character of those who compose it. It is the second "apostolic" assembly in Europe, which should be noted. The assembly at Rome had not the advantage of being founded by the apostle, nor had that at Colosse. This assembly was founded directly by Paul, and the record in the Acts shows that the apostle went in among them, and on three sabbaths reasoned with them in the synagogue; so that they had testimony not only as to what he taught but as to himself, for he was amongst them. Then we are told what the composition of the meeting was, that is, a good few of the Jews of the synagogue, and a "great multitude" of the worshipping Greeks, and "of the chief women not a few". But all are distinctively Thessalonians, being so addressed here, chapter 1, verse 1; it is not only the persons in the place but "the assembly of Thessalonians" -- composed of local persons.

A.E.L. When he says, "This Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ". Acts 17:3, was that the Messiah to the Jew, or was it to the devout Greeks?

J.T. Verse 2 says, "He went in among them" -- that is obviously to the synagogue of the Jews -- "and on three sabbaths reasoned with them from the scriptures". They were worshipping Greeks, you will observe; they were persons who attended the

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synagogue, so that the word in its Jewish setting would apply to them all.

W.W. Do you think that in Corinthians it is more the assembly in the place rather than the persons?

J.T. Yes. The point in Corinthians is, God's assembly in that city -- "The assembly of God which is in Corinth", although they are called Corinthians formally in the 2nd letter, chapter 6, verse 11, and that is to be noted too -- but what is stressed is that it was God's assembly in the place. But here it is "the assembly of Thessalonians in God the Father", not so much in the place, but that they were really of the assembly, being Thessalonians, and that they were in God the Father. The Corinthians had a much longer time in which to be formed, they had eighteen months of the apostle's ministry, whereas these people were not so favoured, and had only twenty-one days of it. After the apostle left, there was evident decline at Corinth, but those at Thessalonica got on wonderfully, though the next letter would rather show that there was decline here too, but it was not so serious as at Corinth.

H.W.S. What do you understand by "in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ?"

J.T. I think it is to show how lovable they were -- "the Father himself has affection for you, because ye have had affection for me", John 16:27. It is to bring out how dear they were to God the Father. In "the Lord Jesus Christ", is a further thought and implies the kingdom. Jehovah says in Jeremiah 2, "I remember for thee the kindness of thy youth, the love of thine espousals". What is said of the Thessalonians reminds us of this. There is the suggestion of youthful affection.

W.W. You were saying that would have a peculiar bearing on a seaside place, what is in your mind in that connection?

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J.T. It is important where the numbers fluctuate to hold to the ordinary composition of the assembly. It shows the work of God in the place, for that is the principle of a gathering or an assembly in a place, that there is a work of God there. Considering the different epistles each has its own distinctive character, and what we have said enters into the epistle to the Thessalonians. It brings out the peculiarly local character of the material or composition of the meeting or assembly. The exercise of visitors should be to link on with what there is locally; because if there is to be building it must be in that way. There are two ideas in Corinthians: one is that we are God's husbandry, and the other is that we are God's building, in any given place: it is a question of God, and of what God owns in the place. A visitor can hardly be built in there, although the whole assembly should always be in view; but an assembly meeting begins in its local setting.

Ques. Do you speak of all saints in a place, or of the local company?

J.T. We are speaking now in a practical way and we can only speak thus of those who are available, though we keep the idea of the assembly in mind. Josiah's passover was celebrated by "all ... Israel that were present", 2 Chronicles 35:18.

E.G. I think you have said that you cannot have an assembly in the place unless there are there some walking in the light of it.

J.T. That is true, you cannot apply the thought of the assembly to any place, unless there are saints walking in the recognition of it; if there are saints there, the Lord knows them, but not as an assembly.

Ques. Would the exercise in the past dispensation of preserving the distinctive place of each tribe bear on the matter?

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J.T. Yes; the tribe has to be kept in view. Even though Simeon was within Judah's territory, Simeon was Simeon. The local composition of an assembly ought to be always in view, however many come and go. I thought we might see that what exists in a locality is to be taken on, and whatever comes is to be linked on with that.

A.E.L. Will you say a little more as to the composition of this little assembly at Thessalonica.

J.T. I think it points to what God would regard as advantageous -- that there were in it. Jews, and "of the Greeks who worshipped, a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few".

A.E.L. Why are the chief women brought in?

J.T. It would check radicalism which assumes that there is virtue in outward littleness, and that persons of distinction in this world are at a disadvantage amongst the people of God. But I think God would show us in what is stated here that "the rich and poor meet together": it is to bring out the sovereignty of God. At Corinth the nobility were "not many", but here it says "not a few". A gathering composed of such elements has the advantage of calling forth the necessity for mutual forbearance. All of one kind tends to weakness, variety tends to strength, provided love is present. Without love you cannot go on, so that we must accept the necessity of it.

A.E.L. Here the apostle says, "Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God" -- God has chosen them.

J.T. That is a leading thought. God has selected the brethren, and I have to make up my mind that I must go on with His selection. There might have been a good reason for some of the inmates of the ark objecting to others, but their very presence called forth forbearance; so we have to forbear one another in love.

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O.G. That is emphasized in this chapter 3; "The Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men" -- that would enable us to go on.

J.T. Yes, and they were taught of God to love one another, chapter 4: 9. It affords scope for divine teaching in that respect, for if a person is more distinguished than I am it gives an opportunity for love: the very necessity calls forth the love. One point in the Acts is that the teaching is where it can be applied; divine teaching is not theoretic.

R.B. It is remarkable that John recognizes the elect lady.

J.T. Just so, and Luke recognizes the "most excellent Theophilus". But this point of teaching in Acts being applicable is important, I think it can always be applied locally. In chapter 11 Barnabas and Saul came together in the assembly "for a whole year" and taught; that is, as the truth of the assembly was brought forth it could be applied. So here "Ye ... are taught of God to love one another". If He teaches them love, it would be in evidence, for these "chief women" and those of the ordinary class at Thessalonica would be thus able to get on together.

W.W. The place these Thessalonians have in the affections of God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ would stimulate that feature.

E.G. The disciples were first called christians at Antioch.

J.T. That is of special importance, for it is God calling attention to a definite end reached in that place.

T.R. Contrariwise in the Corinthians love was not evident, and hence they were not functioning in the assembly; men were before their vision, and the thought of love was merely in a picture on the wall.

J.T. The fact that the Thessalonians were addressed

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as an assembly "in God the Father" would show they were really together in heart, for otherwise the Father would not be complacent in them. It helps to see how the divine record in the Acts bears on the actual inner state of the gathering afterwards. This letter discloses to us details which are intelligible as we see the divine record in the Acts. The apostle went in among them and he was very energetic in the three weeks he had been there, according to all he says in chapter 6; he was very energetic in exhibiting the varied traits of Christ before their eyes, showing how much can be done in a short time: on the other hand, the results seen here take a long time in other places. Divine love is patient whether it calls for a ministry of three weeks, eighteen months, or a stay of three years, this latter being the period spent at Ephesus. Here it was only three weeks, and the result was wonderful.

Ques. Would "as his manner was" be interesting here?

J.T. It reminds us that the Lord had a custom also. You may depend that such a custom as the Lord or Paul would have, would be an effective custom. It would not be stale as applied, although it marked him at every place, going in amongst people, and establishing mutual feelings -- not holding aloof from them.

Rem. So that if the other places where Paul went did not get on so well it was their fault.

J.T. That is obviously the way we have to take it; the Corinthians did not learn so quickly. It brings out the side of instruction in this book; it is greatly stressed, but then the other side is learning. There might be excellent teaching but the pupils may be dull. The Thessalonians represent persons who learn quickly. There are those who "learn to be idle"! -- a sorrowful thing; and there are those who are "always learning, and never able to come to

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the knowledge of the truth" -- another sorrowful thing! But there are those who learn as it is said of the Lord, "He wakeneth morning by morning, he wakeneth mine ear to hear as the instructed", Isaiah 50:4. The Thessalonians in measure learned in this way. The learning attitude is most important. Paul says, "I have learned". I do not want to miss anything; if a thing is to be learned, and others can learn it, why cannot I? It is a question of application, of laying myself out for it. It is worth while.

Ques. Do you think affection and quietness are two important things in learning -- like John leaning on the Lord's bosom -- that was affection: and Mary sitting at His feet and learning -- that was quietness.

J.T. That is good. Meditation is important too -- "Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things", 2 Timothy 2:7. Why should not I learn if others do? The thing is to be learnt. If the Thessalonians got on so quickly, why not I? If I am not learning I surely have to see to what is hindering me.

A.E.L. The Philippians had "learned, and received, and heard, and seen". Philippians 4:9.

H.W.S. Do you think the element of tribulation, as we see in the apostle's ministry here, has something to do with it? Is there a certain amount of suffering connected with learning divine things?

J.T. Clearly so; such suffering stirs up the soil. The joy of the Holy Spirit is the positive element.

Rem. In Hebrews we read of spiritual senses being exercised.

J.T. Yes, all the senses are needed. Dependence on the Lord comes in too. He helps us; "Consider what I say" -- there is the element of consideration -- and the Lord gives understanding. But then there is not only the individual learning that we are speaking of, but learning assembly-wise, to know how to

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sit and take in divine things with the brethren. That is what is in view here. In the Acts Paul and Barnabas taught a whole year in the assembly, and then you find that there were in that assembly certain persons who ministered to the Lord, as if the teaching was fruitful in something for the Lord. Here they can be called, "the assembly of Thessalonians in God the Father": they could not be spoken of as "in God the Father" if they were quarrelling. He must be complacent in them, showing how they were taught of Himself to love one another.

Rem. If we have learned something we shall set it forth.

F.I. Do you infer that getting at the truth of the assembly livingly, depends on our appreciation of our position locally?

J.T. I think so; Paul as he went in among them would give the Thessalonians light as to what was in the mind of God for them. And the truth of the body involves that I learn how to act body-wise in relation to the nearest persons to me, that is the brethren local with me; how to assemble with them, and do it body-wise, so that we come under the eye of God as pleasing to Him. There is nothing so delightful to God as love active among His people; it is what He is. It is delightful to Him to see the brethren moving assembly-wise, and that can only be by love, there is no other way. It is no mere theory: you get the principle in Exodus; as soon as any part of the tabernacle is set up, it is functioning: so a christian as in the assembly normally is functioning, but he cannot do it except by love. That is what is implied by "in God the Father"; they had a place in His heart.

Then you get other beautiful touches throughout these passages. They had become followers of Paul. The person through whom the light comes ought

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himself to be an expression of it; and if he is an expression of it, it is quite obvious I ought to take notice of how he does things, for we do learn from one another; it is the divine way. "Go into the city and it shall be told thee what thou must do", Acts 9:6. I have to learn from the brethren, and certainly through the persons through whom the light comes to me. But then they became followers of Paul and of the Lord. Paul in no sense exercised any personal influence on his own account; it was simply that he kept them on a right line by his example, which is a very important thing for those who serve.

A.G.R. It is very exercising that we should express the teaching we have received. How little we influence christians around us! We are thankful for children growing up and committing themselves, but we would like to see more result from those around us, and will not that be through our response to the truth in a living way? The thought of example is prominent here.

J.T. Just so. Paul was an example for them here and then they were an example for others. Then he speaks of what marked him during those few weeks he was among them -- the skill of a nurse and of a father -- he was both father and mother to them.

W.W. The apostle served three weeks, or eighteen months, or three years: he gives us the idea of patient service as it is needed.

J.T. You may depend on it that in the ordering of God he would not be forced to leave them so quickly, were it not they could stand in spite of the shortness of the service they had. It was ordered that they should be left, so as to be a model to us of quick learning. But if there are those who are slow learners, God is patient with them, and waits on them. I do not say they were slow at Ephesus, for I suppose the long time with them was that there should be a full result of the apostle's labours there

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in connection with the assembly. But patience is a great thing, "in meekness instructing ...".

H.E.S. Does the way in which the apostle addressed them here show he had in mind what was mutual? He does not address them as an apostle but links up Silvanus and Timotheus with himself and speaks about their having become "our imitators".

J.T. I think so. Paul and two brothers with him would furnish a model as to how brethren should be together. You would like to have seen how Paul and Barnabas got on together that year at Antioch. We are told in chapter 14 that "they entered together into the synagogue of the Jews, and so spake that a great multitude ... believed". And in chapter 3, "Peter and John went up together into the temple at the hour of prayer, which is the ninth hour". You would like to see that sight; it was beautiful to heaven. Peter could say, "Look on us" -- there was something there. So, as remarked as to Paul, Silvanus and Timotheus, you would like to see them together; two of them were in the prison together, and Timotheus was of a like spirit. I suppose it is a three-fold cord presented in ministry: authority would be with Paul, the two brothers would represent the brotherly side: and the apostle was brotherly too.

R.B. It is helpful in this respect to see how Paul went up to Jerusalem and spent a fortnight with Peter.

J.T. He went up and spent fifteen days with him, that would be a learning time for Paul. But it would have been delightful to have seen Peter and Paul together during those fifteen days. These are beautiful touches in the Acts and elsewhere, so that younger ones amongst us might take notice of elder brethren and the love between them, and how they get on together. God would promote love amongst the elder brethren who minister, so that they may

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unitedly set forth what is of God, for the younger to take example from.

T.R. Whilst the apostle speaks of himself as a nurse and as a father, in between the two he puts in the moral feature -- "Ye are witnesses, and God, how piously and righteously and blamelessly we have conducted ourselves with you that believe", chapter 2: 10. There are not only the affections that are so helpful and blessed, but he was not lacking in the moral features.

J.T. Very beautiful; so that they had an excellent example set before them in all these features, and doubtless that largely accounts for their rapid growth.

Then there is another thing that should be noted after that. He says, "Ye should walk worthy of God, who calls you to his own kingdom and glory. And for this cause we also give thanks to God unceasingly that, having received the word of the report of God by us, ye accepted, not men's word, but, even as it is truly, God's word, which also works in you who believe", verses 12, 13. He is leading them on to the level of the word of God; as he calls it, "the word of the report of God". It was presented on the principle of report through him, but they were able to see that it was more than his word, it was the word of God, and that it worked effectually; that is, we proceed to get beyond examples in men, and the word of God itself works in us in regard of God, and then we become enlarged. The local side is seen in the beginning of chapter 1, but now we see how they are widened out to think of assemblies, by the word of God being rightly received; they thought of saints far away from them, and became "imitators of the assemblies of God which are in Judea in Christ Jesus". That is another thing that I believe brethren ought to notice; we are in danger of being either too general or too local. So as soon as we think of the assemblies in Judaea, we show that we are thinking

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of what is universal -- what is general, and especially of brethren who have been longer on the road, assemblies that are older than we. For after all, the older assemblies and the older brethren have an advantage, and if we listen to the word of God we shall be taught to this effect. Even Paul pays respect to certain persons who were in Christ before him.

F.I. So the local setting was brought into accord with the universal aspect.

J.T. I think it is important that brethren should extend further afield in their prayers than they do; there is very little universal prayer.

J.S. In Exodus 15 they came to Elim where there were twelve wells of water, but in chapter 24, we have the twelve pillars; it points to the whole divine system.

J.T. That is right. The twelve wells of water and seventy palm trees are a provision for us; but in chapter 24 it is a question of the whole system, as you say. God does not bring that in until the people commit themselves to the covenant. When they said, "All the words that Jehovah has said will we do". Moses immediately builds twelve pillars, and builds an altar and offers sacrifices; it is a question of the whole divine thought. As soon as we commit ourselves to God in the covenant, God's interests come into evidence; the covenant implies the love of God shed abroad in our hearts. We think of the holdings of God on earth today, and are in sympathy with Him that there are so many gatherings into which the Lord can come: that is, I think, how the assemblies in Judaea come into view. If we are young we become imitators of those who have been longer on the way.

H.W.S. When he speaks of their being taught of God to love one another, he adds, "indeed ye do it toward all the brethren which are in all Macedonia".

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There is love extending there, and then it goes out universally.

A.E.L. What would the "word of the Lord" be in chapter 1, verse 8?

J.T. You call attention to that as over against the "word of God?" I think it would be the kingdom, also the militant side, but it is the gospel. In Acts 18 it is the word of God and chapter 19 is the word of the Lord, this latter involving what is militant.

R.B. Will you say another word as to what you mean by what is militant?

J.T. Well, the title "Lord" brings that thought in. In the gospel, the word of the Lord would imply that He is in authority in heaven to be submitted to, but then He also protects those who submit to Him. Acts 9 brings out the position of the Lord. You get the expression "Lord", according to the Authorised Version, about fifteen times in that chapter; it is to bring out what is implied in the Lord. Paul breathed out "threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord". He did not reckon he had the Lord to deal with, he was only thinking of the disciples, defenceless persons, but he had to contend with one who had all power. Aside from this power, the gospel could not be effective. We must have protection down here. He protects us, as in conflict, for if we confess the Lord Jesus that places us in a militant position at once; it brings us to Numbers, where every one of the age of twenty had to take up a military position. We are defended by the Lord, but we also in turn take up the defence of the truth here.

Rem. It was "the Lord working with them", Mark 16:20.

J.T. Exactly, so that as we walk in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit we are multiplied, Acts 9:31. But the word of God brings

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in what God is in a moral sense, and opens up what He has here on earth. There is one God and it is one work. The assemblies are all co-ordinated; an assembly in Judaea is normally as interesting to God as the assembly at Thessalonica: the saints begin to see that, we love God and as loving God we are sympathetic with God. So you look afield, and especially where there had been national antipathy perhaps. They looked to Judaea for models here; it was Gentiles looking to Judaea for models. I think God has greatly helped the brethren during the past few years as to what is universal. It maintains a balance and saves us from metropolitan and national feeling, so that whilst we would recognize our "own countrymen", 1 Thessalonians 2:14, morally we are outside of all that. Thus we are in power, and able to think of saints in far-away lands, and even to make models of them. It is to be noted that "your own countrymen", whether Jews or Gentiles, were persecutors of the saints.

A.E.L. Would imitating the assemblies bring on persecution? for they both suffered persecution.

J.T. Yes; normally the assemblies reflect what is heavenly, and this will be persecuted in the world. "ye ... have become imitators of the assemblies of God which are in Judaea in Christ Jesus" -- they were assemblies of God; and they had the status of "in Christ Jesus".

Rem. A new order of man that was delightful to God.

J.T. That would be there, "In Christ Jesus" (the anointed Man in heaven) is an official thought; it is the status the assemblies in Judaea had. The Thessalonians were not on quite the same level -- they were "The assembly of Thessalonians in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ". The allusion is to their lovableness to God and their position as protected by the kingdom.

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Rem. "The assemblies of God" would suggest there was something there that God could own.

J.T. Exactly. That is the full position of the assembly here on earth, as far as I see -- "assemblies of God ... in Christ Jesus". What a great thing to see that God has companies of His people who can be so regarded. How dignified they are! how worthy of our consideration, and emulation, too! So the result is that if one went from Thessalonica to Judaea, he would find the same sympathies and affection. The assemblies are co-ordinated in that way. Thus we are perfectly at home, wherever we go, in such assemblies.

F.I. It does not say that of Galatia.

J.T. They were not equal to the dignity. They are just "assemblies of Galatia".

W.C.G. To every one is given grace to contribute to the end to which you have been referring. Some may have special endowments, but the grace given to each is spoken of first, Ephesians 4:7, 8.

W.W. Would this be enhanced in connection with the saints as we move in divine love in our local companies, and would that give us power to look out universally and to bring in what is operating there into our local companies?

J.T. It would. Think of the number of the divine holdings and the dignity of them! -- the assemblies of God in Christ Jesus -- in different countries of the world. We sit down to the Lord's supper and a number of letters of commendation are read, some from New Zealand, some from Australia, the West Indies, and so on. How delightful it is, as representing this great universal principle of the divine holdings on earth, assemblies of God in Christ Jesus -- what dignity attaches to them! In partaking of the Lord's supper we begin in a local way, for these announcements have respect to the locality; but the very reading of the names and localities from

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which they come suggests the universality of the assembly, that there is only one assembly really.

Ques. In connection with the assembly of God, you referred earlier to the two features, God's husbandry and God's building -- what are they?

J.T. Well, God's husbandry is an agricultural idea, it refers to the sowing. In gospel testimony the thought of the husbandry is in view, that is the crop from the seed sown -- Paul planted, Apollos watered -- the seed is sown and there is the fruit of it. That is only one side of the position; the other side is a building. Sometimes you get gatherings that are called evangelical, they are apt to think only of the husbandry: but the husbandry will pass away, the building will stand, the building is therefore the most important. So we are told to "Put thy field in order, and afterwards build thy house", Proverbs 24:27. It is really the working out of love, but according to a plan which the wise architect sets out. We must not separate these two thoughts. Wherever Paul went he had the two thoughts in view.

Ques. What about the temple? -- "Ye are the temple of God".

J.T. That goes with the building, it is characteristic in 1 Corinthians 3, it is the place where the light of God is. But the idea of God's building is a great suggestion -- what God is building. "Let every man take heed how he buildeth", because building is to go on.

Ques. Building would be God bringing in His own world; what is built is in view of the future.

J.T. Just so, building can only be by love. There is no other building that God will accept.

J.S. It is important that in preaching the gospel, the gift of the Holy Spirit should be made prominent, it links on with the building. Peter says, "Repent, and be baptized ... in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of sins, and ye will receive the gift of

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the Holy Spirit". They were baptized and then they were added.

J.T. Yes, the three thousand did not go beyond the husbandry up to verse 41 of Acts 2, that is, it is a question now of what will display itself in them, what will come out in them. Then the Holy Spirit immediately proceeds to describe what marked them, they "persevered in the teaching and fellowship of the apostles, in breaking of bread and prayers", and they were all together; that shows, I think, that there was building. It does not say "together in one place" -- that is not the point. At the beginning of the chapter they were together in one place, but at the end they were together characteristically, showing there was building, and the Lord adds to that.

Ques. Do you get the same thought in, God "will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth"? 1 Timothy 2:4. It would be the whole truth including the truth of the assembly.

J.T. Just so. Coming to the living stone is in view of building, but it implies rejection here.

Rem. You grow up to salvation first.

J.T. Just so, and then you come as living stones to Christ. A living stone is a person who loves: a man is alive if he loves, and, if he loves, he thinks of others. He also thinks of Christ as outside this world; He is, although rejected by men, Head of the corner of God's building.

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THE ASSEMBLY'S SERVICE GODWARD AND IN GOVERNMENT

Acts 13:1 - 4; Matthew 18:15 - 20

J.T. The Lord has been helping His people as to His own Person, and I think would direct their attention in that relation to the assembly also, for we need instruction in regard of the assembly as we do in regard of the Lord's Person. I thought that we might look at the assembly in its function Godward, and correspondingly as that which is the residence of grace -- out of which the ministry towards men goes; and then, as in Matthew, what it is as a bulwark against evil, how it is constituted to meet evil as it has to deal with it. It has to deal with it only as it comes within itself; it has nothing to do with the evil that is in the world as such. As the apostle says, "For what have I to do with judging those outside also? ye, do not ye judge them that are within?" It is a question of what is within, and Matthew shows how it is constituted to administer the government of God against evil as coming within its own domain. Those two sides ought to furnish an instructive line of enquiry for us. We cannot rightly understand what the assembly is as the residence of grace here towards men, out of which servants go to announce the grace of God, nor can we understand Matthew's presentation of the assembly, aside from understanding what it is Godward. This is seen in the early verses of Acts 13. It is the first mention formally we have in the Acts of the assembly's service Godward.

Ques. Is that in verse 2, "as they ministered to the Lord, and fasted"?

J.T. Yes. As thus serving, the Holy Spirit spoke to them to separate Barnabas and Saul, as if He would respect what they were engaged with. The wine that makes glad the heart of God makes glad

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the heart of man, and the oil that honours God honours man too.

W.P. Is there any special significance in the names in the passage, that they were in the assembly that was in Antioch?

J.T. There is; there were five. They are mentioned in this order; and it is stated after a considerable account of what had occurred in Antioch, indicating that they were, to some extent, the outcome of what had preceded. We are told in chapter 11 that Barnabas and Saul had gathered together in the assembly and taught a large crowd for a year. Then we are told that the disciples were called christians there for the first time, as if to honour the result of the ministry. Then we are told prophetically that there would be a famine, and certain there that were well off contributed for the poor saints at Jerusalem, and their bounty was sent by the hands of Barnabas and Saul. Then we are told that persecution broke out at Jerusalem against the assembly. Herod leading in the attack, and after Peter's release from prison, that Herod was consumed of worms. And Barnabas and Saul returned to Antioch and took John Mark with them. And then certain men of spiritual ability and quality in the assembly at Antioch are mentioned. These names are given, as if the assembly is accredited with them. They are called prophets and teachers, but they are not mentioned as engaged in prophesying and teaching, but in ministering to the Lord, which is a higher thing and something that will go on eternally. The exercise of gift will cease, but ministering to the Lord will not cease, and that is what is noted here.

F.W.W. This was characteristic of them, not merely as convened?

J.T. The Spirit stresses they were doing it, and you will notice, as they were ministering to the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit spoke, as if to pay respect

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to what they were doing. Heaven has great delight in this; it is really what will go on eternally, but it begins here, and unless we understand it, we may go on in our service and God may bless us, but we shall be at a great loss in it.

F.W.W. I was enjoying your thought as to what we will do eternally; that will be characteristic of the assembly.

J.T. If you say the brethren in this town minister to the Lord and fast you are speaking characteristically, but the Lord looks for the expression of it at particular times.

F.W.W. So you would carry the thought of the assembly in your heart at all times.

J.T. Exactly. It is the prime thought governing us here in this world; we are of the assembly. The assembly at Antioch, as answering to the mind of God, is contemplated here.

F.I. Do you infer that blessing manward depends upon what ascends up from the midst of the assembly to God?

J.T. That is the order. The assembly is really the residence of grace, the residence in this world of all that God is by the Spirit. That is a great thought to get into one's mind -- what the institution is that God has here. In the types you have the cities of refuge. In Deuteronomy you have three in the land, and in Numbers you have six. In Joshua you have six, but the three would emphasize the spiritual side of the cities of refuge, that is to say, the highest expression of grace. There were three cities in the land, and that, I think, is what you get here. It is the levitical side, not in active service manward, but Levi as in Deuteronomy as inclusive of the priesthood. Levi as in Deuteronomy 33 is the priestly side of the tribe -- he presents whole burnt-offerings to God. Well, I think that is what is noted in

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Antioch, that the levitical service Godward is among the Gentiles; it is in a Gentile city. It had moved out; it was no longer limited to Jerusalem; and now God was going to display what was there in the gospel in sending out these two ministers "for the work to which I have called them". It is a question therefore of what the work that God appoints may be today.

Ques. Would you tell us what is involved in ministering to the Lord and fasting?

J.T. I believe we have to learn everything from the Lord Himself. Luke narrates what is before us as well as the gospel, and in the gospel he gives us examples of the Lord in prayer and praise. Thus we may learn from the Lord how to minister to God. He is said to be praying in a certain place, and a disciple says to Him, "Teach us to pray". We have to learn from the Lord how to pray. Then He is seen praising God too. He rejoiced in spirit and said, "I praise thee, Father, Lord of the heaven and of the earth, that thou hast hid these things from wise and prudent, and hast revealed them to babes". Those two instances indicate what service Godward is. In the instance in which the Lord is seen praising, it is said He rejoiced in spirit. It is not mere formal words in hymns or even in giving of thanks, words that others may use, but the outgoing of what is in our spirits. He rejoiced in spirit. Mary said, "My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit has rejoiced in God my Saviour", Luke 1:46, 47. It is what is inward. You call upon all that is within you to praise God. We have therefore to examine ourselves as to what is within us when we come together in assembly, whether we can call upon all that is there to praise God. If we have mixed or fleshly feelings, we cannot rightly call upon them to praise God. There is thus always the need of prayer and fasting, it is the basis really; fasting is the denial of fleshly or

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even natural propensities, and prayer brings in what is according to God in the soul.

G.C.S. Would it shut out what is national too? There seems to have been a mixed company here.

J.T. That is good. You mean there was a Levite by birth, that is Barnabas; and a coloured man apparently. Then we have the Cyrenian, a tropical man; then an aristocrat, Manaen, foster-brother of Herod, and then we have Saul who was a Pharisee of the Pharisees. It was a remarkable composition which required the disallowance not only of national feelings but social feelings.

W.P. Is the idea that the persons named would be an influence in the assembly which was in Antioch?

J.T. The assembly there is accredited with them. The assembly is accredited with what is in it. In the book of Joshua, Judah is the first tribe to get its inheritance, and in obtaining its inheritance, Caleb comes into evidence. Judah came to Joshua at Gilgal and Caleb is the spokesman, and he reminds Joshua what Moses the man of God had said to Joshua and to him forty-five years before. They were distinguished together then by Moses the man of God, and he goes on to say that God had kept him alive all those years. Well, that is a great matter. One may say, I have lived these many years in this town, but then your neighbour may have lived the same length of time and he is not converted. He has lived on the principle of the world. How have you lived? Caleb said God had kept him alive. Others died under the government of God, but God kept him alive. That is to say, he was dependent upon God. He gave thanks for his food every day, and read the word of God every day, so to speak; he lived by God; he had active relations with God every day. Thus he can say, I am as vigorous now at eighty-five as I was then, as able to go out to war as I was then; and he claims the territory which the man of God said

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should be his; he valued his inheritance. And Joshua gave him the inheritance and blessed him. That is how the matter stood in Judah. The tribe is enriched as possessing such a man as Caleb. And that is the idea here. The assembly is accredited with what is in it. An assembly may be discredited, too, by what is in it. If there is a low state in some, the balance sheet does not show so well, because God does keep balances, both in regard of individuals and assemblies. We must look out for the debits as well as the credits. We get credits here in these five remarkable men, they were ministering to the Lord and fasting.

G.C.S. Would their worth be that they were prophets and teachers and not their social position?

J.T. What they were spiritually. If I ask you about forty-five years ago, what can you say? What were your relations with God then, and what are they now? Caleb, as we remarked, had been kept alive by God; he had maintained his relations with God. These men at Antioch are in spiritual vigour, denying the flesh. They have gone through the epistle to the Romans, so to speak; and of course they were valuable as gifts.

L.D.M. Bethany is mentioned in John in relation to certain persons.

J.T. That corresponds. Those three persons accredited the town in a certain sense.

L.D.M. Does it mean that what is heavenly has taken concrete form in that place?

J.T. They stand out as characterizing the assembly that was there, as Caleb did in relation to his tribe. They are presented on the highest level. You can understand that they would have a sense of obligation mutually; and there would be freedom from rivalry, which would be a great moral triumph in five gifted men in one assembly. With several gifted men in a gathering there is apt to be a bit of rivalry, and it needs great grace to minister to the Lord under

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those conditions; but fasting means the renunciation of all that marks the flesh.

L.D.M. The Holy Spirit spoke. What have you to say about that?

J.T. That paid tribute to what was there. If you take a meeting that is in a low state, you would hardly expect the Holy Spirit to nominate evangelists there. He would have to speak otherwise and have to rebuke what is in the place, instead of taking it into His confidence. It is God honouring the saints at Antioch in bringing them into His general operations.

F.I. That is, the local spiritual condition enabled Him to act thus.

E.W.P. Would the ministering to the Lord and fasting secure the Lord's place of pre-eminence amongst them?

J.T. It does. If I turn to the Lord in the assembly -- how great and glorious He is! Saul is mentioned last here. I suppose Luke, the writer, understood that he would take his place. He was the last mentioned, but really morally the greatest of them. Suppose you give an address; the Lord helps you and when you have finished you turn to Him and you see how great and glorious He is and how small you are, for after all, what you did was His doing. This keeps us lowly. Persons who carry on their gift without ministering in the assembly are sure to go astray. You can understand Paul and Barnabas coming back to Antioch and staying "no little time with the disciples", Acts 14:28. Their report to the saints at Antioch was of "all that God had done with them". They would take their places in the assembly. I believe the Lord is aiming now to bring the brethren round to what the assembly is, and how He employs it in His work: "The work to which I have called them"; whatever that may be.

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G.C.S. It would keep the assembly in sympathetic feeling as to the ministry.

J.T. It would, and as to the need that may be around us. The need is surely very great, and the Holy Spirit has first-hand knowledge about that. I think one feature of the presence of the Spirit here is to impress us with the fact that God has first-hand knowledge, because the presence of the Holy Spirit here is God here, but God here in such lowly circumstances. It is no less than that, but He has firsthand knowledge of the need, and He is making the appointments. He will not go to human organizations; He looks for something like this, saints ministering to the Lord. There He will make His appointments.

P.A.R. Are these men serving as priests?

J.T. That is what I understand. I think it is the levitical position, but in the sense of Deuteronomy -- indeed Joshua, too; the levitical position, but the priestly side of it.

L.D.M. And there is subjection to the Spirit's word. There is no sense of jealousy in the appointments.

J.T. That is so very beautiful. As already said, the Holy Spirit is honouring them in calling them into this great movement. They are to separate the two men, but He sends them forth. The assembly does not send out missionaries; that is a false thought. I suppose all the so-called churches send out missionaries, but it is not scriptural. The Holy Spirit sends them out, but He calls upon those in the assembly to separate them, which they do; and, in laying their hands on them, they let them go. This implies that they did not want to lose them. One may say, I am glad so-and-so is gone, there will be more room for me; but that is not the idea here. Personally they did not wish them to go, but they "let them go". That is, they were in accord with

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the desire of the Spirit of God; that was their only thought.

F.I. If one moves out in any way from his local company in service and there is no blessing, should not that be an exercise in the local company? It is not that the local company sends you out, but that is where you are formed, and if there is no blessing as the result of your ministry that should be an exercise to all.

J.T. It should indeed. What you find with Barnabas and Saul in chapter 15 is a readiness to report to the assembly what God had wrought by them among the nations. It is a question of what God does by you.

Ques. What is the thought of committal?

J.T. It is the laying on of hands. The saints commit themselves to those whom God uses. Whatever the work is that is going on, whatever little there is, those engaged in it should have the fellowship of the brethren in their local meeting. I think a brother ought to move that way, with the fellowship and the prayers of the brethren where he resides; they are letting him go. You will notice it is recorded in chapter 14: "And thence they sailed away to Antioch, whence they had been committed to the grace of God for the work which they had fulfilled", verse 26. They did something; they did what they were sent to do. I believe if that were more in mind we should get more results. You have a definite end in view and you want to reach it. The position is very fine here, the assembly being largely the product of the ministry of these two brothers. They laboured in the assembly. It is an important matter to take account of where the instruction is given, that is, it is given in the assembly: "For a whole year they were gathered together in the assembly and taught a large crowd". That is, the teaching went on where it could be applied immediately. It is not theoretical

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teaching. The verse I refer to everyone should study, Acts 11:26. New Translation.

P.A.R. What do you mean by the teaching being applied?

J.T. It is like a medical student going to the infirmary after the university to apply the instruction he has received. That is the idea here. The teaching was not the university, so to speak, it was where it could be applied. They were together in the assembly and the teaching would be applied at once. If Paul were to speak about the body the truth could be applied at once. It is a question of how you regard your brother next to you, whether you can hold yourself in relation to him on the principle of the body which is an organism.

P.A.R. That would make it living.

J.T. It makes it very practical. In the setting up of the tabernacle in Exodus it was functioning, that is not like a house built and people living in it afterwards, but every portion functioning as it is put up. That is the idea. Teaching in the assembly is that you apply the truth as you get it; it becomes yourself, and then it is practical.

E.W.P. You are formed by it.

F.I. Do you mean the one who presents it is formed by it?

J.T. He is formed by it, and those who hear are formed by it, too; they can apply it at once. They were "a large crowd" in Antioch, and they had not had such teaching. You can understand what questions there would be in the meetings, and as the questions came up. Paul or Barnabas would explain how the truth operated. It is not merely theory, but the thing operates, it becomes practical at once because the underlying principle in the things of God is love, and love of itself builds up; it is constructive. There is present a secret constructive principle as the ministry proceeds.

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F.I. So that for the truth to be taken in you must be in the appreciation of the assembly setting.

J.T. Paul says at Corinth, "I have laid the foundation", 1 Corinthians 3:10. He gives the idea of what is fundamental, and every one intelligently working later would understand how his part must fit in there.

Ques. So that the result of the teaching at Antioch came out in chapter 13?

J.T. That is the idea. The Spirit of God dwells upon it, speaking of the disciples as called christians; they "were first called Christians in Antioch". The original word for "called" indicates that the name christians was applied to the disciples with care as conveying that they were truly according to their profession; it is as if God would have it that way. It is a distinctive feature, as if to honour the teaching and what was at Antioch. And then you have Barnabas and Saul going up to Jerusalem with money from Antioch to help the poor there; and then the Spirit shows us what was at Antioch in the way of gift and assembly formation -- a result reached.

L.D.M. A very interesting and practical result of the teaching found expression in the contribution for the poor, showing the working of love.

J.T. That is why it is brought in at that particular point, to show that active love was there. What God gets in the assembly is the most blessed side; and then the ministry manward in grace, for the assembly is to be the residence of grace. That is the idea in the cities of refuge.

But then there is the other side, that this assembly, being set up, Satan will not let it alone, but will attack it. That is one standpoint in Matthew, which gospel also shows how the attacks are to be met. Matthew is the only one that mentions the assembly by name. It is mentioned three times in this gospel, and each time it is in relation to evil: "hades' gates shall not prevail against it"; and then, "tell it [the

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refusal of a trespassing brother to hear] to the assembly"; and then, "Whatsoever ye shall bind on the earth". Evil is contemplated in each of these statements -- the way the enemy attacks the assembly. So when the enemy attacks, it is wise to consult Matthew. It is important to consider the working of evil in all its stages, for there are many things that can be settled out of court, so to speak. The priests were the custodians of the law, and it is for the saints to see that the law is carried out, that the initial directions are followed as something wrong happens. This passage tells the offended person what to do.

Ques. Would we thus learn to detect the evil and deal with it quickly?

J.T. Much is lost by delay. When a matter is made clear delay is always damaging. If it is not clear, of course, we wait. But the word here is, "Separate me now ..." They did it at once; and so, if evil comes up, it is wise to proceed at once, because delay will only confirm the evil and give greater opportunity to the enemy.

W.P. Would the conditions as seen in Acts 13 preserve the balance in connection with the movements in Matthew?

J.T. Quite so. The one is the inner side, Godward, but Matthew is the outer, in regard of government, showing how evil is dealt with in the assembly.

F.I. Is it government on the basis of grace?

J.T. Surely; the chapter is full of grace: not seven times is a brother to be forgiven, but seventy and seven times. There is grace, and dignity too, for the subject begins in chapter 16 where the assembly is introduced; and the Lord proceeds to take Peter and James and John up to the mount, that they might see things as they are in heaven, as it were; and what they see is in regard of government, for the Lord's face shone as the sun. But they come down, and

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then you have the idea of sonship. It is a question of personality really; the three disciples were to understand by what they saw above that they were to be in dignity down here. It is the kingdom of the heavens, but carried out assembly-wise. It is the great design of God for the present time. The administration of the mind of heaven is carried out here in the assembly -- an assembly composed of persons who have heavenly dignity. It involves Ephesians. Those forming the assembly belong to heaven; and they are sons. The sons are free; they are not under tribute. If I am under tribute to any person who offends another, if I am under obligation to him, that hinders my giving a judgment. I must be free. All this enters into Matthew chapters 16 to 18.

F.W.W. So, while the thing may be personal to begin with, it is taken up as it affects the assembly. Are the instructions in chapter 18 for the assembly today?

J.T. The binding and the loosing are assembly prerogatives, Matthew 18:18. I think you will see the idea of being free is important. If we are to have part in assembly decisions, we must be free from obligation to any of the parties. If I owe them anything, I am scarcely qualified, because preferences are apt to come in. They do come in and it is a great matter for those who compose the assembly to be in the light and acceptance of sonship, so that one is under special obligation to no one.

L.D.M. "Ye are sons of Jehovah your God", Deuteronomy 14:1.

J.T. Yes. Heaven, while most discriminating, is also impartial. The Father makes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and so, we are to be without partiality in the administration of government in the assembly.

E.W.P. That would be so if the Lord has His place.

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J.T. The next thing after the subject of sonship is the question as to who is greatest in the kingdom of the heavens. Anyone seeking to be greatest is disqualified from acting in the assembly. The Lord called a little child to Him and set him as a model for the disciples.

E.W.P. You mean that is the right kind of assembly material?

J.T. Yes. Smallness in one's own estimation is stressed. The truly little ones are all very interesting to heaven: "their angels in the heavens continually behold the face of my Father who is in the heavens". Heaven is very concerned about them, and this must be reflected in the assembly. Woe to him who causes them to stumble.

F.I. So if you move according to chapter 18 you do it as having before you that evil should not come into the assembly. Even if it is a personal matter or a brother is offended, you would move as having the assembly before you and not yourself.

J.T. Yes. In Deuteronomy 19 you have the three cities of refuge, meaning the residence of grace, and we make a way for the man slayer. Every advantage is given to him, but then, if he has slain a man in hatred the city of refuge gives him up to the avenger of blood. Then following on that, you have, "Thou shalt not remove thy neighbour's landmark"; the local assembly's position is not to be interfered with. An offending brother is left with his local company. And then the next thing is that no one witness is to arise against the brother; you must have two or three. And so a decision thus based on adequate witness is right. If a trespass takes place and the aggrieved person brings it to the brethren they must see to it. We might advise him to get to the Lord -- that is his side, but we are bound to deal with the matter. The assembly represents the Lord and she must execute righteous government.

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F.W.W. Deuteronomy 19 provides for that which is done accidentally. We must search out the matter even if it is said to happen accidentally.

J.T. The parties are said to stand before Jehovah and before the priests and the judges; so that we are bound to look into the matter, and, in doing so, to insist on each party, so to speak, keeping the law. That is, the aggrieved party's law is in these verses in Matthew 18. The trespasser has to respect chapter 5, that is, if he comes with his gift to the altar and remembers, as there, that his brother has aught against him, he must first be reconciled to his brother. I believe the assembly would be saved a great deal if those two laws were enforced. The priests are to see to the enforcement of the laws, and if those two laws are enforced, I believe a great deal could be settled out of court.

F.W.W. I am sure of that, and I think we would do it more readily if we had the good of the whole company in view. One cannot overlook these things and expect the assembly to prosper.

J.T. That is what I was thinking. God has great regard for His laws or principles. The Lord magnified the law and made it honourable. God has great regard for His commandments, and He would love to see them made honourable, that there is power in the assembly to insist on the person who is aggrieved going to the person who has trespassed against him, also that one against whom another has a complaint should seek to be reconciled before offering his gift.

Ques. In order to gain the brother?

J.T. That is the object in view.

F.W.W. Have you any thought as to the judge and the priest? Why are there the two? The judge would have to do with the law.

J.T. I was referring to Deuteronomy 19:17: "Then both the men between whom the controversy is shall stand before Jehovah, before the priests and

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the judges that shall be in those days; and the judges shall make thorough enquiry". The priests would refer to spiritual state, and the judges to persons capable of going into the matter. They are the same persons of course, only I am challenged whether I am a priest, a spiritual person, before I am eligible to be a judge. A judge is a person with judicial ability.

Ques. Do you think we should look at Acts 13 and Matthew 18 together?

J.T. I do. Acts 13 is the inner side; it is the priestly side; answering to this, you have ability to deal with administrative matters, matters of law. "For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and at his mouth they seek the law", Malachi 2:7. Then a judge is a person who can listen to testimony, and here you have two or three -- adequate testimony. I believe the latter is one of the most important features of our position.

L.D.M. All this would flow from the apprehension of sonship.

J.T. Matthew 16 and 17 underlie what we are speaking of.

L.D.M. I wondered whether that is where we are weak. We do not feel the dignity of the position that is assailed.

F.I. Do you look at the verses read in chapter 18 as the law?

J.T. That is right, what the priests have to look after.

L.D.M. The brother trespassed against, acting thus, needs "grace upon grace".

F.W.W. What is said suggests a limited period for the procedure.

J.T. Yes, we should not let such things drag on. That is often a painful feature amongst us; and then in those conditions we thrust ourselves before the Lord as if we were acceptable, as if He must bear

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with anything. He does bear with a good deal, but certainly we ought to enquire whether we force the Lord to accept certain things that we know He resents. I am speaking, of course, of known cases; there is sometimes the working of evil of which we are conscious but have no tangible evidence; as to such a case we must wait on the Lord.

E.W.P. Is there danger in leaving things to become cumulative?

J.T. Yes, for they become an incubus on the meeting. The assembly is the greatest court, so to speak, and God resents its being disregarded. It is His own institution. "Tell it to the assembly", the Lord says; the two or three witnesses have the assembly in mind. You have persons coming before the judges taking two or three witnesses. They have to bear witness somewhere, and the witness is to be borne in the assembly.

Ques. How do you tell it to the assembly?

J.T. Acts 15 helps us as to telling the thing. "The apostles and the elders were gathered together to see about this matter", it says, and then the matter is laid before them. That is the principle. I should say it is at the "care meeting". The principle is that you lay the matter before the elders, and in due course it is brought before the assembly. The care meeting is not the assembly, of course, but it leads to it. The care meeting has no administrative authority.

Ques. Would you say a word as to binding and loosing? What goes on today?

J.T. Primarily it is dispensational; it would have allusion to the sin of Christ's crucifixion being bound on Israel. The binding comes first here. In John, as we have often remarked, remission comes before the retention of sins. John is rather our position now, that our attitude is grace. It is really more like the cities of refuge. But here, the binding comes first because it belongs to the dispensation, the final

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prerogative lying with the assembly. That is how the matter stands as far as it relates to the Jew. The thing is bound on him and he has to deal with God about it now. The binding and loosing here apply also to an individual, of course.

Ques. Would you say a word as to the expression, "If also he will not listen to the assembly?" Would you think that after the assembly meeting and the person in question has been told, you would expect him to listen?

J.T. That is the order. The assembly has an authoritative voice, its judgment is final, and any one who refuses it is to be regarded as a heathen man and a publican. He is not fit for fellowship.

Rem. And that is ratified in heaven.

J.T. Which is very solemn. It shows that God has furnished us with the means of dealing with evil as heaven does it, and heaven is behind us in what we do.

Rem. It has the full authority of heaven.

J.T. "Bound in heaven" is a very strong word. We do not half believe in these statements. God would have us believe in them, and in acting on them we magnify the law, we magnify the assembly, and we magnify heaven.

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A GREAT PRIEST OVER THE HOUSE OF GOD

Hebrews 10:21 - 22; Genesis 24:2 - 4; Genesis 43:16, 17, 23, 24; Exodus 4:14 - 16

These scriptures speak of the place the Lord Jesus has in the house of God, summed up in the passage in the Hebrews which speaks of Him as "a great priest over the house of God". I wish to dwell on these passages with the thought in view that we, as the Lord may help us, may be encouraged to draw near to God. "God is in heaven", we are told, "and thou upon earth", Ecclesiastes 5:2, but that is not because He wishes to put a distance between Himself and us. He has found a means of drawing near to us, and correspondingly of our drawing near to Him, as we see in Jacob, in connection with whom we, have the house of God introduced. We see in the ladder the divine thought of communication: the idea of the ladder would be ridiculous in the eyes of the mere astronomer, but it is perfectly intelligible to faith. Faith understands where the astronomer cannot understand. So God would indicate to us that He wishes us near to Him; not simply as having been brought near from His own side, but that we should draw near from our side, that we should think it worth while to do so. He says, "I have borne you on eagles' wings and brought you to myself", Exodus 19:4; but then in the presence of that, He inaugurated a system at mount Sinai in relation to which His people were to draw near from their side, and to draw near not empty but full, for He says, "none shall appear before me empty", Exodus 34:20.

Before dwelling on the passage in Hebrews, I would indicate from the Old Testament scriptures how the principle of the house appears early; for, although the house of God was not formally introduced in relation to Abraham, the household of

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faith was seen in him; and before we can understand the house of God, we must understand the household of faith. The types are largely for young believers; they may seem difficult, but as soon as we recognize the Spirit, and consider what is said, the Lord gives us understanding and the types become wonderful; the things of God which seemed distant otherwise, are brought very near to the eye in the types; so that we peculiarly learn "in part" from the types, but we learn and know how to put the parts together, for that is one great feature of the initial history of the christian -- to know how to put things together.

The household of faith is wisely introduced in Scripture before the house of God; and indeed the father of believers is introduced even earlier, his name "Abram" signifying "high father"; that is to say, the suggestion is that his family should be brought up on principles morally greater than the principles of this world. And then later, he is called Abraham, the "father of a multitude", meaning that he is qualified to be that. So that the epistle to the Romans prepares the believer for the household of faith: it tells us that Abraham is the father of all believers. That is an initial thought, but an important one for the christian, that, believing in the Lord Jesus, he is brought into, and regarded by heaven as in, the household of faith; that is to say, he is where people look at things on that principle.

The astronomers do not, nor do any scientific men as such, look at things on the principle of faith, whereas all believers do; beginning even with the creation therefore they really know more, at least from the divine standpoint, than the scientific men. That ought to appeal to every one, especially to young ones. We are brought into a family that is governed by that principle; not simply having faith for one's righteousness and salvation, but faith in

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regard of everything. We are in a dispensation of faith. God carrying on His affairs thus in relation to His people; and so we have access into His secrets, whereas the cleverest minds in this world are outside them. I am not ignoring the Spirit, who has come in in relation to faith, the Spirit is given to those who have faith; so that we have the means, beloved, not indeed of searching the depths of the physical creation (it is to pass away), but "the depths of God", the depths of the Creator, which is a far greater thing!

So the first point in regard of these scriptures, is that in the household of faith -- in Abraham's house -- there is an overseer. He is first alluded to, as you will recall, by name: Eliezer of Damascus. Genesis 15:2. Abram does not refer to him thus to distinguish him, he is simply a son of his house, born in his house, meaning that he was a domestic; and Abram was distressed that such a one should be his heir. But in chapter 24 the viewpoint is different; we have no name given; it is the steward of Abraham's house, the eldest of his servants, the man that "ruled over all that he had". No name is given, because, although now we know who is over the house by the Scriptures, the way of God is to bring us to things before we name them. We have the New Testament scriptures now in which things are named for us, and we may use these names in a very inexperienced way, even the natural mind may take them up; but in the school of God, the principle is, that I learn the thing, I experience the thing, and then I name it.

In Genesis 24 the point is to stress for the young believer that there is such a thing as this kind of overseership in the household of faith, someone who rules over all that is there, over all that Abraham had as the great father. He is evidently not an austere kind of person, he does not rule with severity,

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but the believer comes to discover in due course, as he believes the testimony of the gospel, that in the household of faith, latitudinarianism and looseness and general independency of thought and action are foreign to this new family into which he is brought. He begins to see that there is a gentle, but nevertheless definite, rule in it, and also that it is for his good; that, as a matter of fact, the service of this ruler is to discover in the believer what is pleasing to Christ; that he is looking out for something that the Lord Jesus Christ died for, and is putting forth his rule in a gentle but yet definite way to bring that to light. He is over all the house -- all that Abraham has -- and he is concerned about what is dear to Christ. That is his particular business in chapter 24, and he carries out his service admirably and most successfully. If we give him place, he will discover in us, and give us to understand that there is in us something very pleasing to Christ; and it is a great day for the soul when the thought comes into it, that there is something there that is pleasing to the Lord.

So this steward of Abraham's house undertakes his ministry with the greatest care: he understands the difficulties of the way -- and who that has had to do with young believers, among whom we all have had our part, does not well know the difficulty of getting at what belongs to Christ in them, at what He cherishes? Now that is the ministry of this steward of Abraham's house in Genesis 24. You will observe that Abraham is very old here, whereas the person to be sought out was to be young; and the steward is old, too, but he has got universal sway in the household of faith; the older the better so long as he has his faculties, and this steward had his faculties and knew exactly the difficulties he had to contend with in his mission; but he overcomes them, not in a harsh way, but in a careful, calculating way and on the principle of dependence on God.

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What a fine thing it is to come in contact with this experienced element in the house, marked by dependence on God, and yet persistently seeking out that which Christ cherishes. The Lord has bought the field as we know, according to the parable, because of the treasure in it, and has also bought the pearl. He has bought the field in relation to the treasure, and His eye scans it to discover the treasure, so that He might have it free from all admixture and encumbrance.

Now that is the idea in this type of overseership, of one being over the household of faith; so that the servant is not occupied with himself -- as remarked, his name is not given -- the point is to carry out the wish of Abraham, to secure what Isaac needs; and he succeeds. The object of his service is young, a maiden, typical of the young believer, but the young believer viewed as the assembly in principle, what the Lord is seeking. So that this element is active constantly to secure what the heart of Christ is set upon in believers, and he does it; the type shows the end -- he finds Rebekah, so that we might be encouraged that the end will be reached. The story is well known but it is one that should be studied from this standpoint, as to the bearing of it on the young Christian; so that he sees the wisdom of this old, experienced authority, involving an example for him in dependence. He sees the wisdom of it in the way it has reached him, and the way it has secured him for Christ, to have part in the assembly; and what could be greater, beloved, than that we should have part in that upon which the Lord Jesus has set His heart, and for which He gave Himself?

The next feature of this rule, is in Joseph's house. It is a bit further on, as to the place it has in the history of the believer, but is of equal importance with the one I have just dealt with. It is the same kind of rule, but in relation to the securing of the

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brethren; the believer comes into the idea of the brethren, that is to say, the brethren of Christ. We need this rule if we are to reach that end. And so you find that as Benjamin comes down with the brethren, with Jacob's sons, and comes into the view of Joseph, we get the mention of this man or overseer of his house. Scripture is infinitely accurate, whether it be the New Testament or the Old, and it bears on us, every line of it was written for christians. God is working out such a wonderful scheme at the present time, such a wonderful result, that all the Scriptures were intended for us, and so we get the thought of one over the household of faith, this steward. Then we come on to the thought of one over the household of him who brings the brethren into right relations -- Joseph, who is Christ more directly as a type, than Abraham. Abraham was the great father; but Joseph is the brother; representing Christ as the One who has brethren. One who would have them, and who will not be satisfied until He has them all, for He needs them all. Every one of us is needed by the Lord to form His brethren -- the exact number; there are to be many, but the number, you may be certain, is determined: they are all necessary. We see the number in Jacob's family -- the idea runs through. And Joseph in his wisdom is set to have them, but to have them on his own terms.

There are many brethren who take up the terms with little idea of their moral import. You will all know how the evangelists give us a four-fold view of the brethren (I do not go into them now); it implies moral characteristics and family characteristics, and the Lord is bent on securing everyone bearing these characteristics, and for this there is this principle of a man over Joseph's house. You will understand, dear brethren, that I am not speaking of the steward of Abraham and the steward of Joseph as referring now to persons: I think I have intimated already that

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it is not a question of persons (although persons are involved) but of a certain element being found by believers, and, as found being helpful and essential to our coming into the assembly. The verses I read will indicate to you how interesting a man this was. His name is not given, any more than the name of the steward in chapter 24; it is the element of overseership that is in view. He comes into view immediately as Benjamin appears. Benjamin is like the overcomer; he is the brother who has not offended -- the others have. And as soon as he comes into the view of Joseph, this man over his house is mentioned; he is under Joseph's hand, and perfectly in keeping with the mind of Joseph, he knows exactly what is going on. Now if we are awake to this, dear brethren, it will have a great effect on us: there will be a certain vigilance, without any assumption, but a certain sure vigilance that knows what is transpiring, and all to the end that Joseph's mind should be carried out.

See how this servant agrees with the mind of Joseph; Joseph directs him to bring the men into his house. Mark, it is Joseph's house, not Abraham's; it is the house of a great personage, the Son of God in type, who would bring all of us into accord with Himself as His brethren; and this element is subservient to His thought, it is current and active all the time. For I may add, dear brethren, that, whilst these things work out concretely in one way or another in the Lord's people, they are effected in the power of the Spirit of God; without the presence of the Holy Spirit here in the house, they could not be. So Joseph directs this servant to bring them into the house, and they are concerned at being brought into the house. The believer begins to feel that after all, though he may be using the word "brethren" and belongs to them, it may be, he has not realised what it means; and that there has been conduct, and

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state, wholly out of keeping with it. So we can well understand their perturbation as they come within the door of the house. What is outside is very different to what is inside; and so they reasoned with him, as you will observe, at the door.

It says, "And they came near to the steward of Joseph's house, and they communed with him at the door of the house. And said. O sir, we came indeed down at the first time to buy food: And it came to pass, when we came to the inn, that we opened our sacks, and, behold, every man's money was in the mouth of his sack, our money in full weight: and we have brought it again in our hand. And other money have we brought down in our hands to buy food: we cannot tell who put our money in our sacks. And he said. Peace be to you, fear not", chapter 43: 19 - 23. You see what is in the minds of these men at the door of Joseph's house, they are thinking of money; they are thinking of the money they had and how it was put in their sacks, and how they brought more money down. But a place in Joseph's house, a place amongst the brethren of Christ, is not on that principle at all! We have to understand the ground on which things are in the house of sonship, of the brethren: it is not on the principle of money. These men were full of the idea of money; but this steward of Joseph's house said to them, "Peace be to you" -- he knew all about that. It refers, dear brethren, to the secret workings of the Spirit of God on the principle of oversight and authority, yet with no pretension attached to it; for the blessed Spirit is here in the most subservient way, in the subservience of love -- to secure the divine end; and He would banish for ever the thought of securing a place with money. As Peter says to Simon, "Thy money go with thee to destruction, because thou hast thought that the gift of God can be obtained by money.

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Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter", Acts 8:20.

I do not say of these men, that they intended to buy the brotherly place, they did not understand; but Joseph did understand, and that is what I want to press on you, that Christ is bent on securing your heart as one of His brethren, and there is this element working all the time to secure it. If you look back on your history, you will see how it has been working. So he said, "Fear not: your God, and the God of your father, has given you treasure in your sacks; your money came to me. And he brought Simeon out to them. And the man brought the men into Joseph's house, and gave water, and they washed their feet; and he gave their asses food. And they made ready the gift for Joseph's coming at noon; for they had heard that they should eat bread there". Now this is a lesson that I would commend to all; how beautifully and consolingly this man, this ruler over Joseph's house, spoke to these men, without mentioning his name, but at the same time giving them to know that he knew all about them, and he connects God with them and with their father. How he dignifies them! And that is what we need as we approach the door of Joseph's house and enter it, we need to understand how God is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Presently we shall understand that He is our God and our Father, and that we are the brethren of Christ.

Well now, I proceed to seek to show you how this principle of the Lord's place over the house of God is typified in Aaron. He represents the full thought illustrated in these three types, because "the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth", Malachi 2:7. We have now come into Exodus where things are to be regulated formally and divinely; that is to say, gathering up the

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instruction in Exodus fits us for the assembly, where we have our place. Everything is according to measure in Exodus, and as the parts of the tabernacle are set up, each part is functioning; that is to say, intelligence marks the believer as taken up in Exodus, and Aaron is representative of this intelligence, and what comes out is good speaking -- he can speak well. The history in Exodus shows that Aaron had a way of speaking that attracted people and turned them away from the world. As the people were about to return to Egypt yearning for the flesh pots there. Aaron spoke to them, and they turned towards the wilderness, Exodus 16:10. Such was the power of his voice, the power of his words. Who is it but Christ, beloved, now the Priest in heaven, as set out in Hebrews -- who but He controls by His word the hearts of the saints so that they turn away from the world and turn to the wilderness? Indeed I believe the effect of the epistle to the Hebrews is largely that, a question of the power of priesthood turning our hearts from the world to the wilderness where the tabernacle of God is. As it says, "We have such a one high priest who has sat down on the right hand of the throne of the greatness in the heavens; minister of the holy places and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord has pitched, and not man", Hebrews 8. Such a One as that! It is the greatness of the Priest, and we have Him! Well, that is the idea in Aaron: the Lord says to Moses, "Is not Aaron the Levite thy brother? I know that he can speak well. And also behold, he goeth out to meet thee", Exodus 4:14. How touching that is as applied to Christ! He is One who goes out to meet the brethren, takes a long journey to meet the brethren, and when He sees them He is glad in His heart -- that is the idea.

The service of Aaron throughout is to encourage the hearts of the saints. The end is seen in his rod,

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which denotes that of which I am speaking; a rod denotes authority, and this is the rod by which Moses was to approach the rock in Numbers 20. It is Christ in that way, the true Priest of God, as seen in Corinthians. The apostle did not come with a rod, he had a rod, but he did not bring the rod of authority, instead of that he sent Timotheus, as like himself, and in a priestly attitude, who would make known to them his ways as they were in Christ. Timothy would speak to them, he would not use the rod; what he would do would be to approach the brethren as a lowly brother and speak to them; as Jehovah said to Moses, "Speak ye unto the rock". It is the time of speaking, and the rock was to give water, and it did.

Having said all that about Aaron, there are only a few words to be said on the passage in Hebrews. What you will observe is that Christ is "a great priest over the house of God" as the New Translation reads, Hebrews 10:21. It is no longer only a principle or element, but a known Person set up over the house of God. The first mention of the house is in chapter 3, where Christ is said to be the Son over it. Moses was a ministering servant, faithful in the house: Christ is Son over it, but He is over it as having built it: such is the greatness of the house! It refers to what the Son has set up, and what He has set up He is over; He rules over it, but He rules over it as Son. And He rules over it as Priest, so that we might know He has full sympathy with us, that we might know there is nothing we can suffer from which He cannot meet. "Since therefore the children partake of blood and flesh, he also, in like manner, took part in the same, that through death he might annul him who has the might of death, that is the devil; and might set free all those who through fear of death through the whole of their life were subject to bondage ... Wherefore it

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behoved him in all things to be made like to his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things relating to God".

In chapter 4 it says we have a great High Priest -- not yet over the house, but we have Him and in the understanding that we have Him, we draw near to the throne of grace; but the house is not mentioned there. In chapter 10 it is mentioned, for God would bring us to the understanding of the place we have in it, and that it is ruled over by a great Priest; not only one great personally, but in a moral sense, that He is great enough to get down alongside the weakest of us, and encourage and support us as we draw near to God. So the word is, "Having therefore, brethren, boldness for entering into the holy of holies by the blood of Jesus, the new and living way which he has dedicated for us through the veil, that is, his flesh, and having a great priest over the house of God, let us approach with a true heart, in full assurance of faith, sprinkled as to our hearts from a wicked conscience, and washed as to our body with pure water", chapter 10: 19 - 22. That is what God is set for, and Hebrews sets out the furnishings for it, so that the weakest believer should draw near -- and why should we stay at a distance from God? Think of the service of such a One as this, a great Priest over the house! He is there to support us as we essay to draw near to God. It is as we move we get the support; many do not understand how to draw near to God because they do not take the initiative; in drawing near we get the support; He brings us into the very holiest of all. One is made conscious when first one enters, of his fitness for the place, that he is no stranger there, that he belongs to it, he is of the sanctified company, that "both he that sanctifies and those sanctified are all of one" -- that is the idea of the holiest; we are equal to the place because we are all of

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one with the Sanctifier; "for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren".

That is what I had in mind, dear brethren, and I trust that God will use the word so that we may draw near with more intelligence and energy.

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THE SON LEADING HIS OWN TO THE FATHER

John 11:41, 42; John 12:27 - 30; John 17:1, 6, 26

J.T. I thought we might consider these scriptures in connection with the thought in Hebrews which speaks of the Lord Jesus as the "Minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man", Hebrews 8:2 -- that we might learn by His example of speaking to the Father, and the instruction in this section of John's gospel, what the sanctuary is, and how He serves in it as Minister; also that we might see how valuable all this instruction is as having its bearing towards the Father, so that we might know what it is to have part with Christ, because that is what comes into this section, in relation to His service of feet-washing. Then, as having part with Him that we might see how He carries on His ministry in the sanctuary as indicated in these chapters, beginning with the 11th to the end of chapter 17. The priest of old in the type, as you all will remember, was to minister to the Lord in the Priest's office, his sons associated with him in the service; and both the high priest and the sons of Aaron are seen here in the antitype in these chapters. As we understand them we shall know better how to take part in the assembly, because that is really having part with Christ. Ministry in the assembly Godward is having part with Christ. I suggested the earlier scripture, because the Lord in speaking to His Father says, it was on account of those that "stood by", chapter 11: 42. Then in chapter 12, He expressly states that "Not on my account has this voice come, but on yours", (verse 30). Chapter 11 says, "On account of the crowd who stand around I have said it, that they

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may believe that thou hast sent me". In chapter 17. He speaks evidently in the hearing of His own.

Ques. Does all this indicate the intimate relations between Himself and the Father, so that we may learn in that way, how to approach the Father?

J.T. That is what I thought we might see; whilst He is Son and speaking as a divine Person, He is also Man, and intimates that we are to be with Him in this service. It is essential we should understand these chapters, if we are to have part in the assembly intelligently. The Lord had set out earlier that "God is a Spirit; and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth", chapter 4: 24. So we need to be instructed. It is set out here, how we should speak to the Father, and the place the Father should have as we are in assembly.

Ques. Does John limit the idea of the sanctuary to God, or does he carry it on to the Father?

J.T. Also to the Father. What I observe in moving about among the brethren, is an unnecessary mixture in our addressing divine Persons. The Lord Jesus is Head in the assembly, and a divine Person, and is entitled to honour even as the Father is; but He is pleased to take an inferior place in order to minister to the Father, and in that service He associates us with Himself. The various scriptures read, therefore, suggest to us that He is speaking more in the way of a model, that we might learn, first, to believe as to Himself, and then as to the Father. In the first scripture we read, "He lifted up his eyes on high" -- I think that expression "on high" is meant to suggest elevation in a moral sense, the power of vision directed thus.

Ques. Do you connect what is "on high" with the sanctuary? In Psalm 78 it says, "he built his sanctuary like the heights", verse 69.

J.T. Yes. We are to be withdrawn from the current level of so-called "divine service". The

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expression "divine service" is allotted to what is not really that, but something on the level of man and this world. I think the Lord would lift us in our vision outside and above that.

Ques. Would chapter 4 show us the distance from which the Lord would draw us, so that we might be near Him in the appreciation of the Father?

J.T. I think that chapter 4 is rather the power in us for elevation: the well springs up "into eternal life". John 4 agrees with the general thought of elevation in the gospel. The lifting up of the eyes on high, suggests the power that may be in us by the Spirit, to direct our vision upward.

Ques. Did you say that ministry in the assembly is having part with Him? If so, would you say another word as to what you mean?

J.T. That is what comes out in this section. Instead of the Lord's supper in John's gospel we have chapters 13 to 16, beginning with the idea of having part with Him. They were already sitting at table together, but He rises from supper, and girds Himself with a linen towel, and washes their feet. Peter objected, but the Lord said, "If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me" -- showing that what is in His mind is that we should have part with Him. Then the lifting up His eyes "on high" in speaking to His Father, would denote the power of vision directed upwards. The Lord's supper has to do with the period of His absence; it is during His absence from the earth that we are occupied with what is here in the way of memorial, and we have a great deal in connection with order in 1 Corinthians. But all that being dealt with, as we recall the Lord in the supper, there is power of vision which may be directed upward.

Ques. Had the Lord this in view in the first chapter when He said, "Come and see?" Is our education all to that end?

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J.T. That is suggestive. We are called upon to see from the outset of this gospel: "Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending and abiding on him; he it is who baptizes with the Holy Spirit", John 1:33, 34. Our vision is taxed peculiarly in this gospel. "On high" is something that belongs to the assembly; our eyes are directed upwards.

Ques. Have we to be conscious of the Lord's touch before we look up?

J.T. I think so. We get a touch in the supper, and He moves. In the assembly you look for an indication of movement in Him. The more spiritual we are the more we shall understand the movements, and the more we shall discern the trend in the assembly. The Lord is seeking to draw us into the spiritual realm and make us spiritual: in saying in this gospel that "God is a Spirit". He has in mind to make us spiritual, for we must be spiritual to have to say to God; and then He says, "the Father seeketh such to worship him".

Ques. Would the first verse of chapter 13 have that thought in mind?

J.T. That is how the section begins. As they are together it is a question of His going to the Father, and His drawing them with Him in what He says and does; so that having said certain things to them, in chapter 17, He "lifted up his eyes to heaven and said, Father". In chapter 11 He lifts up His eyes "on high" -- giving the idea of moral elevation, but when you have "heaven" you have a place. Those who witnessed that would never forget it. When one of His disciples asked Him to teach them to pray, according to Luke 11, He answered "When ye pray, say, Father". He does not say anything about attitude. We have to learn to say Father, first, then as apprehending Him on high, and then, as in heaven, so that we are drawn into the place. We have the Lord's example here, and the Holy Spirit

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as the Spirit of adoption cries in us, "Abba. Father". That is the normal cry of the Spirit in us: "God has sent out the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, Abba, Father" -- showing how urgent the thought is. He would impress us with that; He would direct us to the Father. Then in Romans we cry, "Abba, Father" by the Spirit of adoption; we have learned to do it, but in Galatians 4:6. He has done it first. The praising in the assembly is to be by the Spirit.

Ques. It says in Luke's gospel that Jesus went according to His custom to the mount of Olives, and His disciples followed Him. Would the Lord put things in an attractive way to us thus?

J.T. I think He would. The word "custom" in that connection is to be noted, it is peculiar to Luke. The idea enters into the assembly, but it is never a mere formality. The Lord never did anything in a customary way as a merely formal thing, it was always in power. The thing had been proved to be in power, so that we need not be afraid of using forms of expression as customary, provided they are in spiritual power. "He went, according to his custom, to the mount of Olives, and the disciples also followed him". All the customs we have seen in Christ, should be regarded in that way; they are proved to be profitable and right, and therefore always in power. In chapter 12 the Lord says, "What shall I say?" That is a good question for us to ask ourselves in taking part. The Holy Spirit will help us as to what to say in assembly. I think that if we challenged ourselves thus, we should hesitate in saying many things. It was not, of course, that the Lord would say anything imperfect, but it is as an example to us. He tells us His soul is "troubled", and adds, "What shall I say?" What should one say as one is affected emotionally, for one's emotions enter into the assembly? Each would do well to ask, "What shall I say?" One may have

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a thought prior to coming to the assembly, but I think we should always challenge ourselves, "What shall I say?" -- it keeps us in dependence.

Ques. Why does the Lord say, "On account of the crowd"? and in the next incident it is on their account -- it would seem to indicate that the Lord was dealing with things beyond them?

J.T. That is a good suggestion. In regard to the crowd He says, "that they may believe that thou hast sent me". Even that enters into the assembly, because we may be there otherwise than in faith. A movement of the Lord touches us, but very often we are like a crowd. It says of Paul and Barnabas in Acts 11:26, that they taught a "large crowd", and we may be in the assembly on the principle of a crowd. We have to be regulated and brought into accord with Christ, both inwardly and outwardly, for we may be together outwardly but not inwardly. In Acts 1, it says the Lord assembled with them, and we have to be spiritual to grasp that thought.

Ques. It was in the presence of death and corruption that the Lord lifted up His eyes on high: is that the region out of which He would attract us?

J.T. He would draw us into the realm of resurrection, so that it is true of us that we have passed "from death unto life". We have the thought in Colossians 2, of being raised "through the faith of the operation of God", and of our being "quickened together with him". All these passages have in view our being associated with Christ in a living way.

Ques. "I go to prepare you a place"; is that the thought of the sanctuary?

J.T. That goes beyond the sanctuary. The sanctuary is a term that belongs to our position here in flesh and blood condition, but it has no force in heaven, for all is holy there. It is rather the family thought when He speaks of "my Father's house"; it looks into eternity. The scripture goes on, "I will

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come again and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also". It is a question of place and association with Him eternally. What we are speaking about is association with Him in the sanctuary now; the sanctuary being an exclusive thought, securing what is due to God in the midst of death and corruption -- answering to God in spite of these things.

Rem. In chapter 16, it says, "Ye shall ask the Father in my name".

J.T. He encourages them to ask and to speak to the Father. He says, "If ye loved me ye would rejoice that I go to the Father, for my Father is greater than I": He would draw them into that relation.

Ques. Are resurrection conditions suggested at the beginning of chapter 12, as opposed to death and corruption at the grave of Lazarus?

J.T. That is the idea. In the sanctuary we see how all that is corrupt is excluded by the power present. The dead man Lazarus was there, "whom Jesus raised from among the dead". He sits at table, and Martha serves, and Mary takes the pound of ointment and breaks it upon Him. You feel there is an atmosphere that is exclusive of all corruption. Judas intervened, but the Lord rebukes him.

P.H. In Psalm 133, one of the Songs of Degrees, it speaks of brethren dwelling together in unity, and in the next Psalm it says, "lift up your hands in the sanctuary". Is that your thought?

J.T. Yes. Psalm 134 is the last of the songs of degrees.

Rem. And Psalm 121 commences, "I lift up mine eyes unto the mountains".

J.T. That is good. The fact is the Songs of Degrees have in view what we are speaking of; it is elevation by degrees until we reach the top. David reached the summit in leaving Jerusalem and he worshipped.

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He is driven out by Absalom but he did not fail to worship. You find at times when we are about to reach the summit, someone will address the Lord in such a way as to pull us down; at least that is the trend. We should all have in mind that the movement is upward. The Songs of Degrees are a gradual ascent until we reach the top. Of course, it is only in the power of the Spirit, but the Spirit is present. We may thus ascend the mount of Olives, as it were. We have in Luke, "the descent of the mount of Olives", which is right in its place, but we have also the ascent.

E.G. If the Father has been addressed and I have it in mind to speak to the Lord, should I not pause and ask, "What shall I say?"

J.T. You should indeed.

Ques. Does what you say answer to Joshua 3, where he says, "Remove from your place, and go after it?"

J.T. The ark there is Christ in power dealing with death; this enters into the position, but Christ in these chapters in John is leading to the Father. There is a lead given in a spiritual way, and we have to learn to move spiritually: "as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God", and one feature of the Spirit's leading is that He cries, "Abba, Father".

Rem. "The people hasted and passed over".

J.T. That is good. The Lord would have us to hasten and follow Him. As we recall Him and He has His place amongst us. He would have us hasten on, not, of course, literally, but He would encourage us not to linger too long on the lower level, but to hasten and pass over. It is said of Mary the mother of the Lord, that as the angel departed from her she went with haste to the hill country of Judea.

Ques. Would you tell us what is the secret of moving intelligently in the assembly, with regard to what you have said -- so that we do not move back

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after the Father has been addressed? What is the secret of being kept on right lines?

J.T. There is a great general principle governing the assembly, that is, its proper function is Godward. That is the prime thought. But then there is the presence of the Lord in it. As soon as He speaks to the disciples, in chapter 14, of the Spirit, that the Spirit would come and be with them, He says, "I will not leave you orphans, I am coming to you". That is a promise which the Lord has never failed to keep where conditions warrant it. It is obviously a spiritual matter, because He is in heaven corporeally. He will come for us corporeally at the rapture, as the scripture says, "The Lord himself shall descend from heaven" to receive us to Himself, but meantime it is a spiritual matter, the medium of action is the Spirit. In the Old Testament the medium of action in this sense was angelic. God came and visited His people in that way -- Abraham and others, but now He comes in virtue of the presence of the Spirit, the Comforter, in the assembly, and the next thing is. Am I spiritual? I need to be spiritual if I am to be in the assembly according to God. These chapters contemplate spirituality in us, so that we can discern movement. It is a place of spiritual action, and the Lord is supreme in it. He moves in it. It is for me to be sensitive enough to discern His movements; and as He moves towards the Father, to move with Him.

Rem. We cannot move to the Father unless we move with Him.

J.T. That is the thought. It is a question of being sensitive and of challenging ourselves: "What shall I say?" I may have a hymn before I come to the meeting: am I going to give that hymn out? It is a question of, "What shall I say?" If I ask this I shall be checked in carrying out any decision reached before the meeting: there should be no decision

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reached as to what to do in the assembly, before we get there.

Ques. What is worship "in spirit and truth"?

J.T. It does not mean there by the Holy Spirit, but spirit in contrast to letter or mere form, and my own spirit is brought into the worship. I cannot get promptings before I come into the assembly, but I get them in the assembly; then, too, I am regulated by the truth. Then again, the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

Ques. Is that where He sings to the Father?

J.T. If He can get us in condition for such a holy, exalted service; that is, if we are great enough spiritually, that is where He sings: "in the midst of the assembly will I sing thy praises".

Ques. Do we need to give place to the Lord as Minister of the sanctuary in order to be intelligent?

J.T. That is what I am thinking of. The point is to give place to Him; that would check any decisions before we come to the meeting, for the assembly is the place for spiritual promptings; and then challenging oneself as to what is said and done.

Ques. What is the difference between the leading of the Lord and the leading of the Spirit in the assembly?

J.T. That is an important matter. If you take as an illustration the end of Luke's gospel, the Lord led them out as far as to Bethany, to that point; but what they did afterwards is left to their own intelligence and this would now make room for the Spirit. The Spirit leads sons of God: "As many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God". He cries in us, "Abba, Father". I have to understand how He does that. He does it through our affections -- through us. So that we qualify as sons of God as led by Him, and that cannot be by

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arriving at a decision before I come to the assembly, as to what I am to do, but I wait till I am there.

Ques. It involves that I am leadable?

J.T. Yes. If I come prepared with an outline of what part I should take then I am interfering with that.

Rem. At the end of Luke they did the Lord homage and continued in the temple. Would it be right to render homage to the Lord?

J.T. It is suitable in its place of course -- in relation to His supper, for instance; "Worthy of homage and of praise" fits there; but there is a good deal after He is apprehended thus, and as intelligent we know that He is there as Minister of the sanctuary, and that the service of God is in His hands.

Ques. Would you confine His service as Minister of the sanctuary to what takes place after the Supper?

J.T. Yes, properly. What precedes that, is what we do as remembering the Lord. The Lord's supper is what we do, for we come together for that.

Ques. Would it be misjudgment to bring in the Father in connection with the cup?

J.T. Quite unintelligent. We must not reverse the order.

Ques. How does the thought of headship enter into this?

J.T. As the Lord is discerned, we accord Him the place of Head, and that gives Him the lead. But then there is the Spirit too, who represents the subjective promptings and the work in us. He operates in our spirits and affections, and these movements are taken on by the Lord. There are the two things, the Lord is Head, but the Holy Spirit operates in us, and is power in us for the promptings in our intelligence and affections.

Ques. Can that be seen in Rebecca being led by the man to Isaac?

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J.T. Pretty much, but it only takes us as far as Christ and the assembly. Instead of taking her to the Father typically, he takes her to his mother Sarah's tent. The bearing of that is the assembly here in testimony; but the Lord would take us in with Him to the Father. Isaac's going to his mother's tent is not going to the Father. This passage contemplates the Lord going to His Father and taking us with Him.

Ques. Does He take us first to Bethany?

J.T. You might say that in the sense that Bethany is the place of love; this would be through the supper. The position in the assembly at the outset is that; we come together to do something, which brings out what the assembly is in this world. Intelligent persons have come together with something in view, and they carry it out. The quality of the assembly is brought into view in the way in which we do things, and our calling Him to mind will give occasion to the Lord to move towards us. You have it in the gospel by Matthew. He appointed them a place of meeting, and He came to them at the appointed place. Some doubted, but they worshipped Him, it says. But He went on: He joins us and proceeds according to what is in His own mind.

Ques. What is the import of the expression "Thou hearest me" -- in chapter 11?

J.T. He was heard from the horns of the unicorns; the Father heard Him, and then He declares His name to His brethren, and then He sings in the midst of the assembly.

Ques. Is the importance of this that not only the Lord gets His portion but the Father also?

J.T. That is the point in the assembly, "To him be glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus".

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Rem. In Genesis 45, Joseph says, "Haste and go up to my father".

J.T. Quite so, his father was in his mind. In John 14, the Lord suggests movement: "Arise, let us go hence", but without saying where to.

J.O.S. At what time does this adjustment take place?

J.T. It is a question of discerning the Lord first. You say, "It is the Lord"; you say it in your soul. John, Peter, and the other five, had gone fishing according to the last chapter of John, and as they see the Lord standing on the shore. John says, "It is the Lord". As He is discerned in the assembly we own Him as Minister, and it is for Him to do what He may have in mind. Am I sensitive enough to discern what He will do?

Ques. Why are the company detained in chapters 15 to 17?

J.T. It is in keeping with what we have been saying. The Lord says, "Arise, let us go hence" without saying where they are to go, nor does the passage indicate that they did move at that exact time. The two chapters following, 15 and 16, are very full for there were many other things to be said, but what is suggested is a new position, "Arise, let us go hence!" Where is He going? What is in His mind? We know from the other gospels that He went to the mount of Olives; and we know from chapter 18 of this gospel that he went to "a garden"; but here, there is no indication of an immediate actual movement, it is more a spiritual suggestion. When He says, "Let us go hence", I am on the alert as to what He is going to do. So He proceeds to say a great deal about the Father, and fruit for Him. That is what comes in. Chapter 15 deals with fruit for the Father, for I am in the assembly for the Father, and am I bearing fruit? Is there that which comes out of my heart for Him?

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Ques. Is it serving in the sanctuary for the pleasure of divine Persons?

J.T. Quite so; I am on the alert.

Rem. It is preceded by "... I love the Father, and as the Father has commanded me ..."

J.T. He had already said, "If ye loved me ye would rejoice that I go to the Father, for my Father is greater than I". That ought to be noted. These are spiritual things that enter into the assembly.

Ques. As God, would the Lord Jesus share in the praises to the Father?

J.T. That is a little forced. He is God, but He is Minister of the sanctuary. If a thing is said, the question is where is the scripture to support it? We cannot think of Him as God and Man at the same moment. It is the Father who is worshipped as God in the assembly. It is of the greatest importance that our thoughts should be regulated by Scripture.

Rem. At the end of chapter 17 He says, "I have made known to them thy name".

J.T. Yes, in the first verse you will observe that after having said certain things. He "lifted up his eyes to heaven". There is no word said about movement; it is having said certain things, which points to a more intelligent platform reached, a more spiritual level. In chapter 14, it is movement, "Arise, let us go hence", but now, having said certain things He lifts up His eyes to heaven. It is a question of what is said -- what enters into the position; and why this movement of His eyes as He addresses the Father? All that has to be taken in and understood. Then in verse 6, He says "I have manifested thy name to the men whom thou gavest me out of the world". Every person in the assembly ought to be able to take account of what He is speaking about. "Manifested" is a word which John uses considerably. It is something brought to our attention that can be easily seen; it is not obscure or beclouded.

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At the end of the chapter He says "I have made known ... thy name"; that is a deeper thing. Firstly, the idea is manifested, and the disciples are called "men", persons who are developed and capable of discerning what is manifested.

Ques. In speaking of the Lord as Minister of the sanctuary in connection with the first day of the week, do you carry the thought on to other meetings?

J.T. Yes, but I think the meeting for the breaking of bread is normally the assembly in function, and the other meetings flow out of that. They are not on the same level, for there is the idea of the "ascent" and "descent" of the mount of Olives. The descent, would be like the meeting for prayer, when we come down to actual needs; where we think of the interests of God as involving need.

The assembly is properly where He ministers, although as Priest and Advocate He cares for the saints individually. In 1 Corinthians 11 we have the assembly in function, so the section begins, "When ye come together in assembly". Elsewhere it is, "when ye come together ... into one place"; but when we come together "in assembly" alludes to the functioning, and that runs right through. It is a question of the ascent and the descent. Both are right, but if we transpose the positions we are wrong. If I bring in a hymn or thanksgiving addressed to the Lord when we are ascending I am confusing the service. The Lord is gracious and does not repudiate us, but we lose, and the Father loses.

Ques. Would a word of ministry that would adjust that be appropriate?

J.T. It is very useful as the Lord blesses it. You make it clear that you are not terminating the meeting, no one should do that, and the Lord often helps in a word early in the meeting to regulate and stimulate the worship.

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Rem. It may be a word of correction or a word of wisdom.

J.T. A word that adds to what has preceded, enriches the company. At the end of chapter 17, we have what greatly enriches the saints, "I have made known to them thy name"; it is a deep, inward service to the end -- as the Lord says here, "that the love with which thou hast loved me, may be in them, and I in them". That is a wonderful statement; it is not simply covenant love, it is not covenant love between the Father and the Son, but it is that exalted character of affection between the Father and the Son. He makes known the Father's name, to the end that that love should be in us. There is enrichment in that exalted character of love, so that we might be qualified for having part with Christ in the assembly. Then He adds, "And I in them"; there is thus to be spiritual body and richness amongst us.

Ques. Does the word "men" indicate that these features are secured in the saints?

J.T. I think so. The use of the word "men" indicates men in the full spiritual sense of the word. It was said by the Queen of Sheba to Solomon, "Happy are thy men". Men are capable of taking in things in maturity.

Ques. You spoke of covenant love as not that which is between the Father and the Son?

J.T. That should be clear to us; nor is the covenant between God and His sons, but God and His people. It is not the same as the love wherewith He loves the Son, that is on a higher level. Covenant love goes on to Israel, but enters into the supper, for the cup is the new covenant in His blood. The "love wherewith thou hast loved me" is an eternal thing. It is descending love, so to speak, not horizontal. We can enter into that, it is to be in us. We could not have descending love between divine Persons in absoluteness, there it must be on equal terms; but the

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love in revelation -- the love of the Father to the Son -- is a descending love, just as the love of the Son to the Father is an ascending love, and we can enter into this. Verse 24 is what is proper to Themselves before incarnation: "Thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world". The last verse speaks of the love of the Father to the Son and that is to be in us. Think of the enrichment of having that love in us, and Christ in us!

Ques. It says the name is made known; is that further on than manifestation?

J.T. It is a deeper thing; the Lord operates and makes the Father's name known to us.

Ques. Do you think that Mary touches the lowest point?

J.T. Mary looks into the sepulchre, but the Lord's message, "Go to my brethren", etc., would direct her gaze upward; He says, "I ascend to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God". Again, He says to her, "Touch me not, for I have not yet ascended"; our links are to be on the line of ascension. What comes in in the rest of the chapter is the completion of the subject. "Mary of Magdala comes bringing word to the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that he had said these things to her" -- and then the Lord Himself comes in.

Rem. In chapter 11 it says, "they took therefore the stone away" -- suggesting that there is a right start. If we start at the bottom, the Lord will help us to rise.

J.T. We are taken out of the realm of the sepulchre; Christ is risen; the Lord spoke to her as risen, and then directed her into the realm of ascension.

Ques. What is involved in "And will make it known"?

J.T. What is in the message through Mary to the disciples. The Lord would stress the importance of it, for it is a great matter. It is the kind of knowledge

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that is in the assembly; it is the richness of the assembly; but it stretches on to ourselves; the Lord will not leave us out of it. The saints should know the Father's name.

Rem. It is not limited to time, but "I will" involves His pleasure in it.

J.T. It is His determination to see to it; the thing is to be done. Thus in the assembly I am free as knowing the Father and I am ready to be led in service to Him; I am sensitive enough to feel an impulse. An unborn babe was affected at the voice of a spiritual person in Luke 1:44, and no person in the assembly could assume to be less than an unborn babe. The youngest of us can be sensitive enough to be moved at the Lord's voice.

Rem. So we may be able to say "Father" without understanding the full meaning of the title.

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ASSEMBLY MATERIAL

Matthew 16:13 - 18; Ephesians 3:20, 21

J.T. It seems right and needful that the brethren should have the assembly under consideration as a great feature on earth now, taking the place of Israel or Jerusalem, the centre of God's operations of old; and also because of the imminence of the Lord's coming and the great place it is to have in the future. Its present place and function command the first place next to the Person of our Lord Himself, so that it comes in in Matthew as the Person of our Lord is brought into evidence, as that which He has, which He calls His assembly. Ephesians gives us the greatest view of it, both in regard to its present place and function, and also its future place and function. 1 Corinthians gives us the assembly as God's assembly here, especially locally, but the Lord speaks of it as His in Matthew, as His Person is confessed -- for the place and service of the assembly can only be understood as the greatness of Christ is understood, whose it is.

W.T.E. What is the idea in the word "assembly"?

J.T. It is persons "called out"; the word was well understood from the outset, even from Exodus. The Lord's use of it in this passage involves a building: a thought which perhaps did not attach to it before. We read of "the assembly in the wilderness" and we read of "the whole assembly of Israel", but the idea of building, and building by Him, gives the term a dignity that it did not have before.

W.T.E. Does it mean an assembly of persons, whether assembled or not?

J.T. Well, there must be the concrete idea of it, and that is when the saints are assembled, but the building of it involves more than so many persons

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gathered under certain principles. The idea of building has to be understood.

H.F.N. You have referred to the thought of the assembly as suggested in Exodus 12, and then the thought of the assembly in the wilderness, but how would you link this up typically in the Old Testament in connection with the thought of building? for the idea of building comes out very early.

J.T. Well, it does. I thought the idea of building attached to it here gives it a distinctiveness that perhaps we do not get earlier in the thought of the assembly. Of course there was building of old, the building of the temple, for instance, which would in some sense correspond; but the word assembly has more than the idea of temple in mind, it is something even more distinctive than the idea of house -- it involves intelligence; as the Lord speaks of it here, it also has a military feature.

Ques. Is it indicated in the expression about Eve, that He builded her?

J.T. He builded a woman -- the idea of building is there, but it is a woman, whereas we have the word "assembly" here.

Ques. Would you say it is all on the ground of resurrection, of what is spiritual?

J.T. Yes, the Lord had that in mind, but the word "assembly" has to be borne in mind too, something that He has, and the full instruction as to that is, I think, in Ephesians.

Ques. Is that why the apostle prays in Ephesians that the eyes of their hearts might be enlightened that they might be intelligent as to it?

J.T. Quite so. First as to the hope of God's calling and then "the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints", and finally "the surpassing greatness of his power ... according to the working of the might of his strength, in which he wrought in the Christ in raising him from among the dead, and

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he set him down at his right hand in the heavenlies, above every principality, and authority ... and every name named ... and gave him to be head over all things to the assembly". That shows us what a place it has -- a marvellous place! In that passage there is the full thought of God's power acting to set Christ in heaven as Head over all things to the assembly.

Ques. Is it a primary thought, not contingent on the defection of Israel?

J.T. It is a primary thought. It shows how the counsel of God worked out in connection with the defection of Israel; that is, Rebekah comes into Sarah's tent: there is no word of a wife for Isaac till Sarah dies.

Rem. So the assembly takes the place of Israel?

J.T. It does, and to understand the type as in Rebekah, we have to see it in Ephesians. You get it in every chapter in Ephesians.

W.T.E. Psalm 22 says, "In the midst of the congregation will I praise thee", verse 22: but when that is quoted in Hebrews, it is "in the midst of the assembly", chapter 2: 12. Why is the word changed?

J.T. Well, it is the Holy Spirit employing the Old Testament in relation to the present time: we have many such instances of the use of Old Testament scriptures in the New: "congregation" in Psalm 22 (Septuagint) is the same word as for "assembly" here.

W.T.E. Does the word "assembly" mean more than a congregation?

J.T. It does. We have two words in Exodus 12:6, the one is "assembly" which is 'a moral whole', even though every person regarded as of it, may not be present; whereas the idea of a congregation is every person in it, meaning that every one is responsible. The word "assembly" there, involves that you have a means of procedure although every

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person may not be there; there is responsibility attaching to it.

H.F.N. We should be glad to get a little help in regard to what you were suggesting as to the peculiar setting of the assembly in Matthew.

J.T. One thought, I think, is, Who are we saying the Lord is? Because if we take up the idea of the assembly, it must be prefaced by what He says in verse 15, "Whom say ye that I am?" The assembly will not have its right place in our minds, unless we apprehend the Person who builds it; He is greater than the assembly. One great feature at the present moment is the greatness of the Person who builds. He is greater than what He builds, but then the assembly is great too. Much may be said or written about the assembly without understanding what prefaces it; the question is, what are we saying about the Person, who is He? It is not simply who I believe He is, but who am I saying that He is?

Ques. Would it give a sense of dignity and character if we had that in our souls?

J.T. It would. The Lord has graciously brought the subject of His Person to our attention, and the brethren are saying some things, and I think He is pleased with what they are saying. We can see the effort of the enemy to rob us of what is being said; and to becloud the truth of the Lord's Person in our souls.

W.T.E. "The Son of the living God" -- would that not suggest how the Lord has been revealed in relation to the thought of life, so that we apprehend Him thus also?

J.T. Yes. He speaks of Himself as the Living One, Revelation 1:17. The bearing of such expressions generally is against Jewish feeling and influence which tend to deadness, to mere routine; the assembly is in a living setting -- "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God".

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H.F.N. How does this go with what John says, "(we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father), full of grace and truth", John 1:14. Would the two confessions give their stamp respectively to the gospel in which they appear?

J.T. John speaks of what the disciples "contemplated", not exactly a revelation. I apprehend it was how they saw Him, as illustrated in the various occasions in which it is recorded that they saw Him with His Father; as for instance, in John 17, and Luke 11. The Lord would be with His Father alone, whether addressing Him in prayer or otherwise, and I think that is what John alludes to. Having the Holy Spirit they could look back to what they had seen, and speak of it in that way -- "an only-begotten with a Father". What reciprocal affections were there! Matthew 16 alludes to the Lord's Person as He actually was then -- "the Christ, the Son of the living God". Operations are in view in this, as I understand it; "the Christ" is the One who does things for God; and "the Son of the living God" is His relation with Him, the dignity of it, involving a living state of things. Operations are in view, which we should expect in Matthew; but in John's gospel, what they saw would be something; that will exist eternally -- the relation of a Father to a Son; not so much what the Son will do, as what His relations are -- what the reciprocal affections are between the Persons. Here it is operations, and the Lord immediately says, "I will build my assembly": there was something in the revelation in Peter's soul that would be stable, that, as apprehended in our souls, would support the great super-structure of God, that is the assembly.

Rem. I got the impression from you that Christ built up on this confession in the soul.

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J.T. That is the thought, it is not a mere theory, it is something in men's souls.

Ques. The expression, "This is my beloved Son", had not been understood but is it now made known to Peter?

J.T. Yes, it was what the Lord was actually there, so that He is apprehended in this way as Man. It is not what He is in Deity viewed abstractly.

Rem. Peter had never seen Him that way before, but now it is made known to him.

J.T. It is in his soul, it is not merely objective, the thing is there. There is that on which the Lord can build, which is not mere theory but something in men's souls; it is not the Lord who reveals it to Peter, but the Father.

Ques. Why does the Lord allude to Himself as Son of man?

J.T. That usually alludes to His breaking the covenant with Israel; He only employs the term in the gospels. It alludes to the abrogation of the relations with Israel, that He is on wider ground: He is at Caesarea Philippi, which is at the extreme north of the land bordering on the nations.

Ques. Would that involve His rejection?

J.T. It does, that is implied in it, and that He is taking up wider ground which we see in Ephesians, the gentiles brought in.

H.F.N. Is there no true material for the assembly apart from this? that until the Lord is confessed in this way we cannot be an intelligent part of it.

J.T. That is the point. You cannot be "Peter" without the confession. "Thou art Peter". Therefore it is a question of what we are saying. If one were to investigate, he would find out what every one of us is saying about Jesus. If we are to be "Peters" there must be confession as to His Person.

Ques. Are we to gather from the Lord's added

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words as to the gates of hell not prevailing, that the assembly is the subject of attack?

J.T. It is, and it has been from the very outset; but the gates of hades do not prevail against it. It is not only Satan personally, but the whole satanic system -- the gates. The features of testimony are seen in the assembly; it is the pillar and base of the truth. God works out all His thoughts in the assembly, as it says in Ephesians 3:10 -- the "all-various wisdom of God". We can see how Satan would marshal all his forces against it.

Ques. Would the expression "the assembly" here come in direct contrast with what we get in Psalm 22, "the assembly of the wicked?"

J.T. Yes. When Sennacherib came up against Israel the word is, "The virgin, the daughter of Zion ... hath shaken her head at thee"; she was unconquerable, that is the idea; the assembly cannot be overthrown -- even in remnant times.

Ques. Is there any relation between this and what the Lord says when He chooses the twelve -- "First Peter?"

J.T. "First Peter" would mean that that was his place among the twelve; but this Peter is not presented as having precedence over other Peters or stones. He represents the material here. Every one who comes to make the confession he did is material for the assembly.

Ques. Would there be an exercise of soul to reach this? I was thinking of Zacchaeus who got to the top of the tree to see Jesus who He was.

J.T. Yes. Zacchaeus is thus an example of what we are saying.

H.F.N. I suppose if we miss this we miss what is distinctive at the present moment, and is not that a very serious matter?

J.T. It is indeed. The Lord, I believe, is bringing

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us to it -- that we should say who He is, say it fearlessly and with intelligence. It is not merely what Scripture says, but the intelligence I have as to it. We are to arrive at the knowledge of the Son of God.

H.F.N. The Lord would not have the very youngest go beyond their measure, but He would encourage us to confess the truth, and in doing so it would become clear to us.

J.T. As was remarked about Zacchaeus, he wanted to see Jesus who He was. He made a mistake in climbing up the tree, but he had the right thought, and the Lord honoured it, the Lord entered his house and dignified him by saying he was "a son of Abraham".

H.F.N. "Two of you", chapter 18; would that revert to this? Would it suppose that even two of them were an intelligent and deliberative company?

J.T. Yes, the Lord would stress the value of those who are of the assembly.

H.F.N. Have we not often taken up Matthew 18:20, and tried to carry it out without this basis in our souls, that is, that the assembly underlies it?

J.T. I think we have. We must understand this. First, the Lord's challenge as to who we are saying He is. If we are saying something as to Him, we ought to be concerned as to whether we are saying what is right: if we do say what is right, we show what we are, that we are of the assembly intelligently. It is of such material that it is made up, and what Ephesians sets out -- and how great it is!

Rem. We should see to it that we endeavour to be in accord locally with the truth of this, that there might be the state with us that prayers might ascend to God the Father.

J.T. Yes. In what I am saying of Christ, who He is, I qualify as material, and then there is the building -- "On this rock I will build my assembly". But He

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says, "Thou art Peter": He gives you to understand that you are material, and He is building what is invulnerable; that gives great stamina to us.

Ques. As to the knowledge of who He is, it says, "Flesh and blood has not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in the heavens". Does that imply a knowledge of His Person?

J.T. The Person as He then was. The assembly is properly outside the range of flesh and blood, it is built as the fruit of the resurrection of Christ, the Person known by the Father's revelation of Him.

Rem. It depends on the work of God in the soul.

J.T. It does, but the thought is what we are saying.

Ques. Is the saying essential? Why is emphasis laid on it?

J.T. Because it expresses your apprehension of the Person, and it commits you. A creed is not a saying; the creeds were written hundreds of years ago, they are formal confessions of faith written down, but the Lord is not alluding to such a thing at all. He is alluding to what each says now because of one's knowledge of Christ. The Holy Spirit gives us increased light about the Lord and we ought to be saying what we understand.

Ques. Would that confession give character to us in our ways?

J.T. Yes, and it commits us. If you keep your mouth closed, no one knows what you hold.

H.F.N. Men are saying certain things in regard of the Lord, and it is a serious thing for us, if we have not sufficient affection to wholly commit ourselves to Him by what we say of Him.

J.T. The disciples here were evidently conversant with what men were saying. One said this and another said that. The "systems" have different

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views about Jesus; some are orthodox; some are infidel as to His Deity, some are doubtful but respectful. At the time of the Lord's question here anyone who would say He was "John the baptist", had a certain amount of respect for the Lord, for they did not have the Scriptures then as we have. Others said, "Elias" -- well, he was a very distinguished man too. Others said "Jeremias" -- "Or one of the prophets" -- those who spoke thus were indefinite, not very interested one way or the other.

Rem. It is the Lord Himself, having reached a certain point, who asked the question, "Who do men say that I the Son of man am?"

J.T. Yes. He constantly raises this question. He does it through one or another by the Spirit, but He is doing it. People are saying various things about Christ, but they do not agree. These alluded to here did not mean to be anything but respectful, nevertheless they were wrong.

H.F.N. It was all on the line of speculation. Would that raise an exercise with us as to what we read? Ministry outside the truth is largely in the realm of speculation, and will give us defective thoughts in regard to Christ.

J.T. I think that is an important warning, for there is much ministry abroad in current Christendom about Christ that does not give the true thought. It is not always against Him, but it is largely speculative, it does not help you: we cannot get any help apart from the Spirit. The Scriptures, of course, convey right thoughts, but I can only receive what they convey rightly by the Spirit.

Ques. Is that the idea in John -- "He shall guide you into all the truth?" John 16:13.

J.T. Yes. We are not asking, "What is truth?" like Pilate; the idea is knowing the truth, and especially as to Christ's Person. We should know it. "Ye have not need", says John, "that any one should

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teach you; but ... the same unction teaches you as to all things, and is true", 1 John 2:27. Today there is much objective testimony as to Him, but little subjective testimony. That is the point here; it is what you have in your soul, and that is by revelation -- which now is through the Spirit. As soon as it is disclosed that the Father has revealed the truth, the Lord proceeds to say He will build.

H.F.N. I suppose the great feature of Matthew as the first evangelist is the objective side of things, and here he comes to what is subjective and what we are prepared to confess.

J.T. Yes, it is something I have in my soul, and all the power of hades cannot take it away from me; in this sense that alone can be depended on.

Ques. So does this revelation, referred to as a rock, become something impregnable in our souls?

J.T. That is the point exactly, who Christ is, known in us in this way -- rejected by the Jews. The time had come for the subjective. Israel affords no solid basis for operations. Now the Lord is looking for something in men's souls that can be relied on, and that is the result of the Father's operations.

Ques. It does not necessarily follow that all who have the Spirit have this revelation?

J.T. No, although they are potential material. But the stone character is in movement -- "To whom coming, as unto a living stone ... ye also, as lively stones", 1 Peter 2:4, 5. Now the whole ground is changed: it says, "He enjoined on his disciples that they should say to no man that he was the Christ", and Peter has the keys of the kingdom of heaven.

W.T.E. Why was that?

J.T. That others should be let in, that the field should be widened, but on the principle of the kingdom of authority. It is seen in Acts 2 and Acts 10.

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Ques. Why were they to say it to no man?

J.T. Because the world was turning away from Him. It says in the beginning of the chapter, verse 4, that "he left them and went away"; there is definite leaving. Now that which he leaves, is left judicially; He is not going to have it whitewashed with things about Him -- but that is what has happened in Christendom.

H.F.N. Having this light in regard to the Lord's Person and this confession, would the kingdom in the light of the assembly throw its light on, and enlarge, everything in our souls? From this point in Matthew, would the kingdom become greater with the light of the assembly shed on it?

J.T. It would. You can see how it would greatly enlarge Peter's function in the use of the keys, that he had this light in his soul. His own office would be just a subservient thought, and that is how he regarded it, that he is just used to let in the gentiles so that the assembly should be built. He would see that everything subserves the assembly.

Ques. Is that why it is brought in that "whatsoever thou mayest bind upon the earth shall be bound in the heavens; and whatsoever thou mayest loose on the earth shall be loosed in the heavens"?

J.T. Yes, to give him full power. We see in Acts 10 how he used it.

Ques. Would like power be extended to the assembly?

J.T. Yes, in chapter 18 the "ye" is the assembly.

Rem. So that today this company which confesses that He is the Christ, has the power to bind and to loose?

J.T. That is the power that belongs to the assembly, but Peter's power was, of course, peculiar to himself. In regard to Ephesians, we see what the assembly is, the vessel of God's praise throughout

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all the generations of the age of ages. It is not here called "Christ's assembly", but "the assembly in Christ Jesus": it is the assembly as I may say Godward; not as a vessel in Christ's hands -- "My assembly" -- here, but what it is Godward, "in Christ Jesus".

Ques. Would this be the fullest thought of the assembly, so that we would touch eternal life here?

J.T. I think so. But here we get beyond eternal life. If I want to get light as to eternal life in the Scripture, I turn to Romans: Colossians and Ephesians include it, but they go beyond it. This is the position and function of the assembly eternally, in Christ Jesus, and there ought to be some correspondence with that now. It is not the formal doctrinal setting out of things, but rather a worshipful statement as to it, the heart full of the thought, which gives us the greatest conception of it. "To him that is able to do far exceedingly above all which we ask or think, according to the power which works in us, to him be glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus unto all generations of the age of ages": I suppose you could not get any greater thought than that as to it, it is a heart full of the great thoughts of God.

Rem. It sets forth one who is able to delight in all that has accrued to God by the working out of His purposes in Christ Jesus.

H.F.N. Do you link it up with the assembly as the vessel of praise in eternity?

J.T. Yes, I think that is the view of it here, and that ought to have some place as we are together in assembly.

Ques. Would you connect it with the beginning of Luke, "Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good pleasure in men"? chapter 2: 14.

J.T. It is the same idea, the heavenly hosts are full of the thought of the gospel. Here it is the

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apostle Paul who really is greater than an angel; I do not think an angel is equal to a member of the assembly in his worship. Certainly when you get a man like Paul in a worshipful spirit, you get something beyond anything an angel could say; the angels are learning in the assembly the all-various wisdom of God, it says. Paul speaks of, "my knowledge in the mystery", the knowledge he had of it, and what the assembly was to be for God eternally; that was what was in his heart, not now so much what it was in the heart of Christ, but "the assembly in Christ Jesus", the position and status of it: that goes beyond millennial thoughts, I think -- it is what it is Godward.

H.F.N. The place that the assembly will occupy in eternity must ever be greater than any position she has in God's ways.

J.McG. Were the sensibilities of Moses right when he wanted to see God's glory and was put in the cleft of a rock? As these desires increase with us, it is vouchsafed to us to get a fuller understanding of the glory of God.

J.T. I think it becomes intelligible to us as we have a vessel great enough to be the residence of divine thoughts. The divine glory finds its residence in the assembly, as we see in Revelation. Here it is 'glory to God': in Revelation 21 it is "the glory of God"; she has the glory of God, that is for its outshining here, there is glory out of it, showing how great a thing it is! But glory to God in the assembly in Christ Jesus: there is something going out of it Godward. The thing comes within our range as individuals, as we see the divine thoughts set up in a vessel which, although finite, is great enough for them. Although you do get great thoughts in the Old Testament, Israel or Jerusalem could never be what the assembly is; and the material is

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indicated here in the confession, in what had been said as to who the Lord Jesus is.

Rem. In Ephesians you have the fully-formed vessel.

J.T. Yes. The full thought of the assembly is in Ephesians; it is in every chapter, as we said.

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THE ENVIRONMENTS OF JERUSALEM

Luke 19:37 - 46

J.T. What is in mind is that we should dwell a little on the environment contemplated in these verses, Jerusalem being in view finding a correspondence in the assembly. We assemble for the partaking of the Lord's supper, and normally find certain surroundings exist which induce praise. This chapter begins with marked interest in the Lord in Zacchaeus, who, as it says, "sought to see Jesus who he was", verse 3. Then in verse 11 we have, "As they were listening to these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was near to Jerusalem": and in verse 28, "Having said these things, he went on before, going up to Jerusalem"; then verse 37, "as he drew near, already at the descent of the mount of Olives" -- all showing that position is in view, and interest in Himself right through the chapter. They had passed through Jericho, according to verse 1. What a rich chapter it is in that way! Although the Lord's death is before Him, for the moment it was Jerusalem's day -- "this thy day". It was a day in which they had opportunity, and all that enhanced the day is in view in the surroundings such as the mount of Olives, Bethphage, Bethany, and particularly Jerusalem itself.

P.L. Is it like the cloud of glory lingering over the city?

J.T. Very like it. The Lord said, "This thy day", verse 42. The surroundings, especially the city affected even Him; He wept over it knowing what was coming, but it was still its day. So that it is not Jerusalem in opposition that is in view, but rather Jerusalem in its spiritual significance for the moment, and its surroundings, as calculated to move any intelligent person with Him.

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P.L. Would the word of the psalmist fit in here, "Praise the Lord, O Jerusalem; praise thy God, O Zion"? Psalm 147:12.

J.T. Just so. Psalm 48, which is said to be "a Song, a Psalm, of the sons of Korah", is full of what belongs to Jerusalem. They walk about it: it corresponds with this setting, See verses 1 - 3 New Translation. So throughout the psalm, it is what is in Jerusalem, in Zion. I think if we get the thought it will help, that in the assembly all these things fit in in a spiritual way and are calculated to induce praise; the Lord alluded to that when He said, "If these shall be silent, the stones will cry out".

T.M. Is the point at which the praise begins -- the descent of the mount of Olives -- significant?

J.T. I think it is. They had passed Bethany. The mount of Olives has its own meaning; I think it refers to the fruits of the Spirit.

Ques. Do you think there is a moral process in the chapter? Seeing Jesus who He was -- would that be an assembly feature?

J.T. That is a good beginning -- who is He? Before the truth of the assembly is introduced in Matthew He raises this question as to who they said He was. Zacchaeus is on that line, he wants to see Him who He is.

Rem. That goes a little further than the Greeks, for they desired to see Jesus -- not who He was.

J.T. Yes. Zacchaeus represents the work of God in these circumstances, although needing adjustment.

H.B. Does the Lord give him his heart's desire?

J.T. Yes. "Today salvation is come to this house". But it would be a greater thing for Zacchaeus to see Him in the environment of Jerusalem; that is where Messiah will be seen in His glory by-and-by. His heart is full as He enters: here it is sorrow, but anticipatively it is joy too.

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P.L. That would fit in to Psalm 48, the first expression, "Great is Jehovah" -- is that who He is? The assembly takes her dignity from Christ, Jerusalem from her King -- it is "the city of the great King".

J.T. Yes, the psalm is full of superlatives, like Ephesians. The nearer you get to the divine centre the greater things are, you see true greatness. The Lord would no doubt recall the Songs of Degrees, how Israel went up, how their feet would stand within Jerusalem's gates; so that He did not deny Himself the joy, in anticipation of the celebration of His praise, but immediately He turns to the real facts, He weeps. But the point we are at now, is what was there spiritually in Jerusalem's day to be entered into, and there were some who entered into it; whatever depth there may have been in their celebrations. God ordered it that they should raise this note. It says, "All the multitude of the disciples began, rejoicing, to praise God with a loud voice for all the works of power which they had seen, saying, Blessed the King that comes in the name of the Lord: peace in heaven, and glory in the highest". It is a very intelligent note. "Peace in heaven", showing there had been advance from chapter 2 where there was peace on earth -- there was understanding of the position.

P.L. Does the presenting of Jerusalem in such beauty in Psalm 48 stand in contrast to the greatest conceivable human assembly in verse 4 -- "For behold, the kings assembled themselves, they passed by together. They saw -- so they marvelled; they were troubled, they fled in consternation"? Is it the eclipsing glory of the Jerusalem of God? What assembly can stand against it if the assembly of kings is to flee before it? The gates of hades will not prevail.

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J.T. All that is very stimulating. If we begin with Zacchaeus we shall perhaps be prepared for these verses; if we begin with that desire, to see Jesus who He is. The Lord, I believe, is calling attention to His person now: who He is. Have we ear to hear?

P.L. Have we to come down like Zacchaeus to learn who He is, because His glory and greatness so shine in His descent according to Philippians 2?

J.T. That is the order, to come down; but then He is ascending to Jerusalem; the One who ascends, descends first. So I think Zacchaeus is a kind of starting point of the instruction here; he had right thoughts but was needing adjustment, and the Lord, knowing this, would have him to get into the position where he could be adjusted, so He says, "Make haste and come down, for today I must remain in thy house".

Ques. Is "thy house" where the adjustment begins in relation to the assembly?

J.T. It would seem so. The Lord would give him every advantage. Zacchaeus would have rights and liberties in his own house, and he would see the Lord there where he would have a certain advantage, and in the house the Lord ennobles him -- He makes it clear who Zacchaeus is. If Zacchaeus wants to know who He is, the Lord makes it clear who Zacchaeus is. It was not a question of his riches, but that he was a son of Abraham; it was a great spiritual dignity, which we all need. If we have the sense of what the Lord is in our hearts, the Lord would give us to know what we are; not according to flesh or according to the riches of this world, it is a question of being linked up with Abraham the father of believers.

P.L. So that, if Abraham waited for a city, would his son be secured praising in the city of our God?

J.T. I think that is the line. The Lord said,

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"Today salvation is come to this house, inasmuch as he also is a son of Abraham". The Lord would say, as it were, "You belong to the great family" -- that is a feature of the adjustment.

Ques. Would a son of Abraham involve the thought of inheritance as well as faith -- "thy seed"?

J.T. Yes, being a son he would come in for all the promises.

O.G. Would it imply that, in order to apprehend the Person who He is, there must be faith?

J.T. Exactly, and the Lord alone can show us who He is. He puts Himself in the position where Zacchaeus can see Him near. The nearer you get to Him the greater He becomes to you. So things are all there now. Zacchaeus did not have to wait. "Today salvation is come to this house". Adjustment is a present thing, it has not to be waited for. If there is one who desires to know who the Lord is, He is ready to adjust him: but it is not on the line of going up a tree, but of coming down.

T.M. Is it in the apprehension of who Jesus is that we are able to descend?

J.T. Just so. Although the Lord was ascending to Jerusalem in the sense of which we have spoken, from the mount of transfiguration to this point it was a continual descent in another sense, that is, that He was going to Jerusalem to die.

Ques. Does the psalmist in Psalm 45 suggest who He is in the way he speaks of the King? verses 1, 2.

J.T. Hebrews tells us that is all said to the Son. "Unto the Son he saith, thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever", chapter 1: 8. The Son is called God. The present is a time of adjustment, which is the great need. God is working to this end, but there are thousands and thousands of His people who need adjustment, and Zacchaeus represents these. He wanted to see Jesus who He was, but took his own

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way of finding out, and our own way is never right: we have to come under the Lord's authority and word -- "make haste". The question of time and place enters into this chapter remarkably.

P.L. What a visitation, at the close of the dispensation, the glory of His person shed upon those who have no heart but to see Him!

J.T. Yes, you would love to have the ministry of the truth of His Person spread abroad; I think the Lord is doing it in a little way, but then the adjustment must come in. I may take my own way of seeing who He is, but that way is never right. I have to learn from Him, to get into the right position; position is important -- where one is spiritually.

P.L. So that the understanding of His Person lies in affinity of mind to Himself -- "Let this mind be in you", Philippians 2:5.

J.T. The descending mind -- yes. One might seem to be zealous and running ahead in taking up a position of his own choosing that seemingly would give an advantage, but anyone could see it would not be an advantage to look down on the Lord as Zacchaeus did. If I am on the throne of an archbishop, I cannot see the Lord rightly, it is a question of getting down. The Lord says, "Make haste and come down": then He gives him an inducement -- "Today I must remain in thy house. And he made haste and came down, and received him with joy". He was adjustable: many are not adjustable, and they do not learn: it is in moving at His word we get light: Thou "satisfiest the desire of every living thing", Psalm 145:16. The greatest desire one could have, in a way, is to see Jesus who He is. When He became man the angels saw Him: it was a great day in heaven when Christ was born; they came down in multitude to where He was, they were there praising and blessing God.

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P.L. Is the distinction between Abraham, and his son here, evidenced in that the Lord visits the tent door of Abraham. He does not go in apparently; but here the word is, "I must abide at thy house"? Do you think there is a suggestion in a veiled way of what the incarnation is, that Person is dwelling with men, in contrast to the visitations in the old dispensation?

J.T. I am sure there is a beautiful link between the two occasions. It is the same Person who visited Abraham who is now in Abraham's son's house, and announces, "Today salvation is come to this house". But this follows Zacchaeus's speech, what he said showing that the question of righteousness greatly enters into the adjustment that is going on. "Zacchaeus stood and said to the Lord. Behold. Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor, and if I have taken anything from any man by false accusation, I return him fourfold. And Jesus said to him, Today salvation is come to this house, inasmuch as he also is a son of Abraham". What a group of things you have there! Abraham's character is in the man. The characteristics of Abraham are present in the righteousness, for righteousness must go with faith, righteousness and practical works must go with faith, and Zacchaeus alludes to that; he had been unrighteous, but he was making things right, fourfold. The principle of adding in Leviticus 5 enters into it. If one trespassed, the principle of adding the fifth part was there -- it was righteous -- so that he is a son of Abraham is evident, and the sons of Abraham are the ones who look for Zion. Abraham looked for a city, Hebrews 11:10.

Rem. Would you say they are in the secret too? "Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do?" Genesis 18:17. How much would be communicated to Zacchaeus as in the house!

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J.T. Very good. That is another feature, you have the mind of God about what is happening internationally, you know the end. Abraham went to the place where he had stood before Jehovah and saw the destruction of Sodom; he had the mind of God as to Sodom.

The next thing you get is in verse 11 -- "As they were listening to these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was near to Jerusalem and they thought that the kingdom of God was about to be immediately manifested". That was another side to the adjustment. We are apt to have wrong thoughts, to miscalculate the circumstances: He was near to Jerusalem, and they thought He was about to set up a kingdom, but He was not. Many are darkened by miscalculations. He was near Jerusalem, and people say, 'The end is nigh. Look what is happening in the East, and in different places'. But that is not the way you get the light; we never reach a right understanding by calculating on current events. The Lord gives the way the truth is arrived at in what He said: "A certain high-born man went to a distant country to receive for himself a kingdom and return. And having called his own ten bondmen, he gave to them ten minas, and said to them, Trade while I am coming. But his citizens hated him, and sent an embassy after him saying, We will not that this man should reign over us". That is the position -- an unexpected turn of affairs. Then, in verse 28: "Having said these things, he went on before, going up to Jerusalem". If we transpose the thought from literal Jerusalem to the assembly, we can see what is in view; it is the spiritual thought He has in mind, and what follows brings out the spiritual environment. There is Bethany, Bethphage and the mount of Olives, and Jerusalem itself. Then you find there is a colt tied on which no child

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of man has ever sat: that is to say, those to be used in these new circumstances are not of human training, and the Lord is looking for such.

Ques. Would the sycamore tree suggest the sphere of human training, involving climbing, whereas the Lord gives light as to His own Person as we give up this?

J.T. I think so. He is to come in as carried by what man has nothing to do with. The whole system of christendom is largely borrowed from Judaism and heathenism, but the Lord is not using that, the child of man has sat on that: He is taking up material that has been unused by the world.

P.L. Is that the force of the word in Hebrews, "Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty?" Have you what is living in contrast to Judaism, the atmosphere in which the glory and greatness of the Person shines throughout the epistle? There are many touches as to who He is in His divine personality, is this the atmosphere in which the colts are set free?

J.T. Yes. Timotheus is one who did not come under human culture; he was Paul's child.

P.L. Even his father had never ridden him, so to speak, though he was a Greek.

J.T. The parental influence was evidently on the maternal side and it was in faith and so not of man. From his childhood Timotheus had been prepared for this -- knowing the holy Scriptures. The material the Lord would use is not what is developed in religious circles in this world. No child of man ever sat on this colt: the Lord is the first to sit on him. It is of great importance that in this sense the Lord is the first to use you. It is a great disadvantage if one has to be converted very late in life after being used by the world. A young believer in the household of godly parents is the idea here, the

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world has never used him. It shows the importance of right training for the young.

P.L. Would Bethphage and Bethany suggest locality, so to speak? Are the slopes of Olivet, adjacent to Jerusalem, a kind of spiritual site.

J.T. These localities are adjacent to the great centre and have spiritual significance in that sense. I think the different epistles denote the varieties of localities: Corinth is different from Thessalonica, and Colosse is different from Ephesus; Bethany is something by itself. Olivet is something by itself, and Bethphage is something by itself: all leading to the great centre Jerusalem, representing the spiritual side, I think, in the assembly which is one whole. Ephesians is not the idea of a locality, though Ephesus is a locality, but the epistle presents the assembly in relation to the purposes of God; that is Jerusalem as we are speaking of it.

P.L. These localities (at least Bethany and Olivet) had contributed richly to the Lord; now what He claims in Bethphage is given to Him freely in the colt.

J.T. In none of these places is the Lord detained. He passes through Jericho. He is on the way up, and spiritually, that is how the truth stands. He is moving to Jerusalem. If any company is unduly local, they would be apt to detain the Lord there, they would not allow Him to pass on to the great central thought. The assembly seen in Ephesians is the great central thought, and the nearer you get to it the greater the praise. So that "if these shall be silent", the stones would immediately cry out; the environment is so full of spiritual things that it induces praise.

P.L. So it says, "Whither the tribes go up", Psalm 122 -- it was "Israel's custom".

J.T. That is the idea -- Israel's custom. It was a spiritual touch; they might start from the north and

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come down; they might be refreshed on the way by a synagogue, but they are not detained; Jerusalem is the great objective, and that should always be in view in the assembly, the great central thought. Glory to God "in the assembly in Christ Jesus unto all generations of the age of ages", Ephesians 3:21.

P.L. Your allusion to not being detained in localities is suggested in the beginning of Acts 19. "Paul, having passed through the upper districts, came to Ephesus". Would that be a little like these places on the slopes of Olivet?

J.T. Yes. In fact you can enlarge on that in that section of the Acts. He starts out from Corinth which, as we were saying, is one line, the order and authority of the Lord, and he takes with him Aquila and Priscilla and leaves them at Ephesus and goes on; he went up to Jerusalem and saluted the assembly. Then he comes back by the upper regions, and you find him at Ephesus again. He did not go to Ephesus by the Corinthian route, as it were, it is another route: he takes the upper route spiritually, it is a question of the heavenly side, I think, for that is the thought in Jerusalem.

J.L.H. Is that why at the end of the gospel they return to Jerusalem with great joy?

J.T. Yes. Jerusalem has a remarkable place in this gospel: I suppose it is spiritually the great end to be reached.

A.M. In the Ephesians the apostle writes to the saints in Ephesus, as in Revelation 2 and 3. You were speaking of in Jerusalem.

J.T. "In Jerusalem" is a characteristic expression in Luke. Simeon is characteristic in this respect -- "There was a man in Jerusalem". The Holy Spirit has a great place with him. "It was divinely communicated to him by the Holy Spirit, that he should not see death before he should see the Lord's Christ.

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And he came in the Spirit into the temple". "The Holy Spirit was upon him". In Ephesians it is, "The assembly in Christ Jesus" -- that is the position.

Ques. To reach that thought do we need to know the surpassing greatness of His power towards us who believe?

J.T. Exactly, we need to be strengthened by the Father's Spirit in the inner man -- things are so great, Ephesians 3:16. The environment in our chapter is so great, it induces praise. It is the continuance of Zacchaeus, who had the Lord in his house. It is a secret you can keep, like Paul, who could speak of what happened fourteen years ago. The next thing is, Are you listening? -- "As they were listening ..." he added verse 11. The Lord is "ascending up to Jerusalem", verse 28.

Ques. What about brothers who do not give thanks? Would not that be in view in "the stones will cry out"?

J.T. I think that is the point. If I am not moved in this environment, I am harder than a stone! Some of us have been saying that in John's record there is a good deal more said at the last supper than in any of the other evangelists, and mainly to draw the disciples away to the Father. So in the assembly: we begin with the Lord Jesus, which is right, but He would direct us to the Father. He says, "My Father is greater than I", John 14:28, and "the Father himself has affection for you, because ye have had affection for me", John 16:27, and "in that day ye shall demand nothing of me ... Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give you". Then, at the end, in chapter 17, He speaks to the Father Himself in their hearing; they would thus understand how to speak to the Father.

Ques. Is that indicated in the parable. "A certain high-born man went to a distant country to receive

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for himself a kingdom and return ..." Opening up what is presented in His Person and what He had received Himself from the Father?

J.T. Yes. He is high-born indeed, we cannot make too much of Christ, but then He would direct us to the Father -- "My Father is greater than I". Personally He is equal to the Father, but He took a lower place as Man and He would use this fact to direct our minds to the Father.

P.L. "Remember for David all his affliction" -- the sufferings of Christ have this great divine objective in view that "Jehovah hath chosen Zion; he hath desired it for his dwelling. This is my rest for ever; here will I dwell, for I have desired it", Psalm 132. Is that what is in your soul as you go up?

J.T. Quite. Going up is the thought. He was ascending to Jerusalem; and the nearer you get to it the greater the volume of praise. "Praise waiteth for thee, O God, in Zion"; so that, if we do not praise in the assembly, we are harder than stone: In answer to the Pharisees, who would have Him rebuke the disciples, the Lord says, "If these shall be silent the stones will cry out".

Ques. Do you think if we were more intelligent on the line you have been speaking of there would be more praise?

J.T. I am sure of it. Suppose we were all put into heaven now: you say, 'The Lord would command the heart', but then the environment would affect you too. So, in the temple everyone says, Glory.

Rem. It involves formation spiritually, does it not? Is not that brought about by seeing Jesus who He is?

J.T. Yes, and then the listening, that is, to the ministry the Lord continually gives. "As they were listening ... he added and spake a parable".

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We will get what is needed if we are listening. The parable shows how fair He is as the Master. "Having called his own ten bondmen, he gave to them ten minas, and said to them, Trade while I am coming". On his arrival back again, having received the kingdom, "he desired these bondmen to whom he gave the money to be called to him, in order that he might know what every one had gained by trading". We all know what happened. But it serves to show what the Lord is as a Master. He says, "Take from him" (that is the unfaithful servant) "the mina and give it to him who has the ten minas". All that there is comes to those that are trading and gaining. I believe in these last days there is a gradual reduction when there is unfaithfulness: the religious denominations are losing what they had; it is gradually taken away and given to those who are faithful. That is how matters are now.

Ques. What would be the difference between trading and putting it into the bank to receive interest?

J.T. The primary thought is, "Trade while I am coming". Well, that is very simple to those who are in business. The bank will not give you very much; if you are a good trader you will make far more of the capital. Putting money in the bank is a lazy business: I am content with less rather than going to the trouble of trading. Trading is the thing -- making as much as you can out of it. Still the bondman that laid up the money in the towel is rebuked, for had he put it in the bank there would be some gain. The parable shows that the Lord will accept any gain from what He commits to us.

Rem. "Instant in season, out of season", 2 Timothy 4:2.

J.T. Yes. I was thinking of the bearing of this on the colt. There is no idea of reward given to the

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colt, it is a question of obedience, but what an honour he had of carrying the Lord into His capital! Those who love Him never think of any gain they get -- it is the Lord, and how glorious He must have been as sitting on the colt, if even the stones would cry out, were the disciples silent. The position is according to the prophecy, Zechariah 9:9; there is nothing in it at all to detract from His Person; so it is according to the mind of God, and you would love to have the sense that the Lord is using you according to the prophetic word. It is entirely according to the mind of God.

P.L. And it is a service offered to the youngest. It should greatly encourage us.

J.T. Well, it is in keeping with the beginning of the service of God in Exodus: the beginning of the service of God is marked by youths of Israel, they do the priestly work, so that the young are called into this, into the greatest service.

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SUBJECTIVE FEATURES

Exodus 1:17, 21; Exodus 2:1 - 10; Exodus 15:20, 21; Exodus 35:25, 26

The women of Scripture, as signalised by the Holy Spirit, afford a most interesting study. They stand for the divine product -- the divine result which God would reach, culminating, when viewed in a general way, in the assembly, or when viewed in detail, in the result to be reached in each of the books of Scripture.

So these scriptures in Exodus afford help regarding the divine end to be reached. This book has in view not only what its name implies, the exit of the believer from the world, but also the divine abode.

Genesis treats of the house of God in the abstract, but there is no building there, so that David in Psalm 132:5, in thinking of the resting place of the ark -- the abiding place of God, refers to Genesis 28 in speaking of "an habitation for the mighty God of Jacob". But this merely presents the house in the abstract, and an abstract idea is not enough for God. It is important to begin with the abstract thought, but you must have the concrete idea. Exodus represents this.

The house of God appears in Scripture whilst the man of faith, Jacob, is on a journey. It is, in that sense, for those who take a journey. Going to heaven by the power of God is not that idea. The rapture is a question of power, not in us but in Him, not the Spirit in us, but the Lord coming for us. If we reach it now in the Spirit, that is a question of spiritual power; but going to heaven literally is not a journey -- "the Lord himself ... shall descend from heaven", 2 Thessalonians 4:16.

The house of God is what comes in as an immense provision as we move on the way. So in

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coming to Exodus we get education under the figure of the tabernacle, something which can be taken down and put up again, something admitting of a journey. Christendom has lapsed from the idea of journeying. National churches and the like have lapsed from the tabernacle thought, which suggests movement.

So the believer begins to move. "Arise ye, and depart; for this is not your rest" (Micah 2:10) -- that is the principle of the gospel. Luke brings the gospel to where we are, and sets us up locally as justified by the grace of God and having the Spirit. But in John it is "Come, see a man"; you move out. Luke presents grace; John presents love; and love moves its object, so that throughout it is "Come and see". So the believer moves; and on the way home to heaven you have home comforts; heaven comes down. Luke shows this side too, at the beginning of his gospel. The angel is near by the shepherds, and the glory is round about them. What an encouragement for the believer as he sets out! So in Exodus the glory is before them and behind too. In Luke a multitude of the heavenly host comes down, heaven is brought down, the house of God -- heaven here; enough for our comfort and satisfaction as we journey, so that we shall not falter.

These scriptures show how the material for the house comes about. The women refer to subjective conditions. Since the recovery of the truth the objective conditions are usually right; God keeps what is of Christ presented to the saints, but Genesis and Exodus bring in a subjective element which culminates in material for the house. It is not the presentation of objective truths but it is what is subjective, and inwrought, so that the believer is the thing himself. "Thou art Peter"; that is the material. In John it is "Thou shalt be called". Each Christian,

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as having the Spirit, is material. You can say of him that potentially he is something: "Thou art". He takes on also character and personality as having the Holy Spirit. There is therefore who I am and what I am. The one makes me material for another world, and the personality gives me distinction and status among the persons. "Moses and Aaron among his priests". Psalm 99:6.

The midwives present that feature in us subjectively the feature of unselfish attention to what God is doing. They are not the mothers of the children, but just Hebrew women, in reproach like the infants. They are attentive in regard to what God is doing. It is important to understand what God is doing. The book begins with the "sons of Israel", (Exodus 1:1) a dignified people, and we must regard them spiritually in the light of sonship. They had come in with their father, they had come in in dignity, and in the recognition of the patriarch and the light of God, of Christ typically.

Now they meet with tremendous opposition, which would seek to extinguish them. Pharaoh's idea was to cast them into the river. If you cast out an infant it is cruel, it would be better to destroy it. They are to be cast out, exposed to the power of the world, with no protection -- a solemn consideration for parents. "Casting out their infants", Stephen says, "that they might not live", Acts 7:19.

So the midwives represent unselfishness, but there is also a link of relationship for they are Hebrew women. The term "Hebrew" refers to the reproach of Christ. Many are turned back by this, but Moses' parents did not "fear the injunction of the king". According to Scripture Moses himself feared not the wrath of the king, an important matter in view of the exodus and the house of God. Moses came to this in time. He is told to go and stand "in front

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of" Pharaoh, Exodus 7:15. Like the lion, he turns not aside for any. You fear God. If I fear to confess Christ before men, I do not fear God. If I fear God, I do confess. The Lord has to say to us as to non-confession before men.

So the women feared God and saved the boys, the most precious thing on earth at that time. It is not a mere matter of history, the Holy Spirit writes about what exists all around. Young ones are coming into being through the testimony of the gospel. The enemy would destroy them by the influence of the world, but the women stood athwart that and boldly saved them alive. It has a voice to us as to open identification with the reproach of Christ. They are Hebrew children, and these God-fearing women, unselfishly for they are not the mothers, saved the male children alive. How shall we have additions except as the male children are saved alive? It requires courage and skill; but these women were equal to the occasion; we might almost say they have professional skill; God dealt well with them. Our gatherings will not die out if this is done. God has great resources; He can be brought into every little thing and knows how to do well for us. We leave Him out of many little things, as if they were not His province. Even in the natural creation, God cares for little things. The farmer casts a grain into the earth, but God gives the grain a body. How much more does He care for little things in regard of the lives of His people! Even the hairs of your head, it says, are all numbered. So God dealt well with the midwives, and the people multiplied. And God makes them houses.

What attention He pays to us! Presently a house has to be made for Him. We build houses for ourselves also; the Lord refers to this in the gospels, and raises the question of the foundation. One has

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observed the houses that brothers and sisters build around themselves spiritually, alas, they sometimes collapse. If you see what God builds around you for your comfort, then you will understand what is suitable to God: you have to learn everything from God. These women would not want a house with a gorgeous garden, as if it were a millennium, nor yet a palace in Egypt, but it would be the sort of house that is suitable to God.

In Exodus 2 we have a mother. The babe has grown a little and has become attractive, like the Thessalonians. We come here to maternal features. A young believer is more than a male Hebrew, he is born into the household of faith. And so we have here Moses' mother, a most intimate relationship. This feature is carried into the assembly. Jerusalem above is our mother, its place is above in the thought of God, and that governs it -- it is heavenly in principle.

Moses' mother saw the child beautiful. And are these young believers not beautiful? As you see them in the divine mind, as you see them with God's eyes, are they not beautiful? They are fair to God, as was said of Moses, exceedingly lovely, Acts 7:20. If I love the saints I shall brook the opposition of the devil. The divine generation is worth dying for. This is what underlay the attitude of the martyrs. How much we owe to the martyrs! Stephen did not fear, and how he spoke of Moses! "Not fearing the wrath of the king", Hebrews 11:27. They accepted martyrdom to save the children.

This action of faith leads on to a positive saviour being found for the child in Pharaoh's daughter. She was very different from her father, she had not the same terrible opposition to God. We must allow for the sovereign action of God. She had compassion, although she knew that it was one of the

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Hebrews' children. The service is augmented from an unexpected quarter.

And now the sister comes into evidence. She watches to see what will become of the child. The child is in danger every day, as he goes to town, or to school -- particularly at school. Have an eye on them! The sister does it here, she is not told to do so, but she is moved by family affection; and her service is most effectual. It brought the child back to his mother, so that she might nurse her own child.

It is like Paul among the Thessalonians -- "as a nurse would cherish her own children", 1 Thessalonians 2:7. This was the secret of their growth and loveliness. The child stayed long enough under his mother's influence to be spoken of as "grown". If a child is under the mother's influence till it is grown, there is hope for it. In the mother's house, under the mother's love, the child grows, and as grown it can enter into the house of Pharaoh's daughter, and go through unscathed. The maternal service is essential for the continuance of the testimony. I do not speak of literal boys and girls, but of what is to be material for the assembly. In chapter 6, Jochebed's name is mentioned as the great mother of the priestly family.

I come now to Miriam. What is needed when Moses is grown is the prophetic word; but what we have here is the prophetic word in one who had to wait ninety years before her name is mentioned. But it is not that she was not a prophetess before, she is now called the prophetess -- she was there before the thing existed. It is better that the thing should be there, than that we should be speaking of it: we do not get things named in Scripture before the thing is there. How essential is the prophetess as young people grow up, to convey the mind of God, to speak to their consciences! Moses became identified with the Hebrews, and we need the mind of God.

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At Caesarea there were four women who prophesied (Acts 21:8); the thing was going on. Miriam is said to be the sister of Aaron here, she had had a secret life with God. Aaron is not mentioned till he is over eighty, but he was well-known to God: "Is not Aaron the Levite thy brother? I know that he can speak well", Exodus 4:14. Miriam had grown up in secret relations with God amid all the scorn of Egypt, and now she is named as the prophetess. She would not be gossiping as moving among the people of God, but, would be bringing in the mind of God -- like Anna, "who did not depart from the temple, serving night and day with fastings and prayers", Luke 2:37.

And now she knows what to do. She takes her timbrel, and all the women of Israel follow her -- what an influence she had! A woman influencing women is a matter of great consequence -- Miriam would give a proper lead. Her secret life with God develops into influence, and all the women went out after her and she answered them. Whatever they had, she was equal to it. And so God is praised by all the women of Israel.

In the spinning (chapter 35: 25) we have actual toil. It is what every wise-hearted woman did. Earlier the men had brought things as raw material which suggests the objective side. In the women you see the spiritual side, the hands are occupied. Handling the goats' hair would be toilsome work, wearing to the fingers. It is well to attend the meetings and listen to ministry, but what are you doing with it? How is it going into the tabernacle, how is it contributing to the principle of dwelling? The Holy Spirit in this book is leading on to the tabernacle. The raw material has to be rendered suitable for it. "All the women whose heart moved them in wisdom, spun goats' hair", Exodus 35:26. The heart was in it, and wisdom of heart. So Paul "as a wise architect" laid

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the foundation. In Proverbs 14:1 we read "The wisdom of women buildeth their house". This shows us the importance of applying ourselves to actual toil.

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ASSEMBLY MATERIAL

1 Corinthians 11:17 - 26; Acts 13:1 - 4

J.T. I thought we might consider the assembly from the standpoint of its novel composition, that is, involving the idea of men. In our meetings on the Spirit earlier we spoke of the aim of the apostle to bring about conditions of soul growth in Corinth. He spoke in chapter 10 as unto intelligent persons but that would be men in a potential sense because they were that really. He could hardly introduce the great subject before him save as assuming that it would not fit in in any other setting. It is not a matter for children or babes in Christ but for men. The assembly involves something withstanding evil in this world. All is for God in testimony so that there is the idea of these men, in the sense of developed manhood. It was the thing I had especially in mind in suggesting these scriptures which would have a bearing on the Supper. What is needed for very many other things of God is fully grown manhood. If a local assembly is not composed of men it is sure to discredit the testimony rather than to help it. In truth we need the women, the sisters, and even the young people but obviously the men will form the prominent feature.

H.G. The intelligent men referred to in chapter 10 would be as potentially having the Spirit but not as being formed here.

J.T. Numbers helps us in that. All the males were taken account of over 20 years old: all believers who had the Spirit. But they were not necessarily full grown men, and able to go forth to war. But we have the idea of 25 years old and the idea of 30 years old in the Levites. The range from 30 to 50 years old would allude to a man in his prime, both physically and intellectually. All that enters

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into what we are saying. So that the Lord speaks to His Father in Matthew 11 about the disciples and calls them babes, but in His last remark to His Father in our hearing He calls them men. I think that helps to show what is meant: "The men whom thou gavest me", John 17:6.

H.G. Is it your thought that the place where it says, "Thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes" suggests an infantile condition in the disciples?

J.T. I think so. He speaks to His Father about them in the hearing of others. In John 17 he calls them men. A good deal had intervened between these estimates of them. I thought in our remarks we might touch on the Lord's way in His ministry with His own. I think that Peter in Acts 1 illustrates the Lord's remarks about them in calling them men. Peter's service before the Spirit came shows manliness. He knew what to do. He stood up amongst the brethren. He would feel that there were only eleven. That is a good point in any locality. You feel that they were not what they ought to be. The situation is broken up. Judas was gone. I think we ought to feel that. Anyone that does not feel that is dead. Peter felt it and spoke about it. Possibly he had thought over it many times because he knew the Psalms. He spoke about the Psalms and he said: 'Now we must nominate one who has assembled with us to take this position, to fill this place'. The word 'assembled' is remarkable. "Assembled with us all the time in which the Lord Jesus came in and went among us ... until the day in which he was taken up", Acts 1:21, 22. That seems to me a very manly statement. It denotes a man's way of looking at things. He was certainly quitting himself like a man. He was taught even before the Holy Spirit came. So that Luke makes a point of that and also that the Lord before He was received

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up was assembled with them, and he says He told them to stay in Jerusalem until the Holy Spirit would come "after now not many days". So that Luke portrays the fully grown men, which the Lord indicated in speaking to His Father, they were there. In his gospel Luke does not give Peter so much credit and Mark exposes the eleven thoroughly in regard of their lack of manliness after the Lord arose; Matthew, too, also exposes them. But in the Acts the touch is beautiful bringing out the result of the forty days' work of the Lord. What a change had come about! I thought it was illustrated in Genesis 46 and 47 in Joseph's five brethren. He selected five men from the whole number of his brethren. That is, the whole number was searched out so that these five men might be presented to Pharaoh. They would represent what Joseph would believe would be suitable. He had already instructed them as to what to say, and I think that is another point. We cannot be in the assembly according to God save as taught of the Lord. So that we have to go over the gospels in order to get the full thought of how the Lord speaks with His disciples; how He was amongst them.

L.S. Would you suggest that the five men in Acts 13 were in accord with that?

J.T. Surely, very much so.

L.S. They are not just mentioned. They are fully furnished.

J.T. Just the idea; "The men" the Lord says. There they are. You are to ask Joseph about his brethren. He would bring the five forward. We are not told their names but we are told that they are selected out of the whole number. A real search out of the whole number.

-- M. Mark speaks of the Lord calling twelve and Peter speaks of "the men who have assembled with us". There would be training there.

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J.T. Very good. There would be training in the interim. It is the handiwork of Christ.

H.G. In the selection of the five brethren which were presented to Pharaoh, have you any thought of the Lord's selection in the morning meeting and His choice of the best to render to God?

J.T. I think He would select. If Paul were present the Lord would not pass by him. Would you have that in your mind?

H.G. Yes.

J.T. Undoubtedly there were these five in Antioch, who were the outcome of a year's teaching by Barnabas and Saul. It would be a sort of pattern for us. You might say it is the opposite to Corinth. There were none there that Paul could write about in this way. Think of what they were doing. He says, "When ye come together in assembly, I hear there exist divisions among you, and I partly give credit to it. For there must also be sects among you". They had the idea of the assembly evidently. He must have instructed them in that but see how they were degrading it! They were eating the Supper theoretically. And yet they had received from him "that which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus, in the night in which he was delivered up, took bread". It seems to me that there was no treasury there, no power to keep the things that he had delivered in a spiritual way. They had not kept things by the Spirit. We may easily drop down to just attending the meetings, and the Holy Spirit may have nothing to say to us at all. We may carry on the thoughts without the spiritual touch, without the substance. It would have been a godly soul in Corinth who could say, Why that is not anything like Paul said it. I heard him say it. "I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus ... took bread". And he would go over what Paul had said to them, had delivered to them.

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W.B. The five men in Acts 13 would be a great help to the meeting.

J.T. That is just it. They fasted and prayed. They would not get drunk before others.

L.S. How would that apply today? Would such a thing as eating before another and getting drunk be possible?

J.T. Of course our public manners are improved. You perhaps would not get that today even in the denominations. But you may get divisions (verse 18). What is so serious is what underlay the conduct. I suppose they came together in a large place and there was eating, and drinking, and ordering of meals. It is hardly believable, but that is probably what marked the procedure. They were just so many children dealing with divine things. They had the terms but nothing in substance. There was drinking to excess and eating before others, meaning that the others were not eating. The serious thing is touched on in verse 18. The extravagance they went to is corrected today, not by spiritual intelligence, but by orderly correct religious procedure. It would not be permitted today.

J.B. Would it not be possible to leave the Lord out and make it our own supper and not His? Not with the excess that they went to here, but to make it as though the Supper belonged to us in place of coming together under the Lord.

J.T. Yes, just so. The assembly is disregarded and despised. Current religious etiquette would forbid any such extravagance today, but it does not forbid the sects. There are heresies amongst them which have to be, and are, accepted as something which cannot be altered.

J.B. You get discerning the Lord's body in the end of the chapter and there may be the possibility of not discerning that now in the loaf.

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J.T. I am sure that is true. The idea of discernment is important in the assembly. But the serious matter to deal with in verse 18 is the divisions: "I hear there exist divisions among you, and I partly give credit to it". He then says, "When ye come therefore together ... it is not to eat the Lord's supper". He proceeds to show that it was not. Their conduct made it something else. What they did was something else. And so today you cannot have the Lord's supper in any sect. It is something else; it is not the Lord's supper.

-- .D. What caused this sad condition?

J.T. A low state of soul, a fleshly state of things among the brethren. They were divided up into parties following local leaders, a distressing state of things.

-- .D. They had a good start. Paul had 'delivered it to them'.

J.T. It shows they had not the treasury and put the deposit in it. The Supper belongs to the assembly normally. That is to say you look for normal assembly features. It requires spirituality.

H.G. Why is the term the "Lord's supper" used? In the Acts they came together to break bread.

J.T. It is only used here. Would it answer to a certain moral dignity? The very term would solemnize them. It would prevent them from acting as they were doing. I suppose it is the idea of dominance. You cannot go on like this. He touches that in both chapters 10 and 11. The Lord will have to say to you about all this. But the breaking of bread seems to be connected more with the thought of a memorial. We have the memorial here, too, of course, but it is especially in the breaking of bread.

L.S. Say a word as to the assembly, distinguishing it from a company of people.

J.T. It is in a remarkable form. Mr. Darby omits

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the article in verse 18 and I think he is right. I think it is that brethren coming from their homes, or places of abode and their individual relations require and take on dignity. I always think of 10 o'clock in the morning that the brethren are getting ready for the meeting, closing up the home and taking the car out. I always think that as soon as they start out with the view of assembly the dignity is taken on. In a few minutes we are going to be together in an august way, in a dignity that is not known in this world. Heaven is looking on in this matter. How that sister is wending her way to the assembly: the footsteps of the flock. The Lord is building and He is occupied with all that movement. It is converging in a certain point. It comes in in verse 18. It is victory; there is no physical locality. What is in my mind is firstly all the persons and then that I am sitting in relation to them. We are together in assembly. Each is regarded and clothed in that. In a denomination a religious leader would speak and indicate the order, but the assembly sees no visible leader at all; it becomes a great instrument, so to speak, in itself, moving in intelligence and power. That is what I understand. How befitting it is that the procedure begins with the Lord's supper. It is the Lord. Do you agree with all this Mr. G.

H.G. I was wondering if a member of Parliament might be very simple in his own house but would be dignified when he comes into the House of Commons.

J.T. A very good illustration. He would put on dignity. So that you cannot go in and sit alongside them. You might get into the gallery but you cannot get near to them. How beautifully Peter stood up and spoke in the midst of the brethren. There was real dignity. He spoke and there was not another man in the whole universe that could possibly speak like that. Luke's record brings out the result of the

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Lord's work in His men, especially during the forty days.

Rem. Why did He speak so much of the kingdom in those forty days?

J.T. Well I suppose it was the great thing needed in the inauguration; power was needed. But then the idea of the assembly is interwoven in what Peter says: "assembled with us all the time in which the Lord Jesus came in and went out among us, beginning from the baptism of John until the day in which he was taken up from us", Acts 1:21, 22. What a history that was. What manliness there was in His movements, His coming in and going out! In the beginning of that period, that auspicious day when the Lord came where John was, when He came up out of the water, when, as He was praying, the heavens were opened and the Holy Spirit descended, what a day that was! It was the beginning of it.

J.B. Would the assembly not take the place today that He occupied in regard to the Holy Spirit?

J.T. Yes. "So also is the Christ", 1 Corinthians 12:12.

J.B. To get right thoughts of the assembly one would have to see how the Lord moves here in the midst of His disciples.

J.T. That was what I had in mind. It is strikingly shown in Luke 10 when the Lord had sent out the seventy: in chapter 9 it speaks about the "days of His receiving up", and that is the great model for the assembly -- how He is received into heaven. How He is received amongst us. In chapter 10 when the seventy returned telling of their success. He said, "Rejoice not, that the spirits are subjected to you, but rejoice that your names are written in the heavens", Luke 10, 20. The very thought, the very word 'heavens', and their names being there cause a change in His spirit; He rejoices. That is an indication of what you might find in the assembly normally, an occasion of peace in the Spirit. He

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rejoices in spirit and praises His Father. And then after doing that, He says, "All things have been delivered to me by my Father, and no one knows who the Son is but the Father, and who the Father is but the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son is pleased to reveal him", Luke 10, 22. That stands by itself. Then He turns to His disciples, and He says, "Blessed are the eyes which see the things that ye see. For I say to you that many prophets and kings have desired to see the things which ye behold, and did not see them", verse 24. He turned to them. That is one example of how He was amongst His own, and how His Father and He spoke together; He was in a peculiar position that no one knew Him nor who He was, but the Father. In the same chapter He is received into a certain woman's house. The mere reception was not all. I mean that this is not the idea. The idea is in Mary. Then it says He prayed, and then one of His disciples said to Him, "Lord, teach us to pray, even as John also taught his disciples". So we are reminded in regard to all this scene in which He is, and into which He would have the assembly come, that we have got to learn everything in it from Christ. Even how to pray. I believe that is what is meant. We see how He spoke to His followers, and how His spirit rejoiced. We have to learn how to ask things from Him.

J.B. In the house of Martha, Mary was sitting at His feet listening to His word.

J.T. She indicates the attitude of the disciples in asking the Lord to teach them to pray. He accepts their ignorance, that they cannot talk unless they are taught. Joseph instructed his brethren before he brought them to Pharaoh, and I think that all culminates in Luke in the inauguration of the Supper, and how He acted: "When the hour was come, he placed himself at table", Luke 22, 14. That would mean that the idea of place, and public order in

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coming together in the room would be there. We behave properly; we are not in an ordinary house or public place; the very place is as you might say, sanctified. Every movement of mine should denote that I am about to have to do with great matters. Then we have His remark and the use of the passover cup, then the other cup. Luke tells us about the two cups.

I am sure the Lord is pleased with any effort we may make to put into effect what He indicates to us as His mind about things. He is pleased with any thought of it. Then we have to learn that it is not always a question of numbers, because the idea of men must predominate, men, important men.

L.S. The thought would be that they could be easily set in motion. They come under that touch of the Head.

J.T. Exactly. I think the Lord could settle all these things. The Lord loves to see His people facing difficulties and working them out themselves. "Take this and divide it among yourselves". He puts it in amongst us. The angels look down and see what we are going to do about it. They see how we are concerned about the Lord's mind. In Acts 1 the disciples were in the upper room; there was no Christ there nor Holy Spirit, but there were men there; they know what to do and heaven was pleased with that. I believe chapter 1 is morally the basis of Pentecost: the Holy Spirit came down on what heaven was pleased with.

H.G. It is also the men "who have assembled with us all the time in which the Lord Jesus came in and went out among us". That would suggest men that are exercised to become intelligent in the mind of the Lord.

J.T. That is very good. They would be watching the movements of the Lord in that way.

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H.G. David was "he that leddest out and broughtest in Israel" even when Saul was king.

J.T. Very nice. Now Judas comes in. How abhorrent that kind of a man is to this kind of men. The elements that are in chapter 1 are very remarkable and are very much like those in Psalm 1. That psalm is the moral side, the godly man. The spirit of God delights in the moral. Psalm 2 is the anointed man. There is a link between the two and so there is between Acts 1 and 2. The first is the moral side and the second is the official, which constituted our anointing.

L.S. The fact of each being expressed by name would suggest intelligence in these things.

J.T. I think so. Every name in that crowd of names there meant something. It was not just a crowd of persons, but a crowd of names. That laying itself out in that way would be delightful. What went on must have been highly pleasing to heaven, just as the Lord Jesus was highly pleasing to heaven during all the days of those thirty years of His life down here, as manifested in the voice from heaven, "In thee I have found my delight". There is no doubt that John 1:18 refers to that, "The only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father". He came into the effects; it is not, 'In whom is' but "In thee I have found my delight". His moral perfection on earth here shows a most important matter. So the assembly, too, came into heaven's delight before the Spirit came down. The Holy Spirit came down in relation to what was pleasing. All were present in one place.

L.S. The Holy anointing oil only comes into the pleasing idea.

J.T. Exactly. "So also is the Christ". In 1 Corinthians 10, Paul is dealing with the significance of the Lord's supper. It is a question of its significance, what it is, the communion. In chapter 11 it is the

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order in which the supper should be taken, the bread first and then the cup.

H.G. Chapter 10 brings the cup in first and has the idea of being in correspondence with it in that sense. To bless the cup. To bless, of course, is to take. Is that right?

J.T. I think so. It is a solemn thing to be blessing that cup, and yet to be inconsistent with the thing.

J.B. Do we get the thought of the covenant in the 10th or in the 11th chapter?

J.T. Oh, we do not get it in the 10th. There it is the fellowship of the death of Christ. I cannot connect that with anything in this world. The point in chapter 10 is to keep the saints from the world.

H.G. You would provoke the Lord to jealousy.

J.T. Yes. The word assembly is in chapter 11. It is a question of order. Great things are done. Everything should be according to intelligence. The angels are looking on. The very positions of the bread and the cup and the giving of thanks would all be in intelligence. So that we would, "pray with the spirit but ... also with the understanding", we would "sing with the spirit, but ... also with the understanding", 1 Corinthians 14:15. Things must be done intelligently.

Anything inconsistent with heaven will grieve an angel. What they see in the assembly is something beyond that, "the all various wisdom of God" (Ephesians 3:10), something working out as shown in Luke. When it is a question of order it should agree with heaven.

W.B. The five men in Acts 13 ministered unto the Lord and fasted. Such men would quicken and grow in spiritual assembly ability.

J.T. Well that is what we may say. I am glad you brought us back to it. It is the first mention we have in the history of the people, since Pentecost, of

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actual ministry to the Lord. God would say, 'I am thinking of men', but now He is being thought of and ministered to. It is all to bring out what is at Antioch, and to see what leads to the great effects of the ministry of Barnabas and Saul, men that stand out as the kind of ministers that please God. "Barnabas ... was a good man and full of the Holy Spirit and of faith", Acts 11:24. He brought Saul on the scene and a whole year they taught a large crowd in the assembly. Now verse 26 is a remarkable verse that needs analysis. It suggests much as to what follows in chapter 13. It is a matter of a year's work. And then chapter 12 intervenes to indicate what is going on at Jerusalem; Barnabas and Saul had come up there but we do not know that they got any light up there about the assembly. They went up with a gift and they came back, we are told, having fulfilled the service entrusted to them; they also brought back John named Mark. I think you find in Jerusalem what is going on and then you find just what is here. It is not what is at Corinth. Look at the difference! Christians at Antioch.

H.G. Such was the anointed company there.

J.T. That is what I thought. It is presented as a result.

H.G. It had a purpose. It was more than a name given to them.

J.T. I think it is right and it was to stand as it has, too, ever since. It remains very much like the results in chapter 1, only there it is the result of the Lord's own handiwork, and this is the result of the handiwork of two trusted men. The handiwork of the Spirit, of course, but they were there. They are the workers. It is to bring out what is there. The assembly that was there at Antioch. That is the present bearing. Of course, we are in a broken state of things, but the point is what can God see

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about a locality. What is there? Well, here is one thing that can be said. The five men were here and they were ministering unto the Lord, and they were fasting. The conditions that existed made way for the Spirit of God, to carry out administration freely: "Separate me now Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them". That is an instruction which the Holy Spirit gives, and there is complete response in handing over these two men to Him. What can we do here? What can we hand over to the Spirit? But this is a question of the Holy Spirit asking for two men. Can we hand them over to Him? He has put His stamp on them, and he wants us to hand them over. That is the position, and I think there is a very fine product as a result of the work of God in these two men.

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THE ASSEMBLY AND ITS PRIVILEGES

Matthew 16:13 - 18; Matthew 26:26 - 30; Acts 1:4

J.T. I am thinking of the subject of the assembly in a general way involving its privileges, and what I think helps to simplify it is that Peter, to whom the Lord was speaking in introducing the assembly, says here in Acts, in view of the choosing of an apostle, that he should be one who had assembled with them during "all the time in which the Lord Jesus came in and went out among us, beginning from the baptism of John until the day in which he was taken up". The allusion would be to instances of experiences such as we have now in meetings. There was the idea of assembling current amongst the disciples from the beginning; it would suggest they had quiet seasons with the Lord and with one another all the time in which he came in and went out. In coming in and going out amongst the disciples there would be the suggestion with Him of the assembly, which He introduced early; for example in chapter 13. He speaks about a treasure which a man found, and of a pearl which a merchant was seeking and found. It is obvious that Peter had in mind that the Lord found enjoyment amongst His own above anything that judaism could yield. It says in the parable that He found the treasure in the field, and He explains that the field is the world: the Lord was looking at these persons by themselves, so to say, detaching them in His mind from the synagogues. The Lord was accustomed to enter the synagogues and preach in them, but Peter alludes to something outside that -- "assembled with us", he says: we could hardly think of synagogue gatherings as assembling with us.

Rem. There was something in that company that the Lord would find pleasure in, and there is that in which He finds pleasure now.

J.T. That is what I thought. The times of refreshing

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that Peter alluded to later would be apart from the synagogues and the Jewish order of things.

Ques. Does it suggest liberty? I was thinking of the going in and going out in John 10.

J.T. Just so, the disciples would learn how to come in and go out too: the Lord would lead the way in that. The Jewish system was too straitened, too set, for that: it did not afford the liberty that love required. Would you say that?

E.M. Yes, I think so. I was thinking of David: it speaks of him going in and out endearing himself in that way to the men of Israel.

J.T. Yes. We can see that the ordered religion of our times does not afford that liberty.

E.M. Would there be an object in the Lord drawing the disciples a long way away from Jerusalem, with which they had been occupied, to Caesarea Philippi?

J.T. Yes, the further the better. In fact you get the suggestion of going away in chapter 16: it says in verse 4, "He left them and went away", the idea is putting a distance between Himself and the Pharisees and Sadducees.

Rem. The disciples saw the Lord by Himself. Although He went to the synagogue, He really lived in a sphere outside it; they saw Him withdrawing and they knew He was walking outside that.

J.T. Yes they did. We read He went to a garden, as was His custom: even at Jerusalem they must have had those meetings. The last recorded is when He was in Gethsemane and He directed some to sit, and others He took with Him -- He had them under His hand.

Ques. Do we get the thought in Matthew objectively, and are they tested in the Acts as to what they will do when He is not there? He took them out as far as to Bethany; then it is a question of what they will do.

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J.T. Yes. When He was taken up, according to the Acts, they returned and went to the upper room showing they had been instructed in this matter. In the end of the gospel of Luke, they returned to Jerusalem, to the temple, praising and blessing God; but Acts looks more toward the assembly, and is in keeping with Peter's comment on what they had been doing, "assembling", before they went to the upper room -- not to the temple; then we are told who were in that upper room.

E.M. The Lord knew what the Father had effected in the soul of Peter, but would He give the opportunity for that to be brought to light?

J.T. I think so. I believe this method of assembling together had been coming to light before, but now the thing would be confirmed and established, as the foundation in the soul is laid; it was what had been going on before without a name having been given to it. You have the name formally given here in the Lord saying, "I will build my assembly". Their method of assembling together would hardly be regarded as anything fixed yet and could not be until the Lord died and rose, but it was there in principle. When He spoke of building, He had in mind that He would die and rise, and there would be stones, He being the chief corner stone.

Ques. Would not this challenge to the disciples in the Lord's demand as to His own Person, bring out distinctly that they were apart from men generally?

J.T. That is what the Lord had in mind to bring out -- that very fact, for whilst the truth of the Son of God now is current in orthodoxy, the Lord would challenge us as to what we say; if we are governed in our thoughts by the Spirit of God, there will be something in us which is distinct from orthodoxy. You never can get the truth in a spiritual sense in a creed; it is impossible for a creed rightly to present

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the truth. It must be a matter of faith; God never intended it to be otherwise.

Rem. Orthodoxy would be flesh and blood.

J.T. Yes exactly; it is the product very largely of what man can bring about by learning, by religious teaching, university instruction, etc. Philosophy has a great deal to do with the accredited creeds of christendom, far more than we are aware of.

E.M. Is that emphasised in the preceding verses when the Lord rebukes them for their lack of faith, bringing them on to the line of faith in order to apprehend divine thoughts?

J.T. Just so. "And he left them and went away" -- and they were the orthodox men of that day! Then it says, "When his disciples were come to the other side, they had forgotten to take bread. And Jesus said to them, See and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees. And they reasoned among themselves, saying, Because we have taken no bread". Then He says, "How do ye not understand ... ? Then they comprehended that he did not speak of being beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and Sadducees", that is really the orthodox. Not that the Sadducees believed as the Pharisees did, but that is the thing, for you have accredited things today, and they had them then. The disciples were in danger, whilst leaving them, of carrying the accredited doctrines of the Pharisees and Sadducees with them; and I believe, whilst the Lord has separated the brethren during these last days, the doctrines have been carried on.

Rem. All that we have in the assembly is on the principle of revelation, not on the principle of flesh and blood.

J.T. Yes, and on the principle of faith, too: He said, "O ye of little faith".

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Ques. Would taking account of the Lord's movements in going in and out amongst us help us as to these doctrines and preserve us from the Pharisee and Sadducee element?

J.T. I think so. You can understand how His coming in and going out amongst His disciples would correct that. The Lord accepted an invitation to Simon the Pharisee's house and He went in, but there was no liberty there, the atmosphere was not at all suited to Him, but nevertheless He brought the light in: it was a question of adjustment. If Simon the Pharisee had only been ready for it, what an adjustment there would have been. But it is very much like going into the orthodox system now, what can you do? It is fixed, you cannot alter it.

E.M. Would you see another instance in the Lord going into Peter's house -- his wife's mother being sick of fever, feverish conditions?

J.T. That is a very good illustration; what a different house it would have been afterwards! So right through, His coming in and going out would imply adjustment. He would gradually detach them from the Jewish way of thinking.

Rem. The very best estimate of Christ in the religious world comes short of the real thing.

J.T. You can never get a right thought of Christ apart from the Spirit. Divine things are so wonderful! God takes up human terms but He uses them in His own way, and the Lord had in mind in going in and out amongst them to adjust them. Anything they said that was not in accord with Him, He would correct; we have abundance of illustrations of that. The idea of faith is introduced before He questions them as to Himself.

Another thing is the idea of comprehension in verse 12. "Then they comprehended that he did not speak of being beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and Sadducees".

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They have power of comprehension; they would not take up the thought in half measures; they would go all round and see the full force of it; that is a great matter in spiritual things. So when He says, "Who do ye say that I am?". He has brought them up to the point of it: that is, 'you are to be different, whatever other people think or say of Me, you are to be different'. What do you say? The thing is not what they thought, but what they said -- it is current doctrine that is in view.

Ques. Is not that important today?

J.T. Most important, there is no passage more important than this; the question of the Lord's Person is in view, and a right understanding of His Person is essential if we are to touch the assembly.

Rem. So it is of the greatest importance that all our comings together should be in faith.

J.T. That is the thing, always be ready for adjustment.

Ques. Will you say a little more about comprehending? There are things we can apprehend but not comprehend.

J.T. Yes. The assembly is a finite thing, and that is what He is leading up to, but the Person of the Lord is infinite; you cannot compass that as the creeds attempt to do; they attempt more than is possible to the creature.

Rem. So in Ephesians the apostle uses the word "apprehend", Ephesians 3:18.

J.T. Yes, the depth goes beyond what is finite: it refers to Jesus, to what He experienced. You have the breadth and length and height -- those three dimensions are finite; but the fourth, the depth, suggests what belongs to deity. But the heavenly city is a cube with finite measurements.

Rem. So faith would preserve us from becoming fixed.

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J.T. That is the idea. The term "faith" in the beginning meant the system of truth as well as what a person might have in his soul. "Contend earnestly for the faith once delivered to the saints", Jude 3; that is held in the souls of the saints. As we have often heard, for many a day it was not a question of the Scriptures, for they did not have the New Testament Scriptures, but of what was held in the souls of the saints.

Ques. If we take the ground of knowing almost anything, are we not on dangerous ground?

J.T. Well John says, "We know" -- of course that is apostolic, but I think it is characteristic, too.

Rem. I was thinking of that scripture, "if any one think he knows anything, he knows nothing yet as he ought to know it", 1 Corinthians 8:2. The truth is continually expanding.

J.T. That is quite right, but there is the other side; "whereto we have attained", Philippians 3:16; you know something. In the prophets the Lord Himself says to Jehovah that He opened His ear to hear as the instructed; the Lord took that ground. The saints have that potential power or ability; they are instructed to a point, but they need more. We shall know, it says, but we shall "follow on to know", Hosea 6:3 -- that is the position.

Rem. The man in John 9 began with knowing one thing, but he soon got more.

J.T. That is the idea -- we know something: the structure is built up in that way on what we know.

Rem. I suppose what the apostle says is important, we know in part.

J.T. Yes, but we know. Whereas when you come to a fixed system of doctrines there is no progress. There is no room for any; it is fixed.

Ques. Could we expect to get this adjustment in our assemblings even as we are at the present moment?

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J.T. It is a continuous thing. The Holy Spirit being here the Lord is continually adding to it if we are open for it: you get new thoughts as you are ready for them. "They comprehended" -- that is a very strong word -- they comprehended He did not mean mere bread; He meant doctrine. That is the kind of knowledge that is important, so that we can say 'the Lord does not mean that, He means this'. You are fixed in the thing. "Who do men say that I ... am?" What are they saying about Me? But what He had in mind was not merely what place He had in the mind of men, but what they were saying about Him.

Ques. Is it not a very great favour to have a faculty to be able to take in divine thoughts?

J.T. Yes. "If any man desire to practise his will, he shall know concerning the doctrine". There is to be a moral element behind it. So that this passage is extremely important just now; it is a question of what men are saying. Some come more or less near the thought, but none get it apart from the Holy Spirit.

Ques. Should we pay attention to what men say?

J.T. I do not think so; if we do we shall go wrong. "Some, John the baptist" -- what could be more misleading than that? Some are saying things like that now, and worse things. Then it says, "Others, Elias" -- what could be more misleading than that? It is not that these men were deliberately opposed to the Lord, but it is just to bring out what men think and say. Others would say He had a demon; but here it is what men are saying who are not against Him.

Rem. It is more subtle.

J.T. Yes, it is. Sons of light are to take His place and have to be in evidence as He hides Himself. They are persons developed in the thought of light. So that what men were saying -- "John the baptist", "Elias", or "Jeremias or one of the

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prophets" -- any one of them -- shows the impossibility of men, as such, having right thoughts of Christ. There is no thought of a Person come into manhood. It is what we are without the Spirit; there is nothing perfect without the Spirit. They were still really under the law and, although the Lord Jesus came in and was teaching them, yet they had not come into the time of faith. Galatians distinguishes between this and the time of faith when we understand things rightly. They did not understand a Divine Person come into manhood.

Ques. Is that the key to the position, as we apprehend that we are linked up with something new, something from heaven, in manhood?

J.T. That is the position, so as soon as Peter says "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God", the Lord speaks about building the assembly. The Lord is seeking to adjust us constantly that we might come into right relations with Himself. "The Son of the living God" implies resurrection, however little Peter understood it. We see the weakness of the flesh -- "The spirit indeed is willing but the flesh weak". The new state, the state in the Spirit, was not there.

Ques. Do we see in these remarks of Peter that he was not equal to the light he really had, that his light exceeded his faith?

J.T. That is what it is meant to teach us. It is to teach us the great importance of the epistle to the Romans in laying a basis in our souls: "Ye are not in flesh but in Spirit, if indeed God's Spirit dwell in you", Romans 8:9. If I have the Spirit dwelling in me, I have the ability to apprehend divine things.

Ques. Why should Jesus charge His disciples to tell no man that He was the Christ?

J.T. Well. He does not want to impart knowledge to the world that it will use for its own aggrandizement. The parting of the ways had come, and the

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Lord did not intend to augment that which was rejecting Him. Christendom is a whitewashed state of things: terms belonging to us exclusively are taken up by them, and men are advanced by it.

Rem. The need for a creed shows that the truth of the Holy Spirit has been lost.

J.T. Exactly. Timothy says, "Keep, by the Holy Spirit ... the good deposit entrusted", 2 Timothy 1:14, and they attempt to keep it by a creed. The assembly is "the pillar and base of the truth", it is to be held there, and that is by the Spirit.

Ques. With regard to Peter's confession, would what he said here, though really beyond his actual state, confirm that we might be entitled to speak of things beyond our experience provided we were genuine?

J.T. That is true, otherwise we should be extremely limited today. We have to "have an outline of sound words", 2 Timothy 1:13, but we are entitled to deal with it in that way because we are in it to some extent, there is the foundation with us. So the Lord says, "Thou art Peter", there was something there. If there was nothing there, it would be simply like Simon Magus -- "Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter", Acts 8:21; he had no right to say to these things, whereas a person who has the Spirit has a right, he has a footing in divine things.

Rem. Peter's confession in John 6, "Thou art the holy one of God", shows how entirely they were outside all that was orthodox.

J.T. That is the thing. It shows that the element of holiness necessarily enters into christian teaching, you cannot have it rightly otherwise.

Ques. In regard to John 6, had they arrived at it so far objectively?

J.T. I think so: Peter represents the point reached. The Lord says to the twelve, "Will ye also go

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away?" -- there was something there that the Lord could recognise. John's gospel speaks of sons of light. Christ is hidden now from the eyes of men, but sons of light are here, that is, persons who are developed in light, they understand; so that we have throughout John's gospel the different features of light, in the sons of it. The woman of Sychar is a son of light, and each one of the signs brings out a son of light. Peter is a son of light in regard to the testimony; because the Lord spoke to the twelve and Peter was one of them, so he represents that side.

Ques. The Lord says here, "I will build", but in 1 Corinthians 3, we are said to build.

J.T. Well, that has often been discussed, and it is of importance. This is the full thought; it is not, 'I will build the assembly' but "I will build my assembly", to bring out what the Lord has, and will have eternally. He has now in a militant way what stands against the gates of hades. It is invulnerable, "the pillar and base of the truth": that is the full setting and would include all that is stated in Corinthians, as the greater includes the less. Paul treats of a local service and persons locally having part. He points out that every man is to take heed how he builds: it is not how another builds, but how I build. Paul says, "As a wise architect I have laid the foundation" -- I have done the thing well: not that he is eulogising himself, but he brings out the great feature that things must be done well. He did it that way, he did it in wisdom, let every one see that in his little bit he does it that way.

Ques. You spoke just now about the woman of Sychar being a son of light. She goes into the city and says, "Is not he the Christ?" John 4:29. How much further does this confession of Peter's go than that? It is revealed to Peter by the Father.

J.T. Well, it is one thing here, "Thou art the

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Christ, the Son of the living God", the woman did not go that far, nor did she indeed undertake to say anything beyond, "Is not he the Christ?" -- the evidence was that He told her all things that ever she did: she is basing it on her own experience. The way she became a son of light, the evidence of it, is I think that she left her waterpot; a very simple matter but there is a great deal in it as showing what she apprehended, what she knew.

Rem. "Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?" 1 John 5:5.

J.T. Yes, the two things go together in Peter's confession. It is one thing to work things out in your own soul by the light that comes to you, and it is another thing to have a revelation.

Ques. Do you see the two thoughts in what Paul says, "That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection", Philippians 3:10, and then, "I know whom I have believed", 2 Timothy 1:12?

J.T. Quite so. In saying, "I know whom I have believed", he shows how he advanced in the knowledge of the Lord: but with Peter here, he already had some evidence of the Lord. They had said earlier that He was the Son of God, that was from the standpoint of their experience which may not be always reliable, but what is of the foundation is the revelation. The foundation is not what I have discovered by my experience, that would be too small a matter, but you have something from God's side, and you have it in its fulness. Some flash of light must have come into Peter's soul at the moment, that would give him a light of Christ no one could ever have from his own experience. Assembly formation is on the principle of revelation.

Rem. We must not base too much on our own experience, though we can thank God for it.

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J.T. Yes, but for foundation to build, we must have revelation; but there is the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the assembly. In all ministry according to God you really begin with what you have obtained by experience or instruction by the Spirit, but as you proceed in ministry, the principle of revelation comes in, and that is what gives it authority; the thing comes out so that there is certainty. The secret of that is the Holy Spirit has had opportunity in the ministry.

Rem. I think the young brethren are in danger of being misled by experiences and accounts of experiences which are very interesting in themselves, but they are not establishing in the sense that the truth is establishing.

J.T. No. The ministry is ministered by the Spirit, but the minister begins with something that he has.

Rem. We may expect to learn quickly if we are on right lines and in subjection to the Lord.

J.T. Something comes in on the line of revelation, not that there are any new things now, but there are new features.

Rem. The truth of the Son of God is not dependent on resurrection, though it is declared, according to Romans 1, by resurrection.

J.T. Yes, from the outset it was there: "This is my beloved Son".

E.M. I think you have sought to call attention to the greatness of the incarnation: are we not defective in our thoughts in regard to the greatness of it?

J.T. I think we are very defective. So God surrounded it with indications of its greatness in the communications to Mary and to Joseph; and then in what comes out in the Lord when He was twelve; then when He began to be about thirty. He was praying, and the announcement from heaven is there to Himself and to others. The fact of His sonship is there, it did not await resurrection; the word in

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Romans 1 is "marked out"; that is an undeniable thing for any being, whether he be divine or a believer or an infidel. The devil recognises it, he is bound to, this Person is marked out.

I thought chapter 26 furnishes right feelings. We may speak about the revelation and the building, but apart from right feelings we are morally out of it, and that is what chapter 26 supplies. The way into the assembly is through the Lord's Supper, surrounded by those holy feelings of the Lord, and what should correspond in us. In the Acts the spiritual side comes out, the Lord would show them what the thing is spiritually, how we are to be in the assembly spiritually, how we are to apprehend the Lord in it. How important it is to have right feelings, not to be in the assembly merely in our minds, with high expressions that we have learned perhaps from others, but in it feelingly with a sense of the sufferings: for as soon as the Lord brings out the question of His Person and the building, He speaks about suffering. He says, in Matthew 16:21, "From that time Jesus began to shew to his disciples that he must go away to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and the third day be raised". Then in chapter 17 it says, "And while they abode in Galilee, Jesus said to them, The Son of man is about to be delivered up into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and the third day he shall be raised up", verses 22, 23. We might think the Jews did it, according to Matthew 16:21, but according to chapter 17, verse 22 men did it; we cannot escape that, we are men; the whole race is brought into it, first in what the Jews did, then in what men did. Then in chapter 26, He is surrounded by murderers; it says, "It came to pass when Jesus had finished all these sayings, he said to his disciples, Ye know that after two days the passover takes place, and the Son of man is delivered

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up to be crucified. Then the chief priests and elders of the people were gathered together to the palace of the high priest who was called Caiaphas, and took counsel together in order that they might seize Jesus by subtlety and kill him", verses 1 - 4. Then Judas betrays Him. That is what surrounds the Lord's supper.

Ques. Is the woman in Simon's house a sample saint who was swayed by holy emotions?

J.T. Yes, I think she is the exponent of the light that governs the position. If it were Mary of Bethany, we can understand how beautifully it fits. She anointed the Lord in Simon the leper's house, that is, in a place of reproach, the house of the leper. There this woman shines; she represents the light that governs that position, the time of suffering; she anointed His head.

Ques. As we come together to break bread, do we come in the spirit of acknowledging the way the Lord went in these aspects that are mentioned?

J.T. I think so. I think we ought to be full of the suffering side at the Lord's supper. The woman here is saying by her action that she is thoroughly identified with this Man. The whole air is charged with murder against Him, but she is with Him, and intelligently she anoints His head; she apprehends the wisdom that is in Him. He is going to evolve a system of worship and service for God, when all this murderous state will have passed away forever.

Rem. Paul says, "I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you. That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread", 1 Corinthians 11:23. We would come together with the sense of that in our souls.

J.T. Yes, betrayal involves the most poignant suffering. Then the eating is to build up a constitution such as shines in this woman; she anointed His head. "A bone of him shall not be broken";

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He is going through; but going through in resurrection. All that is in Him comes out in resurrection.

Rem. So that "as they were eating, Jesus took bread", Matthew 26:26.

J.T. Yes, it is a question of eating, for the point is to build up a constitution capable of eating this and of going through this.

Ques. What is the connection between this and the mount of Olives?

J.T. I think the instruction is that they emerge from judaism. Luke tells us that at night He went to the mount of Olives; the mount of Olives was His retreat; so that I suppose here it means that we emerge from one setting into another. That is the point in view in Matthew and Mark, there is power to get out of the religious setting of things. As it is said of Dan, "Dan is a young lion; he shall spring forth from Bashan", Deuteronomy 33:22. There is power in the soul.

Ques. Is that why the Lord says "Whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it", Matthew 16:25.

J.T. Quite so. Power in the soul is the great thing in Matthew, the opposition is so great, so there is the necessity of eating. Then they went to the mount of Olives. In singing the hymn they were in victory, and in power to get out of one position and into another one.

Ques. In the passage in Acts 1, does "assembled with them" suggest that God's end is reached?

J.T. I think so. The Lord is now restful in resurrection, He has His own, and He is outside the temple and the whole Jewish system.

Rem. His name is Emmanuel. God with us, that seems to be realised in the assembly -- He assembled with them.

J.T. Yes.

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SPIRITUAL INTELLIGENCE IN THE ASSEMBLY

Matthew 16:1 - 18

J.T. It is in mind that we might consider the assembly from the standpoint of needed intelligence. The idea of spiritual intelligence is greatly stressed in the passages of Scripture which treat of the assembly. It seems to be the highest development of God's thought in creation and intelligence is called for; indeed, the word revelation is connected with it, as in the end of Romans where the believer meets it in the ordinary course of his education; it is by the revelation of something hidden, called the mystery, now made known to the apostles and prophets. And so in Ephesians the apostle also speaks of it as being by revelation to him. He prays there "that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, would give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the full knowledge of him", Ephesians 1:17 and moreover that the Father might strengthen them "in the inner man; that Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all saints, what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height, and to know the love of Christ", Ephesians 3:16 - 19. So here it is by revelation; that is to say, it is a state of spiritual ability to receive things in that way, by the spirit of wisdom and revelation. And so Matthew, in leading up to the great subject, the assembly, records how the Lord had challenged His own: "Have ye understood all these things?" He had said much to them, and they answered "Yea Lord", Matthew 13:51, and he said, "Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old". That is to

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say, he is a person of wealth, able to contribute in the assembly. It is from that point of view I thought we might look on the subject linking it on with the Lord's Supper in scriptures that are intimate to us all. The apostle begins the subject in Corinthians by addressing the saints there as intelligent, "I speak as to intelligent persons". And so here the Lord brings in the thought of the leaven, counting on their understanding; so that instruction relative to the assembly assumes a knowledge already there, and if it be not there He rebukes us, as He did here. "How is it that ye do not understand?" It is for each one of us to ask ourselves if there is anything, 'How is it that I do not understand?' The Lord is aiming at bringing about assembly conditions and looks for results in the gatherings of His people. He has become man in order that the most possible might accrue to God. It is a question of bringing in things for God -- of whom, through whom and for whom are all things. He says, "My assembly" and He looks for us to understand what He has in mind in it. It is for Himself, to be presented to Himself, and then in His hand it is for God; it is that in which God is glorified and ministered to.

Ques. Why have you the introduction of the leaven here?

J.T. To call attention to the danger of leaven being carried over by us as we leave the human organisations around us. Believers on Him were in danger of carrying over the leaven of the current religious systems represented in the Pharisees and Sadducees. The same thing applies today, the current religious organisations have leaven and we may leave them but carry the leaven with us. It says the Lord "left them and went away", meaning it was a thorough departure. But the disciples might carry leaven with them.

A.N. I wondered whether what hinders a good

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many of us from the apprehension of these things is that we look at a thing in relation to ourselves and our own needs, instead of seeing that it is something of divine intention, what there is for God?

J.T. That is very suggestive.

Ques. Is that the idea of leaven?

J.T. It is the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees; that is what He enjoins against here.

Ques. Is it connected with what is material? They were looking for a sign.

J.T. Well, it would be partly that; it would be what would be visible. It says they understood it to be the doctrine; it would be connected with the doctrine. The sign would mean that we are not walking by faith, we are walking by sight.

Ques. Is the key rightly to understand His own Person?

J.T. Well, that is the key to it, but what leads up to that great matter is what we should notice. Verses 1 to 12 are preliminary to the subject of the assembly. The subject of the assembly properly appears at Caesarea Philippi. That paragraph is introduced by the word "but". It is not the "but" of contrast, it is the "but" of importance. There is often something more, some great matter that comes out of what He is speaking about. The preliminary word is most necessary if we are to enter the next paragraph, the challenge as to who He is, this matter of the doctrine of the Pharisees and Sadducees which we may be in danger of carrying over with us, that is to say the cherishing of natural thoughts, the doctrines, the rules, the spirit, we might add and the way of doing things. I may come out of it but I may carry the spirit and the doctrine of the thing with me and therefore I am unable in my soul to get on to the ground of the assembly.

Ques. Would that be the concern of the apostle in writing to the Colossians? Are the Pharisees connected

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with the legal side and the Sadducees with the intellectual side? I am alluding to chapter 2 and thought that the disciples might be hindered in following the Lord at this point by the allowance of these things.

J.T. The Sadducees allude to philosophy; the schools are full of that sort of thing now, what man has brought in out of his own brain. Then here is ceremonialism, that is the Pharisee.

These chapters from the beginning of the thirteenth are all leading up to the assembly. They are steps or degrees, steps up, and throughout you find this thought stressed, the thought of spiritual intelligence -- whether you can understand things. And these verses are particularly so because the Lord mentioned the thought of leaven. He had already mentioned it in chapter thirteen, so that it ought not to be a new word to them, and so it humbles us, for things are brought up, time and again amongst us and the brethren have not noticed them. They have been passed over, either deliberately or inadvertently. And so here they were immediately natural in their thoughts. A loaf of bread, how miserable to think that the Lord Jesus was occupying them with a loaf of bread. They had gone into the town of Samaria to buy bread at one time and missed a lot. It does not say He sent them. They all went. Why did not one of them go? They all went and left Him. But the Lord has a moral question in view. It is questioners who get the light -- 'What does He mean?'

Ques. What is the significance of Jonas? Has that to do with our education?

J.T. It is His death -- three days and three nights -- that includes the Sabbath. "As Jonas was in the belly of the great fish three days and three nights, thus shall the Son of man be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights", Matthew 12:40. That was the ending of a dispensation you know,

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that was the termination of the old dispensation.

Ques. Is that what we have to come to before we get to the idea of this leaven?

J.T. That is right, we have ended something. When you come out from something it is a thorough break, a thorough separation and if we do not understand the sign of Jonah we cannot go on to this.

Rem. And you are not obligated to anything of the old system.

J.T. It would call attention to that scripture, the Lord's Person being brought into it, "in him dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily", Colossians 2:9. It means that it is brought into our range. It calls attention to His greatness in chapter 1, and in chapter 2 it is brought within our range. It is brought in the Person, the lowliest of men; that is a very important thing. "In him dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily" -- we are contemplating in Him all that God is, as in Him, towards us and we are in Him towards God. So that we do not need to go outside of Christ for anything, all is there.

A.N. I think that is helpful, that it is an entirely new order of things. There is nothing of the old order that is going to be any help, indeed it will be destructive if we bring it in.

Rem. The disciples had gone to the other side -- the bread or the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees is of no use on the other side.

J.T. Yes, that is what it says, "When his disciples were come to the other side, they had forgotten to take bread. Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees". The idea of bread was in their minds, and He brings in this thought. What do you say about that?

Van. K. That is not the kind of intelligence upon which the truth of the assembly would be built.

J.T. Then it says -- they reasoned amongst themselves

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-- we never get anywhere by reasoning among ourselves, for we leave Him out by that. When the Lord came down from the mount of transfiguration there was a tumult and they were reasoning amongst themselves, and a man brought his little boy and they could not help him. He says, "I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him". Well, could you wonder? When they were on the mount Jesus alone was with them. You have the nucleus of the assembly in that -- Jesus alone with themselves. But they themselves are perfectly helpless and He reproached them, saying "O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you?" Matthew 17:17.

Ques. Have we not, in the feedings of the five thousand and the four thousand, the full meeting of our need? So we should be with One who would meet all our needs, and lead us on to that which is positive, that which He would bring in?

J.T. He says, "Do ye not yet understand, neither remember the five loaves of the five thousand, and how many baskets ye took up? neither the seven loaves of the four thousand, and how many baskets ye took up?" The two miracles of feeding are brought in here, it is a question of resource; they were occupied with what they had neglected, what they had not brought; seeing how untrustworthy they were, they would forget even such an essential as food. But He calls attention to these miracles, to the resources there are for us; the first is in chapter 14 where He looked up to heaven, giving thanks. He looks up to heaven, meaning it is a question of what is in heaven. He is in heaven now and it means infinite resource for us. On the second occasion He does not lift up His eyes to heaven -- the allusion being to the Spirit, that the Spirit is here. The feeding of the four thousand brings in the resources in the Spirit -- we make

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room for the Spirit. The feeding of the five thousand, and the lifting up of His eyes to heaven, indicate what is heavenly, what may come from heaven by prayer and solicitation. The seven baskets allude to the spiritual side, the twelve baskets to the administration from heaven. The spiritual side goes on right to the end of the dispensation, the presence of the Holy Spirit amongst us. That there is no limit to the power is the point He brings in here. They forgot to take bread; are we not liable to forget what is essential? He calls attention to the feeding of so many. If we understand these two signs we shall never be at a loss.

Rem. That is very helpful. 'Lifting up His eyes to heaven' would remind us of the present position of the Lord on high as our resource and the other case would indicate what we have in the Spirit down here. These are resources indeed.

J.T. Our prayer meetings should be characterised by the lifting up our eyes to heaven spiritually, not naturally. We find that God does exceeding abundantly for us above all that we ask or think according to the power that works in us. There is nothing new coming down, it is down here, the resources are here in the Spirit, the "power that is in us", but they come in through prayer, otherwise we could sit in our parlours and let God act.

Ques. Is there significance in the fact that it is hand baskets, not baskets?

J.T. The significance is that it is the larger vessel for the Spirit, the numeral suggesting perfection, seven fillings.

Ques. Is all this leading up to the foundation of the assembly?

J.T. Yes, that is it so that the Lord says in verse 11, "How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the

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Sadducees?" Now they were concerned about bringing; it is not bringing that is to be enjoyed, it is that I understand things thoroughly. We never use 'understand' in regard to what is infinite, only in connection with something within our power to grasp.

Then He says, "Who do men say that I the Son of man am?" which implies that He is now on another level. I suppose it is a gentile position, it is a combined name; Caesarea and Philippi have their own significance in the world, in the history of the gentile monarchies. The coast has an allusion to the world, it is a wide thought. He is now leading up to something greater than the matter of leaven. This is a question of His own Person. How important it is to divest yourself of every distracting thing if you are challenged with regard to the truth of the Lord's Person. Anything that beclouds your mind should be judged if you are to face the great transcending fact of who this Person is. No doubt that is what we are confronted with today, the Lord's Person.

Rem. The leaven applied to this refers to the things that are handed down, come down with us. But then there is the old leaven of malice and wickedness, it is ever present in the natural man.

J.T. It is an important thing, most important, that our eyes should be right. Mark, before he brings in this, opens the man's eyes at Bethesda; it is a question of vision being clear. What are you saying about Him? The Lord assumes that the disciples are conversant with what is current. We want to know what is being said about Jesus. There is a bedlam of voices about Him, the drift being to apostasy and blasphemy. Aside from the knowledge of Christ, where are we? It must be the rock upon which everything stands -- "On this rock I will build my assembly". So that there are graded apprehensions

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of the matter abroad in the world -- that is, the first say John the baptist, the second Elias, and others Jeremias or one of the prophets. They are graded thoughts, some greater than others, but in no case is He considered as more than man, a great man, of course, but not more than man.

Rem. I was thinking it is remarkable how slow we are to take in any fresh light in regard to the Person of Christ. There are many of us who are quite conversant with what is past, but we ought to be open for every little new thought about Christ.

Ques. Do you think this section has the gentile in view?

J.T. I think so; it is the assembly from the standpoint of Paul's ministry, not as at Pentecost; it is its universal bearing that is in view -- the gentiles are brought in. But it is what people are saying, and the question is, am I thinking any different from them? You say 'John the baptist was a very great man, and anyone that says Jesus was John the baptist was not much behind'. But ask John the baptist what he thinks about Jesus; he said, "In the midst of you stands, whom ye do not know, he who comes after me", and then he says, "who takes a place before me, because he was before me". It was not hidden from John the baptist.

Ques. Is this a test that the Lord brings home to each one of our hearts?

J.T. That is the idea, what is in your heart? Although we are orthodox and believe in John, what is our apprehension in our minds? The Lord is not asking what the Bible says, indeed it has said enough about Him to show who He was. The first chapter of Hebrews is most beautiful, pointing up to Christ and it is all taken from the Old Testament. What is my real apprehension of Christ and what am I saying? It is a thing to be spoken of. The Lord was really leading up to something different, that is, a transaction

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with the Father. However the knowledge comes about, whether it is from the scriptures, or whether it is through a transaction with the Father, it is a matter of inward revelation really in principle, for the Father gives us, "the spirit of wisdom and revelation", Ephesians 1:17.

A.N. You get the principle in Ephesians 1while Paul is on the line of revelation he prays that the eyes of their heart might be opened that they might know what is the hope of His calling. It is not to be mere intelligence gathered from the Scriptures, but it is to be known in their hearts.

J.T. Yes, so that whilst they had known Him as Son, for He was announced and greeted as Son by the Father earlier, this is something different. The Lord is dealing with a transaction with the Father as to His Person. You have to get it in that way. It is the state of your soul. Anyone can say today Jesus is the Son of God, in an orthodox way, because it is taught in the catechism who the Lord is, but the Lord is not dealing with that here. As soon as Peter says, "Thou art the Christ the Son of the living God". He says, "flesh and blood has not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in the heavens". That takes you outside the range of orthodox religion.

Ques. Is the revelation of the Father direct or through the Scriptures?

J.T. Well, of course, the point is to get the thought here, the ground we are on, that we are approaching the high level of exclusive spirituality. The Lord emphasizes it in this way; He says it is a revelation from the Father. Flesh and blood is ruled out; it is on the high ground of the assembly, it is not to be learned from others; it is a matter of spiritual instinct. Peter says, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God", that is what the Lord is waiting for. That is what all this has in view. He says,

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"Blessed art thou. Simon Bar-jona, for flesh and blood has not revealed it to thee". The Lord is adding to what the Father has done. He is taking up the material that is there. "Thou art Peter" -- his status is changed -- "and on this rock will I build my assembly". So that now we have the foundation of the assembly.

A.N. I think that is very helpful, that the Father has revealed it. "I also say" is really on the principle, "My Father worketh hitherto and I work", John 5:17.

J.T. The direct transaction is in verse 17; the Lord goes on to say "I also, I say unto you"; that is something presented to you and is carried on by ministry now.

Ques. Can we distinguish as to what we know in our minds and what has been revealed by the Father?

J.T. Well, I think we ought to be able to, there is helpful instruction in Numbers 15, where a man comes to God to worship and brings a lamb. He has to bring with it a certain, carefully weighed quantity of fine flour, and oil, and wine for a drink offering. Then if he brings a ram he has to enlarge all these things, the fine flour, and oil and drink offering. If he brings a bullock it is still larger. I mean to infer that the grades are from the lamb upwards, all the accompaniments must be in proportion, that is to say, it is a question of my stature. I must not bring to God merely what I learn from others. The other things must be there in proportion, the fine flour, the oil and wine. Every worshipper must be balanced as entirely after Christ, and what he presents he is in keeping with. What God is looking for is my stature, how much I have grown in relation to Christ. All must come to this, whatever I have learned by teaching from others,

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all must come down to this: what is my measure, what features mark me?

Rem. There was a time when Peter did not know what to say. Do you think there are times in our history when we need intelligence as to what to say?

J.T. Well, just so. You mean on the mount, in the next chapter. Peter did not know what to say, but here he did know what to say. The whole formation of the assembly was in the mind of divine Persons at this juncture, and here he knows immediately and the Lord expounds how it was that he knew.

Ques. Is there any thought as to the building of Eve?

J.T. You mean the word "build" is first found in connection with her? That is what we were saying this morning. Peter says, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God", that would mean that He is the One that does everything for God, He is anointed by God for it. In His every word, whatever is required, He will do all the pleasure of God. Well now, what will He do with the assembly? He calls it His here, "My assembly"; what will He do with it? "The Christ" implies His ministerial power and comprises the thought of the minister of the holy places, because the priest is also anointed. What will the Priest do with the assembly? The word "The Christ" would imply that He would use in holiness this assembly that He has. As Son of man He takes up His own relations with man, but as Son of God He takes up the things of divine intention. As David says to Solomon, "Jehovah has chosen thee to build a house", 1 Chronicles 28:10. David was not to build, Solomon was to do it, "Thy son", so that the building by the Son is to be according to the Father. Christ is the anointed One to carry out that service. All the material is brought in, but the foundation is a holy spiritual thing from this point of view. As

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we sit down in the assembly we should be thinking of all this, what the Christ will do with the assembly. What will He do with the assembly? "Glorify thy Son", He says, "that thy Son may glorify thee", John 17:1. How is He doing that? He will do it in the assembly.

Rem. Can you help us on what would lead us intelligently to take account of what Christ is forming down here in relation to what you have in John the baptist in looking on Jesus. As John comes He first points out the Person in relation to His work, and then as the gathering centre as bringing in new ground.

J.T. He looked at Him as He walked: it is the Lamb of God there, the sacrificial thought, but also the thought of intrinsic worth. It is a larger word than in Revelation, it is more maturity there, it is how He walked. He was attractive and delightful to John and became the gathering centre. But then they seek Him, the Teacher, "where abidest thou?" He says "Come and see". You will get more there than in His walk. Where He abides is His home, that would all lead up to what we are speaking of. In John 1 the Lamb there is a larger thought than in Revelation. In Revelation He is there as a sufferer. The word "Rabbi" in the minds of the followers would mean that they needed teaching, but in the end of the gospel of John it is, "Rabboni", that is "My Teacher". Mary would say, 'there is no other teacher for me'. It is exclusive, it is Colossians really; you do not want any other. It is a question of "the Christ"; 'what will He do with the assembly?' should enter into our minds as we sit down in the assembly. How is He glorifying the Father? He lifted up His eyes to heaven and said, "Glorify thy Son, that thy Son may glorify thee". In what way could He glorify the assembly, this thing which He had built? As you get on to the

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great height, keep to it, do not drop down to the bottom of Olivet when you have reached the top. When you reach the summit you worship there. When David reached the top of Olivet he worshipped (2 Samuel 15:32). We get the power -- the power is in movement.

Rem. You mean if we get on the level of worship to the Father, we should keep on that level?

J.T. If the hymn book was written by one who was a literal minister of the sanctuary, he would put the hymns to the Father all together, but we should not like that, we should not be told what to sing, we do not need that. We do not need a prayer book, we have intelligence. I think room should be left in these things for the intelligence of the saints.

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UNION WITH CHRIST

Genesis 2:21 - 25; Ephesians 5:29 - 33

J.T. The passages treat of what is called "union", which is a subject that is, perhaps, less understood than any other feature of the assembly.

J.S. Why so?

J.T. Well, it is a very exalted feature of the truth, peculiarly spiritual and presented in type before sin entered into the world. This chapter in Genesis is before sin entered into the world.

A.F.M. Would that show that the truth of union is an eternal thought, going right through?

J.T. I think that is the way it stands. That is the way the truth stands in the Scriptures, that the type coming in before sin came, in, would show that it was a primary thought. There are primary thoughts with God, and provisional thoughts. Provisional thoughts come out to meet the exigencies that arise consequent upon sin's being here. Primary thoughts are not dependent on the action of sin. They must go through, and the existence of sin and its action subserve the primary thought. God makes His primary thoughts to work out in that way, but they stand by themselves.

A.N.W. In 1 Corinthians 11, the apostle makes the statement that man was not made for the woman, but woman for the man. I suppose that runs very close to union, does it not?

J.T. It does.

Ques. Is what we have been considering, such as the covenant and priesthood, provisional?

J.T. These are all provisional things. This is a primary thought that is to subsist eternally, going through the many developments that have arisen from the existence of sin and causing them to be subservient.

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C.A.M. Perhaps the reason this is so slightly understood, as you were saying, is because most of our lessons are learned out of the lesson book of provisional things, do you not think?

J.T. I think that is right. We are born in sin, so that we have to learn things in that way; we are not born in innocency. What came in before sin, is obviously a divine thought that is to subsist. It is worked out in detail in connection with the exigencies of sin in this world. God meeting them as they arose. He did not just meet them; He carried through His own thoughts in meeting them.

A.F.M. In spite of the ruin that had come in, which is very remarkable.

W.G.T. Is there any suggestion of union in the gospels?

J.T. Well, this scripture is quoted there. The Lord quotes this scripture in Matthew 19 in a very forceful way "and the two shall be one flesh ... What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate". One flesh is what is alluded to. That is not unity, but union, those two becoming one.

J.T.Jr. That is the thought in Levi, is it not? His name means "joined".

J.T. Well, that is not quite so strong a word; still, it is united, meaning that he was to be united to Aaron in his service; that he would be, as it were, an integral part of the priesthood for service.

W.B-w. Does the word come from the verse in Ephesians 5, united as one?

J.T. Yes; it is a word not found in scriptures as a word, but the truth of it is there -- one flesh is what is meant.

A.N.W. Is it not important to understand what you were saying, that the thought of unity is not union?

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J.T. Well, it precedes union. If a man and woman are to be married, they ought to be united. They ought to be of one mind beforehand; they ought to agree generally: but union is a greater thought; so, in the assembly, the unity precedes union.

A.N.W. I was referring to the scriptural doctrine as in connection with ourselves, rather than the thought of union?

J.T. That is right, but do you not think what enters into union and becomes Christ, as it were, must be united before; so that Romans and Corinthians precede the thought of union. The saints are brought together in unity.

Rem. That is where the provisional subserves the great thoughts and the counsels of God -- unity, in a sense, as provisional, over against what is disunited.

J.T. Yes; we were disunited. The Jew and the gentile, for instance, most generally are; so that Romans brings out that we are one body in Christ. "One body in Christ" is a status that no other body has, and Romans does not go beyond that, but Corinthians does. It gives us one body by the Spirit, so also is the Christ, which word really includes union -- "so also is the Christ". It touches the idea as near as you can get in Corinthians, for in "the Christ", you cannot very well leave out the idea of the Lord as head of the united body; and while it is barely there, the thought is there. We are all baptised in the power of one spirit into one body.

A.F.M. Would that be something like what is said of Adam and Eve? He called their name Adam -- the one title or name covering the two.

J.T. Yes; I think that expresses "so also is the Christ" in Corinthians; although, I suppose, it is safe to just make it the body, but how can it be a complete thing without the head? I mean, you

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must, in your mind, think of the head. Ephesians and Colossians supply the head.

F.H.L. Is it in view of the breakdown in what is provisional that it is referred to as a "great mystery"?

J.T. Well, I think it was a mystery before. Genesis 2 is a mystery -- how a man and his wife were one; although two individuals, they are one flesh.

G.MacP. So it is said to be hidden in God before the ages of time?

J.T. Yes.

F.H.L. I follow what you mean, but I wish you would say a word more. While remaining a mystery in a sense, yet it is understandable to the intelligence.

J.T. Well, it is; and yet it is doubtful whether it is understandable to any save those that are in it. I doubt very much whether the thing is grasped save by those who are in it.

Rem. It says "the love of the Christ which surpasses knowledge" (Ephesians 3:19) as if it is a known thing; yet unknown as far as writing in a book is concerned.

J.T. It is like many other things, and peculiarly so that one has to be in the position to which the truth applies in order to understand it. So it is outside the range of others.

T.H. Does not the truth help us in relation to Leah and Jacob? She goes through the difficulties; and then she says, Now my husband will be united to me, in connection with Simeon and Levi.

J.T. I think that helps.

A.R.S. "To make known the mystery of His will" -- would that help? There is a certain class to which it can be made known. The apostle was going to do that, was he not?

J.T. Well, that is a similar thought but this is the

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mystery of His will as head of all things in Christ. That is another thing. But this is a great mystery -- this particular phase. The church is a mystery in different phases. It is, properly speaking, the mystery, but this particular phase is an important one -- a great mystery.

A.P.T. Priscilla and Aquila had a good idea of union, did they not? It says they staked their neck for Paul.

J.T. It was one neck, you mean, not necks. I think that helps. They were so thoroughly one in their movements.

W.G.T. In chapter 3 he speaks about the Ephesians, that when they read this they would know how well taught he was in the mystery. The very writing of the epistle is to give us a knowledge of the mystery.

J.T. You mean that is the intent of the epistle to the Ephesians; yes.

H.E. Would you say that the culmination of unity would be in Revelation: the Spirit and the bride say, "Come".

J.T. That is one voice; quite. But we have to grasp the idea of the Man, and know there is no such thing as union between the saints and the Spirit. The Spirit is the bond of it. He is a divine Person unincarnate. We have to grasp the idea of incarnation of the Man; how we are to be one flesh with Him -- "bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh", Genesis 2:23. That is a mystery; you cannot get it otherwise. It has to be grasped spiritually.

A.R. That includes all the saints in your mind.

J.T. Yes; in the full thought.

A.N.W. You do not place union before unity, do you?

J.T. Unity precedes from our side.

A.R.S. "Shall two walk together except they be agreed?" Amos 3:3.

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J.T. That is unity; that must precede union. How can disunited material or persons be fit to be united in Christ? How can they? There must be unity in the most absolute sense if we want to be with Him, "of his flesh, and of his bones", Ephesians 5:30.

E.B. Would you say the assembly could only come to light after the incarnation?

J.T. It could only come to light concretely after the death and resurrection and exaltation of Christ. It is after the Holy Spirit came down that the assembly is formed, not before. The idea of it was there. The individuals that were to form it primarily were there, but the thing itself did not exist until the Holy Spirit came down and united the one hundred and twenty. They were there in perfect unity. You have them altogether alike, so as to be morally equal to be united.

Rem. In that connection, say something more about the assembly viewed in this light as a product of the death of Christ.

J.T. Well, it is what comes out of Christ.

Ques. But not as having had previous history, for instance?

J.T. It is just what comes out of Him, viewed not as the Sin-bearer, but as having been in the state of death; He was actually in the state of death as Adam was figuratively. Why He got into it is not the point, but He was in it, and having come out of it, the assembly comes out with Him. It is "curiously wrought in the lower parts of the earth", Psalm 139:15.

J.T. In Genesis 2, we see that the woman is built. I suppose you have that thought carried forward in the gospels: "On this rock I will build my assembly" (Matthew 16:18), and then in Acts 2?

J.T. Yes, quite.

A. Pf. Why is the marriage of the Lamb only mentioned at the end of Revelation? There is union now with Christ, is there not?

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J.T. His marriage is only a celebration of what already exists. It is not like ordinary marriages. In the ordinary sense, union does not exist before marriage takes place; but with Christ, it exists before the marriage takes place; the relationship of marriage exists. So you get no celebration of marriage with any of the Old Testament saints. The union is there, but no celebration. It is the Lamb's wife, but union is there, which is different from anything in the ordinary course of things; so that there is no celebration of marriage with Isaac, Joseph, Abraham, Jacob or David. That is left out. We have to keep the type in mind. This is all figurative of what exists today, and the marriage ceremony is after the marriage of the Lamb has come, "has come" -- "and his wife" -- not his bride, but his wife. The wife is there.

C.A.M. We have to keep the types in mind; otherwise, our minds will travel the wrong way in this wonderful subject. You helpfully remarked on this idea of the Man; that is the first consideration.

J.T. That is the first idea. You must grasp the thought of incarnation. It is a great thought to get hold of, to begin with the incarnation.

J.S. So that Eve, as we see here, had no previous history; and the minute she is formed, she is brought to the man.

J.T. That is what we have to get at in this inquiry -- how it is that the assembly, seen eternally as the bride of Christ, comes; that is, how she is presented in relation to eternity -- the "bride adorned for her husband", Revelation 21:2. That is the first thing mentioned in that chapter, but the wife is mentioned in Revelation 19:7.

W. B-w. She is the wife before she is the bride.

J.T. She is -- a most remarkable thing! She is the bride eternally; so she is seen as "the bride, the Lamb's wife", Revelation 21:9. It says earlier in that

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chapter "as a bride adorned for her husband".

W. B-w. How do you account for Paul's saying, "I have espoused you unto one man", 2 Corinthians 11:2. It looks as if he did that in his day.

J.T. Well, it was an application of this great thought, but it does not go beyond espousal there. It is not the wife relationship. It is to maintain chastity; that is the point there: but the wife is in Revelation, and that is worked out from Ephesians.

G.MacP. Does the deep sleep that fell upon Adam correspond to Christ loving the assembly, Ephesians 5:25?

J.T. Well, you cannot say that Adam loved his wife, because although God had said, "It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helpmate, his like", you cannot think of him loving that yet; it was an abstraction, but it was not an abstraction that Christ found in the disciples, as they presented themselves to Him whilst here. He speaks about the pearl, and the treasure hid. He found the pearl, and hence there was something concrete there to give Himself for.

C.A.M. It seems to be one of the most wonderful things in Scripture. It would appear as if in His life here upon earth, thoughts came to Him that we can say with reverence had never been in His holy mind before. Would that be right?

J.T. I think in a way it would be right -- "having found". He was seeking and He found. So the thing came to Him. Instead of the Jewish remnant, this wonderful thing came into His mind. They were more than the Jewish remnant to Him.

A.N.W. Why did John the Baptist get a glimpse of Him as the Bridegroom, and what made him think of the bride?

J.T. I do not think his thoughts went beyond Israel's relation. Of course, we can put more into it now; even in the figure in Matthew 22, the bride is

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not mentioned. It is just a marriage for the son. The Spirit does not go so far as to speak about the bride, and yet there must have been one, but you can see how the Spirit of God views these things.

Ques. In Genesis 2, why does Jehovah Elohim come into it so strongly rather than the man himself?

J.T. Well, it is the Covenant-God. It is Jehovah Elohim. You will find this title more in Genesis 2 and 3 than perhaps in the whole of the rest of Scripture; for it is to bring out the covenant affections of God, as it were, with man. "Man" is the word.

J.S. In chapter 1, it is just God.

J.T. Yes, and in relation to man, you get Jehovah.

Ques. Is there any indication that it was in the mind of God before time, for instance?

J.T. I think so. The two titles, or combined title, would mean that, because affections are brought into this thing. He has this wonderful creature before Him this time, in chapter 2. What he must have been to God! because He would think of Christ; man was the figure of Him that was to come. So wonderful is this noble creature to God, that God would do anything for him, and therefore it is not good that he should be alone. It is Jehovah Elohim, it is God in his affection for this creature doing what He can for him.

F.H.L. If we see man standing in his greatness, is it not part of the mystery that he should require a helpmate?

J.T. That is the way to approach it. We have Adam formed and set in the garden, as if he was growing in the mind of God, growing more and more His delight. Now what will He do for Him? This is what He does for him. We have to grasp the position of man first and carry it forward to Christ here in solitariness as seen in the gospels, and to God's desires for Him; but then you have to add to that that He finds something, which Adam did not.

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Adam did not find the woman; it was God who thought of it. But Christ had the thought. He says as to the pearl, "having found one pearl of great value", Matthew 13:46.

R.W.S. He moves in full consciousness in finding the pearl. Adam knew nothing of it.

C.A.M. I suppose it would be all right to say that the Lord with that in His path goes on to death with the consciousness that He was great enough to bring that into being.

J.T. Yes, that is the thought. The Lord said, "Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone". God said of Adam it was not good for him to be alone. The suffering on the cross is the falling into the ground. He fell into the ground; that is the point. He was actually in the state of death.

R.W.S. Have you any thought as to why the member removed was a rib?

J.T. I do not know, I am sure, but there was no shortage.

R.W.S. I wondered whether there was any spiritual point in the member being a rib.

J.T. I think it is the side of Christ; that is the explanation of it.

A.N.W. That is John's view.

J.T. Yes; that is right. John says, "not a bone of him shall be broken". He quotes Exodus 12:46. He is the only one that does, as far as I remember. John's view is the affections of Christ -- "he shewed to them his hands and side", John 20:20. It is not a perfect type, but there is the suggestion in the rib. The flesh was carefully closed up; that is, the man was left whole. He was deprived of nothing; I mean to say, he got back his one, in having lost his rib, a thousand-fold. The flesh is carefully closed up, and you may be sure there was no scar; although the Lord has a scar, but that is only the testimony as to

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His love; but this is to bring out, I think, that part of the body that is nearest the heart, nearest the affections.

Rem. Then remarkably the verse comes in that says, "And Man said. This time it is bone of my bones". The idea of the plural comes in, the whole structure was to be like the whole structure of the man.

J.T. Yes; it was a bone taken from many bones -- "bone of my bones". It is not a question of part of a bone, but one of the bones. It is a complete idea.

R.A.L. He adds "flesh of my flesh". Did God take some of his flesh? Why does he add "flesh of my flesh"?

J.T. Well Adam intelligently so regards it, but you cannot have the plural in flesh, but you can have the plural of bone. The bone is an entity, so to speak. It is one taken from many others and a complete thought in itself that God could take and build. He formed the rib into the woman.

Ques. Is it not a complete structure that Adam is looking at here? It is not an unfinished structure, but a complete structure.

J.T. Yes. He could not have said anything else as to where the being came from, but Adam regards it as one thing. It is his flesh. It is union; this creature is taken out of Adam, and she is a whole creature. She is a whole person. There she is. She is a whole complete thought.

A.F.M. Does verse 24 suggest that the thought was in Adam's mind, or is it the Spirit's comment -- "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and cleave to his wife"?

J.T. That is the Spirit's comment as bearing upon the whole race of mankind. That bears on marriage, and the Lord takes it up in Matthew 19, but Ephesians 5 touches marriage, too -- "I speak as to

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Christ, and as to the assembly". This truth would bear on Christ and the assembly, which was in view. This was in the mind of God at the time.

J.S. In the world the thought of one flesh is not understood.

J.T. No, it is not. It is the highest thought of marriage, which people do not understand. The Lord brought it in very beautifully in Matthew 19. "He who made them from the beginning". He did not say God. He just said "He who made them from the beginning made them male and female ... and the two shall be one flesh ... What therefore God hath joined together, let not man separate".

E.B. Does Genesis 1:27 precede this? Does the thought referred to in that verse help?

J.T. It says, "God created man in his image ... male and female created he them". What is in your mind about that?

E.B. Does that precede the building of the woman.

J.T. Well, that is divine purpose. They are viewed as entities there, but in chapter 5, it is said, "Male and female ... and called their name Adam". One name is union. That is what we are speaking of.

A.F.M. Is the union in chapter 2 to take place when God brings Eve to the man? Is that the actual taking place of union.

J.T. Yes, that is right. What preceded that is the material; the material came out of the man. There could be no union except on that basis. It is the same flesh, the same bone, and therefore union is possible.

A.N.W. Say a word or two more on that part of the verse Mr. M, was quoting -- "brought her to Man". Is that not a very striking and important statement?

J.T. Well, it is. You say something about it.

A.N.W. I am inquiring. Was not the blessed

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Spirit very largely there in it? In Ephesians, the Man presents it to Himself.

A.R.S. In the type, the servant brings Rebecca across the desert to the man.

J.T. And Isaac takes her from him. He does not present her to him.

A.R.S. There is no marriage celebration. He just takes her and goes into his mother's tent.

J.T. There is no marriage ceremony and no celebration. You have something in your mind. Mr. W., as to Jehovah presenting her to the man.

A.N.W. I thought it was a striking statement; although you would think she was there, the statement "and brought her to Man" seems to reflect on divine operations.

J.T. I think the idea is, there is an objective scene there from Adam's point of view. Jehovah presents her. He brought the cattle before.

A.R.S. Does not verse 18 help us? "And Jehovah Elohim said. It is not good that Man should be alone". Now He made a helpmate and brings her. It was God's idea for complete happiness for Adam.

J.T. Yes, and it would be an objective scene to Adam. He saw her coming. Isaac went out into the fields, and he saw Rebecca coming. Now it says in verse 18, "And Jehovah Elohim said. It is not good that Man should be alone; I will make him a helpmate, his like".

Now your mind is left in suspense there, and then something else is brought in as it says, "And out of the ground Jehovah Elohim had formed every animal of the field and all fowl of the heavens, and brought them to Man, to see what he would call them" verse 19. It is the same thing; your mind is just left in suspense until this, because it is added properly to verse 20.

F.H.L. Would it not reflect on the dignity with which Christ would view the assembly?

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J.T. I think it is to bring out that it is an objective scene, as far as Adam was concerned. Each creature was brought. God brought them, and Adam named them. How he did it, we do not know. He would view each creature as it came. He might see a lion or another of the creatures coming, and he would name them intelligently from their movements. Their movements would suggest what they were characteristically. But now he sees this wonderful creature coming, as God brings her, and now he says "this time", which refers to verse 20. He had said what the other creatures were. Now he says, "this time". This is a unique time, and what is she? She shall be called "Ishshah" -- wherever he got that word. It is wonderful how language grew. This word could never have been in use before. It must have been spontaneous, the use of this word "Ishshah" because he says, she is taken out of "Ish" -- a very fine evidence of his intelligence. Think of Christ and see how He looks at the movement of the assembly. You have in the Song of Songs His description of the earthly bride; how He would look at the saints, the disciples, those that loved Him and were around Him, men and women, those that loved Him from Galilee, how he would look at them and love them! "Christ also loved the assembly, and has delivered himself up for it".

J.T.Jr. There would be an answer to His movements in the movements of His wife.

Rem. Like Ish. It says, a helpmate his like.

J.T. What else could he say. It is "Ishshah", taken out of Ish.

A.F.M. Is that why we find the Lord doing wonderful things for His own in His ministry here; in love to them He would wait on them and stoop to do things for them that ordinarily such a Person would not do? Was the truth of the assembly or His wife in His mind?

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J.T. I think so -- "I love my wife" -- in the type.

A.R. He says to Saul of Tarsus "Why persecutest thou me?" I suppose that would correspond to what you said. He saw His like on earth.

J.T. Quite so.

--.MacC. You spoke of unity as preceding union. I would like you to say something about that.

J.T. Union is, of course, the assembly united to Christ. Before that, you can see that the saints should be united too. That is what ministry aims at, that there might be practical unity amongst the saints.

--.MacC. Unity, which brings to my soul a knowledge of Christ and of God, is the thing that precedes actual union by the Spirit, would you say?

J.T. Yes; the normal presentation of the truth is in Romans. It says, "We ... are one body in Christ". That means that we have a status. It does not say, 'one body by the Spirit' in Romans, because the time for that to come is in Corinthians "in the power of one Spirit we have all been baptised into one body", (1 Corinthians 12:13) because we are all made partakers of that one Spirit. That is the idea, a unity according to God. He says, "unity of the Spirit", Ephesians 4:3.

C.A.M. God could state the thing before it actually comes about.

J.T. Yes, quite so.

A.F.M. What is the link between Corinthians and Ephesians? Is it Colossians?

J.T. Yes; Colossians goes further and says that we are quickened with Christ, quickened with Him.

W.B-w. It says in Colossians, "being united together in love", Colossians 2:2. Is that more the idea of unity?

J.T. Yes; that is Corinthians carried along; but "quickened ... with him" is an additional thought, which you do not get in Corinthians, and underlies

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what you are speaking of. We are quickened in that life; not only that we are united, but we are living in His life.

C.A.M. That is a very interesting thing because that thought is only in Colossians and Ephesians. It is nowhere else, as if we would not have reached that far in apprehension, is that right?

J.T. Yes; I think you get things in these epistles as you are equal for them, and equal to them.

W.B-w. Would you connect the word quickening with the rib. God built a woman out of the rib, but He must have quickened her, too.

J.T. Well, as applied to us, we are quickened with Him so that we live in His life and the correspondence between Him and us as to the order of humanity is complete if we are quickened with Him. We come up out of death with Him, that is, in His life. The material, so to speak, is the same as His.

C.A.M. You see God's consideration for us in presenting the thing so that we are able to take it in. We should understand that when God says a thing there is an immensity in His mind; there is a vastness in such a scripture as "neither shall ye break a bone thereof", Exodus 12:46.

J.T. Quite; so we have to follow the incarnation and see how it is possible for us to be brought into that order of Man, that order of humanity. The disciples could not be united to Him while He was alive; they could not participate in that humanity; that is unique. But when He falls into the ground and dies and the fruit comes up, that fruit is exactly like the grain that fell; that is what the figure means.

Ques. With nothing clinging to it of previous history?

J.T. No; that blade begins down there in that Grain that went into the ground, that died and comes up. "He that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one", Hebrews 2:11. That is an expression

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you do not get elsewhere. However, it is a very strong expression, it is not simply that they are united but that they are one, so He is not ashamed to call us brethren.

W.B-w. It is quickened with Christ in Colossians and Ephesians.

J.T. Quite so. What did you say about Ephesians?

W.B-w. That is where we are raised up.

J.T. That is another thing, rising up is not with Christ in Ephesians 2. Rising up is altogether ours. He "has raised us up together".

A.N.W. That is emphasizing unity again.

J.T. Yes; we are all raised up together and made to sit down together in the heavenlies, arriving where Christ is. Romans is simply, "we ... are one body in Christ", (Romans 12:5) but quickening in both cases is the same thing.

C.A.M. "Quickened with" is one word in the original.

J.T. That shows what we are speaking of.

J.S. How far do you view quickening? How far does it go?

J.T. I think the affections. We are brought into His life. It is a wonderful thing; not only that I have life, but I am brought into His life. "Raised up together", in Ephesians, is a further thing; it is to fit us to be in heaven, but that is not "with Christ". That is with ourselves. We are brought up in absolute unity and made to sit down there in Christ up there.

C.A.M. But the "with Christ", if I understand rightly what you say, is rather more a matter of principle than position.

J.T. It is principle, but it is a very real thing that we are made to live in His life.

C.A.M. I know 'principle' is not a very good word, but it was just to distinguish it from what is positional.

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J.T. Yes; "in Christ" is status up there. We are made to sit down.

J.S. Quickening would be a state. It is a positive thing that exists today.

J.T. Quite; it is not ordinary living.

Ques. Would it be right to say that we are quickened into an eternal state of things?

J.T. It is in His life that we are quickened, brought up with Him out of the grave, so that the saints in Acts 1 evidenced it. He showed Himself alive after He suffered. He showed Himself to them, and He assembled with them. They were quickened in His life. In principle, they were the same as Himself. They were in His life, "bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh". That is how He was quickening them in His thoughts.

C.A.M. That is a very interesting thing. He awakened their ability to take it in, and then presented Himself to them.

J.T. Quite; you can see how the thing was. They were as He was. "As he is, so are we" even now, 1 John 4:17.

J.S. In His message to Mary, "Go to my brethren", He recognized that.

A.N.W. "With him" must be closely allied with affection.

J.T. What would it be without affection on His side and on ours?

Ques. Do you not think that on our side, in the epistle to the Ephesians; there was a divine response because it is spoken of in Revelation as "first love"?

J.T. That is right. The address would show that -- "to the saints and faithful in Christ Jesus who are in Ephesus". That is a good thing to say about them, "saints and faithful", and on that ground He is able to speak to them of the wonderful things that are in this wonderful epistle.

W.B-w. When Paul left Ephesus (Acts 20:1),

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he embraced them, and one of the last things they did when he left the elders (Acts 20:37) was that they embraced him.

J.T. That helps greatly. Acts 20 is full of love; there is love in the beginning, love in the middle, and love at the end. He embraced them in the beginning, then he enfolded Eutychus in his arms, and then they embraced him at the end. This really fits in with the epistle. It is a love chapter. So you can see what a circle of love there was in the upper room at Troas. What a circle there was -- the very best of Paul's ministry and the principal men that were there with him. If you were in that circle, you might say you were in heaven. It was a circle of love, the life of Christ is there.

Ques. Does the fact that "first love" is mentioned, suggest that it is the best love, the highest character of love?

J.T. That is right.

Ques. And in that thought, is there the thought of union?

J.T. I think so. That is where it belongs. That is where the thing fits. The saints are intelligently in the life of Christ. He loves them and they love Him -- "the love of Christ which passeth knowledge".

Ques. Does Revelation 2 show that it was a wonderful thing and existed only for a short time?

J.T. In its entirety, perhaps, but it exists all the time in principle. The overcomers, in principle, are in union.

A.N.W. I was thinking how we can thank God it was long enough to have the letter written.

J.T. However short, it was there.

C.A.M. I thought the week in Troas would show it really covers a long period.

J.T. They had a wonderful time there. The results of Paul's ministry is par excellence, as you

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might say. The very best were there in the seven names given, not from one locality, but representative of the places he had visited, the cream of his work; see them together!

J.E.H. Were they sitting down in the heavenlies?

J.T. Well, that is where it was.

Rem. Even looking at it practically, the love must have waned, as represented in Eutychus, but it existed in Paul.

J.T. "All who are in Asia ... have turned away from me" ... you may be sure it had waned.

Ques. He came down and embraced Eutychus, just the same. Would he represent the overcomers?

J.T. He did.

T.H. That helps as to the enfolding. As coming out of a state of death, he would appreciate being quickened.

J.T. Yes, I think it would be an experience that Eutychus would never forget. We never hear any more about him. He is called a "youth", and then a "boy". I think the word "boy" means potentiality; the boy is developing. I have no doubt that he experienced the warmth of Paul's arms enfolding him. Paul says, "Be not troubled, for his life is in him". He does not say it had gone out of him. He was taken up for dead. I believe it would be an allusion to the state that the assembly fell into. The life was there, but only Paul could discern it.

C.A.M. Do you think it would be right to say that he really did in principle what the Lord did in the forty days.

J.T. Yes, I think he did. His life was in him. It shows resuscitation in rising from the dead. It is an allusion, I think, to the recovery of the church.

Ques. Does the truth of Paul's embrace come into the meeting on the first day of the week. Could we really have union otherwise? We must have all of

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this idea of embracing Christ, or we must embrace one another first, do you think?

J.T. Well, there may be that. I think the salutations in Romans, there are something like twenty, are to get the brethren to have love for one another. They are worth loving and he gives the reasons why they are to be saluted. If we do not respect the brethren, we will never love them, although we may use the words 'brother' and 'sister'. I believe the salutations mean that the brethren are worthy of respect -- every one of them. That precedes Corinthians really and Colossians and Ephesians. You get respect for the brethren, and "salute one another with a holy kiss". That is a very fine expression -- you salute those persons that you respect with a holy kiss; nature is left out of it. How can you do this unless you value them as worthy of respect? They are worthy of respect in heaven. Why should I not respect them?

W.B-w. You respect each according to his value. Some have a greater measure than others.

J.T. Quite so. The salutations in Romans give this in each case.

R.W.S. Think of each believer being picked up by Christ separately! What dignity! He had first choice, and He has made His selection and chosen each one.

J.T. I think it is a great matter to respect the brethren in more than a merely theoretical way, because there is something there to respect.

J.E.H. What about Quartus, the brother?

J.T. He is the brother, not a brother. It is the definite article.

R.D.G. Is this respect a part of the uniting process?

J.T. Well, that is what I wanted to get at. Romans is properly the working out of love. You are coming into the thing practically. That is what is united

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to Christ. That is the kind of thing that corresponds with the fruit that comes up from the ground, that fell into the ground and died. It is the same kind of thing.

Rem. It speaks in Romans 14 of the weak in the faith as those for whom Christ has died. It is Christ loving the assembly and being delivered up for it, involving His death.

J.T. It is the general thought of being delivered up for it. It is the general thought that He gave Himself for it. It is only for one, it is for his friends. It is more dying for friends. When you come to the expression of love. He dies for me because He loves me -- He "has loved me and given himself for me", Galatians 2:20. And you begin to see the saints that way, that the Lord Jesus loved them. We lay down our lives for the brethren and care for them. The assembly is united to Christ; it is like Himself. It is Himself. He said to Saul, "Why dost thou persecute me?" These people are like Him. That is what is united to Christ.

W.G.T. There is no thought of penalty in that.

J.T. No, it is not necessary. If a Man loves me and dies for me, that is all you want as a proof of His love.

Ques. Does the working out of union come into the privilege side of the morning meeting?

J.T. I think it does. When you come to the service in the assembly. God is the great object. It is not expressly union that I would stress there; it is the Minister of the holy places and His brethren and God's sons. It is more that side.

Ques. What about the early part of the privilege side of the morning meeting, for instance, after the breaking of bread and going out together in the company of Christ to the Mount of Olives? Would that not correspond to union?

J.T. Yes -- "married to another" is the suggestion

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of it, bringing "forth fruit unto God". That is Romans. No doubt it is there, but service in the assembly is more that He has brethren, and these brethren are God's sons. He has power with them as His brethren so that He leads them. He is God's Son, leading many sons to glory.

Ques. Then in speaking to the Father, the whole range of vision helps. Christ and the assembly being an eternal thought. Would that come into our speaking to the Father in a very marked way?

J.T. Well, as regards headship, it would. That is a thing that develops out of union. His headship, and it is a very wide thought. It bears on the position of the assembly in all its movements in the universe.

Ques. Where would you experience what is spoken of in the Song of Songs, "His left hand would be under my head"?

J.T. He comes in there. You are "to be to another, who has been raised up from among the dead" enters into it. That is all right, but the idea of the husband and wife is an institution by itself. In the main, it a question of His brethren who are the sons of God, and that is the line on which the service of God is carried on.

W.B-w. John 20 is beyond union then?

J.T. I think so. That is another line. The brethren, of course, are the bride, the assembly viewed as united to Him, but it is another line when you think of His brethren and the sons of God.

C.A.M. Would it be right to say they are concurrent?

J.T. They run together. It is a collateral line, and headship must come in in assembly service. Otherwise we do not know what to do, for in general, headship is for wisdom so that we do know what to do. We are thinking of God now, and it is as the brethren of Christ and the sons of God.

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J.S. In Genesis 2 you would be thinking of the Man -- "brought her to Man".

J.T. Yes; it is for him.

J.S. Rebecca was for Isaac and the saints would be for God.

J.T. That is what I was thinking we ought to get at here. They are collateral lines, but the service in the assembly is brethren of Christ and sons of God.

A.N.W. When you say the bride is an eternal thought, you have to include that, do you not? Really the eternal thought is that headship would operate Godward. Do you conclude that the bride is an eternal thought? Does Scripture say so?

J.T. Yes; just as you conclude of union. It is there, but you can see that a man and his wife is an institution. It is what the assembly is to Christ and what He is to her, and it works out in headship; so that she knows what to do; hence He is head over all things to the assembly.

A.N.W. God is the object there.

J.T. Yes, in the service of God, in the sanctuary itself, it is the brethren of Christ and then the sons of God, and Christ viewed as Minister of the holy places.

Ques. "That he might have the first place in all things", Colossians 1:18. Is there not a point succeeding the covenant line where Christ is held prominently before us even before we go on with the service of God?

J.T. Oh, yes. He is anointed with oil of gladness above his companions, (Hebrews 1:9).

A.F.M. Would there not be some thought of an appreciation of Him in the first part of the meeting, that is after the Supper when He comes into the midst? would this be more in line with union than what we have been speaking of in connection with the service of God?

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J.T. I think that is quite all right, what He is to us in that way. It works out in headship.

A.F.M. They are both primary thoughts.

J.T. I think so. I think the Lord's supper develops into union in that way.

R.D.G. Is there any distinction between Ephesians 5 and Hebrews 2? Hebrews 2 brings in the idea of brethren and sons.

J.T. Well Ephesians 5 is what Christ is.

R.D.G. What He presents to Himself?

J.T. And what subsists personally; what He has in the assembly before Him, but then the service of God is another line. The Lord is the Minister of the holy places and He has brethren. God has sons.

R.D.G. And the Lord Jesus brings them -- "bringing many sons to glory".

J.T. Yes.

E.B. Would you say that there are many christians who love the Lord but who do not know anything about union?

J.T. I do not think we know much about it ourselves.

Ques. Would not Revelation 2 show that? The saints there evidently knew a great deal about many things, but when it comes to first love they had given that up.