The notes of these meetings have been carefully revised, but not by the late Mr. James Taylor himself.

THE LORD AS A MAN OF LEISURE

Genesis 22:19; Genesis 24:61 - 65; Genesis 26:7, 8; Genesis 43:16; Deuteronomy 24:5

J.T. The intent is to call attention to these scriptures to show how the Lord reserves a time for occupation with the assembly as His bride; this over against Joseph who is not a man of leisure, but a man of affairs, who would come in at noon in the midst of his work, and we have the reference therefore in Genesis 43 to his readiness to occupy himself with these brothers, including Benjamin, as they came down from Canaan. It is said that he should come home at noon, being occupied as a man of affairs. Verse 16 says "Joseph saw Benjamin with them, and said to the man who was over his house, Bring the men into the house, and slaughter cattle, and make ready; for the men shall eat with me at noon". Now the verse of the first passage was read because it points to the Lord Jesus typically as having gone to heaven. Abraham and the young men who accompanied him went to Beer-sheba. It is said, "And Abraham returned to his young men, and they rose up and went together to Beer-sheba. And Abraham dwelt at Beer-sheba". Because the verse does not note that Isaac came with his father to Beer-sheba, the type suggests that Christ has gone to heaven, and his relations with the assembly now are from heaven, and the verses in Genesis 24 speak of Isaac being at Beer-lahai-roi. "Isaac had just returned from Beer-lahai-roi; for he was dwelling in the south country". That is, he is not engaged with anything special, and so he is preoccupied with Rebecca. It says, "Isaac had gone out to meditate in the fields toward the beginning of evening. And he lifted up his eyes and saw, and behold, camels were coming", meaning that

he is occupied not so much with Rebecca as with the presence of the means by which she is carried, as if to remind us that the Lord is concerned as to whether we are being carried as part of the assembly or whether we are moving in relation to the power of nature, or according to human practice, or whether we are dependent on and separated by the Holy Spirit. The passage in chapter 26 only confirms this. Isaac is still seen at leisure, the word is 'dallying' with Rebecca, meaning that it is the time of affection, and the passage in Deuteronomy is to confirm further that the type requires that if a man takes a new wife he shall have a year of leisure. I hope these remarks will be intelligible.

J.T.W. Have you in mind that this covers the whole period of the assembly, or is it the Lord's particular service now?

J.T. I should say it is the Lord's particular service now, while it is, typically, after the death of Israel. He is occupied with the assembly. This, of course, comes out in the period of the Lord's supper, it does not go on constantly, but in the period when the Supper is celebrated, the first day of the week.

J.T.W. As over against other interests He is occupied with?

J.T. Just so, in that it would be particularly worked out in a dispensational sense. He is not sitting on His own throne yet, He is sitting on the Father's throne. He is not ruling the world, nor Israel yet, He is devoted to the assembly, and hence the leisure that is suggested in these passages. Not that the Lord is not occupied with work, other scriptures would show that, but this scripture shows what I am speaking of, and involves an important feature of the truth. It may be that the brethren have not noticed that Isaac did not return from the place of his offering up, in death typically, but it is a fact

that it is not recorded that he returned with his father and the men to Beer-sheba.

T.B. What are we to understand by that, that Isaac does not return with Abraham?

J.T. Well, the reference would be to the ascension, as spoken of in Luke 24, and Acts 1 and in John 20, and in Mark. The testimony to the ascension is very full, and the assembly is supposed in the typical books and apostolic letters to be involved in the Lord's ascension. She goes up with him. That is to be understood mysteriously, but it is a fact. According to Revelation the man child goes up to heaven and it is intelligible that the assembly goes, too, because she is not in the persecution, she is taken out of the way. He says in Revelation 3 that He will keep us from the great tribulation.

C.E.B. Do we assemble ourselves together to break bread with the fact in mind that the Lord is in heaven?

J.T. The more accurate thought would be that He is rejected here. He is in heaven, it is true, but it is that He is rejected here that should be in our minds. "The stone which they that builded rejected, this has become the corner-stone". (Matthew 21:42; Mark 12:10; Luke 20:17; see also Psalm 118:22)

Ques. Is it your thought that Rebecca is typical of the assembly in a peculiar way as ministering to the affections of Christ?

J.T. Just so.

Ques. So that He is peculiarly engaged with her in a leisurely way?

J.T. That is a good way to put it, in a leisurely way; hence the word in Genesis 26 (in the Darby Translation) is "dallying" not 'sporting' (as used in the Authorised Version) It is hardly in keeping with the position; the word 'sport' is hardly suitable, but 'dallying' is quite intelligible.

C.E.B. Does dallying convey the idea of union?

J.T. Just so, and perfect familiarity in the sense of union.

J.C.E. Is this the assembly's position as ascended with Christ or here?

J.T. As ascended with Christ. That is the idea. The position of the assembly now is ascension. We are not only raised with Christ but we are ascended. Colossians speaks of our being raised with Him through faith of the operation of God. That is, a person who is baptised not only goes into the water, but comes out of it, a figure of resurrection, but Ephesians gives you that, and tells us that we are raised up together, and made to sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus.

Ques. Had the Lord this in mind in His ministry to Mary Magdalene when He said, "I ascend to my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God"?

J.T. That is just the point. The fact of ascension is not stressed there, but it is simply He would ascend, or rather the truth "I ascend". Not exactly the tense but the fact. It is a fact that He does ascend.

C.E.B. Does the thought of "dallying" convey the idea of responsive affections between Christ and the assembly?

J.T. That is right, and all the liberty and latitude that belongs to the position.

Ques. Should the quickening in Ephesians 2 give us the affections that would take advantage of this leisure time?

J.T. Well, the Philistine king saw this liberty that Isaac had with Rebecca, and that Rebecca had with him, and he discerned the fact she was his wife and not his sister. Now we are in a wealthy position. The word 'spouse' does involve the marital relation, but not all of it, and therefore when Isaac said she was his sister that was a denial of the truth. We are related to Christ in the sense of the wife. The

marriage of the Lamb has come; the wife has made herself ready, it is a wifely time.

C.E.B. Does this follow on chapter 24, "Isaac led her into his mother Sarah's tent ... and she became his wife, and he loved her"?

J.T. That is just the fact. In chapter 26 he said she was his sister, whereas she was his wife. That is the important thing for us to understand; that is that we are united to Christ now as much as we shall ever be, and hence the possibilities of the assembly service at the present time.

Ques. Is it necessary to understand what is involved in what is said that when the servant said "it is my master", she took a veil and covered herself?

J.T. Well, that was becoming, as if she would say, 'I do not want my beauty to be exposed to others' -- she reserved it for Isaac. That is our suitability. It is said constantly, as in such as Abigail she was a woman of great beauty and good understanding, and so was Rebecca. She is said to be of beauty, her personal appearance is involved.

Rem. She would reserve that for Isaac alone.

J.T. That is what I understand, that is why she took a veil, but what is suggested is that we are not always carried by the Spirit, and that is why I believe the Lord here (Isaac) notes the fact that camels were coming. We might have thought that he saw Rebecca coming, she saw Isaac, but he saw the camels, meaning she was carried by the proper power. Hence all the systems of Christendom are shut out.

Ques. Is it not in measure as we know what it is to be carried by the camels, that we know what it is to see Isaac, and we are prepared to spring off the camels?

J.T. Yet she is perfectly in keeping with the position in her movements and acts, which are in order and suitable and seemly, and the Lord is

pleased with how she has been carried to Him. There are many who are not carried by the Spirit, but are carried along by creeds and religious systems. Every believer has Him as the gift of God, and should use Him in relation to our approach and journey to Christ.

Rem. This great matter of taking a wife for Isaac began with the father, Abraham, and he made a provision, sending out the camels and so forth.

J.T. That is good, so what we find is the servant -- the chief one of his house, he is not called Eliezer in this chapter, he is just the chief servant of Abraham, and Abraham does not tell him what to do, he takes the camels himself, and is in complete charge of all that his master has. The position is thus very full, and very free from any human reservation and restriction; it is a sphere of freedom, the freedom of the Spirit. The Spirit is typified in the servant, and the camels, and therefore it is a time of liberation. The Spirit is also typified in the well by which Rebecca watered the camels, and the men. The well at Beer-lahai-roi is also a type of the Spirit. It is a very full position of spiritual power, and we should avail ourselves of it, and not be struggling with human systems and money and the like.

A.O. Is it possible in accepting the light we are not carried by the Spirit?

J.T. That is true, sadly true, and so we may be found making the ordinary customs of the brethren just a means of carrying us along, and the power is not there. Paul said he had the power, and that the excellence of the power may be of God and not of us.

Rem. The Lord, speaking to the disciples of the Spirit coming, said, "He shall take of mine and shall shew it unto you". Was that the same thing as what is said of the servant? He takes the camels, without having been told to do so.

J.T. I had been thinking that. There is a peculiar

liberty that is attached to the position; the Spirit here to serve, He is sent down from heaven, yet He is a divine Person, and He has to be apprehended as a divine Person, and yet serving in obedience.

F.A.W. In verse 61 it emphasises that "they rode upon the camels, and followed the man. And the servant took Rebecca". Is that as being available to the Spirit He takes her on?

J.T. Just so. There is a remarkable amount of latitude in the fact that the man led her, and she followed him. The type carries so much that it suggests the Spirit, and the power of the Spirit to us.

C.E.B. And as following the man she moves in a comely way, thinking of the way in which she springs from the camel and took a veil and veiled herself.

J.T. Like Abigail, who hasted and lighted off her ass. The power of the Spirit is a spring in our souls.

W.J.T. That is contrary to what is found in Christendom.

J.T. That is just the point. We are to be set aside and be in the true light and liberty of this chapter. What is said about Joseph is also important. He came in at noon. He was a man of affairs. The Lord will be a man of affairs presently. God has fixed the day when He will rule the world. He will judge the world, and the Lord will take on the rule of the world, whose right it is. It is His right. The powers that be are of God, and in that position, but only provisionally. And the saints, the assembly, are to be with Him in that rule.

J.M.T. In chapter 22 the suggestion is that Isaac is the ascended one, now in chapter 24 he is dwelling in the south country.

J.T. Well, that is another setting of the position. Although ascended into heaven we cannot say He is always stationary, for He tells us in John 14, "I will not leave you orphans, I am coming to you". That would be involved in what we said; He is not stationary.

He has gone into heaven, in fact beyond all heavens. There is, indeed, rule in the Lord's present position.

W.W. Is that seen in the Song of Songs? "Behold, he cometh, leaping upon the mountains, skipping upon the hills". Does that suggest the time He has to spend?

J.T. Very good. "I am coming to you" is very full of meaning. He would not leave us dependent upon what the ordinary religious societies depend upon. He is coming for us, too. We have to distinguish between His coming to us as in assembly and at other times, too. 1 Corinthians 15 tells us of the many times in which the Lord appeared to His own, first to Cephas, then to the twelve, then He appeared to about five hundred brethren at once, then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles, and then to Paul, showing that the Lord has latitude at the present time in the activities of His love.

J.T.W. Are you linking that up with the south country?

J.T. Yes, it is a favourable country, not like the north where things are adverse, everything is favourable in this chapter. You are impressed with the wealth. Abraham disappears and Isaac is called the master in the end. Isaac is all.

T.G. The expression in verse 63, "toward the beginning of evening", is that suggestive of the anticipated time for leisure?

J.T. Yes, but we must not leave Rebecca out of it, as to activity, because verse 61 says, "and Rebecca arose, and her maids, and they rode upon the camels, and followed the man". That is to say the feminine side is stressed, not in Rebecca only, but her maids. We have the same thought in Abigail, she had maids, and so it is in the assembly's approach to the Lord. The feminine side is stressed, and this has to be understood in assembly service. It is not

simply that Rebecca arose, but her maids, and they rode upon the camels. That is to say they also were carried by spiritual power, and they followed the man. And then the servant took Rebecca and went away, meaning he is in charge. The Spirit of God is in charge in certain relations and circumstances. The Spirit Himself at times is supreme, and so in Acts 13 He says, "Separate me now Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them". That is, the Spirit Himself is acting there, acting divinely, as God, "and having laid their hands on them, they let them go", and they went. And so we have to understand that the Spirit Himself is moving, and is in charge of the position, and so it goes on "Isaac had just returned". He is not doing anything very special. "Isaac had just returned from Beer-lahai-roi; for he was dwelling in the south country. And Isaac had gone out to meditate in the fields toward the beginning of evening", showing the Lord has His own thoughts. He is a divine Person, but He has a mind to meditate in the field toward the beginning of evening, meaning the day had pretty well ended, and then "he lifted up his eyes and saw, and behold, camels were coming". It is simply camels, not the camels. The Lord is taking in all the power by which we are carried, and the power which Rebecca began with was ten camels, which the servant selected, and they were at her disposal.

Ques. What is suggested in Isaac lifting up his eyes and Rebecca lifting up her eyes?

J.T. All that is to be said in that way is that he lifted up his eyes and saw camels; she lifted up her eyes and saw Isaac. The inference is he is occupied for the moment with the power by which she is carried, and she is occupied with him, which is suitable and seemly.

J.O.S. Would that enter into the way we assemble together?

J.T. I think so. We begin with the Spirit. I think we begin with ourselves as a matter of fact. "We being assembled to break bread", the scripture says. That is to say, the Lord leaves us, as it were, to meet, and in due course He joins us, but He would think of what we are, and what He has done for us, and made us, and what we are capable of, and He joins us. And so we must think of each other. How valuable we are in the Lord's eyes! As if He would look down from heaven and see us in our way of meeting where we have love enough to be content with each other.

Ques. What does Sarah's tent convey to us?

J.T. It is Israel's position which will be again occupied. At the beginning of the Christian period Sarah's tent was occupied by the disciples. That is to say the Lord went up to heaven, and the disciples returned to Jerusalem, and they carried on for a considerable time. The breaking of bread is never said to be in the temple, but they did other things there. They disappeared, however, and the assembly took its own place. It is through Paul that the assembly claimed its full place, and Corinthians shows that the assembly takes the place of the temple, showing there is the metropolitan position -- for a time the temple -- and this in due course becoming the fixed position of the assembly on earth during the present dispensation.

Ques. Is that in the mind of the Spirit in the expression "Israel of God"?

J.T. Yes, I think so, "our whole twelve tribes". Paul used it, and it went on for a time, but in due course the assembly was recognised, and nothing else, among whom we also are builded together.

W.N. Would verse 65 suggest that the assembly is inquiring as to Christ on the journey?

J.T. Well, it would. "She had said to the servant"; that is what we are doing now; these Bible

readings are inquiries. We all get instruction by inquiry. It says we are to inquire of the Lord. The Lord will give us understanding, and the Spirit does, He takes of the Lord's things and shows them unto us. The servant here is a type of the Spirit.

S.C. Solomon says, "Who is this that cometh up out of the wilderness?"

J.T. That is the millennial position, I think, in which the assembly fits in beautifully at times, as at the beginning of Acts, until Paul came into view, and he is formally recognised as the minister of the assembly; he has the light of it, and the ministry of reconciliation and the gospel, and he completed the word of God.

T.G. Is it understood that the Lord reserves a time to occupy Himself with the assembly (verse 67), and that the preceding verse suggests the detailed instruction leading up to it?

J.T. I would think so. The servant, as he is called, the Holy Spirit, instructs us, as in John's gospel, it is he that speaks of the Comforter. The Spirit is an active Person to instruct us about Christ. In John 20 we are told the Lord breathed into the disciples and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit". We have to understand that and compare it, and cause it to coincide with Acts 2. John 20 is a pattern of the thing. The Lord breathing into them is a more intimate thought than in Acts 2.

J.C.E. Psalm 45 says, "So shall the king greatly desire thy beauty: for he is thy Lord; and worship thou him". Does the thought of worship enter into this matter?

J.T. I would think so, as soon as Christ is recognised as the Master. He is called the master by the servant, "Who is the man that is walking in the fields to meet us? And the servant said, That is my master!" (verse 65). That is, Christ is God. He is

a divine Person equal with the Father, and John's gospel opens that up to us.

Ques. Does that stress the importance of the marital side in the Supper?

J.T. That is what I was thinking, and what we have in chapter 26 enlarges on it, and in Deuteronomy, which perhaps the brethren may note. "When a man hath taken a new wife". Isaac had just taken a wife. Christ has taken a wife. "He shall not go out with the army, neither shall any kind of business be imposed upon him; he shall be free for his house one year, and shall gladden his wife whom he hath taken". Now I think what we have been saying is seen there. It is called a year, and no doubt it is what could be seen in the beginning, as the Spirit came down -- no conflict, although that comes in in due time, but that is not stressed, it is what Christ has in the assembly after Israel (Sarah) had died.

W.S. You yourself said you linked this more particularly with the first day of the week, rather than the whole.

J.T. Well, it would be any time. The Lord is said to have appeared to the brethren five or six times in 1 Corinthians 15. We cannot say that this is the first day of the week. Some think that it may be mediatorial, that He comes by the Spirit, but that is not the truth, because facts maintained show that He came in a corporal sense in the time of the forty days and after it. We cannot restrict the Lord -- a divine Person -- He may come any time. He came to Paul even with the event recorded in Acts 9.

C.E.B. Have you in mind that we should look for the Lord to come amongst us?

J.T. Well, I would hardly go so far as that. We can hardly expect what was at the beginning, miracles, etc., not in relation to the assembly but the gospel, and therefore the Lord would reserve to Himself His own liberty to come as it suited Him.

Ques. You would say that He would appear to make His presence felt?

J.T. Yes, hence you would say, "It is the Lord". David said to Abigail, "Blessed be thy discernment, and blessed be thou".

T.G. What is your thought as to Deuteronomy 24? "He shall be free for his house one year, and shall gladden his wife whom he hath taken". Why the house first?

J.T. Well, Christ is the Son over His house; Son over God's house, but still it is His house, too, because the assembly is His. I would say it is the assembly as in the sense of Christ's assembly. He is free for that, and I therefore understand that the Lord's supper refers to Christ alone.

T.G. Would it be right to suggest that the Lord is doing His very best with the house for suitable circumstances for the wife?

J.T. Just so, to make it suitable for her, she has part in it.

W.J.T. So the word in Genesis 24 is "Isaac was comforted", and here the wife is gladdened.

J.T. The Lord is not now hampered with any thought of Israel, she is defunct, she is dead. The fact is she is dead for the moment. Paul formally separated himself from the Jews in Acts 19, and finally in Acts 28. "Be it known to you therefore, that this salvation of God has been sent to the nations; they also will hear it", as if the Jews were given up. So that the Lord is devoted to His own house, and I think Joseph is a type of the Lord in that sense; Christ among the Gentiles. The epistle to the Colossians is another suggestion of what He has among the Gentiles.

F.A.W. It is the Supper as given to Paul. Would "I received from the Lord", bear on this point?

J.T. It does. It refers to Christ, it is the Lord's

supper, not the Father's supper, it is the Lord's supper, and all that stands related to it.

Ques. Where would you suggest, in taking the Lord's supper, this question of "dallying" would come between Christ and the assembly after the breaking of bread, or at the breaking of bread? Ecclesiastes says there is a time for everything, "a time to embrace" and "a time to love". (Ecclesiastes 3:5, 8)

J.T. Yes, and so the Lord's supper is a time of love, hence we have the Lord saying "my brethren". "Go to my brethren". The thought of the Father came in in due course, but let us give plenty of time for the dallying, for it is the Lord's own part with the assembly, what she is to Him and what she is for ever. There is still a tendency to hasten on to the Father. What we are saying is needed, in some places very much, in others not so. The Lord has to have His rights in the assembly, and it is the first place. He is said to be called the master, and so it is that we are said to be priests of the Christ.

Ques. If the Lord has His place in the way in which you are speaking, at the Supper, would we be led rightly to the Father, and there would not be the abruptness with which we sometimes turn?

J.T. Yes, I think that is good, and this question of priesthood implies intelligence in what we are doing. If we are abrupt in turning away from the Lord at the Supper we may do violence to the position. I am not saying it is so, but we may. The priests would correct all that. "The priest's lips should keep knowledge, and at his mouth they seek the law", and as I have just remarked, we are said to be priests unto Christ as well as unto God.

J.T.W. We are to give Him a greater place in the economy and in the service, that is Revelation 20.

J.T. It would do us all good to read it.

J.T.W. "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection on such the second death hath

no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years" (Revelation 20:6).

J.T. Well, these are facts. It gives the Messiah the full divine place in the service. Other scriptures corroborate that. "He is thy Lord", for instance, "worship thou him".

W.W. It is the same in Ephesians as to the wife reverencing her husband in all.

J.T. It is, and so "I speak as to Christ and as to the assembly", as though Paul made much of the speaking. What he would be concerned about is Christ and the assembly.

Ques. Would this matter of worship come out in the case of Abigail, as seen in the way in which she spoke to David; very much on the line of worship, and as "my lord"?

J.T. Quite so, and what is to be said in addition is that in 1 Samuel 25 which speaks of Abigail and David it contemplates not only Christ in relation with the assembly, but the elder brethren, those who rule in the assembly, and who may not be always right, because David drops from the level of the type of Christ in his behaviour towards Nabal. He has to change his mind about it. Although the types help us, sometimes they fail us, but we can discern where. The brethren may drop to the level of ordinary brethren, from the full level of the position of Christ as Head of the assembly. It is a remarkable thing that Abigail is chosen to bring that out, and she becomes quite settled in the matter, and David comes to her side, and recognises her discernment. "Blessed be thy discernment, and blessed be thou". She was blessed in his eyes.

J.O.S. Does love and intelligence enter into priesthood?

J.T. Well, I think so, and so priesthood in Exodus is not attributed to Aaron and his sons until love is displayed, is plainly shown. It shows that priesthood

is dependent on love; love being the side emphasised, so that you do not get priesthood applied to Aaron and his sons until Exodus 28, after love has been displayed, plainly shown, by the Hebrew servant. Probably that is the explanation of so much hesitancy and slowness and confusion because love is not ready -- the priests are not ready.

Ques. Is that why you linked the thought of Joseph's activities with his brethren and Isaac's leisure with his wife?

J.T. Well, he was serving them. When we spoke of leisure we applied it entirely to Isaac. Joseph is not that. Joseph is a great server, we can see that in other settings, whereas Isaac is not seen in that sense at all in the beginning. It is a question of latitude and liberty with dallying between Christ and the assembly in this dispensation. Joseph is serving his brethren. Pharaoh is said to have given him a name by which he is intended to be a deliverer of the world. He is another type of a man of affairs, of great things.

J.T.W. He could just come home at noon, whereas the Lord has plenty of time.

J.T. Exactly, He would afford enough time for his brethren.

T.G. It is the appreciation of Christ serving us in this way, the leisure, the restful, serene conditions.

J.T. Yes, I think so. We will never serve overtime to get the world's esteem on a Lord's day. If we are serving for money we will never get to the dallying point of which we have been speaking. The idea of a Sabbath is a prime idea in the scripture. The brethren so much need time in divine service, not to be in a hurry to get to it, but to be there leisurely. "In his shadow have I rapture and sit down".

T.G. Would not that fill out the periods of silence with the holiness that becomes the house of God, as well as the power?

J.T. Yes, you see the time is so valuable that it must be rightly spent. The priests need time. Time is needed, and they know what to do. This is a great matter amongst us, to know what to do.

J.O.S. Would a word early in the meeting help in this matter of leisure?

J.T. I think it does, it sets the minds of the brethren at rest. The Lord's supper is a matter of the mind at first.

C.E.B. Joseph would be a man of great activities in the famine periods, and he had a wife and children, that is the whole idea of what is marital and sonship is involved.

J.T. I think that is good, he has a wife and two children, and they got names that indicate that. That is seen in chapter 41. It says, "And Pharaoh called Joseph's name Zaphnath-paaneah, and gave him as wife Asnath the daughter of Potipherah, the priest in On, and Joseph went out over the land of Egypt". He was a man of affairs, and later on it says, "And to Joseph were born two sons before the year of famine came, whom Asnath the daughter of Potipherah the priest in On bore to him. And Joseph called the name of the firstborn Manasseh" -- forgetting his toil -- "and the name of the second he called Ephraim" -- double fruitfulness, "For God has caused me to be fruitful in the land of my affliction". That is most applicable to what we are saying. It indicates another side of Christ's position amongst the Gentiles, what He is rendering amongst the Gentiles.

J.O.S. Like John 4.

J.T. Just so. She reinforces the testimony of Christ as the Saviour of the world. Very good.

RESTRAINT AND LIBERTY

2 Thessalonians 2:5 - 8; Matthew 16:15 - 19; John 20:21 - 23

I wish to speak at this time, dear brethren, about restraint and liberty, making it, as it were, a dual subject; and also added to that, the means of accomplishing restraint, and the means of accomplishing liberty. The subject will be divided up in a threefold manner, firstly, political restraint involving the government of the world, involving too the rule of Christ in the world, a sure guarantee of the restraint of evil, and the liberty of good. Secondly, the restraint in the service of God, through the personnel employed by Him, involving apostolic power and skill. Thirdly, collective restraint, or I should say, firstly collective liberty afforded through collective means, and then restraint afforded through collective restraint.

The first point is obvious; it occurs only in the second letter to the Thessalonians. Second apostolic letters are peculiar, and are usually to meet conditions arising immediately, which had not been arrived at in the first letters. The same applies to the gospel of Luke, which did not fill out what the writer had in mind, at least, according to his judgment; but afterwards he was helped in filling it out. Heaven knew; Luke was a servant, and heaven took him on again for a great service in writing to the same servant Theophilus, thinking that he would be gracious in looking into the matter of the truth of Christianity. So that second letters, such as this second epistle to the Thessalonians, are peculiar; the first was the proclamation of the gospel and the loveliness of the Thessalonian assembly, for the idea of the word 'assembly' had come into use. Until Acts 14 the metropolitan idea had prevailed and was thought

right and useful. In Acts 9:31, the word 'assemblies' comes in, though it is disputed by some, that the single thought was still prevailing. It would seem so, as in Acts 18:22 Paul went to Caesarea, and then it says he went up, and "saluted the assembly", as if it was the only one. But the plural thought remains till now, and evidently love enters into it, and this is of advantage to the ministers. The Lord was establishing garrisons, as David did; in establishing His empire He has set up garrisons, and placed the authority in local assemblies, and the saints prove the benefit of them. So it is these second epistles are very instructive. But here the first is so, even more than the second, because the first deals with the attractiveness of the company at Thessalonica, as if God rested on the thought of the Thessalonians, young and fresh and most attractive, and obedient as well. They had "become imitators of the assemblies of God which are in Judaea in Christ Jesus". (1 Thessalonians 2:14); they followed the way, the order of the assembly set out in that section, "the assemblies of God which are in Judaea in Christ Jesus". The assembly of Thessalonians is one of the finest you can get, especially because it is "in God the Father". The second letter is to warn and instruct the young assembly as to the coming of the Lord, and the coming in of the antichrist, or rather, of the man of sin. It all turns on the means of meeting the conditions from which the assembly was formed; it was early, but not one of the first. Jerusalem was first, then the assemblies in Judaea, then in Syria.

But "the man of sin" (verse 3) is called in verse 7 "the mystery of lawlessness", not any particular person, or empire, or even the Roman Empire, but a mystery, that is something that was working by the enemy against the truth of the assembly. Now that mystery exists today; it has many more ramifications than previously, and it is now steeped in sin;

all its ramifications working to that effect. It becomes us who"call upon the Lord", according to 2 Timothy 2:22, to enquire as to this matter, as to how it is to be met. We all need to understand what it is; though the antichrist, as yet, is not seen; in Paul's mind it is more the 'anti-God'. It is working still, a mystery. We all need to understand that word, "the mystery of piety is great. God has been manifested in flesh, has been justified in the Spirit, has appeared to angels, has been preached among the nations, has been believed on in the world, has been received up in glory" (1 Timothy 3:16); that is the truth; it is a combination of words, almost poetic words, unfolding the deity of God, and piety, too, to call attention to the need to be pious, hence it is "the mystery of piety". Anyone who understands the mystery of piety has something about him that others do not know: "And confessedly the mystery of piety is great", and the greatness is apparent. And so the man of sin is called "the mystery of lawlessness". The intent is not to enlarge any more upon it, but to add the corrective, it is being restrained; that such a thing as that is being restrained, and the Holy Spirit is here to help us to keep ourselves free of that iniquity. There is the power of the Holy Spirit working in us, "greater is he that is in you than he that is in the world" (1 John 4:4), and that great Person is the Holy Spirit. We are to cultivate godliness and piety and assembly service, and not to forsake "the assembling of ourselves together, as the custom is with some", Hebrews 10:25. This awful thing is still current after these eighteen hundred years, all working against the truth of the assembly, which is growing and is supported in the sense of piety, the mystery of piety; it is one thing, and it produces the mystery of the assembly, which is a greater thing. How great a thing is glory to God "in the assembly in Christ

Jesus", Ephesians 3:21. It means enjoying it and being in it to the glory of God.

That is the first point, and the second is the passage read in Matthew 16. When I speak of persons, I cannot but think of the twelve apostles; they are primary; there were the things as to which the Lord loved to go over the ground with them, as to who they were that He had in His mind, not one more than another. The number twelve has administration in mind, and they were to be the great administrators. So Peter is selected, the Lord at times calling attention to him. The twelve did not discern what an instrument the devil had in Judas. It is what we read this afternoon as to "the darnel of the field", (Matthew 13:36) -- "the sons of the evil one", a terrible thing; sons that oppose Christ are the progeny of the devil, not just a demon, such is the character of the wickedness we have to deal with. The sons of the kingdom were copied or imitated, just as Moses and Aaron were imitated, and so it is that such persons are devils this is not to occupy you with evil, but that you should be acquainted with it. But I am speaking of the personnel, that of the twelve, and Peter's selection; not here primarily, when the Lord had seen him fishing; that is not what I am speaking of here, but now as being appointed an administrator, and having the keys, the custody, of the kingdom of the heavens it is said of him, "first, Simon, who was called Peter" (Matthew 10:2), so that he becomes a most interesting person, especially in the maintenance of good against evil. There is the release of good, the deliverance of good, to meet the evil. Peter was in that office, and he becomes a most interesting occupation, not with his failures, we have no time for that But I want the brethren to see this idea of restraint; that we have a weapon called 'good', with which to overcome evil. We all recall the incident on the holy mount, in Peter's glorious ministry, but there is one

thing the brethren may notice, that though he had this remarkable revelation, and spoke as he did here, he never spoke of it himself but once; he never uses the thought involved in it until he is about to die, that was in his second letter. It is to seek to show how we have the means of keeping things; "Keep", says Paul, "by the Holy Spirit which dwells in us, the good deposit entrusted", 2 Timothy 1:14. The Lord would have us keep this most precious thing. Paul kept his item in 2 Corinthians 12 for fourteen years how long Peter kept his, we do not know; which shows that we do not want to be resting unduly on one point of levitical service. There are levitical rules; that is, we are to learn to say what we are given of the Lord to say; it will keep; and it will come out, bringing in those thoughts, even when it does come; so Peter's matter came out in his second epistle, on the holy mount, from God as to His Son. Paul had the commission of the Son (Galatians 1:16), and of Christ "among the nations" (Colossians 1:27); he had the knowledge of the Sonship of Christ; his first preaching was on that (Acts 9:20), bringing to us in these modern times what perhaps our earlier brethren did not know. I urge the brethren to keep to the full thought of the Sonship of Christ, "God ... was pleased to reveal his Son in me", Galatians 1:15, 16. It was revealed to Peter, but to Paul it was a closer thing. We shall be there in the full thought of son-ship. Peter used his knowledge beautifully, but Paul even more so. The dispensation of sonship is the dispensation of the Spirit. It shines especially in Paul's ministry, "the Son of God, who has loved me and given himself for me", (Galatians 2:20); He was endeared to the heart of Paul. The thought of Peter enters into what I am saying as to binding and loosing, "And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of the heavens; and whatsoever thou mayest bind upon the earth shall be bound in the heavens; and whatsoever

thou mayest loose on the earth shall be loosed in the heavens" (verse 19). The Lord gave that to Peter, not even to Paul, though he does similar things; he binds people, and looses them, but he is not given the keys of the kingdom, though he did his work well. Peter brings this forward as he is about to put off his tabernacle, a thing that comes very near to us who are older; but we feel He is coming; the Lord says it to His bondman John, and hundreds and hundreds of years have elapsed because He has waited for us. We are all bound up in the Spirit; and let us wait on others, not that any should perish, but "that all men should be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth", 1 Timothy 2:4. The work of the gospel is a prime work, "for it is woe to me if I should not announce the glad tidings", 1 Corinthians 9:16. It is the time of the gospel; the work is being done, not in any profession, but let us each see to it that we perfect the work, not in any doctrinal sense, or creed of any system, but in Christ Jesus; that is where the perfection is. So to finish as to Peter, and what I had to say. How he must have had this thought before him, this lovely finish, "but having been eyewitnesses of his majesty", how he would delight in that word, for he loved the Lord; so he says (2 Peter 1:17), "This is my beloved Son, in whom I have found my delight; and this voice we heard"; it was the Father's voice; a fine thought in Peter's mind as he was about to depart, to put off his tabernacle, to be martyred, "another shall gird thee, and bring thee where thou dost not desire" (John 21:18); even if Peter did not seek it, he valued the privilege the Lord gave him of being a martyr. Now thirdly, in John 20, we have, not the binding, but the remitting; the Lord gives it to them as He breathed on them, He is going to commission them; it was a peculiar commission, and it has come down to us; it was not apostolic, it is for disciples (and if

we are anything spiritually, we are this!) to be in the power to remit sins, and surely we should be thankful to do so if we can; "whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted to them; whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained". There is nothing else, no conditions beyond that; the Lord says He is trusting them to act faithfully in His absence, because there is so much of the committing of sins, even in us who break bread, who have all this privilege, there is so much of this committing sins. But our great High Priest is above, and the Holy Spirit is here, if there is anyone who needs forgiveness, any who are not growing in the truth, the Lord at the top will inaugurate it for you, so that "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and cleanse us from all unrighteousness", 1 John 1:9. Well, there is the confession and the cleansing, the outcome of the Lord's own great service; and then we have the great High Priest above, and not only the High Priest, but we have Him as "the propitiation for our sins" (1 John 2:2); it is the great work of redemption, so that it is possible to have forgiveness because of His death. So in our verse it reads (John 20:23), "whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted to them; whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained". Now forgiveness must be touched on for a moment; it is a matter of the Lord's mind, and He is delegating it now, such forgiveness, to those who are saints, that the fellowship should be kept pure. If sins are committed, then there is forgiveness and cleansing. It all follows what He said through Mary of Magdala, of whom it says, "Mary who was called Magdalene, from whom seven demons had gone out", Luke 8:2. For in verse 21 He says, "as the Father sent me forth, I also send you"; He is speaking to His disciples as having already been told the message through Mary, involving that they were great morally; so He breathed into them the Holy

Spirit, in pattern, not the truth as at Pentecost, but He is showing them how intimate He is with them, so that the truth of the dispensation can go on. There must be the confession of committed sins, and then the cleansing. The commission was to remit sins; how can we be together in the fellowship and have love amongst ourselves unless there is this matter of forgiveness, for in remitting there is no more consciousness of it in the fellowship? It is in this passage these disciples are like us all, having moral authority to forgive sins; to confess them, but more, a commission granted by the Lord to forgive and remit sins. The fellowship thus goes on to the end as these things are looked after. If there is the remission, there is also the retention of sins; we cannot go on with people who will not judge themselves, for as appropriating each other, we are to join with each other in dealing with sin.

THE NEED OF LIFE IN THE CELEBRATION OF THE SUPPER

Acts 20:4 - 12

J.T. What is in mind is the need of life in this passage; it is not the main subject, but the leading subject. Much is made of the boy being brought away "alive", and they were no little comforted. The thought is not to enlarge on the Lord's supper, but to show the need of life in the celebration of it. The young who seek fellowship are in mind, whether they are living. The first epistle to Corinthians brings in the Lord's supper, and the second epistle has the same thought in mind, but links up the thought of life with it. Hezekiah says, "The living, the living, he shall praise thee" (Isaiah 38:19); so that the idea here is remarkable, and how it happened, and it has to be considered as needed to fill out the subject and make the Lord's supper what it should be in life and enjoyment. This chapter, it might be said, is the central chapter in this book. The truth rises till Paul comes to Ephesus in chapter 19, and then in this chapter he sends for the Ephesian elders because of his desire to speak to them. Paul had gone up to Jerusalem after his visit to Athens and Corinth, and "saluted the assembly" (Acts 18:22), and returning by "the upper districts" (Acts 19:1), shows how the Lord's supper is on the 'up-line', the line of life; but the twelve men at Ephesus were void of the Spirit, and undoubtedly this enters into this chapter, and indicates how essential the Spirit is, especially at the Lord's supper.

Ques. Is life in energy seen in Paul in descending and enfolding the boy in his arms and taking him up to his own level?

J.T. Yes, "for his life is in him", it says; it

may mean 'soul', in keeping with Elijah's great anxiety as to the boy in the house in 1 Kings 17, how he prays, "Jehovah, my God, I pray thee, let this child's soul come into him again!" (verse 21).

Ques. Is life seen in energy?

J.T. Yes, especially in Paul. The word 'descending' is very remarkable; the youth "fell from the third story down to the bottom, and was taken up dead. But Paul descending fell upon him, and enfolding him in his arms, said, Be not troubled, for his life is in him. And having gone up, and having broken the bread, and eaten, and having long spoken until daybreak, so he went away. And they brought away the boy alive, and were no little comforted". The energy is in Paul, in keeping with the whole position here; it is apostolic ministry.

Ques. In Acts 16:7, 8, it refers to "the Spirit of Jesus" there; does it then show that Troas is the focal point?

J.T. Just so; the Lord orders things with a view to an end, even in a combination of circumstances, so that the Spirit preventing Paul had an end in mind which is seen in the next verse, "There was a certain Macedonian man, standing and beseeching him, and saying, Pass over into Macedonia and help us. And when he had seen the vision, immediately we sought to go forth to Macedonia, concluding that the Lord had called us to announce to them the glad tidings" (verses 9, 10); the end is no doubt Europe, for the working out of the truth of the assembly. So that all the previous history of Europe comes into this, the thought of 'spreading' in Japheth (Genesis 5:32); that is as clear as it can be from the sequel. So the Lord's supper appearing in this particular chapter is undoubtedly to link up these matters. Verse 4 links on Paul's work, his own labours in these representatives; their localities are given; they are the produce of Paul's labours, and a living state of things is in

mind. There were seven of them, from different areas where Paul had worked. Here we see how life and light go together; it speaks of, "many lights in the upper room where we were assembled".

Ques. Is the Supper a time for feelings?

J.T. Yes; someone said as to America, 'the birds have no song and the men have no souls!' Maybe it is so; our souls are called into the matter.

Ques. Does the Supper pave the way for Paul to descend and enfold him in his arms?

J.T. Yes; there are no accidents in the divine record; all is to a definite end. Even though the Lord's supper is mentioned here towards the end of the book, it is mentioned in Acts 2:42, and again in verse 46, where it says, "and breaking bread in the house"; the breaking of bread was removed from the temple, indicating that external religion is of no account in the Lord's supper.

Rem. Mary puts soul and spirit together.

J.T. Yes; Elizabeth and Mary and Zacharias furnish wonderful examples of priesthood in Luke's gospel; it is essential for the Lord's supper, we are priests unto Christ as well as priests unto God. It is remarkable how these three at the opening of Luke's gospel pave the way, not for formal priesthood as Zacharias had been in, to carry on the divine service; firstly we have Elizabeth, and then Mary, as you quoted; her soul and spirit are in it, and her intelligence too; she is an intelligent priest; and so was Zacharias as time went on, for when asked what the child's name is to be, he says, "John is his name", and then he became a real priest; and that is what is needed so much.

Rem. The seven named men are Gentiles.

J.T. It illustrates Paul's doctrine, because he was apostle of the nations, and they accompanied him here, and no doubt the reference to lights is to them.

Ques. Are we priests of Christ at the Supper?

J.T. Yes, "for the priest's lips should keep knowledge", Malachi 2:7.

Ques. Would the twelve men at Ephesus not having the Spirit, be constituted priests as having the Holy Spirit?

J.T. Yes; Peter says so, "yourselves also ... a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God by Jesus Christ".

Ques. Would "we being assembled" be an evidence of life?

J.T. The word 'assembled' is not in the Authorised Version in verses 7 and 8, but it was that word as set out in the Lord Himself in Acts 1:4, where it says, "and, being assembled with them", to indicate to them how to assemble. We do "gather together", but that is not "assembling", for that is a greater thought, leading to the assembly in function.

Ques. Was it necessary that Eutychus was brought to life before they could break bread?

J.T. Paul saw that things were not right there.

Ques. Do we see the importance of time in the references to "five days", and "seven days" and finally in "the first day of the week"?

J.T. It was in Paul's mind. You can see in a group of brethren, as here, how order was in God's mind. It is current now, and has been a burning question, this order of the Supper, how life enters into it; it is a living state of things.

Ques. Would "not distinguishing the body" (1 Corinthians 11:29) be connected with Eutychus?

J.T. Yes, exactly; the direct discipline of God was invoked to meet the situation. Paul spoke most decidedly of their ways in the assembly; "But in prescribing to you on this which I now enter on, I do not praise, namely that ye come together, not for the better, but for the worse ... . For each one in eating takes his own supper before others, and one is hungry and another drinks to excess", 1 Corinthians 11:17, 21. Then

he goes on to tell us what he "received from the Lord" (verse 23), showing what irregularities there were; so we can well account for the long discourse in Acts 20.

Rem. It would be in contrast to what you spoke of this morning as to their order in Colosse?

J.T. It was just that, and at Corinth it was the very opposite. We are not told what Paul said here. The brethren were comforted as having the living boy. The doctrine is to be followed and put into practice.

Ques. Do we see the direct discipline of the Lord in "On this account many among you are weak and infirm, and a good many are fallen asleep" (verse 30)?

J.T. I am not sure whether it is the Lord's hand, or God's; but it is plainly stated there, that this matter is taken up. Chapter 10 gives us the public order, and chapter 11 the inward side, involving the severe discipline of God that fell on this company because of the irregularities there. "On this account many among you are weak and infirm, and a good many are fallen asleep. But if we judged ourselves, so were we not judged. But being judged, we are disciplined of the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world" (verses 30 - 32). It seems to me very plain that the judgment is direct from the Lord; it is very severe, even to death.

Ques. Would the conditions in Eutychus before he was raised be like those in Christendom?

J.T. I think that is right; we touched on it a little yesterday. There was not much to be seen, but it is the real thing, the work of God; to get at it is the thing; "for his life is in him"; he would not have been looking out of the window if he were living.

Rem. So Paul's service in verse 10 is like the Lord's in John 13.

J.T. Just so; it is very much like the Lord's own service, "Unless I wash thee, thou hast not part with me", John 13:8.

Ques. Why do we have the boy's name given?

J.T. It is in keeping with the divine way that what is of God is to be named, as in the creation. Adam was intelligent enough and named the animals, and so it is now; if a brother or a sister, let us find out their name.

Ques. Does this matter of naming things promote the living results?

J.T. Very good, and in keeping with what I am saying. The Lord takes the place of the last Adam; so He names Peter, "thou shalt be called Cephas", John 1:42. He was a person worth naming.

Ques. Is the basic work there, and the active energy of the Spirit enters into the matter now?

J.T. That is a very good suggestion and brings up the matter of Luke's second treatise, because it is a question of personality, and "Jesus began both to do and to teach" (Acts 1:1), brings up the work of God, what is done firstly, and then teaching based on it. In Luke 11 the Lord was praying, and one of His disciples asked Him to teach them to pray; the teaching leads up to the Father and His giving "the Holy Spirit to them that ask him" (verse 13). The Lord had worked before the Holy Spirit came, so He left it to see how the work of God in itself will act, so that the Spirit can be attached to it, and bring it into the assembly. According to Luke's statement in Acts 1:3 He was with them "during forty days", because they needed more instruction; it can be seen that according to Mark He goes up into heaven, and as far as the words go He went up at once. So when Peter stood up in Acts 1:15, how many names were there! There were "about a hundred and twenty" names; each had distinction; the work of God had made them that. Peter stood up and recounted as to Judas, and then that there was a missing apostle, and cites many things from the Psalms, showing how intelligent he was because the

Lord Jesus had Himself "assembled with them"; this is clearly shown. The Lord was pleased with the progress they were making before the Spirit came. The brethren should see that young people have the Holy Spirit before they break bread in order to have their affections right for the assembly.

Ques. Would Eliezer and Rebecca and the camels in Genesis 24 be seen in this?

J.T. Eliezer's name is not mentioned in Genesis 24; it is said "the man was astonished at her" (verse 21) he was a type of the Spirit, and so are the camels; there are many thoughts and much to indicate that the Spirit was to come. Rebecca answers exactly to the servant's prayer, and not only so, but gave drink to him and all his camels. It shows that she was not only a beautiful person, but a worker, too, to give drink to all those camels. Then there is this wonderment of the Spirit, too, not to belittle the Spirit at all, but how He has taken the place of the servant! New birth is one thing, but life by the Spirit is another thing.

Rem. "Let thy work appear unto thy servants", Psalm 90:16.

J.T. Quite so.

Ques. Would there be this basic work in Cornelius in Acts 10?

J.T. Yes; he had not the Spirit, but was building up a memorial in heaven.

Ques. Would our part in the Supper in life be patterned after the Lord in Revelation 1:17, "I am the first and the last, and the living one"? Should we be ready to move with Him?

J.T. Well, just that. Peter says in Acts 1:21, "It is necessary therefore, that of the men who have assembled with us all the time in which the Lord Jesus came in and went out among us", those movements, you mean? In John 14:18 He says, "I will not leave you orphans, I am coming to you".

Ques. Would "the third story" indicate a high level spiritually?

J.T. Yes; it would be from heaven: "This is the bread which has come down out of heaven. Not as the fathers ate and died: he that eats this bread shall live for ever" (John 6:58); but there was the downward move with the boy.

Ques. Would the Holy Spirit enable us to distinguish the body and would He link on with the disciplinary action?

J.T. "Not distinguishing" the Lord's own body in the Supper should be worked out in the spiritual body.

Rem. "The youths of the children of Israel"were available in a priestly sense (Exodus 24:5).

J.T. Yes, they were the priests; not the official priests, because Aaron was not called a priest until Exodus 28:1. We have to wait for the full thought of priest till after the Hebrew servant. "Aaron and his sons" means that they know what to do; the thought of love has been brought in among us by Him.

Rem. Paul expressed love in enfolding Eutychus.

J.T. He would indeed. Someone has called the Corinthian epistle 'the picture on the wall'; there is no life there; and so it is, life cannot be developed there; they are just children, but he wants men. Chapter 13 is the abstract thought of love, but not worked out in persons; the Lord wants the loveliness of persons.

Ques. So would 2 Corinthians 8 be like life working in the assembly?

J.T. Yes; the second epistle is based on life; the first is not that. It helps us to compare the two epistles.

Ques. Do we need spiritual sensibilities?

J.T. I think so; a boy is more alive under those circumstances; boys do not usually bring out comfort in these things.

Ques. Would living conditions be seen in the prison at Philippi?

J.T. The basis for love working out was seen there, Paul and Silas preached the word of the Lord.

Ques. What does Paul's embrace involve practically for us?

J.T. It is what he could do. He enfolded him in his arms; the human body is calculated to express warmth. It looks as if Paul's statement in verse 10 was literal, whereas the soul of the boy had gone, and he labours for its return.

Rem. "And they all wept sore" (verse 37) would be the answer to Paul's embrace.

J.T. It is a love chapter.

Ques. Is what is maternal seen in Paul?

J.T. Yes; and paternal, too, for they had not many fathers, so he was doing it.

Ques. Is the promotion of life in individuals a necessary part of the care of the assembly?

J.T. Both are true.

Ques. As to priestly service, would Leviticus 8:36 apply? "And Aaron and his sons did all things that Jehovah had commanded by the hand of Moses".

J.T. Very good. I believe the use of the word 'boy' is significant; there is another generation needed, and that is why Paul had to discourse and speak at such length. Verse 9 reads, "And a certain youth, by name Eutychus, sitting at the window opening, overpowered by deep sleep, while Paul discoursed very much at length, having been overpowered by the sleep, fell from the third story down to the bottom, and was taken up dead". It is left with us to decide whether there was not a low state at Troas, and these seven men, the result of Paul's ministry, are left to work it out; for a serious occasion took place, and in addition to Paul's discourse in verse 7, we have something like what he said in 1 Corinthians 11:30, "On this account many among

you are weak and infirm, and a good many are fallen asleep. But if we judged ourselves, so were we not judged. But being judged, we are disciplined of the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world". He says, as it were, you can see what is happening, how many are weak and infirm, and a good many are fallen asleep; he had to speak so long, and leave the matter; he must leave it, and count on God for better conditions; the boy is left as a witness to the power of apostolic ministry.

Ques. Is paying attention therefore much needed?

J.T. Yes; the thing was so serious.

Ques. Are we to have the records in the gospels as to the Lord's supper in our minds, but we are to be guided in what we do by Paul?

J.T. Paul's is the last word, and if we are to get at the truth of the Lord's supper, we are to get it from the last word from heaven, and then seek to see why there are apparent discrepancies in the accounts, as to remission of sins and other matters. We must consider these things, and bear in mind that Paul has the ministry of the glad tidings and the ministry of the assembly, and he completed the word of God; well, we are at the fountain-head! Luther and the other sects were baffled by the ministry of the glad tidings and by the ministry of the assembly as beginning with Paul; they never speak of Paul, but usually of Matthew.

CHRIST AND THE ASSEMBLY IN MARITAL RELATIONS

Exodus 2:15 - 22; Exodus 18:19 - 12

J.T. The word, dear brethren, is Christ and the assembly, but in the sense of His marital relations. These take varied forms in the types, seven at least being in mind, so that there is variety, and now it is thought that we should look at Moses as a type of Christ in His marital relations; we should therefore read from Exodus.

The teaching as to the assembly is linked up typically in large measure by the histories of the types of Christ in His marital relations. As He is considered thus, the feminine types of the assembly found in the Old Testament will, of course, come under review. This is not the thought now, but simply to think of Moses in this relation; but in order to understand Moses rightly in this sense, it is needful to link on the earlier types so that we may see the order entering into them, and how Christ is seen in His varied perfections as the Husband, as we may say, of the assembly. Firstly, Adam brings before us intelligence, for it is in connection with his intelligence that Eve is brought in. He had named the animals, Jehovah bringing them to Adam to see what he would call them. Now as the woman is brought to him, the remarks he makes can be transferred to the assembly: "This time", he says, alluding to the other times when he gave names, "This time it is bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: this shall be called Woman, because this was taken out of a man". There is intelligence in the naming.

Then in Isaac, among many other things there is the feature of leisure which marks him as Rebecca draws near. He is seen coming from the well Lahai-roi

-- indeed, it is a matter of coming and going, as if that well was in his mind, pointing to the Spirit in view of all that should follow. He is also seen meditating in the field, and then he sees camels coming, alluding to the power by which she was carried, anti-typically the power of the Holy Spirit by which we are carried to Christ. In a later chapter Isaac is seen dallying with Rebecca, all pointing to the idea of leisure in Christ's relations with the assembly.

Then Joseph, who is also a type of Christ in these matters, is seen as a man of great affairs, as married. According to Deuteronomy 24:5 a man who took a wife was allowed a year off, which means that the Lord now, instead of ruling the nations and administering publicly, is occupied with the assembly according to His love for it, for Christ loved the assembly, we are told; but Joseph is a man of great affairs, and he is made head of everything in Egypt except Pharaoh himself. So that the Lord is now to be understood in His marital relations as having great matters on hand, and successfully administering everything. If he had to meet his brothers, particularly Benjamin, it is at noon, as it were, lunch-time.

Now, as remarked, we are linking up Moses with these types, that we may see in him what feature of Christ is coming out at the present time; and it is to be noted that Zipporah comes in first. Moses also is seen in relation to a well as she comes into view.

Ques. What great feature does Zipporah set forth?

J.T. It is what she does not set forth in a sense that has to come before us, because there is very little of the spouse in her, and that is to bring out what there is at the moment for Christ. The facts are that Zipporah made little or nothing of Moses; she left him outside, and he is seen as engaged with her father's sheep. The idea of 'in-laws' comes into evidence at once: "And Moses tended the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian",

chapter 3: 1. While he is neglected by the one who became his spouse -- for she did not bring him in, but left him outside -- he is ready to look after her father's flock; in fact, he helped her and her sisters. It is said in chapter 2: 16, "And the priest of Midian had seven daughters; and they came and drew water, and filled the troughs, to water their father's flock. And the shepherds came and drove them away; but Moses rose and helped them, and watered their flock. And when they came to Reuel their father, he said, Why are ye come so soon today? And they said, An Egyptian delivered us out of the hand of the shepherds, and also drew water abundantly for us, and watered the flock. And he said to his daughters, And where is he? why then have ye left the man behind? Call him, that he may eat bread". That is what we get here; Zipporah comes into view in relation to these facts. Then in chapter 3 it is said that "Moses tended the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock behind the wilderness, and came to the mountain of God -- to Horeb"; that is, we have him administering in relation to his father-in-law's flock. Then in chapter 18 we read: "And Jethro the priest of Midian, Moses' father-in-law, heard of all that God had done to Moses, and to Israel his people; that Jehovah had brought Israel out of Egypt. And Jethro, Moses' father-in-law, took Zipporah, Moses' wife, after he had sent her back, and her two sons". So that now we are in the midst of facts that relate to Moses' marital life, Moses' family life, and we have to see where these typical facts come in at the present time that is, whether the brethren are really in them, and we shall see as we proceed that ultimately the main thought is the testimony of God. Zipporah was little concerned about it; we hardly get anything worth speaking of in that sense with her; and it is a question of our seeing now whether the assembly appears

in the circumstances as bound up with the testimony, engaged with it, and why the 'in-law' idea is in such evidence, instead of grace and love which are the great characteristics of this dispensation. It is a legal situation. Moses shines in it, and so does Jethro, but the wife hardly at all; and that, of course, would indicate that we are not much in the understanding of Christ and the assembly, the assembly viewed in the feminine way.

A.W.G.T. Are you suggesting that Zipporah represents what the assembly has been in her public history as not making use of Christ in His administrative ability?

J.T. That is exactly what is in mind; it is a question of where we are, viewed as the spouse of Christ, who, as we know, is engaged with the testimony of God. It is a continual matter with Him, and there are many, too, who are continually ministering the truth, preaching the word; but the question is how much is coming into evidence of the feminine thought of the assembly, for the primary thought is Christ and the assembly; the feminine feature is to be seen in her for ever, for she comes down as a bride adorned for her husband.

J.McK. Would the word in Romans 7:1: "Are ye ignorant, brethren", be a similar kind of challenge as to whether they were aware of the potentialities and possibilities of being to Another so as to bring forth fruit to God?

J.T. Just so; therefore the Roman position comes up, as we shall see -- more particularly the Corinthian position; but the Roman position comes up, and we have to infer what the feminine truth is in the epistle to the Romans. It is said that we are "to be to another" -- which is a suggestion of it -- "in order that we might bear fruit to God". But the best example is Phoebe: she is a concrete example of the feminine side of the assembly. Hence it is necessary

to look at the reference in chapter 16: "But I commend to you Phoebe, our sister, who is minister of the assembly which is in Cenchrea; that ye may receive her in the Lord worthily of saints, and that ye may assist her in whatever matter she has need of you; for she also has been a helper of many, and of myself". Then we have Priscilla, another example, but she is linked up intimately with her husband. Phoebe is the outstanding feminine character in Romans, and her characteristics are not in evidence in Zipporah.

Ques. Have you in mind the expression, "For she also has been a helper of many, and of myself"? And do you think Zipporah was lacking there?

J.T. Those are the facts; and yet the testimony is in view, and Moses is pre-eminently in view in the types as bound up with the testimony of God.

Ques. You speak of the testimony of God with reference to Moses: have you in mind what immediately follows in regard of the law?

J.T. The whole of his ministry is in mind, I would say. We get his history from childhood, from the outset right to the very minute of his death. He is seen bound up with the testimony of God, and showing how love regards heaven and the inhabitants of heaven, so to speak; for the territory of the twelve tribes is taken account of by Jehovah on mount Pisgah according to the names of the tribes as they are seen there. That is love as the great end of administration: we become absorbed with the saints as Christ is, according to His love for them, and ministry can only be valued rightly, however effective and able we may be, as it is actuated by love. You do not see that in Zipporah.

Ques. You would say that there is no lack on Moses' side?

J.T. See how outstanding he is as identified with the testimony; and no doubt it runs down in the

history of the assembly, marred by the public history, as has been alluded to; for there has been very little from apostolic days down to our own times.

Rem. The sons are born.

J.T. Well, the sons are there, but the love seems lacking. Zipporah has little or nothing to say about her sons; of course, they are there.

Ques. Would it be right to say that Zipporah really withstood Moses in regard of the matter of the inn and circumcision?

J.T. She was against him. That is one of the most remarkable things in Scripture: "Jehovah came upon him, and sought to slay him". The bearing of that is on Zipporah, because then she recognised that he was a bloody husband -- though she had reproach in that; it was needful that it should be understood that blood had to flow in the idea of the circumcision; it looks on to the circumcision of Christ.

Ques. Does that show how in the church's history there has been opposition to Him in regard of the church?

J.T. That is the idea. What opposition there has been in that which has the place of the assembly right up to the very end! But there is recovery in the book of Revelation in Philadelphia. There was love before in Ephesus, and so on, but the recovery is in Philadelphia -- real affection and care for Christ seen in care and love for the saints.

Ques. Is Moses' great concern in Exodus 2 that the flock should be watered?

J.T. That is one of the first things we get, showing that he was well worthy of the affection of Zipporah; but there was very little, as we see by comparing her with what is said of the virtuous woman in Proverbs 31, because the assembly is seen femininely in that chapter. "Her husband is known in the gates, when he sitteth among the elders of the land" (verse 23),

and the household is cared for in every way; so that love is the great point. If the saints are to be with the Lord in the testimony, it is a question of love. At Corinth it was hardly there at all, but it was there: "Though the more abundantly I love you, the less I be loved", the apostle says in 2 Corinthians 12:15, which is a very sorrowful thing; but the work of God was there, and that is, of course, true in this type; there was something there. Zipporah certainly looked after the two sons to some extent. But then we have the 'in-law' -- the legal position -- in her father and Moses' father-in-law. He was loyal to a point, and even Aaron comes with Moses to eat bread with him; that is, there are good relations in a legal sense; but, alas, the legal position is giving way now, because the Scriptures are being given up, and the testimony is being given up by that which should be the assembly.

A.W.G.T. You are thinking that Moses discerned the greatest defection on the part of his spouse, and that those things are written as types of us? The great thing is that we should not fail at the end in the affection that is due to Christ, and that works out in the care of the saints.

J.T. Exactly, it is a question of love: "Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me" (Matthew 25:40); it is a question of the feminine side being worked out in that sense.

Rem. Moses says, in naming his second son, "God is my help". He had not really got help from Zipporah. Phoebe was a helper.

J.T. Very good; whatever there was in her case was bound up with her father. We should recognise the legal position, of course. Brethren and young people recognise the lordship of Christ over them, in a formal way, it may be, but at any rate it is recognised. We are glad of that, of course, where we see

it; but then, where is the love? "Where is he? why then have ye left the man behind?" Jethro enquires in chapter 2. Moses had helped Jethro's daughters, but they had not brought him in. That is the position.

Ques. Is that how Jethro shines as one who is concerned? He enquired for Moses, as to why he was left out.

J.T. That is it exactly; it is the legal position, the 'in-law' position. That is, parents, brothers and sisters may serve, but the persons who are the objects of the service are more or less indifferent. That is really the position.

J.McK. Even in chapter 18 it is not Zipporah who makes the move.

J.T. It is the father-in-law: "Jethro the priest of Midian, Moses' father-in-law, heard of all that God had done to Moses, and to Israel his people; that Jehovah had brought Israel out of Egypt. And Jethro, Moses' father-in-law, took Zipporah, Moses' wife, after he had sent her back". Her father did the work. It seems to be intentional that what should be there with Zipporah is not there, and the question therefore is whether this applies at the present moment, whether in the case of the young people, the 'in-laws' -- the father, mother, grandfather, brother, sister -- are not relied upon instead of the persons who are the direct objects of the interest and service; they may be indifferent.

Ques. Is the suggestion that Moses is feeling all this, and his affections are not being satisfied, because little can be said about that?

J.T. Very often it is that wives turn out that way, for husbands need to be disciplined. No doubt Moses was disciplined through Zipporah. Then he had another wife with whom we are not now dealing, and she comes under the same head, because she was just a Cushite. There is nothing on her side to bring

out the true thought of the assembly; and the question is how that applies to us, and whether we are meeting the absence of feminine qualities in the marital relation spiritually.

J.A.P. What about the two sons: is there not a measure of fruitfulness?

J.T. Just so; Moses noted that. The word is: "Jethro, Moses' father-in-law, took Zipporah, Moses' wife, after he had sent her back, and her two sons, of whom the name of the one was Gershom -- for he said, I have been a sojourner in a foreign land -- and the name of the other, Eliezer -- For the God of my father has been my help, and has delivered me from the sword of Pharaoh". That is what the two sons would mean in the house every time Moses looked at them. I apply the thought at the present time: What do our young people denote? What comes before us as we see them? Here Moses carried the thought in his heart; it was his own experience with God of what God had been to him. That is good enough, so far as it goes, but what does it mean to the two sons?

A.J.G. Do you think that the name of the first son possibly suggests that Moses felt the lack of sympathy, and the name of the second expresses the feeling that notwithstanding that as a general condition, God was helping?

J.T. That is a helpful way of putting it. God is helping notwithstanding whatever may be in the mother or the sons.

A.J.G. Would it fit in with what you referred to as 'a little strength' in Philadelphia? Notwithstanding the general condition of little affection for Christ in assembly relations, there is something which God has wrought among the saints in that relation?

J.T. I would go with that thoroughly. God is helping; that is one of the most encouraging things wherever you go, though grievous things have to be

recorded, yet notwithstanding the general condition, God is working, and the word will be finally, "What hath God wrought!" (Numbers 23:23). God has his man; if Zipporah is failing, he is not failing; I mean, in general Moses is the outstanding man as representing the testimony of God.

Ques. Why had Moses sent her back? To bring her into evidence?

J.T. I suppose the conflict required it; it is somewhat obscure. What the scripture says is: "After he had sent her back"; it may be that it was in the sense of protection.

Rem. It is noticeable that the kiss is between Moses and Jethro.

J.T. Just so; that is well to notice. I think if we pay attention to what has been already said as to the previous types of Christ in general, we shall get help by contrast in this case, because we learn the truth by contrast very often, and the contrast between Zipporah and Rebecca, for instance, is very striking.

Rem. You mean that we want to have the positive before us so as to catch up something.

J.T. Just so. It is what you do not find in her that helps. It is negative, but because you have the positive in the previous types, you can seize the idea and work it out. We can work out the idea now, for it applies to us as much as in her case.

Ques. You were referring to Eve as a type of the assembly in Genesis 2; is there a link with Ephesians 1:23, "The fulness of him who fills all in all", which means that nothing is lacking?

J.T. That is the idea; so Adam has no complaint at first; he says, "This time ..." meaning that he has remembrance of what had happened before. There was always a void in regard of his affections, but he remembered what happened; God had suggested his naming the creatures, and he named them,

and God did not alter what names he gave them. Now when he comes to this wonderful creature, he says, "This time ..." You can see that his heart is full; you can see the idea of a great exclamation mark in his remarks. So the idea of what Eve was is carried down into the Ephesian epistle by Paul. What we find in Zipporah is almost entirely negative. Well, is it so? Where is that now? Is it not somewhat the situation today, that there is a great negativeness as to the feminine side in relation to the affections that belong to Christ in His rights over us?

J.McK. Is it striking that the Lord found the fullest sympathy in the house of a woman l I was thinking of the way the most precious features of the Lord's ministry developed in the house of a woman, as indicating the sympathy and spiritual responsiveness in the house of Martha.

J.T. Quite so. Of course, Mary is more than Martha; Mary is the feminine side in that position; we are told in Luke 10 that she sat at Jesus' feet and was listening to His word. That is what appealed to His heart. I believe that the prayer in the next chapter is to suggest that He did not find that in Martha: He needed to pray for her, for it immediately follows, "He was in a certain place praying", and the whole matter of priestly power and service is worked out from that in Luke. "As he was in a certain place praying, when he ceased, one of his disciples said to him, Lord, teach us to pray", meaning that he had right feeling; he was not selfish; he would not make much of anything that he might say in ministry; he would make much of what someone else said; he would rather another said it. So the Lord says immediately, "When ye pray, say, Father", and He runs on to the great point of the gift of the Holy Spirit on the principle of asking: "How much rather shall the Father who is of heaven give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?"

(chapter 11: 13). That is what I am sure is needed at present more and more: it is the teaching of the Lord as to the service of God, as to priestly power. So we have three cases in Luke worked out of that thought, not simply types, but actual cases of priestly power. The first is Elizabeth who recognised Mary spiritually, and the unborn babe recognised the voice of Mary, showing that the priestly element was there. Then Mary herself proceeds to answer what Elizabeth said, and shows how priestly she is. Elizabeth had said of her, "Blessed is she that has believed": it is not a question of 'in-law', but of real faith, for the dispensation of God is in faith, not in law, and the love that flows out of faith. So Mary said, "My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit has rejoiced in God my Saviour", and as she continues, she shows how priestly she is. Then there is Zacharias; although he had been dumb in the discipline of God for nine months, he is ready to officiate as a true priest, not a legal priest, an 'in-law' -- he had been that, and became dumb on that account through discipline -- but now he is ready to praise the Lord immediately. His thought is Christ, not John the baptist. John the baptist was just born, and the neighbours and the 'in-laws', so to speak, say that he should be called Zacharias. Elizabeth says, No: she is a real priest. Then they say, Let us ask his father; and he asked for a writing table, and wrote, "His name is John", and they marvelled at it; and he began his service as priest immediately. That is the point, dear brethren: it is the service of praise; because the great shortage is in priests, not exactly in preachers; Luke brings out this in a concrete way, not simply in a typical way; the real persons are there who can serve and praise God.

Ques. Your thought is that Jesus is not left outside now, but is brought in on that line?

J.T. Very good; Zipporah had left Moses outside.

Rem. There were good conditions on the feminine side when the testimony came to Europe.

J.T. Just so; Lydia is another example of the feminine side of the assembly.

Rem. Your exercise is that it may be maintained.

J.T. That where the shortage is, it may be furnished.

Ques. Would the service, seen in 1 and 2 Corinthians, of the fellow helpers -- as being under God, I suppose, be calculated to bring in these features, the lack of which you are emphasising? Bearing on what our brother Mr. G. said as to God helping us, it is to be seen that there are others, thank God, in that service as well.

J.T. That is a good idea. So in Philippians Paul speaks of the women as having helped.

Rem. I was thinking particularly of the legal side in Zipporah, seen also in the Corinthian saints.

J.T. I believe she is a type of the Corinthian position, and the matter was met in the second Corinthian epistle. Some of us have been speaking today of 'second' things, such as plagues that were repeated, and then second epistles. The second epistle rectifies, such as Peter's, and Paul's to the Corinthians certainly meets the situation. The apostle was ready to meet the situation fully in the sense of discipline when their obedience was fulfilled (2 Corinthians 10:6); that is to say, as we are subject, the Lord will come in and rectify everything.

A.J.G. How striking it is that in the second epistle Paul says, "I have espoused you unto one man, to present you a chaste virgin to Christ", as though he is touching the real secret of recovery.

J.T. That is very good; I was thinking of that this very day: "I have espoused you ..."; he does not go so far as to say she is the bride. John the

baptist speaks of the bride in the abstract: "He that has the bride is the bridegroom" (John 3:29); he does not say who the bride is, but Paul comes near it in saying, "I have espoused you unto one man, to present you a chaste virgin to Christ"; it is his action, showing how full the great minister was of the love of Christ for the assembly, and how he would furnish what He loved.

A.W.G.T. Does not what is seen in the ministers in the way of the sufferings and the feelings in which the ministry was carried on, bring in the ministry which brings about the full recovery of the Corinthian position in that second epistle?

J.T. Just so, no doubt through the new covenant being brought in, connected in the second epistle with the ministry of Paul -- "ministers of the new covenant", he says (chapter 3: 6), "not of letter" -- not of the 'in-law' thought -- but the real thing. The reality of the thing is in mind, and that is what is before us, because we are not living in the time of law but of grace; and it is important to be equal to the moment in which we are, which is not the dispensation of law but of grace. Hence way is made for love. I believe the first letter to the Corinthians is as if the apostle hung up a card on the wall because that was all there was. It was just a picture; therefore the idea of love is in the abstract in chapter 13 of the first epistle; but he is coming near it in the second epistle. So when his brother Titus arrives with good news of the Corinthian saints, he is cheered. That is the idea; the ministers are thoroughly in the thing. They are thinking of the void there is at the present time as regards feminine feelings towards Christ.

Ques. Is there not often a difficulty at the Supper in realising the feminine position? But if the feminine side and the enjoyment of it are touched, it leads to priesthood?

J.T. That is what I was thinking. The examples we get in Luke are very striking.

Rem. Moses would have appreciated the full affection of Zipporah.

J.T. No doubt; he is there at the very outset. Why was he so ready to help the women, and to help them so bountifully? Yet they were not up to it.

Ques. Was there a lack of affection with the Galatian saints, the apostle Paul feeling it so much? "Ye did run well", he says, Galatians 5:7.

J.T. Just so; that is another phase that could easily be worked into what we are saying, because it brings up the question of legality. It may serve us, but at the time of the Galatian epistle the apostle had to return to pure grace in types; Sarah is the type, she is our mother: "Jerusalem above is free, which is our mother", chapter 4: 26. We are coming to that through the principles set out in Philadelphia -- the question of "new Jerusalem" and what is written on the overcomer. It is the feminine side, and so Revelation 21 begins with "new Jerusalem, coming down out of the heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband". There is nothing about administration there, but from verse 9 onwards that chapter is full of the idea of administration, which is a question of love active in wisdom, knowing what to do, and doing it in love.

Ques. Would you say what position Rebecca holds in relation to Isaac?

J.T. What is seen is the way she answers the servant, because it is a question, not of Eliezer, but of the eldest servant of Abraham's house who is over all that he has. That is the person before whom Rebecca is shining. It is said that he wondered at her, she moving as a type of the assembly, showing how thoroughly the feminine idea was there; how

practical it is, too; she undertook to water even the camels.

R.G.B. Does this particularly test us in our day-today movements in our local settings as seeking to care for the testimony of God?

J.T. We have our care meetings, of course; the very name means that we have care for the brethren, but it has to be seen not only in the care meeting -- in the words -- for often those who say most are not the ones who look after the saints. It is a question of persons who care for them, with genuine feeling how they get on. So the eldest servant in the house of Abraham prayed, and then he himself marvels: everything happens according to his prayer, but he wonders at her. We shall see it presently when the Lord takes the assembly up: it will all be there, for He would not take us up otherwise, and we must understand how it can be in the abstract sense, and how it will come out in the result.

Rem. We should like to have the secret of that in our souls.

J.T. What have you to say about having it yourself?

Rem. What a joy it is to have His approval in that way.

J.T. "She hath done what she could" (Mark 14:8); that is perhaps the best expression of it. That referred to Mary of Bethany.

Rem. What Moses did, Rebecca did; Moses watered the flock, and Rebecca watered the camels.

J.T. Look at what she proposed to do! There was no sham with her. Think of the amount of water ten camels would need, but she undertook to supply it, and said also that there was plenty of provender for them, showing how broad and lavish her thoughts were, how womanly she was, how capable of ruling the house in the absence of her husband, for that is the position as brought before

us in Proverbs 31"Her husband is known in the gates".

Rem. It all shows up the poverty set forth in Zipporah.

J.T. The poverty is like the picture on the wall. The wife is there, but that is all you can say. There is more needed really than serving meals for the brethren; the feminine side must work out in more than that.

A.J.G. In referring to the servant's wonderment at Rebecca, do you mean that the more we are in the Spirit's appreciation of the assembly, the more we shall be incited to serve the saints in love?

J.T. Just so; we are thankful, of course, for the service of the sisters in connection with week-end meetings and the like; but then Rebecca means more than that: it is spiritual service that is needed.

Rem. Rebecca made haste to do these things.

J.T. Just so: "The king's business required haste", 1 Samuel 21:8.

A.W.G.T. Are you thinking of general service, or spiritual activity in the service of God?

J.T. That is the whole point, the other is incidental. We shall not need food, clothing or the like presently; it is a matter of what is being built up in our souls by example and by effort. So the word in Acts 1 is: "All that Jesus began both to do and teach", the doing is first and then teaching. So the actual servants, those who are ministering on the platform, serve well by doing first, then teaching. The idea is that what I teach I am doing before I present it in the way of doctrine or teaching; I am accustomed to do it.

J.A.P. You mean that it is carried out practically?

J.T. It is the idea of doing. In the second treatise by Luke this is how the Lord is brought in: "All that Jesus began both to do and teach": that refers to what is in the gospel of Luke, what He did

and what He taught. So the levitical position is in mind in the teaching. John makes much of teaching as well as Luke; but the teaching is exemplified in the doing: that is the thing.

Ques. Would Ezra be a fine example of that? He "prepared his heart to seek the law of the Lord, and to do it, and to teach", Ezra 7:10.

J.T. Ezra was a priest, of course, and he taught, too.

REVIVAL

Acts 11:19 - 26; Acts 13:1 - 12

J.T. This thought, that Paul represents, of the principle of revival in the history of the assembly, whilst not in any way detracting from the inauguration of the great system, yet in the completion of it awaited this advent. The apostles were stressed at the outset, of course only to the number twelve, a pattern afforded, and then they go on to the end, their names being in the foundations of the heavenly city. But from the outset it was evident it needed revival, as time went on correctness was needed. This is not a matter of mere history, but has present application that we should count on God for revival and for persons qualified to lead in it. I thought these passages serve to bring out these facts, so the scattering became the occasion of the intervention that we see here, and the spreading of the truth, the spreading of the movement. Up to this time the metropolitan thought, in the assembly at Jerusalem, more or less prevailed, but now the movement had gone beyond Jerusalem and took fresh character in Antioch. So these thoughts are intended to move us and to help us to see that it is a question of one generation passing away and another coming; Ecclesiastes 1:4. God uses what may be available at any time. So these passages show how this movement was signalised, first in Barnabas and then in Paul himself, the movement, of course, proceeding, and the incoming of the Gentiles at Caesarea, so that the apostles, the twelve are still in their place, their full place, Peter being used to bring in the Gentiles, but still Paul was the apostle of the Gentiles. So Peter served to link on the beginning with the present movement. Therefore there is no thought of a break

or schism, but continuance of the truth, of the divine movement, so that the movement is one. The assembly is the centre of it, not simply the apostles or one apostle, but the assembly. So the divine thought is glory to God "in the assembly in Christ Jesus unto all generations of the age of ages", Ephesians 3:21. Is that clear?

G.G. I think so. In that regard is it significant that what was preached at Antioch was the "glad tidings of the Lord Jesus", as though they had this assembly touch as the glad tidings were presented?

J.T. It will be seen that chapter 11 is in a way the completion of the primary suggestion, that is, what began with Peter's movement at Caesarea, and then the thought of love providing in a financial way to meet the need and how the collection for the saints became ultimately a matter of consequence and continuance, so the ministry of prophecy coming in is accentuated, but there is a break to bring out the work of the devil meeting all these things. Then the main subject is what is in Antioch -- the assembly was there, the full thought of the assembly, but that was at Antioch, not Jerusalem, no rivalry but variety and enlargement.

Eu.R. It was there as the result of the teaching of Paul and Barnabas for a whole year.

J.T. I suppose to bring out the completeness of the ministry that was introduced, particularly here intimating full time for any service of the kind to complete it, so the character of the material gave way to the influence of ministry, the influence of gift, and eventuated in a definite name which carried with it the thought of the Lord Jesus, that is Christians, the name being divine, it had come from God, it was special -- not only disciples but Christians, which I think ought to be borne in mind that the working out of the truth which took many years, was not in a moment. The period in Luke's account

would almost intimate that it was, but a long time was needed to bring out the great developments which were in mind. This name is to break off from mere Judaism. No doubt the thought of Bar-jesus, the fact of the discipline on him, was to suggest the abandonment on the part of God of Judaism for a season bringing in the Gentiles. Bar-jesus was to be "blind, not seeing the sun for a season", meaning it was not finality. Judaism will be resumed but in the meantime we have Christianity giving special distinction to the brethren stamped by the ministry of Paul and Barnabas.

Rem. It seems the preaching of the glad tidings of the Lord Jesus led up to this and laid the foundation for it. Would you help us so that we might preach in this way? It seems to be the ground work of all that is built.

J.T. "Announcing the glad tidings of the Lord Jesus". It is a peculiarly touching formative designation, "Lord Jesus". Paul says later, "No one can say, Lord Jesus, unless in the power of the Holy Spirit", 1 Corinthians 12:3. I am not so sure there is very much attached to it, except a touch of endearment. We have the "glad tidings of Jesus" in chapter 8: 35, and in the same chapter -- verse 5 -- Philip preached "the Christ" to them.

J.Ttr. There seemed to be fellowship between Antioch and Jerusalem at this time, sending out Barnabas, and it says it came to the "ears of the assembly".

J.T. It existed at the outset. Antioch was here, it comes in here in this chapter; and in chapter 8 the movement by Philip was signalised by the intervention of the twelve sending out two in view of the gift of the Spirit. That the Spirit was not given through the preaching of Philip was remarkable as if Jerusalem had to be fully acknowledged.

J.Ttr. You referred to the metropolitan idea.

J.T. The word 'assembly' is in the singular up to this time. In chapter 14 Paul and Barnabas chose elders in each assembly, which would mean that the assemblies henceforth should be on the footing of responsibility, not independent, but the idea of assemblies. The plural word in chapter 9 is questionable, but Paul in chapter 18 greets "the assembly" without saying which one (verse 22). As late as his service at Ephesus the metropolitan thought is there, but gradually disappearing. It must be transferred to heaven, Jerusalem above is the centre of everything for us now. Is that clear?

J.Ttr. The remark as to the "ears of the assembly" is interesting, does the assembly today have ears?

J.T. I should think so in principle. The brethren have what we call care meetings which are simple statements of fact. We have care and as having care we have ears to hearken to what is said as to assembly matters.

G.G. It is significant in our chapter we get, "They were gathered together in the assembly and taught a large crowd".

J.T. That would be the assembly in the sense of any local assembly. It was the assembly at Antioch. That ran through. You may not hear the assembly, that would refer to Jerusalem, but it holds now, meaning any local assembly has authority from the Lord in that sense, although we never forget that we are in broken times. But the Lord tells us He is thinking of the whole in Revelation. "I also will keep thee out of the hour of trial", Revelation 3:10. That refers to the whole assembly.

Ques. Would you say a word about Paul representing the principle of revival?

J.T. It is an allusion to what marked him at the outset before he was commissioned. He preached that Jesus was the Son of God and eventually became

active and energetic in the testimony to promote the revival. These verses indicate plainly there was a revival. This whole year's service in which Paul was the leader eventually would indicate the movement in heaven. The brethren will remember the force of the word 'called' here, it is not simply an ordinary word but of divine origin, divine pronouncement, meaning a distinct stamp had been placed on the work of God at that time, and that work continued. There must have been continual impressions left, original impressions which we do not get now. Thoughts now are not different from what we have had before because the word of God has been completed. So the Lord would help us to be aware and cognisant of what is going on in a distinctive character, that we are dealing with a great matter, not to call attention to ourselves, but great people are involved.

Ques. Would a revival of this sort bring in a large crowd of intelligent persons and lead to distinctiveness in chapter 13?

J.T. Just what I was thinking. The verses in chapter 11 bring in Paul. He is mentioned last in the list in chapter 13, but he comes to the front. It says, "Paul and his company" in verse 13, which is a definite expression. No one would attempt to suggest anybody had a company now, no brother, however gifted. So here we are in a time of the beginning, the inaugural state of things, so he and Barnabas chose elders in every assembly.

Rem. It was a new departure in the ways of God, in bringing the Gentiles in.

J.T. In the sense in which we are saying it is not exactly new, for the Gentiles were brought in from Caesarea, but it is new in the sense of apostolic ministry. Barnabas is called an apostle, too. None had such authority as Paul, such a wide area of subjects, the ministry of the assembly, the ministry of reconciliation, and the ministry of the gospel and

one or two others. So we can see at once this section is revival and yet in a sense not a revival but a continuance of the truth, in the sense of great addition.

Rem. The circumstances seem to call for a man like Paul, so that the crowd twice mentioned are formed by example into the assembly. They would know of his "ways ... in Christ" (1 Corinthians 4:17), and his "intelligence in the mystery of the Christ" (Ephesians 3:4).

J.T. And that was augmented by special attendance, Titus and Timotheus stood out and continued.

Ques. The fact that he spoke to Greeks -- what would you say about that?

J.T. Not simply Jewish converts but Greeks, as if God was affecting the Pagan world, not only that, but possibly to bring out the language in which He intended to distinguish the written testimony. He is the God of the Gentiles and could use them at His pleasure. But what we come to now should stress what was at Antioch. "There were in Antioch, in the assembly which was there, prophets and teachers" whose names are given and Saul is the last. The Holy Spirit stresses Himself as God, not simply as sent down from heaven, but as God, for it says, "As they were ministering to the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, Separate me now Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them". I have called them. "Then, having fasted and prayed, and having laid their hands on them, they let them go. They, therefore, having been sent forth by the Holy Spirit", showing the Spirit is stressed in this section. It would seem that it is suitable it should be so, that at such a juncture the Spirit should assert Himself in sending out these servants to the Gentiles.

Eu.R. Each Person in the Deity seems concerned in the assembly; it adds great lustre to it.

J.T. Thus God protects the truth of the Deity,

whilst maintaining the economy set out in order to meet a certain end, yet the Deity is Itself protected in our minds.

Ques. On what kind of occasion do you think this took place? "As they were ministering to the Lord and fasting".

J.T. I think it was to develop the thought of the service of God which has become very prominent with us lately, involving the Lord's supper; although it is not mentioned here, it comes in later. The service of God is being set out in the order of it, the order in which divine Persons have part in it. There is not the same order in the early chapters, the service went on but not with such definiteness. It acquired no such distinction in Acts 2 but under Paul it did and does yet. It still retains its distinction as at the beginning of the service.

Eu.R. Ministering to the Lord and fasting involves priestly service.

J.T. I am sure. Whether the Lord is Christ or Jehovah -- I think it is the Lord Jesus. We are said to be priests unto Christ, so the service in the Lord's supper can continue by itself and yet not separated from the main service, but as it were a section in it.

Eu.R. He has made us priests.

J.T. But we are made priests unto Christ too, so that the Lord has the thing for Himself.

J.Ttr. Does the Holy Spirit speak in this way today?

J.T. I would think so. I think that all the divine Persons speak distinctly. It is a question of our discernment whether we are able to see and discern the Father's voice, and the Son's voice is to be discerned, and the Spirit's voice, too, is to be discerned. We could hardly carry on intelligently without recognising these things. The Lord is giving more character to the meetings and the parts of the services, so I think brethren are more intelligent

in it and it is right to seek to continue in intelligence in view of our eternal part.

Rem. These two great servants in the matter of revival do not enter into it voluntarily. Barnabas was sent from Jerusalem and Paul was called into it.

J.T. Showing the sympathetic cohesion in the services. Barnabas was sent from Jerusalem and he sought out Paul. And then Paul went to Jerusalem to make acquaintance with Peter, showing the strong fellowship and unity that marked them, which should mark us now, for national feeling tends to disrupt these things. "Jerusalem above", it says in Galatians 4:26, "which is our mother", is our one common centre.

J.McK. Does this fit into Ephesians 2 where the apostle speaks of "the foundation of the apostles and prophets"? Then the apostle goes on to what is made known concerning Christ and the assembly by the power of the Spirit, the great opening out of the assembly springing out of that.

J.T. That is very suggestive, and the great place Paul had in all that is in mind. That ye may understand "my intelligence in the mystery of the Christ", not the intelligence of the twelve but "my intelligence". The Lord gave him that place in the affections of the brethren. And though he is not in the foundations of the heavenly city, he is in the inner side -- that ye might "be strengthened ... in the inner man", Ephesians 3:16. The inward side is to be kept in mind, because Paul says, God "was pleased to reveal his Son in me", Galatians 1:16. With Peter it was to him. So the inward is taken up by Paul and enlarged on.

Eu.R. This would stimulate the meetings for prophetic ministry.

J.T. I am sure. That is what God has helped us in.

Eu.R. "The Spirit speaks expressly" -- that is in

view of the apostate state coming in. We need this prophetic ministry locally more than ever.

J.T. Quite. So the Lord has helped us to apply the thought of prophetic ministry to these meetings. For there should be an element of authority in the ministry if the character of it is kept in mind. Therefore in 1 Corinthians 14 the great point is "rather that ye may prophesy". So the question of the prophetic character -- "the hill of God" which is alluded to in 1 Samuel 10:5 -- comes in that chapter, "If therefore the whole assembly come together in one place". It is the whole assembly, the whole idea, as if God would indicate there is authority. He has authoritative speaking, and the assertion of the truth, so that the temple of God comes into it. "Do ye not know that ye are the temple of God?" (1 Corinthians 3:16). The same idea you see in Ephesians 2:21 -- it "increases to a holy temple in the Lord". It is in view of unfolding the mind of God in a coming day. The assembly is in view of that.

Rem. This thought of Barnabas and Saul being called comes through the Holy Spirit making a distinct impression on one vessel present?

J.T. That is what I understand. The Spirit did not become incarnate so He speaks through someone in whom He dwells, but it is His speaking.

Rem. It seems to give the Spirit room to operate in what is levitical. He speaks in relation to sending forth these two men for further work thus linking the work of God elsewhere.

J.T. So the work is one whole. "There is one body and one Spirit, ... one hope ... one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in us all", Ephesians 4:4 - 6. It is all one thing. All that should be stressed in ministry, especially prophetic ministry, so that what is said here will be said in Australia.

Rem. So that what is done by the Spirit is done mediately.

J.T. The assembly has ears as viewed as universal.

Rem. As this finds expression and is worked out in the saints, what once has owned His name and proves to be apostate will be left. The Lord has that in which He operates.

J.T. The brethren ought to understand that. In the Lord's address to Philadelphia, the assembly is there and in His mind it is functioning, and He says, "I make them of the synagogue of Satan ... I will cause that they shall come and shall do homage before thy feet, and shall know that I have loved thee". The Lord was thus distinguishing what was of Himself, and exposing what was not. So the revelation through John, the Apocalypse, provides for all these matters. The apostate thing will be judged according to their judgment. "God has judged your judgment upon her", Revelation 18:20. This is a great matter; what we are dealing with now, God will deal with presently, and He is taking account of what the brethren are saying and what they are praying about. He has not given up the primary thought. He has not altered one iota of His thought of the assembly.

Rem. So a designation is given to this man -- a false prophet, such are to be banned.

J.T. That is the thought. It is a Jew. But in the epistle to the Hebrews there is the assertion of apostasy as in chapters 6: 4 - 8 and 10: 26 - 31, etc. Things are being defined so that we can distinguish. God has been working politically to distinguish things amongst the brethren. As the end draws near the thing is there. That gives great advantage to the brethren to carry on in prayer, able to see that God is recognising the powers that be for a purpose. This man has a certain link with Jesus, I suppose - Bar-jesus. He was a "magician (for so his name is

by interpretation)" -- we can see the idea of interpretation -- "opposed them, seeking to turn away the proconsul from the faith". It is a political matter with him. He would turn him away from the faith.

Eu.R. What have you in mind?

J.T. It is a political title. Any man working on these lines, we would have our eye upon him. We can identify the thing here by the thought of interpretation. It is rather he is carrying on with the outward thing, that God has owned, for instance the Church of England is an institution God has owned. No spiritual man wishes it overthrown, not that he would in any way support it.

Eu.R. It is of service and going on till the Lord comes.

J.T. Quite so.

Rem. Saul says, "O full of all deceit and all craft son of the devil, enemy of all righteousness wilt thou not cease perverting the right paths of the Lord?" His name is in condemnation.

J.T. You can read a political position in what he says. At the same time Paul is an apostle of Jesus Christ and naming things in that light. What a great matter it was that the proconsul should be secured. They went the whole length of the island to secure him. He marvelled at the teaching. These religious systems are nothing compared with the assembly.

Rem. Saul's name is changed here to Paul. There is intelligence in his new name.

J.T. It is character, I think. The Spirit of God is calling attention to what Paul is characteristically, not simply his name. The meaning of the name Paul is 'little'; he is "less than the least of all saints", Ephesians 3:8. That is what he says of himself.

Rem. It is the inwardness that is there, and he is fearless in using the Lord's name.

J.T. "Wilt thou not cease perverting the right paths of the Lord?"

Eu.R. There is much of this mist and darkness around. Should we not seek to be on the lines of "Paul and his company" in verse 13?

J.T. The Spirit of God distinguishes him in that way, having a company. He speaks of himself "being such a one as Paul the aged", Philemon 9. There is a distinction attached to him that no one else has. So a great servant said, Cleave to Paul, do not forget John but cleave to Paul, he is teaching the last word from heaven, the last word for many things, especially the completion of the word of God.

Rem. This principle of revival stands connected with Paul.

J.T. I should say so. Hence the long discourse at Troas. We are not told what he said, but it was accompanied with revival. Of the boy Paul said, "His life is in him". It was the resuscitation of the testimony in mind. "They brought away the boy alive, and were no little comforted", Acts 20:12.

COMPLETION OF DIVINE SERVICE

Hebrews 2:10 - 12

J.T. From the facts before us in Holy Scripture, it will be seen that the completion of divine service was in the teaching of the apostle Paul. That was in mind to begin with, and one thought that these verses would indicate what the service of God implies. The passage already quoted here in prayer from Philippians 3:3 helps, too, "We are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God, and boast in Christ Jesus, and do not trust in flesh". Man's way is to be disregarded, for however embellished and ancient, it is man's way. I was thinking that whilst Paul's ministry had been rightly touched on -- for this undoubtedly is his epistle, it bears the character of being his -- the service of God was not clearly inaugurated as we have it now. The scripture would indicate it now. It was not indicated at the beginning of Christianity nor is it clear that the idea of the Lord's supper was primarily attached to it at the outset. It takes years to develop the truth of the service of God and we have it now indicated in the Scriptures which they did not have at the beginning. The New Testament did not exist when the Spirit of God came, sent down from heaven, and wrought in the apostles. It says of the converts on the day of Pentecost, "They persevered in the teaching and fellowship of the apostles, in breaking of bread and prayers", Acts 2:42. But there is no evidence that there was any great distinction of formula which marked the times although the Spirit of God was there and there was worship, of course. There were priests, they praised God, they served Him, indeed the apostles entered into the temple, "and were continually in the temple praising and

blessing God", Luke 24:53. The temple was there and recognised, for so much had to be taught so that the saints should be delivered from man's way. Then the temple had to be discarded. The Lord said, "Not a stone shall be left here upon a stone which shall not be thrown down", Matthew 24:2. That was to make way for the new structure, the spiritual structure as it is said in 2 Corinthians 6:16. "Ye are the living God's temple". The Corinthian saints were said to be that by Paul. It would be, no doubt, he who wrote this epistle to the Hebrews, in which much is unfolded which rightly enters into the service of God.

So it is that these verses would help us as we look at them. Verse 10 reads, "For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things", that is God, "in bringing many sons to glory, to make perfect the leader of their salvation through sufferings". Then we have verse 11 alluding to our sanctification. "For both he that sanctifies and those sanctified" -- that is the saints, ourselves, all the saints -- "are all of one; for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, saying, I will declare thy name" -- that is the Son speaking to the Father, "I will declare thy name to my brethren; in the midst of the assembly will I sing thy praises". It seems as if we may find here the service. Whilst the Lord's supper is not included it is clear that it was included in the service as the truth was opened up, for the Spirit of God tells us through Luke that the saints came together the first day of the week to break bread; Acts 20:7. They broke bread in the houses in chapter 2, meaning the ordinary dwellings of the saints as over against the temple. It does not appear that the Lord's supper was ever celebrated in the temple. There is no evidence that it was. But in Acts 20 it had acquired a place on the first day of the week, and the other elements of divine

service would also take place then, for the day would be suitable, the day the Lord rose from the dead. It is called the Lord's day, and we have a similar expression, the Lord's supper. The Father has given all things into the hands of the Son, so we may be sure the service of God is in His hands. The Lord's supper is first in the order of it, and praise to Him, and then to the Father, to God. That is what was in my mind. I think the Lord would encourage us as to the service of God and confirm us in certain features that have come into evidence through the ministry that the Spirit has given.

Rem. Psalm 22 would support what you have said. That is the source of the quotation in Hebrews 2.

J.T. It is. It shows how, as we might expect in this epistle, the book of Psalms had a place in the service of God from the outset. It shows how the book of Psalms was contributory to the service of God as we have it.

G.G. Would you say the Lord's supper is the great hinge-pin on which the work of God stands?

J.T. That is what I understand, although it is not clear that it had acquired that place at the start. But the apostles are appealed to, alluded to, as the authoritative persons, not Moses but the apostles. The converts, especially on the first day of Peter's service of preaching at Pentecost, the apostles were alluded to at once as the authority and not Moses or David. "They persevered in the teaching and fellowship of the apostles, in breaking of bread and prayers". So it would look as if there was in the minds generally the idea of breaking of bread and prayers. The word in Philippians 3 is intended for public worship, that is what we have now in our services. The worship of God took form as a public matter, as the Lord's supper has taken form as a public matter. The order in which things are to appear in the service is generally a matter of instruction

and the Lord has been for years instructing His people through the apostles' teaching. Things took form by the apostles' instruction, but more recently on the principle of gift. The Lord has ascended and given gifts to men; Ephesians 4:8. The idea of service took form. What we have now is authoritative.

Ques. As having come in recently, about a hundred years ago?

J.T. I go back to Paul. Paul distinguishes between the place of breaking bread and the houses, "Have ye not then houses for eating and drinking?" (1 Corinthians 11:22). The truth gradually becomes clear from year to year, from day to day. Breaking bread in the houses would mean that the Spirit of God had diverted the saints from Judaism. He was delivering them from it. This epistle is intended to deliver them from it.

G.G. So what came before us this morning in 1 Corinthians 11:23, "For I received from the Lord" is a very special point in the development of this matter.

J.T. That is good. That is subsequent to what the apostles had in Acts 2. Paul's message from the Lord had some things spoken of in the gospels, and added something else to what the gospels had. So there was a gradual adjustment in that nothing was given up which had been held but teaching gradually modified things.

G.G. It seems a great matter we should be livingly connected with what is authoritative. It is carried over from Luke where apostles are mentioned, and now Paul received this special word from the Lord.

J.T. It helps us as to the whole of Scripture. "Every scripture is divinely inspired, and profitable for teaching, for conviction, for correction, for instruction in righteousness", 2 Timothy 3:16. That would enter into the latter phase -- instruction in righteousness. So that Paul's exclusive message

from the Lord for the brethren, especially the Corinthian brethren, would be the last word as to the Lord's supper, and helps us to see that the apostolic teaching is the last word in all matters. Whatever is found in apostolic teaching should be the final word in matters.

G.G. It is a vital matter. It produces great stability in what is pleasing to the Lord and thus enters into God's service.

J.T. One would be glad if the brethren would be free to say what they think about it, for unity should be with us. Paul says, "thus I ordain in all the assemblies", 1 Corinthians 7:17. There should be a unified teaching and learning. "They shall be all taught of God", John 6:45. God teaches according to what is true, not diversely from Himself.

Rem. You base what you do in the morning meeting on the words of the apostle, rather than Old Testament scriptures?

J.T. Yes, but the Old Testament scriptures afford much that is not found in the New Testament, especially in the Psalms. This Psalm quoted here in verse 12 is the 22nd. Undoubtedly the book of Psalms, divided into five books, was intended to fit into the service of God as it was then. David was employed to arrange the Psalms in view of the service of God. We have singing referred to here. So we should be very cautious against eliminating anything in the Old Testament. All Scripture is for instruction. When we come to what is final, Paul says it was given to him to complete the word of God; Colossians 1:25. Therefore whatever deals with discipline, we should see from Scripture what confirms us in regard to discipline, and so in regard to the service of God.

Rem. Many sons being brought to glory is consequent upon the Lord taking His place amongst His brethren.

J.T. It is intended by the writer of this epistle

to stress that God is the Author of everything. The economy into which He has come, is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, God "is over all, and through all, and in us all", Ephesians 4:6. So what is written is for us from God. Everything has been placed in the hands of the Lord Jesus Christ, as it is said, "The Father loves the Son, and has given all things to be in his hand", John 3:35. The whole service is under Him, as this epistle says, He is Minister of the sanctuary; chapter 8: 2. The service relating to God is under Christ. So this verse 10 would be under Him as Minister of the sanctuary. God is bringing many sons to glory, so that it became God to make the Leader perfect through sufferings. So that the Lord is therefore before us in God's service as the Sufferer, not in any sense imperfect at any time but He has attained to a certain condition, reached through sufferings, which was due to God; redemption had to be wrought out, so things are set on a sure foundation. Hence God is the Author of His service, He is the One to be served, so sonship comes in in the service. But verse 11 is the Sanctifier. Christ is our Sanctifier. The One who is said to be the Leader or Captain is the Sanctifier in verse 11. In verse 12 He is the Singer in the assembly. So the order can be easily pieced in. We include the Lord's supper, the Sanctifier, the brethren, Christ's own part in it and then the assembly, the Lord Himself being the Singer in it, and God Himself being the Object of the whole service.

Rem. There is a great deal in Hebrews about the service.

J.T. It is a great epistle for contribution to the service.

Rem. The service is divine and the order divinely provided for.

J.T. The order in which the service comes before God now.

Ques. Had you in mind to say a word about that?

J.T. I have already indicated it. The Lord's supper is first. "We being assembled", Luke says, by the Spirit of God, 'we' meaning the saints.

Ques. How does the Lord have His place afterwards, helping in the service?

J.T. It is to bring into position the general facts that the Lord had done much before He went up to heaven, but there is more to be done. He says, "He that believes on me, the works which I do shall he do also, and he shall do greater than these, because I go to the Father" (John 14:12) -- because He went to the Father and because the Spirit should come. So there were forty days after His resurrection, which forty days were needed to prepare for the Spirit. It was intended that what the Lord had done should be seen in its perfection. Forty days' work was to be seen in its perfection, but it could not be completed until the Holy Spirit came. So the forty days were needed and we can see what is related, the brethren were progressing in what they were doing. At the time of the Lord's own death, and after He was raised they were very crude because they were unbelieving. He upbraided them with their unbelief. The Lord had to adjust them and He did before He went up. But they soon came into knowing how to do things and He intended that should be known. So we are told first of all what happened after the Lord went up to heaven. He went up from the mount of Olives according to Acts, from Bethany according to Luke, but Acts is that the spiritual side is to come into evidence, so they came from the mount of Olives and went to the upper room, meaning that from the very outset Judaism was superseded, for the representatives of the Lord were said to be resident in the upper room, and the Lord's mother was there, and several brethren, and Peter stood up in the midst

of them. We are told how many there were. It is a question of their names. Peter stood up and related what had happened to Judas in a most orderly way, and it was settled that two should be nominated so that the twelfth place should be filled. The Lord left it with them undoubtedly to bring out what was there, His own work in them. So Peter related, it was needful that of the men who had been with them, "who have assembled with us all the time in which the Lord Jesus came in and went out among us", one should be a witness, showing that they were growing in the use of language. All that indicates there was growth in the brethren before the Holy Spirit came down, which is an important fact. So they nominated two and Matthias was selected. On the principle of lot the matter was put into God's hands, and the lot was used "and the lot fell on Matthias, and he was numbered with the eleven apostles". I am only mentioning all that because I think it is necessary to get it in our minds to get our subject before us. The matter was settled as to apostleship and ten days elapsed before the Spirit came down. Then we have Peter's address and the statement that the converts, about three thousand, "persevered in the teaching and fellowship of the apostles, in breaking of bread and prayers".

Rem. They are an intelligent company in the upper room instructed in the use of words. It is remarkable they should be instructed in right words in the service of God. Were you going to lead on from that point where they break bread from house to house? Paul led them further.

J.T. The idea of the service of God was there but it waited perfection in Paul's ministry. The Lord intended Paul's teaching to be our standing.

Rem. The Lord is to have His place after the breaking of bread. Would the service be greater if He were given His place, before leading to the Father?

J.T. That is what has come now. I would like to hear what the brethren have to say.

Rem. This word 'again' linking the scriptures together in verse 13, does that denote the way divine teaching is used to open up the service of God? You have spoken of the need of teaching.

J.T. Quite. If you visualise how it would be amongst the Jewish disciples when this epistle was written, you can see how each addition was needed. Many things in this epistle were not said at all before as far as we know, especially the ministry of the sanctuary. In chapter 8 summing up the previous part, the writer says, "Now a summary of the things of which we are speaking is, We have such a one high priest who has sat down on the right hand of the throne of the greatness in the heavens; minister of the holy places and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord has pitched, and not man". Now this is alluding to the service of God and what form it would take now Christ has gone into heaven. What they had been at Jerusalem, well, we can gather, but now we are clearly presented with new ministry and a new Minister, and a Priest who inaugurated it all and sustains it all and is carrying it on day by day, week by week.

Ques. Is that why Paul's ministry is especially for us?

J.T. It is he who takes a lead in his writings in all these matters, especially Corinthians alongside Hebrews. The epistles to the Corinthians are the fullest and most elaborate and defined as applying to Gentiles. The writing to Corinth is in view of Gentiles coming into the truth. Hebrews is largely derived from the Old Testament but made intelligible to us so as to be understood. The Church of England has its terminology. We need to get our terminology from Paul. He deals with the people of God as children. He begins at the bottom and that is an

advantage to us that he does. We can put ourselves in the position of children; we can follow his way.

G.G. That is a very encouraging matter and particularly in the light of the epistle we are considering, for if we have this new Priest and the true tabernacle and the new sanctuary, we should be concerned to come in as new worshippers intelligently. I should like to ask, referring to what is fundamental, whether the long discourse of Paul in Acts 20 might be taken to cover his ministry which would lead to conditions where we can rightly take the Supper.

J.T. The absence of facts as to the discourse is all the more to be noticed. It must have been something he had spoken of elsewhere and now saw the need of putting before the saints in that particular place, though possibly making Ephesus the centre of it. What happened at Troas seems to link on with the whole chapter. They are taken up as representing the whole assembly. Now Paul says to the Ephesian elders, "And now I commit you to God, and to the word of his grace". He opens up what he had taught them at Ephesus, and undoubtedly the record at Troas is to govern the assembly at that time, and is prophetic in view of the long history in the middle ages, and leads to revival in our own time.

G.G. You are referring to Ephesus, that is confirming, I think.

J.T. It was a question of God. They brought away the boy alive, that was after Paul's discourse, and after they broke bread. So they are left with his discourse and the boy. The discourse would be what would develop from the Scriptures, but we must have the living boy. That is a person who can be built up and made a man of. "Until we all arrive at ... the full-grown man", Ephesians 4:13. One feels we are in the midst of a revival. Many amongst us have been speaking about it all our lives, it is about a hundred and fifty years old and is running on yet and will do

to the end. It is representative of the idea connected with Paul, but it is continuing. It is a revival of things.

Rem. It is maturing and will continue.

J.T. It is hoped therefore by exhortation and example to keep the saints going.

Rem. Would this epistle help that?

J.T. Very beautifully. The quotations from the Psalms so beautifully refer to Christ. One has designated the book of Hebrews 'The Book of the Open Heavens'. The Son of man is in heaven.

Rem. The service is dependent on the perfect Leader and the perfect ministry, so that it should be a perfect service.

J.T. So in Hebrews we arrive at perfection because it is a divine Person. So "God having spoken in many parts and in many ways formerly to the fathers in the prophets, at the end of these days has spoken to us in the person of the Son" (Hebrews 1:1, 2) brings down the service to the present time. It is God in that Person, that Person being divine, He has the last word in everything. So the whole chapter relates to His Person. He honours His people by quoting their sayings and all tending to exalt Christ. The book brings out the glories of Christ, especially in relation to the service of God.

G.G. How does the matter of salvation come in? "Their salvation", what is the bearing of that?

J.T. Anything they needed to be saved from. At that time it was Judaism.

Rem. Anything that hinders the service of God.

J.T. We need to be saved from it. In chapter 2 it is the "great salvation" involving redemption.

Ques. What is the thought of 'brethren' in chapter 2?

J.T. It was hoped we might get the order of the service, so that we might see in the service what relates to ourselves to begin with because we meet

together in assembly. We assemble together, the Lord is not supposed to be there because He would make way for the work of God in us. We celebrate the Lord's supper in His absence to call Him to mind. If He were in the midst there would be no need to call Him to mind. It is a memorial He has devised and left with us. A brother places the ingredients on the table and we are all there, we assemble with ourselves. The Lord is pleased if we do things rightly and then He comes in. In Acts 1:21 it says, "the Lord Jesus came in and went out among us". The apostle who was to be nominated was to be one who was accustomed to that. We learn to assemble, set in relation to one another, persons having the Holy Spirit and who love one another. The Lord comes in because we are attractive, so to speak, to Him, and we are attractive to Him, that is the way the matter stands. It is a great matter to understand and value one another, so that we are worth while to come to. The Lord thinks we are worth while to come to.

Ques. What would help us to recognise the Lord when He does come in?

J.T. That is the next thing, whether we have discernment for it, and all of us would say, "It is the Lord". That is what they said at the beginning.

Rem. We appropriate one another as His brethren.

J.T. First I would say as disciples, "We being assembled". It does not designate us by any terms. The writer is Luke. He was one of them. "We being assembled", and then what comes in is the breaking of bread. But it was in abeyance for Paul discoursed at length, much was needed to be said.

Rem. "By this shall all know that ye are disciples of mine, if ye have love amongst yourselves", John 13:35.

J.T. It is our relation to one another first and then our relation to Him. We cannot be there hating one another, but we must love one another, or the

Lord is not pleased to come. We are there as believers, as disciples.

G.G. This matter of assembling and love appropriating one another involves that we are thinking of the whole assembly on the earth also, that is, every one having the Spirit. That must be the ground of the thing in our hearts.

J.T. That is the way the Lord looks at it. The first thing is how we stand with one another, whether we are pleased with one another and can appropriate one another, and sit down together happily as loving one another, as has been remarked, "By this shall all know that ye are disciples of mine, if ye have love amongst yourselves". That is in a section where the Lord is speaking about having part with Him.

Ques. Where does the thought of calling them 'brethren' come in?

J.T. It alludes to our relations with Him, as of Him. They that are sanctified are all of one with the Sanctifier, not exactly united but "of one" stock or kind. We are like Him. We often quote what the Lord said, "Except the grain of wheat falling into the ground die, it abides alone; but if it die, it bears much fruit", John 12:24. That fruit is like the grain that was sown, like Himself. "He that sanctifies and those sanctified are all of one" -- all of one kind, which agrees with what Abraham had in mind that Rebecca must be of the same family as Isaac.

Rem. So it was in resurrection the Lord said, "Go to my brethren".

J.T. Quite so. It is not now brethren of one another but of Christ.

Ques. What is in mind in "I will declare thy name to my brethren"?

J.T. It refers to what the Lord will do in us in the way of ministry. We know what Mary Magdalene's message was. The Lord said, "Touch me not, for I have not yet ascended to my Father; but go to

my brethren and say to them, I ascend to my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God", John 20:17. That would be the declaration. That is what is alluded to here, "I will declare thy name to my brethren".

Ques. Is it a recurring matter?

J.T. The declaration is once for all but the Spirit maintains it.

Rem. The Lord does not come into the assembly till the breaking of bread.

J.T. That is because the breaking of bread is intended to be a memorial of Himself. "This do for the calling of me to mind" (see the Darby Translation note to "me" in 1 Corinthians 11:24). The calling Me to mind, it is a matter of our minds, and we have the mind of Christ, so our minds are capable of being impressed by Him. That is the time you expect Him to come. There is an action in our minds that recalls Him. His presence is consequent, as you may say, synchronous. The Lord would be equal to our minds. He would not be behind at the great moment, He would be there. So John's gospel would help us, He says, "I will not leave you orphans, I am coming to you". It is not a definite period of time, but it is His attitude of mind. That helps in all matters.

Rem. He was made known to them in the breaking of bread in Luke 24.

J.T. That is an additional sidelight, it was not the Lord's supper, but something happened very much like what happens at the Lord's supper, but He vanished. He does not vanish at the Supper. He comes to us. John would endorse Paul's line of truth, so John says, "Jesus came and stood in the midst", John 20:19. Luke says, Jesus "himself stood in their midst", Luke 24:36. But John says "came", so the word 'came' precedes "stood in the midst".

Rem. The Lord said, "I am with you all the days", Matthew 28:20. It seems Christ is with us.

J.T. That is Matthew. He says, "Behold, I am with you all the days, until the completion of the age". Well, now will you enlarge what you have on your mind?

Rem. I believe that Christ is with us when we gather together in His name; He is with us, but manifests Himself in a fresh new way as we break bread. But is there ever a time when He is not with us? In preaching the gospel is not Christ in our meeting there?

J.T. He is if He is. If we are in a bad state He is not.

Ques. When do we lose Christ?

J.T. According to the Scriptures the Lord says He will send a Comforter that He may be with us for ever. That is applicable to Christ in the sense in which it refers to the Holy Spirit. He is alongside of us, that is the general position. The Lord says He will send the Comforter, "ye know him; for he dwelleth with you". He was there, as the Lord was here. But the Spirit is here, too, He "dwelleth with you, and shall be in you". And He says, "I will not leave you orphans", meaning they would not be left to themselves without a Protector. "I am coming to you" -- it means He is not there at first, He is coming. Therefore while Matthew says, "Lo, I am with you alway", we have to understand what that means. We have to rightly divide the word of truth; 2 Timothy 2:15. We have to distinguish between Matthew and John. John has certain lines before him. Matthew never tells us the Lord ascended at all. John says He had not yet ascended. Luke tells us He ascended. So we have to distinguish between Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. You have to rightly divide those gospels. In John He comes to us constantly, but in Matthew He is with us always.

Rem. Paul says, "I bow my knees to the Father

of our Lord Jesus Christ ... that the Christ may dwell, through faith, in your hearts", Ephesians 3:14 - 17.

J.T. Well, that is a general truth. No one of us would be without that truth. The Lord is in our hearts. But He has gone into heaven and He is coming back, He has not yet come back. But according to John He says, "I am coming to you". Paul says, "He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. Then he appeared to above five hundred brethren at once, of whom the most remain until now, but some also have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James; then to all the apostles; and last of all ... he appeared to me also", 1 Corinthians 15:5 - 8. These are all appearings, and last He appeared to Paul. We have to understand that, too. So it is, brethren today are looking for the Lord to come to us according to His promise, but it is in the sense that Scripture says. The Spirit of God is here, a divine Person.

G.G. I think it helps us and we can all do with that line of things for the establishment of our hearts. In Matthew the Lord's unceasing presence would stand in connection with the support He would give us in service, "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptising them to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit; teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have enjoined you. And behold, I am with you all the days, until the completion of the age". That would be a great support to us in service.

J.T. It makes our position impregnable. It cannot be overthrown. So He says, "Hades' gates shall not prevail against it", Matthew 16:18. That is a wonderful thing. It is true for us now.

Rem. In Luke 22:19 the Lord says, "This do in remembrance of me". Not exactly of what I have done for you, but Himself.

J.T. And the remembrance is calling Him to mind.

Ques. How should we recognise the incoming of the Lord?

J.T. That is a question of discernment. It is a mark of the assembly. It is used in David's address to Abigail. He says, "Blessed be thy discernment", 1 Samuel 25:33. Those words apply to the assembly today.

Rem. In the Song of Solomon He comes in answer to love. Love would call Him.

J.T. Quite so. We are getting at spiritual matters, and "Every word of God is pure" Proverbs 30:5 -- and "Every scripture is divinely inspired", 2 Timothy 3:16. The Spirit has come to give us understanding. "The Lord will give thee understanding in all things", 2 Timothy 2:7. We get it waiting on the Lord, comparing spiritual with spiritual, and rightly dividing the word of truth. The brethren are coming to see these things.

Rem. Jesus "has passed through the heavens" (Hebrews 4:14) and things are operated from there.

J.T. So Hebrews 2:9 says, "We see Jesus". He is crowned with glory and honour. We see Him there.

THE LORD'S SUPPER AS THE CENTRE OF DIVINE SERVICE

1 Corinthians 10:14 - 22; 1 Corinthians 11:17 - 26

J.T. I was thinking today that the Lord's supper seems to be divinely intended to be the centre of divine service. It is mentioned from the outset after the Spirit of God came down from heaven, the converts at Pentecost were said to have "persevered in the teaching and fellowship of the apostles, in breaking of bread and prayers" (Acts 2:42), with other things which are also said in that chapter. In verse 46 they broke bread in the house, which implies evidently they did not break bread in the temple, and we also are to understand that whilst the house is mentioned, the house as a dwelling-place of the saints is not exactly intended to be used as the meeting place of the saints, for the houses are differentiated in that they were to eat at home if it was a question of literally eating a meal. Paul says, "Have ye not then houses for eating and drinking?" So evidently the Lord's supper, whilst it is spoken of as being partaken of in houses as over against the temple, was intended to be partaken of in buildings such as are suitable for the saints to meet in, especially as it is said when the Lord ascended, those who saw Him go up returned and went to the upper room, not to the temple. So we have indication that the Lord's supper stood as the centre of the service of God. Other services might be linked on, but the Acts shows that the first day of the week was the day on which the Lord's supper was celebrated. These facts are important, and whilst not being formal, such as the ritual of the Old Testament was, there is certainly form and order connected with it and stressed, too, as this epistle shows. The subject of the Lord's supper is

clearly divided into external features and internal features, the inward features. So the first section read in chapter 10 points to the bearing or conduct of the saints, and walk and ways of the saints are tested by the fact of the Lord's supper. The word 'fellowship' being used in chapter 10 and not in chapter 11 suggests the external bearing of the Lord's supper, and how the walk and ways of the saints were tested by the Lord's supper, by the effects of it. Chapter 11 commencing with the subject of headship, that is to say the head-dress of women and men, these facts, these features of public conduct of relations, are touched on there, evidently with a view of bringing out what is suitable in the way of order when we are gathered together. The idea of prophecy is stressed which belongs in itself to the service of God.

H.E.S. Is outward order the first consideration?

J.T. No. I would suggest rather that public conduct involving fellowship is the first consideration as in chapter 10. The order is in chapter 11.

Ques. What would be included in public conduct?

J.T. Whatever may be public, particularly household conduct, family conduct, then business conduct and in general our relations with men, because you must be right with men. It is a question of what is public, of what affects God in a public way, and then the order that is proper to us as we are gathered. The word 'assembly' is the governing idea in chapter 11. It comes in as early as Acts 1. The Lord is said to have "assembled with them" in verse 4. But as to the Lord's supper, Acts 20 says the saints were assembled. "We being assembled to break bread" (verse 7).

Eu.R. What does that convey, the thought of "being assembled"?

J.T. I think God would convey to us that the

assembly was to be the vessel of His service, the service toward Himself and toward men.

Eu.R. Involving intelligence on the part of each one.

J.T. Just so. "I speak as to intelligent persons: do ye judge what I say". The word would mean that we are called out, the idea of separation, but much more has become attached to it.

G.C.G. Is the governing word 'communion' or 'fellowship'?

J.T. Fellowship, I would say that.

J.F.G. If we are to be right in a public position we must flee idolatry. We need to be right in every relationship.

J.T. Quite so. Idolatry, I should say, was the centre of paganism, and God would not ignore that, for He intended we should be separate from that and Judaism, too. So we have in this epistle, "Give no occasion to stumbling, whether to Jews, or Greeks, or the assembly of God". Those are the three centres, you might say; the first Christianity, the second Judaism, the Jew, and the third the Gentile, paganism. Idolatry is connected with it. You might get the three meeting-places in the same city, to be simple about it you might have them in the same street. And one might go into the pagan place, the idolatrous place, and might go into the synagogue, and might go into the meeting room, and he would find God there. He would not find God in either of the other places. He would find God in the assembly, and he should find God there now.

Eu.R. There could be no fellowship between the assembly of God and the others.

J.T. Hence the word 'fellowship' has acquired such a place. It designates where we are. It is not in chapter 11, but in chapter 10 because of public relations, and the word 'fellowship' has acquired a great place as to how we are bound up together,

running along with unity in the Spirit. Fellowship is bound up with the Spirit. Persons in fellowship should have the Spirit.

Rem. In chapter 1 we are called to the fellowship of God's Son excluding idol fellowship and every other.

J.T. Quite so. It is a convenient word to be applied as to where we are. If we are in fellowship, are we walking consistently? So there is the fellowship of Christ, the Son of God, which is the dignity of it, and the fellowship of Christ's death in chapter 10, and the fellowship of the Spirit in the second epistle. I think therefore the word is a very convenient one and a very right one to designate us where we are.

Ques. Would this fellowship exclude evil?

J.T. I should say so, and the great test of the fellowship is in chapter 5. It is a serious case of evil but it is allowed to come in as a test. The saints were to keep the feast, showing how the idea of fellowship is carried down from old times. We are to keep the feast not with leaven, "but with unleavened bread of sincerity and truth", alluding to the passover. Leaven is a type of sin. It is called old leaven to be purged out -- "according as ye are unleavened". Being redeemed and made holy by the Spirit, we are unleavened, fit for the assembly, fit for fellowship. There seems a need for revival among the brethren of the whole position as to fellowship and all that goes with it, reviving the whole position of the assembly publicly and privately, too, the latter involving we are going to heaven, the former, that is fellowship, implying a condition in entire keeping with heaven, the Spirit of God being here, equal to Christ in heaven, maintaining here morally what is in heaven.

G.C.G. I think that means when a person asks to take their place enquiry is directed as to whether they are in fellowship.

J.T. Just so. So that we come up before each

other in the sense of test or re-examination as to whether we are walking in the truth.

Eu.R. Is that the setting in which the question of associations has come so much to the fore? There are questions which call for one answer but we need to be reminded of the practical bearing of them in our movements among men.

J.T. And the following statements are the comment of the Spirit of God, what we are, not simply what we are in the counsels of God, "Ye shall be to me for sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty", 2 Corinthians 6:18. We are the public family of God, and we are to come out and be separate, "Touch not what is unclean", 2 Corinthians. 6:17. "Having therefore these promises, beloved, let us purify ourselves from every pollution of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in God's fear", 2 Corinthians 7:1. God has brought in the thought of fear amongst the saints which I think is clearly of importance. Leadership was the great principle at the beginning, and so the word 'care' is applied to leadership in Timothy. "How shall he take care of the assembly of God?" (1 Timothy 3:5). Perhaps the thought of it is weakened because of the general weakness among the saints, those who are gathered. So although God placed it amongst us especially in large cities, it became evident that the brethren ought to be all in the thing. The idea of care ought to govern the position and therefore God has blessed the principle of coming together in care. So that young men are to be there. If they have a care and love the Lord they ought to be there, not to lead, of course, but acknowledging their youthfulness, but at the same time to be there.

Ques. Does this challenge every relationship and mode of contact? Does it have a bearing on "When ye come therefore together into one place"?

J.T. Enlarge further on that so that I shall understand you.

Rem. It seems this matter of fellowship is a great challenge as to how we work things out in this matter of the assembly.

G.C.G. So "Let a man prove himself, and thus eat of the bread, and drink of the cup". That proving of oneself would be the full challenge of chapter 10.

J.T. And the question of children and baptism, household baptism is a feature of the truth that has come into prominence in the last fifty years. About that time household baptism was hardly entertained among half the brethren. Well, now you can hardly find a brother who does not believe in it. It ought to be brought up as to where parents are as to their families, and how the families stand in relation to the assembly.

F.J. In those days a generation was lost.

J.T. The lack of household baptism was bound to weaken the position.

Rem. Taking this up clarifies what the meaning of fellowship is. It tends to become hackneyed, the term 'coming into fellowship'.

J.T. We should study the word. In chapter 10 it is communion but the word 'fellowship' is better. It brings in having part in things joyfully and it commits us to things.

Rem. Does the fact that the cup of blessing is the blood of Christ have any bearing on the outward rather than the inward?

J.T. I think it has, the matter of blessing, we are to rise to it.

Rem. It comes before the bread is mentioned.

J.T. It is a question of the dispensation, how Israel was held responsible and the judgment of God fell on them, and so today the judgment of God will fall if our conduct is not right. If we are blessed it is well to keep in the position. He signalises the truth by blessing. We come in on the first day of the week with what blessing there is.

Rem. Are baptised children part of the fellowship?

J.T. They would be in the external sense, because it says, "Your children ... are holy", 1 Corinthians 7:14. That is in an external sense. That should be an incentive to maintain holiness in the houses. We get ungodliness in the Old Testament. What happened to them are types. "I speak as to intelligent persons" -- that implies we understand the types. The list given of what happened is solemn and if children are allowed to take their own course, judgment will come in, for God is what He ever was, He is holy. "Be ye holy, for I am holy".

Ques. Is that why we take hold of the abstract side of things?

J.T. Just so. Get the abstract idea. That is another word we do well to look into as well as fellowship. For chapter 5 has that thought. First we are told to "purge out the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, according as ye are unleavened". We could only be that in an abstract sense.

G.C.G. I think that is helpful "according as ye are unleavened", a blessed thing for us all to seize on that abstract truth, and then seek help and grace to be in the thing practically.

J.T. John's epistle helps us greatly. All John's writings are intended to work out an abstract idea to support the great features of Paul in the fellowship.

F.I. So the first chapter would be the abstract idea.

J.T. The whole of that first paragraph is abstract, the great idea applicable to the Corinthians, they are called "the assembly of God which is in Corinth". The abstract is worked out in the first nine verses. Then we get the practical concrete conditions which the apostle has much to say about. There was disunity amongst the brethren.

J.F.G. We are brought into that as we drink the cup?

J.T. We are standing in our own light if we disregard what is right and holy, because it is a system of blessing that we are connected with. "There hath Jehovah commanded the blessing, life for evermore", Psalm 133:3. That was in the mind of God and it is now in the mind of God.

Rem. Blessing in connection with the holiness of God.

J.T. Just so.

Eu.R. What you say in regard to the first nine verses is very helpful. We should approach every company of saints walking together in the light of that, however small.

J.T. Take, for instance, this town, compare them with what is around in the so-called churches, you can see at once there is not concern about holiness in their services in these churches. The Holy Spirit is the means of holiness and remission the basis of it. In the Old Testament blessing was commanded but it is more than that now. It is a divine Person here, "He abides with you, and shall be in you", John 14:17.

G.C.G. All this enables us intelligently, and with affections fully secured, to enter into chapter 11.

J.T. We must touch on that now for it is the positive thing we are dealing with, namely the Lord's supper and celebrating it. According to other passages, the suggestion is we are together by ourselves, so to speak -- "We being assembled", and the Lord comes to us. The order of it implies He would first show what we are by the work of God. He would first show that when we come together, so we meet one another, we assemble, not simply there as so many persons but on a certain principle, namely assembled. It suggests we appropriate one another, we are essential to one another, we love one another, the Lord is waiting for that. He is ready to come under those circumstances.

G.C.G. So now you have the inner side which is commensurate with the position publicly. Would that be the force of remembrance being brought in in the bread and in the cup here?

J.T. It makes way for the Lord. The allusion in the main is to the mind in the Lord's supper. It is for a calling of Him to mind. That is the word and it alludes to an action in our minds. The Lord coming to us is an action of His but at the same time there is an action in the mind that makes way for Him, "a calling of me to mind". Affection will have its place, of course, but the mind is the leading thought.

Rem. We are intelligent to what the Lord has in mind.

J.T. Just so. The Lord has gone into heaven. "This Jesus who has been taken up from you into heaven, shall thus come in the manner in which ye have beheld him going into heaven", Acts 1:11. What happens in the interim is what is important to notice. He is free to move. Mark says He is "at the right hand of God", Mark 16:19. That is as Administrator, but that implies He loves His people. He will have them in heaven presently, but He comes to them now. He loves them and is active towards them.

Eu.R. "I will not leave you orphans, I am coming to you", John 14:18. He counts upon our affections in the scene of His absence.

J.T. Quite so and then again, "If any one love me, he will keep my word". And again it begins with the idea of keeping His commandments which is fundamental in the service of God here below. The Holy Spirit is here, another Comforter. The Lord says, "I will beg the Father, and he will give you another Comforter". This is the point, in the interim between the Lord's ascension and His coming for His own, "Ye see me" not 'shall see me', but "ye see me; because I live ye also shall live". That is not a

matter in heaven but what happens in the interim in the activity of the Lord's love for us.

F.I. "In that day", does that refer to the Spirit's day?

J.T. That is just what it does refer to.

F.I. Having power in the Spirit we enter into what you are saying. We must have a sense of the Man in glory.

J.T. Then the interim is the time left open. It has lasted more than eighteen hundred years. It was meant to be a spiritual era in which the love of Christ should be shown beside many other things, the love of Christ for His own. He is not staying in heaven till He takes her there, He loves her now.

Ques. The Lord coming in at the Supper, is it at the breaking of bread when the brother is serving?

J.T. The idea would be in the breaking of bread. "He was made known to them in the breaking of bread", Luke 24:35. That was not the Lord's supper but intended to give the idea. On that occasion He was made known to them in the breaking of bread and left immediately, but with us He comes to stay, to spend a season with us, a time with us, not according to Matthew to be there the whole age but a season. The word in Acts 1:21 is, "All the time in which the Lord Jesus came in and went out among us". That was not said for nothing.

Ques. Is He with us when we take the cup?

J.T. I should say so, perhaps before.

Ques. This coming in of the Lord, is it preceded by the mind entering intelligently into what the apostle said, "For I received from the Lord, that which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus, in the night in which he was delivered up, took bread, and having given thanks broke it, and said, This is my body, which is for you: this do in remembrance of me"? Is that the mind entering into and

going back to that night? I should like help in relation to the mind.

J.T. The Lord Jesus in the night in which He was delivered up, that shows how the heart is touched, the fact that He was betrayed. He took bread and broke it and said, "This do for the calling of me to mind". He said also, "This is ... for you". The bread is for us.

G.C.G. We had an expression on Lord's day morning in regard of the bread, that the bread was there, and then you thanked the Lord that the bread is here. We felt it was most affectionate by way of giving us contact with what is implied.

J.T. So that the feelings -- we were speaking of the mind, but the feelings are intended to be touched, too. "I received from the Lord ... the Lord Jesus ... took bread, and having given thanks broke it" -- He did not eat it -- "and said, This is my body, which is for you". It is somewhat different from what Luke says, showing this message which Paul had is evidently the last one and has additions to what we get in the gospels, and some eliminations from what we get in the gospels. Now he said, "Having given thanks broke it, and said, This is my body which is for you", which would mean it is for the assembly and only for the assembly. "This do for the calling of me to mind". After that "In like manner also the cup, after having supped, saying, This cup is the new covenant in my blood: this do, as often as ye shall drink it, in remembrance of me". As the note says, "after having supped" there means having a meal -- evidently the passover supper (see the Darby Translation note to "supped" in 1 Corinthians 11:25) . So that it is clear if He says, "This do in remembrance of me" as to the bread, He is there from that time; although the cup must be an additional thought, it is only that. The breaking of bread implies He is coming.

Ques. Is it a remembrance of the Lord where He went or where He is now, it is not a historical matter in that sense?

J.T. It is where He is, wherever it happens.

Ques. Are vessels thus secured for God? The whole vessel filled with delight and joy in Christ.

J.T. I do not know why you bring in vessels.

Rem. Each of us forming part of the assembly that the Lord is able to control us completely by His love.

J.T. Well, quite so.

Eu.R. Does that involve worship?

J.T. Yes, as the Lord's supper is partaken of, He being there, there is room for His relations with the assembly according to the order of it; according to the type, Isaac loved Rebecca and was dallying with her; Genesis 26:8. There is a time of waiting, mutual relations, after the Lord's supper. But I should say He is there from the outset of the breaking of bread, for it is a great formula of words.

F.I. When we were assembled.

J.T. The term 'the Lord's supper' -- there is a dual thought in the Lord's supper implying intensification of the thing. But the breaking of bread is enough, it is the term usually used.

H.E.S. There is the privilege side and the responsible side. The breaking of bread would be the privilege side.

J.T. I would say that.

J.F.G. Is it important that we keep Paul's presentation before us in the breaking of bread? It was given him "to complete the word of God", Colossians 1:25. We come together to remember a Person in glory.

J.T. He completed the word of God and that would include what we have here.

Rem. The announcing of the Lord's death till He come -- how does the announcing work out today?

J.T. It goes with the public position of the testimony. There was an idea forty years ago that denied that the Lord's supper was taken in the wilderness, but

it is, it is a public idea. The Lord's death is shown.

Rem. Would you link it with chapter 10?

J.T. I would in relation to its being public. Chapter 10 generally alludes to our ordinary circumstances, where we are exposed to paganism.

Rem. Would it be orderly to give out a hymn as soon as the emblems are passed round or to wait on the Lord?

J.T. I think the assembly is viewed by the Lord -- as has been remarked it is His -- as intelligent, it knows what to do, but as He comes in the idea of headship comes in. They know what to do. The question would be, Is the hymn suitable? Very often a hymn involves remarkable joy and touches the hearts of the brethren.

G.C.G. There is a verse in the Song of Songs which has a bearing on this, "I charge you, daughters of Jerusalem, ... that ye stir not up nor awaken love till it please", (see the Darby Translation note to Song of Songs 2:7). If we are, as we would be, moving rightly as partaking of the Supper, it means we are entirely absorbed with Christ and shall know when to move and how to move.

J.T. The question is whether you should confine love to the saints there, whether it is love in Christ or in the saints.

G.C.G. I had before me the way He is before us. It is a question of His love and Himself. "Nor awaken love till it please".

J.T. It would be love then not Christ, whether it be in Him or in the assembly. It is the time of love. Love in the assembly might be quite ready to do something because they are capable of it. That is the constitution of it, they are capable. The Lord would accentuate it, but it is there.

Eu.R. Is it like Isaac lifting up his eyes, and Rebecca lifting up her eyes?

J.T. What Isaac saw was the camels, the power by which the assembly is carried. The Lord knows

how the assembly is constituted. She is His. It is a time of love, the Lord knows it is there and comes because it is there, and He would add to what is there.

F.I. Calling Him to mind would show we are under the mind of the Spirit, having our minds in control.

J.T. Just so, we are ready. The whole position is living. The Lord is not stirring up something that is dead, but it is living and He would join in with it. The Holy Spirit is there, continually there ready to act at any time.

Eu.R. "Ye see me; because I live ye also shall live". Living affection.

J.T. Quite so. The difficulty at Troas was that whilst there was life there, Eutychus fell from the third story and was taken up dead, but Paul enfolded him and said, "His life is in him", hence he was a living boy henceforth. Life is there. The assembly is not simply a living boy, but the saints are there in the spirit of life, and the Spirit is there. The Spirit was active in the Middle Ages, however few there may have been. The Lord took up what was there. And the truth would make the assembly what it is, a living system.

Eu.R. It will go on to an eternal day.

J.T. I think we ought to stress that it is living. The Lord is coming to that.

Rem. The Lord's supper relates to what is public, but we move into the inward.

J.T. It is always public, for the emblems are still there. Sometimes they used to cover them over but they are to be there.

Rem. Sometimes there is lack of joy.

J.T. A word of ministry serves for that purpose, it is used for liberation under the Lord and under the Spirit, too, to stir up the affections. It is a delicate time. We are dealing with delicacy, the instruments involved can easily be touched.

Ques. Could you help us as to each taking his own supper?

J.T. That means he was doing what he should not do. Paul said, "It is not to eat the Lord's supper". It is your own supper. You hardly get anything so gross today as that. But no doubt it was intended to bring out the truth as we have it. Then Paul brings in the idea of your houses. You might say the meeting is in a house, but the idea is it is a place to meet and the saints are meeting in an orderly way such as the Lord may appraise and He comes to that. It is beautiful in His eyes and He comes to it. The Holy Spirit being there, that is the underlying basic position of the assembly, and it is living.

Eu.R. "This cup is the new covenant".

J.T. It brings out the thought of a drinking vessel. Hence it is used in connection with the cup and not the bread. That brings up the idea of a vessel working out in the assembly herself, for she is a vessel and we have the idea of vessels to pour out with, and vessels that can be hung on something, that is the Lord Himself, and each one may be included in that. But it is to bring out the thought of drinking.

Eu.R. Including joy?

J.T. Drinking has that in mind.

Rem. "Drink ye all of it", Matthew 26:27.

J.T. If we are all Christians here we should all drink of it. The Lord would say, It is for all of you, and they all drank out of it.

Ques. Being carried in the joy of the morning meeting, is not the thought we are each to drink it?

J.T. Drinking is a satisfying thing.

Rem. The question of it not being historical rather disturbs me. Many of us regard it as historical. What have you in mind in it being a present matter?

J.T. It can only be historical in the way it says

they broke bread in the house, and "We being assembled to break bread", that is the only way I would use the word 'historical'. The thing is what we do now.

G.C.G. We need help, because often what we do express both in regard of the bread and the cup is very much on the historical line. But if we are together in the conditions we are considering there would be a definite and fresh touch on every occasion.

J.T. Quite so. The saints are supposed to have the Spirit and cut in a straight line the word of truth. So the simple Christian would say, Paul is our apostle and if we are going to break bread -- and we are accustomed to breaking bread -- we want to see what Paul says about that. You would like to know what Paul says about it. The intelligent Christian knows Paul has the last word as to it. We should be governed by it.

Eu.R. He received it from the Lord.

J.T. He received it after the Lord went up to heaven.

Eu.R. It is for "calling of me to mind" -- that Person.

J.T. The idea is He is absent. We often refer to what is said in Exodus 32:1: "For this Moses, the man that has brought us up out of the land of Egypt, -- we do not know what is become of him". We know what has become of the Lord, He has gone up to heaven, He is staying there, but He may come if He pleases. Paul said, "He appeared to me also", 1 Corinthians 15:8. We cannot say He appears in that way now, but He does come to us. It is the One Who is away Who comes to us. How glad we are to see Him. It is intended to accentuate our joy.

Eu.R. It is the gladness of His heart in a spiritual way.

J.T. Quite so.

Ques. Why do we drink if He is already made known to us in the breaking of bread?

J.T. It is an additional thought. It is a dual matter. The cup is mentioned first in chapter 10 and the bread in chapter 11, that is the order of the celebration of it. So we have the cup mentioned several times as distinct from the Lord's table. But the Lord is there in the breaking of bread, because it says He was made known to them in the breaking of bread.

Eu.R. Would it cause His glory to shine before us in an enhancing way -- the cup?

J.T. Quite. The dual thought is very often to emphasise.

THE DISCIPLES VIEWED AS A FAMILY

Matthew 12:46 - 50; Matthew 13:1 - 9, 24 - 30, 36 - 43

J.T. Matthew has been in mind in view of sowing. What is to be said today is intended to centre in the verses read in chapter 12. This passage contemplates a new and basic centre for the opening up of certain features of the truth in Matthew leading on to chapter 16 in which we find the assembly spoken of. The passage read in chapter 12 refers to the disciples as with the Lord. Here it is said, "Stretching out his hand to his disciples, he said, Behold my mother and my brethren; for whosoever shall do the will of my Father who is in the heavens, he is my brother, and sister, and mother". That is to say the disciples are viewed as a family -- the Lord in the midst of them. The statements imply that they are no longer of Judaism but of Christ, later to be called Christians. So the three synoptic gospels treat of this particular section and contemplate the disciples as a household, at least in principle -- attached to the Lord as their centre, and He treats them as representing the family thought which was, and is now, the main characteristic of Christianity. I thought additionally that the Lord's supper may be regarded as connected with this family, although not here. But in chapter 26 we are told that it is the Lord's disciples who are treated as the centre of the service of God in Christianity. The old system had a temple and in the court of it sacrifices were offered, but now it is a new order of things and the synoptic gospels treat the Lord's disciples as His family among whom He institutes His supper, growing out of the passover.

It is thought well to mention these things because of the great importance of the Lord's supper as connected with the family; we are to understand it in

this way -- it is His supper. Paul enlarges on this in detail in connection with Christianity in Corinthians. It is thought well that we should have this before us because the results of the sowing here are intended to displace Judaism, and a new crop for God is now in mind -- the Lord is seen as sowing in view of it.

Then the parable developed in verse 36 refers not to grains of seed, but persons sown -- sons of the kingdom. These are sown by the Lord and the devil is imitating Him, hence the situation around us related to Christianity is mainly spurious, the devil having affected it. It is hoped the Lord will help us to be extricated from these matters and to be sons of the kingdom.

Ques. Are we to understand the sowing in the first parable refers to sowing of the word, and the sowing in the second parable to sowing of persons; and would the disciples as spoken of in chapter 12 actually be the fruit of the sowing in chapter 13?

J.T. They could be regarded in that light, but the nations are also in mind. In chapter 13 it is said, "And that same day Jesus went out from the house and sat down by the sea", meaning the nations are in mind, too. "And great crowds were gathered together to him, so that going on board ship himself he sat down, and the whole crowd stood on the shore. And he spoke to them many things in parables, saying, Behold, the sower went out to sow". Now in verse 36 we are told that He dismissed the crowds, "Having dismissed the crowds, he went into the house". This is another house. The first verse would be the Jewish house, but verse 36 would be the Christian house. That is what I understand.

What I would like the brethren to see particularly is the position of the persons called the sons of the kingdom. They are viewed as so many persons already formed in kingdom principles and able to carry on for the Lord in view of the final gathering,

as it is said, "Then the righteous shall shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He that has ears, let him hear". I apprehend the Lord has now a situation, or had from the outset, in which He has persons sown -- set in certain positions on the earth in which they can be used. They are not babes but sons of the kingdom -- a great thought.

H.P.W. Does that mean these sons of the kingdom are practical exponents of the principles of the kingdom itself?

J.T. That is what I thought.

H.P.W. Righteousness, peace and joy. Are those the principles?

J.T. That is what the kingdom is said to be composed of. "Righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit". It seems to me that this being understood the Lord will have more here as men definitely set according to His own dispositions of them for the maintenance of His interests. They are full grown men.

N.K.M. Why does the Lord allude to Himself here as Son of man?

J.T. That term is very much used -- about eighty-one times in the New Testament, implying that Judaism is set aside. It is a universal thought. So it is that Stephen said he saw "the Son of man standing at the right hand of God", at the time that God was about to set Israel aside because of Stephen's death.

W.W. Is it consequent on His rejection by Israel that He takes up this title?

J.T. That is what I understand. The time had come for it and the Lord has given up Judaism. "Lo, we turn to the nations" (Acts 13:46), Paul says. The salvation of God is sent to them and they will receive it.

I should not like that we should get away from the precious thought of the family position which is

basic. I would like the brethren to take on a little more this lowly position the Lord takes in the midst of a few, and the way He indicates to them what they are to Him. "Stretching out his hand to his disciples, he said, Behold my mother and my brethren"; meaning that it is the family although not going so far as the doctrine of the family. "For whosoever shall do the will of my Father who is in the heavens, he is my brother, and sister, and mother". We have family relationships and we are to enjoy them. They are to work out in feelings of affection for the Lord and for each other in the maintenance of the kingdom.

Ques. Does all that supersede the natural claim?

J.T. That is what the word means, the natural claim of His mother -- she was standing there. "While he was yet speaking to the crowds, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, seeking to speak to him. Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren are standing without, seeking to speak to thee". That one inside had some sympathy with what was outside and very little sympathy with the Lord -- he is intimating that the Lord should go out to them, whereas He is in His own circle.

H.P.W. Are you thinking of what this circle is to the heart of Christ personally?

J.T. I am. He must have found much joy in what there was there.

H.P.W. And still does?

J.T. When we meet each other our eyes indicate our secret feelings about things. We can know all about what goes on in the world from the newspapers, but we have our secrets. "The secret of Jehovah is with them that fear him" (Psalm 25:14), and we have an understanding between each other because we know something of the mysteries of the kingdom.

N.K.M. Do you link that more with the thought of brethren?

J.T. The general term 'brethren' would cover it -- One is our Instructor; Matthew 23:8.

Ques. Is that why the succession of parables comes in chapter 13, that this secret should be kept in its own relation?

J.T. The next parable would be to conceal the truth from the natural mind, but at the same time to help those who have faith to understand. What the Lord says in a later verse helps as to that. "Jesus says to them, Have ye understood all these things? They say to him, Yea, Lord. And he said to them, For this reason every scribe discipled to the kingdom of the heavens is like a man that is a householder who brings out of his treasure things new and old". That is where the precious secret lies, and the Lord does not question that they had understood. It was an understanding time -- the truth was gaining among them. The Lord was here that they all might understand. "Have ye understood all these things?" And He accepted the answer. So much is assumed in our Bible readings. We talk about something else directly after the meeting and forget what is spoken of by the Spirit. That is why the Lord is saying, "Have ye understood all these things?" They said, "Yea, Lord. And he said to them, For this reason every scribe ..." -- a scribe is a man who knows things and is accurate -- "discipled to the kingdom of the heavens is like a man that is a householder who brings out of his treasure things new and old". These two verses are intended to help us at our Bible readings so that we carry away understanding of what is said.

Ques. Would "things new and old" refer to the Old Testament and the New Testament?

J.T. Yes.

M.C. When the apostle Paul speaks of "Jerusalem above ... our mother" (Galatians 4:26), does that support what you are saying about "my mother and my brethren"

J.T. Just so. If you are thinking of the type -- Sarah, she was the true mother, Hagar had no place at all. So that Jerusalem above is our mother, that is the assembly. The assembly is not above yet, but it is in principle, anticipatively above and viewed abstractly in that sense. Hence the position of mother -- the family position.

J.P.H. What does the mother stand for amongst the saints?

J.T. It is the feminine thought, according to the reading of the word 'mother'. We have the idea of a mother in Israel, and the thought of 'fathers'. Things have to be worked out primarily according to what they are and then seek to get the spiritual understanding and whole great thought about them. The free woman is our mother, meaning that our liberty through the gospel makes us free with one another, with the Lord and with the Spirit. Thus Christianity is amongst us. We have the motherly spirit with us.

Ques. Is there any link between what you are saying and what the Lord says from the cross when He sees His mother, "Woman, behold thy son" and "Behold thy mother", John 19:26, 27?

J.T. Anyone who went into John's house, and apparently he had a house, would see that the Lord's mother was John's mother -- John would regard her as such. The Lord had put both of them in their places. There never was anything of the kind before. There is nothing said in Scripture to anyone as to that save to John the evangelist. He was "the disciple whom Jesus loved" and the Lord intended that that should come into Christianity in that sense. There should be the thought of mother and son, younger men treating older women as their mothers,

and even when speaking to young sisters to be careful about it -- "with all purity".

Ques. Were these features secured in the remnant in the end of Malachi, "They that feared Jehovah spoke often one to another; and Jehovah observed it, and heard, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared Jehovah, and that thought upon his name", Malachi 3:16?

J.T. There you get Elijah. "Remember the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, the statutes and ordinances. Behold, I send unto you Elijah the prophet, before the coming of the great and terrible day of Jehovah. And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers". What you say about the remnant has no doubt come out in that way. This is Elijah that was to come. There will be great ministry by someone turning the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers.

Rem. Did not Elijah say "That this people may know ... that thou hast turned their heart"?

J.T. Very good.

Rem. What you are saying is over against the spirit of lawlessness which is increasing.

J.T. Quite so. There is a motherly influence among the brethren, and a fatherly influence. The apostle said, "Ye ... have ... not many fathers" -- you may have men who speak well and yet fail to influence the young in a fatherly way. Paul was a father to the Corinthians, anyway.

Rem. All this seems to open up with the understanding. Doing the "will of my Father" -- there is no family liberty apart from that.

J.T. Quite so.

J.P.H. Is it your thought that these relationships known amongst the brethren help the saints in every department of the truth, including the spreading of

the truth as in the first part of chapter 13? It is to be noticed how many times a brother comes in throughout the Scriptures gradually helping the truth forward. For instance, Genesis 24, and Barnabas in the Acts fetching Saul.

J.T. Yes. And young women are spoken of -- what influence they are to have. The brothers are to regard them in purity; older women as mothers; and a widow who has been such is to be put on the list -- the assembly's money is regarded as so precious but she has earned it, she is qualified to receive help.

J.C.E. Did you make some reference to this bearing on the Supper -- this great feature of sowing?

J.T. I only mentioned it and did not intend to enlarge on the Supper beyond that it is a family matter. The Lord's supper is mentioned immediately as the Spirit of God comes down. It is not mentioned before in the Acts but it is mentioned in chapter 2 twice, to call attention to the fact that it is a family matter. Other things were carried on in the temple, but the Lord's supper was never connected with the temple -- the family thought is bound up with it. There is not much said beyond that the early converts persevered in the teaching and fellowship of the apostles, in breaking of bread and prayers."Then we are told later ''breaking bread in the house", which would indicate that the temple was not used for it. In 1 Corinthians it is clear that the apostle alludes to the breaking of bread as in the meeting place -- in places where brethren meet. He calls attention to what they were doing and that they should be doing it in their houses, but the Lord's supper was to be in a place where the brethren meet, not in the houses of the saints.

Ques. Would Acts 20 -- the matter of Eutychus, disclose the family feature?

J.T. He is called a boy. Paul descended when the thing happened, a very sorrowful happening,

the procedure of the meeting must have been stayed for a time. He enfolded the boy in his arms and said, "His life is in him", as if to indicate that in spite of what happened it was a living situation -- a place where the assembly was gathered, and the child was living. Afterward they went up and the breaking of bread ensued and conversation followed. Then Paul and his company went away, and the others were not a little comforted. They brought away the boy alive.

Ques. Would Joseph be a true brother? He had his father's interests at heart concerning the younger brother.

J.T. Quite so. He entered into what his father felt. We have now come to the point of the Lord's supper, but it is only to bring out the basic thought in Matthew -- the assembly gospel -- which is in this verse we read in which the Lord speaks of brother and sister and mother -- the family situation. Not yet as Hebrews says -- the Lord is not ashamed to call us brethren, but what we are in everyday circumstances.

H.P.W. Would you say that the features of mother and brother really spring out of true discipleship?

J.T. Quite so.

H.P.W. I was thinking as to whether we realise these features, in the secret of our own souls, following Him and imbibing His teaching.

J.T. Yes. The use the Lord intended to make of John comes to me. He says to Peter, "If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? Follow thou me". Paul's doctrine is contemplated only the family is linked up with it. The Lord had great confidence in John, "The disciple whom Jesus loved", but at the outset of the ministry he was always second to Peter, "Peter and John", Acts 3 and 4. Peter was official and authoritative and John ready to leave things, but thoroughly in them. In writing his

gospel the Lord must have given him a knowledge of all that love would need in carrying on in view of the last days. The greatest things are the smallest things.

H.P.W. I was really thinking, you said a little time back about God having secrets and mysteries of the kingdom, and the Lord teaching them. That was not so much to the disciples as to us -- these are the people who have great secrets, and are now carrying on things. Is that how the thing is really developed?

J.T. The Lord has His favourites. In Gethsemane He disposed of what He had, put one here and one there -- a time of pressure. Pressure is coming on now and it is a question as to whether we are holding ourselves available so that the Lord may get the most from us. There is much needed, not only preaching and teaching. There is the mother and sister and brother -- these are all now to be maintained as the family in a practical way.

H.P.W. So you become an exponent of what you have learnt from the Lord, and you are useable in that way.

J.T. Quite so. In John 1, John the baptist was serving and he stood, and his disciples heard him speak and followed Jesus. That is the beginning of things according to John's gospel -- Jesus is the centre. They said, "Where abidest thou?" He inquired of them what they sought, to bring out what they were thinking of. The Lord said, "What seek ye? And they said to him, Rabbi, ... where abidest thou? He says to them, Come and see. They went therefore, and saw where he abode; and they abode with him that day. It was about the tenth hour". Where the Lord abode there they stayed. So the narrative goes on to Nathanael and greater things -- in chapter 2 to marriage -- all practical things and the Lord Himself had part in them, He was not above it. He made wine for them when they needed it. So John would lead us on practical, and

yet the very highest, lines, so that we are ready for service.

F.A.W. John has family feelings and is a true son of the kingdom, and he could be entirely above things at Patmos.

J.T. That is good. The Lord would take account of him as in prison. He was one whose place was in a certain position, according to the Lord's disposition -- what the Lord would wish. That is what we get here, those that do the will of God -- we belong to that family.

Rem. You are not thinking of special gift at the moment. It is those who do the will of the Father who would be marked by liberty. There is special gift but that is not a family matter.

J.T. The Lord says, "she hath done what she could". There is so much to be done and the Lord is looking for us to do things. "The Lord began to do and to teach". Doing first, then teaching.

Rem. He made a certain promise to Peter in calling him, but as far as I know He did not promise John anything. He promises Peter that He will make him fisher of men, but John He simply calls to follow Him.

J.T. To John He gave full wages, that would be love, I am sure.

Ques. Do we arrive at the family thought in Martha, Mary and Lazarus?

J.T. We do. A Jewish family, though. The real family link is in John 13. The Lord went up from Bethany according to Luke, but according to Acts 1 from the mount of Olives. But in John 13 it is the family thought in Christianity, so that it has part with Christ. "Having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end" -- so we have part with Him. Hence He washes our feet and puts us to wash one another's feet. Christianity is worked out from chapter 6 to the end of chapter 17 where

the Lord is with His Father. He lifts up His eyes to heaven and says "Father". That beautiful chapter has the Christian family in mind.

Ques. How are we sustained in this? Is it by prayer and supplication?

J.T. It is the Spirit -- the other Comforter. The whole system in fact is sustained by the Christ. He has gone to be with the Father, and the Spirit has come here so that the position is held in that sense and filled out in the assembly. The assembly is used by the Lord as His own.

Rem. The family thought underlies the service of Aquila and Priscilla in connection with Apollos. They "took him to them".

J.T. If they had a house or lodgings they would take him there. It was an important matter because he was to be a great servant. If we apply the idea of sowing to Apollos we can see how important it was to get him right, that he should be accurate in his use of Scripture -- to know "the way of God more exactly".

Rem. Apollos was accurate, but they taught him more accurately. We can get more and more accurate in the truth.

J.T. We are apt to get things loosely.

Rem. "Strive diligently to present thyself approved to God, a workman that has not to be ashamed, cutting in a straight line the word of truth", 2 Timothy 2:15.

J.T. That is very important -- the truth should be spoken of accurately.

H.P.W. Does accuracy of speaking come from accuracy of mind? As our minds come under the sway of the Holy Spirit we should walk in the Spirit and even think in the Spirit.

J.T. Quite so.

Rem. God says to Moses, "I will be with thy mouth, and teach thee what thou shalt say".

J.T. God has made man's mouth and He has made it to be accurate.

Ques. Is accuracy in hearing necessary?

J.T. Yes, it is.

Ques. Is the principle of the school of Tyrannus in Ephesus helpful in this connection -- on the line of accuracy?

J.T. I would think so.

Ques. What would be the Lord's object in this parable of the sower? He says at the end, "He that hath ears, let him hear". Is it that we should take heed to what we hear so that we should not be like grain on rocky places?

J.T. That applies to every one of us.

H.P.W. There is a touching allusion to the Holy Spirit, "When he is come, the Spirit of truth, he shall guide you into all the truth: for he shall not speak from himself; but whatsoever he shall hear he shall speak; and he will announce to you what is coming". We need really to have our thoughts controlled by the Holy Spirit.

J.T. Yes. There is no doubt that the method of ministering to one another which the Lord has supported for so many years is this method of Bible readings. Whether they had it at the beginning exactly as we have it is uncertain, but the principle was there. The method in Troas is to be noted because the word is changed. After Eutychus fell and was raised, or resuscitated, life was there, and they went up and broke bread and talked. There could be no doubt that the apostle would have much to say about the Supper. We are not told what he said at all, but he conversed at length. The ministry has been used of God, and it helps us to understand, and hence the need of hearing aright. "Take heed how ye hear". We should be able to judge what was said after a meeting. We should have church ears. The ears of the assembly are spoken of, they should

be ears that hear aright. Hence the importance of hearing and speaking rightly.

Ques. Had Luke that in view when he commenced his gospel? "Most excellent Theophilus, that thou mightest know the certainty of those things".

J.T. That is right. "Eye-witnesses of and attendants on the Word". Hence we have the understanding in the end of John's gospel. The Lord did not say that that disciple "does not die". There is a sense in which the disciple continues but not literally.

Rem. Lydia was one whose heart the Lord opened to attend to the words spoken by Paul.

J.T. Yes. As if he were the chief speaker.

Ques. Would verse 36 help on this line?

J.T. It is to bring in this side. He left the Jewish house. "Jesus went out from the house and sat down by the sea". That was the position. Then we have the parables. There was a private side to the position as there is always. What is said publicly may require careful sifting out privately. Aquila and Priscilla took Apollos to them; they would treat the matter as private. They would be careful not to expose him because he was manifestly a great vessel. So we should be careful as to what we hear, and to talk, if necessary, privately to one another about certain doctrines or phases of the truth or principles that are not clear generally, so that we may avoid differences of opinion.

ASSURED OF THE TRUTH

Genesis 15; 2 Timothy 4:1 - 5

J.T. What is in mind is that we should become assured of the truth; Abraham sought to know. And so it is that we have so much about knowledge in the chapter we read from Genesis. It affords the first thought of the word of God as such, not the Scriptures exactly, but the word of God. This chapter speaks of it for the first time in Scripture, and that is why it is proposed now, because it indicates that God would assure Abram by His word, His own word. And so the passage in 2 Timothy is suggested because it tells Timothy to preach the word, that is the word of God, to do the work of an evangelist. The work of the evangelist would evidently take the form, if not entirely, certainly largely, of the preaching of the word. Other things, of course, would be found in the service of the evangelist, or the person who is said to do the work, for Timotheus is not exactly called an evangelist, he is to do the work of an evangelist. So it is to take the character of preaching the word, the word of God. It is thought that looking into Genesis 15 will help us in a general way as to assurance; assurance which comes through the word of God. Hence it is said, Abram said, "Lo, to me thou hast given no seed, and behold, a son of my house will be mine heir. And behold, the word of Jehovah came to him, saying, This shall not be thine heir, but he that will come forth out of thy body shall be thine heir. And he led him out, and said, Look now toward the heavens, and number the stars, if thou be able to number them. And he said to him, So shall thy seed be!" This is a word of assurance. "And he believed Jehovah; and he reckoned it to him as righteousness", and then Jehovah said to him,

"I am Jehovah who brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldeans, to give thee this land to possess it. And he said" (that is Abram), "Lord Jehovah, how shall I know that I shall possess it?" So that the matter is in this way set before us, God's side of the matter, and Abram's, and we shall see that Abram's side requires what would be regarded or should be regarded as subjective knowledge.

Ques. When you speak of the word, you said 'not the Scriptures exactly'. Have you in mind that which is living and powerful?

J.T. Just so. The word of God is living and powerful.

Ques. That could hardly be said of the Scriptures?

J.T. Well, they would be that, of course, by the Spirit, as the Spirit uses them, as any of us uses them by the Spirit. But we have to distinguish between the word of God and the Scriptures nevertheless. "The word of God is living and operative, and sharper than any two-edged sword, and penetrating to the division of soul and spirit, both of joints and marrow, and a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. And there is not a creature unapparent before him; but all things are naked and laid bare to his eyes, with whom we have to do", Hebrews 4:12, 13. That is the idea of the word which we should keep before us, but clearly what we have in Genesis bears on Abram's daily circumstances having a prophetic character and an assuring character to Abram.

Ques. Does the victory secured in chapter 14 bring to light the need of an heir that the land should be inherited?

J.T. Well, no doubt Abram felt the need of it before, he alludes to Eliezer and calls him the son of his house, that is, born a domestic servant. So that it would be in Abram's mind that it should be a son, not a domestic servant, and, of course, when we come down the lines of the truth, Christ is the Son.

Ques. Did God's first word to Abram encourage him to raise this question as to an heir, "Fear not, Abram; I am thy shield, thy exceeding great reward"? Then Abram raises the question of an heir, does he not?

J.T. Yes, and undoubtedly God intended that he should. It would keep him from any natural efforts or subterfuges. It was God speaking, as we might say, to His child, and though the idea of the children of God came in later, yet Abram was born of God in that sense, he was one of God's children, and he was to be assured. It would take time to bring out all the facts. The gospel of Matthew enters on them, beginning with Abraham, forty-two generations were required to bring out the facts, showing how God will have His own way, and take His own time, and teach us patience at the same time in learning God's ways, and becoming assured of His ways, and confident in Him; and undoubtedly it was pleasing to God that Abram should wish to know, as he says, "Lord Jehovah, how shall I know that I shall possess it?" And then we have further down, in verse 13, "He said to Abram, Know assuredly that thy seed will be a sojourner in a land that is not theirs", that is, know assuredly. God therefore would have us to be assured. Covenants were made with Abraham, but we ought not to expect them, because we are born of God in a true sense, we are given title to take the place of children of God. Not simply that we are born again in the sense of John 3, but born of the Spirit, that is, the full thought of the children of God. And so now we are the children of God.

Ques. So that the word, would you say, is in relation to facts, and those facts eventually form the basis of all true teaching.

J.T. In relation to facts. That is good.

Rem. Which are in themselves basic and fundamental.

J.T. God therefore would enter into conversation with us as He did with Abram, conversational teaching is a feature, especially in the New Testament, and the basis of it is that we are a family.

N.K.M. What would be the force of God presenting Himself to Abram in this way, "Fear not, Abram; I am thy shield, thy exceeding great reward"?

J.T. Well, I think just what I have said, that Jehovah would assure Abram. Much has passed, as we have already heard, the great battle that was fought, and Abram had three hundred and eighteen trained servants in his house, and he joined the conflict, not as an ally of the attacking kings but because of his brother. It was a matter of love. But Abram himself had to be assured. Melchisedec, whose names are given in the previous chapter, was a direct messenger of God to him, to refresh him in the conflict. It is said that "Melchisedec king of Salem brought out bread and wine. And he was priest of the Most High God. And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the Most High God, possessor of heavens and earth. And blessed be the Most High God, who has delivered thine enemies into thy hand". Well, this would be very assuring so far, but the heir was not promised. I think God loves to have His children to be free with Him, to be bold in our asking; "How much rather shall the Father", it is said, "who is of heaven give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?" How much rather, showing how things are to be had for the asking. God loves to have us draw near and ask. "Ask, and it shall be given to you. Seek, and ye shall find. Knock, and it shall be opened to you". And so forth. So that God would have us in liberty with Him.

R.G.B. Does John's epistle develop this thought of assurance?

J.T. Well, if we approach that epistle we shall see that the main thought is introduced. We have

gradations in the fellowship; that is to say, the Father and the Son are in it and the apostles are in it, and then all the saints. So that we are to understand that we are dealing with divine Persons, and we are to be regulated accordingly to be reverential, but the epistle as it proceeds opens up love, and, just as we have said, "See what love the Father has given to us, that we should be called the children of God". In that sense I would say it certainly does assure us, it opens up what we are dealing with. The Father is available to us, as we have already had it just now, "we have both access by one Spirit to the Father" -- through Christ. It is a mediatorial position, but nevertheless liberty, the liberty in which Christ sets us free.

W.S.S. I was thinking of Abram saying, "the steward of my house". I wondered in connection with your last remark, whether there could not be the liberty until there is the proper provision for the house in the Son. Would that have a bearing on what you have in mind?

J.T. Just so, according to John 8, for instance, "If therefore the Son shall set you free, ye shall be really free". He is over the house, I suppose that is what you mean?

W.S.S. I was thinking that no reward could be offered to Abram that would really satisfy his heart, so long as there was not provision for the house, in the Son.

J.T. Hebrews opens that up, too; the Son was the builder of the house, being God, and He is over it as Son.

Rem. The footnote is the 'son of possession' in connection with the steward.

J.T. That would be that it is Eliezer that he is meaning. But he is possessed as a servant.

Rem. "Son of possession" as the steward, in contrast to a steward who has his master whom he

is under; the son of possession would be entitled as the heir to gather the father's mind in it.

J.T. The expression son of possession could hardly convey the idea of sonship in the sense in which Isaac was son, even the eldest of Abraham's servants, as mentioned in chapter 24; he was not a son, he was the eldest servant of his house, that is to say that he was over all that Abraham had -- rising indeed to the thought of the Holy Spirit as a type. But this one is a domestic.

Ques. Is the reference "a son of my house will be mine heir", to one of his domestics?

J.T. Yes, just so. That is Abram, no doubt, would induct them in some sense into his wealth, but that would not be the divine thought.

W.S.S. I was wondering whether the thought of understanding of assurance, of which you have spoken, is connected in that way with the apprehension of the Son. Abram was not satisfied until the truth of the Son, so to speak, fills his vision. In the end of John's epistle it says, "We know that the Son of God has come, and has given us an understanding".

J.T. Just so.

Ques. On what line did this word of Jehovah come to him? It says, "And behold, the word of Jehovah came to him, saying ..." How did that reach him? Was that an utterance?

J.T. Well, we have to leave it. When Moses went into the sanctuary to speak to Jehovah, it says Jehovah spoke to him, and He spoke to him "from between the two cherubim". So that we cannot say that it was a medium, in the sense of a person, a man; it was God's way, it was mysterious, but still it was God, and it would seem as if all the communications were on that principle after Moses experienced what he did in Numbers 7. He went in to speak to Jehovah, but Jehovah spoke to him, and

that is He had a way of speaking to men "from between the two cherubim". The allusion would be, I suppose, to the Lord Jesus and the Spirit, the means that God has now in the assembly. The speaking goes on, the Spirit may take on men and He does, but it is God speaking. And so Hebrews takes it up, as God who has spoken to us in times past by the fathers, "at the end of these days has spoken to us in Son", the article not being there is simply that God was speaking in the Son, or as the Son, so that I think the manner of the speaking would be in divine Persons.

N.K.M. It says, "then he heard the voice speaking to him from off the mercy-seat which was upon the ark of testimony, from between the two cherubim".

J.T. And that would be now in the incarnation of Christ, of course, and it comes down in the sense of gift, too, in the ministry, because the assembly is the sanctuary, through which God is now operating, and the intention is not to detain us unduly, save as to the general thought of the chapter, that God undertook to speak to Abram in this gracious and full way. It says, "After these things the word of Jehovah came to Abram in a vision". It is a definite departure with God, because it is the first time you have the idea of the word being used, and then it runs on to what we have already read, when Abram says, "Lord Jehovah, how shall I know that I shall possess it?" Now he wants to be sure. "And he said to him, Take me a heifer of three years old, and a she-goat of three years old, and a ram of three years old, and a turtle-dove, and a young pigeon. And he took all these, and divided them in the midst, and laid the half of each opposite its fellow; but the birds he did not divide. And the birds of prey came down on the carcases; and Abram scared them away. And as the sun was just going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and behold, a horror, a great darkness, fell

upon him". Well then, this is a subjective experience that Abram has, and God is intending to put him through it, so that he may come out with assurance. Although the period would be long it would take the character of a prophetic word, yet Abram would be assured that all was settled, and that is the great point that one has in mind, that we should be assured, and that although there may be prophetic ministry, there is assurance that the Spirit of God is in it, and it encourages us to be assured, to believe God, because that is the point -- Abram believed God "and he counted it to him for righteousness".

Ques. When he asks, "how shall I know that I shall possess it?"does he show that he is ready then for the subjective exercises?

J.T. Well, that is right. He is saying to God, I want to know, and then God makes a proposal to him and he accepts it. The proposal is, "Take me a heifer" and so forth, I read the passage, (verses 9 - 11). These creatures would be typical of a subjective experience that faith has to go through in answer to the word of God, which comes to us, whatever way it may come it comes to us, and assures us, and searches us, too, and Abram was equal to that, he was ready to be searched, and to go through horror because the meaning is that he has got to go through in some sense the experience that Israel would go through before they were delivered, possibly something like Romans 7 we have often been reminded of. We have to go through things with God, and learn what God provides as language for us, so that we should understand. These creatures are intended to be a vocabulary for us, so that we should understand and go through things with God, so that we are real Christians.

Ques. Would the searching character of the word of God -- exposing -- be suggested in the division of these animals?

J.T. Well, we have to recognise the female and the male, because these sexes have meanings, have a further language, "Take me a heifer of three years old, and a she-goat of three years old, and a ram of three years old, and a turtle-dove, and a young pigeon". The first three creatures are said to be three years old, which would mean full maturity, and that must find a reaction in the believer, because the question is of the believer advancing in the knowledge of God, and being assured of it, as if it were already existing; it is faith but it is to be assured of as if it existed already.

Ques. Would the thought in Acts 19:20 be the same thought as yours? "Thus with might the word of the Lord increased and prevailed".

J.T. Well, it is the word of the Lord in the gospel there that prevailed. It would be the same thing, and it would be in, one might say, a company. It is a question of the ministry of the gospel, and it increased and prevailed. Ephesus was the very top of the position. Paul was moved on until he came to Ephesus, and there the top stone was laid in the ministry.

Ques. Would Saul go through this experience in Acts 9, in the three days, and then he was assured by the word of Ananias, putting his hands upon him and saying, "Saul, brother"?

J.T. Three days and three nights. Yes, very good. I would say that. And no doubt he worked it out in his own letter to the Romans, in chapter 7.

Ques. Does the way the seven sons of Sceva are dealt with in Acts 19 link with Abram scaring away the birds?

J.T. That is a great matter, for young believers especially and for all of us, to scare away the birds, because they are just agents of the devil, to rob us of the truth that we get at a meeting like this. Many times we get things, and we stop the meeting and we

get talking of this, that and the other thing, and we forget what has been said.

Ques. But Jehovah is going to be jealous of what there is with Abram, by not giving him any instructions as to what to do with these animals, he leaves it to Abram. I wondered whether that was calculated to develop the subjective side of the truth?

J.T. Just so, to bring out the intelligence he had. I think God loves to look on us and give us inklings of what is in His mind, and now it is your turn next, as it were, He would say to you. And so it is that Abram knew what to do here. And so it was that Jehovah would have the animals named, and He "brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof", as if God is ready to see us go through with things and become acquainted with Him, to come to know Him, to know God. So the last word in John's first epistle is, "He is the true God and eternal life". What an immense thing that is! We read in the beginning, "That which was from the beginning", and so on. We would begin with that, Christ in humanity, but we end with the fact that "He is the true God and eternal life". He "hath given us an understanding that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ".

Rem. So that we are divinely sensible. Is that it?

J.T. Quite so. Then in due course we are to be able to converse with God, for this book brings out how God was ready to converse with Abraham; in chapter 18, as we know, He and two others came and took their stand under the tree and waited for Abraham to cook a meal for them. So that God is ready to converse with us.

Ques. Is there a suggestion here in the Lord saying, "Take me a heifer", not 'take thee'?

J.T. Take me, you say? Quite so. God is saying,

This is how you are going to get to know things. And how much there is in the sense of commandment. "If any one thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him recognise the things that I write to you, that it is the Lord's commandment". It is working the things out that are commanded that leads us to the knowledge of God, and makes us confident to converse with Him, to have to say to Him.

Rem. The conversation is resumed when he has attended to Him.

J.T. Yes. So that as we go on with the subjective feature, I think we shall come to what is in mind. The first a heifer, which is a feminine thought, and would allude to true love working out, response toward the Lord, and towards each other. "Take me a heifer of three years old, and a she-goat of three years old, and a ram", which is a progenitive thought, "and a turtle-dove, and a young pigeon. And he took all these, and divided them in the midst, and laid the half of each opposite its fellow; but the birds he did not divide". Showing that he knew what to do, and is left to do it. And then the birds of prey came down on the carcases; and Abram scared them away; meaning that he was going through things with God, although things are severe in a way, as the passage further says, "And as the sun was just going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and behold, a horror, a great darkness, fell upon him". It is not pleasant, but it has got to be gone through, and it was. He knew what he had to do, and he drove the birds away, that is, the emissaries of the devil. He was learning, God was teaching him, and who teaches like Him?

N.K.M. What would be the thought in the sun going down, "just going down", it says?

J.T. Well, I think it would be that the horror would be accentuated, the darkness coming on.

Rem. As you suggested earlier, I believe, it was going through this severe exercise and this horror of

darkness, that God says, "And he said to Abram, Know assuredly", that he would get assurance and be established.

J.T. Yes, that is it. I think it used to be said that the brethren would always come back to Romans 7. Perhaps we have forgotten that, to make Romans 7 a lesson-book as to experience, and bitter experience, where we find "O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me", and then the answer is there, in thanksgiving.

W.S.S. He says, "I know that in me ... good does not dwell", that is, subjective knowledge.

J.T. Quite so.

W.S.S. I suppose this would be a question of our apprehension of the death of Christ?

J.T. Well, I suppose it would, and then the further thoughts in the later verses; it says, in verse 17, "And it came to pass when the sun had gone down, and it was dark", so that things are deepening in the exercise and experience of knowing God, acquiring a knowledge of God; we have the thought of the depths of God, and how God is to be known in these experiences. And so it says, "It was dark", and "behold, there was a smoking furnace, and a flame of fire which passed between those pieces". That is the end, as it were, which would mean, I suppose, the power from God operating in the midst of those pieces. They are Abram's provision, God ordering it, that these powerful things, these powerful suggestions are in the midst of them. There was a smoking furnace, and a flame of fire which passed between those pieces. That is to say, we are dealing with real power, and the power is not against us but for us, leading on to a true knowledge of God; these experiences are very real and tend to depression and the like, but the power that comes in, the power that worketh in us, but particularly now in the objective sense, power in the sense of trial and the furnace, are all in our favour,

and work out in our souls the knowledge of God. Hence the word begins, "Fear not, Abram", because there are so many things that are going on in the world, and so many prognostications by scientific men, that people do fear; they do not know what to do or think. And God would show us that power is on our side, and very great power.

R.G.B. Is that why it says in verse 18, "On the same day Jehovah made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed I give this land", and so on?

J.T. It is a confirmation that he wanted to know. God is saying to him, You want to know and I am telling how you should know, and hence what we get in these verses. And when the confirmation comes it says, "On the same day Jehovah made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the river Euphrates"; not simply Canaan but the whole territory to the Euphrates.

Ques. Does it suggest spiritual enlargement as a result of these exercises?

J.T. Well, it does. It shows how God had His servant in His mind and how He would meet him, and He would not spare him, because he had to go through these things, as we have to go through Romans 7. We may as well face it, or we will never be sure. Many of us are not sure.

W.S.S. If we do not face it we never know power; Romans 8 might come into this?

J.T. I think it does. I think the Spirit is mentioned thirteen times in the first half of Romans 8.

Rem. "According to the power which works in us", not 'the power that works for us'.

J.T. Yes, just so. That is the way God is working with us; Paul bowed his knees. I suppose that chapter is so wonderful as it developed in his own mind, he wanted the brethren to know how much he knew about the mystery, and he bowed his knees to

the Father, and it worked out in the saints as "the power that worketh in us".

F.A.W. Abraham is spoken of early in Romans as being fully persuaded, and Paul at the end of chapter 8 uses the same words; he was persuaded; has the assurance entered into his soul there subjectively?

J.T. I would say so. The four hundred years has to be understood. But what a chapter it is. It was a vision, of course. We were speaking of the medium through which the communication might be made, which is a matter which we have to leave, but what a chapter it is. It is a vision. Abraham saw all this in a vision, which tends to make us spiritual. He would emerge from this extraordinary experience a great deal more spiritual than he had been. He had to do with God in a vision, God in His mercy to him, and His grace and His love to him, and in His power towards him, that is what the chapter means.

Rem. Beautiful the way in which the Spirit of God would enlarge on these exercises in Romans 4, is it not? "Who against hope believed in hope", and "He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God".

Rem. Abraham was a great person, but do you suggest that it is of the power of God that he undergoes this searching, in order that he might learn more about God? The verse in Ephesians says, "Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us". As children of God?

J.T. Well, yes. Of course, we have to bear in mind the differences of the dispensations now. Abram was in another dispensation; redemption had not been accomplished; at the same time the principle of relation with God was there. He was Abraham, the father of the faithful, coming down to ourselves, the father of us all. And he is a believer now, which is

the idea, but the basic thought is that I am a believer. The next thing is, what do I believe? And going over this chapter you see that the creatures, the feminine and masculine creatures and the birds, would bring out experiences that are to enter into the make-up of the believer, that he is in relation with God. God is on his side, God is for him, and he "believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness", showing that he got that great principle, so early in Genesis, the principle of reckoning righteousness to faith, faith is reckoned as righteousness.

W.S.S. Were you thinking that we may perhaps sometimes have thought that when Abram says, "How shall I know?" that that was a mark of unbelief, but it is the mark of belief, is it not? It is pleasing to Jehovah that he should have this desire to know the things.

J.T. I think he is ready. God had opened up the matter with him. It was an overture on God's part in a vision. And so Abram is free from many things which ordinarily he would not be free from. He is free in a vision so as to get things as they are with God. And he would go to the limit, until we come to the smoking furnace, as it says, "A smoking furnace, and a flame of fire which passed between those pieces". Those pieces -- Abraham is identified with those pieces -- and these powerful things are passing between them, as it were, on Abraham's behalf.

W.S.S. If we are to know, there must be the subjective experience. I was thinking of your reference to the word of God. It is very striking that this is the first reference to it in Scripture, that the subjective result is seen in Abram. We might know the Scriptures without the subjective work.

Rem. God appears to compass the whole of Abraham's life. What would that suggest to us in the way of exercise?

J.T. Well, if He takes you up at all, He takes you

up in regard of your life, whether in this world or the next. He takes you up wholly. It is a question therefore of what God will do for you, and I think He has taken up Abraham as a model for us as believers. It is a question of being believers. He is Abraham, the believer, that is really what his position is, a believer, and this chapter shows he is a believer, and his faith is reckoned to him as righteousness, so that he is a righteous man too as well as being a believer.

Ques. What had you in mind in the four hundred years? What are they intended to convey?

J.T. To bring down the history from Abraham till the deliverance from Egypt. Abraham himself was included.

R.G.B. Is the triumphant issue of Romans 7 seen in the end of Romans 8, where it says nothing can "separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord"? Is the subjective work seen fully there?

J.T. I think so. I think Romans 8 is intended to work it out, and to work it out triumphantly. It is the chapter that tells us "All things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to purpose". And if I lay hold of that, nothing can baffle me, for everything is working for good for me.

Ques. It says, "On the same day Jehovah made a covenant with Abram". Would that suggest that God sees His own work in us?

J.T. I think if you were to get behind the scenes and know what the mind of God was, you would see how delighted He was with His servant, with His great creature. He was a great creature, a great prophet, he was the head of a family. The first chapter of Matthew begins with Abraham, and it works out until we come to "Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ" But we

have to add David, we have to think of David, in view of Christ, and the forty-two generations, showing how the work of God patiently moves on to an end, and we are to move on with it, and Abraham is the believer; he is the man that God has taken on to show as the great head of the new order of being, a new race, he is to be the great head of that and God is showing in him what we all are to be, because he is the father of us all.

Ques. Is there a suggestion early in the chapter that these things can only be brought to pass on the line of affections, because Abraham had said, "seeing I go childless"? And Jehovah's answer is, "This shall not be thine heir, but he that will come forth out of thy body (or bowels) shall be thine heir". Does that suggest affections?

J.T. Yes, and the feminine side especially; in the feminine creatures the idea of affection is worked out, and the birds are not divided. I mean to say, Abraham understands what to do, he is intelligent.

N.K.M. Why are the birds not divided?

J.T. Well, I suppose Abraham knew what to do. The creatures were divided and afforded what was needed to exercise power. The power that was to be exercised was to come between the creatures, but the birds were not divided. We have the same principle, I think, in the book of Leviticus; certain things are not divided because they are too small, and yet, however small, God will accept them, and they are brought in in this way.

Ques. Does that scripture confirm the greatness of Abraham actually, God indicating that his intelligence in this matter was right, taking it up in Leviticus that these things are not divided and Abraham did not divide them?

J.T. Leviticus is just the working out of this, because these creatures were taken up, and Abraham, you might say, was the offering priest. He was a

priest. God accounts him to be able to do this, he lets him do it, as he would bring out the idea of priesthood. Some of us have been noting that priesthood is scarce, very scarce among the brethren. Levitical service, preaching and teaching is not so scarce, but priesthood is quite scarce, and it has been shown that Aaron and his sons were not called priests until love is displayed in Exodus in the Hebrew servant, when the threefold testimony to love in the Hebrew servant is indicated or asserted, spoken plainly; then you get the High Priesthood, and the priests and their clothes, especially Aaron's own garments, because it is a question of the thoughts of God in priesthood, in those garments.

W.S.S. We try to apprehend these things, I am afraid, without a sufficient sense in ourselves of the death of Christ and the way in which the glories of Christ have been reached, the priestly garments speaking of His glory in resurrection, perhaps, and here I was thinking, in connection with your remarks, the Lord says to Abraham, in effect, if you are to know things, you must have dealings with Me on the basis of the death of Christ. Would that be the thought?

J.T. Quite so. What an impressive thing it was -- "a smoking furnace and a flame of fire, which passed between those pieces". Abraham had nothing to do with that. He did not cause the smoking furnace and the flame of fire, he placed the pieces where they should be placed, and God let him do it, and he did it, and God's power comes in between them, showing how God's power is identified with the believer.

W.S.S. Would you say that if we really do move subjectively in relation to the truth of the death of Christ we should be surprised at the power that comes in?

J.T. Just so. "The power that worketh in us". I think what we have come to now is what everyone

of us should get into his soul, that the power is there, "the power that worketh in us", and this smoking furnace and fire -- Abraham had nothing to do with that. He put the creatures in their places, and kept the enemy away, and then let God act, because if we let the enemy in we will hinder God, but keeping the enemy away we let God act, and God's action is seen in these two wonderful things, the smoking furnace and the flame of fire. These are symbols of power.

Ques. Are we responsible for our thoughts, then? I was thinking of the birds of prey, the wandering thoughts, perhaps, in letting our thoughts wander all over the place at such holy moments, or at moments when ministry is coming before us. Would that correspond?

J.T. Well, if we do not learn to control our thoughts we are not fit to have part in God's service, because we have to learn to exclude what is extraneous to the service of God. It is a question of the Father, the Son and the Spirit, and the saints. Many things, of course, are right in their places but they are not right now, where it is a question of God's service, what we are towards God, and these symbols of power would indicate what is possible, "the power that worketh in us" as before God.

Ques. Is it here that God is demonstrating that He will bring to consummation that which is desired?

J.T. That is suggested in the extent of the territory, it is greater than what was given to Israel at first. David alone secured this territory, we are told that; here it is "On the same day Jehovah made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the river Euphrates" and so forth, down to the naming of all the Canaanitish nations. They must be overthrown, because they are only the devil in another sense, and, of course, Joshua tells us how they were overthrown; that is to say, Joshua is

extirpation, but David is subjugation. David comes in on God's part for subjugation, and that is by the Spirit, so that He gives the Holy Spirit to those who are subject, we are told, those who obey.

W.S.S. Is your thought that after these experiences Abraham, or, on the other hand, Timothy, would be able to proclaim the word -- not merely say what was in the Scriptures?

J.T. Well, I think we ought to come to that now, because Timothy is not exactly an evangelist, although he had the gift which he did not stir up, and he needed to stir up his gift, one of his gifts, we are told; but it says here, "I testify before God and Christ Jesus, who is about to judge living and dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom, proclaim the word"; and then further, "But thou, be sober in all things, bear evils, do the work of an evangelist, fill up the full measure of thy ministry". Whatever it is, whatever the ministry may be, fill it up. That is prescribed -- to preach the word. It is a remarkable thing, it does not say, 'preach the gospel' here, although the gospel, of course, is to be preached, but it is preach the word, as if in the last days we need to stress the word in the preaching.

W.S.S. I would just like to be helped about this. The thought of the word that you are presenting to us is connected, I gather, with the subjective exercises of Abraham, so that something is made good in the one who does the preaching, is that the thought?

J.T. Well, if Abraham is kept before us, the evangelists all come in in due course, and the teachers, and the gifts, because they all come in on that line, but dispensations have to be taken into account, too. We begin with twelve apostles; there was one missing, in Judas, but that one was made up before the Lord sent down the Spirit. The Lord was in heaven for ten days before He sent down the Spirit. There must have been some consideration and thought as to the

spirit coming and whether everything was ready for the incoming of the Spirit, and then we are told about the converts, Peter being the evangelist, the preacher, there were three thousand of the converts, or the saints, generally, there. "They persevered in the teaching and fellowship of the apostles, in breaking of bread and prayers". That went on very happily, according to the facts. When we come to chapter 6 there was the complaining element, and provision had to be made to meet that, until Paul comes on the scene, as if the principle of revival had already come. The principle became needed, and so the Lord says, "he is an elect vessel to me, to bear my name before both nations and kings and the sons of Israel for I will show to him how much he must suffer for my name", so that it would look as if the need of the principle of revival is almost constant, because we are apt to settle down in former ways and forget that freshness is always needed, and the incoming of Paul implied freshness and vigour, and the full working out of the divine thoughts, because very much was left until Paul came in.

Ques. Would that preserve us from being overwhelmed with the horrors and darkness of the last days?

J.T. Quite so.

N.K.M. We have alluded to preaching the gospel and preaching the word. Would you say another word as to that?

J.T. I think the word implies, as we see here, the need of something more forceful, because the gospel is glad tidings. It has the spirit of gladness in it, but the word ploughs us up more, I would think. As we were saying, the "word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword", showing what is needed under certain circumstances in the testimony of God, and we need the word.

Rem. That was very similar to the idea when the

centurion said, "Speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed".

J.T. Yes, very good.

Ques. Do you feel we should press the authority and rights of God in the gospel?

J.T. I think where the word of God is implied, there is more power in the word, it is living and operative. It is remarkable phraseology in Hebrews 4, "the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do". One feels that in the end of the dispensation we need to do that, to keep to the word.

Rem. That is what I was thinking, in view of the days we are living in, no fear of God, lawlessness, corruption abounding. I was just wondering whether you need to press the sovereign rights of God.

R.G.B. Is it something direct from God conveyed mediatorially? I was thinking of how the speaking of God was conveyed in the Son, but that now the saints are brought into it, to convey what is brought direct from God. Would that be right?

J.T. It would, because God Himself is speaking in His word. It runs into that in Hebrews 4. It runs into the thought of Son in Hebrews 1, but in the fourth chapter it runs into God Himself. It is nothing less than that the word of God is God Himself. We are all naked and open to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do. That is the word, the word runs into that, runs into the thought of God Himself.

Ques. God spake to Abraham in a vision. Should we look for that in connection with hearing God's word?

J.T. I doubt it. Of course, there may be visions,

but there is not much now, you know, not much ecstasy now. All these things were quite familiar and much used at the start. At the same time, the Spirit of God is here, and the humility that attaches to Him and His services; the marvellous patience of the Spirit of God remaining here all these centuries, and still here, as in a meeting like this; He is still here, and He is set on working out what Christ is in us, the Spirit of Christ. It is said to be the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ, as if there is need of a supply of it at any given time.

W.S.S. You would look for impressions, would you?

J.T. Quite so, why should we not? The Spirit of God is here. If we are self-judged we will get something.

Ques. At the end of Hebrews, it says, "Remember your leaders who have spoken to you the word of God". Is that the thing?

J.T. Well, it is said in Hebrews 2, "For this reason we should give heed more abundantly to the things we have heard, lest in any way we should slip away. For if the word which was spoken by angels was firm, and every transgression and disobedience received just retribution, how shall we escape if we have been negligent of so great salvation, which, having had its commencement in being spoken of by the Lord, has been confirmed to us by those who have heard". This is how the matter came out. "God bearing, besides, witness with them to it, both by signs and wonders, and various acts of power, and distributions of the Holy Spirit, according to his will?" This is a statement in the epistle to the Hebrews of how things came in at the beginning.

READING ON COLOSSIANS 2

Colossians 2

J.T. Notice the references to combat. The apostle says, "I would have you know what combat I have for you, and those in Laodicea, and as many as have not seen my face in flesh". There are other references to combat in the epistle which may help us, especially Epaphras, of whom it is said "Always combating earnestly for you in prayers, to the end that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God". This brother probably suggested the epistle to be written to the Colossians, as if they needed the instruction that the letter affords. Epaphras combated for them and the apostle did, too.

Ques. Why does he say that he would have them to know this? What is particularly in mind when he speaks not only of them but others in Laodicea? Would the others come down to our day?

J.T. It is a comfort to know that such a one as Paul or even a lesser is thinking of us in this sense, especially as informed as to some local condition.

Rem. You think in that connection that we are apt to forget that this combat is going on with those who have this desire to present every man perfect in Christ.

J.T. That is so; and another thing that comes into that is the fact that we are dealing with an epistle intended for Gentiles, not such as Hebrews or other epistles where the Jews are involved -- Jewish Christians. This is a suggestion of the position of Christ typified in Joseph. Joseph was a man of affairs who had much care, whereas Isaac was another type of Christ in relation to the assembly -- Isaac was a man of leisure. So this epistle speaks of Christ among the Gentiles from which we could imply that

the Lord has much on His hands, the pressure being great and the service being great -- the need of serving the saints then this combat. It all involves the Lord's extreme concern about us. It would be reflected in those who serve Him in the ministry, especially if any information has been given as to any local company, and how that is to be met.

Rem. The great concern and exercise is this matter of standing perfect and complete in the will of God.

J.T. Quite so; "in all the will of God".

Rem. He addresses them as holy and faithful brethren in the first chapter. There was a good state there.

J.T. Yes -- a good meeting with certain dangers attaching to it. It is an advantage to the ministers to know what dangers may be current in any local company.

Ques. Is it a good point that he says, "Epaphras, who is one of you"?

J.T. I suppose he must have informed Paul as to local conditions. Paul had never been there. They had not seen his face in the flesh, but Epaphras would inform the apostle. I suppose the fact that he is mentioned in this way, "Even as ye learned from Epaphras, our beloved fellow-bondman, who is a faithful minister of Christ for you, who has also manifested to us your love in the Spirit", and then later "Epaphras, who is one of you, the bondman of Christ Jesus, salutes you, always combating earnestly for you in prayers, to the end that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God", shows that he would be leading personally in the whole position. We can find in the local companies persons who are outstanding and carry things before God -- they labour in prayer before God, and then if need be inform others who might be able to help and meet the difficulty.

Rem. Combating would go beyond prayer.

J.T. Yes. It would be a question of Satan's power

having to be faced. "Satan has hindered us", Paul says to the Thessalonians, and there are men like Epaphras who take the matter up for the Lord and His interests, like a Daniel -- persons who can always be counted on. The Lord alludes to persons who are sown -- sons of the kingdom. Here and there where the Lord's interests are, persons are sown; persons whom the Lord can rely on.

Rem. He puts them where He wants them by a certain process.

J.T. A 'certain process' is the right word. It might be by a bit of information that reaches one. There are many ways the Lord has of teaching His servants so that they may be sown here and there. When He reaches Gethsemane in the hour of distress He disposed of those that were with Him to the best advantage. They did not act very well, but that was the idea.

Rem. I think you have often said that He divided them. There were the three, Peter, James and John, who would suggest in a certain way the assembly, and then the eight would signify the thought of what was eternal, do you think?

J.T. I believe that is right.

Rem. I have an idea that it seems to suggest eternity as reached by the ways of God.

J.T. What we are told here is clear, that this brother Epaphras is a person known to the Lord. He is a man who will not turn aside if any difficulty arises, he will face it as far as he can. He will be at home when anything is up in the way of conflict. This brother, although he was away at this moment, he was clearly in the position to meet the local situation at Colosse and Laodicea. Paul says he is "a faithful minister of Christ for you". The word is, a man who would take up a position and meet it at whatever cost. He is a local man acquainting the brethren with the position in Colosse, perhaps in

Laodicea, too, but he is a man that carries things and that is the great point in assembly service. The opening of assembly service in the plural is taken from Paul and Barnabas, "Having chosen them elders in each assembly" -- men that heaven would reckon on to look after things. This brother is such a one as that, one that would care for this meeting, we will say. He will have in his heart that there are certain conditions in this meeting and would carry them before the Lord, and if needed he will be there if the enemy is attacking, and meet him. Paul tells us elsewhere how to meet the enemy and where he is. It is in heavenly places. Not in wilderness conditions, the position where Satan has power is heaven. He has power in the wilderness, too, but when it is the assembly, it is a heavenly matter which is to be met on heavenly lines. Epaphras is a minister to them. "Who is one of you, the bondman of Christ Jesus, salutes you". Paul is writing to them, but Epaphras joins in in the letter. "Always combating earnestly for you in prayers, to the end that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God". It seems to me that this is important to have before us at the present time.

Rem. He would be a local brother given over to prayer in an intense way. Would that signify the kind of man he would be? Not necessarily trying to meet these things by his own words -- he left that to an abler man. What marks the man is an intense form of prayer.

Rem. It seems to be in secret. The apostle tells them that he was praying for them.

J.T. Quite so. Paul was in thorough accord with Epaphras, showing how the ministry stands at the present time. We have no apostles, but we have those who serve in faithfulness -- there are many. They are acquainted with conditions. The many who move about over the whole earth where the brethren are,

are conversant with the situations. They have assembly ears and hear from others what happens. Their services are governed accordingly.

Ques. You were referring in prayer to the need for discernment. Is not Epaphras one who discerned what was needed and had the ability to acquaint others?

J.T. I refer to Abigail who is really a type of the assembly herself. She was the wife of Nabal who was a hard type of man. One of her young men, one of Nabal's young men actually, was loyal to the truth concerning the matter that Abigail was concerned about, and he lays the matter before her. Meaning that if a brother sees there is something likely to damage the assembly he would lay it before someone who can act. Abigail acts immediately. She furnishes food for David and his men. She came down the hill at the same time as David did and met him on a plain where it could be talked about. In due course David says to her, after considerable mutual discourse, "Blessed be thy discernment, and blessed be thou". I think that is quite apropos of what we have here in Colossians. It is the Gentile position which was under the range of Paul's ministry, but he had not had occasion to be there. It is, however, in his diocese, as it were. He is minister of the assembly for the Gentiles. Paul writes to Colosse, not Peter. So it is a question of the responsibility that may attach to any minister and how to meet any local conditions. Apparently Paul had in mind that his combat for them would be encouraging to them when they knew about it. "I would have you know what combat I have for you, and those in Laodicea, and as many as have not seen my face in flesh; to the end that their hearts may be encouraged".

Ques. I wonder if Paul's desires and prayers merged with those of Epaphras in that way.

J.T. I would think so. I think the movement began with the local man.

Ques. Is it suggested that as the thing is carried in this way it will have this encouraging effect, and then the further thought of uniting them together in love?

J.T. Quite so. "Unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the full knowledge of the mystery of God". He had great thoughts as to them. The whole idea of the mystery of God.

Rem. "In which are hid all the treasures of wisdom and of knowledge".

J.T. Showing how elevated is the position taken on by Paul.

Ques. Would the ministry in this epistle be on the lines that we have in the first chapter, "Christ in you the hope of glory"?

J.T. That is what it is exactly. Referring to the type of Joseph -- it is Christ in Egypt. Joseph was in Egypt and was head over the administration of the food, which is a matter about which the Lord would appeal to us all now. It is a question of ministration of food, not actual food but spiritual food. So the Lord says, referring to one who looks after the saints in the sense providing food for them, that when the Lord comes He shall set him over all that He has. He is one who provides a measure of meat for the saints in due season.

Rem. In regard to what you are saying as to Joseph, we have been wondering if you get Christ in the Solomonic position in this epistle. It speaks of Solomon's table and the provision that he should make.

J.T. Quite so. I think Nehemiah's table is more suitable in speaking of Colosse. Solomon is more universal -- more Ephesian, but Colossians is more limited, so that is "Christ in you the hope of glory", meaning Christ in the sense of being in us by the

Spirit. The apostle is concerned as to the terrible attack that had been made. "I say this to the end that no one may delude you by persuasive speech". We have to watch -- we are in the Greek world in this epistle.

Ques. What is philosophy here?

J.T. It is what the natural mind would evolve by the devil's power to corrupt the saints.

Rem. In your prayer you referred to the appearances of the Lord, how He appeared to those who had been toiling all night and told them to cast on the right side, and they did not discern it was the Lord. On another occasion He says, "Children, have ye any meat?" and provides it.

J.T. Very good. I am glad you brought that up. The thought is manifestation in John. John bears on the last days, and that chapter is an appendix. Chapter 20 is really the finish of the gospel in the main, but the Lord comes in in chapter 21 on the point of food. There were seven of them, I think, and Peter said . "I go to fish". (John 21:3) and they say "We also go with thee". It was a diversion from the whole position, which has happened many times in the history of the assembly. The Lord does not upbraid them but calls them "Children" -- very beautiful He says to them, "Have ye any meat? They answered him, No. And he said unto them, Cast the net on the right side of the ship, and ye shall find". Earlier He had asked Peter to cast the net out, and Peter did, and they had a great catch and the net brake, but not this time. It is a comfort that what we have now is the Colossian position, we have the power of resurrection to count on. It is "through faith of the working of God who raised him from among the dead".

Ques. Are we all in peculiar danger of diversion?

J.T. We are always in danger of that. This matter in John 21 comes into what we are saying

because it is a question of food. We all know the world is short of food just now, but we are concerned about spiritual food and the world is short of that, too. The question is whether we have enough here. The matter of food bears on our position. We were speaking of a brother who ministers a portion of meat to the household. All the saints are part of Christ's household. We are providing food for the saints. Our Bible readings have that character. The Lord says to the brethren, instead of reproving them for their unfaithfulness, "Children, have ye any meat?" It brings out the tenderness of His feelings for them.

Rem. The word 'children' there is a word of peculiar affection.

J.T. It reminds us of Isaiah 9"the everlasting Father". It means He is having that position in the millennium -- the Father of the age -- the millennial day, He is to act as Father. Washington was the father of his country -- Christ is the Father of the millennium. So here, He says "Children". There was a fire of coals and fish laid thereon and bread. That was the Father's doing -- I mean Christ as the Father. The Lord says, "Cast the net at the right side of the ship and ye will find", and they did -- "great fishes". We may look for something like that in these last days. Peter came to the land and they found the coals and the fish and bread. Now the Lord says, What you have got, bring that, too. He would graciously connect with what we have got to add to the food. Any one of us might be adding to the food. That is what John 21 brings out, it was the third manifestation of Christ.

Rem. They got food as a result of failure in that expedition.

J.T. The Lord did not upbraid them. At times He passes over things in order to secure us. He secured them fast, for He finally adjusted Peter in that same chapter.

Rem. There was no question of Peter being regulated by the will of God. If food is to be brought in for the saints it will be by those who are concerned about being in the will of God.

J.T. It will be brought by those who are capable of being affected by the grace of God. Their wills were at work. "I go to fish". (John 21:3) That was not serious -- a root matter. We have to discern as to whether matters are root or superficial. In this case their real state was superficial, therefore He immediately restores them and brings them into what He is doing -- connects what they had done with what He is doing. They had food, too, and the Lord credits them with having it. It is very beautiful to see the Lord knows how deep the root is or whether it is a root at all. The Lord saw that His work was really not affected. What He did in His disciples was genuine, it was affected for a moment but the damage was not deep, and He could use them immediately. It is to show His grace.

Ques. Do they respond to the title of 'Children' in that way? Does it show that that which was effected in them was capable of being resuscitated?

J.T. The Lord deals with us according to our state. In Mark 16 the whole thing seemed to be hopeless -- the women were affrighted and saying nothing. The eleven apostles were in unbelief, but the Lord says to them immediately, "Go into all the world, and preach the glad tidings to all the creation". It shows the depth of the work of God. The apparent damage done to them was superficial.

Rem. He was capable of meeting the conditions.

J.T. Exactly. John brings out the same point, that the Lord does not upbraid them about anything, although they were acting in self-will. He did not even upbraid Peter when he denied Him. "The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon". John says, "It is the Lord". He would say that

victoriously. We can rely on the Lord and go on. It would afford more confidence in one another, too.

Ques. What do you think was in mind in the great fishes?

J.T. It is what would happen in the last days. There is a suggestion that we may have many real men in the last days.

Rem. As the result of His great ways He puts His flock in the hands of Peter.

J.T. "Feed my sheep".

Rem. They toiled all night and caught nothing.

J.T. The Lord knew that, too. Yet it is hopeful, because that fire of coals and the fish and bread meant a dinner. It is a thing the Lord is providing for us in spite of our weakness.

Rem. He had everything ready for them. My need -- God has supplied everything to meet me.

J.T. But we are to add to it.

Ques. Is it never to be diminished to what was already there?

J.T. Abstractly the thing is never diminished. The dispensation is set up and goes right on to the end.

Rem. We should add what is suitable to what is there.

J.T. Yes.

Rem. The casting over to the right side of the ship would be in view of adding to what He has provided.

J.T. It would mean we are intelligent persons. That is the ground on which Paul writes to the Corinthians. It results in great increase accumulated and continually accumulating.

Ques. "Buried with him in baptism, in which ye have been also raised with him through faith of the working of God who raised him from among the dead". Could we have a word on that?

J.T. Perhaps we should proceed a little through the chapter first. "As therefore ye have received the

Christ, Jesus the Lord, walk in him". It is a question of what ye have received. "Rooted and built up in him, and assured in the faith, even as ye have been taught, abounding in it with thanksgiving. See that there be no one who shall lead you away as a prey through philosophy and vain deceit", meaning that Satan's work is proceeding, "... according to the elements of the world, and not according to Christ. For in Him dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily". This is one of the greatest statements in the epistle -- what is in Christ bodily. In chapter 1 we have what is in Him without using the word 'bodily'. In verse 18 it says, "And he is the head of the body, the assembly; who is the beginning, firstborn from among the dead, that he might have the first place in all things for in him all the fulness of the Godhead was pleased to dwell". So we have to understand that verse and then understand this verse. "All the fulness of the Godhead bodily" -- it is a question of the incarnation, what He is to us and what we are to Him. "Ye are complete in him, who is the head of all principality and authority, in whom also ye have been circumcised with circumcision not done by hand, in the putting off of the body of the flesh, in the circumcision of the Christ". This is what has just been referred to, "Buried with him in baptism, in which ye have been also raised with him through faith of the working of God who raised him from among the dead". It is a faith position. We have faith in the power of the Spirit, and we are enabled to see that faith works in us, too.

Ques. Is it true of us that we have died in Christ and are raised again?

J.T. "Buried with him in baptism". It says, in which ye have been also raised with him.'' In Romans we are told that we are buried with Christ, but we are not told that we are raised with Christ in that epistle -- we are here, however. It is a question

of faith. The force of the word 'baptism' with a person who is baptised in Romans is 'buried', he is to come out of the water, but he is buried, it is not said that he is raised because it does not agree with Romans. Here, however, the coming out of the water of the person who is baptised is continued as though he were risen.

Ques. Why is it not 'shall be raised'? How does it affect the present?

J.T. On the principle of faith. It is literally future but it is a scriptural way of speaking.

Rem. Abraham had faith in the power of God to raise Isaac, and we have the same kind of faith.

J.T. Quite so. Time is nothing to God -- it is as good as done -- we are raised. The apostle is using the thought of a person coming out of the water to represent a person in resurrection. It is faith in our souls that is the point.

Rem. I hold that by faith all the time here.

J.T. It is the ground on which we have part in the service of God. We are intended to take the place of being raised with Christ for the service of God.

Ques. Is it seeing where Christ is that maintains our faith?

J.T. Quite so. There is no water in Jordan. There is no water for us because we have the Spirit -- it is power, it is God. We have Him.

Ques. "Quickened together with him". Will you open that up?

J.T. It is a concrete fact. It may be linked on with what we were saying last night, "Raised us up together, and has made us sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus". That is the full thought of Ephesians, and the apostle can so record it because it is a question of the power of God.

Rem. The apostle in the closing words of the preceding chapter speaks of the working of God in power and then amplifies and expands it.

J.T. Quite so. "According to the working of the might of his strength, in which he wrought in the Christ in raising him from among the dead, and he set him down at his right hand in the heavenlies, above every principality, and authority, and power". The whole question is God, and what power He has.

Rem. What He effectuates is perfect and delightful to Him.

J.T. On that ground we carry on the service of God, entitled to view ourselves as raised with Jesus Christ. "Buried with him in baptism, in which ye have been also raised with him through faith of the working of God who raised him from among the dead". We are raised through faith in the working of God. It is as good as if you were raised actually.

Ques. Would this reference to resurrection in type link on with the Jordan and what we have in Romans, "walk in newness of life", more the Red Sea?

J.T. That is quite right. The Red Sea takes us into the wilderness, the Jordan takes us into the land which is heavenly. That is important.

Ques. Would you give us another word on this momentous statement, "For in him dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily"? In chapter 1: 19 all the fulness was pleased to dwell in Him, but here it is a present matter. What would you say is suggested by the thought of all the fulness of the Godhead?

J.T. It is a reference to His deity -- God Himself in manhood. He has not changed His deity, although His condition is changed. The word 'bodily' refers to the condition, but the Person we are dealing with is divine, is God Himself. John says, We have handled and seen. The Person we are speaking of is absolute. What we are dealing with refers to God as related to ourselves.

Rem. This is not a matter of what He was down here, it is what He is and where He is now.

J.T. For in Him all the fulness was pleased to dwell. That would refer to man because of the idea of dwelling, but the word 'bodily' is to bring out the fulness of the incarnation. All is based on God come in flesh. The word is "Became flesh and dwelt among us".

Rem. This word "with him" comes three times. "Buried with him in baptism, in which ye have been also raised with him through faith of the working of God", and then "Quickened together with him". They are very choice words.

J.T. In each baptism was the figure.

Ques. The emphasis is on 'Him' -- the greatness of Christ?

Ques. Is it the consciousness we have by the Spirit of being "with him"?

J.T. That is what comes out in the Colossians. It is a great fact -- the greatest fact next to the resurrection and ascension of Christ, is that the Holy Spirit is down here, permanently in us.

READING ON EXODUS 3

Exodus 3

J.T. The chapter is significant for it opens with the relationship of 'in-law', the father-in-law of Moses; it is one of the features of Exodus; it implies that this relation to Moses scarcely bore on the relationship of love, and yet was legal, so that the service of Moses was thus handicapped from the outset, as is often the case with gatherings and with servants, calling for a special intervention of God to put things right if administration is to be in mind. Had you thought of that?

Rem. No; we had not that thought.

J.T. It is a great administrative book, and typically involves much in the ways of God with His people in government; so we need to take up all these things to understand what is in mind. There is the adverse attitude of Pharaoh, the attitude of the king to Moses himself, and how it is to be met; also his wife, as well as his father-in-law; and also that God had a mind to slay Moses, according to the next chapter. We need to take account of all these facts to see how God is seen in the book.

Rem. The answer in the midwives was that they feared God.

J.T. Yes; that is a keynote in the book; they had much to fear according to man, but not according to God; so faith is needed.

Rem. You have said, 'Fear not!'

J.T. Quite. Abraham was a great personage, and God says to him, "Fear not", Genesis 15:1. In Hebrews 11:27 it says, "By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king". So now there is much to fear publicly, politically and socially, and the word "Fear not" is to be thought of. The position calls

for courage: "not fearing the wrath of the king"; and yet it seems he did fear, and fled because of it.

Rem. He was here in the ordering of God, and accepted the position.

J.T. That is the thing to see, to get the right point of view at the beginning in the reading of the book. So the circumstances in Midian bring out the position of Moses in a striking way; it says, "And Pharaoh heard of this matter, and sought to slay Moses. But Moses fled from before Pharaoh, and dwelt in the land of Midian. And he sat by the well. And the priest of Midian had seven daughters" (Exodus 2:15, 16); he sat by the well. You will have seen that?

Ques. Do you think that these early chapters of Exodus have a parallel in that the Lord is about to take the assembly out of the world? So in Exodus 1:8 - 14, Pharaoh spoke roughly, and made the difference between the Egyptians and the children of Israel.

J.T. I think so. It is also a type of millennial times, as well as our going out of Egypt; that is the moral phase, when we go out of the world through the Red Sea; and secondly, when we go from the wilderness into Canaan, which is a spiritual thought. They involve the dual phase of our position. Morally we are out of the world now; baptism and the Lord's supper suggest the means by which we go out; the heavenly side is seen in the Jordan.

Rem. I am thinking of the aspect these things have in the world, and the parallel in spoiling the Egyptians of clothing, silver and gold; so we leave the world divested of all that is of value.

J.T. It is a question of how we get at things morally; how do we ask for vessels and clothing? And then they have "favour in the eyes of the Egyptians", as it says in Exodus 12:35, "And the children of Israel had done according to the word of Moses,

and they had asked of the Egyptians utensils of silver, and utensils of gold, and clothing. And Jehovah had given the people favour in the eyes of the Egyptians, and they gave to them; and they spoiled the Egyptians". It seems to me all this is likely to affect us on the moral line; involving also the political situation, and the industrial and its many complications, and how the rights of God are to be asserted we must assert them. So the plagues become the opening up of God's moral rights over the Egyptians, as well as over His people.

Rem. He said, "Let my son go, that he may serve me", Exodus 4:23.

J.T. Yes; it would be on this particular mountain, God had said to Moses. Has the world any moral right to interfere? There is not much opposition to what the brethren are doing.

Rem. This chapter is between God and Moses alone.

J.T. Clearly; it was a question of the mediator, and what he had to learn, and that these external matters must be faced.

Rem. It was not yet the public side; Moses would have all this in his soul.

J.T. Yes; but we must see that he was an administrator already; he led his father-in-law's flock "behind the wilderness". So God is the Father, and the Lord Jesus is Father in Isaiah 9:6; we have a double thought of fatherhood; the Father in Christianity, and in the Messiah in view of the millennium. The father-in-law has to be considered; he is not with Moses, and yet not against him. Later on he had the offer of being eyes to the people, but he was not ready for it. We have to face things inwardly as well as things externally. So the thorn-bush is a precious point to consider; it really involves John's ministry.

Rem. Moses' first difficulty was the possibility of the extrication of the people from Egypt (verse 11).

J.T. Take one step at a time in Exodus, as in all these books. So we pick our way in them; we are not at the 'in-law' position, but the public profession, we cannot ignore them.

Ques. What are we to see in Moses sitting by the well?

J.T. It is very beautiful, and one of the leading thoughts in the book. How lowly he was! It is the well.

Ques. Does the great house of 2 Timothy 2:20 correspond to the 'in-law' position?

J.T. I would think that, and it must involve the whole of Christendom, the obligations that are there, and how the saints are to be brought out in spite of the difficulties.

Ques. How does it work out, and how are we to be undeterred in the presence of the opposition?

J.T. It is worked out for one thing in the young brothers in the army; it is not very conducive to love, but it is in the will of God; it is a terrible time for them, and now it is a double dose for them, as it were, for this second war is like an addition to what has been before, and the 'in-law' position enters into it.

Ques. Pharaoh took up a certain attitude towards Moses which God in His power completely reversed, and later Moses tells Pharaoh what to do; Exodus 9:19. In the end -- not roughly, but in the night (Exodus 12:31) -- Pharaoh begs him to go out. How does this work out?

J.T. The moral side must enter into it. Pharaoh has to do with God though Moses; a system was set up, and Moses was God to Pharaoh, and Aaron his spokesman; Exodus 7:1. There must be some moral quality in Moses, and thus this system is set up on moral lines; ultimately they will come out on top.

Ques. You are speaking of Moses getting free of the 'in-law' position, and then wanting to go back and take up things for God?

J.T. Well; he has to go through considerable suffering in chapters 2, 3 and 4, and yet in chapter 7 he is in a deified position. How could it be unless on moral lines? It is not so much to get free, but to be quietly accepting it at the well; then we have the father-in-law, and the flock, and then this secret matter, which God is carrying on; it is the ministry of John, really.

Ques. Does it lead to the 'speaking well' of the word of God?

J.T. It would be there. Moses was the law-giver; he is not in the 'in-law' position now, but he is the law-giver, as when Israel sang to the well; Numbers 21:17, 18.

Ques. Was he fortified against what is adverse by what he had seen at the mountain of God?

J.T. Very good; and there is what we were saying as to the well, and the quiet stability Moses had in sitting there. All these thoughts run together.

Rem. There is a basis for God to approach.

J.T. Yes; there must be that for the revelation that was made; but it is here, and the disclosures that were made: "And the Angel of Jehovah appeared to him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a thorn-bush: and he looked, and behold, the thorn-bush burned with fire, and the thorn-bush was not being consumed". Now it is a question as to whether we can have a meeting like this without fear; "And Moses said, Let me now turn aside and see this great sight, why the thorn-bush is not burnt. And Jehovah saw that he turned aside to see, and God called to him out of the midst of the thorn-bush and said, Moses, Moses! And he said, Here am I". And he was afraid; it was wholesome fear; we have here the thought of sitting down quietly, and not being afraid

of the facts of the revelation of God, and all that there is for us; and it is for us to pursue these things. There is wholesome fear and yet liberty of soul to draw near.

Rem. He was moving with the flock.

J.T. Yes; it is the place the flock has with us; how long did he lead the flock?

Rem. It says, "And Moses tended the flock of Jethro his father-in-law"; he did what was necessary, where it was necessary.

J.T. Yes; he was qualifying for administration. We must have that in the service of God.

Ques. What is implied in his sitting by the well?

J.T. These things run together; it is what he had in his soul as he advanced in years, "when he had become great", as it says in Hebrews 11:24.

Ques. What does the thorn-bush signify?

J.T. A weak and lowly position, yet it is not burnt, though God is in it. The power of life is in it. It is not only the incarnation, but God's presence with His people.

Ques. Is it comparable to Acts 2, the fire there; the Holy Spirit coming down, and the saints outwardly defenceless?

J.T. Well, let us look at it: "And when the day of Pentecost was now accomplishing, they were all together in one place. And there came suddenly a sound out of heaven as of a violent impetuous blowing, and filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared to them parted tongues, as of fire, and it sat upon each one of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues as the Spirit gave to them to speak forth", Acts 2:1 - 4. There must be something in the 'fire'.

Rem. There was no fear on their side.

J.T. It does not say so. The crowd spoke in folly, but Peter explains the position to them.

Ques. Does Moses' reference to "the good will of him that dwelt in the bush" (Deuteronomy 33:16) refer to this?

J.T. Surely.

Ques. Is the incarnation linked with the burning bush?

J.T. Yes.

Ques. As to Moses' language here, "Let me now turn aside and see this great sight"; was it moral formation in his soul?

J.T. Yes; notwithstanding the fear he had, too; there was this other element; it was not curiosity, but something going on in his soul.

Ques. What would the object be for the servant?

J.T. It is all there in the book. We must get all the elements. We are coming to the system. It is a question of Christianity, really.

Ques. Is it "we have contemplated his glory"?

J.T. Yes; John says that; John 1:14.

Rem. Moses is urgent, "now", he says.

J.T. Yes; God is answering by calling. In choosing Barnabas and Saul it says, "Separate me now" (Acts 13:2); so it is here. Moses is full of enquiries, and God would be pleased with that. Now God is speaking, not from heaven, but by the Spirit in the assembly.

Ques. Would "Moses, Moses!" here be like Barnabas and Saul, the persons named?

J.T. Very beautiful; doubling of the name; it would greatly emphasise the person.

Ques. What about the bush burning but not being consumed?

J.T. Moses was struck with that; and then the idea of Being, linked with "I AM THAT I AM".

Rem. "God is a spirit" (John 4:24) is seen now in smallness.

J.T. Yes.

Ques. Would lowly and reverent inquiry lead to

more disclosures as to the truth of divine Persons and the assembly?

J.T. Yes; hence let us go back over the ground covered, and one wonders if the brethren are covering the truth. The Lord says, "But when he is come, the Spirit of truth, he shall guide you into all the truth" (John 16:13); there is much as to the Lord's supper and the knowledge of divine Persons; it is a question of the Being of God. In Colossians 1:19 it says, "for in him all the fulness of the Godhead was pleased to dwell", but in Colossians 2:9 it reads, "For in him dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily"; hence it is brought into our range, while in chapter 1 it is the Being, the fulness of the Being of God is there.

Ques. Is Colossians 1:19 the Lord here, and Colossians 2:9 the Lord on high?

J.T. Let us read it. Verse 18 says, "And he is the head of the body, the assembly; who is the beginning, firstborn from among the dead, that he might have the first place in all things: for in him all the fulness of the Godhead was pleased to dwell". It is not saying what, but in the second chapter it is 'bodily'.

Ques. In Colossians 2 it is all that is to be known in Christ above, but is it historical in chapter 1?

J.T. Yes; it is the incarnation; in chapter 1 it is "was pleased to dwell".

Ques. Is "I AM THAT I AM" inscrutability?

J.T. Yes; we have been speaking of the Being, involving the "not being consumed", the thorn-bush is subsisting by the power of God, and we must work out the truth in the following verses 5 - 9, "And he said, Draw not nigh hither: loose thy sandals from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground. And he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look at God. And Jehovah said, I have seen

assuredly the affliction of my people who are in Egypt, and their cry have I heard on account of their taskmasters; for I know their sorrows. And I am come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians, and to bring them up out of that land unto a good and spacious land, unto a land flowing with milk and honey, unto the place of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites. And now behold, the cry of the children of Israel is come unto me"; God is compassionate for His people and wants Moses to understand. We should see the system, not yet unfolded; it is a question of God in His compassions for His people, and of Moses himself being brought to this. Then it says, "and I have also seen the oppression with which the Egyptians oppress them. And now come, and I will send thee unto Pharaoh, that thou mayest bring forth my people the children of Israel out of Egypt. And Moses said to God, Who am I, that I should go unto Pharaoh, and that I should bring forth the children of Israel out of Egypt? And he said, For I will be with thee; and this shall be the sign to thee that I have sent thee when thou hast brought forth the people out of Egypt, ye shall serve God upon this mountain" (verses 9 - 12). God had not changed His mind as to where the service should be carried on: "And Moses said to God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?" (verse 13). Now we come to revelation, "I AM THAT I AM", it is God's Being. "And God said to Moses, I AM THAT I AM. And he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel: I AM hath sent me unto you" (verse 14). We have first the thought of Being, and then the Being is acting on behalf of His people. It is John, and Ephesians, and Colossians, and Hebrews. The truth

of Christ's Person has been before us many years, and eternal life, and the service of God, but there needs to be a reviewing of things as to divine Persons, and how They are to be addressed.

Ques. Is this God in the absolute?

J.T. "I AM THAT I AM" is absolute; it is not in relation to anything; but "I AM hath sent me unto you" is not absolute, but God in relation to His people. We must keep this before us; let us repeat it, that "I AM THAT I AM" is absolute and not in relation to anything, whereas "I AM hath sent me unto you" is God in relation to His people, and all our hopes are bound up in that. The abstract idea is God; not three Persons. Again to repeat, "I AM THAT I AM" is God in the absolute. So we have here the absolute idea of God, not in relation to anything or any other being; but the second reference is relative to His people.

Ques. Would these be the depths of God which the Spirit searches?

J.T. That is a relative thought; no matter how deep you go into it, the more you find out what He is.

Ques. Would you say more as to God in a relative place, and the need for reviewing?

J.T. Well; so much has come before us, and perhaps irregularly, that we need to review things. The Spirit guides us.

Ques. Do we learn in parts?

J.T. Yes; particularly at the readings. God has made more of them possible than at the beginning; it is like Acts 20, the brethren in love together in conversational thoughts.

Rem. Certain things are emphasised at certain times; the idea of the well is needed, so as to come at them in an orderly way.

J.T. I see it more and more; the Lord says, "By this shall all know that ye are disciples of mine, if ye have love amongst yourselves", John 13:35.

Ques. Is there a correspondence between Moses and John?

J.T. There is a great likeness between them, and the Lord likens Moses to Himself in John 5:46, 47.

Rem. In Malachi 3:16 it speaks of them that feared Jehovah speaking "often one to another".

J.T. So also Balaam says of Israel, "What hath God wrought!" (Numbers 23:23). God is working to bring out the truth; "the truth shall set you free" (John 8:32), the Lord says.

Ques. How far does "the full knowledge of him" go in Ephesians 1:17?

J.T. The note to the word 'know' in Matthew 11:27 will help, where it says, "no one knows the Son but the Father"; the note says it is 'real knowledge, not a mere objective acquaintance with a person'; so we have the saints arriving at "the knowledge of the Son of God, at the full-grown man, at the measure of the stature of the fulness of the Christ" (Ephesians 4:13); that is full knowledge.

Ques. Can there be anything greater than God known in the economy? Is "I AM THAT I AM" greater than that?

J.T. We have the real knowledge of God as revealed.

Ques. Does the whole system depend on what is in verse 14?

J.T. John's gospel greatly enlarges on that; the three Persons are seen acting together. The Son is seen acting objectively in 1 Corinthians 1:1 - 9; it implies the objective knowledge the Corinthians had in the abstract seen in that chapter; it is the objective idea of the truth; the apostle is accrediting the Corinthians with being in everything enriched in Christ, "in all word of doctrine, and all knowledge", 1 Corinthians 1:5.

Ques. Is the "temple of God" (1 Corinthians 3:16) another great abstract thought?

J.T. Yes; they had to learn that.

Ques. Does all this involve stability in our souls?

J.T. Yes, exactly.

Ques. Is that implied in Psalm 90, where Moses says, "Lord, thou hast been our dwelling-place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, and thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from eternity to eternity thou art God" (verses 1, 2)?

J.T. You wonder at what is said of Moses.

Ques. Is the spirit of enquiry right, "they shall say, What is his name"?

J.T. It will take time, the scripture is 'unfolding' the truth; Deuteronomy 1:5 uses this word; the fulness comes out in the New Testament. "This is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations"; it had to be disclosed.

Ques. The disclosure to Moses was in answer to an enquiry; are we to experience that?

J.T. We need that, too, as we are together in love as we dig into the deepest matters.

Rem. Are we to know the reality of God bringing His people out of Egypt "unto a land flowing with milk and honey" (verse 8)?

J.T. Yes; it is the abstract idea, and Moses brings it out. He is the first to use the word 'Jah', Exodus 15:2. Numbers 12:8 helps as to what Moses had; "the form of Jehovah doth he behold", He says of Moses. So Paul speaks of "my intelligence in the mystery" (Ephesians 3:4); he had a wonderful knowledge of God. So we have two men that have extraordinary knowledge.

INSTRUCTION IN JOHN'S GOSPEL, AND THE DESIRE FOR ENQUIRY

John 1:35 - 39, 46 - 51; John 6:66 - 71; John 20:16 - 21

J.T. What has been suggested is a feature of the whole gospel; that is, the desire for learning and for instruction, the end being reached when Mary says to the Lord "Rabboni", that is to say her Teacher, to remind us that we are to restrict ourselves as to learning; it is to be confined to the Lord. Nathanael was a quick learner; so was the Magdalene; the Lord calls her 'Mary', showing His personal interest and knowledge of her, "Jesus says to her, Mary. She, turning round, says to Him in Hebrew, Rabboni, which means Teacher". In chapter 6 Peter says, "Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast words of life eternal; and we have believed and known that thou art the holy one of God". That is to say, in his answer he recognised the Lord's priesthood, "words of life eternal", and that He was "the holy one of God", so that in his mind holiness was connected with priesthood. In Malachi 2:7 we have "For the priest's lips should keep knowledge".

Ques. Is it interesting that in this gospel it says, "And they shall be all taught of God", John 6:45?

J.T. Quite so; a very important verse, a key word as to what we are speaking of. There is so much teaching and so many teachers, that the thought comes to us of the need for right teachers and teaching, and how it bears on the present moment, and helps to deliver us from the present system of things in the world. There is not only the teaching, but the Teacher; the Person of the Lord is in mind in all matters.

Ques. Is the need for teaching emphasised by the

interpretation, "Rabboni which, being interpreted, signifies Teacher"

J.T. It is to make plain the key-line in the gospel. The leaders who would be prophets to the Gentiles would need to know what the word 'Rabbi' meant.

Ques. Paul uses the word 'apprehend'; does John open that up? It is an Ephesian word.

J.T. I think that.

Rem. Apprehension is our side; teaching is His side.

J.T. Yes, of course. If we keep in mind that Mary Magdalene is the Lord's ideal, having the assembly in view, it helps to clarify the matter. Her name, and her great desire for teaching, and her saying "Rabboni, which means Teacher", all direct our minds to the assembly. She becomes a sister like Phoebe, and like Lydia, suggestive of the assembly, as also the Old Testament furnishes types in Eve, Rebecca, Asenath, Zipporah, Achsah and Abigail; these are outstanding women to direct our way to the assembly.

Ques. Would you include Leah?

J.T. Yes; and Rachel, too, in a certain way. Leah is characteristically the Gentile; the last loved, but the first to be obtained.

Rem. The "teaching of the Lord" is referred to in Acts 13:12 after Paul had spoken to the proconsul and had dealt with Elymas. There was the desire to learn.

J.T. No doubt. But John's general position in the testimony is calculated to make his teaching attractive.

Ques. Are we to desire to know where He abides?

J.T. Yes, and the readiness to stay with Him; and then the witness of Nathanael in learning, makes him of special interest to the Lord Himself. The Lord enlarges on the thought of teaching in his case, "Philip finds Nathanael, and says to him, We have

found him of whom Moses wrote in the law, and the prophets, Jesus, the son of Joseph, who is from Nazareth. And Nathanael said to him, Can anything good come out of Nazareth? Philip says to him, Come and see. Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and says of him, Behold, one truly an Israelite, in whom there is no guile"; so that we can see how readily and loftily his mind moved in learning; "Nathanael says to him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said to him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig-tree, I saw thee. Nathanael answered and said to him, Rabbi, thou are the Son of God, thou art the King of Israel. Jesus answered and said to him, Because I said to thee, I saw thee under the fig-tree, believest thou? Thou shalt see greater things than these. And he says to him, Verily, verily, I say to you, Henceforth ye shall see the heaven opened, and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of man". It is as if the Lord discerned that others would join with Nathanael. The plural is used in verse 51, 'ye', but in verse 50 it is 'thou'. The Lord discerns that the interest will widen.

Ques. Does learning depend on the place the Lord Himself has in our affections we are subdued in the sense of the greatness of His Person?

J.T. Just so. Enlargement in chapter 1 is suggested as to John the baptist; then there is "The true light was that which, coming into the world, lightens every man", notice the note, 'sheds its light upon' every man; and another thing strikes us in John 1, it is "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we have contemplated his glory)", that is the disciples contemplated, not only heard another great point in understanding the Lord.

Rem. Nothing is said as to what was taught in verse 38; was it on the line of contemplation?

J.T. The Lord would have in mind that if you

come, you see the environment in which He is set, His surroundings, like it is now; that we should be intent on learning; it is what is in His mind.

Ques. Is it what He is like? He says to them, What seek ye?

J.T. Yes; someone said 'class-learning is best; you learn with others'. It is better to learn thus. The Lord discerns this in the enquiry. So that in John 13 He lays aside His garments, and takes a linen towel, and so on, and then calls attention to what He had done and who He was. That section is full of instruction as to the points before us, as to doing what He did.

Ques. Would class-learning be like the school of Tyrannus (Acts 19:9)?

J.T. It would be like these readings we are having now; they have a great importance; we learn together; there is the thought of teaching; the Lord went up on high and gave gifts to men, as it says in Ephesians 4:10 - 12,"He that descended is the same who has also ascended up above all the heavens, that he might fill all things; and he has given some apostles, and some prophets, and some evangelists, and some shepherds and teachers, for the perfecting of the saints"; so that there is the idea of teaching; it is ability and gift; the shepherd and teacher is one gift. As in Hebrews 10:25 we are not to forsake "the assembling of ourselves together, as the custom is with some; but encouraging one another, and by so much the more as ye see the day drawing near". Let the young people get to the meetings; the shepherds and teachers would have them in mind, both brothers and sisters.

Rem. In Acts 1:6 it says, "They therefore, being come together".

J.T. It was the fulfilment of His word, "If then ye see the Son of man ascending up where he was before?" (John 6:62); He went up while they were

together; "having said these things he was taken up, they beholding him"; they were instructed further by the angels, or the two men in white clothing; it means that the angels added ministry, and shows how the Lord moved between the interim of going into heaven and coming back; it is what He is doing now, going and coming. Another thing that follows is what Peter says in Acts 1:21, "that of the men who have assembled with us all the time in which the Lord Jesus came in and went out among us", that one of these should be a witness of His resurrection; one who had been there to see His movements, coming in and going out. We learn by the way He goes up how He will come back.

Ques. To reign or at the rapture?

J.T. The rapture is not formally taught; we are to love His appearing.

Ques. Do we see in 1 John 1:1 the result of the teaching, "that which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes; that which we contemplated, and our hands handled, concerning the word of life"?

J.T. Just so; it is to bring out the reality, and the Person in whom the life is seen; the familiarity, too, the touching and handling. It is what Christianity implies; there is the thought of the Lord coming to us.

Ques. To "learn from me" (Matthew 11:29); is that as a model?

J.T. That is the idea; to learn from Him.

Ques. Are we to make it a more deep habit to enquire?

J.T. Yes; the more spiritual those you get amongst are, the more you learn. If you stay in the infants' class -- well! The need is to be with the elder brethren, to see how they do and say things.

Rem. We are to move away from the Sunday schools.

J.T. They are indeed "like whited sepulchres,

which appear beautiful outwardly, but within are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness", Matthew 23:27.

Ques. Is it not a question of our willingness? Nathanael comes to Him, and in chapter 6: 67 the Lord says, "Will ye also go away?" He refers to the will; is not that essential?

J.T. Yes; it is like "My soul set me upon the chariots of my willing people" (Song of Songs 6:12); and what is said as to the elder brethren and the younger is important, that the younger accustom themselves to be with them and learn from them, and what they are, too. Those two disciples had a great advantage to go to where He abode. As to Aquila and Priscilla in Acts 18:26; whether they took Apollos to their rooms or home, or whether it was in the meeting-room, they followed the Lord's example and took him to them.

Ques. Would this "Come and see" be similar to the word to Mary, "Go to my brethren" (John 20:17)? Would both draw them together?

J.T. Yes.

Rem. The apostles were handicapped; as the writer brings the truth to bear upon the Hebrews, he has to say, "ye are become dull in hearing", Hebrews 5:11.

J.T. Yes; and in keeping with that, "not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together", Hebrews 10:25. Thin meetings show that declension has set in. Nathanael was a brother ready to take in great facts, so he says, "Rabbi, thou art the Son of God, thou art the King of Israel". His personal features show a respect for the "greater things"; he was not keeping the brethren on the lower grades, but on the higher levels, as in Ephesians; as in the school of Tyrannus, where we are to learn.

Rem. The distinguished company with Paul in Acts 20 would augment the truth.

J.T. Certain ones who accompanied him, you

mean; it is a very great point, as if Paul would show the servants as examples of what he was bringing out. There was a Berean, it says, and "there were many lights in the upper room" where they were assembled. What intelligence there is amongst the brethren, and the zeal amongst some, like the dear brethren here from Australia, who feel the desire to see what there is here.

Rem. You are referring to the work of God here. Yes, indeed!

J.T. Many are sacrificing much for it.

Rem. They desire to get more into the current.

J.T. One greatly values what the brethren desire, and on the part of some especially, to get the best, and the Lord does not fail them.

Rem. He operates this way, if we can bear it.

J.T. Yes.

Ques. Where did Nathanael learn this?

J.T. In the right atmosphere, he was near the Lord.

Ques. What was the secret of his quick learning?

J.T. The Lord really began the matter, for it says, And "Philip finds Nathanael, and says to him, We have found him of whom Moses wrote in the law, and the prophets, Jesus, the son of Joseph, who is from Nazareth. And Nathanael said to him, Can anything good come out of Nazareth?" He was rightly handled. How do we handle the brethren that come amongst us? It is a characteristic phrase to "Come and see"; he was coming to Him as "an Israelite, in whom there is no guile". Do not say evil things as to those who are enquiring to drive them away. We may gain a brother if we accredit him. So "Philip says to him, Come and see. Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and says of him, Behold one truly an Israelite, in whom there is no guile. Nathanael says to him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said to him, Before that Philip called thee, when

thou wast under the fig-tree, I saw thee". We are coming into the presence of spiritual power. We had it this morning, as to Abigail, "blessed be thy discernment" (1 Samuel 25:33); that is it! The Lord discerned what was there. We are not asking people to an ordinary man, but to an extraordinary One, a divine Person really; God is amongst us.

Ques. Is it like John 4:29, "Is not he the Christ"?

J.T. Yes; she knew how to handle people; she had herself been properly handled.

Ques. In this matter of discernment, are we to be more discerning?

J.T. Yes; "the spiritual discerns all things" (1 Corinthians 2:15), and it adds, "he is discerned of no one". Christians are beyond the range of ordinary intelligence.

Rem. We learn more from atmosphere than textbooks.

J.T. Yes; we are dealing with divine Persons, and spiritual persons, who are discerned of no one, and then it says, "But we have the mind of Christ". The spiritual man is the model; he discerns all things; the Spirit he has is beyond the ordinary person.

Rem. In John 9 the blind man was led out.

J.T. I was thinking of him. What a remarkable learner he was! They thought he had sinned, but the Lord says, No; he gives an account of himself, that God was working; he told the neighbours, "having gone and washed, I saw"; it was historical; but to the Pharisees he says, "I washed, and I see"; that is moral.

Rem. He went on learning.

Ques. How do we become spiritual? Is it the ascending line?

J.T. Bring before people that there is such a thing as a spiritual man; the person is before you, and you are concerned as to it. "What seek ye" is before you;

"more than Jonas is here", "more than Solomon is here", Matthew 12:41, 42. No one is more interesting than Mary of Magdala; she has attention from the angels and from the Lord; she designated Him, "Rabboni, which means Teacher".

Rem. Peculiar attention is given to this; it says "which means Teacher"; there is to be no mistake about it.

J.T. That is what is said, and it is in their own language.

Ques. Why is it that Bartimaeus is the only other one who uses that expression; Mark 10:51?

J.T. He must have been a quick learner; he had knowledge in his soul, though blind; he was a suitable person; so it says, he "followed him in the way".

Ques. Do we need to have our treasuries?

J.T. Undoubtedly; they are intended by the Holy Spirit to be there; it is what I have gathered up in my own soul. How Mary Magdalene was ready to be used. We have not had a finished product yet; Nathanael was not, but here we are very near to the finishing point; so the Lord says to her, "I ascend to my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God". The Lord regards her as near the finishing point. So we are not to be journeymen or apprentices as if we are always learning and never coming to a knowledge of the truth.

Ques. Does she represent the feature of dignity?

J.T. A good suggestion. When Paul's name was changed (Acts 13:9), he was a learner till then, but after that he was a finished product, and I think Mary comes into that line. One thing to add, "Jesus says to her, Touch me not, for I have not yet ascended to my Father"; what comes out of heaven, is what in principle has gone into heaven, like the heavenly city; Revelation 21.

Rem. She is taking in the heavenly.

J.T. Yes; finality. Somebody has learnt. Paul

says, "my intelligence in the mystery of the Christ", Ephesians 3:4.

Rem. Hence this is essential to the thought of instruction and of the mystery.

J.T. Well; it is especially in mind in John. Hence the Baptist says, "He that has the bride is the bridegroom"; and he has already said, "A man can receive nothing unless it be given him out of heaven" (John 3:27, 29), for there is no other way; it is like the sheet, held by the four corners (Acts 10:11), the innate strength that was there.

Rem. The heavens are opened in Acts 10 and in John 1:51.

J.T. So Stephen tells us later. Christianity is like the book of Hebrews, 'the book of the opened heavens'.

Ques. What did you mean by 'innate power'?

J.T. What was in it like the net not broken in John 21:11; it is resurrection, but more heavenly; a square, a universal thought; and it appeared three times to bring out the strength of it.

Ques. Is there a link with the Lord saying, "I have not yet ascended to my Father", and "he that descended is the same who has also ascended up above all the heavens"in Ephesians 4; is it the objective?

J.T. I suppose so. He goes beyond; a great spiritual thought, involving Deity. No creature can go there; the gifts have come from there, and hence the strength of them.

Ques. Why does He say, "my Father"?

J.T. It is in keeping with what we have; it involves the economy.

Ques. Why does He say, "Touch me not"?

J.T. In the next meeting He was touchable; "Bring thy finger here", the Lord says. The idea is that the assembly is the place where things are adjusted; we get the touch there, as Mary did; there was no discrepancy, no weakness in the circle;

not like Luke 24, where they were frightened, whereas here in John 20 it is not so, "When therefore it was evening on that day, which was the first day of the week, and the doors shut where the disciples were, through fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and says to them, Peace be to you. And having said this, he shewed to them his hands and his side. The disciples rejoiced therefore, having seen the Lord". They rejoiced; they were not abashed, but in liberty. We have the divine thoughts, "Jesus said therefore again to them, Peace be to you: as the Father sent me forth, I also send you". This second time there is no description; the position is final; the thing is settled.

Rem. You have brought it out elsewhere that He comes and stands "in the midst".

J.T. It was the centre, not like Luke 24, which is a local thought.

Rem. The disciples were the great persons.

J.T. Yes; He goes there.

Ques. Is assembling on this high spiritual level a result of the teaching?

J.T. Yes.

Rem. He came to them.

J.T. Yes; there were none like them; "Jesus said therefore again to them, Peace be to you: as the Father sent me forth, I also send you"; they were fit to be sent forth; "And having said this, he breathed into them, and says to them, Receive the Holy Spirit: whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted to them; whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained". Things are put into our hands; this remitting of sins is a great matter; if sins are committed there is a means of dealing with them and restoring people. It is to bring out the character of the moment.

Rem. "The heart of her husband confideth in her", Proverbs 31:11.

J.T. Yes. The remission is first; the spiritual of the company are in mind. "Brethren, if even a man be taken in some fault, ye who are spiritual restore such a one in the spirit of meekness, considering thyself lest thou also be tempted", Galatians 6:1.

Ques. How far does His action go, "he breathed into them, and says to them, Receive the Holy Spirit"?

J.T. It is not the great matter of Pentecost power; there was no fire, but a gracious breathing.

Ques. Are these normal conditions?

J.T. Yes; it is the character of the dispensation; the brethren imbued with the spirit of the dispensation.

Rem. The Holy Spirit would be sensitive as to sin.

J.T. Yes, indeed. The Lord trusting us is a great matter; He signs a blank cheque; He is ready to forgive; so it comes first in this chapter, to bring out the dispensation on the highest level.

Ques. Is it incorporated in Paul's ministry?

J.T. By the sense of grace and forgiveness.

Rem. Discipline is fully committed to the assembly as representing the Lord.

J.T. He was ascended to the highest level.

Rem. "As he is, we also are in this world", 1 John 4:17.

J.T. Yes.

NATURAL RELATIONSHIPS UNRELIABLE

Numbers 10:29 - 32; Numbers 21:17, 18; Isaiah 8:18 - 20

The passage in Numbers 10 is in mind because it shows how unreliable natural relations are especially if 'in-law'. The passage treats of Moses' father-in-law; the question is as to whether it was his actual father-in-law, or the son of his father-in-law, but we would understand that Jethro, Moses' actual father-in-law, is in mind. More is said of this relationship in Moses than in anyone; in this relationship he is mentioned as serving his father-in-law well; and in fact the father-in-law is mentioned because he served Moses well; so that one would be measured as to any remarks as to these 'in-law' relationships, and as to others, especially mothers-in-law. Take Naomi, she served her daughter-in-law well! But I am speaking of Moses as a son-in-law, and therefore having a father-in-law; and I have in mind to speak, by contrast, of him as the 'law-giver'. We cannot hope for much from the father-in-law; as we connect the 'in-law' position with Christendom and the many Christians there, we need to gauge things rightly. In the beginning of the dispensation Moses refers to persons of natural relation to Israel, namely the children of Esau, in Deuteronomy 2; that such persons were treated well; mercy and grace were shown to them; but later the condition changed because the state of Esau was unmendable, and God says, "I loved Jacob, and I hated Esau", Malachi 1:3. I mention this because we are living in these relationships, too; at the beginning much grace was shown to natural relations, a long time was given to Judaism; but the complete deliverance awaited Paul; and as a matter of consequence there was a gradual breaking-up after the Lord went into heaven, according to

Luke 24:50 - 52, "he led them out as far as Bethany, and having lifted up his hands, he blessed them. And it came to pass as he was blessing them, he was separated from them and was carried up into heaven. And they, having done him homage, returned to Jerusalem with great joy", not to the mount of Olives, or to the upper room; so that in going to Jerusalem it was all favourable to the condition of the 'in-law' position; God's long suffering was seen in this, and so it was the Lord would have His people go to the temple, and they "were continually in the temple praising and blessing God", and this will last only as long as the conditions and the expressions belonging to them were taken on, as for instance the covenant never applied to Christianity; it applied to Christianity as the new covenant with the assembly as brought into the Supper; it was the beginning of the fading away of Judaism, though it lasted a long time. We are apt to retain the terms long after the thing has past. The new covenant was never made with the assembly, only in the spirit of it. Judaism has gone; Stephen's burial was the burial of Judaism, and of any good with it. "Great lamentation" was made over Stephen, but undoubtedly it was what Judaism was in such a man as Paul, who wished to "be a curse from the Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen, according to flesh", Romans 9:3. In Colossians and Ephesians we do not get these things. Paul's judgment was to remit, and not to retain what had been, and to show in the burial of Stephen that all that was to be given up. In the death of Herod it was what was abominable to him, and if we are to have in-laws we must be watchful to keep them in their proper place. It was no accident that it was in Antioch that "the disciples were first called Christians", and that Christianity was first established there, and should remain with all the lustre that belongs to it.

I pass on to the other thought, as we have in Moses.

He is not retained because of his Judaic associations, but because of what he represents, and the Lord Jesus connects him and parallels him with Himself; He says in John 5:46, 47, "for if ye had believed Moses, ye would have believed me, for he wrote of me. But if ye do not believe his writings, how shall ye believe my words?" And so Paul's and Peter's words are placed on record as Scripture, and we see how Paul acquires such a place. So the thought of the law-giver is so necessary now; there is so much lawlessness. Moses is the law-giver, but not of the law of Sinai. He took good instructions from his father-in-law, and we may get good thoughts from our 'in-laws', but there is much that is spurious among what is so-called Christian. The law-giver is to be understood, and he is to be retained rigorously; all that are Bereans will do this; they will keep the Scriptures, and all with them; they search daily, as for hidden treasure, and to see if words are rightly used. Those who minister have these treasures to serve and to feed the saints; hence we have the word as to feeding, "Who then is the faithful and prudent steward, whom his lord will set over his household, to give the measure of corn in season ? Blessed is that bondman whom his lord on coming shall find doing thus; verily I say unto you, that he will set him over all that he has", Luke 12:42 - 44. It means the Lord's house; He is often spoken of as the house-father, and in Isaiah 9:6 as the "Father of Eternity". The thought, a very precious one, has to be retained, and as we sit here the Lord will look upon us and say, "Children, have ye anything to eat?" John 21:5. We might even paraphrase that and ask whether it is food that the saints are having. Seven of them went fishing, yet not a word of reproof. What seemed so deep-rooted in them, was shallow, and the Lord knew it. The law-giver refers to law, but not in a legal sense; here it means praise, so the language in

Numbers 21 is, "Then Israel sang this song, Rise up, well! sing unto it: Well which princes digged, which the nobles of the people hollowed out at the word of the lawgiver, with their staves". That is it was the word of the law-giver; it is today a question of what can be applied in the service of God in singing. It is "respond to it". Whatever there is of Christ in the singing is response; it is a beautiful word as it sinks down into the affections of the heart. So it is that law-giving is most necessary at the present time, that response (a rich word!) may be fuller. It enters into the song in Exodus 15 of Moses and the children of Israel; and Miriam and the women had their refrain; it resounded in the wilderness. What God had in that early time! It is the feminine side leading to the assembly. So Miriam went out; she is called "the prophetess", so early; and so it is we have it in our own Scriptures, laws, as I may call them, the first and second epistles to the Corinthians; the first, as it were, a bare commandment, "the things that I write to you, that it is the Lord's commandment" (1 Corinthians 14:37); the other, full of sympathy and feeling; beautiful feelings in the second epistle, "I have espoused you unto one man, to present you a chaste virgin to Christ", 2 Corinthians 11:2. That is all we get in that epistle of the bride, but very full, as a root; how it is needed, that root! These epistles of law, or principles, in which the apostle says so much of women; one marvels that there was so much in these women; we have the suggestion that they prophesied in those days; we have in Acts 21:9, "Now this man had four virgin daughters who prophesied"; but do they prophesy today? I do not know where to put it; but if it is a void, it wants to be remedied. I refer to this scripture because law-giving promotes song, spiritual melody for God and for Christ. Christ has priests on His own account, and God has, too, "they shall be priests of

God and of the Christ", Revelation 20:6. It means that Christ has a means of carrying on, on His own account, and we need to see how to conform to it; so here the law-giver directs the song. It is the suggestion of a word that is exercised in authority in singing, "Then Israel sang this song, Rise up, well! Respond unto it: Well which princes digged, which the nobles of the people hollowed out at the word of the law-giver"; thus we are in the presence of nobility. I venture to compare it with the two letters to the Corinthians, where it says, "If any one thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him recognise the things that I write to you, that it is the Lord's commandment" (1 Corinthians 14:37), and the Lord's supper comes into those epistles, and the Lord is said to be the Person who gives the commandment. Before Gethsemane He disposed of what He had; His lovers were not strong enough to retain Him; their love was so weak, and yet He knew the depth of the roots He had laid; it would fill the whole earth; we go "from glory to glory" as we have it in 2 Corinthians 3:18. We each should be imbued with it, and know how to carry it through. The epistles are full of comfort, and God is the "God of all encouragement", 2 Corinthians 1:3. The lawgiver raises the question of the authority of the Lord, His authority in the Supper; let no one challenge it! The epistles are full of what belongs to Christ, and it is a question of His rights, and the right He has to time, and what use He can make of us. We are espoused to Christ, to be used for His pleasure, to be used for Him, and how essential in our time to see this; there is so much that is lawless. Take the translation of the Scriptures by the Roman Catholics; we find lawlessness in it; so we need the law-giver, and we need the one, whoever he be, who keeps to the Scripture. The Supper, these meetings which we have week after week, are that we might learn in one language; it was at the beginning, not

as at Babel, but it was the Spirit here; the gift of tongues is not needed now, but subjection to the Scriptures; let us learn what is there, and learn to speak the same things, and think eye to eye. Paul says he heard there were divisions among them, and he partly believed it (1 Corinthians 11:18); it was not the terrible thing spoken of in chapter 5, but it is a pernicious thing that slips in so easily. In Numbers 21 they spoke in unity, hence the song.

Now in Isaiah, he was the most feeling prophet, and he includes the most musical king, Hezekiah, who had been down to the gates of death. He says, "The writing of Hezekiah king of Judah, when he had been sick and had recovered from his sickness", this is what we are hopeful of in such as Eutychus (Acts 20:9), in recovery in the assembly; and this is what Hezekiah said, "I said, In the meridian of my days I shall go to the gates of Sheol: I am deprived of the rest of my years. I said, I shall not see Jah, Jah in the land of the living. With those who dwell where all has ceased to be, I shall behold man no more. Mine age is departed, and is removed from me as a shepherd's tent. I have cut off like a weaver my life. He separateth me from the thrum: -- from day to night thou wilt make an end of me. I kept still until the morning; ... as a lion, so doth he break all my bones. From day to night thou wilt make an end of me". This is the way he thought of God. "Like a swallow [or] a crane, so did I chatter; I mourned as a dove; mine eyes failed [with looking] upward: Lord, I am oppressed; undertake for me. What shall I say? He hath both spoken unto me, and himself hath done it. I shall go softly all my years in the bitterness of my soul. Lord, by these things [men] live". This is what I want to come to, to be in such a time, as we need resurrection life in the assembly. I will read on, "and in all these things is the life of my spirit; and thou hast recovered me,

and made me to live. Behold, instead of peace I had bitterness upon bitterness; but thou hast in love delivered my soul from the pit of destruction; for thou hast cast all my sins behind thy back. For not Sheol shall praise thee, nor death celebrate thee; they that go down into the pit do not hope for thy truth. The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I this day", Isaiah 38:9 - 19. This is my effort to bring something to the dear brethren as to the service of God; that we have right hymns and words. The law-giver means the intensification of the thought of right words, and that we all learn to be of one mind, and more, to think the same thing. In the Philippian epistle the Lord Jesus is the greatest model for us, He made Himself of no reputation, and Hezekiah came into the spirit of it, and put it into song, and became one of the great promoters of song in the Old Testament.

Now turn back to chapter 8: 18, "Behold, I and the children that Jehovah hath given me", it is the Lord Jesus speaking in the Spirit,"are for signs and for wonders in Israel, from Jehovah of hosts, who dwelleth in mount Zion. And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto the necromancers and unto the soothsayers, who chirp and who mutter, say, Shall not a people seek unto their God? Will they go for the living unto the dead? To the law and the testimony! If they speak not according to this word, for them there is no daybreak". These are the things we have to face; they are 'in-laws'; yes, but worse apostasy is next door to us; it calls for sobriety; no giving in or dying; it is the great position for us to hold fast; and so here it is, "To the law and the testimony! If they speak not according to this word, for them there is no daybreak", so we are to feel that in the 'in-law' position we may be related to these darkened people. John says, "the darkness is passing and the true light already shines", 1 John 2:8. "Behold, I and

the children that Jehovah hath given me", it is the Lord's gracious place of Father; not the Father, He never takes that; it is a question of moral greatness; and Who has a greater place today? It is a question of what the saints are being fed on; is it real spiritual food -- the best possible? The Lord said in John 21:12, "Come and dine"; it is the best food, not the poorest, and it is for everyone who is serving to give the best; it must be accurate, and that there should be no need of a Berean to challenge what has been said. We as brethren should all speak the same thing, and then as we proceed, the Lord's supper and the service of God would be better.

HOW WE ARE SUPPORTED IN THE WORD OF GOD

Hebrews 4

J.T. What is in mind particularly is the word of God as unfolded in this chapter, and ultimately we may see in the closing part of the chapter how we are supported in it -- the word of God.

In the early part the idea of faith is in mind, so that it is said, "For indeed we have had glad tidings presented to us, even as they also; but the word of the report did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard". The glad tidings here will be understood to refer to heaven, not the glad tidings of our salvation spoken of earlier. Therefore the application to our own time is evident, because heaven is specially stressed by the Spirit in view of the coming of the Lord. The allusion is to the report that was brought back by the spies; it was not mixed with faith in those who heard. Hence the disallowance of the great mass of Israel to enter the land. Similar disallowance is now current, for entrance into heaven is on the principle of faith, that is entrance into heavenly things or places now. It is a time of faith.

The epistle opens with an unfolding of certain statements in the Psalms and other scriptures referring to the Person of Christ. The whole of the first chapter is to call attention to the Person of Christ, and the terrors of disregarding the word: "For this reason", as it says in chapter 2, "we should give abundantly to the things we have heard, lest in any way we should slip away. For if the word which was spoken by angels was firm, and every transgression and disobedience received just retribution, how shall we escape if we have been negligent

of so great salvation, which, having had its commencement in being spoken of by the Lord, has been confirmed to us by those who have heard; God bearing, besides, witness with them to it, both by signs and wonders, and various acts of power, and distributions of the Holy Spirit, according to his will?" First there is the warning of slipping away. And the allusion in the chapter is to the report of the land which the spies brought back to Kadesh. And Psalm 95 being quoted in chapter 3, we are told, "Wherefore, even as says the Holy Spirit, To-day, if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness; where your fathers tempted me, by proving me, and saw my works forty years. Wherefore I was wroth with this generation, and said, They always err in heart; and they have not known my ways; so I swore in my wrath, If they shall enter into my rest. See, brethren, lest there be in any one of you a wicked heart of unbelief, in turning away from the living God".

So that the object of the epistle is clearly set out, to appeal finally to Jewish Christians that they might not turn away. Because it is the Lord's mind to set up Christianity as a thing by itself, not simply as something developed out of Judaism but opened up from heaven to us. There is abundant evidence that the terms of Judaism so prevalent in the early part of Christianity were to give place to Christian terms. Terms in this epistle are largely drawn from what the Spirit of God had taught at the beginning, but now the time had come for the full opening up of Christianity. There are many terms that are used in Christian doctrine which arose primarily from Judaism; not, indeed, that there is anything wrong in it, they are inspired, from the word of God, of course, but at the same time it was intended that they should give place largely to what is terminologically properly Christian. Hence the study of

Paul's ministry would show that there is very little -- take, for instance, Colossians and Ephesians and some other epistles -- save what we would regard as properly Christian terminology. And so such terms as covenant and sanctuary and many other such terms are gradually giving place to what is properly Christian. Especially, of course, what refers to the Lord's supper, which was at the outset and is now the centre of the service of God. So that the terms should be derived from what is properly Christian.

The new covenant is much appealed to from time to time, but it is a term which does not properly belong to Christianity. There was no new covenant made with Christians. I only refer to that because the apostle Paul has the last word in regard to the Lord's supper and it is clear that we should pay attention to it. It contains references, of course, to what is said in the gospels under the same head, but certain things were added by Paul that are not found in the gospels, and much is left out that is found in the gospels in Paul's final word from the Lord regarding the Supper.

Ques. Have you in mind that we should understand what you speak of now as really belonging to Christians, to our dispensation; what is for us now as Paul presents it in Colossians and Ephesians?

J.T. What is intended for Christians. Only, early terminology was used and God was patient and long-suffering with the Jewish Christians. Hence when the Lord ascended to heaven the disciples according to Luke went to the temple; they were continually praising God in the temple, but that was not intended to continue, and so the second treatise of Luke introduces the thought of mount Olivet. The ascension is connected with mount Olivet. And the disciples returning to the city went to the upper room, not to the temple. That is to say there was intended to be a gradual disappearance of mere Judaism and the

establishment of what is properly Christian. So that the term Christian is an oracular term which indicates that God intended it to cover the position now from the time that Paul's ministry was established.

Ques. Do we see that first developing at Antioch when Barnabas seeks out Saul and they taught a large crowd?

J.T. That is what I was thinking. Paul and Barnabas taught a large crowd, as you say. They taught them in the assembly, which is remarkable, as if that was to prevail -- teaching in the assembly. And so it is in later days, as in Acts 20 where Luke tells us that they assembled, "We being assembled to break bread, ..." Not simply being gathered together, but being assembled. And the Lord would, I am sure, impress this upon us, that our expressions should be correct, derived as it were from heaven and have a heavenly character to them. Especially now, because we are dealing with a chapter which deals with heaven typically -- the report of the spies as to the land. It was no question of the wilderness, but the land -- the land of promise.

Ques. What difference do you make between being gathered and being assembled?

J.T. It is said of the Lord Himself in Acts 1, "being assembled with them". And in several instances later it is not simply being gathered but being assembled. It is not indeed the word that refers to the assembly later, but it is the idea of the assembly. Not just gathered together as at a railway station or in a house as at an ordinary social or family time, but being assembled with a certain attitude in the mind and in the heart. That is, it makes way for God and God's things, especially the Lord's supper.

Rem. I think it would help us if, as you say, the new covenant does not apply to us, if you would say something about what we get in 1 Corinthians 11, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood".

J.T. Well, it is there, of course, and other things are there in 2 Corinthians 3. But it is not in letter but in spirit, as it says. The reference is spiritual, and intended to run into Christianity. Because the new covenant was made with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. The Lord does not say anything different from that, but He does say it is in His blood, and it was in His blood as they drank it, "As oft as ye drink it". And it is remarkable that the writer, Paul, alludes to "after having supped", the passing by of the Passover time. "After having supped" means that the Passover had come to an end and it was now the Lord's supper, which means Christianity. So that it is said, "In like manner also the cup, after having supped, saying, This cup is the new covenant in my blood: this do, as often as ye shall drink it, in remembrance of me". Or, "For the calling me to mind". It is a memorial just as the bread is. It is only said to be a memorial there, that is, in Paul's message from the Lord. It is only said there. The bread is said to be a memorial in Luke and it is also said in 1 Corinthians 11. That was the Lord's message from heaven through Paul, because the apostle says, "I received from the Lord ...". He does not say he received it from the twelve; he received it from the Lord.

Ques. Was he like the twelve spies coming back with the heavenly light?

J.T. It was that exactly, which is very important to keep in mind. He was a heavenly man; "an elect vessel to me", the Lord says.

Rem. So that the light of heaven came more into prominence at Antioch than at Jerusalem.

J.T. Well, I would say that. The service of Paul and Barnabas at Antioch is to be noted. It was said to be in the assembly; not simply in a meeting place or hall, but in the assembly, which has its own distinction. And then beyond that in Acts 13 the

service of God is already current, it was proceeding. It is said, "Now there were in Antioch, in the assembly which was there, prophets and teachers: Barnabas, and Simeon who was called Niger, and Lucius the Cyrenian, and Manaen, foster-brother of Herod the tetrarch, and Saul. And as they were ministering to the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, Separate me now Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them", showing it was an epoch; the time had come for it and it was a question of the Spirit Himself; it was the Spirit's action. We must read it carefully. Of course, we no doubt do read carefully, but specially should this be so when attention is called to it that the facts stated as to Paul are intended to be a turning point in regard of the testimony. Not indeed that there was any change in a doctrinal way but there was a sort of revival. The advent of Paul was an advent stirring up the saints and leading out into a wider field. And so the first great missionary service of Paul and Barnabas began here and it carries with it the term Christian. As we know, the word is in Acts 11:26, "And so it was with them that for a whole year they were gathered together in the assembly and taught a large crowd: and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch". Then we have chapter 12 which is somewhat parenthetical, but it really indicates a crisis in the history because the allusion is to setting aside Judaism. The king, the whole system, was being dealt with, and the full thought of Herod would show that God was abominating what was going on in turning away from them. But Christianity was to stand on its own footing, and the service was to continue, particularly the service of the Lord's supper.

Ques. Does the fact of ministering to the Lord in chapter 13 refer to the public character of the work?

J.T. That is right. It is the public worship of God, you might say, in that sense.

Rem. I wondered if you meant that it had taken on proper Christian character.

J.T. I think it had. Because of what it says in chapter 11 where it speaks of the disciples being called Christians. The word is oracular, which means that it is intended to be stamped on Christianity. Not simply something which arose out of Judaism but from heaven really.

Ques. What is the significance of it being the Holy Spirit who says, "Separate me now Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them"?

J.T. What is significant is that it is the Holy Spirit Personally who is acting. He is sent down from heaven, but at the same time, in keeping with what we have been remarking, there is an outstanding stress laid here on the Spirit acting Himself. And so it says, "As they were ministering to the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, Separate me now Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them. Then, having fasted and prayed, and having laid their hands on them, they let them go". They are not sent out by the assembly, they are let go, but let go with the assembly's sympathy and fellowship. "They therefore, having been sent forth by the Holy Spirit" -- it does not say they are sent out by the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit -- "went down to Seleucia, and thence sailed away to Cyprus ...", That is the position. So that the idea of missionary work is not ever based on the assembly. It is by the Spirit -- the action of the Spirit.

Ques. Would that be pressing them from within?

J.T. I think it would be. The movement was not simply external. It was external, it could be seen, but it was also inward, which indeed marked Paul's ministry. He says, "God ... was pleased to reveal his Son in me", not to but in me -- "that I may announce him as glad tidings among the nations".

Galatians 1:15, 16. It was an inward thing. Not exactly like what was said to Peter in Matthew 16; the revelation was to Peter, not in him, whereas it was in Paul. And so Paul stresses the idea of the inward man.

Ques. Would it be the extension of what we get in Acts 2:42, "They persevered in the teaching and fellowship of the apostles"? Were you suggesting that Paul and Barnabas should carry this out to the nations?

J.T. Well, it was to bring out the apostolic position, because it was to stamp not only the present dispensation but the millennial time. On the foundations of the wall of the city in Revelation 21 were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. So that the idea of apostolic service was ever to be kept in mind, but at the same time Paul was additional to that -- a special person separated to God's glad tidings and receiving the ministry of the gospel and the ministry of reconciliation, and, indeed, the ministry of the word of God itself because he completed it. So that it was, you might say, a beginning over again, not at all setting aside what was there, only adding what was not there, that is the heavenly side of the position, which is the basis of the service of God. "Minister of the holy places and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord has pitched, and not man" (Hebrews 8:2); which is Christ in heaven. Hebrews is the book of the opened heavens and discloses to us that the ministry is in the heavens.

Rem. Would 2 Corinthians 3 come into it where the apostle speaks of not needing letters to them or from them, they being Christ's epistle written not with ink but the Spirit of the living God? It was the spiritual side that he had in mind. So that the new covenant ministry coming in, it is not in letter but in spirit. It is not a formal matter.

J.T. Quite so. It is not a formal matter. It is

a spiritual matter. And then the Lord Himself is that Spirit, "Now the Lord is the Spirit", 2 Corinthians 3:17.

Ques. Is it right to link this with the Supper on the line of the Lord manifesting His glory?

J.T. It is indeed, and confirms what we are saying as to the thought of the spiritual and heavenly side of things being gradually brought to the front instead of the position being the outcome of Judaism. Because in due time Paul formally states in the second treatise of Luke, "Lo, we turn to the Gentiles". And again at the end of that book, "The salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and they will hear it". And, of course it has gone on on these lines ever since. So we find in Ephesians 2 that the position of the Gentiles is formally recognised by itself as the habitation of God. "In whom ye also are built together for a habitation of God in the Spirit" (verse 22). Not, of course, setting aside the great thought of Jew and Gentile being formed into one body and one house, but the time had come to see that Christianity was coming on to its own footing.

Ques. Would you say that both Mark and Barnabas were tested as to this, and even Peter in connection with Cornelius? Do you think there was a touch of Judaism there which might have hindered them going on with Paul fully?

J.T. There was undoubtedly some feeling about it, but the Spirit of God overcame it. Although in the case of Barnabas and his nephew they left Paul -- you were referring, of course, to Acts 15 -- the contention being so sharp, still the position is that Paul is being led forward. God is distinctively with him. And it is to set out the full position of Christianity, which is to take a westerly course. And so in chapter 16 we have the reference to the jailor and the vision made to Paul leading to the Greek world, "Come over into Macedonia, and help us". And so Paul's course was henceforward in that direction.

Rem. The Spirit particularly guards their movements.

J.T. Quite so. They would have taken a certain easterly course but the Spirit of Jesus did not suffer them, which is remarkable. The vision of Paul had in mind the Greek world, "Come over into Macedonia, and help us". And so from that time forth that is the direction in which the testimony flows.

Rem. They must have been very sensitive as to what the Spirit's feelings were to discern that, do you think? -- the Spirit of Jesus suffering them not.

J.T. I would say that. Confirmed by the vision. Because at that particular time there were visions, Paul's service being accentuated in that sense. He had a vision at Corinth, for instance, indicating that there was to be a great work there; the Lord spoke to him by a vision saying, "I have much people in this city". So that these visions ought to be guides for us to know how things are stressed in any given time.

Ques. In connection with the changeover from Judaism to Christianity is there any suggestion in the early part of Acts 13 in Paul retaining his old name? It is "Barnabas and Saul" when the Spirit calls them out, but later it is Paul.

J.T. Yes. And it is "Paul and his company", the Spirit of God recognising his company -- a remarkable thing. No one else is distinguished in that way, and we should all recognise the way the Lord distinguishes Paul at that time. I think what has been said is to clarify the whole position, and what we have to look at now is the rest of God which is involved in the chapter read in Hebrews. And inasmuch as Psalm 95, which is to warn against the apostasy is touched on in chapter 3, in chapter 4 the setting is clearly the heavenly side, that is to say, the report of the twelve spies, and how it led to rebellion on the part of the mass of the

people, so that only the young ones should go into the land. It really involves a new movement, that is to say, a movement of the younger. The first had failed. And so it says, "For we enter into the rest who have believed; as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, If they shall enter into my rest; although the works had been completed from the foundation of the world. For he has said somewhere" (the allusion is to the creation now) "of the seventh day thus, And God rested on the seventh day from all his works": it is a very touching thing because it comes in here to show how our sympathy should arise towards God in His wonderful creative works and how His love really underlay all that He was doing. For it was not a question of the primary works of creation, but how God brought the creation into its present form with a view to Christianity and the great testimony in mind.

And so it is said in Genesis and in Exodus that God rested. It is not said in Genesis that He was refreshed, but in Exodus it is said that He rested and was refreshed. So that we are to be in sympathy with God in His creative works as well as His redemptive works. So here, "and in this again, If they shall enter into my rest. Seeing therefore it remains that some enter into it, and those who first received the glad tidings did not enter in on account of not hearkening to the word, again he determines a certain day, saying, in David, 'To-day', after so long a time; (according as it has been said before), To-day, if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts". That is to say, the Spirit of God is stressing the danger of hardening our hearts, which is the present condition in Christendom, a hard state of things leading to the general apostasy and all the more stressing the need of the brethren who have the truth, and faith, to continue and persevere in it. So that it says, "Seeing therefore it remains that some enter into it".

That is, some enter into it, and it is a question of seeing to it that we all enter into it -- the time of the rest of God.

Ques. What are we to understand today by entering into the rest of God?

J.T. I think it has to be taken up from the Old Testament and see what is meant. What is God doing at the present time? What is this great revival that God has brought about that extends to our present time? What does it mean? It means that we are going to heaven. Some enter into it, but the question is whether we are now seeing to it that we are entering into it. "Let us therefore use diligence to enter into that rest".

Ques. Is God speaking in David today? It says, "Saying, in David ..."

J.T. Well, that just means Psalm 95 here, because David you might say is the editor of the Psalm; he is the sweet psalmist of Israel, and his Psalms were a prophetic thing. David was a prophet, and all the prophets have their voice, you know. We read of "the voices of the prophets" in Acts 13.

Ques. Instead of looking at the Psalm as what David said, do you look at it as the word of God?

J.T. Exactly. It is the word of God. Not hearkening to the word is the point here. "Let us therefore use diligence to enter into that rest, that no one may fall after the same example of not hearkening to the word" (verse 11). Hence the idea of the word of God is enlarged on as we look at the next verse, "For the word of God is living and operative, and sharper than any two-edged sword, and penetrating to the division of soul and spirit, both of joints and marrow, and a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart". The point is whether we are hearkening to the word. Because the glad tidings are being preached to us -- the glad tidings of the land. Not simply the glad tidings of salvation preached as Paul says to

all the world, but the glad tidings of heaven. That is what the report of the spies brought out, telling the people that the land was good. It was an exceedingly good land. But the mass of the people did not hearken to it.

Ques. Does this refer to the gospel for believers?

J.T. That is what I would say. Of course, you might also say it is a gospel for anyone; but it is a gospel intended to remind us that we are going to heaven and we are to be ready to go in.

Rem. Mr. Coates used to speak of a heavenly present.

J.T. Quite so. That is the idea. Because we have already access to it. Therefore it is said that we are raised up together and made to sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus. That is a heavenly present -- not simply a heavenly future but a heavenly present -- what we do now.

Rem. Does that mean that we leave everything connected with the wilderness? While we are here we have our responsibilities and there are various things we have to touch, but in our spirits we leave all that and cross over the Jordan.

J.T. And so Moses when speaking to Hobab, his father-in-law, proposes that he should be eyes to them in the wilderness as they were journeying to the land. But Hobab refused; he would stay in the wilderness. Whereas Christianity is not to stay in the wilderness; we are simply to pass through it. We are journeying to the land God has promised us. The point is, If we believe if we really believe what this gospel means we belong to heaven.

Rem. Those who believe enter into the enjoyment of the rest of God. "For we enter into the rest who have believed".

J.T. That is what is meant.

Rem. And then it says, "As he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, If they shall enter into my rest".

J.T. The 'if' there means that they did not. But then some have entered in and the question now is whether we all make a point of it to enter. The way is open to us to enter the rest of God.

Rem. Not to harden the heart so that it becomes less sensitive to divine speaking.

J.T. Exactly. Because the wilderness in itself has a hardening character. The hard road they had to travel, they grew weary of it, we are told. It does harden us. Hence the point here is that we see to it that we are going into the land. Hobab would not go; he would remain in the wilderness. Many are doing that and settling down here. And so the Lord says in the letter to Philadelphia, "I also will keep thee out of the hour of trial, which is about to come upon the whole habitable world, to try them that dwell upon the earth". Earth dwellers are not going in.

Ques. Would the word of God as presented to the Corinthians in Acts 18 help? Paul remained with them for a year and six months teaching the word of God. I wondered whether it was basic to our entering in.

J.T. Quite so. It was the word of God, not the word of the Lord there. The Lord had a large number of people in that city. It was a terribly bad city, but then the point in the Lord's mind would be what could be done in spite of the badness, whether we can go through. And so we have more about the assembly in its public character -- the formation and structure of it -- in the epistles to the Corinthians than anywhere. And the Lord's supper peculiarly is set in a wilderness position, and the service of God begins with it and then we go on from glory to glory to the higher levels which we get in Ephesians. Paul came in at Ephesus by way of the upper regions. And so it is that the service of God is to begin with the Lord's supper according to what we have been saying, but then it

does not stop there, it goes on to the higher levels, that is to say, the full thought of the service of God. Hence the ministry in the second epistle is much more spiritual than it is in the first.

Ques. In verse 12 does it mean that the word of God discovers to us what the hindrances are that would keep us from entering into the rest?

J.T. The danger would be not hearkening to it. "For the word of God is living and operative, and sharper than any two-edged sword, and penetrating to the division of soul and spirit, both of joints and marrow, and a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. And there is not a creature unapparent before him; but all things are naked and laid bare to his eyes, with whom we have to do". So that the idea is not simply the unfolding of divine counsels in Scripture or in ministry, but the word of God is that by which God can deal with evil in us, and hence the danger of evading it. We see what can happen to us if we do not hearken.

Rem. This would go further than what is referred to in the second chapter, the "great salvation"

J.T. This does go further, by inference. Because in 2 Timothy the apostle Paul urges Timothy to "preach the word". That is a higher thought than simply the glad tidings. And it is the word here that is in mind. And so whilst there is the danger of evading what is presented in the word and failing to enter in, the Priesthood of Christ is brought in in verses 14 - 16 so as to help us in and to keep us from falling. "Having therefore a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast the confession". (That is, the confession of Christianity). "For we have not a high priest not able to sympathise with our infirmities, but tempted in all things in like manner, sin apart. Let us approach therefore with boldness to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy, and

seasonable help". The priesthood of Christ is brought in so that we might not fall in the wilderness. The High Priest from that point of view is to support us in our weakness. Not to allow us to go on in sin, because sin is apostasy in Hebrews. He supports us in weakness; as the Lord said to Paul, "My grace suffices thee; for my power is perfected in weakness", 2 Corinthians 12:9.

Ques. Does the service of the Priest bring us to God's viewpoint and feelings about this matter?

J.T. I would say so. He is touched with the feeling of our infirmities. The priesthood of Christ is the reflection of God's own heart for His people. Why then should we turn away in unbelief?

Ques. God waits upon us so as to bring us into sympathy with His own heart. Does the service of the Priest bring us to this?

J.T. That is so, and that brings us to another point. The system which we are in has a High Priest above, in heaven, and the Holy Spirit here, so that an impregnable position is opened up to us.

We have the intercession of Christ in heaven as we read in John's first epistle, "If any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous". There we have a reference to sin, but Hebrews does not contemplate sin as at all owned in the believer. He is to be relieved of it. As said before, sin is apostasy in Hebrews. We read of it in chapter 6 particularly: if they have fallen away there is no hope for them -- a most solemn thing. At the same time the priesthood is running parallel all the time. That is, the priest is sympathetic with us, not with our sinful ways but in our weaknesses, and hence it says, "Let us approach therefore with boldness to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy, and find grace for seasonable help". Why should we turn away? We have such a system; Christ above and the Holy Spirit below and the assembly here with all

its privileges. We are furnished in the most wonderful way so that we should go on to the end. As it says, "Let us go on".

Rem. It should encourage us to go on.

J.T. It ought to touch us that God has set up such a system for us -- the Lord our great High Priest above and the Holy Spirit here, also sympathetic with us, who "makes intercession with groanings which cannot be uttered", Romans 8:26.

Ques. Why does it say in verse 14, "Who has passed through the heavens"? Does it show how much greater this is than the Jewish system?

J.T. Yes, to bring out that very thing. Meaning that He is a divine Person, because no creature goes beyond the heavens. Creation is where we may go, but the uncreated condition is where God is,"dwelling in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen, nor is able to see", 1 Timothy 6:16.

Ques. Why is faith linked with hearing? "Not being mixed with faith in those who heard" (verse 2).

J.T. I think it would be well to look at the modus of faith in Romans 10, beginning at verse 10, "For with the heart is believed to righteousness; and with the mouth confession made to salvation. For the scripture says, No one believing on him shall be ashamed. For there is no difference of Jew and Greek; for the same Lord of all is rich towards all that call upon him. For every one whosoever, who shall call on the name of the Lord, shall be saved. How then shall they call upon him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe on him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without one who preaches? and how shall they preach unless they have been sent? according as it is written, How beautiful the feet of them that announce glad tidings of peace, of them that announce glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the glad tidings. For Esaias says, Lord, who

has believed our report? So faith then is by a report, but the report by God's word".

Well, that is the thing to understand. The hearing is the basis of faith. There is the report, but it is what is possible through the ear, what it effects. Faith is by a report, and the report is by God's word. God's word is the more positive side of it, the substantial side, but the report is there. So that faith is the product, and what we are dealing with now is the question of faith in the word of God. And added to that is the support and sympathy of Christ as Priest.

Ques. Does the gift come in that way -- by way of the report -- faith being the gift of God?

J.T. Exactly. It does away with irresponsibility. People are so irresponsible. And as to faith, the avenue of the report is through the hearing.

Rem. It is to affect the heart.

J.T. Quite so. "With the heart is believed to righteousness".

Rem. "For every one whosoever, who shall call on the name of the Lord, shall be saved". It is very touching, as though it would move us on evangelical lines.

Rem. It makes the ministry very important, because it says, "How shall they hear without one who preaches?"

J.T. Quite so. Hence preachers according to 2 Timothy should "preach the word". Not simply the glad tidings but the word of God. I think that is the word at the present time, "Preach the word", and all the responsibility that attaches to the non-hearing of the word of God, because the word of God carries its own judgment with it, its own penalties. As we see here, it is "living and operative, and sharper than any two-edged sword, and penetrating to the division of soul and spirit, both of joints and marrow, and a discerner of the thoughts and intents

of the heart. And there is not a creature unapparent before him; but all things are naked and laid bare to his eyes, with whom we have to do". So that the word of God runs on to the thought of God Himself. "Him ... with whom we have to do". And this epistle opens up the terribleness of failing to hearken to the word. There is so much opened up to us, and if we fail to hearken to it the penalties are attached.

Rem. The last chapter of the epistle refers to remembering those "who have spoken to you the word of God".

J.T. Yes, and then the present ministers, too, are referred to in that chapter -- those who minister at the present time.

CHRISTIANITY AS SUPERSEDING JUDAISM

Acts 7:54 - 60; Acts 11:19 - 26; Acts 13:1 - 13

J.T. The ministry of Paul and Barnabas is in mind in these scriptures, showing how Judaism is about to disappear, especially because it had refused the testimony of Stephen to Christ; and then, in general, it was because apostasy from the truth of Christianity already testified to by the twelve had begun; and then politically it was because murder appeared against the ministry, for Herod had slain James with the sword, and had already put Peter in prison, and would have slain him, too. Then in the evident purpose of God it was designed that Christianity should get its own name and character as devoid of Jewish terms, as in "the covenant" and such expressions. Hence "the disciples were first called Christians" here, and then there is the selection of Paul, in view of the divine counsels for him, particularly that he should complete the word of God. Thus we see the manifest rise of his personality, called by the Lord Himself "an elect vessel" unto Him; Acts 9:15. The time, too, had come for a revival, as well as an assertion of its distinctiveness as from heaven. Paul presents the heavenly side of the truth, and Barnabas was evidently called to be with him; and as commissioned by the Spirit they were seen in Antioch. They began ministering there, and it lasted for a year, the assembly being designated as the place of it; a large crowd became merged through their ministry, and became the assembly in Antioch. So that the Gentiles are in mind, and it is hoped we may see that it was all necessary and effective. We have thus come in; Judaism has gone, unless for a few outward things. At the same time the purpose of God stands, according to Romans, as Paul says, "and

so all Israel shall be saved", Romans 11:26. We have here, in these scriptures, the death of Herod, as representing the corrupt state of that section of the world; and then we have Bar-jesus in chapter 13, pointing to the religious side, and described in the most positive terms as being wicked and of the devil. So that what is stated of Christianity synchronises with this, as it is said (1 Thessalonians 2:16), "but wrath has come upon them to the uttermost", the service of God, however, is to go on in the assembly.

P.L. The enemy's yoke was to be destroyed from Israel because of the anointing, in the prophet Isaiah.

J.T. Where is the passage?

P.L. In Isaiah 10:27; it is somewhat akin to Herod?

J.T. Let us read it, "And it shall come to pass in that day, that his burden shall be taken away from off thy shoulder, and his yoke from off thy neck; and the yoke shall be destroyed because of the anointing ..."; a helpful reference. The epistle of Galatians helps, too, by the apostle denouncing their turning aside, "how do ye turn again to the weak and beggarly principles to which ye desire to be again anew in bondage?" (Galatians 4:9), as having been delivered because of the Spirit and having received Him; the testimony being that "The just shall live on the principle of faith" (Galatians 3:11), otherwise it is judgment.

Rem. He uses strong language!

J.T. It is the same as in Genesis 15, where we have the word of God as it is now, and the Holy Spirit in our hearts. The word of God came to Abram, and the first thing is, "Fear not", which is a word for us all, because there is much to fear if we are relying on ourselves, but not if we are relying on God.

Ques. Why does Stephen speak of Jehovah as "the God of glory", Acts 7:2?

J.T. He began with that himself, for they "saw his face as the face of an angel"; that is why I began with Stephen, the great martyr, and that his words should be before us, "And hearing these things they were cut to the heart, and gnashed their teeth against him. But being full of the Holy Spirit, having fixed his eyes on heaven, he saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God, and said, Lo, I behold the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing at the right hand of God. And they cried out with a loud voice, and held their cars, and rushed upon him with one accord; and having cast him out of the city, they stoned him. And the witnesses laid aside their clothes at the feet of a young man called Saul. And they stoned Stephen, praying, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. And kneeling down, he cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And having said this, he fell asleep". The time had come that this sin should not be laid to their charge. The solemn truth of the death of Stephen is taken up, and Paul and Barnabas came forward.

P.L. Does the mission of the servant of Abraham following the death of Sarah come in here?

J.T. The death of Sarah certainly applies and Isaac, I think, as a man of leisure, not of toil. The death of Sarah would point to the moral death of Israel alluded to in Ezekiel 37, where the dry bones are seen coming up clothed in the power of prophecy; they are "an exceeding great army ... these bones are the whole house of Israel", Ezekiel 37:10, 11. They are held in abeyance now, Sarah's death held till then, and it comes out in Paul's ministry; Barnabas had a part in it, too. The truth of the Lord's supper comes in for us at this juncture as witness the apostles in Acts 2, who had the breaking of bread, and the converts persevering "in the teaching and fellowship of the apostles, in breaking of

bread and prayers" (Acts 2:42); and also there is the breaking bread in the house (verse 46), not in the temple, for it was never connected with that, never therefore with Judaism. We may have used the terms, but as Paul presents it the breaking of bread was never calculated to remain in the house, but to be in connection with the assembly; it was not for the ordinary house of the believer, he had only to eat and to drink in it; it is not for celebrating the Lord's supper; that is celebrated in the assembly, and all the terms attached to it are there, as delivered to Paul.

Rem. We should get free from Jewish terms such as the covenant.

J.T. Yes; we do not get them in Colossians or Ephesians; the terms proper to it do not include the covenant. The term 'covenant' is found in connection with the Lord's supper, but it is the Spirit we want, not the letter.

Rem. One desires to see the saints enjoying this liberty.

J.T. I do, indeed.

Rem. It is "the new covenant in my blood", 1 Corinthians 11:25.

J.T. He uses that beautiful expression in 1 Corinthians, in the law of the house, and in 2 Corinthians we regard it, too, as the word of the law-giver, making way for the reception of the Spirit in the wilderness, "Rise up, well! sing unto it", Numbers 21:17.

P.L. Is that the law of the house?

J.T. I thought of that; so that those that saw Him go up, went to the upper room in Acts 1, not to the temple (that was from Bethany in Luke 24 and they were "in the temple praising and blessing God"), but the "upper chamber" housed the assembly; the names are given, and the Lord's mother and His brethren are all there.

Ques. In Romans 16 Paul says, "Salute Prisca and Aquila ... and the assembly at their house"

(verses 3 - 5). Would a house be a suitable meeting-room today?

J.T. From 1 Corinthians 11:22 it is clear that houses are for "eating and drinking", but if one has to be used for a meeting-room, that is quite suitable.

Ques. Has the taking of the Lord's supper a heavenly character?

J.T. Yes; it is associated with the assembly, and she has a heavenly character. So we have this section before us in which Paul is so prominent; it is because of what he is morally; hence we have later "Paul and his company".

Ques. What features would we see in Barnabas?

J.T. I think he was knighted by the apostles peculiarly, especially in chapter 4: 36 and he had the place of an apostle; but this means on moral grounds, like the heavenly city, where all is on moral lines in the power of the Spirit.

Ques. Why is Paul so authoritative in the laying out of the Lord's supper, and to such a company as at Corinth?

J.T. He was alone equal to it, and no one was so recognised as such, as Paul. He never fails. That is the only way I think of it. The Lord had this man, the man He needed; He had, in a way, waited for him. In the first treatise of Luke the Lord goes up immediately, as if hastening to take on the administrative service, but the second treatise gives a delay of forty days; and why was it Paul was used? Well, because he was "an elect vessel to me", the Lord says; no one else is so designated. And so you see more about directions and commandments with him than with any one, as in 1 Corinthians 11:16, "We have no such custom, nor the assemblies of God"; that shows how authoritative he is.

Ques. Have we to be governed by Paul's presentation of the Supper?