Pages 1 to 364, "Divine Activities in Support of the Testimony". Readings and Addresses at Brisbane and Melbourne, 1947 - 48. (Volume 176).

DIVINE ACTIVITIES IN SUPPORT OF THE TESTIMONY (1)

Hebrews 1:14;Hebrews 12:22 - 24

J.T. I have in mind the peculiar situation, which exists in these countries. The power of human associations to set aside what is of God, and whether the brethren are aware of it, and how it is to be met, and the means God has given to us, which is of course the Spirit, but the Spirit in a special way, that is what we have come to in the book of Hebrews: "Ye have come to mount Zion; and to the city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem". I thought a little of the instrumentality of the Spirit in that sense, and what we have come to, amongst other things an innumerable company of angels, and whether we apprehend this in the book of Hebrews, and whether we are bringing these things in in prayer. The expression "Ye have come to", is not necessarily what we have personally and individually appropriated, but to what we have come. That is to say, it is available. It is a question of our nearness, and, of course, that would depend on our state. The expression "The Lord is near" (Philippians 4:5) is to indicate that He is not far away, but ready to join in where He is needed. So that it is a question of what brethren discern is needed.

R.P. There is a system of things operating in Hebrews administratively under the Lord's hand.

J.T. That is right, a system of things, Christ being the Head of it. Hence we have to learn to speak systematically, and to understand systematically, using our senses. So that Luke said he wrote

with method. Every person, who believes is brought into the system, as at Pentecost three thousand were brought into it, and so as Peter finished, those who were affected spoke to Peter and the others; that is to say, they recognised the system. Peter was not everything; the Lord, of course, was everything, but yet in another sense He was not, because it was a system and included all that were added, because it says "the Lord added to the assembly daily those that were to be saved (Acts 2:47)". The system was there and was added to.

P.A.H. We are brought into this living system then, as added persons.

J.T. The system did not begin until Christ ascended into heaven, and the Spirit came down. Certain things had to happen, and they happened in order; first Christ had to be installed in heaven, where He is, and then He received from the Father the promise of the Spirit, and shed It forth. So the Spirit was there to be heard; "which ye now see and hear (Acts 2:33)". Then those who were affected said to Peter and the other apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do? (Acts 2:37)" and Peter answered them, and we are told that they who accepted his word persevered in the teaching and fellowship of the apostles; not of Moses or the prophets, but of the apostles. The Lord had fitted these men to speak, and they spoke, and so the system began and functioned, and it functions still, although centuries have elapsed. It is the same system, and it functions still, and so the question now is, how are we applying what is available to us in it to meet current conditions?

E.N.J. Are you thinking that the Holy Spirit has the chief place in this system which you have mentioned, and then that the angels have a place in it and are available to us?

J.T. That is what I was thinking. We have come to the system, including the angels. Persons come

into it, like the woman of Samaria. She came out to draw water; she was identified with her vessel, but she left it. She left her vessel and went away into the city and came to the men, and said, "Come, see a man who told me all things I had ever done: is not he the Christ?" John 4:29. She then, in that practical way, became an item in the system.

C.G.McC. In this system have we everything that we need to maintain us in the pathway?

J.T. That is it. Everything that is needed, not any extraneous things there, all needed things. There is much more that God has that is needed, but that is not for our system. He will have another system, and have suitable persons to work in it, but now He is working in the assembly.

R.P. Does the administration of angels stand in relation to physical conditions through which the saints are passing?

J.T. Yes, it would. We can easily show that from various examples throughout the book of Acts, and the epistles, as well as throughout the Old Testament. In the Old Testament we have an early instance of angelic ministry in the visit to Abraham. Two of the visitors were angels, the other was Jehovah. It soon became evident that they were detached for the moment from Jehovah in order to attend to Lot in Sodom. God said, "Shall I hide from Abraham, that thing which I do (Genesis 18:17)". The thing was not hidden from Abraham; he came into it and interceded for Lot. Then, of course, there are other things that could be said about them, how angels acted for the saints, and how they are still acting for the saints, as in Acts 12. Peter was in prison and he was aided to clothe himself, and one thing after another happened until he came to the iron gate, and it opened of itself; and so he came to the saints, but the saints were not ready for him; although they had been praying, they were not ready

for him. There was one who listened, who knew his voice; that was Rhoda. Hence the movement began and Herod was smitten; it was angelic action against physical conditions. Now we have an opposing system of men and women, but particularly of men, and they are ready to apply physical conditions, even violence if necessary, and that is what we have to contend with.

E.N.J. You would attribute the opening of the iron gate to angelic power, and that would be suggestive of what angelic power might do in relation to the Roman Empire at the end?

J.T. The immediate instrumentality of that is in the prayers of the saints. They prayed in Jerusalem urgently for Peter, but then they did not have faith in their prayers. They did not believe it was Peter, but it was really Peter, and Rhoda said that. She insisted it was Peter, and that is the thing; that we are assured of what we are doing, and what is acting for us. So Peter himself says, "Now I know certainly that the Lord has sent forth his angel and has taken me out of the hand of Herod (Acts 12:11)". So Peter came to himself. He came down one street, showing how God comes down to our natural physical circumstances, and, if necessary, to act against them if they are adverse. Not indeed that we join the army; we do not need to do that. We are obligated by God to refuse to take men's lives, but we may thank God that the governments today are allowing us to serve in other ways than to take men's lives, and it may be that God would help us too as to these unions, that they may have to recognise human rights, and prayer may lead them to come to that.

E.N.J. There seemed to be a combination of power against the apostle and those with him on the boat in Acts 27:23,24, and Paul says, "For an angel of the God, whose I am and whom I serve, stood by me this night, saying, Fear not, Paul".

J.T. That is very good, and in accord with what we are saying, that God will come in for us. Many of us older ones know that God has come in for us, for the Lord's people, through two terrible wars, and has caused them to stop; and He can do more than that. It is a question of our having confidence in God, and that is the point in these chapters read, that we have come to mount Zion. It is the verse that refers to power. The mountain is power, hut it is mount Zion; it is not mount Sinai. It is grace reigning through righteousness, so that we are on those lines, and hence we have the prayer meeting on Monday night, and God recognises the places where prayer is wont to be made, and answers the prayers.

P.A.H. So we need to recognise that myriads of angels are in this system to which we have come; perhaps we have not thought sufficiently about the service that God would render through them.

J.T. The word 'myriads' is used, showing there are a great number; we might say uncountable as far as we are concerned. The Lord says, "more than twelve legions" of them; He could ask for them.

J.M. Would it be a parallel in 2 Kings 6:17, when Elisha prayed that his servant's eyes might be opened that he might see?

J.T. So Psalm 68:17 says, "The chariots of God are twenty thousand, thousands upon thousands; the Lord is among them". The prophet asked that the young man's eyes might be opened to see this, and perhaps that is the point now, that our eyes might be opened to see what is in our favour.

P.R.P. Why do you think this power has not been manifested more than it has?

J.T. I would say because it has not been asked for. It is not that God is dependent on what we ask, but it does say He is able to do more than we ask or think. All power is subordinated to the

present position, of Christ: "Sit at my right hand until I put thine enemies as footstool of thy feet", (Hebrews 1:13). So in chapter 2, verse 5, we are told that, "He has not subjected to angels the habitable world which is to come, of which we speak";(Hebrews 2:5) that is, He has not placed that under angels. The millennium will not be placed under angels any more than our dispensation is formally. Our dispensation is placed under Christ; everything is put under Him; principalities and powers are put under Him.

J.S.P. It was not until God heard the groaning of the children of Israel that He came down to deliver them.

J.T. God said that He heard their groaning, showing that it is well worth groaning if we need something.

P.R.P. Is there to be a moral accordance with us along with this asking?

J.T. Just so. The Lord may do things for us With which we are not in moral accord, because we are His people. He thinks of us in that light, and we are told much of asking, even as to the Spirit of God: "How much rather shall the Father who is of heaven give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?" (Luke 11:13). That shows how much God is ready to give us on the ground of asking.

C.E.J. Would Daniel 6:10 suggest the same thought? When he knew that the writing was signed, "he kneeled on his knees three times a day, and prayed and gave thanks before his God, as he did aforetime (Daniel 6:10)". Later he was able to say to the king, "My God hath sent his angel, and hath shut the lions' mouths (Daniel 6:22)".

J.T. Very excellent example. The book of Daniel affords much in that sense for us.

P.R.P. Do you link up the matter of faith with this?

J.T. Exactly. Without faith it is impossible to

please God. So we do well to link it up with it. Even if we are to have forgiveness of our sins, we have to have faith to get it.

R.P. James makes much of individual faith, saying, "The fervent supplication of the righteous man has much power", James 5:16.

J.T. Showing what righteous men do, and so it is that Abraham was heard, because he was righteous: "Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do; ... for I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him", (Genesis 18:17 - 19). God bases things on what Abraham would do.

P.A.H. Would angels be active today, do you think? The angel said to Philip, "Rise up and go southward", (Acts 8:26). Do you think angels would be serving in that regard today?

J.T. Yes, only the dispensation requires that we ask for things which are named. We ask for angels, but then there are only two that are named; although there may be many, because God names all the angels as He names all the stars. He is not making much of them; though He might make much more than He makes in the scriptures we have, and there may be much more made of them in a further dispensation, but it is for us to go by the words written; as the Lord says, "It is written". When He was attacked by the devil, in every case He says, "It is written". We go by the words written.

E.N.J. In relation to things that are done, and the power that is required, in relation to the assembly and its functions here, should we speak to the Lord, or the Father, in relation to the presence of the Spirit? I was thinking, too, in relation to angels, is it not more in connection with the nations and the powers that be?

J.T. I think it is what we might call governmental things, things which stand in relation to God's

government on the earth; He might use unconverted men. We would not like to ask Him to use an unconverted man, and yet God is using such men.

R.P. Would that not mean salvation in a practical sense? "Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?"

J.T. That is what it says here in the verse read. We cannot say how many there are, but we can say there is an innumerable company, but it would hardly be intelligent for us to ask Him to send Michael. We have to go by what is written. Although we do know that Michael contended with the devil about the body of Moses, and we do know that Michael will make war with the devil and his angels. But he is only one. Therefore the intelligent way would be to ask God to send the necessary power on our behalf.

J.McN. We see how the Lord could say that the Father could furnish Him with more than twelve legions of angels; but He pointed out the necessity of the Scriptures being fulfilled.

J.T. Very good. We are not told the Lord asked for them, either.

G.W.A. Is there to be agreement with us in relation to this matter? Matthew 18 suggests we are agreed in relation to our requests, if there is to be power.

J.T. That is a very good point, and it is to draw us together, that we are all one, one body, one Spirit, one according to Ephesians 4:3 - 6 "Using diligence to keep the unity of the Spirit in the uniting bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit, as ye have been also called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in us all". So that we can easily name what we want, what we will ask for. And so it says,

"It shall be done for them", Matthew 18:19. Not simply done, but done for them . That is to say God is taking account of the ones who are asking.

J.J.J. Would fasting come into this? You referred to the book of Esther in relation to fasting.

J.T. Well, some of us were speaking about that today, how Mordecai urged Esther to come into the matter, although she had already become queen, because the Jews were appointed to death because of Haman's influence with the king. She took her life into her hands and went and asked the king, but she did not ask the Jews to pray, but asked them to fast. God was working for them, although hiding His face from them.

J.M. Are our faces to be set in the direction of our prayers? In Daniel, in relation to the three Hebrew children, it says they were not prepared to bow. Their face was set in that direction.

J.T. Then they had Another with them, there was a fourth. It is a great addition, because it shows that the Son of God intervenes to help us in what engages us. We ask everything in His name .

P.A.H. On their side they were prepared to yield their bodies. It reads, "And yielded their bodies, that they might not serve nor worship any god, except their own God!"(Daniel 3:28) That is their part; they were prepared to suffer.

J.T. That is what Esther did. She did what she should not have done according to the law, and she found favour in the king's sight. Well, we can count on that. The ground she acted on was fasting, denying herself something, and exposing herself to the greatest danger, the loss of her life. So we have to die for the truth. "Unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake", (Philippians 1:29).

P.A.H. Esther says, as she took her life in her hands, "If I perish, I perish (Esther 4:16)".

J.T. Just so. It was a noble commitment, a noble sacrifice, and God honoured it. It is the most remarkable illustration we get, not of prayer, but of fasting. We get a great deal of it in the Old Testament, but we get it from the Lord's own words: "This kind does not go out but by prayer and fasting", (Matthew 17:21). So if we have to face a difficult matter, we have to fast for it.

E.N.J. Would you open up a little what you have in mind as to fasting in a spiritual way?

J.T. Well, of course, it would not be denying ourselves of going to a theatre. That would not be much. It is more the things that are legitimate that are in mind in fasting, things that are legitimate in themselves. God honours our denying ourselves of them.

C.E.J. Is your thought that fasting makes room for the Holy Spirit?

J.T. I think it does. It displaces the natural, which has no part in the thing. Fasting is a displacement, and the Spirit of God takes up the room made. It is a real sacrifice for the sake of getting certain power.

P.R.P. Were you going to say more about mount Zion, suggesting grace to us?

J.T. Well, we have spoken of that already. We might look at the other things that are mentioned in the twelfth chapter. Mount Zion is the first, then the city of the living God, which goes with it. It is a question of life, the city of the living God, and we know it is called here heavenly Jerusalem. And then the third thing, myriads of angels, which is what we are speaking about, beings that can be used in a physical way if necessary; they are the universal gathering; that expression refers to how the States of Greece assembled together on certain occasions. And then further, the assembly of the firstborn who are registered in heaven is undoubtedly the assembly

that we often speak about; it is ourselves. It is not at a distance from us; we are the persons who form it. We have come to that.

E.N.J. The assembly of the firstborn ones; if we could lay hold of that would it help us to see how unsuitable it is to be connected with any other associations?

J.T. Quite so. The firstborn ones; each of them is a firstborn. It is difficult to grasp the idea of each one being a firstborn, but God has that in His mind. We are all on the same footing; we belong to the assembly of the firstborn registered in heaven.

E.N.J. That would be not only what is in view, all firstborn ones, but we are made firstborn ones constitutionally.

J.T. Exactly, showing how dignified the assembly is. There is nothing else on earth or in heaven to be compared with the assembly. It is a question of persons called firstborn ones.

C.G.McC. What are we to understand by coming to these things? Is it that we have come into the light and truth of them?

J.T. Well, the Spirit too; we have the Holy Spirit, and He operates in us according to that light, so that we learn to pray and ask for things intelligently. There is nothing like it in heaven or on earth. It is the first family. All the families are named of the Father, but the assembly is the first of the families. That is what is alluded to here, the firstborn ones. Then it says "to God, judge of all". What can we have greater than that, because it goes right on to the lake of fire? It is a question of the Judge of all. God has rights in all these things and as to persons.

J.A.A. So that as having come to this system we would have our judgment in accordance with God's mind concerning what is around us.

J.T. That is the ground we take in our prayer

meetings. So that God is the Judge of all. That is the very top. You cannot get higher than that. As to persons, God is the Judge of all, and He has everything in His hands. And then as to spirits of just men, the angels are spirits, but they are not spirits in the sense in which we have spirits. We are not yet wholly spiritual. The Lord is Himself always a Spirit. He is God, but then He has a spirit too, because He is a Man, spirit, soul and body. We are speaking reverently, but we apprehend that He has a spirit, too. He committed His spirit to God. We have come to the spirits of just men made perfect. We have the light that we shall all be raised from the dead, and Matthew would sustain us in that, because he says "many bodies of the saints fallen asleep arose, and ... entered into the holy city and appeared unto many (Matthew 27:52,53)". The idea of the resurrection of just men is seen here. We cannot say just where they are, but we know they are somewhere; we can leave that with God, but we know they rose after Christ arose. We have come to that sort of thing, just men made perfect.

C.E.J. Would you say a word as to how we are to be affected as coming to the spirits of just men made perfect?

J.T. I think it is a question of light. We are to take in the light, and believe in it, "While ye have the light, believe in the light, that ye may become sons of light", (John 12:36). It is a question of believing.

R.P. Would that be a manifestation of the work of God? You can take account of the spirit of a man like Moses or David. That is the work of God.

J.T. They were just men. Abraham was, although God told him in Genesis 15 that he would die, still he had a vision and everything was made real to him. It says a great darkness fell upon him, but he saw certain things which would form him and make

everything real to him; so that we can discern Abraham. The Lord Jesus says of him, "Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad", (John 8:56). How real it was in that way! The Lord could say "he saw it, and was glad".

P.A.H. We are connected with a living system of things; God is God of the living, not of the dead. In that system we have come to the spirits of just men made perfect.

J.T. Just so. When the Lord said to the disciples, "Who do ye say that I am?" and one of them says, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God", (Matthew 16:15,16) that was a revelation given to Peter, but we come into it; and it really is the basis of the assembly, for it is built on Christ as the Son of the living God. It is a living system.

DIVINE ACTIVITIES IN SUPPORT OF THE TESTIMONY (2)

Acts 4:1 - 37

J.T. This chapter shows how God acts, we may say, in a physical sense, to enforce His mind, to enforce the truth of the gospel. The book begins in the main at the second chapter, which relates Peter's gospel address, the result being three thousand souls; the chapters following show how the enemy set to work to oppose, and the facts related indicate, as we said, that God acted as we might say physically, or through physical means, to advance the truth of the Scriptures. Hence it is said in the beginning of this chapter that as "they were speaking to the people, the priests and captain of the temple and the Sadducees came upon them, being distressed on account of their teaching the people and preaching by Jesus the resurrection from among the dead; and they laid hands on them, and put them in ward till the morrow". Now the intervention of God is seen in what we have read. The general thought is that many of those who had heard the word believed. We have already been told that there were three thousand converted, but now it is said here that many of those who had heard the word believed, and the number of the men had become about five thousand, so that God's work was proceeding in great power and with great results.

Then the enemy continued his efforts. It says, "It came to pass on the morrow that their rulers and elders and scribes were gathered together at Jerusalem, and Annas the high priest, and Caiaphas, and John, and Alexander, and as many as were of the high priestly family; and having placed them in the midst they inquired, In what power or in what

name have ye done this? Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, Rulers of the people and elders of Israel, if we this day are called upon to answer as to the good deed done to the infirm man, how he has been healed, be it known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that in the name of Jesus Christ the Nazaraean, whom ye have crucified, whom God has raised from among the dead, by him this man stands here before you sound in body. He is the stone which has been set at nought by you the builders, which is become the corner stone. And salvation is in none other, for neither is there another name under heaven which is given among men by which we must be saved". I thought we had a plain statement there of God's way of furthering His interests on earth, of advancing His testimony and asserting it; and how His people are brought to the truth, and how others are converted.

E.N.J. Is the position held in salvation by what is said in the twelfth verse as to the name?

J.T. Just so. It was really a question of a building, because it was a structure. God intended to rear up a structure, which we know now to be the assembly, and so, "He is the stone which has been set at nought by you the builders, which is become the corner stone. And salvation is in none other, for neither is there another name under heaven which is given among men by which we must be saved".

P.A.H. That would stand good at all times, whatever the position of the testimony might be. That name is all powerful, is it not?

J.T. Just so. At the end of nineteen hundred years or so it is still as good as it was then. It is the rock, as the Lord Jesus said, "On this rock I will build my assembly (Matthew 16:18)". It is a rock that cannot be overthrown. It ought to stimulate our hearts to know that we are thus supported. It is our

privilege to suffer for the truth, and we see here how it is supported.

E.N.J. You were thinking of the maintenance of the position. The lame man in the first place was healed through that name, the name of Jesus Christ the Nazaraean. There is the maintenance of the position, whatever the attack might be.

J.T. Quite so. Whatever the attack might be. That is a good way to put it. There have been many attacks, and they are varied. It would greatly help and strengthen us in our testimony whatever it might be, the testimony as to the gospel, or the testimony of the assembly, to have the sense that God is with His people, as He has promised: "The Lord is with you, while ye be with him", (2 Chronicles 15:2).

J.M. "But seeing the boldness of Peter and John, and perceiving that they were unlettered and uninstructed men, they wondered; and they recognised them that they were with Jesus". Is that the position?

J.T. Quite so. "The righteous are bold as a lion" (Proverbs 28:1), so that we need not fear. The Lord indeed had already said, "Lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world".

P.R.P. "The name of the Lord is a strong tower", (Proverbs 18:10). Would you bring that in?

J.T. Quite so. "The righteous runneth into it, and is safe (Proverbs 18:10)". It is a question of the strength of the tower.

Rem. Is there significance in what is said, that the name is "given among men"? We are among men in our associations.

J.T. Showing that God is thinking of men in His testimony; not angels, although He has them under His hand, for His purposes. We shall see that in the next chapter, where it says in verse 17, "The high priest rising up, and all they that were with him, which is the sect of the Sadducees, were filled with

wrath, and laid hands on the apostles and put them in the public prison. But an angel of the Lord during the night opened the doors of the prison, and leading them out, said, Go ye and stand and speak in the temple to the people all the words of this life Acts 5:17 - 20". That is, the words of the life of Jesus are to be asserted. The angel is ready; as we have already had, we cannot say how many there are. We read of a great multitude of them, but they are available for service, "sent out for service on account of those who shall inherit salvation (Hebrews 1:14)".

P.A.H. So that there is, in the face of opposition, a positive testimony as to the truth, which is important, you would say?

J.T. Quite so.

E.N.J. There seems to be a tendency right from the very outset, for the enemy to band together certain persons and certain companies to increase their power, if possible, against the testimony. We read here that "the priests and captain of the temple and the Sadducees came upon them".

J.T. We see the character of the combination, the Sadducees being infidels really. They do not believe in angel or spirit, and now they are in power instead of the other sect, and therefore arrayed against the truth of the gospel.

R.P. Really setting aside the truth of resurrection on which everything is based in Christianity. All there is for God is on resurrection ground.

J.T. Quite so. It is an invulnerable position. The power of God is centred in resurrection. "Now is Christ risen from the dead", is the testimony in 1 Corinthians 15:20, "and become the firstfruits of them that slept". "How say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?" (1 Corinthians 15:12) That is the thing the Sadducees were saying, and so we know what the nature of the opposition is.

R.P. Do we not see that spirit operating today

with men, using material things to set aside the rights of God?

J.T. Quite so, moving in relation to material things, binding themselves in bundles, as it were, to defend their thoughts. They disregard the thoughts of God, and disregard the gospel.

P.R.P. Is this matter of salvation one feature which is very delightful to God? He delights to be known as the God of salvation.

J.T. Quite so. It is the testimony of the prophets really, but now verified fully in the resurrection of Christ. "Now is Christ risen (1 Corinthians 15:20)". That is the point Peter is making in this chapter. In chapter 3 we are told that "Peter and John went up together into the temple at the hour of prayer, which is the ninth hour; and a certain man who was lame from his mother's womb was being carried, whom they placed every day at the gate of the temple called Beautiful, to ask alms of those who were going into the temple; who, seeing Peter and John about to enter into the temple, asked to receive alms. And Peter, looking stedfastly upon him with John, said, Look on us Acts 3:1 - 4". So that the interest was directed to Peter and John. They were the witnesses there to be looked at, to see what kind of people they were; what Christians are, they are well worth looking at.

J.M. Would there be a correspondence in them to the Man who was raised from the dead? "They recognised them that they were with Jesus", it says.

J.T. Quite so.

R.P. Peter had announced in his preaching, in which three thousand were converted, that God had made this same Jesus, both Lord and Christ. Jesus was supreme in the matter.

J.T. God has settled the matter as to who is to rule. It is a question really of the Jews and Jesus. Jesus came on the behalf of God, and the Jews attacked Him and crucified Him, and now God shows

that He is taking on Jesus. He has raised Him from the dead. The enemy still continues to oppose that Man in one form or another; that Man is always the object of attack, and Peter and John are on His side as witnesses, as we see. "We are his witnesses, (Acts 5:32)" Peter says.

J.McN. Have we in Peter and John a sample of the material of the temple, of which Christ is the corner stone; the building which is impregnable to the attack of the enemy?

J.T. Exactly; the word 'Peter' means a stone. He was the leading apostle, as we know, and so he represents the material of which the building is reared up. The Lord said, "Thou art Peter, and on this rock I will build my assembly", (Matthew 16:18).

E.N.J. Are you thinking that if any of the Lord's people are called upon to give evidence publicly before men, in relation to this great exercise as to associations, there should be something specific in them which would be a testimony to those who inquire?

J.T. Therefore Peter says, "Look on us". They were worthy of attention.

P.A.H. Then further in verse 14, "And beholding the man who had been healed standing with them, they had nothing to reply".

J.T. There was incontestable evidence of the power that was at work on God's behalf towards men.

R.P. They had the opportunity of taking account of this power when Christ was here with Israel. "The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner", had been said by the Lord in power, according to Matthew 21:42, and here is an evidence of the same operation in the saints here below, in the power of the Spirit.

J.T. So, "Beholding the man who had been healed standing with them". He is now identified

with the apostles, he is standing with them -- "they had nothing to reply". Then it goes on to say, "Having commanded them to go out of the council they conferred with one another, saying, What shall we do to these men?" That is the whole problem now; what is to be done with these men, that is to say, the witnesses of Jesus. They had put Jesus to death, but now He is taken out of the way, He has gone into heaven, angels and authorities and powers being made subject to Him; but His witnesses are here, and the enemy attacks the witnesses.

Ques. Is boldness necessary that the testimony may be witnessed to before men?

J.T. Well, that is the idea. These twelve men, that is to say, the twelve apostles, were constituted witnesses; they were not ordinary men, not even ordinary believers; they were constituted powerful men, who were able to stand in the breach to defend the truth, and they can be looked at. You can see them, where they live, and how they live.

J.A.A. It says, "they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and spoke the word of God with boldness".

J.T. That is the point. Our position requires that we are filled with the Holy Spirit; not simply that we are sealed with the Spirit, but filled, at least in measure. There must be some evidence of being filled with the Holy Spirit.

J.S.P. So that they would be in accord with their testimony?

J.T. Quite so.

Ques. Do these men become irresistible on account of what they are, as formed by God?

J.T. Just so. There were none like them. God added after that, but there were none like these twelve. One of the disciples had betrayed the Lord, but he had been replaced by another, so the idea of the twelve is maintained. It is increased, but it is

maintained. The idea of twelve is administration, capable administration.

Rem. While we are living in a day of weakness and breakdown, what was set up in an inaugural way goes through.

J.T. That is the idea. What was inaugurated stands. "These that have turned the world upside down", (Acts 17:6).

J.M. So that the rulers say, "That indeed an evident sign has come to pass through their means is manifest to all that inhabit Jerusalem, and we cannot deny it".

J.T. Yes, something evident; and the point for us is to make things clear; what we have believed, and what we are in consequence of having believed.

J.S.P. It says that they took account of them that they had been with Jesus. The thing was working out.

J.T. Quite so, so that the Lord is seen in the gospels, "Jesus alone" (Matthew 17:8) or "Jesus alone with themselves", (Mark 9:8). That was the thought at the beginning, but now there were a great many more. You can see now the movement is growing, because we are told here that they had become about five thousand, and we shall see it is still growing later.

E.N.J. Is it significant that it is men? The number of the men had become about five thousand.

J.T. Yes; not yet men, women, and children, but men; as if to show that God is taking up men. The book of Proverbs gives the idea. It speaks of wisdom, the wisdom of God, and its delights were with the sons of men; not simply men, but the sons of men; that is, the idea of men viewed in sonship. So that they are in every way attractive as on God's behalf in testimony.

C.G.McC. As we are enabled to speak with boldness, will there always be increase for God?

J.T. I would think so. Wisdom's delight is sonship. Wisdom is a great quality; it is not simply a person; it used to be thought to be a person in Proverbs 8, but it is a great quality, but a quality in God Himself, and its delights are with the sons of men, not with angels, and not with men merely, but sons of men; that is, men in that relation.

J.S.P. This matter of wisdom seems to be very important, because the apostles not only knew the Lord here in flesh and blood, but they knew Him in resurrection; so having to do with men we need to be grounded, so that we can give right witness and right testimony.

J.T. Quite so. The Lord had remained with them forty days so that they might know Him perfectly. In fact they had eaten and drunk with Him after He arose from among the dead.

Rem. Their great concern in their prayer does not seem to be so much their own deliverance, but that they may go on furthering the testimony.

J.T. Quite so. The thing is to be increased. It is a great movement of God. That is the idea of Christianity: a great movement of God, and the quality is there that God can approve.

R.P. The thing is consolidated, would you say? What comes to light is mutual affection, body feelings, unity among the saints.

J.T. We have already alluded to the stones, and that it is a structure; a firm one, an indestructible one, and there is no salvation in any other than in Jesus; and then we are told that they were bold in their efforts, in their preaching. The elders of the Jews saw that, perceiving that they were unlettered and uninstructed men. That is to say, they were not specially polished men. God can get along with them as they are. They were fishermen really, but God could use them, and use them effectively, so that we are thus delivered from mere human education

in the service of God. Not that we are to despise ordinary education, which enables us to read and write, and all that, hut we are not embellishing our young people, making them especially college people. God takes us up as we are, and it is a question of His education, and what He will make of us.

E.N.J. Is this lame man an excellent example of what you have drawn our attention to lately, as to the way judaism is to be set aside? That is to say he is an example of where the Jews were at the time.

J.T. Yes. The truth had come out, and it had become apparent that judaism in itself was failing to be a testimony to God. The epistle to the Hebrews opens up what had been there, and Paul, who, I have no doubt, is the author of the book, speaks of what God had spoken, and that He had spoken in His Son. Everything now is a question of Christ, so that we have come, it says, to mount Zion, the city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem, and then we are told of the kind of men that are in that system.

E.N.J. You are referring to the firstborn ones?

J.T. Quite so, the assembly is formed of them. And Hebrews 12 brings out the elements that are noted in that remarkable chapter, amongst which were men of that kind. I was thinking of "the spirits of just men Hebrews 12:23". We have come to them, to their spirits; not disembodied spirits, but to the spirits of just men made perfect. Actual Christians are of that kind of men to which we have come.

R.P. Those who have filled out their part in the testimony even in a past dispensation. We can take account of them in their own dispensation.

J.T. We can see the types there, like Abraham, who is a great type for us. He is the father of us all, and he was constituted righteous because he believed. That is the kind of man there. Abraham and David and the prophets all show the kind of

men there are in Christianity: "The spirits of just men made perfect (Hebrews 12:23)".

C.P. Would these men not only be justified, but be just men?

J.T. Just men, that is, righteous men. The most important thing to be before us is, I believe, to be righteous, to follow righteousness, faith, love, peace; but righteousness first. Righteousness is our leader.

C.E.J. So it opens in verse 19, "If it be righteous before God to listen to you rather than to God, judge ye".

J.T. It was what Peter and John answering said to them. This is a Peter and John chapter. They say further, "As for us we cannot refrain from speaking of the things which we have seen and heard". There is the testimony. We cannot refrain; we must do it; we are bound to do it on God's behalf.

Rem. These things were the joy and power of their own life.

J.T. Quite so. Now we see in verse 23 how they come together. They love one another; they are a band of their own. "Having been let go, they came to their own". The word 'company' is not there, but the idea is there. It is a question of our own , that is righteous people, people who love one another. "They came to their own company, and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said to them. And they, having heard it, lifted up their voice with one accord to God, and said, Lord, thou art the God who made the heaven and the earth and the sea, and all that is in them; who hast said by the mouth of thy servant David, Why have the nations raged haughtily and the peoples meditated vain things? The kings of the earth were there, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord and against his Christ". The testimony is clearly set out, and these men are in defence of it.

E.N.J. So that it was no new thing for men to be banded together against Christ; and now they were banded together against what was of Christ in the brethren.

R.P. That is really what is set out in testimony, is it not, the substance of what had been revealed to Peter had come out in testimony? "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God".

J.T. Quite so. Christ is the One who does things for God. That is the way I look at it, the way it is presented in the Old Testament. God said, "I have found David, the son of Jesse, a man after my heart, who shall do all my will", (Acts 13:22). And it is a question of being with that Man and following Him. When we come to Paul, we shall see how he was formed after Christ, and he put himself forward as a model for the believers.

C.E.J. We get help on this line if we accept authority, in the recognition of the term "Lord". "Lord, thou art the God who made the heaven and the earth".

J.T. Well, these words would have to be carefully examined to get the full meaning, because the word "Lord" in verse 24 is 'despot', meaning one that is to be thoroughly submitted to.

R.P. He had rights in the universe, and they are to be recognised.

J.T. Quite so. The attitude of master and slave is the idea. That is to say we are subject in that sense, we are thoroughly subject as coming out on the side of Christ, and we cannot afford to be otherwise. We cannot do anything else, but be subject to Christ. And then we read in verse 29, "Now, Lord, look upon their threatenings, and give to thy bondmen with all boldness to speak thy word, in that thou stretchest out thy hand to heal, and that signs and wonders take place through the name of

thy holy servant Jesus". That is to say, these men are not lawless, or against men. They have in their minds that men should be saved, and so they pray, their weapon is to pray. "And when they had prayed, the place in which they were assembled shook, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and spoke the word of God with boldness". We have already noticed that God is acting now in regard to material things, using material things, because it says the place shook where they were assembled.

R.P. There is an outward manifestation of power, and there is an inward result too; they were all filled with the Holy Spirit.

J.T. And they pray as to what is in their mind. It says, "The heart and soul of the multitude of those that had believed were one, and not one said that anything of what he possessed was his own", that is to say, they are not asserting their rights in material things; what they had they were ready to give away. It says "not one said that anything of what he possessed was his own, but all things were common to them", that is to say, love was operative: not banding together to defend property, but simply to give it away, if need be, to help others. "And with great power did the apostles give witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and great grace was upon them all".

P.R.P. Does this raise a question as to how we hold material things?

J.T. I think it does. It is a question, if we have anything, to hold it in love, the circulatory thought; that if we have anything, it is to go round, to circulate.

P.R.P. I was thinking of our occupation. Possibly we are too concerned about it, and not thinking sufficiently for God.

J.T. Too concerned to keep our jobs, and afraid of losing them, instead of thinking of principles. Of

course, we have to work; it says in 2 Thessalonians 3:10, if a man does not work, neither let him eat; but still the concern to keep our jobs is too urgent in our minds, whereas it is a question of the will of God, as this chapter shows us clearly. We are to be here for the will of God, and if need be to suffer. "To you has been given, as regards Christ, not only the believing on him but the suffering for him also", (Philippians 1:29).

W.J.B. Does Peter's epistle help? "Let them who suffer according to the will of God commit their souls in well-doing to a faithful Creator", 1 Peter 4:19.

J.T. Quite so, and suffer as a Christian too. "If as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but glorify God in this name", 1 Peter 4:16.

E.N.J. It says, "Great grace was upon them all". Is that suggestive of the spirit in which we should meet this position?

J.T. Instead of being exacting, and demanding higher wages, and all that sort of thing, great grace is upon us. It is a question of love acting.

E.N.J. It is remarkable that Luke is saying this, because he is the one who was so deeply touched with the grace that was in the Lord Jesus in his gospel.

J.T. "All ... wondered at the words of grace which were coming out of his mouth Luke 4:22". Beautiful testimony!

R.P. This is the character of the testimony that was seen in the assembly in the beginning.

J.T. Therefore the assembly (an appropriate word, meaning a called-out people) is marked by grace, by love, by the idea of giving. God loves a cheerful giver, we are told. "Give, and it shall be given to you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over", (Luke 6:38).

The dispensation, is to be maintained. God has designed to keep it a certain time, and He is keeping it thus. It may stop at any moment, but it has not stopped yet, and the point is to be in the spirit of it, the spirit of Christ.

P.A.H. "In that thou stretchest out thy hand to heal", would be in keeping with that?

J.T. Quite so, very beautiful. And another thing here at the end of the chapter is Barnabas, a typical Christian you might say: "Joseph, who had been surnamed Barnabas by the apostles (which is, being interpreted, Son of consolation), a Levite, Cyprian by birth, being possessed of land, having sold it, brought the money and laid it at the feet of the apostles". He did not give it away, he did not sell it to make money out of it, to put it in the bank; he brought the money and laid it at the feet of the apostles. He made the best use of it, laying it at the feet of the apostles to be administered.

Rem. He was serving divine interests.

J.T. Quite so, and he is ennobled, he is surnamed, showing that that is the idea; as the truth progresses, these things come to light. There is the idea of nobility, not nobility in a human sense, not man-made titles, but nobility in a true sense according to God.

R.P. Barnabas acquires a place among the saints on moral grounds.

J.T. Just so.

P.R.P. There is a tendency with us to recognise the blessedness of what we have had before us, but also a tendency to say that we are not equal to it ourselves, that we have not faith for such a position. I was wondering if you would help us as to what would encourage one. We feel very weak as having to face men in relation to such matters; we say we have not faith for it.

J.T. We have not faith! We are not Christians, if we say we have not faith: "whatever is not of faith is sin", (Romans 14:23). If you stand up and say, I have not faith for this and that, it is sinful.

P.A.H. Is it a question too, of righteousness? Referring to verse 19 again, "If it be righteous before God to listen to you rather than to God, judge ye".

J.T. How clear that is, and undeniable too. God must be first in everything; and in all these exercises that our young brethren have to face, to my knowledge and that of many others here, their appearing before tribunals and their spirits in this, have been a testimony to God. This has been through the grace in which they have met the tribunals and submitted to them in readiness to do anything that was short of killing; they were ready to work thus for the authorities. That is the kind of men that God will commend; but not those who say, We have not faith for it. That is not Christianity at all. If I have not faith, I am really not a Christian.

C.G.McC. We get great help if we pray. It says here that they prayed that they might have boldness to speak the word of God.

Ques. Is it important to see that they lifted up their voice with one accord to God?

J.T. That is the thing, I am sure. The secret of the victory for the truth is the spirit of prayer. We were speaking about Esther; with her it was a question of fasting, but for the moment we can leave that; here it is a question of prayer.

Rem. At the close of the chapter it says, "neither was there any one in want among them". If we face the matter together, there will not be any want among us.

J.T. Quite so. There was not anybody in want. That is to say, love was operative, but it is a question

of circulation, the circulation of love; but that would mean the circulation of money too, and whatever might be needed for our bodies, but the matter of circulation is a great matter.

E.N.J. One word as to faith. The Lord says, "If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed ... nothing shall be impossible to you", (Matthew 17:20).

J.T. Quite so. How good and clear that is.

DIVINE ACTIVITIES IN SUPPORT OF THE TESTIMONY (3)

Acts 5:1 - 42

J.T. What was remarked this morning is also true of this chapter, that God acts in support of His testimony, and for the help of His people. He acts on physical things and by physical things, as well as spiritual and moral things. He can do this in His own right as God. And so this matter of Ananias and Sapphira serves to promote this thought. It is a matter of discipline, of course, often alluded to and constantly needed, and, of course, more drastic than is usually applied, for it became a question of death; but still it was discipline, and indicates how God may resort to physical things to carry out His thoughts.

R.P. There was this lying to the Holy Spirit right at the beginning of the assembly's history.

J.T. Yes, as it were stressing the thing, so as to impress us at all times with it, just as in 1 Corinthians 5 we have a similar drastic matter, but not so severe as this; but still such as we may make allusion to. God may act severely, for the purpose of establishing a principle which runs down the dispensation. It will be noticed that Peter did not himself have recourse to anything physical in the matter, it was God Himself, but Peter indicated the truth.

C.W.A. Is it important to see in all these matters how these things affect God?

J.T. Quite so; the whole matter is a question of God, really, the whole matter of the dispensation. "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son (Hebrews 1:1,2)".

But it is a question of God; whether it is the Son, or God. Himself, the Father.

J.McN. Is this to show that God is a consuming fire even in a day of grace?

J.T. Quite so, and it is "our God", remember. That is to say, the Christian's God, not merely the God of the Jews.

R.P. If we have to have part in the assembly vitally, we have to be consistent with the God who dwells there.

J.T. Quite so. So in the epistle to the Hebrews already alluded to, it is a question of the Son over God's house, whose house are we. So in the book of Revelation, when the Lord Himself writes to the assemblies, He is seen as the Son of God in relation to Thyatira.

E.N.J. It would be a serious matter to lie to the Holy Spirit.

J.T. Quite so; there are several allusions to that very thing. You will perhaps name them all for us.

E.N.J. I was referring to the third verse: "But Peter said, Ananias, why has Satan filled thy heart that thou shouldest lie to the Holy Spirit ... ?"

J.T. Then there is another allusion in verse 4, "Thou hast not lied to men, but to God". That is to enforce the thing. Then in the ninth verse, "Why is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord?" So that the thought of divine Persons is brought in strikingly in this matter of discipline, and the severity of the action taken, because we are to behold God's goodness, but we have also to think of His severity: that God is severe if He has to be.

P.A.H. It produced a great effect upon all who heard it. That seems to be the effect of this severity and discipline.

J.T. You allude to the eleventh verse, "Great fear came upon all the assembly, and upon all who

heard these things". That is the intent of it, to subdue us and to cause fear, because God is to be feared in all who draw nigh to Him.

P.A.H. That scripture already alluded to as to our God being a consuming fire, also speaks of serving Him with reverence and godly fear.

R.P. There was much at stake. It was the effort on the part of the enemy to set aside what was coming in.

J.T. As we have already remarked, we get things stated at the outset that run down. We have to learn what God is in the severity of judgment against evil. In fact I believe God is calling attention to that, because the book of Revelation is especially intended to stress the thought of judgment, even the lake of fire being mentioned.

P.P. Are you applying this matter specially to the saints?

J.T. Well, it is a question of the saints of course, that Peter is dealing with. Ananias and Sapphira were ostensibly of the assembly, and, of course, the assembly is amenable to the discipline of God. We should there learn what God is in judgment.

Ques. Do you mean that God is very jealous as to His rights in the assembly, and in this matter of associations we should see that God is jealous also?

J.T. Particularly so. Associations mean banding together. They began in Genesis 11, where they banded together and one said to his fellow, "Come on, let us build ourselves a city and a tower, the top of which may reach to the heavens; and let us make ourselves a name, lest we be scattered over the face of the whole earth Genesis 11:4". "The whole earth had one language, and the same words. And it came to pass as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar Genesis 11:1,2". That is the secret of all these combinations, power being vested in the idea of combination. "Let us build ourselves a city (Genesis 11:4)". It is

ourselves . The secret of all these combinations is in that passage.

J.M. Are you bringing before us the importance of what Peter says in verse 9, "Why is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord?"? Is this the introduction of evil into the assembly?

J.T. Yes. Agreeing together. That was the idea at Shinar, to have something great. It is pure selfishness, the thought of exalting themselves.

R.P. Is not the great effort of the enemy at the present time to introduce what is counterfeit? What was so beautiful and glorious at the beginning was the saints moving together, and God being the inheritance of the saints, and love operating among the saints. Is there not a great effort at this time to bring in influence on that line; the idea of security, and universal brotherhood, and the like?

J.T. Quite so. And the word is taken out of its proper setting. The proper setting of the word "together" is in Matthew 18:20, "Where two or three are gathered together unto my name, there am I in the midst of them". That is the precious setting of the matter, leading up to the truth of the assembly, and confirming it; whereas men band together with selfish motives, and with a view to exalting themselves, which reverses everything. Power belongs to God, but this idea that we are dealing with is power vested in men, by themselves, not by those above them, but by themselves.

C.W.A. This works out in Acts 19, where the artisans of Demetrius's trade banded together in a way that is suggestive of the operations of men now for their own purposes, regardless of what God was doing in the assembly, but God's work was going on.

J.T. Yes, it was a question of business.

P.R.P. Would you say that the enemy is sadly

using this to make inroads into the assembly, and to divide the saints?

J.T. Well, this sort of thing would divide the saints and make them selfish and deceitful, and the word is stressed as to lying to divine Persons. There is also mentioned lying to one another, and also agreeing together to lie, which is the point stressed here.

E.N.J. I wondered if it would help us to see how intolerable this matter of unionism is, if we could lay hold of the fact that this is where the Holy Spirit is operating; and in Ezekiel the Lord, in speaking of His house, says, "This is ... the place of the soles of my feet", Ezekiel 43:7. Then in relation to angels which you have brought before us, they are said to be "the holy angels", (Mark 8:38).

J.T. I think we ought to touch on this matter of angels at this reading, because although we have already touched on it, it comes in here in this chapter in verse 19. The angels are to be in our minds. They are great intelligent agencies of God for dealing with matters that we cannot deal with because of our belonging to this dispensation. They belong too, to what is outside the range of the time of man, because they existed before men, and were there, we are told in @Job 38:7, when the foundations of the earth were laid; they then shouted for joy, showing how sympathetic they are with God.

Now this is a great matter, and God has His means of dealing with it. In all these evil wars that have come upon the saints in this dispensation, especially recently, there has been need for great power to deal with the evil, and to rescue the saints out of it; and so I think the Lord would help us as to the place that angels have. So here in verse 19 we have, "an angel of the Lord during the night opened the doors of the prison, and leading them out, said. Go ye and stand and speak in the temple to the people all the

words of this life". Notice that it is "all the words of this life", in order to bring out the importance of that life, the preciousness of it. And the angel is directing the apostles here, "Go ye and stand and speak in the temple to the people all the words of this life". So we can see how much the idea of angels enters into what we are saying.

E.N.J. Would that preserve us from taking up one thought or one line of doctrine, and remaining around it?

J.T. Very good. I believe the Lord has greatly helped the brethren as to how to study the Scriptures, and how to read them, to study them carefully, and spiritually, and to take account of all that has been said. How great the volume of things in the life of Jesus!

C.E.J. Would you say that we should be free to pray in our prayer meetings that God may set the angels in activity in relation to His people?

J.T. It is just as well to bring that up, as to how they are to be brought into our prayers. There are a great many of them, but we are not given many names, so far as I can see only about two; but obviously there are many. If we pray for the Lord's servants, we pray for them by name. We can ask the Lord to send a brother known to us, if He was pleased to do so, if we thought he was suitable to meet any condition in this country; that would be quite in order. But you could not speak of the angels in that way, because we only know the names of two of them. Therefore it is a question of asking God as to a matter; and I verily believe that, as to men in this world, in the recent war and the previous one, God acted through men who were perhaps not converted at all.

E.N.J. This chapter brings forward Gamaliel as one God could use as having influence, and similarly

the queen in Daniel 5, who remembered Daniel and what he had done.

J.T. Quite so; we get that too, in the book of Nehemiah. The feminine side is of great importance because of the influence that woman may exert in all matters; and the sisters among us certainly ought to be ready to speak a word of truth as regards this current evil that we have now before us. We all ought to be ready to speak a word, as we have opportunity, to guide persons, it may be persons we are working with. So we get throughout the Scriptures the influence of women, and Esther is not the least. We have often spoken of her; she asked for fasting. We spoke of it before, but it is well to speak of it again, the idea of fasting, and the importance of fasting. Then again, it does not say that the queen in Nehemiah said anything; she was sitting by, but evidently she had influence, and so we are reminded that we should think of what an influence the sisters may have, as they have opportunity to say what is right, especially about what is current now. Referring again to Gamaliel, he is one of the outstanding agents in this chapter. He comes in at the end, but then there were others also, and we are told too of the influence of the people themselves in favour of the truth.

R.P. Are there two lines seen representatively in Michael and Gabriel? One is a military angel, and the other the priestly angel. Gabriel says he stands before God. Michael contended with the devil for the body of Moses, but brought no accusation. He said, "The Lord rebuke thee (Jude 9)".

J.T. That would mean that Michael had regard for the primary place that Satan had, because evidently he was in God's service at one time, and it is important to bring that in, that we may be respectful as to dignitaries. The agencies we get in this chapter are brought in one after another to help to promote

the matter in hand. It says the captain and the officers feared the people, showing that at times we may be helped by the people. We may not be helped by the leaders of them, but we may be helped by the working man.

P.P. Is there some instruction in the way that this help comes to us? I mean God seems to hold it in reserve until a certain point arrives in the souls of the saints. I was thinking of it in a general way as to Gamaliel, who has been referred to, and then as to the angel coming and releasing them from prison, as to whether God allows the saints to go through pressure, and so bear testimony to Him, and then He comes in in power.

J.T. Quite so. It is well to take the events of the chapter up in the order in which they are mentioned, and how God uses them for the purpose in hand; and so this matter of discipline of the man and his wife. How important it is that husbands and wives should not be in collusion in any matter to promote evil, but that there should be transparency. Also as to any testimony that may have to be rendered, that it may be rendered in a pure unselfish way, because it is a question of the government of God in the assembly, and that ought to be carefully watched for.

P.A.H. It is important to see that discipline is exercised in the assembly, and then following that later in our chapter, how God comes in in an external way through angelic service, but first of all discipline in the assembly is maintained.

J.T. Quite so. Angelic service deserves the most particular attention, because it is the one we began with, and I believe God has followed it up ever since. God reserves the direction of angelic service to Himself, and so you get the angel in the book of Exodus, who was to conduct the people into the land. They were to fear him. He would not tolerate

any evil, but they had to fear him (Exodus 23:20 - 22).

R.P. Should we not look for something of that nature in circumstances today? It says in verse 19, "An angel of the Lord during the night opened the doors of the prison, and leading them out, said, Go ye and stand and speak in the temple to the people all the words of this life". Should we not look for intervention in circumstances under God's hand in relation to the testimony?

J.T. That is just what I was meaning. The angelic side is of prime importance in what we are dealing with, because the service is so near to the ordinary service of the Christian. It is not an angel doing anything in the way of dealing with military matters, but one dealing with the saints who are engaged in the service, and telling them what to do, to go and speak to the people in the temple all the words of this life. That is, it was the Spirit of God speaking to the apostles, through the angel, telling them to go and stand in the temple. It seems to me that the angel is brought into almost the same position as the apostles for the moment.

E.N.J. Their response is very ready. It says, "When they heard it, they entered very early into the temple and taught".

J.T. The apostles themselves heeded the angelic word.

R.McC. Whilst there are myriads of angels, one is sufficient here. Does that give us an insight into the great power that is available?

J.T. There is more to be said on that. One hundred and eighty-five thousand men were slain at one time by one angel in the days of Hezekiah (2 Kings 19:35). That is a very important thing as to the power of an angel, and what is available to us in that sense.

J.P.B. Daniel said, "My God hath sent his angel and hath shut the lions' mouths Daniel 6:22".

J.T. That is one angel. But I think it is well to think of the one hundred, and eighty-five thousand that were slain at one time by one angel.

P.A.H. You are distinguishing between the speaking of the Spirit and angelic service?

J.T. It is distinctly distinguished here. An angel tells them to do it. It says in verse 19, "an angel of the Lord during the night opened the doors of the prison", and so on, and they did exactly as they were told.

P.A.H. And would the speaking be by the Spirit, through the angel?

J.T. Of course, the Spirit of God would be the agent. When you come down to the actual words of the Lord Jesus in His ministry, it would be a matter of the Spirit. At the same time the angel's word is heeded, and acted upon.

J.M. The apostle in Acts 27:23,24, speaking of an angel of God serving him in relation to God's work, says, "An angel of the God, whose I am and whom I serve, stood by me this night, saying, Fear not, Paul".

J.T. If the brethren are free to move a little into chapter 8, we shall see the directions given to Philip. It furnishes a distinction that would be helpful to us. First we are told, in verse 4, "Those then that had been scattered went through the countries announcing the glad tidings of the word. And Philip, going down to a city of Samaria, preached the Christ to them; and the crowds with one accord gave heed to the things spoken by Philip, when they heard him and saw the signs which he wrought Acts 8:4 - 6". Then the angel speaks to Philip saying, "Rise up and go southward on the way which goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza" (Acts 8:26). Then verse 29 shows that Philip increases in importance in his service. We begin with the thought that he went down to Samaria and preached Christ. He is not told to do it, as far

as we see. That would point to the importance of open-air preaching, which is a service any young man can do. He does not ask the brethren to do it, he can do it himself; if he gets a message from God that he can speak to men about, there is no reason why he should not do it, and it will soon become evident whether he has power. So Philip had power, but it is not said he was sent to preach. Then when we get down the chapter, the angel spoke to him first, and then the Spirit spoke to Philip, and said, "Approach and join this chariot (Acts 8:29)". And Philip ran and heard the eunuch reading the prophet Esaias, and said, "Dost thou then know what thou art reading of? And he said, How should I then be able unless some one guide me? (Acts 8:30,31)". So we have now come to real and spiritual work in Philip's case in chapter 8. I thought it well that the brethren might have this before them, because it will greatly help us as to open-air preaching. There is no reason why any young man should not go and preach if he has liberty to do so.

E.N.J. Guiding is a great matter. The Spirit seemed to guide Philip as you were saying, and then Philip is able to guide the eunuch.

J.T. But then Philip went down to Samaria, and preached the Christ, and he had power without being sent.

E.N.J. He was not guided there?

J.T. It was a question of his doing it himself. We hear of persons complaining because they are not invited to preach, but then the streets are open, there is plenty of opportunity to preach if we have anything to say. Philip went down to preach.

R.P. Heaven is taking account of the service, and angelic means seem to come in to further the service. Should we not look for that to make things practical? God undertakes for us providentially in relation to our circumstances.

J.T. You are thinking now of a brother being in business and sent by his firm to a certain part, and he may have an opportunity there to take up the service. That would be a providential matter. The angel really represents that side in the guidance. It is a providential service. Another thing is that the government of God often affords us opportunities of preaching or teaching, and the thing is to be ready when these opportunities open up, that is to say, our business may open up ways of service from time to time, and the thing is to be ready for them.

E.N.J. Would you say, in that connection, that the way in which Joseph prospered wherever he was placed, whether it was in the prison house, or Potiphar's house, or with Pharaoh, is significant?

J.T. That is excellent. Joseph was in the service of God, but Pharaoh's servant forgot Joseph, and he has to remind himself afterwards of his sins. I call attention to it now as regards the providential dealings in the ways of God. How much there may be for us in His service in that sense!

J.P. So that you suggest we should be ready to preach in our conversation, even in travelling?

J.T. Just so. If you are a traveller, for instance, you may have many opportunities, but, of course, the next thing would be to keep pure and holy for the service, to be ready for it in holiness. There is the man who was befriended by Joseph, but he forgot the request that Joseph made to him to remember him when it was well with him. The butler has to remind himself of his sins later on.

E.N.J. Were you thinking we might, if we looked back, find we had been remiss in the confession of the Lord's name in the places in which we have found ourselves?

J.T. Quite so, and even schoolchildren may be reminded of this. They say they have confessed the Lord, but it is not enough to do so to their father or

mother. The children are to confess before their schoolmates, or better still, their teachers.

R.P. It would help immensely in taking up the path of responsibility.

J.P. The more we confess the name of the Lord, the more power we have in that way.

J.T. Well, that is where the power is, where we confess. The reproach of Christ is regarded as greater riches than the treasures of Egypt. That is where the testimony lies, in reproach. You are not ashamed to confess Him.

J.M. There had been great failure on the part of the butler, but he confesses the help he had had from Joseph in the presence of Pharaoh, and he said, "I do remember my faults this day (Genesis 41:9)".

J.T. I was speaking about that. He had to recall his own sins to say something to Pharaoh. That is how he had to make his confession, but he should have made it before; he did not remember Joseph.

P.P. Referring again to open-air preaching, what qualifications would you say are required? You referred to Philip as not being sent, but would he have some qualifications?

J.T. He certainly did, because what he said the Spirit of God commends, and it was resultful; but at the same time he was not directed by the Spirit at first. Firstly he went by himself, then as directed by an angel, and then by the Spirit. He progressed as he went on.

P.P. Is it affection for Christ?

J.T. Well, quite so, it would be that, but there is more than that. You ought to be able to speak coherently, up to a point: "If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God (1 Peter 4:11)". That is to say, what power of speech have you? Can the Spirit of God use it? Has it proved itself to be telling in the testimony?

P.P. You have spoken of the danger of just being a volunteer without having a message.

J.T. I think there is that danger too.

J.M. Paul says in Romans, "For God ... whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son Romans 1:9".

E.N.J. Would it be appropriate at this moment to ask for a little more as to Gamaliel? You have spoken about the people and their being instrumental to help the position, and then the angels' place, and then what God has in a man like Gamaliel.

J.T. Well, I think Gamaliel is an outstanding agent here. He is not a Sadducee. The Sadducees were infidels, who had no regard for God at all, no regard for the Scriptures; but Gamaliel is not like that; he is a man such as Paul. I believe God had respect for Paul as a man, because, even although he was a Pharisee, he was a man who believed the Scriptures and believed in angels. He was an orthodox person. God is more likely to take up a man like that than a Sadducee, an infidel, who is more likely to be a leader in what is false, such as we are dealing with now. Gamaliel is the man whom God takes up; he is not made much of, but there is more in him in a way than in others, because he knows the truth so far.

E.N.J. He would not represent a brother in fellowship, but he would be one who has some work of God in his soul, perhaps, and he finds himself near to the powers that be, and makes his presence felt as, for instance, Pilate's wife did.

J.T. Very good. I think that is very true. Gamaliel is here in a similar way, and he is taken up by God because he recognises the Scriptures. But if a man comes forward who holds infidel beliefs, I would be afraid of him at all times, and we know such as those that the enemy is working in at the present time politically. I believe the enemy is working through Russia at the present time. Then

there is this trade unionism, which would be a similar thing, an agency of the enemy against the truth, just as Russia is in another sense.

R.P. Do you not think that the governments in these countries are in some ways alive to these elements?

J.T. I marvel at what has come about in the United States of America, what a change has come over that country. I believe it is all the government of God. There is such a change as to certain principles that it used to ridicule, and we are to be on the look-out for these things, so as to be ready for any change that may come in, for we do not know what may happen in view of the political situation abroad.

E.N.J. All this should stir us up, after hearing what the Lord has brought before us, in regard to our prayer meetings, availing ourselves of the mighty power of the angels to come in for us in Australia and New Zealand.

J.T. I marvel that this thing has acquired such power in these countries, because it has not the same power in the United States, and I think the change is in God's ordering.

E.N.J. Perhaps we have to humble ourselves as we find ourselves in the position of the butler, that we have been remiss as to this.

J.T. Quite so, we have to recall our sins.

Rem. The angel told them what to speak, all the words of this life; and they went out and taught, and then there are various other allusions to teaching, and finally at the end of the chapter they are found teaching.

J.T. Well, you would understand the apostles would not wait on the angel to guide them as to the subjects of their ministry, because he is just an angel, whereas the Spirit of God is here in regard to the testimony, and the ministry, and the preaching of the gospel, and the servant ought to be looking to the

Spirit of God for that sort of thing, that is to say, for the actual scriptures he takes up, and the subjects he takes up.

R.P. That is seen in verse 32, "we are his witnesses of these things, and the Holy Spirit also, which God has given to those that obey him".

J.T. They are accredited witnesses of God. Gamaliel is not that, nor is anybody else of that kind, but still God in His governmental ways may take up Gamaliel, as He does here, and turns the whole matter; but the actual power for ministry is the Spirit of God, and the agents of it were the apostles, at this particular time; others were added, of course, later.

E.N.J. Gamaliel has a sense that you cannot overthrow any matter that proceeds from God, and if there is a member of Parliament, or a man in power or authority in the land who has that sense, he will be used of God to help the saints in the testimony.

J.T. I think that fully. I have seen some remarkable quotations from members of Parliament in this country. One of them was that every liberty we have is due to conscience. There are so many brethren in fellowship here that one marvels we do not hear more of what they are saying about this very question.

C.E.J. Do you think it is because there is not sufficient witness, and that would involve what you have been suggesting to us as to open-air speaking? "We are his witnesses of these things".

J.T. There are not sufficient persons who are obviously witnesses. That only stresses what we are saying; the importance of what we say in ordinary business life, whether we are conveying light to persons we have to deal with.

J.P. In Daniel, Nebuchadnezzar was brought to know that God ruled over the kingdom of men.

J.T. That is good.

J.P. He may have had a Gamaliel, as you say.

J.T. Just so. At the same time we would be very cautious about giving out things said by others if they are not characteristically witnesses. I would be very concerned, for instance, in making up a hymn book, as to taking on the hymns of persons who are not in fellowship. We would be cautious of anything of that kind, printing or publishing in relation to the truth anything that men who are not characteristically moved by the Spirit might say. Even though the things said may be right, we are afraid of the source of them.

DIVINE ACTIVITIES IN SUPPORT OF THE TESTIMONY (4)

Acts 6:1 - 15; Acts 7:51 - 60

J.T. It is thought that we should note that in the book of Acts the truth was dealt with, and as any difficulty arose, such as we see here in chapter 6, it was met by the wisdom which was there in the Spirit, but particularly in the apostles; the apostles are in mind throughout as the leaders of the whole position, and hence it is said in chapter 2 that the converts, through Peter's preaching, "persevered in the teaching and fellowship of the apostles, in breaking of bread and prayers Acts 2:42". So that the dispensation is marked off in this way as under the guidance and leadership of the apostles, the blessed Spirit of God being there with them; chapter 2 brought out that fact. So that what is before us now is this question of deaconship, according to the facts presented.

It says, "In those days the disciples multiplying in number, there arose a murmuring of the Hellenists against the Hebrews because their widows were overlooked in the daily ministration". That was the problem that now faced the saints, and immediately we are told, "the twelve, having called the multitude of the disciples to them, said, It is not right that we, leaving the word of God, should serve tables. Look out therefore, brethren, from among yourselves seven men, well reported of, full of the Holy Spirit and wisdom, whom we will establish over this business: but we will give ourselves up to prayer and the ministry of the word". So that we have here what has been intimated, that the apostles are, under the Lord, under the Spirit, in complete charge: and it is apparent that they are definitely imbued with wisdom to meet this serious difficulty that had

arisen. It was really a sectional matter, such as often comes up amongst us. It was sectional in the sense that the Hellenists, who were Greeks, were affected against the Hebrews.

P.A.H. What does that really suggest to us? Is it national feeling there?

J.T. Yes, and it is a common thing which has often arisen amongst brethren since Pentecost. But it may be linked on with what has been engaging us, which is not exactly national, but an industrial matter, which has brought about a combination of men of all kinds, and all nations and religions, in order to better themselves through that combination, disregarding whether divine principles are involved or not; so that we are therefore in the presence of a most serious matter, and one that deserves the full understanding that God has given to us, so that we may do His will, and not man's.

E.N.J. Do you link this matter of combining together with those in Genesis 11:4, who said "Come on, let us build ourselves a city and a tower, the top of which may reach to the heavens"?

J.T. It is the beginning of all combinations of men arrayed against God, because that is what really developed; but it was to make a name for themselves. That is really the secret of all these combinations that we are dealing with. It is a question of human aspiration to a name. "Let us make ourselves a name, lest we be scattered over the face of the whole earth (Genesis 11:4)". But then God met that by scattering them, so that the whole human race was scattered, and God can do that again. That is to say He can act against all such combinations, with a view to the deliverance and preservation of His people, and of the truth. Then we have verse 9, which is in view of what has been established by the apostles; that is, the seven deacons. "There arose up certain of those of the synagogue called of freedmen, and of

Cyrenians, and of Alexandrians, and of those of Cilicia and Asia, disputing with Stephen". So that they have a man now, representative of God, but thoroughly qualified, as filled with the Holy Spirit, to attack. That is, there is a point of attack in this man Stephen, who was the first one mentioned of the seven.

P.A.H. This really suggests to us the way a difficulty can be met: "Stephen, full of grace and power". Is it that?

J.T. Well, that is the point for us today. It is a question of wisdom, the wisdom which God is ready to give us in this crisis. It is said, "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not", (James 1:5). James always has a word of wisdom for us. So it is a question of the brethren understanding what is the point of attack of the enemy, and what God is putting forward, and how the enemy is attacking it, and how that attack is to be met; and I thinly we have an example in Stephen, and including, of course, the others of the seven. We have examples in them to go by.

R.P. Do you suggest that wisdom is a quality which comes to light when the exercise arises?

J.T. Yes, it is a quality of God. In earlier days we were accustomed to regard wisdom as a person, the Person of Christ really, but it is to be regarded as a quality, for that is how the book of Proverbs treats it. But then we have in the New Testament that Christ is the wisdom of God, and the Spirit of God is here on those lines; and hence the wisdom that Stephen has, as we see here in verse 8. "Stephen, full of grace and power, wrought wonders and great signs among the people".

C.W.A. Is this consequent on his being full of the Holy Spirit?

J.T. Well, that is just what is said in verse 3,

"Look out therefore, brethren, from among yourselves seven men, well reported, of, full of the Holy Spirit and wisdom, whom we will establish over this business". "Full of the Holy Spirit and wisdom" is the point stressed.

P.R.P. Have you something more in mind as to this matter of the Hellenists and the Hebrews, as being features amongst the saints? I mean it is not a worldly feature so much, but it is among the saints.

J.T. Just so, it is what had arisen amongst the saints. It is really the first attack, although Ananias and Sapphira came before, in chapter 5; but this is more specious, because it is a question of a sectional feeling; that is to say the Hellenists on the one hand, and the Hebrews on the other.

P.R.P. I was wondering if you had something more in mind as to this, as to the judgment of the evil associations of men outside. We need to be careful that we do not allow anything of that character inside.

J.T. And, of course, it was not allowed, because in the first attack Ananias and Sapphira died, but it does not say that Peter slew them. He did not; it was a question of God intervening; that was the end of that attack. But now we have these Hellenists, or Greeks, and Hebrews. That is to say it is somewhat more national. Of course, that is the thing to watch. Then on the other hand we have the combination in verse 9, "there arose up certain of those of the synagogue called of freedmen, and of Cyrenians, and of Alexandrians, and of those of Cilicia and Asia, disputing with Stephen". There we have a combination of men. Whatever they may have been, their names are given here, but they are not as those who were among the saints, such as Ananias and Sapphira were, because they were nominally Christians, but these are not.

E.N.J. Those beautiful conditions that we were looking at previously in the fourth chapter, when "the heart and soul of the multitude of those that had believed were one, and not one said that anything of what he possessed was his own, but all things were common to them", Acts 4:32 were the conditions that the enemy sought to attack.

J.T. Quite so; it was really a continuation of what is seen in chapter 2, when the Spirit of God came in freshly.

R.P. The enemy is relentless, and his attack is against the testimony, either against Christ personally, or Christ in the saints.

J.T. Yes, and we need not expect any change in that. Indeed we can expect more, because it is getting near to the end of the dispensation.

J.M. Would this be an example of what we saw earlier, that they persevered in the teaching and fellowship of the apostles, in breaking of bread and prayers?

J.T. Well, it is a continuation of it, showing that the work of God was still continuing, until it was hindered through what is mentioned, the feeling of the Hellenists against the Hebrews, because their widows were overlooked in the daily ministration. There may have been some error on the part of the Hebrews in the matter, but apparently it was overcome.

W.B. It says, "Look out therefore, brethren, from among yourselves". Does the solution lie with ourselves; love would find the answer to the difficulty?

J.T. It is a question of love among ourselves; that is the point. The Lord said, "By this shall all know that ye are disciples of mine, if ye have love amongst yourselves", (John 13:35). It is a question of what is amongst ourselves.

J.A.A. It is a good thing for us to take account of

spiritual brethren among us, and seek wisdom from those going on with what is spiritual?

J.T. Quite so. Then you see the happy outlook and feeling in the third verse. "Look out therefore, brethren, from among yourselves seven men, well reported of, full of the Holy Spirit and wisdom, whom we will establish over this business". That is to say the apostles have authority to say, "we will establish". That is a point to be before us, the idea of the establishment of what is right in the business to be attended to, whatever is to be looked after, there are those ready to do it; and that is what the apostles have in mind here, that these seven men should be full of the Holy Spirit, and thus qualified to take on this business, as it is called.

R.P. There is no succession of the apostles today, but if there is service to be rendered, the power lies in the Holy Spirit.

J.T. Exactly, and then in the saints themselves. The Spirit being here, the saints are indwelt by the Spirit as they were then, but we have not such an exhibition of power as there was then. Still the Spirit is here, and the saints are here, and God is here.

P.A.H. There would not be any difficulty in relation to the selection of these seven men. The multitude of the disciples would select them, and as love would be there, there would not be any element of rivalry in the selection, would there?

J.T. Although it has been remarked recently as to the large number of brethren in Australia, especially in Sydney and Melbourne, yet there are nothing like the numbers they had here. They began with three thousand, and then we have in chapter 4, five thousand, and then further a greater number than that; so we are now in this scripture in the presence of a great number of persons, perhaps five to ten thousand, and therefore there was a greater problem than even our brethren have in Sydney or Melbourne

or London. We may as well accept that, that we are in a day of small things.

J.P. Would you say that there are always those among the saints whom God would use to help in regard to every difficult question that may arise?

J.T. Well, God is determined that there should be no chaotic condition as there was at the beginning of the creation. There was a state of chaos which God had to face, according to Genesis 1, but now we are in the presence of the Spirit of God come down, and a large number being converted by Him, and we can see that God would be determined to maintain order. So we have these seven men; the number is to be noted; it links on with the Old Testament. As to our brethren in care meetings and the like, it is not a question of the number seven, but it is a question of spiritual power; that is the point.

J.P. So that the apostles did not leave their work, but others are brought in. The apostles carry on with prayer and ministry.

J.T. Quite so, things are set in order, and persons are to be known; we are to know each other, and when a crisis arises, we know who is fit to face the matter, where love is operating.

J.A.A. Is that why these men are named? Each one is named definitely as known, and able to take things up in faithfulness.

J.T. Just so. It suggests to us that we should know each other, and I believe it is quite right for each of us to have a judgment of the others; not to be critical, but at the same time to have a clear judgment of who there is amongst us, who is likely to be helpful.

E.N.J. And it is a good service to know how to bring such forward. There is something to be done, and things are not revolving round one, or two, or three.

J.T. Quite so. It has been suggested that in

certain places persons are named who are to be in the lead. Well, it is a question of what each local company may have, because the idea of local companies is indicated in the first epistle to the Corinthians. That is to say, "the assembly of God which is in Corinth", 1 Corinthians 1:2 and "with all that in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both theirs and ours", so that we have to know each other. In Corinth, or in whatever other place it may be, we have to know the persons, and when a crisis arises we know who is who, and who can do things that may be required. So we do not appoint leaders formally now to lead the brethren. It is a question of what each brother has, and the Spirit of God being always here ready to help whatever is of God.

R.P. A principle is to be seen in bringing them before the apostles.

J.T. Just so, that is the point we get here; they apparently knew each other, because it says, "Look out therefore, brethren, from among yourselves seven men, well reported of, full of the Holy Spirit and wisdom, whom we will establish over this business: but we will give ourselves up to prayer and the ministry of the word". And then it says, "The saying pleased the whole multitude: and they chose Stephen", and so on. We have the seven men named, and Stephen is put forward at once as having peculiar qualities for the crisis to be met.

C.McC. Is that why Stephen is attacked in a special way, as one specially approved of God?

J.T. Well, the devil is in verse 9, whereas God was in the earlier verses, and Stephen is put forward because he is specially qualified.

R.G.W. Do we get the superiority of our resources, and the poverty of the enemy's resources here?

J.T. How beautiful! The Spirit of God brings out what Stephen was, and how it justifies the saying in 1 Timothy 3:13, as to deacons. It says, verse 10,

"they were not able to resist the wisdom and the Spirit with which he spoke"; and then it is said, "They set false witnesses, saying, This man does not cease speaking words against the holy place and the law; for we have heard him saying, This Jesus the Nazaraean shall destroy this place, and change the customs which Moses taught us. And all who sat in the council, looking fixedly on him, saw his face as the face of an angel". What a wonderful testimony is immediately brought in, corroborating what we have had elsewhere -- the place that angels have in this dispensation. Why do we not count on them more? This man has a face like an angel.

E.N.J. What would you say as to that; what is the outstanding feature of the face of an angel?

J.T. Well, I would say it was heavenly.

E.N.J. The Lord says that in heaven angels always behold the face of His Father.

J.T. There the angels behold His face as representative of the children, showing that the idea of the angels' service is representative. This matter of children is very important. Children are so signalised that their angels behold the face of the Father. It is a question of angelic representation.

P.A.H. So that Stephen really stands in that place here, as representative of heaven.

J.T. Well, I would think that. It is very remarkable that he should come in so soon, and then that he should be honoured so quickly. He had great ability to bring out the truth, not simply to do deacon's work, but to bring out the whole truth from the outset to the end. And how he dies! Such a testimony to the Spirit of Christ!

J.McN. Is this stated to encourage us to avail ourselves of the same power of the Holy Spirit in order to stand in the broken day in which we live in the same power as Stephen did?

J.T. Well, I think so. It is a question of what

God has raised up. Of course, the Holy Spirit is not raised up; He has come down from heaven, sent down in fact, and always here; He remains here till the end of the dispensation. But then there are men too, whom God has raised up and sent out, and they are to be models for us. So we have a great cloud of witnesses according to Hebrews 12. They are all around us, as it were, persons who have been faithful to the truth from the very outset, and it is for us to notice what they have done, because we are now occupying the ground; they are not here, but we are, and it is a question of taking up the position and serving in it faithfully as they did.

D.H.B. In verse 5 it says also that Stephen was full of faith. Would that help us?

J.T. Showing that he was a real man in the sense of personal faith in God, because if we have not faith we are nothing.

R.P. Is that why it refers in the great preaching in the next chapter to the family of faith?

J.T. Quite so; it may be profitable to compare that with what the writer to the Hebrews says in chapter 11.

C.McC. Is there something to learn from the fact that Stephen's testimony is irresistible before worldly men? It was worldly men who saw his face as the face of an angel. They had to take account of that.

J.T. Just so. It was all who sat in the council who are specially noted; not the Lord's people, not Christians, but those who were in the council in Jerusalem.

E.N.J. Would this all help us, in view of the fact that some may be called on before long to testify in the presence of worldly men, as to how we feel about this question of associations? One was thinking of formation with Stephen, and unless there is formation with us the testimony will be weak.

J.T. I do not know of anything more profitable

for us as to this point that we are now looking at than the war of 1914 - 1918. How the so-called non-combatants were treated, and how they suffered, and how patient they were in simply saying that they could not take human life; I think they were models. And then in the next war, 1939 - 1945, both in Great Britain, here, and America, the same thing came to light, only the authorities were more lenient and more respectful, seeing that there was something in the Christians; that is to say, those who say they cannot take human life. They cannot become the instruments of taking human life, and God is honouring that.

R.P. In a crisis of the testimony, do we want to understand where we are and where the assembly is in its history? Paul wrote to the Thessalonians that they were not to be soon shaken in mind, and referred to a day of evil yet to come. Are we to understand the evil that is present in the passage of the testimony?

J.T. It is a question therefore of beginning with what we have here, that is the book of Acts, and then our own times, or the last one hundred and fifty years, or thereabouts: what God has been doing, and that one after another has been here to witness in the service of Christ, and they have been taken to be with the Lord; and now we are here, and it is a question of what we are doing, and whether we are taking example from those who have gone before. Hence in the book of Hebrews we have again an exhortation to remember our leaders, and then to obey our leaders; this would mean that those whom God is using and putting forward amongst us are to be models for the others, and as such they are to be considered. They are to be followed, as it were, so that we may have a continuance of ability in the testimony that is needed for the teaching of the saints.

E.N.J. I think you inferred earlier that Stephen

would, be a sample of a Christian. Would, this indictment have any part in present testimony?

J.T. Well, it is a remarkable thing. I think it is one of the most remarkable portions of Scripture we have; it is Stephen's testimony running right through chapter 7. He addresses them there: "Brethren and fathers, hearken. The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Charran, and said to him, Go out of thy land and out of thy kindred, and come into the land which I will shew thee", Acts 7:2,3 and so forth, and he continues down until we come to the verses we read, where he says, "But the Most High dwells not in places made with hands; as says the prophet, The heaven is my throne and the earth the footstool of my feet: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord, or where is the place of my rest? has not my hand made all these things?" Acts 7:48 - 50 And then the terrible indictment in the words, "O stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers, ye also", and so forth. So that we have here a perfect testimony on God's part, and an indictment, too, of the Jews, as to the way they had murdered Christ. It is just an indictment by the actual facts of the history of the testimony from the beginning to the end, up to that time.

E.N.J. Would one able to speak clearly of the great events of the last one hundred and fifty years be a parallel to what Stephen had to say?

J.T. Very good, because God raised up remarkable men during those years, some of them within our own times, serving the Lord, and God helping them; and it is for us now, the younger men of us, to use what was in them and to follow their example.

R.P. The life of Stephen, possible a comparatively young man, was remarkable, was it not?

J.T. It is remarkable what a short time Stephen

had, and how much entered into it. It is marvellous that so much should enter into one man's testimony.

J.P. He begins right from the very beginning with Abraham. He covers the whole of the testimony from Abraham to the time then present.

J.T. Just so. Our attention is called to what God is, and what His testimony is, that it is one testimony.

J.P. And he follows the truth of the Scriptures all the way through.

J.M. Would verse 55 suggest that the position seen in Stephen corresponds with heaven? It says, "But being full of the Holy Spirit, having fixed his eyes on heaven, he saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God".

J.T. Showing that Jesus had gone the whole way, the faithful and true Witness. That is really what is in mind.

J.M. And does it mean that the same thought is continued now in Stephen? He holds the position on earth corresponding with what was seen in heaven.

J.T. Paul calls him "thy martyr Stephen", Acts 22:20. Stephen is honoured thus by Paul himself.

C.P. Stephen charges them with being uncircumcised in heart and ears. Would that indicate that Stephen himself was in correspondence with the death of Christ?

J.T. Circumcised in the spiritual meaning of it. Would you enlarge on that, as to what is in your mind?

C.P. Stephen in charging them with being uncircumcised was one that had thoroughly judged himself before God, and hence was full of the Holy Spirit and wisdom.

J.T. Quite so; hence the word of Paul, "we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God,

and boast in Christ Jesus, and do not trust in flesh", (Philippians 3:3). Such was Stephen.

W.B. Do these "freedmen" that are spoken of represent an element which is abroad in the world today, which would seek to be vehement in their judgment of what is of God?

J.T. I think we have already alluded to what we are dealing with here in Australia, and we do not want to be personal at all, but this character of men is seen all round us, and we have them named here in the chapter we read. In verse 9 it was a question of the synagogue. The Lord uses the word synagogue too, in the book of Revelation, and He calls it the synagogue of Satan. I do not think we should call these men the synagogue of Satan, but it is remarkable the similarity between this and what we have in the book of Revelation named by the Lord. So it says "there arose up certain of those of the synagogue called of freedmen, and of Cyrenians, and of Alexandrians, and of those of Cilicia and Asia, disputing with Stephen". They are banded together and the names indicate whence they come, and they are disputing with Stephen, who is God's witness. Stephen is in the front now; the apostles are not so much in evidence; it is a question of Stephen, whom God puts forward in His testimony.

A.M. Why do you think Peter's testimony is so different to Stephen's? He says, "I know that ye did it in ignorance, as also your rulers" (Acts 3:17), whereas here Stephen is most definite and severe in his indictment of them.

J.T. It is just a question of where the Jews were. Whether they are treated as murderers, or whether they are treated as innocent, doing a thing ignorantly and in unbelief; and I believe the point is that this chapter is now indicting the Jews for their wickedness in murdering Christ, whereas in the third chapter they are viewed as having done the thing ignorantly

and in unbelief. The idea of the city of refuge is opened up in the third chapter, but not so in this chapter. There is no refuge for the Jews now; they are exposed.

A.M. Do you think we should be able to discern the change in the attitude of men? The apostasy coming in fast, our attitude is to be different from what it might have been in earlier days?

J.T. I would think so. Take the Reformation; I should not think that the Spirit of God would specially stress the apostasy at the time of the Reformation, because it was a peculiar time. God was opening up things and was favourable to men notwithstanding the history of Christendom, but now we have come to another time and things have changed. Wickedness and bad doctrine of every description are current and openly avowed, so that the time has come for God to bring forward the book of Revelation. The book of Revelation is a very late part of the Scripture, and it is intended to be a weapon for the ministry as to current conditions and the judgment that is coming, so that men might fear, and that the saints who are now walking in the truth might be confirmed. The wickedness that is to be dealt with presently, as the book of Revelation shows, is awful, so that the beast and the false prophet, who represent moral wickedness, are cast alive into the lake of fire. It is all to bring home to us at the present time what wickedness there is, and how God is going to deal with it.

J.A.A. Why does Stephen refer to the Lord as the Son of man, in verse 56? "I behold the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing at the right hand of God".

J.T. I think because he is moving away from the Jews. It is a question now of men, not the Jews especially. When the preaching began, it was the Jews first, but it is not that now. I think that is

what is meant; the Lord has taken the place of the Son of man.

J.A.A. While Stephen is in power in relation to the judgment of God, is he still manifesting the dispensation of grace? He was full of grace and power, the Spirit of God says. In relation to the Son of man, grace is still coming out to others; so Stephen maintains the dispensation.

J.T. Yes, I think it is important to see that the attitude of the Spirit of God has changed here; that is to say, the Jews are no longer in mind as at first. It is a question of the Son of man standing at the right hand of God, having in view the whole of humanity, instead of the Jews, so Paul agreed with that in saying later, "We turn to the Gentiles (Acts 13:46)". The time had come for that in the closing chapters of the book of Acts.

Ques. Is it a question of God's rights here? Stephen saw the Son of man standing. The standing is significant.

J.T. Mark says that the Lord Jesus "sat at the right hand of God Mark 16:19". That is a feature of permanency; He has taken up a position at the right hand of God, sitting there, He has title to that. But here He is standing. The Lord is ready to take that attitude, to stand at the right hand of God, ready to serve the gentiles. And we have come into it. We have come into this gracious attitude of the Lord standing at the right hand of God.

J.M. Is there something akin in Revelation when He says, "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock"? Revelation 3:20

J.T. Quite so. The Lord is ready to come in, if anyone opens to Him, but you do not get that thought here. It is the general position of mankind here, and the Son of man ready to act because He is the Son of man. It is a question of His relations with men. "There is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus", 1 Timothy 2:5. That

is the position. The Jews have no longer a claim to God. He has now turned to the gentiles, and we are in that, so we ought to glory in it. The epistle to the Romans shows that the gentiles' time will come too, when they will be dealt with, and so the writer, in chapter 11, urges the gentiles to fear, lest the judgment come upon them. God is going to return to the Jews, although He has abandoned them at present, but He will return to His ancient people because of the fathers. He loves them for the fathers' sakes, and will return to them, but He is not doing it yet.

E.N.J. In verse 57 it says, "And they cried out with a loud voice, and held their ears, and rushed upon him with one accord". Is that condition developing rapidly now in Christendom?

J.T. It seems so. How the servants of God are being threatened!

E.N.J. Holding their ears would indicate that they did not want to hear the testimony.

J.T. Then the solemn thing is that our own apostle Paul is seen keeping the clothes of those who stoned Stephen. A most solemn thing! But he was converted nevertheless, so that he says he was shown mercy "for a delineation of those about to believe on him to life eternal", (1 Timothy 1:16).

DIVINE ACTIVITIES IN SUPPORT OF THE TESTIMONY (5)

Acts 8:1 - 40

J.T. The Spirit of God seems in this section to have in mind to stress how the work of God continues in spite of difficulties, the opposition being particularly stressed, and firstly the attack on Stephen, his death and martyrdom. Paul says, "thy martyr Stephen", (Acts 22:20). Now the work is proceeding. Stephen was the leading one among the deacons chosen by the disciples and confirmed by the apostles, and now another one, Philip, is purchasing to himself a "good degree, and great boldness in the faith", (1 Timothy 3:13). But another thing intended to affect us in view of the current exercises of the brethren, is the appearance of Saul of Tarsus, and his persistent violence in attacking the assembly and those who formed it.

E.N.J. Would this suggest that even those who have been instruments of the enemy might be blessed, if our exercises are taken up definitely?

J.T. That Saul should be blessed at this juncture is very striking, and shows the persistence of heaven in pursuing the dispensation, and maintaining it in its full height, the conversion of Saul being a striking illustration of it, as the Lord said of him, "This man is an elect vessel to me (Acts 9:15)". The Lord had selected him. The apostles had appointed the deacons, but Paul, or Saul, was not amongst them. He was in the hands of the enemy still; he says in writing to Timothy that he was an insolent overbearing man, but "mercy was shewn me ... for a delineation of those about to believe on him to life eternal", 1 Timothy 1:16. So that I think we have good ground to be encouraged at this time in regard to what is current

among the saints here as to the enemy's work, and that something may be secured for us, to meet this long enduring trial of unionism, extending actually as far as I can understand for at least ten years; so that it is a question of the saints getting to God about it, and He will do something.

The references to Saul are striking, because first it says, "Saul was consenting to his being killed", and then the Spirit returns to him again in verse 3, "Saul ravaged the assembly, entering into the houses one after another, and dragging off both men and woman delivered them up to prison". So that the violence of the devil is seemingly aroused, and it is a question now of our being faithful and holding fast.

P.A.H. In spite of this terrible opposition, there is an increase in testimony.

J.T. That is what we see, and it is not in specially appointed vessels, but as it says in verse 4, "Those then that had been scattered went through the countries announcing the glad tidings of the word". That is to say, it is simply scattered persons; and then another deacon is taken up specially in the service of the gospel.

P.A.H. We are told in chapter 6 that "the word of God increased", Acts 6:7 after the murmuring was met.

P.R.P. Have you any thought as to why the Lord allowed Saul to go so far before striking him down with light from heaven?

J.T. I suppose the Lord would strengthen the whole position of those engaged in the service. The facts relative to Saul are enlarged on in the next chapter, and I believe the presentation of the facts is to encourage us. It is said after Saul's conversion in chapter 9:31, "The assemblies then throughout the whole of Judaea and Galilee and Samaria had peace, being edified and walking in the fear of the Lord, and were increased through the comfort of

the Holy Spirit Acts 9:31". The Lord came in, specially taking up Saul of Tarsus, and thus encouraging the saints generally, that the work should proceed, and that there should be comfort, and to stay the hand of the devil at this juncture -- as we get in the Old Testament, "the land had rest forty years", (Judges 3:11) and so forth. Certain periods are characterised by rest.

J.M. Would Saul then be the chief instrument in the hand of the enemy at this juncture?

J.T. Well, the facts are thus presented; but then the Lord is showing that He is greater, showing what He can do for us.

J.A.A. Saul was a very religious man. How does that apply to our present situation?

J.T. It is a matter of public influences. As regards the position in the British Isles, in the House of Commons there are, it is said, a considerable number of so-called lay preachers, which is remarkable, as they are not the kind of people you might expect God to select for the government of the land; they are working people, but yet they have a religious character; but we cannot trust such evidence of religious zeal. Paul is a sample of a religious zealot; his zeal is notable. "As to zeal, persecuting the assembly", (Philippians 3:6) which was a mere matter of zeal with nothing behind it of God at all, in spite of his religion.

E.N.J. Would it be right to say that Paul's exercises commenced as he witnessed the sufferings of Stephen? I thought we might see in this, that if we suffer there will be fruit.

J.T. I have no doubt the Lord intended to give signal evidence of His continuing care for the assembly. It had come to a crisis, and Saul was set for the destruction of it, and he intended to ravage and destroy it; as he says himself, he persecuted the assembly. So I think we should be encouraged that the Lord is looking at the matter, and perhaps something is going to come out of it, and it is a question

of the state we are in whether He can take us on and use us. Scattered persons are mentioned here, and we read of them later at Antioch and elsewhere (chapter 11:19); and that is the point to be before our minds, to see what God is doing. Then He takes Saul, a special instrument, actually out of the hands of the devil, and uses him as no other man was ever used in the service of God.

R.McC. God meets this impossible situation in a wonderful way.

J.T. That is what I have before me. The Lord loves to come in for us, and signalises certain circumstances by coming in manifestly by Himself, as it were, on our behalf. He says of Saul, "This man is an elect vessel to me (Acts 9:15)". The Lord allowed Saul to go as far as Damascus; that is, altogether outside his proper sphere, Jerusalem, where he had been brought up at the feet of Gamaliel, and to come into the sphere of the gentiles, before He takes him up.

P.A.H. The assembly was precious to the Lord then, when He said to Saul, "Why persecutest thou me? (Acts 9:4)" and it is just as precious to the Lord now.

J.T. The assembly was perhaps never more precious to the Lord than it is at the present moment. Not indeed that it was not precious at the beginning, but the peculiar revival of the truth, extending on to our own times, is an indication, I believe, of how precious the assembly is to Him, and how insistent He is in taking care of it and bringing it through to the end.

W.J.B. When difficulties arise, is there a tendency for us to resort to human reasoning to find an answer to the difficulty? I was thinking of the earlier part of Acts, where they cry to the Lord, "Behold their threatenings (Acts 4:29)". Do we need to be preserved from human reasonings in finding solutions to difficulties?

J.T. I would say that. You refer to chapter 4. The threatenings were "in this city", the very city

they were in; that is, where we are now for instance. What is current ought to show what God can do for us in the midst of it. There are several references in the Scriptures, especially in Acts, to this city where the Lord was crucified, where the worst evil that was ever perpetrated was committed, it was Jerusalem. Jerusalem was the sphere of persecution against the people of God.

C.McC. Do these scattered persons show the right spirit by continuing to preach, even though under persecution? They are not deterred by it or cast down.

J.T. That is very good, and we should be encouraged by their example. So it says, "Those then that had been scattered went through the countries announcing the glad tidings of the word. And Philip, going down to a city of Samaria, preached the Christ to them; and the crowds with one accord gave heed to the things spoken by Philip, when they heard him and saw the signs which he wrought". We have to remember that Philip was a deacon appointed by the twelve, but now he is purchasing to himself "a good degree, and great boldness in the faith (1 Timothy 3:13)". The apostles did not give him that, he purchased it to himself. So that it is a question of what is within us, as it is said of David, "David strengthened himself in Jehovah his God", (1 Samuel 30:6). It was something in himself.

E.N.J. Are you referring to the fact that there was that which they could see in Philip?

J.T. Yes; there it was. He was not sent to preach the gospel. He was a deacon, but he purchased to himself a good degree and great boldness in the faith, showing what is within the range of any of us. Then we have another difficulty arising here, an that is in verse 9. "A certain man, by name Simon, had been before in the city, using magic arts, and astonishing the nation of Samaria, saying that

himself was some great one. To whom they had all given heed, from small to great, saying, This is the power of God which is called great. And they gave heed to him, because that for a long time he had astonished them by his magic arts". So that now we have another element to overcome at this point in this man who has magic arts, the work of the devil directly, and human pride attached to it.

J.S.P. Is this something that is more subtle than persecution?

J.T. Well, I think it is. It is a peculiar kind of opposition. Then another thing comes in at this point. There were many converts through Philip, but they did not receive the Holy Spirit. That is a sort of defect in the service, so in this connection Peter and John are sent down from Jerusalem. At that time Jerusalem was the centre of God's work, and the apostles were there; they had not been scattered, so they send Peter and John to meet the apparent defect of Philip, which might have upset Philip's work and turned him aside. In this we see the remarkable evidence of God's persistent continuance in carrying on His work against all efforts of the devil.

J.M. Is there a lack of completeness seen in Philip's work, so that what was needed was the coming in of the Holy Spirit as the seal of the work?

J.T. Well, God has certain sovereign rights, and we cannot assume that He must do so-and-so; we must wait on Him to do it. Sometimes it is said that a person receives the Holy Spirit because he believes, but it is not always so. In this case it was not so.

A.M. Do you think the defect was in Philip's preaching, or in those that heard?

J.T. I think it was the general position. God would assert Himself in the midst of all this great work, and show that He had His own sovereign rights, and they cannot be interfered with. That is

to say, things cannot be done or expected to be done automatically in the work of God. They must proceed from God; we have to learn that. However great the evident results may be, we must learn that God has His rights, and intervenes when He wishes.

A.M. I notice that when the apostles came down they prayed for them. Would that be bringing God into the situation?

J.T. It might be assumed that God was ignored in a sense in what these seven men were doing; they are very successful, but then God is saying, 'I have to say to this matter, I have certain rights', and we have to ask Him about it. Peter and John prayed for them.

P.A.H. So that really God seals the position by the bringing in of the Holy Spirit, and brings to light that which is spurious in Simon.

J.T. That is the idea, to bring the work of God on to its proper level, and this implies the sovereign activity of God, and that He must be waited on. We cannot say that things must be done, we may arrange preachings and so on, but we must see that God has His rights anyhow. We have to wait on Him. So they prayed. It says, "And the apostles who were in Jerusalem, having heard that Samaria had received the word of God, sent to them Peter and John; who, having come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit". It is Samaria, the whole province that is in mind, not simply one town. Peter and John put the matter in the hands of God, so that He might give the Holy Spirit. It might be said the Spirit had already come, which was true, but at the same time God is saying that He must give Him, and that we must look to God for Him. It is not an automatic matter, for it goes on to say, "for he was not yet fallen upon any of them, only they were baptised to the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid their hands upon them, and they

received the Holy Spirit". That is the position, so that the act of Peter and John is acknowledged, and God is acknowledged in it, and therefore the work proceeds. Then Simon's case is met, this magician who gave himself out that he was a great one. The case is met by Peter, who discerns and exposes Simon. We have to watch for an exposure of what is counterfeit. This man was not converted according to God, nor was he in fellowship according to God.

J.A.A. The enemy was saying, "This is the power of God which is called great", but God was to show that the power to go on with things stood in relation to the Holy Spirit.

J.T. The whole position is restored to its normal setting, which is very important, I should say, in this chapter.

A.M. Would this be an illustration of what Paul says to Timothy, "Lay hands quickly on no man"? 1 Timothy 5:22 Do we need to be alert as to how the enemy may get in in this way? Had Simon been received, what harm he might have done.

J.T. At the time of a so-called Welsh revival a great deal was made of a certain man who was used apparently, but it turned out to be counterfeit; not that there were no converts, but the work itself could not be said to be of God. The enemy took advantage of it, and took it out of its proportion.

E.N.J. Are the operations of the Holy Spirit one whole? I was wondering if the fact that the Holy Spirit did not come readily to these converts would show that God had the work in hand at Jerusalem, and other parts, and no isolated work was to flourish without being connected with what He already had in hand.

J.T. That is a good remark; so in chapter 10 we have Cornelius. He was a subject of the work of God before, and the Spirit of God came to him. He had a vision. He was owned by heaven itself, and Peter

was brought into it, and Peter began to preach to Cornelius. Quite a company was gathered to hear him in Cornelius' house, and then what happened was that the Holy Spirit Himself fell upon them that were hearing the word. The Holy Spirit Himself came upon them; there is no statement of their being converted directly. It was just a question of the hearing of the word that Peter was preaching, and while Peter was preaching, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were hearing the word.

A.M. Would there be a kind of reference, do you think, to the rise of the clerical element here in connection with Simon, and the danger of it that is always present?

J.T. Quite so.

A.M. I was thinking of the mercenary idea that seems to be uppermost in men's minds. Really we have to discern what lies behind these things. No doubt Peter sees it, and says, "Thy money go with thee to destruction".

J.T. Paul said he had a right to these things, for God had ordained that a preacher of the gospel should live of it; but Paul said he took nothing of them. We have that over against what we have here, showing it is necessary to maintain the right balance in the use of Scripture, and in the preaching.

A.T.G. Are we to learn something from the fact that the heart is mentioned: "Thy heart is not upright before God"?

J.T. Yes, I would say it is a question of new birth that is involved. John's ministry was not yet brought into the Scriptures, but it came in in due time. The Lord had reserved John. He said, "If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?" (John 21:22) That is what the Lord answered Peter, and John's ministry comes in, and it deals with new birth and with the inwards of a man, and so, "Except any one be born anew he cannot see the kingdom of God". (John 3:3)

That is to say, we have to see that God has His own way; that it is not altogether merely what is said in preaching, but what God does sovereignly, and that is what you get in John 3 and 4. John 3:3 is "Except any one be born anew he cannot see the kingdom of God". That is to say, no matter what preaching he listens to, or whatever gift there may be used to convert him, there has to be a sovereign work of God; and so here, Simon's heart was not changed. That is to say, the real work of God had not taken effect in him.

J.S.P. You would say Peter was faithful to him? He says, "Repent therefore of this thy wickedness", and it causes Simon to ask Peter to supplicate for him.

J.T. But then the solemn thing is, that we have no further record as to what happened; the matter is just left. So we see that we must bring God in in all these cases to get results for eternity, however much preaching there may be.

E.N.J. Should we be able to discern the good fish from those that are not good, and not be after numbers so much as quality?

J.T. Yes, that is Matthew. Matthew is brought into this whole position as well as John, and it is very interesting to discern how God brings in His servants and makes way for them for their ministry; but yet it is all a question of what God is and does.

P.R.P. Would you say that this is a sort of principle as to everything that is done by us, as to waiting for God's hand to be manifested in it?

J.T. Well, I think that is the thing that God is saying. He has His rights, and whatever machinery we may bring into it, however much preaching, we have to come back to this, that God must do the work, that He is the source of everything.

A.M. Would the expression "Having ... shod your feet with the preparation of the glad tidings

of peace", (Ephesians 6:15) be in relation to divine Persons going before in the gospel?

J.T. Very good. Preparation, too, is another good word.

A.M. Philip went down apparently on his own exercises, which may be a good thing to do, but possibly his feet had not been sufficiently shod with a sense of real dependence on God. He must come in and seal the work.

J.T. I am sure that is very good, and I hope we will perhaps take it on a little too. This chapter contemplates that after the death of Stephen the word of God is used. First of all we have, "Those then that had been scattered went through the countries announcing the glad tidings of the word"; a thing to be noted, because the word is a question of God. It is God's word, not merely what He has said, but what He may still say, and therefore provision has to be made for the word, and we have throughout this chapter remarkable references to the use of Scripture in the service. The first reference is "the glad tidings of the word" (verse 4), and then we have in verse 12, "But when they believed Philip announcing the glad tidings concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptised, both men and women". And then the next one is in verse 14, "And the apostles who were in Jerusalem, having heard that Samaria had received the word of God" (notice the word of God) "sent to them Peter and John; who, having come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit". That is to say the preaching of the word is in mind, and that the gift of the Holy Spirit should come in after that; and so Peter and John are sent for that purpose. And then the next reference is in verse 25, "They therefore, having testified and spoken the word of the Lord, returned to Jerusalem, and announced the glad tidings to

many villages of the Samaritans". This time it is the word of the Lord, not the word of God, or the word, but "the word of the Lord". They returned to Jerusalem and announced the glad tidings. Not saying what glad tidings, but it was simply the glad tidings, and they announced it in many villages of the Samaritans. And then so as to make the thing clear, another reference is in verse 35, "And Philip, opening his mouth and beginning from that scripture, announced the glad tidings of Jesus to him". That is another term or title, as we may say, of the glad tidings, "the glad tidings of Jesus". Then we have finally in verse 40, "And Philip was found at Azotus, and passing through he announced the glad tidings to all the cities till he came to Caesarea".

I mention all that because it enters into the subject before us, the question of the continuance of the testimony, of the preaching in spite of all difficulties, and that God is asserting His rights in it as to His testimony, that He may take up a man like Philip and use him, and finally carry him away; it says he was found at Azotus. He was raptured, you might say, because he was so honoured in heaven. It says, "But when they came up out of the water the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip"; that is, he was raptured. It does not say where he was taken, but he was taken away, "and the eunuch saw him no longer, for he went on his way rejoicing. And Philip was found at Azotus", showing that God is honouring His servant at this juncture.

P.B.P. In saying all that, have you in mind that the enemy is particularly attacking the testimony of the glad tidings, and that what is before us in this city has that in mind? I mean the matter of unionism and associations. The enemy is really seeking to attack the testimony of the gospel.

J.T. And the answer on our side is to continue persistently with the truth of the gospel, with the

testimony. Keep at it! Keep at the truth, so that there may be results.

J.S.P. Linking ourselves up with the things of this world would put us in bondage, but having the light and truth before us would set us at liberty, would it not?

J.T. The chapter is a study for every one of us, whether in this city or any city, at the juncture we have reached in the ministry which has been given lately in these countries. The Spirit of God has helped us in a remarkable way; that is my own judgment about it; and the question now is whether the brethren will go on steadily with the truth, with the testimony. There is only one testimony. It cannot be linked up with any particular country, and God is going on with that testimony. In this chapter it is to be the gift of the Spirit. Even though the Spirit has been here for centuries, God gives Him to the believer. At the end of the chapter we come to the end of the testimony as to Philip; he is found at Azotus; he is raptured, God is honouring him. That is, God is saying that the Spirit of the Lord in the power of the rapture is going to take the assembly according to 1 Thessalonians 4.

E.N.J. Is the great thing in view in the preaching of the gospel, that there might be material secured for the assembly? I was thinking of Philip's converts. Where they had not received the Holy Spirit, they would hardly be ready to form part of the assembly until they did receive the Holy Spirit, and that is God's sovereign gift.

J.T. Philip is owned later as an evangelist: "Philip the evangelist", and he "had four virgin daughters who prophesied", (Acts 21:9). It is simply to show the links in what God is doing that I refer to it.

E.N.J. There was great rejoicing in the city of Samaria over some who had received the forgiveness of their sins, but there is something further than that.

The great thing is that souls should be secured for the assembly.

C.McC. In the rapturing of Philip, does God show that though He comes in sovereignly, it is all His own work, that He is delighted with persons going on in the testimony and standing for things and being found in line with what He is doing?

J.T. Just so, and the great work now is to see to it that souls who profess to have light and to have received blessing should receive the Holy Spirit, that full room is made for the action of the Holy Spirit.

A.M. Do you think it had to be an angel that spoke to Philip? Would that be possibly a suggestion that he has not sufficiently honoured the Holy Spirit in his service? The Spirit takes him on later, but not at first.

J.T. I should not like to discredit anything Philip did. Whilst an angel directed him, that is simply to bring out the place that angelic service has in the testimony, that even in some cases angels are used to guide the servants. While angels are used in the ordinary affairs of this world in which we are found, yet they are also used in more exalted work than even perhaps directing armies and the like, which has often happened in our own times. The angels are at times used in more exalted work, and this is an instance of it, in that the angel is used to direct Philip where to go. I would say, I am looking to the Lord about my movements and service, and the Lord may direct me, and I hope He will, I am counting on Him. Here it is not the Spirit that directs Philip at first, so it says, "The angel of the Lord spoke to Philip, saying, Rise up and go southward on the way which goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza: the same is desert". He is directing him away from Samaria to a desert place. And it says he rose up and went. He goes immediately, and

does what he is told; and then we hear of the Ethiopian who comes into the picture; and then it says in verse 29, "And the Spirit said to Philip, Approach and join this chariot. And Philip, running up, heard him reading the prophet Esaias". He was reading chapter 53. You were alluding to some defect in Philip, but I am just wondering if there is. Philip moved exactly as he was told by the angel, and then by the Spirit of God, and then he is finally raptured by the Spirit of the Lord, not by an angel. It seems to me that whatever we may think of Philip's preaching, he is honoured throughout until he is raptured. His house is evidently right too, for he had four daughters who prophesied.

A.M. Do you think he would really be becoming more spiritual?

J.T. I think that is the way to put it. He was progressing. I do not think there is any real hint of defect in his preaching, but he is advancing spiritually, normally I would say; so that the chapter is full of instruction for us as to the service of God; both as to the service itself and as to the work of the Holy Spirit, and the converts.

J.A.A. There is that which is desert. Does that indicate that there are no resources apart from God and the power of the Spirit?

J.T. Yes, and that the servant is tested by being sent to a desert when he had been preaching. He has plenty of opportunity to preach. We often hear of persons saying they do not get invitations to preach. Well, Philip is an example. He was not invited to preach, or even sent to preach, and yet he preached and was used of God; so it is a question of everyone taking up his work. If he has no work allotted to him, let him do something, whatever he finds to do, and do it with his might. That is what Philip did.

E.N.J. Would we as thus seeking to announce the glad tidings rely on the faithfulness of God?

We have an example of it here in the eunuch getting blessing, answering to the prayer of Solomon in 1 Kings 8:41 - 43, "as to the stranger also, who is not of thy people Israel, but cometh out of a far country for thy name's sake; ... when he shall come and pray toward this house, hear thou in the heavens thy dwelling-place, and do according to all that the stranger calleth to thee for". God is working, and He is faithful, and we should be watching and seeking to be in line with what God is doing Himself. He was about to bless this man.

J.T. That is just it. Philip had found work in Samaria, and he had done it. That the Spirit was withheld is not much to say, because the same was true of others; the men at Ephesus did not even know that the Holy Spirit was come. So we are not to make so much of this passage, as if Philip was in any way defective, but rather to show that Philip was a servant; he had been appointed to deaconship, and now he is purchasing to himself a good degree. He is not asking to be invited, he is doing what he finds to do and doing it well. The point is that each of us is to do what his hand finds to do, and do it well; that is what Philip did.

A.M. Do you think we are often greatly tested in relation to personal evangelising? We have to do with our neighbours and so on, and would not that be a good field for us to work on, so to speak, more than expecting platform occasions and so on?

J.T. Well, exactly. Platform occasions, of course, give more distinction and honour may be, but the point is to be humble and take a low place, and do anything that comes in our way that may be profitable.

D.H.B. The result of Philip's preaching in Samaria was that there were those prepared for movement, the paralysed and lame were healed.

J.T. Quite so. That is what we see in chapter 3. The man who had been lame, walked and leaped;

that is, he was fit for fellowship. He remained with the apostles. He was like Jairus' daughter; she walked. She was twelve years old, indicating that at that time a person might be fit for fellowship.

R.McC. Why is it that baptism is mentioned several times in this chapter?

J.T. Well, I think baptism is what the passover was in Israel. It is a sign. It ought to be immersion, not simply sprinkling. The person should go down into the water; that comes out here, the fact of immersion, being completely covered by the water, and coming up out of it, so that it becomes a sign not only of death, but of resurrection. That is in the second chapter of Colossians. The sign of judaism, which is the passover, is not to be compared with the grandeur and greatness of the sign that is seen in Christianity in a man being baptised, going right down into the water and coming up again; the baptiser and the baptised going right down into the water.

A.M. It is a part of the gospel that Philip brought to him, and it enters into the preaching in that sense.

J.T. Just so. The man was reading Isaiah 53; a beautiful testimony about the Lord Himself. Isaiah says, "When we see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. He is despised and left alone of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief, and like one from whom men hide their faces; -- despised, and we esteemed him not Isaiah 53:2,3". Philip said to the eunuch, "Dost thou then know what thou art reading of? And he said, How should I then be able unless some one guide me? ... And Philip, opening his mouth and beginning from that scripture, announced the glad tidings of Jesus to him". Philip shows a good example to us in evangelising, to use whatever scripture is read; and then he baptised him. I think that is a glorious statement,

and shows how the service of God is carried on, and how we may be taken up to serve God; starting small and doing what we can, as the Lord says of the woman, "She hath done what she could (Mark 14:8)".

J.M. Is it an intelligent following of the Lord on the part of the eunuch? He saw the Lord as one whose life was taken from the earth, who had nothing here, and he desired to be identified with Him.

J.T. It is a passage that is not easy to open up in doctrine, but it would open up much to us if we look into it carefully, and wait upon the Lord about it. What does His life being taken from the earth really mean? It is not a question of the Lord going to heaven. It says, "His life is taken from the earth".

J.M. I was wondering if the eunuch being baptised would indicate that he was a man who could intelligently follow this.

J.T. Quite so. God is gracious, and reached him on the way of the desert, and at the same time Philip has to go through that experience; undoubtedly he becomes a better servant after he has gone to the desert and met the eunuch and got on to his chariot. What an experience it was, and how agile Philip was! He ran and discerned what the man was reading. He was alert, a remarkable man and near to God in that peculiar way.

DIVINE ACTIVITIES IN SUPPORT OF THE TESTIMONY (6)

Acts 9:1 - 31

J.T. The question arises as to the use of the word 'assemblies', whether it is really in this chapter, although it is said in verse 31, "The assemblies then throughout the whole of Judaea and Galilee and Samaria had peace, being edified and walking in the fear of the Lord, and were increased through the comfort of the Holy Spirit". The word 'assemblies' is questionable, as the footnote would show. This would mean that the idea of local assemblies has to be postponed to chapter 14. The assembly was viewed, if the note is correct, as a whole, that is in a metropolitan sense, until chapter 14, when we have the expression "each assembly", elders being chosen in each assembly. This may seem to be unimportant, but it is important, because it helps us as to the early formation of the assembly. I mention all this as perhaps some may not have noticed it, but it is worth noticing now in view of the instruction needed in the book of Acts and the formation of the assembly, for the idea of local assemblies is not properly reached until chapter 14:23, where we read, "And having chosen them elders in each assembly, having prayed with fastings, they committed them to the Lord Acts 14:23".

E.N.J. Do you think that the assembly was already functioning in a locality, in Damascus, inasmuch as the Lord is able to say to Paul that he should go into the city and it would be told him what he must do?

J.T. There are other instances, too, no doubt, so that we might say the assembly was functioning in a local sense; but the note would indicate the

contrary, and the choosing of elders in each assembly, according to chapter 14, confirms it.

B.G.W. Would that word 'assembly' in chapter 9:31, if correct there, be confined to the regions mentioned?

J.T. We would have to generalise it, and regard it as viewed as a whole. The first reference to eldership and to local assemblies appears to be in chapter 14:23, whereas 1 Corinthians 1:1 says, "Paul, a called apostle of Jesus Christ, by God's will, and Sosthenes the brother, to the assembly of God which is in Corinth". There the saints gathered together in Corinth, although local, are called "the assembly of God"; "with all that in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both theirs and ours 1 Corinthians 1:2". This is where we get the formal reference to assemblies, local assemblies. The chapter we have read does refer to the local idea, if we are to take the authorised version as it is, but the note to which I have referred in verse 31 says, "or assembly", that is to say "the assembly then throughout the whole of Judaea and Galilee and Samaria had peace". The note is a critical one, and I believe we are to consider it, so as to see how the truth developed.

P.A.H. Does that bring out the importance of what was committed to Paul? We need the truth as committed to him, so that the truth of the assembly should be developed in our localities.

J.T. That is what I would say. The saints had to wait until Paul was brought in for the thought of local assemblies to develop, and so you have the remarkable statement about "Paul and his company" in chapter 13 which brings out the place that Paul immediately had; "And having sailed from Paphos, Paul and his company came to Perga of Pamphylia Acts 13:13". That is the first reference we have to any brother, even an apostle, having a company, and bears out what we have been saying as to the local assembly.

I hope the brethren will not think I am diverting them, but I think it is important we should all know the setting of these scriptures, and the place the assembly has in view of local formation.

E.N.J. What have you in mind as to elders?

J.T. Well; elders are never viewed in the singular. We never hear of an elder over one assembly. It is in the plural, and that would show that what is common in the denominations is not to be trusted; that is, a man assuming he has a flock and that he is the bishop of it, because one would mean that the elder is just a bishop in the sense of a clergyman, whereas he is only one of others. The local assemblies are to be ruled by elders. The governing is in their hands, and hence we have the instruction as to eldership in Paul's epistles to Titus and Timothy.

P.R.P. Is the appointment of the seven deacons earlier a special matter, I mean in relation to the metropolitan position?

J.T. That is the idea exactly. These seven were working together. They were not segregated into so many bishops of assemblies.

A.M. We have to give due place to the idea of choice or election even today. I was thinking that Saul is spoken of as an elect vessel. Does that not involve the idea of divine choice?

J.T. Yes, it does, but it is only said of one. Paul has that place, and only Paul. Not that there is not the idea of election, because there is. In the sixth chapter, as we had it, "Look out therefore, brethren, from among yourselves Acts 6:3". That was the choice.

E.N.J. In a locality there would be those that would qualify to take up such a service, and the brethren would recognise the qualifications.

J.T. We need to recognise that there is such as that, that there is local government, as it were, and that the whole assembly is not governed from one

centre, such as Rome claims. Rome claims the metropolitan idea, which is false. The idea is local assemblies -- plural.

E.N.J. It is not only what Christendom is in danger of, but we have to watch the same principle in our midst, lest anyone come forward and rule over the city.

J.T. That is so, and the local assembly is in the place, and if anything arises the whole assembly has to be listened to, and so Matthew says, "If also he will not listen to the assembly Matthew 18:17". The local assembly has a voice, and that is what Matthew deals with.

C.W. Would 1 Corinthians 14:29 help, "And let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge"?

J.T. Very good. That is a question of what we call prophetic ministry. It is very important, because it gives room for the Spirit as the prophets may speak, two or three.

D.H.B. Would the understanding of eldership tend to more mutuality with us?

J.T. It does, of course, but there must be authority connected with the idea, and so we have in 1 Timothy, and in Titus, a description of an elder, and how he functions, and that authority goes with him. At the same time room should be made for the expression of local feeling in matters, so that the brethren may have liberty and not be wholly dominated by any group.

J.M. So in chapter 15:22 it says, "Then it seemed good to the apostles and to the elders, with the whole assembly, to send chosen men from among them with Paul and Barnabas to Antioch Acts 15:22". I was thinking of what you said, elders are always in the plural, and the whole assembly is brought in as well.

J.T. Yes, but the local assemblies are not touched in chapter 15. What is in mind there is what was current at Jerusalem; it was a question of the

solution of a difficulty and the effects, so that the matter is not settled in the local assembly; it was settled in a metropolitan sense, that is, the whole assembly is in mind in the settlement. And that is why I felt free to bring that fact forward, because I think it would help us all in our consideration of the book of Acts, and the important matters that are current amongst us now.

P.R.P. Do you think in a city like this we are in danger of exerting undue influence over smaller meetings in the country?

J.T. There would be that danger unless the local position is fully owned. There would always be that danger of a central position governing a whole province, or even a whole country.

P.A.H. So that the very smallest meeting is to be moving in the light of Paul's ministry.

J.T. Just so, and therefore the decision reached in Brisbane will hold universally with us. We have to recognise that there is a local responsibility in Brisbane, and that Sydney cannot exert authority over it. It has its own place in relation to the Lord. It is responsible to Him.

C.T.McC. Is your thought in the coming in of Saul in his conversion, that these things are to be opened up for us, things potentially are there in the conversion of Saul?

J.T. The Lord had that in mind when He chose Saul. He needed Saul. "This man is an elect vessel to me". We see from Paul's epistles, and the book of the Acts, how true it is that everything converges on Paul's ministry; as to the final result we have to go to Paul. None of the twelve had such a place as he had in the Lord's mind.

P.A.H. He is really the one who appointed elders in every place, and he also sets forth the qualifications for elderhood.

J.T. Just so. It seems to me, that the very

things we are saying now ought to be noted, that we are in a local assembly now, and brethren in the other part of the hall ought to have just the same liberty as brothers on the platform. The Spirit of God, or the Lord Himself, intended that the metropolitan idea should obtain at the beginning, but when Paul came in, it was clear that Paul would be the former of assemblies, as we may see in the book of Ecclesiastes. The word preacher there, is 'former of assemblies', not simply a preacher, but one who forms assemblies. I am endeavouring to link up what has been said with the brethren in the body of the hall, so that the principle of the local assembly may be present and active.

C.T.McC. Do you connect the words, "light from heaven", with the local assembly? Paul was converted in that way. Do you think that light from heaven is available locally?

J.T. That is just the idea. The second chapter has something that bears on the idea of a voice from heaven. On the day of Pentecost there came suddenly a sound out of heaven, not light, but sound out of heaven, and then the light from heaven later, so that the idea is that everything comes out of heaven. At the same time there is that which is on earth, and that is our point tonight, what is on earth; that there is the local assembly, and the total of all would be the assembly, and that is what the Lord is going to translate. He is going to translate the whole o the assembly into heaven, not local assemblies.

P.A.H. The truth as ministered would have a universal bearing. The working out of it would be locally, and where there are any peculiar difficulties such as we are seeking to get help on at the present moment, the working out of the matter is local.

J.T. That is right. The working out of the matter must be local. Each assembly must work out things by itself. That is really what is meant by the first

and second letters to Corinth, as to working out the truth of the local assembly.

D.H.B. When the elders are appointed in chapter 14, it is said, "having chosen them elders in each assembly, having prayed with fastings Acts 14:23". Is that where everyone comes into it?

J.T. Quite so. Fasting is denying what might hinder the work of the Spirit, denying ourselves things which may be right in themselves, but apt to clog the working of the Spirit; hence fasting is added to prayer.

A.M. Do you think the bringing in of Damascus here is significant? It seems to have great significance, and then also the brethren that were there.

J.T. Quite so. The Lord makes His own selection. He waits until Paul reaches gentile territory, because He is going to show the latitude He has to work out His thoughts, proceeding into gentile territory; He is not confining Himself to Jewish territory.

C.G.McC. Although the local assemblies have their own peculiar exercises, and must work them out for themselves, there is a sense, is there not, in which the whole assembly feels the pressure of things? The Lord said, "Why persecutest thou me?" -- referring to the pressure on the whole assembly.

J.T. And then, of course, the interdependence of the local assemblies is assured. Paul says, "Thus I ordain in all the assemblies" (1 Corinthians 7:17); that is, similarity is to regulate all the assemblies universally; and they are to be governed by the same principles and ways. This would shut out denominationalism as in the Church of England, and the Presbyterian Church, because they do not represent the assembly. No national church can represent the assembly. The assembly is out of heaven. It will come out of heaven presently. When the time comes for the Lord to take it on, it is seen coming down from God out of heaven. In the meantime we see the

assembly in its local setting now. In the beginning of Revelation the Lord is seen first in the midst of the assemblies; the word is plural there.

P.R.P. Would you say that at the end of the book of Revelation, we have the pearls referred to as being the completed article, so to speak, from each place?

J.T. Very good. The preciousness of the thing, what the assembly is in that sense. How precious it is!

P.R.P. And then various stones, too, referred to as each produced in its own peculiar setting.

J.T. Very good. Such expressions as that direct us to the preciousness of the formation, to what the saints are, so that we should not have common thoughts about them. Each gate was one pearl for instance, showing how precious even the gates are.

E.N.J. What bearing would what you have brought before us have upon this matter of associations and the attack of the enemy on the assembly?

J.T. Well, I think it is well to have the whole matter before us, as it has been, but now the question is as to association. We have to see how Saul the persecutor was taken up by the Lord. These things that we are having to deal with imply persecution. Perhaps a brother or a sister is in a certain office, and he or she is not free to become a member of any trade association, and he is discharged, or she is discharged. Well, he or she is persecuted. That is what it means, and the persecution is absolutely wrong. There is no ground for the discharge, there is no righteous ground for it.

E.N.J. What occurred here in this ninth chapter when Paul was converted seems to frustrate the enemy's attack for the time being. "The assemblies then ... had peace".

J.T. Just so, and God may come in now in these serious matters that have been occupying the brethren

in these countries, and He may do something to baffle the enemy, to negate all he is endeavouring to do, and to give the saints rest in their employments. The Lord took notice of what Saul was doing, and He determined that He would undo what he was doing, but He would undo it in a gracious way. He would convert Saul, and He did. Let us then examine the character of the conversion, what it really was in Saul's case. We are told, "Saul rose up from the earth, and his eyes being opened he saw no one. But leading him by the hand they brought him into Damascus. And he was three days without seeing, and neither ate nor drank". Well, that was a remarkable thing. Did ever a man have such a conversion? I doubt it, such a conversion as is described here.

P.R.P. Referring back a little to what you were saying as to such persecution being entirely wrong, we have been a little inclined to take account of what has been said by the authorities and to bow to that, whilst recognising in a way that it was not right. Would you help us on that point?

J.T. Well, I think we are suffering the loss of a good conscience if we proceed on those lines. Paul says everything he did was with a good conscience. How can we preserve our consciences if we do not do what is right?

P.R.P. So that irrespective of who says it, the thing is right or wrong before God, and we have to view it only from that angle.

J.T. That is what I would say, exactly. The brethren have to be considered, and I am sure they are considered; brethren in other countries are considering what we have to go through down here; but at the same time there must be suffering. If we are to get the truth and work it out we must suffer. "Unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not

only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake", (Philippians 1:29).

P.R.P. The Lord showed him how much he should suffer.

J.T. That is exactly the word. "I will shew him", He said.

C.T.McC. Do you view suffering as not just something that may come, but as something which, as a matter of principle, every Christian rightly has to go through?

J.T. That is what it says in Philippians. It is given to us "in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake" Philippians 1:29; and so Paul says, "I fill up that which is behind of the tribulations of Christ in my flesh, for his body, which is the assembly", (Colossians 1:24).

E.N.J. Paul may be regarded as the spoil of this great exercise, this great persecution which came upon the saints; the enemy was frustrated, but then there was spoil in the matter, and this wonderful vessel was secured.

J.T. What a spoil it was!

R.G.W. Do you regard Saul's conversion as an intervention?

J.T. Yes, that is the word. The Lord intervened to protect His people; they were as a tender plant, you might say, in the midst of a cruel world, and the Lord intervened to protect them, and take away the man that was persecuting them. When Saul said, "What shall I do, Lord?" the Lord said, "Rise up, and go to Damascus, and there it shall be told thee of all things which it is appointed thee to do". So that he has to learn from the humble saints of Damascus, and this is what each one has to do, learn from the saints.

A.M. It is remarkable how quickly Saul comes under the idea of the Lord's authority, is it not?

J.T. Quite so. The Lord waited till he got on to

Syrian territory, and then He tells him, so to speak. It says, "he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? And he said, Who art thou, Lord?" He at once calls Him Lord. When he left Jerusalem with letters from the high priest he would not call Him Lord, but would be respectful to the high priest.

W.J.B. Would this help us as to the character of preaching? Saul, we may say, was converted from heaven. The preaching should have a heavenly character about it, it comes from heaven.

J.T. So the next thing we get is, "And straightway there fell from his eyes as it were scales, and he saw, and rising up was baptised; and, having received food, got strength". "And straightway in the synagogues he preached Jesus that he is the Son of God. And all who heard were astonished and said, Is not this he who destroyed in Jerusalem those who called on this name, and here was come for this purpose, that he might bring them bound to the chief priests?" So that he immediately preached that He is the Son of God. We have no word that he was told to do that, but he did it. It says, "straightway in the synagogues he preached Jesus that he is the Son of God". Well that is the preaching. Is that what you have in mind?

W.J.B. Yes; I was thinking of the voice from heaven. What struck him down was the voice from heaven, and the gospel preaching as going out should have that character, as from heaven.

J.T. That is true, and of course he was not taken up to preach. His commission begins later. When he is taken up in chapter 13, he goes out with Barnabas, and there you get his preaching, the sort of thing they were preaching, he and Barnabas.

E.N.J. This would seem to indicate that what was in Damascus was the true work of God, inasmuch as he received food and got strength, and then he begins

to preach that Jesus is the Son of God, indicating that the disciples there were able to help this new convert.

J.T. They did not attempt to help him as to his preaching. It is a question of what he did. I am sure that the brother whom the Lord sent to serve Paul did not tell him to preach the Son of God. I am certain he did not do that.

A.T.G. Would it help us to see that this conflict revolves around the Person? The name is referred to several times. It is not a matter of how it affects us, but it is the name.

J.T. It is for Him, and so the Lord said He would show him. "This man is an elect vessel to me, to bear my name before both nations and kings and the sons of Israel: for I will shew to him how much he must suffer for my name". That is the position now: suffering for the name.

P.A.H. Then as facing persecution, is it not comforting and supporting to realise how the Lord is intimately with us, as He expressed to Paul, "I am Jesus, whom thou persecutest"? The Lord is with us in it.

J.T. Just so, but see how virulent the enemy was in this instrument of his, that is, Saul of Tarsus, and now how he completely turns round to be a follower of Jesus, and to make everything of the name of Jesus; as he says himself later, "that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, ... and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father (Philippians 2:10,11)".

D.H.B. Is the preaching of the Son of God an evidence that the power of God is in expression now, Saul having been converted?

J.T. Just so, and that the testimony was taking new form, really beginning and taking on a new character, it was the preaching of the Son of God. Peter did not preach the Son of God in the second

chapter. It is now a question of the preaching of the Son of God, and so Paul says, explaining his position and commission, "God, who ... was pleased to reveal his Son in me (Galatians 1:15,16)". That is not said of Peter. Peter confessed the Lord, as the Father had revealed to Peter, that Christ was the Son of the living God. Peter's confession was, "Thou art ... the Son of the living God" (Matthew 16:16); but to Paul it is that God revealed His Son in him, not to him, that he might announce Him as glad tidings among the nations; so that the preaching had taken on a new character in Paul's ministry.

E.N.J. You are suggesting that this preaching of the Son of God is not what he secured from the brethren in Damascus, but something fresh the Lord had given him, and it would be the forerunner of much the Lord would give him?

J.T. So that he took on something of the spirit and character of Stephen and Philip, who acted of themselves in preaching. Philip went down to Samaria, and preached the Christ; he did not preach the Son of God, but preached the Christ.

A.M. Would there be something for the affections about that, some special touch of affection in relation to the Son of God?

J.T. I think that is right. "The Son of God", Paul says, "who loved me, and gave himself for me", (Galatians 2:20). It is a beautiful touch as to the place the Lord should have with us.

A.M. I was thinking of the peculiar impression that Paul seems to have received of the person of Jesus, who He was, and he seems to impart that in all his gospel.

J.T. Yes, he says,"That I may announce him as glad tidings among the nations (Galatians 1:16)".

P.A.H. Would that really bring us into victory according to John's epistle, "Who is he that gets

the victory over the world, but he that believes that Jesus is the Son of God?" (1 John 5:5)?

J.T. How fully John was with Paul in his ministry. How John, Peter, and Paul were one really in what they preached, although Paul excelled and led in what was to be preached. He really began a new order of things in preaching and took on the whole thought.

J.M. The place of Paul's conversion was on the Damascus road. He says in Galatians that he did not confer with flesh and blood, nor went he up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before him. All this suggests the unique character of Paul's preaching.

J.T. Yes, and it is of supreme importance to suffer for the name. We ought to be stimulated.

R.G.W. I would like to ask if in the way the Lord dealt with Saul, the leader of the opposition, by converting him, we have a present moral application of Psalm 2:4 "He that dwelleth in the heavens shall laugh, the Lord shall have them in derision"?

J.T. Very good, and it is the Son of God there, because the Son is mentioned. That came up in the conflict we had fifteen or twenty years ago, and greatly helped us as to sonship in the book of Psalms. The section we have read says that Paul was to suffer. "But Saul increased the more in power, and confounded the Jews who dwelt in Damascus, proving that this is the Christ. Now when many days were fulfilled, the Jews consulted together to kill him". This shows the terrible nature of the opposition. "But their plot became known to Saul. And they watched also the gates both day and night, that they might kill him; but the disciples took him by night and let him down through the wall, lowering him in a basket". Paul has this experience of being lowered in a basket, but he accepted it; and then it says, "And having arrived at Jerusalem he essayed to

join himself to the disciples, and all were afraid of him, not believing that he was a disciple. But Barnabas took him and brought him to the apostles, and related to them how he had seen the Lord in the way". We get now the true character of Barnabas, who was surnamed by the apostles, Son of consolation. How he shines here! It says, "Barnabas took him and brought him to the apostles, and related to them how he had seen the Lord in the way, and that he had spoken to him, and how in Damascus he had spoken boldly in the name of Jesus". So that Barnabas is taken on, and God is using him to bring out Paul, to bring him into the testimony. And so it goes on, "he was with them coming in and going out at Jerusalem, and speaking boldly in the name of the Lord. And he spoke and discussed with the Hellenists; but they sought to kill him", showing the murderous character of the opposition to Christ and His people. "And the brethren knowing it, brought him down to Caesarea and sent him away to Tarsus". And then the verse we have already commented on: "The assemblies then throughout the whole of Judaea and Galilee and Samaria had peace, being edified and walking in the fear of the Lord, and were increased through the comfort of the Holy Spirit" -- a wonderful finish to this great episode, the conversion of Saul and his being brought into the testimony, awaiting the full time of it which we get in his epistles.

J.A.A. The local assembly at Jerusalem took on all that was related to Paul, did they not? He was with them coming in and going out, and they would take on all the feelings of the sufferings that Paul had, the local assembly would become affected by that.

J.T. That is so, and then Barnabas was there, the son of consolation, to comfort the saints. We ought to look for that in our companies.

E.N.J. The Holy Spirit is mentioned here in this great work of comforting the brethren. The Lord spoke of Him in that way, another Comforter.

J.T. Yes, how John fits in with Paul's ministry in that sense, because in John 14 the Lord speaks of another Comforter the Father would send, and we see how the idea of comfort is also worked out in Paul's ministry.

ADMINISTRATION

Acts 10:1 - 21; Acts 10:44 - 48

J.T. It is hoped that the principle of administration may come before us profitably at this time. It fits peculiarly into this chapter and the latter part of chapter 9, which presents Peter as passing through all quarters, indicating that he was alive to what the Spirit was doing in taking up Paul, and so the allusion to Aeneas is particularly in accord with the moment, because it was a time of liberty in service, and in all those who were serving. Aeneas had been a long time paralysed, and he had been lying for eight years upon a couch. Peter said to him, "Aeneas, Jesus, the Christ, heals thee: rise up, and make thy couch for thyself (Acts 9:34)". That is to say the principle of local responsibility is herein set out, as if Peter discerned the time for it had come, not that Peter could have known everything, but the Spirit of God did. The time for the assertion of, and liberty for, local responsibility had come, and so Aeneas was to do things for himself, he was to make his bed for himself. So each of us is to bestir himself in view of what may be needful and current. Whatever he can do, let him do it; if he is to make his bed, let him do it, and do it for himself.

Then the other case in which Peter was active at the close of chapter 9 concerned Tabitha, a woman who had been distinguished as making garments for others. But she died, and much ado is made of her by the widows. It says, "She was full of good works and alms-deeds which she did. And it came to pass in those days that she grew sick and died; and, having washed her, they put her in the upper room, Acts 9:36,37" and so forth. Then they sent for Peter, as if Peter was the man needed for the working out of things in view

of the new order of service that was inaugurated. So he was sent for. Then it says, "all the widows stood by him weeping and shewing him the body-coats and garments which Dorcas had made while she was with them. But Peter, putting them all out, and kneeling down, prayed Acts 9:39,40". As if he would remove all that would interfere with God's service. Much was to be done, and laziness was not to be admitted at all; and so he put them all out, which is sometimes needed, otherwise we should be clogged. Then kneeling down, he prayed, showing that he is dependent on God. Then, "turning to the body, he said, Tabitha, arise. And she opened her eyes, and, seeing Peter, sat up. And having given her his hand, he raised her up, and having called the saints and the widows, presented her living Acts 9:40,41". The saints are now included. So that on the one hand Aeneas is set up working, doing things for himself that should be done, not expecting others to do them, and then this sister is made alive. A new order of things would be set out in her too. Instead of making garments in the sense in which they were made earlier, she is presented living. That is to say, a living person. I thought it well to call attention to these facts as entering into chapter 10, preparing the way for it indeed. Chapter 10 is the great administrative act of Peter in opening the door to the gentiles, but all these facts spoken of just now are making way for it, in view of Paul having been brought in.

P.A.H. Do you think that there was preparation of local material seen in Aeneas and Dorcas?

J.T. That is the idea. Local material; that is to say we need material, and of a local character. Aeneas and this sister Tabitha represent that material, so that we may now proceed with the idea of a local company. What we said before enters into it because we are now to be ready to enter upon the gentile position, in which Paul and Barnabas are to operate;

in the meantime the great idea of administration is to be set out in one selected by the Lord, not yet Paul, but Peter; because when Peter made his confession in Matthew 16, the Lord said to him, "Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona Matthew 16:17". He is a blessed man; he has come in for this wonderful disclosure as to Jesus, that He is the Son of the living God, and the Lord acknowledges him as blessed, and says, "Thou art Peter". That is not simply that his name was Peter, but he was stone material, durable material, suitable material for the assembly, and in this connection the Lord says to him, "I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven", Matthew 16:19.

E.N.J. It is remarkable, is it not, to see the way the Lord is working with certain individuals, with a view to their blessing, and at the same time working with Peter and preparing him to take in the gentiles?

J.T. That is the idea; working in a preparatory way; and it may be that we are now where this sort of thing exists; that is, in this city. That things have to be done that are left undone, and perhaps the fact that they are not done is interfering with what God is endeavouring to work out amongst us.

J.McN. Is there some evidence of the work of the Spirit of God in preparing material able to take on impressions from Paul's ministry?

J.T. But to take on impressions from Peter first, and then Paul; because Peter at once, according to his second epistle, is with Paul; there is no rivalry at all; Peter is fully with Paul. He says, "Our beloved brother Paul (2 Peter 3:15)". There was indeed friction earlier between Peter and Paul, but the Lord has come in and healed that. So now according to the

second epistle, there is thorough agreement between Paul and Peter, and that is the point that the Lord would stress amongst us -- that everything is in agreement; we are of one mind and moving together, understanding what there is for us positively, and understanding what there is against us negatively, so that it must be removed, and we must remove it together.

J.M. You made a remark as to the Lord wanting to do something in this city and we may be hindering; is that feature seen in Peter in putting them all out?

J.T. Well, that is the idea, he put these widows out. The saints are not mentioned at first. The widows apparently were in the way, because they were on natural, social lines, a sort of Dorcas Society, with just common social interests it may be.

J.M. The occupation of Dorcas would be on too low a level in that way.

J.T. Quite so. She is to be brought on to the level of life, because that is the point with God in all these things. As Caleb said, Jehovah had kept him alive for so many years, forty-five years. It is a question of life.

E.N.J. Would it appear that Dorcas had become a centre, seeing that these widows felt it so deeply that she had died? They were attached to her and her accomplishments.

J.T. Therefore they were driven out, because they were simply a mixed condition of things, just like the camp followers who followed Israel in the wilderness.

J.A.A. "And seeing Peter", it says, she "sat up Acts 9:40". There was something to look at in Peter.

J.T. Yes. There was a similar thought in Peter's first service after his first great address. He and John went up to the temple at the hour of prayer, and they said, "Look on us". There is something to see, and that is the point now. There is something

to see, not a mere religious building or the like, or a Dorcas Society, but something of God to be noticed.

A.M. Is there something in the fact that the keys of the kingdom are entrusted to Peter? You referred to the idea of the kingdom. Would that bear on these initial matters with us, for instance?

J.T. Well, just so. Peter was now qualified to take on this great phase, because it is a question of administration, and Peter is to be the administrator for the admission of the gentiles, and he is showing he is qualified in these closing verses of chapter 9. Is that in your mind?

A.M. Well, I was just wondering whether Peter did not give us light in his own ministry as to certain principles of the kingdom, making way for Paul.

J.T. I think he does. He has the leading place pending Paul's introduction. "First ... Peter", it says in Matthew; and it is Matthew who mentions Peter obtaining from the Lord the keys of the kingdom, not the key of David, but the keys of the kingdom of heaven.

P.A.H. Had you thought to refer to angelic service in this chapter?

J.T. Well, that would be the next thing. It says, "A certain man in Caesarea, -- by name Cornelius, a centurion of the band called Italic, pious, and fearing God with all his house, both giving much alms to the people, and supplicating God continually, -- saw plainly in a vision, about the ninth hour of the day, an angel of God coming unto him". So that angelic ministry has a great place. It seems to be particularly so in the introduction of the gentiles as in this chapter.

E.N.J. Is this work in connection with Cornelius something on the line of a work of extrication? He was apparently a very pious man, but he belonged to a band, did he not?

J.T. Well, he was a government man we might

say, a military officer, but at the same time he is a godly man, and that is the thing that is outstanding in him, because the angel speaks of it. "An angel of God coming unto him, and saying to him, Cornelius. But he, having fixed his eyes upon him, and become full of fear, said, What is it, Lord? And he said to him, Thy prayers and thine alms have gone up for a memorial before God". That is a very great matter, that a man should have a memorial, and he, so far as we know, was not a Christian. He had not professed the full truth of Christianity, and yet he has built up something in heaven.

E.N.J. Yet he is in view for blessing, and to be added to the assembly. Is that it?

J.T. But already he has a distinguished place; that is, he has a memorial before God, one of the most remarkable things said of any man.

J.McN. And then too, he prays at the ninth hour. He evidently is intelligent as to the hour of prayer.

J.T. Quite so, in keeping with the early activities of the Spirit through Peter and John.

P.A.H. I notice in verses 19 and 20, when the Spirit speaks to Peter, He says, "Behold, three men seek thee; but rise up, go down, and go with them, nothing doubting, because I have sent them". Is there some instruction in it? The angel really directs them, and speaks to Cornelius, but behind the speaking of the angel there is a divine Person, the Spirit, active in the matter.

J.T. That is very interesting, and we have already had something as to angelic ministry, and I believe it is important that we should all be clear about it. The Spirit of God is distinguished here and later in chapter 13, as acting of Himself. There have been inquiries as to this, and it may be the Lord would help us as to the position of the Spirit as being here. Although here as sent, yet He is a divine

Person and acts as of Himself, and independently as a divine Person. So that He says, "I have sent them".

P.A.H. So that angelic service would be always under the direction of a divine Person.

J.T. Quite so. But there is here the peculiar place that the Spirit has as asserting Himself. Verse 13 says, "there was a voice to him, Rise, Peter, slay and eat. And Peter said, In no wise, Lord; for I have never eaten anything common or unclean. And there was a voice again the second time to him, What God has cleansed, do not thou make common. And this took place thrice, and the vessel was straightway taken up into heaven. And as Peter doubted in himself what the vision which he had seen might mean, behold also the men who were sent by Cornelius, having sought out the house of Simon, stood at the gate, and having called some one, they inquired if Simon who was surnamed Peter was lodged there. But as Peter continued pondering over the vision, the Spirit said to him, Behold three men seek thee; but rise up, go down, and go with them, nothing doubting, because I have sent them". The "I" is emphatic. So it is a question in this remarkable passage, as well as in chapter 13, of the Spirit asserting His deity, and being in the position of speaking as a divine Person, ordering Peter and controlling all that he was doing. It is very important that all of us should be clear as to it, as to the Spirit having the place of a divine Person here below, and that He is here until the end of the dispensation according to John 14. He is another Comforter, and remains with us until the end.

A.M. He is a divine Person. He is not incarnate, and He requires a means or a vessel suitable for Him, and Peter fits in at this time.

J.T. He is not incarnate as you say, but He takes on persons, of course, and angels too, He takes on vessels suitable for His service. We can only decide

by the context who might have been used, as in chapter 13, because the Spirit in speaking may have spoken by someone.

E.N.J. You are referring to the Spirit saying, "Separate me now Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them", (Acts 13:2)? It is one of the Scriptures that assure us of the sovereign actings of the Holy Spirit.

J.T. And that He may act as in the inspiration of Scripture, as in the writing of this book by Luke, because Luke is the instrument, but the Spirit used him. We have to understand that while the Spirit is here, He is not incarnate as Christ was; Christ alone of the divine Persons became incarnate, and He is the great Vessel of God for operating.

R.G.W. Is that in line with what is said of spiritual manifestations in 1 Corinthians 12:11? "But all these things operates the one and the same Spirit, dividing to each in particular according as he pleases".

J.T. Very good. So that the Spirit operates through the vessels; in fact the peculiar word there in 1 Corinthians 12:12 is "so also is the Christ". That is, "the Christ" there is not simply Christ personally, but includes the assembly. It is a question of the assembly as the vessel that the Spirit is using and has chosen to use. Do you think that?

R.G.W. I just thought of the words "dividing to each ... as he pleases", 1 Corinthians 12:11 as emphasising His sovereign action.

J.T. Quite so. I hope the brethren will be free to enlarge on this, because it has been beclouded a little.

P.R.P. Have you something in mind as to the Holy Spirit's service in relation to angels?

J.T. The facts are; that they are used in relation to the Spirit, and the Spirit serves in relation to them, and what is to be seen is that angelic service

is a leading thought with God. The service is mentioned in the book of Job very early.

J.S.P. Is that how the testimony is carried on today, by the Spirit using men?

J.T. Very good, and His own choice too, not anyone, not those who have acquired ability and power through university training. It is a question of whom the Spirit would have. He uses His own vessels. It is a question of being available to Him, and He will use us.

J.S.P. Peter was in prayer about the sixth hour. Would that be the way we would come into things and be serviceable?

J.T. That is good, discerning the hour. It has been alluded to before, the idea of prayer having such a place in God's economy. It is of prime importance that we should be present at the time arranged for prayer; according to Luke 11 a certain one saw the Lord praying. He was praying in a certain place. That is another thing to notice; the word 'place'. A disciple said, "Lord, teach us to pray (Luke 11:1)". He did not say, 'Teach me to pray', but "Teach us to pray". He wanted all the brethren, to get the benefit of the teaching.

P.R.P. Would you link this thought up with Aeneas as to the Spirit taking on persons?

J.T. Quite so, Aeneas would be ready if he was starting to make his bed for himself. Then the Spirit would take him on, because chapter 8 shows that the Spirit took on Philip after the angel had taken him on.

P.R.P. I was seeking to follow up what you were suggesting as to the importance of doing things ourselves. At present, divine Persons are operating through men in a special way.

J.T. It is a question therefore of persons being available to the Spirit, because He will take us on as we are available.

A.G. We need to be concerned that we perceive when the Spirit speaks to us. There was no doubt in Peter's mind when the Spirit spoke, and he is able to recount it later.

J.T. Just so. Then we get "quench not the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19)". We may quench Him by ineptitude, by unrighteousness.

J.McN. Is this a further step in Peter's education? There are instances of his being taught in relation to fishes, but here in the vessel like a sheet it is in relation to unclean creatures.

J.T. I would think that. He is not sure about it, hence the force of the word "nothing doubting". Be sure of what you are doing and then do it. This is evidently a new experience for Peter, and he needed it, because it was a question of gentiles, and Peter might call them unclean, whereas they were not, for God had cleansed them. The time for God's cleansing of the gentiles had come, and Peter might stand in the way; but God preserved him from that, because Peter did what he was told.

E.N.J. We need to be ready for God's sovereign movement in that way. He may take up most unlikely persons and use them, as the contents of this vessel would indicate.

J.T. So that we are to be ready for that, and make way for them; and we may thank God for the number of younger men He has raised up and is using.

C.McC. Would the fact that Peter was in a house by the sea, and also that the vessel was as a great sheet which had four corners, indicate that God had a great universal system in view?

J.T. That is the idea exactly. It had four corners, and was knit at the four corners. It was held together, it was not held loosely. The idea was something that was going up into heaven, and being carried up.

R.G.W. Although it does not say Peter was deliberately on the line of fasting, the fact that he was fasting seems to be used by the Spirit for further revelation or instruction. Is there some lead to us in that?

J.T. He was hungry and desired to eat, and God used that to bring the whole matter into its place. So that he went up to pray while the meal was being prepared, instead of misusing his time or whiling it away, and he is taken on, God honouring him, showing how godly he was. He goes up to pray, and becomes in an ecstasy. What you mean, maybe, is that the ecstasy was possible because he was fasting. I would agree with that.

A.M. Would it be right to say that in Cornelius also there seem to be certain preparatory features that are very important? For instance the men say of him that he is a righteous man, and he is able to say of himself, "I was praying in my house", and before that he said, "I had been fasting".

J.T. Cornelius was ready for what was opened up to him; and that would bring in the question of fasting, which is of prime importance; it came before us in Sydney in our committal to the Lord in prayer. It is noticeable that Esther only asked for fasting; she did not ask for prayer, and yet the result of the fasting was of great moment, as anyone would see who reads the book of Esther.

J.S.P. Do they run together? There was one whom the disciples could not heal, and when they took him to the Lord and raised the question as to why they could not heal him, the Lord said, "This kind does not go out but by prayer and fasting", (Matthew 17:21).

J.T. We might well think for a moment of the idea of fasting, but there is not much time to deal with it now. I think we ought to proceed with the main thought in our chapter, and that is, administration.

Peter is actually administering here. He is sent for, and the Spirit of God says to him, "Go with them, nothing doubting". Then we are told that as Peter preached, "the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were hearing the word". That is, Peter is administering the word, and the Holy Spirit takes the opportunity to seal those who were hearing, because it says, "the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were hearing the word".

E.N.J. Would that suggest something more than just hearing with the ear? They were receiving the word, were they not?

J.T. Quite so. It is the word logos , I understand, meaning that what is in God's mind is being opened up to us. It may mean something to be opened up later, but at the moment it was being opened up to them. The "word of God" is the same idea, and here the word of God is being listened to. It is being ministered, but it is being attended to, and the Spirit of God honours those who were listening, by falling on them.

E.N.J. There must have been a moral foundation for the Holy Spirit to come upon them forthwith as He did.

J.A.A. Cornelius said to the angel, "What is it, Lord?" so he was prepared to take account of what was said to him.

J.T. He was a subject man already, God is not bringing in an ordinary gentile; one who might be there to listen and perhaps move away. The Spirit of God is bringing in a man like Cornelius. He is honouring that state of things in the man, and he is the man that is brought in to set out the idea of the gentiles being introduced into Christianity.

A.M. Is there not a suggestion there of lovableness in the action of the Holy Spirit? Has it not been compared with the Father falling on the neck of the son in Luke 15?

J.T. It is the same word. As the father fell on the prodigal and covered him with kisses, that is the idea here; it is an energetic action of the Spirit upon the gentiles.

P.A.H. What is really involved in the thought of administration is seen in Peter here.

J.T. I do not know of anything more expressive of it, than the facts relating to Peter. If you go back to Matthew 16, you will see what the Lord had in His mind. The Lord says to him, "Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona, for flesh and blood has not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is inn the heavens", Matthew 16:17. I do not know of anything better as an example of what administration is than what is said to Peter here, that he is blessed as receiving the Father's revelation, and announcing that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God. The Lord said to him, "And I also, I say unto thee that thou art Peter, and on this rock I will build my assembly, and hades' gates shall not prevail against it. And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of the heavens; and whatsoever thou mayest bind upon the earth shall be bound in the heavens; and whatsoever thou mayest loose on the earth shall be loosed in the heavens", Matthew 16:18,19.

P.A.H. Peter is really carrying into effect the commission the Lord committed to him.

J.T. He, of course, has to be fitted for it, and he is in the things that are mentioned. Verses 46,47 say, "Then Peter answered, Can any one forbid water that these should not be baptised, who have received the Holy Spirit as we also did? And he commanded them to be baptised in the name of the Lord". Well, there it is, the idea of administration actually brought about in Peter.

E.N.J. In Matthew 16, binding and loosing are mentioned, but Peter is here fully occupied with the loosing.

P.R.P. Is it important to take account of the special place the Holy Spirit has in all this, first of all in speaking to Peter, and then also as to falling upon these men? Peter waits till he gets this word from the Spirit, and then also in relation to the results, he moves when the Holy Spirit falls upon these men.

J.T. Yes, showing that the Spirit is acting with Peter.

E.N.J. Is verse 47 also instructive, inasmuch as Peter would have the brethren to move with him? "Can any one forbid water ... ?" He would have the brethren to move intelligently with him in the matter.

J.S.P. The truth of baptism had to come in in relation to the gentiles, had it not?

J.T. Yes, and Peter commands it too. We have to compare the baptismal formula in Matthew 28 with this, and we will get instruction if we do, but here it is by itself. That is, Peter commands baptism.

A.M. Peter took certain men with him. This is such an important matter that the idea of witness enters into it.

J.T. It is appropriate that he should take so many because it was one of the most important occurrences, up till this time, the introduction of the gentiles.

A.M. He makes use of the six men later when he had to stand his ground against the elements of legality.

J.T. You get that in the next chapter. All these things are important, and especially in Peter's administration, because Matthew makes much of Peter. He says "First ... Peter", and so now Peter is fully honoured in what he is doing. He is called blessed, and he has the keys, and he knows what to say here. Cornelius would have worshipped Peter, which is a matter to note too. He fell down to worship him, and Peter says, "Rise up: I myself

also am a man Acts 10:26". He went into the house with Cornelius, talking with him, so as to establish mutual feeling between the gentiles and the Jews, talking to one another. We do not hold aloof from one another. We are united closely and talk to one another. "They that feared the Lord spake often one to another", (Malachi 3:16).

E.N.J. Would you say a word as to verse 48? He commanded them to be baptised in the name of the Lord. Is it that the act is done in the name of the Lord? You spoke of the baptismal formula at the end of Matthew; that would also be used, but whatsoever ye do in word or deed, all is to be done in the name of the Lord Jesus.

J.T. I think the formula of Matthew 28 is the one to use. That is what I would regard as the full baptismal formula. We baptise to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, the full divine thought. The whole Godhead is brought into it; that is to say, Christianity is established as brought in under the Godhead; the full authority of the Godhead is brought to bear on us in our baptism.

E.N.J. It says, "baptising them to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit Matthew 28:19". Now in our scripture it says, "He commanded them to be baptised in the name of the Lord". I wondered if that was attached to the act that we do, whatever we do being in the name of the Lord.

J.T. Well, I think baptising to is right, because it is what we are introduced into. In is a question of power. "In the name of the Lord" implies power in what has been done, but to indicates what we are introduced into, and I believe the baptismal formula in Matthew 28 is the one properly to be used by us. Peter was an apostle, and could say "in the name", but it was simply a question of power.

J.S.P. Would it bring in the thought of authority here?

J.T. Well, it does, because he commands. We would not do that. We use the formula of Matthew 28.

J.S.P. I was thinking "in the name of the Lord" would bring us under the authority of the Lord in that way.

J.T. Well, it does. But in there implies power. The thing is done in power.

A.M. The twelve men in Acts 19 were baptised to the name of the Lord Jesus.

J.T. Well, that would be the same as Matthew 28. It is what you are introduced into.

A.M. It would be included in Matthew 28?

J.T. It would. Our position is that we are introduced into Christianity or the assembly in the formula of Matthew 28. Any one of the apostles' could command "in the name", but we do not do that. We are simple about it, and use the formulae of Matthew 28, bringing in the whole of the Godhead, and establishing Christianity as in the name of the Godhead.

E.N.J. The apostle Paul brings in "the name of our Lord Jesus Christ" in 1 Corinthians 5:4. I was wondering whether we should act in that name.

J.T. The word there in 1 Corinthians 5:4,5 is: "to deliver, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ (ye and my spirit being gathered together, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ), him that has so wrought this: to deliver him, I say, being such, to Satan for destruction of the flesh". You can see how different that is from what we are dealing with. We are dealing now with what souls are brought into, whereas in the passage you read it is that one is excommunicated, delivered unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh. It is a question of the power of our Lord Jesus Christ.

E.N.J. That is really what was in mind, that

there is power in the name, and it is used in relation to what we do.

J.T. Quite so. Then in the latter part of the chapter they are told to remove that wicked person from among themselves. That is, the saints have power to do that, and they are doing it in their own power, so to speak; whereas the first reference is t delivering to Satan in the name and with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ.

THE BEGINNING AND CLIMAX OF THE TESTIMONY

Acts 1:1 - 15; Acts 20:7 - 12

J.T. As we proceed with these scriptures, I believe we shall see that the first treats of the beginning of things just immediately before Pentecost, and the second, that is chapter 20, affords information as to the testimony of God as it reached its climax. Chapter 20 is a love chapter; it begins with love, and ends with love, and there is love at the middle. So that we are at the very zenith of the testimony in that sense. The first thing to be noted is that attention is called to the Lord. It is said, "I composed the first discourse, O Theophilus, concerning all things which Jesus began both to do and to teach, until that day in which, having by the Holy Spirit charged the apostles whom he had chosen, he was taken up; to whom also he presented himself living, after he had suffered". So that we have here the very beginning of things after the Lord had risen. Then in verse 4 we have something that should be compared carefully with chapter 20; that is the idea of assembling. The Lord assembled with the apostles. It says, "being assembled with them, commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to await the promise of the Father, which said he ye have heard of me". That is to say, after the thought of His presentation of Himself to them in life, He assembled with them; and what is to be observed is that the word "assembled" precedes the breaking of bread in chapter 20. But here the Lord is with them Himself; He assembled with them, but there is no breaking of bread, whereas in chapter 20 the writer says, "And the first day of the week, we being assembled to break bread". The assembling in chapter 20 has

the breaking of bread, in view, but there was no breaking of bread while the Lord was on earth, even after He rose.

R.P. In that connection is it peculiarly linked with Paul's ministry?

J.T. It is in chapter 20, but not in chapter 1. There was no breaking of bread while the Lord was here; it is after He went to heaven; in fact, not only after He went to heaven, but not till the Spirit had come down is the idea of the breaking of bread mentioned. We have to go by what is written. In the second chapter we have the breaking of bread, it is mentioned twice, but only after the Lord went to heaven and the Spirit came down; and then it is mentioned again in chapter 20.

E.N.J. Would this be something to take account of as fundamental? That is to say, they were assembled, and the Lord, beginning to speak, commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem. We look to the Lord to say something to us as assembled.

J.T. The great thought to have before us is assembling, and we have to be taught to assemble. It is not simply that we have so many persons in a certain place at one time, and that they do something, but the idea of assembling is mentioned before anything is done. So we have to learn how to assemble.

A.M. Does that enter into the charge that was given, by the Holy Spirit, to the apostles? I was thinking of the Holy Spirit being necessary for us to understand the matter of assembling. It is not just a natural movement, it is a spiritual movement that is in mind, and we need this power if it is to be effective.

J.T. What we have here is not a question of the Spirit's teaching, but the Lord Himself being assembled with them, He commanded them not to depart

from Jerusalem; but it is the Lord Himself by example teaching them how to assemble.

A.M. Would not the apostles carry on the charge? Paul, for instance, brings out the idea of the charge.

J.T. He did; but it seems we might well keep to what is written here, so as to see how the Lord had the thought of assembling in His own mind. Of course, He charged the apostles, but then this thought as to assembling is additional. Being assembled with them He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem.

L.P.M. Did this matter of learning to assemble enter into 1 Corinthians 11:18: "For first, when ye come together in assembly"?

J.T. Yes, it is alluded to there, and it was a right thing to do, but they were doing wrong things; which is another thing to be noticed.

L.P.M. The need of learning to assemble seems to be at the very outset of what you have in mind in regard to the Lord's supper. The first thing is how to assemble.

J.T. Showing that it is not simply that we have a ritual; we cannot just say we have that, yet there must be something of the kind, because everything has to be done in order. If we go by Luke, we have the word 'method'. Things had to be done methodically, but not in the sense of ritual, except following what the Lord did Himself. It is very instructive to follow the details of what the Lord did Himself in any given matter.

E.T. Is this, in Acts 1, the right foundation in an educational way, and in Acts 20, where we read, "we being assembled", we see that the lesson had been learned and taken on?

J.T. That is it. It had long been learned; the brethren had been doing this for a long time, and now in Acts 20 the first day of the week comes and Paul has arrived; he too had to do with it.

R.G.W. Does Hebrews show that this thought of assembling is to be continued right through, "Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together" (Hebrews 10:25)?

J.T. Just so. It is not simply coming together, but assembling in view of the breaking of bread.

E.N.J. Is there something required with each one of us in order that we might be able to assemble? I was thinking of our walk during the week, and as to whether we are disciples, and brethren one of another.

J.T. Well, it is a question as to whether the idea of each other is before us, because we are so apt to be governed severally by local matters, home matters, our own affairs, and neglect the idea of assembling, which refers to the Lord and His order of things, in view of the assembling and the breaking of bread. Perhaps we think less of each other than we should. We may despise the idea of each other , what the first day of the week begins with, what the Lord begins with on it, and then what we begin with. We might say we begin with the Lord, but it is not so. The Lord begins with the disciples, and He would have us, too, to begin with each other, because it is a question of love, and we are to be taught how to love, not simply to love one another, but loving each other in the assembly.

E.N.J. Aaron is called "the Levite", and in Exodus 4 we are given the details as to the way in which God had been dealing with Moses separately, but when they come together there is an affinity, because of the work of God in each. It says that, when they met, Aaron kissed Moses.

J.T. Yes, it was a love matter. It is not only that Jehovah says to Moses, "Is not Aaron the Levite thy brother?", Exodus 4:14. That is something we have to notice, that the idea of levitical service begins with Aaron. He is called definitely "the Levite", not simply a Levite. He was characteristically that.

Jehovah says to Moses, "He goeth out to meet thee", Exodus 4:14. As if God would put it into the heart of Moses to love Aaron, and He put it into the heart of Aaron to love Moses, because they were two leading servants, and it is most important that all the servants should love one another.

J.M. Does your thought as to assembling involve that we embrace one another in affection, and in the relationship that we are now brought into?

J.T. We not only greet one another in a formal way when we meet at the place of meeting, but there is really love, and we know each other's affairs. Then, of course, the Lord is coming in; He has promised to, and He will, and it is a question as to whom He is to come to. He is concerned about that, as to how we meet each other, and how He finds us. On the first day of the week, the whole day, as it were, He is on the alert for His people, because it is the day of meeting. It is the first day of the week according to John 20, where it is mentioned twice.

J.McN. Is the power of the Spirit available in view of assembling? When the Lord left them in Luke 24 He said they were to abide in Jerusalem until they were clothed with power from on high.

J.T. Just so. It is said in that chapter that they were in the temple praising and blessing God. That might be very good, but then the temple is not to continue as a meeting place. We have to learn to meet in the house instead of the temple, and that is what you get in Acts 2. They met in the house, which is a matter to be observed.

E.T. I was going to ask if the liberty of sonship would be basic to this matter of assembling rightly, and what you mentioned as to the house would help in that regard?

J.T. I think it would. It is a question of how we regard each other. Gideon inquired, "What sort of men were they ... ?" and the answer was, "As thou

art, so were they; each one resembled the sons of a king", (Judges 8:18). Well, they are dignified. We have to greet each other in the light of our dignity; the Lord would have that.

P.A.H. "Salute one another with a holy kiss", (Romans 16:16) would suggest mutual respect and affection.

J.T. Just so, that saves us from corruption.

C.W. Would the passover help? The Lord said to go into the city and find a certain man, then the twelve gathered together, leading on to the breaking of bread.

J.T. Well there is order in that. But then, what they see, and what they meet, and who meets them, all enters into it. Then the climax is that the man of the house has a guest room, and the Lord asks for that room, as if He were concerned about the place of meeting, and that it has to be suitable. It is a guest room. That raises the whole question as to our meeting rooms. What kind of meeting rooms have we? Are they any kind of meeting rooms, and is there any thought as to what is suitable?

A.E.D. Would that raise the question of hired halls that may be used?

J.T. Yes, especially picture shows and theatres; things that are not suitable and are polluted in themselves. So it raises the whole question of meeting rooms and what is suitable for the brethren to meet in, and many other such things come into the mind, and the Lord had them in His mind when He sent the two disciples to prepare for the passover. It was a question of preparation.

E.T. At present there is a good deal of difficulty in places where the meetings are growing, and there is hiving off taking place. Building is difficult. Would you say something as to the suitability of a brother's house?

J.T. Quite good. We have scripture for that. It is mentioned in the last chapter of the first epistle

to the Corinthians, and is also mentioned in Philemon. "The assemblies of Asia salute you. Aquila and Priscilla, with the assembly in their house, salute you much in the Lord", 1 Corinthians 16:19. "And to the sister Apphia and to Archippus our fellow-soldier, and to the assembly which is in thine house", Philemon 2. So we have two mentions in which the assemblies were in houses; not subdivisions, but assemblies. There is no such word in Scripture as subdivision, it is assembly.

R.P. That helps in relation to the truth of the assembling together. We regard it as a whole, the assembly in a city. And the assembly universally is held in our minds and affections.

J.T. Quite so. It raises the whole matter of where we meet, and we have here in these two instances the idea of assembling in a brother's or sister's house, the idea of the meeting place identifying an assembly; it is called "the assembly in thine house (Philemon 2)". See also Romans 16:5. It may be a question now as to whether the word subdivision is literally right, because it is really not the idea as to the matter at all. Assembly is the word used in these two chapters.

P.A.H. It speaks of, "first, when ye come together in assembly", 1 Corinthians 11:18. That would be for the Lord's supper, would it not? So the word is "in assembly" there.

J.T. Then "the assembly" is used in 1 Corinthians 16 and in Philemon. So it is not in assembly, it is the assembly, meaning that the saints who meet in a certain house or room are called the assembly.

Ques. You have helped us in regard to the assembly in a city, and we have used the word in a convenient way as to subdivisions. You have in mind that the character of each subdivision is the character of the assembly in the city expressed in that part of it?

J.T. That is the idea. Instead of the word 'subdivision', it is the word 'assembly', as if the Lord would dignify the place where the saints meet, because He comes to where they are. He came to where the disciples were. That is the point that He makes.

L.P.M. That does not disturb at all our activities in the light of the assembly in the city, and the administration and all that.

J.T. It does not at all; it is just a question of the use of a word, and whether the word is correct.

L.P.M. Your thought is that if difficulties seem insuperable as to getting a suitable public building, rather than remain in large numbers, if it can be arranged, the brethren would be better to meet in a brother's house?

J.T. Well, apparently, if you go by the two passages we have read.

L.P.M. I think that helps us.

J.T. I think what ought to help us all round is getting accurate terms. God begins with accuracy; that is to say, He told Adam to name the creatures, and He did not alter any name that Adam gave any creature, but just accepted it, and I believe the Lord has the same respect for us as to the names we use.

A.E.D. Is that the beauty of the thing in Acts 20, that the same word is used as is used by the Lord, "the upper room where we were assembled"? Would you say something in that regard as to that expression, and the fact that Paul is referred to in Acts 20 as being in the third story? I was thinking of this matter of where the Lord comes, and the need for all that attaches to the place being in accord with the Lord's presence, so that not only the building, but the way the saints sit, and how we conduct ourselves, bears on it.

J.T. I would go with all that.

L.P.M. The idea of elevation is clearly in mind.

It is not on a level with the street. It is not even the second, story; it is the third story, and the upper room.

J.T. Just so, the upper room is not on the level of the street, and it is not the temple. Sometimes we have positives to refute negatives, and it is said that the disciples were continually in the temple praising and blessing God, but they were to stop doing that; that was to come to an end, and the thought was that it was to be in the upper room, and that is where they are seen in Acts 1.

A.E.D. Is it to bring out the uniqueness of what there is in this dispensation, and the way things have become degraded in Christendom? Are we to move away from the spirit of that in our minds and move in the light of what was at the beginning?

J.T. I think that is good, to get away from hackneyed terms that have the tinge of the world in them, and get back as nearly as possible to what was in the beginning, because that is the point, both as to the beginning of creation, and the beginning of the assembly that is mentioned specially; John's gospel, for instance.

E.N.J. So the Lord in speaking of the matter of divorce said, "But from the beginning it was not so", (Matthew 19:8).

J.T. Just so. It had been brought in because of their hardness of heart; the Lord said, 'It was not so from the beginning'. Well, perhaps we may now return to the chapter, having said all this. I would be glad if the brethren will be ready to consider what has been said as to subdivisions and other such terms that are not exactly scriptural.

E.T. When a thing emerges in its true character, we are justified in naming it, but we have been diffident in using the word 'assembly' on account of the public breakdown.

J.T. Well, there is something in that; I am sure

we should consider that point, only it is just as well to deal now with what we began with, that is to say, the names that scripture authorises, and one of them is assembling, or assembly. Then the upper room, which is a scriptural name, and so in Acts 20 we have, "We being assembled to break bread". That is to say the idea of the breaking of bread is preceded by the idea of assembling.

P.B.P. Would you say a word as to the distinction you have made as to loving one another individually and loving the brethren as assembled?

J.T. Well, I think that is something to think of. We meet each other as one person with another, but is that person an assembly person? Does he belong to the assembly? Is he characteristically an assembled person? Because in the book of Acts the persecution was in regard to the assembly and those who were of the assembly. Therefore it was a reproach to be of the assembly, whereas it is really an honour to belong to it.

F.R.G. Is your suggestion that we might speak of, say, the assembly at Milton? I was thinking in relation to letters of commendation in regard to brethren moving about.

J.T. Well, it is rather 'The saints assembling at so-and-so'. I think that is quite right, because the word 'saints' is a dignified word, and we assemble at a certain place. It is only a question of identifying the place where the saints are.

F.R.G. We have rather reserved the thought of assembly to the city, the saints breaking bread in the city of Brisbane, but you think that we should be at liberty to speak of the assembly in Milton or elsewhere?

J.T. I think the word 'saints' is what has been customary in letters of commendation, and, of course, letter of commendation is the very term used in the Scriptures, and the letter is couched in the terms of

Scripture, and signed by a certain one who is known. That is about all that is needed, I would think. If anything else be said, the word 'assembly' could be used, only in a modified way, because it is scriptural.

R.P. I think the thought of the subdivision has been mentioned to preserve the thought of the assembly being an entity in a city, but you are encouraging us to regard the assembly and the saints in their dignity.

J.T. Perhaps we are dwelling too long on these points, because we have very limited time. The word 'subdivision' certainly does not agree with the word 'assembly', or the meeting together of the saints either. We ought to keep the dignity attaching to the saints.

L.P.M. So that you have the thought of the character of this great entity in any place, the saints are in that character. Would that be right?

J.T. That was the idea in the letter to Philemon, and also in 1 Corinthians 16. It is just that the brethren might have a matter of the kind before us in a fluid sort of way, and not fix it as a permanent term or name, but to just give the idea that will preserve us from any worldly or human tinge, and keep us as nearly as possible to the terms that Scripture uses.

L.P.M. Is the assembling of the saints prior to the service of God like the tabernacle being set up before the service?

J.T. Very good; that would preserve the dignity, that it is not simply a negative thought. The word 'subdivision' is not right, because we do not divide the assembly; it is not our part to divide it. The idea is that it is a company of Christians, and that should be carried through. It is a company of saints meeting in a certain place, and we are commending someone to them in love. That is about all.

E.N.J. So we should think of our halls in the various parts of any city as the place where the saints are accustomed to break bread.

J.T. That is the idea, according to the word used as to Philippi, "where prayer was wont to be made (Acts 16:13)". It was by a riverside.

W.L.W. One very important meeting is the care meeting. How do we get on about that designation? Does God honour that?

J.T. I think that is very good. The very word "care" is used in regard to an elder: "How shall he take care of the assembly of God?" It is a question of caring for the assembly.

L.P.M. It is really a meeting of those persons who exercise care, is it not?

J.T. The term 'care meeting' may be too hackneyed. It is the meeting for the care of the saints, to take care of the assembly of God. That is the term used, so that the dignity of the thing is preserved.

L.P.M. Do you wish to say something in regard to Acts 20 as to the service, the saints being assembled?

J.T. Well, just to point out that at the first assembling, the Lord Himself was there, and there was no breaking of bread, showing that the breaking of bread is contingent on His being away, whereas in Acts 20 the word is, "the first day of the week, we being assembled to break bread". Now you see how the idea of the first day of the week is continued. It is found also in 1 Corinthians. So here, as they were assembled, Paul discourses to them, about to depart on the morrow. You see the dignity of all that. We have two words used. One would refer to a discourse, an address as we might say, and the other to a reading meeting, or to a conversational meeting. Two words are used in that chapter, and these are all very important matters in regard to dignity and spirituality. It is important to use right

spiritual terms in our conversations together, because the Scripture says, "they that feared the Lord spake often one to another", (Malachi 3:16). They must have spoken something, and the point is, if we are applying it to assembly matters, the terms we use ought to be properly given. The names ought to be properly and spiritually given. Then to bring out the difference, Acts 20 refers to the actual breaking of bread, as you might say, in the full thought of it as known amongst us today, known amongst them in the beginning after the Spirit came.

D.H.B. Is there a link with the first chapter, where they were told to wait until the Spirit came, so that in chapter 20 they are moving on spiritual ground?

J.T. That is to say the Spirit is there and the ministry is proceeding. Paul discourses. Two words are used as to current ministry. The first is a discourse and the second is a conversational matter, and we carry on these two things now, and we are entitled to do it and keep to it.

R.P. Has Paul's discourse a dispensational bearing, authoritative as governing the assembly's history here, and the truth is worked out in a conversational way amongst the brethren?

J.T. There must have been something that he would like to correct and enlarge upon, whereas the conversational word is used later, and it would mean what they might wish to say to one another in detail.

P.A.H. You were saying that the discourse has continued ever since, the same as the conversational setting. Paul discoursed at length, possibly having a great bearing on the service of God, and that has continued to our day?

J.T. You could not just say the thing itself has continued, but the principle of the discourse has continued in what we call an address. We have

ministry meetings, which are quite intelligible and useful too. These meetings have continued.

P.A.H. I was thinking particularly that the discourse of Paul would have a bearing on the order of the service of God. They needed much instruction.

J.T. It was Paul's discourse. The idea of discoursing has continued. We have the ministry meetings: "Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge (1 Corinthians 14:29)". That is to say, we ought not to have more than three addresses in one ministry meeting.

A.E.D. Might I ask why the thought of eating is added; "having broken the bread, and eaten?"

J.T. I think to show that the full thought of the Lord's supper is carried through. It might be distorted in what is current today among the sects, but the proper thing is to break the bread. The Lord gave thanks and broke the bread, and then it was eaten. It was given to the disciples to eat. The full thought of the Lord's supper should be there. The eating should be there; it is a question of eating as well as breaking the bread.

R.P. "As often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup (1 Corinthians 11:26)".

J.T. Just so.

J.McN. It says in chapter 1, "he shewed himself". Is that peculiar to Acts 1, or is it still true as we are gathered together?

J.T. Well, it might not be just in the same form, but I think it is the idea of John 14:18, The Lord says, "I will not leave you orphans, I am coming to you". Undoubtedly when He would come, He would be seen. In the first passage we read (it is a strong word) "he presented himself". It is not simply that He was there, or near by, but He presented Himself. That is to say, He would have Himself seen or apprehended in a certain way; that was the point. He presented Himself living.

E.N.J. As assembled, that would be the supreme moment, when He presented Himself living.

J.T. Just so, that would be the supreme moment of the occasion. I do not think we get it later, it is only found there. But we do get later that He comes to us, and that is another word, and it is something we believe and expect every Lord's day. The Lord comes to us. It is a precious thing, too.

F.R.G. Would Eutychus represent one who was not really in the gain of being assembled together?

J.T. Just so. There were many lights in the upper chamber, which would allude to the persons who were there. There were about seven brethren there who accompanied Paul, and I suppose they would be the lights, each one would be a light. But then Eutychus was a young man, a boy in fact, and he was evidently looking out of the window. He was not occupied with what was current at all; he was not in the occasion really.

P.B.P. You were saying that the breaking of bread was not while the Lord was on earth. Have you something more to say as to that?

J.T. It is important to see that it is while He is absent, not while He is in heaven, although I would not deny that, but while He is absent; and while He is here too, in the sense of persecution, that He is to be remembered.

P.R.P. So that it is "until he come".

J.T. Just so. It is a question of showing His death. "Ye do shew the Lord's death till he come (1 Corinthians 11:26)".

R.P. You spoke of the Supper as being a love matter. Would the first day of the week link on with the spiritual and inward, side particularly brought out in Paul's ministry?

J.T. We had that in our meeting this morning. It was a love matter, and we were greatly helped too, in the sense of the Lord being with us. The idea of

being taught preceded it; we are taught things so as to be rightly in the assembly.

A.M. Certain features of lovableness displayed in the assembly are attractive to the Lord. I was wondering if this feature of youthfulness was not a spiritual suggestion, and a valuable one such as we see in the testimony today. The assembly should be youthful; at the very end she will not be old and worn out.

J.T. You mean the word 'youthful' as applied to Eutychus?

A.M. I was wondering if Paul saw the value of it, and so the boy was restored. "And they brought away the boy alive, and were no little comforted".

J.T. Well, it was a love matter. He enfolded him in his arms, a recovery matter. He was not in accord with the occasion. He needed to be recovered to a proper attitude, which is very important. That is why I mentioned the love matter. Eutychus could hardly be considered as representing love. He was youthful, but he was careless. But there is the possibility of his being recovered and brought back. "They brought away the boy alive". They did not leave him to himself.

W.L.W. "We being assembled". Would that be characteristically? Mention has been made of loving one another in assembly.

J.T. Well, "we being assembled" is not necessarily love, because love might be there irregularly. The word "assembled" has to be taken account of by itself. It is something to be acquired, knowing how to assemble, because the word "assembly" is taken from that, and it is the noun that governs the position of the testimony; that is, the assembly; it is included in the thought of the ministry.

W.L.W. Eutychus was out of accord; one was wondering about those who only present themselves

on the occasion, of the breaking of bread and at no other meeting.

J.T. The question is whether they do present themselves as we have it in chapter 1. It is not simply that they are there. He wants to be known in a certain attitude.

J.S.P. You were stressing the point of being together. I suppose we hardly have that in Eutychus. He was one who had another outlook, and needed the embrace of Paul. Is that right?

J.T. Quite so, and as I was saying, the proper word for 'together' is assembling.

E.N.J. We are looking for more help as to the remark as to those who only attend the morning meeting, and are not seen through the week. You have said it is a question as to whether they really assemble.

J.T. But they do not. I would just say that because the word 'prepare' should be there too. The Lord spoke of preparing, and we read of the word 'prepare' being applied to persons too (see Luke 1:17). So that if we come to the breaking of bread only on the first day of the week, and are not there on the other occasions of coming together, what can we say about that? We are just careless.

P.A.H. The assembling on the first day of the week would involve that there are other assembly matters to follow in the week. The week is complete in itself.

L.P.M. So that it says they were seven days at Troas before this took place. Paul and the others were there together.

J.T. Yes, and they were there as representative of Paul's ministry; that is to say, of the work that had been brought about by him. It is said in verse 4, "And there accompanied him as far as Asia, Sopater son of Pyrrhus, a Berean; and of Thessalonians, Aristarchus and Secundus, and Gaius and Timotheus

of Derbe, and of Asia, Tychicus and Trophimus Acts 20:4". Evidently they were representatives of Paul's work; that is to say, the very best work that was available. They were all there; it was a remarkable occasion, and this young man Eutychus was not there in spirit at all. He was at the window opening, and fell down. But there was power to restore him, which is a great matter. Paul was ready for that, too, as well as to minister.

J.McN. Is that not attractive? John speaks mouth to mouth, or face to face, but Paul embraces.

F.B.G. Does 1 Chronicles 11:1 help in regard to assembling? It says, "All Israel assembled themselves to David to Hebron saying, Behold, we are thy bone and thy flesh".

J.T. Very good, I am glad you brought that up, because it is a beautiful setting there. "Thy bone and thy flesh", showing that they recognise David, typically Christ. How beautifully it fits in with what we are saying!

R.P. In Acts 20 the saints were able to move forward to what was specifically in mind. "We being assembled to break bread". That is what was in mind.

J.T. Just so. That was in mind in comparing the two passages, because comparisons are of great value in the interpretation of Scripture, and the use of Scripture in ministry. The two scriptures could be usefully and profitably compared. Acts 20 refers to the real situation as to the ministry and continuance of the service of God at that time. It was at the height of Paul's ministry. The work was going on; Paul's services were going on, and the evidences of his testimony and work were with him; they accompanied him.

A.E.D. They no doubt had part in the discourse and helped forward what Paul would bring out.

J.T. Well, I do not know if they did, because it

was Paul's action. It was a discourse of Paul; it was not a Bible reading. We noticed there was a conversational matter at the end of the chapter, but the discourse was wholly Paul's.

A.E.D. I meant in the long speaking. They would have part in it, and they would he a model for us.

J.T. I am sure they had a good time, even although it was very late towards daybreak, showing how in the early days the brethren were ready to sacrifice to be there.

CAST OUT

John 9:1 - 12,35 - 41

J.T. What is in mind is to call attention to being cast out. The thought is to connect what John 9 teaches with the first epistle of Peter, in order to enlarge on the subject: "Because it is contained in the scripture: Behold, I lay in Zion a corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believes on him shall not be put to shame. To you therefore who believe is the preciousness; but to the disobedient, the stone which the builders cast away as worthless, this is become head of the corner", 1 Peter 2:6,7. It is thought that the record of this man in John 9 will help us to see how the principle of casting away is applied by the people of this world, and how the castaway comes in for blessing, as it is said in the verses read, "Jesus heard that they had cast him out, and having found him, he said to him, Thou, dost thou believe on the Son of God? He answered and said, And who is he, Lord, that I may believe on him? And Jesus said to him, Thou hast both seen him, and he that speaks with thee is he. And he said, I believe, Lord: and he did him homage" (verses 35 - 38). So that these passages will doubtless help us to see how Christianity applies in those who have faith, and how it leads to their being cast out; and then the contrast, the truth is seen in the Lord announcing His sonship, and that the cast out one comes to know the Son of God.

A.M. Does the night that the Lord referred to in verse 4 refer to the night of His rejection?

J.T. "The night is coming, when no one can work. As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world. Having said these things, he spat on

the ground and made mud of the spittle, and put the mud, as ointment, on his eyes. And he said to him, Go, wash in the pool of Siloam, which is interpreted, Sent. He went therefore and washed, and came seeing".

A.M. Does the Lord's public rejection continue right through the long night of His absence? Had He that in mind?

J.T. I am sure that is the truth, and it fits in with John's ministry.

P.A.H. They really cast the Lord out according to the close of the previous chapter: "They took up therefore stones that they might cast them at him; but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and thus passed on", John 8:59.

J.T. So that there was a murderous attitude in the Jews, and that murderous attitude is expressed in the stones which they took up to cast at Him. This chapter, however, is of the same character, though somewhat less wicked or violent, but the same principle is expressed in both chapters.

R.P. This chapter throws into relief the works of God.

J.T. Just so, and that is not a question of sins. The disciples were occupied with what might be governmental. Was the man's being blind governmental? The Lord would show that it was not a question of governmental action, but of the works of God. The man was blind apparently from birth. We are apt to attribute governmental action when it does not really exist. God is entitled to act sovereignly at any time, not necessarily in government. What is to be observed is the way the truth works out in the believer; that is, how it works out and culminates in exposing the state of man, that it is such that he would cast the believer out. The point

for us to see is how a particular truth, as applied in a case of this kind, culminates from man's side, in the believer being cast out, and on the other side, in the Son of God being attested and believed on.

E.N.J. So that the last verses of John 20 would be in line with what you are saying: "Many other signs therefore also Jesus did before his disciples, which are not written in this book; but these are written that ye may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing ye might have life in his name", John 20:30 - 31.

J.T. It is good to bring that up, because it brings out the whole point in John's ministry: the Son of God and the consequence of believing on Him. The Lord had taken on sonship, because He was born into manhood; sonship attached to Him. The word was, "The only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him (John 1:18)". Sonship attached to Him as born here as man. He had been born into this world. "The Word became flesh", (John 1:14) meaning that the thing had been taken on; sonship had been taken on.

C.P. What distinction would you make between the titles "Son of God" and "the Son"?

J.T. Well, the title "the Son" is more a formal title. The "Son of God" is more what He has taken on as a pattern, because believers are sons too. God is bringing many sons to glory; Christ is the pattern of them all. "The Son" is a title distinct to Himself. We could not apply it to anybody else. "The Son", which is a title used of the Lord, would mean that He is the only one who can take it.

R.P. The great truth of His Person was brought out in chapter 8:58: "I am". He has come into manhood, the place to which sonship applies.

J.T. Yes. Sonship applied to Him in manhood; it did not apply to Him before He became Man. Some have said it was an eternal thought, but it is

not. It is eternal in the sense that it never ceases, but it is not eternal in the sense that it never began.

C.P. Would you view sonship in relation to the counsel and purpose of God?

J.T. Quite so. It is a title taken by the second Person, as we say, in the Godhead; so that we have it applied in Psalm 2, "Kiss the Son"; that is the term. It means that He is officially set up as Son, and therefore all come to Him. "The Father loves the Son, and has given all things to be in his hand", (John 3:85).

P.A.H. As the works of God are manifested in this man, it really reaches a climax when he is cast out. That is the issue as far as the religious world is concerned. There is no room there for the works of God. It is different from Hebrews 13, where it is a question of going forth to Him without the camp, bearing His reproach; here it is a question of being cast out.

J.T. Yes, and how the truth works out in a person who is a believer. The Lord puts it to him, "Dost thou believe on the Son of God?" and the man says, "Who is he, Lord, that I may believe on him?" That is to say he is ready to believe, it is only a question of the light coming to him, and the Lord furnishes it, saying, "Thou hast both seen him, and he that speaks with thee is he".

P.R.P. We understand that all that is of God, beginning with new birth, will not in any way fit into this world system.

J.T. No, indeed it will not; that is quite true. There is no room in this world system for the truth, beginning with the new birth; and the necessity for the new birth is to show that the world was reprobate. "The whole world lies in the wicked one", (1 John 5:19) it says. So that it is well for us to face facts, and as we sit down together on the first day of the week, the Lord's supper enters into this matter. The works of

God come up here at once, and the Lord intended that they should; and the fact that is brought out here intimates how the truth is worked out in the person who believes, how it is worked out in circumstances of extreme hostility as expressed in the words "they cast him out".

P.A.H. Will you make it a little clearer as to the Lord's supper entering into this? Is it the setting of the Supper in a scene of hostility that you have in mind?

J.T. Yes; we often speak of the whole world lying in the wicked one, and the passage in the book of Revelation referring to the cities of this world, and certain truth comes out. It is said, "Where also their Lord was crucified", and that they are "spiritually Sodom and Egypt", Revelation 11:8. That is to say, we break bread here in Brisbane, but do we allow ourselves to think that the street outside is dominated by the fact that our Lord was crucified in it? Do we accept it, that in the cities of the world we have hostility to Christ, that our Lord was crucified in them?

J.McN. It is only in the measure in which we are cast out from the system of things around that we are able to take on the truth of sonship. It was only after the man had been cast out that the Lord spoke to him as to believing on the Son of God. Is it equally applicable to us?

J.T. Just so. On the one hand we are outcasts, we have to accept that, and do well to accept it. The Lord is cast out as worthless, but on the other hand He is made Head of the corner, and Peter says "To you therefore who believe is the preciousness (1 Peter 2:7)". Preciousness is attached to Him in that sense.

R.P. A new world comes into view, a new order of things connected with the Son of God.

J.T. That is the wonderful thing that attaches

to our position. "Who is he that gets the victory over the world, but he that believes that Jesus is the Son of God?" (1 John 5:5). Overcoming the world is the point.

W.B. Those who came to David in the stronghold of Adullam answer to this, do they not?

J.T. Well, quite so. He became captain of those that came to the stronghold. What they became was derived in principle from David. He was the victorious one, and their victory would be derived from him, as now our victory is in Christ, the Son of God.

J.M. It says in verse 22, "the Jews had already agreed that if any one confessed him to be the Christ, he should be excommunicated from the synagogue John 9:22". Would that give us the atmosphere which surrounds us as partaking of the Supper?

J.T. Very good, that is what I mentioned, because where the Lord was crucified was spiritually Sodom and Egypt, and we have to face that as on His side, and therefore rejection applies to us, because they cast Him out.

R.P. Confessing Him as the Christ would overthrow what is of man, and the Son of God really brings in what is for God.

J.T. John's epistle works that out: "This is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith", 1 John 5:4. So that we need not wonder that we have difficulties from trade unionism and the like, because it is where Christ was crucified. That is the very thing that works out in His rejection and crucifixion.

J.M. Would this blindness be indicative of the whole condition of the leaders at that moment?

J.T. Just so. There is something said in the last verse which speaks of that: "If ye were blind ye would not have sin; but now ye say, We see, your sin remains". They professed to see, and therefore their sin remained. They professed to see and

rejected the Son of God and the devoted followers of the Lord Jesus. It is the apostasy applied to the Jews, and the same thing will be seen in Christendom. The apostasy has already set in, according to 2 Thessalonians, but it has not been completed or perfected.

R.P. They were sinning against light, whereas we see progressive movement in this man in John.

J.T. That just comes to the point we should deal with specifically, and that is what he said to his neighbours in the way of confession, and then what he said to the Jews. To the neighbours he said, "It is I". And they said, "How have thine eyes been opened? He answered and said, A man called Jesus made mud and anointed mine eyes, and said to me, Go to Siloam and wash: and having gone and washed, I saw". Then they bring him to the Pharisees, and "the Pharisees therefore also again asked him how he received his sight. And he said to them, He put mud upon mine eyes, and I washed, and I see John 9:15". That is to say, what he said to the neighbours was, "A man called Jesus made mud and anointed mine eyes, and ... I saw". He puts it in the past tense. But to the Pharisees it is the present tense: "I washed, and I see". He is an avowed follower of Christ, and what has happened is in the present tense. His eyes are opened.

A.M. Is the opening of eyes needed not only to see the Lord who He is, but where He is? I was thinking we need to see Him as He is, as the Son of God, and where He is, the position He has taken up. Is that involved in it? There is a position with which He links on here in this scene, not so much where He is in heaven, but a position where He is to be found here.

J.T. Well, I think we would be glad if you would enlarge on that, because it leads up to something very important.

A.M. I was thinking of the end of Hebrews: "Therefore let us go forth to him" -- that is the Person -- "without the camp" -- that is the position where He can be found Hebrews 13:13.

J.T. Quite so. There is a positive side of the position, for the Son of God means that He is risen from the dead. He is also "declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead", (Romans 1:4). And that is more than being cast out. We have to get the positive side of the truth.

P.A.H. The positive side is seen in the latter part we read in our chapter where the man is really attached to Christ as the Son of God. He finds a new centre, a new world in the Son of God.

J.T. So that chapter 10 is the enlarging of chapter 9, and then chapters 11 and 12 are further enlargements. That is to say it is a question of the resurrection. It is not simply that Lazarus was raised to where he had been, but Christ is raised; He is raised out of the condition in which He was. He is dead and raised out of that condition and John 11 and 12 would develop that for us. John 20, of course, is the full thought of sonship, and we are associated with Christ in that sonship.

A.M. Though Mary Magdalene was attached to the Lord personally, she had not the light of the new position until the Lord gave her the message for His own, His brethren.

J.T. Quite so; she took Him to be the gardener, but Peter and John believed. They saw and believed; that is to say they entered into the sepulchre and saw where the Lord lay, where His head and His feet had been, and the answer to all that is that He is now risen. He is with the Father.

A.M. How far would Martha's confession go? She says. "I believe that thou art the Christ, the

Son of God, who should come into the world", (John 11:27).

J.T. She went far, but she ought to have been able to say more than that. Chapters 11 and 12 bring out the truth of Christ's Person; that He must rise from the dead.

J.M. He had already said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life". (John 11:25) Had she not taken it in?

J.T. In a way she did. She went off and told her sister. In that she did well, but if we listen to Luke we would not make much of what Martha confessed. We have to come to John to get anything in regard to Martha. She was very slow in taking on the truth, she is in company with Nicodemus and others, whereas Mary took it on, according to Luke, immediately. She sat and was listening to the word of Christ. There are many who are like Martha; they take things on in measure, but they do not take on the final thought, and get to the full result. If we did not have John we should not know whether Martha was even a believer.

R.P. The man in John 9 is characteristically a believer. He said "I see".

J.T. That is the point we want to come to. We see how the thing worked out in a person who is truly a believer, how the truth worked out in his soul, leading to his being rejected by the Jews, but glorified as it were by Christ. He believes in the Son of God. "They bring him who was before blind to the Pharisees. Now it was sabbath when Jesus made the mud and opened his eyes. The Pharisees therefore also again asked him how he received his sight. And he said to them, He put mud upon mine eyes, and I washed, and I see. Some of the Pharisees therefore said. This man is not of God, for he does not keep the sabbath. Others said, How can a sinful man perform such signs? And there was a division among them. They say therefore again to the blind

man, What dost thou say of him, that he has opened thine eyes? And he said, He is a prophet. The Jews therefore did not believe concerning him that he was blind and had received sight, until they had called the parents of him that had received sight. And they asked them saying, This is your son, of whom ye say that he was born blind: how then does he now see? His parents answered them and said, We know that this is our son, and that he was born blind; but how he now sees we do not know, or who has opened his eyes we do not know. He is of age: ask him, he will speak concerning himself. His parents said these things because they feared the Jews, for the Jews had already agreed that if any one confessed him to be the Christ, he should be excommunicated from the synagogue. On this account his parents said, He is of age: ask him" (John 9:13 - 23). We can see how the man is progressing, and how he is becoming victorious in his soul by receiving the light. Then in verses 24 - 29 we shall see how the man came fully into the truth: "They called therefore a second time the man who had been blind, and said to him, Give glory to God: we know that this man is sinful. He answered therefore, If he is sinful I know not. One thing I know, that, being blind before, now I see. And they said to him again, What did he do to thee? how opened he thine eyes? He answered them, I told you already and ye did not hear: why do ye desire to hear again? do ye also wish to become his disciples? They railed at him, and said, Thou art his disciple, but we are disciples of Moses. We know that God spoke to Moses; but as to this man, we know not whence he is (John 9:24 - 29)". He is thoroughly militant now, and on the side of the truth, and able to state it. So it is an example for all of us to come into the truth, and come into the truth of the Son of God. "The man answered and said to them, Now in this is a wonderful thing, that ye do not know whence

he is, and he has opened mine eyes. But we know that God does not hear sinners; but if any one be God-fearing and do his will, him he hears. Since time was, it has not been heard that any one opened the eyes of one born blind. If this man were not of God he would be able to do nothing. They answered and said to him, Thou hast been wholly born in sins, and thou teachest us? And they cast him out" (John 9:30 - 34). He is thoroughly triumphant in contending for the truth as it came to him. And then he meets opposition, and so the remaining verses, 35 to the end, tell us how he came into sonship. He came into the light of Christ as Son, the knowledge of Christ's sonship, and then his own sonship.

P.R.P. Linking this thought on with the Supper, is it as we go through the scene of opposition here that God is able to work in our souls, and that that provides substance for the occasion of the Lord's coming to us?

J.T. I would think that fully. The Lord comes to us in His own private way, but then how do we come into things? We are bound to come into opposition if we take a stand for the truth as this man did. Christ comes to us privately, but we come to the assembly. We come into the truth of the fellowship, and into the assembly and the privileges of it; we come into contact with opposition at once, and we may as well face that because it is just what we are dealing with in these chapters we have been going over.

P.R.P. The point I was seeking help on was as to the matter of formation generally; we are developed in the scene of opposition.

J.T. Quite so, formation must take place if we are to be militant, and make us such as can stand; we go through with things, we are victorious; that comes out in John's epistle. The passage quoted from the end of John 20, speaks of the many things

that were done by the Lord that are not written in this book, "but these are written that ye may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing ye might have life in his name John 20:31". That is what is in mind in this wonderful book of John's gospel. So that chapter 20 is not only the resurrection of Christ, it is His ascension. The point was as to Mary Magdalene's message, "Go to my brethren and say to them, I ascend", not that 'I am risen', but that "I ascend to my Father and your Father, and to my Good and your God", John 20:17 It is a question of the ascension. Not 'I have ascended'; the Lord did not say that, but "I ascend", as if it were a present action.

R.P. That would enter peculiarly into the service of God, would it not?

J.T. That is just the point on the first day of the week. According to Ephesians, we are raised up together, and made to sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus (Ephesians 2:6).

P.A.H. This understanding then of the Son of God seems to be reserved for the cast out ones.

J.T. That is just what I thought we would come to this afternoon. We might say the Lord knew that he was cast out, but then the Lord takes the ground of hearing, and acting on what He hears. That is the point in verse 35: "Jesus heard that they had cast him out", as if the Lord is saying, 'I know all that happens amongst the brethren, and I am with them'. That is the very thing He is saying to everyone in this city at the present time. The Lord knows what we are going through, but He says, 'I am with you, and you are going to be victorious!' We shall be victorious in suffering.

C.T.McC. Is His being with the rejected ones, in the power of resurrection?

J.T. Very good; being with Christ. That is our position, we are with Him, we are publicly with Him.

He comes to us secretly now; when He comes for us presently, He will come openly; although one would be somewhat concerned that the whole truth should be told as to the Lord's coming for us; still, He comes for us publicly in a sense, and we are raised publicly in a sense. The dead in Christ rise first. There is a real resurrection of those who are dead in Christ, but we who are alive and remain shall be changed. All these things are going to be verities, and we are to be living in hope of them, because hope is the great thing to set before our hearts: "Hope does not make ashamed, because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit which has been given to us", (Romans 5:5). So that our position is invulnerable if we go through with the truth as we see it here in John 9.

J.A.A. Romans 8:17 speaks of "Christ's joint heirs". Paul speaks of sonship before that, and then he speaks of us being "Christ's joint heirs; if indeed we suffer with him, that we may also be glorified with him Romans 8:17". Suffering comes in here, and we come into the light of sonship.

J.T. Quite so. The resurrection is to be applied to our bodies. "Awaiting adoption, that is the redemption of our body (Romans 8:23)" is the full thought of salvation.

E.N.J. This man, when he had made a clear confession as far as his light would take him at the time, was cast out. Would it be right to say that the Lord is watching for such instances, and is ready to come to us with disclosures?

J.T. That is a good way to put things, and especially in view of what we are going through in the present current exercises in this city. The Lord knows all about it. This chapter ought to encourage us, that He is standing by us, and He will see us through to the end; that is what the chapter means.

P.R.P. Would you link this thought with Daniel?

The three men in the fire, and one walking with them like unto the Son of God.

J.T. Very good. These three devoted men are mentioned about thirteen times in the chapter, showing how much heaven thought of them; and heaven is now looking on what we are going through in this city.

W.B. You have spoken of personality in the saints. Would this man in John 9 become a personality through these exercises?

J.T. That is what he is. He is one of the personalities in John's gospel, and John loves personalities. The Lord Himself uses the expression, "I Jesus", and John says, "I John". God is looking for us to develop, in personality, what heaven recognises and honours.

E.N.J. If we make a definite stand for the Lord in relation to present difficulties, it may involve some opposition from unconverted relatives in the world, as seen in the parents here; they were not willing to identify themselves with what was taking place.

J.T. Our relatives are pretty sure to be against us if we are spiritual. John's gospel brings that out. He says, "Ye, go up to this feast. I go not up to this feast, for my time is not yet fulfilled John 7:8". So we would wait the Lord's time.

R.G.W. If we are prepared to accept the principle of rejection, the Lord having had it first, the completion of the scripture in Peter is for our encouragement. Though cast away of men, He is made head of the corner by God. Does that imply there is another system in which He will be Head?

J.T. That is why I read that passage in Peter. It might help if we read it again. "Behold, I lay in Zion a corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believes on him shall not be put to shame. To you therefore who believe is the preciousness; but to the disobedient, the stone which the builders cast away

as worthless, this is become head of the corner, and a stone of stumbling and rock of offence", 1 Peter 2:6 - 8. I think the brethren will all see that these passages, John 9 and 1 Peter 2, speak for themselves as to where we are, and what encouragement there is, that we may stand fast in what is true, and stand to right principles, and the Lord will not forsake us. He will be with us and favour us, so that we will not lose anything. We may feel that we are losing physical things, but we will gain spiritually, I am certain of it.

J.S.P. What we get here in verse 6 would be fundamental, would it not, for our souls? "Because it is contained in the scripture: Behold, I lay in Zion a corner stone, elect, precious ... To you therefore who believe is the preciousness 1 Peter 2:6,7".

J.T. How wonderful that is! To those who believe is the preciousness.

A.M. Would it apply, not only to the Son of God personally, but to the glorious system?

J.T. I would say that. The idea of the system should be always brought in, because that is the point of everything in the epistles, the system that God has set up, with Christ as the Head of it, and the Holy Spirit down here maintaining it in power.

J.A.A. So that there is the setting forth of "the excellencies of him who has called you out of darkness to his wonderful light", (1 Peter 2:9).

J.T. These thoughts of Peter's are very striking, and when we come to the second epistle, we will find that one thing leads on to another; so the whole structure is built up in Peter's second epistle, so that we are stabilised in coming to the system.

J.S.P. So that if any of us come into rejection, we have the truth of this in our own souls, and it would encourage us.

J.T. Then it is not only that the Person of Christ may be rejected, but there is the preciousness. That

is what He is characteristically, what is worked out by the Spirit in us, the preciousness. "To you therefore who believe is the preciousness (1 Peter 2:7)".

E.N.J. Peter takes account of sovereignty in our section: "Behold, I lay in Zion a corner stone, 1 Peter 2:6" that would be sovereign mercy.

J.T. So that the corner stone is not simply something built on the principle of a square, but round the corner; the corner is perfected, and whatever pressure may come, there is power to support it. That is the idea of a corner.

THE LORD'S SUPPER (1)

1 Corinthians 11:17 - 34

J.T. The subject of the Lord's supper is taken up at this time according to what it means as the inauguration or beginning of the service of God. It is Paul's account of the Lord's supper, of its inauguration. The worship of God did not begin with Christianity; it was inaugurated in the Old Testament; it has come down to us, in that way, and although the Lord's supper is mentioned in the synoptic gospels and in the Acts and elsewhere, yet it is formally introduced in this chapter as the beginning of the service of God, the beginning of it. Thus brethren rightly have it on the first day of the week, for the book of Acts tells us that that was the custom in the early days, after Pentecost, that they came together on the first day of the week to break bread. The three synoptic gospels contain it, John does not; and what is seen in Matthew, Mark, and Luke is that the twelve were with the Lord when He inaugurated the Supper. The facts indicate that the twelve were formally there to be the Lord's witnesses. Matthew, Mark, and Luke mention it so that there can be no question as to testimony as to it.

Much was said and written about it at the time of the Reformation, which somewhat beclouded it, especially Luther's ministry; but since that time the truth of it has been opened up in a very peculiar and full way; and it is clear that the Lord intended that it should be established in the presence of His own witnesses, His chosen witnesses. So the synoptic gospels afford testimony from the apostles and others who wrote the account of the Lord's ministry. It is thought, therefore, that at this time we should look into it from these points of view. And of course, one

is hopeful that the brethren will speak freely as to it, because it has become, I might say, a burning question among the saints for many years, almost from the time of the revival, but particularly during the past twenty-five years.

P.A.H. Has Paul the final word as to this matter from the Lord?

J.T. Yes; that is just what I had in mind, that we might see that it is his word. We know from his letters, besides this one, that he was the minister of the assembly peculiarly; and of course, the ministry of the assembly involves the Lord's supper, not only because of its own value, but because of its importance as giving a lead to the service of God, and opening up the whole thought of the service of God.

R.P. Would Paul link on with what is historical, and give added new features in regard to the assembly position?

J.T. Well, I think so; we should not establish the facts properly from the synoptic gospels, or even from the Acts. They are established in these particular letters of Paul's, the first and second epistles to Corinth; and nothing can be more important than that the saints now should understand that Paul is the minister of the assembly. Colossians especially deals with it, the brethren will remember. It is stated in the first chapter of that epistle "Now, I rejoice in sufferings for you, and I fill up that which is behind of the tribulations of Christ in my flesh, for his body, which is the assembly; of which I became minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given me towards you to complete the word of God, the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but has now been made manifest to his saints", Colossians 1:24 - 26.

It is just to bring out the testimony of Paul in its varied features as to this great matter, the service of God, and that this service is in the assembly, which

is the vessel in which God is operating. So in chapter 12 of the Corinthian epistle it says "so also is the Christ", that is to say "the Christ", truly the saints, as the vessel of testimony. Paul says, "Now, I rejoice in sufferings for you, and I fill up that which is behind of the tribulations of Christ in my flesh, for his body, which is the assembly; of which I became minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given me towards you to complete the word of God, the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but has now been made manifest to his saints; to whom God would make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the nations, which is Christ in you the hope of glory: whom we announce, admonishing every man, and teaching every man, in all wisdom, to the end that we may present every man perfect in Christ (Colossians 1:24 - 28)". These verses fully confirm what has been said as to the ministry of Paul being conclusive and final in all matters, but particularly in matters relative to the assembly.

P.A.H. When you speak of the inauguration of the service of God at the Supper, is it through that means that the Lord secures His place in the midst of His own, and then the service proceeds? Is that the thought?

J.T. I would say that is just the point, His own place in the midst; and that is what He promises to us in John, because we get from John what was intended to run down the whole dispensation. Hence we have the great fact of the Spirit coming, in John 14:18, and then He says, "I will not leave you orphans, I am coming to you", meaning that the Lord did not intend to leave them to their own resources, but that the Spirit having come. He also would come to them. I believe that is what enters into the present time, and the peculiar way the ministry has come forward in regard to the Lord's supper. The Lord

comes to us, and the synoptic gospels deal with the general facts of the Lord's ministry, but Paul deals with what is special as relating to the assembly. So that the service of God comes down to us from the Old Testament, but it comes down to us through the twelve apostles. So those who were converted through Peter's ministry persevered in the teaching and fellowship of the apostles, and in the breaking of bread and in prayers. That is the general fact as to the twelve.

Then with the incoming of Paul, we have these special epistles, opening up the truth as to the assembly, bringing forward himself as the minister of it, so that we have things firmly in our hands in that way. It seems to me that the brethren should be thoroughly alive to the present time, because the imminence of the Lord's coming is apparent, and the Lord would have the truth of His supper entered into fully, so that we might be fit to take on the great service that is for us in the millennium according to Ephesians 2, in which it is said that the assembly is a habitation of God in Spirit, and increases to a holy temple in the Lord; that is, the means by which God will disclose His mind and the order of His service in the millennial day.

E.N.J. Does what you have referred to in relation to the saints persevering in the teaching and fellowship of the apostles, and the breaking of bread and prayers, help us to see that we cannot be negligent about the Supper, but things are to be taken up in an orderly way? It is in disorder elsewhere.

J.T. That is just the thing, that the idea of three thousand converts in the second chapter was to show what God could bring about, the Spirit having come; and then to show that the result was characterised by the perseverance of the converts in the teaching and fellowship of the apostles, meaning that the apostles were the Lord's own authorised or chosen

witnesses to the dispensation, to what He was going to set out in the dispensation; and hence we have the teaching and fellowship of the apostles, but not only that, the breaking of bread and prayers, as if the service of God is formally spoken of, and that it is now in the hands of the twelve. But later it is clear that it was enlarged on, and Paul was brought in as a special witness and servant of the dispensation.

E.N.J. So that it would be particularly painful to the apostle Paul when he heard of the disorder in Corinth.

J.T. Just so; it is very good to bring that up, because there is so much disorder now, and especially on this point. There has hardly been anything more controversial than the Lord's supper, especially during the time of the Reformation, and ever since too. Christendom is divided up into a hundred fragments, it may be, and the Lord's supper is partaken of by nearly all, but hardly any have the truth of it. I believe the Lord has reserved it for those who are subject to Him and recognise the Spirit, to open up through them the truth as to it, and He is constantly opening up fresh thoughts as to it.

R.P. You mentioned that the matter was greatly beclouded at the time of Luther. Does the public body still hold to the matter as set out in the time of Luther? Does not Paul's ministry help us as to the Supper, and what follows upon the Supper being taken, in our moving from what is provisional to what is eternal?

J.T. I would say, not only what the reformers had, but also what Rome has. We cannot ignore what Rome has, because Rome is the continuation publicly of the original assembly so called; not that it uses the word 'assembly'. It chooses to use the word 'church', and it is externally the representative of it, but its doom is clearly announced; because of the great responsibility it has taken on, its doom is

asserted and sure to come. God may be using it to check other things, in what He is doing, but at the same time He is reserving His rights to deal with it in the most thorough way, as the book of Revelation tells us. Nothing is more drastic than the judgments that are intended to be poured out on that system.

E.N.J. Do you feel that we should continually give thanks to God that the light of the Supper, and the meaning the Lord had in it, has been recovered to us, and particularly that it introduces the service of God?

J.T. I think it is remarkable that the Lord's day afternoons almost universally are more or less devoted to the understanding of the Lord's supper, especially if brethren are moving about in the service as especially equipped for it. We find that they often take the opportunity to seek to open up the truth of the Lord's supper.

W.J.B. In view of that, should we not have our minds ready for any adjustment that the Lord may bring before us?

J.T. I think that is right, because you hear of questions all the time about the Lord's supper, and perhaps it would be hard to get all to agree about everything; and the same is true negatively as to this subject which has been engaging us as to trade unions, that not all of those who are nominally in fellowship will agree on the full thought, and will agree to take action, to take an attitude up before God as to the truth relative to it, and I believe it is a great source of weakness amongst the saints. There should be unity as to the truth of the Lord's supper, and then as to the truth of this awful thing that is current, that is to say, trade unionism.

D.H.B. Do you think it is essential for us to judge this matter that the apostle draws attention to first of all, as to the divided state of things amongst the saints at Corinth, before we can proceed with the Supper?

J.T. And especially because this very subject is taken, up in the first chapter. I am alluding to the great damage done by the want of unity amongst the brethren now. In the first chapter of the epistle we are reading, almost immediately after the introductory remarks of the apostle, which are properly objective truth, the tenth verse begins immediately with a word of exhortation by the apostle: "Now I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all say the same thing, and that there be not among you divisions; but that ye be perfectly united in the same mind and in the same opinion. For it has been shewn to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of the house of Chloe, that there are strifes among you. But I speak of this, that each of you says, I am of Paul, and I of Apollos, and I of Cephas, and I of Christ. Is the Christ divided? Has Paul been crucified for you? or have ye been baptised unto the name of Paul?" 1 Corinthians 1:10 - 13. Then in this chapter that has been read we have again an allusion to dissension: "I hear there exist divisions among you, and I partly give credit to it. For there must also be sects among you, that the approved may become manifest among you". Not merely divisions, but sects, which is a serious matter. The apostle would bring out into the open the persons who are approved, which implies they are approved in heaven, and that is the point with us, that we should be approved of God, and that we should thus be united in the truth.

R.P. That is really a basic thought in the assembly, is it not, that we are there intelligently, and know why we are there?

J.T. And that we are all of one mind. That is, if Christianity is anything at all, it must be permeated by love. Love is the great thing according to chapter 13 of this book. One could do anything, give his body to be burned, and yet be nothing because he

has no love; so it is the greatest feature amongst us.

R.P. Would not the Supper really promote that? There is the apostles' doctrine and teaching, which is basic to fellowship, and then what flows out of the privilege side.

J.T. Just so. But then this matter of love: "By this shall all know that ye are disciples of mine, if ye have love amongst yourselves", the Lord said (John 13:35). That is the point of testimony that the Lord makes, and we cannot get on in the truth unless there is love amongst us, and the obligation recognised to be of one mind.

E.N.J. Would the exercise you have placed before us lately, as to being occupied with the love side of things on the first day of the week, be conducive to our being built up in love? We do not want to be occupied all the time with warfare.

J.T. Just so. "Love one another". That is the testimony of John, especially in his epistle, and also in his gospel, as the Lord Himself says, "By this shall all know that ye are disciples of mine, if ye have love amongst yourselves (John 13:35)". That is amongst yourselves as saints.

Ques. Did it require that the apostle set things in order at Corinth so that love might work out its way properly?

J.T. Well, it is a fact, and chapter 13 is devoted almost entirely to the subject of love.

G.W.A. Would that feature be seen also in the first verse of our chapter as following the close of the tenth chapter, "Be my imitators, even as I also am of Christ"? 1 Corinthians 11:1

J.T. Quite so. Peter did not say that, nor did John. Paul only uses these words, showing what a place he had in the Lord's mind as representative of the whole principle and spirit of Christianity. Paul is our leader.

R.P. "Yet shew I unto you a way of more surpassing excellence", (1 Corinthians 12:31).

J.T. Quite so, not simply what he was teaching, but showing; it is shown to us.

C.G.McC. In relation to loving one another, I was thinking of the Lord's own words: "This is my commandment, that ye love one another, as I have loved you", (John 15:12). The Lord has set the example: "As I have loved you".

R.P. The Supper is supremely a love matter. There may be a formal coming together for the Supper, yet Paul has to write over it, "This is not to eat the Lord's supper".

J.T. That is so, he writes a negative over it. We began with verse 17 because it had evidently the first place in his mind, not merely that they were Christians, and had believed the gospel, but the truth of their place in partaking of the Lord's supper, taking their place in the inaugural side of the truth in the service of God. That is a question of the service of God, and the order of it, and what is essential to it, namely love; and if that be not there, and conduct suitable to it, it is not the Lord's supper. That is what the apostle means. They were ostensibly there to eat the Lord's supper, but it was not really so, because of their conduct in the assembly.

W.L.W. Is that why the apostle in commencing, says, "In prescribing to you on this which I now enter on, I do not praise"? What comes to us as to the order of the Lord's supper, and the service of God, is by prescription, by commandment.

J.T. Quite so, and the things here prescribed and written to them were the commandment of the Lord, not merely the commandments, but one commandment, as if the whole thing is put under the one heading of being a commandment, making it more and more authoritative.

P.R.P. I would like to ask a little more as to

love in its working out. There is the matter of love to the brethren, and there is love to the Lord. Would you distinguish between these two aspects?

J.T. Love to the brethren, and love to the Lord? In a certain way the brethren are more of a test to us than the Lord Himself. When we sit down to partake of the Lord's supper, the first thought is the brethren. This may be questioned in many minds, but I am certain it is so. The Lord is saying to us in effect, 'What do you think of each other? Do not speak to Me of what you think of Me; what do you think of each other?' Because in truth everyone of us ought to have a judgment about everyone. Not that we are critical of each other, but it is due to the Lord that we should have a right judgment; as David said to Abigail, "Blessed be thy discernment", 1 Samuel 25:33 as if the Lord would say, 'I want you to be discerning of each other'; not to be critical exactly, but to know and understand each other.

E.N.J. Would the necessary constitution for the partaking of the Lord's supper be built up in that way, that we get on together in our exercises during the week as disciples of the Lord, and as brethren one of another?

J.T. Just so. In any company of the saints in any town, when we sit down together, leaving our houses and sitting down together to partake of the Lord's supper, the first thing normally and rightly would be "each other". Whether we are a dozen, or fifty, or one hundred, do we really love each other? because the Lord is saying to us, 'I am coming to you, but I am not coming to a divided company; I am coming for My own pleasure and My own joy'; because the point was the joy that was set before Him. That joy ought to enter into the assembly service. The Lord is active from early morning every Lord's day. He is active as it says in Psalm 19:5, "He rejoiceth as a strong man to run the race". And the

race, of course, would have in mind (if you apply it to the assembly) that He should reach the assembly. And whom does He reach? Is it a company who love one another, that He can admire as having love amongst themselves? I believe that is really what tests our whole position.

G.W.A. Is that why the challenge is raised in verse 22, "Or do ye despise the assembly of God ... ?"

J.T. Quite so, showing it is not merely a place of meeting, where the brethren meet, but where the saints are, as in John 20, "where the disciples were". There is no question of a room or a building, but where they are, and what the Lord finds if He comes to us.

Ques. In our houses we would hold the assembly as a very elevated thought. "Have ye not then houses for eating and drinking?" Would that not test us as to how we regard the saints in our homes?

J.T. Of course, house room is difficult just now. There is a great scarcity of houses in all countries. At the same time the Lord is saying to us here, "Have ye not houses to eat and to drink in?" That does not mean that every married couple has a house, but it implies that there should be a house for every family. And then the test here is as to how we carry on in the assembly, whether we behave properly. Take the children of the saints coming to the place of meeting, old and young, and those perhaps who are not breaking bread, what does the Lord's eye meet in coming in among us? Can He approve of everything? Hence the word here is "Have ye not houses to eat and to drink in?"and so forth. So that He is writing over the whole matter of this first part of the chapter, 'This is not to eat the Lord's supper, because your conduct is unsuitable'.

E.N.J. I was wondering if they were making too much of eating, and if there is a danger of our making too much of any feature of the Supper. We should be balanced and intelligent.

J.M. Would what you have drawn attention to in chapter 12 be important, "So also is the Christ"? 1 Corinthians 12:12 Christ characteristically in the saints.

J.T. That is the point. It is a remarkable passage, because as you say it is Christ characteristically: "So also is the Christ", meaning that the Spirit of God is applying the thought of "the Christ" to the saints, to the assembly as the anointed vessel.

J.M. So that we cannot overlook even the weakest, and there is to be no disunity in the body.

J.T. That is the idea, so we value one another and love one another; that is the point. Then we have here another thing which we have already touched on, the matter of sects, sectarianism. That is to say, those who think to come, as you might say, in an ecclesiastical sense, not in a business sense, not as business people, but in an ecclesiastical sense. They have an ecclesiastical distinction of their own; they have what belongs to the assembly, and yet they are keeping to themselves, and making divisions.

J.M. Schools of opinion?

J.T. Just so. I think you can see the point I am trying to make -- that we may be together in an ecclesiastical sense, having importance in our own minds in that sense, not because we are well educated people, or even having social distinction, but because we have an ecclesiastical character, and on that ground are important to each other. That is exactly what they were doing, and it was displacing love. Anything of that kind which makes us important in each other's eyes, whatever it be, tends to sectarianism, to divide us, and shut out love.

C.W.A. "Because we, being many, are one loaf, one body (1 Corinthians 10:17)". Is that the divine thought?

J.T. Quite so. We are expressing it in our

partaking of the loaf and of the cup, and there is to be no effort to make ourselves distinctive.

J.S.P. Do we get the great example of love in the Lord? Hebrews 12:2 says, "Who ... endured the cross, despising the shame". He sets aside everything for the joy that was set before Him.

J.T. How touching it is, and I believe He had the assembly in mind. Although the full thought of His joy may be in that passage, it certainly involved the joy He has now as He comes into the assembly.

J.S.P. I was thinking of our side of it. We take it on. Would it mark us characteristically?

J.T. Well, that is what we are endeavouring to say to each other now, that we might help and instruct each other as to the reality of Christianity, the dispensation we are in; and so the thing to be noted in this section is the place the word "body" has. In this chapter it is said, "I received from the Lord, that which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus, in the night in which he was delivered up, took bread, and having given thanks broke it, and said, This is my body, which is for you: this do in remembrance of me. In like manner also the cup, after having supped, saying, This cup is the new covenant in my blood". That is to say, the Lord's own body, His personal body is in mind here, and He says, It is for you. It is intended to be very touching. The Lord says, It is for you, therefore it is a question now of how we regard the Lord's own body. And then in chapter 10, we have another word about the body, that is to say, the apostle says, "I speak as to intelligent persons: do ye judge what I say 1 Corinthians 10:15". That is what I was endeavouring to say a moment ago. We have a judgment of everything; we are not to be critical of each other, but have a judgment of each one, a true judgment; so, "do ye judge what I say. The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood

of the Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion, of the body of the Christ? Because we, being many, are one loaf, one body 1 Corinthians 10:15 - 17". The word "body" here in chapter 10 refers to ourselves, that is to the saints, whereas the word in chapter 11 refers to Christ's body. It is a question of the holy feelings that are intended to affect us as to the Lord's own body, as having been into death; and it comes before us in the Supper, in the bread and in the cup.

R.P. Would you say that is peculiarly for the saints in this dispensation -- "My body, which is for you"?

J.T. Well, that is what I was thinking. It is for you. How do I take that? How do I understand it? I can more readily understand, perhaps, the saints as called the body, but how do I understand the Lord's body for me? "This is my body, which is for you". When the Lord says "for you", He means for ourselves, for the saints. What a portion we have in His body!

J.A.A. This is the body in which He suffered as on earth, is it?

J.T. I think so.. The body that Mary anointed He says, "She has beforehand anointed my body for the burial", (Mark 14:8).

R.P. Do we think of Him being in that body historically, or in the body that He is in now?

J.T. The latter. The body in which He was historically has been placed in the grave, and we speak now in a holy sense, a reverential sense, of the Lord, but His body has become changed. He is the same Person, and you might say it is the same body, but it is not just the same, because it is His body of glory; we have to understand what that means, and His body of glory is not His body in which He died. Paul says, "His body of glory (Philippians 3:21)". We are to be conformed to His body of glory.

P.A.H. And in calling the Lord to mind, we are thinking of Him as He is.

J.T. That is right, but we are brought in too. I think that He is considering us in speaking to Paul, which, of course, peculiarly enters into what we are saying. In speaking to Paul the Lord said, "Why persecutest thou me?" (Acts 9:4) It is the Lord now risen that is there. At the same time He is to be understood in the place of suffering, that He is suffering in His saints, not in His own body, but in His saints' bodies.

Ques. And is the Lord thinking of us in love as He would come to us, the saints perhaps in the suffering position, He is speaking to us there?

J.T. I think so; that is just the way we should take it on, because it would call Him to mind; surely in that spirit and sense we do that, not as He is glorified. He is not actually suffering as in glory, but He is as identified with His saints, and in His saints He is suffering; and hence when He asks to be remembered, to be recalled and borne in mind, I would say it is that He is going through the scene of sufferings with us; He is actually in it, in the sense that He comes to us.

C.T.McC. "The night in which he was delivered up" is tonight for the saints?

J.T. That is a good way to put it. So the Lord says to Paul, "Why dost thou persecute me?" (Acts 9:4) Literally Paul might say, 'I have never seen You, Lord, I am not persecuting You', but the Lord would say, 'You are doing it in My saints'.

Rem. The Supper is really in that setting. But then there is a new and spiritual interest that Paul has in mind, the body of Christ.

J.T. I would say that fully, so we may ask, 'What do they think about Christ?'People express what they think about Christ in their treatment of the saints. That is the way to look at things. The

Lord comes into a suffering position as identified with us. He is not here corporeally, He is in heaven, but He comes to us; we have to understand that spiritually.

E.N.J. "Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me", (Matthew 25:40). Is that in principle the same?

J.T. Very good.

Rem. You spoke on another occasion of the matter of appropriation, in drawing attention to chapter 10. Is it your thought that we appropriate one another first, and then we appropriate the matter of the Lord's body for us?

J.T. I think that is how it comes out. We value each other, for instance. If you take the types of the clean and unclean animals, it is a question of how we regard each other, how we appropriate each other. The saints are clean, and so are fit to be appropriated. The word 'eating' is just appropriation. That is what is meant in the type. Eating is just appropriation of the thing.

Rem. One feels that we cannot get that matter too clearly. Coming up from our houses we are appropriating one another with a view to the Lord coming in.

J.T. So that the Lord comes into an approved company that He can take account of with pleasure; we are not irksome to each other. I believe the Lord would keep on at that amongst us, so that we might be fit for translation, because translation is the great thing in mind, and the Lord intends that we should be fit for it, and we can only be fit for it actually as we appropriate what we are to each other, as He does. Our appropriation of each other should synchronise with His.

C.P. I was thinking that as we assemble together in the truth of being the body, when the Lord comes

we have already been instructed in relation to the truth.

J.T. A very good suggestion. And the Lord is stressing upon us the value of His own to Him, but at the same time to each other. He is not going to have things unequal but wants things balanced, and the balance is as between His appropriation of ourselves, and our appropriation of each other. It is a perfect balance, that is what the Lord is aiming at; so we go up to Him where He is and as He is, as John says, "When he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is", 1 John 3:2.

THE LORD'S SUPPER (2)

2 Corinthians 3:1 - 18

J.T. The eleventh chapter of the first epistle to Corinth was read last Lord's day, but we were unable to enlarge on the subject then. We think it better to go on to the second letter now to pursue our subject, that is, the Lord's supper, because the second letter is more substantial, more complete, so that it is thought we shall be able to open up the subject a little more fully. What has been remarked is of the very first importance as to the subject, because the first letter is almost entirely corrective. The second letter affords more substance and spiritual enlargement, as I hope we shall see as we proceed. The apostle had experienced much suffering and persecution before the second letter was written. He had come nigh to death, he said, but God had effected deliverance for him, and so he is now free to touch on the very fundamentals of the first epistle. The first epistle to the Corinthians is one of the most important in the whole New Testament in view of the service of God, because it is devoted in the main to that subject, but the apostle in the first epistle has almost immediately to reprove them, to enter on a course of reproof. And it may be that we all need reproof as to the principles governing the Lord's supper. The Lord's supper is celebrated nominally in perhaps a hundred ways among the sects, so-called, so that it is all the more important that we should look into it carefully, and see what the bearing of it is as seen in the second letter.

P.R.P. What did you have in mind in referring to the sufferings of the apostle?

J.T. Well, they are alluded to in the first chapter of this epistle. He said, "We do not wish you to be

ignorant, brethren, as to our tribulation which happened to us in Asia, that we were excessively pressed beyond our power, so as to despair even of living. But we ourselves had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not have our trust in ourselves, but in God who raises the dead; who has delivered us from so great a death, and does deliver; in whom we confide that he will also yet deliver" (2 Corinthians 1:8 - 10). That is what is alluded to, so that undoubtedly the apostle needed the discipline involved; not that it is seemly for us to speak of his being disciplined, but undoubtedly God foresaw the need of opening up the subject of the Lord's supper more fully, and He allowed His servant to go through this discipline, so as to be competent inwardly to take the thing up as he does in these chapters.

P.R.P. Is there a suggestion in this that to enter into Christianity substantially requires suffering?

J.T. Well, it seems so. "Unto you it is given", we are told in Philippians 1:29, "not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake". Paul speaks of filling up that which was behind of the sufferings of Christ in his flesh for His body's sake. And there are many similar passages from which we see that sufferings are essential to our being competent (even the apostles being competent) to deal with the greatness of the truth in its fulness.

E.N.J. So that verses 5 and 6 of our chapter would have that in view, "not that we are competent of ourselves to think anything as of ourselves, but our competency is of God; who has also made us competent, as ministers of the new covenant; not of letter, but of spirit", and so on.

J.T. Well, that just bears out what has been said, that sufferings are needed for us if we are to enter fully into the truth, and if we are to open it up to one another.

P.A.H. So that as to ourselves, it is needful for us to understand something of suffering to really appreciate the Supper. That is, the Supper is taken in suffering conditions.

J.T. That is why it has been thought well of late to call attention to the fact that the calling of the Lord to mind as indicated in the first letter, is not simply that He is absent from this world, but that He is actually in spirit, at least in mind and in thought, in the place of suffering; because I think at times it has been thought that the calling of the Lord to mind is just that He is away, He has gone into heaven. But I do not think that the Lord really, as it were, needs to be sympathised with, if I may use that word, but rather that He is actually here in spirit. I use the word 'in spirit' so as to make clear that the Lord is in heaven literally, but He is here in spirit, that is, with His people. When the time of calling Him to mind arrives on the first day of the week, there is opportunity to be reminded that He too Himself is still in the place of suffering; and that is illustrated in the fact that when the apostle Paul was converted, the Lord said to him, "Why persecutest thou me?" (Acts 9:4) Now the Lord is in heaven literally, but He speaks of Himself as in the place of suffering, and that Paul was causing the suffering. The Lord was not literally persecuted by Paul at that time, but He was in spirit with the brethren in their sufferings. Paul at that time, or immediately before it, was the outstanding instrument of the devil to persecute the saints, dragging men and women before tribunals, and so forth, as we learn in Acts 9. So that the Lord in spirit is in the sufferings when He asks us to call Him to mind.

C.G.McC. So that "Why persecutest thou me?" (Acts 9:4) is a present thought?

J.T. Quite so.

R.C.McC. Calling Him to mind is not historical

is it, but rather the activity amongst the saints as moving together in love?

J.T. Quite so. So that when we come to partake of the Lord's supper, whether it is in a city, a town, or even a village, we have to bear in mind that that village is essentially, if not openly, opposed to Christ. The idea of sufferings is alluded to in the book of Revelation, "Where also their Lord was crucified", Revelation 11:8. That refers to the cities of this world. So that it would be an entire mistake to assume that the Lord is in honour in this world.

E.N.J. Is the suggestion in Matthew 26 that they sang a hymn and went out to the mount of Olives, a connection between the public setting of the Supper and the commencement of the service of God?

J.T. Well, that requires a little more opening up. We should all understand what is in mind on your part.

E.N.J. I am thinking of the hostile state of things that we have been speaking about, in any village or city where the Lord's supper may be partaken of, but as we do come together in that way, have we not then the holy privilege of entering into the service of God in a united way? There is the going out, and going up to the mount of Olives. Physically we do not move from the room, but it is a spiritual upward movement to a higher side of things.

J.T. Yes, that is very good to have before us, that we do not move from the room, there is no such thought; but there is such a thought as the saints being spiritual, and even going to the extent of ecstasy, although one would hesitate to say that it could be proved that there is such experience now; but at the beginning there was, and we are entitled to treat of the dispensation as a whole, and if anything happened at the beginning, or the middle, it belonged to the dispensation, and so may be treated thus. Hence, to illustrate, in the beginning of the

dispensation as seen in Acts, the Lord appeared to His own in a corporeal sense; He was here for forty days before He went to heaven, after He rose; and in the book of Acts He is regarded, and in the first epistle to the Corinthians too, as appearing in a corporeal sense to His own. Therefore it is quite intelligible and right to say that He is to be apprehended in a corporeal sense, even although it might only be at the beginning, and not even in the times of the Reformation, nor even now, but yet the fact remains that the Lord appeared to His own in a corporeal sense. I think that is of importance to keep in mind, that the dispensation has to be taken account of in the whole matter; even if the corporeal thought be eliminated now, at any rate He appears spiritually as John 14 would teach. He said, "I will not leave you orphans, I am coming to you John 14:18". So that He comes to us at least in a spiritual sense, and is to be apprehended thus.

P.A.H. And are we able to look upon the glory of the Lord? That is, we are not looking upon His sufferings, but His glory, and that would help in the transference in our spirits and minds from the scene of suffering to that which is beyond it.

J.T. Exactly, and surely it is in keeping with the dispensation, and God is entitled, so to speak, to bring it before us, that the Lord Jesus, although He is actually and literally in heaven, yet as a divine Person, can come and go as He pleases. For instance He comes for us: "The Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first", (1 Thessalonians 4:16). That is the Lord's own action. It is not the Spirit's action, it is His own action, and we cannot say that He is sent to do it. It implies that He is at all times at liberty to have access to His brethren, to the assembly.

R.P. Is the public aspect of the Supper associated

with the thought of the Lord's coming? It is "till he come", whereas the inward and spiritual side opens the way now for a spiritual manifestation of Christ to His own. And is not that dependent upon the truth brought out by Paul? He did not know Christ here on earth. It is purely from heaven, is it not?

J.T. He said, "Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord?" (1 Corinthians 9:1). He saw Him. We know historically that he did at different places; and the Lord is asserting in all that, that He has rights, and that we must not question them. So in coming back to our chapter, that is to stress the substantiality of it, and what is in the second letter, particularly what is stressed in the third chapter we have read, because it leads up to the thought of our being changed, that we are capable of being changed. Even the Lord Himself takes the ground of capability of being changed. What I am saying may be just an open question in the minds of many that are listening to it, and therefore one would be thankful if the brethren would say what they think, because it is very important we should have these things before us now as we are drawing near to the end, and the Lord is about to come, and we should be ready for His coming.

P.A.H. Does a change in the Lord as in relation to the service of God imply a change in us correspondingly?

J.T. Well, when I say a change in the Lord, I mean He is at liberty to appear in another form, as Mark says, "He appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country", Mark 16:12. And then John tells us that the Lord is seen in judicial garb, as mentioned in the first chapter of the book of Revelation. The assembly is mentioned before He is mentioned. That is to say the assembly is seen, and the Lord in the midst of it.

So that it is a question of the Lord having the right to appear according to what He wishes, and that the assembly should be free too, that the Lord should be free to call attention to the assembly, even before He is seen there.

J.A.A. When it says, "Ye are our letter, written in our hearts, known and read of all men", is that what is substantially in the Corinthian saints now that is capable of change?

J.T. I think what the apostle means is that the Corinthians were his letter, and that it was known and read of all men. That is to say, Paul implies that he spoke constantly about the Corinthians, and that they were his letter, because he could speak of them so freely. He was full of the thought of the Corinthian saints. It was a great work, one of his greatest. The Lord spoke to him, "Fear not, ... I am with thee, ... I have much people in this city (Acts 18:10)". And I believe Paul valued the Corinthian epistle, because the Lord had much people there, and it afforded him an opportunity to bring out the various thoughts of the assembly in speaking and writing to them.

R.P. So he makes much of his ministry in the second epistle, in relation to the saints who will take on the ministry.

J.T. Yes, he makes much of them. That is the reason why he begins speaking of them. He says, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassions, and God of all encouragement; who encourages us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to encourage those who are in any tribulation whatever, through the encouragement with which we ourselves are encouraged of God", 2 Corinthians 1:3,4. Then he speaks about the yea and the amen of God's promises being in the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who had been preached by him and those with him. Then in the second

chapter he says, "Thanks be to God, who always leads us in triumph in the Christ, and makes manifest the odour of his knowledge through us in every place. For we are a sweet odour of Christ to God, in the saved and in those that perish: to the one an odour from death unto death, but to the others an odour from life unto life" (2 Corinthians 2:14 - 16). That is what I was thinking of. That the odour was in Paul, but then he links them up with him, and speaks approvingly of them in the later chapters. One is hardly able to go into the details, there is not time, but I think it is important to have these things before us, in order that we may have the Lord's supper rightly before us, and see how the second letter opens up the thing substantially, so that we should now have it substantially as we partake of it.

W.J.B. Does the reference to "looking on the glory of the Lord, with unveiled face", indicate the fact that the truth is opened to us so that we are at home in His presence?

J.T. I was thinking we would come to that, because it is really the crux of the whole matter, this third chapter. That is what he finishes with: "But we all, looking on the glory of the Lord, with unveiled face, are transformed according to the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Lord the Spirit". That is to say the Lord is here as a Spirit, the Lord is called a Spirit, and He is transforming us in that capacity. It is a question of the Lord's authority and power in bringing about the transformation, so as to have the truth of the Lord's supper substantially amongst us.

J.M. Is this to stimulate our hearts so as to enable us to move forward in all that which is so transcending? The ministry of condemnation was introduced with glory, but this ministry subsists in glory.

J.T. Yes, the first ministration, of glory, of course, is alluded to in the book of Exodus, but the apostle is showing here that the real thing is now what he had. It was a question of the Holy Spirit, and the Lord Himself is viewed as a Spirit. He is called "the Lord the Spirit", and He does the transforming. It has often been referred to as a metamorphosis, a real transformation, a change in the state of the saints through this ministry.

J.McN. Is it the idea of our being transformed as we behold the Lord in His movement from glory to glory in the service?

J.T. That is right; that is what I understand, and that is the reason why I have endeavoured to bring out that it is a real matter, it is a real change that comes about in the saints.

P.A.H. Would Mary illustrate this, in that she turned round? The Lord was indicating an ascending line, and a change in Him in a sense is reflected in Mary, she turned right round. There was a change in her.

J.T. Very good. When He called her "Mary".

C.G.McC. Would you help us with regard to the first few words in that verse: "We all"? What is covered by that?

J.T. That is to say the application of the truth here is universal. Although he is speaking directly to the Corinthians, the application of the truth is universal, and it ought to work out in our first days, that is, the beginning of every week, as the Lord's supper is celebrated; it is a question of whether we are ready for the change.

W.J.B. The veil being upon our hearts would hinder us entering into these things. "When Moses is read", it says, "the veil lies upon their heart". We need that veil to be removed to come into the light of things.

J.T. That is, we need to come into 1 Corinthians

instead of remaining in Exodus. We have to learn to be in the anti-typical part of Scripture, to deal with Scripture anti-typically, and so pass on from Exodus, or whatever it be that is involved, to the actual thing which the apostle Paul is ministering.

E.N.J. This expression in verse 18, "are transformed according to the same image from glory to glory", there is no limit to that?

J.T. That is what I would say. There is no limit from glory to glory; therefore we begin with the Lord's supper. We come together, we leave our houses and come together; and the first thought in our minds would be to get into touch with one another, because we need to be changed, and if we are to be changed, to be ready for the change, that is, changeable. The Lord Himself takes that ground, and so the thought is that we are to learn to be capable of change, because we shall be, when He comes for us; and now the thing is to learn to be capable of change in a moral sense, and thus fit for the assembly, and the assembly service.

R.P. That is what we see in Stephen. There was a change with him.

J.T. Very good; I am sure it is intended for that. I was thinking of the two men that are mentioned, Stephen and Philip. How ready they were, after their appointment to the deaconship, for greater things, for purchasing to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith! They were ready for that.

R.P. Do we see in Paul things worked out in a substantial way? The thing was found in expression in himself.

J.T. He evidently made much of the Corinthians. He would say, 'I would like you to understand the wonderful work that is going on in Corinth'. One is sometimes mindful to say the same thing as to the wonderful work going on here in Australia. Not that

one would occupy the saints with themselves, but it is right to take account of what God is doing. We will presently be saying, "What hath God wrought!" But what is He doing? What is the character of His work? There is a wonderful work here, only the enemy is endeavouring to spoil it, but the Lord is endeavouring to help us to overcome by suffering.

R.P. Your suggestion is that Paul felt death was rolled in on him. He said, "We ourselves had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not have our trust in ourselves, but in God who raises the dead; who has delivered us from so great a death, and does deliver", (2 Corinthians 1:9,10).

J.T. Just so, and that we might be able to encourage those who are in any tribulation whatever. He had gone through things, and he would be able to encourage any here in suffering.

A.M. Is the reference to the Spirit quickening important? Do we perhaps overlook His service, and not make room for it sufficiently? I am inquiring as to how all of us might move into this more intelligently, and make room for the service of the Spirit in this quickening way, which obviously involves a change, does it not?

J.T. It does. So if we look at the chapter again we shall see. Verse 5, "Our competency is of God; who has also made us competent, as ministers of the new covenant; not of letter, but of spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit quickens". You mean that? The quickening power of the Spirit is current all the time in order to complete the assembly.

R.G.W. Whilst there is a special opportunity for this on the Lord's day, is this a matter that goes on continually as we come into the condition of soul for it?

J.T. Well, I would think so, but the first day of the week is so important. The idea of time, too, comes up now at this point. We have the idea of

time. God Himself made time, and He made it for Himself, and was content to stop at seven. He made the first day, the second day, and so forth, up to the seventh. Then we have later the idea of weeks, and the idea of weeks introduces the thought of the assembly. I believe the assembly is worked out in weeks. As regards Israel it was more the new moons, or the months; whereas now the thought is weeks, and hence the first day of the week is of prime importance. Then the second day of the week is the prayer meeting, and so forth. We can easily see how the Spirit of God is working on the principle of time, and affording us time, because we need it. We cannot always be working with our hands, we need rest, and we need to take our sabbaths, and so the idea of sabbath keeping is very largely seen in the history of Israel. More than one-fourth of their time was devoted to sabbath keeping, and that, in the spiritual sense, is so needful now; that we might be able to enter into assembly service, and rise up to the thought of Ephesian change, being raised up together and made to sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus. That is the thing that should be always before us, the idea of going from glory to glory, and rising all the time.

J.M. So would you say that this chapter is to draw attention to the greatness of the present moment, that everything that went before is now exceeded, and we are touching that which is marked by surpassing glory?

J.T. Exactly. It is not a question of time only, but a question of persons, of course. We have Moses, and David, and the prophets, in the Old Testament; but as regards persons we have come to the greatest time, the Lord Himself, of course, being unique and outside of it all, but as to persons, it is a time of great persons; and Paul was pre-eminently characteristic in this sense, there was none like him.

J.M. Has it in view the thought of persons being changed from glory to glory?

J.T. That is the idea. You get it in Paul, and you get it in John, and of the Lord Himself it is said that He was transfigured, and His countenance changed. Peter went up to the house-top to pray, and an ecstasy came upon him. Well, these things are written to us to show what the dispensation involves, so that we might have some little thought of it.

C.G.McC. The Lord says to the woman, "The Father seeks such as his worshippers", (John 4:23). Is that the thought?

J.T. That is it. Of course, worship itself does not need change, it is an attitude. But what we are talking about, the actual change that is possible even with the saints, and that the Lord Himself comes into actual change, is of great importance to have in our minds. And so as to Peter, according to the Acts he went up to pray. That is what he went to do, but an ecstasy came upon him as he prayed. Well, why should that be? Is it not to show us the greatness of the dispensation?

P.A.H. Referring to the thought of change as bearing on the service of God, there is a certain glory connected with the apprehension of what we are as kindred to Christ, and what the assembly is in relation to Christ, and then as to sonship. All that involves the taking on of change.

J.T. Some day it is going to be real. We talk about the Lord's coming, and it is going to be real some day, it must not always be a thing in the future. There must be some expectation of it actually happening.

B.G.W. When you speak of Paul in regard to change, are you referring to his going to the third heaven?

J.T. There is an illustration of it. He said 'I do not know whether I was in the body or out of the

body'. That is a remarkable thing. Then he adds, "God knows". Well, putting all these things together, the question is whether we are real in our expectations as to the Lord's coming, and are ready to be changed at any moment, and whether we are aiming at the change in the service of God that is open to us on every first day of the week.

P.A.H. Our experiences on the Lord's day morning would be in view of preparing us for the actual change.

J.T. I think that is the idea. The Lord is saying, 'I am making you ready'. We have that principle in the very opening of the subject of the Lord's supper. Peter and John were to go and make things ready.

R.C.McC. So in the practical side of it, should we be ready at any particular meeting to move together, that we might be ready to be changed together with our brethren?

J.T. Therefore, it is a question of the whole of the saints on earth; that is the full thought that belongs to our position, and that we are all going together. We are all going up together, and that is sure to come. It is not to be merely talked of for ever and ever, but it is sure to come, and the Lord is aiming at our being ready for it.

E.N.J. In connection with this matter of being ready for change, I would suggest that in Abigail there was no hesitancy. She did not in any way hesitate when David sent for her and communed with her to take her to be his wife.

J.T. She was ready. That is very good, and so was Rebecca; she said, "I will go".

W.L.W. Do upper room conditions afford opportunity for the experience of change? "Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord", (John 20:20). Is that what we have substantially here, "The Lord is the Spirit", and "we all, looking on the glory of the Lord, with unveiled face, are transformed

according to the same image from glory to glory"? There is liberty. "Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty". The saints are in liberty from that moment onwards.

J.T. Very good. One wonders as to how much we are taking in of what we are talking about. The Lord's promise is a certainty, and it is going to happen. We are not going to be talking about it for ever and ever. The thing is to happen, and the Lord means that we are to expect it to happen, and be ready for it.

R.P.

'E'en now we taste the love,
And know the mighty power,
By which we'll rise to realms above
When waiting time is o'er'. (Hymn 225)

J.T. Very good. Paul is the example of all these things, as Moses was the example God used to make everything ready in view of His service. Everything was made ready, according to Exodus. When the time came everything was ready, and even Moses himself was not equal to the thing that was in the mind of God (Exodus 40:35).

J.M. So the apostle says in verse 12, "Having therefore such hope, we use much boldness". Would that connect with the apostle so boldly and in liberty saying, "We all, looking on the glory of the Lord, with unveiled face", and would we get in principle there the transformation?

J.T. It is in the present tense. "We all" is emphatic. It is a universal thought. Of course, we may say he is speaking to the Corinthians, but by extension it is a universal thought. "We all, looking on the glory of the Lord, with unveiled face, are transformed according to the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Lord the Spirit". It says we are transformed.

R.P. Will you help us with regard to the remark,

"The Lord the Spirit"? Is the Lord functioning in that capacity?

J.T. That is just what I mean. The Lord is here seen as the Spirit. He is in authority, He is not giving that up, but He is seen as a Spirit, showing how divine Persons can act freely and quickly according to Their pleasure.

R.G.W. It says, "Looking on the glory of the Lord"; not on the Lord, but on the glory of the Lord. What does that convey to us?

J.T. It is a question, I would think, of the Lord in this capacity; what glory He has in dealing with His people, how He can transform them. It is a question of what He is capable of in His love for His people, to change them at once from glory to glory.

R.P. Paul makes a point that his ministry was the result of being in living touch with Christ in glory and taking on glory.

J.T. Quite so.

W.L.W. Were Moses and Aaron and the seventy elders, in type prepared for change when they went up to the mountain and saw God? Change takes place, and it says, "they saw God, and ate and drank", (Exodus 24:11). They were in accord with the position. They saw the God of Israel.

J.T. Quite so; that is to say they remained as men and saw God. The whole position was glorious, but they retained their human position and state. They were not changed so far as I see, but they saw the God of Israel.

C.G.McC. Would you help us as to the words "according to the same image"?

J.T. I think it means that we are all made alike. I suppose that is the way it will be in the glory. Christ will be the firstborn among many brethren.

E.N.J. I suppose there is but one pattern before God, and that is Christ. All must be conformed to that same image.

J.T. That is what I was endeavouring to say about Moses. He had the pattern, not patterns. What is to be effected is one idea, and so here it is all one idea. It is a question of sameness. We are all transformed into the same image, but it is from glory to glory. It is incessant.

C.G.McC. Being transformed into the same image involves the thought of countenance. I was thinking of the Song of Songs, where the Lord says, "Let me see thy countenance (Song of Songs 2:14)". Would He see a change in countenance?

J.T. Very good. You get it in the second book of Psalms, the health of God's countenance; that is to say God's countenance implies health to us, and then our countenance, the health of my countenance (Psalm 42:5,11). Health is the idea there, and here is a similar thought, that is to say, it is freshness, so that we do not need to be stale or old-looking. We retain our freshness at all times.

P.R.P. Does all this begin with the acceptance of the wilderness position?

J.T. You mean the acceptance of the wilderness position is implied in the letters to the Corinthians?

P.R.P. I was thinking of what was referred to earlier as to the Lord taking account of the sufferings of His people. Is it as we accept that position that the Lord can take us on?

J.T. Quite. We accept the wilderness, but He is intimating to us that we are going to the land. And so He says He has spied out the land for us (Ezekiel 20:6). Moses saw it at a distance, and then they were going there; hence, as they go across the Jordan, they have the old corn of the land; that is to say, it is reached in fulness because the land had yielded the year before. There was plenty.

PRACTICAL CHRISTIANITY

2 Corinthians 4:1 - 18

J.T. In these general meetings 1 Corinthians usually opens up to us the truth of the Lord's supper, which issues in the service of God generally, and very often practical Christianity is ignored. That is to say, Christianity that involves everyday life, family life, business life, sickness and death, all of which are of great import in Christianity; so it occurred to me that we needed help in the truth of the preaching of the gospel, involving everyday life. The subject in hand is not finished at the end of 2 Corinthians 3, we should come on to chapter 4, because it is a question of the gospel, and what immediately flows out of the gospel testimony as to our lives. Paul says, "Therefore, having this ministry"; that is to say, the ministry of the gospel, "as we have had mercy shewn us, we faint not. But we have rejected the hidden things of shame, not walking in deceit, nor falsifying the word of God, but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every conscience of men before God. But if also our gospel is veiled, it is veiled in those that are lost; in whom the god of this world has blinded the thoughts of the unbelieving, so that the radiancy of the glad tidings of the glory of the Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine forth for them", 2 Corinthians 4:1 - 4. After the third chapter, which is usually taken up as entering into the Lord's supper, we have this passage in the fourth, which alludes directly to the gospel.

P.A.H. Would you say then, that the effect of the glory is seen in our walk here, as commending the gospel practically?

J.T. Just so, in our walk; and then if it be our sickness or our death even (we are led on to the

thought of these very solemn, facts), are we ready for them?

E.N.J. The previous chapter we have already referred to may help here. "But our competency is of God; who has also made us competent, as ministers of the new covenant", 2 Corinthians 3:5,6 and so on.

J.T. The thought of the new covenant is found in the first epistle in connection with the Lord's supper, and usually it is treated as the outcome of the Lord's supper, because we usually regard the new covenant as entering into the emblems involved in the Lord's supper, whereas here in chapter 4, the gospel is immediately in mind.

L.P.M. Has the reference to "earthen vessels" some important relation, to the section? "We have this treasure in earthen vessels".

J.T. Meaning vessels that are breakable, or fragile, of which we are all painfully aware, or should be. The thought does not really belong to the Lord's supper; it belongs to ordinary life, although the gospel is involved too. The truth we are dealing with will lead us into chapter 5, which refers to our manifestation before the judgment-seat of Christ.

P.R.P. Have you in mind that substance for the service of God is gained in our wilderness pathway here?

J.T. Well, it is. It is linked up with it, only that we are so prone to be diverted to the matters that treat of the service of God only, whereas other things are in mind too, that involve our sickness and our death, our departure to be with Christ. The question raised is whether these great facts are sufficiently in mind.

J.M. Do you mean that everything in our lives here is to be made subservient to the shining of this light which God has put in earthen vessels?

J.T. Yes. The reference being to Genesis 1 where God caused the light to shine, the allusion is

to what God brought in. He commanded that light should shine. It is a question of just what is needed in the sense of light.

A.M. In Gideon's time the vessels had to be broken for the light to shine.

J.T. It is alluded to directly here.

A.M. Does that bear upon the death of the believer, the great end of God's ways in that way?

J.T. It bears on the facts that are dealt with in Gideon's time, how the reduction of those that were engaged in the service was made from thirty-two thousand to three hundred -- a most important matter. The allusion here is to that. The vessels were breakable, they were fragile, but the point is the light was in them.

A.M. I was wondering about the reference that "death works in us", as if Paul would sympathise with Gideon in that sense.

J.T. Just so. "But life in you"; that is, life in the Corinthians; but in order to reach that, death had to be wrought out in Paul. It would be similar to the experience of Gideon in dealing with the Midianites. It was a question of dealing with the enemy, and how the enemy should be met.

L.P.M. "That the life also of Jesus may be manifested in our mortal flesh". Is that in mind?

J.T. That is the idea. What is mortal, what is liable to death. It is not a question of what is capable of resurrection, but what is liable to death. Mortal means liable to death.

E.N.J. Gideon was able to say to them, "As I do, so shall ye do (Judges 7:17)". Would that indicate that the Lord is supreme? Gideon, I take it, is a type of the Lord, but He is supreme in this matter of suffering for the sake of the gospel.

J.T. Just so. But He is supreme in the matter of death in regard to the saints, too, who are all liable to death, which is a most solemn thing. We

know that some may not die; that those of us who are alive and remain will not die; at the same time, generally speaking, we are all liable to death.

A.M. Is the acceptance of death a great moral feature in relation to the service of God? I was thinking of "Who shall deliver me out of this body of death? I thank God, through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then I myself with the mind serve God's law", (Romans 7:24,25). Does that underlie the exercise the apostle reaches here?

J.T. Quite so, "but with the flesh sin's law (Romans 7:25)". And that leads up to the Spirit. Eighteen times or so the Spirit is mentioned in the eighth chapter of Romans. It is a question of the Spirit, but then there are these facts that are mentioned in this passage, and every one of us, old and young, has to do with them. Are we ready for them? Not only ready for the service of God -- they will work out in the service of God -- but are we ready for these things that are mentioned here?

P.A.H. Would you say a little more as to the bearing of these things on the gospel?

J.T. It is a question of the things themselves, the actual things that each of us has to deal with, that is to say, we are subject to death, and we have mortal bodies. We have bodies that are liable to death. They may not die, but they are liable to death, and the liability has to be faced.

J.M. So the apostle was not hindered in any manner by the things that are seen, but looked on to eternal things.

J.T. That is right, and the chapter ends with the most glorious hope. At the same time the actual facts that I mentioned are not ignored or hidden; there is the actual possibility of death at any moment.

L.P.M. Reference to day by day seems to limit it to a condition that is liable to be interrupted. Verse 16 reads. "Wherefore we faint not: but if

indeed, our outward man is consumed, yet the inward is renewed day by day". Does that suggest the temporary conditions in which we are found, all liable to interruption?

J.T. That is right; temporary, and so in chapter 5 we are in tabernacle conditions, which is also a temporary idea. I hope the brethren will get at the truth as to the working out of the gospel in every person's life and existence down here, and how the uncertainty of everything ought to affect us and make us real and serious, and fearful too, because the idea of fearfulness is involved in all this.

R.G.W. Do you include the gospel in the term "the service of God"?

J.T. Yes, but then what about death? What about your child that might die, or the person who is very old and may die at any moment? Is there readiness for all these things? I think these are very practical things that ought to enter into our minds and make us real as to them.

C.E.J. Is that what is meant in the verse, "nor falsifying the word of God, but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every conscience of men before God"?

J.T. Just so; everyday life, every conscience of men.

J.McN. Is the idea that the life of Christ should shine out in our everyday history, even as we are in the sense of acceptance in Christ before God?

J.T. Yes, the light should shine, but then see all the eventualities that are to be faced in all the members of the family, and in all the brethren in the meeting, and so forth, which God has prepared for in the gospel. Are we utilising what He has prepared, so that we are ready at any time, as the word is, "Be ye also ready" (Matthew 24:44)?

L.P.M. So that the reference to the dying of Jesus seems to spread a lustre over all these matters.

J.T. Yes, and then, "Death works in us, but life in you". That is to say, one brother is ready to accept death in order that all the others should be living. It is a practical matter. If we are sick (it may not be sick unto death, but it may be), what effect has it?

C.P. And all these temporary afflictions work out in us an eternal weight of glory.

J.T. Well, that is what it says, but they are called light afflictions. Verse 17 says, "For our momentary and light affliction works for us in surpassing measure an eternal weight of glory; while we look not at the things that are seen, but at the things that are not seen; for the things that are seen are for a time, but those that are not seen eternal". Now, am I affected by all that? Am I living in the light of eternity, or am I living only in the light of time?

A.E.D. By the use of the word "always", Paul shows how constantly the thing was there with him. "Always bearing about in the body the dying of Jesus, that the life also of Jesus may be manifested in our body; for we who live are always delivered unto death on account of Jesus, that the life also of Jesus may be manifested in our mortal flesh".

J.T. Yes, I am glad you brought that in. The first mention of a subject like this helps us and carries us through to the end, because there is an end in chapter 4. There is an end in chapter 3, and there will be an end in chapter 5 if the Lord spares us to come to it.

C.E.J. Would Paul and Silas in the prison at Philippi illustrate what is in your mind?

J.T. Yes, it shows they were equal to carrying on the service of God at any time under the most trying circumstances, so that in prayer they sang praises to God. They were not mournful because of prison conditions, they were ready for the greatest things, the service of God.

J.M. Would verses 8 to 11 bring before us the

range of things which would militate against us here, but in spite of all, the light is to continue shining out from us?

J.T. Yes, the light is to continue shining out, because God called the light Day, not indeed that there was not to be darkness, because there is, but the light is the principal thought. "God called the light Day", (Genesis 1:5).

A.M. Are verses 8 to 11 the expression of this great thought of the surpassing power of God working out in the believer's life here?

J.T. Quite so. "Every way afflicted, but not straitened; seeing no apparent issue, but our way not entirely shut up; persecuted, but not abandoned; cast down, but not destroyed; always bearing about in the body the dying of Jesus", and the end in view is, "that the life also of Jesus may be manifested in our body". That is to say, it is not merely life, but the life of Jesus, which I suppose would be what marked Him down here. All that is worked out in these things; it is worked out in spite of these things that are liable to happen, and we are able to go on and manifest the life of Jesus.

F.R.G. What is involved for us in always bearing about in the body the putting to death of Jesus?

J.T. I think when the Lord went down from the mount of transfiguration, He had that in mind. He was going down to die, deliberately going down to die, showing that He is expecting a thing. It is the putting to death of Jesus. He knew it would happen, and warned the disciples of it.

L.P.M. Are we in everyday life to take on this outlook and habit that we are to bear about in the body the dying of Jesus?

J.T. That is the idea, I am sure. If we think of what the Lord did, though He did not avoid anything, He did hide Himself at times. He did not throw

Himself into the way of danger, but still He would take it if the testimony required that He should.

E.N.J. There is the principle of one dying for the people. Should that be with us each individually day by day?

J.T. Just so: like Esther. Mordecai put it on her, and reminded her that she may have come into prominence for that very purpose, to go in to the king, and she took her life in her hand. That was the same principle.

D.H.B. Have you in mind that these thoughts would lighten the sufferings which we are called upon to face in an individual way?

J.T. I think so; they would make them light and bearable. We ought not to magnify them unduly so as to scare people. We are to treat them according to what they really are in the mind of God as possible happenings; so the Lord says, "Be thou faithful unto death, and I will give to thee the crown of life", (Revelation 2:10). The Lord would encourage the brethren in Smyrna to accept death. It was the time of great persecutions, at least ten, in the early days of the assembly, and the Lord urged them to accept death. He said, "Fear not those who kill the body and after this have no more that they can do", (Luke 12:4). That is how the Lord met all, and encouraged the saints to meet it; and I think there is a reason for us to learn to do that now, because of so many things pressing in upon us by the world, the industrial world, and the social world. Anything of that kind is liable to happen, and the Lord may order it or allow it, so that it is a question of being ready, and the gospel encourages us to be ready, and gives us the means of being ready.

C.G.McC. Are we to be ready to pass through these experiences so that the surpassingness of the power may be of God, but manifested to us, and in us?

J.T. Quite so, and to make us independent of human resource, and superior to death, superior to the most terrible sufferings even if they come. The point in that verse is that we have this treasure in earthen vessels; that is to say, we have the truth; without making any pretension, the saints have it in principle, and they have it in earthen vessels; that is to say, in breakable, fragile vessels, and we know they are fragile, and that they are liable to death, but the excellency of the power is to be brought out through that; that is the way it works.

A.E.D. Is there a need of resoluteness on this line? The Lord steadfastly set His face to go to Jerusalem.

J.T. Just so.

E.N.J. You have referred to ten days; have you in mind, "Fear nothing of what thou art about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days. Be thou faithful unto death, and I will give to thee the crown of life", (Revelation 2:10)?

J.T. The Lord is very definite about it. The ten days were the ten persecutions that are well known in the history of the assembly, and the Lord is telling the brethren about it, so that they should be ready, and ready in the sense of being faithful, even unto death. A very good word for us at the present time in this city.

P.R.P. Are you thinking of Stephen in this regard?

J.T. Well, he was the first martyr spoken of in Christianity. Paul calls him the Lord's martyr. So that he has that honour of being the first who died for the truth in our times, because it is our dispensation.

D.H.B. Is it important to get hold of the fact that he died for the truth?

J.T. That is it, and died most unfairly; but he put himself into the matter, because he loved the

truth. He was not taken on to be anything else than a deacon, which was a very modified service, but he went further, and purchased to himself a good degree, and great boldness in the faith. He had boldness, and died in that boldness as a martyr. "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit", (Acts 7:59) he says.

E.N.J. These persecutions that are allowed to come upon us are not intended to hinder the testimony in any way, but that it might shine more brightly in the preaching of the gospel.

J.T. That is so, because God causes the light to shine, and He is ready for it. If we are ready, He will use us; He needs instruments, and Stephen was the instrument at that time, and now it may be any one of us, and it is for that that we are to be ready.

P.R.P. It says, "They were not able to resist the wisdom and the Spirit with which he spoke", (Acts 6:10).

J.T. So that he was an excellent divine choice at the time. The enemy was utterly defeated in a man like Stephen coming to the front.

J.McN. In chapter 3 the apostle speaks of the surpassingness of the glory; in chapter 4 it is the surpassingness of the power; is that to enable us to allow the surpassingness of the glory in chapter 3 to shine out in our lives here?

J.T. Yes, and then chapter 4, that the surpassingness of the power may be of God, that whatever gospel there may be, it is attributable to God.

L.P.M. So that the stress, in contrast to that, is on the earthen vessel; the power is of God, but the vessel is earthen. "We have this treasure in earthen vessels".

J.T. The word "earthen" would mean it is breakable. It is not stone, or metal, or iron, it is earthen, and the word would allude to what we are as in our present condition.

R.G.W. Does this indicate that we are not to

hold the light just for ourselves, it is to shine forth?

J.T. Just so, and that it might be attributed to God -- that God is honoured in it.

C.E.J. Would you say a word as to verse 13? "We also believe, therefore also we speak".

J.T. "And having the same spirit of faith, according to what is written, I have believed, therefore have I spoken"; so that it would be a question of what we say. We are ready to speak if necessary; there is good cause for it. Many times we speak just for the sake of speaking, but there is good cause for it here. The apostle says, "I have believed, therefore have I spoken". That was the ground he took himself. Why am I speaking? Because I believe, not because I can give a good address or a good gospel, but it is a question of faith. Am I speaking on the principle of faith? I can hardly speak of anything more important, especially in these meetings.

C.W. Would James' epistle encourage one in that, that he is able to save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins?

J.T. Showing that we can save each other from death at times. He saves his brother, and covers a multitude of sins, which is a very important thing. Because there is too much sin exposed, and the more we can cover according to God, the better. Covering sin according to God is what is effected through redemption.

A.M. Why does it say, "having the same spirit"?

J.T. Well, it would be an allusion to the quotation from Psalm 116, and Paul says he has the same spirit as the psalmist.

A.M. I wondered if he links himself up with the saints and what they are going through, in that sense.

J.T. Well, he is speaking about what he is quoting, that he has the same spirit of faith as in the quotation; and so he shows how the truth stood which he was

working Out in what he was saying, "We also believe, therefore also we speak".

A.M. The verse quoted is, "I believed, therefore have I spoken. As for me, I was greatly afflicted", and so on. It is the same affliction, is it not?

J.T. I was just going to remark on that. It is a quotation from Psalm 116, showing how we can use scripture in the ministry. We get examples from Paul and others how to use it.

R.C.McC. Is the Lord the great example for us? I was thinking of Isaiah 53:11: "By his knowledge shall my righteous servant instruct many in righteousness". Is that practical knowledge entered into by the Lord?

J.T. I would think so; showing how our knowledge is treated, and what use it can be turned to.

R.C.McC. By that knowledge here the Lord turns many to righteousness. Is that your thought in the gospel?

J.T. Just so, how knowledge can be used. If it turns many to righteousness, certainly it is used well.

P.B.P. Do you think this matter of faith is important as having to say to men? You have indicated something on that line as to the matter of the gospel, that is, we speak what we believe. We do not really speak what others have told us, but what we have entered into ourselves.

J.T. Very good. It is what we believe. It is a question of faith. As the Lord says, "O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?" (Matthew 14:31).

A.E.D. Does it shine out in Paul's word to Agrippa, and the way he availed himself of that opportunity before the authorities when he was permitted to speak for himself, and then he goes on and the light is shining in all its brilliancy?

J.T. Quite so, and how many he turned to righteousness! Another illustration is the man in John 9:21 His parents say, "He is of age: ask him ,

he will speak concerning himself". That is a good word, too.

L.P.M. At the end the Lord stood with Paul, and all the nations heard. He is going on this line to the very end. At his first defence no one stood with him, but the Lord stood with him.

J.T. And the Lord stood with the man in John 9. He heard they had cast him out and found him and says to him, "Thou, dost thou believe on the Son of God? John 9:35" The "Thou" is emphasised, as if to say, the Lord is very interested in the man. And he says, "Who is he, Lord, that I may believe on him? John 9:36" as if to say, 'I am perfectly ready to believe on Him, if I only knew Him'. "And Jesus said to him, Thou hast both seen him, and he that speaks with thee is he. And he said, I believe, Lord: and he did him homage" John 9:37,38. That is the great end in the speaking.

E.N.J. Would it be appropriate to ask here for a little help as to verse 17, in connection with "in surpassing measure an eternal weight of glory"? The positive side is brought in there.

J.T. It is a most remarkable passage. "Wherefore we faint not"; that is another thing. He mentions it twice in the chapter, the idea of fainting. Gideon was faint yet pursuing, and so Paul pursued. So here, "For our momentary and light affliction works for us in surpassing measure an eternal weight of glory". Marvellous sentence! That is to say, God turns the affliction to account for us in an eternal weight of glory. It would be hard to get a sentence so full of weight and encouragement as this. "Works for us in surpassing measure an eternal weight of glory".

E.N.J. The weight of glory would be something different from what might be seen outwardly. It is there in a solid way.

J.T. Quite so. It could hardly be avoirdupois weight; it is what is weighty in a moral sense.

R.G. Does it help us in getting a right valuation of things that are temporal in contrast to what is eternal?

J.T. Just so. Here we are not thinking of what is temporal, or what passes away; it is eternal in its character and weight. We often use the expression, 'It does not weigh with me', but the point here is that what we are enduring weighs in eternity to our credit.

P.B.P. Would the realisation that what we are contending for is something of an eternal character, be a great encouragement to us to go through?

J.T. And the affliction is not only momentary, but it is light; but the result is weighty and will be to our credit eternally.

P.A.H. Really working out to a weight of eternal consequence.

A.M. Do we need therefore to have this quality of faith like Abraham's, and then faith as to resurrection, the power of God to raise the dead? Does that enter into this?

J.T. Just so. It eventuates in resurrection.

A.M. It says in verse 14, "knowing that he who has raised the Lord Jesus shall raise us also with Jesus, and shall present us with you".

J.T. It is a question of faith, and what faith eventuates in; that is righteousness. But we have more here. In Genesis 15:6 it says, Abraham "believed Jehovah; and he reckoned it to him as righteousness". But what we get here eventuates in resurrection, not simply righteousness, but resurrection.

FACING DEATH

2 Corinthians 5:1 - 21

J.T. The brethren will be aware that what is in mind in chapter 5 at the outset, is the actual article of death; that is, the dissolution of the body; and in view of what we have had this afternoon, no doubt the brethren will recognise the importance of facing this matter, although we have the promise of the Lord that He is coming for us, and encouragement to us to love His appearing, not His coming, but His appearing. Yet as we have remarked today already, we are all liable to death; those of us who are alive now are liable to death, and therefore it is clear that the Lord would have us in readiness, as it is said, "Be ye also ready (Matthew 24:44)". No doubt we have observed the suggestion in several places in these epistles, of the apostle having been written to for information, and therefore we are encouraged to ask for information if it be available. So here he indicates his readiness to extend information when needed. So he says, "We know that if our earthly tabernacle house be destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens"; the allusion being to the believer's body, and the possibility of it being destroyed, and hence our wisdom to be ready for such an emergency, such a solemn event, for it is certain that we shall either be changed into conformity to Christ's body of glory, or we shall die first, and therefore shall have to be raised.

J.M. Is the body here regarded as being a hindrance? "In this we groan".

J.T. Just so; it is a hindrance, but intended doubtless to be discipline to us, which we do not always wish but undoubtedly the condition of our bodies becomes a discipline to us.

J.M. I was thinking of, 'If it be destroyed'. Is that from God's side?

J.T. Yes, in that sense. It is a rough thought, but a very solemn one. I suppose more properly the word "dissolved" might cover it, but the word 'destroyed' is rather strong and intended to be that.

E.N.J. Would you say a word as to "we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens"? What is the force of "not made with hands"?

J.T. Well, it would come from heaven, but not, as it were, let down visibly, but as we are formed spiritually, we shall be formed physically. We are formed spiritually already, as having the Holy Spirit, but this allusion would be to being formed bodily.

L.P.M. So that the word, "Now he that has wrought us for this very thing is God", means spiritual formation now? He has given to us the earnest of the Spirit.

J.T. Yes, the formation now is spiritual: "He that has wrought us for this very thing is God, who also has given to us the earnest of the Spirit". That is, He has wrought us, or formed us, with a view to our bodily formation.

E.N.J. Do I understand that spiritual formation is one thing, and the house in which it will be housed eternally, another?

J.T. Well, it is not very wise to undertake to differentiate or distinguish between the two, because the formation that we receive as we are converted, as we are born anew, and as we come into redemption, is final. That is the preparation that God has made for us. The actual body is the house. It is spoken of in Romans 8; the word "adoption" is applied to the redemption of our bodies, and we are said to await it.

A.E.D. Is it in contrast to the previous chapter, in which there is disparity between the earthen vessel

and what is in it? Whereas what is clothed and the clothing here are in accord.

J.T. Well, they will be in resurrection, because what is alluded to here is resurrection -- "clothed upon". In the meantime all that is left is the identity of the believer, and the formation that attaches to it. It is what is intended or included in the idea of new birth, and all that enters into the thought of redemption, which would be the salvation of our souls, as Peter teaches. In Romans 8 we have the idea of the redemption or salvation of our bodies as well. The word salvation covers the body, as is seen in Philippians 3:20,21, so that we can speak rightly of body salvation as well as soul salvation, and what is involved here is body salvation, clothing with a house which is from heaven.

J.A.A. What is the force of the body that we shall receive being out of heaven?

J.T. Well, it is what we get when the Lord comes for us. We are looking for that redemption, and being clothed from heaven. John's epistle says, "If it is manifested we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is 1 John 3:2". Not as He was, but as He is. And that is what is alluded to in Philippians, we shall be like Him; we shall be clothed with a body like His body of glory; that is the final thought as to salvation. Christ's body of glory is to be the pattern of ours, not what He was here during the forty days, but what He is now.

L.P.M. So that the temporary conditions alluded to in chapter 4 are giving way to a permanent condition of things, are they?

J.T. The temporary condition is what we are here in testimony; that is really what is meant.

L.P.M. So that the allusion in the Revelation to the witnesses prophesying so many days and the allusion here in chapter 4 to "day by day", are connected with the sphere of testimony?

J.T. Just so. We are in the sphere of testimony here in the body. If we are disembodied we are not in testimony, although with the Lord. I am sure that is important for everybody to see, that it is in our bodies we are in testimony, even in a temporary sense for the moment, and we are left here to be in testimony.

E.T. Is this word 'knowing' important for us to get hold of, that we might be in testimony in buoyancy, not unduly weighed down by sicknesses and so on? In verse 1, "For we know that if our earthly tabernacle house be destroyed"; in verse 6, "Therefore we are always confident, and know that while present in the body we are absent from the Lord".

J.T. I suppose the apostle would allude to what he had taught them in chapter 15 of the first epistle, which teaches doctrinally what is in mind here. It is a long chapter, but it tells us that we are sown in weakness, we are raised in power, we are sown a natural body and raised a spiritual body. That is what is alluded to here, that we know. That knowledge is acquired in the first epistle; and therefore we know that if our earthly tabernacle house be destroyed, that is, if we are going to die, we have a building from God, eternal in the heavens. We are accepting that. If dissolution takes place now, we are hoping for another body, a house; the word "house" referring to our bodies, whether they are dissolved, that is, "our earthly tabernacle house", or whether they are risen, as Christ is, that is, "our house which is from heaven". There is much allusion in Paul's epistles to what he had taught earlier, and these chapters are of this peculiar kind. He had already said much to them, and he is basing this second epistle on what he had said.

F.R.G. What is the point in verse 4, "While yet we do not wish to be unclothed, but clothed"?

Is it in mind that we would look forward to the Lord's return for us?

J.T. That is right; we do not wish to die, in other words. That is what is in mind, although elsewhere he says it would be better, but he is looking for the resurrection and the glory of Christ coming in. So that this chapter and chapter 4 are intended to greatly encourage our hearts, and it is important for every brother and sister, old and young here, to take it in, so as to be ready for any of these things happening.

A.E.D. In both the first epistle and this chapter Paul uses the words "swallowed up". Would you say something as to that?

J.T. Well, they are strong words, as if, instead of being dead and buried, that is, put into the grave, you are swallowed up by life. "That what is mortal may be swallowed up by life". I would like to hear your further thought about it, for it is a time for all of us to say what we think.

A.E.D. Well, I think we all noticed your comment somewhere, as to the expression about somebody 'passing away'. This is foreign to that.

J.T. I think it is. I never like the expression 'passing away', as meaning somebody has died. Paul says, "To depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better (Philippians 1:23)". That is a beautiful expression. In this chapter we have the expression "pleased rather to be absent from the body and present with the Lord".

W.J.B. Has the apostle Peter a balanced outlook in relation to this when he says, "I account it right, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance, knowing that the putting off of my tabernacle is speedily to take place, as also our Lord Jesus Christ has manifested to me", 2 Peter 1:13,14?

J.T. Peter had the exceptional advantage of being told that he should actually die, or rather be

martyred. The Lord had told him that. He does not tell us all; we have to wait and count on Him as to it. But that is what Peter alluded to, actual death, dissolution. He tells us the Lord had showed him that.

P.R.P. Would you mind saying a word as to verse 9. "Wherefore also we are zealous, whether present or absent, to be agreeable to him"?

J.T. It is remarkable that he says that. We will have to go back for that to verse 6. "Therefore we are always confident, and know that while present in the body we are absent from the Lord". The word "present" there refers to our bodies; that is, as we are now sitting here in this hall, every one of us. We are present in the body and absent from the Lord. He is in heaven, and we are here, but then he says, "for we walk by faith, not by sight". We have already had that thought, and it is a question of faith matters, not physical matters, we are dealing with. So it goes on to say, "we are confident, I say, and pleased rather to be absent from the body and present with the Lord". That is to say, if the Lord is pleased to take any one of us, we are pleased too, we are ready for it. We are ready to be with Him. The Lord said to the thief, "To-day shall thou be with me in paradise (Luke 23:43)". Speaking reverently, the thief and the Lord would both be in disembodied condition, but there is no such condition as to Christ now. He is raised and glorified.

P.R.P. Does it require a suitable body of glory to be fully agreeable to Him?

J.T. I would think that. The apostle proceeds to the full thought of being agreeable to Him in that condition. From other passages we would assume that we shall be creatively agreeable to Him. Everything will be according to new creation, so that we are bound to be suitable to Him.

P.R.P. The great test is to be agreeable to Him at the present moment.

J.T. That would be the great thought Paul has in mind, that we shall be agreeable to Him while we are down here.

J.McN. Is Paul in the practical enjoyment of this when he says, "I am already being poured out, and the time of my release is come. I have combated the good combat, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith", (2 Timothy 4:6,7)?

J.T. That is what he alludes to. He alludes to dying, to being martyred. No doubt he had that in mind, and it was a pleasure to him; he was not afraid of it, it was a joy to him.

L.P.M. So as you brought before us this afternoon, the necessary balance to the service of God is that this side of things is to be taken account of and maintained.

J.T. Very good.

L.P.M. I thought it would sober us to face the facts we have alluded to, that dissolution awaits us all if the Lord tarries, and an account of our doings in the body will be required by Him of us.

J.T. So that we ought to be ready at any minute: It may be that some will be together at the breaking of bread, or together as we are now; whereas some will not be together, so that we should always be ready.

E.N.J. Has the apostle particularly before him the positive side here? "Wherefore also we are zealous, whether present or absent, to be agreeable to him. For we must all be manifested before the judgment-seat of the Christ, that each may receive the things done in the body, according to those he has done, whether it be good or evil".

J.T. Quite. And what should take place in the interim, that is to say, there is to be an examination of what has been done in the body. We are to appear

before the judgment-seat of Christ. It is a very real and searching thing, because transactions have to take place; that is to say, the whole history of the person has to come up before God and the Lord. The whole person has to be manifested before the judgment-seat of Christ.

E.N.J. I was wondering if to be agreeable to Him now would be the same thing as the good to be received.

J.T. I suppose the apostle running on to the full thought desires to bring it home to us now, the idea of agreeableness to Christ now; because the creational side will be perfect anyhow. We will be raised in glory; so there will be no question of our not being agreeable to Him then.

L.P.M. Would you say these things "good or evil" apply in a particular way to our place in the testimony, how we deport ourselves and serve the Lord?

J.T. And the whole history of the man and woman, all that is done in the body. That is what makes it so solemn; our whole history will come into review.

A.M. Does not Paul bring out this side of things in connection with the Supper in 1 Corinthians 11? Following what he says as to the Supper, he speaks of how we comport ourselves in relation to that great occasion. The idea of judgment comes into it.

J.T. Very good. "So that whosoever shall eat the bread, or drink the cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty in respect of the body and of the blood of the Lord. But let a man prove himself, and thus eat of the bread, and drink of the cup. For the eater and drinker eats and drinks judgment to himself, not distinguishing the body. On this account many among you are weak and infirm, and a good many are fallen asleep. But if we judged ourselves, so were we not judged. But being judged, we are