Mark 1:1 - 45
J.T. What is proposed for these five readings is the gospel of Mark, the early chapters. The first chapter at this time.
It is understood that Mark is the servant's gospel. The character of it is to aid the servants in setting out the glad tidings. The word commences, "Beginning of the glad tidings", beginning of them! What a vast thing is ahead of us therefore. This book is the beginning of them, "Beginning of the glad tidings of Jesus Christ, Son of God". The opening verses are to introduce that the Son of God should be spoken of as glad tidings, and spoken of briefly and clearly so that all should hear. It is to be understood, of course, that this meeting is not a discourse but a Bible reading. The way is open for every brother to speak who has anything to say that would be profitable to the brethren.
A.E.M. In alluding to the word "Beginning", is it in your mind that there is a glorious unfolding and fullness of the glad tidings as Paul's ministry comes in, in the light of the assembly?
J.T. Quite so. The word comes to one now that we should speak as we ought to speak, and everybody should have in his mind that if he has anything to say it should be said as he ought to say it. We will have to take the whole of this
reading to cover the detail of this chapter, to be engaged with the first chapter of Mark, and we will seek to bring out what is available to the servants, those who are serving the Lord in any way in the ministry.
J.W.D. What particular feature do you see in the first chapter?
J.T. What have you to say? I have said quite a little.
J.W.D. Well, one was impressed with the greatness of the Person as the scripture was being read, the greatness of this Person.
J.T. Quite so. That is just what is said, "Beginning of the glad tidings of Jesus Christ".
It goes on that He is the Son of God, He is the Son of God. I think it would be well for the brothers to take part, that each should be free to say what he should say.
Ques. Is it of interest that as soon as the Person is identified clearly as the Son of God that the prophetic word comes in, as though it is available to those who would serve in the glad tidings?
J.T. That is just the idea at this time.
A.E.M. Is the great thought of service elevated to sonship?
J.T. Well, I should think so. I would like to say, myself, that it is a question of sonship; not simply Jesus Christ, but the Son of God, "Beginning of the glad tidings of Jesus Christ, Son of God". Of course, John's gospel brings that out fully, but Mark is dealing with the servants,
those who are to serve, and how they should serve.
J.A.P. The apostle Paul preached straightway that He is the Son of God.
A.A.T. Why did not Peter bring out the truth of the Son of God?
J.T. He did not have the commission to do it. Paul had the commission to do it. Of course, Peter was an apostle and Paul was an apostle and Peter was an apostle before Paul was, but Paul was the apostle of the assembly; the matter of the assembly is with Paul, Peter was a general apostle; the general truth of the assembly was in his mind.
A.E.M. Does it not seem to be a matter of sovereign selection as to who should bring out this great truth, and was it not needed to dignify Paul's commission?
J.T. Well, compare the introduction of the Son of God here with Paul's commission. The idea is the truth, the truth purely of Christianity -the power given to them to minister it, the power given to them by the Holy Spirit. For that is in mind in Mark. It is the beginning of the gospel, but it is the gospel not only of Jesus Christ but also of the Son of God.
J.W.F. Is that why the two features of baptism are spoken of by John here immediately? Baptism by water and "he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit?" I thought the first baptism would be the setting aside of the man that was the opposite of the Son of God, and the
second would be what was positive.
J.T. Just so. Well, I think we have a good start.
G.H.MacP. Would Paul's remark about John Mark help "... for he is serviceable to me for ministry", 2 Timothy 4:11? And I was wondering if the Holy Spirit would help us to support those who minister by taking on the ministry and speaking about it?
J.T. Just so. That is the idea in this gospel. It is the brevity of it and the consciousness of it that is in mind. If we have something to say, we want to say it quickly and concisely. Whatever we say, we say it rightly and concisely. It is wonderful that God comes in, in such a gospel as this, coming in from heaven to say things about the Lord Jesus. He is the Son of God, He is the Father's Son. "The Father has sent the Son", 1 John 4:14. "Thou art my beloved Son", Mark 1:11.
A.A.T. Peter speaks of Marcus my son. Is this the same Mark?
J.T. That is right, John Mark. Mark is the name he is known by.
A.E.M. Are there two great thoughts to keep in mind in this chapter? The greatness of the Person who is serving and the pleasure of the Father in Him as such, "Thou art my beloved Son, in thee I have found my delight".
J.T. Beautiful, the pleasure of the Father!
P.A. Does the title, Jesus Christ, suggest the man of God's will and pleasure?
J.T. Not Christ Jesus, you mean; it is not Christ Jesus, but Jesus Christ. It is the man that is in mind.
A.C.S.P. Does the emphatic "I", "Behold, I send my messenger", have a bearing on the ability to serve? And I wondered whether the recognition of authority in sending a servant enters into the pleasure God had in his service?
J.T. Yes, quite so. "Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, who shall prepare thy way". God is the One who is speaking. God is entering into the matter, and we see what He has to say. God used the twelve apostles to say things. John the baptist comes in himself, "There came John baptizing", that is before the Lord Jesus enters into His service, John the baptist is His herald.
J.A.P. He is called "my messenger" here.
J.T. That is right, he is the forerunner, the one that leads in the whole matter, the one that leads is under Christ. And "there came John baptizing", not simply came but he is baptizing. He is doing the work, baptizing in the wilderness, that is where he is doing the work. It is a difficult place to do the work, but he is doing it.
G.H.MacP. This raises inquiry about the glad tidings; for the one who serves, is he sent to serve or just asked to serve?
J.T. Well, what it says here first is "There came John baptizing". The enlargement is in the first of John's gospel that John the baptist
was sent. He came before the Lord Jesus. He is the messenger. "Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, who shall prepare thy way".
Then it goes on to say, "Voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare the way of the Lord, make his paths straight". That is the opening of Mark, remarkable opening, showing that the thing is very urgent and has to be done quickly but done well; that is, the ministry of the gospel, and whatever other ministry it may be, because the truth of the gospel unfolded has the assembly in mind. The assembly is the vessel, the vessel of the Holy Spirit.
W. McK. Paul refers to his preaching saying, "I ... have fully preached the glad tidings of the Christ", Romans 15:19; his service was well done.
J.T. Quite so, fully preached, it was done fully. I think that is excellent to bring forward, that things should be done fully.
Ques. Would you say a word more about this matter of brevity?
J.T. Well, I think if we are going to do anything for the Lord, it ought to be done at once but done in faith, not done at the expense of the truth. It should be done at once, but done well and briefly.
Ques. After the Spirit came at Pentecost, Peter stood up (Acts 2) and covered the whole matter and three thousand souls were the result. Is that God putting the stamp of approval on ministry marked by brevity and power?
J.T. Quite so. So that Peter did the work at
first, but the Lord called on Paul to do it also, and the assembly was in mind especially. Paul is the minister of the assembly.
A.E.M. Will you say something about the two words used here, "I send" and the "voice?" Immediately there is a reference to the voice. If there is no sending, there would not be the voice. There must be the element of sending if there is to be the voice.
J.T. Very good. If someone is going to say something, has he been sent to say it?
J.W.F. Would the voice represent a prophetic word, the word coming from God, the speaking?
J.T. Well, I would think so, the voice is very clear. We would say in a general way that there should be a voice. The voice is really the voice of God, it is a prophetic voice.
W.C. Is there a suggestion of that in the apostle's word when he says in 1 Corinthians, "I desire to speak five words with my understanding, that I may instruct others also", 1 Corinthians 14:19.
J.T. Now, that is just what we have been talking about, that the voice should be distinct and it should be in clarity.
G.H.MacP. Peter caught on quickly to the thought of the voice. He speaks of "this voice we heard uttered from heaven, being with him on the holy mountain", 2 Peter 1:18? Do the glad tidings come from that kind of environment?
J.T. Very good. Just as this environment
here today, there should be in it something about the assembly, something profitable. The environment is good; it is not the same environment as we might have in our houses, it is an assembly environment, the Spirit of God is here.
A.E.M. It needs a divine Person for the proclamation of the glad tidings, the Lord Himself first and now the Spirit sent from heaven.
G.H.MacP. Peter speaks of "this voice we heard uttered from heaven, being with him on the holy mountain". And then not only the glory, but "by the excellent glory" so we would love the company of Peter in our Bible readings and our gospel preachings.
J.T. Hence the present moment is an environment in which we might hear something definite from the gospel of Mark.
R.R.T. Is there a principle for us here in regard to preparation on the part of God going before in the servants? You were referring to Mark's gospel as particularly helpful to these who serve.
J.T. Now there are many who are in the service, many brothers who are actually in the service, and of course these meetings are intended to help us all, that we might do the work better than we have been doing it.
R.R.T. I was thinking, as an example, of Peter going down to Cornelius. What marvellous preparation of God entered into that before ever Peter came there. Would that be on this line in principle?
J.T. Very good, clearly he was exercised before God as to what he was doing.
L.H.B. Is the matter of the wilderness a good starting point? John did not start from Jerusalem, but from the wilderness.
J.T. Quite so, very good. It is remarkable that that is stressed here. John was baptizing in the wilderness, and then his preaching is in the wilderness. The Lord was in the wilderness but did not continue there, because the gospel brings in other things as well.
W.T. Why does baptizing come in before the preaching in verse 4?
J.T. Because the idea of death has to enter into it. It is the idea of death for the household, that the world is not to be allowed in it.
J.A.P. Is there a suggestion in the wilderness that there is no show in the preaching or the like, nothing to minister to the flesh there?
J.T. Exactly, there is nothing for the flesh at all. You have to suffer, to work at a disadvantage if necessary. It is not that you have a big job and a good salary, but you are suffering in it, you are ready for suffering. "Because to you has been given, as regards Christ, not only the believing on him, but the suffering for him also", Philippians 1:29. That is the word of God, "to suffer". You enlarge on it.
J.A.P. Well, I cannot say that I do very much suffering, I am glad for the word you give us.
J.T. Yes, you have been down in the Argentine, and did work there, did you not? That is a
long way. You had to go down, and suffered in the travelling, did you not? Our brother went down in the Argentine; he was not expected to go there, and the brethren asked him to take the meetings and he did, and was helped in it. It is a very important matter for a young man to go down to the Argentine and without expectation take a meeting like this, and be used in it. Very good encouragement for all of us, especially young men.
A.E.M. Well, now perhaps you would confirm something I said to the brethren here this morning, that it would be well to let the young men take the addresses.
J.T. Well, Mr. MacP. is a young man, you know, but he has spoken pretty well here. Now Mr. MacP., just say what you have to say to Mr. M.
G.H.MacP. I was thinking, Mr. M., that this exercise is very appropriate; it needs to be worked out in our local settings amongst those who serve in the glad tidings that there may be assembly material, less stories told in the gospel, and the communication of divine Persons more understood. Mark here makes known the Son of God, Paul came to Athens to make God known in Athens, and the Spirit, as someone suggested, has come from heaven to preach the gospel.
J.T. The introduction of the Son of God here is particularly noticeable. The phrase "Son of God" must enter into the whole of the gospel of Mark. The whole of the gospel of Mark must be governed somewhat by the presence of the term
"Son of God" because the Lord Jesus Christ is a divine Person, He is the Father's Son, He is the Son of God. Of no one else could that be said but the Son of God, the Lord Jesus.
W.C. I would like to ask about verse 8. You are speaking about the distinctiveness of the Person of the Lord Himself as the Son of God. It says, "I indeed have baptized you with water, but he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit".
J.T. Quite so. Verse 8, "I indeed", the emphatic I, "I indeed have baptized you with water, but he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit", that is the Lord Jesus. These are important matters, that the Lord Jesus would baptize with the Holy Spirit. No one else can baptize with the Holy Spirit, but One who is God. God gives the Holy Spirit.
J.W.F. Why is the change in verse 9 in the way that the Lord is presented? It seems to link on with the side of humiliation. "Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee".
J.T. "And was baptized", so the Lord Himself was baptized. "He came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized by John at the Jordan". It is very important that the Lord submitted to that, He submitted Himself to be baptized.
J.W.F. That would present the suitable attitude in serving, is that the thought?
J.T. Quite so, to be in service, that is, by accepting baptism. The Lord did not need it in Himself personally, but He was going to serve
and He submitted to what was right to do.
P.A. Baptism in the Jordan is first, then the Spirit descending as a dove upon Him!
J.T. Quite so. That point is made here, "And it came to pass in those days that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized by John at the Jordan". A wonderful fact, that He did that, that He submitted to that.
P.A. f was thinking of another point that the Lord recognized John as a true servant when He allowed Him to baptize Him. In Matthew, John objected, did he not?
J.T. Very good. It said by the Lord later, "thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness", Matthew 3:15.
P.A. That is very fitting, and is that not the very point of Matthew's gospel - righteousness?
J.T. Just so, "fulfil all righteousness", "all righteousness".
J.W.L. There seems something distinctive in what it says about the heavens here. In Luke it says, "the heaven was opened", but here it says, "the heavens parting asunder". Is that connected with public service? Would it be an evidence of power?
J.T. Well, quite so, I would say that too, evident power.
P.A. Isaiah prays in chapter 64, "Oh, that thou wouldest rend the heavens, that thou wouldest come down, - that the mountains might flow down at thy presence", verse 1.
J.T. Quite so, someone there asking God to
rend the heavens and come down to earth, marvellous thing that that should be said. "Oh, that thou wouldest rend the heavens, that thou wouldest come down".
P.A. And is not Isaiah 40 right on through to the end, the background of Mark's gospel?
J.T. Well, I would say that too, the background of Mark's gospel, quite so. Mark's gospel is 16 chapters, the others are much longer, so it is very urgent because there is not much time, but things have to be done and done well, done immediately.
A.E.M. Would you say something about verses 10 and 11, especially the fact that it was the Lord who saw "the heavens parting asunder", and the voice is, "thou", "thou art my beloved Son". It seems to have been for Him. "Thou art my beloved Son".
J.T. Wonderful! "Straightway going up from the water, he saw the heavens parting asunder, and the Spirit, as a dove, descending upon him". That is a marvellous statement that the Lord saw that, He saw that and heard the voice. Showing that the matter of baptism fulfilled now as man implies that He is ready for service, that His service is before Him; not simply to die but His service, the idea of service in Mark's gospel. He did die, was expected to die, but at the same time before Him He saw the heavens parting asunder, which I think is wonderful, which everyone here should have in his mind as we are talking together of these
matters. What a great transaction all this is, the gospel of Mark.
G.H.MacP. As in the place of servant is it right to think of the Lord in this passage as coming in for divine approval in service?
J.T. Well, that is the idea, divine approval in service, that divine approval is by the power of the Spirit. There is indication of what is to be done in those who serve and how they are to do it. Have they got ability, have they got ability to do it?
G.H.MacP. There was this great transaction at the banks of the Jordan.
W. McK. Would another prophetic word from Isaiah link on with this matter of the parting of the heavens and the Father's voice? I was thinking of chapter 42:1, "Behold my servant whom I uphold, mine elect in whom my soul delighteth!" And I was thinking of the Father's delight in the Son as taking up service, and I wondered if the prophetic word does not reinforce what we have in the gospel.
J.T. Just so, the prophetic word.
J.A.P. Can the Lord's servants count on anything like this now; help from heaven?
J.T. Well, of course, all these events refer to the Lord Himself, and not to ourselves, although there may be something that corresponds in our lives and histories and services. But the Lord Himself entered into this peculiarly and what is implied is that He is leading in it, He is obviously affording a lead
A.C.S.P. Paul says in 1 Corinthians, "And I was with you in weakness and in fear and in much trembling; and my word and my preaching, not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power", chapter 2:3,4. Is that the thing seen in a servant? You were speaking about the outstanding power and confirmation of it that was seen in the Lord, whether it was seen in Paul in the demonstration of the Spirit and of power. There was evidence that a divine Person was standing by.
J.T. Quite so. And then your thought is that in those who serve there is to be the demonstration of the Spirit and of power. And the Lord is indicating that here. Verse 12 says, "Immediately the Spirit drives him", notice that, "And immediately the Spirit drives him out into the wilderness". So we have already had much on the wilderness, but we might as well have this added too, because it is here. The Lord was driven, it is wonderful, that the Lord was driven out into the wilderness; we wonder about that, that the Lord Himself submitted to being driven out into the wilderness, to be tempted of the devil too, a marvellous thing.
P.A. Why does the Spirit drive Him into the wilderness?
J.T. "And immediately the Spirit drives him", that is the third Person so to speak of the three Persons of the Deity, the third Person has
to do with driving as it were, as it says here, driving the Lord Jesus into the wilderness. I think that is one of the most wonderful things in the Scriptures, that the Lord submitted to this. It is most affecting that the Lord submitted to it. It says just what we are saying, "immediately", notice that, "And immediately the Spirit drives him out into the wilderness. And he was in the wilderness forty days tempted by Satan, and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered to him". I think this is one of the most remarkable things that we get in the way of scriptural statements, that the Lord submitted to all this, and we are to learn from it if we are to be in the service, in the service of God in any way, the Lord is leading in how we should serve.
G.H.MacP. So that if we are serving as taking character from the Servant, should we not be leading in the way of suffering?
J.T. Quite so, leading in the way of suffering. We should read that verse again.
"And immediately the Spirit drives him out into the wilderness. And he was in the wilderness forty days tempted by Satan, and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered to him". Beautiful that the angels came in to succour the Lord and He submitted to that. We might well say the Lord could do anything, He is God, but He submitted to being ministered to by the angels.
A.A.T. I notice Luke says He was led into the
J.T. Well, Mark brings in the severest type of service.
G.H.MacP. Showing that service is not optional.
J.T. Just so, not optional. One must be sent to serve, at least this chapter indicates that it is so.
P.A. Paul speaks in 2 Corinthians 5, verse 11, "Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men". But then later on he is led and constrained by the love of Christ in verse 14.
J.T. Very good. "The love of the Christ constrains us", he says, verse 14.
P.A. It is remarkable how flexible Paul was, he could meet both ends of the situation.
J.T. Quite so. How flexible he was.
Ques. Is there not something wonderful in the word "immediately" as though at the very moment when the Father's choice delight in the Son was being given expression to, He was never more ready to face the onslaughts of the enemy?
J.T. Quite so. At meetings like these, young men especially ought to be ready to learn, to take on the truth as it is given out, but we should be all ready to learn at these meetings. In fact, they are intended for that. Because there is certain pressure, certain indication of spiritual activities that are open to us, only that we should be ready to take them on.
Rem. You said recently that the character of
these meetings is such in the Spirit's speaking that we should learn as we are sitting in our seats.
J.T. Quite so. It is a learning time, all the time we are here is a learning time, but especially at these meetings when we come together from different parts of the world t learn from the Scriptures, so that we all ought t learn, learn to read, learn to understand, and to give out what we have learned to help others. In 2 Timothy 2:2, it says, "such as shall be competent to instruct others also".
L.H.B. Would you say that the circumstances to which the Lord submits here are to bring out the character of manhood that was here before us in the perfect Servant?
J.T. Just so, because that was in mind, the place of the Servant, it is not His manhood as in Luke, it is the Servant that is in mind here in Mark, the Servant. And if we are here at all, we should be here to learn, and to hear what is said, to learn, to take it in, and to take character from it.
J.C. It says here that He was with the wild beasts in the wilderness. Is that certain elements of opposition that He had to face?
J.T. Specific opposition, wild beasts, why should they be there? They are there; the enemy inciting them to attack the Lord Jesus. But then He has accepted it, He was with them, it says.
J.W.D. Did you say we are to learn as we sit?
What do you think we should learn from verses 12 and 13? Is it to enhance the uniqueness of this Person?
J.T. We just spoke of that. "And immediately the Spirit drives him out into the wilderness. And he was in the wilderness forty days tempted by Satan, and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered to him". What do you have in mind?
J.W.D. Is it the distinctiveness of His Person that is in mind or whether we should think that there should be something like it corresponding in ourselves?
J.T. Well surely it is to be worked out with us; He is the example, the Lord is pleased to be exemplary in what He is doing here.
J.A.P. The apostle Paul went to Arabia, he says. Did he learn from this?
J.T. Well exactly. The same thing would be there, I suppose, as we see here. Is that your thought?
J.A.P. Yes, the passage reads; Galatians 1:17: "Immediately I took not counsel with flesh and blood, nor went I up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went to Arabia, and again returned to Damascus".
J.T. Well, all that is most instructive, and most affecting too.
G.H.MacP. Do you think that when he speaks of "After the manner of man I have fought with beasts in Ephesus", 1 Corinthians 15:32, that the thing was worked out with Paul?
J.T. Quite so, here the Lord was with the wild beasts, it was literal. But there when Paul said, "I have fought with beasts", that would be men, I suppose.
D.M.H. What would you say about "drives him out into the wilderness", then about "tempted by Satan" and "with the wild beasts?" I had in mind that some of the saints in this world standing for the rights of God would face these elements and the Lord would help us to be faithful in it?
P.A. In Psalm 22 it is related how the wild beasts surrounded the Lord, prophetically speaking - the bulls and the dogs.
J.T. Just so. "For dogs have encompassed me", showing I suppose, that the Lord was speaking figuratively. It is all prophetic and for us to learn from. Because we are getting on to the dispensation's end and we have not got much time to spare, you know; of course we have not much time because we are toward the end, everything indicates that we are drawing near to the end. "Then the end", 1 Corinthians 15:24, it says.
Now verse 14 affords much. "But after John was delivered up, Jesus came into Galilee preaching the glad tidings of the kingdom of God, and saying, The time is fulfilled and the kingdom of God has drawn nigh; repent and believe in the glad tidings". So that the point is, the time is fulfilled so that we should be ready
for any event, any emergency, in the service of God; the expression, "The time is fulfilled", is a very appealing word to us. "The kingdom of God has drawn nigh", it is time for the kingdom of God, it is a time of privilege so that we get the benefit of the kingdom of God. The word "kingdom of God" has been often spoken of as affecting Christianity, and the truth of the gospel, and the truth of the assembly. So that "repent" it says here. "Repent and believe in the glad tidings;" that is, there is no time to spare, but see to it that you believe in the right thing, and that is "in the glad tidings", not simply believe the glad tidings, but believe in them.
P.A. Paul charges Timothy in chapter 4 of the second epistle, saying, "Proclaim the word; be urgent in season and out of season", verse 2. That is a word for our young men.
J.T. Just so. So we get here, in verse 16, "And walking by the sea of Galilee, he saw Simon, and Andrew, Simon's brother, casting out a net in the sea, for they were fishers. And Jesus said to them, Come after me, and I will make you become fishers of men; and straightway, leaving their trawl-nets they followed him". Now that is a wonderful statement, that they immediately followed him, they left their trawl-nets and immediately followed him. They did not allow any ordinary earthly matter or tradition to interfere with the things before them. So that if you want to get into the truth or the ministry, do not let anything interfere. Let the thing happen,
do the thing, and do it well, do it rightly.
R.R.T. Is that in line with the "immediately" that we get in verse 12? Divine Persons are acting without delay here, are They not? And is it not characteristic of Mark - "immediately" and "the time is fulfilled" and "straightway?"
J.T. One has often noticed that, because it is the characteristic feature of Mark's gospel, that things are to be done well and done immediately.
R.R.T. And we are to take that on now in the service. Is that your thought?
J.T. Exactly.. Everybody here today, it is a question now of us taking on the instruction that we have here, exactly, from no less a Person than the Lord Himself and by John the baptist. And then later as we come to it by Paul himself.
Rem. Of the four gospels two are written by two of the apostles, Matthew and John; and two are written by those who had been with Paul; Mark being one of them.
J.W.F. Would that fit in with the Scripture that tells us that the things that were written beforehand were written for us, for our help and admonition?
J.T. Very good, so that the point now in what we are engaged in is that we do not miss anything that is coming to us, by whomsoever it is coming, to take it in and retain it in our souls. That is what is in mind in this first chapter of Mark.
L.H.B. There seems to be an impelling and irresistible power in what the Lord said to the
disciples, "Come after me". Do you think that that should enter into and characterize the ministry?
J.T. Irresistible power, wonderful thing that that is so. And I think we are being affected by it. It is a remarkable thing that each one of us is capable of being affected by the power shown here.
W.C. They leave the trawl-nets. I was thinking of the brevity and the clarity of the service of a servant. It is not a dragging operation like a trawl-net; today is a hook and line time.
Mark 1:21 - 45
J.T. It may be wisely remarked that we, in taking up a chapter like this, having begun it already, should seek to enter on the whole of the chapter. So that we are not looking at it piecemeal, but seeking to get the mind of God in the particular chapter before us. And then if anyone has anything in mind, to be free to say it, and say it distinctly and clearly so that the whole position will be cleared in our minds, because it is a time of learning, the time is short, and we should seek to get all we can at a time like this.
P.A. Does the frequency of the word "immediately" or its equivalent indicate how much there is to do and how quickly it must be done?
J.T. Very good, "straightway" here, for instance, verse 21. So that the word here is, "And they go into Capernaum. And straightway", that is to say immediately, "straightway on the sabbath he entered into the synagogue and taught". It does not say what He taught, but the idea is that He is teaching, it is a teaching time.
P.A. It is a learning time too, the time of teaching, is it not?
J.T. Well, quite so, it is a learning time. If anyone can teach, let him teach, because "to instruct others also", 2 Timothy 2:2, would be an opportunity for anyone who has got ability, to teach others also. It does not say what He
taught, but that He taught, and of course we have in mind now to teach, between one another to teach, and that what we say may be on the line of teaching; because people need to be taught, and the local people need it too in Knoxville.
P.A. That is right, no one of us is excused, and right teaching would prevent Jezebel, the false prophetess, from teaching, and falsifying the truth.
J.T. Very good. They say the church teaches, but the church does not teach, no right teaching is done by the church, it is a matter of gift, what God gives to people to teach.
P.A. It is individuals who teach, as "The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw" says, "For out of Zion shall go forth the law", Isaiah 2:1 and 3 which would be the administrative side of the truth, and "Jehovah's word from Jerusalem", the word would come out of Jerusalem.
A.E.M. The people in the synagogue seemed to recognize that it was more than just an isolated act for they said, "What new doctrine is this?"
J.T. It says, "And they were astonished at his doctrine, for he taught them as having authority, and not as the scribes". Now I thought that would help, that we should get at the idea of teaching because there is so great a need among the brethren for being taught.
A.E.M. Systematic teaching you have in mind.
W.S. Would you associate authority with the teaching?
J.T. It certainly says that here. "They were astonished at his doctrine, for he taught them as having authority, and not as the scribes".
A.E.M. Coming back to your first remark about grasping the general bearing of this chapter, do we get here every aspect of service, the gathering of persons by the gospel, the meeting of the power of evil, healing of the sick, cleansing the leper? In a way does that cover the whole thought of service?
J.T. Just so. I think you would expect, at least I have expected and have learned, that the Lord had in mind at the beginning to open out the truth briefly and concisely. The Lord has that in His mind in the gospel of Mark. It is the gospel of Mark, by John Mark, (not the writer of the gospel of John) John Mark is the one we are dealing with now.
J.A.P. The apostle Paul opening and laying down in Thessalonica - is that similar to teaching "with authority" here?
J.T. Very good. I would say that fully. Opening first and then laying down. That is what we are trying to do now, open up the thing and then lay it down authoritatively. There must be authority. One cannot say what he pleases, or because he is a Wesleyan or a Baptist. He must have authority and the authority is from Scripture.
R.R.T. And would the authority command
obedience? It says in verse 27, "With authority he commands even the unclean spirits, and they obey him". If there is authority, on our part there should be the obedience, would you say?
J.T. Quite so. The word is as you say, "He commands even the unclean spirits, and they obey him". There is authority there, the Lord has the power and authority. He is the One that can speak authoritatively.
P.A. Why is it that the demons never call Jesus "Lord?"
J.T. Well, because they are demons, they are the devil's agents.
P.A. But they called Him "Jesus" and "Son of God". They even admit that, but not "Lord", ever. Is that not an important recognition of the authority of the Lord, we always call Him Lord and Lord Jesus?
J.T. Just so. And the Lord's day, we happily call the first day of the week the Lord's day. We have got authority in our minds, that He has peculiar authority in His own affairs on the Lord's day. It is the Lord's day, it is not simply Sunday, but the Lord's day. I hesitate myself to use the word Sunday, although I sometimes do, but I hesitate to do it, because it is the Lord's day, and it is due to the Lord that we should say Lord's day, it is His authority there.
W.C. Did I understand you to say the Scriptures are the authority?
J.T. Very good, the Scriptures are the authority but then we have to bear in mind the Holy
Spirit is here too, sent from heaven. He is not in heaven exactly, although we could never say He is not because He is God, but He is sent from heaven, and there is authority in that He actually indwells the assembly.
J.W.F. So that you would say that each occasion of teaching as well as speaking would be a spiritual manifestation.
J.T. Quite so. But I would like to know just what is in your mind when you say spiritual manifestation.
J.W.F. Well, I wondered if besides the authority, there would be the power in the Spirit to make it effective?
J.T. Quite so. God is the Authority, of course, always. God is God, and that involves the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. But we ought to remember, too, that God is to be spoken of to Himself as God, without mentioning the Holy Spirit or the Lord Himself. God is God, He is the Center of everything, and everything flows out from Him. So that in the economy, it is God the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit. There are not two gods or three gods, "there is one God, the Father ... and one Lord, Jesus Christ", 1 Corinthians 8:6. And then we should add to that, that the Holy Spirit also is God, He is God Himself. In this book here and Matthew the Spirit is mentioned by Himself. It is well to bear that in mind that the Spirit is to be spoken of as by Himself - the Spirit, the Spirit.
J.W.C. The authority of the Lord here seems
to be in contrast to that of the scribes. "He taught them as having authority, and not as the scribes". Would that indicate there were those who had taken on things legally, but without the power of the authoritative action of the Holy Spirit?
J.T. Well, that is quite right. He is the One having authority; there was such an One here on earth. The Spirit is God too, but then the Spirit is here to teach. The Lord says, "But when he is come, the Spirit of truth, he shall guide you into all the truth: for he shall not speak himself; but whatsoever he shall hear he shall speak; and he will announce to you what is coming". John 16:13. The Lord says that Himself. The Spirit is sent from heaven by the Lord Jesus, so He is the One that has authority, I mean He is foremost in it, the One that has authority. The Spirit did not die; the Lord died, the Lord Jesus died, the Lord Jesus gave Himself for the assembly, He gave Himself for it; the Spirit did not, the Father did not, the Lord did. Now these are very important facts, I would say to the brethren, to have in our minds, because they are in the Scriptures, and there is authority to say them because they are in the Scriptures.
W.P. So it is not the authority in Moses now, it is the authority in the word of God.
J.V.C. In that we have the Spirit, does the teaching become available in cities? It is when they entered Capernaum that He taught. Do we
have the same teaching in every city, and do meetings of this character give us right thoughts as to teaching so that in every city there is the same teaching?
J.T. Quite so. But then you must not confine it there, because there is teaching in this room and it is not a city; the teaching may be elsewhere, you see.
J.W.F. I think what is in mind is the availability of the Spirit in each place so that the teaching would not be confined as it was in the Lord's day to where the Lord was personally.
A.E.M. Is it not right to say that the Spirit and gift would enter into the matter of the teaching in the localities?
J.T. Quite so, gift, we add the word gift, what God has given.
J.W.D. Well, do you think it would be right to say that because we have the Spirit in London, On t. and we are reading Mark's gospel we would get the same light that you get in New York? We have the Spirit, have we not, in the different cities in which we live? We come together in temple light. Have we not the teaching in that locality because of that, the same as you have in New York? Or is it because there is very distinctive gift in one city or another that there is more teaching available?
J.T. But then you see, it is not simply a locality, it is a question of where the testimony is and where the Spirit resides, because everything is suggested in the Spirit in the sense
of teaching. We must bear that in mind, it is not simply because the Spirit is in a certain locality. I mean to say He is in New York because we know there are persons in New York that believe in the Holy Spirit and believe in the assembly. Suppose the saints were all taken up to heaven; we might say, where is the Spirit then, where is the assembly then? We will have to take account of what is actually here, and the Holy Spirit is actually here because He has been sent from heaven. We want to rely on that, that He has been sent from heaven and that He resides in the assembly.
G.H.MacP. In Romans 5 you have the thought of the love of God being shed abroad in the heart by the Holy Spirit which is given to us.
G.H.MacP. And in chapter 6:17 we have the thought of obeying from the heart the form of teaching which is delivered to us.
J.T. Very good, that is important.
R.R.T. Is this line of teaching what is involved in doctrine? It says here, "They were astonished at his doctrine". What relation has doctrine to teaching?
J.T. Well, of course the word "doctrine", the meaning of the word implies religious teaching. It is a scriptural word - doctrine. The word is referred to the Lord here. What you have here, for instance, "And they go into Capernaum. And straightway on the sabbath he entered", the Lord entered, "into the synagogue and taught".
He spoke of that at the beginning. He taught, the Lord taught, but it does not say what He taught. We shall soon come to it, however, in this gospel. "And they were astonished at his doctrine", you see it is the Lord's doctrine, they were astonished at the Lord's doctrine, "for he taught them as having authority, and not as the scribes". Well, all that plainly indicates what we have been saying.
P.A. Where the Lord's name is recorded, is that really the initial point to start with as having a testimony in it?
J.T. Very good. We shall come to the word "testimony" here too, down below a little bit. So that we read further, "And there was in their synagogue a man possessed by an unclean spirit, and he cried out saying, Eh! what have we to do with thee, Jesus, Nazarene? Art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the holy one of God". Well, that is remarkable that he says that, that God allowed him to say that and Jesus rebuked him. Notice that, "And Jesus rebuked him saying, Hold thy peace and come out of him". That is what the Lord did, He rebuked him. "And the unclean spirit, having torn him, and uttered a cry", - notice that, it is a wicked spirit - "with a loud voice, came out of him". The Lord's authority is recognized by the wicked spirit here, showing that He has real authority, not only in heaven but on earth too.
He had authority down here. And all were amazed, so that they questioned together among
themselves, saying, "What is this? What new doctrine is this? For with authority he commands". Notice here, "new doctrine" it is called here, for it was new really, it was new, the Lord did not deny that, that it was new. So it goes on to say, "What new doctrine is this? For with authority he commands even the unclean spirits, and they obey him". That is, the Lord is obeyed here on earth, which is a very important matter to have in mind. And then again it says, "And his fame went out straightway into the whole region of Galilee around. And straightway", the word "straightway" again, "going out of the synagogue, they came with James and John into the house of Simon and Andrew. And the mother-in-law of Simon lay in a fever. And straightway they speak to him about her". Simon Peter's wife's mother, "they speak to him about her. And he went up to her", notice this, "and raised her up, having taken her by the hand, and straightway the fever", note again there that word straightway, "straightway the fever left her". The Lord caused it to leave her, the Lord had authority here. "Straightway the fever left her, and she served them". Now I want to point out to the brethren that although the Lord did the thing, the woman did not confine herself to the Lord in service, "she served them". Showing that her mind was clear, clarified, both as to the Lord and as to His people, which is a very important matter and should enter into the meeting that we are having now, the importance
of getting the saints into the truth.
P.A. Would it be right in case a sister or brother is in a fever that hinders and impairs the service - no service can go on with fever - that it is well to tell the Lord about it?
J.T. Just so. It is beautiful that she gets the benefit of things that the Lord did to her, "and she served them", not only Him, but them; showing that the idea of service is extended beyond what is done by the Lord, because we want all the brethren to get service, whoever does it, if you do it or I do it, all the brethren must get it.
A.E.M. Is she not the first one that seems to be stimulated to serve characteristically like the Lord?
J.T. Well, that is what I think we might see, because she served them, and I think it is very striking, although the Lord had served her, but then she served them, whoever they were, those that were present.
P.A. Would a sister serve ministerially or administratively? In what way would you consider service?
J.T. Well, she might serve other ways, she will not speak in the assembly. "I suffer not a woman to teach", 1 Timothy 2:12, says, but she may speak elsewhere, she may speak at home to teach the family or persons who may be there. There is no reason why she should not. The Lord has given a great place to the sisters recently. And then allied with that is the great fact of the Holy
Spirit, the place that the Lord has given Him amongst us. Because at times, it would not be allowed that certain things would be applied to the Spirit or regarded as the Spirit, but now it is evident in that sense that He does say, and speak, and teach. It is recognized by the brethren.
G.H.MacP. Paul himself valued the sisters, did he not, in speaking of Phoebe as a minister of the assembly in Cenchrea, associating her with himself really in the ministry of the truth?
J.T. Just so, and clothed her very much, also Lydia attended to the things spoken by Paul.
Ques. Would this chapter challenge all of us who reside in localities as to whether things are being done and done well so that households are adjusted and service is carried on, and the saints generally recognize authority?
J.T. Well, of course I value the dear brethren, but then there may be something that I may have to point to that is not quite right, you know. I am not intending to do it, but at the same time there may be something that is not quite right in Knoxville.
Rem. Well, I was taking it home to my own locality, that if a servant of God comes into it, one's desire would be that he would find things being done in the Spirit of Jesus, that there is no adverse spirit or power, but that matters are under the Lordship of Jesus.
A.A.T. We are expecting a number of brethren from England this summer, and would
not the service of entertaining the brethren fall on the sisters?
J.T. A very great matter, how to entertain the brethren; because it is a great opportunity for the brethren in America to entertain the brethren from Great Britain and elsewhere, a great opportunity.
R.M. It says in verse 30, "And straightway they speak to him about her". They introduced the Lord to this condition that should be rectified.
J.W.D. And is this power available today, this instantaneous power to deal with evil?
J.T. I should think so, the Holy Spirit is here, He has not gone back to heaven. I would not say He is not in heaven because He is God. So we must be extremely careful as to what we say about divine Persons, because They are All equal and They are All God.
J.W.D. Do you think this power is much in evidence?
J.T. Well, I would not say very much, but certainly it is in evidence.
J.W.D. And how would you promote the power to deal so summarily with evil amongst us?
J.T. Just as we are doing now, individually. I do what I can where I am residing, and I am here.
A.C.S.P. Is this chapter calculated to leave us with a great impression of the mightiness of the Person who was present? John says, "Mightier
than I". I wondered whether a greater impression of the greatness of divine Persons would make us more active in faith to deal with things in our localities?
J.T. So if we think of the divine Persons, if we think of Them, either the Father or the Son or the Spirit, any One of Them is regarded as God. I think that is a very important matter. At the same time, They have Themselves decided to have what we call the economy, the Father being first, and the Son being second, and the Spirit being third. And these matters ought to be understood, and we all ought to have these thoughts as to Them, as to the divine Persons.
A.C.S.P. I wonder whether our inability to deal with difficulties quickly does not lie mainly in a lack of confidence in God? I was thinking very generally of persons who are not available to the saints because there is sickness.
J.T. The power is not available that is needed? Well, we all would say Amen to that. At the same time James has to be talked of. If anyone is sick among you, let him call for the elders of the assembly. Read James 5.
A.C.S.P. "Is any happy? Let him sing psalms. Is any sick among you? Let him call to him the elders of the assembly, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer of faith shall heal the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he be one who has committed sins, it shall be forgiven him", verses 13 - 15.
J.T. That is the passage to bring in, and I believe it is very much neglected and very little understood, and very little counted upon. If we pray for a thing, according to James 5, we will get answers. I wish that every brother and sister here would take that to heart; and then look to God to see where he or she is not acting on James 5, in these cases of disease.
A.C.S.P. "The Lord shall raise him up".
J.T. We have the actual promise that "the Lord shall raise him up".
A.E.M. You would encourage the brethren to act on that just as it is expressed?
J.T. I certainly would, and that scripture has been often spoken of in these public meetings; I am sure you know that, and I am sure that scripture is true. And the Lord will honour us if we honour Him, counting on Him to act for us, and counting on Him more than counting on the medicine that we get at the apothecary shops. Count on God to act for us; I believe God will honour us, and if we take it to heart, we shall find that He is honouring us. I would like to hear what you have to say about that.
R.R.T. Well, we cannot help but feel in the practice of medicine that when we are dealing with the saints we are dealing with people who are essentially different from those in the world. We have often noticed the power for healing going beyond what the medicine itself would be calculated to accomplish.
J.T. Just so, and I verily believe that amongst
the brethren there is much better health than there is generally among men.
R.R.T. It says here, "Anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer of faith, shall heal the sick", but that is not enough. We stop short sometimes with the healing, but then it says, "The Lord shall raise him up".
R.R.T. There are calculated results now, and power from the Lord that would go on to this matter of service, which you have been speaking of.
J.T. I think the Lord would certainly honour what He has written down, and those doctors who are treating people, that they will count on this; that surely it will happen because so and so is a Christian. What you say, I would say; that in treating a Christian, God answers the prayer of faith. The passage says so, the passage in James 5 says actually that the Lord Jesus will answer the prayer of faith. But at the same time we must have the whole combination spoken of in the chapter, James 5, that everything has to be gone through, and therefore we should recognize that that has to be so if we are to resort to it. That so and so is a Christian and, therefore, I believe that he will become well, that God will make him well because he has promised to do it under certain circumstances in James 5.
P.A. The Holiness movement makes a hobby of healing the body, and they miss the whole point. What you have said about this chapter
suggests the whole program of the working of this wonderful gospel of testimony. We have to be balanced about things. Would you go with that?
J.T. I would, and the Scripture has been inspired. I would stress the word inspired. It implies what the Spirit of God is doing in these connections. If I were a doctor, I would say, 'I count on that in this patient, because he or she counts on James 5, and James 5 is the inspired word from God, directly from God, and I can count on it, so I am glad to go on and help this person who is a Christian, whether man or woman, and God will come in and the brethren will be better off through it'. Because I am certain that the brethren are more healthy than the worldly people are, they have got more good health.
P.A. That woman was a liability while she had the fever, and when she was raised up, she was an asset, both to the household and to the assembly.
A.E.M. The instruction is to call for the elders of the assembly. In some way would the assembly be involved?
J.T. I think that is just the point. Because the assembly is in question; that God has such regard for the assembly as an institution appointed by Himself as the vessel of the Holy Spirit, and therefore we can count on things being done by the elders in that connection.
A.E.M. Would that involve the calling of the
assembly together in any way? The brethren will be glad of practical help as to how to proceed on these lines.
J.T. Well, I think those who are here today are to begin to think about the scripture, and if there is any sickness, we should call on God to act for them according to His promise, and all that He says in James 5 ought to be observed.
Not ignored, not simply that God will act, but the things that are said in James 5 ought to be carefully observed and acted upon.
A.E.M. I think we have given more prominence to the word elders than to the word assembly.
J.T. Just so. Take the whole matter as it is, it is the inspired word involving a promise. And we ought to observe "the elders of the assembly" - in fact there are other things in James of the same kind that have to be observed - and God will honour us if we observe them.
D.M.H. Would you raise the moral question if sickness was because of the government of God on sin, and if we confess it we may get well?
J.T. Well, it says, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and cleanse us from all unrighteousness", 1 John 1:9.
R.M. In James, that chapter to which you are referring, it says, "Confess therefore your offences to one another, and pray for one another, that ye may be healed", James 5:16. Confession to one another, not only the Lord
but also to one another, as if there should be the feature of transparency to expose it?
J.T. I think it is very important that you mentioned that, "to one another", that "if" there are sins we are to confess our sins one to another, and I think that is very little done at all among us.
A.A.T. I notice that the scripture reads, "And if he be one who has committed sins, it shall be forgiven him". I am reading James 5. So the elders of the assembly must be acquainted with the sins if they are going to be forgiven.
J.T. Just so, but we must read and go by the scripture. Read James 5, read it carefully, the part that treats with what we are dealing with.
P.E.A. "Is any sick among you? Let him call to him the elders of the assembly, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer of faith shall heal the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he be one who has committed sins, it shall be forgiven him. Confess therefore your offences to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The fervent supplication of the righteous man has much power", James 5:14 - 16.
J.T. "He that brings back a sinner from the error of his way". Read verses 19 and 20, please.
P.E.A. "My brethren, if any one among you err from the truth, and one bring him back, let him know that he that brings back a sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death
and shall cover a multitude of sins", James 5:19 - 20.
J.T. Now I would say to the brethren, affectionately and thoroughly, that we ought to pay attention to these scriptures in the epistle of James because it has an immense bearing on the truth, and will lead to better conditions of health among us, very much better than the worldlings have.
G.H.MacP. Do you have in mind that this would involve an assembly meeting if such conditions exist?
J.T. Certainly, but I would say in a special case of weakness, I should call for the elders of the assembly, do what it says, do what the scripture says here.
G.H.MacP. I was just thinking in relation to Mr. Darby and others that they practiced this scripture in their day.
A.C.S.P. Might I mention that there is a remarkable case in a meeting not far from London where a man was dying of tuberculosis, and he asked the brethren to come and pray, and he made the most remarkable recovery, and is constantly out at the meetings.
J.T. Very good. I am so thankful; I had not heard of that. Where does he live?
J.T. In Sudbury. Is he a well known brother in England?
A.C.S.P. No, he is comparatively an unknown
man. His wife came into fellowship, and he had a great desire to break bread, but was quite unable to get out to any meetings; and he asked the brethren why they could not act on James 5. And they said they would come and pray, and they did go, and they did pray, and he got better.
J.T. Have other brethren taken it up in any way?
A.C.S.P. No, I have never heard of any other case but that.
J.T. I think we ought to take it up more.
A.C.S.P. I would like to ask a question: you say to take the whole scripture. What about the matter of anointing him with oil, do you take that literally?
J.T. Anointing with oil. That is certainly literal. I should resort to it if I were going to use this scripture for the healing of anyone among the brethren and I would use that scripture as it stands in its entirety. I must confess I have hardly ever heard of it in this country. I use it myself constantly, but not with any kind of ostentation, but prove it constantly, "the prayer of faith" that one is helped by it in turning to God, in his health generally. I use it constantly in that way; "the prayer of faith".
P.A. Can we put in our soul exercise the meaning that the Lord intended the oil to have with us? What the Lord intends in oil?
J.T. Well, quite so, why should we not? I am not so sure as to what the oil would be. There
might be something said about that, as to the constitution of the oil. But I certainly would regard the scripture in a general way as scripture and inspired of God. "Every scripture is divinely inspired, and profitable for teaching, for conviction, for correction, for instruction in righteousness; that the man of God may be complete, fully fitted to every good work", 2 Timothy 3:16, 17.
E.I.E. I would like to ask about the selection of elders. Where would you select the elders?
J.T. It all comes out in the truth. If a person is sick, James 5 contemplates that he recognizes the truth, therefore he recognizes eldership. We recognize and act upon the truth in principle, we do not recognize and act upon the truth literally even today at this meeting. There are many things we cannot recognize and act upon literally, but they did at the beginning; but we are not in the position to do it because of the general position among the saints.
E.I.E. I was wondering really where would we find the elders today in a locality?
J.T. It is only a question of the truth in principle that we continue to hold, and God recognizes it because we do so, and He recognizes us. The Lord comes into our midst on the first day of the week according to what He has promised us.
E.I.E. I was just wondering, of course, as to whether the elders would be selected, selected from a few in a locality, whether there should be
any special brothers selected to carry out this procedure?
J.T. I do not think it would be just fair to assume that. The Lord is recognizing us as returned and recovered. "Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another", Malachi 3:16, that is the ground we are on. We fear the Lord, and we are not able to carry out everything they did at the beginning of Christianity, we are not able to do it, and God recognizes that and helps us because we are recognizing the truth as far as we can.
G.H.MacP. Your remark is very helpful that we should maintain the principle and truth of the assembly and act in the light of it.
J.T. God is with us, we prove it every Lord's day, that the Lord is with us.
Ques. May I ask about this matter of oil; was there not the great anointing by the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, and would not James 5 involve seeing that the one that is sick was in the full flow and power of the Holy Spirit?
J.T. Full power? We have to raise the question on these points - has he received the Holy Spirit since he believed? Well, if he has not, we would not let him into fellowship.
Ques. But suppose the Holy Spirit was being quenched or being hindered?
J.T. Well, that may be, but then self-judgment will bring about recovery of that matter so that we can go on with the truth. In Summit, for instance, you have no difficulty in
going to the meeting there. You prove the presence of the Lord on the first day of the week? So do we in New York; thus we act as proving the presence of the Lord as regards James 5.
Ques. But do you not think that the oil mentioned has a spiritual meaning also?
J.T. I would say that fully. Do you go with that?
A.E.M. Yes. The very use of oil, which is a figure of the Spirit, would involve the whole matter of the Spirit's part in it.
J.T. Just so, I would agree with that. What I would say now is that I go with that fully, that the Holy Spirit is here, and we can count on James 5 being carried out according to what is stated there.
P.A. Do not verses 14 and 15 cover what is not related anywhere else in the New Testament?
J.T. There is not another passage just like it; and that does not alter that it is Scripture, one passage is enough.
P.A. Yes, I was just referring to the contents of it, "Think ye that the scripture speaks in vain? Does the Spirit which has taken his abode in us desire enviously?" James 4:5.
J.T. Very good. All these scriptures are very good and very important and, I believe, are being received in this hall at the present time, I am speaking confidently. The Lord is helping us, and the Lord is here in the power of the Spirit to be with us, and we are proving it. We are proving in what is coming out that the thing
is real, what we are talking about.
P.A. Would this scripture suggest that the Spirit is sovereignly acting in verse 5 of James 4?
J.T. Just so. Now I would like to get on with the passage in Mark because there are many things we have not touched yet. But we have touched the leading truths, so it says here, "And the mother-in-law of Simon lay in a fever. And straightway they speak to him about her. And he went up to her and raised her up, having taken her by the hand, and straightway the fever left her". There it is, "the fever left her". We have talked about that, "and she served them". She served all that were there, not simply confining her service to the Lord, but the whole matter was taken on by her. She was in the truth really. And so it says, "But evening being come, when the sun had gone down, they brought to him all that were suffering, and those possessed by demons; and the whole city was gathered together at the door. And he healed many suffering from various diseases". So that now we have the authority to do these things, just as we have been speaking about James 5, because it is referred to here that the Lord did them, and the Lord would help us to do the same thing.
A.E.M. The healing of Peter's wife's mother seemed to have greatly encouraged them to bring all the cases.
A.C.S.P. I think the whole chapter, and what has been said about it, is calculated to stimulate our faith with desire to see things done.
J.T. It is an immense thing for the brethren to look into things and accept them in faith, accept them as scripture. "Every scripture is divinely inspired and profitable", 2 Timothy 3:16, as though we need to become accustomed to take on scripture and act upon it. I think that is an immense thing reached if we reach that this afternoon.
J.A.P. The Lord Jesus getting up early in the morning to pray would indicate, would it, where the power lies to do these things?
J.T. That is to say, we would have more time to do things, so to speak. So that we should use time, whatever time we have to carry out scripture and act on the time we have available to help the brethren, wherever they be, whoever they be.
W.C. How would we bring the whole assembly in?
J.T. Only the principle of the whole assembly. We cannot get the whole assembly in Knoxville, we cannot get it. But we can get it in principle, and the Lord recognizes that.
W.C. We would like to know if these exercises should be made known among us that there should be, as in Peter's case when he was in prison, unceasing prayer by the assembly?
J.T. Suppose you have a child sick or your wife is sick, what are you going to do about it?
W.C. Well, I am happy to hear the brethren pray about it, but I do not ask them about it.
J.T. Well, there is more than that in James 5,
much more. Do you turn to it in any way in your life?
W.C. Well, I cannot say. We ask about all the brethren, especially when we know they are in need of prayer.
J.T. But you have not attempted to carry out James 5, "the prayer of faith" have you? Is that what you mean? I am talking about myself, I constantly use it, James 5, "the prayer of faith", counting on God to act for me in my physical condition.
J.T. I have not attempted to ask the brethren to come, because I have not a disease that would be covered under the word - "Is any sick among you?" I think James 5 refers to a serious matter, that is what I understand.
W.C. I want to say that we have done that, praying for all the brethren that serve and yourself, we are greatly before God to help in that regard.
G.H.MacP. Is it in your mind that we may be stimulated to apply the truth individually?
J.T. James 5 is a practical truth that can be applied in certain conditions, and should be applied. And I have applied "the prayer of faith" in my own life.
A.E.M. Are you connecting James 5 in a literal sense with some specific disease, some very great disease, not the weakness of old age that we are subject to?
R.R.T. Is it important that in James 5 the word "among you" is repeated three times?
J.T. Showing that it is a characteristic Christian matter.
R.R.T. Basically the company is in mind, and it is what is affecting the company -"among you".
J.T. Quite so, and I think if we take that, it will help us greatly.
Rem. There was a case in Summit, N.J., of a sister at the point of death, and the saints generally were acquainted with it in a way, and God raised her up.
J.T. Very good. And I believe this, if we all took it to heart and acted upon it, that we should get great results. The Lord is ready to answer us.
J.A.P. Should it be kept in mind that the exercise begins with the person who is sick - "let him call?"
J.T. "Let him", the one who is sick. That is the idea. "Is there any sick among you?" One of the company.
P.W. It says that "the prayer of a righteous man availeth much", James 5:16.
J.T. That is right, "the prayer of a righteous man availeth much", and why should we not resort to it, counting on the fact that we are righteous?
W.P. So that the world resorts to change of climate and that kind of thing, and this scripture is over against that.
G.H.MacP. Is it important that Peter comes
into this picture, Mark 1:30, as being first amongst the apostles so that he may go out from a right atmosphere in service to become effective?
J.T. Quite so. Then I should not doubt for a moment that Paul also would act on this matter of sickness, you know. I cannot just recall scriptures that might bear on it, but I have not a doubt that all the apostles and all the early Christians acted on this matter.
W.C. Paul did in relation to Publius's father, Acts 28:8,9.
J.T. Quite so, and Epaphroditus too, Philippians 2:26,27.
Mark 2 and 3
J.T. The particular items of instruction in these two chapters are numerous, and it would be wise if we could go over them before we start. But it seems to me that we had better begin with the first one because it will give character to nearly all the others. The first is that it is said of the Lord, "And he entered again into Capernaum after several days, and it was reported that he was at the house". The footnote to the word 'house' indicates that the word 'house' implies that the Lord is at 'home'. The brethren will all do well if we consider this and see how it bears on the two chapters; the idea of the Lord being at home, and whether it corresponds with what we have had here at Knoxville for these two days, whether the Lord has been at home with us. And then, correspondingly, whether we have been at home with one another, whether there has been a happy household affair.
A.E.M. Would it seem to provide conditions in which faith would manifest itself in an unusual action?
J.T. Quite so. Well, at home, of course we often speak of heaven, heaven is our home, the Father's house. "In my Father's house" the Lord says, "there are many abodes; were it not so, I had told you: for I go to prepare a place;" John 14:2 ... That is the line of John's gospel.
Only now it is a question of Mark, which always bears on the idea of service here in relation to the Lord's interests. Now the question is, as I said, whether this matter of home, conditions of home, among the brethren, is understood, and sought after, and promoted among the brethren.
P.A. Conditions must be right, for the Lord to be at home, would you say?
J.T. I would say that. Of course, John is the gospel that must be looked at particularly, but then it is important when we are dealing with the servant gospel, that is with the gospel that deals with service, that we should have this principle of being at home, that we are not away from home all the time. There is a sphere that we can go home to, and that would be the assembly spiritually.
A.C.S.P. Would you open up a little more what is in your mind about this thought of home? Have you anything in mind as to our local meetings?
J.T. Well, what I always consider as to a locality is what will mark it, where it can be expanded into generality. If we deal with the local position, surely it must correspond in some sense with the general position. But then the question is whether we can always expand the local to the general.
A.C.S.P. Were you thinking at all of what you have of ten said about the importance of the homefront in the gospel that deals with service?
J.T. I am glad you mentioned that, because a
lot of the brethren are away from home all the time pretty well, they take so many invitations. They accept so many invitations to carry on gospel work and ministry of all kinds that they do not protect the homefront. I am glad, therefore, that you called attention to that.
A.C.S.P. Is it in your mind in connection with this reference to the Lord being at home that He is still serving even though He is at home?
J.T. Well, that is the point that we have now before us, and the question for each of us who serve is whether we are away too much from home, whether we are not protecting the homefront. So that the home sphere is protected for the local people, sisters and the like.
J.A.P. It says of Peter and John that they "came to their own company", (Acts 4:23).
W.C. Samuel was a great servant, and it says that, "And he went from year to year in circuit to Bethel, and Gilgal, and Mizpah, and judged Israel in all those places. And his return was to Ramah; for there was his house", 1 Samuel 7:16,17. Is it your thought that there is adjustment in the home setting? Is there adjustment for a servant there?
J.T. I think so. The Lord gives a lead here. The word is, as we have already remarked, "And he entered again into Capernaum after several days, and it was reported that he was at the house", or at home.
A.E.M. Why is it that so often the brethren
make so much more of a brother when he goes to another country than in his own place? What I and others have noticed is that in another country a brother generally gets a great deal more place than he does when he is at home.
Does that fit in with your ideal of a homefront and what our brother has referred to as to Ramah where Samuel lived?
J.T. It does fit in exactly, but I would like to get an illustration of what is in your mind.
A.E.M. Well, it might not do to give actual examples, but I have noticed that frequently a brother has a very great place in another country which he has not at home, and I wondered whether that was right, whether the brethren in another country should not rather be regulated by a man's measure when he is at home.
J.T. Now I fully go with all that, and I think I can enjoy it too. I remember, if I may refer to myself, in earlier days there was trouble in New York and a certain brother advised me to go somewhere else, to Rochester. He thought it would ease off the local difficulty. And a certain old sister lived in New York, and she said to me advisedly, "If the spirit of the ruler rise up against thee, leave not thy place", Ecclesiastes 10:4, -"leave not thy place". That was an old woman, and her name was Mrs. Humbrell, she was a very old sister. What I am recalling happened a good sixty years ago. And I acted on it, and I never regretted it. If I had left New York, I think New York probably would be at a disadvantage,
because I think God had me to go to New York and I have been helped there.
A.E.M. Well, I think we are all very thankful you came to that decision.
J.T. Well, I am thankful myself, without saying anything more than that, I am certainly thankful myself, because I believe I was helped of God to come to New York. But coming to your question, I have been going around the world, as you know, in the service of God and have been encouraged in it; and I believe that we all should seek to use what ability we have in a general way, but begin with the local position. Commend ourselves in the local position, that is the way I look at it. God is sure to open up what He has given to anybody because He is the Giver, the gifts are from God, and He is sure to make a way for every gift. And if anyone has a gift, if he lays himself out for using it, God will help him to use it, and give him opportunity for using it. But first, let him be sure that he uses it locally, and if he proves that he is efficient, then he should extend beyond his locality and go about, looking to the Lord to help.
G.H.MacP. So that in all your journeyings you were never away from home!
J.T. Well, just so. I can say that, I was always at home and free with the brethren, locally in New York and wherever I went. I am fairly well known, and I always found liberty among the brethren, which I think would be an immense thing for all of us to find - liberty among the
local brethren and then the brethren generally with whom we serve.
P.W. Paul speaking of Timothy says, "Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed", 2 Timothy 2:15. I thought the homefront was there perhaps, beginning at the homefront, before we could work it out in ministry. The approved side of it, I thought, becomes universal.
J.T. Well, it would. Timothy travelled a good bit, and Timothy and Titus are mentioned as delegates of Paul. There are no such functions exercised by any others than those two men, Timothy and Titus, they are Paul's delegates. They are not like ordinary brethren, because ordinary brethren are free like Apollos; Apollos was not subject to Paul. He was not subject to Paul as Timothy was, as Titus was; Apollos was free. The apostle Paul said to Apollos that he would like for him to go to a certain place, that is to Corinth. Paul said to go but it was not in Apollos' mind to go, so Paul did not say to him, 'Apollos you ought to go, I am ordering you to go'. He did not do that. Apollos said that he would go some other time and he did. Well, I think we ought to bear that in mind. Only Timothy and Titus were sent out as apostolic delegates. There was such a thing as apostolic delegation.
G.H.MacP. Your reference to Timothy is very suggestive about the local conditions in Acts 16. This young levite was said to be of good
report amongst the brethren in Lystra and Iconium. "Him would Paul have go forth with him". Timothy was of a good report locally amongst his brethren.
J.T. Yes, he was. He worked the work of the Lord as Paul's child. He had a peculiar place and that is a thing to keep in mind too. Well, I just want to know what brethren generally think about this idea of delegation; that is to say, younger servants moving in relation to those who are more experienced.
P.A. Why is it, that of Titus and Timothy, we do not get a word published as to what they taught and said and yet they taught? It is peculiar to them that they come under the wings of the apostle, so to speak.
J.T. Well, I think the answer there would be that Paul had a special place in the service, and the apostle had liberty to place them thus to serve generally. The Lord took Paul up to be a minister in the sense of the minister of the assembly, the Lord intended to have the assembly properly cared for. And He took up Paul and Paul showed that he was qualified to do so, and the Lord helped Paul and he helped him in relation to the ministry that was given to him. The truth is the truth, "For the Spirit is the truth", 1 John 5:6. A young brother going on in relation to Paul, as Timothy, would consult Paul in relation to the truth, and he would be Paul's delegate. Paul had the doctrine, a
peculiar place in the testimony, no one else had it.
A.E.M. Timothy and Titus would really teach what they had learned from Paul and at the same time manifest his ways in Christ in all the assemblies.
J.T. His ways - "put you in mind of my ways as they are in Christ", 1 Corinthians 4:17. I think that is very good. You might enlarge on that for us.
A.E.M. Well, I would like you to say something more as to the application to the present day. Is it not the path of wisdom for those of us who have a small measure of gift to follow the distinctive lead which the Spirit may give at any time?
J.T. And certain ones have a certain place in that, indicating what the ministry should be at the moment. And I would go further than that, and I think that it is very important. Since the time of the revival, if the brethren here will understand the word "revival", extending back to 150 years ago, there have been distinct lines of truth, and certain men have been used in those lines. Mr. Darby himself at first, and then there was Mr. Wigram, and there was Mr. Bellett; later on there was Mr. Stoney. Mr. Stoney had a great place in the ministry, giving character to it. And then there were later men, such as Mr. Raven, and then later still others who were taking a lead in the ministry. Then the next thing would be whether there are any at the present time who do that, and can be followed
A.E.M. Well, I think that is most important for us. I believe the brethren are understanding the position better than formerly, that there is a distinctive character of ministry under a distinctive lead which should be followed.
J.T. Very good. Then I would venture to say, that about fifty years ago there were men who called themselves evangelists, and were looked up to as evangelists, and God used them, too, as evangelists. But then in very short course, these brethren failed to give character to the truth. I could mention many of them. But I only mention them in general now; these men did not in any sense develop the truth of the assembly. Anyone who disregards the assembly can never get on in the truth. The assembly is a peculiar vessel that God has used to contain and receive and, as it were, house the Spirit of God Himself. Using these terms reverently, the Spirit of God is as it were housed, and the word house applies as we have it here. We would say He is at home in the assembly.
D.M.H. Would the scripture in Timothy help? "Give heed to thyself and to the teaching; ... for, doing this, thou shalt save both thyself and those that hear thee", 1 Timothy 4:16. Give heed to the teaching - would it not imply the current distinctive lead the Lord is giving?
J.T. Very good, but we want to fall in with the line that Mr. M. is enlarging on. And I
would like if you would kindly just enlarge on what one has said..
A.E.M. I do not know that I can, but l can see the importance of it, and also that young brothers should take older brethren who have served under the Lord's hand as models for their service.
J.T. That is just what I was thinking and observe, and there are a good many of them, thank God.
A.A.T. Have you any idea as to why the servants that you have just mentioned like Mr. Darby and Mr. Stoney or Mr. Bellett and Mr. Raven all spoke one language - that is the English language?
J.T. Well, quite so, God has been pleased to bless the English brethren and there are a good many of course; God has been pleased to make way for the Spirit amongst them. In the British Isles God has made great way for the Spirit of God; the British Isles - England, Scotland, part of Ireland too - and then in this country, too, God has been pleased to make way for the Holy Spirit, and He is making way for Him still. God has been pleased to do it. It is God's will, it is God's right to have a way of that kind. Because God is working still in England and the number of brethren in England are increasing steadily. In this country, too, the number of brethren are increasing. And, of course, they are English speaking countries, they are English-speaking brethren, and we might as well accept that. It is
God's way, and I believe it will continue until the end.
A.E.M. May I go back to the Lord's home? How do you reconcile this scripture about the Lord having a home with His statement that the foxes have holes, the birds of the air have nests ... ?
J.T. I would say now, making it practical, that the Lord has a home. He is free, He is free in certain cities. In certain countries, the conditions are suitable. It is a question of the sovereign action of God, the action being through the Holy Spirit, who is the great Actor here because He has been sent from heaven, and He is here in that sense. Not that He has left heaven, but He is here in the sense of being sent, and He actually was sent. And He creates conditions that are favourable to all those who love God and serve Him. So that the brethren are free to go here and there, because the conditions of home are there. So it is here that the Lord is said to be at home.
A.E.M. If you go to a city where there is no meeting, you have a terrible sense of a lack of home. I was following out the thought suggested that the Lord is at home wherever He is loved, and honoured, and listened to, and served. You have home conditions.
J.T. Just so. Well, now to illustrate the negative, Buffalo is a remarkable place, a large city, and nearby there are many companies of brethren in the fellowship and yet there has never been a home for the truth in Buffalo. It is a
R.R.T. In Matthew it says, "He went and dwelt at Capernaum", Matthew 4:13, so He must have been for sometime at Capernaum, at home there, in that city.
J.T. Just so. Then another thing that I might suggest by observation is that in the southern states - we are in the south now here in Knoxville - in the southern state; there is hardly anything to speak of for God in the sense of a home, in the sense of a home in this chapter. And it is a question now of whether the brethren in the south here have taken this to heart, and whether there is to be any improvement in it, any increase in the idea of home, a home for the testimony in the southern states.
A.E.M. That is a most noticeable matter. Have you connected it with what has been called the "colour line?"
J.T. Well, the colour line has something to do with it. The white men in the south are antagonistic racially to the coloured man. In New York and Boston, etc. the coloured brethren have been blessed of God. We are witnesses - many of us here today are witnesses - to what God has done to the coloured man in New York and in Boston.
G.H.MacP. If we understood home conditions more, do you think the Spirit of God would be free to operate on the line that you are suggesting?
J.T. In a certain sense, there is an antagonism, and it is fostered in the south. But when
they come under the influence of the Spirit of God, there is great liberty among the coloured brethren. We would be very grieved if we lost them because they greatly augment the testimony in New York. Therefore, I would encourage the brethren here in Knoxville to have it before them, that they might make a home for the truth, in that sense. Not have any racial feeling, but make a home for the truth, because the word home has to be applied in that sense, that it is a question of the ministry of the truth of the assembly, because the assembly really is the home for the truth.
A.C.S.P. Does Acts 13 help in that connection? It says, "Now there were in Antioch, in the assembly which was there ..." Acts 13:1, as though Antioch is the place and the assembly the home.
J.T. It was the assembly which was there, which would be local, the idea of locality.
A.C.S.P. But immediately after that you have the sovereign action of the Spirit, and then Paul and his company.
J.T. We want to get at just that word about Paul and his company in that section, showing that there was a home, a home for Paul and his influence. So elsewhere in the Acts, we are told that Lydia attended to the things spoken by Paul, Paul had a peculiar place.
J.A.P. As to the men, did you mean to call attention to Niger, which means black, in Acts 13? Where the five men are selected by the Spirit,
J.T. Quite so, Niger may mean that he is a black man, but why should that in any way be a prejudice against him, or the truth that he had?
The dear brethren here would do well to consider whether they are in any way militating against the idea of colour in this meeting.
J.A.P. It says, "And the Spirit said to Philip, approach and join this chariot", Acts 8:29, the Ethiopian eunuch's chariot.
J.T. The Ethiopian eunuch is an excellent example of what we are talking about, the eighth chapter of the Acts. And to go back to the Old Testament, because we might as well look at that on these points, Moses married an Ethiopian woman, and Aaron and Miriam objected to that, they objected seriously to it.
But we must see to it that we have not any such resentment here in this country.
L.H.B. Are you suggesting that insetting out the testimony here in this city, we might overcome the obstacle of racial distinction, which might be in some of our minds?
J.T. I certainly am, that the brethren here might take it to heart; because God will begin in a small way to make way for the coloured race. If God is working in them, they belong to God, and a home ought to be made for them, just as we have it here. The Lord has a home. There ought to be a home in Knoxville for the coloured race if they are Christians.
R.R.T. It says here in verse 1 of chapter 2 that
we started with, "And it was reported that he was at the house". A report like that in regard to conditions here at Knoxville would be very pleasing to God.
J.L.R. We had a coloured sister here breaking bread with us 50 years ago, but she died.
J.W.C. Would personal contact break down this barrier?
J.T. Quite so. Well now I think we had perhaps better proceed because we want to cover the other features in the chapters. And next it says, "And straightway many were gathered together, so that there was no longer any room, not even at the door; and he spoke the word to them". Now this is another thing to take notice of: the Lord spoke the word to them. There was a large number gathered at the door and the Lord spoke the word to them, the word being the medium of the expansion of the truth. And then it says, "And there came to him men bringing a paralytic, borne by four; and, not being able to get near to him on account of the crowd, they uncovered the roof where he was", that is where the Lord was. "And having dug it up they let down the couch on which the paralytic lay. But Jesus, seeing their faith, said to the paralytic, Child, thy sins are forgiven thee". Now this is a wonderful set of statements as to what happened on this occasion, that is to say, the Lord was there and known to be there at home, at home, there were happy home conditions afforded Him. And then there was a
great interest in the Lord Himself. That is another point to take notice of, that He was personally attractive. Note that there were four who had interest in this paralytic, a man who was paralyzed, and he was a sufferer and they had sympathy; the word four would mean that it is universal, there was sympathy universally for this poor man who was a paralytic. All this now should be taken account of in this section before we proceed further.
P.A. If we were in the gain of forgiveness and in the joy of its application to our souls by the Holy Spirit, would it not make a way and room for the different races?
J.T. That is just the point, I think it would.
P.A. It would give us enlargement.
J.T. If you use the word "race", it covers humanity.
P.A. Solomon received the queen of Ethiopia, and she wondered at all the grandeur of Solomon's house, but he did not reject the queen of Ethiopia, he received her.
J.T. Just so. So that we get illustrations of the truth of the New Testament in the Old Testament.
P.A. That is good to consider and that we might get enlargement before the Lord comes. We cannot tell how many years before the Lord comes - I know it will not be many - and the Lord should find us stripped of every prejudice, and everything that pertains to racial lines or national pride.
J.T. That is very good. I am sure all that is most important, it enters into the whole section here. Now we have the paralytic, and the number four indicates the sympathy with the man was universal. If there is a man of that kind in the neighbourhood, the thing is to be sympathetic with him because the Lord takes account of it. He was borne by four, and the Lord took account of it. So that it was the idea of faith brought in to illustrate the whole matter. "And there come men bringing a paralytic, borne by four; and, not being able to get near to him on account of the crowd, they uncovered the roof", showing the interest, the general interest at the moment, which is what we all should take notice of. It says, "And having dug it up they let down the couch on which the paralytic lay. But Jesus, seeing their faith ..."
The idea of faith is now brought in here, which of course is the dispensation. It is the dispensation of faith. And so it says, "But Jesus, seeing their faith, says to the paralytic, Child", He calls him "Child". I want the brethren to notice that. The Lord calls him that, He calls him "Child", He brings him into the family. He is a "fellow-citizen of the saints, and of the household of God", Ephesians 2:19. And then the Lord says further to him, "thy sins are forgiven", that is to say, the principle of the forgiveness of sins is in the whole matter.
P.A. The prejudices of the southern mind have sunk very deep into the southern people,
and it is very difficult to overcome that racial prejudice.
J.T. But we have to face it and overcome it because it is a time of overcoming. The Lord says, "He that overcometh shall inherit all things", Revelation 21:7, it is the time of overcoming.
A.E.M. How interesting your reference is to the term "Child" as establishing the family idea connected with the home. You are going to be at home in the sense that you are of the family.
W.R. Are you suggesting the thought of universal prayer in "four?"
J.T. The word 'four' is the symbol of universalism. There is universal sympathy with the paralyzed man. They are sympathetic with him, I do not know that it is prayer, it is sympathy.
W.R. Well, in connection with our prayer meetings, should we go beyond our local settings in praying for cases of need in other places too?
J.T. Well, quite so. We have the Lord praying here earlier. But the numeral 'four' is universal, universal conditions.
G.H.MacP. So that what started out in a small way in the Lord personally in His ministry is going to fill the universe.
P.A. Is the word 'Child' suggestive of something small to begin with, subjection and affection brought into the home?
J.T. Yes, the only thing to be said is that it is not "little child", we have "little child" in
Matthew. The Lord is called a little child in Matthew. And then we have in John's epistle, "Little children", because the idea is diminutive. But I think "Child" here is to bring out that the Lord had in mind the family. Notwithstanding his paralysis, he is really elevated to the family. That is the Lord's mind.
P.A. Would you say something about the Lord sending this paralytic, saying, "Go to thine own house", etc?
J.T. Just read the whole passage so as to get the full bearing, beginning with verse 5.
P.E.A. "But Jesus, seeing their faith, says to the paralytic, Child, thy sins are forgiven thee. But certain of the scribes were sitting, and reasoning in their hearts, why does this man thus speak? He blasphemes. Who is able to forgive sins except God alone? And straightway Jesus, knowing in his spirit that they are reasoning thus within themselves, said to them, why reason ye these things in your hearts? Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, thy sins are forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy couch and walk? But that we may know that the Son of man has power on earth to forgive sins, he says to the paralytic, to thee I say, arise, take up thy couch and go to thine house. And he rose up straightway, and, having taken up his couch, went out before them all, so that all were amazed, and glorified God, saying, we never saw it thus".
J.T. Now we have a wonderful issue here
from this matter of the paralytic, and how the Lord was entering into it, showing that we must carry sympathy with us. There would be prosperity in the testimony, because it is the God of love entering into this whole matter.
A.C.S.P. Does the section show how difficulties dissolve where there is faith?
J.T. Where there is faith! I am glad to carry that forward because it is the time to bring out the idea of the dispensation now, and the Lord sees their faith, He says, I am going to spread them. The idea of the dispensation is that it is the dispensation of faith. The idea of faith is the leading feature of the gospel of Mark, and the action of it is especially stressed toward the end of the gospel because the Lord intended that it should be, for it is the dispensation of faith. If the servants are to be commissioned, then there must be the increase of faith. We are to spread the idea of faith because we are in that dispensation. Presently the Lord says in the end of John, "Blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed". It is a question of faith and the blessing enters into the matter at hand here. So that it is a time of faith, and the exercise ought to be now that there should be the increase and spread of faith because the dispensation is to be developed. The dispensation that is coming in presently is the dispensation of sight.
P.A. Would you tell us how to distinguish the difference between faith and believing?
J.T. There is not much. Of course Hebrews 11 is the great chapter for faith, walking by faith, but Romans 10 I would commend. Romans 10 is a great scripture to indicate what faith is. Faith is described in that chapter.
P.A. Faith and righteousness and salvation are the three cardinals.
R.R.T. Are the scribes here just the very opposite of that? It says in contrast to faith they were reasoning in their hearts and they were sitting doing nothing. In contrast to that, those that had faith were in movement and getting up on the roof and digging through it.
J.T. That is all very beautiful, and I think the end of this paragraph is glorious too. It says, "So that all were amazed, and glorified God, saying, we never saw it thus". The faith is being extended. So then the next thing is, verse 13, "And he went out again by the sea", that is another subject now that will come in for consideration and we will pay attention to it because this gospel has the sea in mind. "And he went out again by the sea, and all the crowd came to him, and he taught them". We had already that idea of teaching, the Lord is teaching here, He taught them. "And passing by, he saw Levi the son of Alphaeus sitting at the tax-office, and says to him, follow me. And he rose up and followed him". The Lord is now the Objective to be followed. That is another principle to keep before us, that the Lord is to be followed. "What am I going to do?" one would
say; well, follow the Lord, as He says Himself, "Follow me".
G.H.MacP. Would this give us a lead and teach us how to serve if the service of God is to be enriched?
J.T. Quite so, the Lord is directing what we should do, follow the Lord if there is any question.
J.A.P. What does the sea represent?
J.T. It is division. There is to be no sea we are told. In the new earth, there is to be no sea, but there is now. The oceans are spread abroad over the earth. The sea belongs to God. It says of the Lord Jesus that He put His right foot on the sea and His left foot on the land, showing the sea is a predominant thought in the mind of heaven.
J.A.P. Well, I remember the very fine book we have, called "The Abundance of the Seas", and believe this scripture came into it. Is there something positive in the sea now?
J.T. Quite so. We come to the idea of the sea; it is one of the features of the book; we have the idea of the abundance of the seas, what the sea will yield, what the sea itself may yield to us, or them.
J.T. It says, "And he went out again by the sea, and all the crowd came to him, and he taught them". "He taught them", that is a thing to be noted. And then again, "And passing by, he saw Levi the son of Alphaeus sitting at the tax-office, and he says to him, 'Follow me'".
And the next thing is, "And he rose up and
followed him. And it came to pass as he lay at table in his house". Again, "In his house", notice the house, as it were, objectively in the Lord's mind. "As he lay at table", not simply lay at table, but lay at table in his house, that many tax-gatherers and sinners lay at table with Jesus and his disciples; for they were many, and they followed him. And the scribes and the Pharisees, seeing him eating with sinners and tax-gatherers said to his disciples, "Why is it that he eats and drinks with tax-gatherers and sinners?" And Jesus having heard it says to them, "They that are strong have not need of a physician, but those who are ill. I have not come to call righteous men, but sinners". Now this is another principle established in another section of this chapter. He had not come to call righteous people, but sinners. It is a time for calling sinners.
P.A. Levi never reasoned at all in his heart when the Lord spoke to him to follow Him. He obeyed from the heart but the Pharisees never did do anything but reason and argue against the Lord. It is a great thing to be on the side of Levi.
G.H.MacP. What is in your mind about calling sinners?
J.T. The Lord is seeking out sinners, He is come to call sinners. That is to say the gospel is the means by which sinners are to be called, the idea of grace is attached to it, grace is attached to it. "For ye are saved by grace, through faith; and
this not of yourselves; it is God's gift",Ephesians 2:8. It is to bring out what God is doing in grace at the present time.
L.H.B. Is this matter of service being extended now in Levi's house? Extended from the Lord now to Levi and his house. The matter of service now is coming up in connection with Levi's house.
J.T. It is extended to Levi's house. Well, that is good. The thing is fully stated because it says: "And it came to pass as he lay at table in his house", which is Levi's, "that many tax-gatherers and sinners lay at table with Jesus". So that the whole matter of the dispensation is being extended in this house, which is a great matter, the extension of the work of God in this sense. And then it says there were tax-gatherers, persons who gathered taxes, and sinners. They were bad company really, the tax-gatherers are not good company, but then the sinners are there too. It was a general opportunity for gospel testimony, and so the Lord is leading on in it because there were tax-gatherers and sinners who lay at table with him, "With Jesus and his disciples; for they were many, and they followed him". The Lord was not afraid to let them come in and have part at the meal. The Lord did not fear the number of them. If they were to be entertained, He was not afraid of it. They would come in, and the Lord was there to help them spiritually as well as to feed them.
A.E.M. Is there not a suggestion as to where
to begin to work? Levi was a tax-gatherer, evidently able to invite or attract tax-gatherers?
J.T. Just so. And they were under reproach.
We might finish the thought in verses thirteen to the end of seventeen before we have to break up. The scribes and Pharisees come in again as opposers, and they complain because the Lord is eating with sinners and tax-gatherers, and said to His disciples, "Why is it that he eats and drinks with tax-gatherers and sinners?" The Lord comes in with His answer. "And Jesus having heard it says to them, they that are strong have not need of a physician, but those who are ill. I have not come to call righteous men, but sinners". That is the finish of that section.
And then again we have, "And the disciples of John and the Pharisees were fasting; and they come and say to him, why do the disciples of John and the disciples of the Pharisees fast, but thy disciples fast not? And Jesus said to them, can the sons of the Bridechamber fast while the bridegroom is with them? As long as they have the bridegroom with them they cannot fast. But days will come when the bridegroom shall have been taken away from them, and then shall they fast in that day". And then, "No one sews a patch of new cloth on an old garment; otherwise its new filling-up takes from the old stuff, and there is a worse rent. And no one puts new wine into old skins; otherwise the wine bursts the skins, and the wine is poured out, and the skins will be destroyed; but new wine is to be put into
new skins". Now these are all very good instructive thoughts, and I thought we might just finish with this section before we proceed with the third chapter in the afternoon.
W. McK. Is the liberty of the disciples a leading matter in this section? The Lord is at home and the disciples are to share in the liberty that would afford. And the Lord defends that, does He not?
J.T. Yes, well what else have you to say?
W.McK. Well, I was wondering if the idea of the Lord being at home does not afford us peculiar liberty in relation to the truth, and in relation to our sitting together as we are now, and the Lord would maintain that for us.
J.T. Quite so, the Lord would defend it.
J.W.F. Does not the matter of sympathy with what the Lord is doing run through the chapter? That is, first of all in the four men that brought the paralytic, and then in Levi, and then in those that are called sons of the bridegroom, and later on in the last section?
J.T. We will get on to the end of the chapter, to the further thought because we have a further thought after verse 22. The 23rd verse, "And it came to pass that he went on the sabbath through the cornfields". Now what have you got to say about the cornfields?
J.W.F. Our brother mentioned that as the liberty the disciples had while the Lord was with them.
J.T. Very good. We should finish with verse
23, "And it came to pass that he went on the sabbath through the cornfields; and his disciples began to walk on, plucking the ears. And the Pharisees said to him, behold, why do they on the sabbath what is not lawful? And he said to them, have ye never read what David did when he had need and hungered, he and those with him, how he entered into the house of God, in the section of Abiathar the high priest, and ate the shewbread, which is not lawful unless for the priests to eat, and gave even to those that were with him? And he said to them, the sabbath was made on account of man, not man on account of the sabbath; so that the Son of man is Lord of the sabbath also". Now I wonder if the brethren follow all that is to be said in this section before we close.
A.C.S.P. The Lord is bringing in an order of liberty that had never been known before, and He is going to defend it against all comers.
J.T. Very good, the question of liberty.
W.P. Is the dignity of man asserted? "The sabbath was made on account of man". The Lord is asserting that now.
J.T. Quite so, a very good thought.
D.M.H. Does this forbid the idea of legality in connection with the sabbath?
J.T. Quite so, the Pharisees are full of that, you know. But the Lord would set all that aside. He was introducing a new order of things which would be marked by liberty.
J.T. The brethren will have noticed that there is a group of events in this chapter, which is the most severe of any that one can mention, inclusive of the sin against the Holy Spirit. And then another element is the administrative element, the Lord appointing His apostles. But then we have to begin with, as we might say, the beginning and to just look at one event after another so that we may get a full idea of this important chapter. First, we have the Lord entering again into the synagogue. Notice what marked the synagogue, which is a suggestion of religion. "And he entered again into the synagogue, and there was there a man having his hand dried up". We now have to discover what is meant by a dried-up hand. A hand that should be used in the service of God is dried up and therefore rendered useless, and the Lord undertakes to remedy that matter. Many of us may be in this way affected by bodily conditions that interfere with our service. We all are to serve, there is something for each and all of us to do, and we are to do it with our might. In this case, the man's hand was dried up so that he was unable to do what he should do.
A.E.M. Is it very suggestive that the man is called upon to "rise up and come into the midst?"
J.T. Well, I thought that the idea would be to bring the condition into evidence, where it can be discerned and seen. The Lord therefore shows what can be done in this case. But then the terrible opposition that arose at this point is striking. "And he entered again into the synagogue; and there was there", notice the adverb, "a man having his hand dried up. And they watched him". The enemies, "they watched him if he would heal". The enemies were ready to interfere, and to destroy the Lord Himself. This is the most solemn thing that we can speak of. "And they watched him if he would heal him on the sabbath". They were laying a snare for Him and were ready to destroy Him if possible. "That they might accuse him. And he says to the man who had his hand dried up, Rise up and come into the midst". Now then, this is the crisis. "And he says to them, is it lawful on the sabbath to do good or to do evil, to save life or to kill? But they were silent". A very ominous position, and the Lord knew it - "they were silent. And looking around them with anger", I would beg the brethren to notice this - the word is, "Be angry, and do not sin", Ephesians 4:26. There is a possibility of being angry in righteous anger, but then the thing is not to sin, not to allow the working of sin, which we are apt to do if a cause for anger comes up.
A.E.M. In the footnote there is a connection with the word "distressed". 'There is, I apprehend, sorrow for, with an intensive force in it;
not sympathy, which is feeling with, but feeling what a state they were in, with grief for it'.
Ques. Is it so that if a servant of the Lord displays anger or deep feeling, the saints do well to soberly consider what has aroused it?
J.T. Yes, soberly consider what aroused the anger.
Ques. Well, I was thinking of our own locality. If the Lord came into the meeting and was angered, how distressing it would be that we should have part in any conditions which would bring that about.
J.T. He is not properly a left-handed man; a left-handed man can be very useful, but this man is not that, his hand is dried up. Something has happened governmentally that has dried it up, rendered his hand useless. Then the Lord would give us to understand that that can be remedied. There is power to remedy it, there is divine power to remedy a hand that is dried up, that probably had been used in the service of God, but now is not used in the service of God. Therefore we can well count that we can pray for such a case as this, ask God to come in for it. We need the man, we need that man's hand.
A.C.S.P. Does the oft-repeated use of the word 'again' stand in contrast with this dried-up hand? Is it the freshness and life that is marking the Lord's service over and over again in contrast with this man's condition? It comes in many times in these chapter in relation to the Lord's service.
J.T. What the Lord is doing was in contrast to the condition of this man.
A.C.S.P. That is what I was thinking. When things come up again, is it not a great test in service, but the Lord shines?
J.T. Does this not remind us of the character of the gospel of Mark? The Lord is ready to intervene to remedy things. Because there is so much need for help in a man that at one time evidently was helpful. He is now dried up, something has happened in the government of God to render his hand useless, but that hand had been used clearly. The Lord is ready to do something. But then the next thing is the enemy is set against the Lord doing it. The enemy would deprive the saints of a man that had once been useful in the service. The enemy would deprive the people of God of a hand that had been at one time useful. So we have to contend with the enemy's motives, interfering with the work of God.
A.S. Is the man representative of the state of the synagogue?
J.T. Well, just so, but why should he be there? Why should the synagogue refer to current religion, recognized religion in this world? Why should the enemy be allowed to rob the people of God of this hand? And so the solemn thing is that the enemy was ready to do it. In fact, it is said, "They watched him", verse 2; "And they watched him" - that is the enemy in the synagogue -"If he would heal him on the
Sabbath". Well now, that is a very terrible subtle matter - if, if, if -"If he would heal him on the sabbath". That is to say, to ensnare the Lord.
G.H.MacP. Does the end of chapter 2 fit into this exercise? The Son of man is said to be Lord of the sabbath.
J.T. Yes, quite, the Lord Jesus is Lord of the sabbath. The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath. So that the enemy now would interfere with all this, the work of God through Him as we see here. "They watched him" because they suspected that He would do this. "They watched him if he would heal him on the sabbath, that they might accuse him". That is the enemy's power in action, "That they might accuse him". Now this is a terrible thing that we have to deal with in the work of God, the enemy ready to suggest that we do what is wrong. Why should they think so? But they do, it is the enemy's work, it is the character of the enemy's work to interfere with the healing power of God in restoring the hand that had once been used in His service. And the end of the previous chapter is to bring out the dignity of man mentioned this morning, the dignity of man. "The Son of man is lord of the sabbath also". That would be interfered with by the enemy in the opening of this chapter.
J.A.P. Was the attack all the more clever because they sought to use Moses' law against the Lord? Some would use the past ministry against the present ministry and hinder what is
being said now, they would hinder what the Lord would do currently. They watched Him to see what He would do on the sabbath and the Lord was trying to liberate the man.
J.T. Quite so, I am thoroughly with that.
The allusion being to the law of Moses in the book of Exodus. The motive of the enemy was to prevent the Lord from acting in that sense, to relieve the man, to relieve the man's hand.
J.A.P. In line with what you remarked this morning, it says, "We never saw it thus". That is, something new had come in, and we are getting fresh help today, are we not? I mean the Lord was bringing in something new to liberate the saints, and these people were using what was past, what was right in itself, to try and hinder the Lord.
J.T. And then the next thing for us to consider is how we are to meet a matter of this kind at the present time. There is a brother here who, we might say, has been useful in the Lord's service and he is rendered useless, and the Lord is ready to help him. We are ready to help him with our prayers so that he might be again in the service profitably. And so what happened is they watched Him if He would heal on the sabbath. They intended to assert the authority of the law in the Old Testament to prevent this man's hand being healed. And then the next thing is, "And he says to the man who had his hand dried up", notice this, keep that man in mind, the Lord says to the man who had his
hand dried up, "Rise up and come into the midst". The Lord seized the opportunity to show what is available, what can be done, what is available in the service of the Lord, in the restoration of a man who has a dried-up hand, who is rendered useless in his hand. So that the next thing is how are we to intervene if a man that has been useful in the service of God, as in this case, is no longer useful? And now the Lord would say, let us see what can be done for this. The Lord would say, let us see what can be done for this. We say now to ourselves, what can be done in this case that there might be healing? The word 'mended' is used in the New Testament as we may remember in the gospel of Matthew 4:21 and Galatians 6:1. It is a time of mending if there has been interference with the vessel that God has been using and he is no longer usable. How can we mend it? Well, let us see what can be done, for Christianity is available. Christianity is one of the most wonderful things that ever existed. God has brought it in, and it is set up in the assembly in the power of the Spirit. The assembly is the vessel where the work of God may proceed in the power of the Spirit. And so the thing is, let Christianity be shown, let it be shown that there is such a thing as the power of healing, and the power of recovering vessels that had once been used and are no longer usable.
W.P. The assembly is a vessel of salvation. The Lord says in Matthew in this same section,
"But if ye had known what is", what is, present tense, "I will have mercy and not sacrifice",
J.T. Quite so. That is what the Lord is doing, and so He says to the man whose hand was dried up, "Rise up and come into the midst". Now this is going to be an experiment, so to speak.
The Lord would show what Christianity really means, how it is available for mending; that is to say, if a hand is dried up, it can be mended. So that He would bring the whole matter into evidence, and therefore the man has to come into the midst and he does come into the midst.
P.A. The hand is expressive of service, and in this case the whole person is lost use of.
J.T. Just so, God's hand is very much used, the hand of God, Christ is at the right hand of God, and He is there to exercise the whole power of God for recovery. And the hand is the instrument, the part of a man's body that is usable, and the Lord is going to restore it. So that Christianity is workable, it is a real thing. Whatever people may say, Christianity is a real workable thing, and can be availed of at any time.
L.H.B. Would Mark himself be an example of what you are saying?
J.T. Very good. He failed in the work; he went back from the work, we are told, then recovered (Acts 15:38 or 2 Timothy 4:11). So we have this wonderful gospel that we are dealing with
now. It is for us to learn from it how we can be restored; any of us who have perhaps turned aside from the work of God can be restored, there is means of doing it.
R.R.T. Is it permissible to think of what may have caused this dried-up hand? In a medical way, a dried-up hand usually indicates a derangement that has taken place in the head, in the brain, and finally results in loss of power in the hand.
J.T. Perhaps you would now enlarge, according to the wisdom that you have in medicine, how a dried-up hand can be restored. What medicine or human skill can do to restore it. Because God is God and He is ready to help His creatures, He is ready to bring about primary conditions and make them fresh and usable. So now what would you say about that from a medical point of view?
R.R.T. Well, it is usually caused by a clot or the like that has taken place in the brain, and the result of that is an atrophy, a paralysis of the hand and it dried up. It is beyond medical skill to restore it. So it makes it all the more remarkable that such an instance should be used in the scripture.
J.T. Just so. Well then to proceed now on the line of skill of medicines and such things, how can he be made available again so that there might be primary conditions restored? Because the primary conditions of this man were evidently good or useful. Well now, what can
we do in these cases from a medical point of view, or can we do anything in a case like this? Have we not to say we cannot do anything? God must do the thing. God must do it, and we have recourse to what God can do, so that we do not give up.
R.R.T. Well, that is what I thought. It is beyond the power that was in the synagogue. It is only through the Lord and our access to the case through Him, would you say?
J.T. Just so, and I am not making any reflection on the medical profession, but in the scriptures, especially in Matthew and Mark, the physicians have proved, and acknowledged, to be unable to meet the situation. She "suffered much", one said, "under many physicians",
Mark 5:26; she suffered many things from the physicians themselves. Well, why should that be? The matter therefore is dealt with divinely, that we can have recourse to God in meeting matters. If medical skill fails us, we can have recourse to God Himself. And He can do what medical skill cannot do.
J.L.R. "All things are possible with God",
J.T. That is very good. So that we are thankful for the doctors, but, at the same time, we are thankful to be able to say that they are with us, they are not interfering, they are ready to join in with what God is doing, they are not enforcing or suggesting anything from themselves. In a case which only God can meet, then
the doctor is ready to join in and help in it too, and rejoice in it.
R.R.T. What I was thinking was that this is a deeper thing than what may appear on the surface. It just appeared that his hand was dried up, but the matter goes deeper than that, and is it not often true that what appears on the surface has its roots deeper in the mind or in the inner being of the man, and that needs to be healed, the whole man needs to be healed.
J.T. So that what the Lord had in mind is that He is going to make an example in this case, that He can do it, others cannot do it, but He can do it. Of course, the Lord is the Lord, and He can undertake to do anything, as job said to God, "I know that thou canst do everything", Job 42:2. Then, of course, the next thing is whether the brethren are ready to have recourse to God. If everything else fails, have recourse to God. And then to be sure that it is God that is doing it and not human skill, that God can do it and is doing it, God can do everything.
A.S. Would it be right to say that the healing took place through obeying the word of the Lord?
J.T. Well, just so. The Lord intended to use the thing, to make it a public matter to show what can be done in Christianity, for Christianity is available publicly. We can rely upon it, not give way to the devil's suggestions that it is a failure, that Christianity is a failure; it is not a
failure. God can do everything.
E.E. What did the Lord have in His mind when He said, "Rise up and come into the midst?" The emphasis seems to be on the midst.
J.T. That the thing should become public, what Christianity really is, that God has brought it about. He brought it about on His own account that the whole world should know that Christianity is not a failure, but a real usable thing that can be counted on for recovery and in the testimony. There is a testimony in it that every believer should take notice of. There are men who have spoken of the mistakes of Moses. Think of the very suggestion of that, men saying in infidelity, 'the mistakes of Moses'. Moses made no mistakes in that sense. Christianity is not a mistake at all, it is a reality, and available positively for the recovery of mankind in the gospel.
P.A. Does this matter of obedience of faith come in to show that man has to obey a command of the Lord, and the Lord does the work itself?
J.T. The Lord says here, "Rise up", in verse 3. "And he says to the man who had his hand dried up, Rise up and come into the midst".
God intends now to show that Christianity is not a failure, it is reality, and the means for recovery in the divine mind in humanity. And we should be confident of it. We are here today, for instance. If anybody wants to know why we are here, what is involved in our being here, it is
that God is God and God is with us, the Spirit of God is with us. "I am with you all the days", the Lord says, "until the completion of the age", Matthew 28:20. There is no cessation at all, the work of God goes on, right to the end of the age. And so the Lord is with us here today, and we can go on together and be assured that these meetings are not valueless, they are effective for what God intends to do; that is, to bring in restoration where it is needed so that Christianity is surely to be a reality.
Ques. "Into the midst" is where Christ is to be so that if we are meeting properly here we have Christ really in our midst, do we not?
J.T. Just so, the Lord is in the midst of His own, of course, but in this case - in the third verse - "And he says to the man who had his hand dried up, rise up and come into the midst". Well, what is the midst? Well, the truth is that the devil was there also, watching to attack the Lord Jesus. That is a solemn thing because the enemy's idea is to bring out that Christianity is a failure. It is not a failure, it is doing what it is intended to do by God.
G.H.MacP. Does the power you referred to in Mark suggest deliverance from the power of Satan?
J.T. Mark himself is an example of recovery so that what we are dealing with now is recovery, and God would bring it into evidence that there is a power of recovery among the Lord's people. The Lord says, "I am with you
all the days, until the completion of the age", Matthew 28:20. So that Christianity goes on to the end of the age as a testimony, a testimony from God as to His love and goodness and mercy to men.
P.A. Does Mark who failed become an example of energy and buoyancy after he is recovered?
J.T. Very good. It is just that, because he says in effect that the thing has to be done and done at once and done well; that is what is meant, and it is being done too.
W.R. He needed his hand to write the gospel, did he not?
J.T. Mark needed it, quite so.
R.R.T. Is the evidence of the power that you speak of in the sixth verse, that the Pharisees went out? They could not remain in the presence of such power.
J.T. That shows the power was there. It was the testimony as it is today, even in a meeting like this it is testimony to the power of God that is available, according to the Lord's own promise, "I am with you all the days". And so He says in Matthew 18, "For where two or three are gathered together unto my name, there am I in the midst of them", verse 20, not in the midst, but "in the midst of them", certain persons. Here we are not told exactly who were in the midst, but undoubtedly they included enemies of Christ. But then in Matthew 18, the Lord speaks of certain persons who were not enemies, they were real people, and He can make them into a
testimony to Himself. So that these meetings that we are dealing with now are very real. Christianity is a real matter, and we are dealing with it, and not only in the gospel, but dealing with it in the assembly, this great matter of the assembly where God is known in power.
A.E.M. Do you think the enemy discerned that if this power was not destroyed, his own kingdom would be destroyed? So they "took counsel against him how they might destroy him".
J.T. Very good. And so we get here in verse 7, "And Jesus withdrew with his disciples to the sea", to the sea. The whole matter of the man's hand is in question. Other things are to be done and it extends across the sea. That is to say, the power of God is not interfered with by the sea, the power of God is effective across the sea. And so it says, "Jesus withdrew with his disciples to the sea". That is, we are now dealing with the matter of the sea, and the Lord has power over the sea.
G.H.MacP. What would be suggested in having power over the sea? I was thinking of another passage where "even the wind and the sea obey him", Mark 4:41.
J.T. "Obey him", quite so. We will find the sea to be mentioned in several places in this gospel as we may go through it. The Lord Jesus, it says, "withdrew with his disciples to the sea". Now He has got His disciples and we should note they can do things too. And therefore later
in the chapter, it says, "And he goes up into the mountain, and calls whom he himself would, and they went to him. And he appointed twelve that they might be with him, and that he might send them to preach, and to have power to heal diseases, and to cast out demons". The Lord intended to convey that there is power on earth to forgive sins (Mark 2:10). God's mercy extends to men and He is going to increase the power for all this in the appointment of these twelve apostles, that is the next thing, beginning with verse 7.
P.A. Would diseases indicate a chronic trouble with people? The word disease sometimes speaks of sicknesses that are acute troubles. These things are always present, acute and chronic troubles, but chronic are more difficult than acute.
J.T. Just so. What we want now is to see the power that is available according to verse 7. And the Lord withdrew Himself with His disciples to the sea. And then the next thing is that He is going to appoint these twelve men to do the same work that He has been doing. He is going to impart the power to them to do the same work that He has been doing. That is to continue, and it is to continue in an administrative sense in twelve men.
P.A. Was Matthias in His mind at that time, the last appointed of the twelve apostles? He was present, no doubt.
J.T. No doubt, the complete number,
because the number must be made up, that was the idea. They cast lots to make up the number, and it was made up. The lot decided that Matthias was to be the last apostle among the twelve. But he was not the last apostle because Paul would be coming in after that. But at the same time the number twelve is very important because it is an administrative number, and it is administrative to bring out what the work of God is, first in Christ and now in the saints by the Spirit.
A.S. I was wondering if that would be the answer to the counsel that the Pharisees took against Him to destroy Him, that the Lord's answer was to appoint the twelve.
J.T. The counsel was a devilish attempt to destroy the Lord Jesus, which is terrible. It cannot be done. And then another thing comes in that is full of terribleness in the chapter, that is; the sin against the Holy Spirit, never to be forgiven, not in this age nor the age to come. So we have before us now, the great powers of evil and the powers of good to meet it. The powers of good are exercised by the Lord Jesus including the principle of twelve, "he appointed twelve", twelve men.
J.A.P. The first thing said about them is, "And he appointed twelve that they might be with Him".
J.T. As with Him, they are to learn how and where He did it.
J.A.P. In the Acts of the apostles when Peter
and John made their testimony, they took account of them as being "with Jesus" chapter 4:13.
P.A. The blasphemy against the Holy Spirit n Mark is more drastic than in Matthew or I Luke.
J.T. Yes, showing that God is meeting the thing, that God is meeting it administratively and in doing so, He is making much of the Holy Spirit, which He has done recently amongst the people of God here in this world. As the Spirit of God is recognized, the great work continues.
A.E.M. I notice that the second thing said about them is that they were sent to preach.
J.T. First, they are to be with Him, and then, that He might send them to preach.
A.E.M. And then, to have power to heal diseases. The healing would not be much use without the preaching.
A.A.T. Could you think of a person being sent without a gift?
J.T. Well, I would say it is a question of the word "sent". Isaiah says, "Send me", chapter 6:8, "send me". So that the thought was that someone was to be sent. The work had to be done, and it was done; and one proposes to be stint, offers himself to be sent. You want to bring Out the idea of gift?
A.A.T. What I had in mind was that some brothers probably would like to serve and go Out, but the question is, Are they sent?
J.T. Now let me see what we are dealing with. Verse 13 says, "And he goes up into the
mountain, and calls whom he himself would, and they went to him. And he appointed twelve that they might be with him, and that he might send them to preach, and to have power to heal diseases, and to cast out demons. And he gave Simon the surname of Peter; and James the son of Zebedee, and John the brother of James, and he gave them the surname of Boanerges, that is, Sons of thunder; and Andrew, and Philip, and Bartholomew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus, and Simon the Cananaean, and Judas Iscariote, who also delivered him up". Now you can see that the Lord appointed these men and gave them gifts because they were to go out and preach. They could not preach if they were not gifted to preach. They were sent because they were able to preach. The Lord sent them because they were able to represent Him in preaching. And so it is today. If the preaching is to go on, the Lord is represented in the preaching, He gave them power to do it. And so it is done. There is preaching going on all the time.
W. McK. Does chapter 6:7 show that the system was functioning effectively? It says, "And he calls the twelve to him; and he began to send them out ... and they went forth and preached that they should repent; and they cast out many demons, and anointed with oil many infirm, and healed them", verses 12 and 13.
D.M.H. "And he goes up into the mountain",
as if Christianity is a system outside and above all that is currently around them.
J.T. Quite so. The Lord goes up into the mountain, the mountain is the place of power, it suggests power. He went where he could exercise power.
J.W.C. Is there some difference here in the idea of a name? The Lord gives some a surname. There were some who retained the name they already had.
J.T. Well, the idea of being given a name is dignity. A person who has power to give a name is dignity, and of course the Lord has this supremely. Our names are written in heaven. The Lord has written them there, I would say, He has power to give a name. No doubt everyone of us has a name. It is a great matter, the question of names, and the apostles are examples of that. The variety of names even is striking here, as if the Lord would indicate to all that He had power to do these things. So that the names are the gifts, according to Ephesians. "There is one body and one Spirit, as ye have been also called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in us all. But to each one of us has been given grace according to the measure of the gift of the Christ. Wherefore he says, having ascended up on high, he has led captivity captive, and has given gifts to men. But that He ascended, what is it but that he also descended
into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same who has also ascended up above all the heavens, that he might fill all things; and he has given some apostles, and some prophets, and some evangelists, and some shepherds and teachers, for the perfecting of the saints; with a view to the work of the ministry, with a view to the edifying of the body of Christ; until we all arrive at the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, at the full grown man, at the measure of the stature of the fulness of the Christ", Ephesians 4:4 - 13. You get some instruction there as to the matter of gift and what it is intended to be and to effect.
A.A.T. I can see distinctly that a gift is from on high and the servants are qualified with the assistance of the Spirit to serve and I quite understand that a brother would be ineffective without a gift.
J.T. Do you see that the gifts come down from above? They are sent down from heaven, and they are here for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, until we all arrive at the unity of the faith, at the knowledge of the Son of God, at the full grown man. That is the great intent of the coming down of the gifts. How dignified they are.
G.H.MacP. It is wonderful to think of the number twelve in Mark's gospel. In spite of the breakdown, Mark, as recovered, uses the number twelve.
J.T. Yes, quite so. I do not think we need to
go further on this. But then there is this matter of appointment. Appointment is like God's official action. It is said, verse 14, "And he appointed twelve", "He appointed twelve that they might be with him, and that he might send them to preach, and to have power to heal diseases and to cast out demons". And then he gives a list of the names, of the change of names given to these apostles.
J.W.F. Did you have in mind that Ephesians corresponded with what we have here in the change of names, in that the person is named according to his gift in Ephesians?
J.T. Yes, just so, very good. For "the work of the ministry", the most dignified works in Ephesians you can get anywhere, the divine appointment of the gifts in Ephesians.
J.W.F. "We has given some apostles, and some prophets".
G.H.MacP. How would the appointment work out today?
J.T. There are none now; there are no apostles today. The Lord has taken them all, but we shall see them later.
G.H.MacP. I was thinking of the word "appointment".
J.T. Oh, the appointment - the work of God?
Oh, I should say that the work of God is carried on in that sense. The Lord is pleased to take up men and qualify them to carry on with His work.
Although there is not the
number twelve of the apostles, there is power and the authority of the Spirit in the ministry?
P.A. You said something this morning about how many, fifty years ago, went out preaching the gospel. It was a day of necessity for it, perhaps, and one hundred years ago, still more.
J.T. There were men in those days that classified themselves as evangelists, and we hardly ever hear that word used today. They used to come - alas! one has to say it - they used to come and object to the truth of the ministry as it was rendered through such men as Mr. Stoney. These men used to object to them or somewhat depreciate what they would minister.
P.A. Is that why in 2 Timothy 4 Paul charges Timothy; he does not tell him he is an evangelist, but "do the work of an evangelist". Is that wide open to us today?
J.T. Oh, I think so. God would surely help us if we sincerely sought help from Him to carry on the whole work so that there might be evangelists, men that changed the lives of other men. "He that brings back a sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death and shall cover a multitude of sins", James 5:20. That shows what a man can do.
R.M. Would the mountain and the appointment and being with Him suggest elevation connected with the preaching?
J.T. Very good, because the Lord went up to a mountain as you remember in Matthew 5; it is
similar to this, He went up and sat down and began to teach; the disciples came to Him and He taught them, so the elevation is there, and the Lord used it.
R.M. I used the word "elevation" in regard to the dignity and elevation that is proper to the glad tidings and those who preach them.
W.R. The apostle Paul says, "We are ambassadors therefore for Christ". 2 Corinthians 5:20. Is that the same thought?
J.T. Quite so. That was an apostle who said that. No one would say that today, I am sure.
W.R. An ambassador is an appointed person.
J.T. Quite so, a representative.
J.A.P. Would it seem from 1 Corinthians 12 that there could be no gif t outside the assembly? It says, "God has set certain in the assembly", verse 28.
J.T. Yes, quite so. The gifts were put in the assembly for a definite purpose. Well, now, we might as well proceed to the end of the chapter.
Having appointed the apostles, then we have end of verse 19, "And they come to the house", that is, the Lord is with them. "And again a crowd comes together, so that they cannot even eat bread. And his relatives having heard of it went out to lay hold on him, for they said, He is out of his mind. And the scribes who had come down from Jerusalem said, He has Beelzebub, and, by the prince of the demons he casts out demons". That is what the enemy, the scribes,
attributed to the Lord Jesus, terrible attack. "And having called them to him, he said to them in parables, how can Satan cast out Satan? And if a kingdom has become divided against itself, that kingdom cannot subsist. And if a house has become divided against itself, that house cannot subsist. And if Satan rise up against himself, and is divided, he cannot subsist, but has an end. But no one can, having entered into his house, plunder the goods of the strong man unless he first bind the strong man, and then he will plunder his house. Verily I say unto you, that all sins shall be forgiven to the sons of men", - now this is a question of the sin against the Holy Spirit - "and all the injurious speeches with which they may speak injuriously; but whosoever shall speak injuriously against the Holy Spirit, to eternity has no forgiveness; but lies under the guilt of an everlasting sin". This is one of the most terrible things we can speak of. But yet it is a fact that it does exist, and will undoubtedly for some time exist, but it will come to an end, God will bring to an end all opposition to the Holy Spirit. So it says again in the 30th verse, "Because they said, He has an unclean spirit". The enemies said the Lord Jesus had an unclean spirit. This matter is one the most terrible things that can be thought of, the sin against the Holy Spirit. And God has brought forward truth as to the Holy Spirit during recent times, and God is blessing it in the ministry and we should take heed to it and see
that the ministry comes forth intelligently and accurately, and use the written ministry if necessary that we might understand.
Ques. Is it not wonderful that the twelve come in first, before the sin against the Holy Spirit is mentioned? Would it not suggest that as we come into the assembly, we will be preserved from having any part in the sin against the Spirit?
J.T. Just so, as we come into the assembly, very good word that is, because that is where the power lies. The assembly is the vessel of the Holy Spirit, we might say, at the present time.
D.M.H. I have noticed in your ministry that you said this passage is a solemn warning to the clergy.
J.T. Quite so, terrible thing. Mr. Darby said, "The notion of a clergyman is dispensationally the sin against the Holy Spirit". Have you heard that? Terrible thing.
D.M.H. Yes, I have read the tract; we all need to read it.
J.T. Yes, quite so. The time will be gone presently. I thought we ought to read from the 31st verse - "And his brethren and his mother come, and standing without sent to him calling him. And a crowd sat around him". One would call attention to this word here - the crowd sat around about Him. It is a circuit, the Lord sat in the circuit. The crowd sat around about Him, a beautiful touch. And they said to him, "Behold,
thy mother and thy brethren seek thee without. And he answered to them, saying, who is my mother or my brethren? And looking around in a circuit" - again look at this word circuit - "And looking around in a circuit at those that were sitting around him" - a beautiful thought, sitting around the Lord Jesus in a circuit. "He says, Behold my mother and my brethren; for whosoever shall do the will of God, he is my brother, and sister, and mother". This passage closes the chapter, and I think we do well to look into it because it shows that we cannot rely on natural relationships, we cannot rely on these at all. If we are to be bound up together, it must be in spiritual relations, or it is useless, the whole matter is useless. Natural relationship is of no value unless it lies in spiritual relations.
W.T. In the last verse He says, "He is my brother, and sister, and mother". Why does He link the masculine and feminine there together?
J.T. Well, it shows the whole thing is put together as to what the Lord regards as His brethren. This is what He regards as His brethren, He puts them all together, "Behold my mother and my brethren".
A.E.M. He puts the brother before the mother.
J.T. Yes. They are all put together. It is a matter of the way the Lord treats the thing; He puts them all together, as it were to say, this is the whole matter. That as far as my relations, my relations feminine-wise, they must be spiritual. He tells us what the masculine may be, but they
must be spiritual; nothing else avails at all in natural relationship. We are not to count on it.
G.H.MacP. Does this suggest that He brings us into the atmosphere of home conditions in which He Himself is in chapter two?
J.A.P. Is there a similar thought in Romans 16, "Salute Rufus ... and his mother and mine", verse 13? Do you think that is a spiritual allusion?
J.T. Well, it is a spiritual reference by the apostle Paul. He would never fail to recognize an identity of that kind. He was very tender, very fatherly in that sense.
A.E.M. So this is the most awful chapter of opposition to this wonderful service, but the service triumphs.
J.T. I think that is wonderful. The service triumphs, and we are in that, thank God, a good many of us here today. It is a simple way, but we are in that.
W.R. It is remarkable that he closes with the thought of the Lord's mother in view of the place that she has with some today.
J.T. That is a blasphemous thing that has been said, the thing is most terrible, that she is thought of as going up to heaven, going up to heaven bodily, an awful thing. It is one of the most terrible things that I have ever heard of or that anybody has heard of. Even the Church of England denounces it. The Romish clergy are putting it forward, and set a day apart last
November to announce it; it is a terrible thing that has been announced by the Romish church.
A.C.R. Does the Lord imply here that His spirit is the Holy Spirit? Verse 30 - "Because they said, He has an unclean spirit?" But then He says they were speaking injuriously against the Holy Spirit. Does He infer there that His spirit is the Holy Spirit?
J.T. Well, what does it say? What I have just read says, "But whosoever shall speak injuriously against the Holy Spirit, to eternity has no forgiveness". Is that not clear enough? It is the Holy Spirit.
A.C.R. What I was asking is when they say He has an unclean Spirit, He says they are speaking against the Holy Spirit. Is the Lord's spirit the Holy Spirit?
J.T. Well, now, we have to stop and think about this because it involves very much. There is no dual personality in Christ at all, there is only one Person implied, there are not two Persons. He Himself is His own Spirit, He has not a spirit like you have or I have. The Lord Himself is His own Spirit. When He speaks of His own spirit, He is that Himself.
A.C.R. Could I refer to verse 8 of chapter 2, it says, "Straightway Jesus, knowing in his spirit ..." I was still trying to get clear as to whether the Lord's spirit is the Holy Spirit.
J.T. Well, it is not. It is His own spirit that is in mind, His own spirit, that is the Lord Himself. He is His own spirit. He has not two
spirits, He is His own spirit. That is a very remarkable thing to understand, and I think the brethren will do well to look into it because there is no dual personality in Christ at all. He is only Himself, He is a divine Person himself, He became incarnate. He is a divine Person, He has not a human spirit at all as we speak. He is His own Spirit; when it speaks of His spirit, it is Himself.
P.A. Otherwise He would be a creature, but it is blasphemy to say that against the Lord Jesus.
J.T. Very good. It will not do at all, it is blasphemous; therefore I believe the brethren will do well to look into it, this whole matter of the spirit that the Lord Jesus has. He said to His Father, "Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit", Luke 23:46, that is Himself. He has not got two spirits, it is Himself. He is Himself His spirit. Now I do not know whether what I am saying is right in your mind.
A.E.M. Clearly, it is very good, but it is very little understood among the brethren.
J.T. Yes, well, I hope the brethren will just take it to heart because we are dealing with a divine matter, a holy divine matter. The Lord has not got two spirits, He is Himself His own spirit.
A.E.M. "God is a spirit", John 4:24.
J.T. That is what I say exactly.
W. McK. With reference to the Lord being His own spirit, would Paul's word to the Corinthians come in - "the last Adam a quickening
spirit", 1 Corinthians 15:45?
J.T. Quite so, "The last Adam a quickening spirit". That is what He is, He Himself. There are not two, there is only one.
J.D.T. And again in the second epistle he says, "Now the Lord is the Spirit", 2 Corinthians 3:17.
J.T. Yes, and "where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty", 2 Corinthians 3:17.
EDITORS' NOTE: Readers interested in pursuing this holy subject further are referred to Ministry by James Taylor, New Series, Volume 48, pages 182 - 183. See the following extract.
Luke 21:19; 1 Thessalonians 4:4
These short verses are selected from the Lord's own words and also from the words of His great servant Paul; they deal first with our souls and secondly with our bodies. There is also a third great component part of man - his spirit, which shall have a place in my remarks; but I am thinking particularly of our souls and our bodies. Our spirits have the greatest place, being first mentioned in the order in which the Spirit refers to our three component parts: "Your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming to our Lord Jesus Christ". Our spirits are mentioned first. Evidently the greatest component part of man is his spirit. He gets it directly from God according to Ecclesiastes, and the Lord alludes to it as to
Himself. He commended His spirit to His Father, a most impressive reference to the perfection of His manhood, not that He had a spirit other than Himself. Whilst He was really Man, He was uniquely so, having existence before His manhood, which does not apply to any of us. Becoming Man, He is Himself His Spirit, for he tells the thief that he should be with Him in paradise. They were both going there that day, not through resurrection, but through disembodiment for the moment, but they were both men in that sense. Jesus was as really man as the thief, having a spirit as a man, too, but it was Himself. Coming into manhood He became His own spirit, taking on other component parts of humanity. Personally He never ceases to be God, but yet He is Man, but His Spirit is Himself, as my spirit is myself, but I receive my spirit from God. He was God and came into humanity here. He was personally a divine Person and became His own spirit in manhood, so that it was Himself. "Today shalt thou be with me in paradise".
I refer to this to make the matter clear as to Christ, so that we should not have the erroneous thought that He had a spirit besides Himself.
Incarnation is the thought presented in scripture; that is, "the Word became flesh" - divine Person taking human condition. He was His own spirit, and yet as in manhood, He was really Man. He felt as we do, sin apart, committed His spirit unto God, to His Father;
as Stephen did in committing his spirit to Jesus, saying, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit". You can see therefore how great the thought of spirit is in manhood, especially in Christ. It is Himself. It is inscrutable that He should be so compressed, and it touches the heart, but He never ceases to be Himself. He is Himself always. Yet coming into manhood He compresses Himself and speaks as a man, feels as a man, using the words "My spirit", and "My soul", and "My body". He "emptied Himself, taking a bondman's form", Philippians 2:7
Referring to our "whole spirit, and soul, and body", what is important for us all, in view of what has been remarked, is to understand the analysis described in Romans 7, by which we are enabled to discern inwardly the difference between each- what the spirit is and what the soul is. The body is simple, it is material, but the difference between soul and spirit is not so simple; and in addition to that the mind, and other elements in us are subsidiary to what I am saying. The three main thoughts are the spirit, the soul, and the body, and the analysis in Romans 7 enables us to discern them. The one who describes it apparently went through it before he had the Holy Spirit, but now it is by the Holy Spirit that we are enabled to make the analysis. It is our privilege to do so now. The matter has been gone through experimentally at least by one, and the facts are stated in the clearest manner.
J.T. The proposal in what has been read is that, there being so many young people here, it would be especially profitable that the subject of the Lord's supper should come before us at this time. We feel that when we are together in this way that in principle it is the general idea of the revelation of God that is before us, the truth, the whole truth as to Christianity is before us. To this end, it is necessary that the Lord's supper should have a great place in all these gatherings, the three-day gatherings. So much enters into this chapter that will help us, parents especially as to their young ones. As, for instance, when should a young person take part in the Lord's supper? This is a matter that very often comes up, and it is most important that young people should take up the sense of responsibility as to the Lord's supper because the Lord has Himself instituted the thought. It is not as if it were from the Old Testament, it is what the Lord Himself has proposed.
A.E.M. A wholly new thing in that sense.
J.T. Just so. A wholly new idea. What is around us is very largely a question of what is current in Christendom without the special idea of what the Lord desires - the Lord Himself, and what refers to Himself, namely His body, the Lord's body in the assembly. The assembly is
down here and is to be usable from the Lord's side for His purposes, for what refers to Him.
That should be the great thought of everyone of us, what refers to Christ.
A.A.T. Why in Acts is it not the Lord's supper that is emphasized, but the breaking of bread?
J.T. Are you distinguishing between the Lord's supper and the breaking of bread?
A.A.T. No. The breaking of bread, that expression, "the breaking of bread" is used a great deal in the Acts. Is it not the Lord's supper?
J.T. The breaking of bread is something that we can partake of, something that we all can have a part in, in the exercise of our love for one another. The Lord Himself says, "By this shall all know that ye are disciples of mine, if ye have love amongst yourselves", John 13:35. And, of course, the Lord's supper must enter into that, and that is why we proposed this chapter at this time.
P.A. Do you mean that the breaking of bread would substantially prove that we love one another, being one loaf, is that it?
J.T. Just so. "The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of the Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?" 1 Corinthians 10:16. There is the idea of blessing entering into the Lord's supper.
A.E.M. In partaking of the Lord's supper, do we not confess His authority? The dominical
J.T. Very good. I am glad you use the word 'dominical' because it may not have entered into many minds, but it is very important to have that because the idea is that dominion that belongs to Christ.
G.H.MacP. Does that take us out of our local setting and give us to understand what is universal in principle in the assembly?
J.T. Quite so. The Lord's authority must be universal; and therefore we should be subject to Him, but also we are enjoined to be subject one to another.
P.A. Is the Lord's love authoritative love? You could not separate the one from the other, could you? "Lord Jesus", for instance.
J.T. Yes, "Lord Jesus". It is a beautiful expression, conveying to us our innate respect for the Lord Himself, and His love enters into His response to us in that sense. He loves us, He loved the assembly and gave Himself for the assembly. So that we have the greatest and fullest thought as to the love that exists between the Lord and His people, the assembly. He says, "This is my body, which is for you". Each of us will just have to look into that as to what it means, that the Lord's body is for us; that is, for the assembly. His body is said to be the assembly; in fact it is formally stated so, Ephesians 1:22 - 23. And therefore every young man and young woman ought to be concerned about it, that they should have part in it.
A.E.M. Was it your thought to say anything as to the verses dealing with the matter of headship as leading up to the Supper?
J.T. I thought we should; in fact, it is involved there. So that we might resume and repeat what is said in chapter 11, verse 1, "Be my imitators, even as I also am of Christ. Now I praise you ..." That leads now to the thought of praise, the Lord praising us. It is very remarkable how the apostle takes up the thought of praising the saints, that we are to be praised. If we are to be praised! The Lord makes it clear that He values us. He attaches great value to our remembrance of Him. This do for a calling of me to mind. It is a mental matter to begin with, not exactly a heart matter, but a mental matter, the mind.
A.E.M. That is a very important statement, I think, calling attention to the mind as entering into the act of remembrance.
J.T. Very good. One has often thought of it in that way. The mind is brought into it. The mind is so stressed, for a calling of me to mind.
Ques. Did you have in mind that every young believer should be thoroughly acquainted with this chapter as a matter of instruction to be orderly in participating in the Supper?
J.T. Quite so. Especially the young people, that it might be understood that they are taught, that it is not a mere creed we are going on with, not a mere man's way of doing things, but what has been taught. We are taught of God to love
one another, and other things like that, so that this chapter is peculiarly a matter of teaching as regards the Lord's supper.
Ques. Would you say then that desiring to break bread is not just to be a matter of the emotions, but a result of light coming into the soul?
J.T. Just so, and so the word is, "We have the mind of Christ", 1 Corinthians 2:16. We have it, that is Christians have the mind of Christ, that is the thinking faculty, and the Lord is calling upon us to use it now. He would call upon all of us here, but especially young people who are not breaking bread, to begin to break bread as acknowledging the Lord's rights over them, because the Lord is saying that these matters are His, that He is the Lord, that He is our Lord, "Worship thou Him", Psalm 45:11. There is no other authority really that we are to bow down to than the Lord Jesus. Of course, we bow down to God's authority and that, of course, brings up the thought of the three divine Persons, that They are One, that the Three comprise what is owned as to the Lord. The three divine Persons are brought into the whole matter that there is one God, one Lord, one faith, one baptism.
G.H.MacP. Does the Lord Jesus have a unique place at the Supper as being the divine Person who gave Himself for the assembly?
J.T. Well, clearly, that is what is in mind, that is what is implied in proposing this wonderful chapter that deals with the whole subject
of the Lord's supper. And there is responsibility attached to it, and hence we find that what they were doing in Corinth was not it, showing that we may be going on with something professedly for the Lord and yet it is not it, we are deceived and deceiving others.
J.A.P. Are we to be encouraged to instruct our children in our houses about these things?
J.T. Just so, if we have been baptized; I suppose every brother and sister ought to have their children baptized, and on the household principle. Then the next thing is, are they ready for the Lord's supper? Baptism is a question of death, but the Lord's supper is also a question of death, for the Lord Jesus died for us. He died for our sins according to the scriptures. He loved the assembly and gave Himself for the assembly.
J.A.P. In Deuteronomy 6, "When thy son shall ask thee in time to come, saying, what are the testimonies, and the statutes, and the ordinances, which Jehovah our God hath commanded you?" verse 29. Would the Lord's supper be that for us now, that the Lord has commanded that for us?
J.T. Exactly, showing how the Old Testament is carried down into the New and how they coalesce. There is one idea throughout the scriptures on these points.
R.R.T. In the remembrance of the Lord, we are calling Him to mind. In the instructions given we would observe what the apostle had in mind from the Lord Himself. It says, "ye are
mindful of me; and that as I have directed you, ye keep the directions".
J.T. Therefore, that would pass on to those who minister, those who minister as sent of the Lord, because the ministry must be based on the Lord's authority. The Lord has authority to send, to send anyone. So the chapter here indicates that it is the Lord's supper and we should do it for a remembrance of Him. It is a universal idea. What we have done today in Knoxville, for instance, is a universal idea. It spreads everywhere, while only a few do it, of course, but nevertheless the idea is there that Christ is set over all things. As He said Himself, the Father had given all things to be in His hand. He is with us to the end of the age, the whole dispensation is before us and the Supper must be observed to answer to His mind.
J.W.F. I was wondering if it would not be necessary for us who do break bread to be consistently governed by the light and truth regarding the Supper so that the young might learn what is right and proper.
J.T. Just so. Then another thing that in a peculiar way enters into our subject is the second chapter of the book of Genesis. I want to point out the difference between the composition of the man and the woman, that the man is made of clay and the woman is made out of a rib of the man. If we look at the second chapter of Genesis, we see how this is worked out. How the thought of the Lord's supper implies all these
matters that we are speaking of. Chapter 2 of Genesis beginning at the twenty first verse, "And Jehovah Elohim caused a deep sleep to fall upon Man; and he slept. And he took one of his ribs and closed up flesh in its stead. And Jehovah Elohim built the rib that he had taken from Man into a woman; and brought her to Man. And Man said, This time it is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh: this shall be called Woman, because this was taken out of a man. Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and cleave to his wife, and they shall become one flesh. And they were both naked, Man and his wife, and were not ashamed", verses 21 - 23.
Well, I thought to suggest this passage because it enters so directly into our subject this afternoon; that is to say, the idea of the Lord's supper, the idea of man first and then the idea of the woman and how the man is formed out of the clay as we see in the first chapter, and how the woman is made out of a rib that is taken out of his side. There is perfect unity, perfect oneness in the thought of the Lord's supper, perfect oneness leading up to the full thought of Christ and the assembly in a spiritual sense. When we go to heaven, there will be individuality, of course, each one will go; at the same time, the Lord's supper involves the body, the body which is a great matter divinely, and we will have to understand that the body of Christ will be seen in heaven, and we being part of it.
G.H.MacP. Would you suggest that in the rib we have something concrete in our minds at the Supper, as the assembly is out of Christ?
J.T. That is right, something concrete in that sense. What we are touching on implies that the man and the woman are one. They shall be one flesh, they are one flesh. The oneness is a great matter in Christianity and that is what we have in mind this afternoon, and the brother and the sister, as it were, the man and the woman, are one flesh.
P.A. By what you say it would seem that you hold that the body of Christ is not a provisional idea; you say that the body will be seen in heaven, the oneness of Christ and the assembly.
J.T. Surely, because He comes in relation to that, and we come with Him. The word here we read just now - and Jehovah "took one of his ribs and closed up flesh in its stead", one of the ribs and closed the flesh in its stead. "And Jehovah Elohim built", built, this is the first time we have the word "built", but it is the built in this sense. The building is like the assembly, the assembly is built, it is a structure, it is a formation in the sense of a structure. Jehovah Elohim, it says, "Jehovah Elohim built the rib that he had taken from Man into a woman". Notice the word Man is written with a capital, showing that it is a distinguished person and the woman is not distinguished in the same sense that man is. He is the most distinguished person in the order of God in the universe, and
we see here that one of his ribs is taken and built into a woman. It is a remarkable thing. And then it says, Jehovah, "brought her to Man". Again the word Man is with a capital, "And Man said, This time", referring to the fact that he had also named the lower creation, but "This time it is bone of my bones" not simply bone, but "bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; this shall be called Woman". There again, as I should have said before, the Woman is also with a capital. "And Man said, This time it is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; this shall be called Woman", meaning that the Man has perfect intelligence in what he is doing in naming Eve as his wife. Therefore, it says, "Because this was taken out of a man". The man is intelligent in what he is doing, which ought to reflect upon ourselves as having to do with these great divine things. "Because", the reason is given, "Because this was taken out of a man". And it says, "Therefore shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife, and they shall become", notice it is a question of becoming something, "They shall become one flesh", not two, but one flesh. "And they were both naked, Man and his wife, and were not ashamed". I thought I would read this passage and link it on with chapter 11 of 1 Corinthians so that we might see the full thought of the assembly as seen in the saints, the body of Christ. "This is my body", He says, "Which is for you". That is to say the body of Christ is for
us and we have to understand what that word "for" implies. That the body of Christ is for us. It is for many other things, but it is for us too, peculiarly for us. I hope I am not saying too much at once. If the brethren think so, I will be glad for them to say so because we ought to be concise and say just what is to be said and understand what is meant.
P.A. Would you tell us about this matter of Jehovah Elohim bringing the woman to the man, bringing her to him and presenting her?
J.T. Because the word "Man" covered both of them. The word "Man" covered both Adam and Eve, but then that would imply what you have just asked, that Jehovah brings the woman to the man, and then the man says, "This time", Adam said, "This time", Adam showing that he knows what he is saying, too, that is the idea, which ought to be reflected in our brethren, all of us.
A.C.S.P. Is the pleasure of God involved in the woman for the man? I was wondering whether we think enough about the pleasure that God has in Christ and the assembly, whether it linked at all with the expression in the 11th of 1 Corinthians, "All things of God". You have the thought of "neither is woman without man, nor man without woman", and it finishes up "but all things of God". Whether when we have these great thoughts in our minds, we turn instinctively to God as the Author and Originator of them all?
J.T. Quite so. One has often felt in thinking of this that Man is a recent creation. One of the most recent creations in the creation, and that God must have pleasure in him in that sense. It is not simply that he is formed; he is formed, but the great moral parts that he has, the affections involved in these, how God was pleased with them, and they are reflected in Christ, that He loved the assembly. That word "love" is remarkable because it is applied to the assembly. It is the kind of love that Christ has for the assembly. There are many other things that we can see or speak of as to Christ's body, but this matter is a question of Christ's love for the assembly. I think that is wonderful, and we are part of it, we who are here today, our very selves are part of it, of this wonderful formation called the assembly.
A.C.S.P. It would appear that God would listen to Adam as he said, "This time it is bone of my bones". God would have His own pleasure in Man's appreciation of the woman, would He?
J.T. And hence what feelings Jehovah must have had when He lost man and when He lost the woman. Then through her loss having lost man as well, for they both fell together. It is a very solemn matter, and we all ought to take it to heart, for we deal with men and nations and wars, etcetera. We must also have in mind that it is a question of what God's mind was before the world was, to have His creature, and to have His beloved Son united to the saints viewed as a
A.C.S.P. So that every time we break bread, do we really enjoy the thought that God has recovered in Christ all that He ever had in His mind?
J.T. Very good, all that He ever had, we might say. We talk about the world to come, we talk about the millennium, etcetera, but then we have to go back in our minds in affection and think of what God has, and what He lost in man, but now it has all been recovered in the Lord Jesus. The Lord had to die to bring about recovery, and we ought all to feel the fact that the Lord had to die for us in this sense, not simply for each one of us but collectively, that He had this wonderful thing called the assembly.
J.W.D. "This is my body, which is for you". In the Lord's supper, do we link that exclusively with His death, and how it came about?
J.T. No, not exclusively, because He died for other things, that He might bring together what God had in mind before the world was. He has accomplished everything. The Father has put everything in the hands of the Son.
J.W.D. What I meant was, does the assembly get its existence in His death?
J.T. Very good. That is just what I would say, but then there is a great deal more to be said as to the formation, the work of the Spirit. Not only the death of Christ, but the actual work of the Spirit, and that is really effectively the same
thing; that we not only need the death of Christ, but we also need the Spirit down here to bring about the formation. "For also in the power of one Spirit we have all been baptized into one body". 1 Corinthians 12:13. This is a spiritual thought and it has to be understood that it is the real formation involving affection.
A.E.M. Would that be the expansion of the word "builded?"
J.T. Very good, because it is used first here.
We want to notice that. I hope everyone here today will notice it and gain by it because that is our point in this reading, that we might all understand the assembly viewed as the body of Christ, and that that body is for us. It is "for you", it says.
Ques. Would you encourage all young to break bread as soon as possible as their great opportunity in testimony in love to Christ to show what fidelity means where He is despised?
J.T. We are here in this city at this time with a purpose, we have a purpose in coming. It is not a holiday matter. If we are really Christians in the true sense of the word, we have a purpose and we are doing something that the Holy Spirit has a part in. And that is the assembly. It is the greatest being or formation in the whole universe, outside of divine Persons. It is very near to divine Persons, the thought of the, assembly. I am not sure I am making myself clear, but then we have all come to carry out what is in the divine mind, and was in the divine
mind eternally, that is before the world. And now we are here, and we are here to carry it out by the power the Spirit of God gives us, in our conversation one with another. We belong to this wonderful structure that we are speaking of, namely the assembly. There is nothing else like it in the whole universe, nothing else at all like it in the whole universe.
J.A.P. Do we understand from the ministry on Wednesday night in New York that the assembly is for Christ? It is of Him and for Him; it is not for the Father or for the Spirit in that sense.
J.A.P. I gather from the second chapter of Genesis that the assembly is of Christ as a Man.
The Lord Jesus came into manhood and the assembly came into being through Him, and it is for Him, femininely for the Lord Jesus. And that it is not in a feminine relationship to the Father. Is that right?
J.T. Well, that is what I would say, that is what I understand fully. That the Father could have done other things for Himself as in the Deity. The eternal existence of divine Persons means things could be all done from the divine side, because God can do everything. As job said, "I know that thou canst do everything", Job 42:2. Well, then, He did not do it thus. How has He done what we are talking about now? For that, Christ had to die, Christ had to die, andMARK'S GOSPEL (2)
MARK'S GOSPEL (3)
MARK'S GOSPEL (4)
FAITH'S OUTLET FROM PRESSURE
1 CORINTHIANS (5)