Pages 1 to 126 "The Remnant in Relation to Prophetic Testimony", 1910 (Volume 10).

READING

Isaiah 6:1 - 13

J.T. In every dispensation there has been Prophetic ministry. You get it in the first world in connection with Enoch. He was a prophet, and Abraham was a prophet.

R.S.S. Jude indicates that as to Enoch.

J.T. It comes out more clearly in each dispensation when things have declined; when departure from that which God had established in each dispensation took place the prophetic ministry was more in evidence.

R.S.S. I suppose it would come in for the purpose of recovery after departure had taken place. When you speak of dispensation, do you include christianity?

J.T. Certainly. It was in that connection I had the liberty to suggest the thought as bearing on ourselves.

J.P. I suppose you would say the conditions obtain now that call for the application of prophetic ministry. You were remarking that prophetic ministry comes in in the Scriptures when there is a breakdown of that which God may have established.

J.T. I think it is more apparent then. So in our dispensation the book of Revelation takes that character. It is consequent on the decline which set in in the assembly.

W.J.N. Has it only for its object the idea of recovery?

J.T. In the main, I think; but not only recovery; it has the character of an address to the whole responsible body of any given era. It places the whole body under responsibility, although they may not understand; it may not be intelligible to them,

and this may be judicial; but while it places the whole body under responsibility, it encourages the remnant. It establishes the remnant by bringing in God's mind in regard to a future dispensation. Each remnant is allowed to look forward to another dispensation in which their hopes and desires should be established; so that prophecy includes, therefore, the announcement of future things.

J.P. The Lord's ministry in Matthew 13 has a judicial character, because the very scripture we have read is quoted there.

J.T. And also John 12.

R.S.S. What do you allude to in John 12?

J.T. Isaiah 53 is quoted first in verse 38: "who hath believed our report?" and then the Lord says, "Esaias said again, He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart" (verse 40). But you get in the prophetic ministry encouragement for the remnant as to what is future. For instance, Enoch said he saw the Lord coming with ten thousands of His saints. He was evidently alone, but it would be an immense thought that there should be myriads of God's saints, and the Lord should come with them.

R.S.S. Why do you say he was alone?

J.T. The Spirit does not mention any other. It says, "Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him", Genesis 5:24. He had the testimony that he pleased God.

J.P. Each mention of Enoch seems to present him as alone. There is no expression of any others being in association with him, whether he is walking with God or whether in connection with what the Spirit takes up through Jude.

R.S.S. Does the ministry that is given to the remnant in that way, or in connection with what is future, necessarily affect the remnant themselves, or is it for others or both? I mean that God gives a ministry to the remnant when failure comes in, and

this has usually what God has before Him in regard to a future dispensation; is that in connection with the remnant themselves, or is it in connection with others?

J.T. I think, as I said, it places the whole public body under responsibility, for God had sent the prophets to the nation. You will find that each prophet as a rule records the date of his prophecy, and it is a very remarkable thing that the last prophet addresses Israel -- the whole nation.

R.S.S. As in contrast with Judah or Ephraim.

J.T. You get Elijah and Elisha ministering in the midst of the ten tribes; whereas Isaiah, Jeremiah and Hosea, and others whose histories are not recorded, ministered in Jerusalem. But it is a very remarkable thing that the burden of the very last prophet, who evidently ministered to the recovered remnant from Babylon, is to Israel. I mean Malachi. Isaiah prophesied in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz and Hezekiah, and his word had reference to Judah and Jerusalem. Evidently he had in view a remnant in relation to God's city.

R.S.S. That is very interesting.

C.A. I suppose you would say the prophetic ministry becomes effective in the remnant while it does not in the people at large.

J.T. It places the body at large under responsibility, God having made a fresh overture to them; but it establishes the remnant in the knowledge of God's interests, and the announcement of a future order of things in which all their hopes should find their realisation.

R.S.S. 'In which their hopes should find realisation' -- that answers my question.

J.T. So you find at the end of this section in Isaiah that their hopes are all realised. They engage in a song of triumph to Jehovah in connection with the realisation of all their hopes. Chapter 12.

J.B. In every prophetic ministry, would there not be a distinct word of the Lord for the nation?

J.T. That is exactly the point, so that the Spirit gives us the date of the ministries of the prophets. Therefore, in order to understand the conditions over which the different kings reigned, you have to examine the prophets that ministered in each reign. For instance, we might take Josiah's reign as a remarkable one, which it was, and yet the prophet Zephaniah ministered in Josiah's reign, and if you read Zephaniah there is no encouragement as regards the body at large; God was coming in in judgment to remove them. So that you get the internal state of the body at large in the prophet, whereas the record of the king's reign may be very bright and encouraging. In the latter the Spirit is simply putting forward the personality of the king and his faithfulness, whereas the prophet deals with the people.

R.S.S. That is very helpful indeed. So that in reading the Scriptures it would be well to read both the historical part of the books of Kings and Chronicles and the prophets together.

J.T. It is essential to do that if you wish to understand the conditions that prevailed in each reign. You may take any era of the history of the church; God might give a powerful ministry through some servant, and the Spirit might present that ministry to you and encourage you with it, but that servant being removed, the condition of the body at large comes into evidence, and things are not so bright as you might have thought they were. God is acquainted with the state of the people, and you must examine the character of the ministry to determine the state of the people.

J.B. That state is always laid bare by the prophet.

A.R.S. Did the state of the people not depend also on the kind of a king they had?

J.T. No doubt the kings had a good deal to do

with the forming of the people, but at the same time the low underlying condition of the people in the days of Hezekiah and Josiah is marked in spite of the faithfulness of the king. In this prophecy of Isaiah you see the terrible condition that existed in the people.

W.J.N. And that in the reign of godly kings. Speaking of Josiah, the manner of his death was long a mystery to me. It is helpful to see that the state of the people was beneath it.

L.T.F. A godly king affected the people outwardly. Their inward state came out in another way.

J.T. The state of the people came out in the wilderness; they were idolatrous. God said, "I will carry you away beyond Babylon", Acts 7:43. That was before ever they went into Canaan. God acted in love towards them, but the state of the people was marked by unbelief from start to finish.

A.A.T. While the state of the people in general was one of unbelief, did you not say the word in the prophets is more directly to the remnant as a word of encouragement?

J.T. It was that, but it was a word to the people at large as well, as we have been saying.

W.J.N. And so the thought of judgment is found largely in the prophecies.

J.T. No doubt, in every prophet.

W.J.N. And there is the same thought in the New Testament prophecies.

J.T. There must be of necessity, because they are introduced on account of declension; where departure sets in God must intimate judgment.

L.T.F. What was the element of encouragement to the remnant?

J.T. You get it in the next chapters. For instance, Isaiah had a son called Shear-jashub, and he was to go to the king with that child, the meaning of the name of the child being

a remnant shall return. There you see how God meets the people. This chapter is preliminary to what follows, because the prophet himself needed light. What enlightens us in regard to the prevailing conditions is the sight of the King, the King seen in His true light; thus everything is seen in its true light; "mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts". Isaiah discovers his own state and the state of the people.

A.R.S. You mean that he got into the presence of God, and there you understand everything.

J.L.J. You would say we need to see the King in the same light today.

J.T. As Isaiah saw Him. The throne had been disgraced by the line of kings. Uzziah was a peculiar character. He became a leper. He had attempted to enter into the temple to minister as a priest, and he became a leper, and we are told he dwelt in a separate house till the day of his death. It was in the year that he died that Isaiah saw the King. Jotham was his son. Jotham was not the ruling king now. The ruling king was Jehovah, and he says, "I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne". The throne had been vacated; Uzziah had died, and what the prophet sees is God upon His throne; that is the sight you want to see if the responsible element fails; "his train filled the temple". He was on the throne, and He was supreme in the temple also, so things were secure.

R.S.S. What would you say King Uzziah set forth? Was it presumption?

J.T. It was presumption for one not a priest to take up priestly service.

R.S.S. So it set aside in that way the holiness of God. None, even the king, could approach Him save a priest.

J.T. It was a denial of the character of the house. Both the throne and the house had been affected, and

what is encouraging here is that Jehovah is on His throne, and that His train fills the temple; so that He has secured the throne and the temple.

R.S.S. Uzziah really defiled both.

J.P. And it is what marks the moment that gives it such wonderful force; it is in the year that King Uzziah died.

J.T. That is what I was thinking of. Isaiah is to be the vessel for the conveyance of God's mind to the people, and he is furnished at the start with this wonderful vision.

J.B. Is there not always some revelation of God to a prophet at the start?

J.T. Always something that indicates the state of things in which his ministry is to be carried out.

J.B. It is the character of God.

J.T. It is like a man's gift. He gets some particular view of Christ. For instance, Elisha saw Christ, typically, going up, and he saw the chariots and the horsemen; that is, the grace of Christ ascending would fill his soul, and his ministry would be accompanied by the power of God to carry that grace into effect. So here, the throne and the temple were the two features that every right-minded Israelite would have before him, and Isaiah begins with this wonderful vision.

W.J.N. Why are the seraphim here?

J.T. Because it is a question of God's nature. It is a question of the ministry of grace, but in connection with God's holy nature.

J.P. Hence the three-fold ascription, "Holy, holy, holy".

J.T. They surround the throne. I think the vision taken as a whole represents God as in complete control of the throne and the temple. His holiness in that way is guarded; and then you get the activity of grace, with the becoming humility in the seraphim; "with twain he covered his face, and with twain he

covered his feet, and with twain he did fly". Everything that is suitable to the occasion is there.

J.B. What do the seraphim represent?

J.T. They are connected with God's nature, I think, and in this instance they guard His nature. "Holy, holy, holy". It is a question of guarding the divine nature; but then there is activity in connection with that, and it takes the form of relief; He relieves the prophet.

R.S.S. When you speak of guarding God's nature, would that include love as well as holiness?

J.T. It would now, seeing that God is fully revealed. He is love in His nature; He is love, but it is a holy love.

J.B. Is He not taking into account the earth here and also man in this connection, "the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory"? The question was asked as to the love as well as the holiness, and here God is regarding the Man in whom the love of God is expressed.

J.T. But I think the point is, everything is secured divinely in the presence of the state of the people. The throne and the temple and the nature of God, guarded morally by the seraphim -- all this in the presence of the state of the people. The people were unclean.

W.C.R. The prophet was brought into moral fitness for it by the coal from the altar.

J.T. That is a helpful thought.

W.B. I have wondered if the Lord's appearance to Moses in the bush was akin to this.

J.T. It indicated what would mark his ministry. The bush burned and was not consumed. It refers to the dealings of God with a people in the wilderness -- His discipline; that the bush should be unconsumed, and yet God should be in the midst in discipline.

W.B. I was thinking that everything should be according to the character of God; the place was

holy, and God wrought to bring His people to that. He never deviates from what He is.

J.T. The tabernacle sets forth that if men were to draw near to Him they must be in accord with what He is.

A.A.T. In what way can we have God's nature guarded as it is spoken of here?

J.T. It is a question now of the priestly state here upon earth, and that is a result of the Holy Spirit.

G.F.W. Is it not that God's nature is really guarded in the affections of the saints?

J.T. I think it is the priestly state. You require that now in order to have divine things guarded.

A.A.T. Is that an individual matter?

J.T. Priesthood is individual. You would not allow an attack on Christ if you love Him. That is the guard against evil doctrine.

G.F.W. You mean an attack in your own heart?

J.T. Or anywhere else.

G.F.W. But that is the main point, is it not?

J.T. You would have to guard against yourself, but the priesthood will not suffer any attack on Christ.

A.A.T. I was helped recently in seeing that, although Moses was the meekest man on the earth, yet when sin occurred in the camp, he was very firm.

J.T. The, seraphim represent the agency by which the divine nature is guarded here on earth.

T.A. Would you say, that holiness in the vessel and testimony, are connected in this chapter?

J.T. Yes.

T.A. How necessary it is to be holy before any true testimony can go out!

J.T. What was remarked is very important, that the prophet is put into moral correspondence with the vision through the coal from the altar. You feel that on our side death is necessary if we are to be put into moral relation with the holiness of God.

W.B. Nothing short of holiness will do for a people in relation with God.

J.T. Quite so; and also if you are to become a messenger to convey the divine thoughts to His people.

J.B. Mary says, "he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name", Luke 1:49.

W.B. There must be fitness first.

J.T. You feel in ministry, that it is of immense importance, because if ministry is taken up apart from the altar you are sure to get corrupt thoughts in connection with what is ministered. Do you not think so?

J.P. I am sure of it; so this chapter is properly introductory; hence you get first the one who is to be the vessel of this prophetic message; he is fitted; and then the remnant comes to light at the end, the tenth, Isaiah 6:13.

T.A. Is the tenth God's portion?

J.T. Clearly. I believe that each prophet sees something at the outset, and what he is to say to the people takes character from what he sees. For instance, Jeremiah saw an almond tree and a seething pot, the interpretation being that God would hasten His word to perform it; so that what you feel you get with Jeremiah is the faithfulness of God. He would carry out His word. And Ezekiel sees something that indicates the power of God; His name indeed signifies 'strength'.

J.P. And it is what each one sees that stamps its character on their ministry.

J.L.J. How is the live coal applied at the present time?

J.T. It refers to the ministry of grace; this is seen in the swiftness of the seraphim to effect relief. Isaiah says, "I am a man of unclean lips"; that is what we are by nature. You do not want to use anything you may have acquired by nature in your ministry.

J.L.J. It is applied to the mouth and lips.

T.A. Would it not apply to suitability to set forth the testimony?

J.T. You are in correspondence with the vision, so that now you are ready to be sent.

C.A. The prophet had to become qualified.

J.T. "These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him", John 12:41. That is the kind of testimony you want to render -- a testimony of Christ as seen in His glory.

W.H.F. Is this the character of discipline in connection with the prophet in order to fit him for his work?

J.T. The light of God in His holy nature shone in upon his soul, and he felt how utterly unclean he was. He had been pronouncing woes on others before, and rightly, but now he sees himself.

W.J.N. As the prophetic word became effective in the remnant, would it have the same effect on them as on the prophet?

J.T. I think so. In chapter 9 you get, "unto us a child is born", Isaiah 9:6. They come now to see the Child. They come into the light of Christ, but at this point it is a question of the prophet. He sees the Lord in His glory. If you see the Lord in His glory your ministry will produce a people that will speak of Him; there will be response to Christ. In chapter 9 they take account of the Lord as on their side. By the gospel you are brought into the light of what Christ is on our side, so that you claim Him as it were.

C.A. So that it is very essential what he sees of the glory.

J.T. Every minister ought to be very sure that he has seen the glory.

C.A. You see that exemplified in the apostle Paul.

He sees the glory above the brightness of the mid-day sun.

W.H.F. I suppose there are hardly two that get the same impression.

J.T. Nothing evidences that more than the prophets. Each prophet gets some view peculiar to himself.

J.B. Something distinctive.

W.H.F. So that each one is characterised by the impression he gets from the Lord.

J.T. The prophets are very encouraging in that way, and instructive, too, in regard to the ministry.

W.B. Does that come out in the way of gifts?

J.T. I think gifts are analogous. It is a question of what view a man gets of the Lord.

W.H.F. Do you not think the prophets through in their own spirits the condition of things before God?

J.T. I am sure they did. Isaiah judged the state of things in which he found himself, as well as himself.

A.R.S. Do you not think you get a very good example here of the way the servant is trained for his work? The Lord says, "who will go for us?" and now Isaiah is ready. He had seen the Lord and had his lips touched; he was in moral correspondence, and the Lord says, "who will go?" and he says, "Here am I". He is ready. He has been trained.

J.T. And then the message that he had to carry here was such a painful one; it was a message of judgment; but, although in his affections he might say "Lord, how long?" because he loved the people, yet he was in entire accord with God's holy nature in his testimony.

W.J.N. I suppose one could hardly be the bearer of a message of judgment unless he is himself in accord with it morally.

J.T. Although in your affections you regret that it is necessary to carry it.

W.J.N. You are in accord with the judgment yourself.

J.T. But you feel for the people.

W.J.N. I mean you are in the good of the live coal being applied to the lips.

J.T. You are in sympathy with God, but you feel for the people. If judgment has to be executed, every right-minded believer thinks of the people on whom it falls. Take Moses as an example. He would ask Jehovah that he might be blotted out of His book rather than that the people should be blotted out, and Paul had wish that he was accursed from Christ for Israel's sake.

W.J.N. So even Christ could weep for Jerusalem.

J.B. Is it not the afflictions of Christ and the sorrows of Christ in that way that came out in these prophets, like the Lamentations?

J.T. It was the Spirit of Christ, but they acquired that Spirit by beholding Him. "These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory", John 12:41.

G.F.W. Some of the prophets had to go through fearful things. One had to lie so many hundred days on one side.

J.T. That was Ezekiel, and you find Isaiah walked naked and barefoot for a long time. It shows how entirely given up to the divine will they were. They were there for the will of God and nothing else.

R.S.S. And I suppose as an indication of what the people themselves will suffer.

J.T. In each of those instances it was so. The testimony set before the people of what they should go through -- Isaiah referring to Egypt, and Ezekiel to Israel. Instead of God having to employ angels to carry out His will in the midst of the people, He is pleased to take men, such as Isaiah and Ezekiel, but they had to go through severe discipline so as to be brought so under the will of God as to be subject to it.

A.A.T. And it is so that God would discipline the

prophets, each one in a different way, to fit them for that service.

G.F.W. Did they not have to do with the state of the people in some way and in some connection with Christ?

J.T. The thought of God was, that the Spirit of Christ should be set forth in them. Each one sets forth some particular phase of Christ, but God had them so under His control that He could use them in setting forth His mind in connection with the people.

G.F.W. How could the prophet lying on his side have reference to the people?

J.T. It had reference to the judgment of God which was coming on them for their protracted years of iniquity. The message given to Isaiah here had reference to the state of the nation. It was a message of judgment: it says, "Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed". That was a terrible message to carry, but it showed that God was coming in in judgment on the people; it marked the state of things during the Lord's ministry.

R.S.S. But such judgment could come in only where there had been the refusal of the light beforehand.

J.T. It referred to the state of the people. There should be a ministry in their midst that was of God, and yet they could not understand it. That is to my mind a terrible judgment -- the people placed under responsibility by a message they could not understand.

J.B. Is not this the greatest of all judgments, that people should hear and not perceive? Their case was hopeless.

J.T. There is no hope for such people. So the prophet says, "How long?" and the answer is still more terrible; "Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate".

J.L.J. Would you say there is no hope of getting any better? In the state contemplated they would not accept the message.

J.T. In our own time there has been a message of God going out, and it places the whole body of Christendom under responsibility, and yet as a matter of fact they cannot understand it.

W.H.F. And not only that, but many have really turned aside from the light.

J.T. And we are going on to a moment when God shall send men strong delusion that they should believe a lie (see 2 Thessalonians 2:11).

J.B. How does this correspond with the end of John 9"For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind"?

J.T. It is very similar. You get the full result in chapter 12. The Lord had been all day long stretching out His hand, and then quotes Isaiah: "Lord, who hath believed our report?", John 12:38. John says, "they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, He hath blinded their eyes", John 12:39,40. He quotes from this chapter -- Isaiah 6. It shows, that God had come in in judgment so that they could not discern His testimony.

J.B. What is the coal from off the altar? Would that take into account the remnant and God dealing with them?

J.T. It has reference to Christ bearing the judgment of God sacrificially. The remnant is all secured through the testimony of the altar. Everything is to

be placed in correspondence with the vision, and this is through the death of Christ.

J.B. The altar refers to judgment, there is the fire there.

J.T. It is the consuming of what is contrary to God, and the message corresponds with that; till "the land be utterly desolate, and the Lord have removed men far away".

J.B. Cleansing comes from that.

E. Would the judgment be just previous to God's grace coming in in its fulness?

J.T. The judgment is consequent on light having been presented, and refused. God does not come in all at once, and execute judgment because the light is refused, but He introduces a testimony and closes people's ears and eyes, so that they should not hear and see it, that is, this judgment should be seen as righteous.

E. That would apply to this present age.

J.T. That is the solemn part of it.

R.S.S. It was the same with Pharoah. God hardened Pharaoh's heart, but not till he refused light from God.

J.B. Was not the real fulfilment of this when men were tested by the Lord Himself?

J.T. The Lord said: "Now is the judgment of this world", John 12:31. That shows the Lord was the test; the light was there, and it was rejected; but He immediately goes on to say: "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me", John 12:32. His death is introduced. It is not His ascension. It is His death.

J.B. It is the manner in which He should die.

A.R.S. What does it mean when it says, "will draw all men unto me"?

J.T. I think it means that He should be the gathering centre, as having died in this way.

A.R.S. Not that every one will be drawn to Him.

J.P. That all that are drawn are drawn to Him. There is no other centre.

S.T. Is it the separating of the remnant?

J.T. Yes. The world is judged, and the remnant find their new centre in Him. All are drawn to Him.

W.B. Does not Paul refer to this in the last recorded statement in the Acts, the last appeal?

J.T. That is the last appeal to the Jews as such in the Scriptures, Acts 28.

W.J.N. Does not John's gospel in a general way contemplate the present day, that is, prophetically? I was thinking of chapter 2. You get His death and resurrection referred to there, and I suppose you get in the following chapters what would be true in connection with the presence of the Spirit here.

J.T. John meets the breakdown in the church. John is the great prophet in christianity. But then his prophetic message runs concurrently with the message of life which the gospel is; so that the remnant is sustained in life, while the prophetic message runs on and places the whole body of Christendom under responsibility. Hence the prophetic word given to John was to be written in a book. It was not a message to each church alone. It was to be put into a book and sent to the churches. Each church was to get the book. So that the whole body of Christendom is placed under responsibility by the prophetic word of John.

R.S.S. I remember you remarked at one time, in connection with the prophets, something that helped me very much. We have been speaking of it while together, in a way. It is that you find the most scathing judgments pronounced, and then perhaps in the very next verse you find words of most beautiful encouragement, and you are surprised to see them side by side; they are almost in the same sentence. But you remarked that in order to read the prophets aright you have to take into account, on the one hand,

that God is addressing the responsible body; and, on the other hand, He is addressing the remnant.

J.T. That is a most helpful point. Now in the book of Revelation you get what answers to that fully. The Lord is seen by the prophet first of all, in the character of a Judge. That referred to the responsible body. He was in the midst of the assemblies -- the seven assemblies representing the whole responsible body in Christendom; the Lord is there in the midst as a Judge. John falls at His feet as one that is dead, and the Lord says to him, "Fear not", Revelation 1:17. His word to John is entirely different. His judicial garb had no reference to John. John represents the remnant. The Lord says; "I am the first and the last, and the living one: and I became dead, and behold, I am living to the ages of ages, and have the keys of death and of hades", Revelation 1:18. That is for the remnant. Then in chapter 4 John says, "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither", Revelation 4:1. In that way the remnant is encouraged, while the great body of Christendom is left on earth in Laodicea; the door is opened in heaven, and the voice says, "Come up hither". I believe in that way the hearts of God's saints are sustained while there is the announcement of the most terrible judgments on those who have failed.

J.B. Is not the point that God's land should be reserved for the remnant?

J.T. Yes; a remnant should come back, but even that remnant has to undergo the discipline of God; but the point is, "the holy seed shall be the substance thereof", Isaiah 6:13.

J.B. That is, the substance of the teil and the oak shall be there though the leaves are gone.

S.T. Discipline has always in view the saving of the remnant.

J.T. And the land belonged to them.

C.A. The door is opened in heaven.

J.T. That is for us.

R.S.S. What does the holy seed represent? Is it the work of God in the saints?

J.T. It refers to what is of Christ subjectively in the remnant -- what is of God. That was the substance.

W.B. "In it". What does that refer to?

J.T. The tenth. "And it shall return, and shall be eaten: as a teil tree, and as an oak, whose substance is in them, when they cast their leaves: so the holy seed shall be the substance thereof".

W.B. Then the tenth comes out of the nation?

J.T. That is God's portion, but even that should come under His discipline.

R.S.S. "Shall be eaten" -- that would indicate discipline.

J.T. I think so. The substance should remain, which is the holy seed.

W.B. Would Paul be like that? He was the representative of the remnant.

J.T. He spoke of himself in that light: "I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin", Romans 11:1. God had reserved to Himself a remnant according to the election of grace. The remnant is God's portion. That is important to see. I have reserved to myself seven thousand.

W.B. How do you understand what we get in Luke 17ten men cleansed from their leprosy, but only one of them that returned? Have we anything to do with the nine that were cleansed or the tenth?

J.T. You feel the responsibility of the nine was there, and that always holds good; while Christendom

exists on earth, the responsibility of the total remains. The ten were all responsible. They had received blessing from the Lord, and that placed them, morally, under obligations, whereas only one returned. That one was God's portion.

R.S.S. In connection with Isaiah's question to the Lord, it shows how well he knew God's character. He says: "Lord, how long?" He knew God in such a way that when he spoke of judgment he could ask a question like that. You get that in other servants of God: Abraham, for instance, when God was about to destroy Sodom, raised the question: "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?" Genesis 18:25, when he pleads for the city on account of the righteous who might be there.

J.T. It is beautiful that the prophet says, How long?

R.S.S. What do you see in it?

J.T. I think it is the affection that is proper to a servant, to all who are with God; affection for God's people. You care for them in spite of their weakness.

W.C.R. They like to see the judgment delayed.

J.T. It is not that exactly, but you feel for them.

L.T.F. It is the idea that there is an end to judgment and something beyond; a remnant saved.

J.T. It is not that the prophet would like to have the wicked man retained in the land, but the people abstractly were God's people; as we were saying; Moses felt it in that way.

W.B. You get the thought in David in the numbering of the people. His spirit seemed to go out for them in connection with the plague.

J.T. He called them sheep. A man that can, with God, look at the saints as sheep.

G.F.W. Is it not that he longed for that line of things to be over and the new to come in?

J.T. You can always tell where a man is when he begins to speak of God's people. You can form an

idea of where he is in his soul if you hear him speak of God's people. The terms he uses indicate where he is. Now David showed his character; he began with caring for the sheep. He had been caring for his father's sheep, and the truth was that God intended him to be a shepherd of Israel, and he retained this character. "These sheep, what have they done?", 2 Samuel 24:17. But really things were not right with them, and God was dealing with them. He moved David to number them.

J.P. That was beautiful on the part of David; "these sheep"!

J.T. You will always get the divine line marked out in contrast to the evil line; the divine line is marked out by the way in which individuals are occupied and how they speak. Abel was a keeper of sheep, not an owner; whereas Cain was a tiller of the ground. I believe you have in Abel the line of God marked out. He is not self-occupied, he has an object outside of himself; he is occupied with sheep. I believe it was Christ prefigured.

J.B. On the contrary, Nabal was a sheep owner, and those that protected the sheep he despised.

J.T. David and his men were a wall to them in the wilderness.

W.B. John 10 brings out very beautifully what was prefigured in Abel.

J.T. The Lord really was prefigured in that way in Abel, and you get it always. Take Abraham, he was a keeper of sheep; for he was a keeper of God's people. Although Lot virtually separated from him, yet Abraham loved him, and when he was in trouble Abraham was his friend and rescued him from the enemy. It shows, I think, the spirit of Christ. You will always find that when people are with God they

care for God's people. And then later you find Abraham interceding for Lot.

G.A.H. Would you say that Moses was not qualified to care for the people when he left the court of Pharoah? He needed forty years' discipline.

J.T. He was not qualified, but the shepherd was there; he would take care of them. He had the right motive. He had the affections. The Spirit of God charges wickedness on the people for rejecting Moses when he first sought to care for them, Acts 7:25,35.

J.N.H. You speak of one who while exercised for the good of God's people, even acted in self-will.

J.T. Yes; but it is beautiful that God alludes to that incident in the testimony of Stephen. He says, they would not have the deliverer when he was there. It was out of love for the people that he slew the Egyptian, and sought to establish peace between his brethren.

A.A.T. I was thinking that when we are exercised as to the saints in the way we speak of here, as were Moses and Paul, the exercise must be of God, and we must look to Him, and He will come in in response to the exercise.

J.T. It is a great thing to know how to care for the sheep properly. Moses had the right idea, and the Spirit of God does not say anything about the self-confidence that might have been in it. But then it is very important to know how to care for the sheep. I believe that David had divine instruction before he had the place. He kept his father's sheep in the wilderness, where there was no one to applaud him. He had to rescue the sheep from the lion and the bear in a secret kind of way, and then he is made the shepherd of God's people Israel; and it is beautiful that he retained his shepherd character to the last. "These sheep, what have they done?"

C.A. So Peter had to go through a great deal of discipline before being qualified to be a shepherd, but he became one.

J.N.H. I was wondering why you mentioned that it might be in self-will.

J.T. I would not say self-will, but you feel there was irregularity in connection with what Moses did; the time had not come.

M. When Moses started he did so in his own strength, and slew the Egyptian, but after he was disciplined forty years he went forth in the strength of God.

J.T. He could not even speak. You appreciate the man who retires, who refuses the place. He takes it because it is imperative, and there is no one else to do it.

R.S.S. You get the same thought in connection with Paul and the Thessalonians: "But we were gentle among you, even as a nurse", 1 Thessalonians 2:7. That would suggest the same thought. A nurse is not the owner of the children. Paul says: "we were willing to have imparted unto you, not the gospel of God only, but also our own souls, because ye were dear unto us", 1 Thessalonians 2:8. It was affection. It should be that in every case.

W.B. We should get along better if we were like that.

J.T. Have an object outside of yourself. You are not thinking of yourself, but you are set for the good of others.

J.P. It may be late to ask this question, but what about that expression, "the whole earth is full of his glory"?

J.T. It is a wonderful expression.

J.P. When you come to the details of the chapter it does not look like that, does it? I mean the cities wasted without inhabitant, and houses without men, and the land utterly desolate. I suppose if we get the vision of God as the prophet did, as you said, we see

He is on the throne and His train fills the temple, and then you get this ascription on the part of the seraphim, and then you get the result, the whole earth is full of His glory. It is prophetic, the full and final result seen in the light of the throne, and God on the throne. When the prophet said "how long?" it would be how long till this result would be reached; and you notice in Isaiah 12 the result is reached -- the whole earth is full of His glory. The earth is mentioned; "in that day shall ye say, Praise the Lord", Isaiah 12:4. "Sing unto the Lord; for he hath done excellent things: this is known in all the earth", Isaiah 12:5. I suppose it is a great thing for us at the present time to see the full result.

READING

Isaiah 7

J.T. My thought was that we might see the connection between the prophetic ministry of the Old Testament and the remnant of God's people as seen there; of course, with the view that we might see its bearing on ourselves.

What we see in this chapter is another part of the ministry of Isaiah. In chapter 6 he is engaged with the announcement of judgment, here he is the messenger of glad tidings to the king. This chapter is really for the remnant, whereas the other has a more direct application to the mass of the people; they were to come under God's judgment; but in this chapter you see a direct appeal to faith: "If ye will not believe, surely ye shall not be established" (verse 9). I believe we have thus indicated the two parts of the ministry of the prophets: the one having to do with the mass of those alienated from God, and the other addressed to the remnant of God's people, to support and encourage them. Ahaz, I suppose, may be taken to represent what was of God. Although personally not with God, he was in the place of leadership of those whom God still owned.

R.S.S. And he was on the line of David.

J.T. Exactly; of the house of David; that is, he was in the place which properly belonged to Christ; and I think that as we go on in the book, we see that Hezekiah answers to Christ -- to Immanuel. He is the foreshadowing of Christ; he cares genuinely for the remnant and through him deliverance comes. He believed. He asked Isaiah to pray for the remnant that was left, and through his instrumentality God intervened and overthrew the Assyrian.

R.S.S. That was in connection with his spreading out the letter before the Lord.

J.T. I only make these remarks to try and make clear the situation of this chapter. You have, on the one hand, the second part of the prophet's ministry, and then a responsible person as the leader of the people, and God addressing Himself to faith. Everything would be on that principle.

R.S.S. The second part of the prophet's ministry would be that which is addressed to the remnant; the first part that which is addressed to Israel as a responsible body. I suppose at all times God gives leaders or guides.

J.T. I suppose so; it is God's way of keeping His people; from the moment that He had a people He had a leader. Do you not think that is what is needed at all times amongst us?

R.S.S. Quite so; and, on the other hand, that when leaders are there they should be recognised. We should know whom to follow.

J.T. Of course, Christ is the Leader of God's people, and all true guides under Christ would partake of His character.

R.S.S. And so that is what you would look for -- those who really follow Christ.

J.T. And you will find where such an one exists, the object of Satan will be to divert the people from him. It is very noticeable that Rab-shakeh, the emissary of Sennacherib, did his utmost to divert the people from Hezekiah. His effort outside the walls of Jerusalem was to divert them from Hezekiah.

R.S.S. Even speaking in their own language so that they should understand.

W.C.R. It was to weaken their confidence in the king.

J.T. Yes; if the enemy can divert the saints from those whom God would use to shepherd them, he gains a great advantage.

W.B. The word of God is with a leader.

J.T. And I think it is important, as we were

saying this morning, that a true leader of God's people partakes of the character of a shepherd -- we see this from Abel onwards.

W.C.R. We read in Hebrews 13:17; "Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls". Is that the idea?

J.T. Yes; then you get in that same passage: "the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep" (Hebrews 13:20); and in Peter: "Ye ... are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls", 1 Peter 2:25.

G.F.W. That is the idea of a bishop.

J.T. Yes. A good meeting has generally a good leader or guide.

G.F.W. I quite admit the importance of a leader, but I am not so sure about what you say. What I mean is, that some meetings are very small, and without much leadership, yet saints go on happily together.

J.T. Of course, there may be faith in each to lay hold of the unseen One. "The locusts have no king, yet go they forth all of them by bands", Proverbs 30:27. But speaking generally, God's way of helping saints is by a leader. If there is blessing and souls are being helped in a locality through the gospel, you will find the need of leaders.

G.F.W. I quite admit that.

J.B. A leader would not be officious; he would help more by influence.

J.T. Every true leader partakes of the character of Christ; he is a shepherd. Like Abel, he is a feeder of sheep.

W.H.F. Such would be more on the line of a pastor.

J.T. He has regard for the saints.

F.L. I think so. The king comes to us along that line. And then you are speaking of the remnant. I suppose we see the character of the remnant indicated in Luke 2; there were faithful men, shepherds, watching over their flocks by night, at the time of the darkness.

J.P. So the apostle exhorted the Ephesian elders to feed the church of God.

R.S.S. Referring to the word quoted from Hebrews 13:17: "Obey them that have the rule over you"; it is not exactly rule; it is rather the thought of a guide. The margin reads guide.

W.H.F. There are two passages.

W.C.R. "Remember your leaders who have spoken to you the word of God" (Hebrews 13:7) and "Obey your leaders, and be submissive; for they watch over your souls as those that shall give account", Hebrews 13:17.

R.S.S. Is there such a thing as rule in the assembly?

J.T. I think there is. I think the cherubim in the house represent the rule that is there. The cherubim on the walls of the temple represented the rule of God in the house.

J.B. "Neither as being lords over God's heritage", 1 Peter 5:3. That would guard against clericalism.

J.T. "But being ensamples to the flock". It is by moral influence that the saints are ruled. That is the way Christ rules.

M. You would say that any one that was instrumental in bringing you under the subduing influence of Christ is a good leader.

J.T. I think so. It is said of David, of course, as figure of Christ, "So he fed them according to the integrity of his heart; and guided them by the skilfulness of his hands", Psalm 78:72. That is the kind of leader you get in Scripture.

F.L. The Lord had compassion when He saw the multitudes, because they fainted and were scattered

abroad, as sheep having no shepherd; and it was as the shepherd He was cut off: "smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered", Zechariah 13:7.

J.T. The connection between the earlier discipline of David, that we have alluded to, is most instructive; he was taken from the sheep. He comes out "From following the ewes great with young ... to feed Jacob his people, and Israel his inheritance", Psalm 78:71. He was taken out of God's school to do that. I only alluded to the thought of leadership in Ahaz here because he occupies the divinely appointed place, although not equal to it.

F.L. He does not in any other way represent Christ, because he signally fails.

J.T. I think Hezekiah did.

F.L. In keeping the Passover he does not restrict himself to Judah and Benjamin, but sends to the whole twelve tribes. This would encourage the remnant that might be amongst the twelve tribes. He was a shepherd in the true sense.

J.T. Well now, what we get in the child of Isaiah (Shear-jashub) has a very distinct voice to us. That is, there was a witness alongside of the prophet as to what God would do for the people.

G.F.W. How is that?

J.T. The child represented the return of the remnant, and that would be the effect of God's work in them. That is the meaning of his name. There are three symbolic children in this section -- that is, in this chapter and the next. The first is Shear-jashub, and the second is Immanuel, and the third is Maher-shalal-hash-baz, and each signifies some special intervention of God.

F.L. I suppose the thought of a child is a new generation. Do you think there is the thought of

resurrection in view in connection with the remnant? I was thinking of the end of the previous chapter, the seed; the character of the remnant was expressed in that of a seed.

J.T. I think that it comes out in Hezekiah. In him you get death and resurrection set forth.

F.L. I thought that the light of resurrection is with the remnant.

J.T. The testimony was that they should take root downwards and bear fruit upwards. In the word sent to Sennacherib by Isaiah (2 Kings 19:29 - 31) I think you get clearly indicated death and resurrection; that would be the end of the matter.

R.S.S. You mean taking root downwards and springing upwards.

J.T. Yes. All that took place in Christ, and it took place figuratively in Hezekiah. He had been down to death, he was actually appointed to death; it was not simply that he was sick and recovered, but his life was given back to him by God. It was not natural recovery, but life given back by God; so that the hopes of the remnant are made good in Hezekiah figuratively. He asked life of Jehovah and it was given him, but only fifteen years; but in the antitype you get: "He asked life of thee, and thou gavest it him, even length of days for ever and ever", Psalm 21:4. But that is the end. You do not get that in chapter 7. What you get in chapter 7 is Immanuel.

F.L. It is significant that every head comes in here -- Ahaz as the head of the house of David, the head of Syria, the head of Ephraim, and then Immanuel.

J.T. I think that the thought of a remnant is not much understood amongst God's people, and one would only venture to take up a passage like this as

having reference to ourselves, written for our instruction, and I think that what is going on today is that God is securing His portion from amongst the mass of those who profess to be His people.

R.S.S. You say the thought of a remnant is not much understood.

J.T. No, it represents what God secures for Himself; that is, His portion is secured in spite of our failure.

R.S.S. But would you not say there is a remnant at the present day?

J.T. That is what I think God is doing -- securing a remnant.

R.S.S. And that remnant would include every true believer.

J.T. In principle it would. "I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal", Romans 11:4. That indicates what a remnant is to God. They are those who refuse to recognise the god of this world.

W.H.F. You would say a remnant stands representatively for what the church is before God.

J.T. I think it is God's portion.

W.H.F. Would you apply it at this present time to the church -- the general thing, which of course includes all believers?

J.T. That is what was said, as I understand. Still you would not for a moment exclude from your mind the thought of a right state in the people -- "who have not bowed the knee to Baal". The thought of a remnant is expressed in the leper who returned to God (Luke 17), and that involves that God has a place in the soul; while you would not exclude a single believer from your mind, yet you must be careful to allow for a state in God's people which answers to God.

W.H.F. So that you have not in your mind a distinct class in that way.

J.T. You would include all believers but at the same time you would be careful to recognise what is due to God, and that involves state in the saints. What I mean is this: the Lord speaks of Philadelphia and He says: "Thou hast a little power, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name", Revelation 3:8. These were three things that marked a company. And then He says: "I also will keep thee out of the hour of trial", Revelation 3:10. The Lord would not exclude a single believer on earth from His mind when He said that, and yet with all that there was something there that was noticeable. They had power and did not deny His name; so that you feel, whilst you include all, there is something for the conscience of God's people -- as to whether we are marked by the things mentioned.

W.J.N. Does the acceptance of this place you in separate company?

J.T. I think it does. It is what separates us. You feel that you cannot go on with anything that is inconsistent with God. That is what marks the remnant.

G.F.W. The ordinary idea of a remnant, I think, has been that it was a small class of God's people, and I take it you do not think that.

J.T. No; I think it includes all, in the principle of it. God's people belong to God; but what I think we should be careful about is, to preserve the state that answers to God; it is in that way the saints are brought under exercise.

F.L. It is well to bear in mind what you have just said in regard to Elijah; there were seven thousand, and God knew them, but Elijah did not; they were not morally in the good of what they were in the sight of God or Elijah would have known them. They would have been with him. The remnant, as I understand it, really includes all that belongs to God. "The Lord's portion is his people", Deuteronomy 32:9. In Philadelphia

you get what answers to the normal state of the whole church. The remnant there was morally equal to what it is in the sight of God. I do not see that we get this anywhere else but in Philadelphia.

J.T. And it is a great thing to take God into account. The Lord knoweth them that are His. As you were saying, God told Elijah in Horeb about His people, and he evidently did not know about them. God sends him back to anoint certain ones: Hazael king over Syria, and Jehu king over Samaria, and Elisha to be prophet in his stead. Elijah returns, and in the next chapter you get war with Syria. Syria attacks Samaria, and he makes such demands upon Ahab that Ahab cannot evade resisting him, and a prophet comes to Ahab and encourages him to resist the Syrians, 1 Kings 20. Ahab then asks who is going to lead, and the prophet says: Thou; the wickedest king that reigned in Israel, yet God sends the prophet to him and says, You are to be the leader. Ahab asks as to those who should fight, and he says: "The young men of the princes of the provinces", 1 Kings 20:14. God gave a complete victory over the Syrians. Now I think it is in this way you learn in the Old Testament what God is, and you are preserved from narrow thoughts about God's people. You can never tell whom God may use.

W.B. Is that illustrated in Joseph of Arimathaea and Nicodemus?

J.T. It is remarkable that they were comparatively hidden and did not share His afflictions, but at the last they come forward and shine on the side of Christ.

F.L. Do not you think that one mark of the remnant, that is, those who are in the good of the remnant spirit, is that they appreciate all that the original stands for in the mind of God -- nothing smaller? For instance, as with Hezekiah when it was a question of keeping the passover; the whole twelve tribes must be brought into view. Do you not

think the remnant, understanding the mind of God, always appreciates the divine original?

J.T. I think it is very clear.

F.L. So with regard to the assembly, one would conceive that Philadelphia understood, as none other, what the church is in the sight of God.

J.T. So Philadelphia really refers to a state rather than a class of people.

M. The idea of a remnant, then, is that part which is exactly like the original.

J.T. Yes. As was said, they answer to what the original was and what it stood for. The fact is, that if there is love for Christ you will maintain everything that belongs to Christ, and that is how true testimony shines. It is the result of affection for Christ. So the Lord says: "Thou hast a little power, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name", Revelation 3:8. That is because they love Him. He said in John 14:23: "If a man love me, he will keep my words".

L.T.F. What stands in contrast to the remnant?

J.T. The whole outward mass -- the many.

G.F.W. I have to confess I cannot quite see the application of the word remnant if it includes the whole thing.

F.L. If you look at the church historically in connection with Thyatira the whole mass has become corrupt, so that for the first time the Lord has to take account of what is distinctive in character from the whole mass, and so He addresses them: "Unto you I say, and unto the rest", Revelation 2:24. And in Philadelphia that which is addressed comes out in a very clear and pure light in contrast to Thyatira and Sardis.

J.T. You cannot but see that the Lord thinks of the whole church. "I also will keep thee out of the

hour of trial", Revelation 3:10. Thee must include the whole church.

G.F.W. What was the original that this is a part of?

F.L. I speak of the original as being that which was set up in divine power at Pentecost, that which shone forth in Ephesus in its undimmed day; I take the remnant historically in Israel as being in the light of the kingdom and the purpose of God in connection with the king.

G.F.W. Speaking of the remnant, then, you have respect to the day of Pentecost?

F.L. Where there are those answering to the remnant, they will value and appreciate the divine original.

J.T. The remnant becomes, in a way, the generic head of the succeeding dispensation. I think that the remnant stands out in contrast to the mass after general defection occurs either with Israel or the church, and they give character to the succeeding dispensation. If you take Noah as an example, I take it that Noah carried through from the first world all the elements of the second world. That is, he brought a remnant through; it was nothing more, but there was nothing left of God in the old world that was not carried through into the new. There were male and female of every kind of animal besides Noah and his wife and his sons and their wives. In principle he brought what was of God through, and thus there was everything there that was requisite for the establishment of another world. So that a remnant is no small conception. It is a very great conception. It contains in itself that which is necessary for the establishment of the succeeding dispensation.

F.L. That is very valuable, and it was really a little on that line I suggested some time ago the idea that the resurrection goes with it; and I think the

last verse of Isaiah 6 would enforce it; the holy seed being the substance of the remnant.

J.T. I do not know of anything more interesting. Take Noah. It was there death and resurrection. Everything that was of God in the first world went into death, but was carried through safely and established in another world on the principle of resurrection. So here, as you will see later in Hezekiah, the remnant figuratively go down into death and are taken out of it. They were to "take root downward, and bear fruit upward", 2 Kings 19:30.

A.R.S. If I understand you aright now, the remnant includes every true believer in the Lord Jesus Christ, but there are certain characteristics that should mark that remnant, and that is, that it keeps His word and does not deny His name. Is that right? Every believer is included, but certain features are presented in order that our consciences may be exercised.

J.T. I think that is just it.

A.R.S. So that if a christian is not keeping His word the address to Philadelphia should exercise him.

J.T. I think the prophetic word is intended to exercise us. In this chapter we have: "If ye will not believe, surely ye shall not be established".

A.R.S. You made a remark about prophecy written in a book and then given to the churches. Is it not remarkable that this prophecy, The Revelation, is scarcely read by Christendom at all?

J.T. Most of them think it is a sealed book! It shows where people are. The Lord says to John: "What thou seest, write in a book", Revelation 1:11. The whole book was sent to each assembly. The book contained the whole vision, and that was sent, we may say, to the whole of responsible Christendom. The

question is -- Are they reading it? and, secondly -- Are they affected by it?

J.P. One would expect the enemy to be particularly set against that which the Lord has specially given for the help of His people.

J.L.J. Would you say that we do not get the thought of a remnant apart from failure?

J.T. Yes; it becomes evident because of decline in the mass.

F.L. Another important point in connection with the remnant is, that, in a sense, it is necessary for the glory of God, because the testimony is always connected with it.

J.T. Yes. And then what comes out is so encouraging. Immanuel should appear and should be known in the midst of the people. Now to see the full working out of this you have to consider the historical part in the books of Kings and Chronicles. That is, the full power of the enemy would be seen in the Assyrian. This chapter begins with Ephraim and Syria allied against the house of David, but the full power of the enemy should be seen in the Assyrian, and he should come up to the neck. He should attack. It was all right so long as he carried out God's will, but when he interfered with God's rights in the land he is met with God's judgment. It was Immanuel's land. Then God takes up the conflict with the Assyrian, and the remnant in the next chapter say: "Immanuel" -- God is with us. Directly they discover that God is with them it is all over with the Assyrian. God sends a message to him: "The virgin, the daughter of Zion, hath despised thee", Isaiah 37:22. That is beautiful. They discover that God is with them. The Assyrian comes up to the neck. He overflows, but he does not for the moment know that it is Immanuel's land he is treading upon.

The enemy may be God's instrument in discipline, but when he interferes with the rights of Christ, it is all over with him, because Immanuel is there.

R.S.S. What is the difference between what is set forth in the Assyrian and the Syrian? Here the conflict is between Syria and Ephraim and Judah. The former wished to go up and dethrone the king of Judah and set their own king on his throne.

J.T. Syria and Ephraim represent a certain feature of the enemy's power which is of a religious character. It is directed against Christ and His rights to the throne. The Assyrian is not a religious power, but a political power, and it attacks the whole nation, so that the full bearing of the prophecy has reference to the future. The Assyrian is the northern power, and he attacks Israel -- the whole nation; whereas Ephraim was a part of the people. God was not with Ephraim; God had given him up, and he had become allied to the gentile; so that it is a wicked bond and it is opposed to Christ and His rights in the midst of the remnant. The remnant is in view. "The remnant shall return", Isaiah 10:21. You can see the same working today -- a religious combination against the rights of Christ in the midst of those who seek to walk in the truth.

F.L. It is very clear, and if we look to the origin of things we shall see that. Syria was of the same kindred as the Jews. When it became a question of getting a bride for Isaac, the servant must go to Syria; and Ephraim was Judah's brother; yet they are allied to fight against Jerusalem where the testimony of God was. It is very helpful to see it is that which was kindred, and therefore religious opposition.

J.T. Quite so. The point is to put another king there besides the one that belonged to the house of David.

F.L. Of course, the Assyrian is the great power

that God will take in hand for judgment in the last days.

J.T. The king of Assyria said: "I come and take you away to a land like your own", Isaiah 36:17, that is, he would captivate the people. Syria and Ephraim would put a corrupt king on the throne of David. That is the most dangerous thing. If you have an influence over the saints other than Christ, you will corrupt them.

R.S.S. The distinction between the Syrian and the Assyrian is confirmed very much by that expression, "A Syrian ready to perish was my father", Deuteronomy 26:5, which shows the relationship existing between Israel and Syria.

J.T. There are people around us that are related to us. There is a certain relation between us and the religious order of things that prevails, but they are allied together against the rights of Christ in Jerusalem. Here the house of David trembled because of the combination.

J.P. It was that that moved the heart of the house of David. "It was told the house of David, saying, Syria is confederate with Ephraim".

J.T. Who among us would not be moved with fear, apart from knowing God, in the presence of the conditions around us; but God comes in and sends His messenger with Shearjashub; this was, that God would work in the remnant; and then He says: "For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings". That is, God would deal with these two men.

J.P. The kings there referred to the two mentioned in the earlier part of the chapter. Mr Darby's translation makes that more plain than our Authorised Version. The most serious judgment was pronounced upon Ephraim; God announced the time: "Within threescore and five years shall

Ephraim be broken, that it be not a people"; and it has never been a people from that day to this.

R.S.S. I thought the reference to the child ("Before the child shall know to refuse the evil", verse 16) referred to Immanuel. Now I think it is Shearjashub. It is the child immediately at hand.

F.L. And in the next chapter, with regard to Maher-shalal-hash-baz, you get the same expression. It has reference to the prophet's child.

R.S.S. It is clearly so there.

J.T. I think it is so here; the child immediately at hand.

J.B. Verse 15 would be Immanuel, would it not? We see the same thing as to the remnant later on: "For butter and honey shall every one eat that is left in the land".

J.T. I should like to get more clearly before us the peculiar danger that threatens God's people now -- a confederacy between Ephraim and Syria. In a sense it is a more dangerous thing than the Assyrian.

R.S.S. The Assyrian was more an open enemy.

J.T. There could be no difficulty about him. He is an open enemy, but Ephraim is not that. Ephraim is the elder brother.

J.P. There is no confederacy about Assyria. The word confederate is brought in here. Syria is confederate with Ephraim; that is the thing.

J.T. Ephraim represented the elder brother. He had a right to the firstborn and he was envious of Judah; that is, envy marked him, and where you get envy it will devise something; it may be hostility to a brother or brothers, but it results in an attempt to place another influence than Christ's over the saints: to put, as we get here, another influence on the throne besides that of the house of David.

F.L. Ephraim established new gods at Bethel and Daniel So that what we are dwelling upon here is more on the line of apostasy -- false gods, and so it is

distinctly religious; whereas Assyria has the power that God gave politically.

J.T. And Assyria is the rod of God's chastisement. With Ephraim you get the envy of one who is displaced, because God displaced Ephraim in favour of Judah. At the end the envy of Ephraim shall depart; but it has not departed here.

G.F.W. Ephraim was set over Manasseh.

J.T. Ephraim had this place of firstborn and had the birthright; Ephraim was the leading tribe. But God forsook Shiloh and the house of Joseph, and took up David and Judah. I only alluded to that because it is the cause of all the trouble amongst us -- the envy of Ephraim.

J.B. Why are these two called firebrands? Is it not significant?

J.T. That is what Samson used. Your thought would be that they would set things on fire.

W.H.F. Ephraim represents the side of responsibility, and on that line failure comes in; and then David comes in on the line of sovereignty.

J.T. The responsible man always rejects sovereignty.

F.L. "What portion have we in David? ... to your tents, O Israel", 1 Kings 12:16. It is important to see that the two great things that dominate are both satanic; that is, that which is represented in Ephraim and Syria takes its impulse from the god of this world; and its initiation was in the golden calves at Dan and Bethel when the ten tribes apostatised. Then the prince of this world is represented in the Assyrian.

W.C.R. Is confederacy taken up when there is a lack of faith?

J.T. You will often find that when a brother is displaced, and God takes up others and uses them, the spirit of Ephraim comes in; God is not with that spirit, so there is always a tendency to confederate

with others for support. But then, the house of David had Immanuel. This is a wonderful section of the word, because it brings Christ in.

W.H.F. The opposition is to what God brings out sovereignly.

J.T. That was the point of Satan's attack from the time God took up Judah and David. It was God's sovereignty. God chose Judah. "What portion have we in David?"

W.H.F. We have seen that in our own times clearly.

F.L. Will you say a word as to the culminating point of all this? I was thinking of the Revelation, where we get the religious power and the political power and the power of Satan all allied in one vast confederacy; we get the term here in Isaiah, "a confederacy", but that is the true confederacy in the Revelation, where everything is so dominated that men cannot buy nor sell without the mark of the beast; it is the culminating point, as I understand it, in the last desperate attempt to overthrow the power of Immanuel. Does not this line lead up to that?

J.T. Certainly it does. We shall see that more clearly in chapter 8 in connection with Maher-shalal-hash-baz. What I think we may see in this chapter more specifically is God's address to faith, and His intervention in Immanuel.

F.L. The Lord has the name Immanuel in Matthew. This passage is quoted in chapter 1.

J.T. There we have the fulfilment of it.

F.L. It gives character to that gospel.

J.T. The practical bearing of Immanuel is the presence of God in the midst of His people. This was in Christ as Man.

W.J.N. And that in the present day is the resource in view of what we have been speaking of.

C.A. So when you see these evil elements come in we have the realisation that Christ is with us.

J.T. At the close of this chapter certain things are spoken of which indicate some peculiar privileges of the remnant. God has not yet intervened for the land; the Assyrian is there as the rod of His chastisement. It says: "And it shall come to pass, for the abundance of milk that they shall give he shall eat butter: for butter and honey shall every one eat that is left in the land" (verse 22). The land as a whole is abandoned; it is full of briers and thorns; and if a man is to invade it, he is to come with arrows and bows; that is, it is a place where enemies lurk. There are hiding-places for the enemy in the land. But then on the hills, where there is the mattock and where there is digging, "there shall not come thither the fear of briers and thorns⁺: but it shall be for the sending forth of oxen, and for the treading of lesser cattle" (verse 25). It seems to me you have there indicated a condition of things like our own. The general state of things furnishes lurking-places for enemies, so that you have to be armed; but then there are the tops of the hills where there is exercise. The digging with the mattock refers to exercise. Things would be very obscure.

F.L. There is much food in the tillage of the poor.

R.S.S. What do the hills indicate?

J.T. I think they refer to the moral elevation to which the remnant attain through exercise so that they are morally free from the attacks of the enemy and there is food there; oxen go forth; not literal

⁺There is a difference of judgment as to the rendering of verse 25, but leading scholars sustain the Authorised Version. It is supported also by a footnote in the Revised Version. The context, too, seems to justify the reading in the Authorised Version.

oxen, but those who serve God's people. "Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn", 1 Timothy 5:18. It seems to me to indicate a general condition of things prior to the attack of the Assyrian which chapter 8 indicates.

G.A.H. Will you say a word on verse 21?

J.T. It refers to the Lord's provision for the remnant in those days; so that there is abundance of milk.

J.B. You were about to speak of the butter and honey.

J.T. It seems that in conditions such as this chapter indicates, God forms His people after Christ through this kind of food. I feel at the present time that what saints need is proper food, because it is through this they get discernment. What would you say?

J.P. Part of the original description of the land was that it flowed with milk and honey. You could not have butter and cheese without milk. Butter and honey are not produced in the wilderness; they are the proper product of the land; and what makes it so striking is that the butter and honey are available in the midst of a scene of general desolation.

J.B. Available to the remnant -- to the saints now.

J.T. So you see a most remarkable analogy to the present time. You feel you are not safe in any place in Christendom today. Primarily there were no briers nor thorns there, but now you have to go about with a bow and arrow.

F.L. I would like to read a verse or two that apply to the people as a whole before the remnant was in view: "So the Lord alone did lead him, and there was no strange god with him. He made him ride on the high places of the earth, that he might eat the increase of the fields; and he made him to suck honey out of the rock, and oil out of the flinty rock; butter of kine, and milk of sheep, with fat of lambs, and rams

of the breed of Bashan, and goats, with the fat of kidneys of wheat; and thou didst drink the pure blood of the grape", Deuteronomy 32:12 - 14.

J.B. You get the lesser cattle too.

J.T. It is very encouraging that although there is not the abundance that there was at the beginning of the nation's history, there is all that is necessary for the support of the remnant.

J.L.J. In the book of Chronicles, where the ark was installed, there was plenty to offer and plenty to eat.

J.T. I believe exercise involves moral elevation.

M. Every one that is exercised is able to "nourish a young cow, and two sheep" (verse 21).

J.T. No doubt, in principle. And it is very encouraging to get into a sphere where there is no fear of briers or thorns.

J.N.H. No place for the enemy to lurk.

J.T. It is sorrowful if you come in amongst God's people and find the enemy lurking there.

F.L. Thorns and briers are the evidence of the curse.

R.S.S. "Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good" (verse 15); what would be the application of that to Immanuel?

J.T. There was no possibility of the Lord choosing the evil, but everything in Him was normal. He grew up before God as a Man; He increased in wisdom and stature and in favour with God and man. Everything in the Lord's history personally was normal.

J.B. The point is here that Christ is looked at on our side. "Unto us a child is born", Isaiah 9:6.

F.L. I think that verse 15 really speaks of what was normal; it is not that the Lord was exposed to temptation, but discernment as to good and evil always marked Him as born of a woman. Taking up

manhood, He knew how to refuse the evil and choose the good. We see it in the temptation. But verse 16 gives a different thought. It refers to Shear-jashub.

J.T. Exactly. The Lord took man's place, and there was the refusal of evil by Him; it is viewed here on account of what He fed upon. You get in this book also: "The Lord God hath given me the tongue of the learned, that I should know how to speak a word in season to him that is weary", Isaiah 50:4. That could not apply to the Lord viewed as a divine Person.

G.F.W. Would it be on the line of that scripture, that He learned obedience by the things He suffered? Hebrews 5:8.

F.L. It is very helpful to see that the Lord came along that line. When He met Satan it was by what He fed upon. "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God", Matthew 4:4. It is very helpful for us that He came that way.

R.S.S. And the connection between verse 22 and verse 15 is that the remnant partake of the same food as He did.

J.T. And they learn how to refuse the evil accordingly.

J.B. Take the Lord in Jerusalem at twelve years of age; He was hearing the doctors and asking them questions. That is something analogous to this.

J.T. He was normal in every stage of His humanity, whether in infancy, in childhood, or in manhood.

J.P. We lose a great deal if we do not take account of the Lord in this way.

F.L. He learned obedience by the things He suffered. He learned to obey (as another has said) because He had been accustomed to command.

Ques. Would you say it presents His perfect humanity?

J.T. Yes. He was perfect in infancy, Psalm 22:9,10. Luke presents the genuineness of His humanity.

T. If you were asked to give a description of the remnant, would you say it is where every divine principle is maintained?

J.T. Just so. Everything that belongs to Christ is cherished there. Anna and Simeon represent the remnant that come down to us from the Old Testament. Simeon, the intelligent side of the remnant, and Anna, the enduring character of the remnant; she continued steadfastly in the house, she departed not from the temple and spoke of the Lord to all those that looked for redemption in Jerusalem.

READING

Isaiah 8

J.T. The name of the second child of the prophet is somewhat of a clue to the point of view here. Whilst immediately the child refers to the Assyrian, yet it is the Assyrian viewed as used of God for the overthrow of the enemies of the remnant; the Assyrian executing God's judgment upon Syria and Samaria, these two nations forming the combination which the house of David feared so much. So that Maher-shalal-hash-baz represents to us, in a certain sense, the Lord, as intervening for us against our enemies. We have to distinguish between the Assyrian, as executing God's judgment upon Syria and Samaria, and the Assyrian coming up into Immanuel's land. When he goes up into Immanuel's land, that is, when he attacks Jerusalem, then he is the enemy of God's people directly. These chapters, 7, 8 and 9, I think, represent to us certain aspects in which Christ was to be known by the remnant; therefore they become helpful to ourselves, because the means of deliverance for God's remnant in the last dispensation would correspond in the principle of it with the means of deliverance now. Here the remnant need deliverance. They are not seen here as delivered; their deliverance is in prospect, but you get the means by which they are delivered.

R.S.S. And Judah is looked at as the remnant.

J.T. I think so. At any rate, the remnant was there in Judah; and the quotations from these scriptures in the New Testament connect them directly with the birth of the Lord, and what resulted from that; that is, the gathering of the remnant together around His Person and their being separated from the nation at large; and then His committing to them the testimony of God.

R.S.S. That is, the Lord separated them.

J.T. Yes. God hid His face from the house of Jacob, and the Lord occupies Himself for the moment with His disciples; the children whom God had given Him, and that marked the introduction of christianity; so that you get an entirely new world in principle, formed out of those few disciples delivered and gathered around the person of the Messiah.

R.S.S. So it is fitting that this should be quoted in Hebrews 2.

J.T. Yes.

W.B. Peter quotes from this chapter, 1 Peter 2:8: "A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence".

J.T. The chapter gives, you might say, almost in detail, the Lord's position in the midst of the Jewish remnant in Israel, and how He delivered them, and how subsequently they became the nucleus of another order of things.

R.S.S. Corresponding with the beginning of John 10.

J.T. Yes. Whilst He was everything to them, He was "a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel".

C.A. In that way the remnant of the former dispensation was carried over into the present one.

J.T. And every divine thought was deposited there: "Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples. And I will wait upon the Lord, that hideth his face from the house of Jacob, and I will look for him".

C.A. So in that sense the vessel becomes the vessel of testimony.

J.T. Yes. The present situation, so far as the dealings of God on earth are concerned, is that both houses are abandoned, but the testimony of God is deposited amongst the disciples of Christ, and instead of having the whole nation of Israel He has children.

J.P. And the expectation of God coming in finally

for the deliverance of Israel is maintained amongst the disciples. "I will look for him". You get that in Hebrews 9:28: "unto them that look for him".

R.S.S. I do not know that I have caught your thought altogether.

J.P. I added to what was said, that not only is the binding up of the testimony and the sealing of the law amongst the disciples, but the expectation of what is stated here is maintained in the assembly -- "I will look for him". This is, while He hides His face from the house of Jacob and every connection between Israel and God is broken off, everything connected with Israel is maintained in the assembly, even the expectation of the Lord's coming, because I do not think it is the rapture in Hebrews, it is just what this chapter warrants. It is a most interesting chapter, especially in view of its connections and the extensive quotations from it in the New Testament.

J.L.J. How would you say the testimony is bound up?

J.T. The binding and scaling refer to the fact that the fulfilment of the promises was deferred. The testimony was carefully deposited among the disciples.

J.L.J. Would you say it was because they were attracted to Himself as rejected?

J.T. I think the disciples loved Him. The Lord will not commit anything to those who do not love Him.

F.L. Do you not think that we cannot very well understand the great importance of that little handful -- the Lord's company -- unless we appreciate the spirit of the remnant? What one sees in closing days, in the end of the years of the Lord's ministry, is that He is getting a small nucleus, preparing them and forming them, and then in the spirit of the last

chapters of John, He deposits the testimony there, so when He is gone, it is there; otherwise, I think, one can scarcely understand, in reading the gospels, why such a handful of men should be so important.

J.T. If the Lord is to communicate anything to persons, He tests them first of all. They have proved by previous tests that they are qualified to be the custodians of it. You see this in Noah; the Spirit of God enlarges on Noah's character. He was a righteous man; "thee have I seen righteous", Genesis 7:1. The whole world had been alienated from God by wicked works, but, there was one man on whom God could rest and that man was righteous, and God committed to that man all that He treasured on earth; every thought of God as to the earth was committed to Noah. He was the custodian of it all, and you find subsequently that he proved equal to the occasion. He carried everything through the flood; not one thing was lost; all was carried through in safety and established in another world. Then of Abraham He says: "Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do ... For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him", Genesis 18:17,19. He was proved faithful. God could commit His testimony to Abraham, because of what he was personally. I believe in these instances God indicates the kind of men to whom He commits things; so with the disciples, they had been proved by the Lord's dealings with them to be righteous, and to have affection for Himself.

R.S.S. It was especially so with Peter, as we see at the close of John's gospel.

J.T. After he had been fully proved -- "Lovest thou me?" John 21:15,16.

R.S.S. That confirms what you were saying, that the Lord does not commit anything except to those who love Him.

J.T. So I think you get in that way what the

assembly was. It was marked by affection for Christ. Acts 1 shows the Lord with the disciples on the mount of Olives, where He was received from them into heaven; and they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, evincing that the hope of their affections had gone into heaven. You can understand how the Lord could have the fullest confidence in committing everything out of heaven into their hands.

J.P. And that same principle obtains at the present time, does it not?

J.T. I believe it does: that those who receive light from the Lord are those that love Him.

J.B. Is not that what you get here in this chapter in regard to the remnant?

J.T. I think so. That is why I felt encouraged to propose it, because there is an analogy between the remnant and our own times.

W.B. How do you connect that with Revelation 3? You get a remnant there which refers to the present time.

J.T. You get a remnant in Thyatira, and there can be no doubt that the principles that are developed here have application to them. That is, it is an immense thing to the Lord on His throne, high and lifted up, and His train filling the temple, when you think of the place that Jezebel has and all the corruption in that which has the responsibility of being the temple here upon earth. Then, secondly, to find Immanuel; that is, the presence of God in the midst of the saints, in spite of all that corruption; and then the victory set forth in Maher-shalal-hash-baz. As we were seeing yesterday, the confederacy between Syria and Samaria was to put another influence on the throne instead of Christ; to put another king there, and Maher-shalal-hash-baz signifies God's intervention to prevent that, so that you get the confederacy overthrown. But now another

question is raised, as to whether those whom God has thus helped appreciate what is of Him; and what comes to light is that they despised the waters of Shiloah that go softly. This comes home to us closely.

T.A. What do the waters set forth?

J.T. It was God's provision at that moment. It refers to the pool of Siloam. It was a provision that God had made for the people at Jerusalem, and the question was as to whether they appreciated it. Things may be very small, but they test us as to whether we appreciate them as being of God.

F.L. It is connected with the house of David.

J.T. The prophet says, "Forasmuch as this people refuseth the waters of Shiloah that go softly, and rejoice in Rezin and Remaliah's son", Isaiah 8:6. That is, there was a treacherous state of things; they were despising what was of God, and in sympathy with the enemy without.

F.L. I will tell you the remedy; that is, to crown Him with the crown wherewith His mother crowned Him in the day of His espousals. This would be recognising Him in the throne of David. Is not that the point that the remnant comes to in the Song of Songs?

J.L.J. That is appreciation of Christ.

J.T. And now that the people are marked as despising the waters of Shiloah, the Assyrian comes up against Judah and Jerusalem; "Now therefore, behold, the Lord bringeth up upon them the waters of the river, strong and many, even the king of Assyria, and all his glory: and he shall come up over all his channels, and go over all his banks: and he shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over, he shall reach even to the neck; and the stretching out of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy land, O Immanuel", Isaiah 8:7,8. God is now permitting the Assyrian to come up against them because of their state.

J.P. If they refuse the waters of Shiloah, they get the waters of judgment, a perfect flood, to the neck.

J.T. That is very searching. He comes up to where David's throne was and where the temple was.

A.R.S. You said the waters of Shiloah were what God had provided for His people; so that when these are refused, the truth that God has given is being refused.

J.T. I think so. It may be very insignificant, but it is of God, and God's provision.

A.A.T. Is the acceptance of the water that which constitutes them a part of the remnant?

J.T. The true remnant would be marked by that. Take the Lord in the midst of Israel. He was God's provision for the remnant. He was a great deal more, we know, but He was for the remnant and the remnant were brought into evidence by Him. Everything in Israel was tested by the presence of Christ, but the true remnant came to light.

A.A.T. I understood yesterday afternoon that all believers formed part of the remnant, and yet there may not be the state of soul in each that corresponds to what we have before us now.

J.T. We sought to distinguish between the state that marks the remnant and those that God takes account of as forming it in His mind. You could not exclude any true believer from God's remnant. It is what God has reserved for Himself. Every believer is sealed by God, but there is something for the conscience in the way the remnant is presented. That is what is to exercise us, and I believe as we read on in the scripture before us we get the marks of the remnant; that is, when the Assyrian comes out in all his power and the people suffer from the "razor", then a certain class of people begin to speak; they say, "God is with us", Isaiah 8:10. It is not the prophet now; a certain voice is heard, and it says: "God is with us".

J.L.J. Those are the ones that accept the waters of Shiloah.

J.T. I think if you take it historically, it refers to those that become attached to Christ. They came to a just conclusion that God had visited His people.

W.J.N. As to the remnant of Isaiah's time, I should like a word as to what marked them.

J.T. I think they would appreciate the testimony of Isaiah, as an example.

W.J.N. Would it be right to say that what marks the remnant at any time is that they appreciate what God is giving for the moment?

J.T. That is the point. There is a provision of God for His people, and those who are of God appreciate it.

M. The remnant were drinking the waters of Shiloah, and the same characterises those who are feeding on Christ.

J.T. You appreciate what is of God at any time, however small it may appear.

F.L. There is another mark about them; they appreciate divine order. A great test came in in the division -- the separation of the ten tribes from the two, and you find the true spirit of the remnant in that which follows divine order. It is there that God has more liberty to express Himself, and those that stood by the throne and the house of David are those that really come to light as having the spirit of the remnant. It is very important in a day of disorder to keep clearly before us that God goes along with that which pays respect to divine order.

A.B. Would 1 Corinthians 14:37, be on that line? "If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord".

J.T. Very good. I believe that that which is of God is owned by those who are of God. John says, "he that knoweth God heareth us", 1 John 4:6.

J.B. Would you say the remnant really took character from David and what David brought in?

J.T. They are marked, it might be said, by appreciation of what God has revealed. They let nothing slip of what God has communicated; and I believe, therefore, that the opening of the gospel of Luke sets before us the remnant that God has reserved for Himself. What marks them is that they were engaged with the things that were of God on earth at that time. Simeon and Anna were both connected with the temple, and then they were prepared for fresh light; anything additional that God is pleased to give is welcome to them.

C.A. I suppose in that light, applying it to ourselves, is it not necessary to be walking with God so that when God speaks at any time we hear His voice?

J.T. Certainly. You are not afraid of light. If a brother has anything more than you have, it is so much added joy to you. It is not his alone, it is yours as well.

J.L.J. What do you mean when you say they are prepared for fresh light?

J.T. It marks the remnant. Simeon was in the temple; he had light.

J.L.J. I was thinking of 'fresh light'.

J.T. He got fresh light. He got wonderful light and he delighted in it; so did Anna.

W.J.N. In one sense he got that which he had been looking for.

J.P. It is, "he that hath, to him shall be given", Mark 4:25.

W.B. Is not the light connected with Judah: "Judah is my lawgiver", Psalm 60:7. They had the mind of God. They were nearest to God, and that is so now with those who take a place outside of things here for Christ; the true Shiloah; there the light and refreshment of God are found.

J.P. I think what you said as characterising the remnant is very important. We see it in our own day. The Lord gives fresh light, and the moment that comes in there is a line of demarcation. On one side you have appreciation, on the other side you have depreciation.

J.T. Yes. It is the envy of Ephraim. Fresh light always tests our state. The true believer always welcomes the light. It cannot detract from him. It cannot detract from any one of us.

A.A.T. Fresh light will stir up the Philistine.

J.T. But it belongs to all the saints.

W.B. How is it that some seem to get the light in these days and then to go back? They go so far and then fall off.

J.T. That is the constant danger, and you feel the weight of an epistle like that to the Hebrews, because the giving up of light is apostasy in the principle of it. Every departure from divine truth and light is apostasy in principle -- "falling away".

A.B.S. Do you not think the reason they go back is, they have ceased to hold this light in connection with God?

J.T. And things in the world become attractive.

W.B. Are there not some true believers who have light but who are so mixed up with things here, that they seem to be prevented from coming out distinctly?

W.C.R. It says in Hebrews 4:2: "For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it", Hebrews 4:2. Would that be our difficulty?

J.T. I think so. And "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God", Hebrews 3:12.

R.S.S. In regard to the division between the tribes, I refer to the Levites and the priests in the ten tribes, it was pretty difficult for them, because

many of them were true to God, and what were they to do? The remnant was evidently connected with Jerusalem. And so it is recorded that they left their suburbs and their possessions and resorted to Rehoboam -- that is, David's son. It involved great sacrifice. That is involved in the position of the remnant. I suppose it might apply to many of us who found ourselves with light and yet in surroundings, ecclesiastically, that were not according to God. A good deal of giving up was involved for many who are present, but a scripture like 2 Chronicles 11 would greatly encourage us.

J.T. I believe the ten tribes at bottom were always marked by envy from the moment David was taken up. While the Lord acted in judgment on the house of David in rending the ten tribes away, yet when they are carried away captive, God brings it up that they had severed themselves from the house of David. There was envy there, and that always works out in an attack on Christ. We see this in the calves that Jeroboam set up; it was not that Jeroboam was specially an idolater; I do not think he was. What actuated him was self-occupation. He wanted to establish himself. He knew perfectly well that the house of God being at Jerusalem would have the effect alluded to. They would necessarily go to the temple. They would gravitate in that direction; therefore he set up the calves in Dan, simply as a rival system to Jerusalem. That gives a true idea of the conditions that prevail today. Envy and the desire to retain power are at the bottom of it.

J.P. Jeroboam attempted to hold the people together by the calves -- to form a circle for himself.

R.S.S. Why were they calves that he set up? You would have thought the children of Israel had had a lesson about that in the wilderness.

J.T. I have no doubt it is an allusion to that. Note the same expression, practically, on both

occasions: "Behold thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt", Exodus 32:4, and 1 Kings 12:28.

F.L. Is not the idea of the calves imitation? A great thought in connection with the temple was sacrifice, and the calves of gold set up by Jeroboam may have been a sort of imitation of that which is of God. But another system was set up.

J.T. The sin of Jeroboam was never judged by the ten tribes. Even Jehu did not judge it, though he was the instrument of God in executing judgment on the house of Ahab. As an analogy, the clerical principle in Christendom has never been judged, even by Protestants. Jeroboam established the sin and it was never judged.

E.S.T. What is the principle you speak of?

J.T. The envy of Ephraim was at the bottom of Jeroboam's sin, and it worked out in rivalry to Christ; the clerical principle is rivalry to Christ.

W.J.N. And what made it so solemn was that the calves were set up at Bethel, where God's house had been.

S.T. That rivalry continued in Samaria down to the Lord's day.

J.T. Quite so; they said that Jerusalem was not the place, but mount Gerizim was the place where men should worship.

J.L.J. Jehu did many things pleasing to the Lord.

J.T. A wonderful vessel so far as he went, although not a spiritual man as we speak of it. He acted most ably in executing judgment on the house of Ahab, even connecting with himself a man who represented the remnant of God's people; he said to him, "Is thine heart right, as my heart is with thy heart?" 2 Kings 10:15. And Jehonadab answered, "It is". And he takes his hand and took him up into his chariot. He found a man who was with him, and he associated him with himself in the execution

of God's judgment on Ahab; and yet with all that he did not depart from the sin of Jeroboam who taught Israel to sin. The clerical principle is the most baneful thing that has been introduced into Christendom.

J.P. And nothing short of a positive work of God in the believer can deliver him from it.

J.T. I think Luther was, in a sense, like Jehu, anointed by God, as it were, to bring judgment on the house of Ahab and Jezebel; and yet the sin of Jeroboam was never judged, and it continues to this day.

J.P. Was it not judged in that young man in Ireland, who, after he got delivered, wrote the pamphlet, 'The Notion of a Clergyman, Dispensationally the sin against the Holy Ghost'? What characterises Christendom at large is the thing we have to be delivered from, and if people come together to break bread and are not delivered from it they will have a hard time of it, because the envy of Ephraim will be found there. You may get a meeting where they break bread every first day of the week and yet there may be the envy of Ephraim.

W.C.R. Ephraim seemed to be jealous of Gideon when he slew the Midianites, and they chode with him sharply.

W.J.N. I was going to remark as to what you say as to clericalism: your reference is to the principle. You are not speaking of individuals as such.

J.T. But there the thing is. Jeroboam taught Israel to sin, and the sin was never judged even by the best of Israel's kings. It did not refer to Judah, but to the ten tribes. I refer to clericalism as an analogy in Christendom.

G.F.W. There was a point in the history of the church where the principle of clericalism was established, and it has never been judged by Christendom as a whole since that time.

J.T. "The works of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate", Revelation 2:6. This may refer to it; at any rate, the fact remains that clericalism exists in Christendom, and it is rivalry to Christ.

J.P. I think it is immensely important to recognise this, because the principle of it may be found even where there is not a clergyman.

R.M.L. Why do you say clericalism is rivalry to Christ?

J.T. Because it involves another Head. Take any flock, as they call it, in Christendom under the charge of a clergyman; he is occupying the place that belongs to Christ in that assembly.

R.S.S. He speaks of them as my flock.

W.C.R. He usurps the authority of Christ.

J.T. It is anti-christian. Antichrist is that in its fulness. He takes the place that belongs only to Christ.

J.P. And it finds its full bloom in the case where a man openly declares himself to be the vicar of Jesus Christ on the earth.

W.B. It might be seen in any leader amongst so-called brethren who gathers a few around himself, and when a testing time comes they all go with him.

W.H.F. I think we have suffered more from that principle amongst ourselves than anything, else. Look back at the last forty years at the principle of clericalism.

A.McN. Would you say that anything that interferes with the work of the Spirit is clericalism?

J.T. Not quite. There are some things that interfere with the work of the Spirit that could not be called clericalism; for instance, a partisan feeling and the like. What would you say?

J.P. I would say that most certainly.

G.F.W. Would not any desire to be something amongst the saints be clericalism?

J.T. Such ambition would result in it no doubt.

A.A.T. There are other hindrances that we should be on our guard against besides the clergy.

J.T. I think radicalism is a dangerous thing. That would be the opposite of it, but it would be of the flesh just as much.

A.A.T. It becomes the remnant to keep the house in order. Clericalism and radicalism would be some of the tests.

J.T. The principles in the house of God work by love. If love is in activity it precludes all that is contrary to God.

J.P. Hence the remark made by Mr. Raven in a late reading, that the only thing in us that God would trust is the divine nature; that is love.

J.T. Now returning to Isaiah 8, the Assyrian was allowed to come up to the neck, but he went beyond his prerogative. He was God's instrument of judgment, to a certain extent, but he went beyond that. He stretched out his wings over Immanuel's land, and from that point you get deliverance and a people in the midst of the land who are conscious of divine support.

J.P. The moment he goes over the line God comes in.

R.S.S. What would the neck represent?

J.T. That he had covered the whole land, coming up even to Jerusalem. As a matter of fact we know that Sennacherib did that; so in order to see the thing fully we have to consider the historical part that shows the invasion of Sennacherib and how God acted for the remnant, but the discipline was there first. The Assyrian really came up as a judgment of God, but he went beyond his limits. He interfered with God's rights.

G.F.W. What did he do historically that amounted to that?

J.T. He blasphemed the living God, 2 Kings 19; and then you get the remnant taking it to heart;

when discipline comes upon the saints those who are near to God take it to heart. Hezekiah says to Isaiah, "lift up thy prayer for the remnant that is left"; Isaiah 37:4; and when the letter comes from Sennacherib he spreads it out before the Lord, and then you get deliverance.

J.P. That is a great place to spread your letters out.

J.T. The incident is touching. The issue now is between God and Sennacherib. Sennacherib ceases to be an instrument of discipline. He has touched Immanuel's land. He has touched what belongs to Christ.

W.B. He touches Him then in His own land.

J.T. Yes. The remnant then say: "Associate yourselves, O ye people, and ye shall be broken in pieces; and give ear, all ye of far countries: gird yourselves, and ye shall be broken in pieces, ... Take counsel together, and it shall come to nought; speak the word, and it shall not stand: for God is with us", Isaiah 8:9,10.

J.P. That is the answer: "O Immanuel". "God is with us".

J.T. As soon as anything of Christ is touched, all the power of God is against what is opposing. It was the end of the Assyrian: "God is with us". He is more than a match for all the power of the enemy.

J.B. Is Assyria heard of any more? Does it not then become Babylon?

J.T. In the last days it appears again.

J.P. Babylon goes and Assyria comes into blessing.

S.T. Is what you were saying as to God defending the remnant a similar thought to what we get in Saul of Tarsus? -- "Why persecutest thou me?", Acts 22:7.

J.T. Yes.

F.L. The prophet Zechariah gives us God's judgment in regard to that: "I am very sore displeased with the heathen that are at ease: for I was but a little displeased, and they helped forward the affliction. Therefore thus saith the Lord; I am returned to Jerusalem with mercies: my house shall be built in it, saith the Lord of hosts", Zechariah 1:15,16. And then again he says: "For thus saith the Lord of hosts; After the glory hath he sent me unto the nations which spoiled you: for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye", Zechariah 2:8.

A.R.S. I was going to say that what the remnant say here is like Romans 8:31: "If God be for us, who against us?"

J.T. And what is so interesting is they are up to the light that God had given to them. I refer to chapter 7: "Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel", Isaiah 7:14. That is the light. Now they say Immanuel -- "God is with us". They are equal to the light they have received.

G.F.W. The prophetic voice says: "Thy land, O Immanuel" (verse 8). The indignity offered to God is recognised.

J.T. It is very beautiful in the historical part to see how the servants of Hezekiah and Hezekiah himself feel the reproach offered to God by the Assyrian and his emissaries; and then they turn to God. Rab-shakeh says: "I will give thee two thousand horses, if thou be able on thy part to set riders upon them", Isaiah 36:8; and it was true; but Hezekiah turns to God; and when the saints turn to God, woe be to their enemies!

A.A.T. Who raised this cry in verse 12 about the confederacy?

J.T. It is prophetic, but it expresses the exercises of the remnant. They see the rights of God are being

touched, and they know that God is for them, so He says: "The virgin, the daughter of Zion, hath despised thee", Isaiah 37:22. It seems to me a beautiful touch; God acts through the people. The people thus would be the opposing element to Sennacherib.

J.P. He does not act outside the remnant, does He? The destruction of the enemy's power and the deliverance of God's people are brought about in that way in connection with the remnant, but in connection with their great exercises.

G.F.W. Is not that the way deliverance is effected today?

J.T. I think so. God acts through His people.

G.F.W. What I meant was that the enemy is defeated in regard to any one when the claims of Christ are set up in his soul. When any soul is set at liberty in the appreciation of Christ the enemy is defeated.

J.T. And the same thing may be seen more clearly in a company; where the claims of the Lord are fully asserted you may depend on their deliverance.

C.A. So the confidence that God is with us gives us great boldness as a company, because we know we cannot be overthrown.

W.J.N. Why is it that historically the Assyrian was destroyed before Babylon, but in prophecy the last enemy is Assyria?

J.T. I think the Assyrian represents the world-power viewed politically. When the Lord was here I suppose the Romans had the place of the Assyrian.

R.S.S. Has verse 19 of Isaiah 8 a reference to what the remnant are liable to in the way of departing from God?

J.T. It is a kind of warning to them; but the verses immediately preceding are most interesting as showing how the Lord cared for them in the presence of all these things. He was Immanuel in their midst, and He cared for them. Judaism was given

up, and they were the children whom God had given Him.

R.S.S. And He shall be to them for a sanctuary.

C.A. Would you say a little as to verse 18: "for signs and for wonders in Israel?"

J.T. That is what the disciples become, I think. The Acts shows how that worked out. They were God's sign in the midst of the nation.

F.L. We must remember, too, all this will be of great importance and value to the remnant that succeeds the church of God. They will take all this up and have the light and the good and the comfort and the encouragement of it. It will have a very great place in the day to come. They will look back and read of the Lord here upon earth amongst His disciples, and the way the testimony was deposited and carried through and has come to them.

J.T. I think so. The prophets will be a great stay to them in that day.

F.L. And they will read them in the light of the Lord's own interpretation in connection with His disciples.

J.P. The healing of the lame man at the beautiful gate is a sign.

J.T. They were to be for signs and wonders in Israel.

J.P. That was both a sign and a wonder.

W.J.N. In the first seven chapters of the Acts they are seen in the remnant character.

J.T. On God's behalf in His long-suffering patience to Israel.

J.L.J. Is that the way Hebrews views them?

J.T. Hebrews is in view of departure, and what characterises Hebrews is that God had opened up a new system, of which the centre was in heaven and not on earth.

F.L. Hebrews goes further than the first seven chapters of Acts.

J.T. It shows that the Hebrews were introduced into a heavenly system rather than into an earthly one. Hebrews supposes the abandonment of the Jewish system.

W.J.N. And it is interesting that in Peter's preaching heaven is spoken of only in connection with Christ being there.

J.T. It was a provisional state of things that God had introduced in heaven; He would wait on Israel. God would send Jesus Christ to them.

W.J.N. He speaks more of what is here for man: the Spirit and salvation.

C.A. Looking at things in that way it gives the remnant a wonderful place.

J.T. They were for signs and for wonders in Israel. God was bearing patiently with the people still.

W.H.F. What is significant in Stephen's testimony is seeing Jesus at the right hand of God, standing, that He might be offered to the people again.

J.T. I think He was in the attitude of waiting.

W.H.F. The putting to death of Stephen closed up the whole thing.

J.T. And then the centre of operations is transferred to heaven. Jerusalem had been for the moment the centre, but after the death of Stephen the centre of operations is transferred to heaven.

C.A. It would seem that the full truth of the church was held back until the testimony to Israel, rendered in such patience, was rejected.

J.T. God graciously waited upon them; but then after the death of Stephen the Lord is seen by Saul on his way to Damascus.

F.L. Up to the time that Stephen sees Him standing, Peter expresses it: "Repent therefore and be converted, for the blotting out of your sins, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and he may send Jesus Christ, who was

foreordained for you", Acts 3:19,20. He was in the attitude of readiness to come.

J.T. And I think that, taking the Acts in that way, you see how Syria and Samaria are typically overthrown in a moral way. The territory of Rezin and of the son of Remaliah come under the influence of Christ. Immanuel's -- that is, the Lord's -- influence is so extended that He overthrows the great champion of the enemy in Syrian territory. It is as if the Lord had universal sway now; Saul went into the synagogue of Damascus and preached the Son of God. This corresponds with Matthew 16; the true foundation of the church.

F.L. Philip goes to Samaria, which is really in the land, and preaches Christ. He preaches the anointed Head. Paul goes to Syria, which is outside of the land, and preaches the Son of God, who is the foundation of the church.

J.T. That means that the foundation is of a universal character. The Son of God is in heaven.

C.A. The wonderful triumph of Christ!

J.P. "That I may announce him as glad tidings among the nations", Galatians 1:16.

J.T. That was after He was revealed to him as Son.

C.A. What has come out in connection with the Acts has given development to what has been before us in connection with the remnant.

J.T. You see the great moral overthrow in the territory held by these enemies of God's people. The Lord is in heaven and He has supreme control of the universe.

R.S.S. What do you mean by saying the foundation -- the Son of God -- is universal?

J.T. Because the Son must have universal influence. God "was pleased to reveal his Son in me, that I may announce him as glad tidings among the nations", Galatians 1:16. It was as if Paul, apprehending

the greatness of the Person, must announce Him universally.

J.P. Hence the opening of Romans: "God's glad tidings concerning his Son", Romans 1:1,3.

R.S.S. My difficulty is 'the foundation'.

J.T. The foundation of the church is in the gospel. It is a question of what is presented in the gospel. That is where the foundation lies. It is Christ made known in the gospel in the souls of men.

F.L. I suppose the specific foundation is in Matthew 16; the Son of God; and then the preaching of Paul takes up that point in Damascus; and then you get the mystery -- the church.

J.L.J. Would you say there is a difference in the preaching to the Jews before Acts 8 and that which follows?

J.T. Certainly. The first seven chapters set forth God's long-suffering to the people; these signs and wonders in the testimony of the apostles; but all that was rejected in the death of Stephen.

W.J.N. Paul preaches much in common with Peter and the eleven; for instance, repentance and forgiveness and the gift of the Spirit.

F.L. But the line of the preaching in the first seven chapters of Acts was in view of the Lord returning to Israel. In chapter 8 Philip goes to Samaria and preaches Christ; and then Paul preaches the Son of God, who is the foundation of the church.

S.T. You were saying that preaching the Son of God is universal. Is that like Hebrews 3 -- Christ as Son over God's house? Is not the house of a universal character?

J.T. Quite so.

J.B. The last word of Stephen is, "Jesus standing at the right hand of God", Acts 7:55.

J.T. That is the last word to Israel. They gnashed on him with their teeth. They were putting him to death when he said that.

READING

Isaiah 9 - 12

W.B. Would you say that all that has gone before is leading up to chapter 12?

J.T. This gives us one section of the prophecy; it ends one section, showing that which the remnant is introduced into in the last days; they are in the enjoyment now of what God is to them in Zion. I think that by an examination of the different lights in which the Lord is presented in the previous chapters you can see a double way in which He is known to the remnant; first, as Immanuel, He comes in to meet their condition as needing deliverance; then you get Him in chapter 11 in connection with God's purpose, "there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse"; and then in verse 10, "there shall be a root of Jesse". The Spirit refers to the promises in regard to the King, and then subsequent to that the full deliverance of the remnant, which in a way answers to God's dealings with them at any time. We have to know God in our midst for deliverance.

W.H.F. It will have a present and future bearing.

J.T. Yes. Then we have to know Christ in connection with divine purpose. What do you say?

J.P. That is very important. I think these chapters bring out both sides.

W.H.F. Do you not think the point we need to know more of today is Christ on the side of divine purpose?

J.T. I think so.

W.H.F. On that side you get everything stable.

J.T. In chapter 11 He is seen in connection with Jesse.

W.C.R. And is there any significance as to chapter 9, "Prince of Peace"?

J.T. That is the light in which the saints have

come to know Him; "unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given".

F.L. It is connected with purpose there, is it not? It brings in His government, and peace, and His being established in His kingdom for ever.

J.T. It is connected with purpose clearly, only it is the Person simply that is before them. They have come to know this Person and to appropriate Him. He is born to them. But in chapter 11 He is viewed in connection with His generation. He is the rod out of the stem of Jesse, and the root of Jesse; showing the human and divine aspects of His Person.

Ques. Would you say that is before God as He stood as a Man: God's purpose in Him as a Man?

J.T. It is a question of the light in which the remnant come to know Him, and the same holds good with regard to ourselves. In chapter 7 He is announced as the virgin's Son, who shall be called Immanuel; that is the way God had intervened on their behalf for deliverance. In chapter 8 they recognise Him in that light; He is Immanuel. In chapter 9 they go further, and they take Him to themselves. He is theirs: "unto us a child is born". It is not a question there of whom He is born; it is not a question of generation, but the Person they have come to know, and then they go on speaking of what should be set forth in Him.

W.B. What is the difference between the rod and the root, verses 1 and 10?

J.T. Rod is the Lord as having sprung from that stock; but then the root refers to His deity. Jesse sprang from Him.

F.L. You get that distinction in the Revelation. In chapter 5 it is, "the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David" (Revelation 5:5) but in chapter 22 He is presented as the "morning star" (Revelation 22:16); when presented to hope and affection it is "the root and the offspring of David" (Revelation 22:16); the two are combined there.

J.T. In regard to the way in which our souls are brought to know the Lord, chapter 9 is very important. They take account of the Lord as born to them, and then you have what He is; "the government shall be upon his shoulder".

T.A. It says in verse 1 of chapter 12, "in that day". What day does the prophet allude to?

J.T. That refers to the future. It is a question there of a prophetic word, looking to the day of Israel's full blessing. But I was endeavouring to point out that in chapter 9 the remnant come to know the Lord personally, "the government shall be upon his shoulder". I think they say that as a result of their acquaintance with Him. That is, to make a practical application, He has become the governor of your soul. In every way in which the Lord shall be known publicly He is known to the believer's soul. Here it is not only a prophetic word, but also what He is to them as a Son given to them, a Child born to them.

J.L.J. How are we brought to know Him in the light of divine purpose?

J.T. We come to it gradually.

J.L.J. Were the children of Israel brought to know Him in that light when they crossed Jordan, or at the Red Sea?

J.T. Here He is known first of all as Immanuel, that is deliverance; but when you come to the expressions, child and son, you have affection in people. You have an expression of relationship; do you not think so?

J.P. The glory of all relationship is affection.

W.C.R. You say, "the government shall be upon his shoulder" means that He had sway over the soul of the believer?

J.T. I think so. But then it is the sway of One known in relationship.

J.P. "Unto us a child is born".

W.C.R. Why does it say, "upon his shoulder"?

J.T. The shoulder being the place of strength, He should there sustain the government. We should know this by experience.

J.P. And there is no real anticipation of what He will be publicly except as that is really known individually in the soul.

J.T. That is it. You can bear testimony to the world to come only in the measure in which the features of it are entered into experimentally now.

F.L. The whole realm of power and glory is built up in connection with those who know Christ experimentally. "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me", John 12:32. It is not compulsion; it is not a law that enforces, but it is attractive power. All that will mark the world to come is worked out in those who are attracted.

J.T. It is beautiful to see here that they speak from the standpoint of affection. They use terms that intimate that. A child and a son.

F.L. "Everlasting Father", "Counsellor", "Prince of Peace".

J.T. It goes on to that. "His name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor". It seems to me that each title given to the Lord here indicates a certain light in which the believer has come to know Him, and I would especially desire that we should get all that is in that verse, viewed from the side of experience.

F.L. Is not the whole idea of the kingdom of God essentially, that which is brought to pass through the power of Christ and the love of Christ in the soul's affections? It works that way; that what is effected for Christ in connection with the kingdom is what has been established in the soul's affections.

J.T. If you take Simeon in the temple as an example, he had the Child in his arms. He appropriated the Child, as it were. And he appreciated Him. "Unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given".

F.L. "Mary hath chosen that good part", Luke 10:42. "Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee", John 21:17, is on that line.

J.T. It is. Then they say, "the government shall be upon his shoulder". When your heart is drawn to the Person, and you appropriate Him, you gladly accord to Him the place of government. You can never appreciate the thoughts of the Lord's governorship except as you own Him in your soul.

J.P. It is affection that leads to the truth of the throne and appreciation of His greatness.

F.L. You crown Him in the day of His espousals.

J.T. It is one thing to be subdued by the Lord; it is another thing entirely when you come to view Him as a Child born, as a Son given. Affection is now present, and you gladly accord Him the place of government. This is the light in which the remnant come to know Christ, leading up to chapter 12.

J.B. Is not this the way the disciples actually did know Him, and that which was afterwards confirmed to them by the Holy Spirit. I mean the way in which He manifested Himself to them in the various gospels?

J.T. I think the greatness of His Person gradually dawned upon them.

J.B. But there was no such thing as doctrine, they got to know Christ in this way by what they found in Him for themselves.

J.T. They came to see that a Child was born and a Son given, and then they recognised His personal glory and all that hung upon that.

J.B. Do we not learn Him in the same way?

J.T. That is the point I would like to make clear.

The believer who loves the Lord readily accords to Him the place of government. You give Him all the place. You recognise the Lord in everything. He is your Governor.

W.H.F. Speaking of knowing the Lord, would you take it as the result of coming into touch with the Person?

J.T. Yes. And you appropriate Him. "Unto us"; not simply born for, or to God, but to us.

J.P. Appropriation is a step in advance of faith.

J.T. It is beautiful to see Simeon with the Child in his arms; a figure of the remnant appropriating the Child.

F.L. We have a number of cases which show how the disciples were formed on earth. When the Lord was going to death in Judea, Thomas says, "Let us also go, that we may die with him", John 11:16. It showed the reality of their love. They were ready to die with Him.

W.B. Has this anything to do with the promise to the woman in the garden -- the Seed of the woman? There seemed to be some here looking for this Child to be born. Mary was a favoured woman to be the mother of the Child.

J.T. Only you have to confine it within the circle in which it is found. It is a question of the apprehension of the remnant of Israel. It is not a question of who the mother of the Child was. Mary is alluded to in chapter 7; it is said, "a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son" (Isaiah 7:14); but here the remnant take Him to themselves. It is after He has become known to the remnant that they appropriate Him as theirs, and then seeing Him in that light they see every thought of God centred in Him; the government and everything that they might cherish is secured in that Person.

W.B. Do you think the disciples with Him in His ministry here discerned that in Him?

J.T. I think so in measure. Their apprehension was meagre, but the prophetic spirit gives them credit for it.

F.L. The Lord gives them credit. "Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations", Luke 22:28; notwithstanding that they forsook Him. You were speaking this morning of the envy of Ephraim. In chapter 11:12,13 we read; "And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth. The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim". No doubt they become one over the Child, and they are formed accordingly.

J.T. But you see in chapter 9 that, after acknowledging Him as given to them, the first thing they say is, "the government shall be upon his shoulder"; and then, "His name shall be called Wonderful". The Lord becomes increasingly great in your eyes. I believe it is as you accord Him His place as Governor you discover greater glories in His Person. He is "Wonderful".

J.P. He would hardly make this known to a soul that did not accord Him His place as Governor; but if you do you will get present compensation in the apprehension of greater glories.

A.A.T. In christianity does "Lord" correspond with "Governor"?

J.T. Yes; and you see the wonderful things He does for you; the difficulties that He solves for you; the wonders that He accomplishes for you. But then, as I said, what He does for each individual He will do publicly in a more extended way.

J.B. Does not verse 7 elucidate governorship?

J.T. It does in regard to a more extended sphere. "Of the increase of his government and peace there

shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever". That is the coming day of glory for Israel -- the throne of David; but notice, the point of view is what the saints see in His Person. It is not simply a question of God announcing these things.

L.T.F. What is "the everlasting Father"?

J.T. One who cares for you. I think it is a great thing to know the Lord as caring for you. That is very largely the idea of father in Scripture.

A.A.T. I suppose it is appreciation of these things that marks them off as the remnant.

J.T. No doubt. You get government, and then that He is Wonderful, and then Counsellor, and He takes the place of Father for us.

W.C.R. The mighty God.

J.B. There were some that said, "We will not have this man to reign over us" (Luke 19:14) in contrast to those mentioned here.

R.S.S. I suppose Thomas's confession, "My Lord and my God" (John 20:28) is connected with the mighty God here.

F.L. I suppose the Lord in resurrection amongst His disciples conveys the idea of Prince of Peace. He opens a sphere of peace and puts them upon it in resurrection.

J.T. The mighty God can accomplish anything.

F.L. That is what He does. He comes amongst them and says, "Peace be unto you", John 20:19.

J.N.H. I suppose the reason that you dwell so much on the first part of this sixth verse is because we are very deficient there. It would be a great thing to have our souls exercised as to how far we are in the good of it.

J.T. When you see that it is the outcome of what the remnant has come to know of the Lord experimentally, it gives it a new character.

A.A.T. Would the man in John 9 correspond to those referred to here?

J.T. I think so. You get the idea there. The remnant pass from one point to another, moving on in their apprehension of the Lord till ultimately they reach the sphere of purpose as in chapter 12. Chapter 11 presents Him to us in connection with Jesse, so you are led to God's purpose in the line of David.

L.T.F. "Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" were all wrapped up in the Child. That is the idea, is it not?

J.T. Yes.

J.L.J. After we learn Him as Wonderful, then we take counsel from Him.

J.T. I think we do. It brings in the headship of Christ, because counsel is all in the Head.

A.A.T. You are dwelling upon how great it was for the remnant to see these things in this Person. There must have been some movement in their souls previously, and their eyes opened to Him. I suppose this has taken place with all of us. Is not that a step before appreciating Christ?

J.T. I think that you get in Mary in Luke 10 the idea of one who valued the Lord as viewed here. She had some sense of what He was. She sat at His feet.

A.A.T. Is it in the measure in which we learn Him now that we shall enjoy Him hereafter?

J.T. I suppose so, but you see His fitness for the place He occupies in God's counsels from your experience of Him now.

J.P. That is very important. I think that prophecy and the prophetic scriptures have been taken up as a kind of study, and there has been nothing more than an exercise of the intellect, and men have acquired a certain ability to express what

will take place in the future; but I think that the Lord is speaking very distinctly to us at this time, and that is, on the side of the subjective state of our souls, and I think it is of great importance, because I suppose that what we see in these chapters is the progress of the remnant. If it is to be taken up in its application to us, it indicates a spiritual progress in our souls, and I think what has been pressed is very important, "unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given". Unless you can say that, I do not think it will do you much good to recite the rest of the verse; but if there is the appreciation of Him in your own soul it clothes all the future with a wonderful reality.

W.J.N. Is it challenging our affections? Is that the point?

J.P. Of course it is.

J.B. Yesterday we were speaking of the shepherds and the announcement made to the shepherds; "unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord", Luke 2:11.

J.T. You see the announcement of the glad tidings to the shepherds; then they go and see for themselves. They act upon the light communicated to them through the angel. They go to Bethlehem. They say, "Let us now go even unto Bethlehem, and see" (Luke 2:15) and they went and they saw and then they began to speak in the whole country about Christ. That is, they verified for themselves that the Child was actually born to them.

J.B. They were affected by the testimony.

J.T. They proved it. So in Matthew with the wise men from the east. They heard and they came and sought Him and they found Him.

J.P. It is the man with the Babe in his arms that can tell what that Babe is for Israel and the gentiles; but you must have Him in your arms to do that with any effect.

C.A. So I was thinking in order to be in the good of this -- "unto us a child is born", there must be that state of soul which was found in the remnant.

J.T. What I see is, that you "go". There is movement. If you preach the gospel because another has told you about it, you will not have any power. The shepherds heard the gospel and they said, "Let us now go". Now it seems to me that is what we have to do. They went to Bethlehem and they found the Child and His mother, and then they preached. Then when you come to Simeon you get a further movement, that is, he goes by the Spirit into the temple (he does not go to Bethlehem) and he finds Jesus in the temple, and then you get a most wonderful unfolding of what should be set forth in that Person. But in each case you have to move if you want to come into contact with the Lord.

C.A. Will you kindly explain the movement?

J.T. I think when light comes to a person it involves that he is to move, and if he moves he moves in the direction of Christ, because the gospel makes clear where the Lord is to be found. The angel intimated that He was born in Bethlehem, in the city of David; the place was intimated; the gospel always indicates where the Lord is to be found. Simeon was led by the Spirit into the temple and he found the Lord there.

W.J.N. Light has come in to produce movement.

J.T. And the movement will lead you to the source of the light.

T.A. Where will you find Him?

J.T. That is a very proper question.

S.T. It seems the shepherds and wise men were both directed of God.

J.T. Yes; the latter by the stars, and the shepherds

were guided by the angel's word as to where he was; in, David's city.

J.P. The light indicates where He is and desire moves the soul to find Him.

G.F.W. Anna was already there in the temple.

J.P. I was thinking about our brother's question about movement. I think you will find in Scripture that spiritual movement is always in desire. An old writer said that desire was to the soul like the sails to a sailing ship; you may have a well-rigged ship and there is a favourable breeze, but if the sails are not spread, there will be no movement; it is the desire that moves the soul. I remember in a certain place where I was, not long ago, a young sister followed me out into the street and said, 'I can truly say I desire that which you have been setting forth'. 'Well then', I said, 'you will allow me to congratulate you; you are moving'.

J.T. The psalmist said, "One thing have I desired of the Lord, that will I seek after", Psalm 27:4.

J.P. You will generally go after the thing you desire.

F.L. What about the answer to that question?

J.T. I was thinking of that. You will have to consider as to where the gospel presents the Lord now. He is not in Bethlehem, nor in the temple in Jerusalem. I would say the gospel presents Christ at the right hand of God as an Object for faith. I was going to add that it is a great thing to have the heart set in connection with the centre, and I believe the Spirit of God in the gospel presents to us Christ in heaven as an Object; but on the other hand, as to where affection finds Him, I believe He is found where Simeon found Him, and that is in the temple.

J.L.J. You mean found in a centre down here.

C.A. That is very important: the difference between faith and affection.

J.T. I think we ought to make it very clear that

the divine centre is in heaven -- that is, as we have had it this morning, transferred from earth to heaven. Our citizenship is in heaven -- "Jerusalem above", Galatians 4:26. This refers to the divine centre on high. Whilst you find the Lord in the temple on earth, you maintain the connection with heaven. Would you say that?

R.S.S. I would.

G.F.W. What about the statement of the gospel presenting Him as available for every one?

J.T. That is for faith. Evidently He is not here personally. He is presented for faith.

C.A. Faith views Him at the right hand of God, but affection seeks Him amongst the saints.

J.T. Certainly.

W.C.R. The apostle spoke to those at Colosse, "Since we have heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints", Colossians 1:4.

J.T. The two things go together. Faith connects you with heaven. Faith has no reference to anything on earth, but affection has reference to what you find here in the sphere of the Holy Spirit.

W.H.F. Would you say that faith lays hold of Christ where He is, seated at the right hand of God, in the place of supreme exaltation; and the other line is you reach Him in the assembly by the power of the Spirit?

J.T. I think that presents it, but you never disconnect what is available on earth, as privilege, from heaven; because today it is a heavenly system you are connected with.

F.L. The only statement of the gospel that the Lord gives us from heaven is helpful on this line. I would like to read Acts 26:15 - 18. The point of it as I understand it is, Christ Himself is the object: "I am Jesus whom thou persecutest" (Acts 26:15), "faith that is in me" (Acts 26:18), and then, "inheritance among them which are sanctified" (Acts 26:18), which latter is the other side; and it

is the Lord's own statement from the glory as to the elements that Paul should preach.

J.T. Therefore you would say that the inheritance is found amongst the sanctified ones.

W.J.N. Is there not a heavenly side to the inheritance as in 1 Peter 1:4: "an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you"?

J.T. The inheritance is reserved in heaven. Heaven is specially prominent in epistles written to christians from among the Jews.

G.L.S. The question was, Where will you find Him? John's disciples said, "Where dwellest thou?", John 2:38.

J.T. Quite so. He said, "Come and see", John 2:39. He did not tell them, because the road, as it were, that they were on leads to that. Follow the road you are on; there is no name to His home. Where the divine home is is not formally indicated. It is to be found out.

J.L.J. Because it has reference to a sphere.

J.P. And it is moral. The point is, "Come and see". You will find it.

R.S.S. John 1:18: "The only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father".

J.T. Quite so. It is a moral sphere, but the point is, "Come and see".

J.B. It is not a certain place.

J.T. You could not define the place; the wise men had to follow the star.

J.H.C. They sought and they found.

J.T. Yes.

W.J.N. Do the two things go together, that is, light from God brought into the soul by the word, and then affection for Christ?

J.T. I think so, normally.

W.J.N. I was thinking about the multitude in John 2; it says they believed when they saw the

works of power; works of power do not necessarily bring the soul into contact with God.

J.T. It has to be moral. The Lord did not attach value to them. What the Lord did attach value to was a man who came to Him by night. That man was in need of something. These things are all outside of the natural intelligence. You can only discern them by the result produced, as the Lord says, "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth", John 3:8. It is outside of our knowledge, but you see the effect of it.

J.P. I was thinking of Butler's Analogy and Paley's Evidences; they are two notable books, but I do not suppose they ever brought a soul to Christ. They are products of cultured minds. I was thinking of it in connection with our brother's remark. What is of God is outside of everything that is of man as such. The mind of man has asserted itself in the history of christianity and it has been given a great place; a great many people recognise it, but it does not bring people to Christ. It does not set them in divine motion.

F.L. I suppose it was a very small percentage of those benefited by Christ who followed Him and were counted as the fruit of His ministry; the benefit of christianity to the civilised world has been gigantic, but as to its moral effect it is very small.

J.T. You may see the saints here and in other meetings, and you may say -- That is the house of God, but after all you do not see it all. "God's dispensation which is in faith" (1 Timothy 1:4); that is, His dispensation has reference to His house. It is a system of things which has a moral feature to it, and that is altogether outside of man.

E. I suppose the question asked by Thomas called forth the true answer from the Lord. "I am

the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father but by me", John 14:6.

J.N.H. What is the thought about night being connected with Nicodemus? He is represented as one who came by night.

J.T. There can be no doubt that he did not wish to be seen coming, but he came to Jesus. He had light, for he recognised that the Lord was a teacher come from God.

F.L. The night may be an allusion to the moral darkness that existed. The light shone in the darkness.

G.A.H. Why would you say that there is not more movement? It may be the object is not properly presented in the testimony. John's testimony, to Christ -- "Behold the Lamb of God!" (John 2:26) directed souls to Him.

J.B. Would you say that lack of affection would be another hindrance?

J.T. There are many things that one might speak of that hinder. Nicodemus did not come out fully as a disciple until the Lord died.

S.T. It may be we are not as much in the state for the Spirit to direct us as Simeon was.

J.T. It becomes a question for each conscience as to what is hindering, as to why there is not more movement.

A.A.T. Mr. Stoney used to pray that the hindrances might be made manifest to him.

W.H.F. Coming to Christ in connection with the soul's need is one side, but there is another side -- affection and the desire to be with Him.

J.T. There are those two sides in the history of the believer's soul; that is, you come to Christ for relief, and then you come to Him as the living Stone.

W.H.F. I was thinking of that. Peter on the water has often been referred to in connection with coming to Christ on the line of affection. He wanted

to be with Him. It was not a question of getting anything, but he wanted to be in His company.

J.T. When you come to Isaiah 11, verses 1 to 9, the Lord is presented, not according to what He was to them, but as related to the line of David, and what He would effect as such. Then in verse 10 it says: "And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious". Now I think that in this chapter the Lord is viewed, not now as born to the people, but in connection with divine purpose, seen in the line of David.

J.H.C. Looking forward to His reign, I suppose.

J.T. Yes. The first part of the chapter refers to what will come in more directly in connection with Israel, but the second part shows His universal position.

J.P. Verse 12 says, "the outcasts of Israel" and "the dispersed of Judah" besides the nations.

Ques. Is there a spiritual application of this to us now?

J.T. I think so. I think you get the Lord as an ensign, as a gathering centre lifted up, and envy departs under His influence; as it goes on to say in verses 12 - 14. You see there the tribes brought together in unity under the influence of Christ, and I believe the same thing holds good now.

G.F.W. That is, unity is brought in under the influence of Christ.

J.T. Yes.

W.C.R. Was it similar to David reigning in Israel? All were brought into unity through his reign.

J.T. And you will notice, as we have had it already, the envy of Ephraim departs; but amongst God's people there is not only the envy of Ephraim, but in Judah that which vexes Ephraim; that has to be seen to. We have dwelt upon the envy of Ephraim, but you may get, with those God has taken

up in His sovereignty, a want of thoughtfulness and consideration for Ephraim. Judah does not vex Ephraim any more. They had been accustomed to do so.

J.N.H. The thoughtfulness of love.

J.T. I think so. What is presented is the wonderful effect of the influence of Christ over them.

J.P. There is nothing one-sided.

S.T. I suppose we find that in the counsel that Rehoboam got. Ephraim was vexed by Judah.

J.T. A very good point. Had he considered the advice of the older men the situation might have been saved.

F.L. I think we often see that.

G.F.W. To get it brought down to where some of us can get hold of it, would that principle come out when a christian who had, or thought he had, a good deal of light was inconsiderate of others?

J.T. Sometimes the older ones are displaced, and there is want of regard and consideration for them.

F.L. There is that which is corporate here too. Perhaps we may be set for the right thing, but the way in which things are handled and brought out may be wrong, and it sorely distresses the honest spirit and conscience of others. You are set for the right thing, but the way in which you do it does not commend itself, and the conscience of others is alienated. Any one who has been with us for years can look back and recall times when the right thing was done but the spirit in which it was done was not right.

J.T. God may be with a person, or a company of persons, in the main, and yet they may not be devoid of vexing their brethren unnecessarily.

F.L. It was only recently a matter came up where

one had to say to the saints, 'Is the thing that has been done right?' 'Yes'. 'Well, try and not mind the spirit in which it has been done'. Still Ephraim had been vexed.

R.S.S. When does this take place?

J.T. It is the future. It is the recovery of the whole of the tribes of Israel under Christ.

R.S.S. Would this be the introduction of the kingdom and the millennium?

J.T. I understand it so. And then you see in the closing verses of chapter 11, "And the Lord shall utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea; and with his mighty wind shall he shake his hand over the river, and shall smite it in the seven streams, and make men go over dryshod. And there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt". I think you have an allusion there to death; that God overthrows it for them, so that they come up to Zion.

F.L. Now there is a highway. The thought is extremely beautiful as bringing out the effect of the death of Christ.

J.T. It is a wonderful thing to see the divine highway. There is no, room on that highway for the flesh. The divine highway is opened up through death and resurrection.

J.L.J. Joshua 3 corresponds; the ark stands in the midst of Jordan and all pass over.

W.C.R. Would not the first part of this chapter have a very practical application now, where you get the subduing of all these different elements which are natural, so that they dwell together in peace?

J.T. Yes. You get the wolf and the lamb dwelling together. A wonderful thing to have two such animals brought together!

G.F.W. The lion eating straw like the ox.

J.T. The nature of the beast is changed. In the assembly of God, under the influence of the Lord, nature is reversed; the wolf is not what he was -- things become altered.

F.L. I would like to add to what you were saying about there being no way for the flesh, a verse from Isaiah 35"And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein. No lion shall be there, nor any ravenous beast shall go up thereon, it shall not be found there; but the redeemed shall walk there: and the ransomed of the Lord shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away", Isaiah 35:8 - 10.

J.T. It is a magnificent passage. It is the highway to Zion.

R.S.S. It is very remarkable that all that will be established here on earth.

J.T. Yes. It is earthly blessing that is in view. It is God's great triumph for the remnant, and they are brought into it. This chapter is not limited to Judah, it is the whole twelve tribes; a way opened for them through death and resurrection into Canaan.

R.S.S. Are others not brought in?

J.P. Yes; the nations. "An ensign for the nations"; that group of nations which in the prophetic scriptures is always connected with Israel.

J.T. It is, however, the remnant that is immediately before the Spirit here; "there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people".

J.P. So chapter 12 is really the celebration of the remnant.

R.S.S. Does that close the section?

J.T. Yes. So now they say, "in that day ... I will praise thee". You feel how God has got His

full portion in His people. "O Lord, I will praise thee: though thou wast angry with me, thine anger is turned away, and thou comfortedst me".

W.J.N. Would you say that in chapter 11 you get the remnant in principle apprehending Christ in the light of God's purpose, and then you get unity, and then praise?

J.T. What I think chapter 11 sets before us is the Person of Christ as the Offspring and Root of Jesse, and the effect of His great influence over Israel and universally. Every trace of the serpent disappears.

W.J.N. In principle, good today.

J.T. In the assembly; and then you see how the remnant is specially brought in on the ground of death and resurrection, so that they go to Zion.

J.P. And they are in the good of Exodus 15; "God is my salvation".

S.T. I was thinking you have indicated that these wonderful things which will come to pass are no greater than Jew and gentile brought together in one body.

J.T. Not so great. What we have now is connected with heaven. We have all they will have, but we have something they will not have.

J.H.C. "They shall look on me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him", Zechariah 12:10. Is that brought in before this?

J.T. That will be the same time, but it presents a different side of the truth. Here it is God's intervention for the remnant and what He does for them; He opens up a highway into the land, and as in the land, in life, they praise.

F.L. Zechariah presents more the repentant side in them.

J.T. Yes. The Lord's persecution in the midst of Israel is not in view in this section of Isaiah.

F.L. Here it is a question of God coming in for the remnant.

R.S.S. Verse 11 says, "And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people". What is the reference to the second time?

J.T. It is an allusion to the first taking them out of Egypt.

J.P. It is like the last clause of the last verse of chapter 11.

A.R.S. Would this highway in verse 16 correspond to the opened door in Revelation 3:8?

J.T. An opened door is an opportunity, an opportunity that love embraces. The Lord has set before us an opened door and no one can shut it. It is a wonderful thing that a handful of people are enabled to go on and bear testimony. The highway here is out of captivity and death into life.

A.R.S. What would correspond to that today?

J.T. I think what is announced in the gospel through the death and resurrection of Christ. God has opened up an highway for man out of death and bondage into life. Chapter 12 contemplates a sphere of life in which God gets His praise.

G.F.W. "A path which no fowl knoweth, and which the vulture's eye hath not seen", Job 28:7. Would that correspond?

J.T. There it is; a path known only to faith.

G.F.W. That would be the way today. It is the resurrection path.

T.A. What is the distinction between chapter 12 here, and the song that the children of Israel sang when they crossed the Red Sea?

J.T. There is one difference in verse 1: "though thou wast angry with me, thine anger is turned away, and thou comfortedst me". This does not appear in Exodus 15. This song contemplates a more intimate knowledge of God than Exodus 15. Here the people

are in the land and in Zion. But they are in the good of what Exodus 15 presents, "God is my salvation".

J.P. You were speaking of its being a sphere of life. I suppose that praise is the proof of that, as a beautiful line in one of the hymns expresses it, Praise issuing forth in life alone; here you have praise issuing forth in life.

J.T. And in Hezekiah: "The living, the living, he shall praise thee", Isaiah 38:19.

C.A. Praise only issues from the living.

J.T. And then you have activity in verse 3: "Therefore with joy shall ye draw water out of the wells of salvation". It is not an irksome thing. It is not that which they did in the days of their bondage; "with joy shall ye draw water out of the wells of salvation".

J.B. Has this any reference to the waters of Shiloah?

J.T. This is the divine fulness. The waters of Shiloah were God's provision, but they were not wells of salvation. Here you have wells. A well is an inexhaustible supply.

F.L. That is what the man of resurrection brings in -- Isaac. He digged the wells.

T.A. They could not sing verse 6 on the bank of the Red Sea.

J.T. "Cry out and shout, thou inhabitant of Zion: for great is the Holy One of Israel in the midst of thee". They are dwelling in Zion here. There in Exodus 15 it was, "Thou shalt bring them in, and plant them in the mountain of thine inheritance, in the place, O Lord, which thou hast made for thee to dwell in, in the Sanctuary, O Lord, which thy hands have established", Exodus 15:17. That was anticipation; here it is actuality.

C.A. In verse 5 you get, "this is known in all the earth". What about that?

J.T. God's great works are known universally.

G.A.H. But the company convened in worship goes beyond this, does it not; the christian company?

J.T. Yes, it is connected with heaven.

J.L.J. Because you get the value of His ascension there.

J.T. I should like to come across a company up to this. I should regard that as a place in which to stay. Salvation is in great fulness, where it could be characterised and spoken of as wells of salvation. It is not here simply that there is no fear of briers and thorns; it is that the thing is in such fulness that it is spoken of by the Spirit in this way.

J.P. There is "neither adversary nor evil occurrent" (1 Kings 5:4) here; they do not need bows and arrows.

C.A. Would not this be in connection with the rivers of living water?

J.T. Living water conveys a different thought. "Wells of salvation" refer to deliverance from the enemy's power, and it is in such fulness in Zion, that it is presented in this inexhaustible way. But the water of life has life-giving power. That is Ezekiel's point of view.

S.T. I was thinking of what was engaging the Jews at the time the Lord spoke in John 7. Was it not a special occasion at that time?

J.T. It was the feast of tabernacles; the greatest day in Israel. It was the great day of the feast. But I do not think it is there a question of salvation, but of life. "Out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water", John 7:38, showing the greatness of the believer; that the believer in Christ in his own person should be greater than the feast of tabernacles. This was a great testimony to Christ.

S.T. I was thinking of it more in contrast, as you have brought it out.

J.T. It is not only that Christ is greater, but that even the believer in Him is greater than man's greatest day.

W.J.N. Is not the last day the eighth day?

J.T. It was the great day of the feast.

R.S.S. But here it is not a question of life. We have been considering the remnant in their difficulties, and the way God comes in for their deliverance, and therefore it is wells of salvation.

C.A. Would you say Simeon was drawing water out of the wells of salvation when he took the Child in his arms?

J.T. He had salvation in his arms, but he was going to die. It was all in the future in his case; but it was there in the Person of Christ, although not effective then.

F.L. It strikes me as the exuberant joy of those who were brought into the security and the peace and the blessing of God; not that their enemies were simply driven back, but they do not exist; it is the culmination, it is the point to which they have been brought, so it is expressed in language which implies there is no end to it; it is overflowing and there is nothing whatever to dim it.

J.B. In full accord with their song.

J.T. There is testimony as to what God has done; "make mention that his name is exalted. Sing unto the Lord; for he hath done excellent things: this is known in all the earth".

J.N.H. Is it true that salvation is always connected with the earth?

J.T. I think so. It has reference to the overthrow of the enemy's power.

J.P. It seems as if the last two verses are almost like an exhortation: "Sing unto the Lord; for he hath done excellent things: this is known in all the earth". What the Lord has done, the excellent things, that Jehovah has done, call for a song; then the fact of His being in the midst of Israel calls for crying out and shouting: "Cry out and shout, thou inhabitant of Zion: for great is the Holy One of

Israel in the midst of thee". I suppose that, in principle, you might say verse 5 is what is called a believers' meeting, and verse 6 the assembly. Mr. Stoney used to call a meeting where they only praised the Lord for what He had done, a believers' meeting; but it is on account of One who is in the midst when you come to the last verse.

J.T. That is a very helpful distinction. It is all right to praise the Lord for what He has done.

J.P. But it is a greater thing to cry out and shout because of His being in the midst: "Cry out and shout, thou inhabitant of Zion: for great is the Holy One of Israel in the midst of thee".

GO UP HIGHER

Luke 14:7 - 11; Revelation 4:1

The passage in Luke 14 was especially pressed on my mind in connection with the need for keeping lowly in this world, and that the testimony of God is connected with those that are lowly. You will find in the Scriptures that those who are thus lowly, and so qualified to be the custodians of God's testimony, receive elevation. Now it is just with the thought that we might close with that, that I venture to say a word.

I believe it is a thought that is carried through Scripture from the beginning; that God in the sovereignty of His ways reserves a special place of blessing. You will find it in the garden of Eden. Eden was a wonderful place, but the garden was eastward in Eden, specially prepared of God as the abode of man. Then you will find in the ark, Genesis 6, an allusion to relative elevation. The ark was prepared according to divine appointment, and so was to be made with lower, second and third storeys; that is, God was indicating that in the order of things which should obtain before Him there should be degrees of elevation. And so in the tabernacle; there was the holiest of all, the holy place and the court. There you have, whatever way you view it, degrees of moral elevation, for in one sense the holiest of all refers to heaven. You get the same order in the temple, and in addition to that you have three tiers of chambers; the third more elevated than the second, and the second more elevated than the first. So in that way, I think, God indicates to us in the Scriptures that in the order of things that is to obtain before Him there are to be degrees of elevation.

Now what I wish should remain with us in a special way is that in God's sovereign ways we come in for that which is highest. We cannot say why it is so. The parable in Luke 14 contemplates, in a sense, the whole universe. God is supreme in it. It is His house. There are high rooms and low rooms. What I would like to convey is, that God produces in this present dispensation an order of people that are morally qualified for the highest place; that is to say, they come into the house in the most lowly character. How do they come into the house? They come in by invitation. We have all come in by invitation. If you will observe one who has really received the invitation from God, so as to come to Him through Christ, he comes in in a lowly character. Christ was the lowliest of all who ever trod the earth, and the message takes character from the vessel. A man that has been really affected by the gospel has a distinctive character as he comes in; he is lowly; he takes the lowest room. That is a sure mark of one who has rightly received the gospel.

The gospel is God's means of inviting; the house is large; it has many rooms, and the man who has rightly received it proves his reception of the gospel by the way he behaves himself directly he enters the house. So the moral of the parable is: "whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted". Now I think that in the house today the great effort is self-exaltation. Naturally everybody is set for that. If we cannot attain it in the world, very often it happens that the church becomes the field for our ambition. It is so in the history of the church. There is no doubt about it. The fact is this, that the conditions at the present time in Christendom afford a wide field for human ambition; from the See of Rome down to the smallest parish a wide field is

offered for the ambition of man. Men often choose the church as a sphere of activity, and they come in with all their talents, with all their education, and what is the end? Self-exaltation.

Well now, God is the owner of the house. It is a very wide sphere, but God rules it and one day He will, as it were, inspect the house. The guests will be taken account of. These will include everybody in Christendom, for professedly all have responded to the invitation. But the upper rooms are all filled and the lower are nearly all empty. Now when the Owner comes in, things will be reversed. The few who occupy the lower rooms shall hear the words of Christ, "Go up higher". That is what awaits those who, in humility, take the low place now. That is what awaits the remnant of God. The remnant are really brought into existence by the gospel. It is the gospel come to man through Christ that brings about a people here upon earth who are morally of heaven. A man who is morally of heaven, who bears the heavenly character, takes the lowest room on earth; and the lowest room on earth means the highest in heaven.

Now John in Patmos was in a very low room. He was there "for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus", Revelation 1:9. He represents the remnant. What produced John? Acquaintance with Christ. John was the product of acquaintance with Christ, and that is what the remnant is. John knew what it was to be near to Christ. He leaned on Jesus' bosom. He lived near to Jesus, so near as to become like Him; he became heavenly, and if Jesus was away, every interest of His was precious to John. He was in exile for the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. But he was visited there! He had a visitation. The Lord is the Owner of the house, and He was moving about in the house; He came to John, who, as I said, occupied, as it were, a low room. In that

room he received the Lord. He was in the Spirit on the Lord's day and he heard a voice behind him as the voice of a trumpet. He had a visitation from the Lord.

We may expect a visitation also. We can only get it in the lower room. Chapter 4 is the upper room; the Lord is up there, but in chapter 1 He is down below: He visits John in prison. If there is anything that I should like to make clear, it is the sovereignty of Christ. He acts according to His pleasure. You cannot govern Him. He is sovereign, and if He visits John it is according to His sovereign pleasure: He comes to him. Then He indicates to John what was going to happen: "What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia", Revelation 1:11. But He had also a word for John's heart. He says, "Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore", Revelation 1:17. The Lord thus encourages His servant, and confirms him in his position. As suffering for the testimony we get divine visitations and fresh accessions of light.

When you come to chapter 4 John's release has come. The Lord had been walking in the midst of the assemblies. Do you not think He took notice of the people in the upper rooms? Do you not think He took notice of the church dignitaries, of their pomp and their pride? He walked in the midst of the golden candlesticks. He was inspecting, and He knocks at the door of the last church. It does not say whether anybody lets Him in. He knocked, and if any man would hear His voice and open, He would come in to him. The man who would open would, no doubt, be in the low room. The Lord would come in and sup with one who opened to Him, and he should sup with Him. This refers to the Lord's attitude at the present time.

When you come to chapter 4 He has gone on high; the trumpet voice heard on earth in chapter 1 is heard in heaven in chapter 4, and what does it mean? John says, "I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven". The Lord is opening the door of the upper storey, so to speak. He has reserved the upper storey. Noah's ark had a third storey, as I was pointing out, and the temple suggests the same thought. God in the sovereignty of His ways has reserved the upper storey for the saints of the present dispensation. They are a heavenly family; they are of heaven, and the Lord has reserved a place in the upper storey for those who are heavenly; but, as I said at the beginning, the heavenly are marked by lowliness on earth. They partake of the character of the heavenly Man on earth. "Behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet". It was the voice that had sounded on earth. It is the same voice, it is the voice of Christ saying "Come up hither". It is really, in the principle of it, what we get in Luke 14"Friend, go up higher".

May the Lord greatly help us! We have had before us as to the conflict for the testimony. It is a conflict, but the armour involves lowliness here. The conflict is not carried on by those in the high places of the earth, but by men such as John who are in the isle of Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus; but the moment is coming when we shall see the door opened in heaven. The moment is near. It is not far off. John had to wait, and we may have to wait a little longer, but in the meantime, as faithful to Christ and His testimony, we shall get heavenly visitations; and we shall soon see the door opened in heaven and hear the voice like a trumpet talking with us, saying "Come up hither".

THE ASSEMBLY: ITS HEAVENLY CHARACTER

John 12:20 - 34; John 20:14 - 20

J.T. What I have chiefly before me is the heavenly character of the church as the vessel of testimony; the testimony in her hands takes a peculiar character; it is now in the hands of a heavenly company, and is maintained here after a heavenly fashion. Also, that as maintaining the testimony in the absence of Christ, there is suitable elevation resulting from it; that is, the book of Revelation shows that the church has a heavenly place, and as seen in heaven, and coming out of heaven, she is identified as the bride, the Lamb's wife. She had graced the house in His absence, had taken care of things, as the "virtuous woman" in Proverbs 31, she had seen well to the ways of her household in the absence of the Lord -- hence the corresponding glory.

J.B. You would say also that the testimony itself has a heavenly character.

J.T. It has, only that it embraces all that had preceded it. Every thought of God from Abel onwards was deposited in the church. "Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples", Isaiah 8:16.

J.B. I was thinking of John 3:31, where John says, "he that is of the earth is earthly", and the Lord is referred to as the One who came from heaven, and what He had seen and heard, that He testified.

J.T. The Lord coming in took up everything that God had given expression to and put it all together; indeed, it all referred to Himself, so that things took form, and in that way the whole of the testimony partakes of a heavenly character. The fact is that the ark was typically that in which the divine testimony was preserved. The Lord took up everything that God had given expression to and maintained it,

and He committed all that to the disciples: "Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples". What I would like to see clearly is that the New Testament shows that the disciples were elevated morally as partaking of the heavenly character, so that they were qualified to take up the testimony during the absence of the Lord.

R.S.S. It was that which you were seeking to bring before us this morning in connection with Sarah and Rebekah, Rebekah really filling the place that had been left vacant by Sarah, and much more.

J.T. That is it. I think that two passages help to show how the disciples, as coming into the light of Christ's resurrection and ascension, became practically heavenly. Chapter 12 does not go beyond resurrection, but chapter 20 does. It presents to us the heavenly Man, and it shows that these who should be His associates are also heavenly.

R.S.S. I was hoping that we all got the benefit of what you said this morning, calling attention to the fact that it is resurrection in chapter 12. The man whom the Lord had raised from the dead, Lazarus; but then, as you are saying now, in chapter 20, it is a further thing; not only the Lord risen but ascended. It is as such that He enters.

J.T. That is a very important distinction; I have only seen it lately, because I have been accustomed to connect chapter 12 with the assembly; and there is a connection, as the assembly participates in the resurrection as well as Israel; but Israel does not appear in chapter 20 till the second appearing, verse 26. In the first appearing, verse 9, it is the saints viewed in the light of being the associates of the ascended One.

J.P. Israel, as such, never will be a heavenly company, will they?

J.T. No. I think that following the course of the Scriptures the first allusion to the church is Eve, in Genesis 2, and it does not go on to what is heavenly;

it is simply a question of the derivation of the church; she is derived from Christ. But when you come to Rebekah (directly Isaac is seen as risen you get the genealogy of Rebekah), her genealogy is presented, and when you come to chapter 24 Abraham makes Eliezer to swear that he is not to take a wife for Isaac from the daughters of the Canaanites. He is to go to another country for her. So that I think you have a step further seen in the fact of another country, that she comes from another land.

R.S.S. A heavenly one.

J.T. Yes. Not only of the stock of Isaac, but she comes from another land. And therefore I think one can see her typical dignity as coming into Sarah's tent; how she would grace that scene; how she would fill Sarah's place.

W.H.F. Suitability is connected with being of Isaac's kindred; she was of his kindred.

J.T. And Abraham, in Genesis 24:1 - 4, speaks of where she must come from.

R.S.S. Would you lay emphasis on "my country"?

J.T. Although Canaan was the promised land, it is here viewed as the land of the Canaanites, answering pretty much to what the Lord found in Israel. It was really the land of the Canaanite, a strange place to Him; so the church comes into view, not as taken out of that land, but out of another; His own land.

A.A.T. I do not know if I am anticipating you in connection with Rebekah -- how Isaac was comforted in the response of love there, having lost his mother.

J.T. That comes in; it is a question of the Lord's affection being met and satisfied, but, as you say, it is a bit in anticipation. It is very important to get clear where she comes from; not only what stock she belongs to, but where she comes from.

J.N.H. Do you see there the thought of the "better country" that Abraham looked for?

J.T. Not quite that.

J.N.H. I do not quite see your meaning: he was speaking of the country that he had been told to leave.

J.T. The country in which he dwelt is for the moment regarded as the Canaanite's country, Genesis 12:6, and 24:3. It is not viewed for the moment as the land of promise. Typical things do not always have the same meaning in Scripture. When he says here, "go unto my country" (verse 4), we have to interpret that from a spiritual standpoint. It was Abraham's country. When the Lord was on earth the land of Israel was His, but the inhabitants were strangers really; and so in John 12 you get the judgment of the system of things there: "Now is the judgment of this world"; the inhabitants were foreign; there was nothing there out of which the Lord could derive anything for Himself, hence the necessity for a new generation; "my country" I think, refers to heaven.

J.P. I was thinking how perfectly the gospel of John shows out all you have been saying, because, as has often been remarked, in John's gospel the Jew is the world morally, and the Lord is seen in the midst of the Jews as a heavenly stranger; how could He derive anything from that scene?

J.T. It is alluded to in John 3 that no one could witness of heavenly things but He that came from heaven. He was a heavenly Man and "in heaven" morally; and John bears testimony to Him that, "he that cometh from heaven is above all", John 3:31.

J.P. "He who has origin in the earth is of the earth, and speaks as of the earth. He who comes out of heaven is above all", John 3:31.

A.A.T. In what way is it true that Rebekah came from heaven?

J.T. It is a question of a spiritual application.

All that the church is morally is the product of the Holy Spirit forming us after Christ in heaven.

C.A. The formation in the saints has a heavenly character.

J.B. You would attach a good deal of importance to "my country" and "my kindred".

J.T. That is it; and John the baptist, who was pre-eminently the earthly minister, recognised that a heavenly Man must take precedence, and he says, "He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom ... rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice", John 3:29.

J.N.H. I have often thought about Rebekah and her people: literally, they would not represent a heavenly people.

J.T. The point is, it was Abraham's country and Abraham's kindred.

T.A. Does not Genesis 24:14 characterise the church in a way?

J.T. It sets forth her grace.

W.H.F. So you see that Rebekah was not only kindred to Isaac, but came from another country -- from heaven.

J.T. That is a point of great importance; none other could be suitable.

W.J.N. It is important, too, when you speak of the church as heavenly, to distinguish between what the saints are as men in flesh and blood, and what they are as formed by the Spirit of God.

J.T. As formed by the Spirit you are formed after Christ in heaven. The condition made by Elijah in answer to Elisha's request was that if he should see him when he was taken up he should get the double portion of his spirit; it was conditional, and I believe what is alluded to is that the Spirit is the Spirit of the ascended Man. When Elijah was taken he was taken up, and you may depend upon it, Elisha was on the alert; Elisha had walked and

talked with the risen man, but he saw the ascending man.

W.J.N. And as a result Elisha comes out as the heavenly man here.

J.T. He comes out with a double portion of the spirit of the ascending man, and what followed on that was that the mantle fell. He did not ask for the mantle.

R.S.S. Your point is, that when Elijah passed through Jordan and Elisha with him they are then on the ground of resurrection; but then it was when he saw him ascend that he received the double portion of his spirit. It depends on more than resurrection; that is, on ascension.

J.T. So that Elisha went back into the land morally from heaven, with the spirit of a heavenly man; and then in addition to that the mantle of Elijah fell from him. Elisha had not asked for that, but it fell from Elijah and Elisha took it up.

R.S.S. I suppose we have a further confirmation of that from the fact that the Spirit has been given by an ascended Christ.

J.T. That is what is alluded to. As they were gathered together there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind and it filled all the house where they were sitting. "From heaven". It was something new introduced from heaven, and it filled the house where they were sitting, and sat upon each of them: so that you have the anointed vessel, anointed with the Spirit from heaven.

L.T.F. Was that what Elijah's mantle typified?

J.T. The mantle has to be distinguished from the Spirit. The Spirit is what is inside of you, whereas the mantle is outside. The mantle is your dress, that which men see, and in each case it is what has fallen from heaven.

J.P. It is the heavenly character coming out in the saints.

W.B. Do you get that in Ephesians?

J.T. Yes, in chapters 5 and 6, etc. It is what is external.

J.B. The garments would express the spirit of the man, they are more outward. John the baptist's clothing is mentioned.

J.T. The mantle refers to that which was seen in Christ in the gospels.

F.L. I suppose there is a further point: that upon that which is external comes the anointing of the Holy Spirit which goes down to the skirts of the garments from Aaron's beard.

J.T. That would be an additional thought -- referring to the Spirit coming from Christ in heaven to the saints on earth.

F.L. And, I think, a thought of great meaning -- the anointing. As to the marriage, the relationship and country, is it not rather interesting to see how much that line of things comes out in Genesis? Sarah's tent is occupied by Rebekah; following that comes in Keturah, I suppose indicative of the taking up again in a day to come of Israel after the church is removed; and then if we follow on we find that Esau, a profane man, takes wives from the Canaanites which were a grief and sorrow to Isaac and Rebekah, and he took wives from the daughters of Ishmael; he got a near imitation to the real thing; it was kindred to Abraham according to the flesh, but a purely fleshly one. It is what we see around us.

J.T. Ishmael's daughters would have the character of "Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children", Galatians 4:25.

F.L. Man according to the flesh thought he was getting near the right thing when he took up the natural kindred, but it is very different from going

and getting Rebekah from Syria and bringing her to Sarah's tent.

R.S.S. John 12 refers, you say, more to resurrection.

J.T. That is what I understand: "Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit".

R.S.S. That is resurrection.

J.T. Yes, it involves resurrection.

F.L. That is a further thought than the resurrection you get at the beginning of the chapter.

J.T. The scene in the opening verses refers to Israel.

F.L. It is resurrection brought into view to make association possible.

J.T. The antitype of Genesis 2. I think you will go with us.

F.L. Quite, and I suppose it lies at the root of Hebrews 2, "all of one".

J.T. But it does not go as far as John 20.

W.B. Does not association imply ascension?

J.T. In John it does although in a certain sense Israel will have that place according to the earlier verses of chapter 12: "Lazarus was one of them that sat at the table with him" (John 12:1); Lazarus being the risen man. Would you go with that?

J.P. Yes, I would.

J.T. Israel will have a peculiar place; no doubt the Song of Songs would show that.

F.L. I suppose the idea of association comes in upon resurrection ground, and then the heavenly position of the church is a further thought than that.

J.T. Association for us, I think, is only on heavenly ground.

R.S.S. But for Israel not so.

J.T. No.

J.S. I was going to ask about the Greeks here:

"Sir, we would see Jesus". Does it bring in something entirely new, and the Lord goes on to speak about His death, that on the ground of His death the gentiles were to come in?

J.T. Just so. "The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified". The Greeks suggested that to Him; they suggested the place He had in God's counsels as the Son of man; universal dominion belonged to Him, but for the moment He could not take that up; He has to die.

J.L.J. Do you make a difference between the supper in chapter 12, and His coming into the midst in chapter 20?

J.T. Chapter 12 refers to the affection found in the remnant of Israel, Mary and Martha and Lazarus forming a sort of picture of the remnant at Bethany; there was affection for Christ and if there is affection for Him you will signalise it in some way; there is something done for Him, so there they made Him a supper; and then the Spirit tells us that Lazarus was one of those that sat at the table with Him. It is an allusion to the last days, when the Holy Spirit will have formed affection for Christ in the earthly remnant, and they will signalise it. The Song of Songs are a great help in that direction, showing the relations between Christ and His earthly bride; the presence of Lazarus points to the fact that they would be in relation to Christ on the ground of resurrection. But in chapter 20 they are gathered as having the testimony of Mary Magdalene.

J.P. And this was a testimony to ascension as well as a testimony to resurrection.

J.B. John often anticipates things, does he not?

J.T. Yes. I believe it is very important to see in chapter 20 that Mary had told them she had seen

the Lord and that He had spoken these things unto her. She told them what He had said to her. He had sent her with a message and she delivered the message.

W.J.N. There was not only the message then as to association, but the thought of new relationships came out in it: "unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God".

J.T. "I ascend unto my Father". Not only that the Father was theirs, but that the Father was in heaven. He was ascending to Him.

R.S.S. If you look at the phraseology of the passage critically, is not the point of the passage "I ascend unto my Father"?

J.T. That is what I think; the emphasis is on ascending.

F.L. Also that it is equally true that the Lord gives immediate effect to what He had said in the end of chapter 17, in addressing the Father: "I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them" (John 17:26); and so the fulfilment of what you were calling attention to this morning in Psalm 22.

J.T. But I think it is the Father as in heaven that He declares. He had made the Father's name known to them as the Jewish remnant.

F.L. And then He says, "I will declare" (Psalm 22:22); the ascension and the declaration necessarily go together.

J.T. The thought of ascending gives character to the revelation of the Father in relation to the church, because He had already brought the Father in. He taught the disciples to pray to the Father. The Father will be known undoubtedly in the millennial state of things by the Jews.

F.L. The whole point from chapter 13 on is that He was going to the Father, and therefore everything that He would do takes character from that; and

so the declaration of the Father's name and ascension go together here.

J.T. So that it is God known in heavenly relationship as Father.

R.S.S. And was not that the point in connection with Mary: "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended"?

J.T. The relations could not be resumed on earth; they were broken, but they would be resumed in relation to the Father in heaven.

C.A. The fact that He was going to ascend gives the church a heavenly position.

R.S.S. In the company He does not tell her not to touch Him.

J.T. There is no restriction there. You can see in Genesis 24, the assembly's place as from heaven; and here also, inasmuch as the saints are viewed as the brethren of the heavenly Man, and His Father is their Father. Abraham said, "go to my land and to my kindred" (Genesis 24:4); the saints are morally from heaven.

F.L. It is striking that in Matthew 28 the message He sent to the disciples is, "go tell my brethren that they go into Galilee, and there shall they see me", Matthew 28:10. It is not "I ascend unto my Father".

J.T. That helps us greatly, as showing the difference between the two gospels. In Matthew He does not ascend.

W.C.R. When the Lord was here He told the disciples to rejoice because their names were written in heaven. Was that in anticipation?

J.T. I think so. Luke does not present the church strictly, but the place that man is to have as showing the excess of grace -- a place in heaven.

R.M.L. Is that the sense of being enrolled; that is, where they belong?

J.T. Yes; but John shows the origin of the church as to the stock from whence it springs and the country

from whence it has come; so that it is here for the moment in the way of testimony; it graces the house.

C.A. In that sense the church comes from and goes back to heaven.

J.T. Just as the Lord, in a sense.

J.P. In John 20 they rejoiced when they saw the Lord.

W.C.R. In chapter 14 where He says, "I go to prepare a place for you" (John 14:2), is that heaven?

J.T. I think so, only it is more a question of relationship -- "my Father's house"; but their place would be special.

J.H.C. Do you say His connection with God as Father will be shared by saints in the millennium in the same way as by the church?

J.T. Not in the same way, but you get "The Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, of whom every family in the heavens and on earth is named", Ephesians 3:14,15. All the families are in relation to the Father, but the Scriptures show that from the outset God had indicated that there should be something special. This is a question of God's sovereignty: what is special is reserved for those to whom He pleases to give it.

S.T. These things agree with what has often come out in connection with John's writings -- that he brings things out of heaven.

J.T. He brings heaven into view. It is what is heavenly upon earth, but it reverts to its own place.

R.S.S. Would what we are speaking of now help us in our apprehension of the Lord as coming into the midst; that He comes not merely as the risen One but as the ascended One?

J.T. That is most important; it is the heavenly Man that comes into our midst.

J.L.J. He brings into the midst all the value of the Father's name.

J.T. He does. He brings the atmosphere of the heavens.

A.A.T. Is it possible to come in in resurrection apart from association?

J.T. It is not possible now because He has ascended.

R.S.S. Many of us may have had difficulty in regard to John 20 as to this point; that, as a matter of fact, between the time that He spoke to Mary and the time that He came to the disciples on the evening of that day, the Lord did not actually go to heaven. But as I understand it, John 20 presents things in the form of a pattern.

J.T. It does; historically, the ascension took place subsequent to all this.

R.S.S. And we get in this chapter the pattern of that which afterwards took place. He breathed on them; this is also pattern.

J.T. So that you have to put John 20 and Acts 2 together to get the two sides of the truth. John 20 is an inside view. It really took place in Acts 2, but it is an inside view. Acts 2 gives the outside view; what was apparent.

F.L. The Scripture is very careful in that respect; it does not say the Lord did not ascend to the Father, but just leaves it; because what is given is the moral force of the thing apart from the question of time.

J.T. It is not a question of what is historical.

F.L. It is not a question of time; it has nothing to do with time; it is the moral sense of the thing. I suppose Paul doctrinally refers to this order of things when he says, "if even we have known Christ according to flesh, yet now we know him thus no longer. So if any one be in Christ, there is a new creation", 2 Corinthians 5:16,17. Doctrinally that is the same idea.

J.P. I am thankful for the remark as to omitting thought of time, but association comes in in

verse 17, and if we accept it as a divine pattern we cannot omit it from what follows; if you omit it from verse 19 you are marring the pattern. It comes in in verse 17, "I ascend"; it is not a question of time; it is brought in in its moral characterising power, if one may speak so.

J.T. What is here presented in pattern really took place in Acts 2 in a spiritual way, only that this is the inside view of it.

L.T.F. He took that character at that time, the ascended character.

J.T. Exactly. It is the pattern; but historically, in Acts 1, Christ ascended, and the Holy Spirit came in Acts 2.

S.T. Does John give us what comes out of heaven?

J.S. Does not the Lord speak of ascending very early in John's gospel; "What and if ye shall the Son of man ascend up where he was before?" John 6:62. Ascension is in view from the beginning.

J.T. Certainly; but in regard to our brother's remark, what I think comes out in the Scriptures is this, that what goes to heaven comes out of heaven. It is the second Man that came out of heaven.

S.T. I thought that was the character of John's writings; he brings things out of heaven.

J.T. That is it; they are brought into this world for the moment, but they revert back, as I understand it. So, for instance, Revelation 12the man child is born of the woman, but he belongs to heaven, and therefore he is caught up to God and His throne; and really that includes the assembly.

J.B. In 2 Corinthians 12, the man in Christ goes to heaven -- "caught up to the third heaven", 2 Corinthians 12:2.

J.T. It is that kind of a man who goes; you get the third storey there.

R.S.S. Of course, one would speak with great reverence, but even in connection with the Lord

Himself in His condition of flesh and blood in the body in which He was pleased to be here, that even did not go to heaven; that is, flesh and blood did not go.

J.T. He took that condition for a purpose, but as regards His Person; "What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?" John 6:62. You feel it is beyond you; and again in chapter 3, "the Son of man which is in heaven".

F.L. So in 1 Corinthians 15:47: "the second man, out of heaven".

J.L.J. Do you get the thought in Ephesians 2:10: "we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus".

J.T. Quite so. If we are "created in Christ Jesus" we are created in Him as in heaven.

F.L. 2 Corinthians 5:2; "clothed upon with our house which is from heaven".

J.T. And, quoting from the same chapter, as you were saying, "henceforth know we no man after the flesh", 2 Corinthians 5:16. Paul did not know the Lord after the flesh.

F.L. This is a verse one would rather have expected to have found in Peter, for instance, instead of Paul.

L.T.F. Does not that mark out Paul clearly from the twelve?

J.T. He laid hold of Christ as the heavenly Man, and his great commission was to bring in the heavenly bride, not in an external aspect, but according to what she is in her relations to Christ, so he says, "that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ", 2 Corinthians 11:2.

C.A. I was going to say what you have before you is a step in advance of what we have been accustomed to. We have taken account of the Lord as a risen Man coming into the midst, but it is the ascended Man.

J.T. That is clear from this passage.

J.B. Does not the description of Rebekah, when Eliezer calls her; her beauty and grace and conduct, all indicate that she partly belonged to Isaac?

J.T. You feel the servant would engage her with Isaac. In Paul you see the energy of the Spirit in gathering out a bride for Christ that he might present her as a chaste virgin. He was in dread of the power of the serpent to beguile the saints as he had beguiled Eve.

F.L. I think that Paul comes remarkably near to the spirit of Eliezer in that sense, in the spirit in which he goes out to find what belongs to Christ, and the character of his ministry to preserve and keep it so that it should be presented in that way.

J.T. I think from the way he presents the mystery to us he is the only one who fully answers to Abraham's servant. In him the energy of the Holy Spirit was seen as answering to Eliezer.

F.L. And I was thinking with regard to ministry in the present time, that it is a great help to have a proper appreciation of what the bride is really to Christ, and what the thought of Christ is with regard to the bride. I think we thus catch something of the spirit that Paul expressed in the verse you quoted.

S.T. Is there not a point in Genesis 24 in that the servant is not named?

J.T. The name is not given. We know who it was, but we do well to note what you say. "Abraham said unto his eldest servant of his house, that ruled over all that he had", Genesis 24:2. That is, he was the most important servant; the one he could trust most.

R.S.S. Could you help us a little on a point that is very important and comes in in this Scripture we are looking at now; as to how we apprehend the Lord in the midst? We have been saying, this chapter is a pattern of what exists now of the assembly, and if it is a pattern of that, I am sure we want to get the good of the reality of it now.

J.T. I think chapter 20 is, properly speaking, what you might call the inauguration of the assembly. It presents to us the assembly as inaugurated here upon earth, but as heavenly. If one might use the simile, it is like the king opening parliament. He may open it in person, but then parliament is left to its own resources in a sense; it is organised and has all that is necessary to enable it to carry on its business. It acts for the king, but he opens it. Now I have thought of it in this way, that the king might return at any time; at any rate, I know the Lord has that right. In enacting the laws parliament would have the king's moral support, for the speech from the throne indicates what is in his mind; and what is done receives his sanction. Although he might not be with them in person, he would be with them morally; and I think that as acquainted with the Lord, any time He would come, we would recognise Him. Due deference would be paid to Him. I believe that the saints, as knowing Him, would pay due deference to His presence. The presence of the Lord is not an imaginary thing. It is real. It is our greatest privilege.

E. He is only seen by the spiritual eye.

J.T. That is true. Not but that almost any one would be affected by the presence of a divine Person, yet I believe that state is requisite in order to enable us to realise His presence.

J.B. Would you say the assembly is convened on heavenly ground as well as on resurrection ground?

J.T. I do not quite say that. The assembly is properly brought together by the Lord's supper, and I distinguish that from gathering together in His Name, in Matthew 18. The Supper, I believe, as has often been said, is the rallying point or means the Lord has for calling us together; 1 Corinthians 11 says so: "When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper", 1 Corinthians 11:20. It is

easy to see that he implies that it ought to be to eat the Supper. They were not conducting themselves properly, therefore he says, "this is not to eat the Lord's supper". But normally the convening of the assembly is to eat the Supper.

R.M.L. In what character are the saints there?

J.T. I think it is as in our wilderness character, as in the scene where the Lord is absent, and because He is absent.

J.P. And the convening of the saints takes account of the saints in their actual condition, and hence you could hardly say they are convened on heavenly ground.

J.T. No, we are even in the presence of the world. The Supper is partaken of in the presence of the world. It is testimony.

J.P. And we are not actually on resurrection ground.

J.T. But in the Lord coming into our midst the ground is changed. What takes place then is spiritual, and so, in a way, hidden ("your life is hid", Colossians 3:3), whereas the Supper is outwardly seen by all. It is what we do in a material way, and is therefore under the eyes of the world, but the presence of the Lord is spiritual; that is not seen by the world; "the world sees me no longer", John 14:19.

J.P. That changes everything.

A.A.T. What is the occasion of His coming into the midst?

J.T. The Supper, the breaking of bread.

A.A.T. Then we are in the wilderness up to that?

J.T. I am afraid to define things too much; the assembly convened is not strictly the wilderness, but it may be regarded as in a contrary scene, and in it we are identified with the Lord's death. The Lord's death is an historical fact, which can be taken account of in the world. We come together knowing that

the Lord is absent, but then He comes to us, and in His company we may be withdrawn in our minds and hearts from what is contrary; from the consciousness of it.

R.S.S. We are here on the earth, and what we do is under the eyes of the world; it is a testimony; we are connected with the Lord's death, and we announce that.

J.T. The Lord is made known to us in the breaking of bread, and that leads to what is heavenly.

R.M.L. In what character would the saints be viewed then?

J.T. As the companions of Christ.

R.M.L. And previously more as a redeemed company.

J.T. Just so; those who have benefited from His death. We are His disciples. The disciples came together to break bread.

A.A.T. How long does the Lord remain with us in the midst?

J.T. I do not think we are entitled to say anything about that, but I am clear that what takes place in a material way is under the eyes of the world; the bread, the cup, and the box refer to the wilderness -- the place of Christ's absence.

C.A. So that any unbeliever in the world can take account of that.

R.S.S. You distinguish between the Lord's supper and coming together to pray.

J.T. Any number of the Lord's people might come together in His name; it may be better that some should be absent, but you cannot have anybody absent in the assembly; it is for all. The Supper is for all, therefore gathering together in assembly refers to the assembly, every member of it.

R.S.S. But in coming together for prayer that is on somewhat different ground; you are gathered in the Lord's name in connection with His interests.

F.L. So it should be those who are exercised; they are more concerned about His interests.

T.A. Is it necessary for each to be in the light that we are as a whole company gathered as one?

J.T. The Supper helps in that way; it puts us into proper relationship with each other practically.

J.B. It is the Lord's supper.

J.T. The very expression shows us it is not a heavenly position.

E.H. Does the thought of new creation come in there at all?

J.T. The thought of new creation brings in the land. It is in the fact of new creation that we are able to join Him. You are risen together with Christ in Colossians, but you are also quickened; it is in virtue of being created anew in Christ that we have moral power to join Him.

W.H.F. In connection with coming together to remember the Lord, it is what we do; we come together to break bread; we come together as brothers and sisters, and after that is over things are rather connected with the Lord as Head.

J.T. Yes.

Rem. And this produces worship.

G.A.H. Would you make a difference as to a hymn before and after the breaking of bread?

J.T. You have to do with the Lord before, and the thought of righteousness comes in: the box is therefore right; it is in relation to our position here in this world. Many may participate in that who do not pass over to the other side, because the other side depends on a state formed by the Spirit.

R.M.L. At the outset, before the breaking of bread, would you speak of forgiveness and such like?

J.T. It might not be out of place.

G.A.H. Nor a hymn not connected with purpose so much, but more with redemption.

J.T. And having reference to the Lord personally and His rights over us; His rights of love.

J.B. Mr. Stoney used to say you greet the Lord with a song.

W.C.R. Does not the actual breaking of bread and partaking of the cup especially bring the Lord before us, as in Luke 24?

J.T. I think so.

F.L. That is 1 Corinthians 11; chapter 10 is more our side.

J.T. The Corinthians were not celebrating the Supper in an orderly way; therefore the apostle says, "this is not to eat the Lord's supper", 1 Corinthians 11:20. It should be carried on in an intelligent and spiritual way. Paul says, he received it from the Lord, and what he received was what the Lord did in the presence of His disciples.

A.F. Is it not the love that led Him into death that comes before us?

J.T. You love Him and so feel His absence; you want Him to come again; He has promised to come to us.

F.L. As a figure, Mephibosheth would help us. If he knew a place where he could meet David quietly, and David could come there I think he would have been delighted. He was there all the time in the sense of the absence of David: we have a sense of the absence of the Lord. He has appointed a place where we can come and meet Him, and we are delighted to do it.

R.S.S. You said a little while ago that in regard to the apprehension of the Lord's presence the question of state came in.

J.T. I think the convening of the assembly includes all the saints. You could not exclude any

believer from the assembly because in the mind of God it includes all. I am speaking now according to the normal conditions, as at Corinth; but then many may come and yet on account of not being quickened by the Spirit, there is no ability to leave seen things. The assembly properly realised is out of view; it is spiritual, and many are not morally strong enough to abstract themselves from what is seen and to enter on the unseen.

C.A. So it is of great importance that we should desire to be great enough to enter into that.

W.J.N. From the moment that the bread is broken; that is, when things are in a normal condition, you would say the Lord takes the place of Leader.

J.T. He must if he comes in. Every right minded believer recognises that Christ must take precedence.

W.J.N. Till then it is more the Lord on our side of things.

J.T. Yes.

W.B. What are the restrictions which prevent many believers taking part in the Lord's supper? We do not see them all together.

J.T. The restrictions are clearly indicated in Corinthians. If a man is participating in evil he cannot be allowed to participate in the Supper. But then there are those whose privilege it is to partake of it, and they do not partake of it, and that is a very solemn thing for them.

F.L. I think in the present day that it can all be summed up in two words; ignorance and moral state. Every believer could break bread, but for his ignorance or his moral condition. They are the only two things I know of.

J.T. And you feel their absence, do you not?

F.L. The older I grow the more I feel it. I used to think I had got the right company; now I feel a great part of the right company is not there.

R.S.S. "He shewed unto them his hands and his side". What is the application of that now?

J.T. I take it to be the marks of His death; the proof of His love; the way He makes known His love to us.

R.S.S. Would that be expressed in the loaf and the cup?

J.T. I think so.

R.S.S. They form a double witness in that way; His hands and His side.

E. What does John 6; eating His flesh and drinking His blood; have reference to?

J.T. I think that is a question of life for the individual. It is not a collective thing.

R.S.S. Evidently the Lord's purpose in showing His hands and His side was that they might identify Him.

J.T. That is it; as the very One who died; He makes Himself known to them in that way. They could not doubt it was He.

R.S.S. I think the Lord would now identify Himself to us.

J.T. And does He not do that in some way? There is some indication that it is He Himself and not another.

R.S.S. I would like help on that.

F.L. In John's gospel is there not a special meaning in the side being mentioned? the blood and the water came out of His side.

J.T. It was out of Adam's side that the rib was taken, out of which Eve was formed.

F.L. In John's gospel the soldier pierced His side, and "forthwith came there out blood and water", John 19:34.

We do not get that in Luke's gospel. It is His hands and feet there.

J.T. I believe that John gives us the last Adam.

F.L. I was thinking of John's epistle in connection with it.

J.T. I have no doubt as to the side of Christ, we have been taken out of it; we are formed out of it.

R.S.S. I do not expect there is anything greater for us, in a spiritual way, than apprehending the Lord's presence, and I am sure where there is desire in that direction that the Lord would immensely help. You feel as though He wants to be known, to be identified, to be recognised by His people, and I am sure He would respond to every simple desire in the simplest way.

J.T. And He would not disappoint affection. In the Song of Songs He came to the bride, and she was not ready and He withdrew.

R.S.S. I think sometimes saints get a little discouraged on this line, and think there are others who are more up to it, and they are troubled about it, but I am sure that as apprehending the Lord's thought and heart for you He greatly encourages you in responding to it.

J.T. At the same time the Lord would gratify our expectation. It is a very holy expectation, that we should look for the presence of the Lord in the midst of the gathered company, and He would always answer such an expectation.

W.H.F. J.N.D. said we should know when the Lord comes in and when He goes out. And Mr. Stoney remarked he knew when the Lord went out, but it was not so easy to tell when He came in. I believe the importance of the truth that we have under consideration now is very great.

J.T. How are the saints to be maintained in heavenly garb? It is only by coming into contact with a heavenly Person. It is not merely by knowing

Him by faith as presented in the gospel; you have to come into contact with the heavenly Man, and the presence of the Lord in the midst of the assembly imparts the heavenly character to us.

T.A. For the soul that is bound up with Him in affection there never exists any distance in a certain way.

J.T. No, in a certain sense; but there is something special for the assembly, and that is the presence of the Lord. I believe that the book of Numbers presents a heavenly people upon earth, and one injunction was that there should be a ribband of blue attached to the borders of their garments, showing that the testimony in the wilderness was to be heavenly, Numbers 15:38.

F.L. I think what you were saying about not knowing the Lord as by faith in the midst is very important. We have often heard that the Lord is there by faith; that does not do. We do not know it by faith only.

J.T. No, it is a real Presence.

J.N.H. And it is important to see that Matthew 18 would not be the same thing.

J.S. Would you say a word on John 20:22; "he breathed on them"?

J.T. It is presented in relation to His Person; that He is the last Adam.

J.P. The disciples were quickened into His own life to enjoy the association which the Lord established.

J.T. Breathing the Spirit of that heavenly Man is a wonderful thing.

Ques. Does the Lord not come till the breaking of bread?

J.T. The Lord is Sovereign and you can never restrict Him; but I do say that the assembly convened is the place in which you would expect Him to be; and you have scripture for saying, "he was made known to them in the breaking of bread", Luke 24:35.

J.N.H. If I understand you, the assembly convened is to break bread. That would confirm what has been said, that there are no other assembly meetings, strictly speaking.

J.T. I think the assembly is properly convened to break bread.

J.N.H. So when the disciples came together they came together to break bread. It is often used in connection with prayer and the reading meeting.

F.L. You would not say the assembly is only convened at the breaking of bread; there are abnormal circumstances; the trumpet might sound and the congregation be gathered together for something special; for discipline, for instance: 1 Corinthians 5.

ELDERSHIP

Revelation 4:4; Revelation 5:5,8 - 10; Revelation 7:13 - 17

I wish to say a word, beloved friends, in regard to eldership, and so I have turned to these scriptures. I take eldership to be the result of experience acquired in identification with the testimony of God. Hence it is that which lies at the end of christian experience. What I have to say therefore will take the form of the consideration of experience through which God passes His people.

When God gives an expression of any feature of His testimony, you will find that a course of experience follows, so that the divine thought should be worked out in man. God never forgets His testimony; it stands out as the standard with which the experience consequent upon it has to agree. The Lord Jesus Christ was the Son as man here upon earth, and every feature of God's testimony was expressed in the Son becoming man. God took occasion to call attention to Him as "my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased", Matthew 3:17. There was the proclamation from heaven in regard to His Son, and every testimony of God found expression in Him.

Now the Lord has left the earth, but ere leaving it He set up the divine standard, and the history of the assembly under divine teaching and culture is to bring out in result, in the experience of God's people, that which agrees with what was set forth in Christ. Hence the great importance of experience; as the apostle Paul says, "I have learned", Philippians 4:11. We have to come to that; we have to learn.

The Lord in Matthew 11, having borne testimony to Israel, was rejected, and He looks up and thanks the Father in the presence of His disciples. He is in all the liberty and dignity of a Son with a Father; and He is going to carry out all the Father's thoughts

in that liberty and dignity. Furthermore, He speaks of revealing the Father, and thus He stands forth as the model, directing attention to Himself as the Son; He says, "learn from me", Matthew 11:29. The Son is the great model, and we have to learn from Him. We have to take the yoke of the Son upon us, which He says is "easy, and my burden is light", Matthew 11:30. There we have set before us the divine standard; and the heavenly city is the answer to it.

The heavenly city comes down from God in the liberty and the dignity of the spirit of sonship. She comes down, she is not sent down; and she has the glory of God. She comes down, the most wonderful spectacle conceivable, the answer to the divine standard set forth in Christ, and the marvellous product which through all these centuries God has been working to produce. He never deviates from His standard; He works patiently in our souls so as to bring us to that which is in perfect agreement with His standard, and that is seen in the heavenly city. The heavenly city is very much on my mind, having been suggested by what some of us have been considering, but I only touch on it now in connection with the position taken up by Christ in Matthew 11. He is the only standard; the Son in all the consciousness of the Father's affections is the model; we have to learn from Him, and God never deviates from His standard. The outcome of it all is seen in Revelation 21 -- the holy Jerusalem, the heavenly city. It is a marvellous picture, and it is the result of the experience wrought out in God's people by His Spirit.

Turning back to the Old Testament for a moment, we shall see how these principles obtain there. I may say here that all the saints from Abel downward were in the light of the Son in some sense. I am not prepared to say in what measure, but I have no question about it, that in some way or other there

were glimmerings of light in regard to Christ as the Son, and some trait of His character was in measure set forth in every man of faith from Abel downward. Abel is an example. To say nothing of his offering, he was a keeper of sheep. That was the foreshadowing of a trait of Christ, for the Lord Jesus Christ, beloved friends, is the true Shepherd. Thus some trait of Christ is seen with every man of faith. They were, so to speak, elders; by faith "the elders obtained a good report", Hebrews 11:2. The character of Christ was being built up into their experience; this is what marks an elder.

Now if God gives expression to any feature of His testimony, He is never diverted from it until He brings it to pass in the experience of man here upon earth. I wish especially to speak of government; for the elders here, as you will observe, are connected with the throne. God gave expression to His thought in regard to government in Noah. God deposited in that man a testimony; he was to rule over the new world. We know how he failed, and how he was unable to rule himself; he was devoid of the experience of a ruler. He had affection for his house, and he prepared an ark for the saving of his house, but he was devoid of the ruler's character, for he was unable to rule himself. But the testimony of God must be maintained, and hence the next man of faith, Abraham, has the spirit of the ruler; he has it in his conception of government; as if God had said, It fell to the ground in Noah, but it shall be maintained in Abraham. He took Abraham into His confidence on the ground of the fact, among others, that he would "command his children and his household after him", Genesis 18:19. There you get God reverting to His testimony committed to Noah. He had not forgotten it. He knew Abraham, He knew that He had put something into that man;

that He had formed him in such ways that he would maintain His testimony in his own house.

Well now, we find subsequently that God intervened in connection with Abraham's seed, and having delivered them out of Egypt, He would be their Ruler. He never departs from any of His thoughts; He would be the Ruler of His people. That began with the ministry of Moses. Moses, as we know, represents not only the Lord Jesus Christ as our Deliverer, but also as our Ruler, for he was "king in Jeshurun", Deuteronomy 33:5. Though not an official king, he represented the authority of God in the midst of His people; God was King. That state of things continued until the days of the judges, which brings to light the solemn fact that in spite of all their privileges every man was his own king; "there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own eyes" (Judges 21:25), and there was complete departure from God's testimony.

Elimelech, in Ruth, is the typical Israelite of that day. His name signifies that Jehovah was king, and yet we find him leaving the land and going into Moab. That shows he was but little in the light of what his name conveyed. In the book of Ruth God amends that situation by the introduction of the king in prospect. Obed was the father of Jesse, who was the father of David. In other words, before the people sought a king, as recorded in the book of Samuel, God had already prepared the king. He knew Abraham beforehand, and He knew David before He anointed him; before God chose him, David was a man after God's own heart. What we find in the history is that God set up the kingdom in Saul. The people wanted a king; it was better to have one king than to have every man a king, and so God acceded to their wish, and helped them to acquire a king. It was wonderful grace, but God had His own thought in it. He was giving them an

opportunity to see what He could do in regard of His testimony, as under rule in His king. There was complete breakdown in Saul, but God had David in view.

Now what I want to show is that even in David you find the same principle; that there must be experience and exercise. After he was anointed he had to spend a long period of time going through the most terrible experiences; so that, as thus disciplined and taught of God, he should become a qualified vessel to maintain divine rule. David is the typical king, and hence the Spirit of God takes him up to convey to us in inspired words what a king should be. "He that ruleth over men", says David in his last words, "must be just", 2 Samuel 23:3. That was in his heart; it had been wrought out in his experience, so that he could tell what a king should be: "ruling in the fear of God, and he shall be as the light of ... a morning without clouds", 2 Samuel 23:3,4. But David could not come up fully or answer morally, to the divine idea. A "morning without clouds" could only find an answer in Christ, but it is very beautiful that in the last words of David we get that perfect expression of what a king should be, 2 Samuel 23.

We have in these instances a confirmation of what I have been saying in regard to the New Testament. Both Abraham and David found their full and complete answer in Christ. We have in Christ, One who ruled His house perfectly, and One who exercises the power of the kingdom perfectly. Now eldership must of necessity be the result of experience wrought out in our souls in the light of what shone so perfectly in Christ, and I have taken these verses in Revelation as giving a true idea of eldership. It seems to me that it is the goal, as it were, to which each of us should look forward. As the Lord Jesus Christ takes us up, making the truth of the gospel a reality in our souls, and relieving

us of every soul trouble, He would direct our attention to Himself. We see an illustration of that in John 9. The Lord says to the man to whom He had given sight, "Dost thou believe on the Son of God?" and the man replied, "Who is he, Lord?" "Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee", John 9:37. Thus the Lord reveals Himself to him, and he worships Him! That man is captured, beloved friends, and Christ henceforth is his model. We need to have that before us.

The "twenty-four elders" in Revelation 4, represent the whole company of God's people, as I understand it, from Abel onward, but it is God's people viewed in the light of having acquired experience in suffering, toil and conflict. The Holy Spirit directs our attention to the experience that is to be acquired by learning from Christ. Now there is a great deal of experience that is not that; experience that results from our eye being on another model, and there is no growth as the result. If you have a slave in your house, that slave has the spirit of a slave; he has not the spirit of your child. There are many slaves among those known as God's people, and there is much experience among them which is not that which produces eldership; there is legal experience. The great thing is to see Christ in the presence of the Father -- to see the Son. If God wishes to express that which is most precious to Him, it is the Son; not simply the Person, but the Person who stands in that relation to Him as Son. "God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son", John 3:16. It is the Person who stands in that relation to God. We need to get hold of that; it is the kernel of the gospel; to get a hold in our souls of the position that Christ has as Man with God in sonship. It expresses on the one hand the gift; He who was most precious to God the Father, has been given; and on the other hand,

that Man stands in all the liberty and dignity of a Son with the Father.

Now that is the true starting-point of christian experience; any other leads to "Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children", Galatians 4:25. That is seen in Christendom. Jerusalem which now is, is in type mount Sinai -- a legal system, and God has a perfect title to cast her out at any time. He will do so, for Jerusalem which is, is in bondage, is a slave. Hagar was a slave, and Abraham had a right to cast her out of his house; but the true wife remains in the house. Jerusalem which is above is free; her place is in the house for ever, and she is "the mother of us all", Galatians 4:26. We remain in the house with our mother. It is the conception of sonship as seen in the Lord Jesus Christ as Man with the Father. That is the true beginning of christian experience, but that experience becomes very wide. Testimony branches out, I might say, but once you are in the liberty of sonship in your soul it is wonderful how every feature of experience takes character from it. There is a certain dignity about you. In everything that you do, in everything that you say, in all your manner and deportment there is a heavenly dignity; and it increases; there is constant increase, beloved friends, until, as John puts it, you attain to the degree of a "father", and nothing more need be said to you than, "I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning", 1 John 2:13. He wrote unto them, in other words, because of what they knew, and of what they had acquired by experience.

Now what we find in Revelation 4 is the result of the experience which we acquire here upon earth as the sons of God, as having learned from Christ. Having taken His yoke upon us, we are "meek and lowly in heart"; we have found rest to our

souls, Matthew 11:29. In the gospel of Matthew there is a wonderful sphere of activity opened up. I cannot touch upon it now, except to show how the Spirit of God supersedes the legal system, with which the testimony of God had been connected, by a system established in the liberty and dignity of sonship. On the mount of transfiguration in chapter 17 the Father announces the Son. Others had spoken -- Moses and Elias, but here was the Son! "This is my beloved Son ... hear ye him", Matthew 17:5. Peter would have made three tabernacles, but the true tabernacle was there, the Shekinah glory was overshadowing it, and every testimony of God was centred in that Person. The Father directs attention to Him. The tabernacle of God is in sonship; the testimony is there, and the Father's cloud is there; the cloud that was over the tabernacle in the wilderness was there, but here it was the Father's voice, not Jehovah's. The Son was there with all His affection for the Father, and every testimony indicated that the tabernacle was there. And then the voice says, "hear ye him", Matthew 17:5. Every communication is from His lips; there is no other speaker save the Son. The gospel and all the divine counsels are what are spoken; everything proceeds through the affections and through the lips of Him who is in the consciousness of sonship with God. And then -- wonderful grace! in the end of the chapter Peter is a son; he who would have made a tabernacle for Moses and Elias on the mount is placed on the platform of sonship with Christ. The Lord says, "Then are the sons free ... that take and give it to them for me and thee", Matthew 17:26,27. The sons are free. Jesus was the Son, and Peter and the disciples were sons; they were brought into sonship. In chapter 18 we find that which answers to the city. In chapter 17 its foundations were laid in principle in "the Son of the living God" (Matthew 16:16) and in chapter 18 we have the administration worked

out here upon earth by those who are sons. That is for the present moment. It is a wonderful thing to come into contact with such people. The early chapters of the Acts show a company of such sons here in this world, in the liberty and power of the Spirit. Never had there been such a spectacle as that; all divine administration went out through them, and it was to be continued. If we are to have it now, it must be according as we are formed in the liberty and dignity of sonship.

I must go on to Revelation 4 for a moment. You will notice in these elders what I have been saying; they are in entire sympathy with the throne and with Him who sat upon it. I think God delights in that! We know how the Lord delighted in the sympathy of His people when He was here. Indeed, we read that He looked for sympathy and found none, Psalm 69:20. He had to accomplish the great work of atonement alone, without sympathy, but He sought it, and where He found it He valued it, as in Mary in John 12. She had sympathy with Him; she thought of His death. The atmosphere was rife with the spirit of murder, but there was one there who thought of Christ, who had sympathy with Him; she anointed Him for His burial. Well, the elders are in complete sympathy with the throne. I do not go beyond that in chapter 4, save to show that they fill their position divinely. Their seats were prepared for them; there were twenty-four thrones, and they were occupied by twenty-four elders. One could dwell upon their sitting there in all the dignity acquired by their experience upon earth. They had crowns of gold; they were not only inwardly in sympathy with Him who sat upon the throne, but in every respect they were in accord with that scene. Their crowns I need not say are moral crowns; they are the effect of the work of God in them. A crown is what one's heart cherishes.

They were crowned with golden crowns, which sets forth what is of God.

I will just refer briefly to the other chapters which I read, to show what marks them. In chapter 4, as I have said, the elders are seen in their dignity, and in sympathy with the throne. Now in the next chapter they can tell you about Christ; they can explain the whole situation. "One of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book". They know about Christ, and you will notice that when He took the book their hearts were moved. One is affected in seeing the intense interest in Christ which marked them. They give ample reasons for their homage and their praise, and everything they do is in affection and intelligence. They can tell you about the Lord, and they can give a full account of what they do. All their movements are governed by affection and intelligence; just as Paul says, "I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also", 1 Corinthians 14:15. That is to say, they are completely governed in regard of themselves, and everything that they do is in the full light of the divine intelligence which they possessed. Then in chapter 7 we find one of the elders giving an account of the saints.

I might speak of the vials or bowls full of odours in chapter 5 and the harps. It is all intensely interesting, and indicates the characteristics of the elders. The living creatures are coupled with them; on the living creatures I do not dwell except to say that the golden bowls are filled with prayers. They are not only sympathetic with Christ, but they are sympathetic with His people, and have sympathy with the prayers of the saints upon earth; they have harps also, with which they sing.

Then in chapter 7 as I have said the elders can give an account of the saints. The inquiry is, Who

are these? Now an elder in the assembly ought to know about all the saints; that is his business, so to speak. He ought to know their histories and where they live, etc. A true elder can give an account of the saints, so here we find that this elder knew all about these saints. He raises the question as to who they were and "whence came they", and the prophet replies, "Sir, thou knowest". Then he proceeds to enlarge upon what they were. They had come through great tribulation, and they had washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. He goes on to say what God will do for them; they should have a place in His temple, "and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes". To my mind it is very beautiful, and how one longs to see that spirit among God's people, a care for the saints, to have their prayers in your heart, and to know all about them. The Lord Jesus Christ knows them; He is the great Elder, the great Bishop; He has them all written down in His book. As Paul said, "The Lord knoweth them that are his", 2 Timothy 2:19. He knows them all, and every elder takes his pattern from Christ; He knows who they are, and all about them, and their blessings.

In closing I would say, you may depend upon it that the truth cannot be maintained without experience according to God. Everything is set forth objectively in Christ, and it is worked out subjectively in us. The city -- eldership -- is the result of the work of God in the souls of God's people.

THE "WALLED CITY"

Leviticus 25:29; Acts 20:17 - 38; 1 Corinthians 4:11 - 17

As to the connection between these scriptures which I have read, my thought is to set forth a little in regard to the character of that into which the gentiles were introduced. They were introduced into a walled city. I refer to the passage in Leviticus 25, as setting forth in type the assembly as set up here, and the scriptures in Acts and Corinthians as setting forth the character of the ministry by which the city was formed internally. The apostle shows that his ministry and ways were in entire accord with those of Christ. Paul had been brought into acquaintance with Christ in heaven, and all his ministry has that in view. The city was established on earth in all the dignity of sonship as known in Christ in heaven. He brought the glad tidings amongst "the nations". Paul's ministry took the form of the announcement of the Son; he preached the Son of God. The "walled city" was already there; the city established by the ministry of the twelve apostles, which will appear in the future in glory. The city as established by them existed morally before Paul's testimony, and by him the gentiles were introduced into it; they were marked by the ministry of Paul. The ministry of the twelve went on also, they were apostles of Christ, and represented His authority; they maintained Christ's due. They loved Christ, and all their service was performed out of love for Christ. Their ministry brought to pass an order of things which was all of God, and a city was reared morally with a wall of protection excluding all that was evil.

The apostles were entrusted with the testimony, and they treasured it, and saw that it was protected.

They not only reared walls around it, but the gates were kept; there was vigilance in the exclusion of all evil, and everything contrary to Christ was refused. It was set up in the midst of Israel -- "a walled city". Israel lost her opportunity. She had, as it were, an opportunity to "redeem" her place within the city; in the type we see in Leviticus 25, that a full year is given to redeem it, and, failing that, it passed out of the owner's hands for ever. The gentile comes in for that possession; not in a "village or in an open field", but in the city. He may acquire land, and he has acquired it in the "open field", which I regard as earthly possession. Barnabas had lands there, and sold them, for he wished to have a residence in the walled city. He recognised the authority of the apostles, and he sold his land, and gave the money to the apostles for their disposal. He was in sympathy with the testimony, and he sold his land, preferring a place in the walled city. He knew he would have to give up his land sooner or later, and whoever bought it from him would also one day have to yield it up, and would get nothing back for it. The land goes out free in the year of Jubilee.

Today God is really owner of the land, but one sees how the nations claim the land and advance their flags to the utmost limits of their territory. They lay claim to proprietary rights; to the land which in reality belongs to God. I want a residence in a "walled city". Barnabas' land will return to God, its rightful owner, in the year of Jubilee. Barnabas did what every Israelite should have done. The walled city established in their midst was open to them, and gave them a great opportunity to embrace a wonderful place of privilege. The nation refused it, but those who accepted it "continued steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine" (Acts 2:42) in complete accord with the city, and the Lord "added" them.

The Israelites had the city in their midst, and abundant opportunity was given to them to redeem their place in it. Jerusalem was their city, but the door of the assembly was thrown open to them, but they spurned and rejected it, and the gentile has come into their possession.

In Leviticus 25:30 you see what we have come into; what we have been introduced into. You have taken your place in the order of things established here for God, and it is yours for ever. Earthly possessions will have to be surrendered, but if you have found a residence (in a sense you have to purchase it), a place in the walled city, that place is secured to you for ever. It shall not go out. Walls are essential to a city. In the heavenly city (Revelation 21) the measurements of the walls are given; the length and the breadth and the height of them, and the walls are garnished with precious stones. The walls are a most essential feature in a city, for the inhabitants are secure within the walls.

But now we want to know what is inside the walls, and to have some conception of the interior of the city. In Psalm 107:7 God speaks of guiding His people by "the right way, that they might go to a city of habitation". The walls are around the city, but here we get the inhabitants referred to. God directed and guided His people in the wilderness, that they might go to a city of habitation, and as God forms us in His light, we seek "a city which hath foundations", Hebrews 11:10. Abraham sought something stable and immutable, and as he learned and apprehended God he saw the unstable character of everything here. He looked for a city whose Builder and Maker is God. The light of God coming into our souls loads us to desire the city. Many believers have not found the city. We read in the blessing of Moses, "Hear, Lord, the voice of Judah, and bring him unto his people", Deuteronomy 33:7. That sets forth in

figure the character of the inhabitants of the city, and if we read these scriptures in Acts and Corinthians in regard to Paul's ministry we shall see that Paul gives, as it were, the inhabitants; that is, the inhabitants of that heavenly city are formed and developed by the ministry of Paul.

Paul had received light from Christ in heaven outside the territory of Israel. The centre had been removed from Jerusalem and from Israel; the centre of everything was now in heaven, where was the "light above the brightness of the sun", Acts 26:13. The result of light from heaven is to lead back to heaven. Nothing is more desired by my soul than that a little bit of heavenly light may be the impression given in one's ministry. The present situation is not understood unless you see that things proceed from heaven. Paul first apprehended and appreciated the Son of God; that Person touched and captured his heart, and thus his preaching was spontaneous. I know he was an apostle, and that he was sent to preach; nevertheless he preached out of affection for Christ, and he "preached Jesus that he is the Son of God", Acts 9:20. The testimony of Paul was "that I may announce him ... among the nations", Galatians 1:16. The result of that testimony is to set the gentiles in the dignity and affection of sonship. We are all sons of God. This gives you an idea of the inhabitants of that city; they are heavenly, formed by heavenly light, and they are sons. Sons have the liberty of the house. We shall never lose our place, not only on account of His purchase of us by His blood, but also because we are sons. The Lord as man was the Son of God. He could go up. He says, "I ascend", John 20:17. And the sons are accorded the liberty of the house; they are heavenly, and they are sons. Paul's ministry was pre-eminently the ministry of a son, it expressed Christ. Everything Christ did was done in the dignity and liberty of a Son, and marked by a

heavenly character, and so it was in a measure with Paul.

Ephesus sets forth the city in principle. In Acts 9 we get the start, and the finish in chapter 20. There was liberty, and it was used for the service of God. In Antioch there was spontaneous response; there was liberty there too. Barnabas had full sympathy with Paul, he rejoiced in the work of God at Antioch, and he brings Saul to where the work was; he went out in liberty. The Spirit of God says, "Separate me Barnabas and Saul", Acts 13:2. There was a spontaneous response, and the Spirit of God recognises it. That is the source through which the gospel came to us.

Look through the chapters that intervene, and you will find that the testimony moved forward until it was enshrined at Ephesus, and at the conclusion in chapter 20, the assembly was set up in the full light of what had been revealed in Paul's soul. We cannot enlarge on what he says, but it is indicated that he had moved about among the Ephesian saints according to the character of Christ. He brings out that "it is more blessed to give than to receive". It is on the line of gift, not of demand, and that was the line of the Son of God. Paul laboured and preached, and all that he did was in accord with Christ. The Ephesian saints were affected by his ministry, and the proof of it was, how profoundly affected they were that they should see his face no more. His ministry had produced affection. Why do they love him? Because there was a reproduction of Christ in him. The internal features of that "city" are found in Paul.

God's city is a wonderful place to have a residence in and to have company in. We shall all have a residence there. At present we are dwelling in tents, and but for a time, liable to be dissolved at any moment, but presently we shall dwell in a building

from God, a house not made with hands. Where? Eternal in the heavens. Every believer will have a permanent fixed abode in that city, eternal in the heavens, and a residence that he will never lose, for it is secured to him for ever. The inhabitants of that city will be instinct with life, each one exhibiting some trait of Christ, and expressing some feature of Christ. The wonderful line of thought began down here in a man to whom Christ had been revealed; a man who was in reproach, but who moved about in the dignity of Christ, and whose ministry was of Christ. We may have ten thousand instructors but only one father. The inhabitants of that heavenly city will in that sense have one father, for they are begotten, as it were, by the ministry of Paul. Paul was the father of the Corinthians, but they were very unlike their father. Paul could not go to them himself, so he sent Timothy, his dearly beloved son in the faith. Timothy reflected Paul. The Spirit of Christ produces in our midst the character of Christ as shown in Paul and Timothy. Some of the Corinthians were puffed up; they were not in accord with the spirit of that city. "Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus", Philippians 2:5. Our citizenship is in heaven. The lowly man on earth is the only suitable man for heaven. The lowest place here corresponds to the highest place there.

Suitable conduct is required, and Timothy is left in Corinth to set things in order. Paul is exercised that things should be after the order of Christ. A heavenly city, a walled city -- and occupied with heavenly inhabitants -- come down from God out of heaven, and in accord with Christ, and "having the glory of God", Revelation 21:10. This is the product of the ministry of Paul -- she "comes down out of heaven, from my God", Revelation 3:12.

Our residence is secured in that city -- and secured to us for ever.

CITIZENSHIP

Hebrews 12:22; Philippians 3:20

I desire, beloved friends, to say a word to you in regard to citizenship. Citizenship of necessity has its centre in a city, although it is not confined to a city. The idea of a city arose very early in the history of humanity. It did not arise from any divine conception, so far as we know. The first city that Scripture speaks of was that built by Cain, and it is a well-known fact that, while Cain built the city, he did not call it after his own name; he called it after the name of his son. I connect that in my mind with the position of the Jew as having murdered Christ, for Cain was the type of the Jew guilty of the murder of Christ, and Barabbas is properly the production of judaism. The name Barabbas, as you know, signifies the son of the father; that is, he bears the characteristics of his father. It was a dreadful thing that the people whom God had taken out of Egypt, before whom all His wonderful signs had been set forth, to whom the oracles of God had been committed, that they should be possessed of a murderous heart. When His beloved Son appeared in their midst Barabbas was the product, as we may say, of that system of things. Now Cain's city was called after the name of his son; that is, the son of the murderer, and that son was in type Barabbas, who, beloved friends, was the choice; man's choice in preference to Christ! Now in that you have one feature of the world-city: it bears the name of the son of the murderer, who was according to his father, because he was the son of the father. I speak of that because it conveys to us some idea of the character of the world city.

The next city that we find is that of Babel. I speak of these cities so that you may have some

conception of the world with which you have to deal. It is of great moment that believers should be alive to that which exists in antagonism to the testimony. The thought of Babel is negative. I do not want to be negative. I hope by the Lord's help to set forth what is positive, but I wish to bring before you that which marks the Babylonish world with which we have to do. What marked Babel was that it was the banding together of men. There seems to have been a leader: "A man said to his fellow". There was one who led humanity; the object was centralisation, and the purpose was, "Let us make ourselves a name"; "Let us build ourselves a city and a tower, the top of which may reach to the heavens", Genesis 11:4. We are not told after whose name it was called. God gave it a name; when He divided their tongues God showed its character, and it was called Babel, but that which prompted the building of the city was "Let us make ourselves a name"; "Let us build ourselves a city and a tower". There, I believe, you get the characteristics of the Babylonish system with which we have to do. It is marked, as I have said, by murder; that is, by murderous opposition to Christ; however fair its appearance, however wonderful its works, however much the ingenuity of man marks it, that which is behind it is murderous opposition to Christ. Men would band themselves together; you have it in the cities of this day; the endeavour is to band men together. We know that it is anti-christian.

Well now, in connection with Babylon you will observe a certain energy, and that energy finds its expression in Nimrod. We are told that the beginning of his kingdom was Babel, and that he was a mighty hunter before the Lord. In the present Babel system, the present feature of the world system, you will find the energy of Nimrod. There are many mighty hunters today. I need not enumerate

them; they may have varied pursuits, but they are all after the same thing. They are hunting with all their might, with all their energy; they are after something for their own exaltation; they are pursuing all that which adds to their dignity in this world. It is a spirit that is often found even among God's people. Nimrod was the full expression of it, he was a "mighty hunter before the Lord", Genesis 10:9. It was before the Lord; and that which goes on before the Lord will come under the righteous judgment of the Lord. So the mighty hunters of today; all the untiring energy that man puts into the pursuits of this life, the commercial life, and the other pursuits, you may depend upon it nothing escapes the eye of God.

It is the greatest comfort that everything comes under His eye. He is the sovereign Ruler, and everything that happens is under His eye. The saints may suffer from it, and they do suffer, for a "mighty hunter" will disregard the rights of God, he will trample the saints under foot, as we know has been done, but the souls of the martyrs are under the altar (Revelation 6:9 - 14), and they cry to the sovereign Ruler, "How long, O sovereign Ruler, holy and true". God's eye is over everything on earth, all is "before the Lord". Now that conveys to us some idea of the present state of things, and one feels how solemn it is as time goes on. While these terrible Babylonish characteristics are becoming stronger and more in evidence, what a solemn consideration it is for the saints of God as to how we are to shape our course in the present day in regard to it. I believe the Lord would speak to our hearts about it all. You cannot allow yourself to recognise that system in the least degree, for in the measure in which you recognise it you are unfaithful to Christ.

Now I want to show you, if I can, the means of

preservation for the saints. I wish to dwell upon the positive side, and that is, that God takes account of His people; and in His world there is going to be a counterpart to all that exists in man's world. You will find, that whatever there may be in this world built up by man's energy to captivate the saints, there is something to answer to it in God's world. Whilst citizenship necessarily centres in a city, yet it involves a country. I happen to live in a country where citizenship is a great feature. The citizen is supposed to have title to all the privileges of the nation. And now I want to show you that God opens to us an order of things which every privilege is opened up to the believer. The first thing that meets one on becoming a citizen of any country is the constitution. You cannot become a citizen of the United States unless you have some idea of the constitution.

I want to say a word on the constitution. The first element that presents itself to the believer, as I said, is the constitution. The constitution is the fundamental principle on which any nation rests. Every country has its constitution. I want to show you what is the constitution or order of things into which the believer is introduced. The constitution of GOD'S world is sovereign mercy; everything is on that basis. It is a wonderful thing that on the principle of faith you have come into an order of things, the first element of which is the principle of sovereign gift. There is no nation like that in this world. If you go to any nation under the sun and seek citizenship, you will not find anything on the principle of sovereign gift; but what God supplies us with is all on the principle of sovereign gift. It is the first thing that God impresses us with, and it has a wonderful effect on our souls. If the light of God's sovereign mercy enters into one's soul it has a marvellous effect upon us. But you must have it

in your soul. It is necessary that the constitution should be understood, that it may become, not simply objective, but part of our being, and give character to us. It is sovereign mercy, made known in Christ, entering your soul that gives character to you, and enables you to be a suitable citizen of God's order of things.

Now the next thing that is presented to you is the city; that is, you have a city; you are said to have come to a city, and that city is "the city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem". There are two things which mark that city. The first is, it is constituted in life, it is the city of the living God; and the second is that it is heavenly, "the heavenly Jerusalem".

I want to say a word in regard to the heavenly Jerusalem. My conception of it is that it is inwardly the outcome of the ministry of the apostle Paul. Historically it was built by the ministry of the twelve apostles; their names are in the foundations, Revelation 21:14. The foundations and the walls are historical. They were built under the eye of man; they were reared up by the testimony of the twelve. The walls of the city are detailed and may be traced in the early chapters of the Acts, but the inward part of that city is private; it is, as it were, formed in affections through the ministry of Paul. I take the formation of the inward part to date from chapter 9 of the Acts; it is introduced in connection with sonship. You can never understand the heavenly Jerusalem if you do not understand sonship. The city is formed inwardly in the light of sonship. It was established outwardly in life; it was the city of the living God, but it is also in the dignity and liberty of sonship. Sonship has not reference to protective walls; walls are protective, but sonship has reference to relationship; that is to say, sonship has to do with our affections; the inward affections

of the saints are formed in the light of sonship. As such it is the heavenly Jerusalem; it is pre-eminently heavenly, and it comes down -- that is it is in liberty, it is free. How is it free? It is free on account of sonship; it is formed in the light of sonship, and is free; it goes up to heaven, and it comes down from God out of heaven. Prophetically John saw it; he says, "I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven", Revelation 21:2. What a wonderful spectacle! A city established in life, and inwardly formed in affections, and it comes down from God out of heaven. It is a very wonderful thing to have a city like that, and I would enlist the sympathy of the youngest believer in it. That is what you are come to; you are come to the city of the living God, and moreover it is heavenly, and it is free as being heavenly.

The next thing is the "universal gathering". I will not enlarge upon that; the best illustration I can give you is the houses of Parliament. Parliament is the convening of the representatives of the nation. I allude to it for a moment to show that it is a large enough thought for any political mind. I use the word political advisedly. You may say you have not a political mind, but you will have it by God's grace as you advance in your christian experience in God's things; that is to say, you will be interested in the principles and the legislation of God's world.

The next thing you come to is "the assembly of the firstborn" (Hebrews 12:23); these are the privileged ones. You come into society beyond anything upon earth; you come to the privileged ones; they are "the assembly of the firstborn who are registered in heaven". In other words, you come into touch with the saints viewed in their heavenly character; they are a wonderful company, and you belong to them. The disciples did not appreciate what was in

God's mind for them when they were elated by the power by which they overcame the wicked spirits, Luke 10. The Lord says, "in this rejoice not ... but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven", Luke 10:20. The saints of this dispensation are viewed in that light. We have the firstborn's portion, we are come into the position of the firstborn ones; we are the true Levites of God. The Levites were taken in the place of the firstborn; they had no inheritance; they had cities. Cities in Scripture refer to buildings; that which is distinguished from the land -- the country. The Levites had cities, but no inheritance. We are the true levites of God, and our place is in heaven: "the assembly of the firstborn who are registered in heaven". That is wonderful society! Can the world offer you anything to equal it? God provides for you whatever your heart craves as formed by the Spirit. There are many desires, and God meets every desire every desire that the Spirit produces in your soul is met. God provides for all your desires in His own country.

Then you come to God Himself, the universal Judge. He is the "Judge of all" (Hebrews 12:23); there can be no question but that we shall get justice. As come to the Judge of all, you need not fear any charge brought against you; you need fear nothing; you have come to the Judge of all the earth, and He will do right. I have not any doubt that every cause of mine will be fully vindicated. You need not attempt to vindicate yourself; God will vindicate you. He is the Judge of all. It is a wonderful thing to have come to God in that light; it puts your heart at perfect rest in regard to the malignity of the enemy. God will take care of you. The Lord Jesus Christ knew that. He left everything with God. Paul left things with God. The Judge of all the earth will do right.

Now I will go on to the "spirits of just men made perfect" (Hebrews 12:23). What gives character to a man is his spirit; it is all a question of his spirit. What kind of a spirit has a just man? The Lord Jesus Christ was the just Man; He was the just One. What kind of spirit had Christ? His was a wonderful spirit, but, beloved friends, the Spirit of Christ is the spirit of all "just men". Is not that wonderful; a humanity after the pattern of Christ? That is the spirit of "just men made perfect". So we come into touch with a humanity which is after Christ -- the spirits of just men! a wonderful fellowship, a wonderful communion! It really refers to the humanity that God will have in His presence. If He is the Judge of all no humanity can remain in His presence except the just humanity, and we have come to the "spirits of just men made perfect". I look at it morally. I do not deny that it is the entirety of the divine system. It speaks of the principles of the divine system which is before us. It is a wonderful thing that in it there are men that are "just", and we have come to their spirits; and to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant.

Jesus is the great central attraction in the midst of that humanity -- the lowly Jesus, and it is "Jesus the mediator of the new covenant", Hebrews 12:24. In the midst of all that scene of glory it is the lowly Man you have come to; it is Jesus; not the Son of God, not the Christ. It is the Man, it is the One whom Luke presents to us. Where is the christian who has not read the gospel of Luke with delight? It is the Man, it is Jesus, beloved friends, in the midst of humanity, in relation to a just humanity.

And then we are told that we are come to the "blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel", Hebrews 12:24. The heart turns to Jesus with delight and pleasure; for amidst the vast scene of glory that God has before Him, the one central

point for the affections of the heart is Jesus, the same as He was on earth. There is no change in Him, and it is Jesus who has effected the new covenant. The apostle Paul presents Him to us as the One in whose face the glory shines. The love of God, expressed in the death of Christ, shines in His face. As the apostle says, "God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined into our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ", 2 Corinthians 4:6. In the face of that Man, that is the glorious shining. I do not think you will ever have a conception of the glory if you do not see the position of Jesus here upon earth as Man, the most approachable of all men. He is the Mediator of the new covenant. He took up the cause of man. He took up the covenant, and His glory is that He has made it effective; the glory shines in His face, and you have come to that Man! It is a wonderful scene in that world, in God's country, but the great central figure is Jesus, the Mediator of the new covenant.

We were dwelling this afternoon on the blood of Christ: it was the life, the blood was the life, that is, the blood of Christ represents the surrender of His life, and when I say that I am not simply speaking of His physical life. That was of course involved, but His life morally consisted in affection in connection with the bonds that had been formed here on earth in connection with Israel. The Lord laid down all that, He surrendered all that, and the blood of sprinkling speaks wonderful things; it speaks "better things than that of Abel"; it speaks of God's love. Abel's blood cried for vengeance, but the blood of Christ speaks of all God's love. That is what we have come to. I hope I have made it plain; I think it is very needful to the understanding of it that you take account of it as a country -- God's country, with all its blessings, so that you should

see that you are a citizen of it, and that as a citizen you have title to every part of it, every privilege of the country. And what wonderful privileges are opened up to us in this chapter!

I wish now to say a word about Paul's remark in the epistle to the Philippians. Paul as to his aspirations was set for God's calling, but as to his position in this world as a disciple of Christ, he was on the down line, he was possessed of the mind of Christ, and as a man in this world he was going down. Jesus went down. You will find in chapter 2 of Philippians that the mind of Christ found its expression in Paul, Timothy, and Epaphroditus; they were willing to surrender completely their own things for the good of God's people. The Lord Jesus Christ has gone down in regard to the saints and God's glory. Paul had His mind. Timothy had His mind. Epaphroditus had His mind. Timothy "naturally" cared for the saints (Philippians 2:20), and Epaphroditus was grieved because the saints heard he was sick; he was not thinking of himself or of his recovery, he was thinking of the saints; he had the "mind of Christ", 1 Corinthians 2:16. Paul surrendered all for the good of the saints, and counted everything loss for Christ, that he might have Christ for his gain. Christ was everything to him. That is the man who has Christ for his goal. And he had aspirations too; he pressed towards the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. That was what he had before him, and then he goes on in regard to others, that they might be like-minded, and he shows that our citizenship is in heaven. I close with that. I leave that with you.

May the Spirit of God draw our hearts heavenward. It is a wonderful escape from the present order of things. We await from heaven Jesus as Saviour. Our citizenship is there, and our expectation is that Jesus will appear from heaven as Saviour, "and

transform our body of humiliation into conformity to his body of glory", Philippians 3:21. That is the road that is opened up to christians, so that there is a perfect way of escape out of the darkness of the present Babylonish world which we have to do with.

I have referred to the thought elsewhere that in the Scriptures you will find that from the very earliest date God had indicated a special place. In Eden there was a garden; it was in Eden, and that indicated that there was a special place in God's mind for man. So in the ark there were one, two, and three storeys, indicating the same thing. In the tabernacle there was the holiest of all, the holy place and the court. In the temple there were three tiers of chambers. Now I believe that in all these things God indicated that He had reserved a special place, and I need not add, beloved friends, that that special place is for the assembly. The Lord says, "in my Father's house are many mansions" (John 14:2) and He adds to those who share His affections, "I go to prepare a place for you". For those who share His rejection He has prepared a special place.

May the Lord set our hearts on it now. The hour is not far distant when we shall hear what John heard -- the "voice ... as it were of a trumpet ... which said, Come up hither", Revelation 4:1.

THE RESULT FOR GOD OF THE TESTIMONY OF HIS SON

John 3:35; John 4:10,19 - 26; John 20:17 - 23

What I have on my mind to bring before you is the thought of what is for God on the earth as a result of the testimony of His Son. The gospel of John presents the Son not exactly in relation to anything that existed upon earth before, but in relation to God Himself. The gospel of Matthew also presents the Son, but there it is the Son in relation to that which had existed before on the earth. Israel had had the place of son with God. God had sent a message to Pharoah demanding that His son should be released. "Let my son go, that he may serve me", Exodus 4:23. So we see that Israel had the place of son with God upon earth, but Israel utterly failed to correspond with that wonderful position. Matthew introduces the Son, not exactly to establish the truth of His Person, but to show that in Him God could take up and maintain every thought of His in regard to Israel. Presented to Israel in this way, and rejected, He establishes a system upon the earth that should supersede Israel. That is what Matthew presents: a system set up in the liberty of sonship, and subsisting in life as founded upon the Son of the living God. That is to say, the assembly is established in life, and also in the liberty and dignity of sonship; and therefore it is a suitable vessel with which to connect the testimony of God.

Coming to Mark we again have the Son; "the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God" (Mark 1:1) but there it is the prophetic ministry. All ministry is now carried on in the liberty and dignity of sonship. There had been a prophetic ministry before; God had spoken to the people by the prophets, but

henceforth all ministry should be carried out in sonship. We have divine ministry maintained in the Son.

Luke, I need not say, presents Christ neither in relation to the testimony that had been committed to Israel, nor yet the prophetic ministry, but in regard to humanity; humanity is taken up in Christ. In John, as I have already said, we have the Person, and that, not as in Matthew in relation to anything that existed before, but in relation to God; and hence the results must of necessity be for God. The Spirit in the opening chapters of John presents us with the Person in that light. "No man hath seen God at any time" (John 1:18), it was something entirely new; there had been much revealed in the Old Testament, but no man had seen God. Moses desired to see Him, but no man had seen God. God had dwelt in thick darkness; no man had seen Him, but "the only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him", John 1:18. That is the point of view in which the Spirit of God introduces the Lord Jesus Christ in this gospel. It is a question of the revelation of God, and hence the results must be for God.

In chapter 1 He is marked off. John the baptist says: "I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him", :John 1:32. He who sent him to baptise with water had said to him: "Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending and abiding on him, he it is who baptises with the Holy Spirit" (John 1:33) and he adds, "I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God". The Son is marked off as the One upon whom the Spirit came to remain. God, as it were, had found a permanent resting place here upon earth. As of old the dove of Noah had failed to find a resting place for the sole of her foot, so, I take it, the Spirit of God, prior to the introduction of Christ, had failed to find a resting place.

He had been active in divine operations; the heavens had been garnished by Him; but there was no resting place. But the introduction of the Son upon earth involves a permanent resting place for the Spirit. That was a wonderful spectacle; that a Man should be marked off in this world in the eyes of others as One in whom God could rest. He was the Sabbath of God. Then He begins to move upon the earth; there never had been such a movement seen in a man before. He who saw the Spirit descending and remaining on Him saw Him walk, and we are told that looking upon Jesus as He walked, he said, "Behold the Lamb of God!", John 1:36. The Lamb of God is one who is most precious in God's eyes. He walked in that light here upon earth, and thus He became the attractive centre for the saints. In what I have said, you can see the wonderful position occupied here in manhood by the Son, and it is in that Person that the gospel as presented by John comes to man.

In the beginning of chapter 3 He is approached by Nicodemus. All the instruction, and the wonderful light that comes out in that chapter, is the result of His being approached by a man who had a measure of light. A "master in Israel", Nicodemus came to Jesus by night in the recognition that He was a "teacher come from God", John 3:2. I can only touch in the briefest way on a point or two in the chapter. In the early part of it what strikes one is the authority of this Person. In the end of chapter 2 we read that He knew all things; He knew what was in man; He knew what was beneath the surface, and needed not that any should tell Him. There were those who believed on Him because of His miracles, but He did not commit Himself to them; their faith was worthless. The Lord did not judge by outward appearance, but by what was below. He knew what was in man, and did not commit Himself to

him, but He opened up the truth to Nicodemus. You will observe it is a question of what Jesus says: "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, ... it is needful that ye should be born anew", John 3:5,7. There is One here now with divine intelligence, and who can speak with authority. The Old Testament had intimated what the Lord said to Nicodemus, but the Lord did not appeal to it in that way, it was a question of His Word. He knew what was in man and what man required; it was no question of the authority of the Old Testament, but of the Speaker. "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, ... it is needful that ye should be born anew", John 3:5,7. That is what we see at the introduction of the testimony to men by the Son; He had perfect knowledge of what was in man, and a perfect knowledge of what man required. Then there is the unfolding of God's love. I do not dwell upon the necessity of the cross: I can only touch upon it here, but the manner in which it is presented is in accord with what I have been saying. The Lord says, "as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up", John 3:14. It is not a mere evangelist speaking, but a divine Person, in divine intelligence making known what was necessary, and that was the lifting up of the Son of man. Then He declares His divine authority. He says, "We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven", John 3:11 - 13.

Then He goes on to God's love. How was God's expressed? I suppose every christian would answer, 'By the gift of His Son'; but in making that answer I think we forget to ponder who the Son was. The point here is what the Lord

Jesus was here upon earth under God's eye; that Person upon whom the Spirit could descend and remain, upon whom the heavens had been opened, and to whom the voice of God had declared: "This is my beloved Son", Matthew 3:17. It is a question of the intrinsic value of that Person here upon earth under God's eye. And He has to be given up! "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life", John 3:16. The Lord would call attention to what He had been to the Father, what He had been to God. I am not overlooking what He had been with God eternally, but what is presented in testimony is what had come out here upon earth. God had declared His delight in that Person, and had made known to man what He thought of Him. He had given a public declaration that He had reached in Man here upon earth, all that His heart had been set upon; and He surrenders that Person, the Object of His eternal love, in death. He surrenders Him in order that man should have life eternal.

But I must pass on. There was responsibility flowing from this: the Lord says, "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God", John 3:18. That Person had acquired renown upon earth; it was the renown of the only begotten Son of God. I want you to consider, beloved friends, what it was to have such a Person upon earth. What a walk was His! What works! What ways! What words were those words of Jesus! He acquired renown thus; and the man that spurned it, the man that did not believe on His name, was condemned; it was moral condemnation. Think of what the gospels present in that Person, and as you gather that up you have some conception of the

name of the only-begotten Son of God. There can be nothing but condemnation for him who refuses to believe on that name. Condemnation was the portion of the Jew, for the One who moved about in their midst on behalf of God, as the only-begotten Son of God, they refused to believe.

Whilst the mass of the nation saw no beauty in Him and refused Him, there was that in Israel divinely wrought, of which I take the liberty of regarding John the baptist as the representative. He was the greatest of those born of women, but, beloved friends, he retires in the presence of this Person. Where does he retire to? Instead of having a position on earth as the greatest of those born of women, the Acts show that that which he represents, even the remnant of Israel, came into the heavenly portion. One can see the spirit of it in Stephen, who in his address in Acts 7, in divine intelligence gathers up all the ways of God with Israel, and presents them so as to convict the nation. His face shines as he looks up to heaven and sees the heavenly Man; he sees Jesus and the glory of God. It was well worth while to retire in the presence of that Person, for Stephen found a place with Jesus; he is taken care of by Him. It is a most touching thought to me that his spirit was taken care of by Jesus. He says, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit" (Acts 7:59); and his body was taken care of by the saints on earth; devout men carried Stephen to his burial. It was the transition point between that which was the testimony of God on earth in connection with an earthly centre, and the testimony of God in connection with a heavenly centre. John recognised the importance of the latter. He said, "He that cometh from above is above all", John 3:31. "He must increase, but I must decrease", John 3:30.

John had his opportunity to express his estimate of Christ and he embraced it nobly; he recognised

the heavenly, and he said, "He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom ... rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice" (John 3:29); his joy is fulfilled; that is to say, John had heard the voice of Christ in His affection for Israel. The voice of a bridegroom is the voice of one actuated by affection; he is no bridegroom if he has not affection. The Lord Jesus Christ was the Bridegroom. He was in the midst of Israel actuated by divine affection for the nation, and there never had been such a voice heard in Israel as that of the Bridegroom; it was the most melodious of all voices. There is a peculiar touch in the thought of the Bridegroom; a man is always at his best in that position. You will remember how the Lord Jesus is typified by the sun; there is a tabernacle made for Him in heaven and He comes out as a Bridegroom, and rejoices as a strong man to run a race, Psalm 19. His influence is universal. It is the influence of a bridegroom. That is Christ. The voice of the Bridegroom is the voice that John recognises here; his joy, therefore, is complete.

Now the Person who has this honour is presented at the close of the chapter in the position of administration: "The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand", John 3:35. Here it is not the anointing, nor is it a question of the exaltation of Christ, although doubtless the latter is included. The point is, "The Father loveth the Son". Is it not wonderful, beloved friends, to think of all things in the hands of such an One! The One who is the ineffable joy and delight of the Father's affections. The Father loveth the Son, and He has committed all things into His hands. That marks the present moment.

Then in chapter 4 the Lord in effect says to the woman, Did you but know the situation -- the gift of God, you would have had confidence, and you

would have asked of Him. What would He have given? The very best gift possible, a gift commensurate with His position as seen in chapter 3. He was in the affections of the Father, and the Father had given all things into His hand. He says, "thou wouldest have asked of him"; it is not a question of what you would ask for, but that you would ask; "and he would have given thee living water". I only touch on that to show that the gift to us is commensurate with the gift for us. It is not a question of official administration; it is the administration of love; and if love acts, it acts from itself and gives its best; so He gives living water. The chapter shows that the result of that would be something for God, and that is worship. God acts in love, as I said, from Himself, but it is for Himself, so the gift reverts to Him.

I understand the living water to be the Spirit as taking up the affections of the believer, affections which had hitherto drunk deeply from a world of corruption. The Spirit takes up those affections and centres them all in a divine Person. The woman raises the question of worship. She says, "Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship"; but the Lord says, "Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews". In saying that, He maintained what was due to God in regard to what had been at Jerusalem; Mount Gerizim was not on the same level. The Samaritan worship had no place; it was an ignorant worship. He shows what is true worship. God had established a centre at Jerusalem and Christ maintains it; but He says, "the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers"; those in whom every affection is gathered up by the Holy Spirit and directed into divine channels, directed by the Spirit to the Father; these "worship

the Father in spirit and truth: for also the Father seeks such as his worshippers".

I pass on to chapter 20 to show briefly what is for God as seen there. I have been endeavouring to show what the result of the gift of the Spirit is; that God gets His portion from our affections; but then God seeks more than that. He seeks to have a generation here on earth like that Son who delighted Him when He was alone upon earth. In a word, I desire to show you the full church position, and also to show you what the church is essentially as that which is for God. I take the few verses in chapter 20 to show the full result of the Lord's death and position as set forth in this gospel. He had been down into Jordan; for that is the aspect of His death at the end of John; the brazen serpent comes in at the beginning of the book. Jordan overflowed all its banks. Satan had marshalled all his power against that Person, but the Ark of the Covenant went into Jordan and its waters disappeared. He meets Mary on resurrection ground. He is a risen Man, but she must not touch Him on that ground; everything should proceed from heaven, and the Lord says, "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father". He sends her with a message to His brethren as the ascended Man, and the most wonderful light that was possible to enter into the heart of man is contained in it. He says, "I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God". It is the Son in all the dignity of His Person as having come up out of Jordan. He has perfect liberty to ascend; it is a question of His Person, and the Son of necessity has full liberty in all the house.

You will find in Scripture that that which is most elevated is regarded as the place of the greatest

privilege, and the Lord, being the Son, has perfect title to go to the highest point. In John it is not that He is received up, He ascends; He goes up to the Father in the dignity of His own Person as the Son: and as going there He sends a message to His brethren. The message, beloved friends, involves their association with Him in that dignity. It is not simply that they are associated with the risen Man, they are associated with the ascending Man; in other words, they are the companions of Christ viewed as the heavenly One. I dwell upon that because it indicates the position of the assembly. The assembly is a heavenly institution upon earth, and it is composed of those who are the companions of the ascending Man. They are not ascending; the time for that will come, but they are the companions of that Man as ascending. And more, that ascending Man comes into their midst and breathes into them the Spirit; it is the Spirit of an ascending Man that we have, the Spirit of Christ in heaven, and we are set up here upon earth in that dignity and Spirit. We must not dissociate the position from the Spirit who maintains the position. The position is that of the ascending Man, for He ascends to His Father and our Father, His God and our God; but the Spirit of that Person is breathed into the disciples so that they should be maintained here in the full height of the position. They are the brethren of that Person and set here upon earth in His Spirit so as to maintain for Him during His absence. That is what I understand to be for God here upon earth; not simply a risen company, but a company in association with the heavenly Man, possessed with His Spirit, and set up here in testimony. Think of the testimony that would flow out of such a company! I repeat, not merely a risen company, but a heavenly company. What a testimony! It is a testimony in accord with His. He

says; "as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you". Beloved brethren, have we any conception of the affection with which the disciples were sent out? They were sent out from the circle where the atmosphere of heaven was breathed; it is not apostolic, it is a question of what they were as in that circle; they were sent out from that sphere of affection.

You may say there is not much of that here now, but I verily believe there is something of it, and the Spirit of God would promote it in us. We can never have the practice and the service becoming to those who form the assembly unless we maintain ourselves in the full light of our position. If I may speak for myself, I never surrender the full light of the position in which by God's grace I have been placed, and I believe that the Holy Spirit would promote that in us. Oh, that we might have a clear conception of the dignity of those who are to be for God upon the earth! God would have you maintain that in the faith of your soul. If it is maintained in your soul, and you come short of it, you are humbled and exercised. Light is intended to exercise, and exercise brings in soul progress, so that we are led on subjectively to correspond with the position in which God has placed us in association with His Son. I do not say it is a question of sonship, because the sons are to God. He has predestinated us to sonship by Jesus Christ to Himself, but brethren are in relation to Christ. We are Christ's brethren; that is to say, God has extended the circle. That which was so precious under His eye in the Person of Christ has been extended to the circle of the brethren of Christ, so that we come under God's eye in that light; but how essential that we should recognise the Spirit, so as to be in accord with it! We should be practically marked off in this world as those who are in relation to the Man upon whom

God opened the heavens, and whom He declared to be His beloved Son.

I trust that these few thoughts may be intelligible to you. It is a question of what is of God and for God, and what is of God must correspond with what came out in Christ personally when here upon earth.

CHRISTIAN UNITY

Genesis 11:1 - 9; Acts 2:41 - 47; Acts 4:23 - 37

I wish to say a word in regard to christian unity. It is a subject of all importance, for it is bound up with, and is properly the outcome of, the gospel. The gospel involves the revelation of God, and when God is revealed we come to see that unity is in the Godhead; that is what has come to light in the Son become Man. Thus the Persons in the Godhead come into view, and we see the wonderful spectacle of divine unity; so that in the proclamation of the glad tidings the unity of the Godhead is brought into evidence. God is One, and all unity upon earth flows from that. God will not tolerate any other unity upon earth than that which is the result of His testimony.

Now, beloved friends, I desire as briefly as I can to convey to you some idea of the character of christian unity. You will have observed in the chapter which I read in Genesis that the descendants of Noah had unity before them; they would band themselves together in defiance of God, their object being their own exaltation; that was the end in view in the structure which they proposed to build; a structure which has many counterparts today. The object in view was to build a city and a tower to reach to heaven, so that man should have a name. You have there the germ of all human workings; you have indicated the object in view in all human activity away from God from that day until this.

Man as isolated feels himself of little importance; he feels himself a very little speck on the earth, and hence he would promote unity with his fellows; a unity by which his fame should be increased, by which his reputation should be augmented. And you have, as I said, in that the germ that has given

birth to every earthly empire and combination of men from that day to the present; the end in view is that man should have a name. That is what lies at the bottom of all centralisation; the fame of man after the flesh. There is no thought of benevolence in it: every empire that over existed is a "beast" according to Scripture; and not even a tamed beast, but a wild beast. Now a beast has no conscience, no heart. The empires of men are marked by selfishness, and the same principle applies to every corporation, every banding together of men, whether trades unions or business corporations; all have in view the establishment of a name and greatness for man.

Now God will not tolerate that; and it is a sign of the last days that the present moment is one of centralisation, brought about by men to establish their own greatness on the earth; and every bit of ground they gain is taken from God and from Christ. I only mention this as, a warning; men are returning rapidly to that which God overthrew in the plains of Shinar; and the whole will culminate in anti-christ, "who opposes and exalts himself on high against all called God", 2 Thessalonians 2:4. They are working in this land and other lands, and every day brings its own development of the denial of Christ's claim.

Now I wish to show you what God brings to pass. God has brought to pass a unity of His own, and nothing in a way more evinces His blessed nature than that in the formation of His unity on earth He should have in view the blessing of all these families who were banded together against Him at Babel. The first mention of the gospel had reference to these families. I dwell on this so that you may have the character of God before you. God took Abraham out of the midst of this Babylonish world, which had departed from God, and the gospel of

which He spoke to Abraham had in view that all the nations of the earth should be blessed. God looked out on the families in revolt against Him, and He had thoughts of blessing for them. Abraham saw Christ risen to be the vessel of blessing; that in him all the nations of the earth should be blessed. God said, as it were, 'You are trying to bring about a unity: let Me bring unity to pass'. And this is the advice one would like to give to all men. No true follower of Christ could have part or lot in any unity apart from God's unity; that unity which God brings to pass; and if any one of you is in connection with any such unity, I would counsel you to abandon it. God has formed a unity.

The Lord Jesus Christ became Man; He has answered God by His death in regard to the lawlessness of Babel, and He has gone up into heaven. But before He went up to heaven He formed a company of men here upon earth; they had been attracted to Him, and as He was received up into heaven they gazed on Him; their affections were completely won. As here upon earth, they are marked by subjection to the only authority that remained upon earth, now that Christ was in heaven; that authority was the Scriptures. They had abandoned lawlessness; the Righteous One had brought them into righteousness, and hence into unity. They were subject to divine authority, and therefore they were suitable for God's unity. They were subject to the Scriptures, and were together "with one accord", and the Holy Spirit came down from Christ in heaven on that company, and He formed unity here upon earth. It involves blessing to all the revolted families. That is the magnificence of God's grace, that He formed His own unity here in the presence of men, and the Holy Spirit came in such a character that tidings should reach the revolted families, so that all the different families

represented there should hear. They heard spoken in their own language "the wonderful works of God", Acts 2:11. God's name, God's reputation, is what marks that unity. The wonderful works of God were spoken of. The wonderful works of man's genius to which he points with pride were not before them; within that circle we hear of the wonderful works of God; these are worth hearing about. And they are proclaimed in the tongues of the revolted families, that all might hear of the wonderful works of God.

Well now, I want to show from Acts 2 that unity, practical unity, flows from the fact of souls coming under the influence of the gospel. We are told that "they that gladly received his word were baptised". Peter's word came to them from that circle. I need not enlarge on his sermon. The point of it was that God had made Jesus both Lord and Christ; that Man was in glory, and the result of the presentation of that glorified Man was that three thousand were subjected to Him. I do not dwell upon it, I only want to show the result: "they that gladly received his word were baptised"; they severed their connection with the lawless world. They came into what God had established, as separate from the lawless world, and above all from the world of judaism, which was Babylonish, which receives the glory from man and not the glory that comes from God only. It was a lawless world, and "they that gladly received his word were baptised". It is a peculiar touch, to my mind, this forty-first verse; they severed their connection with the lawless world.

Well now, many things are said of them, but I would only touch on one or two things which marked them. You will see at a glance that what marked them was a happy and holy unity. I wish to show that the effect of the gospel rightly received severs from the world and results in a divine unity

here upon earth. It is not viewed in chapter 2 exactly in connection with the testimony as it is in chapter 4, but it is simply the blessed and happy effects of the divine nature. This is what chapter 2 presents; the results of the gospel received in their souls. In verse 44 we read: "all that believed were together, and had all things common; and sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need". Now, I regard that passage as presenting the result of the gospel; a company brought together, happily engaged in the things of God. They valued the things of God and enjoyed them, and there was evidence of affection and care for one another. Each man thought of his neighbour; there was among them the activity of the divine nature. I want to distinguish between this and the unity in chapter 4, and then I shall close.

Chapters 3 and 4 show us the character of the apostles' testimony; that is, that they were not engaged with their own reputations, but with Christ's name. What marked the christian unity was that His name was to be great instead of our name. Wherever you find a man, be he christian or not, who has his own name before him, he is Babylonish; he is virtually a Babel-builder. But what marks the apostles is Christ's name -- "In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk", Acts 3:6. Peter said he had neither gold nor silver, and he had no reputation, but Jesus of Nazareth had a name of renown. Peter boldly states in chapter 4 that there is none other "name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved", Acts 4:12. That is what marked Peter and John in their testimony. Now, Satan was against that name. The injunction of the religious leaders in chapter 4 was not simply that they should not hold certain doctrines, but that they should not teach or preach in that name.

But the divine intention is to maintain that name.

Now I want to show you that the end of chapter 4 presents to us a unity in support of that testimony; not exactly a unity seen as formed by the gospel, as in chapter 2, but a unity in support of the testimony. I feel that is what should exercise our hearts. "Being let go, they went to their own company". Alas! many in our day have no company, but in the early days the preachers and teachers had a company, and they went to it and found sympathy. When things are according to God the preachers and the company are in unity; hence we find they went to their "own company". And what was in that circle? Their prayers indicated that they were exercised about all the counsels of God. They quote Psalm 2. You can always tell where people are by their prayers. The whole world was banded against God and Christ; and this company was for God and for Christ. I wish just to read their prayer: "And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is: who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things? The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, for to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done. And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word, by stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus".

Is not that a wonderful prayer? I need not enlarge on the chapter. That company was in entire sympathy with God's testimony. And then God answered. God is for that company in power, and we read, "And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together". That was the company which God supported; the company that were thinking of His testimony; of the "name of thy holy servant Jesus". All the power of man's empire levelled against that company could not touch it. The place was shaken where they were assembled. The shaking was not like the shock of an earthquake; that would inspire terror; but it was indicative of the power of God that was for them; it was from God's hand, and inspired confidence in the company assembled; and "they spake the word of God with boldness". Another mark of the company you will notice was that they sold their possessions, not only that distribution might be made, but they "brought the money, and laid it at the apostles' feet". They recognised the apostles who represented the authority of Christ. The surrender of property in chapter 4 has reference to the testimony, the donors indicated their sympathy with the testimony.

Well now, I have done. I hope I have made clear to you the marks of christian unity. It really flows from the Godhead. But the unity which God proposes is unity in variety. In the future the whole universe, with all its different families, will be united. All the courts of the tabernacle were joined together by golden taches so that it should be one tabernacle. This speaks of the whole universe being bound together in divine love. There will be all the different families, but all will be bound together in a unity of variety. All will be pervaded by the spirit of sonship.

SYMPATHY IN THE TESTIMONY AND AUTHOIRITY OF THE WORD OF GOD

Luke 8:1 - 21

My thought is to say a word in regard to sympathy with Christ in the testimony, and in connection with that to seek to show the importance of the word of God. What you can see here is that the Lord stands forth in connection with the testimony, not only as individually connected with it, but as associating others with Himself; and you will observe that whilst it states that the twelve were with Him, there were also others, and these were women. You will find in the Scriptures that what represents divine authority, as the apostles, is associated with what is subjective; and the feature in which the subjective side appears here I take to be that of sympathy.

Now I think you will find in the perusal of the Acts that these two lines are found together. Most of us here are aware that Luke wrote to confirm Paul. It is indeed essential to a right understanding of Luke to bear that in mind, and you will find in the Acts that which corresponds with this section of his gospel; namely, the position and ministry and authority of the apostles, which I take the liberty of designating as official, it being the result of divine appointment.

The apostles were divinely appointed, but they were tried men. The Lord took them up in perfect discrimination; they were men whom He knew, and who had been tested, so that He appointed them as qualified. What corresponds with the official position of the apostles is the Spirit which indwelt them. That is to say, although divinely appointed, they were not to exercise their apostleship apart

from the Spirit. They were to remain in Jerusalem until they should be endued with power from on high; and I think you will find by a consideration of Acts 1 that they were in every way equal to their mission. Their hearts were attracted to Jesus; that wonderful Person had been brought to their attention and had completely won their hearts, so that when He is taken up from them they are found gazing up into heaven. In other words, the apostolic ministry was marked by affection for Christ.

Then you will find that whilst awaiting His promise, the gift of the Spirit, they recognised the authority of the Scriptures in the choice of an apostle to fill Judas's place; the Scriptures being the only authority left upon earth, seeing that Jesus had gone into heaven. To these men the Holy Spirit came, and as endued with power from on high, they carried on their ministry. The Holy Spirit coming down from heaven, we are told, sat upon each of them; there were others there as we know, but I speak for the moment of the apostles. The Holy Spirit came into the company, and His sound filled the house where they were sitting, and He sat upon each of them. Peter in the power of that Spirit stood up and testified for Christ. Now that is the apostolic position; it was characterised by affection for Christ, by submission to the authority of the Scriptures, and energised by the Holy Spirit come down from heaven. That continued through the Acts, I might say, up to chapter 15. They were in complete identification with Christ, representing His authority here upon earth.

What I wish to show is that side by side with that there appeared a spontaneous element, which is represented in Barnabas. I am not overlooking the fact that Barnabas was called an apostle; he was an apostle in virtue rather of what he was morally than by official appointment; that is, he was

sympathetic with what was going on. Barnabas first appears in Acts 4. We are told that he had lands and he sold them. Now we might have thought he sold them because he cared no longer for them; that, in the light of what was heavenly, brought in by the Spirit, he who had title to the earthly possessions surrendered them; but that is not the way in which the Spirit of God presents the matter to us. Barnabas had a true estimate of his property, I have no doubt, and did not undervalue it; we are told by the Spirit that he sold his lands. Why did he do that? Clearly because he saw that he could use the price for the furtherance of the testimony. He was taken up with the testimony, and he brought the money and laid it at the apostles' feet. That is to say, he recognised the authority of the Lord in His apostles. They were there with power to administer, and he brought to them what he had; he had land, he sold it, and devoted the money to the service of the testimony. It was not exactly Levitical service, although he was a Levite; his gift was not spiritual for the moment.

You will recall how in Israel the Levites were divided into two classes: there were those who carried the holy things upon their shoulders, and there were those who had waggons. I take Barnabas' gift in a sense to be a waggon; he recognised the necessities connected with the testimony, and he brought what he had got for his lands and laid it at the apostles' feet. What came to light in connection with his action indicates the Lord's appreciation of what he did. He was sympathetic with the testimony, and the apostles named him, his name had been Joseph, but they called him Barnabas -- "Son of consolation", Acts 4:36. Now that is what I understand to be an evidence of his sympathy with the testimony.

As we proceed in the Acts you will find that the testimony moves on, and it is when the movement

takes place that Barnabas shines. He shone in connection with that which was official at Jerusalem, but the testimony moved on; and when we are genuinely moved in regard of Christ we shall follow the course of the testimony. The testimony moved out to Antioch. An independent action of the Spirit took place there. There were no apostolic labours bestowed upon Antioch, as far as we know, prior to the movement there, but chapters 11 and 13 show us that Levitical service, and, indeed, priestly service, had moved out among the gentiles. That was a great triumph for Christ. There were found at Antioch certain men who ministered to the Lord and fasted; that is, they were in the liberty of service outside of Jewish territory.

Now Barnabas, who was a "good man and full of the Holy Spirit", Acts 11:24, recognised this work; he recognised the movement of the testimony and he was in complete sympathy with it. What did he do? He went down to Tarsus to seek out Saul. He was instinctively in the mind of God, and recognised what God had done, and how the testimony had moved. He sees that Saul is the man for the occasion; he goes to Tarsus to seek him out, and he takes him, not to Jerusalem, but to Antioch. Thus the testimony moved on, and correlatively the authority of Christ in the apostles, until we come to chapter 15. That is to say, the service of God was set up among the gentiles, and you will find in tracing these chapters that the Spirit of God pursues it until it is enshrined at Ephesus.

I make another remark in regard to Ephesus: the economy of the house of God is in connection with Ephesus. Timothy was at Ephesus when Paul wrote his first epistle to him, and it is this epistle above all others which should govern us in relation to the house of God. The house of God, beloved friends, is a heavenly institution. The

assembly at Ephesus was set up in the light of its heavenly position, and hence you have the true basis for the development of the house of God. The house of God is in the good of what is in heaven; the first mention of it in Scripture shows it was the connection between heaven and earth: Genesis 28:17 - 19. We need to maintain the light of that in our souls; it is the sphere in which the affections of God flow; a heavenly institution upon earth, so that it was a question of Timothy's conduct there. We have to be regulated by heaven in regard to our conduct. So Timothy was to know how to conduct himself in the house of God, which was at the same time the assembly of the living God; it was also the place of strength -- "the pillar and base of the truth", 1 Timothy 3:15.

In this eighth chapter of Luke's gospel we have what in a measure corresponds with all that I have been saying; that is, we have the apostles; they are with the Lord; and then there are those also who represent the subjective state; the sympathy that would sustain the testimony. These had been benefited by Christ, and the names of some of them are given to us. It is said of them that they ministered to Him of their substance; they were in complete sympathy with His position in connection with the testimony.

I just refer for a moment to what follows in this chapter, and that is, the authority of the word. One might speak of it in another way, in connection with sowing, but I refer now to its authority. The fruit of the word is spoken of as a hundredfold; those who "in an honest and good heart, having heard the word keep it". There is a peculiar touch here, which is confined to Luke's gospel. It is only in Luke that the hundredfold is spoken of. In the gospel of Matthew the result of the seed sown in the good ground is said to be an hundred, sixty, and

thirty. Matthew contemplates things set up in perfection and a perfect result -- an "hundredfold", but there is decline from a hundred to sixty, and from sixty to thirty; whereas in the gospel of Mark it is presented in the reverse order; that is, there is fruit, thirty, sixty, and an hundredfold. Mark presents increase of energy. Mark had at first failed as a servant (see Acts 15:38), but having been restored he was stronger at the end than he was at the beginning. Now Luke gives the full and perfect result of the testimony of God in the soul of man; it is not a question of our responsibility in that respect, or of the history of the church. What he is presenting is the ministry of grace; the effect of the Lord's ministry. In other words, he is presenting the full testimony by Paul; the word of God. When Paul went out from Antioch, it was to preach "the word of God", and Luke shows us that the word of God produces a perfect result.

I now want to dwell a little on the "light" in regard to the word. "No man, when he hath lighted a candle, covereth it with a vessel, or putteth it under a bed; but setteth it on a candlestick, that they which enter in may see the light". Now there cannot be light unless we are governed by the word. The Lord says, "Take heed therefore how ye hear". The man that brings forth fruit is the man who with an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keeps it. I need not say that no son of Adam has that; God alone can produce an honest and good heart. The Lord says, "having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience". I wish to emphasise the importance of the recognition of the word, for we cannot have the light unless we are regulated by the word. The word of God entering into an honest and good heart is kept with patience, and bears fruit an hundredfold;

and the result of that is that there must be light. Light is morally the character of God coming out in the christian.

I now pass on to where the Lord's relations are referred to. It is good to have the light in our souls of our relation with the Lord as the result of His death and resurrection. One cherishes the thought that we are the "brethren" of Christ, not only of Christ as risen from the dead, but we are the brethren of the One who could say, "I ascend" (John 20:17), which in a certain sense is the most wonderful light that can possibly enter into the soul of a man. He who says, "I ascend unto my Father, and your Father", also says, "My brethren". It is a divine Person speaking in the liberty of sonship. The Son has the full liberty of the house, and He can say, "I ascend"; and at the same time He associates us with Him as His brethren. I repeat, that no greater light can enter into the soul of man. But here in Luke 8:21, we have the other side. The Lord says, "My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it". I am not introducing John 20 into this passage; I referred to John 20 as showing the full light of our place. One can see in the Acts that the Lord in the course of the testimony indicates, that the earthly relations were abandoned, and that the new circle took form at Antioch and Ephesus, where divine relationships were established, which were connected, not with an earthly system, as Jerusalem was, but with heaven. The enemy saw it, and he essayed, by introducing legality, to capture the glad tidings of that wonderful liberty of sonship in the presence of God which was enjoyed at Antioch; but the saints were mercifully preserved, so that we see the full light of it in Ephesus.

But how are we to be marked off in this world as related to Christ? The Lord's word is, "My mother and my brethren are these which hear the

word of God, and do it". We have to maintain clearly and distinctly in our souls our position as the result of the death and resurrection of Christ, and the Holy Spirit is given to us to that end. But what is to be the rule for us here upon earth? The authority of the word; the word of God is to be the rule for us, and it is to be acted upon; the Lord says, "these which hear the word of God, and do it". The Lord recognises those who hear and do it. You may ask me, How does He recognise them? He comes to us; He distinguishes us, He manifests Himself to us. The Lord says, "If any one love me, he will keep my word"; and "I will love him and will manifest myself to him ... my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our abode with him", John 14:21,23. We are marked off in that way as submitting ourselves to the word of God.

May the Lord bless these simple thoughts to us. It seems to me to be a great thing at the present time to be in sympathy with the testimony. Things are much reduced, but the Lord is moving on, and He takes account of the twos and threes of His people here and there who recognise the authority and rule of His word and are in sympathy with His testimony. It is not a question of numbers, though Scripture makes a great deal of the vast number of the redeemed, but evidently the great point for us as upon earth is the authority of God and His word. If there are but a few christians in a city who are governed by the word, you may depend upon it that the Lord will distinguish them by manifesting Himself to them, and they will be in sympathy with His testimony.

THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST IN THE BOOK OF ESTHER

Esther 2:5 - 18; Esther 10:3

There are three books in the Old Testament that bear a certain relation to each other, in each of which there is established a marital relation, and where we find that as a result of exercise and of God's dealings, it is evident that affection has to be brought into play. God acts upon us in two ways: upon our minds and upon our affections; and in the three books in question the latter is what the Spirit of God draws our attention to. I refer to the books of Ruth, Esther, and the Song of Songs.

I propose to take up the book of Esther, and especially to make clear the manner in which the Spirit of Christ is set forth in that book. There could be nothing so interesting as tracing the Spirit of Christ in the Scriptures; the Spirit of God delights to enlarge upon it. You will find it presented in a variety of ways, for in truth no other spirit shall obtain in God's world. It began with Abel. We are told that he was a keeper of sheep; that was the Spirit of Christ, for Christ is the great Shepherd; He keeps His sheep. When I speak of the Spirit of Christ you can easily perceive it is not a question of the Holy Spirit as we know Him at present; it is the Spirit of God expressed in a man. Now that involves a great deal. It is the nature and character of God finding its expression here upon earth, in a man; it is a wonderful thought. God by His Spirit garnished the heavens (Job 26:13); but His Spirit was to take form in a man, and it was indicated from the outset that the man that should obtain in the presence of God should be controlled by that Spirit. Any other spirit is obnoxious to God, so that we are told that, "If any one has not the

Spirit of Christ he is not of him", Romans 8:9. It is a very solemn thing to consider that if devoid of the Spirit of Christ we are absolutely outside the pale of christianity viewed essentially, be our profession what it may, but the Spirit of Christ possessing us renders us acceptable to God and to man. That was seen in Jesus; He found favour with God and also with man. I do not say with the natural man, but with man according to God. Men who have divine instincts appreciate the Spirit of Christ.

Now I want to show how that Spirit is traced in the book of Esther; I shall dwell more particularly on Esther as the object, as it were, of the Spirit of Christ. I speak of Mordecai as also expressive of the Spirit of Christ, but he is more than that; we may all express the Spirit of Christ, but in Mordecai we have also a type of Christ.

The first point I would call attention to is a very important principle which is established in chapter 1. Mordecai does not appear there; it is a gentile scene, but there is a principle established which I may say governs God's world; namely, that a man should bear rule in his own house, and that he should speak in his own tongue; in other words, that his rule should be perfectly intelligible in house. That was the decree issued by the king; see verse 22, and it was universal. In order to seize the import of the book, we have to gather up the instruction in the preface, and that is what we find there: a man should rule his own house. We may apply this principle to the Lord Jesus; it is evident that He rules His own house, and speaks in His own language; that is, His articulations are perfectly intelligible to His house. No one can make himself understood as the Lord does, and He rules His own house.

Following upon that we may see how Christ is in type set forth in Mordecai. In the first place,

we are told that he sat in the king's gate, and that there he defended the throne. You may think that these are strange thoughts to put into a book in which the name of God is absent, but the book describes certain conditions under which the people of God were found; they were driven out from their inheritance and from Jerusalem; they were far away from the land of promise, and were scattered throughout the hundred and twenty-seven provinces of the kingdom of the Medes and Persians.

Now those conditions enable the Spirit of God to present that which is for our comfort; that is, that on the one hand God is ruling in favour of His people providentially, and on the other hand the Spirit of Christ is active in their behalf, although not acting among them officially. There was neither priest nor Levite, tabernacle of witness, nor ark of the covenant; all were absent, but the Spirit of Christ was there, and the people of God can never be deprived of that; it shone in Mordecai; he sat in the king's gate, and as there he protected the throne. You will find in the end of the chapter, verse 21, that there were those who conspired against the king, and Mordecai had the matter exposed and the offenders brought to justice. One could enlarge on how that spirit shone in Christ: how every right of God's throne was defended by Him, how He went into death in order to overthrow the enemies of the throne, and how completely He has overthrown them! But I must pass on.

The next thing we find in Mordecai is his absolute refusal to recognise Haman the Agagite. That also is the Spirit of Christ. It shone in Him personally; He refused the Agagite at every point. We are all more or less acquainted with Agag the Amalekite, of whom Haman was the representative. Haman had gained great ascendancy in the empire, and that is a marked illustration of our own day.

We see that order of man in the place of rule today, and he has attained a wonderful position of ascendancy. Now what I would especially point out is the refusal on the part of Mordecai to bow to him. He sat in the gate; he defended the king; but never would he recognise the Amalekite. Haman represents a principle or element that dominates the christianised world. I want to make it as practical as I can for we all have to do with him. His boast was the multitude of his children, chapter 5:11; it was one of the leading features of his greatness, and there are ten of them specially mentioned by the Spirit. I need not enlarge on that. Now here is an exile Jew under reproach, yet sitting in the gate without any outward support, and he refuses to bow to Haman. Die he might, but recognise Haman? Never! That is the Spirit of Christ.

Now I want to show you how that Spirit acted towards the people of God, for you may rely upon it that that which defends the throne, that which refuses satanic power, will take care of what is of God. These two things go together, and we find that what illustrates the character of Mordecai more than anything is his attitude towards Esther.

In my apprehension of the book, Esther refers to the remnant of the people of God as they then were. Her father and mother were dead. We have to do with conditions that are exceedingly like this. God will not own the public body today; He hides His face from it. One can easily see that from the addresses to the assemblies in the book of Revelation; but I only just state here that the public body is no longer owned of God. It has become a huge Babylonish system dominated by the spirit of Haman, whose children and the multitude of whose sons are distinguished therein. But has God abandoned His people? Never! God is unchangeable. He is ordering things in our favour, and you may depend

upon it that all the political movements in the world are guided providentially in our favour. The more you know of God the more you can pray to Him in regard of the world, for He is the sovereign Ruler of the world. He never gives up that place, and He rules it on behalf of His people. He is hidden behind the scenes, but He has His eye upon us, and correlatively the Spirit of Christ is active, although not officially. It is useless and unsuitable to pretend to officialism today; the day is over for that. In the ruined condition of things there is no officialism, but the Spirit of Christ remains. Thank God for that! I am sure every soul in this room has been conscious of, and affected by, the Spirit of Christ as active here upon earth.

As I have already remarked, Esther may be taken to represent the remnant of God's people. She is deprived of her parents, and is in a state of orphanage, and what we find is that Mordecai comes forward. Now the light of God entering the soul is intended to produce movement. If the light is received there must be movement, and directly you are moved by the light, you have to abandon certain things that you have leaned upon for protection. You are deprived, speaking morally, of your parents, of all that which supported you naturally. Well, Mordecai comes forward, and he takes Esther, and he not only provides for her in his house, but he takes her to be his daughter; there is affection. He may have had a sense of obligation to look after her, but it was affection that led him to take her to be his daughter.

It is a touching thing that you find affection springing up in the heart of Christ which is ready to express itself on your behalf so that you suffer no loss for what you have lost naturally. But further, he not only takes her to be his daughter, he would promote her. The Lord Jesus Christ is set for your

promotion. He is set for the promotion of the whole assembly. Without coming forward in what one may call an official way, He acts for the promotion of His own. Now that is a wonderful thing to be going on for us at the present time, and in this world too. As to the type which I am dwelling on here, it is not a question of who sat upon the throne; it was in fact a gentile potentate, but that is not the point. It was the throne; the throne of God really, and the Spirit of Christ in Mordecai was set for the promotion of Esther, of God's people, and on account of that they have to go through a certain course of experience or exercise.

Now Mordecai had light. It is a great thing to have light, a great thing to know what to do. Many christians are hampered because they do not know just what to do. Mordecai understood the situation and recognised the elements that were available, and what would be for the advantage of Esther. There was Hegai, the keeper of the women, a notable man; one who was acquainted with all that was in the house of the women. Without making things too literal, I am free, in using them as types, to say that the Holy Spirit is acquainted with all the resources of the house, and with all that there is for our advantage, and I think that the Holy Spirit is set forth typically in Hegai as taking account of Esther. She found favour with him, and as she progressed in her experience in the palace she was wise enough to recognise him; she declined to take anything save that which he prescribed.

Now I use these things as illustrations. The Holy Spirit is acquainted with all that is in the house, and He endows you with that which makes you presentable, so that coming forth as clothed, and adorned, and perfumed by Him, you are presentable; and as you are presentable you are promotable; you must be presentable in order to

be promotable. Esther was fair to look upon by nature, I dare say, but she became more desirable by the attentive service of the keeper of the house of the women; and finally she is presented to the king. I do not enlarge upon that, although a good deal might be put into it; but the result is that she is not only presented to the king, but she obtains the place of honour; she is the queen! Now that was a wonderful feat to accomplish. Mordecai was a wonderful man, as we shall see further on, but here it was a wonderful feat, to place a lonely orphan, as queen upon the throne of the Persians! But what the Lord Jesus Christ accomplishes with every believer is greater. We may think lightly of it, but it is a wonderful thing to be placed presentable before the king, and it was all the fruit of the affection and wisdom of Mordecai.

Now I pass on to the last chapter, because, after all, whilst the Spirit delights to set forth the effect of Christ's work, His great aim is to bring in the glory of Christ. You can never reach the divine end unless you apprehend the glory of Christ, and Christ reaches the pinnacle of glory whatever be the road He travels. In every path which the Lord takes up He reaches that end, and what we find here in type is that He reaches it by His prowess. That is to say, it is not presented in an official way. What we have set forth here in Mordecai is Christ in the exercise of His care for His people, and His wisdom in carrying it out. Ultimately Mordecai comes into recognition in the empire, and Esther greatly aided him in that. You may say, that in applying the types to Christ, it detracts from the glory of Christ to imply that we might aid Him in reaching this wonderful position; but what I mean is, that as we are adorned by the adornment of Christ we commend Him.

I desire to be exceedingly guarded in what I say,

but it was Mordecai who had put Esther in her place of honour, so there can be no question as to who was the greater of the two. And if the Lord Jesus Christ has adorned you with His graces, what is the effect? He is made known in public. By whom? By you and by me. One great point in the holy city in Revelation is that she is "the Lamb's wife", Revelation 21:9. But it was He who formed her. The heavenly city is the product of Christ, the product of His quickening power, and she is the Lamb's wife. The Lamb is the sufferer; it implies the Lord Jesus Christ in rejection. God honours Him, and His wife comes down from heaven adorned with His graces. She, too, honours Him, and what He has made her promotes His glory. As it is said of the wise woman in Proverbs 31:23, "Her husband is known in the gates". And so I may say here as to the type, Esther becomes the means of Mordecai's exaltation, and eventually Mordecai appears as next unto the king.

Now God has exalted Christ to His right hand. Before ever the assembly existed historically the Lord was placed in the highest pinnacle of glory, in the right of His own Person, in the virtue of His own work, apart from the assembly, apart from the saints. But it is a wonderful thing, to my mind, to see how that His own formative work here upon earth sets forth His glory in another way. The product of His quickening power brings into the universe that which is the living expression of Himself. But personally He is rejected, He is the sufferer, and so she descends out of heaven as the bride, the Lamb's wife. I think if there is anything that I shall cherish in that day it is, that as the result of His own quickening power, I add something to His glory. He is praised in His own works; they promote His glory. We find later in the book that Esther made known to the king that Mordecai was

related to her, and as a result Mordecai became supreme, universally influential in the empire of the Medes.

Hoping that I have made clear what is in my mind as regards the Spirit of Christ as set forth here, I want just to dwell upon what marked Mordecai at the end. He is said to be "next to king Ahasuerus, and great among the Jews". He had not previously been great among them evidently, but he had acquired a greatness among them. That has a peculiar application to our day. The term Jew, I take it, has reference to the people as coming under reproach. It was not a term known in Solomon's day, it came in later. From the use of the word in the addresses to the assemblies it seems to refer in our day to what is genuine. There are those "who say that they are Jews, and are not", Revelation 2:9. We want to find the Jews, beloved friends, the genuine ones; and what we find is that Christ is great among them.

I am sure it is to our advantage to recognise that the Lord has a great place among us. He ought to have a great place among us. I am not speaking of His death, of all that He has accomplished for the assembly and for the universe, but of what He has accomplished for ourselves. What has He not achieved for us! Hence He has obtained a supreme place amongst us. If you have come into contact with Him in your soul, He acquires a great place with you. It is said of Mordecai that he was "great among the Jews". I trust that the Lord Jesus Christ is great among us. We cannot add to His greatness. He is far above all principalities and powers in the heavens, but He also becomes great to us, through His care for us and His interest in us.

Then He is acceptable to all His brethren. I need not say that we have that place. Genuine christians

are the only true Jews upon earth today, and genuine christians are the only true brethren that the Lord Jesus Christ has upon earth. And "he is accepted", we are told, "of the multitude of his brethren".

Then we read that He is "seeking the welfare of his people"; their deliverance was complete. We can thank God for every deliverance. Every deliverance is the result of the Lord's interest, but besides that He 'seeks our wealth'. You may be delivered and yet be poor. Many nations have obtained deliverance and have become poor through it. These Jews, who were scattered throughout the empire were delivered. Mordecai had effected complete deliverance for them, but they needed to be made wealthy. Now Mordecai is said to be seeking the wealth of his people. I do not think that we should be poor. It is true that the Spirit of God in Zephaniah refers to the remnant as "an afflicted and poor people, and they shall trust in the name of the Lord" (Zephaniah 3:12); but the Lord is seeking to promote our wealth in His own riches. He who was rich for our sakes became poor, that we through His poverty might be enriched. The Lord has never given up that; it is not His thought to leave us poor; He is seeking the wealth of His people.