Pages 1 - 65, "The System of Grace". Readings and Addresses, Britain, 1930 (Volume 106).

THE SYSTEM OF GRACE

John 4:13,14; Genesis 21:17 - 34

J.T. I thought a word on the Spirit would help us, and that we might look at the power and effect of the truth typically upon the woman of Samaria and on Hagar. Then I think we may see how the idea of the Spirit, or the well in Genesis, is carried through in Abraham. The idea of the well goes further than the Spirit personally, including, as it does, the system of grace in which the Spirit operates, and from that point of view it is introduced first in Scripture in connection with Hagar, as belonging to the household of faith, though she never fully availed herself of it. That is, it had no permanent effect, so that she goes to Egypt for a wife for her son, she being an Egyptian. But the woman of Samaria goes back to the men of the city, but they have no power over her. Hagar goes back to where she came from for a wife for her son, proving that she was not free from it; but the woman of Sychar went back to the city, to the men, and proved that she was completely delivered from them, and from the world, in that she invites them to a Man who is not of it at all, and her invitation is effective. That is, it has power, in that it is from one in deliverance. It is in that power of deliverance from the world that we may hope to attract persons out of it.

P.G.T. Is there any difference between the thought of the well, and the rivers in chapter 7?

J.T. In chapter 7 it is rivers, alluding to the superabundance of the effect of the Spirit. "This he said concerning the Spirit, which they that believed on him were about to receive" (John 7:39), which I believe alludes

to Pentecost, where you see the full result of the Spirit come down. Rivers in scripture suggest sources of influence, bringing to light primarily what is of God -- gold and the like, (Genesis 2:10 - 14). A well is a much smaller subdivision of water. An ocean may affect continents, for according to the size of the body of water, so is its influence; while a well, being the smallest subdivision of water, rather suggests what is applicable to one person at a time and also it suggests freshness and vigour, so that it becomes a well or spring in the believer.

E.W. Does the well link one with God Himself?

J.T. I think it does. It springs up into everlasting life; it has God in view. It springs up, and the action of it here shows that the result is for God. It is the smallest subdivision of water mentioned, and is first connected with Hagar. It comes to light here first, and the well is called "Beer-lahai-roi" (Genesis 16:14), 'Well of the Living who was seen'. It is by the well that she is brought into direct touch with God. The moral effect was not there in Hagar's case, but it was evident in this woman of Samaria in John 4.

W.T. You are not speaking of the Spirit as the Comforter, but as of service as in us individually.

J.T. The thought of the well is first connected with our state of soul, for that is the point the Lord makes; He says, "Go, call thy husband". The moral state has to be adjusted before we can come into it. Hagar did not answer to it, though it was the place where she came into touch with God. At first she left the house of faith in self-will, but in spite of that, God met her. She goes out, but God met her; showing what grace is, and how this type involves that God follows us up.

The woman of Samaria, on the other hand, was an outcast, and when she gets instruction as to the well, she seems to get the spiritual thought, for she says, "Give me this water, that I thirst not, neither come hither to

draw"; but the Lord says, "Go, call thy husband". The moral question has to be gone into. She is able to go to the men of the city, and say, "Come, see a man, which told me all things that ever I did". She had already been exposed to herself; and evidently judged herself accordingly. This is the way it was meant to affect her; for the application of the well has to do with the self-acting organs in us. It has to do with the lower affections; they have to be operative, and that is by the word. Unless one is cleansed morally, there are no practical results, but then the self-acting organs are brought under the control of the Spirit, so that there is a "springing-up".

G.H.C. Is the gift of the Spirit intended to link us up with a living Person, whereas in Hagar's case it was just temporary relief?

J.T. It did not bring Hagar into a link with God. God showed wonderful grace in allowing her to find herself in these circumstances, for in them she would get the benefit of the system of grace; circumstances brought about by her own conduct. But it is added that she goes to Egypt for a wife for her son. She is responsible for her son: "lift up the lad, and hold him in thine hand"; she was held to that. She made her son to drink, then she goes off to Egypt. The self-acting organs, so to speak, were not under the influence of the Spirit. The woman of Samaria goes back to the city and says, "Come, see a man". She is delivered; the men of the city have no power over her; she has power over them for good; she is completely delivered, being in possession, in principle, of the living water.

J.H.T. Isaac came from the same well as Rebekah drew nigh.

J.T. He valued the thing, though Hagar did not; but you had something more in your mind.

J.H.T. I was thinking of the contrast between Egypt and the well.

J.T. Rebekah knew how to use the well. She is seen coming to it with a pitcher at the time the maidens came to draw water. She is not like this woman; she had not to come when others were not there. She could lift up her head. She is one who is already morally right, and she knows what to do. It is there she comes to light as a type of the church. The remarks of the servant of Abraham about her are very beautiful: "And before I had done speaking in mine heart, behold, Rebekah came forth with her pitcher on her shoulder ... And she made haste, and let down her pitcher from her shoulder, and said, Drink, and I will give thy camels drink also", (Genesis 24:45,46). Now when she reached Isaac he had just come from the well. He dwelt in the south country, and that is where the well Lahai-roi was. He is by the well; it is the means of sustenance. Moses (Exodus 2:15) sat by the well, and Joseph is "a fruitful bough by a well", (Genesis 49:22).

E.W. The Lord was waiting by this well in John 4.

J.T. In the end of chapter 3 it says, "The Father loves the Son, and has given all things to be in his hand". This is the filling out of that. "If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water". The gift of God is through a divine Person, "who it is that saith to thee".

W.T. On the other hand, would you say Rebekah made room for the Spirit?

J.T. She made room for Abraham's servant. One great idea with Rebekah is sufficiency, plenty of room, plenty of everything; but there is nothing of that about Hagar, only narrowness and worldliness. And yet God helped Ishmael; God was with him, and he became an archer, but his mother took him a wife out of Egypt. She is a type therefore of those who today participate in the Spirit (Hebrews 6), but are worldly, and never come to anything spiritually.

J.W. Did the action of Rebekah show that she knew the wealth that was connected with the well?

J.T. Quite. If you take the thing typically, it is a question of the Spirit. We have to understand the types from the standpoint of the New Testament, so the well in these passages points to the energy of life and consequent power and wealth that lie in the Spirit.

F.W.B. What is involved in Ishmael becoming an archer?

J.T. It is rather a reproach in Genesis to be an archer; it is a man who fights at a distance. It is recorded of Joseph that he is "a fruitful bough by a well". That is Christ in the fulness of grace; "the archers ... shot at him ... but his bow abode in strength". That is what the Jews did to Him, and Ishmael and Hagar are the Jewish element. They were the persecutors of Christ.

W.T. The woman in John 4 was needy.

J.T. You see the complete deliverance in John 4 in this practical way, that she goes back to her old haunts and has power for good over the men, and she directs them to a Man she has found who told her all things she ever did. She valued and enjoyed the light, although it exposed her.

W.T. Is that connected with revelation?

J.T. Surely; the only-begotten Son was there, declaring God. Of Hagar it reads, "The Angel of Jehovah found her by a spring of water", as if it were God showing interest in her though she was self-willed, and then the well is named because she was conscious that God saw her. It would be like the revelation of God to her. In the next incident her eyes are opened and she is held responsible. "Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thine hand". The lad drinks, but there is no moral effect, and his history shows that he corresponds with the Jews as hating Christ. Unless the inward members are morally cleansed through the purifying of the mind, there will be no outward effect in separation from the world. I think it is a

very poor thing if, while we may talk about having the Spirit, we are not delivered from the world. Unless the effects are seen practically, what is the use of talking about it?

W.T. Have we any antitype in the New Testament? I was wondering if there were any instances in the epistles to throw light upon it.

J.T. In the epistle to the Galatians it is brought in formally; they are said to be going back to the beggarly elements. There it is the world of religion, but at Corinth they were going back to the world of sensuality.

Ques. Do you think the woman in John 4 appreciated the difference that existed between Samaria and Jerusalem?

J.T. I think you see how she overcomes the prejudices that existed between Samaria and Jerusalem. She had talked about the Jews and the Samaritans and their rival claims. The Lord asserted what God had set among the Jews, that salvation was of them, and His word evidently affected her. The result was that her testimony brings about an abiding-place for Christ among the Samaritans, for "he abode there two days". How can there be a state of things suitable for this in a local company save as they are unworldly? The result at Samaria would indicate deliverance from the world in a moral sense; they were not thinking nationally, for as they came to Him and heard Him themselves, they say, "We have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world" (verse 42). "He abode there two days"; the period is testimony.

J.H.T. I wondered if the result of Samaria would also be seen at Colosse, where the apostle speaks of their love in the Spirit? Then they would be walking in wisdom towards those without, redeeming opportunities.

J.T. Yes; "Christ in you" (Colossians 1:27); suitable conditions were there.

Rem. Referring to Isaac, he comes from the well Lahai-roi, and then he dwells there. That is in contrast to Hagar going down to Egypt is it not?

J.T. Genesis 21 taken together with this chapter helps immensely, showing the power of the divine system of grace. Hagar did not come into the good of the thing; but what about Abraham? He is a characteristic believer. It says Abimelech and Phichol the captain of his host come to Abraham. He had moral power, and the Philistine respected that. The Philistine will never respect you unless he has to, but if he has to, he will make the best terms he can, but he will make a show of what he has got. So here, he brings his military man and says, 'You are a man of distinction'. Every man delivered from the world is that; he is marked off; he has power, and the blessing of God is with him. The Philistine king wanted to make terms regarding himself, his son, and his grandson. The power and blessing of God marked Abraham, and so he was formidable. Abimelech recognises this, so he makes a show and brings his military man, indicating that he has an army. Abraham has no army, but when the need arises he is not behind. He had trained servants in his house, (Genesis 14:14). But this is a question of those before whom you have to live; he took sheep and oxen and gave them to Abimelech, but he reproved him on account of the well. He shows he is a man of power, and you must be to stand up against a king. Abraham had no crown except a moral one, but Abimelech makes terms with him for three generations. Abraham says in effect, 'Here are seven ewe lambs; these are what I am thinking about; they represent the spirit which marks me. I do not think of being at war with you, I want to be a man of peace'. Ewe lambs are the opposite of being armed to the teeth.

Ques. What would that imply?

J.T. It is Romans 12:20, "if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink". You are thinking of the

system of grace, and you want to gain people; you do not want to be quarrelling. It is peace.

J.H.T. Why seven ewe lambs?

J.T. They set forth the perfection of the subjective results of the Spirit. You are not aggressive. The Philistine had never thought of that. It was a new thing to him, but that is the kind of man he had to reckon with. It suggests the fruit of the Spirit. There are nine varieties of the fruit of the Spirit given in Galatians 5:22 - 23: "Love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, fidelity, meekness, self-control". If that is the spirit of Abraham you can trust him. He has a wonderful influence for good. He says, "For these seven ewe lambs shalt thou take of my hand, that they may be a witness unto me, that I have digged this well". He commends the system of grace. The spirit of Christ, which marked Abraham, would thus be represented before Abimelech. The well which Abraham dug was the secret of this.

J.H.T. Why is this proposal in John 4 made to the woman and not to Nicodemus in chapter 3?

J.T. It is very remarkable that this great truth should come out in such a woman as this. I suppose it is to illustrate the system of grace. That is just what the grace of God is; it takes up the worst kind of people and makes them vessels for the display of itself. For she left her waterpot. She was a better pupil than Nicodemus; she left her waterpot. She saw the benefits of living water and immediately put the thing into effect, and the effort was successful, for the men came and believed.

Ques. Would the waterpot signify all that she was engaged with in her past history?

J.T. Yes; leaving it she indicates spirituality, that her body was to be the vessel. She saw that her body was henceforth to be employed in the system of grace. Romans brings out that our bodies are to be used; our members are to be yielded as instruments of righteousness to God. Nicodemus is a man who never came out in

definite testimony in the Lord's lifetime. He was a secret disciple. This woman identified herself with Him and was a successful evangelist immediately. Nicodemus is a very poor disciple. The woman is immediately a witness, and, through her, room is made for Christ -- a very great result.

J.H.T. Is the gift of the Spirit intended to make Christ greater to us than any one else? In John 4 He is greater than Jacob, in chapter 6 He is greater than Moses, and in chapter 7 He is greater than Abraham.

J.T. Very good. She says to the men, "Come, see a man". The Person was before her soul. That is the effect of the Holy Spirit; He engages our hearts with Christ. You feel that Hagar had never come into the assembly, typically, but this woman of Samaria had. Hagar represents the Jew with all his advantages. It has been mentioned that the effect of the Spirit is to bring testimony for Christ. Compare Nicodemus with this woman; although he came out at the end, this woman is immediately a fruitful witness, and room is made for Christ.

I think Abraham intended that these ewe lambs should be before Abimelech as representative of his spirit, and it was to maintain the well in its proper character. It would be safe in the hands of Abraham. It is very important to keep the system of grace clear, for it ought to produce the same spirit in any one. The Galatians were giving it up. Then in chapter 26, Abimelech discerning that God was also with Isaac, comes back to Isaac with Ahuzzath his friend, and Phichol the captain of his host. He comes back with an additional man, that is his friend -- three of them, which I suppose would be royalty, military power, and the social thing, the latter being based on friendship. That was a formidable array, and that is what we have to contend with. The social element is an added thing, but it did not overcome Isaac. He sent them away, and that same day his servants came and told him that the water gushed up. It is called a city in chapter

26; in chapter 21 it is called a place; there is advance in the instruction. The city implies that there is an order of things in which there is light and rule. We are to cherish assembly order. We have been speaking of people with whom the Lord can abide, but now it is a city (verse 33). You must have light and rule and authority; all that stands in relation to the well Beer-sheba. Beer-sheba also stands for the faithfulness of God. It is where God appears to Jacob as the God of his father Isaac, meaning that everything is secure in a risen Christ; it is Isaac, not Abraham.

E.W. What is the point in Abraham planting a tree by the well and calling on "the name of Jehovah, the Eternal God"?

J.T. He has gained a moral victory and entered into an engagement with Abimelech; this was in the knowledge of the eternal God. Moses alludes to the idea afterwards: "The eternal God is thy refuge" (Deuteronomy 33:27), and "Thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations", (Psalm 90:1).

W.D. Does making room for the Spirit enable us to magnify what is of Christ and then get rid of these things?

J.T. The use of the figure of the well is in view of being independent of the world. Moses sat by the well, that being the divine thought instead of the energy of the flesh. The great legislator and administrator sat by the well. The thing is set up in Genesis in Joseph, a fruitful bough by a well. Moses sat by the well as the administrator of it. John 4 is really administrative, the Father having given all things into the hand of the Son.

Ques. Where does the well in Numbers link on with this subject?

J.T. The well in Numbers has a very great link. The administrative side is in view in "the lawgiver" and "the princes", but it is the power by which they go into Canaan. "Spring up, O well", (Numbers 21:17). After that the people go from one point to another until they

reach the top of Pisgah, then they take a retrospective view of the journey and see all that God has been to them. You see the wilderness, and the point is to look over "the waste" to see what God has been to you there. The Spirit enables us to look back over our whole history and see how God has been working with us, what He has been to us.

DIVINE APPEARINGS

Exodus 3:1 - 6; Exodus 16:10; Exodus 24:9 - 11; Exodus 34:5 - 7

J.T. I thought we might look at the book of Exodus with regard to certain divine appearings there. Certain features of the truth come out in relation to these appearings in Exodus, which, it occurred to me, the Lord would help us in considering. The first divine appearing in scripture was to Abraham, and many followed, including what we get in this book; but I think we shall find sufficient matter in the scriptures we have read to occupy us this afternoon. The idea of divine appearing or manifestation runs right through scripture, and implies that God not only furnishes His people with light, but with impressions of Himself. In appearing to Abraham, God is spoken of as "the God of glory" (Acts 7:2); but in this book we have the glory itself beginning to shine, and that in the wilderness. In chapter 16 they looked towards the wilderness, as if God would remind us at this juncture that that is where the glory lies. His glory is seen in the wilderness conditions as they are accepted. Israel were not accepting them; they were thinking of what they had in Egypt, and, in heart, were turning back; but God was reminding them by this first appearing of the glory that there would be no glory for them in Egypt. If you look back into the world, it means that you are turning from the glory. God took Moses in hand first, so that he might be impressed personally. If he were to give a lead to the people, he must be impressed personally with the manifestation of God. So that, in chapter 3, it is as if God approved the movements and attitude of Moses at that particular juncture. He had been content with the circumstances -- to dwell in Midian with Reuel, remaining with him forty years, keeping his flock unselfishly.

He led the flock to the backside of the desert, but it was to Horeb, the mount of God.

T.T. Do you mean that we have to come out of Egypt to behold His glory?

J.T. Yes, that is how chapter 16 stands. In chapter 3 Moses is in keeping with his circumstances in the wilderness. He is content "to dwell with the man", although the circumstances were very different from those to which he had been accustomed. We are reminded at the outset of the importance of contentment with the circumstances into which we may be led under the government of God.

J.L. Do you suggest that his turning aside to see the burning bush was a deliberate act?

J.T. That is what it says. Moses said, "I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt". We are not told to whom he spoke. He must have been taking counsel with himself; like Nehemiah. If we learn to do that, we shall avoid special friendships. It is right to take counsel with the brethren as we have opportunity, but it is well to take counsel with oneself. "I will now turn aside, and see this great sight". He did not turn aside as a casual observer, or a curious person. "I will now turn aside", he said, "to see this great sight". He already took in that it was a great matter; there was something very unusual.

W.S.S. It is very encouraging that the glory is to be seen in wilderness conditions.

J.T. It is; and then the resolving in oneself to turn aside to see it; there is something to be seen.

W.S.S. I was thinking of the loss to the saints if they do not get into the wilderness.

J.T. The Lord says of John the baptist, "What went ye out in the wilderness for to see?" (Luke 7:24). The people of the world have no difficulty in giving an account of what they are going to see -- the races, or the theatre; but what conception have we got of what is to be seen in

a divine manifestation? And then question as to whether there is resolve of heart to turn aside. It is not simply to look aside, but to turn; the whole person is definitely occupied.

J.H.T. I was wondering if that would come in at the close of Romans 8, the mind being set in that direction. And then collectively, as in the epistles to the Corinthians; Paul was bent upon getting the Corinthian saints to part with every Egyptian feature, and then he held out a ministry of glory for them.

J.T. Quite. I think that Romans 8 fits in with the experience of Moses -- at the end certainly. He began thus -- turned aside to see; it was resolve of heart, and later on he asked to see the glory, which he could not, but he saw much, as we see in chapter 34, and at the end God takes him up, and he sees beyond anything that man could see naturally; he is shown the whole land. Then later he is brought into the mount of transfiguration. We begin as christians with resolve to see fully what God presents to us.

W.S.S. This resolve was reached after a long experience in the wilderness. I wondered if you had some application to make of that?

J.T. I think Moses sets out the principle of accepting the wilderness. In order to be a leader of the saints, you must accept the circumstances in which they are to be led. He was already leading; he "led the flock", we are told. He had begun by watering them, or rather he helped the daughters of Reuel to do so.

T.T. The people of God were in Egypt at this time, and yet the appearing seems to be connected with the people of God.

J.T. It had their deliverance in view; but at the moment it is not for them, but for the deliverer, for the leader.

I.R. What had you in mind with regard to the burning bush as affecting us today?

J.T. I think the burning bush is the presence of God

in these lowly circumstances. God intimates that He would be in the midst of His people, in the littleness of their circumstances in the wilderness. The divine appearing was in a thorn bush. It would set forth what was outwardly insignificant; but God was in it, and although the fire burned, the bush was not consumed. It was the presence of God in the midst of His people in their circumstances, intimating that in this world our outward circumstances are insignificant and despicable; but He is not ashamed to be with us nevertheless. Besides, His judgment is there.

Rem. You were speaking about the 'seeing'; is not that a great thought in John's gospel?

J.T. The appearing in the bush corresponds with the Word becoming flesh. The Lord, although God, came into these small circumstances. But although in lowliness as Man, the apostles "contemplated his glory", (John 1:14).

E.L.M. Would the glory coming in in that way relate to the coming in of the beloved Son, as seen in John 1? I wondered if it suggested the thought of God being in Christ, coming down into lowly circumstances.

J.T. It does. John 1 presents the deity of Christ; that such an One should become flesh, should take that condition, is the marvellous fact stated. The Lord took a wonderful stoop in becoming flesh. It was no imaginary thing; he became flesh.

E.L.M. I was wondering whether the first scripture might suggest a vessel for that glory to be seen in; afterwards it is simply the glory itself that is mentioned.

J.T. I think this may be rightly taken with John 1:14, "the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us". It is God coming in; He says, "I am come down". Moses was to understand that although He was in such lowly circumstances, He was nevertheless the same Person. Moses was to be impressed with the deity of the Person before him; the name of the Person in the bush is "I AM", (Exodus 3:14).

J.E. When Stephen refers to this he says, "as he went up to consider it", (Acts 7:31). Is there anything in that?

J.T. It is the same idea; in turning aside to see, he was taking account of the thing in an interested way, just as the apostles contemplated the glory of the Word as become flesh.

Rem. The Lord said to the two disciples of John who followed Him, "Come and see", (John 1:39).

J.T. Yes, that came in afterwards; they came and saw where He abode.

J.L. It says here that the Lord saw that Moses turned aside, and then He calls, the result being that Moses says, "Here am I".

J.T. The person who thus turns aside is taken account of by God. What runs through scripture in regard to service is personality. God intended a great personality to shine out in Moses, and this was to enhance it. Moses was to take on impressions. The first thing is, he is addressed: "Moses, Moses", showing how definitely he is now regarded; he was to be known personally. Later history shows how that came about, how the man Moses became very great, and God spoke with him "face to face, as a man speaks with his friend", (Exodus 33:11).

T.T. Would you say what the appearing in the flame of fire teaches us today?

J.T. I think it is, "Our God is a consuming fire" (Hebrews 12:29); that is what it would be for us; it is "our God". The fire would denote God's means of dealing with the flesh in His people, but with all He would be with them and bring them through. I think the Holy Spirit coming in the character of cloven tongues implies that, so that God is to be feared -- not in a slavish way, but He will not brook the flesh among us.

J.H.T. Would this experience be designed to give this servant or leader suitable sympathies to move with the people of God in any circumstances?

J.T. I think so. If you see how God has come in in

Christ in such lowly circumstances, it encourages you to be with the people of God, in whatever circumstances they may be. One does not select one's circumstances. Moses had already qualified in that he had accepted the circumstances which the government of God brought him into. "He sat by the well"; then "he was content to dwell with the man"; he consented to remain in Midian with Reuel, although the circumstances were very different from those to which he was accustomed. I believe that is a great point for all of us, especially for those who serve, to accept the circumstances which God brings us into. God is saying, as it were, to Moses, 'I am going to accept the circumstances of My people, I am going to be with them whatever these may be'.

E.L.M. Moses was ahead of the people; he accepted the circumstances, whereas they thought of Egypt.

J.T. God is saying virtually that He was to be in the wilderness with His people, and that the sphere of the glory was to be reached through the wilderness. Are we to accept what Egypt affords us, or what God proposes for us?

In chapter 16:10, when Aaron speaks to them, they look toward the wilderness, and there the glory is.

W.S.S. Would the teaching of this passage be connected with the truth of the epistle to the Corinthians, the apostle accepting the circumstances there as they affected himself?

J.T. That is what comes out. He had learned, in whatever circumstances he was, to be content, and that is what is said of Moses in chapter 12 -- he consented to dwell with the man. You might say it was because he was going to get a wife there, but there is nothing said about that until he consents to dwell with the man.

W.S.S. I was wondering if the apostle Paul's teaching in 1 and 2 Corinthians would have in view the gain of wilderness conditions?

J.T. I think that God is intimating that Moses is

qualified. He was content, not only to dwell with the man, but to look after his sheep. It was a menial occupation for a man like Moses. After forty years, he is still unselfishly engaged with the flock of his father-in-law -- not even his father, but his father-in-law. God comes in to show that He approves of Moses, who is not serving for wages. No one who serves for wages is qualified in the eyes of God. Not that he does not get wages; he does, far more than he could have bargained for; but God is not seeking service on that line. Moses qualified in that he was not serving for wages; he was looking after his father-in-law's sheep. That is the thing, that you are serving what belongs to Christ. "Ourselves your bondmen for Jesus' sake", (2 Corinthians 4:5). God shows that He approves of Moses in that He appears to him in the thorn-bush, as if He intimated that He would come into like circumstances because of Israel. I think that is implied when He took Moses, Aaron, Nadab, Abihu, and the seventy elders to the mount, that they might see His circumstances above, and then they would appreciate those into which He was coming in order to be with them.

E.B.G. Is the thought in appearing that there may be some divine impression given in view of service or leadership? I was thinking of what was said to the apostle Paul, "... a witness both of what thou hast seen, and of what I shall appear to thee in", (Acts 26:16).

J.T. I think that is the principle; every servant gets impressions peculiar to himself. No one else had this. It was for Moses, and it would be in his soul ever after, and would give character to his service.

E.B.G. Do you distinguish between light and impression? You might say a little more about that.

J.T. I think there is a very important distinction. An impression of God or of Christ implies that He is here livingly. Of course this can be maintained only by the Spirit. It is not a mere system of doctrine or precepts, but

that the Spirit is here, and those who are in the system take on impressions through Him. So the Lord said to Paul, "... of what I shall appear to thee in", not only at the beginning, but what he would get afterwards. So throughout Moses' history, God appeared to him from time to time; he was thus kept in freshness, and so representative of God.

Rem. Moses was kept in the sense of this all through his history with God; he loved the people, and was able to say how Jehovah loved them.

J.T. God so loved them that He would be with them in their circumstances. He had never asked them to build Him a house of cedars, He says to David.

W.L. Would the thorn bush teach Moses not to expect anything from the people, but the voice from the bush teach him to expect everything from Him?

J.T. That is so, I am sure. The after-history proved that Moses suffered from the people, but found abundant resources in God.

A.G. Would you say that the impressions of Pharaoh's court disqualified Moses, but that the impression he got at the burning bush qualified him as a leader?

J.T. Yes; the former would inflate him; the latter would reduce him, leading him to disallow the flesh.

J.L. Why, in chapter 16:10, do we get Aaron speaking, and not Moses?

J.T. The communication is to Moses, but Aaron is brought into it. It says in verse 9, "And Moses spoke to Aaron, Say to all the assembly of the children of Israel, Come near unto the presence of Jehovah, for he has heard your murmurings". At this stage of the people's history grace ruled, and this is conveyed peculiarly in the speaking of Aaron, that is, as through a brother. "Is not Aaron the Levite thy brother? I know that he can speak well". God had heard him speak -- perhaps in prayer, so that the speaking coming through Aaron would convey divine sympathy and consideration for the people at this

stage. Although they were murmuring, God would hold to His principle of grace ruling, and so what comes out in chapter 16 is the manna. As the people murmured Jehovah said, "Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you". The manna also speaks of littleness, but it is from heaven -- "a small round thing". It is Christ as Man; what He was down here in wilderness circumstances. That is what the manna is -- a heavenly Man here. The word 'manna' is from 'man', referring to the inquiry as to what it was (verse 15). We may well inquire what it is, and get the true answer. It is Christ as in this world, in which He had to do with all human circum stances, sin apart. It is Christ thus as food for us, as in the wilderness. They had spoken of sitting by the flesh-pot in Egypt and eating bread to the full. God says, I will give you bread from heaven. There was no reproof; it was accompanied by this tender, sympathetic, gracious consideration. Even if they "sat by the flesh-pots" in Egypt, it would not be for very long, the taskmasters would tell them to move; but God says in effect, 'I have a rest, a holy Sabbath for you' (verse 23); 'I want you to come into My sabbath, to sit for a whole day and do nothing but enjoy this bread that I am going to rain down for you from heaven'. All this is in keeping with Aaron's speaking, hearing which the people turned toward the wilderness, and the glory of Jehovah appeared in the cloud.

E.L.M. That would be another impression of "the goodwill of him that dwelt in the bush"?

J.T. Yes -- how beautiful that word is!

E.L.M. I was wondering whether there is ever a greater impression given than the initial one. In principle, God gives the best at the outset, though we may take a long time to learn what was involved in it.

J.T. In a sense, all that follows is the unfolding and enlarging of that, new features being added. The apostles contemplated the glory of Jesus as the glory of an only

begotten with the Father, full of grace and truth. The unfolding of that is seen throughout John's gospel.

E.S. Why did the glory appear in this way just at this point? Was it to attract towards the wilderness?

J.T. That is so. They looked in that direction. They turned towards the wilderness. It would look as if Aaron's ministry was affecting them. It is the principle of turning; they needed converting. Most of us need more than one conversion, like Peter.

E.S. Does Aaron being introduced suggest priestly support and help?

J.T. I think so, to make the position attractive. God makes the wilderness attractive, especially to young christians, so all is grace in His relations with His people up to chapter 19. After the law is given, having accepted it, they come under judgment on account of their conduct, but not at this stage; God makes the thing attractive; He is bearing them on eagles' wings to Himself. "The Man Christ Jesus" -- that is the suggestion in Aaron, so that they turn round and look toward the wilderness. God says, I will honour you in turning round, and the glory was there to be seen in the cloud in the wilderness.

E.L.M. Does Moses speak to Aaron in the power of the impression he had received in regard to the people of God?

J.T. Undoubtedly. We should all speak in the power of the impression that we receive, because the minister should always remember that he represents Christ. It is not only what I say, but what I am, so that it is recorded of the Lord that they "wondered at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth", (Luke 4:22).

W.A.S. Would the manna and the glory go together in Luke? Is that the principle here?

J.T. Yes. Some of us were speaking about the shepherds in Luke 2; they were keeping watch over their flocks by night, when others were in the towns, the

census being taken. These were not; they were keeping their flocks by night, and it says the angel of the Lord appeared and the glory shone round about them. They are encircled by another world, we may say. That is what the glory implies; it is another world brought in -- that is the idea in Luke. There is the communication by the angel to them, then a multitude of the heavenly host is there; they are in the presence of a multitude of heavenly beings, who know what is in heaven, and what its mind is, and they are conveying it in what they are saying. These shepherds are honoured in that they are brought into such glory -- into heaven itself in a sense. In our chapter the people turn toward the wilderness and the glory is there to be seen.

J.H.T. It was there in view of the whole congregation.

J.T. I think so. Aaron speaks, and the people turn round to see. It is a spiritual matter. If people turn in this sense they will see something; God will show them something. The idea of ministry is to interest you, but you must turn toward the wilderness; then you will get a view of Christ, of the glory of the Lord.

T.T. God seems to meet the people in their present condition and gives them a sight of the glory?

J.T. Yes. It is entirely on the line of grace up to chapter 19. He had borne them on eagles' wings. But what is suggested in this chapter is, Am I ready to listen to Aaron (Christ) speaking? They turn round, and there the glory was; and then we have all this beautiful instruction about the manna and the sabbath; it is one of the most interesting chapters in the Old Testament. We have in it the first mention of the sabbath since Genesis 2. As young christians turn aside and talk about what they had in the world, God says, Look at what I am going to give you. I am going to rain bread from heaven for you. Here the manna tastes like honey; in Numbers, like oil. It is less tasteful in Numbers, but here it is for the young

believer. It is like honey -- very different from garlic! The taste of it is not what I have been accustomed to, but I am different; I am converted.

A.G. In the wilderness this food is to build up a spiritual constitution.

J.T. Yes; it enables you to be like Christ here. In Romans 6 you are to walk in newness of life. For that we need this food.

W.L. It would make us like what it is itself -- small, sweet, and round.

T.T. Quails were not God's thought for the people?

J.T. They were not, but I suppose they would represent the consideration of God here. There is not so much made of them here; He would emphasise His grace at this juncture. Later on He brings in judgment with the quails. God's own thought is the manna; it is "the corn of heaven", "the bread of the mighty". If I do not like it, there is something wrong with me. If heavenly dignitaries live on it, and I do not like it, there must be something wrong with my taste.

W.L. The manna was given to prove them. In what way was it a test?

J.T. With other things in the wilderness, it was to 'humble' and 'prove' them (Deuteronomy 8) -- that they should not be inflated and independent of God. If one does not care for the manna, he is exposed; his natural taste remains in him, like Moab, (Jeremiah 48:11). People in the world are very concerned that they should be in line with current customs as to the food they eat and the clothes they wear. If God sends food from heaven, food that angels eat, and I do not like it, I am in a fleshly condition. Why is my taste different from that of heavenly beings? I will never get the flesh-pots of Egypt up there! I must acquire the heavenly taste down here.

T.T. It is being given daily. Is it not a test really whether one has a taste for what the Lord is giving now?

J.T. That is right. "No one having drunk old wine straightway wishes for new, for he says, The old is better", (Luke 5:39).

W.S.S. Would that bring us to the next scripture, that the acquiring we have spoken of would qualify us to go on to the mount?

J.T. That is the next thing. You have what is little down here -- God in the bush, and the small round thing lying on the dew, to be gathered up daily, showing the wonderful humiliation of Christ. Now the next thing is, What is Christ on high?

W.S.S. I was wondering if you had in mind that if we are not appropriating the manna we are not qualified to enter into that side of things?

J.T. I have -- manna prepares us for heaven. The experience of the disciples before the transfiguration corresponds. "There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom". That challenges me as to whether I have been building up a heavenly constitution. How am I to be up there? The question of eating enters into it. In chapter 24:11 they were taken up, they saw the God of Israel and did eat and drink. What did they eat and drink up there? No flesh-pots up there! So that if they did not have a taste for what is heavenly, they would at best be pretending to enjoy the thing. Many people come to a meeting, then they go home and read a novel or a magazine. Your taste is really in the novel, the paper, or the magazine. That is where I am tested. Those who ascended the mountain were ready for what was up there -- spiritual food. Note how "they saw God, and did eat and drink". They were "nobles of the children of Israel". God did not lay His hands on them; they represent spiritual persons. God delights to have us up there, but if we have not a taste for the food that is there, what pleasure has He in us?

E.B.G. Is this on the line of 2 Corinthians 11, learning

what it was to go down, and then in chapter 12 learning what it is to go up?

J.T. Yes; very good.

J.L. This would be the connection between Luke 9 and 10 -- the transfiguration in chapter 9 and the sending out of the seventy in chapter 10.

J.T. Yes, and the Lord declaring that their names are written in heaven. I think in Luke the principle is that heaven comes down in testimony. Heaven comes down in the multitude of the heavenly host; then in chapter 10 I am given to understand that I have a footing in heaven personally, so that if I go there I am not unknown; I am not a stranger.

T.T. What is the thought of the paved work of sapphire?

J.T. It would indicate the kind of circumstances in which God was -- His own sphere. He was going to walk with them in the desert -- on the desert sand, so to speak. There is nothing said of flooring in the instructions for the tabernacle, given later.

T.T. Was that in relation to God revealed in Christ?

J.T. I think we are limited in apprehending the circumstances of Christ in heaven, what belongs to Himself in His own right; in grace He has come down to our circumstances. I think they were led up to see so that they might understand His grace in coming down. He was coming down to dwell in the tabernacle. As to the inside material of the tabernacle, its furniture and compartments, it was a figurative representation of things in the heavens; but the floor, where He was going to walk, was the desert sand.

T.T. It was a paved 'work' of sapphire stone. Does that suggest that something had been done?

J.T. Yes; God is seen in relation to made or created things.

W.L. Would the pavement suggest the counsels of God, the way God has put things together?

J.T. It is "transparent sapphire". What is conveyed is a work of white or transparent material of the most precious quality. It is what is under His feet. We may compare it with what was under the feet of Jesus coming into this world. The woman in Luke 7 would consider that His feet were not on a pavement of sapphire, but in the thorny way.

A.G. Why is He called the God of Israel?

J.T. The God of the Hebrews is what He is down here with us; up there all is dignity and glory. It is the spiritual realm, so that you have 'nobles' here, the nobles of Israel.

Chapter 33 brings that out -- how God stands by Moses; it is another appearing, God honouring his servant. He comes down and stands with him at the tent door, honouring Moses down here in his faithfulness as taking the tabernacle and pitching it outside the camp. But in chapter 34 He honours him in his desire, in his personal desire to see the glory; it is an ascending line in this appearing. It is "on the top of the mountain". Moses goes up, and God comes down "and stood beside him there", and proclaims before Moses the name of the Lord; He is now to be known typically in the new covenant. We have now a divine impression in Moses, a reflection of the glory; he shines as he comes down. The saints are to reflect what God is. We are changed, by beholding the glory of the Lord, into the same image from glory to glory.

Ques. Is the glory of the Lord the display of the Person?

J.T. It is the display of what God is. The glory of the Lord in 2 Corinthians refers to His mediatorial service in making effective in our hearts the love of God. Chapter 3 is His mediatorial service; in chapter 4 the glory of God is seen in the face of Jesus. It shines there, and it shines into our hearts. That corresponds with this chapter. The glory is reflected in the saints down here.

J.H.T. Paul was an able minister of the new covenant, to reflect what he saw.

J.T. Exactly. He was the personification of what he had seen, in that sense.

LEADING OUT AND IN

Luke 24:50 - 53; Acts 1:9 - 14

J.T. I was thinking of the leading that is furnished to the saints. The Lord led here in Luke; the leading of the Spirit, I believe, is illustrated in the passage in the Acts.

J.W. Is the leading of the Spirit suggested by the mount of Olives in the Acts?

J.T. Yes. The passage read involves our understanding the way into heaven, so that emphasis is laid upon the fact that He was taken up, they beholding Him. It is not only the fact that He was taken up, but that they beheld Him. In Luke it is as He blesses them that He is carried up; mention is not made of their seeing Him, but in the Acts note is taken of the fact that they beheld Him. Then again the two men say, "This Jesus who has been taken up from you into heaven, shall thus come in the manner in which ye have beheld him going into heaven". So that the instruction here, I believe, includes our knowledge of the manner of going into heaven and of coming out of heaven. The Lord must lead in everything. They beholding Him would get the impression of how He went in, and then that He would come out as they beheld Him go in.

The principle of divine leading is most essential now -- as at all times, but now because of the extraordinary difficulties that souls have in finding their way, and then as having found it, in being brought to the point of understanding the leading of the Spirit. The leading of the Spirit has to be taken up itself. It is said in Romans 8:14, "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God". It implies what is more advanced in our experience than the leading of the Lord. There is also angelic leading, which the book of Acts indicates, and which has to be noted; but I thought we might confine

ourselves to the Lord's leading and where He leads to, and then the Spirit's leading. Many, I think, stop with the Lord's leading. It is well, of course, that they should understand that, but the Spirit's leading takes us all the way. In the types, the leading of the Lord is implied in the cloud over the tent of the tabernacle. The leading of the Spirit comes in after Numbers 21, where the springing well is mentioned, and from that point they go into Canaan. It is the sons of God who go into Canaan, and as led by the Spirit they prove themselves sons of God.

S.B. The leading of the Spirit can only come in after the Lord has been received up, hence it is more advanced.

J.T. Yes. We have the leading of the Lord after we learn in subjection how to follow the Lord. The Corinthians were defective; they were not even proving the leadership of the Lord in their position at Corinth, greatly as they needed that leading; they were occupied with men as leaders. One said he was of Paul, another of Apollos, another of Cephas, and another of Christ -- not Christ in the proper sense, but Christ as connected with a party, which He could never be. We can never connect Christ with a party, but these men were endeavouring to do it for the sake of appearance. It was on partisan lines; it was not the leading of the Lord at all. Hence 1 Corinthians 1 shows how to get rid of the natural man who has become distinguished and influential among christians and seeks to be a leader; the first chapter shows how the saints should get rid of him. Chapter 2 makes room for the Spirit, so that the Spirit has His place amongst us.

T.T. Is there a definite end reached in Luke's gospel?

J.T. That is what I thought we might note. He led them to a point. There is no definite point reached in the Spirit's leading, because He leads to eternity, so to speak. He leads us into the land, and we cannot limit that; but the Lord leads us to a point, to the place where love is known to reside. There is that on earth at the present time, a place where love is resident, and known to be

resident. Love is a quality or thing that the Lord speaks of: "Have love amongst yourselves", (John 13:35). He leads to where love is; Bethany represents this.

Ques. What corresponds with Bethany today?

J.T. The features of Bethany appear in the assembly. The exercise which leads to Bethany in John's gospel is in chapter 9, where the man has his eyes opened, and his neighbours inquire as to it and he is able to give an account. It has a local bearing. In his confession of Christ he is outside the camp; he is cast out, and the Lord finds him and reveals Himself to him as the Son of God, and he worships Him. That is the beginning of what terminates in Bethany, a local setting where there are those who, as loved of Christ, love Christ and know what to do.

T.T. Is it like the two last songs of degrees -- we are led to a certain point?

J.T. Very much like that. The songs of degrees begin in Psalm 120 after Psalm 119, meaning that I am thoroughly adjusted as to the word of God, the law of God, the testimony of God, the precepts of God; all these are cherished in a believer's heart, and that is the man that goes up. Unity is reached in Psalm 133; that state among the saints is reached and so the blessing is commanded -- "there the Lord commanded the blessing".

J.L. Would you say, in connection with the Lord's leading, that Luke would lead you out of wrong circumstances, and John would lead you in to what is of God?

J.T. That is right. Luke leads us out; he leads us outside the camp -- not simply negatively, but in a positive way. That is what young christians ought to see; there is a positive thing outside, and that is what Bethany represents. It is a place where love resides; it is known to be there.

W.S.S. Would the point reached in Acts 1, where these various ones are named, represent the basis of the leading of the Spirit?

J.T. Yes, I think so. The Spirit leads upward, but you begin with Bethany, I think. The Holy Spirit operates where love is; here there is room, so to speak, and there you begin to see the movements of the sons. It is one thing to see the movements of the subjects of the Lord, but the movements of sons are in relation to heaven and indicative of what heaven is.

W.S.S. Do these two characters of leading run concurrently?

J.T. Yes, they do; hence while we are down here we are always under the Lord's direction, so that the Spirit s leading enters more into assembly relations.

W.S.S. I was thinking in that connection of the overcomer, with whom the hearing of the voice of the Spirit is so closely connected in Revelation.

R.R. It says in Matthew 21:17, "He went forth out of the city to Bethany, and there he passed the night". That would be shortly before leading them out to Bethany.

J.T. It was a retreat that He had, because it was a place of love; it was a place where He was honoured. He knew it well. The Lord knows the spot where love is. If any young christian is being led by the Lord, He is leading him there. He has Bethany here today, and He has been there Himself. The Lord ever comes to where love resides.

Rem. It says, "Now Jesus loved Martha, and her sister, and Lazarus", (John 11:5) and they returned it; there was a sphere where love was, as thus shown.

J.T. No one knew it better than the Lord. When He went there at first, Bethany was a chilly place. Martha did well in inviting Him into her house, but she criticised Him afterwards. Being invited into a house is not everything; sometimes you would rather go elsewhere. The invitation is not all; what is found in the house indicates the state of the host or hostess. Luke 7 shows that while Simon invited the Lord he had no love for Him.

S.B. The great testimony is rendered to love.

J.T. Martha received Him into her house. It was evidently her house, and she did well in receiving Him, but ill in her treatment of Him afterwards. The after-treatment indicated the state she was in.

T.T. It would seem that what we have at the end of Luke is preparing us for the leading of the Spirit. They were to remain in the city until they were endued with power from on high. This would prepare for that?

J.T. Yes, they went back into the city from that point. It is well to note the beginnings of Bethany, because it describes the beginnings of most of our meetings; the initial history of most of the meetings may be described in that way. The Lord is owned and received, but He does not afterwards obtain the attention and the respect that is due. Martha complains to Him: "Carest thou not ..". (Luke 10:40). She complained about her sister, but about Him really, that He was involved in what she considered the inertness of her sister, and therefore she created a very unhappy state of things. So that all that subsequently came about in Bethany was His own doing. He knew their history well; He laid the foundation of love in that place; and Mary was the link, for she sat at His feet hearing His word. The Lord is obliged to defend one disciple against the attacks of another. That is how things work out in many gatherings; He does it, and never fails to do it, so that no one needs to defend himself against personal attacks. Where there is dissension, as at Corinth, there is a chilliness in the place, and the Lord, instead of finding a congenial spot, has to be occupied with putting things right. That is what marked the beginning of Bethany, but He did put things right in a most effective way, so that His last visit there was evidently delightful to Him. He came at a definite time -- six days before the Passover -- because in John He is never governed by religious custom. He respects certain Jewish customs according to the other evangelists, but not in John; here He takes His own time; He is the Maker of time, He that

set the sun in the heavens. He is not governed in John by anything that is here. He is making His own time, and we have to be prepared for that. He comes six days before the Passover. But they were ready evidently; He did not take them by surprise. They knew the Lord; they knew what to do as He came to them. They knew well that He would not come as a Pharisee would come; He would come in His own way; they had things ready; "there therefore they made him a supper". It will he noticed that 'therefore' is used several times in the first few verses of John 12; it is to emphasise that they were acting on the principle of sequence.

J.E. Under the leading of the Lord in that way, do we get to know as well as the Lord that love is resident there?

J.T. Yes, we do. "Jesus therefore, six days before the passover, came to Bethany, where was the dead man Lazarus, whom Jesus raised from among the dead. There therefore they made him a supper". That is, He being there, it was no question of their invitation, it is a question of what the Lord does. In John He is acting of Himself.

J.W. You would read what happens here in the light of John?

J.T. Yes; it has allusion to what was in Bethany. John gives you more than anyone as to what was at Bethany, because he would bring out from the facts relative to Bethany what a locality should be. He is concerned about what a locality should be for Christ, that is, it is the residence of love, and the Lord can come at His own time -- not when we expect Him, but at His own time; if love exists He can always freely come.

J.W. What is the force then of His leading as far as to Bethany in Luke 24?

J.T. He knew exactly what was there; He knew the history of Bethany. No one else knew as He did, and He led them there in view of ascension. Lazarus was there.

In John 12 He comes in relation to Lazarus, but here all that marked Bethany would be in view.

T.T. This was really a place of His own making. The Lord has to prepare a place really; He has to adjust us.

J.T. Yes, it is His own making. He found a chilly place there at first, but He did not leave it like that. It was a place of love according to John's gospel; that is to say, from John's point of view, local conditions are so affected by love through the Lord's teaching and influence that He can come at His own time.

W.S.F. Do you get the family circle in Bethany, and the Supper as following on?

J.T. The point at Bethany is not the Lord's supper; they provide Him a supper. It is what they make for Him.

Ques. How does that apply at the present day? How do we provide for the Lord?

J.T. What He provides for us is His supper; that is, on the first day of the week. It is connected with a day and an hour in scripture; but when the Lord came to Bethany, it was at no set time. In John, set times are set aside, because love is not governed by set times. Heaven is not regulated by set times.

-- R. In the Song of Songs the bride found herself unprepared. We might not be ready for the visit of the Lord.

J.T. Yes. If I go to a house to which I am not invited, I may be received in, but perhaps I am made to feel that I am not there by invitation; or even if I have been invited, I may feel that I have come too soon. John is on the line of liberty, the liberty of love, that if the Lord comes He finds things ready -- and there is no intimation, as far as scripture goes, that He was coming to Bethany. He had waited two days in chapter 11; it was necessary that He should wait before He came to raise Lazarus; but in chapter 12 there is no intimation that He was coming.

J.E. When He came, suitable conditions were there.

J.T. That is the point. If love resides in a place, the

Lord can come any time and find something for Himself.

Ques. Had you something further to suggest in His lifting up His hands and blessing them?

J.T. Well, that is where the blessing takes place. It is not only that He blesses them, but He blesses them there.

T.T. This would raise a very serious exercise in regard to our local conditions.

J.T. That is what I had in mind.

I.R. Had you in mind that the Lord should be free to come in on any occasion we come together, whatever may be the character of the occasion?

J.T. Yes, and even if we are not together. The point in John 12 is not that He came to a company, but He came to the place; we are to notice that. The Lord may come to this place any time. The place may have two, three, or a dozen companies; all would be in view in His coming. If He comes to a place, what does He find in it? Suppose there are two or three companies as in Birkenhead: it is a question what conditions exist. Are the relations right between the companies? The place involves all that; or has He to come to set things right? If He has to come to set things right, they cannot make Him a supper; they are not free for that on account of their state.

A.F.G. Would you say this readiness should be normal -- readiness for the Lord?

J.T. Yes; love makes you ready. As has been remarked, the bride in Canticles was not ready when her Beloved came; she does not at first open the door.

Ques. Is there any reason why it is only in John you get the mention of Lazarus?

J.T. Yes, a very good reason. He is a risen man. He does not speak, but he is a testimony to Christ nevertheless. That is an element that you would expect in John, because a living man influences people without saying anything; his very breathing, the way he sits down, the

way he stands up, the way he moves about, everything in that man is effective; there is testimony in it.

Rem. It would seem that it was really the result of the operations of God in Lazarus that the conditions were formed at Bethany.

J.T. Yes; there was not a man like him in the whole world, and yet he is never said to have spoken.

R.R. Does he in that way become the special attack of the enemy -- they sought to kill Lazarus?

J.T. Yes, that shows what a testimony he was. And then there is what he was to the Lord. "Jesus ... came to Bethany where was the dead man Lazarus, whom Jesus raised from among the dead".

T.T. Do you think the Lord sometimes puts one or two brothers or sisters through discipline to help the whole gathering to this end?

J.T. I am sure He does. That is how gatherings are helped by the principle of leadership. Chapter 11 is that one man dies for the people; that is the principle, so that this condition existed through Lazarus' death.

W.S.F. Would you say a word as to how the principle of Lazarus would apply today?

J.T. It refers to the power of life. It may be in a brother or in a sister; it is an element in the gathering. It may be very widespread or it may be only one in the gathering; but whether it be one or many, it is an element. Sisters do not speak in the meetings -- they are obliged to keep silent; but that does not mean that they have not an influence, but the very opposite. They have a profound influence if they are spiritual; God provides for us in this way.

W.S.S. All this has to do with the Lord's leading?

J.T. Yes. The Lord, knowing these conditions at Bethany, led His disciples to that spot. That is a pattern. He led them to that spot, and that is what He has been doing ever since -- leading His people to where love is known to be. A risen man represents spiritual nobility,

the nobility of the sons. "Lazarus was one of those" -- he is a type.

Ques. Did you say nobility? We sometimes sing, 'Poor and feeble though we be'.

J.T. That will not do for heaven or for the assembly. It is quite right to feel that personally, but "as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God", (Romans 8:14). Those who went up to the mount with Moses (Exodus 24) are called "nobles". That, I think, is what Lazarus represents.

T.T. Do you think that these conditions which are pleasing to the Lord would be supplied by one or two, if one or two were in the good of these things?

J.T. Yes, they could; but the idea is that the place is characterised by love; that is the idea of the local assembly, and that is what Bethany was. You have the kind of people that sat at table, the service in Martha, but Mary is the one the Holy Spirit had specially in mind, because it is mentioned that "it was the Mary who anointed the Lord", and so you have the three features -- dignity, service, and worship -- in the company at Bethany.

J.I. Do you think we must be risen with Christ to appreciate these Bethany conditions?

J.T. Yes; it is Colossians. The Lord knew the history of the place, and hence He led them out as far as Bethany; and then He lifted up His hands and blessed them. He might have blessed them in Jerusalem, but He blessed them in that place.

J.E. Is the blessing connected with the Spirit in that way?

J.T. The fulness of it would mean the gift of the Spirit. But the point here is that the blessing is given in that place, and that then, as He is blessing them, He is carried up into heaven. You are impressed with what heaven thinks of Christ, because after all heaven must have the last word; it has the best judgment, and so what heaven thinks of Christ comes into view.

Ques. Does not Bethany form a link with heaven in that way?

J.T. Yes; heaven now comes into view. We are not told what agency is employed to do that, but the fact is stated that He "was carried up into heaven"; so that you are impressed with what is done. It is part of the education of the assembly that it should be a reflection of what is in heaven, and you begin by seeing what heaven thinks of Christ.

J.L. I was thinking that perhaps the conditions of John's gospel would come in after the conditions of Luke's gospel, that is, that in Luke the Lord would lead out of certain circumstances, but in John He would lead by the Spirit into other circumstances?

J.T. Yes, in John we reach association with Christ in heavenly relationships.

A.G. What is in your mind as regards the leading of the Spirit?

J.T. The leading of the Spirit has reference to "the land", as I said, in the types. It opens out in Romans 8:14, "as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God". The Spirit of God is now in your movements. It is not simply that I am alive, but I am moving in relationship with God. A son moves in the sense of his relationship with God, and in relation to God as his Father, so that the evidence of the Spirit in a believer is that he cries, Abba, Father. That is a son. My voice, my words, indicate that I have the Spirit of God. I speak to the Father; I speak to God as Father.

T.T. What is the thought of the Spirit coming at Jerusalem and not at Bethany? They returned to Jerusalem, and it was there that the Spirit was given.

J.T. In Acts the disciples returned from the mount of Olives -- the suggestion is that they were already moving in a spiritual way; they go, not to the temple, as in the end of Luke, but to the upper room. They return to the city, but go to the upper room, which is, I think, an indication

that they were, so to speak, led by the Spirit, because in that upper room you have, in principle, the assembly. The idea of the upper room is moral elevation, and the Holy Spirit leads in that direction. They did not go to the temple; they went to the upper room. They knew what to do instinctively, and then the mention of the people that are there has its own meaning. The Holy Spirit leads us in connection with persons who have a known reputation as loving Christ. Bethany was a place of love, known to be that; now heaven is a question of persons; the assembly is a question of persons -- persons of spiritual nobility.

J.I. Would the upper room answer to Bethany?

J.T. It goes beyond Bethany; it goes more into Ephesians, the great spiritual area opened up for us and into which the Spirit leads us.

J.I. Would you say that they take Bethany impressions with them?

J.T. Yes, they do; Bethany and Olivet are closely connected geographically and spiritually.

J.I. Why is Bethany omitted in Acts?

J.T. According to Luke, they went into the city from Bethany and were daily in the temple; they were governed there by remnant instincts, and they were a contribution to the nation in grace. It was a wonderful thing that the true Aaronic priesthood was there in those men, and available to Israel if they were ready to receive them; but Acts has the assembly in view, hence Bethany is not mentioned, but the mount of Olives is, because that is the Spirit, and that is what the assembly needs. The recognition of the Spirit takes one away altogether from Jerusalem and the temple, from the Jewish system, to the upper room. It leads away from all accredited religion on earth into an inconspicuous place, but into a place of moral elevation, where heaven is represented.

A.G. Would the result of the leading of the Spirit be that we learn the full liberty of sonship?

J.T. Yes, and as sons we are outside of the realm of accredited religion on earth.

J.W. They were beholding Him, and as they were gazing into heaven He is spoken of by the "two men" as "this same Jesus".

J.T. Yes; stress is laid on what they saw; it is educative, so that we may understand from this passage how He went up. His being carried up into heaven is a tribute to His person; in this passage it is how He went up -- "the manner" of it.

J.W. That would secure personality in them.

J.T. It would, and show them the way into heaven. If I am to be led by the Holy Spirit I must have some idea of the way into heaven. I am not only living, like Lazarus, but I am heavenly; I know the way in, I have seen Him going in, and He is coming out just in that way, showing that it is heaven's way.

A.G. What is the manner?

J.T. It is a spiritual manner. If I could have conversed with those disciples, they would have told me what they saw. Christianity is largely the result of impressions, and the impressions that were conveyed by Christ when here, and conveyed as He went up, are retained. The Holy Spirit retains them, so that christianity is a heavenly thing, impregnated with these impressions. If I saw the Lord go up I would be impressed, and I would pass on the impression. The assembly becomes enriched by these impressions. You have got something if you have an impression; it is something that is there. You may not perhaps be able to put it into words, but the impression itself is wealth. We have here the secret of going into heaven. "This Jesus who has been taken up from you into heaven, shall thus come in the manner in which ye have beheld him going into heaven". That impression remains here; it is part of the wealth of the assembly.

Ques. Is there any special thought in "this same Jesus"?

J.T. There is not another, and there will be no change in Him. It makes everything so real to you. The Lord is acting Himself. Luke makes much of that -- "I myself".

Rem. I was thinking of Paul speaking of the rapture; he says "the Lord Himself", (1 Thessalonians 4:16).

J.T. What a thing it is to have impressions of Christ! What the three disciples got on the mount of transfiguration was for the church. Peter says, "Having been eyewitnesses of his majesty" (2 Peter 1:16), he never lost that impression. It was for the church, and so every spiritual impression one receives is for the wealth of the church.

S.B. We need not that any man teach us, we are taught by the Spirit. It is exceedingly precious that we are taught by "the unction", (1 John 2:27).

J.T. When they came into the upper room, they came into a gathering of people of spiritual history; these all had impressions of Christ.

Ques. Is that why the names are given?

J.T. Yes. Take Mary herself, "the mother of Jesus"; that is how she is mentioned here; she had impressions of Jesus in that relation. Who could speak of Jesus like Mary? She could speak of Jesus as a Babe, and as in His youth -- before He came out in public ministry. You can see the wealth that lay in that woman as she sat in that upper room. "His brethren" were present also. Latent wealth was there, and when the Holy Spirit came it was distributed. Paul would converse with Peter as to Peter's impressions; how much Peter could tell him! "I remained with him fifteen days", (Galatians 1:18). He went up to Jerusalem specially to see Peter; he knew that Peter had impressions of Jesus that no one else had. These impressions are all carried forward in the assembly. Acts is a book of impressions that were to be distributed and retained here in the church as wealth.

Ques. Is the beholding the same as comprehending with all saints what is the breadth and length and height?

J.T. Just so; you cannot take it all in, but you get a view of the thing, and an impression.

E.R. Did the queen of Sheba get an impression when she saw the ascent of Solomon?

J.T. Yes; she would never forget what she thus saw.

Ques. This acted upon in a city would make room for the Holy Spirit in a wonderful way?

J.T. Yes, it would. The leading of the Spirit is of the sons. The Sons have relation to the Father; brethren have relation to Christ. That is what should characterise us when we are properly in assembly; it is the place of sons, and how the sons move; they are led by the Spirit. It is a question of the promptings of the Spirit in us, and our movements are indicative of that.

A.G. In addition to the personalities you mention, it also states "and the women". Why does it specially mention the women?

J.T. I think they would be the reserve in spirituality. I do not believe you could properly have an assembly in the Corinthian sense without women; the divine thought is that women should be there. Luke 8 brings in the composition of the assembly; that is, the man who had the demons is sitting and clothed and in his right mind; that is the intelligence that belongs to the assembly. And then the woman who was healed by the Lord; she has to own everything outwardly; there is transparency. Spirituality in the assembly is marked by transparency. The Lord makes her tell everything openly. She would have secreted the thing, but the assembly is not to be marked by secrets as regards those who compose it. The mystery is as regards the world, but within everything is to be open and transparent, so that she has to tell out "all the truth". Then the girl of twelve, Jairus's daughter, represents the freshness of life -- the new man. We have these three essential features of the assembly -- intelligence and spiritual power; transparency; and fresh young life.

Ques. Would you say that it is the privilege of every member of the company to receive impressions of the Lord?

J.T. It is, and I think that is the reason why 1 Corinthians brings in so many appearings of Christ, because that is where they were defective at Corinth; they were not rich subjectively. They were rich in gift and knowledge and all that, but they were not rich subjectively; they were not furnished with a wealth of impressions of Christ. In chapter 15 the apostle brings in that the Lord appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve, and then to above five hundred brethren as the result of that wonderful occasion when the Lord was seen of them at one time! Paul says, "of whom the most remain until now, but some also have fallen asleep", (verse 6). I gather from that that he knew where they were. Paul also had his own appearings and consequent impressions. A glorified Christ had appeared to him. Besides, he had been in the third heaven.

Ques. Would you say that whatever impressions of Christ there are in a locality, unless there are the Bethany conditions they cannot be set forth?

J.T. No; you have perhaps to keep them to yourself. The impressions are there. Paul specially represents the ability to keep an impression. What he saw "fourteen years" (2 Corinthians 12:2) before he had apparently never spoken of -- as far as we know from scripture, but it was there in his soul, and we may depend upon it that Paul's ministry during those fourteen years was affected by that impression.

W.S.S. All that he had to say at Corinth in regard to assembly order had the spiritual side of things in view, and their entering into it.

J.T. Yes; and his heart was full, but he could not go beyond Christ and Him crucified, for they could not take in "the hidden wisdom", (1 Corinthians 2:7).

I.R. If every hard question was answered in His presence, we should be able to enjoy Bethany conditions?

J.T. The answering of enigmas makes room for impressions; thus the queen of Sheba was affected by what she saw.

R.E. And the impressions are what are of value to the assembly.

J.T. Yes. Each one of those you get in Acts 1 is relative one to the other; they are separate individuals, but they are put together, fitted in. What a delightful thing it would have been to go there and have a little talk with Peter! How much he could tell you! And then each of the apostles had his own distinctive impression of Christ. Then women are there, and the Lord's mother, and His brethren, as we said. The brethren of the Lord could tell you things even that Mary could not.

W.S.S. It would correspond in the spirit of it to Psalm 133 -- "there the Lord commanded the blessing".

T.T. They were 'staying' there. Would that suggest that this is the proper place for impressions?

J.T. It means that they were not transitory. It is the idea of a local company; they stayed in the place. This thought of the Spirit's leading takes the sons outside the realm of accredited religion and what is accepted in this world. The sons of God are outside of all that, outside in obscurity.

Ques. In the first scripture they continued in the temple, and in Acts they were in the upper room, continuing with one accord in prayer and supplication with the women and Mary and His brethren?

J.T. Yes, in the upper room. The passage in the gospel presents grace, what God would do for Israel, "beginning at Jerusalem". The preaching has to begin there; it is God's contribution to the city and the temple, but Israel was not ready for it. But Acts has the assembly in view, as I said.

Ques. Why is it that at the end of chapter 2 they are continuing in the temple again?

J.T. That comes back to what we have in Luke; God is graciously waiting on Israel, placing in Jerusalem this wonderful testimony, the presence of the Spirit in manifest power.

CONDITIONS FOR A DIVINE VISITATION

Mark 6:48, Genesis 17:22 - 27; Genesis 18:1 - 5,33

These scriptures treat of divine movement having a certain end in view, and I refer to them not exactly because of that end, or indeed because they speak of divine movement in itself, but rather of the possibility alluded to in the first passage, of the Lord passing us by. That is a touch in Mark's record of this occurrence. It is also recorded by others, but he alone mentions that the Lord in walking on the water "would have passed by them". No doubt in the history of the assembly, or of the testimony on earth, there has been much of this passing by. We have but an indication here of all that has now become history. It is therefore a warning to us, while incidentally indicating that the Lord is not at all stopped because of the necessity of passing any of us by: He goes on. It comes out very prominently in the history of the gospels, that He goes on -- no circumstance can hinder Him. "He passing through the midst of them", we are told in one case, "went his way", (Luke 4:30). So that He goes on, but He takes with Him certain according to His choice. This evangelist makes much of the selection He made; but the selection is not all, nor is the training all, for prior to this He had had them on the mountain "that they might be with him, and that he might send them to preach", (Mark 3:14). There was much instruction by way of word and example. They had themselves proved their efficiency as ministers, and yet He would have passed them by; not that He in result intended to do so, for the sequel shows that they were not to be passed by. The Lord will not pass by any of us without exercising every possible means of help and recovery, for no one is as gracious as He. The fact

that He did not pass them by involves other things, but that He would have done so is the warning.

The passage goes on to tell us that their hearts were hardened (verse 52). They were toiling in rowing, but toiling is not everything. I might journey from here to the Antipodes and toil for months or years, but it would not be everything; it might not be anything; it might not be sufficient to attract the Lord's attention. So here, they were toiling in rowing, and the wind was contrary to them. But then we are told that "their heart was hardened", in spite of the fact that they were working hard. They had not seen the point in the feeding of the five thousand; they had not taken into their souls the import of that marvellous service of Christ. They had some five loaves and a few fishes, but He had even to put it to them to go and see what they had; "Go and see", He says, as if they did not know. Well, this is how matters stood, and He would have passed them by. Was it for nothing? Not at all. The most honoured of servants were in that boat, the most effective ones; how much we owe them who can say? But He would have passed them by.

What a lesson for them! Mark understood what the Lord meant by this incident when he wrote this account; he understood how servants, or saints, may be in such a state, notwithstanding that they are, so to speak, toiling in rowing, that they may be passed by -- for the Lord knows what is going on underneath. In the book of Judges it is said that God raised up judges. It is a book of decline. The underlying state of the people is disclosed in the last few chapters. The interventions of God are in the early chapters. It says when God raised up a judge He was with the judge, but when the judge was removed the people sinned, and sinned "more than their fathers" (Judges 2:19), so that it was continual decline. After each judge died, things became worse than ever; it is very solemn. So that the Lord is not looking on the outward thing, but at the inner state of things, at what is

going on underneath. There may be full meetings and fresh ministry, but that is not all; the Lord is looking at what is below. So here, He knew that in that boatful of men there was a hardened state; that they had not been affected by the most marvellous expression of grace, for look at what had happened. As the Lord takes up a few loaves and fishes, He lifts His eyes to heaven, blesses them, hands them to His disciples to give to the five thousand people, and they are filled. We never had anything like that! I am not despising what God is doing today; but though the most marvellous thing had happened; yet their hearts were hardened, when they should have been most softened and impressionable. With hardened hearts they were toiling in rowing and the wind was contrary to them, and He would have passed them by.

Now, in brief, I want to show the contrast to this. I do not go into the detail of the chapter; I wish to show the contrast, from these other scriptures, in Abraham. What you observe in the first passage in Genesis 17 is that God went up from Abraham. We talk much about going to heaven, and we ought to, for we are going there, but one wonders how much conception we have of going up. The point made in Acts 1 is that they beheld the Lord as He went up. That is not mentioned for nothing. Attention is called to what they beheld. So it reads, "they beholding him". Then the two men say to them, "This Jesus who has been taken up from you into heaven, shall thus come in the manner in which ye have beheld him going into heaven", (Acts 1:11). Did you ever stop to picture in your mind, spiritually, what that movement was? It is a sort of pattern of what is going to happen -- the idea of going up. "This Jesus who has been taken up from you into heaven, shall thus come in the manner in which ye have beheld him going into heaven"; not "as he went up", but 'as ye have seen him go up', that is the point which is to be impressed upon us. So here you see God went up from Abraham. Think of the importance

of Abraham to heaven as it looked on at that transaction! What a man Abraham was in the eyes of the heavenly companies!

But what I want to point out is that God "left off talking to him". When you break off a conversation, it does not necessarily mean that you have finished, but often that you intend to resume it, and that is how the thing is put here. God had commanded Abraham that he and his house should be circumcised, which implies that the flesh profits nothing; and God made a covenant with him on these lines, and He left off talking to him. But that is not the end of the matter; there is something to follow. Now what is Abraham to do? What has he in his mind? Jehovah went up, as if He were to say to Abraham, 'I am leaving you to yourself; I am going up and you are to be here'. Now that is the position today. Christ is in heaven; He has been seen going into heaven and He is coming back, and the interval in which we are is a marvellous period of time, in which the church is called out. How called out? On the principle of obedience, for what is the church if it cannot be faithful in the absence of Christ? Of the virtuous woman in Proverbs 31:11 it is said, "The heart of her husband confideth in her". It is therefore a question of obedience and trustworthiness, and so those who heard the two men speak in Acts 1, who saw Him go up, went back into the city; they went to the upper room. That shows that they are in accord in their walk here with what they had seen. It would convey to us that there is not to be any outward religious show, for it is a faith period. He went up into heaven, but He was received in a cloud out of their sight. "A cloud received him out of their sight", and so it is now a question of faith. It is a time of obscurity, and not of Babylonish show. The whole fabric of modern christendom is show; it has been Babylonish from the first century. But faith is the principle today, and that involves that one is out of sight of men as to one's glory,

as to one's place with God. Of course there is testimony, but the principle of faith is the negation of outward show, so they went to the upper room.

And then throughout the Acts one great feature is obedience. God gives the Spirit to those who obey Christ. Let no one talk about having part in the church apart from obedience. No one has the Holy Spirit apart from obedience; "if ye love me, keep my commandments", the Lord says, (John 14:15). The Spirit is given on the principle of obedience, for God does not offer His gift to unappreciative people. A principle underlying the gift is that you appreciate it, and this marks the church. Thus here, God has gone up, and Abraham is left, and what does he do? He circumcises to the fullest extent, according to the commandment of God, in complete disregard of age: Ishmael was thirteen years old, and Abraham ninety-nine. The thing has to be applied without modification. God loves obedience. You can understand, therefore, why He "left off". He would give His servant an opportunity of proving his love, and he proved it fully, and hence the detail of circumcision here, which you can scarcely find anywhere else on this subject.

Well, now he is sitting at the tent door by the oaks of Mamre, in the heat of the day. He is not governed by the flesh; if he were, he would not be in the tent door when it was hot, he would be seeking repose in a "cool" place, like Eglon, king of Moab; but he is alert, he is, so to speak, walking "not after the flesh, but after the Spirit", for that is the spiritual counterpart of circumcision. Circumcision is the negation of the flesh, and the Holy Spirit is power in the believer to do the will of God. Abraham is found alert, sitting in the heat of the day at the tent door, and three men stood by him. It is not the Lord now by Himself; He has got company; it is heaven, as I might say, brought down within Abraham's range; a most touching scene; three men, and they are "standing near him". They are not passing him by; they are

standing there. It is beautiful, as God's recognition of the believer's obedience to His word, our obedience when He is not looking at us, so to speak. He has gone up, and we are here. The test is, what am I doing when I am alone, or not under surveillance; what I do, not only publicly, but secretly? God greatly values obedience in such circumstances. He was pleased as He saw Abraham carrying out His commandment to the letter. The same day he was circumcised, Ishmael was circumcised, and all in his house, from the eldest to the youngest. What a day for heaven! We have to look at things from God's point of view as to secret obedience, what I do as the outcome of love to the Lord. "He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him", (John 14:21). That is the point here, in these three men standing there. Now you can understand that the previous conversation was only broken off. It was to be resumed in the most favourable circumstances for Abraham. There are no commandments now. Abraham takes all the initiative, and God allows him to do so. He is not passing him by. Abraham says, in effect, 'You are passing on, but you have not passed me by; after you are refreshed you will pass on'. That was the fact; God was going on, but He stopped on the way and stood near to Abraham. I do not know how long it took Abraham to get the kid and kill it and prepare it and the thick milk, but it must have been a considerable time, and God stood there all that time; the three men stood there under the tree. It is most affecting. It is written to show us, beloved brethren, that divine love recognises in us a response in the way of obedience. Morally, I suppose, the greatest thing in man is obedience; it is the evidence of love in a contrary scene.

Well now, this is, as we can see, a wonderful time; it was not simply that the three men came and took a

repast and were refreshed, but God is pleased with what happened. And now He says, "Where is Sarah thy wife?" as if that were an outcome of the visit; ostensibly it was not part of the programme, for God was on another errand altogether; He was going down to Sodom, for He says He had come down to see what was going on in that place -- but He did not pass Abraham. Thus God treats as 'friends' those who, as loving Him, keep His commandments. It looks as if it were incidentally, but He would not pass by Abraham. He says, 'You have passed on to your servant; I want to send you forward refreshed'. It is wonderful that God accepts from His people such a service. As they were going on, Abraham conducted them -- it says "them" -- that is, all three of them. God allows Himself to be conducted on His way by the obedient man here: it is wonderful. Now they say, "Where is Sarah thy wife?" Jehovah has something of importance to say about Sarah: Isaac is to come; this all comes out. We speak about the meetings and of having blessed times -- note this example, for it is as if all this comes out impromptu. He was going somewhere else, but all this comes out. He inquires, "Where is Sarah thy wife?" Well, she is there, but she makes a poor show; nevertheless the purpose of God towards her must come out at this time. It had already been told to Abraham, but now it is emphasised at this meeting. The outcome of the occasion is that Isaac is announced, but Sarah laughs. She denies it, but God says, "but thou didst laugh"; He corrected her.

But this is not all; it says, "Abraham remained yet standing before Jehovah". The men went on to Sodom, but Abraham stood yet before Jehovah, and the two men went on, and a further thing came out, for the Lord said, "Shall I hide from Abraham what I am doing?" as if the heart of the blessed God is drawn out towards us as we answer to His mind. This is simply a suggestion of what meetings may be, of what the assembly may be as

conditions warrant it, of what God is, what Christ is to it. We should have some idea, from Jesus, what God is like -- His manner, His feelings, His affections -- what He can be amongst us. So here He says, "Shall I hide from Abraham what I am doing?" Now we are going to have a disclosure, a word, as we speak of it. Some people rather disparage a word in the assembly. I have known places where they did not even take their Bibles to the assembly meetings. It is God's assembly, and He speaks in it. "Shall I hide from Abraham what I am doing?" God was going to destroy Sodom. He had told Abraham about Isaac coming -- the incoming of Christ typically. The world is to be replaced by Christ; the world has to go in order to make room for Christ in the assembly. So Christ is announced typically, and the world has to go. Abraham will command his children and his household after him; he is not only obedient himself, he will be concerned that his children are obedient; as he passes away he wants his place occupied by those who are obedient. How important is this principle, as the older brethren go, and for those of us who have children, that we are to command our children and our houses after us! Sodom is to be destroyed, but Abraham has the wonderful privilege of knowing what God was going to do, and of intercession for the doomed city. What a man he was! He drew near to Jehovah: that is the idea; he is a priest. "Let us draw near" -- that is the point in Hebrews 10. It is right to talk about the holiest, but the point is to draw near to God; that is what Abraham did, he drew near to God, and God heard him, and says, "I will spare". Abraham begins with the possibility of fifty righteous in Sodom, and went to ten; but God would spare the city "for ten's sake". God thus owned him as a priest. You see, beloved, how things are in the assembly and how simple we should be. The more spiritual we are, the freer and easier we are in the assembly; there is no legality, but no fleshly licence; there is the freedom which

the Spirit gives, so that what appears here is seen. Abraham intercedes, and then it says that God left Abraham. He does not go up this time; verse 33 says, "And Jehovah went away when he had ended speaking to Abraham; and Abraham returned to his place". Now you see He waits until the conversation is finished. He did not leave off this time; that is to say, it gives what you might call the end of the meeting. He had finished talking with Abraham, and He did not finish until Abraham finished. That is the mutuality of things; it is the very essence of simplicity here. Abraham is speaking with God as a friend, for he is called God's friend, and we are friends. The Lord says, "I call you not servants ... but I have called you friends" (John 15:15), and so God listens to all he has to say, and He went on His way when He had finished. The destruction of Sodom was the end of that way; He had come for that. We may be thankful for the thought of the judgment of this world, for the Lord says, "Now is the judgment of this world", (John 12:31). The world stands athwart the purpose of God, but God is on His way to deal with it effectively. The smoke went up as the smoke of a furnace, but He remembered Abraham. Abraham went to the very spot where God had spoken to him, and he saw the city in flames. God remembered Abraham, and the intercession of Abraham saved Lot, but the city was destroyed. And so it is that God is on His way, and presently He will cease talking with us; not that I would be fanciful at all, but what I am saying is involved in the truth of the assembly. The time is coming when He will cease talking with us on earth, when the assembly will be taken up, and the world will be destroyed. Its doom is fixed. The godly truly will be delivered out of it, as the godly Jew will be by and by, when the speaking has ceased, but thank God the speaking has not yet ceased.

I have sought, beloved brethren, to dwell on these scriptures so that there may be that underlying state with

us in our localities, which God can see and which delights His eye, and which He honours by standing near us on the occasions which He selects, when He communicates with us and gives us the opportunity of ministering to Him. Thus He does not pass by us. It is very beautiful to see the mutuality here, the mutuality of the three men coming to Abraham, and the mutuality in which they speak to him and open the way for him to serve them, and then the further communications and revelations from God to the patriarch as to a friend.

YOUTHFUL MATURITY

1 John 2:14 - 17; Exodus 33:4, 1 Samuel 25:1 - 9, 14 - 17

In reading these scriptures I had the thought of youthfulness, or more correctly, of youthful maturity, in the continuance of the service of God. God intends to continue. He has gotten the victory in Christ over all that which is opposed, and He gives it to His workmen so that the work should go on -- that we should not do as little as is necessary, but all that is necessary, and more -- that, as said in 1 Corinthians 15:58, we should he "abounding always in the work of the Lord, knowing that your toil is not in vain in the Lord".

Now God moves on on these lines, and for this the principle of youthful maturity is stressed throughout the scriptures. He intends to go on, as I said, and I believe John's ministry is that which at the end underlies continuance. The Lord said of him in a somewhat mysterious way, "If I will that he abide until I come". Peter had said, "Lord, and what of this man?" (John 21:21,22) The Lord's answer implied that there was to be continuance -- continuance in the freshness of life. One would rather continue in freshness than be removed. The presence here of one christian such as John is a testimony to the mind of God in so far that He would have what is living.

And so, in this epistle, John emphasises substance -- substance in the way of life. Hence he begins with "that", referring to Christ. Instead of speaking of Him who was from the beginning, he begins with what implies substance, a thing, and what is to be seen particularly in the young men. They would represent man at his best, and so in this chapter we have the children of the testimony -- not exactly the children of God -- these are dealt with in chapter 3 -- but the children of the testimony, that is to

say, what has been effected by the testimony of God, but presented in a graded way.

In the temple reared up by Solomon there were two pillars; these stood out before the temple so as to be visible to all who approached, as if God would remind those who drew near of what He could do. They are but figures. The height is given of both, as if God would present what He can effect collectively. God impressed any who approached with what He could effect, as if to say, 'If I can do this with one or two or more, I can do it with you', God would thus indicate a sort of standard; He would have this standard in the minds of those who drew near, and if any one did not come up to it, it was not because He had not the means by Him to effect it. He had the means, in the altar, the layer, etc., standing by.

In this epistle we have Christ presented as eternal life: "That which was from the beginning ... which we have seen with our eyes; that which we contemplated ... concerning the word of life ..". God was in this way indicating the standard. The standard He had from the beginning is the standard He has now, and the means of bringing us to it now are what they were then, and so this second chapter presents to us what the testimony could effect in such a person as John the apostle. His thought in writing was that the saints should have fellowship with him, saying, "Our fellowship is indeed with the Father, and with his son Jesus Christ". Then he proceeds to speak about "the message", and in this chapter, as I said, he speaks of his children, which would be in result the children of his testimony, what his testimony had effected; but they are graded, and the Holy Spirit through the apostle touches specially on the young men.

It is under this head that I desire to speak at this time, not simply to the young men, but to all, so that there should be what God would produce, that is, a living, energetic, mature, and yet youthful testimony until the

end. John elsewhere (Revelation 10) shows us the principle on which this ministry is to be continued; he speaks of eating the little book and digesting it. Here he speaks about the word of God abiding in the young men, which is akin to that. In Revelation, the word as entering into the inner parts causes bitterness; that is to say, the person who appropriates the word of God digests it, and feels the effect of it. Now it is on that ground that one is to continue; for the angel says to John, "Thou must prophesy again as to peoples", etc., (Revelation 10:11). No one who serves the Lord in any way would wish his conversion to be the last, and so the way is indicated, that if one feels things with God, if one has spiritual feelings and sympathies, one is qualified to minister 'again'.

Now I want to show, beloved brethren, from the Old Testament how this principle of youthful maturity is developed in the service of God. It first shows itself in instinct, and when I speak of instinct in the types I go to the book of Genesis; it is the great book of instincts. What you find in the book of Genesis is that things are done generally without any specification, and yet what is done conforms to the divine specification when it is given; that is to say, it is on the principle of John's ministry: "I have not written to you because ye do not know the truth, but because ye know it". It is a question of knowing the thing in a spiritually instinctive way, and then knowing it in detail, so that what you know by spiritual instinct is found to agree with what is presented to you in spiritual ministry, so that there can be no disparity between them. There is the principle of reception with intelligence. The "good ground" is one who hears and understands the word, (Matthew 13:23). No teacher can teach a child save the child has the power of reception in an intelligent way, and so it is spiritually. I speak of that because of the importance of cultivating instincts.

And so, in the book of Genesis, you find youthfulness in service. The book is to be regarded generally as a book of old men; Genesis abounds in references to old people. In this world old people grow rather uninteresting, but it is not so with God. You find in the inspired word that age continues in the service of God; age adds to interest rather than takes from it. So in the millennial times, we read of men and women who are very aged, but they are not uninteresting. Nor are they uninterested; they are contemplated as sitting there, and then over against them there are the boys and girls playing in the streets, (Zechariah 8:4,5). It is as if God would set down together the extremes of human life. An old man of that day could tell me something about the Lord Jesus coming out of heaven; he could tell me about the great preparatory work of God in the millennial day; he has been through it; he is full of the most precious things. He is an eyewitness; he is better than a written record. Peter says, as an old man about to put off his tabernacle, "Having been eyewitnesses of his majesty", (2 Peter 1:16). Look at that; he is about to put off his tabernacle, and he is occupied with the majesty of Christ. Who can tell me as much as Peter of the wonders of Christ's ministry on earth?

So in the book of Genesis we have the old men, and they die; but in the midst of a book of old men you have a very young man -- Joseph, seventeen years of age. He is a type in view of what I am saying. Some of you young people here may think it is not for you to take up any responsibility in connection with the things of the Lord. It may be that you have come here to meet other young people, which is quite legitimate, and yet not legitimate if it be merely natural. This meeting is not for natural instincts; it is not a place of natural feelings. It is intended to minister to you spiritually. In Joseph you find a young man of seventeen years feeding the flock, and he is doing it with his brethren. They were not very congenial

companions; they were the sons of Jacob's wives -- the maidservants -- mothers that would not convey a good character to their children, and therefore their company would tend to corrupt this young man, but they did not; he represents the incorruptible element; what is born of God is incorruptible. John says "He that has been begotten of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him". That is Joseph; the others were related to him, his half-brothers; but their conversation was bad, and instead of being corrupted by it he reported it to his father; he knew where to place information of evil, that it might be dealt with, like "those of the house of Chloe", (1 Corinthians 1:11). That is a very fine trait. Right through, Joseph is presented as incorruptible. We read of the incorruptible ornament of a meek and quiet spirit; what a fine ornament that is in sisters! "In the sight of God" it is "of great price", (1 Peter 3:4). Joseph developed that; he stood for it, and so in the book of Genesis you get this youthful feature in this respect, that it is incorruptible. Without it I can never hope to serve God, but with it I shall stand before Pharaoh. Like Jeremiah, "If thou return, then will I bring thee again, thou shalt stand before me: and if thou take forth the precious from the vile, thou shalt be as my mouth", (Jeremiah 15:19). That is the principle of Joseph. He stood before Pharaoh. How old was he? Thirty years. There he is seen as a model of the incorruptible. You say, he was a man of like passions with ourselves, but he represents what a christian is as viewed in the light of the first epistle of John.

Now I proceed to Joshua. Exodus is also a book of old men -- not as old as those in Genesis, but it is a book that emphasises old men in the service, and an old woman too. When Moses and Aaron stood before Pharaoh, Moses is said to have been eighty years of age, and Aaron eighty-three, and Miriam was evidently older. Now these were the three whom God sent 'before' Israel. They were old in divine principles, old in divine attainments; they represent what service requires from the

standpoint of divine culture and preparation; these two things must run together. Joshua in Exodus corresponds with Joseph in Genesis; he is with Moses on the mount. God would thus keep in view this element of youthfulness. In chapter 17 he first appears, and it corresponds with the passage in John. He is a young man; he is in conflict with Amalek. It was a question of the Spirit coming in -- that is to say, of the time in which young believers get the Spirit. The rock was smitten and the waters flowed, and then Amalek came up. Satan attacks you through the flesh at this juncture. I want to show you briefly the circumstances in which Joshua overcame. Moses says to him, "Tomorrow I will stand on the top of the hill with the staff of God in my hand". Young people do not like their elders to direct them, to advise them; but Moses says, I am going up the hill with the staff of God, and you are to be down here; "choose us men, and go out, fight with Amalek". Choose out men for us -- not for yourself; you are not going to be a leader of a party. Able young men often assume that unconsciously. We make special friends, and we do this and that; but Moses does not say, Choose for yourself; he says, Choose for us. You are going to fight for the people of God. We must not be on the line of special friendships; it is destructive of the service of God. "Choose us men", and Joshua did so, but he had to be entirely dependent upon intercession above. He could never overcome one Amalekite without Moses' hands uplifted. It is Moses' hands, not Aaron's, representing the authority of God, but now in priestly intercession. Without this there could be no victory over the Amalekites; but with it a complete victory. Moses is directed to write the occurrence in a book and rehearse it in the ears of Joshua. Typically he was to be established in the fact that the power of Satan in the flesh should be utterly overthrown.

You see in Joshua the first conflict of a young man who was subsequently to become a great leader of Jehovah's

hosts. You see how it began. He began in the recognition of authority, in the recognition of dependence upon another, namely, on Christ. You can never do anything without that.

In the passage I read Joshua is in the midst of extraordinary circumstances; he has had to go "without the camp". We do not like to be in a small meeting; we like big meetings; it is natural. Moses took the tent and pitched it without the camp. Moses was prepared to be in a minority, and Joshua is with him in it. It is a very fine resolve to accept the consequences of faithfulness to the truth. Here it is as if Joshua said, 'I must be with Moses, the man of God, the man who stands for God against the whole camp of Israel. I am going to be with him, and not only am I going to be with him, but I am going to be inside that tent that Moses has pitched outside'. It is an educative time; Joshua is in the making. There are great advantages within; he is learning. There is the camp of Israel in the distance; Moses had pitched the tent outside that, and Joshua was in the tent, identified with the minority. Those who follow the Lord are there. The faithful believer says, 'Be they few or many, these are my society'. "Joshua, ... a young man, departed not from within the tent", we read. As there he would see the glory, for it is said that the pillar of cloud descended and stood at the entrance of the tent. Many of us are very neglectful about meetings; we often miss the very greatest things. We cannot afford to miss divine happenings. Anna "departed not from the temple ... night and day", (Luke 2:37) and she did not miss the greatest event that ever happened there: she was present when "the child Jesus" (verse 27) was brought in by His parents and was in the arms of Simeon. Here Moses entered into the tent, and Jehovah came down to the door and talked with him. Joshua sees Moses thus honoured, Jehovah speaking to him "face to face, as a man speaks with his friend". What a wonderful education for a young man! He gets a

little glimpse of heaven. That is how things ought to be; they are going to be very simple. Moses and Elias were speaking with Jesus on the mount of transfiguration. The great antitype of what is presented in the Pentateuch is Jesus, and there He was, speaking with Moses face to face, as a man speaks with his friend; that is what Joshua could see, a little bit of heaven brought down to the door of the tent in which he dwelt. You see thus how a young man is privileged and formed divinely as he is true to the light vouchsafed even at the cost of outward smallness and reproach. I could say more about Joshua, but I only touch on these two points.

I go on now to Samuel. I wish to speak of David's ten young men. I believe you will admit there is a certain constructive line in what I am bringing before you. We have a man overcoming the wicked one; we have the young man in the tent, the place of privilege; now we have ten young men carrying a message. The last is a question of preaching, and preaching to a man who represents a very uninterested audience. You have to learn to preach to such people. I have no difficulty in preaching the gospel to saints; generally they are the most interested of all. But here is a man who represents a very hostile element; and what are these young men doing? There are ten of them, as I said; they are designated, "David's young men". They are told the tenor of what they should say to Nabal. The gospel may be presented in a million ways, it is such a marvellous subject. How are these young men going to act? Does one of them assert leadership or priority on the way? No; there is not the slightest sign of rivalry in these young men, and yet they are charged with an important message, and it is from David to such a man as Nabal. On the other hand, we cannot think that these young men spoke one by one to him. In scripture a feature of ministry is compression; that is to say, you always convey in what you say that you could say very much more. You cannot exhaust the things of

God -- they are too great. That I can present what I have to say in the smallest compass, and yet leave nothing out that I should say, is what should mark me. The minister of Christ is not merely concerned about words; he is concerned about substance. Here the question is, What is David's mind? "And David's young men came, and spake to Nabal according to all those words in the name of David, and ceased". Now that is what I want to dwell upon -- the ability to stop when you have finished, when you have conveyed your message. As serving in this way, no one should appear before men without the assurance that he has a message. "This is the message that we have heard from him", (1 John 1:5). You have your message, you deliver it, and then stop. That is the principle marking these ten young men. If all of us who serve were to observe that principle in our service, the saints of God would be saved from considerable occasion of trial. The scriptures provide against the saints being wearied either by long addresses or by long prayers. Undue length either in the ministry of the word or prayer is not according to the mind of God. The principle is compression. Of course prayer in an individual way may be unlimited; the Lord spent a night in prayer. As to ministry, the prophets are to speak by two or three, (1 Corinthians 14). These young men speak, and then cease. Surely they are set down here as models.

Now I want to speak about the young man in verse 14. Some adverse thing happens among the people of God; what am I going to do about it? This young man was a keeper of the sheep; he had the advantage of keeping them in the neighbourhood of David and his men. He had been in proximity to David. He hears what Nabal has said, and, in recording it, does not minimise the evil character of Nabal his master. He says, "And he is such a son of Belial, that one cannot speak to him". He has a true judgment of his master, and evidently he is not governed by natural or selfish considerations. He is a

man of courage. That is what is needed in crises amongst us. How am I going to act in a crisis? You say, That is for the old brothers; but this is a young man; it is not a question of gift or experience; it is a question of uprightness, of meeting an impending danger. The matter is serious and must be faced at once, I hear something of this kind; what am I going to do about it? Have a talk with some brother or sister and let it go the round in 'confidence'? No, that is not the way. He goes and places the information where it can be dealt with effectually, and where it was dealt with effectually -- with Abigail, a type of the church. She is a type of the church militant; she becomes allied to David in his military position, and in our localities we have to be militant. We must learn how to act wisely, so as to defeat the constant attacks of Satan. Thus you place information such as we are speaking of where it belongs -- before the brethren, those who are gathering and acting in the light and recognition of Christ and the assembly. We want to know where to place information that is calculated to ward off disaster; this is imperative. This young man places his information with Abigail, who was responsible to act; she takes it up immediately; the crisis is met and dealt with, and the position is saved, God's part in it being secured.

You will see, dear brethren, a constructive line in all this. The apostle John had it in mind when he wrote to the young men, "I have written to you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abides in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one", (1 John 1:14). They are men of the testimony. In view of what we have had before us it is as if he said, 'Be on your guard. You have overcome Amalek; you have been inside the tent; you have delivered your message; now beware of the world; see that you do not hanker after it'. Many a man has refused the world for himself and adapted his children for it, and he has lost them. The young have to be on their guard against the world. "Love not the world, nor the things

in the world. If any one love the world, the love of the Father is not in him ... but he that does the will of God abides for eternity", (verses 15,17). The testimony goes on and you abide for ever; that is the position.

May God help us to keep this clearly in view. If we are not going on, God is going on, and He is going on with those who as in youthful maturity are free from the world and subject to His will.

Pages 66 - 104, "Spiritual Refinement", Readings and Addresses, Lincoln and Oldham, 1939 (Volume 107).

THE IRON DID SWIM

2 Kings 6:1 - 23

J.T. We have important testimony connected with the Jordan in this book; in this chapter we have a collective move towards it. I link this with 2 Corinthians, in the beginning of which the apostle speaks of a great death that he was delivered from; and, in chapter 4, of "always bearing about in the body the dying of Jesus", (verse 10) and "knowing that he who has raised the Lord Jesus shall raise us also with Jesus", (verse 14). Whatever discipline and ministry come to us, unless they incline our hearts in this direction, the effect will soon slip away from us.

In 2 Kings 2:6 we have, in Elijah, the idea of being sent. "Jehovah has sent me to the Jordan", he says, and Elisha would go with him. Then, in chapter 5, we have one being sent there for cleansing. And in chapter 6:1 - 2 the sons of the prophets say to Elisha, "Behold now, the place where we dwell before thee is too strait for us. Let us go, we pray thee, to the Jordan, and take thence every man a beam, and let us make a place there, where we may dwell".

J.McM. Is that the force of the words "We had the sentence of death in ourselves"? (2 Corinthians 1:9).

J.T. Exactly. That marked the apostle in writing the second time to the Corinthians, as if he would incline their hearts, after the ministry of the first letter, towards Jordan. If they are otherwise inclined, the ministry may remain with us for a little while, but it will soon fade.

Rem. The first epistle to the Corinthians suggests cleansing and separating, and the second epistle the truth of this chapter of Kings.

J.T. That is right. If the first epistle were not submitted

to, there could be no further light or progress. This incident properly comes in after Naaman's submission, the second epistle is consequent on their submission to the first. Chapter 7 treats of the effect of the first letter, and in chapter 2:9 he puts them "to the test, if as to everything ye are obedient".

W.S.S. This desire for a larger place would be right.

J.T. Yes. The Holy Spirit shows us how the teaching of the book is becoming effective. Enlargement at Jordan would be spiritual, not worldly.

W.S.S. I was thinking that the apostle desires the enlargement of the Corinthians in the second epistle.

J.T. Yes; "for an answering recompense ... let your heart also expand itself", (chapter 6:13).

H.L. Does the line we have in 2 Kings 5 correspond with the first epistle to the Corinthians and produce this general movement among the saints?

J.T. I think so. Obedience to the first letter laid the basis for the second. The apostle is clearly leading on towards Jordan in the latter.

E.L.M. Would the ministry of the man at the end of 2 Kings 4 awaken desires to know another sphere, so that the cleansing of chapter 5 is felt to be a moral necessity?

J.T. That is a very good suggestion. You allude to the "man from Baal-shalisha". So that chapter 5 opens with a man who, although he was a great man with his master, and had been used of the Lord, was a leper. It is almost like the Corinthians. There were distinguished men among them, but they needed cleansing, (2 Corinthians 7:1). "A great man with his master" and even used of God, as Naaman was, is not necessarily great spiritually, and may need cleansing.

E.L.M. All that has to be faced in our histories.

J.T. That is what I was thinking. There may be certain greatness in service; we may be even used of God, and

yet be leprous, It was the state of things at Corinth. They were boasting in men -- "I am of Paul, and ... I of Apollos", They were reigning as kings, but they were reigning without Paul. We do not want to reign without Paul.

J.McM. Would the acceptance of the truth of the Jordan deliver us from that? Elisha went over with Elijah; and afterwards by himself; and so I may learn to go over Jordan myself.

J.T. I think what we get at the outset is the principle of attraction. Elisha would not leave Elijah. I do not suppose we should ever go over Jordan of ourselves. It is as I apprehend Christ as having annulled death that I accept it. Not only do I know that He has disposed of it, but He attracts me, and I go over Jordan. "If thou hast run with the footmen, and they have wearied thee, then how canst thou contend with horses? and if in the land of peace, wherein thou trustedst, they wearied thee, then how wilt thou do in the swelling of Jordan?" (Jeremiah 12:5). We see here how one is to do in the swelling of Jordan, and we learn it from Elijah. Elijah is a type of Christ going over. The book of Joshua teaches us that, in going over, we are to remain two thousand cubits behind the ark. There is a clear objective. Two thousand cubits is a considerable distance, about three-fifths of a mile. That would mean that there is a clear view -- provided one has good eyesight. If one is short-sighted he may not see it. Peter speaks of those who "cannot see afar off", (2 Peter 1:9).

H.L. What would ensure long sight?

J.T. You get the idea of vision from the men of faith. Take a man like Abraham: "Lift up now thine eyes ..". (Genesis 13:14). There is the idea of looking; that is the power of his vision. "Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it" (John 8:56); and again, "He looked for a city", (Hebrews 11:10). He had great power of vision. It is an element of faith, so that Paul says, "We look not at the things that are seen, but at the things that are not seen" (2 Corinthians 4:18) -- eternal things.

J.McM. Is it connected with the Spirit -- "your young men shall see visions" (Acts 2:17)?

J.T. It is the power of the Spirit. I think that is what is meant in Mark 8, where the Lord gives the blind man the second touch. After the first touch, it says he saw men as trees walking. That is not good sight. If you see men as trees, they appear unduly conspicuous. Then the Lord touched the man again, and he saw all things clearly -- the whole landscape, so to speak. It is not only that I see the brethren; I see the things of God, and see them clearly. Thus we see how to go over Jordan. When the feet of the priests that bare the ark touched the brim of Jordan, the waters were driven back. There was no struggle in the death of Christ. Jordan was driven back as He touched it, (Psalm 114). There is no death like that. That has to be understood; thus Jordan is crossed.

J.T.S. Is the principle of attraction seen in the epistle to the Colossians in the expression "with Christ"?

J.T. That is the thought before us now. Crossing the Jordan is by the power of Christ alone; then it is our death with Him. As to this a clear vision is most important for us. As we reach the article of death, unless we maintain a clear vision, we shall be disturbed. It is the greatest test of faith, whether God will raise the dead. Our hearts are prone to be sceptical as to this. But we face death triumphantly as we have seen the Lord go over. Peter and the disciple whom Jesus loved entered the sepulchre and saw the linen clothes lie. The linen clothes lay as they had been wrapped round the Lord's body, and the napkin was folded in a distinct place by itself. There had been no struggle at all. "The other disciple ... saw and believed" (John 20:8); they would understand later by these facts what the passage of Jordan means. John would never have any fear as to death after having seen how Jesus came out of it.

J.McM. "Prepare you victuals", etc., (Joshua 1:11). Is this ministry to prepare?

J.T. Yes. They were to be prepared. They were to be strengthened by food. It is a question of a spiritual state to face death. They had not gone that way before. Jesus goes first, and goes alone. We have to see how He went through.

W.S.S. I suppose the question of state comes out in the beginning of 2 Corinthians. The apostle and others had the sentence of death in themselves.

J.T. Yes, the apostle had been in the presence of death in a very real way, so that he could speak to the Corinthians as one familiar with it. He could also speak of "God which raiseth the dead: who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver", (2 Corinthians 1:9,10). Now he is bearing about in his body the dying of Jesus, and looking at things not seen.

W.S.S. In the passage we read, there is the desire to dwell at the Jordan?

J.T. I think the teaching of the earlier chapters of this book enables us to desire to move in that direction. What we remarked about Naaman is a very practical thing. He was a great man with his master. Why is it put in that way? In chapter 4:8 you have "a great woman". What marked her was that she housed the prophet. Later she said she dwelt among her own people, having no desire to be spoken of to the king. She wished for no distinction in the world. Following on the woman who sold the oil and paid her debts, living on the rest, this "great woman" is a believer who has come typically to the understanding and appropriation of the Spirit of God as seen in Romans 8. Her greatness would allude to the wealth she had acquired.

But Naaman was great in another sense. He was great with his master on account of military service rendered, Jehovah having given deliverance to Syria through him. Exploits are sure to be found with a man who has gifts. So that chapter 5 refers to a man whom God uses, but he is a leper notwithstanding. No doubt his conscious

greatness somewhat accounted for this, or at least fed the leprosy. Hence he comes to the prophet with his horses and his chariot, and stands at the door of the house of Elisha; he is there in his fancied greatness. What underlies all that is leprosy -- the working of sin, not in gross actions, but in pride.

Rem. Naaman thought he would have support in that position; he thought the prophet should have come out to him (verse 11).

J.T. He is self-occupied. He does not understand that the prophet represents God, and He will not minister to human pride, especially when in one of His people. Naaman was ignorant in his pride, but after his cleansing in Jordan he returned to the man of God -- not now simply to his house, expecting Elisha to come out to him; he stood before him. And now nothing is said of the horses and chariot!

W.S.S. Evidently Naaman would have had no desire to dip in Jordan when he was thinking of himself as a great man.

J.T. Then you will observe how he compares Abana and Pharpar with Jordan. The Holy Spirit doubtless brings that in here to precede chapter 6, that is, to call attention to the meaning of Jordan. There is no river like it.

E.L.M. The man discovered his impotence in the presence of Jordan; he could not hold the axe head. Is there in it a lesson for us of reduction, learning one's smallness and inability?

J.T. I am sure there is. Very little is really learned until death is accepted. Whilst the desire was right to go to Jordan, because there was more room, there was evidently a good deal to be learned. I think the end reached is resurrection. After the axe-head incident you get nothing more about building. When you get the axe head back, you arrive tangibly at resurrection. I think it corresponds with Jacob; he set out from Beer-sheba, but he came back

to Hebron -- typical of "that world, and the resurrection", (Luke 20:35).

J.McM. Does the teaching of the axe head mean recovery in Christ?

J.T. That is the thought, but apprehended by the believer. The iron swims; it is the believer in superiority to death. The man "put out his hand and took it". This is the end reached in the type. We may say it is the believer or servant in the realisation of the power of resurrection.

J.McM. Do we begin to move collectively now?

J.T. I think all that follows in the chapter is to show the sequel to all this -- how the enemy is completely outwitted. It is a question of divinely given intelligence as to the enemy's movements. The Syrians did not come back any more. It is a matter of spiritual warfare, how the man of God can conquer in secret conflict with the enemy. All is based on resurrection.

J.H.T. That is what Paul has in mind when he says, "We are not ignorant of his" (Satan's) "devices", (2 Corinthians 2:11). In the presence of what was in Corinth, the apostle sent Timothy as one who would bring to their remembrance Paul's ways which were in Christ.

J.T. Thus they had Paul's ways which were in Christ in their very midst in Timothy. The idea of going to Jordan is shown, because it really comes to this, that one has to die for one's brethren. A spiritual man is journeying in that direction. So that they had at Corinth in Timothy one who would remind them of Paul's ways as they are in Christ. It was a living representation in a "beloved and faithful child", (1 Corinthians 4:17). Look again at the early part of chapter 6: "The place where we dwell before thee is too strait for us". It is well if the young brethren are dwelling 'before' those who have the mind of God. Here the sons of the prophets were dwelling before Elisha. They wanted a larger place. It is to their credit that they make the suggestion to go to Jordan. A meeting like this

ought to afford something prophetic. That God might speak to us is in view. We enjoy these meetings, but then what do we say afterwards? Do we feel limited spiritually, and seek more room? Here they go on, "Let us go, we pray thee, to the Jordan, and take thence every man a beam, and let us make us a place there, where we may dwell". They are not putting any obligation on the prophet. Very often in a meeting all the obligation is put on the leading brothers, but they are not putting any obligation on him, save that they want his permission to go and his presence with them. There is no idea of an undertaking in independence of their elder and teacher. Each one of them accepts responsibility. Taking a beam implies something onerous.

H.L. There seems to be a difference between the sons of the prophets spoken of earlier, and these.

J.T. Yes, they are very different. These have evidently come under the influence of Elisha and his ministry.

E.L.M. I should like to hear something about carrying the beam.

J.T. It is material for building. Let every one take heed how he builds -- what kind of material he uses.

E.L.M. Does it set forth the moment when you are not content merely with light?

J.T. That is what it means. You want to build, and build at the Jordan. One has no worldly aspirations at all.

J.McM. If we apply it to the church, it is that Christ may be exalted. You want a place for sons to dwell.

J.T. The sons of the prophets say, "Where we may dwell. And he answered, Go ye. And one said, Be content, I pray thee, and go with thy servants". There is no independency of thought. They are dwelling in the presence of the prophet, but they want enlargement, and are ready to take on obligations.

F.B. Was that David's thought, when he said he would not give sleep to his eyelids till he found a habitation for the Lord?

J.T. Yes, only here it is a place for ourselves to dwell. There it is a place for the Lord. But these sons of the prophets want the prophet with them. We want the Lord's company in this movement.

E.L.M. Might the losing of the axe head suggest that we are not to use borrowed tools? Is there not the idea underlying it that we should appropriate the truth for ourselves?

J.T. The movement brings out the defect. The suggestion of such a movement was evidently the work of God. There may be that, but there may be a defect that has to be called attention to. Perhaps if they had moved into the world, the axe head would never have been known to be borrowed. But at Jordan the thing is exposed. It is like a brother giving out what he has been reading. He is doing it uprightly, but he has to learn that he has to get the truth through the acceptance of death. As having taken the axe head out of Jordan, he has it on this principle. The Lord had His eye on this man. He is doing something with a right motive, and He wants to make him a better servant.

R.R. I was wondering about the fact that he confessed that it was borrowed.

J.T. Making the acknowledgement involved his gain. There is permanent gain from an experience like this. The instrument is defective, and it is like the Lord's love to call attention to this. He wants to make us better servants. He uses an exclamation: "Alas, master, and it was borrowed!" It is well to notice these exclamations; they denote feeling.

J.H.T. Do you think a young brother like that would profit by subjection to others who are approved in the service?

J.T. Yes. The household of Stephanas had devoted themselves to the saints for service, and the Corinthians were to be subject to them, (1 Corinthians 16:15). It would seem as if this scripture is intended to lead the younger

men forward and perfect them in their ministry. It says in Mark 7:37, "He hath done all things well". What is in view is to stimulate those in the ministry to good workmanship.

J.H.T. That would be Paul's desire for Timothy: "Till I come, give thyself to reading, to exhortation, to teaching", (1 Timothy 4:13). He was to perfect himself as a workman, and not have a bad instrument.

E.L.M. It was a good thing the axe head did not alight on a fellow-workman. He would have had to flee to the city of refuge.

J.T. That suggests another serious objection to the use of borrowed instruments.

Ques. May we not borrow and make the thing our own, so as to use it? It is not that we should not use what we have heard.

J.T. Surely not, but God has our perfecting in view, and allows things to happen so as to expose to us what hinders us. This builder has an excellent motive, but he has a borrowed axe, and if he does not acknowledge that, he will not be a good workman hereafter. He says, "and it was borrowed!" There are two things -- the axe head fell into the water, and it was borrowed.

E.L.M. The young man would be in a spiritual state at the end of the incident. He put out his hand and took it.

J.T. If this axe had been in the hands of the man to whom it belonged, he would no doubt have known its defect and guarded against what happened. The borrower did not know the instrument. You might say something that was effective; I might say it, and it might not be effective. It is the spiritual setting of the thing that counts. The point is whether I have the thing in my soul in its proper setting.

H.L. Do the words "Alas, master" convey that he was not working according to the truth?

J.T. It is as if he said, Why should this happen to me?

He felt the occurrence. "And the man of God said, Where did it fall? And he showed him the place". That is something to notice -- where it fell.

J.H.T. I was wondering whether that is set right in 2 Corinthians. The apostle speaks of some comparing themselves with themselves, and not being wise; then he says, We do not boast in another man's line of things; and again, that it is not a question of the one who commends himself but whom the Lord commends, (2 Corinthians 10:12 - 18).

J.T. That corresponds with what we are saying.

J.McM. Do we get help from the Lord as we thus own the truth? He says, "Alas, master!" We become thus more efficient. Is the thought that, in learning our lesson, we should go on in the work?

J.T. That is how the matter stands. We arrive at resurrection in this setting. "And he cut down a stick, and cast it in thither; and the iron did swim". It is not a beam that is cut down, but a stick. The iron swims; it is not simply floating. That it comes up proves the power of resurrection, but the iron swimming is a stronger thought. It is energy from within. The believer has propulsion from within; he can move in superiority to the power of death; he can go against the stream.

J.H.T. "The life which I now live ... I live by the faith of the Son of God", (Galatians 2:20).

A.D.D. What does the cutting down of the stick and casting it in refer to?

J.T. It refers to the death of Christ.

J.McM. In the account of Paul's shipwreck it speaks of those who were able to swim.

J.T. If I do not know how to swim, I sink. Floating will not last me long. In floating I am inactive, but swimming I am in power.

E.B.G. Why a stick, and not a beam?

J.T. It is a smaller idea. It would convey what could be conveniently used. It points to Christ as in subjection

here, and so available to God. The stick was cast into the water by Elisha where the iron fell.

E.B.G. Do you connect it with the cross?

J.T. I think it is rather Christ Himself. He went into death as doing the will of God. The stick is diminutive as compared with a "beam" -- wood for construction, and points to the outward smallness in which Christ went into death, but also to the power that was there.

W.L. What does the iron signify?

J.T. The iron suggests the actual condition of man. There was no hope for him unless Christ went into death.

W.S.S. I wondered if you had anything to say as to the manner in which the hosts of the king of Syria were defeated.

J.T. It is a very fine sequel to all this. It shows how the servant of God carried on without any great show. It is a question of spiritual understanding. Another world is opened up in resurrection, and the powers of it are round about those who have the light of God. "The mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha".

W.S.S. It is very helpful to look at it in this way. The king of Syria did not know how he was being defeated.

J.T. We are not to rest in visible numbers, although elsewhere the thousands of Israel are mentioned; it is a question of the power of God. It is overwhelming. "Greater is he that is in you than he that is in the world", (1 John 4:4). Powers invisible to the world are all round the man of God. We are not looking at seen things, but at unseen things; at the same time we are not ignorant of Satan's thoughts, (2 Corinthians 2:11).

J.H.T. We get the same idea in verse 32 of our chapter. Elisha knows the murderous intention of the king. Do you think that, while we should not be ignorant of the enemy's devices, we must be going on with what is positive?

J.T. I think that is the setting of this passage. You are never in any other spirit, you know that you are bound to be successful. What consternation was in the heart of the king of Syria! He warred against Israel, but he did not understand the power he had to do with. The king of Assyria warred against Israel in Hezekiah's day, but the virgin, the daughter of Zion, laughed him to scorn. She understood the principles she was operating on; she was unconquerable.

J.H.T. Her power lay in her virginity.

J.T. The Corinthians were in danger of being conquered because they were not maintaining virgin affections for Christ (compare 2 Corinthians 11:1 - 3).

E.L.M. The spiritual discerns all things, (1 Corinthians 2:15).

J.T. That is what is seen here. The man of God discerns the counsels of the king of Syria. He says, "Beware that thou pass not such a place, for thither the Syrians are come down". It is the man of God that shines in the testimony for Christ. The king of Israel benefits by this. Those who have the light of God now are a benefit to the whole of christendom.

J.McM. Are there the two things, the prophetic ministry and the man of God?

J.T. Yes. The man of God considers wholly for God, and God is with him and imparts His mind to him.

J.McM. Would we be preserved in these days in apprehending this?

J.T. That is what I was thinking. And it is imperative to apprehend resurrection. The weapons of our warfare are not carnal, neither are they borrowed.

Then we have how the wonderful triumph of good over evil is seen. The prophet says, "Set bread and water before them", but the king of Israel goes further, and "prepared a great repast for them". You see how complete the triumph is. The army of the king of Syria is at the command of the king of Israel, and instead of slaying them, he sets a great repast before them, and

sends them away. God gives us the victory; it is the triumph of good over evil.

Rem. It is so different from the first chapter of this book, where the captains of the fifties are consumed. Elisha's ministry was quite different from this.

J.T. The Syrians never came back in bands. It is a great thing to save all the brethren in a party.

Rem. If you can feed them and refresh them, that is the way you secure this.

J.T. "And the bands of Syria came no more into the land of Israel". That is the break-up of that party!

Ques. Have you any thought about the necessity of the young man's eyes being opened to see the chariots of the Lord?

J.T. That is in keeping with what we are saying; it is a lesson for the young men. It is a very good prayer, to ask the Lord to open the eyes of the young men to see the unseen. The young man says, "Alas, my master! how shall we do?" He uses an exclamation, like the man who lost the axe head; he had feelings, but they are feelings of unbelief. He is looking at the enemy.

E.B.G. Reference was made to the elders who sat with the prophets. Would the elders be the cumulative outcome of the series of exercises which have been before us?

J.T. That is no doubt true. They are first mentioned in the book in verse 32, and they are sitting with Elisha in his house.

J.T.S. Would the results of this great victory be seen in the words "Salute one another with a holy kiss" (1 Corinthians 16:20)? There seems in it the suggestion of all the brethren being secured. Not one is lost; we secure one another in affection.

J.T. Just so. Saluting one another would mean that we have mutual respect for each other's dignity. A holy kiss would imply the absence of natural preference.

PROCEDURE IN THE ASSEMBLY

Luke 24:36; John 20:19

J.T. These verses serve by comparison to set out the assembly as seen in 1 Corinthians and in Ephesians. The first scripture says that the Lord stood in their midst; in John 20 it is in the midst. We may perhaps be helped in speaking together of this great subject in its two parts, as indicated in these verses.

H.L. Would the first scripture imply that the Lord came into their circumstances?

J.T. Yes; what they are saying is mentioned. In the midst is unlimited, and would imply the Lord giving effect, by His presence, to the message that He had sent by Mary. The Lord would give effect to the light. As we apprehend Him in the midst, we get the full import of the message -- "Go to my brethren", etc. This is in keeping with Ephesians, and is universal. It involves the spiritual state of the assembly; in the power of the Spirit we are led from what is local to what is universal and eternal.

J.McM. They thought they beheld a spirit, in Luke. There is nothing of that in John.

J.T. That plainly indicates the difference between the two positions. What they were saying would indicate in a general way that they were qualifying to be the assembly in a public way. The two from Emmaus found the eleven and those that were with them gathered together. You do not get that in John, nor do you get what they were saying. Here you do: "The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon". Then the two that had been restored told "what things were done in the way, and how he was known of them in breaking of bread". The Lord having appeared to Simon was an expression of grace.

E.L.M. The breaking of bread stands in relation to the public position?

J.T. That is quite obvious. Grace was to mark it. "Hath appeared to Simon" is grace -- the Lord appearing to one who had sinned so flagrantly. They could not be the assembly of God save as grace is expressed there. The assembly must be the reflection of what God is. There was variety in unity. They found the eleven, which would mean those that were representative; there was authority. The features of Gad (Deuteronomy 33:20,21) would be in the eleven; there would thus be a basis for enlargement. And they were gathered together; that is another feature of the assembly. In John 20 it is "where the disciples were".

J.C. They found the eleven?

J.T. Yes, and the number would mean that there is a broken state of things, but that did not disqualify them; they could go on in spite of it. The basis of their position was moral, which also applies to our own time. The mention of the broken number of the apostles, Peter and the two from Emmaus, points to the dominance of restoring grace. This marks the recovery in these last days. Evidently those, noted in Luke 24, who had erred, are so completely restored that there is no feeling of distance. They are talking about the worst of them; there was not one as bad as Peter. If 'unlearned' or 'unbelievers' came in, they would observe this, and would ask, no doubt, Who is he? What has he done? Why do you say the Lord appeared to him? If Simon were interrogated, he would tell the whole truth; and so an exercised person would say, If the Lord is so gracious to that man, He will be gracious to me. Luke, as emphasising grace, records these facts; thus the public assembly begins as descriptive of the dispensation -- what God is. In Luke the Lord is presented as "the Christ of God", (Luke 9:20). It would encourage anybody that is needing grace. "They returned the same hour". If we had more spiritual vigour, we

should have more readings on Lord's day afternoons. The Lord's day afternoon is the most auspicious time for a Bible reading. We have the advantage of all that enters into the day. If He is made known to us in the breaking of bread, we shall be energetic. At the end of our chapter it is said the disciples "were continually in the temple".

J.McM. Would each one have something to say?

J.T. Each brother ought to be able to contribute something. The eleven and those that were with them were evidently freely engaged in talking about the things of Christ, and those from Emmaus spoke about what had happened in the way. What way? That on which they were going astray. Well, any person who came in under exercise -- who too had been going astray -- would be interested and helped. The grace in Christ that restored them could restore him. I speak in this way because of the importance now of maintaining the principle of grace in our meetings.

H.L. It makes all the difference to our spiritual energy to have known the Lord in the breaking of bread.

J.T. That is how it is put here. Many 'addresses' could not exhaust what "happened on the way". "He expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself". How much enters into that!

E.L.M. Does the breaking of bread open the door for the Lord to manifest Himself?

J.T. That is what is seen here. "He was made known to them in the breaking of bread". That happened in the house, but the Lord had the assembly in mind, and intended to qualify them to have part in it.

E.L.M. He vanished out of their sight. Do we not know something of that?

J.T. That indicates that what He is to us in our houses is to prepare us for the assembly; indeed, His service to us is in view of the assembly. It is a question here of the restoring grace of the Lord, and how that culminates in

our having part in the assembly. It is a question whether I have learned the lesson; if I have, I can take part in the assembly. The assembly is the place of knowledge, where the things of God are known. The glory came in (Exodus 40) when everything was in its place; "as the Lord commanded Moses" appears seven times in verses 19 - 32. This corresponds with the first part of the assembly meeting. It is a question of everything being regulated by the will of the Lord. Then room is made for Him as Head, and as Minister of the sanctuary.

H.L. You were speaking of Exodus as corresponding with this in Luke 24?

J.T. I was speaking of the order that is proper to the assembly. Very much is made in Exodus of the parts of the tabernacle, and that the material itself for the tabernacle was from the people. Every Israelite must be considered. In 1 Chronicles the contributions are almost entirely from David and Solomon. Thus in this book it is what comes in typically through Christ.

Ques. Would you connect Luke with the first part, and John with the second?

J.T. Yes.

E.L.M. The second part is Christ speaking to us.

J.T. Yes; He will impress us with His "unsearchable riches", (Ephesians 3:8). The first part relates to what we have; "have ye here any meat?" (verse 41). Then He ministers what He has. In Chronicles it is the wealth that David provided -- a hundred thousand talents of gold, and a thousand thousand talents of silver -- it is the immensity of the wealth that is in view. That is Ephesians -- what Christ brings in. But first it is, Have you here anything? That is Luke; that is the local position. This passage indicates how we acquire wealth in this respect. Peter would gain by the Lord appearing to him, and the Lord spoke to 'the two' of all the scriptures. Think of the Lord opening out Exodus to them! What a view they would have! Every

experience we have of the Lord in our daily path ought to involve a fresh apprehension of Him; you know Him in a new way, and that is material for the assembly when we come together. There is thus something the Lord can take part in, in our meetings; then He brings in His part. There is the immense wealth of what He brings in. His priestly grace and service appear here also. They needed adjustment. It is almost a certainty in every local meeting that we need adjustment. It is 'Himself'; He is not there representatively. He comes in fully to confirm them in what they had already attained to. The full bearing of what was of God there would become apparent as His presence is rightly apprehended. It is the presence of the Lord that shows you the bearing of the ministry He gives through His servants.

F.I. Is it "I ... will sup with him, and he with me" (Revelation 3:20)?

J.T. Exactly. He came to them, and then they came into His circumstances. He brings us into accord with Himself. Everything is seen in its true bearing when Christ is known in the midst. Coming together in assembly is thus essential for formation and testimony. "These are the words which I spake unto you" (verse 44). He had already spoken these things, but they were not understood. "Then opened he their understanding". All this service enters into the assembly.

In what follows we see that this chapter bears on the whole testimony of the gospel: "That repentance and remission of sin should be preached in his name among all nations", (verse 47). That was in view, so that the local assembly is to be in keeping with the dispensation; it is behind the preaching.

John is more what is inward -- towards God, towards heaven, towards eternity. As already said, in John it is not "in their midst", but "in the midst". The bearing of this is wider -- infinite indeed. It is like the stronghold of Zion, which David took, and built inward. Zion

is the saints taken up in the light of God's sovereign rights.

E.L.M. In Luke you have His hands and feet, in John His hands and side?

J.T. The latter has in view a state of things that is outside the sin question altogether. The hands and feet are quite in keeping with Luke, but you do not have any travelling in heaven; the ark is at rest. Hands will be active there; they are useful for the display of affection, (Song of Songs 2:6). The Lord's side points to the origin of the church, as Eve was taken out of Adam. His death, thus indicated, testifies to His love for the church. One had observed in moving about that there is great disregard of the light that governs the assembly in this twofold way. What belongs to the first part is often carried too far into the second part. Brethren speak to the Lord instead of the Father unduly after the breaking of bread; and often there is speaking to the Father and then to the Lord. There is evidenced in this a want of spiritual intelligence and steadiness. The saints should become accustomed to the heavenly side of the assembly, the side on which headship is known and the wealth of heaven is brought in. The Lord leads towards the Father in the assembly. There we learn how He is with the Father, the bearing of the message sent to the disciples through Mary. Thus if we speak to the Lord as Head, we have the Father before us. After the breaking of bread, the bearing of the assembly is towards heaven. Our place is there. We are raised up together and made to sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ. The One for whom are all things and by whom are all things is bringing many sons to glory. The Father is before us in the assembly. The Son is the Minister of the sanctuary, in which all is for the Father's glory. In 1 Chronicles David provides the material in abundance, but it is the son that is to build. It is "the Son of the Father's love". It is no longer the Lord as such; authority, although never

absent, is not in evidence. The priests could not stand to serve, according to Chronicles, as the glory of Jehovah had filled the house of God. Jehovah (for us the Father) could fill the whole scene. But the saints, as sons, are not shut out. If the Father fills all, it is according to what He is to Christ and to us. He is in the assembly according to His eternal love and counsel. The type fails as to this. The sons are in the glory -- brought to it. We are in the assembly in the relation of sons to the Father, and of brethren to Christ. The ideas of lordship and priesthood would be what is needed because of actual conditions down here. These terms have reference to our position as still down here. If we abstract ourselves from flesh and blood, it is a question of sonship. David built inward -- that means that you reach the eternal thought of God, which is sonship. If we are able to abstract ourselves from all that is of this creation, then the idea of lordship and priesthood drops. David built inward; that is John's line. If you address the Lord after addressing the Father, you are dropping down. And if a word of ministry is given, it is not the end of the meeting. As coming from God in the midst of worship, it should stimulate us to deeper notes. What is needed is the intelligence that accompanies sonship. God is bringing many sons to glory, not priests. We are governed by the light that governs the position.

Rem. The holiest is more in the wilderness and is more individual; you see things there as they are before God. One who goes into the holiest knows how to be before God in the assembly.

J.T. The second part of the assembly is not local at all; it is a spiritual matter, and has the whole assembly in view. It is a question of spiritual power. "The doors being shut". 'The door' would be in keeping with Luke, but in John it is a question of the state of our souls. There is thus room for the Lord to act, and He gives its full bearing to the message through Mary. A meeting is

damaged through a door being left open. After the Supper they sang a hymn and went to the mount of Olives. That would agree with the procedure in the assembly, of which we have been speaking. The mount of Olives is a link with heaven.

SPIRITUAL REFINEMENT

Malachi 3:3,4; Genesis 47:1 - 10; Genesis 48:15 - 20

I am thinking, dear brethren, of refinement. The idea runs through the Scriptures, involving what is "more excellent". There is in natural and spiritual things a great variety in quality, and it is evident that, as in natural things, so in spiritual, quality is of great importance. So we are enjoined "to judge of and approve the things that are more excellent", (Philippians 1:10). Of course we can never hope to do that, save as we begin by the exercise of our senses in discerning between good and evil. One is not fit for christian fellowship unless able to discern between good and evil; but to be able to judge of what is "more excellent" is in advance of this. As in the fellowship of God's Son, we ought to be set for great things, and so we are enjoined to judge of and approve the things that are more excellent. The idea of refinement, as cognate with that of excellency, is prevalent throughout scripture, and we cannot disregard it, or speak ironically about persons of spiritual refinement, because there is such a thing. Indeed, what you get in the house into which the Lord went, according to Matthew 13 is this very thing. He spoke of a 'treasure'. That would mean money, or things of value. But then He speaks also of a 'pearl'. Persons of affluence are not always refined -- sometimes painfully the opposite; but spiritually, wealth and refinement go together.

So the Lord proceeds from the idea of treasure, to what is refined -- that is, a pearl, which would require certain skill and taste to value. Now that conveys exactly the thought of refinement. It alludes to the church, not as appearing in the early chapters of the Acts, but as under Paul. It is Paul's church, as we call it, that the Lord had in His mind in regard to the pearl. It is Paul

who really brings in fully the thought of refinement; he speaks of what is "more excellent"; not that the quality is foreign to Peter or the others, for they were all spiritually refined. Peter indeed speaks of the "excellent glory", (2 Peter 1:17). Think of glory being graded! So that there is excellent glory. Peter is able to use superlatives in this sense, as much as Paul; but as I said, Paul gives us the full thought. The church is that in which you get the full idea of spiritual refinement; and we should not, dear brethren, think of it as something away in the distance, but as within our reach. We read in Isaiah 60:15 of Israel being made "an eternal excellency" -- think of the richness of that expression! And then of such an utterance as the apostle Paul uses in Ephesians 3:21: "To him be glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus unto all generations of the age of ages". There is to be glory in that vessel "unto all generations of the age of ages".

Now that is not to be regarded as something in the distance, but as brought near to us. That was the idea on the mount of transfiguration; the excellent glory was brought down within the range of Peter, James, and John, and there were persons in it who were perfectly at home there. The disciples were not at home within it then, they feared; but at a later date Peter would not fear to enter into that cloud. Moses and Elijah were there, and they were without fear, they were equal to it; and, beloved, God intends to make every one of us equal to the glory. He is going to present us "faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy" -- with exultation, (Jude 24). That is what is before Him, to present us there faultless.

I want to show how that thought was in the mind of Joseph. But in Malachi, you have the process which is involved. If we see the thing possible, then the next thing is to accept the process, for God has His way. He sits "as a refiner and purifier of silver", we are told, chapter 3:3. It

suggests a close watch, not something left for indifferent persons to do, or to be done by machinery -- He does the work Himself. It is a process in regard to one person; He deals with us one by one -- that is God's way. The result, in His mind, is too important to admit of any less attention. He sits Himself as the refiner, and He has a definite end in view. I have no doubt it is that His image should appear in us, for His thought is that we are all to be "conformed to the image of his Son", (Romans 8:29). A moral likeness to God is necessary here, for testimony; but the point in the mind of God is the image of His Son. All excellency is there. This process, therefore, in Malachi, although very exercising, has to be faced. "He shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver; and he will purify the children of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver; and they shall offer unto Jehovah an oblation in righteousness. Then shall the oblation of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto Jehovah", (Malachi 3:3,4).

That is what He has in His mind, and I venture to trace this process of refining in Jacob, because it is in him, of the three great patriarchs, that God intended to show what He could work out. What you see in Abraham is God's call and purpose. They all went through their education as saints and will appear in the future accordingly, but Isaac is typically Christ risen. The whole mind of God is secured infallibly in Christ in resurrection. The purpose of God goes right through to resurrection and glory, in the person of Christ. Added to that is the idea of God working out His thoughts in a practical way down here. This appears in Jacob, and particularly in connection with the number "twelve". God proposed to work out love in this man's posterity. Light is a means to an end; government is a means to an end; but the end itself is love -- that God is love.

So that if there is to be the demonstration of that, the vessels must be entirely subservient to the divine hand, so that they can be manipulated according to the wisdom

of love. God selects for this purpose a man who had four wives, two of them maidservants; there were four mothers of the twelve sons. You may inquire, why should He take up persons in such circumstances? God loves to show what He can do -- His handiwork. I say that as a matter of great importance. However crooked I may be, or whatever my history, God can make something out of me, in spite of it. Thus no one need falter or give up, for God, as beginning a work in us, is not going to give up; He goes on to a finish. So you get the working out of this number twelve in Genesis 29, 30, and 31. We may wonder why the Spirit should have written down what is recorded there, but every line is perfect. God shows there that He can work out His thoughts, in spite of the greatest incongruities arising from the flesh, and Jacob himself is to be the first learner. In fact, he is intended to represent what I am speaking about, and according to the Spirit's record in Hebrews 11:21, he comes out best. "By faith Jacob when dying blessed each of the sons of Joseph, and worshipped on the top of his staff". That is what I apprehend as the result of this process of refining, and I want to show you how it was worked out.

The record is given, so that among many other things we might see this one thought of superiority in Jacob. He is not the one we would have picked out, but God's thoughts are not ours. Leading up to all this, Joseph is born, a very simple incident, if it were merely a matter of recording a birth. But this birth was of moment, and perhaps nobody understood this except Jacob. As soon as Joseph was born he said to Laban, "Send me away, that I may go to my place and to my country", (Genesis 30:25). What he saw in it, the Spirit of God does not say, but evidently he saw something spiritually. Spiritual history is hidden, but the effects are public. The thing itself, the golden thread of divine workmanship, is hidden -- "curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the

earth", (Psalm 139:15). Jacob went, though he waited a while, showing the incubus that would hold him back. Is it not so with many of us? We get a spiritual touch, and other things hinder for the moment, but we come back to it, and move. It is a great matter to come back to it. He left Padan -- a sort of beginning of this history. He saw Christ, in some sense, in Joseph. The confirmation of that is, that here he becomes more and more spiritual. So that when he comes back to Peniel there is a wonderful transaction. It is not an experience singular to Jacob; it is recorded there that we might all understand that God intends to make us more spiritual, because the spiritual touch was added to there. It really began when he became a supplanter. At Peniel he is named Israel -- a spiritual title. Then, as he crossed over to meet his brother, he sends the maidservants and their children on ahead, then Leah and her children, and finally, Joseph and Rachel. Joseph is first now. You say, That is a mere accident. But no, it is a spiritual matter. It means that in some little way you show you have the idea of Christ as being above the natural; and so Jacob put Joseph before Joseph's mother, although he loved Rachel. It is the spiritual superseding the natural: "afterward, that which is spiritual", (1 Corinthians 15:46). He was on a journey from the time he left Beer-sheba, twenty years before -- that was the principle. He met God at Bethel -- a wonderful meeting! God came and stood by him; He was no longer at a distance. Then he resumes his journey; Rachel dies, and he sets up a pillar on her grave. But he is on the way to Hebron; that is the terminus, the end of the spiritual journey. It is a chapter of events -- of deaths and shame; but Isaac is there. The Spirit dwells on the name of the place, as if to instruct us in the spiritual surroundings he reached. The twelve sons are named there. Then you get the generations of Esau, and then of Jacob, but Jacob's generation stops with Joseph; it only names Joseph. It is now a question typically of Christ. Joseph was only

seventeen years old as yet, but he was to become thirty years old, which is another thing. At seventeen years of age, Jacob loved him more than all his sons, because he was the son of his old age. I want you to take note of this old age, not as something jaded, but something valuable, because it is old. That is the thought we should get of Jacob here. Some of us are apt to discredit what is old. This sort of old age is not merely a question of years, but refers to quality: "such an one as Paul the aged" (Philemon 1:9) -- such an one as Jacob. The child of that man in his old age is something.

Before coming to the passages I read, I want you to bear in mind these remarks, because they help if you are to see how God brings us on to refinement, to that which is more excellent. So Joseph, in chapter 47, goes in to Pharaoh. He had already tutored his brothers as to how they were to speak to him. That is another important thing. If we are to be presented, we must be tutored, in order to know what to say, because we must remember it is now, in type, a question of appearing before God. The Lord is concerned that we should appear acceptably. So Joseph instructed them what to say, and then says to Pharaoh, "My father and my brethren, and their sheep and their cattle, and all that they have, are come out of the land of Canaan; and behold, they are in the land of Goshen" (verse 1). It is a question of Joseph identifying himself with his father and eleven brothers and all that was in Goshen. It says Joseph selected five men. It was not any five of the eleven; it was five from the whole -- that is to say, he took account of every one from Reuben down. Shall I take Reuben? That is how he would consider. We are not told the names of those chosen; it was a question of excellency, of the best that was there. The ministry of John is to that end, to bring in the very best. You do not want to be of the six that are left. Not that they are not typically saints -- of course they are, but they are not presented. We do not want to miss the presentation

by the Lord. Joseph selected five out of the whole. They did not hide their occupation, for it was their glory. It was an abomination to the Egyptians to be a shepherd, but Joseph's brethren say, "Thy servants are shepherds, both we, and also our fathers". One of the highest recommendations you can get is to be one who cares for the saints. One might stand up and speak of things that are food, but how to shepherd the saints is another matter. Grace and power are required to shepherd the saints, for in order to shepherd them, you might have to tell them things that might irritate them. It is the sheep that are to be shepherded, not the lambs (compare John 21:15 - 17). If you can keep the sheep right, the lambs will go right. Of course young ones may stray, but I am speaking generally of the saints as a flock. Pharaoh granted the five brethren their request, allowing them to live in Goshen, and if there were active men among them, "make them", he says, "rulers over my cattle". There was something there that was "more excellent" in the judgment of Joseph.

Then the scripture says, "Joseph brought Jacob his father, and set him before Pharaoh". It is presentation to a sovereign. "And Jacob blessed Pharaoh". There is a change here -- Jacob takes the initiative; he does not wait for Pharaoh to do anything, he blesses Pharaoh. He blesses the greatest monarch on earth at that time; officially Pharaoh was greater than Jacob. He was the king, the supreme -- and here is one with no outward greatness, and the first thing he does as before him is to bless the monarch. Think of the moral worth, the moral power, in that old man! All the colleges in the world could not make him what he was. Where did his superiority come from? It came from God, through the process of refining. I do not suppose he presented any great appearance to the court of Pharaoh. One can imagine the courtiers saying, 'Who is that old man?' That would be how the matter stood, but the patriarch

blessed Pharaoh. Think of the greatness acquired as having been in the refining school of God! Pharaoh does not ask Jacob what his occupation was, which indicates a recognition of the greatness that was there. It was the result of his experience with God. He humbly acknowledges he was not like his fathers in respect of age: "The days of the years of my sojourning are a hundred and thirty years ... And Jacob blessed Pharaoh, and went out from before Pharaoh". There was no hiding of any discrepancies, but admitting them all, he is greater than Pharaoh.

Now all that is very valuable as spiritual instruction, but what about Joseph? In the life of Pharaoh there were doubtless many blemishes, in keeping with the lives of monarchs. But here is a man -- Joseph -- with not a record against him, not a blot on his character. As far as scripture goes, he is incorruptible, as we may say; there is no discrepancy in his conduct anywhere; he is unassailable in every respect. Now how will Jacob measure up with him? What will come out when they are brought face to face? In chapter 47 he sends for Joseph; he was not sick yet, he was in a certain vigour, and he instructed Joseph to bury him in Canaan. But in the beginning of chapter 48 it says he was sick, and Joseph comes of himself. So we have Joseph, as you might say, with every advantage; he had with him his two sons, Manasseh and Ephraim. You can understand the father's legitimate pleasure in them. But with all this, is he greater than Jacob? He fails here for the first time. Joseph says, "Not so, my father" -- that was a voice of authority, and, you may depend, every ear in Egypt paid attention when hearing that voice; all save the king bowed to that voice. But here was one who did not; of course he should not, being Joseph's father. I am not referring to this, but to the moral greatness of Jacob, of what was there spiritually. "Not so, my father". If that had been said outside, how all would have paid attention

to it! But Jacob represents spiritual power, and in virtue of this he was greater than Pharaoh, greater than Joseph. According to Hebrews 11, he blessed both the sons of Joseph; he blessed them spiritually, and against the current of the natural feeling in the greatest man on earth next to himself. That is spiritual power. "I know, my son, I know", he says. It were well for Joseph to take that in. He was greater than Joseph as his father, but he was also greater in spiritual power and intelligence.

That is what I had in mind. We come to the full result of refinement in Jacob, and the Spirit of God says he "worshipped on the top of his staff", (Hebrews 11:21). This evidently refers to the experience Jacob had with God -- his staff symbolising it. I have no doubt the quotation of Genesis 47:31 in Hebrews 11 is a spiritual one: Jacob worshipped in the power of the result of his experience with God, when he was about to die. There was power in the man to worship God.

That is the great end in view in all this process in Malachi: "they shall offer unto Jehovah an oblation in righteousness" -- a pleasant oblation. God sits as a refiner of silver, and this is the result He has in view.

ENLARGEMENT

2 Corinthians 6:11 - 18; Deuteronomy 33:20,21

The epistles to the Corinthians are greatly stressed in current ministry, indicating that what is needed chiefly among the people of God is obedience and order. What is needed by us severally is what is found in Romans; that epistle and the two to the Corinthians run together, although the former is not corrective, whereas the latter two are. In the Corinthian epistles, prominence is given to the paternal idea, as over against that of the mother in Galatians. In the former, the apostle says, "Though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel", (1 Corinthians 4:15). To the Galatians he says: "My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you", (Galatians 4:19). Galatians is intended to deliver the people of God from religious bondage and darkness, Corinthians being rather to deliver us from worldliness. It is obvious that the authority of the father is greater than that of the mother, although the mother may have more influence over the children. Galatians contemplates the kind of person that the people of God may be associated with religiously -- Ishmael. Genesis 21 contemplates that Isaac and Ishmael were in the same house -- so far it was the household of faith, the house of Abraham. This marked the Galatians. But unless the bondwoman and her son were cast out, faith would cease. So the apostle, referring to himself from the maternal point of view, urges what scripture says, "Cast out the bondwoman and her son", (Galatians 4:30). This scripture, although primarily a word of Sarah, refers to religious association, which is governed by such a woman as Hagar, i.e. "Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children", (chapter 4:25). All that comes

under the beggarly elements of the world is Hagar, but Sarah is the free woman, corresponding with "Jerusalem above", which is our mother. "Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman", (verse 30). Abraham was to hearken to this word of Sarah. So the apostle proceeds to say that we -- all true believers -- are children of the freewoman, that is, the church viewed as Jerusalem above. The church is morally above the current level of religion, and she is free.

But the letters to Corinth emphasise the paternal side of the truth, as I said. The Corinthians were disorderly children, doing as they would, corresponding with general conditions today among the people of God; independency, strife, and partisanship prevail. For this condition the word of authority, which a father can give, is needed. Of old, God called the attention of His people to Abraham: "Look unto Abraham your father, and unto Sarah that bore you", (Isaiah 51:2). As in natural things, so in spiritual, paternal and maternal features run together. The Corinthian letters present the former authority. The Corinthians were Paul's children, and so he writes with authority, threatening a rod. But he calls them 'Corinthians'; he is not addressing the saints as in heavenly places, or in a universal way; they are viewed locally. It is well to be reminded of our local setting; as a name of a locality is mentioned, I have to think of its peculiarities, and in view of correction, these have to be kept in mind. The Corinthians were amenable to correction. And so the apostle says, "O ye Corinthians, our mouth is open unto you, our heart is enlarged"; his affections are no longer restrained, and so he can speak to them more freely. Those who minister among the people of God know what this means. His first letter had done its work, and he says, "I speak as unto my children, be ye also enlarged". What can be of more value to young believers than a true father? There are not many fathers. The

apostle took advantage of his peculiar position as the instrument through whom they were converted. But it was not this only; he loved them, as he says: "Though the more abundantly I love you, the less I be loved", (2 Corinthians 12:15). He was only waiting for their hearts to be opened, so that his affections might flow towards them as before. "Now for a recompense in the same (I speak as unto my children,) be ye also enlarged". How few there are among the people of God that are being ministered to, who have any sense of recompensing! I am not speaking of what is monetary -- that is a small matter -- but of the sense of obligation. At the outset of his stay in Padan, Jacob served Laban in family affection; afterwards his service was purely mercenary. When he saw Rachel, the daughter of Laban his mother's brother, he went near, and watered the flock. There were other flocks there; he told the owners what to do, but he did not do it; but when he saw Rachel, he served by love. Then he remained a whole month in Laban's house. He is carrying on his service, and Laban says, "Shouldest thou therefore serve me for nought? tell me, what shall thy wages be?" (Genesis 29:15). It was only righteous that he should get something for his service. In the same sense, the apostle had a right as a minister to recompense. But it was a question of response to his love. He says, "I seek not yours, but you" (2 Corinthians 12:14); he was putting on them the obligations of love. How many of you young people feel obligations? I do not mean in a monetary sense, as I said, but spiritually. Do you come to recognise those through whom ministry comes as worthy in this way to be esteemed "very highly in love for their work's sake" (1 Thessalonians 5:12 - 13)? "Be ye also enlarged". He says, "Ye are not straitened in us, but ye are straitened in your own bowels". As soon as you begin to recognise spiritual obligations towards those through whom the ministry comes, you will become enlarged. There will thus be definite committal to the Lord, so that it can be said that you are "married to

another, even to him who is raised from the dead", (Romans 7:4). Laban recognises his obligations to Jacob, and what follows upon that is the marriage of the latter to his daughters.

Worldliness worked at Corinth, as our chapter indicates; I note this, because it creeps in so insidiously. So that, as soon as the apostle speaks of their being enlarged, he says, "Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers". There is nothing whatever in common between the two, and your spiritual prosperity hinges on the maintenance of separation. There is to be no fellowship with unbelievers, or with unrighteousness, whatever form it may take. "Wherefore come out from among them". God said that He would walk among His people, and dwell among them. This is not only when we are together, but also in our everyday relations. He goes into our houses, our businesses; He is walking among us. So He says, "Come out from among them, and be ye separate ... and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, and will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters". It is the Fatherhood of God in relation to our ordinary circumstances. He takes up our cause in times of distress; indeed He is a Father to us in every way, considering for us in every circumstance. God provides for a separated people; they are at certain disadvantages because of their separation from the world, but God's care more than balances this; thus we are maintained in the enjoyment of what is spiritual, and not damaged by the cares of this life. To this end He says, "I will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters". He takes up this relation to us, so that we are protected and cared for as we could not be otherwise.

In the passage in Deuteronomy, Moses takes account of the sons of Jacob in their different features, beginning with Reuben, down to Asher. We have the different features of the blessing, and amongst them that of Gad.

It is of this I wish to speak. Gad answers to 1 and 2 Corinthians, and on this account, among other things, there is the enlargement of Gad, although his name does not signify enlargement. Japheth's name signifies enlargement. You will all remember how the Spirit of God refers to the enlargement of Japheth. When Ham exposed his father, Japheth and Shem took a garment and went backward and covered the nakedness of their father, and then we have the blessing of Noah on his sons. It enters very forcibly into what I am saying. It was a question of respect due to a father. Ham mocked his father; he exposed him. That is, in principle, what the Corinthians were doing. Some of them said of Paul, "His bodily presence is weak, and his speech contemptible", (2 Corinthians 10:10). There was a Canaanitish element among them, and it was on Canaan the curse fell, (Genesis 9:25). Thus the apostle says, "If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha" (1 Corinthians 16:22), which means that he will be cursed when the Lord comes. How solemn that this should be said to a company of christians! The curse of Noah is not a question of black people in Africa; it is Canaan, the son of Ham. Canaan does not mean black; "Ham" means black, but it cannot be shown that all his posterity were so characterised. The curse would refer to the seven nations in the land of Canaan. Five of their kings were hanged upon a tree; the curse of God was upon them. We have Canaan mentioned before we get the curse at all. But I am referring to Japheth; of him Noah says, "God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant", (Genesis 9:27). It was that principle of which the apostle was speaking at Corinth. Enlargement marked the blessing of Japheth. It is the outcome of his respect for his father. The enlargement of Japheth, in the ordering of God, prepared beforehand for the setting up of the church; in the main it is drawn from his family.

I come back to Gad; like Japheth, the instruction

connected with him in this passage enters into the letters to Corinth. "Blessed be he that enlargeth Gad". Why should he be enlarged? Because he bore the feature of regard for authority. "He dwelleth as a lion, and teareth the arm with the crown of the head". That would mean spiritually that he had the courage and strength of a lion. This marks Christ, who is "the lion of the tribe of Judah", (Revelation 5:5). It is a question of government, of power in government, of courage in government; and so he tears the arm with the crown of the head. That is what came out in 1 Corinthians -- the opposing arm and head were dealt with. These have often to be dealt with among the saints. The head refers to natural, mental ability, and the arm the power by which it would prevail. We are apt to rely upon natural ability, but it will fail us in the things of God, and in time will turn to opposition, and this brings in the judgment seen here in Gad.

Then the scripture goes on to say, "And he provided the first part for himself, because there, in a portion of the lawgiver, was he seated; and he came with the heads of the people, he executed the justice of the Lord, and his judgments with Israel". The New Translation reads, "There was reserved the portion of the lawgiver". Gad reserves a portion for the lawgiver. In spite of Paul's severity, those of the spirit of Gad in Corinth would love him. And is it not so? Where there is love for Christ in keeping His commandments, a portion is reserved for the lawgiver. It is a question of the lawgiver, so to speak, in Corinthians, "the law of the house", (Ezekiel 43:12). We need not shrink from it; to those who love Christ it is the perfect law of liberty as governing the assembly down here. If there is no room for the lawgiver in a meeting, it is not honoured of God. People talk about being gathered to the Lord's name, but what about the lawgiver? There is no moral value attached to any meeting in which there is not a portion reserved for the lawgiver. In this way "he provided the first part for himself". It is in considering for

Christ that we serve our own interests best, and if I impose something on others, I must impose it on myself. How can I have weight with my brethren if I am not governed myself by the commandments I seek to enforce? Deborah dwelt under her own palm tree; that is victory over herself. It is thus she had power with her brethren; they came to her for judgment. If one does not rule himself, he is of no value at all in the house of God. As soon as a brother is seen ruling his own spirit, the brethren give him room. It is the enlargement of Gad.

"He came with the heads of the people". He is not a king; he is not like Adonijah; he comes with the heads of the people; he recognises others who are exercising rule. If God has graciously been pleased to give ability to another, it is a matter of community; the wealth of one is the wealth of all; the wisdom and love of one are the wisdom and love of all. He is not envious of the other heads; he is marked by the features of a brother.

Then "He executed the justice of the Lord". How much that is needed! It enters into the care meeting -- that is, where the heads are together. Young brethren may come to this, to learn how to reach a true judgment, which in the assembly is executed. The apostle speaks about the least in the church settling secular matters, showing what any christian may do; as having the Spirit of God, he has, potentially at least, more judicial ability than the Lord Chancellor! Gad comes with the heads of the people; that is the care meeting; they execute justice and judgment in Israel. I am speaking of principles; it is a question of how things are done, and whether justice and judgment in Israel shall prevail, or whether there is to be wrangling, and things are left without anything being accomplished. It is the principle of the thing -- that is to say, whether justice and judgment are executed. The brethren come together, they investigate, they weigh facts, and present things impartially to the assembly, where, according to the wisdom from above,

that is first pure, without partiality and hypocrisy, justice and judgment are executed. What is thus shown in Gad is the ground of the enlargement that is needed, as indicated by the apostle in his letters to the Corinthians.

May God bless His word.

Pages 105 - 197, "The Spirit of Judgment", Readings and an Address, Rochester, U.S.A. 1931. (Volume 108).

THE SPIRIT OF JUDGMENT (1)

Judges 1:1 - 15; Judges 2:1 - 5

W.M. The book of Judges begins with the death of Joshua and ends with the expressed need of a king.

J.T. In this book the best elements available are introduced at the beginning; but chapter 2 shows that Israel grew worse and worse throughout the long period of the rule of the judges. Grace on God's part raised up deliverers from time to time, leading on to the king and therefore to finality, typically, as represented in David. Samuel is the last of the judges, although his service does not come into this book. The New Testament connects the ministry of the judges with him, it says, "till Samuel the prophet", (Acts 13:20). His ministry was prophetic, introducing the king. But he "judged Israel all the days of his life" (1 Samuel 7:15), and was the link between the judges and royalty.

A.F.M. Would you tell us what is in your mind in suggesting this book?

J.T. That we might acquire more of the spirit of judgment.

A.R.S. Judgment in the way of discernment?

J.T. Yes, quite; and administratively too; because the discernment falls to the ground unless I can administer what is required. If I find one is not just right, and I do not administer what is needed for correction, I do not help. Many have discernment, but the thing discerned is not met; for discernment will not in itself help unless I couple it with administration.

J.S. Discernment will not correct unless there is action.

J.T. No. The element of administration must come in.

So you find in Judges, "he went out to war" (chapter 3:10) -- that is, to deal with the evil. So that the element of judgment is an immense thing; without it we cannot be effective in our church relations. There must be discernment first and then administration.

Ques. You would make a difference between our actions and divine interventions?

J.T. Quite. Our actions, based on discernment as in the light, will lead to, or synchronise with divine interventions. If I have discernment and am governed by it, the Lord will be with me and use me in dealing with evil.

A.N.W. The judge arises in response to the cry from the people.

J.T. Yes. God ever regards the genuine cry of His people. He raised up Othniel, but according to what was there morally.

A.F.M. All through this book moral features are in evidence; exercise in the godly is going on.

Rem. Is not that the character of the book? It is moral rather than historical. At the end of it you find things that probably happened at the beginning.

J.T. Exactly. It would be a mistake to assume that the events occurred chronologically. You have, for instance, things brought in here before the action of Caleb and Othniel, that happened after. They are put in because of moral importance, that we might see what God has in mind. I refer particularly to the need of leadership expressed in verse 1. Leadership has a great place with God.

A.N.W. Chapter 1 gives the death of Joshua, but chapter 2 shows what he does before he dies.

Rem. The last incident in the book probably occurred soon after the death of Joshua, but morally it is necessary to close with such a sorrowful picture.

W.M. Do you see an analogy between Judges and present conditions in the assembly?

J.T. I do; and because of this analogy the book was "written for our instruction", (Romans 15:4).

Ques. Would this book of Judges be parallel with 2 Timothy?

J.T. I think so. I hope we shall see first, the good elements; how God brings in these. Because not only are the words inspired, but also the arrangement of the book. The people said, "Which of us shall go up against the Canaanites first, to fight against them?" They put it into God's hands as to who should lead. The book thus begins with the recognition by Israel of God's place amongst them -- that He was King. This was the fact governing the dispensation, and fully maintained by Gideon, but wickedly denied by Abimelech. It is not that the others would not go, for there was no question of holding back; but which should go up first?

J.S. Why is the question of leadership raised?

J.T. It is God's way. Joshua is no longer there and it is a question of God giving a new start; and God's way is through leadership. We have in Christ the great idea of leadership. He is the Leader of our salvation, for example; He is Leader in everything. Their inquiry brings an immediate answer from God.

G.W.H. It was an honest desire on their part to know whom He would choose.

A.F.M. In sovereign selection Judah is taken; it is in line with the end of the book: the need of a king, and David is chosen afterwards.

J.T. Bearing in mind that "our Lord has sprung out of Juda" (Hebrews 7:14), we have an instance here of how Christ was always in the mind of God. He did not move except in relation to Christ. This book, Ruth, and Samuel all go together, leading up to David who represents the kingship of Christ.

A.R.S. Is it not important to be able to discern when the change of leadership comes? We might desire things to go along in an easy way; but that is not God's way.

Joshua has died, and now it is a question of new leadership.

J.T. That is the idea. It makes much of God, and should exercise everybody. It was not a question for some of the children of Israel; the inquiry as to leadership is by all of them. Earlier, Joshua was divinely appointed but not so here; so that the test is great.

A.R.S. What do you make of that -- that the new leader was actually apparent?

J.T. It is the general state of the people. Things here are not on the same level as when Moses died in the plains of Moab; Jordan was in view, Canaan near; typically, the ministry of the Spirit, beginning with the brazen serpent, had been effective. But we are in the presence of decline here. The chapter shows, while speaking about Judah and Simeon and others, that in the main they did not possess -- there was failure. So that I think no leader being appointed had that in view.

Ques. Have you any thought why leadership went from Levi in Moses, and Joseph in Joshua, to Judah here in Othniel?

J.T. It is sovereignty. But leadership culminated in Judah (compare Psalm 78:67 - 72). Christ is in view. The selection of Judah here would remind one who had faith, of the purpose of God prophetically indicated in Genesis 49:9 - 12.

W.M. Christ came of the line of Judah.

A.N.W. Why does the selection of Simeon come in?

J.T. It was by Judah. That brings out the next thing -- the brotherly spirit. Judah represents that; he is the big brother, so to speak; he is big spiritually.

J.S. So that if you make room for Christ in Judah, you make room for the brother.

J.T. Exactly. Simeon's territory was within Judah's territory. This brings out the moral greatness of Judah; he made room for his brother, and was on happy terms with him. Instead of going afield for one to join him in the war, he takes the brother in his own territory.

W.M. "Simeon his brother". God's answer to the question of Israel is very prompt.

J.T. God does not take long to move, when there is real exercise. And there is the promise of deliverance through Judah, in God's answer.

A.R.S. They asked Jehovah. There was a good state. There was, as it were, prayer about it on the part of the whole congregation.

B.T.F. Is there not also the expression of Judah's fellowship?

J.T. If there is the divine selection of Judah, there is in him a brotherly spirit. Because if God makes a selection of you for some service, and you fail of the brotherly spirit, you will discredit Him.

C.B. It says of Judah, "as to thee, thy brethren will praise thee", (Genesis 49:8).

Ques. "He first finds his own brother", (John 1:41). Would that be like Judah and Simeon?

J.T. Quite. That fits in here. God makes a selection; but it is vindicated by the character of the one selected.

F.H.L. Is there any moral leading-up here?

J.T. I do not know whether the people got much gain. They grew worse and worse. This brings out the wonderful faithfulness of God. Their state was evil, and they were going down all the time; so that there was no remedy but a king.

Rem. God says, "I will never break my covenant with you".

J.T. It is the faithfulness of God.

A.F.M. Is there any point in only the tribes in the land being reviewed here, and those on the wilderness side not being mentioned?

J.T. This would mean that failure is reckoned in relation to the greatest privilege accorded, as in Ephesus. The Lord says to the assembly there, "Remember therefore whence thou art fallen", (Revelation 2:5).

The existence of the brotherly spirit is confirmatory

of the divine choice of Judah. As a brother he confirms it here by seeking the co-operation of Simeon, the one inside his own territory. It brings out the character of Judah. Already this had been evidenced in his speaking to Joseph with regard to his father and Benjamin (see Genesis 44). This is most practical as bearing on what I am in my own locality. The element of mutuality comes into view here -- Judah said, "Come up with me into my lot". See what a partnership Simeon is brought into! It has already been indicated that Judah would be successful; he is not selfish about it, but shares with Simeon his brother.

J.S. Would Simeon being within Judah's boundary indicate the divinely appointed way as to boundaries?

J.T. The idea of boundaries comes into this subject, because Simeon was actually inside Judah's territory. The boundaries are named in Joshua; these being irregular are intended to draw out latent love among the saints. They are not on straight lines as in Ezekiel; one brother's share coming inside the territory of another. Therefore we cannot bring natural wisdom into divine boundaries.

There are two things in Proverbs 22 and 23. First, "Remove not the ancient landmark which thy fathers have set" (verse 28); this suggests the result of the work of God in the early brethren. In the next chapter you get, "Remove not the ancient landmark" (verse 10), leaving out reference to fathers. The first implies affection and respect for the fathers. But then the landmark itself is right. What they did is right.

Ques. It says, "And Judah went with Simeon his brother" (verse 17). The brotherly feature is emphasised, is it not?

J.T. Yes. First it says, "And Judah said to Simeon his brother, Come up with me into my lot, and let us fight against the Canaanites, and I likewise will go with thee into thy lot; and Simeon went with him". And then, "And Judah went up; and Jehovah delivered the

Canaanites and the Perizzites into their hand, and they smote them". That is, they share in the thing, and God honours that.

Rem. Then in verse 17 it says, "And Judah went with Simeon his brother, and they slew the Canaanites", they help each other.

E.J.N. There is a perfect showing forth of what brethren are normally; they share together. "A brother is born for adversity", (Proverbs 17:17).

M.D.F. Would you say they had a good start? They made room first for God, and then there is room for the brother.

J.T. That is it. I am sure in our local meetings we could not possibly proceed on any other principle. First we consider for God; we recognise His rights in the place.

Rem. Sovereign selection goes hand in hand with qualifications for that selection.

J.T. I think it does. Only we have examples of failure, as in Jeroboam and Saul. These are a challenge for us. I refer to the fact that you may get certain persons apparently brought forward who become material for the enemy to work on. How solemn! We must recognise divine wisdom in this, for God would expose the flesh in the varied circumstances in which it may be found. In Christ we see what God has selected for His own pleasure. All else is detail, either to foreshadow Christ or to bring Him in prominently. But if God makes a selection, it is for the one selected to justify it.

A.R.S. God's government is worked out through selections such as Jeroboam.

J.T. That is it -- to bring out the bad elements. It is part of God's way to bring out such elements; in such cases we have examples of the flesh in the circumstances given. All this is for our learning, so that we should not be deceived by outward appearances.

A.F.M. God's selection is justified in Othniel, Caleb's son-in-law.

J.T. I think the Spirit of God intends Othniel to convey the full thought of a judge. His service justifies his being selected. If God gives you a gift, He has laid His hand on you. Well, you might rest in that and say, 'Do you not know I have a gift?' But then are you justifying God in your character and ways?

G.W.H. This thought, delineated here, finds full development in David -- the brotherly spirit in sharing the spoils.

Rem. Timothy had known Paul's "teaching" and "conduct" (2 Timothy 3:10).

J.T. Just so. The Lord uses a word about Paul that is suggestive of quality. He says, "This man is an elect vessel to me", (Acts 9:15). If you are going to use a vessel, you are very particular about it. We are to be "sanctified, serviceable to the Master", (2 Timothy 2:21).

Ques. Why is Judah's territory too great for him?

J.T. To bring out what was there. God loves to bring out the brotherly spirit in us; so that He orders our circumstances to this end. If God gives you more than others in your meeting, it is not to glorify you, but to enable you to serve His people. What you have is, in a way, their property; indeed you are this yourself, (compare 1 Corinthians 3:21 - 23). If I have any ability from God, or any commission, it is for the saints, and I must not use it selfishly. Christ shares the inheritance with us. In Him the great principle we are speaking of is seen, and it is to be worked out in detail in us.

Rem. "Wisdom has been justified of all her children", (Luke 7:35). If one is selected and marked with gift, one should justify it.

J.T. I think God would delight in the opening out of the thing, like a flower. Think of the vastness of the opening out of Christ in His people as under God's eye! Christ is to be reflected in us; what is any one of us otherwise?

In this warfare they come in contact with an extraordinary

kind of man, Adoni-Bezek. Having caught him, they cut off his thumbs and his great toes. What can you do with a hard man like that? They could have killed him, but they do not. One thing, however, is in his favour, he recognises the government of God upon him. He says, "As I have done, so God has requited me".

G.W.H. They limited his movements and activities.

J.T. Yes. He exemplifies a man that relies on developed natural power, and was cruel in the use of it; he compelled seventy kings to glean under his table.

A.F.M. Is this disciplinary in his case?

J.T. Yes. It brings out how those having the spirit of Judah deal with a man like Adoni-Bezek.

A.R.S. It says he died.

J.T. It does not say how long he lived; the point is where he died. They brought him to Jerusalem and there he died. As reduced he was set in advantageous surroundings, but he never flourished again. It takes grace and wisdom to deal with a brother typified by this man. If there is anything of God in a man like Adoni-Bezek, limitation helps him; if he is not likely to be governed by the Spirit of God, that is the best you can do with him. Understood spiritually, Adoni-Bezek received wise treatment from Judah here.

W.M. It is a serious thing to be reduced in this way under the government of God.

J.S. It is better to limit a brother than that he should be at large pulling things down.

J.T. In view of what Jerusalem represents spiritually, they could not have done better for him; it was more than he deserved. But then it is these two brothers who are doing it!

W.M. He was an extraordinary man to deal with, and they dealt with him in an extraordinary manner.

Rem. What they did was an evidence of the government of God.

J.T. Typically, it proves ability among the brethren to do what is right. There must have been something of value in him, for he made an acknowledgment of the just government of God.

G.W.H. That is, what he had done to others they had done to him.

Rem. They became the actual instruments of God in the matter.

J.T. The fruit of the work of God is very scarce, and ought to be preserved. Every little bit of it is of value. The ministry of John develops the ability to conserve every bit of the work of God. You might say, 'This brother is hard to get along with'; but if you heard of a brother, say, from among the sects, interested in the things of God, you would go miles to see him! There was not much in Nicodemus at the beginning, but he comes out well at the end.

W.M. It is a serious thing to mutilate our brethren.

J.T. It is very much like circumcision, the putting off of the body of the flesh -- the thumbs and great toes.

B.T.F. Would you say that the ministry of Christ comes in in a case like that, that what is evil is completely neutralised?

J.T. Yes. It is neutralised by spiritual power. Jerusalem, although burned as the stronghold of the Jebusites, was of great importance in God's mind. Scripture abounds with great spiritual thoughts centring in Jerusalem. Adoni-Bezek, crippled in the flesh, was brought there.

Coming to Othniel -- if we are to have a true idea of the judges, we must keep him clearly before us.

J.S. What feature of the truth does he set forth?

J.T. I think it is the spiritual family setting. That is the next great element, the roots of the man. He is, so to speak, "rooted and founded in love", (Ephesians 3:17). It is like Colossians and Ephesians, the family setting is ever in view.

W.M. It is very significant that what we have in Colossians we have in Othniel, the setting aside of natural mentality -- he takes the 'City of the Book'. And the Spirit of God comes in in connection with the springs of water.

J.T. That is very important. He was tested: could he take that city?

W.M. It is much easier to be guided by a book of rules and regulations than by divine principles.

A.F.M. I suppose the 'City of the Book', Kirjath-sepher, is superseded by Christ, as is also Kirjath-Arba, as seen in Colossians and Ephesians.

J.T. It says, "And Judah went against the Canaanites that dwelt in Hebron -- the name of Hebron before was Kirjath-Arba; and they slew Sheshai and Ahiman and Talmai". It was the seat of the giants, and it was important to deal with them; they refer to great men according to the flesh, which we have to meet now. "And from there he went against the inhabitants of Debir; now the name of Debir before was Kirjath-sepher". This is where Othniel shines.

Ques. What about the change of names?

J.T. Hebron and Debir are the two new names instead of Kirjath-Arba and Kirjath-sepher. The latter, the 'City of the Book', suggests the universities of today; they must have their books. Much is made of education and universities, but not in relation to the things of God. Caleb is urgent about the smiting of this city. He represents those who know that the young brothers and sisters will never get on, so as to exercise their judgment among us, unless they are delivered from the 'City of the Book', what man's mind produces -- the great men of this world. Caleb represents the spiritual element which sees that unless young people overcome these things, they never can be of service in the church.

A.R.S. A spiritual element working among the young to spur them on.

J.T. These meetings are to bring all, but particularly the young, into the mind of God. What dangers there are in the giants! We are to be delivered from these things.

B.T.F. The 'City of the Book' refers to mere human ability and learning.

J.T. It appeals strongly to human pride and ambition. A good library, however, is valuable; Paul advises Timothy to give attention to reading. Paul was also concerned about "the books" and "the parchments", (2 Timothy 4:13). We cannot get along without written ministry, both past and present; but by itself it will never make a Caleb, a man of long experience with God. These things will never help apart from experience in the wilderness with God. Achsah, Caleb's daughter comes in, and she is concerned about springs, not books, finery, nor mere wealth. She wanted springs of water.

Rem. They correspond with Hebron.

J.T. That is right. Hebron is before the world; it is most interesting and instructive. It was the burial place of Abraham, Isaac, Rebecca, Jacob, and of others marked by faith.

Rem. It was built seven years before Zoan. It antedates everything here.

J.T. It gets its name before it is taken by Israel. It is called Hebron in Numbers 13:22. The city stands for what is spiritual.

W.M. In Scripture what is spiritual comes last. Hence Kirjath-Arba, as a name, is before Hebron.

N.McC. There is an element of reward entering into the capture of Kirjath-sepher.

J.T. Achsah conveys the idea of the church. The church needs the Spirit. If you get the features of the church, there will be a recognition of, and desire for the Spirit.

A.F.M. You infer that the church demands the Spirit?

J.T. If the Spirit is operating in any company, they will look for the spiritual touch in the ministry. Normally the church will ever demand that. Achsah had already an

inheritance, but she says, "Give me also springs of water". A good deal is said in this book about springs of water.

Rem. Apart from what they represent, church procedure is mere ceremony and form.

J.T. There may be accuracy in form and order, but you need more than that. You may get good addresses too, but without spiritual substance.

Rem. The meaning of Othniel is, 'Lion of God'. It is the character of Christ; and if Achsah is coming in and demanding the springs, it is as linked with Othniel.

J.T. Kirjath-sepher would mean that you can get along with books, implying intellectual culture and power; but Achsah sees the need of springs. She urged Othniel to ask for "the field"; but she sprang down and asked for more; it seems that she waxed bolder in her requests. She says, "Give me a blessing; for thou hast given me a southern land; give me also springs of water". And he gave her more than she asked for; Caleb represents God in giving "the upper springs and the lower springs". God does "far exceedingly above all which we ask or think, according to the power which works in us", (Ephesians 3:20).

W.B-w. You might attract people by natural ability, but they cannot make headway without the Spirit.

J.T. We may be accurate in our ministry, if you go by "the book". As working on the line of human education and ability you have that standard in mind; but if you rely on the Spirit of God in your ministry, you are not a slave to man's standard; what you are concerned about is the mind of God being ministered in power.

Ques. What about the upper and lower springs?

J.T. I suppose they would include Romans and Ephesians. Ephesians gives us the heavenly things.

Rem. Romans makes much of the Spirit.

J.T. Colossians mentions the Spirit only once. But both Romans and Ephesians make much of the Spirit.

Now I thought we might notice the failure alluded to in the end of the chapter -- what Israel did not do. This is set forth from verse 27 to the end. But before that, it ought to be noted that Joseph took Bethel, which is the house of God. Afterwards it says that they did not dispossess. "Ephraim did not dispossess the Canaanites"; and so with Naphtali and others. That is the failure. The greater part were in failure. They allowed the Canaanites to stay, not being able to dispossess them.

A.F.M. This is the detail of it. Joshua took the land; that is more general.

J.T. And what was left for each of the tribes, was to dispossess the Canaanite in his own territory.

A.F.M. The point would be, as to ourselves, as to how much we have yet to possess. The general thought is that the land is taken; but how much have we in the way of possession?

J.T. For that, you have to dislodge the Canaanite. It is local responsibility, what they ought to have done, but did not do; and that is the basis of the next chapter. It says, "And the Angel of Jehovah came up from Gilgal to Bochim"; that is, there is a lower spiritual state of things. Bochim is on a lower level. It is not Gilgal; it is not Colossians; it is Revelation. The position the Angel has taken up is on a lower level.

J.T.Jr. The springs, rightly appropriated, would keep us near God and on the high level.

A.R.S. Would it represent the angels of the churches?

J.T. They are representative, but in Revelation 1 the angel also represents distance. The ground of the epistles is left.

Rem. Weeping sometimes proves nothing of moral value, as for example, when the spies returned, (Numbers 14).

J.T. There is virtue in it here in that the Angel came to the place of it; but it does not represent proper church ground. It is angelic ministry. The law was "ordained

through angels" (Galatians 3:19); but that is not our dispensation.

Ques. Is the reason that Joseph overcame, the same reason that makes one local company prosper more than another?

J.T. Obviously Judah and Joseph did better than the others. They were the first to get the inheritance and had the chief place. Judah is royalty and Joseph takes Bethel, the house of God.

W.B-w. Joseph wanted a larger portion.

J.T. It was a good indication. But Joshua said, 'If you are great, go up and take possession'. They had not done so.

A.R.S. Why did not the Angel tell them to drive the Canaanites out? He speaks of what they did not do.

J.T. I think it is to bring out the actual state of things, so that the changed circumstances, because of the failure of Israel, and God's relation to them in these circumstances, might be clear. God intervenes in faithfulness amid the irretrievable condition of the people. Chapters 18 and 19 are brought in to show the condition that existed. Chapter 2:14 - 23 records the steady descent to the general depravity which marked the people.

Rem. The Angel says, "But ye have not hearkened unto my voice. Why have ye done this? Wherefore I also said, I will not drive them out from before you". I suppose that would indicate that it is hopeless to look for a universal recovery in christendom. We must be thankful if there is any touch of divine work and that we are put in contact with it, and we should make the most of it.

A.R. The people later even go so far as to give Samson, one of their saviours, into the hands of the Philistines.

J.T. It was Judah, the tribe that began so well, as we have seen -- foreshadowing, in their dealing with Samson, the guilt of the Jews in handing Christ over to the Romans. Chapter 2 explains all that develops in the book.

Jehovah in grace raised up judges, and was with each judge for the deliverance of the people, but as "the judge died ... they turned back and corrupted themselves more than their fathers" (verse 19).

THE SPIRIT OF JUDGMENT (2)

Judges 3:1 - 31

A.N.W. Would you mind making plain how the service of the judge comes in as in the character of discernment, as stated this morning, in view, for instance, of verse 18 of chapter 2: "And when Jehovah raised them up judges, then Jehovah was with the judge, and saved them out of the hand of their enemies all the days of the judge; for it repented Jehovah because of their groanings by reason of them that oppressed them and crushed them".

J.T. I think that what is given us of Othniel helps to the understanding of the qualifications of a judge, and how the ability to judge with discrimination necessarily enters into this book. It is said in Isaiah 11:2 - 4: "and the spirit of Jehovah shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of Jehovah. And his delight will be in the fear of Jehovah; and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears; but with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity the meek of the earth". I thought that we might see there the spirit of the judge as seen practically in Christ, with a view to what is said in Acts 17:31, that God "is going to judge the habitable earth in righteousness by the man whom he has appointed, giving the proof of it to all in having raised him from among the dead". Judgment according to God must take on the character of discernment.

G.W.H. And is there not a distinction to be made as regards the heroic deeds of these judges, and this exercise of the spirit of judgment active in regard to the people themselves, as Samuel went around from place to place judging Israel?

J.T. Yes, quite.

Ques. Is not judgment equally a discernment of right as of wrong; a discernment of what is and a pronouncement of it?

J.T. Exactly. In Othniel you have one from good family roots, in connection with which there is ability to discern what the enemy is using to disaffect the people of God; added to this there is the judgment required to know the conditions under which they suffer, so as to meet such conditions. Hence we are enjoined as to the exercise of our senses so as to discern between good and evil; otherwise there cannot be judgment according to God.

A.F.M. The judge was raised up to meet what the enemy had brought in. So that Othniel meets this condition brought about by the king of Mesopotamia.

J.T. What you see is that Chushan-rishathaim was a man of great resources. Well, to meet that, you would require to have resources. Therefore, the consideration of Othniel will help us as to what judgeship means. You have to meet the conditions with such means as would overcome them. Now this king, Chushan-rishathaim, is said to be king of Mesopotamia, meaning 'Syria of the two rivers'. A river indicates many things; amongst others, resourcefulness, or the means of resources. Any country well 'rivered' is sure to be prosperous and fruitful, therefore affording resources. And it was that sort of thing that the enemy was using to enslave the people of God at this time. How would Othniel meet it? He was a man of resources of another kind, but of resources, nevertheless.

A.F.M. He had upper and lower springs.

J.S. Would the end in view be not only deliverance, but rest for the people? "The land had rest forty years".

J.T. That is the end in view. But I think we should get clear as to what judgeship and its qualifications mean.

The history of Othniel indicates the kind of qualifications God had in mind. Service requires secret history with God; so that the servant is divinely prepared when the time comes. You find in the history of God's ways with His people that in emergencies a man of God is there, sometimes without a name even, as in chapter 6:7 - 10. On certain occasions He will use nameless persons, for God has His reserves always. And so if a judge is needed, God has been preparing him beforehand; Othniel is typical of that. In verse 9 of this chapter it is said, "And the children of Israel cried to Jehovah; and Jehovah raised up a saviour to the children of Israel, who saved them, Othniel the son of Kenaz, Caleb's younger brother". He already had him, but now he is "raised up". It is not his qualifications now, but the fact that he is raised up as a saviour.

W.B-w. Spiritual discernment precedes judgment; discernment of what the enemy is doing before we arrive at a judgment.

J.T. How can we exercise discrimination so as to arrive at a judgment, unless we have discernment?

W.B-w. The application follows that.

J.T. The application is that you begin to administer according to what you discern. God may raise you up for that purpose. We must distinguish between the ability to discern and responsibility to administer according to what is discerned, in God raising up a person and using him.

B.T.F. Have you a thought as to why Caleb is mentioned in regard to Othniel?

J.T. He represents the mind of God. He knew what was needed. And then he had some understanding of what Achsah represents. We have to look at these things antitypically to understand them. There is the mind of God, and those who are with Him here understand what is necessary and what He provides. Achsah understood what was needed, and Caleb gave her the springs. These entered into Othniel's qualifications for service.

A.J.D. Is raising up consequent upon there being features that please God?

J.T. The raising up is God's act; it would be based on His knowledge of the servant. He said of Aaron, "I know that he can speak well", (Exodus 4:14).

A.F.M. In most instances we get the judge delivering first, and then judging afterwards. Is this normal, saving first, and then judging?

J.T. Here Othniel "judged Israel; and he went out to war"; but the general statement is that "Jehovah raised up a saviour to the children of Israel, who saved them, Othniel the son of Kenaz, Caleb's younger brother. And the Spirit of Jehovah was upon him, and he judged Israel; and he went out to war". He saved them.

W.M. Chapter 1 suggests potential gift, and chapter 3 the exercise of it. He becomes a saviour. It is a sovereign gift and then responsibility.

J.T. Chapter 1 gives the earlier history of the man; chapter 3 shows how that history entered into his service. He was a saviour, a man of spiritual resources, and so met the thing that Satan used. Satan was using resources, but God met them with His in Othniel.

Rem. Is it not contemplated in Corinthians that the spirit of judgment should be among all saints. Even if it comes in leadership, as it does, it should prevail among the saints as such.

J.T. So that even the one "little esteemed in the assembly" (1 Corinthians 6:4) is to judge.

W.B-w. Would you say the 'two rivers' represented currents of evil which Othniel discerned to begin with?

J.T. They indicate means of worldly resources. We know from the prophets exactly how the Nile was regarded (see Ezekiel 29). Rivers represent, when in the hands of the enemy, what is evil, as the resources of the world.

Rem. It is a serious thing when we consider that these

two rivers originally were of the four from Eden, intended for blessing, yet they had become perverted under the power of evil.

J.T. Two of them so employed, I think, would suggest excessive opposition to what is of God. It is a combination.

A.R.S. Othniel knew the tactics of the enemy and planned to defeat them. Is there a connection between that and the strong man who gets bound by the Stronger than he (Luke 11:21,22)?

J.T. There is; you see in the letters to Corinth how a movement of Satan is made. Every movement of Satan has its own features, and requires discernment as to how to meet it. The apostle Paul says, "That we might not have Satan get an advantage against us, for we are not ignorant of his thoughts", (2 Corinthians 2:11). This enters into judgeship, involving ability to discern and meet the attacks of the enemy.

A.N.W. Is Othniel a saviour with a view of being a judge, or a judge to be a saviour?

J.T. Both. He raised up a saviour to save them. And then we are told how it came about: "And the Spirit of Jehovah was upon him, and he judged Israel; and he went out to war, and Jehovah gave Chushan-rishathaim king of Syria into his hand". We have the general fact stated that he was a saviour and saved them; but the judgment came first according to verse 10. That is, he judged Israel, but it was by the Spirit of Jehovah. It came upon him. It is not essentially his experience or qualifications, but by the power of God's Spirit specially upon him. As discrimination begins with any one of us, such a one discerns a thing is wrong; that is good, but if he is quiescent as to it, that is not good. Judgeship implies not only discernment but administration, which is not to be viewed lightly, for it enters into every act based on discernment. How do I regard the brother or sister responsible for the evil? As soon as I begin to administer

according to the judgment, then God comes in and the Spirit of Jehovah coming upon me means I represent God; not only am I controlled by righteousness, or the exercise of love, but the Spirit of Jehovah comes upon me, as upon Othniel here, who judged Israel and went out to war.

Rem. In the book of Revelation not only is there discernment, but judgment, and the carrying of the thing out.

J.T. One great point here is that the Angel leaves Gilgal and goes to Bochim. That is an important feature of this book, the change of the divine position. God goes on as far as He can; but He cannot go on with apostasy.

Rem. So in 1 Timothy a definite attitude is taken by God, and then conditions come in which necessitate 2 Timothy; this is like going from Gilgal to Bochim.

W.B-w. The Spirit coming upon a person (corresponding with chapter 3:10) is when he commences to administer in the light he has got, in a given case.

J.T. Inquiry may begin by one, but you can only go a certain length, as in Matthew 18. You first go to your brother yourself; then you take one or two besides; and then you go to the assembly, where you have what God identifies Himself with. The power of God is there to deal with the evil. This principle is exceedingly practical: whenever I see anything evil occurring I judge it, and then move to meet it. Many of us are quiescent in such instances, and the enemy gets an advantage. Nabal's young man saw what happened, he understood the answer Nabal sent to David, and while he could not meet the difficulty occasioned, he was not quiescent about it. He told Abigail -- as if to say, 'That is your matter'. That is the thing; if we move to meet the difficulty God will come in.

W.M. It requires courage to do that.

J.T. It does indeed, but there is a great deal of letting things go with us. "The Spirit of Jehovah was upon him";

when that takes place in any measure you have what represents God, and evil is dealt with authoritatively.

A.J.D. Should this principle be found in sisters?

J.T. I think so. The house of Chloe did not let the thing rest, but acquainted Paul with what occurred, and God came in, and the matter was dealt with.

A.F.M. There is a great difference between being quiescent and militant in regard to evil; and even if we are not able to act, we can look to God to come in; we can be militant in our spirits.

J.T. God will surely help, and the procedure will take on a divine character; not only are you acting in love, but in authority, so that the thing is effectively dealt with.

E.P. Do you get both ideas in Isaiah 28:6? Jehovah will be "for a spirit of judgment to him that sitteth in judgment, and for strength to them that turn the battle to the gate;" and this is in the presence of Israel's apostasy.

J.T. Quite. It often comes to this, that the Spirit of the Lord lifts up a standard when there is discernment and administration based on it. It is there that His standard is lifted up.

A.J.D. Is that the Spirit's special move for the moment?

J.T. It is. Of Othniel, the first judge, it is said: "And the Spirit of Jehovah was upon him, and he judged Israel; and he went out to war, and Jehovah gave Chushan-rishathaim, king of Syria, into his hand; and his hand prevailed against Chushan-rishathaim". You see how the victory is complete; his hand prevailed.

Rem. In Revelation a great deal is made of seeing.

J.T. What you get there is that the Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God which are sent into all the earth. Both in regard to the assembly and the general government of God there is the power of discernment. There can be no judgment

or deliverance without such power and action based on it.

Ques. What about "all the wars of Canaan"? Are they general crises?

J.T. I think they are. The expression refers to the book of Joshua particularly. It is important to see that these Canaanites were left so that we all should become warriors, and so have part in further wars for the testimony. The wars are on a high level.

A.P-t. In the forty years following Othniel's victories what would be his position?

J.T. He would be a judge, during which time the land had rest.

A.F.M. Why is it said, "The land had rest"? The expression occurs frequently in this book.

J.T. The land itself is much in the mind of God. It would mean that, there being no war, there was rest generally.

A.F.M. The land and people are identified. With regard to Othniel, we are not informed as to what instrument he employed for subduing the king of Syria. The two following judges, Ehud and Shamgar, used a sword and an ox goad respectively.

J.T. What you get is that the Spirit of Jehovah is enough to cope with all these attacks. I should think that this war with Chushan-rishathaim would be a military operation on a large scale, by the Spirit of God.

Ques. How about the eight years of verse 8?

J.T. That refers not to warfare but to the oppression. The period of the war is not stated. He went out to war. Othniel judged Israel and went out. He was not an indolent man like David was on one occasion in Jerusalem -- he abode at the time when kings go forth to battle. Othniel went out.

Ques. Is it in contrast to verse 5 when they dwelt among the Canaanites?

J.T. The early part of the chapter shows how the matter stood. They were not faithful, hence they dwelt among the Canaanites, and you have corruption in marriage alliances.

With Ehud it is not a question of the opposition of earthly resources, but fatness -- human pride. Eglon was a fat man, and his forces took the city of palm trees. He evidently made Jericho, or the city of palm trees in the land, his headquarters. This warfare is marked by a personal exploit.

Rem. So it says of Ehud that he "made him a sword"; it is individual work.

J.T. Being a left-handed man, he would make one to suit himself A judge understands what he has to deal with, and must meet it. God helps him in his preparation as in the actual conflict.

G.W.H. He does not go by precedent either.

J.T. No. We have no record of any one acting just in this way before.

Rem. As is the man so the implement. David used a sling and a stone.

J.T. Ehud makes a weapon that would deal with fatness effectively. And he lets it stay in Eglon, where it can do the best service. It refers to the word of God.

G.W.H. He struck the thing at its root.

Ques. Would Moab typify pride; and the belly the lower affections?

J.T. That is right. Moab was at ease, not emptied from vessel to vessel. It is typical of a condition among God's people where the flesh, fostered by ease and selfishness, and resulting in pride, had acquired a place. The Lord Jesus is the very opposite of this; He says, "I may count all my bones" (Psalm 22:17).

R.W.S. What is the force of his being left-handed, and of the way he girded his sword?

J.T. It speaks of what is irregular. In religious history a great deal is made of regularity; you must conform to

certain rules to be in the service of God. This man would not have come up to that; he was irregular.

Ques. Do you touch the clerical system when you speak of this?

J.T. Yes. Ehud would not have conformed with clerical requirements.

Rem. There is no allowance made for the Spirit of God in those systems.

Rem. The Lord did not go on regular lines when He chose Peter and Andrew, John and James.

J.T. Why did He not choose Nicodemus or some others of the rabbis? He does not choose what man recognises. Ehud indicates God's choice.

E.P. Paul said to Timothy that he had fully known his doctrine and manner of life. And he would use it.

J.T. He was not told to wear Paul's cloak, but was to bring it with him. Timothy knew that he could not put it on, but he would admire it! I believe the cloak and the books would humble him, for they would suggest how great a vessel Paul was -- one to be followed.

Rem. Gehazi used Elisha's staff, but he did not accomplish anything.

J.T. Neither could Elisha himself. He could not raise the child with that staff. He had to lie upon him, to come down to the child's measure. Everything has its own requirements, and we have to be ready to meet them.

Rem. Do we get "the wars of Canaan" in the way Paul deals with things at Corinth, for instance, and in the epistle to the Galatians? Timothy would have the gain of all that.

J.T. Just so. We are all to learn how to be good soldiers of Jesus Christ, taking our share in suffering.

Rem. We get the equipment for the wars of Canaan in Ephesians 6.

J.T. It is the whole armour of God.

W.B-w. Ehud girds the sword on his thigh. Is there a connection with the word of God?

J.T. There is a very great connection. Ehud was with God, and acted with skill. He brought a present to the king, which evidently was borne by others. They went back and he with them; and then he returned by himself from the quarries, which required remarkable courage and wisdom. Everything fitted perfectly, and the result is complete.

A.F.M. The first rest through Othniel was forty years, and this rest through Ehud eighty years. Is this period of eighty years according to the greatness of the victory gained?

J.T. I think it is; it is the longest period mentioned. It is evidently the result of evil being dealt with at the root by the word of God.

A.F.M. I was wondering about the city of palm trees being re-taken, what is the point of that?

J.T. I do not know. Undoubtedly Jericho, the scene of the first great victory of Israel, is referred to. It represented the prowess of Israel in spiritual power. And now it is in enemy hands; Moab had taken that. The Kenites had been there. They were a wilderness people, relatives of Moses' father-in-law; they were children of the wilderness; they had left the city of palm trees and dwelt in the wilderness. The place thus is vacated and Moab takes it. It was complete defeat for Israel.

G.McP. If we do not judge evil in ourselves, God will expose the flesh in us.

J.T. Ehud's victory is remarkable in that it emphasises the authority of God's word and the effectiveness of it.

W.B-w. It was a sword of two edges.

J.T. It is figurative of the word of God, the sword of the Spirit.

Then there are these ten thousand fat men; they are referred to in the sense of derision. They were spectacles in their fatness. Their carcasses lay there; they were brought down by the power of the word of God. It is very encouraging as to what is available in these crises;

if we respect the word of God and use it rightly, what may not be done!

W.B-w. The sword was of one cubit. It does not represent a long sermon.

J.T. Exactly. David chose five smooth stones, but one was enough. And so this one-cubit sword was quite enough. If it had been longer, it might not have been effective. It was just long enough to be plunged in and left.

I think we might notice in closing that as to Shamgar it does not say he had to do with an oppression; rather that these six hundred Philistines were there. There are occasions of opposition to the truth, which are not exactly oppressions. It is not complete domination; but it will be unless it is dealt with. Deliverance was needed, however. Samson later deals with an oppression by these people; but this is what one man did to six hundred who having had a status in the land were specially formidable. They came into Canaan otherwise than through the Jordan.

A.F.M. How could a man slay six hundred people with an ox goad?

J.T. I think it is a question of experience with God, bearing out what we have been saying. An ox goad is something you prod the ox with to keep him in his place and make him obedient. It is discipline in the school of God. Every one of us must be dealt with in this way; for we are not sons if we are not under discipline. He represents that side; he knew what goading meant. With Othniel it is the Spirit of Jehovah; there is a great general position; he is a man imbued with the Spirit of Jehovah and goes out to war. Ehud values the word of God; he is resourceful; he is a type of what is original and unique, but most effective. Shamgar sets forth experience with God, without which we cannot represent Him, nor be effective against His enemies.

A.R.S. Shamgar knew how to use what he had to

advantage. The Lord used what was there in feeding the multitude.

J.T. Shamgar understood what it was to be in harness and to work under discipline.

Rem. In chapter 5 Shamgar's days were marked by the blocking of the highways. "The roads were unused, and the travellers on highways went by crooked paths", (verse 6). This state of things would be the result of Philistine work -- corresponding with the religious world today.

J.T. Evidently, therefore, the ministry of Shamgar did not result in divine principles becoming operative. I think Deborah alludes to his times as if they did not make a way for divine principles generally. The highways were neglected in spite of the great exploit. Luther is illustrative of this. He did a wonderful work, but he did not open up the great highway of fellowship and the assembly.

G.W.H. The travellers went by crooked paths.

J.T. Yes, in spite of this intervention of God. Luther's work was not final as leading anywhere; it was, however, important. But with regard to experience, it is what you have got in your hand. Moses was concerned as to how God could use him. God said, "What is that in thy hand?" (Exodus 4:2). He will use that.

Ques. Is not there a certain amount of reproach in connection with an ox goad? Deborah says there was not a shield or a spear among forty thousand.

J.T. That is right. I suppose literally those expressions implied that the people were disarmed, and that would bring Ehud into greater relief in making his own instrument.

R.D.G. There is no reference to the land having rest in Shamgar's case?

J.T. There was a rest of eighty years as a result of Ehud's action, but no rest is mentioned in connection with Shamgar's exploit; however, it is said, "he also delivered Israel".

THE SPIRIT OF JUDGMENT (3)

Judges 4:1 - 24; Judges 5:31

J.T. There is a touch in the closing verse of chapter 5 which should be in view in our present inquiry; it refers to those who love God. It is the first reference to love in the book, and the only reference to love for God.

G.W.H. Is it normal in the land that God should be loved?

J.T. Yes, and then the answering effect of that is, that those who love Him are to be as the rising of the sun in its might; that is the general effect of love for God. I just mention that as something to be in our minds, because, after all, that is what everything hangs upon subjectively. The apostle says, "If any one love not the Lord Jesus Christ let him be Anathema Maranatha", (1 Corinthians 16:22).

A.F.M. Do you suppose that some who did not go out to the battle were not active in love?

J.T. Evidently they were not. I think the poem (chapter 5) is very discriminating in this respect. It conveys discriminative judgment as to the different tribes; how they were affected by the crisis. The crisis here is exceptional, because it is due to the revival of Hazor. Hazor was primarily the head of the nations (see Joshua 11:10); that is, its domination represents what the people of God were confronted with at the beginning in apostolic times, what had dominated in the world politically. That was overthrown by Joshua, but it has revived here. It refers to some revival of power in the history of the church, power which had already been overcome.

Rem. During the Dark Ages this power manifested itself as in apostolic times.

J.T. Yes, the apostolic service overcame what had dominated in the world, as, for instance, in the religious

centre, Jerusalem, and the political centre, Rome. These were the two leading features. Jerusalem was overthrown. God says that faith in them would enable the disciples to say to this mountain, "Be thou taken away and be thou cast into the sea" (Matthew 21:21), and it would come to pass. Subsequently we have the great political powers overthrown in a moral sense; it was a question of the saints being free from them. The victories of Joshua foreshadow all this; but in Judges we have the revival of Hazor, so that there is a very formidable power to be overcome.

Rem. The special response here is in the weakest and most despised part. You have Zebulun and Naphtali who "jeoparded their lives", (chapter 5:18). It was in the parts of Galilee.

J.T. Quite. Judah is not in evidence.

A.F.M. You spoke of a centre. Do you refer to Harosheth-Goim (Harosheth of the nations) as being a great political centre?

J.T. Yes; Sisera dwelt there, but Jabin reigned in Hazor. The military chief dwelt in Harosheth-Goim, whereas the king reigned in Hazor. So that it was a very extensive organisation, the military man having great powers.

A.N.W. "Let all thine enemies perish" is quite in keeping with lovers of God. "Thine enemies", not our enemies.

W.B-w. Would it be a question of meeting a combination of evil?

J.T. Exactly. I think it points to the revival, in a spiritual sense, of the empire in Rome and its unique organisation. It is organised power in a special way here, so organised that the military man can afford to live in a different place from the king. The organisation is not weakened by the fact that the military man lives elsewhere. Harosheth of the nations is a wide thought, alluding, I think, to complete servitude of the people. So that the domination is very extensive and powerful.

A.N.W. Iron characterises it.

Rem. Deborah says, "I will draw unto thee, to the torrent Kishon, Sisera, the captain of Jabin's army, and his chariots and his multitude, and I will give him into thy hand". What an impression it gives of the control of God!

A.P-t. Why did Jehovah sell them?

J.T. It is that they might be humbled and return to Him. After all, God is over the whole position in regard to His people and their enemies.

Rem. It is difficult for us to understand the thought of the control of the empire that will be set up.

J.T. It is not an empire that will be set up, but already is. It is not the empire of "the beast" that is in view here, but the current, active, religious thing seeking to establish its complete domination; the revival of the empire under the beast will be in a special way. This is the third great domination in Judges: first the Mesopotamian, second, the Moabitish, and then the Jabinian which is more lengthy than any so far -- twenty years.

J.S. Are the people seen in a lower state morally here?

J.T. No doubt. But I think what we should notice is the part that women played in this deliverance -- Deborah and Jael. That is to say, there was now something more concretely subjective among the people. Deborah represents fine moral qualities. In spite of this oppression she judged Israel, and the children of Israel came to her. She did not assert her greatness; but it was there and they came up to her for judgment.

A.N.W. That subjective state is as effective as an official position.

J.T. The official comes in in Barak, because it is out of keeping with God's ways to make an absolute leader of a woman. So Barak was the leader, but the initiative was with Deborah. She had a history with God; she had a palm tree of her own, and dwelt under it.

J.S. What would answer to that today?

J.T. It would be some subjective result, brought about by self-judgment and general exercise as to the current need among the people of God. Deborah was "a mother in Israel" (chapter 5:7), which suggests maternal exercises in view of others; the assembly as seen in Galatians is indicated.

W.M. Her femininity is emphasised. She was 'a woman prophetess'. This expression reminds one of Revelation 12:5, where the Lord is called "a male son".

A.F.M. Might I ask what is definitely the character of this opposition?

J.T. It helps to revert to the history of Hazor which was the head of the nations, as it says in Joshua 11. Joshua had burned it with fire. That is, there was complete destruction of the thing. But here there is the recovery of it. In the history of the church the public body has actually settled itself into that which apostolic testimony morally destroyed. There is a revival of the Roman system in a religious form -- it is seen in the woman who sat upon the scarlet beast. In the zenith of her power she controlled the empire.

A.F.M. Roman Catholicism, speaking simply.

J.E.H. How does it affect us here?

J.T. Any revival of a principle that has been exposed or overthrown would correspond. Hazor represents the political system as the apostles had to do with it. Jerusalem, representing the religious system, had the lead in the world; but the apostles had also to overcome the political and national features of the world -- not actually, of course, but in a moral way. Hence Paul says, "For our commonwealth has its existence in the heavens", (Philippians 3:20). There is in that the overthrow of the idea of a political head or centre here on earth. Patriotism is a very powerful thing in the hearts of men. The gospel is intended to overthrow it in the believer.

Ques. Historically then, being sold into the hands of Jabin fits into Revelation 2 and 3?

J.T. Yes, there is a revival of what had been most drastically overthrown, because it was burned.

Rem. The offset is in Philippians: "Our commonwealth has its existence in the heavens". And you have: "Jerusalem which is now ... is in bondage with her children" (Galatians 4:25).

J.T. Deliverance here, is in connection with the "mother in Israel".

W.N. I suppose we may look at this as connected with the historical character of the assembly. At a certain time Luther appeared, and I would almost compare him with Ehud -- he destroyed all the lusty men.

J.T. The analogy is there. God, through Luther, dealt Rome a blow from which she has not recovered; nor will she. "Great Babylon has fallen, has fallen, and has become the habitation of demons", (Revelation 18:2). But the idea of the assembly did not take practical form through his ministry, nor did he even overcome the national thought. The Reformation retained the national thought: Lutherans, Anglicans, Presbyterians, and Calvinists all witness to the fact that nationalism remained. But in the 'mother' here you have a suggestion of the assembly in a positive way.

Rem. Does not that hang upon the Holy Spirit? The movement with Luther appealed to men's reason and to the letter of Scripture; but it made no room for the Holy Spirit.

J.T. The place of the Holy Spirit and the mother coalesce. So that you have: "Jerusalem above ... which is our mother", (Galatians 4:26). Galatians involves sonship. Philippians gives us our commonwealth or citizenship as in heaven. The two ideas that held the people of God, the religious, Jerusalem that now is, and the imperial, in Rome, as the great head of the nations, were overthrown by apostolic ministry. In our chapter there is an allusion to the church, in the spirit of the mother. There is some development, however small, answering to that here.

Deborah's location between Ramah ( 'elevated' ) and Bethel ( 'House of God' ) is to be noted. She dwelt there in moral power under her own palm tree; and they came up to her for judgment.

G.W.H. Indicating her own personal victory.

J.T. She had moral power that drew people to her. She was the wife of Lapidoth; she did not dominate her husband, but was his wife, meaning that she was subject.

A.R. She remained in her place; they came up to her.

J.T. She said, "Hath not Jehovah the God of Israel commanded?" It is not man's will at all. It involves subjection to the will of God, and this will result in complete deliverance.

Ques. What was lacking in Israel, as indicated in the song of Deborah, when she says, "Until that I Deborah arose", (chapter 5:7)?

J.T. The highways were unused and the villages ceased. Divine principles were not known or acted upon and, typically, there were no local assemblies.

G.W.H. Also there were new gods chosen; that was a serious situation.

A.F.M. Do you regard Deborah and Jael as bringing in this mother or assembly idea?

J.T. I think it is the wife first and then the mother. It is not that Heber was Jael's husband or that Lapidoth was the husband of Deborah; but rather they were wives. The church is subjected to the Christ. That is the position of these women. Hence there is moral power.

J.S. They were holding the truth in moral power?

J.T. In subjection. So that in Othniel, Ehud, and Shamgar there is no allusion to the 'commandment'. It was a question of meeting the opposition. But Deborah says, "Hath not Jehovah the God of Israel commanded?" As the apostle says, "If any one thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him recognise the things that I write to you, that it is the Lord's commandment", (1 Corinthians 14:37). That is where the moral element lies.

Rem. The moral restoration in Philadelphia was: "Thou ... hast kept my word", (Revelation 3:8).

A.N.W. So that a woman in praying gathers power in covering her head.

J.T. In 1 Corinthians 11 it is the woman's place, preceding the idea of the church; but in Ephesians the church is subjected, not just subject.

G.McP. In Revelation 21:9 it says, "The bride, the Lamb's wife".

E.P. The highways had ceased in Israel, but Paul would indicate the way: "If therefore one shall have purified himself from these ...", (2 Timothy 2:21). That would be opening up the way.

J.T. The Lord's commandment is the point; as He said, "He that has my commandments ...". Timothy had the commandments. The apostle saw to it that they were handed on. "He that has my commandments and keeps them, he it is that loves me", (John 14:21). Deborah has in mind lovers of God. In 2 Timothy some are designated as lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God. The 'highway' for us is opened up in 2 Timothy: first, as naming the name of the Lord we withdraw from iniquity; then we purify ourselves from vessels to dishonour, flee youthful lusts, and pursue righteousness with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

S.McC. Would not the recognition of the Lord's commandments in Deborah involve spirituality? "If any thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him recognise the things that I write to you, that it is the Lord's commandment", (1 Corinthians 14:37).

J.T. The evidence of Deborah's spirituality lay there. She recognised the commandment. That is what she has in view; lovers of God obey His commandments.

W.B-w. Evidently the oppression of twenty years brought to light that the only thing that would meet it would be the moral state in the woman.

J.T. You may depend there had been great formation

in Deborah to meet this mighty oppression, evincing the work of God.

W.B-w. It is not anything official in her, but moral state.

J.T. Her maternal instincts were manifest.

A.R. She was a prophetess, but really a great deal more.

J.T. Others were raised up, but she arose a mother in Israel; it was from herself, and you cannot resist that. It is not a question of being official; it is what she was morally as dwelling under her palm tree. It was obvious that victory was there.

W.B-w. She commenced by administering judgment, corresponding to what we have been saying.

A.F.M. What was the lack in Barak?

J.T. He was not equal to her, though it was a great thing that there was such a man as Barak. There are men and women who are useful, but every man is not equal to taking a lead. He would not go without her.

G.McP. Deborah was brought in as a woman to fill up a breach. Has this a voice to our sisters today?

J.T. It is a question of a Deborah arising -- really moral power in the saints. She has her own palm tree. She is said to be the wife of Lapidoth, whose name signifies light, which shows she was related to one who had light. It was not, however, what Lapidoth was doing; formation and activity were in Deborah. There was light in the Reformation; the husband was there, but not the mother. Our attention is here called to the power of that feature.

G.W.H. Do you think that further light came in Mr. Darby's day in view of assembly features?

J.T. Exactly; the Head in heaven and the body on earth.

Rem. The element of Barak is to be seen in the religious world generally even now, associated with many who are strong in mental qualities which are utterly insufficient unless the Deborah element is along with

them; so that the mental must be accompanied by the subjective.

J.T. That brings into evidence the economy of the church, the brethren moving in relation to it locally. You get the mother spirit, and then you get a Barak coming in, a brother who has signalised himself in the service, but he is moving now in relation to the mind of God expressed in the local company.

N.McC. What was the matter with Barak?

J.T. I do not think we should complain much of him. Hebrews 11 mentions him honourably. He was not equal to Deborah, but that brings into relief what Deborah stands for -- the revival of church traits, the mother spirit, as we have been noting. Barak responds to her call: "And she sent and called Barak the son of Abinoam out of Kedesh-Naphtali, and said to him, Hath not Jehovah the God of Israel commanded?" That is the mind of God expressed in the subjective qualities of the saints, as in the light of the church. And she says further, "Go and draw towards mount Tabor, and take with thee ten thousand men of the children of Naphtali and of the children of Zebulun, and I will draw unto thee, to the torrent Kishon, Sisera, the captain of Jabin's army, and his chariots and his multitude, and I will give him into thy hand". Barak is an available vessel at her call; the only provision he makes is that she must go with him.

Ques. As elements in the church, there is nothing abnormal about these movements, is there?

J.T. The responsible side is somewhat behind; we also see this in Manoah's case. This book shows that the subjective side, when in evidence, eclipses the responsible side; it does not set aside those responsible, but the work of God is greater, which is represented in Deborah and Jael here.

Ques. Would, "Deborah arose", indicate that the work of God makes room for itself?

J.T. The work of God needs no advertisement. It is its own advertisement, as in John 9"that the works of God should be manifested in him".

B.T.F. Would you say that Barak rather emphasises the importance of the prophetic word?

J.T. He does. He recognises its value, which is a good trait in him; he does not despise Deborah, but puts her before himself.

A.N.W. Deborah judges before salvation is effected.

J.T. She judged Israel while the oppression existed. It shows great moral power.

J.E.N. Deborah stands for the church; so that no person, however gifted, could intelligently go out in service apart from it.

J.T. However gifted or influential one may be, he moves in relation to the work of God in the saints. It is of great importance that each should be attached to a local company. Administration is not in the whole body of saints on earth, but in the local companies. That is church economy. We have to wait for the millennium for the whole great scheme of God. But now it is in the local companies.

Ques. Were not those features in the assembly at Antioch?

J.T. Exactly. There was the recognition of the gifted man on the part of the local company. "Separate me now", says the Holy Spirit, "Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them", (Acts 13:2). And they came back to Antioch after their great service "and they stayed no little time with the disciples", (Acts 14:28).

F.H.L. An unjealous spirit is seen in Deborah inasmuch as she calls Jael "blessed above women", (chapter 5:24).

J.T. Jael had an earlier history, as the song would indicate, in which things were not going so well, yet Deborah gives her credit for the victory. The Lord

delivered Sisera into the hand of a woman; that is what is emphasised.

A.N.W. I was wondering why Deborah says, "above women"; Mary in Luke 1:28 is blessed "amongst women".

Rem. Jael was blessed above women in the tent.

J.T. Her dwelling was a tent, not a house, The Kenites were nomads and so dwelt in tents, even in the land of Canaan. That God should use one of such in this signal way is a testimony to His sovereign resourcefulness.

W.B.H-w. Is Jael an extension of the power seen in Deborah?

J.T. I think it is the Ephesian position. The bringing in of the Kenite here points to Jew and gentile brought together. The universal bearing of Ephesians lifts us out of what is national and local into what is general. And so Deborah emerges from her own locality into what is general. For while the local company is according to the economy of the church, we must never lose sight of the assembly as a whole. The Kenite is, I think, the gentile typically. Jabin was head of the gentiles, but God meets that in this conflict. Politically Rome was the head of the nations; later she was head of the nations spiritually. God meets that by the truth of Ephesians; for it is the only true way of meeting Romish pretensions. If you have the divine position of the church before you in the local boundary, you can afford to move out into the fullest position of it.

G.W.H. And Luther did not meet Rome with Ephesians; he met it rather with Romans.

J.T. He met it with Romans and set aside James; and he did not bring in the church at all.

B.T.F. Would you say that Rome religiously claims to be the one church today; while in the true sense the one church is emphasised in Ephesians?

J.T. Yes. Ephesians emphasises the fact that Christ has reconciled both Jew and gentile in one body by the

cross, and that there is one body, one Spirit. That is the truth that effectually meets Rome; it overthrows in the souls of God's people the system of christendom.

W.M. He has brought in a corresponding subjective state in both Jew and gentile.

J.T. That is the thought. We are reconciled in Romans severally; but in Ephesians it is in one body.

W.B-w. So that Ephesians shows that our struggle is not against blood and flesh.

J.T. You may depend upon it that with Sisera who dwells at Harosheth-Goim, representing the military side, and Jabin who resides in Hazor, there is typically a powerful organisation with universal bearing. How can you meet it save in a spiritual way? Deliverance begins in a locality. Deborah dwelt between Ramah and Bethel; and then moves from there to the universal position: "Deborah arose, and went with Barak to Kedesh". Deliverance begins locally and extends universally. Here Israel prevails, and Deborah and Barak celebrate the victory in a striking way in chapter 5.

C.B. Jael found the tent-pin and hammer and used both to good effect.

J.T. The milk comes first; we must get the thing in its order. It says: "Blessed above women shall Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite be, Blessed above women in the tent! He asked water, she gave milk; In the nobles' bowl she brought forth cream. She put her hand to the tent-pin, And her right hand to the workmen's hammer" (chapter 5:24 - 26). It was not accidental; they were furnishings which she knew how to employ to the best effect. They were all in the tent.

Rem. It is remarkable that Deborah knew all these details.

J.T. It suggests the perfectly good relations that existed. Had Deborah been jealous of her sister she might have neglected all this. The nobles' bowl would mean that Jael was a woman of quality. God meets quality with quality. Sisera represented quality in a worldly sense. Jael represented quality in a spiritual sense; the vessel that belonged to nobles would suggest that.

A.F.N. What about verse 26?

J.T. It goes on: "She put her hand to the tent-pin, And her right hand to the workmen's hammer". You descend from the nobles' bowl to the workmen's hammer. She knew how to use that implement; she was not left-handed. That is to say, it is order here. In Ehud's case it was irregular, the left hand. Peter took hold of the right hand in raising up the lame man (Acts 3:7); it is the divine order, indicating strength. That was the hand Jael used.

C.B. The whole truth.

J.T. That is Ephesians. You act according to God in a skilful and powerful way. The next thing is: "She smote Sisera, she struck through his head" (verse 26). That is the thing. It is not a matter of dealing with outposts. Saul dealt with them (1 Samuel 10:5); but David, in meeting Goliath, had to do with the champion of Philistine power. He smote him in the head. Jael smites Sisera there also. Hazor was the centre of the oppression. Ephesians shows where the centre of opposition is; it is not mere detail; it is principalities, powers in the heavenlies; it is the universal lords of this darkness.

A.N.W. The struggle is not against blood and flesh.

Rem. I suppose with Eglon it was the lower passions and evil lusts and motives which corrupt; but here it is the intelligence.

J.T. It is man's mind in opposition to God.

W.M. It speaks of the Lord prophetically as crushing the serpent's head, (Genesis 3:15).

J.T. Satan has been met, the Lord has annulled him; he is not literally destroyed yet, but he is nullified for faith.

A.F.M. As with Goliath, the stone sank into his forehead. What would you say about verse 27? "Between her feet he bowed, he fell, he lay down".

J.T. It is in keeping with what we have been saying. It is a question of the complete overthrow of that which dominates, wherever it takes form. It is very beautiful to see how Deborah speaks about her sister; she is not "a little sister" to her. Sometimes we have to deal with meetings in that way, through lack of formation in them. But here it is as on equal terms. The working of love amongst us gives the credit to others. You go to Ephesians to get the full working of love in a universal way.

J.S. "Faith working through love", (Galatians 5:6).

J.T. "The love which ye have towards all the saints", (Ephesians 1:15). We should be rejoicing in what we hear as to what others have done. Jael's great exploit could not have damaged Deborah. It would only enhance her position. Deborah inaugurated the movement; Jael finished it. Barak represents headship. However poor the head may be, we must never lose sight of the fact that headship belongs to man.

Ques. What does the mother of Sisera represent?

J.T. There is a difference between the mother of Sisera and a mother in Israel. Sisera was her progeny, a great oppressor of the people of God. It is not hard to find her. She is the one who begets the great oppressors of the people of God.

A.F.M. It is Rome, I suppose.

W.M. The way Deborah speaks of Jael reminds one of Philippians 2:4: "Regarding not each his own qualities, but each those of others also".

J.T. It would encourage attention to commendable details in another.

A.J.D. What would you say about, "Shattered and pierced through his temples" (chapter 5:26)?

J.T. I suppose that would indicate the completeness of the work. In David's case he brought Goliath down with a stone, typically the word of God. But he was not content with that; he took Goliath's own sword, and cut off his head, and took the head to Jerusalem (1 Samuel 17), suggestive of leading captivity captive. The head of Goliath was thus in the centre of God's system, Jerusalem, as the evidence of the complete overthrow of the devil.

Rem. I suppose the mother of Sisera would answer to Babylon -- "Happy he that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the rock", (Psalm 137:9). The children of that system should be utterly destroyed.

Ques. What about the sun rising in its might?

J.T. It is the complete domination of Christ in a benign way, as against Jabin and Sisera, who prefigure the universal lords of this darkness. I suppose, apart from those in the truth, Satan is the most intelligent of God's creatures, and uses his great intelligence by means of counsel -- like the gates of hades. It would be on that line to secure results. So that the struggle here is against the head and centre of satanic power. Now the sun is over against that; how benign and glorious it is, dispelling the darkness as it rises! What takes the place eventually of all this darkness is the church, coming down out of heaven from God, having the glory of God; she will shine like Christ.

A.R. There is no need of the sun there.

J.T. Not in the church; but from it there will radiate all the light of God upon this dark world.

W.B-w. It is a kind of prayer: "But let them that love him be as the rising of the sun in its might" (verse 31).

J.T. It shows the great thought of Deborah; she would

voice the mind of God as to what He was going to do.

A.J.D. "Let them ... be" would have present application.

J.T. It suggests how we are to shine here. God would always give a light to David (see Psalm 132:17). The point is, do we love God?

Ques. Would you say that love really is the background to the writing of Revelation in which there is so much judgment?

J.T. Revelation brings the saints in as the reflection of the light of heaven. The elders have spiritual intelligence and would be over against the universal lords of this darkness. They know what to do. And then there is the great universal thought in the assembly coming out, her shining like a most precious stone, as a crystal-like jasper stone.

B.T.F. Does the Lord take up His power on earth in connection with this?

J.T. Yes. He is known through the church. The great desire in the end as regards those who love God, finds its answer in the church.

J.S. Loving God suggests the rising sun, which is Christ; and then the land rests forty years.

A.F.M. Rest would have an end in view. There are periods of warfare and then periods of rest in this book. Would rest be to develop in us the truth of the church?

J.T. After war there is opportunity to develop family affections and moral growth. "The assemblies then throughout the whole of Judaea and Galilee and Samaria had peace, being edified and walking in the fear of the Lord, and were increased through the comfort of the Holy Spirit", (Acts 9:31).

W.B-w. Is something in connection with the battle set forth in the torrent Kishon?.

J.T. I think what you get there is the display of God's military skill. I suppose for light in military affairs we should go to Joshua who is the great military leader. But

even he gave place to another who said: "As captain of the army of Jehovah am I now come", (Joshua 5:14). If God is going to enter into battle, as He will by and by, this will be the great battlefield of the world, "the waters of Megiddo", (Judges 5:19). But for us it is spiritual. We are to be strong in the Lord in Ephesians, it is the Lord. The lordship of Christ in Ephesians is not simply to subdue our wills but to act against Satan. It is a military position. And so if He is in command, He will draw the enemy to a place of advantage to the saints and disadvantage to him. That is a great point in military tactics. So that Deborah indicated for Israel the position having every advantage for the attack. The river Kishon is sometimes dried up; it is no great river; water might or might not be there. It is a question of God's ordering and will. It is all a matter of depending upon God. God might send a torrential rain, which doubtless He did, for the Canaanites were swept away.

G.McP. It is like the exceeding greatness of God's power.

Rem. So that there are no accidents or mere happenings in spiritual warfare.

J.T. If you are with God, everything goes well.

A.J.D. And we are to be strong in the Lord as having to meet universal lords of this darkness.

THE SPIRIT OF JUDGMENT (4)

Judges 6:11 - 24; Judges 7:19 - 22; Judges 8:18 - 19

J.T. The last two verses read serve as a clue to what is in mind in this section in connection with the brethren in their relation to Christ -- not to one another, but as in resemblance to Christ.

G.W.H. "The sons of a king"?

J.T. Yes. So that we are reaching elevation in Gideon. He has to be taken as a counterpart of what we had this morning, the counterpart of Deborah's ministry. Deborah's ministry, with Barak, is Jehovah's commandment which is kept by those who love God. Gideon's ministry is on a higher level, so to speak, in that we have a divine appearing. And consequent upon that we have a spiritual transaction between God and Gideon.

G.W.H. This would be in contrast to communications that might come through another.

J.T. Yes. The relations with God are more immediate and intimate. I think that the narrative is to bring out Gideon personally. The prophetic ministry in this section is through another, a nameless person (chapter 6:8), but a prophet; it is not as with Deborah. Gideon brings out rather Christ personally, in type.

Rem. The climax is in the last verses read.

J.T. And so I thought they should be specially before us.

Ques. Have you any thought as to why it is "my mother" and not my father?

J.T. It carries on the maternal side, as Deborah was a mother in Israel. The idea of the mother is there in Deborah, without any product being mentioned. It is simply the maternal idea; whereas here you have a product, "the sons of my mother". They were like Gideon, "the sons of a king". She had a high ideal:

"Each one resembled the sons of a king". Probably this was beyond anything Israel had seen, they having no king, but she anticipated royalty in her children.

Rem. "Jerusalem above ... which is our mother", (Galatians 4:26).

J.T. Just so. "Jerusalem ... is the city of the great King", (Matthew 5:35). The idea of the king goes with the city.

W.M. Do you not think there might be included in it the fact that nothing but a subjective state will meet public failure? Objective truth is not so much needed as subjective conditions.

J.T. That is the point in these two sections. Then, after Gideon you have antichrist in Abimelech, which is another course leading up to Samson. In connection with Samson we get a divine appearing similar to what we have here. These divine appearings are special, because through each you get a distinctly new feature. With Deborah it is a question of what was there -- the commandment; if people hear not Moses and the prophets, one rising from the dead cannot persuade them (see Luke 16:31). But a divine appearing contemplates impressionableness in the person or persons appeared to, and brings in something distinctive. It is God's way. He has a hand in things here, and comes in so as to impress and give character to those in whom He is working.

Rem. The mother line runs through Samson and Samuel.

J.T. That idea is continued through the period of the judges.

Ques. Where the appearings are lacking, is it because of the condition of the people?

J.T. I think so. In Gideon himself you have a condition that God could recognise, hence the appearing. There is no doubt that an appearing is intended to convey something that had never been here before.

A.R.S. That is what I thought. Saul got the heavenly side, the revelation of God's Son, (Acts 9).

J.T. The idea of an appearing is seen in the first one, that to Abraham: "The God of glory appeared", (Acts 7:2). It suggests variety of glory. You cannot limit that; it is a question of God. How very distinctive that was!

A.F.M. The appearing to Gideon would be in relation to the condition of the people. This character of oppression had not been before.

J.T. It was an oppression in connection with food. It had in view to rob the people of food. And so the appearing is to one who is taking care of the food, threshing wheat to hide it from the Midianites. And when God appears Gideon has something to offer to Him. That is a great point; whether there is food for God, for in the food God must have His part, see Numbers 28.

A.N.W. Why is it angelic?

J.T. It was the time of the ministry of angels, but it is a divine appearing. It is the mode of God's intervention. It says, "And Jehovah looked upon him". Jehovah Himself is there.

A.N.W. Is it an advance on the Spirit of Jehovah coming on Othniel?

J.T. It is. The Spirit of Jehovah had already come on persons, but a divine appearing goes further, and is always distinct and new.

Rem. The form of the pressure has something to do with the form of the appearing, whether in Mesopotamia or in Canaan; this time it is the Midianites, descendants of Abraham through Keturah. There would be a corresponding character about it.

J.T. There is a certain natural link with the people of God in Midian. I think that the social side is in view in Midian; it is that side which seduces the people of God. Here they are associated with "Amalek, and the children of the east", and they "destroyed the produce of the

land ... and they left no sustenance in Israel" (chapter 6:3,4).

A.F.M. How would you apply this lack of food today?

J.T. The enemy is always seeking to destroy the food supply. There is here an immense number of Midianites allied with the Amalekites. It is the form in which the flesh appears as claiming equal status with the people of God, which, if admitted, involves corruption and the taking away of the heavenly food. Gideon is able to present food to God. He presented it in courses: the flesh was in a basket and the broth in a pot. All is served according to God and accepted by Him.

J.S. It is like setting forth things in order.

J.T. Well, it is the order of God. I have no doubt that the Lord's supper presents the great idea of food, and divine order is connected with it.

Rem. At the appearing to Abraham at Mamre (Genesis 18), Abraham knew what was suitable; possibly Gideon benefited by that.

J.T. As a spiritual man he would, no doubt, know about that, and so acquire ability to present food to God.

G.W.H. He was in touch with what had passed; he speaks of the "miracles that our fathers told us of".

J.T. And now he has food in the wine-press; this may suggest that he had been through the pressure occasioned by the Midianites. The Angel sits under the terebinth, having peculiar interest in Gideon. Sitting would indicate that the matter on hand required definite time and deliberation; it was all of great importance to heaven.

J.S. His exercises were pleasurable to heaven.

A.F.M. As having food for God, he evidently had a sufficiency, although the people generally lacked food. You can only offer of what you possess.

J.T. A man is accepted according to what he has.

Gideon threshed wheat in the wine-press. A wine-press would be a place of small proportions for such an operation. It was not like the threshing-floor of Ornan, which was a large place, for David bought it with the idea of having plenty of scope for the house. A wine-press is contracted, and suggests pressure; we need contraction in view of enlargement. But although he was threshing the wheat under such limitations, he was obtaining the food. In threshing the wheat, he was acting against the enemy. This is important to note.

Rem. Would this be suggestive of what the blessed Lord went through at Gethsemane? He was there under deep pressure and at great cost to open the whole scope of God's riches.

J.T. Gethsemane is pressure; the word conveys the thought of wine-press.

W.B-w. Does Gideon's exercise involve the lifting of things from the Midianites' level to a higher level?

J.T. Yes, from the level of the social order which would claim distinction in the flesh. Midian and Amalek are the flesh. Midian claims distinction in the flesh. God is raising things to another level and Gideon is up to it.

J.S. Would the word, "mighty man of valour" imply secret history?

J.T. I think it would. Of course, it would be potential here.

A.J.D. The Angel says, "Jehovah is with thee".

W.M. It was very pleasurable to God that Gideon was considering while he was threshing wheat. As Paul said to Timothy, "Think of what I say, for the Lord will give thee understanding in all things",(2 Timothy 2:7).

J.T. His mind was filled with the terrible oppression of the enemy; he was impressed with it. God knew all that exercise, for He knows the thoughts of our hearts.

Rem. Possibly we do not think much in this way.

J.T. Well, I believe that is the suggestion here: whether in one's ordinary employment one thinks of the needs of the saints.

A.F.M. There is something important in this movement of Gideon's. He considers first for God. The widow of Zarephath first brings to the prophet a little cake, and thus secures provision for all the famine time. So that if God is first, the people are sure to be considered.

J.T. That is important. Where God is working you will find His claims recognised. "And Jehovah looked upon him, and said, Go in this thy might, and thou shalt save Israel from the hand of Midian. Have not I sent thee?" And then Gideon says, "If now I have found favour in thine eyes, shew me a sign that it is thou who talkest with me. Depart not hence, I pray thee, until I come unto thee, and bring forth my present, and set it before thee". There you have some insight into the character of the man. He has confidence enough to ask God to wait, which is very remarkable here. He waited for Abraham under similar circumstances. God waits for Gideon to prepare the food, and it involves considerable time. But he would know that Abraham had done the same thing, only on that occasion the three men were standing; here Jehovah is sitting, and offers to wait. It is a very beautiful touch.

Rem. Morally it is as great as when "Jehovah hearkened to the voice of a man" and the sun stood still, (Joshua 10:14).

J.T. What follows is what Gideon can provide and do. So that now it is a question of what one can present to God; Gideon says, "My present"; it tests me as to what I can present to God.

G.W.H. It is what he has.

J.T. "A man is accepted according to what he may have" (2 Corinthians. 8:12); it is what I can present. So he says, "My present"; it would be the very best he could give. Jehovah said, "I will tarry until thou come again".

God is committing Himself to him now. "And Gideon went in, and made ready a kid of the goats, and an ephah of flour in unleavened cakes; the flesh he put in a basket, and he put the broth in a pot, and brought it out to him under the terebinth, and presented it". Now we have to follow all this, because he is a type of Christ giving a lead spiritually. In Deborah you have the prophetess and the military movement at the command of the Lord: that was on a lower level. Here it is approach to God -- knowing how to present to Him. What can I do in this way? I may copy others, but when I come to a manifestation of God, what can I do then? One is entirely dependent on what he is according to God. It is a question of entering the spiritual realm.

Rem. Here the Lord waits until Gideon comes; often we wait until the Lord comes.

J.T. I think the Lord is giving occasion to show what was in him. He well knew what was there, but would let Gideon show what was in him; because in entering the spiritual realm it is what one is spiritually that counts.

W.B-w. In Acts 1 the Lord presented Himself living, and Peter in chapter 9 presented Dorcas living.

J.T. Acts 1 brings in the spiritual idea. The Lord was seen during forty days after He arose, in a spiritual body.

A.J.D. What would the Angel's appearance suggest?

J.T. An impression of Christ under these peculiar circumstances. It is an appearing.

G.W.H. And it would leave a lasting impression too.

J.T. Quite. Gideon would never lose it.

W.B-w. We are already lifted above the Midianitish element.

J.T. What we see is a man taken out of the wine-press to minister to God! God is pleased with what Gideon is doing. He is delighted with our movements at the time of a conference, for example; and also in our prayers which have gone up for months back, in view of this occasion; and now there is opportunity to minister to Him formally.

A.L-k. The Angel of the Lord did not partake of the food.

J.T. Why should you say that? It says, "And the Angel of God said to him, Take the flesh and the unleavened cakes, and lay them upon this rock, and pour out the broth. And he did so. And the Angel of Jehovah put forth the end of the staff that was in his hand, and touched the flesh and the unleavened cakes; and there rose up fire out of the rock, and consumed the flesh and the unleavened cakes. And the Angel of Jehovah departed out of his sight".

Do you think there was odour there? We must not liken God to a man; here Gideon's "present" is accepted.

Rem. It was really a savour ascending to heaven where the Angel belonged.

J.T. Heaven was refreshed. "Jehovah smelled the sweet odour", (Genesis 8:21).

J.S. It is like the result in John 12 after all the pressure there.

Rem. The odour of the ointment filled the house.

A.N.W. Why was Gideon left free up to a point, and then he receives directions?

J.T. It was to bring out what was in him.

J.T.Jr. He is really a son led by the Spirit of God.

J.T. Yes. Only he receives directions from the Angel: "Take the flesh and the unleavened cakes, and lay them upon this rock". This was all delightful to heaven.

A.F.M. What are the rock and the fire? Have they any allusion to Christ and to His sufferings?

J.T. I think so. The rock alludes to Christ, it always brings Him in; He is the foundation on which everything rests.

G.McP. The burnt-offering would be wholly consumed, and we see this here.

W.M. Elijah said, "The god that answers by fire, let him be God", (1 Kings 18:24). It was God's way of recognising the offering.

J.T. Then "the staff" in the Angel's hand would indicate that there was a journey, and that God had entered into all this. The Lord says, "My Father worketh hitherto and I work", (John 5:17). God's work was going on hitherto; so that this was not new to God. The staff would indicate what had gone before.

J.S. And God still is journeying with His people.

J.T. He says to David, "Since the day that I brought up the children of Israel out of Egypt, even to this day, ... I went about in a tent and in a tabernacle", (2 Samuel 7:6). There is no cessation of the activity of divine love.

W.B-w. Is the fire the answer on God's part?

J.T. God answers by fire.

R.D.G. In the case of Elijah it came down; here it rises up.

J.T. The fire as applied to the offering, brings out its perfection. The staff which the Angel had in his hand would point to the authority of God. He touched the offering with it, and fire rose up out of the rock and consumed it.

J.S. It is different from what had gone before; previously water had come from the rock; here it is fire for the sacrifice.

Rem. The reference to the staff is very interesting, because the word of the prophet is: "Thus saith Jehovah the God of Israel: I brought you up from Egypt, and brought you forth out of the house of bondage; and I delivered you out of the hand of the Egyptians, and out of the hand of all that oppressed you, and drove them out from before you, and gave you their land". God would continue in relation with what has been before.

J.T. The staff is very much like the synoptic gospels as compared with John. I think the account of things in chapter 13, where the Angel ascends is more John's line. The synoptic gospels connect the Lord's ministry with what preceded. But in John it is "the beginning". I think

the staff and the rock here suggest what had taken place in relation to previous operations of God.

B.T.F. The wine-press would speak of the death of Christ, and then the offering would come from one who had entered into that.

J.T. So that you have a burnt-offering here.

W.B-w. Matthew and Mark refer to food in the institution of the Supper.

J.T. Yes. Neither of them says anything about the Supper as a memorial.

G.W.H. That is Luke.

J.T. Yes, Luke alone. But the three writers link on the truth with God's previous operations, whereas John introduces christianity as new and apart from what had been before. He brings in Christ as the beginning of everything.

A.F.M. You get the idea of God's previous operations from the resurrection being "on the morrow of the Sabbath", (Luke 24:1).

J.T. Yes. Whereas in John it is the first day of the week. The New Translation emphasises the distinction in this respect between the synoptic gospels and John.

A.A.T. Up to this point Gideon had not known the person he was talking to. He perceived he was an Angel; but before that he addressed him as Lord.

J.T. He saw clearly that he was a divine representative; but feared the after consequences of having seen an Angel of the Lord. He had more confidence in his actual presence, than after he departed. When the divine presence is withdrawn we too are apt to falter. Gideon faltered after the Angel's departure, as it says, "The Angel of Jehovah departed out of his sight". It is very much like the position of the disciples in Acts 1:9, "A cloud received him out of their sight". The faith period then began; and it was a question of whether they could hold on after the Lord had left. "Ye believe

on God, believe also on me" (John 14:1), the Lord had said. Gideon's faith was tested at this point.

G.W.H. And we know something of that too!

J.T. Yes. It is easier to believe when you are surrounded by the saints, and the presence of God is enjoyed in the meeting; but when alone your faith is liable to waver. So it says, "And Gideon perceived that he was an angel of Jehovah; and Gideon said, Alas, Lord Jehovah! for because I have seen an angel of Jehovah face to face ...". There is a hiatus there, as though God would not allow him to go the full way. He anticipates Gideon by saying, "Peace be unto thee: fear not; thou shalt not die".

Rem. Jacob could say, "I have seen God face to face, and my life has been preserved", (Genesis 32:30).

H.S.D. How about the altar?

J.T. It is called, "Jehovah of Peace". A man's altar indicates the point he has reached in his soul.

H.S.D. He built it and named it.

J.T. It was his altar. Your altar indicates your spiritual stature.

H.S.D. Was he established now in the fact that he was accepted?

J.T. He is answering to the light vouchsafed to him.

B.T.F. You were saying that when the Angel departed Gideon began to doubt. But the point is, that while one's faith may waver, true affection for Christ will not.

J.T. Quite. Then God comes in here. Gideon speaks to God; and Jehovah said to him, "Peace be unto thee: fear not; thou shalt not die". And then Gideon builds his altar; and it is said: "To this day it is yet in Ophrah of the Abi-ezrites". It is a permanent thing.

Then you have "the second bullock"; "And it came to pass the same night, that Jehovah said to him, Take the young bullock, which thy father hath, even the second bullock of seven years old, and throw down the

altar of Baal that thy father hath, and cut down the Asherah that is by it; and build an altar to Jehovah thy God upon the top of this strong place in the ordered manner [note the question of order], and take the second bullock, and offer up a burnt-offering with the wood of the Asherah that thou shalt cut down. And Gideon took ten men of his servants, and did as Jehovah had said to him. And it came to pass, because he feared his father's house, and the men of the city, if he did it by day, that he did it by night" (verses 25 - 27). This second bullock is the next point in the instruction; it means that in this revival God had passed by somebody. It is a very searching thing. Am I going to be passed by, or chosen? If God is doing something, we do not want to be passed by.

G.McP. It was a young bullock.

J.T. Yes, but it was seven years old -- suggesting matured experience.

A.F.M. The Lord would have passed the disciples by because of their unbelief, when He walked on the water.

J.T. If God is moving on, I do not want to be passed by. It is a word for older brethren.

Rem. They saw Him, which is the secret of His not passing them by.

J.T. The Lord "would have" done it (Mark 6:48); it was intentional on His part. Why did God pass the first bullock by? That is the point.

Ques. Why did God pass by the seven sons of Jesse, and take David?

Rem. The bullock was seven years old, as was remarked.

J.T. But he is called a young one. It is a question of the new man as in Colossians. How ever long one may have been in the truth, how ever many years one may have been in fellowship he is to retain his freshness.

Rem. Moses was, so to speak, as a young bullock at the end of his days.

W.M. Barnabas and Saul were young men when they commenced work.

J.T. A bullock of seven years would be relatively as old as a man of fifty or sixty. It is a question of retaining youthfulness in advanced years.

W.M. The other bullock was too old!

J.T. There may be any number of years you like to speak of, passed as a believer, but be sure you can be called young; it is a question of freshness.

A.F.M. It is like the new man of Colossians, as you said.

J.T. "New" there refers to youth; it is the new man which we are said to have put on. It is "renewed into full knowledge"; "renewed" there, is that there is no knowledge like it. There are two words referring to newness used in the passage (Colossians 3:10): one refers to youthfulness, the other is used in the sense of not having existed before.

N.McC. You said the passing by of the first bullock was a word to older brethren. Will you finish that?

J.T. I think it is that God will never pass any one by unless He is obliged to do so.

G.McP. The bullock is the greatest of the offerings.

J.T. Here the offering would point to the spiritual wealth that entered into the ministry of Gideon. He worked under disadvantages, for the material required belonged to Gideon's father, and his father's house might be against him. Thus he threw down the altar of Baal and built the altar to Jehovah by night, because he was afraid to do it by day; but he did the work.

Rem. He took ten men of his servants to help him.

J.T. The question is, has this man power in his father's house? He was a member of a family; what influence had he there?

Rem. Full responsibility would be in the ten men. The operation here, involving Gideon's father's property, suggests that God's rights are to rise above the natural.

J.T. And the father came to it. Gideon would convey in what he had done, that he had acted for God who must have precedence in everything.

W.B-w. In result he would bring the whole family out of the system of idolatry, and on to the level of the true worship of God.

J.T. Joash's house would be exposed to Midianitish influence, for he was an idolater. But idolatry is overthrown; Gideon's action brought out the great moral power he had in the household.

J.S. The house became a stronghold for the truth.

J.T. Which corresponds to the rock on which the offering was made; there was nothing uncertain about the position so far reached.

Ques. What about the "ordered manner", (chapter 6:26)?

J.T. It refers back to Horeb in connection with the priestly order. Gideon had shown himself to be a priest, and he must always act in a priestly way.

Rem. All must be done in faith if it is to stand.

W.M. The Lord took twelve men to do God's work; it was perfect administration.

J.T. Twelve is administration, not responsibility. It is a question of whether we can act together in love. Twelve is very divisible; we may be divided up in service, but love is never weakened by it.

A.F.N. This new altar built would give Gideon ability to deal with the enemy.

J.T. The altar of Baal would suggest; "other lords than thee have had dominion over us", (Isaiah 26:13). So its overthrow is a question of the family being delivered from the authority of darkness in view of the approaching conflict.

R.W.S. Gideon's brethren do not appear here, and were later slain.

J.T. They are brought in (chapter 8:18 - 21) to complete the subject. They were slain at Tabor. The link there, no doubt, is with what we had this morning. The great conflict was at Tabor.

Rem. They had been morally formed by Gideon, for they were like him.

W.B-w. What is the difference between the two altars?

J.T. The first was a personal matter: Jehovah-shalom is what he had acquired in his relations with God. But the second altar is in relation to his father's house, and the overthrow of idolatry in the whole family realm.

G.W.H. The second altar is reared by divine command; the other, of his own volition.

J.T. Quite. The second was in the "ordered manner"; it has a public bearing in testimony to God's rights.

Rem. And after this the Spirit of Jehovah came upon him, (chapter 6:34).

J.T. He is qualified for the service and God commits Himself to him for it.

The great reducing principle in the next chapter (7) is to be noted; we should pay especial attention to this principle of reduction. I believe the economy of the assembly, among other things, is intended to keep us small; such as, small local companies who merge, when necessary, as we saw in Deborah, from the local idea into the universal idea. I can only take in the universal as I am formed in love. It tends to love in the local company, and merge from that into the universal.

W.B-w. The commandment connects with Corinthians, whereas the universal is Ephesians.

J.T. Colossians and Ephesians -- Jael is the gentiles brought in. Deborah merged from the local setting into the general setting in the conflict. But in Gideon you have reduction greatly emphasised, an army of thirty-two thousand men brought down to ten thousand; then to three hundred; then they are separated into three companies of one hundred each. All that means spiritual refinement in public reduction, which God is aiming at now. Contentment in small companies is the negation of the flesh in us and fits us for general conflict.

G.W.H. And there is a great increase of love.

W.B-w. Would you ever give up in your mind the thirty-two thousand?

J.T. The thirty-two thousand would lead to reliance on human strength. Twenty-two thousand of them went back; they did not want to go to the battle. There was a further testing at the water, which reduced their fighting numbers to three hundred. It was a poor thing for warriors not to be able to partake of water without lying down to drink it.

Rem. Gideon's men were as poured from vessel to vessel.

Rem. So you would look for smaller meetings, but also for quality.

J.T. Quality and unity is the idea. We further see how God helped Gideon at every point: He goes down with Phurah to the outside of the camp, and hears one telling a dream about a cake of barley bread tumbling into the camp! It is here a question of food, and how acquired. It is Christ, but in the form of food. Not grain cut down and presented in a sheaf as in Leviticus 23; it is a cake that had been baked. It is Christ formed in the affections of the saints through exercise.

Rem. The barley cake was greater than the three hundred or the thirty-two thousand, because it was Christ.

W.M. It came in in an irregular way.

J.T. It "tumbled" in, it is informal, but involved the complete overthrow of the Midianites. The tent was smitten, it overturned and lay along.

G.W.H. It is what is in the saints, spiritual maturity as pre-figured in the cake.

J.T. I think so. Maturity runs through this section; judgeship in Gideon. And then the brethren of Gideon; they are a fine subject; Zebah and Zalmunna say of them, "As thou art, so were they". The enemies of Gideon were themselves the judges as to the excellent quality of his brethren. These men typically are like

Christ. The enemy may traduce us and even slay us, but they are compelled to admit a likeness to Christ.

J.S. These numbers reduced to three hundred would involve intensified exercise.

J.T. You come down to the cake, the product, as it were, of Gideon and his three hundred.

G.W.H. These kings say, "Each one resembled the sons of a king". Gideon says, "They were ... the sons of my mother". You get the outside impression as well as what Gideon says.

A.N.W. They were like royalty.

J.T. God has His own idea of royalty. Gabriel says of Christ, "He shall be great, and shall be called Son of the Highest; and the Lord God shall give him the throne of David his father; and he shall reign over the house of Jacob for the ages, and of his kingdom there shall not be an end", (Luke 1:32,33).

Rem. Referring again to meetings: you would not be discouraged with small meetings.

J.T. If they are not growing or are dying out, you would be discouraged. The idea is increase spiritually and in the number of meetings.

G.W.H. A meeting should divide if it gets too large.

W.N. We have only one meeting in R -- .

J.T. We all know that. We have been thinking about that for years, and wondering why there are not two or three meetings here!

THE SPIRIT OF JUDGMENT (5)

Judges 13:15 - 21; Judges 14:5 - 9; Judges 15:14 - 20; Judges 16:22, 28 - 30

J.T. Gideon's judgeship was basically right in that he asserted the principle that governed the time, which was that Jehovah should rule His people immediately, and that there should be no king save Him. The action of Abimelech later was to overthrow that. There is a certain analogy to this in the history of the church; with the revival of the truth of the dispensation, the rights of God being fully owned, a subsequent movement occurred with the intent of denying and nullifying it. Abimelech's attempt was to nullify the principle that Gideon asserted. The men of Israel would have made Gideon king, but he disclaimed all right to, or desire for kingship for himself or his son.

A.F.M. What was the feature of that evil movement?

J.T. That which we are gaining from now became interfered with; namely, the revival of the truth of the assembly. There was the desire to rule in a clerical way on the part of some. Abimelech was related to Gideon; it was therefore an evil rising from within, not from without -- a sort of antichristian movement from within.

A.F.M. Desiring to have a place of pre-eminence.

J.T. Yes. And Jotham's parable (chapter 9) met that in testimony; it was spoken from mount Gerizim and at a distance; but was spoken very plainly, as intending to show that only one who was worthless in himself would aspire to kingship. The thorn bush did this. The "trees" which were useful, and consciously so, renounced the thought of kingship. They preferred to maintain their own service. The fig, the olive, and the vine were conscious of rendering service, and refused to leave their function of bearing fruit.

A.F.M. They abode in the place which God assigned them.

W.M. A similar thing is pointed out by the apostle, Paul, who says, "From among your own selves shall rise up men speaking perverted things", (Acts 20:30). It does not say perverse things.

J.T. That was Abimelech. He had a certain relation with Gideon, but the whole position was perverted.

Rem. Perhaps those of us who know something of events of eighty years ago see application of this to the Newton movement.

J.T. I was thinking of that. It was not bad doctrine which came out at first, but the revival of clericalism.

A.F.M. Do you think that the revival of clericalism was to "draw away the disciples after them", as in Acts 20?

J.T. Yes, like Abimelech, he made an alliance with the Shechemites.

A.R. Was Abimelech's movement an attack against God who was to rule over the people?

J.T. Yes; it was definitely against God. And the offence was the more heinous because Gideon had asserted that God alone was to be King.

Rem. In this day men sin against the Holy Spirit in the same sense.

J.T. Reminding us of that remarkable tract, 'The Notion of a Clergyman; Dispensationally the Sin against the Holy Ghost'.

A.P. Where did Abimelech get the idea of being king?

J.T. It is what is in each of our hearts, and belongs to fallen man. It appeared in Nimrod; and, in connection with the people of God, the idea came in with the descendants of Esau; before there was any king in Israel, they had their kings. It is what man as after the flesh aspires to.

A.F.M. It did not conflict, with the desire of faith for a king, when "every man did what was right in his own eyes", (chapter 21:25).

J.T. God finally brought in a king; but Jehovah was to

be their King. And that is what Gideon asserted. We are brought into the kingdom of God. One great feature of the testimony today is the kingdom of God; it is the moral sway of God here.

Rem. I suppose in 1 Samuel the desire for a king was engendered by what was seen in the nations around; the influence of what surrounds us is terrible!

J.T. Yes. The epistle to the Romans brings in the kingdom of God, which is a moral thing. It is a mediatorial kingdom, but none the less God's kingdom, for the King is God.

A.F.M. That is, in Christ.

A.R. Is there any significance in Abimelech's relations gathering around him in chapter 9?

J.T. Well, they were his mother's brethren. He did not have a mother like Gideon. That was, doubtless, where the difficulty primarily lay.

G.W.H. So that the thought of kingship according to God is not inconsistent with this mediatorial system which is developed in Samuel, Kings, and Chronicles.

J.T. No. You come to the mediatorial side in chapter 13. The Angel's name is "wonderful". He did wondrously too. There is a foreshadowing of Christ who bears this name.

W.B-w. The overthrow of Abimelech was by a woman and a young man.

J.T. It is the feminine side; an unnamed woman crushed his skull. It is the same thing in character, as with Sisera and Goliath, the head is prominent. Satan works in opposing God through man's mental ability.

W.B-w. It says, "And a woman cast the upper stone of a handmill on Abimelech's head, and crushed his skull. Then he called hastily to the young man that carried his armour, and said to him, Draw thy sword, and slay me, that they say not of me, A woman killed him. And his young man thrust him through, and he died" (chapter 9:53,55).

J.T. The woman knew how to use what was ready to hand; no doubt she had often used it in domestic affairs.

J.S. Just as Samson used the jawbone of an ass.

J.T. Exactly. He found it.

J.S. Is Samson seen on a lower plane than Gideon?

J.T. It will be necessary to review the position clearly from chapter 13, so that Samson's ministry might be rightly understood, for many young people must be greatly puzzled as to how God could use a man like this at all. I think the incident of Manoah is somewhat higher: "the Angel ... ascended", it says. As to Gideon, we read: "the Angel of Jehovah departed out of his sight" (chapter 6:21).

Ques. Have you any thought why the name of Samson s mother is not given? In other cases the name is emphasised. Has this incident another point in view?

J.T. I think she represents a subjective condition, reflecting somewhat on those responsible. I think she represents what often occurs, that the general condition of a meeting may be beyond its leaders. The responsible ones may not be equal to the current state of the brethren, which is a great disadvantage. So that although Manoah prays for another visitation, and the prayer is answered, yet the visitation is again to the woman, not to him. I think he is slighted; his position is owned and his prayer answered, but the woman is honoured right through.

A.F.M. Would you give us a brief outline of the judges that intervene?

J.T. Just to touch on them: Abimelech is a type of antichrist, and a deadly blow is dealt him by a woman. There is a feminine element running through this book that is to be taken notice of; it insures victory for God. We must also note, alas! a feminine element in a bad sense, in the later chapters. There are two other judges following, Tola and Jair; then Jephthah, a man on very much lower ground than Gideon. There was great

general declension, after Gideon's judgeship, as chapter 10:6 - 9 shows. But "the children of Israel cried to Jehovah, saying We, have sinned against thee" (verse 10). The Ammonite attacks and Jephthah is called; he is an extraordinary man, really a sort of freebooter; and yet God uses him. I think this is to remind us that God acts to carry out His thoughts in ways different from what we might conjecture. Jephthah had remarkable knowledge of Scripture. There was evidently something hidden in the man that did not appear in his general conduct up to this time.

G.W.H. Something which God sees, for He "searches the hearts", (Romans 8:27).

A.F.M. The attack here (chapter 10:17) was from the wilderness side where the two and a half tribes were. Is there any significance in that? Does it suggest Romans and Numbers?

J.T. I think it is Romans, the truth of the gospel; the danger would be of being robbed of it. The children of Ammon claimed territory that God gave to Israel through Moses, not Joshua. It is a lower level, but most important. If we lose Romans, the foundations are gone. So Jephthah outlines the territory, and points out that Israel had possessed it for three hundred years. 'Why then did not Ammon contest it before?' he asks.

W.B-w. They sent for Jephthah saying, "Come, and be our captain, that we may fight against the children of Ammon" (chapter 11:6).

J.T. He did not want a position like Abimelech. God used him, which shows that there must have been a moral work in him. He is well able to outline the divine territory; and understands Israel's history. He says, "Israel took not away the land of Moab, nor the land of the children of Ammon" (verse 15), which is an important point. He does not strike a blow until he clearly lays out the case. There should be no war without the case being made clear; he was not entering blindly into the

struggle, nor does he wish his enemies to do so. Israel's cause was a righteous one. Of course, a great deal could be said of Jephthah, of how he uttered his words at Mizpah before the Lord; all of which shows that there was more in him than appeared on the surface. He is an example of the latent ability which may be among the people of God, but which is known only to God, and brought forward by Him as needed. We should be warned against pushing brothers forward for leadership: God's choice is usually hidden, and brought forward and promoted by Himself. Jephthah, however, was much behind Gideon in the traits of Christ; his conflict with Ephraim was very distressing.

G.W.H. It was so lacking of the wise, conciliatory spirit Gideon had shown.

A.F.M. There was not the same discipline or spiritual formation in Jephthah as in Gideon, nor the same judgeship.

H.S.D. He is mentioned in Hebrews 11.

G.W.H. Which shows there was faith.

A.R.S. Jephthah is primarily the people's selection, not God's.

J.T. Yes. But the Lord takes him on and uses him. As our brother remarked, he is honourably mentioned in Hebrews; such comments of the New Testament help us. There was faith and a knowledge of the territory of God. In a certain way there is an analogy in Luther. That was his point, really, Romans. He knew that much; and God uses us according to what we have. It is clear that Jephthah had a knowledge of the contested territory which God had given to Israel, and he would not forfeit one inch of it.

W.M. Why has Samson to deal with the Philistines more than with others?

J.T. This is an extended Philistine oppression. Shamgar's contact with the Philistines earlier evidently was when they were not generally oppressive; he slew six

hundred. It was an exploit against that class, a class which is always present. It is well to strike at them when you can. They represent a principle of the flesh in its bigness, as growing up in the land; and Shamgar struck successfully. But in Samson's time it was a long oppressive domination of forty years.

A.F.M. It appears that they came from Egypt, whence Israel came, but did not learn redemption.

J.T. They claimed a status because they were in the land. But they did not get there in God's way; they took the short cut; whereas, Israel came God's way.

A.F.M. The Philistines, as you said, were big; but Israel had to become small, they had to learn the way out of Egypt by death.

J.T. What Rahab did to the spies indicates what the Philistines did not do; she sent them out "another way", (James 2:25). The Philistines came to Canaan the ordinary way; but "another way" is the way that faith takes. Christendom is on the principle of the ordinary way, as were the Philistines; whereas, faith takes the other way, which brings in conflict. The Philistines are marked by the numeral five -- five cities, five lords; this developed into the numeral six -- six toes, six fingers. There is development in the position, and they became Israel's most potent enemies. They were finally subdued by David.

G.W.H. It says, "Jehovah gave them into the hand of the Philistines forty years" (chapter 13:1). As though He had done it.

J.T. This character of discipline is seen right through the book. God allows different enemies to dominate. So that chapter 13 brings out His way of meeting this feature of oppression: He takes account of Manoah's wife.

G.W.H. He meets this enemy through Nazariteship.

J.T. But He begins by speaking first to the woman. That is a special feature running through this book; it is

the element represented by the woman, in a subjective and corrective way. It is not that all the people were marked by it, but that God is pleased to establish this principle.

A.F.M. Does this peculiar oppression give us a key to the declining state of the people?

J.T. I suppose it does. It is very solemn, that the form of the flesh typified in the Philistines should have been allowed to flourish until it dominated Israel. What has occurred in the history of the church is in view.

G.W.H. It would be through the breakdown of the responsible element.

J.T. Evidently. So that we have to carefully consider this chapter. The Angel appears to the woman with good tidings, and she relates the facts to her husband. Manoah is a remarkable kind of man; not only is he interested in the communication to his wife, but he prays to God to let the man of God come again. She says of the man of God, "His appearance was like the appearance of an angel of God" (verse 6). She had ability to discern in this person a heavenly visitant. How different he was from a Philistine! Manoah did not distinguish the Angel as his wife did; so that when he came the second time Manoah says, "What is thy name, that when thy word cometh to pass we may do thee honour?" Well, he was assuming quite a little in promising that he would do him honour. "Let us detain thee", Manoah says, "and we will make ready a kid of the goats for thee". We should notice that the Angel's answer suggests what is mediatorial: "If thou wilt offer a burnt-offering, thou shalt offer it up to Jehovah". He is asserting the rights of God, as the Lord Jesus did.

A.F.M. He is called "the Angel".

J.T. Yes. So Manoah's proposal to do him honour "when thy word cometh to pass" is poor. The angel says, "My name ... is wonderful". It is very poor to talk about honouring one so evidently great,

when his sayings come to pass. You can see how this name is expanded, for in Isaiah 9:6 Christ's "name is called Wonderful". And then the Angel immediately proceeds, as the offering is made, to do wonderful things. Manoah did not have to wait until his word came to pass; it was a question of discerning the greatness of the person before his eyes. People put things off to the coming of the Lord; but the point is what is now before us. The person is here whose name is wonderful, and he does wondrously. It says twice, "And Manoah and his wife looked on". They were brought to that point, of looking on.

W.M. Saints speak about the coming of the Lord, instead of what we have now. I suppose the event of His coming is not the hope of the church.

J.T. It is the Lord Himself. "Christ Jesus our hope", (1 Timothy 1:1). It is not exactly an event, but a Person that we have before us. Here He is doing wonderful things, in response to which, Manoah and his wife looked on and fell on their faces to the ground.

Ques. The inquiry of Manoah as to the Angel's name is like the Jews in John's gospel looking for signs; it was lack of faith.

J.T. Yes. The trouble was in not seeing who was there. So here the Angel ascends in the flame of the altar. The Lord says, "Behold, more than Solomon is here", and again, "Behold, more than Jonas is here", (Luke 11:31,32). It is not now a staff in the Angel's hand, as with Gideon. It is more like John's ministry, in this chapter. The staff connects with what God had been doing. Here it is, typically, the Lord Himself who is the beginning.

J.S. What He is in Himself. So that the Lord ascends in John.

W.M. It is not previous work or experience, but something new.

J.T. The Person Himself is in view. John has that in

mind -- to bring in the Person, who is greater than anything He does; it is Himself.

S.McC. The disciples "contemplated his glory", (John 1:14).

J.T. They saw what was there. It was said to John the baptist: "Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending and abiding on him, he it is who baptises with the Holy Spirit"; and John said: "I have seen and borne witness that this is the Son of God", (John 1:33,34). And yet the Son of God was not viewed as doing anything at that time; for the same John says, "In the midst of you stands, whom ye do not know, he who comes after me", (John 1:26).

J.E.N. I am glad for these thoughts as to John's gospel. There is no true beginning until Christ.

J.T. You have a real beginning, the Person Himself.

W.M. As we have it here, the responsible element fails; it is the woman, which is similar to John.

J.T. Women, as representing the work of God, are prominent in John's gospel.

A.N.W. The woman speaks of Him as Jehovah, but Manoah, as God.

J.T. It says, "Manoah knew that it was the Angel of Jehovah, And Manoah said to his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God" (verses 21,22). Manoah was the responsible element, he had a sense of responsibility to God, but he did not know God. The woman knew Him, and bases her remarks on that knowledge. She said, "If Jehovah were pleased to kill us, he would not have received a burnt-offering and an oblation at our hands, neither would he have showed us all these things, nor would he at this time have told us such things as these" (verse 23). I think that is excellent; she speaks from her knowledge of God. Manoah ought to have known these things, for both Abraham and Moses had seen God in the sense spoken of here; but he is not equal to the privileges accorded to him.

Rem. She turns (verse 23) to the name of revealed relationship, Jehovah.

J.T. Manoah's wife goes beyond Deborah; her reasons are based on her knowledge of God, as verse 23 shows.

Now coming to Samson, it may be well to point out, as was said already, that it must be a great puzzle to understand how God could use such a man. But if his life is taken up typically, it may be seen that God, in the history of the church, has done wonderful things in spite of adverse conditions. We have unmistakably, the Nazarite at the beginning, and then the death of Christ in a remarkable manner, both in the slaying of the lion and in the honey in its carcass; and the "fresh jawbone of an ass" points to the continued freshness of His death. Then there is reference to the Spirit in the drinking of the well of Lehi, and Colossian ground typified in the taking of the doors and bars of Gazah to the top of the mountain that is before Hebron. Samson's awful fall follows, brought about through the disclosure of the secret of his power from God. Then with the regrowth of his hair there is seen power which results in the overthrow of the world. The history unmistakably refers, not to a particular phase of the church, but to its whole history -- what God has done and will do despite the conditions described. The element of Nazariteship is seen running right through the history of the assembly, which shows that in however small a way or in whomsoever that element exists, God will surely recognise it and vindicate Himself.

P.A. Is there any subjective feature in the life of Samson?

J.T. The renewed growth of his hair and his exploits of power indicate that there was a work of God in him. He is one of the men of faith mentioned in Hebrews 11, and faith is an evidence of the work of God in one.

Rem. It says, "And the Spirit of Jehovah began to

move him at Mahaneh-Dan, between Zoreah and Eshtaol" (verse 25).

J.T. The Spirit began to move him in his own locality.

A.F.M. Are the people at the lowest ebb here? Whereas before, God generally delivered His people not only through the judge but through the people themselves, here it is by Samson alone and through Nazariteship.

J.T. I think the oppression here has to be taken account of as covering the whole history of the church in the antitype. Whether the element of Nazariteship is great, as it was at the beginning, or small as subsequently, or whether it is found running side by side with the greatest sins, such as the history of the church shows, yet God always is true to that principle, and power is there as the result.

Rem. I suppose, "Let a man prove himself" (1 Corinthians 11:28) would be Nazariteship preserved in freshness and vigour. If it is in evidence, it must be in relation to the Lord's supper.

J.T. It would be so. I have no doubt the position in chapter 15, the exploit at Lehi, alludes to the Lord's supper; it comes in there in the fresh jawbone. The Philistines spread over Lehi and Judah; that is, they were right among the leading tribe, which is most sorrowful. And those of Judah answer Samson, "Knowest thou not that the Philistines rule over us?" (verse 11). That is a most solemn admission; and they actually bind and deliver him over to them. This act of Judah foreshadowed that of the Jews in handing Christ over to the Romans.

J.S. "We have no king but Caesar", (John 19:15).

J.T. Yes. They handed the Lord over to His enemies, thinking they had triumphed; as no doubt Satan thought at Gethsemane and the cross. It says of Samson that the "Spirit of Jehovah came upon him, and the cords that were on his arms became as threads of flax that are burned with fire". That is to say, the power of God exhibited itself in regard to that which held him.

A.F.M. You refer to this as typical of Christ's death and resurrection?

J.T. Quite. Then it says, "And he found a fresh jawbone of an ass". Samson found it. I think that the figure runs on to the Lord's death as seen in the Lord's supper. It is not a mere historical matter; if it were only that, it would be as dry as the dry bones that Ezekiel saw in the valley. That is what the 'sacrament of the Lord's supper' is like in christendom; there is no freshness about it; it is just a religious observance with no sap in it at all. The Lord's supper implies that His death is an ever present thing, as if it happened this very day. It is never really and fully enjoyed except in this light; which makes it not a question of history simply, but enables us to enter into the present bearing of His death.

W.M. How do you apply the fresh jawbone to the Supper?

J.T. The death of Christ is brought to us in this fresh way. One might inquire as to that which is on the table. The answer would be, 'a loaf'. But the Lord said of it, when instituting His supper, "this is my body", (Matthew 26:26).

W.M. Do you mean that the ass represents Christ as become sin?

J.T. Of course an eastern ass is a noble domesticated creature, and typically it refers to Christ in that sense. Balaam's ass, for example, was a remarkable creature: It said, "Am not I thine ass, upon which thou hast ridden ever since I was thine to this day? was I ever wont to do so to thee?" (Numbers 22:30).

Rem. It was a faithful servant.

J.T. But the jawbone would refer to the state of Samson as a believer. He was dwelling in the cleft of the rock just prior to this slaughter of the Philistines. What had engaged him there? We must bear in mind that these exploits are not simply incidents, but are types. He judged Israel twenty years we are told; he was not always