Priesthood, Australasia and Great Britain, 1935 - 36 (Volume 140).

PRIESTHOOD DEPENDENT ON SONSHIP

1 Chronicles 17:11 - 17; 1 Chronicles 29:10 - 20

J.T. It will be well to say that our subject is to be priesthood -- continuing in it as seen in David. He was marked by the exercise of priesthood when the ark was brought to Zion, and it is said that he was clad with a linen ephod, and danced before it, (2 Samuel 6). Linen suggests balance and sobriety in this connection -- it naturally absorbs heat. There are two words used in regard to the fabrics employed in the priestly garments and the tabernacle furnishings. One seems to convey whiteness and fineness, whatever the basic material; the word generally in Exodus is that. But then we have a word that conveys the idea of linen worn particularly by the high priest on the day of atonement; that is, typically, as Christ entered into death: there is a suggestion in it of holy sobriety and balance. The same thought would apply to David as wearing the linen ephod; he was very energetic in his service; he danced "with all his might;" and this might seem to be undue exuberance, but the linen would point to the opposite of that. There was sufficient to move him, and yet it was in holy solemnity and balance, so that there was no allowance of fleshly feeling which is always ready to show itself in our service before God. When it does show itself -- that is, natural exuberance or excitement -- it is just strange fire.

What is before us in these two passages in Chronicles is priesthood, based on sonship; so far we have not had this side, although priesthood is properly based on sonship, however we look at it, for it is Christ as Son who is the Priest, the Son, constituted a Priest forever, after the order of Melchisedec.

We have not had this so far, and it appears first in chapter 17, the passage that corresponds with 2 Samuel 7. What it says here in Chronicles, as in 2 Samuel 7, is that David is forbidden to build the house, that is, he is not qualified. Viewed as a warrior, even although he had exercised priesthood, he is not qualified to build the house. It was to be built by the son and the message sent to him through Nathan, according to what we read, calls attention to the son, saying, "And it shall come to pass, when thy days are fulfilled that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom. It is he who shall build me a house, and I will establish his throne for ever. I will be his father, and he shall be my son; and I will not take away my mercy from him". As this message is received, the passage says, "And king David went in and sat before Jehovah". He accepts the mind of God unqualifiedly, and understands that sonship is now henceforth to be the basis of God's relations with Israel; he moves himself as in that light. "And king David went in and sat before Jehovah, and said ..." He is acting still as a priest; he is taking the liberties that belong to a priest, but he is also taking the ground of sonship; he sat before Jehovah, or tarried, it may be rendered, meaning that he had full liberty to be there.

Rem. Abiathar does not come in here, it is sonship; a nearer place.

J.T. Yes, the idea of Abiathar does not enter into this part; he really stands in connection with the first book of Samuel. The office of high priest is more to encourage the young believer. In Hebrews 4:14, for instance, we read: "Having therefore a great high priest", and then in chapter 10 it is, "having a great priest", the word "high" is dropped in chapter 10, and I suppose sonship enters into

that, it is what Christ is personally; a great Priest.

Ques. Are you leading up to what we are as sons?

J.T. Well, it is to bring out that side, that we may see how the priesthood developed in David to the full thought of it in sonship. We do not get the thought of son in this sense spoken of earlier, I think; as sonship is introduced David went in and sat before the Lord. He had full liberty; the usual posture for a priest in this respect is to stand before Jehovah.

Ques. Is the priesthood in connection with sonship how we stand in relation to God?

J.T. Yes, and the liberty in which we are. Eli sat by the door-post; but apart from sonship that attitude is simply fleshly-mindedness. It is only as in sonship that we have the spirit of sonship. We are sons before God; He has pleasure in us.

Ques. Is sonship going to supersede priesthood?

J.T. It continues when priesthood is no longer needed. Sonship is an abiding thought, it is a primary thought with God. All primary thoughts are abiding ones. Priesthood is a provisional thought, the necessity for it arises from the results of sin in the world, or ignorance -- all these things are dealt with, then the thought of priesthood necessarily drops; it is not needed when there is no evil and no ignorance. Sonship is a great eternal thought, but it comes into the provisional state of things, and as sons the priests have liberty before God.

Ques. Are these thoughts to mark us eternally as sons?

J.T. Yes; that is what I thought we might see. What a great thought, that God is served by sons, but in the capacity of priests because of present conditions.

Rem. It gives a greatness to what we have before us now.

Ques. What is the thought in, "such a high priest became us"?

J.T. That means seeing how great the people are. It alludes to the saints. God is bringing many sons to glory. Glory is the ground taken in Hebrews. Solomon was not yet born, so here sonship is an abstract thought, but it enters into David's mind, and so he is in liberty; indeed he is called firstborn in Psalm 89:27. The allusion here in Chronicles is to Solomon, and he is said to be God's son; Jehovah says, "he shall be my son;" and "It is he who shall build me a house".

Rem. David sitting before Jehovah suggests the liberty of sonship. Although he had not the full light at that moment, he was in the liberty of it.

J.T. The mention of it set him free, it shows how receptive he was of divine thoughts. The more spiritual one is, the more receptive he is of divine thoughts.

Rem. He caught the mind of God, that the son must build the house.

J.T. Yes, and then it says, he sat, it may be said tarried, which would make it stronger, he had liberty to sit there, to stay there, he was not exactly serving, but you find what he said there exceeds in richness anything he had said before. The titles he gives Jehovah. He says Jehovah Elohim in verse 16, and again in verse 17. If you run down the passage, to the end of the chapter, you will see the variety of titles he employs. There is a peculiar richness in his speech, enhanced by the spirit he is in. The nearer we get to God, the more liberty we have, the richer our speakings, our worship.

Rem. The great intent of God in sending forth His Son was that we might receive sonship.

J.T. Well, that is the thought exactly. When the fulness of time was come. It had not yet come, because the Old Testament does not include the

"fulness of time", but it does in a typical way. We are dealing here with types, all this awaited the incarnation.

Ques. What we have before us is very attractive. In regard to our Lord, are His greatest movements those seen in sonship?

J.T. I think that is how it seems in Scripture. He was not publicly owned as Son until He was thirty years of age. He was Son, of course, from the outset -- "Thou art my Son: this day have I begotten thee" (Hebrews 1:5). He was God's Son from the outset, but it awaited His full manhood for heaven to proclaim Him as Son, and then the heavens were opened to Him. That is a very important matter. John's gospel takes up this great thought. John the baptist is employed by the Spirit there to enlarge on Christ's Person. It was said to him, "Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending and abiding on him, he it is who baptises with the Holy Spirit" (John 1:33). And then John says, "And I have seen and borne witness that this is the Son of God". That is the One upon whom the Spirit descended, and He abode upon Him. The next day John saw Him walking. His movements are enhanced in the eyes of John the baptist by the knowledge he had of His Person.

Rem. John the evangelist would in his gospel keep it in view, somewhat as distinct from Luke's way of putting things, although in Luke we have our Lord's sonship brought before us.

J.T. Yes, we have the thought of the Son announced to Mary: "the holy thing ... shall be called Son of God" (Luke 1:35). "Shall be called" -- it does not say He was or had been. He shall be called, that is, it is the general thought that should follow. John says, "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we have contemplated his glory, a glory as of an only-begotten with a father),

full of grace and truth" (John 1:14). We contemplated it! It came within their range and they contemplated it. "An only-begotten with a father" -- that is the first word that John gives us as to sonship. It is descriptive, it is as an only-begotten with a father, that is a descriptive thought, a figurative thought, but it is to bring out the delightful relations He had as Man with God, which they saw. Then it says, "No one has seen God at any time; the only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him" (verse 18). This is the formal way that John the evangelist introduces this great subject, and then he brings in John the baptist. "John bears witness of him, and he has cried, saying, This was he of whom I said, He that comes after me is preferred before me". He brings in John the baptist immediately. John is greatly affected by the Person of Christ now coming within the range of his understanding. John the evangelist gives us John's history without reference to the message of doubt he sent to the Lord; he does not record any failure in John. The baptist disappears in John's narrative saying, "He must increase, but I must decrease" (John 3:30). He is full of the glorious Person who is Son of God. "And I have seen and borne witness that this is the Son of God" (John 1:34). This is the testimony of John, and you can see how it links on with christianity, so that it is very difficult to decide whether it is John the baptist or the evangelist who speaks in John 3:31 - 34. It seems as though God honours the baptist in bringing him into the spirit of christianity, but it is in unqualified appreciation of Christ. That is the great principle in dealing with our brethren who are not with us in the fellowship practically, what will attract any true christian is the Person of the Christ. You will always get them to agree on that point if they are true christians.

Rem. So that in John's gospel what follows the

baptist's remarks is, "The Father loves the Son, and has given all things to be in his hand" (John 3:35).

J.T. John's gospel gives us a clue as to how to deal with our brethren in the last days. If you are dealing with a true christian, he will respond to the truth of Christ's Person. He will agree on that point, and thus there is opportunity of bringing forward other features of truth.

Ques. Does the mention of sandals by the father in Luke 15 assure the returning prodigal's heart of his place in sonship -- the sandals being given to him?

J.T. I think so. You can see that all the things mentioned denoted his dignity. He is called "my son". All that follows in Luke 15 -- the jubilance, the music, and the dancing inside -- is in the light of that relation. The most glorious presentation of christianity, the most glorious result of the gospel is in that chapter, but the elder brother would not come in. If you appeal to a true christian according to what is there, he will be affected.

Ques. David said, "O God; and thou hast spoken of thy servant's house for a great while to come" (1 Chronicles 17:17). Do you think he saw beyond the temple?

J.T. Well, the words go further than he could have explained to you. If you had asked David to give you an explanation of this verse, he could not do it as well as you could.

Ques. The Lord said, "Abraham exulted in that he should see my day" (John 8:56). Do you think David saw Christ here?

J.T. Yes, in the same sense in which Abraham saw Him. It is always well to remember that these men of faith are clothed with the Lord's own view of the matter. The New Testament takes up Old Testament scriptures and clothes them with New Testament thoughts. I was thinking, for instance, of the writer of the Hebrews, undoubtedly Paul, he

alludes to the deluge, saying, Noah made an ark for the saving of his house. You can understand how Paul clothed Noah's act with the truth of the believer's household which he was bringing out. The Lord says, "Abraham exulted in that he should see my day, and he saw and rejoiced". You might think that Abraham could give an address on Christ's day, but you would be mistaken in that. The Lord clothes what the patriarch saw with His own point of view. We cannot say that Abraham could have named what was then seen by him as Christ names it.

Rem. So with Moses; he esteemed the reproach of Christ.

J.T. That is right. Moses could not have elaborated on that if you asked him. What is referred to there is that he called the Hebrews his brethren; it was "the reproach of the Christ" from the New Testament point of view.

I think it is beautiful here to see David's movement. Instead of being indignant (for indeed he knew how to be indignant even in regard of what God did, 1 Chronicles 13:11), he is enlarged as the truth comes out; he is receptive of it; a very fine example for us. That he should be prohibited from building the house reduced him personally, but he is entirely above resentfulness, he is in the light of sonship.

Rem. He had in spirit to pass over into sonship to understand it.

J.T. Well, that is the point. And the lesson here is that we should pass over into it. God has opened the door for us to do so, as it says, "when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son ... that we might receive sonship" (Galatians 4:4, 5). It is to be received, but it is something we have on the principle of faith. And then, "But because ye are sons, God has sent out the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, Abba, Father". We must take note of the Spirit of adoption crying. He is so urgent as to the

matter that He cries in our hearts, "Abba, Father". It is urgent that the Father should be addressed.

Rem. One of the purposes in being baptised by the Spirit is that we should move in that direction. John the baptist saw that the One who baptises with the Holy Spirit is the Son of God.

J.T. Quite so, that is what he says, "And I have seen and borne witness that this is the Son of God". It is remarkable that John the baptist cried his testimony as to the greatness of Christ, John 1:15. It was urgent that it should be known.

Ques. May I divert to what is practical, in view of what might be hindering some of our souls? David knew the position the divine mind had placed him in; he could speak from there. What may be hindering some of us is that we seek to express something that we are not up to, whereas we should be what we are.

J.T. That is what we should see here, that the light of sonship is conveyed to him, and he moves in it, and enters in before Jehovah and sits down. Sitting down means, I think, that it is a permanent thought. Sonship is a fixed relationship into which we are brought. This should encourage young christians to take up that ground, and to note the word "crying" in Galatians 4 and in Romans 8. You get the Lord Jesus crying in His ministry on earth. He cried, "If any one thirst, let him come to me and drink" (John 7:37). It is that the matter is urgent, most important, and it seems to me that Galatians 4:6 implies that young christians should take up this great thought of sonship at once; it is urgent. The Spirit cries in the christian, "Abba, Father", according to Galatians 4. In Romans 8:15 the believer cries, "Abba, Father" by the Spirit; he takes the thing up and responds to God, according to this blessed relationship into which he is brought. Romans 8 is more advanced because we come down to the thought of

sonship in the chapter through many phases in which the Spirit is presented. We come to the statement, "for as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For ye have not received it spirit of bondage again for fear, but ye have received a spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father". Not that we should do it, but that we cry, "Abba, Father". It is characteristic of those who have the Spirit of adoption.

Ques. Would the psalmist, in Psalm 73:23, have a sense of sonship? He says, "I am continually with thee".

J.T. That is Asaph; he was a singing man, one who experienced going inside the sanctuary. That is the first psalm of the third book, the last of which speaks of sonship applied to David, to which we have already alluded. More than half the psalms in that book are Asaph's. Men of faith, like Asaph, accustomed to enter the sanctuary of God, would have some sense of the liberty of sonship.

Ques. Would you say that the Spirit crying in us would indicate that He would hasten us to the highest thoughts -- "Abba, Father"?

J.T. Well, that is right. We are sometimes a long time in getting to the highest thought in the service of God. Sometimes meetings run through, and the brethren never get to it. One has been in such meetings. Galatians 4 and Romans 8 intimate that we are to proceed to the full thought; that God is waiting for this, for He seeks worshippers. He would hear our voices and words expressed in the power of the Spirit of adoption.

Ques. What are we to understand by "Abba, Father"?

J.T. Well, "Abba" is the Aramaic for Father; the word Father in the passages mentioned is a translation from the Greek. "Abba" is the original word used. The Lord using both in Gethsemane

indicates, I think, the intensity of His feelings as to His Father at that time. "Abba" is the identical word which the Lord used along with the Greek word translated "Father" in our tongue. "Abba" is not translated; it is left as it was. It is a precious jewel in the gospel of Mark; the very word the Lord Himself articulated. It was used by the Lord in the extremity of His pressure, and it is put into our mouths by the Spirit -- a most affecting thing. God would have us use this expression, not lightly, but reverentially, feelingly, and in a holy way.

Ques. Could we also speak to the Father as the Lord does in John 17?

J.T. I think so. That chapter brings out the Lord's position here more than any perhaps. In John 17 it is "Father". He looked up to heaven: you have His actual attitude. He looked up to heaven and said, "Father". We are entitled to do that, too. I think the idea of His speaking in their hearing would be to lead them into that.

Rem. The Spirit crying, "Abba, Father" would imply nearness and perfect liberty in addressing God.

J.T. Yes. The Spirit gives us that; it is not only that you have light as to it, but the Spirit gives you consciousness of the relationship expressed in the words.

Rem. It is very precious that it is possible for God to hear now, when we say "Abba", something that He heard from Christ's lips.

J.T. Well, it is very wonderful. I think that heaven is affected by our voices: it is the same Spirit, the Spirit of God's Son.

Ques. Did not God intend that it should be continued after our Lord had gone back to heaven? It should never cease.

J.T. That is one of the thoughts, so that the voice from heaven said, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I have found my delight". Often you hear

that quoted "all my delight", but "all" is not there; the divine thought is to extend the occasion of delight, to bring the saints into it, into sonship. There are to be "many sons".

Now David, in 1 Chronicles 17:16 to the end, helps by example, giving us the sense of richness that should be in our worship -- richness of titles used in addressing God.

Ques. Is "Abba, Father" an expression to be used now? We do not use the word very much in practice. Is its import conveyed in our intelligent use of the word "Father"?

J.T. It is in the treasury; there are things that people have in their treasuries that they may not bring out often, but they are there. There are many things in Scripture that are not used, but we allude to them, and regard them as treasures. Indeed, the richness of David's speech inside is to be noted in this respect; and I think it is recorded to encourage young christians to get near to God, because the nearer we get to God the more liberty we have, and the richer would be our worship. Greater spirituality would, no doubt, lead to more usage of the words "Abba, Father".

As we go on to chapter 29 we get a fuller exhibition, a fuller testimony to David's worshipful condition; his priestly power. "And David blessed Jehovah in the sight of all the congregation; and David said, Blessed be thou, Jehovah, the God of our father Israel, for ever and ever. Thine, Jehovah, is the greatness, and the power, and the glory, and the splendour, and the majesty; for all that is in the heavens and on the earth is thine: thine, Jehovah, is the kingdom, and thou art exalted as Head above all; and riches and glory are of thee, and thou rulest over everything; and in thy hand is power and might; and in thy hand it is to make all great and strong. And now, our God, we thank thee,

and praise thy glorious name". It seems to me that we have there perhaps the richest, the most priestly thoughts of David; he reaches the height of headship in God. He goes on, in verse 14, "But who am I, and what is my people, that we should be able to offer willingly after this manner? for all is of thee, and of that which is from thy hand have we given thee. For we are strangers before thee, and sojourners, as all our fathers: our days on the earth are as a shadow, and there is no hope of life. Jehovah our God, all this store that we have prepared to build thee a house to thy holy name, is of thy hand, and is all thine own. And I know, my God, that thou triest the heart, and hast pleasure in uprightness. In the uprightness of my heart have I willingly offered all these things; and now have I seen with joy thy people, which are present here, offer willingly to thee. Jehovah, God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Israel, our fathers, keep this for ever in the imagination of the thoughts of the heart of thy people, and direct their hearts to thee! And give to Solomon my son a perfect heart, to keep thy commandments, thy testimonies, and thy statutes, and to do all, and to build the palace, for which I have made provision. And David said to all the congregation, Bless now Jehovah your God. And all the congregation blessed Jehovah the God of their fathers, ..." It seems to me that here we come to the highest point in the service, so that all worship; he moves all into worship. They all worship Jehovah and the king.

And what is seen further in relation to this is the place sonship has in chapter 23 of this book. Solomon is on the throne alongside of David, and David exercised his kingly authority in gathering all the princes of Israel with the priests and Levites; and in numbering the Levites, etc. There were thirty-eight thousand Levites. From that point on you have the best use made of the saints; that is, these

chapters would bring out what is in sonship, not simply the abstract thought of it as in chapter 17, but the son is actually there, and he is alongside his father on the throne. From that point on, as I said, you have the best use made of the saints, they are all to be put into the service, the young and old, all brought in. That is one great point in the present time -- bring in all the young people into the service of God. The age for levitical service is here reduced to twenty years. I think at the present time God has put out His arms to the young people. Levitical service is not so onerous now as it was in the wilderness, David says. The point was that God had given rest to His people and that He would dwell in Jerusalem for ever. Today, this would be our position "in assembly" -- viewed as in the land. We are in the divine sphere. Normally opposition is absent: the holy current towards God is strong and there is thus peculiar power and liberty in service.

Rem. So all that David gave expression to in that way, and the height he reached, would be the level for the people.

J.T. I think the people had come on, typically, to sonship as in Solomon as presented in this book; it enhances the value of the saints to be taken up on that ground. As you regard yourself in sonship, you get liberty, and there is more room for the development of divine thoughts; that is why David is seen here so rich in what he says to God. Compare him as seen in 1 Kings 1 -- how different! Here is a man in full vigour speaking in priestly intelligence and power; it is the same man, and the same time practically, the difference being that he is here on the ground of sonship. Official christendom has become lifeless, whereas those who take up their divinely-given privileges have a measure of energy and feelings and spiritual richness in the service of God.

These chapters are to bring all the saints into this.

Rem. God would gather up all that is living.

J.T. That is right. Hezekiah says, "The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I this day" (Isaiah 38:19).

Rem. The object is that the results for God might be greater and greater.

J.T. That is the idea exactly. These chapters are to be studied well if we are to understand sonship and its bearing on the service of God. It is a question of the richness that is involved in it, and is in our souls in worship to God.

Rem. The atmosphere and response here, and the richness of the contributions from David and others, are remarkable. I do not remember any other scripture in which God is addressed as "Head".

J.T. It is the supreme idea of headship. Headship as in Christ brings out the best there is in the saints. Headship implies authority, but it is much more: it is wisdom exercised, and exercised so as to affect others through the understanding and even through their affections. It is seen perfectly in Christ as Head of the assembly.

Ques. There is a contrast here to Genesis 6; every imagination of the thoughts of man's heart. There it is "only evil continually;" here David prays that these things may be kept "for ever in the imagination of the thoughts of the heart of thy people, and direct their hearts to thee".

J.T. That is a very good contrast. God graciously keeps our hearts, and we are enjoined: "Keep thy heart more than anything that is guarded; for out of it are the issues of life" (Proverbs 4:23). The affections must be under control. The heart represents the more elevated affections, and so "the eyes of your heart" are spoken of in Ephesians 1:18. It is a question of our intelligent affections. All this underlies the rich flow of worship towards God so beautifully set out here in David. We may

profitably compare with it our Lord's own words, "I praise thee, Father, Lord of the heaven and of the earth;" but this was not at a time of prosperity, as was the case with David, it was in the most distressing period of His ministry, as we learn in Matthew 11:25. We may also compare the spiritual exuberance of Paul flowing out towards God in worship and in affectionate regard for the saints in the Ephesian epistle -- and in circumstances of outward pressure, that is, in prison.

Ques. Do you think Paul reaches one of the highest thoughts in connection with sonship in us when he says, "according as he has chosen us in him" (Ephesians 1:4)?

J.T. Yes; "that we should be holy and blameless before him in love ... wherein he has taken us into favour in the Beloved".

Rem. Then we have access through Christ by the Spirit unto the Father.

Ques Do you think the increased number of meetings give scope and freedom for the sons to come into view and the volume of praise increased?

J.T. That is the way God is working. This section in 1 Chronicles, where the age of the Levites is reduced from twenty-five to twenty, is very significant and instructive, and I believe the point is to bring the young people into the service; so that the old and young are numbered together, the teacher and the scholar. Of course, in the actual service the teacher will have more intelligence and ability generally than the scholar, but the scholar will be there, the young ones will be learning from the old ones, and they are all in the service together.

Rem. One has noticed in going from place to place, that the Lord is leading on those that are younger in the appreciation of sonship, and the volume of praise has increased wonderfully.

J.T. Yes, and the import of the number twenty-four

enters into these chapters from chapter 23 to the end. Among other things it implies that love is operative, and to this end it must be amongst us. We can thus be manipulated according to the divisibility of that number.

Ques. I was thinking of what Solomon said: "I am but a little child: I know not how to go out or come in" -- would that be an initial exercise relative to this end?

J.T. It would. God had effected that humility in the young king. God commented upon his prayer very approvingly, for as in felt need of them, he had asked for wisdom and knowledge that he might be fit to serve His people. It is a prayer of a "little child", a prayer that may well be taken up by every young christian, having service acceptable to God in view.

MANHOOD IN EZEKIEL

Ezekiel 1:26 - 28; Ezekiel 9:1 - 4; Ezekiel 40:1 - 3: Ezekiel 43:1 - 6

J.T. Those of us who are at all conversant with the book of Ezekiel will know that the thought of man is stamped upon it; the scriptures read illustrate this. The term "son of man" runs through it, appearing even more often than in all the gospels. I thought it would be helpful to look at it from this point of view, not from a prophetic standpoint exactly, but as to the bearing of the thought morally on ourselves. Although the angels were the most exalted of His creatures hitherto, evidently God's primary thought was that they should be subservient to man. The Lord becoming Man, having man in His mind, takes a place "by so much better than the angels, as he inherits a name more excellent than they" (Hebrews 1:4). Man being in God's mind and counsels, Hebrews tells us that Jesus, although "made some little inferior to angels on account of the suffering of death", is now "crowned with glory and honour" (Hebrews 2:7 - 9), and "thou hast subjected all things under his feet", whereas the angels are "sent out for service on account of those who shall inherit salvation" (Hebrews 1:14).

What may be noticed in regard to Ezekiel, is that he is called "the priest". Not simply a priest, he was evidently a priest characteristically, as if the thought of manhood should shine out in the time of test in intelligent sympathy, both with God in what He is doing, and with men. Hence the loins of the man in the bright spot are alluded to "upward" and "downward", as if referring to his affections Godward and manward. That must be the divine thought in manhood as it appears in Christ, and as it should appear in all of us who have the Spirit -- its bearing Godward and manward.

These passages would help us to work that out a

little; first, as regards the supremacy of Man in the bright spot above all the power that is symbolised in this way, by the figures in chapter 1; all the power of God being in Man. Then, secondly, in chapter 9 we have "one man clothed with linen", indicating a certain holy sobriety in his service amid the men with the slaughter weapons. He has this clothing of linen and a writer's ink-horn by his side, taking account of things accurately -- that is the second point. One's thought is that these things should be seen working out amongst us. Then, thirdly, in chapter 40 we have a man with a measuring line, a man measuring things. God being the "God of measure", we have His abode and all its approaches and the temple itself accurately measured. And then finally, in chapter 43, God is there in His abode, and the prophet says, "a man was standing by me", that is, he is sustained in the presence of the glory by a man standing by. That was what I had before me.

Ques. What you have said seems to show the reason why God put man on the earth. Is it in connection with the earth that there can be movements of the glory coming and going? Is it for moral education in the value of the heavens?

J.T. I suppose that is the thought. A Man being there we can look up with confidence. The loins, taken account of in chapter 1, point to sympathetic feelings both upward and downward; what He is downwards to us is in relation to what God is, that is, there is perfect consonance with what God is. With regard to the government of this world today (we thank God for it, and for those in authority), you cannot speak much of "loins downward" in this respect, for man's motives are so mixed.

Ques. Were you comparing the first passage a little with what we have in Ephesians 4:10 -- He "ascended up above all heavens, that he might fill all things" -- is that the thought?

J.T. Yes. He has ascended above all heavens and has given gifts to men for the best purpose possible. That would be from "the loins downward". You cannot conceive of greater skill and compassion than is seen in the Lord ascending to the highest point, and sending down thence the gifts "for the perfecting of the saints; with a view to the work of the ministry, with a view to the edifying of the body of Christ; until we all arrive ... at the full-grown man;" that would be the thought. It all has the full-grown man in view. God did not make man primarily as a babe. He made him full-grown. So Christ Himself, as presented in testimony, is full-grown, as a Man of thirty years.

Ques. Are you linking that new thought now with the scripture in chapter 43, as to the full-grown man?

J.T. Well, that scripture shows that I am able to stand in the presence of the glory, because a Man is standing by me; it is Christ standing by us in the assembly, I think. Hebrews tells us we have "a great priest over the house of God;" that would refer, I suppose, not only to His official greatness, but His moral greatness, that He is sympathetic with us, knowing how poor we are down here. He stands by us and enables us to be in the presence of the glory, in the presence of God, knowing us altogether in our weakness, and how we need to be supported.

D.L.H. Would you bring in any thought of the covenant relationships into this line, as distinct from the family relationships?

J.T. I suppose the knowledge of God must be brought in in the formation of men according to His mind; for the end is that we should be morally after God. The new man is created "after God", and that must be by the knowledge of Him as in the covenant, I apprehend, in the Mediator: how do we know Him otherwise? Knowing Him in

creation will not, in itself, form a man after God; but knowing what He is morally in righteousness and love -- "God is love". We are enabled to penetrate beyond His creatorial works, finding that behind all His actions is His love; and besides, we know redemption; so we see that love is in everything, and the Spirit makes that good in our hearts. I suppose in that way we become conformed to this thought of the "loins". Romans, I believe, brings the saints to that; we have the love of God, and the compassions of God mentioned -- the believer is to be brought into accord with that.

Ques. Where does the mind come in -- the understanding of man?

J.T. Well, that is a great part in the formation of man. It is in having a mind and spirit that man differs from the animal creation. We can see that from the very outset; he is the last to be formed in the creation and he receives life by the breath of God, so that God was there morally; not only in His love and compassion, but in His intelligence, what God is. Therefore man was to be His image. He could not be His image save as in intelligence, as superior to the animal. He has the element of supremacy, all his features denote superiority by intelligence; he is superior, he is able to rule, to have dominion -- which could only be through his superior intelligence. So that in Romans there is the renewing of the mind that we might "prove what is the good and acceptable and perfect will of God" (Romans 12:2). Not only that, but the mind is said to have dominion in chapter 7. "So then I myself with the mind serve the God's law" -- the mind is allowed, as it were, through the analysis, to have a dominant place. Because its superiority is discerned, one allows his mind to rule. The renewing of it, of course, is by the Spirit.

Rem. So the mind would be the faculty in man to entertain divine thoughts.

J.T. Quite so, enabling him to represent God here.

Rem. The circumstances of the people in this prophecy would bring out the sympathies indicated "from the loins downward".

J.T. I suppose so. You could help us a little on that.

Rem. I had in mind that the people are in captive conditions, and what you indicated at the beginning -- the loins downward -- would express divine sympathies in connection with those conditions; whereas the movements of the glory would maintain the height of divine thoughts. Is that so?

J.T. Quite so. The glory as seen here is remarkable -- viewed in Ezekiel as having to leave because of conditions, but still brought back again. The great fact is that there is a residence of the glory here; and I believe these passages, as bearing on ourselves now, would teach us how to maintain conditions suitable for its residence. First, there is the idea of rule, of those in whose hands authority is placed through moral qualifications. The first chapter would be that order is maintained by authority, in men who are not arbitrary -- in care meetings and the like -- but who are in sympathy with what God is, and then with the brethren, with men; making all due allowances for the weaknesses of the saints. It calls for spirituality in the brothers. They would thus have the confidence of the saints generally. "Ye who are spiritual restore such a one" (Galatians 6:1). The more spiritual a man is, the more compassionate he is, and the more ready to forgive, too, to help the saints.

Then the next thing, chapter 9, is taking account of things accurately. There is a man in linen clothing, a sober man in the midst of a terrible state of things, and six men with slaughter weapons in their

hands. These men are executors of divine wrath coming from the north, but this man "clothed with linen, with a writer's ink-horn by his side", is evidently one who would deal with things in a most accurate way, and see to it that no one suffered wrongly. The Lord said, "if ye had known ... ye would not have condemned the guiltless" (Matthew 12:7) -- anyone that sighs or cries for God is to be noted.

Ques. Do the passages refer to the features of manhood as given in the four gospels. I was thinking of authority in Matthew; and then the second principle, taking account of things accurately and the groaning and the sighing, in Mark. Had you in mind that they might be the features of manhood as seen in Christ?

J.T. I think that is helpful. Authority is obviously Matthew; the Lord's countenance shone as the sun on the mount, according to Matthew. Then in Mark, He groaned, feeling things deeply. Luke has the same feelings, but he is more skilful in treating diseases; Luke has a way of presenting Him as treating diseases -- spiritual diseases, of course -- with skill, He was the good Physician. But this man with the ink-horn should be noticed, because we are apt to be very careless in dealing with cases, perhaps classifying people too readily, thinking, in a crisis, they are all of one colour, whereas they are not always that. They are graded, it may be, and we ought to take account of the gradation; if one is less opposed than another, you must take account of that.

Ques. Do you view these groanings, in verse 4, as relating to the state of affairs in christendom, or more particularly amongst the saints?

J.T. I was thinking more particularly amongst ourselves. We need these things applied -- right governmental services, and then the priestly compassionate side, and accuracy in determining just where people are.

Ques. Is one of the first qualifications for service in the house of God that we groan, as feeling things?

J.T. Just so.

Ques. Is the thought that while those in the city, who carry responsibility, may come to the care meeting with a slaughter weapon, that is held back until the man with the ink-horn has gone into matters?

J.T. That is the principle. I suppose, however, that when you come to the administration of judgment the slaughter weapon properly belongs to the assembly. The care meeting itself ought to take the character of the man with the ink-horn, recording what is found, for he moves about as feeling things.

Rem. Jude would know how to discriminate -- "Of some ... making a difference".

J.T. That is an illustration of what we are saying -- "of some have compassion, making a difference, but others save with fear, snatching them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh" (Jude 23).

Rem. So that, if the man with the ink-horn does not make a mark on them, the slaughter weapon comes into view and begins with the elders, verse 6.

J.T. That is the way it stands, you have to look out for this mark. It brings out the great value of the saints who have a care, and who come together under the Lord to determine things.

Ques. Is the writing the outcome of deliberation?

J.T. I think so, and that you do not change your mind. Sometimes you hear of facts reached, determined in care, in consultation, and then, when the slaughter weapon is to be used, some have changed their mind -- and, of course, that is great weakness. To bring up these matters when the judgment is to be executed is great weakness.

Rem. You would expect more help from the

Lord in the deliberations in the care meeting than in discussion when you get home.

J.T. The Lord helps us when we are together humbly and solemnly before the Lord in investigation. Things become clear, and it is well to hold to that. When we leave we come under other influences. I think the writing means that the thing is not to be altered. Sometimes you hear of meetings for judgment or discipline, and they become deliberative meetings, whereas they ought to be administrative meetings. In this respect an assembly meeting is not a deliberative meeting, it is an administrative meeting. You find in chapter 10 this same man has something more to do, he is seen among the elements of judgment, he is seen active there; he is not changing his mind in chapter 10.

Ques. Would the administrative meeting be the result of the distinctions made by the man with the ink-horn?

J.T. I think so -- the assembly meeting is a formal, authoritative, solemn judgment, uttered in as few words as possible, for the conscience of the assembly. It might be said. Well, every conscience ought to be made acquainted with the details; but then, confidence comes in: there is confidence in the man with the ink-horn, so to say, confidence in that record.

Ques. What is the position of an individual who stands apart or refuses the assembly judgment?

J.T. He is morally outside, I should say; do you not think so?

Rem. I was thinking of one who might still wish to go on with the brethren, and yet does not bow to some judgment that has been arrived at in a godly way.

J.T. Well, I think his position is very precarious. Patience would wait on him, of course, but he is morally outside, and it is for him to get right. There

is a good deal of that, and the position becomes extremely weak where this record is not acted upon. The Lord is with the brethren in their deliberations, and He has great regard for the assembly, and looks for the saints coming together in assembly to administer the judgment. He will not allow it to be passed by, and anyone even silently disregarding the action of the assembly is in a very precarious position. If he does it openly he is disqualified for fellowship.

Ques. Does the fact that the man with the ink-horn is clothed in linen bear on that?

J.T. Yes. I think it implies sobriety. As we have often remarked, linen is a fabric, it is not merely flax or yarn, it is a woven thing; and it does not promote heat, but the effect is rather to absorb heat. I think it means that the brethren have taken a sober account of things without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

P.H.H. Would Paul in 1 Corinthians be like the man with the writer's ink-horn? He says, "ye and my spirit being gathered together". He was, in his spirit, with the saints there who felt things, like the man with the ink-horn, before the slaughter weapon was applied.

J.T. Yes, and the authority of the apostle would enter into it, but the spirit of a man refers to what he is. All the compassions of a man were with Paul; no one would be more ready to forgive, if forgiveness should be extended, as we learn from the second letter. There are two things, in 1 Corinthians 5:4: "the power of our Lord Jesus Christ", and "ye and my spirit being gathered together".

Ques. The men in Ezekiel 9 stand beside the brazen altar. What is the suggestion in that?

J.T. The brazen altar, of course, means judgment, where typically Christ died under the judgment of

God. Judgment must he according to that, there is no lesser standard.

Ques. Does the fact that the man in chapter 10 had the fire in the palms of his hands, show how he felt what had happened at the brazen altar? He was to "fill the hollow" of his hand. The word "hollow" is "palm", is it not? -- the most sensitive part of the hand. And, although he was told to scatter the ashes over the city, there is no record that he does it. I was thinking of how he took it into his own soul typically.

J.T. Yes, that is very touching. There seems to be a modifying element in this man; he is with God, and he is compassionate.

Rem. That would have been in the heart of Stephen, "lay not this sin to their charge".

J.T. Exactly.

A.J.G. Being able to discern those who sigh and cry, would involve knowing one another.

J.T. That is how it works out. It is a first-hand matter, for the Holy Spirit would convey it to us. He "makes intercession with groanings which cannot be uttered" (Romans 8:26). These groans are really by the Spirit, but it requires keen sensibilities and discernment to note the groans and sighs, what they mean. It all implies the Spirit in the saints.

Rem. In a crisis, all the brethren really come into review, and we either bear the mark or we do not.

J.T. I think that is right. God brings in crises to bring to light where the brethren are. We may lose some -- and it is very humbling if we do -- but a crisis brings to light where we are. This man with the writer's ink-horn, therefore, alludes to accuracy of discernment amongst us as to what is of God, and what is not.

Ques. It says, in the margin, the ink-horn was on his loins; does that mean the marking is done feelingly?

J.T. I thought that; the loins have a great place in this book.

C.K. It says in Ezekiel 9:8 "it came to pass, while they were smiting, and I was left, that I fell upon my face, and cried". Does that show that, although he was in spirit with God in regard of the judgment, yet he felt things keenly?

J.T. That is another thing. Ezekiel felt things, he felt the sorrow of the brethren. We cannot but feel the loss of our brethren, however few. Even although the man with the ink-horn has had to pass them by, we cannot but feel the loss of them. I am sure God regards that.

Ques. Would there be something corresponding with this in our hearts in relation to an administrative meeting for discipline?

J.T. I think so. One feels it for oneself, if one becomes in any way the occasion of anyone turning aside, or if circumstances arise that turn souls aside, God is obliged to deal with them because of what He is. I am sure God regards it as right to feel with them; all this came out perfectly in Christ in regard of Israel, and in Stephen; and in Paul. See how Paul speaks about his brethren after the flesh. He could die for them, he had wished to be accursed from Christ for them, he said.

O.G. So that in Ezekiel 28:12, when the judgments were to be executed on the king of Tyre, God says, "take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyre". God would bring Ezekiel into sympathy with His feelings, although judgment had to be executed.

J.T. Quite so, it is remarkable how that thought runs through the prophets.

The next point to be noticed is measurement, in regard of the place in which God is to dwell; it comes out in the chapters beginning with chapter 40. It is a question of God's place, as He says, "the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of

my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever" (Ezekiel 43:7). That is what He has in mind in these chapters. These passages show how a place is made for God; for His throne; for the soles of His feet, and for Him to dwell. The book contemplates the captivity, that God had to cast off Israel in judgment; for Ezekiel speaks in the last passage read, of what he saw being "according to the vision that I had seen when I came to destroy the city". The link is established between what had been seen when he came to destroy the city and what he now sees when it is restored.

Ques. Do you think that should be our care that there should be the desire for the return of the glory?

J.T. That is what we have in mind, if anything occurs to prevent God being with His people, as at Corinth -- not that He had left them at Corinth, but He would have to leave them did they not judge themselves. In circumstances like that, the thing is to deal in executive judgment or discipline according to what is determined by accurate examination into the facts. Then, in the recovery, we must look for the measurements again, because things are dislocated, we have to apply the measuring line again. Now it is a question of God's standard, not what He is forced to accept from us, but love would say, We must have it exactly as He wishes, hence the measurements come in.

Rem. It is interesting that the method of dating is changed. In verse 1 of chapter 1 it is "in the thirtieth year;" but in verse 1 of chapter 40 it says, "in the twenty-fifth year of our captivity".

J.T. Yes. He says "our captivity", not 'the captivity' -- he had part in it himself, this would lead us to take to ourselves the present condition of things. If we are spiritual, in such circumstances we say 'our'. We sometimes refer back to history

and speak of divisions in a general way -- a most terrible thought is expressed in the word division -- but it was our matter; a spiritual man will say, That is my matter.

Then chapter 40 opens with: "In the visions of God brought he me into the land of Israel, and set me upon a very high mountain; and upon it was as the building of a city, on the south". That is a remarkable group of circumstances. The city is supposed to be there, because you cannot have a dwelling for God without that, the principle of order and authority, and things regulated; but then you must have everything according to measure. The allusion would be to Exodus, where you have measure in regard to God's dwelling. Measure is one of the things predicated of Him; He is said to be "the God of measure", showing how important a thing it is.

D.L.H. He seems to have two measuring instruments -- one a flax-cord, which would measure the uneven surfaces, and a measuring-reed.

J.T. The measuring-reed is a definite, known thing. I suppose the flax-cord would be indefinite -- nothing is said as to the length of it. No doubt it would be used for the measurement of the more extended distances. Paul had a measure from God reaching to the Corinthians.

Ques. Would the flax-cord find an answer in the spiritual sensibilities of the brethren? We cannot always find words to express it, but sometimes there is a sense that things are not quite right yet.

J.T. I think so. There is also a definite rule: the reed sets forth what is definite, accurate. In 2 Corinthians 10:13 God is presented as "the God of measure;" well, that would go beyond us of course. I mean, He goes beyond anything we can grasp. Even in the physical creation we see that; but "the measure of a man" is compassable, it is what is

brought within our range, so that the measurements here, I apprehend, would be intelligible to us, so that we may conform to them.

P.H.H. Is there anything in the thought of brass attaching to the man here? In chapter 1: 27, it is glowing brass in connection with the firmament; in chapter 9: 2, it is the brazen altar; and it says here of this man, that his appearance was like the appearance of brass, chapter 40:3.

J.T. I think that is very suggestive, carrying the thought through to the dwelling-place of God. It would imply that there must be some testimony there to judgment, if man uses his will in any matter -- "if any one corrupt the temple of God, him shall God destroy" (1 Corinthians 3:17).

P.H.H. It is said of the things that were made for Solomon's temple that they were of bright brass. Would that thought enter into this?

J.T. I think so. A man, corrupting the temple of God, is met with stern judgment; the Scriptures are full of this in relation to the house of God. Brass here would all bear on that.

Ques. A man would be able to measure as having this feature of brass in him -- ability to judge? The brass implies that evil can be withstood. Do you think we need that?

J.T. Evil can be withstood -- that is the idea.

Ques. Do we need that in measurement?

J.T. We do. Some quail before it; but it is a most important thing that evil can be withstood, and that God provides us with the means of withstanding it. I think that is a most salutary thought. The general impression in this passage is that whilst this man is acting for God in the measuring, he conveys to you, if you have any part in this, that if your will is active, it will be dealt with uncompromisingly. The brass implies this.

Ques. Is your thought that these principles must

be maintained in every local meeting if the extent of divine thoughts in connection with the dwelling is to be known?

J.T. Well, that is the idea. The local meeting is a representation of the whole assembly. "If any one build", says the apostle in 1 Corinthians 3:12, 13, the foundation is laid, and if one build on it "gold, silver, precious stones, wood, grass, straw, the work of each shall be made manifest". Paul has the local company in view in these two epistles, and you can be sure that the test will come; the work of each will be tried, but the man himself saved.

Ques. So that, if there is a lack of breadth and length and depth and height in the local meeting, it may be due to the allowance of certain things that would limit our capacity to reach out to them. Is that in view in the dimensions of the various parts of the house?

J.T. Yes; it may be that we are measuring ourselves with ourselves; Paul treats of that in the second letter. You can never reach the divine dwelling on those lines; God has His own measure for things, and the builder has to keep that in mind -- as you said, the breadth and length, and the depth and height. These are moral thoughts. In Ephesians 3 these dimensions convey great spiritual thoughts.

Ques. Are the great receptive faculties brought into this exercise in verse 4? It speaks of eyes, ears, and heart.

J.T. Yes. What the prophet saw is to be shown, and this requires that it should be first fully received and understood by him. A great principle governing ministry is thus set before us here.

The thought of measure is most important. We might make some meeting that has reputation, a sort of standard. These chapters, beginning with chapter 40, are to impress us that God has His thoughts and we are not to have any less thoughts, or

substitute our own; His measure is to be understood. Exodus gives us specific measure, but then it also says that the pattern was shown to Moses. No one but he therefore could pass on the work. Whatever a meeting may seem to have, it has to come under that inspection, and that is how we are to comport with the divine mind. We may measure ourselves with ourselves, or meetings may measure themselves with themselves; but God has His own measure. He is the God of measure, and He is extremely particular as to what marks His house. The more we see this the more concerned we shall be, because we are prone to deflect from it; but God regards us compassionately in accepting His mind and humbly owning what disparity there may be in us.

Ques. Is Paul measuring in 1 Corinthians 4:19 when he says, "I will know, not the word of those that are puffed up, but the power"?

J.T. Just so -- the power. Then he said of himself and those labouring with him, that God had given them "a measure to reach even unto you". That is a commendation for any workman, that his measure has reached to some good result. If it has reached me I shall be the last to say a word against him.

Ques. Is this chapter an advance on the ninth chapter where the discernment of good is in view?

J.T. I think so. This is more what is in God's mind as to His house, really what Christ is, because the dwelling must answer in all its features to Christ. That is the idea of the "pattern" I think.

Ques. Would 1 Corinthians 13 be the standard that Paul was able to show to them -- a more excellent way?

J.T. Yes, it is a sort of abstract standard. Love is presented in that way abstractly, but he could show that. No one could present an abstract thought unless he had the thing concretely, and Paul had it. If a man has ability to reach my soul from God,

I shall be the last to say a word against him. "A measure to reach even unto you", Paul says. It is what the God of measure had apportioned, and it was proved.

Rem. How beautifully that came out in Peter when he said, "our beloved brother Paul".

J.T. Yes; he knew Paul's measure -- no doubt he had felt it.

Ques. When you referred to Exodus, had you in mind the exercise of getting thoughts directly from the Lord, but all being according to Scripture?

J.T. Yes, Scripture must be taken into account; whatever you may think you have from the Lord, it must be according to specification. The pattern involves spiritual understanding of what is presented. Of the man who saw the pattern Jehovah says, "the form of Jehovah doth he behold" -- there is a reference to the insight as to Himself which God gave Moses.

Ques. Would verse 12 of chapter 43 help us to be in accord with this?

J.T. Yes. "This is the law of the house: Upon the top of the mountain all its border round about is most holy. Behold, this is the law of the house".

The last scripture we read goes further than the others in that it sets us in the presence of the glory where the soles of God's feet are. It sets us in God's dwelling, and it shows that a Man, that is Christ, is there by us. It is a Man -- suggesting sympathy, so that we are sustained there. Poor and feeble as we are and forgetful in the assembly, our minds being treacherous; but the Lord makes us to stand up in the presence of the glory. That is really how we are in the assembly and able to serve in it.

Ques. Why are the references back to what has gone before?

J.T. That is, "the appearance of the vision that I saw was according to the vision that I had seen when

I came to destroy the city; and the visions were like the vision that I saw by the river Chebar: and I fell upon my face". I suppose it is to maintain the links in the instruction. God set out to this end, to reach the place of His glory. All these features that we have dwelt upon have this in view, that there should be a place for Jehovah, a place into which He comes, a residence for the glory; to maintain the link between the beginning and the end in view.

Rem. The thought in chapter 43 corresponds with John's line. I was thinking of, "we will come to him, and make our abode with him" (John 14:23).

J.T. Yes, that indicates that conditions for the divine dwelling are there -- in those keeping the commandments and the words. I think keeping the "word" implies that there are tabernacle conditions.

D.L.H. And does not the recovery cover the whole ground of the departure?

J.T. That is what I thought; linking with, "when I came to destroy the city", -- the whole ground is covered in the restoration that God effects, but in a wholly new way, as Isaiah 65 shows.

D.L.H. The glory that had to leave is now able to come back again.

J.T. And finally the name of the city is, "Jehovah is there".

Rem. The heart of a priest would look for that.

J.T. Quite so; if you love the Lord you will look for that. "I will not give sleep to mine eyes, slumber to mine eyelids, Until I find out a place for Jehovah, habitations for the Mighty One of Jacob" (Psalm 132:4, 5). That is the language of one who loved God, and David reached his end -- through Solomon.

Ques. Does this chapter mean that, although conditions of captivity might obtain outwardly, by the help of this Man, (verse 6), we may be found in conditions of glory? Do you not think the Lord is leading us into this?

J.T. A little bit. In spite of all that is going on

outwardly, He is building inwardly, getting us in, and He is there to support us so that we are sustained in the presence of the glory.

Ques. Would there be the support of the Spirit? "The Spirit lifted me up;" and then the Lord's personal support.

J.T. That is right. We draw near by the Spirit, in whom we have liberty, and Christ is there in priestly grace and sympathy to sustain us. We feet how very weak and ignorant and forgetful we are, and we are much weaker than we admit, but nevertheless we are sustained before God. The great Priest, I believe, involves His moral greatness, He takes account of our weakness and sustains us there.

A.J.G. Does it answer to knowing "the love of the Christ which surpasses knowledge"?

J.T. Just so. He is the Man who stands by. All this lays the basis for Hebrews, where Christ is seen as the Minister of the sanctuary.

PRIESTHOOD IN THE BOOKS OF SAMUEL (1)

1 Samuel 1:9 - 28; 1 Samuel 3:10 - 21

J.T. What is in view in this reading is priesthood, that we may see how it develops informally and unofficially, first in Hannah, that is, a sister, and then in Samuel, corresponding with the gospel of Luke. In the Lord's own case priesthood was there in Him while on earth, only not officially; so that in the epistle to the Romans as applied to christians it also develops unofficially. The intent at the moment is that the younger ones here may see that priesthood attaches to them as to each of us. The principle is there from the time we are born again, but specially so as we know redemption and have the Spirit. No one should assume that it belongs to the elder brethren only, it belongs to all, and it shows itself, as it showed itself here in Hannah. It arises as the need of it exists, and what is seen is that collaterally with the working out of priesthood in the genuine believer, there is the overthrow of it in those who pretend to be priests and who are not, but who have the official place of priests; the genuine thing appearing in however small a measure exposes what is unreal and merely official. That is how the work of God has proceeded during the past one hundred years or more. Of course, it was how it proceeded in the Lord's own case, as we remarked, and how it proceeded in early christians.

Ques. Is the unofficial line introduced as the official breaks down?

J.T. Well, that is what appears here. We first get the account of Elkanah, who he was; it says he was an Ephrathite. Although a Levite, he evidently took on a local character; although properly Levites are universal in their setting, not local. It is said he had two wives. Then we are told that the

two sons of Eli, Hophni and Phinehas, the priests of Jehovah, were at Shiloh, that is, attention is called to these two profligate priests. Elkanah apparently had no exercise about this position. Nor had Peninnah, one of his wives, but Hannah had, and though she does not criticise what existed (which was a right and seemly attitude), yet she is concerned about a man-child, and that he should be for the house of the Lord. Often we have exercises which we are not intelligent about in regard to the whole bearing of them, but God is behind them. He had in mind here to displace Hophni and Phinehas, but He is not doing it arbitrarily, nor creating a void in doing it. He is bringing in another -- Samuel -- although not of the sons of Aaron, but merely a Levite, yet he was to exercise priesthood. That is what God had in mind, and as we pursue the book we shall see that it works out also in David, who took on the priesthood unofficially. It comes out first in this woman, and that is what is so helpful as showing how it now applies to brothers and sisters alike.

Ques. Is it not a principle that recurs frequently in Scripture that recovery comes through a woman?

J.T. Well, it is a principle; "by man came death", we are told, "by man came also the resurrection of the dead". The evil began with the woman, but then at the beginning she is covered in the word man, and it was in her that recovery was intimated, that is, she was the mother, her seed should bruise the serpent's head. Adam quickly discerns that, so he calls her the mother of all living; instead of the mother of all dying, Eve is the mother of all living; so you get it running through where God works. It is the underlying state that is in view where you get the feminine side introduced. The birth of a female child brought in more sense of uncleanness than the birth of a male, but that does not reflect on the sex; it is more the state of humanity that is in mind. We have to view

humanity as in this state, the seething character of sin in it, but we have also to view it in the male, meaning the idea of supremacy in government or headship. Anything of that kind, instead of promoting sin, tends to limit it, hence the great importance of authorities now. Whatever their motives, they tend to check evil. So with the woman it is a question of state, and that is what is in mind here in Hannah.

The state was bad in Israel, but Hannah represents the opposite of that, and therefore the allusion is to the work of God. There can be nothing at all for God save as He begins to work again, and that is implied in the new birth. He begins again and affects us throughout, and the instinct attaching to that works, however unintelligently, in relation to what is needed in the world; what is needed for God.

Ques. Is it not important that this desire is accompanied by a vow as to what is required for the Lord?

J.T. That is so, the person means what he says; he has a purpose.

Rem. It was in connection with the interests of God that the vow was made.

J.T. It really implies that there is nothing in man to be relied upon save on that principle. "When thou vowest a vow unto God, defer not to pay it; for he hath no pleasure in fools" (Ecclesiastes 5:4). It is to bring out sincerity, and you can only get sincerity in relation to the work of God; that begins with new birth.

Ques. Would that impress our hearts with the great resources God has in Himself to effect His thoughts?

J.T. Yes, it is the work of God taking form in any one in this wicked world. The point in this chapter to begin with is the state of things in the house of God, and even in Eli himself. More is said later on, but the actual state of things is here in these two men, Hophni and Phinehas; then there is Elkanah's

other wife, so persecuting in her spirit. If the work of God is taking form in a soul amid those conditions, that soul is sure to suffer. Yet the work of God is true to itself, for instead of Hannah being overwhelmed in the suffering and in all the circumstances, she has recourse to God. She acknowledges her own weakness. Indeed God Himself limited this woman, but only to bring out what was of Himself in her. Limitations may seem to be against us, but in truth they are to bring out what God has effected in us. So that the limitations causing the grief, the constant grief of soul in Hannah, led to this remarkable priestly movement in her heart. She prayed in her heart; she speaks in her heart, only her lips moved; she made no pretension. It was the outcome of what God had effected in her soul and she was true to that; however unintelligently. It worked out in relation to itself, for the work of God is the work of God and it gives an account of itself however bad the circumstances. We can see this principle illustrated more fully in the gospel of John where the man who was blind from his birth had his eyes opened. It was that the works of God should be manifested -- not man's works, but "the works of God".

Ques. Would you say that God answers the breakdown publicly by an inward work which is according to Himself, bringing it out in His time?

J.T. That is right. It is unseen to begin with, but He creates the circumstances around it that are calculated to enhance it; first what apparently are limitations, but which result only in bringing out what the work is.

Ques. Do you think that should encourage us in prayer and general exercise?

J.T. Well, young people are prone to put things on others, instead of taking on responsibility. But the work of God is begun in them, and it is true to

itself and should be given scope. It is the same character as the work of God in Paul and in the most spiritual brother today. It is only a question of measure. So the Lord's word as to this man in John 9 is that neither did his parents sin nor he, but that the works of God should be manifested in him. You may say, Well, I can understand that in Paul, a man so much used of God; but it is not God's thought to limit it, for it applies to any christian, any believer, God having taken him up sovereignly. He has in mind that His works should be manifested in him, and the sequel in this instance showed how true the man was to the work of God in him. It led him outside; he was cast out; the procedure brought him side by side with Christ; he was owned of Christ and to him Christ revealed Himself as the Son of God. So Hannah is limited by God, but the limitation is to bring out what He had in mind for her -- this principle of priesthood. Hence we are told in the first paragraph we read, that she rose up after they had eaten in Shiloh, and after they had drunk; and then immediately it says, Eli the priest sat upon the seat by the doorpost of the temple of Jehovah.

Thus the position is made clear both as regards Hannah's husband and as regards her rival Peninnah, and as regards Hophni and Phinehas, and now Eli is brought into view and what is said is that he "sat upon the seat by the doorpost of the temple of Jehovah". You do not get anything about a seat in the temple earlier in this sense, and certainly not in the wilderness, there was nothing of it in the pattern given to Moses on the mount. It was an innovation, and an innovation to meet the laziness of the priest, for the priest was to stand in the house of the Lord, to stand even "by night". So that this is another feature brought into this picture in order that we might see the necessity of priesthood. The youngest christian here as looking round in christendom

should see that the bearing of the work of God in him is not only to overcome what is in himself that is contrary to God, but as he proceeds (this is a salient point in the book), he is to see also how the positive thing, what is of God in itself, working out, overthrows what is merely spurious.

The Scripture goes on to say that Hannah "was in bitterness of soul, and prayed to Jehovah, and wept much. And she vowed a vow, and said, O Jehovah of hosts, if thou wilt indeed look on the affliction of thy handmaid, and remember me, and not forget thy handmaid, but wilt give unto thy handmaid a man child, then I will give him to Jehovah all the days of his life, and there shall no razor come upon his head". Now that is a most intelligent prayer, the first one we get from her, it is uttered with the utmost seemliness, uttered in her heart. God searches the heart, and we have the Holy Spirit recording what she said in her heart, only her lips moved. I think that a consideration of this should afford light to every young person here, brother and sister alike, as to this great matter of priesthood showing itself in the expression of need which we surely have if we are subjects of the work of God.

Rem. What does this great thought of priesthood mean, when it is reached?

J.T. Well, it began here with prayer. When one prays, he is a priest: it works out further, of course, in the service of God, that is in worship. Even Eli is brought into the worship of God here, evidently through the influence of Hannah, showing what influence a real priest has. That is what I was thinking of, and in the next chapter it says she prayed, but there is not a word really of prayer in this wonderful production of chapter 2. It is a question of worship such as in the case of the apostle Paul and Silas in prison; in prayer they praised; it is a development, we progress in it.

Rem. Although we are sons, we should approach God in a priestly manner.

J.T. Well, that is the ground upon which it is worked out doctrinally. In the New Testament we are all sons and priests. We are priests as subjects of the work of God; it is a question of spiritual instincts.

Rem. That is helpful, as a son I am born, as a priest I am made.

J.T. In Scripture, birth is never connected with us as sons, as far as I see. Birth applies to Christ as a Son (Psalm 2:7); but we are brought into sonship on the principle of adoption; as children we are born. At the same time the idea of new birth necessarily underlies the whole position.

Rem. So the principle of priesthood is there at the inception of the work of God in our souls.

J.T. Yes, that is the thought, the thing shows itself. God loves to see His own work show itself. The Lord in Matthew's gospel stresses the thought of prayer and points out the habits of the merely official priest who loves to stand up and make long prayers. He says, "when thou prayest, enter into thy chamber, and having shut thy door, pray to thy Father who is in secret; and thy Father who sees in secret will render it to thee" (Matthew 6:6). That is an excellent word for all young christians -- to go in for secret prayer; pray in secret, and He will reward you openly; you come out dignified, your face will shine.

Rem. So it starts with the thought that everyone can take up -- prayer in secret.

J.T. Yes; you can see how this woman took it up.

Ques. Had she discovered what was lacking Godward?

J.T. I think so. She would not be critical; in the ordinary sense persons who are born of God characteristically are not given to mere criticism; the

flesh is given to criticism. The work of God shows itself in a positive way, not first pulling down, but building up. It is of God, you cannot dispute it. In due course godly criticism or judgment will come in, and there can be no doubt Hannah had an instinctive sense that things were not right. You can read that between the lines, but it is not so stated; because seemliness is a great point, especially in sisters, but the first thing is that you have something positive. Hannah was genuinely affected, but Eli thought it was drunkenness; he was like the onlookers at Pentecost. They thought that the blessed fruit of the Spirit was just drunkenness, which Peter exposes, and ridicules; so here, Eli is misjudging Hannah, but she is a true priest.

Ques. You referred to the Holy Spirit in reference to priesthood: would there necessarily be some appreciation of the work of the Spirit in a soul?

J.T. The epistle to the Romans helps, as I was remarking, as to how it develops in a christian, working out in chapter 12, where he is to present his body a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is his intelligent service. That is, the full thought of priesthood is intelligent service. The thought begins in chapter 1: 4 in the Lord raising the dead. It speaks of His being marked out Son of God in power by the Spirit of holiness. The Spirit of holiness is one thread running through the epistle, and intelligence goes with it. All is the outcome of this; the Spirit is introduced in chapter 5 as shedding abroad in our hearts the love of God, so that one is a priest feelingly. I think Hannah must have shown deep emotion, that the priest should think she was drunk. He may have alluded to the movement of her lips, but there must have been deep feeling there. I think the Lord loves that, that you are in earnest.

Rem. "Be not drunk with wine, in which is debauchery; but be filled with the Spirit" (Ephesians 5:18). Wine seems to be constantly

brought forward in contrast to the Spirit, does it not?

J.T. Yes, it is sometimes symbolical of the Spirit, but Hannah does not use the wine herself. She brought a bottle of wine into the house of God. That is a spiritual thought, it is that which stimulates spiritually, and of course that is the Holy Spirit, the new wine in the new bottles.

Rem. It is the work of God in souls, and is God's way to give an answer to Satan's imitation.

J.T. Yes, it works out in the overthrow of all that is spurious. It specially enters into the whole work of God during the last hundred years. Of course it was always present from Pentecost, but it has worked out remarkably in our own times, the unofficial priesthood manifesting itself and overthrowing, by showing its superiority, what is spurious, so that it is not merely a question of bringing things down doctrinally, but showing the real thing.

Ques. Does chapter 2: 35 help, "And I will raise up for myself a faithful priest, who shall do according to what is in my heart and in my mind; and I will build him a sure house; and he shall walk before mine anointed continually"? Is that the full development?

J.T. That is the development of it. The third chapter is God coming in and drawing attention to the thing from His point of view. First in chapter 2:27 by an unnamed man of God, as you will observe, meaning that it is someone of that character. Then the man in whom the idea of priesthood is to be set out -- Samuel -- gets his first direct word from God; it is in relation to Eli's priesthood, and the overthrow of it. The true priesthood is thus becoming intelligent as to what is there; so that the way it works out, as I said, is that it exposes what is merely imitative. Then you get the doctrine covering that. As a result you have the wonderful teaching

that we have had. We have the record now in writing and indeed it is going on. Here, chapter 3 brings that out, but before that you get the positive side seen in such a beautiful way in this woman, first in the expression of deep need, and then in the answer to it. The result of it is seen in worship to God, and it brings out worship even in the priest Eli; and then in the prayer here. The spirit of prayer develops into praise; for Hannah's prayer in chapter 2 is really a celebration. It says:"Hannah prayed, and said, My heart exulteth in Jehovah, my horn is lifted up in Jehovah; my mouth is opened wide over mine enemies; for I rejoice in thy salvation. There is none holy as Jehovah, for there is none beside thee, neither is there any rock like our God".

Ques. Malachi 2:7 says, "the priest's lips should keep knowledge". Is that expressed in Hannah in the work of God in her soul?

J.T. Quite so. You see how much is said of that very thing here. She goes on to say in verse 3: "For Jehovah is a God of knowledge, and by him actions are weighed. The bow of the mighty is broken, and they that stumbled are girded with strength". Then, in verse 8: "He raiseth up the poor out of the dust; from the dung-hill he lifteth up the needy, to set him among nobles; and he maketh them inherit a throne of glory; For the pillars of the earth are Jehovah's, and he hath set the world upon them. He keepeth the feet of his saints, but the wicked are silenced in darkness; for by strength shall no man prevail. They that strive with Jehovah shall be broken to pieces; in the heavens will he thunder upon them. Jehovah will judge the ends of the earth; and he will give strength unto his king, and exalt the horn of his anointed".

It is a wonderful expression at that time of spiritual intelligence, working out to the position of the universe; as we may say: "the pillars of the earth are Jehovah's, and he hath set the world upon them". Hebrews 11:3 says, "By faith we apprehend that the worlds were framed by the word of God". I think it is an immense encouragement that the young may begin in this way. How quickly you develop not only into priesthood, but into praise; not only in prayer, but in praise and in intelligence. Scripture speaks of our "intelligent service". You know what you are saying and doing.

Rem. This could not be reached by occupation with what is spurious, the intensity of the exercise is passed through in relation to what is positive.

J.T. That is what I was thinking, He brings in the positive, and then in the most effective way breaks down what is spurious. I think that is what is going on now. The whole of the hierarchy has been undermined; they do not admit it, of course, but it is true; the undermining is going on.

Rem. Did not the testimony of the blind man in John 9 leave it in that condition?

J.T. The whole position was morally exposed by what happened and hence the Lord is now free to bring Himself forward as the Son of God, to bring in another order of things. From that point in John you get a new system of things developed. In John 9 the Lord introduces Himself as the Son of God, to a man in whom the works of God are manifested, that is, the full thought of the work of God was there. It was when Jesus heard they had cast him out that He sought the man. He did not say a word to him when He opened his eyes, He waited till they had cast him out. This would bring out how the work of God is true to itself. The Lord watched the whole procedure, and when He heard that they had cast him out, He found him, as if to say, You are fit

for another world. So He says to him, "dost thou believe on the Son of God?" And the man replies, "And who is he, Lord, that I may believe on him?" As much as to say, If only I knew I would believe. He is ready for the divine proposal. As you are ready for things, you get them. So the Lord says, "Thou hast both seen him, and he that speaks with thee is he. And he said, I believe, Lord; and he did him homage".

Rem. Hannah passed through exercises that would prepare her for a certain course, and it awakened in her heart yearnings in correspondence with the heart of God, enabling God to come in in that way.

J.T. Yes; the Spirit of God presents things as they were. Although Hannah might not have said to another, I would like to provide a priest for the house: yet instinctively that is what she had in mind, because she asked for a man-child, and she makes a vow that he was to be for the house of God. It is God causing things to fit through our exercises. One has often thought that if one did not know why one was asking for certain things, God knows. He knows and He is using what is happening in His own way.

Rem. The thought of a man-child has in view the development of a man.

J.T. You have the idea stressed, emphasised, almost doubled as you might say in Revelation 12:5; it says, a "male son" -- a remarkable expression. God wants us to understand that He has something particular in His mind, so He doubles the idea, like Deborah, who is called a "woman prophetess". He wishes to impress the idea upon us.

Ques. Is God bringing in Christ characteristically?

J.T. That is in mind. He is the Priest whose house is to be built and we are the priesthood, the sure priesthood that is to stand; and it has therefore

a great bearing as regards christendom, in the way God has undermined it, so that it is exposed. It does not admit it, but it has been exposed.

Rem. So that this exercise is a necessary one, if God is to be served rightly.

J.T. Every young christian here ought to see that God has taken him up in this way, and that such circumstances as we have here indicate a divine procedure with him, they are part of his curriculum. One begins in this way with limitation, and his soul may cry out, Why is it so? Others have not these circumstances. Of course, one cannot be sure as to what others have, but this is the way God works. The evidence of the work of God is that there is a cry, and that is what is here.

Rem. In that way what is spurious will be cast off, will it not?

J.T. Well, it is exposed. The most effective way to set a thing aside is to expose it, and you can only expose it by bringing in the real thing.

Rem. The tendency is to bring the negative in first instead of the positive.

J.T. That is just what we ought to see; that there may be something of an official nature that is proved wanting and is to be set aside. But there is not to be a void; the idea is replacement, and that is what stands out so prominently in this dispensation, the superiority of christianity. Before judaism was formally set aside it was displaced morally.

Rem. Would God take us up, old and young, with the desire that the same yearnings that are in His own heart might be found in some measure in ours?

J.T. Well, just so, the outcome of the work of God in you or in me is to meet the exigencies of the testimony; we are left down here in relation to the testimony and the work of God shows itself in that way, it is true to itself.

Rem. I think that is most encouraging. I take it that the presentation of the truth of the position pulls down in oneself the power of what is around, and as the work of God becomes effective in the soul, one is able to stand by the testimony.

J.T. That is what comes out, and you see how this saint of God progresses in her own soul. Her husband says to her (verse 23), "Do what is good in thy sight". She is set free from that side, being assured (verse 18) that her petitions have been heard. It says, "And the woman went her way, and did eat, and her countenance was no more as before". That is, she has relief inwardly, she has assurance from God, and now her husband says to her, "Do what is good in thy sight: abide until thou hast weaned him; only, may Jehovah fulfil his word. And the woman abode, and gave her son suck until she weaned him. And she took him up with her when she had weaned him, with three bullocks, and one ephah of flour, and a flask of wine, and brought him to the house of Jehovah to Shiloh; and the boy was young. And they slaughtered the bullock, and brought the boy to Eli. And she said, Oh my lord, as thy soul liveth, my lord, I am the woman that stood by thee here to pray to Jehovah. For this boy I prayed; and Jehovah has granted me my petition which I asked of him. And also I have lent him to Jehovah: all the days that he lives, he is lent to Jehovah. And he worshipped Jehovah there".

You can see what a powerful influence she had in this contribution in the house of God, there perhaps had not been a priest like her there; even Eli is affected. That is the way the work of God takes in us. We move on into priesthood in such a way that we influence the saints, we have power with them in the meetings; a young brother gets up and gives thanks or prays and the whole meeting is affected. One has often seen it, there is a freshness about it.

It is the development of freshness like the growth of a tree or flower, it is a beautiful thing, the working of life in that way.

Ques. Why did she lend him and not give him?

J.T. At first (verse 11), she says, "I will give him". In using the word "lent" in verse 28, I suppose she had in mind that she would not lose him. I mean that we do not lose each other, we are all bound up together. She prescribes that he is to be there, "all the days of his life". He was to be lent to Jehovah, but the door is open for her to go up there. Lending a thing carries with it a claim on it, and God would know that; it was a link of love that God would delight in.

Rem. So that one stands identified always with the work of God in us.

J.T. Quite so, there is a special link between Hannah and Samuel in the house of God, and God would recognise it. You may be sure that she was welcomed every time she went to Shiloh with the coat. There is nothing said of her taking her son back with her at any time.

Rem. As you say, she does say in her prayer, "I will give him".

J.T. She had no other thought. The word lend is for a particular purpose, to imply that we have a claim, and surely we have a claim on each other, viewing it spiritually we never lose each other. Her prayer in chapter 2 is a remarkable triumph, showing that she had no sense of loss. She is really linked up with the house of God herself in the fact that someone there is lent by her; she is linked with him, and this composition is a great permanent contribution to the treasury of God. The bullocks and the wine were for immediate use, but this celebration is abiding as a contribution to the house, it is here for us today. There were Levites appointed

to look after such, and this is one of the things in the treasury of the house of God.

Rem. As we pass through these exercises, we also come into the joy of the result that God has His portion.

J.T. Yes, I believe that is the idea of lending, you get a link there. Even Samuel himself did not contribute this. We have a list of contributors in the book of Chronicles; even Joab's contributions and Saul's contributions are mentioned. Hannah's is one of the choicest productions in the treasury of God.

Rem. Priesthood belongs to the house of God.

J.T. That is its place. The priest's residence spiritually is the house of God, because, as we learn in Leviticus 8:35, the priests were for seven days in the sanctuary to keep the charge of Jehovah, and that is typically our whole dispensation.

Rem. It is very noticeable that the Spirit delights to record what springs from the women that God used -- Deborah, Hannah, Mary, etc.

J.T. The Scriptures are full of it. "Holy women who have hoped in God heretofore". Such women shine in the New Testament also.

Rem. Indicative of the great value of our sisters in the assembly.

J.T. Well, it works out that way. But what is before us works out in a wider way; that is, to subjective conditions among the people of God; it certainly ought to be seen in the sisters, because they are, as it were, the static part of the assembly. They are to be silent, but then that does not mean that they are not reservoirs of spirituality, which is the idea in them.

Rem. Is the subjective side more valuable to the testimony than the responsible element?

J.T. Well, what one always thinks of in visiting localities is what may be already there of God, and

this enhances what may be given. In service we are to link on with what is in the place.

Rem. I suppose in fact the two would be joined.

J.T. Yes, the male, in Scripture, is usually the responsible element, and it is supported by the volume of spirituality in the assembly, because the assembly is the residence of God -- a wonderful thought, the dwelling-place of God. The Spirit, being there in the saints, must have an outlet, and 1 Corinthians regulates that, and the brothers only take audible part.

Rem. I was thinking of Elkanah dwelling in a good place -- at Ramah.

J.T. Yes, but was he equal to it? He is called an Ephrathite, he is too local, I think. A levite is universal in his service. The Levites were placed round about the tabernacle in the wilderness.

Rem. Like Samuel being resident in the house, which is an important fact.

J.T. Quite so, that is what we get in chapters 2 and 3. First you get the boy in verse 11: "And the boy ministered to Jehovah in the presence of Eli the priest". Then in verse 18: "And Samuel ministered before Jehovah, a boy girded with a linen ephod". He is girded now with a linen ephod, which would mean that he has become sober; linen, tending to coolness, implies sobriety and balance. Although he did not yet know the Lord, these things are introduced as marks of development, and then it says in verse 26: "And the boy Samuel grew on". There is nothing interfering, he is moving on and is in favour both with Jehovah and also with men.

Now that being so, a man comes to Eli and exposes from the mouth of God the terrible condition of his house, and then we are told in the beginning of chapter 3, "the boy Samuel ministered to Jehovah before Eli. And the word of Jehovah was rare in those days; a vision was not frequent". That is

to bring out the conditions, and then we are told in verse 10: "And Jehovah came, and stood, and called as at the other times, Samuel, Samuel!" Wonderful evidence of God's interest in this boy! And of course it is not a mere historical matter, it speaks to every young person here tonight, for Scripture always speaks to us as we read it. It is for the person who reads it, and therefore it is a question of boys, of youth developing and how in due course God comes in and gives them enlightenment and understanding in all things. So the first thing here is that Samuel gets understanding about the false priesthood. It is exposed.

Rem. Is there not a parallel in the account we have of the Lord when He was sitting before the doctors and answering questions? There was development of another order of man which would set aside what was there present, and then He grew in favour with God and man.

J.T. A very beautiful and exalted parallel. He was not yet criticising what was in the temple; he was sitting in the midst of the doctors, hearing and asking questions, and they were astonished at His understanding and answers. That is the positive thing -- understanding and answers.

Rem. In the first chapter we get the weaning mentioned four times; that is a development also, I suppose.

J.T. Yes, we should not pass over that, it means that the natural is being surrendered. Hannah surrendered all natural claim. Weaning means that the natural influence is given up; weaning is a great matter in Scripture; it is stressed in this chapter.

Ques. Is there any thought in Samuel lying in the temple of Jehovah, where the ark of God was?

J.T. Well, the ark was there, but it was a peculiar posture for him to be in. Sleeping and sitting did not belong to the temple, but then they were there

before he came into it. Like many of us; many christians are going on with the old system of things and its ways.

Rem. I suppose it was because of what he saw in Eli that he was lying there.

J.T. You can understand that. It shows how young people follow the example set to them.

Ques. Would not weaning time be when the spiritual becomes prominent with us?

J.T. When the natural is given up. Those that might have influenced you naturally have relinquished their rights, and set you on your own feet as a spiritual person. It is an important word for parents in view of their children. In due time you put them on their own feet in the assembly, giving them an understanding that the natural claim is gone. Sometimes brothers are hindered in the assembly, because their natural relatives are present. That shows that we have not been weaned; in the assembly we are just brothers and sisters spiritually. The spiritual thought supersedes the natural there.

Rem. A man that is going on with God encourages the young to stand up, not to lie down.

J.T. Yes, in relation to the ark. You are not to lie there, you will be supported standing, the ark is the power of God and the glory of God, that is what comes out in this book.

Ques. Would you suggest then that natural relationships should not be a hindrance to setting up the testimony in a locality?

J.T. No, they should not be. If weaning has had its place the natural would not hinder. It is because weaning has not had its place that the natural has been too much allowed.

Rem. Yes, if it becomes a hindrance the natural is governing the spiritual.

J.T. It should never be allowed as a hindrance in principle. The word principle is expressive in these

matters. You take up a principle and stand by it even if your feelings contradict it.

Rem. God supports the principle.

J.T. Well, one of the great principles of God is weaning, it is a fixed one. If there are many persons in a place, whether naturally related or not, the thing is to go by the principle. The principle is that we are brothers and sisters in Christ, whatever we may be naturally, that is the principle and God will support it, and by prayer we move in relation to it, so that the natural does not hinder, and this is what is gained by weaning. The psalmist compares himself to a weaned child.

Ques. When the Lord said, "What have I to do with thee, woman?" (John 2:4), would that principle be there?

J.T. Yes, very much so. When His mother claimed the right to direct Him at the marriage feast, He called her "woman". You might say it is quite unsuitable to say that, but that is the point, it is the enforcement of a principle. He is now in the exercise of His service, and He asserts a great levitical thought (Deuteronomy 33:9). Nature was asserting itself, but the Lord rebuked it, even in His mother. And Mary was very adjustable. She immediately says to the servant, "Whatever he may say to you, do". Beautiful submission there!

Rem. That would come out in the house when they said, "thy mother and thy brethren seek thee without".

J.T. Quite so, they were outside calling for Him as if He had to go out to them. The Lord pours contempt on all that sort of thing. We are all members of the assembly. If I have ten brothers after the flesh alongside me, if all have the Spirit, why not take that ground?

Ques. Is that what formed a personal link with Samuel in the house? Hannah surrendered him naturally and retained him spiritually.

J.T. That is the idea; she retained her link, but on spiritual lines, she never afterwards asserted the natural claim. Why should we not, in this sense, retain links with one another? We never give one another up as on spiritual lines. Philemon was to possess Onesimus "fully for ever".

Rem. We all ought to learn to identify ourselves with the work of God.

J.T. Whatever our relationships with one another, that does not alter the fact that we being many are one body in Christ.

Rem. If there is a hindrance in exercising the power and principle of weaning, would it be a matter for concern that flesh is to be refused? I was thinking of Isaac and Ishmael when it came to weaning.

J.T. Ishmael mocked; the flesh is always there to persecute. So that if we give place to the principle of natural relationship of this kind existing, the enemy will work through the flesh.

Rem. You mean the enemy would seek to make that a hindrance.

J.T. He would certainly, if he can hinder he will. Sarah is the true mother there, who refuses the one born after the flesh. That thought is amplified in the New Testament, and the assembly in the power of the Spirit would say, "Cast out the maid servant and her son" (Galatians 4:30). Ishmael could not be heir with Sarah's son. But the point now for us is that even if we are naturally related we can come in on spiritual lines.

PRIESTHOOD IN THE BOOKS OF SAMUEL (2)

1 Samuel 6:10 - 16; 1 Samuel 7:5 - 11; 1 Samuel 23:6 - 12

J.T. We have got as far as chapter 3 with our subject, which is priesthood. It was pointed out that it arose in this book informally, first in Hannah and then in Samuel. Although Samuel was not of the sons of Aaron, he exercised priesthood with an ephod, and it came before us that in the introduction of the genuine priesthood, the spurious or merely official priesthood is exposed. When evil is exposed by the introduction of what is right in a positive way, it is morally at an end. It is only a matter of time for it to be set aside by the judgment of God, but there is no void, for the positive remains. So here the official priesthood in Eli is exposed not only to the man of God, but Jehovah tells Samuel about it. This comes out in chapter 3: 10 - 14. Then Samuel tells Eli, so that the judgment of God comes to Eli through the lips of this young man who is now officiating as priest, showing how young believers may come into the service at an early age, to be used of God in a priestly way.

We are told in verse 19 that Samuel grew and Jehovah was with him, and let none of his words fall to the ground; that is, He is seeing to it that the words of this young believer stand. There is divine support in what he is saying, and then we are told that Jehovah appeared again at Shiloh, and revealed Himself to Samuel at Shiloh by the word of Jehovah. He gets a fresh appearance from God, Jehovah showing Himself; His mind is made known by His word, and "what Samuel had said happened to all Israel". God is making His word, through His young servant, to stand. So that it is not only a question of one's own power in ministry, but God making it effective. That is always to be counted on,

God makes the ministry that He ordains effective, He gives it a peculiar character so that it remains in the hearts of the saints.

Then we get a sorrowful period, the ark of God taken, and no priest to care for it, it is in the hands of the enemy. It says, He "gave his strength into captivity, and his glory into the hand of the oppressor" (Psalm 78:61). It is a sorrowful period, and Samuel is out of sight for the moment. What we are to learn is that God takes care of His own testimony even without a priest, and that is what develops in chapters 5 and 6. In chapter 7 Samuel appears as leader and in a priestly way; and throughout his ministry until he dies he is marked by this, effective priestly service Godward and manward, and then we find it in the king, that is in David, in chapter 23.

What is in mind for this meeting, and what one would specially desire to dwell upon is instinct. We have already spoken of it in Hannah, but here we find it in the milch kine, and we see how in the absence of intelligent priesthood, as indeed is the case in the major part of christendom today, God is taking care of His interests, and it is through spiritual instinct in His people. Although unintelligent in a large measure, still it is there. The milch kine, of course, belong to the lower creation, but they are brought in here to show that divine instinct was symbolised in them. They are moving, not according to their natural feelings, but supernatural; which are divinely produced for the moment; they acted contrary to nature, and that is a sure evidence of the work of God. They moved according to His will because they "went by the one high way".

Ques. Is there this instinct in every believer that would move us in the right direction?

J.T. Yes, that is what comes out typically in chapter 6. The milch kine are introduced in a peculiar way. They have calves; that is, what would

demand natural feeling and care; they leave them evidently as governed by another principle than that of nature. The Philistines made the test that they were to "go up by the way of its own border". That would be the proof that it was not by chance. There are no accidents in the ways of God, He always shows that such things are after His own ordering; even the ark with the Philistines was not an accident. It was a disaster, of course, but it was divine ordering, the result of the government of God. He delivered His strength into captivity, He did it because of the state of the people.

Ques. Would you say that the natural man, although he has the proof, is not affected by it? The five lords return to their own country, whereas the milch kine moved contrary to nature.

J.T. Yes, the five lords were governed by nature; the kine were governed by what was above nature. God created testing natural conditions in their calves being shut up at home, and yet the kine are not held back. They are moved by another principle; and there is no hope at all for the testimony or for the salvation of God's people apart from this principle of divine instinct, and everyone who is truly born of God has it.

Ques. Whilst that would come into evidence where there is a lack of understanding of the truth, would you expect another element and more intelligence to be present with those who are brought up in the truth?

J.T. Well, that is the great advantage children of godly parents have, for they are brought up with right thoughts and terms. So that when the instinct begins to operate, they have an advantage over those who are brought up in Philistine circumstances, because after all, the Philistine is merely the big man in christendom, the big leader. The five lords represent

what has been built up in this way. They represent an authority of mutual arrangement.

Rem. Referring again to instinct, it would be a "good deposit". Timothy had a good deposit.

J.T. Yes, God had seen to that beforehand, that from a child he knew the Scriptures, and when the time came for instinct to operate, he had a great advantage.

Rem. It is a great thing, as governed by this instinct and principle, not to turn to the right hand nor to the left.

J.T. Well, that is the lesson in it, that in the case of a young person, or any person who is not well instructed, who has been brought up in Philistine surroundings, that is, worldly religious surroundings, if he is governed by his instincts and promptings, he will move in the right direction and the point is to get on that "one high way", and that is what I think is found in these verses. "They went by the one high way, lowing as they went". They felt the wrench of nature, but they were not turned aside by their feelings, they went straight on, and that is the sure way into the mind of God -- to go straight on according to right instinct. Paul says, "if not of my own will, I am entrusted with an administration" (1 Corinthians 9:17). His path was like the path of these kine, a path that he would not choose naturally.

Ques. Will not those who move under the promptings of instinct find that there is much in the natural sphere that will oppose them?

J.T. Yes; a lesson for all young people, in relation to the promptings of the divine nature, as we may call it, at least the new birth, for it is said "that which is born of the Spirit is spirit" -- "that which". It is to be taken up abstractly in the mind, it is a thing that is called "spirit". It is instinct peculiar to itself and it is true to itself, and if other elements do not interfere, it will move in one direction, it will

move in relation to the will of God. The gospel comes in of course to enlighten us, but in itself it moves according to the will of God.

Ques. So that is to be cultivated and followed -- cherished, would you say?

J.T. Well, that is the point for us all, that is the lesson to be learned; there is this instinct, and as we move in accord with it we get intelligence. The truth of God comes in to regulate us; that is what teaching is for, to regulate this thing. So that it gives character to the person, it is not only the thing, but the person takes up the character, and that is what is implied in the words "born anew" in John 3:3. They are radical, the whole person is affected by the work of God; all his moral being, all his faculties come under the effect of it.

Ques. Would the family thought be brought in with the two milch kine? It was Hannah previously.

J.T. Well, Hannah presents a higher thought. She recognises nature and moves according to God in relation to it at first, but gradually she emerges out of nature by weaning her son. Weaning is the emerging from nature, it shows the state of her soul; then she comes on to priestly ground intelligently with her bullocks and her bottle of wine, so that even Eli worships. She is a power in the house of God, and her own contribution in the next chapter is of the most exalted kind. It is not instinct as in the milch kine, she is a real priest now. "For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and at his mouth they seek the law" (Malachi 2:7). Here we are on the same principle as we saw with Hannah, but it is on lower ground, it is right instinct in Philistine connections. The milch kine are in Philistine territory, but they are set in relation to the ark, what is of Christ in that territory. There is a certain amount of intelligence there, as you will notice in these two chapters; if you read them carefully, you will see that while

it is Philistine territory, there is remarkable intelligence there. The priests, the diviners, know about the passage of the Red Sea; they know about what God did for Israel, corresponding with what we get in the systems around us, but they do not carry the ark. They propose something, and this something was the milch kine and the new cart, and God comes in in relation to these milch kine so that they have supernatural instincts. It is the female side because in the female the natural is strongest.

Rem. The ark is really carried by those who are truly affected by the work of God.

J.T. Yes. What should we have today, were it not that God worked this way one hundred years ago? He took up persons in Philistine territory, but there was intelligence there. Even the Philistines here have intelligence, and what they propose is more or less right and God comes in and uses it, but He uses it in relation to such instinct as He effects by His power.

Rem. So that in christendom there is a certain knowledge objectively of the truth of God.

J.T. That is what we are to learn here. They knew certain features of the truth; they knew about God acting for Israel, they knew something of the history of Israel, and we get that in the religious organisations about us. God uses it or there would be no light at all there. The light that came in in the recovery alluded to, was God coming in afresh as He did in John the baptist. It was God taking up men in these Philistine surroundings and giving them other instincts and enabling them to move in relation to these instincts, and hence, place being made for the Spirit of God and the Scriptures, the truth was ministered.

Rem. So they moved out of the sphere of the Philistines.

J.T. That is what happened exactly, corresponding

with these milch kine. The end of the journey here is this "great stone" (verse 14). It says, "the cart came into the field of Joshua the Beth-shemeshite, and stood there; and a great stone was there". It seems to me that the stone is a point reached of solidity and permanency, and in connection with the stone you have actual levites, that is, real servants of God; persons who are classified in that way. I believe what is seen here typically could be traced in the history of the assembly. In the recovery already mentioned the stone -- sure ground spiritually -- was reached, also the levites, the true servants of God; not milch kine any more. The idea of the milch kine merges in the levites; it is instinct merging in intelligence, for the levites represent intelligent ministry, and that is what we have, thank God. The sacrifice follows at once; the kine are offered: "And they clave the wood of the cart, and offered up the kine a burnt-offering to Jehovah". It is the Spirit of Christ in suffering entering into the position in mind.

Ques. Why is it spoken of as the ark of Jehovah, rather than the ark of the covenant?

J.T. It is here "the ark of God", "the ark of Jehovah", and "the ark of the God of Israel". As in foreign hands God's rights are involved, and hence He acts in power to recover the ark. His faithfulness, too, would enter into this position; implied, I suppose, in the ark of Jehovah being so often mentioned. "If we are unfaithful, he abides faithful, for he cannot deny himself" (2 Timothy 2:13).

Ques. Would this divine instinct eventually lead the soul under the sound of the gospel?

J.T. Yes. This is the position today and it is to exercise us all in regard to whatever ministry is presented to us. This instinct can be reckoned on in one born anew; what he further needs is the gospel, and the teaching. Paul taught the word of God at Corinth for eighteen months. (Acts 18:11).

Rem. So that God would address Himself to those in whom He has wrought.

J.T. Quite so; to all, of course, in the gospel, but there will be no result for Him unless there is new birth.

Rem. If they were piped to, they will dance.

J.T. That is right. They will answer to the testimony, answer to the ministry of the truth. That is what came out in the Lord's own history on earth, and what came out in the Acts.

Ques. Is it that we have an unction from the Holy One and know all things?

J.T. Well, it is something like it, only the unction involves that one has the Spirit; it contemplates the believer on the full ground of the gospel, having received the Spirit.

What happened at Beth-shemesh brings out the intelligent side. The Levites (verse 15), "took down the ark of Jehovah, and the coffer that was with it, in which were the golden jewels, and put them on the great stone; and the men of Beth-shemesh offered up burnt-offerings and sacrificed sacrifices the same day to Jehovah". That is to say, you have the service of God set up here. Will the Philistines join in? No. The five lords of the Philistines saw what had happened and went home. They saw what happened and so are under responsibility, but they are not having any part in the service of God as set up at Beth-shemesh, they "returned to Ekron the same day".

Ques. Is it like the disciples returning to their own homes as the Lord went to the mount of Olives?

J.T. Just so, but as He went up to heaven they did not go to their own homes, they returned from the mount of Olives and went to the upper room -- corresponding with the stone here. That is where the service of God began; the stone is a foundational thought. God, through right instinct in those who

served, has brought the ark back, and it is now on firm ground. The Philistines go home, they will not have anything to do with that. To apply it -- they know well enough; they may have the books of the ministry in their libraries, but they do not move, they use these books in relation to their own Philistine settings. They are just the natural man outwardly on divine territory, having knowledge, but unmoved spiritually. Whereas christians characteristically want to move with the light that God gives.

Rem. The truth as reached becomes a standard and we are not to go back from it.

J.T. That is the principle; the foundation of God stands, and that is the ground you are on. I believe that is what the stone here signifies.

Ques. What is the thought in "they clave the wood of the cart"?

J.T. Well, the whole movement as reaching this point seems taken on by God. The Levites appearing would indicate that now the service can be resumed. The action of the Levites here is more than historical; it has spiritual significance. They so far represent the mind of God as taking charge of the ark. The care of the "golden jewels" sent with the ark as a trespass-offering is to be noted as fitting. The cart that David employed is not used in this way. God makes allowance for ignorance in a movement of this kind; whereas David's use of a cart was inexcusable, hence the divine resentment expressed. Here, divine property is emerging from Philistine influence under mixed conditions, and God, represented in the Levites, takes it on.

Ques. Are these instincts seen in Jacob from the beginning?

J.T. Yes. He took his brother by the heel. That is, he is a supplanter, meaning that he set aside the man after the flesh.

Ques. Are not the kine and the subjective element

one and the same thing? Do they not go with the spiritual instinct?

J.T. I think wherever you get the female in this way it means the subjective side, not necessarily the intelligent side, but the instinct that is true. There is something in Israel now; God began to work in Israel after the terrible disaster in chapter 4, and there is, so far, recovery. Hence chapter 7 is based on this. Samuel says, "Gather all Israel" -- gather, that is what he proposes. There is no gathering at Beth-shemesh; it is just the culmination of a movement characterised by right instinct. It culminates in the Levites; they were ordained to take care of what was of God, and especially the ark, which they alone, as under the ordering of the priests, were to handle. The next thing is, the intelligent priest says in chapter 7: 5, "Gather all Israel to Mizpah, and I will pray Jehovah for you. And they gathered together to Mizpah, and drew water, and poured it out before Jehovah, and fasted on that day, and said there, We have sinned against Jehovah. And Samuel judged the children of Israel in Mizpah". Now you have a gathering, there is a completely new start under an intelligent priest. So that the next thing, after a believer moves out of Philistine circumstances, is that God claims him. He says, You belong to Me, you are Mine. Then the "great stone" and the sacrifice offered up in chapter 6, form the basis for gathering. The foundation of God is there and thus, as on sure ground, we may proceed. In 2 Timothy 2:19 the firm foundation of God is said to stand, and then "Let every one who names the name of the Lord withdraw from iniquity". The principle of gathering follows on this.

You can see that we have the basis of gathering here, and priestly movement comes to light; it issues from Samuel, the man whom God had taken up and whose words were not falling to the ground.

He was recognised as a prophet from Dan to Beer-sheba; it is a universal matter.

Ques. Would you say in that gathering together there is self-judgment?

J.T. Well, that is what comes out here. The movement begins with Samuel as the ark is restored, but it is irreverently handled at Beth-shemesh; and even at Kirjath-jearim it is with an individual, although cared for with some regard for its holy dignity. "And the men of Kirjath-jearim came, and fetched up the ark of Jehovah, and brought it into the house of Abinadab on the hill, and hallowed Eleazar his son to keep the ark of Jehovah". Well, these are not suitable circumstances for the ark; it is not properly cared for, and how could it be till the people are brought round in self-judgment? It is said that "the time was long; for it was twenty years", as if the writer had sorrow of heart that it was there.

"And Samuel spoke to all the house of Israel, saying, If ye return to Jehovah with all your heart, put away the strange gods and the Ashtoreths from among you, and apply your hearts unto Jehovah and serve him only; and he will deliver you out of the hand of the Philistines. And the children of Israel put away the Baals and the Ashtoreths and served Jehovah only". A word of prophetic ministry that the Lord might give to any brother and which may be spread abroad amongst the saints corresponds. It is the voice of God, it may be spoken or printed, it is carried forward in the power of the Spirit and there is a general movement. And now Samuel says, "Gather all Israel to Mizpah".

Rem. It is noteworthy, it is to "all Israel".

J.T. Yes, it is the full thought, which always marks faith, as seen in Moses as setting up twelve pillars, and in Elijah building an altar with twelve stones.

Rem. Although things are broken, we keep all in mind.

J.T. Yes. It is the abstract idea; you get later, "all Israel that were present". They did not all come, but this fact did not deprive those that did come of the advantage. What you get in Josiah's day is "all ... Israel that were present" (2 Chronicles 35:18). They were few, but they got the gain of what was there. They are answering to the divine call.

Rem. If an assembly meeting is called, but all the members of the assembly in a locality are not present, those that are there are expressive of the whole.

J.T. That is right; so that the Lord brings it down in Matthew to "two or three". First "two of you", and then "two or three gathered together unto my name". John mentions one, he makes provision for one person who is doing the will of God; that the Father and the Son come to him (John 14:21 - 23).

Rem. So that as spiritual instincts are developed and the principles of God are known, you begin to move in a way that is proper to all. Is that the idea?

J.T. Yes. There is only one order of things. The apostle said, "thus I ordain in all the assemblies".

Now the people respond to the word of Samuel, who says, "Gather all Israel to Mizpah". The next thing is to make confession, to acknowledge the state of things. They poured out water on the ground before Jehovah; it will not be lost water; it is not such as the wise woman spoke of; she took this up with less intelligence. She said, "which cannot be gathered up again" (2 Samuel 14:14); but here it is poured out before Jehovah so that it can be gathered up, it can be taken up on new ground. The power of God can take it up.

Rem. Whilst they did not have a definite word for that, is it the outcome of Samuel's ministry?

J.T. Quite so. It belongs to this book. The woman of Tekoa took it up, but the words are put into her mouth, and you cannot get spiritual thoughts that way.

Ques. I suppose the question of righteousness would be raised, would it not?

J.T. That is the thought, follow righteousness, faith, love, and peace, that is what Samuel has in mind here. He had already spoken to them about their state and enjoined them to put away their idolatry and apply their hearts to Jehovah and serve Him only. Then verse 6 says, "And they gathered together to Mizpah, and drew water, and poured it out before Jehovah, and fasted on that day, and said there, We have sinned against Jehovah". Then it says, "Samuel judged the children of Israel in Mizpah". You have authority there, you have judgment; the house of God, you might say, is re-set up.

Ques. Is this a word of Samuel's prophecy in that way?

J.T. Well, it is that sort of thing; it brings in conviction.

Ques. Do the facts here suggest this path must be taken up in the face of all that may oppose, and God waited upon for the issue?

J.T. Quite so. The Philistines were not far away, they would attack at a moment like this. The Philistines heard that the children of Israel were gathered, and the lords of the Philistines went up against Israel; it is the leading persons who can act with authority. Samuel accepts Israel's smallness and offers a sucking lamb, a beautiful tribute to the priestly intelligence that was suitable at a time like this. It was as if to say, I have no power to meet these learned men, no power to deal with them

on their own ground. We have to learn another ground, the sucking lamb does not denote any military power, it denotes weakness and dependence on God; weakness that honours God. It is offered up "a whole burnt-offering to Jehovah", and He accepts that. It is a type of Christ, but in a small way and in a dependent way, a sucking lamb.

Ques. Does it speak of the beginning of things with us?

J.T. I think so, it is the smallness of things, but the apprehension of Christ expressed thus is of intrinsic value; as the sucking lamb is small but precious, it is according to the way Christ is presented in the book of Revelation. The Lamb there is a diminutive thought but precious. It represents the instrumentality through which, in the circumstances, God is operating.

Rem. Here it was a whole burnt-offering, as you said.

J.T. That is important to notice, it is a whole idea. We are not congregationalists, there is only one assembly; "one body and one Spirit ... one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all" (Ephesians 4:4 - 6). As delivered from Philistine influence we come back to that thought.

Rem. Here it is "the things which are not, to bring to nought the things that are".

J.T. Quite so, that is what is meant here. Samuel rightly gauges what was in keeping with the moment, and the sucking-lamb represents that. It is typical in a peculiar and touching way, so that God came in most signally. He thundered with a great thunder, we are told. It is refreshing to see that the people's state was in accord with what Samuel did. Verse 8 says, "the children of Israel said to Samuel, Cease not to cry to Jehovah our God for us, that he will save us out of the hand of the Philistines. And Samuel took a sucking-lamb, and offered it as a

whole burnt-offering to Jehovah; and Samuel cried to Jehovah for Israel, and Jehovah answered him. And as Samuel was offering up the burnt-offering, the Philistines advanced to battle against Israel. And Jehovah thundered with a great thunder on that day upon the Philistines, and discomfited them; and they were routed before Israel". So that it is a complete victory.

It is the quality that is in view, and as you pursue the history here, you find that what marks Samuel throughout is prayer, and God answering prayer. This chapter is a sort of an epitome of Samuel's whole life, and all that follows is the opening up of what was in that life. It all culminates in David; we see these features, the priesthood and prophecy, in David himself, and in the new system of things which he furnished.

Ques. Was it Samuel's offering? God honoured it.

J.T. Samuel was leading; it was his intelligence gauging what was suitable. Israel did not ask him to do this; he knew what was there; the character of the work of God, the extent and the quality of it, and his offering was in keeping with this.

Rem. The quality of the offering is seen in that he gave God His place first, and God honoured that. It is the service of God, and if we give God His place He will answer.

J.T. That is the idea, the thought I think is discernment as to what was actually in the place, in this city for instance. What is there in the place? We ought to be able to estimate that, otherwise we shall be deceived. Priestliness involves discernment, ability to weigh things, to gauge conditions.

Ques. Is it according to the understanding of that, the answer from God comes?

J.T. Yes, God expects us to know just what there is. In the Corinthian epistles we have constantly something to support what we may be saying; and

corresponding to what is before us now, the apostle gauges what is there from the very start; he measures things -- indeed he brings in the idea of the God of measure. We are not to be occupied with numbers only, but with the quality of the persons, weighing as well as measuring and counting.

Rem. The movement of the enemy here shows how he would spoil what is most precious. I notice it was while Samuel was offering the sucking-lamb, while the burnt-offering was going up, that the Philistines moved.

J.T. He would rob God of what is most pleasing to Him. Leviticus gives us the thought of the burnt-offering. It is a whole idea, Christ devoting Himself entirely to God. It was offered up entirely to God; all that belonged to the priest out of it was the skin; that is, the thought of it would be reproduced in the priest. Here the offering is small, but it was, typically, Christ presented to God in a sense peculiarly precious to Him, hence the attack.

Rem. Having reached God's thought, the "men of Israel" (verse 11), come into view now.

J.T. Well, just so; quality, no doubt, is there. Paul says, "quit yourselves like men; be strong".

Ques. Would the sucking-lamb give the thought of entire dependence?

J.T. Yes. Now to come to David: of course there is a great deal that we are all conversant with in his history, but the point before us in this reading is priesthood, that we may see in David how this thought develops. In chapter 21 he goes to the house of God. The Lord, referring to this section in the New Testament, says it is the section of Abiathar the high priest, a section into which priesthood enters; the supreme thought of priesthood is there. He is not called high priest anywhere else, as far as I know. But then the priesthood is also shown in David here. I have no doubt that the Lord had in

mind that what was current at the time was in keeping with the priesthood. There is ascension in the book in this sense until we reach the thought of high priesthood in Abiathar, and of course that is opened up to us in the epistle to the Hebrews. It is noted in our chapter that the hand of the Lord was against the Philistines all the time of Samuel. God's hand is always with the true priesthood. I hope we may pursue this subject later, and see how it culminates and develops in David. This will run into the next book, and in this connection we do well to keep in mind the Lord's remark as to this section. His comments on any section of the Old Testament throw light on it. I think the Lord's remarks in Mark 2:25 - 28 throw light on this chapter. He says, "Have ye never read what David did when he had need and hungered, he and those with him, how he entered into the house of God, in the section of Abiathar the high priest, and ate the shew-bread?" David was coming in here unofficially, but he was the real priest, for the system under Saul had broken down. David's movements here are on a very high level.

David knew more about the shew-bread really than Ahimelech. Ahimelech questions whether he should have it; it was in measure common, but it was food all the same, just what David needed. Then Saul slays the priests by the medium of Doeg the Edomite, the false brother. He slays eighty-five priests of Jehovah wearing "the linen ephod". Think of the temerity of a man called a brother slaying the priests! It may have been judicial, (1 Samuel 2:27 - 36), but the malice of Satan is seen in it -- in view of the place true priesthood was acquiring at this time. Priestly service in this section is really David's service, not so much Abiathar's. That is Christ typically coming in unofficially in the exercise of priesthood -- as seen in the gospel of Luke.

Rem. David said, "with me thou art in safe keeping".

J.T. Quite so, Abiathar was under his protection, but the fact is stated that David was praying already, when Abiathar came to him to Keilah having an ephod with him. He had the full symbol of priesthood, which David used. Although the priests are slain, the priesthood remains in Abiathar, but it is really exercised in David. The Lord says, "what David did". We should get our eye on what David did in this section.

Ques. What did David mean when he said the bread was common?

J.T. I think the allusion would be to the system, the system that was being overthrown. I think that is what he meant, but for the moment there was what he needed, the bread and the sword. Really the whole system is wrong and left like a shell; the government of God overtakes it, but there is a remnant out of it. Paul says, referring to this same thought, "God has not cast away his people:" there was a remnant, of whom he was one, (Romans 11:1 - 6).

Ques. Would you say that exercising priesthood was a point of victory that David reached over the false system?

J.T. That is right, it is moral victory, and that is what the Lord means. He says, "Have ye never read what David did?" The Lord was showing Himself at that time as the true David. He had entered into the cornfields, and the disciples rubbed the corn and ate of it. He defends them in this. He is inaugurating the spirit of liberty, that belongs to christianity, in true priestly power; that is what He meant. It was moral victory, and we are to stand fast in the liberty wherewith Christ has made us free. That is what I think it means, what David did involves priestly liberty. He knew better than the official priest what to do. If we bear in mind

what God said early in the book of Samuel, that He is going to establish a priestly house. We shall see that it all points to Christ, and He refers in this point to what David did. The Lord is defending His disciples, and the new order of things, which morally was already there in Him and His disciples.

Ques. Would that be instinct or intelligence on the part of the disciples?

J.T. Well, I think it followed an example; God operates on the principle of leadership. The Lord went into the cornfields, it does not say that He ate the corn. The disciples went further than He did; the acted in the liberty which He afforded, and He defended them.

Rem. David was very much like the Lord in that; he did not belong to the official priesthood, but he acted as priest.

J.T. Well, exactly. Paul refers to certain brethren brought in unawares "to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ". We do not want to surrender our liberty, to come again into the bondage of what is merely official.

PRIESTHOOD IN THE BOOKS OF SAMUEL (3)

1 Samuel 30:7, 8; 2 Samuel 2:1; 2 Samuel 6:14, 15

J.T. It will be known that our subject is priesthood as seen in 1 and 2 Samuel. We have traced it from the beginning, in what is seen in Hannah, and then in Samuel, and finally in David. We noted how the Lord Jesus, in His service here, refers to this subject as in these books; calling attention to what David did in the section of Abiathar the high priest. How he entered into the house of God and partook of the shewbread, properly belonging to priests, but David partakes of it, as if to bring out what we are engaged with, how priesthood is taken up in an informal way. The Lord accredits it by alluding to it approvingly, throwing light on the whole of this section of Scripture. He accredits what is taken up informally, but taken up rightly; taken up according to God.

Christ is the Leader in christianity, indeed He is the Leader in everything for us, and we have the idea of leadership attached to Him in four different settings in the New Testament. He is the Leader, or Originator of life, (Acts 3:15). He is Leader and Saviour to give repentance and remission of sins, (Acts 5:31). He is Leader of our salvation, (Hebrews 2:10), and He is the Leader and Completer of faith, (Hebrews 12:2). So that in regard to the subject before us, He initiated the idea of liberty, in entering the cornfields. His disciples went further than He did in plucking the corn, and He brings in the section of Scripture before us to defend them in what they did. The Lord was leading in this way, He was taking up priesthood unofficially, but He is now established officially, as a High Priest in heaven, and we as believers, as disciples, having the Spirit, are constituted priests

accordingly, and it is for us to stand in this liberty, the liberty in which He has set us free.

Rem. In the first scripture read David does not move except under Jehovah's direction.

J.T. That is a mark of priesthood, it is most important for us that we have access to God to get His mind. We are enjoined to draw near to the throne of grace to obtain mercy and find grace for seasonable help, (Hebrews 4:16). We are also said to have access to the holiest by the blood of Jesus, and on this ground urged to "draw near". So that it is a feature of our subject that we have liberty to draw near to God, and ask Him for guidance. David said to Abiathar the priest, Ahimelech's son, "Bring near to me, I pray thee, the ephod. And Abiathar brought the ephod near to David. And David inquired of Jehovah, saying, Shall I pursue after this troop? shall I overtake them? And he said to him, Pursue; for thou shalt assuredly overtake them and shalt certainly recover". The explicitness with which the answer comes is striking, and is set down for us for our learning, that we might have liberty to draw near to God in all matters of difficulty, personally or collectively; He will never fail us.

Ques. The Lord says, "If therefore the Son shall set you free, ye shall be really free" (John 8:36). Is that further on, or is it connected with this?

J.T. It is related to what is before us. The passage in Mark 2 is illustrative of that -- how the Son sets us free. The disciples are following, and governed by His example, for the idea of leadership is that one goes before. The Lord went before into the cornfields, and it was on the sabbath, so that He was violating current religious feeling and custom. True priesthood is sure to do that, sure to run across current religious feeling, and bring on persecution, but then the Lord has done it, and that is enough. They went further than He did, showing

that the atmosphere promoted liberty for them, and He defends what they do. We can reckon on that, that in following His example, although it brings us into persecution, the Lord will defend us.

Ques. Is priestly approach individual or collective?

J.T. Both. This prayer is individual, Abiathar is brought into it. Abiathar in a way would stand for high-priesthood here, so that "having a great priest over the house of God, let us approach". It is open to us, because we have Him. Therefore any individual can take it up in that way, according to the Lord's word, "when thou prayest, enter into thy chamber, and having shut thy door, pray to thy Father who is in secret" (Matthew 6:6). If it be in the meeting for prayer together, it is all on the same ground, the ground of drawing near to God, by faith, through Christ. We have (a great point in Hebrews) a great High Priest.

Ques. Would verse 6 strengthen that thought: "but David strengthened himself in Jehovah his God"?

J.T. Well, it showed his knowledge of God. He would have in mind earlier instances of God's answers in the way of help in time of need. It is a very remarkable word as stressing the immense importance of maintaining a knowledge of God. The expression indicates an innate power; he strengthened himself, in Jehovah his God. It would be in the knowledge he had of God; a feature that marked David is that he always had recourse to God; he always had confidence in God, however bad things were. Even if it be guilt in one's conduct, you can always have recourse to God, He will never turn you aside.

Rem. You have spoken of liberty: it would help some of us if you would say a little of what is in your mind in connection with the word.

J.T. Well, allusion has been made to John 8:35, 36. The Son is said to be over the house. The Lord said to the Jews, "Now the bondman abides not in the house for ever: the son abides for ever. If therefore the Son shall set you free, ye shall be really free". And in Galatians 5:1 the apostle says, "Christ has set us free in freedom; stand fast therefore, and be not held again in a yoke of bondage". The liberty is there, He is the Leader in it. He moves in a certain way with a view to the inauguration of something, and others have liberty to follow in that way. The Lord says in the same section in John, "and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free". It is known truth that sets us free. The great general thought is that the Son sets us free as in the house, but "the truth" adjusts us in detail. So that all the meetings we have such as this, year in and year out, week in and week out, are to that end. The needs of the saints are met, and at the same time they are adjusted as to things that might hold them in bondage, interfere with their spiritual liberty; the Holy Spirit is here for that purpose.

Rem. Would you say that the truth would set us free from evil things, and the Son would set us free to enter into the things of God?

J.T. Yes. The Son's liberation is more positive. The truth helps in detail, so that you take up the epistle to the Romans and the epistle to the Galatians for individual liberty, and then you take up the Corinthian epistles for collective correction, and the epistle to the Colossians liberates us in life. Ephesians leads us on into the heavenly side, and sets us free in relation to what is up there. So that the truth is in parts; we know in part, and it comes to us as we are ready for it.

What comes out in 1 Samuel 30 is a great disaster and yet, although the position seems to be irretrievable, it is remarkable that the Amalekites

did not slay anyone, the persons were all preserved. There is hope so long as the persons are preserved, and the next thing is to get at them, and that is the point in David's soul. What is he to do? He is in terrible stress, the people were about to slay him, and his conscience would be active because he had been with the Philistines instead of looking after his people and his property, but he knew God, and that is the great point; that we always maintain liberty of approach to Him.

Ques. David slew the lion and the bear by his God. Would that experience enter into this?

J.T. It would, as regards his knowledge of God. You may be sure he would have recourse to God in prayer before he did that great exploit. He overcame them by God's power, "Jehovah who delivered me ..." he says. We have instances of his prayers. The books of Psalms open up what a man he was in this respect. We see him in them both in prayer and in praise. In truth, that is where you get David the priest.

Ques. Will you help us as to the ephod?

J.T. Well, the ephod was the principal priestly garment, as we learn in Exodus 28. Abiathar brought an ephod when he fled to David. Scripture does not say he wore it. I do not think Abiathar characteristically represented the thought as he came to David. At first it was priesthood in the abstract; soon to take form, according to God, in David. That is why the subject is of such significance in this section, because so much is made of the ephod as brought by Abiathar to David. It is the time of his rejection, especially here in Ziklag, where he is in great distress. So that this first book of Samuel as regards David's priesthood should be a great lesson to us, especially because we are in a world of stress; our position in the truth involves constant stress of circumstances. The enemy is all round and ever

ready to attack, and this section teaches us how to go on to find deliverance, that is, there is priestly liberty of access to God.

Ques. What would answer to the ephod in the New Testament language?

J.T. Well it is the possession of the Spirit, I think. Romans furnishes it. Romans is an ephod book. That is where the christian comes into the truth in the order in which God would have it entered into. Priesthood necessitates the understanding of holiness, and liberty to speak to God, all, of course, based on redemption. Holiness, chapter 6, is worked out through practical righteousness. In chapter 7 we are enjoined to "serve in newness of spirit, and not in oldness of letter". Then you get in chapter 7 again, "I myself with the mind serve God's law ..." That is a priestly touch, serving the law of God. It is not the legal system, but the law of God which must always be observed. In chapter 8 we have liberty by the Spirit: "for as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God". Then in chapter 12 we present our bodies a living sacrifice, a reference to priesthood. So that the youngest christian, brother or sister, takes the thought up as thus seen; it works out from obedience to the truth from the heart. You now have the ephod, the characteristic priestly garment. This involves not only service Godward, but also manward. The ephod contemplates love for all saints, and hence a readiness to serve them. One is thus constituted a priest according to God's mind, and the exercise of that priesthood sets aside effectively all spurious claims to priesthood. In our chapter we have priesthood marked by the knowledge of God, enabling the believer as in distress to draw near to Him for needed help. That is an immense thing, whether it be in the house with the children, or in

the office, where you have to contend with difficulties, or in the street, you can turn to God.

Ques. Continue therein with God. Is that the thought?

J.T. Yes; as with God in our circumstances, we can count on Him.

Rem. The requests of one having an ephod would be sure to have an answer.

J.T. That is what you get here. Of course, there are things that we may not get answers about immediately, because we may be burdened by things that, if we only knew God better, would not be a burden to us. So Peter tells us to cast all our care upon God. Whatever you think is a care, cast it upon Him, because He cares for you, and what you get is "the peace of God, which surpasses every understanding".

Rem. The Lord's word in Mark 2 puts this on the elevation of the High Priest, referring to David in that way.

J.T. I think so, that is what is meant. Whether I am in the office, and perhaps taxed, unusually taxed by something that happens, by my employer or my fellow employees, whatever it be, I am always linked up with high-priesthood in Christ. Hebrews teaches that we are linked up with a great system in connection with Christ in heaven. A key word in Hebrews is "having". Christians are spoken of as "having a great priest over the house of God". You may say He has us, but what a wonderful thing that we have Him! And we have Him in that capacity, as before God a High Priest in heaven; One who ever lives to make intercession for us, as though He never does anything else, so that we draw near.

Ques. John was in the Spirit, would that be the ephod?

J.T. Well, that is more; of course it is included, but he is outside of his natural reckonings, outside

of his ordinary mixed condition here; it thus goes beyond what we are speaking of.

There is a difference between the asking for things and the Urim; the Urim is a thought beyond that. In Saul's time there was no answer even by Urim, that is, the state was not right -- the state of soul -- but John was certainly in the right state of soul. Urim means Lights, and the Thummim, Perfections, according to the best authorities. Thummim alludes to the state of a person, and light comes in relation to it. These features are seen perfectly in Christ, indeed they refer to Him as High Priest in heaven. But, as we see in Saul, the state of those obtaining the benefit of them is also involved. Alluding to Levi in Deuteronomy, the Thummim is put before the Urim, because he had proved in his path in the wilderness, at least typically, that he answered to the mind of God.

Ques. Does what you have said about the ephod link on with overcoming?

J.T. It attaches to the christian as having the Spirit, that he can ever have recourse to God, even if he sins. Of course, if I have iniquity in my heart the Lord will not hear me, but as having failed in any way and judged myself on account of this, I have recourse to God directly.

Rem. The sword of Goliath was wrapped in a cloth.

J.T. I think that was the state of things in the house of God at that time. The ephod itself is not referred to as worn, and the sword was not being used. It was in keeping with what we have already spoken of as to the condition under that priesthood. There was no energy. It was in keeping with the position in the other part of the book, where Eli is sitting on a seat, and he and others sleeping in the temple. The word of God is likened to a sword, and it is living and operative; it is not to be inactive.

Ahimelech says, "it is here wrapped in a cloth behind the ephod". Neither the ephod nor the sword was in use. You will not have much testimony if these things are not in use.

Rem. They are not to be used when we are ministering to our brethren, we then have to leave the sword behind.

J.T. Why should we? We are, I trust, using it here now! The flesh in us, if at all active, has to be met by the sword of the Spirit. This must be ever present with us. The point is, it should be used, and the priesthood should be active, and this is seen in prayer. Every creature of God is good, for it is sanctified by the word of God, that is the active word of God, and prayer. They ought to mark our households and the assembly.

Ques. Does the wearing of the ephod involve the use of the sword?

J.T. I think it does. The two things stand together in Hebrews 4:12 - 16. First you have the description of the word of God: "the word of God is living and operative, and sharper than any two-edged sword, and penetrating to the division of soul and spirit, both of joints and marrow, and a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. And there is not a creature unapparent before him; but all things are naked and laid bare to his eyes". That is the position from God's side. God in His faithfulness keeps on operating through His Spirit so that everything is exposed to myself: if not to the brethren, to myself, because of inward divine operations. Then the Spirit of God goes on to tell us about the priesthood. "Having therefore a great high priest who has passed through the heavens ... Let us approach therefore with boldness to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy, and find grace for seasonable help". The two things stand together, and they are the means furnished for us to get through, and it seems

to me that under Ahimelech and under Eli, they were not used. David coming in exposes the whole position, and that is what the Lord has in mind in alluding to that incident: "what David did".

Ques. Was this attack of the Amalekites on the company?

J.T. It was against the whole position which faith would take account of at the time. It was indeed a very terrible thing, and David was at fault in measure, but even so he knew God, and God will never fail us if we really turn to Him in contrition of heart. David acts intelligently here, he asks for the ephod.

Ques. Is this side of the matter purely individual?

J.T. I think it is so far.

Ques. What condition of soul then would one be brought into as set forth in David in type here occasioned by the loss of his two wives and Ziklag burnt with fire? What point in our soul's history does this answer to?

J.T. Well, he rises to a type of Christ here, that is another thing. In fact, we come on to the ground of the epistle to the Romans where Christ has recovered everything. We are only dealing with one point, that is priesthood, but the chapter is the recovery of everything, that is, the epistle to the Romans. This chapter and the first chapter of the next book bring out that David was in the spirit of that epistle, he was overcoming evil with good.

Rem. So this exercise of priestly privilege would bring one into all the gain of what had been recovered in Romans.

J.T. That is right. David rises to a type of Christ, he "recovered all". You will notice that none of the people were killed. Romans contemplates not dead people, but people alive in responsibility, and the Lord has recovered everyone on those lines. The spirit of chapter 1 of the next book is one of great magnanimity, great grace; overcoming the evil with

good; a great moral victory. He was pained by the tidings of Saul's death. So deep were his feelings that he composed a song, the song of the bow, written in the book of Jasher. David was not feigning sorrow; it was the anointed of the Lord that fell at the hands of the Philistines, and he felt this.

Rem. It is very beautiful indeed: it shows how morally and spiritually he could wear the ephod.

J.T. Well, quite so, all in accord with the epistle to the Romans -- a great victory; overcoming evil with good. "If therefore thine enemy should hunger, feed him; if he should thirst, give him drink" (Romans 12:20). That is the principle in this chapter, showing how we are to act in such circumstances. We become morally superior, and give up hard feelings about others, although they may be our enemies; we are to heap coals of fire upon their heads.

Ques. Is that bringing in a priestly condition?

J.T. Yes. It shows what Romans does for the believer.

Rem. That would explain Peter's speaking of a royal priesthood.

J.T. Just so. First, a holy priesthood for approach to God, and then a royal priesthood: "that ye might set forth the excellencies of him who has called you out of darkness to his wonderful light" (1 Peter 2:9). The royal priesthood is more public.

Rem. So that there is recovery come in by way of priesthood.

J.T. It is through getting to God here, you thus get power in your soul. David strengthened himself in Jehovah his God. Faith was there as latent power in his soul. In this chapter and in the beginning of the next book he stands out beautifully, showing how suitable he was to take on the kingship. The next thing is ascent, but before we start going up we must have everything right below, so that whatever difficulties arise among us, we never have victory

until we overcome evil with good, it is not simply getting a brother out of the way, but overcoming evil with good.

Ques. Concerning the Urim and Thummim, do you connect that with the Lord's words, "if ... thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light".

J.T. That is right, the single eye corresponds with the Thummim. It is the state of your soul, it is a perfect state in that sense and your whole body is luminous.

The next prayer that we get is in the next book, chapter 2: 1. It is the next move; after a victory what will be the next move? What is the next move now that the Lord has given a victory to you over your enemies? In truth Romans is victory over oneself, that is Og, the big man of Numbers 21. Now what is the next move? This verse corresponds. "It came to pass after this that David inquired of Jehovah, saying, Shall I go up into one of the cities of Judah? And Jehovah said to him, Go up. And David said, Whither shall I go up? And he said, Unto Hebron". The first answer gave him leave to go up to any part of Judah; he is not content with that, he wants it to be more definite. It is now a question of entering into the purpose of God, because Judah represents sovereign selection, and David belongs to Judah. You are now coming into your rights. Having gained a victory on the moral side, you come to the sovereign side, and what great things there are for us on the line of sovereignty! David enquires further, "Whither shall I go up?" That is the next thing. God answers, "Unto Hebron" -- which is in type the epistle to the Colossians. It is at this stage the safest place for the christian: the safest stopping place is Colossians.

Ques. What is in your mind in speaking of the safest stopping place?

J.T. Well, it is a question now of the danger of

identifying yourself with the world in its cultured feature, with philosophy, and the like. The christian is more enlightened than other people, but there are refined things in the world such as learning, and it may be thought that these may be conveniently and profitably taken on; that is the danger now. As seen in Colossians, Hebron is to dissipate that from our minds. Hebron was built before Zoan in Egypt. Zoan represents the wisdom of this world; it was where the wise ones of Egypt dwelt (Isaiah 19:11). The natural mind would say to the christian, Do you not think that more learning, social refinement, better music in the meeting; better understanding of things from the human point of view, would improve the position? But God would say to you, What I have in My mind is before all that, before Egypt, before Greece, indeed, before the world. Paul says, "we speak God's wisdom in a mystery ... which God had predetermined before the ages for our glory" (1 Corinthians 2:7). Colossians and Ephesians open it up. It is very important to see that what we are brought into does not admit at all of the very best things of the world, the result of education. Christianity does not admit of it at all, we have something which existed before that, before the world; the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the world for our glory. Greece and Rome afford much for man's glory, but not for our glory. God ordained wisdom before the world for our glory. It elevates us out of this world altogether. Colossians is a stopping place, as we go on to the full position ordained for us in the counsels of God. In the types you get it at the Jordan, they moved from Shittim and came to the Jordan and lodged there; that is, before they passed over they lodged. A lodging place is something temporary for a certain purpose.

Rem. A lodging place is not finality.

J.T. It is a spiritual thought; it is where certain

things are resolved. You go through certain things there, you see that the ark is to be two thousand cubits ahead, you learn the greatness of Christ as you never did in the wilderness. There was no requirement in the wilderness journey that the ark should be two thousand cubits ahead; that is typically Colossians, which epistle is to bring out among other things the greatness of the Person of Christ; in all things He has pre-eminence. You are to learn to learn that in the lodging place; to learn how to contemplate this great Person, and to judge yourself in relation to that; how small you are.

Rem. Hebron was where David first reigned.

J.T. That is what you get here, he reigned there seven years and six months. The six months, I suppose, was a bit of a test, and perhaps show that he had the full advantage of the education there. He reigned in Jerusalem thirty-three years. Hebron was an enlightening and wholesome stopping place. So that coming from Ziklag, Hebron was some three thousand feet up. I am alluding to that illustratively; it involved exercise to get there. Notice the recurrence of the words "go up" in 2 Samuel 2:1 - 3. Hebron is really on higher ground than Jerusalem. What an outlook you get in that elevation! -- spiritually the eternal thoughts of God. There is a great lesson in this, great instruction for the young people to see the great realm of spirituality they are brought into. In Hebron it is no question of the universities and their researches. Hebron is a question of God's eternal thoughts; that is, what has antedated the world. The characteristic men and women of faith and recipients of divine promises lie there -- in the cave of Machpelah -- awaiting "that world and the resurrection from among the dead".

Rem. What Hebron represents is set forth in Christ.

J.T. Yes; it is a question of the divine mind,

the wisdom prepared before the world for our glory -- we have it now by the Spirit.

Rem. It is in One in whom dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

J.T. That is what Colossians brings out. First you have the kingdom of the Son of the Father's love. It is very attractive -- God has "translated us into the kingdom of the Son of his love". One of the most beautiful expressions you can get, and in Him we have redemption, and so on. He created everything, He holds everything, He is the Head of the body, the assembly, and in Him all the Fulness was pleased to dwell, all the Fulness.

Rem. Very impressive and very blessed! For a believer to stop in some conditions is dangerous, but to stop at Hebron, how very excellent: to contemplate Christ, meditate upon Him, and then to have the wisdom you speak of in our souls!

Ques. Would the effect of that be that He would be expressed in His people?

J.T. Well, that is the next thing. He is Head of the body in Colossians, not because He has gone to the right hand of God, but because of who He is. It is a question of His Person. In chapter 3 He is said to be sitting at the right hand of God.

Ques. Is that why there comes a call for a transfer of affections in Colossians?

J.T. Yes; have your mind on things above. It is your mind there. That is, you have the greatest mental range possible -- things above, and not the things of the earth.

Rem. We come into the sphere where intelligence is to be developed. Having right instincts, we enter into divine things intelligently. Would "love in the Spirit" be the subjective state enabling us to understand the things above?

J.T. Yes. It is the only mention of the Spirit

in Colossians. That is the kind of love to have. 1 Corinthians begins with wisdom, connecting it with love: "Things which eye has not seen, and ear not heard, and which have not come into man's heart, which God has prepared for them that love him" (1 Corinthians 2:9). You learn all these things in Hebron, that is in Colossians; and so in chapter 2 we are enjoined in regard to "philosophy and vain deceit". We do not need these things, the apostle says. It is not so much a question of exposing them, but that we do not need them, for we have everything in Christ -- "in him dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily" (Colossians 2:9).

Rem. "And ye are complete in him".

J.T. Just so, there is no room for anything else.

Ques. I was wondering whether love as you have spoken of it would fit in with the Lord's supper?

J.T. Well, what has been before us generally comes in properly after the Supper is partaken of. Three kinds of love come before us as in assembly. Firstly, the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge. Secondly, the covenant-love of God, which comes in as the cup is partaken of; it is the perfect love that casts out fear in our souls. Thirdly there is the love that the Father has for the Son, that is the most exalted kind of love. As the Lord Jesus prayed, "that the love with which thou hast loved me may be in them and I in them" (John 17:26). You can see that that comes into the assembly in its proper heavenly setting, it is a question of the Father's love for the Son and our having the same kind of love -- that we can love the Son as the Father loves the Son.

Rem. Does what you are now saying lead on from what you indicated at the beginning of these readings, in Hannah and Samuel -- the question of priesthood, Romans-wise, then in David the praise line?

J.T. Yes; for the latter we go on to chapter 6; here you have priesthood with a linen ephod as has

already been called attention to. We are on a very high level now, because we are at Jerusalem in chapter 6. Zion is taken in chapter 5, and David would have the ark in its own place; that is chapter 6. Typically, it is Ephesians. The ark did not reach its own position until Zion was taken, because Hebron would not do for it; it is Jerusalem that is required, the city of the great king, and therefore the passage read is applicable now. The scripture says that "David danced before Jehovah with all his might; and David was girded with a linen ephod. And David and all the house of Israel brought up the ark of Jehovah with shouting, and with the sound of the trumpet". I think we have priesthood here in a remarkable way; the linen has its place.

Ques. Would Psalm 132 come in here -- the ark in its right place?

J.T. That is what I was thinking; the Psalms greatly augment what we are speaking of. Of course the subject is immense, you could not compass it in a few readings, but that psalm fits in exactly here. We get there an insight into David's private feelings -- "I will not give sleep to mine eyes, slumber to mine eyelids, Until I find out a place for Jehovah, habitations for the Mighty One of Jacob" (Psalm 132:4, 5). What a proposal that is! And then he goes on to say, "Behold, we heard of it at Ephratah, we found it in the fields of the wood". That is no doubt the ark in the house of Abinadab on the hill. That was not a suitable place for it, and so we get in that psalm David's exercise; perhaps as quite a young man. That was really the thought that governed his whole life, the idea of the house, which began with Jacob: "habitations for the Mighty One of Jacob" -- not Abraham, but Jacob, because the house of God is in connection with Jacob. Then David goes on to ask that God's priests should be clothed in righteousness. He had the great thought

that priesthood was necessary, and not only an official priesthood, but priests marked by moral qualities, garments of righteousness. Then, "and let thy saints shout for joy" -- a great consummation of all his exercises. God answers him saying, "Jehovah hath chosen Zion". David recognises the divine need and selection, and God takes the matter up. He says, I will see to all that, that they will be clothed in righteousness, clothed in salvation. That is, they will be entirely free from this world. So that the Psalms fit in here. The fifth book has a great place in relation to the divine dwelling-place and service. The whole book of Psalms was made in five parts and the last book is the great culmination.

PRIESTHOOD IN THE BOOKS OF SAMUEL (4)

2 Samuel 2:1; 2 Samuel 5:17 - 25; 2 Samuel 6:14, 15; 2 Samuel 7:12 - 18

J.T. The subject of priesthood is in mind in reading these scriptures. We may look at it elsewhere where it is presented formally, but the instruction is often more effective as presented informally, and so in these incidents; for God teaches us in relation to the necessities of our souls. The teaching goes on, and we take it up as in our ordinary circumstances; the light of God reaching us there. His work in us occasions needs, so that instinctively we turn to Him. In addition we find that whilst He meets us according to our way of approach, for we are told in Romans, we know not how to pray as we ought; whilst He meets us thus, He gives us to understand that He has requirements. The exigencies of His house and surroundings, He being who He is, require that He should be approached intelligently and according to His requirements.

In the history of David as rejected we get him visiting the house of God in his need. The Lord Himself refers to David as entering the house of God in the early days of his rejection "in the section of Abiathar the high priest" (Mark 2:26), and we find David praying to God as to certain needs. Then the high priest appears, that is, he whom the Lord calls high priest, Abiathar; he arrives as having the ephod. David refers to this. You find the ephod with David more than with any other after its introduction in Exodus. I believe he appears in this respect as an example to young believers, as well as to old ones, showing how we come to the thought of priesthood by way of our needs. David knows where to stop, it is said his prayers are ended; he is intelligent enough to know that under certain circumstances prayers do end.

What has been said refers mainly to the first book of Samuel, but I think we might look at the subject in the second book as leading up to the assembly. David is seen in the house of God in the last scripture in a sitting attitude. It would mean that he has advanced beyond priesthood, though in a typical sense understanding it. There is what lies beyond it, for a sitting attitude is not properly a priestly attitude, it is rather the idea of coming into full liberty in sonship. So the first inquiry in chapter 2 is, "Shall I go up?" He inquired of Jehovah, "Shall I go up into one of the cities of Judah?" The previous inquiry was in relation to the disaster at Ziklag; introducing what Ziklag represents -- the recovery of things, whether for God, or in the believer's history, as in his own case. We have an order of things at Ziklag corresponding with the epistle to Romans; and then Hebron corresponding with Colossians; and Jerusalem with Ephesians. These are the stages, and in each of these epistles -- Romans, Colossians, and Ephesians -- we have prayer introduced in a most significant way. We have instruction in Romans; we are told that we do not know how to pray as we ought, but the Spirit joins Himself to our weakness. Thus in our exercises in that way the Spirit comes in and helps us in our souls. Besides that, there is the example of the Lord in teaching us to pray.

Ques. How do you fit in the first scripture, 2 Samuel, 2:1?

J.T. The believer is taught in Romans, and the idea of ascension arises in his mind. "Shall I go up?" -- not to any elevation, but to the one that the counsels of God point to, that is Judah.

E.E.B. There is a peculiar variety of inquiry, he seeks direction and gets it a number of times. Then in chapter 5 he is to sit still until he hears the sound of the marching in the tops of the mulberry-trees

Is all this in view of the time of prayer being over?

J.T. The ending of his prayers is alluded to at the close of the second book of Psalms; that is when he prays for Solomon. Solomon on the throne is the end; faith is assured now of everything. The application to us would be that we are to have intelligence as to when prayer may give place to something else, when the sense of need ceases. It is a question of spiritual understanding here. In the first set of prayers in chapter 2 there are two inquiries, and then in chapter 5 there are also two. He has in mind first of all, "Shall I go up into one of the cities of Judah?" Now, that is I think where the purpose of God comes in; whether in our prayers we are thinking of God's thoughts as well as our own needs. Judah has a great place in God's thoughts. From the outset Judah had a great place among the tribes, and indeed represents the sovereign selection of God. "The sceptre will not depart from Judah, Nor the lawgiver from between his feet, Until Shiloh come, And to him will be the obedience of peoples" (Genesis 49:10). David would understand that, he was himself, at least in type, Shiloh; and so with every believer; you begin to find that you have a place in the counsels of God and your prayers move on that line. So we find earlier in David's history, when in the cave, the prophet Gad says, "go into the land of Judah" (1 Samuel 22:5). Judah would signify the sovereign selection of God, and that affords instruction for the believer. He finds that he has part in the counsels of God, and his prayers must move in that direction. The next thing here is, Which city? The answer is, Hebron, which would be further a question of counsel, because Hebron was before the world in principle. That is a very great thought: one is guided in regard of one's need in that direction.

A.M. Is your thought that this would suggest our going up to where there is no need?

J.T. That is what is in mind. David I think represents that side, leading on to the realm of sonship. He alludes, I believe, as a type for us in that respect, to priesthood as it comes into our souls through our necessities. The Spirit joins Himself to our weakness -- that is one thing, but then He makes intercession for us -- that is another thing. Moreover He cries, "Abba, Father" in our hearts, and we say "Lord Jesus" by Him. It is the subjective teaching that we get, and the Lord teaches us in the gospels how to go to God, but the Spirit is in us.

Ques. Is the force of that in Psalm 72:20 -- "The prayers of David the son of Jesse are ended"?

J.T. That is, the David of history, so to speak, is merging in his son, in Solomon. It is a principle; let us get the principle in our souls, that there is such a thing as that. It is not easy to fit it in, but it is a landmark to him who reaches it.

J.F.P. Would the sweet psalmist of Israel link with the other side?

J.T. There is no ending of that; the praises go on eternally. In praying, it says, Paul and Silas "were praising God with singing" (Acts 16:25) -- they were hymning to God. That is, prayer ended, giving place to a greater thought.

W.H.L. When Solomon ended praying, the glory of the Lord filled the house, (2 Chronicles 7:1).

J.T. That helps, the priests were not able to enter; it is the same thought extended, that there is a point where priestly service ends. So with the glory filling the tabernacle, Moses could not enter; not that he was formally prohibited, but he could not.

G.C.S. Would David taking his two wives to Hebron be suggestive of Christ as the Head of the assembly?

J.T. "So David went up thither, and his two wives

also, Ahinoam the Jizreelitess, and Abigail the wife of Nabal the Carmelite". Perhaps that is right. It is in Jerusalem that you get typically the full thought of headship. Hebron would be the experience of another world; Galatians teaches us as to that. We read there: "our Lord Jesus Christ, who gave himself for our sins, so that he should deliver us out of the present evil world, according to the will of our God and Father; to whom be glory to the ages of ages" (Galatians 1:3 - 5). This prepares us for Hebron, which is typically Colossians, where we learn the ways of another world.

Ques. Would the epistle to the Philippians help us in showing how Paul had before him the arriving at this other world you speak of, and how small his needs were?

J.T. Yes, I think it is a great point to get into the mind as a principle that there is another world. If I get principles in my soul, then I will reach them in due course. Another world means the reversal of this world; the principles of that world are different.

A.M. Does Hebron suggest that?

J.T. Yes, that is how Scripture presents it. It was built seven years before Zoan in Egypt.

A.M. Does that correspond with spiritual increase in Colossians?

J.T. I think so. Ziklag, Hebron, and Jerusalem are the three points. Ziklag is, so to say, the ground level and the adjustment of everything here; that is Romans: the beginning of everything here. Then Hebron, then Jerusalem. You can see how priesthood is needed for these things, so the first two inquiries settle these points as to movement, and the next inquiry is as to conflict. I shall have conflict if I move in this direction and priesthood attaches to the military side of the position, because prayer is priestly.

Ques. Would this teach us to be specific in our

prayers and have a definite object in view and then wait for the thing to be realised? Do you think we fail to wait for the positive movement?

J.T. One goes over the prayers of David and they are formally mentioned as having come to an end. How brief they are! How specific they are!

Rem. It is recorded of the Lord in Luke that He rose up from His prayer. He came to the end of that particular exercise and finished.

J.T. You like to hear a brother finish; that he has something in his mind, it is not a formal prayer. In the prayer meeting it would be a collective matter relative to the testimony; he has something and he speaks of it to the Lord and finishes. Then you get the amens, because you finish at the right time. Sometimes I am afraid the amens mean, I am glad he has finished! When the brother reaches a definite end, he presents it to the Lord, and he has finished. That makes way for a goodly number to take part.

Rem. It would help us as to seeing the answer come in. We pray sometimes for years about a thing such as hiving off, whereas there comes a time when we should be up and doing.

J.T. Paul said he besought the Lord thrice: he knew when to stop. He obtained the Lord's mind and then proceeded gladly in his path of service.

G.J.E. Ziklag was the territory David got from Achish, but it had to be burnt to the ground.

J.T. A disaster in such circumstances is an important thing in our education. Many, I believe, make poor priests because they have never experienced serious reverses. This is one of the most crucial periods in David's life. I do not think that it is said anywhere else that he was threatened with stoning. He was a most lovable man, but here he is regarded as responsible for a disaster that affected others as well as himself, and hence it was a most

crucial hour, but he encouraged himself in the Lord his God. He knew God. Then he has recourse to Abiathar and the ephod. It is a most urgent matter; this disaster has come from the hand of God; but he knew God. The first book as to David ends with that terrible disaster and the recovery from it, and prayer is peculiarly seen. The ephod is there, that is, it is prayer as you would learn it from Christ. The ephod belongs to the high priest. I have to understand that God has His own requirements. If the matter is urgent, as it was at Ziklag, the more the need for me to comply with the divine requirements. When we come to 2 Samuel the state at Ziklag is carried forward; and what a thoroughly unselfish man David was! We are enjoined to love our enemies, to do good to them that hate us, and pray for them that persecute us, and that is what David did. That is the kind of man that can go up. Psalm 15 and other scriptures indicate what kind of man goes up. God is concerned as to that.

E.H.F. Was he not more thoroughly in the kingdom at this time and nearer the throne than he anticipated? As you have said, he showed it in his unselfish attitude to his enemies.

J.T. Think of the statute that he makes for those that remain behind with the stuff; they are to share equally with the others. It is the equity of the king and the beautiful spirit that he manifested to all. He is not revengeful, and he expresses his feelings poetically in utter unselfishness. That is the kind of man that God would have with Him in His holy hill; we must have clean hands. If I have anything against my brother, God does not welcome me up there.

Rem. Chapter 2 of the second book starts with "after this;" after what you have been referring to you could not put this before that.

J.T. It is in beautiful order here. You are putting

your matter into God's hands and you have to be careful, for God may say you cannot go up.

F.C.D. Does the thought of priesthood in what you are saying help us in regard to spiritual sensitiveness? I was thinking of David in relation to Saul and Jonathan.

J.T. That is right. He did not need to go that far; he seems to be extravagant in the way he speaks in chapter 1. But it is the unselfish sentiment that we get in Romans 12, and God immediately says, "Go up".

Rem. The same spirit as was displayed by the Lord on the cross.

J.T. There you see it in its fulness, and in Stephen too: "Lord, lay not this sin to their charge" (Acts 7:60). That is the man to go up. It is well to cultivate these things. If we have to come to dissolution, as we may, it helps us all to be ready to go up.

Ques. How would 1 Timothy 2:8 fit in -- "I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands"?

J.T. "Without wrath or reasoning". If wrath marks you, you are exposing yourself in your prayers; your hands are not clean. Our hands may not be pious hands as we lift them up. "Had I regarded iniquity in my heart, the Lord would not hear me" (Psalm 66:18). Then if I ask to go up, I am throwing myself on God. Am I suitable up there? God says here immediately, "Go up", and David says, "Whither shall I go up?" God is thinking of His own world, His own thoughts, while He is answering our prayers.

Rem. These exercises connected with Ziklag, Hebron, and Jerusalem would go on with us.

J.T. Ziklag is what I am here in my town or village, that is the idea. The same person that the people used to know in earlier days, but now I am a different man. Instead of taking my neighbour by

the throat, I am forgiving. Where I used to be unlovely, I am now like God, like Christ.

W.K.S. Would the thought of leadership come into this? In the third verse we read, "and his men that were with him did David bring up".

J.T. I think they were fit to go. These men that were with David were to go up; every man with his household. I suppose they are all like himself; they had been in the cave with him, and Ziklag is the end of that education. There were men of Belial in the camp with him, but David says that those who remain behind with the stuff must share with those who go up to the battle. That remains as a monument to what David was at Ziklag, and the men were in keeping with that. You get "men" referred to in the Lord's prayer in John 17.

To come to chapter 5, in nothing do we need to pray more urgently than in conflict, which is the next thing. The first answer Jehovah gives David here is "Go up; for I will certainly give the Philistines into thy hand". It says they spread themselves -- a Philistine feature -- to make a show; it is an extended matter. The conflict is now more and more of that character. It spreads abroad, big men are affected; it is thus all the more essential that we should bring God into it. Then the next feature is the sign of the sound of marching; that is, it is to be military according to God, for "the Lord is a man of war" (Exodus 15:3), and the battle is to be begun in military order.

Ques. Does that raise the question of spiritual discernment?

J.T. It requires great skill, especially if it is an extended matter.

Ques. The ordinary man would not hear this, would he?

J.T. No, I think it is discernment. Joshua thought he heard the noise of war, but it was not that, it

was the voice of mirth; his ear was not trained. It is important to realise that if there is a conflict, it is not a matter of personal feelings, but the Lord is leading in it. "Thou shalt not go up; turn round behind them and come upon them opposite the mulberry-trees. And it shall be, when thou hearest a sound of marching in the tops of the mulberry-trees, that then thou shalt bestir thyself". God has joined the battle Himself.

H.J.N. Would it be a movement amongst the saints?

J.T. There are those who shirk war; we deplore it in a human way rightly, but there is a time when it is incumbent on us. God is moving in this military way, and I am to go behind the enemy. God is moving in military order: it does not say 'going', but "marching;" it is a military word. We are to come into that in spiritual skill, to know how to fall into line; not to want to be in the van; let God be in the van.

E.E.B. How does prayer come in in relation to this?

J.T. How urgent it is that we should be in power in relation to this; let God take the lead. It is for the brethren to see that you are not raising an issue on your own account. The flesh is very subtle, and one may seek prominence, and a badly-picked place of conflict may mean loss for the saints, as in the battle against Absalom. It was in a wood, a most unlikely battlefield; but here it is marching in the tops of the mulberry-trees. The answer implies that David had to listen for that: "when thou hearest a sound of marching". You can understand the alertness with which David would listen; then he is to join in -- "thou shalt bestir thyself".

Ques. What is this conflict the outcome of?

J.T. It was when "the Philistines heard that they had anointed David;" it is Christ in principle

amongst the saints; something God is putting forward in the saints, of the anointing. There is dignity attached to the anointing; God is committing Himself to it. The Philistines will always attack a movement of God in the anointing; that is the occasion of it. David is humble in the matter; he is a great warrior, having no equal in his day; but then God is a greater warrior: "the Lord is a man of war". In Joshua 5 the captain of Jehovah's host appears and we have to pay attention to that. So the war-horse (Proverbs 30:31, see note d) represents, I think, the christian who is not afraid of war if it is necessary. "He smelleth the battle afar off, the thunder of the captains, and the shouting" (Job 39:25).

Rem. This is after David had gone up to Jerusalem.

J.T. Yes, he has got to the capital now, that is where the conflict really is, Ephesians in principle.

Ques. Would this be in line with Deborah's song -- "From heaven was the fight" (Judges 5:20)?

J.T. A very good scripture; it would fit in with this.

Ques. Would Epaphras be one who appears in this spirit in Colossians -- "always combating earnestly for you in prayers" (Colossians 4:12)?

J.T. That is the same kind of thing. Epaphras probably knew the state at Colosse; Paul had not been there, but Epaphras had. It was conflict. So the verses in 2 Samuel 6 show the progress that David was making; he was a real priest. "David danced before Jehovah with all his might; and David was girded with a linen ephod". A linen ephod is the priestly garb; it is priesthood as needed here; he knows what is needed in these circumstances. He is the king with everything under his hand, and as such, he might go to excess. The linen means that one is sober in what one is doing. Dancing with all his might is not going to excess,

it was before the ark; David is sober. The moment required such an action, it is a very fine tribute to the king's worshipful feelings as before Jehovah.

Rem. He would be balanced.

J.T. That is it. His wife thought he was going to excess, but that only exposed her. Jerusalem is the final thought; you get the head of the giant there. The Lord Jesus ascended far above all heavens leading captivity captive. Jerusalem represents all that; the light and power of God.

Rem. The linen ephod seems to be important.

J.T. It is exceptional; you do not get it with Aaron or any of the priests before Samuel. It is a tribute to David's exercises that he wore one here; an example to believers, how we get on. It is the priestly garment par excellence, but David has a linen one. He is a man who has everything under his hand, and if I have that, then I need balance so that I do not go to excess. That is the point here, the circumstances require this.

Rem. Samuel was clothed with one. We need it whether we are old or young.

J.T. As far as I know, after Leviticus, the ephod is found almost exclusively in 1 and 2 Samuel, and I think it is to bring out how priesthood develops informally in the christian. The priests Saul slew "wore the linen ephod". This is evidently said to amplify Saul's guilt.

Now our final scripture is a sort of climax to the subject. David is a priest, but now he goes beyond that. The king went in and sat before Jehovah. That means that the word in the preceding verses as to sonship had come home to him, and he is moving in the light of it.

Ques. Are we coming more to the family side?

J.T. It is the eternal side, prayer being ended and priesthood, too. This is another principle that brethren should specially note. Although I may not

reach it while down here, there is such a thing as this, that I go in and sit. A priest stands; the idea in priesthood is service, whereas a son is set in the presence of God without any sense of bondage. Perfect love casts out fear; the relationship I am brought into is great enough for this.

Ques. Do you connect this with assembly privilege?

J.T. It is the end in view in the service. Priesthood is because of conditions in me and outside, which will not exist eternally, but service will go on in the liberty of sonship. If you apply it now, it takes form in the assembly where there is power for it.

Ques. Do we get the objective and subjective in this verse? "And king David went in and sat before Jehovah, and said, Who am I, Lord Jehovah, and what is my house, that thou hast brought me hitherto"?

J.T. He goes on further and speaks of "thy servant's house for a great while to come". That is what he has in mind, and that is what we come to in the assembly, "a great while to come". There is a time coming when there will be nothing in this respect but sonship; it is a great thing to have that in mind. God has spoken about that and what we have in the assembly reaches on to it.

J.McM. When he says, "is this the manner of man?" does that mean that David has fully come to it himself?

J.T. I think so; Nathan had given him the light according to the earlier verses and now he moves in it. He might have sat at home and said, I will wait for Solomon, but he gets light and moves in it. That is what we should do.

Rem. Sit together in the heavenly places?

J.T. Quite so, that is the thing. Ephesians contemplates what alludes to us; raised up together and made to sit together. It is in the liberty of sonship.

PRIESTHOOD IN 1 PETER AND EXODUS

1 Peter. 2:5; Exodus 4:22, 23; Exodus 28:1 - 4, 40 - 43

J.T. It will be observed in Exodus that the primary and consequently the final thought of God in service is in sonship -- "Let my son go, that he may serve me". So that priesthood is a provision only, not an abiding or eternal thought -- a provision in view of conditions here in the world, extending on to the millennium, as we see in Ezekiel. Sonship is the primary and abiding thought of God, and so when He reaches Sinai with the wilderness journey in view, this thought of serving as priests comes into mind with many other things. It says, "serve me as priests" -- that is, in the office of priesthood. The phrase expressed is found six times or more in Exodus 28 and 29, which treat of this subject -- "they may serve me as priests", not sons. It does not say "sons", but "as priests", meaning that the exigencies of the wilderness were in view, as also evil in the people of God themselves, brought out in the contrariety of the wilderness. So the idea of priests instead of sonship is stressed. That would preclude any having part in a fleshly way, taking licence, assuming sonship without priestly state; hence God stresses throughout these chapters "that they may serve me as priests".

The time would come, in Solomon's day, when the priests were unable to serve because of the glory, meaning that there is no need of this provisional requirement; but that in the eternal state of things, they may serve as sons. Another thing to be remarked is that the idea of priesthood was recognised in Israel before the formal appointment of Aaron and his sons, without any reference to what qualities they had or ability to serve. That is alluded to in chapter 19, and they are enjoined to certain

action, and not only so, but in that chapter God proposed that the whole nation should be priests; that the thought should spread to the saints universally, and mark them. Then another thing that comes out is that the office of priest is occupied, in chapter 24, by youths who offered up burnt-offerings and peace-offerings, when the covenant was inaugurated. So we have a group of facts in Exodus that are intended to help us greatly as christians. For the meaning of all we find there has its application to ourselves, the anti-type. These things were written for us, and they apply to us. When Peter says, as he does, "a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God by Jesus Christ", he alludes to us in all these phases, particularly of course in chapters 28 and 29 of Exodus. Another thing is that Romans develops priesthood informally, but as a great feature of the truth of the gospel, and in doing so brings in the idea of bondmanship -- bondmanship to God -- which also is essential to priesthood, corresponding with what we get in Exodus 21, the idea of bondmanship introduced as underlying all service. That is, the bondmanship which love accepts and prefers, as it were, serving in love the master and wife and children.

E.B.McC. Is your thought that priesthood will not go on in the eternal state, that it is sons there entirely?

J.T. The primary thought is sonship. Sonship manifestly is introduced in Exodus -- "Let my son go, that he may serve me". So that the priestly thought is provisional, to meet conditions in which the service should be carried on in the wilderness, and in the land, too, that is, the land as entered now and also in millennial conditions. I suppose it is a question first of obedience, bondmanship, and having our fruit unto holiness; that is what is meant, the Spirit being the power according to Romans 8

to maintain us in these qualities in intelligence; for the priesthood was to be marked by intelligence -- "the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and at his mouth they seek the law" (Malachi 2:7).

J.C.S. Is sonship the basis of priesthood?

J.T. That is the way Scripture presents it. Hebrews works it out in that way. The Son is Priest.

J.C.S. It has taken the form of priesthood because of the existence of unholy conditions here?

J.T. Yes, having in view holy conditions for God's service, in spite of unholiness around; in spite of will in us, and all that we are conscious of in the flesh. When out of the flesh and out of fleshly conditions, there will be no need for that; there will be nothing to restrain at all.

A.W. Service will continue through eternity.

J.T. Quite so, but the primary thought is sonship -- "Let my son go", so that in Ephesians we are said to be predestinated unto sonship by Jesus Christ to God Himself.

A.W. Then the priestly idea will cease?

J.T. It is just an added thought to enable the service to go on in spite of adverse conditions; the priest is the guarantee for that, that is, the priestly state. Even if it be a question of recovery in an erring saint, that is the sort of thing that is needed, "ye who are spiritual restore such a one" (Galatians 6:1). Paul treats of it under a different name, but it is the same thing; it is a question of spirituality.

A.W. It is a relative idea as over against unspirituality. What do you set over against priesthood, it being a relative thought?

J.T. Spiritual is a relative thought over against what is unspiritual; spirituality will remain, but it has a relative bearing here. Priesthood is over against unrighteousness, unholiness, and ignorance. The priest is to be clothed with righteousness, and

have compassion on the ignorant and erring. Intelligence also goes with priesthood.

S.H.B. What is spontaneous will abide and go on.

J.T. Love springing out of known relationship with God, the relationship into which we are brought, answering to His counsel; sonship is in His mind. One of the divine Persons took on sonship, so that the thought should be presented, and that we should be brought into it.

S.H.B. With priesthood is there a measure of responsibility?

J.T. Clearly. They were to abide in the sanctuary, (Leviticus 8), seven days; meaning the whole period of testimony here, to "keep the charge of the Lord". Peter confines the thought to the offering of "spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God by Jesus Christ", but John in Revelation 1:6 says that Christ has "made us a kingdom, priests to his God". We shall be priests in the millennium, according to Revelation 20:6, but priests "of God", not 'to God'.

C.A.I. Does priesthood apply as long as recovery from the evil that has come in is in view -- the resolution of the moral question?

J.T. That is how it stands in Scripture. As I was remarking, God uses the formula "that they may serve me as priests", some six times in these chapters. It is not as sons, although that is God's thought underlying priesthood, but He says, "as priests". It is because of the conditions we have to contend with, lest we may forget in our service the fleshly elements we have to encounter.

J.C. Would priesthood emphasise the fact that God is light, whereas sonship emphasises the holy nature of God?

J.T. Yes; what He is as against evil is seen in

priesthood. Sonship involves the relationship of Father into which He has come. We are to be sons of God, as well as sons of the Father, but the relationship and affections are expressed in the term "Father;" a term intelligible to every parent and well known from Adam onward. God is pleased to come into that relationship so as to effect His counsels. Man, in Christ, is now before Him capable of yielding fully the affections which He sought. He found His delight in Christ, and we, as sons, come into this.

E.W.C. Does it involve that the sphere of relationship is separated from the sphere of service?

J.T. Well, the Son serves. It is a family thought. The Lord says, "my Father and your Father" -- that is a family thought, and the service enters into that, but then there is added to that, "my God and your God", and service enters into that, too. The family side is more intelligible to us; it is easier to enter into, but the great end that God has in mind is God Himself. He is to be served by sons.

Ques. Does priesthood imply distance, but sonship the nearer circle?

J.T. Priesthood is an office. It is like a garment which a son wears in a certain setting; it is the token of his position in office. The word 'office' will be hardly in force at all in eternal relations, but it is in force now. Hence the great variety seen in the habiliments of the high priest and the sons of the high priest. These all refer to characteristics put on in the power of the Spirit, bearing on adverse conditions. All these habiliments allude to that; expressive of love, in care and vigilance. Every item of the habiliments has some meaning; it is put on, it is a feature put on in view of conditions, as certain animals have furs or growths to meet certain conditions which would not exist if the conditions did not exist.

J.C.S. If I understand you aright, the idea of priestly service runs along with the covenant and the family idea.

J.T. The idea of service runs along, but priesthood is more properly connected with the covenant, I think. While we are in the flesh we need the priestly thought, and even in the millennium, although Satan is bound, and death annulled in the main, yet the priesthood runs on -- the need for it is there.

J.C.S. The covenant and the family idea run on concurrently now.

J.T. Yes. If our service is to come up to the thought of God it must include both the covenant thought and the family thought, but the covenant is on lower ground.

C.F.I. For us to approach the thought of priesthood we must be conscious of sonship?

J.T. That is the idea. There can be no service acceptable to God save in sonship, its spring is there. You will find in the most spiritual of our hymns, that is how it stands; the relation in which we are set with God is the basic thought of all.

C.H.H. Would sonship imply the dignity in which priesthood is taken up?

J.T. Sonship gives it the dignity, but priesthood protects us. As I was saying, if you take the land animals or the fowls as they were created, I suppose just what they were physically was indicated by their growth, their forms and characteristics. Then as they spread abroad on the earth they had to do with the elements; if they went north, then in view of cold, the growth would be to meet it. I am speaking only illustratively. What we get in priesthood is not of course what develops in us naturally, but only in the sense of spiritual development, but God orders it -- it is imperative, it must be so.

P.L. His priests are clothed with salvation, is that the idea?

J.T. Just so, that is one most important feature. It means that I am saved characteristically from the influences of the world. And the priests are to be clothed with righteousness, too. That was David's desire in view of the divine dwelling -- that the priests of God should be clothed with righteousness. God acknowledges that and says, "clothed with salvation" too. Righteousness is one thought, and salvation another. Both are represented in the priests' clothes. You could hardly conceive of anything more important, if we are to take part the service of God, than that we are not only accounted righteous by the death of Christ, but we are to be practically righteous also, otherwise we can have no part in the service. For we must serve as priests, reminding us that we are not only sons through believing the gospel, but the priestly state must be there.

P.L. So that when the writer of Hebrews is clothing our Aaron, so to speak, in the light of the scripture in Exodus, he adds, He also loved righteousness and hated lawlessness.

J.C.S. Is the necessity for holiness borne out by the fact that the sphere of service was the sanctuary or the holy place?

J.T. The word "sanctuary" meant that it was a holy enclosure. It is the enclosure in which the service is carried on, and the priesthood corresponds to it as having these clothes. I think if the brethren would notice the formula, "serve me as priests" over against serving as sons, we would see what is meant. There is not a word about sonship in the two chapters that speak of priesthood in Exodus, whereas the introductory thought of service is in the son.

E.B.McC. The thought in Hebrews, too, is that

priesthood is for the ignorant and those out of the way, and beset with infirmities.

J.T. That is one thing, the ignorant and erring; and the law of divine requirements governing the service and governing the whole economy is to be kept by the priests. They are custodians of the law. So that in Leviticus, where we have the subject taken up in actual application, we have seven chapters devoted to the law, the law governing the offerings, as Peter says, "spiritual sacrifices", before we have the installation of the priests. That is, they are seen as exercising their office as each man brought his offering, and then they are installed in chapter 8 -- "Aaron and his sons".

Ques. "For such a high priest became us" (Hebrews 7:26). Would that have any bearing?

J.T. Well, it has, only it is not in evidence in our chapters. The basis of that remark is "us", that is, the greatness of the persons to be represented in the priest. It is not 'became God' there. In Hebrews 2:10 it is that it became God. "It became him ... in bringing many sons to glory, to make perfect the leader of their salvation through sufferings". That became God. In chapter 7 it is "such a high priest became us", because of the greatness of the saints in view of the heavenly calling. We need such a high priest as that, and then it says, "holy, harmless, undefiled, separated from sinners, and become higher than the heavens". Wonderful that we need such an One! It lifts us from all the littleness of what we are in the flesh to "holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling".

E.B.McC. Would the youths in Exodus 24 who offered, have on something akin to these garments? They would be morally qualified before Moses could send them to offer.

J.T. That has to be assumed. They are not said to be priests, although serving as priests; but when

we come to chapter 28 God is asserting what is required by Him: "that they may serve me as priests". As has been remarked, sonship is the basis of priesthood, and that shows the terrible character of the uprising in christendom, in men who are not converted at all assuming to be priests. The whole clerical system you may say is responsible and is involved in that; the idea of priesthood is assumed aside from sonship.

P.L. Is that why the Lord as the "Son of God" joins issue with Thyatira?

J.T. Just so. That is where you see the idea of priesthood especially set up in man in the flesh. I suppose you see it in the Romish system more fully than anywhere else; although Anglicans also use the term, and the idea attaches to everyone in the clerical office. It makes the assumption to be priests aside from being sons a serious matter.

J.C. Would you say a little in connection with Nadab and Abihu, and strange fire?

J.T. That shows that even the real priesthood may fail and has failed, but the more serious thing is in Numbers 16, where the Levites assumed to be priests, because they were Levites; not sons of Aaron. Meaning that persons who have gift and who are serving in the gospel and the like are assuming to be priests. That is pretty much what the clerical system means. It does not attach to the laity, who are shut out from the priesthood in the general thought.

J.C.S. Do you not think there is a danger of the saints being invaded by that idea, that everyone feels he has a right to say something?

J.T. Yes. In the assembly we must speak as priests, that is, as in the service of God. That means we are spiritual, and not only so, but intelligent and holy in our thoughts, practically righteous publicly. If I am not clothed with righteousness, I have no

right to speak nor to be in the fellowship, and if I am not able to judge the world and refuse it, I am not fit for the service of God. Added to that is the idea of holiness.

J.C.S. These are the conditions that are necessary for ascending to the hill of the Lord.

A.W. According to Exodus the priests had to be suitably dressed for going into the presence of Jehovah.

J.T. That is exactly what we are trying to stress. It is "serve me as priests", not as sons. God will not say that by-and-by when there is no evil around us, but now in the presence of evil He is speaking; at Sinai in the wilderness, where the evil is, He is taking account of conditions, so He stresses priesthood.

J.C.S. It is a very great triumph morally that God has a company of priests in the world.

J.T. It is a wonderful thing that there are such garments as priests' clothes, and it is remarkable that in remnant times -- and ours are remnant times -- Nehemiah makes so much of priests' garments. Coming back from Babylon we are apt to carry Babylonish garments with us, hence the need of priestly garments to replace them.

C.H.H. The high priest's garments were for glory and ornament. All the moral features in the saints would be anticipated in that way.

J.T. Well, quite so. The priestly system seen typically in our chapter of course includes Christ as now in heaven. The principal habiliments refer to the high priest; what Christ wears -- the ephod, the breast-plate, the chequered vest, the cloak, and the turban, and all that. All this refers to the high priest only; so we have to grasp the thought of Christ first, in order to see what is meant. Then in verse 40 to the end, we have the application to all of us, the sons of Aaron, but in both cases we are associated

with Him and He with us, and we have the formula, "they may serve me as priests". "That he may serve me" would refer to Christ. Christ takes up the service first as we see in the gospels, particularly in Luke, and then He is ascended into heaven in Acts and the saints are associated with Him. The coming down of the Spirit is the inauguration of the priestly family on earth, so that the service should go on.

P.L. The coming of the Spirit according to Luke is connected with clothing.

J.T. That is important -- "till ye be clothed with power from on high" (Luke 24:49) -- not 'heaven' it is moral dignity.

C.A.I. Would the idea be that the clothing is available thus?

J.T. It is, only that it includes your own exercises; that you have the clothing, and in order to see the moral side working out, bondmanship I think has to be noted in Exodus 21, and seen there typically in Christ. Romans works it out in every saint. We begin with the idea of yielding ourselves bondmen to God, and our members instruments of righteousness to God, and on that line we have our "fruit unto holiness, and the end eternal life".

Ques. Is service to mark the saints throughout eternity?

J.T. Clearly. God intends that. He says, "Let my son go, that he may serve me", and in Revelation we are told that "his servants shall serve him".

S.H.B. What a sense of dignity these garments give! The Lord would help us to touch the matters of every-day life on a higher level.

J.T. These garments are to be seen, they are practical righteousness and salvation, and then the helmet or turban, with the plate in it, "Holiness to the Lord", is to prevent natural ability, mental ability. In no way are we more exposed in the

allowance of our minds than in the holy things of God, treating them merely in a mental way.

J.C.S. You have specifically before you the assembly in function, so to speak.

J.T. Yes, the full thought of God is when we are together "in assembly". These holy garments are seen, from Christ down to ourselves, they are all there.

S.H.B. Would the thought of serving God refer to the whole of our time here, or only to such time as convened?

J.T. It is when we are convened we get the full thought; we are for God. Romans helps us -- we should "be to another", entirely abstracted that we might serve in newness of spirit. But our attitude is that of service all the time; service Godward and service manward. Priesthood is attached to both sides. We have the two thoughts in Peter's epistle. The first is a holy priesthood, that is the inward attitude or bearing of our service, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. Then the royal priesthood is mentioned later by Peter to show forth -- that is external -- the virtues of Christ "who has called you out of darkness to his wonderful light". So that priesthood is attached to both positions.

J.C.S. Do you think a priest in his service would resent any intrusion of nature, and his part would not only be intelligent, but there would be a spiritual flavour with it?

J.T. Quite so. Spiritual flavour is good. Intelligence, too, is a great part of priesthood. Of course we say a simple person, a young brother speaking simply is very good. You may have a young brother taking part for the first time, he may speak brokenly, but that would be like chapter 24 of Exodus, where the work is done without any reference to garments. God accepted that. It was

Moses' suggestion that the youths should offer and no doubt they did the best they could. The point is it was done, and done in youthfulness. We have all felt that a young brother standing up for the first time in fulness of affection imparts a certain flavour. But the next time he stands up you look for the garments, and they should appear, because after that chapter, God imposes what is required for His service in the tabernacle, and particularly here in these two chapters. He has great regard for what is suitable to Him. So that the next time I take part I should certainly have respect for the garments, and thus I am progressive, advancing in the thought of garments. Paul says, "I will sing with the spirit", that is, with feeling, and not merely because I want to say something my spirit has indited; "I will sing also with the understanding" -- that is the priestly garment.

Romans gives us the basic features of priesthood. It is well for young christians especially to study Romans. At the outset the Lord is declared to be the "Son of God in power, according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection of the dead" -- the Spirit of holiness. I believe that is introduced at the beginning of Romans to notify us that in receiving the gospel we receive it in that way. The element of everything is received in the gospel and has to be worked out in us; so when we come to chapter 5 we are seen as enriched. We have substance by the love of God being "shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit". Then in chapter 6 we begin to look towards the position "in Christ". We are to regard ourselves as "in Christ", and to regard ourselves as bondmen to God and our members as instruments of righteousness to God, and so have our fruit unto holiness. We must have holiness. Then in chapter 7 we are said to serve "in newness of spirit". In chapter 6 it is "newness

of life", and in chapter 7 it is newness of spirit. In chapter 12 we have the renewing of our mind -- newness of mind. In understanding these statements you get to see what God requires worked out in our beings. Then the Spirit in chapter 8 is the great power for it all; even as to prayer, we are told He makes intercession with groanings; He intercedes for the saints according to God. We get the sense in ourselves in speaking to God of what is in the groaning of the Spirit; and not only so, but we cry, "Abba, Father". According to Galatians, the Spirit cries, "Abba, Father" first, and we say it by the spirit of adoption; that is chapter 8 of Romans; so that the Holy Spirit leads us on in that way.

J.C.S. The features observed in Romans are the priestly tendencies that are to be developed in us.

J.T. That is right. They are woven into our very beings as the outcome of the gospel presented to us; Christ declared to be Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by resurrection of the dead.

P.L. Is that seen as the fruit of the gospel as presented in Luke -- you have a priestly company praising in the temple? They were the fruit of the presentation of what is developed in Romans in doctrine, but presented in Luke as praising God.

J.T. That is the end in view. They returned to Jerusalem with great joy -- they had substance. They are blessed -- the Lord blessed them. They "were continually in the temple, praising and blessing God". The epistle to the Romans should have produced in Rome, in the very capital of the empire, a priestly company -- that is what is in mind -- a priestly company in newness of life. First enrichment in chapter 5; newness of life and holiness in chapter 6; newness of spirit in chapter 7; the Spirit itself interceding with groanings which cannot be uttered; the spirit of adoption crying,

"Abba, Father;" the sons of God led by the Spirit of God in chapter 8; and then the renewing of the mind and knowing how to present a sacrifice -- your bodies -- in chapter 12. The sacrifice is to be "holy, acceptable to God, which is your intelligent service. And be not conformed to this world, but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind". All that was to be developed in the saints in Rome. Luke would confirm that; his gospel would confirm Paul's ministry. He continues the subject in his second treatise until he shows you the apostle Paul himself in Rome, the testimony is there, he is a prisoner, but still he is there. The Spirit presented in Romans 8 is the power for all the things we meet with. The chapter is wonderful from this point of view; it contemplates the end of the wilderness. Chapter 6 is the beginning of the journey, but chapter 8 contemplates we are in the plains of Moab, safely carried through, equal to the service of God -- sons -led by the Spirit, by the Spirit of adoption; crying, "Abba, Father;" God's Spirit witnessing with our spirit that we are children of God. Then the Spirit is interceding for us "with groanings which cannot be uttered. But he who searches the hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because he intercedes for saints according to God". Following on that we are seen victorious in the power of the Spirit.

J.C.S. The garments generally are ornamental, but what about the linen breeches, which were very plain? What do they represent?

J.T. They represent sobriety where the flesh is strongest, fleshly feelings -- they represent that side. We have the head taken account of, and the breast and the girdle of the loins, the linen breeches. Linen is the covering downwards. I believe the idea is of our being sober, balanced in the part we take in the things of God; we are not to be governed by natural

feelings in any way. Sobriety is the thought in linen, I think.

P.L. The spirit of the prophet is subject to the prophet.

J.T. Quite so. Paul says, I keep under my body, which would mean he never allowed it to govern him. Whether it be a sick body, or an athletic body -- whatever it be -- he never allowed it to control him; he was always in control of it. Self-control is the fruit of the Spirit.

J.C. Would the thought of consecration begin by our being bondmen to God as in Romans?

J.T. That is the way it would work out with any one of us. Take a young believer presenting his body; that means he has control of it, but it is not a dead body. In chapter 8 it says, the body is dead on account of sin, if Christ be in you, but the Spirit is life on account of righteousness. The Spirit is in the christian, and that is now the only power of life in him. Physical life is not in mind; it is the moral side. The body once actuated by sinful motions is dead, if Christ be in you, but the Spirit is life in view of righteousness; henceforth I am righteous practically. Chapters 9 - 11 are parenthetical, then in chapter 12 the christian path is resumed. There the believer is besought by the compassions of God to present his body a living sacrifice. That alludes to chapter 8, where the Spirit is owned: "a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your intelligent service".

E.B.McC. We need Colossians and Ephesians as well, to reach the last chapter of Luke -- in the temple praising God?

J.T. Quite so. There is the power from on high.

C.H.H. Are the garments progressive in our spiritual history, or are they characteristic?

J.T. The idea is progressive. It is to be noticed that John does not admit of any faith being valid

which is not progressive. If it is stationary, it has ceased to be faith characteristically. He tells us that the Lord took small cords and drove out from the temple the sheep and oxen; and that the disciples remembered that it is written, "The zeal of thy house devours me". They remembered that; they were not appalled at such drastic action as the Lord took. There are those who say that you are too severe, and are demanding too much; that you must be broad-minded and take in every christian, and that sort of thing; but that will not do. The disciples, when the Lord made the whip of small cords, did not make any objection to what He did, but remembered rather what the Scripture said about that very thing. They were with Him in what He did, which required faith. Then the Lord proceeded to speak about the temple of His body, that He should raise it up; and it says, His disciples remembered what He had said, after He was raised, and they believed the scripture and the words of Jesus. They carried the thoughts through. Their faith was progressive. That is what is so needed amongst us.

C.H.H. Absolute perfection is seen in the Lord and progression in the disciples. I was thinking of the voice from heaven saying, "Thou art my beloved Son".

J.T. God begins with that, the highest thought at the Jordan, and everything that follows is to lead us up to that. The company at the end of Luke is the great result: "praising and blessing God" in the temple. They are amenable to His leading; another great feature in Luke. Having instructed them, opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, and said unto them, Thus it is written. He spoke of the law, the prophets, and the Psalms -- the whole Bible -- and then He led them out as far as to Bethany. They are amenable to His leading, and He went up from them there. He was received up into heaven; thus heaven

is expressing its corresponding delight in Him, as at the beginning, at the Jordan. He is received up, "And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem". They knew what to do, they are like sons of God, led of the Spirit of God, add are "continually in the temple, praising and blessing God".

CHRIST AS MODEL IN SUPERIORITY TO CIRCUMSTANCES

Luke 10:21; Luke 11:1; Luke 21:37; Luke 22:39

The Lord's position as in these verses is in the way of example. Matthew, in the same setting as we have in Luke 10, records the Lord's words, "Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me" (Matthew 11:29). He formally presents Himself there as a Model, calling attention to what He was -- "meek and lowly in heart".

I might have spoken from that passage, but I was minded to speak from Luke, so as to bring out from the Lord's example that the saints should learn how to become accustomed to spiritual buoyancy. Luke presents the testimony -- the Lord's ministry -- in this connection. Luke's gospel is marked by it throughout, ending up, as you will recall, with our Lord extending His hands in blessing His disciples, and as in this attitude being "carried up into heaven", or, as we are told elsewhere, "received up in glory". The disciples, instead of being depressed or discouraged, returned to Jerusalem, the place of testimony, and were "continually in the temple, praising and blessing God". That is how the gospel ends, as you will remember, and that is how it is presented to us. It is the testimony of the gospel in the saints as marked by a spirit of holy buoyancy, the spirit of victory indeed.

Hence you will find in the chapter that presents it supremely -- chapter 15 of this gospel -- that the Lord is seen as a Shepherd, losing one of His sheep and finding it; and He calls persons together to rejoice with Him for He has found His sheep. A great benefaction had accrued to the sheep, but the joy was with the Bestower, and others are called into it. Then again the woman who loses a piece of silver

and finds it, also calls her friends and neighbours together and asks them to rejoice with her. All this reflects what was going on in heaven. The father of the prodigal does not call his friends and neighbours, what is in view there is more blessed even than that; nor is it presented as a figure of what is in heaven. The prodigal had spoken to himself of hired servants, and that he would be one, too, indicating how little he understood what was before him, and what the gospel proposed.

As he reached his father, there is no word about hired servants. The hireling flees, we are told, he does not belong to that holy place, that association, but the bondman does; the bondmen are called upon to serve, dear brethren. It is christianity that is in mind, when there are no hired servants, but bondmen. The idea of a bondman, in this sense, is one who loves. The Lord Jesus, indeed, is figured to us in the type of the Hebrew bondman, as you well know, as One who loves. One who was possessed of love; One that ascends, but who comes down in descending love, and horizontal love, and in ascending love, too.

These are the features, beloved brethren, that belong to christianity, and they decide the future of the prodigal. The father says -- we all know the beautiful language -- "Bring out the best robe, and clothe him in it, ... and bring the fatted calf and kill it; and let us eat and make merry". The bondmen surely understood; they were not hired servants. Hired servants, today, mark the christian profession, but they are not the ones that are called upon to bring out things, these bondmen are persons who can go inside where the best things are kept, and bring them out. Then we have the father's words, "let us eat and make merry". The picture shows music and dancing inside; the bearing of Luke 15 is inward, it is not our relief. Divine

Persons are working for Their own satisfaction, and bring others into it. The music and the dancing went on. The elder brother had no taste for that; the father did not honour him with the pronoun 'we'. He justifies what is going on, that is the point today. "It was right to make merry and rejoice", he said. How important is the word, "it was right". That settles everything. It was right to make merry, not that 'we should', not that the elder brother should be in it. The father is justifying what is current; the state of spiritual merriment "was right". It adds in verse 24, "And they began to make merry" -- there is no end to that. There is instruction to follow up what has already begun on the divine side, "they began to make merry". Why should I not be in that? If I do not have any part in it, I shall have very little effect in my testimony or preaching, for I do not rightly represent the position. The point is to represent the position that God has brought about.

Well, the Lord, in chapter 10, at a crucial hour, "rejoiced in spirit". I apprehend that Luke has in mind to set out how the early christians, the apostles and others who were with the Lord, were formed according to what He was, not only by what He said, but by who He was, and what marked Him under certain circumstances. We are all brought, more or less, if we are in any way with God, into critical circumstances from time to time; it is the making of us spiritually to experience critical circumstances. The apostle Paul speaks of his "despair even of living", such a terrible pressure came upon him. But through the experience he was the more qualified to write his second letter to the Corinthians; and what a letter it was! It was the letter of a man brought out of a crisis with God. He says, "God ... who has delivered us from so great a death, and does

deliver; in whom we confide that he will also yet deliver" (2 Corinthians 1:10).

These crises are the making of us, but let us go through them, dear brethren, in this way, confiding in God. As it says of David, he "strengthened himself in Jehovah his God" at a great and serious crisis when his men talked of stoning him, (1 Samuel 30:6). Then he called for the ephod. So here the Lord rejoices in spirit. He had just been denouncing the cities where most of His mighty works were done, for they were rejecting Him. The greatest possible testimony had been presented to them, and they were rejecting it. Capernaum itself, which had been raised up to heaven, should be thrust down to hell, because they were rejecting His mighty works, and rejecting Him, but He rejoices in spirit. He says, "I praise thee, Father". I am presenting that as a model for us in these days of pressure; that we may learn how to turn to God in holy buoyancy, in holy victory, as knowing Him. It says, "David strengthened himself in Jehovah his God:" and we see here, how Jesus, in keeping with this book, strengthened Himself, as we may say, supremely, as He "rejoiced in spirit" in that crisis. And what is the occasion of it? These disciples were recording their victory, and the thought had come into His mind that they were to be in heaven with Him; that their names were written there. Not simply that they were known, but they had names; every one in heaven will have distinction, and will be distinguished by a name. He calls the stars by name; infinite in number as they seem to be, and in variety, He calls them all by name. And He says, "your names". Can I take that home -- that my name is written in heaven? The thought of it causes joy of heart, dear brethren. He is going to have us there, He is going to have us in all the dignity that He has put upon us. What the work of God implies, as expressed in the name;

our names are there. I apprehend our names in heaven are potential, they represent what we shall be brought to, and what we shall be there. There will not be a single discrepancy between my name as it is there, and what I shall be there -- and the Lord rejoiced in the thought!

Moreover, He says to His Father, "thou hast hid these things from wise and prudent, and hast revealed them to babes". God is doing that today; the truth has been hidden; a sorrowful thing, for it is judicial; man has despised it, and God is resentful. He bears long, but He is resentful and He hides from certain ones and reveals to others. That is what He is doing every day. It shows what the public official christendom is losing, but, on the other hand, those who have things spiritually are being added to every day. "To him that hath shall be given". That is going on, and is causing joy to Jesus. He says, God is doing that -- "thou hast hid these things from wise and prudent, and hast revealed them to babes: yea, Father, for thus it has been well-pleasing in thy sight". The history of the assembly here, however sorrowful and dark at times, always yields something to Christ, I am sure of that. There has always been something to cause Him joy, and I want to be in that, I want to cause joy to Christ. He is making known some things to me that He is hiding from others; that is going on, beloved brethren, and we want to be in it, for it brings joy to Christ. Our meetings of this kind remind us of what is going on.

Well now, as I said, David had recourse to the ephod in a time of severest pressure, (1 Samuel 30), and here, Luke 11, the Lord is praying "in a certain place". Prayer and joy are concurrent; God indeed promises to make us joyful in His house of prayer, (Isaiah 56:7). Prayer expresses dependence on God. The ephod is the priestly garment particularly,

and David had recourse to it, marking him off as truly a priest. That is the next thing we are to have in mind, the position calls for this, it calls for joy, as the apostle says, "Rejoice in the Lord always: again I will say, Rejoice" (Philippians 4:4). Without prayer there will be no continuance of this joy, and so the Lord is "in a certain place praying". Now that word "place" reminds us of much. There is so much current today in certain places to cause sorrow. I have no doubt the word "place" alludes to the early part of chapter 10, and again to the end of the same chapter, where it speaks of "a certain village", where there was a complaining sister, and a sister who is in accord with the spirit of the moment. This section of Luke includes the mount of transfiguration, and that mount implies that Jesus, according to the mind of heaven, is to be listened to. The Voice says, "Hear him". Mary is occupied with that, she is in the spirit of the moment, a great matter! It is a spiritual thing. It is a great matter to be in the spirit of the moment, to be in accord with it. As surely as I am in accord with it, I shall be persecuted by someone, maybe my nearest relative; it was so in this case. The persecutor was not only persecuting her sister, but the Lord. She was accusing the Lord. It is a local matter, and I speak of it now, because of so many local difficulties. How are they to be met? Certainly not in a complaining, or discouraged, or depressed spirit, but in heavenly buoyancy, because I am victorious myself. If I am not, I cannot help in these circumstances; I can but add to the sorrow if I touch it. It is nearly certain that I shall get into the current of the enemy if I touch it, apart from being myself in victory.

This wholly relates to heaven, as we see in the beginning of chapter 11; there is the spirit of prayer, the Lord was praying in a certain place.

An important word there, because He is a Model here. In Luke 6:12 He prayed all night, the length of His prayer is stressed, how burdened He was! But here, we are not told of its length, the passage centres on the word "ceased:" an important word in our meetings for prayer. I should have the end in mind and not meander on. The Lord ceased, and the disciples waited until He ceased. We have to wait until our brethren cease. 1 Corinthians 14 contemplates that while I am speaking, I become conscious that another should be speaking and I cease. It is very important to learn how to cease. The Lord ceased from prayer and the disciples saw Him. I should like to have seen the Lord in prayer. One of His disciples wanted the Lord to teach them to pray. He must have the pre-eminence in all things, and certainly in prayer. He immediately says, "When ye pray, say, Father". That is to say, He puts the terms of relationship, involving liberty, into our mouths, and into our hearts, showing that prayer is not to be forced or legal, but in liberty. He tells them to say, "Father, thy name be hallowed". The Lord's formula here has in mind local conditions. The name of Father is to be hallowed; it is not to be used lightly; not to be profaned by light usage; it is a question of what is spiritual; we say "Father" by "the spirit of adoption" (Romans 8:15). That is, we know how to pray. "Thy name be hallowed". That implies the divine name is used with reverence. "Father, thy name be hallowed; thy kingdom come". That is to say, let God's power come in; there is no other power than the power of God to meet these matters, and it is available to us.

Well now, the passage in chapter 21: 37 alludes to a place of spiritual resort. The Lord sets the example in that. John alludes to this on one occasion only in his gospel, saying that others went

to their own homes, "but Jesus went to the mount of Olives" (John 8:1). The reflection is on those who had been with Him, "every one went to his home". Luke does not mention that, but that the Lord was teaching during the day. Those of us who have any little part in the service know how onerous it is, not only physically, but in regard of our obtaining from the Lord what is needed and suitable to present to the saints. That causes the greatest labour. Now the Lord sets us the example here as to that, daily He taught in the temple. How untiring His work must have been! Ready to answer questions, ready for anything that came up to help men to take any opportunity for this! But then, what about the night? This is a searching matter as to where one spends one's nights, in this sense. The night is distinguished from the day. The night is the special time of secret resource. It was the period of the Lord's secret intercourse with heaven. Where is it? The mount of Olives. It is a matter, dear brethren, to be looked into. Indeed, I believe it is intended to suggest, to use a well-known term, an out-of-the-world state of things, not exactly heaven, but an out-of-the-world state of things. Jerusalem represents the world, the sphere of testimony and public toil; it is not the sphere in which one lives. There is another sphere for that, as I said, an out-of-the-world one. It involves the power of abstraction or withdrawal from what is seen and public, so that we draw upon what is invisible, which alone suffices for the public service; that is, that one draws from heaven. The mount of Olives was the place of heavenly resource; the Lord was accustomed to go there. It was not here like going to Bethany; we are told elsewhere, He went and spent a night at Bethany, but the point here is the mount of Olives, which has its own meaning in Scripture.

Matthew and Mark tell us that the Lord as having instituted His supper, instructed His disciples about the new covenant and the cup, and then they sang a hymn, and they went to the mount of Olives. No doubt the Lord did, too, but that is not the point there. The point is to bring in a moral state of things, so that there is united movement; that we might move together to that place, laying the basis for assembly service. The Lord here is leading the way. This, He says, is My place of resource; every night I am here. You see what a Person He is! His resources were all there, as a dependent Man He was out of view. You could not find Him in Jerusalem, nor anywhere save here. "By night ... he remained abroad on the mountain called the mount of Olives". He was accustomed to be there. What times must have been spent there by the Lord alone! but He says, "I am not alone". He speaks of being "alone; and yet I am not alone, for the Father is with me" (John 16:32). He had always His Father to go to (the Father is the source of all), to receive of Him strength, as a Man, a dependent Man here. How essential that is for preaching! With what power He would come into the temple and preach!

In the next passage, chapter 22: 39, He goes there and His disciples follow Him. It is no doubt the same occasion, but not as Matthew and Mark record it. It is not here that they went there, but that He went there, it was His custom to go. Now it is a question of His sufferings, He is entering into them, not from Gethsemane, but from the heavenly side -- and as to ourselves, how differently we enter them from the heavenly side. It is a question of the power of the Spirit of God, supporting us through suffering. So you will notice that His disciples follow Him here. The time had come for that, the time has come for that, and in view of the intensest suffering, as following Him, we have recourse to an out-of-

the-world state of things: we follow. We shall go through the sufferings buoyantly in power with the Lord; feeling everything as it should be felt, but going through them in power -- and therein lies the testimony. It is what one is in suffering, in persecution -- that is the testimony; not the mere sufferings, but what one is in them.

That is what Luke presents to us, what Christ was in going through the sufferings, how supported He was. He went to the mount of Olives, not to Gethsemane here, as I said, and He finds spiritual support, and is in accord with heaven in the acutest sufferings. Hence the Lord as presented in Luke is evangelical on the cross, showing that I can be evangelical, and in spiritual buoyancy in the severest sufferings, as maintaining my touch with heaven, drawing my resources from the true spiritual source. Hence He evangelises on the cross, as I might say. The thief was saved there; and the Lord says to His Father, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do" (Luke 23:34). Beautiful words, denoting the Lord's infinite superiority to the sufferings. Luke presents these examples in testimony, so that having to do with things that involve suffering and maybe call forth our natural resentment, we may have the Lord before us as Model. As soon as ever mere natural resentment shows itself, I have lost my power. It is what I am as going through the thing that is the victory, that is, as I am in a forgiving spirit.

How are all these sorrows that have come up and exist in different localities, to be met? They are to be met in this way. I am outside the thing myself, I do not get into the quagmire, therefore I can help others. "But others save with fear, snatching them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh" (Jude 23). You snatch them out; you do not

leave them there; it is a question of power; "hating even the garment spotted by the flesh". Some are to be saved, Jude says, let us save them. Luke would teach us how to save them.

May God bless these thoughts to this end!

GOD CALLING ATTENTION TO HIS PEOPLE

Matthew 3:16, 17; Genesis 20:7; Exodus 4:22, 23

What I have to say will bear on the presence of the people of God on earth, not so much as having a heavenly destiny and being already heavenly, but what would bear on our position on earth; and how God calls the attention of the world to us, that is to christians. How He informs the world, or its representatives, of what His people are towards it and for the world's benefit, and what they are as in the world towards God and for His benefit.

I read in Matthew so as to bring out the full divine thought in this respect, for we have to come to Christ for this, whatever may be in mind. We have to find it in Christ first. It is in Him God is pleased to set out all His thoughts, not only in principle, but in detail, in concrete detail. As here in flesh, the Lord Jesus is seen in the types, as anointed without dying -- without blood, so that His service was not on the ground of redemption in regard to Himself -- it was carried on on the ground of His own Person. He was announced on that ground, and so the voice from heaven is mentioned in Matthew 3:17 saying, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I have found my delight". Not all My delight, it does not say that, but My delight, leaving room for a great extension of what is there. From whom the voice was is not stated here.

In Mark and Luke the voice was directly to the Lord Himself; saying, "Thou art my beloved Son, in thee I have found my delight". That was for Himself in view of His service; an important pattern, that those who serve are to serve in the sense of divine complacency -- even delight. Thus the service is not only beneficial to those who hear, but

also pleasing to God. That is what Mark and Luke have in mind. Matthew uses another pronoun: "This is my beloved Son", showing that it was for other ears as well as for the Lord Jesus, and inasmuch as these ears are not specified it is obvious that the pronouncement bears universally. It is for all to hear. It resounds throughout the centuries, on earth and in heaven. It was intended for other ears, as I have said, as well as those of Jesus, but inasmuch as they are not specified or limited, obviously it has universal bearing. God has His own way of causing His words to travel. It may take time, but if He intends them for certain ears, these ears will hear. It says indeed elsewhere, "The Lord gives the word: great the host of the publishers" (Psalm 68:11). I suppose the publishers have continued ever since. No doubt a goodly number heard, and the point is that the words are to be heard by human ears.

On the mount of transfiguration we have the same thought. Peter says in a feeling, worshipful way, "this voice we heard". It was a voice from the excellent glory, and we heard it, he says, "when we were with him on the holy mount". Then, according to this same evangelist, it is said, "Hear him". The reference therefore on the mount is further and alludes obviously to the persons who were there. Persons represented in Peter who proposed to make three tabernacles there -- one for Jesus, one for Moses, and one for Elias -- a very unintelligent proposal, showing that the speaker had not as yet seized, although he had great opportunity, the truth of the great Person who was there. He had just heard by revelation that this Person was no less than Christ, the Son of the living God, and yet he would place Moses and Elias on the same level with Jesus, and heaven's voice was to correct that -- to put Jesus alone in His personal dignity. Moses had been heard, Elias had been heard and

are being heard, and the Lord Himself especially stresses that Moses should be heard, but the truth is brought out that the Moses that was to be heard got his message from this same Jesus -- no other. The writer of the tables on the mount was this same Jesus -- Jehovah; so that Peter was utterly at fault in placing Jesus on the level of Moses and Elias. "This is my beloved Son, in whom I have found my delight: hear him" (Matthew 17:5). That is the word to christians; persons already owned. There are many who are hearing others, and many drifting, on the line of placing others on the same level as Jesus. This is very dangerous -- it is a very bad line -- it is to be rebuked, for we are to have fixedly in our souls and in our minds this great Person. He has no equal -- He is God. He who builds the house, Scripture says, "has more honour than the house ... he who has built all things is God" (Hebrews 3:3, 4). Christ is the Builder of all things and He is God; the One to hear.

We are not told here that it was the Father who spoke, but who can say "my beloved Son" other than the Father? and He says His delight is there. What an object for the attention of the universe is this, and for ourselves now at this very moment! The Father says, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I have found my delight".

At this juncture He had come to the Jordan. The Lord never journeyed aimlessly; never took a holiday; never made the service of God a side line. All His journeys were taken with definiteness. He had journeyed from Galilee to the Jordan, we are told, with the express purpose of being baptised. Think of all that entered into His holy affections and mind at every step He took as He came to John! He had pleasure doubtless in seeing the people repentant and confessing their sins and being baptised by John. No one there would be more

interested than He; but He had not come for that, He had come expressly to be baptised. It was a wonderful day, no day in John's ministry like it. Not that anyone who had been there says anything about it, but the great baptiser himself; he tells us what he saw. He does not say that he heard these words I have spoken of, but he does say that he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and abiding on Jesus. John saw that, and he was full of it, according to John the evangelist's account. Jesus had in mind to be baptised, and John questioned with Him and said, "I have need to be baptised of thee". That is very suitable. One has the fullest sympathy with John on this point, he was full of his own insignificance in the presence of this great and glorious Person. Indeed, we are told by the evangelist that John bore witness and "cried" about this, a cry which expressed in this feeling way his littleness in the presence of the Son of God. He "cried saying, This was he of whom I said, He that comes after me is preferred before me, for he was before me" (John 1:15). None of us naturally wishes to talk of persons who are preferred before us, especially in service. The natural heart seeks the pre-eminence, but the heart affected by the Spirit of God, instead of making much of itself, makes much of Christ.

The significance of John's remarks would be understood by those who knew the facts, for John was born before Jesus. He was older by some six months, so that reference is not to age in manhood, but to deity. He was before me, he says, twice or thrice. He says further, "the thong of whose sandal I am not worthy to unloose". You can understand how genuine were John the baptist's feelings when he expostulated with Christ, saying, "I have need to be baptised of thee". The Lord says, "Suffer it now; for thus it becometh us" -- not becometh

Me. How beautiful that is! He links John with Himself. He says to Peter later in this gospel, "Give it to them for me and thee". It is very affecting to be linked up by the Lord's own lips with Himself. Here he says, "Suffer it now; for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness". That word ALL is worthy of the largest capitals you can write it in, bringing out the Man, how that He was not only personally, on the ground of His deity, able to enter on this service, but He is equal to it morally and that is within the range of every one of us. All righteousness must be considered as attaching to a servant before he enters on his service, and indeed in every connection. "Let thy priests be clothed with righteousness", for one is not in salvation unless one is righteous. So John suffered Him, and He is baptised and He came up out of the water. Heaven's delight in Him personally is expressed, but the moral element is evident in His remarks; as He came up out of the water, heaven is opened to Him and He is saluted on those lines. Heaven found for the first time in a servant what suited it infinitely and says, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I have found my delight". That is God calling the attention, as I said, of the universe to what He now has in testimony. In Matthew 12:18, quoted from Isaiah, it is said, "My servant, whom I have chosen, my beloved, in whom my soul has found its delight".

Well, what I have remarked I think will be intelligible to all, as indicating the great general position of the testimony, what God has and what stands. Christ has gone into heaven, but John says we know that the Son of God has come -- not come and gone, morally there is no change in this position. The Lord says, "Behold, I am with you all the days, until the completion of the age". Redemption accomplished, this is the great and glorious position, dear brethren, in which the testimony of God stands. The coming

down of the Spirit brings us into it according to God and fills out the great thought, but this is the principle of the great position on which the testimony of God stands -- what God has here.

Now I want to go on to Genesis, first to show how in those early days God calls attention to what He had. All, of course, is anticipative of what I have been saying. There could be no Genesis, there could be no Exodus, there could be no Old Testament without the prospective coming of the Son of God, the Incarnation; so that He is before all things, He is first in everything. The historical coming of the Lord cannot weaken the fact that He is "the beginning, firstborn from among the dead, that he might have the first place in all things" (Colossians 1:18). So what we get in this chapter is founded on what I have been saying. It is God here calling attention to one saint in obscurity and indeed in suffering; his position so weak that his wife is taken away from him and he cannot overcome the situation himself, but God can. What this chapter shows is God's protection of His saints, and how He calls the attention of the representatives of the world to them. Here God calls the Philistine king's attention to this man whose wife he had taken, He says "he is a prophet". I am speaking, dear brethren, not merely to interest you in a historical matter of hundreds of years ago. The Scriptures are not written on that line at all; the Scriptures always speak to the persons who read them, or hear them read. That is, it is their present voice that God would impress upon us. We know that, above all persons, Abraham represents that, because we are told in Galatians that the Scriptures "announced beforehand the glad tidings to Abraham".

Such is the service of the Scriptures; they always speak to the persons who read them, and therefore, as to Abraham, so also to the feeblest christian in

this room, or a christian who may be isolated and feels his feebleness. It may have never entered into your mind that God is protecting you in that position. Here a great disaster was pending, but it did not happen; and every christian should look up to God in the sense that he can count on His protection. The disaster did not happen, not because Abraham had any power in himself to prevent it. He had not, but God had, and God spoke to this man, this king of the Philistines, whom we may regard as being representative of authorities, and this is a great matter in the present time. God has a way of speaking to those in authority, and if He does speak, He has no pleasure in speaking to them about anything, but about Christ and His people here. We are feeble and the more we realise that, the stronger we are, but that is not a mere theory, it is something to take up in faith, for the great principle of the dispensation is faith.

If I am speaking now to those here who may be placed in feeble positions, two or three or more, this word is for you. It is for each one of us: in our conscious weakness, God takes up matters for us. At times it may be unknown to us; God's intervention was undoubtedly unknown to Abraham at the moment. See how God took up matters for Israel in the wilderness against the king of Moab. He works in an unseen way, but He also works governmentally in an outward way, and if He speaks at all, it is to call attention to what He has here representative of Himself. He says to Abimelech, this man that you are wronging is a prophet. He was very fair to the king, He said, I know your thoughts in this matter, but this man is a prophet. God is calling attention to this servant of His, Abraham, as a prophet, he represents Him, he is also a priest to Him; he is a prophet and he is a priest. Now what a great thing that is, God calling

the attention of some great person or persons in this world to a few feeble christians and identifying Himself with them! He "is not ashamed of them, to be called their God", and not only so but He ennobles Abraham in telling the king that he is a prophet. Now prophecy is not to minister to God, it is for men; and moreover Abraham was a priest. He "will pray for thee", Jehovah says. One can picture how an intelligent man such as Abimelech would, in measure, be affected, that Jehovah Himself had called his attention to this man, and what he was; he was these two things. Whatever the king thought about him, and his thought of him was not enhanced by the fact that Abraham was not just courageous about his wife, he had denied her true relationship to him. Yet God says, I think much of him; he is representative of Me; he is a prophet.

What a thing it is that there should be a christian in any community who can convey the mind of God to men and who can pray for men! God would encourage us to take up that position; an assembly position, because that is the thought today; there is nothing less than that in principle while the dispensation continues. If there is one person like that, or "two of you", as the Lord says, He will support them in whatever they undertake in faith. The support of heaven is there, but I am speaking now of God calling attention to the saints -- that Abraham was a prophet and he would pray for Abimelech. And it was that he might live. Now you can understand that if Abraham was a vindictive man he would pray that he should die, should be crushed; but no, God says that he will pray for you, and pray for you that you might live. That is our position. The testimony today is that men might live and not die. The gospel announces that. God has no pleasure in the death of the

wicked, He announces the gospel that all should come to the knowledge of the truth, that they might live. That is our position in relation to the world. We are feeble, but let us take up the position in faith. God loves us to take up what is accorded us. The Lord Himself says, "if two of you shall agree on the earth concerning any matter, whatsoever it may be that they shall ask, it shall come to them from my Father who is in the heavens". He goes on: "where two or three are gathered together unto my name, there am I in the midst of them" (Matthew 18:19, 20). So you see how much heaven thinks of our position here. In the next chapter Abraham is able to face this same Abimelech in power, and to exhibit before him the spirit that he should have. He says, there are seven ewe lambs for you; and what does that mean? It means that Abraham has the spirit of the heavenly man -- not the spirit of vengeance, but the spirit of Christ.

Now I go on to the well-known scripture in Exodus 4, to show you what is here for God; His portion. He says to Moses, "say to Pharaoh, Thus saith Jehovah: Israel is my son, my firstborn". It is a different message from the word to Abimelech, and it is not direct, it is through Moses, because in Exodus you have what is ministerial; it is now Moses and Aaron. The message comes through Moses, but it is plain, and it is about Israel. He says, "Israel is my son, my firstborn ... Let my son go, that he may serve me". That is the position in Exodus, and you can see how it is the counterpart of what I have been speaking of. Abraham was serving men, but Israel, as a son, was to serve God. You may say, serving man is serving God, because you carry out God's wishes, but this use of the word 'service' refers, as indeed in the New Testament, too, to our attitude towards God; something that is very much omitted in christendom. There is the idea of serving man, but very little service Godward, which is based

on sonship. Think of God condescending to tell the Egyptian monarch that He had a son, and as I said before, there can be no meaning to this word at all except in view of the Incarnation. In fact, this verse is set in relation to Christ, carried through Hosea to the second chapter of Matthew. Christ was God's Son, and so He had to go to Egypt, and He is called out of Egypt. Thus it is really exemplified in the Lord Jesus, and exemplified now in those who are, through Him, sons. It involves sonship in Christ and sonship in men.

Now, dear brethren, we are on the plane of this great thought of God; He has been bringing it to our attention for years. It had, I may say, been lost to the church for centuries; now it has been restored, and it is one of the most attractive and liberating features of the truth. God is stressing it day and night amongst His people, and here in the beginning of Moses' ministry the king of Egypt is told about it. The word today is that we might take it to heart that God calls the attention of others to the position of the saints in this sense. God says to Pharaoh, If you do not let My son go to serve Me, I will slay your son. God forgets nothing. There is not a nation on earth the records of which are not kept accurately with God, and what happens to the various nations is not by chance, it is the outcome of a long history in each case. God has His thought for His people, and those who have hindered His people from serving Him come in for His judicial dealings, and things become worse and worse with them. I am speaking now for ourselves, that we may take it home, this great privilege and responsibility conveyed in the word, "Let my son go, that he may serve me". That is the ground in Exodus, and what follows in Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, and throughout all Scripture fills out this great thought, and it is for each of us to take

it to ourselves; we are in sonship, and the divine intent of having sons here is that we might serve God. The idea of the service of God is a great thought. It formally begins here, and it is said by Paul in Philippians that "we are the circumcision, who worship (or serve) by the Spirit of God". That is the position today: God is worshipped in the power of His Spirit, and we are to carry on what is called the public service of God. I mean public in the sense that anyone can see that there are those who love God, and reverence God, and who would gratify His heart; whose main business here is to do this; serving in a spiritual way, not in outward forms, but as those who worship by the Spirit of God, having no confidence in the flesh.

Now that is what this passage in Exodus teaches, and if you will look, at your leisure, at the chapters that follow, you will be impressed with how God keeps this thought before Pharaoh in all His messages to Pharaoh until the people are free. He keeps calling attention to it, nor does Moses ever fail to stress it -- all resulting in this, that the very last word Pharaoh said to Moses in this book, was: "go, serve Jehovah, as ye have said". God brought the world round to it, and they were compelled to let Israel go. This is very encouraging. "Go", Pharaoh says, "serve Jehovah as ye have said. Also take your flocks and your herds, as ye have said, and go; and bless me also". The service began at Sinai. Pharaoh said earlier, "Go, serve Jehovah; only, let your flocks and your herds remain". But Moses said, "Our cattle also must go with us: there shall not a hoof be left behind; for we must take thereof to serve Jehovah our God". Today we must have the children and cattle -- everything we have is subservient to this great thought. Israel's deliverance from Egypt is a wonderful testimony to the power of God on our behalf as we get on to right lines; as we see

what His mind is and take up our position according to it: this is how it will be until the end. He will see us through as we move on the lines He indicates.

In this book He says, "ye shall serve God upon this mountain". That is what God says to Moses, and what that implies, dear brethren, is that in getting to the mountain we get to the place of resource. We may think we have nothing and that we cannot go on, but as we reach the mountain of God we find resource. "On the mount of Jehovah will be provided", was said earlier, (Genesis 22:14). Well, that is what I had in mind for this meeting. May God bless it!

GATHERING WITH CHRIST

Numbers 15:32 - 36; 1 Kings 17:10 - 12: Acts 28:3

These scriptures, as will have been observed, refer to sticks. That is why they have been read at this time, as it is believed that the Spirit of God in writing or inditing these passages was providing material for ministry, which He, in due time, would use for the instruction of God's people. They suggest indeed what a variety of material Scripture contains, deposited as it were with a view to subsequent need and use. As in the earth, the Creator with wonderful forethought and consideration places such material as should be needed as the human race proceeded on its way. There are marvellous deposits which are regarded as riches, whether potentially or actually, in the various continents, besides what is called the fulness of the earth, which latter expression signifies what comes out of it by the energy of life.

Gold does not come out of the earth on that principle; it is taken out by human strength and the like. As early as the days of Job, which would probably be patriarchal days, corresponding with the book of Genesis, we have reference to such deposits and the means of securing them, as witnesses of the bounty and forethought of our Creator. So these scriptures correspondingly contain rich deposits, as I may call them, in view of subsequent needs and exigencies, and it is for those who recognise the Spirit, who has placed them there, to depend on Him under the Lord to bring them out, so that saints should be enriched.

Although the word stick refers to what is ordinarily very common, a piece of wood strewn, as intimated in the book of Numbers, yet it has its own voice; indeed we have it in a wonderful setting

in the book of Ezekiel, the book which treats among many other things peculiarly of life. In chapter 37, which deals with this very matter, and which also treats of the valley of dry bones, you have reference to two sticks. The woman of Zarephath had in her mind two sticks, but Ezekiel, by the Spirit, speaks of two sticks in a very different way. The woman had two sticks in her mind in order that she might cook a morsel of food and die. Ezekiel is directed to have two sticks in his hand, one representing the kingdom of Judah, and the other representing Joseph or the ten tribes. These two sticks were to be in the prophet's hand and become one there, as a type that all Israel shall be in perfect unity in the end. And, as applied today, that the saints once divided, once at rivalry, once envious of each other, should now become one. The opening up of that is in the epistle to the Ephesians and applies to every gathering of the Lord's people, that as in the hand of Christ we should be in the unity of life. I make those remarks, dear brethren, so that you may see the place this idea of the stick has in the Scripture, and how used, in order that we might put ourselves under that insignificant heading and see what a place gathering has in mind according to God. The Lord says, "he that gathers not with me scatters", and the idea of gathering runs through these passages.

The first is in the book of Numbers in a chapter that is speaking about the land of Canaan. Later the idea of stick arises in regard to a borrowed piece of iron that fell into the Jordan. The prophet Elisha cuts down a stick and casts it into the water where the axe-head fell, and the axe-head swam; referring to the virtue of the stick. This is a type, insignificant though it appears, of none less than Christ entering into death; so that we who would have sunk for ever into it are caused to live, and not only to live, but in principle to swim, as superior

to the power of death. Hence you may see what a great place the idea of a stick has and how thoroughly it is subverted in the first scripture.

Numbers 15 is full of the richest thoughts, as you will see if you look into it. It begins with most important references typically to christians as to balance, that every main offering, whether a lamb or a larger creature, was to be accompanied by other proportionate offerings. The larger the creature the larger the accompanying oblations and drink-offerings. So brothers in assembly should be balanced, their minds should not travel ahead of their hearts, or their affections, and that all should be in power in suitable intelligence.

The worship or service of God is to be conducted in suitable feeling and in balance, as it says, "I will sing with the spirit", meaning that my feelings or affections are in the singing. But it also says, "I will sing with the understanding also;" meaning that I am not using words that are inappropriate. Now that is how the chapter begins, and it ends with calling attention to the riband of blue often referred to amongst us, as indicating that we, as believers in Christ, are to shine here as heavenly; that we are to understand that we belong to heaven. The lace of blue was to be on the corners of their garments, meaning that in a difficult critical moment in our relations with one another, or with others, we maintain a heavenly spirit, and do not give way to the naughty contentions of the flesh.

That is how this chapter is encased, as I might say; other beautiful things are also seen. But now we have this terrible action of a certain person while Israel was in the wilderness. We are not told just what part of the time this occurred, for they were forty years in the wilderness, and this happened while they were in it. Inasmuch as the time of this action is not specified, it is to be viewed

as characteristic, such as was likely to take place at any time, the wilderness being the scene of contrariety; provocative in that way. But whatever the provocation, dear brethren, the supply to meet it is abundant, and we get it in this very book. Indeed, in all the wilderness books, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy, we get this supply so that there need be no defeat by circumstances. One of the most difficult things is to keep above our circumstances. If we get under them, we are pretty sure to do something high-handed, or to say some lawless thing. If we are above our circumstances we know where to draw from, so that there is nothing of this kind. In a few verses immediately preceding, there is an allusion to high-handed conduct; a most common thing in christendom. It began in a general way, sorrowfully near the time of the apostles, indeed, it began in their own times. Paul speaks of the mystery of iniquity, and while that is a secret thing, high-handed actions soon began to grow out of it, and they have continued ever since; and they are increasing. There never was a day of boldness such as this; bold opposition to God; to the truth; to Christ, to the assembly; to the Spirit. Indeed, it culminates in speaking blasphemously against the Spirit of God, a sin which is never to be forgiven.

So this man in the wilderness goes out on the sabbath and gathers sticks. You might say he was doing no one any harm, but he was doing harm to God; he was calling in question the whole dispensation of God. The sabbath in the types represents what God has found in Christ and what man finds in Christ by the Spirit. In these two thoughts christianity essentially is embodied; Christ is the centre for God, and the centre for us. That is to say, for contemplation, for rest. God can rest in the midst of a troubled scene, and men can rest in the midst of

a troubled scene. That is what the sabbath signifies; it was expressly called the sign of the covenant. God had on the mount opened up His mind to Moses in the pattern of the tabernacle; in all these chapters, from Exodus 25 to 31, unfolding what He had in mind in a variety of features in the pattern of the tabernacle.

In truth He was occupied all that time with Christ in type; Christ as Man. What a time God had in unfolding all this to Moses! Moses did not fully understand, of course, it is for us as having the Spirit to understand. Moses sought to see the glory of God, but God said, No, only My back parts. The tabernacle signifies more than His back parts. The antitype implies the glory of God shining in the face of Jesus. That is christianity. But God had Christ before Him in all that He was saying, and He was delighted, and so in the end He refers to the sabbath. If you will look at the end of chapter 31 you will be impressed by the recurrence of the word there, reminding us of the place it has in the divine thoughts. You get a statement there that you get nowhere else: "on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed". We do not get that in Genesis, yet the allusion is to Genesis, but God reserved this precious thought for the particular occasion, when for forty days He had been unfolding the glories of Christ and the universe that centres in Christ; when He finishes He reverts to that, He was refreshed. Think of the blessed God speaking in that way and embodying His everlasting covenant in it: and He announces His judgment against anyone that disregards the sabbath.

The first mention of the sabbath by name is in Exodus 16, and that was in relation to the manna, as no doubt most of you know. The occasion is very affecting, because it alludes to Christ humbled here; that is, what He was here as Man and how God

rested in Him! But even there you do not get the statement that God was refreshed. It is after the unfolding of the glories of Christ in the type, and the universe that God has in mind to set up. Then God comes back to this great thought and calls it a sign of the covenant, of the everlasting covenant between Himself and Israel. As we take all these things into account, we see the very important place the sabbath has. After what I have alluded to in chapter 31, we have the failure of Israel, in Exodus 32 and 33. Then after the second giving of the law, chapter 34, God again refers to the sabbath, enjoining it upon His people; before they bring one item of the material for the tabernacle the observance of the sabbath is again enjoined.

Now this man has disregarded all this. In this action of gathering sticks on the sabbath he is setting aside the dispensation. He is giving a lead typically that has been taken up in christendom and spread abroad, and is seen today in the hierarchy and paraphernalia that belongs to what is called the public worship of God. There is a disregard of what God had in mind as characterising the whole dispensation. You can see from the sequence of this conduct how it behoves us, if in any way we are linked up with high-handed conduct such as this, to abandon it for ever; not to stay a moment in it. It is under the judgment of God; there is no forgiveness for it. I am not speaking of individuals now, but of the principle of this evil, and we do well to follow the example of Moses and Aaron here, and of Israel. They put the man under custody; they did not know just what to do; it was a new thing; it was a bold action; he gathered sticks on the sabbath. It is not said what he was going to do with them. Satan does not divulge his mind at the outset, it is sometimes in mystery. He has formulated his opposition to God systematically.

Systematised error is the most deadly error, and that is found in christendom. Satan systematising, and embodying his nefarious thoughts against God, so as to offset and subvert all that God has inaugurated, is what marks our day. Satan's intent is to set aside the holy dispensation that is established in Christ.

That is the position, and, as I say, we do well to put this matter "in custody", as it were, if we do not understand it, and there are thousands and thousands of our brethren who do not. If we do not quite understand it, put it in custody, that is to say, give it that place in your mind, give it consideration. Let your language be, I want to judge this thing, I want to consider what you are saying, and I want to arrive at a right judgment about it. If you do you will get it. You will be sure to get it, they got it here, and it was summary: "The man shall certainly be put to death", says Jehovah. Putting to death in this sense today is not to be understood literally. We read of Jezebel's children being killed with death: that is not literal death -- it is moral death. There is such a thing as that, the judgment of God executed in a moral way. As soon as I put the thing in custody, I mark it off as something that requires the mind of God, God will give me His mind about it, and the next thing is to execute it. What God reveals to you, put into effect.

Let no one think that the mere judgment of a thing is of any moral worth, unless it is put into effect. Holding a thing as wrong and following it, continuing in it, is to damage your soul. That is the trend of it, to weaken you, to disqualify you for any testimony. Here God made His mind plain to them, and they carried it out, "as Jehovah commanded Moses". That is one of the finest statements you get, and God loves that very thing; it is those who have His commandments, and do them, who

love Him. This has been going on for years. Thousands of God's people have acted on it, and it is for you today, if there is anyone here who is linked up with these things, to put it into custody. If you do not understand clearly, look into the Scriptures and you will get light, and the next thing is to act, and act at once. What these sticks were to be used for is not stated here, but we now know what is in mind typically; what systems have been formulated ever since apostolic times, how men are gathered together, systems that are regarded as almost immovable because of their antiquity. But God is going to take that great system Babylon and let it drop down into the sea like a millstone never to rise again. That is His judgment.

Well, I proceed to the second passage, that in Kings. It is a well-known chapter, a chapter that introduces to us one of the most notable men in Scripture -- Elijah the prophet. He was, as you know, maintained by ravens by the brook Cherith, near the Jordan, and the brook dried up, and then God says to him, I have commanded a woman to maintain thee. Elijah represents the testimony that God has at the moment, and what God has in our day needs to be maintained. It is obligatory on every one of us to see that we are maintaining it in so far as we are able. So the prophet wended his way across the country to Zarephath, which is near Zidon, the gentile regions -- the Lord Jesus alludes to this Himself -- and as he arrives at the place he finds this woman gathering sticks, a very suitable occupation under the circumstances so far as it appears. What is she going to do with them? That is the point, we may be doing what is apparently right with a wrong thought in our minds. She gives an account of her work to the prophet; and this raises the whole question as to what we are doing; what each one here has in mind as to his gathering.

Gathering is the order of the day. God says, I will gather others besides those that are gathered, a very encouraging word for us -- besides those that are gathered. Do not let these go, they are precious, but besides these, there are others to be gathered. So that gathering enters into all our evangelical exercises and work; the point is to get persons, and what for? Not for my own glory; not to make a party round myself, that would be akin to the man in the wilderness gathering sticks. Gather for the assembly, dear brethren, gather for Christ.

This woman tells the prophet what she had before her. She had in the house a handful of meal in a barrel, and she had oil in a cruse. Very good! God marks this, and she was really on better ground than she thought she was. She had the meal, she had it where it should be, there is just a handful, but it is in the right vessel; and the oil is in the right vessel, too; but then she says, "I am gathering two sticks". She is very limited in her thought. Well, that would be quite in order if she only had a right thought in the work. Some of us here may not have gathered even one stick for the assembly. That is a poor thing, because gathering is what God is engaged in. That is what God is doing -- it is the gathering time. One of the first things you get in the book of the Acts is gathering. God has gathered His own; the assembly is the fruit of His gathering. So that it is a question of what I have gathered. Have I helped in any way to gather with Christ? The gospels show us how He gathered, and how He prayed about His own that were gathered; that they should be one, He says. Not only that, but Scripture says, He died that He might gather together into one the children of God that were scattered abroad. That was the thought, and it may be that a good many of us would have to admit that we have never gathered a stick for the

assembly. This woman is gathering two sticks that she may prepare this oil and this meal for herself and her son "that we may eat it, and die". That is very poor, that is not christianity; that is a negative thing, it is the very opposite to christianity.

I was speaking to you the other day of how the Lord said to Abimelech, king of the Philistines, referring to Abraham, "for he is a prophet, and will pray for thee, that thou mayest live". It is a dispensation of life, and christians are imbued with the spirit of life, but this woman was gathering two sticks that she might die! Will she ever maintain the prophet? No, a dead woman and a dead boy will not maintain anything. We do not eat to die, we eat to live; the divine appointment is to eat and live. The Lord taught His disciples to pray, "give us today our needed bread". Apparently she had enough for the day, but she was thinking she would die tomorrow. So that you see it is only as we are on the divinely-appointed lines that we can maintain the testimony. It is living people, as Hezekiah says, "The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I this day" (Isaiah 38:19). The chapter before us in 1 Kings, as you will all know, is most remarkable. The woman's son died, but not for want of food; the handful of meal did not diminish nor did the oil fail all the year, and the woman had the honour of maintaining this great servant of God for the testimony. The son died from sickness, but he was raised up, made to live by the power of God through the prophet, so that as she maintained him (she is called "the mistress of the house"), he maintained her. That is to say, God is no debtor to anyone; as we maintain what is His, He maintains us far above any expectations of ours. The son is raised up and given back to the woman as brought up from the dead.

Now I come on to the last scripture to show how the gathering of sticks works out in the hands of the greatest of servants, for there is no greater than Paul, save the Lord Jesus. He is in very trying circumstances, he has just had a terrible voyage, a voyage under the government of God which no one felt more than he, he knew the secret of it. It is a type of the whole voyage, of the testimony. The breaking up of the ship is a type of the history of the public assembly in its decline and break up -- no one felt it more than Paul, and now he is on land on the island of Melita or Malta in the Mediterranean, a well-known place nowadays. This remarkable incident took place there, the great servant and those with him reached there in wintertime. It is always a trying time -- I am speaking now spiritually; winter spiritually is a very trying time. It comes in the cycle of the year as God says, "Henceforth, all the days of the earth, seed time and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night, shall not cease" (Genesis 8:22). Here it was cold, it says expressly, that it was cold, but the inhabitants of the place received the company. They are called barbarians, the word of course you know was relative. It did not mean that they were barbarians in the sense that we speak. They were not Greeks, but they were a very kindly people, and what a comfort it was to come into a district such as this, especially to find warmth. The writer says, they showed us no little kindness, it is not said that they were converted, the point was that they were friendly. You know, fellowship has become a technical thing amongst us. It may be as cold as ice! I have been in meetings nominally in fellowship, but cold. Hence the importance of friendliness, kindly feeling towards visitors, is stressed here. The "chief man of the island" is mentioned. Let us not be disrespectful, in these

democratic times, let us not be disrespectful towards persons of distinction. God enjoins us to honour them to whom honour is due.

So we have the chief man of the island here; he is kindly disposed towards Paul and the others. It is not simply that people are nominal christians, but it is a question of their kindness, their hospitality, their friendship. John uses the word "friends". "Brethren" has become a hackneyed word, not that it has lost its power spiritually. God would dissipate all unspiritual use of words and bring in the power attaching to them, and what belongs to the term brethren is friendship; friendship must be there. These were friendly, and so they treated us kindly, the writer tells us, and one of the best things they did at the outset was to light a fire, because it was cold. How the apostle Paul would cherish that fire; coming up out of the sea, and the terrible time over, when for weeks neither sun nor stars appeared! Now he is in the midst of friendliness, love, consideration, and the testimony to it in this fire. Then Paul comes out as a true servant as Jesus was: "I am among you as he that serves", He said. No true servant today would wear a clerical garb, nor regard himself as one to be set upon a throne and ministered to by all. Paul becomes the servant of all: he goes out and gathers sticks in that place. Put him alongside that widow in Zarephath, or that man in the wilderness, and you see the difference. He gathers "a certain quantity of sticks together in a bundle and laid it on the fire". He did it all himself, he is like his Master. The Lord Jesus said, "I am among you as he that serves". Mark "I am among you". I believe the Lord Jesus as here with them, would do anything that was to be done for His people. So with Paul as to those that were with him -- he gathered the sticks and placed them on the fire -- how beautiful that is! He would keep up the volume of heat

and they would all be comforted. The fire was not going to die out if he were there -- nor will any warmth wane where anyone is who has the spirit of Christ. The point is to keep up the temperature, to get up the temperature in the meeting, not to fever heat, but to comfort heat. There are those amongst us who have no gift, but the thing is for them to add to the heat spiritually, as Paul did.

But then there is that terrible thing that happens -- a viper comes out. It does not say from the wood; the point is to call attention to the activity of the devil in these circumstances, that where warmth is he would spoil it, and he would discredit the one who is keeping the fire going. It is as if some might say to Paul, You are in prison now, you must resign your leadership, you cannot go about as you used to. Paul would say, The Lord said that by me the preaching is to be fully known, (2 Timothy 4:17). We cannot set aside Paul or anyone that the Lord raises up; but the viper, that is the devil, would discredit that man, in robbing him of his power. The viper, we are told, "coming out from the heat seized his hand". Satan would say, There shall be no more gathering sticks like that. The idea was to put out the fire, and the antidote is to do what Paul did; he gathered the sticks, put them in a bundle and put it on the fire. Satan will do what he can, but the Lord promises to His servants "they shall take up serpents; and if they should drink any deadly thing it shall not injure them" (Mark 16:18). Such "signs that follow" them show, that the servants of the Lord need never to be under the power of Satan; they are always victorious. Hence let no one attempt to overwhelm them; normally this cannot be done. To attempt it is to fight against God. So the viper is just thrown back into the fire, that is the end of it. The barbarians thought something was going to happen, but they changed their minds, and the apostle and those that were

with him remained there for three months, the whole winter, and I suppose they never had such a winter in the island of Malta as they had that year. They had this wonderful servant of God and others of a like spirit there. We are told that Paul, having prayed, laid his hands on the father of Publius, the chief man of the island, and cured him of a serious disease; "the rest also who had sicknesses in the island came and were healed". The power of God was there. All this works out from this simple thought of adding heat to the fire, keeping the temperature at a considerable heat; as this is done, the enemy attacks, but the testimony is carried through. That is the position, dear brethren, so that Paul was sustained at Melita, as Elijah was at Zarephath, and laden with honours he goes on to Rome. It is said that he sailed in a ship that had "wintered in the island".

You see how God would bring us to this important point: however few sticks we may gather, gather them with this in view -- to add to what is there. The mere thought of getting numbers is dangerous; we must keep an eye on quality -- that which adds to what there is of God already present.

CHRIST IN THE TEMPLE

Mark 9:7, 8; Acts 1:1 - 4; Hebrews 8:1, 2

J.T. I have been thinking that in view of the subject before us -- Christ viewed as the Minister of the sanctuary -- His relations with the temple at Jerusalem as seen in the gospels should be in mind. For undoubtedly what is related is intended to instruct us, partly at least as to His service as the Minister of the sanctuary. The temple at Jerusalem stood for the sanctuary, the idea of it having begun in the wilderness at Sinai where God was to be served, as He says, "Let my son go, that he may serve me". As the sanctuary was in mind at Sinai, in view of the wilderness, He stressed the priesthood; that Aaron and his sons should serve Him as priests.

The Lord in His infancy was taken into the temple and spoken of there by Simeon; His great service being outlined prophetically by Simeon. Then at the age of twelve, He appears there Himself, being seen in the midst of the doctors, hearing and asking questions. As His parents are amazed at Him and ignorantly reprove Him, He says, "did ye not know that I ought to be occupied in my Father's business?" (Luke 2:49), as if He intended to informally set out that He knew where His Father's business lay. That word "business" involving in His mind very much; involving something very different from what the Jewish dove-sellers, sheep-sellers, and money-changers would regard as business. Their business there was money-making, commerce, which points to the present state of christendom, where the ministry as it is called, has become a trade. The apostle speaks of those who make a trade of the word of God. The Lord at the age of twelve had a different mind. He was hearing and asking questions,

and He was marked by "understanding and answers" even then; showing what is implied in the temple; in the house, which He afterwards calls His Father's house. Now it was His Father's business, but later His Father's house. So that His Father's business and His Father's house coalesced in that way. Later, in John 2:13 - 16, He is seen cleansing the temple, and He calls it His Father's house. According to Mark, He is seen looking around in it directing that no package should be taken through it. In Matthew He is seen explaining the singing, the praise of the children there; commending what they were doing.

These instances, I think, help us as to what the Lord is now engaged in as the Minister of the sanctuary, specially vindicating the praise rendered to Himself as opposed by others; a comforting thought for us in our time when those who love the Lord are carrying on the divine service unostentatiously and free from ritual -- ordinary religious ritual -- and coming under reproach because of it. But the Lord gives us to understand that He knows; He hears the praise, and He commends it; quoting from the Psalms, "Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou has perfected praise" (Matthew 21:16). So having that in mind we may look at Mark 9 as the sequence of the glory. The disciples looked around, after seeing the cloud, and after hearing the voice from heaven, but saw no one save Jesus only with themselves. I think if we bear this statement in mind in regard to our position today, Jesus only with ourselves, shorn of all man's innovations in the service of God -- man's art and device -- we shall be ready for what the Spirit opens up in regard to Christ as the Minister of the sanctuary, and what the sanctuary is; how that it is wholly exclusive of man's innovations. It is Jesus alone with ourselves, which we might say, describes eternity in a sense. How

great He will appear! The epistle to the Hebrews opens up to us how great and glorious He is; and indeed Colossians teaches us that we do not need any other, for "in him dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily", and that we are filled full in Him. Perhaps what I have said will give some little basis for consideration for our conversation together.

E.B.McC. I suppose it has always been the thought of God that He should dwell among His people and have a habitation here, as He said to Moses, "let them make me a sanctuary; that I may dwell among them" (Exodus 25:8).

J.T. That is right. Then, the sanctuary being built, who is to minister in it? That is what the type teaches. The priesthood appears at once, God stressing that it was as priests they were to serve, and not specifically "as sons", but "as priests", because what is so needed in carrying on the service in a contrary scene is intelligence, holiness, and all other traits that belong to priesthood.

C.H.H. Is the greatness of the Person of Jesus brought home to us by divine instruction? "This is my beloved Son".

J.T. Attention is called to Him on the mount, "This is my beloved Son". As Matthew says, "in whom I have found my delight: hear him". Attention is called to Him in the glory, that is, the glory is the background to our service, our position here on earth. But as coming down what is visible is "Jesus alone with themselves". The human mind will not be satisfied with that, and that is the general history of christendom. The human mind was not satisfied with "Jesus alone" and the saints. It wanted to add its own devices, whereas the true priestly state would keep to that, and the Lord would have this in mind in telling the disciples not to say anything about the glory they saw until He was risen. It is a spiritual matter, so that it becomes a question

of what is involved in this -- Jesus alone with ourselves. The book of Acts opens this up, showing how He comes in Himself amongst the brethren and presents Himself living. As if He would say, I wish you to understand Me -- while it is Myself and you, I want you to understand Me. No one else could present Himself as He did. He presented Himself living after He had suffered -- that is the position.

J.C.S. Do these circumstances on the mount serve to emphasise the majesty of the Lord Jesus, and His greatness as with us?

J.T. Yes, that is the background. They have seen all that and now they are coming down. They first look around suddenly, which you might expect. We are all apt to look around with active minds and natural desires; but it is dangerous to look around with natural desires, and say, We have only got the Lord, others have great showy things in their service, we have not.

P.L. Is this reference to Jesus developed in Hebrews 12:2, where we get "looking stedfastly on Jesus", and "Jesus, mediator of a new covenant", and bound up with the great system of glory?

J.T. I think that is what Hebrews is intended to teach. It has been called, the book of the opened heavens. That is, we see what is there as over against what was then at Jerusalem -- those who still served under the old system. It was a question of directing the saints away from what was visible -- the great system at Jerusalem and the hierarchy there -- to what is in heaven where everything centres now in the Person of Christ. So that four times over in the book He is said to have "set himself down", up there. It is His own action; in chapter 1, at the "right hand of the greatness on high;" in chapter 8 at the "right hand of the throne of the greatness;" in chapter 10, the "right hand of God", and chapter 12, at the "right hand of the throne of

God". Who can be greater than that? It is no less than a divine Person who is our High Priest. What is the Pope or the Archbishop, or any other religious dignitary compared with this Person? That is what Hebrews presents to us.

P.L. "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, and today, and to the ages to come" (Hebrews 13:8).

J.C.S. If God by the cloud would shut out from equality with Christ even Moses and Elias, who is to come in after that?

J.T. So the disciples looking around after the transfiguration, is a sort of challenge to us. What would we see? Some travel about the world and see the great buildings. Even the disciples were not free from this thought. They call the Lord's attention to the great buildings at Jerusalem, and we are apt to look around in this way, and be captivated by the religious greatness around us, whereas the true position is He and ourselves -- true christians, not simply Jesus alone, but with ourselves. How much will develop out of that position? What cannot be done with it?

E.B.McC. We see "Jesus ... crowned with glory and honour" (Hebrews 2:9). We see Him in that way.

J.T. That is the thought; we see Him there in all the greatness that is mentioned in the epistle. This is to be in our minds as seeing Him there, and then the wonderful fact is, we have Him. Of course He has us, but we have Him. Hebrews is to show how well off christians are in having "such a one high priest".

E.W.C. Is it that the assembly has Him in a special way?

J.T. It is the saints viewed in that way. The "we" would be christians characteristically.

A.W. Would the "babes and sucklings" suggest the attitude of mind we take up in the service of God?

J.T. That is how Matthew sets the thing before us; he treats of children in a peculiar way. He brings in Rachel weeping for her children. He accredits her, quoting from the prophets, with motherly qualities, a mother in Israel weeping for her children because they were not. The Lord Himself says to His Father, "I praise thee, Father, Lord of the heaven and of the earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them to babes. Yea, Father, for thus has it been well-pleasing in thy sight" (Matthew 11:25, 26). Then in chapter 18 the Lord calls a little child and sets him in the midst of the brethren, as an example, as over against ambition to be great in the kingdom. Then in chapter 19 he blesses little children and departs. In chapter 21 He is in the temple dealing with the dove-sellers and others, and the children begin to praise, and the priests and elders here ask the Lord, Do you hear what they say? As much as to say, they should not be praising here; and the Lord says, in effect, Yes, I hear them. "Have ye never read, Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise"? I think the Lord there asserts what enters into our present position. What is despised by the religious leaders is what He hears and approves of and defends; so we may rest under His wing in carrying on that service.

A.W. That should help the younger brethren to make a start.

W.H.W. Would the children in the temple be an illustration of what takes place if we are occupied with Jesus only?

J.T. Just so. Wonderful things develop out of that. There has never been such a service of God as that which has developed in christianity. It is the great thought of God; what He has developed from such a beginning; from babes.

The Lord is seen in Acts 1 as starting to set up things in view of the assembly. According to Luke He had led the disciples out as far as Bethany, and they returned to Jerusalem after He went up, and were continually in the temple praising and blessing God. But in the Acts He is looking towards the assembly in contrast to the temple, although it is still there and to be owned, but He is looking towards the assembly. Hence He presents Himself living to them. It is to occupy them with Himself; and then He assembles with them (verse 4). He has the assembly in His mind; that He is to be known there. I think you see in verse 4 some suggestion of the Minister of the sanctuary. He "assembled with them".

W.H.W. That is a further thought than in Mark 9, where they saw Jesus alone.

J.T. He is now assembled with them. The word "assembled" there would point, I think, to the sanctuary, that the Lord had in His mind that in which He should minister. I think we may see in Acts 1 that He is inaugurating a new order of things, the new service. He directs them as to the promise of the Father. He says, "await the promise of the Father, which ... ye have heard of me ... but ye shall be baptised with the Holy Spirit after now not many days". That would be the full thought of the sanctuary. The promise of the Father -- the Holy Spirit coming -- would inaugurate really the new place of service.

J.C.S. While in Mark we get "Jesus alone" emphasised, the thought here goes further, the same persons being now assembled.

J.T. Yes. He is now looking towards the assembly, the great service of God, and they were to do nothing, but await the promise of the Father.

E.B.McC. Would this go further than what you get in Ezekiel, the glory departing from the temple?

J.T. You mean the coming in of the promise of the Father would be the inauguration actually of the new system of things in which the Lord was to serve as Minister of the sanctuary, but it would be a heavenly order of things, awaiting Paul's ministry. The full thought did not materialise until Paul came on the scene, that is, it is a heavenly order of things; the figurative representation of things in the heavens was in the tabernacle.

A.W. The coming of the Spirit would give the power to carry on the service inaugurated by the Lord during the forty days.

J.T. Just so. The forty days are educational, teaching the disciples to be spiritually minded. The coming in of the Spirit would maintain all that, and be the power for carrying it on.

A.W. They would look back on these as pattern days.

J.T. Yes, they would look back to that spiritual education, but there was something further -- what came out of heaven. The Lord had not yet gone in as Man. He was going in and the Holy Spirit coming out, and what has been set up has been brought out of heaven. Christ as in heaven is Minister of the sanctuary. If He were on earth, He would not be a priest, but it is what He is in heaven as Man.

C.H.H. Would there be a connection between the Lord presenting Himself living and the coming of the promise of the Father?

J.T. What He was as presenting Himself living was one thing, but the Spirit coming in would bring in more than that, it is the glorious condition He is in up there, that enters into this service.

J.C. Would the idea the brethren received of the Lord Jesus presenting Himself living during those forty days be carried over, and as a pattern be presented to us?

J.T. Yes, it was an initial thought carried over,

but not yet a glorious Christ; the Minister of the sanctuary is Christ in heaven, not simply Christ as risen, but Christ in heaven. What He did during the forty days was pattern, as has been remarked, but it could not be the full pattern, because the Holy Spirit would bring in the heavenly side -- what Christ is there. We cannot say very much about it, as John says, "what we shall be has not yet been manifested; but we know that if it is manifested we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is" (1 John 3:2). It is His body of glory to which we shall be conformed.

J.C.S. Why was the conversation apparently confined to speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God?

J.T. Well, that was as far as the Lord went, but the coming in of the Spirit would mean more than that. It was reserved for Paul to unfold the great heavenly system, all was tentative until then. The coming in of the Spirit involved that in principle, but it awaited the doctrine of the mystery, which meant the full service of God. There can be no doubt that it was Paul who wrote Hebrews; anyway, it confirms his ministry. It is the heavenly system of things.

J.C.S. Were these conversations really preparatory in that way?

J.T. They were, leading up to the full thought.

C.A.I. Would Solomon in 2 Chronicles be typical of the Minister of the sanctuary in service?

J.T. In so far as it went; he did not go into the holy place, not being a priest, his service was in the court alone, but there is the great general thought of one in charge. The Minister of the sanctuary in the types is properly Aaron.

J.S.C. Does the idea of the Minister of the sanctuary and the priestly family, the sons of Aaron, go

as far as association as we speak of it, as in the epistle to the Colossians?

J.T. That is right. The first thing is to get a grasp of the Person who is Minister of the sanctuary, because He determines everything. It is He who gives character and dignity to the service. He will have to do with service on the earth, too, later on, but today the great heavenly system is set up, and all hinges on the Person -- who He is -- One able to set Himself down, as we are told, at the right hand of the greatness in the heavens.

E.W.C. Was the tabernacle really pitched by the Lord, until the Holy Spirit came down?

J.T. Not properly; it involves the heavenly position.

J.C. What is the spiritual idea connected with the word "pitched"?

J.T. The allusion is to the tabernacle in the wilderness. That is the type in Hebrews, pitching the tent, setting it up firmly with pegs and cords and so forth. Now, that is not in view, but what the Lord has pitched finally and permanently.

W.H.W. Is the thought in Acts 1 that the Lord as Minister of the sanctuary helps us in the way we should serve? The disciples turned to times and seasons, but the Lord passes over those.

J.T. He excludes that from them. It was not for them to know, so He says, "ye will receive power, the Holy Spirit having come upon you, and ye shall be my witnesses". "My witnesses" -- that is a further thought, but verse 4 is more, because He was assembled with them then.

J.C.S. The apprehension of the greatness of the Person who is before us would influence the character of the service and give tone to it.

J.T. It lifts us out of the range of mere current religion, however ancient or dignified. Who is there of church dignitaries who can take a place like this?

"Sat down on the right hand of the throne of the greatness in the heavens" (Hebrews 8:1).

S.H.B. Do we need to be exercised to apprehend the Lord a little more in this particular way -- as the Minister of the sanctuary?

J.T. I think we might have that before us -- first to be content with what there is. Many of us like a little more show than is available amongst the saints who love the Lord. If we are naturally minded we like a little more show than there is. Jesus and the saints are not quite enough for us. That is the first thing to see, I think, whereas those of us who understand a little of the truth, know the background of our position is the heavenly glory, what was seen on the mount, nothing less than that, where Jesus, according to Mark, is changed. His garments became so white, as it says, "exceeding white as snow, such as fuller on earth could not whiten them". It is a pure system of things, utterly exclusive of all human innovations. And then that there is no one to be heard in relation to this matter but Jesus -- "Hear him". He may use others, but He is the One who is speaking. "Hear him" -- that is heaven's voice, and then they look around and they see only Him and themselves. It is important that they see themselves, because the saints are essential to what is in the mind of God.

C.F.I. Would the voice from the cloud greatly dignify Him in their eyes, and then seeing Jesus alone with themselves dignify the saints?

J.T. The intent is that they should carry that on. Whatever others might think of them at Jerusalem, as over against the great buildings there and the high priest, they had this secret information -- those three men -- Peter, James, and John -- had the knowledge of the glory above, and who this Person is. Others would despise the position, but they knew, and that would sustain them. So Peter says, as he

is about to die, "we have not made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, following cleverly imagined fables, but having been eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received from God the Father honour and glory, such a voice being uttered to him by the excellent glory: This is my beloved Son, in whom I have found my delight; and this voice we heard uttered from heaven, being with him on the holy mountain" (2 Peter 1:16 - 18). Who could rob him of that? Nobody. They might despise him and say he was a Galilean, that he had a Galilean accent, and was only a fisherman, but who could take that out of his heart? Nobody. What strength he would have in continuing the testimony in Jerusalem! And that is our position now -- we have the secret knowledge of the glory, but the Lord says, Do not say anything about it until I am risen. It is a matter that relates to Christ in His spiritual state. We do not want to parade it to man's natural mind -- it is a spiritual matter, it does not pertain to man in flesh.

J.C.S. What you speak of still remains in spite of the breakdown publicly.

J.T. That is the thing. As the captives came back together from Babylon what holy vessels were available! According to the type in Ezra, and Nehemiah, the service of God begins; the altar is set up and the service goes on, and the word was, "The latter glory of this house shall be greater than the former".

A.E.T. When Peter spoke on the mount he linked Elijah and Moses with the Lord, but when he is giving an account in his epistle of what he saw, he leaves them out. He had come to understand "no man ... save Jesus only with themselves".

J.T. I expect he had left them out long before, as well as the three tabernacles -- there was only one. Moses and Elias certainly could not have a tabernacle alongside of Jesus. The truth is, the tabernacle

would be Jesus with themselves. The saints are the tabernacle here.

J.C. Does baptising with the Holy Spirit secure this one idea?

J.T. Yes. The Spirit is the power for unity. The promise of the Father, as here, is a characteristic word; the "Father" standing for the dispensation; the relation into which He has come. He is known as Father, which implies grace, pure grace. His promise would involve the dispensation, and what would be effected by the Spirit in the disciples themselves, so that Paul's doctrine opens up to us what is implied in the presence of the Spirit here as to unity; the body is implied. The idea of the tabernacle is developed by the presence of the Holy Spirit, so it really awaited Paul's ministry.

E.B.McC. If we think of 1 Corinthians 14, the tabernacle was set up and they were speaking as the Spirit gave them utterance.

J.T. Quite so; there was the exercise of the gift of ministry, but then we have in chapter 10 a reference to the body. "We being many are ... one body". That is, we are all baptised in the power of one Spirit into one body.

I am wondering whether we have grasped this position in Acts 1, whether we have followed the thought of Jesus alone with ourselves, and then His presentation of Himself to us -- what He is. Only He can present Himself aright. We may present Christ in our service in one way or another, by a word in ministry to the saints, or in the gospel, but only He can present Himself perfectly, and that is the idea. We want to have a view of Christ as He wishes us to have it. It is a question of what He wishes, how He presents Himself. The first thing is, He presented Himself alive after He had suffered. It is a touching thought, the presentation of Himself living after He had suffered. That is to be in

our minds; then His assembling with us, and then His word to wait for the promise of the Father. That would be essential to their answering to what was in His mind, and this would bring in the body, as in Paul's ministry. What He unfolds to us requires the body, the saints coming to apprehend one another in love, not simply theoretically, but in love; because the thing has no practical form or substance aside from our regarding one another in love; the Spirit sustaining us in unity and affection. It is in that, you reach the service of God. The Lord has a place there. He comes in at the Supper as showing Himself; particularly in the bread -- making Himself known. But how He presents Himself will depend on conditions.

J.C.S. Does this, the presentation of Himself in that way, furnish us with the substance required for the occasion?

J.T. You have to make room for that. How will He show Himself? He showed Himself in different ways according to 1 Corinthians 15, but the point here is, He presented Himself living, after He suffered. If the service is to go on, we must have a clear apprehension of Christ as He wishes Himself to be understood.

E.W.C. Would the presentation of Himself draw us into the power and liberty of the assembly?

J.T. Yes. He is very attractive as He presents Himself. It is not simply that He is there, but that He is there with us. They saw no one but Jesus alone "with themselves", but He was not yet presenting Himself. When He begins to present Himself you get something attractive. He is seen, and it is a question of what He has in mind in the presentation.

C.H.H. The thought of "living" is to give character to the whole position. The Lord cannot be tied down to a cut-and-dried condition of things.

J.T. Yes. It is over against a dead system of things. In the ministry to the Jewish christians, the idea of living is stressed, because they were surrounded by a dead system as we are now in christendom. You cannot have Christ presenting Himself in the rituals of christendom. You cannot fit a living Christ into any of them. A creed, a prayer-book, religious garments, and other current paraphernalia -- you cannot fit Christ into all that. It is as though He would say, I wish Myself to be seen. Pilate presented Christ to the crowd, saying "Behold the man!" But He was crowned with a crown of thorns, and they had put a purple robe on Him. That was their estimate of Him. We see Him in different garments from those. He would not present Himself that way; He would present Himself to His own as He wishes to be seen by His people.

C.F.I. Might the presentation vary on different occasions?

J.T. The idea of life is to be noted because it is over against a dead system of things. It is a living Christ, but a living Christ presented by Himself. He wants you to see Him in a certain way.

C.F.I. How does that take place? Might there be an indication of the manner in the thanksgiving for the emblems?

J.T. The Lord comes in in His own way. Everything is mediate. He does not come in corporeally. If He comes in He wishes to be understood in a certain way, and especially that it is as living.

A.W. In one place He showed them His hands and His side, and in another His hands and His feet.

J.T. Just so. The one is Luke, the hands and the feet. He is ready to move about and serve -- He supports us in our intelligence and affections -- "His left hand is under my head, And his right hand doth embrace me", as the bride says in the Song of Songs 2:6. That would be John's line. Luke would present

the Lord as using His feet, too. You get this in Revelation. He walks in the midst of the seven golden lamps, but when things are happy and right He would show us that it is a question of reciprocation of affection. John presents this side.

E.W.C. It would not be a mere objective presentation of Himself, but conveyed in the power of the Spirit to the affections of those gathered.

J.T. It is objective in that way. He calls attention to Himself in some way. We are to be alert to discern that.

P.L. It may be an appearing "in another form" as seen in Mark. Love treasures these different forms, and in so doing is ready for the next. They are sovereign.

J.T. Just so. It also involves their feet in Mark 16, because they were travelling into the country, and in our minds we may be. We may, while sitting in the meeting, be occupied with our farms, or cows, or business. The Lord then has to use His feet, so to speak. They went into the country, and He had to go after them. It is not His hands, but His feet in that case, but if it is a question purely of love, it is His hands and His side. His hands embracing us to sustain us in our affections.

P.L. If in love, like Mary, we are pouring the ointment on His feet, our feet will cause Him no concern.

J.T. Just so, certainly there is no concern in the picture in John 12, no concern is expressed because there is no need for it until Judas speaks. It is when a voice like that of Judas is heard in the meeting the Lord has to come in with reproof. He may have to do that any time because the best meeting may have a Judas element. At Bethany everything was in outward order, and yet one brings in a discordant, criticising, withering element, and the Lord rebukes that. So we can never tell what the Lord may have

to do. We cannot say it must be so-and-so, because there may be someone like Judas, and He would have to deal with that element.

J.C. Does it work out through the brethren today?

J.T. It is all mediate now. The Spirit being here makes it possible.

Rem. The man in John 9 had Jesus before him, and we have to know something of that before we can go to Him outside the camp.

J.T. That helps as to what we are saying. It is a question of how the Lord presents Himself. It is in Acts 1 as living after He had suffered; but in John 9 it is as the Son of God. "Dost thou believe on the Son of God?" That is the idea; it is a thought further now.

Ques. Would finding the Lord as His centre make that man an assembly man?

J.T. Yes. I think the culminating point in the instruction is reached in chapter 12.

J.C.S. In presenting Himself living to the affections of the saints, would that have the effect of moving their affections? There would be spiritual emotions.

J.T. If we have an eye for beauty -- for spiritual beauty -- we shall be moved, because that is what David represents in the type. He was ruddy and beautiful, and anyone with an eye for beauty would be moved as seeing Jesus, how He presents Himself.

P.L. God would say, "Arise, anoint him, for this is he".

J.T. Just so, that is the man, not an official, but a delightful man. He must have the pre-eminence.

W.H.W. Does the priest then come in and the saints advance as in Hebrews 8, where it says, "We have such a one high priest".

J.T. That is the next thing. All that we have said really leads up to that, to what "we have". It is a characteristic phrase in Hebrews -- what we

have as enriching us as over against what others have not. We have an altar, we have this great Priest, we have boldness. It is an exclusive thought, and refers to what others have not got. This is the principle, the bearing of the remarks as over against judaism, which existed at the time the epistle was written.

P.L. "We have an altar of which they have no right to eat who serve the tabernacle" (Hebrews 13:10).

W.H.W. That would work out as support for us when we come together.

J.T. People say, 'you are too exclusive'. What we have been speaking of emphasises the principle of exclusiveness; it is a word that belongs to the divine vocabulary, not in a narrow sense, but should be treasured as shutting out man, not shutting out anything of God, but what is of man. The epistle shows how wonderfully furnished we are. The writer says here, "a summary of the things of which we are speaking is, We have such a one high priest who has sat down on the right hand of the throne of the greatness in the heavens; minister of the holy places and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord has pitched, and not man" (Hebrews 8:1, 2). It is not here what God has, but what the saints have. It is in view of the service; the saints are essential to the service.

C.H.H. Does the greatness of the Minister of the sanctuary imply there will be no possible breakdown in the service Godward?

J.T. Quite so. A great Person is presented at the outset, as you will observe; "who being the effulgence of his glory and the expression of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power" (Hebrews 1:3). Such a One as that is a sure guarantee for the maintenance of the service. There is no breakdown possible in it; and how wonderful it is that we can appropriate Christ in this way as

coming in amongst us and making Himself known in our midst! We can appropriate Him and clothe Him and ourselves with all this that is opened up in Hebrews. Approach to God through Christ, He leading in it, is equal to the revelation of God which He has made.

C.H.H. Does that imply that the need of God's heart would be met?

J.T. Quite so. The Lord is great enough to know what is needed divinely, what the Father seeks, and leads us accordingly.

T.B. Will you tell us a little more about "Let my son go, that he may serve me"? Does not worship enter into that, and all you have been speaking of lead on to worship of the Father? If service implies worship, when does that take place? Is it specially after the breaking of bread the Lord leads us?

J.T. Well, I think it is well to get at the concrete thing. Scriptural instruction is usually extended and general, but it is well to come to the concrete thought. In Acts 20:7 Luke says, "we being assembled to break bread". The idea was there, and Paul was present, and a number of brothers present too from different parts of the world, who represented Paul's ministry, and who would be guards of it so that nothing contrary should be there; especially the Berean, who would compare everything with Scripture, to see whether it were so. We are told that Paul discoursed till midnight, though we are not told what he said. What is meant is that we must listen to him first if we are to understand this great matter, for he is heaven's representative in the sense of his having received the ministry of the assembly as well as of the gospel. As the minister of the assembly, he must be heard before we can proceed. I believe that is what is meant, so that in coming together to break bread, we are obliged to take up his thought, as well as the record of the gospels, as to what the Lord

said and did at the institution of the supper. Paul's ministry is the last word from heaven, it is from the Lord directly through him, and the stress is on the "remembrance of me". Paul's account is to be before us, and we must see that there is an act of mind implied. The word "remembrance" here is used only in 1 Corinthians 11:24, Luke 22:19, and Hebrews 10:3. The minds of the saints based on Romans would be renewed minds, so that they have power to call Christ in, to bring Him in, that is, to make a way in the action of their minds, so He has room to come in. He would seize that opportunity and come in. It would be in the breaking of bread, meaning that He would show Himself in that sense as referring to the will of God, and our being a body for that use. So that the obvious impression is that we are to be for the will of God now -- "by which will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all" (Hebrews 10:10). And now we are available to Him, as amongst us. Colossians lays it down as a great general thought amongst the gentiles: "Christ in you the hope of glory". In any circumstances in which that is a concrete fact you may look for glory. Glory is in mind. Though there are things to be dealt with and the Lord will deal with them, yet if conditions are right He will proceed to what He has in mind as the Minister of the sanctuary, and lead on to the service of God. That I think is how the matter stands.

T.B. Are priests the same as sons?

J.T. "That they may serve me as priests", is what God says. Conditions require that the priestly element should be prominent, but the primary thought in God's mind is "sons", that we should be before Him according to Ephesians, "holy and without blame before him in love".

J.C.S. Would Paul's ministry develop that, as beyond that of the twelve?

J.T. Quite so. His is the heavenly side of the truth. He has the last word from the Lord in this matter. We have to listen to Paul. Corinthians is procedure. We go there for it. Here the point is that seeing he speaks so long, there is much to learn from him before you can break bread.

P.L. "Think of what I say, for the Lord will give thee understanding in all things" (2 Timothy 2:7).

J.T. Eutychus did not do that. He is a warning. We must listen to Paul.

E.B.McC. So we have in 1 Corinthians 10 and 11 the lordship and headship of Christ which would help us to proceed.

J.T. In so far as you can put headship into Corinthians. It is the headship over the woman, hardly to the assembly, also Christ as Head over every man. That is the reason why one is slow to say He comes in as Head. He comes in, and thus will deal with what is there. If conditions for headship are not there, He has to help, and He will do what He can for us. We may as well be practical.

J.C.S. I am glad you stressed that. It is a point upon which we want help. There has been an effort to tie the Lord down to coming in in a certain way.

J.T. We are all struggling in this matter. What I observe now is that there is a tendency to leave out hymns. We have a good collection of hymns. The Lord has helped in providing them, and I observe there is a great tendency to use them very little. The Lord loves to hear our voices speaking to Him, but I think He likes music. I know He does, and for music you must have poetry, and for His service you must have spiritual poetry, and God has provided us with it to a very great extent. What the Lord says in Hebrews 2:12, as quoted from Psalm 22 on the cross, ought, I think, to touch our hearts, "in the midst of the assembly will I sing thy praises", not 'speak' but "sing".

J.C. As the sweet Psalmist of Israel He would love music.

J.T. The number of the psalms is remarkable, and in itself educational. There are five books containing one hundred and fifty psalms carefully divided, in which David must have had the leading part.

E.B.McC. Would you say that some of these beautiful hymns to the Lord would come in after the breaking of bread?

J.T. I have no doubt the Lord would help us to tarry there. We should not be too strict in dividing the service up into compartments, but make room for the Lord to come in and show Himself, and see what He may do. We must be attentive, He being there.

P.L. Would the Songs of Degrees suggest that the music would stimulate ascent?

J.T. I think so. Spiritual singing is most glorious to me, not that the speakings to the Lord are not to be desired, "Let me hear thy voice; For sweet is thy voice, and thy countenance is comely" (Song of Songs 2:14); but the general thought of the service of God is song. The Lord indicates this on the cross.

C.A.I. In Matthew after they had sung a hymn they went out. We have thought the hymn after the breaking of bread should be to God.

J.T. No doubt it has reference there to a covenant hymn; possibly Psalm 113 or 114.

C.A.I. Would it be going back to have a hymn to God after the supper and then to the Lord?

J.T. If purely a covenant hymn there is nothing incongruous in speaking to the Mediator after addressing the God of the covenant; but in the family and heavenly position if we get on to that altitude we should stay there, and the Lord is ready to take us there.

P.L. Paul's prayers are to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. He preserves the altitude.

J.T. Yes, and that is what the Minister of the sanctuary would do. He is exalted, He has gone to the highest point. The previous chapter says He has gone beyond all the heavens, so we may leave it with Him; He will go high enough.

E.G.H. It is frequently noticed that a brother will give out a hymn, immediately after the breaking of bread, addressed to the Father, and afterwards we step down.

J.T. Tarrying around the covenant is of great importance. It tends to liberate us and gives the Lord scope as to what He may do. It is just as well not to attempt to go beyond this if there seems no power, but the Lord is great enough to touch us when we least expect it and lead into the family side of things.

Ques. As Minister of the sanctuary does He take us beyond the covenant?

J.T. The sanctuary is a great general thought in Hebrews. Although not called priests, the suggestion is of the sons being brought to glory. I think the sanctuary is a great general thought, having reference to that in which God is approached and worshipped.

C.F.I. Does it cover headship too?

J.T. It would in the fulness of its working. Headship means that the Lord has a body. He is Head of His body, and that implies that the saints are in liberty holding each other in that setting, so that the Lord can proceed with us. As Head, all movement is from Him.

P.L. So the expression in Hebrews, "holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling" would be a body expression.

J.T. I think so.

SANCTIFICATION

Hebrews 13:12 - 14; Hebrews 10:8 - 14; Hebrews 2:11, 12

J.T. What is in mind is to speak of sanctification as seen in this epistle. The word appears in each of these scriptures, and the thought advances from the end of the book towards the beginning, where we have the highest thought of sanctification, that is, in chapter 2. Chapter 13 refers to the sin-offering: "those beasts whose blood is carried as sacrifices for sin into the holy of holies by the high priest, of these the bodies are burned outside the camp. Wherefore also Jesus, that he might sanctify the people by his own blood, suffered without the gate: therefore let us go forth to him without the camp, bearing his reproach". We have sanctification in this passage in a basic sense. The Lord suffered outside the gate as a sacrifice for sin, and the believer is to go correspondingly outside the camp to Him, bearing His reproach. Sanctification thus implies separation from the world, from the religious world particularly. Then we have in chapter 10 sanctification by the will of God, through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all; which enters into our position as partaking of the Lord's supper.

Then the Sanctifier and the sanctified are seen as "all of one" in chapter 2, showing how the saints come to Christ's sanctification and correspondence with Christ as the Sanctifier. If we compare this verse with John 17, we shall see that He is the measure of our sanctification, as glorified in heaven, but this verse in chapter 2 brings us into what corresponds with Him in the sense of order or character of humanity. That is "as he is, we also are in this world" (1 John 4:17), and hence He is not ashamed to call us brethren.

C.A.I. Is progress in the saints in regard to sanctification seen in these scriptures?

J.T. Yes. I think the highest feature is in chapter 2, and it seems to be the climax of the whole book in this sense; the teaching following is to bring us to that in our souls. Hence I suggested the last chapter first because the teaching there as to sanctification is to bring us up to chapter 2. The teaching is not progressive as in some books, but the highest feature is presented first, and then how we reach it in the later instruction.

J.C.S. The first scripture is outside the camp, the second at the brazen altar, and the third in the holiest.

J.T. Yes. The camp is the religious world more particularly, and no one can hope to reach chapter 2 in his soul except by taking, as to that, the outside place. That is what the Lord had in mind -- suffering without the gate. It is the gate of Jerusalem, that is, the gate of the religious world, and the call here is that christians go outside of that camp.

J.C.S. If we are to come into correspondence with the truth, we cannot remain inside. It is imperative that we go outside.

J.T. That is how Hebrews is calculated to help the people of God at the present time; for christianity has become publicly what Judaism was. The religious camp is represented in Jerusalem. Christianity has become that, and the book of Revelation contemplates that the characteristic city of the world is "Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified" (Revelation 11:8). The public setting of the Lord's supper is in Jerusalem; as regards its attitude towards Christ, He suffered there. After He had instituted the Supper, they went to the mount of Olives, but publicly our position as regards the world is Jerusalem, where our Lord was crucified. He is viewed as crucified inside it in Revelation. That

is to show the guilt of the city. In Hebrews 13, it is viewed as the camp out of which the christian must go if he is to have part with Christ. So that what the Lord as the Sanctifier had in mind was to sanctify us by suffering outside. It was no accident; it was deliberate.

J.C.S. Where our Lord was crucified puts that guilt upon Jerusalem.

J.T. That is the thought.

I.L. As we come to that we are prepared to move out.

J.C.S. As far as the position today is concerned, there has been no cancellation of that attitude in regard to Jerusalem.

J.T. We should regard each town in which we may be -- every world city -- as Jerusalem in that sense. It is Sodom and Egypt where also our Lord was crucified.

C.A.I. Is the setting of the Supper in Jerusalem in relation to the upper room?

J.T. That is the next thing. The Lord's supper is not in relation to the city religiously -- it is morally outside, but it is there as a testimony. "Ye announce the death of the Lord, until he come" (1 Corinthians 11:26).

J.M. Are the cities of christendom representative of Jerusalem, morally?

J.T. They have made christianity a worldly religion -- what judaism was. They have gone back to the beggarly elements, thus the position is what it was when the Lord was crucified, and our position is identification with Him. We view it abstractly. It is what it is at heart, if you go the whole way in testing it, it will be found that there is no change in the world; spiritually it is Sodom and Egypt, though not that outwardly perhaps.

J.C.S. Would you say that the saints in going outside the camp publicly and morally reverse the judgment of Jerusalem?

J.T. They do. They are on the side of Christ. When He was on the cross He said, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?" (Mark 15:34). Matthew and Mark give the sin-offering. The enemies thought that He was calling for Elias, they did not understand the words. Then we have the centurion affected by what he saw, and he acknowledges the Lord as the Son of God; that is another thing in that setting. There were those who did not understand what Christ said and they derided Him, saying, "He saved others; himself he cannot save". Then there were those who came with Him from Galilee, certain women, we are told. There were four distinct groups: the Lord's enemies; the centurion and those with him; and the women from Galilee; these latter representing the fellowship, and those who were morally outside the whole scene. Then we have a rich man of Arimathaea, named Joseph, with whom, according to John's gospel, was associated Nicodemus. So that there were four sets of persons all standing in relation to the cross, in relation to Jesus suffering outside the gate. And ever since in this way, there have been persons attached to Him by affection, and also those who are opposed to Him. There are also here persons affected by the testimony, representing the immediate effect of the current work of God. This is seen in the centurion; and then there is a rich man who thinks enough of Christ to bury Him. I think we have in that setting how the matter stands ever since as regards the public position. In Matthew 27:55, 56 there are those whose affections were in action; "there were there many women beholding from afar off, who had followed Jesus from Galilee ministering to him, among whom was Mary of Magdala, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee". So that the question is, To which group do we belong? The group of women would be morally outside -- if not

physically so -- and sanctified in that sense. The others are more distant. The centurion represents the current work of God; he says, "Truly this man was Son of God". Then there are Joseph and Nicodemus; two men in sympathy with Christ and grouped by themselves. The women evidently represent the fellowship -- those who are sanctified.

S.L. "I will not leave you orphans", the Lord says in John 14:18.

J.T. "I am coming to you". Well, that enters into this, but it refers to those outside the camp. That is the position, and that is where we begin this great matter of sanctification. I think Matthew gives us the whole scene -- the circle of those who love Christ, who were morally outside all, as with Him. There were others affected apparently by the testimony, and we are to look out for such. Then there are others who have been affected, but follow at a distance.

J.C.S. Do you regard these persons as representing spiritual elements that are found in the fellowship?

J.T. I think the fellowship is properly in those who came from Galilee. There are those who belong to Christ, like Joseph and Nicodemus, but who serve at a greater distance than those who are in reproach, like the women who followed Jesus from Galilee. But the present position, in a general way, is indicated in those groups. There are those who follow Him from Galilee, and minister to Him. We know that they were attached to Him in affection.

P.L. Would the Lord meeting them in Galilee, according to the next chapter, indicate that what is expressed by Galilee is now to be brought into the dispensation, and the reproach attaching to that, belongs to His lovers?

J.T. Chapter 28 shows that from the administrative side. He begins there. It is the Galileans

characteristically that He identifies Himself with. That is the point; that they are carrying His reproach and know it. They follow from Galilee and share His reproach on the cross -- "bearing his reproach" (Hebrews 13:13). They are seen identified with Him as on the cross.

P.L. "And there were there many women". And then in verse 61 it is said that Mary of Magdala was there and the other Mary sitting opposite the sepulchre. This is the difference; the women survived, so to speak; they are not coming in at the end, but marked by continuance.

J.T. They had followed Him from Galilee. Galilee itself is reproach, but the cross is the extremity, the fulness of reproach, and they are identified with Him there.

J.C.S. We are to regard the women as suggestive of the fellowship, and then Joseph and Nicodemus as on the way to it, and the centurion and those with him as being affected by the testimony that is being rendered.

J.T. Yes. We might introduce Paul's ministry in the centurion's case, because he was a gentile, and recognises the Son of God, though he cannot as yet be regarded as in fellowship. There are many around like this who are believers, but in an isolated way. They are not in the group that came from Galilee.

E.B.McC. Are they like those who remained in the camp?

J.T. Yes. Although believers, they, like Nicodemus in the council, have not gone forth to Christ outside the camp. The Lord's enemies did not understand His language on the cross, and yet He must have spoken with most perfect articulation. He says, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Matthew 27:46). And some of those who stood there, when they heard it, said, This man calls for Elias. And immediately one of

them running and getting a sponge, having filled it with vinegar and fixed it on a reed, gave him to drink. But the rest said, Let be; let us see if Elias comes to save him (Matthew 27:46 - 49). That is, they would utterly misrepresent the Lord, implying that He died as a mere creature, calling on a creature to help Him.

P.L. Is that as the mother of harlots -- calling upon the saints? We have in contrast what is maternal here, two mothers. They would be mothers in Israel, in the possibilities of this Galilean setting -- the mother of James and of Joses, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee.

J.T. Yes. You can see how the Romish system is bound up in this suggestion of calling upon the saints. It is utterly falsifying the whole position, and yet the Lord must have spoken with the most perfect articulation when He said, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" There can be no doubt as to the real words, but they did not take them in, or if they did, they misrepresented Him. The crowd seemed to be carried by the thought; they suggest waiting to see if Elias would come to save Him, which is falsifying the whole position, as I said, and there is much of that around today.

J.C.S. Christendom has misconstrued the Lord's words.

J.T. Corresponding with Matthew's account, who brings in that element at the cross, and then in the next chapter, the Jewish leaders bribe the soldiers to tell lies. All this points to the lying system which falsities christianity.

P.L. Would the fact that the Lord cried with a loud voice -- it does not say what He said -- and "gave up the ghost", involve that "your house is left unto you desolate", as one that is apostate and idolatrous; there is no other word for it but judgment?

J.T. Just so. The second loud voice would possibly allude to the termination of the man who was so incorrigible as seen here. The first is the judgment of God -- "why hast thou forsaken me?" But that in itself did not terminate the man; there must be death, and the second cry is the termination of the man in the Lord's actual death, for "without shedding of blood there is no remission", or atonement. It involves the termination of the man that sinned.

C.F.T. Is that involved in sanctifying the people by His own blood, (Hebrews 13:12)?

J.T. The sin-offering involves both -- both the sins and the sinner. The bodies were burnt without the camp. Sins and sin in the flesh were dealt with in toto.

P.L. Did Paul preaching Christ and Him crucified imply this completeness?

J.T. That is the force of it. He insisted on the truth of the cross. There was the constancy and urgency of it in the testimony at Corinth.

E.B.McC. That brings in the altar of which they who serve the tabernacle have no right to eat; the altar would terminate the man that sinned.

J.T. We have that altar -- true christians have it. It involves all this that we are speaking of.

C.F.I. Sanctification involves not only the Lord's death, but also His present position.

J.T. Yes. It is His present position in glory, not simply Christ risen. "I sanctify myself for them, that they also may be sanctified by truth" (John 17:19), meaning that He is going to set Himself apart in heaven, as the measure of our sanctification.

C.F.I. That group of women from Galilee had been sanctified.

J.T. John says that they were "standing by the cross", as if they were there in relation to it. How

the Lord would think of that, that He would sanctify them by His own blood! He is setting them apart.

C.F.I. They have seen His position in relation to the world, and the world in relation to Him.

C.A.I. Would going without the camp involve identification with Christ, and preparedness to go out of view?

J.T. I think so, especially religiously.

E.B.McC. That would bring us on to chapter 10, the sanctifying involving taking away the first that He might establish the second.

J.T. That is what enters into it, the taking away of the first. The will of God required that; whatever that may be, from our point of view, the first has been taken away.

J.C.S. Sanctification seems to be impregnated with the thought of His own blood, which is a very touching expression.

J.T. "His own blood". You can understand these women as John presents them -- and he alone says that they stood by the cross -- how in later years as the doctrine of it developed, they would speak of this, His own blood. How it would affect them as they looked back on the scene! The impression would be imperishable -- the impression gained as standing by the cross of Jesus.

J.C.S. If this were brought home to our souls in that way, it would move us and give us readiness to come out.

J.T. That is so. What the sin-offering seen in Hebrews 13 implies is the deepest insight we get into the meaning of the death of Christ. In other offerings the blood was not carried inside, it was more its bearing towards the offerer; but the blood carried inside and placed on the mercy-seat means that it is the bearing of it Godward, so that God is appeased. It is the deepest feature of the death of Christ.

J.C.S. God is fully glorified in it.

J.T. Quite so. So that this chapter as bearing on the saints suggests that we have the opportunity of having the deepest understanding of the death of Christ. The more we love Him, the more this would come into view. It is quite scriptural to be occupied with His death. Short of its full meaning, most believers have only a partial view of the death of Christ, but enough to save them. The more we love Him, the more we shall enquire into it. Those who stood by His cross would represent those who enquire into it, and see the full bearing of the sufferings of Christ, that is, the forsaking side. Matthew and Mark give us the forsaking of Christ on the cross.

P.L. Would such entrance into the depths of Christ's sufferings provide the saints with suited emotions with which to enter into the service of God, which is in mind in Hebrews?

J.T. I think so. We are more deeply affected. The more the sufferings are understood, the more effective and richer will be the worship.

P.L. I was thinking of Psalm 22 -- the rich flow of worship from many companies -- where this great theme is presented.

J.T. It is in that connection we have the Lord singing in the midst. It is among those who have searched into the significance of His atoning sufferings. Psalm 22 gives us Christ in the midst singing the praises of God, as if His greatest sufferings enter into that service.

C.A.I. Would there be a connection between the cup as the covenant in His blood, and the blood sanctifying the people?

J.T. There is, the one testifying to the love of God, and the other testifying to His judgment -- suffering outside the gate alluding to the sin-offering; our sanctification involves the fulness of Christ's atoning sufferings. Psalm 22 particularly enters into

the service of God. The Lord says, "And thou art holy, thou that dwellest amid the praises of Israel".

P.L. Would the spring of 'the hind of the morning' be in contrast to the stagnation of the camp?

J.T. You mean the title of the Psalm. That is very good, because the hind is a feminine thought; meaning that the Lord has in His mind, in the depth of His sufferings, the great living results in His saints.

P.L. The hind of the morning would dispose of liturgies and creeds, the paraphernalia of the camp.

J.T. There is no spiritual agility there whatever. The same hymn that was sung three hundred years ago is sung today. There is no spiritual movement at all. The hind of the morning is movement -- spiritual agility in response to the great sufferings Christ endured.

J.C.S. You regard this scripture as the foundation in connection with your preceding thought.

J.T. Yes, it is the foundation of the position. Then the next point is in chapter 10 -- working backwards -- the thought of establishing the second. For, as I said, the second chapter gives the end of our subject; and then how we are brought to it in correspondence with Christ as the Sanctifier. Chapter 10 is the question of the will of God and it lets us into the light of the psalm which speaks about the Lord taking a body. It alludes to the volume of the book, the divine record is there. The Lord had it in mind that the will of God should be carried out, therefore the body was prepared. The Lord's body is the means of our sanctification and necessarily works out in us in one body -- Christ's body as formed of the saints. It is for the will of God. The body of Christ here is for the will of God, and so "we being many are ... one body;" according to Corinthians we are for the will of God. As we partake of the Lord's supper, the principle is that we

are unitedly for the will of God; that is the first thing morally in the assembly. I think if we look into this more we shall understand the Lord's supper better, especially the bread. We are brought into the will of God, and the body viewed in this aspect.

J.C.S. So that He not only died for the will of God, but to secure a company answering to that will, under the idea of the body.

J.T. There is that here which expresses Christ where He was for the will of God; the saints viewed as one body. That is what comes into view in the saints partaking of the bread.

J.C.S. So that in the body of the Lord Jesus here the will of God was carried out in detail, and in the body of Christ formed of the saints there is an answer to that.

J.T. That is the position. As we partake of the Lord's supper there is something here for the will of God, in that certain persons united as an organism are to stand at all costs for the will of God.

P.L. "That ... we should serve him ... in piety and righteousness before him, all our days" (Luke 1:74, 75).

J.T. Quite so. How much is against us! There is persistent influence abroad religiously today, to turn us from that -- from rigid adherence to the will of God. The Lord's supper is to maintain us in that relation and the Lord comes in in that way, "he was made known to them in the breaking of bread" (Luke 24:35), which alludes to His body.

Ques. Would you say a little about being sanctified? It says, "By the which will we are sanctified".

J.T. It is God bringing us into accord with Christ. "Sacrifices and offerings and burnt-offerings and sacrifices for sin thou willedst not;" they did not meet His will, what could they do? they were only types. "But he, having offered one sacrifice for sins, sat down in perpetuity at the right hand of God".

So the Lord says, "thou hast prepared me a body". In it He did the will of God unswervingly, and as in accordance with the will of God, that will is now working in us. "By the which will we have been sanctified". God prepared that body that it might be offered for our sanctification; He will require it, and as we break the bread according to the Lord's example, He shows Himself, the assembly being for the will of God. The Lord's supper is on the line of the will of God.

J.C.S. He shows Himself to persons who are committed to the will of God.

J.T. That is the principle. He will have to rebuke us if we are not on that line.

C.A.I. What is the thought in the will of God? Is it more than the obedience of that Man here in the days of His flesh?

J.T. It is a question of the testimony. The Lord expressed it fully in Gethsemane. "Not my will, but thine". He distinguishes between His will and God's, and that is what He would present to men -- God's will in the testimony.

Ques. Do you think the centurion and others on guard over the body of Jesus were instructed so as to give testimony -- "Truly this man was Son of God"?

J.T. God ordered that they should say that, and so this beautiful testimony appeared. It was the current work of God in relation to what was going on here. It is what He has evoked; something like that may happen at any time. The centurion represents the material God may affect and you can never tell what it may be. The Galilean is going on in his own group and Joseph in his position, but this centurion is an ordinary man of the world, looking after the crucifixion. Yet God evidently affected him, and he makes this confession: "Truly this man was

Son of God". How remarkable that is! And we can look for it always.

The apostle says, "yet shew I unto you a way of more surpassing excellence" (1 Corinthians 12:31), and the women by the cross were in that way of love; it describes our position in fellowship. A man might come into the meeting at Corinth -- it is a public matter, the doors are not locked -- and prophetic ministry is current, and he falls down and says, God is among you of a truth. We can count on that.

C.F.I. Would you say in connection with the bread, there is a vessel secured for the heart of Christ?

J.T. Yes. The assembly is Christ's -- "my assembly". He will use it, not only for Himself, but for God. There is that which His affections have in the saints, He gave Himself for us, but then He will use it for God. It is a question of the will of God.

C.F.I. He delights to give effect to the will of God.

J.T. Hence the anointing alluded to in 1 Corinthians 12, where the saints are viewed as anointed for the will of God. "So also is the Christ".

D.H.R. The Lord was here for the will of God, and He is to have a company here to do the will of God.

J.T. Just as His body was prepared, so we are His body for that purpose. It is the same thought carried through.

J.C.S. All that came out with the Lord Jesus here is to be perpetuated for the will of God.

J.T. Yes, that is the thought, the moral element is in mind. So when He made Himself known to the two in the breaking of bread, what did they do? They saw that the will of God required that they should be at Jerusalem. Probably Emmaus was their home, but the will of God lay in another direction, and immediately they went back to the city.

C.F.I. What do you understand by the sitting down in perpetuity after He had offered one sacrifice?

J.T. That is in keeping with Hebrews. It is to show that the sacrifice of Christ is final, it settles the matter. We are sanctified in perpetuity; there is no change in the position, and that gives us all the more liberty and power to be for Christ, and the will of God here. The basis of sanctification is finished. Then the liberty this affords enables us to have part in the service of God; that we might draw near to God, for that is what the apostle is leading up to in this chapter -- that we might be in liberty in our entering the holiest, as in verse 19.

R.M.D. Is the thought of sacrifice emphasised in chapter 10, and suffering in chapter 13?

J.T. Chapter 10 is to show the stability which the one sacrifice of Christ affords. It is the offering of His body, and this is what links on with the Lord's supper. It brings in the body of Christ for the will of God, and that through that body finality is reached sacrificially. There is no more need to offer in that sense. So that the saints are now free for the will of God, to draw near to Him. Romans 12 works out from this. We present our bodies a living sacrifice. You have a living state of things in the presenting of our bodies.

J.C.S. "That he may establish the second". The thing is established; it is final.

J.T. That is it. To understand this we have to go back to the Old Testament and look into all the 'seconds' -- Jacob instead of Esau; Isaac instead of Ishmael; Ephraim instead of Manasseh; Job's second family instead of the first, and other instances. We have to go through the Bible in order to grasp what is meant by the second being established.

P.L. I wondered whether this sense of stability

would preserve us at the Lord's supper from restless intrusions relating to our sins being put away, and would leave us free, as on this foundation, to go forward in spiritual intelligence.

J.T. Quite so. That is what this chapter leads up to -- "Let us approach". It sets us in motion. We are at liberty now, set up in another Man, not the first. The religious world is on the principle of the first, but God is working on the principle of the second. Partaking of the Lord's supper is an intelligent matter, and we can go forward in liberty, making room for the worship of God. So that the way is said to be a new and living way. That is what we come to, and I believe that if we compare the service of the cathedral with that of christians walking in the light of the assembly, we shall see the new and living way in the latter, and the dead 'first' way which God has left in the former.

J.C.S. So that the second is really established in the assembly.

J.T. Yes. We are free, in the light of this chapter, as we come together; there is nothing in our way, hence we draw near by the new and living way.

Then as regards chapter 2, we are brought into correspondence with Christ as the Sanctifier. Those who are sanctified are one with Him; not only outside the camp; not only in the body for the will of God, but they are of His order, elevated to that dignity. So that "he is not ashamed to call them brethren", and then the writer quotes Psalm 22. It is now on the line of the heavenly; we are His brethren and He can take us, not only into the holiest, but on to the line of the heavenly family.

T.G.McG. That is what has been established in the second family.

J.T. I think that Job helps us as to the second family. It is a remarkable result, worked out in

forty-two chapters. We get the first family in chapter 1 and the second in the last chapter, and the second was established. Figuratively, moral beauty was there -- in the daughters, and their father gave them inheritance among their brethren.

C.F.I. Is there a link here between the covenant and the family thought?

J.T. Yes; but what we are speaking of goes beyond the covenant; it is our laying hold of the fact that "as he is, we also are in this world" (1 John 4:17). We are of His order. The covenant contemplates us here as needing assurance -- perfect love casting out fear -- but now we are on a level with Christ where He regards us as His brethren. We have family status now, and we do not need any assurance as in the covenant. As in the family we do not need any covenant assurance. I think that is what is in mind, because we are all of one with Him. It is not union, but it means that all are the same kind as the Sanctifier. So that He is not ashamed to call us brethren.

Ques. Would it be the same as Aaron and his sons?

J.T. It corresponds, only Aaron and his sons are the priestly family: the thought of God's sons and Christ's brethren goes further.

P.L. Would it be the same as the "much fruit" in John's gospel?

J.T. Yes. The corn of wheat falls into the ground and dies; the fruit is the same as the corn, so that He has His brethren. He recognises them as having family status with Him.

J.C.S. To see it in operation, do you think it carries us outside the limitations of this book?

J.T. It is on a higher level, like the summit of a mountain range, and the epistle generally bears on it. The Lord has not only a people sanctified by His blood, but He has them of His own order of

humanity. The book is to get us on to that line in our minds and affections. The family of God is in mind -- He is bringing many sons to glory.

J.C.S. So that you have no past history on that line?

J.T. As to order, we are the same as Christ, there is no difference in that sense. As He is, so are we.

P. L. Would the first sanctification in chapter 13 involve our going out, the second one our going in, and the third our going up?

J.T. Just so. The heavenly leads us on to Ephesians. So that Ephesians opens not only with the fact that we are blessed, but where we are blessed, that is, in the heavenlies, and we are predestinated unto sonship through Jesus Christ, that we might be before God in love. That is the family side.

C.A.I. Is this the sons brought to glory?

J.T. That is the suggestion in verse 10, "for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory". These verses fill out that, it shows what is in mind. We are being brought to glory.

J.M. You spoke of Job's family. Does the fact that the family was not doubled imply that it was a new family brought in?

J.T. It is a supplanting principle. The same principle is seen in Jacob. In Job's case, the animals were doubled, but not the sons and daughters. The number of persons is the same, but new in character, and as the "second", it is established. This principle works out in every one of our histories.

P.L. And are the daughters now nameable -- they were not so at first?

J.T. Yes. The latter were in the eldest brother's house, that is the "first". In the second family the

daughters are given "inheritance among their brethren".

J.C.S. Is the Minister of the sanctuary concurrent with this?

J.T. Yes; although that thought comes in earlier in assembly service. As seen in the family setting the Lord has us so that He can use us in relation to heaven. It is the heavenly ones. The Lord has us on a level in which He can use us according to God's eternal purpose.

J.C.S. The body is the underlying organism in connection with it.

J.T. Yes. The family line, however, does not imply the body. It is not a question of the body, but of persons in their family dignity: that is, sons of God and brethren of Christ.

PRIESTHOOD IN THE PRESENT DISPENSATION

Leviticus 8:1 - 36

J.T. I have suggested this chapter because I think it gives us a full view of the priesthood as seen and known in the present dispensation. The next chapter shows it in relation to Israel. Aaron and his sons were to remain at the door of the tabernacle for seven days, pointing to a complete period, and what one might expect to find here is that the Lord's personal dignity is provided for. Aaron is anointed before his sons are introduced into the priesthood. It is a very important foundation to have laid in our souls in regard to any relation in which we stand to Christ that His personal dignity is always provided for first. He is anointed alone and that on the ground of His own personal dignity. Hebrews 1 is to establish the personal dignity of the Lord and chapter 2 shows Him on our side as Priest. The earlier part of Leviticus 8 shows the divine thought i.e., that the whole created universe is to be pervaded by the Spirit, and then you have Christ seen in relation to all that. The anointing is a very important principle in this chapter.

Ques. What is the particular thought in priesthood?

J.T. God created a sphere in which He is to be ministered to. God would be ministered to in that sphere by man. The Lord coming into manhood took up that thought, not officially on earth, but in principle; and in the mind of God He was a Priest from the outset.

The tabernacle is a pattern of the whole created sphere, both heaven and earth. You will find in connection with instructions given on the mount, regarding the tabernacle, that God brings in the

thought of the sabbath because the sabbath is the great end God has in view, but how is God to reach it? He reaches it by anointing Christ in that sphere. Priesthood is mediatorial. It contemplates conditions in which certain relationships are more holy than others. That is not what we would call an eternal state of things; it is mediatorial, and it contemplates evil outside. The "true tabernacle" is a spiritual thought; it was pitched at Pentecost, but that was provisional. The assembly goes to her own place and all these thoughts will be reconnected with Israel. Isaac did not pitch a tent for Rebecca; he brought her into his mother Sarah's tent. She was to occupy the ground pending the re-establishment of Israel.

The assembly, viewed in its members in relation to Christ as the true Aaron, is in the sanctuary for the whole period of the dispensation (seven days). It implies that the testimony of God is in our keeping, and in order to keep the charge we need the priestly state. The saints -- the sons of Aaron -- are seen inside with Christ keeping the charge of the Lord.

Ques. What is included in the testimony?

J.T. The testimony embraces all the divine thoughts. Although largely spoken of from the outset, directly and in type, they have taken definite form in Christ, who exemplifies and effects them. God has not withdrawn any thought He has expressed from Adam onwards, and in the assembly every divine thought is cherished. We have this in addition, that we have access to the holiest. The picture here implies access to the holiest -- to all the divine thoughts, and in the assembly all are in safe keeping.

Ques. What is the thought in the command to the priests not to go out of the door of the tabernacle?

J.T. At all times you treasure the divine thoughts. The tabernacle typifies the sphere in which the testimony is set, and whatever question may arise, you think of it in relation to the testimony. Going into the holiest you see the bearing of every divine thought, and keeping the charge is that you maintain what you have the light of in the holiest. The point in priesthood is the efficiency seen in Christ in effecting the will of God; righteousness, holiness, faithfulness, and intelligence, also sympathy with those who are subjects of God's mercy. Priesthood is official. Sonship is the service of affection. Priesthood is continuous during the whole period. You bear in mind at all times that you are under a charge, and the most serious charge that ever was committed to man. Under David you have twenty-four courses of priests, the number standing over against what obtained under Moses. David's economy as outlined in 1 Chronicles is a type of christianity in the sense that a double responsibility attaches to us, the responsibility of two dispensations and that there is ability for it. David did not set aside what Moses established, but he had an economy of his own, adding much to what Moses commanded. The twenty-four elders spoken of in Revelation allude to the twenty-four courses of priests instituted by David. Paul writing to the Corinthians says, "upon whom the ends of the ages are come". All that went before is to be taken up and maintained. When you come to Leviticus 10, two of the priests failed, and were smitten, and you have an additional instruction given: the priests were not to drink wine. The idea of wine in this connection is that which excites the flesh. We must not allow anything that excites the flesh; all is to be pervaded by the Spirit.

Ques. Why were there two high priests in the days of David?

J.T. All that shows that under David everything was subordinate to the will of the king. After the failure of Eli it was said that the priest was to walk before the king (1 Samuel 2:35). The king was to be supreme. Christ is King and Priest. The robing of Aaron and his sons alludes to the way the disciples were brought into priesthood. It is seen first of all in Christ as anointed by the Spirit. All that Christ did had reference to the whole created universe; the saints -- the apostles and others -- were brought into participation of it anticipatively, and finally as the Holy Spirit came.

Ques. Does priesthood go on in the eternal state?

J.T. Priesthood is not a thought we could connect with new creation, but the state which characterises it goes on. Priesthood is necessary where evil is, and while God is rendering testimony.

Ques. Is there the thought of priesthood in what Paul says to Timothy: "The same commit to faithful men"?

J.T. In 2 Timothy the apostle was providing for the testimony. Timothy is a man of God, and that is a different thought from a priest, but what underlies a man of God is the priestly state.

This chapter shows how the priests are consecrated. First, the sin-offering; then the burnt-offering; and then the ram of consecration. A ram is used for the burnt-offering, and also one for the consecration offering. The priests are consecrated in the light of the judgment of sin as before God. We must accept this judgment. What represented the inward excellency of Christ in the sin-offering went up to God, but the carcase was burned without the camp. The burnt-offering is what Christ was in His devotedness to God; and then, the consecration has reference to His ministry. The idea of a ram is maturity. Maturity should mark the priesthood -- "not a novice" -- he is fully developed.

Here the sin-offering is connected with the priesthood only, but in chapter 16 it is connected with the whole universe. Priesthood contemplates a development and growth suitable to God. The connection of the ram is very suggestive; it shows that they were to be in the light of that thought -- the thought of a fully-developed man. The Lord came to do the Father's will. "Lo, I come to do thy will", that is the burnt-offering. But then He was consecrated; He was set apart to the testimony. That is seen in Mark's gospel. The Lord's personal wisdom and affection are engaged in it; it was how He did things; that is the great point in Mark. Luke is the Priest more as meeting human need, sympathy and compassion. You cannot rightly treat of the things of the Lord in ministry apart from the priestly state. Priesthood goes with us in every relationship, verse 23. The blood was put on the tip of the priest's ear, and upon the thumb of his right hand, and upon the great toe of his right foot. In what we listen to, and what we do, and where we go, we have to consider the charge that is laid upon us. In simple christian language, a priest is a spiritual man.

The thought of priesthood extends to every christian and the Spirit is here in order that we might take it up. We have to do the work of a levite and a common person, but the dignity of priesthood runs through all and gives character to everything we touch.

CHRIST IN YOU

Colossians 1:27; Colossians 2:1 - 15

J.T. The teaching of these verses enters into the assembly, the saints' position as together in assembly. The epistle to the Colossians is general in its bearing; it does not deal formally with the saints as together, but the truth in these verses has its most concrete realisation as we are together. It deals with the spiritual side of our position, that in which, I believe, our gatherings are most defective. The order that is proper to the assembly convened is fairly well understood, and this order is included in what the apostle says in Colossians 2:5. He says there, "if indeed in the flesh I am absent, yet I am with you in spirit, rejoicing and seeing your order, and the firmness of your faith in Christ". The verse would cover the general deportment of the saints in Colosse, but it would have its most concrete expression in their assembly gatherings; their order was all that could be desired apparently, as the apostle says, he was not only pleased with it, but rejoiced in it. It was pleasing to him; although he had not been there in the flesh, he was there in spirit. This brings out the more spiritual side of the position.

If we apply the verse to the Lord Himself, it becomes fuller and more applicable as the saints are together in assembly at any time. So that we learn what our order is in His eyes, what joy He has in His people viewed in that way. So that although our assembly meetings may not go beyond this feature, there is something in them for Christ. What I thought we might see in this connection is that this second chapter aims at the more inward privileges that belong to us, as gathered; that we might enter upon them, and that we might see how all that

would hinder us entering upon them is dealt with by God. So that what is to be considered is the more spiritual side of our position, corresponding with what was seen in the forty days in which the Lord appeared to His own before He ascended, after He rose; indeed, these days were for spiritual education. Hence chapter 1: 27 brings out the general position amongst the saints, that is, Christ being in us or among us. This has to be understood spiritually, and I believe that it involves the understanding of the forty days. It is not that He is amongst us corporeally, but still amongst us, and obviously this has the greatest realisation as we are together.

J.C.S. Is it that assembly order, to which you have referred, leads us to a platform where everything expands in a secret or inward spiritual way?

J.T. That is what enters into the passage, I think. The order is one thing -- the public order -- which is delightful to the Lord and to heaven. How we come together; how we sit together, and how things are done generally, but there is what follows on that, and expands beyond what is local.

J.C.S. I think you said that Colossians gives us a sphere -- a general idea of the spiritual order of things -- corresponding to the forty days, but that when we come together in assembly, this takes more definite form.

J.T. Yes; the conditions are then more suitable to it. Paul tells us -- in 1 Corinthians 15:5 - 8 -- that during those forty days and subsequent to them, but particularly during those forty days, the Lord appeared to Cephas and to the twelve, then to five hundred brethren at once; to James, to all the apostles, and to himself. The five hundred brethren at once certainly points to the saints together, and so the twelve, and so "all the apostles". Both sides are presented. Thus I think we may learn that the

saints together in assembly afford the Lord an opportunity of making chapter 1: 27 real to us.

A.M.H. Has "Christ in you" in that sense a double bearing? You might say He dwells in the affections of the saints normally, but when we are together, is He brought into evidence amongst us?

J.T. I thought that. "Christ in you" would mean that He had a place in the affections of the brethren, particularly among the gentiles. It is set here as a mystery; "this mystery among the nations, which is Christ in you the hope of glory". It is spoken of in that way; it alludes evidently to the place He had acquired in that gathering and elsewhere among the nations; He was in their hearts. Of course, that is a general thought, applied normally among christians, that the Lord was always regarded affectionately and reverently, but when we are together in assembly it especially applies. Though that is not treated of in this epistle, the teaching here can be linked up with what is collective. When we come together in assembly, and have what He provided for as a means of calling Him to mind, the truth as it is stated in verse 27, would be more realised than at any other time.

J.C.S. Would it be right to say that a person coming in and sitting down in a back seat would be able to take account of the orderly procedure? But he would not be able to gauge the feelings or the affections of the saints in regard of the Lord Jesus.

J.T. That is right; and it helps as to the position when we are together in assembly. "Christ in you" is amplified as we partake of the Lord's supper. It is amplified in the saints. It is not only that He is in our affections, but that He comes in because of conditions, and is there in a more concrete way than at any other time. Only a spiritual eye can discern that; the ordinary person, as you say, might see and admire the order -- he might be affected by

the assembly order -- but "this mystery" he could not discern.

P.L. Would this be in keeping with the thought in John 14:22? The question is asked as to how the Lord will manifest Himself to them and not to the world.

J.T. That enters into what we are saying. The Lord says, "If any one love me", and then He speaks about the word: "he will keep my word".

Earlier He said, "He that has my commandments and keeps them, he it is that loves me; but he that loves me shall be loved by my Father, and I will love him and will manifest myself to him". But when the question is raised how He manifests Himself to us and not to the world, then the Lord changes from "commandment" to "word". "He will keep my word", and then the Father and the Son come, meaning that the mind of God is understood as to the conditions suited to divine Persons. The commandments would separate us from what is wrong in christendom, but the word would lead us to the inward side of things; what the mind of God is as to conditions suited to Him, and that is beyond the range of the ordinary mind. A passage that helps as to all this is Exodus 24, where we are told that Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel were invited up to the mount, pointing to a realm beyond the natural, where they saw the God of Israel, and what was under His feet.

J.C.S. Would the commandment to which you referred fit in somewhat with the order of 1 Corinthians, and the word with the Colossian point of view?

J.T. The word is more Colossians and Ephesians.

P.L. "Let the word of the Christ dwell in you richly" -- would that link up with it?

J.T. It would. Colossians is an entering epistle, that is, it treats of conditions in us enabling us to

enter on the divine ground, to go over Jordan. Ephesians opens up to us what is beyond. In that epistle you are immediately introduced to the heavenly position, you are blessed "with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies". It is the heavenly position, but Colossians is the entering in, the crossing of the Jordan.

G.C. "Christ in you the hope of glory" would give a totally different outlook from the natural, which would be apprehended only by those who are spiritual.

J.T. I think that helps. "Christ in you" involves that He has a place in our hearts day in and day out, and He gives us to understand that as He is loved by us, there is something beyond. It is not to set us up here where we are, but there is something beyond. That is what the Lord Jesus would do for us, and transferring the thought to the saints, as assembled, the same thing would apply in an increased measure. That is, as He is apprehended in the Supper -- as He comes in -- we realise there is something beyond. He is apprehended in our minds as present and He conveys this. All He says to the disciples in John 13 - 16 has the same thing in mind, that there is something always bearing on what is beyond, what He is going into, and what would be for us there.

J.F.S. Have you in mind that these chapters give us the inward position, as in John?

J.T. They do. Matthew, Mark, and Luke give us the external position -- the actual procedure at the institution of the supper, which John omits. In entering on these chapters John says that it was "before the passover". It is not a question of what happened outwardly in relation to religious dates or observances: that can be noted by the natural eye. This is what is inward. What we are speaking of now is particularly needed. Often as to

the ministry there is the complaint. We do not follow, we do not understand; but the primary concern is that what is said should be the truth. If it is not understood, then it is a question of where we are spiritually. This epistle is to make us spiritual; mainly by presenting Christ in His personal greatness in chapter 1; then to show that He is in our hearts -- He is loved by us -- and that this is mysterious and involves glory -- the hope in our hearts is glory. Then in chapter 2 the things that would hinder us from following on into the glorious realm are dealt with.

P.L. Would chapter 1 be like the ark two thousand cubits distant, emphasising the glory of the Person, and chapter 2 the descent, the way made for Israel through Jordan -- disabilities cleared so that we may go over?

J.T. That is what this epistle teaches. Great things were to happen, Joshua stresses that great things were to happen at that time; and that is where we are defective; we are not on the alert for these great things.

F.S. Is that the thought in the section referred to in John's gospel where the Lord says, "Rise up, let us go hence", the ark is going to move?

J.T. Exactly. That is the end of chapter 14.

J.C.S. Does the breaking of bread prepare the way for this transference to the spiritual or inward situation?

J.T. That is what I think; indeed, there is nothing clearer than that. The breaking of bread is a public matter; it is properly in the wilderness. That has often been asserted, and it cannot be asserted too often; that it is a public matter here, where Christ is not. It is because He is not here that it is celebrated. He, having already a place in a general way in our hearts, seizes the opportunity to come in when our minds are disengaged from all else and

engaged with Him in the memorial. All that happens in our minds. It is not in an external way at all, it is in our minds, and in that way the idea of Christ among us is amplified. If we take the type, Jehovah says to Joshua, "This day will I begin to magnify thee". Christ is magnified amongst us; He becomes greater and greater on these lines, so that He absorbs us and asserts His rights amongst us.

A.M.H. Hence, 'dead and risen with Christ' is true to faith all through the week. Your thought is that there should be a movement on these lines in the power of the Spirit when we are gathered together.

J.T. That is what I thought we might see, that John's gospel shows how an opportunity may be seized, or taken advantage of. As, for instance, Mary of Bethany took advantage of the opportunity to anoint the Lord for His burial some days before He died. This anointing would properly be as He was about to die, but it is as if she realised she might not have an opportunity again, and she seized it, as seen in John 12. I believe the idea may be connected with the Lord Himself, that in His love He takes advantage of an opportunity and the Lord's supper gives Him that. Our minds are disengaged at that time. We are wholly engaged with one thought, that He is not here; and that is why we call Him to mind. There is an action of our minds, and He seizes that opportunity to come in in a way that He has not done ordinarily. Then there is the magnifying, as we are told in the book of Joshua. Whatever the Lord may do as amongst us, we make way for Him. He becomes more and more.

J.C.S. So that spiritually every eye and every heart turn towards Him, and although there is no external appearance, yet very great things are taking place in the affections of the saints.

J.T. Exactly. The religious ceremony called 'holy

communion' is what is external, and nothing else, what can be seen and heard by the natural mind and ear. But in the assembly there is an inward action, calling the Lord to mind, and an understanding and realisation of His presence: that is what is stressed here. "This mystery", the apostle says, is "Christ in you the hope of glory".

E.B.McC. Would you say that He had become magnified to the apostle so that he announces Him; "admonishing every man, and teaching every man, in all wisdom, to the end that we may present every man perfect in Christ"?

J.T. Yes. You can see how He was magnified in the apostle's mind in writing the letter. When he comes to chapter 2, he is greatly impressed with what he had in mind, saying, "I would have you know what combat I have for you, and those in Laodicea, and as many as have not seen my face in flesh; to the end that their hearts may be encouraged, being united together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the full knowledge of the mystery of God; in which are hid all the treasures of wisdom and of knowledge". This is a passage that requires special attention, because it is really preparatory to what we are speaking of -- the saints are to be knit together in love.

J.C.S. "Knit together in love". Does that supply the conditions necessary for the Lord to present Himself to us in this way?

J.T. In 1 Corinthians we have the order as to the Lord's supper, and the order of ministry in chapter 12. Then it comes to love and the apostle speaks about showing it. "Yet shew I unto you a way of more surpassing excellence". It was not there, so he had to describe it, but he does not do that here. Evidently there was a better state at Colosse, and he presses that what they understood might apply in increased measure. Indeed, they had love for "all

the saints", and they had "love in the Spirit". So that the thing was known there, he did not need to describe it, as he did to the Corinthians, but his prayer was that it should increase, that locally they should be united together in it.

P.L. Does the Lord crown the teaching of chapters 13- 16 of John with a prayer in chapter 17, after the order of Paul's here: "That they all may be one"?

J.T. That is the same thought; "knit together in love" is constructive. The loaf denotes that we are "one body", for all are partakers. What we do is to remind us of what we are to one another; and it is a great thing to take up that attitude, as we sit together in partaking of the Lord's supper.

G.C. These are the conditions that are inviting to the Lord, and from which He would not stay away.

J.T. You may be sure that He will come. That is just the point to reach -- what He will do and He will not do.

A.M.H. Is there a rising note in the understanding of the mystery of God?

J.T. I should think so. "Unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the full knowledge of the mystery of God". The idea is advance in riches, in full knowledge, as if conditions now were such that he could bring this forward. There is full assurance of understanding to the full knowledge of the mystery of God.

A.M.H. I was wondering whether that was necessary for the proper development of what you have before you -- not only Christ loved in our hearts and our being knit together, but the knowledge of the mystery of God, what God would have us know of Himself. Then there is more for the Lord to operate upon, for not only is Christ brought into

evidence amongst us, but God Himself would become very great to us, would He not?

J.T. And then the mystery of God. The mysterious side of christianity is much spoken of in Scripture, and yet, speaking for oneself, how little it is known and taken in! Here it is the mystery of God.

C.C.C. A practical point of importance, if one gathers something of what is in your mind, is that the order of the Lord's supper may be proceeding in a defined way that is right, but a certain spiritual sensitiveness may be absent, which if present, would have made room for the movements of the Lord and His disclosures, and thus the best is lost from the occasion.

J.T. That is right. We should not minimise the early part of the meeting. The assembly is so pleasing to the Lord. "My assembly" -- the very initial thoughts of it are pleasing to Him. As spiritually one approached the tabernacle from the wilderness, one would note that the camps were all apart at respectful reverential distances. As one looked out on, or approached, the tabernacle with a spiritual eye, one would be affected. And the Lord is affected as He sees the idea of the assembly taking form even in its public character. I believe from the time when we begin to move from our houses, the Holy Spirit would serve us in that very connection in "the anointing". All is to be in holy dignity as we move forward to come together in assembly. It is all pleasing to the Lord, but more particularly when we sit down. It is attractive to Him, even the order of it. I believe that the loaves -- the shew-bread in the types -- indicate how He looks at it. In Exodus it is the "bread of the presence", not so much the order, as the presence of the saints in their position inside, so that God sees them. In Leviticus, the loaves are set in rows -- six in a row -- anointed

with frankincense and always, as it were, fresh, for the loaves were removed every sabbath by Aaron, and I think that is what is alluded to in this chapter. The order of the saints, as meeting together, not only because it is the right thing to do, but because we are united in love. That is, it is a living state of things; Christ in us, delightful to the eye of God, and that is what is alluded to in verse 5. Then there is the more inward side of things, the apprehension of what is wholly spiritual. So that we have Christ presented to us here as the One in whom all the fulness of the Godhead dwells bodily. Then it says, "ye are complete in him, who is the head of all principality and authority". These are all great spiritual thoughts and the understanding of them is open to us. The type says, Jehovah magnified Joshua. This helps as to what is before us. So in the assembly, as we go through and the time has come to disperse, Christ is greater in our eyes, and we feel spiritually greater. We feel we have had to do with wonderful things and are enlarged; it is not only a question of order, but of what we see inwardly.

J.C.S. You have spoken of spiritual emotions; would you connect that idea with the inward side, the influence of all the wealth upon our spirits?

J.T. Well, the Psalms help us as to worshippers, how the psalmist regarded what was inside; what a day in the courts of God was; what the sanctuaries were, as Asaph speaks of them! These things are written for us, to impress us with what is available to us, so that in assembly we get the good of them; and not only that, but we are enriched, able to worship, able to take part in what the Lord has in His mind. The fact that He is stated to be Head of all principality and power is a great thought. It is not that this is to be operative in the assembly, but in chapter 1 He is Head of the assembly, and this

feature becomes operative, as we are in assembly.

J.C.S. Is it to emphasise the greatness of the Person who comes in, that He is spoken of as Head of all authority?

J.T. Yes, it is how Christ enters into the position. Whatever magnifies Him in our minds is to subdue and enlarge us.

P.L. Such an expression affords spiritual latitude therefore to dwell upon His glories and greatness in infinite variety.

J.T. I think that is what is meant in Joshua being magnified.

E.B. Do you mean variety on any given occasion or on successive occasions? I just ask because we have been accustomed to the thought that it was necessary to see in what particular character the Lord would present Himself and follow that up.

J.T. Yes. If He has to attend to any conditions amongst us that are contrary to the occasion, then it is not so much a question of magnifying Him, but of His service, and He is ready to serve us. But then the Spirit of God would bring in thoughts of Him, all to magnify Him in our eyes and to displace ourselves and any thoughts we may have that might hinder; so that you see it is all a question of Christ; what He leads to. We find that in the type, the whole twelve tribes are in mind -- an important matter, that we are not unduly local. Whilst the bread may denote our local units, it also denotes the unity of the saints on earth and I believe that is what is meant in the type; the twelve must be there. The two and a half tribes did not go over, as all the other tribes did, but they went over representatively in the forty thousand warriors, and they are mentioned as they pass over. There must be the whole thought of God in our minds.

G.C. "In him dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily". Such an expression makes Christ very

great to our hearts and outside of Him there is nothing for the saints. All these things are brought within our range in that Person.

J.T. That is exactly what is stated, so as to shut out any thought of mentality, or rhetoric, or music, in a fleshly way, or ceremonialism; philosophy, too, is mentioned here. All these things are shut out, so that there is nothing to mar the occasion. The Lord is free to move according to His own mind. All these things are dealt with effectually.

J.F.S. That would lead us on to what we have in chapter 3: 11 -- "Christ is everything, and in all".

J.T. That is in relation to the new man. Here it is the fulness of the Godhead dwelling in Christ bodily; that is, within our range. And then as to ourselves, we are "complete in him". He is on our side, so there is nothing lacking in the position.

J.C.S. Does that refer to the assembly -- "complete in him"?

J.T. It means that we are full -- 'filled full', as in the margin. There is nothing lacking in Him, so that all ceremonialism and philosophy is shut out as unnecessary -- not only as evil, but it is unnecessary. There is no need for it.

A.M.H. It is coupled with circumcisions is it not? If we are "complete in him", I suppose we must accept the other side -- the circumcision.

J.T. That is right, the putting off the body of flesh -- the totality of it in the circumcision of Christ. So that in the type in Joshua, we come on to what we have been saying, we come to chapters 3 and 4 -- the stones in Gilgal -- and then circumcision in chapter 5.

S.F. Would this teaching preserve the saints from being beguiled by what is of man, and hence detrimental to christianity proper?

J.T. That is the intent, and of course the teaching has its application to us in our general position, in

our every-day position, but it has peculiar force when we are together, because these things viewed in that way in our minds would interfere with the service.

F.S. Is the body of flesh the full range of things in which the flesh finds its life?

J.T. I think it is more the flesh itself as a power, if allowed. Philosophy and vain deceit allow the flesh, whereas in the circumcision of Christ it is put off as before God.

J.C.S. We have "the body of his flesh" in the former chapters.

J.T. Here it is the body of the flesh, the totality of it -- the body means the whole thing. It is the flesh in me, here the power that works religiously, or philosophically. It is the flesh in these settings, but it is the totality of it.

F.S. There is nothing of it that is worth keeping.

J.T. Well, exactly, and it is what is evil, too. God has dealt with it effectively in the circumcision of Christ. The type of course, helps us, because the sharp knives are to show that the thing is thoroughly dealt with, there is the rolling away of the reproach of Egypt. Then what comes into view is the old corn, which means that we are now moving on to Christ. Not the Christ who was here -- the same Person, of course, but in another condition. It is Christ, according to the type in Joshua, as indigenous to heaven. It is Christ as He is up there, not simply as He was during the forty days, but as He is up there -- that is, the old corn -- what is there.

E.B. What distinction would you make between Christ as up there, and what He was during the forty days?

J.T. What He was during the forty days was educational; it was not final. It is the same Christ, personally, "the same yesterday, and today, and to

the ages to come" (Hebrews 13:8), as to His Person. But as to His condition, there are variations, and we have to make room for Christ in glory -- glorified Christ. So that Philippians speaks of "his body of glory" -- we are to be conformed to His body of glory.

J.C.S. Would the old corn of the land embrace the idea of eternal purpose?

J.T. Yes. It is indigenous to heaven. The old corn means the stored corn, it is presented in that way, Christ as food, but Christ as there already. Not the manna, "the manna ceased", we are told. Nor is it the shew-bread, which was for the priests. It is Christ as food for heavenly people, that we may be sustained up there. Think of the greatness of that thought, that you can be sustained up there! You are equal to the place, the food sustaining you in it.