Pages 1 - 269 -- "Readings on Ezekiel". Notes of Readings in New York, 1939 (Volume 146).

READINGS ON EZEKIEL (1)

Ezekiel 1:1 - 28; Ezekiel 2:1 - 4; Ezekiel 3:22 - 27

J.T. What is in mind this evening, in commencing to read the book of Ezekiel, is to show the character of the prophet's gift and of his mission.

The chapters from which we have read are introductory. It will be necessary for us in pursuing our subject to keep in mind the description of the living creatures; for it presents much detail, which will only be intelligible to us as we consider the scenes presented in this wonderful book. Dates have a great place in this book; we read in verse 1: "Now it came to pass in the thirtieth year, in the fourth month, on the fifth of the month" Ezekiel 1:1, and then in verse 2 it says, "it was the fifth year of king Jehoiachin's captivity" Ezekiel 1:2. These two dates are to be understood, if we are to see how ministry is to be prospered, for it is the prophet's ministry which will come before us. The first date, the thirtieth year, according to a backward computation of the reigns of various kings, alludes to Josiah's reign, and more specifically to the year in which he held the passover -- the eighteenth year of his reign -- and it is evidently implied here that Ezekiel had that in mind; a time of revival and prosperity amongst the saints.

And then the reference to Jehoiachin's captivity, of course, suggests the adverse side. It is a humiliating thought, reminding us of failure and the awful state of the people. Those two things are necessary in the servant's soul; the idea of a revival as in Josiah's day, thirty years before, and then the sorrowful failure of his family; for Jehoiachin, a grandson of Josiah, is here referred to as in captivity, having been captive for five years when this vision was seen by Ezekiel.

W.R. One who was faithful to God and to man is referred to here as priest; not as prophet. His priesthood is emphasised.

J.T. It is not simply a priest but the priest. "The word of Jehovah came expressly unto Ezekiel the priest" (Ezekiel 1:3). It was characteristic of him. Now, as remarked, the thirtieth year alludes to the lapse of time since the year of Josiah's passover, which was a landmark in Israel (see 2 Chronicles 35). Computing the different periods given, you reach back to that year; the eighteenth year of Josiah's reign, a point of great significance as a revival. There had been no passover like it from the days of Samuel. That God gives such occasions as that would be a matter of positive importance to the soul of the prophet in his ministry. A minister ought to have that in mind in his service, for God can cause it to recur. The other date is sorrowful: one of Josiah's family had failed, and was a captive. That a king of Judah should be in captivity was indeed a sorrowful matter.

A.B.P. Do you suggest that in Ezekiel's mind the time dates from the passover?

J.T. Evidently. We do not know if there was any other incident in Ezekiel's mind, but we do know it refers to that year, a most important year in Israel's history. We can understand that a man like Ezekiel would have it in his mind, as we have the beginning of the great revival in our day, in our minds. But then there are sorrowful things that have happened during the last hundred years that we have to remember, too. The date of Josiah's passover is carefully given both in 2 Kings and 2 Chronicles.

C.A.M. Would these two happenings synchronise? Would one be seen as from God's side, in blessing, and then would the other be governmental?

J.T. Yes, thirty years back, and five years back. The five years refer to what is humiliating; the captivity of one of the kings of Judah. I think in that way dates are especially important for those who are serving; that

is, what has happened in the history of God's people must be kept continually in mind.

C.A.M. Would the first date give a sort of impetus to the ministry?

J.T. Yes. And the second date would challenge us as to whether we are in captivity or whether we are going on in the energy of revival, looking for another, or looking for the maintenance, to the end, of that which God has recovered.

J.H.E. The second date is in a parenthesis, as if it were added in a secondary way to strengthen the thought of date.

J.T. It was thirty years from one date and five years from the other; so that Jehoiachin was taken in captivity twenty-five years after the first date.

A.B.P. Does the reference to Jehoiachin indicate that the ministry of Jeremiah had been refused?

J.T. Yes. Jeremiah's ministry in that period was at Jerusalem. Ezekiel is ministering away in the east at the river Chebar, where the people had been taken.

Ques. Is it right to say that in relation to ministry we have what is substantial to look back to, as well as what God may disclose to us in the midst of difficulty, such as the "visions of God" here?

J.T. Quite so; the two dates we have referred to would be in the prophet's mind, but now there is something fresh coming in on this particular date; the heavens are opened. What stimulation there is in that! Ezekiel says, "the heavens were opened, and I saw visions of God. On the fifth of the month, (it was the fifth year of king Jehoiachin's captivity,) the word of Jehovah came expressly unto Ezekiel the priest, the son of Buzi, in the land of the Chaldeans by the river Chebar" (Ezekiel 1:1 - 3). God is operating now far away from Jerusalem, following up the captives, and a greater thing happens here than perhaps we can find elsewhere in the prophets: the heavens were opened.

Ques. Do you connect that in any way with matters being directed from heaven? In Revelation 2 and 3 the position would seem to be heavenly, although what is seen is on earth. The Lord is really in charge of the matter, whether on earth or as directing from heaven.

J.T. Yes; the heavens are opened; heaven is intervening now. Influence no longer emanates from Jerusalem; it is from heaven. So the scene corresponds with incidents in the New Testament: what happened at the banks of the Jordan, and particularly at the death of Stephen, who beheld the heavens opened. The Son of man was operating from heaven instead of from Jerusalem.

A.N.W. There are the "visions of God" and "the word of Jehovah". The "visions of God" seem to be connected with Josiah, and "the word of Jehovah" with Jehoiachin, are they not?

J.T. Yes; the expression, "visions of God" appears in verse 1; but "the word of Jehovah came expressly unto Ezekiel" appears in verse 3. The latter is what he is going to say. We need not say everything that we see, but the word of Jehovah is urgent. The vision is not said to be express, but "the word" is. It is a message. You may ponder over and enjoy what you see; it may build you up; but the message is express, as it says, "the word of Jehovah came expressly" Ezekiel 1:3.

A.R.S. Is this not very similar to the circumstances surrounding John's being at Patmos? Ezekiel is a captive by the river Chebar, and John was a captive in Patmos; also, John was called up to heaven, and Ezekiel sees the heavens opened as he remains on the earth.

J.T. Quite so; there is a correspondence, I am sure, particularly with chapter 4 of Revelation. The Son of man is seen on earth among the candlesticks in chapter 1 of that book; in chapters 2 and 3 it is "the things that are" (that is the church period), "and the things that are about to be after these" Revelation 1:19 would refer to

chapter 4. The scene of operation is transferred to heaven, so John is caught up to heaven. We do not get that kind of thing here in Ezekiel, but rather a great system portrayed for us, which God has ordered for the maintenance of His government, Jerusalem having failed Him. Although the house of David has failed Him, He has this wonderful array of power among the gentiles; hence, it is the Son of man that is in mind; Christ in relation to the nations.

A.R.S. Why is the first date connected with the reign of Josiah, for Ezekiel at this time was amongst the captives at the river Chebar?

J.T. Well, we might go back in our thoughts to what happened in Ireland over a hundred years ago and recognise how God brought about such wonderful recovery; but then, we may be in captivity now. The position is different, and it is humiliating. For, in Ezekiel's day, one of the kings of Judah was in captivity, and he refers to that also in mentioning dates.

J.S. Going back a hundred years, we find most of the people of God in captivity, but a remnant was delivered, would you say?

J.T. Quite so.

B. Your reference to Ezekiel and the word coming expressly to him is like what is said of the apostle Paul. The men that were with him at the time of his conversion saw the light, but they "heard not the voice of him that was speaking to me", Acts 22:9. Paul could record exactly what he heard in the message.

J.T. Quite so. In Acts 9:7, it is said they heard the voice, but that would be in the sense of 'sound' as the margin reads. Saul heard words: he heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why dost thou persecute me?"

W.S.S. Would the second date given suggest the moral conditions that obtained at the time Ezekiel ministered? Reference has been made to the refusal of Jeremiah's prophecy. Ezekiel evidently was one who

had accepted it, and in those deplorable moral conditions there was this priest to whom the word of God came expressly. Is it not an encouragement to us at the present time that there are still possibilities?

J.T. Quite so; you would want to be a priest so that God could trust you with a message. The apostle Paul says, "the Spirit speaks expressly", 1 Timothy 4:1. It is an urgent matter. You want to be available to the Lord, and I believe that is the force of the expression "Ezekiel the priest". Jeremiah was one of the priests, but Ezekiel is a distinctive priest, evidently characteristically so, so that God can trust him with this message.

The nearer we get to the beginning of that thirty years, the brighter things will be found to be. Ezekiel was reverting to a brighter period. Whether or not he had part in it we cannot definitely say; but it would recall the blessed time they had in the days of Josiah. One can understand how a priest of God would revert to such a time as that. Why not have times like it again?

Ques. Will you say something more about the vision in contrast to speaking?

J.T. Well, what you see is one thing; what you say is another. Take Stephen, for instance. We are told that he saw the glory of God and Jesus, but he does not say that. He says, "Lo, I behold the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing at the right hand of God", Acts 7:56. The account of the Spirit of God in verse 55 is: "But being full of the Holy Spirit, having fixed his eyes on heaven, he saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God" Acts 7:55, but when Stephen spoke in testimony he called Him "Son of man". The time had come to announce the truth as to the Lord's position as the Son of man, which is a wider thought of Christ; His operations would now extend out to the whole race of man. So that the servant does not always say just what he sees. The levitical touch means that I know what to say. You find it constantly in Scripture with servants of God.

They see something and then present in testimony what is suitable at the moment.

Ques. Paul also, in Acts 9, saw a vision. The Lord said to Ananias, "behold, he is praying, and has seen in a vision a man" Acts 9:12. Is there any suggestion in the introduction of vision there of the setting aside of the speaking at Jerusalem?

J.T. The vision in Saul's case was Ananias coming in and putting his hands on him. In our chapter, Ezekiel says, "the heavens were opened, and I saw visions of God" Ezekiel 1:1. Then we have the description of what he saw, and in order to grasp this we have to look over the chapter carefully. He says: "And I looked, and behold, a stormy wind came out of the north, a great cloud, and a fire infolding itself, and a brightness was about it, and out of the midst thereof as the look of glowing brass, out of the midst of the fire. Also out of the midst thereof, the likeness of four living creatures. And this was their appearance: they had the likeness of a man. And every one had four faces, and every one of them had four wings. And their feet were straight feet; and the sole of their feet was like the sole of a calf's foot; and they sparkled as the look of burnished brass. And they had the hands of a man under their wings on their four sides; and they four had their faces and their wings: their wings were joined one to another; they turned not when they went; they went every one straight forward. And the likeness of their faces was the face of a man; and they four had the face of a lion on the right side; and they four had the face of an ox on the left side; they four had also the face of an eagle. And their faces and their wings were parted above; two wings of every one were joined one to another, and two covered their bodies. And they went every one straight forward: whither the Spirit was to go, they went; they turned not when they went" (Ezekiel 1:4 - 12).

It will be helpful for all, I think, to see that the general appearance of this great array is the appearance

of a man. It is not the presentation of the beasts, but it is a question of man. There are the four heads of creation, but the general appearance has the likeness of a man. And then there is a man's hand, and then the likeness of their faces was the face of a man. These three items help us to understand what is in mind; that they are not heartless, like the beasts of the gentile monarchies. Man is the characterising thought in them. The idea of "man" runs right through, both as to their general appearance and their faces and then the operative part -- the hands -- were the hands of a man. All is human.

J.S. Is this array of power in the living creatures connected with the movement of testimony from Jerusalem to Chaldea?

J.T. That is the thought; God has this immense power among the gentiles, and He is bringing Ezekiel into it. It is to give character to Ezekiel's prophecy, as I hope we shall see as we go through the book. The "man" runs through the governmental dealings of God. The gentile monarchies are likened to beasts, but here the characterising feature is man. There is sympathy for men in it.

A.F.M. Does it suggest special regard for men in contrast to the dealings of God with Israel? Israel was set aside, and now in the Son of man, God acts in affection towards recovery in the race of men.

J.T. Of course sympathetic consideration marked God's dealings with Israel too. But here the threefold allusion to man is striking. Then finally a Man on the throne; supreme authority above is in Man. The first part of the description runs on to verse 12, where we have the living creatures and their wings moving with the Spirit. And then the general operative power in verses 13 and 14; there is no idea of presenting concreteness here. These are symbols; hence the frequency of the words "likeness" and "appearance". The intent is to impress our minds with the ideas

suggested. It is really what marks the agencies of the government of God. The operative part is most energetic and rapid and characterised by fire. And then we have, from verse 15 to the end of verse 21, the idea of wheels and unity in the movement, and the same spirit was in the wheels and in the living creature, and they all moved together; the wheels allude to the contact with the earth. This government makes contact with the earth, because wheels have to do with solid earth. And then, in verse 22, we have an expanse or firmament over the heads of the living creature, and above that expanse, a throne (verse 26). The whole domain of God's operations would be suggested; the wheels on the earth, and then the expanse above, which has the look of a "terrible crystal", so that we are impressed with the majesty of God, and the greatness, the incomprehensibleness of the means and sphere of His government. It is intended to subdue us and cause us to fear Him in all this. Then, over this, the throne, as it says: "And above the expanse that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone; and upon the likeness of the throne was a likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it. And I saw as the look of glowing brass, as the appearance of fire, within it round about; from the appearance of his loins and upward, and from the appearance of his loins and downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness round about. As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of Jehovah. And when I saw, I fell on my face, and I heard a voice of one that spoke" (verses 26 - 28).

The prophet is brought into all this, and he is engaged and hears a voice. It is all to prepare him for his mission.

Rem. This would be a presentation of Christ?

J.T. Quite so; it is Christ, only here He is on the throne as a Man with affections -- the appearance of

the loins upward and downward carrying through the thought of man in the entire presentation of the matter.

Rem. John, beholding Jesus as He walked, testified to Him as the Son of God; whereas Ezekiel here, was a witness of Him in the character of Son of man.

J.T. Exactly; Ezekiel now would be able to speak about what he saw. He would speak about Him, but, of course, under the limitations of Old Testament times (see 1 Peter 1:10 - 12).

J.S. In chapter 1, Ezekiel is introduced as priest, yet spoken to as son of man in chapter 2.

J.T. Yes; he is to embody the spirit of all this. That is the idea of the recurrence of the words "likeness" and "appearance", showing the formation of the prophet, especially in his intelligence, so that he could convey what God had in His mind.

J.S. It fits in remarkably with Stephen's experience in Acts 7, as you have already mentioned.

C.A.M. This likeness of man (verses 4 - 12), would have the effect of focusing our attention on man in relation to the whole realm of creation. This gives a sort of key thought; that God's thoughts centre in manhood.

J.T. Quite so; Ezekiel is to be impressed with man now, instead of with Israel alone; that God has man in His mind.

F.H.L. Is that the reason for emphasis of the number four?

J.T. I think so; it suggests what is universal.

Ques. If we are to be workers together with God, we must understand how God operates -- everything in all -- and is this the vision of it?

J.T. It is to impress the servant with what God has in His mind. God is imparting what is in His mind, but it is conveyed by means of symbols. They are not concrete things, but appearing things that are wholly symbolic.

Ques. Is there sufficient representation in these symbols, if properly understood, to provide for everything connected with government?

J.T. Exactly; you feel that things will be done, and done quickly -- drastically when necessary -- but all the time you are impressed with the idea of man. And then, I think the reference to the voice from above the expanse that was over the heads of the creatures is very beautiful. Verse 24 says, "when they stood, they let down their wings" Ezekiel 1:24, then in verse 25 after the voice is mentioned it says again, "When they stood, they let down their wings" Ezekiel 1:25. These two statements are the same, but a voice comes between them. The repetition is of something that is to be taken into our souls; their wings are their locomotive power, but they have let them down. I believe the allusion is, that as having part in this great service, we are to be humble and let down our wings -- to stand at attention. Let us be available and ready to be detained before God, and then we shall hear something. We are not told what the voice said, but we have the suggestion that in letting down our wings, there is a voice. The servant is to be exercised in godly fear; he is to be reverential. If one has gift and power in ministry, he is apt to go on in that, and forget to let down his wings to be detained before God. After all, it is that "the surpassingness of the power may be of God, and not from us", 2 Corinthians 4:7. And so there is the voice. We must get communications from heaven.

W.S.S. Would you say Paul let down his wings at Corinth? He was with them "in weakness and in fear and in much trembling", 1 Corinthians 2:3.

J.T. Yes; you feel the necessity for this in your ministry; that you hear the voice, for you need a fresh communication from the Lord in serving. The repetition of the letting down of the wings is to stress the idea of humility. The wings are prominent and they make a tremendous noise. We are apt to think of the

noise we are making, but that is not the end in view. In service we need to let down the wings, be quiet and listen to God, so that there will be a voice. I think that is seen at the banks of the Jordan in the blessed humiliation of Christ. How lowly He was! And then as He went up from the Jordan and was praying, there was a voice from heaven: "Thou art my beloved Son, in thee I have found my delight", Luke 3:21,22. There is a voice; and that is what we need in our ministry.

W.S.S. There seems to be a resemblance in the opening of Ezekiel, as has already been remarked, to the opening of John's gospel. "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we have contemplated his glory)" (John 1:14), as if in a day of departure such as Ezekiel's and John's day, there is to be the light of the glory of Christ's Person.

J.T. Yes; the voice is referred to here, and then the glory of the Lord on the throne in the next section -- the likeness of a throne -- but it is above this terrible crystal-like expanse; so that this is an elevated view which would stress the greatness of Christ in the government of God. There is "the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone; and upon the likeness of the throne was a likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it" (Ezekiel 1:26). As our minds absorb these great thoughts, Christ becomes greater and greater to us. This array of power in the creatures is below the firmament, but He is above it. The firmament is a great thing in itself. The difference between what is below and what is above is pronounced. It is as the look of the terrible crystal, which suggests that we are to be subdued and feel that we have to do with God in these matters, for it is a divine Person who sits on the throne. Our attention being called to the "loins" would point to the fact that although He is so great and glorious above, He has feelings and affections in relation to men.

J.S. Would the introduction of glowing brass and fire call attention to the need for self-judgment on our part?

J.T. I think so. You feel how drastic the means are in this array of governmental power.

J.T.Jr. Do you think that David, when he went in and sat before the Lord, would be subdued by it, and like the living creatures, there would be a letting down of his wings, and then taking account of all the greatness that was inside?

J.T. That is a good illustration; and what wonderful thoughts came into his mind about God!

W.B-w. It says their feet were straight feet. Does that mean that the ministers are to be guarded as to their feet and pathway as they serve?

J.T. Quite so.

Ques What relation has the movement of the wheels to the movement of the wings?

J.T. It is one great system. The wings appear to be the locomotive power; they make a great noise. It says, "And when they went, I heard the noise of their wings, like the noise of great waters, as the voice of the Almighty, a tumultuous noise, as the noise of a host: when they stood, they let down their wings" (Ezekiel 1:24). The initial apostolic power, for instance, was very great, and everybody's attention was called to the testimony, but then in letting down of the wings there was reverence and lowliness marking the apostles, and then other communications followed.

J.S. Would the wings be for movement in the air, and the wheels for movement on the earth?

J.T. Yes; there is power to mount up, but then there is contact with the earth; the government is heavenly, but there is contact here below.

F.H.L. Should we not be impressed with the idea of going "straight forward", also of being "lifted up"?

J.T. Quite so. Both these thoughts were exemplified in Christ.

W.R. Psalm 19:1 says, "The heavens declare the glory of God; and the expanse sheweth the work of his hands".

J.T. That is the testimony in the heavens; it is always there. But here we have what is most extraordinary, and yet the prophet is to absorb it all into his soul; you get the idea of eating at the end of chapter 2, the idea of appropriation and assimilation of certain things. In the section, verses 26 - 28, our minds are focused on the appearance of Man on a throne; and it is said to be the appearance of the likeness of the glory of Jehovah, and the prophet says, "And when I saw, I fell on my face" (Ezekiel 1:28). He is deeply affected by it. He is now, as it were, qualified for his service.

A.F.M. The introductory part of this book would be preparatory for Ezekiel. All these great things coming before him so affected him that he fell on his face. And then in the next chapter the Spirit entered into him, when Jehovah spoke to him, and set him upon his feet.

J.T. He is now qualified, falling on his face, showing how humble and reverential he was. He says, "This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of Jehovah" Ezekiel 1:28; that is, he puts it all into a few words. He understands that it is the glory of Jehovah in relation to His government here. "And when I saw, I fell on my face, and I heard a voice of one that spoke". Ezekiel 1:28. This sentence directs us back to the idea of "voice". He is now qualified through the vision, and he is getting communications. So the next thing is, "he said unto me, Son of man, stand upon thy feet" (Ezekiel 2:1.) He would be reminded of the straight feet of the cherubim as the voice uttered the word "feet". He had feet, too; now the Spirit sets him on them.

J.S. And following this, would he be prepared to hear the voice?

J.T. I think he is already qualified; just as the voice comes in relation to the letting down of the wings, now Ezekiel falls on his face and hears a voice.

Ques. Is there any suggestion of the covenant in verse 28?

J.T. Well, yes, in the broad sense in which the bow suggests covenant relations, I suppose. God's covenant with His creation would be recalled.

A.B.P. What is the thought in, "from the ... loins and upward from the ... loins and downward" Ezekiel 1:27?

J.T. I think the allusion is to divine compassion in Christ. The description is "from the appearance of his loins", alluding to feelings; compassionate feelings.

A.B.P. Would there also be the direction of those feelings, as expressed Godward and manward?

J.T. That is the idea; you have in the same Person what refers to God and what refers to man -- upward and downward. Then it goes on to say, "and I heard a voice of one that spoke" Ezekiel 1:28. And then again in Ezekiel 3:12, "the Spirit lifted me up, and I heard behind me the sound of a great rushing, saying, Blessed be the glory of Jehovah from his place!" -- so that there are actual communications now.

G.MacP. Peter in his second epistle says, "such a voice being uttered to him by the excellent glory"; and then goes on to say, "this voice we heard uttered from heaven", 2 Peter 1:18.

J.T. Yes; when he was about to put off his tabernacle he could speak of what he had seen, being with Him on the holy mountain; not simply when there, but when with Him. The point is association with Christ there.

Ques. Will you help us as to the distinction between a priest and a prophet? Do they run concurrently, or does one precede the other?

J.T. One may be a priest without being a prophet. Christians are all priests, but we are not all prophets. I think that morally the priest comes before the prophet.

Moses was a prophet. He had the privilege of priesthood, too. Entering into the holiest, he received divine communications. Every saint is a priest, as you know -- "a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God by Jesus Christ", 1 Peter 2:5. The general thought is that we have access to God; so morally I think priesthood comes before prophecy. If I am not able to draw near to God, I shall not have a word from Him for the brethren. Prophecy is toward man.

W.S.S. I was thinking, in regard to the last verse of chapter 1, "This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of Jehovah" Ezekiel 1:28, how it would exercise us that we might be in line with these features of government and encourage us also that there might be conditions in which this glory may be apprehended.

J.T. Yes; Ezekiel is able to name it. He is able to name what he saw and to act rightly in regard to it; able to put it into smaller compass of expression. It is the appearance of the glory of Jehovah. He is not elated. He falls down. He is impressed with it, and that qualifies him, I think, for the further word: "Son of man, stand upon thy feet, and I will speak with thee" (Ezekiel 2:1); that is, qualification of the servant is in mind here, all the way through.

W.S.S. Would you say the glory that is referred to here is a glory in the light of which we may live and move at the present time, requiring, of course, suited conditions on our side?

J.T. Each one, in his ministry, must have some contact with God in this way, secretly; that one may see the glory. You see something in relation to what God has in mind for you to do, which is designed to enable you to do it. It is right to fall down, but then He says, Stand up. You are to be used as on your own feet.

W.F.K. Is the service of the living creatures completed in Revelation?

J.T. Well, you get them there with variations from those we are considering. When they give glory and

honour and thanksgiving to Him that sits on the throne, the elders fall down and worship. The living creatures in Revelation have six wings; we are not told what they did with them, but we are told what they say. They celebrate Him that sits on the throne. We get much more than what is found in Ezekiel 1, for the elders worship when they celebrate, but here our mind is being focused on one man who is going to be used of God. And so God would use any of us, but we must be qualified to put a name on what is presented to us from God; we must be reverent in regard to it; not light about it, or elated, but lowly, and prepared to let down our wings, and fall down in the presence of God. And then the word will be to stand upon our feet, and God will speak and tell us what our missions are to be. That is the great lesson in chapter 2.

B. Is there not a great similarity between the taking up of Ezekiel and the call of Jeremiah?

J.T. Quite so; only the grandeur of the display here is much greater.

A.Pf. Ezekiel is told, "Son of man, I send thee" Ezekiel 2:3. Is that a further thought?

J.T. He is being commissioned. He has qualified in chapter 1 in the way he acted in relation to the glory. He named it and fell down, and then the word is, "Son of man, stand upon thy feet, and I will speak with thee" Ezekiel 2:1. One must change his position if he is to get any communication; and then he says, "the Spirit entered into me" Ezekiel 2:2. How important this is! The Spirit of God is my strength now. "And the Spirit entered into me when he spoke unto me, and set me upon my feet; and I heard him that spoke unto me. And he said unto me, Son of man, I send thee to the children of Israel, to nations that are rebellious, which have rebelled against me: they and their fathers have transgressed against me unto this very day; and these children are impudent and hard-hearted: I am sending thee unto

them; and thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the Lord Jehovah", Ezekiel 2:2 - 4. That is his commission.

A.R. Do you think we would have less difficulty in following the ministry that comes to us, if we were more exercised about listening in the power of the Spirit? It says the Spirit entered into Ezekiel.

J.T. That is the next thing to see here; for one spirit actuated the wheels and the living creatures. Wherever the Spirit was to go, they went. The point now is Ezekiel, an actual man, the others are merely symbols -- likenesses -- intended to make impressions on the prophet's mind.

J.S. God has His communications on earth now through Ezekiel.

J.T. That is it. He says, in principle, You are going to have a hard time, but you are to go. There is nothing for the flesh in this at all. The Lord said, "the Son of man has not where he may lay his head", Luke 9:58. And then Ezekiel has to eat the roll; "And he said unto me, Son of man, eat what thou findest; eat this roll, and go, speak unto the house of Israel. So I opened my mouth, and he caused me to eat that roll. And he said unto me, Son of man, cause thy belly to eat, and fill thy bowels with this roll which I give thee. And I ate, and it was in my mouth as honey for sweetness" (Ezekiel 3:1 - 3). This would signify that Ezekiel is moving with God in the matter.

We cannot go into all the details, but we should note the word "valley" (Ezekiel 3:22): "And the hand of Jehovah was there upon me; and he said unto me, Arise, go forth into the valley, and there I will talk with thee". The word "valley" suggests a descent -- that we are to go down -- and would include the suggestion of death. I am to go there, and I get a message there.

A.F.M. As to the eating of the roll in Ezekiel 3, it was in Ezekiel's mouth as honey for sweetness, and when John ate the little book of Revelation 10 it was in his mouth as honey; but when he had eaten it,

his belly was made bitter. Was it after having gone through so much sorrow and suffering in spirit in connection with his mission sympathetically?

J.T. I suppose the New Testament emphasises intelligence in the servant. John would discern what was involved, in the little book, for the saints of God. He would discern that it meant suffering for the saints, and that caused him sorrow. Here, the prophet is not seen as discerning that, although there were lamentations and woes. He is impressed with the sweetness of the word of God.

J.S. Would you say a word about the prophet's movement here from the river Chebar to the valley?

J.T. Well, he is told to go. "And the hand of Jehovah was there upon me; and he said unto me, Arise, go forth into the valley" Ezekiel 3:22. He was by the river Chebar. That was his own matter. He was there and saw the vision there, but now he is directed by God to go to the valley, and it meant that Ezekiel must go down, foreshadowing Christ going into death, for one has to understand what it is to go down into death, to be effective as a servant. The servant must go wherever God directs him. There is always divine significance in a direction of this kind.

Ques. What about the glory following him in the end of verse 23?

J.T. "Arise, go forth into the valley; and there I will talk with thee" (Ezekiel 3:22). He must go there or he will not get the word. "And I arose, and went forth into the valley, and behold, the glory of Jehovah stood there" (Ezekiel 3:23). It is worth while going there to get the glory; to see it. "The glory of Jehovah stood there, like the glory which I saw by the river Chebar". Ezekiel 3:23. It is the same thing; it is now in the valley. "And I fell on my face" (Ezekiel 3:23); he is again reverential.

W.S.S. It is striking that Ezekiel, Daniel, Paul, and John all fell on their faces, or fell to the earth, and they were all told to stand on their feet.

J.T. I think the idea is that you are to be a man. Jehovah said to Job: "Gird up now thy loins like a man" (Job 38:3). It is right to fall on your face as in the presence of God, but for service, a man is to be on his feet -- balanced, ready for action. Joshua fell on his face, too, but God told him to get up. There are things to be done, Standing on your feet means that you are available to God as a man, because manhood is needed in these matters.

W.S.S. Falling on our faces would be the result of the impression made upon us personally; standing on our feet would be for service in relation to that impression.

J.T. One is told to do it. God puts one on his feet, "And the Spirit entered into me, and set me upon my feet" (Ezekiel 3:24). It is in the power of the Spirit that one stands.

A.N.W. As falling on his face, he heard the voice; but in standing up, he heard Him.

W.H-w. Do you think Ezekiel gets his gift in chapter 1; in chapter 2 his commission; and in chapter 3, the word?

J.T. Quite so; he is now actually in the place of death. It is like the apostle's experience preceding the writing of 2 Corinthians. He had gone down, and that is the secret, I believe, of the peculiar character of the second epistle as compared with the first. He had gone down. He says, "We ourselves had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not have our trust in ourselves, but in God who raises the dead; who has delivered us from so great a death, and does deliver", 2 Corinthians 1:9.

R.W.S. Ezekiel says, "And I went in bitterness, in the heat of my spirit" (Ezekiel 3:14). Did that involve the valley?

J.T. The bitterness reminds us of the apostle's saying, "if against my will". There is nothing for the flesh in all this; indeed, it is against the flesh. He says

there, "And the Spirit lifted me up, and took me away; and I went in bitterness, in the heat of my spirit, and the hand of Jehovah was strong upon me. And I came to them of the captivity at Tel-abib, that dwelt by the river Chebar, and I sat where they sat; and I sat there astonied among them seven days" (Ezekiel 3:14, 15). What an experience that was among the captives! Think of the bitterness of his spirit; but then he comes out in power.

Ques. Paul speaks of the greatness of the revelations in the second epistle, and then he goes on to speak about the thorn that was given to him for the flesh. Is that a kindred thought to what we have here; something to modify the effect of the greatness of the revelation upon him?

J.T. Yes. He says, "when I am weak, then I am powerful", 2 Corinthians 12:10. That is what the word "valley" would imply. "And the Spirit entered into me, and set me upon my feet; and he spoke with me, and said unto me, Go, shut thyself within thy house. And thou, son of man, behold, they shall put bands upon thee, and shall bind thee therewith, and thou shalt not go out among them. And I will make thy tongue cleave to the roof of thy mouth, that thou shalt be dumb, and shalt not be to them a reprover; for they are a rebellious house. And when I speak with thee, I will open thy mouth, and thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the Lord Jehovah: He that heareth, let him hear; and he that forbeareth, let him forbear: for they are a rebellious house" (Ezekiel 3:24 - 27).

What an experience he had there! Instead of giving powerful ministry, he has to shut himself up, and they put bands on him, and moreover, his tongue would cleave to the roof of his mouth. What an experience that was! Who of us knows anything about that? But that is what is involved in the valley, and it is in order that in due course God will open his mouth to speak to a people who perhaps will not hear him at all.

It is to bring out the wonderful patience of God; that God is ready to testify to them in spite of their rebelliousness.

J.S. All this glory is shown him over against the rebellious condition of the people.

J.T. You can see the necessity for it. What power you need to minister under these circumstances; when people do not want to hear you!

READINGS ON EZEKIEL (2)

Ezekiel 4:1 - 8; Ezekiel 5:1 - 4; Ezekiel 6:9,10; Ezekiel 8:1 - 6

J.T. At our first reading in Ezekiel, we considered chapters 1 - 3, which deal mainly with the fitting of the prophet for his great service. Chapters 4 - 7 (particularly chapter 4) depict his initial service, into which personal suffering entered. Chapters 8 - 11, taken together, are a subdivision of a great section which extends to chapter 19. In our two readings today we should cover, in a general way, the teaching of chapters 4 - 11, inclusive, so that we can begin with chapter 12 next time.

The first subject to be considered is the sign which portrays a siege against Jerusalem: "And thou, son of man, take thee a brick, and lay it before thee, and portray upon it a city, -- Jerusalem: and lay siege against it, and build forts against it, and cast a mound against it, and set camps against it, and place battering-rams against it round about. And take unto thee an iron plate, and put it for a wall of iron between thee and the city; and set thy face against it, and it shall be besieged, and thou shalt lay siege against it: this shall be a sign to the house of Israel", Ezekiel 4:1 - 3. This is the first solemn lesson in relation to an apostate condition of things; how God has laid siege against it; the prophet being used to represent the besieging power, from which there is no possible escape. The city is completely circumvented for destruction. Then the prophet himself endures suffering during two periods of three hundred and ninety days, and forty days, respectively.

Ques. What is suggested in the character of the testimony rendered in Ezekiel? God is not as yet speaking directly to the people.

J.T. It is a testimony that is presented to them by signs. It was for the people, however. God finds a way of causing such testimony as He gives to reach those concerned in it.

Rem. Later on, he speaks by word of mouth to the rebellious house; but here, the prophet himself is to be a sign.

J.T. That is the thought. It brings those who serve into the character of signs, for God employs signs; and He employs His people as signs. This book is very much marked by that; indeed, all the prophets are marked by it, more or less; and the Lord Jesus brings in the same idea Himself. The book of Revelation was written on this basis, for it is "signified"; that is, it is set out by signs; so that evidently those whom God uses should be ready to be employed in this way. The people later ask the prophet what he means by these things, and he tells them. Something which happens in the way of a sign from God would occasion inquiry, which gives opportunity to bring in the mind of God in detail. So that Ezekiel's portrayal of the city would be that: the apostate condition of things was to be entirely circumvented. There was to be no escape; utter destruction is in mind. In like manner, the book of Revelation shows that utter destruction will fall upon the present apostate state of things.

Ques. Would Mr. Darby's writings apply here?

J.T. Well, his prophetic writings certainly help as to these signs, because they open up the truth. Prophetic ministry was a great feature of the recovery of the truth; not simply prophetic ministry in the sense that we have had it before us recently, as bringing to us the mind of God on current conditions, but opening up the detail of future events.

A.N.W. Does this run on concurrently with preaching the glad tidings to the world?

J.T. I think it does. The book of Revelation helps in that regard. The Lord addressed Himself to the assemblies judicially, but His final word, addressed to Laodicea, is, "I ... have sat down with my Father in his throne" (Revelation 3:21); meaning that whatever

happens in the history of the assembly, the Lord retains His place on the throne of grace -- the Father's throne -- and the gospel goes on accordingly.

It is important that we have the force of the word as to the siege clearly in our minds, first, that God is dealing with the apostate condition that exists, and will deal with it thoroughly. There is no possibility of escape. This sign shows that. It was a siege. The forts are built against it. Notice the word "against". "Cast a mound against it, and set camps against it, and place battering-rams against it round about. And take thou unto thee an iron plate, and put it for a wall of iron between thee and the city" (it would be a protection for the besieging power); "and set thy face against it ... and thou shalt lay siege against it" (Ezekiel 4:2, 3). It is very remarkable language, showing the thoroughness of the judgment that God announced. The system is to be completely destroyed.

J.S. Would the fact that Jehovah reverts to a sign indicate that the ears of the people had become dull of hearing; so that He would now show them something to reach their conscience through their eyes?

J.T. If people do not hear, they may see, in spite of themselves, and this extraordinary intervention did cause them to inquire what it meant, as we see later on. In view of the current thought in the world that there will be continual evolution to a perfect state of things, it is well to see that complete destruction is in the mind of God for the whole system. There is no possibility of escape! It is a very solemn matter, because we are in the midst of a state that is doomed, in this sense; so that Jeremiah, whose ministry corresponds to this testimony, was in the very midst of the city, and the gospel to those in it called upon them to go out from it. That is the gospel that Jeremiah preached. It was a very sorrowful service, for he had to announce the destruction of what he loved -- the city of Jerusalem -- and likewise with Ezekiel too, for the city is called

an ornament (Ezekiel 7:20). We shall see this reference as we pursue our subject.

So that is the position. It is, of course, a spiritual matter, and to be understood in a spiritual way, and the testimony concerning it is to be presented in a spiritual way; nevertheless, it is a fact; all pretension to the development of a better state of things in the future is simply fallacious. The whole system around us is doomed to unmitigated destruction.

A.R. In the addresses to the seven churches, a way of escape is offered for the overcomer in each one; whereas it says, great Babylon has fallen, as if the thing had already happened.

J.T. There is no escape for her; she is doomed. People are called upon to come out of her: "Come out of her, my people", Revelation 18:4. She represents the whole current moral system. The Lord says, "And I gave her time that she should repent, and she will not repent", Revelation 2:21.

A.R. Does the city of Jerusalem in our chapter in Ezekiel represent the whole professing system?

J.T. Yes; that is clearly how it would apply today.

R.W.S. The people are not said to inquire here, but at least the prophet is sympathetic with God. Is he not particularly before us in the way of suffering?

J.T. That is what we shall see, particularly in the next chapter. There is one man who corresponds to Christ. God could portray in Ezekiel beforehand, the spirit and attitude of Christ in suffering, for it is a vicarious position that he takes on; not simply that he is suffering from the hands of man. He is suffering under divine direction, and typically, in a vicarious way, that is, for others.

C.A.M. It is a great privilege to be among those who stand for God. Those men are signs in themselves. Jonah, for instance, or Joshua, standing before the angel, and so too with Ezekiel.

J.T. Quite so; each one is to be concerned as to himself, as to how far he is a sign. The Lord says through Isaiah, in spirit, "Behold, I and the children that Jehovah hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel" (Isaiah 8:18); not only are the prophets signs, but the children also.

A.F.M. Was Ezekiel, in this position, suffering in his own person as with bands upon him, three hundred and ninety days, and forty days, protected by the iron plate for a wall, until the end of the siege?

J.T. Yes; the iron plate in verse 3 would signify protection for the besiegers against counter-attacks. If we are for God in ministering the truth, we shall be attacked. "Take thou unto thee an iron plate, and put it for a wall of iron between thee and the city" Ezekiel 4:3. That would be protection for him, enabling him to carry on his definite attitude of attack. "Set thy face against it, ... and thou shalt lay siege against it". Thus the besieger is protected and continues his attack.

Ques. Would the materials symbolise the condition? Brick is a substance that can be broken in upon. The iron plate would probably represent impregnability?

J.T. Yes; it is said to be "a wall of iron" Ezekiel 4:3. The other would be the condition of the city, I suppose; and the battering-rams being amongst the besiegers' equipment would be very powerful against walls of brick. We are protected by the iron plate so that our eyes may continue on in the right direction. "Set thy face against it, and it shall be besieged, and thou shalt lay siege against it" Ezekiel 4:3; so that the besiegers are protected, and their faces are set in the right direction. We do not turn away from any. The lion is said to be marked by that; he "turneth not away for any", Proverbs 30:30. You set your face in that direction and maintain that attitude.

A.R. Do the first three verses represent God's judgment relative to the city, in order to bring us into correspondence with His judgment? "For God has

judged your judgment upon her", Revelation 18:20. Does it bring in sympathy in that sense?

J.T. Thus we come out with Christ finally in the armies of heaven. We have learned to set our faces against the apostate system. We do not turn aside.

Rem. In Zechariah, reference is made to the wall around Jerusalem in a symbolic way. It is a protection of this kind, is it not? It says, "and I, saith Jehovah, I will be unto her a wall of fire round about" (Zechariah 2:5). That, of course, speaks of Jerusalem in a favourable position.

J.T. That is right; and she is protected by mountains. "Jerusalem! -- mountains are round about her, and Jehovah is round about his people", Psalm 125:2. Here, the position is that of attacking, and you may be sure that there will be a counter-attack. How to meet that is in mind, so that your face is kept in the right direction.

C.N. Will you say a little more about how this siege would apply today?

J.T. It is a very striking picture. You have a besieger's complete equipment, so that victory is assured, and the person who is besieging has his face in the right direction unalterably. We do not turn aside. The wall of iron is to protect you. It is a sort of armour, so that you are kept looking on as a true warrior, in the right direction.

C.N. Did I understand you to say that the gospel would apply, in any sense?

J.T. No doubt it does. The gospel goes on concurrently with what would correspond with this siege today. We were remarking that the book of Revelation opens with the Lord speaking to the assemblies; and to the last one He says that He is about to spue it out of His mouth: the setting aside of the whole public christian profession is intimated, which implies what we have been speaking about; the attack on the whole system. In the meantime, Christ is on His Father's

throne, and therefore the continuation of the testimony of grace goes on. But still, there is this city -- this system of apostasy -- that is now developing rapidly. It is all heading up; so the attack would be of a moral kind, for the moment. It would be in testimony, and that is what God is doing and has been doing for many years -- bringing out His thoughts as to His system of things -- which really is what is most effective in pulling down what man has built up. There is also in the ministry an exposure of the apostasy.

A.C. If Ezekiel was so secured and protected against the forces of evil, would it not serve as an encouragement and incentive to the people of God today?

J.T. Well, you can understand how impregnable the position is as seen here; there is no letting up of the attack: "and thou shalt lay siege against it" Ezekiel 4:3. The thing goes on. And then, "This shall be a sign to the house of Israel" Ezekiel 4:3. There is a testimony in it.

J.S. And would the fact that the city is being besieged show the severity of the judgment of God, for it would compel those besieged to pass through a period of great privation? It is not simply being laid waste, but being besieged in this manner.

J.T. That is right; there is nothing more harrowing or distressing than a siege rightly pressed. And the picture here supposes complete besieging equipment, so that there is no possible escape for those besieged.

Ques. And is there an object lesson in this for us? Should we be prepared to besiege what is apostate today; and, on the other hand, to take on the feelings of those who are in the midst of it in a priestly way?

J.T. Quite so; it is worthy of note that while the siege is going on, the testimony of grace is going on, too -- the testimony of vicarious atonement -- one (Ezekiel) typically bearing the sin. "And thou, lie upon thy left side, and lay the iniquity of the house of Israel upon it: the number of the days that thou liest

upon it, thou shalt bear their iniquity. And I have appointed thee the years of their iniquity, according to the number of the days, three hundred and ninety days; and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Israel. And when thou hast accomplished them, thou shalt lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year" (Ezekiel 4:4 - 6). So that it would look as if the second sign in the chapter is one of grace; how God, while proposing to destroy the apostate state of things, has yet a foundation on which He will introduce another state of things; another world, you might say. So that it is very touching to see how God, beforehand, portrayed Christ in Ezekiel, in causing him to lie those three hundred and ninety days on his left side, and forty days on his right side. It is a very remarkable sign.

C.A.M. So that there would seem to be two things that would work for the blessing of the world around: the starvation condition of things that you get with the siege, and the sufferings and spirit of Christ in grace. Is that the thought?

J.T. Yes. There does not seem to be any suffering for the prophet in the portraying of the siege; but in what suggests vicarious sufferings and atonement, there is suffering. He suffers beyond mere human endurance, I apprehend; for really no human strength could go through this. It could only be gone through in the power of God.

A.N.W. So the apostle says, "I have wished, I myself, to be a curse from the Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen, according to flesh; who are Israelites", Romans 9:3.

J.T. And Moses, too, wishing to be blotted out. It is that same spirit, but here it is a superhuman experience. No one, I am sure, in mere natural strength, could endure this; being bound down with bands for three hundred and ninety days on one side and forty

days on the other. He was not to turn from one side to the other.

J.S. Have we here the vicarious sufferings of Christ portrayed?

J.T. That is what I understand. It is a very important thing, that God's testimony to man is not only of judgment. Whilst God has judgment in mind for the apostate system, He has His own purposes in mind, too.

C.A.M. When Stephen so beautifully portrayed the suffering side, he also went into all the history of the apostate nation. Saul of Tarsus must have seen in him a wonderful portrayal of this in the spirit of it!

J.T. Quite so; Stephen's sufferings were not vicarious; yet it was the spirit of Christ suffering in him; so that he was like Christ in his suffering -- kneeling down and praying for his murderers. Whether the portrayal is before the atoning sufferings of Christ, or after, it is the same thing. Paul said "to whom, as before your very eyes, Jesus Christ has been portrayed, crucified among you", Galatians 3:1. That must have been in himself; he portrayed Christ crucified among the Galatians.

Ques. Would the three hundred and ninety days go back to the time that they departed from God, rather than to the time they went into captivity?

J.T. The forty days would allude to Solomon's reign. It would allude particularly to Judah, and the choice part of the history of Israel. The three hundred and ninety days would be Israel, including Judah later; meaning that there is a sinful condition to be dealt with in the very best and brightest days of Israel, as well as the darkest. That is a very solemn suggestion.

C.B. How do christians press the siege today? Is it done by heeding Paul's word to Timothy: "The Lord knows those that are his; and, Let every one who names the name of the Lord withdraw from iniquity", 2 Timothy 2:19?

J.T. Well, that would be a testimony to it negatively, but then there is the wonderful ministry that God has given to those who have departed from iniquity; the Collected Writings, for instance, and what the Lord has given since. There is the positive side in the ministry, as well as the negative side in withdrawing.

Ques. And would you say that the feelings expressed in withdrawing from iniquity in the assembly should be of this character?

J.T. I think so; you are judging that which you are leaving, and that means that God presently will judge it.

Rem. We really take upon ourselves, as judging it, the occasion of the siege.

A.R. Would you say that the Lord's service in Matthew's gospel was, in principle, a siege against Jerusalem? He operated outside of Jerusalem, according to Matthew.

J.T. Yes. His ministry in the synoptic gospels was mainly outside of Jerusalem. John gives us more in Jerusalem than the others, but He operated outside of it; and His ministry invariably pointed to the destruction of the current system, and when He drew near to Jerusalem, He formally stated that her enemies would come and build a palisaded mound against her; "these are days of avenging", Luke 21:22. But then He was about to die in the midst of it, as Ezekiel was here, in type; so that the besieging was really in the ministry of Christ. The atoning sufferings typified in chapter 4 of Ezekiel were also fulfilled in Him.

R.W.S. Is this extended time compressed in the three hours of forsaking on the cross which the Lord Jesus went through?

J.T. That is the idea, I think; the atoning sufferings were there as well as the testimony to the siege. The Lord could say, "for if these things are done in the green tree, what shall take place in the dry?" Luke 23:31. That was the testimony to the siege; the destruction of the city.

J.S. So that the food supply would have been entirely cut off from the religious leaders of the city, according to Matthew: "Thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them to babes" (Matthew 11:25).

J.T. Just so. It is remarkable how Matthew exposes the religious system at Jerusalem, and shows the Lord preaching to the city, and indicating its doom; but He was also going to die in it.

Ques. What would you say about the bands: "I lay bands upon thee, and thou shalt not turn thyself from one side to the other" (Ezekiel 4:8)?

J.T. It was really the finality of death, setting forth how the Lord Jesus was held in death, as we have often remarked -- the bands of death were there -- real death; the grave was real to Him. So that the "bands" accentuate the type.

C.N. It says of Ezekiel, chapter 4: 7, "thine arm shall be uncovered, and thou shalt prophesy against it" Ezekiel 4:7.

J.T. That would refer to the time when the days were completed; his arm would be uncovered. I suppose that would be a sign of release, like the resurrection. There is testimony after Christ rises from the dead. And then, the besieging would mean that there would be a scarcity of food in the city, but Ezekiel, in going through these sufferings, has food, and a variety of it; but measured food. It says, "thou, take unto thee wheat, and barley, and beans, and lentils, and millet, and spelt, and put them in one vessel, and make thee bread thereof, according to the number of the days that thou liest upon thy side: three hundred and ninety days shalt thou eat thereof. And thy meat which thou shalt eat shall be by weight, twenty shekels a day: from time to time shalt thou eat it. And thou shalt drink water by measure, the sixth part of a hin: from time to time shalt thou drink" (Ezekiel 4:9 - 11). It is very instructive, I think, to consider what typifies Christ as going through the atoning sufferings; how the thought of

food is introduced; a variety of food is under Ezekiel's hand, yet everything according to measure. It is not for enjoyment; just enough to sustain life. No doubt there is allusion to siege conditions, but the reference to food goes further.

A.F.M. But was not the food distasteful to the prophet?

J.T. It was, in the sense of what he had to prepare it with; that is, I think, the awful feelings the Lord had to endure as bearing our sins in His own body on the tree. It represents what He felt when He was made sin. Think of the feelings that arose in connection with Ezekiel taking this food and preparing it with dung; but at the same time there was food, and a variety of it; not animal food, but vegetable food, and water. The point in it, I think, is that He does not succumb. The allusion would be to the power there was in Christ. He was able to cry with a loud voice twice while on the cross.

Ques. And was He able to rise in the same power?

J.T. Yes; but what is stressed is the endurance, going through the unspeakable ordeal; as He was forsaken He cried with a loud voice, and as He was about to die, He cried again with a loud voice; that is, His strength as a Man was maintained. He did not succumb to the terrible pressure; He rose again from the dead. He rose of Himself, although His resurrection is generally presented as by the power of God.

C.A.M. Do you think the food would refer in any way to the effect that the awful atmosphere and happenings of Calvary had on others, such as the thief and the centurion? The "dung" was the fuel used for baking, I understand.

J.T. But it would enter into the food, whatever it was. That is the way you have to look at it, as part of the food; whether it was for fuel for baking or preparation; it was there! Verse 14 shows this. It was mitigated on Ezekiel's complaint, but not in the antitype. The

prophet having to do in this way with what came out of man is a suggestion of what Christ dealt with on the cross and what He had to terminate judicially, for He was made sin.

A.F.M. During the whole period of suffering that the prophet passed through, was there not an activity of a constant kind, whether prophesying or enduring the trial as being bound? The bands were laid upon him. It seemed to be an experience which designated that he was going through some deep exercise through the whole period, from beginning to end.

J.T. It has been remarked that time is condensed; on the cross the condensation was infinite. There were three hours of darkness. He was actually on the cross longer; nevertheless the three hours of darkness and the three days and three nights in the heart of the earth would all be real, but how much was compressed into it! In a divine Person, compression may be infinite, as is suggested in the size of the ark of the covenant.

C.A.M. I suppose it must have been infinite in the case of Christ because the cross involved all the eternal darkness of the judgment of the lost.

J.T. It was dealing with the judgment of God, and who could measure that? Only He could do it!

Ques. Do you think His consciousness would have entered into the grave? I would like to know how the thought of His death, burial, and resurrection, and what entered into that, would connect with His words, "I lay down my life that I may take it again" John 10:17. Just where does His consciousness come into His death and burial?

J.T. It is not easy to say much about consciousness in the grave; but we read of the pains of death, which were loosed. In this as always we have to think and speak according to the language of Scripture. He says to the thief, "To-day shalt thou be with me in paradise", Luke 23:43. His death in that way is like that of believers; He departed from the body for the moment.

But, "Come, see the place where the Lord lay", Matthew 28:6. He was there, and in coming in and taking His body in resurrection, of course, there was that feeling, however brief. Death was there, and it was felt by Him: the pains of death were loosed. It was not possible that He should be held by death's power; the allusion to the pains of death is very solemn and touching; they were real pains.

J.S. So that we must go to various scriptures in the Old Testament to see what He went through in those three days and three nights?

J.T. Yes; the thought of burial attaches to the atonement. The apostle said, "I delivered to you ... that Christ died for our sins, according to the scriptures; and that he was buried; and that he was raised the third day, according to the scriptures", 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4. All that is included in the thought of atonement.

A.R. Would entering into death and rising the third day be for the breaking of the power of death?

J.T. Yes; the three days would mean the actuality of the Lord's death. How actual it was, and prolonged! He tasted death; it was a real thing; not only on the cross, but in the grave.

C.A.M. As I understand it, the expression "pains" used by Peter, that you alluded to, is the pain that brings life into the world.

J.T. Quite so; that would be Himself coming into resurrection.

Ques. You connect the three hours of darkness with the abandonment?

J.T. Quite so; it was a period of realisation of God's abandonment of Him; so that He really endured the full weight of divine wrath. The first cry with a loud voice, I have thought, is that He had exhausted the judgment of God; and the second, I think, is that He was terminating the man that caused all the dishonour and sorrow. I believe that is the significance of the two cries.

A.R. And would you also say that He terminated all that is religious in a pretentious way against God?

J.T. Exactly; all was involved in that.

Ques. At what point does the abandonment cease and God enter into the matter again?

J.T. Well, of course, there is nothing said as to God's intervention until He raised Him from the dead; that is, the idea of atonement runs through. The Lord would not be in death for an instant, were it not that He was suffering vicariously. You could not apply death to Him personally, except in a vicarious sense. It would be derogatory to connect death with Him for the smallest possible space of time, save in a vicarious sense.

A.N.W. Would you care to distinguish, as a matter of time, His bearing sins, and His being made sin, or are they entirely concurrent?

J.T. I think they are concurrent. He actually took on man's condition, and no doubt that is what is alluded to in Ezekiel, in the reference to what came from man. It refers to what His experience was in being made sin; how awful it was to Him! He did not ask for any mitigation of it. Ezekiel did, and got it; but Christ did not. He experienced the thing in being made sin. So I suppose the final cry would be the termination of that; although man had to go into the grave, as well. The first penalty included, "For dust thou art; and unto dust shalt thou return", Genesis 3:19. So that the Lord had to go into the grave and enter into the full extent of God's judgment on man. It is important to keep the grave in mind as part of the vicarious sufferings of Christ in connection with the judgment of God.

A.F.M. At what time were the sufferings completed? The Lord said, "It is finished" John 19:30. But then He went into the grave, and He was there three days and three nights; would that be vicarious?

J.T. It was; it would be negative or passive on His part, but still it was part of the whole thing. The three days and three nights had to do with atonement.

J.S. Do we not have to see what is positive in regard to the overthrowing of the powers of evil -- death and hades; so that He is seen coming out as having the keys of death and hades?

J.T. Implying administrative power as to them. I believe this type is to impress upon us how real the Lord's death and burial were as atoning suffering.

G.MacP. What would be in the mind of the Spirit of God giving this detailed testimony to the death of Christ before it came to pass?

J.T. From the very beginning of Scripture we have testimony to it, but here we have a remarkable testimony in the sense of this sign; a man lying on his side three hundred and ninety days and forty days. What a remarkable thing that a man should experience this in testimony long before the Lord Jesus died!

Rem. And there was no release from this, the prophet not turning until the periods were completed. We sometimes try to swerve out of difficulties, but Ezekiel was, as it were, bound in it.

W.B-w. Will you say something about the barley-cake in verse 12? Does that connect with the second cry, in that it was baked with what comes out of man?

J.T. Well, I suppose so. The barley was the first-fruits of the cereals. The variety of vegetables mentioned here is striking, and the measurements are instructive, too. It is no question of feasting, but enough to sustain life; it suggests what the Lord Jesus went through as Man, having divine power, but nevertheless a Man going through and bearing this awful load, and coming out of it as Man.

R.W.S. He refused the draught given Him which might tend to stupefy the sensibilities.

J.T. That is right; He retained Man's sensibilities right through, so that the last cry is Man's cry. He is

laying down His life, but He has power. No creature can do that because there is positive weakness with us as one is about to die.

J.S. What do you have in mind in respect of variety?

J.T. I think it is the deliberateness that was seen in Christ as Man; He was never overcome by circumstances, no matter how varied. The deliberateness with which Ezekiel was to draw on this variety of vegetable food is suggestive. The remnant will go through all this too, only in a limited way.

A.R. And would you say that the four hundred and thirty days represent not only the history of man, but of the apostate system and its failure before God?

J.T. Yes; and how the Lord felt things; how He went through Israel's history as working out atonement. The whole history would be in His mind. Think of the sins! How they were all counted! As we contemplate the deliberateness with which Christ faced the question of atonement in Gethsemane, it becomes food for us; how deliberate He was about everything, but feeling things profoundly; yet He was never overwhelmed. He was deliberate and His senses were always with Him. Even on the cross, He refused, as has been remarked, to take the vinegar, having tasted it. He retained His taste and power of discrimination to refuse what might be an opiate to Him. Although a divine Person, He is a real Man going through all these sufferings.

J.S. Showing the greatness of the Man!

J.T. I think it should bring Him before us as food, because in pressure we are so apt to be irritated, like Moses, and be flustered and not know what to say, like Peter on the mountain. The Lord was never anything but Himself.

Ques. I want to ask about the blood of the bullock in Leviticus 16, being taken in and put on the mercy-seat, by the priest. What does that place refer to?

J.T. The mercy-seat was under the eyes of the cherubim, but it was the mercy-seat. It denoted mercy.

The blood was sprinkled on the mercy-seat and then seven times before it, meaning I suppose, that there was testimony under the eye of God as to the atoning death of Christ, so that He could look out on the sinner as He does in Chronicles, where the cherubim looked toward man. Jehovah looked out; He could look out on man in grace, being satisfied or appeased with the blood.

Ques. Does the mercy-seat represent heaven? Is it before God as to position?

J.T. Well, you could not say it was in heaven. It was here on earth.

Ques. But where was the blood taken in?

J.T. Well, the idea of place is moral. There are some who say the blood was taken into heaven, but that is forcing Scripture. It all happened, as from Jesus as dead, "immediately there came out blood and water", John 19:34. God saw it; "and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanses us from all sin", 1 John 1:7.

J.S. So that in Romans 3, the Person is the mercy-seat.

J.T. Just so; it is Christ risen. "Whom God has set forth a mercy-seat" (Romans 3:25). That is the idea, so that we must dismiss the literal thought of place. It is what He is before God, in resurrection. But atonement was effected on earth.

C.A.M. As the blood was taken in, so the body was burnt in its entirety outside the camp; so that it must be looked at in a moral way.

J.T. Quite so; all the victims, whose blood was taken inside, were burned outside the camp.

J.S. God making such provision for the sinner's approach?

J.T. Quite so; and so Romans 3 is the opening up of it for the believer.

A.R. What did you have in mind to say about Ezekiel 5?

J.T. These three chapters, 5, 6, and 7, denote the actual carrying out of the judgment. One is struck, in reading them, with the finality - the completeness -- of the judgment. Chapter 7 says: "And the word of Jehovah came unto me, saying, And thou, son of man, thus saith the Lord Jehovah unto the land of Israel: An end, the end is come upon the four corners of the land". Ezekiel 7:2. It is a complete matter, and the whole position is in mind; none are exempt. It is the land now. "Now is the end upon thee: and I will send mine anger upon thee, and will judge thee according to thy ways, and will bring upon thee all thine abominations. And mine eye shall not spare thee, neither will I have pity; but I will bring thy ways upon thee, and thine abominations shall be in the midst of thee; and ye shall know that I am Jehovah. Thus saith the Lord Jehovah: An evil, an only evil! behold, it is come. The end is come; the end is come"; (note the repetitions); "it awaketh against thee: behold, it cometh. The doom is come unto thee, inhabitant of the land; the time is come, the day is near, -- tumult, and not the joyous cry from the mountains. Now will I soon pour out my fury upon thee, and accomplish mine anger against thee; and I will judge thee according to thy ways, and will bring upon thee all thine abominations. And mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity ... and thine abominations shall be in the midst of thee; and ye shall know that it is I, Jehovah, that smite" (Ezekiel 7:3 - 9).

It is the description of the unmitigated judgment on the land -- the whole position. And chapter 5 begins this matter with the figure of a razor being used to shave off the hair and the beard, and the hairs are to undergo a peculiar process. It says in chapter 5: "And thou, son of man, take thee a sharp knife; a barber's razor shalt thou take; and cause it to pass upon thy head and upon thy beard: and thou shalt take balances to weigh, and divide the hair. A third part shalt thou burn in the fire in the midst of the city, when the days

of the siege are fulfilled; and thou shalt take a third part, and smite about it with a knife; and a third part thou shalt scatter to the wind, and I will draw out a sword after them. And thou shalt take thereof a few in number, and bind them in thy skirts; and thou shalt take of these again, and cast them into the midst of the fire, and burn them in the fire: from it shalt a fire come forth against all the house of Israel" (Ezekiel 5:1 - 4).

This is the initial thought of these three chapters; the process Jerusalem is to undergo. But, finally, some are taken in the skirts of the prophet; and then we have the pronoun "it" in verse 4, "from it shall a fire come forth against all the house of Israel" Ezekiel 5:4. It would seem that as a result of that process there is something with which God can again begin to operate; so that we have in chapter 6, "And they that escape of you shall remember me among the nations whither they have been carried captives, when I shall have broken their whorish heart, which hath departed from me, and their eyes, which go a whoring after their idols; and they shall loathe themselves for the evils which they have committed, in all their abominations. And they shall know that I am Jehovah: I have not said in vain that I would do this evil unto them" (Ezekiel 5:9, 10). So that I think we see a remnant now, owned first in the hairs that were taken into the prophet's garment (which would suggest personal identification with them), and taken on in a peculiar way, yet suffering; but a fire comes out in that connection, as if God now has a new starting point.

A.R. They are with God now in His governmental dealings against the city.

J.T. It is the idea of a remnant; God begins to operate again in that connection.

Ques. Why is the hair divided into three parts?

J.T. Well, I think it is to bring out testimony to the prolonged process of judgment, and yet a definite end is to be reached in a remnant

Rem. In Zechariah 13:8,9, the people are divided into three parts also; "two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part into the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried".

J.T. That passage helps as to what is meant here. It is more definite as to the remnant; they are tried as gold is tried.

Rem. The word here seems to have a future bearing. The people are to be reduced to a very small number.

J.T. Quite so; and note the process of reduction, it implies ornamentation being taken away; the shaving of the head and the beard, which to the Jew would be the loss of ornamentation in personal appearance. All that is negative. In this process one loses all caste or standing, whatever it may be, and starts over again; you have to take on new ornamentation.

Rem. Does it not refer to that in chapter 7, "And he set in majesty his beautiful ornament; but they made therein the images of their abominations and of their detestable things" (Ezekiel 7:20).

J.T. That helps as to the word "ornament" We shall see it later in connection with the death of Ezekiel's wife, suggestive of what Jerusalem was. Apparently this shaving process means that any of us who have part in that which imparts natural distinction, are to be shorn of that sort of ornament, to be prepared for another; so that when we come to chapter 8, the hair is again referred to, but in another aspect; it represents power now. It is not ornamentation now; it denotes the power of life operative; hence there is strength in it -- Ezekiel was lifted up by it.

Rem. Even when a remnant is procured, it seems as if God is not entirely satisfied, for the hair is first put in the skirts, and some of these are put into the

fire, as if they are the ones to be more thoroughly disciplined.

J.T. One is impressed with the history of the people of God in the Old Testament; God's extraordinary dealings with them as subjected to continual sufferings, one after another, covering an immense period; and what can it be but that they represent what we all are, only they are taken on as an example, in order that God may show how incorrigible the flesh is, and how patient He is -- in reaching His end in us notwithstanding. If He is to reach His thought in any of us, what a process He has to go through so as to reach, in a small way, what He has in His mind.

Rem. Even though the Jewish people superabound in wealth today "their silver and their gold shall not be able to deliver them in the day of Jehovah's wrath; they shall not satisfy their souls, neither fill their belly; for it hath been the stumbling-block of their iniquity" (Ezekiel 7:19).

J.T. It is very remarkable; even the idea of buying and selling is to be abandoned. Their great characteristic is their aptitude for commerce, but this suffering implies that it all goes for nothing.

W.B-w. Do you think the climax of the abominations in this section would be seen in the image of jealousy and sun worship in chapter 8?

J.T. Yes; but then, in regard to the terrible judgment of chapter 7, as though the commercial ability of the Jew were in mind, it says, "The time is come, the day draweth near: let not the buyer rejoice, nor the seller mourn; for fierce anger is upon all the multitude thereof. For the seller shall not return to that which is sold, even though he were yet alive amongst the living: for the vision is touching the whole multitude thereof; it shall not be revoked; and none shall through his iniquity assure his life" (Ezekiel 7:12, 13). The allusion is to mercantile pursuits, which so characterise that people,

and of course these features come out in all of us. The feature is seen here as withering away; it is nothing.

Ques. Do you think that the expression, "none shall through his iniquity assure his life" would include the thought of unions in the commercial world?

J.T. Quite so; they set forth the idea of iniquity assuring your life, but the saints cannot do things on those lines, for it is iniquity, as has often been pointed out. Trade unions involve iniquitous associations and murder.

Rem. The purpose in the back of one's mind in connecting with a trade union would be to "assure" things.

J.T. Quite so; so you can see that the judgment in chapter 7 is a complete breaking up of that sort of thing, including commerce.

C.A.M. No traffic or trafficker is allowed in God's house. It would seem to preclude any feeling that there is self gain in these holy things.

J.T. Quite so. Now, in regard to chapter 8, it says in verses 3 and 4, "And he stretched forth the form of a hand, and took me by a lock of my head; and the Spirit lifted me up between the earth and the heavens, and brought me in the visions of God to Jerusalem, to the entry of the inner gate that looketh toward the north, where was the seat of the image of jealousy, which provoketh to jealousy. And behold, the glory of the God of Israel was there, according to the appearance that I saw in the valley" Ezekiel 8:3,4. It seems to me that this links on with what we have had before us. The hair in chapter 5 is ornamentation, but the person is shorn of it with a razor, and a terrible process of discipline is seen in what follows there, but now we have the hair on the head and strong enough to be used to hold the man up.

A.F.M. It is referred to as a "lock".

J.T. Quite so. The strength of Samson's seven locks is seen in Judges 16:13, 14. I believe Samson,

as a type, instructs us as to what hair means. It is the testimony to the power of life in a person. Samson's hair began to grow and that is where the power lay for his final victory. So here: "He stretched forth the form of a hand, and took me by a lock of my head; and the Spirit lifted me up between the earth and the heavens" Ezekiel 8:3. It would seem to suggest the power of resurrection. There would be the idea of power in the person: he says, "a lock of my head". We have hair frequently alluded to in Scripture and especially in Samson -- seven locks shaven off by Delilah -- but Scripture does not say it grew afterwards as a lock, it is simply, "the hair of his head began to grow" Judges 16:22. But here it is a lock, and the hand holds Ezekiel by it. It says, "the Spirit lifted me up between the earth and the heavens" (as if it is not only resurrection but ascension), "and brought me in the visions of God to Jerusalem, to the entry of the inner gate that looketh toward the north, where was the seat of the image of jealousy, which provoketh to jealousy. And behold, the glory of the God of Israel was there, according to the appearance that I saw in the valley" (Ezekiel 8:3, 4); that is, God is in the valley, but now in relation to resurrection. It seems to be what God is in relation to death, as having effected resurrection, It is divine power viewed thus that is seen in the following chapters.

C.H. Would that power be suggested in "for if indeed he has been crucified in weakness, yet he lives by God's power", 2 Corinthians 13:4?

J.T. Yes. The testimony of Ezekiel was really the Spirit of Christ speaking in him. Christ was crucified in weakness, but He lives by God's power; but then the apostle goes on to say, "for indeed we are weak in him, but we shall live with him by God's power towards you", 2 Corinthians 13:4. His ministry was in the power of resurrection.

READINGS ON EZEKIEL (3)

Ezekiel 9:1 - 11; Ezekiel 10:18 - 22; Ezekiel 11:13 - 25

J.T. Although we have read in chapters 9, 10, and 11 tonight, it should be kept in mind that our section begins with chapter 8 and is a sub-division of a great section that runs from the beginning of chapter 8 to the end of chapter 19. According to what has previously come before us, the testimony is presented in the power of resurrection, as typified in the lock of the hair of the prophet.

The last verse we have read tonight should be kept in mind as we proceed with our reading. The prophet says, "And I spoke unto them of the captivity all the things that Jehovah had shewn me" (Ezekiel 11:25); showing that what is received from the Lord by those who minister amongst the saints is shown to all; here those of the captivity are particularly in view. This verse closes the section we are considering and would help us to bear in mind that ministry is the outcome of what we receive from the Lord, and that we do not reserve it for any special or personal reasons, but give out what we receive.

Chapter 8 shows that what is current at Jerusalem is the spirit of idolatry, provocative of jealousy. So that we have: "And he brought me to the entry of the court, and I looked, and behold, a hole in the wall. And he said unto me, Son of man, dig now through the wall; and I digged through the wall, and behold, a door. And he said unto me, Go in, and behold the wicked abominations that they do here. And I went in and looked, and behold, every form of creeping thing and abominable beast, and all the idols of the house of Israel, portrayed upon the wall round about. And there stood before them seventy men of the elders of the house of Israel, and in the midst of them stood Jaazaniah the son of Shaphan, with every man his censer in his

hand; and a thick cloud of incense went up. And he said unto me, Hast thou seen, son of man, what the elders of the house of Israel do in the dark, every one in his chambers of imagery? for they say, Jehovah seeth us not; Jehovah hath forsaken the land. And he said unto me, Yet again shalt thou see great abominations which they do" (Ezekiel 8:7 - 13).

Thus it will be observed that these chapters have in mind personal conduct; names of specific persons are mentioned, one of whom dies in chapter 11, and Jehovah is seen calling attention to the evil, and directing the judgments against it in a personal way. So that this section would call upon us to be with God in what He is doing today. There is the general evil condition, but there are also certain persons who are prominent in the evil, and then there are certain persons, beside the prophet, who are brought into the service of judgment with God. Personalities are stressed as being involved in the evil, but in these circumstances, God Himself acts directly and calls others in a personal way into action with Him; so that they become workers with God.

A.B.P. Is there significance in the fact that the living creatures, and other details of the vision which the prophet saw at Chebar, are referred to in this section?

J.T. I think so. It is to bring out that it is all one matter. It began at the river Chebar, where the saints were in captivity; the scene now is transferred to Jerusalem, but it is the same array of power; the same instrumentalities; the same system of judgment. That is not to be lost sight of. But I think this section brings out, peculiarly, individuality in God Himself, and in persons He uses. The idea of individuality has a great place in the Scriptures, set out in persons who minister and who call attention to themselves. For example, we find the expressions, "I Daniel", "I Paul", "I John", and the Lord Jesus uses the same expression, "I Jesus".

All that is to stress the idea of individuality in divine service. This is confirmed in the reference (Ezekiel 8:2), to "the appearance of his loins" downward and upward.

W.B-w. You referred to resurrection in chapter 8, and the glory there. Does that connect with this section?

J.T. Yes. These chapters present the glory seen in judgment and show that the divine lustre does not deteriorate. It is seen in judgment later in Stephen, when his face shone as an angel. The glory was there -- judicial glory -- and, of course, God's glory does not deteriorate when it enters into judgment. God's glory shines unchangeably; so that in the scripture before us the glory appears, and Jehovah Himself comes in and directs everything in a personal way.

W.B-w. In chapter 8 both the image of jealousy and the glory are seen, but later, the glory departs.

J.T. One of the thoughts that run through this section is the departure of the glory, It is a humbling and sorrowful contemplation. The wife of Phinehas, when dying, named her child Ichabod, saying, "The glory is departed from Israel", 1 Samuel 4:21. But its departure is in view of the recovery of the people and its return. Here it is very slow to leave, for judgment is God's strange work, but alas! the glory has to leave: "And the cherubim lifted up their wings, and the wheels were beside them; and the glory of the God of Israel was over them above. And the glory of Jehovah went up from the midst of the city" (Ezekiel 11:22, 23). It is the glory, but it is gradually departing; it is not ceasing; we shall see it coming back later.

C.A.M. You spoke of individuality and of God Himself coming in; do you think that would be a feature of latter church history, which would conform to what was at the beginning? We read of distinctive persons in the Acts, but we might be slow to realise that the same idea is in the mind of the Spirit for the present time.

J.T. I thought we might see that there is such a thing as that; that God Himself is acting. There is the general thought of judgment in the siege; but God is not seen in the siege. It is rather that others are besieging, but this section, from chapter 8 on, I think, brings out that God Himself acts, and others are brought into it, in the sense of personality. The section stresses judicial action, but at the same time has in view that another order of things is presently to come into view. The Acts would give us this same view of things; judicial action on the part of God against Jerusalem, but, at the same time, another order of things in view -- "Jerusalem above" -- awaiting Paul's ministry for its introduction and development. Our part is to carry on the positive side of the truth.

A.N.W. Would the thought of the individuality of God which has been referred to, be illustrated in the matter of the sin of Ananias and Sapphira, as being against the Holy Spirit?

J.T. I think that is good; God is seen in the three Persons there; divine personality is seen in Acts 5; "God" in verse 4; "the Holy Spirit" in verse 3; and "the Lord" in verse 9. Peter alleges that the sin was against each. Divine personality is clearly brought in there.

Rem. Then also in Acts 1, the thought of personality is stressed, where the upper chamber is alluded to, where were staying "Peter, and John, and James, and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James son of Alphaeus, and Simon the zealot, and Jude the brother of lames" (Acts 1:13). And then also "the crowd of names who were together, was about a hundred and twenty"; each one is distinguished.

J.T. Quite so; personality is in mind in the names mentioned, and then in the crowd of names, too; and I think, at the end of the dispensation, it is very suggestive that God is helping us as to the Persons of the Godhead, and how They stand in the testimony. I think we may

refer to that here, because it is touching that God Himself is directing everything in our scriptures, especially in chapters 9 and 10.

C.N. The scriptures read seem to make a difference between those who dwell at Jerusalem and Judah, and those in the captivity. Would you define that for us?

J.T. Well, we have a word in Jeremiah 24 about two baskets of figs; one basket full of very good figs, and the other basket had very bad figs. The latter would refer to those who were left in Jerusalem, for the principle for the moment was to leave Jerusalem. Nebuchadnezzar was said to be Jehovah's servant; not Zedekiah, the reigning king in Judah. Zedekiah was regarded as lawless, and those remaining with him in Jerusalem were viewed in the same way; as bad figs. They did not submit to the governmental dealings of God. They stayed in Jerusalem, as though things were right there. Ezekiel 11 is the same thing; they suppose the position is right, when it is wrong.

Now the figs were said to be very bad -- a very remarkable word and it applies as much today, where there is disregard for the governmental dealings of God. It is a time for governmental dealings, and there are those who disregard them altogether, paying no attention to them, assuming that things are all right, when they are not right. God is dealing judicially with them, as it says, "whosoever has not, even what he seems to have shall be taken from him", Luke 8:18. That is what is going on all around us, and people are paying no attention to it. But then, there is the other side, for it also says, "whosoever has, to him shall be given". So that in the prophet Jeremiah, the good figs are those whom Nebuchadnezzar took away in the first captivity: the king, the princes, the craftsmen, and the smiths; they were honoured in that way, being persons of usefulness, constructive persons. They were carried away captive, but were viewed as

submissive to the government of God, and God's hand was over them for good.

Now the same idea is found in Ezekiel, for those who were in Jerusalem were not subject to the government of God, and God Himself directed the judgment against them, whilst those in the captivity are viewed in the light of favour, and the message through Ezekiel is taken to them, namely, "all the things that Jehovah had shewn me" (Ezekiel 11:25).

C.N. Referring again to Jeremiah, the good figs as brought back and presented at the door of the temple would be for food.

J.T. Quite so. The Lord sought for figs when here; He was hungry, but He found none. But now there are good figs in one basket -- those viewed as subject to God's dealings, as we have seen. But those actually at Jerusalem were very bad; worse than if there were none.

Rem. The condition is called "wicked" in this book: it says, "she hath rebelled against my judgments in wickedness more than the nations, and against my statutes more than the countries that are round about her: for mine ordinances have they refused; and my statutes, they have not walked in them" (Ezekiel 5:6). I was thinking of what you were saying about what is committed. In Matthew 25, the bondman who disregarded the proper use of what was committed to him was called a "wicked bondman".

J.T. Yes; an ordinary judge would hardly pronounce that upon him. He just hid the talent in the earth; did not use it. That is wickedness, for he is called a "wicked bondman". I think we are perhaps too slow to recognise that insubjection to the government of God is wickedness, whatever form it may take.

Rem. So that the image of jealousy at Jerusalem, which disputes the rights of the glory, renders the city wicked.

J.T. Quite so. Then, referring to chapter 9, we have a cry, "And he cried in mine ears with a loud voice, saying, Draw near, ye that have charge of the city", Ezekiel 9:1. There must be something of importance in that voice. "Ye that have charge of the city". These would not be the princes, whose names we get in chapters 8 and 10. These are they whom God regards as responsible, and He is calling them into action, "every man with his slaughter weapon in his hand" Ezekiel 9:1. These weapons, and the persons who hold them, are not looked upon with favour by us unless we are really with God. But God would call us into this, as to the general position in the profession.

C.H.H. Would they correspond with the angels of the assemblies?

J.T. It would be the same sort of thing, I think; those who are responsible representatively, so that the Lord calls upon each angel to do something; He charges them to deal with evil. The angels of the assemblies are not, however, viewed as apart from the evil that may exist in the assemblies, but they are responsible and called upon to act.

Rem. Chapter 4 seems to present Ezekiel as doing things, whereas here it is the responsible element in the city that acts.

J.T. Well, God is here calling individuals into service, not simply one, but several, and these are persons regarded as having charge: "Ye that have charge of the city" Ezekiel 9:1. It is a special class of people, and they are armed. God has taken the thing in hand Himself, in a personal way, and He has taken qualified persons for the service on hand. And then, there is a special person clothed in linen with a writer's ink-horn. He is a very interesting man, for he has a great place in this chapter and in the next one too. We should keep our eye upon him; he is clothed in linen, and is told to mark off the people who are not to come under judgment. He is a peculiarly interesting man, for he

represents grace, and also divine discrimination. It is a service to be specially desired. He is furnished. He has what is needed, and he is able to mark off the people that sigh and cry. He has a good ear for sounds, capable of hearing sighs and cries on account of current wickedness.

J.S. That would be those feeling the evil; not such as would make merry.

A.N.W. Is he the seventh in the midst of the six -- a complement of the six? The six are executors of judgment, whilst this man looks for what is to be saved.

J.T. Yes; that is a very interesting point. He represents God in discrimination. The six men represent God in judgment, particularly as being in charge of the city. It is a time of judgment, but it is lighted up by this man who is clothed in linen and has a writer's ink-horn by his side. He is in the midst of the others, but he has a distinctive work to do.

Rem. In Matthew 13, the fishermen gathered the good fish into vessels and cast the worthless out.

C.H.H. Would the weeping in verse 14 of chapter 8 be in a wrong sense? It says that the women were weeping.

J.T. Quite so; they were weeping for Tammuz, which would refer to idolatry. There is much of that kind of religious feeling around us.

J.S. What would the position of the brazen altar in verse 2 indicate?

J.T. The altar was the place of judgment in a sacrificial sense; at the cross Jesus suffered the extreme judgment of God against sin; hence the consistency of God in this action. The great white throne is in keeping with the altar, and the sufferings of Christ, where God meted out judgment to His own Son on account of man's disobedience. How can He tolerate disobedience in men now? That would seem to be the idea; the altar represents God's consistency with what He is doing.

R.W.S. In chapter 8 there seems to be a thorough discovery of what is in the city. Verse 7 reads, "he brought me to the entry of the court" Ezekiel 8:7, then in verse 14 it says, "he brought me to the entry of the gate of Jehovah's house" Ezekiel 8:14, and in verse 16 it refers to "the inner court of Jehovah's house" Ezekiel 8:16; then in chapter 9 there seems to be a thorough knowledge of conditions in the city. How would that apply today?

J.T. Is it not that God would help us to judge things? For, if we withdraw from iniquity, we must know it exists; not that one is to be an iniquity-monger; not that we are looking for it, but God leads us to see it; it is a question here of what God shows His people. One would not like to go through the world looking for the iniquity that is current, but God shows us what is there. We are with God as to the general position, and He is with us.

J.S. That would be iniquity in high places?

J.T. Exactly, chiefly in the house. Think of what was going on inside Jehovah's house! Today it is the "great house" 2 Timothy 2:20.

J.S. I was thinking of the Lord going into the temple and driving out all those who bought and sold; they were making His Father's house a merchandise mart.

J.T. We do not hear of Him going into the slums of Jerusalem to find out what the underworld was doing. It was those professedly in relation to God that He dealt with, because that is where Satan will work against God. Of course what is in the underworld is against Him, too, but it is not specially so. The enemy gets as near as possible to what is nominally of God. Satan gets as near to God as he can in his operations against Him.

J.S. And that would be to hinder the service of God?

J.T. Exactly; to nullify what God is identified with. Everybody knows that God is not identified with the

underworld, but the cathedrals and the so-called churches and the like provide room wherein Satan can operate, and, indeed, wherever the people of God are, it can be said that "Satan also came" Job 1:6. He would corrupt, if possible, what is connected with God; especially His house. God shows the prophet the corruption which had been introduced in relation to His house and His city.

A.F.M. These men with the slaughter weapons were told to slay utterly the old men and the young men, and maidens and the little children and the women. I was thinking of how complete this judgment was, that it took in even the little children. We have just heard about the temple, where the children sang His praises. You could not think of judgment falling upon them, but what a remarkable thing it is that there are little children here! How ready the devil is to influence even little children!

J.T. What a voice it is to us as to our children! And it is lest they should be found in these ways, not lest they should have part in the underworld, but lest Satan should corrupt them in these ways, where God is outwardly owned; in places having a reputation that God is there. According to Ezekiel, the little children are brought there, the women are there, and the old men, and the young men; they are all there; all in the wickedness!

Rem. It says in Revelation 2:23, "her children will I kill with death". And of Babylon it says that her sin reaches to heaven. I suppose there could be nothing worse in the sight of heaven than spiritual fornication.

J.T. That is what is in mind here; the prophet is shown things which are about to fall under the execution of judgment. Today our judgment is executed in withdrawal from these things -- rigid withdrawal. It is a moral judgment, but the things are known. God shows them to us; we do not have to ferret out evil.

God shows us the things that affect Him, and calls us to be with Him in the judgment. Of course, as gathered to the Lord's name in the recognition of the assembly, if evil shows itself in any way we are bound to investigate, in a priestly way. Hence if evil is found to exist, we have witnesses, and thus ground on which to move in judgment.

C.H.H. Would 2 Timothy correspond as indicating our responsibility to exercise judgment in relation to what is in the house?

J.T. Yes; the different kinds of evil are recorded in chapter 3, particularly.

A.Pf. There are those who are marked out by the man with the ink-horn; would that be a remnant?

J.T. The suggestion is that we are to be able to determine those that are immune from this judgment. So that 2 Timothy is, "pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace, with those that call upon the Lord out of a pure heart" (2 Timothy 2:22). The suggestion is that you can locate such; you can discover them; and withdrawing from iniquity is in keeping with the thought of judgment here. We do not do violence to people who are in iniquity; we leave them. God will deal with evil in His own time. Our position is a moral one; we act on the ground of withdrawal, but, on the other hand, we are to discern those who are calling upon the Lord out of a pure heart. It is not now that they have a mark in their foreheads; it is a question of what is in their hearts, and you must get near to them to discern that.

A.R. Is the mark on the forehead a result of what is inward?

J.T. It would be, as indicating the work of God, but you must get near to people to discover what is in their hearts. Jehu said, "Is thy heart right, as my heart is with thy heart?" 2 Kings 10:15. That is the way it works out today, by getting near to people and finding out where they are. Otherwise, many may

come in amongst us whom we may have to sorrow over later.

C.A.M. Jehu did not shake hands with him until he was sure. He extended his hand on the basis that the other man's heart was right.

J.T. Quite so. Well, then, our chapter goes on to say, "And the glory of the God of Israel was gone up from the cherub, whereupon it was, to the threshold of the house" (Ezekiel 9:3). That is, God is moving; the whole position is made plain. Attention is called to the brazen altar; the place where Christ bore the extreme judgment of God on account of sin. And now God is moving; leaving the house, and so the passage goes on to say, "and he called to the man clothed with linen, who had the writer's ink-horn by his side; and Jehovah said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that are done in the midst thereof. And to the others he said in my hearing, Go after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have pity" Ezekiel 9:3 - 5. There are many who would be inclined to listen attentively to what is said to this man with the writer's ink-horn, who is going to relieve some of judgment, but they would recoil from the idea of judgment, and no doubt that is why Ezekiel says, "in my hearing", as we have noticed; "And to the others he said in my hearing, Go after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have pity. Slay utterly the old man, the young man, and the maiden, and little children, and women; but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary" (Ezekiel 9:5, 6).

F.N.W. Peter speaks of the judgment beginning, "from the house of God" 1 Peter 4:17. Would these men who come and stand beside the brazen altar be such?

J.T. Yes; those with the slaughter weapons. But first they stand where there is a judgment of sin,

according to God. They stood beside the brazen altar. It is the standing testimony to the judgment of God. At the present time this should be maintained; indeed, it is, to some extent at least, in our care meetings and our assembly meetings convened for the purpose of dealing with sin. All this is in keeping with the brazen altar.

A.C. Does the man clothed with linen appear at a certain crisis? Daniel, at the end of his book, speaks of a man clothed in linen who was able to give a definite answer to the prophet's inquiries.

J.T. I think the idea of being clothed in linen is that you are qualified. The Lord said, "Let him that is without sin among you first cast the stone", John 8:7. If we execute assembly discipline, surely it implies that we ourselves are judging the thing, and not only the particular matter in hand, but everything like it; that we are thus morally clear. The man clothed with linen represents what God can approve and use in this service. It is a question of holy discrimination. The executors of the judgment follow this man with the linen garment, for discrimination is most important, else we might execute judgment on persons who are not guilty. This is quite possible; the question as to whether the facts, stated as to a given person, are so or not, comes up frequently amongst us, and it is important that there should be the state amongst us that is represented by the man in linen, with a writer's ink-horn, who is able to discern a person that is immune.

W.B-w. It is said in verse 11 that the man with the ink-horn came back and "reported the matter". Is that a good feature?

J.T. Yes, and he said, "I have done as thou hast commanded me" Ezekiel 9:11. It is a finished matter. The chapter outlines the whole matter, and what you have just quoted is the finish of it. The matter is reported; it is all settled in heaven.

W.B-w. So that when a case comes up before the general meeting, it is, as it were, reported, and the brethren can judge according to the facts.

J.T. Here all is done as divinely commanded; that is the true basis for judgment.

A.F.M. Is not the attitude of Ezekiel a good one? He says, "while they were smiting, and I was left, that I fell upon my face, and cried, and said, Ah, Lord Jehovah! wilt thou destroy all the remnant of Israel in thy pouring out of thy fury upon Jerusalem?" (Ezekiel 9:8). He felt things; that is another feature according to God.

J.T. Yes; and you have a counterpart of that in chapter 11, when Pelatiah died; "And I fell down on my face, and cried with a loud voice, and said, Ah, Lord Jehovah wilt thou make a full end of the remnant of Israel?" (Ezekiel 11:13). It is surely right that we should feel things; God, I think, values that and honours it.

Rem. There does not seem to be any alleviation here.

J.T. You mean on account of Ezekiel's feelings? No; that is to be noticed; there is no alleviation. This book says that "though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, should be in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness" (Ezekiel 14:14). The severity of God's judgment is stressed, but it is all on the principle of perfect discrimination. The evil is shown; God Himself takes part in showing it, and the judgment is on the ground that the thing is manifest.

Ques. Moses says, "And now, if thou wilt forgive their sin ... but if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book that thou hast written. And Jehovah said to Moses, Whoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book", Exodus 32:32, 33. Is that not the point: every one must bear his own sin?

J.T. Quite so; that is stressed in this book.

W.B-w. Pelatiah, whose death is recorded in chapter 11, was a prince supporting the wickedness. His death is God's government.

J.T. That is right; personality, in a bad sense, is seen in chapter 11. The names of two princes are given: "And the Spirit lifted me up, and brought me unto the east gate of Jehovah's house, which looketh eastward; and behold, at the door of the gate were five and twenty men; and I saw in the midst of them Jaazaniah the son of Azzur, and Pelatiah the son of Benaiah, princes of the people" (Ezekiel 11:1). These represent the public men of Jerusalem. The book of the Acts brings such before us too, as also the epistles; certain men of distinction, in a bad sense. One of these, Pelatiah, died; that is, God discriminated against him. Ezekiel's sorrow did not alter that. But God went on immediately to speak to Ezekiel about his brethren. It is as though God said, Never mind these distinguished men; it is your brethren that you are to think about.

W.B-w. Would these men be paralleled in Herod in Acts 12, who was eaten of worms?

J.T. Just so. There are many mentioned in the Acts, but he is an outstanding case of one who came under the judgment of God, and we have similar instances in the history of God's government -- weakening the power of evil until it is finally dealt with.

A.B.P. Does the execution of this judgment fit in with the straight feet and the straight going of the cherubim?

J.T. Quite so; there is no discrepancy on that side; everything is infinitely accurate Now in chapter 10 we have a most interesting set of facts, which require to be followed very closely. The matter outlined in chapter 9 is reported and finished in the last verse. In chapter 10 we read: "I looked, and behold, in the expanse that was over the head of the cherubim there appeared above them as it were a sapphire stone, as the appearance of the likeness of a throne. And he spoke unto the man clothed with linen, and said, Come in between the wheels, under the cherub, and fill the

hollow of thy hands with coals of fire from between the cherubim, and scatter them over the city. And he went in in my sight. And the cherubim stood on the right side of the house, when the man went in; and the cloud filled the inner court. And the glory of Jehovah mounted up from the cherub, and came over the threshold of the house; and the house was filled with the cloud, and the court was full of the brightness of Jehovah's glory" (Ezekiel 10:1 - 4).

Now, this is most interesting, for God is acting Himself, and one cherub is singled out. We have been speaking of personality, but now we have a cherub acting, but the man with the linen is also here, and he is invited in, and told to fill the hollow of his hands with coals of fire from between the cherubim, and scatter them over the city. Now he is not discriminating in favour of the persons with the mark; it is the same man that we saw earlier, but he is now engaged in a general act of judgment, which would show how we are to he usable, as God may need us. He is a man who is fit to be called in to the inner circle of things, and to be used in a general act of judgment over the city, but in doing so he is to take the coals in his hands; that is, he is a feeling man; he feels, himself, what he is doing, for the palms of one's hands would feel coals of fire. It is not like the tongs which are used in Isaiah 6. The seraphim there did not feel the heat of the coal, but this man takes them in the palms of his hands; and he is a useful man, for, as we have seen, he is discriminating, and he can be used for judgment, and he feels what he is doing.

W.R. In Luke 24 the disciples were directed to remain in the city of Jerusalem until they were clothed with power from on high. Similarly to what you have said, this stay in the city would tend to effect in them right feeling and judgment in view of their service.

J.T. Yes; they were to stay there until they were clothed with power from on high. Jerusalem was a

guilty city, and they were to stay in it, as if to become fully aware of the actual conditions which existed in it after the death and resurrection of Christ. But if they are to represent the Lord, an accurate knowledge of conditions is not enough; they need the clothing from on high as well. They get that in the coming down of the Spirit.

C.N. Would the two positions of this man refer to the end of the dispensation; that he had been marking those who were immune from the judgment; now he takes the fire and scatters it?

J.T. Yes. It would now seem as if the time has come for general application of judgment. When Stephen was put to death it would seem as if all the apostles should have left Jerusalem. "When they persecute you in this city, flee to the other" (Matthew 10:23), was the word, but the apostles did not leave. The saints generally did. But later there was a great number, as the elders say to Paul: "Thou seest, brother, how many myriads there are of the Jews who have believed", Acts 21:20. The destruction of Jerusalem was near: are they really immune? Has the man clothed in linen marked their foreheads? Scripture somewhat reflects on this condition. It mentions no support from them for Paul in his last visit. The epistle to the Hebrews urged them to leave the camp -- had they done it? If not, as applied to that time, the scattering of the coals indiscriminately over the city would suggest that there was no provision for them. 1 Corinthians 11 points to the danger of christians who do not judge themselves, being judged with the world. If the fire is scattered by a feeling man, a man who would have discriminated if he could; if he scatters the fire indiscriminately, what does it mean? If there are those belonging to the Lord there, they are judged with the rest. If I stay in an association that is contrary to God, I am judged with it. Of course, the Lord will take all His own with Him when He comes for the assembly, but in the meantime

they are morally under judgment: their salvation will be so as by fire. They will be of that class.

Rem. They were enjoined to flee to the mountains, as Jerusalem was encompassed with armies.

J.T. Quite so; those in Judaea, and those in the midst of the city were to depart out of it.

C.H.H. "Come out of her, my people, that ye have not fellowship in her sins", Revelation 18:4.

J.T. That is in keeping with the direction in Hebrews 13:13, to believers among the Jews, to "go forth to him without the camp".

Ques. So in receiving anyone now from christendom it is necessary to be more discriminating than was the case a hundred years ago?

J.T. Just so; conditions have greatly changed for the worse, and continue to grow worse.

A.N.W. This man of whom we read is personally the same as he was, minus the ink-horn; he still has the linen.

J.T. That would mean that the time for the ink-horn, with its corresponding discrimination, has gone. We should be concerned that we are amongst those who have been marked. We see this man with the mark, and that one; why have not I such a mark? This searching matter should be thus faced. If one has not been marked by the man clothed with linen, he will be judged with the world.

Ques. Would you say it is a serious matter for christians to be linked up with systematised religions, because of what is foretold in this scripture?

J.T. I think this chapter shows the exercise of undiscriminating judgment. The fire is to be cast over the city; he would not do it if it could be avoided; the judgment is felt in the palms of his own hands.

R.W.S. The Lord says later, "I have scattered them among the countries, yet will I be to them as a

little sanctuary in the countries whither they are come" (Ezekiel 11:16). Is that where they should have been -- in the "little sanctuary"?

J.T. That is what those outside, having a remnant character, come into. They are in view throughout. In chapter 11 the sanctuary has a very distinct place. It is peculiarly interesting because of Ezekiel's lamentation; he "cried with a loud voice, and said, Ah, Lord Jehovah! wilt thou make a full end of the remnant of Israel? And the word of Jehovah came unto me, saying, Son of man, it is thy brethren, thy brethren, the men of thy kindred, and all the house of Israel, the whole of it, unto whom the inhabitants of Jerusalem say, Get you far from Jehovah: unto us is this land given for a possession. Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Although I have removed them far off among the nations, and although I have scattered them among the countries, yet will I be to them as a little sanctuary in the countries whither they are come. Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord Jehovah: I will even gather you from the peoples, and assemble you out of the countries where ye are scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel. And they shall come thither, and they shall take away from thence all its detestable things and all its abominations. And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take away the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them a heart of flesh; that they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them; and they shall be my people, and I will be their God" (Ezekiel 11:13 - 20).

That is the position; the remnant is to come in for the full divine consideration, and all this comes out in relation to Ezekiel's concern about the death of Pelatiah. Jehovah says, "it is thy brethren", and He shows what they are coming into.

J.S. Is God establishing a new covenant with the people of Israel here?

J.T. It has that character, only it is the remnant, and it seems to be an answer to Ezekiel's wail because of Pelatiah, the prince, who died.

G.MacP. Sorrow occasioned by the governmental dealings of God would fit us to have part in these gracious provisions for the remnant.

J.T. That is right. What is said about the remnant here is, you might say, what the saints enjoy now; that God takes those on who are truly the remnant.

A.R. Perhaps like Philadelphia, do you think?

J.T. Very much like it; it is brotherly love. It is the thought of brethren: "thy brethren" is repeated in the text as if the Spirit of God is calling attention to that word.

Rem. It seems to be a private matter now -- "little sanctuary" -- and fits in with John's gospel where the Lord says, "Come and see. They went therefore, and saw where he abode; and they abode with him that day", John 1:39. It is in a limited way, but very precious.

J.T. Quite so; God Himself is the "little sanctuary". Think of God coming down to be that! How touching that is! And then we ought to see, before closing, that the glory leaves entirely. The description of the vision here varies somewhat from what we have earlier. Instead of an ox, there is a cherub. It is not an earthly position; it is more elevated, more the heavenly side in chapter 10. The glory is departing, but departing in that upward way. It is heavenly power and movement; we read in the end of chapter 11: "And the cherubim lifted up their wings, and the wheels were beside them; and the glory of the God of Israel was over them above. And the glory of Jehovah went up from the midst of the city, and stood upon the mountain which is on the east side of the city. And the Spirit lifted me up" (Ezekiel 11:22, 23). The prophet is taken off to Chaldea again; so far it is a finished matter now. The matter of chapter 9 was finished and reported; and now this is a finished

matter. The glory has departed, and now the prophet is among the captives and tells them all the things that Jehovah had shown him. This would include what he and they were to come in for. Thus they would be strengthened and encouraged through the prophet.

Ques. Would there be an inference in the "little sanctuary" that the glory has returned to the remnant?

J.T. Well, in the presence of God you get everything. What more could you see than what God is?

F.N.W. Would the sanctuary at Jerusalem, where the judgment began (Ezekiel 9:6), correspond with Sardis, "a name that thou livest, and art dead" Revelation 3:1; and the "little sanctuary", with "the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God" Revelation 3:12, in Philadelphia?

].T. Yes; it is good to link those passages with the scriptures before us. Revelation 3:12 contains the greatest things, and it is said to one man -- an overcomer.

J.S. Where would you say the departure of the glory is indicated in the New Testament?

J.T. Finally from Jerusalem; I suppose it would be in Acts 7. The death of Stephen, I think, was the finish, really. Stephen saw the glory of God. He saw it above -- the heavens were opened upon him, and, the passage says, "he saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God", Acts 7:55,56. That was the transfer from Jerusalem to heaven, and henceforth Jerusalem is in principle given up. Although the apostles went on there for a long time after Stephen's death, Jerusalem on earth was superseded by the heavenly Jerusalem.

J.S. Did Stephen in his intercession at the golden altar stay the judgment for the moment?

J.T. Well, he asked that his death should not be laid to their charge, but I think the testimony in Jerusalem was morally finished; according to the Lord's direction, the apostles should have left it. The Lord had told them that if they were persecuted in one city to flee to another; the saints generally went out,

but the apostles remained. God, of course, went on with them, but henceforth the energy of the Spirit is seen elsewhere.

J.S. I suppose you see it in principle in Peter's word: "Save yourselves from this untoward generation" Acts 2:40.

C.H.H. Would the fact that the throne is seen above the cherubim be to justify the throne? Judgment is to be justified in all this!

J.T. Just so; the majesty of the throne is maintained in all that happens. The actions of the cherubim are in full keeping with the glory which is seen leaving Jerusalem; it is going up. I think Stephen shows us where it went to; now it is in the assembly; it was already there from Pentecost, but still connected with Jerusalem, but now there in a peculiar way through Paul's ministry.

A.R. Would Ezekiel's return to those men in captivity be like the book of Revelation, sent by the Lord Jesus to His bondmen? I was thinking of what a time they would have going over all this with Ezekiel, for it would seem that he told them about it.

J.T. Well, if you were to ask them, they would, no doubt, speak of 'good meetings' in Chaldea as listening to Ezekiel going over these things. As a good Levite, he would not give them all at once. Spiritual ministry is "in part". The little sanctuary would imply that the remnant is on the way now to the full thought of God's purpose. What is said implies that they are to be brought back to their own land, and His law is to be written in their hearts, so that we have the great prospect of the return to the land, and the fulfilment of God's mind. But it is striking that God starts with the remnant in view of ultimate recovery and blessing in the land.

W.B-w. The truth we have today, in the epistle to the Ephesians, for instance, brings us back to the land by the Spirit, does it not?

J.T. We ought to touch it in our assembly services.

Rem. There would, no doubt, be a condition necessary among the captives for the communications made through Ezekiel.

J.T. What has been said from Jeremiah helps in this matter; that those who have gone out in the captivity are the good figs, as submitting to the government of God. This would indicate a state in them enabling them to value what Ezekiel would present to them.

C.H.H. Is the thought of God being "a little sanctuary" like the thought of the latter glory of the house being greater than the former (Haggai 2:9)?

J.T. Yes. If God is with us the glory is with us; it is a question of expansion. We need to make room for Him. John 14 says that one believer who keeps Christ's word may be an abiding place for God; here God says He will be to them a "little sanctuary". That is what God can be to us. How comforting, especially for any in apparent isolation!

READINGS ON EZEKIEL (4)

Ezekiel 12:1 - 11; Ezekiel 16:1 - 8, 60 - 63; Ezekiel 19:10 - 14

J.T. The section to be covered this evening is quite extensive and follows the record in the end of chapter 11, that "the glory of Jehovah went up from the midst of the city, and stood upon the mountain which is on the east side of the city" (Ezekiel 11:23). It had left Jerusalem. These following chapters, therefore, are to be regarded in the light of that solemn fact; hence we have "captive's baggage" referred to in chapter 12. The first thing to be considered, therefore, is the condition of captivity and what goes with it -- captive's baggage -- which, in view of the facts given here, would be very poor belongings.

And then the next chapter speaks of the false prophets and prophetesses; elements which may be expected where the glory has departed. In chapter 14 the responsible element in Israel makes inquiry, and the state of things is said to be so bad that even such godly and honoured servants of God as Noah, Daniel and Job could but save themselves from such a state of things by their righteousness. Chapter 15 teaches that unless there is fruitfulness, profession is worthless -- the wood of the vine is of no value save as it bears fruit. Chapter 16 outlines the moral history of Jerusalem as in relation with Jehovah; her unfaithfulness from the outset. She is to be caused to know her abominations. The reinstatement of Jerusalem is in prospect, too; it is a chapter of great length, bringing out the faithfulness and love of God, and the solemn fact that, in return, He received nothing but rebellion and corruption. The concluding chapters of our section, chapters 17 to 19, hinge on the disclosures of chapter 16. Chapter 17 refers to the Babylonish captivity. Chapter 18 shows that sins of the fathers are not now regarded as coming upon people, but each one is liable on account of his

own conduct. Then the concluding chapter in this section (chapter 19) speaks of the dearth of rulers. The house of David has failed in rule: "so that it hath no strong rod to be a sceptre for ruling" (Ezekiel 19:14). Then it says, "This is a lamentation, and shall be for a lamentation" Ezekiel 19:14; that is to say, right feeling as to the whole position comes in at the end of this section.

C.A.M. The glory having moved from the city would give colour to the whole section?

J.T. That is right; the glory had departed. So if we apply it to our own times, it would mean that God has left the public profession. He is no longer characteristically there. Throughout these chapters, provision is made for the remnant. In chapter 11, it says: "yet will I be to them as a little sanctuary" (Ezekiel 11:16). But generally, the glory has departed, and these chapters have to be read in that light.

J.S. So you would read chapters 12 to 19 into the history of christendom?

J.T. I think so. Viewed from the standpoint of the captivity, it typifies the world as captivating the profession, which has become just a phase of the world system -- the Babylonish captivity. Hence it becomes a question of whether we carry "captive's baggage"; are we captives characteristically? I am using the word "baggage" because that is how the New Translation renders it: "And thou, son of man, prepare thee a captive's baggage, and go captive by day in their sight; and thou shalt go captive from thy place to another place in their sight. It may be they will consider, though they are a rebellious house" (Ezekiel 12:3). The prophet acts the thing; he is a sign in that way. To act at all for God in a representative way, one requires to be priestly. And of course we know that Ezekiel was characterised as being such. He is introduced to us as "the priest" (Ezekiel 1:3), and that thought runs through the book. The word "burden" has a somewhat varied meaning. Here it would convey

the thought of "word" or prophecy. But it is something to be borne -- a weight -- and the prophet would feel it; we are told it concerned "the prince in Jerusalem, and all the house of Israel that are among them" Ezekiel 12:10. The prince in Jerusalem would himself go forth as a captive, as, indeed, Zedekiah did, later.

Ques. Does the taking of this captive's baggage refer to what is right, or rather to what is the outcome of the government of God?

J.T. It refers to the government of God; to the humiliating spectacle of a prince, or king, and the people of Israel going forth in this way.

Ques. You do not suggest that in separating from evil we should pursue this line?

J.T. I would not like to be found with captive's baggage. Those who have it are persons who are characteristically in captivity. Spiritual persons are not like that; they are dignified, according to chapter 11. They are said to be the brethren of the prophet, to whom God would be a sanctuary in their captivity; for while the government of God involved the captivity, and the spiritual in it would own this, yet I think that the "baggage" is an index to the spiritually sorrowful side of the position.

A.F.M. It would be very humiliating to Zedekiah to be deported with captive's baggage, deprived of eyesight, to Babylon.

J.T. Yes; to apply it today, it would be like the paraphernalia which is to be seen in the profession about us, as compared with what the saints had at Pentecost. What moral dignity attached to the early saints as in Acts 2! They were not in captivity! It was a new order of things in deliverance from the world. The same dignity in a moral sense attaches to those at the end, having the character of a remnant.

J.S. Is this an added burden put upon them in the government of God?

J.T. Clearly; humiliation attaches to the position now, I think. If anyone is awakened to what is current abroad, he sees that the cathedrals and choirs and organs and paid ministers and other accompaniments and paraphernalia are just a mark of the world, a mark that the profession is in captivity. There is nothing of spiritual dignity about it.

A.B.P. The use made of possessions by the saints at the outset was apparently so pleasurable to God, that a lie in relation to it met with stern judgment.

J.T. Just so; and in Luke the Lord's teaching would show that if we have temporal things, we are to use them in view of the future. The world uses money in view of the present, to add to self here, whereas the "unjust steward" used what came to his hand in view of the future; the Lord using what he did to teach us to use temporal things in relation to what is eternal. Luke speaks much of money, especially after chapter 15.

Ques. Would this baggage be like the systematising of certain features of the truth, possibly to the point of naming it, such as the naming of denominations today?

J.T. Yes; such names are marks of the world.

A.R. Does the sign, which Ezekiel becomes, represent the faithfulness of God, appealing to Israel as a nation before they go into captivity?

J.T. Just so; it is a testimony to them beforehand; and nothing appeals to and affects one more, in reading the prophets, than the pains taken by Jehovah through His prophets, bringing things to bear upon the people from many different viewpoints; using so many different similes, and symbols; resorting to such a variety of things in order to get at them, so that they might judge themselves.

A.N.W. So that if they refuse to hear they are given opportunity to see. All this is to be done in their sight.

J.T. The verse reads, "In their sight shalt thou bear it upon thy shoulder, and carry it forth in the dark; thou shalt cover thy face, and thou shalt not see the ground: for I have appointed thee for a sign unto the house of Israel" Ezekiel 12:6. It is a characteristic of the captive. He is not showing himself He depicts the shame of such circumstances.

A.R. Does John's gospel fit in with Ezekiel, in that he employs signs? "This beginning of signs did Jesus in Cana of Galilee", John 2:11.

J.T. Quite so. It marks his ministry. The other evangelists are marked by works of power -- miracles -- but John confines himself to the word "sign" in his gospel; and then in Revelation it is the same thought -- "Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to him, to show to his bondmen what must shortly take place; and he signified it", Revelation 1:1. It is presented by signs and symbols by His angel through His bondman John. Signs are a feature of John's ministry.

Ques. Do you regard this sign as partly ironic and partly right? Would the captive's baggage be ironic, and the hiding, what the saints should be doing today?

J.T. The whole thing is a sign as to what would mark an ordinary captive. It says in verse 7: "And I did so as I was commanded: I brought forth my baggage by day, as a captive's baggage, and in the even I digged through the wall with my hand; I brought it forth in the dark, and bore it upon my shoulder, in their sight. And in the morning the word of Jehovah came unto me, saying, Son of man, hath not the house of Israel, the rebellious house, said unto thee, What doest thou? Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord Jehovah: This burden concerneth the prince in Jerusalem, and all the house of Israel that are among them. Say, I am your sign: as I have done, so shall it be done unto them: they shall go into exile, into captivity. And the prince that is among them shall bear upon his shoulder in the

dark, and shall go forth; they shall dig through the wall to carry out thereby; he shall cover his face, that he see not the land with his eyes. And I will spread my net upon him, and he shall be taken in my snare; and I will bring him to Babylon to the land of the Chaldeans" (Ezekiel 12:7 - 13).

What Ezekiel did as a sign, was just what happened to Zedekiah later; a most humiliating thing for a man of such dignity. Christendom in the same sense has become captive. The Roman power captivated christianity; that is what is meant. And all this baggage -- this paraphernalia that we get today in the form of cathedrals and other things already mentioned -- would correspond to the captive's baggage. Spiritually the whole position is most humiliating and degrading.

J.S. In Luke 10, the seventy went out as being free from every burden.

J.T. They were to carry nothing. They had no captive's baggage; they were representative of Christ. "When I sent you without purse and scrip and sandals, did ye lack anything?" Luke 22:35. So that the more baggage we have of this kind, the more we show that we are subservient to the world. We have to comply to the world's requirements. What belonged to the people in Jerusalem is now in Babylon.

J.S. Showing that the glory has been entirely lost sight of, and hence all these accoutrements are outside.

J.T. Yes. That is the lesson in chapter 12, and then what follows would go with it. What followed upon the Romish captivity of christianity was false prophesying -- a system of man-made ministry, especially from the time of Constantine. He himself had to do with the formulation of the creed. Think of the emperor himself having to do with it! The very councils were a testimony to the captivity of the church! Think of an unbaptised man -- possibly unconverted --

a murderer really -- presiding at the christian councils! Thus in chapter 13, as I said, you have a system of false prophets and false prophetesses, too. Jezebel herself (Revelation 2:20), was a false prophetess.

A.R. Did the judaising teachers introduce the idea of baggage, in trying to bring the saints back to circumcision?

J.T. I think that would be the thought. Under the Roman emperors there was complete captivation of christianity; and concurrently with that, there has been introduced the system of false prophecy -- persons assuming to be prophets who are not prophets in the true sense.

J.S. Is not christendom today full of false prophets and prophetesses?

J.T. That followed historically; chapter 13 presents that feature. The conditions are seen to be so bad that there is no hope. Jehovah would have spared Sodom for ten righteous persons, bad as it was; but there is no hope for Jerusalem here. If Noah, Daniel and Job were there, they could only save themselves by their righteousness. That seems to me to be very much like conditions under Jezebel. The position is given up. There is no hope at all.

R.W.S. Why is this ministry given to the captivity here? At the last reading, we noted that Ezekiel was in Jerusalem, but now he is taken back in spirit to Chaldea, and gives this ministry there; "And the Spirit lifted me up, and brought me in the vision by the Spirit of God into Chaldea, to them of the captivity; and the vision that I had seen went up from me. And I spoke unto them of the captivity all the things that Jehovah had shewn me" (Ezekiel 11:24, 25).

J.T. The captivity of Jerusalem had not yet actually occurred, so the people there were ministered to. It is a ministry to them, but calling attention to what is about to happen to the city. It is in vision, of course.

During the vision the prophet is transferred by the Spirit into Chaldea. Then the vision went up from him and he spoke of it to those of the captivity. The actual testimony of the prophet would reach all in this way.

It says, "And the word of Jehovah came unto me, saying, Son of man, thou dwellest in the midst of a rebellious house, which have eyes to see, and see not, which have ears to hear, and hear not; for they are a rebellious house" (Ezekiel 12:1, 2). His ministry is to the rebellious house. In chapter 14 we have: "And there came certain of the elders of Israel unto me, and sat before me. And the word of Jehovah came unto me, saying, Son of man, these men have set up their idols in their heart, and put the stumbling-block of their iniquity before their face: should I be inquired of at all by them?" Ezekiel 14:1 - 3. Here we are in the presence of the representatives of Israel -- the elders.

C.A.M. The matter seems to become intensely individual; the citing of these men who could only save themselves, would seem to make it a very strenuous matter, and intensely individual!

J.T. Yes; and I think that if we apply the prophetic part of this to the history of the assembly, we shall see how the captivity is followed by a system of false prophecy; by a ministry that is false, as seen in chapter 13; so we have in verse 8: "Therefore thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Because ye speak vanity, and have seen lies, therefore behold, I am against you, saith the Lord Jehovah. And my hand shall be against the prophets that see vanity and that divine lies: they shall not be in the council of my people, neither shall they be written in the register of the house of Israel, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the Lord Jehovah. Because, yea because they have seduced my people, saying, Peace! and there is no peace; and one buildeth up a wall, and lo, they daub it with untempered mortar -- say unto them

which daub it with untempered mortar that it shall fall; there shall be an overflowing rain, and ye, O great hailstones, shall fall, and a stormy wind shall burst forth. And lo, when the wall is fallen, shall it not be said unto you, Where is the daubing with which ye have daubed it? Therefore thus saith the Lord Jehovah: I will cause to burst forth a stormy wind in my fury; and there shall be an overflowing rain in mine anger, and hailstones in fury for utter destruction" (Ezekiel 13:8 - 13).

It seems to me, as having an application to our times or to the history of the assembly, that the captivity was followed by the establishment of a false system of teaching, both in men and women. Then in chapter 14 we have a condition that is so bad that no one can influence for good or save anyone but himself by his own righteousness. But they were building; there was a building going on in connection with that system, "And lo, when the wall is fallen, shall it not be said unto you, Where is the daubing with which ye have daubed it?" Ezekiel 13:12. That, we might say, is over against the real building of the house of God by the Spirit. That sort of thing had gone on, and it is to be tested, and I have no doubt that God has brought one scourge after another in the history of christendom to bring some back to righteousness. So that the Saracens and the Mohammedans, for instance, were allowed to come in, in the public history of christianity to almost overrun christendom. God, in faithfulness, allowed that, in order to bring some to repentance, as it says in chapter 13: "Therefore thus saith the Lord Jehovah: I will cause to burst forth a stormy wind in my fury; and there shall be an overflowing rain in mine anger, and hail-stones in fury for utter destruction. And I will break down the wall that ye have daubed with untempered mortar, and bring it down to the ground, so that the foundation thereof shall be discovered; and it shall fall, and ye shall be destroyed in the midst thereof; and ye shall know that I am Jehovah" (Ezekiel 13:13, 14).

It seems to me that there is a remarkable analogy there to what has transpired in the public history of christianity.

Ques. Would the words, "untempered mortar", used to hold the parts together, be in contrast to the idea of tempering in 1 Corinthians 12:24, "But God has tempered the body together"?

J.T. That is the contrast. This untempered mortar is the false thing; it is very much like the slime that was used for mortar at the building of the tower of Babel. It is the same sort of thing that goes on here. It is the whole Babylonish system that has been built up, according to the history we have, since the captivity by the Romans; there is the false system of teaching and the building attached to it, and then the terrible scourges that have followed, which are premonitory of the final judgment.

J.H.E. How faithful of God to bring the wall down, to discover that the foundations were not right!

J.T. Yes; 2 Timothy 2:19 speaks of the firm foundation of God that stands. That is in contrast to this foundation that does not stand.

J.S. Would the untempered mortar be like the doctrines of today that cannot hold the sects together?

J.T. That is the idea; the so-called councils and the hierarchy and all that kind of thing which was designed of man to hold things together; but God brought scourge after scourge to show there is no true foundation, and presently the whole thing will be destroyed. I think it is well to see that, and then the terrible consequences which follow in chapter 14; the state of things being such that men like Noah, Daniel, or Job could only save their own souls. They could not have done so much as could have been done in Sodom in Abraham's time.

Ques. Does the plain of Ono, referred to in Nehemiah, enter into chapter 14 -- the idea of compromise?

These elders sit down and try to find out what is the mind of God.

J.T. In a certain way, for they are not judging themselves. They are, no doubt, under pressure. "And there came certain of the elders of Israel unto me, and sat before me". Ezekiel 14:1. They are ready to listen to the prophet. "And the word of Jehovah came unto me, saying, Son of man, these men have set up their idols in their heart, and put the stumbling-block of their iniquity before their face: should I be inquired of at all by them? Therefore speak to them, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Every man of the house of Israel that setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumbling-block of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to the prophet, I Jehovah will answer him according to this, according to the multitude of his idols: that I may take the house of Israel by their own heart, because they are all estranged from me through their idols" (Ezekiel 14:2 - 5).

There is no answer from God in spite of their inquiry.

It is important to see that in these chapters there is an analogy to what is current today, so that we may get practical gain out of them. We want to get gain for our souls. These scriptures refer to the history of the assembly, and chapter 14 is a condition of things that is irremediable. Even men like Noah, Daniel and Job, in such circumstances, could do nothing but save their own souls. No doubt there were saints right through the Middle Ages that did save their souls by faithfulness, but Jezebel being allowed, there was no hope. Even the Reformation did not change the position in this sense. God did much through it, making way for the remnant, but the judgment on the professing body remains.

J.S. So eventually it will end up in the Laodicean condition which the Lord will spue out of His mouth.

A.R. Revelation 18 says Babylon has fallen, and God appeals to the saints: "Come out of her, my people" Revelation 18:4.

I suppose this would be an invitation to leave the thing, would it not?

J.T. Yes. There were those that saved themselves, morally, at least, right through from the very outset of the captivity, through their righteousness; that is what counted. The ecclesiastical system was hopelessly involved. This section contemplates the glory having departed from Jerusalem; the state of things that ensued is in mind. But in our times it is what has come down in the history of the assembly. The condition has become hopeless. And then in chapter 15 we have stated the uselessness of the wood of the vine. What is a merely nominal christian more than a Mohammedan or a Hindu? He is not a bit better. Mere nominal christianity has no value in itself. The wood of the vine is of no value unless it bears fruit. Nominal christianity in itself has become a worldly religion on the same level as Mohammedanism. What really differs is the new man, and that is connected with another order of things; it is a new creation.

G.MacP. Is this what the apostle had in his mind when he said: "Let every one who names the name of the Lord withdraw from iniquity", 2 Timothy 2:19? The system itself was under judgment.

J.T. Quite so.

R.W.S. The end of all this is given in verse 4 of chapter 15: "Behold, it is given to the fire for fuel: the fire consumeth both the ends of it, and the midst of it is burned" Ezekiel 15:4.

J.T. That is very striking. The question of humanity comes out in the history of the assembly. The so-called ministers, the priests and nuns and the like take up a religious attitude. But what is the humanity underlying it? Is it the natural man or the new man? Jude says of them, "These are they who set themselves apart, natural men, not having the Spirit" (Jude 19). What is taught in the chapter before us is, that unless there is real fruit for God the profession of christianity is

of no value at all, any more than Mohammedanism, for instance.

J.S. Except that they are much more responsible.

J.T. Exactly; but as regards the wood, what is it? "Son of man, what is the wood of the vine more than any wood, the vine-branch, which is among the trees of the forest? Shall wood be taken thereof to do any work? or will men take a pin of it to hang any vessel thereon? Behold, it is given to the fire for fuel" (Ezekiel 15:2 - 4). It is a very striking figure.

Ques. The beast and the false prophet, who represent the heading up of this system, are cast into the lake of fire. Is that the final public judgment?

J.T. That is very striking. That gives particular force to the meaning of the fire, undoubtedly. That sort of humanity has not been helped by christianity.

W.R. Does Simeon take on the character of the new man in the second chapter of Luke's gospel? He holds the Babe in his arms.

J.T. That is the thought exactly. The new man is the only hope now. And God has graciously brought that in, as seen in the epistles to the Colossians and the Ephesians.

Rem. Christendom expects special favours from God; whereas, these and other scriptures show that God is against it.

J.T. Exactly; Israel had the place of the vine, but there was nothing there for God; it is judged and burned. Now christendom has taken that place according to Romans, but it is only fit for the fire. There is no fruit and the wood is of no use. You cannot make anything out of the wood of the vine. It is only of value as bearing fruit (compare John 15).

A.R. Perhaps the contrast to what you are saying is seen in Aaron's rod as laid up before Jehovah; it budded and blossomed and ripened almonds in contrast to the other eleven rods.

J.T. It was the only rod of real value in that sense, that is, as representing true priesthood.

Chapter 16 is the history of Jerusalem from the outset; it goes back to the beginning -- what Jehovah had been to her. As applied to ourselves, it is what God was to the assembly in the early days; and, alas! what the result has been; which corresponds to what we have been saying. It is the practical, or responsible, history of christendom. There was nothing but corruption, utter faithlessness on the part of her who was so highly favoured and cared for and ornamented by God. So that she corresponds with what we have just said, that is, the wood of the fruitless vine, as compared with Sodom and Samaria. She is just on the same level. At one time, she would not take their names into her mouth in pride; but now God says, You are just on that level. Sodom and Samaria are looked at as her sisters. It is the profession as corrupt, viewed in this light. The marital relation with God must be abandoned. She is utterly unfaithful. That is what chapter 16 means, but with the beautiful promise at the end that she is to be restored on the principle of the covenant. "Nevertheless I will remember my covenant with thee in the days of thy youth, and I will establish unto thee an everlasting covenant. And thou shalt remember thy ways, and be confounded, when thou shalt receive thy sisters who are older than thou, together with those who are younger than thou; for I will give them unto thee for daughters, but not by virtue of thy covenant. And I will establish my covenant with thee, and thou shalt know that I am Jehovah; that thou mayest remember, and be ashamed, and no more open thy mouth because of thy confusion, when I forgive thee all that thou hast done, saith the Lord Jehovah" (Ezekiel 16:60 - 63).

I think it is a beautiful ending of a long chapter, beginning with what the assembly was in its brightest days. I suppose the ministry of the twelve would refer

to Israel as a whole, but this is Jerusalem. It is not simply the church of Pentecost; but Paul's church, I think, would be the analogy in christianity. How beautifully ornamented she was, when God took her up and made a covenant with her! It was a time of love and He covenanted with her, and said, "and thou becamest mine" Ezekiel 16:8. It seems to bring out the place the Lord's supper has in the history of the assembly as seen in Paul's ministry; the public result, on the other hand, is dreadful unfaithfulness, so that she is compared with Sodom and Samaria.

A.B.P. Would this beginning, then, be the assembly as seen in Antioch?

J.T. I think that is the way we may look at it. It not Israel brought out of Egypt; it is Jerusalem -- the most delightful and ornamental side of the position -- and what God effected there.

J.S. The epistle to Ephesians would give us the heavenly ornamentation.

J.T. That is what I was thinking. That is why I think it is Jerusalem here in contrast to the idea of Israel. The elders of Israel came to the prophet in the beginning of chapter 14, but this is Jerusalem; that is, it is the brightest and best side of Israel's history. Applied to the present time, God wrought in love, beautifying the assembly wonderfully, but this is the public result down here.

Rem. God had already spoken through the prophet to Israel in chapter 12, and then to the prophets, and then to the prophetesses, and then to the elders of Israel, and now to Jerusalem.

J.T. It is the best side of the position, the brightest and best side of the assembly's position that is in mind in this chapter. Paul brought out in his ministry, in a peculiar way, the love that was lavished upon her.

Ques. Is this covenant made with the remnant at the end?

J.T. That is the way it is stated. First it says, "I will remember my covenant with thee in the days of thy youth, and I will establish unto thee an everlasting covenant" (Ezekiel 16:60). It seems to me that it applies, typically, to Paul's ministry in relation to the Lord's supper; how the ministry comes into that. It is not so much a question of the new covenant or of the old one that was given at Sinai, but rather the idea of a covenant that God made with the saints; how His love is brought to the attention of the saints through Paul's ministry, and then we see the public consequences of unfaithfulness in the whole chapter, and at the end the promise of recovery. This promise is very applicable in our own times.

Ques. Would we get the force of that in 1 Corinthians 11? There seems to have been a falling off in regard to the Supper; whereas the apostle says he received it from the Lord, emphasising the freshness of the Lord's love.

J.T. Quite so; the Supper was celebrated from the outset, but it was not seen in relation to the assembly. The idea of the covenant was not stressed in the ministry of the twelve; it is developed in Paul's ministry.

Ques. Would not the whole chapter help us to be very humble as to the conditions that have prevailed since Paul went off the scene?

J.T. I think that is the lesson; that we might see what has been expended on the assembly, particularly in Paul's ministry. We are apt to regard this as referring to the beginning of Israel's history, but it is Jerusalem that is in mind; typically the brightest and best in the history of the assembly, which would involve the full disclosure of the truth through Paul.

A.N.W. Would you say a word about the name Lord Jehovah, in which He repeatedly presents Himself in these chapters? What is the significance of the title?

J.T. It is Adonai. It is a name of God; authority expressed alongside the covenant name. 2 Corinthians 3

carries the thought, perhaps as concretely as any passage we can get. There the authority of the Lord is allied with the ministry.

A.R. Does the end of the chapter suggest that God remains true to Himself in spite of the unfaithfulness of the church? He says, "Nevertheless I will remember my covenant with thee" Ezekiel 16:60.

J.T. That shows His faithfulness; "and I will establish unto thee an everlasting covenant"; meaning that it goes through. That is very comforting! We are now on the ground of the covenant that carries us through all time.

W.R. Would you say that many who fell out in the early days of the recovery, one hundred years ago or so, were not prepared to take on the covenant?

J.T. That is true. God is faithful on His side, and He has established a covenant; not only for time, but an everlasting one. He will carry us through on the best terms. It is a very comforting thought.

R.W.S. Would the word "youth" being mentioned here suggest how short-lived assembly fidelity was, even in the apostle's day? He saw the deflection coming in.

J.T. The greatest and very best assembly -- the greatest result of his work -- was Ephesus. It was with Ephesus the Lord began when He says in Revelation, "I have against thee that thou hast left thy first love" Revelation 2:4, showing how short-lived the result was. For Paul says, all they that are in Asia have turned away from me. The love of union -- the real personal affection of the assembly thus viewed -- lapsed very early.

Ques. The breaking of bread was neglected for many centuries, was it not?

J.T. Exactly. The state for it was not there. In stressing the lordship of Christ in the epistles to Corinth, Paul was seeking to promote and maintain assembly conditions suitable for the Supper. He also stressed fellowship and the faithfulness of God. "God is faithful,

by whom ye have been called into the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord", 1 Corinthians 1:9. That thought runs through the two epistles. So the assembly under Paul had an excellent start. It could not have had a better, but how quickly it lapsed, not only in Corinth, but in Ephesus! It would seem that almost as soon as he left Ephesus, the personal touch was lost! "All who are in Asia ... have turned away from me". 2 Timothy 1:15.

A.F.M. This passage (verses 60 - 63) must involve that great depths are reached in repentance to enable Jehovah to make overtures to them in regard of the covenant.

J.T. He is asserting His own faithfulness to His covenant. And then He will make an everlasting one which will carry us right through. God is faithful; that is how 1 Corinthians begins. God is true to His own engagements, but then He goes beyond that and says, I will make an everlasting covenant with you.

A.R. Would the knowledge of the everlasting covenant help us to depend on God as long as the assembly is here on earth, knowing that He will be true to His promise?

J.T. That is the one side of the position; He is faithful. But He goes on to an everlasting covenant.

A.B.P. Do the last two verses of chapter 16 suggest the proper attitude of the saints, considering the public breakdown, so that we should go on in shamefacedness and humility?

J.T. "And I will establish my covenant with thee, and thou shalt know that I am Jehovah; that thou mayest remember, and be ashamed, and no more open thy mouth because of thy confusion, when I forgive thee all that thou hast done, saith the Lord Jehovah" (Ezekiel 16:62, 63). It seems to bring home to us the idea of humiliation in the light of past history. After all, whatever we are or have, God has effected it. And He is going beyond that to an everlasting covenant, which, as I said, is very assuring -- that He will take us right through.

Rem. And especially in view of the fact that the sin committed was worse than Sodom and Samaria. It is a most remarkable thing.

J.T. Jerusalem's sin was not worse than the history of the assembly; "the depths of Satan" Revelation 2:24. There is really no worse conduct than that of the public assembly.

Rem. Mr. Darby has a reference to Deuteronomy 21, where the elders of the city prayed for forgiveness on the ground of sacrifice.

J.T. Yes. There is a note on the word "forgive", or "make atonement for", as in Deuteronomy 21:8. All is therefore on the most solid basis for Jerusalem.

And then, after this great ministry of chapter 16 which we have sought to apply, carrying it down to our own times, to an everlasting covenant, chapter 17 brings in a "riddle" and the allusion is to Babylon: "And the word of Jehovah came unto me, saying, Son of man, put forth a riddle, and speak a parable unto the house of Israel, and say, Thus saith the Lord Jehovah: A great eagle with great wings, long-pinioned, full of feathers, which was of divers colours, came unto Lebanon, and took the highest branch of the cedar. He cropped off the top of its young shoots, and carried it into a merchant's land; he set it in a city of traders. And he took of the seed of the land, and planted it in a fruitful field; he placed it by great waters, he set it as a willow tree. And it grew, and became a spreading vine of low stature, so that its branches should turn toward him, and the roots thereof be under him; and it became a vine, and brought forth branches, and shot forth sprigs. And there was another great eagle with great wings and many feathers; and behold, from the beds of her plantation, this vine did bend her roots unto him and shot forth her branches toward him, that he might water it. It was planted in a good field by many waters, that it might bring forth branches and bear fruit, that it might be a noble vine. Say, Thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Shall it prosper? Shall he not

pull up its roots, and cut off its fruit, that it may wither? All its fresh sprouting leaves shall wither, even without a great arm and many people to pluck it up by its roots. And behold, being planted, shall it prosper? shall it not utterly wither when the east wind toucheth it? It shall wither in the beds where it grew" (Ezekiel 17:1 - 10).

And then we are told the king of Babylon and Pharaoh are in mind; that is, these great powers look at Israel from their point of view, to see what they can make out of it for themselves; showing that the powers of this world would endeavour to reap from whatever there is of God. We must not overlook that.

And then we have in chapter 18, "What mean ye, ye who use this proverb of the land of Israel, saying, The fathers eat sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge? As I live, saith the Lord Jehovah, ye shall not have any more to use this proverb in Israel. Behold, all the souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die" (Ezekiel 18:2 - 4).

Now we come to a point where everyone is responsible. Let us not be talking of inherited sin or inherited judgment! Whatever happens to me is because of what I am, so that I have to see to myself. That seems to be the lesson of chapter 18; not to bend towards Babylon or Egypt, but to see to myself as responsible individually before God.

Ques. Is there a link between chapters 17 and 18?

J.T. I think so. "All the souls are mine", God says. At the present time certain governments of the world are making a great deal of their subjects. They are making their subjects mere pawns for their own use, but God says, They are all mine; every one is mine, and the soul that sinneth it shall die. The thing for us is to be in right relations with God in the midst of all these things.

Ques. Do you connect chapter 17 with Zedekiah in chapter 12 -- the carrying away of the baggage?

J.T. Yes. Zedekiah is the one in mind, but we are bringing the teaching down to ourselves; and in chapter 17, after the wonderful ministry of chapter 16 looking to recovery in an everlasting covenant, we have the great powers of the world endeavouring to have this vine look toward them, to contribute to their greatness. It was for God, but they want to make it yield something for themselves. That seems to be the lesson of chapter 17.

J.S. Is it commercialism?

J.T. Exactly; each of these great monarchs makes as much as he can out of this vine.

A.B.P. Does not John, in chapter 9 of his gospel, in indicating the recovery of the truth of sonship, suggest that the disciples were hindered by this thought of the sins of the fathers being visited on the children? The disciples asked, "who sinned, this man or his parents, that he should be born blind?" (John 9:2).

J.T. Quite so; that is the point raised here. "Neither has this man sinned nor his parents, but that the works of God should be manifested in him" (John 9:3). The Lord selected this man for a purpose. I must recognise God's claims. "All the souls are mine", God says Ezekiel 18:4.

A.B.P. Does not the teaching of John 9 apply practically to the present day?

J.T. Yes; the man in that chapter is an example. He stands up by himself. He has not a bit of support from anyone, not even from his parents. That is the man, as cast out, that the Lord takes up. He represents the only man that will stand.

E.E.H. Is that Timothy's line: "Let every one who names the name of the Lord withdraw from iniquity", 2 Timothy 2:19?

J.T. Yes. John 9 is a very concrete example of one who stands in the presence of opposition, excommunicated. No one supported him at all, not even his parents, but the Lord took him up.

Ques. Job, Ezekiel and Jeremiah would be in good company with that man in John 9, would they not?

J.T. Just so. A man in whom the works of God are manifested. The works of God manifested in one person!

J.S. He finishes up as a worshipper!

Ques. Would the chapter we are considering show that christians should avoid all appearance of being national?

J.T. It is a question here of God's rights. "All the souls are mine", and "the soul that sinneth, it shall die" Ezekiel 18:4. Individual responsibility to God is stressed.

C.A.M. It is remarkable that John 9 goes back to the very beginning: "One thing I know, that, being blind before, now I see" (John 9:25). It is really like the "new man", is it not?

J.T. All that he says shows that he is, in principle, a new man. He is so different!

Ques. Do you think there might be a prophetic view in Paul in relation to "the powers that be", in that Felix wanted him to lean towards him, whereas Paul refused? In desiring a bribe, he wanted Paul's branches, as it were, to lean towards him.

J.T. I have no doubt that the Roman emperor Constantine wanted the assembly to lean towards him. Instead of destroying the christians, he evidently decided that he could use them.

Rem. Do you get the same idea with Micah in Judges 17? Micah said, "Now I know that Jehovah will do me good, because I have the Levite for priest" Judges 17:13.

J.T. Yes; he had a Levite as priest in his house to serve his idolatrous system, and assumed, on that account, that Jehovah would do him good.

Rem. Referring again to Felix: he says, "I will send for thee; hoping at the same time that money would be given him by Paul", Acts 24:25, 26.

J.T. He intended to make something out of the matter. It is an apt incident to apply here, for he represents the powers that be as making something out of the people of God.

A.N.W. Pharaoh, too, used God's people for his own ends, and God claimed them from him, saying, "Let my son go, that he may serve me" Exodus 4:23.

R.W.S. What is this "lamentation" in Ezekiel 19:14?

J.T. The teaching in the parable, or simile, is "for the princes of Israel". The chapter begins and ends with it. There is no ruler of the house of David (verse 14). The want of a ruler and of true rule among the people of God is great today. Of course, Christ is the true Ruler, but He has been displaced, and the public body is wanting of true rule. The Pope might say he is the ruler, but he is not. The whole position as regards rule is withered up, so it says at the end of the chapter, "And now it is planted in the wilderness, in a dry and thirsty ground; and a fire is gone out of a rod of its branches, which hath devoured its fruit; so that it hath no strong rod to be a sceptre for ruling" (Ezekiel 19:13, 14).

J.S. They have lost all sense of connection with heaven.

J.T. I think that is it. Christ is displaced. It is a wilderness position. Babylon is seen as a wilderness. There are no springs there to produce anything for God; that is the position.

A.R. Like Daniel's vision; the toes were mixed with iron and clay.

J.T. That is what the idea of rule has come to. Outwardly there is none to bear rule in the house of God.

Ques. Who are the lioness and the two whelps?

J.T. They would represent Israel and such as the princes that had arisen in Israel. There had been Zedekiah and his like, but there are none now. The chapter finishes with that; there is no branch, no rod, to be a sceptre for rule. And the word for this is "lamentation". It is the lamentation with which the chapter began, concerning the princes, but in verse 14 it says, "This is a lamentation, and shall be for a lamentation" Ezekiel 19:14. There is nothing to follow it in the public sense. We

may thank God for anyone who laments. That is a saving element, I believe.

W.F.K. Should we lament the position of the assembly today?

J.T. I think that is the idea. God furnishes the lamentation for us and we should take it up.

W.F.K. It has moved away from the lordship of Christ.

J.T. That is right. You feel there is no one to rule for God. Every true christian feels it.

N.P. Do we get a similar thought in Judges? "In those days there was no king in Israel; every man did what was right in his own eyes" (Judges 21:25).

J.T. Exactly. Here the "lioness" refers to Israel, and she produced rulers, but now she is failing to do so. The whole position in this sense is withered up.

R.W.S. The Lord lamented, weeping over Jerusalem.

J.T. The principle of lamenting is important in the history of the testimony. It is strikingly seen in relation to Josiah. There was more lamentation for him than for any of the other kings. This chapter alludes to his posterity. The line died out. Zedekiah was the last, and there was nothing there for God. Of course this does not interfere with Matthew 1, where the royal line is seen as having come down and is established in Christ.

A.B.P. Is there some significance in the lamentation being introduced in the early part of Matthew, the kingly gospel? It says, "great lamentation: Rachel weeping" (Matthew 2:18).

J.T. I am sure there is. The link with Rachel, mother of the son of his father's right hand, is striking. This chapter is the end of the section which has been before us and it ends with a lamentation. We shall get other features as we go on. We should never tire of keeping the truth in a variety of phases before us so that we might be affected by it.

READINGS ON EZEKIEL (5)

Ezekiel 20:1 - 9, 33 - 44; Ezekiel 24:15 - 27

J.T. It is thought that we should at this time cover the section from chapters 20 to 24. There is a correspondence between chapters 16 and 20, a noteworthy distinction, however, being that chapter 16 deals with Jerusalem, enlarging upon the divine service in taking her up, beautifying her, and entering into marriage relation with her, and then stresses in great detail her unfaithfulness; whereas in chapter 20 it is the nation, taken up from Egypt, to stress its history from the side of the incorrigibleness of the flesh. The chapter takes up the history in sections: they began to sin in Egypt -- even before they entered the wilderness they sinned; and then as in the wilderness they sinned (the wilderness period being enlarged upon), and then they sinned as in the land; as much as to say that the flesh is incorrigible under all circumstances. It becomes a most important chapter in the book from that point of view.

Another thing which we should bear in mind in a practical way, is that this chapter calls upon Ezekiel to judge, as does also chapter 22. Verse 3 of chapter 20 says, "Son of man, speak unto the elders of Israel", and then in verse 4, "Wilt thou judge them, wilt thou judge, son of man?" Ezekiel 20:3,4. Also in verse 2 of chapter 22: "And thou, son of man, wilt thou judge, wilt thou judge the bloody city?" Ezekiel 22:2. It seems as though these verses are a call to us now to have a judgment as to the whole professing position. God has judged it, but is there any one in accord with His mind? "Wilt thou judge them?" It would seem as if God, as acting judicially, brings His people, however few, into accord with His mind. We read in Revelation 18:20, "for God has judged your judgment upon her".

In chapter 21 we have Nebuchadnezzar as an instrument of judgment; he is relentless! In chapter 22 we have

the judgment of what was in the city; right through the chapter we find the expression "in thee". It is a matter of what was done in the city; not simply what the city did, but what was done in it. And then chapter 23 treats of Oholah and Oholibah, and corresponds to Jezebel; that is, it is the analogy of two corrupt women, daughters of one mother. It is the utter unfaithfulness of Israel, viewed now in its divided position in the two kingdoms, and both utterly and equally unfaithful to God in their moral relationship. Then finally, in chapter 24, the word as to the destruction of the temple in the city, the desire of their eyes as symbolised in Ezekiel's wife. It prefigures the sorrow which would come upon them with the destruction of the system which was the desire of the eyes of the godly; it was an adornment in the eyes of Israel, and what sorrow it would be to them to have it destroyed. The disciples said, "Teacher, see what stones and what buildings!" Mark 13:1. They called the Lord's attention to the temple. It had a great place in their eyes, but all should be destroyed.

C.A.M. Chapter 16 refers to a son of origin, does it not? It is somewhat similar to the word, "Behold, in iniquity was I brought forth, and in sin did my mother conceive me", Psalm 51:5. And the chapters which follow give the workings of the flesh in every place?

J.T. Yes. The history of the people, from the standpoint of their inherent guilt, showed itself in every circumstance, even in Egypt. Chapter 20 says, "Thus saith the Lord Jehovah: In the day when I chose Israel, and lifted up my hand unto the seed of the house of Jacob, and made myself known unto them in the land of Egypt, when I lifted up my hand unto them, saying, I am Jehovah your God, in that day I lifted up my hand unto them, to bring them out of the land of Egypt into a land that I had espied for them, flowing with milk and honey, which is the ornament of all

lands; and I said unto them, Cast ye away every man the abominations of his eyes, and defile not yourselves with the idols of Egypt ... But they rebelled against me ... neither did they forsake the idols of Egypt" (Ezekiel 20:5 - 8). That is a most striking thing. Before the law is given, by which is the knowledge of sin, while they were still in Egypt, they sinned idolatrously.

J.S. Is this said so that we might learn what is set forth in the New Testament -- "flesh and blood cannot inherit God's kingdom", (1 Corinthians 15:50)?

J.T. That is the thought. It is enlarged on in Romans and other portions of the New Testament, as, for instance, "by law is knowledge of sin", Romans 3:20. The law peculiarly brought out what was there, but this is more extended than that. It is the full picture, even before the law was given; before they were actually taken out of Egypt, they were sinning -- committing idolatry and rebelling.

Ques. Do divine Persons, in Their service in the gospel, teach us very early the thought of having a judgment according to God?

J.T. That is the thought in this section; to draw us into accord with the mind of God about sin, and what the flesh is under all circumstances. It seems to underlie Israel being taken up by God, to portray this whole question palpably before the eyes of the universe; that race has been taken up for this purpose; and that, I believe, accounts for the extraordinariness of their character, how they obtained that character, and how they continue in it to the very end, returning now unchanged to the land. But then, it is that everyone might look into his own heart and realise that is just what we all are after the flesh. It is incorrigible.

A.F.M. It would serve as a standard of what we are as lawless.

J.T. Yes. That comes out in the chapter. What they were manifested itself in Egypt before the law was given. God said, "Then I thought to pour out

my fury upon them, so as to accomplish mine anger against them in the midst of the land of Egypt" (Ezekiel 20:8). He actually thought of doing it there before He brought them out, but He says, "But I wrought for my name's sake". That is the delivering side, upon which to rest; that God acts from His own point of view and defers judgment. "But I wrought for my name's sake, that it" (His name) "should not be profaned in the sight of the nations among whom they were, in whose sight I had made myself known unto them in bringing them forth out of the land of Egypt" Ezekiel 20:9.

Ques. Would you also say that there is a suggestion here as to those to whom the gospel should be preached?

J.T. How you present the truth is a question of levitical skill. This teaching would help in understanding the working of sin in man. Of course, from the beginning the devil sinned, and he injected it into man; but this chapter shows how it works in man, so that, in preaching the gospel, we are to know what truth to present, and how far to go. It is levitical education in understanding, and is most important, for the preacher should have a true understanding of the working of sin in man. So this very long chapter is peculiarly intended to provide a full-sized picture of the working of sin in man in varied circumstances in which God was with him.

So, as we said, in Egypt Israel sinned; and then, verse 10: "And I caused them to go forth out of the land of Egypt, and brought them into the wilderness. And I gave them my statutes, and made known unto them mine ordinances, which if a man do, he shall live by them. And I also gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am Jehovah that hallow them. But the house of Israel rebelled against me in the wilderness". That is the next stage -- "they walked not in my statutes, and they rejected mine ordinances, which if a man do, he shall live by them" (Ezekiel 20:10 - 13). They rebelled

against Him in the wilderness; that is, in the presence of the laws and the statutes He had given them.

Then again, "And I also lifted up my band unto them in the wilderness, that I would not bring them into the land that I had given them, flowing with milk and honey, which is the ornament of all lands; because they rejected mine ordinances and walked not in my statutes, and profaned my sabbaths: for their heart went after their idols. But mine eye spared them so as not to destroy them, neither did I make a full end of them in the wilderness" (Ezekiel 20:15 - 17).

Then we have a second point as to the wilderness in that the children who are later brought into the land are appealed to. "And I said unto their children in the wilderness, Walk not in the statutes of your fathers" (Ezekiel 20:18). But then it goes on to say: "I lifted up my hand also unto them in the wilderness, that I would scatter them among the nations, and disperse them through the countries; because they performed not mine ordinances, and rejected my statutes, and profaned my sabbaths, and their eyes were after their fathers' idols. And I also gave them statutes that were not good, and ordinances whereby they should not live" (Ezekiel 20:23 - 25). That is, God dealt with them in a judicial way also in the wilderness.

Then it goes on to say, "When I had brought them into the land which I had lifted up my hand to give unto them, then they saw every high hill and all the thick trees, and they offered there their sacrifices, and there they presented the provocation of their offering; and there they placed their sweet savour, and there poured out their drink-offerings. And I said unto them, What is the high place whither ye go? And the name thereof is called Bamah unto this day" (Ezekiel 20:28, 29). So that they are tested in Egypt, in the wilderness, and then their children are tested in the wilderness, and now in the land, and it is all with the same result. It is a remarkable picture of the working of sin in man

as placed in favourable circumstances; not left to himself as among the heathen, but cultured, and in every way cared for by God Himself.

J.S. The law was given in the wilderness that sin might appear exceedingly sinful; in that way it was designed to help them.

J.T. Quite so; the sin was there in Egypt; then the law made it exceedingly sinful, and yet it went on.

R.W.S. Is this like Stephen's summary? He spoke of Egypt and enlarged upon the wilderness, speaking of what happened during the forty years.

J.T. Yes: Stephen's address is parallel with this. It was an indictment; an arraignment of Israel; but I think there is a wider thought here; it is Israel taken up by God, given all these advantages, and yet this is the result.

A.R. Perhaps like Romans 3, would you say? "That every mouth may be stopped, and all the world be under judgment to God", Romans 3:19.

J.T. That is the idea; so that, like Ezekiel, we are to have a judgment about it, and, of course, if we are to have a judgment about the whole world, we must begin with ourselves. What need I expect from myself? This is what I am; for I am capable of doing this very thing of which God is here presenting a full-sized picture.

W.F.K. What would you say about the inquiry of the elders in verse 3? Must they have a proper state to inquire of Jehovah?

J.T. He would not be inquired of by them on account of the things with which they were going on. We perhaps make a good deal out of what the world may do in a crisis, when war is imminent, or famine, or sickness, or the like; men turn to God and pray in the churches, but of how much value is it to God? He will not be inquired of by these elders on account of their evil history.

W.B-w. Is sin concentrated in Jerusalem in chapter 16, whereas it is more extended and universal in this chapter?

J.T. Yes; it is more extended. I think we noted at our last meeting that Jerusalem there, as applied to our own times, is typical of the assembly viewed under Paul's ministry. This is man as seen in Israel's history. The son of man is called upon to judge the whole nation in view of its history. Jeremiah gives the other side; there was something there for God, but that side is ignored here. John's ministry, viewing things abstractly, whether on the side of evil or on the side of good, helps here. This is, abstractly, Israel's sinful history. Jeremiah quotes Jehovah saying, "I remember for thee the kindness of thy youth, the love of thine espousals, when thou wentest after me in the wilderness, in a land not sown. Israel was holiness unto Jehovah, the firstfruits of his increase", Jeremiah 2:2,3. That is the other side, because God had worked in some of them and, in grace, was regarding the nation favourably on account of them. This is an abstract picture of the flesh working in them.

W.B-w. A total exposure of what the flesh is in man!

J.T. That is right. It is not a mere academic presentation of the thing; it is portrayed in the history of man covering hundreds of years, and it is before our eyes today, in this race, in this city; but then it is not in them only; it is a picture of all of us. God has taken them up to show us the thing in a most palpable way.

Rem. The flesh in us before we are converted is the same as that which comes out at times when we are in the assembly with the brethren. The flesh is unchanging in its character.

J.T. Quite so; it is the same; it is incorrigible.

J.S. John's ministry goes back to sin in its very introduction -- "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in

the wilderness, thus must the Son of man be lifted up", John 3:14.

J.T. That is a good point to bring up, because it goes right back to the origin, "for from the beginning the devil sins" (1 John 3:8); and so it is the serpent that is lifted up. It is to show the origin of sin; but it is the working of it in man that is in mind.

J.S. So the working of sin in man necessitates the incoming of the Son of man; He is in relation to man.

J.T. That is right; so that we should have a judgment about it.

W.B-w. Why is the history traced back in chapter 16 to the Amorite -- "Your mother was a Hittite, and your father an Amorite" (Ezekiel 16:45)?

J.T. Chapter 16 has the same theme as chapter 20, but with a nearer view; it is Jerusalem, which is not so extensive a history as that of Israel, but it is an extraordinary thing that, in spite of the reigns of David and Solomon, the real state of things was Amoritish; that the father was an Amorite -- of the cursed race. So that the Jewish history is really a tentative state of things to bring out what the flesh is and how patient God is.

J.T.Jr. Does Romans 8:3 apply here: "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, having sent his own Son, in likeness of flesh of sin, and for sin, has condemned sin in the flesh"?

J.T. Exactly; the whole thing is portrayed. God was waiting for this portrayal, to bring out its condemnation sacrificially in Christ. It is sin in the flesh; that is its character; that is its name in the universe before God. So that it goes on to say, "in order that the righteous requirement of the law should be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to flesh but according to Spirit" (Romans 8:4).

Ques. Do the teachings of John and of Paul coalesce in this matter of which you have been speaking?

J.T. Quite so; John gives an abstract view of it. From the beginning, he says, the devil sins; and then, "We know that every one begotten of God does not sin", 1 John 5:18. Those begotten of God are wholly cleared of it, viewed abstractly. But regarded in his actual, or mixed, condition down here the believer has sin, for 1 John 1:8 says, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us".

A.B.P. Jehovah indicates that He was prepared to commit Himself to anything that was of Himself amongst them.

J.T. Yes. Of course we know from Jeremiah's view that there were those who obeyed, as Moses and many others, and God was with them, so that we have to take this as it is. As already said, it is an abstract view in the sense that the work of God is not before us, but rather the working of the flesh, to portray it and make it palpable before our eyes.

Ques. Would the judicial attitude of God as seen in Psalm 22 show the rigid position that we should maintain in regard to the flesh?

J.T. Quite so; God forsook Christ as taking our place on the cross.

Rem. God turned His face away from Jesus judicially, and we too should have the same attitude of mind towards what is not of God.

J.T. God is seeking now to bring us to a judgment of the guilt of the world -- the religious world particularly -- so that this question, "wilt thou judge, son of man?" (Ezekiel 20:4) was perfectly answered to in Christ on the cross. He did judge them; He had a perfect judgment of the whole matter and entered into death to deal with it sacrificially. But now as we are in the midst of evil conditions, God is asking us to judge them today. As we judge this whole matter God will deal powerfully against it. That is what I think we ought to look for.

J.T.Jr. There was no power in the beginning to cast away the abominations. "Cast ye away every man

the abominations of his eyes" (Ezekiel 20:7). There is no power in the flesh to cast evil away. Must we not learn that power lies in the Spirit, as in Romans 8?

J.T. Yes; "but if, by the Spirit, ye put to death the deeds of the body, ye shall live", Romans 8:13. One important point is, to have a judgment of sin. With holy fear we should think of the Lord in the perfect judgment He had of everything as in the garden of Gethsemane: He had a true judgment always, of course, but it came out there, and He took it up sacrificially. "Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world", John 1:29. He took it up sacrificially, but He took it up as judging it; as having a thorough judgment of the whole matter.

Ques. Would the three epistles, Romans, Corinthians and Ephesians, fit in with these three sections -- Egypt, the wilderness, and Canaan? Whatever be the point reached by the people of God, sin may show itself; but the root of it is the same flesh.

J.T. Yes; it showed itself thus in the history of the assembly, and now it permeates the whole professing body, and the word is, "Wilt thou judge, son of man?" Ezekiel 20:4. The Lord is calling upon us to judge it (first in our own hearts, surely), and to see the moral reason for the forsaking of Calvary. God forsook the Lord Jesus when on the cross as dealing with the whole matter; but it is important to see that Christ had a judgment about it on the cross, equal to God's judgment, when He forsook Him.

A.B.P. To what extent did He enter into the feeling of what sin was, when in Gethsemane?

J.T. He felt and measured accurately what was there. Of course, He always maintained a judgment of sin; all His teaching involved that -- what the flesh was. The flesh is judged in His teaching, but you can understand how He felt it peculiarly as about to bear it away sacrificially in His own body on the tree.

A.F.M. The experience was summed up in the apostle's word in Romans 8:3: "God ... condemned sin in the flesh".

J.T. Quite so; "God, having sent his own Son, in likeness of flesh of sin" (it is flesh of sin), "and for sin, has condemned sin in the flesh" Romans 8:3; that is, He condemned it in the flesh of Christ on the cross. Christ became a sacrifice. He was made sin. It is an awful thought, but how we need to take into our souls what the Lord entered into. He was made sin sacrificially.

C.A.M. Would you say that this question of sin having been brought into manhood, shows where God had in mind to deal with it? When He speaks to the prophet, He says, "Son of man". Do you think that indicates that in God's mind there was One who was about to come as Son, who would solve this great question?

J.T. Exactly; it was in God's mind that it should be solved morally in man; not in a moral sense in Satan; for though the serpent is lifted up, the moral process was not in Satan; the moral process was in Man. It is sin in the flesh, according to Romans 8, that is dealt with; not sin in Satan. He will be consigned to eternal fire, but the moral process is not in him. Christ became a Man, and in Him the question of sin is thoroughly solved on the cross. Romans 7 and Romans 8 also show how it is solved in believers.

Ques. You begin to see, in the thief on the cross, the moral process in an ordinary man; and in Paul's first epistle to the Corinthians, where sin occurring in the assembly is dealt with, all is in keeping with Romans 3, Psalm 22 and Revelation 20:10. They all connect, do they not?

J.T. Quite so; the thief on the cross is an excellent example. He says, "we indeed justly", Luke 23:41. He had a true judgment of the matter. It is a judicial thought. He judged the other man as well as himself.

Rem. There is no moral issue with angels that have sinned. They are reserved for punishment.

J.T. No; there is no moral process with them at all. Their matter is settled. God has dealt with the question of sin in the flesh; it is in man.

A.B.P. Was this history, and the appraisement of what sin was, gone into by the Lord in Gethsemane, or was it more in the general thought of death and forsaking?

J.T. The Lord would have it in His mind. That was written long before, but then, it was written for us. The Lord would have this all in His mind, however, in Gethsemane; the thought of sin in the abstract way in the flesh. It is sin in the flesh under the best circumstances here, that is, in Israel, under the care of God.

A.B.P. Would it be right, in referring to the cross, to say that, although it was entered into sacrificially there, it had been fully appraised before?

J.T. That is important. The Lord had a perfect judgment of it before He took it on at the cross; in the state of His mind on the cross, there was a perfect judgment of the sin for which He was suffering.

J.S. Was it the pressure of death that was on His spirit in Gethsemane? Death, as far as we are concerned, is a penalty, but He, as laying down His life sacrificially, would feel it more keenly than any other man could.

J.T. He had a full estimate of what sin was in its enormity in the eye of God and the penalty it deserved, and that is what He felt and expressed: "Father, if thou wilt remove this cup from me: -- but then, not my will, but thine be done", Luke 22:42.

J.S. There was a pressure peculiar to Gethsemane?

J.T. Yes. Satan came there, too, which should be borne in mind. "For the ruler of the world comes, and in me he has nothing", John 14:30. There was nothing in Christ for Satan, but still he came to press the thought of death on Him. He attacked Jesus in the wilderness at the beginning of His ministry; but at the end, he

came back to press the awfulness of death upon Him, to divert Him, if possible, from the will of God. Think of the terribleness of that! He went through it, notwithstanding.

A.R. In having a judgment of sin, it is not only judging evil in the world, but judging what is in myself constitutionally. Is that right?

J.T. Yes; we are called upon to have a judgment of the thing. I think that is the word for us tonight -- "wilt thou judge, son of man?" (Ezekiel 20:4) as if Ezekiel was not thoroughly in the mind of God in relation to what he was condemning in his ministry. God has taken up the Jewish nation in this remarkable way to show to the whole universe what sin in the flesh is.

Rem. It should also help us in the view we take of our children. We may think that they do not need certain exercises because they have not been in the world, but the flesh in them is the same as in others.

J.T. "The flesh profits nothing" (John 6:63) is a mild statement. "Flesh of sin" is the full judgment of it, and the Lord Himself (one would touch it reverently) was made sin: "him who knew not sin he has made sin for us", 2 Corinthians 5:21.

A.R. Would you say what the flesh is as we are viewing it?

J.T. It is man's condition, but sin, having come into his constitution, has given character to it, hence "the mind of the flesh is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God; for neither indeed can it be" Romans 8:7. So that the process in Romans 7 brings out, "For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, good does not dwell", Romans 7:18. The mind of the flesh is death, we are also told. The instruction of Scripture throughout leads to this judgment.

Ques. Will you tell us the difference between what is natural and the flesh?

J.T. Well, sometimes they run together, but Romans 7 is the lesson for us all, as to how we reach

this chapter in our own experience. We may reach it mentally or doctrinally, as here tonight, but to reach it in our own experience requires the process, or analysis of Romans 7. Through it we reach the judgment that "in me, that is, in my flesh, good does not dwell" Romans 7:18. We need to learn that. There are very few of us who will admit, in a practical sense, that no good dwells in us.

A.R. It means its abandonment, does it not?

J.T. It does -- a total non-recognition of the flesh. It is imperative, and it can be disallowed the more readily as we see that God has dealt with the flesh judicially in Christ. So I, by the Spirit, do it also. "But if, by the Spirit, ye put to death the deeds of the body, ye shall live", Romans 8:13.

A.P.T. Is the sweet psalmist of Israel one of the Old Testament saints who learned this principle more than others?

J.T. That is right; that is what the Psalms bring out. David, I believe, is one of the best examples you can get of a man who learned it. He learned it, alas! through his failures. Psalm 51 shows that in a remarkable way, as does also Psalm 22.

F.H.L. Does not Psalm 106 in reviewing this history go back to Egypt and lead through to a doxology? "We have sinned with our fathers, we have committed iniquity, we have done wickedly. Our fathers in Egypt considered not thy wondrous works" (Psalm 106:6,7). And then it closes with the triumph of God. "Save us, Jehovah our God, and gather us from among the nations, to give thanks unto thy holy name, and to triumph in thy praise ... Blessed be Jehovah the God of Israel, from eternity and to eternity! And let all the people say, Amen! Hallelujah!" (Psalm 106:47, 48).

J.T. That shows how faith went back in the history of the people.

W.B-w. Ezekiel 20:9 says, "But I wrought for my name's sake", and then Ezekiel 20:44 says, "when

I have wrought with you for my name's sake". Would the first refer to the cross, and the second to the moral work in the saints?

J.T. I think so. "And ye shall know that I am Jehovah, when I have wrought with you for my name's sake, not according to your wicked ways, nor according to your corrupt doings, O house of Israel, saith the Lord Jehovah" (Ezekiel 20:44). That refers to God's sovereign work in recovery. I suppose verse 9 would involve the passover, for they had the passover in Egypt. That dealt with sin in the flesh in type, in view of the cross, linked, of course, with the power of God exercised in delivering Israel out of Egypt. So that God had before Him throughout, in type, the judicial termination of the flesh, but you do not get that side of the truth here. This is the actual history of sin in the flesh.

J.S. As early as Genesis 6:13, it is said, "The end of all flesh is come before me".

J.T. And so in verse 9 of our chapter, as has been remarked, God wrought for His name's sake. God could speak thus in view of Christ's death. "And when I see the blood, I will pass over you", Exodus 12:13. God could go on with them on sacrificial lines. Morally, He could not otherwise do so; He could not go on with man after the flesh as such. But in the types of Christ's atoning death the whole matter of sin was dealt with anticipatively, and hence God went on with Israel.

Rem. It is very helpful to see that application of the blood in connection with the covenant in Exodus 24, indicating that God is prepared to go on with us, not on our profession merely, but on the basis of the death of Christ.

A.R. It also speaks of them sinning in the land (Ezekiel 20:28, 29); God rebuked them for offering sacrifices on hills apart from the house of God. Would you say something about that?

J.T. That is the final feature of the indictment here, and we come to the word "Bamah", or "high place",

which, I suppose, would be seen in what was set up in the land in Jeroboam's time. He carried on that sort of thing away from Jerusalem, but it was carried on in Jerusalem, too. It is the working of sin in high places. Today it would be such as a cathedral or a church or anything that is marked off as distinctively religious above the level of the ordinary world of sin, but as contrary to the mind of God.

C.A.M. Do you think it is really worse than what is ordinary, in the sense that, being in "high places", it is really nearer Satan's domain? In Ephesians, the spirit of the ruler of the authority of the air works in the sons of disobedience. It is really above the ordinary level of everyday life.

J.T. I think that is the way to look at it. I believe idolatry was introduced in connection with the tower of Babel. There is nothing said about idolatry before the deluge; it apparently came in afterwards. It seems as if Satan took up the elevated idea in government which was introduced in Noah. The ark rested on Mount Ararat, giving the thought of elevation on earth. Before the flood nothing is said about mountains. It is primarily in connection with the ark and Noah that we get elevation in this sense.

C.A.M. So that Satan was really using an attempt by men to get into the region from which he had been cast out.

J.T. That is the idea; and he actually got there. So the book of Revelation tells us that he is to be ejected from heaven. Babel marks man's mind as ascending; the tower was to reach to heaven; not literally, but in the thought of man, who said, "let us make ourselves a name" Genesis 11:4; and then religion was attached to that, but still retaining man's will and its workings, which is always sin in principle.

A.R. What do you have in mind about government?

J.T. The idea of government was introduced in Noah. Elevation was introduced in the ark being above

and resting on the mountains of Ararat. The ark rested there; indeed, I suppose it remained there, and may have acquired a place in man's mind; at any rate, the idea of elevation was there. Hence the idea of the tower of Babel, the top of which would reach unto heaven, which represents elevation; not simply going up literally, but man's mind ascending apart from God, and Satan agitating it to that end. I apprehend he thus found a footing, through the principle of government, which involves elevation. Nimrod's kingdom began at Babel. In the history of christendom the hierarchical system is representative of the striving for elevation; climbing up. The world's glories are eclipsed by the splendours of the head of the so-called professing church.

Ques. Would you say it is professedly high and morally low?

J.T. It must be; for it is sin in high places.

C.A.M. Whereas, when God fills the universe, it will be from top to bottom.

J.T. That is right; man, as illustrated in the building of the tower of Babel, works up.

A.B.P. Is it the thing that is met by the Lord Jesus in John 4?

J.T. Quite so; "neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem" (John 4:21).

Ques. In Zechariah, the ephah is lifted up between the earth and the heavens, and the question is asked where it is to be carried, and they say to the land of Shinar. It is going back, is it not, to Babel?

J.T. Quite so; that is where it began. Babel is really the beginning of Babylon.

G.V.D. Revelation 18 speaks of the sins of Babylon reaching up to heaven.

J.T. Yes; "heaped on one another up to the heaven" Revelation 18:5.

F.H.L. Do you think as to Matthew 4, that what is being said as to the high places enters into the enemy's

attempt, which goes from the wilderness to the pinnacle of the temple and then up to the very high mountain?

J.T. Yes; that is Satan's way.

J.S. So that if light is cumulative, so is sin.

J.T. Quite so; the light of christianity is taken on by man's mind, allied with "philosophy and vain deceit" Colossians 2:8; and that is what christendom has turned to; Satan inflating it and energising men above their ordinary level.

A.R. The apostle writes to the saints at Ephesus about spiritual wickedness in heavenly places. Would that fit in with what you have here?

J.T. It would.

W.B-w. Why is Samuel linked on with Ramah (which suggests elevation) in his prophetic ministry? Would his prophetic ministry help to bring down the high places?

J.T. Quite so; by bringing in the idea of elevation according to God -- in which Samuel lived. The epistle to the Ephesians has this in view. We are blessed with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies in Christ. The apostle Paul went beyond any point Satan could reach. He went to the third heaven; there is nothing said about Satan being there; it is more the outer or sidereal side of the position he enters into, I understand.

Well, we must hasten on to the final section of the chapter, beginning with verse 33, where we come to God's intervention in the presence of all this. He says, "As I live, saith the Lord Jehovah, verily with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with fury poured out, will I reign over you" Ezekiel 20:33. I believe He means that He will reign over us in power to preclude any uprising of the flesh. He is going to act for Himself, but He will do it in such power as to preclude rebellion. "And I will bring you out from the peoples, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with fury poured out; and I will bring you into the

wilderness of the peoples, and there will I enter into judgment with you face to face. Like as I entered into judgment with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I enter into judgment with you, saith the Lord Jehovah. And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant. And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me; I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, but they shall not enter into the land of Israel". (It is a remarkable thing that He brings the unregenerate out, too.) "And ye shall know that I am Jehovah. As for you, O house of Israel, thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Go ye, serve every one his idols henceforth also, if none of you will hearken unto me; but profane my holy name no more with your gifts and with your idols. For in my holy mountain, in the mountain of the height of Israel, saith the Lord Jehovah, there shall all the house of Israel serve me, the whole of it, in the land; there will I accept them, and there will I require your heave-offerings and the first-fruits of your offerings, with all your holy things. As a sweet savour will I accept you, when I bring you out from the peoples, and gather you out of the countries wherein ye have been scattered; and I will be hallowed in you in the sight of the nations. And ye shall know that I am Jehovah, when I have brought you into the land of Israel, into the country which I lifted up my hand to give to your fathers. And there shall ye remember your ways, and all your doings, wherein ye have been defiled; and ye shall loathe yourselves in your own sight for all your evils which ye have committed. And ye shall know that I am Jehovah, when I have wrought with you for my name's sake, not according to your wicked ways, nor according to your corrupt doings, O house of Israel, saith the Lord Jehovah" (Ezekiel 20:34 - 44). I think we can see clearly how the end is to be reached in power and in righteousness. He deals with them face to face,

and as verse 44 says, He works with them, which would imply His work in them.

A.F.M. Would this coincide with the end of the book, where Israel is recovered, and Jehovah is there?

J.T. Well, this runs on to that, where it is Jehovah-Shammah -- "The Lord is there".

J.S. This really corresponds with the judgment arrived at by Job. He says, "I abhor myself" Job 42:6; he becomes conscious of his moral condition.

A.N.W. Does "for my name's sake" suggest that God retreats into His own rights in mercy?

J.T. I think that is right. The recurrence of these words in this chapter is striking.

Ques. What is the force of the expression, "bond of the covenant" (Ezekiel 20:37), which is used in the passage you have read?

J.T. It indicates the completeness of the recovery; God is coming in for recovery. If the judgment of the earlier part of the book is accepted, there is hope; that, I think, is the way the thing stands. They accepted the judgment already indicated in the earlier part of the book.

A.R. Does the passage also show that whatever Israel's attitude toward God's "holy mountain" and Jerusalem may have been, God's thoughts about it have never changed? The same thing applies to the assembly; in spite of the failure, recovery indicates that God has never given up the idea of the assembly.

J.T. Yes. When recovery is effected in any one of us, it is with a strong hand against the flesh, for the flesh is so strong in us, and we are so slow to give it up. The same spirit is in every one of us. "As I live, saith the Lord Jehovah, verily with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with fury poured out, will I reign over you" (Ezekiel 20:33). We thank God for that. It involves His discipline; His governmental dealings with us, so that He helps us to overcome the flesh in ourselves. But all is that we might reach His holy

mountain, the mountain of the height of Israel, where all the house of Israel shall serve Him (verse 40).

Ques. Is there not the suggestion here, too, that He has abandoned them? Do we not have to learn, that under such circumstances God will not hear us?

J.T. He said He would not be inquired of by them. The people must accept the state that they are in. God cannot answer us until we judge the flesh.

N.P. In another prophet He says, "I will allure her, and bring her into the wilderness, and speak to her heart", Hosea 2:14. Is that on the same line as we get here?

J.T. Hosea stresses the work of God in His people. In the passage before us we have His work, too. He brings them into the wilderness, into the bond of the covenant, and brings them under the rod, which means, I think, that everyone of us is counted and taken up in love for blessing.

G.L. Peter says, "he that has suffered in the flesh has done with sin", 1 Peter 4:1. Does that correspond?

J.T. It does; you have done with sin, as having judged it, but as having suffered in the flesh. We arm ourselves with the mind of Christ as having suffered for sins.

Ques. Is there any suggestion of the epistles to the Corinthians in the verses you read, in the thought of God coming in, in His authority in Christ, and then the rod in Paul's ministry; in love, and then the bond of the covenant following?

J.T. I think that is all very instructive, because it is a question of the kingdom. Romans is the kingdom in its relation to us individually; how God deals with us. It is in our favour to be ruled over with a strong hand. Then Corinthians brings in the kingdom, collectively. So that we have the rod, in the sense of severity, and the judgment of sin in chapter 5; and the second epistle develops the thought of the covenant.

J.T.Jr. We are told to purge out the old leaven in chapter 5 of the first epistle, but here God does it. He purges out the rebels Himself (verse 38).

Rem. In the land, as returned, they loathe themselves: "And ye shall loathe yourselves in your own sight for all your evils which ye have committed" (Ezekiel 20:43). It is not now in the sight of God only; it would be as though, at this point, our sight and God's coalesce.

J.T. It is "when I have wrought with you for my name's sake", as we have seen.

READINGS ON EZEKIEL (6)

Ezekiel 25:1 - 17; Ezekiel 28:24 - 26; Ezekiel 29:21

J.T. In view of the ground to be covered, we should look at chapters 25 to 32 at this reading. These chapters deal with the subject of God's judgment on certain nations in proximity to Israel: Ammon, Moab, Edom, Philistia, Tyre, Sidon and Egypt. In chapter 32 other nations are mentioned as showing the judgment of Egypt, but she is in mind throughout chapters 29 - 32. The Lord would help us in the understanding of what is represented by each nation mentioned. Each is presented as representing some feature of the world with which we have to do. They do not include all the ancient nations, but rather those that were specially in relation or proximity to Israel.

And what should be before us initially is the position in which Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, is seen. He is called "king of kings", in the midst of these nations; and as about to be used of God in His judgment upon them, Nebuchadnezzar represents the element of government which is owned of God. This should be distinguished from the features of those nations mentioned; they are brought forward to represent different moral features of the world; whereas Nebuchadnezzar is on God's side in the midst of all that, as representing His government. He has the title "king of kings", that is, his is universal dominion, divinely given; an element which we should understand in our day, for he represents the rule that has come down to our times. The Spirit of God has grouped these nations together for our instruction at the present time, as representing the features of the world with which we must contend; whereas Nebuchadnezzar, as the universal ruler, is outside of all that. He is the emperor -- the beginning of the great system of government which God inaugurated, when He set Israel aside.

A.N.W. God describes him as "Nebuchadnezzar my servant".

J.T. That is how he is regarded here; he is not judged in this book. Babylon is not seen as judged. Other prophets speak of the judgment of Babylon, but not Ezekiel, in any precise way. So that Nebuchadnezzar would represent the element of government inaugurated by God, until the restoration of Israel, which we should respect and for which we should pray, whereas the other nations would represent features of the world, as the Lord said: "Woe to the world because of offences!" (Matthew 18:7); it is the world in a moral sense in its varied features.

The important subject in view of Israel's recovery, or in view of the saints of today entering on their privileges, is that we should understand the judgment of the world in these features which come near to us -- Jerusalem itself is included in the pronouncement earlier. The setting aside, in judgment, of the ornament of the earth -- the temple in Jerusalem, represented figuratively in Ezekiel's wife -- should affect us as it affected Ezekiel in chapter 24. What God primarily set up in a religious way becomes an object of endearment to us, and if we are unduly occupied with externals, we are apt to allow too great a place to it and contravene the judgment of God. So Ezekiel is told not to mourn the death of his wife. I believe that chapter 24 is to regulate us in our attitude toward what has been peculiarly of God in a public way, lest we overlook that it has come under judgment.

C.A.M. King Artaxerxes, in sending Ezra, describes himself as king of kings also. Do you think that idea will be carried on by men until the Lord arises from His Father's throne?

J.T. I think so; it looks on to the reign of Christ. The four gentile monarchies, whose functions are provisional, are in view of this. The Lord has the title King of kings, and Lord of lords, in Revelation.

Nebuchadnezzar is called king of kings here, and he is called the head of gold, in Daniel; that is, he represents, abstractly, the government of God. It is primarily of God. It is for us, in spiritual discrimination, to distinguish between that and those features represented in the other nations, that are dealt with here so ruthlessly as affecting God's people.

J.S. Would you name the features set forth in these nations as opposed to the testimony?

J.T. Well, the first, as you will notice, is Ammon. Ammon and Moab go together. They represent features of the world all around us and near to us as real christians; not heathendom, but those that are near to us by natural relation, for they descended from Lot. And then Edom is nearer still -- representing those who would claim the brotherhood. These three are forms of the world, with which we might readily contract relations and be defiled. But in our chapter they are presented as hostile to the people of God.

J.S. Do you regard them as in the profession at the present time?

J.T. Quite so; features of the world which are seen in the profession. Then we have the Philistines, who are not related to us; they have no natural link with the saints, but they are in Canaan and so in proximity to the saints. The Philistines have a nearer place than such as Tyre and Egypt. So we have to distinguish between these four features; they are grouped together in chapter 25. Comparatively small space is given to each of the four, but when we come to Tyre and Egypt, each has a large place in the book, especially Egypt.

Ques. Would there be certain features seen in the book of the Acts which would correspond with these in the history of the testimony?

J.T. I think so; there are those addressed as brethren; the term "brethren" was used between the Jews and the apostles; there was a recognised outward relation. There is something like that today -- a

recognised outward relationship -- but in our scripture each of these nations is presented as bitterly hostile to what is of God, whatever their outward attitude may be.

A.F.M. Why was Philistia so hostile to Israel, although not outwardly related?

J.T. Because of the ground they occupied. They were rivals in the same territory; the other three are rivals, not exactly in our own territory, but in lineal relation; but all four are against what is of God. So that with regard to Ammon it says, "prophesy against them; and say unto the children of Ammon, Hear the word of the Lord Jehovah ... Because thou saidst, Aha, against my sanctuary, when it was profaned; and against the land of Israel, when it was made desolate; and against the house of Judah, when they went into captivity: therefore behold, I will give thee to the children of the east for a possession" (Ezekiel 25:3, 4). You can see what their attitude was. When God's people were under His judgment and discipline, there was a bitterness against them, and God takes account of that.

And then, of the Moabites, Jehovah says, "Because Moab and Seir do say, Behold, the house of Judah is like unto all the nations, therefore behold, I will open the side of Moab from the cities, from his cities even to the last of them ... unto the children of the east" (Ezekiel 25:8 -10). They say that the people of God have become like the rest, on the same plane as all the nations, there is no distinction; whereas God never gives up the thought of what His real people are to Him, whatever discipline they may be enduring.

And then of Edom He says, "Because Edom hath dealt against the house of Judah by taking vengeance, and hath made himself very guilty, and revenged himself upon them, therefore thus saith the Lord Jehovah: I will also stretch out my hand upon Edom; and will cut off man and beast from it; and I will make it desolate from Teman; and unto Dedan shall they

fall by the sword. And I will execute my vengeance upon Edom" (Ezekiel 25:12 - 14).

And then as to the Philistines, "Because the Philistines have dealt by revenge, and have taken vengeance with despite of soul, to destroy, from old hatred; therefore thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Behold, I stretch out my hands upon the Philistines" (Ezekiel 25:15, 16). So that each of them has evidenced a certain kind of bitter opposition, and it is largely while God is dealing in discipline with His people. He is peculiarly jealous about us, even if we are under discipline; He will not allow others to attack us. He may find it necessary to discipline us, but He resents every interference.

Ques. Certain opposing elements seem to arise when there is trouble amongst the saints. Is your thought that we might see where this opposition comes from?

J.T. That is right; there was opposition, of course, when Israel was in prosperity, but when they were in difficulty these particular elements showed themselves. The feeling is there always, but it shows itself when opportunity arises.

A.R. Ammon and Moab are saying things, whereas Edom and the Philistines are marked by "taking vengeance". Though the latter may be the worse, yet God holds us responsible for how we speak against the saints, as well as for the way we act towards them.

J.T. The Philistines show "old hatred". It is hereditary.

A.N.W. Do the Jews, when speaking of the brethren in the last chapter of the Acts, have some sinister feeling? It says, "nor has any one of the brethren ... reported or said anything ... concerning thee", Acts 28:21.

J.T. It is an Edomitish position, I think, right through. Paul had spoken of the Jews as his brethren with the deepest feeling (Romans 9:3), and in Rome he addressed them as brethren, evidently with corresponding

feeling, but they used the term as designating the Jews at Jerusalem, where Edomitish hostility had been shown to Christ and His own in the bitterest form.

C.A.M. The divine record gives us ample information as to the origin of these enemies.

J.T. Quite so. Take Ammon and Moab, for example; we know their corrupt origin, and we know Edom, too. God says later, "I hated Esau", Malachi 1:3. His conduct was such as to draw out divine hatred, and it had shown itself at this time. The Philistines came from Caphtor, connected with Egypt; they are a people of great pretension. They make much of themselves and they are rivals of God's people on the ground of profession. They claim the same territory as the saints.

J.S. Would that be seen at the present time in the teaching of modernism; the levelling effect and equality which it brings in?

J.T. Yes; it brings everything down to a common level. I think the modernists would be all Philistines. They are inveterate enemies of the people of God. They occupy the same ground, and would by their investigations, higher criticism, and that kind of thing, bring out their claim as equal to what is of the Spirit of God. It is a very remarkable thing that in the past century, the revival of the truth came in the thirties, and almost concurrently there arose what is called the Tractarian movement in Oxford, developing high-churchism, leading to Rome. Some went to Rome, others became out-and-out rationalists. Satan was endeavouring to combat the work of God with a rival movement. Higher criciticism was also active, claiming to know everything as to the Scriptures, and so on. But the truth has come out in a wonderful development -- the truth of Christ in heaven and the Spirit of God here. And then there was the introduction of the doctrine of infallibility, which followed the Oxford movement -- all intended by the enemy to becloud and counteract the truth God was bringing out. Modernism

is largely the counter to this great movement which men felt was eclipsing them.

F.H.L. Would these four nations which are grouped together in the chapter suggest the "universal lords of this darkness", Ephesians 6:12?

J.T. Yes. It is well to notice that they are put together in the chapter. Edom is alluded to later, but they are put together concisely and form a combined feature of opposition.

A.B.P. And are they marked particularly by hatred against the people of God; whereas the other three -- Tyre, Zidon, and Egypt -- have more the character of shutting God out and usurping His place.

J.T. Well, exactly. Tyre is not marked by hatred of Israel; anciently, she was linked up with Israel in a most striking way. She had great advantages, but now she glories in the fact that Israel is laid waste; she will become enriched, as if Israel was a rival in commercialism and other interests, for Jerusalem is called "the gate of the peoples". And now it is out of the way, and Tyre exults, for she will have a freer hand in her projects.

J.S. The Lord says, "it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in judgment-day than for you" Matthew 11:22.

J.T. Tyre and Sidon had certain advantages, but Chorazin and Bethsaida had much greater, for the Lord Himself had done mighty works in them. I suppose we should regard Tyre as typical of the modern world of commerce. It has a great place, and the Spirit of God devotes chapters 26, 27 and 28 to it. What is meant by it is, I suppose, the great place commerce has as affecting the testimony. The Spirit of God would give us understanding of what is in the mind of God as to this feature of the world. And then the word as to Egypt is given even more space. As many as six different dates of prophecies appear dealing with this great subject of Egypt. What should be noted particularly in this respect is the repeated occurrence of

the words "they shall know that I am Jehovah". That is, there is testimony to God in His judgments. He is to be known in the judgments that He executes; so that they are a testimony, even as the gospel is a testimony. God is made known in the gospel, but He is to be known in judgment also; not that, in the latter, the knowledge is formative in the persons judged, but that there is a testimony to God. God will be witnessed to, even in eternity, I suppose, in the lake of fire, for He is known in the judgments that He executes.

C.A.M. Tyre being the commercial world, do you connect its ruler with the god of this world? Is that why Satan has such a place?

J.T. I think so; there are two terms used, you will notice: the first is the "prince", Ezekiel 28:2 and the second is the "king of Tyre" (Ezekiel 28:12). The prince would be, I suppose, the historical king or ruler in the country, but the king is a fuller and more official thought, and seems to afford the Spirit of God an opportunity of speaking about Satan, as the god of this world.

C.A.M. When Paul acted against what was evil in Philippi he is said to have upset the commercial world there: "seeing that the hope of their gains was gone", Acts 16:19. The work of God would operate in that way, would it not?

J.T. Quite so. The account here is, "And the word of Jehovah came unto me, saying, Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyre, Thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Because thy heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a god, I sit in the seat of God, in the heart of the seas, (and thou art a man, and not God,) and thou settest thy heart as the heart of God: behold, thou art wiser than Daniel! nothing secret is obscure for thee; by thy wisdom and by thine understanding thou hast gotten thee riches, and hast gotten gold and silver into thy treasures; by thy great wisdom thou hast by thy traffic increased thy riches, and thy heart is lifted up

because of thy riches" (Ezekiel 28:1 - 5). And then in verse 11, "And the word of Jehovah came unto me, saying, Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyre, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Thou, who sealest up the measure of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty, thou wast in Eden, the garden of God. Every precious stone was thy covering: the sardius, the topaz, and the diamond, the chrysolite, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the carbuncle, and the emerald, and gold. The workmanship of thy tambours and of thy pipes was in thee: in the day that thou wast created were they prepared. Thou wast the anointed covering cherub, and I had set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou didst walk up and down in the midst of stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways, from the day that thou wast created, till unrighteousness was found in thee" (Ezekiel 28:11 - 15). It would seem that the prince is the historical ruler, only through his great riches he became exalted to the place of God in his mind -- set his heart as the heart of God. But the description of the king is more personal. His heart was lifted up because of his beauty, according to verse 17. He is less dependent upon his wealth. The prince's greatness arises from his wealth, but the Spirit of God seems to move on to that which corresponds to Satan himself. The commercial world is inflationary; it inflates us, perhaps more than any feature of the world, because it affords such a means of power, such a sense of power; wealth being so deceptive.

A.R. Hiram, king of Tyre, was ever a lover of David; he served both David and Solomon. Is your thought that a man of means should hold his wealth in relation to the testimony?

J.T. By referring back to Hiram, we get a right principle. He was a remarkable man; he was ever a lover of David; that is, he was not diverted by his wealth. It is a great matter to be free from influences;

that one is ever a lover of Christ, whatever he may have; so that having means -- a good salary, and the like -- does not move one. Steadiness of love for Christ saves us, and of course the Lord's supper is the great steadying and refreshing influence that holds us and maintains us in our love for Him. Wealth has a most pernicious influence, and inflates us, so that we become independent, and even become rivals of God, in our own minds, at least; that is what the prince of Tyre says of himself.

Rem. So that the love of money is a root of every evil; whereas love for Christ is the spring of all good.

R.W.S. The commercial feature would be particularly used by the enemy against the truth on this continent.

J.T. Well, I suppose there is no country where money has a greater place than in this in which we are. It is really the standard of everything here. In other countries, hereditary titles, family lineage, and so on, have a great place, but here, money is the determining factor of greatness.

A.N.W. So your reference to the Lord's supper is striking. I was thinking of the wisdom of the apostle in asking us to consider our prosperity -- how God had prospered us -- on the first day of the week.

J.T. That is an interesting connection, as entering into the thought of the first day of the week. It is remarkable how much place the apostle gives to the idea of "the collection for the saints" for meeting need, even at a distance. He refers to it in his two letters to Corinth: it is to be laid by on the first day of the week, and it is according as one is prospered. However much one is prospered, as a lover of Christ he is to put by at home proportionately.

A.B.P. You mentioned that there was a testimony to God in the form of judgment which He brought in upon these various nations. Would you say more about that?

J.T. I think the judgments recorded here are designed to that end. Each of the varied phases is in its place, as the gospel is in its place. The gospel makes God known in grace, and affects our hearts; but that failing, He will be known in judgment. In these chapters there is a continual recurrence of the words, "they shall know that I am Jehovah". Each judgment makes God known; it is part of His testimony to Himself, that those under judgment know that He is God. And, as already said, I believe that will go on into the lake of fire, that God is known in the judgment that He executes.

A.B.P. And is the link maintained in the epistle to the Philippians, where it says, "every knee should bow, of heavenly and earthly and infernal beings, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to God the Father's glory", Philippians 2:10, 11?

Ques. When the gospel enters our souls in the Spirit's power, is the same power that judges these nations available in our souls to help us to judge ourselves and to judge the nations now, morally?

J.T. We are to take sides with God, as we said earlier: "Wilt thou judge them ... son of man?" Ezekiel 20:4. These chapters are to draw us to God's side and God's outlook and view, so that we might be with Him as to judgment as well as in the gospel.

C.A.M. To bring God in and make room for His discriminating judgment is a very helpful thought. If wickedness occurs, and we make way for God, it will be perfectly met.

J.T. Yes, and He is better known through the judgment of it; in all these cases we see how finality is reached, and it culminates in God having a free hand to set up what is of Himself, so that the chapters before us provide for that in the restoration of Israel: "And there shall be no more a wounding sting for the house of Israel, nor any grieving thorn, among all that were round about them, that despised them: and they shall

know that I am the Lord Jehovah", (Ezekiel 28:24). That is a remarkable verse; that the judgments are in view of God having a free hand to set up what is of Himself; the house of Israel. It has come under His judgment, according to what we have already seen. But then, what is of Himself, either abstractly or concretely, is never out of His mind, and whenever opportunity offers in dealing with the world in its various phases, He brings this in. He implies that He is not going to leave a void. Through His judgments He is really making room for what is of Himself, and that His people should not be disturbed by such a thing as a "wounding sting". How much of that there is, as it is said, "they belch out with their mouth; swords are in their lips", Psalm 59:7. That is, there is a certain attitude in these nations, ready to come forward when the opportune time comes, but God says, I am going to take all that away, so that "there shall be no more a wounding sting for the house of Israel, nor any grieving thorn, among all that were round about them" Ezekiel 28:24. God is telling us that in the judgment of these features of the world, He is removing these wounding stings that constantly come up and lacerate the saints. God is going to give us liberty and release from all that by His judgments. And then we have, "Thus saith the Lord Jehovah: When I shalt have gathered the house of Israel from the peoples among whom they are scattered, and shall be hallowed in them in the sight of the nations, then shall they dwell in their land which I have given to my servant Jacob. They shall dwell in it in safety, and shall build houses and plant vineyards; and they shall dwell in safety, when I have executed judgments upon all those that despised them round about them: and they shall know that I am Jehovah their God" (Ezekiel 28:25, 26). Note, "I am Jehovah their God" -- it is His people. Now it is not only that He is known, but His people know that He is Jehovah their God.

E.E.H. "Commit it to Jehovah -- let him rescue him; let him deliver him", Psalm 22:8. Would that be a sting delivered to the Lord on the cross?

J.T. Yes. That psalm speaks of several such stings. The Lord was beset with them, even while He was on the cross.

R.W.S. Protection from them is in some sense known today in the promise to Philadelphia: "Behold, I make them of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews, and are not, but lie; behold, I will cause that they shall come and shall do homage before thy feet, and shall know that I have loved thee", Revelation 3:9.

J.T. That is most important now -- it is a promise. There are several promises to Philadelphia, and that is one of them. It is a marvellous promise, too; it is quite an exercise as to how it will come about. The Lord, I am sure, would help us to understand how it takes practical form.

J.H.E. Peter says, "For the time of having the judgment begin from the house of God is come; but if first from us, what shall be the end of those who obey not the glad tidings of God? And if the righteous is difficultly saved, where shall the impious and the sinner appear?" 1 Peter 4:17, 18. Peter had a right view of it, had he not?

A.R. How is the Lord causing those who say they are Jews and are not to worship before Philadelphia's feet? Will you say a word more?

J.T. Well, if He does it even in a small way, the end is reached. It would be very objectionable for us to be looking for this if we are not equal to it. It is a question of spiritual state. It requires balance and self-renunciation to expect it, but the Lord speaks about it to Philadelphia, so that we can count it as a promise.

A.B.P. Does that thought carry through to the judgment seat of Christ; so that matters that have not

been thoroughly bottomed or adjusted here, will all be cleared?

J.T. It would all culminate there, but I think the promise to Philadelphia is intended to be a present realisation; it is an act of the Lord's whilst we are here. "I make them of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews, and are not, but lie; behold, I will cause that they shall come and shall do homage before thy feet" Revelation 3:9. That is a very wonderful promise, and I believe we should count upon it.

G.MacP. Does it indicate that these judgments of God on the nations will culminate in the expression of love to His people?

J.T. Yes. It is a necessity of love to clear the ground, as seen in our chapters. The ground is so encumbered that God cannot work out His thoughts as He did at the beginning of christianity. The ground is so encumbered with these features all around us, that He needs to bring us to His mind about them. So that as we come to it, we know in some measure that He is God in a judicial way, which is important: He is known in His love in the gospel. Both are testimonies to God. Those who know Him through the gospel love Him, but those who know Him through judgment may not love Him, they may be consigned to eternal punishment.

Ques. How do you regard the current commercial depression in relation to the judgment of God on Tyre?

J.T. The depression has been a help to the brethren. Of course it has involved temporal suffering to many, but I think it has greatly aided the brethren in seeing how the government of God works; to see, for instance, how in a moment great fortunes may collapse and come to nothing. I believe it has been a great help to many who are upright to see just what commerce is in this sense -- how quickly the results of it may disappear.

C.A.M. So that there seems to be two ways of arriving at governmental results. One is that economic conditions may take all away from us, but the collection

among the saints offers a way of being in a position where we have not very much to lose.

J.T. And I believe the way in which the apostle Paul presents the truth of the collection enables us to get the benefit of it by giving in a balanced way; on the principle of equality, as he says in the second epistle to the Corinthians; but in the first epistle, it is laying by at home on the first day of the week as God has prospered us. It does not imply that we lay by the whole amount acquired, because a man has obligations which he must meet righteously, so that he weighs the thing, and the sentiment entering into the first day of the week would tend to liberality. If you think of giving a certain amount, the disposition would be to increase rather than reduction. The tendency would be to give more rather than less, on the first day of the week. The drift of the sentiment that underlies the giving would tend to express more love.

C.A.M. That is excellent! So that really, you have no weights to keep you down; as a matter of fact, you are ready then to go up!

J.T. Just so.

A.R. Would Numbers 7 enhance what you are saying? As a result of the princes giving, an eternal state of things is reached, is it not? Moses went in to speak to God, and God spoke to him.

J.T. Yes. The whole chapter is devoted to giving, and it is spread out; the offerings of each prince, although the same as the others, are given in detail, as if God is so pleased with them. He would have the offerings mentioned twelve times; and then the total -- including weight -- of each item is given. The brethren counting the gifts on the Lord's day morning is a holy matter. It should not be regarded as purely temporal. The gifts of the saints are holy, and heaven is pleased with them. So that as Moses goes into the sanctuary to speak to God, God speaks to him.

Ques. In 2 Corinthians 8:5, Paul, speaking of the Macedonian saints, says, "but they gave themselves first to the Lord, and to us by God's will". Would that furnish the basis of the sentiment -- giving themselves to the Lord?

J.T. Yes; but at Corinth (1 Corinthians 16), the basis of the sentiment is the first day of the week, which carries with it so much holy sentiment, involving love. There is the wonderful activity of Christ on that day; the wonderful self-sacrifice in the way He served, right up to late in the evening. I believe that would be involved in what the first day of the week would suggest.

J.S. Do you think it would encourage us, as was said, to give more as we see the Lord giving all; "This is my body, which is for you", 1 Corinthians 11:24. He gives without reservation, does He not?

J.T. Quite so, and all that would enter into the first day of the week, according to the apostle's presentation of it; and his example as coming together to break bread on the first day of the week (Acts 20:7).

F.H.L. The first day of the week carries with it the thought of what is eternal, does it not?

J.T. I think it does: it has eternity in view.

A.N.W. And would not the doing of it at home guarantee that the home is in its right setting in regard of what is eternal, too?

J.T. I believe so; the family would be brought into it. I think balance enters into all that we are saying, that you carefully weigh the thing; it is not simply a matter of spontaneity, but it is a carefully weighed matter. Paul makes a striking allusion to the love of Christ: "For the love of the Christ constrains us, having judged this: that one died for all, then all have died", 2 Corinthians 5:14. That is, you are balanced in the thing, in that sense. You look abroad and say, "that one died for all, then all have died". You are able to take account of the whole position, and you will also be able to take account of your money rightly, how it can

be used in the furtherance of God's interests, I think it is well to have in mind this question of balance, because christianity ought to produce a balanced state of things, that we are not fanatical in any sense; everything we do is done in a sober, intelligent way. The apostle says, "I speak as to intelligent persons: do ye judge what I say", 1 Corinthians 10:15. That is, we are to be careful and weigh what is presented to us. The scripture we have referred to says, "For the love of the Christ constrains us, having judged this" 2 Corinthians 5:14. He judged under the influence of the love of Christ, and what a judgment he had! And I believe that all that should be in the household on the first day of the week; that is, we are balanced. But then, the tendency created by the sentiment of the first day is to give more, rather than less.

Ques. Then is it in order for members of the family, when they are in fellowship to speak over these matters, to keep the thing in balance?

J.T. If they are contributors to the household, they should all be in it. It seems to be rather a question of the brother and his wife, although persons in fellowship in the house should, I think, be brought into it.

A.R. The apostle in referring to the collection, says of the Lord, "for your sakes, he, being rich, became poor, in order that ye by his poverty might be enriched", 2 Corinthians 8:9. And then he says, "Thanks be to God for his unspeakable free gift", 2 Corinthians 9:15. That would help to balance the idea, do you not think?

J.T. The second letter goes into it more fully and brings in the word "prepare". The giving in the first epistle is according to their prosperity, on the first day of the week, but the second epistle stresses preparation. The apostle had boasted to the Macedonians "That Achaia is prepared since a year ago" 2 Corinthians 9:2. The money laid aside should not be used for what is personal; it is not yours any more; the sacrifice is not to be recalled. It is the Lord's.

E.E.H. Would you regard the pound of ointment in John 12 as a balanced idea?

J.T. I do. It was a pound; it was weighed, and kept for a purpose.

Ques. What about the money that Judas wanted to disburse later?

J.T. Well, he spoke commercially; he had no spiritual thought at all; and so was not fit to say anything in those circumstances; a man that is merely commercial cannot think or speak in a holy way. But Judas "was a thief and had the bag, and carried what was put into it" John 12:6. Those charged with the care of the collection of the saints should be marked by the opposite of this.

Ques. He referred to giving it to the poor. That might sound good in the care meeting, but was not the levitical side first in the Lord's mind?

J.T. Well, it does not say so there. It does in Deuteronomy; but Judas' word was simply foreign to the occasion, even though he spoke about the poor. It was foreign; he was really condemning a worshipper.

J.T.Jr. Some said, in Simon's house, "Why has this waste been made?" Mark 14:4. If there is waste it is what we use for ourselves, not what is used for the Lord's interests. We often waste what should be used for the box.

J.T. What we began with on this subject should be borne in mind. It is a question of a lover of David; a lover of Christ; Hiram was typically a lover of Christ. He used his wealth on David; he built David a house, and contributed largely to the house of God. Hiram is the type of a believer who has means; a man may be a christian and have means. We are told of some in Antioch who were "well off", and they contributed to the need at Jerusalem and sent it to the elders by the hands of Barnabas and Saul. So that I think we go back to Hiram in this way. He was not diverted by his wealth, even though it increased; he kept on loving

David, and gave more; he gave largely to Solomon, also, for the house of God.

Ques. Is there not the danger of getting into a routine method of giving; not going beyond a certain amount?

J.T. The tendency of love is to increase. The service of the Lord requires this very thing. Hiram was ever a lover of David, and that is the only thing that is worth counting upon in these matters. The root should be that I love Christ; and if I love Christ I love the saints, and what I have is to be used to promote the interests of Christ. But giving should be in a balanced, calculated way.

J.S. Hiram did not fluctuate in his affections, but was a constant lover.

J.T. He was really more affluent in his giving in Solomon's time; Solomon, however, provided food for his household, but all that Hiram did for Solomon is connected with his love for David (1 Kings 5:1).

F.H.L. What would you say about the two mites? Luke 21:1 - 4.

J.T. It is an incident that is brought forward by the Spirit of God as showing how far love will go. It does not interfere with what we are speaking of as to balance; Paul's thought is equality; not that you should be in want because of giving to another what you need, but the thought of equality; steadiness of love for Christ balances things. You say that this or that is needed and you can afford to give so much; and in wisdom that is the thing to do. But the sentiment of your soul is that your needs become less and your desire is to give more. Jacob's tenth was not bad for a young christian. I do not know that many of us go much further. He returned to Bethel and was pleasing to God there -- that is, in God's house. He ended as a worshipper of God and as putting the spiritual before the natural.

C.A.M. He went on giving in that sense.

Ques. How does the thought of balance enter into the care meeting? I ask in reference to giving.

J.T. The thought of balance certainly enters into it. In Exodus we have the principle of measure in the counting and weighing; these two things go together. It is a question of what the brethren ought to give; determined after careful consideration of the need, and of what we may reasonably expect the brethren to give as lovers of Christ. By experience you know what may be reasonably expected, and the distribution would be based on that.

J.S. And would not Hiram's example help us? He saw that Solomon had undertaken great things and so would require much more.

J.T. Quite so. And there was reciprocation in Solomon's time, for Solomon provided for Hiram, too, as we have seen. So that one gets back what he gives and more. "Give and it shall be given to you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over", Luke 6:38.

Rem. Hiram did not like it very much.

J.T. That is another matter coming in later, but the principles are all there, and in Solomon's time there was a reciprocative feeling between the giver and the receiver. The apostle speaks of "giving and receiving", Philippians 4:15. The two things should go together. So that giving is not continuously one-sided. Balance makes the giver and the receiver to gain.

R.W.S. Some meetings think of the levites all over the world; other meetings consider just for the levites in the district, and in the country. Is the universal position to be in mind more than we have it, possibly?

J.T. I think so; our giving ought to be universal, because the instructions we have deal with need a long way off, and the levites, according to Deuteronomy, should be considered first.

A.R. In regard of Tyre, in the scripture we read, this power seems to have acquired immense influence; it is power in the seas; whereas the king of Egypt speaks of his rivers, which is a more limited thought, is it not?

J.T. Well, chapter 27 is remarkable, depicting a wonderful scope of mercantile enterprises; the east, west, north, and south are laid under tribute by this great trading nation, and the sources of her wealth and variety of her wares are described in remarkable detail. But it is a "lamentation", as if spoken ironically. Then as to Pharaoh, it says, "the word of Jehovah came unto me, saying, Son of man, set thy face against Pharaoh king of Egypt, and prophesy against him, and against the whole of Egypt; speak, and say, Thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Behold, I am against thee, Pharaoh king of Egypt, the great monster that lieth in the midst of his rivers, which saith, My river is mine own, and I made it for myself" (Ezekiel 29:1 - 3). The opening verses on the subject give us the idea that God's creation -- rivers, mountains, lakes, lands, woods, or whatever they be -- are appropriated by man in the flesh, who leaves God out of his calculations. "My river is mine own, and I made it for myself", Pharaoh says. He would exploit it for himself. It is just man generally, looking at the creature of God as ministering to him, as though it were just for him, for his comfort, for his pleasure, to promote his greatness; that is all. That is the idea of Egypt, and there are so many prophecies concerning it, that the subject is more extensively treated than any other in these chapters. God is now speaking to us as to His creatures, which He has provided so bountifully, and man appropriates them deliberately, and says they are his own, that he made them for himself and uses them exclusively for himself, to promote his greatness and build himself up here in pride. That is Egypt, and in this moral sense it is abominable to God.

As one looks at the dates given in these chapters, he is impressed with the importance this feature of the world has in God's mind -- sometimes seventeen years elapsing between one prophecy and another; God would thus return to speak of Egypt: He would give her to Nebuchadnezzar as wages for his service against Tyre (Ezekiel 29:17, 18). God is constantly bringing this matter before us, so that we are not to be selfish; that is, all God's creation is to be used to promote His interests, and in love. Pharaoh is not judged because of his hostility against God's people, although he caused them sorrow in failing them when they leaned upon him. He is judged because of his pride, arrogating to himself God's creatures in independency of Him; building himself up in greatness without God. The recurrence of the word "uncircumcised", covering Egypt and other nations, is to remind us that they were marked by unjudged flesh, and hence causing "terror in the land of the living". They had not been owned or supported of God. Hence they together have gone down to the pit, all of them slain, fallen by the sword.

Rem. This arrogance is really against the testimony; whoever it may come through, it is this Egyptian evil.

C.A.M. I suppose one of the evidences of this in the so-called christian world, is that the giving of thanks for one's food is practically dying out.

J.T. I have often thought of that -- God is left out. So much so that one is peculiarly refreshed as he sees one giving thanks to God in public for his food.

A.B.P. The rich man clothed in purple and fine linen living sumptuously every day, is the Egyptian feature.

J.T. Yes. It is just himself; he was not exactly persecuting the poor man, but he was living in his wealth, indifferent as to the poor man's need. Luke makes a good deal of material means affecting men in this way.

Returning to Ezekiel, attention may be called to chapter 32: "And I will destroy all the beasts thereof, from beside the great waters; and the foot of man shall not trouble them any more, nor shall the cloven hoofs of beasts trouble them. Then will I make their waters clear, and cause their rivers to run like oil, saith the Lord Jehovah. When I shall make the land of Egypt a desolation, and the country shall be left desolate of all that was in it, when I have smitten all them that dwell therein, then shall they know that I am Jehovah" (Ezekiel 32:13 - 15). God's creation goes back to its purity; to what it was originally. Egypt is dealt with and the waters are made clear. God has in mind that He will reinstate things after He has dealt with these features in the world; after the beasts are destroyed "from beside the great waters; and the foot of man shall not trouble them any more".

H.B. Would the word in 1 Timothy 4:4, with regard to the creatures of God, fit in: "being received with thanksgiving"?

J.T. That is what God has in mind. He would indicate that His creation is for those who love Him. He is tolerant of these evil influences, but these passages show how He will deal with them, and this is what the judgment of Egypt means. God is indicating here what is in His mind, and insisting upon it; His creatures are to be received "with thanksgiving" by those "who are faithful and know the truth", 1 Timothy 4:3.

N.P. Would "the goodness of God", in Romans 2, come in here? The goodness of God in a material sense abounds towards men, and yet the world appropriates it without thanksgiving; whereas the goodness of God should lead men to repentance.

J.T. Quite so; the creation abounds with the evidence of God's goodness, but men have appropriated it, as if it were consistent to use it for their own benefit, and leave God out.

J.H.E. In the beginning, Egypt was favourable to the people of God, but later she sought to appropriate them for her own good.

J.T. All these nations had opportunity of knowing what was right, but it is the departure that God is dealing with.

A.B.P. Is the sequel of God's ways in government seen in the fact that the nations shall bring their glory to the heavenly city in the day to come?

J.T. Yes. We have already alluded to Ezekiel 29:21: "In that day will I cause the horn of the house of Israel to bud forth, and I will give thee the opening of the mouth in the midst of them: and they shall know that I am Jehovah". In the people of God there is fruitfulness, and the liberty to speak, when God has dealt with all these elements.

Ques. Does Psalm 2 deal with these things? It says that the Lord shall have them in derision, and they are admonished to "Serve Jehovah with fear, and rejoice with trembling" (Psalm 2:11).

J.T. Quite so; there, of course, it is the direct attack of the nations on Jehovah and His anointed. Here it is the world of the flesh in its varied phases; in its antagonism against Israel and its usurpation of God's creature benefits, and God is dealing with it. And if that kind of thing is in any of us, there is a voice for us in this, too. How prone we are to live to ourselves! The apostle says, "Having judged this: that one died for all, then all have died; and he died for all, that they who live should no longer live to themselves, but to him who died for them and has been raised", 2 Corinthians 5:14 - 15. These nations had to do with Israel, where the light of God was, and hence they had opportunity to know what was right, but they turned definitely to their own natural desires and ways, and hence His judgments upon them.

READINGS ON EZEKIEL (7)

Ezekiel 33:7 - 13, 30 - 33; Ezekiel 34:23 - 31; Ezekiel 36:24 - 38

J.T. We looked at chapters 25 to 32 last time, and observed that they deal with the nations adjacent to Israel. These are all seen as divinely judged, Egypt being specially mentioned, as representing the world of the flesh, turning the resources of nature to selfish purposes -- causing them to promote man's greatness and pride. The nations being disposed of by the judgment of God, way is made for the chapters before us now. As we apprehend the judgment of God, seen in these details, the ground is cleared for individual faith. Chapter 33 places responsibility on individuals, particularly on watchmen, who would be responsible persons set up in this sense, to warn God's people, from an individual standpoint. Chapter 34 deals with "the shepherds of Israel". It shows how God Himself, in view of the unfaithfulness of the shepherds, becomes their Shepherd and finally appoints a shepherd. "I will set up one shepherd over them" (Ezekiel 34:23). So that the saints are viewed as directly under God's care. Chapter 35 deals with mount Seir, or Edom, representing false brethren, and shows that those who are in the position of brethren are in the way, unless they are real. For unless we are real, by taking on the name and the relation of brethren, we are cumbering the ground, and we are sure to persecute those who are real. Then chapter 36 represents God's work in us; that is, the fundamental state amongst the people of God, in virtue of His work in each of us, giving us a new spirit, and a new heart, and giving us of His own Spirit.

W.B-w. Do these chapters take up the moral question among the people?

J.T. Yes; first the responsibility of the watchman. Chapter 33 reads, "When I bring the sword upon a land, and the people of the land take one man from

among them all, and set him for their watchman: if he see the sword coming upon the land, and blow the trumpet, and warn the people; then whosoever heareth the sound of the trumpet, and taketh not warning, if the sword come and take him away, his blood shall be upon his own head. He heard the sound of the trumpet, and took not warning; his blood is upon him: whereas had he taken warning, he would have delivered his soul. But if the watchman see the sword coming, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned, if the sword come and take a person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand" (Ezekiel 33:2 - 6). That is the first thing, and it relates to those who are in the position of watchmen, however constituted. And then verse 7 says, "So thou, son of man, I have set thee a watchman unto the house of Israel" Ezekiel 33:7. Ezekiel was a watchman that God had appointed especially, but first of all, there is given the responsibility of those who were to warn the people of God of impending judgment.

A.R. Those of the house of Chloe were evidently good watchmen, were they not?

J.T. Yes; there were others, too, apparently, who reported the evil. Here the watchman was to warn the people of judgment about to visit the land. In chapter 3 the responsibility of being a watchman was wholly on Ezekiel. Now it appears in a more extended way, as fitting in with the truth unfolded. The clearance of the ground in chapters 25 to 32 makes way for this ministry; that God is now set for the deliverance of His people, first of all on individual lines; but He stresses the responsibility of persons who are in the position of watchmen, to warn them. It makes it very solemn for the whole of christendom, I think, for there are thousands of persons in that position, but what are they doing? And then there is a voice for all of us who have any ability in this public way. Are we being faithful in warning souls?

A.C. Is the thought of the watchman here somewhat akin to Isaiah 21:11, the burden of Dumah: "Watchman, what of the night? Watchman, what of the night?"

J.T. Yes; and the watchman knows what to answer.

A.R. Would you say that Mr. Darby's ministry was like the blowing of the trumpet to warn christendom at large?

J.T. Just so, and all such ministry would be of that character.

A.N.W. This would go beyond the range of what we call gospel preaching, would it not?

J.T. It is not evangelical work that is alluded to, but watchmen's work; as those who watch for souls, as Peter says. It is a question of the saints knowing that God is bringing something to pass. "When I bring the sword upon a land"; that is, we are now at the end of the dispensation, and it is the time of judicial dealings; as with Israel then, so with ourselves now. God is acting judicially; and when He does this in any particular case, then it is the watchman's responsibility to call attention to it. We can see all around us the judicial actings of God in the nations, and watchmen -- whether appointed by the people or by Jehovah -- are responsible to warn them.

A.B.P. Would you distinguish between a watchman and a seer?

J.T. Yes; the word seer is more official, really involving a gift, I think. Of course, Ezekiel was a seer. The word "seer" was at one time applied to prophets, as we learn in the first book of Samuel. They were called seers because they could see, but it involved that they were prophets. A watchman is set up as a lookout for enemies or for anything of an adverse nature, and to warn the people of it; but a seer might bring in what is possible in the way of ministry. With regard to the watchman, it is a question of any one being recognised by the saints in this sense. Even persons in denominations, I think, would be called to account in this way;

whether the people have made them that (Ezekiel 33:2), or their appointment is by God, as in verse 7.

A.N.W. Would the individual withdrawal movement in 2 Timothy 2 be the result of this ministry?

J.T. Yes; that would be one of the results; one judges the evil one is connected with and abandons it. Now verses 21 and 22 read: "And it came to pass in the twelfth year of our captivity, in the tenth month, on the fifth of the month, that one who had escaped out of Jerusalem came unto me, saying, The city is smitten! Now the hand of Jehovah had been upon me in the evening, before he that had escaped came; and he had opened my mouth against his coming to me in the morning; and my mouth was opened, and I was no more dumb" Ezekiel 33:21,22. The man was a messenger to report evil. Considerable time had elapsed since the overthrow of Jerusalem, so that it must have taken him a long time to come, but he evidently was a very burdened man who had a heart for the things of God, to take such a journey to bring the tidings to the prophet. But it relieved the prophet, for his mouth had been shut (according to chapter 24), and now it is opened in view of this man's coming. It would show how God acts in these circumstances; how those who feel things may serve -- as the man who brought the tidings; and then how the prophet is released and able to proceed with the ministry; his mouth is opened.

W.B-w. It seems to be a question of death or life in this chapter; death if one does not escape the judgment.

J.T. Yes; it is a very solemn, searching chapter, putting responsibility on individuals; first on the watchmen, and then on the persons warned; each of us is put under responsibility. God says, in verse 11, "As I live, saith the Lord Jehovah, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live" Ezekiel 33:11. God is now ready to pardon people and it is a question of each one taking the matter to

himself. If he has been going on in a course of wickedness, and he turns to God, all his past is overlooked; it is not brought up against him. It is a question of his present state. On the other hand, if a man has been going on in righteousness and sins, his righteousness does not count. It is remarkable instruction. What I am doing at the present moment is the point; it is a question of where I am now.

C.A.M. Is it in view of the fact that God is going to bring in another order of things? Perhaps it is on the same principle as Noah preaching righteousness, in view of a new world of righteousness being introduced. Righteousness is therefore an all-important matter.

J.T. Yes, and it becomes a question of how each delivers himself; the point is, what I am doing now. God says, in effect, The matter must be settled now. If you have been in unrighteous associations or your conduct has been unrighteous, turn to righteousness now, and the matter will be settled. I will not bring up the past against you. On the other hand, if you have been on the ground of practising righteousness and you turn away now, then your righteous acts will not be remembered. It is remarkable instruction.

Ques. To whom does this refer?

J.T. Anyone; primarily it is a question of God's dealings with Israel, but it is of interest to note that the first verse says, "And the word of Jehovah came unto me, saying, Son of man, speak to the children of thy people" Ezekiel 33:1,2, so that the matter was on Ezekiel. It is the people that stand in relation to him. And then God says, "I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?" (Ezekiel 33:11). God says in effect, You can see the line I am on: I am on the line of saving, and the way of salvation is open to all now. Verse 10 shows the people were lethargic, taking up the attitude of despair.

A.R. Does not verse 14 show that even though the verdict may be already passed, yet, if the sinner repent, grace is shown him? It is remarkable how far God is prepared to go with men.

J.T. Yes; this is a good chapter for evangelical work because it shows the attitude of God; according to the earlier chapters He had cleared the ground through His judgments, and now it is a question of individual faith and self-judgment. This principle always applies, as seen in chapter 18. Governmental wrath on Israel was announced by the Lord (Luke 21:22), but Peter could say to his hearers at Jerusalem, "Repent, and be baptised, each one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ, for remission of sins, and ye will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit", Acts 2:38.

Rem. Verse 13 speaks of a man trusting to his own righteousness and doing what is wrong.

J.T. Yes; trusting to one's righteousness and doing what is wrong often go together. It might be said of someone that he has a good reputation, so that we must make allowance for him. But what is he doing now? "When I say to the righteous that he shall certainly live, and he trusteth to his righteousness and doeth what is wrong, none of his righteous acts shall be remembered; but in his unrighteousness which he hath done, in it shall he die" (Ezekiel 33:13). That is a serious position. He may be legalising what is wrong by his past righteousness. God says, about that man, "none of his righteous acts shall be remembered". So that wrong-doing is wrong-doing, whoever the wrong-doer is. God is showing that His ways are equal. Each one is judged "after his ways" (Ezekiel 33:20), not for those of his fathers.

W.B-w. Lot was told to escape for his life. He is called a righteous man in Sodom, but had he remained in Sodom, he would have come under the judgment of God.

J.T. Quite so; his righteousness would not have saved him.

E.E.H. Is the point that we are to continue in righteousness?

J.T. That is right; not to depend upon the past. God is dealing with us according to what we are now.

E.E.H. Peter, in speaking to Cornelius, remarks, "but in every nation he that fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him" (Acts 10:35), meaning that he continues in the thing and so is acceptable to God.

J.T. That is right; not he that has feared and has worked righteousness, but he that is doing it.

T.W. What does death in this connection mean amongst the saints?

J.T. It is the governmental dealing of God. "When I bring the sword upon a land". Ezekiel 33:2. We are dealing here with externals. The question of the "second death" had not yet quite come into evidence.

Ques. Which is more serious: what we have here, or the wilful sin in Hebrews 10:26?

J.T. Sin in the epistle to the Hebrews is always regarded as apostasy; for which there is no forgiveness. What is before us here is what occurred in man living on the earth, and in relation to which God is appealing to him to turn from his unrighteousness. It brings one's moral status on earth up to date. Many of us are merely historical christians; but God says we must be up to date. I mean to say, it is what you are doing now. "Blessed are they that wash their robes", Revelation 22:14. That means that we are doing it today - and every day.

W.R. Is that where meetings for prophetic ministry are of help to us?

J.T. They help as bringing our conduct to our consciences.

J.T.Jr. Does David's history help us in this connection? He sinned, but he turned from the sin; he

did not die in it. He went through the thing morally and washed his robes.

J.T. Quite so.

A.N.W. Does our chapter refer to what is governmental rather than final and eternal judgment?

J.T. Well, we have to go to the New Testament really for the final thing, but it is a most serious matter here. He dies, the passage says, in his unrighteousness. "But in his unrighteousness which he hath done, in it shall he die". Ezekiel 33:13. I should not like to mitigate that. I think God is pressing upon us, now, this matter of being up to date with Him. I know full well that in the New Testament we are taught that a christian -- one of Christ's sheep -- never perishes (John 10:28). Then in 1 Corinthians 11:30 - 32 it says, "On this account many among you are weak and infirm, and a good many are fallen asleep. But if we judged ourselves, so were we not judged. But being judged, we are disciplined of the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world". God takes His people away, I believe, in mercy; but how serious it is! In the Old Testament, we are dealing with death and life as here on earth; and of course nothing was more serious than that one should die in his unrighteousness.

T.A. Is that what John means when he speaks about the sin unto death?

J.T. Yes; he would mean death as occurring here -- not the second death. It is governmental.

A.Pf. Ananias and Sapphira died in their sin.

J.T. Yes; the same thing: they were undoubtedly believers, because they got a burial. I believe the way the Spirit of God records the fact indicates they were christians, but they died in their sin. Things are clearer in the New Testament. In Ezekiel God is dealing with the public position.

E.T.B. What would you say about Sardis? "Thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead", Revelation 3:1. Would that be the history of Protestantism?

J.T. That is a state; not that thou shalt die; but, art dead. Death there is not judgment, but a state of death -- no pulsation Godward; no spiritual life. Of Jezebel the Lord says, "her children will I kill with death" Revelation 2:23 -- death in a moral sense as a penalty.

J.T.Jr. The wicked one turns from his unrighteousness, and then the righteous one turns from his righteousness to wickedness: is that not the point here, that there is a turning one way or another?

J.T. Just so. In either case the turning is regarded as definite. God is establishing the fairness of His ways. He is not here treating of national guilt, but the present state of each person, and how the way of life was open to him. It was truth for the time. The attack was: "The way of the Lord is not equal" (Ezekiel 33:17).

A.B.P. Would the attitude of the apostle, when writing to the Philippians, fit in? It says, "if any way I arrive at the resurrection from among the dead. Not that I have already obtained the prize, ... but one thing -- forgetting the things behind, ... I pursue", Philippians 3:11 - 13.

J.T. Quite so. He said elsewhere, "I buffet my body, and lead it captive, lest after having preached to others I should be myself rejected", 1 Corinthians 9:27. So that this public matter is most solemn; one is to be up to date with God. It is a most important matter where I stand today at this very moment. If I am shown to be wrong, why not turn? The way of adjustment is open. Paul says, "not having my righteousness", Philippians 3:9. He sought to have the righteousness of God. Philippians 3 contemplates a man in the race, and he sees to it, from his own point of view, that he is kept fit and in the race. It is not the point of view of divine counsel here. Peter says, "in your faith have also virtue, in virtue knowledge, in knowledge temperance, in temperance endurance, in endurance godliness, in godliness brotherly love, in brotherly love love", 2 Peter 1:5 - 7. We are thus kept in trim: fruitful, and

we do not forget that we were purged from our former sins.

We should look at chapter 34 briefly. God has been challenging the watchmen, and now He challenges the shepherds. "And the word of Jehovah came unto me, saying, Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy; and say unto them, unto the shepherds, Thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Woe to the shepherds of Israel that feed themselves! Should not the shepherds feed the flock? Ye eat the fat, and ye clothe you with the wool; ye kill them that are fattened: but ye feed not the flock" (Ezekiel 34:1 - 3). It is a solemn matter. Persons who are regarded as shepherds -- who ought to be looking after the saints in a shepherdly spirit, are here arraigned as to how they were fulfilling their responsibility.

C.A.M. Was the last commission to Peter to feed the sheep, due to the Lord anticipating that in the course of time that feature of service would be lacking; particularly at the end?

J.T. Yes; "Feed my lambs", and then, "Shepherd my sheep", and then, "Feed my sheep". The shepherd's commission is given to Peter in John's gospel; in Matthew the Lord had earlier given him the keys of the kingdom of the heavens -- an especial administrative commission, but in view of the need of the last day, shepherding is brought in. Paul regarded the Ephesian elders on the same ground. So that it is a very important service, and what comes out here is that those engaged in it in Israel had failed. The shepherds are spoken to on account of their failure. And so, it is most touching to see that Jehovah undertakes to be Shepherd. It is one of the most touching parts of this chapter. It connects our thoughts immediately with Jesus in John's gospel; how the Lord Himself took on the service in which others failed. "For thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Behold I, even I, will both search for my sheep, and tend them. As a shepherd tendeth his flock

in the day that he is among his scattered sheep, so will I tend my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places whither they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day. And I will bring them out from the peoples, and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land; and I will feed them upon the mountains of Israel by the water-courses, and in all the habitable places of the country. I will feed them in a good pasture, and upon the high mountains of Israel shall their fold be: there shall they lie down in a good fold, and in a fat pasture they shall feed upon the mountains of Israel. I will myself feed my flock, and I will cause them to lie down, saith the Lord Jehovah. I will seek the lost, and bring again that which was driven away, and will bind up the broken, and will strengthen that which was sick; but I will destroy the fat and the strong: I will feed them with judgment" (Ezekiel 34:11 - 16). As I said, that, I think, is one of the most touching things in this book, especially in view of the gospel of John, which corresponds in this respect; that the Lord does certain things Himself, others having failed to do them. The synoptic gospels would make matters official in the hands of the disciples, but the Lord does them Himself in John. For instance, He feeds the multitude in chapter 6; He is the Good Shepherd in chapter 10; He finds the colt in chapter 12; so that it seems to me that this fits in with our own times when the shepherds have all failed. The Lord came in Himself and began to seek out His sheep and to bring them back, and He is doing that still. That feature seems to be the point in verse 23 of our chapter: "And I will set up one shepherd over them" Ezekiel 34:23. That is, God is referring to the place that Christ has personally. He is called David here -- "even my servant David". A great thought of Christ, according to John's ministry, is seen in allusions to David. John 10 shows Christ's love for the sheep; the length to which He went, laying down His life for the sheep.

F.H.L. Would the opening of John 5 connect with what you have in mind? It says, in regard to the man at the pool, "Jesus says to him" John 5:8, and then later "Jesus finds him" John 5:14.

J.T. Chapter 9 is much the same. As He passed on the Lord saw the blind man; He saw him; His attention is not called to him; He saw him, and the disciples asked, "who sinned, this man or his parents, that he should be born blind? Jesus answered, Neither has this man sinned nor his parents, but that the works of God should be manifested in him" (John 9:2, 3). That is, the Lord knows His sheep; He knew all about that man, and that man illustrates how the sheep come to light and follow Him; they move in the light. So that as the man in John 9 is cast out because of his faithfulness to the light, the Lord finds him.

J.T.Jr. Are you connecting the official side with the shepherds in the first part of this chapter; whereas, what the Lord is doing today is connected with what is secret and unofficial?

J.T. Quite so; that is a good way to put it. He is carrying on this great work today, and it is most touching, for in John 10 He says that He lays down His life for the sheep.

A.C. The thought of the shepherd and the commission that Peter had from the Lord so impressed him that he later exhorted the elders to be shepherds over God's flock.

J.T. The commission to feed the sheep was given after Peter was thoroughly restored; that is, the breakdown of the official side is seen in Peter prior to this. He said, "I go to fish", John 21:3. The Lord had said to Peter and Andrew that He would make them "fishers of men"; but He does not send Peter to fish here; He sends him to look after sheep, and that is a leading thought in John. He is to feed and shepherd the sheep after he is restored; that is, after the breakdown of the official side and the recovery in this moral way. He is

not seen as the apostle Peter in John; John's gospel does not employ the word "apostle" in that sense. The twelve are usually called "disciples", which is not an official term. The Lord might use any saint to feed the lambs and the sheep today, but behind the service lies the great thought that He is doing it. The verse we have read says, "I will set up one shepherd over them" Ezekiel 34:23.

C.A.M. In using the title "chief Shepherd", Peter would show that he had been impressed with the personal service of Christ to which we have been alluding.

A.R. Would you say that His washing of the disciples feet in John 13 is the evidence of the personal care of the Shepherd for the sheep?

J.T. Just so; it shows what Jesus is Himself in John's gospel and how we are brought into that. John's reference to himself in the book of Revelation would show how fully he was in accord with that: "your brother and fellow-partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and patience, in Jesus" Revelation 1:9.

W.B-w. Do not both sides of the truth go on today? You have referred to Jesus finding the colt in John and sending someone else for it in Matthew. Do not both sides work out today?

J.T. Quite so; we never can assume that Matthew's side is abrogated by John's. The whole truth of God stands. But because of the great failure of the public body, the Person of Christ is stressed; the Lord is helping us in that today, and particularly in John's gospel. It is a question of the Person of Christ; who and what He is. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God", John 1:1. That is what He is personally. And then we have what He became: He became flesh, and came down so low as to wash the saints' feet; to find the colt; to feed the multitude; that is what is so touching; and the commission to Peter to care for His sheep, I believe, carries all that with it. Then there is John, too. Peter

says, "Lord, and what of this man?" John 21:21. The Lord says, "If I will that he abide until I come, what is that to thee? Follow thou me" (John 21:22). It is what He has in reserve in John, as has often been said; and I believe it is to bring out these great truths that apply to these last days, how the Lord is doing the things Himself; and how it is a question of being in accord with Him, and John is in accord with Him, according to Revelation.

W.B-w. Does it mean that if the saints who are sent to bring in the colt do not do it, the Lord will do it Himself?

J.T. That is the thought; He Himself finds the colt, according to John 12, and sits upon it; and He is doing it all the time -- finding young brothers and sisters for His service. Any of us may be brought into it, but He is doing it.

F.N.W. Is it significant that the Lord refers to Himself as "I" seven times in Revelation 22?

J.T. Yes; it is peculiarly a book of personalities, so that John introduces himself as "I, John", and soon. In the gospel he does not refer to himself in a personal way; it is, "the disciple whom Jesus loved", or, "the other disciple", and so on. But in the book of Revelation we have the personality -- "John", and "I, John". Personality is in mind. This is seen also in verse 23 of our chapter. "And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David". Ezekiel 34:23. It is a question of personality now; "he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd. And I Jehovah will be their God, and my servant David a prince in their midst: I Jehovah have spoken it. And I will make with them a covenant of peace, and will cause evil beasts to cease out of the land; and they shall dwell in safety in the wilderness, and sleep in the woods. And I will make them and the places round about my hill a blessing; and I will cause the shower to come down in its season; there shall be showers of blessing"

(Ezekiel 34:24 - 26). And then it says in verse 29, "And I will raise up for them a plant of renown, and they shall be no more consumed with hunger in the land, neither bear the ignominy of the nations any more. And they shall know that I Jehovah their God am with them, and that they, the house of Israel, are my people, saith the Lord Jehovah. And ye, my flock, the flock of my pasture, are men: I am your God, saith the Lord Jehovah" (Ezekiel 34:29 - 31). Can anything be more touching than that? It covers the present moment -- particularly so. God has wrought to bring His people back to Himself, and He is developing this thought of personality; David, the outstanding personality of the Old Testament, being introduced to give character to it. Jesus is the Root of David. In addressing Himself to the assemblies He says, "I Jesus ... I am the root and offspring of David", Revelation 22:16. So it is a question of personality in that sense, rather than what is official.

J.T.Jr. Is there the need of being grounded in John's ministry as to the Person of Christ before we can take up active service as in Matthew, where He is seen as the Offspring of David?

J.T. Yes. It is a question of what one is. John, in his gospel, is out of sight. He does not advance his name at all; it is the "disciple whom Jesus loved". It is that one who is attractive to Jesus.

W.B-w. Jehovah sets David over the flock which He Himself has found. Does that mean that He is carrying things out administratively at the present time?

J.T. I think so. What is coming to light at the present time is Davidic in character. The prophetic word teaches that David rules in Israel in the future; that is, Christ in Davidic character comes in before He is known publicly in Solomonic character. In relation to the assembly, as in the book of Revelation, He is seen as connected with David. His attractiveness is in mind. The history of David brings out attractiveness; his name means "beloved"; so that the man who gives

account of him to Saul says, He is "skilled in playing, and he is a valiant man and a man of war, and skilled in speech, and of good presence", 1 Samuel 16:18. I believe that the Lord at present is ministering to us the Davidic character -- as "the sweet psalmist of Israel", developing the service of God. Presently He will act against His enemies. They will attack Him after the assembly is gone. He will take up a peculiar place amongst His suffering people, and in military power and prowess, so that He defeats all His enemies before He reigns as Solomon. We are in a wonderful time now; we are in David's time, so to say; that is, from the standpoint of the service of God, presently it will be from a military standpoint, as in relation to Israel. What I think is meant in the Lord saying, "I am the root and offspring of David", is spiritual quality, the service of God being in view.

A.N.W. That is very beautiful, and must explain the occasion of the bridal revival, for there immediately follows the word, "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come" Revelation 22:17.

J.T. It does. It explains all that has been going on in these last one hundred years, referring to Christ as "the root and offspring of David" Revelation 22:16. He does not refer to Solomon, but to David; and then He says, "the bright and morning star", which links on with the incoming day.

W.B-w. What is the force of David being prince in their midst? He set him over the flock. And it says in verse 24, "and my servant David a prince in their midst".

J.T. Well, "prince" in such a connection is personality. "King" suggests what is official.

A.P.B. The words of Paul to the elders of Ephesus seem to cover the scope of what we have before us. He refers to being free from their blood, like the faithful watchman, having spoken to them of the whole counsel of God; he refers to their shepherdly responsibility,

calling upon them to watch, and warns them of what is about to come in, and then finishes up with the personality of our Lord Jesus Christ. "Remember the words of the Lord Jesus, that he himself said ...", Acts 20:35.

C.A.M. As to personality connected with a prince, I suppose in a prince there is ability for kingship if it is needed.

J.T. Quite so.

Chapter 35 reminds us of the sorrowful side of our position -- referring to Edom, the false brother and the appeal to us to be true. A true brother is born for adversity, which is the direct opposite to Edom; the brother who is characteristically adverse, as we have here: "Because thou hast had a perpetual hatred, and hast given over the children of Israel to the power of the sword, in the time of their calamity, in the time of the iniquity of the end" (Ezekiel 35:5). Edom from his very birth was to be set aside, with the final result that God said, "I hated Esau", Malachi 1:3. The first epistle of John helps us as regards the true and false brother. We are to be like David; that is, like Christ as seen in David, we are to lay down our lives for the brethren. Today there are imitations of what is characteristic of brethren. There is no opposition more specious than imitation of what is of God.

W.B-w. In chapter 25 the Philistines are said to have an "old hatred"; and in this chapter Edom is said to have had a "perpetual hatred".

J.T. Is that not sorrowful? The word used has both senses; although "old", the hatred has not ceased; it is kept up. It is bad enough to have an old one, but in a perpetual one there is no relenting at all, so that it runs on to the end of the Old Testament and then it appears in the New Testament in the Herods.

A.R. The greatest opposition against the truth at the present time comes from so-called brethren; it is such that are specially opposing perpetually.

J.T. Well, the final word in the section we are considering is in chapter 36. One can see the force of it, that after the false brother is exposed and dealt with, there is now liberty for the work of God to go on; in fact, the end of chapter 35 seems to make way for chapter 36. "As thou didst rejoice at the inheritance of the house of Israel, because it was desolated, so will I do unto thee: thou shalt be a desolation, O mount Seir, and all Edom, the whole of it: and they shall know that I am Jehovah" Ezekiel 35:15. And then in Ezekiel 36:1, "And thou, son of man, prophesy unto the mountains of Israel, and say, Mountains of Israel, hear the word of Jehovah". Edom had its mountains, but the mountains of Israel are referred to now -- the spiritually elevated places of the saints are in view in chapter 36.

W.B-w. Was it right of Jacob, when going to meet his brother, to appease him with a present?

J.T. It was a right attitude; but it is remarkable that in Genesis 33:7 Joseph is mentioned before his mother as they came before Esau. Jacob in presenting his family before Esau presents what is of God in his family to his brother -- one after another, and in the midst of them is Joseph, put before his mother; that is, Christ has His place among the true brethren. Joseph is not merely Rachel's son; he is put before Rachel, as the Lord Jesus in John's gospel is put before His mother. The Lord calls His mother "Woman" in John's gospel. It is a question of the greatness of Christ, and that is what God is doing today; He is bringing in the greatness of Christ. He was not 'begotten before the worlds' by the Father. That is derogatory to Christ. That is what the creed says, but the truth is that Christ is a divine Person; He is Himself God: "the Word was God". He has taken the place of sonship here to carry out the counsels of God, but personally He is God, and that in type is what is seen in Genesis 33. Joseph is put before Rachel in the presence of Esau. Did Esau understand? I do not think he did, nor do I think the

so-called "brethren" abroad who are persecuting today, understand the greatness of Christ in what He is bringing before us.

C.A.M. It is very evident they do not understand John's gospel. We can read Matthew's gospel more intelligently when we understand John's gospel.

J.T. I believe John is the first of the gospels to read. We ought to begin with Paul in the epistles, but John, I believe, is the first gospel to read now.

W.B-w. You mean that Joseph being put before his mother in the presence of Esau would meet the perpetual hatred?

J.T. Yes, if Esau understood. If you can get the brethren to see Christ they will be helped. If a brother is genuine he will listen as you bring John's gospel before him. You begin with the Person of Christ -- "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God", John 1:1. If a man does not go with that, he is disqualified; but every genuine brother will go with it.

C.A.M. You can see that brethren who do not understand eternal life as brought before the saints many years ago, cannot understand what the Lord is setting before us today.

J.T. No; in what has been mentioned as to Genesis 33, there was the opportunity for Esau. He might stop and say, Why is that child before his mother? But there is no suggestion that Esau made any inquiry about it at all. We are freed of the false brother in Ezekiel 35; he has been dealt with, and then God turns to what He will do for His people in their mountains; for a point of importance with Edom is his mountains. Esau's territory was a place of mountains, but then God says, Israel has mountains, too. Think of the mount of transfiguration, for instance. In keeping with this, what comes in in chapter 36 is the work of God. That is the next thing -- what God does in us. He says, "I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye

shall be clean. ... I will give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit within you ... and I will put my Spirit within you" (Ezekiel 36:25 - 27). That is all according to the teaching of John's gospel.

J.H.E. The woman in John 4 said, "Our fathers worshipped in this mountain" (verse 20), which was but dark national sentiment, but the Lord would clear her mind as to it.

J.T. Quite so. The verses read in chapter 36 require special attention; verse 24 begins, "And I will take you from among the nations, and gather you out of all the countries, and will bring you into your own land. And I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your uncleannesses and from all your idols will I cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and keep mine ordinances, and ye shall do them. And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God" (Ezekiel 36:24 - 28). We are on the line of purpose now; these features being there, God is not ashamed to be called their God, nor to call them His people.

J.T.Jr. Is the water ignored in a general way amongst christians? That is why John makes so much of the water and the Spirit; and then in his epistle, it is the water and the blood.

J.T. His ministry would make us inwardly and outwardly according to God, so that God is not ashamed to be our God and to call us His people. The Lord says, "my brethren ... my Father and your Father ... my God and your God".

C.A.M. In that way this prophet seems to be a sort of advance on Jeremiah. The latter speaks of the new covenant, but Ezekiel speaks of the Spirit given.

J.T. Yes; undoubtedly this is the chapter the Lord spoke of in His talk with Nicodemus; it is a most important chapter.

W.B-w. It ends with the cities being "filled with flocks of men" (Ezekiel 36:38). Does the use of the word "men" suggest the development of intelligence?

J.T. It is very beautiful; we can have no doubt as to what these figures of shepherds and sheep mean; it is a question of men. We have "the holy flock" in verse 38; and, as has been quoted, "flocks of men". The Lord says, "the men whom thou gavest me", John 17:6. That is the thought of development. We are no longer babes; it is men that God has in mind.

A.B.P. The thought of sprinkling would suggest a limited quantity of water. The quantity of water in the wash-hand basin in John 13 would be limited, but the quality is equal to the Red Sea.

J.T. Quite so. It is in a basin that could be carried around; a portable one; that is, love is seen in it more than the Red Sea. It is power in the Red Sea.

Ques. Had you in mind to refer back to chapter 33 before we close?

J.T. Yes; just to the word at the end. "And as for thee, son of man, the children of thy people keep talking of thee by the walls and in the doors of the houses, and speak one to another, every one to his brother, saying, Come, I pray you, and hear what is the word that cometh forth from Jehovah. And they come unto thee as a people cometh, and they sit before thee as my people, and they hear thy words, but they do them not; for with their mouth they show much love, but their heart goeth after their dishonest gain. And behold, thou art unto them as a lovely song, a pleasant voice, and one that playeth well on an instrument; and they hear thy words, but they do them not. And when this cometh to pass (behold, it will come), then shall they know that a prophet hath been among them" (Ezekiel 33:30 - 33). I thought we might have these verses

before us in closing; how we may sit and listen to what is of God and yet be unaffected by it. It is that kind of thing that these verses refer to, and they often apply at our meetings.

J.H.E. It would be like the Lord saying to Israel, "We have piped to you, and ye have not danced", Matthew 11:17.

A.R. After a meeting like this there should be a change in us.

J.T. That is the way it should affect us; not simply to say, It was a good meeting; but, What have I received in my soul, and am I moving in relation to it?

Rem. The prophet evidently discerned that the people were in this state and he prophesied accordingly.

J.T. Quite so; God saw they were in that state. He took account of the prophet, too; for it was a word for the prophet, to comfort him, I suppose.

READINGS ON EZEKIEL (8)

Ezekiel 37:1 - 28; Ezekiel 39:11 - 16

J.T. In our previous readings we have been mainly occupied with the judgment of God on Israel, and Jerusalem in particular, and then on certain nations in proximity to Israel; that is, we have traced a judicial course of dealings from God. At our last reading we touched on chapter 36, in which is begun what may be termed the constructive work of God in the book. It is God's way, in His dealings, whether with nations or individuals, to first pull down and then to build up. The book from chapter 36 onward mainly presents the constructive work of God, with a view to the final settlement of His people Israel in their own land, and the procurement of His dwelling place, or sanctuary, amongst them. Chapter 36, as we have seen, speaks of cleansing, and of God's proposal to give His people a new heart and a new spirit, and to give them His own Spirit, speaking of new birth. Chapter 37 continues on constructive lines and deals with resurrection; then the judgment of God in chapters 38 and 39; and following on that, the subject of the house, which will engage us at our next reading. What we have observed in regard to chapter 36 should be kept in mind as we consider chapter 37; particularly the thought of cleansing: "And I will take you from among the nations, and gather you out of all the countries, and will bring you into your own land. And I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your uncleannesses and from all your idols will I cleanse you" (Ezekiel 36:24, 25). New birth carries with it not only the thought of "spirit", but cleansing.

W.R. John 3:5 says: "Except any one be born of water and of Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God".

J.T. It was no doubt chapter 36 to which the Lord alluded when He spoke to Nicodemus about new birth; being born not only of the Spirit, but of water. Chapter 37 is more than new birth, but developing from it; it is life in a complete sense, of which new birth is the initial thought. First we have the figure of the bones, which came together and were covered with sinews, flesh and skin and then breathed upon, made to live and to stand upon their feet. So that these chapters are clearly constructive with a view to God having His people in resurrection in a national sense, in their own land, that He might dwell amongst them, as He says at the end of chapter 37. "I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for ever. And my tabernacle shall be over them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And the nations shall know that I Jehovah do hallow Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for ever" (Ezekiel 37:26 - 28).

W.B-w. Would the expressions "new heart" and ''new spirit'' refer to new birth?

J.T. I think that the Lord, in speaking to Nicodemus, alluded to this -- first the cleansing, as seen in the water, and then the positive element; that is, a new heart and a new spirit. It is in principle a change of man.

A.N.W. It does not quite say that they shall live, in chapter 36. I notice you spoke of new birth, with a view to life.

J.T. Yes; whilst the cleansing can only be by the death of Christ, it is not the whole feature of redemption. The blood, which is not mentioned, is also necessary. We need the blood for completing the thought of redemption, and then the thought of life comes in in chapter 37. Life contemplates the whole person; the whole man. Chapter 36 lays the basis for the new man -- "a new heart" and "a new spirit" in the cleansing,

but there is more than that; there is the idea of bone coming to bone.

C.A.M. The thought is not complete until we get the body. Resurrection includes the body.

J.T. It does in chapter 37. That is what is in mind in the figure used, Of course it goes on to the whole house of Israel, but there is the idea of the body in bone coming to bone and the other details given. Life is primarily in view. It says, "And he said unto me, Son of man, Shall these bones live? And I said, Lord Jehovah, thou knowest. And he said unto me, Prophesy over these bones, and say unto them, Ye dry bones, hear the word of Jehovah. Thus saith the Lord Jehovah unto these bones: Behold I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live" (Ezekiel 37:3 - 5). Life does not actually take place until bone comes to bone with sinews and flesh and skin. Then the life comes, for it says in verse 8: "And I looked, and behold, sinews and flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them over; but there was no breath in them" Ezekiel 37:8. There is the whole body, with its constituent parts, and Jehovah's word that they should live, but as yet there is no life; "there was no breath in them". That is the main thought in life here.

F.H.C. Why is there no mention of blood in relation to the body in verses 5 and 6?

J.T. From another point of view, the blood is life, but that is not mentioned here; it is rather the thought of breath. Of course, in the life that we shall have in resurrection, there will be no blood. The humanity which God has in mind as answering to His purpose, is not blood and flesh, but that which Christ has now. He said: "Handle me and see, for a spirit has not flesh and bones as ye see me having", Luke 24:39. Our eternal condition will be like Christ's -- not flesh and blood, but flesh and bones; a new condition altogether, and the Spirit, as given, agrees with that. It says here, "there was no breath in them", which, according to

the footnote to verse 5, would be "spirit"; it is not said that there was no blood in them. The Spirit carries the idea of eternal life, so the Lord breathed into His disciples the breath of life (John 20:22).

F.H.L. John 5 speaks of resurrection and quickening. Is that suggested here?

J.T. I think so. Christ quickens and raises. "The Father raises the dead and quickens them, thus the Son also quickens whom he will". John 5:21.

A.R. Will you say something more about the thought of prophesying over the bones? They are affected by prophecy, and then Ezekiel also prophesies to the wind. It is a rare thought.

J.T. We have to view the whole scene as symbolic, but still we get the main thought of life, what is in the mind of God, whether for His earthly people or His heavenly people.

It is said in verse 1: "The hand of Jehovah was upon me, and Jehovah carried me out in the Spirit, and set me down in the midst of a valley" Ezekiel 37:1. That is the first thing to notice -- it is "in the midst of a valley". If we are to get a true idea of anything, God will put us into the circumstances surrounding it. We may talk about death and resurrection in a mere academic way and never touch the thing itself in our souls; so that the prophet is taken by God, as he says, "and set ... down in the midst of a valley". It is necessary to get into the circumstances in which the thing to be understood is set out or displayed. This was a valley "full of bones". Verse 2 says, "And he caused me to pass by them round about; and behold, there were very many in the open valley; and behold, they were very dry" Ezekiel 37:2; that is, one is to get the full view of what is to be dealt with; whether it be himself or others, and to see how God operates. I do not speak in a theoretical way when I get this view; I see, in a practical way, how the matter stands. It is a figure, and suggests the place of death, by the condition of these bones; and the question is,

"Shall these bones live?" Ezekiel 37:3. Jehovah does not tell the prophet they are dry bones. He sees that they are dry. As brought into the circumstances, I name the thing as it is. That is where I think we ought to begin: to name what we see from the position in which God places us. He has placed us where we can see the thing as it is.

R.W.S. Is there a certain urgency about it? It is not the word of Jehovah, but the hand of Jehovah upon him.

J.T. Just so; God seems to be taking on this service Himself, so that His servant should get a full intelligent view of the matter, and so He allows him to name what he sees. He says, "And behold, there were very many in the open valley; and behold, they were very dry" (Ezekiel 37:2). He is able to examine them and name the condition. There is to be another condition, but it is well to name the condition that exists.

C.H.H. That is what Nehemiah saw when he went out by the valley gate (Nehemiah 2:13).

J.T. That is a good passage to bring forward here. He came to Jerusalem, and he remained there three days; indicating that he had a composed state of mind in view of what he had to do. God would bring us round carefully to a right view of things that our minds might be restful; and we are brought into the circumstances with which we have to do. Nehemiah had been three days in Jerusalem, and then he went out by night to make a survey of the conditions. He tells us in detail what he did. So it is like the circumstances in our scripture. God would place us in the circumstances that enter into the subject on hand, and would let us look around and name what we see. Are we able to do it, or are we merely dealing with things theoretically? If it be only this, we shall never arrive at the spiritual thought.

J.H.E. Was that the trouble with the Sadducees? The Lord says, "Ye err, not knowing the scriptures nor

the power of God", Matthew 22:29. "God is not God of the dead, but of the living" (Matthew 22:32).

J.T. That is what comes out in the gospels in a general way. The Lord was constantly speaking about current conditions in Israel, and anyone who sought to get a right view would listen to Him. So His disciples, as with Him, got a right view of things, as did Elisha by being with Elijah in the different points which he visited before he was taken up to heaven.

Rem. Nicodemus knew the Scriptures theoretically, but not concretely.

J.T. I am sure that is right. He was a sincere man, but had not a right judgment of things; hence, the Lord has to put it to him: "Thou art the teacher of Israel and knowest not these things!" John 3:10. He had never been in the valley to see how dry the bones were. At God's direction Ezekiel goes into the valley. He takes him there, and then, "he caused me to pass by them round about", and then, without God saying anything to him, he says, "and behold, there were very many in the open valley; and behold, they were very dry" (Ezekiel 37:2). He could name the condition. And that is what marked the Lord here below. He was in the midst of the condition and named it. The gospels are largely taken up with telling us how He named things; and then He changed the condition by dying.

W.R. Is not Jeremiah's career at the outset marked by this insight? He says in chapter 1: "And the word of Jehovah came to me, saying, Jeremiah, what seest thou? And I said, I see a rod of an almond-tree. And Jehovah said unto me, Thou hast well seen; for I am watchful over my word to perform it. And the word of Jehovah came to me the second time, saying, What seest thou? And I said, I see a seething-pot, and its face is from the north" (Jeremiah 1:11 - 13).

J.T. That is good. You get it constantly in Scripture, and more particularly in the Lord's ministry, because everything was then under review. The Lord

came into the position. "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us" (John 1:14); He was not at a distance, but amongst the people, and saw things just as they were and named them. The great burden was to bring the true state of everything into evidence; to name it, and then to deal with it sacrificially. The Lord did that.

Ques. Is this prophecy to be considered in two sections, the first of which relates to bringing the dry bones together?

J.T. Yes. It runs on to the end of verse 14, and then we have another part relative to unity.

A.F.M. This chapter refers to breath and to wind. Are the thoughts combined?

J.T. In the original here the word is the same for breath and wind. The word is, first of all, "Shall these bones live?" Ezekiel said, "Lord Jehovah, thou knowest". And then, "Prophesy over these bones, and say unto them, Ye dry bones, hear the word of Jehovah. Thus saith the Lord Jehovah unto these bones: Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live" (Ezekiel 37:3 - 5). The proper name of wind when it is operating in the lungs, is breath. We have to notice here that it is not simply prophesying about the bones now, but to them. The ministry is to them; so that they are symbolic of a condition amongst God's people. The bones are really God's people, and the figure used indicates a condition in them under certain circumstances; hence, the prophecy is not about them, but to them, as I said. So he says, "and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a rustling, and the bones came together, bone to its bone. And I looked, and behold, sinews and flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them over; but there was no breath in them" (Ezekiel 37:7, 8). It is now a matter of "breath", the word covering life in us by wind or air, which operates in the lungs. Although there was actual formation, there was no breath; and as has been remarked, blood

is not mentioned. It is not the state of man in blood and flesh that is in mind; it is in principle the state contemplated in the Lord's breathing into His disciples. As applied at the present time, that is what is in mind. And then he is told to prophesy unto the wind: "Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Come from the four winds, O breath" (Ezekiel 37:9). It is the wind, active in the lungs, that God has in mind; that is, life in the sense of spirit. The Spirit is life.

E.E.H. How would you differentiate between the life that we get in Genesis, and the breath we are speaking of here?

J.T. It is the same idea. God breathed into Adam's nostrils. He must have used the ordinary atmosphere; but then, think of God doing that. We can only accept the fact that God did it; that He breathed into his nostrils and Adam became a living soul by that procedure.

R.W.S. Would you say something more about these bones: they are made much of in this scripture.

J.T. They are figurative of Israel, of course; "these bones are the whole house of Israel" (Ezekiel 37:11). They are symbolic of the state of Israel; a dry condition amongst the people of God; but then, applying the thought to an individual, it is a question of arriving at his individuality. The epistle to the Romans teaches us how one arrives at his individuality; that is, "I myself" Romans 7:25. The whole man is there before you get the idea of life in him. The writer arrived at the whole thought -- "I myself" -- in the end of chapter 7; and then in chapter 8, there is a state of life; life developed in him.

C.A.M. In John 3 we have the thought of wind; in John 4 the idea of water, and if I understand rightly, what is before us now is the idea of the wind in the upper part of the body -- the lungs.

J.T. The lower affections are in view in the water, as a figure of the Spirit, in chapter 4, but in the upper,

the wind or breath represents the Spirit; only John 3 does not say the believer gets the Spirit, it is rather the effect of the operation of the Spirit in him. "Except any one be born anew he cannot see the kingdom of God", John 3:3.

C.A.M. You were referring to John 20, to the Lord breathing into His disciples; but does it not seem that there is a sort of intimation in chapter 3 as to what was coming finally?

J.T. There is; "that which is born of the Spirit is spirit" John 3:6. That is the principle of the believer's being. The water does not produce what is positive. It does not say, Whatever is born of water is water. There is no positive thing produced by water; it is negative, as you might say. The Spirit brings in what is positive; new birth by the Spirit is a positive thing. It is spirit, the passage says; not Holy Spirit, but rather what corresponds to what we have in Ezekiel 36:26. "And I will give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit within you". In addition to that, redemption makes way for the reception of God's Holy Spirit; so chapter 36 also says, "And I will put my Spirit within you" (Ezekiel 36:27). That contemplates redemption.

A.N.W. When the Lord speaks of the wind blowing where it will, has He not the sovereignty of the Spirit in mind?

J.T. Yes; the wind is a symbol of the Spirit; indeed, it is the same word. The wind blowing is the inscrutable working of the Spirit in man; "The wind blows where it will, and thou hearest its voice, but knowest not whence it comes and where it goes", John 3:8. That is very much like what we get in Ezekiel 37, only it does not imply the Spirit given to the believer: "Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live" (Ezekiel 37:9). The winds are prophesied to. So that it is undoubtedly

the divine operation that is in view. But chapter 37 is more than new birth. It is that the Spirit of God is within them, symbolised in the winds.

A.B.P. Would you say new birth disregards past history, whereas resurrection embraces it?

J.T. Well, it deals with a condition of past history, the condition of the dryness of the bones, and they are going to be changed. Bone is coming to bone, and sinews and flesh and skin coming on, so that you have a body in result. Past history is really obliterated. The identity, of course, goes through, but as regards past history it is, in principle at least, obliterated, because it runs into this: "Behold all things have become new: and all things are of ... God", 2 Corinthians 5:17,18.

The inner organs are not mentioned here. It is just the general idea of a body -- a person. We do not get the inwards at all -- the lungs and reins which operate automatically inside -- but they are assumed to be there; otherwise the wind would not become breath. It is in the lungs that the wind becomes breath.

J.T.Jr. Would you connect 1 Corinthians 15 with this subject? It tells us that the body is sown a natural body and raised a spiritual body.

J.T. That chapter treats of the resurrection of believers in a literal, physical sense; what is before us now, as already said, is the resurrection of Israel in a collective or national sense. The application of this passage today therefore can only be in a moral and spiritual sense; it may be used profitably in relation to christians in whom there is little or no life or spiritual freshness. Help may come in through prophecy. That could not refer to literal death and resurrection. The Lord does not prophesy to those in their graves. They hear His voice and come forth. The use of prophecy here would show that these dry bones are symbolic of a condition among God's earthly people, and, as intimated, amongst ourselves at times.

A.R. I was wondering if we could say that prophecy amongst us today brings about a condition of life and freshness. Our prophetic meetings have this view.

J.T. Yes. We may find gatherings which are "dry", like this symbol suggests. You come to a given place, look around at the brethren, and you may be obliged to say, There is a very barren state of things here; although there is the breaking of bread, the condition is not right. What this chapter presents would cover circumstances of that kind.

Rem. The woman in John 4 seems to be an apt illustration of what you are saying. She perceived that Christ was a prophet, and life began to come into evidence as the result of the searching words He used to get at her condition.

J.T. Yes. But primarily this is "the whole house of Israel". It is not literal death that is in mind. It is symbolical of their actual national condition; and as we were saying, we might find that state among brethren in many localities, and what is needed is prophetic ministry.

Ques. Would the condition at Corinth be similar in a sense -- the apostle Paul being one who looked around?

J.T. Yes; he discerned what was there, and stressed the necessity for prophecy.

F.H.C. Is there a parallel thought between what comes out here and Acts 2:2, where we get the "violent impetuous blowing"? It is explained: "this is that which was spoken through the prophet Joel", Acts 2:16.

J.T. Yes; that was the gift of the Spirit; the Spirit from heaven, for testimony here. It brought about living conditions amongst the saints, too. This is strikingly a symbol of dry conditions among the people of God.

F.S.C. Should a prophet understand the condition in a locality before he prophesies?

J.T. Yes. We were remarking about Nehemiah. He stayed in Jerusalem three days before he did anything, and then he went out by night and viewed the walls of Jerusalem. We should notice how God brings a servant into accord with His mind in placing him in the conditions that have to be dealt with, and then He indicates what He is going to do. He questions him as to whether these bones can live, and the prophet replied, "Thou knowest"; and then Jehovah directed him to prophesy. There was to be prophesying to the bones, and then to the wind. The mind of God appears in the power of prophecy so that the divine results are reached. Ezekiel says, "And I prophesied as he had commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army" (Ezekiel 37:10). That is the result. They are acting themselves now. They stand up on their feet, "an exceeding great army".

Now having reached that point, we shall have to go on to the second half of the chapter which involves unity in the hand of Christ, that all these living persons gravitate towards each other and become one stick in the hand of Christ. That is the next lesson; how God will bring about unity in His earthly people; first, by bringing in a living state of things, and then unity in the hand of Christ.

Ques. There is a good deal of service today, and it is increasing, perhaps, but do you not think that if there is to be any result for God, the servants must be in the good of life themselves as Ezekiel was?

J.T. Exactly; being themselves in a place where they can form a judgment of what they have to deal with. That is what the prophet comes to here. He forms a judgment of what he must deal with, and then he prophesies, and the result is an army standing upon its feet. It does not say that they were told to stand up. They are acting of themselves now. Self-action is a well-known feature of life. They do what they should

do. Then the next thing is unity. "And the word of Jehovah came unto me, saying, And thou, son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel, his companions. And take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and all the house of Israel, his companions. And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thy hand" (Ezekiel 37:15 - 17). If you get the saints living, there will be self-action; it is expressed in the operation of the Spirit as living water, according to John 4, and as this exists there will be unity in the hand of Christ. Thus He can use us as in assembly.

J.H.E. So the one who ministers, as remarked, must be in the good of the thing. Ezekiel and Nehemiah are examples.

J.T. Yes. The result -- unity -- is reached, as indicated in the two sticks becoming one, and then there is a place for the sanctuary; that is the order in which the truth operates. The prophet first forms a judgment, he prophesies, and then he has two sticks denoting all Israel, and they are one in his hand. God uses them in unity, and then we get David as their king (verse 24). We have already had it before us that Christ is to reign as David, but then He is to be known in the last days of the assembly's history as David, too, which no doubt alludes to the sanctuary -- the service of God -- which is going on now; for the Davidic character of Christ's ministry at the end of the dispensation is clearly going on now. "These things saith the holy, the true; he that has the key of David, he who opens and no one shall shut, and shuts and no one shall open", Revelation 3:7. So the unity here is marked by "David my servant". He is seen as king, and shepherd, and prince. We have already noticed this in chapter 34, but now Christ is seen typically, in a living state of things as "David my servant"; and He is King, and Shepherd, and Prince in this chapter as in chapter 34; hence the sanctuary is brought in. So the end of the

chapter says, "And I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for ever. And my tabernacle shall be over them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And the nations shall know that I Jehovah do hallow Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for ever" (Ezekiel 37:26 - 28). I think what we have outlined is the teaching of this chapter. I believe it corresponds to what is going on at the present time. We shall have David ruling in Israel presently in a military way, but He is now operating in the assembly in relation to the service of God, which is the great feature of David.

A.F.M. Would that bring in the body according to 1 Corinthians? What is the difference between a stick and a rod? There are rods brought to Aaron earlier in the history of Israel; here it is a stick -- one stick.

J.T. "Stick" is more ordinary than the rod or staff used by Moses and Aaron. "Take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel, his companions. And take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph" (Ezekiel 37:16). It is material, wood, that can be written on, but it is in the hand as a stick. It is here symbolic of what, as in his hand, may be used for the expression of his will or thought. I believe the point to all this is being in the hand of Christ, in unity, for the service that He has in mind at any time.

Rem. The prophetic word comes first, and then the functioning of the assembly, in the latter part of the chapter.

J.T. I think we see from the passage that life takes place -- there is self-action -- they stand up on their feet. They are in liberty, we may say. Sonship, as applied, would enter into this in a practical way. And now we are in the hand of a Person who uses us for His own will or pleasure. That is the idea of the sticks, I think; they represent both houses of Israel. They are both in one hand; no more in a divided condition, but at the will of another. And then the sanctuary is

mentioned. It is very beautiful to see the function of David here. He is called "my servant", and he is king, and shepherd, and prince. As prince, I think personality is in mind, so that God might be known and have a sanctuary, and the nations should know that He hallows Israel. All this is in mind in God's disciplinary ways with His people.

F.S.C. Would you tell us the difference between the everlasting covenant here, and the new covenant in Jeremiah 31?

J.T. The new covenant is with the house of Israel and Judah and would enter into this. The thought of newness is stressed there, the first being made old and abrogated: in the new covenant God began afresh with His people. The everlasting covenant implies permanency: it goes right through.

F.S.C. Is Hebrews 13 the same thought?

J.T. That is right; the word "everlasting" would be that it goes through; it is not temporary. It marked God's covenants with Noah, Abraham, David, and (involving the new covenant) Israel. A covenant thus presented depends wholly on God Himself.

A.B.P. Does the word, "Let everything that hath breath praise Jah", Psalm 150:6, suggest unity and self-action?

J.T. Yes; the service of God requires persons in life and liberty. We are made to live in sonship. And, as seen here, we are in the hand of Christ. That is what you get in the second part of the chapter, where, as said, we have David the king, David the shepherd, and David the prince. So we have a sanctuary in full testimony to God (verse 28).

A.N.W. Would you say a word about the element of inquiry suggested in verse 18? "And when the children of my people speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not declare unto us what thou meanest by these?" Ezekiel 37:18. Would you think that in reaching the high level of

which we have been speaking, there was that incitement of inquiry, even before the prophetic word is given?

J.T. Quite so; the idea of inquiry runs right through. It indicates intelligence -- that we are thoughtful -- that we are not inert. Even the prophet here is inquired of by Jehovah, "Shall these bones live?" Thus He brings us into what He is unfolding, and normally the believer wants to know. It is a mark of intelligence when in this respect there is inquiry.

W.B-w. The prophet is called upon here to join them one to another. How does that work out today? Does the prophetic ministry come in to join one to another?

J.T. "Join them one to another into one stick" would be the Lord's action. It is the prophet, as a type; but he merges into the idea of Christ in David. The Lord is constantly seeking to bring us into unity.

W.B-w. Is it not through the prophetic ministry that it is being worked out?

J.T. Where the prophetic ministry is introduced, at the end of 1 Corinthians 12 we have, "But desire earnestly the greater gifts, and yet show I unto you a way of more surpassing excellence" (1 Corinthians 12:31); that is, before you have the effect of the gift of prophecy, you must have love. So that the way of "surpassing excellence" is the working out of love in chapter 13, and that has in mind the making of one stick, as seen here. How can we be joined one to another and made one, save as we love one another? We are of the same material; there is cohesion amongst us when love is operative and no foreign element is allowed place.

W.B-w. This would be in advance of "an exceeding great army". Joining one to another is the principle of Levi, is it not?

J.T. Quite so; Levi means "joined".

J.T.Jr. Would that be seen in Peter and John in Acts at the Beautiful gate? The thought of unity is in those two men, and the result of their ministry is really the sanctuary.

J.T. That brings up another important point: the insertion of the word "assembly" at the end of Acts 2 is disputed, and no doubt rightly. It is probably "the Lord added together", in verse 47. It is the Lord doing it -- adding daily "those that were to be saved"; and then Peter and John going up to the temple said, "Look on us". It is a beautiful result that they are joined in holy love. There can be no true joining except in love.

Ques. If the summit is now reached in this chapter, what is the import of Gog and Magog?

J.T. Well, that is the next thing to observe. We must first reach the great position of chapter 37, which can only be entered into on the principle of life and unity and the service of God in the sanctuary. Gog is perhaps the most powerful enemy that comes against Israel, according to the description of him, but the point in these chapters is to show that God brings him up against His people to destroy him and to show in him His power on behalf of His people; so that the greatest display of opposition is ordered of God to manifest how much He loves His people. He says, in effect, I brought you up for that purpose. He is behind this great combination under Gog as He was behind the existence of Pharaoh. "And for this very cause have I raised thee up, to shew thee my power", Exodus 9:16. The greatest opposition of power against the people of God, as represented in Gog and Magog and Persia, Cush, Phut, Gomer, and the house of Togarmah only becomes the means with God of showing His power, and that He loves His people. That is the lesson in chapters 38 and 39. God says in effect to them, You are going up to the land that had been uninhabited because I had to deal with My people. Now the inhabitants have come back to it, and you think they are defenceless and you are coming up to take a spoil, and I am going to show you what I think of them by what I will do with you. So God destroys this immense army in the land of Israel.

The burial place is in the neighbourhood of the Dead Sea, according to the prophecy, and it takes seven months to bury Gog and his multitude, and all in the land are engaged in it. That is remarkable! It is simply a question of burying them; to put them out of sight for ever. In solemn irony (verses 17 - 20), God invites the birds and beasts to His "great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel" to eat the flesh of the mighty and drink the blood of the princes of the earth. It is the fierce judgment of God against the enemies of His people. Thus He shows to all that He loves His people. Although He had to discipline them severely, He had brought them back now, and would not allow their enemies to touch them. He rained great hailstones, fire and brimstone upon them, as in the days of Joshua; so there is complete destruction of this the greatest enemy that ever came up against God's people. "And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord Jehovah: every man's sword shall be against his brother. And I will enter into judgment with him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many peoples that are with him, overflowing rain and great hailstones, fire and brimstone" (Ezekiel 38:21, 22).

Ques. Does it coincide somewhat with the attack upon the beloved city?

J.T. It is the same enemy. That attack will be a later one; it will be after the millennium, but still it is the same sort of thing. In Revelation 20 the enemies come up on "the breadth of the earth". It is man generally, in Satan's domain, but this is a northern enemy.

C.A.M. Fire only is used for their destruction in Revelation 20, which would be a feature of final judgment. I was thinking of the remarks made as to David; especially as relating to the service of God. It seems to give great meaning to what the Lord is doing at the present moment.

J.T. That is what I thought we might see. There is going on today, the service of Christ as David in relation to the service of God; presently, in Israel, it will be the military prowess of Christ as David. So that this immense invading army is brought on to the very territory of God's people, but they are utterly destroyed. It seems to be human power combined against the people of God. What can man do? The greatest military effort that he has ever made is seen here, and now they are lying on the ground unburied. Their carcases defile the land, and it takes seven months or more to bury them, so that the land may be cleansed (verse 16). And for seven years fires are made with the weapons of war (verse 9). In all this God pours scorn on modern huge armies and armaments.

Ques. Coming from the north would suggest discipline; but of a kind that would bring out favourable conditions in the end, do you think?

J.T. It is to bring out what God does for His people. He could have prevented this attack, but instead, He brought this immense army up so that He might show His power on behalf of His people in destroying it in their land.

R.W.S. Does this furnish material for praise in the sanctuary?

J.T. I am sure it does. The Psalms furnish such material as the result of victories granted to God's people. Psalm 18 is a good example.

A.R. Do you think that we can count on divine intervention now, to the end of the assembly's history on earth, in order that the service of song may go on?

J.T. I think that is the lesson here in chapters 38 and 39; that God will deal with human power, however great, and He signalises His people in doing so, so we need not fear. God can deal effectively with the greatest array of human power against His people.

A.N.W. Does not the light of chapter 37 -- the bones becoming an "exceeding great army" -- have a direct bearing on this chapter?

J.T. I think so. The first, the raising; the second, the burial of their enemies.

W.G.T. Burial in this sense is important today as regards assembly judgment. It speaks here of a sign to be put up wherever burial is needed, as if the judgment is to be carried to the end, being divinely required.

J.T. Quite so; so that discipline amongst us ought to culminate in burial; the removal, in this sense, of what is offensive amongst the people of God. For seven months they will have searched the land, and if they find a bone, they will put a sign on it; that is, if anything is wrong with one, a sign is put on him to show he is a brother that has to be looked after, to see that what is offensive is fully dealt with. That can be brought about by faithful prophetic ministry.

A.R. Does the last verse of chapter 39 indicate how great the position is? God says, "I will not hide my face any more from them" (Ezekiel 39:29). The Lord hid Himself from Israel (John 12:36).

J.T. In the prophet Isaiah it says He hides His face from the house of Jacob; but He is not doing it at the time contemplated in our chapter. In Isaiah, Messiah says, "And I will wait for Jehovah, who hideth his face from the house of Jacob", Isaiah 8:17. Here we have, "And I will not hide my face any more from them, for I shall have poured out my Spirit upon the house of Israel", Ezekiel 39:29.

READINGS ON EZEKIEL (9)

Ezekiel 40:1 - 16; Ezekiel 41:1 - 4; Ezekiel 42:15 - 20

J.T. It has been suggested that we look at chapters 40, 41, and 42 at this reading. The detail of these chapters is unusually great, but, in general, the house and its precincts are in view. It will be observed that there are three gates entering the outer court; one from the east, one from the north, and one from the south; and three gates entering the inner court where the house stands, corresponding to those in the outer court. Those in the inner court have eight steps, whereas those in the outer have seven steps. There are a great many details as to the buildings: the house itself, the building before the separate place, which would be on the west side, the use of which is unspecified, and a large number of chambers for the use of the priests. Then in the end of chapter 42, a large area is described, which is five hundred reeds square. This is said to be the "separation between that which was holy and that which was common" Ezekiel 42:20.

It is needful to fit into our minds the general plan in order to follow the detail. No doubt but few of us have the complete plan in our minds, for it is very complicated, but we can take in the general idea. There are three spheres; the outer and inner courts and then the outer extensive area, which is around the outer and inner spheres, and measures five hundred reeds on each side. It is a spiritual matter, of course. The prophet was taken into the land of Israel and set by Jehovah upon a very high mountain, "and upon it was as the building of a city, on the south. And he brought me thither, and behold, there was a man whose appearance was like the appearance of brass, with a flax-cord in his hand, and a measuring-reed; and he stood in the gate. And the man said unto me, Son of man, behold with thine eyes, and hear with thine ears, and set thy

heart upon all that I shall show thee; for in order that it might be shown unto thee art thou brought hither. Declare to the house of Israel all that thou seest" (Ezekiel 40:2 - 4). The last sentence conveys the moral side; what Ezekiel saw was to be declared to the house of Israel. Correspondingly, it has application to ourselves; the truth as seen here is to be known to us. This thought is enlarged upon in chapter 43, where we are told what Ezekiel was to show the house of Israel: "Thou, son of man, shew the house to the house of Israel, that they may be confounded at their iniquities; and let them measure the pattern. And if they be confounded at all that they have done, make known to them the form of the house, and its fashion, and its goings out, and its comings in, and all its forms, and all its statutes, yea, all the forms thereof, and all the laws thereof; and write it in their sight, that they may keep the whole form thereof, and all the statutes thereof, and do them" (Ezekiel 43:10, 11). This is the moral side of the subject, which the Spirit would apply to us; and if there is any self-judgment resulting from what is shown to us, more will be shown. The passage says, "if they be confounded at all that they have done, make known to them the form of the house, and its fashion" Ezekiel 43:11. So that as we receive the truth of the house of God, and it affects us in a moral sense, more will be shown. That is the principle. God is not ready to entertain our natural minds. Indeed, it is said in an earlier chapter that those who listened to Ezekiel regarded his ministry as though it were just a pleasant song. The ministry must have a moral effect upon us, otherwise there is no profit to us, but if it has this effect, more will be ministered.

A.B.P. Would the word "confounded" (Ezekiel 43:10), be the realisation of how far short we come of what the details of the house represent? Would not present ministry indicate to us how far short we come of what God's thought is?

J.T. It would. The intent of all the ministry the Spirit gives, is to convey the mind of God and the variety of it, as seen in the Scriptures. If there be moral response in self-judgment (for if we are true, we are bound to see that there is a great discrepancy between our moral condition and what is presented as the divine ideal) there will be growth. So that, as we are looking into these chapters, the moral and spiritual features are what the Lord would stress, and if I judge myself as I see the discrepancies, then I shall be helped.

A.R. Do these chapters set out what God has before Him? Ezekiel is taken up to this mountain and sees a city, and then he is shown the house and its measurements. Is that what God has before Him, and what we come into if there is moral correspondence?

J.T. Quite so; you are reminded of the mount of transfiguration. The three disciples were taken up, as Ezekiel is here, to a high mountain. Ezekiel saw the house; the three disciples saw more. It is noteworthy that in our chapter, the city is left for the moment; it is there, but the detail of the house is given first; the city comes afterwards.

F.H.L. Does all this follow on chapter 39, where God's face is towards them, and the pouring out of the Spirit is promised (verse 29)?

J.T. Exactly; the position is that the enemy is destroyed; there is no adversary or evil occurrent and God is now free to unfold His great thoughts in the sanctuary.

C.H.H. Ezekiel was shown these things. Would that correspond to teaching after prophesying? Would the gift of teaching follow the prophet?

J.T. Yes; there is no formal prophesying after chapter 39; it is showing now. We are on the mount with God. There is the instruction as to measurements, for He is the God of measure, and everything must conform to divine measure. He unfolded the details

of the tabernacle to Moses; He showed him "the pattern". Everything was to be done and made according to that pattern. It was one tabernacle. So also David had the pattern of the house by the Spirit (1 Chronicles 28:12). There was great variety of detail. And now Ezekiel is shown this abiding house, and we are impressed with measure, which relates to so much remarkable detail. The intricacy of it is remarkable and it must be owned that it is difficult to follow in detail, but there is a man here who shows it, which is very encouraging. It is the man who has the measuring-reed: "there was a man whose appearance was like the appearance of brass, with a flax-cord in his hand, and a measuring-reed; and he stood in the gate" (Ezekiel 40:3). We should pay attention to this man. His appearance, it says, is the appearance of brass; that is how he appears. We have already seen in this book that an appearance is intended to produce an abiding impression. We are formed by impressions received from what is presented to us. As the Lord said to Paul, "For this purpose have I appeared to thee", Acts 26:16. This man stands athwart the entrance as it were, he is in the gate, with two measuring instruments. The appearance of brass would remind us that there is no toleration of any fleshly activity, such as Israel had shown. God is now adhering to His own measurements, but still it is a man who is measuring; one who has sympathies, reminding us of all the teaching that has come to us with regard to the house of God. As Paul wrote to Timothy, "that thou mayest know how one ought to conduct oneself in God's house", 1 Timothy 3:15. In this connection it is striking that the Lord says that authority to execute judgment is given to Him because He is Son of man (John 5:27).

A.R. Would you say that Solomon stood in this way as seen in 1 Kings 1 and 1 Kings 2? Before he set out to establish his kingdom, there was the appearance of brass in dealing with certain men.

J.T. That is right; and God appeared to him twice. That is brought up at the time of his failure, 1 Kings 11:9.

A.N.W. Would not the minuteness and intricacy of the details in our chapter impress us with how particular God is in regard to everything that pertains to His dwelling place?

J.T. Quite so; you are struck with that, the remarkable detail with which God reminds His people of their sins in the prophets. One has been greatly struck with that of late -- the detail you get in the different prophets -- the symbols and similes used to bring the truth home to the people of God. And so here, I suppose, the measurements being so extensive and detailed would be to remind us of divine accuracy. We are to be formed by the impressions received, so as to be in His sanctuary in a suitable way.

A.N.W. There is nothing in which man is so rude as in the intrusion of his own ideas in regard to the house of God and His service.

A.F.M. Does the law of the house summarise the general outlook from which to view the house? "This is the law of the house" (Ezekiel 43:12), and then, "its border round about is most holy". I wonder whether that implies a rule by which we should walk with God so as to see with Him what He is setting forth -- He is "most holy".

J.T. Yes: "Upon the top of the mountain all its border round about is most holy" Ezekiel 43:12.

R.W.S. Is it as our senses are exercised (Hebrews 5:14), that these things will be shown to us?

J.T. Yes; and we need to give ourselves to these things. We are often very casual as to divine things. One knows that in oneself. We come to a meeting like this and have no thought of contributing at all. We regard that as a matter for others to do, but if I am to get the gain of an enquiry like this, I ought to look into the matter myself; it is a matter of giving oneself

wholly to these things, as Paul said to Timothy; fully following up what is presented (1 Timothy 4:15, 16; 2 Timothy 3:10 and note). As you dwell upon something that seems most difficult, it gradually opens up to you, for the Spirit of God is here for that purpose, to guide us into all the truth (John 16:13). We have to set our minds on these things, so verse 4 of chapter 40 says: "behold with thine eyes, and hear with thine ears, and set thy heart upon all that I shall show thee; for in order that it might be shown unto thee art thou brought hither" Ezekiel 40:4. It was most important for Ezekiel to pay close attention. He was to declare what he saw to the house of Israel; so that the Lord would impress us with the necessity of paying attention to the Scriptures.

J.H.E. Would there be something akin to that in Acts 19? Paul went through the upper districts to Ephesus; and then the school of Tyrannus and the teaching are introduced.

J.T. Quite so; the general idea is presented in his going through the upper districts, taking a wide circuit: he went up through Caesarea, saluting the assembly, then coming back by the upper districts to Ephesus, and what he found there led to the extended work in the school of Tyrannus. What an opening up of the mind of God would be there! We must listen to Tyrannus; there must be real learning.

C.H.H. Would the apostle Paul be like the man in appearance of brass, in the details he gives as to the law of the house in 1 Corinthians?

J.T. Yes; I think the brass is seen there, Paul is very plain-spoken in dealing with evil. One of the things he mentions first is that there were divisions among the brethren. Now we read of this man with the measuring-reed, in verse 5: "And behold, there was a wall on the outside of the house round about, and in the man's hand a measuring-reed of six cubits, each of one cubit and a hand breadth. And he measured the breadth of the building, one reed; and the height,

one reed". That would be the wall, obviously. It would be about ten feet thick and the same height -- one reed. "And he came to the gate which looked toward the east, and went up its steps; and he measured the threshold of the gate, one reed broad; and the other threshold one reed broad. And each chamber was one reed long and one reed broad; and between the chambers were five cubits; and the threshold of the gate, beside the porch of the gate within, was one reed. And he measured the porch of the gate within, one reed" (Ezekiel 40:6 - 8). I think that one thing to notice particularly is the uniformity of measure which is apparent as you approach the house.

The flax-cord is first mentioned and then the measuring-reed. The flax-cord is pliable; having it, we miss nothing. We do not know how long it was, but the reed is measured; it was six cubits; so that there are two principles of measurement: the reed suggesting what is fixed, and the flax, which is undefined, needing more care in its use, but everything was measured. Paul says to the Corinthians, "according to the measure of the rule which the God of measure has apportioned to us, to reach to you also", 2 Corinthians 10:13. Most of us are very local, but the flax-cord, I think, would mean a more general measurement, that you stretch out and reach to people in an extended way. The flax-cord would augment the reed; it could be employed in circumstances where the reed would fail.

C.H.H. Would the thought of righteousness enter into the flax?

J.T. I suppose so; "the fine linen is the righteousnesses of the saints", Revelation 19:8. Sobriety is also implied.

A.R. Had you anything more in your mind to suggest in regard to uniformity in these measurements?

J.T. That is the first thing that impresses one -- uniformity of measurement -- one reed. A brother or sister coming into fellowship is, no doubt, impressed with the uniformity of the brethren; that is, if we are

normal, there is uniform measurement. There is also the effect of beholding the glory: "We all, looking on the glory of the Lord, with unveiled face, are transformed according to the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Lord the Spirit" (2 Corinthians 3:18); there is uniformity among the brethren through the ministry of the Spirit. Paul says also, "Thus I ordain in all the assemblies", 1 Corinthians 7:17.

W.B-w. What is the force of measuring the threshold of the gate? Does that refer to persons coming into fellowship?

J.T. I think so. It was a long and remarkable gate, and half as broad as it was long. The three outer gates were alike, and the inner gates were nearly like them. The size, or extent, of the gates, is striking -- fifty cubits by twenty-five. You go through many things to reach the inner from the outer. In the description of the house and its precincts the idea of gate is impressed upon you. It is not merely a door, or a gate in the ordinary sense: many things enter into each of these gates. You are conscious in going through, that something very great and blessed is to be reached. The extra step in each of the inner gates is specially to be noted.

A.N.W. By 'uniformity', do you mean that the brethren, if they are in order, are just as much concerned about administrative matters in the gate as they are in relation to the house, or dwelling place?

J.T. That is the thought. The same things appear in all the outer gates, and each gate is complete in itself. All is educational as one goes through. Spiritual suggestions are to be observed everywhere. You have no such description of the gates elsewhere, not even in the holy city.

A.B.P. Is there somewhat of a parallel in John's ministry? Would not his gospel suggest very early that if we are to know anything about the dwelling place of God, as in Christ, we must "come and see"? John 1:39. And

would the abode to which the two disciples went, who followed Jesus, be like one of the "chambers" that are spoken of here, imparting definite inward impressions of Christ?

J.T. Quite so; the Lord would not take those two disciples into the holiest at once. They say, "Where abidest thou?" He says, "Come and see"; but He did not take them into the holiest, if you understand what I mean. In Ezekiel 41, for instance, we are told in verse 3: "And he went inwards, and measured the post of the entry, two cubits; and the entry, six cubits; and the breadth of the entry, seven cubits. And he measured its length, twenty cubits; and the breadth, twenty cubits, before the temple: and he said unto me, This is the most holy place" Ezekiel 41:3,4. That is the holiest of all. Notice, the measurer does not take Ezekiel in there. He took him elsewhere to show what there was, but he did not take him in here. He goes in himself and measures. So that I thought the Lord would not take the two who followed Him very far at the outset. They would not be equal to it. The outer gate before us here had chambers. These chambers were not the holiest. We may have secrecy with the Lord, and yet not come into the holiest.

A.B.P. Would the disciples reach that in John 17?

J.T. That reaches to the holiest; they are called "men" there. It is men who enter in there. Peter had owned Christ earlier as "the holy one of God" (John 6:69), and through Him as such they would enter the holiest.

A.R. He had to wait till chapter 43, did he not? It says, "The Spirit lifted me up, and brought me into the inner court; and behold, the glory of Jehovah filled the house. And I heard one speaking unto me out of the house; and a man was standing by me" (Ezekiel 43:5, 6).

J.T. Well, that, of course, is the inner court, but it is not the holiest, although it is in the direction of it, and the passage may be used to show how the Spirit

leads us inwardly as in the assembly. But here Ezekiel is only taken to the inner court. It is clear that Israel does not enter the holiest even in the future.

A.R. How far does the inner court go?

J.T. The inner court is eight steps higher than the outer court, and the altar stood there (Ezekiel 40:47). It was into that court that Ezekiel was brought, but the glory of Jehovah filled the house. He could not see that from the court, and that is what we are dealing with. We have to go from one court into the other. And, as we suggested, when the Lord took the two disciples to where He abode, He would not take them into the holiest. He may have taken them, as it were, into one of these cells in the outer gate, but in John 17 you have the holiest; I mean to say, the Lord is speaking there as a Man to His Father, and the disciples are viewed as men which the Father gave Him, and they are apparently listening to Him.

F.N.W. The Lord says in John 16:12, "I have yet many things to say to you, but ye cannot bear them now", and then He refers to the Spirit's coming.

J.T. Quite so; we have to learn patiently, and the Lord takes us as far as we can go at any particular time.

C.A.M. Does that not make the assembly's place very wonderful? As to Israel, if I understand rightly, the veil will be there in the day to come; they will not go right in.

J.T. It would seem so from what we get here. I think that only those who form the assembly have access into the holiest of all. That is a point that the writer to the Hebrews makes, that we can go inside. The angel does not take Ezekiel in, he goes in and measures it himself.

C.A.M. 2 Chronicles seems to confirm that. The veil is there, according to 2 Chronicles 3:14.

J.T. Quite so. After Numbers the veil is mentioned only once, that is, in 2 Chronicles 3:14, until we come

to the New Testament. The account of the temple in 2 Chronicles points to the millennium, whereas 1 Kings contemplates the heavenly side, and hence there is no veil.

J.T.Jr. Would the object of the apostle in relation to the Corinthians correspond with this? In the first epistle he could hardly contemplate the Corinthians entering into the holiest, so that in 1 Corinthians 2:7 he says, "But we speak God's wisdom", and, in verse 11, "thus also the things of God knows no one except the Spirit of God". Spiritual things would be understood by the spiritual, the natural mind would be shut out; it cannot know them.

J.T. He says, "For I did not judge it well to know anything among you save Jesus Christ, and him crucified" (1 Corinthians 2:2). He would not go further. And that confirms what we are saying, that the Spirit of God takes us, according to His wisdom, as far as we should go in view of our state.

Rem. The apostle, as was said earlier, passed through the upper coasts and arrived at Ephesus; whereas Apollos was evidently left at Corinth on a lower level of the truth than the apostle was now entering on in continuing his service.

J.T. That is a good thought, because the position at Corinth needed to be held by a man like Apollos in the absence of Paul; whereas Ephesians involved the building according to the inward and spiritual side of the truth. The outward must be held, and Corinth represents that side. Even if they cannot go the whole way, they are to be held by proper ministry. All the saints are to be held, even though some do not go very far, but if one is spiritual he must not be hindered from going on himself The whole field of truth is open to us.

A.R. Would the idea of measurement be suggested in the way in which the apostle addressed the saints in each locality to which he wrote? So that Corinth's

measure would be according to his epistles to that assembly, and the same principle would apply at Colosse and Ephesus.

J.T. Quite so. Every epistle contemplates a certain state in those addressed, and that to Ephesus goes the furthest, because it says, "And has raised us up together, and has made us sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus", Ephesus 2:6. That is the full elevation purposed for us.

W.B-w. Would chapter 40 describe the public side of the assembly; whereas chapters 41 and 42 would be more what is private and inward?

J.T. That is right. It is generally the court and the gates in chapter 40. However, in verse 48 the prophet says: "And he brought me to the porch of the house" Ezekiel 40:48. He is now in the inner court, into which the porch of the house projects. "The length of the porch was twenty cubits, and the breadth eleven cubits, even by the steps whereby they went up to it; and there were pillars by the posts, one on this side, and one on that side" (Ezekiel 40:49). That is all of the house that is described in chapter 40. Then chapter 41 opens, "And he brought me to the temple". Now we are getting further inward. "And he measured the posts, six cubits broad on the one side, and six cubits broad on the other side, the breadth of the tent" (the meaning of the word "tent" is uncertain here; it may be "porch"). "And the breadth of the entry was ten cubits, and the sides of the entry were five cubits on this side, and five cubits on that side; and he measured its length, forty cubits, and the breadth, twenty cubits" (Ezekiel 41:1, 2). The prophet is brought into the temple viewed as a whole, but not into the holiest. The measurement here is forty cubits, like Solomon's temple, and the holiest is said to be twenty cubits square; also like Solomon's save as to height. In the measurements of Solomon's temple breadth and length and height are given; here it is just the breadth and length; the height of the house is

not given. Otherwise it corresponds in dimensions to Solomon's temple.

C.H.H. Would chapter 41 correspond to the Philadelphian position? "He that overcomes, him will I make a pillar in the temple of my God", Revelation 3:12.

J.T. Quite so; there are pillars here (Ezekiel 40:49), as in Solomon's temple.

J.H.E. You were speaking about going further inward. Paul says in Ephesians 3:3,4 "according as I have written before briefly, by which, in reading it, ye can understand my intelligence in the mystery of the Christ". Would that involve further truth which the apostle would have the Ephesians reach?

J.T. Quite so; it is a comfort to know that somebody knows. That is what he brings out in that passage. He would have them to know of his intelligence in the mystery of the Christ. If somebody knows, why not I? Well, as we have been saying, the gates, as described in chapter 40, are most important, especially for young people; the length is to be noted: fifty cubits. All the outer gates are alike; they all have the same dimensions. It would take considerable time to go through them; and there is much to see before one gets into the outer court. It is intended that we should be impressed with the fact that we are dealing with great things. We cannot take them in all at once. We must take the place of learners; learning "in part". There are "chambers", which would indicate places of privacy for prayer or meditation.

F.S.C. Why are there but three gates mentioned? The passage refers to only east, north, and south.

J.T. There is no gate at the west. There are but three gates entering to the outer court and three entering into the inner court. The west points to the setting sun. It is not the cheerful side of the position. You come in cheerfully; not under the dulling influence of your business, or your domestic affairs. The full thought of entrance is in the east gate; that is, toward the sun-rising.

The suggestion is that you are in the light of Christ; that Christ is shining on you all the time. Later it is stated that "Jehovah, the God of Israel, hath entered in by it"; that is, by the east gate of the house (Ezekiel 43:4; Ezekiel 44:2). As the east gate is the one described, it conveys the general idea. The prince entered by the porch of this gate, also by the corresponding gate to the inner court, and as the God of Israel came in by the east gate it was to be kept shut. The inner gate was also to be "shut the six working-days" (Ezekiel 46:1), but opened on the sabbath and on the day of the new moon; the people were to worship at the door of it on those days (Ezekiel 46:3).

J.T.Jr. Would you say, then, that we come in according to David? Is David the model for us as entering into the house of God? He went in and sat before the Lord (2 Samuel 7). And then what comes out, especially at the end of his ministry, leads to the service of praise. David seems to give a lead to the whole position.

J.T. David goes into the house in the light of the message through Nathan. The thought in Scripture is that we enter the assembly in the light of a message. The disciples did, according to John 20. The Psalms say much about the house of God; they speak also of how we are to enter into it: "In the greatness of thy loving-kindness will I enter thy house", Psalm 5:7. "For a day in thy courts is better than a thousand", Psalm 84:10. And again, "Enter into his gates with thanksgiving and into his courts with praise", Psalm 100:4.

E.E.H. How would you view the man in John 9 in relation to the gates of which you speak? He develops very rapidly in his apprehension of the Lord.

J.T. He does; and as coming to know Christ as the Son of God he would come into the light of the house. Chapter 10 leads in that direction. What we are considering now is with a view to bringing before the young people especially, that we come in, in the

light of a message, to the greatest light there is for us. We enter into the house of God in the light furnished us for it. The Son sets us free indeed; we are thus in the house in liberty. David entered in the light of sonship, according to 2 Samuel 7, as we have seen.

A.B.P. The man in John 5 missed the sheep gate, but the man of chapter 9 found it in chapter 10.

J.T. Quite so; but first, the Shepherd found him. Christ was the door to him into salvation, liberty and pasture. I believe the Lord is allowing much sorrow among us, because many do not come in rightly. They do not come in, in light. You wonder sometimes what people have in their minds in seeking to come into fellowship. The idea is to come in in light; the light is furnished to us. "Thou, dost thou believe on the Son of God?" the Lord said to the man. And he said, "I believe, Lord: and he did him homage" (John 9:38). That man will not cause trouble. He will not leave us; he will go on. He will know that the sheep's place is fixed. The sheep never perish; they are in the Son's hand, and also in the Father's hand.

N.P. In Revelation, the holy city has three gates on each side, but in the temple there are only three gates in all. What difference do you make?

J.T. This temple is a provisional thing; it represents what is down here, but the heavenly city comes down from God out of heaven, having the glory of God. Its bearing is universal. This temple with which we are dealing, will be on earth in the future, and does not correspond with the heavenly city. Indeed, it is not a city; it is a house. The tabernacle had but one door in it, as did also Solomon's temple. Here we have two added, so that there is increase, but in the heavenly city we have twelve gates -- it is an administrative and universal thought. As to gates here, we must note that they do not furnish immediate entrance to the house; only to the courts; the house itself has but one door or

entrance. These gates -- six in all -- are peculiar to this sanctuary.

A.R. I was wondering if the apostle in his first epistle to the Corinthians would support what you were saying about coming into the assembly: "For I received from the Lord, that which I also delivered to you" 1 Corinthians 11:23.

J.T. Quite so. There are many of these messages bearing on the assembly and they are most important.

F.H.C. Would you say that one coming into fellowship in any local position should have both seen the Lord and heard His voice, and in that sense he becomes a distinct asset to the position?

J.T. Yes. He has come to stay, as it were. He has come in. The scene presented to us here implies that you go in and in and in. The gates are long, and as entering we can go into one of the chambers in the gate and enjoy things there; but we do not yet reach even the outer court; so that we should be humble and learn from step to step, and thus be prepared for what is within.

Rem. Mark, the attendant of Paul and Barnabas, did not go very far before he found that the spiritual way was too hard; whereas Timothy seems to take things up from a more constructive standpoint, fully following up Paul's ministry.

J.T. Quite so; so that the dimensions of the gates, although for all of us, are particularly for young christians seeking to be with the brethren. Let each see if he can appreciate this gate before he goes in further; and let him consider the items mentioned. He will be impressed with one thing -- the measurement -- the uniformity of it; how, normally, the brethren are all alike. There is no contention among them. Paul found there was contention at Corinth, which is the negative of all we see here. They said, "I am of Paul"; "I of Apollos", but the description of the gates would condemn such conditions. There are living spiritual conditions

in these gates for a certain state of soul. If you are more advanced in the things of God, you will want to go further, but there are certain living conditions in the gates.

C.N. Would you say that the two going to Emmaus came to what you have in mind? That is, they were going from the company, but as they came in contact with the Lord they returned, and they had what corresponds to a message. They would never turn their backs upon the saints again.

J.T. I am sure they never left after that. I believe they would be strong supporters of the divine position henceforth; in fact, their remarks enter into the idea in the gates, you might say. They were speaking of the Lord having been made known unto them in the breaking of bread.

R.W.S. Was it normal for Jacob to say, "How dreadful is this place! this is none other but the house of God, and this is the gate of heaven"? Genesis 28:17.

J.T. It was very abnormal. There is nothing dreadful about the description of this gate; it leads to the house of God.

R.W.S. I raised that question because of the practical application of what you said about young believers; Jacob sets his face to go away from it.

J.T. Many young ones are seeking to come in amongst us because others are here; the needful moral process has not therefore been gone through. The gate described here is fifty cubits long; it is still a gate after you have walked fifty cubits, so that the idea of a gate is impressed upon you; there are many things in it; chambers, palm trees, and the like.

A.C-r. In regard to this long gate: it does not mean that we should be unduly slow in receiving anyone, does it?

J.T. Strictly speaking, we do not receive anyone. It does say in Romans, "Wherefore receive ye one another, according as the Christ also has received you

to the glory of God" (Romans 15:7). That is personal; but as regards the fellowship, those who wash their robes have a right to enter by the gates (Revelation 22:14).

A.C-r. We sometimes speak about being doorkeepers, but I do not think a person should ordinarily have to wait seven or eight weeks before he comes into fellowship.

J.T. You would not deny that the matter should be enquired into carefully, but you probably have in mind the legal element objecting. From the standpoint of John's gospel, the Jews are always kept out; they are always against Christ. The Jews represent the legal element and are not trustworthy; so that the doors were shut for fear of the Jews. To be afraid of the Jews, that is, people characterised by a hard, legal mind, is a wholesome thing. We should be able to discern in one or two visits to a brother or sister, or in their moving in and out amongst us, if these persons wash their robes. If he is washing his robes, he has a right to enter by the gates into the city, and to partake of the tree of life.

A.B.P. Do you have in mind that the passage through this gate would be like the consolidation of the position in the soul of the entrant?

J.T. There is nothing repellent about the gate. It is so important, that we might look a little at the detailed description that is given. "And he came to the gate which looked toward the east, and went up its steps; and he measured the threshold of the gate, one reed broad; and the other threshold one reed broad. And each chamber was one reed long and one reed broad; and between the chambers were five cubits; and the threshold of the gate, beside the porch of the gate within, was one reed. And he measured the porch of the gate within, one reed. And he measured the porch of the gate, eight cubits; and the posts thereof, two cubits; and the porch of the gate was inward. And the chambers of the gate which was toward the