2 Samuel 12:16 - 23

The brethren, I am sure, will perceive the applicability of this passage to our present circumstances; indeed, nothing is more characteristic of Scripture than its way of taking account of human circumstances, especially circumstances causing grief among God's people. The Scriptures themselves afford comfort, for the "comfort of the scriptures" (Romans 15:4) is spoken of, and there is comfort at the present time in the passage I read; and help, too, as one hopes, particularly for those most affected. They are in our minds, knowing that they need comfort. The Scriptures will not fail in this respect, nor will the brethren fail. There will be comfort from the Scriptures and from the brethren. Indeed, the Spirit is here for comfort and to help us in our efforts to serve each other at such a time. We have the Lord above touched with the feelings of our infirmities, and the Spirit here who makes intercession with groanings that cannot be uttered. These are operative in the saints, and so this passage enters into the moment, and, in order that it should be qualified, other passages may be introduced.

Our brother has mentioned in prayer one that is appropriate at the moment: a mother bereaved by the death of an only child. It is a touching scripture involving one specially affected; it was the Shunammite mentioned in 2 Kings 4. She had the experience of being bereft of her only child, a son divinely given according to promise; and she knew what to do. That is what is in mind in reading this scripture, that we all might know how to take this solemn situation, and particularly those immediately

affected; that they should know how to take the sorrow. We are to be taught in these circumstances so as to know how to think and what to do. The Shunammite would go to the man of God. She knew where to go -- a most important matter. Our beloved brother and sister, the parents of this dear child who is now lying here dead, undoubtedly have already learned where to go, and have gone there; and as having gone, they will know how to be here at this moment. The Shunammite knew. She knew that all nature was to be barred, and so placed the child on Elisha's bed. She went to the man of God, and he understood there was deep concern in her heart. We can indeed be thankful for a man of God. Elisha is also a type of Christ, and He knows. He knows what is going on in the hearts of the bereaved. Elisha discerned that the Shunammite was deeply moved -- perhaps too deeply affected to make visible expression of it, for there is sorrow that is incapable of visible expression. We know how it applies to the Lord. He sorrowed alone on the cross, and thus He knows what sorrow is. He knows what bereavement is, too, and enters into it with the bereaved ones. So the prophet directs his servant to ask her, "Is it well with thee? is it well with thy husband? is it well with the child? And she said, It is well" (2 Kings 4:26). That is an answer that has to be studied. The Holy Spirit helps us to do this. The woman kept her thoughts on the man of God. So there is need for the bereaved ones here to keep their thoughts where they should be -- on our High Priest above. The Shunammite's thoughts were on Elisha. She had gone a long way for him and would have him go back with her. If the child was to be raised, he must be where he is.

In the passage read, it is a solemn fact that the child is not raised. The word 'dead' is mentioned about eight times, and not without purpose. In

other similar circumstances, we have the resurrection of the person involved. The child of the Shunammite was to be raised immediately. That was in the purpose of God. The daughter of Jairus was to be raised. The Lord went all the way to raise her at the urgent request of her father. The young man at the gate of Nain was raised. These instances are recorded, all culminating in the desired end; but not in David's case. So it is solemn, and I read it because it affords instruction, particularly for those directly affected. They need instruction, and they need comfort, and they need to know what to do, and maybe they need to change their attitude. Possibly many of us have not had this idea of change of attitude in such circumstances.

It is a question for us as to what really commands us at such a time -- how far nature has sway or how far the Spirit of God has sway, and so David, we are told, besought God for the child, Will he live? But he not only besought God for the child; he fasted and went in and lay all night upon the earth. "And the elders of his house arose, and went to him, to raise him up from the earth; but he would not, and he ate no bread with them" -- a suitable attitude in a most solemn time. He is a feeling man, and he had good reason to feel, and he felt rightly; his attitude was perfect. His lying on the earth was perfect while the child lived. "And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept; for I thought, Who knows? perhaps Jehovah will be gracious to me, that the child may live". He reasoned rightly, as a man of God would. He knew what to do, and he knew how to feel, and God honoured him. God took account of him. Heaven was looking on, as now, for these occasions are not simply to exercise men; they are occasions for heaven.

Heaven is looking on the bereaved -- the living. We are all of interest to heaven, but especially the

bereaved -- how they have been, how they are now, and how they are going to be in regard to all this. David is perfect up to this point in his attitude, and he explains his attitude. He says, "While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept; for I thought, Who knows? perhaps Jehovah will be gracious to me" -- not to the child, but to me. At least, that was the great thought, that the child should live. He knew what it involved to be deprived of the child, but he knew God. That is the point -- how far our knowledge of God will stand by us at such a time, for we are dealing with Him. So David says, "Who knows? perhaps Jehovah will be gracious to me, that the child may live". But later he says, "Now he is dead".

Now that is the solemn fact that always comes up in these cases, as it has come up even at this very moment. Our dear ones are taken away, and not only have they fallen asleep in Jesus, but we have as at this moment to say, She is dead; the child is dead. It is a solemn fact for the parents; it was a more solemn fact for David. The word 'dead' is used, as I said, many times in the passage. Is not the Spirit of God stressing it through this scripture -- the reality of death? But then there is no penalty. "Their angels in the heavens continually behold the face of my Father who is in the heavens" (Matthew 18:10). The Lord Jesus Himself furnishes us with this fact; so, as understanding it, we can leave her. It is well for the child, indeed. We can all say that without any question. It runs through the Scriptures. No doubt many of us can say it feelingly as to the loved ones of each of us who have fallen asleep, that it is well with them. Let us rest in it, therefore. So David says here, "But now he is dead". We have come to this solemn fact. There is going to be no resurrection now, no immediate relief in that sense. There was in relation to the daughter of Jairus; there was in relation to Lazarus -- there was peculiar

relief for his sisters; there was for the mother of the young man of Nain; there was in relation to the Shunammite's son. The prophet sends for the mother of the child and delivered to her her son, and she went away -- profoundly affected. But there is no such possibility now. Intelligence teaches us that resurrection must be awaited. There are to be more needed results, results in the parents and the grandparents, in all of us -- more important immediately than the actual resurrection of the dear child. Her time is coming.

The resurrection is a great future event, a certain future event. That is the hope of our hearts; that there is to be a resurrection of the dead. The Lord speaks of it: "But that the dead rise, even Moses shewed in the section of the bush, when he called the Lord the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob; but he is not God of the dead but of the living; for all live for him" (Luke 20:37,38). They are with God; they are in His keeping. As to their bodies, they are in Machpelah, so to speak. It is all a question of time as to that. The event is certain; and so David says here, "But now he is dead, why should I fast? Can I bring him back again?" Beautiful intelligence and beautiful resignation! It is a lesson for us all. We are to know how to feel and act at such a time, bringing God into it. So he goes on to say, "I shall go to him, but he will not return to me"; that is to say, the Spirit of God is telling us in this passage to face realities, the realities that are visible to us. David shows by his attitude that he was a victorious man as seen in this passage. It is said in verse 20, "Then David arose from the earth, and washed, and anointed himself, and changed his clothing, and entered into the house of Jehovah and worshipped". Is this not the desired result? Is this not the state we are to be in? Is it well with the child? Better for her than ever it could be here.

This is a terrible world in which to bring up children. Even for this reason we can say, It is well with the child. There may be circumstances, of course, that we have to leave with those who have to go through them, but it is well with the child. There is no thought of change at all with David; it is a fixed matter. Let us accept this, that what God does is done with accuracy, with purpose, and above all, with love behind it. It is done; it is a finished incident governed by divine love. We are all on the way, as the child was. She has gone to the end; not now to the resurrection. She is awaiting it as we are. However long it will be for her, it will be for us.

But David is not now weeping and mourning. Why should he, if things are well as according to the will of God? For it is a fixed matter with God that the child is not to return, and faith sees that it is a fixed matter -- "I shall go to him, but he will not return to me". That is the suitable attitude of mind. We must accept the fixedness of it, which is God's will; and so it is said, "he changed his apparel"; that is, he is not a mourner. Not that I am saying a word about the grief in the hearts of the parents -- not at all. But why should we deny God His rights? How do we wish to appear before God? If we put on mourning, it is not for God's eye. God is not looking for that. David, it is said, "changed his apparel". It had been perhaps mourning, but not now. It is a question of God now. These incidents occasion great history. They are great matters in the history of the persons immediately involved; great matters for all of us. They are education spiritually. We should all learn by them. "He changed his apparel". We are not going to make any show before men unnecessarily. There may be certain seemliness in mourning, but we have to think of God and what kind of garments He looks for, and what kind of garments are suitable for persons who accept His

will. David says, He will not come back to me, but I shall go to him. So he has to tread his way, and he resolves to do it, with God, with other apparel. He changed his apparel, "and entered into the house of Jehovah and worshipped". He is starting well after this great sorrow, this historical matter that has come down the ages.

It is not so much to tell us about the child and the antecedents, but the remarkableness in David, a great saint, in facing such a matter, and knowing what attitude to take up, and how to behave afterwards. He is going to be a worshipper of God. With the child, it is well. David is not going further into this matter. He says, I shall go to him; he is not coming back to me. He had many a sorrow in his house afterwards -- terrible ones followed -- but this was peculiarly poignant. In the meanwhile, David is not to be a mourner or useless in the service of God, but rather a worshipper, a priest as well as king. I believe his whole outlook was changed. The sorrow had been of immense importance in his history. He became a worshipper perhaps as he had never been before. He has an insight into the future, into the realm, too, of the living.

We have access to that through the precious death of the Lord. He said to one, "To-day shalt thou be with me in paradise". What a wonderful thing! Paul had a look into it. He does not tell us what he saw, but what he heard, which is more important. This is a hearing time, what God is saying; and as we take these things to heart our spiritual depth and outlook will be greatly enhanced.

ADVANTAGES OF COMING TOGETHER

Exodus 20:24; Isaiah 40:28 - 31; Isaiah 56:1 - 8

J.T. The advantages of coming together are in mind. Many other scriptures might be mentioned, but these will suffice to begin with as suggesting certain advantages in the saints coming together. There are promises involved. The first scripture read promises certain positive blessing. "In all places where I shall make my name to be remembered, I will come unto thee, and bless thee". The next scripture speaks of mounting up, and would allude to the prayer meeting; and Isaiah 56, too, affords a rich promise to those who attend the prayers for the saints in the house of prayer. You feel it needful to call attention to the gain of such occasions. Others might be attended, as has been remarked in the New Testament -- all the assembly gatherings, but these three have special promises. The first, where Jehovah makes His name to be remembered: "I will come unto thee, and bless thee". This scripture especially enters into the assembly service, in which we have the Lord's supper. There is a coming to us and blessing us; that is what the believer looks for. We are entitled to look for it. There is a promise attached to it, and God is always ready to fulfil his promises.

C.A.M. It speaks of burnt-offerings and peace-offerings. Do you consider a reading like this as a peace-offering?

J.T. I think these meetings take on that character. We are sons of peace professedly, and what we have and share together, God is pleased to join in and partake of. Divine Persons partake of what we have, and the Lord says, "Children, have ye anything to eat?" (John 21:5). This chapter is one of divine

rights. It is pre-eminently a chapter of divine rights, God's rights in His people and what we have; not a father like Job who was evidently content to be absent from the feasts of his children. God loves to be with us and share with us in what we have, so that we take Him into account in our assemblages.

R.W.S. This promise comes early in the book, does it not, in a section that is not fully developed? Why is that? I thought of Sinai, and we have not yet reached the tabernacle system. God is better known later on in the book, and yet he says, under these circumstances, "I will come to thee, and bless thee".

J.T. He made certain overtures carrying premiums in chapter 19:2 - 6: "And they ... encamped in the wilderness; and Israel encamped there before the mountain. And Moses went up to God, and Jehovah called to him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel: Ye have seen what I have done to the Egyptians, and how I have borne you on eagles' wings and brought you to myself. And now, if ye will hearken to my voice indeed and keep my covenant, then shall ye be my own possession out of all the peoples -- for all the earth is mine -- and ye shall be to me a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation". Indeed, this is the overture that God made, and the remaining part of chapter 19 is what the apostle alludes to in Hebrews as causing trembling and fear, as if God would, before He comes to chapter 20, give people to understand that He was God, and they were the people, and that He was to be feared. The chapter is all preliminary in view of what is in mind, the setting up of the tabernacle, in which everything would be requisite for their drawing near in type, but this proposal comes in in chapter 20, showing that God is severe and reminds us that He is God and we are His people, and we have to learn to

be reverent and to be subject, and yet He has thoughts and affections for us, but He wants us to be with Him in a subdued and appreciative way; so that at the end of chapter 19 it is to impress them with His greatness, what the flesh is in them, that it is to be held in check, so that it is said "Go down, testify to the people that they break not through to Jehovah to gaze, and many of them perish" (verse 21). That is the rude natural gaze that often comes into meetings, and it is irreverent. We have to learn to sit reverently when we are in the presence of God. And so it goes on, "And the priests also, who come near to Jehovah, shall hallow themselves, lest Jehovah break forth on them" (verse 22). Even the priests are in danger of severity in not being in a right state.

Well, that is what characterises the end of chapter 19 after God comes out. It says in verse 16, "And it came to pass on the third day, when it was morning, that there were thunders and lightnings and a heavy cloud on the mountain, and the sound of the trumpet exceeding loud; and the whole people that was in the camp trembled. And Moses brought the people out of the camp to meet with God; and they stood at the foot of the mountain. And the whole of mount Sinai smoked, because Jehovah descended on it in fire; and its smoke ascended as the smoke of a furnace; and the whole mountain shook greatly. And the sound of the trumpet increased and became exceeding loud" (verses 16 - 19). All this is to impress us now that we are having to do with God. "God is greatly to be feared in the council of the saints" (Psalm 89:7). It is not that His affections are not ever ready to show themselves, but He would impress us with the need of reverence, especially young people, that they are in the presence of God, not in fleshly feelings but reverential feelings. Chapter 20 follows. In chapter 19 it formally states His rights in ten words, making His demands on us. Then it is said

in verse 18: "And all the people saw the thunderings, and the flames, and the sound of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking; and when the people saw it, they trembled, and stood afar off, and said to Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear; but let not God speak with us, lest we die. And Moses said to the people, Fear not; for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before you, that ye sin not. And the people stood afar off, and Moses drew near to the obscurity where God was" (verses 18 - 21). All this is most salutary, because the flesh in Israel is the same as it is in us; and the flesh in us is the same as in them, and in our assemblies God is telling us that we need to be reverential. We are not in an ordinary meeting; we are to be subdued, and then He makes this promise, Wherever he causes His name to be remembered "I will come unto thee". It is not in the distance, or in the terrors of Sinai. He will come to us where His Name is remembered; that is, where He is held in reverential regard. He comes to us. He does not come to any company of Christians. He comes to persons who are in a certain state; those who remember Him and have affection for Him.

F.N.W. Is there a lesson in this matter of reverence in the opening part of the book where Moses sees the flame coming out of the bramble bush; perhaps a despised position in the locality, yet God would say the surroundings are holy ground?

J.T. That is the leading thought in the book. It really looks on to the wilderness position and the tabernacle in it; God is there in comparative outward littleness. He is there not to recognise the flesh, but deals with it unsparingly. Nevertheless God's discipline, no matter how severe it may be, does not destroy us. The bush was not consumed; the saints are not consumed. He has a way with us and keeps us alive in spite of the things He has to deal with,

but He will deal with flesh. "God is greatly to be feared in the council of the saints, and terrible for all that are round about him" (Psalm 89:7).

A.A.T. Why does the apostle in Hebrews 12 speak of the things that we have come to? That we have not come to mount Sinai.

J.T. That is the difference of the dispensation, but these chapters whilst you would view the contrast, they have to be used typically, too. God is here; they are not merely in contrast to Christianity. There are types of Christianity in this very section, and these types carry with them the thought of fear, that God requires to be feared and held in reverence. In that same chapter we are told He is a consuming fire, not simply was, but is, in Christianity. That is very solemn.

F.S.C. That comes in in Deuteronomy. It says there also our God is a consuming fire.

J.T. Just so; the flesh is flesh. He is just as severe on the flesh in us as He was on them. So that 1 Corinthians 11:30 brings that out: "On this account many among you are weak and infirm, and a good many are fallen asleep".

C.A.M. It is a remarkable thing that Naaman, after the change of man took place, had some sense of the holiness of God. He built an altar of earth immediately, did he not?

J.T. Yes; he brought the earth with him; as if the earth were sanctified by Elisha, showing that the saints' feet and persons affect the earth. God respects where they are.

A.R. What does it represent typically, this altar of earth?

J.T. It alludes to Christ's becoming man. There are two altars here. The first is the altar of earth, and the other is the altar of stone. The altar of earth is to be provided. It says in verse 25, "If thou make me an altar of stone", that is, if you are

able to do that. The first altar gives us a status with God, even if we have not a stone altar. We can go on religiously. That is, there is not very much; we apprehend the humanity of Christ and that we are of His order. That gives us a status with God, but the altar of stone is relatively greater. It is a question of what He is in resurrection, in an abiding condition. What is to be observed in this section is the need of the saints fearing God in the assembly, coming together as we are now.

A.B.P. The frequent reference to the Lord's pathway in taking part in the service of praise on Lord's day would be like the altar of earth.

J.T. Yes; it would be the beginning of our meeting. We come together; that is the very lowest ground, so to say; it is divine ground but relatively lower than the altar of stone. The first is what Christ is as man, and the second is what He is divinely in resurrection.

J.A.P. When you speak of the fear of God, what does that mean? In what sense do we fear God?

J.T. If you are giggling and laughing and talking with one another in the presence of God it is not fearing God. Sometimes young people do that; they forget they are in the presence of God. That is what chapter 19 means. In the beginning of that chapter He shows what beautiful thoughts He has about us. I will make you a nation of priests. A nation of priests will not do anything wrong in the assembly. They will be reverent. That was His thought for them. But in order to come to that, they have to learn how severe God is on the flesh, as we are together in assembly. Sin inside is far more serious than sin outside.

R.W.S. Because they already said in chapter 19:8, "All that Jehovah has spoken will we do". Is not God right in holding us to this committal?

J.T. Just so. It is on the principle of covenant.

He is teaching us how to become covenanters. He is a covenant God and He is looking for a covenant people; people who know how to keep a covenant and know how to behave themselves in the covenant. "Behold, ... I will consummate a new covenant".

G.V.D. We were considering last Lord's day in Westfield John 14. I was wondering whether the thought there of keeping the Lord's commandments, and then His coming to us, and the Father, would fit in with this chapter, which begins with the rights of God and God coming to us.

J.T. It does indeed. The passage begins with, "If ye love me, keep my commandments" (verse 15). That is the first command He speaks of in that section. "He that has my commandments and keeps them, he it is that loves me; but he that loves me shall be loved by my Father, and I will love him" (verse 21). All is on that line, so at the beginning of this chapter, God is intimating His thoughts, and they accept what He proposes. He says, I am entering into a covenant with you. Now it is a question of whether your behaviour is equal to Mine, because I am holy, and I am looking to you to be holy. The covenant extends that way.

F.S.C. Was Moses taught at the burning bush, when the voice says, "Loose thy sandals from off thy feet" (Exodus 3:5)?

J.T. That is the idea exactly. We have to learn to be reverential in the presence of God. When he saw that he turned aside to look at it, He called to him, Moses, Moses, as much as to say, You are an interesting person to me; you have a sense of reverence in your soul, and from then on it is one thing after another in the building up of what is of God in Moses' soul.

J.S. Did he get light in his soul when he saw it was not consumed?

J.T. Yes; he says, I will turn aside to see why

it is not consumed. This whole book is telling us that we have to learn to be reverent.

A.A.T. I suppose that is why when we come into the meeting-room, we take our hats off.

J.T. Quite so, and the sisters keep them on. That is required. It would be a shame for them to take them off.

Rem. Going back to the two altars, we see there is a difference in them; the altar of earth is connected with an offering and a sacrifice, but the altar of stone is different, is it not? "And if thou make me an altar of stone, thou shalt not build it of hewn stone; for if thou lift up thy sharp tool upon it, thou hast profaned it" (Exodus 20:25). All human activity is left out.

J.T. That is right. We are on higher ground. Stone is permanency. It alludes to the permanency of Christ now. Of course, He is always Man, but this stone is permanency.

W.W.M. Do you think the apostle had in mind what you are speaking of now, when he says, "Ye are temple of God"? That represents us as together. It would bring about a great sense of reverence.

J.T. Quite so, "... and the Spirit of God dwells in you? If any one corrupt the temple of God, him shall God destroy" (1 Corinthians 3:16,17). That is, anything that is contrary to the temple brought in. We must not forget it is in Christianity. That is not at mount Sinai, that is in Christianity, and God can destroy even now.

A.R. God says to Moses in chapter 19:10,11, "Go to the people, and hallow them today and tomorrow, and let them wash their clothes; and let them be ready for the third day; for on the third day Jehovah will come down before the eyes of all the people on mount Sinai". It would be the idea of a meeting, would it not?

J.T. Yes; that is the idea. Moses brought the

people out to meet God. That is just what it says. They were brought out to meet God, but our Moses brings us out to meet God on the first day of the week. The Lord has His supper. That is His matter, but it all has in mind our meeting God, and this chapter from that point on is to impress us with Him, so that even the priests are mentioned before we get the priestly order. We do not get the priestly order until we come to chapter 28, but the priests are mentioned here. They were even warned for even they may not be right, so it says in chapter 19:22, "And the priests also, who come near to Jehovah, shall hallow themselves, lest Jehovah break forth on them"; that is, we have the priestly place, but if we do not behave ourselves, then we may look for discipline. "On this account, many among you are weak and infirm, and a good many are fallen asleep" (1 Corinthians 11:30). The behaviour among us brings that about.

A.B.P. Would you explain the steps and the possibility of exposing the nakedness, what that may signify in priestly service?

J.T. This is a higher order, I think, of the service. It is progressive order. The altar of earth is on lower ground relatively. He says, "An altar of earth shalt thou make unto me, and shalt sacrifice on it thy burnt-offerings, and thy peace-offerings, thy sheep and thine oxen". It does not say what altar or what earth is to be used. It is just earth, pretty much what Adam was. That is what he was. That is what his name means, so that it is humanity that is in mind, and therefore there are not the same requirements, save the offerings are to be there. And moreover, in verse 24 there is no 'if'. It is imperative. If we are to be there before God at all, we must have an altar. But in verse 25 it says, "And if thou make me an altar of stone, thou shalt not build it of hewn stone; for if thou lift up thy

sharp tool upon it, thou hast profaned it". That would mean, I think, that human innovation is excluded, and we know how the worship of God throughout Christendom is largely human innovation, from the cathedrals up or down, it is all that, almost all that. That is what is in mind. God does not accept that, that is rejected. And if there are steps to it, that would mean you want to elevate yourself in that; so that they have a regular hierarchy and all that goes with the hierarchy. That is the gross evil that is alluded to here that is not acceptable to God. It is to be the simplicity of the Christ, as Paul says, in our assembling ourselves together. It is the Son of God we apprehend, so that before coming down from the mountain, it is said, Jesus alone with themselves. It is just that and no more.

A.B.P. In a sense does it link on with the original sin of Adam? One that lifted himself up in pride caused man to lift himself up, that they would be as gods knowing good and evil and exposed his nakedness in that sense.

J.T. Just so; it is the natural mind brought into it.

A.C. Is that why David says in Psalm 34, "Taste and see that Jehovah is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him! Fear Jehovah, ye his saints"; and then in verse 11, "Come, ye sons, hearken unto me: I will teach you the fear of Jehovah"? Is that the reverential side?

J.T. Quite so; that is a great lesson to remember; the innovations; the lifting up of a tool. "Thou shalt not build it of hewn stone; for if thou lift up thy sharp tool upon it, thou hast profaned it". I would say it is Christ and the saints as we are according to God; lifting up the tool is just human skill or man's device.

A.P.T. Would holiness be a further thought in regard to reverence?

J.T. It is quite evident you cannot get holiness without reverence. Reverence, you might say, is the first principle, in our coming together, as we are now or at any time. It is what is becoming publicly. It is quite obvious there can be no holiness without it. It leads on to holiness, I would think. You do not want to be different from God. This is covenanting here; the stress is on the covenant. We are dealing with a covenant God and He looks for a covenant people. We are not out of accord with Him.

C.A.M. It is remarkable that expression you were referring to, the simplicity as to Christ; that alludes to the beginning and Satan coming in, does it not? It is remarkable how it really goes back to the beginning, whether you think of the earth or whether you think of the spiritual matter.

J.T. "As the serpent deceived Eve by his craft, so your thoughts should be corrupted from simplicity as to the Christ" (2 Corinthians 11:3). Another thing that comes in in that section is measure. God is a God of measure, and we are to be measurers, too. Well, I thought it was just as well to call attention to these great facts in a personal way as to these meetings. They are increasing in number; special meetings, but as to all our meetings, of course. Then in connection with this matter of idolatry: "Ye have seen that I have spoken with you from the heavens. Ye shall not make beside me gods of silver, and ye shall not make to you gods of gold" (verses 22,23). All this is anticipating the evils of Christendom, and the evils of Judaism, too. It is to shut out idolatry.

J.S. It crept in when the disciples said, "Teacher, see what stones" (Mark 13:1) in connection with the temple.

J.T. They called His attention to the greatness of the stones. Of course, those stones were in their places, but that was divinely ordered under David and Solomon. These gods of silver and gods of gold -- they are two precious metals. The one is more

precious than the other, and the use of them might make idolatry more acceptable; they are the material used for making idols. So Isaiah by the Spirit ironically says, "He chooseth for himself among the trees of the forest: he planteth a pine, and the rain maketh it grow. And it shall be for a man to burn, and he taketh thereof, and warmeth himself; he kindleth it also, and baketh bread; he maketh also a god, and worshippeth it" (Isaiah 44:14,15). Well, that is absurd. It is simply outrageously irreverent and wicked, because he ought to see it; his own common senses ought to show him the folly of it. But gold -- well, that might be something that would represent God in a more exalted way than a common tree -- or silver. But that is what God is alluding to here; what Christianity has adopted in the way of finery. It is one of the great features of Rome, refinement in building, etc. used for the worship of God.

J.S. That crept in in regard of the temple; the Lord pronounced judgment upon it.

J.T. Still, I do not think the point was to condemn the material then, because He says it is My Father's house. He accepted that. It is what man devises that is in mind here.

C.A.M. Peter, in speaking of the service of praise and what God gets, shows how delivered he was from that. "Knowing that ye have been redeemed, not by corruptible things, as silver or gold" (1 Peter 1:18). If they had followed Peter they would be delivered from all that.

J.T. Yes; it is how the enemy deceives the human mind, as if these metals being so precious might make idolatry somewhat more acceptable.

R.W.S. Is that the attempt of the enemy now, to make gold hinder the service of God today; over-time work and Sunday work and things of that nature? Is that the same principle?

J.T. Well, it certainly borders on idolatry, because it is said, "covetousness which is idolatry" (Colossians 3:5). Where people are sacrificing their privileges for the sake of double wages and the like, it is very much like idolatry. Of course there are exceptions that cannot be avoided, but where money is simply the question, it is not too much to say it is just idolatry.

A.B.P. Would Rachel's failing to get to the end of the journey have any bearing on her love for the household idols?

J.T. That may be; quite so.

F.S.C. God used precaution at mount Sinai; He calls it mount Horeb in Deuteronomy 4:15,16. It says, "And take great heed to your souls (for ye saw no form on the day that Jehovah spoke to you in Horeb from the midst of the fire), lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image".

J.T. Yes; he stresses that; they saw no form. So the attractive side here is, "Where I shall make my name to be remembered, I will come unto thee, and bless thee", showing there would be no distance. Chapter 19 shows great distance; the people were not to go up; they were not to go beyond the barriers, but this passage contemplates nearness.

Ques. Do we get a circumscribed area here now, "All places where I shall make my name to be remembered"? Is that circumscribed?

J.T. I think not; I think it involves nearness, that is, where God makes His name to be remembered. It is no effort of yours. It is God's work in your soul. There is nothing to deter God at all under these circumstances, where he makes His name to be remembered. It is really akin to the Lord's supper, a divine memorial, so the Lord can come in amongst us without any hesitation.

Rem. You would allude, I suppose, to the assembly, would you?

J.T. Yes; I take this to be an allusion to the

Lord's supper, where His name is remembered. So He comes. It is so different from the distance in chapter 19, showing that we are progressing here. Well, in going through this book, we see in chapter 24 how the people are invited up to where God is, eating and drinking in His presence. There is no fear there at all because what He has in His mind is that we should be near to Him, a people near to Him.

A.R. You have been referring lately to the idea of promises connected with our meetings. Apparently there is a promise connected with this first meeting.

J.T. That is what I thought, the idea of the promises attaching to the assembly when we come together in assembly, the things that are promised to us, and God loves to fulfil His promises, and this is one; not only that He comes, but He blesses us under these circumstances.

J.S. Does chapter 19 show that He was the Mediator?

J.T. The need of the Mediator runs right through this book. The law is ordained through angels in the hand of a mediator. This chapter is the chapter of it.

A.R. At the end of Luke, His hands are lifted up in blessing. The idea here is He is coming down with His hands outstretched. Is that the idea?

J.T. Quite so. When the tabernacle is built, He came down and came into it. He calls out for His people to be near to Him. Leviticus is the answer to that.

A.A.T. Is the wording in Exodus 20, "I will come unto thee and bless thee", to the individual, or do you apply that to the company?

J.T. The bearing of it is collective. This is all collective instruction, because it all begins with their being there. Look at the beginning of chapter 19. It is said, "In the third month after the departure of the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt, the same day came they into the wilderness of Sinai:

they departed from Rephidim, and came into the wilderness of Sinai, and encamped in the wilderness; and Israel encamped there before the mountain". That is the whole company, and then Moses went up to God, and God spoke to him and told him what to tell them, and he came down to the people, and they said, "All that Jehovah has spoken will we do!" So it is a collective position. That is plain enough.

A.A.T. I used to read it as if it was an individual blessing, but I can see how great a thing it is, especially in regard to the Supper.

J.T. It is a collective blessing. When we come to the book of drawing near, that is, Leviticus, everything is to be done according to order. You have a priesthood and order, every requisite for offering so that you bring a sheep to be slain, and the priests use it and present it to God, and you are accepted, but it is all a collective idea. Each individual retains his individuality, but he is moving, and thinking, and feeling in relation to all Israel. Numbers is to bring out that we are apportioned in relation to one another, each tribe by itself and then every three tribes by themselves, and then the whole twelve tribes by themselves.

A.A.T. In the application of that to the New Testament and the Supper, is it not so that, in connection with the service of God, it is not so much what we get in the way of blessing but what we are able to give Him?

J.T. Both things are true. The promise is to us here, "I will come unto thee, and bless thee". That is an encouragement for us, but then on the other hand, we have these offerings, you see, both before and after verse 24, the altar of earth and the offerings; and then the stone altar also, so that God gets His portion. But what He is saying here is that He will bless you. It is a promise, and it is a great thing to have in mind, and be in a condition for it.

C.A.M. Is it safe to say that we could not be in the presence of God without some change coming over us? We would not be truly there and be the same afterwards.

J.T. Quite so; God is there to influence us and impress us. "I will come unto thee, and bless thee". That is an encouragement for us. We should count on that. He loves us to remind Him of the promises that He makes.

R.W.S. Is there a variety of blessing connected with each of the meetings on the assembly calendar? Is the blessing of the memorial different from the blessing of the prayer meeting?

J.T. I think it would be well to look at the prayer meeting. It is, you might say, a promise in the end of Isaiah 40. It is a chapter that speaks of God in His greatness, in His creation, and it says, "Dost thou not know, hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, Jehovah, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not nor tireth? There is no searching of his understanding. He giveth power to the faint; and to him that hath no might, he increaseth strength. Even the youths shall faint and shall tire". It is not natural, relying on natural strength "and the young men shall stumble and fall; but they that wait upon Jehovah shall renew their strength: they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not tire; they shall walk, and not faint" (verses 28 - 31). That is a fine promise. You go out of the prayer meetings stronger than when you came in. If you go to a dance or a football game, or the like, you will be tired out at the end; but not at the prayer meetings; it is the very reverse. You renew your strength and mount up. Is that not what you find?

R.W.S. It is often a test after the Lord's day and weekend meetings, it is very testing as to the prayer

meeting, because of being so tired. This scripture would cover that.

J.T. Yes; it is wash-day and other things on Monday interfere and people think nothing of staying at home. With many there is no idea of delinquence in staying at home on Monday. They think the Lord's supper is the day of the feast, and they stop there, but this one is quite as important, and especially in chapter 56 where we have a formal statement of the house of prayer; God's house of prayer, and what God is telling us now is that we will be less tired when we come home from the prayer meeting than when we went.

J.S. Is that what Christ can do?

J.T. Quite so; it is the presence of God, you know. The description is very beautiful. "They that wait upon Jehovah shall renew their strength: they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not tire; they shall walk, and not faint". That is a divine promise to every brother and sister, in view of the meeting for prayer.

T.M. In Acts 16 we have the prayer meeting in Lydia's house, a praise meeting in the jail and a reading meeting in the jailor's house.

J.T. Why do you say the prayer meeting was in Lydia's house? They did not have it there. The prayer meeting was in the prison. As they prayed they praised. And then the Bible reading was in the jailor's house. The preaching was in the jail, too.

A.B.P. Maybe our brother has in mind the prayer at the river bank.

J.T. But he did not say that. Lydia used to go there to that prayer meeting. That is another thing.

Ques. How would you apply the thought there: "they that wait upon Jehovah shall renew their strength"? How do you apply the waiting upon Jehovah?

J.T. That is the attitude we are in in our meetings

for prayer. You are just elevated to a priestly position and the fragrance of Christ, our great Priest above. We are linked up with heaven; we are in the presence of the whole divine system; heaven here on the earth.

A.A.T. I think many could say 'amen' to these remarks you are making and they are good, but what about the men who are at the camps and cannot come to the prayer meeting? Surely there is a promise for them.

J.T. There is indeed. God has promised to be a little sanctuary to them. "Yet will I be to them as a little sanctuary" (Ezekiel 11:16). That is a special matter where they are hindered. Take John the apostle at Patmos. He was in prison, and the Lord came to him.

A.A.T. I heard a very interesting case this last week of a young man who was very anxious to pray, and a radio was playing and the noise in the barracks was such that it was very difficult for him to pray. He sought a place and went off to the linen room and was quiet there. It turned out very happily in his case in the end because he was questioned as to why he was in there.

J.T. That is all very interesting. We have a young brother with us from one of the camps. How do you get on? Where do you pray?

R.H.S. I pray in my tent.

J.T. Do the men see you pray?

R.H.S. They see me every night.

J.T. It is really better if you can do it in spite of the radio; carry on with God. We hear a good deal of that and it is very encouraging. The Lord supports the young men carrying on their service of prayer to God in public.

R.W.S. Perhaps if we came to the prayer meetings more regularly the young men would come home from the camps sooner.

J.T. That is the idea. I think they are the pivot

of the whole position. How long is it going to be for them? God is listening to us about our young brethren.

A.P.T. Are they not doing that in Acts 12? They are praying and Peter came. Was not God in that, to bring him back?

J.T. Just so. That is when Peter was in prison and the doors were opened for him.

D.P. Why are the youth and young men not sustained here?

J.T. They just represent nature. "Even the youths shall faint and shall tire, and the young men shall stumble and fall". They are not priests at all; they are just representative of human strength. At a football game or the like they would get tired; working or walking they would get tired. The point here is that a praying people do not get tired; they get rested and run afterwards. "They shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not tire; they shall walk, and not faint". That is after the meeting is over, you might say. At least that goes through. The others are just natural persons. So it says, "And the Egyptians are men, and not God, and their horses flesh, and not spirit" (Isaiah 31:3).

F.S.C. Is it inferred that we become like God? The everlasting God does not faint or tire.

J.T. That is just the point here; that is what it says. "Dost thou not know, hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, Jehovah, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not nor tireth?" And again we have, "Behold, he that keepeth Israel will neither slumber nor sleep" (Psalm 121:4).

F.N.W. It says they shall stumble. Do you think God's ability to keep us without stumbling, according to Jude, depends upon our availability to Him in this way at the prayer meeting?

J.T. I am sure it does. I am sure there is no one here who is truly a priest in the meeting for

prayer that cannot verify this truth, that you are stronger afterwards than before.

R.W.S. Do you mean we reach God as rapidly as God drew us to Himself, because eagles' wings are mentioned here as well as in Exodus?

J.T. Yes; mounting up would mean, I suppose, we are getting nearer to the centre of the system, because the prayer meeting is part of the system. The system is centred in Christ in heaven, and we just get nearer to it.

Ques. Would you link up in any way the thought of divine dignity as set out in persons who pray?

J.T. It must be delightful to God to look upon us as we are in true priestly attire in the meeting for prayer, as each brother stands up before Him and the others join in in Spirit. It is pleasing to God in the centre of the system. There is the fragrance of Christ attending to it.

A.P.T. Is it not a greater thought really than the earthly altar? It is the golden altar.

J.T. Quite so; the prayer meeting is the golden altar.

J.S. Do we stand up assembly-wise?

J.T. Quite so; we stand up in relation to one another. It is really that, only we are in a priestly attitude.

A.B.P. Does John 8 show this working out in the life of the Lord Jesus? In the end of chapter 7, they all went to their own homes, but Jesus went to the mount of Olives, and early in the morning He was in the temple teaching the people.

J.T. Just so. It would show the priestly energy that was there.

A.R. The last scripture you read refers to making "them joyful in my house of prayer". Is that how you are affected as the meeting is proceeding?

J.T. That is another side. We often allude to it in our prayer meetings. It reads, the alien and the

eunuch, they are people who have little or no earthly or natural prospects, "For thus saith Jehovah: Unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and hold fast to my covenant, even unto them will I give in my house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and daughters; I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off. Also the sons of the alien, that join themselves to Jehovah, to minister unto him and to love the name of Jehovah, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from profaning it, and holdeth fast to my covenant; even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer; their burnt-offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar: for my house shall be called a house of prayer for all the peoples". This passage, I think, brings us to the full height of the position in God's house. He says "my house" the universal bearing of it. Can we afford to miss that? We certainly cannot, because that is all we have come to in the meeting for prayer.

Ques. Why do you think chapter 56 begins with the thought of keeping judgment and doing righteousness?

J.T. It is the beginning with us, what you are in a practical way. The idea of the prayer meeting rises from the son of the alien, what he comes into.

Rem. The thought of judgment is mentioned much in the assembly gospel, Matthew.

J.T. Yes, and righteousness, too.

C.A.M. I was thinking of this matter of the alien. I suppose Luke was a Gentile, and we know how full of prayer his gospel is. It ends with it.

J.T. Very good, quite so.

J.H. Peter and John moved up towards the prayer meeting full of joy, did they not?

J.T. Quite so; it was the hour of prayer.

A.B.P. What bearing does the thought of having no earthly outlook have in relation to prayer? It would not be prayer for ourselves, would it? It would be having God's interests at heart.

J.T. I think that is how we finish here, when God calls it "my house". "For my house shall be called a house of prayer for all the peoples". That is what we finish with. So that it seems as if you are brought into the current of God's mind, how universal His house is. Your own things, you might say, gradually slip away from you altogether. It is God.

A.B.P. It would link on then, would it, with the idea of widowhood? The widow in the house cast in all her living. Certainly her living was not much of a worry to her. She would be something like a eunuch.

J.A.P. In Revelation 8, is it right to say that God caused the angel to add the incense to the prayers of the saints, as if He were pleased with them?

J.T. That is an angel priest; it is Christ Himself. But notice, all the saints are in mind -- the prayers of all saints, showing how wide it is. So here, "my house shall be called a house of prayer for all the peoples". I think we gradually come into the divine current in the prayer meeting, and we see what God's interests are, how wide they are.

A.R. Would this go beyond "all saints"? It says, "All the peoples". I was thinking of the scripture that says, "I exhort therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, thanksgivings be made for all men; for kings and all that are in dignity" (1 Timothy 2:1,2). Is that the idea?

J.T. That is exactly what it is, culminating in Paul's ministry in 1 Timothy.

F.N.W. You have stressed a good deal lately as to the matter of joy. Would this chapter have a certain moral sequence?

J.T. I think God is showing what is available in

the prayer meeting; how orderly it is; beginning with righteousness, and then bringing in two kinds of people, the alien and the eunuch. They are naturally at a disadvantage, but all their disadvantages vanish in the house of God. They come in for everything the heart could wish for. They get into the current of God's thoughts, and what a domain He has.

J.S. In John 9 do we have one of the outcasts of Israel?

J.T. Just so; he gets a place in the house.

F.N.W. Would it flow from the keeping of the Sabbath which would link with Exodus 20 and the loving of the Name of Jehovah in Exodus 21?

J.T. The keeping of the Sabbath has to be understood here. It is connected both with the eunuch and the alien. I suppose the thought is of covenanting. The Sabbath is the sign of it. For us it would be whatever God has covenanted with us, and whatever we are brought into in a sense of covenant, that we have the sign of it. That is keeping the Sabbath, whatever it denotes, that we are in direct relation with God and He is in direct relation with us.

A.R. These stated meetings enter into that. In the millennium heaven will affect the earth publicly on the principle of rule in a moral sense. It affects the earth now by prayer just as much.

J.T. I am sure it is a determining factor, and what the persons are that are involved. We are praying for those brethren who are suffering from these circumstances. There is no question about it, they are sufferers. The very best circumstances that any one of them are in does not preclude the idea of suffering as a Christian. I believe that is the pivot of the whole position. The more we keep that before God in our prayers, the quicker will be the end.

D.P. Is the house of God a wider thought than the assembly?

J.T. I do not think so. The word is, "In order that thou mayest know how one ought to conduct oneself in God's house, which is the assembly of the living God, the pillar and base of the truth" (1 Timothy 3:15). They are co-extensive, I would say; the house of God and the assembly of God. Did you have anything especially in your mind?

D.P. No; I just wondered about it.

J.T. The kingdom is a wider thought than the house, or the assembly, because it is simply a question of profession. Persons may be in it that have not the Spirit, but no one may be in the house of God without the Spirit. So that Peter says, "For the time of having the judgment begin from the house of God is come; but if first from us, what shall be the end of those who obey not the glad tidings of God?" (1 Peter 4:17). The 'us' means real Christians.

R.W.S. The Lord in Luke 18:1 spoke a parable, "to them to the purport that they should always pray and not faint". Is that not an encouraging scripture today? In view of protracted things we are to go on praying and not lose heart as if God is not hearing it.

J.T. As has been remarked, no doubt he was a Gentile; it is generally understood that he was, and so an alien, but see what a place he has in this instruction of prayer. It is he that tells us that the disciples asked the Lord to teach them to pray, and the Lord answered them immediately and said, "When ye pray, say, Father" (Luke 11:2).

J.H. Would you say Peter would say 'Amen' after the experience in Acts 10, when he saw the sheet come down? I think he would say 'Amen' to the alien praying in the house of prayer.

J.T. The sheet represented the alien. We are told in Ephesians 2:12 just what we are; "aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise" (Ephesians 2:12).

F.S.C. It says, the sons of aliens. Why does it say it that way?

J.T. It would not make any difference to the real meaning. Their fathers may not have added to their welcome; the generation would not add to their welcome. It is what grace makes an alien such as Ephesians contemplates. Ephesians tells us so much about our having been aliens. We are brought into the very greatest things in Ephesians.

J.A.P. Does Deuteronomy 26:5 fit in with that thought? "A perishing Aramaean was my father".

J.T. Just so; he was an alien in that sense, but brought into the nearness to God in grace.

C.A.M. Referring to what you said about the house of God in that section of Luke 11 speaking about prayer, the section does not end really until you have the Spirit. Do you think that really that would be the normal status of one that prayed? He would really reach that through desire. They would have the Spirit.

J.T. I think so; it is the great finishing touch of the furnishings that are depicted in that passage in the first ten verses. "How much rather shall the Father who is of heaven give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him" (Luke 11:13). The Lord is implying that the whole point in prayer requires the Spirit. It is not simply that you have a right formula, but you must have the Spirit; that is the meaning of the passage. And then the next thing you get is the man that was dumb. What could he do? Well, the Lord was casting him out. The thing is to pray that we might get the Holy Spirit, as much as to say if there is a dumb brother the thing is to pray that he might get the Holy Spirit. If a man does not pray habitually in the prayer meeting, you wonder if he has the Holy Spirit, else how could he refrain?

KEEPING SPIRITUAL THINGS

Luke 2:19,51; Genesis 37:11; 2 Timothy 1:14

These scriptures are intimately related, so that I hope I shall not find any difficulty in linking them in the ministry of the truth. They speak of things being kept -- spiritual things. The basis is laid in them, I think, for the existence of Christianity without the written page. In eternity, we shall not be referring to the written page. Whatever there will be, it will not be kept in storehouses but in the intelligences and affections of persons, and this fact obviously suggests great richness in that day, and great variety and great freshness. It is difficult to place ourselves in a timeless state of things, because we are accustomed to time. We could hardly think save as in time, but God would help us to participate in a limitless state of things, and that we should be accustomed to variety -- never idle or disinterested; never, as it were, looking out of the window. And these scriptures lay the basis for power to keep things -- things that are worth keeping. The first three scriptures read speak of things directly connected with the Lord Jesus: first, in His babehood; the second, in His boyhood and the third, in His young manhood. They involve, therefore, grounding in the knowledge of Christ; that we acquire a knowledge of Him that remains with us. Much indeed, is forgotten, one knows, even of the best things, but the Scriptures would suggest, especially in these passages, the need of discrimination in what comes to us, and to hold certain features, as Mary would keep certain things in her mind; the word 'mind' being suggestive of the place where these things are kept in the organism of a person. And then you ponder them in the heart,

the heart being suggestive of a remarkable combination of other elements in the make-up of a being. It is in the midst, as we might say, the midst of the person; and it is fed by other features (speaking of it now as in a moral sense, though the same is true in a physical sense) so that the understanding is connected with it, and the affections sometimes chiefly connected with it. And so we can understand how Mary the mother of our Lord enters into the Scriptures in this connection -- a woman of outstanding distinction, but the distinction I am seeking to bring forward is not such as is formally accorded to her. It is what she herself takes on. She is the author of it in herself, which is an important matter, for we are chiefly looking for favours and advantages through others; whereas we have great power of according advantage each of us to himself. And this is what develops in connection with Mary, the mother of our Lord. She is distinguished above women, as we all know, and she is a woman of introspective power, which every Christian should be, having the power of introspection. She says, "My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit has rejoiced in God my Saviour" (Luke 1:47). She distinguished between her soul and her spirit. Perhaps few of us have attempted to do this. It is important to distinguish introspectively so that we may discover what we are capable of, what are the departments, as it were. The ego is the head of each department and co-ordinates them, but it is important to learn the departments and the avenues to them, and not to go into the wrong one at any time, nor to operate in it.

So first of all we have in Mary, the mother of our Lord, a representative of a Christian who has very tender affections at this time -- very tender; her Babe was just born. Her first babe, the Babe of babes, the Lord of glory. She was not oblivious to all this, either. One of the most important dignitaries

in heaven had told her about the Babe -- Gabriel, a very sympathetic man, a priestly angel, really. We are not wanting in such a Person, dear brethren. The Lord of glory Himself is our priestly Angel; indeed, He is spoken of as an Angel in Scripture, as a Priest. And He is especially sympathetic with us, especially young mothers, and Mary was a young mother, and she was the mother of a great Child: "the holy thing also which shall be born shall be called Son of God" (verse 35). That was told her, so that she may be taken as one who would always be sympathetic with young mothers. Of course, she became a mother in Israel. It would take more than one child to make her that, and she had a good many children; but I am speaking now of the Lord Jesus, and He was her first-born, and her affections are all young. In the midst of much that was going on, for it is a chapter of activity, first of all the political world was in great activity and all was in relation to her and her husband and above all her Child that was to be born. The whole Roman world was set in motion for that, that the Child should be born in Bethlehem; and then heaven is aglow about this matter. Shepherds were occupied with their sheep probably, all tender work, livestock, sheep, by night, and the angel of the Lord is there by them. We are not told who he was, but the glory of the Lord shone round about them. That is the religious political world was changed into a sanctuary, as we might say, such is the life of faith. And the angel unfolds the great fact to the shepherds, and presently a multitude of the heavenly host was with them; not their own host, the Jewish host, but the heavenly one. Heaven came down in volume, so to speak, so as to make itself felt as to what heaven really is when there is something going on that interests heaven, and they were saying certain things, no doubt, in language intelligible to the shepherds --

"glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good pleasure in men" (Luke 2:14), pointing out great things for the world, great things on the earth. Well, the heavenly host returned to its place, and the shepherds went to Bethlehem and related what had happened, and Mary, we are told, kept these things in her mind -- pondered them in her heart. For she had a mind, and she knew she had a mind, and she knew what it was for -- to hold things that are valuable as treasure, and then to take them out to ponder them as opportunity offers. It is quite right to take a Bible and read a passage such as I am reading now, Luke 2, but it is another thing and really a greater thing morally to take the thing out of your own heart. It is there as a repository of your own, and you take it out and think over it. It is a remarkable matter; a matter to be noticed; that is to say, babehood; the babehood of the Lord Jesus and the things that attached to it. What movements there were in relation to it; heavenly movements particularly! What sayings there were! Who was absorbing them? The shepherds did anyway, although perhaps with a certain intelligence different from hers as men, and as shepherds, yet they could hardly be expected to have the same tender affections as the affections of a mother. That is what Mary had. Even Joseph could not have what she had, nor could any of the apostles have what she had; not an angel could have what she had. There is no one who could have what she had but herself, but she had it, and she knew she had it, and she placed it in the safest repository -- within her, and she could take it out and go over it. What thoughts arose in her mind! She could distinguish between her soul and her spirit, as she does in her song. She would distinguish between her heart, too, and her soul, as I said. The soul is the lower affections; it is not an organ; it is a moral element. No doctor can discover

the soul with his instruments. He can get the heart. Nor can he get to the mind. Man is a spiritual and moral being, so that she could take these wonderful things that she had there in her mind, in her repository, at any time and go over them. How that would enhance her spiritual growth, as she went over them!

Well now, that is number one. It ought to appeal to all young mothers here, young persons; for God is taking account of us in all our relations. He works in us, too, in relation to our respective ages, so that nothing should be left out in our calculations. As it says, "Run, speak to this young man" (Zechariah 2:4). Not 'this man' but "this young man", so it is that we are taken account of in our circumstances in that way, in our ages; the ages of our growth. So this is number one; the Lord Jesus Himself as a Babe. He is the subject of the things that Mary kept in her heart and pondered. She is seen in the first chapter of Acts according to this. The link is that she is there in the upper room. There is nothing said about what she said or what she was to do, but she was there, and every spiritual mind would say, I understand why she is there and I will value that. What conversations could be carried on with her by any of the apostles, especially by John! I have no doubt that John would always take her into the upper room. She was his mother. The Lord had dignified him by giving him such a mother, and Mary would value, too, the place that John had in the Lord's heart. He was the disciple whom Jesus loved. She could compare her love with his love, and it is well to compare loves. She would compare her love to his love for Christ, and she could compare, too, what she realised of the love of Christ with what John realised of the love of Christ. That would be a link, the great permanent link and will be the link between them for ever and for ever. They will not be in

eternity as mother and son, but they were down here in the making-time.

Well, number two is still Mary, but now she has just been through an experience in which she did not shine. We are up and down, the most spiritual of us. It is still Christ; it is still her Son, but now it is the Boy, Jesus. She had gone a day's journey with her husband back home to Nazareth. They did not know the Lord Jesus was not in the company. Many are like that. They do not miss spiritual things; staying at home from the meetings is nothing at all. The meeting is in the category of my activities but I may not miss it. I may not value it, and therefore, I may not miss it. They did not know the Lord was not with them, dear as He was to her, precious as He ought to be to her. She took no attention as to whether He was in the company or not for a whole day, neither did Joseph. And so what ensues is the boyhood life of Jesus, which ought to be supremely interesting to her; to see her Son develop and grow as Hannah of old. She came to where Samuel was with a little coat every year. Mary just overlooked this, and she went along and talked to the neighbours. Who knows what she was saying? When Jesus is left out we are apt to say things that are not too good. We are out of the realm of safety in our minds when we overlook the Lord, leave Him out of our calculations. There is a great deal of very useless talk where the Lord and the meetings are overlooked and missed, and where the things that are said in them are not attended to. But she came back, she and her husband, and the boyhood life of Jesus is proceeding. It was active, "The boy Jesus" He is called. There was a meeting of doctors in the temple and He was there. That is where they found Him. What an example for all young people, to be where divine instruction is being dealt out and spoken of! The doctors are persons

who know, I mean, in the principle of the thing. He was both hearing and asking questions. He was not out in the edge of the company; He was sitting in the midst of the doctors. That illustrates His boyhood life. And Mary -- well, she was full of superiority of a mother who had such a Son, but she has forgotten that she had neglected Him. We will never get right about a thing until we own it to someone, certainly we must challenge our own consciences about it before we can get right, before we have power to deal with matters. "Thy father and I have sought thee distressed", she says to Him. Think of her saying that to Him in the presence of the doctors in the temple -- the Lord of glory, no less. Let us never leave that out of our souls or hearts -- His Person is unchangeable, mysterious, of course, in a Babe or a Boy, that it should be there, but it is there. "Thy father and I have sought thee distressed". That was a reproof. Think of reproving the Lord! Martha did that, too. We are apt to do it. The Lord Jesus says to His mother, "Did ye not know that I ought to be occupied in my Father's business?" You and my father, that is the 'ye'. In fact, she is not called Mary here, it is the mother; that is the person who had a long acquaintance with Him in a motherly capacity, but she had failed on that point. It is the mother here in this part of the passage, "Did ye not know that I ought to be". It is no question of my fancy or my joy, but "I ought to be occupied in my Father's business". He rebuked her in the most beautiful way. Well, that is number two, so it is a question of gathering up something in spite of my failure. She did not fail in this, to pick up something out of the incident; it is a sort of salvage. It is said of her in verse 51, "And his mother kept all these things in her heart". She kept them all. She would not have kept her own saying surely. She would be ashamed of them for ever, that she rebuked

the Lord; but all the things that Jesus said, that is the point. She kept them in her heart. The boyhood of Jesus, it is part of her life, part of the food, part of the meat-offering. It is most holy. And that is really what she kept. That is what it was; it was a meat-offering -- what He was in His boyhood. She had the babehood state already and now she has His boyhood, so after all, she has not lost. "If our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart and knows all things" (1 John 3:20). Her heart would have condemned her for rebuking her Son, but God was greater than her heart and knoweth all things. So that she had these things in her heart, but she was not overcome with her failure. It is a question of how quickly we can recover ourselves, and that is what she represents when she becomes still the constructive repository of things relating to the Lord Jesus. It is a building up of things in her heart. "Keep thy heart more than anything that is guarded" (Proverbs 4:23). She was keeping it in spite of the breakdown in the temple. Probably she showed a little temper in what she said to him, quite possible. But she changed. She is still what she was really; she is treasuring things relating to Christ here in His boyhood.

Well, now, going to Genesis, the Lord is here typically at seventeen years of age, which I would say is a little above boyhood. He is getting into young manhood, and he is in a very mixed state of things externally. He is keeping sheep with his brothers. Some of them were naughty brothers. They were sons of the maidservants. Young schoolboys are apt to be very naughty in their remarks, learning them from others, and these young fellows were like that; and Joseph, we are told, reported to his father what they were saying. It says, "And Joseph brought to his father an evil report of them" (chapter 37:2). So it is for young brothers, I am calling on

young brothers potentially even if you are not actually yet -- to see to it that you are not picking up bad language at school or on the streets. This is no mere empty exhortation. It is a real matter with young boys and girls of Christian parents. You are said to be holy. The Lord Jesus is said to have been holy as born, intrinsically holy -- "that holy thing" (Luke 1:35). He is substantially holy, but you as born of Christian parents are said to be holy, too; not substantially holy. You need new birth for that -- to be converted and receive the Holy Spirit, but still you are here as holy, and it is important to see that our mouths are not made filthy by things we gather up and use. Joseph had to do with that in young brothers, and he told his father about it. It is a very safe-guarding thing to tell your father of anything you hear of that kind especially if your own brothers are guilty. It is a safeguard. That is what Joseph did, and we are told his father loved him. So that he has got a heart for Christ. Jacob had a heart for Christ. He had a heart for Rachel. He loved Rachel, but he loved Joseph and he made him a coat of many colours, a vest it is -- the word 'vest' would indicate it is an inner garment and allude to the glories of Christ. The deeper you go in the knowledge of him, the more the glories. But then I must go on to bring out the situation. Jacob found himself capable of keeping something that was of value, that as it were, he salvaged from all this, in the midst of envy. The brothers envied Joseph, a type of the Lord, but his father rebuked him. Jacob was not quite right, just as Mary was not quite right in the way she spoke to the Lord; so Jacob was not quite right here. He rebuked him. He said, "Shall we indeed come, I and thy mother and thy brethren, to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?" (verse 10). Well, that is the fact; it is the inference; take it as you like. But he did take it. How long he kept it in the repository,

he would take it out and see that was the truth of God, and that the prophet Joseph had unfolded things, a parable I might call it, in his dream. It was a dream, "I have dreamt another dream, and behold, the sun, and the moon and eleven stars bowed down to me" (verse 9). He counted eleven and left himself out. He was one of them, but the eleven bowed down to him. That was prophetic of the glory of Christ. Some day Jacob will heartily enjoy that when he understands how his son was a type of the great and glorious Saviour we all love and revere as "God over all, blessed for ever". It is a dream about the firmament, but the other dream was about the earth -- the dream about the sheaves. I am only referring to all these things which are a group of things together, but it is to focus our minds on this old brother. He is not so old yet, but he is fairly old. He is wrongly rebuking his son, but at the same time, he has got the power of recovery. God takes account of that. When you do something out of accord with right feeling, recover yourself quickly. Do not let it stand. Deal with it at once, and you are saved from it. He dealt at once with the matter of rebuking his son; he kept the saying. It is a question of Christ and His young manhood, the Lord Jesus. We have nothing about Him until he was thirty, in Luke, after this incident that I read of in chapter 2, but we have a great deal about Joseph before he became great, and that is really excess. The Old Testament fills out what is really excess in the New Testament, and what things are seen in Joseph between seventeen and thirty! He was thirty when he stood before Pharaoh. He is now seventeen years old and preserved. What virtue was in the young man! What glory shone -- typical glory! I am speaking of that. I am speaking of Christ; what the Lord was in the years from His boyhood until He was a Man of thirty. The eye of

heaven was upon Him undoubtedly, and so it is that we get in Joseph what we do not get in Luke. We can fill up the years, with the young man, as I might say, the young man of Genesis. That is what I consider Joseph to be. He is the young man of Genesis. Genesis is a book of old men; it is characterised by old men, but he is the young man; not simply a young man of Genesis, but the young man. His father came to see him. The point I am making, dear brethren, is to get ourselves right when we are wrong, especially as regarding the traits of Christ in one another. Get right about them at once. That is what I am seeking to show. Jacob got right; nevertheless he observed the saying. He kept it really; that is the word. He kept the saying, so that Christ is seen in Joseph; the young man Joseph is kept. This wonderful saying is kept, this wonderful dream about the sun and the moon and the stars -- heaven brought down into the scope of his father and mother and eleven brothers -- thirteen. They would bow down to him. Let us learn to bow down! It is a fine lesson to learn, to accustom ourselves to bow down to One who is superior, divinely superior. The Lord Jesus is God. "For he is thy Lord, and worship thou him" (Psalm 45:11). Jacob would learn that.

Well now, to sum up we shall come to Timothy. The writer is now an old man, and he is saying in effect there are precious things to be kept in the heart. The Lord is going to take him and these precious things are to remain here. They are not to be taken away with Paul. "And the things thou hast heard of me in the presence of many witnesses, these entrust to faithful men, such as shall be competent to instruct others also" (2 Timothy 2:2). That is the idea, so that Timothy is to be left here, a young man. His teacher is going to be taken away from him. It reminds us of Elijah, the teacher of Elisha

at the banks of the Jordan. What a scene it was! His master was to be taken away from him that very day, and he says, I know it. Whatever the sons of the prophets might say and think they knew better, they did not know better. They did not know as well as a man like Elisha. Elijah was to be taken up. This epistle contemplates Paul about to be taken up, as it were, from Timothy. What is Timothy to do with the ministry? Well, he says, I have it all written down. Maybe he did. There were books, but Paul was not content with the books. He does speak in this very epistle about a library. The books, he says; the parchments; bring them to me. He wanted to have those books, but he does not say anything about that in this chapter. He says to Timothy, "Keep, by the Holy Spirit ... the good deposit entrusted". Now I left out two or three words: "which dwells in us". If Paul is going, the Holy Spirit is remaining, and He is actually remaining in a dwelling place, and Timothy was that dwelling place. What a wonderful thing that is! The books may be burned, but the author of the books, the Holy Spirit, is not only a visitor, in Timothy, He is a dweller. That means He has conditions of dwelling. The Spirit will dwell as we give Him conditions, but He is there in all His capacity to function. So the apostle implies that the things you have -- you have got maybe through me or others -- are not to be discarded at all. They are to be retained. You have them, but the point is how (and it would apply to Jacob as it would to Mary). Ultimately all Mary had, if it were to be kept, it must be by the Spirit. The Spirit alone would enable her to keep undamaged the precious things she had in her soul, in her heart and her mind relative to the Lord Jesus. It is the Holy Spirit. "Keep, by the Holy Spirit which dwells in us, the good deposit entrusted". That is how that matter is to stand as far as I see it, in the present

upheaval; how things are to be kept. The bookcases are certainly not reliable. They can never be anything but aids; that is, what supports is what you have got in your own soul, what the Spirit gives. Anything beyond that may be useless, or worse, if you rely on what you read; whereas it is the good deposit that is to be kept, not by the books but by the Spirit; that it has a dwelling place in the heart. It is really one of the most wonderful things that Paul could say to any servant that He dwells in us. But we are to keep by Him the good deposit. What we have got of the knowledge of God and Christ and the Spirit Himself and the assembly and the whole range of truth is to be kept not simply in the books but by the Spirit in our own souls. All the inwards are brought into action and always functioning so that there is freshness and power in our persons. May God bless these thoughts!

THE INFLUENCE OF HEAVEN -- READING 1

Luke 2:8 - 15; Luke 3:21,22

The thought of heaven is prominent in Luke. The time of the Lord's receiving up is mentioned in chapter 9 of this gospel, and in the last chapter He goes up speedily, no mention being made of His forty days of sojourn after He arose, as if the position in heaven was urgent, that it should be reached. The word 'suddenly' is used in chapter 2 and also chapter 24:4, "two men suddenly stood by them in shining raiment". With this thought in mind we might get help, for the time of our ascending is drawing near, so that we should be ready for it.

Malachi is urgent, too, in the way he presents the Lord as arising with healing in His wings (chapter 4:2); there is a further suggestion of readiness in verses 5 and 6, "Behold, I send unto you Elijah the prophet, before the coming of the great and terrible day of Jehovah. And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers". Elijah's ministry takes family relations into account. In our time, not only are the children out of order, but the parents, too. So there seems to be a correspondence there and a link with Luke; Elijah being mentioned in chapter 1.

A great heavenly personage comes in, Gabriel who has to do with Zacharias and Elizabeth, and then Mary; then the verses read bring in heaven in volume. The heavenly seed takes precedence in the earth, although full provision is made for the earth. "On the earth peace, good pleasure in men"; then in chapter 19:38 it is "peace in heaven", earth is left where it was because of what the Lord found there,

and the heavenly thing is introduced in what we have now in the assembly. Gabriel is a priestly angel and points to great times, heavenly times in view, having great interest in the saints, to do the best for us.

The book of Acts is to stress faith; the disciples were gazing on heaven literally, it was a question of sight with them, they had seen the Lord going up; but a cloud receives Him. The literal stops for the moment -- it is faith henceforth; that is, the dispensation of faith was then inaugurated. Of course, the Lord while He was here stressed faith, but the era had not been properly inaugurated until He was out of sight. Thomas would have the natural convinced; the Lord convinces the natural, but said, "Blessed they who have not seen and have believed" (John 20:29). Blessing is attached to it.

The 'fear nots' in Luke make an interesting subject. There are occasions of fear, but there are occasions of not fearing, and this is one -- Luke 2:10. Heaven is so favourable; the shepherds represent people who are doing their duty, they are occupied with livestock, with what is living; so that heaven comes to them with these words, "And the angel said to them, Fear not, for, behold, I announce to you glad tidings of great joy, which shall be to all the people; for today a Saviour has been born to you in David's city, who is Christ the Lord". These men are greatly honoured; they receive a direct announcement of the gospel. In this whole section down to verse 20 they are doing their part, which is in keeping with Luke -- "praising God". There was united action, there was one flock. "Abiding without" suggests unselfishness. These occasions are evidences of sacrifice, because obstacles arise to hinder these meetings; the enemy disagrees with them because they are helping the saints. With gasoline and food restrictions the tendency is to give up coming together, but faith wants to go on. God is with us if we want

to go on. Difficulties are there, but we pray about the difficulties. "I am with you" says the Lord in Haggai 1:13. Satan threatens and does get victories, but they are due to our negligence. The point is to go on, suffer and go on, because the enemy will stop us if he can, and if he does we say the Lord has ordered it -- but the Lord may say, You are not praying.

"The shepherds said to one another, Let us make our way then now as far as Bethlehem, and let us see this thing that is come to pass, which the Lord has made known to us". They want to see, they are progressive, and Mary comes in, too, as progressive, so that we have a repository of the truth in this section. All fear being banished from their hearts, you can see they are made praisers -- praisers of God; glorifying and praising God, just as in the end of the gospel it says the disciples were continually in the temple praising and blessing God. That is the line in Luke.

Glory is the effulgence of something -- look at Hebrews 1. It is said of the Lord that He is the effulgence; that is, the glory of Deity ... and the expression of His substance. Effulgence (look at note) is that which fully presents the glory which is in something else. 'Expression' is akin to it but not quite the same, it goes deeper because it refers to this sub-stratum of Deity -- Christ expressed that. Effulgence of glory -- it was a question of the glory of Deity in a vessel. The glory is in something else; it is great enough to shine in Him. It is not military glory, or creational glory; it has something to do with redemption, in the servant, the Christ, the Lord.

The babe wrapped in swaddling clothes is a sign, it is very touching, it is God's way. He begins small but the greatness is there, it is hidden. Swaddling clothes are the right kind of clothing, and He is in a manger, which is not what He should have had, but it is God's way to His beginning and it is no accident.

There was no room in the inn, it does not seem as though there was antipathy, but God comes in and accepts things as they are. His life was not jeopardised by the manger. When He is baptised He will have other clothes on, when He comes out of the water He will have different clothes on, everything is suitable. Everything is in perfect order in Luke. He came in in a manger, but presently He will come in as a warrior.

You begin to be an attendant; there were eye witnesses and attendants on the Word. You say, I would like to do something for that Babe. I would like to give Him the best room in my house. The shepherds did not seem to do anything, they saw the Babe and praised God, but as light comes into our souls we want to look after that Person as much as we can. The shepherds did not handle the Babe, the proper handler at the time was the mother. The greatest priest that ever was could not do better than Mary at that time; it was a question of what was suitable.

It says, "Lo, an angel of the Lord was there by them" (the shepherds), but in verse 13 it is, "Suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host". The angel is the forerunner, the shepherds look on and are moved; now the testimony is moving and there is the multitude with the angel. It is to support what is going on. The word 'host' is remarkable, it shows interest and is a great testimony, they are declaring the mind of heaven in volume. The shepherds came into this great matter and became priests of God, and we want to be in that.

When this great scene is over the shepherds moved to Bethlehem. "And it came to pass, as the angels departed from them into heaven, that the shepherds said to one another, Let us make our way then now as far as Bethlehem, and let us see this thing that is come to pass, which the Lord has made known to us".

The great scene that had been displayed before their eyes would have been just historical if they had not moved, but as they move they are in line with the testimony, the concrete thing is not in the angels, but the Babe. "They came with haste", notice, "and found both Mary and Joseph, and the babe" -- the parents and then the Babe. (In Matthew the magi found the boy Jesus with his mother.) "And having seen it they made known about the country the thing which had been said to them concerning this child. And all who heard it wondered at the things said to them by the shepherds. But Mary kept all these things in her mind, pondering them in her heart". That is the good deposit, somebody is going to keep the treasure, it is treasured in the heart of love. And then "the shepherds returned, glorifying and praising God for all things which they had heard and seen, as it had been said to them". They returned to their local position; things would be better where they came from. Luke would say, there must be results and these results are to continue. The great scene that came before the vision of the shepherds is to impress them; we must follow these men out, we go on with the heavenly. We are being formed for heavenly part in the glory. Luke is preparing us for Paul's assembly. We are being made heavenly in Luke at the very outset.

THE INFLUENCE OF HEAVEN -- READING 2

Luke 9:28 - 36; Luke 10:17 - 24

We did not touch on verses 21 and 22 of chapter 3 this morning, but we should notice heaven coming down, first in one angel accompanied by heavenly light, of which we often sing as making all things bright, and the volume of angelic personages were

noted bringing heaven down, as it were, but in angels, not yet in men. The scripture for this reading will show how men come out from heaven in relation to what is below.

These two verses of chapter 3 are to be taken in relation to the babyhood of Christ, the condescension of the Person, and then there is growth; He grew, we are told, in wisdom and stature. His baptism is noted and He is praying in relation to it. It is said that "The heaven was opened, and the Holy Spirit descended in a bodily form as a dove upon him; and a voice came out of heaven, Thou art my beloved Son, in thee I have found my delight". We do not get that in relation to the babyhood of Christ, nor even the boyhood, but the manhood. God waited for those thirty years to announce this word, but it is in keeping with what is down here, that is, the Lord's own movements -- having been baptised and praying, as it says. It is a question of what was here according to the divine viewpoint, what came out in the Babe. The Lord here in a world of evil and about to carry on the service of God is seen praying. It points to the importance of prayer in relation to the divine scheme. It brings up the whole question as to 'why' prayer. This gospel stresses prayer and the intelligent inquiry as to why. It is linked up both here and in the passage in chapter 9:28,29. It says, "He went up into a mountain to pray. And as he prayed the fashion of his countenance became different".

God is signalising this attitude of the Lord's as a Man down here; there is something secret and mysterious as to the power of prayer, and how it glorifies God and brings out this voice; heaven sees it in a Man. It is part of the constitution, I suppose, that God designed in man, that he was to be an intelligent dependent being. The law of creation, is there anything in it to correspond? We have to ponder over Romans 8:19, which says, "For the

anxious looking out of the creature expects the revelation of the sons of God". Then we have, "For we know that the whole creation groans together and travails in pain together until now. And not only that, but even we ourselves ... groan in ourselves, awaiting adoption, that is the redemption of our body". And then one other scripture says (verse 26), "In like manner the Spirit joins also its help to our weakness; for we do not know what we should pray for as is fitting, but the Spirit itself makes intercession with groanings which cannot be uttered". Now it is to bring that out as to whether it is something to be looked into spiritually as to the why and wherefore of prayer and whether heaven descends in principle to the lower creation.

Daniel is an outstanding example of one who prayed in relation to a place on earth. He is called a man greatly beloved. Here the Lord is seen by heaven baptised, which would mean intelligent apprehension of what was suitable to God at that time. And then, being baptised and praying; one is the intelligent acceptance of God's judgment on conditions as they are, and the other is dependence on God in those conditions.

Alluding to Elijah, he was a man that was urgent; he put his face between his knees, a remarkable foreshadowing of what is seen here -- the Lord prayed all night; (chapter 6). Clearly he would be praying for something perfectly known to him that it would happen, whatever it was, whether it brings out the antagonism of what was known to be there. Paul said, Satan hindered us. Well, why should that be said? If God is all-powerful why should Satan hinder? Is it the want of prayer? What is prayer, what is the power of it, and the absence of it -- does it mean that Satan has advantage? Constantly we hear people say, God will overrule, God has ordered it. But what about the matter of prayer, has it been

wanting? The Lord shows here it was not wanting in Him; it is being baptised and praying, that is His attitude.

You get God's assurance about a thing; you cannot be happy until you do. There is too much of this saying, God has ordered or allowed it, and God can prevent or stop it. But what can I do? The word is, "faith removes mountains". It does not say God -- but faith does it (God does the thing, of course). It shows the power it must have in the universe, it is inscrutable, really, because it is not simply what is said, but it is faith; the prayer of faith shall heal the sick, it is the thing itself. God does not pray; it is constitutional in the creature, how far it goes down to man or angels is a question, but clearly it is intended to be constitutional in manhood. There is sometimes an element of fatalism with us; has Satan got some advantage on our side for want of prayer? The Lord said to Ananias in regard of Saul of Tarsus, Behold he prayeth. He is constitutionally right, because the Lord says -- not that he is going to pray -- but he is doing it.

I think the Lord is just leading the way in these passages for us, first in baptism, which is the acceptance of God's judgment on the conditions that exist. The judgment would not refer to Jesus, but He is identifying Himself with it as baptized -- and then He is praying. That is to say, it is the God and man position -- God in covenant. There is an obligation on the part of man mediatorially as before God that the thing must go through and that it depends upon my prayers, too. The mediatorial position is always present and we are included in it now as having the Spirit, and it makes you avoid mere glibness in dealing with these matters.

It is really a dispensational position that the Lord is inaugurating by example and it is owned in heaven; therefore, it is said the Holy Spirit descended in a

bodily form. The Deity is here, the Son is here in manhood praying, and the heavens are opened and the Spirit descends. He is not said to be sent here, He descended "in a bodily form as a dove upon him; and a voice came out of heaven, Thou art my beloved Son, in thee I have found my delight". That is the Deity, I apprehend, in a mediatorial position.

This mediatorial position is carried forward into chapter 9 which enlarges on the kingdom. The Lord said (verse 27), "I say unto you of a truth, There are some of those standing here who shall not taste death until they shall have seen the kingdom of God". That is a direct link with what we have looked at in chapter 3. And then verse 28, "And it came to pass after these words, about eight days, that taking Peter and John and James he went up into a mountain to pray". That is what He went up for according to this gospel. "And as he prayed the fashion of his countenance became different and his raiment white and effulgent. And lo, two men talked with him". Now it says that they were Moses and Elias and they spoke about His departure which He was about to accomplish in Jerusalem. It is the Lord Jesus in direct touch with heaven, and heaven comes out not in angelic form, but in human form. And as He is praying the fashion of His countenance became different and his raiment white and effulgent. So that now we have heavenly company come down. It is not exactly the mount of heaven, but it is very near. Heaven comes in in known personages in the testimony. We should become accustomed to heaven's way and this constitutional way in regard to this mediatorial system, because the mediatorial system shall continue after we leave.

As to the raiment, it is not swaddling clothes -- that belongs to a certain state -- as the depths God will reach, but now it is Manhood answering to

Adam as figure of the coming one. Adam was never a babe, never a boy -- nothing but a man. It is the clothing of a man that is changed. Clothing represents what the man is.

The idea of the kingdom belongs to God, there must be that in God that is always dominant; that God may be all in all. The Lord Jesus delivers up the kingdom to His God and Father. These references to His own personal kingdom are to bring Him personally into view and make Him personally dear to us and known in His greatness, too. Chapter 3 brings in what Christ was down here as the object of the Father's affections, and prayer entered into that; He would be the Son of the Father's love.

It would seem as if experience with God in His testimony must be seen in men. That is another side of the position that we are coming into, such as the heavenly, that experience with God must have part in this matter. These two men come out of heaven, they appear in glory. How are they capable of appearing in glory? Clearly it is an allusion to their history. From Adam God has been working out His own scheme and that scheme involves experience with God here below. There are persons in the divine realm that we are going to converse with and keep company with, they belong to the system, and that is what is in mind here. Peter, James and John are admitted into that experience with God in relation to Christ; they are speaking to Him. That gives them a certain moral distinction. We ought to learn to value men who have experience, because they belong to the divine scheme of things; the young brothers and sisters are slow to learn this. Moses and Elijah appear in glory, as if they take the lead; they talk with Him and speak of His departure which He was to accomplish in Jerusalem. That is another part of the great thing that they are engaged with; they understand and know about it. We do

not know what the personal histories of Gabriel and Michael were; Moses is a man whose history is given us fully; Elijah's is not, he came in in a crisis. The point is that we are going to be in this kingdom of God which is seen here, and we have to do with persons of experience. Moses and Elias are finished products, they are brought in prepared beforehand to express this thought of experience, that it is a part of the divine scheme, and now is the time to acquire it. Peter and the others here are to be fitted, for they are to evangelise.

The fact that Moses and Elias appeared in glory is an additional compliment to them, that they were able to converse with Jesus. The greatness of the glory did not hamper them, showing the liberty we may have. We are to be constituted to take up that place, that we are able to converse with Jesus. We will meet Jesus in those courts above, and we will be able to introduce the conversation, and He will listen to us. It is to accustom us to the things in mind for us; the Lord knows how to be mutual. Moses and Elias knew what to speak about, what was in keeping with the moment. They are not talking about His ascension, they are talking of His exodus, alluding to what Moses was well accustomed to, of Israel going out of Egypt.

In the next reference (verse 51), it is said, "When the days of his receiving up were fulfilled". We have now got the counterpart, it is not His departure -- the departure is what you leave -- the receiving up refers to heaven. What a history Jerusalem had; the Lord is going out a certain way, by the gibbet. There are just a few words about it here, but volumes have been filled about the subject, as John says, the world itself could not contain the books. Peter and James and John are learning the mutuality of heaven and they ought to work it out in their part in the assembly later. What liberty Moses and Elijah had. That

liberty is to be accorded to me. Sonship gives me status; I belong with Christ.

Now Peter and those with him were oppressed with sleep; it shows how little had been effected yet in them, how much work had to be done on them. "But having fully awoke up they saw his glory, and the two men who stood with him. And it came to pass as they departed from him, Peter said to Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here; and let us make three tabernacles, one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said". Meaning, how much is to be effected in this brother; and so it is in our meetings -- how much is to be effected in me that I might join into this matter constitutionally. This is to bring out how far these three brothers had got, as I was saying, "Not knowing what he said". How incongruous! "But as he was saying these things, there came a cloud and overshadowed them, and they feared as they entered into the cloud: and there was a voice out of the cloud saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him". Meaning, all this is for those three brothers; it is for all of us, of course, as to what is to be effected in us, as I should know what I am saying. This heavenly matter is a mutual thing; He would awaken us to bring us into the thing, that we have part in it as knowing and as having a status. Am I in keeping with that status?

The first lesson in the educational system is to listen to this one Person, the Son of the Father's love. He is to be listened to at all times; they must hear Him. We do not pray to Moses or to Elijah, nor to Mary; Jesus is the only teacher -- "My Teacher", Mary Magdalene said; she was learning. "Jesus alone with themselves" (Mark 9:8) -- that is the nucleus of the new system. Mary in chapter 10 was in keeping with the position on the mount. The matter of His departure is one thing, receiving up is another, the glorious reception He received up

there in heaven! "And it came to pass when the days of his receiving up were fulfilled, that he stedfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem" (verse 51).

In chapter 10 I thought we might see the same subject of heaven in relation to service here below. The Lord appointed seventy others and sent them out two and two, thirty-five pairs of brothers sent to testify, and they come back with shades of success. "And the seventy returned with joy, saying, Lord, even the demons are subject to us through thy name". This is a subject that belongs to what we are saying, that heaven has to be cleared of the devil, we are not going to be there in company with him. "I beheld Satan as lightning falling out of heaven. Behold, I give you the power of treading upon serpents and scorpions and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall in anywise injure you". Thus the whole matter of service is cleared up and the Lord is saying a much greater thing as to their work. All the power they needed was available to heal the sick and the like, and there was also experience. So that in the Lord's service we are to remember the greatness of divine power against Satan that has compelled him to fall, not descend, but fall. Demons are simply emissaries of the devil. Satan himself falls, he is not cast out here, but he falls which would mean that he had lost his place, his exploits are over, he has got to go because greater things have come about. Heaven would be filled with persons who have renown, persons who have names. Satan lost his renown, he has no name at all really.

That is a settled matter now, the matter of the devil and the power in service, yet He says, "rejoice not, that the spirits are subjected to you, but rejoice that your names are written in the heavens". It is a question of renown, the renown that we acquire by the Spirit of God. The saints are taking the place of the devil in all his renown there; certain great men

now are doing great things. It opens up the road to us as to what we shall see when we get there, and the habit of getting acquainted with one another and giving due credit to everything that is a part of the name. The mighty men are coming into light one after another; it is taking on the whole armour of God. We have already alluded to prayer. It is a question of what you are since you got the Spirit of God, but they had acquired renown through certain relations with Christ.

So it says, "In the same hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit and said, I praise thee, Father, Lord of the heaven and of the earth, that thou hast hid these things from wise and prudent, and hast revealed them to babes". That is, the Lord is capable of being affected in any given time by happenings. Great things are happening in the world, but spiritual brothers are getting help in their souls, acquiring a name. Romans helps us in that because the apostle mentions persons that are to be saluted. As to the babes, I suppose that would revert back to when the disciples began under the Father's hand, then they were making headway, they were further on now. That is, God took them on without any human sophistication. Even a man like Paul, He took him on, but he would himself accept that he was taken on as a babe, he had to learn everything.

I think you come on here to the perfecting work in the Lord's mind. It says, "And having turned to the disciples privately he said, Blessed are the eyes which see the things that ye see". They are getting on now. It says He rejoiced in His spirit; He saw something in Peter or some of them that indicated there was a work of God. When Peter made his confession there was an immediate work of God. Undoubtedly the Lord takes on certain ones to make outstanding what He has in mind as to all.

THE INFLUENCE OF HEAVEN -- READING 3

Luke 11:1 - 13; Luke 15:7 - 10

The subject selected so far in its subdivisions is associated with certain circumstances, the heavenly side appearing to enforce certain other features of the truth. Yesterday afternoon we looked at chapter 10 following on the scene on the mount; chapter 10 dealing with the service of God. The Lord selected seventy others besides the apostles and they were successful over the emissaries of the devil. The Lord introduced the heavenly to balance the experience that the servants had and evidently to influence them in view of further service. The individual example of the effect of the truth in that section is in Mary at the end of chapter 10, as if the Spirit of God would afford us examples of the truth as we look into it. Mary, it is said, having sat at the feet of Jesus, was listening to His word. That is a characteristic feature, an example for us not to be overcome by our own business or household affairs, but to pay attention to what Jesus says first. Then this individual side develops into the collective position into which this heavenly truth should enter.

In chapter 11 we reach the Father who is of heaven, He gives the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him; it brings out the Father in a characteristic way. He answers us as His children if we seek the Spirit, for we cannot be locally right in the assembly save as having the Spirit. Then chapter 15 is an evangelic position into which the heavenly enters, that is, the joy of it, the joy of heaven coming into the preaching of the gospel.

The "praying in a certain place" would refer to what existed in the place, and therefore now the

immediate concern is the circumstances in this district, whether the Spirit has full place in the gatherings. When He ceased, one of His disciples said to Him, 'Teach us to pray'. The disciple is like Mary, the learner; she was listening to the word; now He would teach her to pray. He would wish all the other disciples would teach her to pray. The inference is they did not know how. Remitting and forgiving sins by the Holy Spirit has to come in for spiritual help in a local meeting. That is the seeking, leading up to the Father who is of heaven. The idea is, I am of Chicago or I am of New York. The preposition 'of' denotes that the person is characteristic of the place.

The Father is characteristic of heaven, it is the Father who is of heaven. He gives the Spirit in that connection to those who ask Him. The last Adam, the second man, is of heaven, or out of heaven; he is characterised by the place. In Romans 8 the Spirit's position in connection with prayer is adding its help to our weakness, for we do not know what we should pray for as we ought. It is a chapter unfolding the truth of the Holy Spirit. He makes intercession for us according to God, so that we have an immense means of learning by the Spirit. The first half of this chapter in Romans seems to be especially devoted to the Spirit and what we have in Him, and amongst the things mentioned is that He adds His help to our weaknesses. So that explains the word -- "became strong out of weakness" (Hebrews 11:34). It is a subjective condition, so that the Spirit comes into our prayers, things are amplified by the Spirit as you proceed in prayer.

If we are honest men and women we want help locally. The Lord is in some position that required prayer. The link would be what happened in Martha's house. There is one person there who is governed by the heavenly truth, "This is my beloved Son, hear him" (chapter 9:35); but Martha is entirely ignoring it. Luke is

concerned about the public position and Martha is discrediting it in her house although nominally in fellowship; she opens the house to the Lord and receives Him, but as inside she attacks Him and attacks her sister. Her sister is thoroughly in accord with the Lord and what was said about Him on the mount, but the Lord is praying that Martha might be set right.

One line of the truth before us is prayer. The Lord is seen praying after He is baptised; that belongs to the baptised company of persons -- praying. The disciples observed Him, as the Lord is not presented as praying with them, they are by themselves. This disciple would have observed the Lord's attitude in His prayer to His Father. Martha's attack on the Lord and her sister is grouped with the Lord praying in a certain place and how He taught the disciples. Some members of the household are with the truth and some not; the more talkative are usually not with the truth, there is a divided household. Mary would be saying, I wish I had more power with my sister. The Lord said, Martha, Martha. He announced her name twice, as much as to imply that she was of importance in His mind, and would have her set right. Luke leaves her not set right; he does not say that she hearkened to the Lord's word. John brings in the abstract side, that she was a true person at heart; he tells us that she got right about the matter of the resurrection; she confessed the truth. There is a counter element that is almost invariably to be found in every local meeting. That element is Martha, she is a sort of responsible one because it is her house. We learn to save such a situation by thinking of the Father's name first, and then the order of the kingdom. When ye pray, say, Father.

The prayer meeting has come into great prominence. The position really begins in New Zealand, as we

have often noted, and runs on to the end of Monday. The meeting for prayer is the culmination on the Monday. This section is to show the importance of the meeting for prayer and that we should know how to pray, whom to address. When ye pray, say, Father, the Lord said. That is what He is teaching here, and He is telling us that the Father is of heaven, and as of heaven with fatherly feelings; He gives the best there is. It does not appear that He prayed with the disciples; in every instance He is seemingly by Himself. He departed from them even in Gethsemane, a stone's throw away from them. I suppose it is to preserve His personal dignity.

This is a very important matter because the prayer meeting is connected with the house of God, although the house of God is not properly a local thought, there is only one house of God. There are many assemblies, but only one house; the bearing is universal, the prayer is universal. There are certain brothers who are habitually silent, which is a very humbling and sorrowful thing, because Luke would say about the young man of Nain as he comes into life spiritually, that he began to speak, as if that was the idea -- priesthood is in prospect. Why should we not all pray if it is open for us to do so? This disciple was concerned about all the brethren praying, and not praying, but knowing how to pray. A brother going about in service never forgets the local position in which he is.

The Lord prayed all night, we are told, but that would not be suitable for a prayer meeting. In a local position brevity is important. Another important thing is the question of forgiveness: "Remit us our sins, for we also remit to everyone indebted to us". I forgive habitually and look to others to forgive, too. There cannot be wholesome conditions without mutual forgiveness; confess your sins one to another. The Lord is stressing grace, complete pouring out of grace.

Something will come out of it; we confess our faults to one another and pray for one another. You cannot keep on forgiving a heretic, the scripture balances itself. The greatest burden usually in a locality is household conditions. The local condition is supposed to be more or less healthy, that is what the Lord is basing these instructions on. He says, "Lead us not into temptation". You wonder why that is said; it is a solemn thing if I get into a position under the influence of sin and I sin. Why should it happen? So the prayer is brought into that in this passage. He says further, "Who among you shall have a friend, and shall go to him at midnight and say to him, Friend ...". That is the urgency of prayer, what it effects, that it is greater than friendship, it has greater influence than friendship.

There is definiteness in asking for three loaves. The power of prayer is accentuated, keep on praying. It says, "I say to you, Although he will not get up and give them to him because he is his friend, because of his shamelessness, at any rate, he will rise and give him as many as he wants". Meaning that the man is so affected by being disturbed by this urgency he gives him as many as he wishes. So the Lord says, "Ask, and it shall be given to you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened to you. For everyone that asks receives; and he that seeks finds and to him that knocks it will be opened". That is very encouraging for us locally, the power of prayer.

The Lord will use you as you pray; He will not go past you if he can use you. There is on Monday nights a great demand on vessels for the answers to the prayers. We want to be ready to be used, in the prayers being effectuated.

Verses 10 - 12 bring out fatherly qualities and how they are available, in prayer, to the children, and then he says, "If therefore ye, being evil, know how

to give good gifts to your children, how much rather shall the Father who is of heaven give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him"? So that the Father who is of heaven is the point before us. He is characteristic of heaven, His attitude is giving. The Father is thus available to us and gives us the very best. The local company and the assembly generally are to be reflective of what is heavenly, and the Father is thinking of that. Under the government of God we are set in circumstances that fit us for certain services, and God takes us up and uses us in that way. He groups circumstances or facts to bring out the great truth of the dispensation from the standpoint of grace. Heaven comes into view, that is what Paul had in mind -- the heavenly truth. Jehovah says as to His house, "my house is a house of prayer" (Luke 19:46). He made certain persons great there, so that we get well rewarded in going to the prayer meeting. The prayer of faith shall heal the sick. This is a wonderful weapon of service. Luke would understand what diseases mean. We belong to the mediatorial position and as receiving the Spirit we come into it formally and the Spirit is ready to add His help to our weaknesses; so that we should be on the praying side of the matter. The Lord leads the way in it; there is something in it beyond words -- it is a subtle thing.

The ordinary father would not feed his children such as is indicated here -- if a son ask for bread and the father give him a stone, or a fish, and instead give him a serpent, or if he shall ask an egg, shall give him a scorpion. It is to bring out that fatherhood considers for the children -- to bring out what God is. He has the things that we ask for; all the wealth of heaven is at the disposal of the Father and it is given to those who ask Him. The Spirit is viewed as proceeding from the Father -- knowing perfectly all that is in the divine counsels and what God is.

He carries all that infinite wealth and it is available to prayer.

The Lord was casting out a demon and it was dumb (verse 14), as if He is making way for brothers who do not speak in the assembly. They are hindering the Spirit. The Lord has to act in another way, not praying, so that the dumb spirit is cast out. The devil would keep us silent because prayer is so effectual. This section is intended to help us locally to bring everything into the meeting for prayer. Heaven is so ready to answer and makes so much of it that the prayer meeting would settle the matter.

Then the next thing is to be a vessel ready to be used in answer to the prayers. So, if a person is going on wrongly in a meeting I am ready to go to see him to rebuke him, Praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God. Chapter 15 is to bring out this matter in relation to the gospel, heaven's joy over the repentance of sinners. We have been talking of prayer meetings, now it is gospel meetings. The result in our times in gospel meetings is very small in the sense of actual converts, but they are very important in regard to improvement of the saints, the gospel being effective in saints; it should be kept going. What goes on in our meetings Sunday nights is important in the sense that if only saints are listening they get help in their souls. You get some light and you say, I have never repented of something I did many years ago, and you get help to repent of that thing.

It is the time of faith; faith cometh by hearing, hearing by the word of God. The word of God is going on and faith acts of itself. Take the meeting in Mary's house in Acts 12, they needed it because they had lost the way of faith. They had been praying for Peter's release, but when he did come to the door they did not believe it. The habit of having prayer in the house before the gospel is blessed of God.

It is ruinous to ask a brother to preach as a matter of turn; the preaching must always be based on gift, on ability and on being sent; and so selection of preachers is important because God connects the gospel service with gift. The anointing is like a uniform in the army or navy, a man is appointed to do a certain thing because he is supposed to be qualified. The meeting room should not be a training place. It should be a place of skilled workmen. "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to preach" (Luke 4:18) -- that is not a matter of history, but as a model for preachers. The gospel is to be fully made known by Paul. Who is to be the judge in this matter of preaching? The brother who invites him should be the judge.

(Quote verses 4 to 10.) In both cases the sinner is brought in, but the piece of silver is lost in the house, the sheep is in the wilderness. This is clearly an evangelical picture, the other one is something that has happened in the profession, in the house. Sweeping is not evangelising, it is removing dust, making the house as it should be. Her point is to get this lost piece, and the result is that heaven is brought into it. The house is the dwelling place, involving the sphere of the profession and that a person should be lost there is remarkable. Why is he hiding himself in the house? To go out on the mountains you get away from peoples' view, but here in the house you are in view. Here we have a repenting sinner, he continues repenting. Heaven is a wonderful place and is a sympathetic place, and in the presence of God there is rejoicing. It is the personnel there, notice is taken of repentance. All this is to bring heaven near us, all to bring us near so that we can focus our eyes upon heaven. These chapters in Luke are intended to qualify us as having to do with heaven. Heaven is brought to us, but we are also brought to heaven. These meetings ought to bring

us nearer to heaven so that we can visualise it. The woman alludes to the subjective side of things; that would draw all into the matter. The saints as a whole are concerned; the sweeping is a feminine thought.

THE INFLUENCE OF HEAVEN -- READING 4

Luke 19:37 - 46; Luke 24:1 - 9, 44 - 52

Heaven enters into these scriptures in relation to dispensational truth which always occasions questioning and requires instruction in us; and the word as to the heavens, the sun in the heavens and the heavenly bodies are to be for times and seasons and days and years to connect up with this. Heaven determines the changes of dispensation. So in the passage in chapter 19 we have peace in the heaven instead of peace on earth, as in the case of the multitude of the heavenly host in chapter 2. Clearly the teaching of the gospel is in mind, that there are those who observed the pleasure of heaven, it must have first place; it must take precedence over earth -- in result heaven comes first. Therefore, we have to look to heaven for guidance as to change of this dispensation as it was when the Jewish dispensation discontinued and the Christian one began. In either case heaven has to say to it, and this intensifies the importance of what we have been saying, that we should have our eye on heaven.

Ques. The prodigal had sinned against heaven; we must not do that?

In the prodigal's case heaven is owned as having rights. No doubt in that case it would be the heavens as affecting the earth unofficially, heaven in a material sense. We are now confronted with shortage of foods and all kinds of materials and we are reminded that we are dependent upon heaven for these. If we are

in need of substance we have to look to heaven. It has to do with times and seasons. The earth yields because of heaven's influence, rain and fruitful seasons. So that the heavens in Genesis come in on the second day and the waters are separated and the material heavens are between the waters and are there in relation to the earth physically. So that I suppose the idea was the prodigal had sinned against that, against heaven. Heaven was very bountiful to him and his father, and he had squandered it. The prodigal would mean that the Gentile had benefited by material things from heaven but failed to recognise it in any sense in giving of thanks.

We are told that every creature of God is good and to be received with thanksgiving and sanctified by the word of God and prayer. The benefits of heaven promote thanksgiving to God, whether they be food or clothing or medicine -- all of God's creatures -- and the return from us is acceptable to God.

We are reminded of addition in chapter 19:37,38, "All the multitude of the disciples began, rejoicing, to praise God with a loud voice for all the works of power which they had seen, saying, Blessed the king that comes in the name of the Lord: peace in heaven, and glory in the highest". As if the teaching had been resultful and the time of the Lord's entrance as Messiah was now there and this is the volume of praise. It is not from angels come down, but from men profiting by what they saw in Christ. The heavens have precedence now in the matter of peace in a general way, not simply individuals in heaven or earth, but in heaven as a place. It reflects what is heavenly. This is the dispensational side of the position; it is a critical time because we are passing out of one condition of things into another and heaven must be our guide. These disciples are taught by observation and by direct instruction or by example, taught to see this. They are on the side of

God as the angels were in chapter 2. The sequence is to bring out their greatness. If these be silent, not heavenly angels, but stones would cry out in His testimony. Here the announcement is the positive side, peace in heaven and glory in the highest. This is the key to the dispensation. Heaven is being announced by some persons on earth, not by angels. God is producing a witness on earth. The devil is doing his worst against the Jews, but God is going to take them up and the devil knows that, and we know that a change is coming and we will celebrate it. That is the great point, the changeover is to be celebrated and in doing it to enhance Christ and the greatness of His Person. God will not send angels down to do it, but He will send stones to do it.

This is an allusion to Psalm 118:26, "Blessed be he that cometh in the name of Jehovah. We have blessed you out of the house of Jehovah". We have an allusion elsewhere to Zacharias; the point is that we have someone on earth besides angels that know the mind of heaven and are giving it precedence in the matter of peace. Psalm 118 will take place later; the Jews will welcome Him later, but there is a remnant the Lord has secured to bear witness. Reconciliation in Christianity precedes the idea of our exalted place. Peter introduces Psalm 118:22, "The stone which the builders rejected", and what follows later in Psalm 118 is connected with the next dispensation. Paul spoke of himself as an abortion, born out of due time. This is a testimony out of due time, it belongs to Christianity and makes everything of heaven. Still it was out of his time, meaning that he represented the Jewish remnant in the future.

In Matthew 21:9 the heavenly side is connected with the present dispensation. "The crowds who went before him and who followed cried, saying, Hosanna to the Son of David". That chapter is preceded by

the blind men in chapter 20. They begin a note about Jesus which indicates that He was entering into His territory, "Have mercy on us, Lord, Son of David". Jesus was about to cross over and they celebrated Him as the Son of David because that was the time for it, and then the riding into the city. The quotation is from Zechariah. Zion's king was there and they take up the same note as they go on to the city that the blind man started with. The children take up the same note, causing opposition to Christ by the leaders, and the Lord says to them, which is a quotation from Psalm 8:2, "Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou established praise". It is the babes there, they are singing in the temple.

So that there is no doubt that the Jewish side is announced but it really has Christianity in mind. There was a tribute to the great king by the little ones. The stones are not alluded to there, but God effected power in the little ones to praise Him. This is grace, but still the word about Jerusalem is very solemn. It is a beautiful thought that runs through Luke that grace is to be with us. "And he answering said to them, I say unto you, If these shall be silent, the stones will cry out. And as he drew near, seeing the city, he wept over it, saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, even at least in this thy day, the things that are for thy peace: but now they are hid from thine eyes; for days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall make a palisaded mound about thee, and shall close thee around, and keep thee in on every side, and shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children in thee; and shall not leave in thee a stone upon a stone: because thou knewest not the season of thy visitation".

So that it is for us now to see a little of this subject in Luke, how the heart of Christ is brought into it in sympathy. He says to His disciples, You must begin there to preach the gospel. It is the government of

God in the closing and winding up of the dispensation, but nevertheless it is the patience and longsuffering of God as well; whilst awful penalties are going to be poured out on Christendom we are not going to give up the idea of the dispensation, it is one of grace.

There are two references to stones in this chapter. The idea of stones crying out would mean that it is a testimony, God making the hardest thing to do His will. A stone not left on a stone would mean a building thrown down. The testimony here below to the changing over, that the earth is to be denied peace, yet it is persons on earth who are testifying to this.

This chapter would introduce feelings with us. The Lord weeps. The weeping prophet wrote Lamentations. It is what the government of God requires that draws out these feelings in the Lord. Noah had to wait 120 years; the longsuffering of God waited while the ark was preparing. We are looking now for the Jews to come in. It is no loss to us in this, but the bearing would be on the mere professors as the dispensation changes over. All the book of Revelation discloses the awful sufferings that they will have to endure. John is also a weeping prophet in Revelation. He weeps because there was no one to open the book, as he thought, and then as eating the little book it was in his mouth sweet but in the belly bitter. He is a feeling man. Awful things are going to happen and we are not unfeeling. We rejoice in hope, as the Lord said, "Rejoice that your names are written in the heavens" (Luke 10:20), but that does not incapacitate us as to feeling.

Ques. Is the severity of judgment in this chapter seen in that the children are included in it, whereas with the unbelievers in the wilderness they escaped it?

The little children were to go into Canaan. The destruction of Jerusalem is one of the most awful things that ever happened and the Lord is feeling it anticipatively.

We have the first fruits of the Spirit. The second fruits will be among the nations and the Jews presently. God would make men out of us and draw us to His side of things, so that we are not indifferent to things that happen in the government of God. These chapters are full of all this -- the changeover of the dispensation and how God has a witness on earth as to what is going to happen in heaven. The finishing touches on the assembly will be to revive these feelings. God produces feelings. In 2 Samuel 21 David was a very feeling, sympathetic man, but he was called upon to meet a very great emergency, a famine of three years, and he had made no inquiry about it. Then David did inquire, and God says, it is because of Saul and his bloody house, because he slew the Gibeonites. David makes no further inquiry, it is a question of the government of God. It is not what they gain, but what God would convey of His mind about the matter. Seven men were hung up on the hill -- David apparently did not feel it -- but one woman, Rizpah, did. She prepared a place, a shelter for those bodies from the storms and rains and kept the birds away. What an awful thing it was to be there! She suffered, she had right feelings; she would say, why are they not buried? But they were not buried; to leave them hanging for all that time -- she felt it and stayed there. Someone told David and he began to repent, and afterwards God was propitious to the land because of the feelings in the matter. So, there is need of feeling about a matter. God is looking for right feelings.

The Lord Jesus is the feeling One here. Think of His glorious dignity when He said, "If these shall be silent, the stones will cry out". The Spirit of God is stressing the Person of Christ, the glory of Christ in all this. The Spirit of God comes down from heaven carrying all that God is down here. He hovers over the face of the deep, as He does now. These feelings

shown here in the Lord should characterise the saints as taking up discipline matters, because the discipline goes on and has to be carried out. Those in Corinth failed to feel with the man that had been put out of fellowship. The seven yearling lambs in Numbers 28 speak of the suffering Christ. That would greatly modify our spirits and soften them in connection with divine feelings and emotions in any kind of discipline. God is looking for promotion of that in us now.

"And entering into the temple, he began to cast out those that sold and bought in it, saying to them, It is written, My house is a house of prayer, but ye have made it a den of robbers". Attention is called to the dispensation, what it is publicly. The destruction of Jerusalem is on account of it, and this is a manifest evidence of making it a place of merchandise instead of a house of prayer. In regard to robbery, we get in Malachi 3:8, "Will a man rob God?" It is a solemn indictment.

A reference was made as to what the authorities say about this -- that the Lord Jesus used physical violence, and our young brothers here should do the same. It is said that the Lord cast them out. In John 2:14 - 16 it says, "He found in the temple the sellers of oxen and sheep and doves, and the money-changers sitting; and, having made a scourge of cords, he cast them all out of the temple, both the sheep and the oxen; and he poured out the change of the money-changers, and overturned the tables, and said to the sellers of doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house a house of merchandise". I suppose John would bear more on the point that the Lord would use violence, but still the physical side was greater in connection with the sheep and oxen. But even if He did use violence on them it was in keeping with the dispensation. He had not yet announced the kingdom of heaven and that Peter should put the sword in the sheath, it is the old

dispensation still. Goodness and severity run through until the changeover. The wickedness that is in the Christian profession is under God's eye to be dealt with in time.

Rem. The temple built by Herod was too big, it allowed too much room for that kind of business. It was to call attention to the degeneration of the dispensation. The book of Revelation is to show what God is going to do with it, as to His feelings and how long He is to go on with it. It is the long-suffering of God to keep on with it.

In chapter 24 the point in mind is to show how heaven interfered at the tomb of Jesus to change our minds about anything that might be involved in unbelief or superstition. It says, two men stood by them in shining garments. They came from heaven suddenly to remedy the situation, to check some evil -- unbelief. Then in the second section read, verses 44 - 52, the Lord stresses the Spirit coming in from above, involving clothing and the witness to the gospel, that the gospel should begin at Jerusalem; and that He was going up as quickly as possible to set up that order of things, the gospel order of things, and it should begin at Jerusalem.

The sweetness of honeycomb is in the mouth of Christ, the principle of mutuality is there; the Lord effects it in the disciples and as completing the work in this chapter. Why the combination broiled fish and honeycomb? It is sovereignty. How would they get the fish? The fish of the sea belongs to God. The Lord indicates to Peter how it could happen; they had to go and get what the sea produces; the Son of man has rights in the sea. It is the product of the sovereignty of God. Bees go to the flowers and get the honey, but the fish of the sea are a sovereign product of God that the believer has to go and get by line or net -- it belongs to God. The thought of mutuality would come in with the

piece of fish and honeycomb. It is what you share with others.

The opening up of our understanding to understand the Scriptures is a provision of Christ. In verse 42 we have the broiled fish and honeycomb, and "These are the words" -- showing that they had profited by them -- then, "that all that is written concerning me in the law of Moses and prophets and psalms must be fulfilled". We have the mutual side, Moses and the Psalms, but it is not only an exposition; this is giving understanding. That is additional to an exposition, but if we have not got understanding we do not get anything out of it. "The Lord will give thee understanding in all things" (2 Timothy 2:7). The Lord expanded what they had -- a full understanding of all that the Scriptures spoke of Christ -- a marvellous provision of food.

We have the Lord's own word here and it is well to note it. If you want to go by it, it is very profitable. When He spoke to those going to Emmaus He interpreted to them all the things concerning Himself. There is much that is prophetic in the Psalms. It is very remarkable the number of Psalms touched on in Hebrews 1. God honours the saints' experience. He brings out the testimony of the glories of Christ in the first of Hebrews.

In these last chapters in Luke a crisis has come. John the baptist, according to John, makes a great deal of heaven. Here we have the changeover in mind and the importance of our being in it and coming out in testimony at the end. "Ye are witnesses", and the clothing from above has its own word, that we are not to begin to preach until we are clothed with power from on high; and then returning to Jerusalem. Balance is one of the greatest things in the universe, right balance about everything. The universe could not exist without it. "Thou art weighed in the balances" (Daniel 5:27). The greatness of Christ is

to be kept in view -- and the disciples were praising and saying glory in the highest, peace in heaven, but the Lord alludes to His own Person when He said the stones would cry out if they did not.

THE INFLUENCE OF HEAVEN -- READING 5

Acts 1:6 - 11; Acts 10:9 - 17; 2 Corinthians 12:1 - 10

What is in mind particularly in this last reading on our subject is that we may get some insight into heaven as a place, a place to which man has access. The Acts has the assembly in view, and in the main that it might be qualified as a vessel of witness or testimony here. But there is also the thought of looking into heaven, and in Peter's case something that comes down and goes up and stays and that what comes out of it goes back into it; and then Paul's experience in being caught up to the third heaven, calling attention to degrees in the subject of heaven. We have also Stephen, a well known passage as to heaven, the heaven opened to him and what he saw there. We have concrete actual witnesses in Peter and Paul, Stephen, and we may add John according to Revelation who was invited up to heaven. In the assembly we have the effect of all these witnesses carried down; the thing is in the assembly, it is a treasure in the way of light and knowledge.

Ques. Is heaven available now to us, that we reach it?

That is in mind in Paul. John was invited into it, although he was invited up to see things that referred to the judgment of God mainly, yet he saw great and blessed positive things, especially the assembly itself coming down from God, from heaven.

What is in mind is the 'up' line. In the main the twelve point to the 'down' line, that is, what comes

down in testimony here. From the time that the Jews rejected the testimony of the gospel the idea of what is in heaven came into view in Stephen, and then Peter seeing the vessel coming down; and then Paul himself being caught up. He was caught up to the third heaven and into Paradise and he heard wonderful things there. This is to enrich the assembly in the sense of testimony and the knowledge of it, what is in heaven.

I suggested verses 6 - 9 so that we might see how we are shut up to what the Spirit would bring in. There are restrictions placed on the apostles as to their knowledge; the Lord said, It is not yours to know. There is a suggestion of a principle that you are not to know the times and seasons; they are to be known, but it is not particularly Christianity; He is confining them to what would be properly Christianity. The two witnesses in white addressed them as "men of Galilee", not as apostles or disciples -- that is your position; you have everything to learn. And they just inquire, "Why do ye stand looking into heaven?" You might say that is contradictory, because we are to look into it, whether we see it with a natural eye or if it is of faith.

Ques. "In like manner" -- would that refer to the appearing? It would not be the rapture. That is the thought -- as ye have seen Him go -- He is to return. "This Jesus who has been taken up from you into heaven, shall thus come in the manner in which ye have beheld him going into heaven". That was the word left to them, that they were to expect Him; it is an added thought to verses 6 - 9, where they are shut up to the Spirit. Give attention to the Spirit and everything will be clear, nothing will be omitted that you should know. "The Holy Spirit having come upon you, and ye shall be my witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth". They are

bound up with the Spirit. He did not go up secretly as far as they were concerned, He went up in their sight, as Elijah's going up. The disciples are very special in His mind, and things happen before their eyes. In anything that the Spirit is doing, make abundant room for it. What is in our minds must be clarified. The fact that those who saw Him went to the upper room shows that they were adjusted. They went to the upper room and then to the temple, and then the Spirit would use them subsequently. The handiwork of Christ is of great interest to heaven -- the ten days and what they were doing in them.

The second chapter tells us that "When the day of Pentecost was now accomplishing, they were all together in one place". There was not an absentee, they were together in affection. The Spirit descended in a bodily form and abode on Jesus, and here it is to a large number of persons, and it sat on each of them.

Ques. In John 14 it is the Spirit in you, and here it is upon you; is that the idea of the anointing? I think it is the public position. Luke has in mind almost entirely the public position because it is a question of testimony.

The moral position of chapter 1 corresponds to the moral position of Psalm 1. It is the godly man, how worthy he is. What Christ is effecting is proving itself in how the disciples behaved morally. The white involves purity -- that touch entered into the upper room, because the persons there were not only brothers or sisters. It says, "they returned to Jerusalem from the mount called the mount of Olives, which is near Jerusalem, a Sabbath-day's journey off. And when they were come into the city, they went up to the upper chamber, where were staying both Peter, and John, and James, and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James son of Alphaeus and Simon the zealot, and Jude the brother of James.

These gave themselves all with one accord to continual prayer, with several women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren" (verses 12 - 14). That is the composition of the upper room -- brothers and sisters. The adjustment had that in mind; the composition would be in purity. Then it says, "in those days" -- that is ten days; there were never ten days like them; "Peter, standing up in the midst of the brethren, said, (the crowd of names who were together was about a hundred and twenty) ..." The word 'crowd' is used, but each one has his distinction; what follows in the selection of the twelfth apostle is to bring out all the moral qualities. In the second chapter each one is noticed by the Spirit as are they all together. This is a company of brothers and sisters; that is carried through into 1 Corinthians, and what is proper in such a circle. We must have both brothers and sisters.

The Lord did more than affect the twelve; He affected others. It is remarkable how His own brothers and His own mother come into it. The spiritual affections attaching to sisters are of God and they are to be kept in that way. I believe the two men in white are to point out what is necessary.

Ques. Would this connect with the previous scripture read, "Lord, teach us to pray" (Luke 11:1) -- would this complete their education?

Yes, He would open their understanding. Peter quickly uses the Lord's instruction. One of the greatest things in the young is to have obedience. The Holy Spirit is given to those who obey.

These are fundamental thoughts leading up to the assembly. The assembly is formed in chapter 2, and we have arrived at the dispensation. Now we should consider how certain ones are brought into heavenly things. Stephen as a martyr -- the heavens are opened to him. It is a wider thought, it is introductory to Paul's ministry. Peter being administrator, having

the keys, he is caused to be in a trance to see this wonderful vision, this vessel like a great sheet knit at the four corners and let down to earth, wherein were all manner of four-footed beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air; all in it, so as to make him a real administrator of heavenly things, so that he might use these keys in heavenly dignity in letting in the Gentiles. There came suddenly a sound from heaven. It would almost seem as though heaven was just waiting for them to be gathered.

What we do down here is no accident, it is in the heavenly design. The thing happened suddenly, just as the two men appeared suddenly in Luke 24 and the heavenly visitants in Luke 2. God has His mind and it depends upon certain things in us -- how serious if we fail in it! God reckons on certainty in His work. What is down here corresponds fully to what is up there. It is a divine Person down here and a divine Person up there. We are essential to the divine pattern, the divine mind.

As to Peter's vision, the word 'vessel' is significant and really points to the assembly and each one of us is a vessel. Paul was a vessel. "And he became hungry and desired to eat. But as they were making ready an ecstasy came upon him: and he beholds the heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending, as a great sheet, bound by the four corners and let down to the earth; in which were all the quadrupeds and creeping things of the earth, and the fowls of the heaven. And there was a voice to him, Rise, Peter, slay and eat. And Peter said, In no wise, Lord; for I have never eaten anything common or unclean. And there was a voice again the second time to him, What God has cleansed, do not thou make common. And this took place thrice, and the vessel was straightway taken up into heaven".

Peter is fully affected by what he saw; he is ready

now for the heavenly matter. The sheet, although of woven material, is bound, it is going to hold, it is going back into heaven, to stay there. What the Lord says to Peter is very striking. Peter was very definite as to how religious he was, but he was really condemning himself in his remarks. He says, In no wise, Lord. He is a very bold man, he is very abrupt in his answer; he is combating heaven. The thing happening three times succeeds in changing his mind.

In these last days when religious denominations are multiplying the work is harder because every time you have to deal with a soul he has some predilections of earlier experience. They have in their minds earlier things and they are usually prejudices and they have to overcome them. We have to be patient in dealing with souls, but we must overcome the prejudices, so that every man must be made perfect in Christ.

As to Paul's experience of being caught up to the third heaven and into Paradise, he had kept this matter in his mind for fourteen years, and now he speaks of it. "I know a man in Christ, fourteen years ago (whether in the body I know not, or out of the body I know not, God knows;) such a one caught up to the third heaven. And I know such a man, (whether in the body or out of the body I know not, God knows;) that he was caught up into Paradise, and heard unspeakable things said which it is not allowed to man to utter. Of such a one I will boast, but of myself I will not boast, unless in my weaknesses".

Then he goes on to tell us how the Lord attended him so that this precious light and experience which he had in Paradise should be preserved and effective in the assembly treasury, for it comes down to us preserved by the Spirit. The 'making' matter, of course, is still going on, because it is said, "And that

I might not be exalted by the exceeding greatness of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn for the flesh, a messenger of Satan that he might buffet me, that I might not be exalted. For this I thrice besought the Lord that it might depart from me. And he said to me, My grace suffices thee; for my power is perfected in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather boast in my weaknesses, that the power of the Christ may dwell upon me. Wherefore I take pleasure in weaknesses, in insults, in necessities, in persecutions, in straits, for Christ: for when I am weak, then I am powerful".

It would seem that all this is required during the fourteen years since he had been up into Paradise, the making process went on. It opens up a wide subject as to the treasuries that David speaks of that we have by the Spirit of God, by the temple, in such a person as Mary the Lord's mother who was in the upper room, and in such a person as Paul himself; how things are to be kept in our souls as treasure. It is said by Luke that Mary the Lord's mother "kept all these things in her mind, pondering them in her heart" (Luke 2:19). Later we are told that she kept things relative to the Boy Jesus. As a figure it is said of Jacob that he kept the things that Joseph said as a young man; so that the treasury is to be filled with these things relative to Christ.

But Paul has something relative to Paradise that he has been keeping fourteen years, it is in the treasury. And so it is, as we are enriched in these matters and carrying them in our hearts we are qualified for our heavenly portion. When we get there, 'There no stranger-God shall meet thee'. (Hymn 76) Every servant has his own distinctiveness -- the secret, the name that no one knows but himself.

In David's regime we have doorkeepers and storekeepers; we should recognise the importance of doorkeepers and what comes in, and storekeepers,

what has come in as watched over and cared for as the dedicated things. We do not cast our pearls before swine.

Ques. What is the difference between Paradise and the third heaven?

Paradise means 'garden of delights, place of pleasure', whereas the third heaven indicates altitude clearly. Measurement denotes creature limitations. Paul must have seen things in Paradise that he never spoke of, they were too wonderful to speak of.

DEDICATION OF THE ALTAR AND OF THE WALL

Numbers 7:10 - 17; Nehemiah 12:27 - 43

J.T. I was thinking of the dedication of the wall in Nehemiah, and the dedication of the altar in Numbers. It will be observed that these scriptures include the important thought of princes in relation to the great things in mind. The first scripture is a type of the inauguration of the dispensation, and the second is a remnant period, but the princely thought is quite prominent in both. It is said, "princes shalt thou make them in all the earth" (Psalm 45:16), and I thought it would be appropriate to be drawn into the current of this thought, and the main subject, namely the dedication of the altar and the dedication of the wall. Numbers 7 contemplates the heavenly system set up, as it is said, "And it came to pass on the day that Moses had completed the setting up of the tabernacle, and had anointed it, and hallowed it, and all the furniture thereof and the altar and all its utensils, and had anointed them, and hallowed them, that the princes of Israel, the heads of their fathers' houses, the princes of the tribes, they that were over them that had been numbered, offered" (Numbers 7:1,2). Who they are is very plainly stated. They are active in relation to a heavenly system in the antitype; that is, among ourselves, and one thing to be noted is that each one had his day, according to verse 10: "And the princes presented the dedication-gift of the altar on the day that it was anointed; and the princes presented their offering before the altar". And in verse 11 it says, "each prince on his day". So that whilst there are twelve of them, and they act together, for there is one gift and one offering, we may say, yet each one is seen offering, seen acting.

A.N.W. Would you suggest for us the difference between anointing and hallowing and dedicating?

J.T. The anointing, of course, we all know alludes to the use of the oil as in Exodus 40. All the parts were anointed with oil, the altar and its utensils; then the hallowing accompanies the anointing, I would think, as a mental thought. The whole scene was mentally accepted; I mean, it is so regarded by those who have to do with it, involving the idea of holiness and separation. You had something to add to that?

A.N.W. "Father, thy name be hallowed" (Luke 11:2). It is held sacred in the mind. Then would the dedication be the feeling of the princes in regard to it?

J.T. Yes; it is devoted formally to certain purposes. The altar is devoted. That is the idea of dedication, use in the service of God. We might go into a building set up for religious purposes here on earth now, and think it was hallowed, but it can only be so by the state of the persons who were regarding it. That implies the Spirit; what Christians are. That power does not belong to unconverted people however religious they may be.

W.W.M. You spoke of the dedication of the altar in the beginning of this dispensation. Does that suggest the beginning of Acts?

J.T. Yes; things were taking form then, the Holy Spirit having come, confirming what we are saying, that you cannot have Christianity by mere natural, mental attitude or ceremony. It must involve the Spirit.

A.N.W. Verse 88 says, "This was the dedication-gift of the altar, after it had been anointed".

J.T. That confirms it. It was a very big affair, too. The dedication-gift is depicted in these verses beginning with verse 84, "Twelve silver dishes, twelve silver bowls, twelve cups of gold: each silver dish of a hundred and thirty shekels, and each bowl

seventy: all the silver of the vessels was two thousand four hundred shekels according to the shekel of the sanctuary; twelve golden cups full of incense, each cup of ten shekels, according to the shekel of the sanctuary: all the gold of the cups, a hundred and twenty shekels. All the cattle for the burnt-offering was: twelve bullocks, twelve rams, twelve yearling lambs and their oblation; and twelve bucks of the goats for a sin-offering. And all the cattle for the sacrifice of the peace-offering was: twenty-four bullocks, sixty rams, sixty he-goats, sixty yearling lambs". I think, viewing that antitypically, we can see what the force of these terms is, and that all imitations are just spurious or worse. The assumption of buildings and the like being hallowed is just false. There is no virtue in it at all.

C.A.M. Referring to early Acts, would you say this wealth was acquired by the twelve during the life of the Lord? Where would all this wealth have been accumulated?

J.T. That is a good inquiry. We are told in Genesis 15 that Israel would come out of Egypt with great wealth, which would allude to just what you say: what we get in our exercises in an early sense in company with the Lord. That is what the disciples acquired, but that period could not be what is described here typically. It was before the Spirit came. This passage contemplates the Spirit having come.

C.A.M. Yes; I noticed you said that. I thought when you said that it would be the Spirit making the wealth good. The altar was not very intelligently known by them until the end of the Lord's life.

J.T. The Lord stressed it as He drew near to the close. He stressed the idea of suffering. He made His soul an offering for sin.

W.F.K. What constitutes a prince? Is it one who has something to give to God?

J.T. It is just what our brother suggested. What the disciples were as in company with the Lord, and what Israel was in the type as it came out of Egypt. It came out with great property, great wealth.

W.F.K. Would Barnabas be one, a prince?

J.T. Just so; the twelve all had that character. The wealth had to be put together. It is viewed as one in this chapter.

W.F.K. Have you any thought as to why there are twelve?

J.T. The princes stand in relation to the system as representing intelligence and wealth. It is the heavenly system that we are in connection with. These men are called princes right through. They adorn and support the thing in this sense in a princely way, so that the whole divine system takes character in this sense by what they do. We are not impoverished persons. Christianity is set up in wealth.

G.V.D. Would the crowd of names in Acts 1 suggest something of princely wealth?

J.T. I think that is good. Names would indicate that. We are all living, all distinguishable. You will notice here that paragraphs are carefully pointed out, beginning with verse 10, referring to the first prince. He is spoken of at the beginning of this paragraph and at the end of it. "And he that presented his offering the first day was Nahshon the son of Amminadab, of the tribe of Judah". And then we are told in verse 17, "This was the offering of Nahshon the son of Amminadab". And so with every paragraph. Each prince is designated by his name, and his father's name and what he offered, so that he, on his day, is on everybody's mind. Each of them has a great place, and then they are all seen together and the volume of their offerings is all viewed as one.

F.S.C. Have you any thought as to why the order of the names is changed from chapter 1? They are all named one by one there, but the order is changed here.

J.T. It says, "The princes of Israel, the heads of their fathers' houses, the princes of the tribes, they that were over them that had been numbered, offered". What is the allusion you make to chapter 1? What is the first name mentioned in chapter 1?

F.S.C. Reuben.

J.T. That is because Reuben is the first-born. We begin here with Judah.

F.N.W. The order here corresponds with the order of the encampments in chapter 2.

J.T. That is right. It is a sovereign matter, whereas the other is evidently by birth just as the names on the shoulder-pieces and on the breastplate. So that we are in the presence of divine ordering and selection. The princes are all viewed in that light, which will be the eternal position.

C.A.M. In some sense these princes all seem to be equally wealthy, at least in the gift.

J.T. That is the wonderful thing, that it is so. I suppose it would be by arrangement, but it is to bring out in the antitype that each prince has his gift. There is no distinction except sovereignly, that they are sovereignly situated, hence Judah has the first place; but all the others are just as well to do as far as their gifts are concerned.

C.A.M. Would that have to do with what the prince is Godward, because when it comes to what a prince does in conflict there might be quite a distinction?

J.T. If he is left to himself, if it is an optional matter, which, of course, God recognises, too -- what you bring. God will recognise you in what you bring, as in 1 Corinthians, the gifts or collection; Paul made provision for what they would give and brought the first day of the week into it, and then in 2 Corinthians there is much enlargement on what was done, but here it is not that, as if God were to say, You are all to look alike and give alike. You have plenty to

do it with. Therefore, every prince -- take Nahshon -- he not only comes under the eye of heaven in what he is doing, but of all the congregation. It is a wonderful day, and this prince has every heart and mind for that day, so that he will be known for ever.

C.A.M. Sonship underlies it. In that sense we are all equal.

J.T. Quite so; sonship does underlie it. The principle was there before they left Egypt -- Israel is My son.

Ques. May I ask if this offering is tribal or household-wise -- the offering as offered by the princes?

J.T. It is the tribe. You will notice what is said. "The princes of Israel, the heads of their fathers' houses, the princes of the tribes". Of course, the household necessarily enters into the tribe, but the tribes are outstanding, so that it says, "And he that presented his offering the first day was Nahshon the son of Amminadab, of the tribe of Judah". It is a tribal thing, but the household necessarily enters into the tribe.

Ques. How does that stand in relation to the various cities or assemblies or localities?

J.T. I think that is what is in mind -- the idea of leadership prevailing everywhere in the assembly, so that Nahshon is a sort of leading man and he is before us a whole day, and we are reminded he belongs to the tribe of Judah, and it is on account of the sovereignty of God. It is not Reuben, but Judah. That is what we learn on that day. It is a twelve-day matter. They are all in it, I suppose. How long it took, I do not know, but it was a daily matter for each prince.

W.F.K. And then at the end the aggregate is taken up. Would that be assembly service?

J.T. It is to show how real the unity was; that their offerings were alike.

A.N.W. Does the precise similarity in what they

offered denote that in the princehood there is no rivalry?

J.T. That is what is meant. We are in the presence of the divine system which is an eternal thing, a heavenly thing, and God is parading His princes, the production of His own work. Each one is seen by himself and then their offerings are all seen as united as one.

J.T.Jr. Does the measure of the sanctuary coming in here show that the thing is all according to the divine requirement?

J.T. I think that is what is meant. What preceded it necessarily enters into this. Numbers is the tabernacle in the wilderness, but it is, nevertheless, a heavenly system. It is as real as if it were in heaven; but it is in the wilderness. It has the innate power of holding itself free from defilement. It is as heavenly in the wilderness as it is in heaven, but it requires more power down here to keep out the evil. That is why the princes are so prominent, because they have wealth enough to do that spiritually.

A.B.P. Would you suggest what is typified in the basons and the bowls and the offerings themselves? There is no moral issue to be settled here. It seems a sort of abstract setting.

J.T. Apparently they are all ready. It must have been either by corporate agreement or by great spiritual unity that they are all alike. I would think that in eternity it would appear that we are all alike, because we are constituted alike, not by formal agreement. It is because of what we are. It would bring out the uniformity of God's work, without any formal agreement on the part of those who are the subjects of it.

C.A.M. I was struck by the reference you made to Psalm 45:16 "Princes shalt thou make them in all the earth". The next verse says, "Therefore shall

the peoples praise thee for ever and ever". That is as near eternity as can be.

J.T. Just so; the time of merging comes in; the flesh and blood period comes in, and then what it is as merged in its final relation. It is the outcome of the perfect work of God, all done on the principle of pattern.

F.N.W. Does the special vow of the Nazarite come into this?

J.T. Very likely. The teaching is certainly cumulative, and this chapter must be the outcome of the previous one, even as to the numbering and as to the position of the princes. It must work out from the facts presented in the earlier part of the book, so that the work of God is magnified. "What hath God wrought?" (Numbers 23:23). God is parading this matter of His princes; they are all brought forward and it is made sure that the one mentioned in each is named at the end of it, and it is really his work; it is his product. Why is it that he had the same as the others? That is left open. That has to work out in the work of God. We do not agree with one another as to how we are to appear eternally. It is God's doing. But we agree with one another on general principles; we love one another.

J.T.Jr. Would this be what Balaam saw? There was no iniquity in Jacob or Israel.

J.T. Just so. He saw them dwelling in tents. It was what he saw, the individual dwellings -- that it was a question of the work of God in each, but they were all in one set of tents.

A.B.P. If I understood what you had in mind, what is given represents the greatness of the work of God in the person, but the offerings represent a personal appreciation of the work of Christ, not as related to any particular moral issue but what it was in its own greatness.

J.T. I would say that, so that each prince would

have the same apprehension of any given phase of Christ. They all had the same opportunity. They met with Him. "The men who have assembled with us all the time in which the Lord Jesus came in and went out among us" (Acts 1:21). So that they all had the same opportunities, and I believe God is saying they did not have a special personal understanding with each other that they were to have the same mind about the Lord, but in result it was so. It was not their design, but it was God's design, so that the product is here.

A.P.T. Regimentation seems to be the order of the day now. I was wondering if this chapter indicates the divine way. Would that be right?

J.T. Tell us more, please.

A.P.T. I was only struck with the suggestion that we will all be like Christ. It will be as a result of God's work in us, not in a regimental way that men have in their minds, but it will be all God's sovereignty. I do not know how to express it, but these twelve men here were alike in everything they did, but it evidently had divine approval.

J.T. That is what is meant in the antitype. However much or little you have taken in of Christ, you have exactly the same opportunities as others, and God is the Potter, so to speak. He is the great Former of all, and He has a scheme in His mind. He is going to make that scheme work out through your exercises, so that His pattern is perfect at the end, because it is said of Christ that we are to be conformed to His image. There is a real change to His image, and He is to be the Firstborn among many brethren. They are all made according to pattern. The greatness of God is seen in the fact that He works out His pattern through your exercises and mine. He reaches His end. I believe that is the parade here. It is a field day. "What hath God

wrought!" We get that later, but these princes excel as examples of His workmanship.

A.C. This chapter speaks largely of the dignity of the princes. Levites are often mentioned, but is there any distinction between what is levitical and princely?

J.T. The levitical part is in the first paragraph. You will notice that, the giving of the princes -- of waggons and bullocks. They did not specify what they were to be used for, but it says "they presented them before the tabernacle. And Jehovah spoke to Moses, saying, Take it of them, and they shall be for the performance of the service of the tent of meeting, and thou shalt give them unto the Levites, to each according to his service. And Moses took the waggons and the oxen, and gave them to the Levites. Two waggons and four oxen he gave to the sons of Gershon, according to their service; and four waggons and eight oxen he gave to the sons of Merari, according to their service, -- under the hand of Ithamar the son of Aaron the priest. But unto the sons of Kohath he gave none, for the service of the sanctuary was upon them: they bore what they carried upon the shoulder" (verses 3 - 9). That is all a settled matter by itself before we come to verse 10. It is a question of levitical service and how God is providing for them according to the work. The princes' offerings fitted exactly with that. God is taking on the princes' gift of oxen and waggons for His priests to use.

A.C. There is a merging, and the thing in itself is of such unique dignity that when it comes to the place the princes have in the chapter there is a climax reached.

J.T. The waggons and the oxen did not have to be held in reserve until some need arose. Heaven immediately specifies their use, showing the gift of the princes was in accord with the mind of heaven, meaning it was all in love. Everything we have is

useful and useable and should not be held in reserve.

J.A.P. Are all saints looked at as princes? Psalm 113:7,8 says, "He raiseth up the poor out of the dust; from the dunghill he lifteth up the needy, to set him among nobles, among the nobles of his people". We have been raised from the dunghill.

J.T. That is the thought. They are looked at here as in the heavenly system to bring out what God has wrought. The dunghill will all have gone out of sight when we enter into heavenly places. Like Peter, a fisherman, see what God has made out of him.

R.W.S. "Being seen by them during forty days" (Acts 1:3). Would the impressions gathered up then, seeing Him, be co-ordinated by the Holy Spirit coming down?

J.T. I think so. It was to confirm the pattern. The Lord coming in in the forty days would be a highly finishing process. That is, it was Himself in a spiritual sense, so that if He took five hundred brethren, He would make them what they had never been before in that appearing. They would be impressed all at the same time by what Christ is, as you might say -- glorious. So that it is into "the same image from glory to glory" (2 Corinthians 3:18).

R.W.S. I was interested in your stressing the point of the Holy Spirit. Sometimes we speak about the way the disciples are spoken of in the Scriptures toward the end, not very favourably, as in Luke, and I wondered if after the impression of the forty days, the Spirit would take that on and make them princes.

J.T. I think He would. The matter is all one. We might say the Lord made the twelve apostles while He was down here, but they really are included in the gifts He received above. "He that descended is the same who has also ascended up above all the heavens, that he might fill all things; and he has given

some apostles, and some prophets" (Ephesians 4:10,11). He received as Man gifts for men, all in relation to men. Now you cannot say the twelve were not included, and, of course, historically, they would gather what the heavenly part is by the Spirit having come, and even by the appearances of the Lord during the forty days, but it is all one thing. Therefore, the twelve would be included in the list alluded to in Ephesians 4:11, "And he has given some apostles, and some prophets, and some evangelists, and some shepherds and teachers, for the perfecting of the saints; with a view to the work of the ministry, with a view to the edifying of the body of Christ; until we all arrive ..." It is all one thing. It took years to do it, but it is all one thing. It is all a heavenly matter. They have all come out of heaven. Christianity has come out of heaven and is going back into heaven. I believe that enters into this chapter.

J.T.Jr. In regard to our unity which you were speaking about, we have that thought in Ephesians 4:3: "using diligence to keep the unity of the Spirit in the uniting bond of peace". It is a secret matter, the working out of unity in the princes. There is no jealousy or ill feeling, but love is behind the whole matter.

J.T. That is the way to get at it, and the divine pattern is there, and it will be worked out. There will be no discrepancy whatever.

A.P.T. In the selection of one to take Judas' place, evidently there was no discrepancy with him.

J.T. Apparently not. He fitted in, but they were all immersed in the heavenly pattern. It is not simply what they learned here below, but the effect of the heavenly hue being put on them. So that they are all from the same source.

A.N.W. While Matthew and John accompanied

the Lord in His life of flesh and blood, they evidently received their ministry at Pentecost.

J.T. Really they all did. Their real ministry was after the Spirit came down. Peter was a leader. "First Peter". He shows how perfect He was in His work. The Lord went up, we are told, far above all the heavens. We are not told that in Acts. It is Paul who tells us that to bring out what this matter is; this matter of gift and princes, that it is not simply what they acquired in the company of Christ here below. They come out of heaven. The Holy Spirit brings the whole matter down, and they are immersed in it.

C.A.M. That heavenly light in Paul's soul lights up that quotation from the Psalms about His having gone up there as Man, there for men, and when that heavenly light leaves its height all the whole scheme opens up with glory.

J.T. Just so, so that the allusion to heaven in Acts enters into all this. First, the sound from heaven, and the Spirit coming out in power, breathing, and then the light from heaven, and then the voice from heaven. All that is in keeping with what we are saying. The heavenly thing embraced all that was at Pentecost. Paul came in later, but it is the same matter. He mentioned them all together in 1 Corinthians 15. He came in last himself, he says, but it is all the same thing. The idea of rivalry and ambition being shut out -- even although it may be there, God will wear it down so that it will never come into the pattern. It would mar the pattern. Someone was writing the other day that the Lord is taking on fresh workmen, as if the work was enlarging. But He is going to unify all that He is doing, so that the model is right.

A.B.P. The large place that is given to the peace-offering has some relation to that.

J.T. I would think that. The first thing mentioned

after the full vessels is, "one young bullock, one ram, one yearling lamb, for a burnt-offering"; the second is, "one buck of the goats for a sin-offering"; and the third is, "and for a sacrifice of peace-offering, two oxen, five rams, five he-goats, five yearling lambs". That, I think, would bring out the fellowship side. Now, John says, "that which we have seen and heard we report to you, that ye also may have fellowship with us; and our fellowship is indeed with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ" (1 John 1:3). Well, now, I think these peace-offerings mean -- there was a lot of that at the beginning, not only the idea of the burnt-offering, and the sin-offering, but this peace-offering. The brethren were all together, we are told; first in one place, and then they were all together, in principle. The end of Acts 2 shows they were all together, which would mean these peace-offerings, and God having part in it. So that we are all getting together, and getting to be like one another. You do not want to have anything very different from others if you love them. You want to be like them and they like you, and all like Christ and all like God. It is a unifying idea all the way through.

J.T.Jr. I suppose when Paul went up to Jerusalem and spent fifteen days with Peter that was what was in mind.

J.T. He would see what Peter thought and would take it on. It is that sort of thing all the time, and these meetings are intended for that in our case, that we should be like each other.

C.A.M. Before we go to heaven there will be that kind of union among the saints all over the world.

J.T. That is what the Lord is aiming at, and the pressure abroad and the discipline we are going through, specific things, are all to that end. There is a lot of elimination needed and it is going on. It is a making process.

J.A.P. It is a remarkable thing that the first division was over an altar. The tribes of Reuben and Gad built an altar of grand appearance which was over against the other altar. It really divided the brethren.

J.T. Do you mean it was a partisan thing?

J.A.P. If we are all looking at one altar, we will be right.

J.T. Therefore the dimensions are specifically given. There is so much made here of the dedication of the altar. It is the place we gather and where we sacrifice.

A.B.P. There was no re-dedication of the altar. In the book of Ezra when it was set on its base it functioned immediately without any re-dedication. That would be in line with the unity of the matter, the same thing going through. It is not re-established.

J.T. Yes, indeed.

J.H. In John 17:23 the Lord says, "That they may be perfected into one", would that be the thought of unity? "That the world may know that thou hast sent me".

J.T. Just so. John 17 enters into all this most beautifully, and especially the glories there. The glories that the Lord manifests, the one that He is going to enter into, that He had been in before, and the one that is being given Him, and the one that He is giving others Himself. Glories are like degrees, but affecting us, unifying us, similarising us, that we rejoice in others' glory.

F.N.W. The testimony went out by the kings of Midian, "As thou art, so were they; each one resembled the sons of a king" (Judges 8:18). There was similarity on princely lines.

J.T. That is good.

F.S.C. Do you think the vessels refer to Christ down here?

J.T. They are different sizes, one of different

metal even, so that they deserve very special consideration as to what they allude to. It is not that silver is of any less value than gold here. They are metals of precious importance, silver alluding to a certain feature such as redemption, and gold to what is of God, but they are both really alike. Silver and gold are of the same value. They must allude to what there was in relation to these princes -- what an apprehension each had of each vessel; so that the likeness of each, the correspondence between them would be derived from all they had inwardly as vessels. Vessels must denote what was in the offerers' mind. The mind has a great deal to do with all this in the antitype. It is what is working in our minds; the ideas we have.

W.W.M. Would you say we have Mary of Bethany brought in at the end of the Lord's pathway in John, to show what this offering really was? She had it in her heart. She would carry the feelings of what would correspond with the princes.

J.T. There is no box mentioned. She was the box. I believe that is the idea. There is a box mentioned in the other gospels, but not in John, and yet she kept it, so that she must have had power to keep out corruption; "love our Lord Jesus Christ in incorruption" (Ephesians 6:24). Judas was there. He is over against her, very opposed to a vessel containing anything that referred to Christ.

T.E.H. Would you help me in relation to Peter and John? Peter said, "Look on us" (Acts 3:4). Is that the ornamental side of the truth in the person?

J.T. I would think that. There is something there to be looked at. It fits into what we are saying. They were in the hands, of course, of Christ, but they were heavenly. The heavenly side is not so much stressed until Paul comes, but it was there, and it was there in Peter and John.

A.B.P. We are told in Acts 2:47 that the Lord

added "those that were to be saved". But when we come to Paul he was an elect vessel (Acts 9:15). It is a vessel and in view of apostleship.

J.T. Just so. One would find that in Paul. For instance he says, "Known and read of all men" (2 Corinthians 3:2). What was that? It was what was in him. It was readable in him. It was in him, the place the Corinthians had in his heart. That is the sort of thing, what a vessel has, whether there is love for God or for Christ, or the Spirit, or for the brethren.

F.S.C. It says they were both "full of fine flour mingled with oil for an oblation".

J.T. That would be Christ as He was anointed here, but, I would say, inclusive of what He is above, because He received from the Father above, and shed forth the Holy Spirit. It is Christ's humanity and the power of His Spirit. Whether we apprehend that, is a question, because His life was taken from the earth. That is a thought that has to be understood, and whether you can carry that sort of thing in your vessel -- a life that was unique. There never was any like it and there never will be any like it. It is the uniqueness of Christ as a Man down here. It is the meat-offering, but it is more than that. It is unique in that there was none like it before and there never will be any like it. Whereas what He is now in heaven, we will all be like Him. We are made like Him. He is the Model for us all. It is not after the pattern of what He was here below in the mere personal sense; it is what He is up there. "We know that if it is manifested we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is" (1 John 3:2).

R.D.G. "Even as he is, we also are in this world" (1 John 4:17).

J.T. It is not what He was down here. It is what He is, so that He is coming to change our bodies of humiliation and make them like His body of glory. That is the thing to have before us. That is not what

He was down here. It is what He is up there.

A.P.T. "He receives of mine and shall announce it to you" (John 16:15). Is that what He is now?

J.T. It is what He is now up there. There was a perfect knowledge when the Spirit came down of what the Lord was there and the position He held up there. It is a heavenly Christ we are dealing with. It is not what He was, but what He is.

J.H. The eunuch is linked up with a heavenly man. Philip "announced the glad tidings of Jesus to him" (Acts 8:35).

J.T. He could not have told you, perhaps, as you could tell us now, but that was the truth.

F.N.W. How far does the thought of redemption enter into our services in heaven eternally?

J.T. That is a matter to be considered, too. People often think, Well, we will always be telling what He has done for us, and how different we are to what we used to be, but there will be nothing of that. What we may say in regard to remembrance will come out in the judgment-seat of Christ, but after that it is what we are according to divine counsel. It is new creation. That is the eternal state of things.

A.N.W. "In whom we have redemption". It is there; (Ephesians 1:7).

J.T. How far that will be carried is a question, but I am certain that most Christians think that will be our theme. Whereas, the eternal position goes beyond that, what God had in His mind before the world was.

A.P.T. The apostle puts it in Ephesians 1, just to make the picture complete, "in whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of offences". It is not so much to dwell on that side.

J.T. That comes in after verse 5 of Ephesians 1. If you look at it you will see he is dealing with counsel first, and then redemption is brought in.

A.N.W. Would you say that redemption enters into the foundation of the eternal realm?

J.T. It does while we are in time; while there is opposition. They overcame by the blood of the Lamb. All that is most essential, but whether there is not something beyond that when all that is settled is a question.

A.P.T. Ephesians 1:3 - 6 says, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies in Christ; according as he has chosen us in him before the world's foundation, that we should be holy and blameless before him in love; having marked us out beforehand for adoption through Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he has taken us into favour in the Beloved".

J.T. That is the fixed state of things. Redemption comes in after that. In verse 7 it says, "in whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of offences, according to the riches of his grace; which he has caused to abound towards us in all wisdom and intelligence". That is the thought; that redemption will be always in evidence while it is needed, but there is such a thing as new creation, and that is what we are looking on to -- a new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

C.A.M. The expression you have used as to a dip into time helps. It is not many of us that know much about the idea of One that was before the dip into time, in connection with the saints.

J.T. We must not assume for a moment that God started in new plans after sin came in and was settled. He is carrying out His first plans all the time. They were interfered with.

A.N.W. Being here in the place of favour you can dismiss it?

J.T. That requires great attention and care lest

you might belittle the foundational side of the position, the work of Christ, but we must make room for new creation.

Now, as regards Nehemiah we have no time now. It was only just to link up the idea of fellowship in the walls, and how the princes were there again in remnant times. The idea continues in the two choirs, that they are jubilant in spite of the depression there must have been. They are jubilant. Those choirs are all singing and the singing was heard afar off, we are told in verse 43, "And that day they offered great sacrifices, and rejoiced for God had made them rejoice with great joy; and also the women and the children rejoiced. And the joy of Jerusalem was heard even afar off". It is to show what remnant times can be.

W.F.K. What have you to say about the dedication of the wall?

J.T. That is fellowship. We are in it, but we rejoice in it, and it is so strong you can walk on it and sing on it -- two choirs.

C.A.M. What the assembly has today shows that it is not worn out. Time has not had a wearing effect on it.

J.T. Some of us were saying the other day that every church had its day as well as every prince. Each has its day. The book of Revelation gives us seven assemblies and I believe Philadelphia would indicate there was nothing worn out at all. The same ideas are there. The Lord contemplates something He has pleasure in and that He loves. It is having its day now.

R.W.S. Does that link on with the musical instruments in verse 36? "With the musical instruments of David the man of God; and Ezra the scribe before them".

J.T. These men were equal. Ezra was equal to any priest. The quality was there. He was leader

of the first choir. Nehemiah was hardly officially a priest, but he was a great spiritual man, a great prince, and he had to do with the second choir, but, he says, "after them". Ezra was before but he was after, showing he was a humble sort of man, but he was filling the thing out.

J.T.Jr. You need both of these servants: those who go on before, the scribe in the word of God, and those who are behind and look after the saints.

J.T. Just so; a man that is content to be that, to come in behind.

A.B.P. That helps us to understand that if a man says things about himself it is not because of his ego.

J.T. Quite so. He was a great man not in the world or government, but a great man spiritually. See what he is doing; he is in the whole matter, and Ezra has the official place as a priest, a thoroughly pedigreed priest and leader. He is ornamenting the whole position. It is not so great as it was in Aaron s day in the quality and character of it, but in Nehemiah you have a great man. He is not exactly an official, but he is coming in and filling the thing out. So that it is a wonderfully good time, and you may say he is in it.

Ques. The princes give colour to the occasion?

J.T. That is the idea. It is the same idea in Numbers 7.

Rem. In John 11:1 it says "the village of Mary and Martha her sister". They gave colour to the place.

J.T. Just so; they gave character to the place and all that happened. Well, you see here the musical instruments of David, the man of God, and there are people who can use these instruments, which means they are people like David or Asaph, and so it is now. It is our day. It is Philadelphia's day. Every church has its day in Revelation. Well, how

is our day shining? What is there in it? Does it answer to the mind of God?

J.A.P. Is there a difference in the result of the two dedications? When the princes offered in Numbers 7, God spoke to Moses from off the mercy-seat, but here the joy is partly as the result of the dedication.

J.T. That comes in after the offering of the twelve princes. Well, what is the difference? Each is a man like Ezra, who is in this singing matter. He is an instructed man. He is like a scribe, instructed in the kingdom of the heavens. He brings out of his treasures things new and old. Ezra is able to do that and to join in the song and lead in it. Why should we not have a good time like that in these times? God made them rejoice. God can do that if we let Him. He will make the thing full. The noise was heard afar off. It does not say it was heard in heaven, but no doubt it was. It was heard by others.

J.T.Jr. They had to stand still in the prison gate. Every local meeting has its prison gate. You stand still there and think of them.

J.T. Quite so.

READINGS ON THE BOOK OF ESTHER (1)

Esther 1:1 - 22; Esther 2:15 - 23

J.T. There are certain relations between this book and the book of Job which may appear as we proceed. Now it may be stated that the principle of the taking away of the first and the establishing of the second runs through the book. It is in mind that we shall get instruction bearing on present conditions from this book, how God acts for His people without showing Himself, even acting for them when there are circumstances which He cannot approve. Indeed the book throughout contemplates such circumstances. Thus it has a bearing in relation to God's people whoever they are and wherever they are, not in relations suitable to the law, or His principles, or His system, so that His name is not mentioned in the book, nor is there prayer mentioned. Yet God is seen in it and promoting His people, protecting them, honouring them, not reaching His end as yet but obviously this is in mind. His people are being prepared now for His end in which they would be identified with Him and seen openly as such, honoured as such. In the meanwhile we have to move on in a world that knows us not and with little or no recognition such as Pentecost introduces, but yet God is working and in connection with His own principles -- that is to say, setting aside the first and establishing the second. Only now it is not in connection with one man as in Job, but it is in connection with humanity. In Job it is with one family but here it is a great monarch, a great king and in it shines through certain features which are basic and which really have part in God's own system which will appear in the millennium. So that in order to come into this it is clear that we have to learn to take on

the principles that are set out in the setting aside of the first, that we may learn to set aside the first in ourselves and in connection with the divine system see that we gradually come into what is second. Not simply now in one family as in Job, but in one person who is a type of the assembly or of Israel. It is thought that the most of this session could be devoted to the consideration of what is symbolic in the king Ahasuerus -- his kingdom is a great and glorious affair, very extensive and resourceful and all under one head.

C.H.H. Is the thought of the book of Esther -- suggesting the thought of a star -- indicating what is heavenly supplanting what is earthly?

J.T. Well that is good. The meaning of the word 'Esther' signifies star. The stars have a great place throughout Scripture. In the beginning the morning stars sang together -- they were there. "Where wast thou when I founded the earth? ... When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" (Job 38:4 - 7). So that there is no doubt something in that. Then in Genesis 1:16, "And God made the two great lights ... and the stars". That is He made them as we see them -- the sun, the moon and the stars, conveying as Joseph's dream indicates, the family thought -- the sun, moon and eleven stars.

L.E.S. Would Hosea fit in with what you have suggested? "I will go away, I will return to my place, till they acknowledge their trespass, and seek my face; in their affliction they will seek me early" (Hosea 5:15). And then, "We shall know, -- we shall follow on to know Jehovah: his going forth is assured as the morning dawn; and he will come unto us as the rain, as the latter rain which watereth the earth" (Hosea 6:3).

J.T. "I will go away" -- would certainly be suggested. God is not in evidence. But certain other

things, personages, are in evidence. God sets up the Gentile monarchies when He hides His face from the house of Jacob. He is not ashamed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, not ashamed to be called their God, but here God is hiding His face -- He is not in evidence at all save in the sense that we can see, by the Spirit of God in our dispensation, He is in the position, but acting in a hidden way.

J.D. Is it your thought that the principles that obtain in Job in regard of Job and his family are also seen in connection with the monarchies?

J.T. That is the thought. The monarchies have a time to show themselves. We get the principle in Numbers 7, every man in his day. I believe every monarchy has had its day. God allowed them to parade this glory and power to see what they would do. And nothing more has been accomplished through the four monarchies than through Israel. It has come out. The monarchies have not accomplished divine thoughts any more than Israel. Government in the hands of the Gentile monarchies has done no better than Israel and is not to be compared with government as under David and Solomon. So there is the necessity for the setting aside of the first whether in our own souls or in the monarchies.

J.D. Would Daniel's prophecy regarding the monarchies show it?

J.T. Nebuchadnezzar had a great opportunity -- "Thou art this head of gold" (Daniel 2:38). That is what he was as head of the system. It had great advantages, but it goes right on to disaster. The first comes out as God hides His face from the house of Jacob and takes nations up. Hundreds of our brethren are directly under their power, in fact this more or less applies to all of us. Governments have more authority in war than in peace. We are made to feel the pressure. And I think all this appears in this book as over against humanity in the book of

Job. Great splendour, glory and power and then this woman is in it. That is where we are to learn to take account of the first as its place is taken by the second. There must be something in these monarchies and kingdoms in a feminine sense. The assembly is the divine idea. God intends the assembly to bring out the feminine thought and she is coming out in this way in the millennium. But what is there now in this relation with the monarchies today? The Church of England is the spouse of the State. It would come out in the Roman Empire, too -- the church's place in relation to the empire. And what is coming out here -- we have to see and understand what this feminine idea in relation to the four monarchies means, and see how the assembly in measure is seen in connection with God in Esther. Take Vashti; she made her feast in the royal house which belonged to king Ahasuerus. She made her feast in his territory.

J.D. But then she refuses to consider the king at all, would that be the point brought out here?

J.T. The whole system has broken down. There has been plenty of opportunity for the Gentile monarchies to show what rule according to God ought to be. The principle of the rule of man over woman begins in the first of Genesis. It failed in Job and his wife and failed in Ahasuerus and his wife.

C.H.H. The act of the church becoming the spouse of the kingdoms would correspond with Babylon. It is displaced from its heavenly setting -- cast down to earth.

J.T. She says, "I sit a queen, and I am not a widow" (Revelation 18:7). There is the complete breakdown in this passage in relation to the monarchies.

F.R. Would Vashti represent the accredited religion of the world?

J.T. Yes. The feminine thought alluding to the sympathies, feelings, kindnesses of humanity on the

earth. Where can we find it today? Take this country, especially in the East where the Roman Catholic church has the greatest power. What an influence, is it not sinister?

L.E.S. Ezra comes up from Babylon four years after this. Is there a link between Ezra and Esther?

J.T. It is the priestly side in Ezra and Nehemiah. Nehemiah did great things. You may say, How can we do in these circumstances? Nehemiah is what one man can do. Ezra brings the priest into view. It is instructive. We have priesthood in our little meetings; then we have care meetings, too, which would be representative of the authority of the monarchies. Matthew contemplates the authority of God in the assembly. Nehemiah is in relation to the king -- it is a responsible matter whereas Ezra is the spiritual side. I think both these things combine in relation to the influence of the brethren throughout the world -- the idea of the government of the assembly and priestly service Godward and manward. This book, however, is not Ezra or Nehemiah but contemplates a wide circle of things -- takes in Christians wherever they may be found, those not openly identified with the church but taking account of God's people in the Church of England or wherever they are.

P.B. We get in this book then what stands in the public eye.

J.T. You see that. But you see qualities that show that God is in this. God is not identifying Himself with them in their circumstances. No more is He identifying Himself with Esther, yet qualities were there. In the second chapter you find beautiful qualities there and that in the king's house, not in the temple of God.

R.H. Would the thought in Revelation of the mystery of God correspond with Esther?

J.T. Yes. That comes out in Revelation 10

where the Lord is seen with His right foot on the sea and His left on the land. Mystery is mystery and so Rome is mystery -- mystery written upon her. And this book is to show how God carries on mysteriously and yet effectually. Not one Christian in Christendom is forgotten of God.

J.D. God is set aside and refused by the ecclesiastical world, and although Christians walk in that, the door is kept open to them to walk in the truth.

L.E.S. And so the service would be filled out in the spirit of suffering in Esther and Mordecai.

J.T. Yes, we see that in chapters 3 and 4 -- the details of the evil scheme which involved even Ahasuerus, the king against Mordecai the Jew.

C.C.H. Although God has for the moment set Israel aside yet He is considering Esther -- giving her favour in the eyes of the king.

J.T. No doubt we shall get much out of this book on those lines. It shows what God can be to us, yet hiding His face from us, not identifying Himself with us openly. The counterpart of this book is certainly Ezra and Nehemiah.

J.D. How far does what is seen in Esther fit in with the suffering people at the present moment?

J.T. Well, His people are still under His care. The Lord speaks of a very humbling thing in Luke 21:20,21, "But when ye see Jerusalem encompassed with armies ... flee to the mountains". There was never anything like that earlier. In the times of Stephen the apostles had not left Jerusalem, but the Lord says, "when ye see Jerusalem encompassed with armies ... flee to the mountains". You cannot conceive of Christianity as it was at Pentecost and the saints fleeing -- but the Lord tells them to do that. We have to be prepared to go that way, when we see Jerusalem encompassed with armies. But some may say, But vengeance does not enter into this dispensation. But then in regard of Jerusalem God has

given the kingdom to another -- Jerusalem is destroyed and the Jews have escaped into the nations.

J.D. Does the book of Esther teach us that God is overruling for every Christian today? Dispensationally Esther comes after the church is raptured.

J.T. There is something in those systems which God is working in relation to -- God is hiding His face from the systems. We cannot be identified with the Romish or Anglican system or others. We cannot identify ourselves with such but we do know that He is looking after His people in them. So we have Esther and Mordecai. Why are not Esther and Mordecai going to Jerusalem? They did not go. God has them there where they are bringing out a great principle for us as well as for those of a later date. This book is a great parable!

D.R. Is the removal of the first then seen in Vashti and Haman and the establishing of the second in Esther and Mordecai?

J.T. It is worked out in that way and yet God is not owning them. There must be something in this!

J.F. "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing" (Proverbs 25:2).

J.T. "But the glory of kings is to search out a thing". God is concealing certain things.

J.D. The working of things out in various conditions make for what He is after. He would have us work the principle out.

J.T. It is a kingly thing and goes on with God concealing things. What an atmosphere for searching things out we are in. Take the book of Esther, why not search it out? It is kings who search things out.

R.H. Is the thought of vengeance today in relation to Christendom not in relation to Israel?

J.T. The mystery of iniquity already works and the spiritual form judgments about it, it is only awaiting final execution. And so in the epistle to the Thessalonian assembly, a precious assembly to

heaven, "The assembly of Thessalonians in God the Father" -- precious to the Father, they are told, "To you that are troubled repose with us" They were troubled. They thought the day of the Lord had come. "At the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven, with the angels of his power, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who know not God, and those who do not obey the glad tidings of our Lord Jesus Christ" (2 Thessalonians 1:7,8). The reference is to the present time -- the thing is awaiting fulness -- but then this thought of rest in the judgment arrived at. The idea of vengeance enters into this dispensation.

L.E.S. "For the time of having the judgment begin from the house of God is come" (1 Peter 4:17).

J.T. Peter has it in mind in his second epistle, too, and so has Jude. The idea of vengeance is in the hearts of the brethren -- they are not executors of the judgment but in Revelation 18:20 we are told -- "God has judged your judgment upon her".

C.C.H. We have the idea in the beginning of the dispensation in Ananias and Sapphira who were inside, so to speak, and then on the outside in regard of Herod.

J.T. He was eaten of worms.

J.D. As things proceed in the ways of God they are all part of a plan.

J.T. Well, take the Romish system now, it is very anxious to side with what is right publicly, so is Russia. How long for we cannot say. But then their history is not cancelled. It is just that God is pleased to use them for the time being. God prospers Babylon and returns to destroy her. Still we know it is there. And we are reading everything that transpires in the light of the end. The book of Revelation gives us the detail of how everything is completed in connection with the end. We have part in it. We come out of heaven with the Lord Jesus.

P.B. God's people are being taken care of by Him whether in the Romish system or in the Church of England. The government of Great Britain preserves the truth of Christianity and outwardly honours the name of God and of the Lord and are thus preserved in relation to His people. Would Esther 1:6, "White, green, and blue hangings, etc". be God preserving His name in relation to monarchies?

J.T. Well, that is worth looking into. These things are important and show what an immense empire it was. God gives the second monarchy its place as is seen here. This is all God's property but He is allowing the Gentile monarchies to use it. You are struck with the grandeur. First the extent of the kingdom. "That is, the Ahasuerus that reigned from India even to Ethiopia, over a hundred and twenty-seven provinces". And then it goes on, "In those days, when the king Ahasuerus sat on the throne of his kingdom, which was in Shushan the fortress, in the third year of his reign, he made a feast to all his princes and his servants; the power of Persia and Media, the nobles and the princes of the provinces being before him; when he showed the glorious wealth of his kingdom and the splendid magnificence of his grandeur many days, a hundred and eighty days". The Spirit of God writes this matter in detail. It is a question of the resources of this world, what God has given to the Gentile monarchies and God did not give it to them without giving them the power to make use of it. This book shows the co-ordination in grandeur and how there is such a heart in the monarch to make a good time for his servants for a hundred and eighty days. Is there not something in this hidden from view? How much is made possible to the four monarchies. This is the great system of government that God has ordained -- the extent of it and all divinely ordained! "And when these days were expired, the king made a feast to all the people that

were present in Shushan the fortress, both to great and small, seven days, in the court of the garden of the king's palace". It is a capital matter now, those present in Shushan the fortress. What grandeur, power and refinement! What will the heavenly city be if such is the earthly? But still God has a great day in these monarchies. He has given them these resources and they are making the most of them. So we have here, "White, green, and blue hangings were fastened with cords of byssus and purple to silver rings and pillars of white marble; couches of gold and silver lay upon a pavement of red and white marble, and alabaster, and black marble. And they gave drink in vessels of gold (the vessels being diverse one from another), and royal wine in abundance, according to the king's bounty. And the drinking was, according to commandment, without constraint; for so the king had appointed to all the magnates of his house, that they should do according to every man's pleasure". What a scene that is! And this all from God. God has given the Gentile monarchies such resources and such skill as to co-ordinate all this. What a king is Ahasuerus! He is not condemned but is here as king to bring out feminine conditions. That is the point. How do the feminine conditions here correspond to Genesis 1? God has never lost sight of that. He has in mind humanity in relation to the bearing of the male and female. Vashti is the female side of all this. "Also the queen Vashti made a feast for the women of the royal house which belonged to king Ahasuerus". That is, she has no rights of her own. It is the male side. Not democracy -- it is the grandeur of the monarchies under God in their place on earth.

L.E.S. Is the thought carried through of the head of fine gold in Daniel?

J.T. There is something of a deterioration but the principle remains more or less. This begins with

Adam and Eve, "Male and female created he them" (Genesis 1:27). The point is to expose what is there. The king was one of the worst men alive we learn from history, and you may say that Vashti did nothing much out of the way in refusing to obey his command but the point is to bring out the female side, what it is in relation to the masculine, to bring out the feminine side not only in relation to the assembly but in humanity. It must show itself -- in Rome or in Greece or here in the Medo-Persian empire.

A.P. Man living to himself in revelry only brings out rebellion in the feminine.

J.T. In Belshazzar's time the queen mother comes into evidence. It was a scene of debauchery -- drinking with a thousand of his lords. The exposure of Belshazzar thus is allowed to bring out the feminine side -- what it was. The queen-mother is there. She was not in the time of debauchery, she came in when the fingers were seen on the wall. She was in her right place. She says to her grandson, or whatever relation he was, There is a man in your kingdom. It is the idea of the feminine, coming in to the man and revealing the mind of God.

C.C.H. Christ is head of every man -- that is basic. God has given resources to the assembly as she recognises headship. It is a principle not generally recognised.

J.T. The assembly is the setting forth of the final thought of God. But then God has not lost sight of man and woman in humanity -- what part each plays in his place, thus bringing out what is seen in the monarchies, what part the woman has in it.

L.E.S. Even Haman's wife speaks what is right.

J.T. She tells Haman, If the Jew is making headway, you are going to fall before him. What is seen here is the whole idea of womanhood in the Gentile monarchies. Then Memucan makes his little speech: "The queen Vashti has not done wrong to the king

only, but also to all the princes, and to all the peoples that are in all the provinces of the king Ahasuerus. For the act of the queen will come abroad to all women, so as to render their husbands contemptible in their eyes, when they shall say, The king Ahasuerus commanded the queen Vashti to be brought in before him, and she came not". The whole feminine side is in mind. God has never let it out of His mind. It applies not simply to every sister but to every woman.

J.D. That is interesting, as speaking of the service of the woman. Pilate's wife says, Have thou nothing to do with that righteous man. God uses the feminine side there.

J.T. She is fully in accord with the book -- Have nothing to do with that righteous man -- the subject of Matthew -- she has some idea of it.

J.D. God gives women a marvellous part in the working out of His thoughts as they maintain their place.

J.T. In Acts 1:14 we have the women mentioned. "These gave themselves all with one accord to continual prayer, with several women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren". Mary -- blessed among women -- a great place. These are wonderful features coming down from Genesis 1.

R.H. The place woman has taken, particularly in Christendom, is wrong.

J.T. The thing is turned upside down. Women becoming members of parliament, etc. -- what are they not doing that man should do? We have to have a judgment of this.

Rem. Femininity before God is the thought and women have lost it today.

J.T. The position is terrible and many of our young brothers and sisters are being called into it -- trained for government services -- but we are with them in sympathies, sentiments and feelings -- Rachel

weeping for her children. We should have right feelings about everything. The feminine side is thus seen in Genesis. We cannot say much of Eve or any woman of the antediluvian world, nor of Noah's wife or his daughters but when we come to Abraham and the span of human life reduced to 180 years we have much more of the sisters. He says of Sarah, She is my sister. And Sarah was his sister. With Rebecca, too -- she was Isaac's cousin. The thought is also with Jacob and then we have it carried through -- Rachel weeping for her children because they were not. It is not simply sister but the feminine idea which God keeps before us.

D.R. In the mind of Ahasuerus the whole scene of glory would be completed in the bringing in of the queen.

J.T. Well, it is unanswered. Vashti was marked as deficient in answering to the mind of God.

D.R. This would carry out the thought that woman was created for the man -- his glory.

J.T. Everything is working to the prophetic plan, given to His servants the prophets, the ministry of God being definite. Certain things come out to expose as we see with Vashti here, and the real principle of God will be shown. It is to this end that we need Esther. It is a question of quality with her -- what she is as chapter 2 brings out, the kind of person she was. We are to learn these qualities. We are not told here but the priests of God like Ezra were contemporary with Esther. Only we see here in Esther, the Jewess, the heavenly qualities.

P.B. Why is the idea of seven brought in here?

J.T. Well, there are two sevens. The seven chamberlains. "On the seventh day, when the king's heart was merry with wine, he commanded Mehuman, Biztha, Harbona, Bigtha, and Abagtha, Zethar, and Carcas, the seven chamberlains that served in the presence of king Ahasuerus, to bring

Vashti the queen before the king with the royal crown to show the peoples and the princes her beauty; for she was of beautiful countenance. But the queen Vashti refused". Well, here it is just seven chamberlains, not princes. Is it pride here? Were they not dignified enough? Why not send his princes? But it is all designed to bring out this great test for womankind. It is not a matter here of what the king is morally. But here he is a king, the great divine thought of God given for the moment to the Gentiles and the book shows how Vashti disregarded it. Well, you say, She had good reason to, if I had been in her place I would have done the same thing. But then God says that is not right. The king is the king and in his word is power. The book of Proverbs tells us what the king is, what power God gives him. This queen while she is having a great time with the women is leaving out the man. But it is all in the house of the king -- "Also the queen Vashti made a feast for the women of the royal house which belonged to king Ahasuerus". Although humbled by the message from the chamberlains her wisdom would have been to bow. Obedience is the word for the feminine side, so the assembly is subjected to Christ.

C.H.H. She was deficient in having this feast?

J.T. We would not have sisters have meetings by themselves. They will never get on. I have known of such. The idea is a system of things where the women are to be silent in the assemblies and are not permitted to speak. It is not your own will, it is God's. Paul says, I suffer not. It is the Spirit of God stressing that they should keep their place in the divine thought.

C.H.H. Would that be the moral reason why she is found deficient in obedience? There must be a moral reason for it.

J.T. She was a very fine looking person and would make much of that no doubt but the statement of the

the Spirit of God in verse 9 is "Also the queen Vashti made a feast for the women of the royal house which belonged to king Ahasuerus". It was his property. They were going on on their own.

J.C. The word of the king here as being merry with wine is not to be disregarded?

J.T. It is right that he was a man personally without one moral quality at all. But this book is not that. You may say that Vashti was goaded into it, but then she belied the divine position.

C.B. Vashti really makes a direct challenge to what God says in Genesis 3:16, "And to thy husband shall be thy desire, and he shall rule over thee". And it is what many women are doing today.

J.T. That is not said before sin came in. "Male and female created he them" (Genesis 1:27). But after sin came in, "he shall rule over thee". And thus God is not forgetting His words and His thoughts and that is what we have here.

Rem. The wife of Manoah brings the man into it.

J.T. Quite so. The angel made more of her than he did of him but she kept her place.

A.P. The end of verse 20 would bring in the thought of obedience.

J.T. Just a word on the princes before we come to that. We have had the seven chamberlains and now in verse 13, "And the king said to the wise men who knew the times (for so was the king's business conducted before all that knew law and judgment; and the next to him were Carshena, Shethar, Admatha, Tarshish, Meres, Marsena, and Memucan, the seven princes of Persia and Media, who saw the king's face, and who sat first in the kingdom)". I think these seven princes bring out the position, not only the king but what there was, in the way of government and counsel and wisdom. Well, so far so good. We are thankful for that. We are thankful for the parliament at Ottawa, and the Governor-General and

the king of England -- the matter is worked out here. So the Spirit of God goes on, "Then said Memucan before the king and the princes, The queen Vashti has not done wrong to the king only, but also to all the princes, and to all the peoples that are in all the provinces of the king Ahasuerus. For the act of the queen will come abroad to all women, so as to render their husbands contemptible in their eyes, when they shall say, The king Ahasuerus commanded the queen Vashti to be brought in before him, and she came not! And the princesses of Persia and Media who have heard of the queen's act, will say it this day to all the king's princes, and there will be contempt and anger enough. If it please the king, let a royal order go forth from him, and let it be written among the laws of the Persians and the Medes, that it may not pass, That Vashti come no more before king Ahasuerus; and let the king give her royal estate to another that is better than she; and when the king's edict which he shall make shall be heard throughout his realm -- for it is great -- all the wives shall give to their husbands honour, from the greatest to the least". So that the book is showing that the Gentile monarchy is still holding government and recognising counsel. The circumstances force the bringing of woman into her place and the maintaining of man in his place. So that necessitates the change in the female side. I think we shall see that the assembly as under the rule of Christ will maintain the position. The assembly is subjected, it is the divine vessel. So we have to learn that now -- it is the learning time for us. In circumstances, in such conditions, with the Gentile monarchies at war we are learning what the mind of God is in being under rule -- subjection to Christ. That is the present position -- to maintain subjection to Christ in all these terrible conditions.

J.D. It is moral qualifications in the princes that is needed. And would you say that those qualifications

are seen in the assembly at the present time in connection with rule and government?

J.T. I would. It is a matter of princes. Take the Pope in the Vatican. It is the claim of the Vatican -- equality with all princes -- and yet a false position. She sits a queen.

Rem. Have you in mind that this equality with princes was in Vashti's mind and that is necessitating the setting aside of the first?

J.T. It shows what is hidden in the book by the Spirit of God is that Esther is in mind. Take the words of this wise man -- he speaks wisely. So his speech necessitates Esther. It is instructive for us as we look at Esther -- what she had on. Are we accepting the clothing that Hegai gives -- content with that?

P.B. God works bringing in the true feminine side -- our young men have a conscience regarding the truth of the mind of God.

J.T. I think that is right -- the feminine idea. Our young men are subject. Obedience is their way. The only safe way is to be subject, not rebellious.

C.H.H. I would like more help as to the qualifications. In Titus with the elders great moral qualifications are necessary.

J.T. The epistles to Timothy and Titus help as to the feminine side. How much is brought in in relation to government in the assembly. The sisters have part in the administration, the qualities are to be in them, too.

J.G. The willingness to suffer is seen in Esther.

J.T. She certainly represents the second. This man Memucan exposes the first and shows the way of preservation.

P.B. Why is he mentioned the last of the seven princes?

J.T. He is one of them and is the man with the word of wisdom. It would be spoken in parliament -- the way of truth is given out most intelligently -- God

is over it, and it comes out. It is there. That is the idea here.

P.B. Would it mean that God has the last word?

J.D. These princes considered according to law. "What shall be done to the queen Vashti according to law". The princes sit down together to consider the evidence governmentally in connection with law.

J.T. You cannot help but observe that in this country the law does not seem to have full force in regard to the recognition of conscience. The law of the land has not full play as in Great Britain. Why is it? Is not God going to raise this issue if we keep on praying? These seven princes are concerned about the law. This man makes a good speech. And there are such speeches nowadays. What is right is being furnished by persons who hardly know what they are saying.

Rem. "And the saying pleased the king".

J.T. So we hear of young men being hailed to the tribunals -- judgment is passed and his conscience rebels and he suffers. He is penalised, but is it the law? That is the question. And will not God give someone to say something? These seven men are concerned about the law. Who made the law? It is a matter of the principle of law.

R.H. Later on Mordecai refuses to bow to what assumes to be law and is not.

J.T. That the Spirit of God could write a book -- write ten chapters without mentioning God, or the house of God, or the assembly, or the priest or prayer, or prophecy -- that God can write a book like this is remarkable. And we by the Spirit of God as kings can look into what is hidden in it.

L.E.S. Would you say that if the priestly side is maintained today God will maintain what refers to His own rights?

J.T. In spite of man God's mind comes out. He

will see to it that there will be someone who will say the truth.

J.D. Would not something of this be seen in the corps being formed of three hundred young men who do not have to take military training? An answer to the prayers of the saints perhaps.

J.T. Is there not some power at work in exercising some sinister influence against the law, but the princes keep on bringing forward the law. And so, "The saying pleased the king and the princes; and the king did according to the word of Memucan. And he sent letters into all the king's provinces, into every province according to the writing thereof and to every people according to their language, That every man should bear rule in his own house, and should speak according to the language of his people".

READINGS ON THE BOOK OF ESTHER (2)

Esther 3:1 - 15

J.T. It seems as if we should return a little to the first chapter and also enlarge on the second chapter so as to have clearly in our minds what the book is opening up; that is, the first in Vashti and what she represents actively in our times and then the second as to the qualities that show themselves in Esther to bring in the subjective side of the truth which is to be worked out in the truth of the assembly. We looked a little this morning at the State churches and all that resulted in the history of the four monarchies so the feminine side is seen fully developed in the book of Revelation -- how it comes in for divine judgment. Its description as given in that book shows how it merits unmitigated divine judgment. The idea of the feminine in relation to the ruler is seen illustratively, at least, in Nehemiah, who tells us that when he was making supplication to the king to send him to Judaea to build Jerusalem, the queen was sitting by, evidently in sympathy. The writer of the Psalms (which always open up what is worked out in the Pentateuch) tells of the queen in gold of Ophir sitting on the right of the king (Psalm 45), showing the divine thought for Israel. This was reflected in the Babylonish feature of the four monarchies and then in the Persian. Thus there is the queen mother in relation to Belshazzar -- not the queen sitting by now as with Nehemiah -- but the queen in sympathy with what God is doing at that time, and then in our own times in the Romish empire as linked with Christianity. It assumes great importance in the four monarchies in that it comes into Christianity and has had to do with Christ as putting Him to death and putting His servants to

death in the ten persecutions. Pilate's wife enters into that side -- have thou nothing to do with that righteous man. That is the feminine side as we had this morning. And what deterioration set in in the history of the empire as Christianity followed Judaism. As it lost its place the assembly came into view and how quickly it deteriorated into that which is called Babylon in a feminine way. As the empire took over Christianity in the history of the assembly from the second century it shows how the feminine side influenced the ruling side. The ruling side is subservient to the female, to the subjective side and all that is seen in relation to the Reformation -- where Rome claiming to be in sympathy with Christ, sat a queen and was no widow and so to her own sorrow becomes drunk with the blood of the saints. Terrible deterioration and wickedness! And so it stands out as before God as one of the most remarkable influences that ever existed below and shown so by God in the book of Revelation. I think what is before us is as to whether we understand the feminine side in relation to the ruling powers now, and what gives it existence and whether it is not shown in its public character at the present time as influencing the ruling powers. And whether as we see this influence we see our judgment judged upon it; whether it is not worked out in ourselves in true feminine qualities answering to Christ.

L.E.S. Would there be a correspondence in Thyatira, Sardis and Laodicea in relation to Vashti and true feminine features in Philadelphia?

J.T. Quite so. The Lord says, "I will cause that they shall come and shall do homage before thy feet, and shall know that I have loved thee" (Revelation 3:9). He loves to show that she is worthy of His affection.

J.D. What would be involved in verses 19 and 20 of Esther 2? Would it suggest a certain relationship kept until the time comes to make it known?

J.T. Quite so. There is a group of circumstances that should be observed. What has been said about Vashti is to make clear in our minds the necessity for the judgment of God and thus the making way for the qualities of Esther. Then this matter of the second gathering of the virgins in verse 19 seems to allude to some change in the king's attitude. A second gathering of the virgins -- why should there be that if he had already settled on a queen? And then is brought in the circumstance of the attempted assassination of the king bringing Mordecai in due time into immense position of advantage. It would seem as if the matter was settled in regard of Esther as stated in verse 18. "And the king made a great feast to all his princes and his servants, Esther's feast; and he made a release to the provinces, and gave presents according to the king's bounty". The matter seemed to be settled and Esther's position fixed. Well then, why another gathering of the virgins and why should the attempted assassination of the king be mentioned? Is it not for further consideration? Why are other virgins gathered if there is no weakening in the king's affections? But it is all checked by God by the introduction of the attempted assassination bringing Mordecai under the attention of the king. God brings this in here to be used later. In the meantime with this other set of virgins nothing happens and Esther comes through and Mordecai comes through and the mind of God comes through and the fickleness of the king is just left.

J.D. It is the point that God takes to bring Mordecai into evidence.

J.T. God had that in mind. He is laying the basis for further developments in view of the devil. We are not ignorant of what the devil is going to do.

F.R. What is the present bearing of the selection of Esther?

J.T. It is just a great fact in the plan of the book. Such a thing happened. The feminine thought is going over into the Gentile monarchies. Vashti is to be replaced. She has proved herself disqualified because of disobedience. That is the first thought with humanity. Eve listened to the devil without enquiring of her husband -- she was in the transgression -- God never forgot that. And He states at that point that Adam should rule over her. She is not safe without rule -- the ruling side in Adam. She is not safe, she proves herself as exposed to the devil. And this runs down. She has had her place with the Jew -- God's spouse and with the Gentile monarchies she has also had her place. She has her place in the queen mother in Babylon -- the queen in the Medo-Persian kingdom when Nehemiah wanted to build Jerusalem. She played her part there as sitting by the monarch and assisting him rightly. But Vashti is not doing that. You say, She is not so bad. But the point is she rebelled and refused to hear what the king said in his own territory.

C.H.H. Is the second gathering of the virgins like the proving of the matter, as it was at Corinth?

J.T. Why the second gathering? The assassination is brought in to becloud it. You never hear of it again. If it had gone through what would have become of Esther and Mordecai? But it did not go though. Incidents happened to check it as at Corinth.

J.D. The position of the man and the woman comes out here in Esther and Mordecai. She is already showing feminine qualities -- Mordecai tells her of the incident and she relates it to the king in Mordecai's name. She gives the man his place.

J.T. So we should look carefully into chapter 2 to see the qualities of the accepted one -- of the second Job's wife is just left -- we cannot say what her history was eventually. The daughters of the first family are destroyed and there is not evidence of

a second wife in the book of Job. But here no children are mentioned -- it is the wife in this book. I think we have seen how Vashti, in type, has worked out in the book of Revelation -- supreme wickedness -- Rome, Babylon -- the smoke of her burning ascends for ever and ever. So that now the second chapter assumes great importance as bringing in the second. There are such qualities there. She was an orphan and Mordecai had brought her up, and thus she gradually comes into her place and shows subjection immediately -- she is content with what is provided for her by Hegai.

L.E.S. The present activities of the Spirit in prophetic ministry all enter into it. All that comes into Esther's position corresponding to Hegai's kindness to her.

J.T. So there is much said in this chapter that needs attention. It opens up remarkably that in Esther qualities are developed in the presence of Vashti's qualities seen fully blown in Revelation and in power today. In the time of Constantine already the mystery of iniquity had begun to work and thus in the time of the Reformation we have a number of persons instituting a state church. And that idea has held in Europe -- it is this great thing called Babylon and stands as representing the feminine side regarding the four monarchies -- especially the fourth monarchy which comes through to the end. There are other women linked with it; they are called harlots. Babylon is the mother of harlots -- there are others. The Anglican system is an apt illustration of a State church. Even in Scotland and Russia and Greece, all through Europe -- the idea of the State church is held and in the Americas, too, the outgoings of Europe. It is not so prominent perhaps in the Americas but it exists, the politicians allude to the church -- make room for the church. It is the woman -- that is the idea.

C.B. As applying this to us Vashti's features are to give place to the second -- the heavenly features as acceptable to Christ.

J.T. That is what we are saying. Esther features are developed in the presence of all that has been described. It is the working out of the truth of the assembly. We have both features in Revelation -- the heavenly city and Babylon.

C.H.H. As Esther keeps her proper place, is that the power for dealing with evil regardless of how evil it is?

J.T. We shall see in that way how Esther comes though. In the meantime there are qualities with her that are known. Hegai, keeper of the women, knows them -- he discerns them. And so it says, "There was in Shushan the fortress a certain Jew, whose name was Mordecai, the son of Jair, the son of Shimei, the son of Kish, a Benjaminite, who had been carried away from Jerusalem with the captives who had been carried away with Jeconiah king of Judah, whom Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon had carried away. And he brought up Hadassah, that is, Esther". It is like, "Who also is Paul", a change of name -- no doubt having the meaning of the word 'Esther' in mind. "And he brought up Hadassah, that is, Esther, his uncle's daughter; for she had neither father nor mother -- and the maiden was fair and beautiful -- and when her father and mother were dead, Mordecai took her for his own daughter". These are beautiful thoughts -- you would like to qualify them in the presence of all we have been speaking of. "And it came to pass when the king's commandment and his decree was heard, and when many maidens were gathered together unto Shushan the fortress, unto the custody of Hegai, that Esther also was brought into the king's house, unto the custody of Hegai, keeper of the women. And the maiden pleased him, and obtained favour before him". She had qualities.

J.D. It is like Joseph in the Egyptian prison -- what moral qualities were there. So Esther's qualities shine in the position in which she is set.

J.T. And the persons who have charge of her promote her. They discern those qualities. Something or someone somewhere will be in sympathy with those qualities, and have sympathetic feeling which God has put there.

C.B. It says of the Lord that He "advanced in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and men" (Luke 2:52).

J.T. Those are feminine qualities -- the principle of subjection, no evidence of self-will. Hegai discerns that at once. And it says, "And the maiden pleased him, and obtained favour before him; and he speedily gave her her things for purification". It is the increase of femininity, as with Rebekah and Abigail. "And when the turn of Esther, the daughter of Abihail the uncle of Mordecai, who had taken her for his daughter, came to go in to the king, she required nothing but what Hegai the king's chamberlain, keeper of the women, appointed". That is she was subject.

L.E.S. The loss of her father and mother would be to her advantage.

J.T. That is worked out. To be orphans is one thing. Not to be left orphans is another.

Ques. What would Mordecai represent in this?

J.T. Just an element -- he works out as a type of Christ later on. In the meantime he is just a person who has great care for another person. He was devoted to Esther. "And Mordecai walked every day before the court of the women's house, to know how Esther did, and what should become of her". It is the principle of care.

L.E.S. Would this enter somewhat into the care of the assembly?

J.T. Quite so. It is like the care meeting. The

word 'care' is a good word. It shows unselfishness on the part of the brethren that they will sit up for hours to look after the affairs of the assembly in the town.

R.H. Would these features work out in the exercises of the local assembly and come to the attention of the authorities later?

J.T. That is what happened with Mordecai. He is found in the king's gate. It is the idea of administration. The qualities of the people of God are in view that they are qualities to be brought to the attention of the rulers. In our day the qualities are coming before the authorities. They may hate us but someone among them will not.

L.E.S. In Acts 25 and 26 you get the apostle as setting forth these qualities before the authorities.

J.T. What beautiful qualities before Agrippa and before all of them. Exemplary indeed! Take Barnabas and Paul as they go to Cyprus and one Bar-jesus would have turned the ruler away from the faith but what came out was that Bar-jesus was dealt with, struck with blindness for a season -- the Jews' position today. "But Saul, who also is Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, fixing his eyes upon him, said, O full of all deceit and all craft: son of the devil, enemy of all righteousness". And so the governor himself becomes amazed at the teaching of the Lord. So that the male side came into evidence there and it is there that his name is changed. "Who also is Paul". Here "that is Esther". And so that is how the matter stands -- Paul comes into contact with the leading man and there is a chance to bring out his qualities. There is a witness to the qualities of the assembly today. It is a very great matter that the governors should see our qualities.

J.C. Is the book of Esther the determined effort of the devil to influence government to destroy all that is of God and for God on the earth?

J.T. Not simply the brethren or those in fellowship, but all that is of God. The devil has no small thought against us. Every product of God in Christendom is in mind in this book, even those not in fellowship get the work of God -- the devil is against them.

C.B. All this indicates their worth as seen in God's house.

J.T. Why not? Destroy not him for whom Christ died. It shows how valuable the brother is even though a Presbyterian. And so with the ruler there will always be such like Pilate's wife and like Pharaoh's daughter who did not turn against the children of Israel for she took up one of them that was weeping.

J.D. In the governmental ways of God Mordecai is in the gate when the king's chamberlains, those that kept the threshold, those who looked after the interests of the king supposedly, were planning to kill him. All this is to bring forward Mordecai and Esther.

J.T. So someone will say, Well, I know these men, why imprison them? Someone will be there -- many will not say it, but someone will say it -- Why imprison them? Mordecai is put down in the Chronicles and one night the king cannot sleep so he has that book read to him and it saves Esther and Mordecai, and the Jews.

J.D. Verse 23 says, "And it was written in the book of the chronicles before the king". It was there waiting God's time.

J.T. God saw the devil working in Haman and also in the gathering of the virgins a second time -- whether for another queen we do not know. But Haman is there and God is preparing to defeat him. And someone is going to be used to defeat the devil and save the brethren.

R.H. Would we not be justified then in using the

government's records of a certain period showing those known as brethren?

J.T. Why should we not tell people who we are? And these young men who have a conscience are in fellowship with people like that.

L.E.S. Does Esther show the children of God over against the children of the devil -- the generative idea? Here it is Haman, the son of Hammedatha the Agagite -- a descendant of Esau.

P.B. Would Sardis represent Vashti and the overcomer in Sardis who is promised white garments -- would that represent Esther here, as being prepared by the oil of myrrh and spices?

J.T. It is a question of quality in those assemblies. Every assembly has had its day, beginning with Ephesus, Sardis has had its day, Pergamos, too, "I know where thou dwellest, where the throne of Satan is; and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith" (Revelation 2:10). And then there is something of Thyatira and then certainly Philadelphia had its day. The whole idea of the assembly is to be seen there. "I have loved thee". "That they ... shall know". (Revelation 3:9). You say, What does it matter whether they know or not? But it does matter. The Lord says, That they shall know.

C.H.H. Would the oil of myrrh and spices as being prepared for service link with John 2 -- the full water pots -- as necessary for the kind of service we are going on to now?

J.T. It shows the need for filling us -- preparation for the heart of Christ -- that we might be to Another.

J.F. What would be seen in Esther finding favour and then requiring nothing but what she is appointed?

J.T. If you are subject to the Spirit of God you do not want anything more than the Spirit provides. You may use gifts -- but gifts are by the Spirit.

L.E.S. You see here that God not only overrules but orders certain circumstances in the history of

the testimony in order to bring out the characteristic features of His own work, as the third chapter would show.

J.T. God takes the feminine to meet current evil -- the kind of evil that we have to do with now. So that chapter 3 brings out Haman, we are not told anything about him before. But we have his generations here. "After these things king Ahasuerus promoted Haman the son of Hammedatha the Agagite, and advanced him, and set his seat above all the princes that were with him". The ruling power is now not against the devil. But God is taking charge of His interests, although not in evidence. The incident of the attempted assassination is one incident that God is using for the preservation of His interests at a later date.

J.D. Just before going on to that I would like a word on the end of the second chapter. "And the matter was investigated and found out". It is an excellent thing to find things out.

J.T. That is what the care meeting is for.

J.D. I think sometimes in a matter of evil we do not trouble to find out because it means a little exercise to go into the matter. But here it is a divine principle in these matters to find it out. I just wanted you to mention that as a principle of care.

J.T. And when the time came for it to be brought out this investigation showed the thing as it stood. The king enquired as to what had been done for Mordecai. "And the king said, What honour and dignity has been done to Mordecai for this? And the king's servants that attended upon him said, Nothing has been done for him". How did they know? They were on the right side. These are things we can look for -- they knew. "Nothing has been done for him". I thought well to bring that in here to show how God brings such to light, and how the servants knew and are ready with the answer to

the king's question. Why had not the thing passed out of their minds? Pharaoh's butler did not remember Joseph. He forgot Joseph. But these men do not forget. We can count on God looking after the matter in this way.

A.P. What is the point in Mordecai's refusal to bow to Haman?

J.T. That brings up the whole point of what the devil is doing in the position. Vashti has been supplanted by Esther. That is an attested matter. "And the king made a great feast to all his princes and his servants, Esther's feast" (Esther 2:18). So there is full recognition in the realm that she is queen. Now what will the devil do? This second gathering of the virgins was another move -- but there is not much in that now. Just an item for us to notice. Then Esther had not made herself known or her birth known. She is still under the orders of Mordecai, maintaining her place in subjection to him. That was her salvation. "Esther, as Mordecai had charged her, had not yet made known her birth nor her people; for Esther did what Mordecai told her, like as when she was brought up with him". A very good principle. She retained her simplicity. So the devil is going to be checked and nullified. Further we have Haman's genealogy given in the beginning of chapter 3 and it says "And all the king's servants that were in the king's gate bowed and did Haman reverence, for the king had so commanded concerning him. But Mordecai bowed not, nor did him reverence. Then the king's servants who were in the king's gate, said to Mordecai, Why trangressest thou the king's commandment? And it came to pass as they spoke daily to him, and he hearkened not to them, that they informed Haman, to see whether Mordecai's matters would stand; for he had told them that he was a Jew". Well, there it is, the lines are drawn now. Is Mordecai equal to this matter? So the succeeding

chapters show how evil is broken down and right triumphs through Esther and Mordecai. But we should further notice the character of the evil and what it is in such circumstances. "And when Haman saw that Mordecai bowed not, nor did him reverence, Haman was full of fury. But he scorned to lay hands on Mordecai alone; for they had made known to him the people of Mordecai; therefore Haman sought to destroy all the Jews that were in all the kingdom of Ahasuerus -- the people of Mordecai". So that we now have the people of Mordecai, the real seed, the wholly right seed. Because a converted man is a converted man -- the work of God is there -- the seed is there. For the seed is the work of God.

C.H.H. Do we get the full thought of it in the last chapter of Esther -- "Speaking peace to all his seed"?

J.T. Quite so -- Mordecai comes out as the full type later. But here it is the seed -- Mordecai's people. "But he scorned to lay hands on Mordecai alone; for they had made known to him the people of Mordecai; therefore Haman sought to destroy all the Jews that were in all the kingdom of Ahasuerus -- the people of Mordecai".

P.B. Would the full climax of this be in Revelation 13 and 14 where the two beasts come up and the second beast exercises authority over all and then there are the hundred and forty-four thousand on mount Zion standing with the Lamb as having overcome the devil?

J.T. He is the wicked one. He represents this Haman character only that this is the Amalekite -- God had declared war with Amalek from generation to generation. It is a question of applying this to ourselves and that we see that those coming into fellowship come in according to God -- obeying the word of the Lord.

C.B. Why are these generations stressed so in this book?

J.T. Paul calls Bar-jesus -- a child of the devil, enemy of all righteousness.

L.E.S. Is it over against the true seed -- the Jews?

J.T. The devil's agent is against that here. Mordecai and the devil's agent -- the battle is drawn. So that we watch and see how it works out. And thus look around and see what is going on and call things by their proper names and take sides with what is right in whomsoever it is found.

F.R. All this requires discernment for what is with the testimony today may not be tomorrow.

J.T. The king is very fickle but God can turn around whom He pleases. He may not be openly identified with His people but He is with them in Spirit.

J.D. What is the meaning of Esther 3:7?

J.T. "In the first month, that is, the month Nisan, in the twelfth year of king Ahasuerus, they cast Pur, that is, the lot, before Haman for each day and for each month, to the twelfth month, that is, the month Adar". This is going to come up again. It is history, spiritual history. This is going to be fixed by and by. These things are methodically written. The lot was cast in the month Nisan and every day until the month Adar. Well, it is covering a good bit of time this matter. Haman is looking into the matter systematically. The devil has shone in the past few years in methodical calculation of matters -- he is extremely skilful -- but God turns the tables against him. You wonder at how successful they were. It was successful. "And Haman said to king Ahasuerus, There is a people scattered abroad and dispersed among the peoples in all the provinces of thy kingdom; and their laws are diverse from those of every people, and they keep not the king's laws; and it is not for the king's profit to suffer them". Well, that is just the way it is, if fully known. If the world only knew what we have in

our minds! They do not know. God keeps it. But presently it will come to light. So Haman here is telling the king about these people and we have to watch for men doing that. Whether with parliaments and their cabinets we have to maintain an attitude of subjection and faith in God -- that will be our salvation. But their minds may be affected. Ahasuerus was affected here and came over to the side of the devil. Haman says to him, "There is a people scattered abroad and dispersed among the peoples in all the provinces of thy kingdom; and their laws are diverse from those of every people, and they keep not the king's laws". Well, there the evil is seen and how successful it is. The king is listening to it. "If it please the king, let it be written that they may be destroyed, and I will pay ten thousand talents of silver into the hands of those that have charge of the affairs, to bring it into the king's treasuries. And the king took his ring from his hand, and gave it to Haman the son of Hammedatha, the Agagite, the Jews' enemy. And the king said to Haman, The silver is given to thee, the people also, to do with them as seems good to thee". The king takes his advice. He is on the side of the devil now. He has turned about face. It is a dark hour!

L.E.S. But did not Haman say what was not right? "They keep not the king's laws". That is not true.

J.T. You can well understand that when people are against God's people they tell lies. There is nothing for them but to tell lies. What did he know about their laws? Had he read Moses?

A.H. How would this affect us in the prayer meeting?

J.T. I suppose the brethren here pray for the authorities. They give thanks for the benign attitude of the government so that as far as I know this matter comes into the prayer meetings of the brethren

everywhere. It is the secret of the change that has come about. Because the uprising we are dealing with is in principle the man of sin -- the time is ripening for it. But God is pleased to intervene and prolong the position as we have it, I believe chiefly in answer to the prayers of the saints.

C.H.H. This is an excellent principle seen with Mordecai. He says that he is a Jew. Like Joseph's brethren they said they were shepherds regardless of being despised by the Egyptians.

J.T. It is noticeable there, too, that Pharaoh does not despise them, so that sometimes you see a move in favour of what is right and this is our salvation. We are to count on that. God answers our prayers in establishing such men. It is for us to look for that. Just as later another king's daughter saved the one of Jehovah's choice.

F.R. God raised up another king that knew not Joseph.

J.T. But his daughter saved Moses -- that was of God.

T.D. Mordecai is not affected by Haman's attitude. He had light as to the end of the Amalekite.

J.T. Before the truth of fellowship came up, at the time of the reformation -- four hundred years ago -- the martyrs suffered. The Mordecais stood for the truth and died for the truth. That is the kind of thing.

R.H. Mordecai was not only a Jew but he maintained a good conscience individually.

J.T. Haman is not satisfied with the individual thought. Moses killed one Egyptian. It took a long time, but all the others were killed in the Red Sea. Haman was not concerned with one man but wanted his people destroyed. And he must have been a very wealthy man. He would give ten thousand talents of silver.

L.E.S. That would be equivalent to twenty million dollars.

J.T. That is quite interesting.

A.H. What these matters bring to light is that we know the assembly is precious to the heart of Christ. Mordecai speaks to Esther the queen in regard of the decree.

J.T. That will come out in the next chapter. It is well now to see the character of evil, how Satan uses this man. At the time of the reformation there was a very wealthy man, Thomas Cromwell. At a time like this Satan brings out his man. Well, God meets that -- he takes such as Mordecai out of the hands of the devil and sets him up in His own kingdom.

J.D. It is marvellous the methodical way the devil goes into these matters as already pointed out from verse 7. God uses accuracy and method and so does Satan. In verse 13 there is accuracy again -- you wonder at the way the Spirit of God gives us this, as if it is the thought of God governmentally.

J.T. So it goes on as you say, "That the decree might be given in every province, a copy of the writing was published to all peoples, that they should be ready against that day. The couriers went out, being hastened by the king's commandment, and the decree was given in Shushan the fortress. And the king and Haman sat down to drink; but the city of Shushan was in consternation". The devil's position is being shaken. It is akin to Acts 4 but there it is God's support by the shaking. But now the devil's machinery is being upset, in the spirit of consternation. This recent uprising has brought into view the spirit of consternation. It can be seen. God has seen to it that it is going to be seen.

C.B. Is the secret of the undoing of this power seen in Esther coming through the six months of purification?

J.T. Quite so. The experience of the terrible thing here that has to be overcome. The Lord will help us to see how she shows forth the spirit of Christ -- she puts her life in her hands as we shall see in chapter 4.

C.B. If one is not prepared to go that far they are not worth saving.

J.T. Any compromise is not worth saving. The lines are drawn and those remarkably show the position of Satan and of what is of Christ. Matthew shows the generations.

P.B. "To destroy, to kill and to cause to perish".

J.T. It is like our own Acts -- there is no mistaking what is meant. And they are to be fully carried out. You are impressed with the character of this -- the devil can win and has won and will win again. You are impressed by the ingenuity of the devil. But God is against that. However, we are solemnised at what will happen and be successful. In the meantime God is thwarting it.

G.R. Would that be seen in Esther as prepared to suffer?

J.T. You see what God is taking is worth taking on. He is not taking on something not worth it. We shall see the qualities of suffering in Mordecai and Esther in the next chapter -- the character of Christ in suffering -- going the whole way, refusing to compromise.

J.D. Is the consternation in the city in contrast to Haman and the king?

J.T. The devil would link Haman and the king, but God is working with the populace. God has rights in the city. There is this clique there, but then God has rights that He is not going to let go. God has rights in this country that He is not going to let go. He has His people and He is not going to let them go, either. We shall see that He answers our

prayers and at the same time we become priests to God -- the real thing.

L.E.S. So Paul says, We are not ignorant of his devices. We are fully aware of the subtle workings of the devil.

F.R. Would you say that these sympathies and feelings of the saints are in the circle of the fellowship, as we speak, now?

J.T. It is what God has in the systems now. Mordecai and Esther were not in Jerusalem or in the temple -- but there are certain qualities of God there and He is using them.

C.H.H. In Acts 16 when the devil had done his worst Paul and Silas sing praises -- the testimony is unaffected.

J.T. Going on into Europe and thus we have it now on the Pacific Coast. Thank God for it! The whole truth is opened up and God has His people now even in the Roman Catholic system. The Lord knows them that are His. And at the same time the books of Ezra and Nehemiah bring to light the divine system. But there are others belonging to the Lord as in Mordecai.

L.E.S. We have the prophetic word as to this in Haggai and Zechariah.

J.T. Dealing with the Jews in this book is dealing with the immense territory called a hundred and twenty-seven provinces -- the whole world. Our prayers would be for our brethren of any denomination in those countries in Europe under a power as represented in Haman. Think of our prayers -- the priesthood -- our prayer meetings -- there is no circle like the people of God. We belong to a heavenly system. We have a great Priest over the house of God. I am sure God is carrying through and helping us in the current matter.

C.B. Why is it previously mentioned as Shushan the fortress and here as the city?

J.T. It is a capital matter. The city is the idea of administration, the centre of the system, of the fellowship. And the brethren in camps who are suffering are away from the fellowship. It is a great advantage of the devil. These young men are in great danger as separated from the brethren and the fellowship -- the thing might go on to their damage. The idea of damage comes into this book. We have to keep our eye on the property of God exposed to the devil.

C.H.H. Is it not interesting to see that while Haman is working against the Jews, Ezra and Nehemiah have their part in the testimony?

J.T. One loves to think of the service of the brethren in relation to what is current, but at the same time there is a great deal of exposure of the most valuable property in our young men being deprived of fellowship.

READINGS ON THE BOOK OF ESTHER (3)

Esther 4:1 - 17; Esther 5:1 - 14

L.E.S. Would you say a word as to what we have had already to link up the subject?

J.T. Well, we spoke on the first chapter at some length to show the principle of the displacement of the first by the second. The principle is seen in the book of Job but in relation to a family whereas here it is in relation to a king. Vashti proves herself unfit for the great place of queen and Esther proves herself fit to have it and obtains it. "And when the turn of Esther the daughter of Abihail the uncle of Mordecai, who had taken her for his daughter, came to go in to the king, she required nothing but what Hegai the king's chamberlain, keeper of the women, appointed. And Esther obtained grace in the sight of all them that saw her" (Esther 2:15). And so she was taken in to the king. "And the king loved Esther above all the women, and she obtained grace and favour in his sight more than all the virgins, and he set the royal crown upon her head, and made her queen instead of Vashti. And the king made a great feast to all his princes and his servants, Esther's feast; and he made a release to the provinces, and gave presents according to the king's bounty". Well, we enlarged on chapter 2 in that respect to show how Esther commended herself in a womanly fashion. It was pointed out the idea of woman's place in relation to man begins in Genesis 1 and comes down -- it is seen in Abraham's house and Isaac's house and Jacob's house and then Israel had its day -- had its place as the spouse of Jehovah. And now it is seen in the four monarchies -- the Gentile monarchies which God appointed while hiding His face from the house of Jacob. And it comes out in a marked way in the

second monarchy, which is before us, the Persian monarchy. It comes out in a very evident way so that we cannot but see the inspiration of God in the book -- the setting of the acts as including and involving the principles governing man and woman -- first in relation to Israel and then in relation to the Gentile monarchies and finally in relation to Christ and the assembly. Now in these two chapters before us, especially the fourth, we see there is correspondence to Christ in suffering. Esther is called to the position and to the requirements of the position in the sense of suffering. The enemy coming in as in Haman in chapter 3 forces the crisis and no doubt corresponds to conditions now. It is a question of whether the brethren are meeting the crisis in the spirit of suffering.

R.H. It begins with sackcloth and ashes.

J.T. Quite so. Suitable attire -- the man leads the way in that. No doubt the principle runs down from the start of the suffering into the feminine side but it begins with Christ. Mordecai is taking the lead in the suffering but Esther is brought into it. It is a great matter that there should be leadership -- a lead given for all. It is a pretty critical time just now and suffering seems to be the appointed way and may it be according to God.

R.H. Would Peter's epistles help in that relation -- suffering because of conscience in relation to the authorities?

J.T. I think that is good. Perhaps we should read it. "Beloved, take not as strange the fire of persecution which has taken place amongst you for your trial, as if a strange thing was happening to you; but as ye have share in the sufferings of Christ, rejoice, that in the revelation of his glory also ye may rejoice with exultation. If ye are reproached in the name of Christ, blessed are ye; for the Spirit of glory and the Spirit of God rests upon you"

(1 Peter 4:12 - 14). There are other epistles, no doubt, having in mind the same line, but this is a striking one. The suggestion is that we are not to think it strange. We are to expect it.

R.H. The thought of suffering is suggested thirteen times in Peter's epistles and the thought of glory is mentioned thirteen times, I think.

J.G. Paul was shown what great things he must suffer.

J.T. Yes, what great things in suffering for the Lord -- "for my name".

L.E.S. Have you in mind that as Esther was called into the matter she was rather beneath the position of Mordecai?

J.T. Well, that is the matter before us now. It is clearly stated in the chapter -- the position of suffering -- and we are called to it. It comes right down to ourselves. It should not be thought a strange matter. Christians normally should see that suffering is attached to our position. It is given us by God not only to believe on Him but to suffer for Him.

J.D. What would be the application of Mordecai going out into the city? Is it the character of suffering publicly? "And when Mordecai knew all that was done, Mordecai rent his garments, and put on sackcloth with ashes, and went out into the midst of the city, and cried with a loud and bitter cry, and came even before the king's gate". Is the idea that suffering is not only enduring the guilt but known as such?

J.T. It is an open matter. Moses esteemed the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures of Egypt; that is it was reproach openly, that he identified himself with his suffering brethren and that is what Mordecai is doing here. Esther was not equal to the position just as Moses had not been. Thus the later saints are referred to the Pentateuch

for example in things. Moses set the example -- he was afraid of the king -- but he won out eventually. The Spirit of God credits him with the reproach of Christ in Hebrews, perhaps he never used that term himself -- but it was really the reproach of Christ that he suffered. It was there and he took it on.

R.H. What is the significance of the link between Mordecai and the king's gate? The assassination is connected with that. And Haman could not tolerate Mordecai in the gate.

J.T. The allusion to the king's gate here is, "And came even before the king's gate; for none might enter into the king's gate clothed with sackcloth". Really it was an insult to the king to come in that attire. We should not want to be in the king's gate in that attire. The king's gate should be favourable to the people. There should not be any cause for sackcloth and a loud and bitter cry. That is the idea of the gate of the king. The gate of the king involves what he would regard as righteous administration but it was broken down. The third chapter shows that righteousness had fled. He and Haman had sat down to drink in a murderous attitude and the city had been in consternation. Where was the gate? Why was there consternation?

A.P. Is there a voice or sense of intelligence connected with the reference to the clothes?

J.T. Well, it is a comment made in the scripture and raises a query as to what brings forth this attitude. The king is not in this attitude. The gate has broken down, that is the import of the matter. And there is a reason for Mordecai's attitude. Although he had a place in the gate there is a reason for coming before it in this attitude. There is a good reason for it. And it was of the king to find it out and know that there was a good reason for it. The question is to be simple. Is the gate broken down today and are we suffering accordingly?

P.B. What would the king represent in our times?

J.T. The idea is the administration of the kingdom.

P.B. Why should Mordecai suffer and be found at the king's gate?

J.T. He is not ashamed to identify himself with the cause. David says, Is there not a cause? And is there not a cause in the recent sufferings?

C.H.H. We get the protest of the king in Nehemiah, as Nehemiah comes before him with sadness of countenance. And the king is not without sympathy.

J.T. As we have been having it -- the queen sitting by him, the queen referring to a benign influence. But where is it here? Where is it now? Where is it in Shushan the fortress -- the king's gate where righteousness was to be administered? Has righteousness broken down? In the world generally it has. The sackcloth and ashes shows there is a cause. David says, Is there not a cause? And there is cause for real suffering today. Mordecai is facing the matter single-handed -- the divine spearhead in the conflict with the devil in Haman.

L.E.S. "The kingdom of the heavens is taken by violence, and the violent seize on it" (Matthew 11:12). I was thinking in this case that Haman should have represented the rights of the throne and the whole matter was being wrongly represented and Mordecai was using violence -- doing violence to his own feelings -- and taking the kingdom by force -- bringing in a right representation of God.

J.T. That is right. The issue now is whether righteousness will prevail. Mordecai is proceeding in suffering. It does not say he prayed to God; it does not even mention God's name, but it does say there was fasting. So that is the first thing to be noted in this matter.

R.H. Mordecai is giving a lead and the lead is being taken on by the Jews, "There was great mourning among the Jews, and fasting, and weeping,

and wailing: many lay in sackcloth and ashes".

J.T. It was a right lead. That is a thing to notice and it is so now, where there is a right lead in these matters. Because there is so much confusion especially in Canada -- a great deal of confusion in the minds of the brethren -- there has not been a clear lead in the matter. I believe we can learn something from this passage. It is Mordecai alone -- none with him so far. "And when Mordecai knew all that was done, Mordecai rent his garments, and put on sackcloth with ashes, and went out into the midst of the city, and cried with a loud and bitter cry, and came even before the king's gate". And then we are told further, "for none might enter into the king's gate clothed with sackcloth". That is added by the Spirit of God to show us that Mordecai was not evading the dangers. It is with a loud and bitter cry, that is there was no uncertainty in the issue in which Mordecai gives a lead. It is a matter of great importance that we have a right lead so that people may know what to do.

J.G. "And there was found in it a poor wise man, who by his wisdom delivered the city" (Ecclesiastes 9:15).

J.T. Quite so. Yes, by his wisdom.

R.H. Would what you are saying fit in with Peter's reference to the leaders being models for the flock?

J.T. Just so.

Ques. What would Mordecai's loud and bitter cry suggest?

J.T. Well, it is a painful experience. Loud and bitter. The Lord cried with a loud voice. The matter is heard by the universe -- it is a real issue -- it is the cross, you know. The Lord faced it. Here it is not God but man. The Psalms are filled with this -- the sufferings of Christ in adverse circumstances.

C.B. Would Mordecai's movements represent the right way of bringing things before the authorities?

J.T. Just so. The king must be brought into it because it is the king's edict. He has committed himself to murder by the dark counsel of this man, Haman, the Jews' enemy -- it is a real drawn conflict! This is forced by this man Haman and he is called the Jews' enemy. Satan is with him, as we know. The Amalekite -- sin in the flesh. This man has great power and has the support of the king now -- Satan has a real champion in the issue. But there is going to be a way made in David. There must be a David -- it is really Christ. It is Christ going forth to meet the devil.

L.E.S. "I am weary with my crying, my throat is parched; mine eyes fail while I wait for my God. They that hate me without a cause are more than the hairs of my head; they that would destroy me, being mine enemies wrongfully, are mighty: then I restored that which I took not away" (Psalm 69:3,4).

J.T. That helps. The psalms are full of that spirit, the spirit of Christ, so that it is suffering for Christ and the glory that follows. This book as we will see is filled with the testimony of God in suffering and glory. Here Mordecai is holding the position manfully. And he has the whole Persian empire against him. That is the position.

C.B. Mordecai's answers to Esther indicate that everyone must do or die.

J.T. The first paragraph is Mordecai's lead and what is involved in that lead -- facing the matter in suffering, in an outward way. And God is not outwardly acknowledging the thing. It is remarkable! And he is not evading the dangers for the Spirit of God says, "for none might enter into the king's gate clothed with sackcloth". And then Esther re-echoes this. "And Esther spoke to Hatach, and gave him commandment unto Mordecai: All the king's servants and the people of the king's provinces do know that whoever, whether man or woman, shall

come to the king into the inner court, who is not called, there is one law, to put him to death, except such to whom the king shall hold out the golden sceptre, that he may live; and I have not been called to come in unto the king these thirty days". Well, now there she is re-echoing this to Mordecai. He was taking his life in his hands -- laying down his life for his brethren. That is what is in mind. Esther makes it known it is a question of her brethren, her people, openly identifying herself with her people and Mordecai was openly identified with the people. They are taking their lives in their hands. "Hereby we have known love, because he has laid down his life for us; and we ought for the brethren to lay down our lives" (1 John 3:16). That is what is in mind in current circumstances that we may lay down our lives for the brethren. We must obey God rather than men.

F.R. In the first instance here Esther is not prepared to go the whole way.

J.T. She wanted to alleviate the position. It was not that she was so much against it, but it was feeling for her benefactor, she knew what he was exposed to and thought that perhaps he did not need to be so public about it. She perhaps thought it unnecessary to go to the gate of the king in that kind of attire in garments of sackcloth. While you cannot say she was against the thing she clearly wanted to alleviate the position.

D.R. Is it something like Peter when the Lord p rebuked him saying, Get thee behind me, Satan? He would seek to evade the suffering of the position.

J.T. As if he thought the Lord was going too far. Why expose yourself like that?

R.H. "Arm yourselves with the same mind" (1 Peter 4:1).

J.T. Very good. Well, Mordecai was armed with the preparedness to suffer -- seen in the sackcloth and

ashes. And he gives a lead and Esther comes under that lead. She tries to alleviate the matter, as already remarked. Esther commands -- notice that. "And the queen was exceedingly grieved: and she sent raiment to clothe Mordecai, and to take away his sackcloth from him; but he received it not". He was thoroughly proof against that. There is to be no modification in this matter. The Lord did not receive the vinegar as He suffered on the cross. "Then Esther called for Hatach, one of the king's chamberlains, whom he had appointed to wait upon her, and gave him a commandment to Mordecai, to know what it was, and why it was". She is now queenly. But as suffering comes on we want womanhood uppermost in the test, womanly qualities to go the whole way in suffering and identification with a right cause. So it is said that she gave him a commandment. The word 'commandment' raises the exercise of queenly qualities, but are they any good? Mordecai goes on without heeding them. "And Mordecai told him of all that had happened to him, and of the sum of money that Haman had promised to pay to the king's treasuries for the Jews, to destroy them". Mordecai is careful to say that he had promised. "And he gave him a copy of the writing of the decree that had been given at Shushan to destroy them, to shew it to Esther, and to declare it to her, and to charge her that she should go in unto the king, to make supplication to him, and to make request before him, for her people". That is he is teaching her the thing as it is. Her people as well as his. He is already in suffering and she is to come in. The whole idea of a true leader is that he is not only in the thing himself but others are to come forward into the same position.

J.D. He is encouraging Esther in the first features of femininity; that is subjection.

J.T. And love for the people. Why should she

not be a lover of the people? The principle of Christianity is to be a lover.

C.B. Definite committal as with Ruth -- "Thy people shall be my people" (Ruth 1:16).

J.T. The Spirit of God is telling what happened very exactly and it is encouraging to see that Esther does not draw back. If we get right leadership God will be in the matter. The next thing is, "And Hatach came and told Esther the words of Mordecai". No misleading on their side, the matter is plainly, clearly told. It was not wilfulness. "And Esther spoke to Hatach, and gave him commandment unto Mordecai". This is the second commandment as if she is taking up that attitude purposely. That is all very well, but what is needed now is the spirit of suffering, not authority but suffering. "All the king's servants and the people of the king's provinces do know that whoever, whether man or woman, shall come to the king into the inner court, who is not called, there is one law, to put him to death, except such to whom the king shall hold out the golden sceptre, that he may live". Well, did Mordecai not know the law better than she did? This is her cause, but she is certainly holding to the position of avoidance of suffering. Why should you go so far and to such an extreme? Modification is a lie of the devil. Peter would modify the Lord's position. But Mordecai is standing his ground. Not only against the possibility of being put to death, but he is standing his ground against this idea of authority in the queen so that there should be real deep feeling for her people as well as for him. So it says, "There is one law, to put him to death, except such to whom the king shall hold out the golden sceptre, that he may live". She is telling Mordecai the rules of the empire -- well, I expect he knew more than she did about that. "And I have not been called to come in unto the king these thirty days". And this is what he says, "And

Mordecai bade to answer Esther: Imagine not in thy heart that thou shalt escape in the king's house, more than all the Jews. For if thou altogether holdest thy peace at this time, then shall there arise relief and deliverance to the Jews from another place; but thou and thy father's house shall perish. And who knows whether thou art not come to the kingdom for such a time as this?" Is not that a very fine speech? Full of wisdom and force. Who can stand against such wisdom and courage in a leader? She was protecting herself by what he knew as well as she. But he tells her that she will perish and her father's house -- and who knows but perhaps you have come to the kingdom for this very thing. What an opportunity for you. If you do not take this up your queenly position will not save you -- truly you will perish with the rest of us. And it is beautiful to see how she takes up the position and is prepared to live and die for the brethren.

L.E.S. It should be a challenge to us whether our lives are fully committed to the suffering of the testimony.

J.T. There is a lesson here. It is a real challenge!

H.L. Take thy share in suffering.

J.T. Quite so. This is her share.

J.C. Do you think that Mordecai started the leadership in a very simple way by refusing to bow to Haman and as he comes on to this there is more courage and wisdom shown?

J.T. Quite so. He had already taken his life in his hands.

J.C. He would imperil his life and the Jews would take account of that.

J.T. The enemy is to be faced. It is against the devil. He was the power and the king was with him.

D.R. Why does it say, "who knows whether thou art not come to the kingdom for such a time as

this"? Whereas actually Esther came to the kingdom to take the place of Vashti.

J.T. Well, the lawless queen will not come into suffering. There is no love with her. Will the Romish system suffer for the truth? Her very position makes the saints suffer. "I sit a queen and am no widow" (Revelation 18:7). That is her position. No doubt the carrying forward of the idea of Vashti has that result in the natural feminine thought. The natural mind will not accept suffering. Whereas -- Mary -- the word means suffering. The Marys are representative of suffering. It is Marah. The principle belongs to those who love Christ and the brethren.

J.D. Mordecai's leadership really began in chapter 2:20. "Esther, as Mordecai had charged her, had not yet made known her birth nor her people". Under the governmental ways of God Mordecai was looking for a certain moment and training the woman for her place in it.

J.T. Well, look at her now. She is using the word 'command'. It is protection for herself. But suffering is the order of the day now. Is she going to join in it? So it is given to us not only to believe on Him but to suffer for Him. So that "the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife has made herself ready" (Revelation 19:7). She was the wife of the Sufferer -- of the Lamb. That is the idea here. Mordecai is now a type of Christ. He is the sufferer, will she join him?

J.D. It is a challenge!

A.P. Is it answered in Esther's request to Mordecai to fast with all the people?

J.T. Yes. It is remarkable to see that as enlarging on this book. The people of God are disowned outwardly, but nevertheless cared for by God and gradually but surely drawn into the sufferings of Christ -- for that is the divine way. Suffering first and glory afterwards. And so she is in keeping with

that position. Who knows? "Who knows whether thou art not come to the kingdom for such a time as this?" As much as to say, God will help us either by you or someone, but this is your opportunity. It is a real positive argument -- for something will be done -- if she does not do it someone will.

J.F. Would it be the side of teaching with a leader -- the part that Mordecai takes here?

J.T. Why have we got the position we have if we are not come into it for some purpose? The Lord has something in it. It is a wonderful history of grace -- the testimony of God in Christianity. We are sure of how the matter is going to go. The question is, Are we in it?

J.G. In it to preserve life.

L.E.S. In connection with the suffering in Revelation 11 there are two witnesses, two olive trees -- a testimony to their suffering.

J.T. Very good.

G.M. Does the crisis bring out this spirit of suffering as seen in Christ?

J.T. We know that we are in the fellowship not only for protection but the Lord has matters to attend to with us and He needs us. In the crisis are we to be counted upon to go the whole way?

L.E.S. "Which is called spiritually Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified" (Revelation 11:8).

J.T. That is it. We are to suffer for Christ -- to be crucified with Him.

J.D. "These are the two olive trees and the two lamps which stand before the Lord of the earth; and if any one wills to injure them, fire goes out of their mouth, and devours their enemies" (Revelation 11:5). As if there is power in the testimony of God itself.

J.T. And then after they have lain three days and a half in the street of the great city they are taken into heaven. What a result! What a great and

glorious end to suffering! And this is given you. So you see from the incident in Revelation 11 that it is worth while to stand -- not modifying the position but going the whole way with the truth.

C.H.H. So the apostle says, "So that death works in us, but life in you" (2 Corinthians 4:12). That is the situation.

J.T. He says, "For I think that God has set us the apostles for the last, as appointed to death. For we have become a spectacle to the world, both to angels and men". "To the present hour" that is going on. Well, it means suffering and Paul is drawing the Corinthians into it. He was a leader. Mordecai is the leader here. Leadership will not suggest to the young men to avoid suffering to protect themselves, but will urge them to go the whole way in suffering and reproach for the name of Christ and for conscience sake.

R.H. Let them that are wise instruct the many.

A.H. Esther had not been called in to the king -- she will have to take the matter in hand to come into Mordecai's suffering.

J.T. All implying as Mordecai had said that she would not save herself. Her position would not save her.

A.H. There may be a danger with us of feeling the position all right and yet not taking our share in the suffering.

J.T. Moses esteemed the reproach greater riches. Well, now to proceed with Esther. She is coming to it now, thank God. Our thought is that all should come to it, to be out and out with the issue whatever it is and accept the consequences of it. "And Esther bade to answer Mordecai: Go, gather together all the Jews that are found in Shushan, and fast for me and neither eat nor drink three days, night or day: I also and my maidens will fast likewise, and so will I go in unto the king, which is not according to the law;

and if I perish, I perish". She is coming to the true feminine attitude. She has her maidens -- there will be reproach -- fasting in the king's palace. What is the king going to say to that? But she is showing now that she is moving with the current of God. She is not asking them to pray for her. There is no prayer -- God is not recognised in that way. Instead of prayer there is fasting. Prayer is quite acceptable. It is common, too, even with the heathen. But fasting is self-denial. Prayer does not cause that. But fasting comes in here. She would not do well for herself -- it is self-denial. She will not do well for herself but will come under reproach. And then this is what she will do. "And so will I go in unto the king, which is not according to the law; and if I perish, I perish".

R.H. She is not now evading.

J.T. Out and out for God now.

R.H. She can now command Mordecai.

J.T. Well, quite so. "And Mordecai went his way, and did according to all that Esther had commanded him". He bows to her command when she is going the right way. She now has moral power that he will recognise.

J.D. She has calculated judgment -- If I perish, I perish.

J.T. It was really a very serious matter because circumstances were ninety-nine per cent, against them. Haman in such power and the king with him. What can you expect of this? They are really taking their lives in their hands. It is a real thing. God is looking for that in His people.

R.H. Where thou diest I will die.

J.T. It is real womanhood.

J.F. The three Hebrew children went that way.

J.T. Also Daniel when he heard the decree of the king went and prayed as usual, towards Jerusalem -- but they do not pray here -- God is hiding His face

from them. He is telling us now to fast. The issue is real men and women who are able to go all the way in suffering.

L.E.S. "I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience bearing witness with me in the Holy Spirit, that I have great grief and uninterrupted pain in my heart, for I have wished, I myself, to be a curse from the Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen, according to flesh" (Romans 9:1 - 3).

J.T. Just so. Think of a man saying that! He does say that he had wished -- not necessarily now -- but he had wished himself a curse from the Christ.

F.R. What would these three days of fasting involve? Would it be a full witness to the position?

J.T. It is a period of exercise. We have the seven and three here -- full testimony to something. Really pointing to the death of Christ -- three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. The Spirit of God has written this book that the lovers of Christ might see the call for suffering for Him.

P.B. Would Esther here represent the mind and feelings of the brethren when they arrive at and accept the mind of Christ prophetically?

J.T. Esther calls others into it. She suggests that all the Jews in Shushan be brought into it. "Gather together all the Jews that are found in Shushan, and fast for me, and neither eat nor drink three days, night or day". So now the thing is started. You can see God is working. And so it goes on, "And it came to pass on the third day, that Esther put on royal apparel, and stood in the inner court of the king's house". She is going to handle a big matter now -- the king, the king's house -- the rights of the throne. "And it was so, when the king saw the queen Esther standing in the court, that she obtained grace in his sight". It is the work of God. The third chapter is the work of the devil and also Ahasuerus is brought into it. But now the king is

favourable. God is doing it. We look for that.

C.H.H. God turns the heart of the king and we can count on Him to do it.

R.H. Why is there not sackcloth with Esther here?

J.T. She is a wise woman, too. After the suffering is gone through we must look for wisdom. Christ is the wisdom of God and the power of God. It is no place for sackcloth now. The king would be provoked if the queen came before him in sackcloth. She has suitable attire for the king's presence.

C.B. How would this work out with our young men as appearing before tribunals, etc.?

J.T. Well, it is a question of being wise in our attitude. The account of the spirit of the young in Canada is to be curt, unmannerly and disrespectful; it is a well-known thing. In the midst of evil as we stand unmovable we have to suffer and it requires that we judge ourselves and disallow our feelings and act wisely before the authorities, not antagonising them.

J.F. Would that come out in being prepared to take the words that the Government uses in relation to us?

J.T. You mean to call ourselves brethren number four in the way that they call sect. It is not a sect -- it is the assembly of God. But it is the way they call sect. Paul says, "But this I avow to thee, that in the way which they call sect, so I serve my fathers' God" (Acts 24:14).

L.E.S. Do we see the right spirit as Paul stands before Felix, Festus and Agrippa?

J.T. How very courteous and subject his manner was. He knew more than they did and yet he credits the king with knowing all. He addresses Festus as most noble Festus.

R.H. The truth is to be presented attractively.

J.T. The young brothers who will be wise and

suffer for the sake of wisdom will not antagonise unnecessarily.

A.H. Having concern in the suffering that the authorities may take account of us rightly.

J.T. We do not want to go so much into details but in certain places those in high places in Great Britain have used the most encouraging terms regarding the Lord's people because of the right spirit being manifested, of their subjection and respectfulness -- that they will suffer -- they have plenty of greatness inwardly. Well, the fifth chapter is just a continuation of the fourth. "When the king saw queen Esther standing in the court, that she obtained grace in his sight". Well, the tide is turning -- the devil is defeated through her wisdom, undoubtedly through the fasting. God has respect to that.

Rem. A right lead is given by Mordecai and the brethren are unified in following it up.

J.T. If there is a right lead it should be followed up. It only confuses the authorities when So-and-so has a different view from you. And why have a different view from the brethren because the truth is the truth, and if a lead is given follow it.

Rem. Right conditions have been brought about and Mordecai now turns around and submits himself to Esther.

J.T. Because when the truth comes out in the commands of the queen, he loves to do them.

T.D. It is the decision that she arrived at -- If I perish, I perish, which gives her courage to move forward, to die for the brethren if necessary.

J.T. Attaching herself to the leader given of God.

J.G. And bringing all the Jews into the matter.

J.T. The voice from the altar in Revelation 6:10 says, "How long, O sovereign Ruler, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell upon the earth?". This is from the souls under the altar who had been slain for the

testimony of God. And they are told to wait for the others, their companions in suffering. And so they obtain a better resurrection.

F.R. Paul says, I die daily.

J.T. Well, you expect that. It is nothing new. Peter says, Do not regard it as new. So it goes on to say, "And the king said to Esther, What wilt thou, queen Esther?" Queen -- that is her position. She is queenly and womanly now -- a sufferer. God is evidently honouring her. So the king says, "And what is thy request? it shall be given thee even to the half of the kingdom". All this means a way out. God has now come in and the king is completely in favour of what is right.

Rem. Would God make a way of escape now?

J.T. Well, it may be that we have not fasted. If we fasted more, we would get more. Maybe this idea of fasting is what we need.

J.D. Would Philippians 2:17, "But if also I am poured out as a libation on the sacrifice and ministration of your faith, I rejoice", be somewhat akin to Esther's word, "If I perish, I perish"?

J.T. "Poured out as a libation", that is a beautiful thought. That is the offering of oneself for a libation. Paul would fully complete the thought of going the whole way in suffering. The three mighty men broke through to get the water for David. David says, I will not drink but offer it as a libation to God. They risked their lives -- he could not drink that water. We shall have to take up the subject, God willing, tomorrow, from chapter 5:4.

READINGS ON THE BOOK OF ESTHER (4)

Esther 6:1 - 14; Esther 7:1 - 10

J.T. A question arises in this book which has not been noted so far. Why should Mordecai be so definite from the outset in refusing to bow to Haman? As Haman comes into evidence in chapter 3 it is said, "But Mordecai bowed not nor did him reverence". And Haman notices that himself and is especially filled with fury on that account, we are told. But in view of the present application we have been making of this book we should see that divine principles, however old they are, do not change, but come down. Haman was, as we are told, the son of Hammedatha, the Agagite -- Agag undoubtedly representing the Amalekite which Saul should have destroyed and which Samuel did destroy. He appears here and without any earlier intimation mentioned. Mordecai refuses to bow to him. Although he evidently knew that it involved danger, he steadily refuses to bow and thus excites the enemy. I think it gives us a lead that a divine principle in a crisis, however unapparently connected with the crisis, should be maintained, not overlooked, but maintained.

J.D. Do you think that Mordecai, under God, was honouring the law of Exodus 17 against the Amalekite? In the governmental ways of God he comes in with that principle of God and will not bow to Amalek.

J.T. I think that thought would link it with Samuel's day. When the matter came up with Saul in the destroying of the Amalekites, we have 'words' mentioned. "And Samuel said to Saul, Jehovah sent me to anoint thee king over his people, over Israel: now therefore hearken to the voice of the words of Jehovah" (1 Samuel 15:1). The 'words' are

details, not mere general principles, but details. And clearly Mordecai had not forgotten the details. Saul thought that he had the matter well in hand in a general way in destroying, as he thought, the Amalekites. But Samuel says to him, "What means then this bleating of sheep in mine ears, and the lowing of oxen which I hear?" Well, Samuel had in his mind that they were 'words' of Jehovah including all the details regarding this matter. Whereas Saul thought that generalities would suffice, and allowed natural feelings to enter into the matter and spared Agag. But in verse 32 we read, "And Samuel said, Bring ye near to me Agag the king of Amalek. And Agag came to him gaily". Evidently refined and wealthy. "And Agag said, Surely the bitterness of death is past. And Samuel said, As thy sword has made women childless, so shall thy mother be childless above women. And Samuel hewed Agag in pieces before Jehovah in Gilgal". I was thinking, too, of what has been said about Exodus 17. The divine banner has been unfurled against Amalek and is there from generation to generation. And clearly Mordecai has this in mind. He had not forgotten. That is in these circumstances we are not befogged and confused. Our safety lies in observing divine principles in detail.

C.B. In Balaam's prophecy we have the thought of a shout of a king being in the midst of them. That is a king higher than Agag.

J.T. That is another scripture that bears on this. Mordecai comes to be higher than Haman -- it is a question of power. Balaam speaks of a shout of a king amongst the brethren, amongst the saints. Well, it is a question of power, kingly power even in reproach. Indeed, the king is in reproach and so are the brethren but the shout of a king is there.

C.H.H. Would the ministry of Paul in Colosse correspond with what is seen here in dealing with

Agag -- dealing with the flesh -- in order to make everything of Christ?

J.T. I am sure. That is the full thing. It is the whole matter there in Colosse. "The putting off of the body of the flesh, in the circumcision of the Christ" (Colossians 2:11). It fits in with what has been said as to going the whole way. Our safety lies in going the whole way as to any principle governing us. So Mordecai clearly is upright here. He is able to lift up his head -- no shame. The salvation is for the head. "Lift up your heads". Instead of shame and fear stand upright in the presence of the enemy! And thus appear before the authorities, as we had yesterday, the principles governing us as we appear before them. As Esther -- she puts on proper apparel. So that we are dealing with actual circumstances and what is becoming in them. It was becoming that she should appear before the king in royal apparel. The question of royalty comes in. And this comes into our circumstances -- spiritual royalty and magnificence and they include power. "And it came to pass on the third day, that Esther put on royal apparel, and stood in the inner court of the king's house, over against the king's house. And the king sat upon his royal throne in the royal house, over against the entrance to the house. And it was so, when the king saw the queen Esther standing in the court, that she obtained grace in his sight". That is the position. It is royalty, and splendour in the queen, knowing how to observe her share in the royalty. She is owned as queen. So the king says, "What wilt thou, queen Esther? and what is thy request? it shall be given thee even to the half of the kingdom". We have the half of the kingdom offered to such a person as this. It is a question of the way we appear before the great ones, and whether the golden sceptre is extended in recognition. They claim royalty, of course. Here is a man in supreme rule

-- our life is in his hands, as it were. It is a question of what is there in connection with Daniel's image. The queen is equal to that. The saints are equal morally, too, as Daniel, Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego were.

L.E.S. Referring again to Peter, "But ye are a chosen race, a kingly priesthood, a holy nation, a people for a possession, that ye might set forth the excellencies of him who has called you out of darkness to his wonderful light" (1 Peter 2:9).

J.T. Quite so. It is a chosen race and kingly priesthood here.

L.E.S. "That ye might set forth the excellencies of him".

J.T. That is just it -- the queenly, feminine side. That idea enters into the position -- the apparel of the queen. Which all brings about, as we might say, the favour that God gives. God can do that.

J.D. If we feel the thing that is happening, some of those features will come out as we are before the authorities.

A.P. Does not this side come out in Proverbs, as we learn to wait upon wisdom, knowledge and instruction?

J.T. Yes, it is a sign of that -- of those subjective qualities.

Rem. Paul before Agrippa displayed such qualities.

J.T. Yes. It would seem by the general position that the court was favourable in the main. Thank God for that! "This man might have been let go if he had not appealed to Caesar" (Acts 26:32). Well, evidently there was some sympathetic atmosphere there with Paul and that was moral victory. The rigour of the voyage was greatly modified because Paul was in favour with them and he finally becomes master of the ship.

G.M. Would you pray for favour in the sight of these men?

J.T. You get it in Nehemiah 2:4,5, "So I prayed to the God of the heavens. And I said to the king ..." And he got his request -- the queen was by the king.

R.H. Would it be right to connect the thought of piety in Timothy with these thoughts?

J.T. Very good. "That thou mayest know how one ought to conduct oneself in God's house, which is the assembly of the living God, the pillar and base of the truth" (1 Timothy 3:15). Well, that is in the assembly -- the greatest requirements -- we must respect them.

R.H. And so it says, "It is necessary that he should have also a good testimony from those without" (1 Timothy 3:7).

J.T. Now to go on to the feasts of Esther. In chapter 2 we have Esther's feast given by the king. Now we have two feasts. There had been one feast made for her and now she makes two feasts. We must read this chapter in the light of the wisdom of Esther, because it is a question of the enemy. The king now is in favour. The king is in favour up to the half of his kingdom. She has gone a long way and has a great advantage. God gives us these advantages. But we want to exploit them, not allow them to fall to the ground. "And Esther answered and said, My petition and my request is, If I have found grace in the sight of the king, and if it please the king to grant my petition, and to perform my request, let the king and Haman come to the banquet that I shall prepare for them, and I will do tomorrow according to the king's word". Now we have something to look into here. Why did she not take advantage of the opportunity? Wisdom is operative. It gives her immense power and she wants to consolidate that power and not hasten unduly in the matter. Let the position be consolidated. Well, this is what Esther does. She is not in a hurry, but making the best of the position to use it. Now it is for the brethren to see the importance of waiting and using

wisdom. As God gives the opportunity, to make the most of it.

C.H.H. Does it allow the government of God on evil to fully develop?

J.T. It seems as if God is in the matter in an unseen way as the circle is gradually reducing to Esther the king and Haman. It is gradually reducing to one man -- Haman. Is he wise? The devil is not wise. He is short-sighted. Haman is very short-sighted! You marvel that he did not observe that something was against him. But he does not. He goes into his house and tells his wife and his friends of all his glory and riches. "And Haman told them of the glory of his riches, and the multitude of his children, and all wherein the king had promoted him, and how he had advanced him above the princes and servants of the king. And Haman said, Yea, Esther the queen let no man come in with the king to the banquet that she had prepared but myself; and tomorrow also I am invited to her with the king". Well now, see how dense he is! Think of what is against him and he did not sense it. We are to face the devil. The apostle says, Resist him. Because there are great weaknesses in the devil's activities and the spiritual observe them. Folly shows itself in them. The time of the second feast indeed brings out his folly and especially the using of the gallows he himself had made.

Ques. Is this the result of the three days fasting?

J.T. That is where wisdom comes in. There is not a word about prayer here, but it is fasting. That is the point. Perhaps if we fasted as much as we prayed there would be more accomplished.

J.D. "And Haman went forth that day joyful and glad of heart; but when Haman saw Mordecai in the king's gate, that he stood not up nor moved for him, he was full of fury against Mordecai". You

wonder that Haman did not sense then that something was going on.

J.T. It is wonderful the non-discernment of the enemy. God instructs us as to the kind of enemy that we have to deal with -- he proceeds on lines and is unable to foresee how he can be overcome. And we are to be instructed in the principles of war -- to know and observe the antagonist and thus it comes out that he is being overcome and does not know it. Why did he not sense something in this woman? What is all this about? Why is she so favourable? Does he not know anything about Esther? Have his spies not found out about this woman? Apparently not.

P.B. Satan does not discern the spiritual.

J.T. "But the spiritual discerns all things, and he is discerned of no one" (1 Corinthians 2:15).

R.H. The Colossian thought of Esther is, "In which are hid all the treasures of wisdom and of knowledge" (Colossians 2:3).

J.T. She is going on with great skill. And the tide is turning in her favour and the king evidently is now. He is making up his mind about Haman and it is there when the time comes, The king is something that God respects, like Pilate. The Lord replies to Pilate. "Thou hadst no authority whatever against me if it were not given to thee from above" (John 19:11). The Lord spoke to Pilate -- talked to him. Haman is unable to discern what is going on and Esther is not discerned, she has the recognition of the king. The war is against Haman, the conflict is against him and he is not sensible to it.

J.D. It was of God that Haman controlled himself. God in His government is handling the situation. "When Haman saw Mordecai in the king's gate, that he stood not up nor moved for him, he was full of fury against Mordecai. But Haman controlled himself and came home". It was all in God's governmental ways to bring him to the real issue.

J.T. It would have spoiled the position if he had been allowed to show his real feelings then.

L.E.S. The sinister movements of the enemy in Corinth were discerned by Paul and exposed by him.

J.T. He was cognisant of what was there. He knew of it. Another thing is divine agencies. God has His agents here. The king is brought in as one of them. Haman is not able to discern that the tide is turned against him. We are to exploit that -- what is successful -- keep on with it. She is now on the feast matter. And it gives her time to fully exploit the advantage. She knew exactly what was going on.

R.H. Does this waiting until tomorrow suggest the need of patience in these matters?

J.T. In Numbers 16:16 we get, "And Moses said to Korah. Be thou and all thy band before Jehovah, thou, and they, and Aaron, tomorrow". Why not today? It is patience. We have to give time for things to work out. It is tomorrow -- not today. Tomorrow takes twenty-four hours for the earth to go around. It requires movement. Now something is going on, while the culprit does not discern anything at all. It takes time for things to work out as in the rebellion of Korah and the matter is put over until tomorrow in each case. And tomorrow brings out that the almond rod of Aaron's budded, blossomed and brought forth almonds -- it takes time. It usually takes months; that it should only take a night was a miracle, but still it took some time. And then time implies patience on our part, waiting for God to work. So these two feasts are to be observed -- to the natural mind it may be unnecessary detail -- but it shows wisdom is operative. This woman had come into these things by her fasting -- self-denial -- Haman was discerned in full and did not see that the current was against him.

C.H.H. This principle of waiting is an important principle. Our dispensation is the waiting period.

J.T. The presence of the Spirit here is just in that setting. And it is the same setting in regard of every principle. You have to realise the need of the Spirit. Many expect that it is automatic, but it is not. It never was. A divine principle enters into it. We are to fully realise the need of the Spirit.

F.R. Is this principle seen in relation to Lazarus? The Lord did not go to him immediately.

J.T. That is a good illustration. And see what effect it had on both Mary and Martha -- it was a question of divine glory. "This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God may be glorified by it" (John 11:4). Both the Father and the Son are to be glorified. So it is well worth waiting for.

L.E.S. Does it fit in here that one great feature of John's gospel is "on the morrow"?

J.T. Yes, that is the thought. It is what the morrow signifies. Each morrow brings out something issuing in the millennium -- the third day. The Lord says, "Go, tell that fox, Behold, I cast out demons and accomplish cures today and to-morrow, and the third day I am perfected" (Luke 13:32).

J.D. The Lord speaks of a divine principle in John 11. "This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God". The Lord had God's glory in view. And so it is here.

J.T. I think so. The two feasts are like two days -- He remained two days where He was, so that Lazarus should be buried. And Lazarus had been four days buried to bring out the corruption that had set in. Showing that He has power to raise the dead -- whether dead two thousand years or four days, it makes no difference.

A.P. Is the attitude of Esther the standing attitude of Ephesians?

J.T. "Having done all to stand" (Ephesians 6:13). Standing in

the sense of resistance. Well now, the time is well filled up with these two feasts. Esther probably had a retinue of cooks -- but these are Esther's feasts -- what she is doing. And the king does not say, No, I have a great many military or political matters to look after. No, Esther is prevailing. What she wants is accomplished. And so it says in verse 13, "Yet all this is of no avail to me so long as I see Mordecai the Jew sitting at the king's gate. Then said Zeresh his wife and all his friends to him". There is the woman again. She is there in the making of these gallows. But the end is that he himself is hanged on the tree. Not the man of God, Mordecai, but Haman. The Lord Jesus hung on a tree to accomplish redemption. He was made sin -- a curse -- for us. Most solemn consideration! Well, it goes on, "Then said Zeresh his wife and all his friends to him, Let a gallows be made of fifty cubits high". That is seventy-five feet which is a very imposing thing. His wife suggests this -- she brings in the feminine as in these circumstances. Democracy is very cautious to bring in the feminine side; they say the voice of the people is the voice of God. That is not true. Because you get the worst possible from the voice of the people.

J.G. Jezebel urged on Ahab.

J.T. It says that Haman's wife and friends advised this. "Let a gallows be made of fifty cubits high, and in the morning speak to the king that Mordecai may be hanged on it". Another morning. They have the idea of the morning. But no recognition of God in it. Haman had no such idea. It does not fit with what he has in mind. "And in the morning speak to the king that Mordecai may be hanged on it; then go in merrily with the king to the banquet". He is thoroughly in this. So the scene is fixed for the final act, the second feast. And in the interim the chronicles are brought in. "On that night sleep fled from the king. And he commanded to bring the

book of records of the chronicles; and they were read before the king. And it was found written, that Mordecai had told of Bigthana and Teresh, two of the king's chamberlains, keepers of the threshold, who had sought to lay hand on king Ahasuerus. And the king said, What honour and dignity has been done to Mordecai for this? and the king's servants that attended upon him said, Nothing has been done for him. And the king said, Who is in the court? Now Haman had come into the outward court of the king's house to speak to the king to hang Mordecai on the gallows that he had prepared for him. And the king's servants said to him, Behold, Haman is standing in the court. And the king said, Let him come in. So Haman came in. And the king said to him, What is to be done with the man whom the king delights to honour?" That is refined cruelty -- righteous cruelty is being made to bear upon him. He has to adorn Mordecai and put him on the king's horse. A remarkable turn of circumstances!

T.D. The enemy is planning the destruction of Mordecai, but certain circumstances turn in his favour.

J.T. That is what comes out here. The servants have a ready answer to the king's enquiry about Mordecai. They are not against him. When the tide turns, so to speak, everything is favourable to what is right. But we have to learn all this. Chapter 4 is the secret of the whole matter. We have to learn to fast.

J.F. Is learning to fast the principle of wisdom as in Esther? God takes up the thought in that sleep goes from the king.

J.T. That is the turning point, God takes sleep from the king and causes the attempted assassination to bring Mordecai into evidence -- to bring things before the king -- for the hour of the crisis is approaching.

L.E.S. So the word is to fast in a day like this when it is so easy to do otherwise.

J.T. We have prayed much and should keep on praying, but perhaps where we fail is fasting -- that is, self-denial. Not simply ordinary worldly things, but denying ourselves of legitimate things. "But this kind does not go out but by prayer and fasting" (Matthew 17:21). The question we are to answer is: What does fasting mean? It is self-denial of what is legitimate.

J.G. "All things are lawful to me, but all things do not profit" (1 Corinthians 6:12).

J.T. The apostle lived in an attitude of self-denial of legitimate things.

C.B. Fasting calls for sacrifice.

J.T. Things which appeal to the appetite are denied in fasting.

D.R. "Have we not a right to take round a sister as wife?" (1 Corinthians 9:5).

J.T. He had rights -- was it not right for him to be a married man? All the apostles were married except himself.

Ques. Is not God bringing to light in testimony what belongs to Him in the young men as they stand true, and is He not bringing to light treasure?

J.T. He is. This treasure is what is brought out of the work of God and that is what we are concerned about. It is coming out here in Esther. These are her chapters more than they are Mordecai's. Mordecai led in the matter but now she is in the front row. She is the spearhead in this conflict. And she is acting wisely. It is a question of self-denial and wisdom so that we have power. We have strength.

P.B. The king speaks to Haman first and Haman never gets an opportunity to speak about the hanging of Mordecai.

J.T. It is a matter of the want of sleep. The king

knew very little about fasting, but God comes in and makes him fast for sleep. Sometimes we fast for sleep and God makes known His mind in the sleepless hours of the night. Here the king is compelled to fast for sleep and these things come into his mind -- he wants to read the book of the chronicles -- and so he finds things out about Mordecai. God designed this. The king is denied sleep. But God intended him to use those sleepless hours to look into the book of chronicles. And what chronicles there are of the doings of the saints! What delightful manifestations of the work of God at the judgment-seat of Christ, when everything will be displayed of the things done in the body! Well, this is one of the acts of Mordecai. It is in the chronicles and the king hears it and wants to know about it. What reward had been given Mordecai? And of course this all is in view of the destruction of Haman. Mordecai is now coming into evidence.

R.H. Is all this detail intended to show the absolute accuracy of God's ways? "My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways" (Isaiah 55:8).

J.T. What happened in the interim -- in the night season! The morrow is going to bring out the decision as to Haman.

A.H. The counsel of Hushai defeated the counsel of Ahithophel. God is working to effect what is in His mind in every case.

J.T. He defeated the good counsel of Ahithophel. So that the servants here knew the answer to the enquiry -- What has been done for this man? Nothing has been done. The saints do not get much, you know, in this world, unless something happens to force recognition of their good deeds. But there is no great effort to bring them to light. It was in reading this book of chronicles that the king was made to ask about Mordecai and the servants told him

immediately that nothing had been done for him. And then the king says, Who is in the court?

D.R. Would the servants represent the men in the parliaments trying to see that justice is done?

J.T. It might be that. There is always someone that will come forward to witness to what is right especially after the king's sleepless night. So these servants knew that nothing had been done for Mordecai. How did they know? They must have had some sympathy with Mordecai.

L.E.S. "As unknown, and well known; as dying, and behold, we live; as disciplined, and not put to death; as grieved, but always rejoicing; as poor, but enriching many; as having nothing, and possessing all things" (2 Corinthians 6:9,10).

J.T. You can see as already has been alluded to, how Paul had the sympathy of and was in favour with, the centurion. The preservation from the massacre showed that he wanted to spare Paul.

A.H. With regard to Paul appealing to Caesar -- would we see these features and qualities of suffering with Paul?

J.T. Well, that is the thing. There is work to be done in the saints, they are the theatre of God's operations. The prayer meetings are where we speak to God, but the fasting meetings are another matter. And the Lord tells us it is prayer and fasting that is needed.

J.F. Fasting is needed as well as prayer. You have spoken of prayer meetings and now it is fasting in a collective way, too.

J.T. We need help on the self-denial of legitimate things. Fasting makes room for the Spirit.

L.E.S. We are tested in the holiday season -- how we fill up our days in view of the gravity of matters. It is a day-by-day matter.

J.T. I am sure that is right. Holiday seasons are defiling. These resorts that men provide for humanity are surely marked by defilement. Fasting

would be denying yourself of legitimate things. Well, you have to have a holiday sometime -- but time is short. The more spiritual a person is the greater their sense of time -- there is so much to be done in the Lord's things.

R.H. It is a matter of fasting night and day.

J.T. Chapters 6 and 7 bring that out, and bring out the issue between the devil and the people of God as represented in Mordecai and Esther. So this is an immense advantage to Mordecai. It is not by any current event, but a historical event, the recognition of things in earlier days. Now these things come down in his favour. It was an earlier, historical matter. Now he is honoured. "And Haman answered the king, For the man whom the king delights to honour, let the royal apparel be brought with which the king arrays himself, and the horse that the king rides upon, and on the head of which the royal crown is set; and let the apparel and horse be delivered unto the hand of one of the king's most noble princes, and let them array the man whom the king delights to honour, and cause him to ride on the horse through the street of the city, and proclaim before him, Thus shall it be done to the man whom the king delights to honour! And the king said to Haman, Make haste, take the apparel and the horse, as thou hast said, and do so to Mordecai the Jew, who sits at the king's gate; let nothing fail of all that thou hast said. And Haman took the apparel and the horse, and arrayed Mordecai, and caused him to ride through the street of the city, and proclaimed before him, Thus shall it be done to the man whom the king delights to honour!" So that God is giving through this incident, which is a historical one, an opportunity for Mordecai to be rightly owned. And God is doing these things now.

C.B. Mordecai stood for the rights of the throne and now he is being recognised. Would you say that

the Lord stood for the rights of the throne of God -- and representatively that is our position today?

J.T. That is just the truth. "Wherefore also God highly exalted him, and granted him a name, that which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of heavenly and earthly and infernal beings, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to God the Father's glory" (Philippians 2:9 - 11). That is the outcome of His passion -- God has honoured Him. Then (verses 5 - 8), "Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus; who, subsisting in the form of God, did not esteem it an object of rapine to be on an equality with God; but emptied himself, taking a bondman's form, taking his place in the likeness of men; and having been found in figure as a man, humbled himself, becoming obedient even unto death, and that the death of the cross". And then we have that God has highly exalted Him. These things are foreshadowed here, in how Mordecai rises in greatness and glory as we shall see in the next meeting, but here we have the issue with Haman. This is the second feast. "And the king and Haman came to drink with Esther the queen". She is in every instance the queen now. "And the king said again to Esther on the second day, at the banquet of wine, What is thy petition, queen Esther? and it shall be granted thee; and what is thy request? even to the half of the kingdom it shall be done". So the king has not changed his mind. The matter is established. "And Esther the queen answered and said, If I have found grace in thy sight, O king, and if it please the king, let my life be given me at my petition, and my people at my request; for we are sold, I and my people". Could she not have made a speech like this on the first day? But God made her greater in the interim. This matter involving Mordecai greatly strengthened Esther. The general position is better, the tide is turning and God is in it.

L.E.S. It is not now, 'If I perish', but "My people".

J.T. She is identifying herself with the people of God, great as she is.

A.P. The wisdom is manifest in connection with the fasting with the people.

J.T. Well, no doubt, fasting is the power. God is strengthening Esther's position -- not placing Mordecai at the bottom as was in the mind of Haman -- but placing him in the supreme place. It is wonderful the way God comes in for us.

J.D. Does this place of favour allude to Christ's place as glorified?

J.T. Quite so. Mordecai goes back to the gate.

R.H. Is the end of verse 4 the greatness of God's people universally?

J.T. What fine words she uses here. She is identifying herself with the people. "We are sold, I and my people". Not the Jews, but, "My people". "To be destroyed, to be slain, and to perish. But if we had been sold for bondmen and bondwomen, I had held my tongue, although the adversary could not compensate the king's damage". The immense gift of twenty million cannot make up for the damage -- the damage to the king -- he cannot compensate it. "And king Ahasuerus spoke and said to Esther the queen, Who is he, and where is he that has filled his heart to do so?" He is thoroughly aroused now. God is working. Wrath is coming up, the wrath of the king, as Proverbs says.

J.D. If all the saints in Vancouver were to be slain, what would Vancouver do? What would be the king's damage -- the damage to the people of Vancouver if the saints were taken away?

J.T. That is looking at the thing in a concrete way -- Vancouver's damage could not be compensated.

D.R. If sold for bondmen and bondwomen in

ways in which the people can help the government, it would be all right.

J.T. "I had held my tongue" then. But it is the destruction of them that she cannot stand. And the king's wrath comes up. She profits there. "And Esther said, The adversary and enemy is this wicked Haman". Wonderful strength and courage in her words. She is exploiting her advantage now, not modifying things, making it easier for the devil or ourselves in that sense. "Then Haman was terrified before the king and the queen". Power in a dual sense -- the people of God bring that out -- the power of the king and the queen. That will be in the millennium, there will be the Jews honoured upon earth -- the queen in gold of Ophir on His right hand. The heavenly city, of course, is the queen. We are being prepared for these things in this book.

J.D. Haman makes request for his life to the queen.

J.T. The queen has power now.

R.H. Is that the second established?

J.T. That is the idea. The care meeting is the place of terror for evildoers.

C.B. Felix trembled.

L.E.S. Esther calls him -- this wicked Haman -- the adversary, the enemy. It is like the titles of Satan in Revelation.

J.T. Just so. The courage in her words! "The adversary and enemy is this wicked Haman". The book of Revelation brings out all the titles of the devil.

Well, God willing, we will have just one more season -- the final acts in this drama, of the two feasts of Esther. All leads up to the glory of Christ and the assembly or the glory of Christ and the Jews in the remaining chapters.

READINGS ON THE BOOK OF ESTHER (5)

Esther 8:1 - 17; Esther 10:1 - 3

J.D. I would like to ask how you regard the apparent heartlessness of this Persian monarch with this man whom he had promoted above all others and with whom he had drunk. Would it set out that the principles found in man's world, in Satan's world, do not stand, as we have come to now? And all this makes room for the governmental ways of God in the establishing of His principles.

J.T. That is true, no doubt. For while the king represents God's authority, it also shows how God uses the fickleness of the person. God can use anyone. Even Balaam, one of the worst men, is used to say the greatest things of the people. And immediately afterwards he teaches Balak to cast a stumbling-block before the children of Israel. So that while instrumentalities that God uses may represent peculiarly certain things of Christ Himself and God Himself, at the same time they are just men. This brings out what God can do. So that I think we see in this man's base fickleness and readiness to turn either to good or evil, what God can do in such circumstances. And, of course, what rulers were then they are now. They are fickle and exposed to political influences of every sort. So that we depend upon God every moment. There is nothing fixed in this world -- no assurance in their promises. Whereas with God He is working out His mind -- His government is stable and He would draw us into that stability. "Now he that establishes us with you in Christ, ... is God" (2 Corinthians 1:21). There is stability. He establishes us. And that is what we may see in these three chapters. The seventh is important -- dealing with how the king is brought thoroughly into

the right side of the matter. So that his wrath rose up -- he was thoroughly aroused, as if representing the wrath of God itself. Now we have the destruction of Haman. So it says, "So they hanged Haman on the gallows that he had prepared for Mordecai". That is the end of chapter 7. And then chapters 8 to 10 are occupied with the feminine in all this -- the establishing of it. Not exactly much added greatness to Esther but added greatness to Mordecai. For what God has in mind is Christ, the male side in all this. Mordecai represents that and there is certain authority with him. Chapter 10 has only three verses and all about Mordecai. That is where our minds are left.

G.A. Is there any parallel in this chapter with Matthew 28 where the angel has the stone rolled away and is seen sitting on it?

J.T. Well, there is that. Satan has been overthrown. The resurrection of Christ implies that. So that in Romans 16:20 we have, "But the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly". That means that what was reached through the death of Christ was rapid and quick -- from the divine side the matter is settled, but it takes time to reach it in us -- for it is under our feet. We have to be ready with our feet to trample on the devil when God gives us the opportunity. So we have the idea in the third of Genesis -- his head is to be bruised. We have to be in readiness with our feet for that purpose. And these chapters show that Mordecai and Esther and the Jews were to be in readiness with their feet to bruise the devil and the wicked one. Not only Haman but his progeny -- his ten sons. So in this chapter it is said, "On that day did king Ahasuerus give the house of Haman the Jews' oppressor to Esther the queen. And Mordecai came before the king; for Esther had told what he was to her. And the king took off his ring, which he had taken from Haman, and gave it to Mordecai. And

Esther set Mordecai over the house of Haman". So there is the complete displacement of Satan's emissary by Esther and Mordecai. The king now knows who the queen is. The family is now brought into evidence, pointing to the day when the Jews will be exalted, taking the place of other elements of opposition.

J.D. What would you say as to Esther and Mordecai being given this place as under Ahasuerus? Is it the feminine side recognising the male side?

J.T. It is a question of the Jews, someone representing Christ in relation to the Jews. In the millennium Christ comes out in many relations -- in relation to the assembly -- in relation to the Jews, and in other relations -- King of kings and Lord of lords. We have this typified in Mordecai.

F.R. The position is consolidated as they go. They have the house of Haman given to them. Then Esther proceeds with her concern in relation to her people.

J.T. That is just what is brought out here. The position is established and then we have a new chapter. "And Esther spoke yet again before the king, and fell down at his feet, and besought him with tears to put away the mischief of Haman the Agagite, and his device which he had devised against the Jews. And the king held out the golden sceptre toward Esther. And Esther arose and stood before the king, and said, If it please the king and if I have found grace before him, and the thing seem right to the king, and I be pleasing in his sight, let it be written to reverse the letters devised by Haman the son of Hammedatha the Agagite, which he wrote to destroy the Jews that are in all the king's provinces. For how shall I endure to see the evil that shall befall my people? and how shall I endure to see the destruction of my kindred? And king Ahasuerus said to queen Esther and to Mordecai the Jew, Behold, I

have given Esther the house of Haman, and him they have hanged upon the gallows, because he stretched forth his hand against the Jews. Write ye then for the Jews as seems good to you, in the king's name, and seal it with the king's ring. For a writing that is written in the king's name, and sealed with the king's ring, cannot be reversed". Considerable time may have elapsed. This is a new movement. Esther and Mordecai were exploiting to the full the advantage that God had given to what is right, which is an important matter. Do not settle down half-way, but go the whole way in exploiting the advantage God gives His people.

A.H. "Now is the judgment of this world; now shall the prince of this world be cast out" (John 12:31).

J.T. "And I, if I be lifted up out of the earth, will draw all to me" (John 12:32). Now it is a question of how Esther and especially Mordecai is coming in to secure a position of importance and influence. Verse 3 brings in a further matter and Esther resorts to falling before the king. It is a question of whether her influence is going to continue. She is dealing with a fickle man but she is continuing and becoming greater and greater in her wisdom and consolidation of what she has taken on. This chapter and the next show the position is consolidated and the advantage increases to the servants of God. For although God is not mentioned there is another feast and chapter 9 is full of joy. And the tenth chapter shows that Mordecai's position as representative of Christ is fixed. "And all the acts of his power and of his might, and the declaration of the greatness of Mordecai, to which the king advanced him, are they not written in the book of the chronicles of the kings of Media and Persia? For Mordecai the Jew was second to king Ahasuerus, and great among the Jews, and accepted of the multitude of his brethren, seeking the welfare of his people, and speaking peace to all

his seed". That is fixed -- written in the chronicles. Not only the acts of the king upon the throne, but Mordecai's own position as second to the king. As Joseph was second to Pharaoh and Christ is second to God. That is the position to be reached in our souls in this enquiry, the position which will be reached in the millennium.

L.E.S. Somewhat like the latter part of Ezekiel -- the prince as seen in the division of the inheritance.

J.T. Very like that. David is seen there as the prince. It is a question of personality in Ezekiel -- the full idea of King of kings and Lord of lords. A prince is surely personality -- the moral greatness of the prince. So that David is a type.

C.H.H. Before the establishing of that, is the principle with us important as in Timothy -- that of separating from iniquity -- withdrawing from it? First from Haman as a person and then his devices.

J.T. The awful effects of Haman are here so that we see how Esther is agonising that every trace of Haman and his deeds should be effaced, that there should be a reversal. So that John tells us that the Lord Jesus came to undo the works of the devil. Not only the devil himself annulled, but his works annulled in ourselves -- in persons.

L.E.S. So in the preceding chapter Esther refers to Haman as the adversary and the enemy, not Haman the Agagite, as in this chapter.

J.T. Well, that shows that she is in sympathy with Mordecai's determination, seen in refusing to bow to him. She is brought into that -- a first principle. It came down from the battle of Rephidim when the conflict began between God and His people, and Satan. She is now brought into that, Mordecai led her into it. So she is thoroughly in the thing now.

R.H. What is involved in the fact that the edicts cannot be reversed and a new edict is given which

permits the Jews to gather together and stand for their lives?

J.T. It brings out that things are not settled by announcement merely, but by their own power. The Jews are evidently brought into the thing to stand against certain enemies themselves. It is in mind here that Haman is dead but the fruit of his work remains. "And king Ahasuerus said to queen Esther and to Mordecai the Jew, Behold, I have given Esther the house of Haman, and him they have hanged upon the gallows, because he stretched forth his hand against the Jews". The king is thoroughly with them now. "Write ye then for the Jews as seems good to you, in the king's name, and seal it with the king's ring". So the matter is now in their hands. Well, can they exploit any advantage? When God gives us an advantage, we are to make the most of it.

J.D. After God gives Saul into the hand of David, in the next chapter David says, I shall one day perish by the hand of Saul. David did not fully exploit the position.

J.T. That is true. He brought himself into a false position -- he went to the Philistines and lost heart. He said in his heart, "I shall now perish one day by the hand of Saul". That is a poor thing! God says something in His heart in Genesis 8:21, but it is nothing like that. God said in His heart, when He smelled the sweet savour from Noah's sacrifice, "I will no more henceforth curse the ground on account of Man, for the thought of Man's heart is evil from his youth". I just wanted to say a word on exploiting for God, because a moral advantage is given David there, he refused to put Saul to death, but then his heart fails him and he says, I will one day perish by the hand of Saul. If God gives an advantage as He does today, for all that is happening has the saints in mind, God will develop something

for them in this book. The point is, Are we ready to make the most of any advantage we get?

W.M. It is like a blank cheque given to Esther and Mordecai. "Write ye then for the Jews as seems good to you".

J.T. The Lord gave the apostles a blank cheque, "Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted to them" (John 20:23). He gave them the opportunity to show grace and they used it, too. Peter used it to the Jews in Acts 2. And today in the assembly any advantage that God gives should be exploited to the full. Even to the smallest particle of it. Use everything, as we have in this book. So take the Reformation, God gave a death blow to the devil in Rome. It was a terrible blow to Rome when Luther and others came in. But how was the advantage used? That is the point. They did not go the whole length at the time of the Reformation.

L.E.S. Is the recovery of the truth as we have it today, the full exploiting of the position?

J.T. Yes. Exactly. Luther did not go the whole way -- he still had the idea of a state church. And that idea is everywhere in Europe. The idea of a state church is everywhere in Christendom. So the opportunity is lost and the devil gets a footing again. The point for us is that if God gives us an advantage, can we use it? Are our feet waiting to trample on Haman? Because God will bruise Satan under your feet shortly. He has already been trampled under foot in the death of Christ, but we have to come into that. We have to be ready with our feet to trample on the devil.

C.H.H. In exploiting the advantages in respect of the authorities as standing for our consciences, we support the government in buying War bonds and the like.

J.T. Anything supporting the government is right abstractly, we should be able to discern what is

of the devil. In Romans 16:20 God says, that He will bruise Satan under our feet. It reads "under your feet". I think we have the light to see these things and that covers what we are saying. Matters that are constantly under question, should be dealt with according to God. "Tribute to whom tribute is due" (Romans 13:7). Romans is the great epistle for these matters.

C.H.H. The matter comes into evidence in Matthew 17 when Peter is asked whether the Lord pays the tax?

J.T. Of course, that was the temple tax. It was not an urgent matter, but the Lord says, "But that we may not be an offence to them" (Matthew 17:27). It shows the importance of paying whatever is due, and so having a good conscience as to it.

J.D. "Pay what is Caesar's to Caesar, and what is God's to God" (Mark 12:17). We are obligated to know what the government require in that way.

J.T. It is not there the temple tax but what is Caesar's -- the inscription on the coin. And no doubt too the coin that came out of the fish's mouth had the inscription of Caesar to pay the temple tax. A man may have a hundred dollars -- silver coins -- Caesar's inscription on them -- they are Caesar's, but our bodies are not Caesar's. That makes the difference. Let them have your money! Let them take it, it is their due, no doubt they need it, let them have it, if you can spare it.

R.H. Is the exploiting seen in verse 11 -- the invading of the territory of the enemy, "... the king granted the Jews that were in every city to gather themselves together, and to stand for their life, to destroy, to slay, and to cause to perish, all the power of the people"?

J.T. Yes. It looks as if power is now with Mordecai and Esther. Or it should be Esther and Mordecai, for she is still queen here. The position is

dependent upon her conduct. That is another thing -- we cannot assume that things are fixed in that sense. They depend upon our own conduct and attitude. She is very particular as to that. She falls down before the king and uses similar expressions as before; "And Esther spoke yet again before the king, and fell down at his feet, and besought him with tears to put away the mischief of Haman ... And the king held out the golden sceptre towards Esther". Then in verse 7, "And king Ahasuerus said to queen Esther and to Mordecai the Jew, Behold, I have given Esther the house of Haman". She secured her position by her own attitude. She is making sure her own attitude is right. We cannot sit down and expect things to right themselves. Now is a time of fasting and carrying on matters. Let us not forget that God looks for conduct in us. The principles of the kingdom are to be seen in us. And God gives prosperity to this line of thing.

J.D. "Write ye then for the Jews as seems good to you". That is said to Esther.

J.T. It shows the confidence the king has in her and in Mordecai. She is wise.

Rem. Mordecai has been on high ground from the outset.

J.T. He has. He went back to Rephidim in his mind and Esther comes into that and this chapter is the outcome of it.

C.H.H. Present ministry would strengthen the assembly that she should be trustworthy.

J.T. That is a great matter with God, that God can have anything like that. Philadelphia is just that. "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee out of the hour of trial, which is about to come upon the whole habitable world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. I come quickly: hold fast what thou hast, that no one take thy crown" (Revelation 3:10,11). And then, "Behold, I

make them of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews, and are not, but lie; behold, I will cause that they shall come and shall do homage before thy feet, and shall know that I have loved thee" (verse 9). The feet are brought in there again. That is the position -- the Lord can trust them.

C.H.H. Fully seen in the heavenly city. She has the glory of God.

J.T. Quite so. Our care meetings are to take that on now. Leadership will be found there in this kind of thing, and the brethren are to take it on. So that the foot is ready. God is going to bruise Satan under our feet shortly.

J.D. The conflict goes on with Amalek in the power of the Spirit.

J.T. Just so. We must have our feet ready as well as our hands and our mouths. God uses us in completeness. Where are our feet in the care meetings? Are our feet used in dealing with the enemy? Esther is thoroughly in this; she is a great woman now. And so it goes on, "And the king said to Esther the queen, The Jews have slain and destroyed five hundred men in Shushan the fortress, and the ten sons of Haman; what have they done in the rest of the king's provinces? And what is thy petition? and it shall be granted thee; and what is thy request further? And it shall be done. And Esther said, If it please the king, let it be granted to the Jews that are in Shushan to do to-morrow also according to this day's decree, and let Haman's ten sons be hanged upon the gallows" (Esther 9:12 - 13). Someone may say, You are a bloodthirsty woman, Esther. But she is thoroughly in line with the position. The ten sons are not only killed, but let them be hanged, that is a curse.

J.F. The king only smote thrice and the prophet was wroth.

J.T. You are meaning in 2 Kings 13?

J.F. Yes, the king is given the opportunity to carry forward the judgment but stays his hand -- that is not wisdom.

J.T. He should have smitten five or six times, the prophet says, and that would have been the complete destruction of Syria.

J.G. David killed Goliath completely. He cut off his head.

J.F. What is the difference between slaying and hanging?

J.T. You might say the slaying may be enough. We often hear of the idea of persons being extreme. But we must be extreme -- we have read of the goodness and severity of God. That is the idea here as the king tells her what has been done. "And the king said to Esther the queen, The Jews have slain and destroyed five hundred men in Shushan the fortress, and the ten sons of Haman; what have they done in the rest of the king's provinces?" So she proceeds in line with the occasion in every way -- proceeding in wisdom with the thing, not allowing anything of the devil to remain. Why leave one single work or evidence of the work of the devil? "And Esther said, If it please the king, let it be granted to the Jews that are in Shushan to do to-morrow also according to this day's decree, and let Haman's ten sons be hanged upon the gallows. And the king commanded it so to be done; and the decree was given at Shushan; and they hanged Haman's ten sons. And the Jews that were in Shushan gathered themselves together on the fourteenth day also of the month Adar, and slew three hundred men at Shushan; but they laid not their hand on the prey". It is a question of conduct there. "And the other Jews that were in the king's provinces gathered themselves together, and stood for their life, and had rest from their enemies; and they slew of them that hated them seventy-five thousand (but

they laid not their hand on the prey), on the thirteenth day of the month Adar; and on the fourteenth of the same they rested, and made it a day of feasting and joy. But the Jews that were at Shushan gathered themselves together on the thirteenth day thereof, and on the fourteenth thereof; and on the fifteenth of the same they rested, and made it a day of feasting and joy. Therefore the Jews of the villages that dwell in the country towns make the fourteenth of the month Adar a day of joy and feasting, and a good day, and on which they send portions one to another". Well, now, it seems to me that Esther is maintaining her ground through right conduct. And so the idea of greed here is not seen. "They laid not their hand the prey". That is, the Jewish natural propensity is denied. I think the lesson is to go the whole way in what is right. Go all the way whatever the suffering or the extremes, if it is a right thing to do, do it.

Ques. Do we become trustworthy in that way?

J.T. It is a great thing to know that the Lord has confidence in you in what you are doing.

Rem. In dealing with matters we sometimes do not go the whole way because of sentimentality coming in.

J.T. It is said, There is no need to be so extreme. But this matter of going the whole way with what is right is urgent. We have already seen how Saul failed to destroy in not going the whole way against them.

L.E.S. When the seven sons of Saul who were hanged were buried, then God was propitious to the land (2 Samuel 21:14).

J.T. That brings up the whole question before us. David was very dilatory in dealing with the matter. He was quite content with allowing the sons of Saul to hang there from the beginning of the harvest until the water poured on them out of the heavens. And here again a woman is mentioned. Then David sends and has them buried. That is, burying is the thought.

Deuteronomy requires that a person should not be left overnight. Burying is the thought. David sent and had them buried. He came to it in time. But he was very tardy. Then God was propitious to the land. But David kept God waiting. We should not do that. Go the whole way! Go the whole way in the smallest thing.

A.P. The way the non-combatant corps is being formed shows that the authorities have become favourable. The proving of a clear conscience before the authorities makes for the recognition of it.

J.T. Quite so. There is no doubt that the law of Great Britain is much more favourable to conscience than it was at first.

C.B. Would the hanging of the ten sons of Haman indicate a special answer in the saints to the royal edict of the king regarding Haman?

J.T. Yes, quite so. The ten sons of Haman have been slain, is that satisfactory to you? It is not satisfactory to Esther, she is going beyond that. So that the point is, Are we ready to go the whole way in exploiting the advantage that God has given us? Because every trace of Haman must be destroyed.

G.A. "But they laid not their hand on the prey". That is where Saul failed.

J.T. They showed that they were not on that line. The prey was not for them, showing this conflict was not for personal advantage but for spiritual.

Rem. That is where Achan failed, too.

J.T. He coveted the gold and raiment.

J.F. We might fail in going before the authorities if we are concerned about the monetary side of things.

J.T. That is very clear. Our young men may have to fell trees and the like. Some have to do worse things. They come into suffering. God says it is to their advantage. Well, you say, They do not get any salary. That is nothing in comparison with the

moral side. Let us make clear that we are not concerned about the prey, but the moral issue, like Haman's ten sons.

C.H.H. It proves that the second is established with these persons in a moral way, in that the Jews do not take the prey.

J.T. They are concerned with what is seemly. So is Esther and Mordecai, too.

J.D. Regarding the wholesale slaughter in Shushan and in the Provinces. There is a point I would like to draw attention to. "And in the twelfth month, that is, the month Adar, on the thirteenth day thereof, when the king's commandment and his decree drew near to be put in execution, in the day that the enemies of the Jews hoped to have power over them". Is there the Amalekite feature going through and the idea is to stress that the Amalekite is to be destroyed?

J.T. It is the undoing of the works of the devil. We are to undo them. You always find in the works of the Lord down here that everything was done completely. If there was a malignant member it was entirely made well. If persons were possessed of demons, the demons were entirely cast out. Persons that had relief were clothed and in their right minds. That is real Christianity implying a complete reversal of what has been before.

L.E.S. I was wondering if there is any connection here in the third month to the incoming of divine power at Pentecost. What is the spiritual import of the third month, the month Sivan?

J.T. The ninth chapter enlarges also on the feast in the month Adar. This feast does not seem to have anything to do with the service of God. God is not mentioned. Still there is something there. It is the outcome of having the devil denied, or robbed. It is the idea of the taking over of Pur or the lot of Haman. That is to say, the idea of the spoiling of

the Egyptians -- the robbing of the world -- the breaking up of the world. As when Israel came out of Egypt they took the silver and gold -- spoiled the Egyptians. That is to say in a spiritual manner we carry over everything, leave nothing of God behind. They took it all with them. Because if you leave it behind they will use whatever is real. If one, a Christian, comes from a human organisation, he should leave nothing of God behind. As far as in your power may lie take all of God with you. Your family and belongings -- make it clear that it belongs to God and take it with you.

C.H.H. What is implied in the scripture, "Make to yourselves friends with the mammon of unrighteousness that when it fails ye may be received into the eternal tabernacles" (Luke 16:9)?

J.T. Well, quite so. Use what you have got in view of the future. I think that the gold, silver and clothing that the Israelites secured from the Egyptians would come into use in God's tabernacle.

J.F. What have you to say about the special days made in Shushan and in the villages in the way of joy and feasting?

J.T. Well, the capital represents the administrative position and the Jews held their feast there. God is going to bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The power of Satan is destroyed in Shushan -- the very centre of the empire. There was complete victory for the Jews. And that is what Esther has in mind -- the completing of the matter, going the whole way in what is right.

J.D. In Numbers 31 when the children of Israel are avenging themselves on the Midianites. "And Eleazar the priest said to the men of war that had gone to the battle, This is the statute of the law which Jehovah hath commanded Moses". That is every exercise is gone over in the light of the Lordship of Christ. Then it goes on, "Only the gold, and the

silver, the copper, the iron, the tin, and the lead, everything that passeth through the fire, ye shall make it go through the fire and it shall be clean".

J.T. Well, that is just an amplification of what has already been remarked as to the spoiling of the Egyptians. It is a question of what is of God. God set up man at the beginning in certain things before the flood, and after the flood God took up a people out of the world in Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. He does not intend to leave the world with anything morally belonging to Him. They did not like to retain God in their knowledge and God is not leaving anything that belongs to Him in that condition of things. So when a Christian leaves the world he saves up everything that God can use. The world rejects God and God says, You are not having any of My things there. Ultimately the world is left a mere shell when the church is taken away, nothing left and the man of sin allowed full scope. Western Europe is going to be ultimately destroyed -- the Romish Empire -- nothing to be left at all. Whatever there will be will be in the East. When the church goes everything will be lost. So now if a Christian leaves a human organisation he brings everything with him.

J.D. The final stage of conflict is in the East.

W.M. Babylon has become the hold of every unclean thing.

D.R. Western Europe's civilisation then is to perish.

J.T. Yes, and all its outgoings. What advantages from God it has had and did not use them! Making use of the Bible and of many other things that God has allowed them to have. But when the time comes God will take everything out of it. The West has everything now -- Christianity. Since the Spirit of God came down the West has had everything. But it is going to end. The West has been built by Christianity, but God is not leaving it there always.

He has possessions in it now. But when the assembly is taken away, the Spirit of God leaves nothing but a shell to be burnt up.

J.D. "Behold then the goodness and severity of God: upon them who have fallen, severity; upon thee goodness of God, if thou shalt abide in goodness, since otherwise thou also wilt be cut away" (Romans 11:22).

J.T. Just so. That is where the point comes up.

P.B. Is there any relation between the overcoming to the ten sons and the stone cut out without hands?

J.T. Well, Esther and Mordecai could hardly be said to be that. It is the idea of God's judgment going the full length here. It is remarkable how thoroughly the thing is done in these two chapters, how Esther is leading; the woman has prominence in regard to Haman and his sons.

C.H.H. Good triumphing over evil -- do you take that influence to refer to the Eastern influence?

J.T. The book of Revelation is in mind for our instruction now. The West is at its best today. For nearly two thousand years it has had the presence of the Spirit.

P.B. Will there remain no remnant of the Western world?

J.T. Of course the millennium comes in immediately. The Jews come up quickly. There will be nations but they are born again of God.

L.E.S. It makes way for Isaiah 61:3 "... to appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, that beauty should be given unto them instead of ashes, the oil of joy instead of mourning, the garment of praise instead of the spirit of heaviness: that they might be called terebinths of righteousness, the planting of Jehovah, that he may be glorified".

J.T. If we only had more knowledge of the prophets we could see how everything is taken up and

dealt with. The book of Revelation shows how things are finally taken up. The time it covers is very short -- three and a half years. Things are done very quickly. It is sub-divided into days and weeks to show how thoroughly things are taken up.

L.E.S. Unless the days were shortened the very elect would not be saved.

J.T. God wants us to get into the knowledge of what is coming in, we are on the fringe of it.

J.D. Do you see today things working up to an end especially with the British Isles on the side of the East?

J.T. I think so. The Empire will probably work out -- Britain, France and America take part in it. That is still the West and the beast will have domination of the West -- the beast and the false prophet. That is this very country and the British Isles will be in that. See how fickle the rulers are; as Ahasuerus in this book of Esther. It is a solemn consideration when you think of what is going to happen to this country, when the Holy Spirit is taken away and the Church is taken away. There is just a shell left -- the man of sin comes up and God is holding everything for vengeance.

J.D. The armies of God will centre around Palestine.

J.T. Quite. Things will happen quickly then. "And Mordecai wrote these things, and sent letters to all the Jews near and far that were in all the provinces of king Ahasuerus, to establish this among them, that they should keep the fourteenth day of the month Adar, and the fifteenth day of the same, yearly, as the days on which the Jews rested from their enemies, and the month that was turned to them from sorrow to joy, and from mourning into a good day; that they should make them days of feasting and joy, and of sending portions one to another, and gifts to the poor. And the Jews undertook to do as

they had begun, and as Mordecai had written to them. For Haman the son of Hammedatha the Agagite, the oppressor of all the Jews, had devised against the Jews to destroy them, and had cast Pur, that is, the lot, to consume them and to destroy them; and when Esther came before the king, he commanded by letters that his wicked device, which he had devised against the Jews, should return upon his own head; and they hanged him and his sons on the gallows. Therefore they called these days Purim after the name of Pur. Therefore, according to all the words of this letter, and for what they had seen concerning this matter and what had happened to them, the Jews ordained and took upon them, and upon their seed, and upon all such as joined themselves to them, so that it should not fail, that they would observe these two days according to their writing and according to their fixed time, every year; and that these days should be remembered and observed throughout every generation, in every family, every province, and every city, and that these days of Purim should not fail from among the Jews, nor the memorial of them cease from among their seed. And queen Esther the daughter of Abihail, and Mordecai the Jew, wrote with all authority to confirm this second letter of Purim. And he sent letters to all the Jews, to the hundred and twenty-seven provinces of the kingdom of Ahasuerus, words of peace and truth, to confirm these days of Purim in their fixed times, according as Mordecai the Jew and queen Esther had enjoined them, and as they had decreed for themselves and for their seed, as to the matters of the fastings and their cry. And the decree of Esther confirmed these matters of Purim; and it was written in the book". That is the last we hear of Esther. All is full authority and went down as written in the book. If we go back to the beginning in Exodus 17 we find the book and things written in

the book. It is remarkable that this is the last we hear of Esther. She is seen as queen confirming these matters of Purim which are written in the book. That is to bring in all the people of all generations into this great exercise. And then the next chapter shows Mordecai's place and Esther is not mentioned. "And king Ahasuerus laid a tribute upon the land and the isles of the sea. And all the acts of his power and of his might, and the declaration of the greatness of Mordecai, to which the king advanced him, are they not written in the book of the chronicles of the kings of Media and Persia? For Mordecai the Jew was second to king Ahasuerus, and great among the Jews, and accepted of the multitude of his brethren, seeking the welfare of his people, and speaking peace to all his seed". He is morally fit to rule.

F.R. Would verse 31 show that Mordecai is occupying the position morally that the king occupied officially?

J.T. The male side is clearly established especially in the last chapter. Ahasuerus the king is representing God and Mordecai is Christ, second to Him -- the millennial day.

D.R. "And the Jews undertook to do as they had begun, and as Mordecai had written to them". Mordecai's leadership is not only at the beginning but it goes right through.

J.T. You could say that the real power is in Mordecai. He is the leader in the whole position. It is a great matter, this matter of leading and going through to the climax, in our own times in Christ, God's Christ -- the only One in mind all the time -- whether in us or in others.

J.D. Would the king here typify God, in the acts of his power and might and the declaration of the greatness of Mordecai?

J.T. That is the impression which this chapter leaves. It is a short chapter but gives an impression

of the results of the exercises and of the power that is there.

J.C. Mordecai was accepted by his brethren. Why does it say multitude of his brethren?

J.T. I would say that 'multitude' is the full thought of the Jews. "For Mordecai the Jew was second to king Ahasuerus, and great among the Jews, and accepted of the multitude of his brethren". There is nothing negative there. The whole idea is there.

L.E.S. Would it correspond with 1 Chronicles 29:20? "And David said to all the congregation, Bless now Jehovah your God. And all the congregation blessed Jehovah the God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads, and did homage to Jehovah and the king".

J.T. Well that is how it works out. Any spiritual person reading the book can see that Mordecai has a great place here. It is really God and the Messiah -- the counsels of God. You cannot stop at anything less than that. Mordecai has a great place. "Mordecai the Jew". Still the Jew. God coming to His people. God gives greatness to him. But the greatest is to be the humblest and smallest like Paul. "Seeking the welfare of his people, and speaking peace to all his seed". The word 'seed' is the last word in the book -- a wholly right seed.

A.H. Suggesting those who are to follow.

J.T. Yes. And so the book closes with Ahasuerus prominent in power and excellence and Mordecai as second. The Father and the Son, or Jehovah and the Messiah, "Speaking peace to all his seed". What a word that is during the present suffering, conflict and strife!

GOD WALKING

Genesis 3:8; 2 Samuel 7:6; Hosea 11:1 - 3

J.T. Our subject is God walking, which involves the tabernacle, for the Spirit of God alludes to that in saying, "but I went about in a tent and in a tabernacle;" and then His people walking with Him; and our being taught how to walk as Hosea indicates. The reading is, "And I it was that taught Ephraim to walk". The first passage clearly intimates that God intended, in walking in the garden, to draw man into a walk with Himself. His voice was heard. "And they heard the voice of Jehovah Elohim, walking in the garden in the cool of the day". He intimates He is not putting any burden on them. It is not the heat of the day, but the cool of it; as if in view of the great subject which stretches out throughout Scripture, He would be considerate of us. Jacob says to Esau that the little ones would die if they had to journey a great distance, so that there should be compassionate interest in us as to this matter, and yet it involves the greatest privileges; walking with God. He walked in a tent and in a tabernacle, He said, and it is clear that if we are to have part in this walk, the meetings are to be in mind, and we are not to be in a natural way in our houses when God is operating among His people, walking.

Ques. Would hearing the voice of Jehovah Elohim involve a spiritual alertness?

J.T. That is the suggestion, that it was to be heard, and although they were hidden in their sinfulness, they heard His voice. "And they heard the voice of Jehovah Elohim, walking in the garden in the cool of the day".

Rem. We know today we would not at all hear the voice of the Lord unless there is spiritual alertness with us.

J.T. That raises the whole question as to whether we are in movement with God, or whether we are neglecting or avoiding what involves His way of walking in a tent or in a tabernacle. Absenteeism among the people of God is very damaging. Absenteeism is a word that has become very current: people staying away from their employment; but the employment itself is apt to divert us, because of what it includes; that is, material means, and, therefore, there is absenteeism from the assembly -- the forsaking of the assembling of ourselves together.

Rem. We have later on that Enoch walked with God. I suppose he would set out a feature of what you have in mind.

J.T. That would be it. It is simple. Enoch did not ask God to walk with him; God is already walking.

H.H. That is very good. I was thinking as to what you just said as to Hebrews, and how the whole setting of Hebrews would encourage us not to forsake the assembling of ourselves together. The light is becoming more precious than ever. We are very near the end. The Lord wants us, and we might say, we want Him. I was wondering whether the cool of the day provides an opportunity for reflection on our part, thinking of what is taking place.

J.T. Genesis is a root book. The roots do not always show themselves, but nevertheless they are there, and we get in this word 'cool' a root which would suggest consideration on God's part for us. It looks for consideration on our part for Him, too. Clearly enough, Adam and Eve were not considering for Him, and yet they heard His voice walking.

A.B.P. Would the thought of the voice of Jehovah

walking in the garden suggest the title 'Word of God' as brought in in John's gospel?

J.T. You say it suggests the title 'Word of God'?

A.B.P. I wondered if it would be that kind of thing that in His walk or as He walked rather, there would be the speaking. The walk of the Lord is emphasised in the early part of John, and the title 'Word of God' -- I wondered if there might be a link.

J.T. There is the suggestion, I suppose, in Genesis of the beginning, and the word is an active word, not a static word. It is "in the beginning". "In the beginning was the Word" (John 1:1). Genesis begins, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth". There were operations at the beginning. It is an active idea, and John's gospel undoubtedly suggests the idea of movement because it says, "And, looking at Jesus as he walked" (John 1:36). John the baptist looked at Him. It was in the beginning of things according to John. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God". Then there is the idea of all things receiving being through Him -- His activities. Then the prologue runs down to the end of verse 13, and soon we have the idea of walking, Jesus walking, but clearly in view of redemption, His entering into death. That is, taking up what was essential in the beginning of things. John saw Him and says, "Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world". That was a great matter. Then the next thing is, "Again, on the morrow there stood John and two of his disciples". John stands and sees Jesus walking and others are affected and they follow. They walk, too, but they walk on the principle of following, but clearly it was a question of a way being made in the darkness. John contemplates the darkness remaining, so that it was a question of a way being made.

W.R. Revelation 2:1 says, "To

the angel of the assembly in Ephesus write These things says he that holds the seven stars in his right hand, who walks in the midst of the seven golden lamps". Is that a present movement in respect of the Lord?

J.T. It was a circular movement, I would think. It does not convey the idea of going anywhere. It is in the midst of the seven lamps, but earlier He was entering into death to take away the sin of the world. He was walking in view of that, and then walking as if to establish the idea. In that idea there is the idea of leadership, making way, so that they followed Him, and the Lord inquires why they follow Him, and they call Him "Rabbi", showing how the work is taking form and that teaching was needed. Then they ask where He abode and He says, "Come and see", and they went, and filled out the day with Him. It was a teaching matter in where He abode.

F.N.W. Does the first chapter of John link with the scripture in 2 Samuel? "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us" (verse 14).

J.T. Just so; so that it says, "I went about in a tent and in a tabernacle". The original is put that way in this translation. It would mean, I think, walking continually. It conveys that idea. He went about. Of the Lord Jesus it says, "Who went through all quarters doing good" (Acts 10:38). It was not exactly that in the wilderness; it was going about in a tent and in a tabernacle. It was the principle of walking in that sense, in those circumstances, and the tent and the tabernacle would be of great value, which John would have in mind.