Acts 9:1 - 21

J.T. It is in mind to speak of "the way", an expression which is found several times in the Acts. It is thought to refer now to Paul in chapter 9, but the expression is also used in relation to the assembly at Ephesus and also that at Corinth. The thought of the way requires some consideration on our part so that we may understand it. It is found in Mark 10, but in Acts it has a particular significance, being used in a sense not generally employed or understood in ordinary language amongst men. It is there used as denoting God's ways in Christ or God's way in Christ; His way although the world and out of it. In Paul's whole experience undoubtedly it had a great place, and the idea is seen in what is known as the Appian Way, which records what the Romans had in mind in pursuing their way in the world. In a system like Mohammedanism, or any other religious system such as is recognised in the world the term is not used, as far as one understands, in the sense in which it is used in Christianity, in which sense we shall consider it at this time.

It is thought that it would be suitable to speak of Paul first, who as unconverted, was opposed to the way. Therefore, we have to speak of it negatively in regard to him until he was converted, as recorded in this chapter. The Spirit of God refers to the way on several occasions after Saul was converted, as we see in chapters 18, 19 and 22, so that it has now acquired the significance of which we have just spoken; that is, as denoting a system as in Christianity; a system of doctrine and principles and manners, which should mark us and govern us as distinct from any other system of things in the world. Christianity denotes essential qualities and not

simply confessions, the word itself being derived from the word 'Christian'. In Acts 11 the disciples were first "called Christians". Acts 9 records the conduct of Paul, the persecution which he conducted for a considerable time under the guidance and authority of the Jewish priesthood. As is well known, Christianity has suffered down the ages on the same principle from the accredited religions of the world, especially from those professedly Christian but who are nevertheless apostate.

Ques. Would we gather from Acts 9:2, that "the way" was already a known course of things? It says, "so that if he found any who were of the way, both men and women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem".

J.T. I think that confirms what has been said. The word says, "so that if he found any who were of the way". The article indicates that the term was well understood as denoting the profession of Christianity, as we speak of it now.

Ques. You distinguished just now between Christianity and Christendom. Is it not very necessary for us to appreciate that Christendom has departed from the way?

J.T. Hence the necessity for separation so that as the way comes into our minds and into our phraseology it is quite intelligible. It includes the fellowship of God's Son, the fellowship of His death, the fellowship of the Spirit, and of the saints.

Ques. Does the expression "the way" suggest what is distinctive? I was thinking of the reference in the Acts to the Epicureans, Stoics, the Sadducees and the like? "The way" suggests something very different from all such.

J.T. It does. It is not that we designate ourselves, but as Paul says, "In the way which they call sect, so I serve my fathers' God". It would be so regarded as over against those elements that you mention.

F.B. In Genesis 24 Abraham's servant says, "I being in the way, Jehovah has led me to the house of my master's brethren".

J.T. That corresponds with what we are saying. Then in Acts 18 it is said of Apollos, that he was instructed in the way of God more exactly, by Aquila and Priscilla. That confirms what has been said; it amplifies it and makes it most definite.

J.C.T. They persevered in the teaching and fellowship of the apostles. Is that characteristic of the way?

J.T. That would be the idea. The apostles as a company, as a set of ministers, were twelve. The Lord Jesus unfolded the truth, and instead of saying the teaching of Jesus, or the teaching of Moses, or David; it is the teaching of the apostles. "They persevered in the teaching and fellowship of the apostles, in breaking of bread and prayers", and that, of course, held its ground for a long time. Paul and others came into it, but the primary reference is to the twelve, showing that Christianity is a system, and as we had yesterday it is set forth in persons qualified to join in the service. The Lord Himself inaugurated it and in doing so we are told He appointed twelve. Matthew tells us that, also Mark and Luke, but Mark says, "that they might be with him". He sent them forth to preach, and we are old also that He sent them forth by two and two. Then following on that we have seventy others, showing how the system became extended. The principle of twelve governs the position as setting out the manner, the Lord's way of inaugurating Christianity and establishing it in this world.

R.D. Is what you have in mind referred to in Hebrews as the new and living way?

J.T. We shall have to consider that a little; "the new and living way which he has dedicated for us", alludes more to the order, we might say, of the service

of God. That, of course, enters into the way, but more as dealing with certain features of divine service. The way is dedicated for us through the veil. The Lord has designated it for us in that way. I think it is well to differentiate. In Hebrews 10 the special order, or, as I may say, the ritual of the service of God is in mind, whereas what we are dealing with now includes the preaching, and the unfolding of truth and principles publicly in the world.

J.M. Is that why the way, and those who are of it are exposed to persecution?

J.T. That is what we get here. Whether there was persecution at the beginning we cannot say; it arose very early, but the service was set up and the preaching was inaugurated by Peter, and Acts 2 describes the facts relative to it and how the Lord added to the assembly, the term "assembly" being implied although not actually stated. "The Lord added ... daily those that were to be saved"; so that it is a matter of the public system of salvation which I think is more particularly in mind.

Ques. Is Paul, this great servant, brought into that in a special way, and for a special reason?

J.T. Yes, and that will come in more fully later. We are now dealing with Paul as opposed to the way and as attacking it; understanding what it meant and attacking it. It is not unseemly, I think, that we should take account of him thus because he is our apostle; that is to say, the apostle of the gentiles, he takes account of himself in that way. He says, "For I am the least of the apostles, who am not fit to be called apostle, because I have persecuted the assembly of God", 1 Corinthians 15:9. He disqualifies himself and makes out that he is the least of all on this line, so that he becomes an example to us in service in that sense. He violently attacked the way. He had been doing so for some time, as

it says, "But Saul, still breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, came to the high priest and asked of him letters to Damascus, to the synagogues, so that if he found any who were of the way, both men and women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem". He was an instrument of the devil who is the destroyer, and he does not endeavour to disguise the fact.

Ques. I suppose the attack against the way is kept up continually?

J.T. "Still breathing out" shows that it was an inward thing. The idea of breathing has to be linked with the use of the word in this book. The Holy Spirit coming in to inaugurate this way, to set it up, is viewed as the very breath of God. The very inwards of God are involved, so that we can see how Saul's attitude shows antagonism to God Himself, not only to the saints, but to the whole system of Christianity. It was expressed in those "called Christians". The word so used would not then include unconverted persons. People now refer to Christians meaning that they are not Jews, but the word 'Christian' in Acts 11 denotes a really converted person, a true follower of Christ.

Ques. Is that seen in Stephen?

J.T. In him we come to something that marks an outstanding servant, one who, in a little while, though not an apostle, purchased to himself a good degree and much boldness in faith, and he became most efficient in setting out the whole truth that led up to Christianity. According to the record in Acts 7 he ably set out the whole position from the beginning, from Abraham being called out by the God of glory; it is a wonderful unfolding, made with feeling, leading up to the first martyrdom of Christianity. I am sure you are right in saying that he is marked by all this of which we have been speaking.

Ques. Would those who were in the way be such as were seen walking with God before?

J.T. Well, that is so. You see it in Mark in blind Bartimaeus. It says he "followed him in the way". He was converted, and he recognised the claims of the Lord Jesus. It was a peculiar position, it was near to the crossing of the Jordan as entering Canaan proper. It says he "followed him in the way", not simply that he followed Jesus, but he followed Him in the way. No doubt primarily it would be the ordinary idea of a way, but the significance of it enters into what we have been saying. It was the way of Jesus, all that would mark Him.

A.C.S.P. Does the expression the way, as you have been referring to it, involve a beginning and an end, and would the beginning be in all the things that Jesus began both to do and to teach?

J.T. I would think that was so; a beginning and an end. The word end is not to be overlooked for it says, "Then the end", (1 Corinthians 15:24); that is, the end of all revelation, as it were; God Himself being the end.

P.S.P. Would the way, in the sense you are now speaking of it, be God's great answer to the exercise of the prophet when he said, "I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps" Jeremiah 10:23?

J.T. That is quite apropos to what we are saying. It is not in man, it is in God. The way comes out from God, and, therefore, the Spirit comes in Acts 2 as violent breathing. It says, "And there came suddenly a sound out of heaven as of a violent impetuous blowing, and filled all the house where they were sitting". Christianity thus emanates from God, its power from the very inwards of God, speaking most reverently. In Saul the breathing was on the line of destruction and violent opposition to God.

T.G. Would it be right to say that the Spirit of God is in the way as seen in Abraham's servant in Genesis 24? He says "I being in the way, Jehovah has led me to the house of my master's brethren".

J.T. Just so. "I being in the way, Jehovah has led me", Genesis 24:27. It is a type of the Spirit of God. The servant in Abraham's house is unnamed. It is the Spirit that is in mind, really. It is a remarkable thing that it says "the man was astonished" at Rebecca. Her way was heavenly, I would say, and she is a type of the assembly. What we are speaking of is a question of the assembly.

R.A. It would appear from Acts 9 that though the Lord is on high actually, yet in another sense He is here, for He says to Saul, "Why dost thou persecute me?"

J.T. Exactly. He is here. According to this record it is not simply that the Lord is coming in in the way He comes to us in assembly, as we say, which is by the Spirit no doubt. It was not by the Spirit that He came to Saul, but He was there Himself. It says, "Suddenly there shone round about him a light out of heaven, and falling on the earth he heard a voice saying to him, Saul, Saul, why dost thou persecute me? And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus, whom thou persecutest". The Lord doubtless is active on earth, especially on the first day of the week, but in general that would be impersonation by the Spirit. He would use the Spirit in that sense, but that would not apply here. It is the Lord personally coming out from heaven to Saul. 1 Corinthians 15, verses 5 to 8 say, "He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. Then he appeared to above five hundred brethren at once, of whom the most remain until now, but some also have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James; then to all the apostles; and last of all, as to an abortion, he appeared to me also". So it is a real

appearing, a personal appearing of the Lord to him, hence making grace more evident.

Ques. Does the Lord appearing to Paul show that henceforth the movements on the way are directed from heaven and not from Jerusalem?

J.T. Quite so; from heaven and not from Jerusalem. The Lord Himself came out of heaven, which is another thing. I would say that it was a physical appearing of the Lord Jesus in His own Person, and nothing less than that.

G.H.P. Did Paul have a similar experience as recorded in Acts 23? "But the following night the Lord stood by him, and said, Be of good courage".

J.T. I would say the same thing happened. The Lord personally came to meet him and to speak to him. He made a great point of distinguishing Paul in view of all that He would use him for; the Lord had in mind that he should be thoroughly imbued with the truth.

J.O.S. Is the same thought in Exodus 33 where Moses says to Jehovah, "Make me now to know thy way"?

J.T. I think it is similar. God answered Moses, "My presence shall go with thee", Exodus 33:14. Judaism as a system was not equal to Christianity, an angel being sent before to accompany them; whereas the Holy Spirit Himself is here on earth as sent down by the Lord Jesus personally from heaven. There is no other system or dispensation to be compared with Christianity.

A.W.R. Does the way involve Christ appearing now in glory?

J.T. He is appearing now as in the glory. John says of Him, "We know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him", 1 John 3:2. That will be as He is now in the glory. His body of glory is involved. We could hardly speak of it thus during the forty days after He rose from the dead, while He

was here during that time. It is after He went up into heaven that He is spoken of as having a body of glory; "who shall transform our body of humiliation into conformity to his body of glory", Philippians 3:21. That our bodies should be like His body of glory is a wonderful thought, and is characteristic of Paul's ministry to the Philippians.

C.H. In Mark 10 the expression the way appears in connection with the Lord's going up to Jerusalem, as though this way would take character from His anticipated glory there.

J.T. That is quite in keeping, I think, with what we have been saying, for what glory is involved! Saul had in his mind particularly, to persecute those who were of the way. It means Christianity in its fullest sense; that is, the testimony here of Christianity as in the Person of Christ, as He now is glorified and known by the Spirit here, not physically, or as He came out of heaven to meet Saul and to convert him. We should greatly value such a man as Paul, perhaps of whom there is no like.

Rem. Paul said, "Have I not seen Jesus our Lord?"

J.T. Well, exactly, and he saw Him as He is in the glory.

H.B. You distinguished between the corporeal appearing of the Lord Jesus to Paul, and His coming to us at the Supper. Would you mind saying a little more about that?

J.T. Well, one has often used the word corporeal, saying that the Lord is not with us at the Supper corporeally. The Roman Catholics would say, His real presence is there, and they make great assertions that they have the physical presence of the Lord, which, of course, is derogatory to the Lord. Nevertheless, the real presence is to be known at the Lord's supper, but in a spiritual sense, not a corporeal sense; this has to be distinguished. That is what is

so precious about the Lord's supper. "I am coming to you", the Lord says in John 14:18, and whilst it does not speak of the Supper there, yet it is in keeping with the thought. The Lord would come to us as we are ready. He would not take us by surprise.

G.H.P. Is the Lord's appearing to Saul here, and later when he came into the service, peculiar to him, or is there anything of that nature now?

J.T. I should not think there is. I should not like to assume that a corporeal appearance takes place. It could not be denied, of course, that it is possible, because divine Persons are always free to do what They will. I thought, however, that John's gospel shows that the appearings of the Lord to us in assembly would generally be by the Spirit, the Spirit being used for that purpose, and yet the Spirit and the Lord are to be distinguished. The Spirit is not to be discerned as the Lord personally; the Lord is the Lord, the Spirit is the Spirit. Although Paul says in 2 Corinthians 3:17, "Now the Lord is the Spirit", that is not the Holy Spirit exactly. The Persons of the Deity, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, each have to be recognised severally at all times.

Ques. Why does Saul use the word 'Lord' so early in his experience?

J.T. Well, it might suggest how quickly the work took place. We shall be changed ourselves in the twinkling of an eye, so that there is nothing to wonder at in the rapidity of Saul's conversion and the effect of it. I do not know whether that is in accord with what you have in mind.

Ques. Would, the God of glory appearing to Abraham, as referred to by Stephen, bring him into the way and into the light of glory?

J.T. It is a question of a divine Person, the God of glory, there. Of course, the Father and the Son and the Spirit are not distinguished in the Old

Testament, although the Son is referred to. When God is spoken of, I would say, the Deity is in mind. It would be Jehovah; although when Stephen said "the God of glory" he meant the God that we know.

The idea of appearing is contemplated in the Scriptures from the outset, and we certainly should not be strangers to it, we should know something of it. The Lord had been moving in that way, according to Acts 1:21; Luke says, "all the time in which the Lord Jesus came in and went out among us, beginning from the baptism of John until the day in which he was taken up from us". I suppose that allusion would mean that He was going to carry on in that way spiritually with the assembly.

We should now look at the remaining verses we have read. The Lord said, "Saul, Saul, why dost thou persecute me? And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus, whom thou persecutest. But rise up and enter into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do. But the men who were travelling with him stood speechless, hearing the voice but beholding no one. And Saul rose up from the earth, and his eyes being opened he saw no one. But leading him by the hand they brought him into Damascus. And he was three days without seeing, and neither ate nor drank. And there was a certain disciple in Damascus by name Ananias. And the Lord said to him in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, here am I, Lord. And the Lord said to him. Rise up and go into the street which is called Straight, and seek in the house of Judas one by name Saul, he is of Tarsus: for, behold, he is praying, and has seen in a vision a man by name Ananias coming in and putting his hand on him, so that he should see. And Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard from many concerning this man how much evil he has done to thy saints at Jerusalem; and here he has authority from

the chief priests to bind all who call upon thy name. And the Lord said to him, Go, for this man is an elect vessel to me, to bear my name before both nations and kings and the sons of Israel: for I will shew to him how much he must suffer for my name".

These facts are mentioned, I believe, to show how much care was expended on Saul so that he should be qualified for the great work in mind, that he should be thoroughly qualified, especially to suffer. It shows how much the idea of the way enters into his life. What he was opposing, he now espouses. He is on the way. The Lord was on the way, but the apostle now espouses the idea and it characterises him throughout. He says later, "in the way which they call sect, so I serve my fathers' God". It seems to me that this should come before us now, so that we should understand what Christianity means in the man who was specially intended to represent it; that is Paul.

J.C.T. Is the idea of authority linked up with the way? The chapter begins with the disciples of the Lord, then there is the recognition of the Lord by those in the city and then Saul comes under it himself.

J.T. That is a good point. The Lord said to him, "Go into the city", as much as to say, I have my people there. He had already said, "Why dost thou persecute me?" and that Me included Ananias and others of the disciples; so that the Lord, in taking up this great vessel, is stressing the idea of the assembly, which is His body. That thought runs into the Lord's supper, "we, being many, are one loaf, one body", 1 Corinthians 10:17. The Lord said, "Go into the city". Saul might think that the Lord knew all about him and that was so, but the Lord wanted Saul to know that He had others in the city. An important feature of the dispensation is

that the Lord has others to associate with Him in the great operational matters He has in mind. Paul had to learn that and that he was to assist the Lord. In fact you almost wonder at the terms he uses denoting the Lord's own experiences.

Ques. Does the mention of the title 'Lord' about 13 times in the chapter suggest on the one hand that if we are to be found following in the way we must be subject to Jesus as Lord, and then on the other hand that the power of the Lord is on behalf of those following in the way?

J.T. I think that is clear. How the Lord took up Ananias is to be noted. "And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, here am I, Lord". The Lord is so far honoured in the conversation with Ananias, but we have to admit that we are often like Ananias. He says to the Lord, "I have heard from many concerning this man how much evil he has done to thy saints at Jerusalem; and here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call upon thy name. And the Lord said to him. Go, for this man is an elect vessel to me, to bear my name before both nations and kings and the sons of Israel: for I will shew to him how much he must suffer for my name". That is something to take account of. Do we question what the Lord says? Do we question what He does? Unless the Lord himself intervenes and insists on having His way how much damage may be done! I think it is a voice to us. In the case of Peter at Jerusalem, when he came out of prison they did not open the door to him immediately; it is evident that they were not ready. We do not travel with the Lord as fast as He does; there is a need of quickness, of doing things immediately. There should be no waiting; if the thing is clear, do it. There is so much that intervenes to

hinder what is of God in the operations He is carrying on, and were it not for His own special intervention how much havoc would be wrought; so it is here that the Lord intervenes and has His way. It says, after the Lord speaks to Ananias, "Ananias went and entered into the house; and laying his hands upon him he said, Saul, brother, the Lord has sent me, Jesus that appeared to thee in the way in which thou earnest, that thou mightest see, and be filled with the Holy Spirit. And straightway there fell from his eyes as it were scales, and he saw, and rising up was baptised; and having received food, got strength". We see how the Lord, if He is forced to it, will insist on having His way, and that means positive blessing; in this case, the positive blessing of the greatest servant. The Lord put Ananias right, and I believe it is characteristic of the way that difficulties, which seem hard to overcome, will be settled, if the Lord has His way.

J.C.T. Was this feature seen practically with Paul? It says, "And straightway in the synagogues he preached Jesus that he is the Son of God".

J.T. The thing should be done at once if it is to be done. With regard to creation we can understand how much would be done quickly, and what a wonderful product we have. So in the moral system, as the work of the Lord has to be done, it should be done quickly.

C.H. It would appear that Ananias got the gain of the Lord's adjustment, for he himself said to Saul, as recorded in Acts 22, "And now why lingerest thou? Arise and get baptised, and have thy sins washed away, calling on his name". He would help Saul on this line.

J.T. It shows how Ananias got help. What he says to Saul shows that this matter of washing is another thing that enters into the way.

J.M. Ananias was characterised by the grace which was operating. He speaks to Saul of the Lord "that appeared to thee in the way in which thou earnest". That way was not the Christian way.

J.T. So that Ananias, no doubt, is typical of subjection. We should all be glad to be like him, because he immediately did what the Lord told him to do. It was very necessary, because the Lord had already made an allusion to Saul regarding him. The city was where Ananias was, and if Saul went into the city he would be attended to.

J.H. You spoke of the importance of hearkening to the Lord's voice as to what we should do. Is it in the ministry we hear that voice and might we hold back and not answer to it?

J.T. There is much to be said about that, especially for those who minister, as to getting the right word. The Lord says, "Whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak", Mark 13:11. There is more than that in our own case now; we need to wait on the Lord for a word and be sure that we get it; and we should be ready to change if something happens which would indicate that another word is needed. There is much to be said about levitical service at the present time.

J.W. Does Mary the mother of our Lord excel in this matter of readiness? She says, when a very important communication is made to her, "Behold the bondmaid of the Lord; be it to me according to thy word".

J.T. Very beautiful. It shows what a woman she was, and how perfectly she exemplified Gabriel's remarks as to her.

THE WAY (2)

Acts 19:1 - 20

J.T. There are certain further features which occur in Acts 9 which should be noted as they also enter into the idea of the way and the bearing of it on those who serve. So we have these attempts on Paul's life in the paragraph beginning with verse 22, the saints coming in to help him. It says "the Jews consulted together to kill him. But their plot became known to Saul. And they watched also the gates both day and night, that they might kill him; but the disciples took him by night and let him down through the wall, lowering him in a basket". On his arrival at Jerusalem, we learn that the brethren were in doubt as to him. It says "all were afraid of him, not believing that he was a disciple". Then we have Barnabas introducing him to the apostles, as if to remind us that leading men among the brethren are to be known; younger men are to make their acquaintance. We learn elsewhere that Paul went to Jerusalem specially to see Peter and spent fifteen days with him. Then another attempt to kill Paul occurred and "the brethren knowing it, brought him down to Caesarea and sent him away to Tarsus". In these occurrences the Lord is showing what He can be to those who serve Him, even in regard to their bodily condition and the danger of possible damage through satanic attacks. Then we are told, "The assemblies then throughout the whole of Judaea and Galilee and Samaria had peace, being edified and walking in the fear of the Lord, and were increased through the comfort of the Holy Spirit".

It is to be noted here in Acts 9:31, that we have a definite section reached. Paul is secured personally by the Lord and taken care of by these brethren, and the Holy Spirit comes in in the way

of comfort. We are also reminded here of the metropolitan feature of the testimony at the beginning, how the assembly was regarded from that point of view. This section would seem to end it, although there is some doubt as to the plural word "assemblies" here. The definite change which affected the assembly as set up locally is seen in Acts 14, when Paul and Barnabas definitely chose elders in each assembly. The idea of local assemblies, beginning with Antioch (Acts 13), was definitely recognised in chapter 14, and the means of their support through eldership. This is the first reference we have to eldership in the assembly and it would be a part of the way. In Acts 9 there seems to be a doubt about the use of the plural word "assemblies", so it is important to bear in mind that the Lord still maintained in Jerusalem something in the sense of control, which ultimately would be replaced by eldership in each local gathering.

A.H. Is the assembly to be guarded against this feature of metropolitanism?

J.T. The Lord was still recognising Jerusalem, but the probable use of the plural word "assemblies" may signify that the local idea was coming to light. Chapter 14, however, is definite; "having chosen them elders in each assembly, having prayed with fastings, they committed them to the Lord, on whom they had believed". Then Paul and Barnabas moved on as if the work were finished.

M.A.W. Has eldership in mind the preserving of things in an assembly way?

J.T. I think so; the local assembly character, rather than the unifying of assemblies, which the apostle speaks of to the Corinthians in saying "thus I ordain in all the assemblies". At the beginning of the revival in which we now have part, the gatherings were large, and were not at all limited in size,

but in recent times the Lord has raised with us the question of the size of gatherings. It has become clear that the matter was of Him and it has proved profitable that there should be limitations as to size. In the gospels it is said that the Lord divided those whom He would feed into fifties and hundreds, but fifty would apparently be the lower limit and would be the most profitable number for the exercise of assembly service God-ward. I think brethren have proved this, and it is to be hoped that it will continue. Years ago in this city there were only two or three gatherings, and in fact at the beginning there was only one, and it was large, and this was the case generally throughout large cities, but it has been found that limitations in the size of gatherings has proved helpful.

Ques. Do you think it wise to adhere to that even at special meetings when there is a large influx of visitors?

J.T. If it be a question of assembly service I should say, By all means. The gatherings should be kept small, as near as possible to what the Lord indicates, that is fifties; so that one was added here during this week-end because of the influx of brethren from different parts. In America the same thing is done and has proved to be profitable, for large meetings in these special times become unwieldy. Years ago at large meetings we used to have two or more cups, and more than one loaf, but the Lord has helped us as to the order which should govern assembly service, involving the size of meetings. I mention all this because of the reference we have made to the use of the plural word in Acts 9:31: "The assemblies then throughout the whole of Judaea and Galilee and Samaria had peace, being edified and walking in the fear of the Lord, and were increased through the comfort of the Holy Spirit".

F.I. In what way would you say is assembly service increased by meetings of smaller size?

J.T. Well, take the prayer meeting here tonight; we shall have companies in the different rooms, but if we were all together in one room we would not have nearly so many prayers in the space of an hour or so. So too, in all services God-ward on the first day of the week, the increase is very great in what is for God.

F.I. The increase therefore is because a much larger number take part.

J.T. Yes, particularly in relation to the service of God, but a meeting for the ministry of truth like the one we are now engaged in may be any size.

C.H. How does all this bear on the subject of the way? Is it in view of the continuation of the testimony of the assembly in it?

J.T. What has been said is to indicate the link with the way. Acts 19 is selected now, because of its allusion to the way. The word appears in verse 9. "And entering into the synagogue, he spoke boldly during three months, reasoning and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God. But when some were hardened and disbelieved, speaking evil of the way before the multitude, he left them and separated the disciples, reasoning daily in the school of Tyrannus". The idea is also in chapter 18, and other chapters, but chapter 19 is particularly instructive in regard to the way, because evil was spoken against it. The chapter records the full thought of Paul's ministry and his way of carrying on, the wisdom that marked him, as we shall see. But first, it is to be noted, that the heavenly side of the truth is particularly in mind in this section; it is the Ephesian section, that which rises to the full height of God's thoughts. "God ... has raised us up together, and has made us sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ

Jesus", Ephesians 2:6. That is a matter of great importance in the way, for it involves God's preparation for our heavenly place. That will be our ultimate position in eternity, of course, but God is preparing us for it now, and it enters into the way things are done.

In verse 1 we read, "And it came to pass, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul, having passed through the upper districts, came to Ephesus"; that is an allusion to servants serving in certain sections under the Lord, Apollos being a sort of free servant, not specially linked up with Paul, such as Timotheus, Titus and several others were. What is said as to the labours of Apollos brings out the independent action of the Spirit in the service. He was a man brought in at a particular time, who served on the lower line; the Corinthian line, which is to be looked at later. It is a line which has to be attended to, but Paul is serving on the higher line, the upper line; as it says, "having passed through the upper districts, came to Ephesus". So that what we have to say at this time will deal with the heavenly side of the truth, and the ministry that bears on that.

G.H.P. How is Paul's entry into the synagogue, as referred to in verse 8, to be understood? What is the force of it and has it any application to us?

J.T. It would be in accordance with the way beginning with the first chapter; indeed we might refer back to the end of Luke as regards the ascension. Luke reports the ascension in his gospel, and he also records it in this book, but in the end of Luke, as pointed out already, the ascension seemed to have taken place the first day that the Lord rose, as if the Lord would hasten it on account of the great matter before Him; the evangelical feature, and the gathering feature of the dispensation. So Luke 24:50 - 53 says, "He led them out as far as Bethany, and having lifted up his hands, he blessed

them. And it came to pass as he was blessing them, he was separated from them and was carried up into heaven. And they, having done him homage, returned to Jerusalem with great joy, and were continually in the temple praising and blessing God". That seems to be an example for them in later years. The temple was recognised in the beginning, as it says in Acts 2:46; "and every day, being constantly in the temple with one accord, and breaking bread in the house, they received their food with gladness and simplicity of heart, praising God, and having favour with all the people". God, in mercy, I would say, and in patience toward Israel, continued to have His apostles and others serve in the temple with a view to securing a remnant. It would be a matter of sovereign mercy, the Lord securing a remnant, and so it is said of the Lord that He "added to the assembly daily those that were to be saved"; meaning the remnant of Israel. (See footnote in the Darby Translation). Paul constantly alludes to them, and that the gospel was for the salvation of the Jews, and I believe that is what is meant here. "And entering into the synagogue, he spoke boldly during three months, reasoning and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God". But then the time had come to discontinue this practice, as we see also at Corinth. Here it says, "But when some were hardened and disbelieved, speaking evil of the way before the multitude, he left them and separated the disciples, reasoning daily in the school of Tyrannus". We should notice the word daily, it occurs in the second chapter, too.

Rem. He teaches two years in the school of Tyrannus, but he only stays three months in the synagogue.

J.T. Well, that would be a matter of apostolic or levitical wisdom in these matters, the way things

are done. The Lord helps the levites in what is done so that they act wisely. I should think the school of Tyrannus was an advantageous position. We can see what great work was done there.

A.M. The separation of the disciples here looked like a break-up. I wondered if there was anything like this in the present movement of the testimony; for instance in the stand that Mr. Darby had to take against those who opposed the truth.

J.T. It was a principle belonging to the way, and is so still. Paul speaks in 2 Timothy 2:18, 19 of certain "men who as to the truth have gone astray, saying that the resurrection has taken place already; and overthrow the faith of some. Yet the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, The Lord knows those that are his; and, Let every one who names the name of the Lord withdraw from iniquity". He speaks of withdrawal, and that is what the apostle did in Ephesus. It was not a break-up, and we have had what looked like that during the last one hundred and fifty years or so. We had what might be called a very great break-up about 1845, but it proved to be part of the way. Brethren, especially Mr. Darby, withdrew at Plymouth on account of evil there, and then they withdrew at Bethesda in Bristol. Since then we have had other such withdrawals, for the word is, "Let every one who names the name of the Lord withdraw from iniquity".

F.K. Each separation, instead of being a break-up, really strengthened the position.

J.T. Certain had "gone astray, saying that the resurrection has taken place already"; and had overthrown the faith of some. "Yet the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, The Lord knows those that are his; and, Let every one who names the name of the Lord withdraw from iniquity. But in a great house there are not only gold and silver

vessels, but also wooden and earthen; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. If therefore one shall have purified himself from these, in separating himself from them, he shall be a vessel to honour, sanctified, serviceable to the Master, prepared for every good work". And then to complete that point the apostle says, "But youthful lusts flee, and pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace, with those that call upon the Lord out of a pure heart. But foolish and senseless questionings avoid, knowing that they beget contentions. And a bondman of the Lord ought not to contend, but be gentle towards all; apt to teach; forbearing; in meekness setting right those who oppose, if God perhaps may sometime give them repentance to acknowledgment of the truth, and that they may awake up out of the snare of the devil, who are taken by him, for his will". As the separation takes place under these principles, I would say that the position is strengthened.

C.H. Is your thought that a feature of the way is the development of the truth of the assembly and the opposition that arises only leads to an increase on that line?

J.T. That is what we get here. The effect of the separating is clearly indicated. But it is well that we should go back to the beginning of the chapter, to look at the persons whom the apostle encountered. It says, "and finding certain disciples, he said to them, Did ye receive the Holy Spirit when ye had believed?" Now before going to that point we should note the "upper districts". We have already touched on that as alluding to what is heavenly. The work of Apollos would be at Corinth, and on a lower level. Ephesus is on an upper level, alluding to the heavenly side of the truth. In this chapter Apollos is at Corinth and "Paul, having passed through the upper districts, came to Ephesus", and the sequel shows that Ephesus itself alludes to the

heavenly side of the truth, both as to Paul's ministry personally while at Ephesus, as well as the epistle he wrote to the Ephesians. So he says "Did ye receive the Holy Spirit when ye had believed?" This is a matter of great importance as an element in the way; that is, the reception of the Holy Spirit, and whether there are those who have in some sense believed, and yet have not received the Holy Spirit.

H.B. Do I understand that the reception of the Holy Spirit has to do with the heavenly side of the truth?

J.T. Well, not necessarily, because it has to do with Christianity as such in all phases. The Holy Spirit is essential to Christianity, and it is essential to the proper state of the believer under all circumstances. So that it rather comes up as a matter of importance doctrinally. Whether we all have the Holy Spirit is a practical challenge, just as the apostle challenged these brethren who were disciples of John.

C.H. So it is essential in order that we should have an intelligent part in all assembly matters.

J.T. Exactly, and then another thing, the lack of full light as to the Christian doctrine, which corresponds with what is current today among the so called sects, in which there is also much teaching that is not scriptural, and the persons affected are the subjects of the work of God, but they have not received the Spirit, because of the effect of that teaching.

F.I. I would like to know the difference between what is said of Apollos that he was "instructed in the way of the Lord", and then Aquila and Priscilla unfolding to him "the way of God more exactly".

J.T. Apollos comes into chapter 18 which is on the lower line as already remarked. Apollos had part in that lower line in his service, whereas Paul is now on the upper line. The question of the Holy

Spirit raised here involves both lines, Corinth as well as Ephesus, but in Paul's ministry at this particular point he raises this question, and undoubtedly it was in view of the remnant, the Israelitish remnant, that they might be added. And not only so, but that he might have a working set of circumstances in the work he was engaged in, which was part of the way. God has come out to work and He is taking on these people: He is not working by Himself. Divine Persons are not exactly working by Themselves independently; God would link on with His people. As persons are converted, born again and receive the Holy Spirit, God would link them on with what He is doing. I think we see that in John 4, where the Samaritan woman is converted and comes to know the Lord as the Christ; she left her water-pot and went her way to the city, meaning she was herself a vessel, she belonged to the system immediately. I think that is the point in this chapter. He would have every one of us as fully fitted in the power of the Spirit, and Apollos was to be fully fitted.

Jno.G. Is it possible always to distinguish between a believer who has the Spirit and one who has not?

J.T. Well, it is not always simple. Speaking from experience it is certainly difficult. The confusion brought in through unscriptural teaching in the sects renders the position most difficult, and therefore we have to be more careful as to persons who are to be added. "The Lord added to the assembly daily those that were to be saved", these are to be regarded as genuine.

A.C.S.P. Do you think we should be concerned to speak of the gift of the Holy Spirit in the preaching of the gospel?

J.T. I should say so. The word is, "and ye will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit", Acts 2:38.

Some thirty-five years ago we had real conflict about this among the brethren, as to whether the Spirit was an element in the gospel. It certainly is so presented in Scripture.

F.B. Is the reception of the Spirit conditional? I was thinking of the scripture in John 14, "if ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will beg the Father, and he will give you another Comforter, that he may be with you for ever, the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see him nor know him; but ye know him, for he abides with you, and shall be in you".

J.T. And again Peter at the very beginning says, "Repent, and be baptised, each one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ, for remission of sins, and ye will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit". That certainly is an evidence that the gift of the Spirit is part of the public proclamation of the gospel. The Holy Spirit is available to faith.

Ques. What place has baptism in this matter? It says, "they were baptised to the name of the Lord Jesus".

J.T. We are dealing with the way, and the matter of baptism comes into it, as well as the reception of the Spirit. So the apostle here raises this question, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when ye had believed? And they said to him, We did not even hear if the Holy Spirit was come". I would say that these men were careless, because John the baptist himself spoke of the Holy Spirit, and from that time until the very time we are reading of, the Holy Spirit had been announced as a gift from God on the principle of faith. Why did these men not know? Is it not like what we have to do with just now? How ignorant people are of the things they should know!

G.H.P. Would the baptism of John link on with the previous dispensation, and is the point here that

we have to be careful to get the unique and distinctive feature of the present dispensation?

J.T. That is what I thought would come up at this particular reading, because it is concerning Ephesus, the most exalted feature of the truth. In Paul's letter to Ephesus he says, "That we should be to the praise of his glory who have pre-trusted in the Christ; in whom ye also have trusted, having heard the word of the truth, the glad tidings of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, ye have been sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the earnest of our inheritance to the redemption of the acquired possession to the praise of his glory". Paul writes as he does, after having had opportunity in the prison at Rome of looking over the whole range of truth, and I believe it was ordered of God that the prison should fit into the way. We should all learn to be restful in meditating on the truth in view of ministering it and to weigh it all very carefully. This epistle written from Rome had, I believe, all these advantages, and Paul deliberately alludes here to the Holy Spirit, and how the Ephesian saints, as recorded in chapter 19, had received the Spirit after they had believed, not as they believed. It was not an automatic matter on their having believed, but was in the order of one, two, three, so to speak. First believing and then receiving the Spirit.

E.W. Is there a progressive link between the way of the Lord, the way of God unfolded more exactly, and the way of the Spirit here in view of the heavenly side of the truth?

J.T. Well, there is. The Lord is more prominent in chapter 19. God is more prominent in chapter 18. Hence we have the "way of God", but in this chapter it is more the Lord, and I think therefore it is a military chapter; that is to say, the truth is brought out on the principle of conflict, great conflict

as we have had it already, and the chapter unfolds it.

F.B. Would the scripture in Isaiah be in line with your thought -- "And a highway shall be there and a way, and it shall be called, The way of holiness", Isaiah 35:8?

J.T. Quite. And again, in the same book, "... thine ears shall hear a word behind thee, saying, This is the way, walk ye in it". It is as if God would say to people who are going in the other direction, "This is the way", Isaiah 30:21.

E.C.M. Is the Spirit essential to enable us to move intelligently to the heavenly side of the truth?

J.T. Well; and I would bring in such as the men in Acts 20 who accompanied Paul in his labours and travels. Among them was Sopater, son of Pyrrhus a Berean. He would be careful about things, weigh matters over, and consult the Scriptures which for us now would be the Old and New Testaments. These men accompanied Paul, and among them was a Berean. Such would challenge things that might be said and if doubtful questions were raised a Berean would say, Where is the scripture? Paul says in writing to Timothy, "cutting in a straight line the word of truth", 2 Timothy 2:15.

S.G. Would this heavenly aspect of the way correspond with John 14, "I go to prepare you a place; and if I go and shall prepare you a place, I am coming again and shall receive you to myself, that where I am ye also may be. And ye know where I go, and ye know the way"?

J.T. The Lord says in the same chapter, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life".

A.H. Is manhood in view of the ministry? It says the number of the men was twelve.

J.T. Quite so. So Paul asks, "To what then were ye baptised?" This also raises the question whether

household baptism is rightly understood. "And they said, To the baptism of John. And Paul said, John indeed baptised with the baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on him that was coming after him, that is, on Jesus. And when they heard that, they were baptised to the name of the Lord Jesus". Notice "to the name"; not 'in the name', but "to the name" as in Matthew 28:19. Someone might say that ought to finish it, but it does not, for it adds, "And Paul having laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them". That is part of the way, the laying on of hands. We shall have it later, doubtless, in regard to Paul and Barnabas, that the brethren lay their hands on them. But here it is the laying on of hands in view of the coming of the Spirit.

Ques. In Luke 11 the Lord speaks of the Father giving the Holy Spirit to them that ask him. What is the difference between the reception of the Holy Spirit on the ground of asking, and what is suggested here?

J.T. I would say that in that section in Luke prayer is the leading thought. The Lord was praying, we are told, "in a certain place". It came in immediately after the incident of Mary and Martha. Probably the Lord felt the peculiarity of Martha's case, and how pleasing Mary was, and how easily instructed in the truth; she sat at His feet and listened to what He was saying. But the Lord is seen as praying, and the inference is that He was concerned about Martha. If we had only Luke's record we might wonder whether Martha ever came into the truth, but if we consult John we see undoubtedly that she did, but the prayer recorded in Luke probably was the cause. So the disciples see the Lord praying and say, "Lord, teach us to pray" and the Lord immediately says, "When ye pray, say, Father". That is to say, He links them on with

the Father. And the passage runs on quoting the Lord saying, "How much rather shall the Father who is of heaven give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?" The idea of prayer therefore ought to be stressed in dealing with souls who have not received the Spirit. It is a question as to what their relations with God really are.

Ques. In Luke 11 immediately after the reference to the asking for the Holy Spirit we are told that the Lord Jesus was casting out demons, and one is dumb. Would there be in that any indication as to the reason why some are not free to address divine Persons?

J.T. I think that is a feature of Luke, too. You wonder at times at the prayer meeting why people are not praying; you think they are dumb. They need to get the power of speech. Luke does not say that the demon was cast out, but that the Lord was doing it; He was casting out a demon, but the inference was that it was cast out.

E.C.M. It is said of Paul, "Behold, he is praying". Does that indicate conditions suitable for the reception of the Spirit?

J.T. Very good; "Behold, he is praying". It fits in with what we are saying now, and our brother's allusion to the Lord casting out the demon is important as following on what we, have already had as to prayer. "How much rather shall the Father who is of heaven give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?" I was thinking of the apostle's remark in Romans, that the gospel is for the obedience of faith. That is, obedience in persons who had faith. Obedience and faith must go together. In 1 Corinthians 13 it is said that one might have power to remove mountains, but that would not be obedience. There might be faith, but it would not be obedience. Obedience of faith is what is needed.

A.G. In the gospels the narrow way is referred to and it says that it leads to life, and then life would be enjoyed in the Spirit.

J.T. Yes, the fruit of the Spirit.

C.H. Is faith linked with their hearing? It says, "And when they heard that, they were baptised to the name of the Lord Jesus". Did they apprehend by faith that He was the centre of another sphere?

J.T. Yes, John directed people away from himself. It says, John stood. He had been doing things, but he now stands, and that would make way for Christ. It is Christ who now does things.

F.B. Is the recipient of the Holy Spirit always conscious of the reception?

J.T. I would say he is, in principle. It is difficult to see that he would not be in some sense conscious of it when such a great thing is happening in the soul; there must be something in the sense of consciousness.

Ques. Would you please say a little as to what is in mind in connection with the thought of baptism to the name of the Lord Jesus?

J.T. Well, it is just to bring out that the faith system is to the Lord -- to the name. There is also baptism "in the name of the Lord" (Acts 10). That is to bring power into the soul. But "to the name" is making the Lord the object of faith. He is the centre of the system that has been established.

C.H. This seems to connect with Paul laying hands on them. It adds, "And all the men were about twelve". Is that a suggestive number?

J.T. We should not pass that, the number twelve, because Paul is now labouring in the light of divine operations, and Ephesus is especially in mind. The greatest thoughts are now in mind. When we consider the facts that are recorded here, and his epistle to the Ephesians, and what is said as to Ephesus in Revelation, we can see that the greatest facts are

in mind in the Ephesian sphere of operations. The number twelve comes in designedly in view of this, that Paul should have that number to instruct; he needed every one of them. It is a great operational or administrative number, and the laying on of hands means administration. "And when they heard that, they were baptised to the name of the Lord Jesus. And Paul having laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. And all the men were about twelve". It seems as if the stress is laid on the number, because it was in view of administration, and for that the Holy Spirit came upon them.

Jno.M. Are we to regard the laying on of hands as purely apostolic?

J.T. I suppose that is so with Paul, as also with the twelve.

A.H. Would the twelve men provide a concrete expression of the truth of the kingdom of God about which he reasons?

J.T. Just so. They were now constituted an administrative company, and Paul needed all that. I am sure he welcomed these men. How quickly they were brought into the thing! How careless they had been before, in that they had not even heard that the Holy Spirit was come! But when they heard what Paul had to say, they were baptised and were ready for it. There was immediate action.

A.W.R. Is the way perfectly furnished with the grace of the Holy Spirit; the name of the Lord Jesus and the personnel, the number twelve suggesting love's activities?

J.T. I believe love comes into the matter of twelve peculiarly, it really begins objectively.

THE WAY (3)

Acts 18:1 - 28

J.T. It is thought that what is recorded of Apollos will help us with the general bearing of this chapter which is on the lower line as compared with Ephesus which, as we have seen, is on the upper line, and it affords opportunity to speak of "the way of God". The chapter also speaks of "the way of the Lord". The way of the Lord doubtless would lead to the Lord's supper, but the way of God would lead to His service generally. The epistles written in prison by the apostle, that is, Ephesians, Colossians and Philippians, speak of the heavenly side of the truth, but do not deal with the Lord's supper or the service of God in the more public character of it, as the epistles to the Corinthians do. We shall need to come to that side, God willing, in the afternoon, because it belongs to the way, the Lord's supper being attached to the public testimony from the outset. We see this in the end of Acts 2 where the disciples broke bread in the house, showing that it was never connected with the temple, but it is connected with the public character of the service of God. Acts 20 would help us as to this, where it is said that the disciples were assembled, "we being assembled to break bread", implying the public character of the service. Acts 18 is more initial, and refers to the roots of the work of God at Corinth. Apollos is seen in this chapter, and in the next chapter too, where it is said that he was at Corinth. The way of God is linked up with him in chapter 18.

We have much relative to Paul personally in chapter 18, and there is importance in its coming after Paul's visit to Athens; this should be kept in mind as dealing with the public character of the work of God. In what is said at Mars' Hill, Athens,

the creation comes into the way of God. Creation teaches us, as we see in 1 Corinthians 11, where it is said that nature teaches us. Our public or personal appearances, our clothing, our behaviour, all enter into the way of God. Clearly, the way of God is not intended to promote the fashions of this world.

H.B. Why does John's baptism come in here and in the next chapter also?

J.T. It shows how the Spirit of God links on with previous testimonies in the unfolding of the way of God. In the matter of clothing Peter tells us as to what is suitable in women and that necessarily includes the creational facts as to men and women. The man was first formed, an important matter, and although the word man represents both men and women, yet the man is also spoken of in contrast to woman, and he was made first. His ability and his great intelligence are seen in Genesis 2. So that all the previous testimonies are involved in these scriptures and particularly in Acts 17 where we have the record of Paul's discourse at Athens, a city which represented the learning of this world. This chapter following on that, clearly upholds the way of God, and Paul in his discourse at Athens calls attention to the way of God. He said, "For we are also his offspring". Men as such are that and consequently should represent God in their clothing and deportment. Then it is not only the way of God, but Paul also speaks about "my ways". He sent Timotheus to Corinth so that they might learn through him what Paul's ways were in Christ.

J.P. You referred to Apollos as representing an independent action of the Spirit. Would you mind saying a word as to how that stands in relation to Paul?

J.T. He is never seen as a product of Paul's ministry. We shall see in chapter 20 that the products of Paul's ministry accompanied him, but

Apollos is always viewed as by himself. It says that Paul had begged him much to go to Corinth, but his will was not to go. There were apostolic representatives or delegates, but Apollos never was such and therefore he should be taken as representing what is independent; not of course independent of anything that is right. We see how God can take up a man like him from Alexandria, that is, from Africa, an area which is not particularly distinguished in connection with the work of God, but the work of God was there and Apollos represented it, I think.

F.I. He comes in as one who waters what Paul had planted?

J.T. That is what is said, as if Apollos were recognised as a distinguished workman alongside of Paul himself.

F.B. Would you say that Priscilla and Aquila being found at Corinth was connected with the ways of God?

J.T. Yes, the governmental ways of God, because Claudius had ordered all the Jews to leave Rome. They are regarded as Jews evidently so far, but whether they were Christians is not stated. There may have been something there, but they were in Rome and all Jews were commanded to leave Rome, not all Christians, but all Jews. They may have had some light, but it seems clear that they were enlightened through Paul.

G.B. Is there anything today that answers to what you have suggested as to Apollos?

J.T. It is remarkable how certain things have happened since the Reformation; the great work on the Continent both in Germany and Switzerland and in France and extending down to Italy -- a great many were affected, especially in France and Germany. That would not be an independent action, but would be in keeping with the testimony as it came into Europe. The testimony came into Europe

evidently at Philippi, apart from what there may have been at Rome. Paul had a vision, and he saw a man in Macedonia who was saying, "Come over into Macedonia, and help us". Paul was assured that he should go in that direction, which he did. These things that have taken place in Europe are in keeping with that. But in the sovereignty of God Africa also came into blessing. Then in more recent times the work extended to Australia, North and South America, and the West Indies; there may have been a suggestion of all this in the Lord's reference to "The queen of the south". This would point to sovereign action, independent action. The Reformation began in Europe, but the work of God in later years extended through other persons in England. Then America was opened up and Australia has been opened up since, and I would say that that is the kind of thing that we should be ready for; what would seem to be independent action, but capable of being linked up with the work of God as already existing, especially in Great Britain and this country.

C.H. That seems to be an important thing, that whilst there is the independent action of the Spirit, the thought is that it should be linked on with what God is already doing. There would seem to be no result unless this is done.

J.T. Well, that is what I thought exactly. The principle of co-ordination must be with us or else we shall become national. The work of God is one, and the centre of it is in heaven, which the epistle to the Ephesians opens out.

J.M. Have the authorities as ordained of God anything to do with the way of God, as we see in Claudius and Gallio in this chapter?

J.T. Yes, it is stated in Romans 13:1, "the powers that be are ordained of God", and we are to be affected in our consciences regarding them too. We would require, however, to proceed to consider

Priscilla and Aquila, and the facts in relation to them show that servants may go on with their ordinary employment and yet carry on in the work of God. Paul came to them, and because they were of the same trade, abode with them and wrought. So that we see how brethren can carry on the work of God, and yet go on with their business for necessary purposes.

J.C.T. Priscilla and Aquila were moving in relation to their ordinary occupation, but as available in it to God they are able to help Apollos into the way of God. They appear to come into contact with Apollos and later with Paul as moving in their ordinary occupation. Would God help us in this same way, do you think?

J.T. They came in contact with Paul and with Apollos in that setting. Paul was working in the same trade as Aquila and Priscilla, showing that God does not necessarily employ trained men for special purposes in the services, but servants can go on in their business and at the same time be with God in His work. God would be pleased to have them in His employment, and being in their ordinary business helps in a disciplinary way.

Rem. It is rather remarkable that Paul takes up this trade of tent making. He speaks in another place of being brought up at the feet of Gamaliel, which might suggest what we would call a university man.

J.T. He was a highly educated man as we see, but in the government of God he was brought down. At Corinth they said of him that his speech was contemptible. He refers later to the greatness of the revelations given to him, but the Lord causes him to be affected physically by having a thorn for the flesh, and although he besought the Lord that it might depart from him, the Lord indicated that it would have to stay.

Ques. Would the reference to Paul being with Priscilla and Aquila in their home and also in their business suggest that in the ways of God a good deal of our spiritual education in view of the assembly is obtained in those spheres?

J.T. Very good. Paul is the first to bring in household baptism. We are told that Paul and Silas spoke the word of the Lord to the jailor with all that were in his house, and they would greatly enjoy the transfer from the prison to his house. They were immediately brought in there and attended to in all the things they needed, the dressing of their wounds and so forth. Then we are told earlier in that chapter that Lydia had said to Paul, "If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house and abide there". We are told too, that when Paul was let go from the prison, he went to Lydia, showing that the household enters into the service, and the conversations that take place in it enter into the service.

C.H. Does this chapter suggest that the ways of God with us are intended to contribute to our being in the way of God more effectively and more intensively?

J.T. Quite so. It must have been a disadvantage to Aquila and Priscilla being ordered to leave Rome, but they no doubt would be fitted for the great advantages that accrued through coming into contact with Paul at Corinth. They would no doubt accept the discipline and no doubt they grew in the truth on account of it. We can see how, from place to place, they are identified with the testimony, even in the use of the houses they had in the different places. The assembly was apparently in one of them.

C.H. Would the turmoil which arose under Gallio and the taking of Sosthenes and his being beaten

stand over against the comfort there would be in the households at Corinth?

J.T. Paul, having spent at least eighteen months at Corinth, would have become acquainted with household conditions amongst the brethren, and those of us who are moving about amongst brethren, endeavouring to serve, would have impressed upon us the value of household conditions. The jailor, at Philippi would normally be a hard kind of man but how beautiful the way he attended to Paul and Silas and set the table before them. It would look as if he laid the table himself. How beautiful it is that Christianity affects us in that way, in our houses, the household sphere being adorned in the case of the jailor to the extent even of setting the table.

A.H. Would the apostle have that in mind in what he says to the Ephesians that he taught them publicly and in every house?

J.T. Well, that corresponds with what we are saying, and Ephesus corresponded in Paul's service.

A.H. In making the remark I had in mind what was said earlier that at meetings like these we should not simply enjoy the time together and then go away and forget it, but what we enjoy together should have a place in our conversations in our houses.

J.T. Quite so. These occasions of three days and three nights, eating and drinking together, and living together, and conversing together, are blessed of God. They are more frequent in the Dominions than in the home country here, and I believe God would promote them, and the brethren would be thus thrown together. The truth is usually brought to bear on the households so that right conduct should be there.

A.C.S.P. Should it be noted that whilst Priscilla and Aquila moved to Corinth in the government of

God, it was as a result of their contact with Paul that they move on to Ephesus. I wondered if that would suggest that as the testimony has a greater place with us we hold things here more lightly?

J.T. Quite so. It is noticeable that they did move. We should note verses 18 and 19, "And Paul after this tarried there yet a good while, and then took his leave of the brethren, and sailed thence into Syria, and with him Priscilla and Aquila; having shorn his head in Cenchrea; for he had a vow. And he came to Ephesus, and left them there: but he himself entered into the synagogue, and reasoned with the Jews". You can see that Paul was peculiarly linked up with these two, and henceforth we shall sec that these two persons were equally profitable in the service, and wherever they went they were noted as having a house. Each is mentioned first equally often, which is remarkable, as illustrating what these two meant as linked with Paul here. It seems as if he took them with him as far as Ephesus.

J.E. What is in your mind as to Aquila and Priscilla being left at Ephesus?

J.T. Doubtless Paul had them in mind. He came back to Ephesus of course; it says in chapter 19, "And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus ..." It is difficult to say much beyond the facts that are given, but these two persons were distinguished in the service of God, especially in the question of care. We can see how skilfully they dealt with Apollos. It says of him, "He began to speak boldly in the synagogue. And Aquila and Priscilla, having heard him, took him to them and unfolded to him the way of God more exactly". It would look as if they were linked together in the work and were useful persons.

J.E. Would the household serviceability at Corinth have anything to do with this move to Ephesus and help them in relation to it?

J.T. I would think they took Apollos to their house. I would not think they took him aside in the room. They were household people and they had experience in dealing with persons in that way.

J.C.T. Would the way of God be set out in their household?

J.T. I think so. What a great thing it was to have these two persons, and how the way of God in the house would be exemplified by them. Doubtless they would allude also to the time that Paul lodged with them.

S.G. Would Priscilla be an exemplification of the feminine quality as over against the twelve men at Ephesus?

J.T. Quite so, both are needed. You need the masculine and the feminine to bring out household qualities, although Lydia was by herself apparently. We cannot say whether she was a widow or not but she had the house and was a woman of business, a seller of purple. But Priscilla and Aquila represent both ideas, a man and woman in the house, which is the divine thought. The word is, "It is not good that Man should be alone", and that is always true.

E.C.M. Is that how the truth of the assembly is worked out? Both the man and the woman in the household?

J.T. I thought so, and it would fit in with Ephesus, because the truth of the assembly undoubtedly came out there.

H.C.L. Aquila is mentioned first here, would that be in connection with the way of God? In Romans where it is stated that they staked their own neck, Priscilla is mentioned first.

J.T. They both did it. It would appear that they were thoroughly one. It is an example for us,

especially to brothers and sisters who are married, as to what terms we are on with each other. I think Aquila and Priscilla set out the idea for us, and no doubt they were helped by the fact that Paul abode with them and worked with them.

Rem. The work of God moved out from this house as Paul served at Corinth. The work of God extended there, the Lord saying to him that He had much people in that city.

J.T. Paul abiding with them would augment what he was doing. He would find encouragement and strength in what he was doing. In Romans 16 he alludes to Phoebe, a sister who lived at Cenchrea, and notes her characteristics.

E.C.M. Is it a point that, not only is the service of Aquila and Priscilla brought forward, but there is the readiness of Apollos to be adjusted by that service?

J.T. That is what is in mind in this chapter. How these two persons served Apollos and then the place he has, as we see in 1 Corinthians 3 where Paul refers to him. It says in that chapter, "for ye are yet carnal. For whereas there are among you emulation and strife, are ye not carnal, and walk according to man? For when one says, I am of Paul, and another, I of Apollos, are ye not men? Who then is Apollos, and who Paul? Ministering servants, through whom ye have believed, and as the Lord has given to each". These questions raised by Paul by writing to the Corinthians were intended to rebuke partisan feeling, as if the brethren were unduly influenced by certain persons; not Apollos and Paul perhaps, but certain local leaders, for there were local parties at Corinth that influenced the brethren generally. Then he goes on to say, "Ministering servants, through whom ye have believed, and as the Lord has given to each. I have planted; Apollos watered; but God has given the increase".

It is to bring God in. The apostle speaks of these servants just as servants although he goes on to say we are God's fellow-workmen, showing how the servants may be elevated to that position, even persons such as Apollos as well as Paul.

This whole chapter should be in our minds in considering our subject, so we should touch on the vision. Verse 6 touches on what servants have to go through in the ways of God. It says, "But as they opposed and spoke injuriously, he shook his clothes, and said to them, Your blood be upon your own head; I am pure; from henceforth I will go to the nations". I allude to this, because it seems that those who are in service should bear in mind that it is the last moment, and matters are going to turn against men. I speak of judgment, that is what it means when it says, "Your blood be upon your own head". The judgment of God is serious. Then it goes on, "and departing thence he came to the house of a certain man, by name Justus, who worshipped God, whose house adjoined the synagogue". Notice here that this man's house is in view. Then it says, "But Crispus the ruler of the synagogue believed in the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing, believed, and were baptised". That is, the household is seemingly now in evidence; household baptism included.

J.G. Some have difficulty as to household baptism and I wondered if such could see that it enters into the way; it would help them to the acceptance of it.

J.T. Quite so. In Christianity there are the two ordinances, namely baptism and the Lord's supper. Baptism should be in the households of the brethren, but not the Lord's supper, except as a matter of physical convenience in providing a room for the brethren. The Lord's supper stands by itself, it marks us out for the service of God, but baptism

detaches us from the world, and the household is to be included in the whole position, not merely the head of it, but the whole house. Then it goes on to say, "And the Lord said by vision in the night to Paul, Fear not, but speak and be not silent; because I am with thee, and no one shall set upon thee to injure thee; because I have much people in this city". The Lord is now coming down to the actual locality and we have arrived now at what we spoke of yesterday; namely, the idea of elders. We see that local assemblies were set up on their own footing, as it were, and are able to continue. The apostles Paul and Barnabas had chosen them elders in each assembly so that the local assembly idea was set up. So the Lord says here, "Fear not, but speak and be not silent; because I am with thee, and no one shall set upon thee to injure thee; because I have much people in this city". The idea is that they must all be secured and Paul would not be content until he had secured them all.

A.H. What is the bearing of the word of God on the way of God? It is referred to in verse 11.

J.T. "And he remained there a year and six months, teaching among them the word of God". I think we have already alluded to the work at Ephesus and the work at Corinth. The work at Ephesus takes on rather the militant idea, whereas the word of God in itself expresses what His mind is; and so it must work out in the way it governs the assembly; it would be the law of the house, for the word of God must enter into that; it sets out the principles that govern the assembly. Paul remained there teaching the word of God; teaching here is very important, teaching the word of God. John's gospel, as already remarked, is mainly marked by teaching, and in that gospel we see the Lord is first addressed by converts and is called "Teacher" and they desire to be with him, saying, "Where

abidest thou? ... and they abode with him that day". Mary Magdalene likewise recognises that He is her Teacher. Then we have a message sent by Him to the brethren, as if the Lord would take us on and send messages through us as we are taught.

A.H. Would the word in Deuteronomy 33 as to Moses being king in Jeshurun illustrate it? The word is, "Yea, he loveth the peoples, all his saints are in thy hand, and they sit down at thy feet; each receiveth of thy words".

J.T. Very good. What a chapter that is! Yet the twelve tribes refused to go on in the light of purpose. Still the work of God stands and it can be said, "What hath God wrought!"

J.E. You referred to eldership. Would that be seen in the house of Stephanas? The saints were to be subject to such. Were the moral features of eldership seen there?

J.T. Very good. You are alluding to 1 Corinthians 16:15. "But I beseech you, brethren, (ye know the house of Stephanas, that it is the first-fruits of Achaia, and they have devoted themselves to the saints for service), that ye should also be subject to such, and to every one joined in the work and labouring". That shows how households acquire power, moral influence and respect because they have been devoted to service.

Now it goes on to say in Acts 18, "The Jews with one consent rose against Paul and led him to the judgment-seat, saying, This man persuades men to worship God contrary to the law. But as Paul was going to open his mouth, Gallio said to the Jews, if indeed it was some wrong or wicked criminality, O Jews, of reason I should have borne with you; but if it be questions about words, and names, and the law that ye have, see to it yourselves; for I do not intend to be judge of these things. And he drove them from the judgment-seat".

Gallio was used in that way and so the apostle was thus relieved. These things are to be taken into account. It refers to the powers that be what they may do and what they may not do.

J.C.T. As being in the way can we rely upon the operations of God to restrain the powers that be? I was thinking of the word, "He ... reproved kings for their sakes, saying, Touch not mine anointed ones, and do my prophets no harm".

J.T. Quite so. We get that throughout Acts. We shall see it in chapter 19 where the town clerk at Ephesus helped the apostle. The work of God went on and God was watching over everything and overruling.

J.W. Might we be helped in that connection by what we are? The town clerk at Ephesus testified as to Paul and those with him saying, "Ye have brought these men, who are neither temple-plunderers nor speak injuriously of your goddess".

J.T. Quite so. He becomes apologetic for the servants of God. 'They are not temple-plunderers', he says, and yet he says that the goddess fell down from heaven. That was a lie, but we can see how God overrules things. It says that "he who now letteth [or hindereth] will let, until he be taken out of the way", 2 Thessalonians 2:7.

J.W. I thought that as we are faithful, our conduct and conversation should be a help if the authorities have to do with us in any matter.

J.T. Quite so. So that you have to regard the powers that be and be thankful for them. We have had evidence of the truth of what you say for the past number of years, and we have seen that God came in and affected certain men in the right direction. They are not with us, but they moved in the right direction, and everyone who knows the facts knows that God was in it.

J.C.T. God came in for Abraham with Abimelech in Genesis 20. God said to Abimelech in that in, stance, "He is a prophet, and will pray for thee".

J.T. Quite. So that the word is, "Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm".

THE WAY (4)

Acts 20:1 - 12; Acts 2:42 - 47

J.T. The verses in chapter 20 are read to link our subject with Paul's ministry, and it is clear that the Lord's supper is part of "the way". The verses read in chapter 2 may be taken as a primary indication of "the way"; that is, the way things were done. It refers in that section to the Lord's supper twice; "they persevered in the teaching and fellowship of the apostles, in breaking of bread and prayers" (verse 42); and then, "every day, being constantly in the temple with one accord, and breaking bread in the house, they received their food with gladness and simplicity of heart, praising God, and having favour with all the people; and the Lord added to the assembly daily those that were to be saved" (verse 46). These remarks may be rightly linked with the references to the Lord's supper in the gospels, showing that it was an essential part of the divine way of the testimony. It is mentioned by Matthew, as is well known, also by Mark and by Luke, and then Paul in his epistle to the Corinthians mentions it very fully. It may be noted, that there it is a further communication from the Lord, and should be taken as the final word as to the Lord's supper. It eliminates some of the things mentioned in the synoptic gospels and it adds other things. This thought should be particularly under our notice on this occasion, because the Lord has revived the truth as to the Supper, and greatly enlarged on it for the edification of the brethren, and peculiar reference is to be made to the instruction furnished by Paul.

The section in chapter 20 is very formal, we might say, and has some particulars that should be specially noticed, calling attention to the length of Paul's discourse. Evidently his understanding or fight as to the Supper should be known in connection

with the mystery, as if the sections of Europe and Asia under consideration were somewhat defective in the matter of the Lord's supper. Indeed it may be said, that from the very outset of the testimony in this dispensation the Lord's supper has been a matter of controversy, and it is so yet. In hardly anything is the human will more in activity than in the matter of the Lord's supper. Whether it be in the mind of the Roman Catholic Church, the Church of England, Presbyterian or Nonconformist bodies, or the many independent bodies, there is much misunderstanding and error connected with this truth. So it is of the very first importance that the brethren should be clear as to what Paul says -- what he says which is also in the Gospels, and what he adds to what is said in the Gospels. It is of all importance that we should be intelligent as to the Lord's supper, because it bears on the service of God.

E.C.M. In what way does Paul's discourse link up with the mystery?

J.T. Well, in using the word 'mystery', I mean the assembly of course. It is clear that the celebration of the Supper was to be in the assembly and not in any independent setting. The assembly is assumed to be there. So in the letter to Corinth the apostle makes some severe remarks as to what was being done there. He says in verse 17 of chapter 11, "But in prescribing to you on this which I now enter on, I do not praise, namely, that ye come together, not for the better, but for the worse. For first, when ye come together in assembly ..." We should notice that it is "in assembly"; that is the reason why it has been linked up with the mystery, because the assembly is contemplated in the coming together. He goes on to say, "When ye come together in assembly, I hear there exist divisions among you, and I partly give credit to it. For there

must also be sects among you, that the approved may become manifest among you. When ye come the together into one place, it is not to eat the Lord's supper" [meaning that it should be, but it was not in practice]. "For each one in eating takes his own supper before others, and one is hungry and another drinks to excess. Have ye not then houses for eating and drinking? or do ye despise the assembly of God, and put to shame them who have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you? In this point I do not praise. For I received from the Lord, that which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus, in the night in which he was delivered up, took bread, and having given thanks broke it, and said, This is my body, which is for you: this do in remembrance of me. In like manner also the cup, after having supped, saying, This cup is the new covenant in my blood: this do, as often as ye shall drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye shall eat this bread, and drink the cup, ye announce the death of the Lord, until he come. So that whosoever shall eat the bread, or drink the cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty in respect of the body and of the blood of the Lord. But let a man prove himself, and thus eat of the bread, and drink of the cup. For the eater and drinker eats and drinks judgment to himself, not distinguishing the body". It would be hard to point out anything that is so divinely instructive as that scripture, and it is very important that it should be understood. There has been a great deal of misunderstanding as to the Lord's supper; that has been the case from the beginning and is still so.

Ques. What is suggested by the term "in assembly"?

J.T. That the brethren are so gathered; they are not simply together as so many persons, but "in assembly", meaning that the idea of the assembly

enters into our being together. We are all governed by the truth of it, and so it says, "We, being many, are one loaf, one body". The assembly is assumed in the celebration of the Supper.

Ques. Is it the thought of Christ's assembly or the assembly of God referred to further down in Acts 20?

J.T. I would say Christ's assembly, "my assembly" as He calls it, as if He regarded it as a special matter with Himself, and with us too. He says in Matthew 16, "On this rock I will build my assembly". The Supper is said to be the Lord's supper, not God's supper, nor the Father's supper, nor the Spirit's supper, but the Lord's supper. I believe it is to this end that we have the statement as to the saints being viewed as priests of the Christ, as it is said in Revelation 20, "Blessed and holy he who has part in the first resurrection: over these the second death has no power; but they shall be priests of God and of the Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years". So that we can serve with Him, and He with us, as it were, on His own account. This is confirmed by the fact that it is called the "Lord's supper".

F.I. As to coming together "in assembly", is it that we are set together in the light of the assembly in an abstract way, or is there to be what is concrete?

J.T. Well, it is concrete, I would say; that is so as the brethren are there, or there could not be the Lord's supper.

F.I. It is not quite the same thought as in 1 Corinthians 14 where the whole assembly is said to come together in one place.

J.T. No. The Lord's supper can be celebrated in sub-divisions of the assembly, but each subdivision in principle is the assembly; it is only a matter of convenience to sub-divide. We do not need to

sub-divide for a meeting like this, or an address, or other meetings but for the Lord's supper.

S.B. Does the latter clause of 1 Corinthians 11:34, show the importance of the truth of the assembly and of the Supper, and also the urgency of the matter? The word is, "But the other things, whenever I come, I will set in order". There were other things evidently to be put right but as to the Supper they were to be adjusted at once.

J.T. That is to say, he eliminates other things which would be attended to in due course, but the matter of the Lord's supper was urgent.

Ques. Would you say what you understand by our being "priests ... of the Christ"?

J.T. It is so stated in Revelation 20. Certain ones are said to be blessed, and they are priests of God and of Christ. In general the service of God is carried on towards God.

Ques. Are they available to Christ so that He can use them in the service of God?

J.T. That is right. They are available and usable, the qualities and characteristics of priests being attached to them; they are priests of God and also priests of the Christ. That would mean that Christ is God, but in a mediatorial position; He can be seen as serving, and they serving with Him.

Ques. In chapter 1 it is said He has made us a kingdom, priests to His God and Father, but in chapter 20 it is priests "of the Christ". Would you distinguish between the two?

J.T. I should. The preposition of I think is characteristic.

Ques. Would priests to His God and Father be more their function?

J.T. It would be that the object of the service is towards the Person, that is, God or Christ, but of is more a characteristic thought.

C.H. You connected the Supper more with the way of the Lord. Is that the thought in 1 Corinthians 11, the Lord's supper, or the lordly supper?

J.T. Well, that is further confirmation of what has been said, and so the Lord's day has the same character. The Lord's supper and the Lord's day are clearly linked together in that sense.

A.McK-p. Has the Lord in mind that His word as to the Supper through Paul is to take precedence over the account in the gospels?

J.T. That is right. Paul has the last word; it comes specifically from him. He says, "For I received from the Lord, that which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus, in the night in which he was delivered up, took bread", 1 Corinthians 11:23. The "I" is emphatic, showing that it is the last word; and, of course, that comports with what has been said elsewhere, that the apostle had the ministry of the assembly and he completed the word of God.

Ques. Does the last verse of Acts 2 indicate heaven's approval of the action taken in the preceding verses?

J.T. Yes, it is, you might say, a formal epitome of what transpired after all that had been said in Peter's address and the number of converts which followed. The whole matter is finished. Then we have in verse 42, "And they persevered in the teaching and fellowship of the apostles, in breaking of bread and prayers". The order would be that which is found elsewhere, "that the Lord Jesus, in the night in which he was delivered up, took bread, and having given thanks broke it, and said, This is my body, which is for you: this do in remembrance of me. In like manner also the cup, after having supped, saying, This cup is the new covenant in my blood: this do, as often as ye shall drink it, in remembrance of me", 1 Corinthians 11:23 - 25. What is to be said further is, that in all matters relative to doctrine

where the apostles have to say to them, they are to be regarded as final; apostolic pronouncements or statements are final, and where they appear they should be first consulted in matters of discipline. Indeed in all matters they should have the priority, for we have in them the final word of the Lord, and in Paul's case it was the completion of the word of God. I do not know whether the brethren generally have recognised this, but it seems to me that it should be for us; and what is said about the Lord's supper is illustrative of the whole point of apostolic authority, that it is final and must have priority in all matters of doctrine, and indeed in everything.

F.I. Does Paul emphasise that in saying that he received it from the Lord in glory?

J.T. Quite so. The matter of the Lord's supper is illustrative of what has been said about all the Scriptures, that the apostolic epistles are final. The word of the apostles as representative of the Lord on earth in any matter must be final and have priority over all others.

A.B. Do the gospels relate also to a transitional period whereas what is in the epistles is final?

J.T. Exactly. Much in the gospels was transitional. They were probably written after the epistles. Another thing to observe is that the bearing of the gospels goes over the wall as has often been remarked. That is to say, they extend generally beyond this dispensation, whereas the apostolic epistles do not, but properly speaking belong to this dispensation and are intended specially to regulate it.

A.H. Does the close of 1 Corinthians 14 support what you are saying, "If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him recognise the things that I write to you, that it is the Lord's commandment"?

J.T. Quite so. It is remarkable how much Paul wrote and especially whilst he was in prison, as if the Spirit of God would give him the advantage of quiet and meditation for the great matter which was entrusted to him. The greatest epistles according to their spiritual authority or importance were written in prison.

A.W.R. Should Paul's writings colour all our thoughts?

J.T. Yes. If matters of doctrine or discipline come up or those relative to the Lord's supper, we must consult the apostles first, especially Paul; the Lord says as to him, "This man is an elect vessel to me". The Lord made a speciality of him; no other apostle had such advantages and privileges as Paul.

G.H.P. In that connection, would you say that in matters connected with assembly order or discipline, it would not be the thing to build any action on the Old Testament alone?

J.T. Not if it could be dealt with through the New Testament. There are things in the Old Testament of course that are not treated of in the New, but wherever the apostles treat of a matter their writings should be considered first, especially Paul's.

D.B. The apostle says in 1 Corinthians 10:15, "I speak as to intelligent persons".

J.T. That confirms what has been said.

J.M. As to our being in assembly, is it what we are vitally and constitutionally as in 1 Corinthians 10, "we, being many, are one loaf, one body; for we all partake of that one loaf"?

J.T. Quite so. We have to recognise that, in the partaking of the loaf, it is representative not only of the Lord's own body according to 1 Corinthians 11, "This is my body, which is for you" but also of the saints as one body, and there is such a thing as our appropriation of them as well as of the Lord and His body.

E.C.M. Does that involve what is inward and promote body feelings amongst the saints?

J.T. I would say that. "We, being many, are one loaf, one body". The bread being alluded to in that way as referring to the saints would mean we have to appropriate the saints. I am using the word appropriate in the sense in which we would appropriate food. Hence the question is raised, Are brethren worth appropriating? persons nominally Christians, are they worth appropriating? are they clean? In the types we have food that can be eaten; animals that are clean and can be appropriated. Hence the word 'fellowship' implies that we appropriate one another.

D.I. There is a word in 1 Corinthians 11, "not distinguishing the body". What would you say as to that?

J.T. I would say it is the Lord's body, they might be erring as regards the Lord's own body. We may appropriate the saints, but we may fail in the matter of the Lord's own body, and so it is spoken of very seriously in chapter 11: "So that whosoever shall eat the bread, or drink the cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty in respect of the body and of the blood of the Lord". These remarks would have to be carefully kept in mind.

J.P. Would it be right to say, that it is necessary for us to appropriate one another in the way that you suggest before we can rightly proceed in the service of God in the assembly?

J.T. I think that is what is meant according to what we had yesterday, that the Lord in the days of His flesh constantly came in and went out amongst His own. When we come to the Lord's supper He waits so as to give the opportunity for us to appropriate each other. He gives us the opportunity to do things as if He would have pleasure in their being done by us, and then He comes in and acts with us.

In the service of God He leaves things to ourselves at first.

W.B. Were the divisions at Corinth the very opposite to the thought of their appropriating one another?

J.T. Just so, that is why it is stressed here. There were different companies there, which implied sectarianism: sects he calls them.

F.I. The appropriating one another would be in the way we come together in assembly, and we view one another as moving in fidelity to Christ, and there is no difference in our affections.

J.T. Quite so, except that in a practical way you make a difference in the capacity, spiritual qualities or growth of the brethren. The question is, What do we think of each other? We are bound to think of each other as the fruit of the work of God, and that implies that each one has the same status as a person, but when we come together we have to think of growth and stature, because the assembly implies that. The assembly is to be used in the great operational matters of God, and spiritual stature is of great importance in that.

Rem. So that John speaks of babes, young men and fathers.

J.T. Quite so. The scripture says for instance, "What hath God wrought!" You have to think of what that implies as to persons. There are differences in persons as we see in Moses and Aaron for instance, as compared with others. Paul and the apostles likewise as compared with others.

H.B. Is that why in Acts 20 we get the names of the various brethren who were present. Is that the personnel and what they were?

J.T. Well, that is just the point. It is remarkable that you have those seven brothers spoken of. They are evidently what Paul would regard as his own work, and what heaven would regard as well. What

a work they represent, and their names are given. I think it bears just on what we are saying, "What hath God wrought!" What has He wrought in our time, and what use are we making of it, or are we declining? Can it be improved? All that enters into this matter.

G.B. Is the appropriation necessary in view of marital response to Christ?

J.T. Quite so. All that must be thought of. Paul speaks of certain saints as "my joy and crown", Philippians 4:1. What suggestions there are in that! Various statements are made pointing to the general thought of the work of God. What variety there is in it! what variety of stature, and of beauty and attractiveness too, but variety of stature. We should think well as to what we have been saying as to growth and stature and attractiveness, because when you come to the assembly personnel it is of great importance. In the types we have Rebecca, and then Abigail who is spoken of as a woman of good understanding and of a beautiful countenance. The Lord surely has a right to think of that with us as to what there might be in each one of us, and in all of us together.

G.E. Are the persons brought in individually in their distinctiveness in Acts 20 before we get the idea of being assembled?

J.T. Well, it certainly goes on to "we being assembled". We spoke of it on Lord's day, that divine Persons allow time to bring out what there is in formation. In Luke 24 it says that the Lord stood in the midst: He allowed them to say so much, then the others that came in from Emmaus said something, and then the Lord stood there as if to approve what had been done so far. In John there is no question at all as to any irregularity, and the Lord says to them twice, "Peace be to you" as if to confirm what was there. It says, "When therefore

it was evening on that day, which was the first day of the week, and the doors shut where the disciples were, through fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst". This means that the brethren were intelligent in the position, and were carrying on themselves before the Lord joined them. That I would say applied at Troas (Acts 20). We have these brothers mentioned, referring to the work of Paul, and then we are told, "We being assembled to break bread, Paul discoursed to them, about to depart on the morrow. And he prolonged the discourse till midnight". He evidently had in mind that something was needed there. According to Luke things were not quite right at Jerusalem, nor were things quite right at Troas, else why should the apostle have to say so much? Why should the Lord's supper have to be deferred? Why did they not break bread at once? It means that they were not up to it.

C.H. Is what you are saying as to personalities confirmed by what is said in Luke 24 that Jesus stood in their midst, whereas in John 20 it is the midst?

J.T. "The midst" in John would mean it is a general allusion to the assembly, but in Luke it is local, wherever the locality is. At Corinth things were not right and the apostle had to speak about the Supper; and in Troas Paul had to say a great deal and the breaking of bread was deferred. Eutychus fell down; he fell asleep, showing that things were not right.

F.I. Would that be the same as in Luke 24, for apparently as the Lord came in these things were not quite right?

J.T. I think it would. Luke 24 shows that things were not right. They were perturbed when they saw the Lord, whereas at first they were able to speak rightly to each other, and the two that came

from Emmaus said something which was good. The Lord stood in the midst. He did not sit, but stood, which would mean that He was there to look after things and to put them right.

A.C.S.P. Do the many references to time in Acts suggest the urgency of matters connected with the way?

J.T. Quite so. How urgent they are. I referred to Acts 2 to bring out the primary position, that the breaking of bread should be considered as part of the way of God. It is part of the way of God that the christian dispensation is characterised by the Lord's supper. It is not that so many persons are there but they are governed by the thought of the Lord's supper, and it is mentioned twice in Acts 2 "They persevered in the teaching and fellowship of the apostles, in breaking of bread and prayers". And then again in verse 46 to point out to us that the breaking of bread was in the house; it was not a temple matter, although other things were done in the temple, but that particular thing was not, it was reserved for the assembly.

F.I. It was not an ecclesiastical matter?

J.T. Just so. When here the Lord had done things Himself. He was working when He was here and continued after He rose from the dead. The great work of redemption is of course assumed, but He is doing His own personal work which included the subjective work of God in His own. According to Luke's first treatise He hasted to go to heaven, and it seems there as if He went up the very day He rose, but it is clear in the second treatise of Luke that He remained forty days. Then again, He is said to have been ten days in heaven before the Spirit came down. So we have first, the forty days, and then the ten days, which would be fifty in all. Why should that be? Why did He not send down the Spirit immediately after the ascension? He was

waiting for the perfecting of what was here in the disciples, His own work, what He had accomplished and then what He would do after He got to heaven. So now in Acts 20, "the first day of the week, we being assembled to break bread, Paul discoursed". Why did he discourse? Why did they not break bread immediately? There is the idea of divine Persons leaving things to show what they are, as in the case of Adam when Jehovah would have him name the creatures. God had pleasure in it for He did not change any of the names. So in Jerusalem the things they did were right and the Spirit came into a state of things which heaven could approve. That is a principle we all have to bear in mind.

S.R. Would you say that the features of Abigail were found with the apostles in Acts 1 before the Spirit came down?

J.T. I would think so.

D.I. Do you mean that the assembly was in expression there?

J.T. I would say so. The interest of heaven must have been wonderful; it was occupied not only with what was up there, but also with what was going on down here, the Spirit being sent down by the Lord Jesus to augment it. Perhaps we do not think much of what is going on in heaven in alluding to what is going on on earth. There is the assembly, the greatest thing that God has devised. Paul enlarges on it in the epistles to the Colossians and Ephesians, what God devised in the assembly and the pleasure He would have in it from Pentecost after the Holy Spirit came down.

G.E. Is there some link between the necessity for Paul's discourse as indicating some defect and what is seen in Eutychus? Is it a question of our arriving at matters constitutionally and by growth?

J.T. Quite so. Therefore the ministry includes all that. One ministering is representative of the

Lord in principle; one who is gifted and is seen as caring for the saints with a view to the work of the ministry. The gifts given include shepherds and teachers who would care for the saints, and the ministry goes on with a view to the perfecting of the saints. So the breaking of bread being deferred in Acts 20 means something was out of order, and the thing has to be held up till matters were adjusted. I believe Paul's long discourse meant that. What happened in the interval would show there was a state of things to be corrected, and when it was corrected they were comforted. It says, "And they brought away the boy alive, and were no little comforted". Paul himself went away after the breaking of bread.

J.C. Is there any significance in what is recorded as to Paul leaving certain things at Troas, his cloak, books and parchments?

J.T. Well, there may be, but the main thing now is a matter of prime importance. The creation in itself is not to be regarded in the same place as the assembly. The assembly is the great ideal of God and is what pleases Him. He is to be glorified in the assembly. "To him be glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus unto all generations of the age of ages", Ephesians 3:21. When He was inaugurating it at Pentecost what pleasure He had in it, and that too before divine Persons come in. Before the Lord comes in, He waits, as it were, to see what is there; He comes in as we are assembled, but not immediately. The word in John 14 is, "I will not leave you orphans, I am coming to you".

W.B. Is Paul's embrace of Eutychus on the lines of our appropriating one another?

J.T. It is indeed. What a comfort it must have been to him. He says, "His life is in him", as if he were able to discern that. That is another matter,

persons able to discern where the brethren are. A spiritual person is able to do so.

J.P. Has God peculiar pleasure in the assembly because of its derivation from Christ?

J.T. Well, quite so. It is a divine matter and involves divine formation. It is the greatest thing in the universe. Acts 2 tells us that the Holy Spirit came down and took the whole matter up and formed it and then the service proceeded, but there is development after that. Many years elapsed before the development was completed by the introduction of Paul.

H.B. Does the long speaking or conversing suggest that the adjustment had taken place?

J.T. Well, I suppose the conversation may have been needed in addition to the discourse. The discourse was interrupted by what happened, and then we see what Paul is capable of, what he did in the assembly in the way of putting things right. The conversation would include all that. Apart from what he said as being needed, they took the boy away, which is a beautiful thought, and they were comforted. He is only a boy, a young person.

C.H. Is the power of recovery seen both in Luke 24 and in Acts 20? In Luke it is the Lord Himself acting, and in Acts it is by the presence and activity of Paul. Is there encouragement in that there is a result?

J.T. There is a result. I suppose while we are down here the necessity for all this is present, but the idea of perfection must be waited for, as Paul says, to "present every man perfect in Christ", Colossians 1:28.

E.C.M. Would this be the way of more surpassing excellence?

J.T. Quite so.

Ques. During what part of the Lord's supper are the saints left free to act of themselves before the Lord comes in?

J.T. From the time we come in and assemble. The word assemble is used, and the Lord Himself assembled according to Acts 1. Here the brethren are doing it; "we being assembled to break bread".

Ques. Would there be some part taken by the saints before the Lord comes in?

J.T. I should say there would. I think it is suitable that there should be a hymn, and perhaps something more, but there ought to be evidence that in a general way we are ready for the Lord.

W.B. Would the suggestion as to our being priests of Christ as well as of God support the thought of worship to the Lord Jesus personally?

J.T. Quite so. We are priests; it is a question of the spiritual ability that is there at the Supper. We are not simply believers, or members of the body of Christ, but we are priests as well, meaning we have skill for carrying on the service.

THE FEMININE SIDE OF THE WORK OF GOD

Numbers 26:33; Numbers 27:1 - 11; Numbers 36:1 - 13

J.T. I thought that the book of Numbers speaks of the work of God and hence we have references to the ages of the people. Whilst the family side is not so stressed as in other books, yet it is found in the passages we have read. The early part of the book speaks of persons being numbered from twenty years old and upward for military service, and from a month old and upward for levitical service, and later from thirty years to fifty years. These facts call attention to the latitude afforded to the work of God. The Spirit being here ensures that the work of God will proceed, and so the persons were numbered according to their ages and work given to them which was suitable to such ages. There is the equipping them for military service and in connection with that the idea of walking. Jehovah said He taught Ephraim to walk, which is a mark of growth. In going through the book the brethren will see that typically there is great latitude for the work of God in its variations, freshness and features of life.

It was thought now, that we might have opportunity to speak of the feminine side of the work of God which the daughters of Zelophehad suggest. It is a most interesting side, and necessarily leads to the truth of the assembly, but chapters 26 and 27 give us the thoughts of God as to marriage, and other family features in which God has His rights. It was thought that the Lord would help us to look at these scriptures having in mind what has been said. The subject itself, apart from the contents of the book generally, is of the greatest importance at the present time, because of certain looseness amongst the brethren. Firstly, there is the inheritance itself and how these women show an appreciation of it. And then the thoughtfulness and a sense of

responsibility in the fathers of the tribes in chapter 36, with a view to maintaining the inheritance of God intact according to the number twelve, into which it is seen divided up so often in the Scriptures. We see that in the twelve tribes, their relations affording so much latitude for love; love in the working out of divine rights. It is important to note that these women had a sense of the moral side. Their father had died in his own sin, he was not with them that banded themselves against Jehovah in the band of Korah; that is, he was not a man who would be led by a party spirit, and Jehovah recognises that, for sin is graded. He recognises what they say, and says, "The daughters of Zelophehad speak right". And then later we have the care of the fathers so that the inheritance should not be in any way dislocated, that the inheritance of the tribes should be kept to each tribe and the divine idea in the tribes, which involves love, should be thus maintained. Earlier we get the thought in the sons of Jacob, they are recorded as being 12, the numeral which involves the activities of love among them.

G.H.P. In referring to the feminine side, do I understand that you are referring to a certain feature of the work of God that should be seen in all the saints, not in sisters alone?

J.T. Quite so. I think that is one feature that runs through Numbers. The work of God is contemplated in its varied features, and we see the beautiful traits of love in which the rights of each and all are recognised.

G.H.P. Does what is suggested in the feminine side lead on to the enjoyment of the inheritance, whereas the masculine side is connected more with the military position?

J.T. I am sure of that. It is not only a matter of marital relations, but the larger and greater thought; the tribal thought is involved, and how the

inheritance of God is treasured in it. Selfishness is shut out by the working of love. In marriage and such like matters there is a tendency towards selfish ness, whereas love thinks of others, and that is what the fathers in chapter 36 represent, I think. The women were regulated as is seen in the fact that they were married according to the word of Jehovah.

H.B. What would answer to the thought of the inheritance today?

J.T. That is a leading point. It is said in verses 53 to 56 of chapter 26, "Jehovah spoke to Moses, saying, Unto these shall the land be divided for an inheritance according to the number of names; to the many thou shalt increase their inheritance, and to the few thou shalt diminish their inheritance; to every one shall his inheritance be given according to those that were numbered of him. Notwithstanding the land shall be divided by lot; according to the names of the tribes of their fathers shall they inherit; according to lot shall his inheritance be divided to each, be they many or few in number". The lot requires that God's rights are maintained. It is not a question simply of each of the tribes, each to himself, or each to his family, but the lot decides, and that makes room for God's rights. In the size of the tribe there is the suggestion that the work of God is in mind. If there be any defects which might tend to reduce the number, all that has to be provided for. So that the work of God is bound to come into it, no matter how we look at it.

Ques. In what way are you viewing the tribes here? I can see that they are connected with the idea of love, there being twelve tribes, but practically for us what do they represent? Is it the saints in a local setting, or are you just applying the thought to the principle of love in its working?

J.T. It would be more the local idea, I thought, but all the tribes are in mind. They came into evidence

at the outset under extraordinary circumstances, having different mothers, which reminds us that no matter how incongruous we may think things are outwardly, there is nothing incongruous inwardly. In the book of Revelation we have a reference to the twelve tribes of Israel in chapter 7; then in chapter 14, where they are seen with the Lamb, and again in chapter 21.

F.I. Have you in mind that the administrative side as suggested in the twelve tribes goes through to the end, but that it is governed by the feminine thought?

J.T. Well, that is so. We see therefore the subjective side, and the work of God would peculiarly enter into that. It is the rights of God, His authoritative rights in the assembly. We have the presence of the Holy Spirit with us, and that will continue from the outset to the end of the dispensation; this results in the subjective side being maintained, and room must be made for that side. That is what these women represent, and God was pleased by their statements; they justify themselves in their words, for God says that they "speak right". This is a great matter as to the feminine side, that things that are said are right and free from selfishness.

A.E.D. The chief fathers would suggest that a mistake on the feminine side could have upset things; so that side seems to be very important.

J.T. The results of the choice made by these women are remarkable, and show how they were regulated by what is right; that is, by what God had prescribed. It is said of these women, "Even as Jehovah had commanded Moses, so did the daughters of Zelophehad; and Mahlah, Tirzah, and Hoglah, and Milcah, and Noah, the daughters of Zelophehad, were married unto their uncles' sons", (chapter 36). Their names are all mentioned and these verses show that they were regulated by the divine word, by the commandment of God. The subjective

right of the Spirit of God is shown in the commandments, as Paul said, "If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him recognise the things that I write to you, that it is the Lord's commandment", 1 Corinthians 14:37. That governs the whole of the epistle to the Corinthians.

Ques. In Numbers 36 there is restriction to the one tribe; how do you understand that?

J.T. They are to be governed by divine regulations. They are to keep within their own tribe, and, of course, if each tribe followed the divine commandment they would all be governed aright. There will be no dislocation or one tribe having more than another unduly; the divine mind comes into it. We must remember that the tribes were not a mere accident, what happened was exactly what was in the divine mind.

J.W. Would we be encouraged to see here that there is true liberty under obligations? They can marry whomsoever they please, only in their own tribe.

J.T. Quite so. It is liberty under obligation. We see that worked out in 1 Corinthians 7:39; where a widow is said to be free to be married to whom she will; "only in the Lord".

Ques. Each one is to marry in his own tribe according to Numbers 36, how do you view the tribe in that particular setting?

J.T. I think it works out in relation to our responsibility; their responsibility was in the tribe, ours is "in the Lord". We must recognise that God's will enters into the smallest detail as well as into big things, and hence, whether it be a brother or a sister, and the question of marriage arises, there must be some recognition of God in what is happening, so that love may be seen to comply with the will of God. It is no accident. In Romans 8 the Lord is said to be "first-born among many brethren". Well,

we may be sure that the word "many" means many, but it fits exactly with the divine mind. So it says in the previous verse, "All things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to purpose". It is "work together"; the working goes on. It is a tribute to the power of God; what is of God goes on and it works together for good. The love of God is seen in the fact that all in our lives works together for good.

C.D. It says in Exodus 2, "And a man of the house of Levi went and took a daughter of Levi". Did he consider for his tribe in that way and do we see things maintained in Moses as a result?

J.T. Yes, you are speaking about Moses' father. What comes out there bears on this very point. It is a question of the levitical tribe and the accuracy of the mind of God working out in it. It says later on, "This is that Moses and Aaron". They are a product of the mind of God, they were needed in the testimony, and they were there, and though Aaron was three years older than Moses, which might entail some exercises with him, yet Moses had the lead.

S.B. These five women got light from God as a result of feminine exercise, and would not further light as to maintaining the inheritance in the tribe be forthcoming?

J.T. Quite so. These tribes run down the line for centuries, and God is watching over them from the very outset, for the result has to be in accordance with the divine mind. We can test that out by reference to the Scriptures and we shall see that the divine mind ran through and all that had to do with it were subject. It is a question of subjection.

J.M. Are these restrictions as to the tribes to conserve what is for God in its own setting?

J.T. Just so. God did what He had in His mind. Things happen in our histories that are incongruous,

but we can be sure that God will reach the result. The time is, however, long, and the divine thought as to the tribes runs through the Old Testament from Jacob. It runs through on the official side in Moses and Aaron, the royal side in David and Solomon, the prophetic side in various prophets, the apostolic side in Paul. These all touch on it. Then it is tested out in the book of Revelation, where in chapter 7 we see the number out of each tribe sealed. How interested God was in the sealing. Then in chapter 14 there were one hundred and forty-four thousand who are with the Lamb on mount Zion. There can be no doubt that the exact number are there. Then all that follows in chapter 14 is the moral side. How perfect it all is, as answering to the position of Christ Himself in view of the millennium. In the book of Ezekiel too, the same thing comes out. It says, "these bones are the whole house of Israel" (Ezekiel 37:11), and although they are all dead they are made to live. All this affords much food for the brethren as to the accuracy of the mind of God and the excellency of the work of God, and how important it is to be in the light of God's counsels and to be governed by them.

Rem. The apostle Paul in the Acts refers to "our whole twelve tribes serving incessantly day and night".

J.T. That is a remarkable reference. The question arises when we arrive at a peculiar crisis in our history, not only in humanity, but particularly in the assembly, as to whether things are working out in our souls and in our bodies and in our minds, to throw aside the enemy's work and to maintain what is of God in the testimony.

Ques. In chapter 36 the inheritance of the fathers is referred to several times. Does it suggest that we should value what has come down to us through the

labours and conflicts of our fathers, especially in connection with the truth governing marriages?

J.T. Well, that is good. The question of marriage is important. We use the words mixed marriages which is a reproach of course, but it is brought into evidence so frequently amongst the brethren. It is important that the will of God should prevail in our households, and that the principles of the world should be shut out, so that there is no seeking after money and the like, but the matter before us is households in the testimony. We see later how the widow had enough so that the man of God might live in her household. The Lord is helping us on these lines. God is taking care of these sisters. So as regards marriage, sisters may count on God to do the best for them, because He can do better for them than they can do for themselves. These women came out well and in a victorious way morally and they spoke well, as Jehovah says of them. They spoke in the presence of Moses and Eleazar and before the princes and the whole assembly. They were not afraid to say what was right and God approved it.

G.H.P. Is chapter 27 more the personal or individual setting, suggesting perhaps the family side, too? It says, "The daughters of Zelophehad speak right". Then is chapter 36 more the tribal setting? "The tribe of the sons of Joseph hath said well". Is that the truth carried forward to the assembly position?

J.T. It is the idea of nobility and intelligence -- Joseph's tribe. God would exalt His own thoughts in these tribes. We see here that spiritual men are acting, so that you have God's word confirmed in what they are doing.

Rem. These women must have been very lovable to God as coming forward here. In chapter 27 they were not looking for husbands, but for the inheritance

that God was bringing them into and they wished to have their part in it.

J.T. Very beautiful. The word is, "Then drew near the daughters of Zelophehad ..." Then in verse 7 of chapter 27, the inheritance is spoken of and those who are to inherit. These women were seeking the mind of God. God's mind has been active on the point, and we want to be in it. We do not want to be selfish, but we do want to have part in the inheritance. They say, "Our father died in the wilderness, and he was not in the band of them that banded themselves together against Jehovah in the band of Korah; but he died in his own sin, and he had no sons". And then the question, "Why should the name of our father be taken away from his family, because he has no son? Give unto us a possession among the brethren of our father. And Moses brought their cause before Jehovah". We can clearly see that heaven is pleased with this whole position. "And Jehovah spoke to Moses, saying, The daughters of Zelophehad speak right; thou shalt surely give them a possession of an inheritance among their father's brethren; and thou shalt cause the inheritance of their father to pass unto them". It seems as if God was saying that they are entitled to credit. If a man fails as their father did, there may be blemishes and faults, but at the same time there is something good, and if God can approve us in any way He will do so. That is a great comfort to children. God is noticing here what the daughters of Zelophehad are saying and He would bring their father into prominence even after he died. It comes into evidence that there is something there that God can approve.

H.B. Do these sisters stand out as an example of the generation that goes into the land, and which had been produced by the exercises of the wilderness?

J.T. Well, exactly. We have the subjective idea there. Although they came by themselves they are insisting on the inheritance of their father, and God says that they speak right. The mind of God is maintained in that sense. The Spirit of God works in the saints thus; it is the power of God, and this is the way it works out. The result comes out in these women, and the Spirit of God refers to them again in chapter 36. In chapter 27 they are seen moving toward Jehovah, as it says, "Then drew near the daughters of Zelophehad ... and they stood before Moses, and before Eleazar the priest, and before the princes and the whole assembly, at the entrance of the tent of meeting, saying, Our father died in the wilderness, and he was not in the band of them that banded themselves together against Jehovah in the band of Korah; but he died in his own sin, and he had no sons". They are in a public position, but not in the sense of being before the world, but it is in the sight of heaven.

S.G. Is it not a great matter that these sisters spoke right? In relation to a crisis is it not important that there should be right speaking continually?

J.T. Very good. We are apt to speak loosely and when sisters get together, and brothers too, they do not always say what is right. We see in the book of Esther a group of women in the king's house, and they did not say what was right. It is better for brothers and sisters to be together and to speak one to another, for in that there is regulation and safety. This chapter is signalised as indicating the work of God, how it works out in asserting the mind of God; the inheritance goes according to lot, but it is according also to the comparative size of each tribe.

Ques. Would you say that, speaking practically, the exercises indicated in chapter 27 would need to

be taken up and entered into before we would be prepared to accept the restrictions mentioned in chapter 36? There is the desire for the inheritance but there is truth also in what is said and acknowledged.

J.T. Well, we come now to the fathers, the fathers of the tribe of Joseph in chapter 36. It says here that "Moses commanded the children of Israel according to the word of Jehovah, saying, The tribe of the sons of Joseph hath said well". It is a similar statement to what had been said about the five sisters earlier. Then it goes on to say in chapter 36, "This is the thing which Jehovah hath commanded concerning the daughters of Zelophehad, saying, Let them marry whom they please; only they shall marry one of the tribe of their father". They may marry 'him who is good in their eyes', as the footnote reads. 1 Corinthians 7 would correspond to this, that a sister is "free to be married to whom she will, only in the Lord". So that there is the idea of a personal choice, at the same time the divine regulation of "in the Lord" which must govern us at all times. Many stumble at that, and sometimes it is said that the person concerned is a Christian, but then are they in fellowship? That is the test. This is where the crisis lies. So it says, "Let them marry whom they please; only they shall marry one of the tribe of their father". Then the general idea comes in as applying to all, but "The children of Israel may possess every one of the inheritance of his fathers, and the inheritance shall not pass from one tribe to another tribe; for each of the tribes of the children of Israel shall keep to his inheritance". The portion of each is part of the whole inheritance, and it is his, but he must keep to it. Then it says, "Even as Jehovah had commanded Moses, so did the daughters of Zelophehad".

Ques. Would you say that "in the, Lord" is to be understood in the light of what you have just been drawing our attention to?

J.T. I would say that. It is not simply that the person is a Christian, but that the bond is to be in the Lord, and that brings in the authority of the Lord.

J.C.T. Is it important that it is the tribe of the sons of Joseph in this chapter? I thought Joseph would be in principle the overcomer and would link on with the word in Revelation 21, "He that overcomes shall inherit these things".

J.T. You are stressing the point that it is the sons of Joseph in Numbers 36.

J.C.T. I was thinking that in Joseph we see very much the spirit of the overcomer and such comes into the inheritance.

J.T. We are told in Genesis 48 that Joseph has one tract of land above his brethren and in the book of Ezekiel also we see that Joseph has two portions (Ezekiel 47:13).

RECOVERY AS SUGGESTED IN SAMSON'S HISTORY

Judges 13:24, 25; Judges 14:1 - 20; Judges 16:22 - 31

J.T. Inquiry was made as to Samson last evening, and it was thought that a consideration of his history would help on the line which has been before us already, especially the feminine side of the truth. There is no section of the book of Judges more interesting or more important than that which treats of Samson, especially from the standpoint of his birth and what led up to it, Manoah's wife being presented as more spiritual than her husband. The spiritual side was before us last evening as seen in the daughters of Zelophehad who knew how to "speak right" in the presence of God, also in the presence of Moses and the elders of Israel. Manoah's wife discerned that an angel had visited her, and while her husband said that some mischief would befall them, she asserted that, "If Jehovah were pleased to kill us, he would not have received a burnt-offering and an oblation at our hands, neither would he have showed us all these things, nor would he at this time have told us such things as these". She is a discerning intelligent woman, which in the main was in mind yesterday, and it is in mind now. The history of Samson proves the feminine side in that sense.

The enquiry last evening was as to whether Samson's exercises about marriage were of God; that is what should engage us first now. It is said in chapter 14 that "his father and his mother did not know that it was of Jehovah, that he was seeking an occasion against the Philistines". The inquiry yesterday had in mind the difficulty of connecting Jehovah's guidance with the matter, because of the

person being a Philistine. It is to be noted, among other things, that we have to consider the results, as recorded in the scriptural account, of facts bearing on the testimony. We have to take account of the results, and here they are very remarkable, and, indeed, triumphant, for Samson had a crown of life. His hair began to grow. The suggestion is of a great failure of a great servant, or we may say failure in the history of the assembly, and yet the recovering grace of God leads to the crown of life, because the growth of the hair implies life. Clearly the suggestion of a crown is there in the power that is seen in the servant after his recovery. It marked him at the beginning and it marked him at the end. We have at the end of chapter 13, "And the woman bore a son, and called his name Samson. And the child grew, and Jehovah blessed him. And the Spirit of Jehovah began to move him at Mahaneh-Dan, between Zoreah and Eshtaol". The translator tells us that the Hebrew word for moved is expressive of powerful emotion, and the significance of this word being used in relation to Samson in his early days is very remarkable. What has been said about the crown of life should be before us now. Great failure has taken place in the assembly, but there has been recovery, and this recovery is marked by life, life in a subjective sense in the saints. So that the assembly will go to heaven triumphantly. There will be the overthrow of the world and that is taking place even now in principle.

Ques. It says, "the boy shall be a Nazarite of God from the womb". What bearing would that have on the matter?

J.T. Well, the truth of nazariteship is wrapped up in it. The book of Numbers teaches us about nazariteship. The Lord Jesus Himself was a Nazarite, and the truth of this is greatly stressed in Scripture.

Samson is clearly an illustration of it, especially in the great evidence of power flowing out.

Ques. Are you suggesting that the same spiritual vigour that marked the assembly in the early days is to mark it at the end?

J.T. That is exactly what I was thinking. The Spirit of God has brought about revival, and indeed that is the suggestion in the book of the Acts, for as early as chapter 9 the assembly had begun to wane and Paul is brought in there. The Lord said of him, that he was to be "an elect vessel to me" which reminds us of revival. The Spirit of God moved in Saul, and immediately there was freshness in the sense of revival, and the great features of the assembly came into evidence, implying power.

Rem. I have observed that in Mr. Stoney's reference to Samson in his book, 'Discipline in the School of God' he remarks that it was not the marriage which was of the Lord, but the fact that he was seeking an occasion against the Philistines.

J.T. Well, that is quite evident. It does not appear that the woman ever became his wife.

Rem. Mr. Darby remarks also that the desire to marry the woman was sin, but it would appear that he never married her.

J.T. Well, God watches over the history of His servants and prevents them from doing what they might proceed in; to that extent anyway, Samson is preserved until he actually discloses his secret of nazariteship. We cannot deny that Samson was a Nazarite until God forsook him. The fact that God remained with him proves he was a Nazarite until he disclosed his secret; indeed he did not know that Jehovah had departed from him. But his hair began to grow, and this would correspond with the history of the assembly at the present time, with the evidence of life, the realisation of life as amongst the brethren.

Ques. Do I understand that you regard this history as having a dispensational bearing rather than providing a precedent for individual action?

J.T. Just so, and it is a very important thing to see that there are such examples of God's overseeing care so that the truth of the dispensation is maintained. That is really more important than anything else. This dispensation should be understood, it is the longest of all the dispensations, and the most prolific, the most resultful, bringing out what God is in His grace and love and particularly in the preservation of His people.

Jno.G. Does the little power of Philadelphia correspond with Samson's hair growing?

J.T. I would think that. "A little power"; and "that no one take thy crown"; that is another thing to be on our guard against.

Ques. Earlier it was said to Smyrna, "Fear nothing of what thou art about to suffer". Might that be a word for us at the present time?

J.T. Well, I am sure that is a word. One has felt it lately in certain events that one has had to do with, that God says to us, "Fear not". It is a word that runs through Scripture, addressed to those who are on God's side. It is said to Joshua, and it is a necessary word in our disciplinary meetings, so that we are not afraid of consequences. We are apt to be too much afraid of how things will affect certain ones and to be influenced by personal feelings and the like; hence the importance of being courageous in carrying out the behest of God in His judgment in the assembly, whatever consequences may arise.

Ques. Would you say a word about Samson revealing the secret of his strength?

J.T. Well, it is the most sorrowful part of the history I would say, and shows that he was a man of like passions with ourselves. He is therefore an

example to warn us, that even although God may continue with us, there may be faults that ought to be judged. The presence of God is in evidence, for He is merciful and watches over us in all that happens. Yet He would insist on individual self-judgment, and collective self-judgment, because if individual self-judgment is maintained, God would say, 'I will be with you'. What He says in such circumstances is, 'I will be with you if you are with Me'. But He bears with us. Some day we may find that He departs, that while we may carry on the outward form of the service of God, He has departed from us.

M.B. Do we see a similar thing in Hezekiah's day when he disclosed what was in the house, (2 Kings 20)?

J.T. God was very merciful to Hezekiah, yet He did not fail to judge the evil. So it is now, though He bears long with us. Indeed the history of the assembly at Corinth is the best example we can get of how God can bear with His people; and yet in time the judgment falls, so that Paul has to say, "Having in readiness to avenge all disobedience when your obedience shall have been fulfilled", 2 Corinthians 10:6. There were many individuals who were disobedient at Corinth. When the saints generally get right, then God will exercise judgment against the offenders.

As to the action of Samson and the part his father and mother had in the thing, we see that God prevented him taking the wife that was allotted to him first, before she is given to another. God intervened in all that, and Samson retained his power and is able to encase it in a secretive way so that it should be there and yet not understood. It has the character of the mysteries of the kingdom of the heavens. Parabolic ministry hides the truth, but the truth is there, and those who have a conscience, and who

have discernment, can see it, whereas the delinquents cannot, and do not, see it. That, I believe, is the principle of parabolic ministry, especially in Matthew's gospel.

J.M. Would you say something about the riddle in chapter 14 in that connection?

J.T. Well, it is clearly an allusion to the death of Christ and the sweetness of the ministry; and then following upon that the Spirit of God implies in chapter 16 the resurrection of Christ in what Samson did when he "seized the doors of the gate of the city, and the two posts, and tore them up with the bar, and put them upon his shoulders, and carried them up to the top of the mountain that is before Hebron". Added to chapter 15 this is a remarkable testimony to the power of God operative in His servant. In chapter 15 we have the great exploit of Samson. It says, "the Philistines shouted against him. And the Spirit of Jehovah came upon him, and the cords that were on his arms became as threads of flax that are burned with fire, and his bands loosed from off his hands. And he found a fresh jawbone of an ass, and put forth his hand and took it, and slew with it a thousand men. And Samson said, With the jawbone of an ass, a heap, two heaps, with the jawbone of an ass have I slain a thousand men. And it came to pass when he had ended speaking, that he cast away the jawbone out of his hand, and called that place Ramath-Lehi. And he was very thirsty, and called on Jehovah, and said, Thou hast given by the hand of thy servant this great deliverance, and now shall I die for thirst, and fall into the hand of the uncircumcised? And God clave the hollow rock which was in Lehi, and water came out of it. And he drank, and his spirit came again, and he revived. Therefore its name was called En-hakkore, which is in Lehi to this day".

It seems to me that chapter 15 suggests the thought of power, especially the Spirit's power, in the water by which he was refreshed. And then in chapter 16 the exploit at Gazah would point to the resurrection of Christ, and not only that, but to the purposes of God reached through it. It says at the end of the third verse alluding to the gates, that he "tore them up with the bar, and put them upon his shoulders and carried them up to the top of the mountain that is before Hebron". The shoulders suggest strength, and Hebron alludes to what antedates the world and to the greatest thoughts we can have. All this lies in the Spirit, but then it is real power too, the masculine thought of power -- the two shoulders. Then we have the failure, which is of course distressing, but at the same time the chapters provide a great delineation of the truth, it may be in relation to the individual, but particularly dispensational truth. So it says the hair began to grow.

H.B. The principle of betrayal comes out twice in connection with Samson and the Philistines. Is that a feature of the world that we should be on our guard against? In the first instance he says, "If ye had not ploughed with my heifer, ye had not found out my riddle"; then too in the case of Delilah they got at him in a cunning kind of way.

J.T. Quite so. That all links on with what we are saying, and the heifer is a very suggestive thought; "my heifer" he calls her, although he never really secured her. The heifer is typical of great affection. It is a female thought suggesting great affection. In Genesis 15, Abram was to secure a heifer amongst other creatures there, and I believe that whatever Samson may have understood, the Spirit of God means that the feminine thought was there, and in due course Christ would secure it; Christ would have the assembly. But God uses the Philistines to deny Samson what he sought. It must

be the assembly that is in the divine thought. And then Delilah is the wicked person. She is found in Revelation, in Thyatira. We have there an allusion to the wickedness of the apostate assembly. The Lord says, "Her children will I kill with death". Moreover she says, "I sit a queen, and I am not a widow; and I shall in no wise see grief", but the Spirit of God asserts that her sorrow will be terrible.

H.B. So these two women would represent a feminine element that is in direct contrast to what we were looking at last evening in the book of Numbers in connection with the daughters of Zelophehad.

J.T. I think so; the link would be strong. It occurred to me this was an extensive subject which ought to be looked into.

Rem. It will be noted that with both these women there is a downward movement. In chapter 14: 5 it says, "And Samson went down" Then in verse 7, "And he went down"; verse 10, "And his father went down". In chapter 16: 4 there is reference to the valley of Sorek in contrast to the mountain in the previous verse. Is there a significance in all that?

J.T. Valleys are dangerous in that sense. All this downward movement is very suggestive, and probably refers to the history of Christendom, because it is all downward from the early chapters of the Acts. Paul began a revival and the Lord took him up in view of it, and then the long period of deflection, until the assembly got on to the level of the world; then the revival we have already spoken of. The Reformation was, of course, a little movement, something of God, but at the same time it did not go all the way. Protestantism does not go all the way. But it is a feature of the actings of the Spirit of God as here, that He will go all the way.

"He shall guide you into all the truth"; not simply what it is partially, but what it is as a whole.

Ques. In connection with Samson it refers at least twice to his avenging himself, whereas with Gideon he spoke of delivering Israel. Is that not a better thought?

J.T. It is indeed. Gideon is certainly set over against Samson in that sense, setting out the service of God before the Angel. Manoah's wife was more in it than he was and it is well that we should not forget that. It comes into Samson's history as well, as we see in chapter 14, and his father being mentioned by himself at times, would, I think, point to defectiveness in the position. It is necessary that the sisters should apprehend all this, so that they may not be onlookers, and simply followers of the brothers. They are to be fully in the truth, and there is no reason why they should not be. The Spirit of God makes much of women who have been leaders in the truth. Manoah's wife's name is never mentioned, but I think she represents the sisters as it says, "Let the women learn in silence". But she does not fail to meet a situation when it arises and to correct her husband.

W.H.T. Certain instructions are given to the women in Scripture.

J.T. I suppose that would be the subjective side. What we have in these Bible readings seems peculiar to the dispensation in our own times. Not that there is any difference in what we have from what they had in the early days, but I think the conversational idea would be more stressed now, and it has given great opportunity for instruction. Whilst it says that the women are to learn in silence, yet they are to learn. They are not to be ever learning and never coming to a knowledge of the truth. I believe in this passage in Judges 13:23, Manoah's wife alludes to the sisters because she asserted what

is right and it was in reference to a remarkable movement which is said to be wonderful, really foreshadowing the service of God.

Rem. One of the instructions given by the angel to the woman is, "and he shall begin to save Israel out of the hand of the Philistines". That evidently was what God had in mind.

J.T. That was what was intended and it is said twice over of Samson that he judged Israel twenty years. Firstly in Judges 15:20, meaning that he was doing it then, and secondly in Judges 16:31. "He had judged Israel twenty years". So that he was not always slaying Philistines, for he was judging; it is a very great matter to have judgment executed and made clear amongst the brethren; things are to be made right and regulated by the truth.

Ques. You were speaking of exploits; would that be seen in some of the exploits of the men of God, in the history of the church, who yet had not the full light of the assembly?

J.T. There were exploits before the Reformation by many dear men of God whose hymns we have, showing what they were. Then in the Reformation itself, how much there was! But not until the Spirit of God asserted Himself amongst the saints do we get the truth of the assembly.

A.B. Do we see Samson's history closed to some extent in verse 20 of chapter 15? It says, "He judged Israel in the days of the Philistines twenty years", and then in chapter 16 we see he immediately turned from a straight path.

J.T. I think God is showing how thoughtful He is of His servants, and that although they may fail grievously, yet He is pleased to say of Samson before his failure and imprisonment that he judged Israel. It says, "He judged Israel in the days of the Philistines twenty years".

A.B. Does the Spirit of God in that way give him credit for what he did?

J.T. And then in the end of chapter 16, "He had judged Israel twenty years". The exercise of judgment is stressed in this servant, and the mention of it reminds us how considerate God is of us, and how ready He is to give us credit. Even if there be failure, the things we are credited with are present and asserted and indeed emphasised.

J.M. What does Samson's remarkable death mean for us?

J.T. I think it is the humiliation that belongs to the position, but we should carefully notice what is said. "But the hair of his head began to grow after he was shaved. Then the lords of the Philistines gathered together to sacrifice a great sacrifice to Dagon their god, and to rejoice; for they said, Our god has given Samson our enemy into our hands. And when the people saw him, they praised their god; for they said, Our god has given into our hands our enemy, and the destroyer of our country, even him who multiplied our slain. And it came to pass when their hearts were merry, that they said, Call for Samson, that he may make us sport. And they called for Samson out of the prison house, and he played before them; and they set him between the pillars. And Samson said to the lad that held him by the hand, Let loose of me, and suffer me to feel the pillars upon which the house stands, that I may lean upon them".

I think we have to learn a little here as to the man himself, in view of his death, the humiliation attached to it, dying with the Philistines, although there is victory in that. He died a prisoner, a blind prisoner, but as to himself he was personally free, and I believe that is what he means when he says to the lad that held him, "Let loose of me". He was free of the world's limitations. The presence of

this lad, of course, was a suggestion that he was a prisoner, a blind prisoner, needing to be guided, but he says, "Let loose of me". He shook off whatever elements of the world remained with him, so as to be free in the exercise of the power of God. I think we will do well to think of that, and to consider whether we are free in our souls and able to shake off whatever elements of the world remain with us, so as to use the power of God as granted to us.

F.B. It was nazariteship that did that.

J.T. Quite so. Samson did it himself. His word, "Let loose of me"; would be as much as to say, I do not need you any more. He knew he was going to die, undoubtedly.

F.B. In connection with the present phase of this dispensation does nazariteship not free us from anything binding?

J.T. By our failure we may lose the characteristics of nazariteship, but as returning to them, as I believe Samson returned in his soul, we free ourselves from what hinders God's power working in us. He knew what was going to happen and said, "Let me die with the Philistines!".

Ques. Would his return to nazariteship be indicated in the hair beginning to grow again?

J.T. That was the beginning of the thing. The revival we have part in now involves that features that are distinctively of the world are to be shaken off; for instance, clericalism, which is a sorrowful feature of the declension, had to be repudiated. This little lad is, so to say, a suggestion of that. Samson was to be free of all that now. We ought to be entirely free of that element.

W.A-s. There is a resumption of liberty with God indicated in Samson's prayer.

J.T. Yes, it is very beautiful. He says, "Suffer me to feel the pillars upon which the house stands, that I may lean upon them". He had in mind to

exercise his power in leaning on them. "Now the house was full of men and women; and all the lords of the Philistines were there; and upon the roof there were about three thousand men and women, who looked on while Samson made sport". It is a most distressing thought! Samson making sport for them! "And Samson called to Jehovah"; he is now free; "and said, Lord Jehovah, remember me, I pray thee, and strengthen me, I pray thee, only this once, O God, that I may take one vengeance upon the Philistines for my two eyes". He is rather small, but still he is speaking to God; he is asking for vengeance for his eyes. He is going to die, of course, but he is praying to God and seeks to exercise the power he had been accustomed to. "And Samson took hold of the two middle pillars upon which the house stood (and he supported himself upon them), the one with his right hand and the other with his left. And Samson said, Let me die with the Philistines! And he bowed himself with might; and the house fell on the lords, and on all the people that were therein. So the dead that he slew at his death were more than those whom he had slain in his life". It seems to me, that there is great victory in this, whilst fully recognising the humbling circumstances; and we must discern that we are in very humbling circumstances since the revival.

J.O.S. Does the fact that the Spirit is not said to have come upon him imply that now there is inward power in Samson?

J.T. I think Judges 16:3, presents a Colossian thought. Hebron is in view; that which is before the world. In Colossians the Spirit is not mentioned in a personal way, the power of the Spirit is more in view.

J.W. Why does the loss of his eyesight weigh so heavily upon him at the last?

J.T. Well, I suppose he felt that was the great shame of his position; "my two eyes". He spoke of them both. He evidently had a judgment in that sense, which we all should have if we are awake. "Wake up, thou that sleepest, and arise up from among the dead, and the Christ shall shine upon thee", Ephesians 5:14. It is a question of the light that belongs to the position which we are in.

J.C. Samson's name is mentioned in Hebrews 11 as one who was an overcomer.

J.T. He is amongst those who come in toward the end, where the writer says, "the time would fail me ..."; there is so much to say. Another beautiful thing is, that there is so much to say, we have hardly time to say it; so much to be done too. The servants of the Lord have not the same latitude or opportunity that they used to have. Time is one of the scarcest things.

Jno.G. Is the hair growing again, and the power which is subsequently seen, an answer to the feminine side that you have been stressing? They refer to the subjective inward side.

J.T. I think it would; a suggestion that the assembly is coming to light; and there is power. Philadelphia, I suppose, would be that phase of the thing, as the Lord said, "Thou hast a little power"; and then what goes with that, "and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name". Further He says, "Hold fast what thou hast, that no one take thy crown"; He has the assembly itself in mind, and says, "Behold, I will cause that they shall come and shall do homage before thy feet", (thy feet, not my feet), "and shall know that I have loved thee". That is a beautiful touch in Philadelphia.

LOVE UNDERLYING PRIESTHOOD

Exodus 4:12 - 17; Exodus 21:1 - 6; Exodus 28:1 - 4, 40 - 43

J.T. It is in mind to consider love as the dominating element in priesthood. That is why the verses in chapter 21 were read because in Exodus Aaron is not formally called a priest until after love is introduced. This is according to a principle which was set out in Adam in naming the creatures of God as they came to him, for the thing was named as it was there characteristically. Aaron is much spoken of before, but is not formally named as priest until chapter 28. This comes in after chapter 21 which refers to love. Aaron is introduced because he had suitable qualities, but particularly brotherly love as seen in chapter 4. Love is seen in chapter 21, and it is to be noted there because of its ascending, descending and horizontal activities. Aaron is seen as having a quality that Moses professed to lack, that is, the power of speech. God said to Moses, "Is not Aaron the Levite thy brother? I know that he can speak well. And also behold, he goeth out to meet thee; and when he seeth thee he will be glad in his heart. And thou shalt speak unto him, and put the words in his mouth; and I will be with thy mouth, and with his mouth, and will teach you what ye shall do. And he shall speak for thee unto the people; and it shall come to pass that he shall be to thee for a mouth, and thou shalt be to him for God". What is in mind to consider now is the love system, a system in which there would be God, and Moses representing the word of God, and then Aaron, not the priest, but the prophet. It is a question of speaking, of what God would say in a public way in order to make His mind known and to assert His rights. It is important that things should be said rightly. It will be noted that in chapter 7 Aaron is

seen as a prophet. As it says, "And Jehovah said to Moses, See, I have made thee God to Pharaoh; and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet". Thus a system is set up in view of the deliverance of the people out of Egypt, and so that, in that deliverance, God is rightly represented systematically. In Aaron God would have one with the ability to speak so as to convey in words what Moses thought. Then we learn in the history of the book that there were priests in Israel; we are not told who they were or what qualities they had, but there were those who had that place in Israel (Exodus 19:22 - 24). When the time came for performing the service of priesthood, Moses selected youths to do it, as seen in chapter 24, but they were not called priests, as if God were saying that youths are not the full idea. Aaron is to be the full idea, because of his power of speech and his being a Levite. It is not simply that he was a Levite, but he was the Levite, and also he was more than that, he was the brother of Moses, and that is the point which is brought out in chapter 28. The thought is not simply that Aaron should perform the office, but that he should serve God as priest. The thing was there, not simply that he was officially that for convenience, but the thing was there. He was to serve as a priest, and his sons were to serve as priests. That is what is in mind and that we may have before us that love is to prevail, also skill and intelligence; that is to say, all the qualities of priesthood are to prevail. We should acquire skill, which is the ability to do things for God, to represent Him here to men. That is something which is essential to the service; God giving ability to us and the power of speech, for He has made our mouths, He has given us too of His Spirit; and, we are told that no one can say Lord Jesus but by the Spirit. So that the Spirit is really the power of priesthood. If we are to carry on the service of God it is to be in the power of

the Spirit; not simply that we know the doctrine, but that we are to have spiritual power.

H.B. God is able to take account of what Aaron would feel in his heart when he met his brother; "He will be glad in his heart", God says. That may perhaps be somewhat testing for us.

J.T. Quite so. It is not that he was just glad in a formal way, which is often the case, as may be indicated in a formal shaking of hands, but the greeting was to be the result of the condition of the heart.

Rem. Peter in his first epistle seems to follow the line you suggest. In the first chapter he speaks of the soul, "Having purified your souls by obedience to the truth to unfeigned brotherly love, love one another out of a pure heart fervently". Then in the next chapter he speaks of the priesthood.

J.T. I was thinking of him, because he is the one among the apostles who uses the word priesthood and distinguishes it in the sense of what it is to God. The service is Godward. It says, "A holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God by Jesus Christ", 1 Peter 2:5. Aaron is clearly intended by the Spirit of God to represent the idea, not simply that he had the office of a priest, but that he was a priest. We know well enough from the facts recorded that Peter went through severe exercises of self-judgment which lead up to priesthood; he was brought to the acknowledgment of sin so that he could act thus for others. No doubt, the apostle Paul had this in mind in connection with him. Galatians 1:18 says, "I went up to Jerusalem to make acquaintance with Peter, and I remained with him fifteen days". No doubt he would gather up an idea of what was current among the brethren in those times, and of what priesthood meant in Peter. Peter on his side spoke of Paul as "our beloved brother Paul" (2 Peter 3:15), and he made

much of his writings. Paul had to rebuke Peter and he accepted it. These things are to be understood and practised amongst us if we are to proceed in the testimony. When he had to speak to the Galatians as to the wrong doctrine that was current among them, he said, "and all the brethren with me" (Galatians 1:2). If there are matters amongst us which are questionable, and which required to be adjusted, then the brethren ought to be brought in. It is a question of love, and we will only descend to argument unless we love, but if we love we can act like Peter and Paul towards each other.

F.I. Is that principle seen at the end of Galatians where it says, "considering thyself lest thou also be tempted"?

J.T. Very good. "Ye who are spiritual", it says in Galatians 6:1. It is clear that the judaizers were not spiritual. They would demand the last farthing, whereas the Lord shows the need of accepting repentance, and that "Whosesoever sins ye remit, they are remitted to them" (John 20:23), showing that one who has sinned is set free by forgiveness.

F.I. What you quote from John 20 follows the Lord breathing into them and saying, "Receive the Holy Spirit". Does that mean He breathed into them His own Spirit?

J.T. That would be the idea exactly. What a lot there is in that, the breath of Jesus; how the Spirit of Jesus would disarm resentment of an offender, because we are to forgive one another.

A.M. Paul speaks at the end of 1 Corinthians 12 of the way of more surpassing excellence and opens up that way in the next chapter which speaks so much of love.

J.T. Well, that is the point, I believe. Chapter 13 is morally the greatest chapter in the epistle. He is speaking about gifts in chapter 12 and, of course, gifts are important, but sometimes assume too much

importance in our minds, for we may exercise gift and be short of love. Paul says, "And if I have prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing". So, if we have not love, however much we may have in other ways, we are nothing.

C.H. So chapter 13 of 1 Corinthians, which deals with love, comes between chapter 12 where we have the gifts and chapter 14 where we see the gifts, especially the gift of prophecy, being exercised.

J.T. That is it. The apostle had in mind to write much, and had already written much, but in the ministry he was thinking of the persons who were involved in the discipline. Chapter 5 brings out the discipline and Paul told them what to do in the exercise of it, but then there was really more in the man than even Paul intimated, because he was restored quicker than it was expected he would be. He had sinned grievously, but he was able to meet the thing in confession and so quickly was he restored that the brethren did not keep pace with the restoration, and this is often the case. We must keep pace with the recovery and confirm it. So the second epistle is to bring out the need of confirmation and that should be in the judgment of the brethren at Corinth, so that the brother should be set free in freedom, and be allowed to breathe, as one might say, the Spirit of Jesus, the spirit of forgiveness. The Lord breathed into them so that they should be qualified to forgive. Why should we continue in hardness and in legal exaction amongst ourselves when the Lord's mind is that we should all be set free?

C.H. In the second epistle in connection with the man Paul says, "On the contrary ye should rather shew grace and encourage, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with excessive grief. Wherefore

I exhort you to assure him of your love". Would that be what is in your mind that true priestly activity was shown towards that man?

J.T. That is what I had in mind. Before Aaron is named as priest we see love is an established principle amongst the people; love in all its features. It is seen in the Hebrew bondman who is typical of the Lord Jesus Himself. In spite of all the restrictions He could say, "I love my master, my wife, and my children, I will not go free". He can say it plainly. Love as a principle is not set up by statutes, but it is there as evidenced in what the bondman said. The Lord says to the disciples, "By this shall all know that ye are disciples of mine, if ye have love amongst yourselves", John 13:35. The thing is there in quality and quantity too.

C.H. The assurance to Moses that his brother had love in his heart would help greatly to remove the spirit of rivalry. They each had their distinctive part in the system.

J.T. The sovereign action of God is seen in the selection of these servants; Moses would be a real test to Aaron because Aaron was his senior.

S.B. Do you think that love in activity would bring the brethren into any matter current amongst us in order to confirm it?

J.T. Quite so. We should not reach a conclusion to any matter if we did not bring the brethren into it. We must bring the brethren characteristically into it.

Rem. If we did not do so we would be on party lines.

J.T. It is objectionable to heaven if we hold to certain things and do certain things in any legal way. Love is the antidote to all that and it never fails.

F.I. If a brother moving on priestly lines and acting in love goes to an erring brother and as a

result there is restoration, is it necessary to bring that to the brethren?

J.T. No, not necessarily, but that raises the question of priesthood. Where there is a leprous condition the priest is to come to the person involved or he may go to the priest, but the priest is always supposed to be available. If the priest be there then there is hope of recovery, and hence where it is the case of a brother who has perhaps been withdrawn from and he is restored in measure, that is to say, restoration is progressing in him, the next question is, Who shall take the lead in the case? It is a case for the priest, not just a priest, but the priest, whoever he may be that takes the matter up let him show that he is a priest. It is said of Aaron, "That he may serve me as priest", not simply to serve as an official priest, but as priest.

J.S. Do we see the thought in Paul towards Philemon and then in the brotherly love of Philemon towards Onesimus?

J.T. Quite so; "If he ... owe anything to thee put this to my account", Paul says. That is important as showing that the thing is there before it is named. There was something in Philemon of which Paul knew, and on account of this he approached him as to restoring the slave Onesimus to his place, not only in his household, but in the assembly. That would be the great point that he might be restored as a brother in the assembly.

C.D. In Luke 7 the Lord could say of the woman, "She loved much". As she came to Him, the Lord as Priest could discern what was there, but Simon could not understand it.

J.T. It is a case of what was there. The Lord says, "Seest thou this woman?" (verse 44). The person who is in question is there and that is a great point. There are priestly qualities there too and the Lord says, "Her many sins are forgiven; for she loved

much". The idea of forgiveness must precede the idea of recovery. She, at any rate, had loved and it was seen in Simon's house. It was a chilly place for such a person but she was there nevertheless.

D.I. In Deuteronomy 15 the idea of a creditor comes in relative to the year of release and he is to relax his hand. Would that come in here?

J.T. Very good. The idea runs through Scripture; it is the power of love. So in that quality we have the idea of the priest set out. It is not only that the thing is there abstractly, but the person in whom it should be seen is there.

R.A. Would you distinguish a little more between the idea of an official priest and what is said of Aaron, "He shall serve me as priest"?

J.T. I was referring to the history of Aaron in Exodus. God took him up to set out this great thing. He is brought in as a necessary substitute, because Moses was not equal to the important part. It shows what God is. He is not giving persons up. He is making the most of them and if Moses cannot do what Jehovah requires He affords a helper who is his brother. He says to Moses concerning Aaron, "When he seeth thee he will be glad in his heart", Exodus 4:14. That would set Moses free in his soul, and then God enhances the whole position in chapter 7 by saying to Moses, "See, I have made thee God to Pharaoh", not a god, but God. God is to be represented in that man personally, and then speaking of Aaron it says, he "shall be thy prophet" (or spokesman). It is not thy priest but thy spokesman, for that was the thing in which Moses said he was defective, that he could not speak. Afterwards he became a great speaker, a great writer too, but God made him all that. Therefore, the thought is to bring out what the priest is, and so Aaron's history is given right up to chapter 28 to show what he was and then he is seen as priest. Jehovah says there,

"That he may serve me as priest", but he is the brother of Moses all the time.

G.H.P. In Luke 10 we have the official priest looking on the man, but passing by on the opposite side, showing that the brotherly feeling was lacking. Over against that we have the Samaritan bringing out the idea of what a person is.

J.T. Just so; all that was needed was there. He did not pass on after he had done what was necessary, but he took the man to an inn and he stayed there till the next morning, showing that love was there. It will not do to say that we have done all that was possible. That will not always do. We must go the whole way and so the Samaritan went the whole way in love.

E.H.M. Was Elihu in the book of Job a priest?

J.T. I would say so. His service brought out what Job was. Finally Job is able to say to God, "I know that thou canst do everything" (@Job 42:2), and then God constituted him a priest because he was to pray for his friends.

A.B. Job was greatly enriched after his recovery.

J.T. I think in all that is being said we see how God would give us examples of priestly energy in men, for that is what is in His mind. It is what is here in the power of the Spirit. Speaking reverently, the Holy Spirit needs the saints that the service may be carried on. In the creation a divine Person operated, but in Christianity, and indeed in all dispensations, we see men available to be used in the service.

C.H. Whilst it says of Aaron first of all that he can speak well, in chapter 7 he is to speak representatively. Do you think that is important?

J.T. I do indeed. We have a representation of God because Moses was to be God to Pharaoh. He was to bring out the features of God. How far he went in that it is hard to say. We have to be on

our guard as to how we speak of Deity. There are those who are brought near and I believe Moses was especially distinguished in that way for it says, "the form of Jehovah doth he behold". He was not an ordinary prophet even; he was beyond that.

G.H.P. Referring to what was said about the Samaritan going the whole way, and that it will not do for us to say we have done all possible, because love never fails; sometimes we are not able to gain a person and withdrawal is considered necessary. Is there something wrong if that is the case?

J.T. Well, of course, that is prescribed for in the Scriptures. Hosea 4:17 says, "Ephraim is joined to idols: leave him alone". That must be done sometimes. We have the Lord's own words, "She hath done what she could" (Mark 14:8), so that is a formula which you can use. Brethren, perhaps, have gone the whole length according to the Scriptures and even according to love; they have done their best, they have visited the person concerned, and yet nothing has resulted, for it is a question of the state of the person. How many are malformed! What can you do? The malformation is there and it requires an act of power on the part of God to change it, and God is not always pleased to do that.

F.B. If love were more in evidence there would be more for God.

J.T. I would think so. The great matter now is to decide how to meet the situation which has arisen on account of lawlessness having come in. We are on the border of the apostasy and the position is a most difficult one, and yet there is a way out. I believe God is dealing in His governmental ways, His sovereign ways, to modify conditions so that our way is not entirely shut up. We can go almost anywhere today and break bread and minister freely, which is a great comfort. God has done that

for us, and has used men so that the brethren are free to go on in His service.

Ques. In regard of the point raised about persons not being gained, would the thought be that we are constantly to be in the spirit of the bondman and prepared to serve at any time as opportunity offers?

J.T. The priest is there, which is a point of great encouragement. Numbers is not the priestly book, nor is Deuteronomy; Leviticus is the priestly book, and the priest is always there, showing that God has means of carrying on for He has the priest. You can always find the priest.

Ques. The man in Luke 10 is spoken of as being half dead, and is that not the kind of case that tests us most? The official priest passed by in Luke 10, but if the man had been dead he would perhaps have known what to do.

J.T. I think the true priest, one who could meet a half dead case, is contemplated in Romans 7, and he himself had to reach that point. It was a matter of coming to it in his own soul and no doubt Paul reached it. "I myself with the mind serve God's law" (verse 25); it is with the mind. If we were to tax our minds more, our pure minds which are contemplated in Romans 12, we might find solutions to some local difficulties, so that, instead of depending on brethren a long distance away, we could look around in the local meeting or the nearby meetings, to get the nearest man and see what he can do. Hence it says, "Ye who are spiritual" (Galatians 6:1), they are really priests. A word of wisdom would perhaps be the solution of the difficulty, and get to the source of the trouble.

J.O.S. The word in the prophecy of Haggai is, "Ask now the priests concerning the law", (Haggai 2:11).

J.T. Just so; and in Malachi also we have, "for the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and at his

mouth they seek the law", Malachi 2:7. That is seen in Aaron.

C.H. In matters of difficulty we find often that the priestly feelings that do exist are inarticulate. Is that not where a priest like Aaron would come in helpfully?

J.T. Quite. It says he can speak well. We find illustrations of that throughout Scripture, and I believe 1 Corinthians 13 is the solution, for love never fails.

R.McG. What would be the particular point in what it says, "He can speak well"?

J.T. Because it was what was needed then. It would seem as if Aaron had prayed to God. Moses does not allude to him earlier, but Jehovah knew him. How did He know him? Speaking reverently, God had heard him say something to Himself.

Ques. The thirteenth chapter of 1 Corinthians to which you referred makes much of love, and that chapter follows the reference to the gifts set in the assembly. Are the gifts to be exercised in the priestly way of which you spoke?

J.T. Yes, we have helps and governments referred to in chapter 12. "Governments" are more defined, but "helps" are indefinite, but still the word is noticeable. Love would go all the way in the exercise of these gifts.

Ques. Would the much detail in connection with the priestly service associated with the restoration of the leper show how essential love is?

J.T. What a lesson there is in all that! It speaks of the leper standing outside his tent door and the number of days he had to do it and all the other details there are. It is, I believe, to show the skill of love. It is important not to bulk things together, but to do them one by one, and we see that in all the detail connected with the case of the leper.

C.H. It is encouraging to see that in the case of the leper the thing goes on to completion, for the man as cleansed is eventually anointed and thus able to take up things himself.

G.H.P. The word in the prophet Malachi is striking, "For the priest's lips should keep knowledge". We might have thought it should say, "speak knowledge". Are difficulties sometimes prolonged by wrong speaking and the inability on the part of some to keep things?

J.T. And then "at his mouth they seek the law"; the thought of the mouth is beautiful. One has often thought that it is God's masterpiece in human creation. Mark makes much of the power of speech. The Lord groaned when He beheld the man who was defective in his speech; in Mark 7 we read, "And looking up to heaven he groaned, and says to him, Ephphatha, that is, Be opened. And immediately his ears were opened, and the band of his tongue was loosed and he spoke right". The man there could henceforth act like the daughters of Zelophehad, of the tribe of the sons of Joseph, who spoke right. It is not simply that we can enunciate our words, but that we can speak right morally.

R.McG. Do the friends of Job represent the official side which is often found lacking?

J.T. I think they had themselves in mind, and how great their fathers were, and so forth, whereas Elihu had none of that. He was a man full of matter received from God, but he waited for his elders to speak. I believe the book of Job brings out the system which we are now in, and the priestly service is in mind in the way he deals with those who had been unbrotherly to him. Then God blesses him. I am sure that is how things would go. God is blessing those who are abiding by the truth.

S.M. We are told that the daughters of Zelophehad "speak right" and here it says that Aaron

"can speak well". Have you anything further to remark about that?

J.T. "Who hath made man's mouth?" Jehovah said. He knew all about Aaron and says, "I know that he can speak well", and that was not simply because He had made his mouth, but He had heard him speak.

J.M. Have we special help now in speaking, the Holy Spirit having come? I was thinking of 1 Corinthians 2:13, "Words ... taught by the Spirit".

J.T. That is just what I was thinking. Christianity depends on the Spirit, but it depends also on the saints, and the Lord made a point of that, when He said, "I will beg the Father, and he will give you another Comforter, that he may be with you for ever", John 14:16. The word Comforter is to be noted. It is a Comforter down here because Christ is up there. That is how the system is set up and that is how it continues and will continue. The Spirit is to stay until the divine will is fulfilled and then the saints will go up, for the Lord is coming for them. The Spirit does not take us up, the Lord is coming Himself, which is a beautiful touch. He comes for us and we join Him up there and so we shall be for ever with the Lord. The system is complete as to its present effectiveness and another system will be taken on presently, but the system of Christianity is the most perfect of all, the longest and the most resultful. Every member of the assembly is to come into it.

S.B. So that whilst we have the help of the Spirit, we have to fit ourselves into these things. It says of the Spirit, "He shall teach you all things, and will bring to your remembrance all the things which I have said to you".

J.T. It shows how the system is perfected here. Colossians tells about the perfecting of every man.

That is what the apostle had in mind and it is what is in mind now; the thought is great and we should be industrious in order to fill our part in it.

S.G. Is what you are calling attention to seen in Peter and John in Acts 3? Peter said to the lame man, "Look on us", and further, "What I have, this give I to thee".

J.T. Quite so. So Exodus 28 is the great priestly chapter and we have not finished it until we have the sons. The sons are touched on from the very beginning, but Aaron is in view almost throughout. The sons are seen as having caps, which means intelligence, and then the breeches or trousers both for Aaron himself and for the sons. So that there is the power of truth working out in holiness. I believe that is the idea in the clothing. The first part of the clothing is wonderful. It is the unfolding of wonderful things of which we should never tire. The present is a young men's time and a young women's time. Holiness and sobriety are so much needed in order that the priestly service should go on. Youths are used in chapter 24, but in chapter 28 it is Aaron's sons. The dignified thought is the sons of Aaron and they are to serve with their father, but the clothing is remarkable because it tends to produce sobriety and holiness in our service.

READINESS FOR SERVICE

Luke 24:28 - 36; John 20:14 - 23; Acts 1:15 - 26

J.T. It is in mind to show that the Lord, in joining the disciples, as seen in John and in Luke, affords opportunity for them to do things, to act for Him, and the facts show that they acted with intelligence. John's record has this clearly in mind. Luke's record is less definite as to the Lord coming, in fact it does not say that He came, but that He "stood in their midst". I, says, "as they were saying these things, he himself stood in their midst". The things they were saying were right. Then further, Luke, in the Acts, shows that the number of the apostles must be complete, the number being twelve. According to Acts the Lord remained with them for forty days after He arose, and then went up to heaven and was there for ten days before He sent the Spirit. There was enough time for them to show that they had right exercises and intelligence, and specially that the Lord's designed number should be completed.

These remarks are made having assembly service in mind. God has recovered this truth to us and has greatly enlarged upon it in the ministry, yet one notices that there is considerable hesitancy in going forward on the principles mentioned, before the Lord joins us at the Supper. There is considerable hesitancy and awkwardness and lack of intelligence too, and hence time is lost. It is hoped that these scriptures, with the Lord's help, may help us as to the great matters that are involved in the service of God, so that we may be ready. One of the things that is mentioned in connection with the Passover, which preceded the institution of the Lord's supper in the gospels, is that the disciples were to make things ready, and the suggestion of containing vessels is mentioned. There is the pitcher of water and then

the cup, and these bring out the idea of vessels which would be usable in the service of God.

G.H.P. Is your thought that we are lacking in these features of the truth to which you refer and hence the slowness and awkwardness as we come together?

J.T. Just so. And that is seen not only in the Lord's supper but also in what follows on the first day of the week, and in other meetings such as prayer meetings and Bible readings. There is a great waste of time because there is not readiness for service in a priestly way. The epistles to the Corinthians are intended to govern assembly service externally and hence the great stress on order in those epistles, especially the first. So it is a question of the priests being ready.

C.H. The disciples and those with them appear to have had great experiences, but they did not seem to connect them with the Lord coming to His own, for when He came they did not discern the fact, nor were they ready for Him.

J.T. They were not ready in Luke. John, however, in his account shows they were ready. There is no need to wait. It would be perhaps wise to take up Luke first, as he indicates adjustment is needed.

F.B. You stress the idea of intelligence; how is that to be obtained?

J.T. Well, that is a good question, and Luke helps us particularly as to it. He tells us that one of the disciples, seeing the Lord praying, asks, "Lord, teach us to pray", Luke 11:1. And then, apostolically, Paul is the great servant whom the Lord uses. Of course, all the apostles were qualified, but Paul is peculiarly qualified to teach. So in view of the Lord's supper, which is the great initial feature in the service of God, Paul says, "I speak as to intelligent persons"; that means, that he takes them up abstractly, as if they were that, and he had a great

part in teaching them. It was through him that they were converted. The Lord said to him in Corinth, "I have much people in this city". We also see Paul and Barnabas in the service in Antioch, and it is said that "for a whole year they were gathered together in the assembly and taught a large crowd". The suggestion is that initially they were a crowd, but the teaching for a year brought about an assembly in the place, and they were serving God. Then in Acts 13 we have names given, and the saints there were honoured in serving the Lord and in laying their hands on the two missionaries Paul and Barnabas. The Lord honoured them as evidently they were ready to join in the great operational service that He had in mind. That service was completed too, and Paul and Barnabas returned to Antioch whence they had been committed to the grace of God for the work which they had fulfilled. Then it says they stayed no little time with the disciples. All this would help to bring out this great matter that is now before us. The Lord, in Matthew, says, "Come to me, all ye who labour and are burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me". That is what is needed. He is the Model as well as the Teacher, and so John, as having love in mind would have things right, and he tells us that those who left John the baptist, and followed Jesus called Him "Rabbi", which means Teacher. They desired too to know where He dwelt, saying, "Where dwellest thou?" and He says, "Come and see", John 1:38, 39. He would have them go to where He dwelt, as if to suggest that they would then know how things were done. In keeping with that Mary .Magdalene later on says to the Lord, "Rabboni". She needed teaching very much. She is much thought of by many of us, and rightly so, because of her love for Christ, but it was an unintelligent love at the first.

So it was stressed in her own words that the Lord was her Teacher, and I believe that is the idea that we would have before us in John's gospel. It says, "They shall be all taught of God", John 6:45. Lack of teaching and the imperfectness of the teaching is one of the great weaknesses, resulting in what is unsuitable happening in the service of God.

F.I. In Luke 24 the Lord drew nigh to the two who were going away from Jerusalem and in His gracious way so brings things before them that they realise they are moving m disobedience. They return to Jerusalem and find those gathered there saying, "The Lord is indeed risen and has appeared to Simon", indicating that the Lord had also been moving in grace to Peter, and then they relate their experience.

J.T. Well, that is very good. One was struck this very day with the severity of the Lord's language to those two on the way to Emmaus, "O fools and slow of heart", He says to them (Luke 24:25). He points out that they were defective in the truth of the Scriptures. "And beginning at Moses ... he expounded unto them ... the things concerning himself". Luke in that way would show that the Lord stressed the idea of teaching in recovering those two. Then as He went on and spoke to them, their hearts burned; that is the inward effect, and after that He vanished from their sight, because His desire was that they might be set in movement. They then returned to Jerusalem that same night and found the eleven, and as coming in they knew what to say. There was something already being said, but it was not enough. There was something else to be said, and the two who were recovered said it.

H.B. Are we to understand that the defect is absence of teaching, but that we have not profited by the teaching?

J.T. Quite so. Very soon after the time of the apostles we find that leading persons in the assembly had turned to human methods and to human education, and hence the great religious system of learning which we find all around us. But it was not all departure and God has come in to revive the truth. We see, too, how men have been raised up to teach and qualified not by the colleges or the universities, but by God. Timothy and others like him were raised up to teach. He becomes a qualified teacher and those who come down after him were to teach others. God has provided teachers.

Ques. Is it in mind that insubjection might underlie our lack of intelligence? In John 13 the Lord says, "Ye call me the Teacher and the Lord, and ye say well, for I am so", and then He says, "If I therefore, the Lord and the Teacher". He reverses the order of the titles as if to stress the importance of subjection. Is that necessary for us in order to get the gain of the teaching?

J.T. Yes, and that we should value the teaching. I believe Enoch being "the seventh from Adam" is a suggestion of one who has learned all that preceded him from Adam. Much had come out in the course of time and through the channels specified and it all had to be gathered up, the fragments. The teaching of the Holy Spirit is precious, and it has to be gathered up, but the idea is for us to gather the things up in our souls. It is said of Samuel, that none of his words fell to the ground. How often it is, that things said at the meetings are immediately forgotten. We speak of good meetings, but the goodness does not extend beyond the meetings. The things are forgotten and not carried through and made use of.

E.C.M. It says of Mary in Luke 2 that "she kept all these things in her mind, pondering them in her heart".

J.T. Very good. And that is characteristic of Luke.

W.A. Is that what Luke had in mind in writing to Theophilus, that we might know the certainty of the things in which we have been instructed? There should be no uncertainty.

J.T. Quite. And he writes with method. I suppose that would enter into the book of Revelation which was reserved, and is an additional matter in the order of the revelation of the Scripture. The Lord in chapter 1, after saying to John, "I am the first and the last, and the living one: and I became dead, and, behold, I am living to the ages of ages", tells him to write and gives him the order in which he should write. These principles ought to enter into all ministry, because gift is a great feature of the present operations of God. In Revelation we have the order, namely, "what thou hast seen, and the things that are, and the things that are about to be after these". These three divisions mark the book of Revelation. It is a remarkable book, and the order in which it is written should be noted, for the Lord told His servant how it was to be written. So in view of gift the power of speech is in mind, and speech capable of conveying right thoughts, because the idea of the word of God is that the thoughts of God are to be rightly presented, that those who hear should profit by the things they hear, as they are set out in an orderly way.

C.H. Would what you are calling attention to be seen in Peter in the Acts where, as he was speaking, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were hearing the word? Were Peter's words accredited in that way, and did the Holy Spirit act in relation to them because they were in keeping with the truth as a whole?

J.T. Quite. God without doubt governmentally ordered it that there should be such a language as

Greek which is especially intended to enter the human mind and illuminate it. It is important that the brethren should have those that are ministering in mind, and that there should be concern that they speak right. In Mark's gospel the Lord Himself makes much of speaking right. In chapter 7 we read of a deaf man who could not speak right and in loosing his tongue the Lord looked up to heaven and groaned, a most remarkable thing, and He says, "Ephphatha". This shows how much entered into the Lord's service to this man in view of his being made to speak right.

F.I. Have you the same thing in principle in Luke 24? Before we have the Lord indicating to the disciples the fact that repentance and remission of sins was to be preached in His name to all the nations, we have the fact recorded that He opened their understanding to understand the Scriptures.

J.T. Just so. Some of us have noted that in Luke the Lord (speaking reverently) appeared to hasten to the ascension. If we were to go by the actual wording in Luke 24 we might conclude that the Lord went up to heaven on the day He arose. I believe the Lord intended that His own should be impressed with the fact that He wanted to reach that point, for there were great operational matters to be entered on, and they have continued now for eighteen hundred years and are still going on. The Lord, as it were, hasted to go to heaven so as to proceed with the great matter of the gospel and of the assembly. In Luke 24, verse 36, we read that "as they were saying these things, he himself stood in their midst". The Lord valued what they were saying. He must have been pleased that they could speak right and in an orderly way. They were gathered together, saying, "The Lord is indeed risen and has appeared to Simon". That is a remarkable statement to have on record. Then these two who

had been recovered had their part in relating what had happened on the way and how He was made known to them in the breaking of bread. That was a great matter also. They had received a touch sufficient to move them and they moved at once. They were able to say these things which were needed to be added to what had already been said by the disciples. Then it goes on, "As they were saying these things, he himself stood in their midst". It does not say that he came, although we might think He did, but the thought is rather that He was there. It shows that He is not far away at any time. Then the Lord says to them, "Peace be unto you. But they, being confounded and being frightened, supposed they beheld a spirit". As already remarked they were not ready, which is very often the case with us and we lose time. "And he said to them, Why are ye troubled? and why are thoughts rising in your hearts? behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Handle me and see, for a spirit has not flesh and bones as ye see me having. And having said this he shewed them his hands and his feet". It shows how a state of unreadiness might hinder the Lord. Then He said to them, "Have ye anything here to eat?" This I would apprehend would be the conclusion. The Lord would hasten to the conclusion. "And they gave him part of a broiled fish and of a honeycomb; and he took it and ate before them. And he said to them, These are the words which I spoke to you while I was yet with you, that all that is written concerning me in the law of Moses and prophets and psalms must be fulfilled. Then he opened their understanding to understand the scriptures, and said to them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved the Christ to suffer, and to rise from among the dead the third day; and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name to all the nations beginning

at Jerusalem". This is the point that was in mind to bring out and to show that the matter of the gospel was in the divine mind, that it should proceed without delay, and as we shall see later, the assembly too. The Lord then goes on to say, "And ye are witnesses of these things. And behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you; but do ye remain in the city till ye be clothed with power from on high". From this we see that if the matters in mind are to proceed, all these things must happen so that there should be witnesses here and the divine system set up. It seems to me that these are matters of great importance and the instruction is that time should not be wasted, but that we should be ready as such services are opened up, to proceed in them.

J.G. Do we get the thought in Luke 12 where we see the Lord giving certain instructions to His disciples, having in mind that when He comes and knocks they may open to Him immediately?

J.T. Quite; they may open to Him immediately.

S.R. In the case of Joseph and his brethren he says, "Come near to me, I pray you". Was he looking for things to proceed?

J.T. I am sure he was! He had a great matter in his heart and Joseph is a type of the Lord in this very matter. He was a man of affairs. We marvel as we think of the great men of old, such as David and Solomon, how they carried on their household affairs and at the same time were able to carry on with the things of God. In the Psalms too we see how much David was able to do, and then how much Solomon was able to do, and all this indicates how much we may be able to do. It is a question of doing things, as it says of the Lord, "All things which Jesus began both to do and to teach".

J.C.T. When it says, "As they were saying these things, he himself stood in their midst", is it in your

mind that what we say as we are together would enable the Lord to come in?

J.T. That is what I was thinking, and I was saying also, that the two took a good journey that night covering about eight miles. They did not intend to do it, but the Lord so stimulated them that they started out immediately and they came and found the eleven. They did not go to a hotel, but went to the brethren. Then there is what the company were saying, and what the two from Emmaus could say, and then what the Lord did following that and in keeping with it. There is also the inward service of opening their understanding and telling them what should be preached, and then His going up, as if He would say to them, that He could carry on now that they knew what to do and were ready for service. Much more had to be done, and in view of that the Lord enjoins them not to go from the city until they were given power from on high; that must take place, for the Spirit of God must be recognised.

C.H. In view of the Lord going on high He seems to be putting it upon them that they were to be witnesses of Him. Is He appropriating them as they are available, although they were not fully intelligent?

J.T. We might confirm that from the first chapter of the Acts. This second treatise, as Luke calls it, was evidently an afterthought. We cannot say how long a time had elapsed between the writing of the first one and the second one, but it was addressed to the same person. It says, "I composed the first discourse, O Theophilus, concerning all things which Jesus began both to do and to teach, until that day in which, having by the Holy Spirit charged the apostles whom he had chosen, he was taken up; to whom also he presented himself living, after he had suffered". Several things are said in the chapter

that are very important, specially from verse 10 and going on to verse 14. The whole matter is set out in order with a view to the great matter that is in the divine mind being apprehended, and then the next chapter brings out the great thought of the Spirit and His operations.

C.H. Are you thinking that they are holding to the whole idea of the twelve, and that they set about to remedy the broken situation which had arisen?

J.T. That is why I thought we should read that closing paragraph beginning with verse 15, "And in those days Peter, standing up in the midst of the brethren, said, (the crowd of names who were together was about a hundred and twenty,) Brethren, it was necessary that the scripture should have been fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke ... concerning Judas, ... It is necessary therefore, that ... one of these should be a witness with us of his resurrection". Another thing that should always be before us, is to recognise that the Lord has constituted elders fitted to lead and give direction to the brethren generally, so that there is no stoppage or delay. We may proceed to the right point at once and do it.

F.I. In Acts 1 in connection with the appointment of one to take the place of Judas, Peter is able to give a lead and he acts according to Scripture and that was before the Spirit came down.

J.T. Yes. He had learned much already. The apostles were all supposed to be complete in their education, and so they are constituted as authoritative, and hence when the Spirit begins to operate He directs these converts to Peter. They themselves discerned that Peter and the eleven were men of whom they could ask questions, and get answers. The result was that "they persevered in the teaching and fellowship of the apostles, in breaking of bread and prayers", Acts 2:42. So that the matter is set up and it has not been altered. The apostles

of course have died, for "one generation passeth away, and another generation cometh", but divine things continue at the present time, and the economy remains.

In the earlier verses of Acts 1 the Lord is saying, as it were, 'I am doing as much as I can for you'. The Lord was infinite, but at the same time, He was acting as the Mediator for God and hence He speaks of the Father placing certain things in His own authority. So the Lord does all possible for those whom He was going to use, but He is saying, so to speak, 'I want to go up there'. The system must be set up there and the proceedings will go on henceforth from that centre; that is where the centre is, in heaven.

J.W. It says in 2 Chronicles 30, that Hezekiah spoke consolingly to all the Levites that had understanding in the good knowledge of Jehovah. Is that word to encourage us?

J.T. Quite so. The knowledge of Jehovah, and they are all ready for the work.

J.W. At the close of that chapter it says, that "the priests the Levites arose and blessed the people; and their voice was heard, and their prayer came up to his holy habitation, to the heavens".

J.T. That is what we get here. They had continued in prayer and then the Spirit came down, because that is the great climax of all God's operations, and now, as we are saying, simply and humbly and reverentially, He goes up, because the great operational system is up there and it is to continue its operations from there.

Ques. What was the thought of waiting ten days before the Spirit is given?

J.T. The Lord, I think, was giving the apostles an opportunity to show how much they had been affected. I believe He had great pleasure in what there was with the disciples. Mark would make

very little of them, he says they were unbelieving. These persons had such an opportunity to learn things from the Lord, but they were unbelieving, but in due course the Lord says to them, in spite of the fact that they were unbelieving, "Go into all the world, and preach the glad tidings to all the creation. He that believes and is baptised shall be saved, and he that disbelieves shall be condemned", Mark 16:15, 16. The work is to go on; we cannot afford to waste time; things must be done for the time is short.

G.B. Would Rebecca and Abigail illustrate the features of preparedness, intelligence and sacrifice, in line with your thought?

J.T. Quite so. They are seen in both. Intelligence such as we see in Rebecca is needed, but especially so as seen in Abigail. She was a woman of good understanding, and ready to discern what was needed, and her young man is typical of a person who belongs to the assembly today. If we should hear anything that is apt to militate against the truth we ought to tell the brethren. This young man was a servant of Nabal, but he was also a servant of Abigail, and he told Abigail what a difficult man Nabal was and warned her to see to it. She took his word and did what was needed, and then David says, "Blessed be thy discernment". David himself thus honours Abigail, as she showed that she knew what to do and what to say, and she acted accordingly. In all that she said and did David was the central thought with her.

S.G. Would what the Lord says in John 14 be in line with what you have before you, "He that believes on me, the works which I do shall he do, also, and he shall do greater than these, because I go to the Father"?

J.T. That corresponds with what we are saying. The personnel in the upper room are set over against

clericalism; the outward formal and antiquated religion having lost its power, the upper room was the centre of all that the Lord had. The Lord Himself had centred all that He had there, and so we have the list of those who were there, beginning with "Peter, and John, and James, and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James son of Alphaeus, and Simon the zealot, and Jude the brother of James. These gave themselves all with one accord to continual prayer, with several women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren", Acts 1:13, 14. These are the personnel, you might say, in view of the great operational dispensation that was now ahead, and we can see what pleasure the Lord had in them and how He would foster them from heaven and furnish them with all that was needed down here and teach them, as we have already remarked. We read in Luke 11 that one of the disciples said to Him, "Lord, teach us to pray". There is no need for a prayer book in the new system. There is need for a hymn book, but prayer should be spontaneous, the outcome of the Spirit operating in our hearts. So the idea would be to overthrow all antiquated religion which God has abandoned, and to maintain that which is of God. These are the persons that the Spirit of God would occupy us with, in view of the services that are now opening up to us.

THE PROMISES OF GOD

Hebrews 6:1 - 20

J.T. This scripture is proposed not only because it instructs us as to the promises of God, but also because the apostasy and the consequences of it are contemplated in it as the alternative to the appropriation of the promises. The non-appropriation of the promises will mean falling away; that is, apostasy. The chapter is intended to strengthen us in the truth so that we should go on to the end, as it says, that "we might have a strong encouragement, who have fled for refuge to lay hold on the hope set before us, which we have as anchor of the soul, both secure and firm, and entering into that within the veil, where Jesus is entered as forerunner for us, become for ever a high priest according to the order of Melchisedec". The writer is aiming throughout the whole epistle to get the saints steadily going on and entering into the holiest, which is the final thought. We read in Hebrews 10 of the day drawing near; that is to say, faith discerns the circumstances of the moment, and notes that the day is drawing near. It is not simply the end of this dispensation, but the day drawing near, and this chapter is intended to strengthen us to go on. It is intended therefore that we should understand and use the ways and means by which we can pursue the way of God until the end; this is in mind throughout the epistle.

Ques. Were you connecting the day drawing near with the promises?

J.T. Yes. What is in mind is that the young people especially may lay hold of the promises; the allusion in Hebrews 6 is to Abraham in Genesis 22. There is a danger of young people

truth mentally, whereas this passage contemplates the soul of the believer, as it says, "we have as an anchor of the soul". The mind, of course, is used by the believer, but the soul is the seat of affections, feelings and consciousness. It is worth while counting on the promises of God, for we are held in our souls by them.

F.B. The promises to Abraham were substantial.

J.T. Quite so. Genesis 22 stresses the oath and the promises -- the swearing of God and the promises of God. As Abraham is ready to lift up his knife to slay Isaac, it says, "The Angel of Jehovah called to him from the Heavens, and said, Abraham, Abraham! And he said, Here am I. And he said, Stretch not out thy hand against the lad, neither do anything to him; for now I know that thou fearest God, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son, from me. And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold, behind was a ram caught in the thicket by its horns; and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered it up for a burnt-offering instead of his son. And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovah-jireh; as it is said at the present day, On the mount of Jehovah will be provided". Then further it adds, "And the Angel of Jehovah called to Abraham from the heavens a second time, and said; By myself I swear, saith Jehovah, that, because thou hast done this, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son, I will richly bless thee, and greatly multiply thy seed, as the stars of heaven, and as the sand that is on the seashore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth bless themselves, because thou hast hearkened to my voice".

Great promises are made to Abraham and secured to him by oath. Following that he returns to his young men and they rose up and went together

to Beer-sheba and Abraham dwelt at Beer-sheba. He is now resting in the oath and promise of God. Beer-sheba is the well of the oath. God is resting all for Abraham in the promise made to him, and Abraham going to and dwelling at Beer-sheba suggests a state to be sought after, one of restfulness in the knowledge of God.

F.B. In that sense Abraham embraced the promises.

J.T. He saw them afar off and embraced them. Young believers are sometimes remiss in this respect; their minds are clear, but their souls are lean, because of not laying hold of the promises of God.

H.B. It also says in Hebrews 11 that "Abraham ... had received to himself the promises".

J.F.C. Would you link that up with Acts 2:39 where it says, "For to you is the promise and to your children"?

J.T. Quite. Peter brought in the thought in connection with the gospel, saying, "For to you is the promise and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God may call". That is another thing that enters into this passage.

S.G. Are these promises calculated to make us restful and stabilise us in the presence of the apostate conditions around?

J.T. So many things are coming in to darken the minds of the young, who are apt to trust the mind, which in a sense is right, but we should not forget the soul, which is the feeling part of man's being. We are composed of spirit, soul and body; the soul is most important, especially in the case of young people, because there is that which holds them feelingly. That which holds us thus includes the fellowship, we are to be held by the doctrine, of course, but by the fellowship too, the fellowship of brethren.

J.W. Would Isaac be an example in this? In Genesis 26 his servants come, and tell him concerning the well that they had dug, and he called it Shebah, and it adds, "therefore the name of the city is Beer-sheba to this day". Is he following Abraham in this?

J.T. The idea set out in the father continued in the son, the latter continuing in the truth which his father had. The wells had been stopped by the Philistines after the death of Abraham, but they are unstopped by Isaac, and he goes on in this until it becomes a broad position -- Rehoboth; he can stay there, and he does not need to move again. It shows that stabilisation is in the power of the Spirit, and it goes with what we have been saying as to the soul of the believer. The Spirit being in him would operate in relation to his feelings and affections. The danger is referred to in the early part of Hebrews 6, "Wherefore, leaving the word of the beginning of the Christ, let us go on to what belongs to full growth ... For it is impossible to renew again to repentance those once enlightened, and who have tasted of the heavenly gift, and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God, and the works of power of the age to come, and have fallen away". It seems to me a most solemn thing, and it should be noted how near we might be to this very thing. The apostasy is developing so rapidly and we may even ourselves have part in it, hence the need of being held by the anchor, that is, what the promises make available to us.

J.G. Did king Saul fall away because he lacked the soul feelings of which you have spoken? He seemed to be void of right feelings at the outset, and was not ready to hearken. You were stressing the importance of hearkening.

J.T. Quite. The report did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard.

A.M-d. On the other hand God tried Abraham. He could trust His own work. Would that be seen in Genesis 22?

J.T. A very good point. God, as we see, trusting His own work and we ought to be able to trust the work of God. So that we are capable of going through things such as the brethren in this country have been capable of going through in all the pressure of the last few years.

R.M. God tests Abraham and he comes up to the test. As a result of that God adds something to him.

J.T. Quite so.

A.H. Does the end of the previous chapter in any way support what you are suggesting? It says that "solid food belongs to full-grown men, who, on account of habit have their senses exercised for distinguishing both good and evil".

J.T. That is exactly what I was thinking. In verse 12 of the previous chapter it says, "For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have again need that one should teach you what are the elements of the beginning of the oracles of God, and are become such as have need of milk, and not of solid food". What is in mind in reading this chapter is that we might go on to full growth, and that would be in keeping with what is said at the end of the chapter, of "the hope set before us, which we have as an anchor of the soul ... and entering into that within the veil". That means that the soul is steady, and able to take hold of things; able to lay hold on the hope set before us which we have as an anchor "entering into that within the veil, where Jesus is entered as forerunner for us, become for ever a high priest according to the order of Melchisedec". So that the end is seen to be attainable and near.

G.E. Is Abraham to be regarded in Genesis 22 as having reached full growth? Was God able to renew the promise, and the blessing to him because of his obedience? It seemed to provide Jehovah with a new motive to renew the matter with him.

J.T. Is He able to trust His own work? God had discovered that He could do so. He says, "Because thou hast done this". The angel says in verse 12, "For now I know that thou fearest God, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son, from me". It must be a great triumph for God when He takes up persons like ourselves, and tests us, to see what there is of Himself with us. It is in keeping with God's ways. It was so at the beginning when He brought the animals to Adam to see what he would call them. God intended to test His great creature in this way. And so here He tests Abraham in this remarkable performance and says, "For now I know that thou fearest God, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son, from me". God tests out His work to prove it.

T.G. Would these promises, to which you have been referring, be in line with what Peter says in his epistle: God "has given to us the greatest and precious promises"?

J.T. It is a remarkable reference, that. Through these, it says, "ye may become partakers of the divine nature". Then we have the idea of one thing working out another thing, as you will see if you look into the passage. There is therefore, the need of adding things. God is stressing the idea of the subjective side with us, the Spirit of God having come down. He is concerned that the truth of the incoming of the Spirit might stand out and that we might reach the end, that is, reach on to the coming of the Lord. So here in Hebrews 6 it is the state of

the soul that is in mind and is described, so as to lead on to the thought of the anchor of the soul, that we might be held and go on to the end.

A.C.S.P. Would you say a little as to the place faith has in this matter of the soul being anchored and the place the Holy Spirit has?

J.T. As we have remarked, the chapter contemplates faith and the work of God. Abraham was tested and was proved to be genuine and hence he goes on in the testimony of God. He is pursued in his history from one point to another and thus proceeds in the testimony, and in this chapter, whilst faith is in mind, yet the Holy Spirit is in mind too, as it says in the fourth verse, "it is impossible to renew again to repentance those once enlightened, and who have tasted of the heavenly gift, and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God, and the works of power of the age to come, and have fallen away". It is a terrible thought that, in spite of all this that is said, one may fall away and prove to be unreal. It is a most solemn consideration. It is thought well to bring this all in now especially for the young people. How near the idea of apostasy is to us and how we may slip into it and become lost! That is what is in mind. There is no such thing as recovery in Hebrews, which makes it very solemn if we are not going on.

F.R.S. You spoke about soul history. God says later in the epistle, "If he draw back, my soul does not take pleasure in him". Young people should have soul history. Is that what is in your mind?

J.T. The saving of the soul is referred to, and the soul is mentioned there in Hebrews 10, showing that it is a soul matter. These matters are within the range of certainty and consciousness, and are not

simply viewed from the standpoint of the work of God, but there is the Spirit's work too.

F.B. Is Judas an example of this? He was with the Lord and the disciples all along and yet in the end proved to be unreal.

J.T. Quite so. He had been with the Lord and had partaken of the apostleship with all its attendant grace and privileges and yet the Lord has to say, "Have not I chosen you the twelve? and of you one is a devil" -- an awful thing to contemplate. It says of him, that transgressing he fell to go to his own place.

A.H. The allusion in verse 6 to the ground which drinks the rain which comes often upon it producing useful herbs, would remind us that it is not only a question of sitting under the ministry, but what is going to be produced by it.

J.T. Quite so. It is important that we should have a sense in our souls of the perfection of Christ. Abraham experienced this typically as Melchisedec came to meet him, and he was thus enabled to overcome the world. It shows how God is concerned about us, for Melchisedec came just at the right time. We are told here in Hebrews 7 who he was, and John has this in mind in his gospel, as he brings the Lord before us as a divine Person. So we have in John that which gives us assurance as He says, "No one shall seize them out of my hand". In this way Abraham had the service of Melchisedec, and it is most important and urgent that young people should be on their guard as to the apostasy which is all around us, and we are in danger of slipping into it. There is on this account great need that we should judge ourselves. So it says here in verse 6, "And have fallen away, crucifying for themselves as they do the Son of God, and making a show of him. For ground which drinks the rain which comes often upon it, and produces useful herbs for those

for whose sakes also it is tilled, partakes of blessing from God; but bringing forth thorns and briars, it is found worthless and nigh to a curse, whose end is to be burned". So that we have to look into ourselves, not to belittle the word that we have believed, but to see whether there is evidence of the work of God in each of our souls; the feelings proper to the work of God.

C.H. We do well to note and imitate the faith of those in whom faith is substantial. In Genesis 22 Isaac raises questions with Abraham. Do you think we might view them in that sense as an old and a young brother journeying together?

J.T. Isaac is called a lad and Abraham is quite an old man. One has often noticed that the Lord encourages us to help the young people to keep with the older brethren and not to company by themselves. They thus see tile idea of faith illustrated before their eyes.

F.B. Is the same idea set out in Elijah and Elisha, the old and young journeying together?

J.T. Quite so. How Elisha learned from his master, as he calls Elijah.

Jno.G. Would Lot, while not representing one permanently lost, show how we might be somewhat on the line of apostasy?

J.T. Indeed. There is a peculiar expression in 1 Peter 4:18, "And if the righteous is difficultly saved, where shall the impious and the sinner appear?" The righteous difficultly saved would be Lot. He was saved because he had a righteous soul. It is good that this much is recorded of him. It says of him, "For the righteous man through seeing and hearing, dwelling among them, tormented his righteous soul day after day with their lawless works". It is noteworthy that the word soul is used.

Ques. In the second book of Psalms the writer has a good deal to say about the soul. There are

several references to it such as, "Our soul is bowed down to the dust", Psalm 44:25. Is the answer to all the soul desires summed up in the King in Psalm 45?

J.T. Just so. Those psalms are in the second book, and in that book the people are seen as in hard circumstances, as Lot was. The people had been driven out of Jerusalem, but the countenance of Jehovah is referred to as well as their own countenance. All the desires culminate in the King in Psalm 45, as you say, and indeed, in the queen too, for both must be taken account of if we are to deal with these matters. Young people particularly should take account of the queen as well, for it opens up much as to the feminine side and this must be taken account of if the souls of the young are to be held.

A.M-d. Would salvation as mentioned in verse 9 come in there? "But we are persuaded concerning you, beloved, better things, and connected with salvation".

J.T. Very good. And that is what we ought to go on to now. "For ground ... bringing forth thorns and briars, it is found worthless and nigh to a curse, whose end is to be burned. But we are persuaded concerning you, beloved, better things, and connected with salvation, even if we speak thus". The Spirit of Christ is thus seen appealing to them. So the writer of the epistle, as imbued with the Spirit of Christ, was a witness in earlier days of their faithfulness and suffering, and he goes on to say, "For God is not unrighteous to forget your work, and the love which ye have shown to His name, having ministered to the saints, and still ministering. But we desire earnestly that each one of you show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end; that ye be not sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience

have been inheritors of the promises", Hebrews 6:10 - 12. All that confirms what we have been saying as to the importance of the younger people being with the elder ones, for that is the point which he makes here when he refers to their being imitators of those who through faith and patience have been inheritors of the promises.

F.B. How far does the thought of salvation in verse 9 go?

J.T. Well, I would refer back to the beginning of the epistle where you have in chapter 2 verse 3, the great salvation referred to and that is what the Hebrews had presented to them. Although the word great is not used here in chapter 6, yet I think that the writer would mean that. In chapter 2 it says, "How shall we escape if we have been negligent of so great salvation". The danger of apostasy is in mind and the fact that young people may slip into it. We need therefore to guard ourselves and to look into ourselves to discern evidences of the work of God. We are not, of course, to be unduly introspective, but it is nevertheless quite right that we should look in and be able to call upon all that is within us to praise His name.

G.E. Is it a question of normal growth, the normal development of the work of God; and would the blind man in John 9 be an example of it?

J.T. Quite so. That is a good point to bring up. The disciples ask, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents ... ? Jesus answered, Neither has this man sinned nor his parents, but that the works of God should be manifested in him". It is a question of the work of God; really the works of God, the plural being used would stress the importance of the matter.

G.E. The blind man at the outset says, "A man called Jesus" but ends with the knowledge of the Son of God.

J.T. He says to the neighbours who enquired as to what happened when he got his eyes opened, "Having gone and washed, I saw", but when they bring him to the Pharisees he says, "I washed and I see". The first is a question of what is historical; the man states simply the effect of certain things happening and he saw, but when dealing with the Pharisees that is, persons who would challenge things and criticise, it is a question of some present evidence of the work of God and the man says, "I see".

C.H. The blind man says, "One thing I know".

J.T. He is a very good witness of the truth of the development of the work of God in John's gospel, where it is a question of life. The Lord says to him, after these things had happened, "Dost thou believe on the Son of God?" The man says, "And who is he, Lord, that I may believe on him?" as much as to say, If I only knew Him I would believe on Him at once. Then Jesus said to him, "Thou hast both seen him, and he that speaks with thee is he. And he said, I believe, Lord: and he did him homage". That is what we get in John, and it is the point in Hebrews also; namely, evidence of the work of God.

T.G. It says of the saints in Hebrews 6, "For God is not unrighteous to forget your work, and the love which ye have shown to his name, having ministered to the saints, and still ministering". They were going on in that way.

J.T. Yes. It was still an existing thing, as they were going on with God. It would mark those who are genuine.

H.B. Does that link up with the seventh verse, the product of the ground that drinks the rain being for those for whom it is tilled? Does that refer to the saints or to divine Persons?

J.T. It is for those to whom the ground belongs; it partakes of blessing from God. There is someone caring for the ground and he gets his reward, but in truth it is God. He gets His part.

J.M. Would the book of remembrance referred to in the prophet Malachi be like this?

J.T. Quite so. They were genuine persons and Jehovah elevates them to the dignity of sons: "And they shall be unto me a peculiar treasure, saith Jehovah of hosts, in the day that I prepare; and I will spare them as a man spareth his own son that serveth him".

Ques. Peter speaks of the proving of your faith which is much more precious than gold which perishes, and then he goes on to say, "Receiving the end of your faith, the salvation of your souls". Is that in line with what is here in Hebrews?

J.T. It would be. It is the end of your faith, meaning the end morally; that in which it culminates. We have a somewhat similar thought in Romans 6, "and the end, eternal life".

S.R. Would the promises in 2 Corinthians 6 be encouraging to the young? The Lord says, "I will be to you for a Father, and ye shall be to me for sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty".

J.T. Quite so. It is one of God's exceeding great and precious promises, hence the need for cleansing ourselves, as it says, "Having therefore these promises, beloved, let us purify ourselves from every pollution of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in God's fear".

S.B. All this of which you have been speaking as to the soul is seen in those who are going on with God. In Psalm 86 there is the word, "Incline thine ear, Jehovah, answer me; for I am afflicted and needy. Keep my soul, for I am godly; O thou my God, save thy servant who confideth in thee". Then

further down, "Rejoice the soul of thy servant for unto thee, Lord, do I lift up my soul".

J.T. We get many such illustrations in the Psalms of the truth of what we have been saying; it is the book of experience.

J.C.T. Is there an encouraging word as to all this in Hebrews 11 where Abraham is referred to as having dwelt in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise? Isaac would have been quite a young man.

J.T. Quite so. Heirs with him. They were with Abraham, the man of faith; that is the point.

C.D. If we keep near to those who are going on in the way Abraham was, we shall increase in enjoying heavenly things. Lot got astray because he left Abraham.

J.T. He detached himself from his uncle, but he would have been safe if he had kept with him.

A.B. Was he deceived by material prosperity?

J.T. Quite so; the well-watered plains of Jordan appealed to him.

J.W. The children of Israel said in the song in Exodus 15, "This is my God, and I will glorify him, My Father's God, and I will extol him". They began with this thought of old and young.

J.T. Abraham himself is set before us as an example and we have to look at his history. God says of him, "Shall I hide from Abraham what I am doing ... ? For I know him that he will command his children and his household after him". God honours him in the fact that he proves his genuineness, not only for himself, but for his children as well. The children need to be cared for.

A.H. God is looking for persons that He can bring forward as inheritors of the promises, so that the generation coming may be affected.

J.T. One generation goes and another comes, but generation after generation is preserved, having in

view the maintenance of the testimony. The service of the Holy Spirit proceeds in bringing the fruit out of the ground so that in result the testimony continues until the end.

F.B. In verse 11 it says, "But we desire earnestly that each one of you show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end".

R.M. The soul here seems to be set in contrast to what is external and shallow.

J.T. That is what is meant. The closing verses of the chapter show the substantial and practical side of the matter. It says, "For men indeed swear by a greater, and with them the oath is a term to all dispute, as making matters sure. Wherein God, willing to show more abundantly to the heirs of the promise the unchangeableness of his purpose, intervened by an oath, that by two unchangeable things, in which it was impossible that God should lie, we might have a strong encouragement, who have fled for refuge to lay hold on the hope set before us, which we have as anchor of the soul, both secure and firm, and entering into that within the veil, where Jesus is entered as forerunner for us, become for ever a high priest according to the order of Melchisedec", Hebrews 6:16 - 20. The reference is to the Jewish position, the city of refuge being opened to them. It would seem that the passage is intended to establish each one of us in the certainty of Christianity.

Rem. In verse 17 the promise and the purposes are both referred to.

J.T. It is to show what God has in the promise; and then there is the oath, God intervening by an oath, in order that the heirs of the promise might be assured as to it, and of the unchangeableness of His purpose.

G.E. It is important that there should be balance in the matter.

J.T. Quite so. And this passage is intended to give that. Abraham is a type of the believer, and we have here how God assured him of things in the oath and in the promise, so that the soul of the believer is to have an anchor. It is a remarkable type that is employed, but the idea is that we are to be made sure and certain; which hope "we have as anchor of the soul, both secure and firm, and entering into that within the veil".

A.H. Would you say a word as to what is involved in the expression, "within the veil"?

J.T. It involves our going inside into the presence of God. In Psalm 73 Asaph is set right and confirmed in his faith as he went into the sanctuaries of God. He had been discouraged because of the ungodly, but then he enters into the sanctuaries of God (it is the plural) then he says, that he understood their end. He is assured there. Then we have other psalms of Asaph so beautifully setting out what is there in regard to David and others. Asaph in that sense is a prophet as well as a singer and a psalmist. So, as within the veil, as in chapter 10, we are in the presence of God, where everything is assured to us. God Himself is there.

C.H. In the sanctuary things are better understood.

J.T. Quite so, as Asaph says, "Then understood I their end".

Rem. In Psalm 77 God's way is said to be "in the sanctuary".

J.T. That shows that you get illuminated there. In the case of ordinary exercises you may perhaps be doubtful, but in the sanctuary you are in the presence of God and all is clear there.

J.C.T. Does the Lord's supper greatly strengthen us in regard to being assured? I was thinking particularly of the cup.

J.T. Quite so.

A.H. Is there development here in the line of priesthood and does that help us in the service of God which would be within the veil?

J.T. We need to be assured. We get persons asking questions, which in a certain sense is right, but faith would go into the sanctuary and would get the answers there.

F.B. Is it a question of looking from the inside to the outside and of our getting God's view of any matter?

J.T. That is the thought. We read in Numbers 7, that Moses went in to speak to Jehovah, but we are told that God spoke to him.

F.B. Asaph saw things from the inside, that is from the sanctuary.

J.T. There were great communications came out through Moses, but in Numbers 7, where we get the offerings of the princes recorded, we are told at the end of the chapter that Moses went into the tent of meeting to speak to God. As going in he had the assurance that all would be well, and although he went in to speak with God, yet God spoke to him. It says, "He heard the voice speaking to him from off the mercy-seat which was upon the ark of testimony, from between the two cherubim; and he spoke to Him". The way of God in that sense is in relation to the divine communications which are made in the sanctuary.

F.B. That should result in enlargement and expansion with us.

J.T. Quite so.

THE HOLY SPIRIT'S WARNINGS AGAINST DEPARTURE

Hebrews 2:4; Hebrews 3:7 - 9; Hebrews 6:4 - 6; Hebrews 10:15 - 18

J.T. The subject of the Holy Spirit, it need not be said, is of immense importance. This epistle was written, as many of us know, to the Hebrew Christians. Their interest in the truth was waning, and they needed to have the Scriptures brought to bear upon them, especially the warnings, the warnings given by the Scriptures to us. In Hebrews 2 the writer calls attention to the distributions of the Holy Spirit. It says, "God bearing, besides, witness with them to it, both by signs and wonders, and various acts of power, and distributions of the Holy Spirit, according to his will". The allusion is to the coming of the Spirit as bringing what was needed in the service of God according to His will. The Holy Spirit is Himself a divine Person, exercising His own will, even as the Father does, and as the Son does, only He is here in holy subjection, as it is said of Him, "sent forth from heaven". The point in this passage is the distributions of the Holy Spirit. The next passage is to call attention to what He says in the use of the Old Testament, how He uses the Old Testament in the ministry to enforce the truth, and then chapter 6 is to call attention to the fact that He may be partaken of and yet the person doing so may be lost. It is said, "It is impossible to renew again to repentance those once enlightened, and who have tasted of the heavenly gift, and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God, and the works of power of the age to come, and have fallen away, crucifying for themselves as they do the Son of God, and making a show of him". Christianity is characterised by the Holy Spirit, and in such a meeting as this for

instance, He is present and many partake of Him in an outward way, and yet may fall away. Chapter 10 refers to Him as witnessing. It is said, "The Holy Spirit also bears us witness". It alludes to the testimony He renders from the Old Testament as to the forgiveness of sins. So that we have in chapter 2 a reference to the Holy Spirit and His distributions; in chapter 3, what He says in the Old Testament scriptures; in chapter 6, that He is partaken of as come from heaven, and yet persons who may have part in an outward or external way in what He ministers may fall away and be lost; and then in chapter 10, He witnesses to the great fact of the forgiveness of sins. He witnesses to it through the Scriptures, using the Scriptures in a typical sense, and that involves the typical teaching of the Holy Spirit in this chapter.

A.R. Would you say something as to the distributions of the Holy Spirit?

J.T. Well, as come down here, firstly, what the Holy Spirit did, even in the gifts, was to confirm the salvation spoken of by the Lord. He has in His distributions also furnished the assembly, the saints, with what is necessary in the ministry. Reference is made to what the Lord gives in Ephesians 4, but in 1 Corinthians 12 we have the word, "No one can say, Lord Jesus, unless in the power of the Holy Spirit. But there are distinctions of gifts, but the same Spirit". The service of the Holy Spirit is alluded to there as making "distinctions of gifts".

A.R. It says in Luke 24 that they were to wait in Jerusalem until they were "endued with power from on high", alluding, I suppose, to the gift of the Holy Spirit so that they should be able for service. Would that be part of the distribution?

J.T. Just so. They were to remain in the city until they were endued with power from on high, and then the Spirit came fifty days after the Lord

rose. They waited while He was here for forty days, and then ten more after He had ascended, as if the Lord was very deliberate in what He was doing in heaven, because He had gone up to exercise administrative power down here, and He sent down the Spirit.

Rem. So that the Spirit having come, we are told, He "sat upon each one of them". They were all assembled in one place, and there was the sound of breathing from God, powerful breathing.

J.T. The allusion is to the parted tongues: cloven tongues, as of fire, sat on each of them, pointing to the fact that each would be instrumental in the service, and then the Spirit gives them utterance, so that the saints were furnished by His presence and the service of God was carried on.

Ques. It is described as "parted tongues, as of fire". Does that involve the distribution of the Spirit?

J.T. "Parted", I suppose, implies that they would be able to carry on according to what language it might be necessary to use.

W.H. Would all this emphasise the greatness of the system that had now been established in Christ in glory?

J.T. I think that is what is in mind. The writer of the epistle to the Hebrews, who is probably Paul, calls attention first to the Person of Christ, and then to the Spirit as we have it here in the beginning of chapter 2, the Spirit acting here as a divine Person distributing what is needed in the testimony and service of the assembly.

Ques. How would that bear upon us in our local gatherings?

J.T. You mean our Bible readings, and the like. Well, I think the Spirit of God helps us in that and furnishes us. Throughout the Acts we have, I believe, practically every manner of service that the

Lord is helping us to proceed with at the present time; and so it is said, in Acts 2, "And there were added in that day about three thousand souls. And they persevered in the teaching and fellowship of the apostles, in breaking of bread and prayers". The apostles gradually, by the Lord's help, came forward with all that was needed in the service, and I believe the Lord helps the brethren to carry on accordingly. The idea of the week is contemplated in the Acts and in the Gospels as well. The first day of the week is noted and the prayer meeting too, and the reading.

H.B. It speaks in Hebrews 8 of "the true tabernacle, which the Lord has pitched, and not man". Would the help of the Holy Spirit here come in to sustain us in the way of service?

J.T. The Lord is said to be Minister of the sanctuary there, and that would all be in the power of the Spirit, because the Lord in heaven operates in the power of the Spirit. The Spirit too, operates of His own will, but He is sent here.

F.B.W. Would you say a word as to the great salvation which is spoken of, and the distribution of the Holy Spirit in relation to that?

J.T. The word "salvation" is used often. The idea of great salvation which is spoken of, would just be to stress what has already been said, and that the writer of the epistle intended to impress upon the Hebrew Christians what had been committed to them. How complete the salvation was, which at the first began to be spoken of by the Lord, but confirmed to us by those who heard Him. The word great is used, because the writer would impress on the Hebrew Christians what they had come into; what salvation the Lord had acquired at such cost for them. I suppose the opening up of things as Paul came into them would be the great salvation; it would be expounded in the epistle to the Romans, and even in other epistles.

T.T. It speaks about God bearing witness with them by distribution.

Ques. Is this one of the means by which God attests the word and confirms it, "God bearing, besides, witness with them to it, both by signs and wonders, and various acts of power, and distributions of the Holy Spirit, according to his will"?

J.T. Yes; as we have especially in Paul's ministry and Peter's ministry, and, of course, all the apostles'. I suppose each of the apostles had his own line of ministry. They would all be furnished with signs. Mark, in his closing word in his gospel, says, "The Lord therefore, after he had spoken to them, was taken up into heaven, and sat at the right hand of God. And they, going forth, preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word by the signs following upon it". That would be a brief allusion to the feature of Pentecost, and the wonderful work of God by the Spirit sent forth from heaven, and all that accompanied His coming, calling attention to the greatness of the salvation that God had brought in. And then, of course, the other thing is the ministry by the gifts, especially the prophetic ministry.

G.E. Would there be an indication of this in Acts 13, where the Spirit says, "Separate me now Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them". Is that according to His will?

J.T. Quite so. It was His own action, "Separate me", He says. The allusion is to what was going on at Antioch, and much is said in chapter 11 as to what led up to it. The service of God was inaugurated at Antioch, and we are told that Paul and Barnabas had been there for a whole year teaching in the assembly, and then there were men there at Antioch whose names are given, who were said to be ministering to the Lord and fasting. And then the Spirit says, "Separate me now Barnabas and Saul

for the work to which I have called them". Following that, the saints "having laid their hands on them ... let them go. They therefore, having been sent forth by the Holy Spirit". The apostles did not send them forth. Modern missionary work is hardly according to what we have there. The Spirit sent them forth; the saints laid their hands on them. The assembly did not send them forth. It is never said to have sent them forth. The Spirit sent them forth, and they went out to the work. Acts 13 and 14 report what happened in the first great missionary enterprise of Barnabas and Saul. Having fulfilled the work "they sailed away to Antioch, whence they had been committed to the grace of God for the work which they had fulfilled".

A.R. It was the direct action of the Holy Spirit in that chapter, indicating that the Spirit acts according as He will.

J.T. Well, that is what I was thinking. The Spirit Himself did it, and sent them forth. The saints were with Him in it and He recognised them in it. In all the journeying of the two apostles there would be much prayer for them, and of course, divine support in it would also be furnished, but all that is in keeping with what is presented in the Scriptures.

F.M. Do you think we still carry that on today?

J.T. The question is whether modern missionary work is according to the principles of Scripture, and whether the East, so much in mind in this kind of work, has not been reserved by the Lord for a further great work through the preaching of the everlasting gospel, the pre-millennial service shortly to commence. There has been little real result in the East, as compared with the West, from the work carried on there over the past three hundred years. There is nothing at all to be compared with what we get in the Acts.

Ques. Do you mean that in the Acts the trend of the work of God was westward?

J.T. Quite so, and it has remained so. The persons who are really in true Christian fellowship in the light of the assembly in the whole of Asia are few in number.

Rem. It is very striking that they sought to go to Bithynia, but the Spirit suffered them not.

J.T. Well, that is a good scripture to bring up now, showing how the Spirit of God is controlling things.

Rem. The situation of Bithynia in Asia Minor was northward from the apostles' position at the time.

J.T. Whereas the Spirit's mind was that they should go to the West, because the man in Macedonia was towards the West.

Rem. It was Europe that was in mind.

J.T. Quite so.

Ques. Why does it speak of the "Spirit of Jesus" there? It says, "they attempted to go to Bithynia and the Spirit of Jesus did not allow them".

J.T. The Lord's personality as a Man, is in mind. He says to Paul, "I am Jesus whom thou persecutest". We are told, "we see Jesus ... crowned with glory and honour", which is hardly a Jewish reference. It is more in keeping with what we have in the gospel. The next scripture we read in Hebrews is to call attention to what use the Spirit makes of the Old Testament scriptures. It is said, "wherefore, even as says the Holy Spirit, To-day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts". The allusion is to Psalm 95, showing how the Holy Spirit uses the Old Testament in the ministry of the New Testament, the ministry of the present time. We understand that the Old Testament has its place, but the New Testament, in fact the apostles themselves, have the first place in the whole matter we are dealing with, and, to be more specific, Paul has

first place, because to him was committed the ministry of the assembly and the completion of the word of God. So it is clear that we ought to consult him in all matters that he deals with, and not make any Old Testament scripture of prior importance over Paul. The Lord said he is "an elect vessel to me".

H.B. It says, "Wherefore, even as says the Holy Spirit, To-day if ye will hear his voice". Does that bring in Paul?

J.T. Well, he is doubtless the writer here, but it is the Spirit's voice we are considering. The Spirit uses Psalm 95 in the ministry. The word says means that.

W.H. So that the first scripture you refer to would suggest the endowment of the Holy Spirit in the way of gift and ability, do you think? And alongside of that you have the Holy Scriptures at the Spirit's command to further the service of God.

J.T. Yes. The Lord cites Moses Himself, and puts the writings of Moses on a level with His own words, you might say, in John 5. At the same time, when the Spirit of God came and conversions began, the converts were not directed to read Moses, nor David, nor the Psalms, but it is said that "they persevered in the teaching and fellowship of the apostles", so that the apostles have priority in all matters.

A.R. In regard to the Spirit speaking through the Scriptures, would you suggest that He only speaks through the Scriptures, or might He use another channel?

J.T. Well, of course, He speaks directly. He said, "Separate me now Barnabas and Saul". He spoke there.

A.R. But I was wondering whether we might experience such a thing today, the Spirit speaking directly as He did then.

J.T. Well, He is here still, as much as He was then. He is here, and we hope, at least we would expect, something like that even now, some word from the Spirit.

H.B. "He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies".

J.T. Quite so.

A.R. But would speaking through one and another in the assembly correspond? In Acts He spoke directly.

J.T. But even then He would speak through someone, because the Spirit did not become incarnate like the Lord Jesus, who became incarnate and spoke directly personally. The Spirit did not become incarnate; therefore, He would speak through vessels.

Rem. He would speak through those who were ministering to the Lord and fasting. They apparently were the vessels the Lord was using.

J.T. The Spirit did not become incarnate. There is a great distinction to be noted in that sense, between the Lord Jesus and the Holy Spirit. The Lord Jesus alone became incarnate, and through Him all the communications are made, so that He is called "the Word". He is called "the Word" because through Him the speaking is done.

H.K.R. Would His voice be heard through ministry?

J.T. Quite so. Hence the great importance of being ready, and in a state of soul suitable for His use. Those who read the Scriptures, of course, would perhaps be ready in a peculiar way, and their minds would be free from worldly influences. John speaks of being "in the Spirit on the Lord's day". It is a question of how much of that there may be now.

F.I. In speaking of those who persevered in the apostles' doctrine, you did not mean to separate

that from what the Lord said to them in Luke's gospel, when He opened their understanding in relation to Moses and the prophets and Psalms.

J.T. Of course, they were all subject to the Lord's service in opening their understanding. That included them all.

F.I. The doctrine you spoke of as the apostles' doctrine would be based upon that.

J.T. It would. The Lord would be the Author of it, but the allusion is to the economy that had been set up in the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit had come down from heaven, to dwell with the saints and be in them. The Lord had gone up. The Spirit remains with us, and that is one of the features of the dispensation, that He still remains with us, but there was constant unfolding until the completion of the word of God. There is no addition now to the word of God. Paul said he completed it but at the same time the Spirit is still here, and would minister through those whom He would use, but they would be limited to the word of God.

Ques. Would the teaching of the apostle Paul be included in the apostles' doctrine in Acts 2?

J.T. Speaking broadly, it would include all the apostles, but I think that the twelve are primarily in mind.

Rem. The light of Christ as Head in heaven and the assembly on earth, would be additional to what is seen in Acts 2.

J.T. Well, it took years to develop the whole system of doctrine. It was years after that Paul himself was introduced, and that has to be noted. He unfolded the truth, but it is said that the Holy Spirit would guide them into all the truth. That was in mind, and all implies the completion of the word of God -- all the truth.

G.B. Even when the Old Testament is referred to would what the apostle Paul gives us be final?

J.T. That is what I was saying. Final is the word, because it was given to him to complete the word of God. And then he had the doctrine, the ministry of the assembly and the ministry of reconciliation. It is very important for brethren to bear in mind that the apostles had their place.

H.K.R. In chapter 2 we get the great salvation spoken of by our Lord. Here it says that the Spirit says, and the quotation you refer to is from Psalm 95.

J.T. The Spirit of God is here to witness and to unfold the truth; but at first it was spoken of by the Lord, and then in turn by those who heard Him: that would be the apostles. Now chapter 3, as we have already remarked, contemplates the use the Spirit makes of the Old Testament, and then chapter 6 contemplates that the Spirit may be in the company of persons who are regarded as participating in Him. The verses read speak of them as partakers of the Holy Spirit, and yet falling away. This is one of the most solemn things, and it is well that it should be pointed out. How solemn it is that we should have part in the things we are now speaking of, and yet be lost! The apostle says that it is impossible to renew them again to repentance.

W.R. Does it mean a person coming into the sphere where the Spirit is operating and getting light?

J.T. Yes, many have also taken on things. Judas undoubtedly carried on with the other apostles, the eleven, and did work similar to them, perhaps was used, and yet we know he was lost.

A.R. Would there be a difference between partaking of the Holy Spirit here, and being indwelt by the Holy Spirit?

J.T. A very great difference, and one that ought to be observed. One who is actually indwelt or

sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise shall never be lost, cannot be lost. The Lord says, "They shall never perish".

A.R. I suppose Paul is showing the danger of their being in the profession, and not in the reality of things.

J.T. Well, it says, "Thou seest, brother, how many myriads there are of the Jews who have believed" (Acts 21:20); and again, "a great crowd of the priests obeyed the faith", Acts 6:7. We cannot be sure that they were all saved.

W.H. Does John allude to that, when he says, "They went out from among us, but they were not of us", and he calls them 'antichrists'. They are not simply quiescent, but they are definitely apostate; "they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame".

J.T. These are most solemn things to be spoken of. The persons referred to come under the influence of the truth and fall away, as it says here.

Ques. Your remark refers particularly to the Jewish nation. Would you say, that there is any application of this to some of the European nations?

J.T. Well, I would think Mohammedanism would suggest it; the whole of Asia Minor and North Africa were carried away into apostasy. Presently, we are told in Thessalonians, that God will send a strong delusion and men shall believe a lie, that they all might be condemned. We are coming to this terrible thing, that they all might be condemned, because they received not the love of the truth.

A.R. You suggest then that these become apostate that are spoken of here?

J.T. I think that is what is meant. John names them. Even now there are many antichrists.

Rem. The work of God in the soul would be a necessity, to have the love of the truth.

J.T. Well, it would be a real work of God to receive the truth; in fact, one would have to be born again. The Lord says, "Except any one be born anew he cannot see the kingdom of God ... Except any one be born of water and of Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God"; first he cannot see, and then secondly he cannot enter the kingdom of God. These are all most solemn matters, and, of course that is what is in mind to call attention to, that we should be real, and sure of our salvation; "to make your calling and election sure", as Peter says; sure to ourselves.

R.McA. Does the Spirit bring in a similar warning in 1 Timothy, in saying, "But the Spirit speaks expressly, that in latter times some shall apostatise from the faith" (1 Timothy 4:1). Later on Paul says, "Laying these things before the brethren, thou wilt be a good minister of Christ Jesus, nourished with the words of the faith and of the good teaching which thou hast fully followed up" (1 Timothy 4:6).

J.T. Yes. Paul uses the word expressly there; "in latter times some shall apostatise from the faith"; that is an allusion to Romish doctrines.

W.R. Jude speaks of "The Lord, having saved a people out of the land of Egypt, in the second place destroyed those who had not believed".

J.T. Paul, writing the second epistle to Timothy, speaks of this matter of apostasy. It is now at our doors.

H.B. It is a good thing to be amongst the saints, but we want to challenge our hearts as to our reality in divine things.

J.T. Yes, as has been remarked, making our calling and election sure. It is not only the light, but the work of God in the soul.

G.L. Would verses 11 and 12 of chapter 6 give us the contrast?

J.T. That is what I mean. It is well to have that before us, what the real thing is. "But we desire earnestly that each one of you show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end; that ye be not sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience have been inheritors of the promises". This is the positive side.

W.B. What is the force of the expression, "crucifying ... the Son of God"?

J.T. Well, I suppose it is to show that apostasy involves the entire renunciation of Christianity from its foundation, and those guilty of this took on the guilt attaching to Israel in regard of the death of the Son of God. Apostasy in effect made this their own act. The thing would be to nullify the testimony of the Lord Jesus. That is, of course, the great trend now in the anti-Christian teaching.

G.E. Would the reference to Simon Magus in Acts 8 help in this matter?

J.T. "A certain man, by name Simon, had been before in the city, using magic arts, and astonishing the nation of Samaria, saying that himself was some great one ... But Simon, having seen that by the laying on of the hands of the apostles the Holy Spirit was given, offered them money, saying, Give to me also this power ... . And Peter said to him, Thy money go with thee to destruction, ... Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter". Whether he was converted or not, it does not state, but anyway there seems a link in the terrible situation that arose. He was already among those who believed professedly.

H.K.R. We are told, that "Simon also himself believed; and having been baptised, continued constantly with Philip; and beholding the signs and great works of power which took place, was astonished". Would that suggest that he had outwardly professed, but his heart was not affected?

J.T. He is not classified with the apostate as in Hebrews 6, and the Spirit would distinguish him. Although we cannot say very much, because it is left at that, yet he asked them to "Supplicate ye for me to the Lord". It is left at that.

W.H. Does it suggest in Hebrews 6, that if we are not moving on we are in danger of going back into apostasy? It says, "let us go on to what belongs to full growth".

J.T. Just so, but as to those receiving this epistle then, they did have the real thing of which we read in that chapter. Verse 9 reads, "But we are persuaded concerning you, beloved, better things, and connected with salvation, even if we speak thus. For God is not unrighteous to forget your work, and the love which ye have shewn to his name, having ministered to the saints, and still ministering. But we desire earnestly that each one of you show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end; that ye be not sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience have been inheritors of the promises". No doubt we are in what the apostle stresses as to the real thing.

I think we should go on to chapter 10, to see how witness is attached, or comes in, in the teaching; the idea of the witness of the Holy Spirit. The passage reads, "and the Holy Spirit also bears us witness of it". That is not what He is saying, it is witnessing. The witness of things is a further thought. "The Holy Spirit also bears us witness of it". "This is the covenant which I will establish towards them after those days, saith the Lord, giving my laws into their hearts, I will write them also in their understandings; and their sins and their lawlessnesses I will never remember any more. But where there is remission of these, there is no longer a sacrifice for sin". The point is, that the Spirit is witnessing, not simply saying things which are in the Old Testament,

but witnessing about the new covenant, which involves forgiveness of sins. The new covenant provides that God will never remember their sins any more.

W.H. Is this witness a subjective feature in the soul?

J.T. I think it would be over against what Peter says of one who has "forgotten the purging of his former sins". Such a one is in great danger, but one who has this witness of the Holy Spirit is certain that God will never remember his sins any more. It says, "Giving my laws into their hearts, I will write them also in their understandings ... their sins and their lawlessnesses I will never remember any more". That is the witness, as if the Spirit of God clothed Himself with the power of testimony, testifying to our souls that God will never remember our sins any more.

F.B.W. Is the witness to give us assurance in view of the ministry that is following on this, so that we may be able to go on to further ministry?

J.T. Quite so. It is a foundational thought and what a relief it is if any one is doubting if he is forgiven. Who can be a greater witness than the Holy Spirit, going to the length of quoting the Old Testament, to afford all the authority of it! That is involved in what we get in John 5:45, about Moses; "Think not that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one who accuses you, Moses, on whom ye trust; for if ye had believed Moses, ye would have believed me, for he wrote of me". That is remarkable. The authority of Moses is spoken of by the Lord.

A.R. It says, later, "we are not of them who draw back". So that the Spirit's witness would preserve one in assurance.

J.T. Well, that is what is meant, "we are not of them who draw back ... but of them that believe to

the saving of the soul". The use of the word soul in this epistle is to be noted, because it alludes to the feeling part, that you are not simply trusting in your mind, but you are affected feelingly.

J.H.P. In Romans 8, it says, "The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit". Is that what you have in mind as to feeling?

J.T. Not quite. The Spirit is there too as in us eternally, I would say. Here He is speaking of the types, the prophets in the Old Testament, using the prophets, especially Jeremiah, as to the new covenant. How we are assured in that remarkable way by the Spirit bringing in the Old Testament.

Rem. The witness of the Spirit in the present dispensation would be a final word.

J.T. Yes, in the sense that the Lord's word was final when He was here. The Spirit of God is in Christianity, not only in speaking things, but in making us feel things; He operates in our souls.

Rem. I was thinking of your references to the warning. In the first it is slipping away; in the second it is turning away, in the third it is falling away.

THE BASIC WORK OF GOD IN BELIEVERS

Acts 1:1 - 26

J.T. It came to my mind today that what the Lord left as He went up to heaven is basically presented in this chapter. I use the word 'basically' thinking that this chapter has to be compared with the endings of all the gospels, where the disciples are seen just as they were as the Lord was apprehended and put to death. We can easily trace the difference between Acts 1 and the endings of the gospels; and notice that much darkness and ignorance marked those whom He left on earth. This is seen in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, but this chapter records much improvement, although the Holy Spirit had not come. The Lord had gone into heaven, but the Holy Spirit had not yet come, and yet there is evidence of great improvement in the intelligence of the disciples; at the same time the thoughts presented in it are simply basic. The whole book is intended to open up the results of the Lord's death and resurrection, and the incoming of the Spirit. Acts is a gradual, but steady unfolding of the truth.

H.B. Would you explain a little what you mean by the improvement as compared with the gospels?

J.T. Well, take Luke himself. Evidently the second treatise was an afterthought, I mean from his point of view. It was no doubt designed of God that there should be the book of Acts, and if we did not have it, we would have the facts in the endings of the gospels, but we should have to build up on less complete information than the book of Acts furnishes in chapter 1. There was much darkness, as has been remarked, and confusion and uncertainty, to all of which we have to confess in our own souls, and judge. We have all to begin with new birth, and new birth in itself does not mean the

indwelling of the Spirit. Every believer has some experience such as is disclosed in the endings of the gospels; whereas the first chapter of Acts indicates a great improvement, and yet the Spirit has not yet come, showing that the work of God basically may progress of itself without the reception of the Holy Spirit.

H.B. It says, "being assembled with them". Would that show that they had developed ability to eliminate what was unsuitable to His presence?

J.T. Yes, the whole chapter indicates certain elements that the endings of the gospels do not give to us. We all do well to judge ourselves in the light of the endings of the gospels, for they contemplate those who are believers to a point, but who are very ignorant and dark and confused. What is presented in the second chapter of Acts would be in agreement with the incoming of the Spirit in the believer. There must be some work prior to this according to the way things are presented in Scripture, as Paul says to the Ephesians, "Having believed, ye have been sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise".

R.B. How do you understand the Lord charging the apostles "by the Holy Spirit", in verse 2?

J.T. Luke says that he wrote before about "all things which Jesus began both to do and to teach, until that day in which, having by the Holy Spirit charged the apostles whom he had chosen, he was taken up". It is to be understood that the Holy Spirit was there, but there in Christ and in Christ only.

F.I. In John 20, He breathed into them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit"; they received the Holy Spirit as from Himself.

J.T. Well, that is a pattern of what should happen after the Holy Spirit came from heaven because while the Lord was here He had not yet been sent down from heaven. It can only be a pattern in

John 20. It says that He breathed into the disciples, but we can hardly say that subjectively the Spirit was there, giving any character to them, because it is said afterwards, that the leading ones turned away and went fishing. What is said in John 20 is just a pattern as to what would happen when the Holy Spirit was given from heaven.

F.B.W. Are you calling attention to certain features in this chapter which are at the foundation of things in view of the Spirit's coming?

J.T. That is exactly the point in mind, that we have fundamental facts, fundamental in view of the fulness or completeness. The succeeding chapters would refer to the work of the Spirit in the saints, as in them; the Spirit Himself in them. All the instruction that flowed out to them, and the spiritual ornamentation, involved the formation of the assembly as such, and the formation of each believer. All that is in mind in the succeeding chapters, beginning with chapter 2, but chapter 1 is just basic; that is to say, without speaking of the Spirit Himself as coming in from heaven, and the formation that He would bring about in them.

W.H. This would seem to be a certain service on the Lord's part, do you mean, prior to the coming of the Spirit? It says "he presented himself living" and then "being seen by them during forty days", and then He was "speaking of the things which concern the kingdom of God", and then His ascension. Would all these elements enter into what is basic?

J.T. Quite so, to make them suitable for the great thought God had in mind. And so chapter 2 begins with the fact that the Spirit came as the saints were assembled in the house, "and there appeared to them parted tongues, as of fire, and it sat upon each one of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other

tongues as the Spirit gave to them to speak forth". And so the passage runs on to verse 14, which says, "But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice and spoke forth to them, Men of Judaea, and all ye inhabitants of Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and give heed to my words; for these are not full of wine, as ye suppose, for it is the third hour of the day; but this is that which was spoken through the prophet Joel". That is to say, the Spirit is definitely here and acting already now as the Preacher in a gifted man, and the gospel is unfolded. And then we are told from verse 37 of chapter 2 about those who were converted; "they were pricked in heart, and said to Peter and the other apostles, What shall we do, brethren? And Peter said to them, Repent, and be baptised, each one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ, for remission of sins, and ye will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For to you is the promise and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God may call. And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, Be saved from this perverse generation. Those then who had accepted his word were baptised; and there were added in that day about three thousand souls. And they persevered in the teaching and fellowship of the apostles, in breaking of bread and prayers". From this verse to the end, we have the description of those who were there in Jerusalem, including the converts, and there were three thousand of them. So that we have in this chapter 2 what involves Christianity, whereas chapter 1 is bare material for building up the great structure of Christianity; the bare material, but largely built on what is in the endings of the gospels.

A.R. Would you say that chapter 1 might be an example of the way the Lord was teaching them Himself, and shows the improvement with them as

the result of the Lord's own teaching, before the Spirit came?

J.T. Just so; during the fifty days. These days would imply what has been already intimated, that the work of God in itself, that is, new birth in itself, effects something, though not full Christianity, but it effects something that is remarkable and is basic.

Ques. Would this section of the book of Acts show that one feature that has basically been built into the souls of persons is obedience, and is that primarily one of the things that is necessary for the reception of the Holy Spirit? It says that God gives the Holy Spirit to those that obey Him. They were charged by the Holy Spirit to remain in the city until they were endued with power, and the chapter shows that they were obedient to that charge.

J.T. Well, that is true. There were many other things, of course, but we have to treat them all as a whole, so that we might see what the work of God really is by itself, before the Holy Spirit comes in to effect all, for it is the Spirit of God that guides us into all the truth.

A.M. Is this a kind of completion of the great vessel that is about to be filled, considering the vessel by itself; not just the persons that constitute it, but the vessel itself, as the Lord's own handiwork?

J.T. Yes, if you mean by the vessel, that the assembly was there, what you say is quite correct and important. It was only there in prospect, because it could not be formed, except by the Spirit.

A.M. I was thinking of the words, for instance, "with one accord" and then the "crowd of names". Does it not suggest the thought of the vessel prepared to receive the Spirit?

J.T. Well, the material is there, but the actual setting up of the vessel, the formation of the vessel

was by the Holy Spirit. The saints are not to be viewed in the assembly, save as by the Holy Spirit. We are baptised into one body, "for also in the power of one Spirit we have all been baptised into one body", 1 Corinthians 12:13.

-.P. Would Peter himself be an example of this, the product of the gospel and the work of God?

J.T. Quite so. Some of us were noticing this morning that Peter is called Simon in Luke, it is said that the Lord appeared to him. "The Lord is indeed risen and has appeared to Simon", but when Paul mentions him, as appeared to by the Lord, he is called Cephas, which is his assembly name, the name by which he is to be known as assembly material, as of the assembly, and that is something that bears on all of us. As we sit down together, we come in responsively, in view of the assembly, in view of our partaking of the Lord's supper and all that follows upon it. We are in the light of the assembly. We already have the Spirit, and we are able to act assembly-wise. We are, therefore, enabled to act as if we were Cephas, and that is how Paul relates the matter. The Lord appeared to Cephas, meaning that He appeared to him in his assembly relation. This chapter hardly opens that up for us, although of course, he is Cephas, and he is moving in the light of his name too.

A.S. Would this chapter have any correspondence with the "unformed substance" spoken of in Psalm 139?

J.T. Yes. That is a psalm that should be looked into in relation to the assembly as it prophetically alludes to it, though it would be purely abstract. If we regard ourselves in relation to the assembly in that sense, it would be purely abstract, and so this chapter is abstract. It deals with the basic substance

or facts as to the material out of which the assembly was formed.

F.B.W. Would you open up what you have in mind in calling attention to what is basic in this chapter?

J.T. Just that we might note the material from which we have sprung as in the assembly.

A.R. It says, the number of names together was about one hundred and twenty. Would each of the names suggest what is basic?

J.T. And more than that. There would be the administrative thought -- ten times twelve. Undoubtedly the number helps us in this respect, and it enters into this chapter with the idea of responsibility attached to each of them. But the fact that they had names, and the word crowd is used, meaning that they were not specially ordered, indicates that there was something there by which they are to be designated. As the Spirit came, each one of them would have a name.

H.B. I was thinking of Cornelius, he had not the Spirit, and there was something particular with him.

J.T. Yes. He was able to build up a memorial in heaven, and that would establish what has been said that the work of God is something in itself, and effects something before the Holy Spirit comes.

G.D. Is it seen in the beginning of Acts 19, where Paul arrives at Ephesus and finds certain disciples, then he raises the question, "Did ye receive the Holy Spirit when ye had believed?"

J.T. Yes, that would be something like this; Apollos too, although Apollos evidently had improved on them. He had more than those twelve men. They did not even know that the Holy Spirit was come, they said, which shows a state very like the ignorance and the darkness that is seen in the endings of the gospels. Here in Acts 1 there is more

life, but the endings of the gospels correspond very much to these twelve men that were found at Ephesus. But then Paul soon adjusted them; their ignorance was not allowed to continue. They were to be used, and he said, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when ye had believed? And they said to him, We did not even hear if the Holy Spirit was come". Then the apostle instructs them, and when they heard what Paul had to say, they were baptised, showing they were obedient to the word; but it seems that their ignorance was culpable, for they did not even know about the Spirit, and yet John the baptist himself spoke about the Holy Spirit. This is often seen in our own time, people do not know things that they should know. Paul laid his hands on them. We have in this the idea of linking on with the brethren. The thought in the laying on of the hands is that in getting the Spirit we are linked up unitedly in one body.

W.H. Would the two references to the Spirit in chapter 1 of the Acts bear on what you are saying? In verse 5 the writer speaks about being "baptised with the Holy Spirit after now not many days". Would that be preparation in view of the organism and unity; and then in verse 8, the Holy Spirit having come upon them, that the service would be taken up in the power of the Spirit?

J.T. Quite so. That is obviously anticipative, and the Lord was preparing them for it, but it had to await His ascension. He was forty days on earth before He ascended; that is another thing. Why did He not go to heaven at once? There must have been something more in His mind to effect preparatory to the reception of the Spirit. Then there were ten days more also.

-.P. Would something of this preparatory work be seen in verse 14, "These gave themselves all with one accord to continual prayer, with several

women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren"?

J.T. Yes; the work is progressing; the work of God has power to progress in itself. I mean the work of God, before the Spirit is given. Even in the Old Testament times, we have something like this, not just so full as this, but there is enough to show that the work of God is the work of God, and it must proceed until the coming in of the Spirit.

A.R. Have you something in your mind as to the additional ten days after the forty days?

J.T. Well; there must be some meaning in the mind of heaven why the Lord did not go up to heaven the day He arose. He could have gone. In fact, Luke 24 would indicate that that was the thought, as if He hasted to go up, in order to begin the great administration He had in mind, but He did not; and Luke the same writer tells us expressly in Acts that He remained forty days with them, and what He did while He was here. It is said, "concerning all things which Jesus began both to do and to teach, until that day in which, having by the Holy Spirit charged the apostles whom he had chosen, he was taken up; to whom also he presented himself living, after he had suffered, with many proofs; being seen by them during forty days, and speaking of the things which concern the kingdom of God; and being assembled with them". All this must have been in the Lord's mind as necessary preparatory work and the fact now is that such preparatory work is necessary in order to prepare us for the Spirit at the present time.

R.McK. When the Lord says in John 14, "if ye love me keep my commandments. And I will beg the Father, and he will give you another Comforter", is the Lord there taking account of something existing before the Spirit is come?

J.T. Quite so. These things are necessary, and the Lord was working in order to affect them individually, but they were very slow in learning and, of course, we all are.

H.K.R. Would the last two verses in Luke's gospel refer to the effects of the forty days that He remained with them? "And they, having done him homage, returned to Jerusalem with great joy, and were continually in the temple praising and blessing God". Does this suggest that the ignorance and darkness had in some measure been removed?

J.T. The end of Luke happily corresponds with the beginning of Acts. The Lord Jesus went up from Bethany, we are told in the end of Luke, and as we have remarked, it appears as if the Lord intended to go up that very day, but He did not. Luke is led of the Spirit to write the Acts, so that the whole matter should be clarified, and that the assembly's structural formation should be rightly understood; the gospels in themselves did not give the full thought. It reminds us of much that may be thought over and meditated upon as to what is written, and how men were to write, by the Spirit of God, what they were intended to write, and afterwards how they may have thought over it. The Lord helped Luke to write another treatise so that we have the full thought that enters into the formation of the structure of the assembly.

J.B. Does the necessity for another apostle, in view of completeness, indicate in a way that they had apprehended the reason for the extension of the ten days?

J.T. There must be the twelve, although the Lord did not tell them to provide another. That only indicates what we were saying, that they were steadily improving even before the Spirit came. The sense that the twelve should be complete arose from themselves, and so we find in verse 15, that

"Peter, standing up in the midst of the brethren, said, (the crowd of names who were together was about a hundred and twenty,) Brethren, it was necessary that the scripture should have been fulfilled which the Holy Spirit spoke before, by the mouth of David, concerning Judas". Clearly there was progress in the disciples and apostles, before the Spirit came, showing that in themselves, the work of God is capable of this even before the Spirit is received. I have thought of it several times, and I hope the brethren will not think that I am merely repeating, but I am speaking of it because I know that there is much abroad about new birth, and the idea that things take place at once, simultaneously or automatically, but they do not; the work of God must take place of itself. Of course, the Spirit's work is the work of God too, but I am speaking now of God's work sovereignly by the Spirit as over against the work of the Spirit as indwelling the believer. There is something there that progresses of itself, so that a certain state is brought about to prepare us for the Holy Spirit.

Rem. You are stressing that the Lord did not stay with them the whole fifty days.

J.T. He stayed forty days, and we can see from the facts that we have here, that He did certain things during those days.

J.L. Is your thought that God sovereignly begins anew in a soul, and if there is to be any progress or development, the Holy Spirit is necessary?

J.T. Yes, there may be development before, because this chapter indicates improvements on what marked the disciples at the endings of the gospels, and it is to emphasise what the work of God is in itself. On the other hand, those who have not the Spirit should become exercised so as to be sure to have Him, because if they do not, they will never

make any definite headway according to the mind of God.

Ques. By what means is this work of God accomplished?

J.T. Well, the work that we are speaking of, of course, begins with new birth, but we are to distinguish that from the Spirit as come, and how He operates in the soul of a believer after He is received.

D.F. Does Nicodemus afford us an example of what is before you? The Lord speaking to him at first says, "Except any one be born anew he cannot see the kingdom of God", and the footnote there (in the Darby Translation) says, 'It is a new source and beginning of life'.

J.T. Well, that is important, and what the Lord adds to that is in agreement with what we have been saying, and it ought to be clear. In verse 5 we read, "Except any one be born of water and of Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God". The idea of entering is an increase on seeing.

Ques. Does entering involve enjoyment of the position, whereas seeing would be apprehension; new birth giving one the ability for this?

J.T. Quite so. What He is dealing with is new birth, not the gospel, in the third chapter of John's gospel.

H.McL. What is meant by being "sealed with the Holy Spirit", in Ephesians 1:13, and when does that take place?

J.T. That takes place when the Holy Spirit comes into the believer, when He is received. So that we read in 2 Corinthians 1, "Now he that establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us, is God, who also has sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts". There are three things, the anointing, the sealing, and the earnest in the heart.

G.D. The movement is very quick with Cornelius and his company. Would you suggest that Cornelius sets forth one who was good material?

J.T. Yes, he was already born anew. He was already recognised in heaven as having built up a memorial before he had the Spirit, and so while Peter is speaking to the company in his house, the Holy Spirit fell upon them before Peter stopped speaking; this shows how ready the Spirit was to come into persons to seal them who were ready for Him.

F.I. You were speaking last evening as to being born of God. What relation has that to new birth and the reception of the Spirit?

J.T. I would think that the reception of the Spirit implies that the receivers were born of God, but the new birth does not go so far as being born of God. I am going by the words of the Lord. Jesus; He said that unless anyone be born again, or born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Ques. How far does the Lord's statement to Nicodemus go, "born of water and of Spirit"? Would you say that the one involves the kingdom and the other the assembly?

J.T. It is just enlargement of what He had said. I do not think either involves the assembly.

R.B. Does the reception of the Holy Spirit involve the assembly?

J.T. The reception of the Holy Spirit does involve the assembly, but then we have spoken of two things, "born anew" and "born of water and of Spirit". This latter is an increase on "born anew", and it shows that the work of God itself progresses.

Ques. Is new birth entirely sovereign in the way of the work of God, or do you allow the idea of responsibility in it?

J.T. I would say it is entirely the sovereignty of God by the Spirit; if the word sovereign means anything,

it means that. You do not preach to people to be born anew. What you do say to them is, "Ye must be born again". That is to say, the thing must happen, and it is a sovereign act of God when it does happen.

A.R. Would you present it to people's responsibility that they must be born again?

J.T. I certainly should, especially if they are religious. If you were speaking to a number of religious persons, who depend on their own good works, would you not say to them, "Ye must be born again"? I would say that the Lord implies in the way He speaks to Nicodemus, that Nicodemus himself was born again. "But there was a man from among the Pharisees, his name Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews; he came to him by night, and said to him, Rabbi".

Rem. John says that the Lord did not commit Himself to men, for He knew what was in man. "But there was a man"; the 'but' implies that Nicodemus was the subject of new birth.

J.T. Quite so.

H.K.R. Does the sovereign action come in in John 3:8, "the wind bloweth where it listeth"?

J.T. I would say that shows the sovereign action. You cannot explain it; no natural man can explain it, "so is everyone that is born of the Spirit".

Ques. Of one of the scribes in Mark 12, who conversed with the Lord as to the commandments, we are told that "Jesus, seeing that he had answered intelligently, said to him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God". Would that show the work of God?

J.T. That is a good illustration of the work of God, and there are such. Very little can be said about them, but there is something by which you can discern that the work of God is taking place in them, and I believe that is what the Lord meant.

The Lord saw that he answered intelligently. That is the word Paul applies to those of us who partake of the Lord's supper; "I speak as to intelligent persons".

G.L. They said, "Thou Lord, knower of the hearts of all", Acts 1:24. Would that have in mind what would develop as the work of God progressed?

J.T. Just so. God knows what is going on in our hearts.

I think we should now go on to verse 21; "It is necessary therefore, that of the men who have assembled with us all the time in which the Lord Jesus came in and went out among us, beginning from the baptism of John until the day in which he was taken up from us, one of these should be a witness with us of his resurrection". Now this shows remarkable intelligence in Peter. He knows that an apostle is to be selected, and he is to be one who is conversant with the Lord's life, His ways and ministry from the baptism of John until He was taken up. It is remarkable that Peter had that intelligence at this point, and so it is said, "And they appointed two, Joseph, who was called Barsabas, who had been surnamed Justus, and Matthias. And they prayed, and said, Thou Lord, knower of the hearts of all, shew which one of these two thou hast chosen, to receive the lot of this service and apostleship, from which Judas transgressing fell to go to his own place. And they Gave lots on them, and the lot fell on Matthias, and he was numbered with the eleven apostles". That shows that heaven intervened and supported what they were doing, but they were doing it, showing that the work of God in them was progressing.

-.P. Peter skilfully brings in the quotation from Psalm 69.

J.T. Quite so. The Lord Himself had instructed him. He opened their understandings in view of

telling them how the gospel should be proclaimed, that repentance and remission of sins should be proclaimed to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

W.S. They chose two, who were suitable as far as they could discern, but the Lord's choice is final.

J.T. They gave lots on them, and the lot fell on Matthias. It was the Old Testament way, but it was honoured for the Lord Himself indicated by it His choice of Matthias for the position; so it is said later that He appeared to the twelve, meaning that Matthias was among them.

H.K.R. One is impressed in regard to the basic thought you have been bringing before us, and the importance of the names. Does the work of God in the soul call for a name being put upon it, especially in the light of things at the present day?

J.T. Well, what you say is right. What we have said already about Peter refers to that. John says, "thou shalt be called Cephas". Matthew says, "thou art Peter", meaning that he was the thing, not called Peter. That is important, that we are what we say we are.

THE FOUNDATION OF GOD

1 Corinthians 1:1 - 9; 1 Corinthians 3:14 - 17; 1 Corinthians 5:6 - 8; 2 Timothy 2:19, 21

J.T. The object in mind in the first set of scriptures read, is to call attention to what was at the beginning, the Holy Spirit having come. The saints at Corinth are addressed according to what we have read as "the assembly of God which is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called saints, with all that in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both theirs and ours". The saints at Corinth arc thus regarded as having the status of the assembly of God, which is at Corinth. The passages read treat of the truth in an abstract way, as I hope to show. The brethren will understand that I use the word abstract in no sense to baffle our minds, but simply that we may see that divine conditions are seen as intact, notwithstanding the serious evil that had arisen in the assembly at Corinth. The evil, in itself, did not disturb the status of the assembly, for it is regarded as "the assembly of God" in Corinth in spite of what had transpired. The same is true of what was read in the third chapter which refers to the temple of God and then in the fifth chapter, where, although there was serious wickedness, they are enjoined to purge out the old leaven, "according as ye are unleavened". That is the abstract idea. It is said that they were unleavened notwithstanding the serious evil which had arisen, but the Spirit of God through Paul urged the saints to purge it out. The passage in the second epistle to Timothy shows that evil had come in to such a degree in the profession that it had to be called a great house; the local companies being no longer acknowledged publicly as the assembly of God. It is viewed as a leavened system, not as it was in 1 Corinthians, but because of the seriousness

of the evil that had come in. That evil is indicated in what is said in verse 16 of the chapter read, "But profane, vain babblings shun, for they will advance to greater impiety, and their word will spread as a gangrene; of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; men who as to the truth have gone astray, saying that the resurrection has taken place already, and overthrow the faith of some". That is to say, the faith of some that were there was overthrown by the evil doctrine, but even so the Spirit of God says, "Yet the firm foundation of God stands". That is to say, the foundation that Paul said he had placed in Corinth stood in spite of the evil that had come in; that foundation was of God. Paul goes on to say, "The Lord knows those that are his; and, Let every one who names the name of the Lord withdraw from iniquity". That is to say, the withdrawal from iniquity would enable those who thus acted to pursue what is indicated in the first chapter of 1 Corinthians. They would not assume to be the assembly of God, but would act in the light of it, recognising that they were but a remnant of persons who had withdrawn from the public profession of Christianity. The apostle then goes on to say, "But in a great house there are not only gold and silver vessels, but also wooden and earthen; and some to honour, and some to dishonour". This is followed by another statement of special importance, "if therefore one shall have purified himself from these", that is, vessels to dishonour, "in separating himself from them, he shall be a vessel to honour, sanctified, serviceable to the Master, prepared for every good work". These preliminary remarks have been made deliberately, so that the brethren will understand what is in mind. The last scripture read in the second epistle to Timothy contemplates where the brethren are now. God is mercifully coming in and

separating His people from the evil that has grown up in Christendom, so that His service should continue. It is said here, "Yet the firm foundation of God stands". It is not said, that it should stand; it does stand, so that, as having withdrawn from iniquity, we can go on with the service and testimony of God.

T.M. We must keep the abstract idea in mind; and, acknowledging and judging the ruin that has come in, separate from iniquity. Is that in your mind?

J.T. That is right. The abstract idea refers to what God has affected, and we are entitled thus to regard those who are separated from the evil, as being separated ourselves. Any who think that they can continue in the public associations of Christendom, without being separated from the evil, will find that God will not be with them. The Christian profession is now regarded as a great house, in which there are vessels to honour and vessels to dishonour, but in order to be serviceable, it is necessary to withdraw from iniquity, and be separated from the dishonourable vessels.

A.I. The great difficulty has been, in persons trying to rectify the bad conditions of things, whereas we are told to withdraw from iniquity and separate ourselves.

J.T. That is the word. It is plainly stated, "Let every one who names the name of the Lord withdraw from iniquity". The iniquity is not stated, but whatever iniquity it may be the believer ought to be able to discern and name it. And then it goes on in verse 20, "But in a great house there are not only gold and silver vessels, but also wooden and earthen; and some to honour, and some to dishonour". These are specified. The iniquity of verse 19 is not specified. It is for us to discern iniquity and to withdraw from it, but verse 21 says,

"If therefore, one shall have purified himself from these in separating himself from them"; that is to say, from "vessels to dishonour"; such are unconverted or unjudged persons operating in the things of God.

J.M. Is this an individual matter?

J.T. The separating is. Paul says, "Let every one". We do not separate en masse. Each separates for himself. Multitudes might go on with the evil, as is evident in the profession; but those who have withdrawn and separated, as coming together are purified, and can in humility take on the position of the assembly of God, carrying on the service of God.

R.P. Is that the way in which the fellowship can be recognised?

J.T. Quite so; where there is separation from evil. Following that there is the positive side, stated in verse 22, "But youthful lusts flee, and pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace, with those that call upon the Lord out of a pure heart". That is where, I might say, the conditions are seen.

A.I. We are balanced with those two words "with those". Some might have had an independent view of the pathway, but it says, "with those that call upon the Lord out of a pure heart". There are those with whom we can walk.

J.T. We can. Thank God there are some in many places throughout the world with whom we can walk and follow what is of God. We would like to be sure that the brethren have the abstract idea, that we might understand what is meant in the scriptures read in 1 Corinthians. The scripture in chapter 3, for instance (verse 16), "Do ye not know that ye" (that is the saints in Corinth) "are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?" And then, another thing as to the abstract idea is in verse 14, "if the work of any one which he has built upon the foundation shall abide, he

shall receive a reward. If the work of any one shall be consumed, he shall suffer loss, but he shall be saved, but so as through the fire" (verses 14, 15). The man is saved in spite of the fact that his works are burned up, meaning that abstractly he is a subject of the work of God, and that in itself remains, but he never judged the principle of the evil; he was saved so as through fire.

T.M. Do you see the principle of it in Lot? He never judged the principle of the world, yet he was saved, but as through the fire.

J.T. He was difficultly saved. Peter says, "if the righteous is difficultly saved", referring to the conditions through which he is saved.

A.M-r. Is the foundation here the same as in 2 Timothy 2?

J.T. No; save in the sense that what Paul laid at Corinth was of God, hence the Corinthian saints are said to be the temple of God without any modification or qualification, although the apostle goes on to say that there was evil amongst them. That is to say, they were viewed abstractly as the temple of God, because the Spirit of God was dwelling there. It is God's foundation, although Paul had laid it.

W.C. What might we understand by these terms, "the assembly of God", and "the temple of God"?

J.T. Well, the assembly of God is the way the saints are addressed in the first chapter; they are also said to be the temple, but this has a different meaning. The idea of assembly is that the persons are called out of the world and constituted, by reason of the presence of the Holy Spirit and the work of God in each individual, equal to act for God as His assembly; but the temple is where divine communications are made, where God speaks to His people. The word assembly does not mean the same as the word temple, although it refers to

the same persons. The divine communications are made because the Spirit of God is in the place.

D.S.M. Does the first epistle to the Corinthians bring out the furnishings that are available for the saints of God who accept the ruin spoken of in second Timothy?

J.T. Quite so. In verse 4 of chapter 1, Paul says, "I thank my God always about you, in respect of the grace of God given to you in Christ Jesus; that in everything ye have been enriched in him, in all word of doctrine, and all knowledge, (according as the testimony of the Christ has been confirmed in you,) so that ye come short in no gift". The apostle does not speak of their requirements, but rather of God's enrichments or furnishings, that they are well furnished. "in everything ye have been enriched in him in all word of doctrine, and all knowledge (according as the testimony of the Christ has been confirmed in you), so that ye come short in no gift, awaiting the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ; who shall also confirm you to the end, unimpeachable in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ", and then he adds another great furnishing, "God is faithful, by whom ye have been called into the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord". The whole thing thus stated is abstract, and there is no discrepancy. The work of God is contemplated; what He had effected in the Corinthians.

J.L. Does the status of the assembly stand connected with the fellowship of His Son?

J.T. It does clearly. The abstract passage, I would say, ends in the ninth verse, although the abstract idea runs through the whole epistle, but these verses in themselves contemplate the intactness of the assembly in Corinth, in spite of the fact that there was actual evil there, but it was stated by the apostle in view of the evil being dealt with. However, it was not all dealt with or put away,

because it is said later in the second letter that there were certain things to be dealt with (2 Corinthians 12:21); but in that there was that which had been dealt with -- there was a good moral reason for regarding them as clear.

Rem. So that the abstract position enables us not only to find our way intelligently in relation to the profession, but also to go on together as working out divine thoughts.

J.T. That is the idea; to go on together. As already remarked, there is that which we are to flee and what we are to pursue. "But youthful lusts flee, and pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace, with those that call upon the Lord out of a pure heart". Thus it is that we go on together. We might be a hundred, or two only, but we can go on, and the Lord Jesus has promised to be with us. As it says at the end of Matthew, "lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end". Then in Matthew 18:20, He says, "Where two or three are gathered together unto my name, there am I in the midst of them".

A.I. You mentioned the remnant idea of things, and I suppose that always has to be taken account of. The word to Philadelphia says, "Thou hast a little strength ... and hast not denied my name". Weakness is there, yet there is a little strength.

J.T. Quite so, but that epistle contemplates the intactness of what there is. It is the day of small things. What is of God is there, and in a remnant, and He says "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee"; 'thee' here means the whole assembly. The assembly is indwelt by the Spirit of God. We are to be kept "out of the hour of trial, which is about to come upon the whole habitable world, to try them that dwell upon the earth", Revelation 3:10.

A.B. Why does he bring in the brother, Sosthenes, in the first verse of 1 Corinthians?

J.T. I would say, to show the brotherly spirit that Paul maintained, for he was not writing simply for himself. He says, "Paul, a called apostle of Jesus Christ, by God's will, and Sosthenes the brother". You will find the same thing in other epistles. It is to bring in the brotherly element in order to add to the apostolic authority of Paul. In Exodus, Moses was to be the apostle to unfold the truth, but Aaron was given to him as a brother; "Is not Aaron the Levite thy brother?", God says, Exodus 4:14. Aaron as a brother would link up with Moses, and so here the brother is linked up with Paul. The extension of that would mean in this day, or wherever the brethren are gathered, that the brotherly element would be present as well as the authority that the Lord has placed among us.

E.R. We get "in Christ Jesus" seven times in the second epistle to Timothy.

J.T. That is proof that they were maintaining the intactness of the position. We are in Christ Jesus. We are not in the system of men.

T.M. Would you say that we have an analogy to that in Exodus 32, where Moses pitched the tent outside the camp? He acted on the principle of separation from the iniquity, owning the ruin.

J.T. Quite so. He went outside the camp because of the wickedness in the camp; the camp was corrupt. It is a very good scripture to bring in, in relation to 2 Timothy and 1 Corinthians.

A.M-d. What is involved in the expressions, "call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ" in 1 Corinthians; and then in 2 Timothy, "call upon the Lord"?

J.T. Well, I would say that the name of the Lord Jesus Christ is basic according to the Acts. The gospels and all the ministry are in that Name, and

so John says, "that ye might have life in his name". Things are held in that Name. It means that the Lord is not here. He is absent, but His Name is here, and the Spirit of God supports that Name, and those that call upon it. But then when we come to the Lord in the second epistle to Timothy, "But youthful lusts flee, and pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace, with those that call upon the Lord", I would say that refers to the authority of the Lord; it is to remind us of His authority. His name carries with it all that He is, but His authority is in the term "Lord". He is made "both Lord and Christ", we are told, which is important to keep before us. There are those who separate from the brethren, and do things that are contrary to the truth, and to the principles governing the assembly. Well, they are lawless, and the Lord will deal with them. The incestuous man who is spoken of in Corinthians is dealt with on that principle.

W.S. You mean on the principle of what is due to the Lord?

J.T. Just so. The apostle wrote to them saying, "For I, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged as present, to deliver, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, (ye and my spirit being gathered together, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ), him that has so wrought this; to deliver him, I say, being such, to Satan for destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus", 1 Corinthians 5:3 - 5. It is clear there that the authority of the Lord is carried into the act of discipline against the man who is put away from amongst the saints; he is delivered unto Satan for destruction of the flesh that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

R.P. What is involved in "all that in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both theirs and ours", 1 Corinthians 1:2?

J.T. Well, I think it is to bring out the universality of the assembly. That brings up another matter; namely, that at the beginning, in the book of Acts, there was a metropolitan situation at Jerusalem. The word assembly is used in the singular in Acts 2:47. The word assembly may not be strictly there, but it is in the principle of it. The assembly was there at Jerusalem in a metropolitan position in Judaea, and the Lord added to it, but in due course, as the testimony went on, through the labours of others and the apostle Paul, there were assemblies formed in gentile cities, not only the assembly in Jerusalem. There may have been several gatherings in Jerusalem, but no matter how many they would be called 'the assembly of God in Jerusalem'. In due time, we have assemblies in other cities, and it is said in Acts 14, that Paul and Barnabas chose there elders in each assembly; that would mean that these assemblies were constituted as self-supporting wherever they were throughout the earth. They would not be regulated by Jerusalem as a metropolitan centre. Wherever assemblies were formed, there were elders and these elders would rule, so that the order of God would be maintained, and with it the unity of the assemblies; as it is said by Paul, "Thus I ordain in all the assemblies". They would be in the same fellowship; the same teaching that marked one assembly would mark all the others, and that, I think, is what is meant here by the words, "all that in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both theirs and ours".

D.S.M. So that no local exercise would be taken up except in the light of what is universal.

J.T. That is the idea. Whatever is done should be such as could be endorsed by the brethren everywhere. Local independency is against the principles of the assembly in that sense.

F.I. Paul says in Corinthians we are "called into the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord". Is 'our Lord' the bond of fellowship?

J.T. That is just what we get here, and "God is faithful, by whom ye have been called". There is "the fellowship of his Son", our Lord, and then there is "the communion of the blood of Christ", that is, His death (chapter 10: 16); and then there is "the communion of the Holy Spirit", 2 Corinthians 13:14. So that the fellowship is the great feature in those matters.

W.C. Does the reference to "his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord", dignify the fellowship?

J.T. I would say so. It is not simply the Lord, but He is the Son of God; that is the great feature in it, that Christ is the Son of God. It is a great thing to keep in our minds the dignity of the fellowship. Imagine a person saying he was going out of fellowship in the light of that. How ridiculous, and yet how wrong!

Ques. Does that dignity enter into the working out of things in Matthew 18, "if also he will not listen to the assembly, let him be to thee as one of the nations and a tax-gatherer"?

J.T. Quite so; "let him be to thee as one of the nations and a tax-gatherer". He shows that he is unfit for the fellowship, and that the assembly has power to deal with evil. If the assembly is not recognised, the person is disqualified for the fellowship.

T.M. What is your thought in regard to localities where things have dwindled down to one brother? Does it bear out what we have here in principle?

J.T. Well, it would make it necessary for him to walk alone. He would have to do it. God would not leave him alone long.

A.I. Would you think that in the normal setting there are two or three gathered together?

J.T. Well, of course, he may have to learn to walk with God like Enoch; one brother could not maintain the service of God in the assembly, he could not break bread alone, and, of course, he may have to suffer and sacrifice and go to the next meeting. He would have to sacrifice so as to be with the brethren.

T.M. Even if there were two or three sisters in the locality walking in the same path.

J.T. Quite so, but they could go on and break bread together if they were in a normal setting. They could continue to break bread because there are two or three. The scripture does not say two or three brothers, but "two of you".

T.M. One would like help in regard to dealing with evil where two or three witnesses are needed. In regard to dealing with evil can sisters be with us?

J.T. Quite so. They should be listened to. The Lord rebuked the apostles in Mark 16, because they did not believe what the women said.

A.I. Is there a normal assembly function with one brother?

J.T. Why not? It may be small conditions, but it is a situation that the Lord can own, because you have three or four persons who love the Lord, who have the Spirit, who are of the assembly. Why not continue?

J.B. The keeping of the concrete idea before us would be a great matter?

J.T. Quite so. That is what I was saying. I hope we all take it in, because it is an immense thing in heaven to have one or two who love the Lord Jesus, and who care for His interests. Sisters, or even a sister, are regarded as capable of exercising discipline. If there is a brother there, and he is not going on in the truth, the sister may have to separate from him, which would be exercising discipline.

H.P. Does the whole of this epistle govern the situation?

J.T. 1 Corinthians does. It is all one thing, really. It is in the singular. It is all one commandment, really. Paul says, "let him recognise the things that I write to you, that it is the Lord's commandment", 1 Corinthians 14:37. You see what scope we have in the term "Lord".

W.S. I was wondering if the elect lady would come in here?

J.T. The second epistle of John speaks of this: "The elder to the elect lady and her children, whom I love in truth, and not I only but also all who have known the truth, for the truth's sake which abides in us and shall be with us to eternity. Grace shall be with you, mercy, peace from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love. I rejoiced greatly that I have found of thy children walking in truth, as we have received commandment from the Father. And now I beseech thee, lady, not as writing to thee a new commandment, but that which we have had from the beginning, that we should love one another. And this is love, that we should walk according to his commandments". So that this elect lady was being instructed, and exhorted in regard to all that we are speaking of. That as regards the truth, John says, "That ye might walk in it. For many deceivers have gone out into the world, they who do not confess Jesus Christ coming in flesh -- this is the deceiver and the antichrist. See to yourselves, that we may not lose what we have wrought, but may receive full wages. Whosoever goes forward and abides not in the doctrine of the Christ has not God. He that abides in the doctrine, he has both the Father and the Son. If any one come to you and bring not this doctrine, do not receive him into the house, and greet him not; for he who greets him partakes in his wicked

works". I think we can see that discipline is involved in all that.

F.I. Is it not one of the greatest encouragements we have in walking in the pathway in which we are, that we are able to exercise discipline. There are other companies of Christians who are not able to exercise discipline, but we are able to exercise discipline as moving in relation to divine principles.

J.T. I am sure we all agree with that. At least we all should.

A.B. God does not go on with evil either small or great.

J.T. Quite so. We do not need to, because we can separate from it. "Let everyone who names the name of the Lord withdraw from iniquity".

T.M. So that there is no excuse if there is only one brother, if you have godly sisters. They can act in the Lord's name.

J.T. Quite so. We have experienced that many times.

A.I. All this is to enhance the ground of our gathering.

J.T. Quite so. The abstract idea too, and how it applies to persons who have the Holy Spirit, as the Lord said of Him, "He dwelleth with you and shall be in you", John 14:17. He is the power by which we do all these things and exercise all matters of discipline.

T.M. Would you help us with regard to the difference between 1 Corinthians and 2 Timothy, in regard to the statements, "Remove the wicked person from amongst yourselves", and that in 2 Timothy as to "withdraw from iniquity", and purging ourselves from vessels to dishonour?

J.T. Well, putting away involves public power, whereas withdrawing is an acknowledgment that you cannot act in the same sense in power. We are

in a day of small things, and we have owned that we are, and that we are not possessed of the power that they had in apostolic times. The apostle says in 1 Corinthians 5, "with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ". "For I as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged as present, to deliver in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ". Notice this, he is doing it himself, "to deliver in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ (ye and my spirit being gathered together, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ)". He is not doing it by himself, individually, he is doing it with them, but it is in this way that he speaks: "Ye and my spirit being gathered together, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, him that has so wrought this: to deliver him, I say, being such, to Satan for destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus". That is the ground or basis on which things were carried out at the beginning, but the word in 2 Timothy indicates the ground or basis on which we have to act now, in the absence of public power; we are to withdraw from iniquity, but at the same time the foundation of God stands today.

J.B. Would you say it is the same in principle?

J.T. I would. It is the same in principle, only the weakness is acknowledged.

T.M. You mean that in withdrawing we are not claiming assembly status, as it was at Corinth. The designation "the assembly of God which is at Corinth" means they had that status and were thus owned of God, which meant public power to deal with evil.

J.T. We choose our language, and speak according to facts, and hence we are consistent in saying, we withdraw. There is no power to force people out if they do not walk in the truth, and therefore, we withdraw from them.

A.M-r. Have you the thought in Jeremiah 15, "if thou take forth the precious from the vile, thou shalt be as my mouth"?

J.T. That is a very good scripture. "If thou take forth the precious from the vile, thou shalt be as my mouth". That is a service that the brethren render, of course.

W.S. Is loyalty to Christ especially called for in remnant days?

J.T. Just so, as expressed in the word in 1 Chronicles 12, "Thine are we, David, and on thy side, thou son of Jesse". In Moses' time, to which we have already alluded, it says, "Who is on the Lord's side? Let him come unto me"; Exodus 32.

J.M. What is the thought of withdrawing in 2 Thessalonians? "Now we enjoin you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw from every brother walking disorderly and not according to the instruction which he received from us" (2 Thessalonians 3:6).

J.T. That is plain enough so far, only it does not go so far as the instructions in 1 Corinthians or 2 Timothy. If you look at the margin you will see that the word withdraw means to shrink from. The word in the original only occurs there and in 2 Corinthians 8:20. It is not the same as withdrawing in 2 Timothy 2. These are important distinctions, because the man in question there in Thessalonica is not as you might say wicked as the man in 1 Corinthians 5. Paul goes on to say, "For ye know yourselves how ye ought to imitate us, because we have not walked disorderly among you; nor have we eaten bread from any one without cost; but in toil and hardship working night and day not to be chargeable to any one of you; not that we have not the right, but that we might give ourselves as an example to you, in order to your imitating us. For also when we were with you we enjoined you this,

that if any man does not like to work, neither let him eat. For we hear that there are some walking among you disorderly, not working at all, but busybodies. Now such we enjoin and exhort in the Lord Jesus Christ, that working quietly they eat their own bread". That is evidently not as serious as the wickedness at Corinth. It is a matter of a brother failing to work.

J.M. He would still be breaking bread.

J.T. Yes, quite so.

J.M-r. Is the withdrawal in 2 Timothy individual, and in 2 Thessalonians collective?

J.T. I would say that 2 Timothy means that we withdraw severally, although we are walking together in it; yet the withdrawal is for each one to come to. The passage read in 2 Thessalonians could refer to what is collective. "We enjoin you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that ye withdraw"; 'ye' implies what is collective; that is, the body of the brethren would withdraw from the brother like this until he judged himself; he would then work and eat his own bread, and not live on others. He is not to be regarded as an enemy. That indicates that it is a gradation of sin.

Rem. The action would have an admonishing effect according to verse 15.

J.T. Quite so.

T.M. You might help us with regard to the grading of sin in Scripture.

J.T. Well, you have it here. This man is not of the same grade as the man in Corinth, and therefore they were not to put him away, but to shrink from him, avoid him, give him to understand his conduct is not just.

J.B. Would you say that this walking disorderly might mean more than not working?

J.T. Well, it might. The brethren are to use their judgment about things. There is the order of

the assembly, and according to it discipline and rule are to be maintained.

R.P. Is there a further difference in the turning away from one in Romans 16:17?

J.T. Yes, I think that is more serious. The apostle says, "But I beseech you, brethren, to consider those who create divisions and occasions of falling, contrary to the doctrine which ye have learnt, and turn away from them. For such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly, and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the unsuspecting". That shows that it is more serious than what is spoken of in 2 Thessalonians, and almost as serious as what is at Corinth, because they are causing discord among the brethren.

T.H. Do we need an assembly meeting for dealing with evil?

J.T. I would say that in obeying the injunction to turn away from such men as those mentioned in Romans 16:17, and 2 Timothy 3:5, the assembly should be brought into the matter and united action taken.

DAVID AND ABIGAIL

1 Samuel 25:1 - 9, 14 - 19, 32, 33, 39 - 42

J.T. There are several types which have served us well from time to time, to instruct us as to the assembly. David and Abigail will serve today, and the Lord might have a word for us in this type. It represents Christ militarily, and the assembly in accord with Him. Indeed the leading thought in the chapter is the assembly as typified in Abigail, who is said to have been marked by understanding. It is said, "the name of the man was Nabal, and the name of his wife, Abigail, and the woman was of good understanding and of a beautiful countenance". The type makes much of the beauty of Abigail and her understanding, two features of great importance spiritually. The masculine side is not so pronounced; but it is seen in David, who in this chapter would in measure represent the brethren, although he does represent Christ in it. Sometimes those in responsibility in the testimony fail and the subjective side then comes into evidence, steadying the position; hence the wisdom of keeping sisters in mind as well as the brothers, in all matters of administration, because the administrative side requires the sisters as well as the brothers. Abigail specially represents skill and feeling according to God, at least in an administrative sense.

T.M. Do you see that in principle in the wise woman of Abel? She went to all the people in her wisdom (2 Samuel 20:20 - 22).

J.T. Quite so; she is a very good example, Abigail herself comparing with her in the wise approach she made to David.

A.I. Would you explain the administrative side in relation to the sisters' service?

J.T. Well, the woman of worth in the last chapter of the book of Proverbs is intended to represent

that. She is like Abigail though a hypothetical person, but presented to us in that light as a woman of great skill and great understanding, knowing what to do in all circumstances.

J.B. Is that service going on behind the scenes? I was thinking of "her husband is known in the gates", Proverbs 31:23.

J.T. Just so. I was thinking of what might come into that, also the woman in 2 Samuel 20; then in the case of Abigail, and in the instance of Sarah herself, who, although not presented as a type of the assembly, yet presents much that suggests it characteristically. Her words, which show determination as to Hagar and Ishmael, are quoted as scripture. She said that they should be cast out. In the epistle to the Galatians we read, "What saith the scripture?". Instances of that kind, and others referred to, illustrate the skill and wisdom of sisters in meeting emergencies. For instance, the elect lady in John's epistle may be so regarded.

T.M. Would you not regard that more on the line of what is individual? We referred yesterday to the position where there is only one brother in a locality; how would things be carried out assembly-wise with sisters as to administration?

J.T. Well, I think we see it in the scriptures alluded to. There was the question of Ishmael. His father was very concerned about him, but would have him remain in the house. God said to him as to Hagar and Ishmael, "In all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice". He did hearken to her, and the word of Sarah at that time is formally quoted by the apostle saying, "What saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son". So that, whatever emergency might be in mind, and they are coming up constantly, we understand that the assembly is qualified to meet them, because she is here in the absence of Christ. That

is the position of the woman of worth in Proverbs 31; her husband is not in view, nor are his activities spoken of, but hers; yet he is known in the gates where administration is carried on. His heart confides in her.

A.I. Then is the woman in Proverbs a direct type of the assembly in that setting?

J.T. Yes, but she is spoken of in an abstract way. Undoubtedly the assembly is in mind. The book of Proverbs is the book of the wise man, and thus refers to Christ, but then He is absent; the Lord's supper supposes that He is absent. He comes to us, but we are to carry on in the interval, as furnished with what God gives us, "the all-various wisdom of God", which is in the assembly, not simply in Christ, but in the assembly (Ephesians 3).

Ques. Does Deborah in the book of Judges show how the feminine side is taken up in an emergency?

J.T. She really is the guiding spirit in the whole matter there, although she is out of view in a certain sense, and she is not mentioned in Hebrews 11. Barak is mentioned, but Deborah is distinguished in the way that she acted behind the scenes as in the secret of the matter.

G.M. It is said of the woman in Proverbs, "The heart of her husband confideth in her, and he shall have no lack of spoil". She would be going in for the spoil.

J.T. Deborah would represent that, also another woman in the same section; that is, Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite. She was militant.

A.I. On the side of administration, do you mean that the sisters would be behind the scenes?

J.T. Well, generally, because they cannot speak in the assembly, but they can speak to their husbands at home.

W.C. How would you take account of Abigail here being linked with Nabal, and yet she had good

understanding, having the features of Christ as seen in David?

J.T. Well, I suppose the type in this chapter contemplates the history of Abigail and the history of David too. They were contemporary of course, and I should think pretty much of the same age. They were contemporary and hence represent the wisdom to be acquired in the book of Samuel. The first book of Samuel has its own voice, and brings out the wisdom that was in such a man as Samuel himself, prophetic wisdom, which is a great matter now. God is reviving the thought of prophecy in our meetings for ministry, and it is intended to form the saints collectively; it is intended to form us all. So I believe that what we may be initially often changes as we develop through prophetic ministry that comes to us. Undoubtedly Abigail's whole outlook would be changed as she formed a judgment about Nabal; the young man had a right judgment of him too. The judgment expressed by the young man is like that of anyone in the assembly with light and faithfulness. It says of him, in verse 14, "And one of Nabal's young men told Abigail, Nabal's wife". He is spoken of as one of Nabal's young men, because he was ostensibly one of his servants; he told Abigail, Nabal's wife, saying, "Behold David sent messengers out of the wilderness to bless our master; and he has insulted them. And the men were very good to us, and we were not hurt, neither missed we anything as long as we companied with them, when we were in the fields. They were a wall to us both by night and day, all the while we were with them feeding the sheep. And now know and consider what thou wilt do, for evil is determined against our master and against all his household; and he is such a son of Belial, that one cannot speak to him". And this represents the judgment of Abigail herself. So that the brethren

who are active in the assembly often have changes in their lives, and this is undoubtedly so in her case. She formed the judgment about her husband.

D.S.M. Samuel's death is referred to at the beginning of this chapter. Would Abigail represent the product of his ministry?

J.T. That is what I was thinking. He personally is stressed. Samuel died. It was a time of great sorrow really, and all Israel were gathered together and lamented him, and they buried him in his house at Ramah. So that we have history behind all this, including Samuel's ministry; the man who was recognised as the prophet from Dan to Beersheba, whose words did not fall to the ground. Evidently they had not fallen to the ground from Abigail, nor from David.

T.M. Why do you think that there is stress laid on the greatness of this man Nabal, and what he had here in contrast to David's position?

J.T. I think he would represent the Jewish nation at the time of the introduction of the assembly. His character is seen even in Saul of Tarsus, an insolent, overbearing man, we are told.

A.M-d. Paul speaks of grievous wolves not sparing the flock. It speaks of Nabal here as insulting David's messengers. That spirit follows on in the course of the testimony.

J.T. Quite so. You would not be sure of the sheep if you had someone like that about.

A.M-d. I was thinking of what place king Saul, who did not change, has over against David. He would be of Nabal's spirit.

J.T. He had the same character right through.

A.M-d. Nabal speaks well of Saul. He says, "There are many servants nowadays that break away every man from his master". He thought much more of Saul than of David.

J.T. It was a sharp thrust at David, when he said, "Many servants ... break away". He meant that David was headstrong, unreliable; at least the enemy would say so.

A.M-d. Nabal suggests that Saul was the man to follow?

J.T. Quite so. Well, we have now to consider the qualities of Abigail, because the qualities of David are not in mind so much. It is not David so much as the assembly. Although Christ is in mind too, it is rather the assembly, and how reliable it is in an emergency.

G.M. Would the young man in that way be intelligent as regards what the assembly should do? "Know and consider what thou wilt do".

J.T. He is not a mere messenger. He is an intelligent person, an intelligent brother, as we all ought to be. If anything arises, each of us should feel obligated to speak of it. One hears of things being said among the brethren that are not scriptural, but nothing being said by persons who ought to deal with them. That is the thing that enters into the chapter.

T.M. Are you suggesting that the young man puts information in the right place? He tells the assembly. Along with Abigail he had a right judgment in regard to things.

J.T. Quite so. If you hear anything, if such a one as myself, for instance, says something not true, the brethren ought to be on the alert, and not be afraid to speak about it.

A.I. Are you thinking of this matter of weighing things? "Know and consider". David was inclined to be rash.

J.T. He was rash. Therefore, it is not exactly the Lord, although He is here too, but I think that David is intended to be seen as a type of the brethren more, those who are responsible. We are apt to be

rash in these cases, whereas what the young man does is what any true brother or sister ought to do; if anything that he observes is wrong, he should lay the information where it belongs. Abigail represents the assembly in that sense. "Tell it to the assembly", is the word in Matthew 18.

W.C. Do you mean that the church militant has power and wisdom to deal with any evil that might arise?

J.T. Just so, but especially when it is a question of meeting David. I mean of dealing with brethren themselves who are in the position of administration and may fail in it. She knew what to do. She learned from her young man, or rather Nabal's young man. He said to her, "And now know and consider what thou wilt do". He is doing his part, but he is speaking to those who are responsible. He is not speaking to David, but to Abigail, and she is responsible. He says, "For evil is determined against our master and against all his household". And then it says that Abigail made haste, taking with her abundant testimony to her regard for David. "She came down by the covert of the hill and behold David and his men came down against her, and she met them". Her wisdom shines in the way she turns David from his purpose, so that David comes to what is right. She has dissuaded him against an act of vengeance that he thought of. God has to do with the matter, and He deals with Nabal, and David is preserved by wisdom. There are things that happen amongst us that God alone can settle, and we have to give Him time to do it. After about ten days "the Lord smote Nabal that he died".

J.B. David says to Abigail, "Blessed be Jehovah, the God of Israel, who sent thee this day to meet me".

J.T. Quite so. David is recognizing the wisdom of Abigail, and he said, "Blessed be Jehovah, the

God of Israel, who sent thee this day to meet me. And blessed be thy discernment, and blessed be thou, who hast kept me this day from coming with bloodshed, and from avenging myself with mine own hand". So that we can see how the responsible element may be dissuaded from what is not right by the calm, patient advice from sisters. Hence, the sisters need to be wise, to clothe with wisdom what they should say to their husbands. It is said, "Let them ask their husbands at home".

P.M. The king's business requires haste, and it says of Abigail that she made haste.

Ques. Do you think that her discernment is particularly emphasised in what she selected, as meeting the situation in the food she brought?

J.T. Yes. The food is a beautiful thought. Food has a great place in the economy of the assembly. "Let a man examine himself and so let him eat". The eating must be continued in order to build up the constitution, the power that our constitutions need. I am not saying it is solely dependent on the Lord's supper, but it is the idea of eating. And so you are struck with the variety. "Abigail made haste, and took two hundred loaves, and two skin-bottles of wine, and five sheep ready dressed, and five measures of parched corn, and a hundred raisin-cakes, and two hundred fig-cakes, and laid them on asses. And she said to her young men, Go on before me; behold, I come after you". She is wonderfully furnished to meet David. She had to appease him, because the whole matter was in her hands for the moment. Her husband was yet alive, and vengeance was against him, and it was for her to set aside the vengeance by grace, because that is the idea in the food, the excess of grace.

J.M. The first words that Abigail said to David were, "Upon me, my lord, upon me let the iniquity be". Why did she take that place?

J.T. She is taking the responsible place. It is really like Christ; like Rebecca in relation to Jacob. She took on the responsibility.

W.S. Would you say that David sets forth the brothers who might sometimes be found acting rashly?

J.T. Well, that is what I have in mind. Very often we do act rashly and very often feelings arise from behind the rashness.

W.B. In Acts 5, when evil came up, Peter dealt with it apostolically, but in 1 Corinthians 5, Paul brings the whole assembly in, not merely brothers in care, dealing with evil; it is a question of the value of the assembly as balancing what brothers in care might think to do rashly.

J.T. Quite so. The sisters ought to have the balance. There is a beautiful word in Nehemiah. Nehemiah sought something from the king, which he succeeded in obtaining, but it says, "the queen also sitting by". She was not saying anything, but she was there; it is the feminine spirit.

G.M. Is that seen in what Abigail says, that the food is to be "given to the young men that follow my lord"? The young men that are following David are now getting this food.

J.T. I think the idea of food in this respect is grace, the overwhelming power of grace, and Abigail was the giver, but then she was in keeping with what she had with her according to David's own report. "Blessed be Jehovah, the God of Israel, who sent thee this day to meet me. And blessed be thy discernment, and blessed be thou, who hast kept me this day from coming with bloodshed, and from avenging myself with mine own hand". He does not refer to the food, but to her discernment and then says, "Blessed be thou", meaning that she had acquired a place now in his mind.

A.M-d. Would the sisters be tested as to their substance? I was just thinking of the women in Luke 8, and at the cross, and of Lydia, and of the elect lady. It is important to have substance.

J.T. Very good, and there is the other at the end of Romans, Phoebe. You remember the beautiful tribute of the apostle in regard of her. All these and many more are in mind in the feminine side, what they can do in the way of influence and wisdom. According to 2 Samuel 20, as has been remarked already, the wise woman of Abel went to all the people in her wisdom. She went to Joab too. She saved the city.

D.S.M. The households are brought in at Corinth. Does that imply what you are saying? The house of Chloe told Paul.

J.T. That is remarkable. Paul had learned certain things from her. He had learned other things by common report, such as the incestuous man, but he learned from Chloe the division amongst the brethren at Corinth. Then we have the women in Philippians, who laboured with him in the gospel.

Ques. Does what Abigail says of David, in verse 28, "Evil has not been found in thee all thy days", correspond to the idea of the abstract you were speaking about? She holds on to that.

J.T. Quite so. She rose in her thoughts above the level of the chapter, I would say, as shown in the beautiful remarks she makes about David. She says further, "If a man is risen up to pursue thee". She alludes, not to Nabal but to Saul, for she has a judgment about him also. "If a man is risen up to pursue thee and to seek thy life, the soul of my lord shall be bound in the bundle of the living with Jehovah thy God; and the souls of thine enemies, them shall he sling out from the hollow of the sling. And it shall come to pass, when Jehovah shall do to my lord according to all the good that he has spoken

concerning thee, and shall appoint thee ruler over Israel, that this shall be no stumbling block to thee, nor offence of heart for my lord, either that thou hast shed blood without cause, or that my lord has avenged himself. And when Jehovah shall deal well with my lord, then remember thy handmaid". She is prophetic in what she says. All this is a most important matter as regards the composition of the assembly. The assembly is not composed of men. It is men and women. The public assembly is now constituted of men and women. Together they have responsibility. Presently the merging power of God will bring all together, on the one side the feminine and on the other side the masculine in Christ. That is, I think, what we have to understand in regard to Christ and the assembly.

T.M. Do you not think that we often suffer on account of knowing things and not taking them up? Things are left undealt with. Abigail made haste.

J.T. Quite so.

A.I. This would not be Nabal's house now. "Go up to thy house".

J.T. I suppose it would be in a way her house; the abstract idea being continued. Following this we see the result: "And it came to pass in about ten days that Jehovah smote Nabal, and he died". That is to say, God takes up an issue like this if we give Him time. We are all tested, and we need patience, but God deals with matters. And so when David heard that Nabal was dead (he did not kill him, for Abigail prevented that), he says, "Blessed be Jehovah, who has pleaded the cause of my reproach from the hand of Nabal and has kept back his servant from evil; but Jehovah has returned Nabal's evil upon his own head. And David sent and communed with Abigail, to take her as his wife". That is the next thing. It is a question of moral grounds now. It is not simply on the ground of her

beauty and intelligence, but on account of her skill and the means she had of dealing with the situation; the food she selected and brought would indicate her skill, too.

D.S.M. In connection with the thought of food, what is introduced in the prophetic ministry in 1 Corinthians 14 is in order that the assembly may be edified and all may learn and be encouraged. Is that the bringing in of the food?

J.T. Just so, the prophetic word is mentioned; "rather that ye may prophesy". Let that be the kind of ministry.

G.S. It says of Abigail that in the morning she told Nabal of these things, and his heart died within him, and he became as a stone. Ten days later he died. Does that in any way correspond with what is bound on earth being bound in heaven, Matthew 18:18?

J.T. It does. It says his heart died within him. He did not die as yet; the end is prolonged, I suppose. Probably the death of the Jewish system in the early days of the assembly's history is in mind; from the time of Stephen's testimony and that wonderful death, his martyrdom, you may see Nabal, as it were, becoming defunct, gradually approaching his death; that is like the death of Judaism, because it had become the positive enemy of Christianity. Paul's ministry and testimony became the means of that; it dogged his steps throughout, but he said, "Lo, we turn to the Gentiles", Acts 13:46 and the Jews were left arguing with one another, and they are doing that yet to this very day.

G.W. You spoke at the outset of changed persons. I was wondering if this matter was prolonged so that we might come to a right judgment with regard to Nabal?

J.T. You mean as to the state described in Nabal.

Ques. Is your thought in the latter part of the chapter that, as these features come to light in the assembly, Christ delights to bring her into conscious nearness to Himself as united to Him? David communed with Abigail.

J.T. You see David's judgment of Abigail; it is not exactly Christ, although He is seen there, but it is the exercise of the masculine side; that is, the responsible element, so to speak, in the assembly. Abigail came to the right thought of Nabal, but David came to the right thought of her, and so the pronouncement, "Blessed be Jehovah, the God of Israel, who sent thee this day to meet me. And blessed be thy discernment, and blessed be thou". That is his judgment, and so what follows; that is, the death of Nabal brings about circumstances suitable for the union of Christ and the assembly; that is to say, it brings out the truth of it.

W.C. Would the smiting of Nabal be expressed in the word, "God has judged your judgment"? (Revelation 18:20).

J.T. Just so, but more particularly such judgment as is expressed in the epistle to the Thessalonians. In the second chapter of the first epistle, verse 14, the apostle says, "For ye brethren, have become imitators of the assemblies of God which are in Judaea in Christ Jesus; for ye also have suffered the same things of your own countrymen as also they of the Jews, who have both slain the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and have driven us out by persecution, and do not please God, and are against all men, forbidding us to speak to the nations that they may be saved, that they may fill up their sins always; but wrath has come upon them to the uttermost". That had to come about to make the way clear for the full thought of the assembly in Paul's ministry.

W.S. Has the Lord special pleasure in seeing the assembly answering to its responsibility?

J.T. I am sure He has. I am sure He is watching over all our care meetings, and efforts to maintain what is right in the spirit of grace. Abigail overcomes the spirit of Nabal, and so the Lord is pleased. I suppose David rises now to a type of Christ. It says, "David sent and communed with Abigail, to take her as his wife. And the servants of David came to Abigail to Carmel, and spoke to her, saying, David has sent us to thee, to take thee as his wife. And she arose and bowed herself on her face to the earth and said, Behold, let thy handmaid be a bondwoman to wash the feet of the servants of my lord. And Abigail hasted". She is hastening again; this time it is to be united to David. "And Abigail hasted and arose, and rode upon an ass, with five damsels of hers that followed her; and she went after the messengers of David and became his wife". These five damsels, I think, would be to emphasise the feminine thought. She was marked by it. There is the masculine thought, but there is also the feminine thought. The expression of femininity in Abigail here would not be to stress administration, but suitability to Christ, in view of our service at the Lord's supper, implying our suitability for this service.

T.M. Did David fail on the line of administration, but get adjustment through Abigail? The assembly is responsible for right doctrine; as information is brought to the assembly, things can be adjusted publicly.

J.T. So that we can have assembly service. Service begins with the Lord's supper, that is to say, Christ and the assembly, and then going on to the Father, but that does not appear here.

Ques. Is the same feature seen in Genesis 24, "Rebecca arose, and her maids, and they rode upon the camels, and followed the man"?

J.T. Just so; it is the feminine side. The femininity of the whole position is in mind, and that it is suitable, and hence the importance of the sisters maintaining feminine qualities according to God, and yet maintaining the wisdom that belongs to them; that is, the wisdom that belongs to women (Proverbs 14:1). At the same time, there is what goes with wisdom, that is, affection; both are to be maintained.

Ques. Are you thinking, too, that the brothers partake of that feminine spirit?

J.T. Well, we do. The position in the assembly is to be characterised by the feminine spirit, the whole assembly. From one aspect it is feminine and it is to exhibit the feminine idea. Frequently the assembly is viewed impersonally; as for instance, "the assembly of God which is at Corinth", but when we come to the matter of union with Christ, it is the feminine idea, and all are to be merged in it. The members of the assembly merge into one, in the feminine idea, and the masculine is seen in Christ.

J.W. Is that why the apostle labours for the saints in the first epistle to Corinthians, in order that, as in the second epistle, he might present them as a chaste virgin to Christ?

J.T. Quite so. There is more spirituality in the second epistle than in the first; principles are more stressed in the first, but, when we come to the second epistle, we come to the personal thought more; and so he says, in chapter 11, bringing in Adam and Eve, "I have espoused you unto one man, to present you a chaste virgin to Christ".

J.M. Do we see feminine wisdom in Abigail in 1 Samuel 25:36?

J.T. Yes, she knew how to be silent. We are told, let the women learn in silence (1 Corinthians 14:34, 35). That is another element.

A.M-r. Is the right attitude seen in Abigail which would work out in the washing of the assembly? "Behold, let thy handmaid be a bondwoman to wash the feet of the servants of my lord".

J.T. That is beautiful. It says, "she ... bowed herself on her face to the earth", and then we have already noticed that Abigail hasted. That is the third time she hasted.

A.I. There is another thing to be taken note of; "she came down".

J.T. She and David came down together. They met on the same level.

A.M-r. Would washing the feet of "the servants of my lord" be like John 13?

J.T. Quite so.

J.M. This was an opportunity for Abigail to have great thoughts of herself, as you were saying about John the baptist yesterday, but she had no ambitions.

J.T. I am sure the brethren would agree with that.

Ques. I would like to ask about what you were saying about the merging of the masculine and the feminine. Does what is feminine go into eternity in the assembly, while what is masculine is seen in Christ?

J.T. That is what I understand, Christ and the assembly. The assembly in another sense is seen in the aggregate of all believers having the Spirit, in the sense of persons. David speaks of Jonathan's personal affection as greater than that of women.

"THAT NO ONE TAKE THY CROWN"

Revelation 1:12 - 20; Revelation 3:7 - 13

I have read this section in Revelation 3 because of verse 11, "Hold fast what thou hast, that no one take thy crown". All that I have to say will centre around that verse, as bearing on this great moment; I mean the present moment, and all that enters into it, so as to impress us here at this time with the great responsibility resting upon us; that no one may regard themselves as irresponsible, but each one knowing what rests upon him, accepting it and doing what it involves. Luke begins his second treatise, as you will all remember, by mentioning what the Lord began both to do and to teach, doing first and then teaching. It is our hope that the teaching may proceed, the teaching that began, as John records, with the Lord Jesus who, as here in the flesh, is called Teacher in the early pages of that gospel. Mary Magdalene takes up the thought and furnishes a word that is peculiar, saying, "Rabboni"; He was her Teacher; not simply that He was a Teacher, but He was hers. In the case of Mary of Bethany, we have the anointing of the Lord's head; this is mentioned by more than one evangelist, and of her it is said that "she hath done what she could", Mark 14:8. That is a word, dear brethren, that I would seek to impress upon us all, "She hath done what she could". She anointed the Lord's head, which would mean that she recognised the divine intelligence that was there and available for her. Elsewhere she is seen sitting at the feet of Jesus and hearing what He said. That came in after the wonderful scene on the mount, called the mount of transfiguration, where the voice from heaven said, "This is my beloved Son, hear him"; that word should impress us; "Hear him".

Following this the Lord said of Mary as she sat listening to His word, "Mary has chosen the good part, the which shall not be taken from her"; Luke 10. Such expressions by the Lord would refer to His power, and what He will do, as we see it here in the passage I have read, when He speaks of Himself as the One "who opens and no one shall shut, and shuts and no one shall open". As with Mary, the good part could not be taken from her, so we can see, dear brethren, how the Lord would impress us with the impregnability of the protection He affords us, and the defence and support too that He affords us, so that we need not fear. Another word that is to be noted specially, occurring in the holy pages from the Old Testament and down to the Lord's last writings to the assembly, is "Fear not". The present situation politically, industrially, socially and financially is full of fear, but the Lord's word to us, I am assured, is "Fear not". I spoke of it before I crossed the Atlantic this time, I felt it was a word to the brethren in America, and I say it to you, dear brethren, now; the atmosphere all round us is charged with fear, nations fearing each other industrially, and otherwise; but the word to us is "Fear not". That word carries with it almighty power, almighty protection, whatever scientific men, so-called, may say, whatever dangers exist, and the hidden dangers, they are not intended to cause us to fear.

I have taken up these scriptures, as I said, with the thought before me of the word of the Lord to His assembly, saying to her, "Behold, I come quickly; hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown". That word comes like the blast of a trumpet in war, like the silver trumpets in the book of Numbers which were to be employed in the case of war. I intend to compass all the verses read in some sense and particularly

because of John. You may say, It should be because of the Lord, and of course it is; but the Lord is pleased to distinguish His own bondmen, and they are to be in mind, not always, but prominent at certain times. At times when love is in question John is in evidence; he is the disciple whom Jesus loved, which clearly would mean that he was a lover, he understood love, one of the most important things to understand. John quotes the Lord as saying, "By this shall all know that ye are disciples of mine, if ye have love amongst yourselves", John 13:35. This is what marks off Christianity from all other associations or societies; it has love in it, and John the evangelist, the writer of the gospel and the three epistles bearing his name, was the actual writer of this book.

The Lord is Himself the designer of the book and the author of it too, but He tells John how to write it. It is remarkable that John should be taken up in this peculiar way as a writer; in fact it is John who says, that if all the things which Jesus did were written, he supposed that "even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written". But he said, "These are written", that is to say, he calls attention to his own composition, and, of course, a servant whom the Lord employs in this sense ought not to be ashamed to call attention to his own words; if the Lord is not ashamed of them he need not be himself. So John says, "These are written, that ye may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life in his name". Many things are to be held in His name; salvation is in His name, life is in His name. The great question of life which the Lord Himself has brought up within the memory of some of us, the great question of eternal life, is still a burning question and will be till the end. So John says, "These are written that ye may believe

... and that believing ye might have life in his name"; a precious suggestion that you hold, that victory is in the name of the Lord Jesus, and is a matter of life.

It is in order that I should thus speak, because of what the Lord says to John here. It really is a conversation, as you might say, between the Lord and John, who in sitting down to carry out his holy task of writing this book, places certain verses at the outset; a foreword for us so as to introduce us into the great subject of the Apocalypse, a subject which came in late in the history of revelation. Things had begun to wane and flag; disloyalty had come in. It is recorded in Mark 13 that He said that neither the angels nor Himself knew certain things; that is, the day and the hour of His coming; only the Father knew. This is one of the most interesting matters, and undoubtedly His words link on with this wonderful book called the Apocalypse which is said to have been given to Him by God. John, in writing this book, embellishes it at the outset, calling attention to the Deity and other matters in relation to God, and to the assembly too; so that we are introduced into the book with most blessed suggestions. In verse 4 we read, "John to the seven churches which are in Asia", and then he speaks of the blessing which is ours, saying that God has "made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father: to him be the glory and the might to the ages of ages, Amen. Behold he comes with the clouds, and every eye shall see him, and they which have pierced him, and all the tribes of the land shall wail because of him. Yea. Amen. I am the Alpha and the Omega, saith the Lord God, he who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty". These are assertions of Deity, of Him "who is, and who was, and who is to come".

We can see how nobly John served his Lord and Master in writing this book, and in doing what was needed in order to present it to be read. He adds a premium to the reading of it, which we ought to take notice of. It is hardly found anywhere else, but in this book. This book is to be read; not to be thought by anyone as too hard to be understood, but to be read and read and read again. It will be understood as we read it; as Habakkuk says of his prophecy "that he may run that readeth it" (chapter 2: 2). This book is written for that purpose, because these are most urgent times and they are short too. The Lord says in the verse 1 had particularly in mind that the crown might be snatched from us, so that we are to be continually on the alert, so that we may not be robbed of our greatest distinction. We are not told what the crown is, and that makes it all the more precious. We are to see to it that it is not snatched from us, stolen from us. We are to be always on the alert, to be doing; that is the principle.

So, as I said, John is taken up by the Lord, and he says, "I turned to see the voice", showing that he was an alert attendant to what was being done. Earlier he says that he heard a voice behind him, but here he turned to see the voice, a remarkable thing, and then he tells us what he did see. I mention things in this order for the sake especially of the young ones, because they are the coming generation; one generation passes away and another comes; that is going on constantly, yet the Lord at the very beginning of the dispensation said, "Surely I come quickly". We have to understand that. It was said to the eunuch, "Understandest thou what thou readest?" we have to understand the statements of Scripture. So the Lord said, "Surely I come quickly". If He had said that 1800 years ago, He meant that certain things must happen. He is under

the Father's orders in a sense, but nevertheless personally equal with the Father; that is ever to be stressed, that divine Persons are equal. This eleventh verse is in mind, and it is intended to affect us as if it was said today. It is to cause us to be on the alert, to be doing things that should be done, doing them at once and doing them well.

As John undertakes his task, he says, "I turned to see the voice". There may have been many things on the horizon that might have diverted him, but he was not diverted; he turned to see the voice, and what he saw was similar to what Isaac saw when Rebecca was coming; instead of noting that Rebecca was coming, Isaac, we are told, saw the camels coming. So here, what John sees first are the candlesticks. Isaac saw what carried Rebecca, and John saw that in the midst of which the Lord Jesus Himself was; namely, in the midst of the golden candlesticks; in other words, in the midst of the assemblies; that is where He is. The Lord Jesus speaks about it as regards the service of God saying, "In the midst of the assembly will I sing thy praises". You may say, 'I can praise God anywhere'; but He says, "In the midst of the assembly". Let us understand that, and let us be ready to join in the song. "In the midst of the assembly will I sing thy praises", shows that in the Lord's mind, the assembly is essential. It was not essential to the creation primarily, nor even to the creation described in Genesis 1; not even angels are seen in the work in Genesis 1. God Himself said, "Let there be light, and there was light". God did it; in truth it was the Lord Jesus. I say with joy and glory, that the Lord Jesus is said to have created all things and "without him not one thing received being that has received being"; and so John does not record any assistance, as it were, in the creation. But when we come to the assembly, then persons are

brought into the divine economy in which the Father and the Son are operating, as the Lord says Himself, "My Father worketh hitherto and I work". Then presently the apostles were brought in, they too were workers, and we are all brought in, every one who has the Holy Spirit is brought in.

John was brought in in a peculiar way, as I said, so he says, "I turned to see the voice", and what he saw was seven golden lamps or candlesticks and "in the midst of the seven lamps one like the Son of man". As there the Lord is now intent on an operation which is described throughout the book and He is taking the saints with Him, the assembly is with Him. There may be things He does alone, I quite admit that, but in general the position is that the saints have part in the divine operations, and that is what John saw, "seven golden lamps and in the midst of the seven lamps one like the Son of man, clothed with a garment reaching to the feet". How marvellous these verses are! and John says, "And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead; and he laid his right hand upon me, saying, Fear not". I have already touched upon it, and I am sure the Lord would dispel from our hearts every kind of fear; instead of that the word is, "Fear God". "Fear not those who kill the body and after this have no more that they can do". Although the cities may be wiped out, as men speak, yet after that they have no more that they can do. "Yea, I say to you, fear him", that is, God.

Now John says, "When I saw him I fell at his feet as dead; and he laid his right hand upon me, saying, Fear not; I am the first and the last and the living one: and I became dead, and behold, I am living to the ages of ages, and have the keys of death and of hades". In approaching this wonderful book in this way through the servant whom the Lord is pleased to signalise by causing him to write

it, our minds are disabused of fear: we are to rest in the knowledge of God. "Who is he that will harm you if ye be followers of that which is good?" We are to train ourselves, and so face the situation as it is, full of anxieties to the natural man, but none for us, we are to be without fear. And so the Lord says to John here, "Fear not", and then He tells him why he should not fear, saying, "I am he that liveth and was dead; and behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death". Sometimes we hear men say they have visited the dead. They are just lying; for it is not true. The Lord Himself has the keys of hades, which is the place of the dead at the present time provisionally; and of death, which is the final place. Will He give the keys to these wicked men? These so-called scientific men think that they can find the dead, the wicked dead, and it may be, assume they can speak to them! These things are diabolical, they are just lies, and we are to disabuse our minds of such things so as to be without fear. The Lord lays His right hand on John and says to him, "I am he that liveth and was dead; and behold, I am alive for evermore". Then he says, "Write ..." He says to John, I am about to employ you, and I wish you to write according to My direction.

Now I pass on to chapter 3, just to show how this matter spoken of in verse 11 is reached, and I want to leave the brethren with this verse at the close of this remarkable time we have had. We are to hold fast what we have; "hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown". The Lord is, as I was saying, implying that we are not to be robbed; not indeed that we are to put things under lock and key, so to speak; that is not the idea. We are not told what the crown is that is alluded to. We were saying today that the saints themselves at times are called crowns, and there is no suggestion

of their being hidden or concealed; they are to remain in the activity of love, and that is why they are called crowns. Any one of us could be a crown to the Lord Jesus or even to the saints; Paul says to the Philippians, "My brethren, beloved and longed for, my joy and crown". In addressing the assembly in Philadelphia the Lord Jesus calls Himself the holy and the true; the Lord Jesus is naming Himself thus. What thoughts to be in our hearts, holiness and truth! He says, 'I have the key of David', as much as to say, I am ready to attribute to you refinement spiritually, not worldly refinement, but refinement spiritually, that is what we get in Philadelphia. And so the Lord here refers to David, saying, "These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth and no man shutteth; and shutteth and no man openeth". The whole book has to be read in order to get at the thought of the Spirit of God as to David, and to see what characterises him.

The very best suggestions as to refinement are found in the Lord Jesus, they are found in the saints too in principle, because of the Spirit of God being in us. So He says, "I am the root and the offspring of David, the bright and morning star". Our hearts should be thrilled with these thoughts, they are sobering and glorious, and they are also applicable to us, for we belong to the Lord Jesus, we belong to the assembly. So He says, "I Jesus ... testify these things to you in the assemblies". He is dealing with the greatest things, and that is what I wish to impress all with. He says to Philadelphia, "I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an opened door". He has done it already, and it is for us to enter in, for it is a door "which no one can shut". None can interfere with the Lord, He has almighty power. So He goes on to assure us that we are able to have to do with these matters,

and He says, "because thou hast a little power;" it is but a little of the real thing, but again, "and hast kept my word"; not My commandment, but My word; that which opens things up for us and illuminates us; "and hast not denied my name". Life is in that Name, but many other things; salvation and all the matters relative to the service of God are in it. So that while we repudiate all mere officialism and clericalism as not of God, we revere the name of Jesus.

In Hebrews 8 Jesus is said to be "a minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man", meaning that He has charge of all that. The Lord Jesus is Minister of the sanctuary; He is a priest according to John 6. Peter says to Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast words of life eternal; and we have believed and known that thou art the holy one of God"; that is to say, He is the Priest of God, He is in charge of all the services and perfectly, infinitely capable, so He is the Minister. "We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens"; He has power and right to do it, to set Himself down as "a minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man". And so here He would address the assembly at Philadelphia, which is the assembly viewed as marked by love, for Philadelphia means love, and it stands for the whole assembly in the Lord's mind, and He is saying to them in a confidential way, "Thou hast kept the word of my patience", and again, "Thou hast a little strength and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name". These are the things He attributes to us to encourage us, that we might not be afraid to go on. That is the principle governing all this and the Lord is with us to support us so that no one should take our crown. I am not telling you what

it is; I cannot, though I may have my impressions, but it is "thy crown". We are all of the assembly, let us hold to the thing, hold fast what we have. To further encourage us, He says, "Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee". The Lord is saying this to the assembly in regard to these wicked persons who are agents of the devil, who say they are Jews and are not, but do lie. He is urging us by all that, so that we may be sure that we do not lose our crown. We are to go on in the energy of faith according to what the Lord apportions us, and to work with our might, and thus we shall go straight into glory like a ship going into harbour in full sail. Then He says, "I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth". We are not to come into the great tribulation, that which will come upon all the earth; we will not be in it, the Lord will save us out of it. All this is in keeping with the previous verses; so that we may be sure that our crown is not taken away; we are to hold fast what we have. "Behold, I come quickly; hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown".

I cannot say any more, but I just leave these matters, for I think they are most important. We are to go forward according to what we have. We are to add to it, of course; the Spirit of God is doing it, raising up men to do it, and let us hold fast what comes to us through them, and the Spirit of God will guide us into all truth, we can rely on that. He will take up this and that one, properly qualified, but He will guide us into all the truth.

May God bless the word to us all.

OVERCOMING

1 John 5:4, 5; Revelation 12:11

I have in mind to speak about overcoming. John, of course, tells us more about it than any other New Testament writer; he presents it as in Christ, and as in Christ it is magnified indeed. He said to His disciples, "I have overcome the world", and the thought is that He leads in all these matters. In the gospels the Spirit presents to us what goes beyond the present dispensation, for they present Christ Himself as here. What He was, indeed, cannot be confined to any dispensation, and so in reading the gospels, we have to bear in mind that much in them alludes to a coming dispensation, whereas the epistles are generally restricted to the present dispensation, and to what is current at the present time, in ways and thoughts and words suitable to Christianity; suitable to heaven, of course, but suitable to Christianity. This is true especially of the epistles of Paul, who employs terms and gives suggestions that no other apostle or scripture writer does. Thus in him the idea is set out of a special vessel, not only a special worker or apostle or evangelist; not only a special brother, he is that, of course, but a vessel; "an elect vessel", as the Lord said of him. In him we find the ways, the words, the thoughts and ideas of a Christian. The name Christian was an irregular one when first used. It has to be understood in connection with the work of Paul and Barnabas when they toiled for a whole year together, as you might say, in heaven's best employ. We have set out in them the idea of a Christian, and that idea runs down to our day, no doubt greatly magnified and ornamented in human thought, as the Spirit of God has used and portrayed it so much; thus it should be understood as designating a heavenly product, that can be called

Christian. Peter employs it, although writing to Jewish exiles, and he says to them, "if any man suffer as a Christian", not as a Jew, but as a Christian, and it meant suffering to be a Christian. When Agrippa said to Paul, "Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian", Paul's reply was that he himself was that, but he wished that all that were there including Agrippa were that, were Christians; that they should be as Paul, "except these bonds". He did not wish anyone to have them, and clearly the idea of overcoming was there in Paul.

I have read from John's epistle to bring out this thought of overcoming in relation to Christianity. Christianity is not comparable at all with any human sect or system on the earth. It is a heavenly product and the Spirit of God glorifies it in those who are Christians and who as such are overcomers. Hence John in the verses read, says, "Whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world; and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?" These verses speak of overcoming, and also give the way of it, the facts that lead to it. The thought that all that has been begotten of God overcometh the world, alludes to the generative power of God; not simply that one is born anew, or born again, for that is not quite so advanced in the work of God; new birth is basic, and without it nobody can be a Christian, nor an overcomer, but more is needed and that is included in the term, "born of God". There are many who regard the thought of "born again" as if it meant "born of God", but it is not that, it is not quite so far on as that. Persons in the millennium will be "born again". Indeed, without new birth we can have no part or lot properly in divine matters, but John in his epistle is dealing with more than that.

He is the evangelist who especially deals with new birth, but here he is speaking of "born of God". Peter also speaks of it, but John alludes much to it, and therefore those who would seek help and guidance as to the fulness of the truth should refer to John. Many are content with what is short of the fulness of the truth. John, in speaking of the Lord, tells us of His fulness, that is, of Christ's fulness, and no-one should be content with less. So here John says, "whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world". The idea is what is new as to birth, but what is implied is persons, not merely material. In the gospel (chapter 3), the Lord says that no-one can see the kingdom of God unless he be "born anew", but we have more than that here, and the better translation says, "For all that has been begotten of God gets the victory over the world". Much has to be said by way of expansion, for John is abstract, as has often been remarked, which means that he is saying some things and leaving out other things which could be said. Whatsoever here implies much that could be said, but the abstract idea is very brief, as intended, so that many may be included; indeed all that are born of God are included. It is a very wide and comprehensive thought and a very blessed thought, for Christians are outside of the things in the world and superior to it.

Now the next statement is that "this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith". I am speaking of what John makes much of, for he speaks much as to overcoming, particularly in the book of Revelation, of which I shall speak in a moment. The word is used there many times, firstly in every epistle to the seven assemblies. They had seven letters written to them, and in each letter there was a special word to the overcomer and much promised by way of reward. The Lord speaks of Himself in the seventh letter, saying, "I also have

overcome and have sat down with my Father in its throne". The Lord is tonight on His Father's throne as an Overcomer, and He is saying that this is open to us. The honour of sitting down with Him, not on His Father's throne, but on His own throne, and that throne is future. He is not sitting on it yet, but He will sit on it, and we shall join Him on it, and hence the greatness of the suggestion. The word in John's epistle is, that "this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith", and then he says, "Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?"; so that the passage goes on to a very concrete matter. It is addressed to all persons who believe that Jesus is the Son of God. But the idea of faith is the first thing. It seems to be set down for us as the first great thought in overcoming. I say the first great thought, because it is so here, and believers are to understand that, in overcoming, there is this idea of being "born of God" -- not simply "born again", but "born of God". Then so as to amplify that and clarify it, we have, "Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?"; that is a great presentation of the truth.

Although "our faith" is mentioned before, I refer to it, so that the brethren will all be revived in their interest in what belongs to us; it is our faith. It is not what is called a creed or religion of which there are many, but it is faith, not faith in the sense of what a person may have, but faith in the sense of the truth held in faith, and that, of course, applies to Christianity. It singles out Christianity in the way in which I have spoken about it, that there is nothing comparable with it at all as a system. I say system, for it is a system; and the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are operating in it systematically; the saints are taking part in it too. God

has worked on the principle of system from the outset, from the creation, and so in Christianity, and in Judaism too, as He will in the millennium, and among the nations. All will be on the principle of system originating with God. Faith belongs to Christianity, not simply to Christians, but to Christianity, and it is characterised by faith, "our faith", and it has overcome the world. You may say that there is little evidence of it, but the little that there may be is included, and even though it were only one person the thing would be established, but there are many more. Not that I am assuming to know all the brethren here, but thank God they are here, and I am here with them, as among them. It is another matter to assume to know them, although we shall know each other in heaven, dear brethren; that is the thing to look forward to. "I shall know according as I also have been known"; that is a very precious thought.

Now I go back to what I was saying about faith. It is a thing that applies to Christians, and makes Christianity what it is. It refers to the faith period as coming into the world. It did not come into the world properly until Christ came into manhood, and coming here He was "the leader and completer of faith" (Hebrews 12:2); not indeed that it was not there before. It was here, hence we get it depicted down the line from Abel, but at the same time the Spirit of God says, "Jesus, the leader and completer of faith"; so that we have to look to Him, and learn from Him. He says, "Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me; for I am meek and lowly in heart; and ye shall find rest to your souls", Matthew 11:29. So faith is to be learned from Christ. It is a universal thought in Christianity, and this is the dispensation of faith, as Paul in writing to the Galatians says, "faith having come"; that is, when Christ became Man and inaugurated the great idea

of faith; it is now an established matter, the Spirit of God maintaining it here on earth. If there were no faith, there would be no Christianity.

When the next dispensation comes, it will be a sight dispensation, and everything will be seen then, but now everything that is of God is to be understood by faith. That which is seen is not faith, but that which is not seen is eternal, and so faith links us on with what is eternal. Although we shall not need faith in heaven, yet it links us on with eternity, because it is the element of faith that makes everything real, but what will be by sight in the future is now by faith. We are designated a heavenly people as discerning things by faith, and hence the word is, "this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith". Our faith, not what a person might have himself, of which we are told in 1 Corinthians 13, "faith, so as to remove mountains". There is not time to explain that, but that is to be understood, that one might remove mountains by faith, yet, if one has not love, he is nothing. He could not be less than nothing. He is nothing at all spiritually, even although he have faith to remove mountains. I say that as calling attention to what Paul says, and that we might not be aiming at doing great things or exploits, but rather being governed by faith and by love. Faith working by love is the practical idea of Christianity. But the faith mentioned in this verse, "our faith", is not simply that some of us are believers, but that there is such a thing as the faith, which is Christianity, known as a system of truth, but known by the Spirit and understood by the Spirit; it is a system of truth, because the truth is to be held as a whole. The Lord Jesus is said to be the truth; the Spirit is the truth, too, but objectively the idea is applicable to Christ. He speaks of Himself thus in connection with other things, saying, "I am the way, and the truth, and

the life". These three things are applicable to Christ, who is the truth. Thus the faith is the complete thing, the whole, not simply that I have part in it, for, of course, we know in part, but the Lord tells us that the Spirit will guide us into all truth.

The dear brethren would do well to take it to heart, not to settle down even in any known or well established doctrine, but to see that we hold things in a vital way, as maintained by the Holy Spirit, for the Spirit is the truth subjectively, even as Christ is it objectively. What I would seek now to make clear is that this passage, in 1 John 5:4, this "victory that overcometh the world, even our faith"; that is, the faith which we enjoy, which we come together constantly to look into, to speak of as the truth, is superior to anything in the world. The world is in mind here, and the victory is while we are here in the presence of it, and it is superior in the sense of power, the power of God, power in Christ, and in the saints. That we have the mind of Christ is a wonderful fact, and assures the intelligence, the power of thought that enters into this victory. What I am saying can only be seen when the faith is held as a whole, and held in a spiritual way, as a complete system of truth. Paul says that it was given to him to complete the word of God. I do not say that what Paul says is all, because the Old Testament is also involved as well as the gospels and other writings of the New Testament, in the truth, and matters of the faith include all these. These are things in which one would seek to be practical, not to be speaking over the heads of the brethren, but that all might follow, that our consciences and hearts might be affected by these things; that we might understand the greatness of the system with which we are connected, not only the system as formed of persons, but the system as formed by truth, and that truth is eternal. Christ

is it, but the Spirit makes it real to us; we are living in it, it is a complete thing, and it is greater than the world. That is what I want to urge on the brethren. It is greater than the world, greater than all that is seen, greater than all that men assert as to science. Our faith is greater than all that. All else will disappear, whereas the truth will stand, and now it is held on the principle of faith. It will be held presently in the millennium on the principle of sight, the Spirit will be there too, but not on the same level as in the assembly. Those on earth will be on the lower level, but Israel, of course, will be on the highest level in that system; this is seen in the 144,000 with the Lamb on mount Zion; they have the power in themselves to learn the new song which the harp-singers sing before the throne (Revelation 14).

Well, that is what I understand by the verse in John's epistle, "the victory that overcometh the world"; but then the next verse is the concrete expression of it in persons, in any one of us. The question asked by the apostle, by the Spirit of God, is "Who is he that overcometh the world but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?" I want to ask that question of myself, and I want all the brethren here to ask it of themselves, to see whether we really believe that "Jesus is the Son of God". No doubt most of us would subscribe to it, because Scripture is so plain about it, but we want to have it in our souls on the principle of faith. "Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?" That is what marked Paul almost at the outset of his career as a Christian he preached that Jesus was the Son of God, and he tells us that God revealed His Son in him. He revealed His Son to Peter, but to Paul it was to the end that he might "announce him as glad tidings among the nations", so that our souls

might be nourished and brought up in the gospel that Paul preached. That is all I have to say about these verses, and I pray that it will be simple and intelligible to all of us.

I proceed to the book of Revelation to show how these elements are used to overcome, not the world only, but the devil himself. One of the most remarkable things in chapter 12 is that the woman "brought forth a male son, who shall shepherd all the nations with an iron rod; and her child was caught up to God and to his throne". He is called a male son, which, of course, may be regarded as a redundant term, but the Spirit of God by it emphasises the idea of Christ's manhood as important and foundational as to His Person. So the chapter runs on to the overthrow of the devil, as it is said, "There was war in the heaven; Michael and his angels went to war with the dragon. And the dragon fought, and his angels; and he prevailed not, nor was their place found any more in the heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, the ancient serpent, he who is called Devil and Satan, he who deceives the whole habitable world, he was cast out into the earth and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a great voice in the heaven saying, Now is come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ; for the accuser of our brethren has been cast out, who accused them before our God day and night: and they have overcome him by reason of the blood of the Lamb, and by reason of the word of their testimony, and have not loved their life even unto death".

These are wonderful verses, and I am not reading them because of their prophetic use, but rather to make clear to everyone how the blood of the Lamb, the blood of Christ, is used in our everyday life, our business life, and household life, in travelling, and so on. The blood of Christ is victorious

as it is presented here; "they have overcome him by reason of the blood of the Lamb, and by reason of the word of their testimony". It is the efficacy of it in redemption, so as to maintain our consciences clear before God and men and shelter them in the presence of the accuser. Our consciences are apt to fail us, save as we are kept in the full light and shining of the gospel. Paul says, "Because it is the God who spoke that out of darkness light should shine who has shone in our hearts for the shining forth of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ", 2 Corinthians 4:6. It is in that light we are victorious, because we use and understand the blood of the Lamb, the redemptive power of it is a real and known thing, and Satan cannot overthrow it; even if we fail that does not overthrow it. The point is, that failure should not overthrow our faith. God has set us up in Christianity and in the Spirit and I may add, in the assembly. God has set us up in Christ in that wonderful system, with light as to all that Satan can employ to discredit us, to cause us to fear as to our eternal salvation. The devil is bent on that sort of thing. The blood of the Lamb, and its efficacy understood will shelter us from the attacks of the devil. John says they overcame "because of the blood of the Lamb".

Then it says further, "and by reason of the word of their testimony". That is to say, the efficacy of Christ's blood has sheltered my conscience in the face of the devil's attacks, and has caused me to be restful in the presence of God, because I am connected with the righteousness of God in Christ; faith will tell me that, and I have overcome the devil by that light, by that truth that I carry about with me, not what I believe only, but what I have in my soul, in my conscience. I am invulnerable to his attacks. Peter says, "Resist the devil and he will flee from you". That is remarkable, and we have

to do it with the truth as it is presented to us according to the efficacy of the blood of the Lamb. I not only say that I am a Christian, but I have a word of testimony. That also is an answer to defeat the devil; what I can say in the way of testimony, as it says here, "by reason of the word of their testimony". One might add much to that because it is so great, the testimony of the truth by the power of the Spirit, rendered in the gospel, and so forth, going on all the time. I thank God for all that has been done in this way, in the meeting-rooms, hidden away from the public, and yet the Spirit of God actually having to do with the preaching there, and souls being converted and brought to God. This is going on day and night in the different parts of tile earth where real Christianity is, and where the gospel is presented. Paul said, "Woe is me if I preach not the gospel". Of course, Paul was a gifted man, but one often challenges one's own heart, and one hopes the brethren are challenging their hearts now as to what preaching is carried on, how much the light of the gospel is being proclaimed even in the little meeting-rooms and in the small companies. So it says here they overcame by "the word of their testimony". It describes what is presented now in hundreds of rooms all over the world continually, and that accompanies the idea of the efficacy of the blood of the Lamb, as it is proclaimed in the gospel.

A great deal more could be said as to the book of Revelation, especially as to the letters to the different assemblies; in each one of them we have the idea of overcoming and a reward is promised to every overcomer. I trust that the brethren will look into this book, and see how full it is, and how it is intended to help us in this terrible time in which we are living, for we are living in a terrible time politically and that is not all, for worse things are to come. The book of Revelation is full of the

things that are to come, and it is not a sealed book. It is a book written at the direction of the Lord Himself by John the apostle. It is written in sections under three heads, and if we look into these carefully we will understand. One is speaking much about the book of Revelation, so that we might see how the overcomer is referred to there specifically. It is as if the Lord has in mind, that all that enters into Christianity is available to the saints in each assembly. The furnishings are all there, and the Lord is telling us that He knows they are all there. We also know they are all there, and almost every real Christian knows that they are all there; that the provisions are there, that the power for overcoming alluded to is there, not only the blood of the Lamb, but other things are recorded so that each one in the assemblies should have the idea of overcoming and should overcome. And then the Lord alludes to rewards. "As I also have overcome, and have sat down with my Father in his throne". We are to sit down with Him in His throne, the Lord's own throne, that is our outlook; the Lord would encourage us by it, and help us to be overcomers in view of it.

I commit the matter to the brethren, to our souls and consciences, for overcoming in view of sitting down with the Lord Jesus in His own throne, when He shall rule, for God "hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained".

May God bless the word.

JOHN THE BAPTIST AS MODEL

John 1:19 - 27; John 3:22 - 36

I have read these scriptures from John's gospel in the light of the fact that he is said to be the disciple whom Jesus loved, and also in the light of the further fact that John the baptist is a special one in the mind of John the evangelist. I am sure that John the evangelist, whom Jesus loved, in his turn regarded John the baptist particularly as one to be respected, one upon whom he could bestow peculiar distinction.

We learn from these facts that in the divine circle there are favourites, and so John the baptist affords John the evangelist the opportunity to speak of one, as I might say, of these favourites. The Lord Himself bestows peculiar honour on John the baptist, and I speak of him now in this way in view of what is current in the world, and how important it is to have the truth set out, not simply in words, but exemplified in Christians. The Lord, as I said, bestows much honour on John the baptist, saying that there was not one born of women greater than he, and saying further that, if they would receive it, he was Elias. So there is the idea in Scripture of personification of one saint by another. John the baptist is seen as representing Elias, and I am calling him now to the front especially in view of current conditions, and the need of meeting them; and if they have to be met, they can only be met properly by those who have the Holy Spirit. It is not simply a question of brethren talking or conversing at tea-tables, or the like, or even of what they may think, or what has been said, but what we say! If we undertake to say anything, it should be in an orderly and responsible fashion. And so the Lord makes inquiry as to what men said about Him, the Son of man; not what they thought, but what they

said. After asking what men said, He makes inquiry from the apostles, His disciples, as to what they said on the point, Who is the Son of man? And one was able to speak immediately, and with authority, and with feeling, and with effectiveness, and thus we have on record the great facts of the foundation of the assembly, against which the gates of hades shall not prevail. These are great and wonderful facts.

Now we have before us John the baptist, this remarkable vessel who is introduced almost immediately by John the evangelist, the gospel-writer. He says, "There was a man sent from God, his name John". Much had entered into that name. His parents' friends and neighbours would have had him named Zacharias, but his father, who had been disciplined for nine months by being caused to be dumb, made his first pronouncement as he asked for a writing tablet, saying "John is his name". Whatever the meaning of the name John it was prophetically announced that it was the name of this man. John the evangelist speaking about John, says, "There was a man sent from God, his name John". Words are not wasted in the Scriptures; they are just sufficient, suggesting that we have what is needed. The Spirit of God employs words according to what is needed, and so here it is stated that John was "a man sent from God". That is a very great fact, and I do not hesitate at all to say that there are such men today, men who are sent from God. I do not point to anyone, for there are many. I speak of a great fact, that there are men "sent from God;" not angels, but men. Although angels have power of speech and are employed by God on the most important errands, yet John the evangelist says, "There was a man sent from God, his name John". In the book of Acts, which has a great place in the divine records, we read that

"the crowd of names who were together was about a hundred and twenty". Those names were real, and each had a meaning, and on that account the names are mentioned. They had names and there was a crowd of them, as if they were all great enough to be distinguished as saints by themselves as they will be in heaven. I have no doubt that each inhabitant of that celestial scene will be designated by his appearance, by what he is, not simply by the name acquired, but by what the person is.

In Acts 1 all were there because of what they were, and that idea was seen in Peter. It was he that answered the Lord, by saying, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God", and the Lord designated him by saying, "Thou art Peter". "Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona, for flesh and blood has not revealed it unto thee, but my Father who is in the heavens. And I also, I say unto thee that thou art Peter". The Father had spoken, and now another divine Person is speaking to Peter. "I also, I say unto thee, that thou art Peter, and on this rock" (that is, on the Lord Jesus, for the rock refers to Him) "I will build my assembly". The Son of the living God is the One designated as the foundation of the assembly. And so it is in that connection that Peter's name came out, and the Lord said, "Thou art Peter", meaning that he was that; 'a stone'. In John 1 the Lord said, "Thou shalt be called Cephas". But in Matthew the word is, "Thou art Peter". That is very current among us, and perhaps well known, but it is well to have it before us as to names.

Having said all that, I come back to those scriptures that were written in regard of John the baptist. He was a most distinguished man, as I have said, and particularly because of the distinction the Lord Himself put upon him. How humble John was! He was equal to the moment, and it was a great

moment, a wonderful moment. The Messiah had just come. The Son of God had appeared, and John the baptist was there, and was able to give an account of the Son of God, saying, "I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God". That is a great matter, dear brethren, to have in our souls and to be able to say, "this is the Son of God". That is, the One amongst us, it is not said that, but this is the Son of God. As believers, He is ever with us. "Lo, I am with you alway", is His word to us. So that we may say, 'He is constantly with us'. Someone may say, Well, He went to heaven, but Matthew does not say that. Mark, Luke and John say that, but Matthew does not. Matthew would assure us comfortingly that the Lord is with us today. He is with us at this very moment. "This is the Son of God".

There is another noted man in this gospel (chapter 9). The Lord met him after He had opened his eyes, and said to him, "Dost thou believe on the Son of God?". That is a question one would ask every Christian here, every person present, tonight, "Dost thou believe on the Son of God?" That is the great testimony of John the evangelist, and the testimony of John the baptist too, and so I put that question, and I leave it with you, with each one of us to answer. "Dost thou believe on the Son of God?". I have said on the Son of God; but if I say in the Son of God, that would raise the question of finding out who He is and what great possibilities there are; but believing on Him means that He is the great Object of faith. We are living in the faith period, and so the thing is to have faith, to be in faith, the faith of the Son of God, believing on Him. This is the urgent burning question of the moment, for the truth is denied all around, and if not denied then it is not confessed! There is very little difference between people denying and not confessing.

It is not so bad, of course, to refrain from confessing as it is to deny, but still the difference is not very great. If we do not confess the Lord we are in a critical position! The Lord says, "Every one therefore who shall confess me before men, I also will confess him before my Father who is in the heavens", Matthew 10:32. We are to be victors, confessors; that is the idea. The man in John 9 was a confessor; he was a confessor of the Lord Jesus Christ as the Son of God. The Lord says, "Dost thou believe on the Son of God?" and the man says, "Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him?". He was ready. The Lord answered, "Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee. And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him". Notice that, he worshipped Him!

As I said, as regards names, John the baptist's name is full of renown, and John the evangelist makes much of him. No other evangelist makes so much as John, of John the baptist, and he does it in order to bring out thoughts as to the Son of God. The current conditions abroad permit of things being said that evidence that the truth has been given up. In the world generally, great reverses have taken place as to the profession of Christianity; great nations have fallen, and great cities have fallen, great societies, too, have fallen, and what is going to replace these? How much there is being said in the world that is antichristian, and we are here today as Christians, as believers on the Son of God, and our business is to seek to counter those things; to counter them with the truth. That is the point we should have in mind; and not simply the truth as it is put in the creeds, but the truth as we are taught it by the Spirit of truth. The Lord Jesus is referred to at the beginning of this gospel as Teacher and He is alluded to as Teacher at the end of it, and in this connection it

is on my mind now to say a word as to current conditions, and how they are to be countered by those who love the Lord, by those who have the Holy Spirit, and really they are the only ones worth reckoning on in this matter. I would not despise anyone professing Christianity, but in the matter I am dealing with now, the only ones worth mentioning are those who have the Holy Spirit of God, those who love the Lord Jesus, and I might add, who love the truth, as John again says, to the elect lady, "I rejoiced greatly that I have found of thy children walking in truth", 2 John 4. It is a question of the walking in things as well as the saying of them.

In the passage read in chapter I of John's gospel we learn that the Jews sent from Jerusalem priests and Levites that they might ask John. "Thou, who art thou?". The Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to him. You will see that this gives weight to my point. Those Jews, whoever they were, in Jerusalem, sent to John the baptist; they sent to John. I am stopping now to explain that what I had primarily in mind in reading these verses is the statement of John in chapter 3. We are told there in verse 26, "And they came to John and said to him, Rabbi, he who was with thee beyond the Jordan to whom thou barest witness, behold he baptises, and all come to him. John answered and said, A man can receive nothing unless it be given him out of heaven". That is the word I had in mind particularly, "A man can receive nothing unless it be given him out of heaven". If I refer to current conversations, talks, speeches, magazines and newspaper articles, all of them, I might say, and all that is expressed in them, can be received naturally; whether one be a politician, industrialist, an educationalist, or a medical man, what is current in the world in the way of teaching and of prime importance is to be received and compassed by the ordinary

man's mind. In saying this I am endeavouring to call attention by contrast to what should be in the minds of Christians, what is to be in our minds, not to say our affections, but our minds. God has given us minds, He has given us the Holy Spirit! A greater fact! Now the word of John the baptist is, "A man can receive nothing unless it be given him out of heaven"; that is, a man can receive nothing except from God! That puts the whole matter where it should be. Heaven has precedence over the earth. Indeed, John says, "He who has his origin in the earth is of the earth, and speaks as of the earth. He who comes out of heaven is above all". Heaven has its own rank and importance in this sense.

In chapter 1 the Jews sent to John, to ask, "Who art thou?". What were they sent for? What was in their minds? The whole matter raises the question with us, and what would we do? What would any one of us answer if put in such a position? What would the worldling do, if he had such opportunity? What would we do if we were just simply ordinary men, with natural ability, ability such as could make us shine in this world, what would we do? If governed by earth, we would say to ourselves, What an opportunity! The leading men of the day have sent messengers to ask me, "Who art thou?". Well, I must let them know about my ancestors and my education, and my means. I must bring forth everything that is to my credit humanly, and put it in the answer, hoping that this will bring me some distinction. You see, dear brethren, in speaking thus, I desire to show how we are tested in this way every day, and we are tested as Christians, and the test brings out whether we are governed by heaven or earth. If we are governed by heaven, we answer even as John did in chapter 3, "A man can receive nothing unless it be given him out of heaven". Now, where are we as to those matters? If all

earthly distinctions are ruled out, where am I? I shall have to explore heaven, because "A man can receive nothing except it be given him out of heaven", and so heaven is the place of origin of each matter that is of value to ourselves as Christians. Heaven has its distinctions to give, its honours to proffer. I hope that the dear brethren will be moved inwardly as to this matter of what heaven has to offer! John is nobly victorious in this test, and that is why I have touched on it so freely.

From the beginning, John acted nobly, as it says, "And he confessed and denied not". He was the first to confess it to another. As walking in truth one has joy in another's confession. Not denying is additional, as confirming that he is the victor from the start. He is confessing the truth as to himself, and not denying it in any way. So it says of him, "he confessed and denied not, but confessed, I am not the Christ". Distinction is one of the things the natural man would grasp at. How many have grasped at being something in this world religiously, but John confessed, "I am not", and denied not! He gave no opportunity to anyone who sought to draw him into the thought of honouring himself, or making himself something, in this world religiously. When I say religiously I include the dear brethren that are now here along with myself, because we are apt to aspire to be something; but John confessed and denied not. He gives no occasion for anyone to say that he aspired to anything. And so the narrative goes on, "Art thou Elias? And he says, I am not. Art thou the prophet? And he answered, No. They said therefore to him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to those who sent us. What sayest thou of thyself? He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness". One is reminded of Balaam, when the king of Moab sent messengers to him, with the proposal to glorify him, to add to him

in every way. The prophet seemed proof against it for the moment, but really at the bottom of his heart he was hoping that he would obtain what the king of Moab offered. Not so John, "he confessed and denied not". And so, dear brethren, if we have any aspirations to acquire distinction in a human way among the brethren to whom I am speaking, John's answers are a model for us. If we aspire to anything in the way of distinction according to man, John's way of escape is simple. His answers are remarkable. These priests and Levites continue, and they say, "What sayest thou of thyself?". They did not enquire about his forefathers; not a word about them; nor about his father, nor about his mother, and he is not going to say a word about any of them, whoever they may be. We are all easily led into making much of these things, ancestry, education, or anything that makes much of us. That is the intention of the devil, and we are to be proof against it. John was proof against it.

So it says, dear brethren, that the inquiry made of John is, "Who art thou, that we may give an answer to those who sent us. What sayest thou of thyself?". He answered, "I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the path of the Lord, as said Esaias the prophet". They that were sent were from among the Pharisees, and they asked him further, assuming, we may suppose, that they were a distinguished people, as belonging to a distinguished sect. They asked him, "Why baptisest thou then, if thou art not the Christ, nor Elias, nor the prophet? John answered them saying, I baptise with water. In the midst of you stands, whom ye do not know, he who comes after me, the thong of whose sandal I am not worthy to unloose". Now, dear brethren, I am just leaving John the baptist at this point for your consideration. How nobly he met the temptations of the enemy in the attempt to

make much of him, and again I say, we are all exposed to this temptation, even amongst those with whom we are walking, exposed to the desire to be distinguished in the service of God, but John is a noble testimony to us against it. He is not led away, but is superior to the temptations of the devil.

Now I go on to the third chapter of John, so as to bring out how John is again tested, not now by the Pharisees, but by his own disciples. "There was, therefore, a reasoning of the disciples of John with a Jew about purification. And they came to John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he who was with thee beyond the Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold he baptises, and all come to him. John answered and said, A man can receive nothing unless it be given him out of heaven". John did not say this in the first chapter. He is saying it now, when his own people, those who were interested in him are around him, and they are saying to him that the Lord Jesus to whom he testified is now baptising even as he. Although we are told in the next chapter that the Lord did not Himself baptise, but that His disciples did the service, here it is said that He is baptising. They are saying this to John, but he is proof against any suggestion of rivalry.

I have spoken of ambition in relation to oneself, but now I speak of rivalry, even amongst our brethren. The things said to John were intended to promote rivalry between him and the Lord Jesus, that is, in the heart of John. How proof against all that is John the baptist, and so he says, "A man can receive nothing unless it be given him out of heaven". John has heavenly thoughts, and he goes on to say, "Ye yourselves bear me witness that I said, I am no, the Christ, but, that I am sent before him". I want you to notice, dear brethren, what John was occupied with in the midst of this atmosphere of rivalry. He says, "He that has the

bride is the bridegroom". There is only One who has the bride. We do not want to rival Him, nor do we want to rival each other, but John brings in this rich and holy thought of the Lord's possession of the bride; the richness of what belonged to Him; that is "the bride". The Lord is drawing our attention peculiarly to the idea of the assembly as the bride; and John brings this in in what he says. In bringing this in at this particular juncture, John the baptist shows that he is outside the range of rivalry. His language plainly tells us that, as he says, "He that has the bride is the bridegroom; but the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices in heart because of the voice of the bridegroom". I would rather be joyous thus than in possession of the greatest gift, for gift in itself will not make me joyous. The Lord makes us joyous. The Holy Spirit sheds the love of God abroad in our hearts to make us joyous; the greatest gift will not do that.

I speak with warning now, not that I am aiming at anyone, and would bring before you John as an outstanding example of one superior to temptation, and specially the temptation arising from rivalry. John is enjoying the voice of Christ, and is completely delivered from rivalry if there was any need for it in him. He says, "He that hath the bride is the bridegroom". John the baptist does not tell us who the bride is. Paul does. John the baptist speaks of the voice of Christ the Bridegroom. What a theme, dear brethren! What deliverance from rivalry and pride and every other thing that goes with the natural man! What a deliverance! The joy of Christ's voice brings deliverance. John the baptist goes on to say, "but the friend of the bridegroom ..." That is a great matter. We do not speak of ourselves as friends of the Bridegroom, but as friends of Christ. The Lord Himself tells us,

"Ye are my friends". We are His friends; that is a delivering element in these matters.

But then I am speaking of what John says: "the friend of the bridegroom who stands and hears him rejoices in heart". John has enough power inwardly to stand as he does. We already know from the first chapter how firmly John stood, and now these are his own words, "the friend of the bridegroom who stands and hears him, rejoices in heart, because of the voice of the bridegroom; this my joy then is fulfilled". What can anyone do to decoy John into rivalry, to draw him into it. He is too satisfied. He is settled. His mind is fixed. His joy is full. I am speaking freely of this great subject, because John is not here, and John the evangelist is not here, but their testimony remains. We are here today, and I am speaking in order that we may be moved in regard to this matter, in regard to the Bridegroom and the bride. The Bridegroom's voice, the voice of Jesus, what it should be to us, how it should cause us joy, satisfying joy, for that is really the effect here, the satisfying joy of which John speaks. He says, "This my joy therefore is fulfilled".