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"BEGINNING" (1)

Genesis 1:1 - 25

J.T. One has thought of the idea of beginning. It may sound somewhat cumbersome as a subject, but it will show itself in time. It is in mind that we might have right terminology in our conversations; that the terminology may be intelligible and that the brethren may be on the alert to understand; for much is going abroad that is, to say the least, not clear in the sense of ministry, and the hope is that these meetings will help in the sense of clarity and in the sense of intelligibility as to Scripture; so that there may be freedom from mere novelties, and that we may be able to speak as the Bereans, who would search the Scriptures to see if these things were so. The thought is to carry the idea of the beginning; first as to Genesis 1 -- the beginning of things, the creative side, leaving man out; for the idea of 'things' carries down through the ages and enters into doctrine, constantly added to, but still the basic things are carried through. Then it is thought the second reading should have man in mind, especially seen in Genesis 2; and in later meetings the idea of the beginning in John's gospel and John's epistle. "That which was from the beginning" 1 John 1:1. Other features may open up as we proceed. Man is left out of this our first consideration, and, of course, we would all feel that the subject must be incomplete and it will be incomplete, for we have to learn in part. And so it is thought that we should confine ourselves to the things of creation in this first reading and then in the second reading to bring in the great thought of man, especially in chapter 2. There may be necessary enquiries in order to indicate the completion of the subject, but it is hoped we shall be able

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to limit ourselves to the passage read. As already said, we learn in part and there can be no doubt that God has this in mind in these readings; the remarkable interest there is among the brethren as to the Scriptures and scriptural subjects, and how we are able to go on with these readings and increase our learning, for the great intent is to learn. Learn something, whatever it may be, for our gain on each occasion. Learn in part, but learn. And so we have to consider the chaotic condition that is indicated in verses 1 and 2 of this chapter and see how light came in. "But all things having their true character exposed by the light are made manifest", Ephesians 5:13. The first day, therefore, has to be considered as clarifying the whole position.

S.McC. Is it necessary to go back to the beginnings in order to get clear in our minds as to things? The Lord said in the gospels regarding a particular matter that came up with the Pharisees: "but from the beginning it was not thus", Matthew 19:8.

J.T. Well, I think that is good; and what has to be added is that the beginning is not an inscrutable matter. A beginning in itself is not an inscrutable matter. Certainly the beginning of things is not inscrutable, and so we have to consider what is in mind in verses 1 and 2. These first verses are inscrutable. They contemplate, of course, what God made. "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. And the earth was waste and empty, and darkness was on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters". So that before we reach our brother's suggestion we have to touch a little on the inscrutable. The beginning in itself is not inscrutable, but God is. But when we come to the New Testament it will become more apparent that the beginning here is left. We cannot enter much on it, because it is left in chaos. Therefore, we have to seek to bring God

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into it, and see how in coming in He sheds light, and how the idea of beginnings is there and it must enter into all the created things; they became enlarged obviously as time went on, but we have to begin with the roots of things and see how they work out in the doctrine and ultimately in the doctrine of christianity.

A.R. Why does John start his gospel as Genesis 1 "In the beginning"?

J.T. There is a very great difference in the phraseology. "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth", whereas in John it is, "In the beginning was the Word". It is inscrutable and infinite, and of course, better left until we come to it properly. But we can see the great difference between the two passages in that in John 1 it is a Person of the Deity. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God". But now we are dealing with things; that is to say, God's creation of the heavens and the earth, and that chaos had come in; therefore the need for the introduction of the positive side. Verses 1 and 2 leave us in a chaotic condition.

S.McC. In relation to what has been said as to inscrutability entering into these earlier verses, do you have that in mind in relation to God in His personal existence or in relation to things? In what way are you referring to inscrutability in these opening verses?

J.T. Just in the sense that God is alluded to. The footnote to the word "God" reads '(Elohim, the plural of Eloah, the Supreme. It is Deity, God in the absolute. When other divine names, except Jehovah and Jah, are used, they will be indicated)'. And then we have indications of the terms. But we are just left here with the simple thought of God, but we are not to rest upon that. It immediately carries on in the rest of the chapter to the thought of what He

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does, what He created. And thus we come to material things, and they are not inscrutable; they are knowable.

S.W.P. Would the word in the book of Job help us in connection with this question? "Hearken unto this, Job; stand still and discern the wondrous works of God". And then later on in the chapter: "The Almighty, we cannot find him out", Job 37:14,23.

J.T. Well, it helps as to what happened in the years that followed what is here.

S.W.P. "The Almighty" not being found out would be inscrutability, but the works of God are what is seen?

J.T. That would involve a further period of time. That is to say, the knowledge of God came into being, and people had been learning. I believe that Enoch is the first one to indicate to us that the learning time had come; and of course, Job lived many years after. The flood intervenes and much else, and what we get as to Job has to be fitted in there, but not with the first verses, all indicating a period much further on than this first section.

S.J.H. Does Isaiah give the divine intent: "Thus saith God, Jehovah, he that created the heavens and stretched them out, he that spread forth the earth and its productions" Isaiah 42:5, and also, "For thus saith Jehovah who created the heavens, God himself who formed the earth and made it, he who established it, -- not as waste did he create it: he formed it to be inhabited" Isaiah 45:18. Is that the intent of God?

J.T. Quite. Much had intervened and the prophets come into that. Moses comes into it and others. The time of learning had come. Men were not slow; there were some who learned, but many did not. Enoch did. No doubt he represents persons able to learn.

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A.N.W. Is the use of the word 'supreme' in a way relative and should we realise that the absolute Person is behind that appellation?

J.T. Quite; the Supreme must be supreme to something. It is a relative term, but even 'God' is to be regarded as relative in a certain sense. At the same time, the idea of relativeness and abstract must be understood if we are to get anything out of our enquiry. God Himself is not relative to anyone or anything. He is abstract; He is entitled to be that; whereas as soon as He creates or has things to be in relation to, then He is relative.

S.McC. In the note Mr. Darby points out: '(It is Deity, God in the absolute)'. Is the use of the word 'absolute' there the same as you have used in recent times in referring to absoluteness in relation to God?

J.T. I do not think so. The word 'absolute' is abstract really. He is absolute to something. I mean, the reference is that; it is the Absolute to something. I do not remember that I ever used the word as we now use it in recent times. We have to get the idea into our souls of God "... dwelling in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen, nor is able to see", 1 Timothy 6:16. We have to learn to use these words and in some sense understand their application, and thus the idea of relativity in each as in touch with everything.

A.B.P. The introduction into Scripture of the great thought of inscrutability in the Deity is to rouse our hearts in worship in view of all that has been done.

J.T. Quite so; in the sense in which we are able to take it on. God begins with us in great patience. We have just seen that He leaves out the idea of naming certain things, especially Satan. The time will come when it is brought in in fulness.

A.B. Is there something in the fact that the word

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'created' is only in verse 1? It comes in again in relation to the sea monsters; after that we get the word 'made'. Is there something in that for us?

J.T. There is; the word as to what God blesses comes under that heading. He blesses the fishes and the fowls which would indicate that He is in relation to life, even in the creation. That is, sea monsters, fishes and fowls and the like -- He is in relation to that. They are something He is pleased with and something that He blesses. In verse 22 we get it for the first time: "God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply on the earth". Now the thought arises there as to what became of the fish, and yet they have a great place in the instructive part of Scripture. They are not especially mentioned in regard of the flood, and yet they went through. There must have been something in the mind of God in regard of them in view of the flood. They would be carried through because they have a great place in the Scripture later.

C.H.H. What is the difference between God known in the absolute and in the abstract?

J.T. Well, the word 'absolute' has a meaning, of course, which involves relativity, but 'abstract' does not. The word 'abstract' is simply that He is not in relation to anything but Himself. 'Absolute' and 'abstract' have not just the same significance. The idea of absoluteness comes into relativity. If absolute, it is absolute in relation to something.

Now coming back to these six days, which are our subject, leaving the chaotic conditions which we are entitled to do -- God would not detain us, although He touches it in the prophets, but what He leads us to immediately is light. "And God said, Let there be light. And there was light. And God saw the light that it was good; and God divided between the light and the darkness. And God called the light Day,

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and the darkness he called Night". So now we are in a position to speak of the darkness around us and the need to keep clear of it and live in positive things in the realm of light; not spreading out too much but confining ourselves as Scripture does, to the beginning, the idea of light.

S.W.P. Is there a difference between this light and the lights as in verse 14 and the great lights in verse 16?

J.T. The idea of light is what we have just read. "And God said, Let there be light". In later references, we come down to things called lights, but the truth is the word as light appears. We do well to stop with the first day and see how far we can go; see how far we can accustom ourselves in dealing with things that refer to it in a limited way; learn to be limited when necessary. We are not to spread out when it is not necessary.

J.H. In your prayer you spoke of the lack of clarity in what is ministered, giving the clue to what you had in mind in this scripture. Have you in mind that each of these days has a feature that might well characterise the ministry?

J.T. Well, quite so. We are to learn to limit ourselves to any given time or thing; just limit ourselves and not be extravagant in speaking of it. We often become extravagant and lose the full sense of it. It becomes too big, bigger than it was intended to be. We are to learn to limit ourselves.

R.H. Is that why the beginning and introduction of evil is not dealt with here?

J.T. God does not plunge us into evil. He does not even name Satan. If we were teaching children we would be simple about it and begin with good things, positive things, lovely things: "whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are noble, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are amiable, whatsoever things are

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of good report; ... think on these things", Philippians 4:8. Certain things we can think of restfully.

C.A.M. The darkness and waste is mentioned because we have to approach the great question of light in a relative way.

J.T. Enlarge on that, please.

C.A.M. The question in my mind is the reason this matter of waste and empty and darkness is brought in before we have this great matter of light, and I was asking whether this is because of the way our minds will apprehend light in contrast to darkness.

J.T. We are not able to. It is the infinite side of things, and we are not required to dip into things beyond us. The time will come for dealing with them profitably, and we then will not be damaged by them. These things are just left and immediately we proceed to what is positive. "And God said, Let there be light. And there was light". We have already alluded to it: "And the earth was waste and empty, and darkness was on the face of the deep". Well, we cannot say much; the best way is to leave that. The Spirit of God says, "And God said, Let there be light. And there was light". We are in a wonderful realm in the word 'light'. He is not using lights but light. The word in the plural is used later, but not yet. We have to learn to rest in light; so the word in John's epistle is: "But if we walk in the light as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another", 1 John 1:7.

C.H.H. I was thinking of the term in Timothy: "unapproachable light" -- that would not connect with Genesis 1.

J.T. Quite so.

C.H.H. Do we distinguish between created light and uncreated light?

J.T. We are coming to a difficult point, because the origin of light is God. Therefore, it is difficult to use the word 'uncreated' in that sense; although it

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is used. God is light; that is a cardinal truth. We cannot limit that to any creation; it is God.

J.W.W. Would you link faith with light? "By faith we apprehend that the worlds were framed by the word of God", Hebrews 11:3.

J.T. Yes, I would. That leads into more than we are seeking at the moment. I allude to Romans 10 to clarify that point. We are now dealing with faith, the relation between light and faith. "So faith then is by a report, but the report by God's word", Romans 10:17. We ought to come back to what was said as to the relation between light and faith.

J.W.W. I wondered if the principle of faith would be the light of God coming into the soul, so we could lay hold in a simple way, receiving what God has set out in His word. Is that right?

J.T. That is just what is said here. Faith comes by a report. Many of us may have in our minds that it is the act of God. Faith is the sovereign action of God; something is done by God sovereignly. So faith is there, it has to be there in the soul. But we are now linking on the word. That is one of the things instrumentally that God has in dealing with all these matters in creation. He has the instrumentality of dealing with them, and the instrumentality is the word, His word. And so in these verses we have read, "But they have not all obeyed the glad tidings. For Esaias says, Lord, who has believed our report?" Romans 10:16. That is, Israel -- what Isaiah says of them. And then the apostle goes on: "So faith then is by a report, but the report by God's word". So that we have to think about these scriptures, both by Paul and by Isaiah and then in the scripture before us, where God comes into it. God says here. We have that in verse 3: "And God said, Let there be light, And there was light". God says something and when He says something there is light; something has happened.

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R.H. According to 2 Corinthians 4:6 there is the added thought of God shining. "Because it is the God who spoke that out of darkness light should shine who has shone in our hearts for the shining forth of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ".

J.T. Quite; that is an allusion to this very passage. But we are speaking now of the idea of faith, and what part light has in it. It would seem as if before we can have things from God, that His word must have an entry. And He says something here: "Let there be light". Let us confine ourselves to what is here. We are dealing with the first day, and it is a question of light and it comes in by the word of God.

S.McC. The idea of 'the word' introduces the moral side in connection with us in that way. While faith is the sovereign gift of God, the idea of 'the word' introduces the moral side in relation to us.

J.T. That is good. In the gospel service we have to bear that in mind, but we want to bring God in in our dealings with men. Men are in darkness; we are dealing with a dark situation. We must bring God in; and if God is coming in, it must be by His word.

A.N.W. The report is one thing, but God's word behind it is another.

J.T. Quite so.

E.G.McA. Does not this first chapter occupy us with God rather than what the different words mean? "God said, Let there be light". It is God we are occupied with.

J.T. That is the marvellous side of it; that in gospel service or any service we are in, we are to avoid novelties and bring God in; say something about God and bring Him into this. We have it here: "God said", so that we have God coming in.

N.B. Do we not have to distinguish between the

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physical light, if it is correct to use such a term in connection with this scripture, and the moral light of God in our souls? In John it says, "God is light" and here, God saw the light.

J.T. The two things are combined as someone has said in 2 Corinthians 4:6. This chapter combines the two. This very passage is spoken of in that verse, and that is the moral side; "... who has shone in our hearts for the shining forth of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ". We come down to the moral side -- the most beautiful side of things -- in the face of Jesus Christ.

J.K.P. Does the apostle bring this before the saints at Corinth in the opening of the epistle -- the thoughts of God as to them? But they are just mentioned; they are not opened up yet. The state was not there for it.

J.T. The state of things at Corinth was not such as could be opened up to. The apostle is dealing with state as to overcoming it; but then the state is not absolutely dark at Corinth; it is simply poor light, poor shining, for there was some light there. And that is how things are now in Christendom; there is some light, but it is becoming increasingly dark and the question is, therefore, how to get God in. The question now is whether we can go on and not stay too long on one day, because we have six to deal with.

F.N.W. Is it significant that God Himself calls light Day and darkness Night?

J.T. He did it Himself. There is no one else there at the time. Later Adam does it and God delights in that. We have come to Adam saying things. God is Creator and loves to see His creatures, what they are and what may come out in them. And so we have to confine ourselves to one thought; that is, God. The second day refers to the expanse. We have to content ourselves with a little bit of one

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thing, but it will give us some light as to the next thing, and the next thing is the expanse connected with the beginning, too; the opening up and widening out, and yet not much said as to that. God is not pleased with it; He is not saying much as to it. But it has an interesting side. The exclusion of Satan and anything of his doing is remarkable.

J.H. What is in mind as to this dividing on the first day?

J.T. It comes out on the first and second day. It is an element we need all the time. We need to divide things. So Timothy says, "... cutting in a straight line the word of truth", 2 Timothy 2:15, putting things where they belong, but especially dividing light from darkness. If we have to do with mixed marriages, then we have to deal with such matters and put things in their place.

E.A.L. Would this dividing between the waters be like the dividing between spiritual wickedness and what is of God in the spiritual sense? I was thinking of Ephesians 6"our struggle ... against spiritual power of wickedness in the heavenlies". There is a division between that and what is of God.

J.T. Just so. "God saw the light that it was good"; as if He rests in that for the moment. "And God divided between the light and the darkness". That is, God is saying it must be so. These two things must be; but we must make much of light and very little of darkness. "And God divided between the light and the darkness. And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night". He gives a name to it. So that we will have to use it later in dealing with divine things, when dealing with darkness and light. We are just, so to say, getting a clear retrospect of the whole matter; so that when the Lord takes up the man twice it says that "he saw all things clearly". We are dealing with things now. And we want all to see, so that we

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see matters with good sight, so that we can trust what we see. If we have not got good sight we cannot be trusted.

J.B. Does God use Abraham in regard to that in Genesis 15? He knows what to do in reference to the sacrifice -- certain things are divided and others are not.

J.T. It is really the understanding of the matter in Genesis 15, meaning that we have now arrived at the time of the subjective order of things. Abraham arrives at that time, the time when God can speak of things subjectively. So God leaves these things to him. It is a matter of taking certain things which he is told to take, but then he does things without being told, meaning that he is learning. Genesis 15 is the first time we get the idea of the word of God. It would take a whole meeting to go into that. We can just pause for a moment at that side and then go on to something more. We have to go back to the second day and see what it means, what the matter of the expanse means; what a wide idea it is.

J.McK. Does the idea of the expanse suggest a sphere in which God will operate for the bringing in of all these things He is speaking of in view of learning of Himself?

J.T. I would say so; you need everything if you are to get a true perspective. We get the description of everything in these six days, the divine thought, and we must hasten on to get them all.

A.R. Does the second day involve our eyes -- how far can we see?

J.T. Just so.

R.R.T. This matter of divisions coming in so early with God too, would be a great matter in our lives, as to how we can divide between matters in our local settings; divide between this and that in administrative matters.

J.T. Almost every locality has these problems.

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Almost every locality has some kind of problem that it cannot get over, and perhaps the difficulty is we do not see all things in relation to it. So here the man whose eyes the Lord opened saw all things clearly. It is a matter of clarifying things. It may be we are hindered because we do not take in everything entering into the thing.

L.E.S. "But when he is come, the Spirit of truth, he shall guide you into all the truth", John 16:13.

J.T. Just so -- all the truth. Very beautiful. The Spirit of God is here and we may be looking for a clarification of everything now as in view of the Lord's coming.

W.L. Each day is a new beginning, you may say. In that way, is it intended to have a moral effect upon us?

J.T. It is. You feel the need of the moral side all the time. So it is we begin with the first day of the week and how much comes up on the Monday and Tuesday. And so now we come to the second day. We have already made a point as to certain things being left out. "And God said, Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it be a division between waters and waters. And God made the expanse, and divided between the waters that are under the expanse and the waters that are above the expanse; and it was so. And God called the expanse Heavens". He did not wait for Adam to come and name it, but He Himself does this, and then it says, "And there was evening, and there was morning -- a second day". Let us see what is left out.

Rem. He does not say 'Good' of the second day. It is the only day of which it is not said.

J.T. God does not call it good. We have to search; there is not time to search now, but one of these days is not called 'Good'. Of others God remarks that they are good. Why is this one omitted?

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C.A.M. I think you have said God waited until He put the sun there, referring to the greatness of Christ?

J.T. I would say that; the fourth day settles the matter. It is a question of Christ in the heavens. God has made Him both Lord and Christ. That clarifies so much; everything must come down from Him because He is in the position of administration.

R.W.S. There is no suggestion of the expanse in verse 1. Is this verse something added to that? "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth". Now there is a division between waters and waters. "God made the expanse, and divided between the waters that are under the expanse and the waters that are above the expanse". Is that not an additional thought as to what was in the beginning in verse 1?

J.T. There is a great deal in that fact because of the place water has in the second day. We know how essential water is to us. Presently there may be no such need, as we are conscious of love. What would we do without water? The quantity God has placed on the earth. He can take it up by a certain means He has in His own hand. You do not see how God does that. And it comes down again; and in coming down it expresses His goodness to man. What would we do without rain? So we have the incident as to Ahab -- how the heavens were shut up for three years and six months and then again opened too. God has a means in this second day of telling us of His goodness.

C.H.H. In the book of Job it says God reserves the rain for mercy and discipline. That would be the waters above the expanse.

J.T. Job gives us a lot of help on those points.

R.R.T. However good the waters may be, to get the gain of it we have God coming in and dividing

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them. Is it in the division that we come into the gain of it?

J.T. It is in the blessing of the thing that we get the good, because rain does come down undoubtedly. We can see the Lord is helping, as He will help as to terminology in the ministry, that we know what to say and how to say right things.

A.B. Would these days be in the mind of Elihu when he rebukes Job and his friends? "Let days speak, and multitude of years teach wisdom", Job 32:7. He takes them back to the beginning in relation to God.

J.T. That is to say, it is connected with men of experience and what advantage they are to us. And that is what Elihu made much of. He recognises the old men, but they had to listen to a young man, too, and they did.

W.McK. In relation to terminology, would you say why God names all the creations of the first three days, and then after that leaves Adam to name? God sets an example, would you say, and the animals' and fowls' names are left to Adam?

J.T. That is very good. I am glad you mentioned that. There will be an enlargement of it in chapter 2, because we come to Adam in chapter 2, Adam active. Now we are dealing with God active in these three days. This matter of the expanse we can just leave. We see how necessary it is; and we have to ponder upon things in a creative sense, and see how important this day is in the government of God. It seems to be an additional thought to the first verse: this word 'expanse', the dividing of the waters, seems to be an additional thought. And we can see how useful it is in the use of the waters, and what God can do with it in the expanse. And then it goes on to the waters under the heavens. We have touched that already. "And God said, Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together to one place, and let the dry land appear. And it was so. And God called the dry land

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Earth, and the gathering together of the waters he called Seas. And God saw that it was good. And God said, Let the earth cause grass to spring up, herb producing seed, fruit-trees yielding fruit after their kind, the seed of which is in them, on the earth. And it was so. And the earth brought forth grass, herb producing seed after its kind, and trees yielding fruit, the seed of which is in them, after their kind. And God saw that it was good. And there was evening, and there was morning -- a third day". Now we come to the operations of God in the sense of producing food and all else in the sense of vegetable life.

J.W.W. Is Paul's speaking at Athens to correct their terminology? They had an idol to the unknown God, and Paul in his witness brings home the first part of Genesis to their minds.

J.T. He does more than that. He brought the gospel into it, but in a limited way.

W.L. Does verse 12 suggest response to the word of God? "And the earth brought forth ...".

J.T. Just so.

A.N.W. If the heavens in verse 8 are further than the heavens in verse 1, would the earth in verse 10 be an advance on the earth in the first verse? "And God called the dry land Earth".

J.T. Possibly. There is an increase in the new thing because it is a made-over thing. We have to bear in mind that verse 3 begins with something that had an existence before in some sense and is now being remade. The expanse is a new thought. God has certain operational things in His mind. "And God called the dry land Earth, and the gathering together of the waters he called Seas". We are in the presence of creation. The Spirit of God called it a creation. It is not the idea of made or remade; it was creation; although it was remade. We may as well view it as a creation and we have to see the

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difference in it and see something that was not there in the beginning. So the thought of grass, the beautiful thought seen in the New Testament, too; "God said, Let the earth cause grass to spring up, herb producing seed, fruit-trees yielding fruit after their kind, the seed of which is in them, on the earth". And so now we are in the presence of life, life coming forth yielding what is needed among men; it is given to man for food.

H.B. What is the force of the use of the word 'cause'?

J.T. The earth is able to do something. We are touching the idea of life in a limited way; life in a vegetable sense, and there is power in it. You could split a rock with the power that is in it, showing the idea of power in creation comes into the earth in this sense and God can use it beneficially but He may use it harmfully, too.

C.H.H. Hebrews 6 speaks of the earth which receives the rain and brings forth food. That would be beneficial. I was wondering if that would not bring in creation in a harmful way when it says if it does not bring forth fruit it is nigh to a curse.

J.T. All that enters into what we are saying. We are to lay ourselves open for great things, to be opened up to us, but we have not time to go into it. We have three days and only three hours each day and much has to be done; so it is a question of what God can do.

J.H. We have the features of power and freshness and variety seen in life in its simplest sense.

J.T. We are dealing with much that is necessary to us every day of our lives; these things that are going on in the earth, and then we come to the lights. What wonderful things open up to us. In verse 14 it is a question of light. That is what God is. That is, the main thing is settled, you might say, in these three days. And then these lights are additional,

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going over the ground again, so to say. And then the fishes in the fifth day and the cattle on the sixth day. We must just limit ourselves to the time we have. We have to go over all this in these three days and this is what we have to deal with, so we have to go on, and we have to see that lights are set in the heavens. Then there are the two great lights which God made. Is not God calling our attention to the beautification of things and how illumination comes into it? He is the Father of lights, James says; not of light, but lights, as if it is God coming into it and having pleasure in it. There were many lights in the upper chamber.

C.A.M. Does that bring in the family idea? It is not only the ordinances in the heavens.

J.T. Just so; the Father, the Son and the Spirit, all involved.

C.C.T. Is the earth in view in regard of these lights? "And God said, Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens, to divide between the day and the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days and years; and let them be for lights in the expanse of the heavens, to give light on the earth". Is the earth in view in regard of this?

J.T. Well, indeed. God saw what was needed was this one thing -- light, and not only light, but a variation of lights. And so we have, of course, to think of the position, the heavenly position, and the position on earth and the position in the millennium, too. We have to think of all these things and what lights may be involved in them. Now we have the light of the assembly in relation to the economy and we have to learn to make the most of it.

G.MacPh. Is the idea of new creation set forth; God coming into creation in a new way, so that He may be known?

J.T. What lights we have in the beginning of Genesis! The truth opened up in the sense of light

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or lights throughout the years. We have the dispensation involved after the flood and what light was unfolded in that. Then the patriarchal dispensation had much light, and the Mosaic dispensation, and the kingdoms. But nothing has been so clarified before. So that how rich the field is for us. How God is opening it up as we are restful and waiting upon Him. "The Lord will give thee understanding in all things", 2 Timothy 2:7. So in Luke 24, "He opened their understanding to understand the scriptures". That was in view of this dispensation. He can open our understandings.

J.A.P. Would the assembly come into the fourth day?

J.T. I would think that is so, for the assembly is seen in these lights -- the disposition of God in causing light to shine. The assembly, of course, is being reserved in the counsels of God for a long time, but now it has been disclosed according to Romans. When that is out, everything else is out. We have to get the truth of the assembly to get the whole truth. The whole truth as to the millennium and the eternal state is out when you get the truth of the assembly.

S.McC. So in 1 Corinthians 10 Paul is writing to the saints "upon whom the ends of the ages are come". I suppose every era or epoch really has a reflective bearing on the assembly in that way?

J.T. Quite so. What thoughts are there; how we have the key for the unfolding of the truth; the key of knowledge. You can go back and open the storehouses and David comes in in that way in his ministry with the number twenty-four to show how things are dispensed departmentally, and so God comes in so that we might learn how to come into it, and He opens our understanding to understand the things that are in that store.

C.H.H. Would the psalmist have that in mind when he says in Psalm 19, "The heavens declare the

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glory of God". The assembly does more than declare it; she has it in Revelation 21. She comes down as having the glory of God.

J.T. "The heavens declare the glory of God; and the expanse sheweth the work of his hands", Psalm 19:1. What did you have in mind?

C.H.H. The glory attached to the assembly.

J.T. We come back to the assembly actually in the heavens now, because Ephesians contemplates that we are made to sit down in the heavenlies in Christ. We can go back and see what Psalm 19 discloses as to the heavens. The Lord Jesus is seen there as a Bridegroom going forth from His chamber and rejoicing as a strong man to run a race. We can see the beauty of all this because we have the key of knowledge and we can open the Scriptures.

A.H.P. How do you understand the stars here? We have three subdivisions, sun, moon and stars.

J.T. He makes the stars also. That brings ourselves in. "They that are wise shall shine as the brightness of the expanse; and they that turn the many to righteousness as the stars, for ever and ever", Daniel 12:3. "Star differs from star in glory", 1 Corinthians 15:41. The individual saints are in view, I believe, especially at the time before the Reformation and immediately after it. There may have been the darkest period and yet there were luminaries, stars to be seen.

S.J.H. In Philippians it says, "... among whom ye appear as lights in the world", Philippians 2:15.

J.T. The Philippians were up to it collectively.

J.W.W. The stars shine in the night. Would they be as the two witnesses in Revelation 11?

J.T. Just so. The whole of John's ministry opens this up, making way for individuals, for power in individuals, for light working in individuals. I believe the whole period right on from the Reformation is in mind, and light in the earth would seem

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to be in mind. We are not left without some light.

C.H.H. "For star differs from star in glory", 1 Corinthians 15:41. That would refer to personalities, whereas the heavens declaring the glory of God would refer to what is collective?

J.T. That is good. "For star differs from star in glory". That is an individual thought.

R.R.T. Is the thought that rule is not so definitely connected with the stars. "And God made the two great lights, the great light to rule the day, and the small light to rule the night -- and the stars". That is, the matter of rule is emphasised with the great and the small light and then there are the stars.

J.T. And therefore with Paul in the shipwreck, the stars did not appear. And they had a terrible time; no light at all to navigate by.

S.J.H. Would this bring in the principle of authority in relation to Christ and the assembly and the gifts?

J.T. I would think so. The stars afford something in the way of guidance. They are a feature in the great system of truth; something to go by, to navigate by, because Paul comes in in that sense. I do not know much of the idea of navigation, but I can see the stars must be of great value, for even when there is no sun or moon displayed, when he sees the stars the navigator can tell where he is. He has some idea of regulation, of the depth of the water, and so on. All these things have to be in mind as they help us to understand what is here, and what is to come later on.

C.H.H. All forms part of His universal testimony to all men.

Ques. Are all these exercises in view of clarity in such matters as these? God, as reference has been made, did not create the world in one day; He took six days. We deal with each matter promptly as it comes up in our local gatherings. Is that right?

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J.T. Well, yes; we learn in part as to how we use method. 1 Timothy helps us as to the younger men, how to learn, how to learn to divide up the Scripture; because there is an order in the writing of Scripture. We read, "Every scripture is divinely inspired, and profitable for teaching, for conviction, for correction, for instruction in righteousness; that the man of God may be complete, fully fitted to every good work", 2 Timothy 3:16, 17. Well, that is the principle; to learn in part things as they come; not all things at once, but to try and take the days as they come and use them rightly.

H.B. Is that why the apostle uses the word, 'outline'?

J.T. "Have an outline of sound words", 2 Timothy 1:10. Not all I hear, but sound words.

F.N.W. Is 'sound words' in mind in the expression 'after its kind', and 'after their kind'?

J.T. Yes; you can tell what kind people are; what is their real origin, and judge relatively. That is to say, you can go back in their histories, tribal histories. God has granted that idea in the way of what comprises humanity divided up in tribes. Some tribes are not affected by the truth; and you can tell what they are by what is said of them.

D.Macd. Sound words would be plain speaking. Sometimes statements have a double meaning. Sound words would not.

J.T. Just so. They are wholesome. Whatever a man says you are not puzzled by it. If there is light in it you would not be puzzled.

E.T.P. Would the outline of sound words suggest the need of a pattern as David gave to Solomon?

J.T. Just so, as in any leading man God has raised up from the beginning. He has raised up certain in the sense of leading men of God, and that comes down to our day. "Remember your leaders who have spoken to you the word of God", Hebrews 13:7

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Then we are exhorted to consider what they say. This is a very important matter, to consider men God has used. Even if they are gone. Thank God their writings remain and we consider them. So the sound words would come to light in these men; those marked by sound words that you can go by; you can trust them.

S.McC. In Acts 20 Paul reaches the climax of his ministry in relation to his service at Ephesus, and it says, "there were many lights in the upper room". The chapter would show the leading place Paul had in relation to the ministry in all that succeeds.

J.T. There were seven of them mentioned. They were in his company; that is, characteristically representing the work of Paul; and their names are given, and among them is a Berean. You might wonder why it says that; it is the word Scripture has for that kind; the kind of man needed at all times.

S.McC. Is it important in the matter of the dispersion of light there should not be division amongst us but co-ordination, as the stars in relation to the leading lights in the system of Genesis 1? These lights are in relation to Paul in Acts 20. There were many lights. Is that in regard of the dispersion of light in the ministry? I was thinking how the enemy would work on the line of divergence even in regard to the dispersion of light.

J.T. We should all think the same thing, the Spirit of God having His way with each. If you follow the facts, you can see He has a way with Him, taking up things and certain persons at certain times, and they have certain characteristics, and these characteristics are guides for us. So that if they have an established character we do well to bear that in mind, and not to ignore it altogether, and not to say so-and-so has too much prominence. Let us see what is there and what the history is. So that what we

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have is deepened according to the Spirit of God in each. Let us see what each one is in His mind.

A.H.P. "Canst thou fasten the bands of the Pleiades, or loosen the cords of Orion"? Job 38:31. Could we view ministry that is from God in that light?

J.T. We cannot bind it, but we are glad it is there. These things cannot be limited. They are there. So you are thinking of the sweet influences among the brethren. They will not mislead you.

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"BEGINNING" (2)

Genesis 2:4 - 25

J.T. As indicated already the thought is to look into chapter 2 in Genesis this afternoon. While we touched on the sixth day at our earlier reading, we did not complete the details. We ran on to the end of chapter 1. Indeed, the whole matter of the creation runs on from chapter 1 to the end of verse 3 of chapter 2, and then the second contemplates a new title taken on by God; a dual title really, the Lord God, Jehovah Elohim; meaning He had entered into special covenant relation with man. It is thought now that we should touch on the further part of the sixth day and then enter definitely on chapter 2 in which the covenant relation which God had taken on with man was contemplated. Chapter 1:26 reads, "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over the whole earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth on the earth. And God created Man in his image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them". Another thing is to be noted: that word for 'man' in verse 26 is somewhat altered; in verse 27 it signifies the Adam, the man. That is to say, that great creature had taken on definiteness in title. Thus we can understand chapter 2 which properly begins with verse 4 in which we have the word called 'history'. "These are the histories of the heavens and the earth, when they were created, in the day that Jehovah Elohim made earth and heavens". That is to say, the earth is taken up definitely as a creation and having a history. The word 'history' signifies origin, so that we are now

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introduced into more definiteness and more detail in the word 'origin' or 'history' of the heavens and the earth. It is hoped that we shall, with this in view, see more clearly what the creation of man signified and how it works out into knowledge, as we might expect; that God would introduce the idea of knowledge, especially in connection with man. The hope is now that we shall reach something as to knowledge. Men and women are to dwell with each other according to knowledge, according to what God has revealed as to the race.

C.H.H. In addition to the term 'create' we get the thought of being made and formed and built. Would the last three express skill?

J.T. I should think so; especially when you have the word 'built', pointing to the assembly itself.

S.McC. When you refer to God entering into covenant relation with man, just what is implied in that remark?

J.T. The word 'Jehovah' added to the word 'Elohim'. We noted already this morning that word for God. Chapter 1 commences with, "In the beginning God", the word is 'Elohim', meaning power, and the note says, 'Elohim, the plural of Eloah',the Supreme'. It is Deity in the absolute sense'. That is the primary thought, the creative thought really; the word denoting God in His relations with creation. But then the word 'Jehovah' is a covenant word and is drawn back, we might say, in the history from Exodus to introduce it in the beginning of Genesis so as to connect the thought of relation, of covenant relationship with man. It is dwelt on at length at the beginning of Exodus.

R.R.T. Would that illustrate what you were saying this morning, that God speaks of things in part to be taken up later -- the word 'Jehovah' being brought in here, but to be enlarged upon later?

J.T. Just so.

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A.N.W. Do you have any idea as to what was in Mr. Darby's mind in saying Jehovah Elohim and not Jehovah God?

J.T. It would be to bring us as near as possible to the origin, which is power. It is the plural of power, I understand. 'Eloah' would involve power. 'Jehovah' added to that would be to strengthen our minds in the whole matter, make men out of us. Of course, we see how it works out in later days when God takes on Abraham; that is, after the flood. He takes him on and reveals Himself to Abraham in that connection; the everlasting God. But then there was a further thought that He did not enlarge on until we come to Moses and that is Jehovah.

R.W.S. Has God still to say He waited a long time until man was brought on the scene? I understand from ministry, man is the most recent of the creations. Does that bear on God's affections entering into covenant relation with him as creating and forming him? All the years that geologists wish to bring in may be brought in between verses 1 and 2 of chapter 1, so that as you say, man is of a recent creation.

J.T. Quite; recent from the standpoint of verses 1 and 2. Indeed, we cannot say as to how long the time was. Geologists guess it. We cannot just be sure whether they know themselves but we do know that man is relatively a recent creation and it is in connection with him that the whole matter stands. And so as we remarked the article being placed before man is to call our attention to what he became in the mind of God, and the dignity attached to him; the man.

A.N.W. Verse 31 confirms what you say. While on almost every day the comment is made, it is good, on the sixth day when man was set there it says, "And God saw everything that he had made, and behold it was very good".

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J.T. Quite so.

R.H. Does the expression used in Peter's epistle -- "a faithful Creator" bear on this appeal of God's covenant with man?

J.T. That fits in with Peter's line of truth; the government of God.

A.P.T. Paul seems to have the idea in his mind in speaking in Acts 17. He has the whole thought of God in his mind.

J.T. We touched on that this morning and I think it is quite in order now that we should introduce it into our inquiry.

A.P.T. I was thinking of verse 23, "To the unknown God", and then, "The God who has made the world and all things which are in it, he, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands, nor is served by men's hands, as needing something, himself giving to all life and breath and all things; and has made of one blood every nation of men to dwell upon the whole face of the earth, having determined ordained times and the boundaries of their dwelling, that they may seek God".

J.T. That helps in what was meant. It is a remarkable address by Paul at Athens. It enters into what we are saying -- the place man has; the remarkable intelligence that presently shines out in him according to chapter 2. And so we have added certain thoughts in chapter 2 that we should not overlook, what was properly left out this morning, and that is the seventh day in chapter 2; and God blessed it. It is said, "And God had finished on the seventh day his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and hallowed it, because that on it he rested from all his work which God had created in making it". It is further enlarged on in Exodus 31. God was refreshed on the seventh

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day; one of the most remarkable facts we get. According to the written page it is not said He was refreshed in Genesis; it is said in Exodus and it throws light on the whole position as to the advance that had been made and is, indeed, constantly being made -- the advance in the relations of God with His creature.

Rem. Would man as having been created on the sixth day be the crown of God's creation? He had rest on the seventh day. It would be complete in that man was created.

J.T. Quite so. He rested on the seventh day. He blessed it and rested on it so as to bring the thing itself out; not the person but the thing. The word, 'day' being blessed is remarkable and no doubt leads up to what we have now; the first day of the week. But the seventh day was blessed and God had been refreshed on it to bring out the progress which was being made in God's relations with His creature. Not so much with His creature man but with the whole position, the whole creation.

C.C.T. Would you say this seventh day stands out by itself more than the other six? God had something for His own pleasure.

J.T. It does. He rested on it and was refreshed on it. It brings down in a touching way what God can be to us; how simple He can be with us and how He would set us in liberty with Himself. When we come to Exodus we come to the time of naming things officially and there is a responsibility attaching to the things.

J.T.Jr. Enoch being the seventh from Adam would be suggestive of what God found in him -- refreshment, coming out also in Noah?

J.T. It might enter into it. Of course, Enoch was not there when the seventh day was blessed but still God was looking at things from His own standpoint and Enoch would come into His mind undoubtedly,

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because it was a question of the acquirement of knowledge -- the knowledge of God and the relationship with Him. We, therefore, now must touch on the renewed or added thoughts as to creation in chapter 2. Verse 4 says, "These are the histories of the heavens and the earth, when they were created, in the day that Jehovah Elohim made earth and heavens, and every shrub of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew; for Jehovah Elohim had not caused it to rain on the earth, and there was no man to till the ground". So that we have certain negatives here in order to bring out positives and clarity. We have things mentioned here that have no existence at all except an abstract existence. That is to say, it is said, "and every shrub of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew". So that we have abstract thoughts here of a peculiar character and they are something we are to learn to use in dealing with the things of God. We have to learn to use them. We get a special allusion to them in Psalm 139; a special allusion to the assembly only in an abstract sense. That is to say, before it was really formed, it was there in the divine mind.

J.H. It says in Romans 4 that Abraham believed in the God "who quickens the dead, and calls the things which be not as being". Is that the same idea?

J.T. Just so; so as to clarify what has been said about Psalm 139.

C.H.H. Would not that correspond to verse 27 of chapter 1? "Male and female created he them".

J.T. Quite so, showing how God can speak of things. This passage in Psalm 139 is one of the most striking covering this point.

C.H.H. Would you think according to Psalm 139 that the substance yet unformed would be included in that verse 27 in the making of the man?

J.T. "I will praise thee, for I am fearfully,

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wonderfully made. Marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. My bones were not hidden from thee when I was made in secret, curiously wrought in the lower parts of the earth. Thine eyes did see my unformed substance, and in thy book all my members were written; during many days were they fashioned, when as yet there was none of them. But how precious are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them! If I would count them, they are more in number than the sand. When I awake, I am still with thee", Psalm 139:14 - 18. It is remarkable as indicating how the Spirit of God anticipated the assembly in an abstract sense, although it could not be spoken of at all and was not spoken of at all until it was made manifest, as Paul says in the last chapter of the Romans. But at the same time, we are instructed as to how things come out and should be ready for them and should learn how to think abstractly at times because God does it; especially in the first epistle of John.

S.McC. That would be particularly important on Lord's day morning in assembly service, learning to take account of ourselves abstractly so that God might be served according to the desires of His heart.

J.T. I think that is good; especially if the epistles to the Corinthians are in mind, because they deal with the public service of God, the public worship of God, and were it not that we have the abstract thoughts found there it would be difficult to carry on the service of God, because there is so much contrary in fact among the saints at times. As, for instance, in the second letter Paul says he had in readiness to avenge all disobedience when their obedience was fulfilled. He was ready to let matters stand that had to be dealt with until certain other things had happened. And so in the constitution of the assembly he begins the first letter saying, "The assembly of God which is in Corinth". And it runs on for about nine

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verses to speak of things that had taken place; that had been actually in Corinth only in an objective sense; not in a concrete sense but in an objective sense. There were certain things that were there and they are contemplated as there and their presence there enables us to carry on the service of God with a good conscience and at liberty. I will just read those verses to the brethren so that they may see how abstract things are there before they are actually in a sense present. In the first letter to Corinth, chapter 1, verse 4, it says, "I thank my God always about you, in respect of the grace of God given to you, in Christ Jesus; that in everything ye have been enriched in him, in all word of doctrine, and all knowledge (according as the testimony of the Christ has been confirmed in you), so that ye come short in no gift, awaiting the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ; who shall also confirm you to the end, unimpeachable in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, by whom ye have been called into the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord". That illustrates what has been said and is to be understood if we are to rightly carry on the service of God freely and happily even although there may be certain things still undealt with.

H.B. Is that confirmed in chapter 5 where he says, "according as ye are unleavened"?

J.T. I was about to refer to that. "Purge out the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, according as ye are unleavened", (verse 7). That is abstract.

R.H. Would the apostle have written to Corinth, were not the houses of Chloe and Stephanas setting out the thing representatively?

J.T. You refer to the house of Chloe. Someone had judged the thing, you mean. The position of the assembly is maintained in the sense that someone had a judgment about it.

R.H. They were unleavened.

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C.A.M. They would have to break bread week by week viewing the saints in a certain sense in an abstract way.

J.T. That is what we are saying. The epistles enable the saints to carry on the service of God by these abstract thoughts being there, being recognised.

S.P. Is it suggested in the matter of Balaam? God put His word in his mouth twice. It was an abstract word and then the Spirit of God came on him the third time as if God would force the abstract before him.

J.T. Just so.

A.N.W. When it says every herb of the field before it grew, that would have in mind that it would grow.

J.T. God can call things that be not as though they were. The question is whether we have ability to speak in that way and follow the divine mind in what is said.

C.H.H. Would the abstract thought be supported by the Holy Spirit being with them in Galatians? There is no redeeming feature there among the personnel but the Holy Spirit Himself being with them.

J.T. Well, the question is whether we should attribute the abstract to the Spirit alone, or whether as in Galatia and as in Corinth there is some formation there. I doubt that God intends the abstract to go as far as no formation. There is some formation in mind.

C.H.H. "God has sent out the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, Abba, Father", Galatians 4:6. That is different from Romans 8.

J.T. Our hearts are in action. The Spirit is using their hearts. Is that not so?

C.H.H. It seems so.

J.T. It is so, because the Spirit is pleased to use our hearts and that is in measure a concrete fact both

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in the statement in Galatians and in the epistle to the Romans.

A.P.T. In 1 Corinthians 6 the apostle says, "but ye have been washed, but ye have been sanctified, but ye have been justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God" (verse 11). Is that the same thing?

J.T. That is it; but the actual fact is stated there. They had been washed, they had been sanctified, but then we have to learn to trust God in His statements and limit the bearing of them.

G.MacPh. While you speak of the abstract thought, do you see the formation of substance in the assembly as being a vessel taken on by God?

J.T. In measure; it is a question of what there is; what God can say. He has His own way of saying things at times that we have to follow. But to come back to our scripture, the actual formation of man is contemplated in chapter 1 and confirmed in chapter 5, but we have to fill out the thoughts from chapter 2; just as in the book of Acts certain things have to be filled out that had not yet taken place in Acts 1 before the Spirit came. It would look as if God wished to have something there that could be called concrete before the Spirit came; something that would be needed to confirm the idea of the presence of the Holy Spirit. And so Peter's remarks or speech, as we may call it, in that chapter, mentions what was needed in view of the provision of another apostle; how it was needed and it came about before the Spirit actually came. And so here, before we have the actual formation of Adam we have the second chapter, as it were, the filling out of the position. The first and third might be carried on and the third might be added to the first. We should not have the concrete thoughts that we have in the second. They are mentioned to bring out the complete position; the position of man. He is formed

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first and he is formed before he is breathed into. It is not one action. His formation is one thing and the breathing is another; and then the idea of a real man that God had to say to before there was any woman. So the scarcity was in the feminine at first, and hence chapter 2 brings out the truth, although the first chapter mentions accurately that God created the man and the woman on the sixth day.

A.B.P. It brings out the benign glory of what God is in Himself. The idea of things evolving out of themselves would be refuted by scriptures of this kind. All these things were there and existing in the divine mind and thought before they were placed in certain positions.

J.T. God has His own way and has every right to have His own way, and if He reserves in His mind that the thoughts of the second day should come in, these thoughts do come in and the actual facts take place. Adam was formed out of clay and then breathed into by God before woman is made at all. She is made from different material in a sense, from her husband. He was purely made out of clay. That is the word used. "But a mist went up from the earth, and moistened the whole surface of the ground. And Jehovah Elohim formed Man, dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and Man became a living soul". That is what we have before we have woman at all. Then we have the thought of the need of her. The need of her existed and it existed in Adam himself, showing how complete the second chapter makes the whole position.

F.N.W. In the end of verse 4 the order is reversed. It is not heavens and earth, but earth and heavens. Does that follow your line of thought now, as coming from this great range of chapter 1, focussing our attention on the earth and what God has in mind in connection with man in it?

J.T. It is the material used; the environment in

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which man is set; what a being he was; what his capabilities were before woman came into view. That is the idea; to seek to be set up in the true knowledge of God so far in what He effected in man before woman came into being.

L.E.S. Would the words of the preacher in Ecclesiastes bear upon this: "one man among a thousand have I found, but a woman among all those have I not found", chapter 7:28?

J.T. I doubt very much that the preacher would allude to what we are dealing with in Genesis 2 in that. I would think he had a moral signification in what he said; what he had found in his experience. He had not found one woman; he had found one man, but he had not found one woman. It was in a moral sense.

L.E.S. I was wondering if the working out of this would be true -- how we really morally arrive at it.

J.T. If you deal with it morally you will have to come down the history, because for the moral side you will have to have the history, and the history that Solomon alludes to is not Genesis 2. It is not the fact of the non-creation of woman; it is that she was not there in that sense. There was none that answered to the mind of God in the feminine sense. That is what Solomon found. But I question whether that would allude in his mind to Genesis 2 because we are dealing now with actual creation; not exactly the moral side at all, but the actual fact of it.

R.W.S. It says in the end of verse 5, "there was no man", and in the end of verse 20, "no help-mate, his like".

J.T. That would be just the fact, the physical fact that there was not one. There was not even an Adam there as to physical fact. But in the passage we are reading now, that is to say verses 6 and 7, the formation has taken place and it could not be said there was no man when Adam was formed and

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breathed into; so that I think what is before us now is a question of the marvellous intelligence that comes out immediately as to that man and even entering into his terms as to woman.

S.J.H. When Paul speaks of the offspring of God, would it allude to this breathing in of God? He calls them the offspring of God.

J.T. I think so. Adam is said to be of God in Luke; the son of God in a way. So that what is said later on elsewhere, "we are his offspring" would allude undoubtedly to Genesis 2.

S.J.H. I wondered if the thought of the offspring of God involved the breathing into his nostrils the breath of life, and then Paul speaks of them thinking.

J.T. The thing is whether we should not distinguish between creation and generation. I think we should. We have not come to the idea of generation, and offspring means generation. It is an offspring from a Being, from God; whereas what we are dealing with is not that; it is creation. Adam was created or formed by God, and then breathed into. If we read into it the idea of generation we must bring into it the breathing. The breath of God made him live. So that I think it would be right to bring in the idea of generation on those lines.

A.N.W. While Paul quoted the heathen poet in his preaching, he spoke of the creative side.

J.T. That is important. I think we should learn to have terms in our speaking so that we can all judge what we say to each other. That we are God's offspring is a question of generation, and a question of new birth; not that Adam was born anew, but new birth implies generation. We are born of God; we originate from God; not that a person newly born can be said to be a child of God yet he is very near to it. John goes further than that in his gospel saying, "but as many as received him, to them gave he the right to be children of God", John 1:12.

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That is not simply because we are born anew but because we received Christ. That is to say, the full idea of the gospel, and that gives us the right to take the place of the children of God. We belong to that generation: "to those that believe on his name; who have been born, not of blood, nor of flesh's will, nor of man's will, but of God", John 1:13. That is the full thought.

R.R.T. That thought of being born of God in John 1:13 would come later than new birth that we get in chapter 3.

J.T. It would. It is the full thought in John's gospel: what is accredited to believers. That is only touched on now with the thought of having the thing clearly before us as we proceed, because we have very little time left relatively, and we want to get on to the full thought of chapter 2. We have brought in the thought of generation, because I think it is needed to see the full bearing of Adam's creation and his formation, and then the breathing. The breathing gives him the place of being of God.

L.E.S. Would you say a word as to chapter 5, the bearing of the generations? "Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created" (verse 2).

J.T. It is just to complete the history. Chapter 5 resumes the whole matter and links it all with Adam in order to bring out Enoch. Chapter 5 is the resume of what preceded it; so that we might see the place man has. It is just the brief reference to man's place in the day that he was created. "This is the book of Adam's generations. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him. Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created", Genesis 5:1. That sets the whole matter where it should be in the full history in chapter 5.

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C.H.H. Would the quotation in 2 Corinthians 5 fit in? "So if anyone be in Christ, there is a new creation" (verse 17).

J.T. It would in the sense of bringing us on to the full thought of new creation. In chapter 5 it is a very full chapter dealing with the subject, only it runs down in the chapter from our physical formation as in our bodies, as raised presently; our house which is from heaven -- our part in that.

A.N.W. In which chapter in Genesis would you place the "of God" in Luke 3? "Adam, of God" (verse 38).

J.T. "And Jehovah Elohim formed Man, dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and Man became a living soul" (verse 7). I would say that is where the setting is that Luke contemplates. He traces back the Lord Jesus to man, to Adam; and it is said that Adam was of God. You might say he was son of God in that sense.

A.R. Is that chapter higher than verse 27 of the previous chapter? Verse 27 says God created Man and in chapter 2 it says Jehovah Elohim formed Man. Is that greater than creation?

J.T. Maybe. The word 'creation' is a great word. It is sparingly used in our chapter because it is a very great word. It has an equivalent meaning to being born. They have equivalent meanings only I think the idea of birth is greater, morally greater. It brings us into line with the Lord Jesus, with man in Christ; not that He is born as we are, but "the only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father", John 1:18 is the same idea. We are not begotten in that physical sense as He is, yet there is a remarkable link between Him and ourselves. New birth places us in line with Him on the line of generation.

S.McC. It is interesting in that way that we could never speak of Him as being created. It would be blasphemy to do so, but the scripture does speak of

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Him as born. "The holy thing also which shall be born", Luke 1:35.

J.T. That helps us as to the need of care in using words. "The holy thing also which shall be born shall be called Son of God", Luke 1:35. We can never be said to be born in that sense.

A.N.W. So that the Son was given, but the Child was born.

J.T. Just so. Now to proceed with our thought, we have to come down. We have spoken of the environment in which Adam was set including the garden, that is, Eden, and going over down to the end of verse 17. Then we have the divine thought, "It is not good that Man should be alone; I will make him a help-mate, his like". That is God's proposal. In verse 20 it is said, "but as for Adam, he found no help-mate, his like". But the narrative proceeds from what God said. So it says, "And out of the ground Jehovah Elohim had formed every animal of the field and all fowl of the heavens, and brought them to Man, to see what he would call them; and whatever Man called each living soul, that was its name. And Man gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the heavens, and to every beast of the field; but as for Adam, he found no help-mate, his like". So the position is made very clear for us and I believe it is intended to be intelligible to us to have in our minds in dealing with doctrine later; what pleasure God had in man before the woman was created at all, and that gives force to what the apostle says as to the priority of man. He was not made for the woman but the woman for the man, and the man was made before the woman. All that is to enter into doctrine and our understanding of the truth. So before we have the formation of the woman we have all this said about Adam. What a wonderful creature he was and what pleasure God took in him to see what he would call the different creatures.

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A.B.P. Does that help us to understand in a certain sense the idea of the greatness of man? In the world today human life is very cheap. Are we entitled to regard man in this light at this time?

J.T. I think it is right that it should be in our minds what man really is. The cheapness with which human life is held is surely obnoxious to God and it is a question of the saints being with God in these matters and holding the line of the truth against all comers.

G.MacPh. Would man in this connection suggest something of the greatness of Christ as set out in the gospels, and the woman come out in the apostle Paul saying, "I speak as to Christ and as to the assembly", Ephesians 5:32?

J.T. Just so. What man is capable of, because he is a great creature: man is the image of God, Paul says, and we are to be concerned that we do not discredit Him.

Ques. Would Psalm 8 suggest your thought as to man?

J.T. "What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him"? We get that and some other psalms like it, and what we are dealing with now is to get knowledge as to the actual formation that we have in manhood.

A.R. What do you mean as to doctrine?

J.T. Doctrine is doctrine. How often we deal with it and we have to be conversant with the truth; when things come up we know what to say. Young people are listening to us and we should see that they understand what we say. We are now dealing with the general position of doctrine.

C.C.T. Is that why Jehovah Elohim could trust Adam to use intelligence? God could expect him to be intelligent.

J.T. Quite so. You see how beautifully he is presented. The Spirit of God presents him according

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to his relative value as a creature, and so you read, "And Jehovah Elohim formed Man, dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and Man became a living soul". The word 'Man' being written with a capital refers to the dignified title he has. He became a living soul and that was before Eve was there at all.

Ques. God having to do so intimately with him in this breathing would involve His affections for the first time?

J.T. Very likely; although I would think that God knew well enough what He was making.

A.N.W. So far he is a living soul as the animals were in verse 24. He was a living soul. One was by the word of God and the other by the breath of God.

Is that safe to say?

J.T. God is going back on the thing. We are not lumping all in the first chapter, lumping the sixth day and the animals with man; but the Spirit of God says in Job that God formed the animals with man, but this chapter would tell us God is going back on the facts so that we might have a clearer view. Hence we have intelligence. It is said, "And out of the ground Jehovah Elohim had formed every animal of the field and all fowl of the heavens, and brought them to Man, to see what he would call them". We have not anything like this exactly in chapter 1. We are now going back on the history. God is to impress us with this great creature, so that we might have a right thought of him. He is saying, I would like to hear what Adam would call this creature and that creature. So it says in verse 19, "to see what he would call them; and whatever Man called each living soul, that was its name. And Man gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the heavens, and to every beast of the field; but as for Adam, he found no help-mate, his like". That is the thing that God would now have us rest our minds on. Adam did not

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find in all the creatures of the whole realm of cattle or the fowls or any others, anything to suit him. It was a question of Adam's own finding as well as God's. Then we see what happened. Verse 21 says, "And Jehovah Elohim caused a deep sleep to fall upon Man; and he slept. And he took one of his ribs and closed up flesh in its stead. And Jehovah Elohim built the rib that he had taken from Man into a woman; and brought her to Man. And Man said, This time it is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh: this shall be called Woman, because this was taken out of a man. Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and cleave to his wife; and they shall become one flesh. And they were both naked, Man and his wife, and were not ashamed" (verses 21 - 25). This is the Spirit of God in verse 24: "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and cleave to his wife; and they shall become one flesh. And they were both naked, Man and his wife, and were not ashamed". That is the history. Very brief but how full it is, and it is that God would impress us now with the creation of woman in view of the assembly.

A.E.W. Is the greatness of the man one reason why God turns to him in order to find a help-mate? It says, "but as for Adam, he found no help-mate, his like". Then it proceeds to His turning to Adam himself. Does that suggest the greatness of man?

J.T. "And Jehovah Elohim caused a deep sleep to fall upon Man". He is turning now to Man. That is God's resource and He is using it, and now we see what He does in the procedure and what comes out. It is to bring out the intelligence of the man.

C.H.H. Would the idea of finding enter into the thoughts of the Lord Jesus here? He was seeking according to Matthew 13 and He found the pearl and the treasure. Are the feelings and desires of the Lord indicated in Adam's feelings?

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J.T. If we pursue it in that way; we go right through to Ephesians too. At the same time we should seek to keep to the point of what is in the chapter and then proceed from that point to another point and so get intelligence, bit by bit; learn in part on these lines.

J.H. In 1 Timothy Paul makes much of the fact that Adam was formed first, then Eve, laying the basis for headship.

J.T. Showing how Paul himself used the actual facts of Scripture in dealing with moral things among the brethren.

R.W.S. Paul says to Timothy, "Laying these things before the brethren, thou wilt be a good minister of Christ Jesus, nourished with the words of the faith and of the good teaching which thou hast fully followed up" 1 Timothy 4:6. I wondered whether what we are at now in this chapter is followed up; one thing leading on to another. Is that a key in the ministry? It should operate that way.

J.T. I should think Paul used these two young men, especially Timothy, to teach us how to learn.

Ques. Is that why the word for 'man' is changed in verse 23?

J.T. Yes; we have another formation. The vocabulary now is enlarged in what we are speaking of. We have two new words which we have not had before, showing how things grow. Even our vocabulary in dealing with the things of God grows as we are patient and learn bit by bit. So the word for 'man' is different here. It is Ish and Ishshah; Ish is man and Ishshah is woman. So that we are enlarged now; we have something. This reading gives us something we can stop at; an advance in our vocabulary in its use in divine things.

A.P.T. In verse 19 it says, "And ... Jehovah Elohim ... brought them to Man, to see what he would call them". And in the end of verse 22, "he ...

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brought her to Man". Would Adam's learning be somewhat cumulative in that? He says something. Is there cumulative learning, step by step?

J.T. It is just as Paul would have Timothy in his mind as an ideal for us in the sense of learning, how we are to learn. He was Paul's pupil, as you might say. He would learn things as Paul had them, and so here. Adam is really learning from himself as if God would say, see what a creature I have. And of himself he finds words to express himself. So the passage says in verse 22, "And Jehovah Elohim built the rib that he had taken from Man into a woman; and brought her to Man. And Man said, This time it is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh: this shall be called Woman, because this was taken out of a man". He has coined a word. He has found a word to express himself. He has found a name for his spouse and he named her Ishshah. He says, "This time it is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; this shall be called Woman" (which, as I said before, is Ishshah), "because this was taken out of a man". He gives the reason for it. So that he has finished the matter. God loves him to do it. He intended to bring out what a great creature He had made. Of course that is to be transferred in our minds to the Lord Jesus not as creature but as a divine Person. What a Man He is; that He should be before us in all these things.

R.R.T. This morning we looked at God differentiating between light and darkness and now this is coming out in man. He sees the animals and differentiates in what he sees now and calls it woman.

J.T. God would say -- not that we would put words into the blessed God's mouth -- but He would say, What a creature I have! He can converse with Me and I with him. He is conversing with Me about his wife. It is a question of holy conversation between God and man.

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R.R.T. God would see what was exhibited in Himself and take pleasure in it.

J.T. Quite so. That is what we should stop with and see if we cannot grow in it as conversing with God. And so the idea of the conversational idea that is found in the New Testament as, for instance, in Acts 20 when Eutychus was restored and brought up and the brethren were comforted, the conversation went on. The holy conversation between God and His people went on, and of course that is what these meetings are: God speaking to us and we to God.

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"BEGINNING" (3)

Genesis 15:5 - 21; Ezekiel 47:5 - 9; John 1:1 - 3

J.T. It is the first day of the week and the day continues to the evening, and it would seem as though we should fill it out. We know the Lord continued on the first day of the week till late in the evening, and it is in mind that we might look at something for expansion, enlargement, which the day would suggest.

The thought is that in the consideration of these passages, we may reach the thought of Deity which is to be linked up with our readings yesterday. It is fitting that as entering on such a subject as we had yesterday, we should come to expansion. So God comes in, according to what He is as God in a plural sense, and all that flows out of that in the sense of expansion. So it is thought that Genesis 15 affords an opportunity to touch on what is subjective in the sense of expansion, for it has to be connected with God, only in the Spirit, not as He is seen in the first verses or the early verses of the book as brooding over the face of the deep, or the waters, but in view of life, in view of expansion. That is in the sense of the Spirit, in the sense of expansion in the Spirit.

Ezekiel serves to bring that out, the river increasing to impassability, and then what flows out of that in view of the believer extending and doubling, for the river becomes double. Indeed, the suggestion is infinitely so because it cannot be passed over.

The verses in John afford the truth doctrinally of all this matter because it lies in the Word, the Logos, that is to say, God in that sense. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" John 1:1. It seems as if the Lord would help us as we are with Him in regard to the first day of

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the week so that we are set free from all else to be engaged with these things and Him.

O.A.M. Would you say why you stress the Spirit in chapter 15?

J.T. That is where the subjective truth lies. If we connect it with God that is where it lies; it is a question of the Spirit.

S.McC. You were alluding yesterday to the thought of knowledge as entering into Genesis 2 in man. Now in this chapter that we are starting with, we again get that thought coming up with Abraham, do we not? He says, in verse 8, "Lord Jehovah, how shall I know that I shall possess it?" It is a question of knowledge again, is it not?

J.T. Just so, and I would say subjective knowledge, an expression that is intelligible as we understand the New Testament, not simply objective, but what is subjective, how enlargement lies there.

J.R.H. Would that be seen somewhat in the character of the animals mentioned here, the heifer and the she-goat and turtle-dove?

J.T. I think that is what is meant, that it enters into the chapter peculiarly, how Abraham was to know. He wants to know how he is to know and Jehovah gives him these creatures, as pointing to the means of knowing.

A.N.W. He believed Jehovah, it says. That would be objective, I suppose?

J.T. Well, it would. In the prophets it says, "We shall know, we shall follow on to know", Hosea 6:3. What is seen here-we all know, at least, I suppose some of us do in this chapter is the idea of the word of God as such.

It appears first in this chapter and in the sense of a vision, so that we evidently arrive at enlargement, for God anticipated Abraham; "After these things the word of Jehovah came to Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram; I am thy shield, thy exceeding great reward", Genesis 15:1. That was anticipative of

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what was going on in the mind of Abraham, but it indicated what was going on in the mind of God, too. We have earlier the suggestion of what goes on, not simply what is in the mind of God, but what precedes it, and so in chapter 8 He says things in His heart. Jehovah says things in His heart. He does not say them out loud, so to speak. He says them in His heart, so there is a suggestion of things that are proceeding in the heart of God. They are to come out in detail, and this chapter seems to afford the opportunity of this, what God has in His heart, what Abraham, too, had in his heart, what he was thinking about.

We have what God had in His heart, and how He would expand His thoughts in view of Abraham. So it says, verse 2, we must remember that he is speaking in the presence of a vision, "And Abram said, Lord Jehovah, what wilt thou give me? seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus. And Abram said, Lo, to me thou hast given no seed, and behold, a son of my house will be mine heir. And behold, the word of Jehovah came to him, saying, This shall not be thine heir, but he that will come forth out of thy body shall be thine heir. And he led him out, and said, Look now toward the heavens, and number the stars if thou be able to number them. And he said to him, So shall thy seed be! And he believed Jehovah; and he reckoned it to him as righteousness. And he said to him, I am Jehovah who brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldeans, to give thee this land to possess it. And he said, Lord Jehovah, how shall I know that I shall possess it?" That is to say, how is he to know it?

A.S.B. Is there some link with chapter 1 of this book as we had it in verse 14, "And God said, Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens", and now He is in vision speaking to Abraham in relation to the filling? You are using the word 'expansion'

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as connected with that to fill it out with persons?

J.T. Yes. Well, that is what I think is so, and we shall see it further as we look into Ezekiel, because he pursues the line of the river issuing forth until he reaches an impassable point. That is to say, we have the suggestion of Deity, of God, and then what flows from that so that he is led back, whoever is leading him leads him back to the bank of the river, and then we have the idea of the double thought. It is a double river. That is to say, there is enlargement at once; the passage says, "Son of man, hast thou seen this? And he led me, and brought me back to the bank of the river. When I returned, behold, on the bank of the river were very many trees on the one side and on the other", very many. Then we have later the idea of the double river, "And it shall come to pass that every living thing which moveth, whithersoever the double river shall come, shall live", I think that we should rightly conclude that we are in a section bordering on God, on Deity, and what flows from it, "that ye may be filled even to all the fulness of God".

J.W.B. In the epistle to Colossians, full knowledge is mentioned three times. I was wondering if that would help us in regard to what we are speaking of now.

J.T. Very good. We find it, too, in Matthew 11, a similar thought, and then we find it in Ephesians 4, because God has nothing less than that in His mind for us, clear, full knowledge, what may be called real knowledge.

A.H.P. In the passage you quoted in Hosea, it speaks of knowing the Lord, of knowing God. "We shall follow on to know Jehovah: his going forth is assured as the morning dawn", Hosea 6:3. Would you regard this unfolding of God's activities as akin to the idea of His going forth, God coming out and making Himself known?

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J.T. Just so. He is going forth. In that connection we read earlier of the people being destroyed for lack of knowledge, but in Hosea 6:3, "And we shall know,-we shall follow on to know Jehovah", and then His going forth is spoken of.

J.A.P. The way you were referring to it, can we lay it to purpose, know the purposes of God?

J.T. Well, quite so. Therefore it leads us into Ephesians. That is where God especially lays Himself out, so to speak, to instruct the assembly. We have general knowledge elsewhere, of course, but in Ephesians, as it were, God is laying Himself out to instruct the assembly. So that Paul says, "That ye can understand my intelligence in the mystery of the Christ", Ephesians 3:4. Someone had it and that was Paul, so that the idea is there.

G.McP. In the acquiring of knowledge, is there a certain process of soul history like with Abraham in this chapter?

J.T. That is a good inquiry, because that is the intent of the reading of the chapter, how we shall arrive at it, because that is what he wants to know himself, how he is to arrive at it. Peter raises the thought with the Lord in his final word with Him in John 21. He raises the question of knowledge, of what was there. Our chapter in Genesis 15 is just that. Abraham wants to know. The time has arrived that he should say to himself that he should come into the clear knowledge of things. He had not had a son born to him. He was to depart without a family, whereas in truth his name indicated, and eventually was rightly understood, that he was to be the father of a multitude. That has to be understood. How is it to be reached? So in verse 8 he further says to Jehovah, "How shall I know that I shall possess it?" and then we have these creatures, the thought suggested to him, or the command, really, to take a "heifer of three years old, and a she-goat of three

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years old, and a ram of three years old, and a turtledove, and a young pigeon". That is what he is told to do and what he is not told to do is what he further does, that is to say, what verse 10 says. "And he took all these, and divided them in the midst". Jehovah did not tell him to do this, but he did it, showing that he is learning already. It is the basis in him of clear knowledge. "And he took all these, and divided them in the midst, and laid the half of each opposite its fellow; but the birds he did not divide. And the birds of prey came down on the carcases; and Abram scared them away", showing what Jehovah does not tell him to do is especially to be noted, because we see in it the basis for clear knowledge, of getting on to full knowledge.

A.R. Verse 13 says, "And he said to Abram, Know assuredly". I suppose that is to be noted?

J.T. Quite so. That is to be stressed because there is adversity involved in it. He says, "Know assuredly that thy seed will be a sojourner in a land that is not theirs, and they shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years". He is to know the adverse side of things because we must know the adverse side. Whatever it may be, go through it; otherwise, we would be just living on objective knowledge. We have to go through things.

N.W. You have spoken of this as the learning time. Is your thought in connection with this chapter that God uses our present circumstances here to help us reach the truth subjectively in view of our eternal place which is not a learning time exactly?

J.T. Quite so. Some of us have thought that we go on learning eternally, but it is not so, otherwise we become monstrosities. This is the learning time. Hence in the great chapter, Ephesians 3, we are to know the breadth, length, depth and height, which is a suggestion of creature knowledge, creature limitation, but "the love of the Christ which surpasses

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knowledge", Ephesians 3:19 is not creature limitation. We are reminded that while it is not creature limitation, it passes knowledge, which is our knowledge.

S.McC. In 1 Corinthians 13 it says, "now I know partially, but then I shall know according as I also have been known". How do you regard that -- "I shall know according as I also have been known"?

J.T. The question is to whom the knowledge is attributed. Who is it spoken of as having the knowledge? What has been known of him? What has been known of Paul? If it be infinite knowledge, then of course, it could not be with the creature, but if the knowledge is just what is in Paul, what he is capable of, what his history implies, well, then, it would be simply creature limitation.

J.R.H. That is, he reaches up to God's knowledge of him. He reaches up to that.

J.T. Well, I suppose so. The question is now, if we have time to look into it enough, as to the meaning of the expression, whether it is God's knowledge of him, or whether it is another knowledge of him which is to be the limit, or standard of the knowledge that is thereby attributable to him at all times. "I shall know according as I also have been known" 1 Corinthians 13:12. I hope the brethren are not mystified by such remarks, but I think we need to look into the thing.

A.S.B. How does chapter 8 of 1 Corinthians work in with that? "But if anyone love God, he is known of him" (verse 3). Would that enter into it?

J.T. That is very clear, but whether I have been known is a sort of hypothetical suggestion and who the person is who knows, is what is in mind. Clearly it is a standard of knowledge that Paul would have to come up to.

A.N.W. Obscure window would seem to suggest that the obscurity is on one side, and not on the other, "but then face to face". It is the same person,

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and as much as is known is to be known then face to face.

J.T. I think in view of the things that are said in the passage, I mean in 1 and 2 Corinthians, that there is an uncertainty about it, so that in 2 Corinthians 3:17 we read, "Now the Lord is the Spirit, but where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, looking on the glory of the Lord, with unveiled face, are transformed according to the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Lord the Spirit". There is something in the sense of what is seen there and what is linked up primarily with the new covenant that needs, perhaps, more consideration than we have time for now.

W.C. You referred to subjective expansion. The man of whom we are speaking, Abraham, was expanded in a previous chapter. He was told of a blessing in relation to the dust of the earth, but here there is a different expansion. I wondered if you had something more in your mind about the subjective side in the expansion here.

J.T. We have so far come on to verse 9. Abraham says in verse 8, "Lord Jehovah, how shall I know that I shall possess it? And he said to him, Take me a heifer of three years old, and a she-goat of three years old, and a ram of three years old, and a turtledove and a young pigeon". Now we have come to this verse. Your inquiry is whether I have something else in mind. I have the question of knowledge, of the subjective feature of things in Christianity; that is, whether we have learned the initial idea of it, and clearly Abraham had something. Jehovah stops at a certain point and Abraham proceeds on his own account. Referring again to the Corinthian epistles, we have in chapter 7 a very remarkable set of instructions, items of instruction, where Paul differentiates between his own experience and the knowledge that flows from it, and revelation. It seems as if the

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question is whether we have basically what assures us of the full thought of knowledge, full, clear knowledge, in being able to distinguish between revelation and what may flow from experience, and the Spirit working in us according to that experience.

L.E.S. Do you think that what the apostle refers to in Timothy-there were always those who were learning and never able to come to the full knowledge of the truth-would bear upon our passage?

J.T. It does bear on it, and what has been said about Abraham would meet it compared with 1 Corinthians 7. What is said of Abraham is the basis there of clear knowledge, because he is told by Jehovah what to do. "Take me a heifer", etc., but then he is left with that. Then it says, "And he took all these, and divided them in the midst, and laid the half of each opposite its fellow; but the birds he did not divide". Well, I think we have in this verse the suggestion that there is the basis in Abraham of clear knowledge, and that Jehovah is bringing that out as He did in Adam. He did not tell Adam what the names were to be. He left them with Adam and whatever Adam named them, those were their names. So I think God would lay down for us something in this sense as to clear knowledge. That is, if we have the basis of clear knowledge in any sense, then we can proceed, and God will be with us. "Consider what I say", it says. If we do not do that, we will not get on, but if we do, the Lord gives understanding in all things.

J.R.H. These are not sacrifices apparently, but rather the opening up of the inward parts.

J.T. There must be the idea of sacrifice in them, but they are to be divided, and another thing is they are three years old until we come to the birds. That is to say, Abraham has got to go out in the herds and find them and in finding them, he is learning. He is learning how nature itself works. We are told that

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nature teaches us, and we are to be open for the teaching of nature.

T.U. Do you have any thought as to why the offerings are linked with three years?

J.T. I think the idea is maturity. That is to say, they indicate full-grown persons, full growth. Hebrews contemplates the need of full growth. We are not all the time learning, and yet never coming to a knowledge of the truth. If we look at the passage in Hebrews 5, perhaps it would help us a little, verse 11, "Concerning whom we have much to say, and hard to be interpreted in speaking of it, since ye are become dull in hearing. For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have again need that one should teach you what are the elements of the beginning of the oracles of God, and are become such as have need of milk, and not of solid food. For everyone that partakes of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe; but solid food belongs to full-grown men who, on account of habit, have their senses exercised for distinguishing both good and evil". I think the crux of the matter lies there, of what we are speaking of, that the age of these creatures denotes full growth; persons who have all their senses in exercise can proceed to further knowledge. You are not content with what you already know. You want more.

J.H.Jr. Is there a link with Philippians 1, Paul speaking of the love of the Philippians? He prays that their love might abound more and more in full knowledge and all intelligence, that they may judge of and approve the things that are more excellent. He goes on to speak of his circumstances. I wonder if that would link on with this.

J.T. That helps. The allusion to Philippians helps, indeed, because it is a great subjective epistle, having in mind what he had already attained to, and he had the accompaniments of real knowledge.

A.H.P. It is very remarkable in that epistle. The

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apostle says that he desired to "know him and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings", Philippians 3:10. We might have thought that objective. Do you regard that expression as linked on with this idea of subjective knowledge?

J.T. That is right, "that I may know him". He has laid himself out for it. We want to proceed on those lines because it is urgent. It is the time of learning as we have been reminded and to know how is the thing. Abraham raises this question with Jehovah and this matter of maturity enters into it, the age of these creatures. Abraham in seeking them out of his flocks, as we may suppose he did, would be thinking all the time of when these creatures were born. He probably kept a record of the ages of his cattle. Some farmers do. I suppose good farmers ought to keep a record of the ages of their cattle, but especially when they symbolise persons, their ages, so that Abraham is the great family man. He was the great father. We may be sure that he would develop the fatherly thought, and especially as Isaac came into view, how the dates would come into his mind, how old persons were. It is important, too, because the testimony requires that we keep account of dates, the ages of persons, and especially persons that God is using because it may be that God might lengthen out the age of a brother if needed, as He did Moses and as He did Hezekiah, showing what an elastic situation we are in. What love is in God, and developed in us! What a realm we are in!

R.R.T. So that this matter of the age of the animals is something that God distinctly said to Abraham, "Take me a heifer of three years old", but then you were stressing that Abraham in his intelligence went beyond what God had told him, divided them in pieces. I was wondering if the smoking furnace coming in and moving between the pieces would indicate God's delight in what Abraham had

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done and now going on to something further in view of that.

J.T. Well, that all enters into it. We have already alluded to what his posterity would have to go through in Egypt, but there are other things, too, in the sense of balance and discipline; so he is showing that he is worthy of trust, because he not only knows the ages of these creatures -- I mean to say he is to find out where they are and what the ages of his creatures or his cattle might be. He has to search the thing out, work the thing out, because the question of age must come up in each case, when the creature began to have being and how it is now. All that is a process through which Abraham has to go and he does, because he finds the creatures and then he drove away the birds of prey which came down, it says, on the carcases. That is to say, he is an alert man, a trustworthy man. He is not going to evade the devil's work. If the devil is going to do anything, he seeks to undo the works of the devil. That is what the Lord Jesus has done and that is in principle what we must learn to do, to undo the works of the devil as far as possible. Here he drove away the birds of prey. The birds of prey came down on the carcases and Abraham scared them away. "Resist the devil and he will flee from you", James 4:7. Therefore, the experience of the believer is worked out in these cases and flows from the fact that he believed in Jehovah. He was a believer. Abraham was a believer, and faith is worked out in all these things.

J.T.Jr. In the Lord's parable about the sower, the word of God was sown. The devil comes in in the first case of the seed sown by the wayside and takes away the seed. Here the birds come and Abraham scares them away.

J.T. Yes. I think the principle of scaring away ought to be with responsible persons, whoever they are, in either case, because it is when men sleep, the

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Lord says in the other parable, the devil works. We are reminded that we are to be on the alert in the service of God, in the sphere of His testimony, that the devil does not get a footing at all; and if he does, there is some slackness because it is when men sleep that the devil works. I do not know whether that fits in with your remarks.

J.T.Jr. I think it does because the sleeping might allude to those active in service who are not looking after other things. Is that what you have in mind?

J.T. Just so. Take the history of the assembly and the testimony involved in it. The history of the seven assemblies in the book of Revelation shows that there was great remissness somewhere. There was a need for an Antipas. The devil got in somewhere. We have Christendom now on account of that, such as it is. It is the fruit of the enemy's work.

E.G.McA. I was wondering about the significance of the sun going down, the thought of having gone down and being dark.

J.T. That is a question of experience, so we should not move away from this matter of age and experience and learning based on it. This question of the cattle should be kept in mind first, and the scaring away of the birds. That should be kept in mind and we should go through with it and then see what the next thing is. Abraham so far is successful. Verse 12 says, "And as the sun was just going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and behold, a horror, a great darkness, fell upon him". Well, I think we are reminded of Genesis 1. The point that we made yesterday was that what we have in Genesis 1 in the days will work out in doctrine and teaching and ministry eventually all down through the history of the testimony, and so we are reminded of that in this matter of darkness. The horror of a great darkness fell upon Abraham. It would appear that we are reminded of the way days are worked out, what the effect is on our lives, so that

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the day begins with the evening, not with the morning, "And there was evening, and there was morning". If we look back to the first chapter it says there, "And there was evening, and there was morning" -- one day -- or "the first day". There is something in the history of the believer in the sense of the evening that we have to understand and learn that things are not all rosy with us, that we begin to sow really in the beginning of our lives, the evening and the morning. We have to learn that that is the way of reckoning days, and so Jacob says, "Few and evil have been the days of the years of my life", Genesis 47:9,or "sojourning". We have to take account of the way things are mentioned -- that is to say, evening first. I think this history of Abraham would imply that he had a very terrible time of it, but he had to learn it himself. All this experience, what we were speaking of as learning, as subjective knowledge, is worked out in our experience in this sense in going through darkness, going through the dark days. Whatever they may be, go through them.

A.S.B. Did you have in mind in relation to the age that it is really here, what is on earth being governed by the heavenly position, the solar system, but in the working out of it, it is brought down to the single days?

J.T. Just so, the solar system. It is good to touch on those things. The word 'solar' would not come in in the first three days properly. It comes into the fourth day. It is the question of the position of the sun. We have to be content at first with the idea of light. God called the light day. He said, "Let there be light. And there was light" Genesis 1:3, not saying whence it came. We have to learn from experience in that sense.

R.H.S. In 1 Corinthians 12 we seem to have knowledge by the Spirit, the word of knowledge. Would you suggest that we acquire knowledge through experience?

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J.T. We do. The Spirit comes into it all. We have not time for that now. I certainly should like that we should all get the idea of this subjective learning or knowledge as contemplated in Genesis 15. Then we have to go on to Ezekiel, and we have to touch a little on John 1. So we will pass on to Ezekiel because we certainly have not finished our subject, and it is a good thing that we do not finish things, that we leave off things and come back to them. We have hardly time now to say any more about our chapter, interesting as it is, save that we have come to the point that Abraham has scared away the birds of prey, and he has gone through darkness. Then we may add that the creatures were set each against his fellow and the light passed through. It says in verse 17, "And it came to pass when the sun had gone down, and it was dark, that behold, there was a smoking furnace, and a flame of fire which passed between those pieces". Now the power of God has come in. We can hardly leave our subject without touching on this. The power of God has come in in the smoking furnace, and the flame of fire that passes through those pieces. Abraham has set them in a certain position, and God takes account of that position, and the power of God is allowed to come through because there is something substantial there, or we would not have such a scene as this-that is to say, a smoking furnace and a flame of fire. There is some substance to it because there is the smoke and the flame and then the result is that everything is secured. The covenant is made with Abraham. Now we are set up in relation with God and we know where we are and what we are doing. So that in touching it in this way, we may pass on to Ezekiel so as to see how the Deity comes in at the point of human experience. Then we have something that we cannot fathom, that we cannot pass through, and therefore we bow and we feel that we have to do with God

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and it makes us reverential. We become illuminated and we find there is at least double what we thought there was-first as to the river, and then as to the trees on the banks of it which would allude to persons. I hope the brethren are following, that we are not being mystified. We have taken on a subject but one feels that we should and that we should see how enlargement enters into the first day of the week.

A.H.P. To pass through the waters might suggest to us how knowledge is increased with us. You were saying earlier in your prayer we know in part. Do you think this is progressive, from the ankles, knees, loins, then to impassable waters? Would it suggest something akin to the Spirit's way with us in forming us in divine knowledge?

J.T. That is what I was thinking. We must count on the Spirit in all our learning, in all that we know. We must have in mind that the Spirit is here, and the power by which everything is carried through.

A.R. Is the swimming experimental?

J.T. Just so. Waters to swim in.

C.A.M. Did I understand you to convey that in chapter 47:5, of Ezekiel, we come to infinitude, the river that could not be passed through. Is that right? In Mr. Darby's translation it is the end of a paragraph and then he is brought back. My thought was as to your allusion to the trees being persons. Is this to form some practical evidences of this life?

J.T. Quite. It is a question of having missed something, and now you are brought back to it. As was said already in verse 5, "waters to swim in", but we are now in infinitude, so that it is the realm of God in that sense. Then someone speaks, someone who leads (the idea of leadership must be in it) -- "And he said unto me, Son of man, hast thou seen

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this?". He had not. So we are reminded of how much we miss. "And he led me, and brought me back to the bank of the river", and then not only that, "When I returned", the idea of returning to a point. Then he says, "behold, on the bank of the river were very many trees on the one side and on the other". Already some of us have been speaking of God "bringing many sons to glory". We cannot say how many. There are very many here.

S.W.P. Is there any link here with the river? You have spoken already of Genesis 15, God speaking of the covenant, and He speaks of the great river Euphrates, and then there seems to be further expansion of a river that is impassable in Ezekiel. Is it the extension of the thought of God in Genesis 15? He speaks of the great river Euphrates and leaves it there as if the thought of the river is to be a future development.

J.T. The river would be a full stop, you might say. We have come to something that implies a full stop and so David stopped there, but he did not stop there until he had established his boundaries. His empire was extended and finished, looked after properly, and I think that is implied in Abraham's position, because it is a question of the disposition of the earth in his case; but now when we come to Ezekiel, we are dealing with infinitude which is hardly the thought with David or in Solomon, or in Abraham, but Ezekiel is the power of God. It alludes to that, and we have this wonderful river and all that flows out of it and the idea of infinitude, and then what flows from plenty, from the latitude implied. These trees, very many trees and many other things are touched on in the sense of the power of healing in the river and the double river, that is, the idea is so increased that it is said to be double.

J.L.P. Is there any correspondence in what Job reaches at the end? When Jehovah turned the

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captivity of Job, He gave him twice as much as he had before.

J.T. Very good. That would bring up the subject of the meaning of the teaching in the book of Job. It is not infinitude. It is double as much as he had before. There are certain limitations, however, to that, but anyway, it is a picture of Israel. That is, we do not rise to the level of heaven in Job. It is really Israel, only that we do arise to the idea of high priest because Job is constituted that. He is constituted a high priest because he is ordered to pray for his friends, and his prayer is effective so that the whole matter is finished really. The whole matter of the book of Job is finished with Job himself. It is a question of priesthood. When we come to Ezekiel, we are in the prophets, but a peculiar prophet because the idea is power, I think, in Ezekiel and so this river is a symbol of it, but it is such a thing as I can touch, as the creature can touch, and find his measure, too, in it, beginning with his ankles and going to his loins, and then swimming, the means of swimming, so that we might say it is the fulness of God, "filled even to all the fulness of God". I think that is what is in mind. It is a question of learning things by experience and then, too, the river in itself, in its double character, and the persons, trees denoting persons, a great many of them, and then the power of healing. So that there is much to be learned, as one was saying, on the Lord's day in all these things, how we are brought to God, how we are in the realm of God on the first day of the week.

R.W.S. Is it not remarkable that all this should come out in the book of Ezekiel where conditions publicly were so weak due to failure and is there not correspondence thus with our day?

J.T. We are reminded in Philadelphia that while there was weakness, there was strength, at least a

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little. There is something you can go on and reckon on. It is a little strength.

A.S.B. Is there a parallel in what the apostle experiences in 2 Corinthians 12 in relation to the ecstasy? I was thinking of your reference to infinitude. He says, "I know a man in Christ, fourteen years ago (whether in the body I know not, or out of the body I know not, God knows)". There was infinitude connected with that. There was great gain as the result of it.

J.T. Quite so. We are not left in uncertainty at all. That is to say, God knows. That passage contemplates the love of Christ which passes knowledge, and then the next thing is the fulness of God, and that, too, passes knowledge, but we are sustained in it. We are not lost in it. We are there intelligently. That is what I want to understand.

J.R.H. Are you implying that by divine love we are brought into touch with infinitude from time to time, but with all that, we have much to learn?

J.T. You are always seeking to learn, because infinitude means that you can never end it, only it does not run on into eternity. The present is a learning time. It is a time of learning. It would be a misleading thing for any to put forward that we learn in eternity.

T.U. Would the expansion of verses 7, 8 and 9 be the result of a subject person?

J.T. Ezekiel was a subject person? Quite so. That is what runs through the prophetic word. It is a suggestion of leadership. Sometimes you cannot be sure of who the person is, but it is there. The idea of leadership is there.

Now, if we can end with John, because we come to the beginning, the greatest of all beginnings. The allusion is the greatest of all. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word

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was God". It is different from what we get later and which we hope to look at tomorrow, that which was from the beginning. Now we come down to narrow limits. John 1 is the greatest thought as to our subject, that is to say, the beginning. It is a question of the Person of Christ, a question of God. "In the beginning was the Word". He was there. He did not begin. He was there at the beginning, or in the beginning He was there. That is to say, it is eternity. He is eternal. He is the eternal God, and that applies to Christ as it does to the Father.

G.McP. Is that the link between this and Ezekiel? You spoke of being in the presence of the Infinite. In the gospel we are in the presence of the Infinite.

J.T. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God".

A.P.T. Is John 1 objective knowledge?

J.T. You mean the verses we have read? Well, they are statements made by the Spirit of God. It is not a question of the knowledge of the person whom God uses to write, because he is just an instrument, but it is the Holy Spirit we have to do with, the Person who is behind it all. So we are in the presence of God, dealing with God and God's statements, so that I do not think we should speak of the kind of knowledge there. It is a question of divine Persons.

A.P.T. In regard to one's self, how do I understand the truth known objectively?

J.T. It is a question now of the whole matter of knowledge, how it can be spoken of, and so it is with John himself. He comes down to use the word, "I suppose". It is just like Paul differentiating between the Lord's commandment and his own judgment, his own knowledge of things by experience. That is to say, it is limited, creature limitations. When you are dealing with apostleship, with such persons as apostles, you are bound to come to who they are, whether they are just creatures, or whether they are divine Persons,

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and John is just a creature, although he is an apostle and the writer of the gospel. He is just a creature, and therefore he is ready to say, "I suppose that not even the world itself would contain the books written" John 21:25, but in that way he is just saying that the writings and work of Christ in themselves are infinite.

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"BEGINNING" (4)

John 1:1 - 18; 1 John 1:1 - 10

J.T. The brethren will recall we began with the idea of the beginning so as to have the advantage of primary thoughts and how they run through; not simply in ordinary language but spiritual language; they run through. We just touched on John's gospel, chapter 1, at the end of our meeting yesterday and it is thought that we should resume the thought as to it. It is one of the most important passages, if not the most important, in the whole of the Bible bearing on what we are engaged with, for it is a question in John 1 of God; God in the three Persons who compose or form the Deity. So that the general proposal is to look at John's gospel again this morning, and in the afternoon John's epistle. In fact, the thought is that we should link on John's gospel with the first chapter of the epistle, leaving the balance of the epistle or any thoughts that may be in mind for the afternoon reading.

In looking into John's gospel and his writings generally, it may be remarked that they are included, although late, in the general thought of revelation which marks Christianity. There seems to have been a need for a restatement of facts (John's gospel evidently coming in the latest of all in the written page) from the purely spiritual standpoint and, of course, therefore, the standpoint of inspiration. Much had been written, too, in the way of description and history, but the gospel of John seems to fit in to give us authoritatively an account of things spiritually; so that the history of Christianity would be on a sure basis and run on to the end, John having been in mind when the Lord said, "If I will that he abide until I come, what is that to thee?" John 21:22.

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It was a matter for the Lord to decide as to whether John should tarry until He returned, but evidently the Lord meant that His coming should be prolonged and not so immediate as might have been thought. Prolongation seemed to be a feature in that sense of this section of Scripture. And so the idea of the beginning marks the gospel of John as it does the book of Genesis, only the gospel of John, as has been remarked, deals with Christianity, the greatest of all dispensations; and, indeed, one might say, the last word as to everything for all the dispensations come upon us, Paul says. And now it behoves us, if we look into the thing rightly, to fix our minds on the Person of the Lord Jesus; not as in John's epistle because it is the neuter word there, "that which", whereas in the gospel it is, "In the beginning was the Word". That is, it is purely personal, and it is what is to be predicated of Him personally, extending back to His place in the Deity; not only in time but in the Deity, because it is not only that the Word was in the beginning, but the Word was with God-the idea of the association of the Word with God, and then that He was God. So that there will be no question in any mind save a reprobate one as to the Deity of our Lord Jesus Christ, and that He is the same Person in the Deity as He is in humanity, only His condition is outwardly changed in humanity. And so this section of the gospel, that is to the end of verse 18, includes the idea of the incarnation; not only the personal existence of the Lord in the Deity but His incarnate condition. Therefore, we have comprehensive facts which may be distributed right down the dispensation, and have been, too; the root facts distributed in the power of the Spirit, and, of course, that is greatly stressed in John's gospel-the presence of the Holy Spirit.

L.E.S. Was the first heresy that arose in order to weaken the truth as to the Lord's Person, as to His

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incarnation and what lay behind His incarnation? It was the effort of the enemy to weaken the whole substantiality of the dispensation.

J.T. Yes; it was an attack, a direct attack on God but especially on the One who became incarnate; "The Word was God" it says. We are hardly capable of taking on negative features such as were involved in the attack, but John takes it up. It runs through his writings. The negative side of things, of course, was of the devil. Our wisdom now is to occupy ourselves with the positive side and become conversant with the roots of language and thought that enter into the doctrine of Christianity.

J.T.Jr. The introduction of the personal pronoun would help us, too, in verse 2: "He was in the beginning with God".

J.T. That is the Word being alluded to. The idea was that a word was available for use to designate the Person, and hence the emphatic pronoun in the beginning of verse 2, "He".

S.McC. Would you say something as to this appellation -- "the Word". Do you think it came out while the Lord was here among His disciples, or did it come out after the Spirit descended? It does not seem to be something revealed to them, but something that came out among them.

J.T. It was something they were conversant with. The disciples were conversant with the thought. The word evidently had become known, had become current, and what is said of it is in keeping with what has been remarked already; that is, it is a word that was intended to be known and useable and therefore the importance of knowing the meaning of it. It is one of the features that we are engaged with in the idea of the beginning, because it is said immediately, "In the beginning was the Word".

A.N.W. The identity of the Person both in Deity and manhood is established, but have you anything

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to say as to the form of Deity in relation to the form of manhood?

J.T. Well, it is remarkable that Paul, although he is not the one that the Lord selected to write this gospel (it is John, the disciple whom He loved, not Paul) yet it is remarkable that he furnishes us with what is essential to John's ministry. What he furnishes us with is in Philippians 2:5, "For let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus; who, subsisting in the form of God, did not esteem it an object of rapine to be on an equality with God; but emptied himself, taking a bondman's form, taking his place in the likeness of men; and having been found in figure as a man, humbled himself, becoming obedient even unto death, and that the death of the cross". It is Paul that God selects to make this statement, and it is made in connection with the need for humility in dealing with the great subject; that it is in no way a matter to be dealt with academically but spiritually. It means we must be spiritual and if we are not spiritual then there is a test: "If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him recognise the things that I write to you, that it is the Lord's commandment", 1 Corinthians 14:37. So that Paul becomes the test in view of doctrine, and especially systematic doctrine, and system in every way, in the spiritual sense. He selects Paul who is the great builder or constructor of the assembly; so that the idea of structure must be before us and at the same time the spirit of humility is to be maintained -- grown in -- so as to handle such a holy subject.

S.J.H. Does the title "the Word" imply that there is more to be conveyed now, more than just a breathing into man? There is an expansion. There is more to be conveyed.

J.T. That is, I would say, right. We have to link on now with the book of Acts and the gospel of Luke, too, of course; but the gospel of Luke was very early.

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The book of Acts is clearly later, but the gospel of John still later, and what has been said is, I am sure, right. There was evidently the need of something to be added in the sense of logos, that which denotes what is in the mind of God. It may not be yet declared, but it is in the mind of God, for "the Word" denotes or implies not only what is said or declared, but what may be said. So that as we noted yesterday in Genesis 8 God said certain things in His heart. They can hardly be called yet 'the word' because they are not spoken, but they are said in some sense in God's heart and that is the idea. What we are engaged with now may include what is in the heart of God as well as what is spoken, only we have to add to that, that Paul says he completed the word of God; so that there is nothing new now to be revealed. Everything is out. It is a question of our knowing how to deal with what is out; that is to say, what is put into language.

F.N.W. In 1 Corinthians 1 the note to the word logos reads, "Thus all that communicates the divine mind (the intelligible) is logos, and first of all Christ himself". Does that suggest there is more in a way to come out?

J.T. There was then, but there is not now, because the word is completed; Paul says, to complete the word of God. That is to say, the whole scope of the divine mind is out in that sense.

J.McK. Does verse 14 of this chapter help? "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us". Is that the whole thing brought out now?

J.T. Yes; it is a question of the Person. He dwelt among us. That is, He became incarnate.

The word is 'tabernacled'; He tabernacled among us, so that you could converse with Him and He with you. No doubt that could be said even before this gospel is written, but this gospel being written was Intended to cover Him in this word.

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A.R. The two that followed the Lord in chapter 1 understood this word; they called Him 'Rabbi', which means 'Teacher'.

J.T. That is right. They felt the need of being taught which is what we need now. We all need to be taught and that is why they used that word; and, moreover, that is what Mary Magdalene meant in using it, too, that He was her Teacher, that she had no other. So that that restricts us in dipping into things that we have not seen. She would confine herself to what came out through Christ.

C.A.M. If I understand your expression Paul enunciated the doctrine in a systematic way so that we would rightly study the Person of Christ in John's gospel. Is that right? You were alluding to the teaching in the epistle and with that we can study his last writing as to the Person of Christ. It would guide our thoughts in our occupation with His Person in the John setting.

J.T. Paul and John and Peter are clearly linked up with deep affection. The facts relative to them would indicate that; and we have often mentioned as to the great servant that has been used of God to bring all these things to us, so that we should have them as we have them now, that he said to the brethren -- as he was about to die -- to cleave to Paul, but do not forget John, he said, meaning what we are dealing with now; we are not forgetting John. We are looking into John, at the same time we have inwardly deep down in our hearts that we must cleave to Paul. Therefore, the systematic side must be kept in mind.

J.T.Jr. Would the systematic side be suggested in the first few verses of Luke's gospel -- the method, the accuracy?

J.T. Undoubtedly Luke was taken up with that in mind. He was an elect vessel. He mentions in his second treatise that Paul was an elect vessel unto the

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Lord. The Lord regarded him in that light. So the systematic side being involved in Paul's ministry has to be kept in view. John is dealing more with the personal side, what is in the Person of Christ; what is in the Deity, in the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Of course, the system is in mind, too, but Paul stresses the system, systematic teaching.

A.R. Would that be seen in the school of Tyrannus?

J.T. Quite so; so long as you have the idea of a school, a teacher, a man that would demand that you should learn and be attentive. If we do not go too fast, we are coming now to the idea of the system side and Luke is taken up for that purpose. He tells us in his very first words in his gospel, "Forasmuch as many have undertaken to draw up a relation concerning the matters fully believed among us". This is just what we have been saying -- what was current among the brethren; things that were fully believed. There was real faith in them, "as those who from the beginning were eye -- witnesses of and attendants on the Word have delivered them to us, it has seemed good to me also, accurately acquainted from the origin with all things, to write to thee with method, most excellent Theophilus, that thou mightest know the certainty of those things in which thou hast been instructed". Luke 1:2 - 4. So that now we are led into Luke. We have already been thinking of Paul, the systematic side particularly in Paul, but Luke runs with Paul, if we may use that word, as understanding the systematic side of the truth. And so he would write to this beloved Theophilus who, no doubt, may be taken as a representative person at that time, a person capable of learning, so that he should learn with method; that he should have the true facts of the case and get them with method.

S.P. Is it suggested in the last chapter of 2 Timothy, Paul speaking of certain ones: "Demas

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has forsaken me, having loved the present age, and is gone to Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus to Dalmatia. Luke alone is with me", 2 Timothy 4:10. As if what was needed would be there regardless of any deflection.

J.T. Just so. Then we have to think of the person who is mentioned; who Luke is. So when Paul is at the height of his work, that is, in Acts 20, it is mentioned that certain ones were in the company; they accompanied him. They were not simply under his rule exactly as Timothy was, but they were companions; companions in the service, and the first one mentioned is a Berean. We may link that thought up with Luke, because the idea of a Berean is he is very concerned about having things right and proving the things that are said in ministry to see whether they are so, and proving them daily.

A.P.T. The facts of the incarnation being in Luke, would it be right to say it is not because Luke was a servant but because he was spiritually minded?

J.T. I would think so. There was a selection made. We were speaking of that the other day, selection being made of ministers according to the need and evidently there was great need according to the facts of Luke for a man like Luke.

J.H. He uses the word 'origin'. Does that refer to the incarnation, in verse 3?

J.T. "It has seemed good to me also, accurately acquainted from the origin with all things", Luke 1:3. That is to say, you now have in mind as to whether it is a question of the incarnation, but I would think it is what occurred before the incarnation that is in mind, but inclusive of the incarnation. So that Luke does not begin with the incarnation; he begins with Zacharias because it was a question of stating things as they were carried down from the Old Testament. Really that is what is in mind, the merging of things

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from Old Testament times into New Testament times. It was the skill that was needed for that.

A.B.P. Do you think our ability to enjoy John's ministry lies largely in the place we have given to Paul's ministry?

J.T. Everything must eventually come under Paul. Although years elapsed from the record of Acts 2 until chapter 9, yet everything awaited Paul in that sense. It was necessary that he should come. The Lord had designed that he should come, and he was said to be taken up from his birth. So that the wholly right seed should be there; such as was needed at that time and it is needed at all times. There should be selections, persons suitable in crises, persons who can be relied upon to give the facts.

E.A.L. Do we see that in Paul's opening to Timothy? He embraces him as his own true child in faith, and then gives him instructions to keep clear of all those interminable genealogies, as if he had in his mind that he was a true child in faith, and the genealogy was going forward in teaching in that way.

J.T. Quite so. Therefore, we can see the full bearing of what is said in 1 and 2 Timothy, that there should be an avoidance of all fables or anything like fables, so that the truth should be with the brethren, and that is where Luke stands, I think, in the selection of ministers.

G.MacPh. John gives the kind of features that are substantially seen in the assembly in the face of public break-down, so that the assembly in principle from John's writings and from Paul's is going through.

J.T. The linking of those two men as they are in affection, because Paul sought out Peter and then John -- these three were especially linked, I would say, in the beginning, was in order that we should have the pure facts of the history of Christianity.

R.R.T. You have been suggesting emphasising

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the thought of beginning, and I was wondering according to Mr. Darby's note in relation to verse 14 that we have been speaking of, that we have in particular a beginning here. That is, grace and truth began to subsist. The note says, '(The world'began to be'through him. He'became'flesh. So'grace and truth came into being'. I am not satisfied with'subsists', but'came'gives the idea of coming into the world. They began to exist de facto down here. The verb is singular, and'grace and truth'go together in the person of Christ. Nothing subsisted by the law, it was a rule given; but grace and truth actually commenced to be, not in God's mind, of course, but in revelation and actual existence down here)'. I was wondering if this beginning would fit in with your thought in general of beginning.

J.T. It does; only historically the word 'beginning', precedes what you are speaking of. That is to say, the beginning of things in Christ actually; so that it is not simply the incarnation here at first; the incarnation is a little later. The incarnation is in verse 14. The Word became flesh; but what we are now committing ourselves to is the beginning of everything. Whatever it could be or whatever it was the Word, the Person designated here as the Word, was there. He did not begin there. We should see how the idea of beginning comes in in that sense in John's epistle, but in this gospel the beginning is of everything; whatever could be called beginning; whatever you may think of or say, the Word was there. So that the soul is impregnated with the idea of the eternity of the Lord Jesus Christ, whom we call the second Person of the Deity; that He was there, and not only so, but He was with God there. He was associated with God there and not only that but He Himself was God. So that you can have nothing more plainly and firmly stated than the words we

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have here. It is for us to get the idea in our souls as to the Person of the Lord Jesus.

J.H. The beginning precedes the "all things" in verse 3.

J.T. It does.

N.B. I wondered why Luke carries forward the title of the period of the Lord's humanity in verse 2 of his gospel: "those who ... were eye-witnesses of and attendants on the Word".

J.T. It is because he was in the current conversation of the moment; holy conversation it would be, of course, because they were all believers. The conversation included the Lord Jesus, and Luke is saying that there were those who were eye-witnesses of and attendants on Him, so that Luke is going to say things that can be counted as reliable, absolutely reliable, as inspired.

S.McC. In regard to our brother's remark, is it not important that the 'Word' is an appellation that is connected with the Lord in humanity? It does not belong to Him in the pre-incarnate conditions in Deity; it is not carried forward from the pre-incarnate condition of Deity into humanity.

J.T. That is good to make that clear. It acquired currency, it acquired use among the early believers and it had become known among them. Luke takes it up as John does only not in the same depth in which John does but it is the same Person.

R.R.T. And when it says, "And the Word became flesh" it does not mean that He was known as the Word before He became flesh.

J.T. It does not. That is the thing that ought to be kept clear in our minds, in our present inquiry. It has been the subject of controversy for many a day as to whether Sonship in Christ and the Word in Christ here are expressions that could be carried back into the circumstances or conditions of Deity. They refer to the Lord becoming Man in humanity --

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the humanity of Christ. That is where they are to be understood.

J.W.W. Would Luke help us to understand the first line of that hymn, "Thou art the blest incarnate Word" (Hymn 11)?

J.T. Quite so. That had to be gone into very carefully. It took much time to go into all that, because the subject was very much on the minds of the brethren at the time. It was necessary for those engaged in the revision of the hymn book to go into all these attendant facts so that the truth should get into our hymns; that we should sing the truth. The best way of getting things is to sing them. "Thou art the blest incarnate Word" (Hymn 11) is accurate.

A.N.W. What has just been said about the Word would equally apply to the appellation 'Christ Jesus' in Philippians 2. "Christ Jesus; who, subsisting in the form of God", verse 6. We have no difficulty about that. Why should we have any difficulty about the Word?

J.T. Quite so. The term 'Christ Jesus' is already known and spoken of. It belongs to the earliest breathings of the Spirit in relation to Christianity and so the use of the word logos; only it required more place because of learning having to be dealt with. Much learning was brought into Christianity, by persons who would, perhaps, oppose it or nullify it or discredit it, and this learning had to be met and it was met in the writings of John. Hence the expression 'John's simple page' as over against what the human mind would evolve from the use of books; books that were spoken of at Ephesus; fifty thousand pieces of silver, it was said, was the price; showing how much there was in the sense of books to be met. And John's writings are intended in that sense to meet that, and it was the most simple of all language, and yet the most profound.

S.McC. You have pointed out yourself that even

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the prepositions, small as they may seem, in this chapter are like a sword turning every way to guard the truth regarding the Person of our Lord.

J.T. Quite so. The Lord helped the brethren. He helped us, and hence, I believe, the truth remains with us. There may be some defects in some of these hymns yet, but in general the truth remains in the writings.

J.R.H. Would you say a little more about the value of hymns? You spoke of them as the best way to get the truth into us.

J.T. I do not know, but I would say the use of poetry is divine; it is of God. Exodus 15 may be cited as showing how the truth was interwoven in poetry and song; it is sung by Moses and the children of Israel, and then Miriam is brought into it to confirm it femininely; that is, to make the thing feminine in its character and attractive in that sense.

S.McC. Do you have any difficulty in singing hymn 1?

J.T. I would be afraid to bring that up because we have not time, but I would say in brief the hymn will need to be revised to make it fit in with the truth, if the Lord sees fit to have a revision, which is a question now. If there has to be one, of course, the matter will have to come up.

Ques. Those that have attacked the Scriptures have attacked our hymns as well.

J.T. Just so. What has been just said ought to be carried through in our minds, but there is not time now to discuss the question of hymns, as to whether some of them might not be deleted or revised. That is open to a question.

E.G.McA. Do the first eighteen verses of this chapter lay before us the essential principles opened up in Christianity regarding the deity of Christ, His coming into manhood, the existence of grace and truth and the revelation of God? Are they not the foundation

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of the truth which the enemy would attack and which we are to be well formed in?

J.T. That is what I would say exactly. If we go through John's gospel we shall have to take up things that are somewhat looser than the wording in this chapter, but I would say that what you said is about the truth. These eighteen verses cover the whole matter. They are really prefatory in that sense covering the whole book. After we look briefly into them we can very well proceed in this reading and retain in our minds that these verses are prefatory and cover the whole of John's gospel, and such an expression as John himself uses when he uses the word 'also', which is remarkable, in keeping with Paul's way in 1 Corinthians. He used a similar form. John says, "I suppose that not even the world itself would contain the books written", John 21:25. So that we can see how the river widens out into infinitude. That is the very word also in John's mind. The work was so wonderful and enormous that he has to say, "I suppose that not even the world itself would contain the books written", John 21:25. I think we can leave it just in that sense; leave our minds open to these wonderful things and look into them and learn them. So far we have dealt with the Lord's humanity and now we have to come down to the incarnation. We have spoken of Him in the state of Deity. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God". That is so far what we have. "He was in the beginning with God". Then we have the statement as to creation. "All things received being through him, and without him not one [thing] received being which has received being". That is a settled matter as to creation. Then in verse 4, "In him was life, and the life was the light of men". You might say that is covered in the incarnation. So it is; but it is not stressed here as to incarnation. It is simply a question that life was

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in Christ and that it was light. The life was the light of men. Life began light. Life is substantial; light is hardly that, although we must depend on what is substantial for it. Light is the thing we are now to think of, and it was for men, not for angels. We cannot branch out into the angelic order of being or the realm of angels. We confine ourselves to men in our consideration of the matter. We are dealing with men. The light is for them and, therefore, angels can hardly enter into the thing fully. They cannot learn things as we do.

C.H.H. Would they be included in verse 3? They received their being through Him. That would be a greater thought than Genesis.

J.T. Just so.

A.N.W. Is man included in the "all things"?

J.T. "All things received being through him, and without him not one thing received being which has received being". I suppose it covers the universe in the sense of creation -- "all things".

S.McC. Does the mediatorial side enter into that verse: "All things received being through him", or is it rather the Source side, He being God, that is in mind?

J.T. Well, it is more personal, I would think. God is dealing with them personally. The mediatorial side comes in more accurately in Hebrews: "by whom also he made the worlds", Hebrews 1:2. That is instrumental; but I would take this to be entirely Himself. "All things received being through him, and without him not one thing received being which has received being". The flesh "received being". You might say, well, God was the Author of the action, but I think it is better to leave it as it is. The Person who is acting is Himself, the divine Person, and He is God Himself. So that we can leave out stressing the mediatorial side here.

C.A.M. The expression is used to the church in

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Laodicea: "the beginning of the creation of God", Revelation 3:14 in speaking of the Person of Christ.

J.T. Without saying He is the Creator; although it is inferred, but that is another setting of things. He is the beginning of the creation of God.

W.B. In Hebrews it says, "upholding all things by the word of his power", Hebrews 1:3. That is the Son's power. Does that fit in?

J.T. Well, that is mediatorial. I am very doubtful about stressing that side here because the point is to bring out the Deity of the Lord Jesus Himself. He is Himself God and He can do things; not in the mediatorial sense simply, but being God He can do things of Himself.

A.S.B. How do you understand "being", "all things received being"?

J.T. The word "being" there would be having come into existence. Things came into evidence and, of course, we could look into Hebrews if we had time, but we have not, but when we have time we can look into Hebrews from the mediatorial side and see how the 'being' has not come about of the things that are made. It is purely a matter of God. That matter flows out from what God is, if the brethren follow what I am saying in Hebrews 11. "For in the power of this the elders have obtained testimony. By faith we apprehend that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that that which is seen should not take its origin from things which appear", Hebrews 11:2,3. That is what I was alluding to. The scientific men as they are called, would unravel everything and give account of everything. This passage refutes it all. "By faith we apprehend that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that that which is seen should not take its origin from things which appear", Hebrews 11:3. That is to say, matter is not on the surface; it flows out from what God is. We cannot give an account of it either, save as from God.

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A.N.W. He created visible and invisible things. Would you suggest some of the invisible things?

J.T. "The invisible things of him are perceived, being apprehended by the mind through the things that are made, both his eternal power and divinity", Romans 1:20. Is that what you mean?

A.N.W. I was thinking of Colossians: "because by him were created all things, the things in the heavens and the things upon the earth, the visible and the invisible", then what he goes on to say enlightens us, "whether thrones, or lordships, or principalities, or authorities: all things have been created by him and for him", Colossians 1:16.

J.T. Your question is as to what is visible and invisible. It is a question of whether we can go into it. Pardon me for restricting us, but we have so little time and I would prefer to look into that matter, if the Lord will, as to what is visible and invisible. We can easily talk of what is visible at the present time. "The invisible things of him", Romans 1:20. They are clearly seen; they are to be seen.

A.N.W. The "all things" in verse 3 would cover everything of our chapter.

J.T. Just so; very good.

C.H.H. In Colossians 1:16 you get both sides of the matter, the mediatorial side and what He did in His essential Being. The first 'by', would be similar to this verse in John; what He did in His essential Being, whereas the second 'by' is more what is mediatorial. I was referring to the two notes on the 'by'.

J.T. We begin with love, that is in verse 13, "and translated us into the kingdom of the Son of his love: in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins; who is image of the invisible God, firstborn of all creation; because by him were created all things, the things in the heavens and the things upon the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones,

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or lordships, or principalities, or authorities: all things have been created by him and for him. And he is before all, and all things subsist together by him", Colossians 1:13 - 17. What is your point, please?

C.H.H. The first 'by', in verse 16 according to the note is what He did in His own essential being, but the other 'by' is what He did as a Mediator. I thought the first 'by', would correspond to John 1:3.

J.T. "By him were created all things, the things in the heavens and the things upon the earth" That is to say, that is His own action as God. Quite so. Then it goes on, "the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or lordships, or principalities, or authorities: all things have been created by him". That is the second 'by', you have in mind.

C.H.H. That is mediatorial.

J.T. The first 'by' refers to note k which reads, "Lit. 'in him', in the power of whose person. He was the one whose intrinsic power characterised the creation. It exists as his creature". Now let us get the next note, note b: "the instrumental power". The one is the power in the Person and the other is the instrumental power, and the 'eis' is under note c: "'for'. These three prepositions, en, dia, eis, show Christ to be the characteristic power, the active instrument, and the end in creation". I think there is a great deal of instruction in what you are calling attention to, quite in keeping with Colossians.

R.W.S. The great person, the great creature in mind in all these creative acts is man. "The life was the light of men". In all these created things you have been speaking of men are in mind as the greatest of all, corresponding with Genesis 2. "In him was life, and the life was the light of men".

J.T. Yes; you mean men are in view. Now if we can proceed to verse 4, "In him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light

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appears in darkness, and the darkness apprehended it not". That was the position. The darkness continues; it is not dispersed. It does not apprehend things. That is the position up to verse 5. And then we have the question of how the Lord is light. "There was a man sent from God, his name John. He came for witness, that he might witness concerning the light, that all might believe through him. He was not the light, but that he might witness concerning the light. The true light was that which, coming into the world, lightens every man". So that Christ is light in the fourth day of Genesis 1. Christ is seen as light. He lightens every man. He sheds His light on every man and helps us to apprehend things as a man having his eyes opened; such as the Lord opening the eyes of the man at Bethsaida. He saw all things clearly. The whole realm of created things is in mind; not that man would see the whole thing at once, but the idea is what can be seen. Therefore, He sheds light on every man, so that they do not need to be pagans. They do not need to be Jews. The whole matter is in Christianity, and hence we have the account of Christianity in verse 11. "He came to his own, and his own received him not; but as many as received him, to them gave he the right to be children of God, to those that believe on his name; who have been born, not of blood, nor of flesh's will, nor of man's will, but of God". So that we have the whole position now taken account of here in these verses, which are an epitome of the whole matter. That is the Christian, whatever others may say of him, has a right that no other has, and that is the right to be one of the children of God. Their birth, their origin is understood. It is not simply that they are created but they are born. They have a place as born; so that we have a full account of our position; whatever people may say, this is our position. We have a right to take the place of being children of

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God. "Not of blood, nor of flesh's will, nor of man's will, but of God"

G.W. Does Luke help us in relation to the words of Simeon? "A light for revelation of the Gentiles and the glory of thy people Israel", Luke 2:32.

J.T. Showing how things took form in the history of the truth; the Lord being in the arms of Simeon -- he took the Babe in his arms -- most touching, and said, "Lo, this child is set for the fall and rising up of many in Israel", Luke 2:34. But He is for the revelation of the Gentiles. That is how Luke meets the matter, and, of course, it fits with John. He is the unveiling of things; therefore, in Luke and John we are enabled to take account of things as they are. After that we have an account of the incarnation itself in verse 14. We have the incarnation; that is the point. You get in these verses an epitome of the whole matter, so that we might well finish with these verses, if we did not have to touch a little on John's epistle. We will have to devote nearly all the time this afternoon to John's epistle, because it is a question of 'that which' was seen in the Person incarnate, in flesh and blood.

A.R. Is sonship in mind in incarnation according to verse 14?

J.T. Quite so. "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we have contemplated his glory, a glory as of an only-begotten with a father), full of grace and truth (John bears witness of him, and he has cried, saying, This was he of whom I said, He that comes after me is preferred before me, for he was before me); for of his fulness we all have received, and grace upon grace. For the law was given by Moses: grace and truth subsists through Jesus Christ. No one has seen God at any time; the only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him". Therefore we have come to the end of the matter as an epitome, so that we will carry it in our minds.

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R.H.S. Does Paul fit in here? "And confessedly the mystery of piety is great. God has been manifested in flesh, has been justified in the Spirit", 1 Timothy 3:16. "The Word became flesh". It seems to be more the mystery side. John does not give an account of His birth, but he says, "The Word became flesh". It is the mystery side.

J.T. It is. "And confessedly the mystery of piety is great". The practical side of things as to the need of piety in our ministry. "God has been manifested in flesh, has been justified in the Spirit, has appeared to angels, has been preached among the nations, has been believed on in the world, has been received up in glory", 1 Timothy 3:16. It might be regarded as a sort of poetic statement of the whole truth of Christianity, but very brief. Some think it is some piece of poetry that Paul would adduce to show what he was dealing with and setting out among the Gentiles.

Ques. Why is there no mention of His death in that verse?

J.T. Just so; it is not put there. I suppose brevity was in mind, as it is always in mind when we are dealing with literature, especially poetry.

A.P.T. In John 1:2 it is the emphatic 'He'. Does that refer to His deity? But then in the last clause of verse 18 it is the same 'he' That is the same Person in Manhood.

J.T. The emphatic 'He' is in both verse 2 and verse 18, "he hath declared him". The word 'him' is not in the original necessarily, but it may be. The idea is the declaration has come about and it has come about through this Person. It is a question of declaration, not revelation. "No one has seen God at any time; the only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him]". As if the idea of declaration is left open, but it is the Son who has done it, and only the Son who has done it. If we leave out the word 'him' that is the position.

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It is left open, and hence the great stress is on declaration.

S.McC. Do you regard the declaration as bearing back on, "No one has seen God at any time", or does it refer to the Father that John alludes to later: "And I have made known to them thy name", John 17:26?

J.T. I think this is wider and more like something that might happen in a court-house; a proclamation of some immense thing. The thing is declared officially without saying what it was. "He hath declared him". The declaration is made, great as it is and perhaps unspoken but the idea is there of declaration, and it is public, a manifest thing, a declared thing.

A.N.W. Therefore more God than the Father.

J.T. Quite so.

J.A.P. Is that why in John 8 the Lord brings in His own deity? "Before Abraham was, I am", (verse 58).

J.T. His deity is inferred in what is said here in the word 'declared'. The emphatic 'he' alludes to the fact that it is God Himself really. You understand that in your mind. No one has seen God but the declaration is made.

W.McK. Would you help us as to why it is the Son rather than the Word?

J.T. It is to bring out the greatness of the Son and the place He has in affection. We have already touched on it in Colossians. "The kingdom of the Son of his love", Colossians 1:13. We have already had that in Colossians, but now it is a question of declaration, and it is a question of a Person; the place He has in love, because the passage really deals with that. "No one has seen God at any time; the only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him". It is a beautiful expression that could apply to no one but the Son of God, that is to say, the second Person in the Deity-the Person who can

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Himself say He is God. "The only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father". That is to say, it brings out the personal place He has with the Father. What a place He has in the circle of the Deity, as we may say. He is predominant in activity. He is the doer of things and if it be a question of declaration He does it. Whatever the thing is, He does it. And "the only-begotten Son" is a question of affection. The preposition is 'in'. That is to say, He has come into the position. He has come into it, which means plainly it was not a question of eternal existence. He did not come into that, but He came into Sonship. That is the point in this verse, that He has come into it. The preposition means that. He has come into Sonship. He has come into that place and in that place He makes the declaration. So that love is bound up in it, and He is bound up in love.

G.MacPh. Does this link up with Genesis 1? God Himself in creation, and now in the creation He must make declaration?

J.T. I would go with that. If you bring Genesis 2 into it; only the position here is greater than that.

"The only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him". He has come into it, only it refers to Him as Man. The point is to show He is that. No one could bear this title but Himself. He is the only-begotten Son. It could not be applied to the Spirit or the Father. The application is to the Son, the second Person.

C.H.H. Would declaration apply to revelation?

J.T. I think revelation is more personal. I was alluding to the idea of a court-house; the president's proclamation-anything of that kind. It is official; but then here the point is to stress it is the Person who makes it.

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"BEGINNING" (5)

1 John 1:1 - 10; 2 John 1 - 13

J.T. The second letter is read because it is felt the feminine side should be before us in closing, to see the responsibility attached to it, even to the extent of the exercise of discipline, that there should be balance. But what is mainly in mind, of course, is the first epistle, and, too, the fact that while it alludes to the Lord Jesus as Man, the neuter is used: 'that'; "that which was from the beginning", because of the need of substance in all our thoughts and all our enquiries. Luke has that in mind, too, because in alluding to the Lord He uses the words, "holy thing". He says, "wherefore the holy thing also which shall be born shall be called Son of God", Luke 1:35. So that identification is in mind in the thought of substance.

S.McC. The beginning that is alluded to now in the epistle -- does that have in mind the incarnation, historically, I mean?

J.T. Well, not in as formal a way as we have it in the beginning of the gospel where it is said, "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us", John 1:14. The allusion there is to condition; that is, the condition of incarnation.

C.H.H. Does this refer to what occurred after the anointing?

J.T. Well, it seems as if the Spirit of God would engage us with the Person in this sense; that is to say, the Person as incarnate, without stressing the anointing.

C.A.M. Do you connect this with the verse you alluded to in Luke's gospel, "the holy thing"? Is that to be viewed in connection with the fact "that our hands have handled"? That alludes to the

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apostles' hands. There was something, I thought, concrete that could be handled.

J.T. Well, quite; and love, too. Simeon may be taken as representative of initial affection in that sense: "he received him into his arms, and blessed God, and said, Lord, now thou lettest thy bondman go, according to thy word, in peace; for mine eyes have seen thy salvation", Luke 2:29,30. And so as to our brother's suggestion as to this passage in John being possibly an allusion to the Lord as anointed, it seems to me that the whole Person is in mind in His history. Luke would stress that side, how He was taken into Simeon's arms, who immediately became a worshipper, for he blessed God; and how the Lord is viewed in Luke as born, and as a boy, which carries with it, because of age, some responsibility. So Mary connects responsibility immediately with her own position. She was really remiss in what had happened. In truth the ark was there, although not named. And so the Lord found His way Himself without having any reference to His parents. Mary said, "Behold thy father and I have sought thee distressed", Luke 2:48, but He immediately says, with a suggestion of reproach, "Why is it that ye have sought me? Did ye not know that I ought to be occupied in my Father's business?" Luke 2:49. So that He is in the presence of the universe already in responsibility, even if that responsibility or measure of it is to be limited in any way, as doubtless it was, because it seems so, by Himself, "And he went down with them and came to Nazareth, and he was in subjection to them", Luke 2:51. He is there, we might say, in infinitude. The Person is there. His worth and dignity are already alluded to in our brother's remarks as to the "holy thing also which shall be born shall be called Son of God", Luke 1:35. The immediate link between the birth as the 'holy thing' and the Son of God is to be noted; because the Son of God is the Person who is to be in full

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exercise of responsibility, so to say, or at least full administrative charge in relation to God. And so it is said of Paul in view of this that he straightway began to preach that Jesus is Son of God. It is not the anointing but the Person, although Luke would stress the anointing; but the Person is in mind in these remarks.

A.N.W. You are extending the "we have seen" and "we have heard" beyond the apostles?

J.T. Yes, although we have no doubt to keep in mind that they are particularly in mind. "That which was from the beginning, that which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes; that which we contemplated, and our hands handled, concerning the word of life", and then further, "that which we have seen and heard we report to you, that ye also may have fellowship with us". That is, the idea of the Son of God, the idea of the Person is there; although the anointing may not be there at the outset and was not, the Person is there; the Person in responsibility, seeing about His Father's business.

A.H.P. Is that all to add lustre to the greatness of the incarnation? In the end of Luke He invites them to "Handle me and see, for a spirit has not flesh and bones as ye see me having", Luke 24:39. Is there some thought of magnifying the greatness of the incarnation?

J.T. The passage alluded to is Luke 24 and what is in mind is His identification as in the midst, who He was; so that it is the full Person (I am using that word just for the sake of stress); He is there. He was invisible for a while for He did not emerge from Emmaus immediately into the assembly at Jerusalem. The mystery side is left open. Where had He been? He had vanished but where had He been? Late in the day He is seen standing in the midst of them; not anywhere but in the midst of them. The result

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is perturbation, and the Lord quiets them; for it is not a time of rebuke. It is a time of reality in them, and what they were to Him, and how soon they can be used; how quickly He can render them useful to Him in the testimony. And so He is seen standing in their midst. It is not said that He came; where He was is left open, as if we are to be reminded of inscrutability even there.

A.P.T. This morning we were speaking of "as many as received him", John 1:12. Simeon received Him in his arms. Is that characteristic of the family entitled to be called children of God?

J.T. You are stressing the fact that they received Him and as having received Him they are recognised as children of God?

A.P.T. Yes; in connection with the Person; not His anointing, but Him.

J.T. Well, quite so. It is just a question now of the resurrection of the Person. Everything must hinge on that; the identification of the Person.

N.B. You just mentioned inscrutability. I would like to ask if these 'thats' involve inscrutability in the Lord's Person or whether they do not go that far.

J.T. Well, the neuter being used, I suppose, is to stress reality. The word 'thing' had already been used -- "the holy thing" which must mean reality and, too, substance. So here it says, "That which was from the beginning, that which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes; that which we contemplated, and our hands handled". I am not sure that inscrutability is necessarily stressed; I think it is rather that reality is there. There is no mistake about it; the real Person is there.

C.A.M. Is it right to say that what is stressed is a Person who is so infinitely great as He was, yet within our range, within the faculties we have to apprehend?

J.T. Yes; and He can be seen as the apostle says, "which we have seen with our eyes; that which

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we contemplated, and our hands handled, concerning the word of life". There He is reachable and touchable; and you might say, familiar in His relations with them. As the narrative goes on you see how much it was so; because Christianity must be founded on reality; a real Person in the relation testified to. The enemy was just ready to deny God; Matthew stresses that.

S.McC. If I gather rightly from what you say you carry this beginning right into Luke 1 and 2?

J.T. I should say that; and if it be a question of reality, well, it is important that there is a real Babe and a real Boy and a real young Man, speaking with the greatest reverence; a Man of thirty years of age. All that is most important as regards reality. Christianity is not like any of the Eastern or other religions; it is founded on fact, incontestable fact.

J.T.Jr. The Father's voice saying, "In whom I have found my delight" would mean it would point all the way back to His birth. His delight was in every movement of His.

J.T. Quite so. What a time it must have been, and it is a question for each of us as to the Father and His feelings; these feelings of the Father and the Son and the Spirit of God. Some of us during the past six or eight years have gone through experiences never gone through before by us or even by Christians, and we have found God in them. In the most remarkable instances, the most remarkable occurrences, we have found God in our circumstances. It is to strengthen our hearts and make us real, both in regard of one another and in regard of the service of God and the testimony in general.

S.McC. In these expressions in relation to what we are saying, "the eternal life, which was with the Father", would you carry that into the state of Babehood and Youth and Manhood that Luke brings out in such a way in the opening chapters?

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J.T. What we have already said about it is that suitable conditions and provisions are made; suitable, seemly conditions; swaddling clothes are there and suitable clothes all along, suggesting right feelings. That is to say, in persons who are the subjects of God's work, in whom this should be seen. And so Luke 1 and Luke 2 is of the utmost importance as to what happened; first, as to the incarnation; as to the conception and the incarnation and the babehood and boyhood of the Lord, and how He is spoken of; how Elizabeth speaks of Him; how she speaks of John, the unborn child, moving in the presence of Mary, the mother of our Lord. These are all facts that are of utmost importance as to the reality of Christianity.

S.J.H. Is what you are saying so necessary in the way of substance with John that what he closes with is that we might have a conscious knowledge of it all? He closes the epistle with a conscious knowledge of it.

J.T. Yes; and ending with the wonderful fact in the first epistle: "He is the true God and eternal life", 1 John 5:20. He has that glorious Person in mind and yet inscrutability; for He is God. Yet as to what was said a moment ago as to what the Father might not, or might have found in the babe days of our Lord, in the early years of His life, what relations there might be -- it seems as if the Spirit of God would show us that things were seemly, not fantastic or extraordinary in any way. They were seemly. It was a real babe, needing all the attention of a babe. Seemliness is expressed in the testimony of God in Luke, that things should be so.

J.T.Jr. Great care is taken in Luke's gospel at the beginning in connection with the kind of persons who had to do with the Lord.

J.T. So it is the little Child and its mother, not its father. The Magi found Him with His mother,

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which is seemly and what we might expect; with all the instruction and knowledge she received that she should be His caretaker. She was eventually made the mother of John the evangelist, showing that she was usable in the Lord's hand, and thoroughly subject, although there were exceptions, of course. At the same time she says, "Behold the bondmaid of the Lord, be it to me according to thy word", Luke 1:38 showing that everything was perfect in that sense and heaven looked on. We have touches in the prophetic word, of course, such as Samson's mother, Hannah and other mothers that we may transfer to Mary, for God would not stint what is mentioned in that way or in any way in the measure in which it might contribute to the glory of Christ. Any incident that might contribute in any way to the glory of Christ would be mentioned.

S.McC. It would be right to say that Mary was but the vessel connected with this unique matter of the incarnation. The Lord took not one single thing from her in regard of what we are now dwelling on, did He? He took nothing from Mary.

J.T. Yes, quite so; that is, in His humanity; although it might be said that she was His mother and His humanity came through her, but it will not do to say that, because God is His Father. He is the Son of God and His humanity in that sense must be attributed to God.

J.R.H. The incarnation would be like the unleavened cake of fine flour mingled with the oil seen in the oblation.

J.T. That we might devote ourselves to the priesthood so that we might take up things rightly. The Spirit of God just says enough in Luke on these points to illuminate and to enlighten us as to the Lord. There is much, of course, that could be said as to Mary's feelings, and Joseph's feelings and Simeon's feelings and Anna's feelings. This would be a priestly

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matter; those who were touching and seeing and handling the precious Babe would all be priests. And it is necessary that we should so regard it; that in Christianity this should be enveloped in all that is needed to guard the Person involved.

R.W.S. We should take time to contemplate. It is not only seen with our eyes but that which we have contemplated.

J.T. I am glad you mention that because it suggests that affection and intelligence are called for, when you bring in the idea of contemplation into such a matter. What could not a person like Anna say, and Elizabeth, and John's father, Zacharias, as restored fully and able to speak? What would they not say? There would be a conversation suitable that you might expect from them. All that enters into Christianity.

J.A.P. Would you link up the contemplation with the beginning of Luke where Mary kept all these things in her mind and pondered them in her heart?

J.T. Just so.

A.N.W. Is there any distinction between the contemplation in the first epistle and the contemplation of His glory in the gospel?

J.T. Well, I have no doubt there is a certain selection in the language in the epistle here and the gospel, in the idea of contemplation. It is said in the gospel: "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we have contemplated his glory, a glory as of an only-begotten with a father)", John 1:14. The word is 'tabernacled' meaning that there would be room for the display of what might be there in the way of adornment in the Person. "And we have contemplated his glory, a glory as of an only-begotten with a father", John 1:14. The word 'with' there is intelligible to all of us. There is a note as to it: '(para, with a genitive as here, means'on the part of','from with'gives the sense. But this must not be understood in

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the sense of'with'merely)'. The word 'with' -- the idea would be that we are on a common level, so to speak; that there is a platform on which divine Persons can be contemplated; not that the Father is seen displayed visibly in the sense in which the Son could be, but there is the thought of contemplation, and the 'with' would link the Father and Son together. "As of an only-begotten with a father, full of grace and truth". And then, "for of his fulness we all have received, and grace upon grace". I think that paragraph from verse 14 to 18 of John 1 is to add to the whole matter as to what Christ was in relation with God as His Father, and what movement there must have been; what holy movements drawing out the Father's affections there must have been.

G.MacPh. Would hearing and seeing go together? Hearing involves teaching. Contemplation and handling and seeing involve the substance.

J.T. Yes. "That which was from the beginning, that which we have heard". That alludes to speaking, "which we have seen with our eyes"; which would imply the means of contemplation and the scope of contemplation; "that which we contemplated, and our hands handled, concerning the word of life". And then the bracket which enlarges on the matter: "(and the life has been manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and report to you the eternal life, which was with the Father, and has been manifested to us:) that which we have seen and heard we report to you, that ye also may have fellowship with us". The idea of report is immediately added; that is, what could be reported in the sense of eternal life.

C.H.H. Would the expression, "that which we have heard" be an advance on Luke? That is, what the apostles had contemplated would go beyond what is contemplated in Luke.

J.T. I do not suppose there is anything more than what John says here; "which we have contemplated".

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I do not suppose there is anything more in it than that fact; they were witnesses. They were full competent witnesses, and of course, that is necessary, because they were apostles, and the idea of fellowship is suggested here, that they had something of their own which is called fellowship.

A.N.W. That is the basis of this report. We cannot say we have seen what they have seen, but we have attended to their report.

J.T. Quite so.

N.B. Is there a relation between the eternal life which was with the Father, and the Word which was with God?

J.T. Well, there must be; only what John is putting down here is his own competency and the competency of the twelve -- the eleven and himself, to bear testimony; that there is ample, full, complete competency in the testimony rendered; and John is concerned about that.

A.N.W. Would not the latter be in time and the former in past eternity? "The Word was with God, and the Word was God", John 1:1. Would that be past eternity, before time?

J.T. Yes, quite so. What can we say except what is said, that He was with God? I mean to say, the Spirit of God does not give us anything more, any terms as to the Deity in its infinite attractiveness, save that They were there; that divine Persons were there, there intelligibly with each other.

A.N.W. Would "with the Father" involve time and incarnation?

J.T. Well, quite so; I should say that, too.

S.McC. In the conflict over eternal life, the attack of the enemy was to make eternal life a condition that existed before time; but the Scriptures do not present it that way.

J.T. No, they do not. What they do present is the Person who is the subject of the testimony, and

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while that is carried back to eternity, yet there is nothing to indicate what the actual relations were; but when the testimony is rendered, then we have to consider the anointing, showing what was there and then the power of the apostles, too, because they were anointed, too. They were rendered capable of bearing testimony to what was there.

A.R. Is there anything in the holy Scriptures to tell us what was before time?

J.T. We have the statement, of course, that "the Word was with God", John 1:1. That is a fact. The mere word 'with' involves some association. It conveys the idea of association, because it is carried through to the Paraclete, to the Holy Spirit. But He is with the apostles in a real sense so as to be understood. The Father and the Son, or the divine Persons, to leave it just as it is, were with each other. This, of course, is something that can be positively stated. Why we should proceed further I do not know. I think there is much opened up to us to fill our souls, and perhaps we should not be too much desirous of having something spoken because it is so delicate a matter. It is always dangerous to say anything but exactly what Scripture says. And what Scripture says is, "and the Word was with God, and the Word was God", John 1:1.

J.R.H. The Lord spoke of the glory that He had along with the Father before the world was.

J.T. That is an allusion to this. I am glad you mentioned that. It comes where you expect it to come, in John 17, where we should expect a full revelation of what He would have us to see. The veil is lifted away for us to see in, but it is rendered very obscure; we cannot say much.

F.N.W. "For thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world", John 17:24.

J.T. That is the same idea.

G.MacPh. Reading John 1:2 may be instructive:

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"and the life has been manifested", but in speaking of the report he says "the eternal life". Is that what they saw here on earth?

J.T. Quite so. Therefore it is "concerning the word of life", that is to say, what the eyes saw and the hands handled was concerning the word of life; not exactly concerning God and the Father and the Son, but concerning eternal life. That was the great issue in the controversy alluded to, but it is the point all the way down; what can be spoken of in the sense of eternal life.

R.H. Would the forty days the Lord was on earth after His resurrection have a bearing on this?

J.T. Well, there is something there to think of, because a good many of them were there. There were forty days. Luke tells us that in Acts 1, "having by the Holy Spirit charged the apostles whom he had chosen, he was taken up; to whom also he presented himself living, after he had suffered, with many proofs; being seen by them during forty days". So that there was a good period of time in which they could take account of the Lord. Doubtless He was not always visible to them, and the inscrutable side would be, no doubt, in evidence. But it goes on to say, "and speaking of the things which concern the kingdom of God; and, being assembled with them, commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to await the promise of the Father, which (said he) ye have heard of me. For John indeed baptised with water, but ye shall be baptised with the Holy Spirit after now not many days", Acts 1:3,4. So that I think we can, in a holy way, visualise something of what went on during those forty days. Luke does not mention it until this chapter, and surely he now mentions that to verify further what he intended by the Spirit to further disclose, and the treatise embraces the whole book of Acts. What things there must have been! And so Paul in his time in his

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writing sees it is needed to mention that the Lord had been seen of Cephas, and of the twelve, and of five hundred brethren at once, and of James, then of all the apostles, and finally as Paul said, "last of all, as to an abortion, he appeared to me also", 1 Corinthians 15:8; showing that what Paul saw was just added on to the general position; what had been seen during the forty days before the Holy Spirit came down, and then what was seen as the Holy Spirit came down. Paul's experiences were just added to that, showing the full thought is there as to the Lord as He is now; what is to be apprehended now until He comes.

R.R.T. Would you say that would be included in verse 3, "He presented himself living after he had suffered, with many proofs", Acts 1:3? It does not enlarge on what the many proofs were, but it would contain a lot.

J.T. I suppose the King James Version translators felt the need of putting 'infallible' in there so as to enlarge on the thing; but it is just "many proofs" really. We are not told how many, but much must have preceded.

W.McK. Is this matter of reality to help us as to a clear knowledge? In 1 John 2:13 it says, "I write to you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning". That is a matter of reality to help us in regard of knowledge.

J.T. Well, what we are saying together now is to help us increase our knowledge and, of course, we are to increase our spiritual power and knowledge because the Lord is surely aiming to increase our knowledge, to make persons fit for the testimony out of us. And so this chapter in the Acts becomes of first-rate importance, because it seems to be almost a second thought of Luke's; not that he would speak of it in that sense except to make the idea clear. The first treatise was left unfinished. We do not get a complete

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finish. Luke says, "And he led them out as far as Bethany, and having lifted up his hands, he blessed them. And it came to pass as he was blessing them, he was separated from them and was carried up into heaven", Luke 24:51 Well, that is how the matter is finished, and we can see that Christianity can hardly be left thus. Heaven would not leave it thus. The Lord would not leave it thus. The Spirit of God as come down from heaven would not leave it thus, and hence much time must have elapsed in order to bring the truth out, extending to Paul's times and to Paul himself. Hence, perhaps we have not thought of it as we are now mentioning it, that much time had to be expended from the divine standpoint to bring out the knowledge needed. That there should be real knowledge, too; not merely things written down, but real knowledge amongst the disciples. And so Christianity is a real thing, or has to do with real things, and the things mentioned just now are enough to prove it was real.

J.McK. It is a matter of what we have. Paul preached Jesus as the Son of God. In 1 John 5 we find, "that God has given to us eternal life; and this life is in his Son. He that has the Son has life; he that has not the Son of God has not life". What we have brings us to what you have in mind. God has committed to us certain things that we have received.

J.T. Just so; and that is completed in the sense that He is the true God and eternal life. You might say it is a separate statement at the end of this epistle to ascertain that the Lord Jesus is known here in testimony and in the assembly as coming in and going out among us; that He is the true God and eternal life and it should make us worshipful. It is intended to.

A.N.W. I presume the handling would include Luke 24 and possibly exclude Thomas' handling?

J.T. I would not mind letting all the handling come into it. There must have been much. The

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appendix to John's gospel lets us into much; that is, the three manifestations.

C.H.H. Would Mr. Darby's note to 'handle' referring to Luke 24:39 help? "Handle me and see, for a spirit has not flesh and bones as ye see me having". That is the reference.

J.T. Showing how real the matter was; and now that He is actually in the assembly, we have the facts given. There is a difference between flesh and blood and flesh and bones. The condition of blood is not carried through; it is flesh and bones. That is to say, humanity in that sense, Christ as risen. And so John's epistle would say, "we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is" 1 John 3:2; as if the seeing Him and our own translation, our own change, would synchronise. It is a question of what we see. We shall see Him as He is, and also, we shall have bodies like His present one; like His own glorious body; that is the kind of body we shall have.

J.A.P. What would the Lord mean when He says to Thomas, "Blessed they who have not seen and have believed", John 20:29? Is that our position?

J.T. Well, that is to bring out the superiority of Christianity to the millennium when they will believe what they see; but the Lord is saying that Christianity is superior because we do not see, yet we believe. We believe-it is belief on the basis of our faith; not what we see but our faith.

J.A.P. Does this chapter then cover a greater matter than the report in Romans 10 -- faith comes by report?

J.T. Yes, I think so. This is the apostles personally making the report and so they are to be viewed as a class or group of persons morally fitted for these great things; that is, to make this report. The twelve had this service, to make this report; that is, the report of eternal life in the sense in which it is spoken of here. It is to greatly enhance the idea of

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eternal life, and it gives us instruction as to the great conflicts already gone through about sixty years ago; terrible strife it was, but the Lord stood by the brethren and the truth of eternal life was asserted, and the truth continues. The brethren are able to speak of it now.

C.R.H. Was there any expression of eternal life before the economy?

J.T. You mean of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, the present economy? It is on this basis the gospel is preached and it is preached for the obedience of faith. "In full assurance of faith", Hebrews 10:22. That is the basis of Christianity. We are not able to say much in the sense of what we see, but what we understand by faith.

R.H. Peter in his address to Cornelius' house says in Acts 10, "This man God raised up the third day and gave him to be openly seen, not of all the people, but of witnesses who were chosen before of God, us who have eaten and drunk with him after he arose from among the dead", Acts 10:40,41. Would that be like this?

J.T. Very good. How important it was; the twelve were not all there but there were six persons there with Peter, showing the keeping up of the thought of the importance of witnesses; that Christianity is attested to by accredited witnesses.

Ques. Is that why in chapter 2 in relation to chapter 1 which you are suggesting as a basis on which to work it says, "I write to you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning"?

J.T. Showing how important they were. There are three grades of persons: fathers, young men and little children. The fathers have first place because of their experience and that experience involves knowing Him that is from the beginning.

J.R.H. The Lord in speaking to the disciples says, "Ye too bear witness, because ye are with me from the beginning", John 15:27.

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J.T. That is a good point to bring in here, because it fits in there in John 15 with the break in the gospel, in the whole book; that is, chapter 14. It is chapter 13 really that is the break. Chapter 14 introduces the Spirit. He is called there "the Comforter"; and the twelve "ye also". The Lord means by that that they had a peculiar place. Therefore it is said here, "that ye also may have fellowship with us; and our fellowship is indeed with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ". They are the only ones in that. We are admitted into it and others are admitted into it, but there is no such fellowship properly now they have gone. There are no such men as these twelve men up to that time.

J.McK. Do you get in Acts 1 the expression of the intelligence of the disciples in choosing one to take Judas's place?

J.T. Yes, and so they did what was needed, and it shows what comes out in John 15, following chapter 14; that is, the presence of the Comforter. The twelve apostles are seen as standing alongside of the Spirit. They have a place by themselves, and the Spirit has a place, of course, by Himself; and it is said that He proceeds from with the Father, stressing the word 'with'. That is, He is with the Father and has that position with the Father. He apprehended what the Father's thoughts were when the Lord Jesus went into heaven. That is where the Lord Jesus went, into heaven, and He comes from that point, too.

J.McK. I was thinking more on the line of witness among themselves. It says, "It is necessary therefore, that of the men who have assembled with us all the time in which the Lord Jesus came in and went out among us, beginning from the baptism of John until the day in which he was taken up from us, one of these should be a witness with us of his resurrection", Acts 1:21,22.

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J.T. Just so. That is the period that had taken place when the gospel of John was written, so the twelve were there; the total number was there, and they stood alongside the Spirit. "Ye also" alludes to the place that they have and none will be by them. That is treated of in our chapter in 1 John. The twelve had a place none others had; a fellowship by themselves. They were competent to bear testimony to what they had seen of eternal life, and to the end that the saints may have joy. That it might be a real matter, that their joy might be full.

E.A.L. "And these things write we to you that your joy may be full. And this is the message which we have heard from him, and declare to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all". Then several verses following bring in the 'we'. In this way do we have to see that in this personal report the apostles are stressing that they personally have to be dependent on the Lord?

J.T. Verse 5 is the general position of Christianity; the earlier verses contemplate the twelve and what importance they had in establishing the truth of Christianity. "And this is the message which we have heard from him, and declare to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not practise the truth. But if we walk in the light as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanses us from all sin". So that the position now with the saints generally from John's viewpoint is established in this message, whereas they remain in their place and had a fellowship of their own. And the ground of the testimony, therefore, is incontestable because of these twelve men so accredited and so formed and set down beside the Spirit Himself, as witnesses. But then the Spirit would come down in addition to all this. He proceeded from the Father

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to witness of the Father's affection shown thus as the Lord Jesus went into heaven. He would carry on and tell the saints generally what He could tell them. All that would be included in the gospel.

R.R.T. Would you say that the witness we are speaking of now of the twelve would be the same as what we referred to in chapter 5? "If we receive the witness of men",1 John 5:9. Is that the witness we are speaking of?

J.T. Quite so, showing what God had done. The epistle of John would bring out incontestably the pains God had gone to to bring in a testimony to men. "This is the witness", John says, and he tells the kind of thing that had been witnessed.

R.R.T. But then he goes on to say the witness of God is greater. "And this is the witness, that God has given to us eternal life", 1 John 5:11.

J.T. That is good and goes on to our own formation; how the witness should affect us as having received eternal life. How does it affect us? What a witness it is! Therefore, there is a little word to be said about the lady, the elect lady; having brought the twelve, the apostles, into evidence in what is stated in chapter 1, especially as to righteousness and the confession of sins -- a most important matter for us as Christians. But now we come to this elect lady. "The elder to the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth, and not I only but also all who have known the truth, for the truth's sake which abides in us and shall be with us to eternity"; a remarkable statement. I do not know if you get it just this way elsewhere. And then, "Grace shall be with you, mercy, peace from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love". And then to follow up with what has been already said as to discipline, and how a sister can be used of God in the exercise of discipline, it says, "For many deceivers have gone out into the

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world, they who do not confess Jesus Christ coming in flesh -- this is the deceiver and the antichrist. See to yourselves, that we may not lose what we have wrought, but may receive full wages. Whosoever goes forward and abides not in the doctrine of the Christ has not God. He that abides in the doctrine, he has both the Father and the Son. If anyone come to you and bring not this doctrine, do not receive him into the house, and greet him not; for he who greets him partakes in his wicked works". I thought it would be worthy at the close of our meetings that we might have this sister who is called a lady by the apostle John-that we might have her before us as illustrating what sisters can be in our day in faithfulness to the truth in regard of their children and their local meetings, and in regard of anyone that might come and prove to be unreal and might introduce bad doctrine. How we are to be protected from all this.

L.E.S. Why is the feminine side stressed here?

J.T. Well, we have it mentioned two or three times, and we have another one mentioned, whoever she is, who is worthy of note: "The children of thine elect sister greet thee". Therefore, we have two sisters, two women, women of note, in the ordinary sense, of worth. They are reliable persons who can be trusted in our localities and responsibility placed on them. It seems to me it would be a great asset to our position now if our sisters would awaken to what is possible in the sisterhood.

J.R.H. Is your thought that we should gather something of what we had in the beginning in Genesis, taking on basic ideas so that we might be sound and established and faithful in the doctrine?

J.T. Just so.

J.W.W. Would Sarah's judgment of Ishmael be on the same line, the sisterhood in discipline?

J.T. You mean, "Cast out the maid servant and her son; for the son of the maid servant shall not

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inherit with the son of the free woman", Galatians 4:30. And it is called Scripture, showing how the sayings, the words of a sister can be ennobled and have a place in the testimony, a unique place, because it is called Scripture. What she said to Abraham about Ishmael is called Scripture.

L.E.S. Would all this offset the power operating in system in regard of Jezebel?

J.T. Yes; quite so.

C.H.H. Would John have in mind here what Paul is speaking about in saying Satan beguiled Eve?

J.T. That is the same line. Something has come to one's notice lately as to the place Jehu has in the testimony of God. Certain things have been said of him as if his position in the testimony is somewhat discredited; but in truth Jehu is seen to be a continuous testimony running through two dispensations, showing how a man can be used of God in two dispensations. So we have something like two chapters about Jehu in the second book of Kings and some small bit of testimony to him in the book of Chronicles and the question arose as to whether we do not need to be careful and give witnesses their full scope, whoever they may be. It is a matter of giving them the scope God gives them. And so, while Jehu was a fast driver, let God have His way and let God say what He will about Jehu and let us see how God is pleased to carry the testimony as to Jehu right down to the book of Revelation and give it a great place involving the destruction of Jezebel. That is the idea of his ministry, to destroy the house of Ahab and that runs right down to the great Romish system now.

A.N.W. "Come ... and see my zeal for Jehovah", 2 Kings 10:16.

J.T. Just so.

A.B. Why is it the elect lady and her sister?

J.T. Well, he is speaking at the end of the epistle

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about her sister. "The children of thine elect sister greet thee". That is, she is called an elect lady.

A.B. What is in mind in relation to 'elect'? Is it because of the rarity of this quality found amongst sisters?

J.T. It seems as if the word 'elect' is a first-rate word in the vocabulary of the testimony. I would think it fits in with the Colossian epistle. I think we shall find it operating in relation to the epistle to Colosse, in a vital way, and it is intended to encourage sisters. What is opened to sisters in the sense of importance in the testimony; not a matter of personal importance or distinction, but importance as to these matters because of its value, because heaven appraises it in that way. This sister, who is doubtless well known to the elect lady, is there, and both of them have children which would indicate that God is attaching value to the children of sisters who have a place in the testimony, and that they must not be neglectful of them. Their care of them is only to enhance their place in the testimony.

E.A.L. The footnote to verse 9 referring to the beginning is interesting. "Whosoever goes forward", the footnote reads, "What is called 'development': he does not abide in what was from the beginning".

J.T. And the note means what is called Darwinism. I believe God is aiming at that, and it is creeping into schools and is taught in the schools by women teachers especially, teaching it to young children. It is a great matter that the sisters be watchful over their children; and that is the point John makes to the elect lady and her children, to cling to the truth. If this bad teaching is brought up in the schools the children with their little voices come forward and say that it is not Scripture and God would honour them for it and support them in doing it.

A.P.T. The teaching of Jehovah's Witnesses is

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very close to it. They attack the truth from house to house.

J.T. It is a terrible effort of the devil, this house - to - house matter. It is for us to withstand them. Some of us know the history of that thing and it is well to have it. Of course, the doctrine commenced with a man called Russell in Pittsburgh and later changed their name under a man called Judge Rutherford and now it is Jehovah's Witnesses, which is positively wicked, that they should dub themselves that. In the first place Jehovah is not the point now. It was the same with the woman with the spirit of Python at Philippi. She followed Paul and said, "These men are bondmen of the most high God", Acts 16:17. They have branded themselves in that way, in bringing forth a testimony that belongs to the millennium and making it the testimony for the present time.

B.H. I met such a man the other day and asked if he believed that the Lord Jesus was a divine Person and he said, No.

J.T. I know. Christian Science is in the same class.

S.McC. It is important in regard of what you are saying as to clarity in regard of doctrine; not only in relation to the meetings and the ministry but in relation to our houses. Let our sisters know the doctrine in view of these great errors.

J.T. Yes. We would not wish to whip the sisters because they cannot strike back, but at the same time there is a great sphere for sisters. We have alluded to the matter of the daughters of Philip several times, illustrious persons, who prophesied. That is to say, they did the work, and the question is whether sisters are working out the truth in their own experiences, so to speak, and answer people at the doors, or whatever it may be, and say the truth; or the schools -- young people rejecting certain things. They say, I cannot accept that; it is not the truth.

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R.R.T. The elect lady here is suitable to greet the apostle.

J.T. Quite so.

E.T.P. Would you say the great preservative feature in us in this matter is holding the truth in love as we count on the Holy Spirit?

J.T. Quite so; holding it in love.

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SELECTION FOR SERVICE

John 1:47; Revelation 14:5

These books, John's gospel and the book of the Revelation, are written by John himself, and it is because of this that in measure they are read, because John affords us one who can be relied upon. The Lord made His selections in view of His services and made no mistakes, it need not be said; and hence if selection has to be made we can understand how John would be chosen to make them -- the selection of one to serve or for a group to serve. And so John has been selected at this time in order to point out persons who are without guile. He had a great knowledge of persons and no doubt the Lord had this in mind when He made him a favourite; when He made him the disciple whom He loved. Critical times had arrived in the history of the truth. John lived to be a considerable age; some lived to be a great age. Critical times had arrived. There were special missions needed; and so it was that the Lord said to Peter that if it were His thought to reserve John for such purposes that was within His rights. He had used Peter, too; He gave him work to do, greater indeed in import than the work He gave John. He assigned Peter to assembly service. "Thou shalt be called Cephas", John 1:42 He said to him when He saw him, according to John. He looked at him, which is something to be kept in mind, for a look from Jesus means something. It is not casual. He looked at Peter and told him what he was to be called. The account is different in Matthew because there the Lord says of him that he was material: "Thou art Peter". Paul had something to say about the apostles, which you can understand he would love to do in due course-after his conversion he had in

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mind to become acquainted with the apostles, and I might say in passing it is a very important thing for young people as to what acquaintances, what companionships they are making. We get examples as to what to do in those matters: what kind of associations, companionships, we are to select for ourselves. And so in Paul's case he decided that he would go up to Jerusalem to make acquaintance with Peter. At that time I suppose he could scarcely make a better selection than Peter. He was a man of experience at that time, as experience went, although they were all comparatively young. As far as I can see the Lord did not select elder brethren to be apostles or to be overseers or deacons; He made His selection from the younger ones. And so Paul made his selection and the Lord would approve, there can be no doubt. He said he went up to make acquaintance with Peter and stayed with him fifteen days; so that we can see how the early apostles and Christians were governed, what influenced them, and we do well to take note of what influenced them and see to ourselves, as to what influences us in making selections as to companionships and the like.

In coming to John's gospel he clearly made a good selection to prepare his material for the book he was about to write. He also made a good selection in preparing the Apocalypse, and the Lord helped him in that. So that if there be any thought with any of us about serving in this way, whether in taking notes for the Lord's people or transcribing them or revising them, the Lord will help us to do it, and there is great need for it, too. Material for the saints in that sense, for their reading, is piling up and as far as I see there is no hope of overtaking the work that should be done, and done well. There are touches at the beginning of John's gospel and at the end of it that show that he took great care so that any selections that should be made by the brethren

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in later years should be suitable; for the Holy Spirit was over it all. All that John did and all the others did was governed, controlled by the Holy Spirit. That is another point to keep before us, that the blessed Spirit is here in the office of another Comforter, another Paraclete; that is, another divine Person beside us, ready to stretch forth His hand to help us in time of need, whatever the need may be. It is not a time for idleness. The Lord is ready to send out labourers. The work needs to be done and He is ready to use us and give us to understand that we are worth using. I do not think the Lord would make selection of a person, who was not worth it, therefore we may as well challenge our hearts as to what we have been able to do heretofore, to see if we are worth anything, because heaven is making calculations on these lines. So John made his selection as to guileless persons. You might say, Why should he do that? Well, the word is there in this chapter 1 and the word may be there in the book of Revelation from which I have read. At any rate, the words 'lie' and 'falsehood' are very akin and very near to the idea of guile. John evidently in making his selections has the thought of selecting certain persons who are guileless, and the first one is Nathanael. There can be no question about the word applying to him; the Lord Himself is quoted by John here, and He points to Nathanael and says, "Behold one truly an Israelite, in whom there is no guile" (verse 47). So that it is time for us to look into this matter of guile if we have not done it already, for John has been selected to make selections of the kind of people that are known as guileful and then guileless people. So, as I said, you can see how he would think around and begin his great book on this point and begin it right. There is a man already converted immediately, you might say. He has been sitting under the fig-tree just recently and questioning what one is saying about the Lord

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Jesus; and in questioning the servants of the Lord, those who are reputed to be that, we run great risks in speaking ill of them. In this particular case the person involved was speaking ill of Christ. He was questioning the Lord Jesus. "Can anything good come out of Nazareth?" He is speaking of the Lord Jesus when he says that. You can see how easily we may make comments of that kind as to those who are seeking to serve the Lord's people. The Spirit of God will not forget what we say and will point a finger at us, too, as He can, if we are saying things that are not right, that are not true, about anything. So the Lord knew all about this and that is another matter that one can conveniently speak of, that the Lord knows everything about us. He says here to Nathanael, "Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig-tree, I saw thee". One might multiply references of that kind -- where one was last night; where last evening was spent, and whether the Lord could say, I saw thee there; you did not know it, but I saw thee.

Well now, I am endeavouring to speak about Nathanael and the remarkable history that he has, which is left by the pen of John for us. He runs through the gospel, seen first in this way by the Lord, and the Lord saw him moving toward him. You say, Well, that is a small matter, but it is not a small matter; it is a big matter, that even he should move toward the Lord Jesus. Just a moment ago he had been speaking ill of the Lord; at least speaking disrespectfully of Him. Now the Lord looks at him; when He saw him coming to Him He looked at him. As I said at the beginning, a look from Christ at a person is no small matter. That is to say, it is a question of who the person may be and what the history may be behind it, and whether the Lord is looking at you inquiringly for something. Maybe you do what you can do and He may be questioning

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that you are hardly fit to do it; that you require some adjustment before you can do it. There is great need, but there is great need of adjustment; and so when the Lord saw him coming to Him, He says, "Behold one truly an Israelite, in whom there is no guile". As if it were a rare matter and undoubtedly it was, and it is a rare matter now: an Israelite who is without guile is a rare matter today. Follow them up in their business affairs and household affairs and you shall soon discover whether there is guile or not. And if there is not then heaven knows it and is pleased with it. So it was that Nathanael was in mind to be an apostle, no less than that. How quickly the Lord would settle matters in that way. Indeed, when He appointed the apostles He spent the whole night in prayer. You can see how the Lord would go over the ground as regards Peter. He was always the first, and then James and then John. Nathanael is an apostle and the Lord has selected him, and in view of that He is saying things about him. Hence, as I said, I am now seeking to challenge the brethren as to what is to be done; how much is to be done, and whether there are any who can do it, and whether they are ready to come forward to do it and sacrifice to do it, because that is the way of heaven. The way of heaven is to sacrifice. The Lord Jesus made the greatest of all sacrifices. He has led the way for us in that sense, and so, therefore, I am inquiring now as to this person and what his capabilities are, what the Lord is thinking about him, what place he is to have in the list, in the cabinet; for there is such a thing as in David's time and Solomon's time and others': persons who have held offices, and so it is the thing is going on today and the places are not all filled. There is great need; not, indeed, for such work as I am doing now, in so much as there is a great number that can do it. Some think the number is increasing. Is it

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because there is a certain advantage in it, more than in other offices that are unfilled? It is a question of whether we are making a right selection in choosing certain things to be done.

And so it is that the epistles to the Corinthians help us. We are to choose the best gifts, but rather that we may prophesy. That is a thing that is not very much done, especially by sisters. One often has spoken about that. In Philip's day there were sisters who did it. I do not know of any now. But I must return to what the Lord is thinking of. It is wonderful, indeed, that anyone of us should have the privilege of looking into what the Lord is thinking of doing, as it were. We think of it in the prayer meetings; we think of what the Lord is about to do with certain ones and pray for them accordingly. So the Lord was thinking about Nathanael. He was in His mind for an office and he is showing his capabilities; he is showing his reliability. I do not know of anything more important than reliability, that a brother can be trusted with a matter, whether it be doctrine or whether it be a visitation to a needy person who wishes to break bread and the like. It is a question of whether the persons are reliable and whether the persons who are seeking to serve them are priests indeed, priests unto God, priests unto the saints, so that they are reliable. I am venturing to enlarge on this matter of Nathanael that the Lord is making a selection of him. He is telling it abroad that he has a certain quality that is of the highest importance, and the highest order. He is a man without guile; he is an Israelite. I need not say that Israelites have certain characteristics and, of course, in the early days there were a great many in the fellowship who had those characteristics and there are very few now. At the same time, there are persons who follow in the steps of the early Israelites who were known as believers, who were selected when

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any matter came up, such as deacon work. The time came when it was necessary to have them, and there is a great ado, so to say, made about it, that these brothers that ought to fill the offices are to be relied on. I am selecting this brother Nathanael because the Lord is taking him on. He is taking on others now, not of the same value as Nathanael but still the Lord is taking on workers and He is trying them out. He has His standards and these standards will soon appear. The Lord will work out these things so that they do appear and will appear, whether any are capable of taking on services which are so urgent and needed. I have already said I am not speaking of what I am doing now, for there are a great many in mind for this kind of service. It is sought after. Brethren come distances so as to have a part in it, and rightly. The thing has to be done, and so the question is reliability; whether a brother can be trusted to do such work and whether it will harm him in any sense. Because if it is liable to harm him, keep him away from it, and keep it away from him. If he has come a long way to get it, well, be careful. He may do well and he may not, because the Lord is looking for persons who are reliable in these matters so that the truth is being rightly presented to us by those who know it; those who believe and know the truth. These are the ones.

Well now, as I said, the Lord has already committed Himself to Nathanael. "Behold one truly an Israelite, in whom there is no guile". He is in the Lord's mind for apostleship, but it is now time for me to pass on to something else, and that is to think of Nathanael in his reliability as a guileless man. How important it is that there are such persons, even if there only be one in a thousand or a million who are really guileless; who are really trustworthy in the sense of doing things honestly, having no motive but uprightness in what they are doing. And so the Lord

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went on to say to him, "Thou shalt see greater things than these". It is encouraging at this very moment, to me at least and no doubt to others, that there are such great things ahead of us; greater things than we realise ahead of us. "Things which eye has not seen, and ear not heard, and which have not come into man's heart, which God has prepared for them that love him, but God has revealed to us by [his] Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God", 1 Corinthians 2:9,10. And that we can understand. We can have a clear outlook in that sense from the passage I have quoted from 1 Corinthians. So it was that Nathanael would be set on his way. Alas, he fell out of the way. John tells us that he went with Peter to fish when he should not have gone; but still he got his service. The Lord allotted to him the service He had in mind for him as He did with Peter. So the Lord has His thoughts about us and whatever they are He will carry them through. He may discipline us in order that He can carry them through but He will do it. "But desire earnestly the greater gifts, and yet shew I unto you a way of more surpassing excellence", 1 Corinthians 12:31. That is the way of love. So I would say to everyone, if indeed you may be diverted at all, look out for love. Take that on, because it will never fail.

Well now, I must go on to the Apocalypse, because we have a wonderful group there and they are selected by John. He makes a selection although in a prophetic sense; not in the clear way in which the gospels make their selection, but he makes his selection and we should just see the features of it to show how near the millennial blessing will be to ours, the one that we are in. John is dealing with both. He is dealing with the present dispensation too. Nathanael was really taken up primarily as an Israelite, but he becomes an apostle: therefore, he belongs to the assembly. Then the next group is the one at mount

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Zion. We will just look at it: "and in their mouths was no lie found; [for] they are blameless" The word is really 'guile', or it may be 'lie', but there seems to be a question about that. 'Guile' would be quite safe to think of; "for they are blameless". So that we have some inkling here as to what millennial blessing will be and what the kind of people are to be in that day for the offices to be filled. But I am now dealing with the present time. I am dealing now with John, of course, who is not a millennial man. He is an apostle and so is Nathanael. And then these one hundred and forty-four thousand -- who are they? Are we safe to select them for our own dispensation? Is John not safe to do it? He has done it, and he has set them up in relation to the Messiah in the coming day in mount Zion. May we not say that there is great elasticity as to the things of God, and if it be apostleship and the like, if it be the appointments in the millennial day, may they not be brought forward to our own day? We are dealing with the same persons that we are dealing with in John. He has made the selection here. It is in the Apocalypse, of course, but at the same time it is a Christian matter, and John is a Christian apostle. He is the oldest one as far as we know, of them. He lived to be very old and all the time was loved by the Lord Jesus. He was always the disciple whom Jesus loved and is, I might say, yet, although he has passed on. But in the time while he was here he was the disciple whom Jesus loved, and if he made his selection he made it on those lines. "And I saw, and behold, the Lamb standing upon Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand, having his name and the name of his Father written upon their foreheads" (verse 1). It is John and he is the disciple whom Jesus loved, and is the Lord not thinking of such persons now, such groups, persons who can be looked to and relied upon to carry through commissions,

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things that have to be done? Surely it is so. We are in the apostolic time in that sense, although the book of Revelation is not written on that line. John does not write as an apostle; he writes as a prophet, but he writes. He is the writer and he is the one that loves, that knows love. He is the one that the Lord loves, too; he has not changed, and he will remain, too, in the Lord's love for ever and ever. We do well to love. If we want an office at all go in for love, because the Lord is making His selection and up to the last minute of this dispensation He will be making His selection and He will use whom He will, and persons whom He will use are reliable persons. He is looking at it now, and it is a question, therefore, of whether He is looking at us; whether we are looking for anything, whether He can take us on; whether He can rely on us for any work He has to do. One might think of certain nations, as to what is being done, what the Lord is doing. One might speak of those, but I would prefer to keep on, as I said before, the point is we are in the time when the Lord is doing things and they have to be done; even if it is only for a day or a week they have to be done, and He is looking for suitable workers. He will not take any others. He is not forced to the wall in that sense. He will make His own selection, so that it is a question, dear brethren, of whether we are ready for what there is to be done. The Lord is looking for us and casting His eye upon us even now as to what He has to do, and whom He may select to do it, and whether you have any predilections of your own and whether you want to keep on to them and gain your point or whether you are ready for what the Lord wants, for He is supreme. We have spoken of that today already -- the supreme One. The Lord is supreme in everything and He wants us, as I said before, for whatever is to be done, and He has His eye upon us. Are we to go in for it and do the thing, do the next

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thing; not wait for someone to die to do it, but do the next thing; whatever the next thing is, do it? "What thou doest, do quickly", John 13:27. But there is the thought of having things done, and of one it is said, "What she could she has done", Mark 14:8. She did not wait at all. Whatever it was that came her way she did it. That is the idea. I am just seeking to lay it out in that sense, and put it before you and just leave it, in the Lord's name.

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A PLACE OF PROTECTION

Revelation 12

A.H. We have been thinking of this book in the light of the word that "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify these things to you in the assemblies", (chapter 22:16), seeking to get moral and spiritual gain from looking into them, and would be glad if you would say a word in that relation as to this chapter.

J.T. This book was evidently given later than John's epistles, necessitated by the conditions of the assembly as to the truth in general, so that it is said, "Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to him, to show to his bondmen what must shortly take place; and he signified it, sending by his angel, to his bondman John, who testified the word of God", Revelation 1:1,2 so that the word of God is involved, because the things are signified, not simply inspiration but signification.

This chapter may be regarded as one of the most distinctive as pointing to the signs. Here a great sign was seen in the heavens; therefore it is a question of signification, meaning that things are unfolded by signs, not simply in the sense in which the gospel speaks of signs, and not exactly wonders, but still they are wonderful things, they are really wonders; so here the sign is called great, and it is "a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars" -- rightly called a wonderful sign, but we have to find in the Scriptures identification. The sign involved is to be identified, and it calls attention to Israel, not the assembly but Israel, because she has the marks of Israel. "A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars". She is clothed with authority, the sun being the ruler of the day, and then the moon

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being subordinate light, light in the sense of authority; and then we can see the identification of Israel in the number twelve, the crown of twelve stars, meaning that the idea of administration is attached to her. God has a way of showing things administratively, carrying them out administratively.

A.H. As we are with God we are able to understand His secrets?

J.T. Well, that is good; we have to do with persons here; the woman clothed, and then her child. He is called "a male son" -- a most remarkable thing, as if the male side is stressed, the masculine side, and He is to rule the nations with a rod of iron. "And she brought forth a male son, who shall shepherd all the nations with an iron rod; and her child was caught up to God and to his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has there a place prepared of God, that they should nourish her there a thousand two hundred [and] sixty days". That is to say, the persons, the numbers, all point to other scriptures, enabling us to identify the persons, so that we surround ourselves by these persons and think of them and see how they act.

F.I. Would you say that the thought of having Israel in view in administration, the male child being born, would show that the Administrator is coming in in relation to the earth?

J.T. Yes, she is not the administrator; the administration is to be in His hands, there is to be a male son.

A.M. Would this scripture in a way apply to Isaiah 8 and 9, "Behold, I and the children that Jehovah hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel" (Isaiah 8:18), and "Unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given", (Isaiah 9:6)?

J.T. Very good, opening up the prophetic word; but this book is extraordinary, it is not what may be regarded as setting out scriptural knowledge, but the

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setting out of signs. In Isaiah 9 we are told that "His name is called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace" (or 'of the age' ), verse 6, so we get opened up there in a truly prophetical sense what position Christ is to occupy in the coming age. He is said to be the Father of the age to come.

A.M. I was wondering about the persons being the signs. You emphasised persons here in this section.

J.T. They have force in that chapter. They are signs and wonders in the truly prophetic sense, not the apocalyptic sense which marks the book of Revelation by itself, it is an apocalypse, an unveiling of things, whereas the great prophets and the lesser prophets give the ordinary sense of the prophetic word.

F.I. Do you mean that this is the unveiling of that which you get in the prophetic word?

J.T. Yes, the veil being removed, that we can look at things and understand them; therefore the whole of the Scriptures are to be before us in the understanding of this book, and therefore there is a premium afforded to us, a blessing afforded to us, for reading this book because it is more difficult than any other book, and therefore there is a premium accorded to those who read and understand. It is called a sealed book by most Christians, but it is to be understood, and those who read and understand have a premium given to them, they get something for doing it, more than they get ordinarily for reading Scripture.

A.H. That premium to which you refer seems to clearly indicate that the persons reading it would understand it. It says, "they that hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things written in it", Revelation 1:3 -- if as a result of their reading and enquiry they keep these things. I was wondering as to this matter of government, whether it has a peculiar bearing as seen in the assembly today.

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J.T. Well, I think it has. The principle is really set out in the assembly. The principle of administration is brought down to our meetings called care meetings, rightly called care meetings. The word, 'care' in regard to meetings of the assembly is found in Timothy, those who take care of the assembly. I am sure that the Lord attaches great importance to it, especially honouring those who care. It is said, "how shall he take care of the assembly of God?", 1 Timothy 3:5. It is called the assembly of God in that epistle and carries with it the great importance of our care meetings as over against the assemblies of this world, which God honours, too, in the sense that the powers that be are ordained of God and they are used of God, they are set up of God, and they have assemblies and parliaments and so on, and God is honouring them, but not in the sense of the assembly because in the assembly He helps the saints to do things in accord with Him. There is no such thing in the parliaments of this world, but there is in the assembly.

T.M. Is there a link between this chapter and the opening of Matthew's gospel, the birth of Christ, and the dragon?

J.T. I would say that fully -- the persons, the generations of Jesus Christ, the "Book of the generation of Jesus Christ", Matthew 1:1. The persons involved in generations run down for a long period of time -- forty-two generations. These represent what God has used, as having taken up Abraham; Christ is called"Son of David, Son of Abraham", Matthew 1:1. It is the most distinguished and dignified setting in the whole record of Scripture or of the world, the persons of those generations, and so we find Joseph. The line is brought down to Joseph; it is Joseph, not Mary simply. It is Mary in Luke more, but in Matthew it is Joseph; that is to say, the male side is in mind, and that is in mind in this chapter, too, the male side, but Joseph is the son of David. He is in the royal

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line and he is distinguished as a righteous man -- two points that ought to be before us in this book as well as in the gospel of Matthew, because the gospel of Matthew is the assembly gospel, and hence the great stress laid on righteousness-that Joseph was a righteous man.

A.H. That would seem to link up with what you were referring to in Isaiah 9, "Of the increase of his government and of peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with judgment and with righteousness, from henceforth even for ever", Isaiah 9:7.

J.T. Very good; one of the things perhaps that we have least of -- righteousness. We have considerable knowledge, but righteousness is the thing, and it is the first thing to be followed, according to 2 Timothy, not simply have it but pursue it so as to have it, because it is available but it has to be pursued.

A.B. You said the book has to be understood and it says at the end of Daniel, "the wise shall understand", Daniel 12:10. Is there any relation between these two?

J.T. Very good. Daniel is the most personal of all the prophets. "Thou shalt ... stand in thy lot at the end of the days", Daniel 12:13. And then it says, "Blessed is he that ... cometh to the thousand three hundred and thirty-five days"! Not simply 1,260 as here, but 1,335 days; one who waits and counts to that particular time.

T.M. Do we see in this chapter that the gates of hades do not prevail?

J.T. Well, that is what we see throughout the book, really. We see the application of that may be placed on Israel, because the woman is preserved and the male son prevails, and elsewhere He opens the book, the book of the inheritance.

A.M. Would you say that while the male side is the objective, there is some moral significance in the reference to the woman and to travail and to pain?

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Are not those great moral features that are needed before the masculine side is fully developed?

J.T. Just so, so that we are directed to Genesis 3, what the woman had to suffer to produce her seed, the seed of the woman. She has to suffer and so the line is worked out on that principle. It is said here, "being with child she cried", she is in travail and in pain to bring forth. That is a principle that we have in the assembly, of suffering, but it also applies to Israel for the divine thoughts are worked out in the feminine side in suffering; so the remnant of Israel would suffer more than any other set of people. Her suffering is alluded to as Jacob's travail.

H.A.H. Do you think the matter of travail specially comes in in relation to the administration and care in the assembly you were speaking of?

J.T. I think the Lord watches the dear brethren as they wend their way to their meeting rooms to take up the care of the brethren in each gathering. I think the Lord is greatly interested in this, they are not to be neglected, and as a rule, I believe, when there are only monthly care meetings the Lord's day following the meeting is usually marked by particular grace and support for the service that is carried on.

Rem. So that the care meeting would have a subduing effect on us.

J.T. The brethren who attend those meetings are specially supported.

A.H. Is the fruit of the care meeting as in Acts 15 something like what you are suggesting? Things having been administered before God it results in such joy as that.

J.T. Yes, it was pursued with care. The apostles and elders came together to consider the matter, and then Peter gave his verdict or judgment as to how the truth was brought about and what part he had in it. He had a leading part in the assembly. The Lord said, "I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom

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of the heavens; and whatsoever thou mayest bind upon the earth shall be bound in the heavens", Matthew 16:19. Peter spoke after the apostles and elders had come together to consider the matter, and then James confirmed what he said. And then the whole assembly wrote a letter confirming what had been done, and it became confirmatory of the whole position of the assembly worked out at Jerusalem.

Ques. Do you attach this thought of authority in any way to that?

J.T. Well, there was authority at the very outset, it was the authority of the elder brethren. Paul and Barnabas went up to Jerusalem to see the brethren, and the order that marked that meeting was that what Paul and Barnabas were doing among the Gentiles was first considered, and then there was much conversation. Peter gave his verdict, and then James confirmed Peter, and then the letter went out to the assemblies and it was carried by Paul and Barnabas and it was confirmatory of the whole position at that time, and, I believe, in order to understand the thought of the care of God each should learn what is seen in Acts 15. It is true that Barnabas and Paul later divided from each other for the moment, but the general facts stood, and the whole matter was confirmatory of the whole position, and therefore these care meetings are of prime importance to heaven, I believe.

Ques. Would Jeremiah 32:11 have any bearing on that, the thought of "the writing of the purchase, that which was sealed, ... and that which was open", and then in verse 14 they were to be put in an earthen vessel? I wondered if the idea of being preserved in Israel is suggested there.

J.T. Very good, and what is preserved in the assembly at the present time is there and to be carried out in the millennium because the assembly grows to a holy temple in the Lord, and she becomes in the

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millennial day the earthen vessel in which these are preserved, so that persons in that day will be able to communicate with the earth and give the mind of God as to what is needed; the assembly will be the thought throughout, that is the temple of God, the mind of God, will be there. That is how I think the millennium will be carried on. It is the final thought of God in men as we are now. It is not in glorified persons but in persons who are living on the earth but instructed by God from the assembly. The assembly will be above but she is in relation to it. There are persons ruling over ten cities and five cities. The assembly is never seen on the earth but she is over it and able to communicate the mind of God to it, she is near enough to it.

Rem. The moral influence would be right.

J.T. Quite so, so that earth and heaven are to be in accord, there is never to be any break again in that sense, although there is a break in the end (Revelation 20); they come up to attack the beloved city, but there is no success in the attack at all, but fire from heaven puts that to an end.

A.H. All that is anticipated in a living way in the administration in the assembly.

J.T. Just so, that is what our care meetings mean, and then it is seen what is there to support us. "Where two or three are gathered together unto my name, there am I in the midst of them", Matthew 18:20. He is there in power.

A.M. But assembly administration today is not on the line of the iron rod. Does Matthew 18 indicate that forgiveness is a great point today in her administration?

J.T. It is grace, grace upon grace, the teaching of John. Whilst Paul has the general structure of the position in mind, John has the spirit of the thing more, and so it is grace upon grace. That is the principle in the spirit of the assembly in administration.

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E.B. We used to think that the primary thought in regard to assembly discipline was the maintenance of the holiness of God's house, but I have noticed that there is considerable emphasis on the spirit of Christ and that recovery is in mind and the priest going out in the spirit of recovery.

J.T. Very good, Galatians, which is a very severe epistle for a Christian epistle, yet says, "If even a man be taken in some fault, ye who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of meekness, considering thyself lest thou also be tempted", Galatians 6:1. Galatians is remarkable in that it provides for recovery, and the idea is that if anything happens to a brother or a sister and some fault occurs, it is not that there is to be discipline exercised, but that restoration should take place, and the word has in mind that there should be a re-setting up of the whole position; that the failure of the person should not be allowed to damage or permanently interfere with the function of that person, but that he should be restored to take his part, to be set up where he ought to be in the place that perhaps he has lost, but he is to be set up so that he should continue to function in his position.

H.A.H. The real objective -- would it be the promotion of the features of Christ?

J.T. The word 'restore' -- how important it is! You will see how Galatians contemplates what has been said.

Rem. The word 'mend' is in mind apparently.

J.T. The same as the 'mending' of the nets in Matthew 4:21. See note g to 1 Corinthians 1:10. You say, Well, we have lost so-and-so, he is not what he used to be. Well, then, if he is not, why not? The spiritual would see in regard to that brother, or sister, that they are taken care of and set up as they used to be, so that we have not lost them.

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A.H. How about the man in 1 Corinthians 5? Paul seems to urge them to take the matter up, but then likewise he has to urge them to restore him.

J.T. Well, that supports what we are saying. Paul says, "that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus", 1 Corinthians 5:5. "In the day of the Lord Jesus" is a long way ahead. The spirit of grace operating in the assembly would set the person up as he was before. Beautiful! The man was restored before they expected. The apostle has to urge them to do it.

A.H. I was thinking when he speaks about this matter in chapter 5 it says "ye and my spirit". Do you think it was because he could not trust the spirit of the Corinthians in the first epistle that he has to refer to his own spirit?

J.T. Well, but the word "that the spirit may be saved" is there, too. It would appear that they did not function as they should have done. The apostle did not say that his spirit should not be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. He did not there make allowance for the fact that the man might be restored earlier, which he was, and we should always be ready to hope in our hearts that a man might be restored long before we might have expected him.

A.H. I am much exercised as to what you are saying because here we are faced with an exercise of someone who has neglected her privilege at the Supper for some considerable time, and now refuses to see the brethren, and we have wondered what we should do. We have waited patiently in grace, but she persists. She says she does not want to have any more to do with us.

J.T. Then her will is active. If her will acts you should act, I would say.

Rem. The letter in Acts 15, "It seemed good to us, having arrived at a common judgment, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, men who have given up their lives for the name

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of our Lord Jesus Christ", Acts 15:25,26. I thought that was in relation to the suffering you have been speaking about. They have arrived at a common judgment together.

J.T. I think that is a wholesome word because sometimes we are not united as to what should be done when we come to judicial action. It is a great moral force if we are united in what is right.

Rem. The names of these men are cleared, Barnabas and Paul, of any suggestion of looseness.

E.Z.B. Would you help me in regard of the rehabilitation of a brother who has fallen? Should it come from one who is spiritual or from the one who is withdrawn from? We know of a case of one who has been withdrawn from, and we have all been praying and we are waiting for some movement from him.

J.T. If there was any movement in the brother, there is no objection to any person bringing the matter forward.

A.H. Have you in mind, Mr. B., in your question, when one is under discipline someone should go and see them?

E.Z.B. Well, we have restoration in mind, and I wondered whether the first move should be from those who are praying in regard to him or whether we should wait for some move from the particular brother himself.

J.T. Well, there would not be any difficulty as far as I see. If anyone among the saints made a suggestion, that he had some good ground or was being exercised, the liberty that belongs to us in the assembly would belong to them.

E.C.M. Would the thought in the epistle to the Corinthians encourage us to show grace and encourage?

J.T. Very good.

Ques. Does not that involve that God sovereignly comes in in healing? We used to think that once a

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person was under assembly discipline, unless God sovereignly came in there was nothing the brethren could do.

J.T. Leviticus always contemplates that there is a priest, it never says 'if there is a priest', it is what the priest is to do, he is the man to move in Leviticus as regards leprosy. The priest might be a sister, you know. Anybody might observe something that would indicate that God is working. The liberty that belongs to Christianity would suggest that we should say so. We should not think that we are not to say anything about it. There should be no lack of priesthood or priestly service.

Ques. Would Matthew 18 come in here, "So it is not the will of your Father who is in the heavens that one of these little ones should perish"?

J.T. Very good, showing the importance of these little ones.

T.M. Can we draw comfort in the application of verse 6 as to the place prepared by God for the woman, and the nourishing for the whole period of the 1,260 days?

J.T. Very good, that brings up the whole matter of the position of the woman and how she is cared for, and then the position of her seed. It is said, "And the dragon was angry with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, who keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus". Well now, in verse 6 it is said, "And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has there a place prepared of God, that they should nourish her there a thousand two hundred [and] sixty days". And then we have, "And there were given to the woman the two wings of the great eagle, that she might fly into the desert into her place, where she is nourished there a time, and times, and half a time". The first reference, in verse 6, gives the period in days, showing that there is more minuteness in the thing

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being followed up, but in the other verse it is on the principle of time, times and half a time. There is less minuteness, but then she herself knows where she is, and so it says that she flies (verse 14). She knows her place. There is the same number of days in the first reference only more minuteness than in the other reference. The woman here is an object of great care, but she also is learning and she knows her place and she takes things up in a more general way -- time, times and half a time. And then she is accredited with having a remnant "who keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus".

Ques. In the first instance would she have got the gain of the nourishment with which they nourished her, God's provision in the first instance to prepare her for what was further?

J.T. Quite so; they have the commandments of God and they have the testimony of Jesus. They occupy a more official place even than she does; there is more of a moral feature attaching to the remnant of her seed.

Ques. Would it be right to say with regard to the wings that furnishing comes in as we need it?

J.T. Yes, and the ability to get out of the way of the devil. The male son is taken out of the way, her child was caught up to God, to His throne, but then he is taken out of the way of the devil altogether; but the woman, it says, "fled into the wilderness, where she has there a place prepared of God, that they should nourish her there a thousand two hundred and sixty days". God would take us out of the way of the devil.

Ques. We have not necessarily to stand up against opposition then?

J.T. Well, there is the suggestion of God giving special consideration for us in times of stress. In the last war many of us were kept out of the way.

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Ques. Is that seen in the early chapters of Matthew, "take to [thee] the little child and it's mother", Matthew 2:20?

J.T. Very nice; the mother is taken, not the Child by Himself, as if the Spirit of God would provide for the Child; but the care of the mother is in mind. It is not simply the father's care but the mother's care.

Ques. Would you say these principles are operating in the epistle to the Galatians? Paul speaks of travailing, and then he speaks of the fulness of time and the seed of the woman.

J.T. Quite so; they are operating in Paul himself. Certainly it is what we are seeing in chapter 12; they are operating there in the whole meeting, the whole assembly, but this matter of the man Child is remarkable. It is being taken out of the way, and the woman having the wings of flight, she is nourished as being taken out of the way. That is a great comfort at the present time. There is so much confusion among governments, and among industrial conditions, too, that there is a great suggestion of God's gracious care extended to keep us out of the way of evil.

Ques. There is no suggestion that the suffering will ease for the Christian company, is there?

J.T. There is a suggestion that the divine care is extended in the power of flight.

A.M. Would you say that Satan has been cast out into the earth yet? The Lord sees Satan as falling out of heaven after the ministry of the seventy.

J.T. That is only a prophetical allusion to what is here; that did not happen at that time. It is more what the Lord would say, that He saw Satan falling out of heaven, but I think he is there yet, that there is spiritual wickedness in the heavenlies.

Rem. James encourages us to draw near to God, to resist the devil and he will flee from us.

J.T. Well, it is the woman's flight here, and it is for young people to keep out of the way of evil.

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A.H. Does this touch on the thought of hiding? The Lord Jesus hid Himself.

J.T. The Lord Himself hid Himself. It is quite right. Why should I put myself in the way of evil? Resist evil, but the way is to keep at the meetings; do not stay at home from the meetings; young people should keep among the brethren. They need the protection of the brethren.

Ques. Is that what you had in mind to say about the "place"?

J.T. I had not thought of it before, but it occurs to me now. It was her place, she knew her place, she knew where to go.

Rem. The disciples went to their own company.

J.T. Just so.

Ques. Why is her place in the desert?

J.T. Well, it is a wilderness position, what Israel experienced in the beginning. It is God showing that He would preserve His people from those conditions. John the baptist was preserved in the deserts, and it says that he was there until the day of his showing to Israel, but the showing forth in the Old Testament is that God makes a protection. The tabernacle in the wilderness was to preserve the saints, to preserve the right thought amongst them.

Rem. The word is different here; in the first instance it is 'wilderness', in the second it is 'desert'.

J.T. The words are the same in verses 6 and 14. There is nothing to support you in the desert. There is nothing for the spiritual in it. There is nothing for us but God's support.

'In the desert God will teach thee
What the God that thou hast found --
Patient, gracious, powerful, holy:
All His grace shall there abound'. (Hymn 76)

There is nothing else but God, we are shut up to God, and very few of us know what that means.

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Rem. Israel being borne on eagles' wings and brought to God.

J.T. "I have borne you on eagles' wings and brought you to myself", Exodus 19:4. Most touching!

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GOD'S HOUSE AND ITS PROTECTION

Exodus 26

A.H. Is it asking too much to ask you to say a word as to chapter 25, and the link with this chapter?

J.T. Chapter 25 is a question of what the people would supply to Jehovah as the outcome of love. Following chapter 25, what we have in chapter 26 is for housing. Verse 8 of chapter 25 reads, "And they shall make me a sanctuary, that I may dwell among them. According to all that I shall shew thee, the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the utensils thereof, even so shall ye make it", Exodus 25:8. It is the idea of pattern, and of course what Christ was here, as indicating what is of heaven down here, and having therefore conditions of housing and protection; it is really God's house, and that means Christ is here as Man as the pattern, and the assembly, too; that is the idea in the type, the dwelling-place of God. The quality of the metals, and so on, being so rich, reminds us of His house, "whose house are we", (Hebrews 3:6); the saints are God's house. This is very cursory and may not be perfect, but calls attention to the saints and what they are down here, and it is intended to affect us, as now; we can take more account of it, with the Holy Spirit here among us to fill out the divine thought, and make it practical here below.

H.W. Is it like John 17 and the Lord's prayer for unity?

J.T. The thought runs right through; it is one tabernacle.

A.H. In that way chapter 26 indicates the wonderful graces that mark the saints.

J.T. The epistles, especially thinking of Paul, help

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us as to the curtains, boards, bars and pillars, all referring to the saints.

A.H. Why the Pauline epistles?

J.T. Paul is the architect of the assembly, the master builder, who laid the foundation of the assembly, and let others take care how they build upon it. He was "an elect vessel to me". We have more of Paul's history than of any other; we come to finality in Paul. Much had intervened after the resurrection and ascension, till Paul; but when he came things began to develop.

T.J.M. Is this a portrayal of it?

J.T. The pattern is here; all is of one pattern. The whole matter was not there; it awaited the coming of the Holy Spirit. The thought is to bring out the sufferings of Christ, and we must have Paul to bring them out; none suffered as much as Paul: "I rejoice in sufferings for you, and I fill up that which is behind of the tribulations of Christ in my flesh, for his body, which is the assembly", Colossians 1:24, Paul says and it is all suggested here in Exodus.

Ques. Does it begin in Acts 13?

J.T. Yes; it was in Antioch that "the disciples were first called Christians", Acts 11:26; that is what Christ is down here in a practical way, and that was first seen at Antioch; the assembly was first seen there in its proper form; and now we are to come up to it; suffering belongs to the moment.

A.M. "Through him we have both access by one Spirit to the Father", Ephesians 2:18. Is that Jew and Gentile?

J.T. Very good; there is the thought of access there; we are not stationary.

Ques. As to the ten curtains, would that refer to responsibility?

J.T. I would say that, but the number is more than that, than administration. So much is in the mind of God, as seen in Moses.

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Ques. Is the mind of God taken on, so that we have variety, ten curtains, not twelve?

J.T. Very fine. Then there is the colour, then the artistic work, and one measure for each curtain, so it says, "And thou shalt make the tabernacle [with] ten curtains of twined byssus, and blue, and purple, and scarlet: with cherubim of artistic work shalt thou make them. The length of one curtain shall be twenty-eight cubits, and the breadth of one curtain four cubits -- one measure for all the curtains. Five of the curtains shall be coupled one to another, and [the other] five curtains coupled one to another. And thou shalt make loops of blue on the edge of the one curtain at the end of the coupling; and likewise shalt thou make [them] in the edge of the outermost curtain in the other coupling. Fifty loops shalt thou make in the one curtain, and fifty loops shalt thou make at the end of the curtain in the other coupling: the loops shall be opposite to one another. And thou shalt make fifty clasps of gold, and couple the curtains together with the clasps, that the tabernacle may be one [whole]". Oneness is the great idea in it all; so that the Holy Spirit is to be given place; it is alluded to in the book of Hebrews.

Rem. The first part, to the end of verse 6, is the tabernacle, the actual dwelling of God; the tent which follows is to protect that.

J.T. Very good, and in verse 7 there is a different set of things, curtains of goats' hair, and another number, eleven; then metals or materials, gold, silver, copper, then wood, and so on; it is all instructive, and we get that in the epistles.

Rem. Paul speaks of those who "love our Lord Jesus Christ in incorruption" Ephesians 6:24, which would be like the first set of curtains, and "to those who love God", Romans 8:28, would be like the second set.

J.T. God is above all, "one God and Father of

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all", -- all works through the one Lord, one faith, one baptism, to one God, from the outer to the inner; Ephesians 4:4 - 6.

A.H. Would righteousness be in view in the cherubim?

J.T. I should rather say government, and the care meetings, as we had yesterday, even to the sisters and their hair, for headship should be there; it is government.

Rem. It is beauty according to God.

J.T. Yes, comeliness; it is now the goats' hair, and the rams' skins dyed red, for "the Christ's head God", 1 Corinthians 11:3.

A.M. As to the public side, would there be any link with the thought of the universe in Psalm 19?

J.T. Well; then Hebrews 3:4 says, "he who has built all things [is] God", that is God in Sonship. It refers to the universe really, in a material sense, but the tabernacle refers to it in a spiritual sense, and is composed of persons, and speaks of love.

Rem. It is held together in love.

J.T. We had that last evening, the woman in Revelation 12, speaking of "the remnant of her seed"; they keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus, and are called the remnant of her seed.

Rem. You cannot have the one without the other.

J.T. It is very important that the thought of God should be before us. We are in the midst of the nations, their parliaments, their congresses, and so forth, and there should be some such thought of government in our meetings; but "the testimony of Jesus" brings Him into it all, and then the blessed Spirit, so that all three divine Persons are bound up in the fellowship.

Ques. Why is it His personal name here, "Jesus"?

J.T. Young people when they are converted need to be instructed in the thought of Jesus, and developed

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into the thought of God; that all things are given into His hands; young people need to know that. John 4 brings that out, that is the system, and the woman there becomes active in it; that is "the Christ" involves the system, and she is in it. The name of Jesus is so necessary for the youth, and His testimony, and that they are bound up with it.

H.W. "For the spirit of prophecy is the testimony of Jesus", Revelation 19:10.

Rem. That is the order of man in whom the testimony goes through..

J.T. "I Jesus ... I am the root and offspring of David" Revelation 22:16; "the root and the offspring of David" are a smaller thought than "I Jesus", but the youth are to grow up in it.

E.C.M. It draws out our feelings for the Person.

J.T. Yes, it is not now a military thought.

Rem. It involves His deity.

J.T. Yes.

Ques. Would the thought of "the mystery of piety" apply, 1 Timothy 3:16?

J.T. Very good. The young people think little of that. But what about our chapter; there are the rams' skins dyed red, and the badgers' skins; they are both external things, but there is strength in them? Then in verse 15, "And the boards for the tabernacle thou shalt make of acacia-wood, standing up"; they stand up straight for support; the curtains will not support, but the boards will; we look to the brethren to support things; so we get in verse 16 the measurements of them.

A.H. It is the thought of being upright, as man was originally made.

E.C.M. It is the obligation of the fellowship.

J.T. Yes. It was said as to Job, "this man was perfect and upright", Job 1:1; it is a general thought, it is man's form as made to look up to God, to pray and to call on God, "when ye stand praying,

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forgive", Mark 11:25; animals are made on another principle.

Rem. The man in Lystra was told by Paul to "Rise up straight upon thy feet", Acts 14:10.

J.T. Very good, and in Acts 3, too. The man "had never walked" in Acts 14; it is the Gentile position; in chapter 3 the man "was lame from his mother's womb", it is the Jewish one, for he had walked, it does not say that he never walked.

W.J. Ephesians 6:13 says, "having accomplished all things, to stand"; everything that is needed is to be done.

A.H. In verse 19 we are to have a good base to stand on, "bases of silver".

J.T. The thought of what is basic is derived from that; it is a good thought of what is fundamental, and we can see that the thought of the boards carries all that with them, even if only in a few, "the remnant of her seed", Revelation 12:17; the true idea is there, they "keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus".

F.I. The bases would carry the thought of redemption; no one can stand, unless on that basis.

J.T. Yes, the man in Acts 3 "held Peter and John" (verse 11) as he walked and leaped and praised God; a man like that is in the good of the assembly, a testimony alongside of Peter and John to the truth.

Ques. Why is the breadth of the boards the same as the breadth of the ark?

J.T. The dimensions of the ark have the Person of Christ in mind; outwardly it is very small; the mind is taxed as to these measurements, they are peculiar measurements, two and a half by one and a half, and so it reads, "And they shall make an ark of acacia-wood; two cubits and a half the length thereof, and a cubit and a half the breadth thereof, and a cubit and a half the height thereof", Exodus 25:10. We need to look into these measurements

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and see where the Person of Christ can be found.

He was no ordinary man. He "gave his strength into captivity, and his glory into the hand of the oppressor", Psalm 78:61. Things fell before the ark; Dagon fell; it shows there was power, even in the measurements, and the only one who can answer to them is Christ, there is extraordinary power in Him, "he delivered up his spirit" John 19:30, an act of power.

G.J.D. "For both he that sanctifies and those sanctified [are] all of one", Hebrews 2:11.

J.T. Good, but the ark is always by itself. All went down before it, even on the cross; He delivered up His spirit, and He rose in divine power.

A.W.P. Is there a point of distance?

J.T. Yes, like at the Jordan, "about two thousand cubits", Joshua 3:4.

G.J.D. I was thinking of that, and yet there is the relation between the ark and the boards.

J.T. Yes, but the distance and the distinction must be there; "that through death he might annul him who has the might of death, that is the devil", Hebrews 2:14.

Ques. Does the half cubit suggest our dependence on one another?

J.T. Good; and dependence on the Lord!

A.H. What about the corners (verse 23)?

J.T. Yes; the number eight comes in here; and then there is the gold.

A.H. All to indicate the great strength of the structure.

J.T. Quite so; the thought of 'twins' is in it, according to the note to verse 24. So verse 23 reads, "And two boards shalt thou make for the corners of the tabernacle at the rear; and they shall be joined beneath, and together shall be united at the top thereof to one ring: thus shall it be for them both; they shall be for the two corners. And there shall be

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eight boards, and their bases, of silver, sixteen bases; two bases under one board, and two bases under another board". This is a resurrection number, sixteen bases, so that they are united as being all of one strength.

F.I. As to redemption and resurrection and correspondence to Christ; we cannot uphold the testimony unless we take after Christ in some way.

J.T. Yes, we must begin there; the book of the Acts is that all has to be learned again, so "they persevered in the teaching and fellowship of the apostles", Acts 2:42; the apostles will carry out what He was.

A.H. So Paul says, "my ways [as] they [are] in Christ", 1 Corinthians 4:17.

J.T. Just so.

A.H. What about these bars?

J.T. They are basic. So verse 26 reads, "And thou shalt make bars of acacia-wood; five for the boards of the one side of the tabernacle, and five bars for the boards of the other side of the tabernacle, and five bars for the boards of the side of the tabernacle at the rear westward; and the middle bar in the midst of the boards reaching from one end to the other". Notice, it is "tabernacle", not 'tent'; so verse 29 goes on, "And thou shalt overlay the boards with gold, and make of gold their rings, the receptacles of the bars, and shalt overlay the bars with gold". All is overlaid with it, so that the appearance inside is gold. "And thou shalt set up the tabernacle according to its fashion, as hath been shewn thee on the mountain", and so the whole system comes out from God.

E.C.M. "Now he that has wrought us for this very thing [is] God, who also has given to us the earnest of the Spirit", 2 Corinthians 5:5.

J.T. Quite; for "God [is] faithful", 1 Corinthians 1:9.

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A.T.G. So it is of God "are ye in Christ Jesus", 1 Corinthians 1:30.

J.T. The faithfulness of God is found in 1 Corinthians 1:9, and again in chapter 10:13, and then in 2 Corinthians 1:18, "Now God [is] faithful, that our word to you is not yea and nay"; the working out of this is seen in Paul's conduct; they made out that he told lies, but he did not, "For the Son of God, Jesus Christ ... yea is in him" (verse 19); it is the veracity that belongs to the saints; they are transparent. The three references to God's faithfulness are worked out in Genesis 22:19 with Abraham at Beersheba, and as Isaac was raised up (he is not said to come down) Abraham goes and dwells there. It is the faithfulness of God.

R.G.B. I am wondering if it is seen in Moses going into the holiest of all, and God communicating His mind; Numbers 7:89.

J.T. Yes, Jehovah spoke to him, and it came from the mercy-seat, and that speaks of the Holy Spirit here below; it is very touching that the Spirit of God should be seen there, and that that is where the voice comes from, and then, in chapter 8, it refers to the offering of the Levites.

A.H. What represents these bars today?

J.T. Influences among the brethren; how things are held; whether the position is not held in power by the middle bar, a universal thought, and we must not limit it to the local position, though the latter governs the former: "thus I ordain in all the assemblies", 1 Corinthians 7:17.

A.M. Would the middle bar be love, and the other ones be brotherly love?

J.T. Very good; love has to be expressed in the abstract in 1 Corinthians 13.

A.M. There was not much of it in the Corinthians.

J.T. That is it; Paul had to unfold it.

Ques. What do we learn from the gold?

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J.T. It is called divine righteousness, and represents what is of God, involving righteousness.

Rem. It is put upon the saints by the Spirit.

J.T. Well, where it really exists; if not we are only a sect, "But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who has been made to us wisdom from God, and righteousness, and holiness, and redemption", 1 Corinthians 1:30; that indicates what it is.

A.W.P. Thus we are impressed with what God is.

A.M. The abstract is not enough; the things have to be made.

J.T. Yes; we have not only what is required, but from chapter 36 onwards we have what is made.

A.M. Would you distinguish between what God does, "The place that thou, Jehovah, hast made thy dwelling, the Sanctuary, Lord, that thy hands have prepared" (Exodus 15:17), and what the saints make?

J.T. Yes; Paul refers to the foundation he had laid, and let a man be careful how he builds on that: "I have planted; Apollos watered; but God has given the increase", 1 Corinthians 3:6; and then we have the idea of "the temple of God" (verse 16), that is the shrine, and all must work out from that, "the Spirit of God dwells in you".

A.H. Do we see the way things are bound together here in one tabernacle, all moving together?

J.T. Yes, and the remarkable way brethren are extending shows unity is there. Subdivisions carry the idea of unity, and it works out from the thought of the bread and the cup.

E.C.M. "In whom ye also are built together for a habitation of God in [the] Spirit", Ephesians 2:22.

J.T. The idea of growth there is remarkable, the assembly growing, to work out the assembly's place in the millennial day; the thing is completed when the saints come down from heaven with Christ for a thousand years, but all worked out with men as we

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are, as in the temple. Then we have verse 31, the veil, "And thou shalt make a veil of blue, and purple, and scarlet, and twined byssus; of artistic work shall it be made, with cherubim. And thou shalt attach it to four pillars of acacia-wood overlaid with gold, their hooks of gold; they shall be on four bases of silver. And thou shalt bring the veil under the clasps, and bring in thither, inside the veil, the ark of the testimony; and the curtain shall make a division to you between the holy [place] and the holiest of all"; it is the very centre of things, where God is.

Rem. And from that the truth of the temple is worked out in 1 Corinthians 3.

J.T. Yes, we have been helped in that for years; meetings have been dividing up, and God gets more, Christ gets more, and the saints get more, and so it goes on.

Rem. It is the great idea of expansion.

J.T. Well; in those days the meetings were very large and few could take part; it is not so now, there is more liberty, and this chapter works out like that. Then we have verse 34, "And thou shalt put the mercy-seat on the ark of the testimony in the holiest of all". Now we have what is usable, a table, "And thou shalt set the table outside the veil, and the lampstand opposite to the table on the side of the tabernacle southward; and thou shalt put the table on the north side", it is on the north side, it is more pressure, and that is there! And now it is the curtain at the entrance (verse 36), "And thou shalt make for the entrance of the tent a curtain of blue, and purple, and scarlet, and twined byssus, of embroidery. And thou shalt make for the curtain five pillars of acacia-[wood], and overlay them with gold; their hooks shall be of gold; and thou shalt cast five bases of copper for them". The copper means strength in the external position, but all the most precious things are inside.

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A.H. Is there a link with the copper altar in the next chapter?

J.T. That altar was anointed seven times. It is Christ in the sense of bearing things, and of suffering; a most sorrowful thing happens among the saints causing suffering to many.

A.H. Would it be like Paul filling up the sufferings of Christ (Colossians 1:24)?

J.T. Yes; he says, "that which is behind", as if some had not suffered enough.

A.H. So Epaphras was "always combating earnestly for you in prayers", Colossians 4:12.

J.T. That is Colossians, and personality comes in there; certain brothers are mentioned that are important in the assembly, especially Epaphras, combating earnestly for them in prayers. We are to combat with them, too, that the saints "may stand perfect and complete in all [the] will of God", Colossians 4:12

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THE ASSEMBLY ON EARTH, AND AS COMING DOWN OUT OF HEAVEN

Revelation 1:9 - 11; Revelation 21:1 - 7

J.T. The suggestion is to compare the first scripture with the one in chapter 21, and to see how the first is possible, that is the assembly as having an existence on the earth in localities, and then to see its place in heaven so as to come down, not sent down, or falling down as Satan, but "coming down out of the heaven from God". The first chapter enables us to gauge what the assembly is now upon earth, in peculiar circumstances, not as in Acts 2, but as found long after the Holy Spirit had come down. It indicates how God is guarding and protecting it, and how the Lord Jesus is present in relation to it. In verse 12 it reads, "And I turned back to see the voice which spoke with me; and having turned, I saw seven golden lamps", John says again what he saw in chapter 21, not seven, but one, and that one in the form of a city, later spoken of as the tabernacle of God with men. So that we have to consider, why is the change? Why the happenings contemplated in the early chapters of Revelation? And why is the Lord's garb different? As it is said, "And in the midst of the seven lamps one like the Son of man, clothed with a garment reaching to the feet, and girt about at the breasts with a golden girdle: his head and hair white like white wool, as snow; and his eyes as a flame of fire; and his feet like fine brass, as burning in a furnace; and his voice as the voice of many waters; and having in his right hand seven stars; and out of his mouth a sharp two-edged sword going forth; and his countenance as the sun shines in its power", Revelation 1:13 - 16. Then before that we have "I John", a personal thought, a distinct personality, "your

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brother and fellow-partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and patience, in Jesus, was in the island called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus", showing that such things were existent though there was such a change in the Lord's presence and His garb.

Ques. Why was there such a thing as "the tribulation and kingdom and patience, in Jesus"?

J.T. To bring out the actual facts of the case; he was imprisoned, and yet capable of being affected spiritually. He "became in [the] Spirit on the Lord's day", that is he was still amenable to the Spirit actually, and observant of the Lord's rights here on a certain day, and he turns back, as if the position was radically changed. It was "a great voice as of a trumpet", and he "turned back to see the voice", and tells us what he saw. He did not see the Lord in relation to the service of God, but in judicial garb, which in itself explains why it changes. And then in chapter 21 he sees the eternal position of the new heavens and the new earth, and later the bride, the assembly, which he sees in the character of a city, which is a political thought, which would suggest what she is to be presently in the millennium. It is a Jewish thought transferred to what is new.

A.H. In working out the practical thought of the assembly "your brother" stands.

J.T. Yes, and carries with it the thought of the assembly, as in John 20, "my brethren". It is "my assembly" according to Matthew 16. One here in tribulation and patience, yet "your brother ... in Jesus".

A.H. Why "in"?

J.T. The idea still retains power; it is what we have in the twos and the threes, and what we know in Jesus.

A.H. It is significant that the brotherly relation is stressed later on by Paul.

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J.T. Paul retained the thought; one who was with him was a brother, it was not official.

F.I. Is it a view of things from the public side taking account of the declension?

J.T. Yes. We can still meet together; none forbidding it, and even if they call us 'brethren', or dub us with any other name! ... Well, it is not 'forbidding' us; Acts 28:31. Centuries ago we should have had to be connected with the established church; we should not have been allowed to preach in the open. It is probably explained by our prayers being heard in heaven that the authorities are not forbidding us, even where the Roman Catholics rule.

Rem. It is "for the testimony of Jesus".

J.T. Yes; it is the same now; we have these good rooms, for our prayers are being heard, and God has intervened. There is this ordering, this voice which we can speak of between ourselves, and the Lord's garb, and then we have the localities, and the Lord is in our midst, "I saw seven golden lamps, and in the midst of the [seven] lamps [one] like [the] Son of man". He is still in the midst; it is a prophetic position, not exactly an ecclesiastical position, as in the Acts, where the Lord can be spoken of in His relations to the assembly, as well as to Israel. The prophetic position means that they do not understand, yet it is a great advantage, too. They are real Christians around us, and yet they do not understand what we say. The language is perfectly understood with us; it is judicial, and marks off our position.

Rem. John credits the saints with the same features that marked him, so he is their "brother and fellow-partaker", and he also has the power to abstract himself.

J.T. Yes; and none outside understand; it is a dead and unknown language to them, yet we enjoy it, for the Lord is here, and the Holy Spirit, too. He was not far from John, one He loved, and He unfolded

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the greatest things to him, as we have in chapter 21 particularly. Am I speaking in riddles?

F.I. No. Are you linking chapter 1 with chapter 21? The latter the spiritual side, but the first chapter is the declension.

J.T. The declension, yes, and in the midst of it One who knows; it is an intervention from heaven immediately; yet these garments are not an intervention, but an indication of what is coming in the millennium; so that we can talk of them intelligently, and so that we can be transferred from the actual state of things into the spiritual side in chapter 21.

A.H. Would the exercise of having left "thy first love" produce the features of the assembly in chapter 21?

J.T. I think so. That is a culmination of thoughts such as we have in the beginning in chapter 4, where John is caught up into heaven, and all that follows that, and then we come to our own things and atmosphere. In the meantime this prophetic matter has to be attended to, "For the spirit of prophecy is the testimony of Jesus" (Revelation 19:10), so that we are happily in these things; outside no one understands.

Rem. This inability to understand would be judicial.

J.T. Yes, certainly. In Matthew we have what we may call parabolic ministry, in chapter 13 particularly, and the idea is that the truth is hidden, but that is because it is judicial. So God is asserting that He is not pleased with what is in the denominations of Christendom, and the parabolic and the prophetic ministry are like a veil to them.

A.M. John is willing to turn back to see.

J.T. I think so; John represents a brother; he is not as the Archbishop of Canterbury, but a brother; here he is not even a great apostle, even though he is

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that; and as he has access to God, he retains the brotherly spirit, and that is the great hope for all of us. In the late wars it has been seen, the brother that suffered in all kinds of ways, and yet found his way to where the brethren were. So it says, "I, John, your brother and fellow-partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and patience, in Jesus, was in the island called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus". He was in prison, as many have been and still are, not suffering for anything exceptional, but in an isle called Patmos, and yet he was in touch with the brethren, and the position there was held because of the testimony.

Ques. Why "Jesus" so often in this book?

J.T. It is to bring out the personal relations of the Lord to the brethren.

Rem. These features and this spiritual power enable them to be with the Lord and to go through the declension.

J.T. Yes; "And when I saw him I fell at his feet as dead; and he laid his right hand upon me, saying, Fear not; I am the first and the last, and the living one" (verse 17); that is the word for John or for anyone else; it is to assure him he need not fear. So the Lord says further, "and I became dead, and behold, I am living to the ages of ages, and have the keys of death and of hades"; how wonderful, what power! And then what John has to write; the Lord has His finger on everything. He has His Johns now, and hence all the writing!

Ques. Does His right hand indicate power?

J.T. Yes; as much as to say, I know you, and all about it; I know the public position; I tell you not to fear, and hence come up to heaven, and that is the inlet to chapter 21. There is no pretension with him, but a man "in the Spirit" has access to heaven.

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Ques. What is implied in John's becoming "in the Spirit"?

J.T. It refers to Christianity, and whether things are being changed from the actual to the spiritual, as with Peter in Acts 10; the same things are true now as then. "I became in the Spirit", John says; he is capable of being changed, but it is not so visible now as it was. We are not pretending to anything. These are facts of a peculiar nature here; they are not found anywhere else; they are apocalyptic, the veil is removed.

Rem. "I became" shows the exercise he had to become wholly spiritual.

J. T. Yes; in his ordinary circumstances John was not in assembly as far as we know, like Jesus Himself as a Man here in ordinary circumstances, yet it is said of Him, "subsisting in the form of God", Philippians 2:6. These scriptures show it is not ordinary, for it is the Apocalypse and a premium is attached to it; Revelation 1:3. And even at the Lord's feet John had to learn that there was something more that he had to do, to write. The revival began with the understanding of the prophetic ministry.

Ques. Why does He say, "I became dead"?

J.T. It is prophetic language.

A.H. John needs seeking out.

J.T. Yes; when Paul was in prison, some did not seek him out, but some did; 2 Timothy 1:17.

A.W.P. Could you help us further as to the ecclesiastical position and the prophetic position?

J.T. Ecclesiastical refers to the church, and then the prophetic position is apocalyptic.

F.I. Do you make a difference between John and Paul?

J.T. Yes, certainly. Paul is the ecclesiastical man; he would get you out of the world, but the prophetic man is John. So John is holding to Jewish terms, but in new creation, and we have it here,

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"Behold, I make all things new" (Revelation 21:5), and then we have the political thought of the "new Jerusalem" (verse 2).

Rem. All is new in Christianity.

J.T. Quite so.

Rem. In the recovery, J.N.D. devoted himself first to prophecy, and then to the kingdom, and then to the assembly.

J.T. Quite so.

Rem. So that we have the topstone in the assembly ministry.

J.T. Yes. But John was the man loved and reserved. Peter was the official man, but John can be anything, "If I will that he abide until I come" was said to Peter (John 21:22), and here we have it. John is loved, and he loves the brethren; he is the man I need, and it is a question whether the Lord can take us on, and we can do anything for His pleasure.

Rem. Paul speaks of "the testimony of the Christ", 1 Corinthians 1:6.

J.T. This is not the testimony of the Christ but "the testimony of Jesus".

Ques. Is there a distinction between that and the word of God?

J.T. The word of God is Himself. It is said in Hebrews 4:12, "the word of God is living and operative, and sharper than any two-edged sword", and that upturns everything, and lets the truth out. The Lord can speak mysteriously, as to the state of the assemblies, etc.; but it is the word of God that is used every Lord's day evening by persons to expose what is wrong.

A.H. Paul is concerned"to complete the word of God" (Colossians 1:25), but John shows us how.

J.T. Yes. Do not forget the kingdom. So there is to be power in our meetings, not mere platitudes.

Ques. What is the significance of the seven

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assemblies here, and the one assembly in Revelation 21?

J.T. The seven refer to localities, and the one to the whole assembly. It is a question of state, whether we are usable; John was "in the Spirit"; that was the secret.

Ques. What is meant by "a bride adorned"?

J.T. Where did she get it? It does not say. She got it in relation to ministry, and what the Spirit of God is unfolding.

Rem. We should be careful as to how we hear the ministry.

J.T. Yes; it is not a question of the colleges; it is what the Lord has. The ministry now is to prepare the Lord's people for Christ.

Ques. Does it involve His service of "washing of water by [the] word", Ephesians 5:26?

J.T. Yes; and "Blessed [are] they that wash their robes" (Revelation 22:14), which is prophetic.

Rem. That is peculiar to John's ministry.

J.T. Yes. How the Lord trusted John. He trusted him with His mother; she is constituted John's mother, that is John takes her into his own house. Wonderful, when you think of what He thought of His mother! The Lord is doing things in a mysterious way, and has men He can trust to do them for Him. It is a mysterious thing.

F.I. Can we apply this to the service of God, and the assembly being His, Christ's, companion, as adorned for Him?

J.T. Yes, indeed, "as a bride adorned for her husband".

A.H. It is the beautiful feminine position. We often hurry over it on Lord's day morning.

J.T. Well, I agree. We had a little of it this morning, when the Lord was with us. John's relations with the Lord are most important to consider; he is one He can trust; "Fear not", He says, and

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then He tells him who He is. That is all opened up in the ministry, the Collected Writings of J.N.D., and the like. The brethren are few, and yet there are many letters of commendation bringing together and continuing what He has all over the earth. The local position is emphasised here in the seven assemblies; that is where He is, "in the midst of the seven lamps one like the Son of man"; Revelation 1:13. He does not take on anything like the Church of England, but His own church. What a description of quality we have! We can have anything for a meeting-room, but the Lord maintains His own dignity.

G.J.D. It is a "great voice" in chapter 1:10, and a "loud voice" in chapter 21:3.

J.T. Very good.

Rem. There is what the Spirit says, too.

J.T. Yes; this is the time of the Spirit's speaking; who can question it? Rome says, the Church speaks; it is a lie!

A.H. John's ear was attuned to the speaking.

J.T. Yes.

A.M. What is meant by John's seeing the voice (Revelation 1:12) and in chapter 21: 1,2, "And I saw"; does seeing enter into the present time?

J.T. Persons who see go back to the gospel for a second touch as in Mark 8:25. It meant that he saw everything clearly, and if that is properly understood, the Revelation can thus also be understood. It is the Lord's book, His own book; who understands it? Not puzzled by it, for those who see understand.

Ques. Do we know anything of the bride being adorned for her husband?

J.T. It is today; it is a great ministry through J.N.D. and others, the Lord's supper and now the assembly.

F.I. We say sometimes, We do not see a thing; do we make room for the service of the Holy Spirit?

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J.T. Well, if we look into things they become clear.

Ques. Are we to develop wifely features and sympathetic feelings?

J.T. Yes; and so in our prayer meetings things get unfolded, they are opened up there; it means loyalty to David, "Thine [are we], David, and with thee, thou son of Jesse", 1 Chronicles 12:18. It is "For where two or three are gathered together unto my name, there am I in the midst of them" (Matthew 18:20), so that to the "two of you" (Matthew 18:19) everything is clear.

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INSTRUCTION IN VIEW OF THE SERVICE OF GOD

1 Corinthians 11:17 - 26; Acts 20:7 - 12; Hebrews 2:10 - 12; Revelation 22:16,17

J.T. It is well to remark at the outset that there is more than a creed given in Scripture that should govern us in carrying on the service of God. It is a question of teaching, we have to be taught, not simply to learn the creed but to be taught from the Scriptures, as suggested, and find out the terms that should be used from the teaching. The converts at the beginning, according to Acts 2, "persevered in the teaching and fellowship of the apostles, in breaking of bread and prayers", Acts 2:42. It is obvious, therefore, that we are to learn, if we are to have part in the service of God, to learn by teaching, by what is taught, and gather up, through instruction, what we should say -- to God, to the Lord and to one another. So these scriptures are suggested because they contain, first of all the teaching of the Lord's supper. The terms or words comprise what is intimated in the breaking of bread, which means it covers not only the bread broken, but the cup as well. The whole terminology governing the whole institution, is the Lord's supper. The Lord's supper would be a synonym of the breaking of bread. The passage in Acts 20 is to show how the early Christians themselves kept, and how they regarded the institution of the Lord's supper, and how particularly instead of breaking bread at once as the disciples came together, before breaking bread Paul discoursed at length to them as if he would teach them at length, going that way so that they might know how to carry out the service. Hebrews gives us the terms that we should use in speaking to God, to the Lord. The passage in

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Revelation indicates plainly that the assembly is the bride, the Lamb's wife. She is called the bride in the passage read. The Spirit and the bride say "Come", they both say the same thing, showing that the assembly is very near to the Spirit. All these passages taken together, and many others like them, would serve to save us from wrong usage of terms or words of scripture, but rather that we should know how to use the Scriptures, and if we use them to quote them aright, and to speak of them intelligently. 1 Corinthians 10 says, "I speak as to intelligent persons", the apostle speaks to the Corinthians and regards them as intelligent persons in that chapter, whereas in chapter 11 he has to say they were not doing what was right. He cannot approve of what they were saying, but he uses the term "Lord's supper" as formally right in governing the service.

Eu.R. Would Paul's discourse being extended involve that Paul's ministry and the Lord's supper have always run along side by side?

J.T. I would say so. Paul is the minister of the assembly, as he speaks authoritatively in a peculiar way, so he says in the passage read, "But in prescribing to you on this which I now enter on, I do not praise, namely, that ye come together, not for the better, but for the worse". He is very plain in condemning what they were doing. He quotes exactly what the Lord did Himself, in verse 23, and all this is to help us to know what to do when we come together to break bread.

D.C. Did I understand you in your prayer to intimate that it is possible for us to come together for the worse?

J.T. It is possible. Most of the sects around us come together for the worse. In general what they do is a travesty of the truth, but the Lord has taught the brethren so that we shall know what to do and what to say, therefore we are at liberty to come

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together, and to have in mind what we have read in these scriptures, especially what Paul writes and says. In chapter 10 the cup is put before the bread, which is to be understood. We would make a great mistake if we took the order of the Lord's supper from chapter 10, we should take it from chapter 11, because the order was being reversed and so the thing had to be set right.

H.R. Is that what you mean when you say 'terminology'?

J.T. The terms that should be used. It is not a creed, it is something that should be understood and gathered up through our meditation, our Bible readings and our home readings. We should seek to learn things continually.

V.S. So it is important to take account of what the apostle says; he received from the Lord. Does not that involve authority?

J.T. It is a direct word from the Lord to Paul, "I received" it, the earlier apostles had knowledge of the Lord's supper, but they had not received a special message with regard to it.

H.R. Is that why there is a difference in this from what the others give us in Matthew and Mark?

J.T. Just so. Matthew, Mark and Luke all speak of the Lord's supper, but not to bring out the order of it, although Luke comes very near to what Paul writes. Paul gives us the exact order in this passage, chapter 11. Acts 20 would intimate that Paul himself, in coming to a particular place, had in view to instruct these people at Troas; evidently they needed instruction, otherwise he would not have spoken at length. He even continued to speak after a certain thing had happened, which brought out how careful the Lord was for His people and for the service, that the thing that happened -- the boy falling -- should not interfere and damage the truth. Paul enfolded the boy in his arms; he was not only a good teacher, but

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he was a lover, he had love in his heart, and he had intelligence enough to know that the boy was not dead.

Eu.R. Is there significance in the first day of the week being mentioned, and "we being assembled", the word 'assembled' being brought in?

J.T. That is good. It is such terminology that should be used both as to the day and the formation of the meetings, the character of the gatherings -- "we being assembled". It does not say, 'the disciples were' but the writer was apparently there and he says "we being assembled", the antecedent to that is the disciples were assembled.

H.R. We learn how to assemble?

J.T. Exactly.

R.B. Would you say they were in assembly in Acts 11? They came together but not in the sense in which you were speaking of in 1 Corinthians 11, "When ye come therefore together into one place, it is not to eat the Lord's supper".

J.T. He is using the right word only to show that what they were doing was not right, to outward appearances they were assembled, but they were not assembled.

Eu.R. Despising the assembly of God.

J.T. Not acting rightly according to the word. It shows that we might be assembled, and be assembled for the worse as has often happened, whereas he is endeavouring to put them right in what he quotes from the Lord's own doings.

G.G. If we are right, what are the thoughts that would be filling our minds as we assemble?

J.T. It is rather a question of excluding what is unsuitable. We should not be thinking of ordinary things, we have come together for a purpose and the mind is appealed to, that our minds should be set on the one thing we have come for. The Lord has His place amongst us for it is called the "Lord's supper",

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not 'God's supper' or the 'Spirit's supper'. What should be in our minds is the Lord and His absence and we are calling Him to mind.

G.C.G. You were saying the other day that in regard to what we may speak of as the formality of the breaking of bread, the simpler we are about it the better. Would that simplicity be brought about by affection for Christ, thinking of Him with a desire to call Him to mind? Would that help us?

J.T. Very much. The idea of assembling -- how we come -- with our minds set on the thing, we are not thinking of other things but of the one thing. We are thinking of the Lord because it is His supper. The mind is taken up with Christ. We are told elsewhere that we have the mind of Christ, a faculty of thinking as He does.

Eu.R. The light in which we sit down is expressed in the footnote, "For the calling of me to mind". That is governing us as we come together and sit down.

J.T. Therefore anything we may say to the Lord is to Him. It is not to God or to the Spirit, it is to the Lord. We are confined and somewhat limited in that sense, and become enlarged as the theme opens up, and as the idea of the glory as related to the service opens up, for it is from glory to glory.

-- .S. Would you say that we only speak intelligently as we give place to the Spirit?

J.T. Quite so. No one can say Lord Jesus except by the Spirit. We say it in power.

G.C.G. Would it be apropos to distinguish between the first day of the week and the Lord's day, in this matter?

J.T. I think so. There must be some guide to regulate the days of the week. The first day synchronises with the Lord's day only the first day is more affectionate as to the day of the week. It is used in John 20 twice over on "the first day of the week".

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It is of very great importance in connection with the subject with which we are now engaged.

G.C.G. Having reference to the supreme place Christ has in our affections?

J.T. And to lay the base for our affections. We are told He was raised by the Father's glory, and it was on that day.

Eu.R. Do the Lord's day and the Lord's supper run along together, and the first day of the week and the breaking of bread? The Lord's day would be more the authority of the Lord. John uses it in Revelation 1, and it would point to the Lord's authority, "I became in [the] Spirit on the Lord's day", Revelation 1:10 The Lord is entitled to any day but especially the Lord's day.

W.S. What are we to learn by Eutychus being overpowered by a deep sleep?

J.T. The warning would be to young people. We thank God that we have so many young people who are breaking bread and we might say they have everything to learn and there is a need of looking into the Scriptures and following up every means of help so that they might know how to serve God.

Eu.R. Keeping awake to Paul's ministry.

J.T. In spite of the fact that the greatest teacher on earth at that time was there -- and if we loved Christ we should be most attentive if we were there -- yet he goes to sleep, and it was at the window-opening, as if he were looking out. It is a warning to the young people not to be world bordering, but to learn to be intelligent, to use their minds because they are given to us to use. They are the greatest faculty we can have under our control and if we love Christ we shall keep Christ before us when we come to partake of that which speaks of His death and all that goes to the service of God in it.

J.S. Why is the young man's name given us?

J.T. To remind us that he was worth naming;

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his name was registered in heaven, he had a place there. The names of the sons of the brother who carried the Lord's cross are given us-Alexander and Rufus -- to remind us of the place heaven gives such.

E.F. Is the suggestion that listening to Paul's ministry keeps us in life? They brought away the boy in life.

J.T. Quite so. Caleb says God kept him alive for eighty-five years, he was taken account of by God from the outset.

V.S. The apostle's exhortation is to set our minds on things above, would that help us?

J.T. Quite so.

E.F. Would what Paul does here have reference to holding the truth in love?

J.T. Quite so, showing that he is characterised by love as well as by instruction. He said to the Ephesians that he was concerned that they should know his knowledge of the mystery, but it was more than that, it was that they were loved, and so it makes much of love, especially in 1 Corinthians 13. How important that those who serve the saints in ministry should be ready to love and care for them even if it is physical care! You would do anything for the saints to relieve the situation. Paul knew that life was in the boy when he had enfolded him in his arms, he had descended to do it. We often have to descend to do things for the saints, but we do it because we love them.

Eu.R. The breaking of bread and the privilege that follows calls for inwardness, the contrast of Eutychus in the window-opening.

J.T. The doors were shut, it would imply that no one should be let in to interfere. John 20 alludes to what exists at the breaking of bread, but Paul deals with what begins the service, so that the Lord is viewed as coming to them in chapter 20. "Jesus came and stood in the midst", John 20:19. We had this quite

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recently and it is helpful; we would like it to become more familiar to all of us tonight. John 20 has in mind "the midst", the general idea of the assembly, the article refers to the general idea of the assembly, but Luke says "in their midst", the local position.

Eu.R. "Jesus came and stood in the midst", John 20:19, are you coupling that with His coming to us by way of our calling Him to mind?

J.T. It is the general idea of the assembly because we want to express them all, the whole assembly should at least be reached before the service is over.

R.B. Does it involve an upward movement? Having gone up in Acts 20, they broke bread.

J.T. That helps us, it is an upward movement, but Paul had to descend to secure the boy alive. He would go out of the service to get that boy, it is a very humbling thing for the boy. Paul had to descend to secure him. They took him away, they did not leave him to go and play, but they took him with them.

G.P. Paul was following his Master.

J.T. Quite so. What will love not do. If a boy falls from an open window, love will go after him.

D.C. It has been said that the fall was inside the building, is there any ground for thinking that?

J.T. I would say that, but it is simply that he was at the open window.

R.B. It is suggestive that Paul had a sense in his own soul how the Lord had come down for him, he could come down and embrace the boy.

J.T. Very good. You might say there is a movement of that with everyone of us, the Lord personally goes after us and secures us, not that the Holy Spirit is not involved in it and God Himself, but it is a question of love.

I suppose we might move on to the passage in Hebrews to bring out the terms of the service. First of all we have in verse 10, "It became him", that is

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God Himself, "for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make perfect the leader of their salvation through sufferings". The sons of God are in mind there. Then verse 11 says, "For both he that sanctifies and those sanctified are all of one; for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren". That is from another point of view, they are brethren of Christ at this point. Verse 11 would come in before verse 10, because the question of order is not in view here, it is rather the great doctrine of the truth of the sons of God and the brethren of Christ, "for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, saying, I will declare thy name to my brethren; in the midst of the assembly will I sing thy praises". So that the order would be after the Lord's supper, I mean to say, if we are to link it on with Corinthians, the brethren come into view first, and then the assembly. You might say first the assembly, but they all run together really, as we shall see in Revelation 22 the Spirit and the bride are near together, but here the brethren are in mind and they form the assembly. It says, "For which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, saying, I will declare thy name to my brethren", it is "in the midst of the assembly" which evidently would be the second thought, and the third thought would be the sons of God.

Eu.R. "Will I sing thy praises", are the sons of God in that?

J.T. First the brethren and then the assembly is formed of the brethren, that is where the praises are sung, and the sons of God come in. In verse 11 Christ praises the Father -- God -- there in the midst of the assembly, and the thought of sonship would come in in verse 10, "For it became him", that is God, "for whom [are] all things, and by whom [are] all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make perfect the

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leader of their salvation through sufferings". In bringing sons to glory-that is the process, for service is involved in that, God is doing that, Christ has effected the brethren, He has brought them about, they form the assembly, but sons are those that God has, the sons are for God.

G.G. Could you say what peculiarly delightful thoughts Christ would have in referring to the brethren in this connection of the service?

J.T. He says "My brethren". He said to Mary, take this message, "Go to my brethren". He also speaks about the assembly as His. "Go to my brethren".

G.C.G. It would be clear that the term 'brethren' which we are now considering would be in every way equal to the term the Lord uses in John 20.

J.T. That is what I understand. The word 'assembly' would be included in "mine" (as in John 17) and in the brethren. The assembly might also be taken as on equal footing with both, the terms are of equal value whether they are under the eye of the Father or under the eye of Christ, they are of equal value.

H.R. At which point should we address the Lord in bridal relations in this connection?

J.T. Early. The Lord speaks of Himself, "In the midst of the assembly will I sing thy praises", but the praises are sung to God.

-- .K. The "he" in verse 11 is Christ?

J.T. That is Christ, but in verse 10 it is God.

Eu.R. Does verse 11 involve that He has set Himself above flesh and blood conditions, because we can have no part with Him in that connection, and He has taken up a new condition in resurrection in which there is this vast company all of His own order, the heavenly company, so that they are in every way suited to be called "brethren"?

J.T. The passage is to bring that out, the doctrine,

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not the order of it. In verse 12 it says "in the midst of the assembly will I sing thy praises". The "thy" is God the Father.

Eu.R. After the breaking of bread, as recognising we are all of one with Him, would we address Him in worship as "Firstborn among many brethren", Romans 8:29?

J.T. I think it is wise to keep that out. Let the Lord be the actor, and the "thy" the Father, the Person acted upon. It is a question of how to use terms of Scripture, to use them accurately and if we are speaking of Christ as singing in the midst of the assembly, the proper thing is to refer to Christ as being something to the Father.

Eu.R. Would that be after we have responded to Him in bridal relations? So is it first brethren, bride and sons in order?

J.T. I would place that order, too. I would think the terms are of equal value, the word 'brethren' and 'assembly' and the word 'bride' are all of equal value. They come in properly after the Lord is apprehended, first as in our midst in His own personal right, but what will He do, with the assembly, with His brethren? He will think of the Father. The final thought is God Himself.

Eu.R. "My Father and your Father, ... my God and your God", John 20:17

J.T. Quite so.

S.P. "In the midst of the assembly will I sing thy praises", is that resurrection or ascension?

J.T. The assembly is not on resurrection ground, that is simply on the way to the heavenly position. Ephesians gives you "raised us up together, and has made us sit down together in the heavenlies", Ephesians 2:6. "Made us sit down", is the figure to which resurrection is on the way, because resurrection may apply to Israel in principle, the world, but the position of the assembly must be on ascension ground; to make it anything less than that will not do, it lowers the

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tone of what we say. Ephesians goes the whole way, we are raised up together and made to sit down in the heavenlies in Christ.

Eu.R. So would risen in Christ, the fruit of His love in death, test our spiritual ability to rise to the higher level? Our status is never less than that.

J.T. Romans never speaks of us as risen with Christ. Christ is risen in Romans, but we are not risen with Him in Romans. It is Colossians and Ephesians that say that. When we come together on the first day of the week, from our houses, it would be in the sense of being disciples. We are the Lord's people and all that goes with it.

G.C.G. In the verse we are now noticing we are sons. I suppose it is a wholly spiritual matter, and dependent upon the Lord being free to come to us and taking His place, and ourselves now merged with the whole assembly. It would be beyond the local position now.

J.T. John does not use the word 'sons' except in Revelation, but Paul does. I believe what you say is right, "in the midst of the assembly" is the whole position, and that is what we are as sons of God and brethren of Christ.

L.R. What does the prophet Zephaniah refer to when he says, "He will rejoice over thee with joy", Zephaniah 3:17?

J.T. It is Jehovah there, of course. When we are speaking of using pronouns for divine Persons it may be Christ, as in John's epistle. It is a question of spiritual understanding to know how to use these terms, and therefore the Old Testament terms have not always gone the whole way. 'Jehovah' does not go as far as 'Father'.

Eu.R. Would you say a word as to "My Father and your Father, ... my God and your God", John 20:17?

J.T. It is a beautiful expression and used to a woman, which is to be noted. It is a sister that carries the message. It is more a question of spirituality

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than order; a sister can be spiritual, and as spiritual or more so, than a brother, and yet she is not to speak in the assembly. So we should think of all these things when using terms so that we do not misplace them. John 20 shows how the Lord is taken up with the thought of spirituality in a sister and how He can employ them and use them in the service. It cannot be applied formally in assembly service because she is a sister, but it shows that that sister ought to have sufficient intelligence to enter into what is current. Sisters are able to take things in and support what is going on.

W.S. Is the thought of God something beyond Father? Very often we finish with a note addressing the Father.

J.T. I think John 20 would show that God is the final thought, that God should be all in all, which is the final thought. That is 1 Corinthians 15, he refers to what God is.

Eu.R. Is relationship more stressed in Father and absoluteness more in God?

J.T. You mean family relationships, whereas God is absolute, therefore the first mention of God is in the plural. The word 'God' in Genesis is a plural word, showing His supremacy, and that is carried through. God is "all in all".

Eu.R. That does not involve the three Persons, but stresses supremacy.

J.T. Intelligence would be needed to use it, it is not 'God all and in all' but "God all in all", that is everything. He is everything in all. The plural word, as we were saying, in the Old Testament, is to bring out that very thing, the supremacy of God.

Eu.R. We have got so used to the expression "God our Father" that we sometimes continue to use it when the height of the service may be reaching toward our God, do you think? Whereas, if we were encouraged to drop the name 'Father' and be

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shorter, perhaps, in relation to the high altitude we should find the service greatly helped.

J.T. There must be the idea of God by itself -- God may be all in all.

E.F. Would full knowledge of the fulness of God in Ephesians 3 have any bearing on what you are saying?

J.T. Quite so. It works out the thought of the Father, bowing my knees to the Father, but it is working up to the thought of God, that we might be filled even to all the fulness of God. That is final, we cannot compass the thing, but we are in it.

S.P. Would the declaration of the Father's name to us as brethren give us liberty to address Him as Father, not God so much as God and Father?

J.T. I would not say we cannot do that, "Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ", 2 Corinthians 1:3, but there is such a thing as 'Abba' which is the same as 'Father' in another language, but 'God' can be used by itself to bring out its supremacy. It all reverts back to Him and that is what the Lord Jesus is set for that everything should revert back to Him.

G.C.G. The expression "Of him, and through him, and for him" (Romans 11:36) is a very great one.

J.T. Hebrews 2:10, "For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory", that is what we are speaking of.

G.C.G. I was referring to Romans, but it seems on the same lines.

J.T. 1 Corinthians 8:4 - 6 would help us, for that is like what we have here. We have the order of divine Persons and the order of address as set out by teaching. We do not listen to what others are saying but we are taught by what is said, continuing and persevering in the apostles' teaching.

Eu.R. So we get the verse Mr. G. was quoting in Romans "of him, and through him, and for him are

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all things: to him be glory" and in Ephesians "To him be glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus throughout all generations of the age of ages", Ephesians 3:21.

J.T. We seem to finish with that whenever we deal with these matters. Paul says he wished them to know what he knew about it -- wonderful man who knew everything, divinely taught, fully taught.

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CONCERNING THE COLLECTION

1 Corinthians 16

A.H. I was wondering before proceeding to chapter 16, if you would give us a word as to chapter 15, as to the apostle's glad tidings.

J.T. The question is whether the brethren have already gone through that chapter. One thing to note is, they had received the glad tidings he had announced to them, but having received them, they had committed themselves. It opens up much and bears on the general position of the truth as we have it at the present time. As chapter 16 was read one was impressed with the apostolic features that enter into it. There had been enquiry as to certain things, the collection especially, and then the attention to certain persons, as Timothy, Apollos, Stephanas, and Aquila and Priscilla; it struck me as if chapter 16 should open up something to us, too.

Ques. Would the truth of resurrection in chapter 15, especially verse 58, give power for what is done in chapter 16?

J.T. Quite so, and shows how a minister may descend from the loftiest and most important truth to the ordinary things, such as the collection. What enters into the service of an apostle enters into this whole book, because of what they were saying as to him, and also they were saying that there was not a resurrection. Evidently he had in mind that there was a finish to the matter of the resurrection, and this should come into all our meetings, as the "hem of the garment"; the subject is finished in the apostle's mind. So we can now turn to something else, and they had written to him as to the collection. I hardly know of anything more spoken of than this of late years.

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Ques. Does this refer to a special collection or to the ordinary routine of the saints?

J.T. It is an allusion to a special collection, "Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I directed the assemblies of Galatia, so do ye do also". Then he proceeds to tell them what to do. It was a question of a collection "for the saints", not for the ordinary things, like the rent and so forth, but "for the saints". Much scope has been given to it of late years, but there are still enquiries.

Rem. Paul writes with apostolic authority.

J.T. Yes; no ordinary brother would speak in that language, I think. Apostolic language, yes! ... but it is something by itself. John speaks of "our fellowship" (1 John 1:3), that is, of the apostles "with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ" the fellowship in which they would use apostolic language. In Acts 2:42 it says, the converts "persevered in the teaching and fellowship of the apostles" showing the place they had then; no others had a special place with the Father and the Son, and Paul would have entered into this, though he came in late, as he says in 1 Corinthians 15:8.

Ques. Do we obey apostolic teaching in the letter as well as in the spirit?

J.T. Well, the letter may not always apply, and only an apostle could use such language.

Rem. I was thinking of the word in verse 2, "On the first of the week let each of you put by at home"

J.T. That was a special thing that they wrote to him about, "On the first of the week let each of you put by at home, laying up in whatever degree he may have prospered, that there may be no collections when I come". It is a question of discernment as to whether such an incident applies now, and whether it was local or general; evidently there was current need then with the saints in Jerusalem.

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Ques. Why does he say, "that there may be no collections when I come"?

J.T. He did not wish to influence them. He wished them to move in love.

Ques. Was not this collection the most important thing in Paul's mind?

J.T. Well, yes, and in the second epistle it was very much in his mind because of the viewpoint of the Jewish believers.

P.L. God's providential ways being used for the unification of the saints.

J.T. Just so, and even an apostle governed by such things as Paul suggests, and Timothy would have been also (verse 10). Paul had no special claim on Apollos, he represents independent service or ministry; but there was such a thought as apostolic ministry, and authority, too, and going on to other services, too; it existed then, but not now.

R.H.P. The saints in Macedonia are not mentioned in this chapter. The same directions would not be needed by them.

J.T. Just so. Read 2 Corinthians 8, "But we make known to you, brethren, the grace of God bestowed in the assemblies of Macedonia; that in a great trial of affliction the abundance of their joy and their deep poverty has abounded to the riches of their [free-hearted] liberality. For according to [their] power, I bear witness, and beyond [their] power, [they were] willing of their own accord, begging of us with much entreaty [to give effect to] the grace and fellowship of the service which [was to be rendered] to the saints", 2 Corinthians 8:1 - 4. It is good to compare the scriptures.

What we go on with is a matter of instruction, so that if Macedonia was not instructed, and the Galatians and Corinthians were, then it means that they needed it, and that is why he speaks as he does. Then we have verse 3, "And when I am arrived, whomsoever ye shall approve, these I will send with letters to

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carry your bounty to Jerusalem". All these matters bear on localities and would be local as to time. They enter into the apostle's own experience. So that this matter of instruction comes into what we are saying; it is not a rule or creed, but we have to be instructed, and if we have negatives, well, go by them. If they come in five hundred or three hundred years afterwards, well, we must be marked by the change.

Ques. What is involved in the word to lay by at home?

J.T. The Corinthians clearly needed this direction; there may have been something not mentioned as to the households that needed to be put in order.

Rem. We are expected to be intelligent at any given moment.

J.T. Clearly he had in mind that the collection had to be as much as possible, and to their glory.

Rem. In the special collection here the saints are encouraged to give without restraint.

J.T. The amount should be determined as seen in 2 Corinthians 8 and 9, "according to what he may have, not according to what he has not", 2 Corinthians 8:12.

Ques. How would that be stated in the notices?

J.T. Well; there is your administration, and what may enter into it; there is what a brother should have. But in leaving it open you have no budgeting, whereas we should consider what a brother has, what knowledge we have of those who labour, and also what we have; it is a question of 'equality', as the apostle says.

Ques. Does the intelligence of the saints come into this?

J.T. I think so. In New York we have it on that basis, what the brother has, and what the brethren have.

Rem. The need in Jerusalem would require all that the brethren could give.

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A.H. As to this point in this borough, is it right for the saints to give all they can?

J.T. The need should be named accordingly.

A.M. Are we to be aware of the need arising in any situation wherever in the world, for instance in Barbados?

J.T. The intelligence in leaving it open is doubtful. Suppose they gave ten times more than was needed! It should be regulated, and our minds should come into it, as was said to Abigail, "Blessed be thy discernment", 1 Samuel 25:33.

Rem. Some needs cannot be estimated, as the need in Jerusalem and the need in Germany.

J.T. Both sides must be looked into.

Rem. I was thinking especially as to the saints in Germany.

J.T. The whole question is as to discernment and intelligence and knowledge of the giving, and as to those to whom it is given.

A.H. It is not budgeting to leave it open.

J.T. No; the brethren should be responsible with the Lord's affairs, and intelligent according to 2 Corinthians 8 and 9, where it is a question of equality.

A.M. Abigail estimates what is given very carefully; the quantities are given; 1 Samuel 25:18.

J.T. Nowhere should affairs be more accurate than in the assembly, as acting through its leaders, the elders. Hence under Paul the thought of eldership arises. According to Acts 14:23 elders are appointed "in each assembly", and the apostle there is thinking they should know how to take care of the assembly.

Rem. In the giving for the tabernacle Moses left it open to the free-hearted liberality of the saints.

J.T. The giving had to be limited later.

Rem. It is unlimited as seen in David in

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1 Chronicles 22 and 29; would that refer to "the unsearchable riches of the Christ", Ephesians 3:8?

J.T. We see all this in David. There is what he gave as king, what he had derived from the wars, but there is also his own giving, which is less in quantity, but a better quality of gold; 1 Chronicles 29:3 - 5.

G.H.S.P. As to laying by at home, has this in view assembly giving or personal giving?

J.T. It would be local as to time, and governed by the circumstances. It is an apostolic matter, and the apostle did not wish to burden them unduly.

G.H.S.P. Would not laying by at home be a right principle?

J.T. I never did it. This is local as to time.

P.L. There is what Paul says to all the assemblies, and then to certain ones, incidental as to time.

J.T. "Thus I ordain in all the assemblies" (1 Corinthians 7:17), and then "we have no such custom, nor the assemblies of God" (1 Corinthians 11:16); that was a question of wearing a covering by sisters; not a local matter, but an individual matter.

Rem. Many have practised laying-by at home; a paper has been circulated as to it.

J.T. I want to see the brethren applying themselves to general principles more than to local.

Ques. Are not divine authority and power seen in the working out of things in the assembly?

A.H. And as to this working out of things in the assembly is not the care meeting responsible, for instance, in deciding how much is to be asked for?

J.T. Certainly, I would never leave things open; it is like a loose end; so "the hem of the garment" is a finished matter. The woman touched that in the gospels (Matthew 9:20 and Luke 8:44), and in Psalm 133 it is mentioned in the priestly garments.

P.L. That psalm is followed by Psalm 134 which refers to the priests standing by night in the house

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of Jehovah, and would link up with the foot dipped in oil in Deuteronomy 33:24.

J.T. Just so; standing by night taxes you.

Rem. There are many matters in Scripture that come up in assembly administration, but we need to apply general principles.

J.T. That is just it. There may be special things to be said.

P.L. We need to know the laws of navigation.

J.T. Also the depth of the water.

P.L. You do not sail only by the log-book.

J.T. Just so.

Ques. Do we need the "spirit of judgment" and the strength that is "to them that turn the battle to the gate", Isaiah 28:6?

J.T. The gate is where things are worked out.

A.H. In the Glasgow meetings reference was made to the great assembly principle of headship, and of one who thinks to be contentious; 1 Corinthians 11:16.

J.T. Yes. We must abide by general principles, not local, or we may become contentious.

P.L. Too much detail invites contention.

J.T. Just so.

Ques. Would they need Paul's help, "And when I am arrived" (verse 3)?

J.T. Just so, and the persons to be sent were local, and then as to staying or wintering with them, they are all local matters, though we may apply it to a brother going through a hard time with the brethren; and then we have verses 7 to 9, also having local application to Ephesus. Then we have Timothy referred to, also a local matter, but there is a principle in this as to labouring servants. If they are timid, like Timothy, let them be treated rightly, and not roughly dealt with. Then verse 12 as to Apollos, representing independent service; he came from Alexandria, and laboured on his own account.

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A.H. He was not a rival to Paul, but watered his ministry.

J.T. Yes; there were those who attacked Paul at Corinth, but Apollos would stand by him.

A.M. Are the two references to the work of the Lord in chapter 15:58 and chapter 16:10 (the work of Paul and Timothy) on the same level as the "work" in verse 16?

J.T. The reference to Paul and Timothy in verse 10 would be special. In verse 16 as to the house of Stephanas, it implies the general thought of the work.

A.M. We are liable to leave the work to a few; love should be active in all.

P.L. "The people had a mind to work" (Nehemiah 4:6); Corinth was a wall-building epistle.

A.H. Why does Paul make much of Timothy here?

J.T. He knew how Paul did things, and that he should pass on things he had learned, thus passing it on to us.

Rem. Paul could gather sticks; Acts 28:3.

J.T. That is special; this is general.

Rem. Timothy did as Paul did; "I have no one like-minded", Philippians 2:20.

J.T. Yes.

Rem. The whole of the tabernacle was the sphere of "the work".

J.T. That is the point, so that when the time came for the offerings, the princes offered the same amounts; "thus I ordain in all the assemblies", 1 Corinthians 7:17.

Ques. What would the reference to the house of Stephanas imply?

J.T. It would refer to the moral quality there.

Rem. "And to everyone joined in the work".

J.T. The same thing applies, but especially to the house of Stephanas, "it is the first-fruits of Achaia", showing that the whole thing is one.

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Rem. "Subject to such", to all that is spiritual.

J.T. There are moral rights in some servants that others have not got, and it was so in Stephanas, and the saints were to note that.

P.L. So we are to take character from the devotedness of the Lord Himself as referred to in 1 Corinthians 11, so that we drink in of His Spirit, as over against those in Corinth who were "reigning as kings".

J.T. Devotedness is a great feature.

A.M. Is "joined in the work" a commendable feature?

J.T. I think so.

Ques. Would "the work of the Lord" refer to the making of the tabernacle, and the pattern received by Moses on the mountain?

J.T. Yes; Paul had the pattern of the assembly and he intimates how things should be done. But we are not through the chapter yet!

A.H. Give us a word as to the brethren that Paul refers to in verses 17 to 19.

J.T. We have had already "the house of Stephanas, that it is the first-fruits of Achaia, and they have devoted themselves to the saints for service, that ye should also be subject to such, and to every one joined in the work and labouring"; and lower down it says, "own therefore such", that is those who are distinguished for devotedness in verse 17, and then we have "Aquila and Priscilla, with the assembly in their house, salute you much in [the] Lord. All the brethren salute you. Salute one another with a holy kiss. The salutation of [me] Paul with my own hand. If anyone love not the Lord [Jesus Christ] let him be Anathema Maranatha. The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ [be] with you. My love [be] with you all in Christ Jesus. Amen". We have here the curse, which shows how severe the apostle

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could be in such things. Apostolic ministry can be very severe.

Rem. Love to the Lord is the supreme test.

J.T. Yes.

Rem. In the last verse he says, "My love".

J.T. What a love it was, as shown in his history and the sufferings that the Holy Spirit allows him to write down; all he suffered!

A.H. He looks for help to be in the local assembly; the holy kiss is not to be lacking.

J. T . Yes; to kiss brothers is not customary here, but it is in France and Germany. The word 'holy' is very important; it is not selective or personal, but holy. These embraces in France and Germany, one wondered at them; often they dropped to the level of mere customs!

P.L. The regulation of divine principles is like the banks of a river.

J.T. Yes; like the rivers spoken of in the Psalms, for instance.

Ques. Do these salutations imply dignity?

J.T. They are used about twenty times in Romans 16, and it shows how much it is in the apostle's mind.

W.H.J.P. The epistle begins with grace and peace and ends with grace and love; in conclusion it is his own love that he refers to.

J.T. Yes; it was indicated in all his works and travels. As he says in chapter 13:8, "Love never fails". It is "the bond of perfectness", Colossians 3:14.

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PAUL'S TEACHING BEARING ON THE LORD'S SUPPER

Acts 20:7 - 12

J.T. The bearing of Paul's teaching on the Lord's supper is in mind. It is hoped that from what we may say it may be more clearly understood that Paul's doctrine is intended to bear on Christianity, and especially on the Lord's supper. In Acts 2 those that were convened, a large number, were said to have "persevered in the teaching and fellowship of the apostles, in breaking of bread and prayers", Acts 2:42. And in subsequent remarks it is said they were "breaking bread in the house", over against the temple; but now it is different. Paul having come in, his word must be accepted in all things, especially in relation to the Lord's supper, and the relation it has to the assembly. The verses read here indicate that before the breaking of bread took place, Paul discoursed at length and spoke with the brethren, and then they broke bread, as if his truth, his doctrine, should be understood before they actually broke bread. It cannot be assumed that there had been no breaking of bread before, with the company that waited for him in Troas, and all the days they had there; it cannot be assumed there was no breaking of bread, but the wording shows that what the apostle says must be heard before the Lord's supper occurred, and this gives rise to, and enters into, the Lord's supper and the celebration and order of it, and that Paul's word was to be made way for. "And the first day of the week, we being assembled to break bread, Paul discoursed to them, about to depart on the morrow", so that his place in the ministry clearly is the primary one. Also another question arises, as to

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how we are to be viewed, and under what name we are to be regarded as assembling to break bread.

Ques. What do you imply as to the name by which we are to be regarded?

J.T. What we are. The antecedent here is "the disciples" from verse 1, which reads, "But after the tumult had ceased, Paul having called the disciples to [him] and embraced [them], went away to go to Macedonia", and this thought runs down to the verse we began reading, "we being assembled".

Ques. Do we have to regard Paul's doctrine before we can take the Lord's supper properly; the gospel accounts are not enough?

J.T. The gospels take a secondary place to the apostle Paul's doctrine. If Paul had not been there, it would have been the twelve apostles only, and yet Peter could hardly have done it; his work was for the house and for the kingdom. Then there is the designation applying to "the first day of the week" when we assemble.

Ques. Is the thought of 'assembling' normal to 'disciples'?

J.T. Just so. "Assembled" is found in the first chapter as to the Lord Jesus "being assembled with [them], commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to await the promise of the Father, which said he ye have heard of me", Acts 1:4, as if the Lord Himself would be there and indicate how things were to be done. And the formal term 'disciples' comes into verse 1 of our chapter; it implies those willing to be taught.

Rem.. They are called by Paul to receive his embrace.

J.T. Yes. The idea of love characterises the whole chapter.

Ques. Is this kind of love to be found among us at the present time?

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J.T. Yes; we are to "have love amongst yourselves", John 13:35.

Rem. The disciples had no part in the tumult in chapter 19; they would be sympathetic with Paul.

J.T. Yes. So he calls them to him and embraces them, and then at the end of the chapter it says "they ardently kissed him". Verse 37 reads, "And they all wept sore; and falling upon the neck of Paul they ardently kissed him '(covered him with kisses, see note)', specially pained by the word which he had said, that they would no more see his face. And they went down with him to the ship". It shows the holy, happy, respectful relations that existed between him and the disciples. The whole chapter is a consolation to him, especially at Ephesus in view of his leaving; it was an apostolic departure, involving the removal of his influence, as when he was with them he had authority with them. So the earlier verses show that he had in mind the persons who accompanied him, not only the persons but his work, "And there accompanied him as far as Asia, Sopater son of Pyrrhus, a Berean; and of Thessalonians, Aristarchus and Secundus, and Gaius and Timotheus of Derbe, and of Asia, Tychicus and Trophimus", (verse 4), all were the outcome of his own work; they were intensely interested in what he was doing; the breaking of bread was in mind. "These going before waited for us in Troas; but we sailed away from Philippi after the days of unleavened bread, and we came to them to Troas in five days, where we spent seven days. And the first day of the week, we being assembled to break bread, Paul discoursed to them, about to depart on the morrow". We are not told what he said, but they would all be affected by it, and the conversational way he spoke. "And he prolonged the discourse till midnight. And there were many lights in the upper room where we were assembled. And a certain youth, by name Eutychus, sitting at the window-opening,

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overpowered by deep sleep, while Paul discoursed very much at length, having been overpowered by the sleep, fell from the third storey down to the bottom, and was taken up dead. But Paul descending fell upon him, and enfolding [him] [in his arms], said, Be not troubled, for his life is in him. And having gone up, and having broken the bread, and eaten, land having long spoken until daybreak, so he went away. And they brought [away] the boy alive, and were no little comforted". It was love operating to comfort the saints.

Ques. What would be the difference between the "discoursing" of verse 9 and the "long spoken" of verse 11?

J.T. One is discourse; it would be more lengthy, like an address; but conversation is that more than one is speaking, like Malachi 3:16, "Then they that feared Jehovah spoke often one to another". Conversational ministry can be classed as readings. Whether they had them is a question, but certainly they had something of the kind. At Glasgow we had these conversational meetings.

Ques. Would such occasions have in mind bringing the authority of the holy Scriptures to stop the inroads of false doctrine?

J.T. So they persevered in the apostles' doctrine, not in that of Moses and the prophets.

Rem. There was nothing in the Old Testament that they could refer to.

J.T. Just so. The apostles were outstanding at the beginning; there was no allusion to the Old Testament, it was the apostles' teaching, whatever it may have been.

Rem. The truth goes via Peter to Paul, and via Paul and Timothy to us.

J.T. Paul stresses that what he taught, the Lord warranted, that He had given him that place. No other had it, and so in order to get the truth we must

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consult Paul, especially as to the Lord's supper, and thus Paul would have the place that once Peter had in the minds of the saints.

Ques. Is Paul's epistle to the Corinthians basic?

J.T. Yes; especially so.

Ques. Is there any reason why it is here about the Lord's supper in a section running on to Ephesus and the whole counsel of God?

J.T. I would say that; so verse 22 says, "And now, behold, bound in my spirit I go to Jerusalem, not knowing what things shall happen to me in it; only that the Holy Spirit testifies to me in every city, saying that bonds and tribulations await me. But I make no account of [my] life [as] dear to myself, so that I finish my course, and the ministry which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the glad tidings of the grace of God. And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone about preaching the kingdom [of God], shall see my face no more. Wherefore I witness to you this day, that I am clean from the blood of all, for I have not shrunk from announcing to you all the counsel of God. Take heed, therefore to yourselves, and to all the flock, wherein the Holy Spirit has set you as overseers, to shepherd the assembly of God, which he has purchased with the blood of his own. [For] I know [this], that there will come in amongst you after my departure grievous wolves, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves shall rise up men speaking perverted things to draw away the disciples after them" (verses 22 - 30). All this was in view of his leaving; he had not left yet; and now we have this in chapter 20. He was not asked to say all this, but it was according to what the Lord had given him, the ministry of the assembly and the Lord's supper.

Rem. So we get the Supper at Troas, and at Ephesus the service of God.

J.T. Just so.

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Ques. What about the seven days at Troas?

J.T. That is good. It is a whole cycle, so that the whole week was ahead, and the order presented was that the first day was taken for the breaking of bread. In Acts 2:46 they broke bread in the house, but here it is upon the first day of the week.

Rem. That was consequent upon Paul's ministry, being received.

J.T. Yes.

Rem. This is not so much a pattern for us.

J.T. Well; it was to unfold the truth as to the Lord's supper.

Rem. We would take our understanding of it from 1 Corinthians 11:23, "For I received from the Lord, that which I also delivered to you".

J.T. I thought so.

Rem. We are to be impressed with the need of taking the Supper intelligently.

J.T. Yes; the brethren would do well to see that Paul's teaching takes the lead, and this scripture prominently, as Paul is in it all the time, "We being assembled to break bread, Paul discoursed to them".

Rem. So that there was love amongst the brethren.

J.T. Yes; they embraced Paul, and there is what we call one another.

Rem. There is nothing here as to the cup.

J.T. The breaking of bread covers it all.

F.S. Do you mean we call one another 'brethren'?

J.T. Yes. That is the name by which we are called.

Ques. Why do we get "disciples" in the gospels and the Acts, but not in the epistles; is it a practical matter?

J.T. Well, it shows they were learners; the apostle had in his mind that they should know something, and how we should be disciplined.

H.W. Would we be disciples in our hearts and minds?

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J.T. The mind is the governing faculty; every human being has a mind, and that governs the position more than the affections. The person has control of it, and thus it has a great place in the Lord's supper because it is for 'the calling of me to mind' (1 Corinthians 11:24, note i), that is to the mind of the persons who partake of it.

Rem. As to the Bereans it is said, "receiving the word with all readiness of mind", Acts 17:11.

J.T. So also we have "pure minds" and "renewed minds"; the mind has a primary place.

Rem. Paul says, "I speak as to intelligent persons", 1 Corinthians 10:15.

J.T. Yes.

Ques. What have we to learn from Eutychus and his life being in him?

J.T. That incident was to affect them all, and to give Paul a greater place amongst them. He enfolded the boy in his arms; what a real man he was!

Rem. He received him into the same place the brethren had, when Paul embraced them in verse 1.

J.T. Yes; if the Lord intends to bring anyone forward, He can do it.

Rem. No one but Paul could do this.

J.T. No.

Ques. How are disciples produced?

J.T. Well; what or who are we, Christians, disciples or brethren? But whose brethren are we? We should be acquainted with the vocabulary we use.

Rem. "The disciples were first called Christians in Antioch", Acts 11:26.

J.T. Yes; the word 'disciples' has its place.

Ques. Would there be special features in 'disciples' and 'Christians'?

J.T. Yes. Paul's influence had taken effect, and was no longer Jewish; it was a Christian position.

Ques. Are Barnabas and Saul in Acts 11 and 13 models of the Lord's work?

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J.T. I think much could be said as to Paul and Barnabas at this time. It shows that the local assembly had actually taken its place.

A.M. Would Isaiah 8:16 show that disciples come in at the end, as to a remnant holding things in a dark day?

J.T. That is good, and can be carried forward into the book of Acts. Jehovah's disciples had acquired a place of their own; they are really Messiah's disciples, and they come into the Acts, and give character to the whole work of God. But Paul was "an elect vessel to me" (Acts 9:15), that is to Christ, not to God; he was Christ's own peculiar vessel.

Ques. What would be involved in the long speaking till daybreak?

J.T. "And having gone up, and having broken the bread, and eaten, and having long spoken until daybreak, so he went away". It is somewhat different from "discourse" in verses 7 and 9.

Rem. But it is no less authoritative.

J.T. They were not to break bread till they did know. Love was brought in by the enfolding of Eutychus.

H.W. Would this discourse and long speaking have in mind the present day?

J.T. Yes; the discourse would remain.

Rem. "Until daybreak" is to impress us.

J.T. Well; J.N.D. was said to have been on his feet at 10 p.m., still discoursing.

Ques. Would the reference to "the disciples" in John 20:19 be on a higher level, perhaps Ephesian?

J.T. Yes. "When therefore it was evening on that day, which was the first day of the week, and the doors shut where the disciples were, through fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and says to them, Peace be to you", John 20:19. It was an assembly meeting, and may be compared with Luke 24:36,

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which is the same event; it is "their midst", but in John 20 it is "the midst".

Rem. Luke would be local, but John 20 universal.

J.T. I am glad you mentioned that; Luke links on with Troas. The Lord says further, "Have ye anything here to eat?" Luke 24:41.

H.W. Are our readings intended to be instruction for the gospel preachings?

J.T. Quite so, and that they might proceed according to the general position; notice the article 'the' in verse 11.

H.W. It is "the bread" that He broke in Luke 24:30.

J.T. That is what happened at Emmaus; the Lord waited for them and then broke the bread. What a series of events, and then He vanishes, bringing in the spiritual side.

Rem. The occasion at Emmaus was not in Jerusalem; it was local.

J.T. It was much spoken of in the early days, and it gradually became a community, and then they were first called Christians in Antioch. These things all show how the truth is formed, and all has been revived, and we become more and more accustomed to it. Take the fellowship meetings, how we become known to one another, and known as a community.

Rem. So that the truth of Corinthians leads to Ephesians.

J.T. Very good. Corinth comes into Acts. Paul is especially cheered there; the Lord said, "I have much people in this city", Acts 18:10. They were to be regarded as in the truth, but they got out of order so quickly. He told them to remember the directions, and not to deviate from them.

Ques. Would "daybreak" go on to the Lord's coming?

J.T. You might speak of it in that way, as to loving His appearing.

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Ques. What would the position in which Eutychus was found imply to us?

J.T. "And a certain youth, by name Eutychus, sitting at the window-opening, overpowered by deep sleep, while Paul discoursed very much at length, having been overpowered by the sleep, fell from the third story down to the bottom, and was taken up dead" I suppose the third loft is in keeping with the upper room; it is out of the way of things; it was "where were staying both Peter, and John, and James, and Andrew" (Acts 1:13); it was marked off from the temple, which is Jewish. In Luke 22:12 it says, "And he will shew you a large upper room furnished: there make ready"; and then in verse 39, "And going forth he went according to his custom to the mount of Olives, and the disciples also followed him". Jesus had a custom to go there in the days of His flesh; it is the link with heaven, as compared with the place where the Supper was taken; so the link with heaven is there.

Rem. The "upper chamber" in Acts 1:13 is in keeping with that.

J.T. Yes; in Elijah's time, he had a similar place, a loft perhaps, outside of what was current, and he came down and the boy was restored to life; 1 Kings 17:19. As a true servant he was not given the best room.

P.H. Would the "many lights" be seen in persons?

J.T. These men were luminous in their bodies.

Rem. They were sympathetic persons.

J.T. Yes; I know it well. One always finds more liberty where the brethren are instructed in the truth. Anyone could enquire from these men; as they said, "to Peter and the other apostles, What shall we do, brethren?" Acts 2:37.

Rem Eutychus "fell down" but Paul "descended".

J.T. Very humbling. The devil fell; the Lord

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says, "I beheld Satan as lightning falling out of heaven", Luke 10:18.

Rem. Paul's affections are seen here.

J.T. Yes, and that "his life is in him". Caleb says, "Jehovah has kept me alive, as he said, these forty-five years ... . And now behold, I am this day eighty-five years old. I am still this day strong"; Joshua 14:10, a remarkable word. So with love in Paul, and life in the boy, in bringing the two together you get something! The Lord said to Peter, "If I will that he abide until I come, what is that to thee?" John 21:22. They were all very inquisitive, but were not told, and sometimes it is so, and if He is using someone he can have the attitude of mystery if necessary. So they took the boy away, and the conversation was continued; it would not lose its character.

Ques. Would the Lord's word as to Ephesus in Revelation 2:5 be like Eutychus, "Remember, therefore, whence thou art fallen, and repent"?

J.T. Well; you cannot say too much as to him, but he would never forget it.

H.W. The references to him as a youth and as a boy would imply personality, like Samuel.

J.T. Yes; before he is a man.

Rem. It would involve his soul-capability, as it says in Philippians 2:2, "joined in soul".

J.T. That has its own meaning. Someone has said, 'The birds have no song, and the men have no souls in America!'

Rem. That does not apply to all!

J.T. The Lord intends us to see that the boy came to something.

Rem. As to the young people taking on the ministry, Paul could leave them with these men.

J.T. Yes, that is so, and so there is this boy, and the question is, Is he alive? And so Elijah prays that the boy's soul might return (1 Kings 17:21),

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showing what God may do for us in answer to our prayers for one or another.

Rem. Elisha also prays to Jehovah and the boy is brought to life; (2 Kings 4:33).

J.T. Yes, just so. With that young man it was a head-matter, "he went out to his father to the reapers. And he said to his father, My head, my head! And he said to the servant, Carry him to his mother", 2 Kings 4:19. And Elisha went round the house (verse 35); what kind of books, novels and the like were there to cause the death of the boy?

Rem. Elisha's staff was not enough.

J.T. No. He went over the whole thing, the mouth, the eyes, the hands, both with Elisha and Elijah; how transmitting things are! There are very few men of God; it is seldom mentioned. But can they pass on something like themselves?

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THE LAWGIVER

Genesis 49:10; Numbers 21:17, 18; 1 Corinthians 14:37

What is to be said tonight centres around the word 'lawgiver' found in the first two scriptures, and the thought is in the last scripture, though not the word. It is not the idea of a lawgiver in the sense of arbitrarily asserting the law as a principle, though it is there, but as affording divine principles according to the New Testament. The Old Testament had the thought of the law, but of very inferior character and quality indeed; all the Old Testament, the whole of it, hardly rose to the full thought of the law of God, at least it was inferior to that of the New Testament, and tended to dwarf the people of God; and so we have in Galatians the thought of the children of God, although in the mind of God they had the character of sons. It is mentioned in the Old Testament that the people were sons of God, but not in the full sense; inferiority was stamped on the Old Testament; therefore they were kept under "guardians and stewards" (Galatians 4:2) till the time of the crucifixion. It does not apply to Christ personally, for He was Himself never less than God, but He entered into the period of law and all that attached to it and dignified it according to what He was. It was the period of law, and of sight, "the period fixed by the father", Galatians 4:2, not God exactly, but a figure of speech, the father having a place in any house, and fixing the period for his children; and the period I am speaking of is the period from the fixing of the law at Sinai; and now we are in the very greatest period ever fixed by God, and it cannot be stressed too much; we are sons of God "by faith in Christ Jesus" (Galatians 3:26);

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every one of us belongs to the sons of God, as having the Holy Spirit.

What I read in the Old Testament has a certain inferiority to it, even the reference to the lawgiver in both books, as compared to the last scripture in 1 Corinthians. But here the sceptre is not to depart from Judah; he is not to give it up, and when we come to David, it is greatly increased; it reads in 2 Samuel 23:3, "the ruler among men shall be just, ruling in the fear of God; and he shall be as the light of the morning, like the rising of the sun, a morning without clouds; when from the sunshine, after rain, the green grass springeth from the earth"; so David, in his last words, tells us what a king is to be and Jacob does not tell us that, but that "The sceptre will not depart from Judah, nor the lawgiver from between his feet"; the feet were not of much importance there, but the head and the affections, so that the position of Judah is really inferior; the position of the feet must be taken into account, and we must think of the young, and the older should be more intelligent, so that the younger should keep in touch with the older. Judah had not acquired that yet, the time had to be waited for; Moses, Aaron, Joshua, David, Josiah, all coming on to superiority of intelligence, but none had reached the fulness of time; that was when Christ came, the vessel through whom we might receive sonship. It is more than intelligence, we receive it, that thought; and the same thought applies to the Holy Spirit, so it was that certain disciples at Ephesus in Acts 19, when asked, had not heard if the Holy Spirit was come; they were babes really. They had not the full light of Christianity, they were really "under guardians and stewards". You may say that applies to the Gentiles, but it applies to the Jews, too, as we had this afternoon (the difference between Acts 3 and Acts 14).

The man in Acts 3 may have been able to hobble a

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little, but you could not say he never walked. The time of walking is the time of the Spirit, so Paul says in Ephesians 2:10 that God has created us in Christ Jesus for good works that we should walk in them; not talk, but walk, in these good works "which God has before prepared" for us, and as Christians we should be walking in them. The man in Lystra in Acts 14:8 heard Paul speak, "and he said with a loud voice, Rise up straight upon thy feet: and he sprang up and walked". The other man was carried there by friendly hands, "whom they placed every day at the gate of the temple called Beautiful, to ask alms" (Acts 3:2), but it is not said that he never walked. It shows how things must be graded to be spiritual and intelligent in every part of the truth. So we have David's heart poetically, the sweet psalmist of Israel, and in Acts 1 and 2 the citations are all from the Psalms, as if David was honoured as speaking of Christ and His glory. These five books of the Psalms compare with the five books of the Pentateuch; they were clearly compiled by David. Hardly anything is said of Judah but that the lawgiver was from between his feet. We have come to the time of the feet now, of men asserting the feet, laws that tend to bondage, not Christianity. David rose above all this. David had a root in Christ, who is "the root and offspring of David", Revelation 22:16. We are not suggesting anything derogatory of Christ, for David had no place in Deity, he was always a creature. But the Lord says, "I am the root and offspring of David, the bright and morning star". And then the Spirit and the bride know what to say. It is the full spiritual thought of "the Spirit and the bride", and then it is as if the Spirit itself says, "And let him that hears say, Come". And then we have, "And let him that is athirst come; he that will let him take the water of life freely". There is liberty on God's side, and taking on ours, so Paul says, "Did

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ye receive the Holy Spirit when ye had believed?" (Acts 19:2), and I repeat that now here. Not that you received Him ten years ago, and you have never spoken or sung in the Spirit, but to be sure of it now. There were twelve of the Ephesians, and it seems to show what Paul would secure, and what a structure God would have in that city.

I mentioned David especially and we must stretch from him to Christ. He is a type of Christ, and has a great place in Revelation, a book that came in late, after most of Paul's ministry, and affords much instruction and many promises to be in our hearts. So to Philadelphia the Lord says, "I also will keep thee out of the hour of trial" (Revelation 3:10); it was not to those of pentecostal times, but to Philadelphia, the sixth of the seven assemblies; they were to be kept from the tribulation "which is about to come upon the whole habitable world, to try them that dwell upon the earth"; let us be afraid of earth -- dwelling, even in what God has given us, for we may become worldly, as it says, "Love not the world, nor the things in the world", 1 John 2:15. The one to whom John speaks may not be a minister, but it may be his wife; she may colour him and spoil him; I speak of what is possible and probable in most of us. So the word comes, "I also will keep thee out of the hour of trial"; the terrible thing that is coming; kept from this is the word. It is the Holy Spirit that keeps us from the world, in the midst of it, yet kept from it, and to know Him that is from the beginning. It says, "Love not the world", for we may turn back and love it again; but we are to go on, to hold on, to go on, and then "he that is holy, let him be sanctified still" (Revelation 22:11), and you will not be captured by the world.

Now as to Numbers 21, and the development in the truth seen in the scripture, verse 17 reads, "Then Israel sang this song, Rise up, well! sing unto it:

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well which princes digged, which the nobles of the! people hollowed out at the word of the lawgiver, with their staves". You may say to me, There is something in Genesis! There is, and poetry, too! And there is more in mind in the song of Genesis 49; but here we have a song, and the Holy Spirit typically had come. It is now the place the lawgiver has, now not between anyone's feet, but he is free to give directions; a believer who has the Spirit is free to direct someone, and the first person he should direct is himself! So in Romans 7:24 we get, "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me out of this body of death?" He is not delivered yet, but then his mind gets the thought of it, and so it reads, "I thank God, through Jesus Christ our Lord". It shows how quickly a thing can happen in a believer's soul. He thanks God, and that is where the deliverance lies. Many do not thank God, even in public places for food; of the Lord it is said that "having given thanks" He broke the bread and fishes; Matthew 15:36. How can anyone refrain from giving thanks in the light of that scripture? One feels how often it is forgotten by many who are believers; it is piety to do it! Paul here puts things in the future instead of the past, for he knows how to use the right terms: "So then" (the conclusion he arrives at) "I myself with the mind serve God's law; but with the flesh sin's law",Romans 7:5. I have read this that the dear brethren may know that one with the Spirit has power to direct and give orders. Paul learnt here to give them, and in so doing he got deliverance, and his own self ("I myself") comes into evidence in his soul, and that is what I am speaking of. Young people, as having the Spirit, can generally give orders, but to begin with one's self is the first thing, so that you have power over your own mind and you will never partake of the Lord's supper till you have power over your own mind; it is 'for the calling of

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me to mind' (1 Corinthians 11:24, note i); you begin to be a man spiritually as commanding your mind, as determined to be in control of yourself, and that is the great point in chapter 8, and there we have the true idea of the lawgiver; it is the Spirit of God really, and so in Romans 8 a great change comes over the believer when this can be said of him, far greater than Sinai. Paul speaks of himself more than any other because God ordered it. Paul would never think of doing or saying such things unless commanded or told to do so.

So in Numbers 21:17,18 it reads, "Then Israel sang this song, Rise up, well! sing unto it: well which princes digged, which the nobles of the people hollowed out at the word of the lawgiver" (the lawgiver implies the word) "with their staves". It is a development from Genesis 49; here in Numbers 21 the lawgiver is directly telling the people how to do things, to dig a hole for things to flow into; so the type comes into our minds and become antitypes in the New Testament, for instance in Romans 7 as has been said. We do not want to be in such ignorance, but to be in liberty, the liberty of the Spirit, set free "from the law of sin and of death", Romans 8:2.

Now as to the last scripture, 1 Corinthians 14:37 is equivalent to the thought of the lawgiver, and it is a question of what one thinks in his mind, whether he is a spiritual man or a prophet, let him take heed to what Paul says in all that he does for the Lord, "let him recognise the things that I write to you, that it is the Lord's commandment"; the thought of the lawgiver especially enters into the first and second epistles to Corinth; Paul is the last word in everything. Paul is in the offing in Acts 9, but not until chapter 11 do we get him serving. The voice of the Lord said to him (Acts 9:4), "Saul, Saul, why dost thou persecute me? ... I am Jesus, whom thou persecutest" He was then told to go into the

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city, to take a low place, and learn from Ananias in Damascus. We have to learn in order to be taught, and so it was with the first believers, "they persevered in the teaching and fellowship of the apostles" (Acts 2:42); that is the thought that is so needed. Paul had sat at the feet of Gamaliel, but now it is Jesus, and then the disciple Ananias, and so Paul was compelled to go into the city and learn what is needed, not in the colleges or the seminary. Then the Lord very graciously went and told Ananias what he was to say to Saul, and so when he came to Saul he heard the word, "Saul, brother"; the first word is the greatest, to learn what the brethren are! 'Plymouth brethren', men say derisively, and we must accept the reproach. We are not that at all, really; we are brethren of one another, brethren of Christ, and sons of God; we should hold to it and the dignity of it. So Paul says, "If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him recognise the things that I write to you, that it is [the] Lord's commandment". It covers the whole of the first letter, at any rate, one great commandment of the lawgiver, to walk after the Spirit and not after the flesh.

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WHAT THE SAINTS ARE IN THE SERVICE OF GOD

Exodus 25:23 - 30

It is with conscious hesitation that I want to say a word at this time, when we have the full thought of the numbers present and that the Spirit of God is with us and that we have liberty together. Allusion has been made to the idea of coming together into one place, that is where all the strength is available at one time. It is "the hill of God". In 1 Samuel 10:5 it was said to be in the hand of the Philistines, which was a reproach. That is not so tonight; there is no Philistine here; those here belong to those who have the Holy Spirit, a very different thing from the Philistines. So the Corinthian epistles help as to the hill of God; it is for those who have ability, and there are those who have ability! It is said in the epistle that "God has set certain in the assembly", 1 Corinthians 12:28. In Ephesians 4:8 and 11 it is said the gifts are persons, Christ having gone up "above all the heavens, that he might fill all things" has given them "for the perfecting of the saints; with a view to the work of the ministry, with a view to the edifying of the body of Christ; until we all arrive at the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, at the full-grown man, at the measure of the stature of the fulness of the Christ", Ephesians 4:13,14.

We therefore may well hope for something for the saints at this time, that being the purpose for which we are together. 1 Corinthians helps as to the local position, as seen in the first chapter, verse 2, "both theirs and ours". That is the general idea of the local conditions. God has His children, "See what love the Father has given to us, that we should be called the children of God" (1 John 3:1); we are all called that, but there are those who have gift, so that

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the ministry may be carried on. Levites we have called them, but we might more accurately speak of them as ministers of God, "competent, as ministers of the new covenant" (2 Corinthians 3:6), and if that is so, we have a moral right to speak, and so it is one has ventured to speak and to bring out a word or two as to Corinthians, the epistle that treats of the service of God, that is locally not generally. It is in the Scriptures (that is the ground we have for speaking) that "Every scripture is divinely inspired, and profitable for teaching, for conviction, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" (2 Timothy 3:16); and hence we have a mouth to speak. These epistles have what is needed for addressing the saints, and giving what is needed, firstly as gathered in one place, and then according to 1 Corinthians 14:29 we have the ministry, not simply in the local position, but as in a meeting such as this, where we have the privilege of two or three speakers. "And let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge", and as the Spirit has room in the servant, He will direct, and so I turned to Exodus where the thoughts come as to "with which to pour out". In Genesis we have the man and his wife as usable by God, as in chapter 2, it was man in the flesh; but more is in mind in Exodus; in chapter 25 we have the table of acacia-wood (we do not get such references in the early chapters of Genesis), because God began with measure, and if He has a table, then it is to have accurate measurements: "And thou shalt make a table of acacia-wood, two cubits the length thereof, and a cubit the breadth thereof, and a cubit and a half the height thereof. And thou shalt overlay it with pure gold, and make upon it a border of gold round about. And thou shalt make for it a margin of a handbreadth round about, and shalt make a border of gold for the margin thereof round about". It was to be covered with "pure gold", that is quality, not only measure; but the thing, or the

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article, of which the table is made, is acacia-wood, very durable and all typical, which has to be understood in the antitype, and that means durability; so that we are all called upon to stand, maybe, persecution, and if there are metals, then more durability is needed. And so it goes on, "And thou shalt make for it four rings of gold, and put the rings at the four corners that are on the four feet thereof. Close to the margin shall the rings be, as receptacles of the staves to carry the table"; that is, it is what is portable, not like the temple, so that we can carry on the service as divinely ordered; this marks all in Exodus, that all is done on the principle of the mediator. Moses is the great mediator; so we have in 1 Timothy 2:5, "the mediator of God and men one, the man Christ Jesus"; the mediator acts intelligently in what he is doing. Then we have, "And thou shalt make the staves of acacia-,wood, and overlay them with gold; and the table shall be carried upon them". That is the carrying power which is needed so that we can have the service carried on at any time. The service implies the idea of the house, "Moses indeed was faithful in all his" (that is God's) "house" (Hebrews 3:5), and in what I have read the household is in mind, the margin, the rings and the staves, so that the table can be set up at any time. "And thou shalt make the dishes thereof, and cups thereof, and goblets thereof, and bowls thereof, with which to pour out: of pure gold shalt thou make them. And thou shalt set upon the table shewbread before me continually". So that there is something there ready to be poured out to serve the dear brethren, not merely to sit here, but in relation to one another. Take the Supper; God's service is in it. It is from glory to glory, so that when we are together there is the thought of pouring out something for the dear brethren. Now we are in the middle of the week, and we are here under orders,

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and nothing is to be done irregularly; if we are at the beginning of the week, it is for prayer, but in the middle of the week it is a question of ministry, refreshing the saints. So there are the dishes, cups, goblets and bowls, to pour out, of pure gold, and what a dignified position it is, there is nothing common in it at all, as illustrated by the gold, and all the vessels being usable. So that we can serve in love and dignity and build each other up on our most holy faith. Then the last verse that I have read about the shewbread speaks of what the saints are before God. Even if we are here before one another, there is what we are before God. In the mid-week it is most important, and in pouring out for the dear brethren it is dignifying the truth of the presence of God. It is a question of what we are in the Lord's presence on the first day of the week; priesthood is there, "For the priest's lips should keep knowledge" (Malachi 2:7); and at the prayer meeting the priest continues, he approaches God; Aaron and his sons are set up as looking after the divine interests. Earlier we have youths (Exodus 24:5), but they are not official priests; for that we have to wait for Aaron; God had said of him, "I know that he can speak well", Exodus 4:14. Aaron the Levite is the great central figure of the levitical service; he is the first one to be called that. So that as set up the saints are ministered to accordingly. The shewbread, the bread of God, implies the 'bread of the presence' (see note), that is what we are in the presence of God as enabled to set out the truth in its proper terms, so that God comes in and has part with us. In chapter 40 Moses is not able to serve because of the divine presence being so great and glorious; it is what the brethren are in the divine presence. Forgive the stammering tongue, for it is a question of what God has in the tabernacle; even Aaron has to withdraw because of what the saints are in their own dignity and glory before God. May God use the word.

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THE BRIDE IN UNISON WITH THE SPIRIT

Revelation 22

J.T. We have John's word at the end (the assemblies are mentioned just before in verse 16): "Amen; come, Lord Jesus" It might be the Spirit of prophecy or John himself. Then the last verse is a sort of benediction. We have feeling in the book, expressed in different persons. "And he shewed me a river of water of life, bright as crystal, going out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the midst of its street, and of the river, on this side and on that side, [the] tree of life, producing twelve fruits, in each month yielding its fruit; and the leaves of the tree for healing of the nations. And no curse shall be any more; and the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him, and they shall see his face; and his name [is] on their foreheads. And night shall not be any more, and no need of a lamp, and light of [the] sun; for [the] Lord God shall shine upon them, and they shall reign to the ages of ages. And he said to me, These words [are] faithful and true; and [the] Lord God of the spirits of the prophets has sent his angel to shew to his bondmen the things which must soon come to pass" (verses 1 - 6).

Then in verse 8 John made a great blunder, because we are always in danger of natural feeling, when we should be under the control of the Holy Spirit. He does it twice; and we need to be on the watch all the time lest we be found doing such a thing, especially in the presence of great persons, and personality is seen in the book; chapter 1 is illustrative of what we are saying; "John to the seven assemblies which are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from him who is, and who was, and who is to come ... . To him who loves us, and has washed us from our sins in his blood".

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And then, "Behold, he comes with the clouds, and every eye shall see him" and then, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, saith the Lord God, he who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty". Then there is something that John says, and then we have verse 17, and then we have verse 20 as to the seven stars, and so forth; it is one thing after another through the book; and finally in chapter 22 we have this ejaculation "Amen", the acknowledgment of all these things.

God is seen in a peculiar attitude; it says, "Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to him" (Revelation 1:1), as if God signified the revelation He conferred on the Lord Himself. So that in the midst of these great personages, He is the greatest, the only One to be honoured. Yet John also is honoured, as saying something to the assemblies, something of distinction. One is very liable to fail in the presence of great personages and dishonour the Lord, who is the only One to be worshipped. On such occasions as we have had at Glasgow, Sydney and Auckland, one has to be sure that one is saying what is just right. One of the greatest burdens to be carried is in verses 18 and 19 of chapter 22, where nothing is to be added or taken away in those who minister. So in Revelation 1, "When I saw him I fell at his feet as dead" (verse 17); John was in a weak position there, but the Lord does not reproach him; He says, "Fear not; I am the first and the last, and the living one: and I became dead, and behold, I am living to the ages of ages, and have the keys of death and of hades". The Lord brings in the thought of death, and John "fell at his feet as dead", and the Lord speaks of His own death, and sets John up, telling him what to write and the order in which he is to do it.

Ques. Had you something as to the bride, as specially suited to be with Christ?

J.T. She is allowed to speak in the same voice

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and the same words as a divine Person; no one else is honoured in this way, for the bride is allowed to speak and to use the same words as the Spirit; a most remarkable thing, as if she is allowed the distinction of speaking with the Spirit, one word. Here we have the antitype of Genesis 1:27, the "male and female", in "I Jesus", the Man, and the woman, the bride, answering "Come"; but it is the Spirit and the bride together saying the same thing that is so wonderful. It is a present thought, "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come", as if the Spirit is concerned about it now, not leaving it till the last moment. It is "he says", then "the Spirit and the bride say", the present being characteristic of John. "The bright and morning star" is like the promise of the coming day; the sun follows the morning star. The Bible gives us intelligence as to that, as in Psalm 19, "The heavens declare the glory of God; and the expanse sheweth the work of his hands. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. There is no speech and there are no words, yet their voice is heard. Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their language to the extremity of the world. In them hath he set a tent for the sun, And he is as a bridegroom going forth from his chamber; he rejoiceth as a strong man to run the race. His going forth is from the end of the heavens, and his circuit unto the ends of it; and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof" (Psalm 19:1 - 6); it is as if she understands what He was going to do next. This is a nice thought to have in our minds all day, the assembly speaking to Him and using the same words as the Spirit. You get early suggestions in Romans 8 and Galatians 4 of this, but they are nothing like this here. It is the Spirit alone in Galatians 4:6, but in Romans 8:15 we cry by the Spirit, as if we are on the way on the individual line, and we are learning what the Spirit would do. We

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cannot do much here in the Pacific as to assembly service, and outside on the isles and on the ship they are mostly unbelievers; there is a Christian at Suva, and perhaps there is some work of God in China, Japan, India, and Russia.

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FEET WASHING

John 13:1 - 20

J.T. The interim character of John is striking, especially here in the feet-washing, that unless we have our feet washed, we have no part with Christ. Romanists make a great deal of this kind of thing, making much of the most precious things on their own line, and the question is whether we can handle them on our own line, that is the Lord's line, as being sent.

Ques. Would you distinguish between 'part with Christ' and 'part in Christ'?

J.T. The latter is more general as applying to the believer specifically, and involves what we are; the former enters into John's gospel, the new birth, and all that flows from it.

Ques. Is the Lord indicating in verse 10 "He that is washed all over" as a basic thing, and in verse 8 "Unless I wash thee, thou hast not part with me", the general position that we are brought to through grace?

J.T. The Lord is speaking in a typical form to indicate that we are Christians, and being such, need only to wash our feet to maintain us in the fellowship.

Ques. What about Judas having had his feet washed?

J.T. Another thing comes up here, and that is that Roman Catholics have a place in Christianity. Before the Reformation they represented the truth up to a certain point, and in a sense carried the truth to others, in such a way as no Protestant may have done, though there are some in the south of France that would be such. But in general the Roman Catholic system represented Christianity, that one converted and baptised into it would come into full

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Christianity, that is before the Reformation. The Lord says in verse 20, "He who receives whomsoever I shall send receives me", and the authority goes with them, brought down through the ages, and the truth with that, so that the system has been used by God, and what is in mind here is the importance of being sent.

Rem. Augustine was sent by Pope Gregory and the gospel and Christianity got deep rooted from that time.

J.T. The authority of that hymn of ours by Bernard of Clairvaux (Hymn 279), shows that the real thing was being carried down.

Rem. John's special line begins with feet-washing, elevating us above the general level of evangelical work.

J.T. So Christians are viewed in this chapter; Peter, as linked on in a public way with Christianity, blunders, but he is genuine, and the chapter points to what belongs to us, our personalities, what God has graciously restored in the revival, and personality going with it, and that feet-washing goes with it, not the "washing all over". It represents, in terms, real Christians; there is only the need to wash the feet; but if steeped in Romanism, they would need more than this, and probably Judas in verses 18 and 19 indicates the terribleness in view of the history, not only of Judas, but of Rome.

Rem. The Lord says they were not all clean, so that Judas was unclean, and not washed all over.

J.T. His state could not be remedied by washing at all; he was beyond the pale of the truth; so he is alluded to in verse 21 again that the truth should be brought out, and John had the truth about it. There is so much here to suggest what persons are as brought out in the recovery.

Ques. So does the personal service of the Lord enter into this special side? There is not only His

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work for us, but that which is being done now, and He would bring us into it, "for I have given you an example that, as I have done to you, ye should do also".

J.T. Yes, and that it is not a question of 'mass' or 'bulk' Christianity by persons involved. It is what we are in relation to Christ, and the personnel of the saints; we are brought into this now. So the question arises as to the value of persons, and of the people on this ship now. It seems that some, for instance, the bishop and his wife, are Christians; they referred to the angels; yet they are mixed up in things which we can have no part in. The Lord regulates the persons; we are not viewed here as having any ecclesiastical status, but it is a question of our persons. This is not the Lord's supper here; it is a family affair, a supper, and Judaism shares in it. For instance, there is John's attitude in verse 25, so he can ask, "Lord, who is it?"; but Luke records "the hand of him that delivers me up [is] with me on the table", Luke 22:21. We have to distinguish between what John does in the family sense, and what the synoptic gospels have in the official sense.

Rem. This supper is not called the feast of the passover.

J.T. The point is, it is "during supper" or as the note says, '(supper being finished)'; it is a family affair.

Rem. It is to be known and understood amongst us more.

J.T. There is just the question of whether we read Scripture accurately enough, and that is why the Lord is insisting upon the brethren looking into things, and comparing things.

Rem. The family setting where the truth can be opened out is very valuable.

J.T. John opens things up because he is a specialist;

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he is not concerned with the official side, but with any part of the truth that may help at any time.

Rem. The official side soon broke down but the family side goes on.

J.T. So we have in chapter 21 the Lord saying, "Come and dine" (verse 12).

Rem. He says "Come and see" in chapter 1:39 in the beginning, so that the end is as great as the beginning.

J.T. John says, "not even the world itself would contain the books written" (John 21:25); there is so much in John's side of things, it is infinitude; it is not so in Matthew. The night into which Judas went out is terrible to think of, whatever part he had in the Supper, it was night he went into; out from the divine realm.

Ques. Does Judas represent what the official system has become, and what the official system leads to?

J.T. Yes, and there is all the matter as to washing of feet, and how important it is here in this passage; how in spite of the official side breaking down, we can be clean.

Rem. I am not clear whether feet-washing is connected with the Lord's own personal service, and holding Him as Head, and giving Him that place, or whether it is carried out by the saints.

J.T. The latter is the point here; how much we have in England, Scotland, Ireland, Australasia and so on, and whether it may not become too large, if this personal matter is not insisted on. We have these special meetings in mind, but they are not this feet-washing, which is a personal matter; and so those who are not right are discovered and exposed, and that has happened in Australia; the whole system has been exposed. The Lord has brought it to light, and we must retain our identification with the exposure, as we had it on the last night in Brisbane.

Rem. Peter was exposed and adjusted.

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J.T. Yes, and Judas was irremediable; gone into the darkness. In Matthew it is very searching as to where we are, and if the testimony is to be maintained to the end according to Matthew 28, feet-washing must be there. God comes in at times and exposes persons or things, as He has done and may yet do. The thing is to wash one another's feet. The Reformation was a great movement; Wesley's was the same; and at Plymouth, too. It is being maintained; Open-Brethrenism is brought into it now, but the right position is being maintained on the principle of feet-washing, that is by personal touches.

Rem. At the beginning of the movement of the recovery the brethren were much more together.

J.T. In Lady Powerscourt's time how many personal touches there were.

Rem. The movement grew, and the 'open' principle grew up beside it, like the wheat and the darnel in Matthew 13, and hence the rupture.

J.T. The germ of the thing is maintained in freshness by personal touches; so "leaning on the breast of Jesus" is John's place; it is these personal touches.

Ques Would the bosom represent the affections and the breast the strength?

J.T. The bosom would be receptiveness and the breast would be solidity and dependability. We may have some impressions of these things.

Ques. Would "faith in the Lord Jesus", Christ dwelling in the heart through faith enter into this (Ephesians 1:15; chapter 3:17)?

J.T. So verse 19 is "when it happens, ye may believe that I am he", and in chapter 14:1,faith runs like a vein through to the end; and in Ephesians and Colossians it is their faith in the Lord Jesus. The order of faith that was in the apostles at beginning runs through, and John's and Peter's ministry fosters that.

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THE PERSON OF THE FATHER

John 13:1 - 5,31,32

Rem. What has been before us has helped us as to the personal way the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit have been presented. We have looked at the Person of the Son, and intend now to look at the Person of the Father in this chapter, also God; the need being that we should understand the personal way divine Persons come before us, so that our approach to Them should be more intelligent, understanding what is in the Persons themselves.

J.T. At once we see the Person of the Lord Jesus as distinct from the other two Persons, so that we can see how each Person is to be distinguished, not only in the Scriptures as we read them, but also in the ministry. John 14:15 says, "If ye love me, keep my commandments" and then it says, "And I will beg the Father, and he will give you another Comforter, that he may be with you for ever, the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see him nor know him; but ye know him, for he abides with you, and shall be in you", (John 14:16,17); so that the Lord Himself is calling attention to Himself and how He will beg the Father for the other Comforter, the Spirit. So you have in mind we would look at the Lord Jesus Himself, and also the Father, and the Spirit, so that each of the three are distinct.

Ques. Do you think the term 'the Father' calls attention to the Person, not relatively, but in His own blessedness?

J.T. Yes; the Father is the thought of grace; but then there is also the wonderful place the disciples had, "having loved his own who were in the world", He loved them "to the end". So that

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one is struck with the place the saints have as to Himself.

Ques. What would be involved in the departing out of this world to the Father, and lower down, "that he came out from God and was going to God"?

J.T. It suggests the liberty He took; He could act as He pleased; it is what He was pleased to do. It was not the thought that He was murdered, and the like. The Father is brought into it, so it says, "Now before the feast of the passover, Jesus, knowing that his hour had come that he should depart out of this world to the Father, having loved his own who were in the world, loved them to the end"; there is latitude and liberty seen in the Lord. "And during supper, the devil having already put it into the heart of Judas [son] of Simon, Iscariote, that he should deliver him up, [Jesus], knowing that the Father had given him all things into his hands, and that he came out from God and was going to God"; it is not that He was going to be crucified, but that He "was going to God", and so He "lays aside his garments".

Rem. May we consider whether the thought of the Father brings in the personal side and whether the Lord and the saints stand in relation to the Father; but also whether the thought of going to God is further; the thought of Deity? He came from Deity in His own service and returns to it, bringing out the glory and dignity of His Person.

J.T. We must distinguish the Persons who are in the Deity, and what we are to Them; "loved them to the end".

Rem. Personal relations, as known in the world, are not what we wait for. It enters into the service of God; the Persons are known to us in Their own place.

J.T. It is seen more in John than anywhere, that is, each Person functioning in His own place.

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A.H. Is this action on the part of the Lord to endear Himself to us? I am referring to verses 4 and 5.

J.T. Yes, it shows what the saints are to Them.

Rem. That love brings us into the economy.

J.T. Yes. "Jesus, knowing"; there is what He knew in this relation, "that he should depart out of this world to the Father"; all was in Their own hands in the infinite liberty that belongs to Them. The saints are peculiarly brought into it.

J.C-S. Is it the writer or the Spirit making this comment?

J.T. It is the Spirit. He indites everything, that is subjectively. He is the prime mover in everything.

J.C-S. It is a beautiful touch. He takes on any strain that is put upon Him.

J.T. Very good. He is God, and therefore there is no limit to His power, but He acts subjectively in a lowly way to the other divine Persons.

A.H. We have the Lord as a divine Person coming out from God, and going to God, over against the devil, as mentioned in verse 2.

J.T. The battle is on, and it is a tremendous conflict; he is the devil, and the Lord says, "for the ruler of the world comes, and in me he has nothing", John 14:30. We are in the arena of the conflict, and divine Persons are seen in Their own sphere and Their own love, and we come into it. So it says, "And during supper, the devil having already put it into the heart of Judas [son] of Simon, Iscariote, that he should deliver him up, [Jesus], knowing that the Father had given him all things into his hands, and that he came out from God and was going to God, rises from supper"; it is in infinite dignity, and what He does relates to the saints and washing their feet. He does more later; He takes off His garments, but puts them on again.

J.C-S. All this relates to the saints in their companies,

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as coming, between these two points "he came out from God and was going to God", into the arena of the conflict, and to serve the saints; but the Lord proceeds on His own line to wash their feet.

Rem. He is solely occupied with the saints.

J.T. It is very beautiful, and should appeal to each of us, as to how we are in the minds of divine Persons, and that we are coming on to the terrible conflict; but "[there is] he who restrains now until he be gone" (2 Thessalonians 2:7); the end is in mind. Here we have Judas; not only the devil, but Judas comes into the enemy's circle.

Eu.R. "He went out immediately; and it was night", John 13:30.

J.T. The Lord had said to him, "What thou doest, do quickly", John 13:27 He could use him, too.

Rem. It seems as though the Lord's service has in view the disclosures the Lord and the Spirit have to make, to clear their hearts and minds.

J.T. Quite so. The enemy can only do so much; it is till the falling away, or "the apostasy" (2 Thessalonians 2:3); and here we see Them acting for the saints in all They do. The "falling away" is a terrible thing; there is still time, but are the saints remembering that it will happen?

Rem. The present service of the Holy Spirit is especially against that.

J.T. And Jesus, He is so near; "The Lord is near", Paul says (Philippians 4:5), but the Spirit is nearer, "for he abides with you, and shall be in you" (John 14-17); He has a peculiar charge to look after the saints.

J.O.S. He reassures the saints.

J.T. "The Father himself has affection for you" (John 16:27), so we are taken care of from all angles. Are we getting as much from this passage as you expect?

Rem. We only want help!

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J.T. John's gospel is more easy to divide up than any other.

Ques. Are we to see things in their right proportions, so the Lord says, "The bondman is not greater than his Lord, nor the sent greater than he who has sent him", John 13:16.

J.T. So "greater is he that [is] in you than he that [is] in the world" (1 John 4:4); it is a question of who is in us.

Rem. One who is not less than God.

J.T. Quite so. It should be a great encouragement because of trade unions, because they are saying so much. The Lord can, and will deal, and is dealing with them in all parts of the world.

J.C-S. There is no reason why we should succumb to the conditions here.

J.T. There is certainly no reason, "because greater is he that [is] in you than he that [is] in the world"; we have no need to fear, even if we have to die, well, we shall be raised, and the raising is very near.

Ques. The Lord is about to depart out of the world to the Father, but He is making full provision for the saints. Does this include the Spirit?

J.T. Yes. The Lord in chapter 14:16 says He will beg the Father for the other Comforter, "that he may be with you for ever", and He says, "but ye know him, for he abides with you, and shall be in you", John 14:17.

Ques. Why does this ministry in chapter 13 precede the coming of the Spirit? How does it proceed?

J.T. We go out washed, a great moral advantage.

Rem. In the world, you mean.

J.T. Yes; let anyone look at us; it is not only feet that are clean, but clean every whit; anyone can see it.

Rem. A heavenly people.

J.T. Yes, we are indigenous to heaven; it is a

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wonderful thing, not that I go up to come out, but I belong there. The assembly comes down "having the glory of God", Revelation 21:10.

Eu.R. "I also send you" (John 20:21) bears that out.

J.T. Yes; it is very wonderful.

Ques. "Part with me", is that our place in the testimony?

J.T. That is the moral force of it; we are not ordinary people; we belong to heaven. If we are not washed, we have no part, that is, in the testimony with Him.

J.C-S. And no power!

J.T. Just so. Anyone can look at us. We are shut up in relation to Him.

A.H. "Ye also ought to wash one another's feet"; how does it work out?

J.T. A brother or a sister with a stain upon them is of no use in the testimony; the ruler of the world had nothing in Him, He says; John 14:30.

A.H. He was invulnerable.

J.T. Judas had no power against Him; he was not clean.

R.G.B. Is this to work out in God being glorified now in the saints?

J.T. You mean as to the Son of man being glorified, "and God is glorified in him"? Say more about it.

R.G.B. I am thinking of the wonderful suggestion of God being glorified in the Son of man; the result being that God was glorified, and that God would "glorify him in himself", that is in God, which is to be continued in the saints, and has in view the coming out in the heavenly city.

J.T. Yes; so it was a square, but solid; that is a cube, in Revelation 21. It is what God finds in the city.

J.O.S. The promise to the overcomer in Philadelphia

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is that the Lord will write on him "the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem", Revelation 3:12.

J.T. Yes; the assembly is honoured in that way.

E.S.H. The overcomer is loved by the Lord in that way, and he ends in the city.

J.T. Yes; the city is with God and comes down from God; but it is what is in it, how God can use it. We can look at this in a large or a small way in the assembly; everything is taken care of in the assembly in the place He has assigned to her.

R.G.B. Do we get the dignity and place of affection the Lord had in His mind for the saints as dignified persons?

J.T. Yes; we must make much of them; it is what they are, as seen in John's first epistle, and especially as to the apostles; it is carried on in the assembly, in view of the end. It is seen in the last chapter of Revelation, where verse 14 reads, "Blessed are they that wash their robes, that they may have right to the tree of life, and that they should go in by the gates into the city", Then, "I Jesus (note the emphatic"I") have sent mine angel to testify these things to you in the assemblies", Revelation 22:16. And then, "the Spirit and the bride say, Come". There is something there that the Lord has, as available, "the bride". "To you in the assemblies" shows the place they have, and how He can use them.

Rem. The word is plural, "assemblies"; it would be the local companies.

J.T. That is right. He works out His thoughts in the local companies; so Revelation 3 shows it on moral grounds, in Philadelphia. There is nothing said against her.

Rem. He presents Himself in a very personal way there, "the name of my God" and "my God, and my new name", etc.

J.T. Yes.

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Ques. What does "the angel of the assembly" suggest?

J.T. It is representation. It is to the angel, but to the whole number of the assembly in the proper sense.

J.O.S. The bride is clothed with the glory of the whole.

J.T. Yes; Philadelphia represents the whole assembly; I think that is the thought.

Rem. Verses 31 and 32 of our chapter present the end as to what is made known as to persons; God is glorified and the Son of man is glorified in Himself, and the whole matter finds its end in the assembly.

J.T. I think so; the King, in Matthew 22, makes a supper for His Son; and then we have also the passage in Matthew 16, where Peter says who He is, and He says "Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona, for flesh and blood has not revealed [it] to thee, but my Father who is in the heavens. And I also, I say", (Matthew 16:17), as if to enlarge on the dignity of the assembly; so He refers to the keys of the kingdom, but it is the assembly, "on this rock I will build my assembly, and hades' gates shall not prevail against it", Matthew 16:18. What dignity He has in the assembly.

Rem. So He has the assembly in an operational way.

J.T. That is a good word. The assembly is fully qualified to do that; she can do anything, and we need to lay hold of the fact.

A.H. And of John 20 as well.

J.T. Certainly; it includes it all.

Eu.R. "Thou art Peter" is as a subject of His Father's handiwork.

J.T. Look at John 1:14, "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we have contemplated his glory, a glory as of an only-begotten with a father), full of grace and truth; (John bears witness

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of him, and he has cried, saying, This was he of whom I said, He that comes after me is preferred before me, for he was before me)"; John is to finish, and John the evangelist says then, in verse 16, "for of his fulness we all have received, and grace upon grace. For the law was given by Moses: grace and truth subsists through Jesus Christ". See what is going on! See what He is doing Himself and how He speaks of Himself! So we need to be larger in our thoughts as to the assembly and what He has in her and is glorified in her.

R.G.B. He is glorified as Man on high, and also in the assembly.

J.T. Yes; and the assembly as come out from God, "the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in [the] Spirit, [and set me] on a great and high mountain, and shewed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of the heaven from God, having the glory of God", Revelation 21:10. It is wonderful to ponder on, what the assembly is operationally.

Ques. "Having the glory of God", has it any reference to the Spirit's service?

J.T. The Spirit would say (speaking in a holy way, for They speak with Themselves; anyone can see that) as speaking of the assembly, 'She has His glory'.

Ques. What about those who go out from us? What God and Christ have in the assembly; how serious it is to go out from the saints.

J.T. Yes. It says, "They went out from among us, but they were not of us" (1 John 2:19); a solemn and terrible thought.

J.O.S. Is there a link in John 10:14 with the glory of the saints, "I know those that are mine, and am known of those that are mine, as the Father knows me and I know the Father"? It is a wonderful experience of the saints.

J.T. The saints forming the assembly, ever a

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creature, never, divine, but so wonderful; she comes down "out of the heaven from God, having the glory of God".

Rem. He came out alone, but went back with many brethren.

J.T. How divine Persons converse among Themselves, yet we are brought into it as having the Spirit.

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THE DISPENSATION OF THE ASSEMBLY

1 Timothy 1:4; Revelation 20:1 - 6

J.T. I have in mind that Scripture yields much on the lines of the dispensation; the word in 1 Timothy 1:4 is not 'godly edifying' as in the Authorised Version, but "God's dispensation", or 'the administration of God' (see note); it is in view of certain results. It is our dispensation, that is the dispensation of the assembly. In Revelation the passage refers to prophetic matters, and deals with certain years; so a thousand years is mentioned several times. It is what God has in mind for the earth. 1 Timothy 1:4 refers to heaven; we belong there, we are indigenous to it, but Revelation has to do with God's dealings with the earth; they are also dealt with much in the Old Testament. I want to make the thought of years concrete. There is such a thing as dispensational truth; it is so that we can find out to which dispensation we belong, and how to act in it.

Rem. So verse 5 has in mind the truth that would liberate all that.

J.T. Very good, and keeps before our minds the thought of the dispensation. The millennium is really a dispensation of sight. So John's believers have not seen; John 20:29. It must be in love as well as faith. In the millennium it will be a period of years, but we belong to the period of faith. In the thousand years God is working out His plans. Prophecy was gone in for in the past as to what has taken place, as for instance in the Collected Writings, but we must see the spiritual side, for this is a time of faith.

E.S.H. Is not the word 'economy' a good one?

J.T. The Lord Jesus is the Administrator. Christ in heaven is the High Priest, and the Holy Spirit is

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on earth as the Paraclete. It is not so in the millennium; now it is the period of the gospel.

A.J.G. In this dispensation all the truth comes out.

J.T. Yes, and we have the indwelling Spirit, and can work things out and compare spiritual things with spiritual.

Rem. The millennium can be calculated in years, but in this dispensation the Person of the Spirit is required.

J.T. Yes; He is here indefinitely.

Ques. Why is it "God's dispensation"?

J.T. It is a question of what He has in His mind. There are levels, in Timothy we have high levels; in Revelation, low levels.

Rem. Eternal things are in mind in this dispensation.

J.T. Yes; and a thousand years is fixed.

Rem. But those who have their part in God's dispensation are formed by what is eternal.

J.T. Yes, indeed.

A.J.G. Is 'faith' stressed?

J.T. Yes.

Rem. "In faith"; those are the actual words.

Rem. The Lord Jesus enters into this as not knowing the day nor the hour in Mark 13:32.

J.T. It is very wonderful that the Lord should take the place of not knowing certain things. It is referred to in Revelation 1, where John the evangelist is the vessel taken up, and he is the one the Lord loved peculiarly and confided in. The assembly understands so fully and perfectly. God is working out something; He is not saying much about it. Ours is a perfect dispensation; the millennium is not so.

P.H.H. Paul tells Timothy to remain at Ephesus (verse 3).

J.T. Ephesus is mentioned first in Revelation as to local settings.

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P.H.H. The high level in Ephesians is to help us to work out the high levels of the truth.

J.T. Acts 20 is the working out of the local things, as to filling up what is behind.

Rem. Timothy is entrusted with the greatest light.

J.T. There is so much to be engaged with that we can well afford to leave out other things. The question is what will become of the millennial saints? But God is waiting. Paul says, "But this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God's kingdom" (1 Corinthians 15:50), so we are not left in the dark; the assembly understands everything.

J.S.E. So Paul says here, "to Timotheus, my true child in faith" (verse 2).

J.T. It is in a moral and a spiritual sense.

Rem. So that it would have a bearing on ourselves.

Eu.R. God's house is linked up with "God's dispensation" and God's economy.

J.T. It is what the assembly is, "hades' gates shall not prevail against it" (Matthew 16:18); it is what the assembly is.

Rem. As to "the assembly of the living God" in chapter 3:15, all works out now in the assembly, "justified in the Spirit" (verse 16); so it is a question of power and working things out.

Ques. For this working out in power do we need the service of prayer referred to in chapter 2:1?

J.T. Prayer is a great feature of working things out in the assembly. Read Acts 1 and see how it is worked out there, and then the Spirit having come, in Acts 2:17 we get, "And it shall be in the last days, saith God, [that] I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh"; that comes from the Old Testament, but what Joel prophesied has some bearing on our dispensation, and we have to work it out as we have opportunity. It is more what has its beginning in the millennium; the truth is interlocked.

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Rem. So it is a partial fulfilment.

J.T. That is a good word. And then how much comes from Isaiah, too.

Ques. Why do we get "of my Spirit" in Acts 2? Does it refer to the Spirit as we know Him today?

J.T. Yes.

P.H.H. The Lord calls Him "the Spirit of truth"in John 14,15 and 16.

J.T. It all conforms with what the Lord says, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life", John 14:6.

P.H.H. He helps us to find our way.

J.T. Things are said nowadays that are not true and not literal. Things are brought out to discredit the truth. "The scripture cannot be broken" (John 10:35), and all Scripture is divinely inspired. You must have literality in some sense, for "every scripture is divinely inspired", 2 Timothy 3:16.

Eu.R. The Spirit of God will not give anything that is not in the ambit of Scripture.

J.T. 'Ambit' is a good word, but the logos is the word, "the pure mental milk of the word",1 Peter 2:2.

Rem. There was the power of the Scripture itself in the interpretation by the Lord to the two going to Emmaus; Luke 24:27.

J.T. And see the language the Lord uses, "O senseless and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken!" Luke 24:25.

Ques. Is not the scripture in Numbers 21:17 one that has been much used of late among us?

J.T. It is one scripture that is invulnerable, for it says, "Sing unto it", addressing the Spirit. I am afraid of people who make little of one scripture.

P.H.H. That would be especially as to the types.

J.T. They have their own value.

J.S.E. "Everyone that is of the truth hears my voice", John 18:37.

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J.T. And Pilate dares to say, "What is truth?" and yet the Lord was that before him.

Rem. We have the Spirit and His help in understanding the parabolic scriptures.

J.T. We should learn the meaning of the types and parabolic words. They are full of truth. In 1838 J.N.D. spoke of the Spirit carrying on a conversation with Rebecca.

Rem. John speaks in his second and third epistles of "walking in truth" and "walking in the truth".

Rem. As to the types, Paul says, "Now all these things happened to them [as] types, and have been written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come", 1 Corinthians 10:11.

J.T. "All these things".

Ques. Further as to the types, the Spirit is referred to as the "servant" and "the man"; would you use more New Testament language?

J.T. Yes.

Ques. In the same way Luke 22:11 mentions "the master of the house". Would you use that title in speaking of Him?

J.T. No, not unless in a reverent way, but it is the truth.

A.J.G. It is how we say things.

Rem. There is the liberty of love in addressing the Spirit; it is not to be a head-matter.

J.T. Rebecca is spoken of as carrying on a conversation with the Spirit.

Rem. In Genesis 43:19 Joseph's brethren speak "to the man that was over Joseph's house, and they spoke to him at the door of the house".

J.T. A beautiful suggestion.

Rem. And there is in John 10:3, "To him the porter opens".

J.T. Yes; we had it in Rochester.

Eu.R. We are to be free to use New Testament

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names of the Spirit, in conjunction with Old Testament ones.

J.T. You mean in addressing Him?

Eu.R. It is a question of our liberty.

J.T. Yes. We are set in the realm of love.

Rem. "Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty", 2 Corinthians 3:17.

P.H.H. In Colossians 1:8 we have "your love in the Spirit" and in Romans 15:30 "by the love of the Spirit".

J.T. They are beautiful words.

E.S.H. This would have in mind 'body' conditions as in 1 Corinthians 12.

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SPIRITUAL ELEVATION

Acts 19:1 - 7; Luke 1:39 - 45; John 20:15 - 23

J.T. It will be observed by the brethren that these scriptures are related to each other. The highest thought is in John 20, Mary taking the Lord's message. Ascension is in mind, firstly in relation to Acts 19, it is geographical, "the upper districts"; and the same thought of spiritual elevation is in mind in Luke 1, "the hill country". In John 20 it is the wholly spiritual thought. Mary calls Him "Rabboni, which means Teacher"; the teaching was that He was ascending to His Father and their Father, and to His God and their God. Then "He breathed into them, and says to them, Receive [the] Holy Spirit: whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted to them; whose soever [sins] ye retain, they are retained"; but ascension is in mind.

Rem. To arrive at Ephesus we must travel by the upper or higher levels.

J.T. Yes; Apollos was holding the ground of the local assembly in Corinth, involving the principles of God worked out in local assemblies, and then generally.

Rem. The culmination of assembly history is ascension to heaven.

J.T. Just so.

J.C-S. Corinthians is before Ephesians, so we pass from the local to the general.

J.T. That is it. What is local is generally on the level. Ephesians is the ascending thought.

Ques. Is there a link between "the upper districts" and "the things which are above", Colossians 3:1?

J.T. Just so. We are beginning on the great level, and in Colossians we begin to ascend, and our minds come into it.

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Rem. Does this raise moral challenges with us?

J.T. Yes.

Rem. The Supper is anchored to the local position; we start there. That precludes taking the Lord's supper on board a ship.

J.T. Just so; we must have the local assembly "which is in Corinth", 1 Corinthians 1:2.

Ques. Is it connected with the rights of the Lord?

J.T. Yes; the order of the assembly is worked out from the local assembly.

Rem. Thinking of John 20, ministry is a great help; so the Lord sent word, "Mary of Magdala comes bringing word to the disciples", John 20:18.

J.T. Just so, providing you make room for the fact that the Lord's supper is not in John's gospel, but John's ministry and the truth we get there is already "upper".

Ques. Is it because the Spirit's service is essential that Paul raises the question at once, "Did ye receive [the] Holy Spirit when ye had believed"?

J.T. Yes. Apollos before that was at Corinth, and that represents the local assembly; Ephesus represents the assembly on the ascending side.

Ques. Why was Apollos at Corinth?

J.T. He was just the kind of man that fits into chapter 18. He could be relied upon, as Paul says of Timothy, "For this reason I have sent to you Timotheus" (1 Corinthians 4:17); so Apollos was also a trustworthy man; a very notable feature.

Rem. He was "mighty in the scriptures".

J.T. Just so. We must have reference to the scripture, "what does the scripture say?" Paul says; Romans 4:3.

Ques. Are "the upper districts" connected with the liberty of the saints?

J.T. Yes.

Rem. We are to be like the Bereans, and search the Scriptures; Acts 17:11.

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J.T. Yes, and do it often.

Ques. What about the Holy Spirit coming upon the twelve men?

J.T. The incident is of some importance; it is not the twelve apostles, but it says, "And all the men were about twelve". You need the Spirit to work out the truth of the assembly.

Ques. Would perseverance "in the teaching and fellowship of the apostles" (Acts 2:42) be necessary?

J.T. Perseverance in the apostles' teaching would involve the Holy Spirit, which had come on the Lord as a dove, but on the apostles as tongues of fire; it was a sign of the drastic dealing with sin.

Ques. Would the tongues of fire imply testimony?

J.T. Yes, and fire; it is drastic dealing, but like the tongue in James 3:5, "See how little a fire, how large a wood it kindles!" It needs watching. The local principle did not begin properly till Paul came on the scene. The tongues would mean speaking in the power of the Spirit.

Rem. Faith is necessary, "Did ye receive [the] Holy Spirit when ye had believed?" Acts 19:2.

J.T. Quite so. The Spirit comes on the principle of faith.

Rem. It says, "Paul having laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them", Acts 19:6.

J.T. He was in the Lord's mind, and the formation of the assembly was in his hands; it was not at the beginning when the Spirit was poured out.

Rem. Would it mean Paul's impress being on these men?

J.T. It was not Peter's, but Paul's; though it is said, "first, Simon, who was called Peter" (Matthew 10:2), Paul acquired the first place.

Rem. His place was most important.

J.T. He received the mystery of the assembly; he was the minister of it. He was the architect of the assembly, 1 Corinthians 3:10.

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Rem. As "disciples" they would be ready to take on the truth.

J.T. It means they learn in subjection.

Rem. So disciples are linked with Ephesus, but not with Corinth.

J.T. The thing was there though they had not yet the Spirit. Faith must be there before the ministry of the assembly. The new birth comes in here, "Except anyone be born anew he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3), and then the Spirit is given to the believer.

Ques. How does the thought of the "upper districts" apply?

J.T. It is all working in view of Ephesians. In Luke we have the upper districts in the "hill-country" and John 20 lays the basis for all persons who form it. Mary of Magdala says, "My teacher"; it is so necessary. Paul was spoken to from heaven, which shows that it was a heavenly matter.

Rem. Mary travelled at a great rate.

J.T. We have to learn that in a city; the assembly is generally in a city.

Rem. Mary went to the "hill-country" on her own initiative.

J.T. Yes. John 20 is beyond the Supper. It belongs to Corinthians; that is where you get it.

Rem. Mary made way for the Lord to come.

J.T. For us it is a question of the Lord's birth, and that the Supper deals with Him as incarnate. Luke deals with what was at the beginning, with the incarnation, and makes way for the Lord's supper in chapter 22.

Ques. Why is John's baptism referred to in Acts 19?

J.T. More was needed. It was a question of Paul, and his word.

Rem. So that he builds on the baptism of John.

J.T. Of course he does; it was his ministry.

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Ques. Do we learn in Mary in Luke 1 the need of movement spiritually?

J.T. Yes, and from Elizabeth, too. Mary went to the hill-country, and Elizabeth had spoken in the power of the Spirit; so she went to the hill-country and became spiritually elevated. Sisters are to learn to dwell in the hill-country.

Rem. In verse 65 we get "the whole hill-country" which would be a collective thought.

J.T. It was an elevated position. But we need instruction from Mary and Elizabeth. John is said to be "called [the] prophet of [the] Highest; for thou shalt go before the face of [the] Lord to make ready his ways" (Luke 1:76), so he was to be the forerunner of Christ, and he was brought into the deserts, for a minister has to learn to be there, to get no remuneration for his work, and to live on small provision.

Ques. Is Paul in 1 Corinthians 4:9 - 13 on this line?

J.T. John had it, and Paul is equal to him.

Ques. Does our position as made to "sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus", (Ephesians 2:6) agree with what was said as to the hill-country?

J.T. We are sitting, restful, in the heavenlies.

Ques. She "went into the hill country with haste"; is it the agility of love?

J.T. She did not take much time talking with her neighbours!

Rem. There are several references to the "Highest" in this chapter.

J.T. It is said of John the baptist in verse 76, and the angel said it to Mary. The Lord's sonship was brought out in the incarnation; He was not the 'Eternal Son'.

Rem. In Psalm 2:7 it refers to time, not eternity: "Thou art my Son; I this day have begotten thee".

Rem. In 1929 it was the Lord's Person, and now it is the Holy Spirit.

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J.T. Now we have an additional thought, you mean?

Ques. What are we to learn from Elizabeth being "filled with the Holy Spirit"?

J.T. A remarkable thing because the public giving of the Spirit was at Pentecost, though David said, "take not the spirit of thy holiness from me" (Psalm 51:11); and "the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters" in Genesis 1:2. The Lord Jesus had the Spirit first; He was anointed "with the Holy Spirit and with power ... because God was with him" (Acts 10:38), and then after His ascension, the Holy Spirit came down.

Ques. Do these thoughts of spiritual elevation involve a gradual going up that is not automatic?

J.T. Yes. These persons imply the vessels that form the assembly, though John never speaks of the assembly.

Rem. It is the persons in John 20.

J.T. They are just "disciples".

Ques. Is it a household setting? And is that important because of spiritual households and the kind of things found there?

J.T. Yes.

Ques. May we have a word on John 20?

J.T. It has been much used as to the privileges we have. After Mary had delivered her message "Jesus came and stood in the midst". In Luke 24 He came to the disciples in the sense of the local assembly. John does not touch that; he has in mind the general assembly.

Rem. It was "he himself stood in their midst" in Luke 24. Is that the wilderness?

J.T. That is it. Here it is the land.

Rem. Jesus stood in their midst in Luke, here He came and stood. Is it a movement of affection? Mary "comes bringing word", but that is a moral way.

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J.T. Just so.

Ques. What is the thought in His saying "peace"?

J.T. Very good, for peace is a moral idea. He says it again in verse 26. The position is to be consolidated.

Ques. Why is so much made of the Father?

J.T. The whole idea of God is there, but "The Father" is a somewhat more limited thought; God is the complete idea of the Deity.

Rem. God is the supreme Object of worship.

J.T. Yes. John worshipped the angel, but the idea is to worship God.

Ques. Is the thought of God seen in "the name" in Matthew 28?

J.T. Yes, "the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit"; only one name; it is the full thought of God.

Rem. In 1 Timothy 2:5 we have the expression, "For God is one".

J.T. That definitely helps. The order in John 20:17 is that; the Father and God, and it is the full thought of God, and links with Matthew 28, the one thought there in "the name".

Ques. When we worship God, how should we address Him?

J.T. In 1 Corinthians 8:6 we have "to us there is one God, the Father", and then the Son, but not the Holy Spirit; whereas the total idea of God is in Ephesians 3, "to him be glory in the assembly".

Rem. It includes the headship of God.

J.T. From David you mean in 1 Chronicles 29:11?

Rem. "My God" in John 20:17 is the Trinity, the Godhead.

J.T. Yes.

Rem. "God ... all in all", 1 Corinthians 15:28.

J.T. It is the Deity, the full thought.

Ques. Does the thought of "the upper districts" link with the thought of the Deity?

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J.T. Yes. The first word for God implies supremacy.

Rem. "My Father, and your Father" is to set us free in the liberty of love.

J.T. Yes, John presents the family, but God spoken of by Himself is the full thought of Deity.

Ques. As to the supreme Person in the Godhead?

J.T. The Father is that.

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CHRIST AND THE ASSEMBLY

Isaiah 22:20 - 24; Revelation 3:7; Revelation 22:16,17

J.T. The links in these verses will be apparent to us. The thought is to call attention to the Old Testament and the New to show how linked together they are, and how Christ is the theme throughout, as He Himself said, "Ye search the scriptures, for ye think that in them ye have life eternal, and they it is which bear witness concerning me" (John 5:39); and in Luke 24:44, "that all that is written concerning me in the law of Moses and prophets and psalms must be fulfilled". So that in view of what came before us this morning at the breaking of bread, it would be good to enlarge on it and see how the Scriptures are bound together, and how the assembly is the end in view and how she is bound up with Christ in Revelation 22:16, and then the Spirit and the bride immediately come in. But the immediate thought is the Spirit and the bride, and Christ and the assembly, and how this thought runs through Scripture. We have it first in Genesis 2:18 where Jehovah Elohim says, "I will make him a helpmate, his like"; and then Adam is put to sleep, and Jehovah Elohim built the woman, and Adam says, "This time", referring to the time in which he had named the lower animals, but this time it is the assembly really. There is no link with the lower creatures, and the bride of Christ must be out of Him, taken out of Man, and built by God Himself. The assembly runs through all Scripture.

Rem. That follows well on what we had this morning; according to Genesis 1 you could never think of the man alone, and anyone who loves Christ must think of the assembly.

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J.T. Yes, and as we had it at Bristol we must think of the sisters, the man and the woman.

Rem. The marriage bond is a reflex of what God had in His mind as to Christ and the assembly.

J.T. To leave sisters out from special meetings is really not according to the mind of God.

Rem. We really lose the full thought of the assembly.

J.T. Yes.

Rem. Ephesians 5 in speaking of wives and husbands is really speaking of Christ and the assembly.

J.T. That is right. The main thought is Christ and the assembly.

Ques. Do you think that in all the gatherings the saints should be the expression of this?

J.T. I do.

Ques. Is "the Spirit and the bride say, Come" on the same line?

J.T. There are two voices, but both saying one little word, 'Come', making their thoughts very united.

Ques. Does Isaiah 22 indicate the supremacy of Christ?

J.T. Certainly. In regulating the Lord's supper it is not an afterthought; it is the positive side, for everything for God is to be hung on Christ. At the Supper we have the thought of pouring out; it is one satisfying thought. As now on the first day of the week we have unbroken joy; that is the positive side of things that God has in His mind. All else will disappear and the one thing that remains is Christ and the assembly.

Ques. What does the "nail in a sure place" imply?

J.T. "And I will fasten him [as] a nail in a sure place; and he shall be for a throne of glory to his father's house: and they shall hang upon him all the glory of his father's house, the offspring and the

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issue, all the small vessels, as well the vessels of cups as all the vessels of flagons", that is to say that the first day of the week the Lord's supper comes in as a positive thought in God's mind; we are so many individuals to begin with, but all merging into one, yet each pouring out individually. The Spirit is in mind, and in the positiveness of blessing the Lord's Spirit leads up to the service of God, and then the individuals taking part, and the Spirit is needed for this.

Rem. The capacity of each vessel comes into view.

J.T. Each soul takes on his part in the blessing.

Rem. Including brothers and sisters.

J.T. Well, the sisters do not speak in the assembly, but they are there in an unspecified way; they join in the singing, of course. We must remember what Paul says, "I do not suffer a woman to teach nor to exercise authority over man" (1 Timothy 2:12), but she has a voice and can join in all the assembly services.

Rem. She adds her quota.

J.T. A very good word; it is just that.

Ques. What is implied in the nail being "in a sure place"?

J.T. That it will not be removed until it is in God's purpose. The man spoken of earlier, Shebna, was removed; and Saul was spoken of as removed to make way for David (Acts 13:22); but that is not the divine idea.

Rem. The Lord's service requires that each should hold his vessel as usable ready to be poured out.

J.T. Yes.

Ques. Does the "house of David" refer to the assembly?

J.T. It would refer to the peculiar quality of David. References are especially seen to him in Revelation 22:16 where Christ is spoken as "the root and offspring of David". The "root"

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implies God; He has His root in Deity, and was no less than God.

Rem. David's name is the first to be mentioned after Christ in Matthew, and the last name mentioned after Jesus in Revelation 22.

J.T. You mean in the gospel of Matthew it is called "Book of the generation of Jesus Christ, Son of David, Son of Abraham"; the generation of Jesus Christ, that is the real idea; David is mentioned before Abraham; it is a question of Christ Himself and His generation; think of what a list of persons who have part in the generations; Kingship is in mind.

Rem. It gives an impression of the opened door and all that comes in in the assembly.

J.T. Very good; and it is the male side in Matthew.

Rem. So "Judah prevailed among his brethren" (1 Chronicles 5:2); that would refer to David, "and of him was the prince".

J.T. Yes, there is peculiar quality in David, especially as seen in the last reference to him in Revelation 22.

Rem. So that the truth of the Lord's Person is involved in this expression; it is a major disclosure preparing the way for the Spirit and the bride to say, Come.

J.T. It speaks of the integration of Scripture, and how at the end all is explained in this "root of David", and at the beginning, in Genesis 1:26 it is "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness" so that we have the thought of likeness and image in the man, but in verse 1 it is "In the beginning God".

Rem. Your suggestion is that the assembly is not an afterthought.

J.T. No indeed; it was designed, and the "root" means that it is a prime thought.

Ques. As to David in Matthew 1, have you in

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mind that the glory of this should enter into assembly service? In Chronicles David set on the service of God.

J.T. So in Revelation the twenty-four elders serve there, and David is the author really of their service.

Ques. What would we understand from "the key of the house of David"?

J.T. It is the power to open; we are let into things by Christ, to positive things; He has the right of way into everything. When the Lord says in Matthew 16:13, "Who do men say that I the Son of man am?"Peter says, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God", and the Lord then says, "Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona, for flesh and blood has not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in the heavens. And I also, I say unto thee". The Father had made the revelation, but Christ, as Man, lets Peter into the whole matter, and lets us in, too, that "hades' gates shall not prevail against it". It is a time of opening things up to us.

Rem. This applies to the "opened door" in Philadelphia; Revelation 3:8.

J.T. In Smyrna and Philadelphia things are all right, and all intact, so the Lord says, "Behold, I make them of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews, and are not, but lie; behold, I will cause that they shall come and shall do homage before thy feet, and shall know that I have loved thee", Revelation 3:9. The Lord loves all the assemblies, and lets us into the secret of things, especially in Revelation.

Rem. It is in order that we all should enter in and understand the truth.

J.T. Take all the religious bodies, a hundred at least; they do not get anything of this, and yet the Lord Jesus lets us into this, and opens things up to us. He opens and "no one can shut". He has the right of way in everything.

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Rem. And the believer has to be on the line of faithful love.

J.T. Yes, and Ezekiel 37:24,25 speaks of it, "And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd ... and David my servant shall be their prince for ever". In religious associations they do not get let into things, but by the power of the Spirit they are opened up to us.

Rem. Because they glorify the wrong man.

J.T. Well, there you are, but upon Him "all the glory of his father's house" shall be hung. The Archbishop of Canterbury and the Pope do not get anything. It is the Lord Jesus and the Spirit that open up the truth to us.

Rem. As to the nail in the sure place, even the cups as well as the flagons hang upon it.

J.T. Yes, and the pouring out and the hanging on Christ; even the smallest of us, we all hang on Him. The Lord opens and shuts, and "all the glory of his father's house" hangs upon Him; and there is the pouring out referred to in Acts 2:17,18, the sons and daughters prophesying, pouring out and pouring out, and the visions coming in for the young men and the dreams for the elders, all comes in in the Spirit, because Christ asked for the Spirit and the Father poured out of His Spirit.

Ques. Does the filling with the Spirit referred to in Acts 2:4 show what is normal in the assembly? And it says in Acts 2:33 "he has poured out this which ye behold and hear"

J.T. Indeed it was an active, living state of things. The meetings are so important, even the preaching of the gospel is something positive to build up the assembly.

Rem. Eve was built, not just created.

J.T. It is a living positive thought. God built her from the rib; Adam was not built of the same

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material; Adam was made of clay; but Eve was taken out of Adam, a living thing, built up and completed.

Ques. As to Genesis 1:1 beginning with God and then man later, was Christ and the assembly God's prime thought?

J.T. Yes; both man and woman are included in the word 'Man' in Genesis 1:27, "male and female created he them" and they are named '(The Adam)' (see note). It is an enlarged thought on that of the previous verse.

Ques. It says in Genesis 2:22, "And Jehovah Elohim built the rib that he had taken from Man into a woman; and brought her to Man. And Man said, This time it is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh: this shall be called Woman, because this was taken out of a man" Is that Christ saying it?

J.T. Yes; Jehovah did not say it; but "this time" means that Eve was different, that is the assembly is different from anything else. The Lord Jesus lets us into things, that is the Lord Jesus as Man. He has become something He never was before; it is a question of the incarnation.

Rem. He does not say a word to Adam as to her.

J.T. That is it; He leaves Adam to say what there is to be said.

Rem. He invented new words.

J.T. 'Ish' and 'Ishshah'; she was just 'out of Ish'.

Rem. His affections constantly cherishing the woman.

J.T. According to the New Testament He "nourishes and cherishes it", Ephesians 5:29.

Rem. So that it is not an inferior stratum of humanity out of Christ.

J.T. And yet not divine; a creature after all; she is not part of the Deity, in which there are the

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three Persons, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Ques. Does the Lord Jesus open up to us the kind of manhood in the assembly?

J.T. Let us read the passage in Revelation 3:7,8 "And to the angel of the assembly in Philadelphia write: These things saith the holy, the true; he that has the key of David, he who opens and no one shall shut, and shuts and no one shall open: I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an opened door, which no one can shut, because thou hast a little power, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name". You mean that this is seen in the assembly.

Rem. Yes, an appreciation of it, and hence "the key". The failure of the assembly publicly was the failure to recognise Christ in His place.

J.T. Yes; and in the last chapter they are so close together; the Spirit, a divine Person, and yet together with the bride, saying, Come.

Rem. The fact that she is a creature keeps the assembly among the companies of the Revelation.

J.T. Just so. She gets the revelation to her. The Lord says to Peter in Matthew 16:17, "flesh and blood has not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in the heavens". He was dependent on revelation; but the double thought is there, of the Father revealing the name to Peter, and then the Lord giving him the keys of the kingdom, and the binding and loosing. The two things I want to put together, the Father revealing to Peter, and the Lord, too, so that this is a double thing.

Rem. The two divine Persons come in there.

J.T. That is it. And now we have chapter 22.

Rem. It is very striking for it says, "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come"; she is not independent; it is not the Spirit telling the bride.

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J.T. The "and" begins the whole matter, and it runs back into infinitude. The Spirit must be infinite; we are let into what is infinite, yet we are not divine.

Ques. Is the bride brought into unity with the Spirit?

J.T. Yes; peculiar unity, for she says the same thing.

Rem. We are learning now through the Spirit how to speak and when to speak, and to say the right thing; it all enters into the present time.

J.T. That opens up the present time, and John's gospel; and we know how to identify divine Persons, and what They say, and when They say it.

Rem. So John 12:41 speaks of Isaiah seeing His glory.

J.T. What we were saying of John's gospel is of prime importance, as to divine Persons saying things and when They say them, especially in John 14:16, "And I will beg the Father, and he will give you another Comforter", and then in many instances divine Persons are identified and identifiable.

Ques. Does this imply the place They each have taken?

J.T. Just so.

Rem. It is necessary for us to discern.

J.T. Certainly. We are not left in the dark as to what is spoken, and what They are saying. Then we have Matthew 28:19, the full revelation of the economy.

Ques. Is the service of the Spirit to the bride connected with His being in us, and alongside of us?

J.T. Every feature of His service is in us. His sayings are in us.

Rem. I meant two separate entities, the Spirit and the bride; and the bride rising to the Spirit's

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feelings, what she becomes through the Lord's word in John 14:17, "for he abides with you, and shall be in you", thus there is a distinction between the Spirit in us, and with us, as the Paraclete.

J.T. Yes. He is with us here this afternoon, as Paraclete, as objectively seen amongst us.

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THE SPIRIT QUICKENING THE BODIES OF THE SAINTS

1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 18; Romans 8:11

J.T. The coming of the Lord is generally linked with 1 Thessalonians 4, and it is designated as the rapture. Many scriptures could be cited, but these are sufficient. The one in Thessalonians is linked with the Lord's own coming, and the one in Romans 8 is the other side of the subject, and connected with the Spirit, who is spoken much of here, as in Romans generally. So it is said, "But if the Spirit of him that has raised up Jesus from among [the] dead dwell in you, he that has raised up Christ from among [the] dead shall quicken your mortal bodies also on account of his Spirit which dwells in you". This verse connects our subject with the Spirit, and it is to be noted that where we read of the rapture in Thessalonians the Spirit is not mentioned. It says, "the dead in Christ shall rise first; then we, the living who remain" and does not say anything as to the Spirit, but in Romans it does, "But if the Spirit of him that has raised up Jesus from among [the] dead dwell in you, he that has raised up Christ from among [the] dead shall quicken your mortal bodies also on account of his Spirit which dwells in you"; it is "mortal bodies" not 'dead bodies'; He "shall quicken your mortal bodies also on account of his Spirit which dwells in you". We shall all get help in looking into this scripture, and, maybe, others. Divine Persons do things, and are identified in what They do. The dead are not said to be raised by the Spirit, but the living are quickened by the Spirit.

Ques. Is the verse in Romans 8 linked with "the living who remain"?

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J.T. At the rapture all will be living and caught up, hence the 'rapture'; it is attributed to Christ Himself here. So that what the Spirit is stressing is the action, or activity, or work of he Spirit Himself. It is important to connect the Spirit with the rapture, that is the catching up of the saints in the air. The quickening is the act of the Spirit.

Rem. In the next chapter Paul says, "quench not the Spirit", 1 Thessalonians 5:19.

J.T. So your point is to stress there that the Spirit's activity should not be questioned. This was a young assembly, yet it is very apparent that the Spirit is connected with the living bodies of the saints on earth.

Ques. Would the quenching be collective?

J.T. I have thought of that. But quickening is individual.

Ques. May quenching characterise a meeting?

J.T. It very often happens; grieving Him, something in one or all of us. There are deep feelings with us now that the Spirit as Paraclete is known in the assembly. Then He is engaged with our bodies as alive, and before the rapture. He must act to make us fit to be raptured. The rapture is the action of the Lord Himself.

Rem. "Your whole spirit, and soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ", 1 Thessalonians 5:23.

Ques. Do you think the passage in Romans 8 would help us to value the company of the Spirit here?

J.T. There are thirteen references to the Spirit in Romans 8, showing how active the Spirit is in this passage of Scripture.

Rem. In all His personal activities joining "its help to our weakness", Romans 8:26.

J.T. "But if the Spirit of him that has raised up Jesus from among [the] dead dwell in you, he that has raised up Christ from among [the] dead shall quicken

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your mortal bodies also on account of his Spirit which dwells in you", so that "Jesus" is distinguished from "Christ", and vice versa; and "dwelling" is mentioned twice.

Rem. It is the Spirit of God that dwells in us.

J.T. Just so.

Ques. Does the passage stress the greatness of the Spirit of God and the greatness of His power where it goes on to say, "we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to flesh; for if ye live according to flesh, ye are about to die; but if, by the Spirit, ye put to death the deeds of the body, ye shall live: for as many as are led by [the] Spirit of God, these are sons of God" (Romans 8:12 - 14); it is the greatness of the Spirit of God dwelling in us in power? Can this be linked with what the Lord said to Martha?

J.T. Yes; go on.

Rem. "I am the resurrection and the life: he that believes on me, though he have died, shall live", John 11:25.

J.T. That is the resurrection.

Rem. "And everyone who lives and believes on me shall never die", John 11:26. They would be alive at the Lord's coming, as we are here.

J.T. If the Lord should descend now there would have to be an action of the Spirit to fit us for the rapture.

Rem. "We shall not all fall asleep, but we shall all be changed", 1 Corinthians 15:51.

J.T. "In an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet", 1 Corinthians 15:52.

Ques. What is the difference between the quickening here in Romans 8, and what it says in 1 Corinthians 15:45, "the last Adam a quickening spirit"?

J.T. It is a question there of the Lord Jesus as the last Adam. It is very important. Romans 8 is the Spirit; the "last Adam" is not the Spirit. The Spirit is the Spirit; He is a divine Person,

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"his Spirit which dwells in you". I just wonder whether God will have us recognise the greatness of the indwelling Spirit, who will complete all the work. Well, we might say the Lord Jesus will do it all; but He does not, though He raised the dead.

Rem. Raising the dead is connected with all three of the divine Persons, in John 5:21 it is the Father who "raises the dead and quickens them", and then "the Son also quickens whom he will", and here it is the Spirit.

J.T. All three divine Persons are seen quickening, but as to raising the dead, the Lord Jesus does that.

Ques. Is it the Spirit's action as dwelling in us?

J.T. Yes, it is an added thought to what we have had.

Rem. There is a double reference to the resurrection in this verse, and in Romans 6:4 we have Christ "raised up from among [the] dead by the glory of the Father", which would have a bearing, a powerful one, on the future, as well as on the present.

J.T. Yes, both on the Jews and the church. The church is a special feature of the glory of the Lord Jesus; He does things; "The Father loves the Son, and has given all things [to be] in his hand", John 3:35. Doing things now is one matter, and then the body is the Lord's, the body is "for the Lord, and the Lord for the body", 1 Corinthians 6:13.

Rem. The major line of the apostle's thought in verse 14, "so also God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep through Jesus" is linked up with chapter 5:1,2, and the truth of the rapture is in the parenthesis in between.

J.T. The apostle says, "But we do not wish you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them that are fallen asleep, to the end that ye be not grieved even as also the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus has died and has risen again, so also God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep

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through Jesus"; then we have the parenthesis in verses 15 - 18.

Rem. As additional light.

J.T. As if the apostle showed his concern that they should have it fully; they were in great ignorance as to this great matter, and maybe some of us are; so he uses the word "ignorant". Those that sleep through Jesus God will bring with Him; it is a remarkable manifestation of the action of divine Persons.

Ques. Will quickening and raising be simultaneous, according to Philippians 3:21?

J.T. That is an oft quoted passage, showing that we shall be like the Lord; so John says, "we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is", 1 John 3:2.

Ques. Is the Spirit supposed as the agent, though not always mentioned? So it says the Lord Jesus "shall transform our body of humiliation into conformity to his body of glory, according to the working of the power which he has even to subdue all things to himself", Philippians 3:21; the Lord is spoken of as doing it; is the Spirit's action included in this?

J.T. Why not?

Ques. Does Philippians 3:21 go further in referring to "conformity to his body of glory", and does the quickening go further than resurrection?

J.T. No, it does not.

Ques. Is therefore the account in Philippians additional, as Christ's own action, yet the Spirit's power is there?

J.T. Quite so.

Rem. The end of the verse read, "according to the working of the power which he has even to subdue all things to himself", would imply the Spirit's action.

J.T. Yes.

Ques. What about Ephesians 3:20, "according to the power which works in us"?

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J.T. That is the Spirit, too. The more you look into all these thoughts, the more you see the inferential mention of the Spirit, which has been overlooked till now.

Rem. Earlier, in 1 Thessalonians 4:8, He is spoken of as being in the believer.

J.T. The allusion there is to certain rights that brothers should have among themselves, and that they should not be interfered with.

Rem. The fact of the distinction between the references to Jesus and to Christ in Romans 8:11 is marked provision for the church; so Jesus is not mentioned in the way that Christ and the church are mentioned.

J.T. I have often thought of that. "As to Christ and as to the assembly" is what is said. So the allusion in Ephesians 5:32 is back to Genesis 2, showing that there Christ and the assembly were in mind.

Rem. So that the raising up of Jesus and the raising up of Christ are distinct thoughts.

J.T. To settle certain opinions current in the assemblies. The assembly is the main thought now; it is the completion of the whole matter. That is the one thing that should engage us now. As we sit in our houses, what do we talk of? God, the Father; the Son, Jesus; the Spirit, the Holy Spirit? There is so much said that has to be elucidated. In Corinthians it speaks of the Head of every man being Christ; 1 Corinthians 11:3. How can we show that the Spirit has a place in the headship as to the covering, and how much can we say in our houses as to it?

Rem. "And these words ... thou shalt ... talk of them when thou sittest in thy house, and when thou goest on the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up", Deuteronomy 6:6,7.

J.T. It has been very much before us of late as to the sisters being segregated from the brothers at

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certain times. Well, they are not to speak, but at times they are to prophesy. What are our sisters to do? It is a real problem as to what they are to do, as for instance when the scripture is chosen, why are they not there?

Ques. Do you mean present at everything?

J.T. Present, but silent.

Ques. What would you say as to sisters desiring to walk with us?

J.T. You would ask a sister as to such.

Rem. So Barak was not far wrong in refusing to go without Deborah.

J.T. Yet Deborah is omitted from Hebrews 11.

Rem. Four women are mentioned in the generations of Matthew 1.

J.T. Give them all.

Rem. Matthew 1, verse 3, "Thamar", verse 5 "Rachab" and "Ruth", and in verse 6, "her that had been the wife of Urias".

J.T. So the women are not ignored but are in the line of the Lord's own generation.

Ques. Is it therefore a hint or inference of what place women would have in the great assembly gospel?

J.T. Yes.

Rem. What about our scripture? Why is the Spirit mentioned so frequently?

J.T. Well, we should take notice of that.

Rem. In Romans 8 you said He is mentioned thirteen times.

Rem. It is really His chapter.

J.T. It is, but in 1 Thessalonians 4 He is not mentioned, though He is in Romans 8:11.

Ques. Is it a combined action?

J.T. Yes. The Holy Spirit operates in our hearts because we are waiting for the rapture. The Spirit will, I suppose, go with us having quickened us.

Rem. "The dead in Christ shall rise first" as if

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life is there, and they answer to His voice, as Lazarus did.

J.T. Someone has said that if the Lord in John 11 had not said "Lazarus", all the dead would have come forth. It is very striking, and shows the power of Christ.

Ques. Are "Christ's day" (Philippians 1:10), and "the day of redemption" (Ephesians 4:30) for which we have been sealed by "the Holy Spirit of God", the same thing?

J.T. The adoption is sonship.

Ques. Does it apply to the body?

J.T. It is the one thing the body awaits, "awaiting adoption, that is the redemption of our body", Romans 8:23.

Rem. That involves sonship.

Ques. Is the quickening of "your mortal bodies" the same thing?

J.T. That is the one thing we await, "awaiting adoption" (or 'sonship', see note). Ephesians 4:30, "sealed for the day of redemption" is the same allusion.

Rem. It is also mentioned in Ephesians 1:14.

J.T. There it is "the redemption of the acquired possession", Ephesians 1:14; it is what God has acquired.

Rem. We have the earnest, but not the actual thing.

Ques. Will there be any lack, or anything lost, if we do not die, and therefore have not the experience of resurrection, but are only changed?

J.T. In 1 Corinthians 15:51,52 it says, "we shall all be changed, in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye".

Ques. But will we miss the experience of death and resurrection?

J.T. We shall all be perfectly satisfied.

Rem. But there is a difference.

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J.T. There is none. The quickening of the Spirit is the same thing in all.

Ques. Is the reference to "your mortal bodies" equivalent to 'dying bodies', even if we do not die?

J.T. 'Resurrection' is the word, "But if the Spirit of him that has raised up Jesus from among [the] dead dwell in you".

Ques. Does Colossians 2:12 apply to this, "through faith of the working of God who raised him from among the dead"?

J.T. After the baptism of a child, there was the child lifted out by loving hands, and the water was carried out like carrying out a dead body. It struck me so. The first day of the week, we sit down and we have the sense of the Lord Jesus as a dead body before us, and as time goes on we apprehend Christ as raised from the dead; and not only is the believer put in the water, but raised out of it.

Rem. The Spirit is the power for raising.

J.T. Without Him we should all be dead.

Ques. Does Philippians 3:11 help? "If any way I arrive at the resurrection from among [the] dead".

J.T. He is thinking of himself. We arrive at it morally as having the Spirit, and as together at the breaking of bread, we come into a living state of things in sonship.

Rem. It is a faith matter for those who accept circumcision and burial with Him in baptism.

J.T. The Spirit makes it more than faith.

Ques. Is Romans 8:11 future and literal, while Colossians 2:11,12 is present for us?

J.T. Read Romans 8:11 again, "But if the Spirit of him that has raised up Jesus from among [the] dead dwell in you, he that has raised up Christ from among [the] dead shall quicken your mortal bodies also on account of his Spirit which dwells in you". That does not happen on the first day of the week; that is additional. The quickening is by the Spirit's power.

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Rem. In Ezekiel 37:14 the Spirit is mentioned: "And I will put my Spirit in you, and ye shall live".

J.T. That is what will happen to Israel. It is figurative there, not literal. It is what is called the millennial Israel raised in a figure, but we shall be raised in a literal way. The millennium is not there yet, but we are; it shows what God can do when He wills.

Rem. The millennium is God dealing with flesh and blood, but for us the experiences are spiritual now.

J.T. That is it. On the first day of the week in our experiences we are "raised up together", and made to "sit down together". Anticipation is a great thing in the Spirit.

Rem. So that in Romans 12:1 this has a present bearing, "to present your bodies a living sacrifice".

J.T. That is the present bearing, and we come into it on the first day of the week as having the Spirit. We are raised together, and quickened together; these are synchronous; then we all go up together.

Rem. By the Spirit God "gives us the victory by our Lord Jesus Christ" now; 1 Corinthians 15:57.

J.T. Yes.

Ques. Why do you emphasise "your mortal bodies" in Romans 8:11?

J.T. Because it is that we are mortal, and if God so orders it we shall die.

Rem. We should not use this verse at a burial.

J.T. That is the distinction between Romans 8:11 and 1 Thessalonians 4.

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THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE FATHER AND THE SON

John 17

Rem. The main thought was to get help as to the personal relations suggested in this chapter between the Father and the Son and the saints, and how it enters into our relations and the service of God. The Lord says, "Father", and the personal pronoun is used so much; the personal relations are brought out more here.

J.T. It is a unique chapter.

Rem. Our feeling is that our deficiency in the service of God, as in other things, is due to our lack of intimate knowledge of the Persons, and of one another, too. We should serve better if we knew the Persons better to whom we speak in prayer.

J.T. Perhaps there is nothing in which we are so deficient as the knowledge of divine Persons, and how here They turn to the saints. We should learn from what we see in the Scriptures, especially in the gospels, what They will be with us eternally. In Genesis 1 we have "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth", and in John 1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God", and immediately we have the means by which God communed with men. So we have, "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over the whole earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth on the earth. And God created Man in his image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them", Genesis 1:26,27. So that the idea of manhood is seen throughout, and especially in John's gospel.

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So John 1:4 reads, "In him was life and the life was the light of men", that is it is a question of men, and it was "man" in Genesis 1; and in Genesis 5:1 there is a further reference, "This is the book of Adam's generations. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him. Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created".

Ques. Do you think the faculty of speech in man is the instrumentality which God will use in this thought of the Word in John 1?

J.T. We have many expressions covering this thought in John and elsewhere. It is the divine means of communication with man; it is nowhere more expressed than in John's gospel.

Rem. The Lord breathing into the disciples in John 20 shows that.

J.T. A very good reference. He breathed into them the breath of life, and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit", John 20:22. So the power was given peculiarly by speaking; it is on God's side to men, and of man to God, and the Lord Jesus communicated the power of reception of the Holy Spirit, "Receive the Holy Spirit". It could not be said of any other creature, though angels participate in what man has in a general way, "When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy", Job 38:7.

Rem. 1 Corinthians 13:1 suggests they are eloquent in speech.

J.T. Quote it, please.

Rem. "If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels", 1 Corinthians 13:1

J.T. They get that place; "Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out for service on account of those who shall inherit salvation?" Hebrews 1:14. So that the sons of God are seen in Genesis 6:2, and the "heroes" or "men of renown" arise, a link

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between angels and men. So we get them throughout Scripture, especially in Revelation.

Now in John 17 we have, "These things Jesus spoke, and lifted up his eyes to heaven and said, Father". There you get the most beautiful communications between God and Man. "As thou hast given him authority over all flesh, that [as to] all that thou hast given to him, he should give them life eternal. And this is the eternal life, that they should know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent". That is that all whom the Father has given the Son are to have eternal life, and the knowledge of the Father and the Son, and we are to be brought into it.

Rem. This chapter is really an opening out of verse 18 of chapter 1.

J.T. The declaration by the Son is part of the declaration there; I would say that. The Lord turned away from His disciples, and ceased speaking of those things, "and lifted up his eyes to heaven and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son may glorify thee; as thou hast given him authority over all flesh, that [as to] all that thou hast given to him, he should give them life eternal. And this is the eternal life, that they should know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent". So both the Father and the Son are to be known through this communication.

Ques. Could we have a word as to the introduction of eternal life in view of the great matter of the relations entered upon?

J.T. As has been said before, it goes back to John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whosoever believes on him may not perish, but have life eternal". This is an enhancement of that; "the hour is come ... that as to all that thou hast given to him, he should give them life eternal". So that it is the great thought

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of the gift, and what the thing is, as stated in John 3:16. God loves men and the world in fact, and that is why eternal life is given. What an opening up there is as we place ourselves in relation to men, men as given to the Son by the Father, and what is known between the Father and the Son, and the men given to Him, and what the life eternal is, see the note, '(emphasis on eternal)'; not simply life, but eternal life.

Ques. Eternal life consisting in knowledge, is it therefore a matter of the mind?

J.T. Men once said the eternal life is a Person, Christ. But it is what it is, that kind of life.

Rem. It is life exemplified in men.

J.T. Yes. In due time we shall see that when Paul comes on to the scene, the whole thing is beautifully and intelligently given. Verse 3 says, "And this is the eternal life, that they should know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent". John says also, "He is the true God and eternal life", 1 John 5:20. So we must be careful, and meditate on the two passages. It is spoken of in connection with the Father and the Son.

Ques. What is the thought of the only true God?

J.T. To overthrow idolatry.

Ques. And what is the thought of the Lord Jesus as "the true God" in 1 John 5?

J.T. It is an opening up of the thought, and of the names of divine Persons. The Spirit is the true God, too. We have to submit to the thought of what is inscrutable. It bows our hearts and subdues us, that we should be brought into it at all.

Rem. We should be guarded as to how we speak of the Deity. It is what we have in the Spirit.

J.T. "No one knows the Son but the Father, nor does anyone know the Father, but the Son, and he to whom the Son may be pleased to reveal [him]", Matthew 11:27. If we are to be brought into all this

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it is to produce holiness, and see that this is promoted in us, and get the right feelings.

Rem. "Pursue peace with all, and holiness, without which no one shall see the Lord", Hebrews 12:14.

J.T. Quite so.

Rem. We should read this scripture contextually and get to the Father.

J.T. Well, compare spiritual things with spiritual. All the time possible needs to be devoted to these things, to reading and prayer. From the divine side all is done, but from our side we have to see what is possible.

Rem. "That they should know thee" -- so intimate and personal; it is devoid of the official side, so our part is less formal in the assembly. How great the Father's pleasure to hear the Son speaking in this way!

J.T. Then there was the voice from heaven, the Father's voice to the Son.

Rem. "I have manifested thy name"; that would be the Father's name.

J.T. It is "manifested", too; we are to keep that in mind. It is a question of the affections, and we are brought into it, that is, into what is manifested.

Rem. Hence the glorious place of the Spirit.

J.T. Quite so; hence He says in John 20, "Receive the Holy Spirit".

Ques. "For the words which thou hast given me I have given them, and they have received them"; is that the receiving you speak of?

J.T. "Received them"; how much receiving has there been of what has been ministered?

Ques. We should be Bereans, to see if things are so. The lack of believing is because of our lack of receiving.

J.T. You spoke of it in prayer. How much there is to search out, as for hidden treasure!

Ques. As to "I have completed the work which

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thou gavest me that I should do it"; in Jesus the work was finished, but is there the Lord's thought that we should complete things, and not leave them unfinished?

J.T. Certainly go in for things; especially the young are to lay themselves out for them.

Ques. What is meant by the word 'manifested'?

J.T. It refers to what is brought to our attention, that we may apprehend; so that what is manifested becomes simple. It is much used in John's writings. It comes three times into John 21. So that the Lord is not hiding Himself, but opening things up to us. So in this chapter, "this is the eternal life, that they should know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent. I have glorified thee on the earth, I have completed the work which thou gavest me that I should do it; and now glorify me, thou Father, along with thyself, with the glory which I had along with thee before the world was. I have manifested thy name to the men whom thou gavest me out of the world. They were thine, and thou gavest them me, and they have kept thy word". Beautiful thoughts, and the Lord attributing it to the saints, that they have kept the Father's word. John would help us, so that we may be in things and keep them.

Ques. Is there a link between "I have manifested thy name" and what is said in John 1:14, "and we have contemplated his glory"?

J.T. "We have contemplated his glory, a glory as of an only-begotten with a father, full of grace and truth", John 1:14. In verse 6 here it is "I have manifested thy name to the men whom thou gavest me out of the world". Notice that. And then, "They were thine, and thou gavest them me, and they have kept thy word. Now they have known that all things that thou hast given me are of thee; for the words which thou hast given me I have given them, and

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they have received [them], and have known truly that I came out from thee, and have believed that thou sentest me". The Lord is thus crediting us with it, in principle, at least, as if the Lord would say at that time, 'In principle they have kept what the Spirit has been ministering'. So that the Lord would assure us that in some sense at least, in principle, it is so.

Rem. It goes wider than John 6:68?

J.T. "Thou hast words of life eternal"; this is more than that.

Ques. Does it imply that what was in Him as "the Word" now has a definite place in the saints?

J.T. It makes all a verity as we are drawn after Him. We need to be assured of things at times.

Ques. Is that why He says so often, "Verily, verily"?

J.T. Good. It is an expression found in John alone. It occurs twenty-four times in that gospel.

Rem. What came out in Christ is continued in the saints. "Thy word" is equal to the testimony of God in a complete sense. Is that the word which we have now?

J.T. The Lord would say certain things about us to the Father, as a man loves to speak of his children, and the Lord is like that: "Children", He says in John 21:5.

Rem. He says, too, "I am glorified in them".

J.T. Yes.

Ques. Does the thought of "the words" in verse 8 imply things developed among the saints in a conversational way?

J.T. I am sure the Lord is looking on, and would call attention to what we are, and what we have taken in. That is what will happen in heaven.

Rem. Verse 6 is to impress us with "I" ... "Thou" ... "they"

J.T. Let us read it, "I have manifested thy name to the men whom thou gavest me out of the world.

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They were thine, and thou gavest them me, and they have kept thy word", that is the Lord is calling attention to us according to what we are, and John's gospel is intended for that. We are before God, before each other, and before the universe.

Rem. In Acts 10 the men sent from Cornelius say to Peter that he had been "divinely instructed by a holy angel to send for thee to his house, and hear words from thee" (Acts 10:22).

J.T. Yes; and what does the angel say earlier?

Rem. "Thy prayers and thine alms have gone up for a memorial before God", Acts 10:4.

J.T. Then the Spirit speaks to Peter in verse 19; He is brought into it.

Rem. "The word" is enlarged on in Acts 10:36.

J.T. It is "the testimony" of the Lord Jesus (Acts 10:37); the divine command. Cornelius had already built up a memorial for himself in heaven. It is remarkable what the work of God is in men, and how the Lord glories in it.

Rem. "I am glorified in them" runs through the whole dispensation.

J.T. I hope so, and what has been brought about in it.

Rem. The feeling way that the Lord prays for the saints in verse 11 shows how He values them.

J.T. And so He proceeds in verse 12, "When I was with them I kept them in thy name; those thou hast given me I have guarded, and not one of them has perished, but the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled. And now I come to thee. And these things I speak in the world, that they may have my joy fulfilled in them" This shows a further thought, how the Lord desires to fill us out and beautify us for His own service. He is filling out the assembly; He has died for her.

Rem. Verses 22 and 23 are a wonderful conception.

J.T. Read them.

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Rem. "And the glory which thou hast given me I have given them, that they may be one, as we are one; I in them and thou in me, that they may be perfected into one [and] that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and that [thou] hast loved them as thou hast loved me". The intimacy implied is indescribable.

J.T. It is indescribable, and that we should be brought into the range of it.

Ques. When the Lord says "I demand" in verse 9, it is the emphatic 'I'; is that because of the lovability of the saints? The ministry of Christ had that effect.

J.T. Especially life; it is that that is so beautiful in creatures. John enlarges on it; his subject is life, eternal life. It is worked out in his epistles, because God loves us. In the epistle it is because we have it. Life is the most glorious and beautiful thought there is.

Rem. It answers to the full divine blessing for man in Psalm 133:3.

J.T. That is a well-known passage in the Psalms.

Ques. What is involved in "the glory" in verse 22?

J.T. I suppose it would be sonship, "And the glory which thou hast given me I have given them, that they may be one, as we are one; I in them and thou in me, that they may be perfected into one [and] that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and that [thou] hast loved them as thou hast loved me". There is no doubt verse 22 is sonship. The glory the Lord had as Son is imparted to them.

Ques. Could you say a word as to verse 5, "And now glorify me, thou Father, along with thyself, with the glory which I had along with thee before the world was"? Could we know anything about that glory?

J.T. It is inscrutable glory between Themselves. What can we say? Who has seen it? Not even angels have seen it.

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Ques. That being so, why does He bring it in within the hearing of His disciples?

J.T. To enrich them. That is what the Lord is doing to give us a sense of the enrichment He is bringing to us, and bringing us into.

Ques. Is the sequel in verse 10? "And I am glorified in them".

J.T. What enrichment there is in that! We have to learn to get accustomed to these things. We had it in Birmingham. It was one of the richest times, marked by the brevity in which the brethren were enabled to speak.

Ques. What is the thought of sanctification in verse 17?

J.T. Let us read it, "Sanctify them by the truth: thy word is truth. As thou hast sent me into the, world, I also have sent them into the world; and I sanctify myself for them, that they also may be sanctified by truth". He is doing it as an example.

Ques. Does it involve our presence in the world?

J.T. Just so. He was not speaking to glorify Himself, but speaking of what we are.

Ques. Does what the Lord says of Philadelphia come in?

J.T. What are you quoting from?

Rem. "Behold, I make them of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews, and are not, but lie; behold, I will cause that they shall come and shall do homage before thy feet, and shall know that I have loved thee", Revelation 3:9.

J.T. Made to worship before her feet! It is wonderful.

Rem. The saints are "called saints", that is sanctified persons.

J.T. Very good; it is an expression in Romans 1.

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Rem. Yes, and other expressions, too. It refers to their dignity publicly as in the testimony.

J.T. The assembly is the greatest of all families in the universe; they are "called saints" (Romans 1:7); and so in 1 John 3:1, "that we should be called the children of God", and "we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is" (verse 2).

Ques. What would the glory be in verse 24?

"Father, as to those whom thou hast given me, I desire that where I am they also may be with me, that they may behold my glory which thou hast given me, for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world".

J.T. That is the second reference to the foundation of the world. In verse 5 is the other, "and now glorify me, thou Father, along with thyself, with the glory which I had along with thee before the world was"; the "me" is emphatic; but in verse 24 it is a great and glorious presentation there to enrich us.

Ques. "Before the world was" is outside of anything, but "before the foundation of the world" (verse 24), is it all that would come into display?

J.T. Verse 24 is what is brought into our range. The other in verse 5 we can leave, because it is such a definite statement.

Ques. In verse 24 is it the glory we see, the glory of a Person bringing in many brethren, many sons, the assembly, the world to come, the eternal day; is it His glory?

J.T. He is speaking of us, glorifying us, and He loves to do it because He has such affection for us. We are what He has made us.

Rem. He is there now as Man exalted. He has a divine right to be there.

J.T. He became a man, and what He was before the world was has to be left. Only divine Persons have seen it.

Rem. It is inscrutability.

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J.T. That is the word.

Rem. The assembly was in the thoughts of God before the foundation of the world, but Israel came into view after the foundation of the world.

J.T. That is the thought. There will, I suppose, be no Israel after the world to come. "Men" is the thought.

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THE DEVELOPMENT OF THE TRUTH IN DETAIL

1 John 2:18 - 29

J.T. This epistle is intended to develop the truth in detail; in the gospel it is more general; so the idea of age is given here in a threefold manner: fathers, young men and little children; and then this idea of detail is of great importance, especially for young believers. God takes account of us in our ages. "Little children" is more diminutive than 'children', which would indicate Christians generally, that is Christianity. We have no Sunday schools for the little children for them to learn in; but these epistles of John are not that, for "children" gives the full idea of Christianity, "My children" (verse 1); but then in verse 18 it is "Little children". John's exercise as to the persons he writes to shows that the servant is free to use his judgment as to the truth, and which designation he uses.

P.L. It adds dignity to them, adding growth in love; we are to hold them in love.

Ques. Why is it "the last hour"?

J.T. It is a solemn thought; we shall not hear it again. In verse 14 it is the thought of "young men", that is persons of greater growth; "I have written to you, young men, because ye are strong"; you can count on them in matters of controversy to abide in the truth.

P.L. So in John 21 we have sheep and lambs distinguished.

J.T. Yes, you can say something about that.

P.L. It is as if John would show the grades in the family. We have the Lord's own utterance in John 17:6, "the men", He says.

J.T. Yes; there is full growth there, and more; there is responsibility, and so here in verse 14,

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"I have written to you, fathers, because ye have known him [that is] from the beginning. I have written to you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abides in you, and ye have overcome the wicked [one]. Love not the world, nor the things in the world", They are all placed under great responsibility with such language to each of the three grades, and we must treat them accordingly, whether little children or fathers, if they are that.

Ques. Any feature of the world marking the young men would put them at a distance, so lust is mentioned, thinking of the product in those who had tasted of the world. Can we not be worldly and yet go to the meetings? And then put oneself at a distance from the Father? Have we not to overcome?

J.T. Yes; and to consider that women, and young women, come under this; they may be marked by insubjection and irresponsibility, leaving all to the brothers, and John takes account of the saints as they are, and puts responsibility on them as it belongs to them.

Rem. This word is like a fertiliser to make the saints more fruitful. John's ministry is for that.

J.T. I would think so. The Lord regards him as a special man, "That disciple therefore whom Jesus loved" (John 21:7), and as to the sisters, it is a question whether they can defend the truth.

P.L. "The elect lady and her children" of 2 John 1, and Gaius, too, in 3 John?

J.T. Yes; a great sense of responsibility is to be in the brothers' minds. We began reading at verse 18, "Little children, it is the last hour"; there is not much time to make up for any loss, so we are to make the most of the time we have. "Even now there have come many antichrists", a remarkable word. We should have to look about to find these, those who are opposed to the truth.

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P.L. Young people at school are confronted with the antichrists.

J.T. Yes; and the young people need to make friends with the older ones, and not club together. They are very responsible.

P.L. They are to be warned by what happened to the little boys who mocked Elisha in 2 Kings 2:23.

J.T. Yes; there were forty-two of them torn, two she-bears came out after them.

E.S.H. Everyone breaking bread is responsible.

J.T. Yes, he has put his hand to it.

Ques. At twelve years old?

J.T. Yes, even ten years in the United States.

Ques. There should be some sense of responsibility, do you think?

J.T. I do indeed.

Rem. "Paul's sister's son" in Acts 23:16.

J.T. Yes, he brought a message to defend the truth.

P.L. Joseph at seventeen accepted responsibility.

J.T. He suffered, too.

Rem. The acceptance of responsibility is a great help to maturity. What is needed is manhood to bear the burdens of the testimony.

J.T. You would like the brethren, especially the young people, to read the books?

Rem. We are helped by our minds spiritually.

J.T. Yes.

Ques. Should we ask the young people if they read the ministry?

J.T. I agree.

A.H. "One shall say, I am Jehovah's; and another shall call himself by the name of Jacob", Isaiah 44:5.

J.T. Yes.

Rem. Our children should grow up in the environments of God's house.

J.T. But you have no children!

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Rem. They have spiritual children!

Rem. Samuel "opened the doors of the house of Jehovah", 1 Samuel 3:15.

J.T. He had a splendid mother and he learnt from her, "And his mother made him a little coat, and brought it to him from year to year", 1 Samuel 2:19.

Ques. Is "the unction from the holy one" the Holy Spirit, and would you look for that in one asking for his place?

P.L. The unction is what is rubbed in?

J.T. That is a good word.

Rem. This section for the little children is the longest of all.

J.T. That is just the point. Verse 18 indicates a very solemn time. There is very little time left.

Rem. The Lord as a boy of twelve was the perfect example, "did ye not know that I ought (to be in the things of my Father)?" Luke 2:49 (see note).

Rem. John is counting on the little children being early in the good of this word as to the Spirit being the unction.

J.T. So that they are persons who can deal with questions and be able to rub things in.

P.L. They are thrown on the Spirit. Would that be spiritual intuition?

J.T. Yes.

Eu.R. Would that involve the effect of household readings?

J.T. I know how concerned you are as to the children.

Ques. Does Psalm 144:12 indicate an advance in the household?

J.T. Yes; it comes late in the Psalms, and shows a great deal of experience.

Rem. It is good for the children to be encouraged in acts of service.

A.H. The reference to the truth, "Because ye

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know it" (verse 21), does that imply that it was learnt in the household?

J.T. Yes; it is most important for the children to have the household readings and prayer first, before they go into the world.

Rem. They are to begin the day with God, to counterbalance the antichrist.

J.T. Yes, for all that has to do with the schools, and the teachers are defective in things and teach error.

Ques. Can they challenge the lie then?

J.T. Just so, they would go back to what their parents say.

Rem. So Paul commends Timothy's upbringing, "that from a child thou hast known the sacred letters", 2 Timothy 3:15.

J.T. Yes; so he speaks of the faith that was in his grandmother and his mother and then in him; 2 Timothy 1:5.

Rem. Psalm 127:5 says, "They shall not be ashamed when they speak with enemies in the gate". Many children have spoken boldly as to creation.

J. T. These readings refer to certain courses of instruction, not to be found in the systems, so that the brethren are the more responsible; the Holy Spirit is here for that express purpose; He is sent down from heaven to encourage the parents, and as the Paraclete to help them on these lines. We all know that humanity is divided up into families, so that He especially helps parents.

J.H-n. The present truth is to help us to see that we cannot do without His help in any service.

J.T. In the Liverpool area, where you come from, the truth has been able to hold its own.

Rem. In these meetings there are several large families.

J.T. The more the better, for there should be no restriction. God claims the little ones.

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Ques. Should they be instructed as to the enemy's camp? He speaks of the antichrist to the children, and Paul speaks of the man of sin to the Thessalonians; 2 Thessalonians 2:3.

J.T. They were a company of young Christians.

Ques. Is the mother's place important? There were great results from the service of Samuel's mother, and of the wealthy woman of Shunem, 2 Kings 4:8.

J.T. So Phoebe in Romans 16 is a good example for all mothers; she cared for the saints in a motherly way.

Rem. Timothy would have received a splendid education from both his mother and his grandmother.

P.L. The reference to children as "an inheritance from Jehovah" in Psalm 127:3 would show that they are to be richly exploited.

J.T. Yes.

E.C.M. The Lord in Luke 8:51 asked for both the parents of the child to be present, and asked them to give food to her, so that He puts the responsibility on them.

J.T. Yes.

Rem. It says in Genesis 46:6,7, "they ... came to Egypt, Jacob and all his seed with him; his sons and his sons' sons with him, his daughters and his sons' daughters and all his seed he brought with him to Egypt".

J.T. Very good.

Rem. Many testings but no casualties!

J.T. So scripture is to furnish us. It is a most important matter, this about the little children, "Little children, it is [the] last hour, and, according as ye have heard that antichrist comes, even now there have come many antichrists, whence we know that it is [the] last hour. They went out from among us, but they were not of us" -- that is, they were not real -- "for if they had been of us, they would have

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surely remained with us, but that they might be made manifest that none are of us". How many have been lost in the one hundred and fifty years of the recovery. Open-brethrenism began almost at once, and still remains, and we need to watch that.

Ques. I had that in mind. Should the children be instructed in church history?

Rem. They are to learn to walk in the truth.

J.T. Yes; walking in it refers to conduct; a controlled mind in the truth.

Rem. "And I it was that taught Ephraim to walk", says Jehovah; Hosea 11:3.

J.T. Just so.

Rem. "Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou established praise because of thine adversaries, to still the enemy and the avenger", Psalm 8:2.

J.T. A very important scripture; it is like Psalm 127:5, "They shall not be ashamed when they speak with enemies in the gate". Now we have this idea of antichrists, "They went out from among us, but they were not of us"; so young people seek other matters, "they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have surely remained with us, but that they might be made manifest that none are of us. And ye have the unction from the holy [one], and ye know all things". The"ye" is emphatic; the "unction" refers to the Holy Spirit; "ye know all things" is being brought up in the truth, and so it says, "I have not written to you because ye do not know the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth. Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is the antichrist who denies the Father and the Son". It is a very solemn way of putting it, "he is the antichrist", there is no hesitation as to who antichrist is against. So he goes on, "Whoever denies the Son has not the Father either; he who confesses the Son has the

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Father also". There is, too, the great subject of eternal life, as in F.E.R.'s time, and it is in this epistle also, as in verse 25 here, and in verse 26, "those who lead you astray". Note this, they were potentially taught to "abide in him" (verse 27).

Rem. The "him" there would be the Holy Spirit, while in verse 24 it is the Father and the Son, so that the little children are encouraged to abide in each of the three Persons.

J.T. The question arises whether we can tell which divine Person is speaking at any given time.

Rem. We may not have thought enough of abiding in the unction, "but as the same unction teaches you as to all things, and is true and is not a lie, and even as it has taught you, ye shall abide in him".

J.T. It is this thought of rubbing things in, so that the person is impressed, and so in verse 29 it says, "If ye know that he is righteous, know that everyone who practises righteousness is begotten of him"; we practise it.

Rem. This links on with verse 17, "he that does the will of God abides for eternity"; it would involve our hands.

J.T. "Abides for eternity", a great idea.

Ques. Is the coming of the Lord regarded as imminent? It is mentioned in verse 28.

J.T. I should think so. "And now, children, abide in him, that if he be manifested we may have boldness, and not be put to shame from before him at his coming" "Children" here is the whole family.

Rem. The Lord's coming seems here to be brought forward to press the urgency of the thing he is speaking of.

J.T. Yes; this epistle helps us to work out details.

Rem. He presses the "last hour" on us all.

J.T. Yes.

Rem. The detail shows the divine care, and we need the same for each other.

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J.T. We are quite entitled to use the word 'brethren', not as a party thought, but as a family. It is most important to know who is speaking; all are equal in Deity, but not in frequency of speaking.

Rem. It says, "Now Samuel did not yet know Jehovah", 1 Samuel 3:7. The Spirit is the power for this.

J.T. Very important. Who is speaking? The Son alone is spoken of as being made "both Lord and Christ", Acts 2:36. The Spirit and the Father are not said to be made Lord.

Rem. The Son speaking generally implies the word of authority.

J.T. Yes; all things are in His hands; a peculiar responsibility. The Father is not made Lord, though called Lord.

Rem. The Son is over God's house; Hebrews 3:6.

J.T. That is the idea, so that "If therefore the Son shall set you free, ye shall be really free", John 8:36.

Rem. You have awakened a great exercise in all our hearts.

Rem. The attuned ear of the bride knew the beloved's voice; Song of Songs 5:2.

Rem. The parental voice of the Father speaks with its own quality.

J.T. In the economy it is of the greatest importance to know who is speaking, and we should know, and the Holy Spirit was sent by Him for that express purpose.

Rem. At the Supper we should know.

J.T. Yes; we begin with the saints in looking at them. Then there is authority in the Lord, His authority; so He is in mind from the very outset. It is His supper.

Ques. Would you expect the Spirit to speak?

J.T. Yes, it is right that He should speak. Rem. "A revelation to another sitting there"

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(1 Corinthians 14:30) shows the Spirit has liberty to speak.

Rem. If we understood more the titles used of the Spirit in ministry we should be more accustomed to receive spiritual impressions.

J.T. Just so; Their voice is to us, not to every one, and we can speak to Them; the Father comes in later in the service.

Ques. Would the speaking be especially at the Supper because we are kindred with Christ?

J.T. So it says (Psalm 45:10), "Hearken, daughter, and see, and incline thine ear". In Acts 20:7 Paul had liberty by the Spirit to speak, and Peter (Acts 10:14) calls the Spirit "Lord".

Rem. It says in Acts 15:28, "For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us"; He must have spoken.

Rem. Paul says, "The Spirit speaks expressly", 1 Timothy 4:1.

J.T. That would be a special matter; "in the last days difficult times shall be there", 2 Timothy 3:1.

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FAITHFULNESS IN PERSONS

Joshua 2

J.T. The point of interest is man in these historical books. The truth stands out in this chapter. We have the faithfulness of persons raised up in Old Testament times and reappearing in the New Testament. I suppose we might regard the book as a military one. Joshua was a military man in relation to the truth of the inheritance in securing it and laying hold of it. It is "the land"

Ques. In Joshua 1 Jehovah's word to Joshua was, "Be strong and courageous, for thou shalt cause this people to inherit the land which I have sworn unto their fathers to give them"; is it in your mind that as military leader he should bring them in?

J.T. I thought of that. It is most suitable for today, the first day of the week, to be occupied with the inheritance that God has given us. Men speak much of inheritances. The faithfulness of the spies was honoured by God, and Rahab was faithful, too, and true to an engagement and also to the family idea as we see in these verses, "And before they had lain down, she went up to them upon the roof; and said to the men, I know that Jehovah has given you the land, and that the dread of you has fallen on us, and that all the inhabitants of the land faint because of you. For we have heard that Jehovah dried up the waters of the Red sea before you when ye came out of Egypt; and what ye did to the two kings of the Amorites that were beyond the Jordan, to Sihon and to Og, whom ye utterly destroyed. We heard [of it], and our heart melted, and there remained no more spirit in any man because of you; for Jehovah your God, he is God in the heavens above and on the earth beneath. And now,

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I pray you, swear to me by Jehovah, since I have dealt kindly with you, that ye will also deal kindly with my father's house, and give me a certain sign, that ye will let my father live, and my mother, and my brethren, and my sisters, and all that belong to them, and deliver our souls from death". It was remarkable faithfulness on her part, and the spies, too, who fulfilled the truth of the inheritance. God had promised to give it to them and was true to His word; it is especially for the young ones; the "you" (several times) is to be noted, it is the personal pronoun.

Rem. She had taken account of what she had heard.

J.T. Yes. It is the gospel, the gospel of truth, and by taking account of it we come into the good of it.

P.L. "Let my father live", and Rahab and all her family were saved alive; it is really the gospel.

J.T. Yes. The Old Testament is strewn with gospel texts showing the means of the way of salvation to men who were appreciative of the gospel.

Rem. Rahab was the kind of person that is produced by the gospel; she was righteous as having faith, and is commended in the New Testament.

J.T. She is mentioned in Hebrews 11.

Rem. Yes, and in James, too.

J.T. In each case she is spoken of as "Rahab the harlot".

Rem. She "did not perish along with the unbelieving, having received the spies in peace", Hebrews 11:31.

J.T. She was a disreputable person, yet she received the testimony that God was true and every man a liar; Romans 3:4.

Rem. She distinguished between what God did and what had been done by Israel.

J.T. Just so. There is much that is unsuitable

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to the truth in what is set out, so such a chapter as this should be noticed, as real results flowed from it. This was also seen in Jonah's history.

Rem. James speaks of her reception of the messengers, "and put them forth by another way" (James 2:25); faith is always active.

J.T. Yes; this is the gospel dispensation, and salvation is a very real matter, it is to be appropriated by everyone; we are to learn to be true; and to "repent and believe in the glad tidings", Mark 1:15. The note says, '(It refers to believing in the truth of the substance of a thing)'.

Ques. Does she show where she is, for she says, "Jehovah your God, he is God in the heavens above and on the earth beneath"?

J.T. Men say that we will have the earth, and leave heaven to God, but He claims both.

Rem. She does not ask anything for herself, but for the persons that they may live; such a person would value the inheritance of God.

J.T. "And the men said to her, We will be quit of this thine oath which thou hast made us swear. Behold, when we come into the land, thou shalt bind in the window this line of scarlet thread by which thou hast let us down; and thou shalt gather to thee in the house thy father, and thy mother, and thy brethren, and all thy father's household; and it shall be, that whoever shall go out of the doors of thy house into the street -- his blood shall be upon his head, and we shall be innocent; but every one who shall be with thee in the house, his blood shall be upon our head, if any hand be upon him. And if thou make known this our business, we will be quit of thine oath which thou hast made us swear. And she said, According to your words, so be it. And she sent them away, and they departed. And she bound the scarlet line in the window" (verses 17 - 21). That is, however disreputable she had been, she is true now.

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It is very important to be true to commitments, especially divine ones, for "God is faithful", 1 Corinthians 1:9.

Rem. In the sixth chapter it says of her, "she dwelt in the midst of Israel to this day", Joshua 6:25.

Rem. God often uses means like this to conceal and hide His people.

J.T. So the Reformation was a great testing time for people were concealing things, but God would have the truth in its entirety.

Rem. It says of Paul in Acts 15:41, "And he passed through Syria and Cilicia, confirming the assemblies".

J.T. Just so. "Every scripture is divinely inspired, and profitable for teaching, for conviction, for correction, for instruction in righteousness", 2 Timothy 3:16.

Rem. So in Acts 17:2 he "reasoned with them from the scriptures, opening and laying down that the Christ must have suffered and risen up from among the dead".

J.T. Just so. He was opening and laying down with authority. There is what is opened up, and also laying down, that is with authority; so, "Every scripture is divinely inspired, and profitable for teaching".

Ques. Are we to be on the look-out for such material as Rahab?

J.T. Just so. She was a sinner, and God saves sinners.

Rem. And adds them to His people as we see in Matthew 1:5.

J.T. There is plenty of material to establish the truth. Matthew is the gospel of the assembly to confirm the saints; it is all based on the history of the forty-two generations. So Rahab is a reliable person, in contrast with what she had been. It is a question of what you are doing now,

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Rem. She brings in wisdom and advice.

J.T. She put the spies "forth by another way", James 2:25. She wished to be confirmed; that was the 'life way', as over against the usual way. She gave them the right way.

Ques. How did she come to have flax?

J.T. In commerce, if selling goods, make sure you have the right goods, and be truthful.

Rem. Transparency comes to light early, like the repentant malefactor in Luke 23:40; he condemns the system he was connected with. So there is nothing uncertain about Rahab; she does not just assent, but is true to the test.

J.T. The truth was there, and, as now, we are searching for the truth. It is a question of what God is saying, "but let God be true", Romans 3:4.

Rem. "That thou mayest be justified when thou speakest, be clear when thou judgest", Psalm 51:4.

J.T. Just so.

Rem. In Colossians 1:21 it says, "And you, who once were alienated and enemies in mind by wicked works"; she was that.

J.T. So Colossians 1 goes on to say we are not to be "moved away from the hope of the glad tidings" (verse 23). There are about one hundred religious titles in Christendom; they are those who have moved away. She became a good and well-known sister.

Rem. It is an exercise about our relatives.

J.T. Relatives are much stressed in the Scriptures. There is "Paul's sister's son" in Acts 23:16.

Rem. Verse 3 must have been a test, when the king of Jericho sent to Rahab.

J.T. She stood firm, that all her family might be brought in; a very great service.

Rem. The gospels have an embracing effect.

J.T. All waited for Paul, a reliable man, though not always, for he had been an enemy, but as

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converted, he became fully reliable. The question is, How was he converted?

Rem. "Faithful is the word, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the first. But for this reason mercy was shewn me", 1 Timothy 1:15,16.

J.T. You could not get a better word.

Rem. Yes, God patiently waited for Paul.

J.T. How Paul spoke of his conversion, and how he sets out the gospel in the epistle to the Romans!

Ques. Do these family affections enter into the inheritance?

J.T. Verse 13 reads, "that ye will let my father live, and my mother, and my brethren, and my sisters, and all that belong to them, and deliver our souls from death"; see what a variety she has, and what a clear gospel testimony, for natural relationships are honoured by God.

Rem. She intended to have her house full.

Rem. Andrew "first finds his own brother Simon", John 1:41.

Rem. How near the gospel is to the assembly!

J.T. God is concerned most about the assembly.

Rem. She became a preacher like the woman of Samaria; she was not like Lot in Sodom, "he was as if he jested, in the sight of his sons-in-law", Genesis 19:14. She had moral power and was attractive in herself; we may not have power with our relatives, and they may be lost.

J.T. If worthy of being relatives they need to be saved, 'saved for glory', and then get them into the assembly, where people are loved and worth loving.

Rem. "Mary the mother of Jesus" and His brethren were all secured; Acts 1:14.

J.T. "Mary the mother of Jesus"; think of such an expression! How real the manhood of Jesus was.

Ques. Why did you stress the word 'saved'?

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J.T. Well, how many gospel preachers are there still here, and what are they going to preach?

Rem. Paul speaks of "my glad tidings", 2 Timothy 2:8.

J.T. "My gospel", that speaks of the divine selection made by the Lord. That is why Paul was so needed by the Lord; he was so useful, and had such sufferings, such imprisonments, such severity, in order to be a witness. What treasures we have in earthen vessels; the vessel has to be broken that the light may shine; (2 Corinthians 4:7).

Ques. Had Paul this in mind with the jailor in Acts 16?

J.T. Yes, indeed; and the Lord says to him in Acts 9, "Saul, Saul, why dost thou persecute me? ... I am Jesus, whom thou persecutest". He puts a great emphasis on the personal pronouns.

Rem. In verse 19 the spies speak of the salvation in Rahab's house.

J.T. Yes; she had to be true, and she would get what she wanted. The Lord is pressing the question of the house.

Rem. It says in verse 15, "for her house was upon the city-wall, and she dwelt upon the wall". She would be very separate.

J.T. Young people go into worldly houses and get damaged.

P.L. Deuteronomy 22:8 says, "When thou buildest a new house, thou shalt make a parapet for thy roof, that thou bring not blood upon thy house, if anyone should in any wise fall from it".

J.T. That implies that worldly things are contained in households.

Rem. There was genuineness seen in Rahab. Many lack this feature.

J.T. Those who are reliable visit and see if people are genuine. All of us in fellowship are concerned as to what is in every household.

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Ques. Why does she mention "my father's house" in verse 12?

J.T. Because she valued him and had respect for him, a very needed thing.

Rem. If the Lord gets a foothold in a house, He will not rest until He has it all.

J.T. Just so.

Rem. It says in Acts 16:32, "And they spoke to him the word of the Lord, with all that were in his house".

Ques. She begins with the Red sea in verse 10. Is that the beginning, deliverance from Egypt? In verse 9 she says, "I know that Jehovah has given you the land".

J.T. Noah "prepared an ark for the saving of his house", Hebrews 11:7. It is the same principle from the first day until now.

Rem. The first verse of this chapter shows that; it speaks of "Joshua the son of Nun", 'Nun' means continuance.

J.T. What a first day for her! She would never forget it; every day got better.

Rem. Her faith confirms the brethren in verse 24.

J.T. Just so, a very fine verse.

Rem. They convey her testimony to Joshua.

J.T. So it reads (verse 22), "And they went, and came to the mountain, and remained there three days, until the pursuers had returned; and the pursuers sought them all the way, and found them not. And the two men returned and came down from the mountain, and went over and came to Joshua the son of Nun, and related to him everything that had happened to them" That is it: "everything that happened to them". It goes on to say, "and they said to Joshua, Of a surety Jehovah has given the whole land into our hands, and even all the inhabitants

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of the land faint because of us", that is, the brethren, those in fellowship, really in the assembly, worth being with. It is a great thing and very prominent in this chapter.

Rem. You mean it brings out the place the fellowship has.

Rem. She became a worshipper "in spirit and truth", John 4:23,24. It is a question of being inwardly affected; Rahab was that.

J.T. Just so, and that such a woman should be turned into a minister of the gospel. She is a most remarkable woman.

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THE TABERNACLE

Exodus 25:1 - 9; John 1:14 - 18; 2 Corinthians 5:1 - 5;2 Peter 1:12 - 21

J.T. The thought is to look into these scriptures as to the tabernacle, the divine dwelling among the saints. So therefore it is proposed to look at the types; then at the Lord Jesus dwelling amongst us, and then at Paul and Peter, confirming all that. As to the tabernacle, we could go further, into the book of the Revelation, where the tabernacle of God is seen among men, not even among the Jews (we shall see that later, in the millennium), but among men. So all that is to be in mind in the places where the worship of God is recognised, and the work of God in this time, first as to the types, then as to the assembly, the great dwelling place of God, not in the air, or in houses, but in persons, men and women formed into an assembly; God is there. Then we come to the furnishings and the manners in the assembly.

Rem. Moses, in his song in Exodus 15, speaks prophetically of this, "the place that thou, Jehovah, hast made thy dwelling", Exodus 15:17.

J.T. That is clearly a reference to it. But we must come to the New Testament, Paul and Peter, the ones who have been used to set out the truth as to the assembly. When we are caught up, we shall be an immense number, but God knows each one.

Rem. In Ephesians 2:21,22 it refers to "all [the] building fitted together increases to a holy temple in the Lord; in whom ye also are built together for a habitation of God in [the] Spirit".

J.T. That also clearly relates to our subject, and of course, we shall be glad to hear all who can help. The number here is comparatively great, and we are very grateful to God for His goodness to us.

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Ques. Does what you are calling attention to enhance the Spirit's service?

J.T. It is the time of the Spirit, we could almost say; the Spirit's day. He was sent down here to occupy till the Lord comes. He carries on God's service according to His own principles, in order to save us from what is around.

Rem. "That I may dwell among them" (verse 8) is a very precious thought.

J.T. I think that.

Rem. If we desire to take up the service of God, we shall find copious conditions amongst the saints.

J.T. Yes, but the assembly contemplates material, for it is the dwelling of God, and He garnishes it, as He garnished the heavens. Our children are brought up, and should learn what it means.

Rem. It says, "According to all that I shall shew thee, the pattern of the tabernacle ... even so shall ye make it" (verse 9).

J.T. Just so; "the pattern".

Ques. Does 1 Corinthians 14:24,25 apply, "But if all prophesy, and some unbeliever or [simple] person come in, he is convicted of all, he is judged of all; the secrets of his heart are manifested; and thus, falling upon [his] face, he will do homage to God, reporting that God is indeed amongst you"?

J.T. That is the word coming in reference to persons, those coming in as we have here. Tomorrow we shall fall upon our faces, to worship God, beginning with the Lord's supper.

Rem. Because God dwells in the assembly.

Ques. Would "God is indeed amongst you" have in mind how we come into this?

J.T. So God with complacency sees that; brothers and sisters and young children would be affected in view of His coming in. We come in first, and make way for Him.

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Rem. "Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power", Psalm 110:3.

J.T. We have a book called 'My willing people' (see J.T., N.S. Volume 32).

Rem. You have raised an important point, that adjustment must be in relation to the Supper.

J.T. That is how it stands. It is now some one hundred and fifty years and still we are getting help to regulate us, one with the other. God is ready to come at any time. The Lord Jesus is the Mediator. He is the One to carry on mediation.

Rem. Moses was typical of that. He had to arrange and control it all, though the people brought the things to him.

J.T. Christ is the Mediator; not the Jew, but the Man.

Rem. "And Moses saw all the work, and behold, they had done it as Jehovah had commanded -- so had they done [it]; and Moses blessed them", Exodus 39:43.

J.T. It was all done in order and all finished, and at the end of the book God had come in among them.

Rem. So in Psalm 132:14 it says, "This is my rest for ever; here will I dwell, for I have desired it".

J.T. God rests complacently among His people. "The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of the Christ?" (1 Corinthians 10:16). That is the Lord's supper.

Rem. "That they bring me a heave-offering; of everyone whose heart prompteth him", Exodus 25:2.

J.T. Yes, it is the working of the heart. Corinthians is the most prominent part of the service as to the assembly. And John says, "I became in the Spirit on the Lord's day", Revelation 1:10. That was the day, but the assembly is the vessel.

Rem. "And they shall make me a sanctuary", Exodus 25:8.

J.T. A dwelling or habitation.

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Rem. They would secure conditions for God to dwell there.

J.T. And order is a great part of it.

Ques. Is the thought of order in 1 Corinthians?

J.T. The word 'order' is a very prominent word. That epistle peculiarly stresses the service of God. In Acts 20:7 it says, "we being assembled to break bread"; that is when the service of God begins. We begin with Exodus as a type, for God speaks in types.

Rem. The word in verse 8 is "that I may dwell among them", not with them.

J.T. It implies the freedom or latitude that God gives His people. Christendom is rebuked in this scripture. Exodus, and all that we have read, belongs to the service of God. So "I became in the Spirit on the Lord's day" is the kind of state we should be in on the Lord's day. All who have the Spirit should be glad to be there on the Lord's day.

Rem. In 2 Corinthians 6:16 it says, "I will dwell among them, and walk among them".

J.T. Walking is outside, dwelling is inside; it is where He loves to have us with Him.

Rem. "Be separated, saith [the] Lord, and touch not [what is] unclean", 2 Corinthians 6:17; we should know what we have come out of.

J.T. "And I will be their God, and they shall be to me a people",2 Corinthians 6:16.

Ques. Is the state of Christendom the result of not taking account of the pattern?

J.T. It was in my mind all day that our meetings should be patterned on these scriptures, and on the New Testament, especially John's gospel, for it is marked by it; even that our hymns should be properly sung, and so on.

Rem. It says in John 14:23, "If anyone love me, he will keep my word".

J.T. So in the number of men here, the masculine

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idea is prominent; the sisters are to learn in silence, though they have been adjusted lately!

Rem. Outwardly there has been deterioration from the pattern, but we have the divine instructions here.

J.T. God is dwelling among us, and we have the great servants, Paul and Peter, telling us what to do; Paul in 2 Corinthians 5, and Peter in his second epistle (2 Peter 1:13), "But I account it right, as long as I am in this tabernacle", that is his own body, and then in the next verse, "my tabernacle", a word for all of us, "knowing that the putting off of my tabernacle is speedily to take place, as also our Lord Jesus Christ has manifested to me".

Rem. There is the need for instruction; it is to be handed down.

J.T. That is just the word. The children should know and think of the breaking of bread, and should be told of the order that belongs to it.

Rem. What Jehovah says to Moses in Exodus 34:27 is meant to impress them, "Write thee these words; for after the tenor of these words have I made a covenant with thee and with Israel".

J.T. Very good.

Ques. Is the tabernacle meant to be a representation of God's thoughts? Peter refers to his body, and God should be expressed in each of us.

J.T. Peter could so speak because the Lord had told him he should suffer martyrdom; so he says "speedily", it was not long, he was not an old man.

We need to think of that, the possibility of the Lord taking anyone at any time. At the same time there is the translation, and we are looking for that.

Rem. In 1 Thessalonians 4:4 Paul speaks of the believer's body, "that each of you know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honour".

J.T. So that the vessel there is the body.

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Ques. Is the tabernacle the same thought as the body?

J.T. Just so, it is. But the word 'tabernacle' is convenient to use. Of the Lord, John says, "the Word became flesh, and dwelt (see note, 'tabernacled') among us", John 1:14.

Rem. The expression "established in the present truth" is impressive.

J.T. I think so, and it accounts for the freshness of the truth; it is to keep us fresh. So the Lord Jesus says twice over in John 14 (verses 18 and 28), that "I am coming to you", that is, not at any special time, it is at any time; it is not 'I come' but "I am coming".

Rem. That word in John follows on the word as to the coming of the Spirit; in the Spirit, conditions will be right for His coming.

J.T. I believe that will be so till the last minute. God has control of His own affairs. It may be now, or soon, or it may be delayed a little. Pleasing God is the great thing now.

Ques. What about John 1:14?

J.T. "Tabernacled" is a reference to the Lord's own body. He tabernacled among the brethren, but it was His own body that was in mind.

Rem. The tabernacle is a greater type than the temple.

J.T. It is. It involves the thought of dwelling.

Rem. The temple is a static thought, but the tabernacle is movable.

J.T. Just so; at times His own would come together, and God was among them; even two or three, He would be content with that, "there am I in the midst of them", Matthew 18:20.

Rem. There are not only the movements of the saints, but of divine Persons Themselves.

J.T. "And has raised us up together, and has made us sit down together", Ephesians 2:6.

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W.S. I am thinking of the word 'speedily' (verse 14).

J.T. A good word. You and I are about the same age, and can apply the word to ourselves.

Rem. It is a word for us all; also the word in 1 Corinthians 15:52, "in the twinkling of an eye", and what will be done in it!

J.T. Read it, please.

Rem. "Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all fall asleep, but we shall all be changed, in an instant, in [the] twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet".

J.T. The "twinkling of an eye" is very simple, the act of the eye and what enters into it. Clearly that passage peculiarly applies to the Lord's coming and then to the Lord's supper, to keep us fresh.

Rem. "Quickly" is His last word; Revelation 22:20.

J.T. "Yea, I come quickly", you can see it is linked up with the service of God in the assembly.

Ques. Are we to know what transformation "according to the same image" is, in the service of the assembly (2 Corinthians 3:18)?

J.T. How many times we have said it in the Lord's day morning meeting! It is the time of change; it involves the saints and the Lord, too.

Ques. Has "of his fulness we all have received" (John 1:16) any bearing on our service in the assembly?

J.T. The fulness there is what Christ is in the familiar way in which the Lord comes in among us; it is a time for the assembly; it is Christ's assembly; it is Christ that died for the assembly, a wonderful thought, to be ready for the dwelling and His coming into the assembly.

Rem. Ephesians 2:22 says, "ye also are built together for a habitation of God in the Spirit".

J.T. That is the same idea.

Rem. The reference to the Word dwelling among us is in the past tense, so also is verse 16, "we all

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have received". Does that not make it only apostolic?

J.T. Dwelling among us is an historical fact, and that fact remains in its bearing now.

Rem. In Colossians 1:19 it says, "for in him all the fulness of the Godhead was pleased to dwell".

J.T. It does not say what "the fulness" was.

Rem. It dwelt in His Person as tabernacling here.

J.T. Now as to 2 Corinthians 5, "For we know" is the knowledge that belongs to the apostles, but it is characteristic of everyone who has the Spirit. A 'house' is the same idea as 'tabernacle', "a house not made with hands"; it is what we are coming into presently. "We know", it is those who have the Spirit know this, for He is the earnest. So the word 'house' here is the general thought of God's habitation, and it has a collective character to it. The passage is intended to accustom us to the heavenly side of the truth. It is what we are coming into.

Rem. It is "our earthly tabernacle house", a collective thought, over against 2 Peter 1 where it definitely refers to his own body.

J.T. "We have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens". I would think that enlarges out in the mind as to the assembly.

Rem. So the footnote to verse 2 refers to '(out of)', that is, out of heaven now, in relation to our own bodies, in keeping with what is coming down.

J.T. Just so; so the city is seen "coming down out of the heaven from God", Revelation 21:10.

Rem. The Spirit came down and He makes all fresh and new.

J.T. "Out of heaven" implies origin; the coming season will be earthly blessing, but what we are going on with is the assembly; we are to be taken up with it, and to be intelligent, and know what to do,

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especially on the Lord's day, and each day as it comes: "For the priest's lips should keep knowledge" (Malachi 2:7); we are made intelligent by God.

Rem. If we have any lack of "ardently desiring" this change (verse 2), the ministry would greatly enhance that in us. The Spirit would form a faculty in us for these ardent feelings.

J.T. For the last sixteen or seventeen years the Spirit of God has been working for this. So that at the Supper we do not speak to the Father immediately. In olden days the bread was not broken for a long time, and so on, but now it is different; God is helping us; the three-day meetings are of great help because the truth is enlarged and worked out in detail.

Ques. Why is it "we know" and "we have" here?

J.T. It is to intelligent persons; Paul speaks to such.

Rem. Paul at Thessalonica, in Acts 17:3, was "opening and laying down" the truth.

J.T. Just so; opening up first, and then laying down; so that, maybe, we get something by the end of the meeting!

Rem. The Lord gathered the crowds and fed them.

J.T. How many were there? "About five thousand men, besides women and children", Matthew 14:21. The sisters have to come to it, but the men are more important as divine material; it was "five thousand men".

Ques. In Acts 2:41 we have "there were added in that day about three thousand souls". Would that be more general for the working out of the assembly?

J.T. "Souls" speak of intimate feelings.

Rem. We speak of 'soulless' people. They have hearts, but 'soul' is a word by itself.

Rem. In John 6:10 also we have the men referred to "in number about five thousand".

J.T. That is it; the men predominate. 'Souls'

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is different. The soul is an organ we have in a moral sense. A doctor cannot dissect out the soul!

Rem. In Genesis 2:7, "Man became a living soul" in view of response.

J.T. Just so.

Rem. The whole of 1 Corinthians and 2 Corinthians is written in view of that.

J.T. And also that the dear brethren may become better acquainted with the dwelling-place of God.

Ques. Is the zeal Paul speaks of in verse 9 a matter of the soul?

J.T. 'Zeal', that is the word.

Ques. What about "the crowd of names" in Acts 1:15, "about a hundred and twenty"?

J.T. That was a number that was of value at that time. Learn to count the brethren; they may not be of the same value as the number.

Rem. We are always to include the children.

J.T. Yes; if they are converted and have the Spirit. They can come in at ten or even less.

Rem. At Ephesus in Acts 19:7 it says, "And all the men were about twelve".

J.T. It was meant to be that number, which refers to administration. God is looking for administrators.

Rem. The largeness of what you are referring to is very attractive as to the glad tidings. We should think of it not only in word, but in deed.

J.T. How we shall be greeted when we get to heaven!

Rem. It is a wonderful word here in verse 4, "that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life".

J.T. That is it, and in John's gospel the great thought is life. John 3:16, "may ... have life eternal" is the great quantity of it.

Ques. What does "the earnest of the Spirit" (verse 5) refer to?

J.T. It is the quality. It may be ten times as

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much in one as compared with another, but the thing is there in each.

Ques. Is it the thought of a token, a part of the original thing?

J.T. Heaven looks down and sees it, and says, I have that! It is a question of quality; and to bring the children up to the standard is the great thing.

Rem. 2 Corinthians 3:18 takes in quantity and quality, "But we all"; but in chapter 4:18, what is "not seen", is our outlook in view of quality.

J.T. The first thing is the glory of the Lord. Can I look at that? It requires power in the soul. When He comes we shall not be hesitant, "we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is" (1 John 3:2), but it also says, "all the tribes of the land shall wail because of him", Revelation 1:7.

Rem. As we look at one another we see the transformation.

J.T. That is it; so that we are not brothers and sisters, but as we proceed in the service we come to the thought of divine Persons, the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit; and Christ as the Mediator; the sisters as a distinct feminine thought goes, and the assembly comes in.

Rem. So it says here in verse 5, "Now he that has wrought us for this very thing is God".

J.T. It is God operating in view of it, and the Lord Jesus, the Minister of the sanctuary, and the Holy Spirit who will go up with the assembly. Then there is the thousand years to come in. Peter says, "one day with the Lord is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day" (2 Peter 3:8); that is the divine way of reckoning!

Rem. We should be occupied with building, not with destruction in the world.

J.T. Well, there is some order in the world; God is looking after things, though He is hiding His face from the Jew.

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Rem. The Lord impressed the disciples that the Spirit was coming, and now the Spirit is impressing us with the Lord's return.

J.T. Each divine Person is doing His part; to us there is one God.

Ques. Have you a word on 2 Peter for us?

J.T. "The present truth" (verse 12) is as to the Spirit. The Spirit is asserting Himself now.

Rem. The thought of 'tabernacle' is a movable idea.

J.T. That is it. They were going somewhere, but the time came when they were settled.

Rem. "The present truth" is what should occupy us now.

J.T. That is it. The gospel came first, then the truth of the assembly; this has been so for fifty years or so, and it is getting brighter and brighter, and more and better understood.

Rem. The Levites and the whole camp of the children of Israel began to move at once when the priestly trumpet sounded; when God is moving, all are to move; so Peter says we are to be "established in the present truth". So the cloud moving decided their encampments.

J.T. That was seen in the books of Moses, especially Numbers. We should all be reading the Pentateuch, and then Paul's writings. Paul was a great architect.

Rem. Peter speaks of him in this epistle (chapter 3:15) as "our beloved brother Paul". Rem. Hebrews 13:17 reads, "Obey your leaders, and be submissive; for they watch over your souls as those that shall give account; that they may do this with joy, and not groaning, for this would be unprofitable for you".

J.T. That is a word alluding to the assembly as travelling on through the wilderness; the word is always available.

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Rem. It is fitting that in the levitical character of things the second day of the week is marked by prayer.

J.T. Just so, it is fitting.

Ques. Would prophecy under the power of the Holy Spirit imply that the meeting for prophetic ministry should follow early in the week?

J.T. That is a question of experience, and where we learn to take things up with God in this way.

Ques. The Lord had shown Peter something here (verse 14), and likewise Paul. Should not the assembly be the same?

J.T. That is in mind in the reference to the "earthly tabernacle house".

Rem. Paul says, "But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day should overtake you as a thief", 1 Thessalonians 5:4. The saints are to become increasingly intelligent as the translation becomes imminent.

J.T. The hour of our translation is at hand. How little we take it in! But God is not anxious that any should perish; we must not forget that.

Rem. Peter speaks of the "scope of prophecy" in verse 20.

J.T. Yes, and many are taking up the Old Testament to read. Do you here?

Rem. Yes, indeed.

J.T. The brethren are taking it up as much as the New.

Rem. The "power of the Holy Spirit" that Peter refers to in verse 21 is available to us, too.

J.T. It is that whereby we get intelligence in questioning and answering. The care meetings are also very good, as the brethren exchange thoughts; and three-day meetings are good, too.

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SPIRITUAL DEVELOPMENT IN THE WILDERNESS

Numbers 1:1 - 19; Numbers 2:1,2; Numbers 4:1 - 3

J.T. I suppose the main line of thought in Numbers is the wilderness. It is the wilderness we are treading. We have not reached rest, "There remains then a sabbatism to the people of God", Hebrews 4:9. We read from Numbers because of the idea of individuality in chapter 1 in numbering the people. In chapter 2 we have responsibility and local unity. In chapter 1 we have names and also the thought of age, all of which will come out as we speak together; and then in chapter 4, the effect of age, how it develops growth; so we have thirty years of age, as compared with twenty years in chapter 1, which points to growth, whether individual, or local, or unitedly, or however we are set up according to the standard of our fathers' houses.

The first thing to note is the individual history and responsibility, and so the persons who were to be witnesses are mentioned, and for each tribe; there is to be no mistake; and then in chapter 2 the standard is spoken of, the local responsibility; and in the third scripture read, the responsibility of service when we have the Spirit, and also the increase, individually or locally, that is in each person, because God gives the increase. Chapter 2 points to local gatherings, and whether there is growth there, either numerically or spiritually.

W.W. It involves every person taking a place at the Supper, and there are questions raised with us all as to these things.

J.T. This book speaks of all that, especially of

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levitical service, and of growth, what we spoke of as twenty years old, which is having the Spirit, or as thirty years old, which is ability to serve and worship God, as having power in his soul.

Rem. Twenty years seems to have a military setting.

J.T. Young people should take account of what is current, and take their place in defence of the truth, to walk in the truth as having the Spirit.

Rem. We cannot have any part in the truth till we have taken up this side.

J.T. Certainly, and no place in the assembly of God. As having the Spirit he has power in his soul, and if not, ask for Him, and tell the brethren, and they will soon see.

Rem. The "panoply of God" in Ephesians 6 would be the full end; whereas in Romans 13:12 it is the "armour of light".

J.T. Very good.

F.W.K. The second year would speak of experience and the Holy Spirit being received; (chapter 1:1).

J.T. Just so, so the numbering in chapter 1 is not spoken of as from infancy but from twenty years, "all that go forth to military service". One year has elapsed and there is something there to be relied upon. If one does not defend the truth he is not fit for fellowship.

P.L. Are we to know our pedigree?

J.T. That is, where you come from, your ancestry, and of what kind it is. How emphasised it is in 1 Chronicles; whether it is just socially, or spiritually; that is this first numbering.

Rem. So verse 17 speaks of "these men who are expressed by their names".

J.T. It is your father, and what he is doing, and what he was doing.

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P.L. "These were the potters, and those that abode among plantations and enclosures: there they dwelt with the king for his work", 1 Chronicles 4:23.

J.T. Very good.

P.L. And we get "the craftsmen" in verse 14, and "the byssus-workers" in verse 21.

W.W. That is very helpful, for the young as well as those that are older.

J.T. It is if a person has been proved to be such, but if he is not walking according to right principles he needs watching. All this leads to eldership and so forth; this is Numbers, in a contrary scene in every respect.

Rem. Young men today in facing unions are called out in defence of the truth.

J.T. Yes; especially in the U.S.A. The young men especially are in need of it.

S.E.E. "Take thy share in suffering", 2 Timothy 2:3. It is what they are committed to.

J.T. Timothy was a typical young man.

F.W.K. In 1 Corinthians 1 they are saints by divine calling (see note to verse 2).

J.T. Yes, "with all that in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both theirs and ours", 1 Corinthians 1:2.

Rem. "Of him are ye in Christ Jesus" (1 Corinthians 1:30) would be tracing it back to God.

J.T. Yes, to God. "In Christ Jesus" brings out the anointing, too. "Jesus Christ" would be His manhood.

Rem. That would help the Corinthians to face their responsibilities.

J.T. Just so.

J.S.E. What about conscription in this chapter for the testimony?

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J.T. That a young man should accept, for the testimony is for the military idea to go forth to war.

G.C.S. It says in verse 3 "go forth" first, and then "ye shall number them".

J.T. Good.

G.C.S. But what about being numbered?

J.T. In this first chapter they are to be ready to go forth to war, and to stand by the brethren in matters that need help and care, as in the care meeting. A brother is not numbered as a troubler, but as a man of peace.

F.W.K. There is no individualism in this chapter.

J.T. No; but "according to their polls; from twenty years and upward" is the individual side; and twelve "men that shall stand with you" refers to taking part in the assembly.

Rem. It says "according to their hosts".

J.T. The book of Numbers in the early days was the wilderness, after they had passed through the Red sea, that is from Egypt to Canaan.

Ques. Would you encourage the young men to be at the care meeting?

J.T. Yes, prayerfully, not as criticising the elder brethren. The Levite has relief from bearing arms or working, because he begins work at thirty.

Rem. These men were "those summoned of the assembly" (verse 16, and see note).

J.T. That is it. The Lord selected a little child in Matthew 18 to use as a pattern.

Rem. "Leading men among the brethren" in Acts 15:22, would allow for distinctiveness.

J.T. Acts 15, very good. We have to discern the want of leadership in the true sense, not twenty years old, but thirty years, not only having the Holy Spirit, but having developed in it. Manhood is much before us, and we are continuing the subject of manhood next year in our city readings.

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P.L. Would "thirty" imply weight and influence through maturity?

J.T. Influence is a very good word. Eldership comes through influence.

Ques. Why is this ten years difference?

J.T. I thought the Lord Himself was the type of thirty years of age.

P.L. "Jesus himself was beginning to be about thirty years old", Luke 3:23.

J.T. That is it. The real Person.

A.W. David reduced the age to twenty years in 1 Chronicles 23:24 - 27.

J.T. He was short of men, so to speak.

Rem. There was an addition of light and love connected with David; it brings out this young manhood as serviceable.

J.T. That is one of the best things to bring out, this as to David; "For of old, in the days of David", it says in Nehemiah 12:46, and it must apply now. We have come to the young men, and they must learn by experience. The Psalms is a great book of experience.

-- .P. In Leviticus 27:3 we have the valuation of the male "from twenty years old even unto sixty years old", starting at twenty as here in chapter 1, but thirty years old is not mentioned.

J.T. It is a question of the value of a man.

-- .P. Twenty years seems a definite mark.

J.T. Twenty-five years old is mentioned in Numbers 8:24, but not so much as thirty.

Rem. There is much to encourage us in the young men today.

J.T. Yes, and never forget the young women. The word 'Man' means both male and female (Genesis 1:27); so they should both be learning and getting on in the truth.

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Rem. "That our sons may be as plants grown up in their youth", Psalm 144:12.

J.T. What about the daughters? They are mentioned, too.

Rem. "Our daughters as corner-columns, sculptured after the fashion of a palace", Psalm 144:12. It would give the idea of maturity in the young.

J.T. The children are mentioned too, "like olive-plants round about thy table", Psalm 128:3.

J.O.S. "The daughters of Zelophehad speak right", Numbers 27:7.

J.T. Excellent, and not only well, but right things morally.

W.W. Why is the valuation of fifty shekels of silver for the males of twenty to sixty years in Leviticus 27?

J.T. It is a question of valuation. The old men lose their 'caste', and are regarded as being passed by, but Moses valued them; they were as good as ever!

P.L. Their value was not diminishing!

J.T. Caleb in the book of Joshua was a similar man, though much younger than Moses. In verse 18 of our chapter they "gathered the whole assembly together on the first of the second month"; then in the second chapter the local assembly is in mind, "The children of Israel shall encamp everyone by his standard, with the ensign of their father's house; round about the tent of meeting, afar off, opposite to it shall they encamp". One has to learn that after receiving his individual responsibility, he has to take up his local responsibility.

-- .C. The "princes" are mentioned in this chapter.

J.T. Quite so.

-- .C. What place have they in this book?

J.T. A very great place in chapter 7.

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-- .C. The feature of mobility in view of the wilderness position, would this be so?

J.T. There would be princely power to go forth to war, and to defend the truth. He might be a poor man in other ways.

F.W.K. Princes represent those who take on responsibility.

J.T. Yes; it involves accumulating power by the younger people, so that 'able' is the word, able to do things.

Rem. "Princes of the tribes of their fathers", in chapter 1:16, would mean family feeling.

J.T. Yes; and to learn to stand in his place, and not to go out of it.

F.W.K. At Corinth they were inclined to make much of those who were not princely.

J.T. Very good.

F.W.K. Quality is seen in spiritual leadership.

J.T. Read 1 Corinthians 2:6, and on to verse 10, please.

F.W.K. "But we speak wisdom among the perfect; but wisdom not of this world, nor of the rulers of this world, who come to nought. But we speak God's wisdom in [a] mystery, that hidden [wisdom] which God had predetermined before the ages for our glory: which none of the princes of this age knew, (for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory;) but according as it is written, Things which eye has not seen, and ear not heard, and which have not come into man's heart, which God has prepared for them that love him, but God has revealed to us by [his] Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God".

J.T. The "princes of this age" were not the princes here; they knew nothing.

K.McK. Jacob is an outstanding example of a prince, in Genesis 48, in contrast to these "princes of this age".

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J.T. He says, "I know, my son, I know", Genesis 48:19. He knew better than Joseph; it shows that Jacob had developed fully in the princely idea.

Rem. Jehovah started with a prince in Moses.

J.T. Just so.

Ques. What does Aaron stand for?

J.T. The system. It is now brought down to us, the prophet and the priest; instead of Moses and Aaron it is in Christ Himself, no one else.

S.C. Is it worked out in the twelve men at Ephesus receiving the Spirit, in Acts 19, and later, in chapter 20, Paul calling over the elders of Ephesus?

J.T. Very good, showing that Paul was ahead of everything. It is a very good question to ask young people, "Did ye receive the Holy Spirit when ye had believed?" Ask them, and tell the brethren, and if they have not the Holy Spirit they will be in their place wrongfully. No one without the Holy Spirit can be in the assembly.

W.W. To be born anew is one thing, and to have the indwelling Spirit another thing.

J.T. So it says in John 3:5, "Except anyone be born of water and of Spirit".

W.W. There is always a supply of grace and power for all tests.

J.T. Yes, and the tests will come, but defend the truth at all costs!

R.G.B. Are those who take the lead ultimately, those who, while young, take on responsibility?

J.T. Yes; and the Lord will promote them to universal leadership. You are not to confine yourself to your local meeting; the continent and other places have a great need.

Rem. Timothy was taken for a long tour by Paul. His influence thereby became widened. God was extending His empire.

J.T. Quite so.

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P.L. Jabez prays, "Enlarge my border", 1 Chronicles 4:10.

J.T. He is an excellent leader. His mother had something to do with it; she was a real "mother in Israel" He also says, "that thou wouldest keep me from evil, that it may not grieve me!", 1 Chronicles 4:10

P.L. "And God brought about what he had requested".

J.T. He is an excellent example for young people, "for the same Lord of all is rich towards all that call upon him" (Romans 10:12); and we can call at all times.

G.C.S. The Levites encamped around the tabernacle, but the children of Israel were to be "round about the tent of meeting, afar off, opposite to it shall they encamp", Numbers 2:2. They were a protection to keep the evil afar off.

J.T. The children of Israel here were not the Levites.

G.C.S. The Levites were encamped as a protection to the tabernacle, near to it, "that there come not wrath upon the assembly of the children of Israel" (chapter 1:53), and when they "set forth" in chapter 2:17, the camps of the children of Israel were a protection "afar off" to the tabernacle and the camp of the Levites "in the midst" of them. Is it a universal view of the Levites here?

J.T. Almost universal; it is the Levites in relation to the tent of meeting.

G.C.S. We may speak of the Levites disparagingly; we are to value and respect them.

J.T. Yes; we may ask especially whether the saints have respect for the levitical service; a very strong word is used of them, involving labour (see note to chapter 4:3); it is not ordinary service, it is real labour, arduous work.

W.W. What about chapter 4?

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J.T. The idea of "thirty years old" is mentioned in regard to the Kohathites first (verse 3); that is their service is the most spiritual, and involves priestly power. It is more spiritual than the average Levite. Kohath is the leading Levite; this is to bring out the special quality in Levites, almost bordering on priestly power.

W.W. "It is most holy"; that would help us to take up the service in a priestly way.

J.T. Notice the cloth of blue that the Kohathites brought; the blue would speak of heaven, "Higher and higher yet"; the first day of the week we go higher, and do not go out by the same door as we came in, Ezekiel 46:9.

K.McK. Why does it say in verse 3, "even unto fifty years old"?

J.T. It is the idea of the average age of the Levites; in 1 Chronicles 23:27 it is "from twenty years old and upward", there is no limit. They are spiritual, able to take on things spiritually; they are "priests of God and of the Christ", Revelation 20:6. So the first day of the week begins, and goes on to praise to the Father; we begin with ourselves as brethren, and then the Lord in the emblems, and go on, and the blue is sure to be seen.

W.W. Though old there is fulness and freshness.

J.T. Yes. Keep fresh, even if old. "What she could she has done", Mark 14:8. There is to be no burden of reproach because of age.

W.W. All that enters into "the service" (verse 3).

J.T. So that "from thirty years old and upward even unto fifty years old", all that enters into the service, real service, as the note says, '(labour, suffering, military service)' not idling or taking holidays!

G.C.S. They never get beyond fifty; sons are to be always ready for service.

J.T. 'Ready', that is the word.

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G.C.S. Paul says, "Salute Prisca and Aquila, my fellow-workmen in Christ Jesus (who for my life staked their own neck)", Romans 16:3,4. They would be an example of this.

J.T. Yes. Each is mentioned the same number of times. So it is to be an exercise, if a brother is working hard in the Lord's service, that his wife takes the same part.

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THE DISTINCTION OF JOHN'S WRITINGS

1 John 5

J.T. I was thinking today of the distinction that should be drawn between John's writings and the writings of the other evangelists, Matthew, Mark and Luke. They gave the truth in an orderly way, as it grew out of the Lord's ministry. Mark was the ministry of the gospel. It was the ministry in general in Luke. "The glad tidings" would be the same as the gospel. John was evidently taken up with the great errors that came in after the gospel was inaugurated. He deals with the Person of Christ, and in the epistles, the continuance from that; that is, these three epistles and the Revelation. There were, according to the best information available, several errors as to the Person of Christ. The other apostles expired, and several errors arose. It looks as if the Lord had reserved John for such an event. He says to Peter (John 21:22), "If I will that he abide until I come, what is that to thee? Follow thou me". So that the Lord evidently had a reserve in view of error arising through the devil's work throughout the first century.

I make these remarks as touching now on John's first epistle. We can see references to traces of the errors as to the Person of Christ. They have arisen as a development. Here we have, not a development, but "That which was from the beginning" (1 John 1:1), and stress is laid on the humanity of Christ, "that which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes; that which we contemplated, and our hands handled, concerning the word of life". Note that it is "that which" not 'He which', a neuter thought, as referring to the Lord's Person. "That which was from the beginning, that which we have

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heard, which we have seen with our eyes; that which we contemplated, and our hands handled, concerning the word of life; (and the life has been manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and report to you the eternal life, which was with the Father, and has been manifested to us)"; stressing the idea of life, something that can be seen, and heard, and handled.

The error that arose evidently had to do with the Person of Christ in His humanity. In the gospel of John it is "In the beginning was the Word" (John 1:1), but here it is, "That which was from the beginning", pointing out the Lord Jesus in His humanity, that is, from the incarnation. The thought of eternal life runs through to the end of the last chapter, and eternal life is to bring out the Lord's deity.

A.H. In reference to the truth of the Person of Christ, has John in mind to impart to our hearts the substantial character of Christianity?

J.T. 'Substantial' is the word. A visible thing, which can be seen and handled. It is remarkable that the Lord Jesus can be seen in that light, especially in view of error which has come down to the present time, from the beginning of Christendom.

E.S.H. It was that order of man.

J.T. Yes, not simply life, "That which was from the beginning, that which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes; that which we contemplated, and our hands handled, concerning the word of life (and the life has been manifested, and we", that is the apostles, "have seen, and bear witness, and report to you the eternal life", the article before it makes it more tangible, "which was with the Father", that is, not in heaven, but with the Father, "and has been manifested to us:) that which we have seen and heard we report to you" (it shows that the saints were especially in the apostle's

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mind), "that ye also may have fellowship with us; and our fellowship [is] indeed with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. And these things write we to you that your joy may be full", 1 John 1:1 - 4. So that the saints partake in the apostles' ministry (and he has the apostles in mind -- they are the 'us' in verse 3), and the saints are to have fellowship with the apostles. So that the apostles have a certain place between the divine Persons and the saints. The apostles have fellowship with the Father and the Son, and we with them.

Ques. Is there a link between eternal life and being begotten of God?

J.T. The phrase being "begotten of God" (1 John 3:9) is not that believers are born again. It is a fulfilment of the thought in the gospel of John.

Rem. I was thinking of the thought of that life expressed in the saints, as derived from God Himself and coming into His family.

J.T. So John says, "See what love the Father has given to us, that we should be called the children of God", 1 John 3:1.

J.S.E. Is there any sense in which we can view the apostles in a mediatorial way? As, for instance, where it says "they persevered in the teaching and fellowship of the apostles", Acts 2:42.

J.T. "And our fellowship is indeed with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ", 1 John 1:3, that is the apostles' fellowship, so that they had a mediatorial place, and it is quite in order that we should see that; and another thing is the abstract idea of ministry. The saints have very little idea of that. It is seen in John's writings peculiarly, because he can overcome the error and bring out the truth and make it predominate.

A.H. Could we have a word as to the meaning of the term 'abstract'?

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J.T. The best illustration of it is John's first epistle.

A.H. Chapter 3 particularly?

J.T. Well; the whole epistle; but read chapter 3:6, "Whoever abides in him, does not sin"; that is abstract; a person living on the earth, he does not sin. Yet in chapter 1:8 it says, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us". That is the concrete idea, but what we have read in chapter 3 is abstract.

P.L. The divine nature does not sin.

J.T. The divine nature is not a person, but "whoever abides in him" is a person.

P.L. A person viewed as in the divine nature.

J.T. Yes, that is allied to it. But to say it is the nature, you lose the person.

K.McL. Does the divine nature involve the formation of Christ in us?

J.T. Yes. Enlarge on that.

K.McL. Is it what the Spirit is effecting in us?

J.T. Yes, provided you keep in your mind the personal thought, not the abstract thought; it is the person, as over against the nature.

E.S.H. Does chapter 3:9 help? "Whoever has been begotten of God does not practise sin".

J.T. That is a modification of this. Our verse is "Whoever abides in him, does not sin", but to practise sin is a modification of that.

E.S.H. Is it affected by the completion of the verse? "Because his seed abides in him, and he cannot sin, because he has been begotten of God", John 3:9. Is it just to bring out the abstract thought?

J.T. Verse 9 is a different thought from verse 6, where he "does not sin", that is, not at all; but not to practise sin may mean 'habitually'.

E.S.H. What does "Because his seed abides in him, and he cannot sin" signify?

J.T. It is a positive abstract statement, "he

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cannot sin", but "practising sin" is a modification of it; it is not just one item of sin; not just once, but to 'practise' means more than one.

A.H. A course?

J.T. Just so.

Rem. The person governed by the abstract thought would not practise sin now.

J.T. We are to be governed by the thought in verse 6, he "does not sin". There is some modification in the following statement in verse 9, he "does not practise sin". You would say that?

Rem. Yes. Does John in this epistle bring out the personality of the saints according to God, so that we come to what is true of us in the abstract?

J.T. Just so; it runs through John's epistles.

F.S. True Christianity?

J.T. It is, if we connect the abstract with it. Peter and the others do not deal with the abstract side as John does, but he also maintains the idea of the person, as "we should be called [the] children of God" (1 John 3:1), where it is the family idea.

Rem. So that the chapter begins with a reference to persons, but not simply the work done in us.

J.T. That is good.

P.L. Would it be right to say that we are to be found in the testimony here?

J.T. Personally, for Christianity involves persons, and that we are the assembly, and we have to work it out in that way.

,Ques. As to chapter 5, and the thought of the victory over the world, is the faith of the saints brought into evidence?

J.T. Faith is greatly stressed in this chapter, so "Every one that believes that Jesus is the Christ is begotten of God; and every one that loves him that has begotten loves also him that is begotten of him" (verse 1). The idea of love is brought into it; and again, "Hereby know we that we love the children of God,

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when we love God and keep his commandments" (verse 2); the interchange for this is the love of God, "For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments"; see how the thoughts are interchangeable, "and his commandments are not grievous. For all that has been begotten of God gets the victory over the world" (verses 3,4); you now have the idea of nature in verse 4. "And this is the victory which has gotten the victory over the world, our faith. Who is he that gets the victory over the world, but he that believes that Jesus is the Son of God?" (verses 4, 5).

A.H. That is seen in John's gospel, chapter 9, where He stands out in complete superiority as the Son of God.

J.T. Just so.

W.S. This would be an advance on "Jesus is the Christ" (verse 1)?

J.T. Yes. The Son of God is found in the Old Testament in Psalm 2:7, but here it is more decisive, "Who is he that gets the victory over the world, but he that believes that Jesus is the Son of God?" The Son of God has a great place in John's writings.

P.L. He is the Sun and Centre of another world.

J.T. Just so.

W.F. Does the idea of 'nature' enter into verse 4? "For all that has been begotten of God gets the victory over the world".

J.T. "All that has been begotten of God" refers to nature, that is no matter how many persons there are, all are regarded as having the victory over the world, but we must make room for the thought of quality in all the brethren sitting here.

W.F. Does it refer to the persons?

J.T. It does not say. 'Persons' is the quantity of humanity, and you can see that we must carry the idea of quantity of persons.

Rem. All that proceeds from Adam; that is the contrast.

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J.T. Just so; it began with Abel, then Enoch, and to get the reality of that, Jude 14 says, "And Enoch, the seventh from Adam", but he should not be included in the thought of quantity.

A.M. Why is it "has been", not 'have been'? Is it the character of the thing thus set out as one thing?

J.T. 'One thing', yes; but the whole quantity of humanity, so to speak, can be designated as getting the victory over the world, whether quantity of persons, or weight. It is like the earth by itself, what weight there is! We can hardly bring that in here, but it does say, "All that has been begotten of God".

J,S.E. Is it the principle of substance over against what is abstract?

J.T. Very good. I would say that.

A.H. Is "our faith" a general idea?

J.T. Yes, and collective; it belongs to all Christians.

K.McL. Does it involve J.N.D.'s "Faith once delivered to the saints"?

J.T. Yes; it is the same idea. "Our faith" is an important thought. Hebrews 11 gives you the persons in whom faith is found. But here it is the thought of quantity. So we have the thought of great faith, and of little faith.

F.S. Is verse 5 individual? "Who is he"?

J.T. Yes, the person is brought in therefore, "Who is he that gets the victory over the world"?

W.S. Which is it, faith in us individually, or the system of faith, that is, Christianity?

J.T. Well, a 'system of faith' is all right; but it is Christian faith really. "He is the true God and eternal life" (verse 20). We may well rest on this thought of 'witness'.

E.S.H. Further than eternal life, we have the persons.

J.T. Just so.

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W.S. The Spirit stands alone in verse 6, and the water and the blood are added.

J.T. The water and the blood are elements of redemption; water as moral cleansing, and blood as judicial cleansing, that is, death has to take place. We are cleansed by both.

Ques. Is the witness of the Spirit and the water and the blood public testimony?

J.T. Yes, including the gospel, too. Let us read it, "This is he that came by water and blood, Jesus [the] Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that bears witness, for the Spirit is the truth. For they that bear witness are three: the Spirit, and the water, and the blood; and the three agree in one" (verses 6 - 8). We should get it into our minds, to learn to carry the truth in our minds, the greatest part of us, to enable us to carry the truth. Then it goes on, verses 9,10, "If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater. For this is the witness of God [which] he has witnessed concerning his Son. He that believes on the Son of God has the witness in himself; he that does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the witness which God has witnessed concerning his Son". So it is remarkable to rest on that which we have in ourselves, to carry it all the time and enjoy it. The Spirit of God has helped us; He is the Comforter, and the devil raises the point as to whether we have done something wrong in speaking to God, but we have the witness in ourselves; the water is for moral cleansing; purity in the person is needed. So it says in John 3:3, "Except anyone be born anew he cannot see the kingdom of God"; and again in verse 5, "Except anyone be born of water and of Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God".

W.S. Does the witness lead up to the thought of conscious knowledge, as in verse 13?

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J.T. I think that. "These things have I written to you that ye may know that ye have eternal life who believe on the name of the Son of God". That is conscious knowledge. If the devil is attacking, you come to know consciously that the devil is shut out, because of the water and the blood meeting the state of the person.

Ques. Would you link "the witness in himself" (verse 10) and the Spirit?

J.T. I think that is what it is, and perhaps some of us have not been accustomed to consult what is in us, and we become unhappy. Something comes in, the devil is watching to get into the souls of the saints to disturb them.

F.S. Why is the water mentioned first?

J.T. It is needed for the moral side, not the judicial side. Someone may say, You were a Christian, but now you are unhappy. You need the water; and then the blood comes in to cleanse "from all sin", 1 John 1:7.

J.S.E. This particular section should be rooted in us all, as to this transaction, so that we are not muddled as to each of these things?

J.T. Our methods are not happy as to the use of these things, if anything happens, especially as to the water and the blood; then nothing can take you out of the Father's hand.

Rem. 'Let the water and the blood, From Thy riven side which flowed, Be of sin the double cure, Cleansing from its guilt and power' (Hymn 396).

E.S.H. 'How bright, there above, is the mercy of God! And void of all guilt, and clear of all sin, Are my conscience and heart, through my Saviour's blood: Not a cloud above -- not a spot within' (Hymn 22).

P.L. As to the blood and water coming out of the Lord's side on the cross, John himself adds, "And he who saw it bears witness, and his witness is true, and

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he knows that he says true that ye also may believe", John 19:35.

J.T. That is John's note.

P.L. The thought of conscious knowledge is referred to in regard of the blood and water (see note to 'knows' in John 19:35).

J.T. The gospel rightly understood carries the reason for all these things.

A.H. "It is God who justifies ... . It is Christ who has died ... who also intercedes for us", Romans 8:33,34.

J.T. All is secured, but every one of the believers is an object of care.

A.M. Is there a link between conscience and consciousness?

J.T. There is a link with the mind. You know that your patients tell you that they are unhappy, and you give them the gospel instead of homoeopathic medicine. Consciousness is more than conscience.

A.M. Exactly.

J.T. Now in verses 14,15 we have the remark, "if we ask him anything according to his will he hears us. And if we know that he hears us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions which we have asked of him". It is beautiful in the middle of the night to have the consciousness that all is well. The Holy Spirit is here sent down from heaven, here with us as the Paraclete, and the Lord is speaking in heaven.

Rem. Our consciousness is because of the Spirit in us.

J.T. A beautiful thought. We are kept consciously from all defilement, "and no one can seize out of the hand of my Father", John 10:29.

A.H. Is the boldness toward God by the Spirit given to us?

J.T. By the Spirit dwelling in you.

J.S.E. John frequently uses this title "the

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Spirit", the shortest of all. Is it to convey to us the peculiar place this Person has in the intimacy of the family?

Rem. In verse 6 it is, "and it is the Spirit that bears witness, for the Spirit is the truth". He alludes to the simple title.

J.T. Very good.

J.S.E. Now in Romans 8:16 we have the same title, "The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit, that we are children of God".

J.T. Very good. How many times is the Spirit mentioned in Romans 8?

J.S.E. You have told us that before, so we all know!

J.T. Begin to read at the end of chapter 7.

Rem. "O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me out of this body of death? I thank God, through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then I myself with the mind serve God's law; but with the flesh sin's law. [There is] then now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and of death", Romans 7:24 -- Romans 8:2.

Rem. "A spirit of adoption" (Romans 8:15) is equal to a personal title, it is not merely His character.

J.T. "A spirit of adoption", so that the Spirit can be used as we speak to the Father.

Ques. Is the Spirit of God His title as with the saints in the wilderness path? We count on Him as the disciples counted on the Lord, perhaps more so.

Rem. So we have Him in Genesis 24; the servant there is undoubtedly the Spirit.

J.T. Yes.

Ques. Does His service lead to our enjoyment of eternal life?

J.T. So in verse 15 we are conscious of being heard, "And if we know that he hears us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions which we

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have asked of him" And then verse 16, "If anyone see his brother sinning a sin not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life, for those that do not sin unto death"; notice that, "he shall give him life, for those that do not sin unto death. There is a sin to death:" -- there is a difference made -- "I do not say of that that he should make a request"; the matter is left open to the believer's mind. And then, verses 17 and 18, "Every unrighteousness is sin; and there is a sin not to death. We know that every one begotten of God does not sin, but he that has been begotten of God keeps himself, and the wicked [one] does not touch him". You say, God keeps me, and yet you keep yourself. So, "We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies in the wicked one" (verse 19); you are kept from the terrors of the world. Then, verse 20, "And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us an understanding that we should know him that [is] true; and we are in him that [is] true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life". And then the final word verse 21, "Children, keep yourselves from idols". So that we do not rely simply on God to keep us, "keep yourselves".

Rem. We should not be a charge on the brethren if we kept ourselves.

J.T. Many say, God will take on the charge, but He has given us the power to keep ourselves.

W.F. John's children keep themselves from idols.

J.T. And their seductions, too. We have the Holy Spirit in us, a divine Person, sent down from heaven, equal to the Father and the Son. He is the only One said to have been "sent from heaven", 1 Peter 1:12.

J.S.E. Is there a connection between chapter 1:1, "That which was from the beginning" -- the Lord as coming into humanity, and this passage, "He is the true God and eternal life"? We are incapable of

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laying hold of the deity of Christ, though He has come within our range as Man.

J.T. In the Bexhill trouble the attackers said eternal life was a Person.

Rem. That is correct.

J.T. Not only eternal life; two other things.

Rem. They set aside the place of the Spirit in the saints, as a matter received on the principle of faith, a teaching arising from the lack of clarity as to receiving the Spirit in John 4 following the teaching of John 3, especially of verse 5.

J.T. The Lord says in John 4:14, "the water which I shall give him shall become in him a fountain of water, springing up into eternal life"; it leads upward.

K.McL. In verses 19 and 20 we have"We know" three times.

J.T. It all develops into the thought of "the true God". "Children, keep yourselves from idols". The knowledge of the true God will keep you from idols.

Rem. "And this is the eternal life, that they should know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent", John 17:3.

J.T. The true God and the true Man as you have expressed it.

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PRACTICAL UNITY AND LOVE

1 Corinthians 2:1 - 16; 1 Corinthians 3:1 - 17

J.T. It is well known that the epistle (and the second as well, but especially the first) is intended to correct any tendency to division. It is thought therefore that the second chapter being read, will help to practical unity and love, love amongst ourselves. It will look as if there was much amiss in this assembly at Corinth. The subject is taken up again later in regard to the Lord's supper, and sects being developed in the assembly. "For there must also be sects among you, that the approved may become manifest among you",1 Corinthians 11:19. It will also be noticed that the apostle is very gracious in opening his letter, and he treats the situation as local, and indicative of the local assembly, "with all that in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both theirs and ours" 1 Corinthians 1:2. So that the local position is pointed out, so that anything that was amiss is adjusted, and in measure this is so in the second epistle. Another thing is seen in paragraphs 1 and 2 of chapter 1, that they are what is called (as in John's first epistle) 'abstract'. That will account for the grave charge as to divisions among them opened up in verses 10 to 17 of chapter 1. There are very strong statements as to divisions, and how they are to be met, and in chapter 3 it carries on the thought of division, adding the thought that they were "temple of God", because the Spirit of God dwells amongst them. These are general remarks to show what is in mind so that we may all be free, as having the Holy Spirit, who is here dwelling amongst us. We were reading yesterday chapter 11, and thought it dealt with the service of God, as

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having its beginning in the Lord's supper; so we can continue now in the truth of these chapters.

Ques. You spoke of the sects in chapter 11, "there must also be sects among you". What about them in the light of the portion read?

J.T. Yesterday it was the Lord's supper we had in mind, leading up to the worship of God the Father, and now it is thought to extend the matter. Sects may spring up where love is not active, but serve to show those who are going on with God, "the approved". If any party spirit or sectarianism exists, it should be condemned at once.

Ques. Would Sosthenes the brother bring in the brotherly spirit, the Spirit of Christ?

J.T. Yes, the brotherly spirit, and now we have what is abstract, what is not well understood by the brethren. The apostle begins to speak of them in chapter 1:4 as if they were right, "I thank my God always about you, in respect of the grace of God given to you in Christ Jesus; that in everything ye have been enriched in him, in all word [of doctrine], and all knowledge (according as the testimony of the Christ has been confirmed in you,) so that ye come short in no gift, awaiting the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ; who shall also confirm you to the end, unimpeachable in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, by whom ye have been called into the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord". These verses are abstract; God has a right to speak of them abstractly; a perfect right to speak in the abstract. We find it in John's epistle, too. God is for the brethren, they have no need to be discouraged. In the first paragraph we have, "Paul, a called apostle of Jesus Christ, by God's will", that is God has called him to apostleship, "and Sosthenes the brother, to the assembly of God which is in Corinth"; the assembly of God is thus accredited and set up in the epistle; "to those sanctified in Christ Jesus,

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called saints, with all that in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both theirs and ours", 1 Corinthians 1:1,2, meaning that the mutual side is stressed, or hinted at, in the abstract sense; "theirs and ours" however far away, universal fellowship and local fellowship are both there at once.

Rem. It is necessary to have this abstract view of the saints if we are to go on together.

J.T. Yes, peculiarly abstract, in view of what the apostle was going to say in a condemnatory sense, which continues from chapter 1 to chapter 3.

Ques. Is it God's faithfulness over against our unfaithfulness?

J.T. God can be counted on. It is His love; "God is faithful".

Rem. So Paul is showing God's concern as to the saints at Corinth.

J.T. He speaks abstractly here; to the Thessalonians he speaks in terms of endearment. Nevertheless things are, and were, being held in Corinth; it is the same today, wherever they are walking in the truth. Do not be discouraged, go on, go on, go on. The Spirit of God is always ready by our side, to help in our weakness; all things are in our favour.

Rem. So he can say commendatory things here.

J.T. Yes, commendatory things, but then these reports had come to him; but even so things can be mended, as in chapter 5. God is ready to do anything to help us; so the man who sinned was ready to be restored before they expected it.

Ques. "With all that in every place", 1 Corinthians 1:2, how far does that go?

J.T. Is that not clear? Wherever the brethren are, God is ready to help them.

Ques. We meet many Christians; are they in this?

J.T. Are they walking in the truth? Can they be in fellowship?

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Ques. Is it persons in the 2 Timothy 2 position?

J.T. "Those that call upon the Lord out of a pure heart".

Rem. I refer to persons who are not breaking bread; are they all in this?

J.T. If they are calling on the name of the Lord they are qualified to break bread. God is entitled to deal with them in the abstract, so it reads "God is faithful, by whom ye have been called into the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord", 1 Corinthians 1:9. Is that what you understand by being in fellowship?

Rem. I could not say that; many dear Christians with whom I work in business, are they in this?

J.T. I do not think so. It is a question of calling "on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both theirs and ours". It is the general idea of the fellowship; we and they are in fellowship.

Rem. "Now I exhort you, brethren"; we are to listen to the Pauline appeal.

Ques. Are not "all that in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ" the same persons as in 2 Timothy 2:22, "those that call upon the Lord out of a pure heart"?

J.T. "Out of a pure heart", that is the thing. Do you wish to convey that those you speak of are in the position of 2 Timothy 2? What are they?

Rem. They are lovers of Jesus.

J.T. That is not enough. Do they "call upon the Lord out of a pure heart"?

Rem. They should be here tonight to answer for themselves!

J.T. Yes.

Rem. While you would be happy to meet lovers of the Lord Jesus, they are tested by the light, and whether they are prepared for that.

J.T. So it says, "If we walk in the light as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and

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the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanses us from all sin", 1 John 1:7.

Rem. 2 Timothy 2 would encourage us to "walk in the truth", 2 John: 4; 3 John: 4.

J.T. I should assume most here are walking in the truth. So that man, Sosthenes, is a real brother, not a Plymouth brother! He loves the brethren.

Rem. "And he made fifty clasps of copper to couple the tent, that it might be one", Exodus 36:18. Does that help?

J.T. It does; it is the quality of the material, copper or brass. Judgment can be used by its means.

Rem. The clasps would be like having the same mind, "that it might be one".

J.T. Just so. The brazen altar is in mind. Judgment is executed by it.

Rem. The clasps are to join to one another.

J.T. Just so, especially the goats' hair curtains; they would be rough, and resist anything that is against Christ.

Rem. Really they represent those walking in separation.

J.T. Just so.

Ques. Does the goats' hair appear in the elect lady of 2 John? She is to have no parleying with what is evil (verse 10).

J.T. Just that; no quarter is to be given to it, "do not receive him into the house, and greet him not",2 John: 10.

Rem. John speaks roughly of Diotrephes, "I will bring to remembrance his works which he does, babbling against us with wicked words; and not content with these, neither does he himself receive the brethren; and those who would he prevents, and casts [them] out of the assembly", 3 John: 10.

J.T. He is like the man here who corrupts (or destroys) the temple; 1 Corinthians 3:17.

Rem. Paul would be sensitive to these divisions;

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in Romans 16:16,17 he says, "All the assemblies of Christ salute you", and then "But I beseech you, brethren, to consider those who create divisions and occasions of falling".

J.T. Now in our chapter we have, "For it has been shewn to me concerning you, my brethren, by those [of the house of] Chloe, that there are strifes among you. But I speak of this, that each of you says, I am of Paul, and I of Apollos, and I of Cephas, and I of Christ. Is the Christ divided? has Paul been crucified for you? or have ye been baptised unto the name of Paul? I thank God that I have baptised none of you, unless Crispus and Gaius, that no one may say that I have baptised unto my own name. Yes, I baptised also the house of Stephanas; for the rest I know not if I have baptised any other. For Christ has not sent me to baptise, but to preach glad tidings", 1 Corinthians 1:11 - 17. He was sent to build up the kingdom and the assembly. Eve is spoken of in Genesis 2:22 as being built; it is an assembly thought.

Ques. What is entailed in the word, "I exhort (or beseech) you"? Is it an antidote to these sects?

J.T. That is plain enough; he beseeches them that they all say the same thing; not haggling about things. That is what happened among certain classes of brethren almost at once. Opinions are brought up so often and set one against the other.

"For it has been shewn to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of the house of Chloe, that there are strifes among you". How plain he is! He has said all he can for them in verses 1 to 9, and then we have the evil report through Chloe, "But I speak of this, that each of you says, I am of Paul, and I of Apollos, and I of Cephas, and I of Christ. Is the Christ divided? has Paul been crucified for you? or have ye been baptised unto the name of Paul?", 1 Corinthians 1:12,13. How plain all these things are, and thus pointing to a state of division.

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Rem. One spiritual man is a great help in ending such things by way of personal appeal. In Philippians 4:2 it is two sisters in the same way.

Rem. It is the power of spiritual authority; judgment has begun in God's house; 1 Peter 4:17.

J.T. Just so. In Hebrews 3:6 the Lord is presented as Son over the house, to contend with anything adverse in the house. Diotrephes intended to divide the saints, and to cast them out.

Rem. It was glorifying man and not the Lord.

J.T. And again, "let him recognise the things that I write to you, that it is the Lord's commandment"; Paul speaks of that; 1 Corinthians 14:37.

Rem. In the ship Paul says, "Ye ought, O men, to have hearkened to me", Acts 27:21.

J.T. And then he says, "For an angel of the God, whose I am and whom I serve, stood by me this night, saying, Fear not, Paul", Acts 27:23,24.

Ques. Does the thought of being "perfectly united", which means 'mending', show the need for clothing the saints with divine thoughts?

J.T. We have spoken of that, especially in dealing with Matthew's gospel; chapter 4:21.

Ques. Is the beseeching authoritative, "by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ"?

J.T. It would involve the care meeting if they are not right.

Ques. Should other brethren be called in if they are in difficulties?

J.T. There is no need. There is sufficient in the local position. We have each other, and the presence of the Holy Spirit; we thus have the means of dealing with everything.

Rem. But in love.

J.T. We come to that later on, in chapter 13.

Ques. Sisters are not to be overlooked? Chloe was a sister.

J.T. She can help, for she can be used as a witness.

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Rem. "Wisdom hath built her house" (Proverbs 9:1); we have wisdom here, too.

J.T. Yes, it reads (verse 18), "For the word of the cross is to them that perish foolishness, but to us that are saved it is God's power. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and set aside the understanding of the understanding ones. Where [is the] wise? where scribe? where disputer of this world? has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since, in the wisdom of God, the world by wisdom has not known God, God has been pleased by the foolishness of the preaching to save those that believe", 1 Corinthians 1:18 - 21; so that wisdom has a great place in the instructions of this chapter.

Ques. Is wisdom the means by which we "all say the same thing" (verse 10)?

J.T. Just so. Now in chapter 3 we can see how the apostle was labouring and giving them the instructions; really building, as Eve was built; it is an important word, as it refers to the assembly, and here it refers to the building, "But let each see how he builds upon it" (verse 10), and then, "For other foundation can no man lay besides that which [is] laid, which is Jesus Christ", the Man; that is the idea of the foundation here. "Now if anyone build upon [this] foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, grass, straw, the work of each shall be made manifest; for the day shall declare [it], because it is revealed in fire; and the fire shall try the work of each what it is. If the work of anyone which he has built upon [the foundation] shall abide, he shall receive a reward" (a comforting and precious thought, that God offers a reward). "If the work of anyone shall be consumed, he shall suffer loss, but he shall be saved" (another beautiful thought, that God has in mind to save, even a man whose works have to be burned up), "but he shall be saved, but so as through the fire"; that is most drastic. In Peter it speaks of eight

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souls being "saved through water", 1 Peter 3:20.

Ques. Have we to regard our local brethren as material to be built into the structure?

J.T. Of course, as we love and adorn them; they are all to be built into the structure.

Rem. So Paul shows how far God will go.

J.T. Sosthenes is a standing witness to brotherly love. "And now abide faith, hope, love; these three things; and the greater of these [is] love" (1 Corinthians 13:13); it is the comparative degree as over against the other two; love is the greatest of all, and covers the whole matter.

Rem. So there is how he builds, in verse 10; that would involve love as the animating thing.

J.T. Love is the predominating thought.

Ques. What would the gold imply in verse 12?

J.T. "Now if anyone build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones". I am not quite sure that the gold should be taken out of the context that it is in. It is corruptible. The heavenly city is gold, but not corruptible.

Rem. We are to keep to the foundation.

J.T. It is a question of what is put upon the foundation. How generous God is in dealing with people!

Rem. So He gives us milk first, but His thought is that we should advance.

Ques. Would there be a distinction between husbandry and building?

J.T. They show a dignified idea; husbandry is farming; building involves stones and mortar.

Ques. Is husbandry what will follow in a place?

J.T. I think so. "I have planted; Apollos watered; but God has given the increase"; that is the great general thought, that God gives the increase. "So that neither the planter is anything, nor the waterer; but God the giver of the increase. But the planter and the waterer are one; but each shall

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receive his own reward according to his own labour. For we are God's fellow-workmen; ye are God's husbandry, God's building".

Rem. There is no jealousy.

J.T. Love predominates; "love never fails"; things that God is doing will go through. "According to the grace of God which has been given to me, as a wise architect, I have laid the foundation, but another builds upon it. But let each see how he builds upon it". Paul has laid the foundation.

Rem. You referred earlier to Jesus Christ as the Man, that it is in mind that there is only one Man. Possibly today different men are in view. Paul had only one Man.

J.T. For the foundation there is only one Man, "a sure foundation"; "on this rock I will build my assembly", Matthew 16:18.

Rem. Paul does not address the overseers here, but the saints as such; and in chapter 3, as "the temple of God" (verse 16), that would be the answer to the sects and rivalries; they would be met by the saints as a whole.

J.T. "Love never fails" (1 Corinthians 13:8), and the Lord said, "By this shall all know that ye are disciples of mine, if ye have love amongst yourselves" (John 13:35); and it is to be among them in Corinth.

Rem. There is an irresistible combination of love and authority in Paul; and in Sosthenes, we have one divinely rescued from a state of division.

J.T. Yes; all that, and Timotheus, too (chapter 4:17), and Chloe here, too; women can be brought into it, and do great work.

Rem. We have "the house of Stephanas" in chapter 1 and chapter 16.

J.T. Yes, and if we went into chapter 12 we should see more. But here we have the shrine, "the temple of God" (verse 16), the Spirit of God dwelling among them.

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Rem. The temple here is a great added thought to what you have been speaking of in the first nine verses of chapter 1.

J.T. What is meant by "the temple of God"?

Rem. All are indwelt by the Spirit, and that would sober us, so that we would not be seeking a place there.

Ques. Would "ye are temple of God", and in the next verse, "the temple of God is holy, and such are ye", be abstract thoughts?

J.T. They are more than that.

Rem. They lead up to holding firmly to the fact that "all things are yours" (verse 21).

J.T. Yes, and see how they are treated, with great liberality; "the Lord is near" (Philippians 4:5); we can use that word even for the Spirit, for He is always near.

Ques. What about the quality of holiness (verse 17) in this connection?

J.T. "... And holiness, without which no one shall see the Lord", Hebrews 12:14.

Ques. Is it the power by which the enemy is excluded?

J.T. Very good. It is moral power for expelling the devil and all that is against God and Christ and the Spirit.

Rem. The gates of the holy city in Revelation 21 are never closed (verse 25).

J.T. "Hades' gates shall not prevail" (Matthew 16:18); they cannot prevail. The position of the assembly is invulnerable, and underlies all here.

Ques. Are we to walk now in temple light?

J.T. That is a beautiful phrase.

Rem. If temple light is to prevail, practical unity should be there first.

J.T. That is the whole thing, unity. You cannot have the local assembly functioning without unity.

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Rem. So it says, "If anyone corrupt the temple of God".

J.T. That is the word, and then "him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, and such are ye"; emphatic again. They were actually that, the temple of God in Corinth in the local sense.

Ques. "Let no one deceive himself"; why is the thought of self-deception brought in here? If the saints are "temple of God", would they be deceived? We may deceive ourselves, but not the saints going on in temple light.

J.T. So it says, "Be ye holy, for I am holy", 1 Peter 1:16.

Rem. He defends His own sphere.

J.T. "Him shall God destroy"; it is "destroy", not 'help' but destroy; it refers to the devil; he is destroyed.

Ques. What about the Holy Spirit in the temple of God; that means the Holy Spirit is there, and yet the thought of 'destroyed' is used in that connection? What about Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5?

J.T. They were not destroyed; they were buried as Christians.

Rem. It says, they "swathed him up for burial", Acts 5:6. They were treated with respect.

Rem. God is jealous for His people.

J.T. Yes; He is spoken of as "a jealous God", Exodus 20:5.