Pages 1 to 111-"The Person of Christ and the Spirit". Meetings in Washington, U.S.A., 1949. (Volume 179).

THE PERSON OF CHRIST AND THE SPIRIT (1)

John 1:1 - 18; 1 John 1:1 - 4

J.T. The thought in mind at this time is to look into the gospel of John, not as a whole, but the earlier chapters, beginning with chapter 1 and running on through chapter 7. In order to make as clear as possible what is in mind it may be said that the first chapter of John contemplates the Person of the Lord Jesus. It is in mind that we should compare this chapter with the first epistle of John; not that we should read the whole epistle, but have it in our minds, because the feeling is that the brethren all need to be grounded in the gospel of John just now. It is a time when we need to recognise the authority of the Scriptures, and John affords us instruction as to that. In chapter 1 of John's gospel we read, "In the beginning was the Word". Now while everybody is familiar with that statement, perhaps we shall see presently that we are not so familiar with its import as we had thought, and that we need to compare it with other scriptures that bear on the sonship of Christ, on His Person. John says, by the Spirit, in the first chapter, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God ... . All things received being through him, and without him not one thing received being which has received being". And then it says, "In him was life", and that is the thought we have before us. Now comparing that with 1 John 1:1 - 4, we read. "That which was from the beginning"; not He which was from the beginning, but, "That which was from the beginning".

These verses in John's epistle are read so that the brethren may have the facts before them. The pronoun here is in the neuter; it is not the personal pronoun as in John's gospel, for it refers to a thing; that is, to the eternal life. Now the brethren will not misunderstand me, but while the Person is in mind, that is to say, "the eternal life" refers to Christ, yet eternal life is not a Person. Some years past, there were certain who regarded eternal life as a Person; they spoke of the personality of eternal life, which was not accurate. Although the Person is in mind, yet the idea in John's epistle is eternal life, whereas in chapter 1 of John's gospel it is the Word, the Logos, a divine Person. Although in manhood, nevertheless He is a divine eternal Person. The epistle says, "That which was from the beginning", meaning the beginning of Christ down here, whereas of "the beginning" in John l, we cannot say when it was; it says simply "the beginning". "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God". It is a Person that is in mind, an eternal Person, and He is going to be spoken of in the gospel of John. But there was more to be said, and the three epistles had to be written to make clear that it was the eternal life that was in mind, that the saints should understand that this was eternal life, and that this life was in Christ; "this life is in his Son". That Person could be seen and heard and handled here below. I suggest all that for the brethren to think over. It has been gone over many times, but I think we are still somewhat cloudy as to these great subjects, and the distinction between John's gospel and John's epistles.

J.S.Sr. Is Genesis 1 the beginning of operations?

J.T. Just so, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth", that is a question of God's operations, but in John it says, "In the beginning was the Word", without any question of operations.

S.McC. Have you something specific in mind in saying that there is something about the beginning in John 1 that we may not be so clear about, although we have thought we were fairly clear about it?

J.T. Well, just what we have remarked, that the first chapter of Genesis is a question of operations, the operations of God, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth". In John's gospel it is not that, but "In the beginning was the Word". It is not what He is doing, but that He is there. And then He was with God, and He was God. After that we have the operations brought in, "all things were made by him".

S.McC. That would help us in that while through grace we have part with Him in many things there is a uniqueness about Christ, the Person of Christ, and about His sonship too, that we need to give greater attention to, do you think?

J.T. I do, and therefore the order is as already remarked, "In the beginning was the Word", the Logos; that is to say, the Person through whom God's mind is known to us. Whatever God may have to say is made known through that Person, that is to say, the Logos. That is the first thing, and then the second is that "the Word was with God", the Logos was with God; then that He "was God", which brings out that the Lord Jesus is God Himself. There are not two Gods, or three Gods; there is only one God, and He is that God, and the Father is that God, and the Spirit is that God. There is one God but there are three Persons.

J.H.P. I was wondering whether you had in mind that we should appreciate more the glorious Person of Christ as set forth in the first verse or two of the gospel as distinct from His operations, and our knowing Him through His operations?

J.T. We should proceed on these lines, which is the reason for suggesting the first eighteen verses of

John's gospel. I would add another word to further clarify the position as to the Spirit and the place that we hope He shall have in our conversations. In chapter 7 it is said, "For the Spirit was not yet, because Jesus had not yet been glorified". That is to say, what we have primarily in mind now is the question of eternal life which is basic, and it refers to what is down here because, as we see in chapter 6 the bread comes down from heaven; whereas chapter 7 speaks of Jesus being glorified, and what happens as a consequence after that. When Christ goes to heaven, that is to say when He is glorified, then the Spirit comes; and that is the point to make clear. It is an important matter in the minds of the brethren generally throughout the world at the present time, and I am not at all leaving that out, but my thought for the moment is that the brethren need the thought of the Lord's sonship, the Person of Christ Himself, and then to understand something of eternal life in that Person. The first epistle of John opens up thoughts as to the eternal life. When we come to chapter 7 we shall consider the Spirit specially, although we shall have occasion to speak of Him before, in many respects; but chapter 7 distinctly speaks of Him as here because Jesus is glorified. Moreover in chapter 6 the Lord speaks of "ascending up where he was before". "What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?" We shall have to connect that with the scripture in chapter 7 as to Christ glorified; the receiving of the Spirit stands in that relation; whereas the thought of eternal life stands in relation to the Holy Spirit down here, and to Christ down here as He was in incarnation, and for forty days after His resurrection which is alluded to in John's epistle.

S.J.H. Is the thought that John's gospel shows that it necessitates a divine Person, such a One as we have referred to, that we might have eternal life,

but when we come to the epistle there is something further, "that ye may know that ye have eternal life".

J.T. That is the idea exactly. First that ye might have it; "God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whosoever believes on him may not perish, but have life eternal". That is the gospel, but the epistle was written, "that ye may know that ye have eternal life", which is a very important point. How many know that? How many know it consciously? We are told in the epistle, "He that believes on the Son of God has the witness in himself", which alludes to the Spirit, that it is not a question of testimony by the evangelist, or of the gospel, but that the Spirit of God Himself is in the christian.

E.A.L. In Genesis 24 we read, "And she had said to the servant, Who is the man that is walking in the fields to meet us? And the servant said, That is my master!". The word that there, implies that she had the knowledge of Isaac through the operations of the servant, the Spirit typically. Would that help in bringing out what has just been said?

J.T. That is, the Spirit is the witness.

E.A.L. Yes, and He gives the bride the knowledge of the Lord Jesus, typified in Isaac. Thus He comes into this.

J.T. Very good, and that brings up another question that is burning with us, that is, that we must recognise the authority of all Scripture. Every Scripture is inspired of God. There are those who have somewhat reduced the level of the Old Testament, but the Lord intends, I believe, at this present time to remind us that the Scripture cannot be broken, it is one whole.

A.R. We get the same idea in Romans 8, the Spirit witnesses with our spirit that we are the children of God.

J.T. Yes, just so, witnesses with our spirit.

A.N.W. The Lord touches that point in His statement in John 7, that "he that believes on me, as the scripture has said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water". He takes the pains to say, "as the scripture has said".

J.T. That is good, I am glad you mentioned that, because it brings up the whole question as to the importance of the Old Testament scriptures in that the Lord Himself quotes them there, and yet you could hardly show exactly the part from which He quoted; we cannot say definitely, and yet we have His word, which is enough. What we are saying tests us as to our faith, because things are on the basis of faith and that is what John is aiming at, believing, and believing what the Lord Jesus has said. His words are authoritative, also the Scriptures.

R.P. In John 17, speaking of eternal life, Jesus says to the Father, "That they should know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent". Does not eternal life involve the knowledge of divine Persons?

J.T. You will remember that the same thought is found in the epistle of John where John says, "He is the true God and eternal life". That "He" is Christ. So that the Father is called the true God in John 17, and the Son is called the true God in chapter 5 of John's epistle.

H.B. "Ye search the scriptures, for ye think that in them ye have life eternal, and they it is which bear witness concerning me". That would relate to the Scriptures you speak of. The Lord gives full credit to those.

J.T. That is of prime importance at the present time, because even though it may not be said or formally asserted, there are many who think that the Old Testament is on a lower level than the New, whereas it is not.

T.N.W. In Acts 17 we read that the Bereans searched the Scriptures daily. They would be the Old Testament scriptures, would they not?

J.T. Just so, and if you look at the beginning of Acts where the account is given of the introduction of christianity you will find a constant allusion to the Scriptures.

S.J.H. One would like to ask whether Old Testament is a scriptural title? Has not the enemy used this title and said, It is old?

J.T. Perhaps so. It is not a testament in the ordinary sense in which the word is used; it is a question of testimony; the word 'testament' is based on the idea of testimony. So that if we use the term, it means that we have a testimony in the Old Testament and that that testimony is to Christ; "and they are they which testify of me". John 5:39. "And having begun from Moses and from all the prophets, he interpreted to them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself", Luke 24:27.

S.M. In Acts 17 we read, "And according to Paul's custom he went in among them, and on three sabbaths reasoned with them from the scriptures, opening and laying down that the Christ must have suffered".

J.T. "Opening and laying down", just so; the opening up of things and then the laying them down with authority; that is the idea, the way we should read the Scriptures. A brother opens up something from his Bible, but then he is laying it down by the Spirit, and thus it is authoritative. I hope we have something of that here now.

Rem. When the apostles went with the Lord through the cornfields, the Pharisees criticised; they wanted to bring in bondage, and the scripture quoted by the Lord was from the Old Testament, "Have ye not read", suggests that the Old Testament is

there to give the brethren liberty, especially in connection with addressing the Spirit.

J.T. Yes. It does too, it does give liberty. It is wonderful really how liberty is coming in amongst the brethren on this very point, because the Lord is really resentful that we have been neglectful in this matter.

V.C.L. Peter refers to the Spirit of Christ in the prophets. He refers to the prophets and what they testified, he speaks of the Spirit of Christ that was in them, testifying to the sufferings of Christ, and the glory after these. Would that not help our minds to see the true value of the prophetic word in the Old Testament?

J.T. Showing that it is the full divine thought of the Spirit of Christ which was in them. It is remarkable.

A.B. Would the apostle Peter in 2 Peter 1:21 be referring to the whole scope of Scripture, when he says that "holy men of God spake under the power of the Holy Spirit"?

J.T. Just so. There were no Scriptures when the book of Acts was written except the Old Testament. The Spirit of God began immediately to quote the Old Testament to confirm what had happened.

A.B. The Lord says in Luke 16, "If they hear not Moses and the prophets, not even if one rise from among the dead will they be persuaded".

L.L.P. The Lord said, as recorded in Luke 24:25, "O senseless and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken!". What you are stressing is helpful, because the Lord speaks, in verse 44 of the same chapter, about Moses and the prophets and the Psalms. It seems to make it unmistakably the Old Testament scriptures.

J.T. Quite so. The whole of Luke 24 confirms what we have been saying, and I thought in referring to chapter 7 of John that that should be one thing

in our minds. But we do not want to be diverted from chapter 1. We read the eighteen verses which bring out the idea of the only-begotten Son who is in the bosom of the Father having declared the Father.

A.I. Do you distinguish between John 1 where it says, "He was in the beginning", and the epistle where it says, "That which was from the beginning"?

J.T. Yes, because the pronoun in the epistle is the neuter pronoun "that"; whereas in the first chapter of the gospel it is the personal pronoun "He"; it is the Person that is in mind, "In the beginning was the Word". It is not some thought about Him, it is the Word Himself. You cannot say what beginning that was, but we should let it have its full scope with us; it is "the beginning". "The Word was with God", that is a further thought, and then, "the Word was God". What can we get greater than that?

A.R. In John's epistle it is in relation to the incarnation.

J.T. It is the incarnation, it is the beginning of Christ as here in flesh, to be handled and seen; and what was seen was eternal life, it was there with the evidence.

W.P. John 1:14 says, "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us". The beginning of the epistle would refer to the Word becoming flesh.

J.T. It is the same thing exactly historically, and we contemplate His glory.

Ques. Do I understand that the epistles were written before the gospel?

J.T. It is generally so understood. Probably one of the last scriptures written was the gospel of John.

A.N.W. Does not Genesis 1 agree with verse 3 of our chapter? "All things received being through him".

J.T. Quite so; it is very remarkable; not one thing that was made, was made without Christ.

A.R. John 1:2 is not in relation to anything at all.

J.T. We are not told anything about it. We do well just to meditate upon it and leave it, and let it have its full place in our minds, I say, in our minds, because with the Word, it is a question of the mind, not of the affections.

S.J.H. Is there a suggestion of counsel in it? Would not the very name 'Word' indicate that something is going to be conveyed?

J.T. That is the idea. The Logos as I understand from others, means what God has said or communicated, or may say, which covers the whole thing, the divine mind; not simply the affections, but the whole mind of God.

L.H.B. Does it carry with it the thought of authority? You mentioned that earlier.

J.T. It would indeed, it is God's authority.

B.W. Does the Word as used in reference to Christ here have any link with the Old Testament Scriptures? Has it any reference to His speaking in the Old Testament times?

J.T. Well, it might have, I would not deny that. "In the beginning"; that is the great idea; the greatest idea we can have as to the mind.

F.N.W. The hymn was changed from, 'Thou art the everlasting Word' to 'Thou art the blest incarnate Word' (Hymn 11).

J.T. Well, it is rightly changed, 'Thou art the blest incarnate Word', states the truth of the whole matter.

R.P. Would you say that Paul supports that when he says, "And he is before all", in Colossians 1, as he meditates on the glory of Christ's Person? Would that antedate Genesis 1? He says, "And he is before all, and all things subsist together by him".

J.T. "By him" is instrumental. That confirms what we are saying.

S.McC. Is the thought in naming Him the Word to keep before us in these last days that, while the Person has come into a subordinate position which the revelation of God required, yet that Person is none less than God; He is on equality with God, and He is God, and He was God?

J.T. That is what one thought we ought to see very clearly, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God", that is, association between divine Persons. Then "the Word was God". There are not two Gods, but the Word has the same place as God Himself, in fact He is God.

Ques. Does that go back before time?

J.T. Oh, it must be eternity. You cannot make a beginning to Christ as to His Person. In the beginning He was. The word beginning does not refer to Him at all, as to His Person. He is a divine eternal Person. He is God.

S.McC. As John's gospel is about to open up to us the economy of love in which divine Persons are to be viewed, it is important that at the start we should get this word before our minds as to the Person of Christ, is it not?

J.T. That is what I had in mind.

A.N.W. So that as you said the Logos, the Word, is to be in our minds. So far as I recall it is not referred to outside the verses we have read in this gospel and in the opening verses of Luke. Does John then proceed to engage our affections with that Person?

J.T. Well, no doubt he does, but it is really a question of the mind.

A.N.W. I was thinking how important it is to hold that Person rightly in our minds, now presented as in love.

H.B. Is this title not mentioned in Revelation 19? It says there that His name is called The Word of God.

J.T. Yes, it is the same word.

E.G.McA. Would not this first verse stamp as a lie all the statements made by men who say that Christ emanated from the Father, and all that kind of thing that is in the creeds?

J.T. Quite so. The creeds are all full of error. But we are dealing with the real facts as to the Lord's Person, and we cannot say too much in impressing the brethren, that we believe on the Lord Jesus Christ as God; He is God.

G.H. In Revelation 22 the Lord says, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end". What is the thought there?

J.T. Well, it is simply what we are saying. The Alpha and the Omega refers to the Greek language, the beginning of it and the end of it. That is, Christ is that, He is the beginning and the end, but personally He has no beginning and no end. That is our God; and to refer again to the question of love, that is the God we love. I think now we had better keep to the question of mind, that our minds are to become intelligent, because our minds are not nearly active enough. There is the power of the Spirit, the Spirit has come in to act on our minds. Nobody can deal with the points set out by men; they have not the truth; but it is our business to have the truth and to insist on the truth. It is a question of the mind. God has given us a mind that we should know the truth, "Ye shall know the truth", the Lord says, "and the truth shall set you free".

J.H.P. So that these first two verses should be kept in mind whenever we are reading the gospel of John.

J.T. That is what I am thinking. These eighteen verses are wonderful verses; we come now to verse 14, to what the Lord became, "The Word became flesh", speaking to us of the ability of a divine Person to change. The Word became something that He had not been before, not that He personally is something else, because He says, "Before Abraham was, I am". There is no change in Him, personally, but He has become something else. Why should He not? A divine Person can do that; He can become something else, and that something is flesh; hence He has taken flesh; "the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us and we have contemplated his glory". Well, there it is in these first fourteen verses; let us go in for that.

L.L.P. God says to Moses in his moment of hesitancy, "I AM THAT I AM", Exodus 3:14. Would that have any bearing on it?

J.T. That is Exodus coming into John, but it does not come up to John. That is Jehovah saying that He is what He is, and of course we revel in that thought, but when we come to John's gospel we get a divine Person formally stating that in the beginning He was, and He was with God, "the Word was with God, and the Word was God". That is a greater statement than that in Exodus.

Rem. The greatness of the Person is emphasised in the opening verses of the first chapter of Hebrews, as well as here. The writer of that book also seems to have the greatness of the Person in mind. He says, "God having spoken in many parts and in many ways formerly to the fathers in the prophets, at the end of these days has spoken to us in the person of the Son, whom he has established heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; who being the effulgence of his glory and the expression of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power, having made by himself the purification of

sins, set himself down on the right hand of the greatness on high".

J.T. We are reading Paul in the epistle to the Hebrews, as he is no doubt the author, and he is dealing with instrumentality, that is to say, God has an instrument that He is using, and that instrument is the Son; it says, "God ... has spoken to us in the person of the Son". It is God Himself that is acting, but God in Son.

S.J.H. Is it important to keep those names in the right setting? It does not say, In the beginning was the Word and the Word was the Son; it says, "The Word was God".

J.T. Just so. We do get the Son in Hebrews, but it is not on the same level really as what we get in John l, because in Hebrews it is a question of instrumentality as regards what God is doing. He touches on the idea of the Son, that the Son is the instrument through which things are done, but it is God Himself that is doing the thing, though as the Son. He is doing them as the Son.

A.D. It is all in relation to how God is speaking, is it not, the different ones whom God has used in speaking?

J.T. That is right. He has spoken by the prophets, and now He is speaking "in the person of the Son". It brings out the greatness of the Speaker.

A.R. In John 1 you do not get the incarnation until verse 14?

J.T. Exactly. Verse 14 is the beginning, "And the Word became flesh", that is the beginning of things. That of course leads up to John's epistle.

A.R. So you really get sonship in verse 14 for the first time?

J.T. It says, "And we have contemplated his glory, a glory as of an only-begotten with a father", and then it goes on to speak of the only-begotten Son. It is a question of the sonship of Christ.

A.R. Which helps us to understand the idea of the incarnation, does it not? What was before that we do not know.

E.P. In the contemplation of the greatness of the Lord Jesus here, we are to hold the other divine Persons equally in our minds. Does the stressing of the greatness of Christ here as the Word help us as to this?

J.T. Well, of course, "the Word was God", and therefore "God" as being all three Persons; the three Persons are included in that. It is not the Father, it is God, "the Word was God".

W.W.M. In speaking of our minds, have we to remember that there is such a thing as an uncreated sphere; and that the operations in Genesis in the creation come from One in the uncreated sphere?

J.T. Very good, the word confirms that; He is gone up beyond all the heavens; that is, into an uncreated sphere.

Ques. How should we understand verse 4 of John l, "In him was life, and the life was the light of men"?

J.T. It is what is called a reciprocal proposition, that is to say, you can say the life was the light of men, or you can say the light of men was the life. It is to show that it is a question of men, not of angels, nor of any other beings. The life refers to men, and we are the men. That is to say, in Christ was light for men, and that light was life, and it is for men, which of course includes women; it is a question of the human race. That is a wonderful thing that we may dwell upon, that God selected men for the working out of all His thoughts.

Ques. He refers to the men later in the gospel, does He not, "the men whom thou gavest me"?

J.T. Quite so, but that is more a matter of development in men, that they are not children. But the word men by itself includes the whole race.

S.McC. It has been said that we are limited to the terms of the economy; but while we are governed by the light of the economy, would not this scripture remind us that while the Lord Jesus and the Spirit are in the economy in a subordinate way, there is personally a greatness about Them that we are not to forget?

J.T. We should ever remember the word 'mystery'; "the mystery of piety is great". We hardly know what that means, I feel it for myself that I know so little about mystery, "Behold, I tell you a mystery", Paul says. We should be mysterious persons; the world does not understand us at all. We know so much as we do because we are selected by God to have this knowledge, the knowledge of Himself. And so Paul says, I want you to know how much I know about mystery. That is what he says to the Ephesians. Well, I say, I do not know what Paul knew but I would like to. That is what I think we should have before us, this idea of mystery.

Rem. In that connection our minds should help us. It speaks of the mind of the Spirit.

J.T. Quite so.

Ques. "By whom also he made the worlds", Hebrews 1:2. How are we to understand that?

J.T. Well, that refers to instrumentality; that is to say, it is God that is doing it, but it is really God in the economy, and God in the economy is using one of the Persons or two of Them. Certainly in Hebrews 1 it is the Son.

W.McK. What is the distinction between what we are reading here, "the Word was God", and 1 John 5, "He is the true God"?

J.T. We have just been saying that the same expression is found in John 17. The Father is said to be the true God there, but the Son is said to be the true God in John's epistle. Well, we have to accept that, it shows the mystery of the thing. I

think we should understand the thought of mystery; we should be humble about it, and be ready for mystery, and for inscrutability. It says, "the mystery of piety [or godliness] is great. God has been manifested in flesh, has been justified in the Spirit, has appeared to angels, has been preached among the nations, has been believed on in the world, has been received up in glory". Well, these are wonderful things; they are a mystery, but they are known to piety. What do I know about them? That is what everyone should ask himself.

J.H.P. Would you say something on the sentence, "the Word was with God"? You have spoken of "the Word was God".

J.T. Well, it is just to bring out the society, so to speak, the social feeling of the association between the Father and the Son, if we are to bring the economy into it. He was with God. 'With' is a peculiar preposition; this Person called the Word or the Logos was with God, that is the idea of association of the Persons. The word 'association' is the only one I can use to make it clear what existed between these Persons. But then the Spirit of God does not stop at that. He says, "The Word was God". In the Roman economy, as I understand, there were three emperors at one time all on the same level, all of the same importance. If one said anything the others said it. Well, that is used just as an illustration of what we are saying as to Deity, that the three Persons are equal, They are equal actually in Their abstract relations.

A.D. Would that bring in the thought of unity, "the Word was with God"?

J.T. The word unity is not great enough.

A.N.W. I was thinking of the expression used by Mr. Darby, 'Distinctiveness of personality'.

J.T. We might say of ourselves that we are united or of one mind about things, but you cannot very

well say that about divine Persons. The matter is too great for that.

F.N.W. Would it be more in order to connect the word unity with the economies into which God may have entered, whether in creation, or in the present economy? We are speaking now of the association before any economy was entered upon.

J.T. Yes, and it is all abstract, it is a question of dealing with matters abstractly.

S.McC. So that the prepositions in these first eighteen verses are really unique, are they not? The prepositions are divinely selected. You said years ago in regard to the controversy in connection with our Lord's sonship that the prepositions in these eighteen verses were like a sword guarding the Person of Christ, and the preposition 'with' to which you have been referring involves what you have been saying-association.

J.T. That is so.

A.N.W. And is not the excellence of wisdom seen in the fact that it says, "In the beginning was the Word", not, In the beginning was the Son?

J.T. Just so.

S.J.H. Do we understand then that there are three divine Persons known as the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, yet there is one God?

J.T. Paul says, "Yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom all things, and we for him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him". We might add the Spirit, but the Spirit is not mentioned there; though in truth He is there. Therefore there is nothing in that to militate against what we are saying.

S.J.H. In thinking of the Father then, it would not include the three Persons?

J.T. Oh, no; the Father is distinct as one Person, "one God, the Father". The Father there is viewed as God, but not as three Persons. God is entitled

to that name and that is the way John generally uses the word Father.

Ques. Would it be right to say that these terms have their significance only in view of the incarnation?

J.T. Just so; the incarnation makes it all very simple. God is pleased to make it simple for us, and yet we are feeling the need of learning the mysteries so as to understand inscrutability, to get some idea of inscrutability.

Ques. When the Lord says, "I and the Father are one", is that in relation to His operations here in the economy?

J.T. Quite so, because what is in mind is what is being done.

V.C.L. Does not the use of certain terms such as the word 'beginning' in verse 1 show the extraordinary grace of the Spirit of God to encourage us to understand as much as we can with our minds?

J.T. That is right, and the Spirit of God is here this afternoon just to help us on these lines, and if we are kept in His mind we shall get help, because we are dealing with the greatest things, and we are to see how we can take them into our minds, being humble about it, and getting to God about it. Prayer is a great thing. Luke would go with John in regard to that, for Luke is constantly alluding to prayer; he says of the Lord, that He prayed all night.

R.P. Would you say a little more as to the prepositions our brother referred to?

J.T. You tell them, Mr. McC., about those prepositions.

S.McC. I am just thinking of what you yourself had drawn attention to in that article, The Names of Divine Persons, which was a means of help to the whole assembly. You pointed out that the preposition 'with' in verse 1 involved equality, 'alongside of'; whereas the preposition 'in' in verse 18, "in the

bosom of the Father", indicates that the position was arrived at by motion towards, and this alludes to the Lord in manhood, not in the pre-incarnate conditions of Deity.

R.P. That is very beautiful.

J.T. Yes, it is very beautiful, and we should like to see the sisters coming into all this because it is for them; they belong to the race, designated 'man', the kind of people that the revelation is for, "In him was life, and the life was the light of men", including women and children, whatever they are, they are all included in it. The sisters here today are here to learn and to get in the truth with the brothers and be like them as far as they may be according to divine directions.

J.K.P. Mr. Darby's note to verse 2 refers to, 'such a one as that'. Is that to emphasise His Person and that He was eternal? Can you say anything more to help us in the matter of the control of our minds as giving them over to the contemplation of so great a Person?

J.T. Well, I think the word Logos is what is in mind. Not anyone of us here perhaps knows much about Greek; but it is clear that what we have been speaking of is clearing up our minds as to this question. When we sit down to the Lord's supper, we want our affections to be active, but the mind is active even there; it is 'For the calling of Me to mind', the Lord says. So that we should have our minds taken up with these things, and so should be able to speak accurately as to them.

J.S.Sr. Is that why the first operation was, "Let there be light"?

J.T. Well, that is first, the idea of the day, that things are to be clear. And so in John's epistle, we are told that God is in the light, and that "if we walk in the light as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another".

A.A.T. We have been talking about abstract things, but is it not difficult for our minds to take in abstract things?

J.T. I do not think so, if we accustom our minds to it. It is a question of how you have used your mind and how I have used mine. Then we were talking just now about sisters, are they using their minds? Because God has given them minds too, and they are to be used. It is very striking that the Lord's supper is said to be 'for the calling of Me to mind'; that is what the Lord said. The same word is used as regards the bread and the cup.

E.P. Is it your thought that the great teaching involved in these first three verses underlies all the teaching in this gospel?

J.T. That is right, those three wonderful verses.

THE PERSON OF CHRIST AND THE SPIRIT (2)

John 3:1 - 21, 35, 36

J.T. What is in mind now is to look into the matter of new birth. We are therefore treating of the operational side of the truth. We did not treat of that in our consideration of chapter 1, because we were speaking of the Person of the Lord Jesus as set before us there by the Spirit. There is no doubt that the Lord has been with us in this great matter, the greatest matter, we might say, that we could have before us. Now we are undertaking to look into what we may call the operations of the three Persons of the Godhead. The Spirit, specially, is alluded to in the operation of new birth; then the Father Himself, and the Son in verses 35 and 36, the Father having given all to be in the hands of the Son, "The Father loves the Son, and has given all things to be in his hand. He that believes on the Son has life eternal, and he that is not subject to the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides upon him". In this section, as has been remarked, the subject in the main is eternal life, new birth leading up to it. Yet we have the idea of the Son of man being in heaven, so that we are still speaking of that line and the operational services rendered to us from there, but when we come to the real subject of eternal life, that is to say, formation brought forward in it, we have to see what comes down from heaven, the operations in relation to new birth and eternal life having to do with what is on the earth. This will require much inquiry and perhaps questioning, but what has been remarked I am sure is right, that new birth leading up to eternal life, and eternal life itself, have to do with the operations of the Spirit as here. When we come to chapter 7 it is the glorification of the Son of God

so that the Spirit might come down formally, but that is not said here.

S.J.H. Does the thought of the wind blowing where it listeth give an indication of the sovereignty of a divine Person?

J.T. Certainly, the sovereignty of the Spirit of God.

A.R. Does verse 2 of Genesis 1 suggest the idea of the operations of the Spirit? It is said that He hovered over the face of the deep.

J.T. Well, yes, hovering over the face of the deep, though there is not much there in the sense of operations. These are already stated in the fact that in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth; that is the great operational thought of God.

S.McC. Is there something in the fact that this matter of new birth comes up with a man that should have known better? He was hindered intellectually in his apprehension of the truth, and therefore the necessity for emphasising the Spirit's sovereign action in the new birth.

J.T. Not only that, but he evidently was not a studious man, he was ignorant, really inexcusably ignorant, and I believe that has a great application at the present time. Why should we be ignorant when things are made so plain, and there is so much ministry, large volumes of the Collected Writings and all that? They are available to us, why do we not read them?

S.McC. The Lord referred to him as the teacher of Israel.

J.T. He was the teacher of Israel, and the Lord says, "Thou ... knowest not these things!" He was ignorant really of the truth; he should have known the book of Ezekiel.

C.A.M. In that connection would you say that the work of God had caused him at least to appreciate another teacher in coming to the Lord?

J.T. Yes, but it is a poor affair that he does not know more than he does. We all are exposed to that sort of thing, we should know what is current, and we should not be saying things that are not right. Not that I am saying a word against Nicodemus beyond what should be said, but he was not like Nathanael, who was a quick learner and did not miss anything; the Lord credited him with it too.

W.S. Luke in the opening of his gospel refers to himself, when he says, "It has seemed good to me also, accurately acquainted from the origin with all things".

J.T. That is very good. Now to get at the real point of the new birth here is of first rate importance. Whether the brethren understand it or not is a question, because it is the Spirit's operation in a peculiar way. It says that the wind blows where it will; the wind is used as a figure, we have to understand that things are happening that are not always intelligible. The Lord says, "Thou ... canst not tell". That was not said of Nicodemus only, because in this matter nobody can tell; it is the sovereign action of the Spirit. You cannot just tell exactly what it means, but still it is there.

Ques. Would that fit in with the thought you were expressing this morning of mystery? "Thou ... canst not tell".

J.T. Well, it does.

S.McC. The Lord said to Nicodemus, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that which we know, and we bear witness of that which we have seen, and ye receive not our witness". The Lord is speaking in the dignity of His own intelligence, not as identified with the Jews. There was a matter that had been laid before them, and the Lord says, You do not receive the witness.

J.T. And I suppose the Lord means there, that He is not simply accusing Nicodemus, but the class

that he represented, the Pharisees. He belonged to a characteristic class, as it were.

S.McC. The Lord introduces a class that does know. He says, "We".

E.A.L. We would like to hear more about the new birth. Our natural birth is a birth which has an end in death, while new birth entering into eternal life has no end in death.

J.T. That is good; only I would not link on what does not end in death so much with new birth. The full thought is eternal life, not new birth, if we are speaking of what does not end in death.

E.A.L. I had in mind what the Lord said in John 17, "And this is the eternal life, that they should know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent".

J.T. Well, that is a question of knowing, but there is more than merely knowing about what does not end in death. That is in chapter 10. The Lord says there, in speaking of the sheep, "My Father who has given them to me is greater than all, and no one can seize out of the hand of my Father". That is the security we have as in the hands of the Father and the Son. The idea conveyed in new birth is better expressed by "born anew", born entirely afresh, from the top, really. That is to say, an entirely different origin altogether from natural birth.

A.N.W. Judging by the meaning of that word "anew", which the Lord used, its import should have prevented Nicodemus from making such a suggestion as that a man return to his mother's womb. It is born anew from an entirely new source, it deals with the source as new entirely.

J.T. Yes, therefore the subject is very clearly opened up, "There was a man from among the Pharisees, his name Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews; he came to him by night, and said to him, Rabbi,

we know that thou art come a teacher from God, for none can do these signs that thou doest unless God be with him". Well, that is so far so good, but then the Lord says to him, "Verily, verily", an expression which occurs about twenty-four times in John's gospel, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except any one", not simply a man, but any one; "Except any one be born anew he cannot see the kingdom of God". The point the Lord is making is what a man can see, and then what a man can enter into, whether he can see the kingdom of God, and whether he can enter into it. That is what I feel should guide our minds now; it is a question of the kingdom of God and what the operations here have in mind in that relation.

Ques. Was Nicodemus a subject of new birth?

J.T. What he said was very vague, and shallow. Even in chapter 19 his part is not very brilliant. He and Joseph of Arimathaea are linked together there. Then in chapter 7 he said a word of defence for the Lord, but at the same time there is a lack in him. Over against him Nathanael learned quickly, he took things up and learned them quickly. We should not be ever learning and never coming to the knowledge of the truth.

J.H.P. Would you say a word as to the expression, "Except anyone be born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God"?

J.T. Why does the Lord allude to that? It is a question of the moral sway of God in these circumstances; that God has to say to all these matters. You must listen to what He has to say; I think that is what is meant without going into it too much. The Lord just touches on it, as if He would say, 'Nicodemus, you need to see the kingdom of God, and you need to enter into the kingdom of God too'. I think the Lord meant that he really was a subject of the work of God, but a very poor one, a very

poor learner; and we might say that we are all in that class, very poor learners.

V.C.L. Would it be in your mind that, with the place the Spirit is gaining in our hearts, this matter of new birth and seeing and entering the kingdom should be much clearer than it has been before?

J.T. I would say that; much clearer, because we are very hazy; not that I want to be critical of the dear brethren, because I am including myself; we are very hazy about things, and yet there is wonderful instruction available to us. It is remarkable the amount of ministry that the Lord is giving and has been giving all through these times of the revival up till now. There is a great need of those who can lead, who know what to do and what to say, great need everywhere, so that the brethren should not be hazy about things.

Rem. Paul says to Timothy, "Think of what I say, for the Lord will give thee understanding in all things".

J.T. Just so, "the Lord will give thee understanding". We are to think on these things, we are to consider them and to consider the ministers, as to whether they are able to say what is right.

V.C.L. Is there any point in the fact that Nicodemus is referring to the Lord's own signs, and the Lord immediately turns his mind to the Spirit's operations?

J.T. Well, the Lord opened up the whole matter, a wonderful opening up of things in relation to the sovereign action of the Spirit; that is what this chapter is. The Lord said to Nicodemus, "The wind blows where it will, and thou hearest its voice, but knowest not whence it comes and where it goes: thus is every one that is born of the Spirit". Now there are references to three matters; being born of the Spirit and then seeing and entering into the kingdom of God. Then, "Nicodemus answered and

said to him. How can these things be?" He was alluding to nature, of course. Jesus answered and said to him, "Thou"; the 'thou' is emphatic, "Thou art the teacher of Israel and knowest not these things! Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that which we know, and we bear witness of that which we have seen, and ye receive not our witness. If I have said the earthly things to you, and ye believe not, how, if I say the heavenly things to you, will ye believe?" The Lord here is not dealing only with Nicodemus, He is dealing with his class, the kind of people he is linked with. Now, Nicodemus must think over this matter of heavenly things, and consider what it means, and we can very well do the same. Then in verse 13, "And no one has gone up into heaven, save he who came down out of heaven, the Son of man who is in heaven. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, thus must the Son of man be lifted up, that everyone who believes on him may not perish, but have life eternal". So that God has reached His great point in eternal life already, in this verse. At the same time it is a question of the Son of man going up into heaven, and being in heaven, and what could Nicodemus say about that? What can we say about it, because it is a mysterious thing, it is a mystery, that the Lord should be in heaven as the Son of man, and yet He is here on earth.

S.J.H. Would not the fact that the wind has blown our way accelerate our ability to learn more quickly? These wonderful things as to the Holy Spirit and the current ministry, have come our way, and they are really ours. The wind blows where it will, and many have not heard it, apparently, but we have, and one delights in it, that it is a sovereign matter of the Spirit of God.

J.T. Now we have to just touch on things and move on. It says, "And no one has gone up into

heaven, save he who came down out of heaven, the Son of man who is in heaven". That is a mysterious thing that the Lord could say that of Himself. We have to understand that there is mystery attached to His Person. He could say that He was the Son of man in heaven and yet He was here on earth, talking to Nicodemus.

S.McC. In that connection it has been said questioningly sometimes in regard to this matter of addressing the Spirit. How can we address the Spirit, a Person within us? Is that not putting limits on a divine Person? We cannot limit Him to just what He is as in us.

J.T. Just so; and so when the Lord was here, you could not speak of Him or to Him as you would speak to an ordinary man, because you could not fathom what was there. The same is true now, the presence of the Spirit of God is unfathomable, we cannot understand it. People around us do not understand what we are talking about, they are outside of it; but we have light and I am sure that the Lord is pleased to see us here this afternoon and all interested.

A.R. The Spirit of God is here objectively and subjectively at the same time, is He not?

J.T. Well, quite so; He can be viewed objectively, as you can speak of anybody objectively at a distance from you. You can apprehend Him and speak of Him in that objective way.

R.P. Would you say something as to "that which is born of the Spirit is spirit"?

J.T. It would show that there is a wonderful character of operations going on here on earth just now. Presently it will cease when the dispensation ceases, but there is something going on in the assembly now that we can name as of the Spirit, of which we can say that it is spirit. "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the

Spirit is spirit". We can name it. We might say that the word 'spirit' applies to nearly everybody in this room.

F.N.W. In the preceding chapter the Lord did not trust Himself to them; but does this matter of spirit, "that which is born of the Spirit is spirit", establish a trustworthy base upon which these other things can be built?

J.T. The Lord could not trust them, because the idea of spirit was not there; there was just ignorance as to all that was going on, but Nicodemus was not like that, there was something in him that the Lord could address as spirit. I believe He appreciated Nicodemus in that sense. So that he is seen again in chapter 7, and he goes right through to chapter 19.

F.C. Do you think he was hindered because he was not ready to leave the Sanhedrim, he was not ready to leave his religious position?

J.T. Just so, but still there was something in him. He represents a class of people who are not against us or the truth; indeed there is something in them that indicates that God is working with them, and we have to be very patient with them, so that they may come to light at last. Nicodemus did come into the light at last, in chapter 19.

A.B. Elisha asks for a double portion of Elijah's spirit, I wondered whether that would bear on what has been said about the Spirit being within us and alongside of us?

J.T. Elisha wanted to get a good supply of the spirit of Elijah, and Elijah said, "If thou see me when I am taken from thee, it shall be so to thee". You have to be alert to get this.

Ques. The Lord speaks first of seeing, then of entering into the kingdom of God. Would that suggest movement in intelligence?

J.T. Seeing is of course an action of the eye, and entering is an action of the mind. Unless one is born anew he has no sight at all, he does not see anything. But then he must be born of water and of Spirit to enter into the kingdom of God. There are the two things, water and Spirit. Born of water is a sort of negative or cleansing idea and of the Spirit is a positive idea, meaning that new birth has taken place and there is the sense of being in spirit, as the Lord says, "that which is born of the Spirit is spirit". That is what we want to get at, whether we are all in this concrete thing here today. It is the idea of the Spirit given to this one and that one. Perhaps everybody here today has the Spirit, but if not he may be born anew. We are therefore dealing with positive things this afternoon.

S.McC. Does "That which is born of the Spirit is spirit", involve a change of heart? I was thinking of your allusion to Ezekiel 36.

J.T. The word there is "I will give you a new heart". It is to that the Lord alludes when He says to Nicodemus, "Thou art the teacher of Israel and knowest not these things!" Nicodemus ought to have known these things.

G.W. Do you think Nathanael as having come from Cana of Galilee would be characterised by having witnessed the glory the Lord had displayed in that place? It says at the end of the gospel that Nathanael was of Cana and that is where the Lord manifested His glory. I am endeavouring to link it on with what you said about Nathanael as a quick learner, and connecting it with the glory and the Spirit's operations.

J.T. Nathanael became an apostle, you know, he became an apostle in the Lord's ministry, he became quite a distinguished man, but Nicodemus did not. The need for those who lead is very great. Nathanael

began to lead; he was one of the seven that went with Peter going to fish, but he became a useful man afterwards. The Lord said to Nicodemus, "We speak that which we know", and the point is that we should get to know things and convey them to others, because there is so much need of teaching.

J.H.P. Is there the thought of each divine Person operating sovereignly in this chapter? First the Spirit, as typified in the wind, and then in verse 13, "he who came down out of heaven", and then in verse 16, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son". Is there a progressive suggestion in that way?

J.T. That is right. The three divine Persons are seen operating here. We are dealing with the operational side now, and the point is that eternal life comes into view. The Lord Himself speaks of it but He says, God; that "God so loved the world". In saying that, He is speaking about eternal life.

Ques. What is the difference between being born of the Spirit, and the Spirit coming upon them in Acts 19?

J.T. The Spirit coming upon us, is when we get sealed. It is when you get the Spirit that the Spirit comes upon you. Nicodemus had not got thus far clearly.

Ques. Would you preach about being born of the Spirit in the gospel?

J.T. I would say that in some sense you must, I would put it to people who were listening to the truth. You must see to it that you are born anew. It is a good question to raise with people, are they born again? But with that you want to be sure they have the Spirit too; you want to raise the question. Are you sealed with the Spirit?

Rem. Paul says, in Acts 19, "Did ye receive the Holy Spirit?"

J.T. Just so, and they said they did not know the Spirit was there at all; they did not know the Spirit was being given.

J.H.P. Is it significant that the reference to life eternal comes after all three divine Persons have been referred to as operating?

J.T. I think, on the whole that it is the objective presentation of the subject of eternal life in this section. When we come to chapter 6 we get the subjective side of things, because it is a question of what comes down from heaven; "the bread of God is he who comes down out of heaven". Here we have the actual operations of the three Persons in the objective sense. We have to go to chapter 6 to get the real thought of eternal life as down here in the sense of the bread of God coming down from heaven.

S.M. The question of believing enters in here, does it not? "He that believes".

J.T. Yes. The principle running through John's gospel is faith, "Why do you not believe me?" the Lord says. We are prone to be just literal in our conversations, and remarks, and questions.

L.L.P. Would the point of believing be stressed by the fact that in the passage read there is a penalty for unbelief?

J.T. In verses 35 and 36, you mean. "The Father loves the Son, and has given all things to be in his hand. He that believes on the Son has life eternal, and he that is not subject to the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides upon him". It is a terrible thing that comes out there, and it is in connection with things being given into the hands of the Son by the Father. This question comes up, that a man may not be subject to the Son and hence not have eternal life at all, and in that case the wrath of God abides on him, one of the most solemn things in the whole book.

V.C.L. Is it right to say that those who are born again shall surely receive the Holy Spirit from the Father, because of this being the Spirit's dispensation?

J.T. Quite so. Some say, that there will be people who are the subjects of the work of God in the present period, who will not get the Spirit at all, and will not come into the assembly, I do not think that is so. While the Spirit is here every person who is the subject of the work of God will come into the assembly. It is a very comforting thought.

THE PERSON OF CHRIST AND THE SPIRIT (3)

John 4:1 - 30

J.T. We finished yesterday with an allusion to verses 35 and 36 of chapter 3, and there can be no doubt that chapter 4 opens up the position of the Son's appointment to all things as set forth there. Here the feminine side of humanity comes into view, so that we have to consider how the feminine side is worked out in relation to eternal life and also in relation to the service of God. The operational side is, of course, in view still, and will be throughout, the subjects being taken up in perfect order. Now speaking of the feminine side, we have had it already in chapter 2, but it is taken up here clearly in relation to the vessel. The Lord is seen here as having all things given into His hands, as it says in chapter 3, "The Father loves the Son, and has given all things to be in his hand. He that believes on the Son has life eternal, and he that is not subject to the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides upon him". So that now the Person who is the great Operator in the economy is before us, and that is the Son. The mind travels to Genesis 1 in view of all that has happened, and the area in which the happenings occurred, that is, the expanse; the immense expanse that God has opened up as the sphere of His operations. The Operator there was God; as it says, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth". Now He has an appointed One in the Son, the Son is the Operator now, and the Father loves Him.

F.N.W. Has He that unique place as being in the bosom of the Father?

J.T. That is what you get in chapter l, and chapter 3 says, "The Father loves the Son".

A.N.W. Then coming out into operation the Spirit elects to call Him Lord. The chapter opens

with the title 'Lord' which is quite unusual. "When therefore the Lord knew".

Ques. Is this woman material for the operations?

J.T. Exactly; she is an example of the material and how it is formed, and then she begins to operate herself, she moves herself. So that the Lord is seen here as administering. We may use the word 'administration' as well as operation in connection with the term 'Lord'.

F.N.W. "My Father worketh hitherto and I work", what is involved in that?

J.T. That is chapter 5 which we shall not touch by itself. The allusion is to the fact that the Father had been operating from the first of Genesis, but that the Son is now operating. That chapter opens up how the Father and Son are operating together, but here the Son is operating by Himself as appointed, as being the Administrator, the One whom the Father loves; a very precious thought.

S.McC. Would the fact that a woman comes into view in chapter 4 immediately following this formal statement of the economy in the end of chapter 3, suggest in principle that one of the prime thoughts in the operations of the economy is the assembly?

J.T. Quite so. Hence the thought runs through the book in certain women, culminating in Mary Magdalene, the one who recognises that the Lord is her Teacher. So the Lord proceeds here carefully, because it is a careful operation. The Lord pursues the subject until He comes to the matter of her husband. "Go, call thy husband". Of course the wife normally should be at the call of her husband, but in this case the husband is at the call of the wife. That is a thing to be noticed by wives and husbands, as to how we move together in the economy.

Ques. In chapter 3: 36, where it speaks of being subject to the Son, Mr. Darby says, 'It is the

obedience of submission to His Person'. Would that feature be set out in this woman?

J.T. I think so; it is a subject that runs through the gospel. The Son is seen there as loved by the Father, and anyone who is not subject to the Son is subject to eternal judgment.

J.S.Sr. Are the Son's movements to be noted here? "He must needs go through Samaria".

J.T. You mean the Lord's movements. That need would undoubtedly bear on the fact that this woman comes into evidence, because it is a question of the material that the Lord had in mind to bring about for the assembly.

S.M. Does it magnify the operations, in that the branches run over the wall?

J.T. Very good, that is from Genesis 49. Joseph's branches run over the wall. In the woman's mind the wall stood between the Samaritans and the Jews, but then the Lord as the true Joseph is here and the branches run over the wall.

Ques. As this conversation goes on, there is exposure brought about in this woman; I suppose making room for the work of God?

J.T. It was to clear out the dross. The Lord works to clear out dross wherever it is, and the dross is everywhere; but then the service of the Lord is to clear it away, and she gives evidence of clearance by leaving her water-pot and going her way into the city to the men, showing that she was not afraid of them now morally; she could evangelise them. Before this it would have been quite different; for she had had five husbands.

E.P. Was this woman previously a subject of the work of the Spirit?

J.T. I do not think she is so seen; she is just in her natural state. She is a Samaritan and the Lord a Jew, but she is not long in being adjusted and that brings out this wonderful material, that a woman

should leave her water-pot and go her way into the city and come to the men, and say, "Come, see a man who told me all things I had ever done: is not he the Christ?". The fact that He could tell her everything that she had ever done was the evidence of it; He is the Christ.

J.K. Is there any thought in her coming to draw water, that she feels her need?

J.T. Well, she is in need, but it is just a natural need such as you might find with anybody, and the Lord was pleased to open a conversation with her. It says, "And he must needs pass through Samaria. He comes therefore to a city of Samaria called Sychar, near to the land which Jacob gave to his son Joseph". That is the historical position, and of course history has a great deal to do with the testimony. This matter extends back to the days of Jacob, when Jacob gave something to his son Joseph. But who is the Son now, and who is Jacob now? It is God, and the Son is Christ, and the material to be operated upon is the woman, just an ordinary woman, but a woman who has had five husbands, and therefore a very poor affair, a poor corrupt affair; yet the Lord is undertaking to make her material for the assembly. Following on this, we get a Mary Magdalene in chapter 24.

H.B. Would you say that Jesus sitting "as he was" stands in contrast to all that was seen in the woman?

J.T. That is true. He does not make any show. He does not make any pretence at all. He is just as He was, a tired Man. Fancy that, the Lord of glory, just a tired Man in the service of God!

J.K.P. Notwithstanding what enters into the history of this woman, does this chapter stand out in contrast to chapter 3, showing how the work of God comes forward rapidly in this person?

J.T. It is the converse of chapter 3 really, because it is the subjective side, whereas chapter 3 is the objective side, the Father's work; the Father's work in love. It is a question there of the love of God, not the love of Christ exactly, or the love of the Spirit, but the love of God, "God so loved"; that is chapter 3; it is the great objective thought in God. The difficulty with this woman was serious indeed, but the Lord bottomed the thing quickly, and brought out the greatest matter as a result; namely, the worship of God. So that we may look for the greatest things where difficulties arise, because God has great things in His mind for us and He wants us to be ready for them. This woman is the material ready for what God is doing, and she is yielding, undoubtedly under the guiding hand of the Spirit. She brings up the question of worship, a very unlikely subject for her to speak of, but the Lord does not say a word against it. He only says, "Go, call thy husband", as much as to say, this matter is so great your husband should be in it; what you are doing, he should be doing, otherwise there is something wrong.

L.L.P. Would the scripture, "where sin abounded grace has over-abounded", be fulfilled in her case?

J.T. Well, sin abounded in this woman as it does in everybody really, "for all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God". However sin abounded particularly with her, the Lord knew it, and He proceeded to undo everything. He was here to undo the works of the devil.

A.R. The woman says, "Sir, I see that thou art a prophet", showing how quickly she learned.

J.T. The thought of prophetic ministry came before us specially about twenty-five years ago and God has greatly blessed it. It was of God that the saints should take in the idea of prophetic ministry and have meetings for that purpose; they have been

greatly blessed of God; they bring out the action of God, the divine action in prophetic service, because God would work on prophetic lines. There is so much to be known, even future events entering into it.

A.A.T. Why does the Lord introduce the thought of eternal life with her?

J.T. Because that is the main subject in John, and He returns to it when the time comes for it. But then she had introduced the question of divine service, a matter that an ordinary woman would not bring up. He does not say, You should not speak of that; He takes her on at once. The Father, He says, seeks worshippers. She had talked about worship, but the Lord says, The Father seeks worshippers, and He seeks them to worship Him in spirit and in truth.

V.C.L. Would you say a word as to why in this section which is the sphere of the Son's operations, we get the word water, or an allied term used about twenty-four times in the verses read? Is there something significant for us to understand as to the freedom of the Spirit where the Son is made way for?

J.T. Very good. John has his own way of emphasising things and we do well to observe them, as with this question of water. Now it says, in verse 6, "It was about the sixth hour. A woman comes out of Samaria to draw water. Jesus says to her, Give me to drink", as much as to say, I am in need too, I am in need of water; you give Me to drink. But then it says further, "For his disciples had gone away into the city that they might buy provisions". Why did they all go? Why should they all need to go to buy provisions? Well, they did and left Him alone, a most extraordinary thing, "The Samaritan woman therefore says to him, How dost thou being a Jew, ask to drink of me who am a Samaritan woman? for Jews have no intercourse with Samaritans",

as if the Lord did not know, "Jesus answered and said to her, If thou knewest the gift of God". Do you know anything about that? That is in effect what the Lord says. She had seemed to know everything so far; she knew about the difference between the Samaritans and the Jews, but then the Lord says, "If thou knewest the gift of God", do you know anything about that? that is the next thing.

G.H. Would that bring out the Lord's skilfulness in the way He approached the woman? "Give me to drink".

J.T. That is right.

Ques. Is there anything in the fact that Abraham's servant approached Rebecca similarly?

J.T. In Genesis 24, you mean. That brings up the whole burning subject, because that man, Abraham's servant, was a type of the Spirit of God Himself. Abraham's servant was very particular as to what he should do about this matter of water.

Ques. Would you say that it is the desire of all three divine Persons, at the present time especially, to be refreshed in this way, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit?

J.T. That is right.

A.N.W. It is striking that in view of His asking for a drink the Lord should say, "The Father seeketh". The economy seems to bring all three Persons into it.

J.T. So the Lord says, "If thou knewest the gift of God"; a marvellous thing! It is said in Romans to be eternal life; "the gift of God is eternal life".

E.A.L. This woman does not seem to be personalised in this chapter at all. There seem to be thirteen mentions of woman; the Lord uses it just once, after she confesses that He was a prophet. The other references to His speaking to her are all impersonal. Would you help us in that?

J.T. You mean it is impersonal because her name is not mentioned? But the word woman is the point. The Lord used it in addressing His mother in chapter 2. He used the very same word, woman. It is a very noble word, it is next to man.

E.A.L. He does not call her 'woman' until she confesses that He is a prophet.

J.T. Just so, then He recognises her as a woman, a very noble word that she is entitled to. Of course, the whole matter the Lord is working out hinges on the fact that she is a woman.

E.A.L. When the men of the city return they speak of her as the woman; they heard her confess the Lord, they got help through her.

J.T. She was completely changed. She left her water-pot, giving up her calling altogether, and going out to the men. Well, now, the Lord says, You can be used. He had already said, I am the Christ. He says to her, so to speak, You say, When the Christ comes He will tell us all things, but I am He! "I who speak to thee am he". Wonderful! It is a question of operations, the Christ as the great Operator of God, the Christ, and she is coming to that, she is coming into His operations.

J.VanS. Is that what the Lord had in mind in saying, "If thou knewest the gift of God"? He at once refers to who He is, and then to what He would be able to give, living water.

J.T. Did she know it, though? "If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is". It is marvellous that He should bring that in! The greatest things are brought in, and she has to do with them.

J.H.P. Is it significant that these remarks as to the refreshment of a divine Person are addressed to a woman?

J.T. It is marvellous that He does not object to her bringing up the matter of worship, though to answer it the whole moral question must be brought

up. Persons go to places which have a steeple, that they call places of worship, yet they have no right on moral lines to have any part in the worship of God.

R.P. I would like some help on the feminine side of the service of God.

J.T. In result, the feminine side is represented in all christians, in all the saints, and the masculine side is represented in Christ alone. In full result that is the position, "His wife has made herself ready", and it is man and woman; the Man is Christ and the woman is the assembly. That is what is in the mind of God, and in the Lord's mind in this chapter. The feminine side is in the saints who form the assembly, and the masculine side is in Himself as Man, "For God is one, and the mediator of God and men one, the man Christ Jesus", 1 Timothy 2:5.

Ques. Going back to God's operations in Genesis, woman became the counterpart of man, so in that way the assembly is the counterpart of Christ, would you say?

J.T. Quite so; that is what the Lord is aiming at here. But that is especially Paul's line, while John is operating in connection with it, bringing out the kind of material that forms it. That is what John has in mind; so that we have Mary Magdalene in chapter 20, and the Samaritan woman here, and the Lord's own mother in chapter 2; and several others too, including Mary of Bethany, in this most wonderful book.

S.McC. Had you anything special in mind in connection with the bearing of eternal life on the feminine side?

J.T. I think it is just what comes out here, that it is a question of living water, what He would give. She could give an ordinary drink of water, but what could He give! "If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that says to thee, Give me to drink, thou

wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water". That is the great point to have in mind. This matter of living water comes up in the book of Revelation. Here the water springs up, but in chapter 6 we shall see the idea of eternal life in the sustenance of it is in the bread that comes down. It comes down from heaven, and the bread is Christ.

A.N.W. Is that not the point in John 3? I think you were saying that it is His being given in John 3:16, but the water springs up and it is on the feminine subjective side in John 4.

J.T. That is right. It springs up here.

S.J.H. Why is the word become put in verse 14? "Shall become in him".

J.T. It suggests the possibility of change. John the evangelist says, "I became in the Spirit"; and it is said of the Lord Jesus in chapter 1 that the Word became flesh, showing the possibility of change. So here the water changes, it becomes a fountain. "The water which I shall give him shall become in him a fountain of water, springing up into eternal life". There is some marvellous mysterious effect brought about in that something becomes something different in a person. The water springs up into eternal life, showing that here the great thought of eternal life has an upward movement; but in chapter 6 it is not an upward movement but a downward movement, the Son of man came down from heaven and gives His life, His flesh for the life of the world.

J.K.P. These operations seem to commence with the idea of the sixth hour; and then the Lord goes on to mention that "the hour is coming and now is". Is that linked on with the urgency of coming into what is current in the Spirit's operations at this present time?

J.T. Just so. We were talking of geography in verse 5, but this is a matter of time. The question

of time and the question of geography both come into this chapter, and all that is of great importance.

E.P. Would you say that eternal life as presented here is essential and basic to the enjoyment of the full Christian position?

J.T. It is basic just as new birth is basic to eternal life. Here eternal life is basic to the true Christian position and basic to the service of God.

S.McC. We must have the Spirit to enjoy eternal life.

J.T. I would certainly say that. The water here is the Spirit, and it becomes a fountain; it is springing up into everlasting life.

Ques. May I ask a little more about the matter of refreshment? The sixth hour was mentioned just now, which was the hour that the Lord entered upon the darkness that came upon the whole land. It was just at this hour that the Lord says to the woman, "Give me to drink". Is there some connection, would you say?

J.T. There must be. You are talking about the Lord's death and it is a question of time as we were saying, and of how God uses time. He made it, and He was the first to use it. And so the Lord's supper came in in time, on the first day of the week when the disciples came together to break bread. With anyone wanting to break bread today, the moral question must come up, as to whether she or he is fit to break bread. The Lord brought it up with this woman.

V.C.L. The woman says, "Sir, I see that thou art a prophet". Would that indicate that she has been born anew and therefore sees the kingdom of God? And then when she says at the end, "Is not he the Christ?" would that suggest that she has been born of water and of Spirit and has entered the kingdom?

J.T. Well, you might say that.

Ques. You were speaking just now in connection with persons being fit to break bread. As we know, no one should break bread who has not the Spirit. How would you detect that a person has the Spirit, especially young children?

J.T. First of all, I would say, do they like to be with the older brethren, or do they congregate by themselves, which is a baneful thing for children. I would say if they want to be with the older brethren, that is a good sign that they are fit to break bread; but if they associate only with the younger people it would be questionable, because they ought to know that the older brethren are likely to have the truth. It is not good to see young people flocking together and ignoring the older brothers and sisters.

Rem. I think that is very helpful, and one would especially look for it during special meetings such as these, that the young people should keep with the older brethren.

J.T. I would say that. It is a baneful thing to see them flocking together, nothing good comes out of it, laughing and talking, that is all, whereas they ought to keep with the older brethren.

B.W. We had the thought last night of discernment. Would that be seen in this woman that she discerned that the Lord was a prophet? And she discerned that she should leave her water-pot.

J.T. Very good, like Abigail. David said to her, "Blessed be thy discernment". Abigail was a discerner. She was a type of the assembly.

A.MacD. Would you say that discernment was seen in Rebecca too? She said, "Drink, my lord!" she discerned who was there.

J.T. Exactly, and she said, 'I will give your camels drink too', a great idea. Think of a girl like that ready to water ten camels; how much water they

would drink! But then we are in John 4, and the point here is that the Lord has the water. The woman has ordinary water and has a water vessel to carry it, but she left that behind her. The Lord had living water, and He calls it "the water that I shall give him", because the Giver is the Lord Himself. Who can define what that water is? because it changes by some action of the Lord's when it enters into the person of the believer. It becomes in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life. That is a mysterious thing, and that happens in all of us.

E.A.L. You have helped us to see that we cannot limit the scope of the types, as in Genesis 24 and the types of the Spirit there. Things change and develop, do they not?

J.T. Quite so. The question of wells comes in that chapter too, because Isaac was coming and going from the well Beer-lahai-roi. He was coming and going, as if he had plenty of leisure for Rebecca when she was coming to him. That suggests a wonderful matter; it needs leisure for that. If we are thinking of Christ as Head of the assembly, well, He has leisure for that, He is ready for us. The Lord says, I have time, I am coming and going from the well. It was that particular well at which Sarah's servant was found. She got benefit from that well, and the Lord is figuratively seen there, and here comes Rebecca. Well, that is wonderful! The Lord is ready for her.

S.M. David's mighty men broke through when David longed for a drink.

J.T. Quite so. They discerned the longing of David's heart. He was once a boy at that place-at Hebron, and they discerned his longings and broke through and got the drink, but he poured it out for a drink offering.

Ques. It says that this water springs up into everlasting life. That would be in the renewed man, would it not? It would not spring up in everybody.

J.T. It springs up in a meeting like this. Those of us who have come together form an area in which the Spirit of God can operate, and He is doing it at this present time. He is springing up, morally, in our minds.

W.P. This fountain is not only for our enjoyment but for God's enjoyment, is it not?

J.T. Indeed it is. God is working out everything for His own pleasure and His thoughts are to be consummated in the seventh day of the creation; that is to say, the millennium. That is God's day. God is going to have a wonderful time in the millennium.

W.W. And that is why the thought is brought in that God is seeking worshippers?

J.T. Exactly. The Lord says, "God is a spirit". He never said that to anybody before. In chapter 1, the word says, "No one has seen God at any time". Now the Lord says here, that "God is a spirit", and that the Father is seeking those who can worship Him in spirit and in truth. Are we among these worshippers? Are we all in the area of everlasting life? Because it is to be known right here on the earth where the brethren are together. We may have wonderful times, even touching what is in heaven.

A.R. It says, "The Father seeks such as his worshippers", but it does not say, God seeks them. It says, "God is a spirit; and they who worship him must worship him in spirit and truth". There is a difference, is there not?

J.T. It says, "The Father seeks such as his worshippers". The such; who are they? What are these people? They are persons who worship in spirit and in truth. That is to say, it is your spirit, your own spirit, but then there is truth attached to it. You

have the Spirit, but then you must have the idea of truth. The Father seeks worshippers on those lines.

J.S.Sr. The such applies to living persons, does it not?

J.T. It does, indeed. You add the idea of persons or vessels.

A.A.T. Does the Father have the first place in the economy?

J.T. Oh, surely. That is the order, you could not reverse the order. When you are baptising a person you could not reverse the order of Matthew 28. The order is the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Spirit; you could not reverse that order and say the name of the Spirit, and of the Son, and of the Father. Morally it must be done that way.

A.R. Does 'God' in this chapter include the three Persons in the Godhead?

J.T. I think so. It says, "God is a spirit", that includes the three Persons.

A.R. The One who is seeking worshippers is the Father.

J.T. The Father is specified, but then it does not say, the Father is a spirit, it says, "God is a spirit", "The Father seeks such as his worshippers".

Ques. "But the hour is coming and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father". What time is that?

J.T. Now. It is the present time. It has been so far approximately two thousand years. The time will cease presently, but the now is the present time; that is to say, we are in it, a wonderful time.

A.R. The fact that we worship God as God, which includes the three divine Persons, ought to help us in regard to worshipping the Spirit by Himself, do you think?

J.T. Yes.

B.W. So that the truth regarding the Spirit would enhance the service of God, would it not?

J.T. It would. The expression, "in spirit and in truth", refers to your own spirit; that is to say, you are spiritual, and you are characterised by the truth.

A.N.W. In contrast to the materialistic worship around and the false religion of Samaria.

J.T. Yes, the spiritualistic materialism that enters into man's worship.

A.D. Would you help us as to, "we have both access by one Spirit to the Father"?

J.T. The access, the instrumentality of the access is Christ Himself, it is "through him". But the movement is by the Spirit; for "through him we have both access by one Spirit to the Father". The word both refers to Jew and gentile, as if God intended that there should be both Jew and gentile in the assembly.

THE PERSON OF CHRIST AND THE SPIRIT (4)

John 6:27 - 58, 66 - 71

J.T. The last verses read are suggested because they bear so much as to their teaching on the whole chapter, and they are intended to appeal to us here and now as to whether we hold on to the truth or leave it. "From that time" it says, "many of his disciples went away back and walked no more with him. Jesus therefore said to the twelve, Will ye also go away?" Peter's reply is, "Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast words of life eternal". So it is in regard to this appeal that these final verses are read, because they should come home to us as to continuance in the truth. They are addressed to the twelve, and Judas is in mind as the traitor, showing how we are to be challenged by the truth in this sense. It is a very long chapter, 71 verses, but the words of eternal life govern the whole chapter.

J.S.Sr. This side is the eating rather than drinking, is it not?

J.T. Yes, the idea too of the bread of life coming down.

S.McC. In the course of these meetings you have stressed more than once the thought of eternal life in John 6 as connected with what comes down. Would you open out a little more what is on your mind in connection with the coming down?

J.T. I think it ought to be borne in mind that eternal life in the main is for the earth. It is linked up with heaven, of course, hence the fourth chapter makes much of the water of life springing up, so that we have to keep the two thoughts in mind so as to have right balance. Eternal life is really here where death is, but at the same time there is the power to raise us up, however long we may have to

wait. The last day will see it consummated; that we are to be raised up. The bread of life is to maintain us in life here where the testimony is, hence the first verse that we read; "Work not for the food which perishes, but for the food which abides unto life eternal, which the Son of man shall give to you; for him has the Father sealed, even God". It is a question of food or sustenance where the testimony is, and we are not to be making the natural everything, but what abides unto life eternal.

C.A.M. I was wondering whether it would be right to connect the thought of the springing up, in chapter 4, with the words 'abide' and 'dwell' that so constantly occur in this passage; as to whether we reach a sort of objective in that way as to eternal life?

J.T. Just so, it abides, it goes through, because the millennial world will be a world of men as we are in flesh and blood, but then there has to be some change in order to condition us for eternity; and therefore the idea of continuance and of abiding, that death will not overtake us as a penalty, that we are to be raised up. There is a certainty as to it; we are to be raised up at the last day.

A.N.W. The Lord speaks of the Spirit in the chapter as quickening, "It is the Spirit which quickens". He has to say, "The flesh profits nothing". Would you say where the Spirit comes in in this matter? Is it that He comes into every apprehension we may have of this and every other feature of the truth?

J.T. The question therefore is whether the Lord Jesus Himself comes along for us to change us, or whether the Spirit has a part in it too, and we may say, both are true. Romans 8 would say that the Spirit quickens, so that He too has a part in it.

A.N.W. "Shall quicken your mortal bodies", you mean.

J.T. Yes. Quickening our mortal bodies because of the Spirit which dwells in us. That would, of course, solve the question of eternity, and when we say eternity we must include eternal life; though eternal life in itself is more limited in thought. It has a peculiar application to the millennial day, in that God has a way of keeping men and women and children alive on this earth in that day. There will be ultimately new heavens and a new earth, "wherein dwells righteousness", according to 2 Peter, and he says we await that. But in the meantime God will have His way as to things. The course of time evidently is divided up into seven periods, and we are coming on to the seventh day which is, I think, the millennial day. We are living within the period of testimony, the assembly has part in that. But in the last day God will raise us up; we come into that according to the promise; we come into the idea of being raised up even if we have to wait for the last day. At the same time there will be a life here on earth in the millennial day in which God will have His way and show that He can keep men alive on the earth without dying. I do not believe the millennium will be marked by death at all, although a man may live one hundred years and yet die, but in general the idea in the millennium is eternal life.

S.McC. As to the millennium, do you regard it as quickly coming, or will there be a gradual development or change in things?

J.T. If we look at the prophetic side, I believe there will be a gradual change. But we have a complete idea as to the thing. The Lord Himself will not be here until the falling away happens, and I believe that will happen as soon as the assembly is taken to heaven. But then God will carry on His earthly thoughts as to Israel, His final thoughts, so that all Israel shall be saved; all Israel, meaning

the whole twelve tribes. The whole divine ideal will be realised in the millennial day. It will be a wonderful day, marked out to show the devil and his upholders what God can do in spite of conditions. He can in general abolish death and keep men and women and children alive on the earth, because children are alluded to in the millennial day, and old men and old women too. The Lord is saying here that the Father will draw all that shall come to Him; the Father therefore will act in relation to the Lord. There will be a means of dealing with death and keeping men, as such, alive on the earth. That will be a triumph for God. John intends to show that.

R.B.P. Would you say that the rapture and the resurrection are synchronous?

J.T. Well, they are for us, but what the Lord is going on to say here goes beyond that. That is, I believe the millennial day is in mind, but we come into something special; Israel is not, though Israel is in God's purpose, "beloved for the fathers' sakes", Romans 11:28. Things happen to them because of the fathers, but not so to us.

E.P. In relation to your references to Isaiah 65:20 and death as referred to there, do you mean that that is not what will generally obtain in the millennium? It says there that "the youth shall die a hundred years old". Are you saying that that will not generally obtain?

J.T. That is a sinner, that if a sinner arises, death will lay hold of him, but generally it is a question of life, and eternal life applies to that period. Eternal life applies to us too, but we are special; it applies in a peculiar way to us, because it leads into the assembly.

Ques. Will the millennial day be just confined to Israel?

J.T. No, there will be nations as well, and the nations shall walk in the light of the heavenly city.

S.J.H. When the Lord said to Nicodemus, "If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not"; would that include eternal life?

J.T. That is a question, but I do not believe He means eternal life, because He is going to speak of eternal life in the full sense of it. He is going to speak of it as applicable to the assembly, and that does not mean it is earthly. He speaks of springing up; the fourth chapter shows that the water that the Lord Jesus gives shall spring up into eternal life; "The water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life". So that we have to be cautious and see that we are saying what is true in the Scriptures; they are so broad; "Thy commandment is exceeding broad", said the psalmist (Psalm 119:96). Sometimes it is wider than at others, so to speak. But when we come to the assembly we come to the specialty; it is the heavenly side of things and eternal life leads to that. But at the same time eternal life leads to the millennium, which is the broadest sense, including the nations, "And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it". Revelation 21:24.

F.N.W. The definition of the assembly side of eternal life has come down to us from Mr. Darby, I believe. He spoke of the out-of-the-world, heavenly condition of relationship and being, in which eternal life consists.

J.T. That is right; that is what I would call the present application of eternal life, but it has a wider sense when we come to the millennial day, because the nations will be included as well, the nations shall walk in the light of the heavenly city. The heavenly city is the assembly, but it is in the heavenly place.

S.McC. In regard to what you said a moment ago as to the resurrection and what occurs in regard

to ourselves as of the assembly, do you look for another operation of resurrection power in regard of Israel following the rapture and before the millennium?

J.T. I think that is the truth. There will be the application of the idea according to this chapter in the last day. That is not the assembly day, it is the millennial day; the last day is a very extended idea, it is not a literal day, it is a question of a period of time.

A.N.W. Does not Matthew 25 support your statement that the nations shall come into eternal life? The nations are brought into it there. The paragraph begins with the Son of man coming in His glory, and "all the nations shall be gathered before him". The section closes with the words, "Then shall he answer them saying, Verily I say to you, Inasmuch as ye have not done it to one of these least, neither have ye done it to me. And these shall go away into eternal punishment, and the righteous into life eternal".

J.T. "Into life eternal", that is very good; it clarifies the whole position, that eternal life is the thing they go into. The righteous go into it, whereas it says, in chapter 3, as to the persons who die not subject to the Son, that the wrath of God abides on them. The righteous have their own place and they go, not to heaven, but into eternal life.

R.B.P. Then the reference to the last day in John 11 would primarily refer to Israel?

J.T. That is right, that was what they knew; that is the thing they were all thinking about, what Israel would come into.

A.R. Would the two resurrections be seen in Revelation 20? "The rest of the dead did not live till the thousand years had been completed. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy he who has part in the first resurrection: over these the second

death has no power; but they shall be priests of God and of the Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years".

J.T. So that the first resurrection is an extended period, just as we were saying; it is a day, as it were; many things happen in it. You cannot say that it is a question of a physical day, but a period of time in which things happen. It is classified there as the first resurrection, and blessed are they who have part in that.

G.H. It says in John's epistle, "We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren". Would that really be eternal life, do you think?

J.T. That would be what we are enjoying this afternoon, perhaps between the meetings too. It is a question of life functioning as we are together in the Spirit, but that is not the full thought, that is only in principle.

S.McC. In regard to the general teaching in this chapter as to eating the flesh and drinking the blood of the Son of man, is it to prepare us now spiritually and constitutionally in relation to this great thought of change?

J.T. I was thinking of that. We are quite entitled to take on prophetic subjects as they did at the beginning of the revival in 1825 and 1827 when they had meetings in Dublin to look into the prophetic word. That was quite right, and it opened up the spiritual map to us. But we are not confined to the spiritual map in this day; we are thinking primarily and almost altogether of the assembly, of our coming into that, and of the service of God, as to our having part in that, carrying on the divine ideas right into the millennium. As engaged with these thoughts we are in our own period. The apostle Paul said, that this salvation is sent to the gentiles and they will receive it. The Jews rejected it, but the gentiles

would receive it, and we are the gentiles who have received it; we are coming into the heavenly part.

S.McC. So that the teaching of this chapter involves the acceptance in our souls of the termination of a certain condition of things, does it not?

J.T. Well, both things are applicable in this chapter. It is very long and very comprehensive in its contents too, but what we are dealing with now is the prime thought of the assembly, and how this chapter deals with the assembly, and how we may come into the truth of it through the teaching of this chapter.

S.McC. I was thinking of the importance of the teaching to which you are alluding in this chapter, as bearing on the acceptance of it in our souls. It is hard, but as coming into the assembly we have to accept the termination of a certain condition of things, have we not?

J.T. Yes, quite, but I think the Lord's listeners were turning away because of the things He was saying. They could not follow them, but the question is whether we can follow them and make them good. I may say, I should like to go in for all that, and be truly in the assembly. But am I equal to it?

A.A.T. You used the expression, the present period. How do you cover that period, I mean when does it start?

J.T. It is the period of the assembly. It started from the time the salvation of God was sent to the gentiles, from that time in the book of Acts.

A.N.W. That is a period which would not appear on the prophetic map you were speaking of.

J.T. No, I would say in a certain way it may, but strictly speaking it is a period by itself that began not exactly at Pentecost, but when the salvation of God was transferred to the gentiles. At first it was according to Ephesians, that we both might have access, that is, Jew and gentile, but we would

not say that now. The apostle Paul would not say it if he were here. What is in mind now is the gentiles; there is hardly a Jew in the fellowship. There are one or two here now, and we thank God for them, but there are hardly more than a few. The bulk of the saints are gentiles, and God is going on with them. It is the time of the gentiles; "until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled", Luke 21:24.

S.M. Would that be like the day that the Lord has made?

J.T. "This is the day that Jehovah hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it", Psalm 118:24.

C.A.M. Referring to the change of condition in this chapter, it has connection with this flesh and blood condition, has it not? The Lord's flesh and the Lord's blood are separated, which involves a change in the condition of things that we are in at the moment. As to ourselves, does not the eternal life as it is dwelt on here involve our entering in some spiritual sense beyond our present flesh and blood condition?

J.T. Well, quite so. Peter for instance was in an ecstasy, he got into that condition; he was outside the reckonings of flesh and blood. That was common in the beginning, but it is not common now as it was then. A wonderful thing that it was so.

C.A.M. Does not the idea of being in an out-of-the-world condition involve something of that?

J.T. Yes, but it is not an ecstasy, an out-of-the-world condition is a condition that is suitable to us now, in this meeting for instance, or any meeting at all, such as that for the breaking of bread, or the ministry of the truth; it is an out-of-the-world condition, and the world has no part in it at all. Our attitude is out of the world and that means we are rejected of the world in a moral sense. We are still in flesh and blood, of course, but at the same time we are not moving on that line at all; we have

an access to heavenly things, to assembly things, and the more spiritual we are the more we shall enjoy them. It is a question of spirituality, not of literal ecstasy, but of the power of the Spirit in our inmost souls; and the more of us there are together the more it is enjoyed. So that we may say we have enjoyed eternal life this afternoon. We mean it just in a limited way, but it is there; that is to say, the Spirit of God is free amongst us.

H.B. When it is said of Enoch, that he was not, that is a moral idea, is it not?

J.T. Quite so, it means he was taken; God took him, it says. They missed him, I suppose. The neighbours there might miss him and ask, What has become of Enoch? Well, God had taken him. That is the fact the Spirit of God records. But before he was taken or translated "he has the testimony that he had pleased God", Hebrews 11:5. That is the moral side of it, that is the reason he was translated. What can we say today about Enoch or Elijah? We do not know. They are somewhere in the heavenly regions, but we cannot say more than that. Sleeping saints are there too, but not all; some of those that slept arose and came into the holy city, after the Lord's resurrection. How many arose we cannot tell, but they entered into the holy city and appeared to many. What has become of them? We cannot say. God has not been pleased to tell us, but it was true. The point morally is to seek to please God. He is looking for people who seek to please Him.

J.E.P. With regard to the out-of-the-world conditions, the Lord introduces in this chapter the names of all the divine Persons, suggesting to us, would you say, a realm in which divine operations are going forward in a practical way, and we come into that?

J.T. Yes, I think so; it is a practical time, and we are called to be practical and simple.

A.N.W. When He that restrains, and that which restrains are gone, things will move rapidly enough; surely they will move very rapidly when these restraining powers and persons are gone.

J.T. Quite.

S.M. This current exercise about the unions seems to be a special test to us in connection with working for food. The Lord says here, "Work not for the food which perishes". That is the test to us now; is it not?

J.T. That is the whole subject, with these unions, it is a question of the food. They are materialistic, but we are to learn to get out of that; we do not belong to that system of things at all.

S.M. We want to please God.

J.T. There is an out-of-the-world, heavenly condition of relationship and being in which eternal life consists. Well, we have part in that, and certainly it is not a question of food and raiment. It is a question of spiritual power and enjoyment implying the fellowship that we come into; the fellowship of the Spirit, it is called.

V.C.L. Verse 35 reads, "And Jesus said to them, I am the bread of life: he that comes to me shall never hunger, and he that believes on me shall never thirst at any time". Would you say a word as to the difference between the not hungering and the not thirsting?

J.T. It is just a question of the word, either thirst or hunger would have the same force; it is a question of what is eternal, of what never happens, that we never thirst and we never hunger. Surely that is enough for us, we get that relief in coming to Christ, because it is coming to Him now, it is not simply that He comes to us and takes us to heaven, which He will do, but our coming to Him, involving fellowship.

V.C.L. And does believing on Him involve the Holy Spirit for us?

J.T. Well, it does; the Spirit would come in to support that faith. But then the idea is faith whether we do believe, whether we are living in a faith condition. The millennium will not be a faith condition, it will be a condition of sight, but we are living in a faith condition now, so that the end of John's gospel says, "Blessed they who have not seen and have believed".

E.A.L. When they said to the Lord, "What should we do that we may work the works of God?" He answers, "This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he has sent".

J.T. That is the work of God, just so, to believe. We are living in a faith condition, whereas the millennium will be a sight condition.

A.R. So we should all be satisfied christians, should we not?

J.T. Quite so, never thirsting. We are all made to drink into one Spirit.

J.H.P. Would you say a word about the drawing of the Father?

J.T. That is the time we are in, the time of this drawing. We are in what is called the expanse. God called the expanse Heaven, and that is the area or region in which He is operating and we are in that now. It is a period of faith for us. The Old Testament was not that and the millennium will not be that, but for us it is a question of whether we are living by faith or by sight.

Ques. Is the period of faith, then, in some degree greater than the period of sight?

J.T. Oh, it is, clearly, that is what the Lord is saying here, that blessedness lies in those who believe without seeing.

L.L.P. Would the dignitaries of chapter 11 of Hebrews have reached beyond their dispensation; that is, do they belong to ours?

J.T. They anticipated our dispensation. The word faith governs all that section. They cannot be perfect without us; that is what the apostle says, "that they without us should not be made perfect". That shows the greatness of ourselves; that is of the assembly.

G.H. Do you mean that the expanse in Genesis 1 is like the period of faith?

J.T. No, that is not the idea, but it corresponds, it is the same idea as the expanse. He called the expanse Heavens. That was the area of God's operations then, but it is a question of what He is doing now; He is gathering out the assembly; that is what He is doing. Earlier than this, He was gathering out Israel, and many other things He was doing in the Old Testament times.

E.A.L. Would you say then that prophecy in ministry is an expansive idea, always expanding, so that we shall always be learning?

J.T. That is the idea. The word here is. "And they shall be all taught of God". That peculiarly applies to ourselves now.

S.McC. In connection with this food, He speaks of the bread of life, the bread from heaven, and of eating the flesh and drinking the blood of the Son of man. What distinction do you make in regard to these suggestions of food?

J.T. It is a question of appropriation; eating is just a question of appropriation, but it is a most vivid feature or picture of it. Are we appropriating what is within our reach? This chapter shows what is within our reach, and the greatest matter is the flesh of Christ and the blood of Christ. That is not the Lord's supper; the Lord distinguishes that from His Supper, although it bears on it.

E.P. Does eating the flesh of the Son of man and drinking His blood go beyond the type of the manna?

J.T. Certainly. It says, "Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness and died"; but then the Son of man has come in and He must be greater than everything else and every other person.

S.McC. Would the bread from heaven have the positive side more in mind, but the flesh of the Son of man more the negative side; that is, the ending of a certain condition of things?

J.T. I think the word heaven must have some weight there, bread from heaven shows the character of it, but then the flesh of Christ and the blood of Christ is a matter of literality, it involves that the Lord actually died. We are to appropriate it in the negative sense to separate us from the world.

A.N.W. In that way, would it not negate such an idea as that in verse 42 for instance, which might be in any mind? "And they said, Is not this Jesus the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we have known?".

J.T. That was all they had in their minds, that He was no different from anybody else, whereas we are dealing now with the spiritual side of things, and when the Lord speaks about His flesh being bread we have to see that it is a question of spiritual food which we appropriate for sustenance. Eating is simply a figure of appropriation, appropriating something that the Lord Jesus has provided for us in coming down from heaven and dying.

A.A.T. Is there something in it being said that it is the flesh of the Son of man?

J.T. We have often spoken about the use of that title in Ezekiel, that it is a question of the Lord's relations with man, and not simply with the Jews. If the Jews are to come into it at all they have to take the ground of being men; God will allow that

they shall come into the period that refers to the Son of man, the Son of man's period.

A.R. In regard to this matter of appropriation of the flesh and the blood, it is after He is dead, is it not? So that it is important to realise that we appropriate a dead Christ.

J.T. It has often been said that what is before us in the Lord's supper is a dead Christ. We come later in the service to a living Christ, gone up into heaven. "And has raised us up together, and has made us sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus".

S.McC. What is the force of verse 54, "He that eats my flesh and drinks my blood has life eternal, and I will raise him up at the last day"?

J.T. That means that you appropriate for two things; you appropriate for support in the sense of strength, and then you appropriate what satisfies you morally; that is, you are not dissatisfied, complaining; you are free; you are fully satisfied.

S.McC. How does eternal life come into that?

J.T. That is the point, that there is satisfaction in the sense of strength, the bread to strengthen man's heart, but then wine is to make his heart glad.

B.W. Would you say a person that is satisfied with divine things is in the good of eternal life?

J.T. Just so, he has means, he is not a theorist. You do not look at your bank book to satisfy yourself. You have food to satisfy you without anything else, the food the Lord supplies for you, and it is no less than Himself. His own body; that is to say He has died for us, as Paul says, He "loved me and gave himself for me".

W.W. We might be like the disciples on the line of unbelief, and saying, "This is an hard saying". His own disciples said that.

J.T. Just so, but Peter gives the answer, as if he were the great answerer of questions as to the Lord. He said, "Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast words of life eternal". That is what I was trying to say in the beginning, that we are dealing with words, not simply with paragraphs but the actual words, and they are words of life, words of eternal life.

S.McC. In verse 57, the Lord Jesus says, "As the living Father has sent me and I live on account of the Father, he also who eats me shall live also on account of me". Does the eating Him there refer to the appropriation of Christ as He now is?

J.T. I think the truth is advancing in this chapter; it is 'higher and higher yet', and when we come to the Father and the Son, and how the Father suggests the Son as food, I mean the life of Christ and the death of Christ, if the Father speaks about that we are on a higher level. They are acting together, and we are coming into what the action is; "he that eats my flesh and drinks my blood has life eternal". And then verse 57, "As the living Father has sent me and I live on account of the Father, he also who eats me shall live also on account of me". That is a higher thought, that is my position now, not simply that I am in fellowship, but I eat Christ; the Father gives me that food. The Lord says, "I live on account of the Father", and we live on account of Christ. That is the word, "on account of". The Lord says, "As the living Father has sent me and I live on account of the Father, he also who eats me shall live also on account of me". Notice "the living Father", it is a remarkable thought; not simply 'the Father', but "the living Father" and then "on account of". So that I am living on account of Christ or by virtue of the fact that He has supplied this food for me. It is the very highest level, you might say, as to eating.

S.McC. What you have said is very helpful. It involves Christ in glory, does it not?

J.T. Just so; coming down to where we are and providing food for us in that living way, "The living Father", I do not know that I ever noticed it more than I do now, that it is the title, "living Father".

R.P. Say a little more as to it.

J.T. Well, I do not know what to say; there it is, just one of the things that enter into this long chapter that is so precious, because it is a leading up, it is a steady leading up to the higher level in John 6. There are seventy-one verses about this great subject so that we should be entirely here on account of the Father, here in life as living people by the Father's power.

V.C.L. In verse 32, it says, "My Father gives you the true bread out of heaven", but in verse 58, "This is the bread which has come down out of heaven", as though it would be something further.

J.T. It is further. It is a further thought in the chapter; this matter of the living Father and living on account of the Father, all that wording is what we might call 'higher and higher yet'. The chapter ascends as we go to the very highest level short of the assembly and the heavenly side of the truth. So that there is no difference at all between the heavens and the earth in that sense, we go out of the earthly side into the heavenly; our place is heaven. He has raised us up together and made us to sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ.

W.S. Does Mr. Darby's note help in that connection? It reads, as to the expression "on account of", the sense is, 'by reason of what the Father is and His living, that I live by reason of His being and living'.

J.T. Very good, showing the high level we are on now.

S.McC. What you said a little while ago, helps as to the heavenly bearing of eternal life in John's gospel, while it is for the earth. Is there not a distinctive heavenly touch in John's gospel in relation to eternal life?

J.T. There is a heavenly touch; that is why it is brought in, I think, in chapter 3, as to "the Son of man who is in heaven"; the Son of man, mark, not the Son of God, but the Son of man. His real manhood is implied, and that He is in heaven. It is a mysterious thing.

S.McC. So that eternal life as we enjoy it now in the assembly is really on a much higher plane and level than it will be in the millennium.

J.T. That is just the truth. It is on a higher level than it will be in the millennium. The millennium is part of the division of time, you might say, the seventh day; it is the last day here in this chapter. As linked with the first of Genesis it belongs to the great period of divine operations in the expanse.

J.H.P. Is the high level that you speak of seen in the last sentence of verse 58, "he that eats this bread shall live for ever"?

J.T. Quite so, "He that eats this bread".

A.A.T. In an afternoon like this, do we touch heaven?

J.T. We do touch heaven, because the Spirit of God is here, and if He is amongst us, He brings everything with Him. You cannot add to or subtract from a divine Person; He brings everything with Him. If the Lord was here, He would bring everything with Him, and so with the Father. Divine Persons take you to finality and totality. When we come to the eternal state of things, they will all be there, and there abidingly, eternally, and we shall be there too.

J.K.P. There is a distinct contrast in verse 58 between the old dispensation in which it says your fathers ate and died, and this special dispensation to which I understand you are referring now, in which death is not introduced at all morally. It is a question of living for ever.

J.T. Quite so, we touch that too in some little degree; it is always a small degree, we may, say, but it is wonderful that it can be touched. Take Peter; he was in an ecstasy; he was waiting for a meal, and he said in effect, I will go upstairs and pray, and as he did so he became in an ecstasy. Well, it is wonderful that that could have happened. That is the beginning of the dispensation we are in now. It has nearly ended, but that is what was at the beginning; so that we have to watch and see the possibilities.

E.P. You mean that we touch eternal conditions and that is what really gives character to eternal life here.

J.T. That is so, and the assembly is no less than that, it is no less than the place where we enjoy eternal conditions. It is never an earthly thing, it is a heavenly thing, the house of God is heavenly.

S.McC. So that in the assembly properly speaking death does not exist; it is a deathless state of things?

J.T. Just so, deathless. That is a fine expression; we used it years ago. We have come into a deathless condition spiritually.

E.P. "And everyone who lives and believes on me shall never die", John 11:26. Is that our outlook?

J.T. That is the idea exactly, "never die".

A.D. So the Lord says later on in chapter 17, "I am no longer in the world, and these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name which thou hast given me, that they may be one as we".

J.T. John 17 is a wonderful chapter, one of the most wonderful, it is the Lord's prayer, not the one that you get in Matthew. John 17 is the Lord's own prayer.

S.J.H. Do I understand you to say the title "living Father" is peculiar to our dispensation?

J.T. I do not know where else it is, I am not sure that it is elsewhere; it just comes in here with a peculiar touch to emphasise the Father; He is the living Father. He is the living God too, but this gives an added touch to what is said.

THE PERSON OF CHRIST AND THE SPIRIT (5)

John 7:37 - 39; Revelation 1:9 - 20; Revelation 3:7 - 13

J.T. Our subject now is not to be based simply on the scriptures read; our subject is the Spirit of God Himself in view of what has come to the attention of the brethren for some months past, that there might be a clarification of it in our minds, and a readiness to give the Holy Spirit His place as a divine Person, as equal with the Father and with the Son. And so many scriptures will doubtless come before us in this inquiry. However, certain things that are outstanding ought to be remarked, and one is that the Old Testament has the same value as the New Testament. The value of the Old Testament is that it is Scripture, and the Scripture says itself, "Every scripture is divinely inspired, and profitable for teaching, for conviction, for correction, for instruction in righteousness; that the man of God may be complete, fully fitted to every good work", 2 Timothy 3:16, 17. The Old Testament therefore should come into view a little, particularly the first chapter of the Bible, that is the first of Genesis, and then some passages in the book of Ezekiel where a great deal is said about the Spirit of God, and of speaking to Him, and of His speaking to others. In the New Testament, in the book of Acts, in the section referring to the introduction of the gentiles, we have the Spirit speaking to Peter, although it does not say definitely at first that the Spirit spoke to him, but clearly the voice is the Spirit's voice, the context shows it, that the Spirit is speaking to Peter, and Peter speaks to the Spirit. That is a point that we ought to be clear about. Moreover it is said in the book of Revelation, in chapter 14, that a voice is heard from heaven, "Blessed the dead who die in the Lord from henceforth". That voice clearly bears

on the Spirit, because the Spirit answers immediately as if the voice were to Him, "Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours". These are only illustrations of what may be said as to the blessed Spirit of God as an Object of conversation on our part; that is, to be conversed with. In type Genesis 24 is very clear that the chief servant of Abraham is a type of the Holy Spirit, and that he conversed with Rebecca, that is to say, the Holy Spirit in type conversed with Rebecca who is a type of the assembly. Well, many other passages might be introduced, but I believe what is said is enough now to have in our minds, so that the Spirit may have His full place with us. He has it among the saints in general, so far as I can hear, particularly in this country, and in Australasia, and in the British Isles, and so far as I know on the continent of Europe too, and in the West Indies. The general thought of conversing with the Spirit is laid hold of and practised and enjoyed. The brethren are speaking of having great enjoyment in the fellowship that they have with the blessed Spirit of God, and why should they not have, because the Spirit of God can help us, and does help us? He adds His help to our weaknesses.

J.S.Sr. Would Matthew 5:17 help us in connection with establishing the Old and New Testaments on the same basis? "Think not that I am come to make void the law or the prophets; I am not come to make void, but to fulfil".

J.T. Very good.

Rem. It has been said sometimes that Paul did not say much about the Spirit on the line on which we are now speaking, but one has noticed how he does give place to the Spirit in this way. Just to mention one instance in Isaiah 6, it says, "I heard the voice of the Lord saying, ... Go, and thou shalt say unto this people". When Paul quotes that in Acts 28, he says, "Well spoke the Holy

Spirit", suggesting thus that the Holy Spirit is speaking today and Paul is making much of that?

J.T. Quite so; you get many instances of that kind, where the Holy Spirit is used to convey the scriptures of the Old Testament, as for instance in Hebrews 10.

S.McC. Is it not interesting that in the section read in John 7 the matter as to the Spirit comes up in relation to Jesus teaching in the temple? Much has been made in the recovery of the truth in our day as to the temple and teaching in that light. In verse 14, "Jesus went up into the temple and taught". He is teaching in the temple. We get letters from all parts enquiring as to this matter of the Spirit, but do you not think it is important that the brethren should see the gain of enquiring as to it in relation to the temple?

J.T. I would refer to Luke 2 in regard to that, as to Simeon; he came by the Spirit into the temple, he is a man in Jerusalem, a characteristic man in Jerusalem and he came by the Spirit into the temple; and when he came Mary and Joseph brought in the Lord Jesus, and he took the Lord Jesus into his arms and blessed them. He blessed them.

A.R. Is not this matter of speaking to the Spirit as seen in Acts 10, worth reading? It says in verse 13, "And there was a voice to him, Rise, Peter, slay and eat. And Peter said, In no wise, Lord; for I have never eaten anything common or unclean. And there was a voice again the second time to him, What God has cleansed, do not thou make common". Then it goes on to say in verse 19, "But as Peter continued pondering over the vision, the Spirit said to him, Behold, three men seek thee; but rise up, go down, and go with them, nothing doubting, because I have sent them". That clearly shows there was a conversation going on between the Spirit and Peter.

J.T. I would say that clearly.

S.McC. It is rather interesting that in John 7 we have not a direct text quoted, but the Lord says, "He that believes on me, as the scripture has said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water".

J.T. The Lord leaves it open, and He is saying in effect to us this afternoon, Why do you not study your Bibles, and see if you can find that scripture? I think we can; I believe we have not far to go. In Genesis 24, Isaac was coming and going from the well. There are many wells in Genesis, and there we begin with the thought of rivers; and there are other such scriptures to indicate that the idea of rivers is important in the Old Testament, and they are alluded to in this chapter; the Lord Himself stressing for our benefit, that the Scriptures have said so and so, and that if we look into them we shall find that it is so. The Lord did not mean anything else but that the Scriptures were findable.

Rem. The footnote on the word 'believe' indicates that it is 'characteristically believing', "He that believes", is characteristic. Is that state necessary in order to reach the great truth as to addressing the Spirit?

J.T. Just so. It is, as it were, round about the Spirit, the Spirit is the centre of things, the centre of the inquiry. The subject is the Spirit really, "But this he said concerning the Spirit".

J.H.P. Does not the expression "Jesus stood and cried", suggest how urgent a matter this is, and how we should move quickly as to it?

J.T. Yes. These phrases are so unusual that the Lord should be seen standing and crying. You find it in some other instances, but not many. I am glad you mentioned it; it is very urgent.

S.J.H. Would you say, that the last, the great day, was very empty actually, but the Lord is bringing

in at the last, in the great day, these very choice things?

J.T. He has something great to bring in, the word great is not to be overlooked, the Lord has something great to say Himself as to what He had in His mind. He had said already that "the scripture has said", but He Himself had something great to say. He had what we are engaged with this afternoon, and what has been engaging us for months past, and do not we all regard it as great?

S.J.H. I was thinking of that, and the fact of urgency being mentioned; it is the last day, and as we think to be near the end, the choicest things are coming out.

S.McC. It is very interesting, that in the climax of the revival in Nehemiah the culminating points of the first choir in chapter 12 are the fountain gate and the water gate, eastward. Does that not fit in with the present moment in the truth?

J.T. I think the Lord would say that is right, and I would follow what I believe the Lord would say, that there is much in that suggestion as to these gates. Linking on with Genesis 24, the idea of water there is very prominent, and Isaac was occupied with it really, he was coming and going to the well Beer-lahai-roi, occupied with it at that particular time.

A.R. The revival took place in Ezra and Nehemiah in the days of the feast of tabernacles, and the same idea is in this chapter. It is the feast of tabernacles, like the end of the dispensation, is it not?

J.T. Yes, quite so, the feast of tabernacles is the last of the feasts.

A.R. I was wondering if it fits in with what you were saying yesterday about the seventh day?

J.T. It does.

L.L.P. Would you attach any importance to the fact that some of the most outstanding women in the Scriptures got their start at wells?

J.T. I believe you are right. We have been looking at that in New York; the types of the assembly in the whole Bible, beginning at the first of Genesis with Adam and Eve, and it is remarkable how many women are seen at wells, identified with water.

L.L.P. Yes. Leah and Rebecca; and Moses, too, met his wife Zipporah at a well. He served her, and his father-in-law was a man that was able to link on and give his daughter a right start and a right link. And then with Rebecca, the servant tested her at the well, as to whether she fitted in with what he required.

J.T. In the fourth of John, there is another.

A.N.W. Would Achsah be on that line?

J.H.P. Rachel was connected with a well, and she was a shepherdess.

J.T. A shepherdess, quite so. Jacob rolled away the stone from the well as soon as she came to light.

A.B. In the end of John 4 which we did not read, the Lord would seem to make it urgent to the disciples that the reaping time is here. I wondered whether in the last twenty years we have perhaps had the reaping in relation to the Father, and then later to the Son, and whether this might not be the last field to be reaped.

J.T. The field of the Spirit, very good. I hope we all understand that. Now you have to say a little more because it is all so vast.

A.B. I just wondered whether this field in relation to the Spirit might not be the last field to be reaped, and therefore it is an urgent matter.

J.T. I think it is very urgent; and another thing I am reminded of, the order in which these great subjects have come out. We had eternal life before most of us were in the field at all, and we have been

engaged with it for a long time. Then after that we had the sonship of Christ; we used to speak of the eternal Son, but that has been set aside, for the sonship of Christ refers to Him in manhood, not in the eternal state at all, but in manhood. So that we may say the first field is eternal life, and the second field is the sonship of Christ, and now this third field is the Spirit of God, and we want to get the full bearing of that this afternoon.

A.N.W. If we could only be gleaners! The word was to the gleaner to go to no other field, but glean where the reapers are.

J.T. The field of Boaz.

W.P. In relation to the urgency of the matter, is it not interesting that three of the types in the Old Testament were seen in peculiar activity? Rebecca was one, and Achsah was another, and Abigail was another. Do they help us to see the urgency with which matters are to be taken on?

J.T. They do.

A.R. Do you think the urgency of this matter of the Spirit is in view of the rapture?

J.T. I think so.

Ques. Regarding the order of Genesis 26 following chapter 24, which brings to light the assembly, in chapter 26 the wells are dug, suggesting that that is the way the truth has come out today, like the new well that was dug, would you say?

J.T. Quite so; and Isaac named that well the Broadways; so that things are enlarged in chapter 26. The wells that Abraham had dug were closed up, the Philistines had done that, but Isaac was opening them up again, and in his services God helps him to get to the Broadways. There is plenty of liberty now in this new well that is opened up. And then another thing in that chapter is that the Philistines came to see Isaac and he sent them away; he had moral power to send them away, and they went away in

peace from him. The idea in our meetings is to promote peace, not strife, but peace.

E.T. Is this expression, "out of his belly", linked up with the idea of assimilation? It is not out of his head, it is out of his belly.

J.T. Well, quite so. It comes from the inwards where nourishment is yielded, and where the strength comes from; that is what the idea is I think, that there is something coming out in power. It is not that we are weaklings. It is the believer that is alluded to here; "he that believes"; he is in power, he is not a weakling, he did not come just yesterday. In fact he is like Ittai the Gittite, he was going with David anyway. David says, 'You came to us but yesterday'; but he says, 'I want to be with you'. He had power.

Ques. Does the fact that the Lord speaks of the Spirit on the last day suggest that there is something lacking, and that the Spirit is intended to supply that?

J.T. The whole position amongst the Jews at that time was empty. What was there? And so in the second of Acts it was as the feast of Pentecost was running its course, that the Spirit came in at that point, the mighty voice from heaven was heard, and it was like unto the hard breathing of God, so as to announce the wonderful fact that the dispensation was inaugurated.

S.McC. Do you think that we need to be like Ezekiel, amenable to leadership in relation to the truth? In the latter part of Ezekiel, he is led in, he is led around, he is led without, but the last feature of movement is in chapter 47, "And he brought me back to the door of the house; and behold, waters issued". The last feature of turning and movement is connected with what suggests the Spirit.

J.T. Those rivers undoubtedly suggest the very thing that is in mind here in John 7; the very thing

that we did not know, but that the Lord meant to convey. I believe it is suggested in Ezekiel, in the waters to swim in, a river that could not be passed over; what can we get more than that to illustrate the idea of rivers flowing out?

B.W. Would 1 Corinthians 2 have a bearing on that, communicating spiritual things by spiritual means? The communicating there is expounding, and I was thinking of what comes to light in a time like this and the authority of it.

J.T. "Spiritual means"; that means that we are able to converse profitably, and I might say intelligently. I do not believe that readings of this type especially marked the beginning of christianity, but they are much in evidence now; the revival has brought them out. These are conversational meetings, and this conversational ministry is mentioned in Acts 20. We are in the time of conversational ministry, and it means that the persons who take part in these readings have intelligence and are able to communicate with one another, as it says in the next to the last chapter of the Old Testament, "Then they that feared Jehovah spoke often one to another; and Jehovah observed it, and heard".

B.W. It goes on to say in that scripture in Corinthians, "But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him; and he cannot know them because they are spiritually discerned".

J.T. That is a good passage to govern our readings as we call them.

L.W. Is there a suggestion as to the activity of the Spirit in verse 20 of Exodus 23? "Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee to the place that I have prepared. Be careful in his presence, and hearken unto his voice: do not provoke him, for he will not forgive your transgressions; for my name is in him. But if

thou shalt diligently hearken unto his voice, and do all that I shall say, then I will be an enemy to thine enemies, and an adversary to thine adversaries".

J.T. That is an allusion undoubtedly to the Spirit; I think, however, that it is an Angel; the Spirit is kept more or less out of view, the Angel is in mind. He has to be regarded; they have to be careful in his presence, because he is not empty handed. I think it has direct application to the exact time that it was written, but its application typically is to what we are going through now, only that the Spirit is keeping Himself out of view, as it were, because it is an Angel that is in mind.

S.J.H. In reference to the rivers, would it be right to take the view that the recovery will be so complete that we shall get back to the thought of God in the four rivers that came out of Eden?

J.T. That helps. Why do we not think of these things? The Lord would say to us, 'You are enquiring about John 7, but when I spoke about rivers of living water, why did you not think about those rivers in Genesis and Ezekiel?' So that the Scriptures are full of what the Lord had in mind.

F.N.W. You were referring to Genesis 26, and there is a well dug at the end of that chapter following the ones that are named. Is it indicated that that might be Isaac's well, not one of Abraham's that is re-dug? Do you feel that the help we are receiving as to the Holy Spirit now is distinctive to this time, or is it a re-digging of what was known in the apostles' days?

J.T. I do not know whether I could show from the Scriptures that it was known then, although I think what Peter says would indicate that he knew, for the Spirit was speaking and he spoke to Him, I think that is the truth.

E.A.L. Stephen was called a man full of faith and the Holy Spirit, and he says, "O stiffnecked and

uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers, ye also". Some today seem to recognise the types that we speak of, such as the type in Genesis 24, but then they say that the types are being taken out of their scope. Has not ministry helped us to see that we cannot limit the scope of what divine Persons may do? Is that not really an uncircumcised heart operating? I mean they are not taking on the truth because they are resisting it.

J.T. Yes, they are letting the Old Testament go, so to speak, and reducing it to a lower level than the New Testament. I know, because I have had to do with them. One of the first things I had to do with in the matter was in John 10, where they said to the Lord that He blasphemed because He said He was the Son of God. But the Lord says, that "If he called them gods to whom the word of God came ... do ye say of him whom the Father has sanctified and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest, because I said, I am Son of God?". The Lord makes the point that it is a question of words, and the Lord is convicting them of violating Scripture, so He says, "The scripture cannot be broken", and that is the great word, "The scripture cannot be broken". The Old Testament is the Scripture, and it cannot be broken.

S.McC. And so the Lord is referring here to the Old Testament Scriptures.

J.T. There were none others when the Lord was here, and then after the Lord arose there were none others, and after He went to heaven there were very few, and then the Scriptures began to be written.

A.C.W. In 1 Timothy 4 we read, "But the Spirit speaks expressly, that in latter times some shall apostatise from the faith, giving their mind to

deceiving spirits and teachings of demons". The Spirit is speaking there expressly.

J.T. The Spirit speaks expressly, quite so.

E.P. In relation to our brother's question as to this truth being known in apostolic days are we not being recovered to the truth as it was in the beginning? It seems in the book of Acts that persons were very familiar with the Spirit and His movements in the testimony?

J.T. Well, no doubt, we are being recovered, but I would not make it entirely what is recovered, because there are fresh things coming out; the Lord has been reserving things to bring them out in view of the end. Of course the word in Isaiah applies in a general way, "a remnant shall return"; that is what Shear-jashub means. That is the burden of the book of Isaiah, but then we do not need to limit ourselves to the idea of remnant, because God is God, and He is insisting on the fact that He is God; and the Holy Spirit is God, and the three Persons are, each one of Them God, for there is only one God; and there are fresh things coming out, things that perhaps the early christians did not touch; and why should we not allow that liberty to the Lord in our day?

W.W. It is a great thing to see that God is not limited to what was formerly known; it is a question of accumulation, and God never returns to just the previous status, does He? He always brings out something more.

J.T. Quite so, why should He not?

A.P. In the formula for baptism, baptising them "to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit", does not that involve the knowledge of each divine Person; and severally, and in the order in which they come? Our knowledge of Them seems to follow that order.

J.T. Quite so, you cannot reverse that order; you could not begin with the Spirit, and go back to the Father. You begin with the Father. It is "to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit"; there is only one name, it is one God in the three Persons.

Rem. So that now we are getting an increased knowledge of the Holy Spirit.

J.T. I think so; I think when we baptise now, we have a little more light and power in the baptism. You take up the child with more tenderness, I believe, and more feeling, and baptise it to the name of the Father; it is not in the name there, it is to, as if to put the child into the presence of God. It is "to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit".

Ques. As to this question of speaking to the Spirit, is it not a matter of desire, the desire of the soul to give to a divine Person what is due to Him in worship? In these verses you have read it says, "If any one thirst, let him come to me", and then it adds, "this he said concerning the Spirit". Is it not a question of really thirsting in one's soul to render to a divine Person what is due to Him?

J.T. Quite so: 'Hast thou heard of never thirsting', as the hymn puts it (Hymn 236). These wonderful things belong to poetry and God may help us to write poetry so that we may sing better.

A.R. In regard to the service of God there is quite an exercise at the present time as to how we should speak to the Spirit and when.

J.T. I think if you take the order of the service, the Lord's supper is, of course, the very foundation of our position; it is the very centre of it. The term refers to the Lord; it does not refer to the Spirit, it does not refer to the Father, it refers to the Lord, it is the Lord's supper. We cannot speak of the Father's supper, or the Spirit's supper; it is the

Lord's supper, and we go through with that rightly first, then we have liberty otherwise. If we want to speak to the Father, we do, and we may speak about the Son; we may speak about Him, but I would say, we should be sparse in doing it. I think what we have been doing for many years is pretty nearly right, that the Father is the ultimate of everything, the Father in the economy is the ultimate of everything, and therefore we proceed with the Father and end with the Father. And this, of course, leads to God, "that God may be all in all".

R.P. Just when would we speak to the Spirit?

J.T. Any time, I do not see that we should limit it in that sense. He is the Spirit of God, a divine Person. If you are led to do it, bearing in mind what we have said about the Lord's supper, there is no reason why you might not allude, for instance, to the Spirit of adoption, because that is a term that is applicable.

Ques. I suppose we should rightly differentiate between those who are enquiring in a godly and reverential way as to the matter of addressing the Holy Spirit, and those who are criticising. I am one who, heretofore, had not seen the matter clearly. I should say, that up till today, I had been looking for the basis of address to the Holy Spirit; but I have been doing it, I trust, soberly.

A.N.W. Was it not your point, that in Genesis 26, some of the wells were an occasion of contention, but this matter is not a matter of contention.

J.T. We have come to Broadways. We have no contention here today.

Rem. Ephesians 1:14, would bear out what has been said as to worshipping the Spirit; it says, "to the praise of his glory", referring as I have heard you say, to the Holy Spirit of promise in verse 13.

J.T. Quite so. Relative to the remarks of our brother here, I think that what has been said as to Broadways implies richness, a certain richness and liberty of soul, and you are much more likely to bear with people when you are in that state than when you are not so free and easy. One has used the expression, being on easy terms with God, and I think it is a very good expression; and then we may be on easy terms with the Spirit, and on easy terms with the Lord Jesus, and on easy terms with the brethren too. You will not go very far in speaking rashly or too tersely to them if you are on these lines. You want to go as far as you can with them.

A.N.W. May I just read that last word about the Broadways? "And he called the name of it Rehoboth" (which means Broadways), "and said, For now Jehovah has made room for us, and we shall be fruitful in the land".

J.T. Very good.

Rem. I was much impressed that at the meetings at Plainfield you said that the brethren need to have patience with one another in regard to this matter of the Holy Spirit.

J.T. Quite so.

J.H.P. As our time is nearly gone, would you tell us what you had in mind as to the passages in Revelation?

J.T. It was just to bring out the place the Spirit has in the Lord's own remarks. As we know, the book of Revelation was given to Christ by God. It is a remarkable thing that God gave it to Him to show to His servants things which must shortly come to pass, and amongst these things that John was to write were "what thou hast seen", but particularly as to now, "the things that are". We have read from the things that are, meaning the addresses to certain assemblies, amongst which is the assembly of Philadelphia; and the most precious address of all

is the one to that assembly, because in that connection the great revival has worked out. The Lord says to her, "I also will keep thee out of the hour of trial, which is about to come upon the whole habitable world, to try them that dwell upon the earth". The Lord says that to Philadelphia, and we are learning something of the meaning of Philadelphia, I mean to say, what the name means; brotherly love, and it is very precious that it does, and we should be in brotherly love. The Broadways makes way for it. But as we were saying, "the things that are" refer to the addresses to the assemblies, and that to Philadelphia is one of the most precious addresses that we have. The Lord says, to that assembly, which would mean the assembly in our day, "I also will keep thee out of the hour of trial, which is about to come upon the whole habitable world, to try them that dwell upon the earth". So that is a promise, and a most comforting promise, that whatever happens in regard to trade unionism or any other ism that is a trial to us, the Lord says, 'I will keep thee from it'. I would think that He means that we are to be kept out of it, not simply from it, but out of it, by being transferred to heaven, and it is a great comfort to have that in our minds. That is why I suggested that we should read these few verses.

W.McK. Does that promise apply in principle at the present time? The Lord does not say that He will take them out of it, but if the saints are faithful in the things they have to go through such as you have mentioned, the Lord says He will keep them out of it.

J.T. Yes, I think that is right too, I am glad you mentioned that; but I do believe, that the Lord really means that He will take us out of it by taking us up to heaven.

W.McK. Yes, I see that, but I was only thinking of a present application of the word.

J.T. You have experienced that, and you have been kept out of it, I think it ought to be understood that although the trade unions are now pretty stiff, and employment is not so full as it was, at the same time at bottom there is a secret understanding, especially in some parts, that if a man has a conscience, they will recognise it, I do not know whether you would confirm that?

W.McK. I have had to do with that, and one of the things that the business agent said was, This man has a conscience and has a right to be respected.

J.T. Very good. That is what is meant, and I believe if others of our brethren in the New York area will take that ground, God will be with them. Moreover certain letters that I have seen show that the Senators are sympathetic with the idea of the refusal of the closed shop.

A.N.W. We saw a letter from a senator in which he used the words, 'We are very much concerned about the matter', showing his sympathy for the brethren.

J.T. That would indicate that God is perhaps in the thing. We are not politicians of course at all, we are christians, and we are dealing with our own matters now; but at the same time the powers that be are our matters too, that we respect the powers that be. They are the law makers, there must be laws, and we are glad there are, and they make them, and we have access to these men. If we were simply to say, I know of a man who cannot get work because the trade union will not let him, the senators might be helped to suggest something that would lead to the brethren getting work without difficulty.

V.C.L. Do you not think that the understanding of the Spirit's place as the Comforter is peculiarly intended to strengthen us at a time like this, when we may be able to prove Him in that capacity as perhaps we have not known Him before?

J.T. That is to say, He is in charge of our affairs down here as the Lord is in charge of our affairs in heaven. There may be opposition up there too from the devil, but the Spirit is in charge of our affairs down here on the earth, and we see that He is working in our favour; we count on Him to influence the authorities. But we should also see that there is such a thing as angelic service, which I believe is very much ignored amongst the brethren. They are said to be all ministering spirits, sent out to minister on account of those who shall be heirs of salvation; and that ministering is very largely a question of interference in connection with our external matters, as for instance one angel destroyed one hundred and eighty-five thousand men in the days of the Old Testament. So that we may count on God doing things for us not only by the Spirit but by angelic service.

R.P. Why is the Spirit so prominent in these early chapters of Revelation?

J.T. Because it is a question of what the Lord Himself has been given, the revelation which God has given to Christ, "to shew to his bondmen what must shortly take place". He sent and signified it; the word 'signified' means that it is in signs, there are significations and signs; and He sent and signified it by His servant John to His servants. John is viewed as a bondman in this book, he takes a lowly place; he says, "I John, your brother and fellow-partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and patience, in Jesus". Then he tells us that he was in the Spirit on the Lord's day; much is made of the Spirit, and then he tells us that he heard a voice behind him, and it comes to light that the Lord is acting judicially in this first chapter. In the second chapter the Lord says, "He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies". The Lord says, so to speak, 'I am saying so much, but

the Spirit could say much more; He would open up and enlarge on what I have said'. That is the mystery of it.

W.McK. Does the fact that John denotes himself as a brother and fellow-partaker before he says, "I became in the Spirit", show what is possible for us?

J.T. Quite so.

R.P. The Spirit now today is adding to what has been said, is that your thought?

J.T. That is the idea. You might say, The Lord has said all that is to be said. He has written seven epistles to the assemblies. Why do they not contain all that is to be said? But then the Lord has not said everything; He is leaving something to the Spirit; so that we have ministry, we have meetings like this, and the Spirit speaks. It says, "let him hear what the Spirit says", not what the Lord says, but what the Spirit says to the assemblies.

Rem. That is still continuing is it not?

J.T. Yes, it is. We have our Bibles open, and one and another is saying something, and the Spirit is helping us to do it.

A.R. These letters that are being written to Washington are not being written to politicians; it is a question of recognising and writing to the government, is it not?

J.T. Quite so, and if we do not recognise that, we are not recognising the truth, because it is part of the truth, and it dates back to Nebuchadnezzar, when God handed over the government of the world to him; and this goes on still. Why should we not observe that, and recognise these facts? We are not politicians, we are simply acting wisely, we see our brethren suffering and we want to help them.

H.B. In the second chapter of the Song of Solomon where the beloved says to the spouse, "And the voice of the turtle dove is heard in our land", is that an allusion to the Spirit, do you think?

Would the turtle dove typically suggest the Spirit, the form in which He would come down?

J.T. Noah too had to do with that; the dove is mentioned in connection with him. It has to do with the blessed Lord Jesus, and when the Lord was about to be baptised the dove came down; the Spirit came in the form of a dove and abode upon Him, as if He enjoyed the thought of being with the Lord Himself. And we surely ought to enjoy the thought. Brothers have written to me from several different parts of the world that they are getting great enjoyment out of the thought of the communion of the Holy Spirit; that is one of the phrases that we get in the New Testament; the love of God, and the fellowship or communion of the Holy Spirit. Then too we read of the love of the Spirit, and these are great things that in our secret histories it is our privilege to enjoy. We are to be happy instead of being downcast, or overcome by circumstances; we are happy, for the Spirit is to shed abroad the love of God in our hearts, a very wide expression.

Ques. Would ministry like Ezekiel 47, have in view waters to swim in?

J.T. Waters to swim in. There is no doubt that that might be a clue to what the Lord says in John 7 as to the Spirit, "as the scripture has said, out of his belly shall flow rivers". That probably alludes to Ezekiel 47. It is a wonderful chapter. We have not much more to say as to Revelation 3, it is a matter of what the Spirit says to the assemblies, and how much there is for us in what He is saying. It is the Spirit in ministry.

S.J.H. Could you give us some suggestion as to the titles we might use for the Holy Spirit in the morning meeting, whether we would start addressing Him as Lord and then if we were free use the different titles as we go on with the service?

J.T. That would be a question of the intelligence you have, because the Scripture says, "the Lord is the Spirit"; you can address the Spirit as Lord.

S.J.H. I thought that would be more for the early part, perhaps. Would it not be something different toward the end of the meeting?

J.T. Perhaps so. The fact of the matter is that the subject is so large, the matter of the service of God is so large, that we might make mistakes if we spoke hurriedly, and our time is gone. We hardly know enough about the subject to apply it, and I am just a little afraid we might say something that would not be quite right. At the same time I do see that the term Lord is applicable to the Spirit of God, and it is applicable to the Lord Jesus Christ, and it is applicable to the Father; He is sometimes called Lord, as in Matthew 11:25.

E.A.L. In regard to the repetition of the injunction to hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies, would it have a link with John 16:12; "I have yet many things to say to you, but ye cannot bear them now. But when he is come, the Spirit of truth, he shall guide you into all the truth"? So that now it is not just a question of looking into the Scriptures and seeing a worded basis for what we should do, but rather as we are in the Spirit, He will show us what we should do and say?

J.T. Just so, and I would add that the times we are living in now are greater than simply remnant times; the Lord is bringing out fresh things for us from the Scriptures, or rather I should say the Spirit is doing it. The Lord said, "He will shew you things to come", and "He shall guide you into all the truth". We have not got all the truth, maybe we are getting some now.

Rem. Would the words of Haggai suggest that, his words that the latter glory of this house shall be greater than the former?

J.T. That is a good confirmation, so that we might expect the latter glory to be greater than that at the beginning.

S.J.H. In the temple there were half-open flowers. Is there a suggestion that they are opening up now?

J.T. That is right.

A.N.W. Does not John 7 show that there is more in the Scripture than we think there is?

J.T. Well, it is wonderful, it is marvellous, the glories that are there! 'Hidden treasures' they are called, and we are to dig for those hidden treasures. We have not time, so we say. Maybe we say in the morning that we have to hurry away for a train; but then these hidden treasures are more than a train, more than your business even; we must attend to the Scriptures.

W.W. Do you not think one difficulty with us is that we want to stick to the letter of Scripture and not make way for the Spirit?

J.T. Quite so, and yet we have the Spirit, who is ready to help us and to guide us; it is a beautiful word, to guide us into all the truth.

W.W. So as we are amenable to the Spirit, He would open up these things to us.

J.T. He would indeed.

E.A.L. The Bereans searched the Scriptures to see if these things were so; it does not say they searched them to see if they were not so. It is a positive approach.

J.T. It is the positive side, to see if these things were so. Why does it say that? If the things available are so wonderful, why do we not just stop and think? Maybe we shall get some wonders.

A.N.W. The Bereans received the things first, they did not refuse them, they received them.

J.T. They had a readiness of mind.

J.K.P. Is there not a beautiful suggestion of the present activities of the Holy Spirit as bringing out

the full thoughts of God in 1 Corinthians 2:10, where it says that the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God? Do you not think we should cultivate more the desire for the company of the Holy Spirit in that way?

J.T. I believe that God is honouring what the brethren have been doing. In Acts 20, seven brothers were concerned about things there. It was the first day of the week at Troas, and they had the Lord's supper, and Paul stood up to speak; he discoursed as if there was a great deal to say, and I believe there is a great deal to say about this matter, and we had better be patient and hear it. They all listened to Paul till he finished, and then they went up and broke bread, and they went away comforted. That is the way things are; that there is comfort.

S.McC. Do you think that verse 11 of chapter 3 is a good verse to go away with? "I come quickly, hold fast what thou hast, that no one take thy crown". There is something distinctive about the Philadelphian phase.

J.T. Beautiful. And then the further great and glorious thought in the end of chapter 22, "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come". They say, "Come", not, "Come quickly", but "Come"; as if the thing ought to be taken account of at once. The Lord is hearing that all the time, they are saying, "Come". But over against that stands the patience of God.

THE WORSHIP OF GOD HIMSELF

Romans 11:33 - 36; Romans 16:25 - 27; Ephesians 3:20, 21

J.T. These scriptures record the deep feelings that moved the apostle in his writing, first in the epistle to the Romans and then in the epistle to the Ephesians. The consideration of them may serve under the Lord's hand to bring under review in a little way what immediately suggested the doxologies. We have first the ways of God on the earth as seen in Romans 10 and 11; then the gospel itself as outlined in the epistle, leading to the closing verses where the mystery comes into evidence which is outside these ways. It comes into them but had been hid, and the subject of the epistle promotes such deep feelings as to call forth an ascription of praise to God in regard of the mystery. Then we have the unfolding of the mystery itself in Ephesians, leading to such feelings as are expressed in the few verses read, including the power that is available, the power in which God does "exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think". This last passage is intended to fortify us in the maintenance of the exalted truths of the epistle.

C.A.C. Yes, indeed. Would you suggest that the spirit of these wonderful utterances is intended to pervade the service and worship of the assembly?

J.T. I thought the consideration of them would lead us to the great end in view in all God's counsels and ways. In each case it is God, the ascription of praise is to God, God Himself being the great end; God as such being the end in view. I believe that as we are drawing near to the end of this dispensation the Spirit would move in that way, that God should come before us feelingly; for these ascriptions of praise are to Him because of what He is in Himself.

F.W.W. In what character do you view God in these doxologies?

J.T. Well, briefly, the first scripture in Romans 11 alludes to His wisdom, knowledge and judgments as manifested in His ways. His sovereign ways, His sovereignty affecting not only His people but those who are not such; then the second in chapter 16 is God in relation to the assembly, the establishing (verse 25) being needed by us, but the doxology going to God as such; finally in Ephesians it is God as He is presented to us in John 1:18, for instance-"No one has seen God at any time; the only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him". So in Colossians, we have the Son spoken of as "image of the invisible God"-Christ is that.

C.A.C. In what relation does that stand to the name of Father?

J.T. Well, I have been thinking lately that these relations into which God has entered through the incarnation have in mind what we are; it is God coming within the range of our intelligence and affections so as to secure us with a view to what He is in Himself. Having entered into the relation of Father with His Son, that relationship stands, but it is necessarily a narrower or more limited thought than the thought of Godhead, although the Father is God. The great thought is God; that is the word the Spirit of God uses to convey the Deity. That is the great thought. The relation into which He has entered is not anything less blessed, for it involves our being brought near in relations suited to Him, not simply as creatures but as sons; and all to the end that men might through redemption be brought near in freedom to worship God.

E.J.McB. You think of God as the supreme thought?

J.T. I think that is how Scripture presents the truth.

E.J.McB. And as to these doxologies, would the first one be more a question of His judgments, and the second one more a question of His wisdom, and the final one what we might speak of as the greatness of God? He is able to do all.

J.T. Quite so, as regards what is available for our help; and then, "To him be glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus unto all generations of the age of ages". Ephesians gives us the full thought.

C.S.S. Would that be suggested in Psalm 50"Out of Zion, the perfection of beauty, God hath shined"?

J.T. Quite so, the shining out of God. It is not now the shining out of His creation, but He shines out of Zion, the perfection of beauty. The first doxology here is, "Of him, and through him, and for him are all things"; that is, the bearing of all this is Godward, as indeed we should expect in ascriptions of praise or worship. In unfolding these wonderful things by the Spirit, he knew the One who was capable of such emotions, reminding us that in ministry and service these emotions are in keeping. The ministry occasions them; the servant is not only being used, but he is an intelligent person himself and capable of these emotions.

F.W.W. These doxologies result from the spirit of worship in the speakers?

J.T. That is what I was thinking, that in unfolding these sovereign ways of God in relation to Israel the apostle is moved first as to the depth of wisdom; the first doxology is occasioned by the thought of the depths of wisdom, that is the first thing mentioned: "O depth of riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God!"

Ques. Would the title here be equivalent to the title in the first chapter of Genesis, "In the beginning God"?

J.T. I think so, I think that is what is in mind; it is God. "In the beginning God". The word is in the plural in Genesis 1, which would emphasise the thought of the Supreme, the One to be worshipped.

C.A.C. Are these ascriptions specially to be noted as being the only intimation of the character of worship on the part of the saints? We have no account in the New Testament of expressions used in the assembly, have we?

J.T. You mean that we have no psalter in the New Testament, so we have to take these expressions as representative of what believers said in the early days. Yes, one can understand that if the apostle Paul were in a meeting on the first day of the week, as he would be as he had opportunity, he in worship to God would touch on these things. Of course, we rightly bring Christ and present Him to God in His infinite perfections as Son; but then there is what God is, and that is touched on in these passages: "O depth of riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and untraceable his ways!" You feel that the speaker is in the presence of God, the Source of all, for he proceeds to say, "Of him, and through him, and for him are all things". He is in the presence of God! He would be supported in this, of course, by the great Priest, for access to God is through the great Priest; and he would be in the power of the Spirit; but he is in the presence of God.

L.M. As to God and the Father, would you say why John in his gospel and epistles puts the two thoughts alongside so often? For instance, in chapter 4, "The Father seeketh such to worship him"; and

then, "God is a spirit, and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and truth".

J.T. While they run together, God is the great thought. "God is a spirit". The Father denotes a relationship entered into; in John it usually denotes God in grace, that He has entered into that relation in grace, hence, "The Father judgeth no man", John 5:22. That shows in itself that it is a title or relation narrower, though not less blessed, than the primary or the final thought. God is the primary and the final thought. The relations taken are with a view to the great final thought being reached, that God might be known. See what a knowledge the worshipper has here! What an apprehension of God he has! How he is moved in thinking of Him, in the word, "O depth of riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God!". He is in the presence of God, he is in the presence of the great Being who has come out; and he is moved in His presence and moved intelligently.

Ques. Is that the thought in 1 Corinthians 15:28. "Then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all"?

J.T. That is the end.

E.J.McB. Is this somewhat similar to Israel's blessing of Joseph's sons, where he refers to the God that had brought Abraham and Isaac through? "The God before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac walked, the God that shepherded me all my life long", Genesis 48:15. Is that the character of doxology, and should we not experience, as the result of God's ways with us, this holy sense of His own blessedness?

J.T. That is what I think we might see, that the Spirit is aiming at that; God is to be worshipped because of what He is Himself. Jacob alludes to the God of his fathers, and the God that shepherded

him; his view is very great for him. But when you come to Exodus 3 God not only says, "I am the God of thy father", but when Moses makes the inquiry, Who shall I say sent me? God says, "I AM". There you touch something that enters into this chapter; "I AM hath sent me unto you", Exodus 3:14. That is the ever-existing One.

Ques. As to the word of the Lord, "I ascend to my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God" (John 20:17), is God the higher thought there?

J.T. God is necessarily the greatest thought. The Father comes first there, but it never comes first in the epistles. When you get the ascriptions, there it is to God and Father; God is first, so that we have to take John 20 as progressive. That is, you come into the knowledge of the Father; the Father is a term of the relationship into which He has brought us that we may know Him more intimately; the very term implies that. There is more intimacy possible than with God as God, but that intimacy that we come into serves us in good stead in worshipping God. The relationship is to that end, it is progressive; that in the knowledge of the Father I have power and more liberty to speak to God. I believe the Son in taking graciously a lower place on our account as Man, teaches us how to speak to God, gives us feelings, as in the case of the apostle here, suitable to God. The relation of Father and Son serves to that end.

Ques. Is God as thus presented the Source and Object of all, in Romans?

J.T. That is what is stated plainly here, and with a view to that we see how He acted sovereignly in chapter 9, not only in regard to Isaac, but also in regard to Jacob and Esau. He acted sovereignly as to Isaac and Jacob in regard of those born after the Spirit; but He also acted sovereignly as to those

who were not. He says, "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated". We have to know God in that way. He did not say He hated Esau before he was born, but it is brought in in that connection. Before they were born He said, "The elder shall serve the younger". That is God's sovereign discrimination in favour of one person and against another. Then He raised up Pharaoh sovereignly to show His power in him.

T.C.F. Would you say that God has entered into a mediatorial position so that He might be known thus?

J.T. The relationship and the system of affections are really to lead us into a state great enough to worship God; not that the worship of God is any more blessed, but it is the end in view. Obviously the Creator is to be worshipped, the Supreme is to be worshipped.

Ques. Is that the idea of glory in each scripture?

J.T. Exactly, the great end is God, and these relations set men free, set us free so that we might worship Him.

P.A.R. Would this doxology connect with Proverbs 8 in any way, the beginning of God's way there?

J.T. I think so, wisdom is in mind in that chapter as marking His ways. That is the first thing mentioned in Romans, "O depth of riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God!"

G.C.S. In the song of Moses he says, "Ascribe ye greatness unto our God", Deuteronomy 32:3.

J.T. Quite so, "greatness unto our God".

C.S.S. Is your thought that these depths of God's riches are made known to the assembly, as we get, "The Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God"; and He reveals them to us?

J.T. He does, but this is really in a way greater, because it extends back to what was remarked as

to Proverbs 8; it goes back to the beginning of God's way; wisdom was there. Proverbs 8 takes us back to the beginning of everything, and wisdom was there; that is, you are impressed with this, that God was operating, and He was operating in wisdom. So that all Scripture is intended to promote the knowledge of God in our hearts and minds, from Genesis 1 onwards. "In the beginning God"; a great thought presented in a word that denotes supremacy and power, presented in the plural as if to remind us of God; and that is never to be lost sight of. The whole tenor of Scripture is to keep that before us, to make us worshippers.

Ques. Is that what underlies the Lord's prayer in John 17?

J.T. The three chapters in Romans blend together in the apostle's mind by the Spirit. He begins with deep feeling as to Israel, as to those whom God took up sovereignly, showing that he is not a mere instrument but a feeling person, a man affected feelingly. He is a worshipper even in that matter. So deep are his feelings that he says, "I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh", Romans 9:3. That is the feeling that the sovereign ways of God promote in us. He took up that people and the apostle gives us a list of things that attached to them. "Who are Israelites; whose is the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the law-giving, and the service, and the promises; whose are the fathers; and of whom, as according to flesh, is the Christ, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen", Romans 9:4, 5. That is another doxology; it is the outcome of his feelings, of what he is about to speak of as to Israel, a people that God took up sovereignly and in connection with whom is the Christ; but who is He? God, over all, blessed for ever. Now you may question why this as to God is brought

in there. We come at the end of these three chapters, 9 - 11, to God, and praise ascribed to Him because of His wisdom, knowledge, judgments, and so on; but this God is Christ too. Christ is God over all, blessed for ever. I mention that because of the importance of our being governed in our minds by Scripture's way of speaking; lest there should be any shade cast on Christ. In making everything of God rightly there is not; it is just that He has come in according to this wisdom, according to love of course, but according to such a scheme of wisdom; that One who is spoken of as God over all should come in in connection with Israel and be known here as a Sufferer, a lowly Servant. But what for? To the end that the great primary thought of God should be reached; and it is reached in those verses read.

Ques. Does this first doxology suggest the entire solution of every moral question for God Himself, everything caused to work for His glory in that way?

J.T. That is right; all is for Him.

Rem. I thought this treatise on the gospel comes in so that God gets His own pleasure out of man now, however viewed.

J.T. "Through him"-we have to understand how that works out; I think the epistle has that in mind. At the beginning of these three chapters we see the wonderful scheme of wisdom, that Christ came in in relation to God's earthly people. Instead of bringing Him in immediately after Adam failed, wisdom required that centuries should pass by, and God should call out a people in connection with whom all these things should be, and then that Christ should be by them. Surely we have to consider wisdom in all that! Wherein lies the wisdom of God postponing the incarnation? He spoke of it in Genesis 3, and He postponed it for centuries; and in the interim He calls out Abraham and Isaac and

Jacob, and attaches to them the promises, the law and the adoption. He brings all these things in before the incarnation. What does all that mean? What have I gained by that? What is there in that lesson book for me? That is what enters into these chapters; and then finally the Christ, who is over all, God blessed for ever. There is the scheme of wisdom; the great lesson book for faith to understand and see how God reaches His thought in His ways on earth.

Ques. Is it not the sovereignty of mercy that the apostle is speaking of here? Having learned what mercy is, it fits us to think of God in this worshipping way.

J.T. That is right; that comes into it, the idea of wisdom is the first thing mentioned. He is rich in mercy to all that call upon Him; and Ephesians too says He is rich in mercy; but then He is rich in wisdom. What does all this mean? Why did He defer the incarnation? What is He working out?

C.A.C. And it is all God; if it is through Him, it is through God, not exactly through the Mediator. Is that important?

J.T. "Through him"; that is the reason why it is well to call attention to what is said about Jesus at the beginning as, "over all, God blessed for ever". It is God's doing, and the One who carries it out in detail, the Man Christ Jesus, is no less than that; He is God.

T.C.F. Would you allow the suggestion that the thought of God in these doxologies is greater than that of God in Genesis 1?

J.T. It must be, for there we have the bare statement, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth"; but now we have the unfolding of wisdom in God's ways. Why did He defer the incarnation? He spoke of the seed of the woman

coming in, but it was not immediate. All this is worked out in the meantime. What is it for? It is a question of wisdom, and as a lesson-book for us, so that we should be worshippers from this standpoint, so that we should know God from this standpoint; so the three chapters go over the ground. The apostle in the first emotional statement tells us the depth of his feelings-what he thought of those whom God called out, Israel, as He called them. But what do I think about them? It may be only a few years before God will begin to move in them; what do I think about them? The apostle says, what I think is this, that at one time I was ready to be accursed from Christ because of them; and he tells us why. Then he proceeds to show how God in coming in in this way works sovereignly; He took up Isaac instead of Ishmael; He took up Jacob instead of Esau; and so on. The principle of sovereignty comes home to me. Why did He take up me? Any of us ought to be able to say that, Why did He take up me? He passed by others. That is intended to make me a worshipper.

L.O.L. Is it significant that we do not read much of wisdom until we come to Solomon? He asked for wisdom. Solomon wrote Proverbs 8.

J.T. You can see how great a thought wisdom is in Solomon, in God taking up a man and making him so wise. Wiser than all men; wiser than Ethan, than Heman and Calcol; he had no equal. Of course the thought is Christ: Christ now is the wisdom of God. But we can only touch on these things, they are really the greatest possible things; the greatest range of things is what is presented in these doxologies. It may be the gain will be in the suggestion more than in what may be said.

When we come to the last chapter, the apostle has the mystery before him. Why did God keep it a mystery? We are told in Proverbs 25 that it is the

glory of God to conceal a matter, we have to understand wherein the glory lies; the glory of concealment. So that what is in view is the establishment of the brethren, of the saints, "according to my glad tidings, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, as to which silence has been kept in the times of the ages, but which has now been made manifest, and by prophetic scriptures, according to commandment of the eternal God, made known for obedience of faith to all the nations-the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory for ever. Amen". It is again a question of wisdom. We have to see wherein lies the glory of concealment, spoken of in the book of wisdom, that is the book of Proverbs, and how there was wisdom before the world, prepared for our glory. See 1 Corinthians 2:7.

H.P.W. It says here, "According to commandment of the eternal God". That links us with the greatest thought of God.

J.T. Yes; God, but now the eternal God.

C.A.C. Is that the thought of the mystery of God in Colossians? It is what pertains to the knowledge of God Himself. "In which are hid all the treasures of wisdom and of knowledge", Colossians 2:3. It is a greater and wider thought than the assembly, is it not?

J.T. That seems to be how it stands. The mystery of God, I suppose, includes all that can be called mystery. This thought of mystery is intended to make us treasuries, hiding places, safe keeping places or depositories for divine thoughts.

C.A.C. Then the apostle's agony of desire for the saints in Colossians 2 stands in direct relation to what you are bringing before us today.

J.T. He was combating. One feels how meagre we are in dealing with these immense matters, but

yet they belong to us. One is made to feel one's limitations and the limitations of the brethren; how little we can elucidate these thoughts, they are so great and we are so limited! The very suggestion of these wonderful depths of God is so great, unveiling His mystery so that we may be rooted and grounded in love. It is the state of the saints that is in mind here. Even a Paul could not unfold the thing to certain ones because of their state. What God would remind us of is our state; whether them is the state of love and the unity of the Spirit, so that these things should be unfolded to us that we might know "the mystery of God; in which are hid all the treasures of wisdom and of knowledge".

E.J.McB. Would the thought be that if one accepts the sovereignty of God and the wisdom that has taken one up, one would want to be established in the present ministry and the place the assembly has in the mystery of God?

J.T. The epistle, I suppose, augments this; the apostle does not go forward to unfold it to the Romans, but it is the expected outcome that should be looked for by those who have received the gospel; "according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery". It was already revealed; it does not speak of it as future, it was already there; but the Romans evidently were not ready for it. The establishment would be that we might be equal to the thing, to the mystery that he speaks of here, leading up to the great thought of God wherein are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. They are hidden there; they are not spread abroad for the natural mind of man; they are hidden there.

C.A.C. Could we have a little on Ephesians 3?

J.T. Well, I thought it would be a good finish to our reading as leading up to the great end. The passage really begins immediately with the apostle's

prayer to the Father that He would grant the saints to be strengthened by the Father's Spirit in the inner man. It is the Spirit of the Father, I apprehend, to the end that the Christ should dwell in our hearts by faith, that we being rooted and grounded in love, should be able to take in what is "the breadth and length and depth and height; and to know the love of the Christ". That is where we are led to, to this great thought, the strengthening by the Father's Spirit, that we might thus be fully able to know "what is the breadth and length and depth and height; and to know the love of the Christ which surpasses knowledge; that ye may be filled even to all the fulness of God"-not the Father here, but God. Then in verse 20 he says, "But to him that is able to do far exceedingly above all which we ask or think, according to the power which works in us, to him be glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus unto all generations of the age of ages". It seems as if we are led there to the final thought as to what God has in mind in the assembly.

Rem. The Father's Spirit would give us ability to apprehend Christ in His greatness. "Strengthened with power by his Spirit in the inner man; that the Christ may dwell" in our hearts.

J.T. I think what you say suggests much. The relation entered into of Father and Son enables God to speak so as to be intelligible to us as to what He thinks of Christ, what His thoughts of Christ are. It is not simply God and man, it is Father and Son; and that is a relation that existed in humanity from the very beginning, and it is intelligible to us, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased", Matthew 3:17, was the announcement from heaven; and that was said of a Man. Well, we are capable of understanding that. God works by way of environment with an end in view. He placed the relation of father and son in the human race; I do

not think He placed it in the angelic order of being, although angels are called the sons of God. But I do not think Scripture warrants the thought that there is the relation of father and son amongst angels, that there is any suggestion of it. He is pleased to place that relationship in the human race; and all that God did had a purpose in it. He enters much more into detail than we are inclined to think, in view of taking us up according to His counsels. He operates externally: our antecedents, how we are brought up, our environment, all this is in God's mind. He works with wonderful forethought and detail in regard of each of us; and if He had the idea of coming in in the relation of Father and Son. He places that relation amongst men. It is well known. And so at the Jordan He announces from heaven, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased". Anyone who heard that would be affected. There is the relation of Father and Son; a Man being here on earth in that relation.

E.J.McB. And that is conducive to the knowledge of God in a worshipful way.

J.T. Conducive to the full thought that God had in mind.

C.A.C. So this scripture confirms the line of thought you have been suggesting; the Spirit of the Father strengthening, and Christ dwelling in the heart through faith, leading up to the great thought of the fulness of God.

J.T. Yes; that there may be glory to God in the assembly in Christ Jesus.

C.S.S. Do you think that the knowledge of the Son of God referred to in Ephesians 4 is preparatory to our being filled to all the fulness of God as in chapter 3?

J.T. I should think so, but of course in the epistle it comes afterwards in relation to ministry. All comes from the ascended Man, Christ in heaven,

and the wisdom with which He has provided the ministers, as it is said, "for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ", Ephesians 4:12, 13. You are alluding to that thought of the fulness of Christ. That fulness of Christ is one thing; what He is as Man in sonship, what comes out of that, as it were, that is what we are to come to. The fulness of God is obviously a greater thought although they run together. Being filled to all the fulness of God is, I apprehend, that the assembly is set up in the presence of God in the light of the full knowledge of God, not in the weakness of the creature but in power filled unto all the fulness of God. I stand up there with all the saints as filled in the presence of God. Each of us would be there in that way.

A.J.G. Would that be the perfecting of the saints that you referred to at the beginning?

J.T. The perfecting of the saints comes in chapter 4, in the work of the ministry; the gifts are to that end, for the perfecting of the saints. That is to say, the saints are to be brought round to the full exercise of their senses, nothing missing, no malformation; so that there might be growth, growing up to Christ in all things. But then, "filled even to all the fulness of God"; of course it is perfecting, but not the same thought, I think. The thought is that there is capacity formed; the saints are great persons. The Father's Spirit in the inner man implies capacity. I want to be able to take everything in that is there; and that is why we ought to be attentive now. The apostle says he bows his knees because of that; in Colossians he combats in view of the mystery of God, but here he bows his knees in view of capacity in the saints, that we may be fully able to take in

the "breadth and length and depth and height; and to know the love of the Christ which surpasses knowledge". Think of the greatness of these things! It is a question of capacity by the Father's Spirit in the inner man.

Rem. I was wondering whether the thought is seen in the sons of God in Job 38:7. The sons of God entered feelingly into what God was doing.

J.T. I think you can link that on with Paul here in Romans; how they were moved when the foundations of the earth were laid; the sons of God shouted for joy and the morning stars sang together. They entered sympathetically into what God was doing. With Paul, after the long history and manifestation of power on God's part, how beautiful it is to see him ascribe praise to God because of what He is! Not only what Christ is-of course Christ is the manifestation of God-but then God is to be spoken to in relation to what He is Himself.

Ques. Have you the Holy Spirit in mind in relation to God?

J.T. Certainly; He is God Himself. God is here by the Spirit. That is why I was remarking that we should pay attention to the way Scripture speaks. We have in Genesis l, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth"; then, "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters". It is the same God but now He is moving in compassion, and that runs right through the history of the Spirit as we have it in the Scripture. It is what God is here compassionately and feelingly. God maintains His own majesty; He is God, and yet He serves, and even makes coats for Adam. And right through it is God as feeling, even humbling Himself to behold the things in heaven and in the earth (Psalm 113:6). Yet He maintains His majesty in the Deity.

Rem. The heart of the apostle is bowed in the conscious sense of God's absolute supremacy.

J.T. That is what I was thinking. The apostle is great enough to speak to God in this way; and that is what one would like, to be great enough for such utterance. The passage is a matter of inward ability; that we may be filled, able to take in these great things.

E.J.McB. We are to be competent to worship God intelligently.

J.T. And great enough in our feelings, not only to use the expressions, but great enough inwardly in ourselves in speaking to God. It is not only the question of intelligence, but of the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of God; that is Ephesians 1. Then the Father's Spirit in the inner man giving me ability to stand up in the presence of all this, and to enjoy it; and to speak of it feelingly as Paul does here. You can see what a man Paul was by the Spirit, as able to speak in this way, and with such fulness.

Pages 112 to 517: "The Mediatorial Service of Christ and the Holy Spirit". Meetings in Great Britain, 1949 (Volume 180).

THE MEDIATORIAL SERVICE OF CHRIST AND THE HOLY SPIRIT (1)

Revelation 1:1 - 20

J.T. It should be remarked that the purpose is not to deal with the whole book of the Revelation, but the beginning and the end of it, and especially with the seven assemblies. The primary reason is because the Lord is seen here in a mediatorial sense more fully than elsewhere. It is said, "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time", 1 Timothy 2:5, 6. The thought was that this book affords certain indications, or clarity, as to the mediatorial services of the Lord Jesus, and, of course, accompanying these are the mediatorial services of the Holy Spirit. In Mark 13:32 the Lord distinguishes between Himself and the Father, in saying that certain things were held in the Father's thoughts and counsels. It is as if the Lord Jesus takes the place of not knowing them, yet He is Himself God over all, as verse 8 of this chapter shows, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, saith the Lord God, he who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty". Although He is God Himself, and never less, yet, at the same time He takes a lower place in the mediatorial realm, or the mediatorial economy, as we rightly call it. Then there is John's place in the service, according to verse 9: "I John". He stands in a certain relation to us as our brother, saying, "your brother and fellow-partaker", and he speaks of himself and how the Revelation came to him as he was in the Spirit on the Lord's day. We are thus reminded of what is

suitable to us as brethren, the state of being in the Spirit on the Lord's day. Then all that entering into the idea of an economy, and of the Lord's own rights in the assembly, and at the same time, there are the Lord's own rights in that He speaks authoritatively to the assembly, and then the Spirit is seen as saying things too, without specifying what the things are, "what the Spirit says to the assemblies".

A.J.G. Is the mediatorial position of the Lord Jesus emphasised in that the Revelation is said to be given to Him by God?

J.T. Just so. He is in that position, which implies a certain relative inferiority. At the same time we hold clearly in mind that He is God; that is, He belongs to the Deity, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

J.A.P. Is the thought of the mediatorial position an eternal one?

J.T. I do not think it has been, although I am not prepared to say much about that, but it would look as if things are put on a mediatorial basis. Eternity is put on a mediatorial basis on the ground of redemption, so that I should say in general that that is true, and that we shall be on that basis eternally. Everything will be in the hands of the Son, for "the Father loves the Son and has given all things to be in his hand".

A.J.G. Do you mean that things will be on the mediatorial basis to all eternity, looking forward, but have not been on that basis in past eternity?

J.T. Quite so, because things now hinge on the incarnation. The incarnation is a fact now, and this book assumes it: "Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to him". God gave it to Him, and that would coincide with the verse in Mark 13.

Ques. Is the mediatorial system designed so that all that is in the mind of God for men should be made available to them?

J.T. That is what I would say. We cannot exclude angels, but the redemptive work of Christ refers to men. The angels that fell remain in that state and do not get restored, but there are others and they are called the elect angels.

Ques. I thought you might say something more as to eternity being held on the basis of redemption. How does the purpose of God come in there?

J.T. We have the idea of eternity attached to the purpose of God. His eternal purpose, and everything evidently is to be based on that purpose. The angels (see Ephesians 3:10, 11) come into it happily and freely in this book even, as they do elsewhere, but the redemptive work of the Lord Jesus clearly has allusion to man.

F.J.F. We speak of redeemed creation. Would that be understood only in a limited sense?

J.T. I would say that, in a limited sense. At the same time we have in Genesis l: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth", and then in John 1 it says. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God ... All things received being through him, and without him not one thing received being which has received being". So that all was made to fit into the redemptive work of Christ.

Ques. Does scripture not clearly show that we are brought into sonship on the basis of redemption?

J.T. I think it does.

A.J.G. I think it would help if you would add a further word with regard to the question as to how redemption fits in with the purpose of God which was formed before any question of sin arose.

J.T. Well, that would have to be spoken of as it is presented in Scripture. There is the eternal purpose of God, meaning that it is a matter really entering into time. Although the word eternal might be assumed to mean something different, yet it does

not. It is a question of what is in the mind of God in an eternal sense. Eternal sonship is not a thought which we get in Scripture; the Lord is Son in time, but as to His Person He is eternal.

S.McC. When we are engaged with what is linked with new creation and the purpose of God in assembly service, would it be right and comely to bring in thoughts connected with redemption, or what flows out of redemption?-for instance, in Mr. Darby's hymn, 'O Mind divine, so must it be', finishing with 'We should be part, through Jesus' blood' (Hymn 88) We have tended to leave that out, as linked with the redemptive side rather than with the side of new creation and the purpose of God.

J.T. Well, of course, new creation assumes that there is such a thing as creation, only it is a new one. It links on with the idea of creation in Genesis 1, so that we have things new.

P.L. Would the allusion to redemption in Ephesians, the great epistle of divine purpose, link the two together? It says in chapter 1, "The Holy Spirit of promise, who is the earnest of our inheritance to the redemption of the acquired possession to the praise of his glory". Is not this thought of God's purpose linked up there with redemption?

J.T. Clearly, "Redemption of the acquired possession".

Ques. Would you say that redemption is the sacrificial basis upon which God gives effect to His purpose?

J.T. Quite so, sacrificial is good.

J.C-S. Do you think that redemption is involved in the scripture, "In whom we have also obtained an inheritance, being marked out beforehand according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his own will"?

J.T. Quite so. Everything is "according to", it is continuous. The whole scheme of God is continuous,

beginning with Himself. It is a question of His will and His counsel and His love, and His power, of course.

J.C-S. So would the working bring it into time?

J.T. Yes, it is brought into time; incarnation belongs to time.

A.M. Does the idea of redemption bring in the thought of cost and value such as we might get in the expression, "to you therefore who believe is the preciousness"? Is what is secured through redemption in that way shown to be of added value on account of the cost?

J.T. Quite so. You mean the cost seen in the death of the Lord Jesus?

A.M. Yes, so that there is an added preciousness brought in.

Rem. As to what is brought into time; in the first few verses of the epistle to the Hebrews you get a reference to the greatness of the Person and the only thing said to be done in time is the purification of sins, the greatness of the operation in time. I was thinking of the link there is between the side of purpose and the work, of necessity done in time, in regard of sins.

J.T. Quite so. "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son", or "in Son". It is God Himself speaking, and the speaking has in mind redemption, which was accomplished by the Son.

P.H.H. Is the feature of what is eternal suggested in this title of God-who is? "Grace to you and peace from him who is". I was wondering whether "him who is" was to impress us with the eternal Person, who is there.

J.T. It is the present tense, of course, and then "who was" is historical, and "who is to come" is future, or prophetical.

P.H.H. Speaking about eternity, and what is eternal; is there the suggestion that the eternal God is here having relation to time?

J.T. Quite so.

P.H.H. Would that put a great impress upon the mediatorial system which you have spoken of?

J.T. I think it does. Hebrews was intended for that. The epistle to the Hebrews was undoubtedly written by Paul, and it is to bring things out for the Hebrews so that they might come into christianity. The Person of the Son is thus stressed in the words, "hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds". That is, things are all kept within that compass.

F.J.F. Would you say that the love that prompted the counsel came to light in the sacrifice in the redemptive work?

J.T. Quite so. There must be the thought of sacrifice; God intended that. One of the Persons addicted Himself, speaking reverently, to do the work. It was by divine appointment, and He has done it, and in doing it He was forsaken of God. So the whole basis is the sacrifice of Christ, and it all endears Him to us everlastingly.

Ques. Does Genesis 22 help in that respect, in that as soon as the sacrifice is offered God speaks of blessing in a wide-spread way, heavenly and earthly: "I will richly bless thee, and greatly multiply thy seed, as the stars of heaven, and as the sand that is on the sea-shore"?

J.T. Therefore it has become universal through Abraham. It is a question of God's purpose, of course, and the chapter is wonderful in that sense. It is a question of the Father and the Son, typified by Abraham and Isaac, and then God is speaking to Abraham of His purpose as to him. He is determined to bless through him, so that things are working

out to us through Abraham in that sense, and not through Adam.

F.C.H. Is that why it says in Hebrews that He took hold of the seed of Abraham?

J.T. Just so.

F.J.F. I should like to ask if the Spirit had any part in the redemptive work, as it is written: "Who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God".

J.T. Well, the Spirit was there, of course. The Son, as it were, used the Spirit, but the redemptive work was by the Son Himself. The Spirit was available to be used, as He is to us now, in wondrous grace and humility. The Lord Jesus offered Himself without spot to God by the eternal Spirit. It is a question of instrumentality, but as regards the actual redemptive work, it was done by one Person, and that was the Son.

Rem. "Having made by himself the purification of sins".

J.T. Quite so.

J.C-S. Is there any point in the service where we may look at the thought of purpose apart from the sin question, while still holding in our minds the redemptive thought?

J.T. I should not object to that much; we are keeping it in its proper limitations. The matter is in the hands of the three Persons, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit; matters are kept in limitations, so to speak, and yet infinitude enters into everything. We are thus dealing with matters that we cannot fully understand, and cannot assume to understand fully. It is a question of what is written, and we go by that, not by what we may assume, or what we may think, or what we may feel even. When we come to matters that have to be attested it is a question of what is written.

J.C-S. The Scriptures must be the standard in all these matters.

J.T. Quite so, absolutely.

Eu.R. In Colossians 1 and in Ephesians 1 we have: "In whom we have redemption". It stands in the Person now?

J.T. Quite so. It is in the Person.

J.A.P. How far is the thought of redemption brought in in connection with Christ's love for the assembly, and His giving Himself for it?

J.T. Well, it is clearly there, "Christ also loved the assembly, and has delivered himself up for it". Redemption is in mind. Many other things could be quoted to amplify that, but we should just confine ourselves to what is needed in view of getting through this chapter intelligently. We have first what is introductory in the opening verses, and then John himself addressing the assemblies, showing that apostolic feeling was there corresponding with the feelings of Christ, a beautiful thought. "John to the seven assemblies which are in Asia", and so forth. Then he runs on to the thought of the love of Christ. "To him who loves us, and has washed us from our sins in his blood, and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be the glory and the might to the ages of ages. Amen". That is the finish of one subject, and then the next thing is the Lord's own Person, and His coming, "Behold, he comes with the clouds", I am only trying to confine what we are speaking of, as much as possible, to our chapter, so as not to go too far afield, and yet get light nevertheless on the book of Revelation.

H.W. Why is it that we have in this book greetings from the Spirit, in the form of the seven Spirits of God? It seems unique to Revelation.

J.T. It is a very beautiful thought. The number seven suggests the fulness. Of course, the book is

symbolical almost throughout, and therefore we have to make allowance for symbols. The Spirit of God comes into the passage as, we might say, having part in the mediatorial position, as well as Christ Himself.

P.H.H. Would you say a little more about the Spirit coming into the mediatorial position?

J.T. It is quite clear that He is. It says: "Grace to you and peace ... from the seven Spirits, which are before his throne". So that the Spirit is in the position of mediatorship; He has part in it.

S.McC. Have you any thought as to why He is mentioned before Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, in verse 5? Generally the Spirit comes after.

J.T. "From him who is, and who was, and who is to come"; that is God. Then the Spirit and then the Lord Jesus in His humility, as Man here, carrying out the will of God.

A.J.G. Does the Spirit come before the Lord in this scripture because it is a question of God being here in the Spirit in support of the throne, and then Jesus Christ setting out in manhood the principle of faithfulness in suffering by which the rights of the throne are maintained.

J.T. Very good. So that we can now go on to the idea of what the Lord has done for us in making us priests unto God, "To him who loves us, and has washed us from our sins in his blood, and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be the glory and the might to the ages of ages. Amen". Well, we have come to the end there in that section. Then the next thing is. "Behold, he comes with the clouds"; that is a question of His coming personally in relation to the accomplishment of things and the administration in the future, in the millennium, I would say. "Behold, he comes with the clouds, and every eye shall see him, and they which have pierced him, and all the tribes of the

land shall wail because of him". So that He is now fully in our view, as the coming One, the One that is to set up everything, to set up the millennial day, and finish everything that God has in His mind to accomplish through redemption.

E.T.S. Is that why John bursts out in this note of praise as soon as Jesus Christ is introduced, the One who has accomplished redemption and won our hearts?

J.T. Just so! You feel how suitable it is. Everything is so suitable, and all centring in Christ.

G.H.W. Is this outburst of praise expressive of assembly response to the Lord Jesus?

J.T. I am not sure about that. The idea of the assembly would have to be put into it. Of course, there is assembly response, but I think we could find it later, in chapter 5.

J.C-S. It says: "To him who loves us". It is not exactly said to be the assembly, is it?

J.T. It is more the personnel involved; that is, christians; John is going to speak to christians. Then verse 9 says, "I John, your brother and fellow-partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and patience, in Jesus, was in the island called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus". We see John there who is the brother of the saints, I would say the assembly is purposely kept out of view, until the time comes for it, because, in fact, the assembly is about to be addressed by the Lord in a judicial way.

Ques. Is the coming of the Lord in verse 7 a challenge to the whole creation?

J.T. "Every eye shall see him, and they which have pierced him, and all the tribes of the land ..." that is the universal idea.

F.R.S. Why are you stressing the point of the brother?

J.T. Because of the expression, "your brother". How comforting it is that John is our brother; one like that who had such a place with Christ. He is the disciple whom Jesus loved, although that does not appear here.

P.H.H. Would John be a kind of sample of the brotherhood which is in the world, in a suffering position (1 Peter 5:9)?

J.T. Just so. That is how he puts it, "Your brother and fellow-partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and patience, in Jesus".

W.W. Would you say a word distinguishing between "the word of God" and "the testimony of Jesus"?

J.T. Well, the word of God is what God says. It is found in Hebrews 4, "For the word of God is living and operative, and sharper than any two-edged sword, and penetrating to the division of soul and spirit". Then in John 1 the Lord Himself is called the Word. It is a question of what God says, although sometimes it applies to the Person. Whilst therefore it is a question of what is being said in John 1, it is more than that. It is the Person designated in that character, I think "the Word" covers the Person.

Ques. Would not John taking the place of a brother tend to throw authority on the word of God?

J.T. I think the word would bring authority into our hearts, anyway. The word of God is what God says; it is the Logos. You might say it involves christianity; that is, what is being said by God, through Christ.

Ques. Does the expression, "I John, your brother", give a sympathetic touch?

J.T. Sympathy enters into John's address to us, and how that ought to appeal to our own hearts! He was "in the island called Patmos, for the word of God". He was there, in testimony, as a sufferer.

G.C.G. You were stressing a little earlier the necessity for going by what is written. Are you connecting "the word of God" with what is written for us?

J.T. I am using the expression which is well known in Scripture. The Word of God is God Himself, of course, nothing less than that. Whether you apply it to Christ or to God, it is God Himself. But then it is a question too of what is set out in testimony in the dispensation into which we have come. It is the character of the testimony now, not what will be in the millennium; it is what is going on now. We are to have part in the word of God and to be formed by it.

G.C.G. I was thinking that the word as coming to us would ever be substantiated by what is written. Have you that in mind?

J.T. I have, in measure, only I think we ought to keep to what is said in Scripture. In effect the Word of God is God Himself. Christ becomes it, and therefore it says of Him. "In the beginning was the Word". It is a designation of Christ personally, but then the allusion is to what He spoke and what has come out through His speaking. The Spirit of God, of course, is involved in that, and therefore He has part in the mediatorial system into which we have come.

A.J.G. Do you mean that the thought of "the word of God" is more than merely the expression of the mind of God, but God Himself coming out in revelation?

J.T. It is not only what is said, but what can be said, and all that enters into the dispensation into which we have come, showing the wonderful character of our dispensation. John has that in mind, and the Spirit of God has it in mind, and God Himself had it in mind when He gave to the Lord Jesus, in a mediatorial sense, this wonderful revelation; as it is

said, the "Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to him, to shew to his bondmen what must shortly take place".

S.McC. Would what the Spirit says to the assemblies be further unfoldings in connection with "the word of God"; that which may come out?

J.T. I doubt if there is much in this particular book of what is new in regard to revelation. What we are dealing with now, I believe, involves not only what the twelve said, or were given to say, but I believe Paul's ministry is involved in this book. I am saying this, subject to what the brethren may think, but Paul's ministry must be taken into account in the book of Revelation.

Ques. The assemblies that are addressed are really Paul's assemblies, are they not?

J.T. That is right.

L.E.S. So that the completing of the word of God would have this in mind?

J.T. Yes. That is the phrase that enters into it fully, "To complete the word of God", Colossians 1:25.

R.W. Has "the word of God" any connection with "made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father"? Is the word of God to come into expression through those who are priestly?

J.T. I would say so, because the word 'priest' would mean that we are in a condition suitable to have to say to God and to speak for God, on His behalf. I would say, therefore, that "and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father", involves the mind of God, and that God's mind was that His communications should be through priests.

Ques. Does it involve, "If any one speak-as oracles of God; if any one minister-as of strength which God supplies; that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom is the glory and the might for the ages of ages. Amen", 1 Peter 4:11?

J.T. Quite so. Therefore it is a question of God, and the wonderful dispensation that is unfolded to us, through Christ mediatorially. We are in that now. It is a question of God and what He is saying to us, and what can be said and will be said, too. It is a wonderful thing that we are here today, and we have the word of God in our hands, so to speak, and the word of God, in that sense, would be what He says. It is a question of what God is saying to us, and what He is ready to say. Of course, that would all come out not only through Christ, but through the Spirit as well, because the communications would be largely through the Spirit. Every scripture is inspired of God, and, in that way, the word 'inspiration' implies the Spirit, and what He does.

E.A.L. Would it help us to see that this revelation was given to Jesus Christ by God, and then in verse 3 we have, "Blessed is he that reads"; would that refer to the written words of the Spirit? I was thinking of the Lord's word in John 16, "I have yet many things to say to you; but ye cannot bear them now. But when he is come, the Spirit of truth, he shall guide you into all the truth". Would the things the Lord has in mind be the written voice of the Spirit?

J.T. Quite so. Although the word 'voice', of course, is not properly connected with writing, yet the expression 'the written voice' is quite intelligible and good too. So we have the voice of the prophets, which is what they say, or have said. And so it is what God may say or what He is saying; and what we are dealing with now, is what He is saying.

Ques. Would the statement, "God is in you of a truth" bring the authority and power of the word of God into our prophetic meetings?

J.T. It would, fully. The man that comes in at Corinth would fall down and say so, that "God is

in you of a truth". He reports it, and I hope some of the reports today will be such. It is the word of God, really, and we should not hesitate when we know it is so.

J.C-S. So that the value of this occasion would be that our minds and our affections are ready to be impressed with the word of God.

J.T. That is right. Then it is "the testimony of Jesus". That is to say, the Lord has His part in it, for it is what His testimony is. So we may well proceed to the part we did not say much about, namely verse 8. The One speaking there is God, of course, "I am the Alpha and the Omega". That refers to speaking, or to language, and the allusion is to God in the sense of One who speaks, or who says things, "He who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty". Then the next thing is what we have already been saying about John, and then we come to what the Lord says to him. John says, "I became in the Spirit on the Lord's day". Let us notice that; we are dealing with the Lord's day, "and I heard behind me a great voice as of a trumpet, saying, What thou seest write in a book". Now, it is a question of writing; "and send to the seven assemblies: to Ephesus, and to Smyrna, and to Pergamos, and to Thyatira, and to Sardis, and to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea". There we come to the end of another section of what John was to write. We have clearly set before us who John is, he is related to us, peculiarly, and he is the one whom Jesus loved, and now he is speaking to us, and telling us what he heard, and he speaks about the Lord Himself. He says to him, "What thou seest write in a book, and send to the seven assemblies", so that we are now where the book can speak to us. By that I mean there is a word for us as to what John says, for he is the one whom the Lord is using in the unfolding of what is in His mind.

W.C. Would becoming "in the Spirit" be essential to hearing this voice?

J.T. It is the state we are in; exactly. He said he was "in the Spirit", and that is the proper state either for ministering or for hearing.

C.M.M. Would "I became in the Spirit" be something which John did?

J.T. Well, he is able to take that attitude. It is an action of his own, you might say. It is a state that he is coming to in the power of the Spirit. So that it is becoming to us on the Lord's day.

P.H.H. Does it involve power in John himself?

J.T. I think it does. It is inward power, involving what any of us may become, or what we may change to. John clearly changes here; he became something else; that is, he became "in the Spirit".

Ques. Would that be additional to the beautiful qualities that had shown themselves in him earlier, in his being a fellow-partaker in tribulation, and so on?

J.T. I think so.

Ques. I was wondering whether it involved what was specific, in contrast to what may be characteristic?

J.T. Well, what is specific is seen in what he is becoming, something in which the Lord can use him. Then we proceed to verse 12; it says, "And I turned back to see the voice". This shows that he is interested, which is another point. It is not to hear the voice, but to see it. That implies that he expects to see something, and that is often a very good thing when we come together. We not only expect to hear something, but to see something, because it is a question of what the saints are. They are beautiful.

F.J.F. Is that what characterised Moses when he turned aside to see the great sight?

J.T. Just so, and he did see it, too.

S.F.P. Whose is the voice?

J.T. I would think that it is the Lord Himself: "And I turned back to see the voice which spoke with me; and having turned, I saw seven golden lamps, and in the midst of the seven lamps one like the Son of man". So that I would say the voice is the Lord's own voice.

P.H.H. Is there a suggestion of that in Isaiah 2? It says, "The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. And it shall come to pass in the end of days, that the mountain of Jehovah's house shall be established on the top of the mountains". Is the seeing of the word at all similar to seeing the voice?

J.T. Evidently he had in his mind what was to be seen. It was a great matter. May we always say that too; so that if we are at a meeting, such as this, and when we get home the sisters enquire about what was there, we have to say the things that we saw, and heard too. It is because we think of the brethren; we think of what they are, and how the Lord thinks of them, of course, and then we can say, Well, what did He say? Well, that is another thing. We have the idea of what we see and what we hear.

Rem. Mary in the garden, in John 20, turned to see the voice that spoke with her.

J.T. Very good. It is all a question really of what is to be seen and heard, and how the Lord Himself comes into it, and how we get disclosures, and how we change our minds too. We very often change our minds, and we hope we shall change our minds about things that we once heard and we are not quite free about now, because that is what these meetings are for.

Ques. Would the word in Malachi fit in, "Then they that feared Jehovah spoke often one to another; and Jehovah observed it, and heard"?

J.T. "And they shall be unto me a peculiar treasure, saith Jehovah of hosts". The whole matter enters into this chapter we are dealing with.

J.G. Would seeing involve the divine presentation, and hearing the subjective answer?

J.T. Quite so. The hearing, of course, brings in more than the seeing, because it is a question of what may be inside. The Holy Spirit is in the believer, and, therefore, there is much more to be heard than there is to be seen.

L.E.S. Would you say that Ezekiel's position as seen in his book and his name meaning 'strength' would fit in largely into this?

J.T. A good deal. That book is peculiar to what we are speaking of now. Of course, we all know that the book of Revelation is very much like what Ezekiel presents to us, but what is the specific thought in your mind?

L.E.S. He says: "This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of Jehovah. And when I saw, I fell on my face, and I heard a voice of one that spoke. And he said unto me, Son of man, stand upon thy feet, and I will speak with thee. And the Spirit entered into me when he spoke unto me, and set me upon my feet; and I heard him that spoke unto me".

J.T. The Spirit was speaking, and it was a conversational matter really between the prophet and the Spirit.

H.W. Would this matter of seeing and hearing underlie properly all true ministry? I was thinking of what the Lord says to Nicodemus in John 3. "We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen". There is the seeing and the hearing brought to us in the power of the Spirit. John, in his epistle, enlarges upon it when he says: "That which we have seen and heard we report to you".

The Lord Jesus seems to have ministered on that principle, and also His servants, the apostles.

J.T. Quite so. As we run down John 3, we get all these things. If we read fully a few more verses, perhaps we shall get a little more.

A.J.G. It reads, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that which we know, and we bear witness of that which we have seen, and ye receive not our witness. If I have said the earthly things to you, and ye believe not, how, if I say the heavenly things to you, will ye believe? And no one has gone up into heaven, save he who came down out of heaven, the Son of man who is in heaven".

J.T. Well, that is wonderful: "The Son of man who is in heaven". That is mysterious; it is mystery and what is presented as mysterious is one of the things we should keep closely before us. We cannot assume to know fully; we have just to look into it. We are only creatures, we are not divine, but we can just bow ourselves and be glad that we hear so much. There is a little more to say there, if you would kindly read it.

A.J.G. "And no one has gone up into heaven, save he who came down out of heaven, the Son of man who is in heaven. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, thus must the Son of man be lifted up, that every one who believes on him may not perish, but have life eternal".

J.T. That is the point that I was thinking about. In John 3 we are led up to life eternal, which implies redemption and the Spirit. We have the Spirit as well as being redeemed, because we cannot have life except by the Spirit.

H.W. John, in his epistle, speaks of that as something which he saw. He says. "The eternal life which ... has been manifested to us".

J.T. Yes. That appears in John's epistle.

Now we might go on from verse 17. We have seen the Lord Jesus Himself, in the section from verse 12, in His judicial character, dealing with the seven assemblies judicially. He is not building them up but, as it were, judging them. Then in verse 17 it says: "And when I saw him I fell at his feet as dead; and he laid his right hand upon me, saying, Fear not; I am the first and the last, and the living one, and I became dead, and behold, I am living to the ages of ages, and have the keys of death and of hades. Write therefore what thou hast seen, and the things that are, and the things that are about to be after these. The mystery of the seven stars which thou hast seen on my right hand, and the seven golden lamps. The seven stars are angels of the seven assemblies; and the seven lamps are seven assemblies". We thus have the whole matter now set out before us, so that we may proceed into it intelligently in the following readings. The Lord lays the whole matter open to us. He lays it open to John, and it is for us to take it in and ponder it, and then perhaps we would be able to help one another more fully.

P.L. In the presence of all the assembly sorrows, we have a model in John taking upon himself, in becoming humility, the grief of the whole position.

J.T. Quite so, "I fell at his feet as dead". The Lord did not rebuke him. He was rebuked by the angel later, in similar circumstances, but the Lord does not rebuke him here. He accepts it, and it is very suitable that we, in our attitude towards the Lord, should accept the position humbly, and then the Lord says, "Fear not", so that our hearts are assured. In this wonderful book, we are assured that the sufferings or the judgment are not for us; they are for others. Then it goes on: "I am the first and the last, and the living one; and I became dead, and behold, I am living to the ages of ages,

and have the keys of death and of hades". And then the Lord tells him what he is to write, which is a good point for us. In any written ministry, let the Spirit of God tell us what to write.

L.E.S. There is an interesting footnote to the word 'send' in verse 11 which says, 'have it written and sent:' it is to be a complete thing done. Then we have, in verse 19, "Write therefore what thou hast seen". Would that enter into the matter of completing the present ministry?

J.T. That is just what I was thinking, too, "Write therefore what thou hast seen, and the things that are", (these are the classifications of the things to be written about) "and the things that are about to be after these". And then the explanation; "The mystery of the seven stars which thou hast seen on my right hand, and the seven golden lamps. The seven stars are angels of the seven assemblies; and the seven lamps are seven assemblies". So that the whole matter is stated in the first chapter.

Ques. Verse 17 says, "He laid his right hand upon me". Is that for strengthening him?

J.T. That is the idea, exactly. It is what the Lord is Himself, the impartation of the power that is in Him. John is to be a partaker of it.

Ques. Is John like Daniel in the Old Testament, exemplifying the truth that the greatest love receives the greatest light?

J.T. Very good. He was the disciple whom Jesus loved, and the Lord is showing that He does love him. He is taking him up, in confidence, as one capable of writing such a book as this.

Rem. Daniel is addressed as one greatly beloved.

J.T. Very good.

THE MEDIATORIAL SERVICE OF CHRIST AND THE HOLY SPIRIT (2)

Revelation 2:1 - 11

J.T. It will be understood that we are not considering the whole book of the Revelation, but thinking rather to stress the Lord's addresses to the assemblies; that is to say, the plural thought; it is the idea of the assembly worked out in localities. It is also intended to look at the closing chapters of the book, where we shall find the assembly, not as here on earth, but as coming down from God out of heaven, complete. This will enable us to look at chapter 19, and the remaining chapters, especially the last. What is in mind now, is first the address by the Lord to the assembly at Ephesus, and then secondly the assembly at Smyrna. It is to be noticed that the first chapter conveys a description of the Lord Himself as in judicial garb. What is in mind is judgment, only there is the acknowledgment of what there may be that He can approve, making full allowance, too, for the vessel through whom the Lord was speaking, that is John the evangelist, as we call him, though more properly John the prophet in this book. John is told to write, and then the detail is given as to what is meant in the different symbols spoken of. So it says: "Write therefore what thou hast seen, and the things that are". "What thou hast seen" is the first thing mentioned, and then the conjunction, "and the things that are", and the second conjunction, "and the things that are about to be after these". Then the explanation in verse 20, "The mystery of the seven stars which thou hast seen on my right hand, and the seven golden lamps. The seven stars are angels of the seven assemblies; and the seven lamps are seven assemblies". Then we get the immediate word to the angel of the

assembly at Ephesus. The word 'angel', it may be remarked, is not to be taken as a literal angel, but rather as symbolic, as a representative.

P.H.H. Would it be diverting you to say another word about verse 8 of the previous chapter? "I am the Alpha and the Omega, saith the Lord God, he who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty". Did we understand you to say that referred to Christ?

J.T. Yes. The allusion to the Greek language would point to the Lord's own speaking. The Lord is the One who is speaking, and He speaks of Himself in that sense: "who is, and who was, and who is to come". That is to say "who is", the present first, and then the historical, and then the prophetical.

A.J.G. That would seem to be confirmed by chapter 22 where, after saying, "Behold, I come quickly, and my reward with me, to render to everyone as his work shall be" it says, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end".

J.T. That confirms, and we have in mind to reach the end of the book, but we shall reach it in relation to the assembly intact. There the assembly is presented, not as here on earth, or as continuing the service here, but as coming down from God out of heaven. That is to say, her place is in heaven; indeed we might say, using a word well-known, she is indigenous to heaven. The first part, however, does not mean that, but gives the responsible side of the position.

C.O.B. Is there a principle in John being told to write in a book and send to the seven assemblies; it is one book?

J.T. I think there is. It is as if God intends to have the idea of the book in our minds, because the Bible is really The Book of God, we might say. It is one idea, only greatly enlarged from the outset.

The beginning is by Moses; he is the first writer, and John, you might say, is the last. Although that may be questioned, that, in reality is how the matter stands. It only stresses what we are saying, as to the importance of what is written. We have what is said, of course, but we have what is written as well.

Eu.R. Does the Lord being seen in this judicial garb in the midst of the assemblies show that He has His own appraisement of the whole responsible history of the assembly from beginning to end?

J.T. Yes. He is saying something about it, but He is not confining what is presented to Himself. He also adds, "He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies". Therefore we must consider what the Spirit says as covering the whole dispensation in the sense of ministry. We are to heed not simply what is formally stated by the Lord, but whatever the Spirit says, and that is through vessels taken up to be used of Him in the building up of the assembly, and the elucidation of the responsibility of it.

J.C-S. What would be said by the Spirit through them would be in concert with what is said by the Lord Himself.

J.T. It would be just the enlargement of what the Lord says. What the Lord says is in a few words, but what the Spirit says covers the whole dispensation.

A.J.G. Would that involve that the Lord, in pointing out things that needed to be corrected in the local assembly, in five cases, at any rate, out of the seven, has in mind that the assembly should link on with the universal ministry of the Spirit?

J.T. Quite so. You say universal ministry, I suppose you mean the real ministry, not what is professedly ministry, such as we get abroad in the denominations?

A.J.G. No, I mean what the Spirit has to say to the assembly as a whole, in contrast to what the Lord has to say to a particular locality.

J.T. Quite, or to particular localities. The word 'localities' would have to be regarded in the sense in which it is used in the letter to Corinth, which presents the idea of the local assembly.

Ques. Would "with all that in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ" link on with the general position?

J.T. That would be the idea. It is every place; it shows how large it is, and how the whole earth, really, is in mind, for the Lord has His rights in it. He puts His right foot on the sea and His left foot on the earth. So the position is universal in that sense; He has rights everywhere.

Ques. You said the angel was symbolic. Of what is it symbolic?

J.T. It is representative of the whole assembly responsibly; we are all included. That is the idea of the assembly, only it is given under seven different heads. So that we begin with one of them, the angel of the assembly at Ephesus. That is the idea of local position, and that shows us how important it is. How important the epistles to Corinth are and should be in connection with what we are saying, for the idea of the assembly responsibly is seen there! The first letter to Corinth indicates the true idea of local responsibility.

Ques. Why does the Lord begin with Ephesus?

J.T. I suppose He intended Ephesus to represent the whole of His work; the full thought of His work through Paul.

Ques. Is that emphasised by the fact that while the Lord is addressing Ephesus He presents Himself as holding the seven stars in His right hand, and thus the whole work is in mind?

J.T. And it implies that His power is in it, so that what is done is in power. So that gift has to be taken account of in that sense. It is His very best. It says in Ephesians 4"Having ascended up on high, he has led captivity captive, and has given gifts to men".

L.E.S. You were referring to Paul's link with the Revelation. Would this have a bearing on Acts 20, in which we are told that he had not shunned to declare unto them the whole counsel of God?

J.T. I think he takes it that way himself. Besides, the great thought in that chapter is love, showing that Paul's ministry was carried on in love. It is not merely what one may be able to say and do in the sense of power to speak, and to lay out things, but that what is done is done in love.

A.J.G. Would that give force to the Lord's words, "Remember therefore whence thou art fallen"? They had really fallen from love.

J.T. I would say that fully. Therefore the challenge to our hearts is as to what we are going on with and what we have in mind. If we are going on to the end then we want to be thus in love. It is a question of love and God is going to finish, as He began, with love.

F.C.H. Is not Christ's own love for the assembly included in verses 4 and 5?

J.T. It is the love of Christ, and everything is to be on that basis. Paul said, "The love of the Christ constrains us".

J.C-S. Is it interesting that Paul in giving the Ephesians the basis for his prayer in regard of them, says, "Having heard of the faith in the Lord Jesus which is in you, and the love which ye have towards all the saints". That seems to be the basis of his prayer.

J.T. Very good, "The love which ye have towards all the saints".

Ques. Referring to the local position, does it emphasise the importance of chapter 13 of 1 Corinthians, a chapter of love? It says: "If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing".

J.T. Quite so. We are therefore challenged as to partisanship, involving special persons or links. We are to be governed by love in everything, and not be special in our likes and dislikes, "If I have ... not love, I am nothing". We may as well admit that.

P.H.H. Would it be the work of love there which had caused them to try what was false, and refuse it?

J.T. Surely it would. The Lord is accrediting them with that, and, of course, it is quite important that anything that the Lord can approve He does approve; at the same time. He does not fail to disapprove what is to be disapproved.

P.H.H. I was thinking that ministry by itself is not sufficient, but we need the building up in love.

J.T. The building up in love, exactly. We sometimes hear that intelligence puffs up, but love builds up.

P.H.H. Would it be love that helped them to endure? "Thine endurance", and then later on, "and endurest".

J.T. Just so.

H.H. Is not the Lord justifying Paul's ministry in these chapters, in that Paul had to say in 2 Timothy that all that were in Asia had turned away from him?

J.T. What we have said as to this book involving Paul's ministry would be applicable to what we are saying now.

J.C-S. Ephesus in particular is the peak of it, do you think?

J.T. Exactly. The Spirit of God makes much of Ephesus. We know how much He says about it, and how much detail is given as to what was involved. I thought it was very remarkable that the value of the books burnt at Ephesus should be given, according to Acts 19:19, as fifty thousand pieces of silver. It is well to notice what was involved, and how much is said about the work at Ephesus.

S.McC. It says in verse 2, "And thou hast tried them who say that themselves are apostles and are not, and hast found them liars". Do you not think it is a commendable feature, that things and persons, in that way, should be tried or tested?

J.T. Just so. These are the Lord's own words, you notice. Paul and others speak about lying too; in fact, throughout this book we shall get much about that sort of thing. We are therefore not to be afraid to speak out what is implied at any given time, or in any given case, and to say the full expression that is needed. So the word 'liars' is a very strong word, and the Lord is using it here, saying: "and hast found them liars". Ephesus was accredited with that.

S.McC. It would be apparent that they did not just accept everything in that way?

J.T. Quite so. How much lying there is abroad in the profession of christendom in what is called ministry. Hence the importance, for those who are professing to walk in the truth, of being truthful, "Let God be true, but every man a liar", Paul says.

Rem. There is a word in the epistle to the Ephesians which says, "having put on the new man, which according to God is created in truthful righteousness and holiness".

J.T. Very good, "Truthful righteousness and holiness".

Ques. Is it not remarkable that the enemy's first effort at Ephesus was to set up a false apostleship,

as though to change the foundation. It says, "Who say that themselves are apostles and are not".

J.T. That is a very solemn assertion. Paul says: "Such are false apostles".

A.M. Paul speaks in a similar manner in Acts 20 when he says, "For I know this, that there will come in amongst you after my departure grievous wolves, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves shall rise up men speaking perverted things".

J.T. It is clear that the word for the moment is to be truthful, and to be free from partisan feeling. The passage in Acts 20 stresses perverted things, meaning what had been done from the very outset. We need not mention a certain system that is to be thought of and that enters into this book peculiarly, but the whole system of christianity is perverted in that system. It is literally perverted in the words and the terms they use. It is now seeking to gain the confidence of Protestantism, but it is not to be trusted at all. It has the same character as ever and God is not going to let it go. He is going to deal with it fully, as this book, particularly chapter 18, shows.

W.C. Would the "synagogue of Satan" in Smyrna be a development of this false apostleship? That seems to go through, even to Philadelphia, as if the assembly has to face that power of opposition and imitation.

J.T. The word 'synagogue' is a religious term, and that system we have already alluded to carries it through, and makes much of it, in all the varied forms in which it is seen in christendom today.

P.H.H. Does the assembly, as spoken of in 1 Timothy, stand over against this, Timothy having been left at Ephesus? I was thinking particularly of chapter 3 which speaks about conducting oneself in God's house which is the assembly of the living God, the pillar and base of the truth. Would that be Paul's

exercise through Timothy, as over against the false apostles and liars?

J.T. Quite so. Timothy would represent a feature of service wholly at the bidding of the apostle. He is Paul's child in the faith; a man subject entirely to Paul.

Ques. It says in Ephesians 4:25, "Wherefore, having put off falsehood, speak truth every one with his neighbour, because we are members one of another", and the note to the word 'falsehood' reads, 'everything that has the character and nature of falsehood. It is abstract, what has this quality, not merely the act of lying'. Does that bear on the way in which things may appear to be true, but are perverted and give a false impression?

J.T. Quite so. Perverted things are the most dangerous; they are the most deceptive.

J.C-S. You referred to the perversion of the truth in christendom generally, but do you suggest there is even a danger among those who minister, that sometimes, in their desire to have something new, they go beyond the Scriptures and pervert the truth?

J.T. Yes, and especially if we have peculiar ability to speak, and the apostle speaks of that. Paul's traducers said about him that his speech was contemptible, but, at the same time, God was using it. We have thus to be on our guard not to rely on mere ability to speak, but to bring in love in what we are saying, and thus be marked by building up things.

J.T.Jr. 1 Corinthians 14, therefore, as introducing the matter of prophecy, says, "Follow after love".

F.J.F. How would they discern those who were false apostles? Would it be by the Spirit's teaching that they had received?

J.T. Let us read what is said about it. The Lord says, "I know thy works and thy labour, and thine

endurance, and that thou canst not bear evil men; and thou hast tried them who say that themselves are apostles and are not, and hast found them liars; and endurest, and hast borne for my name's sake". Now your question is how did they find that out; and I would say by the Spirit. The Spirit is here by us all the time. He is our Paraclete here below, as Christ is that above, and therefore He is here to help us to discern what is wicked or bad in ministry.

P.L. Would it be particularly as the Spirit of truth?

J.T. As the Spirit of truth, exactly.

D.J.M. As in Acts 5, "Why has Satan filled thy heart that thou shouldest lie to the Holy Spirit?"

J.T. Very good.

A.J.G. Does not John himself in his first epistle give a lead in this matter of discerning the spirit of what is put out as doctrine? He says, "Hereby ye know the Spirit of God".

J.T. Quite so. And then his allusions to the word 'unction', as we understand the meaning of the word, "The same unction teaches you as to all things", 1 John 2:27. He refers to the saints as having the means of knowing all things by the unction, which alludes to the Spirit, of course. But the word 'unction' is a striking word, and should be understood.

Eu.R. "I have not written to you because ye do not know the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth. Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is the antichrist who denies the Father and the Son", 1 John 2:21, 22. That kind of thing is all abroad in christendom now so that we need the Spirit as the unction.

J.T. The unction is the point that John makes in the first epistle.

P.H.H. Would you just say a word about it, and the importance it has in your mind?

J.T. The allusion is to the Spirit, of course, but a peculiar word is used, which would show that John understood, and knew that the saints understood too, and that he could speak to them with intelligence. It is a great matter for those who minister to speak with intelligence, and to see that they know the terms, and the saints know the terms as well.

Ques. Is it encouraging that even the little children have the unction?

J.T. Yes, it is very encouraging. It is not little children literally, but little children comparatively. The saints are first addressed as children, then specifically as fathers, or as young men, or as little children. Little children are persons who are least formed in the good of the truth of christianity.

S.McC. It is striking how the thought of the lie is brought in in relation to the unction. It reads: "And yourselves, the unction which ye have received from him abides in you, and ye have not need that anyone should teach you; but as the same unction teaches you as to all things, and is true and is not a lie".

J.T. Showing that it is not really what any brother can say in a so-called reading meeting, but it is a question of what the expression 'all things' covers. The unction therefore is a peculiar word, and has to be understood in that sense. All things are within the range of christian teaching. It says: "And they shall be all taught of God", and christianity undoubtedly is the prime thought in the whole system of teaching. So that the teaching depends on the unction, and the Spirit of God is really what is meant. In the setting out of the truth at any time, whether it be in our assembly meetings, or in ministry,

or writings, or whatever it may be, the unction is the basis of all.

P.H.H. Is it the anointing of the Spirit as particularly affecting the mind?

J.T. Particularly affecting the mind, is good, I would say that, because the Lord's supper is the great centre of everything, it is the beginning of everything for us as to the service of God, and the mind is that which is stressed in it. It is the calling to mind of the Lord Jesus Himself. See footnote to 1 Corinthians 11:24. That is where the mind is affected, and I believe it is the beginning of everything in the service of God.

Ques. Do you think "the holy one" refers to the Spirit there? "The unction from the holy one".

J.T. Undoubtedly. The basic thought in all this is the Spirit.

Ques. The Scriptures would have their part?

J.T. Surely, because every scripture is divinely inspired, and that means the Spirit of God has to do with it.

Rem. With reference to your remark as to what is abroad in christendom, John in speaking of the saints in his epistle refers to them as knowing the Father and having the Spirit; he does not go below that.

J.T. Then John writes his gospel as well as the epistles, and the gospel of John recognises the Spirit as bringing about new birth, which is preliminary to the truth of the Spirit received.

Rem. I had in mind what you were saying about things being perverted, and I thought John was safeguarding the standard in the way he speaks of the little children.

J.T. You said he does not go below, but then John goes down to new birth, too.

Ques. But is not that the operation of divine Persons from their side sovereignly?

J.T. But that is the Spirit. We are speaking of the Spirit, and John 3 gives you the Spirit, and being born of the Spirit.

P.H.H. In what is said, "Remember therefore whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works", is there a repentant revival contemplated?

J.T. I would say that. But when the Lord says, "Do the first works" he means something definite and specific, that can be pointed to, not only in a general sense. I think it is very important in ministry that there should be something that can be pointed to specifically, and that we deal with specific things.

E.C.M. Do you connect "the first works" with the continuing in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and breaking of bread and prayers?

J.T. Well, just so; only we are dealing with Ephesus, and the work of God at Ephesus, the failure of it, on the one hand, and what is commendable in it, on the other.

A.J.G. In view of there being so much that is commendable in Ephesus, and yet of the fact that Ephesus is the beginning of the departure that is now so evident on every hand, would you say a word as to the import of leaving "thy first love"?

J.T. It is an act; it is a solemn act. We say such an one is going out of fellowship, or growing cold, but the time comes when he leaves; he takes a definite attitude, and so the Lord says, "Will ye also go away?". We must take account of what people do themselves, not only what they say or have in their minds, but what they actually do.

A.J.G. Do you mean that this was a certain attitude of mind in regard of Christ that had developed at Ephesus, that they had left the simplicity of affection which marked them at first?

J.T. They left their first love. That is, there is no thought at all in Ephesus, or in the book, of full recovery. It is what they had done, and that is

specified; they left their first love. That could be specified, but then the Lord goes on to say, "Do the first works"; let them be specified too. Our brother spoke about Acts 2, but then we are speaking of Ephesus, and it is a question of the first works that marked Ephesus. Therefore we shall have to look into Acts 20 to see what the first works that marked that assembly were.

Rem. You reminded us of the words spoken by the Lord Jesus in the question He put to the disciples: "Will ye also go away?" Peter answered, "To whom shall we go?". He does not say, where, but "to whom".

J.T. Quite so. It is a question of a Person; leaving the Lord Jesus, in other words.

P.L. Would first love involve the assembly's sense of her place in the heart of Christ, and the sense of Christ's place in her heart?

J.T. Well, I would rather connect the things with the saints, as to whether love is seen amongst us, I am not saying a word against what you are saying, only we have to be specific so that we can put our fingers, as it were, on the thing we are talking about, whether it is in the saints or not. We may say it is in Christ; well, that is very general, but we want to see how the saints are getting on.

Ques. Are you thinking of the expression of love towards Paul in the end of Acts 20? It says. "And having said these things, he knelt down and prayed with them all. And they all wept sore; and falling upon the neck of Paul they ardently kissed him".

J.T. Quite so. It would be a remarkable thing that they were kissing the great servant through whom the light had come to them, but then when we come to the saints themselves we want to keep in mind what marks them. It is not simply the great apostle, the servant through whom the truth has come, but what the saints have; what marks the

saints, and that, of course, must be involved in any word to Ephesus.

J.C-S. So that it is not the measuring of ability, but the measuring of what is really formed in love?

J.T. Just so. It is a question of what there is in the saints, really. So it goes on to say, "Remember therefore whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works". Well, all these can be pointed to. Then the Lord continues, "But if not, I am coming to thee, and I will remove thy lamp out of its place, except thou shalt repent. But this thou hast, that thou hatest the works of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate". So the Lord can refer to something that was hated at Ephesus, and that can be pointed to, also. It is not a general idea, it is some specific thing that is hated.

Ques. What is involved in the expression, "But if not, I am coming to thee"?

J.T. I would say it is a question of the Lord coming in and dealing with some local assembly, or something in some local assembly. As He comes to us on the first day of the week in love, so He comes in, at other times, in judgment. It may happen at any time. "Coming to thee" conveys the thought that He is apt to be there, in the way of judgment, as judging sin. It is a very solemn thing. Sometimes things happen and we wonder at it, but the explanation may be that the Lord has come into a matter.

Ques. Is that in keeping with the remark in the gospel of Mark, that He "looked round on all things"?

J.T. Just so; "on all things", whatever they may be.

Rem. It is as coming into the temple and the sphere of profession, that He looked round on all things, I thought it was an illustration of what you were saying.

A.J.G. Do you mean that we are to keep in mind that the Lord maintains this attitude of walking in the midst of the assemblies judicially?

J.T. Quite so. Many a time I have thought of it. The Lord, in the gospels, alludes at times to His coming Himself. He comes at times; He takes His own time and we cannot say that the Lord must be there, because He says, 'I will be there if I will be'. The Lord has His own rights, and therefore if He comes to us to judge things, He will judge them, but if He comes to evaluate and praise things, He will do that. Therefore we might connect His coming here with John 14, "I am coming to you".

P.H.H. Does your remark about specific things explain why sometimes we take long to get free in a meeting? We may think it is just a general state, whereas the Lord would have in mind specific details which need attention?

J.T. That is just what I am thinking. We are too general in our remarks about matters, whereas we ought to be specific about the things. When we come to our so-called care meetings, we try to be specific, and we may arrive at a judgment in assembly, but the Lord Himself has to come sometimes. And so at Corinth, I would say the Lord Himself came there and dealt with that incestuous man.

R.B. Are you thinking of Paul's remark, "What will ye? that I come to you with a rod; or in love?"

J.T. Exactly.

J.O.S. Then there is the word to Gaius as to Diotrephes, "If I come, I will bring to remembrance his works", 3 John 10.

J.T. Now we shall have to proceed. In verse 7 it says, "He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies". That is the first mention of the Spirit's work. "To him that overcomes, I will give to him to eat of the tree of life which is

in the paradise of God". We have now come to what the Lord is promising; that is to say, we count on His promises in these epistles.

F.C.H. The Lord said, "It is more blessed to give than to receive". Is there not His own joy in giving these portions to the overcomer?

J.T. Quite so.

P.H.H. What is the exact meaning of the overcomer, in this setting?

J.T. The idea of overcoming is a general thought covering these epistles. The Lord sets Himself out as the great Overcomer at the end of John 16, and also in the word to Laodicea. "Who is he that gets the victory over the world, but he that believes that Jesus is the Son of God?" 1 John 5:5. We get there the true idea of overcoming, in that sense; but this is a more general idea, and covers the whole of these epistles.

H.W. Would you think that the gospel by John is intended to help us to be overcomers, in the apprehension of the Person of Christ? It was supposed to have been written after the Revelation, I understand.

J.T. Just so.

Ques. Would not the man in John 9 be a good example?

J.T. Very good. The opposition was great, but he overcame it, and the Lord took him on as soon as He saw that. It says the Lord found him, which is very comforting and precious, and He says, "Dost thou believe on the Son of God?". That is just what we are talking about, that overcoming is bound up with belief in the Son of God. But, in these epistles, if is more general than that; the word is not specified.

W.C. Does verse 7 indicate that the Spirit is on the line of recovery by being Himself the Spirit of overcoming?

J.T. Well, quite so.

W.C. Now that "what the Spirit says to the assemblies" is mentioned, an overcomer is contemplated.

J.T. Yes. We must confine ourselves, in the main, to being specific, in that sense, to what the Lord says, and that is what we get here, and so "He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies". But, the Lord says, "To him that overcomes, I will give to him to eat of the tree of life which is in the paradise of God". It is the Lord's own word, but He is not telling us just what to overcome means; it is for us to understand; it is there.

Ques. Is it significant that it is addressed to an individual, to all who may have that character?

J.T. Very good-"to him". Now we must go on to verse 8, to get to the end of the passage. What is to be said here is that Smyrna is the great suffering assembly. Suffering had come in, as if the Lord had taken account of what had happened at Ephesus and was allowing suffering. He specifies that there will be the ten days of suffering, which is a remarkable thing, and that is to save the whole position, I would say, but especially Smyrna. It is a suffering assembly, but salvation is by suffering, which we ought to recognise.

A.J.G. Is it encouraging that while the suffering comes through means of the devil, as it says, "the devil is about to cast of you into prison", yet the Lord has control of it and limits it to ten days?

J.T. Exactly; the Lord Himself has control of the devil, which is very comforting. The whole matter is under His hand.

L.E.S. Would it suggest that it is not so much a matter here of their works, but what flows out of their works? He does not say, "I know thy works" but "I know thy tribulation".

J.T. That is what He says, "I know thy tribulation and thy poverty; but thou art rich; and the railing of those who say that they themselves are Jews, and are not, but a synagogue of Satan. Fear nothing of what thou art about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast of you into prison". He goes on to set us up fearlessly, in entire independence, as overcoming the opposition there is. This is the state of things at Smyrna. It is a most encouraging word.

A.M-h. Would it be like the Lord's word in the last verse of John 16"In the world ye have tribulation; but be of good courage: I have overcome the world"?

J.T. I would say that, fully. It is almost the centre of John's thoughts in the gospel and it is to encourage the Lord's people.

A.H-n. Is that seen in Acts 9, "Saul, still breathing out threatenings and slaughter", and the section concludes with: "The assemblies then throughout the whole of Judaea and Galilee and Samaria had peace, being edified and walking in the fear of the Lord, and were increased through the comfort of the Holy Spirit"? I wondered if the suffering began in the first part of chapter 9, and the divine answer is seen in the close of the section.

J.T. Very good. The word 'assemblies' is doubtful there, but it is the general idea, I think, and they had comfort, the comfort of the Holy Spirit.

P.H.H. Is it significant, the way the word 'life' and the thought of what is living appears in these passages?

J.T. I thought of it as we were reading it, I omitted referring to that; so that it is well now to refer to the various references to what is living in the word to Smyrna, for it is a very comforting word.

P.H.H. First of all, the Lord says of Himself, in verse 8, "These things says the first and the last,

who became dead, and lived", and then at the end of verse 10, "Be thou faithful unto death, and I will give to thee the crown of life".

J.T. It reminds you of the apostle Paul saying, "Having the desire for departure and being with Christ, for it is very much better", I believe he is saying there that we need not fear death, and we are all very prone to fear it, and to fear it too much. But we are to learn how not to fear it, as the Lord Himself said, "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul, but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell", Matthew 10:28. Therefore I think the word is very important; that is to say, we will not be afraid of death.

P.H.H. What about the tree of life, in verse 7? Would that fit into that theme?

J.T. It is the full idea of life, of heavenly growth. It is taken up again in chapter 22.

P.H.H. In the end of chapter 1 the Lord refers to Himself as the living One who became dead, and then "living to the ages of ages". Then the references made here, including Himself, and then the tree of life and the crown of life. Is there something peculiarly sweet about the tree of life?

J.T. I think there is, and about the crown of life, too, because the crown refers to ourselves; it does not refer to the Lord. He said He would give them the crown of life, I think it is a word for us, and I have felt it very much. How prone we are to be afraid of death, instead of going through in the will of God and accepting what comes to us, and accepting it joyfully, because it is a question of joy.

Ques. Is that illustrated in Acts 16-Paul and Silas wonderfully unafraid overcomers in the Lord?

J.T. Wonderful! They sang in the prison and the prisoners were listening to them, which is very

beautiful! They were listening to them in their sufferings; but they were singing, they were engaged in the service of God, in spite of the suffering. Their feet were made fast in the stocks, and they were suffering, but they were singing, and the prisoners were listening to them. There was a regular congregation there that they did not expect.

Ques. Was it not exemplified particularly in the early martyrs of this period of the assembly's history?

J.T. Just so. This period is the time of the early martyrs, and, of course, the idea of martyrdom was prolonged in the Reformation. Those of us who have had part in the revival have not had much to contend with, in that sense, but the Lord may cause us to come into it unless we are awake to it. There is a terrible time ahead of us; the great apostasy is ahead of us and almost imminent, and we may as well face it.

Ques. Is the full thought of it in 2 Corinthians 1:9, where it says. "But we ourselves had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not have our trust in ourselves, but in God who raises the dead"?

J.T. That is right. We have the sentence of death in ourselves. That is to say, it cannot be any worse. And then the joy that Paul alludes to is very beautiful. He says, "Having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better", and, of course, that means victory, and the apostle Paul leads the way in it.

J.C-S. Are you suggesting that we are getting near the time when the conditions that are present in Smyrna may be repeated? The name Smyrna means 'myrrh'. You may say that odour permeates this epistle to them, and the suffering seems to bring it out, so that the Lord has nothing whatever to complain of among them, nothing to disapprove.

J.T. Myrrh-yes, quite so, "If indeed we suffer with him, that we may also be glorified with him", Romans 8:17.

S.McC. Would not this particularly be of encouragement to our brethren universally, faced with the trade union matter? And do you not think it would help them to face it?

J.T. Exactly. And the Lord is helping them too, and giving deliverances. Some of us know well enough what it is.

Ques. Is it to be noted that while the devil may cast into prison, it is that "ye may be tried". Is it to bring out the reliability of divine workmanship?

J.T. Just so; and that recovery may take place, too; because the man at Corinth was recovered sooner than Paul expected it. Recovery may take place. Paul says: "To deliver him, I say, being such, to Satan for destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus". But his body was saved too, meaning that God saved him. So we are told, "Is any sick among you? let him call to him the elders of the assembly, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil", and so forth (James 5:14). So we may look for recovery on those lines.

Ques. What is implied in the ten days of tribulation?

J.T. The numeral ten would carry the thought of responsibility. It is a complete thought from the standpoint of responsibility. Twelve is the complete thought as regards administration, but ten is responsibility. I think the Lord is saying that they are responsible and that they are gaining through it.

Ques. Is there something distinctive in this promise being made to the whole assembly, not simply to the overcomer, this conditional promise, "I will give to thee the crown of life"?

J.T. Very good. You mean the whole assembly at Smyrna?

Rem. Yes. We should aim at that in our localities.

J.T. Quite so.

Ques. Would not suffering help in that direction, by bringing everyone into it?

J.T. Just so. We do not want to be out of it. If suffering was going on, we would be ashamed to be out of it, I mean to say, it is a thing to be accepted; it is a privilege. "For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake", Philippians 1:29. I am not saying that any one of us is ready to do it, only we can say perhaps a little more than we are ready to go in for. At the same time, I can see clearly that the Lord here is pointing these things out to us.

F.J.F. Is it our testimony that causes the suffering?

J.T. It may be; but it may be also a privilege, because the Lord says to Peter, "When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst where thou desiredst; but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and bring thee where thou dost not desire", John 21:18. I think the Lord was saying to Peter, 'I am going to give you the privilege of suffering, of being martyred, for Me'. Peter is particularly the martyr; I mean to say, that he particularly loved, or thought of, the sufferings of Christ, but I believe it meant that the Lord said to Peter, I will give you the privilege of being martyred.

R.W. Is the suffering in view of reigning? The suffering here leads up to the crown of life.

J.T. Quite so, "If we suffer, we shall also reign".

Rem. The idea of being "faithful unto death" is very challenging. We sometimes draw back at the loss of a good job or some other material gain, but

it seems to call for the facing of death as in the path of faithfulness.

J.T. The crown of life is immediately promised; but then we have just to keep on with what we are saying, that suffering unto death means that we come actually into death. This might make the thing too pointed so that we might shrink from it. Sometimes in martyrdom we have heard of these things, particular sufferings, causing people to shrink from death, I believe what the Lord is saying here is that it is a privilege to die. "Be thou faithful unto death", that is the actual article; do not be afraid of it.

Rem. The way that the Lord sets Himself before us here is very encouraging. He says, "Who became dead, and lived".

J.T. He became dead; it was His own doing. He knew what He was doing; He became dead, and lived; it was His own action. We can do that, too, in the sense that we can accept death; it is given to us to die, of course, but it may be a test to us. We might feel it, and the Lord is saying here, "Be thou faithful unto death"-unto the actual article of it.

Ques. Would you please open out what is involved in the word 'faithful'. Is it to the Lord, or is it to the truth?

J.T. I would say, to be true to whatever principle of doctrine may be involved; to be true whatever you are committed to; take it up absolutely, in the reality of it.

P.H.H. Does the anointing help us in this? Referring to the remark about the myrrh, there was a large quantity of myrrh in the ingredients of the anointing oil. Would therefore the anointing help in regard of the suffering?

J.T. I think it does. As our brother says, the word 'Smyrna' means that. Of course, it is designed to be put there; the Lord meant it to be put there.

It should thus be in our minds in a general way, that it is a time of suffering.

J.O.S. Esther was purified by the oil of myrrh for six months, and then later she faced death.

J.T. Very good.

J.C-S. So that in this suffering there is no exit, so to speak, apart from death.

J.T. It is the only thing, and the Lord is saying, Be faithful to that. He does not specify suffering. He says, "Be thou faithful unto death".

J.T.Jr. Paul says he is already poured out. Would that be the thought in mind, that he was already fit for the great change? He speaks of the crown of righteousness, which I suppose would be a similar thought here?

J.T. Just so. He was like an oblation, poured out.

Ques. Does Stephen set out the thought of a man faithful unto death?

J.T. I think he does, perfectly. He is intended to do it. He is called "thy martyr". Paul calls him the Lord's own martyr.

THE MEDIATORIAL SERVICE OF CHRIST AND THE HOLY SPIRIT (3)

Revelation 2:12 - 29; Revelation 3:1 - 6

J.T. It might be worthy of notice that the addresses to the assemblies may be taken to be historical as well as prophetical. That is to say, we can reckon historically from the letter to the assembly at Ephesus to the fifth one; we reckon the time that has elapsed. It is a question, however, of spiritual understanding, that the historical matter becomes clear after we come to Philadelphia, because the letter to that assembly is so definite that it is clear that the Lord meant, in that letter, to convey that He was thinking of the assembly as a whole. Laodicea, however, ends up the matter, and the Lord is seen there as spewing the whole public assembly out of His mouth. Hence it becomes very serious and solemn when we come to Laodicea. At the same time it is clearly helpful and instructive to keep the historical matter in mind. We can tell pretty well where we are, as we proceed from the first, and especially from Thyatira to the end; because Thyatira is collateral in time with the last three, so that we are now in the midst of it. Therefore we can discern that Sardis treats of the period of the Reformation. Thyatira, however, is earlier and runs collaterally with Sardis, the Romish system being now current and will be current to the end. We may thus reckon where we are at any given time, but especially now as we come to Pergamos, and then also when we come to Thyatira, because Jezebel points to a historical condition which is running its course. The later part of the book contemplates her in a political sense, where she is seen as the woman that rides the beast; but here in chapter 2 she is seen purely ecclesiastically. It is well to notice all this, as I believe it will clarify what we are now about to speak of.

S.McC. Is that what Mr. Darby had in mind when he referred to the protracted scale in this book?

J.T. I would say that. Things are extended, so that any student of the book of Revelation can gather up, from time to time, where he is, where we are, ecclesiastically, to use that word. When we come to the political side it becomes also obvious because the woman that rides the beast is no less than Jezebel, so that, from the political standpoint, the position is changing.

A.J.G. Would it be right to regard Thyatira as the last of the first four, and therefore the climax in the development of evil in the professing body, but also the first of the last four, being the first one that goes right through to the end?

J.T. Quite so. She takes on another character from the standpoint of the Roman empire; that is, she rides the beast, which refers to the Roman empire.

J.A.P. Do you regard Pergamos as a past phase?

J.T. It is, from the standpoint from which we are speaking, as are also Ephesus and Smyrna. Thyatira, however, continues to the end.

C.M.M. Is the lamp withdrawn with Thyatira?

J.T. I would think so. The Lord does not recognise the ecclesiastical position any more. Then we can readily see that Thyatira involves instruction as to the final state of things; I mean to say, final in the sense of iniquity, and we can see where we are. So that what you get in verse 24 of chapter 2 is: "But to you I say, the rest who are in Thyatira". The word 'rest' there is synonymous with the word 'remnant' and it is something that God has secured for Himself in that stage of the history of the assembly. The word 'rest' implies that we have come to remnant times, which become most interesting for us, and, of course, ought to be compared with first Timothy, and second Timothy particularly, as regards the remnant.

A.E.D. Is the thought of the remnant carried over in the fact that in the last four the overcomer is referred to before the word, "He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says"?

J.T. Quite so. There is a change as to the position of the overcomer. Then the Lord eases the pressure upon us, as He says in verse 24. "But to you I say, the rest who are in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, who have not known the depths of Satan, as they say, I do not cast upon you any other burden; but what ye have hold fast till I shall come". That is to say, from the Lord's point of view, there is some relief for us from the remnant standpoint; so that the Lord eases the burden. We all know how He speaks of the burden Himself in Matthew 11"Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me; ... and ye shall find rest to your souls", and I believe there is a reference in that to the letter to Thyatira.

R.W.S. Does the expression, "as they say" represent the saints being accused?

J.T. "As they say", would refer to what the opposers were saying; the Lord is assuring the godly, or faithful, amongst the saints that He knows.

R.W.S. "The depths of God" would be known amongst the saints, in a sense; are they being accused of knowing "the depths of Satan"?

J.T. Just so. It is over against that point.

F.C.H. Would you say a word as to what is hidden and secret in relation to Pergamos as over against the public side earlier?

J.T. To quote Mr. Darby:-

'Called by that secret name
Of undisclosed delight
(Blest answer to reproach and shame),
Graved on the stone of white'. (Hymn 79)

I think that is a pretty good answer to your inquiry.

F.C.H. Does it not speak in John's gospel of the Lord Himself going up in secret?

J.T. Quite so. As we had it last night: "He hid himself". That is, He did not expose Himself outwardly; and why should we expose ourselves and give an advantage to the devil. In all these matters we are actually in contact with the devil; so here, "I know where thou dwellest, where the throne of Satan is; and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in the days in which Antipas my faithful witness was, who was slain among you, where Satan dwells". So that we do well to take notice of these features, because we are in direct conflict with the devil. The Lord is aware of that, and He puts it into His letters from time to time, that they were having direct conflict with the devil.

J.C-S. Do you think that is why He introduces Himself as the One with the sharp two-edged sword, the idea of conflict being in view?

J.T. Very good. We have already had the idea of the word of God in Hebrews 4, where it is said to be "sharper than any two-edged sword, and penetrating to the division of soul and spirit, both of joints and marrow, and a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart".

A.J.G. Is it significant that in Pergamos there are those who hold the doctrine of Balaam and hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, apparently not yet openly teaching it, but holding it secretly? Does that bring into evidence the necessity for the sharp two-edged sword?

J.T. Quite so, I would say that fully, because Pergamos, in the history of it as in the letter, involves that the Romish system had already begun; the public assembly had become degenerate. One can see that the degeneration was there in the days

of the celebrated emperor Constantine. That is where the thing began, I believe.

P.L. So that the detective power of the word is found in the sharp two-edged sword?

J.T. Quite so. It is a question of the word, and that is what exposes in the ministry.

J.C-S. Was Balaam compelled to express the word of God?

J.T. Quite so. So that we have here the doctrine of Balaam. As was just said, the doctrine may be there and not openly expressed, and so also in Thyatira it may not be openly expressed, but usually it is perverted things in Thyatira. I am not sure whether we can apply the idea of perversion, or perverted things, in Pergamos; things are hidden rather.

Rem. In the record of the killing of the kings of Midian it is said that Balaam was slain by the sword.

J.T. Showing that the idea would be there, aimed against him.

P.L. Would Phinehas illustrate all this?

J.T. He would, indeed; he lived at the same time as Balaam.

C.M.M. Would you spare us a word as to Joshua 5, the man with his sword drawn in his hand.

J.T. The drawn sword is there for it is a time of conflict. Joshua had been the leader at that time, but the man with the drawn sword would undoubtedly be some allusion to the Spirit of God, because the Spirit of God is seen secretly in such instances in the Old Testament. It would be some allusion to the Spirit Himself.

A.E.D. Would that link more with the word, "the sword of the Spirit, which is God's word"?

J.T. Well, we have alluded to the word of God already, as mentioned in Hebrews 4.

W.S.S. Is it significant, in connection with what we have been saying about the word of God, that in

these three assemblies we have first God Himself in relation to the word; and then the Son, and then the Spirit? It says in chapter 2, verse 12. "And to the angel of the assembly in Pergamos write: These things says he that has the sharp two-edged sword"; this has the word of God in mind. Then in verse 18, "These things says the Son of God". And then in chapter 3, verse 1, "To the angel of the assembly in Sardis write: These things saith he that has the seven Spirits of God".

J.T. All that is quite instructive, I am thankful you mentioned it, because it opens up much.

W.S.S. I was thinking of what you were speaking of in connection with the truth historically, as to the order in which it is opened up in the days of recovery in which we are privileged to have part.

J.T. Quite so. So that we have first of all the idea of the Word of God, which is most important to keep before us. Then the Son of God, which is, of course, the Lord. He is not so described in chapter 1, but still it is a most precious presentation of Him. That is to say, the allusion is to the house, for the Son of God is over the house of God. He that built all things is God, but Christ is Son over the house. Therefore the word to Thyatira points to the Lord's authority over the house, and points to what He says as to Jezebel, and all the terribleness of her conduct. She aims at being the word herself; as some say, 'The church says so-and-so'. She claims to have the voice of God; whereas it is just an apostate reference. She is an apostate; she is in an apostate condition; it is a woman. Then the Spirit of God in chapter 3 points to the Spirit in power in all that He implies. It is "the seven Spirits of God", showing that we have full power now to deal with the doctrines that are set out, not only in Thyatira but since the Reformation.

W.C. Would the reference to the Son of God and His eyes as a flame of fire suggest His resentment as to the bondage of Thyatira, the saints being brought into the bondage of Romanism; the Son of God stands for liberty?

J.T. It is the spiritual power of the word, the Son of God coming in; that is, the authority of Christ as Son over the house. He has full authority over the house, and that is challenged by the conduct of Thyatira, by Jezebel.

D.J.M. "She who calls herself prophetess". Is that the church?

J.T. That is true. That is just the idea, and it is over against the word and the authority of the Son of God.

J.C-S. Who shall speak after the Son?

J.T. Just so.

P.L. Have you all the divine Persons taking up the issue militantly? The Word of God, and the Son of God, and the Spirit of God.

J.T. Very good. We must not overlook the man with the drawn sword, for I believe the allusion is to the Spirit, how the sword of the Lord is used.

F.J.F. Is that seen in the Lord as Son supporting Martin Luther, when he stuck to the word and faced the whole of the conflict?

J.T. Quite so, 'Here I stand; I can do no other', he said, I believe that is the idea. He stood out, and that introduces Sardis, but it really comes in in Thyatira, because it is a question of Rome's authority, Rome's claims; Luther stood out against it. He says, 'I can do no other'. He was a real martyr. He failed, alas, in the doctrine, but at that time, he was a real martyr.

H.F.N. Is there any link between the thoughts in chapter l, "the seven Spirits which are before his throne" (verse 4) and becoming "in the Spirit on the Lord's day" (verse 10) and then what you have

referred to this morning, "He that has the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars" (chapter 3: l) and then in chapter 4, "Immediately I became in the Spirit; and behold, a throne stood in the heaven"? Is there a link between those references to the Spirit?

J.T. I think there is. Perhaps you could enlarge on it for us.

H.F.N. Well, one was only thinking of the Spirit in all the plenitude of His power, as suggested in the expression "seven Spirits which are before his throne", maintaining the rights of the throne, and then, in regard to privilege, how we become in the Spirit on the Lord's day. Then there is what you have referred to, the fulness of power, and then, finally, how we become in the Spirit and are caught up into heaven and get a vision of the throne. But I would like some help from you in regard to that.

J.T. The only thing to be said immediately is that chapter 4 refers to the things that shall be after these. We are now dealing with things that are. But what you say is very touching, especially the becoming in the Spirit on the Lord's day, as John does. He says, "I became in the Spirit on the Lord's day". It opens up much to us as regards the service of God.

S.McC. In regard to the man in Joshua, that you have referred to, he says, "For as captain of the army of Jehovah am I now come". Would it be a suggestion, in a hidden way, of the Spirit in regard to a certain phase of things?

J.T. I would think so, I felt that we should not pass it by without commenting on it, because the Spirit is in the conflict too, and it was an opportune time in Joshua's day. Joshua represents the conflict, we might say, and the Spirit of God comes in there. He appeared there to him and said to him, "Loose thy sandal from off thy foot". I believe it

was the Lord the Spirit there, in authority, in the conflict.

F.J.F. Is that why you could worship Him?

J.T. Quite so; why not? As we often say, the Spirit is to be worshipped, for the Spirit of God is God Himself, in a certain sense.

J.T.Jr. Is not that the force of the word of God in Hebrews, that "all things are naked and laid bare to his eyes, with whom we have to do"? Is that not really the Spirit?

J.T. Well, I would go with that.

A.M-h. When David went down to Ahimelech he asked for a sword, and Ahimelech said, It is wrapped in a cloth. What would you say about that?

J.T. You would wonder about wrapping the sword in a cloth, I would say that it ought to be in use at that time. Of course, David was ready to use it, in time.

A.M-h. I was thinking how we need to be in possession of the idea of the sword.

J.T. It does not seem in keeping with the idea of the conflict for the sword to be wrapped in a cloth; it is not in action. If we wrap up the word of God in a cloth, it fails in its power.

Ques. Does Paul use the sword in Acts 13 against the man who tried to hinder the deputy from hearing the word of God?

J.T. I would say so. He was, however, a type of the Jew, and so the judgment was to be for a season; meaning that the Jew would come to light again, I would think, in time, in the millennium.

Rem. At that point it says, "But Saul, who also is Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, fixing his eyes upon him, said, O full of all deceit and all craft", I was thinking of his name, Paul, and his being "filled with the Holy Spirit".

J.T. Quite so. The word there is, "Thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt

thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?" A certain man in America, who was a circus man, wrote over here to Spurgeon and offered to hire him, and Spurgeon in replying quoted that verse, "Thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?" I have often thought of that, and I would say that it is only right that we should bring Spurgeon into Sardis. I do not want to enlarge on that, but I just felt that it was a good opportunity to suggest that there was a faithful man, in that matter, in Spurgeon. He refused the subtleties of the devil to turn his services into devilish work; that is, into circus work.

E.C.B. Would the word fit in, "Behold his couch, Solomon's own, threescore mighty men are about it, of the mighty of Israel. They all hold the sword, experts in war; each hath his sword upon his thigh because of alarm in the nights", Song of Songs 3:8?

J.T. Your suggestion is that the sword is there to be used, and it was to be used in relation to Solomon, which would be in relation to Christ. The word of God would defend the Lord Jesus, when attacks are made upon Him.

Ques. Is it not remarkable that in the address to Thyatira all the assemblies are referred to: "All the assemblies shall know that I am he that searches the reins and the hearts"?

J.T. It is remarkable. It indicates that the Lord would have the situation that has arisen in regard to Rome, which is Jezebel, made known to all the assemblies. Does it not suggest that God has worked in the Reformation and that things have become known? Rome has been exposed, so that it no longer has the power it used to have. As a matter of fact, it is courting the sympathies of Protestantism, and we have to watch that. The brethren may not

know that; but it is true, that Rome is courting the sympathies of Protestantism. In fact, they are claiming that they are the first church and all the other denominations belong to it, which is a remarkable thing, I do not believe the brethren know about that, but that is the truth.

J.C-S. Is that the object in bringing out a new version, to try and make a kind of affiliation?

J.T. Quite so. An English version of the New Testament was published four years ago. It is a subtle matter and we have to watch it.

P.L. Are they not claiming that Protestant believers are the soul of the church, if not the body?

J.T. Well, that is exactly what a man said to me on the Atlantic. He was a monk, and he spoke to me about Rome and so forth, and then he spoke to me about my soul, and I said, 'What would you think about me?' I spoke to him as a monk. I told him that I was converted in Ireland. He was an Irish monk, and he said to me, 'How did you become converted?' I told him, and he said, 'Were your father and mother christians, Protestants?' I said, 'Yes', and I went on and told him my history, and I said, 'Now, where would you place me?' I am sure he did not know what to say, because ordinarily he would say I was a heretic, but he did not say that. He said, 'You belong to the soul of the church'. It was a remarkable thing, but that is what they claim, and I think he was forced to say it. He did not know what to say. But now they are coming down toward Protestantism, because of communism. We might feel there was not much to choose between communism and Romanism, but I would rather have Romanism than communism. Communism is out-and-out infidelity. Rome, of course, is infidel too, in a way; but, at the same time, it is not out-and-out infidelity.

W.S.S. Do you not feel that these movements which are taking place form a kind of dark background against which the truth of the Holy Spirit is shining out?

J.T. I would say that, fully. The Holy Spirit is working and the Spirit is calling attention to Himself, and the brethren are coming to it. Only the Spirit is not wishing to make everything of Himself. He wishes us to accept the truth as it is in the New Testament, I would say. At the same time the truth of the Spirit is in the Old Testament too, but it is not so definite as it is in the New; we must keep with the New Testament, at the same time recognising the Old as Scripture. Therefore it is the Old and New Testament properly, but at the same time we must recognise the precedence of the New Testament.

Ques. Would you say that the understanding we have that God holds the balance of power and arranges matters, for instance, in regard of Roman Catholicism and communism, would leave us free to pursue what really belongs to us and not be too occupied with what sways men at the present time?

J.T. Not too occupied, but it is not wrong to have some light as to what is current, because we are afforded light in the government of God as to certain things, and it is quite right to pursue what we have in the way of light. It may be dim but still it is light in its own self.

Ques. Do not prophetic scriptures clearly show that all is working according to God's plan, and He holds the balance of power in His own hand, and we are to be aware of that?

J.T. Well, He does, but then there is the government of God, too.

Ques. Could we have a word as to the way in which the Spirit is spoken of in this book: "the seven Spirits of God" or "the Spirit", and not "the

Holy Spirit", or "the Spirit of Christ", or "the Spirit of Jesus"?

J.T. Well, the "seven Spirits of God" is, you might say, a symbolical reference. The whole of the book of Revelation, in measure, is symbolical, and the term seven is just that. The understanding lies in the numeral seven; that is just a question of the fulness of the Spirit, I would say.

Rem. And then "the Spirit" would be that Person in deity, in contrast to the seven Spirits, "What the Spirit says to the assemblies", is that a reference to His deity?

J.T. Quite so. It is the Spirit of God that we are dealing with. The Spirit of God is a divine Person; He is one of the three divine Persons; He is God Himself. So that "He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says", is an allusion to the Spirit of God.

A.J.G. Would you say that He is presented as "the seven Spirits of God" in an assuring way, because of the power of the opposition to the truth?

J.T. Just so. It is the fulness of the Spirit. It is a peculiar term and it is not found in the epistles. It is really symbolical of the power of the Spirit in the sense in which it is used in the book of Revelation. It is without doubt the Spirit, it is just a symbolical reference and it implies fulness; the fulness of the Spirit. We ought to keep to the idea of a symbolical thing when we are dealing with symbolical scriptures such as Ezekiel. There are terms such as, 'seraphim'. What is a seraph? Is it a being? I do not think it is; I think it is a symbol. Take Isaiah 6, or any passage that treats of the seraphim, and the cherubim. What are they? Are they beings, or are they symbols? I should like the brethren to say now; what do you think; Mr. G.?

A.J.G. I would say they are symbols.

J.T. Well, quite so. What do you think, Mr. L.?

P.L. Surely.

F.C.H. The seraphim are not mentioned, are they, apart from the symbolic reference in Isaiah 6, where the holiness of God is asserted thrice, probably involving the Trinity? I cannot recall any other reference.

J.T. Well then, we may as well leave it, and look into it, and see what the words 'seraph' and 'cherub' mean, whether they are beings or whether they are symbols.

H.W. Would it be right to suggest that they may have been symbolic of divine attributes?

J.T. Well, quite so; they are symbols.

Ques. Is there anything to learn that one of them flew with a live coal from the altar (Isaiah 6:6)? I thought the cherubim were symbolic of the rights of God; whereas the seraph, while still containing that idea, had a peculiar touch of grace in this scripture in the fact that one of the seraphim flew unto him (that is, unto Isaiah) and he had in his hand a glowing coal which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar. I wondered whether that showed that, intermingled with the rights of God, there was a peculiar sense of grace towards the prophet.

J.T. There are the rights of God, but there is the holiness of God too, and the cherub and seraph are used in those connections; so that I would advise the brethren to look into it themselves, because I believe many think they are just beings.

H.F.N. Did you not refer, some years ago, to the seraphim and link them with John's gospel, and the cherubim with the other three gospels?

J.T. Well, there are certain links in which all that is true.

Now I think we might as well go on with our scripture, for we have not much time and we have not fully covered Thyatira. We have alluded to much

that is very important for us to understand, and now we have this matter of the burden. The Lord says in verse 24. "I do not cast upon you any other burden; but what ye have hold fast till I shall come". The Lord is saying that He is not overburdening the saints; which I think is very touching and it ought to affect us; it suggests that things are not quite so heavy as they might be. There was much persecution at the time of the Reformation, of course, but then that has subsided. Although it went on after Thyatira, Protestantism implies that it was not so severe; there was some lightening of it.

P.H.H. Could you liken the voice of the Son of God here at all to Solomon's remarks on coming to the throne, in meeting the heavy opposition centring in Adonijah and so on? I was thinking of Solomon in the way he suggests the Son and the way he causes these opposers like Adonijah, Joab and Shimei to be dealt with. Would this result in the lightening of the burden for the saints?

J.T. Very good. Perhaps you would enlarge on that, so as to make it clear for us.

P.H.H. It says that Nathan the prophet came in and exposed the position. Would that be, in a certain way, like the position being made clear to us in the Lord's address to Thyatira? Then the position of these opposers, each one in his own turn is made clear to Solomon-the Son, as we might say-and he causes each one to be dealt with, and the saints are eased of what might otherwise have been a great apostate burden.

J.T. Quite so. David had exposed the position generally, although he was tardy in dealing with it, but, in due time, Nathan the prophet, we might say, is the instrument that God used to expose the whole position. Hence Joab is brought into judgment, and others who are secretly opposed to Solomon, I suppose you have in mind that in Thyatira there is a

secrecy in opposition to Christ. Perhaps you would enlarge further on that.

P.H.H. It says that "Zadok the priest, and Nathan the prophet, and Benaiah the son of Jehoiada ... went down, and caused Solomon to ride upon king David's mule", 1 Kings 1:38. Would those elements, the priestly element, and the prophetic element, and the military element, all help us to stand against the great system that is coming in?

J.T. Just so, I think there is a good deal of instruction in that, especially in how Solomon himself acted, and then how those that were guilty secretly, were brought into judgment. We can count on that; and so Jezebel is going to be brought into judgment. "And her children will I kill with death", the Lord says here.

E.C.B. In relation to what you are saying, would not Matthew's gospel come in as a great support? Matthew 16 especially, and the last verse of the gospel. Is there not great comfort in the assurance that hades' gates shall not prevail against the assembly, and in the Lord's presence with us all the days?

J.T. All that is most assuring.

Eu.R. You referred to Jezebel and her children. Have you in mind that her children would suggest the different systems of Protestantism now, to a large extent, taking on some feature of Rome?

J.T. "And her children". It is a question of what there may have been in the dark ages of Europe and how Rome's children came into prominence and were killed with death. I should think the word 'death' would mean just apostasy; that there is an apostatising spirit current, and it is current now too. Certain ones are becoming affected by apostasy, and of course, communism would be that in time. But where it says Jezebel's children, it refers to Rome, that system; it is apostasy and nothing less than that.

E.A.L. Thyatira represents the public position and at present we see Rome is inclined to make much capital out of the attitude of certain high clerics in Protestantism. Is that somewhat like the sword of Goliath, the uncircumcised Philistine, being used to take off his own head? He had defied the armies of the living God. Then, too, is it like what we get in Corinthians where we see the messenger of Satan being used to help Paul that he might not be over-exalted after being in the third heaven? The messenger of Satan is used to do the work of the Lord, so nothing can be done against the truth but for the truth.

J.T. Very good. That is to say, at Corinth there was a messenger of Satan sent to Paul, so that he might not be exalted above measure. The Lord says to him, "My grace suffices thee; for my power is perfected in weakness"; and therefore the apostle says, "Most gladly therefore will I rather boast in my weaknesses, that the power of the Christ may dwell upon me". We have therefore a solution of the whole matter in regard to these questions that are now before us.

E.A.L. I would like to refer to the remark of beloved Mr. Darby, that when he would be privileged to break bread on the Lord's day he would think of the brethren in the systems. Do you not think we ought to have right feelings about such?

J.T. That is good. I would say that too. We cannot ignore what God is doing with them, even although they are not walking in the full light in which we are, through grace. That is to say, the revival is to the full light of christianity, the full light of the assembly; but, at the same time, there are those who are not coming into the full light, and of course, we must be patient with them and wait on them, having in mind that God may deliver them.

J.W.B. Is there a remnant in Thyatira now?

J.T. I think so.

P.L. Mr. Darby wrote two addresses 'to his Roman Catholic brethren by a minister of the Gospel'.

J.T. And then he says another thing that is over against that, that the notion of a clergyman is dispensationally the sin against the Holy Spirit. That is to say, the idea, or notion, of a clergyman, and that is not in Rome only, it is in Protestantism also.

A.J.G. Is that what is referred to in the Lord saying to Sardis, "I have not found thy works complete before my God", in that the clerical system was not overthrown in Sardis?

J.T. Just so. They have not gone to the full length.

Ques. Referring to Thyatira; the word in verse 20 is, "Thou permittest the woman Jezebel", and then in verse 21, "And she will not repent"; not she would not but "she will not repent". Does that expose the boastful claim to authority of the Church of Rome?

J.T. That would bring out just what has been remarked, that the political side of the position which begins in chapter 4 with the throne seen standing in heaven, has in mind that Jezebel comes into judgment, but not as Jezebel but as the woman that rides the beast. It is the same thing, the same system, only she is viewed politically, for she rides the beast, and so her doom is predicted; it is intimated, or seen; in chapter 18 of the book we are reading.

Rem. Over against what is said as to Jezebel, the word to the overcomer in verse 26 is "to him will I give authority over the nations".

J.T. That is, there is moral power with the overcomer. The Lord is not simply speaking now of a literal sword, but the moral power that is with the overcomer. So that He says, "He that overcomes,

and he that keeps unto the end my works, to him will I give authority over the nations, and he shall shepherd them with an iron rod; as vessels of pottery are they broken in pieces, as I also have received from my Father; and I will give to him the morning star". All these are promises to the overcomer, and I think they are on moral grounds. These promises are what we are coming into as the remnant, in the midst of Protestantism. The coming of the Lord is the answer to all this.

N.K.M. What would the Lord particularly be referring to when He alludes to "my works" in speaking of the overcomer? "And he that keeps unto the end my works".

J.T. There is what the Lord is giving us to do, in our own little way now; what the Lord is apportioning to us as viewed as the remnant in Thyatira.

A.E.D. And is the Lord referring to His mediatorial service in the word, "as I also have received from my Father", in contrast to Rome, where it is denied?

J.T. What He receives from His Father is what He has come into, and the overcomer in Thyatira is coming into it, which is very comforting to us. These promises are very comforting for us. Then chapter 3 refers to Sardis, so that we have now come to the actual Reformation. What is said there shows that Sardis has not answered to the Lord's mind in completing things; but there is a word that ought to comfort us, and that is, "These things saith he that has the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars". That is to say, He has the Holy Spirit in fulness. The Lord has fulness of spiritual power in His own hands; Sardis has not got it, the Lord has it. The ecclesiastical system in Protestantism has nothing really in the sense of full spiritual power; the Lord has all that. Then the next thing is, "I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and

art dead". That is to say, things are in a dead condition in the Protestant system around us. At the same time, the Lord says that He has the seven Spirits of God, and He has the seven stars.

Eu.R. What is the import in that He has the seven stars?

J.T. Well, it is just that He has control of the position. The assembly has not control; Protestantism and all the councils and synods and so forth, they have not anything. The Lord has not committed anything to them in that sense, but He has committed something, as we shall see, to Philadelphia. We have not come to that yet, but we shall see that the Lord has something there.

A.J.G. Would it be right to say that the deadness of things in Sardis is entirely due to the non-recognition of the Spirit?

J.T. I would think that is fully the truth. We have already quoted the remark that 'the notion of a clergyman is dispensationally the sin against the Holy Spirit'; the Holy Spirit is denied in that sense.

Ques. Would you say a word on, "Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard"-not 'what'?

J.T. All the ministry that had come out in the Reformation, including Luther because God gave him a place I am certain, is alluded to. It is a question of what Sardis has received, and whether they are keeping it and going on with it. And so it goes on, "Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and keep it and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come upon thee as a thief". He is saying He will come upon them, just as He comes to the world. There is no difference between Protestantism and the world. When the Lord comes He will deal with them as the world.

R.W.S. It says in verse 4, "But thou hast a few names in Sardis which have not defiled their garments,

and they shall walk with me in white, because they are worthy", I am enquiring about some of the hymns in Sardis to the Holy Spirit. Would this be an allusion to such?

J.T. It is possibly an allusion to the ministry of some. If we look over our hymns we find that some of them were written before the revival began, and, of course, we cannot but recognise them. We recognise the merits of these hymns, and the value of our hymns and our hymn book is an important matter to bring up just now. Some of us went over the hymn book in 1932, and the Lord gave us this result. The question now is whether there can be anything more done. Anyway, it is important that each one of us should take to heart as to whether we know the hymn book, and all that there is in it, in a spiritual sense.

H.H. What about these hymns to the Spirit, should they be put in?

J.T. It is a question of their importance. There is no one who would undertake to say we should have another revision. I certainly would not, I think we have a good hymn book, and we should go on with it as it is. It costs a great deal to revise a hymn book, and I doubt very much whether it is needed. At the same time it is well to take notice of anything that comes in that may be called an addition to what we have spiritually, and there are many such. Many hymns have come to different ones as regards the Spirit, and they are good too, and profitable, and worth reading.

Rem. There are over forty hymns in the book that have some reference to the Spirit.

Eu.R. There is no hymn in the book which is addressed to the Spirit.

THE MEDIATORIAL SERVICE OF CHRIST AND THE HOLY SPIRIT (4)

Revelation 3:7 - 22

J.T. I think Mr. McC. wishes to refer to something left over from our reading this morning.

S.McC. I wish to ask whether there is a reference in verse 2 to the place of Christ in the mediatorial position. He refers to "my God" in that unique way, "I have not found thy works complete before my God".

J.T. Well, in Philadelphia we have: "He that overcomes, him will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more at all out; and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven, from my God, and my new name". No doubt you will think it well that we might open the whole subject as to the Philadelphian epistle, so that we may get what leads up to this matter and the verse I just read. The question of Philadelphia is vital; it is of peculiar value or importance. In truth, as was referred to in prayer, the latter glory of the house is in mind. That is to say, the whole idea of the assembly is in the Lord's mind and not simply a phase of it; hence the word thy applied to Philadelphia. It becomes, therefore, a matter to which the brethren will wisely give full consideration. Although the idea of remnant is seen in Thyatira, yet what is alluded to in the book of Haggai is not a remnant properly. It is the whole idea of the latter glory of the house; that is to say, applying it to ourselves, the latter glory of the assembly. Perhaps therefore we may somewhat revise our thoughts of a remnant, seeing that the whole idea of the assembly is in the Lord's mind in this address to Philadelphia.

H.H. Would not that mean that the remnant becomes the whole assembly?

J.T. Well, yes. We use the word 'remnant', but Philadelphia represents, in the Lord's mind, the whole assembly, and that gives it a magnitude that perhaps we have not applied to the assembly for the latter days. It is not simply a remnant, but the whole idea of it, and the Lord is going to close with that.

L.E.S. Would the word in Haggai 2 have the same thought in mind? "The word that I covenanted with you when ye came out of Egypt, and my Spirit, remain among you: fear ye not".

J.T. Quite so. That is just what was in my mind, because the covenant is the full idea, and then we have "my Spirit". "The word that I covenanted with you when ye came out of Egypt, and my Spirit, remain among you".

P.L. All that connecting with intactness; "Jehovah of hosts" involving completeness?

J.T. Quite so.

J.C-S. Then is the assembly, as seen in this epistle to Philadelphia, the assembly in its totality, so to speak?

J.T. Well, it is in the Lord's mind, I am making much of that, because He has a right to say what He pleases, and He is pleased to speak to Philadelphia as representing the whole assembly. He is pleased to indicate that. It is not, of course, strictly what Ephesus was; it cannot be. At the same time the references that the Lord makes indicate that, in His mind, the whole assembly is there. Of course, we have to make allowance for the condition of christendom, that is scattered and broken, and we have the really infidel condition of the church publicly at the present time, and yet the Lord has never given up the thought of it, and He is reverting to it now in this epistle.

Ques. Do you mean that what the Lord finds in some He credits to all who form the assembly?

J.T. Well, quite so; but you use the word 'some'. I would prefer to use the word 'whole', the whole idea, as making much of the Lord's mind and what He has a right to say, the actual words that He has a right to use. That is, it is not simply reduced in His mind to a mere part, but the whole idea, as if He were holding on to the whole idea of the assembly, and going to close with it.

P.L. Do you have that set out also in the gospels, that when He cleansed the temple He called it His Father's house?

J.T. Quite so.

J.C-S. Does what you were saying in regard of the assembly viewed in this way account for the Lord not introducing any one of the features that marked Him in His judicial garb, as given in the first chapter? He is pleased with Philadelphia, is He not?

J.T. Just so. He has nothing to say against it; in fact, He is approving it. He is using the pronoun 'thee' as if He were speaking to the whole; but then He has a right to do that. It is a question of the liberty that He has and that He takes.

F.C.H. "The holy, the true"; does that refer to manhood or does it include Deity? "These things saith the holy, the true".

J.T. Well, I am not sure about that. If we refer to John 6:67, we shall get a touch on that. The Lord says, "Will ye also go away?" And Peter says, "Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast words of life eternal; and we have believed and known that thou art the holy one of God". There it is a question of the Person of the Lord Jesus, but in our passage now He is pleased to refer to Himself as "the holy, the true", and He is referring to something that should be in the assembly and was in Philadelphia.

A.J.G. In John 6 we have the Lord confessed as "the holy one of God" and then, in John 7, He says of Himself, "He that speaks from himself seeks his own glory; but he that seeks the glory of him that has sent him, he is true", I wondered whether you got the holy and the true in those two chapters?

J.T. Very good. Then again, of course, we have in the first epistle of John, "He is the true God and eternal life". That same term is used of the Father in John 17, so that the words have to be taken in their context, and it raises the question as to why the Lord connects the idea of holiness and truth with Himself in speaking to Philadelphia.

A.M-h. Does the emphatic I in the last clause of verse 9 give the whole idea, "I have loved thee"?

J.T. I was thinking of that. The pronouns throughout would indicate that the Lord has the whole idea in His mind, but then it is a question of what He is pleased to have in His mind. It is not to go back to the beginning of the dispensation, but just to recognise the liberty the Lord is pleased to take, in writing these epistles. The pronouns throughout, as I was saying, indicate that the Lord has the whole idea in His mind, but then that is what is due to Him. We should not question it and we should not limit Him to what should be said literally in so many words. It is a question of what He is pleased to have in His mind in writing this particular letter.

A.E.D. Would the expression, "I have loved thee", link on with the love of Christ for the assembly in Ephesians 5, and the way in which He has retained the whole thought, in view of the presentation and the word that it might be holy and blameless?

J.T. Quite so; if the Lord's words here just imply what Ephesians 5 says. The Lord's words are, "I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an opened door". That is the assembly at Philadelphia.

The Lord would indicate that He is thinking of the whole assembly, and yet the meaning has to be understood by the actual wording of the Lord, by what He says; the "thee" is Philadelphia. That is to say, it is a phase of the assembly and not the whole assembly.

W.C. Would this be the work of the seven Spirits of God, the complete establishment of every assembly thought? In Sardis the Lord is said to have the seven Spirits, as if the Spirit had no scope in the Sardis conditions. Here would it be that there is the full answer?

J.T. I think it would. The Lord had in mind to speak as if the assembly was present there, as if the Spirit was in the assembly, and the Lord is addressing the assembly. At the same time we have to make allowance for the fact that He is using the word thy to a phase of the assembly called Philadelphia, a feature of the assembly. So that we are bound, I think, to recognise the wording that the Lord uses. The question of the Spirit must come in, of course, in Philadelphia, but then it does not come in until the Lord says, "Let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies". The Spirit, of course, is implied, we can see this, but then the Lord is not stressing it. In writing to Sardis He stresses the idea of the Spirit in the employment of the numeral He uses; that is, the seven Spirits of God. There is a fulness of spiritual power which He has, but it does not say that He is using it; but He has it.

P.H.H. It says in verse 8: "I have set before thee an opened door, which no one can shut, because thou hast ..." certain things. Would they be practical features, which would prevent us from merely thinking of this as an abstract picture?

J.T. He is speaking of certain features of the assembly which were true at Philadelphia. It is therefore just one phase of the assembly just as each

assembly is a phase, beginning with Ephesus.

F.J.F. Is not what is in the Lord's mind in our minds when we put the loaf on the table on the Lord's day?

J.T. I would think it is. As the Lord comes in, after we begin the service, I would think He would have in mind what we are dealing with here; He would have nothing less in mind than that. Therefore the service of God enters into the present time peculiarly. That is to say, we are in the time of a revival, and a revival marked by the Lord's supper, which is the great feature of the beginning of the service of God. We have the service of God restored to us.

M.B. Does the "key of David" refer to, or link with, the full thought of the service of God in the assembly?

J.T. The word 'key' would imply the administration of the truth of the assembly, and the service of God in the assembly, and all that is opened up to us according to this phase of the assembly.

A.N.W. Does the whole thought come still more clearly into view in the statement. "They shall come and shall do homage before thy feet"? That could hardly be local, could it?

J.T. The 'thy' there is clearly the assembly itself. So that the Lord is making promises, because the enemy, Satan, is in mind here. The Lord is going to challenge him and rebuff him, and oust him, as it were. The Lord is taking up the combat in this letter.

W.C. Does that remark as to doing homage imply the presence of a divine Person there, the assembly being a creature?

J.T. The homage is to the assembly at Philadelphia, not to Christ, "Behold, I make them of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews, and are not, but lie; behold, I will cause that they

shall come and shall do homage before thy feet, and shall know that I have loved thee". It is the assembly that is in mind. The Lord intends to cause the enemies to come and worship before Philadelphia's feet. That is to say, it is the remarkable distinction that the Lord makes as to Philadelphia. It is not a divine Person, of course, it is not other than a creature, but, at the same time, the Lord is pleased to use this language and we may well let Him use it.

Ques. Is it not similar to what we get in John 17? "I in them and thou in me, that they may be perfected into one and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and that thou hast loved them as thou hast loved me". Is not the language there similar?

J.T. Very similar; but here the word 'worship' is used, which is very remarkable.

L.E.S. Would this be somewhat like the passage in Zechariah, where Satan is seen standing at the right hand of the Angel, and it says, "And Jehovah said unto Satan, Jehovah rebuke thee, O Satan! Yea, Jehovah that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee!" Zechariah 3:2?

J.T. Very good, "Jehovah that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee!" Jehovah will do that. And now the Lord Jesus here, in writing to Philadelphia, is saying things about Philadelphia that are similar to that, but it is a remarkable thing that He says, "Do homage before thy feet". That is, the feet of this phase of the assembly, namely Philadelphia.

W.C. In chapter 19, John is rebuked by the angel for doing homage to him, which makes it all the more remarkable here. According to the note, the word is apparently the same.

J.T. It is the more remarkable. John is rebuked twice for falling down to the angel, but the Lord is pleased to say this here, and should we not give Him the liberty to do so? It is a remarkable thing.

Ques. Does it imply that the Holy Spirit is in Philadelphia, in that way?

J.T. Well, of course, if it is viewed in this light it certainly would imply that the Holy Spirit is there, and, of course, He is there. The Lord is speaking to a phase of the assembly, and the Holy Spirit is in the assembly. It is a feature of this dispensation that the Holy Spirit is in the assembly.

A.J.G. Is your point that the homage is not to the Holy Spirit, but to the assembly?

J.T. That is what I see. The Lord says, "I make them of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews, and are not, but lie; behold, I will cause that they shall come and shall do homage before thy feet, and shall know that I have loved thee". That is plain enough.

Ques. Will that come into evidence while the assembly is here on earth?

J.T. Well, if you want a concrete evidence of it, of course, one is not prepared to say that. I am seeking to insist on what the Lord says, for we are to pay attention to it. Whatever it may mean, we are to pay attention to it. The Lord says it.

H.W. Would you connect it in any way with the closing words of Ephesians 1. "The assembly, which is his body, the fulness of him who fills all in all"?

J.T. That is very like it. That is another thing to be observed, that Paul refers to the assembly, as "the fulness of him who fills all in all". That is to say, she is viewed as having part in the headship, which He is exercising. She is not viewed there by herself as the assembly, but she is a feature of the headship. The Lord is Head, of course, but she has part in the headship, which is a remarkable thing.

Ques. Is the homage contingent on what is said in verse 8, and does that go back, perhaps to the beginning of the Acts? In Acts 4:7 it says, "In what power or in what name have ye done this? Then

Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them". Here in this passage we have "a little power" and the keeping of His word, and the not denying His name.

J.T. Now you are coming to another thing. You are not questioning the matter of homage, you are coming to the things that the Lord approves in Philadelphia, which, of course, we must observe, but then what we are dealing with first of all is this question of homage. The Lord says of Philadelphia, "I make them of the synagogue of Satan ... that they shall come and shall do homage before thy feet, and shall know that I have loved thee". That is stated by the Lord, and I think we ought to keep that clear, and then try to understand what He means. All we can say is that He says it, and, of course, we must accept that it is His word and it means what it says. We are not to make it concrete. To make it concrete is another matter, which I am not prepared to do, because we have no concrete evidence that the Lord is making anything or any person to worship before the feet of the assembly. But there it is, and we may well leave it and wait on the Lord to give us light about it, if we have not the light.

C.M.M. When Nebuchadnezzar fell on his face and worshipped Daniel, was that right?

J.T. Well, I would prefer now to have the passage from Daniel read, so that we can see the meaning of it.

A.J.G. It is in chapter 2, after Daniel had interpreted the dream of the great image, he says (verse 45), "Forasmuch as thou sawest that a stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold-the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter. And the

dream is certain, and the interpretation of it sure. Then king Nebuchadnezzar fell on his face and worshipped Daniel, and commanded that they should offer an oblation and sweet odours unto him. The king answered Daniel and said, Of a truth it is that your God is the God of gods, and the Lord of kings, and a revealer of secrets, because thou wast able to reveal this secret".

J.T. There is nothing said as to any question about it. What Nebuchadnezzar did is accepted by Daniel, and that is the fact, I would say. Well, we might leave it there. There is no question about it. But when we come to this book, the prophet John falls down to worship the person who spoke to him, and he is rebuked twice for doing it. It is clear enough therefore that the idea of worship is not attributed to a creature. The angel says, "Worship God". That is the full truth that comes out in regard of anyone attempting to worship a creature.

A.J.G. If the Lord makes the enemies bow down and do homage before the assembly, no one can question it.

J.T. Just so. That is just what I am thinking, I am trying to stress that the Lord has a right to do these things, and we must allow Him that right, and understand, if we can, what He means by it. We may be sure that He is not encouraging idolatry, far from it. At the same time He is surely honouring the assembly in a peculiar way, and we might accept that.

Ques. Is not the expression used in Scripture- for the movement of an inferior towards a superior person? It is referred to in worshipping the king, for example. It has not necessarily a religious significance.

J.T. That is, you would make it a question of language or custom, but the Lord is saying more than that here.

Eu.R. In the Old Testament it says they worshipped Jehovah and the king. The king would represent the rights of Jehovah, would he not?

J.T. He would.

Eu.R. And may there not be some representation of Christ in the assembly when this is done?

J.T. It is just a question for us to consider, I think Mr. Darby makes a strong remark, if I remember rightly, dealing with the word 'worship', but nevertheless what we are speaking of is important and should be left as it stands. The Lord has used these words and He has a meaning in it, and it is clearly to distinguish peculiarly the assembly at Philadelphia.

R.W. Is that supported in that it is said of Philadelphia that she has a crown?

J.T. Well, of course, that is not very much. We are made kings and priests ourselves, according to Revelation 5.

A.A-n. Is it because there is what is in affinity with Himself as "the holy, the true" in Philadelphia?

J.T. There is that, clearly, and ought to be, and always is in the assembly really, and in every one of us, that we are holy and true, but the Lord is saying more than that. He is saying, "I will cause that they shall come and shall do homage before thy feet". And what is it for? That they may "know that I have loved thee". Therefore we might perhaps enlarge on the thought that the Lord is enlarging on, namely, the thought of His love for the assembly.

J.C-S. It is not that the assembly invites worship but the Lord causes it.

J.T. Just so. It is to distinguish the assembly at Philadelphia peculiarly, and I think we might as well accept that and proceed with what we have further. It says in verse 10: "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee out of the hour of trial, which is about to come

upon the whole habitable world, to try them that dwell upon the earth". Now we have a question of the patience that is apparently marking Philadelphia. It is a time of patience, and apparently it is there; and there is a promise attached to it, as it says: "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee out of the hour of trial, which is about to come upon the whole habitable world, to try them that dwell upon the earth". I would think the Lord means that He is going to save those who are true to Him as in Philadelphia from the awful trial that is coming upon the whole earth. I suppose communism is involved in it, and the great apostasy that is imminent is involved in the promise that the Lord makes. It seems to me it should be a great comfort to every one of us that we are going to be kept out of it. It is not simply that we are going to be taken to heaven, but we are going to be kept out of it, and I suppose that will synchronise with the rapture. We are going to be kept out of the great tribulation that shall come upon all the world, "to try them that dwell upon the earth".

Eu.R. Would you include every believer that is on earth at that time in the "thee" in that verse? "I also will keep thee".

J.T. It refers to those that are in Philadelphia, and that would mean the state we are in now, that God has brought about through the revival. He has brought certain of us into a state of holiness and truth with the Lord Himself. He speaks of "a little power", showing that it is still, in a sense, a remnant, but it is there, and it has a little power, and then there is the patience; and then the keeping of 'thee' out of the tribulation that is to come upon all the world to try those that dwell upon the earth. I should not say it goes beyond the true ones; that is, those who belong to Philadelphia.

Eu.R. You said it synchronised with our being raptured.

J.T. I believe it will, but I do not think the promise is made specially to those who are not walking in the truth. The Lord has stressed that it is to those who are walking in the truth.

A.J.G. Is it not a promise made to those who keep the word of His patience? Would you mind saying what is involved in the expression "the word of my patience"?

J.T. What patience the Lord has! I believe He includes in His own mind the thought of what God is, indeed in His patience regarding the whole race. He is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance, and it is the time of that, and we do well to think of it and have it in our hearts in the Lord's day evening preachings, so as to be in accord with the spirit of Philadelphia.

A.J.G. Does it mean that the Lord Himself is patient and that we are to be patient? And that throughout the period of patience the Lord will sustain the saints with His word?

J.T. Quite so. Very good.

L.E.S. In the word in James, which is a reference to this, it says. 'The man who is patient, though under great trials, bears up, and does not lose heart or courage' (See footnote to James 5:7).

J.T. That passage in James refers to having patience, for the coming of the Lord draws nigh. It is a time of patience, and why should we not participate in it? I believe we may well introduce it in connection with our little meetings for the gospel services on Lord's day evenings. The gospel is continued in our little meetings; there is a little power, no doubt, and it is honoured, and perhaps an occasional convert, but it does not go much beyond that.

E.C.M. God "desires that all men should be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth".

J.T. Quite so. It seems to me that God is greatly pleased with what is being done in this little homely way amongst the brethren, in the small gatherings throughout the world. They kneel down in their homes to pray for the gospel, and they bring in terms that imply the gospel, I am sure God is pleased with that, and I believe it enters into what the Lord says here.

R.W.S. I think we are being helped to see that all things have not the same value, and that we are really in a realm of refinement, so that there is something special here. We may be inclined to think in a common way, and not specialise.

J.T. I think that is very good. There are specialities, and I believe Philadelphia is a speciality with the Lord Jesus. Then this matter of the gospel should be continued urgently, so that the truth is kept before men in our little meetings for the preaching.

Ques. Does the word in Thessalonians come in there. "The Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patience of the Christ"?

J.T. I think it does fully.

H.W. Does not the closing of the dispensation call for greater public activity perhaps in a gospel way?

J.T. I had thought of that. I attempted to say something to my brethren in New Zealand and Australia when I was down there, as to going out with the gospel, and preaching in the open air, and they are doing it, as far as I can hear. It was the way the gospel began first, according to what we get in the book of Acts. We cannot conceive that Peter could have preached to three thousand people otherwise than in the open air.

F.J.F. Mr. Darby has a very important letter on the subject. He says it would be a sad day if we did not go out in the gospel, I think it is in his first volume of letters.

Rem. It needs a lot of faith when nobody stands to listen.

J.T. That is true; but some do. It is well worth continuing, therefore.

J.G.H. Paul's word to Timothy is "preach the word".

J.T. Well, that is what the brethren are doing now. They have changed the wording of the sign boards to indicate that "the word" is preached, I think it is a wise choice, a wise correction. Of course, it is right to say, preach the gospel too, but preaching the word is more in keeping with a "day of small things".

A.R. You spoke of prayer for the gospel; do you think that in our prayers we should extend outside the circle in which we move, and pray for the gospel universally, where it is preached?

J.T. I should think so, whoever may be preaching. We are thankful for the preaching, whoever preaches and our prayers should cover them too.

Ques. Do you think the preaching of judgment should enter into the preaching at the present time, or not?

J.T. Well, it is always preached. Paul preached judgment, and judgment should accompany it. It is only a matter of warning and we should not be ignorant or silent about judgment. We surely should not let people die in their sins without telling them the danger.

Rem. Paul says, "Warning every man and teaching every man".

J.T. Quite so. But now we should come down to verse 12. "He that overcomes, him will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no

more at all out; and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven, from my God, and my new name". These are precious thoughts and they belong to Philadelphia. They imply that Philadelphia, at least those who have part in it, is coming in for great things; the Lord is using the word "My" so much.

E.C.M. Is the thought of "My God" the same as in John 20, where the Lord says to Mary, "I ascend to my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God"?

J.T. Well, "the name of my God"; these are the Lord's own words, and He would speak of the thing from His own standpoint. It is not a question of the privilege that belongs to the saints, as in the message that He sent through Mary; here it is from His own point of view that He is speaking, "The name of my God", and that name involves much, I would say that it is somewhat different from what we find in John 20. In John 20 the message is that "I ascend to my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God". Well, that is the question of christian privilege and glory, but here it is the "name of my God" by itself, and therefore I would distinguish it. The Lord Jesus refers to the name by itself; so that the two things are not the same.

J.C-S. Is this exclusive to Him?

J.T. It is exclusive to Him. That is what I would say, but in John 20 it is linked up with ourselves as well.

A.J.G. Does it indicate great feeling in the heart of Christ, in thus speaking?

J.T. I think it does, and it really works out to what belongs to the present time, the idea of the name of God. The Lord is saying, "the name of my God"; note the word 'name'.

C.M.M. Would it be linked with the baptismal formula?

J.T. I think the name there is God as God, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. There is only one name there, implying the Deity, as we might say. It is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, so that one name would apply to Them all.

H.H. We ought not then to say 'the name of the Father, and the name of the Son and the name of the Spirit', but one name comprising the three Persons of the Godhead.

J.T. Quite so. It is presented in that way, "baptising them to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit"-the and is there in each case. So that the thing is presented in that way; it is the one name but presented as affecting, or applying to, the three Persons severally.

P.H.H. What is the force of the expression, "the temple of my God", here? The word used is naos, which we understand to be the shrine itself.

J.T. I suppose the allusion would be to 1 Corinthians 3, where it is said that the Corinthians were the temple of God, but then this is "the temple of my God".

P.H.H. Is it a peculiarly blessed thought that Christ's God shines upon the saints, upon the overcomer?

J.T. Well, there is such a thing as that. Whether we understand it, whether we apply it in a practical sense, the saints are said to be the temple of God, "Do ye not know that ye are the temple of God?". It is based upon the presence of the Spirit, for "the Spirit of God dwells in you". It is a question therefore, in that sense, of the Spirit of God being there with the Corinthians, and therefore the shrine was there. It is that in connection with which God is worshipped, but it is really largely because of the

truth that is ministered, and the truth that was coming out there at Corinth.

Ques. Could the word to the overcomer that "he shall go no more at all out" be opened out a little?

J.T. It is a comfort to those who are serving, travelling throughout the different parts of the world, in all climates and at all times, that that will be over for ever. "He shall go no more at all out". It is a promise to us, and it belongs to the overcomer in Philadelphia, that he does not go any more out. Every one of us here, we might say, goes out in our service, sometimes in all kinds of weathers and with all kinds of difficulties, but all that will be over.

P.H.H. As to the temple; did you say it involved the truth coming out?

J.T. I think so, and the ministry where Paul says. "I have planted; Apollos watered; but God has given the increase". It is a question of the truth, I believe. The apostle is speaking of the truth that was coming out at Corinth. Corinth was the temple really; the assembly was the temple.

A.J.G. And the overcomer becomes prominent in that?

J.T. Quite so.

Eu.R. You get increase connected with the temple in Ephesians 2. It says, "in whom all the building fitted together increases to a holy temple in the Lord".

J.T. The allusion there would be to what is coming out in the millennium; what the assembly is to be in the millennium. It "increases to a holy temple in the Lord".

Eu.R. Does Philadelphia refer to that?

J.T. Well, of course, that is the truth, and we are dealing with the truth in Philadelphia too, and with the idea of the temple.

A.J.G. May I ask whether the promise to the overcomer in Philadelphia is entirely future in its bearing, or is there any sense in which it may have present application?

J.T. I think it would allude to the millennium. The millennium is alluded to several times in the addresses to the assemblies, and in the promises made in the letters, as, for instance, in what the overcomer in Thyatira comes into.

Ques. Is not the term 'new Jerusalem' connected with the eternal idea?

J.T. It is; but you can say more about that, please.

Rem. I wondered if these statements suggest the mediatorial service of the Lord Jesus in the glorious position in which He places us, "Will I make", "I will write". Does it lead on to finality?

J.T. Well, let us read it again, "He that overcomes, him will I make a pillar". The word pillar is to be noted there. It is a pillar in the temple. That is to say, the temple is alluded to as a building. That is the first thing, and it is "the temple of my God". Then it says, "he shall go no more at all out; and I will write upon him the name of my God". That is the first thing to be written: "the name of my God". Then the second is "the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem". That name is written upon the overcomer in Philadelphia. Well, what would that be except that the idea of new Jerusalem has come to be known? The holy city, which is a millennial thought, has come to be known, and then finally "the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven, from my God". Then we have "my new name". These are all promises to distinguish the overcomer in Philadelphia.

L.E.S. Would the thought of 'my God' enable us to understand the Lord's reference to Psalm 22, where He begins: "My God, my God, why hast

thou forsaken me? why art thou far from my salvation, from the words of my groaning? My God, I cry by day, and thou answerest not"?

J.T. That is what the Lord says in the hour of His sorrow, but I think this is more a time of joy. That is to say, the Lord Jesus is speaking of His God, not as the One who forsook Him, but as the God whom He knew and was enjoying. "My God" in Psalm 22 would, of course, point to the Lord's death and the forsaking, but then He had a God and He alludes to One who is His God, here; He wants to bring the Philadelphian overcomers into what He Himself had. He is going to link it on with the overcomer in Philadelphia and He is going to write it upon him.

D.J.M. Has the overcomer stood for these things at the present time?

J.T. Exactly. Any brother who is here today ought to be able to say, 'Well, I am going on with that; I am going on with Christ's God'. The Lord will honour him because he is an overcomer. The Lord is just pointing to what is true of him. That is really what is meant in the things that He promises here, because these things are true of Philadelphia, and the Lord knows that they are true, and He is enjoying the fact that they are true, and He is speaking to us today because they are true. He appreciates us all the more because they are true and that we belong to Philadelphia, not that we are saying that we belong to Philadelphia, but the Lord is saying it, and He is writing upon us because of this.

S.McC. Does the expression "my God" in this passage here refer to the fullest and greatest way in which God may be known?

J.T. Well, I suppose so. We might link up John 20 with it, "My God and your God", but the Lord here is speaking by Himself.

P.H.H. What is the force of "my new name"?

J.T. It must apply to something that the saints at Philadelphia had come to know as new. It is not something old such as the denominations have, referring back to old things; but we have come into new things and we are enjoying new things. The Lord Himself presents what is new.

J.C-S. Do you think it might stress the idea of how the truth of His Person has been unfolded in recent years?

J.T. Very good. It is what is new, not what is old and about to be discarded. That is what is in mind in the epistle to the Hebrews, that there is something about to be discarded, but what we are going on with is not about to be discarded; it is a new thing. It belongs to what is new, and it is eternal, really. I was noticing last night, as we left these buildings, there was hardly anyone in sight that was not in fellowship. Well, I think that was something. God has effected that in our day, and therefore we are going on with something that the world does not know of at all. They do not know what we are going on with. If they looked in here now they would not know what we are speaking about; but we know, and we are enjoying it. It is a new and blessed thing that will go on for ever.

J.T.Jr. Is it the idea of God and man? Is that the idea here? The Lord is speaking here to us as Man in relation to God, and that we are now brought into relation with God as men.

J.T. Just so. The Lord says, in John 17"The men whom thou gavest me". These are the men, and we, through grace, belong to them.

Well now, we shall just have to look at Laodicea for a few moments, and get a few thoughts that we can carry away with us as to it, and the attitude of the Lord toward it, particularly the way He is presented as "the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God". That is to

say, the Lord presents Himself to Laodicea, not as the new creation or in connection with the new creation, but "the beginning of the creation of God". We have the idea of creation, and therefore our minds are directed back to the first of Genesis, where God has to do with the creation. That is the God we have to do with too. He is the God of creation; but then Christ is the beginning of that. He is the beginning of it. That is to say, He is before it; He begins it. What is presented to us in Genesis 1 begins in Christ; He is the beginning of it, and, of course, that directs us back to much, because the actual world that we are dealing with was created before man, much before man. Angels were created before men. We have therefore to think of the Lord Jesus as the beginning of all that. What a place it gives Him! What a place it should give Him in our minds, as seen in this address to Laodicea!

Ques. What is the import of the "Amen" coming before the thought of the beginning?

J.T. The "Amen" is mentioned at the beginning of the book and it is a suggestion of finality. It is final. Whatever is in mind, the Lord is that; He must finish up everything, it is like the Alpha and Omega.

S.B. Would it be right to say that this beginning of the creation of God was in His mind in the way in which He speaks to Job: "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth?"

J.T. Well, quite. We have to go back in our minds and think of what God had. He had been operating long before man; He had been operating when "the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy". He was there then. So that it enlarges our minds, and leads us to think that it is not simply Genesis 1, but it is what was before that. So that whatever was before that, the Lord is speaking of it.

Rem. So that in Colossians it is said, "He is before all, and all things subsist together by him".

J.T. A very good application there.

Ques. Would that link on with what we have in Colossians, "who is image of the invisible God, firstborn of all creation"?

J.T. You have the Firstborn there, but here He is the Beginning. Each time it is the beginning, not the firstborn, but the beginning. It is a cognate thought, of course, whether it is the firstborn or the beginning.

P.H.H. What is the force of the Lord referring thus to Himself in addressing Laodicea?

J.T. I think it is to impress us with what He is. He is "the Amen". He is the finish of everything, but He is "the beginning of the creation of God", no matter how far back your mind travels, you cannot get to this, but He is there. In John l, it is: "In the beginning was the Word"; but here it is "the beginning of the creation of God". We cannot just say what the beginning in John 1 was. "In the beginning was the Word", but here it is "the beginning of the creation of God". The Lord is that. Whatever it was, He is it. So that the mind is directed to something in that sense, as to the glory of Christ.

P.L. Is it an answer to the heartlessness of Laodicea, involving in our day such attacks upon Christ? Does this silence all? I was thinking of the heartlessness in the profession today in regard of the Person of Christ.

J.T. Well, and, too, the much that is made of science and what science has found out in the work of creation. The scientific man makes so much of it, but the Lord Jesus says: 'I am the beginning of it'. They may say it is millions of years and you marvel how they spin it out in terms of millions! Well, the Lord says, 'I am the beginning of that'.

That is what He says here. No matter how far back you go, He is the beginning of it.

Ques. Would that dismiss from the minds of the saints all these evolutionary thoughts that man has taken on?

J.T. Just so. The idea of evolution would do away with all this. Men of science would not admit that the Lord Jesus was the beginning of it. They would make out that it was some scientific thing.

Ques. Is the presentation of the Lord's glory in this way calculated to stir us up out of any lukewarmness?

J.T. Very good.

A.J.G. Does it add peculiar lustre to His readiness to stand at the door and knock?

J.T. Very beautiful. That is one thing I thought we ought not to pass over. It is as if the Lord is standing and knocking at the door of everybody, especially christendom. "If any one hear my voice and open the door", He says, "I will come in unto him and sup with him, and he with me". We are reminded of Peter, what the Lord said to him, when He washed his feet: "Unless I wash thee, thou hast not part with me". Here the Lord is proposing to have part with anyone that opens to Him, and that he should have part with Him.

THE MEDIATORIAL SERVICE OF CHRIST AND THE HOLY SPIRIT (5)

Revelation 19:1 - 9; Revelation 21:1 - 8

J.T. The beginning of chapter 19, to the end of verse 5, was read because it gives the background to all that follows; that is to say, the assembly viewed as the wife of Christ and the bride of Christ. The suggestion now is that the sections read convey to us the truth as to the assembly, first in the ending of its responsible life here, culminating in its place as the bride of Christ, and then leading on to the passage in chapter 21, which involves the completion of everything, leading into eternity. Whilst undoubtedly these two passages involve the rapture, as we call it, yet there is the idea of responsibility entering into chapter 19 particularly; and then there is what we may call an appendix to bring out more fully the idea of the assembly in its administrative capacity in the millennium. So it was morally right that the history intervening between the addresses to the assemblies and this section should come into view, so that we now, as still living here in responsibility, should not overlook what the completion is to be, but prepare for it. The idea of preparation is strong in the passage in chapter 19, "his wife has made herself ready", and then when she is seen later as "a bride adorned for her husband".

Ques. Would that stress the necessity for understanding the eternal place of the assembly before the administration of the millennium?

J.T. Well, I think the eternal place really comes in before we have the millennial facts. It is a question of spiritual understanding as to what has yet to be done, because all must come into change, for flesh and blood does not inherit the kingdom of God. So that the Lord will help us doubtless to think on these things and to see how what we now have part in

down here culminates in the eternal state in which each of us will be and in which the assembly will be.

P.H.H. May I ask if you make a distinction between "his wife", in chapter 19 and "the bride", or "as a bride", in chapter 21?

J.T. Well, the early verses of chapter 21 contemplate almost what is figurative, because of the "as". John says, "I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea exists no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of the heaven from God, prepared as a bride". The preparation and what works out in it: "as a bride", there, is a strong figurative presentation of the assembly. But when we come to verse 9 of chapter 21, it is said, "And there came one of the seven angels which had had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues, and spoke with me, saying, Come here, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife". So in this chapter we have come to the beginning of what we may call the eternal state, but still the administrative side that she is to occupy, and therefore the description that we have in the whole of chapter 21. In the meantime what is in mind is to get the idea of chapter 19 and how she is seen there. First we have the great jubilation over the overthrow of Babylon, and then in verses 6 and 7, "I heard as a voice of a great crowd, and as a voice of many waters, and as a voice of strong thunders, saying, Hallelujah, for the Lord our God the Almighty has taken to himself kingly power. Let us rejoice and exult, and give him glory; for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife has made herself ready". Then we are told what is given to her; so that we have presented to us in the passage almost the end of the responsible period and the beginning of the eternal conditions.

L.E.S. Would Psalm 150 have any bearing on this, as to the word 'Hallelujah'? "Hallelujah! Praise