Pages 1 - 98 -- "Readings on First Thessalonians", Rochester, U.S.A., 1950 (Volume 181 - Old Series).
1 Thessalonians 1:1 - 10
J.T. The first epistle to the Thessalonians is suggested because there are a great many young people among the brethren, relatively, in this country, and the epistles to the Thessalonians peculiarly apply to youth, to the young among the saints, to the young that existed in Paul's time and, we may thank God, in our time. There is quite an increase among the young, and especially among the young men that are available for service, for preaching; so the first epistle to the Thessalonians is selected because it contains such an appeal to youth, to young assemblies too, and to the youth among them. In fact it may be said that they are Paul's first epistles, and undoubtedly he had in mind the freshness that existed among the saints of God in his time and that they might be set on their way rightly. So we shall observe that he speaks of imitation. It says in verse 6, "and ye became our imitators, and of the Lord, having accepted the word in much tribulation with joy of the Holy Spirit, so that ye became models to all that believe in Macedonia and in Achaia: for the word of the Lord sounded out from you, not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but in every place your faith which is towards God has gone abroad, so that we have no need to say anything; for they themselves relate concerning us what entering in we had to you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve a living and true God, and to await his Son from the heavens, whom he raised from among the dead, Jesus, our deliverer from the coming wrath". So there is great stress laid on the idea of imitation, imitation of
others who have been long in the way and have known the truth, and ministered it, too. So the point is for the younger ones to think of what is needed and see how it is to be learned from those long in the way, from the elder brethren.
R.W.S. So we have the opening and laying down at Thessalonica in Acts 17. Would that not bear on all who are young? We have examples in the elders, but the tendency in this country to which you alluded would be met by the opening up and laying down of the truth, would it not?
J.T. Quite so. The opening up is the ministry that would bring out the truth, and the laying down is the authority that accompanies it, which is always needed. Opening up is one thing and laying down is another, and that implies the authority that goes with the truth.
C.H.H. Would the term "to the assembly of Thessalonians in God the Father" be a term of affection?
J.T. Yes, implying the security of the position. How well they would be taken care of. It does not say that in Romans, or Ephesians, but it says it here. "in God the Father", it is a peculiar expression for an assembly.
L.E.S. Would the laying down be in accord with the Holy Scriptures? They would be the basis for all that is said.
J.T. Just so. The Scriptures are the only authority that we have, so that we have sure ground to stress authority. "Every scripture is divinely inspired, and profitable", 2 Timothy 3:16. It is not only that it is authoritative but it is profitable, that is to say, as we look into the Scriptures we see there is nothing else to compare with them. The young people need to get that into their minds and hearts, and that they are profitable. It would keep them from reading other things that are unprofitable and defiling.
C.M. Would the fact that Paul identifies Timothy with him here in this first verse indicate something as to what you are saying as to the young coming into the truth and being usable in it?
J.T. He was a comparatively young man himself. He had learned the truth from his mother and grandmother, which is a good source for young people to learn from, their godly mothers and grandmothers in the houses. It is a question of household influence and authority.
A.R. It says in Acts 17 they "joined themselves to Paul and Silas". Would that suggest the idea of a good lead and young people linking themselves on with the elder brethren?
Ques. Would you preach from the New Translation (Darby Translation) of the Scriptures, or the King James version on Lord's day evening in preaching the gospel?
J.T. That is an important question. As far as I am concerned, whenever I try to minister the word, whatever it may be, I use the New Translation (Darby Translation) now, because it is accurate, and many of us are inaccurate and are apt to be misled by inaccurate statements.
Rem. In Acts 8 we have a verse in the King James version which is not genuine, and some have thought that as it is there it is all right to preach from it, which I would not do.
J.T. I think that is worth while considering. At one time it was felt that it might appear that we had a Bible assumed to be our own, and that it took on the character of sectional feeling, whereas now the New Translation (Darby Translation) is so well known that we are perfectly safe in using it.
J.T. I do. I would have no difficulty about it now, because it is so well known, and where the preaching goes on, as a rule the brethren are all there, a large number of them relatively anyway.
The question, therefore, is whether we read the Bible enough, especially sisters, whether we read the New Translation (Darby Translation) and get the accurate translation that it contains.
F.J.F. Mr. Darby said of Mr. Raven to watch that young man for his mind is formed by Scripture.
J.T. Just so. I would extend that to the sisters. They should read at home and privately and incessantly themselves, not only wait for the household reading but read themselves. "From a child thou hast known the sacred letters".
Rem. You suggested the other night that we should read our chapters five times and Mr. Darby's Synopsis once.
Rem. I thought it would confirm the importance of getting things from the Scriptures.
R.W.S. In all our meetings then, including the preaching of the word of God, we are quite right to use the New Translation (Darby Translation). Is that what I understand?
J.T. I think so. Why not use the best? The notes, too, in the New Translation (Darby Translation) are very copious and useful and we all should read them if we can, read the notes and commentaries on the text.
R.W.S. Then our Bibles in the meeting rooms should be the New Translation (Darby Translation) instead of the Authorised version.
A.J.G. Should not the brethren bring their own Bibles?
R.W.S. I mean the Bibles for strangers who come into the rooms. They should be the New Translation (Darby Translation). We have a good many Authorised Translations in our meeting rooms.
W.W.M. Is it not important for every brother and sister to have a New Translation (Darby Translation) and read it? It should be laid on our consciences.
J.T. Just so and read the notes as well as the text.
W.W.M. It should be an exercise that those who do not own one should have one.
F.J.F. In Oxford University they use Mr. Darby's translation as the best French as a model to learn from. It ought to be no difficulty for us who love the truth to have it in our homes and in our meetings. No doubt the Romish authorities are aware of the ministry that is published by us.
J.T. I quite believe that. Someone was sitting by a priest who was reading one of our books and the brother nearby to him made an inquiry about it. He said 'we get all the books that are published'. So it shows that if we circulate books they ought to be authoritative.
Ques. Would Luke 1 help us to be attending on the word and accurately acquainted with it?
J.T. Quite so. Of course, we try to get accuracy in these meetings. We attempt to be accurate and if any brother gives out anything that is not quite accurate, the thing is to question him and point out what is accurate.
Ques. You mean if I were to say something that is not quite accurate now, you would check me now?
J.T. Just so, and whatever you say elsewhere too, I question that if I hear about it. Every brother should be ready and open to be questioned, because there is so much current among the brethren in different parts of the world that it is right that everything should be accurate. What is said and done should be accurate. In some places we get special customs, whereas our customs should all be accurate and agree with each other.
F.J.F. A priest spoke to me the other day in this country when I was speaking to a man in the hospital. I said, 'Salvation is found only in Jesus', and the priest said, 'Yes, it is found in Jesus and His church'. The priest is right, that salvation is not only in the Lord, but in its present aspect it is in the church.
J.T. Just so. Mr. Raven stressed that very particularly, and God used it and has used it ever since, that salvation is not only in Christ but in the assembly. Why should it not be? If the assembly is Christ's spouse, she should know everything as taught of Him. These special meetings now are of first rate importance. God has greatly blessed them in this country for the last fifty years. These meetings are little, relatively, but God is blessing them and the thing is that we should agree with each other. That is to say, we should be catholic; the word would mean that it is universal and we are in agreement with each other.
A.J.G. Would you say something as to the three things mentioned in verse 5? "For our glad tidings were not with you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit, and in much assurance".
J.T. "Our glad tidings", that is Paul's. Then again we have corresponding to that, "knowing of whom thou hast learned them", 2 Timothy 3:14. We should know the persons who say things, that we can rely on what they are saying. So we have here, "For our glad tidings were not with you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit, and in much assurance". That is to say, the thing is manifest that it is in the power of God. It is not simply that it is accurate, it is from the Scriptures, but it is in power. Evidence should be there that it is in power.
A.J.G. Would the power be connected with the fact of the ministers themselves being in accord with
the glad tidings, so that the Holy Spirit could identify His power with them?
J.T. Quite so. "Knowing of whom thou hast learned them". So it pleases God if He takes up any whom He would use, to see to it that they arc instructed according to the Scriptures, otherwise we have local customs and local ideas. In our country people say, 'Well, we say so and so', but it should be accurate or it should not be said. We should have the Scriptures behind us or we should not say anything.
W.J.B. The Spirit of truth would bear on this question of accuracy, would it?
J.T. Quite so, not only the letter of truth but the spirit of it. The word spirit has a peculiar meaning in that sense and it ought to be understood, the spirit of a thing, not the spirit of a person.
F.K.C. Is that why the Lord says in John 7:38 "He that believes on me, as the scripture has said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water"? It was the Spirit of truth the Lord was bringing forward.
J.T. Quite so. "He that believes on me, as the scripture has said". It is what the scriptures say, not only what the letter is; it is what they say. Then "out of his belly" means his inwards. It is not simply external, what is said with his mouth, but his inwards.
Rem. In 2 Corinthians 4 Paul, speaking about his ministry, says, "We have rejected the hidden things of shame, not walking in deceit, nor falsifying the word of God, but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every conscience of men before God. But if also our gospel is veiled it is veiled in those that are lost". Would that support what you have in mind as to the importance of the truth? Is the idea of the Spirit of truth involved in this?
J.T. I would say that. The Corinthian epistle contains more questioning than any other epistle because Paul himself was questioned there. It is a humbling thing when the brother who is ministering the truth is questionable, but it is still more humbling if he is questioned unwarrantably. In Philippians Paul says that some were preaching out of contention, evidently having something against Paul. It is very humbling that there should be a tendency to question the brethren who are ministering the truth, whereas if they are ministering the truth, the truth ought to commend them.
W.J.B. When Paul said, "If any one thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him recognise the things that I write to you, that it is the Lord's commandment" (1 Corinthians 14:37), did he mean that they were to discern the authoritative element in his ministry?
J.T. It is not only that Paul was accurate, but it is the Lord's commandment, and that is what he was stressing. Let him recognise that the things we minister are the truth, he says, the Lord's commandment. If the Lord has spoken, there is no more to be said, but to bow to it.
Rear. The Lord Jesus says in John 8:40, "Now ye seek to kill me, a man who has spoken the truth to you, which I have heard from God". Then Paul says in Galatians 4:16, "So I have become your enemy in speaking the truth to you?" It is a serious matter if a brother who seeks to minister the truth is set aside on account of personal feeling.
J.T. Quite so, I go fully with that.
R.W.S. Is it not a favour of God that in this country, which is relatively new, you might say, the testimony has been sustained and, we might say, augmented so that there are models whom we can follow? There are persons whom we can imitate.
I wondered in that connection about how long the testimony has really been in this country.
J.T. Mr. Darby was one of the first to minister in this country. He ministered here very much and I would say he established the truth more than anyone else who ministered here.
R.W.S. I note in his letters he was here and in Canada, but then he went back to England. I was thinking of those who came here and stayed here and had children here, and meetings were established here, whether that does not go back to probably 1880, 1890 or 1900 so that young people now have an advantage which young persons did not have forty years ago.
A.B. In the reference to opening and laying down as in Thessalonica, you have us in mind; "in word ... in power ... in the Holy Spirit", the word is for ourselves and the Spirit of truth has a present bearing on us.
J.T. Just so. Most of us have come a distance and it has cost us something; it is well that it has cost us something because what costs us something is usually more valued. We are not on a holiday when we come to these meetings. We have come to learn something.
A.B. What has been said in regard to reading the New Translation should help us in relation to the spirit of the truth. While there is "the scripture of truth" (Daniel 10:21), there is the spirit of the truth which has its present bearing on us.
J.T. So that when brethren go back from a meeting like this, they ought to be able to carry what is said so that the truth is spread, and the truth carries its own weight.
G.A.T. In John 8:31, 32, discipleship is connected with knowing the truth.
J.T. Just so. Discipleship, as usually spoken of in Scripture, involves that we are learning the truth. So as we see with one man in the antediluvian world, the seventh from Adam; his name means devoted or disciplined. He carried the thing on and transferred it to others.
G.A.T. I just had in mind how it followed on. The Lord says, "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free", John 8:32.
J.T. Then again, "If therefore the Son shall set you free", (that is the Lord Jesus), "ye shall be really free" (verse 36).
F.H.L. In verse 3 the apostle credits these young believers with three great qualifications, each qualified by a phrase. Would you say a word about that? "Remembering unceasingly your work of faith, and labour of love, and enduring constancy of hope". There is a wonderful foundation in that.
J.T. It is a remarkable combination of thoughts, "remembering unceasingly your work of faith, and labour of love, and enduring constancy of hope". That ought to speak to us. I have often thought of it in looking through these two epistles, how these words are there. You have faith and hope and love, and there is this idea of constancy, "enduring constancy of hope". I believe perhaps the scarcest thing among the brethren is hope in the true sense. We are not hopeful and cheerful enough. We are too doleful, instead of being cheerful because of the greatness of the things we have come into; they are to come to pass immediately. The hope is immediate, we might say. For many reasons I think we are entitled to think and say that the coming of the Lord is near, and then there is another beautiful expression, the appearing; and there are those who love the appearing of the Lord. It inspires hope in our hearts. It is very near; it is imminent.
A.B. Is it confirmed at the end of verse 6, "having accepted the word in much tribulation with joy of the Holy Spirit"?
A.R. Bearing on your remark would you explain verse 10, "await his Son from the heavens". That is not the rapture, is it?
J.T. No, it is His Son from heaven. It is properly the second coming of the Lord, and these epistles are full of it. There is mention in every chapter in the first epistle of the Lord's coming. It is not simply He is coming for us but He is coming with us, I mean to say He comes openly, so that He is to be with us and we are to be with Him. "We shall be always with the Lord".
A.J.G. Why does it say "await his Son" and not await the Lord, for instance? Is there any link with the second Psalm where the Son is given the inheritance, "Ask of me, and I will give thee nations for an inheritance, and for thy possession the ends of the earth", Psalm 2:8? It is the Son who is given all things.
J.T. Just so. "Await his Son" is a beautiful expression. There is something about the idea of the Son that bears on the affections of the brethren, what the Son is. There is peculiar attractiveness in it. John's gospel is full of it. Christians are never called sons in John's gospel but the Lord Jesus is constantly called it. He is the Son.
A.R. Would that bear on John 3:35, "The Father loves the Son, and has given all things to be in his hand"?
J.T. We have cited that. "The Son"; it is that Person, and this passage here is very like it. "await his Son from the heavens, whom he raised from among the dead, Jesus, our deliverer from the coming wrath".
A.J.G. While the day of glory is about to open up, it is really a great system of affection that will be introduced then. Is that the thought?
J.T. That is what I would say. What a thought comes into the heart in connection with the Son; of course power goes with it too, but it is the Son, meaning the Son of the Father. He has that place in the whole universe; He is the Son, and every being in the universe, using the word 'universe' to convey the idea of what is general, will recognise that the Son is the Son, and there is no one to compare with Him.
A.J.G. "All may honour the Son, even as they honour the Father", John 5:23.
J.T. Just so. I am glad you said that.
J.H.E. Would that connect with 1 John 3. "See what love the Father has given to us, that we should be called the children of God"? Then it brings in the manifestation, "we shall see him as he is".
J.T. Quite so. "What we shall be has not yet been manifested; we know that if it is manifested we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is", 1 John 3:2. That does not appear yet, but we apprehend the love. "See what love the Father has given to us, that we should be called the children of God. For this reason the world knows us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we children of God" (verse 1). It is children we are dealing with, not sons. John hardly ever uses the word sons as referring to the saints, only in one place, but the point is that now we are children of God. It does not yet appear what we shall be, that will be sonship, but it does not mention that, save as saying "we shall be like him".
J.H.E. I thought that all our blessings are spiritual.
J.T. Quite so, we are the children of God now, that means that we derive from God, the idea of derivation, whereas sonship is dignity.
J.H.E. "And every one that has this hope in him purifies himself, even as he is pure", 1 John 3:3.
J.T. Quite so, that is the present application now, the children are to be pure.
R.W.S. Verse 10 of our chapter says, "and to await his Son from the heavens, whom he raised from among the dead, Jesus, our deliverer from the coming wrath". That Person is Jesus, not only "his Son from the heavens"; the personal name is designed to affect us inwardly, is it not?
J.T. Jesus, He is our deliverer from the coming wrath. The personal name is used, not Christ, but the personal name of the Lord.
F.J.F. So that it is very precious for the youngest believer who knows Jesus. He is the same blessed Person.
F.S.C. It says in chapter 5, verse 9, "God has not set us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ".
J.T. It is the whole name and title, "who has died for us, that whether we may be watching or sleep, we may live together with him", 1 Thessalonians 5:10. That is a very beautiful phrase.
D.P. Would the setting up of an assembly in a city become a test to a servant to bring in proper food so that steady growth might be maintained? The Thessalonians were planted in very difficult soil and it would require proper ministry so that they might not come under the power of what was current around.
J.T. Quite so. The food indicates who they are, that they are the assembly of Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore the importance of refusing such food as would impoverish. There is so much read by young people that impoverishes them. We want to get proper food, and these three-day meetings afford an opportunity for
developing a certain line of truth that may be especially used for the young people at the present time.
F.K.C. I would like to ask whether this idea of model should be seen with us? It says, "so that ye became models to all that believe in Macedonia and in Achaia". Paul said to Timothy, "be a model of the believers".
J.T. Surely if someone wished to look at the model we should be fully fitted for it, that we may justify the idea that is to be presented in us.
J.L.P. The saints at Thessalonica seem to have had a good foundation, among other things, in faith. Would you say if we have not a right foundation we will be weak in the testimony to others? It says that the word of the Lord sounded out from them.
J.T. So that it says in 2 Timothy 2, "Yet the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, The Lord knows those that are his; and, Let everyone who names the name of the Lord withdraw from iniquity".
C.H.H. Do you think that owing to the circumstances they were passing through there was a tendency to lose the constancy of hope, because it is not mentioned in the second epistle? Their faith and love was abounding but there is nothing about hope. Do you think there is a tendency among us to lose hope?
J.T. I think so. One has often noted that we give way on the line of hope; we are not marked by expectancy of the coming of the Lord; we do not love His appearing. It is not simply that we speak of the Lord's appearing, but we are to love it. He is to be seen when He appears.
G.H. In connection with the Lord's coming it says, "So encourage one another with these words", 1 Thessalonians 4:18. Would that be to promote hope?
J.T. I should think so. Encouraging one another would keep us from becoming droopy, because we so easily become droopy and disconsolate. So that we
are to be encouraged, not simply that the truth encourages, but the saints encourage each other.
W.W.M. The apostle says in Romans 15:13, "Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that ye should abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit".
J.T. Abound in it. Very good. These things, I believe, are intended as we are here now to help the younger brethren to see how the older brethren have got things, and they can speak of them and take them in and encourage others who are not at these meetings; take home good tidings to encourage those who could not come.
H.B. Would the word in Deuteronomy 6:7 help, "thou shalt impress them on thy sons, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thy house"?
J.T. Yes. There is so apt to be very little in our conversation that is profitable; whereas what we hear is the great thing and we want to impress it on others a, we go home.
A.J.G. Do you think the apostle was bringing in a further establishing feature in saying, "Knowing, brethren beloved by God, your election" as though he would remind the Thessalonians that the way they had received the gospel was evidence of their being elect of God? Is not that a very establishing feature in the soul?
J.T. Yes. There is something very peculiar in being elected of God. We have the word chosen too, have we not; it says of the Lord "with God chosen, precious".
F.J.F. God has greatly privileged us above all believers on the earth to have the light of the assembly, and the question is how much we appreciate it.
J.T. And in appreciating it, to speak of it to others as we have opportunity, and especially in the home circles, the children and mothers. Be sure to carry
something for them to partake of that will build them up also.
L.E.S. Do you think that the difficulty with many of us is that we do not understand the bearing of our baptism? Does not baptism enter much into what we are saying?
F.W. James says, "Have patience, therefore, brethren, till the coming of the Lord", James 5:7.
J.T. Yes. We feel the need of it constantly, but the coming of the Lord draws nigh.
1 Thessalonians 2:1 - 20
J.T. Referring again to the matter of youthfulness indicated in this epistle, it might be remarked that the word children is used in different senses, not only here, but in John's epistles. We have stressed the idea of youthfulness and the idea of children, but the first sense is that the word children alludes to the saints generally irrespective of age or growth, whereas on the other hand, the word little children in John's epistle refers to growth. It corresponds a good deal with what we have in this epistle. I mention it because some of us may carry away the thought that 'children' is used only of youthful persons, whereas the word sometimes conveys the thought of children generally; that is, God's children. So we have in John's epistle, "See what love the Father has given to us, that we should be called the children of God", 1 John 3:1. That refers to the saints generally. It is not a question of youthfulness but rather derivation. On the other hand, in that same epistle we have the idea of little children, first the idea of children in the general sense, and then we have fathers, and young men and little children. The latter alludes to youthfulness, to growth and the like. It is important to keep this in mind so that we are not misled by any expressions as to the saints, because God is thinking of us in the main as His children. "See what love the Father has given to us". It is the Father; He has bestowed this on us that we are to be called, not His sons, but His children. Then the little children refer to the saints who are young in the faith, which is the point in our first epistle, that the saints may be regarded as not developed very much in the truth. Of course, it is a humbling thing if we are not developed when we
should be. At the same time Scripture makes a difference between the two things. The lack of growth, of course, is almost surely the evidence of a low state amongst the saints, a low condition. These meetings are in order to lead up to full growth, because that is what God intends. We cannot assume that we will be little children in heaven. We have to assume that we shall all be perfect in heaven, complete.
R.W.S. In 1 John 2 the reference to the unction is in the paragraph which begins, "Little children, it is the last hour". Then it says in verse 20, "And ye have the unction from the holy one, and ye know all things". Again in verse 27, "But as the same unction teaches you as to all things, and is true and is not a lie, and even as it has taught you, ye shall abide in him". Does the fresh ministry as to the Person of the Spirit promote greater growth in all of us and especially the young?
J.T. The little children are to become full grown, and the Spirit, of course, is the power for that. So that we have in the first reference, chapter 2: 1, "My children, these things I write to you"; that refers to Christians generally. Then we have in verse 12, "I write to you, children", which also refers to Christians generally. Then we have in verse 13, "I write to you, fathers", that is full development, "because ye have known him that is from the beginning". That is to say, they have gone the full length of the instruction, they are called fathers. Then again, "I write to you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one". That is number two. Then again, "Little children", if you look at the note you will see that this refers to growth. It is the third reference that refers to growth. It is a question now, therefore, of what is in our minds in I Thessalonians, because it is assumed in what has been proposed that the condition here is in need of development
and growth, otherwise, without making any charges, there should not be so much difficulty locally. What is in one place may be true of every gathering represented here, that is to say, a low state, and the great point is self-judgment and making way for the Spirit of God. So that John says, "we know that if it is manifested we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is". That is future, already we are the children of God.
R.W.S. I want to see, and all of us, the wonderful favour of the day in which we are, with the precious ministry of the last few years especially, that we can move out of the little children state to full manhood.
J.T. Well, if we are to be in heaven, it must be so. We might say, how can it be so? we suppose the time is short. Well, it is a question then of what God can do, not what we think, but what He is capable of doing, so that God can do a great deal in a short time. Job says, "I know that thou canst do everything", Job 42:2.
F.J.F. Why does the Lord call the disciples in John 21 by the term 'little children' when they were coming back to him on the lakeside. Verse 5, "Jesus therefore says to them, Children, have ye anything to eat?" The note refers to 1 John 2:13, 18, 'little children'. Why does he call them little children?
J.T. It is not in the text, not that I deny what you say, it is just children in the text. There is not much in that, only the idea of children. It is a diminutive thought undoubtedly in the Lord's mind, but still it is children according to the text of the translator.
F.J.F. I was thinking of what was said, that the time for learning is very short, and we have the Holy Spirit and the Lord to help us to move forward. I thought it was very encouraging that the Lord did not say any harsher word to them. They are still very precious to Him although they had wandered away.
J.T. You mean they went after Peter?
F.J.F. Yes, would that cause disunity if some are straying away?
J.T. I do not think we should make very much of that, that they followed Peter. It was more a matter of a careless way of doing things, because the Lord knew where they were actually as to the state of their souls. The Lord afterwards went at length into Peter's condition. "Simon ... lovest thou me more than these?" It is a question of love and Peter had assumed to love more than the others. The Lord corrects him in all that. As you say, it may refer to state, but at the same time I do not think it is a question of the general weakness of the saints at that time. It is more that they needed correction. Peter says "I go to fish" and the others say 'we will go with thee'. The Lord brought them back and served a dinner for them. "Come and dine", He said to them. They were viewed as men really; we do not say "Come and dine" to little children. They are viewed as intelligent.
A.J.G. Would you say it was no reproach to the Thessalonians to be little children because they were only about three weeks old, but it was a reproach to the Corinthians to have to be addressed as babes?
J.T. There has to be the little children stage in a spiritual sense with those who are recently converted, but under proper care and influence and example and teaching they will grow normally. But with the Corinthians they had a great deal of the apostle's ministry and yet when he wrote to them he had to tell them they were only babes in Christ, which was really a reproach to them.
F.W. "As a father his own children, we used to exhort each one of you, and comfort and testify, that ye should walk worthy of God". The children need help.
J.T. Quite so, there is a need of care. The apostle acted as a father to them. He regarded them as his
own children. That would mean what they were generally to him, that they were really converted by God and had some growth and so were capable of taking on the truth. The word is "For ye know yourselves, brethren, our entering in which we had to you", and so on. So the position he is taking here is in keeping with what we have been saying, that they were young in the faith; but still, there was some growth in them and they needed a father's care and he had shown, and was showing, that to them. At the same time there was definite formation or he could not have spoken to them as he does. He assumes they are intelligent. So he goes on to say, "For ye remember, brethren, our labour and toil: working night and day, not to be chargeable to any one of you, we have preached to you the glad tidings of God. Ye are witnesses, and God, how piously and righteously and blamelessly we have conducted ourselves with you that believe", that is to say, they were characteristically believers. "As ye know how, as a father his own children, we used to exhort each one of you, and comfort and testify, that ye should walk worthy of God, who calls you to his own kingdom and glory". Now I would submit to the brethren that what he says indicates a real, distinct formation in the Thessalonian saints and that they are ready for what the apostle has to say, and the whole epistle implies that there is the Spirit's work and formation in these saints. That is a very great matter.
N.B. Would you tell us why the thought of God is so prominent in this chapter? There are twenty verses and the term God appears fourteen times.
J.T. I am glad you speak of that. It is not the way God is presented in Romans exactly. Here it is what God is; God is love, and that is what is spoken of in this epistle, as John speaks of Him. We have a great deal of the salvation of God in Romans. It is more to bring out the responsibility to which God
holds His people, not simply that they are lovable, but that they are serviceable to God.
Rem. In verse 10 he puts the Thessalonian saints on a very high level when it comes to witness.
J.T. It says, "Ye are witnesses, and God, how piously and righteously and blamelessly we have conducted ourselves with you that believe". They are viewed as believers; they really have faith.
Rem. I can see that. My point was that when it came to a question of witness the apostle says, "Ye are witnesses, and God".
J.T. We are responsible to God; it is not the Father, but God as such. "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth", that is the idea. It is the great Creator and the One to whom the whole creation is responsible.
A.B. Is Paul outstanding in that way in regard to his ministry? No one says like Paul, "God is my witness", Romans 1:9. He calls God into his own personal matters in relation to his service.
W.W.M. Would there be a difference in the thought of "a nurse ... her own children"; that is the gentleness and tenderness that would be shown to a young child, and the apostle's speaking of himself as a father with his own children which refers more to the faithfulness that would be needed to maintain things?
J.T. Just so. They were of such value to him, "his own children". In figure he uses the expression "a nurse"; it is a figure of his attitude toward the Thessalonians, that they began well. He regarded them as his own children, and therefore worthy of all the care he could confer on them.
J.K.P. In chapter 1 you were calling attention to imitators of Paul and of the Lord. In this chapter
it is the thought of imitators of the assembly. Does that suggest the further idea of growth you have in mind? I was thinking of their taking on the truth in a broad way in relation to other assemblies as stated in verse 14.
J.T. These brethren became imitators of the assemblies; it is plural, "the assemblies of God which are in Judaea". Why should it be noted that they became imitators of the assemblies in Judaea? I take it to be a credit to them. They are not selfish or partisan or national in their feelings. It is a question of God, "the assemblies of God which are in Judaea", that is, the general idea that is conveyed is, that they were imitating the assemblies in Judaea. Undoubtedly there were a great many meetings in Judea at that time. It was Judaea, that is where the Jews lived. So the Thessalonians were not national. Judea had been a great field of God's works, and they imitated that. We might say we had better imitate Judaea because God has been working there and we get light there. We are so apt to be national.
F.N.W. Does the influence of a father like Paul free the saints generally from national feeling?
J.T. I think it would, because Paul would be with God in all that was going on; he would not be national. Sometimes we are apt to be national. If a brother comes over from England, he might say things are done so and so in England, and it might not be right even. National feeling is the hardest thing to get rid of.
R.W.S. It is linked on with suffering in verse 14, "for ye also have suffered the same things of your own countrymen as also they of the Jews". The feature of suffering was set out in Judaea and how they acted would be an example to the Thessalonians. In our day would not the way the trade union matter has been met in Australia and other parts be an example to us here in the way we should meet it?
J.T. The word is "your own countrymen"; that ought to prevent mere national feeling; your own countrymen, the persons with whom you live, are apt to be persecutors. If they are apt to persecute you, then we are not likely to be national, and it is a very wholesome thing.
A.B.P. Had they seen suffering in the apostle, and the spirit that marked him though having suffered?
J.T. He would be an example to them.
G.H. The epistle starts with "Paul and Silvanus and Timotheus to the assembly of Thessalonians". Is that to bring out the good state among them?
J.T. Well, they were Thessalonians. It is important that we should take account of nations where God works. At Thessalonica there was a real work of God and Paul was used in it. They were Thessalonians and yet the apostle speaks of their own country. Another thing is they are said to be "in God the Father". God is taking care of them, not simply that they are God's, but the Father's, "in God the Father".
J.K. In 1 John 2, verse 13, a word is used which conveys that the state produced continues. Is that what should be seen in the saints today?
J.T. I think it would refer to what is local; as regards the work of God in America, there has been great improvement over fifty years, and I believe the explanation is largely that meetings such as these have been continued steadily during all this period. There is great encouragement for us to go on. There have been more of them lately than ever before in this country and Canada, I believe, showing that God is working with the brethren and He helps us. The Spirit of God Himself is helping us, because He is acting as the One sent front heaven. He is here in obedience, as it were, to carry out the will of God in this country and to work the work of God in it.
J.K. So that in that way we are privileged to see that as children of God there is a state being produced that continues.
J.T. As far as my memory goes, it is fifty years that these things have been going on. Our dear brother, Mr. S., if I may be allowed to refer to him, lived here for years, and God greatly blessed him because he aided brethren to come from different parts, from England particularly, and they came and were used. The work of God in that sense has been greatly augmented during these years, and it is still being augmented by means of these meetings.
Ques. Speaking about the work of God in this country, should we not be exercised that there are so many large cities where there are no meetings? What can we do about the matter?
J.T. Take Buffalo, near here, there is no meeting there; and many others like that. It is a great sorrow and exercise, but at the same time the work of God to a great extent is comparatively recent in this country.
Ques. Yes. I would like help as to what our exercises should be as to that matter. Should we pray more frequently at the prayer meetings that other saints in this country should also be drawn into the pathway of separation?
J.T. I think what is needed, to begin with, is the spirit of evangelisation, which marked Paul peculiarly. He connects the glad tidings with God, not simply the Father, "God's glad tidings" (Romans 1:1); that is something that should appeal to young hearts, that God is behind all evangelisation, and that should promote the spirit of evangelisation in all the saints, so that we talk to people in the light of that, that we bring in the gospel at every opportunity.
R.W.S. I wonder if Acts 17 would help. Verse 1, "And having journeyed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica"; that is,
two cities appear to be passed by and Thessalonica is evangelised. In this country there is a meeting in Washington which is growing; there is more there than there used to be, so that God still has the cities He wishes to have in the testimony. In the key cities of the world, really, the testimony is there, is it not?
J.T. Well, there are more brethren in this general meeting that I ever saw before in Rochester. That is something; it shows increased interest.
C.H.H. Would you encourage evangelising like Luke 10, where you might visit a city and find a son of peace in a house which would be a nucleus for an assembly? The house precedes the city in Luke 10.
J.T. That is good. There may be something to be said about all that as to this country and Canada, because I do believe there is general interest proceeding in these countries and in the adjoining countries to the far south; even in the Argentine there is a nice interest, a Roman Catholic country.
N.B. In Acts 17 we read that those in Berea were more noble than those in Thessalonica, yet we do not hear of an assembly in Berea. Would you help us as to that?
J.T. It would look from the words spoken that there must have been an assembly there. They found things out from the Scriptures. The allusion would imply that there was an assembly there.
F.J.F. Would it be right for a brother to go to a town where there was no meeting if it was laid on his heart by the Lord?
J.T. If it is laid on his heart, it must be right, surely.
Rem. It is remarkable that the queen of the south came up to see the one who says, "I, the Preacher, was king over Israel in Jerusalem", Ecclesiastes 1:12. God has not overlooked Africa.
J.T. That is to say, the preacher was a king, so the preaching was in good hands. It is a great inquiry as to what God has at the present time in different parts of the world to proclaim the glad tidings, and that is by preachers. The word preacher ought to be looked into carefully because it is the means that God has of announcing the glad tidings. Solomon was a king, but he was also a preacher, Jonah and several others were preachers. Nebuchadnezzar was a preacher. There are quite a few preachers who are a help and an encouragement to us if we follow up what is said of them in the Scriptures.
Ques. This great evangelical idea is not limited to local platforms, is it? It is the great thought of God for men.
C.M. In verse 13 there seems to be an indication of the kind of preaching that had been going on in Thessalonica, does there not? It says, "And for this cause we also give thanks to God unceasingly that, having received the word of the report of God by us, ye accepted, not men's word, but, even as it is truly, God's word, which also works in you who believe". It was not only a matter of the preaching going forward but the way in which it was received and God working in those who believe.
J.T. Quite so, so that the solution we come to is that everything is to be traced back to God. God has made use of men like Paul, they were preachers and God was with them. We must trace everything back to God if we are to be right. That ought to come out in meetings like these, that God is working.
C.H.H. Would the experience in Isaiah 6 enter into evangelising, the thought of the moral preparation and then the prophet saying "Send me", the idea of being sent and being available to be sent?
J.T. God is ready to send, of course: at the same time do we convey the idea of preaching, the heart that goes with the preaching, how God is in that
heart? Isaiah, I suppose, is the most evangelical of all the prophets.
A.B.P. Does Romans 10:14, 15 bring that into the present day? "How then shall they call upon him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe on him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without one who preaches? and how shall they preach unless they have been sent?"
J.T. Very good. There are a great many who can preach at the present time, but the next thing is whether God is with them, so that there is power in the preaching and real product of fruit from the preaching.
F.H.L. At the end of Acts 17 Paul is preaching in Athens and getting results but he does not seem to continue the work. Would you say a word about that? "Thus Paul went out of their midst. But some men joining themselves to him believed; among whom also was Dionysius the Areopagite, and a woman by name Damaris, and others with them". In view of all that has been said as to evangelisation, I was wondering why Paul does not continue the work there.
J.T. The indication is that the work was very small, but it was there anyway both in men and women. There was a man and a woman, "and others with them". There was some fruit from it, and we do get fruit in our little gospel meetings. We should, and do, get fruit and additions to the meetings too through the preaching. So that we should not be altogether discouraged, because God is working in this country and in Canada.
R.W.S. You made an observation a few days ago in a reading on Romans 3 that preachers should understand Leviticus in a better way than they do. It came in in connection with the mercy-seat.
J.T. I do think that, that Leviticus is very little understood by the brethren, especially as to the law
of things, how things are done and according to law, so that they are not done according to man's will, but according to law in Leviticus. The law of things is given in Leviticus.
R.W.S. Yes, I am just wondering how that applies in the gospel preaching.
J.T. Well, how things are done in the word. Whatever we are doing should be governed by law, by what is right, not done any way, because the whole of Christendom has veered away to man's way of doing things. It is what we are trying to do now in meetings like this to keep things according to law, according to the law of God. The apostle says it is a question of the commandment of the Lord; it is a question of the commandment that is according to God. The whole of Christendom has veered away from that to man's way. God has been helping us in what the brethren have been seeking to do for 150 years, what is right to do, what ought to be done as we are together. They began to do what was right and then open brethrenism developed almost immediately. The devil got in, in opposition to the great revival of the truth, but the Spirit of truth continues with the saints. He is with us now to teach us how to get things done right. It says the daughters of Zelophehad speak right; it is a great matter to do things and say things that are right.
A.R. Is that why Paul refers in this chapter to the glad tidings of God?
J.T. Just so, it is in keeping with Romans, but I think it is to appeal to the Thessalonians in their youthfulness, because they are ready to take in things. Although they are youthful, they love God. They are of God. There is a lot to indicate that they love God and they want to hear about God, that is more what is meant, whereas in Romans it is more the responsibility that attaches to the thought of God,
but here it is the love that is drawn out to God, that the Thessalonians loved God.
J.L.P. Would the end of Matthew's gospel have any bearing on what has been before us? The Lord says, "All power has been given me in heaven and upon earth". And then commissioning the disciples to go and make disciples of all the nations, and then the matter of teaching them to "observe all things whatsoever I have enjoined you". Matthew 28:18, 20.
J.T. And the next thing is that "I am with you all the days, until the completion of the age". That is, the Lord is going to be with us if we do this, not simply the responsibility that attaches to it but He is going to be with us. "Baptising them to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit", it says at the end of Matthew, and the Lord says I am going to be with you always. That would mean, not what John says, but what Matthew teaches; that is to say, the Lord is with us always, whereas in John He comes to us. "I am coming to you", He says, John 14:18. In Matthew He is always with us, and I think we ought to pay attention to that too. We can always count on the Lord.
W.W.M. Would you say a word about the street preaching? Should we carry it on?
J.T. I think it is a first-rate work. When I was in Australia the last time, I noticed that there was no street preaching and l pointed it out to the brethren. There is street preaching now always. We do it in this country.
W.W.M. It speaks about Philip going down to Samaria to preach. I wondered if it would be right for any who had it laid upon his heart to preach in other towns besides the ones in which we have our meetings.
J.T. It is a question of what God is doing. If He lays it upon your heart, it must be right to do it; I would say it is always right to do it whenever you
have an opportunity. Another thing that comes up is whether there is fellowship in what is being done, whether the brethren are with you in it.
W.W.M. The scripture says, "How shall they hear without one who preaches? and how shall they preach unless they have been sent?" Romans 10:14, 15. Would the idea of being sent be more connected with the love of souls that God would put in a man's heart to try to win others?
J.T. Just so. I would add to what you have said the idea of fellowship, and the other thing is that the brothers are to have gift. There must be some gift before there is preaching, some ability from God to preach.
W.W.M. In regard to the preaching of the glad tidings, the word of God, while you have in mind the blessing of men, would you have the assembly in mind because that is where the result for God counts? Unless there is a result for God you are really only adding to the confusion of Christendom.
A.J.G. Do you not think we might well pray more definitely for specific gift in preaching? There should be real power and obvious results.
J.T. I do think that. I would hardly venture to say how many persons there are who can stand up and preach, and preach well in a sense, in New York district. The great thing, therefore, is to ask God about power. There should be power; not in word, but in power, as the apostle says; ability, too, as to the words used because there must be ability and understanding, but at the same time to be sure there is power attached to it.
J.T. You get it from God. God gives the power.
Ques. Do you mean by saying that, that we are to have power, that one should have moral weight before God?
J.T. Quite so. And then there is another thing that has to be attached to all this, that whether it be God Himself, or whether it be the Father specifically, or the Son, or the Spirit, They should be regarded as God. Whether it be the Father, or the Lord, or the Spirit, each One can be regarded as God, so that divine Persons are viewed interchangeably. They are all God; if They are doing anything, God is doing it. Therefore, we are wonderfully enlarged by thinking of divine Persons and how They can be viewed as interchanging with each other in the service. But God is always working.
Rem. I wonder in that connection whether you might give us a word as to verse 12 and the last verse of our chapter. "That ye should walk worthy of God" and "For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of boasting? are not ye also before our Lord Jesus at his coming? for ye are our glory and joy". The two divine Persons are mentioned.
J.T. Quite so, and you can add to that the Spirit too, because the Spirit operates also as God.
Rem. I wondered whether it was God in the full sense in verse 12, involving the three divine Persons. We might get help as to the idea of walking "worthy of God, who calls you to his own kingdom and glory", and then the "Lord Jesus at his coming". What would be the distinction?
J.T. Whatever divine Person we mention, by the terms that are mentioned we can say whether it is God Himself, or the Lord Jesus, or the Holy Spirit. We see the names of divine Persons and how they may be presented in Scripture, then we can understand what terms to use. Is that God, or who is it, or is the Person specifically mentioned? If it is not specific, it is God, of course, that is the thought. Then if Christ is mentioned we can see that He is called God too. "He is the true God and eternal life", 1 John 5:20. And the Spirit is God and may
be called God too, so that we can always arrive at what term to use when we are speaking of divine Persons.
G.S. Does verse 13 involve the Spirit really, "the report of God by us" and "God's word, which also works in you who believe"?
J.T. It might be. It says "give thanks to God", that is God in general, and then "having received the word of the report of God by us". "The report of God" may be by the Spirit. "Ye accepted, not men's word, but even as it is truly, God's word"; that also may be regarded as involving the Spirit. Another thing to keep in mind to confirm all that, is that the Spirit has come down; He has been sent from heaven. It never says that God has been sent down, God comes down; that may be the Spirit. God comes down and works here.
C.H.H. Revelation 22:17, "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that hears say, Come. And let him that is athirst come; he that will, let him take the water of life freely". Does that give an evangelical touch to the final phase of the assembly's history?
J.T. Just so, at the very end of the dispensation, an evangelical touch. In fact that whole chapter has an evangelical touch about it.
R.W.S. Paul says, in verse 18, "Wherefore we have desired to come to you, even I Paul, both once and twice, and Satan has hindered us". I wondered about Satan hindering the great apostle Paul, and whether there is anything like that today.
J.T. He is the adversary against God; the word implies an adversary. Paul was conscious of that all the time; "Satan has hindered us", he says.
R.W.S. I am puzzled a little by it. I wondered if you had experienced anything of being hindered by Satan in your service. Paul wanted to go once and twice, and Satan apparently hindered him. I
wondered, without being personal, if you had ever experienced being hindered by Satan from going to a place.
A.R. Would not the Second World War be Satan hindering? You could not go to England during the war.
J.T. It may have been discipline for me. Some ministrations were hindered and stopped altogether. Certainly we have to recognise the fact that Satan is allowed to act. Presently he will be imprisoned and then he will be let loose after that. Sometimes God allows him liberty.
Ques. In Daniel 10:13 it says "The prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days". Do you think that is the same idea?
J.T. Quite so, exactly the same thing.
J.T.Jr. Paul says to the Corinthians that Satan should not get an advantage: "That we might not have Satan get an advantage against us", 2 Corinthians 2:11. That is for us to see to, is it not?
J.T. We are watchful to that end, that Satan may not hinder us.
J.H.E. The Lord could detect quickly; He said to Peter, "Get away behind me, Satan", Mark 8:33
J.T. Just so, very practical in that sense. The Lord dealt with him at once.
1 Thessalonians 3:1 - 13
J.T. The specific features of the truth in this chapter are not as striking as in the others, especially chapters 4 and 5. These two chapters will afford much for us as to the Lord's coming. One thing that has come to mind that we have not touched on as much as the truth requires, and that is the matter of God Himself, God as such, according to the way the Spirit may help us as to the titles that we should use. We should know how to use them, and use them as needed, and it is thought that we should therefore begin with the different titles. The first title in the Bible is God; God Himself is in mind, and the reference is to Him as Creator in Genesis 1. The second chapter of Genesis has much that we should look at; that is to say, the modifying effect of Jehovah, which will eventually work out in the truth of the Father. The second chapter of the book of Genesis modifies the first; that is to say, the first refers to God as such, as the Creator. "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth". That is how it begins. "And the earth was waste and empty, and darkness was on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters". The Spirit of God is alluded to as well as God Himself, but the first title is God; it is a plural word. It is the word used to specify the Creator as such. It is thought that we should become more familiar with the idea of God as the Creator, and how He is referred to throughout the Bible in this sense, especially in John's gospel. We have in John's gospel, for instance, the idea of the world, that God loved it; "God so loved the world". Not that we want to cover the whole Bible at one reading, but just to touch on the divine titles, the divine names of God, and how they differ and how they bear on
the various phases of the truth. Of course, it is hoped that we shall work out the thoughts that are in mind even in connection with this third chapter where God is not spoken much of, but He is spoken much of in the whole epistle and especially in relation to the Lord's coming. So that the first title is Elohim, which is God. The translator tells us it is in the plural and refers to the Creator. We should at least go away from these meetings with a clear view of God as the Creator and how He speaks of things in the creation. Another thing that comes up is why the creation of man is reserved for such a recent period as we get in Genesis 1:26; he comes in on the sixth day of the so-called creation. Therefore to clarify expressions that are much used as to God and as to the creation it is well to keep in mind that it says that God loved the world. While the idea is not here in this chapter, it is thought that there is very little idea of what is in mind, that is, that God loved the world. God is so spoken of as being God of many things as well as persons. The first thought is that God loved the world, so loved it. According to John's gospel, "God so loved the world"; and why is it said that He loved it? It is not a question of man in it, but the world itself, not a question of persons in it but the world itself. There must be something that draws out God's thoughts in love. The question is whether we understand all this. It is readily understood if we think of the persons that are in it, beginning with Adam, but the things that are in it without specifying man at all.
F.J.F. Do you think that that involves that all creation, even the smallest thing, had in some way reference to Christ? God loved the world because everything in it had in some way reference to Christ.
J.T. Well, it is doubtful that the reference to Christ should be brought in so early, because the things that are in the world must be in mind.
F.J.F. I was thinking of what it says in Colossians, that He is the beginning.
J.T. Quite so, but it is too soon to go into that. We are rather to get the thought of why it says "God so loved the world". We know that there is a great deal of evil in the world, but it is not that that is in mind, it is something else. It is something that came from His own hand that is in mind.
A.Macd. With reference to the city of Athens, mentioned in this chapter, it is interesting that Paul preaches in Athens and says there, "The God who has made the world and all things which are in it", Acts 17:24. Is there a link with what you are saying?
J.T. That is a good thought to bring in if you are preaching the gospel, but we have to go behind that, and see what it says in John's gospel about love, God loving the world. You can bring in the gospel conveniently in what is said about Athens, but then, why, in John's gospel, is God said to love the world?
R.W.S. Is there the thought of order and beauty in the thought of the world in John 3:16?
J.T. That must be what is in mind, because God expended much on the creation. We can hardly compass it, especially when we think of the word world in the plural, that God made the worlds by Christ, "by whom also he made the worlds", the plural; we do not know how many worlds, but He made them, Christ made them. What we are saying is preliminary to the great thought that is in mind, that we should become more conversant with the great idea of God, God Himself, and then the variation of titles that are found as to Him in the Scriptures.
L.E.S. Would the last few psalms support what you are speaking of, bringing in the greatness and glory of the creation? The variety and vastness of
the realm of creation consummates in celebrating in praises the greatness of God.
J.T. Quite so. The Psalms finish up with God. But then the question arises at once as to why love is brought into it, merely as to the creation itself, that God loved the world, not the worlds; we do not know how many there are, but we do know the one we are in now, and that is what is in mind, because that is where the gospel is preached. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whosoever believes on him may not perish, but have life eternal". That is the great thought that is in mind, and how much the brethren generally are conversant with that great thought of the world.
Rem. It says of the earth that He formed it to be inhabited.
J.T. Yes, but we have not the people yet, because it is a question of the world, nakedly, the world. God so loved it. We may say, and rightly, that the persons must be in mind, because "He gave his only-begotten Son, that whosoever believes on him may not perish, but have life eternal". We have to come back to that. We ought to work up to it and get the whole thought underlying it, and see how John deals with it, and then see how it comes into our chapter.
C.A.M. In connection with this great subject we have the thought of the power of God. We have possibly connected this idea of power largely with God's first creation, but the thought you are expressing now seems to stress that the idea of love was there in a special way originally.
J.T. God is over all and through all and in us all. That is an Ephesian thought which, of course, ought to come into what we are talking about, but then why should He love the world? Why is it put as the world? Why should He love it?
A.R. Does your remark bear on the first five days of the creation as well as the sixth day?
J.T. Well, we have to go back to the first five days of the creation as you say. It says, "in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth", that is to say, God made it Himself, not the Father, nor Jehovah, but God Himself; that is to say, Elohim. The translator tells us that it is God in the absolute.
Ques. Is your thought that the world was a perfect sphere for the bringing in of Christ and all that was to be consummated through Him?
J.T. That has been said already, but I thought it was better to get back to the basic thought of the world, without coming on to Christ or the people that are in the world. Of course, Christ must be in mind. There is no question about that because He has made everything. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God". "All things received being through him, and without him not one thing received being which has received being. In him was life, and the life was the light of men", John 1:1 - 4. It was not the light of angels; it was the light of men. That must be touched on, but then, before that we have to come to the basic thought of why God loved the world. It does not say He loved the people in it, but loved it.
M.O. Does this matter stand related to the will of God? In Revelation 4 the elders say, "For thou has created all things, and for thy will they were, and they have been created".
J.T. Quite so. You have the same principle in Colossians. But we must get back to the idea of Elohim; that is to say, to Him who is the absolute in everything, that in all that happens historically we must go back to the source of it. Why should it be? He deals with the naked thought of the world.
Why should it be said that God loved it? It is God, Elohim, not Jehovah, not the Father, but just God, God Himself. What is in mind is that we should think of God, what God is, and our minds trace back everything that happens to God.
G.S. Do you have in mind God's own handiwork of which it is said that it was good?
J.T. That is right, and there is something, if we can ever get at it or ever understand it, that affects the heart of God. I should say more the mind of God, that God's mind has been active. Why was it active? It was to bring out all that exists at the present time; it is to be in our minds to think of it, and how God is using it.
A.B.P. Did the Lord Jesus have this in mind when He said, "Consider the lilies, how they grow"?
A.J.G. When Paul in Romans speaks about the Creator, he says, "who is blessed for ever. Amen", Romans 1:25. Does that enter into what we are saying?
J.T. Very good; that brings God in peculiarly, as we have already had, that God in Romans is more the Creator, and that things are of Him and that He is the Author of the gospel. But then we have to go back, if we preach the gospel for instance, and ask why it should be said that God loved the world and why it is God, God Himself, and why it is the plural. Who are the Beings that are behind it all, and what do we know about Them, and what do we know about the other worlds that are spoken of that God made through Christ in a mediatorial sense? He made the worlds by Christ.
F.W. In Colossians before Paul speaks of men he speaks of all things in heaven and on earth. Would you say a word about that?
J.T. That is another thing, reconciliation. We have come to a new heaven and a new earth too,
but we are now dealing with the present earth. Why should God make it and what is there in it that draws out His mind or His approval or, we might say, His affections, that He loves it?
Ques. Do I understand that it was the world before sin came in? "God so loved the world", some people think it is the world as it is now, but is it Genesis 1:1: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth". Is that what He loved?
J.T. Well, the word beginning helps in your thought. "In the beginning" and then we have the same expression in John 1. It relates to the Word, "In the beginning was the Word", the Logos. But now we are dealing with God, not the Logos, but God Himself, Elohim, a plural word. Why should He be engaged with it in His mind as something to be admired or loved? Why should it be, that is the question, not that I wish to puzzle the brethren, but that we should be conversant with God as Creator and see what part He has in it, and how it works out and how He brings us into it, so that we get Colossians and Ephesians all touching on this point.
R.S. Do you think Romans 1 helps in that, that what He created and made became a testimony to His eternal power and divinity?
J.L.P. Would it be covered too in 1 Chronicles 29 when David said "Thine, Jehovah, is the greatness, and the power, and the glory, and the splendour, and the majesty; for all that is in the heavens and on the earth is thine", and then David goes on to speak of God as "Head above all".
J.T. It is good to bring that in too, that God is Head. It is a peculiar word and applicable to God, that He is Head, and it must apply to the creation too, that is to say, the thought of God in His knowledge creating.
F.N.W. Is there a link in that way with Proverbs 8 where wisdom speaks of "rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth"?
J.T. Very good, some may say that wisdom is Christ there, in the way He is spoken of, but it is not Christ exactly, it is an element by itself. Wisdom is an item by itself that attaches to God. It used to be regarded that Christ was wisdom there; in a certain sense He is, but properly speaking, wisdom is a thing, not a person. Wisdom is a thing attachable to God.
T.W. Is the expression world in John 3 a development on the thought of earth in Genesis 1?
J.T. The word world must include the heavens too; it must include the whole system of creation. "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth".
A.B. Is it not that God loved an ordered system governed by fixed principles?
J.T. Very good, fixed principles, not simply a principle, but principles. It is a question now of getting our minds active in what is needful if we want to get at the truth, because the truth implies the creation, not the creation of man exactly, but the creation by itself as specified in the first chapter of Genesis. The word is "God created the heavens and the earth", not made it, but created it.
G.H. The last verse of Genesis 1 says, "And God saw everything that he had made, and behold it was very good". Would that bring out how God looked upon it with delight?
J.T. That is what He made in the days that are mentioned; it was a question of days. But what we are talking about now "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" is not what is alluded to in the days. The first verse is just the bare thought of creation, and after that Satan had something to
do with it. There was a chaotic condition that came into it, and then the days came in so that God might order it as He wanted it for the present time as we have it now.
G.W. What is meant in 1 John 2 where it says, that we are not to love the world?
J.T. That is the moral system, but what we are talking about is the physical system as God made it, before ever it was touched by sin. It was before sin came in that God created everything, and then we come to the fact that it is all by Christ.
Ques. Is John 3:17 in line with John 3:16, "For God has not sent his Son into the world that he may judge the world, but that the world may be saved through him"?
J.T. That is the moral side, the moral condition.
F.J.F. Did God love the world, because it was to be the arena where He would display Himself?
H.B. Would Isaiah 45 help? "For thus saith Jehovah who created the heavens, God himself who formed the earth and made it, he who established it, -- not as waste did he create it".
J.T. That is to say, what we have now is not what is mentioned in the first verse of Genesis. The latter is what God did in the beginning before Satan had anything to do with it or sin had anything to do with it. "In the beginning God", not Jehovah, not the Father, but God, "created the heavens and the earth. And the earth was waste and empty". He did not create it that way. It is first the bare thought, that "God created the heavens and the earth", without saying anything more.
R.W.S. When it says "the sons of God shouted for joy" (Job 38:7), would they reflect what was in God's heart at the time?
J.T. No doubt they had some light, that would be the angels, showing that the angels were created
before men, but they must have been created after the first verse of Genesis, when "God created the heavens and the earth". As far as I understand, the angels must have come in after that. They were to be used, "Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out for service on account of those who shall inherit salvation?" Hebrews 1:14. They serve not only God but men, therefore they are in view after the creation, after the first of Genesis. The bare thought of the creation must come in before anything that we have had to do with, because we read "before the foundation of the world". The Lord Jesus says the Father loved Him "before the foundation of the world", John 17:24. We must make way for that, that God did something before the foundation of the world.
F.J.F. Mr. Darby said when he looked at a rose that he loved it because of the One who made it. Would that be right?
J.T. The flowers, the growth of the earth, that would be the third day of the creation when all that was made. We have vegetables on the earth and all that, but then we have to go back to the first verse before we come to that. "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth". What did He actually create? We have an atmosphere attached to it too, necessary for it, so that we have to work all that out in our minds, that "God created the heavens and the earth". Elohim, that is the God of power, because the word implies His power.
J.V.W. Would Psalm 90 help in that? "From eternity to eternity thou art God".
J.T. Well, that is Moses, and he brings it down to our condition here. It is the bare idea of creation that we are talking about. We should not stop at that because we want to get at something else, but we do not want to leave what we began with without some thought to carry away with us in our minds to
educate us in the things of God that will work out in regard to moral things.
A.J.G. Is it to be noted that in the day of eternity God still has heaven and earth, "a new heaven and a new earth", as though what He started with in creating the heavens and the earth was His prime thought that He goes right through with?
J.T. Very good. The final thought implies that something has happened, some adverse or sinister thing had happened and that originated with the devil, and the book of Revelation shows how that is finally met. There is no formal evidence or statement as to anything happening save that "the earth was waste and empty", not the heavens. We should stop there and get something into our minds to carry away that we can use in working out the truth in a moral sense.
F.K.C. Do you think when God takes up the matter with Job following on Elihu's speech, that He helps Job in what is moral, but He calls attention to the physical universe, the stars, the heavens, the light, darkness, and calving of the hinds. He says, "Where wast thou when I founded the earth?" Job 38:4.
J.T. Just so, so that it is a teaching subject from the standpoint of the book of Job, that Job is to be taught. He is teachable although it takes a long time to bring him to perfection in teaching; he is teachable and of course that may come out in the thought we had in mind. The whole book of Job will come out in what we have in mind, because what helps us as to that is that Satan comes in in that book. The young people get things from the schools that are damaging and defiling, but we are to have in our minds to connect everything with God. Then we come to the mediatorial side, that all was on mediatorial principles, that Christ made the world, but God made the worlds by Christ. He is the Mediator
of creation first; the Mediator of redemption second. We can leave the thought of creation now and come to redemption and then the chapter we have read.
Ques. In verse 11 it says, "But our God and Father himself, and our Lord Jesus". Would it be right to connect that with redemption? Would the person that we have in mind in regard to redemption be the Lord Jesus?
J.T. We have not yet come to redemption; we have been engaged in the thought of creation. There are two great thoughts, that Christ Himself is Mediator, firstly of creation and secondly of redemption. He is Mediator of both, and then when you come to a further thought of mediatorship, it is the law. Moses was mediator of the law, ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator; that is, a law to govern things. The question now is to come to the idea of redemption; that would bring us into our chapter, because we want to see the idea of God as lovable in this book, particularly to be loved by young Christians.
E.A.L. In Thessalonians you have been bringing forward a great deal the thought of youth. In Ecclesiastes we have "Remember thy Creator in the days of thy youth", and it says in the footnote that Creator is plural. We cannot come into the sense of remembering our Creator unless we have right basic thoughts about creation.
J.T. If you look around the earth and the heavens, everything is in your favour. Why should not young people be enjoined to remember God as the Creator? "In the days of thy youth", that fits in with the point in these meetings, that God is to be known and remembered as the Creator. We can come into it and think of it, how God appears in the way in which He does appear in the third chapter, leading up to the fourth chapter and the fifth that we will have later. It is a question of the young people
getting something into their minds to carry away as to creation, because creation is a learning book, full of things that are instructive to our minds and profitable in a moral sense in all that relates to us, leading up to the assembly.
F.H.L. Can we link up Psalm 19 with what you are saying? Behind that is there the thought of God being love, so that there is glory to shine in that way?
J.T. Quite right, and then the idea of the law comes in after that.
R.W.S. So that all that we have had up to this point would remove any thought of evolution which might be imbibed by the young in the schools.
J.T. Quite so. As soon as the children go to school, they are face to face with things that are not according to God. Evolution is a direct lie of the devil. The young people are to be taught by us, by their mothers and fathers, that it is a false thing, the work of the devil. Therefore, the point now is that the young people might carry away something in their minds to defend them, to protect them, to enable them to look into moral things profitably, and see where they are in relation to God, that God is the Creator of everything and that Christ is the Mediator of creation.
F.J.F. Is it true that God never works up to a thing; He works down from the top?
J.T. That is right. God is in heaven and we are on earth. Then we can work out our thoughts to the idea of mediatorship and the high priesthood of Christ. He is in heaven, and the Holy Spirit is here among us today, that is to say, God and Christ in heaven and God in the Spirit here in the assembly. These are all profitable things, especially for young people, to carry away with them to defend themselves from the evil things that are taught in the schools.
R.W.S. All that bears on our chapter, for in verse 5 Paul says, "For this reason I also, no longer able to refrain myself, sent to know your faith, lest perhaps the tempter had tempted you and our labour should be come to nothing".
J.T. Not the devil, but the tempter; the Lord Jesus had to do with the tempter. The young people should get into their minds what the tempter may do to them. So it says, "For this reason I also, no longer able to refrain myself, sent to know your faith, lest perhaps the tempter had tempted you and our labour should be come to nothing". Well, it is very important to get something on those lines, that the work of God should not come to nothing. The tempter would seek to bring the work of God down to nothing in our mind.
R.W.S. The next verse is beautiful: "But Timotheus having just come to us from you, and brought to us the glad tidings of your faith and love, and that ye have always good remembrance of us, desiring much to see us, even as we also you"; so that there is great comfort.
H.E.E. It is remarkable that Paul did not send an older brother to the young christians. He sent Timotheus who was young and would fit in.
J.T. Quite so. He was a young man, a lovable young man. There was no one like him, and we want such persons.
F.J.F. It is important what you are saying, because we have an example in Africa of a young brother who was very happy in the Lord, and he went to the university and a professor there taught him terrible things. The result was that he gave up the fellowship, and he did not believe what it says in the word of God.
J.T. That shows the danger to young people in the universities, and we could cite many cases here in this country of that same thing. Parents should
be careful to watch over children in the schools to see what they are learning, and to see that their minds are refusing evil and entertaining the good, because we get the good in these meetings, in all our meetings. The good is found in the Lord's supper, the prayer meetings, the reading of the word of God, and the preaching of the gospel, and so forth. Provision is made for the young people in our meetings, wherever they are held, whether small or large. The point is to get them to see what is good. The good is of God, and the Spirit of God is here to help the parents to bring the good before their children and to keep it before them.
Rem. Would not the devil use anything he possibly can to overthrow faith; if not evolution, he will use suffering or affliction, such as we have in this chapter.
J.T. Quite so. The young people get it too. If they are faithful to the Lord, they will get it from their school companions. They will get the evil and persecution with it. That is alluded to here.
Ques. Speaking about university education, would it not be advisable for the young people among us who elect to take a university education to be careful to see what subjects they take? Certain subjects are worse than others. Should we be careful what we select for our studies?
J.T. I think parents could get the hearing of the teachers and urge them not to bring certain things before their children. Very often teachers are amenable to influence on the part of the parents, to keep the children from what is damaging. Tell them why. Young people in the schools are very often used of God as a testimony to others.
C.H.H. Would you say there is a great necessity for home teaching, that they might be instructed in the counsels of God so that they might not be discouraged by the breakdown and wreckage they see
around, but see what is going through? The knowledge of the counsels of God would preserve.
J.T. Something better than what the schools present. In earlier days we had Sunday schools for children, and it was found that they were allowed to go out wherever they wished while the readings were going on. The brethren began to see that it was better to bring the children to the reading meetings on the Lord's Day afternoons than to let them be by themselves. So that Sunday Schools as far as I know have been altogether abandoned by the brethren. They have not been found to be helpful spiritually.
C.H.H. Someone alluded yesterday to Deuteronomy 6. It speaks about impressing the children as you sit down in the house. In chapter 11 it says you are to teach. Impressing and teaching children is a home necessity, is it not?
J.T. The believer's house is the greatest place for the children to learn; it is the safest place for them to learn because God is there. God is in the believer's house. It is well to stress upon the children that the devil is outside, but God is inside a believer's house. Keep young believers in the house, where the parents are, where the good influence is, where the Bible is, see that the children are saved from the street.
W.W.M. Do you think we have an example in Moses that would stimulate every parent? Some of us have missed it, but one sees that Moses was put into the hands of his mother and she instructed him, evidently, in the ways of God, in such a way that when he came to years he turned to the people of God and did not turn to Egypt. In speaking of Sunday schools, I experienced as a boy myself what I fear has been damaging. Parents send children to Sunday schools to give them a spiritual education that they should get at home. Any of us who have missed it with our families, it is because we did not
take care of them at home when they were young. Do you agree with that?
J.T. Surely. So children are baptised. There used to be difficulty with some in getting the children baptised, but now there is hardly any difficulty at all. They are baptised in the houses. They are baptised, according to Peter in the name of the Lord (Acts 10:48), and secondly, according to Matthew 28, "to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit". All that is available to children, and parents who have them baptised ought to bring them up under the power of the word of God, because that is what is provided for them.
J.K. This morning you were giving us a word as to the supremacy of God in Genesis 1, then in Genesis 2 the modified term, then God coming into revelation as Father. Is that not the great anchor to our souls as we see God has been pleased to move and reveal Himself in Christ?
J.T. Very good, so that the second chapter of Genesis is Jehovah. It is a modifying thought from the word Elohim, but that leads up to the New Testament where we have the name Father. The children are brought up in the households according to the power of that name.
J.K. That is what I was thinking, so would that not be the great anchor to the soul as we lay hold of the fact that God has been pleased to reveal Himself and to bring us into the marvellous truth which we are enjoying today.
J.T. Quite so. So it is that Hagar went away from her mistress. She was to have a son; the Angel of Jehovah found her and spoke to her and she called the name of Jehovah who spoke to her, "Thou art the God who reveals himself", Genesis 16:13. The thought was to bring the child up in the light of that, of the God who reveals Himself.
Rem. In regard to an earlier remark about the young brother in fellowship going to a university and becoming an unbeliever, I cannot understand how a believer can become an unbeliever. Would you say something about that?
J.T. It is the tempter. The apostle speaks of it here in verse 5, "For this reason I also, no longer able to refrain myself, sent to know your faith, lest perhaps the tempter", that is the devil, "had tempted you and our labour should be come to nothing". That is how a believer becomes an unbeliever, or partially so. That is, he is damaged in his soul by the tempter.
Rem. He is never really entirely an unbeliever again. You say he is damaged in his soul.
J.T. He might be, of course; if he is born again he can never become an unbeliever again, but suppose he was not. He might be brought up under good influence and yet he might not be born again. We want to be sure that the children come into new birth. If they are not born again, you cannot trust them, therefore we have to keep in mind that the influence indicated in the power of the new birth is there. We can count on that.
C.H.H. Reverting to the verse quoted earlier "that ye have always good remembrance of us", would that not indicate the importance of having young people at the meetings so that they might get acquainted with those who serve, because I suppose that would refer to Paul and those who were with him. There would be a certain amount of attractiveness about their ministry and deportment which the young people really ought to be helped by.
J.T. Another thing is that the young people very often congregate with other young people, whereas to get the good of the truth they should be with their elders, with their parents, because the damage is when they get with each other. The good influence
is not there. The parents' influence is a protective influence and can be relied upon.
A.R. Bearing on that would it be confirmed in Acts 21, "all of them accompanying us, with wives and children, till we were out of the city. And kneeling down upon the shore we prayed. And having embraced one another, we went on board ship, and they returned home"? You get the children there accompanying Paul.
J.T. The children were with them to see Paul away. Now we have here something that confirms all this in speaking of the tempter, and the children are especially the objects of the tempter. "But Timotheus having just come to us from you, and brought to us the glad tidings of your faith and love, and that ye have always good remembrance of us"; that is to say, young people are to think of the elder brethren, to get the truth from them: "desiring much to see us, even as we also you", that is how Paul regarded them, the young people, "for this reason we have been comforted in you, brethren, in all our distress and tribulation, through your faith, because now we live if ye stand firm in the Lord". That is to say, the apostle's very life was bound up with the Thessalonians standing firm in the truth.
Rem. "For I know him that he will command his children and his household after him", Genesis 18:19. Abraham's household were all subject to him.
J.T. Abraham is said to be the father of us all, and Sarah is said to be the mother of sisters.
E.A.L. Would the "good remembrance of us" underlie the thought of paying attention to the present ministry? When we leave these meetings we may have a good remembrance of you, but when we think of you we think of the ministry that proceeded from you to us.
J.T. Well, that is the idea. There are many here that young people can think of, and that is
what the apostle had in mind, that the young people he was speaking to had remembrance of him. They would think of Paul as their teacher, they received the gospel through him. That was the case with the Thessalonians, the gospel had come to them through Paul. Then the question is for the household and the parents to carry on unceasingly with the right thing to keep the truth before the young. So that he says "For this reason we have been comforted in you, brethren, in all our distress and tribulation, through your faith, because now we live if ye stand firm in the Lord". His very life, you might say, was bound up with the Thessalonians, showing what a heart he had; indeed, that heart ought to be reflected in every parent here today. "For what thanksgiving can we render to God for you, for all the joy wherewith we rejoice on account of you before our God, night and day beseeching exceedingly to the end that we may see your face, and perfect what is lacking in your faith?". He mentions faith several times for that is the point. They were not simply getting instruction, but growing in faith, because the dispensation we are in is the dispensation of faith, and if we do not have faith we are nothing. What is not of faith is sin, it says, a very solemn thing.
J.L.P. Would this help the young people to become contributors to the joy of the servants? John mentions in his epistles to Gaius and the elect lady that he had no greater joy than to see his children walking in the truth. Is that your thought?
J.T. Just so. It goes on to say, "and perfect what is lacking in your faith? But our God and Father himself". Now we have come to the names of divine Persons, it is "our God and Father himself", first of all, and then "and our Lord Jesus, direct our way to you. But you, may the Lord make to exceed and abound in love toward one another, and
toward all, even as we also towards you, in order to the confirming of your hearts unblamable in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints". "All his saints", not some of them, so that the thought of the Lord's coming is seen peculiarly throughout this epistle, and the next one too. Here in every chapter, the coming of the Lord is mentioned. The Lord is coming with us, not here that He is coming for us, but He is coming with us. The next chapter will tell us that God is in that too, that God will bring us, but here it is the Lord Jesus bringing all the saints with Him.
A.R. How far back does that go? Does that include the Old Testament saints as well as the New?
J.T. I would think so, all the saints up to the present time, a wonderful thought. How comprehensive the Lord is as to His saints. He gathers them as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings. We shall see in the next chapter that God will bring them with Him, showing that divine Persons are differentiated. They are interchangeable in some cases. Here it is the Lord Jesus bringing all the saints with Him. In the next chapter it is God bringing them with Him.
F. Would you connect Zechariah 14:5 with the last verse here? "And Jehovah my God shall come, and all the holy ones with thee".
J.T. I am not sure whether it is the same idea. In Jude it says, "The Lord has come amidst his holy myriads", a great thought. We have all that in our minds as to the Lord's coming, what will happen, what a great thing it will be. The word is in 2 Timothy 4, "to all who love his appearing", that we love the thought of the Lord showing Himself to the universe. "Behold, he comes with the clouds, and every eye shall see him, and they which have pierced him, and all the tribes of the land shall wail
because of him", Revelation 1:7. These are glorious things that are ahead of us when the Lord comes, and it is very imminent. We shall have more about it in the fourth chapter, because it is a chapter that is more pungent as to the truth of the Lord's coming than any other one. We are to "encourage one another with these words", that is to say, the words of chapter four.
J.R.H.Jr. In the latter part of this chapter, touching the activity of divine Persons, is there an allusion to it in the thought of "may the Lord make to exceed and abound in love toward one another"? Is the working out of it the activity of the Holy Spirit? The Holy Spirit is not referred to directly in this section which makes so much of the activity of divine Persons.
J.T. I would say the Spirit would be implied in that, because the Spirit is here. We can well recognise that to be so when it is a question of love, as it says "may the Lord make to exceed and abound in love toward one another ... before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints". The idea is what we are going to be when the Lord comes. The Lord Jesus Himself is mentioned here, so that we must define the Persons we are dealing with, but undoubtedly when it is a question of love the Spirit, being here Himself, is active. His operations are in mind.
J.T.Jr. Verse 8 of the next chapter shows that: "given also his Holy Spirit to you". The Holy Spirit is in us.
1 Thessalonians 4:1 - 18
J.T. From the outset of these meetings it has been commented upon that the coming of the Lord is prominent in this epistle. The Lord's coming is a phrase familiarly used. It appears in this chapter peculiarly, not simply His appearing but His coming for us. It is a hope that we have. What is noted particularly is those that have fallen asleep; those of the saints who have died are particularly important. So verse 13 says, "But we do not wish you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them that are fallen asleep, to the end that ye be not grieved even as also the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus has died and has risen again, so also God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep through Jesus. (For this we say to you in the word of the Lord, that we, the living, who remain to the coming of the Lord, are in no way to anticipate those who have fallen asleep; for the Lord himself, with an assembling shout, with archangel's voice, and with trump of God, shall descend from heaven; and the dead in Christ shall rise first; then we, the living who remain, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall be always with the Lord. So encourage one another with these words.)". I read all the passage that relates to the Lord's coming so that we might have it all clearly before us before we proceed fully in the chapter, and with a view, too, of the further thought of the Lord's coming in chapter 5. We want to begin with the first thought in chapter 4, which is sanctification. It says in verse 3, "For this is the will of God, even your sanctification", and it goes on to say, "that each of you know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification
and honour", and so forth. So the prime thought immediately is sanctification.
R.W.S. Paul says in verse 1, "For the rest, then, brethren". Does that not seem to characterise Paul's epistles, as if having completed the body of the epistle, he brings in some final thoughts in saying, "For the rest"? This seems to contain a most important part of the epistle. He sometimes brings in great matters as an appendix.
J.T. That is to say, what remains to be said. Of course, there is a second epistle which we are not going to look into, but, as you say, "For the rest" would imply what remains to be said now.
E.A.L. Would verse 10 of the previous chapter help in that, "beseeching exceedingly to the end that we may see your face, and perfect what is lacking in your faith", as if that might have a connection with the beginning of chapter 4? In all the chapters read, belief or faith seems to have a very important place. It is only on the basis of our faith and belief that we can come into these truths you are bringing before us.
J.T. Just so. And the idea is not simply faith in the sense of the profession of Christianity. It is not simply that, but it is "your faith", that which each one of us has, "a measure of faith", faith being the measure of things for a Christian. Without faith it is impossible to please God; whatever we have heard as to doctrine, we must have faith or we cannot please God. Faith is a peculiar thing that God appreciates in His people. And hence here, "if we believe", that is to say, the coming of the Lord is in mind, but faith underlies all that. It can only be for those who have faith. Those who have not faith are awaiting judgment.
A.R. And also, would you say, the coming of the Lord would be for those who are clean? Hold your vessels to honour.
J.T. Exactly. That is the idea of sanctification.
A.R. Sanctification and honour are in contrast to uncleanness, as it says in verse 7, "For God has not called us to uncleanness, but in sanctification".
J.T. Sanctification implies holiness, not simply that we are clean but that we are holy. It is a great thought with God, to be holy. "Be ye holy", He says, "for I am holy". We cannot attach faith to God; faith is not applicable to God, but it is applicable to Christ, however. He is the Author and Completer of faith. Holiness belongs to God. "Be ye holy, for I am holy". Therefore, this first paragraph refers to sanctification, not only cleanness but sanctification; that is to say, one is to be holy.
F.J.F. Does that imply that the vessel is ready and suitable to be changed at any moment?
J.T. Just so. An elect vessel. Paul himself was an elect vessel unto the Lord, to bear His name before kings. So God is very concerned about the vessel, that is to say, what it contains, and then the character of the vessel. It is what you contain or have in you, but character too is in mind.
L.E.S. Does not the present ministry as to the Holy Spirit directly bear on this?
J.T. There is a word here about that. Verse 7 says, "For God has not called us to uncleanness, but in sanctification"; and then verse 8, "He therefore that in this disregards his brother, disregards, not man, but God, who has given also his Holy Spirit to you". The vessel is in mind, but what is in it is the prime thought; that is the Holy Spirit. There cannot be anything greater than that in anybody. There must be the idea of the vessel.
E.A.L. In chapter 1 we have, "having accepted the word in much tribulation with joy of the Holy Spirit". That is the way in which we accept the truth, referring to what has just been said as to the Holy Spirit.
J.T. Yes. "Also in power, and in the Holy Spirit, and in much assurance". So the vessel is of prime importance in view of what is in it. The Holy Spirit is in the assembly, of course, but each person, each believer has the Holy Spirit; that is, if he has really received the Holy Spirit. A person may be born again or at least in some sense a vessel of something in the sense of quickening, but the prime thought is that of a vessel possessing the Holy Spirit, the greatest thing that can attach to us, because it is the presence of God Himself here on earth, in view of His place in the assembly that "God is indeed amongst you".
C.H.H. Would that be consistent with 1 Corinthians 6, "Do ye not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit which is in you, which ye have of God; and ye are not your own? for ye have been bought with a price: glorify now then God in your body", 1 Corinthians 6:19, 20?
J.T. Quite so. Therefore, each vessel here today is of prime importance, that is, not only a believer who is in some sense quickened, but one having faith, a true believer and knowing that he has the Holy Spirit. So in Ephesus the first point made is "Did ye receive the Holy Spirit when ye had believed?" Acts 19:2. They did not know about the Spirit, and that is the question, whether we all know about it, and whether we all have the blessed Spirit of God, and thus that our vessels are pure and sanctified.
Ques. In Ephesians 4 it says, "Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God". Is that individual?
J.T. Yes, but it might be the assembly, too. Because of your relation with other believers, you may grieve the Spirit. You may be all right yourself, but you may affect other believers. We may not honour other believers as we should.
F.H.L. Did the apostle know that there were local conditions requiring this ministry?
J.T. I would think so. I would think that Paul would keep in touch with the assemblies. It was a great matter with him. He had the care of all the assemblies, which is a great matter. So here we have "with all his saints", the idea of the wholeness, the completeness, of the persons implied. The assembly, of course, is the prime thought in the present dispensation because of what it is as a vessel, and how God can use it. Therefore, the importance of each one keeping himself clean and sanctified.
J.L.P. The will of God enters into this matter of sanctification, and in the second chapter of the next letter the divine choice. "God has chosen you from the beginning to salvation in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth". I would like help as to the thought of salvation being linked on with sanctification in the scripture read.
J.T. The second epistle is just to enforce and enlarge what is contained in the first epistle, the first is the prime thought. We are being held in our conversation to this matter of sanctification, to get a grasp of it inwardly and carry it away with us.
W.W.M. In Acts 15 Peter says, "And the heart-knowing God bore them witness, giving them the Holy Spirit as to us also". Faith must precede the Spirit, would you say that?
J.T. That is the idea exactly. The whole dispensation stands thus; it is a dispensation of faith, but then it is not only that, but there are certain characteristics that this epistle peculiarly stresses. What we are engaged with now before coming to the thought of the Lord's coming, is sanctification. The saints should be clear of this world, but especially in this matter of personal relations with others that would defile them peculiarly.
A.B.P. Should there be a measure of sanctification before the Spirit is received? Is that necessary?
J.T. I think the work of God in the soul effects something, but it is not complete without the Spirit, the word sealed is used in regard of the Spirit in Ephesians. We must have the seal, the sealing is by the Spirit. There may be a work of God before that, but it is not complete without the sealing.
F.J.F. Are a believer's children looked on also as sanctified?
J.T. Well, externally, God would look at them not only in themselves but in relation to their parents, because God is reserving His thought as to what He thinks of parents. He attaches much to parents, not only individual persons, but their children. But then they may not all have the Spirit, but God looks at them in relation to their parents. Then the next thing is for parents to bring up their children "in the discipline and admonition of the Lord". The parents have to see to that, but at the same time the person may not have anything beyond what we might call quickening, which is not complete, but something of that kind in a person who believes. If his parent believes, it is more to the point with God that He should refer to the parent as well as to the child, so that the whole household should be saved. Hence the first reference to salvation is that Noah prepared an ark for the saving of his house and that implied, in principle, what God has effected in the gift of the Spirit in this dispensation. There were no gifts in the old dispensation, but there was a work of God with men but no completeness. The law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope does, by which we draw nigh unto God. It must be the better hope, implying the presence of the Spirit.
Rem. The previous remark about parents and children does not apply to the Lord Jesus, "the holy thing".
J.T. In the expression "the holy thing", it is the Babe that is in mind. The word 'thing' would not be used otherwise. The Lord is called a boy afterwards, that is, a grown child, but the word 'thing' is used in Luke only and refers to the Babe condition. It is a very remarkable thing and the word is to Mary, the mother of the Lord. "The holy thing also which shall be born shall be called Son of God". He is not yet called that outwardly, He is going to be called that. Mary heard that from the angel's lips. The angel says remarkable things to Mary in view of the great fact that she was to be the Lord's mother. There was Elizabeth too linked up with her, because she was her kinswoman, the mother of John the baptist, who was the forerunner of the Lord. It is a great matter to think of the mothers of such persons, the mother of John the baptist first and then the mother of Jesus, the greatest honour that could be conferred on anybody in that sense, to be the mother of the Lord Jesus.
J.T. Well, it is a question of state that applies to God. It applies to God first; God is holy. "Be ye holy, for I am holy". It is therefore effected by the power of the Spirit, the Spirit viewed as oil. The word 'anointed' implies that the person is indwelt by the Spirit. The word 'oil' alludes to the Spirit as rendering us holy. Oil is used as a figure to convey an idea, that of man being dignified by receiving the presence of the Holy Spirit on the ground of the redemptive work of the Lord Jesus Christ.
M.O. Does John in his epistle link the truth of sanctification with the Lord's coming when he says, "And every one that has this hope in him purifies himself, even as he is pure"?
J.T. Just so; there is a strong link between these epistles and the epistles of John. They are closely associated. Of course, John was an apostle too, and
Paul was the great apostle of the assembly. We learn almost everything from Paul as to the assembly because he had that ministry expressly.
A.B.P. Having the hope in him would be by the Spirit; the thought of 'in him' links on with the power of the Spirit to make that hope living?
J.T. Just so, and having that hope we know that we have the Spirit of God.
A.A.T. Are sanctification and holiness the same?
J.T. Very much the same, sanctification refers to holiness, but the word 'holy' is full and complete because it applies to God Himself. You could not have it more complete, because it applies to God. God is holy. "Be ye holy, for I am holy".
A.B. Does the footnote to sanctification in verse 7 help? It is 'holiness', as in Romans 6:19, 22. But 'sanctification' is used in English for the result as well as the activity which produces it.
J.T. Very good, therefore the importance of these notes in the New (Darby) Translation.
Ques. May I ask a simple question for those of us who are young? How do we get holy? We used to sing a hymn, 'Take time to be holy, speak oft with thy Lord'. Would we get more holy if we had more communion with the Holy Spirit?
J.T. Quite so, the gospels are the basis of the New Testament, but the epistles are written for a special reason to bring out the completeness of the truth of Christianity. The gospels have the truth of Christianity in mind, but the epistles have the details that are needed to fill it out. Of course, the great thought of the gospels is to narrate the coming here of the Lord Jesus Christ, a divine Person, born of a woman, that is to say, born of Mary.
R.W.S. Verse 4 says, "that each of you know how to possess his own vessel". It is a word we use commonly, the 'know-how'. All of us, young and old, should know how.
J.T. Know how to possess, that is the idea. "That each of you know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honour". That is the point we are stressing and that the Spirit of God is stressing in the beginning of this chapter, but we want to go on to the coming of the Lord because that is the main thing before us in this reading.
A.R. Holiness would precede the rapture.
J.T. What we are dealing with now is to lead up to the idea of the rapture, the coming of the Lord.
W.W.M. 2 Corinthians 7:1 reads, "Having therefore these promises, beloved, let us purify ourselves from every pollution of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in God's fear". That comes in after speaking of coming out and being separate, being here for God.
J.T. Quite so. I believe this epistle largely links on with the Corinthian epistles. We have promises in chapter 7, and we are called upon to lay hold of them. These promises refer to the previous chapter.
Ques. In John 17 the Lord says, "I sanctify myself for them, that they also may be sanctified by truth". Is that a different form of sanctification?
J.T. You mean setting apart; it is not a question of the state of the Lord Jesus at all. It is a question of the attitude He has taken up personally, and it is in relation to them, setting Himself apart in view of their being set apart.
J.W. This matter of the 'know-how' seems to stand related to the divine authority, the will of God, linking with what you said in an earlier reading as to God as Creator and the recognition of His authority.
F.W. Is the reason for the lack of sanctification because we are not actually looking for the Lord's return? Paul spoke of ardently desiring.
J.T. That is just what is in mind in this reading, that sanctification precedes the matter of the coming
of the Lord. It is important that the brethren should have the thought of sanctification if we are really desiring to go to be with the Lord, to be translated, because it is imminent now as we believe fully. The state that is suitable for it is a great point in the early part of the chapter. Someone has enquired what is sanctification, what is holiness? It is the effect of the Spirit received on the ground of the death of Christ. It is the effect of the Spirit's operations, that is the meaning of it, that it is holiness in that sense to be made like God Himself. God is holy, therefore we are to be holy. If we are to join the Lord in the translation, we should be suitable. We do not just go up to be with the Lord as we are here today, because there are certain conditions in us that have to be discarded and forever set aside. We shall not need them eternally.
H.E.E. We might go back to the first verse, "Ye ought to walk and please God". John looked upon Jesus as He walked. What a walk that was!
J.T. He was affected, quite so, and said, "Behold the Lamb of God". And the disciples were affected by that and they followed Jesus. So that is the idea here, that we are to be in a suitable state to be translated, because the Lord is concerned about that. He is coming to take us up; "The Lord Himself ... shall descend". He is going to do that, so that He is looking for us now to be sanctified, that is to say, that our vessels are to be holy. That is the first part of the chapter.
G.D. Would there be a certain urgency suggested in the last chapter of Revelation? "The time is near ... he that is holy, let him be sanctified still. Behold, I come quickly". Would there be urgency in that in connection with sanctification?
J.T. In that chapter it says "the Spirit and the bride say, Come". The Spirit of God is involved in that word "say, Come". The Spirit is saying it too,
as well as the bride. So it is well said that what we say should be said well.
J.T. Just so, he is the seventh from Adam; that is, he has gone through the whole course. The word 'seven' implies that he had gone through the whole course of instruction, from Adam to his own time. He prophesied of the Lord coming with His holy myriads. So Enoch had the testimony before he was translated that he pleased God. We are looking for translation now and this chapter deals with it. Therefore, if we expect to be translated, let us please God in what we are doing.
Ques. Before you go on, would you say something about honouring the body? It says "his own vessel in sanctification and honour". God is not going to leave our bodies here when the Lord comes; He is going to translate our bodies. Should we not value our bodies in the way that God values them? Does the word 'honour' bring that out?
J.T. Quite so. We should especially keep in mind that the Lord's coming is mentioned in every chapter in this epistle. Therefore, we can see the Spirit of God makes a great point of it, and we ought to make a great point of it. So the idea in this part of the chapter is sanctification in view of translation. We should be cleansed but sanctified as well, which has reference to God, that God is holy and we should be holy. The Lord is going to come for us and take us up, but it says in verse 14 that God will bring the saints with him. God Himself will do it, so it is a question of God, to be holy as God is holy. So the word is, "Now concerning brotherly love ye have no need that we should write to you, for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another". Then in verse 13, "But we do not wish you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them that are fallen asleep", because now it is a question of the coming
of the Lord. God is going to bring the sleeping ones with Him; He will not leave them behind. It is not simply those who are alive and remain but those who have fallen asleep from Abel down. We will all be transferred to be with the Lord.
A.R. What you are saying now is that God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep, and the Lord Himself shall descend and then you referred to the fact that the Spirit of God quickens our mortal bodies; the Godhead will all bear on the rapture.
J.T. Quite so, so that God brings the sleeping saints with Him. He will not leave them here on the earth, even if they are dead for a thousand years. God will bring them with Him. Then we are taught how. It is the Lord Jesus, for God has given everything to be in His hand, even the matter of translation is to be in the Lord's hands. He is to do it; so the word 'how' to which attention has been drawn, how the thing is to be done, is a great matter.
A.B.P. In that connection I was struck with the footnote in John's epistle. "And every one that has this hope in him purifies himself, even as he is pure". The footnote says 'Him who is to be manifested'.
J.T. When He is manifested; now we are children of God, but when He is manifested we shall be like Him. This is how it is to happen.
A.B.P. Purification is as having the manifestation in view.
Ques. Would the knowing how be knowing how to use the Spirit? We put to death the deeds of the body by the Spirit.
C.H.H. I think you have said that the parenthesis from verse 15 to the end of the chapter was fresh light for the apostle that he himself had not received before.
J.T. It is a new thing. The Lord's coming was in mind throughout Scripture, but this is one of the most distinctive thoughts that we have in all the Bible as to the Lord's coming, and how it comes about, what happens. It says "if we believe", again we come back to the idea of believing, of faith. "For if we believe that Jesus has died and has risen again, so also God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep through Jesus". Then the remaining part of the chapter is to unfold to us what will happen. Thus the great stress in the early part of the chapter as to sanctification and honour, but sanctification especially.
R.W.S. Is the allusion to God, in verse 14, to the Father?
J.T. It is the ordinary sense of the name God. In 1 Corinthians 8, we are told "to us there is one God", and then we are told, that He is the Father, and "one Lord, Jesus Christ". Here in verse 14 "if we believe that Jesus has died and has risen again, so also God will bring with him", that is God in the ordinary sense of the word God, including the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Either one of Them can be called God, but here it is God in the full sense without any qualification.
Ques. In verse 16 there is the designation of a person, is there not? "The Lord himself", is that the Operator?
J.T. Just so, and then we have the Father Himself, too, but Christ is the Operator here. It says, "for the Lord himself, with an assembling shout", notice the word 'assembling', the church is in mind, "with archangel's voice". Why should the archangel be mentioned? Well, it is; it is a special matter. "With archangel's voice and with trump of God", it is God Himself in the voice, "shall descend from heaven; and the dead in Christ shall rise first". That is part of the operation.
F.J.F. Do you think it is a military allusion?
J.T. I think it is. It is mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15 and is a military allusion. The "assembling shout" here is a military allusion, but 1 Corinthians 15 is more so. There is more in 1 Corinthians 15 as to that point than there is here.
Ques. Would being caught up together in the clouds and meeting the Lord in the air be simultaneous?
J.T. Let us see how it reads. "Then we, the living who remain, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall be always with the Lord". Meeting the Lord in the air is the final thought. We meet each other first, that is, the whole idea is caught up together, the whole assembly, as it were, is caught up.
R.W.S. Verse 16 says "and the dead in Christ shall rise first". Does the Lord touch the dead first and then does the Spirit in us who are living change us? According to Romans 8:11 the Holy Spirit has to do with the living. You have said possibly the brethren do not fully understand this yet, as to the action of the Spirit in quickening our mortal bodies.
J.T. I am referring to that, "for the Lord himself, with an assembling shout, with archangel's voice and with trump of God, shall descend from heaven; and the dead in Christ shall rise first; then we, the living who remain, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air". I would assume that the whole physical condition that we arc in now is involved; we meet the Lord in the air; not beyond the air. There is a certain limit to the depth of the air, and we are to meet the Lord in that place. So He comes down part of the way, I would say. We all go up together, and we have met together in the air, but we are going to meet the Lord in the air. The Lord is clearly coming
down to meet us and then we shall be forever with the Lord. Our comfort is in the words that are mentioned "so encourage one another with these words". The general position is that we are here now, and what is behind us is all the dead in Christ. They will be raised, and as regards the living the action of the change is by the Spirit, that is what I understand. Romans 8:11 says that the Spirit is the power of change. After we are changed, we are caught up together with those who have been raised to meet the Lord in the air "and thus we shall be always with the Lord".
E.A.L. Does it mean where it says "and with trump of God, shall descend from heaven; and the dead in Christ shall rise first", that the dead get their heavenly personalities when the Lord comes down from heaven and raises them? I think you have said that the dead go to heaven, not when they die, but when they are raised.
J.T. Quite so, the point stressed now is how the thing happens, that is to say, the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven, but the first thought mentioned is that God is in the thing, so that the great thought of the divine personality is God, and He is involved in this. Then the trump is to be heard; it is "trump of God", so that 'to know how' is of great importance to keep in our minds, to know how the thing happens; it is a wonderful happening. The Spirit of God is pleased to give those facts to show what does happen.
Rem. You said elsewhere that the Holy Spirit has to do with the living and the Lord with the dead.
J.T. That is exactly what I believe and what Scripture teaches. The Spirit has to do with the living because of His dwelling in us. But then 1 Corinthians 15:51 shows that all are to be changed. The dead are raised by the Lord, but as regards the living, if the happening were to take place
today, the Spirit would do it. The Spirit of God would change us. The Spirit's work is the first work in mind, but the Lord descends. It does not say the Spirit descends; He is already here. The sound of God's voice is to be heard by the trumpet, the "trump of God". So it is well to keep all these items in mind so that when we talk about them to one another we know what we are saying and we know what words to use. What hope arises in our hearts according to it!
F.N.W. The other day you used the word 'detail' as to the quickening of our mortal bodies by the Spirit. Would that add to us in a detailed way now in a moral sense? We have been speaking of holiness. Does He not help us now in reaching a state of holiness in a detailed way, but presently He is going to quicken our mortal bodies? He has to do that work in a detailed way then, does He not?
J.T. Quite, our mortal bodies, that is what we are in just now. They have to be changed. Your clothes will have to go. The Lord will do all that but the Spirit will be the agent of it "on account of his Spirit which dwells in you", Romans 8:11. That is to say, He will do all the details, to speak reverently. The Holy Spirit will undertake graciously to deal with all matters relative to how we are to go up. The Lord Himself is coming down to see us; "thus we shall be always with the Lord". The Lord will do the reception, but the Spirit will do the changing, what is needed to fit us for the change.
J.T.Jr. "The Spirit and the bride say, Come" would be in line with that. The thing would be in the saying, the intelligence would be in it.
A.B. It is very beautiful to think of the Lord descending with an assembling shout, and the Spirit in relation to the living quickening the mortal bodies, co-ordinating with the Lord.
J.T. Quite so. All that implies that the assembly is in mind, the whole of it is in mind, that we all go up together. The Spirit has to do with that, but the Lord Himself does the raising of the dead. He can take them out of their graves. He has been dead Himself -- wonderful -- we speak reverently, the Lord has been dead Himself, three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. He knows it all experimentally, and then the Spirit will do all the balance of the work, because there will have to be a preparation for us to go into heaven where we are to be eternally. We will not need anything that we are wearing now; it will all be dealt with in the power of the Spirit. Now let the brethren just dwell on the fact that the action of the Spirit will touch us, and He is here today to serve us, to help us in our minds. But presently He will do other things; that is to say, what refers to our bodies. The Spirit will do that. We will be changed "on account of his Spirit which dwells in you". The Spirit will do great things and what He will do finally is to quicken us, to quicken our mortal bodies.
Ques. Who is going to decide when this moment arrives, the Father, the Son, or the Spirit? I am thinking of the Scripture, "But of that day or of that hour no one knows ... but the Father". Is the Father in charge of it all; is He determining the time?
J.T. Well, it is a question of the Scripture that links up the Father with all we are saying. I would think all the divine Persons are involved, the matter is so great and glorious. They will all be in this great transaction.
N.B. Would Acts 1:7 help? "It is not yours to know times or seasons, which the Father has placed in his own authority".
Rem. That is the trend of the scripture I had in mind, but I think the scripture I quoted has to
do with the appearing more than the translation. But this last scripture quoted is better, and seems as if the Father is in charge of determining the exact time.
W.W.M. The scripture referred to is in Mark 13:31, 32, "The heaven and the earth shall pass away, but my words shall in no wise pass away. But of that day or of that hour no one knows, neither the angels who are in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father".
Rem. I thought that scripture might refer to the appearing or the ending of things, whereas we are considering the translation, the rapture. It seems as if the time is determined by the Father according to Mark 13. Does the Father also determine the time in connection with the rapture?
J.T. Well, you might say that the operations in relation to the rapture are all simultaneous. It says "in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye". God does that, and that is the reason God is mentioned first here, "God will bring with him". God will determine the time. Of course, the divine Persons would be all in it. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit will be all in this great transaction.
M.O. What you have said in relation to the Holy Spirit should help us to understand the glorious completion of His service to the assembly, should it not? That would be His last service to us while we are on earth, would it not?
J.T. The Spirit will always remain with us: He will never leave us, even in heaven. The Spirit will go with us because there is to be service there. God will be glorified there in His saints, glorified in all that believe. The glorification will be in the power of the Spirit.
F.J.F. Mr. Darby's hymn says, 'By the Spirit all pervading' (Hymn 14).
J.T. Just so, that is just the word.
J.C. "And I will beg the Father, and he will give you another Comforter, that he may be with you for ever, the Spirit of truth", John 14:16.
J.T. Yes, He will be with us for ever.
F.J.F. Is it right to think that the Holy Spirit will revive the whole church before the Lord's coming, so that we will all say, Come?
J.T. Well, very likely, but we are saying it now. "The Spirit and the bride say, Come", not that they will say it, but they are doing it now.
F.J.F. And the others who are not in fellowship with us?
J.T. It is not a question of fellowship; it is a question of going to heaven. All the divine Persons are in it. They are all in the transaction. It is going to be wonderful. Think of the wonderfulness of it! Every true Christian will be involved in it whether he is in fellowship or not.
R.J.C. What is the distinction between the clouds and the air?
J.T. They are just agencies that God has. It is said that the air is about forty-five miles deep, so the air is in mind. The higher we go the more attenuated it is. The Lord will come into it. It is wonderful that we get all these details in this wonderful chapter.
F.J.F. So the Lord will come very near the earth.
J.T. It will be as near at least as the depth of the air. It is said to be about forty-five miles high and the Lord will come into that, so that it will be a near matter.
Ques. How do you view the Old Testament saints in relation to the assembly?
J.T. That is a question which I am not prepared to answer, but it looks to me as if 1 Corinthians 15 would deal with the whole matter. This chapter seems to be more limited, more in connection with Paul's own personal feelings about the saints in
Thessalonica. It seems to be a matter of Paul himself and his own thoughts given to him by the Spirit. 1 Corinthians 15 deals with the whole matter.
T.W. You used the express word 'assembly' here.
J.T. I think perhaps the Lord's movements relate to the assembly only, but I would not be sure about that, because I think He is concerned about all of His own. He has secured them all.
Ques. Will you differentiate between this remark, "fallen asleep through Jesus", and "the dead in Christ"?
J.T. There is not much change, only the "dead in Christ" is more official.
Rem. Reference has been made to the Old Testament saints. I wondered whether they had something to do with the first-fruits.
J.T. Well, I think they have. I think the Lord will change them all; He has died for us all and we will all go up with Him. I believe that fully. Then there are the millennial saints too. We have to consider that. There is so much to be said about it. The book of Revelation has much in relation to this matter as to the translation and our going to be with the Lord for ever.
Ques. Is it your thought that this epistle would fit in with what you have already said in relation to John's epistle? "I write to you, little children, because ye have known the Father". It is somewhat limited to young persons who knew the truth in a limited way.
J.T. I would say there is a good deal in that, but it is not absolute. We could not exclude from the Thessalonian saints men and women. We know that in the millennium there may be old men and old women, so that we have to consider all that when we are dealing with this great subject. We have begun with the idea that it deals with young saints, that is not simply in age, but persons who are young
in the faith. It is a question of faith, and if we have faith we are included. We are to regard them as young because they are not long in Christianity, only recently converted but they might be old people. In the millennium there will be old men and old women walking on the streets showing what a change there will be, but still they will be as we are here today, in flesh and blood. We will not be in flesh and blood; we shall be like the Lord. "We shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is".
J.H.E. This wonderful ministry to young believers, resulting in our looking for the Lord momentarily, will help us to keep short accounts.
1 Thessalonians 5:1 - 28
J.T. We have already remarked on the subject of the Lord's coming as seen in this epistle, that it is to be divided into two parts, first, the Lord Himself presented by the apostle and a direct word on the point. "For this we say to you in the word of the Lord, that we, the living, who remain to the coming of the Lord, are in no way to anticipate those who have fallen asleep; for the Lord himself, with an assembling shout, with archangel's voice and with trump of God, shall descend from heaven; and the dead in Christ shall rise first; then we, the living who remain, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air". Now this is the first great part or feature of what is called the Lord's coming. The second feature is the fifth chapter. So the word is "concerning the times and the seasons", that is to say, the public coming of the Lord Jesus enters into the idea of times and seasons. It goes on, "brethren, ye have no need that ye should be written to, for ye know perfectly well yourselves, that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief by night". Now this is called "the day of the Lord". It is implied in the expression "the coming of the Lord" but the "day of the Lord" is a longer period. It would appear in the book of Revelation that it is to be a thousand years, but any way, it is spoken of here as "the day of the Lord". Our reading this afternoon will cover this latter phase of the so-called Lord's coming. In the first phase in the fourth chapter it is the Lord coming for His people, and we are to be with Him forever. "The day of the Lord" involves more; it involves a certain period which may be regarded as the millennium, the period of a thousand years. It is a day in which
God would show what He can do even in the present circumstances physically. The day will show what God can do for men in spite of conditions. So we have here, "But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that ye should be written to, for ye know perfectly well yourselves, that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief by night". The idea is a day of action; the word 'day' includes a long period in which God will show what He can do in the present world as it is. It is for us to be ready for it because His coming will be public, and we will come out with Him. We ought to be in every way in accord just as He comes to take us. That is the idea of this book, these chapters especially.
R.W.S. Is this day ushered in by judgment?
J.T. That is the way it is presented. He says, "that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief by night". That is, it comes secretly, as it were, without announcement. We can only arrive at the thought by what we have learned and what we learn from other parts of Scripture. It comes secretly; it is not to be announced in any public way. It is to come as a thief in the night. He does not tell us when He is coming, but it is "as a thief by night". He comes suddenly.
J.K. Does the day of the Lord bring in the thought of authority?
J.T. I think so. It is the day in which people will have right-of-way everywhere. The world will not be governed as it is by certain races or nations. The Lord will do it. He will do it publicly. Things will be right for a thousand years, and we should read Revelation 19 to get it clear in our minds. The fifth chapter of 1 Thessalonians has to do with the second part, as we may properly call it, of the coming of the Lord, that is, the public coming and the consequences of it. The Lord Himself will take things
in hand and His titles, as given to us in Revelation 19, show that He is to be in charge publicly. Everything is to be done under His control. Other scriptures, of course, speak of what will transpire during the thousand years, in fact, the Bible is full of it. It will be a wonderful time, a time in which God will show what He can do with the world as it is. After this, there will be a new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness shall dwell, not simply be there, but dwell. That will be the eternal condition. So this chapter contemplates what we are speaking of; it contemplates the Lord coming to take charge of things. Coming like a thief in the night indicates that He comes secretly, but then the public position will be seen presently and it is described in Revelation 19.
A.B. In relation to the Lord descending and the assembly being caught up to be with the Lord, is it that there is now to be no hindrance in relation to the expanse; that is, the expanse is claimed for God as in Revelation 12 where Michael and his angels fight in relation to the casting out from heaven of the devil and his angels? But in chapter 5 it is more the clearing of the earth in relation to the establishing of righteousness.
J.T. Well, I think that is a fairly good setting out of the facts. It is taken up in an orderly way in chapter 5 of 1 Thessalonians.
A.R. Why does Paul speak to these saints and say, "But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day should overtake you as a thief"'? Why does he speak to them in that way'?
J.T. That would mean that they had been instructed as to prophecy, although they were young Christians. Evidently the apostle Paul took occasion to instruct young believers as to prophecy. The beginning of the great revival of the truth in the last hundred and thirty years was largely occupied
with prophecy. In verse 4 we read, "But ye, brethren, are not in darkness". We might say that of ourselves today, that we are not in darkness. Every brother here knows something about the prophecies of Scripture. So it says, "Ye ... are not in darkness, that the day should overtake you as a thief: for all ye are sons of light". That is a remarkable expression, "sons of light", meaning that we have light, not only information, but that we have light. We are luminous.
A.R. Would it help us to understand the books of Isaiah and Daniel?
F.J.F. Is what you have been speaking of at the end of the fourth chapter the first part of the first resurrection?
J.T. I think so. The whole period from verse 13 has this in mind, what is to come in in the future, the prophecies that are found in Scripture in regard to the future. The fourth chapter deals with ourselves being translated to heaven which is a great matter too, the greatest of all events, because the saints, the assembly, and the saints perhaps of the Old Testament too, those that belong to the Lord will all be translated to heaven. The birth and death of the Lord Jesus imply the greatest things, the greatest events that ever happened on the earth. But the coming of the Lord is a great event too, perhaps second to that -- the Lord's death first, and then His coming in glory described in Revelation 19, a wonderful scene.
J.W.D. "When they may say, Peace and safety". Does that give us any light as to what will be before men between the two comings? I thought it was a period which will be deluged with judgment and misery.
J.T. I think it refers to the present time, to be simple, what is current at the present time among
the nations would indicate that they are going to do great things. Great things are going to happen in this and other countries, and the world is going to be wonderfully improved, and they will say, "Peace and safety". Steps will be taken to prevent war, but we have to go by the prophecies of Scripture if we are to know what is to happen in the future. We have to read the Scriptures and learn from them. "When they may say, Peace and safety, then sudden destruction comes upon them". It is a terrible thing, but Revelation 19 gives a full description of the wonderful time that is coming, involved in what we are saying now, that the Lord comes publicly to set things right in this world.
R.W.S. Will the millennium be universal over the whole earth or just a part of the earth?
J.T. I think the whole earth will be included. It is God's earth. "The earth is Jehovah's and the fulness thereof", Psalm 24:1. "God is the King of all the earth", Psalm 47:7. He has claimed the earth for Christ. He is going to give it to Him.
R.W.S. I thought you had intimated earlier that the western world had contributed the assembly, and that the millennium bore more upon the eastern world, India and China and those parts.
J.T. The book of Acts contemplates what is done in an evangelical sense, so God has "appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained" (Acts 17:13, A.V.). "A day" is the same expression as we have here. That is the great event that is coming, and that will include India, China and every part of the earth, because it is God's earth. It indicates His wonderful bounty to men. The earth yields what man needs in abundance. Take this country as an illustration. See the abundance that it yields; perhaps more than any other country, this country is abundant in its yield for the good of man. God has appointed a
day to rule the world by Christ. He is not ruling it now, although He is ruling it indirectly, but the day is coming when the Lord Jesus will rule. God has appointed that, that He should judge the world. "He will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead", Acts 17:31 (A.V.). That is the assurance that we have, that God has raised Him from the dead. Our Lord Jesus will come out in public to rule the world, not only to judge, the word 'judge' means to rule, but everything is done that is necessary. He will simply deal with men in punishment, but will rule the world in righteousness.
T.W. Psalm 2 says, "Ask of me, and I will give thee nations for an inheritance, and for thy possession the ends of the earth".
A.A.T. Revelation 19:10, "For the spirit of prophecy is the testimony of Jesus". Does that apply to the period we are speaking of?
J.T. It applies to the present time. It is what He is. "The spirit of prophecy is" not will be "the testimony of Jesus".
F.J.F. Does the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ involve that a new world has begun already for faith?
J.T. The resurrection of Christ has already happened and that goes forward to what we arc saying now. He has raised Him from the dead according to the verse already quoted from Acts, and the bearing of all that will be seen in the future and will come in after what we are speaking of now. Of course, Christ is already raised, He has been raised by God, and that is the testimony that goes forward to the prophetic world.
F.J.F. My point was, do we get the advantages by faith of that great day, the millennial day?
J.T. Quite so, so that you get in the epistle to the Hebrews, "the world to come, whereof we speak", that is the world of prophecy. It is already existing for faith in that the Man whom God has ordained has been raised from the dead, the Lord Jesus. He is not ruling yet, but He is going to rule and the bearing of His resurrection will be there.
F.J.F. I would like to get clear for ourselves, are we not already in the joy of that great day?
J.T. We are assembly people and have the light of everything, the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ; we all have light in our souls.
C.H.H. It says in this chapter, "Ye are sons of light".
J.T. That is exactly the point, that we are sons of light. Those who form the assembly are that because they are illuminated from the face of Jesus.
A.R. We can enjoy the day of the Lord here now.
J.T. Because we have light about everything.
F.J.F. Is that why, when Paul spoke in Thessalonica, they said, "These that have turned the world upside down" because they spoke of another king, Jesus?
J.T. Just so, they had power to do it. They could not have turned the world upside down without power. The apostles did it, and it was a time of conversion of men. They turned the world upside down, but they organised the assembly.
F.J.F. And they overthrew idolatry in Europe and it has never raised its head since.
J.T. Just so, and it will be done in Asia too. Others will take our place to do that in Asia. They will turn the world upside down there too, so that the darkness will flee and the light will shine everywhere.
F.H.L. Would Philippians 1, "Jesus Christ's day" be an expression understood in the assembly in contrast to the day of the Lord?
J.T. Just so, although I should not like to separate anything in that sense because it is the Lord Himself that is in mind. The day of the Lord is the day of the Lord Jesus, the same as Jesus Christ, of course.
F.H.L. When would that be -- "Jesus Christ's day"?
J.T. "Jesus Christ's day" is the Lord's day, that is, the day of the Lord. Another thing, the Lord's day is the first day of the week too, meaning that it is the day in which He has power and we are to recognise it. We do not do anything except what has to be done, because it is the Lord's day.
R.W.S. Does the day of God look on to the eternal day?
J.T. That is the eternal day, God's day, because of the greatness of the result. It is what God will be in the millennium, the day of God, what He will do in His mercy for men. He is doing good now, but He will do far more in that day. It will be a wonderful time. I would say that machinery and all that will be discarded. I may be saying too much, but my impression is that machinery and all that sort of thing that men have devised to make things better and make a show will all be destroyed. God can do without it, although of course, it may be His own creature, but I believe that God will show what He can do with the things He has actually brought in here Himself on the earth. These things will be usable and enough for all that He wants to show.
A.R. Without automobiles or aeroplanes, do you think?
J.T. Do not make too much of it; we cannot name the things because we will never stop if we do that. But the general idea is to show that in the creation God has put all that is necessary for men, and therefore it says, "He formed it to be inhabited", Isaiah 45:18. That is to say, men are inhabitants
of God's earth, and God has put into it all that is necessary for the inhabitants. It has been made to be inhabited.
M.O. Does the day of the Lord make way for the day of God?
J.T. That may be so, but I should not like to make that too distinct because the day of the Lord is the day of God. The Lord is God. The divine Persons are three and any One of Them can be called God. So that we cannot distinguish in that sense as to divine Persons because any One of Them is God and may be called God too. We have to be specific and Scripture is usually specific in naming divine Persons so that you know what Person is speaking.
M.O. I was thinking of the work of subjection being completed by Christ and then the day of God being ushered in.
J.T. Well, that is quite right, only be careful that you do not becloud divine Persons. They are all divine and all equal. We cannot say that One is greater than the Other. We must be careful about that, not to convey that One is greater than the Other, only that in the economy, as we call it, They are; the Father is greater than the Son. I say this only to keep the thing clear, that the economy is different from the past eternal conditions.
D.P. Will the Lord be vindicated publicly in His day against all the charges that were made against Him?
J.T. Undoubtedly He will, everything will be cleared up in that day, at the same time I would say that the day of God must be the greatest day We can have nothing greater than God. That is a thing to keep clearly in our minds. We can have nothing or no one greater than God.
R.S. In 2 Peter 3 it says, "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief, in which the heavens will
pass away with a rushing noise, and the elements, burning with heat, shall be dissolved, and the earth and the works in it shall be burnt up". Then verse 12 speaks of "hastening the coming of the day of God, by reason of which the heavens, being on fire, shall be dissolved". It seems as if they are similar.
J.T. They are. Peter runs on with Paul because in the same epistle he says "our beloved brother Paul"; there is no difference between them, no feeling of rivalry between them at all. There is absolute clarity between them. We are now dealing with this fifth chapter of 1 Thessalonians and we want to see how it bears out what has been said. It is not the coming of the Lord for us; it is the coming of the Lord universally, and Revelation 19 gives a full description of it. The point of these meetings is that the saints may have their minds clear and carry away something that will stand by them in regard to the truth, in regard of what we call the prophetic map, the map that God has ordained to set out His thoughts.
L.E.S. In the book of Daniel, chapter 7, we have the incoming of the Son of man with the clouds. It says "there came with the clouds of heaven one like a son of man, and he came up even to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed". That would have this in mind, would it not?
J.T. It is very important because Daniel is the particular prophet that opens up the prophetic map, as we call it, of the earth. Daniel has a great part in that.
Ques. I was going to ask about the verse already quoted from 2 Peter 3, "The day of the Lord will
come as a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a rushing noise". Does that not seem to apply after the millennium, the elements being dissolved and the earth and the works in it burnt up?
J.T. The eternal state is in mind, I would say. Peter depicts the eternal conditions that God is going to bring out, the day of God.
Rem. He carries the day of the Lord right on as ushering in the eternal day.
A.B.P. Do you distinguish the day of tribulation from the millennium or is it the beginning of the millennium? I was thinking of what we speak of as the period of the great tribulation for three and a half years, or the period that it may be, is that before the millennium?
J.T. Surely, it is before. What God will do before, leading up to the cleansing of the earth.
A.B.P. Is what we are speaking of included in that, that period of tribulation rather than the peaceful conditions of the millennium?
J.T. Quite so, the tribulation. The Lord has made promises about it. The Lord says to the assembly in Philadelphia, "I also will keep thee out of the hour of trial, which is about to come upon the whole habitable world, to try them that dwell upon the earth", Revelation 3:10. That is, the earth dwellers are in mind. They have to be dealt with in judgment by God. He wants heaven dwellers now, and they are content to stay on the earth.
D.P. Will there be any earth in the millennium?
J.T. I think there will. I think it will be the earth as we have it now, even the sea, I suppose, will be there, but in the eternal state there shall be no more sea.
J.R.H.Jr. Do the words, "ye know perfectly well" indicate how much the Spirit has helped the saints,
so that our knowledge has this character, knowing perfectly well?
J.T. Paul had been among these young Christians in Thessalonica, and they were converted. It is said these are the first two epistles he wrote. The indication is that they must have learned a great deal from Paul. He did not leave them without a knowledge of the prophetic world that God is bringing in.
C.H.H. Revelation 19:16 says, "And he has upon his garment, and upon his thigh, a name written, King of kings, and Lord of lords". I was wondering if that furnished a basis for the doxology of Paul in 1 Timothy 6:13 - 16, which says, "I enjoin thee before God who preserves all things in life, and Christ Jesus who witnessed before Pontius Pilate the good confession, that thou keep the commandment spotless, irreproachable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ; which in its own time the blessed and only Ruler shall show, the King of those that reign, and Lord of those that exercise lordship; who only has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen, nor is able to see; to whom be honour and eternal might. Amen". Would the consciousness of this produce a worshipful spirit?
J.T. Quite so, and that passage in Timothy coincides with what we are reading, not that Scripture exactly repeats itself, but there are passages that go together. The Lord Jesus is in mind, the power is in the thigh. Man's power is in his thigh if it is a question of actual power. That is what I was saying earlier about the machinery that men have made that I doubt if God will use it. The Lord will have power enough in His hands for everything that is needed in the coming world.
Rem. I would like to mention what Mr. Stoney said about Revelation 22:16. "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify these things to you in the
assemblies. I am the root and offspring of David, the bright and morning star". He pointed out that only those would be ready to wait for the Lord as the bright and morning star who are in the good of recognising Him as the root and offspring of David in His divine and royal rights in regard to this earth.
J.T. Just so, the root is Deity, the Lord's deity, and the offspring is His manhood. That is what appeals now, that we have the Lord among us as Man, but He remains God nevertheless.
R.W.S. How do you understand verse 10? "Who has died for us, that whether we may be watching or sleep, we may live together with him". How do you understand the last clause?
J.T. That is one of the encouragements that are especially to be with us, so that the Lord died for us, that whether we may be watching, or whether we die in the meantime, we are to "live together with him", not only to live, but "live together", which is a lovely thought for Christians, to "live together with him". That is future. If we enter into it now, it would be a question of spiritual power, that is, the Holy Spirit being here always available to help us, to do things for us.
A.B. Is that why Paul says in writing to Timothy, "I am already being poured out", but then he further says, "Henceforth the crown of righteousness is laid up for me, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will render to me in that day; but not only to me, but also to all who love his appearing"?
J.T. That is what we are dealing with too. In the millennium all that will come to pass. It is a wonderful time ahead of us, so that we should never be droopy or disconcerted, because of the wonderful time that is ahead of us, but also because of the wonderful time that is here. The Spirit of God is here on earth to take charge of the saints, and Christ
is in heaven to do the same as a Priest. The Lord is doing everything in heaven that is needed to be done. The Spirit is doing everything on earth that is needed to be done. So it is a wonderful time even now.
J.L.P. Do we anticipate the day of the Lord each week as we come up to the Supper? Would it be right to say that? I was thinking of affording the Lord His rights.
J.T. Instead of saying the day of the Lord I would say the Lord's day, which is one of the terms applying to the first day of the week. John the evangelist who wrote the book of Revelation says, "I became in the Spirit on the Lord's day". That is what happened on the Lord's day, not in the future, but on the Lord's day now. So we can realise what His day here is because He comes in among us on the first day of the week. It is His own day that He can do as He likes, as it were, and we enjoy having Him with us. I hope everyone understands what I am trying to say. So we have the Spirit of God in us to do this and the Scriptures in our hands so that we should be understood in what we are saying.
W.W.M. It says in our chapter "ye know perfectly well", and then it says, "Ye are sons of light and sons of day". That is what we are now.
J.T. Just so. So that the light is effective in us already because of the Spirit being here. He is God Himself; wonderful to think that it is so! God Himself is amongst us.
Ques. Would you say a word about Hebrews 9:28, "thus the Christ also, having been once offered to bear the sins of many, shall appear to those that look for him the second time without sin for salvation". "Those that look for him the second time" would that be the remnant when they look
for the appearing of the Lord at the beginning of the millennium or would this refer to the rapture?
J.T. It refers to us. This book is written for us by Paul, undoubtedly. It is written for the assembly.
Rem. We thought it applied to the rapture.
J.T. So it does. If we love the Lord, we are looking for Him.
Ques. You told us in New York that some who have not the Spirit will get the Spirit in a moment before His coming; is that right?
J.T. You cannot limit God in any way. God can do a great deal in a moment. In a twinkling of an eye He can do things. So that there will be some perhaps at the time of His coming who do not have the Spirit, but He will take care of that I am sure. It belongs to our period; it is the period of the Spirit. We might call it the day of the Spirit and that would be right too, because it is the day of the assembly in which the Spirit dwells. He is here in the assembly.
F.N.W. Are we to be, therefore, as those who have heard the midnight cry, "Behold, the bridegroom", and to see that we have the oil?
J.T. I think so. That is Matthew, the assembly gospel.
F.J.F. When the Lord comes, will we come with Him?
J.T. Well, when it says, "God will bring with him" that means, we may say, the Lord will bring us with Him. It is the same as God bringing us with Him. Before that He comes for us to take us up and then we come with Him. He will bring the church with Him; He will be espoused publicly.
F.J.F. The heavenly city coming down.
Rem. Enoch prophesied that the "Lord has come amidst his holy myriads", Jude 14.
J.T. Quite so, that is the saints, "his holy myriads". They are made holy; we have the Spirit before that or we would not be holy.
F.H.L. Jude says "to set you with exultation blameless before his glory", referring to God. Is that the rapture?
J.T. I would connect it more with the Lord Himself in display as in Revelation 19. I would think it alludes to that; the day of the Lord and the day of God refer to the time when the Lord has a free hand, but that is a different matter from the rapture. He comes secretly when it refers to the rapture. The verse just quoted is the public situation that we are dealing with, the time when He is doing things.
Ques. In Luke 23 the thief on the cross said to Jesus, "Remember me, Lord, when thou comest in thy kingdom". That should be helpful in relation to the rapidity and non-restriction of the operations of divine Persons, would it not, even in an hour of tremendous pressure?
J.T. The man is given more than he says. The Lord answers him, "To-day shalt thou be with me in paradise". The Lord would be there and he would be with Him. That is a remarkable thing that the Lord should say that to him. If you take the facts as they are, the Lord was saying that when He was on the cross, and He was going to be in the grave three days and three nights. So that it is a disembodied state until resurrection. The Lord left His body for the moment. He is in paradise, but that is all a mystery. We cannot understand that, but He said it, "To-day shalt thou be with me in paradise". The man was dying too, but the Lord was dying. So that we have to think of the condition of the saints in the Old Testament. Their bodies are in the grave, in the earth, but then those saints have some place; they are with the Lord, that is
all we can say, where He is. To depart to be with Christ -- that does not refer to your body, it is your spirit.
A.B.P. You would say he was a son of light; he went into the day?
J.T. I would think so, we are all that, in principle at least, even the little ones in principle.
W.W.M. You made a remark earlier that they have something. No doubt we are concerned as to many people in Christendom we do not know about as Christians. It says in Revelation 2, "As many as have not this doctrine, who have not known the depths of Satan, as they say, I do not cast upon you any other burden; but what ye have hold fast till I shall come". Whatever they have, they have something, and we have to leave it at that.
A.B.P. Would it be right to say that what we have been speaking of helps us in relation to the Supper and what follows it, that we are free to leave the earth because we know all will be settled righteously in relation to it?
J.T. Just so. That is to say, we have the Spirit and by the Spirit we can leave, depart for the moment to be with the Lord in ecstasy, we might call it. Peter had an ecstasy. He was going to have a meat but instead of that he had an ecstasy while waiting for it and he saw wonderful things.
R.W.S. It says in verse 23, "Now the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly: and your whole spirit, and soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ".
J.T. It is very remarkable; I was thinking of that. I want to repeat it so that everyone will hear it and carry it away with them. "Now the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly", not partly, that is God's wish for them all. "Your whole spirit, and
soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ", marvellous! That is the apostle's wish for them, that all this should be true of them. It is wonderful to have in mind "Now the God of peace", that is God Himself, but the God of peace. He is the God of other things, but He is the God of peace. "Himself sanctify you wholly: and your whole spirit", that is the inner part of man, "and soul", the feeling part of man, the love part of man, "and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ". Then it goes on to say, "He is faithful who calls you", that is God Himself (see chapter 2, verse 12), "who will also perform it. Brethren, pray for us". It is very beautiful.
J.H.E. In Matthew 5 the Lord Jesus says, "Blessed the peace-makers, for they shall be called sons of God".
J.T. Showing that we should all make up any differences before we sit down to the Lord's supper. If there be any differences locally, let it all be settled. There is a means of settling it before we sit down at the Lord's supper.
A.B. So that we are not only sons of light but sons of peace.
J.T. Just so, sons of peace; God is the God of peace and light, so we are sons of God.
A.R. It says in Matthew 5 to leave your gift at the altar and be reconciled to your brother.
A.MacD. Is that why Paul says here, "Quench not the Spirit"?
J.T. Quite so. It is just possible that we may do that in any locality, because of bad feelings arising that are not settled. Rather let it be settled. That is the point. Why cannot we settle things? There
is a means of doing it. The truth of redemption coming into our minds and the Holy Spirit coming into our hearts, there is surely means of settling everything.
F.J.F. When we break bread it says "Ye announce the death of the Lord, until he come", 1 Corinthians 11:26. Do we in a way claim the earth for the Lord every time we break bread?
J.T. I am not sure that the Lord is dealing with the earth just now. He will take it presently. I think He is leaving it just with the government that God has set up to look after it. On the first day of the week at the Lord's supper the Lord is concerned with us as to what we are doing, that we are remembering Him, showing forth His death, calling Him to mind. I do not think the Lord is concerned about much else just now, because God has ordered everything as regards the world and the government of it. There are a great many nations, but God is looking after them, and the powers that be, the governments of the nations, are ordained of God. But I think the Lord Jesus viewed by Himself is not engaged with that, except that He has part in Godhead of course, but He is looking after the saints, thinking of the assembly and the gospel. That is what He is going on with.
Ques. "Let a man prove himself", that is the point, is it not?
J.T. That is good, "Let a man prove himself, and thus eat". So that we have things right if we do that.
F.N.W. Does this verse in Hebrews 12 fill out what you are saying? "Pursue peace with all, and holiness, without which no one shall see the Lord: watching lest there be any one who lacks the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you".
J.T. That is what I would call one of the peculiar features of the epistles; they deal with details, and that is one of them. The Lord has taken care to indicate what we should do for ourselves. He will do other things, but what we should do for ourselves, take care of that, that is what the Lord is saying to us. 'Do not ask Me to do it if you can do it for yourself'. The Lord will do things for you if you cannot do them, but if you can do them, you should.
J.T.Jr. It says in verse 22, "Hold fast the right". There are things that are right and they should be held fast amongst us.
J.T. Quite so. "Pursue righteousness ... with those that call upon the Lord out of a pure heart", 2 Timothy 2:22.
J.T.Jr. If what is right is established in a locality, it should be held to firmly.
J.T. In answering the question, 'What is righteousness?' Mr. Raven said it was doing what was right. That is very simple, doing what is right.
E.A.L. I wanted to ask in regard to what you said about settling matters quickly. Some of us know in our localities how necessary that is. Personal, household or family feelings must be dealt with or we will not have liberty in the service of God. It says in 1 John 4, "If any one say, I love God, and hate his brother, he is a liar: for he that loves not his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen?". The point in settling these matters quickly is that we then come into the condition where we can be right before God.
J.T. Just so. John wrote three epistles. The verse just read is one of the best practical sayings I know in all the epistles as to our relations with the brethren.
J.H.E. Verse 26 says, "Greet all the brethren with a holy kiss".
J.T. Very good, that protects us from any frivolous actions. We have to be watchful about that, to look out for holiness in all that we are doing.
Pages 99 - 335 -- "Readings in Matthew's Gospel", Great Britain, 1950 (Volume 183 - Old Series).
Matthew 1:1, 18 - 25; Matthew 2:1 - 23
J.T. Although the gospel of Matthew is in mind, the gospel which is engaged with the assembly, the idea is not to cover the whole of it here, but rather to confine ourselves to the first thirteen chapters now, and then, if the Lord permit, consider from the thirteenth chapter to the end in London.
Our minds should be kept peculiarly pure in dwelling on these two passages of scripture, because of the supreme importance of what is narrated in them, and that we should maintain the sense of holiness, "without which", it says, "no one shall see the Lord". As the time will be somewhat limited, it is thought that we should pass over the genealogies, although we may have to touch upon certain important elements in them. From verse 18 we shall consider the birth of our Lord Jesus, but at the same time we should not overlook verses 16 and 17, where it says, "Jacob begat Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ". And then we are told further, "All the generations, therefore, from Abraham to David were fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away of Babylon, fourteen generations; and from the carrying away of Babylon unto the Christ, fourteen generations". It would not therefore be right to pass over these important verses, because they deal with the forty-two generations, evidently carefully measured. Luke, in the third chapter of his gospel, goes back to Adam, but here the genealogy goes back first to David and then to Abraham. Luke gives us the whole genealogy from
the Lord Jesus back to Adam, and this too must be in our minds, for we are dealing now, especially in our times, with the great facts of the Scriptures, the whole of the Scriptures. The word is, "Every scripture is divinely inspired, and profitable", and we have to consider the whole of them, because the enemy is attacking the Scriptures, and this has been so almost universally since their inauguration. But the Spirit of God is stressing the idea of Scripture itself, and thus, in fairness to the truth, we must include what Luke says as well as Matthew. In Matthew we go back to David and then to Abraham, but in Luke we get the Lord's genealogy traced back to God Himself. It says, "of Adam, of God" (Luke 3:38) and that is a matter everybody should take account of.
Ques. Does it emphasise His deity?
J.T. Well, I would say that if you touch on that, it is in John. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God", John 1:1. That is the most pronounced statement you have of deity in the gospels.
J.S.E. Is there some importance that in these genealogies in Matthew we reach the thought of "David the king", and then the magi's question is, "Where is the king of the Jews that has been born?"
J.T. The word 'king' has a peculiar place in Matthew, and we, of course, have to pay attention to that as we proceed, but the peculiar thought as to deity is in John. It is not that it is omitted in any part of Scripture, in a certain sense, but the peculiar stress as to the deity of divine Persons, especially the deity of the Lord Jesus, is in the gospel of John.
Ques. Would you say the very idea of generation must be connected with manhood?
J.T. I would think so. The word 'generation' has a great place here, whereas it has not a great place
in John. The word is peculiar in its place, and I think we might just refer to Genesis for that word. It says in Genesis 2:4, "These are the histories" (or 'generations' as the footnote says) "of the heavens and the earth, when they were created, in the day that Jehovah Elohim made earth and heavens".
Ques. Would not Emmanuel convey the thought of God too?
J.T. Well, that is the truth, the word "Emmanuel" means "God with us", and, of course, it ought to come into our chapter.
Ques. I wondered why the name Emmanuel is just mentioned, but not developed in Matthew?
J.T. Well, that is enough, you know. When it was a matter of Scripture to support our liberty to address the Holy Spirit, some said, Well, it is only mentioned in the scripture in Numbers 21, "Sing ye unto it"; but that is enough.
P.L. And would you say, by extension, the expression "I am with you all the days" conveys the thought of "God with us"?
J.T. Quite so -- "all the days". It is a remarkable thing that the Lord says that in Matthew, which is the assembly gospel. It does not say in Matthew that the Lord Jesus goes to heaven.
P.L. Is He thus pledged to stand by His assembly here?
J.T. That is the idea, exactly. He is here with us today, in Edinburgh. The Lord is here. "I am with you all the days", He says, "until the completion of the age". You might say, He has been with us every first day of the week; but the truth according to John is that He comes to us. In Matthew He says, "Behold, I am with you all the days, until the completion of the age", but in John He says, "I am coming to you".
It says, "All the generations, therefore, from Abraham to David were fourteen generations; and
from David until the carrying away of Babylon, fourteen generations; and from the carrying away of Babylon unto the Christ, fourteen generations". So that Matthew is very specific as to these generations, and our minds must travel back to them.
Ques. Is there something distinctive in each?
J.T. I am sure there is. It is a question of bringing out the reality of the humanity of Christ. How real it is, and how accurate all is! Certain kings are omitted in this account, but then God is God, and He has a right to omit them if He wishes. If they are not worth mentioning, He has a right to disregard them, and so it is in Matthew.
P.L. So the great principle of sovereign selection operates from the beginning in this gospel?
J.T. Quite so. God is entitled to any selection He might be pleased to make, and we have to be subject to it. It is a great matter for sisters and brothers alike to learn to be subject. We might mention the matter about the sisters, because God is helping us as to the matter of subjection, and we are to be subject to the Scriptures in every detail, Infidelity, of course, would intrude itself, but we are to stand out, every one of us, as believers in the Lord Jesus, as faithful to Scripture. "Every scripture is divinely inspired, and profitable for teaching, for conviction, for correction, for instruction in righteousness; that the man of God may be complete, fully fitted to every good work", 2 Timothy 3:16, 17.
P. L. Is the authority of Scripture peculiarly stressed from the beginning here, in verse 22, "Now, all this came to pass that that might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord", and later on we have the same expression, "which was spoken by the Lord", and then the prophets and what was spoken through them? Is there instruction for the
assembly in the emphasising of Old Testament scripture?
J.T. Quite so, and accuracy too in the quotation and interpretation of Scripture. The idea of "Thus saith the Lord" is very prominent in this chapter. At the same time there is the thought of righteousness attaching to Joseph. He was "a righteous man", which is a very important thing. We are told to "pursue righteousness ... with those that call upon the Lord out of a pure heart", 2 Timothy 2:22. I appeal to the brethren because I believe what we are saying now is of peculiar importance. Scripture should have its place, and we should be righteous, and we should call on the Lord out of a pure heart. It is not simply those who believe, but those who have pure hearts.
Ques. May I inquire why the carrying away to Babylon is particularly mentioned? You have mentioned the scripture in Timothy, as to calling on the Lord out of a pure heart, and I wondered whether that was a suggestion of the way back from Babylon to Christ. We have the setting up of things in David, and then the breakdown publicly, but the maintenance of God's thoughts in Christ. Does the passage you quoted from Timothy indicate morally the way back, and is that prophetically outlined in these generations?
J.T. That is very good, I would say. So many are not coming back, and we are trying to get them back. It ought to be the first thing with the brethren, to help persons back. It was said in the Lord's own day, that many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more (John 6:66).
H.F.N. Is this great matter of righteousness emphasised by the Lord's first utterance in the gospel, "thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness", Matthew 3:15?
J.T. Just so. When John the baptist would have prohibited Him from being baptised, He said, "thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness". That is to say, He associates, in grace, John the baptist with Himself, which is a very precious thought, and we ought to learn from Him, however advanced we may be, or helped of God, to consider each other and identify others with ourselves.
Ques. Would not these verses show that a righteous man receives peculiar help from the Lord, for he was hindered from doing what was in his mind to do?
J.T. What about the question in Matthew of a righteous man, and the reward of a righteous man? (See Matthew 10:41). What is in your mind about that?
Rem. The peculiar interest of divine Persons seems to be seen in that he is followed up in his meditations and thoughts, and that they are put right in accordance with what God has done.
J.T. Quite so. I was thinking I would raise that question as to righteousness, as entering peculiarly into the gospel of Matthew, because we have to deal with history and facts. We have to bear witness, as it says, as they do in the courts in this world. We have the idea of two or three witnesses, and we have to do with that in assembly matters. All this is essential so that things may be followed through and the facts brought out and stated clearly. We need to see that things that are stated are so. It is said of the Lord Himself, that He did not say so-and-so, and we are apt to say things that are not so, and we ought to be very careful that we state the truth and the truth only.
Rem. In verse 18, which we read, it says, "she was found to be with child of the Holy Spirit", and I wondered if that would not indicate the great place that the Holy Spirit would have in all that we
are to find out, and the conclusions that we are to arrive at.
J.T. Very good indeed. Joseph was established a righteous man, and of course, he is the kind of man that ought to attend the care meetings, so that the truth as to everything is brought out. Therefore I think righteousness has a peculiar place in Matthew, and this bears very much on what enters into our deliberations, and the things that come up for assembly judgment. Joseph was a man who could regulate his mind; he could follow up the truth and search things out, and so God honoured him. He had a wonderful distinction in becoming the reputed father of the Lord Jesus Christ.
G.M.S. It says, "while he pondered on these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him". Do we get the same in Acts 10? When Peter pondered on the vision, the Spirit said certain things to him.
J.T. Very good. According to Luke, Mary thought on the things that were said to her, and it says that she pondered them in her heart.
J.S.E. Is it touching that an angel can speak so freely of the Holy Spirit to a man?
J.T. It is remarkable; but you may have something more in your mind?
J.S.E. I was just meditating on this precious setting, that an angel could speak to a man of what the Holy Spirit had done. I was wondering whether we ought not to be more at home in relation to what the Holy Spirit is saying, for it is intended to help us forward toward the end that God has in mind.
J.T. Then, what a place angels have! It says, "Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out for service on account of those who shall inherit salvation?" Hebrews 1:14. They are not above us; they
are not as great as men, but they are ministering spirits, and we can reckon upon them. It has to be remembered, too, that they were created long before men. That is an important thing too, to have in our minds, as to the idea of man, that man was not created as early as angels, but very much later, according to the actual facts of Scripture. Perhaps we are not conversant very much with the thought of man being a relatively recent creation, although it is very clear in the Scriptures.
H.F.N. Is righteousness the basis of manhood in relation to the assembly?
J.T. I think so. For instance, in chapter 18 we have "if two of you shall agree on the earth concerning any matter ... it shall come to them". Man has a great place there. It is "two of you". It is not two angels, but "two of you", two men. I would like to hear what you think about that.
H.F.N. I think that is excellent. I suppose each of the gospels gives some distinctive feature of manhood in that way? In Luke, in relation to Simeon, it is "a man in Jerusalem", and you have often called our attention to the fact that John is the pattern in regard to spirituality, and so Matthew stresses the great thought of righteousness. Would that be right?
J.T. I think that is quite right. The subject of man is so important. The word is, "For God is one, and the mediator of God and men one, the man Christ Jesus", 1 Timothy 2:5. "The man Christ Jesus"; that is a great point made. We have had great encouragement in New York in considering the question of 'Man'. It is a prime question for every one of us, because we are all men, and God is stressing what manhood is. It is wonderful to think that Christ became a Man -- yea, that God Himself became a Man, because that is the truth. "He is the true God and eternal life", 1 John 5:20.
H.F.N. We have all been following, with intense interest, how the subject of 'Man' has been developed in the readings in New York.
J.T. I am thankful to hear that, because I am sure it is important that we should all become familiar with the idea of man, especially in view of God Himself becoming Man in Christ. It is no less than that; the incarnation is the whole basis of all the Scriptures, and everything that is being said has man in view. God has been pleased to reserve the idea of this wonderful creature, and it is because the Son was in mind; the Lord Jesus became a Man. So in Mark He is immediately referred to as the Son of God, and then the Spirit of God goes back to John the baptist and so forth; but at first it is "Jesus Christ, Son of God". He is a divine Person.
W.S.S. What you are saying reminds us of the beginning of Isaiah 32, "A king shall reign in righteousness ... And a man shall be as a hiding-place".
J.T. That was in my mind. I am thankful for what you say, because it bears on what we are talking about.
J.H-s. Is it significant that in this gospel, Pilate's wife says, "Have thou nothing to do with that righteous man"?
J.T. That just brings up the whole question of sisters, a matter that we have had before us for over a year now, so that they are here today in these three-day meetings. Pilate's wife has a great place, and it is remarkable that she should be mentioned at such a time and that she calls the Lord Jesus "that righteous man". Let the sisters therefore be very careful as to what they say about divine Persons, and that they speak rightly and reverently and holily about Them, and let them be sure that everything that is said about divine Persons is properly spoken.
W.C. Would the view in Matthew's gospel in regard of the bringing in of man be for the working out of moral questions, that is in Christ and the assembly, bringing in the woman?
J.T. That is good. I am glad you say that, because it comes into our care of the saints. Many cases of evil come up and have to be adjusted, and therefore the idea of righteousness is most important. It is an excellent thought; Pilate's wife can speak of the Lord Jesus as a righteous man, and she advises her husband not to have anything to do with Him.
M.A.W. Do the four women who are named in the genealogy bear on that? You have Thamar, Rahab, Ruth, and the wife of Urias.
J.T. I should think so. Although some were disreputable persons, you might say, yet God does not fail to bring them forward. Then see the place Rahab finds in the Scriptures, and she comes in here in Matthew. She tells the spies to return another way, and the magi are instructed to do the same thing here. It says, "they departed into their own country another way". They did not go back Herod's way. It is a great matter to have recourse to some other way, if it is a right way, and to defeat the devil in his movements.
Wm.H. Would there be any suggestion of following righteousness when it says that Joseph was a righteous man, but at the same time "unwilling to expose her publicly"?
J.T. I was thinking of that, and what a peculiarly righteous man he was, and how he defeated the enemy, notwithstanding the enemy's efforts.
A.H. Does Isaiah 9 help with the development of this matter, especially in verses 6 and 7, where government, peace and righteousness are referred to? "and his name is called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of eternity, Prince of peace".
J.T. That is well worthy of being brought into our consideration, I am sure. Isaiah brings forward the Lord Jesus as "Father of eternity". We must not think that it is "the Father" that is in mind there. The name "Father of eternity", is really Father of the age. We must be careful not to say that it is the Father, because it is not; it is "Father of the age".
Ques. Have you something further to say in regard to the place that the Holy Spirit is given and emphasised by the angel, in regard to the change that was necessary as Joseph purposed in his heart to put Mary away secretly? He is told now that he is not to do it. I should like to have some help in regard to the way in which the truth is now brought forward as to the place the Holy Spirit has in relation to the great thought of the incarnation.
J.T. It is one of the things that God has specially brought up in recent times, and, of course, it is quite right to bring it in here, because the Spirit is so stressed and the place He had in such a secret and holy relation; it is most holy. That a divine Person should be thus in such a circumstance is marvellous, and that God should, as it were, allow this to be recorded in the holy page of Scripture, but it is true, nevertheless, and we all have to learn to read Scripture accordingly and let it have its full place and be holy in reading it; because we are to be holy, even as God is holy.
J.M. Would the words there, "before they came together", be intended to guard the miraculous conception of the Lord Jesus?
J.T. Just so. God does not hesitate to use these expressions, but they should be clothed, in our thoughts, with holiness, because we are so apt to let our minds run away with us in dealing with these holy things, whereas God has been pleased to condescend
to speak of them by His Spirit, and yet they refer to the Lord Jesus Himself.
G.M.S. Do these verses distinguish between who the Lord is in His Person and that which He is in manhood? It says, "that which is begotten".
J.T. Quite so, but the holiness of the whole scene is what should affect us peculiarly at this time. We should not overlook the meaning of these holy things as coming particularly into these first two chapters. It says that without holiness no one shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14). So let us not forget, if it be a question of persons coming into fellowship, we must have holiness.
A.C.S.P. Would you be free to say another word as to the three-fold reference to the angel appearing in a dream?
J.T. I suppose the time had not come for the great actions or activities of the Holy Spirit. The time had not come for that, but we have come to it, so that we do not count on dreams now. I do not. I never remember having any light from dreams; but we get light from the Holy Spirit. The blessed Spirit is here to give us light. You have something else in mind?
A.C.S.P. I was wondering whether it preceded what the Spirit may do today, particularly in connection with the reference earlier to the fact that Joseph pondered these things.
J.T. Well, just so. What I am saying, I am sure, is true, because we do not count on dreams now. I would not rely on them, but the Spirit of God is here to replace them. If therefore there is any question, let us speak to the Spirit. That raises the question as to speaking to the Spirit. It is mentioned, you might say, only in Numbers 21, but every one of us at any time or at any minute can speak to the Holy Spirit.
If there are any not clear, they ought to be clear at once. We want the whole truth and nothing but the truth. We are to go in for it, and go in for it wholly. The Holy Spirit is a divine Person; there are the three Persons, the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, and the one name covers Them all. We cannot say that any angels hold that place at all; they are creatures, and ourselves too, we are creatures, but there are three divine Persons, and we must make much of every One of Them and give Them the place that Scripture gives Them.
T.T. In the book of Job, reference is made to God speaking in dreams, but now we have God speaking in Son, and further, the Holy Spirit speaking expressly.
J.T. That is just what we are saying. The Spirit is here and no one shall take His place. He is a divine Person.
A.H.G. Is man peculiarly fitted for receiving divine communications as having the Holy Spirit?
J.T. As having the Holy Spirit -- quite so. It is wonderful that we who are believers should have the Holy Spirit, and so the question is put by Paul immediately to some in a certain place in the Acts, "Did ye receive the Holy Spirit when ye had believed?" Acts 19:2.
A.H.G. I thought it would amplify what you have said in regard to man, and the place that man has, he being now peculiarly capacitated to receive divine communications.
J.T. And that brings out what we have already said, that man is the most recent of all the creatures of God. It was said that God brought the creatures to Adam and he named them, and God let the names stand; but God brought the woman to Adam too, and Adam says, "This time it is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh: this shall be called Woman". Then it is also said that Jehovah built
her. She was built a woman; that is to say, already she was a type of the assembly.
Ques. Mary kept this great matter a secret even from Joseph. Is that a commendable feature?
J.T. Well, I would say the Spirit of God had to do with that; it was not an accident. It was not left to Mary, and there is nothing here to be attached to her as wrong; she simply did not do it, but the Spirit of God took care of that. In the same sense the Spirit of God is taking care of wonderful things for ourselves.
Ques. Is she not signally marked out by being called "the virgin" in verse 23? She was particularly suitable for the great transaction that was involved. It says in Isaiah 7:14, "Therefore will the Lord himself give you a sign; Behold, the virgin shall conceive and shall bring forth a son, and call his name Immanuel". The note to "the" says it is the 'emphatic article'; so it is not an ordinary person, it is a person suitably selected.
J.T. Quite so, and that is confirmed here in Matthew 1"The virgin". It is the only one so designated.
Ques. Is the virgin feature to be developed in the assembly?
J.T. Quite so. "I have espoused you unto one man, to present you a chaste virgin to Christ", 2 Corinthians 11:2. It is a word that has full cognizance in the Scriptures. You do not get Eve called a virgin; the word 'woman' is used. She is built.
J.S.E. Rebecca is the only woman in Genesis so named, is she not?
J.T. I think so, so far as I remember. It is a fine word, just as the word 'woman' is a fine word. The Lord uses that word as to the woman of Samaria; He credits her with being a woman. The word 'woman' has the same place relatively as the word 'man', although in Genesis 1 the word 'man'
covers both man and woman; both Adam and Eve are covered by the word 'man'.
H.F.N. Does not the Lord say to Mary of Magdala in John 20, "Woman, why dost thou weep"?
J.T. But He called her Mary afterwards, showing that He brought in the familiar thought, which is just what you might expect of the Lord in His grace with such a one as that.
Ques. Is it necessary to stress that Mary, the Lord's mother, remains a woman, that no deity attaches to her?
J.T. We do not want to mention names, but what do the Roman Catholics mean as to the word 'woman'? They say, 'Mary the mother of God', which is terrible blasphemy.
Rem. May I just remark how beautifully Scripture speaks of it: "Mary, the mother of Jesus". Is there not, in Scripture, sufficient to meet every wrong thought that has ever been introduced?
J.T. Just so. Of course, Luke helps us more fully. Luke is a peculiar gospel with regard to the precious vessel of the birth of the Lord Jesus. He speaks of Mary, the Lord's mother, and gives us her wonderful psalm that we should all remember. A typical Hannah is seen in Mary.
Rem. You have something to suggest further in regard to the second chapter, just to go over it before we close.
J.T. What is to be noticed is the use of the term "little child". It is not the same as in Luke, where the babe is mentioned. In Matthew it is the little child, and I think that the Spirit of God refers to what is somewhat more developed, and that has to come under consideration when young people are wishing to come into fellowship, because they are not babes. The case of Eutychus, in Acts 20, whose age is not mentioned, but who is called a youth, and then a boy, would show that children have to be
taken care of in view of the fellowship. They should not be held up too long until they are brought into fellowship, because it is a question of the assembly.
P.L. So that it says, "Yea, have ye never read, Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise?" Matthew 21:16. That is connected with the children in the temple?
J.T. Quite so. Pardon me for alluding to New York, but there we sometimes allow them into fellowship as young as ten. I think the brethren might do well to consider that some children develop quicker than others, and if they are fit to have part, the Spirit of God can actually use them. It is therefore time for us to recognise what is there.
P.L. They are saying something of their own, spiritually, are they not?
J.T. 'Something of their own'; I know that it is so; some of them do say something of their own.
Rem. So that it would be a question of judging the work of God, and not exactly the age.
J.T. That is just it; judging the work of God. Of course, a child is slow, no doubt, but some of them move more quickly than others, and I think we should respect that, because God is God, and we should respect what He does. We are speaking especially of the Spirit of God now, because He has been sent down from heaven and He looks after things in that sense.
M.A.W. The idea of reception seems stressed here. The expression "Take to thee the little child and his mother" is mentioned several times.
J.T. It would show the responsibility attaching to Joseph, as to how he should care for the child. It says, "the little child and his mother"; that is to say, the little child is more prominent than the mother. So with any little child among us we have to discern what the work of God may be and recognise it.
J.T.Jr. In chapter 18 the Lord takes the little child to Him, and in chapter 19 the disciples do not seem to be right about it because they rebuked those that brought the children.
J.McK. Does the way the divine system comes into operation in this chapter give some encouragement as to the young being committed on the line of righteousness? I was thinking of the way the angel comes in so frequently in relation to the little child and his mother, as though heaven is equal to the matter once we are committed on this line.
J.T. Well, quite so. We can easily discern whether there is definite committal and whether the child has really a mind capable of being committed in itself to anything of God. The mind is given to the child, and our spirits are given to us, from God, not from our parents. A child does not get his spirit from his parents, he gets it from God, and, of course, we have to make allowance for what God does at any time.
A.R. Would that be illustrated in the Lord Himself, at twelve years of age, when He said, "Did ye not know that I ought to be occupied in my Father's business?" Luke 2:49. He was fully committed.
J.T. Just so. I think He marks the way for us.
Ques. Are not some of our children damaged when they are very young through lack of this fatherly care?
J.T. Will you illustrate how they get damaged in their youth? You are stressing very young?
Rem. Yes. We ought to have the assembly outlook as regards the children in very early days, and seek to bring them into things, counting on God and His wonderful work.
Rem. So that in the book of Numbers, whilst you have maturity in view, you also have the idea of "a month old and upward".
Ques. Would you look for them to learn, after they come in, more about the position we occupy? Sometimes they are held back because, it is said, they do not realise the position.
J.T. Just so. So that the Lord sets the example of the plural in that sense. He says to John the baptist, "thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness". The plural, we might say, includes young persons as well as older ones.
Ques. Had Paul got that in mind when he says: "The bread which we break"?
J.T. Quite so. "Is it not the communion of the body of the Christ?" is it not that?
W.C. In regard of the young ones, it says in Psalm 128, "thy children like olive-plants round about thy table". Does that suggest children as taken up by the Spirit?
J.T. Quite so. They are round about the table of the parents, showing that the children are to be taken care of.
E.A.L. Would the fact that Herod slew all the boys who were in Bethlehem show how important this state of potential manhood is?
J.T. Quite so, and the terribleness of the suffering. Rachel's sufferings are referred to there and we must not forget that too. She is a sister. It says, "Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not".
A.M.W. We read in John 6, "There is a little boy here who has five barley loaves and two small fishes". He would be in fellowship, would he not?
J.T. Well, I would think so. He was entrusted with them. He had some responsibility, and that would be an indication that it was time for fellowship.
Matthew 3:1 - 17; Matthew 4:1 - 25
J.T. I suppose we may regard it that Joseph was guided by the Spirit of God as to what he did in taking the little child and His mother into Nazareth. It says in verse 20, "take to thee the little child and its mother, and go into the land of Israel". But he feared to take Him into Judea, as it says, "he was afraid to go there". We may gather (and perhaps get instruction from it) that there was certain latitude given to him, which he took and which God approved. We may, in our time too, as occasion offers, take a certain latitude or liberty as it were, which God approves.
P.L. Does the possible danger, which the son of such a father as Herod (Matthew 2:22) constitutes, afford latitude for going carefully and in wisdom?
J.T. Quite so. The treasure was great and the risk was great, but nevertheless he evidently was under divine guidance, and the action was approved. What he did fulfilled the prophecy, as it says, "so that that should be fulfilled which was spoken through the prophets" -notice "through the prophets", it is not simply one prophet but "through the prophets" -- "He shall be called a Nazaraean". So that there was evidently an approval of Joseph's action. I am mentioning this because God is God, and we must not think that He does not, as it were, regard things simply, to speak reverently, and allow people to act according to what is right obviously, or can be approved obviously, in ordinary circumstances or the like. What Joseph did was approved, the words 'so that', in verse 23, implying that. It was an important matter that the Lord Himself should be spoken of as a Nazaraean.
P.L. According to Luke, "they returned to Galilee to their own city Nazareth". So He was returning to His locality, was he not?
J.T. Just so. It is the idea of a locality, which has become very prominent in modern times amongst the brethren. The idea of a locality is in principle unfolded in the first epistle to the Corinthians.
T.T. He did not refuse to go; it says, "he was afraid". There was no will involved. That would be important.
Ques. Does not this idea of assembly latitude being allowed to assembly persons, or to the assembly, run through the gospel?
J.T. What you say is certainly well worth considering. I suppose you have in mind that the gospel of Matthew is the great gospel of the assembly, and therefore certain latitude may be taken.
Rem. I am thinking of how much the Lord would leave to us to do, giving us certain latitude in it.
J.T. For instance, you might think of going to Australia, and go, and God would be with you, and perhaps you had not thought of it earlier.
Wm.H. Would that lay the basis for what marks the assembly as intelligent persons?
J.T. Just so. "I speak as to intelligent persons; do ye judge what I say". The first epistle to the Corinthians leaves the way open for many such suggestions. For example, we have in chapter 7, "if the unbeliever go away, let them go away; a brother or a sister is not bound in such cases". That is to say, the Spirit of God would allow certain things; and so it is as to many cases in marital relations according to the first epistle. The question of marriage, of course, becomes exceedingly interesting in that sense, and serious, as to partners that we may select. At the same time God is wonderfully merciful, and comes down to us in certain conditions, and
honours what we may do. We know in the Old Testament that God honoured certain things in His servants, in different parts, as the brethren will remember.
G.M.S. It says, "The Lord preserved David whithersoever he went", 2 Samuel 8:6.
J.T. Just so, and He told him at one time to go to a certain place, because He had given him certain advantage over the enemy.
P.L. So the word to Abraham, "And they said, So do as thou hast said", Genesis 18:5.
A.H.G. In this matter of latitude, have you in mind that this gospel leads up to the thought of sons moving in liberty?
J.T. So it is. The Lord says, in chapter 17, "Then are the sons free", and, of course, we can understand how the principle of sonship would therefore prevail in the gospel of Matthew and work out in the liberty of the assembly, in the worship of God. The worship of God properly begins, I believe, with the Lord's supper, and it is remarkable that in Matthew sonship is introduced. "Then are the sons free", the Lord says. But then He says to Peter, that he is to go to the sea and cast a hook, and take the first fish that came up, and take it for the Lord and himself. So that there is liberty given in those cases, which is a very important thing to have before us.
A.H. Had you in mind to say anything further about this matter of locality? I was wondering whether the first three verses of Isaiah 53 might bear on it. What a delightful matter there was for God in that! It says, "he shall grow up before him as a tender sapling".
J.T. Quite so. "When we see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him". "He shall grow up before him as a tender sapling, and as a root out of dry ground". So that the Lord grows up into
His place. But there is liberty in the position which He occupies as before God.
W.C. In the matter of divine latitude, is it governed by divine instruction as in the case of Joseph? You said this morning that we do not get guidance in dreams, but by the Spirit. The note to the word 'instructed' in chapter 2, verses 12 and 22, indicates that it is an answer after consultation. In our case, is it a question of waiting on the Spirit?
J.T. Yes, but Joseph went down to Nazareth because he was afraid. He was governed by fear, perhaps right fear, but still he feared. The magi did not fear.
W.C. In addition to fear, it says he was "divinely instructed" in going to Nazareth.
J.T. There was certain latitude allowed, as we have said. At the same time the two cases are not alike, because the instruction is specific to Joseph, whereas it was not to the magi, but they did the right thing because they were wise men. The word means 'wise men'.
Ques. Would you illustrate what you have in your mind as to how the matter of latitude might be applied.
J.T. Well, just what we have been saying, that there is latitude, that God is God and He comes down to us at times, and, you might say, speaking reverently, He sometimes changes His mind. The same is true in the Old Testament.
P.L. Would the expression, "thy commandment is exceeding broad" (Psalm 119:96) allow for it?
J.T. Very good. That belongs to the Psalms, and the Psalms are exceeding broad because they are so extensive, and they correspond with the Pentateuch, referring to experience with God in things. The Psalms and the Pentateuch would agree together in that sense; there are five books in each, and the
experiences of the Psalms would correspond with the intelligence and authority of the books of Moses.
A.H.G. Does God, in that way, take account sympathetically of our feelings? I was thinking of Joseph being afraid to go there.
J.T. Just so. God is, as it were, implying that He agrees to it; He comes down to it. God is God, and we have to learn to increase in the knowledge of God, because He is God and He is full of love. God is love, and we must expect that He will act lovingly thus, as I was saying.
Ques. Does the word, "wisdom is justified of her children", bear upon the matter?
J.T. Quite so. The reference to the magi has that in mind. They were wise men; they were not governed by political fear of Herod. They went another way, and God approved it. They could have gone the way that was left to them, but they went another way. It was not very specific; God did not make it a specific thing, but they went the right way clearly. They might have taken the first way, but the other way was better.
E.A.L. Do we see that in Jonah? He was not right regarding this matter of latitude from the divine side. The Lord really changed His mind in regard of Nineveh, because of its repentance, but Jonah did not seem to be able to change. Jehovah did not destroy Nineveh; and it grieved Jonah that what he had prophesied did not come to pass.
J.T. God told Jonah how many people there were in the city -- "a hundred and twenty thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand". There was no mistake in what God was saying. Whatever Jonah might have thought, there was no mistake in what God said. He said there were so many persons in the city, and should He not change something to meet all that? I mean to say that God is God, and He takes His
own liberties, and so it was that He would save the Ninevites. The immensity of their number was in His mind, and Jonah should have thought of that.
H.F.N. In view of what you have said regarding latitude, how does it bear on the opening of 1 Corinthians? We have there, "the assembly of God which is in Corinth", and then, "all that in every place". How would the thought of latitude in our assembly relationships apply?
We are just taking up, at Bournemouth, the exercise as to whether we should work together with our brethren in Poole and Parkstone. We all recall the exercise that the saints passed through in regard of local responsibility, and now I was wondering whether the brethren joining up together in privileges and administration would come within the range of the latitude of which you speak. We have been two separate towns, although, of course, it is all one place. Now the exercise is as to whether we should not work together as our brethren have done on the Merseyside.
J.T. The question is whether you are merely aiming at unity, or is it the case that the facts regarding Bournemouth and Poole warrant it? Do you not think you should decide yourselves, in Bournemouth, what you should do in these local matters, without the matter being made a general question among the saints?
H.F.N. That is what we are doing.
J.T. I think that is quite right; and that is what we do in New York. We have five boroughs in New York and have no difficulty on that account, but in many other places they have not got such advantages. It is a question of the brethren being wise, like the magi, using the good wisdom that God gives them. "Wisdom is the principal thing", Proverbs says. We are called to be wise in these things, and I think that, in local matters, the brethren generally
should leave the matter to the local brethren, and the Lord will help them in due time as to what to do.
W.S.S. I think it might possibly help to say that in the exercises that we had in the Liverpool area, we were very much helped by Matthew's gospel, as that which accords us liberty to act in the best interests of the saints in the place. It says in chapter 17, "Then are the sons free".
J.T. I fully follow that, because I have known quite a little about that district, and I think the brethren generally agree to it, and leave it with you in the meetings concerned.
W.S.S. We find it has worked out exceedingly well, and I believe it might be an encouragement to others similarly placed, that we have this latitude to move in liberty, and the Lord comes in and supports us.
J.T. Quite so. In olden times there used to be much more difficulty about brethren and localities, and God has helped us to be patient with each other, and if we give time to it the right thing will be done. There was a case down in the south of England, and although the brethren there decided one thing, it was not approved fully, and I am not sure that it can be approved yet, because there is such a distance of countryside between the two localities. There is hardly the idea of a local position there, binding the two localities together. There are brethren here who know something about it.
Ques. Would it not be the way of wisdom to investigate as to what basis there is for two or more meetings to join up? There would have to be some basis, not just that it is thought to be a good idea.
J.T. Well, when you have two meetings, and five miles between the two, is there a basis for unifying the two meetings into one? I doubt it
very much. There is so much land between the meetings to which we have referred.
Rem. That is what I had in my mind, because some suggestions have been made as to merging where there hardly seems to be any working basis for it.
G.M.S. Chapter 4, verse 13, brings in the matter of locality. It says of the Lord Himself, "and having left Nazareth, he went and dwelt at Capernaum, which is on the sea-side", and that fulfils another scripture.
J.T. Very good, and another thing that may be said about Nazareth and its position, is that it was higher up relatively. There would be better surroundings and a better neighbourhood physically, than the neighbourhood of the Sea of Tiberias. The position about the lake was not so healthy, or happy, or free as the position in Nazareth. So that the Lord, as it were, ignored His own comfort in going down toward the sea. We have to bear in mind that there are localities and localities, and the Sea of Tiberias, or Galilee, would be lower down, less comfortable, less healthy, than Nazareth.
J.P. We had this morning about Joseph being a righteous man; and now, at the end of chapter 3, the Lord uses the words, "for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness". Everything in the assembly should be based on righteousness.
J.T. I would stress the word 'all' -- "all righteousness" -- which is a great matter in the things of God as to localities.
I think now we might proceed to chapter 4, to bring out the truth of the Lord's temptations, which, is the main thought that we should have before us at this time. We have the Lord Jesus Himself carried up into the wilderness by the Spirit to be tempted of the devil, so that the temptation is very serious and real, and we have to examine each one
because there are three specific cases of temptation, but before them a period of forty days during which He was tempted. The first thing is, He "was carried up into the wilderness by the Spirit to be tempted of the devil", which is a most remarkable thing, that the Spirit of God should carry the Lord Jesus up into the wilderness. The Spirit did that, and then it says, "and having fasted forty days and forty nights, afterwards he hungered".
G.M.S. You were speaking of manhood this morning. Is it significant that the Lord's first quotation from the Scriptures here in this gospel is "Man shall not live by bread alone"?
J.T. Yes. Man is the word; not 'a Jew', but 'man'.
A.M. Would the mention of fasting imply that there was no reliance on nature's strength at this juncture? Are we to understand that in meeting the enemy?
J .T. Quite so. I think we should take up immediately this matter of the temptation by the devil, and the Lord being carried by the Spirit, for what the Spirit is doing now is a thing that enters into the present exercises of the brethren. He has been sent down here to do things, and He is doing them, and we should make room for Him.
J.T.Jr. Do you think that the Spirit might therefore lead us into any set of circumstances which might involve temptations, and the question is how we act in them, and what ability we have to meet what might be brought to us?
J.T. Well, now, the next thing would be whether we are always ready to overcome the temptation in the spirit of an overcomer, because that must be the case. The Lord was the overcomer in this whole paragraph. I do not know whether that was in your mind at all.
J.T.Jr. Yes. We have, to be guarded lest the circumstances which we might find ourselves in lead us to fleshly dealing with the thing instead of bringing in what would meet it in the power of the Spirit, the word of God.
J.T. The first one ought to be looked into. "Then Jesus was carried up into the wilderness by the Spirit to be tempted of the devil: and having fasted forty days and forty nights, afterwards he hungered. And the tempter coming up to him said, If thou be Son of God, speak, that these stones" -- you will remember that we are now dealing with the devil's own words in this particular verse -- "that these stones may become loaves of bread. But he answering said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word which goes out through God's mouth". That is to say, there is such a thing as the mind of God, and we have to consider that before we answer any temptation. It is a question of God's mouth and what He has said. Every one of us is to be subject to God. It is not the 'Jew', but it is just 'man', and what man should do or should not do. We should be governed by God's mouth, which is the most precious thing which we ever could be governed by.
P.L. Would that link on a little with the "loin girt about with truth" -- power in that sense, in the knowledge of God, to meet every exigency as it arises?
J.T. The loins suggest the feelings and affection that properly belong to a man, or a woman. He is pretty sure to be tested, but then he is to be girt about with truth. Truth is the great thing there "Having girt about your loins with truth", Ephesians 6:14. It is a question of the truth, and not simply the actual verbal truth, but the Spirit of truth.
Ques. Would the trade union matter that the brethren are at present facing have a bearing on
it; the loaves of bread, in contrast to what proceeds out of the mouth of God?READINGS ON FIRST THESSALONIANS (2)
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