Pages 1 - 366 -- "Ministry in Great Britain 1950", (Volume 185).

MANCHESTER -- READING (1)

1 Corinthians 11:1 - 34

J.T. This chapter has been before some of us lately, and with profit, but largely to develop out of it the import of the Lord's supper. This is in mind too now, only what is prominent at the moment is the idea of headship. The apostle brings himself forward and we cannot ignore the fact that he has been taken up by the Lord to develop this thought of the assembly. He did not fail to do so, for he is the one to do it, according to his word in the epistle to the Ephesians, "I speak as to Christ, and as to the assembly". What is in mind now is to bring out the thought of headship in Christ and how it should develop in the working out of the Lord's supper. It would seem as if the Lord's supper is the initial idea in the service of God, and it may be remarked that the first day of the week has become increasingly valuable in connection with the Lord's supper and the service of God. All that follows in every week generally contributes to the service of God so that the brethren have come to regard it in this way. We have the service of God in the morning, and the scriptures read in the afternoon with a view to developing the truth and then the gospel preached in the evening. The first day of the week thus has a peculiar place as we all know in regard to the whole system of service. We commence with the Lord's supper and the service of God follows, so that the Father is approached and worshipped. The worship of God has thus acquired its proper place, and also what belongs to it, such as hymns, have acquired

their own place. Then too one believes that more and more there is real concern, at the present time, as to the Spirit and the place He should have. So that the service of the Spirit is not at all relegated in the service of God; it has its own place so that we have such thoughts as "Abba, Father", which would be by the Spirit and that belongs properly to the worship of the Father. I thought it well to lay out a little what is in mind both for this meeting and for the evening meeting. It may be remarked too that the types, as we properly call them, have acquired a great place, and such a place as they have not had earlier, so far as I can discern, and one believes the brethren would do well to use them, because they are intended to be used. Chapter 10 of this epistle refers to them. In fact in chapter 10 the cup is placed before the bread, but the order is the bread and the cup. There are not two suppers or really two parts of it, the idea is one Supper, it is the Lord's supper.

Ques. There are believers in wrong associations who claim to partake of the Lord's supper. Would you say whether they can truly do that in wrong associations?

J.T. I am sure they cannot. The Scriptures are so full of instruction and, in that light, what you refer to cannot be accepted. There must be right principles and right doctrine underlying the service of God and the Lord's supper leading in it. There are probably a hundred so-called religious christian systems; but there can be only one according to God, and that is based on the Lord's supper. Then the service of God follows on that, the brethren all being brought into it under the leadership of Christ as the "minister of the holy places and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord has pitched, and not man".

J.S.E. Is that why you have been so concerned recently to emphasise the assembly amongst us, rather than permitting the thought of a remnant?

J.T. Quite so. I think the word 'remnant' is properly connected with Israel, whereas, in dealing with the service of God in relation to christianity, the word 'remnant' is not suitable. The Scriptures would require that the whole idea of the assembly should be kept before us; it is one idea. The assembly is the greatest family in the whole universe, and it is the family God has selected to set out His system of worship.

Eu.R. Is that confirmed in our chapter by the words "When ye come together in assembly"? Is it still possible to come together in assembly in spite of the broken state of things?

J.T. I think so, I think that what I was saying is of prime importance. It is not simply as a remnant that we come together, but the whole idea is to be there, and the Spirit of God will be here. The blessed Spirit remains not in part, but as a whole. He supports and maintains the service of God -- including the gospel, of course. The gospel is to promote material for the assembly; for the assembly is the prime thought in the divine mind at all times. But then there is the remnant of Israel and presently there will be the apostasy. God is holding His hand against what is current, but there will be an apostasy. That is one of the most solemn things, and although the apostasy is in principle current, it has not set in formally yet, because the Spirit of God is here and He holds His hand against the evil of an apostasy.

Ques. When the Lord Jesus addresses Himself to Sardis, after the complete failure in Thyatira, He speaks of Himself as having "the seven Spirits of God". Is that what you have in mind in the Spirit being here in fulness still?

J.T. Very good, "The seven Spirits" is the whole idea -- the whole idea of the Spirit.

Ques. So that alongside of that, there is to be maintained the whole idea of the assembly?

J.T. Quite so. God is behind all that; He has been calling attention to His service, and has brought forward ministry for the last hundred and twenty years that is suitable to lead to and support the idea of the service of God. The service of God is the great thought. The word 'service of God' -- that is the term or formula that we ought to keep before us all the time, because it is the leading thought at the present time. The assembly is the first thought in the mind of God at the present time, and it will continue so.

Ques. Is this recognition of headship intended to set us free in regard of speaking to God and speaking to men? I was thinking of the way headship is introduced by praying and prophesying.

J.T. That shows that the chapter we have just read has the service of God in mind. The idea is to correct everything that was wrong and to maintain things according to order, for God is said to be the God of order, and the God of order enters into this matter of headship. Headship is the prime thought as conveying the intelligence that belongs to the assembly, especially in view of the Lord Jesus Christ being the Head of it; He is the Head of the assembly.

Ques. Will you please distinguish between the thought of Head of the assembly and Head of every man, as it is in chapter 11.

J.T. I think Christ being the Head of every man would bring out the divine thought as to man. God is dealing with humanity and, of course, the fact that the Son has become Man is to give the full

thought of it, and to show how important it is in the divine mind. The Son has become Man, and before entering on His full service He is seen as "about thirty years old". So it is full manhood in the gospel of Luke.

Ques. And the highest thought of manhood would be to be occupied in the service of God?

J.T. That is what I think. There are things added, such as meetings of this kind, and the Lord's day afternoon reading to which the brethren usually rally, and which, I think, ought to be fully supported and promoted generally, especially among young people, who should not allow themselves to be diverted by ordinary affairs on the first day of the week. Then again another matter of importance is that God has graciously, or mercifully, granted us these weekends free to have meetings of this kind, and they are very prevalent. Generally, as far as I know, they are very prevalent throughout the christian world.

Ques. Would you say that the idea of the man and woman in their place in the divine economy in the first part of the chapter is in view of that thought being filled out fully in Christ and the assembly?

J.T. That is just what I thought. One has often thought of the man and the woman being brought in in this peculiar way. No other part of Scripture has such a place in Paul's writings, in this sense, and it is because the Lord took him up at the time his service was needed. The Lord took him up, and in due time gave him a leading place, which he retained until the end. Whenever it was that he was martyred, he had that place, and he had a great deal of time, too, in imprisonment, which probably was in the Lord's mind to give him opportunity to develop the truth, even in writing, so that we have it now in our hands.

Ques. Would you say a little more about the thought of divine order in all these things? Would that assure divine presence?

J.T. See how this chapter opens. The apostle says "Be my imitators, even as I also am of Christ". That is to say, the apostle followed the Lord Jesus in the service of God, and the idea of imitation is carried through, and all flowing out from Christ as the Head. "Be my imitators", he says, "even as I" -- emphatic -- "also am of Christ". So that the idea of imitation is stressed here, showing that the thing is to go through.

E.B.S. Would you mind saying another word on Him being the Head of every man, in contrast to woman?

J.T. Well, let us read the passage. "I praise you, that in all things ye are mindful of me; and that as I have directed you, ye keep the directions", showing that Paul is again stressing himself. Notice these words -- "ye keep the directions". It is the idea of order, and then he goes on, "But I wish you to know that the Christ is the head of every man". Well now, I believe that what has been said already is true, that God is going on with humanity. He is not simply going on with judaism; He is going on with man -- humanity; and the service of God requires that headship should be stressed for this. It is a question of man, and that Christ is the Head of every man -- not only in the aggregate, nor of every assembly, but of every man; it is the idea of men.

A.J.G. Does that mean that the intention is that every man should learn from Christ, and then that the woman should learn from the man?

J.T. That is just what I think is the truth here. Again I would say that God is showing that the idea of humanity has the first place with Him in regard of creation. Man is the leader of creation,

and hence the word was "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness". And then it says "let them have dominion" that word is a plural word, and requires a woman. She is to be with the man, and the man is not to be without her. But the woman is not the first; man is the first and the woman was created for man, not man created for the woman. I believe all that is worked out in this chapter, the service of God being in mind. Man is in God's mind, and He is never going to give it up. He will cleanse the world in the course of time in the sense of judgment, but He will retain man. He will retain man because Christ has become Man and He is not going to give up His manhood; He is to continue in it.

A.C.C. Does the principle of subjection work out in these relations in view of the Supper?

J.T. I think that is the truth. What I quoted from Genesis 1 is also the truth, and it ought to be noted. "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion" that is the man and woman; they are to be coupled together in dominion. It is the divine way, and God is holding to it and will hold to it. I suppose Israel will have its place in the millennium, and although Israel will have its place, man will be finally the great thought.

Rem. And that much greater than angels.

J.T. Surely, because angels are said to minister, "Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out for service on account of those who shall inherit salvation". That is to say the angels are our ministers, although they are great servants too. Sometimes you can see that God has put them forward, but He has created them, for the very purpose of service, not to have an assembly of angels -- things are not put that way; it is a question of manhood, including womanhood.

J.T.S. "The tabernacle of God is with men". Would you say that the headship of Christ continues into the eternal day?

J.T. That is the way, I think, that the chapter should be read in Revelation. It says, "The tabernacle of God is with men", and "the tabernacle of God" will be the assembly. I think the book of Revelation is God asserting His rights to this, that, and the other thing, and among these rights is that man must have the first place.

W.S.S. I was thinking in connection with what you have been saying, would it not bring out the importance of the man on the one hand and the woman on the other hand, each knowing their place in relation to the assembly in order that the service might be carried on rightly?

J.T. Quite so. Woman, in this epistle, is put under restriction as to speaking in the assembly, but she is nevertheless part of those who serve, she is part of the assembly, and her existence really will call attention to the fact that the assembly is a feminine thought.

W.S.S. In the world, woman is seeking a great place and denying the principle that is laid down here. I was thinking of the necessity of accepting this principle if the sisters are to have the great place which belongs to them in assembly exercises and testimony.

J.T. Quite so. The place that women have, of course, has greatly caused degeneration, because she assumes to have the same place as man in regard of rule. Even in regard of voting, in certain countries those who hold the vote include women and they put certain men into power. So that all that is in mind, and yet God says that "He has set a day in which he is going to judge the habitable earth in righteousness by the man whom he has appointed". So that man is kept there and the assurance comes

from God as to Christ's place. The word 'judge' there would be judgment in the sense of humanity being judged, and the government of God is in the hands of a Man. He will judge the habitable earth, in righteousness; the expression "habitable earth" is just a general thought of humanity.

R.W. In verse 3, it goes back to God, "Christ's head God". So that there is no confusion, but order.

J.T. That is true.

J.S.E. Is there something peculiarly attractive in this allusion to the angels in verse 10 in relation to the woman?

J.T. It would show the place that angels have, although, as I said, they are given to be servants to those who are heirs of salvation. We cannot say how old the idea of angels is, but we do know how old man is, and God has kept back the idea of manhood to the final thought. It is in order clearly that His beloved Son should become a Man and He is now Man, and is the Head of every man.

A.J.G. Does this reference to angels involve that angels take account of the maintenance of divine order in the assembly in contrast to the confusion in the world?

J.T. Just so, and, of course, we know angels have fallen, too; some of them have lost their first estate and the judgment of God overtakes them. At the same time, God has not given up His primary thought in man.

P.L. Is their service as ministering spirits but rendered the more intelligent by what is here afforded to them in the instruction as to divine order in the assembly? Does the observation on the part of the angels here of the covering afford them instruction as to the great thoughts of divine recovery?

J.T. Quite so. Every sister should take account of this. It will not, in any way, decrease her place

or importance, or service, but she is to take account of divine order, and see that she is answering to God as she is observing what He has ordered in creation. Everything is under Christ in John 1"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God", and it goes on to say that all things were made by Him, and that nothing was made without Him. So that there is no variation in the divine thoughts by sisters taking account of this matter of the covering, because it honours God and the influence of it extends not only to men on earth but to angels in heaven. It shows how God is regarding His creatures in the sense of man and woman, because He intends to work out the thought of the masculine and feminine in men, and it will come out presently in the millennium; in the meantime everything is worked out in the assembly.

Ques. Is it made attractive in that Christ Himself took a place of subjection?

J.T. Quite so. He was subject even to His parents.

W.S.S. Would you be free to say something about the word 'authority' in the verse we are considering (verse 10). "Therefore ought the woman to have authority on her head"?

J.T. We might well look at the note given at the bottom of the page.

W.S.S. The note says, 'that is, a token of the authority under which she stands'.

J.T. That is, she has something above her.

W.S.S. I think you said sometime ago, that it is like the badge of rank which a soldier wears, and of which he is proud, showing that he is under authority; but being under authority he can speak with authority.

J.T. Quite so. Under authority does not mean that he is rendered inferior by it, but he can speak

with authority because he is under authority. A corporal is under authority in the Army; he is not reduced on that account, but there is an authority above him.

W.G.C. Does the woman in the ordering of God become the expression of the grace of the assembly as subjected to Christ?

J.T. That is right. In the creation God intended to bring out the great thought of Christ and the assembly. He intended to bring it out, and He wanted to do it, and now He has done it, and the thing is to be worked out in christians, because christians have the Spirit; it is all a question of the Spirit.

A.J.G. And you would say that this verse requires that the woman should at all times have authority on her head, and not simply when we are together in assembly?

J.T. That is what I think is right, and I believe the sisters are coming to see that, and to use the token -- even if it is only a token of the place that she has and the authority she is under.

A.H.G. Has woman a distinctive place in the setting forth of this principle of subjection?

J.T. I would think so. There is no doubt that God is helping us in our households. The principle of the household has come into more prominence than it has been, and I think it is to bring out this very thought, the place that woman has in it, and the place that man has over her and then the place that man has under Christ, and that Christ has under God. It is to bring out the great thought of order; divine order in God -- God being everything.

J.T.S. May not the very fact of the token being worn afford opportunity for testimony; testimony to Christ really?

J.T. Just so; and the household underlies that. That is to say the place that man has, and then the

place that woman has under man, and the place that man has under Christ, and then the place that Christ has under God. It is remarkable that God stoops or condescends to give us all this instruction, so that He might see His own order in the assembly, and I believe the first day of the week has acquired a greater place because of this, and these meetings that we have, too, on Saturday afternoons, have acquired a place for instruction for all the brethren.

Ques. Is it right to make clear that for formal prayer or prophesying a woman requires a real covering; the token you have spoken of would not be sufficient for that?

J.T. Not in the assembly service, but in the household I believe it is wise to have it.

Ques. To wear the token?

J.T. Just so.

Ques. But when you kneel down to pray for the gospel should the women then have a hat on, or a covering?

J.T. Surely, and, as far as I know, they do.

A.J.G. And in a woman's individual prayer when she kneels down at home?

J.T. I would think so, especially of course if it is a household and she is not the only one in it. The idea of a household is not simply man and woman, but children too. Because God intends children to be brought into it all, for they are the ones coming forward. The Lord is taking one after another and others are taking their place, and the great thing is that they should carry on this great idea of imitation as we have it in this chapter, "Be my imitators, even as I also am of Christ".

Ques. Are not children very observant of order, and do they not take it on quickly, and God helps them?

J.T. I am sure that is so.

C.H. Is it instructive that after Paul has insisted on the place which the woman has, he says in verse 11, "However, neither is woman without man, nor man without woman, in the Lord", as though they are both necessary in that particular sphere?

J.T. They are necessary. Why should not God have a right to create humanity? He has created others especially angels, but why should He not have a right to do it, and therefore He must have this order carried out in the assemblies, even amongst ourselves.

Ques. Do I understand that the token of authority on a woman's head does not give her the authority to pray or to prophesy? What is the authority?

J.T. Well, the authority is given her; that is to say, God, Christ, man, woman -- four great thoughts. The word 'authority' is a word that God Himself has formed. God has made man's mouth and given him the authority to speak and enabled him, as He did Adam, to name the creatures. So typically Christ named us; we are all under Christ. He knows the name of every one of us, and God has great pleasure in all this being worked out; we are in the period in which it is being worked out, and the thing is to pursue it and make it effective practically in households, and then in the assembly, in the saints, in men and women, and in the children even. God is working in the children, bringing them into the truth; they are getting to know what is meant by it.

C.H. Did the centurion in Luke 7 understand this principle of authority in relation to the Lord? He asked the Lord to speak the word and his servant would be healed? He says "For I also am a man placed under authority". We might have thought that he would have said 'placed in authority',

but he said "under authority, having under myself soldiers". He seems to have said that in relation to the Lord.

J.T. Quite so.

J.McK. Would you encourage sisters to pray aloud vocally in their own rooms? I mean alone. I am thinking of their communion with divine Persons, that they would not merely pray in silence.

J.T. Well, of course, the silence will not prevent God hearing what they say or think. Take the Old Testament, Hannah, for instance, prayed, and the Lord blessed her, and Samuel was the product. I do not know just what your thought is fully, perhaps you will enlarge on what is in your mind?

J.McK. I wondered if the sisters took up more the thought of praying distinctly and audibly, whether it would help to develop spiritual personality, and they would experience help and development.

A.J.G. It says "Hannah spoke in her heart; only her lips moved, but her voice was not heard".

J.T. Quite. Now what do you make of that?

J.McK. I would accept that happily. Of course that is a temple setting, is it not? But I wondered whether in the formation of words with the lips the angels would be able to take account of it.

J.T. Oh! they will; that is to say God has made them; they are at our service. They are the servants of those who shall be heirs of salvation, and then He gives them understanding, so that they understand us. It is wonderful that the angels are so intelligent, but while they are intelligent as servants, they are not heirs of salvation, but they are intelligent, and we are the heirs of salvation.

Ques. In the case of a husband and wife praying together, is it proper for the man to voice the prayer for both of them?

J.T. I think so. Men pray everywhere. It says "I will therefore that the men pray in every place", 1 Timothy 2:8. What would you say about that?

Rem. Yes, that is what I thought. Sometimes it is suggested that the woman should pray too in the presence of her husband.

J.T. Well, I do not know, I did not think of it in that way. Men are said to pray everywhere, and if there is any prayer being made, I think men are to do it, not women. If men are not there, of course, in the headship, the sisters are to do it with children and servants, and the like of that in the house itself.

A.J.G. It would seem to be in keeping with divine order that if a brother and a sister are together in prayer, that God should be approached through the head?

J.T. That is just what I was thinking.

Ques. Would the idea of the manna in any way link on, the head of the house having to provide for all that were in his household?

J.T. Quite so.

J.A.C. Does Peter in his epistle put the responsibility on the husband in saying "Ye husbands likewise, dwell with them according to knowledge, as with a weaker, even the female, vessel, giving them honour, as also fellow-heirs of the grace of life, that your prayers be not hindered".

J.T. Very good. Many a time one has thought of that.

A.H.G. Does the adjustment of things in the households in this way prepare the way for the taking of the Supper and for the service of God?

J.T. Well, the setting here is clearly that. We have the culmination of the subject of headship and then the Lord's supper is worked out from verse 17 to the end.

A.H.G. Would perhaps weakness in relation to the latter part of the Supper and the service of God

be the result of these exercises not having been faced?

J.T. I think that is right. I am encouraged to read this chapter today -- I am encouraged in every moment of it -- because I can see the brethren are concerned about it too. The next reading that we have will be on Ephesians; that is where we get the full thought of Christ and the assembly. We do not get that properly in Romans; the full thought is in Ephesians.

Eu.R. Do the types referred to in chapter 10 make it clear that the position in this epistle is a wilderness one?

J.T. Quite so, very good. But it leads up to the assembly, though the assembly is not always seen in a wilderness position; but the assembly involves the land.

Ques. Is all this instruction in the earlier part of the chapter necessary if we are to come together in assembly?

J.T. Surely, that is just what I was saying. It says in verse 17, "But in prescribing to you on this which I now enter on, I do not praise". So that there was something wrong at Corinth, and he is seeking to put it right, and that is what we would seek to do now as to ourselves. So it goes on to say, "I do not praise, namely, that ye come together, not for the better, but for the worse". That is things were not right, and God was getting no pleasure out of them, which is a very humbling thing. Paul says, "first, when ye come together in assembly" -- notice the word here "in assembly". It is not 'in the assembly' but "in assembly", that means it is the character of the thing -- "I hear there exist divisions among you, and I partly give credit to it" and so forth. So the assembly is in mind now in this section and the service of God is clearly seen set there.

T.W.A. Does that emphasise that there should be no disorder in the assembly?

J.T. Just so; it is not allowed; and the next section (that is beginning at verse 17) shows that. The apostle is very severe in what he is saying, pointing out that there was disorder amongst them.

Ques. You referred earlier in the meeting to "be my imitators". In the close of the previous chapter, he says, "do all things to God's glory". So that if the directions concerning the covering and so on, in the early part of chapter 11 are followed, and the glory of God is considered for, the assembly would be right, would it not?

J.T. Surely. The assembly is the prime thought with God in this matter of His service. We thank Him, too, for the provision made in ministry, and instruction for us, and then in hymns. God has greatly helped the brethren through the hymns that we have. He has provided for us and for his services, in these hymns and they should be pursued, and read and used rightly; not simply that we use one particular hymn constantly for our own purpose, but use them liberally, as God has given them to us. It says, "God, who gives to all freely and reproaches not", and we should thank Him for these hymns that we have, because they greatly augment the service of God and the pleasure that He gets from His people. We are constituted priests unto God, and the word priest is used as to Christ, too; Christ has His own priests.

C.H. Would add that flow out particularly from the memorial side of the Supper?

J.T. Well, I would think so. It can be seen from this section from verse 17 to end that the assembly is prominently before us, the word being used twice, and it is to show that the assembly has a great place as a vessel. It is a vessel for the securing of and maintaining the service of God. The Spirit of God is

in it, and in it as being a vessel. We can see therefore what we are saying is correct, namely that the assembly must have its own place, and it had not its own proper place in the gatherings at Corinth. Therefore if any such condition arises at the present time we have to go over the ground again in this letter, having in mind Paul's place in the assembly. He was the minister of it, and therefore he ought to have the first place, it seems to me, in any matter when we have to deal with the Lord's supper and the service of God of which the Lord's supper is the beginning. The assembly must have its own place, as a vessel, for it is a suitable vessel, in which the service of God can be maintained.

Rem. And it is a very serious thing to despise the assembly of God in any respect whatsoever. It says in verse 22, "do ye despise the assembly of God".

J.T. Quite so, showing that it is possible for us to do that even when we are together. How much also it may be seen in ordinary affairs, and there can be no doubt that chapter 10 is to prepare us for other days of the week. Chapter 10 deals with ordinary days, whereas chapter 11 deals with the first day of the week. It is also seen in Acts 20 where it says that the disciples came together to break bread on the first day of the week.

J.T.S. Ought we to know something of what is said in Luke 24 in connection with the breaking of bread? They related how He was made known to them in the breaking of bread.

J.T. It shows the place it has.

W.S.S. The Supper would provide the divinely given basis for the coming together. There cannot be any service without this coming together.

J.T. So that the first day of the week is the first day of the week, it is not now the seventh day, it is

the first day of the week. It is the day for the breaking of bread and for the service of God.

W.S.S. And apart from the Supper the saints cannot be properly set together?

J.T. No, they cannot be convened properly. Of course, we can convene the assembly for discipline, but generally speaking, the full idea is seen on the first day of the week. We have the Lord's supper and the service of God and of course the preaching of the gospel has its own place too. We can understand that, because Paul's word "my gospel" is peculiarly associated with all those thoughts.

Ques. It would appear that matters of eating and drinking are to be ordered in relation to the Supper. It would not be comely for the sisters to stay at home to cook the dinner?

J.T. I would say that fully. It would be despising the assembly, I would think, and despising the rights of God too.

J.A.C. There were other things at Corinth that could well wait until the apostle came there, but this great matter as to the service of God following the Supper could not wait. So that we are to have this ever prominent in our minds.

J.T. That is the idea exactly. Then think of what God has provided for us and brought down to our own times, this wonderful translation of the Scriptures, and the wonderful ministry too, such as the Collected Writings -- all those volumes of them! We may thus be the more grateful to God for all these things, and follow them up fully, and carry them out, and not let them lie idle.

MANCHESTER -- READING (2)

Ephesians 1:15 - 23; Ephesians 5:22 - 33

J.T. It seems clear that the epistle to the Ephesians was intended to convey the full divine thought as to Christ and the assembly. It will be noted that in this epistle it is not simply man and woman, but husband and wife. Then there is the great place that Christ has according to this first chapter, and then we have the remarkable passage in the last verse of the chapter, "gave him to be head over all things to the assembly, which is his body, the fulness of him who fills all in all". So that whilst God is in mind, and the assembly is in mind, and the saints are in mind, yet it is Christ and the assembly that commands the heart and affords opportunity for us to understand and enter into what is set out in the land of Canaan, for Ephesians has Canaan in mind. It is therefore that part of the land which lies between the Jordan and the Great Sea in which the full thoughts of God are set out. So I suppose we may say freely that we get possibly the greatest thoughts of riches and glory in this epistle. The Spirit of God seems to put everything into it, as if it was the final word as to what God has in mind and what will come to pass in due time as Christ descends and takes us to heaven. We are to be prepared for it already in view of that great event, I thought it would be worthy of an occasion like this to come to Ephesians, for it is our own proper heavenly portion, and I thought it right to begin at this verse of the first chapter, "Wherefore I also". Paul is thinking of himself and his service, "having heard of the faith in the Lord Jesus which is in you, and the love which ye have towards all the saints, do not cease giving thanks for you, making mention of you at my prayers, that the God of our Lord Jesus

Christ, the Father of glory" -- these are wonderful expressions -- "the Father of glory, would give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation", it is not simply 'words' or 'letters' but the spirit of wisdom and revelation, "in the full knowledge of him, being enlightened in the eyes of your heart", it is not simply your minds, "so that ye should know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, and what the surpassing greatness of his power towards us who believe, according to the working of the might of his strength, in which he wrought in the Christ in raising him from among the dead, and he set him down at his right hand in the heavenlies, above every principality, and authority, and power, and dominion, and every name named, not only in this age, but also in that to come; and has put all things under his feet, and gave him to be head over all things to the assembly" -- notice that -- "which is his body, the fulness of him who fills all in all". So that Christ is supreme, and the assembly is with Him joining in it, for the assembly is seen here as having part in the headship.

A.H.G. Would you develop a little more what you emphasised, "head over all things to the assembly"?

J.T. It is just to bring out the greatness of this vessel called the assembly. It has to be remembered however that it is a creature. The assembly is not divine, and yet it is wonderful that the creature should be the bride of Christ and body of Christ. But it is a mystery, and we do well to think of that. So that in chapter 5 he says "I speak as to Christ, and as to the assembly". He is speaking of the husband and wife, but he halts, as it were, to say "I speak as to Christ, and as to the assembly". It is as if he would set us on the way to enter into the heavenly things.

Ques. Do you mean that he is not Head over the assembly here, but that the assembly has part in the position in which He is?

J.T. That is what I understand. It is "head over all things to the assembly". It is not of it, but to it.

A.J.G. Does that involve that the influence of His headship over all things is exercised by means of the assembly?

J.T. That is what I would think. It is by means of it, as you say, showing what a marvellous thing the assembly is. It says "Christ also loved the assembly, and has delivered himself up for it". You could hardly think of anything greater to be given. He gave Himself for it.

W.S.S. The assembly would be in the intelligent understanding of the universal headship of Christ.

J.T. Just so, that is good.

P.L. So that the glory of these reciprocal relations between Christ and the assembly will give tone and character to all that is beneath.

J.T. I would say that. The word over is used, "head over all things to the assembly". She is thus really brought into the headship.

J.S.E. Was the type in Genesis 2 approached by the Spirit from the angle of rest?

J.T. Well the word is that the rib was built. It says "Jehovah Elohim built the rib that he had taken from Man into a woman". It is an immense thought.

Ques. Would it be right to say that Adam as set over all things and Eve as associated with him correspond to what we have in Ephesians 1?

J.T. Just so. And we had better read again from verse 22 of chapter 5, because it is such a wonderful passage as to what we are dealing with. Now it is to be noticed that whilst the apostle is speaking of much in the way of truth, yet he turns aside in

verse 32 and says "This mystery is great", which is a matter we all should notice, and then he says "but I speak as to Christ, and as to the assembly". He turns aside to speak of the great thought of the mystery -- Christ and the assembly. It is as if he was so full of it that he must turn aside, even although they were great things of which he was speaking.

Ques. Why do you think the "Saviour of the body" comes in in this remarkable passage?

J.T. I think it is a question of our bodies, which are weak and subject to illnesses and the like. We can count on the Lord to save us instead of trying medicines and the doctor. Of course, I am not saying a word against that, but it is as if everything is superseded in his mind, in the light that He is the Saviour of the body. So we can count on that; it shows the preciousness of a saint as a member of the assembly.

Rem. The wonderful thing being that in these bodies of ours we are given the privilege of being descriptive of what is proper to the assembly.

J.T. Just so. He says "I speak as to Christ, and as to the assembly". It is as if that diverted his mind, because the thought was so immense in his mind, so delightful, I should say glorious, that he should turn aside to say that.

J.P. Is there something to be learned from the way the passage says "I speak as to Christ, and as to the assembly"? He seems to draw attention to what is in the assembly.

J.T. There are more words devoted to what is in his mind than necessary, so to speak, because the subject is so great and lovely and glorious. I believe that is the idea, and that we should learn to read Ephesians from this point of view. It is not simply a man and woman, but a man and his wife -- husband and wife. Then the word 'own' comes in. "Husbands, love your own wives", and also, "Wives, submit

yourselves to your own husbands"; it restricts the word fully to its object.

W.S.S. I suppose that expression, "I speak as to Christ, and as to the assembly" would really cover all Paul's ministry?

J.T. I should think so. He reduces it to one great and glorious thought; that is what Ephesians really implies.

Ques. You emphasised, in the reading of the scripture earlier, the expression "the Father of glory". Were you thinking of the particular glory, attaching to Christ and the assembly and how we can come into the light of that glory as understanding, and as being filled with the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the full knowledge of Him?

J.T. It is a wonderful passage -- "the Father of glory". Elsewhere, we have "from glory to glory", but this passage is wonderful really, it is overwhelming if we had heart for it. It is what we are coming into and that is what we are now by the Spirit, because the fact of the Spirit being in the assembly is wonderful. He is the Spirit of glory, but then we have the "Father of glory", and that is the thing that strikes your mind peculiarly.

W.S.S. Another word you emphasised was "the spirit of wisdom and revelation" -- not merely the knowledge of things in terms, but the joy of it in the heart and soul.

J.T. Just so. It is what we come into, even ourselves this very day, the Spirit being here, makes everything real to us. It is not mere knowledge, but reality in the power of the Spirit.

Ques. Is that why it says "enlightened in the eyes of your heart"?

J.T. Just so. The heart is the seat of the affections, of course, and the eyes are to work out what is in the heart.

J.S.E. You made a short remark this afternoon on the value to us of Paul's imprisonment in view of his ministry.

J.T. I think that is to be noticed too, because we might all profitably go over the ground of his imprisonment and how many years of imprisonment he spent. The Lord had said previously "I will shew to him how much he must suffer" (Acts 9:16), which shows that the Lord had taken him up for suffering. He was intended to represent the Lord in his sufferings, and to bring the sufferings of Christ so near to us in a man, in Paul.

Eu.R. He tells us it was on our account: "For this reason I Paul, prisoner of the Christ Jesus for you nations", Ephesians 3:1. It is really our glory, is it not?

J.T. It is well to connect other passages with that because the field is so rich; and so chapter 4: 1 would enhance all that, "I, the prisoner in the Lord, exhort you therefore to walk worthy of the calling wherewith ye have been called ..." It is the enlargement of what you see in the first verse of the third chapter. The epistle to the Ephesians is so full of spiritual riches and glory.

Ques. What is in mind in relation to verse 30 where it says "We are of his flesh, and of his bones"? In Genesis 2:23 it is in the reverse order.

J.T. The passage really begins with verse 28, "So ought men also to love their own wives" -- notice that it is not simply 'their wives', but "their own wives as their own bodies: he that loves his own wife loves himself. For no one has ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, even as also the Christ the assembly, for we are members of his body; [we are of his flesh, and of his bones]". That portion in brackets is, of course, questionable, but anyway there it is. "Because of this a man shall leave his father and mother, and shall be united to his wife, and the two shall be one

flesh. This mystery is great, but I speak as to Christ, and as to the assembly". That is the end that I thought we should see the epistle is devoted to. "I speak as to Christ, and as to the assembly".

Ques. Would you say a word regarding the distinction between the assembly as introduced in the first chapter in connection with the operations of God in resurrection and exaltation, and as in chapter 5 where it is brought in in connection with the operations of Christ Himself in love?

J.T. Well, it seems to be the greatness of the assembly and how it is linked up with Christ as His body, but we should not overlook that God is in the whole matter. We ought to remember that the Lord Himself sent letters to the assemblies, and so His idea is to bring out what the assembly is to Him. That is really what it is, and now we should follow the thing up; so that we have what the Spirit says in addition to what the Lord says. "He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies". That is, there is the double thought in it, what the Lord says by Himself, and then what the Spirit says, and the word is added to that, "He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says". It is as if there is the idea that the Spirit's speaking is in a certain sense more important for us to follow up than even what Christ says. The importance of the Spirit at the present time cannot be over-stated because it is a question of the ending of the dispensation, and the Spirit coming into what belongs to Him, as a divine Person. He has always shown Himself so lowly in everything that the Lord's word in Revelation is "He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says".

Eu.R. It greatly helped me some time ago when you said that the spirit of revelation involves that the believer has the spirit of all that is revealed and thus ability to take it in.

J.T. Quite so. One is trying to impress the dear brethren who are here today that we all may pursue the thought of the book of the Revelation. John is the writer of the Revelation, "I John", he says. The other apostles, of course, have their own part in the service, but John has a peculiar part. He was not however a minister of the assembly, as Paul was, and it is Paul writing to the Ephesians here, so that Paul comes first in all this.

A.J.G. Would you say that the Spirit is labouring at the present time to bring the assembly into the consciousness of her own distinctive place in the affections of Christ?

J.T. I think so. That is, she should suitably meet Him, because He is coming. It says in 1 Thessalonians 4, "the Lord himself, with an assembling shout, with archangel's voice and with trump of God, shall descend from heaven; and the dead in Christ shall rise first; then we, the living who remain, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall be always with the Lord". It is the Lord Himself -- those words should be taken into account -- who shall descend from heaven with an assembling shout. The word assembling is enlarged in the sense of its governing the word shout. We are all coming in for that; we ourselves are the ones that are coming in for it, for we are of the assembly. It is a question of the assembly; it is not an Israelitish shout. The Lord will have great feelings for Israel too; but it is not an Israelitish shout; it is an assembling shout.

Ques. And does that really involve absolute love towards all the saints?

J.T. Quite so. The Lord's own affections. It is an assembling shout.

W.S.S. I would like to ask in connection with your reference to the Holy Spirit, whether the service

of the Spirit would be involved in verse 26 of chapter 5: "in order that he might sanctify it, purifying it by the washing of water by the word"?

J.T. Quite so, it must be. It is the Spirit of God, of course, but then the Spirit is a divine Person. We do not say that in the economy He is equal to the Father positionally; at the same time what was before? The economy is, as you might say, limited, and introduced in time. There was something there before that we do not understand, it is mystery; it is beyond our understanding. There is the economy into which we have come, the power is in the Spirit, but there is something more than that, and we have to remember that there is such a thing as mystery, and things that one can hardly put into speech now. But there it is, that there is such a thing as mystery, and that the assembly is the theme as the vessel of the Spirit. That is what strikes the mind more than anything else -- that it belongs to us because we form the assembly, and I would say without hesitation, Ephesians, in that sense, is the greatest epistle; it is the greatest communication from God that we have.

J.S.E. As the Lord makes Himself known to us in the breaking of bread, does this give the Spirit an opportunity to help us in the joy of these relationships so preciously set out here?

J.T. So we value the Lord's day morning, because, as we have said already today, the first day of the week is the greatest day; it is the day of the assembly: "The first day of the week, we being assembled to break bread". That is the great day of the assembly because it is the day on which the Lord's supper is celebrated, and so in the chapter we had this afternoon, the apostle says, "It is not to eat the Lord's supper". It ought to have been, but it was not; they were defective in what they were doing, they were not doing it in order. Therefore we must be on our guard as to whether we are

doing things rightly, that is doing them in order, for God is the God of order.

Ques. Would you encourage the saints to pray about these great features of the truth? I am thinking of the weight of these two prayers of Paul.

J.T. I would say that. To illustrate it, if a great crisis comes on among the brethren as it may at any time, what we would do would be to pray; maybe we would come together specially in any given locality to pray about the matter. But what can there be greater than what we are dealing with now, that is in this epistle, and there should be prayer about this matter because it is so great.

Rem. We do not often hear prayer along these lines.

J.T. I am sure that is true, but do you not think it is so?

Rem. I do.

J.T. If any crisis arises, and one is apt to arise any time, not that I would be foreboding; one would just wait on God. But at the same time, things may happen, as things have happened before and a crisis may arise, and then, of course, we pray, but why should we not pray about this matter and make a special thing of it, that we should come into the fulness of what is called Canaan. God speaks of having espied the land, espied it Himself for His people. He says, it is "the ornament of all lands". It was a land flowing with milk and honey (Ezekiel 20:6).

Rem. Caleb says, "Moses the servant of Jehovah sent me from Kadesh-barnea to search out the land; and I brought him word again as it was in my heart", Joshua 14:7.

J.T. That is just exactly what I was thinking of.

Rem. And he goes on to say, "And my brethren that had gone up with me made the heart of the

people melt; but I wholly followed Jehovah my God".

A.H.G. Is the understanding of the glory of this essential if we are to take up the service of God intelligently?

J.T. Exactly, that is what we are trying to get at this evening, this great thought of the epistle to the Ephesians.

H.C. It says of Moses in Deuteronomy 34 that Jehovah showed him the whole land from the top of Pisgah. Would that link up with what you are saying?

J.T. That was a great privilege that Jehovah gave to Moses before he died, and no one knows where he was buried. How great an honour to be put upon the mediator!

J.T.S. You spoke in London of Paul presenting the assembly as the body. Have we the greatest thoughts of the body in this letter?

J.T. I think so. As I said, I do not know any greater passage, in a sense, than the epistle to the Ephesians. It is a peculiar epistle; it is the assembly's epistle, and it deals with Christ and the assembly. Of course, God Himself comes into it, for we can never forget what God is and what His portion is, but there is such a thing as something special as to Christ and the assembly, and that is in Ephesians.

Ques. In verse 23 of chapter 1, it says "the fulness of him who fills all in all". To whom does the word him refer?

J.T. First of all it says, "Power, and dominion, and every name named, not only in this age, but also in that to come; and has put all things under his feet, and gave him to be head over all things to the assembly, which is his body, the fulness of him who fills all in all". That is Christ; what do you say yourself?

Rem. I do not know that I could say very much; but it is such a marvellous statement as to the assembly's place that we can hardly take it in.

J.T. I think the wording that has been re-read would show that what is in mind is Christ and it works out in chapter 5. If you will allow me, I would like the whole passage from verse 15 to the end read again, because it is so magnificent. We ought to get this whole passage into our minds and hearts, "raising him from among the dead", that is Christ, "set him down ... in the heavenlies" -- that is Christ again. It is clearly Christ who is in mind in that passage.

W.S.S. Would it help to refer to verse 10 of chapter 4, "He that descended is the same who has also ascended up above all the heavens, that he might fill all things"?

J.T. Well, just so.

D.L. And verse 10 in chapter 1, "To head up all things in the Christ".

J.T. Well, that is right, of course.

A.J.G. Does not this expression "the fulness of him who fills all in all" give a striking testimony to the deity of Christ?

J.T. Quite so.

E.J.B. Is the greatness of the assembly stressed in the fact that after all these glorious things are spoken of that God has done with Christ, the assembly is brought in as the crown and completion of it all?

J.T. Quite, but then we must not forget God. God must be excepted in all these things. It says in 1 Corinthians 15, "except him who put all things in subjection to him", that is God. God had done this. In the passage from verse 20 onwards, it is what God has done and does.

Ques. Can you help us as to the expression "fulness of him"?

A.J.G. Could you amplify that a little as to what we are to understand by it?

J.T. Well, we have such an expression as the fulness of God; that is a question of God. It may be the fulness of God, and sometimes the divine Persons are interchanged, and it might be the fulness of Christ. It is a question of words and how they are used and their context.

P.L. It is a scene of glory, "the fulness of him", is it the outshining?

J.T. Quite so, it would be that.

J.S.E. Is it the Holy Spirit's peculiar emphasis on the distinctiveness and glory of the assembly as suited to Christ?

J.T. I would say that is quite right.

A.J.G. And does it involve that all that can be known of God by the creature shines out through Christ and the assembly?

J.T. Quite so. All that can be. It is good that a modifying word should be used, because we might just as well come back again to what is abstract, for there are abstract things. Take the Godhead; we have in Colossians 1, "all the fulness ... was pleased to dwell", and then in the second chapter, "in him dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily". Well, both these things have the same meaning, but where we have "all the fulness" it seems to accentuate more the thought that it is Christ in His greatness and glory; it is Christ Himself, "In him all the fulness ... was pleased to dwell".

A.H.G. Would this thought of "the fulness of him" be the result of what is spoken of earlier "and gave him to be head over all things to the assembly"?

J.T. I would say that. But I think we had better go on to chapter 5 again. How much God is thinking of His own thoughts now in this book as compared with 1 Corinthians. He has His own thoughts

before Him, what He has in Christ and the assembly. So it is that we have in verse 22, "Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands, as to the Lord, for a husband is head of the wife, as also the Christ is head of the assembly". Then again "He" -- it is emphatic -- "is Saviour of the body. But even as the assembly is subjected to the Christ, so also wives to their own husbands in everything". So now what came to my mind to be enlarged on is that He is Saviour of the body, and then again "even as the assembly is subjected to the Christ". That is to say the assembly is not simply subject here, although it is subject, but the question is what God's mind as to it is. That is to say it is subjected to Christ, not simply subject, but subjected. It is God's mind, and that always has to be kept before us. The attitude of the assembly is that it is subjected to Christ. It is God's mind as to it as in the whole realm of creation. God has His mind, and He has got His mind in this point that He has subjected the assembly to Christ.

J.T.S. Would it be worked out in the way of love?

J.T. It would be, surely, nothing less than love will fit here. But still we have to keep in mind that there is such a word as 'subjected', not simply 'subject' but 'subjected'. It is God's mind as to the assembly, and that would work out in being subject.

C.H. Can you help us as to the aspect of the assembly in chapter 1 where she is seen as wholly of God and in this chapter where there appear to be blemishes which call for the service of Christ?

J.T. It is not said there are spots or blemishes, it is just what is required in the mind of God.

J.S.E. Does the note relative to those words help in that connection? It says that these words: 'loved', 'delivered', 'sanctify', 'purifying', may be coincident

or consequent one on another. They could be taken either way.

J.T. Spots and wrinkles and such things are all possible. These words are to prevent them, because they are possible in our histories.

Ques. Is the great thought the words, "having no spot, or wrinkle, or any of such things"?

J.T. Quite so, it is the idea of prevention. The assumption is not that the spots or wrinkles are there; but that they are prevented. We know ourselves they are possible to any one of us.

Rem. So that at any given moment the assembly is perfect in the mind of God.

J.T. Exactly. It can be taken up to heaven at any time. Viewed in the abstract way, it can be taken to heaven at any time.

Eu.R. Does not the last part of the verse make that very clear, "but that it might be holy and blameless"? The same words are used of the sons in chapter 1.

J.T. It is in order to prevent anything of the kind, because it is possible to happen.

Eu.R. But you are applying that to those who form the assembly rather than to the assembly as such?

J.T. I do not think it would be right to apply it to the assembly as such because, viewed in the abstract, the assembly is at all times ready to be taken up to heaven. To learn how to view things abstractly, is one of the most difficult things we have to do.

Rem. A pearl is a pearl, and in that light the assembly has no spot or wrinkle that has to be removed from it.

J.T. I suppose so, I do not know enough about pearls; but I can see that there are things that are liable to mark us but not attaching to the assembly in a concrete sense as altogether according to God.

Ephesians means that; the language is anticipative.

A.J.G. Would you say that there is something that corresponds with this service of Christ when we are together in assembly to enable us to take up the abstract thought in our own minds?

J.T. That is true; how could we dare to bring in such thoughts otherwise? We must remember there is such a thing as abstract. Scripture is full of that, especially John and Paul. The assembly is always viewed abstractly as perfect.

J.T.S. Would the Lord say, in that abstract view, "Thou art all fair, my love; and there is no spot in thee"? Song of Songs 4:7.

J.T. Very good, that is right.

P.L. The Holy Spirit being the great power for abstraction?

J.T. Quite so.

Ques. Does chapter 5 bring out the correspondence between the humanity of Christ and that in which the assembly has part? I am thinking of the words "no one has ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, even as also the Christ the assembly".

J.T. Quite so. It is to bring out what God has ordained in humanity in the creation of it. Then if we suppose we are just about to be caught up to heaven, and we shall be presently, our mortal bodies are changed by the Spirit. Then we are perfect and ready for heaven, and so shall we be for ever with the Lord. We are going to be perfect as the One who is perfect and who is up there. It is a marvellous thing to have an abstract idea of the things of God before us.

A.J.G. And that can take place in the twinkling of an eye.

J.T. Yes, that is what it says.

Ques. Could you please clarify for some of us the expression that has just been used, that the Spirit

will bring in the change, and Philippians 3 where it says, "we await the Lord Jesus Christ as Saviour, who shall transform our body of humiliation"?

J.T. We should read both those passages, "But if the Spirit of him that has raised up Jesus from among the dead dwell in you, he that has raised up Christ from among the dead shall quicken your mortal bodies also on account of his Spirit which dwells in you", Romans 8:11. "We await the Lord Jesus Christ as Saviour, who shall transform our body of humiliation into conformity to his body of glory", Philippians 3:20, 21. That is to say it is the Lord's own action, but then it is also the Spirit's action.

A.J.G. Do you mean that the Lord uses the Spirit for that purpose?

J.T. Yes, quite so, "on account of his Spirit which dwells in you".

W.S.S. Is it not speaking of the abstract? You referred to the abstract, and is it not our great privilege to contemplate things in the abstract?

J.T. Yes, I am sure it is. As soon as we move from the earth by the power of Christ and the quickening power of the Spirit, everything is perfect to go into heaven.

Rem. "Into conformity to his body of glory".

J.T. Quite so, the Lord is going to make us after His own pattern.

Ques. Are the two operations in that way brought together in 1 Corinthians 15? It says, "the last Adam a quickening spirit", and then later, "We shall not all fall asleep, but we shall all be changed", as though the two Persons of the Godhead operate in view of that change.

J.T. The last Adam is Christ, and the Spirit is the Spirit, and He is the One who quickens us according to Romans 8:11, "on account of his Spirit which dwells in you". If you read it again, you will see the point of it.

Eu.R. The change is only with regard to the body.

J.T. The mortal body, that is, we are taken up to life as quickened by the Spirit.

Eu.R. That involves that the believer is ready for it now and consequently can function in the service of God.

J.T. We are if we are. When we are ready, when we are caught up, all is finished. I mean to say, it is one of the actions of the Spirit to do that. We are not ready for it until we are ready, and when we are ready the thing will happen.

P.L. And that will be the crowning service of the Spirit.

J.T. It is a great finish to a great work, but then the Spirit's work is not over because He will be here operating in Israel in a millennial day. There is a great work to be done yet; but the assembly, is being taken up first and finished, and we are waiting for the finish because we are not all ready. It is a question of time to be perfected.

MANCHESTER -- READING (3)

John 20:1 - 31

J.T. It is thought that the first day of the week ought to be signalised by what relates to the service of God. This chapter is therefore suggested, having in mind the idea of the Lord's coming to us as seen in the chapter. It is not that He is with us all the time, as we see in Matthew 28. There is no reference to His ascension in Matthew, but John stresses the idea of ascension, and the chapter indicates that the thought of this enters into the service of God. The fact that Mary Magdalene is prominent seems to suggest that the assembly is portrayed somewhat in her according to the message that the Lord sends by her, so that there is a certain liveliness which should be before us on the first day of the week, in view of the place the assembly has in the divine economy. It is not a monthly idea now, but a weekly idea. In the old economy the monthly thought was more prominent, whereas in christianity it is the first day of the week; it is a weekly matter. The place that sisters have in the economy, I suppose, is also suggested in Mary, and she is selected by the Lord to take a message, and such a message as is indicated here, that is, the ascension to the Father and to God.

Ques. Would it be right to say that she is trustworthy as a vessel and comely as a sister?

J.T. That is good. She must have commended herself. She is spoken of as one from whom the Lord had cast out seven demons, so that she must have been greatly indebted to the Lord for the sense of relief that He had brought to her. It would indicate that the grace that is brought to us and works in us is in mind; it ought to affect us in regard of what God receives from us, and what the

Father receives from us. Here it is the Father and God: "My Father and your Father, and to my God and your God". The position of the disciples is thus established in relation to God. Then, on the other hand, Thomas is discredited at first because he is not believing; he wants to see things instead of believing. It is not the time of sight; it is the time of faith at present. The Lord says in verse 29, "Because thou hast seen me thou has believed, blessed they who have not seen and have believed". I suppose the future dispensation of millennial blessings will imply what is seen, whereas now it is the time of faith.

W.S.S. Is ascension the dominant thought here?

J.T. I think so. The burden of the message through Mary is ascension to the Father and to God.

W.S.S. Does that bring us into the true christian position?

J.T. I think so, although of course we cannot say that the full christian position is in the gospels. We must wait for the Spirit and for that we must wait for the ascension.

W.S.S. I remembered you emphasised at Glasgow that resurrection is not the true christian platform.

J.T. Well, that is true; we must have ascension, and the message through Mary implies that; in fact it is the burden of it. Then added to it is the thought of the address to the brethren and the references to Christ's Father and our Father and to Christ's God and our God. That is to say the full result in the view of this gospel is not only resurrection but ascension. The truth of the resurrection is the guarantee of the solution of the question of power. The power of God is by the resurrection, but there has been considerable thought as to the Lord being here all the time. Some years back it was a great point that had to be contested about. We have the

idea of His coming to us as well as coming for us. His coming for us is still a future thing, but coming to us is a present thing. We count on it on the first day of the week.

Ques. It is not stressed that He ascends to heaven here, but to the Father and to God. Does that call attention to the Person of the Father?

J.T. Would you not say further, to family relationships between the saints and God. That is to say, His Father is our Father.

Rem. I mean it is not the idea of a place here, so much.

J.T. Just so. It is to a Person.

W.L. Why does the Lord mention the Father first? We often say 'Our God' and then 'Our Father'.

J.T. I suppose the best answer to that is because this chapter speaks of it so definitely. The message is that very thing. He says in verse 17, "Touch me not, for I have not yet ascended to my Father; but go to my brethren and say to them, I ascend to my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God". That is to say, we have the identity of the relationship between the Father and Christ, and between the Father and ourselves, so that the position is very intimate and very glorious too. The chapter is wonderful in that sense, as establishing the intimacy between Christ and the Father and between us and the Father. It shows that there is no discrepancy between the Lord's relation with the Father and our relation with the Father.

Ques. Would it be right then to say that family relationships are to dominate the position?

J.T. I would say that fully, and of course Matthew would suppose too that in some sense it would mark the coming dispensation. Matthew would indicate that, because the Lord says, "Be ye therefore perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect".

A.J.G. Is it the case that every family is named of the Father, and thus has some relationship with Him, but that the assembly's portion is distinguished by the Father being known as Christ's Father and our Father?

J.T. I should think so. It brings out the identity of the Lord's relation with His Father and our relation with His Father. It is wonderful, I think, that it should be so presented; that the relation between Christ and the Father is identical with that between the saints and the Father. I think it is one of the most remarkable things in Scripture, and shows the wonderful relation in which we stand to the Father in christianity, as compared with what will be in the millennium, because that will not be on the same ground. We are the first family in the whole universe, indeed the greatest family.

P.L. The only family indwelt by the Spirit of God's Son?

J.T. I would say that. So we have also the thought of indwelling in the first chapter of this gospel, "The Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we have contemplated his glory, a glory as of an only-begotten with a father), full of grace and truth". It seems to me that we should accustom ourselves to the thought of distinguishing the first day of the week and all that enters into it in this sense more definitely. "And on the first day of the week Mary of Magdala comes in early morn to the tomb". It is not the first day of the month, but the first day of the week; and so it is in Acts 20 where the disciples were assembled to break bread.

A.H.G. Do you mean that on the first day of the week we enter into these matters in a peculiar and distinctive way?

J.T. I think so, and surely the difference between Sunday and Monday, as we call it, should be observed. The Lord's day has a peculiar place

among the days of the week. I am afraid that saints take too much liberty in doing things on the first day of the week as if it were the same as any other day.

Eu.R. It stresses it again in verse 19, "When therefore it was evening on that day, which was the first day of the week".

P.L. "This is the day that Jehovah hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it", Psalm 118:24.

J.T. Just so. Why should we not? He has distinguished it Himself, and why should we not distinguish it and honour it, more than the other days.

Ques. And if we do not take full advantage of our privileges would you say we become like Thomas who was sceptical?

J.T. Just so. We are dealing with the first day of the week, particularly as seen in this chapter, and it says in verse 19, "When therefore it was evening on that day, which was the first day of the week, and the doors shut where the disciples were, through fear of the Jews, Jesus came" -- notice that, He came; He was not there all the time, He came, "and stood in the midst, and says to them, Peace be to you". Then He proceeds to do things and to show them the greatness of their portion. "And having said this, he shewed to them his hands and his side. The disciples rejoiced therefore, having seen the Lord. Jesus said therefore again to them, Peace be to you: as the Father sent me forth, I also send you. And having said this, he breathed into them; and says to them, Receive the Holy Spirit, whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted to them; whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained". And then we have Thomas introduced, showing that he was unbelieving; he had lost ground.

J.T.S. What is the significance of the Lord showing to them His hands and His side?

J.T. I suppose the hands would indicate what He did for them, but then the side would be the actual giving up of His life. His death is involved in that.

J.S.E. Does this allusion to His side give some inkling of what is in Ephesians 5? He "loved the assembly, and has delivered himself up for it".

J.T. Just so. He gave Himself for it.

J.T.S. Would the Lord detain us a little in this relation after the actual breaking of bread? I am thinking now of the place that the assembly is to have with Him and to Him.

J.T. Therefore you have the idea of brethren. Is that what you have in mind?

J.T.S. Yes, and the assembly.

J.T. Just so. Well, the message through Mary implied that: "Go to my brethren".

J.T.S. What is in my mind is perhaps the tendency, after the breaking of bread, to move quickly to the Father.

J.T. I have noticed that, and I am not so sure that we did not have it today in our meeting. I think the same thing happened, and we proceeded too quickly. We did not give full time for the thought of the brethren, but would you say more what you observe, have you observed that?

J.T.S. Yes, I think one has been in different meetings at different times and perhaps there is not just the definiteness always that there might be as to the place brethren are to have, and then particularly the place that the assembly is to have in her marital relations with Christ, before we move forward.

J.T. Just so, very good, so He calls it "my assembly". He says to Peter, "I also, I say unto thee that thou art Peter, and on this rock I will build my assembly". He is left with this special communication, "on this rock I will build" -- not God's assembly but -- "my assembly".

Ques. It is quite a frequent thing for the thought of the brethren scarcely to be alluded to after the breaking of bread. Should that thought come in prior to proceeding to the thought of Christ and the assembly?

J.T. I do not just follow what you are saying. Can you illustrate it by what you have seen amongst the brethren? Did you see it this morning in our meeting?

Rem. I think so. There was very little reference to the brethren before the marital thought was taken on, and I think you have stressed the importance of understanding that only those who are kindred to Christ as His brethren can be united to Him.

J.T. I think that is perfectly true, I suppose it might be seen in the type in Genesis 24.

Rem. You have illustrated it previously from that section of Genesis.

A.J.G. Does not the thought of the brethren from one point of view go right through the service, because the Lord says in relation to the brethren, "I will declare thy name to my brethren; in the midst of the assembly will I sing thy praises", Hebrews 2:12.

J.T. I think that is good. Will you enlarge a little more on it?

A.J.G. I fully went with what our brother was saying, but I was just enquiring whether the thoughts of the brethren and the assembly do not go on collaterally right through, so that in Hebrews the Lord seems to take pleasure in them, as those who are worthy of Him, and then the response to the declaration takes form in this dignified vessel, the assembly.

J.T. Just so.

J.T.S. Would the passage in the Song of Songs, chapter 4, set it out, "Thou hast ravished my heart, my sister, my spouse"? And then we have later

another reference, "How fair is thy love, my sister, my spouse!". Are the two thoughts of what is kindred and what is marital there?

J.T. It is quite clear; we have often had it before. A person must be a sister before she can be a wife. She must have the sisterly quality and relation before she can have the wifely quality and relation. That is as clear as anything can be in the scripture.

E.J.S. Do we see the two thoughts in Psalm 45:7, "therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy companions", and then in verse 11, "And the king will desire thy beauty; for he is thy Lord, and worship thou him"?

J.T. Quite so, "He is thy Lord and worship thou him", but let me get a little more fully what is in the Psalm as to marital relations. In verse 9 we have "Kings' daughters are among thine honourable women; upon thy right hand doth stand the queen in gold of Ophir". Well that is it; that is very full, and confirms what we have said. It says, "he is thy Lord, and worship thou him", but her beauty is to be observed. He observes her beauty.

Eu.R. In Genesis 24:27 the nameless servant gives thanks, "I being in the way, Jehovah has led me to the house of my master's brethren". That seems to be the basis of everything in that chapter? Rebecca is before him, but he does not at this moment give thanks for her, but that he is brought to the house of "my master's brethren", I wondered if that did not suggest what you are saying, that we need to clothe ourselves with this great thought of Christ's brethren before we could move on to the marital relationship with Him.

J.T. That is quite right, I am sure. I do not know that we need to proceed further on this point in our chapter.

E.B.S. I was going to ask you whether you would say something more on our distinguishing the first

day of the week. Is it that our behaviour outside the meetings, as it were, is going to have a bearing on the meeting as we come to it? Would you mind saying a little more on what you meant?

J.T. Well, I tried to show that we are not distinguishing sufficiently the first day of the week from the other days, because the first day of the week is distinguished in this chapter we have just been reading and then in Acts 20. Perhaps if we read Acts 20 it will make it clear to us.

E.B.S. "And the first day of the week, we being assembled to break bread, Paul discoursed to them, about to depart on the morrow. And he prolonged the discourse till midnight".

J.T. Notice the word 'assembled' too. It is to be noted. The word 'assembly', is implied, but then the assembly is a vessel in a marital relation.

W.S.S. Should we understand this thought of brethren better if we had a better appreciation of what they mean to the Lord? It must have been a wonderful moment, for Him to say, "Go to my brethren".

J.T. Yes, and that is what gives great distinction to John 20, "Go to my brethren and say to them, I ascend to my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God". Well, that is great distinction, I would say. It gives very great distinction to the first day of the week, that the message is sent on that day, as the word is at the beginning. "On the first day of the week Mary of Magdala comes in early morn to the tomb". It was the first day of the week, so that that day has peculiar distinction above all the other days, and I do not know whether the brethren recognise that fully. There is a spiritual obligation, not to place the first day of the week on the same level as the other days.

Ques. And does Mary therefore outshine the disciples, and does she receive a greater message?

It says in verse 10, "The disciples therefore went away again to their own home. But Mary stood at the tomb weeping without". I was wondering whether the disciples in going away to their own home, missed something of what was happening on the first day of the week.

J.T. Mary did not go to her own home, but the others did and I think that ought to be mentioned too, that they did not maintain the full thought of the first day of the week. Of course, they had not got the Spirit yet, but still the principles of the Spirit are supposed to be in this chapter.

A.J.G. So that John would have in mind to distinguish the first day of the week, when he said, "I became in the Spirit on the Lord's day".

J.T. Quite so, and so here it says in verse 22, "And having said this, he breathed into them, and says to them, Receive the Holy Spirit" and so forth. That happened before Pentecost and we have to distinguish between Pentecost and this chapter, because the Lord said, "Receive the Holy Spirit". There are two ideas, the one in Pentecost in Acts 2 and the other one here.

A.H.G. Would the Holy Spirit seek to energise us in a special way on the first day of the week?

J.T. I think He would. I think the Holy Spirit would not be behind in the actual features taught, especially this particular feature, as it says, "Jesus said therefore again to them, Peace be to you, as the Father sent me forth, I also send you. And having said this, he breathed into them, and says to them, Receive the Holy Spirit" -- or 'Receive Holy Spirit', as it is literally -- "Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted to them; whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained". The Holy Spirit Himself is involved in all this, so that, I would say, He would afterwards always distinguish the first day of the week, in view of all the services that are entering

into it. We lose a great deal as to the dispensation if we do not do this, because the Spirit of God speaks of it, and the Lord Himself shows that He has it in mind too.

Ques. Do the appearings of Jesus give fulness to the thought of the first day of the week, along with the Spirit's activities? The appearings of Jesus seem to come in distinctively on the first day of the week; in John 20 and also in Mark 16 it says, "the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary of Magdala".

J.T. I think so. That is just what I am trying to say, because it says here, "Receive the Holy Spirit". That is said by the Lord in verse 22, "And having said this, he breathed into them, and says to them, Receive the Holy Spirit". I do not know that we could get anything more distinct or more definite than that, as to the place the first day of the week holds in the economy. Of course, the devil would destroy it all by the way the first day of the week is treated in the world. All sorts of things that are done on any other day are done on the first day of the week, and I am sure the saints should be a rebuke to all that.

A.J.G. Do you mean that this would have in view our being enabled to move in heavenly grace on that day?

J.T. Quite so, I was just going to add "in heavenly grace", and that our first day of the week implies that we are going to heaven. We are apt to go there any moment, and the first day of the week should distinguish us to that extent.

Ques. We would like to see as many out to the Lord's day afternoon reading as there are to the breaking of bread?

J.T. It is pretty well the same here now as I see! Very good indeed, I thank God I can say in New York we have the Lord's day afternoon specially set

apart for readings and we are greatly encouraged by that fact.

Ques. In the Lord's day afternoon reading, would you have in mind that it is very suitable to take up something related to the service of God or our heavenly place?

J.T. Well, I used to do it myself whenever I had opportunity to lead in a reading. I would say we should have something suitable for the first day of the week, and I have been encouraged to do that this very day. This chapter came before me and I ventured to have it read because we have already had a brief word on it this morning, and I think it is enlarged on now whilst we are talking about it and I hope it will continue to be enlarged in our minds.

Rem. Sometimes the brethren are reading a book, perhaps from the Old Testament, that does not exactly bear on this.

J.T. Well, quite so, but you would not say very much. One would not like to criticise the brethren for a thing like that, for Scripture is Scripture, and every Scripture is inspired of God and has to have its place.

Rem. I was thinking of what you started with, that on the Lord's day we would expect to be capable of better things than at other times.

J.T. Very good, better things; the Lord Himself gives a suggestion of that when He says "Thou shalt see greater things than these".

H.C. Would verse 16 bear on that? It says "Jesus says to her, Mary. She, turning round, says to him in Hebrew, Rabboni, which means Teacher"?

J.T. Jesus says to her "Mary", calling her by name, but before that He called her Woman. Well that is to be noted too, that the Lord comes to the thought of calling Mary by name. It is a beautiful thought and the Lord sends a message by her immediately after that.

H.C. And Mary speaking to Him addresses the Lord as Teacher, that is what I was wondering. Is there in that a suggestion as to readiness for fresh light and help in relation to this heavenly thought of the ascended Man and the service of God?

J.T. Quite so, I think that is another point of great importance that she calls Him "Rabboni", which means Teacher. The Spirit of God goes to the pains of saying "which means Teacher", not only Rabboni, put in Hebrew, but we are told by the Spirit of God what it means. All that is mentioned in this chapter.

A.H.G. Would the taking up of readings of this character on the Lord's day test our faith?

J.T. Quite so, and test our love too, I think. It would test our love for the Lord, as well as respect for His directions. Paul praises the Corinthians because they kept the directions (1 Corinthians 11:2) and in that chapter he says, "Be my imitators, even as I also am of Christ", so that Paul is in line with Christ.

Rem. What our brother referred to touches an exercise that arises constantly amongst the brethren as to whether on the Lord's day afternoon we should expect the reading to develop out of what has engaged us in the morning or whether we should read a book regularly.

J.T. You think what we are doing today is right?

Rem. What we have done today, as you have just remarked, is the development of something that was alluded to in a word in the meeting this morning. Some brethren have felt that we should be equal to that spiritually on the Lord's day afternoon rather than reading a book, which, as our brother says, may often touch on things that are not very much related to the service of God.

J.T. Just so, and I think you could enlarge a little on what we had this morning as to the liberty,

at the particular time in the meeting, that is to be seen between the Lord and the assembly, and between the assembly and Him. I think that was a point of importance.

Ques. Do you think if we relied more upon the Spirit, we should be more equal for this on Lord's day afternoon?

J.T. Just so. The fact of the matter is I think that the Lord intends to make something of the first day of the week as bordering on ascension to heaven. It is a question of ascension as it says "I ascend", the word 'ascend' is to be used and it bears on our ascension to heaven and that is imminent now at any time.

A.C.S.P. Is it significant that the passage oft quoted in 2 Corinthians 3 about looking on the glory of the Lord and being changed, comes at the end of a chapter where the contrast is drawn between what had gone before and what we have now in christianity?

J.T. I think that is good. Would you kindly read that whole passage in the second epistle as to what is said of the Lord Himself in the chapter?

A.C.S.P. "Now the Lord is the Spirit, but where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, looking on the glory of the Lord, with unveiled face, are transformed according to the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Lord the Spirit".

J.T. Well, is not that bearing on what we have been having?

A.C.S.P. I thought so and I wondered if it linked with the first day of the week as starting something entirely new in contrast to all that had gone before?

J.T. "But we all" -- that is a very beautiful expression -- "looking on the glory of the Lord, with unveiled face, are transformed according to the same image from glory to glory". I think it is

beautiful, "transformed ... from glory to glory, even as by the Lord the Spirit", and I think it helps too, as to the place the Spirit is acquiring Himself in the recent ministry.

R.H. I would like some help as to the way headship comes in at the Supper and the service of God. It says Christ is the Head of the body, the assembly, and I was thinking of this matter you have been referring to, as to the opportune moment when the Father should be before us.

J.T. I should think what has been said is true, that we should not be too quick in dropping the idea of the Lord's brethren, "Go to my brethren". We should not be too quick in just leaving that. We should proceed with it and give good time for it, and then we have further, of course, what has been said as to Hebrews 2, "In the midst of the assembly". I meant to bring that forward too, in relation to what you are saying.

Ques. Is it helpful to think that there is glory connected with the brethren too? All is glorious. So that we move "from glory to glory"?

J.T. There must be glory, for the brethren are sons. They are the same persons. God is bringing many sons to glory. Well, they are the brethren. "In the midst of the assembly" also points to the same thing, so that the brethren must have their place and their full place too. But then sonship is another thing as to it. It is a synonymous idea with brethren. It says, "For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make perfect the leader of their salvation through sufferings". It is showing what place the brethren have. The word brethren is there too.

A.J.G. It leads on to the thought of brethren: "For both he that sanctifies and those sanctified are

all of one; for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren".

J.T. Quite so. That is what I thought.

E.J.B. Would you say a little as to the two thoughts, or stages, in verse 17, "my Father and your Father" first of all; and then, "my God and your God". I would like to understand more what was in mind; the Lord has the term 'Father' in mind first, and then the thought of God, and He connects the disciples with both, as the Father and God are connected with Him.

J.T. It is to bring out, I think, the great place that divine names have, the Father being the family term, God being a creative term. "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth". The great ultimate of everything is God, not the Father, but God. "The Father" is a family name, and a name of the most precious relationship we can speak of. So that I think we ought to keep in mind that God is God, and He is the ultimate of everything, and He comes in after the Father. He is the ultimate of all, as has been said.

E.J.B. In thinking of God you would not exclude any of the Persons of the Godhead?

J.T. No, not at all, because 'God' may cover them all, in some sense. In Matthew 28, we have "the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit". It is not 'names' but "name", the one name covering them all.

Ques. Would you distinguish for us between the Holy Spirit here and in Acts 2? Would this be a matter of inward feeling, and Acts 2 public testimony?

J.T. Well, just so. Acts 2 is public testimony. Acts 2 says that there was a blowing; if you will just read it please.

Rem. "And when the day of Pentecost was now accomplishing, they were all together in one place.

And there came suddenly a sound out of heaven as of a violent impetuous blowing, and filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared to them parted tongues, as of fire, and it sat upon each one of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues as the Spirit gave to them to speak forth".

J.T. So that this is God Himself. It is God that is in mind, and His action, "The day of Pentecost was now accomplishing, they were all together in one place". And then it says, "there appeared to them parted tongues, as of fire, and it sat upon each one of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues as the Spirit gave to them to speak forth". That is to say, God was there by the Spirit. Well now, in John 20, it is really a lesser thought, "As the Father sent me forth, I also send you. And having said this, he breathed into them, and says to them, Receive the Holy Spirit". It is presented in a less important way, although, of course, it is important. It is important, but still Acts 2 is the great general, official thing (as you might say), that has happened universally, and it remains.

A.C.C. In John 20 would it be the Spirit personally or would it be the power of Christ's life in the power of the Spirit? Would it be the Holy Spirit personally, as in Acts 2, or is it characteristically?

J.T. I would say that it would be God. Of course, it is the Spirit of God, and it is the Spirit of the Father, but I would say that Acts 2 is, so to say, the official thought of the Holy Spirit coming down, being sent down from heaven, I am using the word, 'official' to make the thing simple. It belongs to the great system in which God is operating in this dispensation.

Ques. And would John 20 convey the feelings of forgiveness, as in the Lord's own heart?

J.T. Very good. As to the Holy Spirit and the forgiveness of sins and so forth, they had power to do it, "Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted". They had power to do it.

A.J.G. Do you regard this in John 20 as something more than pattern?

J.T. I do not think it is any more than pattern. It is not the official thing so to speak.

A.J.G. That is what I thought, and what I wanted to make clear, because the Spirit was not yet because that Jesus was not yet glorified.

COVENTRY -- READING (1)

Acts 10:1 - 33

J.T. I have been thinking of the introduction of the gospel to the nations and especially as connected with the work of Peter. The Lord had said that to him He would give this service, and the thought now is to look at Acts 10 which leads to it and gives us the work among the gentiles. The preciseness with which facts are stated will strike the brethren as we look into what is said, and that, of course, is of great importance in the study of Scripture, especially as we study it together. Peter was told by the Lord that He would give unto him the keys of the kingdom of the heavens -- "Whatsoever thou mayest bind upon the earth shall be bound in the heavens". And now the gentiles are in view here; the Jews, of course, were in mind in the first introduction of the truth in the book of Acts, but the gentiles come in here, and we have to bear in mind that there are very few Jews in the truth now; very few indeed. At the same time the truth requires that we should look into the facts of the introduction of both the Jews and the gentiles. This very thought would be in mind throughout the whole of the book of the Acts, and we can verily look into the length of time that Paul was used; how much time he spent in suffering in the sense of imprisonment. So that he becomes a peculiar ideal for us to consider, as he says himself: "Think of what I say, for the Lord will give thee understanding in all things". Now in the passage before us it is striking the regard with which Cornelius is held in heaven. He was building up something in heaven. It says, "A certain man in Caesarea -- by name Cornelius, a centurion of the band called Italic, pious, and fearing God with all his house, both giving much alms to the people,

and supplicating God continually ..." That is a good word for all of us, especially in view of the need for looking into Scripture carefully. This chapter therefore might well be compared with the second chapter. That chapter points to the position of the Jews and the favour in which they were, but now it is the gentiles. The persons mentioned in Acts 2 are the pious Jews, drawn from every nation, but here the point is that it is a gentile centurion -- a military man, showing that God is not restricted in dealing with men. It is a question of men, whether they are Jews or gentiles. We have the selection of the minister that is to be used, and Peter tells us later that God had shown him that he is not to be restricted, and that men are in mind; it is not to be specially Jews, but men.

H.P.W. Do you think that God is very actively taking knowledge of everyone who wants to walk before Him and glorify Him?

J.T. That is in keeping with what we have said as to man. It is not simply Jews, but men, as it is said. "who desires that all men should be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth".

H.P.W. God notices everything, does He not?

J.T. Quite so. As it is said of Enoch: "he has the testimony that he had pleased God". Some of us have been greatly encouraged, and at the same time concerned, that the youth might come into the truth, I gather a good many of them are here today.

A.J.G. It would seem from both chapter 2 and chapter 10 that piety is a basis necessary for the building up of what is spiritual. In chapter 2 in verse 5 it says: "There were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, pious men", and then in regard of Cornelius it says that he was "pious, and fearing God with all his house", and piety seems to mark Simeon in Luke 2 before his spirituality is enlarged upon.

J.T. It is remarkable that the early verses of chapter 10 give a clear indication of the character of the man -- the centurion -- Cornelius. It says: "Cornelius, a centurion of the band called Italic, pious, and fearing God with all his house" -- notice that -- "with all his house". So that we have to consider in the light of this as to conditions in our houses, old and young in the houses: "With all his house, both giving much alms to the people, and supplicating God continually". So that the idea of piety certainly is one of the first thoughts in connection with christianity. And, of course, the household includes everybody, in fact we might say servants, but especially children and young people; the household includes all. So it says further as to Cornelius that an angel appeared to him, and that is another thing to notice. It says: he "saw plainly in a vision, about the ninth hour of the day". Notice the accuracy with which things are stated, "About the ninth hour of the day, an angel of God coming unto him, and saying to him, Cornelius. But he, having fixed his eyes upon him, and become full of fear, said, What is it, Lord? And he said to him, Thy prayers and thine alms have gone up for a memorial before God". That is, Cornelius has established a memorial in heaven, before he is brought into christianity, which is a very remarkable thing. So that evidently the thought of alms, or giving, is one of the leading things too, as to christian practice; as to christian customs and walk.

Rem. A little later on he speaks of "fasting unto this hour". You have several times referred to that during the past weeks.

J.T. Quite so, it has been in one's mind, that there is considerable prayer, thank God, and answers to prayer too, but perhaps not much fasting. There is perhaps very little fasting, and it is something for us to look into as it is now brought before us.

Rem. There was evidently something very special coming into his life, and you remarked a little while back that at a crisis or a special time fasting would give us power.

J.T. The Lord Himself says. "This kind" -- in the casting out of the demon, in fact it was a lunatic -- "does not go out but by prayer and fasting", showing that lunacy or mental conditions are the most difficult in relation to illness. We should therefore have recourse to fasting if there are such conditions in our houses.

A.E.M-o. Do you mean literal fasting?

J.T. Surely, I certainly do. It is not what may be practised at the time of Lent by certain religious people, but literal fasting in the sense of denying oneself of what one is entitled to, or of what one has a right to. It is for the sake of the truth and for the sake of power that comes in through fasting, for there is power attached to it. "This kind", the Lord says; it is a question of the kind of the disease, and the kind of power that is needed to cast out the demon. Whatever it may be that besets us, in the sense of sin or other things, the power of fasting is in mind.

H.W. Is it significant that the Lord Himself when here in manhood fasted forty days and forty nights prior to the temptation?

J.T. Quite so. It is the idea of anything that augments power for the overcoming of evil in households, and, of course, in individuals as well. In connection with the incident referred to in Matthew 17, the Lord Himself points out that that kind, it was lunacy, goes not out but by prayer and fasting. It was a certain kind of disease, and there is a means of overcoming it, and that means is fasting.

Rem. You alluded, in your prayer, to conditions that may be in a district. Would you encourage the brethren in meetings where there are difficulties,

perhaps long standing, to engage in fasting to gain power to deal with them?

J.T. Quite so, and any governmental conditions and industrial conditions that tend to promote sin can be met by fasting.

A.W.R. Paul in 2 Corinthians 11 uses the expression, "in fastings often". It is not simply an exceptional thing. Is that important?

J.T. Just so. We would do well to point that out more particularly -- "fastings often".

H.P.W. There are times in which we feel our desire is to draw near to God. Do you think that that is really what it means when it speaks about drawing near to God? We draw on Him in all His resources.

J.T. And another word as to that is "the Lord is near". So we are encouraged to count on Him being near, and to draw near corresponding to that. If God is drawing near to us, let us be sure to draw near to Him and not to show any sign of diversion in ourselves from what is good. I would say to anyone that feels overcome by any particular tendency to sin, that it is a wise thing to have recourse to fasting if he wants to overcome. It is assumed that normal christians, certainly if they are real christians, ought to have the desire to overcome evil, and then to encourage purity in themselves and in their houses too, of course. This thought of fasting is of prime importance, because God helps us through it.

A.C. Is it connected with spiritual liberty in Acts 13? It says, "as they were ministering to the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, Separate me now Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them".

J.T. There is something there to indicate, as we have been saying, that there is special advantage in fasting. There is more than that said, is there not?

A.J.G. It says, following on that: "Then, having fasted and prayed, and having laid, their hands on them, they let them go". So fasting is mentioned twice in those verses.

Ques. Have you not said that prayer brings God in and fasting keeps what is of man out? Is that why they are both connected together so often?

J.T. So that prayer and fasting are, you might say, taken together, the great remedy. The great remedy for overcoming sin, and, of course, we need to overcome sin, because it will not go of itself. We have to be energetic in dealing with anything that we know to be sinful, or tending to sinfulness. To have recourse at once to the remedy, and that remedy is prayer and fasting. I remember that came up in Australia and I was very struck with the thought. They had large prayer meetings at that time in Australia, and the thing came to me very forcefully as to fasting. We had large prayer meetings and good attendance but what was the amount of fasting?

A.E.M-o. What would you consider fasting really to be now, so that we may all take up the exercise practically?

J.T. What specially comes in now in the present phase of our exercise, is denying oneself of things that are legitimate. Many go in for what is legitimate and, in itself, perhaps is not evil, but we go in for the habit too much; we take shelter in the fact that in itself it is not evil, but at the same time the tendency would be sinful unless we judged ourselves: That is to say that the word 'judgment' would be intelligent understanding of what is in mind, because Scripture gives us intelligence. Paul says, "I speak as to intelligent persons: do ye judge what I say". That is the remedy I would say, to apply to all this that is coming under our notice.

Ques. Would you say that there is perhaps a greater danger with what is legitimate than with what is illegitimate?

J.T. That is right. Something that is legitimate and yet in itself is literally not right; yet we ignore the facts relating to it -- facts that we should have if we were intelligent. We have the means of intelligence in the Scriptures, and the Spirit of God is here to help us in intelligence.

Ques. Would true fasting bring us to a right judgment as to what is pleasing to divine Persons?

J.T. Very good, I would say that. So we have already alluded to Enoch, and he is said to be the seventh from Adam, meaning that a certain time elapsed, but it is said of him that he had this testimony, that he pleased God. He must have known in his own secret exercises and practice what pleased God, because God had afforded some knowledge there of the truth as to what pleases Him. But he is the seventh from Adam. Very few generations have come into such strength after the flood as they did before. So that Enoch was before the flood, but he was the seventh from Adam. He was almost the beginning of humanity, you might say, yet he learnt then how to please God. So that in our lives, we who are in the twentieth century and in the light of christianity, ought to know what pleases God. The thing then is to practise what we know in that sense and to make a habit of it.

Ques. Enoch's name means 'discipline'. Would that involve self-discipline?

J.T. That is right; just so.

Ques. Would the power to take up fasting issue from our presenting our bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God?

J.T. I am sure it would, "Present your bodies a living sacrifice". They could not be evil if they were living.

Rem. Daniel set his face unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and fasting. He was one who felt things and sought a divine answer as being a man greatly beloved.

J.T. So that Daniel became an example in that sense, as to what we are speaking of -- "a man greatly beloved".

W.J.T. Could you help us as to why the Lord says: "anoint thy head and wash thy face, so that thou mayest not appear fasting unto men, but to thy Father who is in secret; and thy Father who sees in secret shall render it to thee", Matthew 6:17, 18.

J.T. It is a question of reality and not merely show. That is what God looks for. He looks for reality in us in what we are practising.

J.E.B. In the Old Testament we get the expression "afflict your souls". Would that be akin to fasting?

J.T. I should think so. But we must proceed now with Peter, because the lesson we have is worked out in Peter. So the angel says to Cornelius: "Thy prayers and thine alms have gone up for a memorial before God. And now send men to Joppa and fetch Simon, who is surnamed Peter" -- notice the natural name is given as well as the spiritual name. "He lodges with a certain Simon, a tanner" It is another kind of work he is going on with. "And when the angel who was speaking to him had departed, having called two of his household and a pious soldier of those who were constantly with him, and related all things to them, he sent them to Joppa. And on the morrow, as these were journeying, and drawing near to the city, Peter went up on the house to pray". So that we can see how the servant is already in the way of dependence on God, but he has got something yet to learn, and so it proceeds:

"about the sixth hour. And he became hungry and desired to eat. But as they were making ready" -- that is, making the meal -- "an ecstasy came upon him: and he beholds the heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending, as a great sheet, bound by the four corners" -- notice there the four corners are bound -- we get peculiar detail -- "and let down to the earth; in which were all the quadrupeds and creeping things of the earth, and the fowls of the heaven" -- a large variety, but it is a question of God's creatures, God's creatures that we are not to despise. "And there was a voice to him, Rise, Peter, slay and eat. And Peter said, In no wise, Lord". Notice how quickly he sets himself against the word of God; which is a matter to be noticed, peculiarly. And then he adds, "I have never eaten anything common or unclean. And there was a voice again the second time to him" -- showing heaven's interest and incessant desire to get the truth out and practised, "What God has cleansed, do not thou make common. And this took place thrice, and the vessel was straightway taken up into heaven". So the facts are very remarkable, and that is why I proposed to read them, because I think the brethren will all get help. If we read this chapter and the following chapter carefully, and prayerfully, we shall all get help, and that is what these meetings are intended for by the Spirit of God.

A.J.G. Would you say why all this detail is gone into, as to the occupation of Cornelius and Simon, and all these other matters.

J.T. I think it is because of the extraordinary value of what God was doing. It is a matter really of having things worked out in us, but, before that, you want to know why you are doing it, to have a good reason in your own mind why you are doing it, and then, if necessary, give a good reason to others.

Eu.R. God was preparing the servant and preparing the persons to listen to him.

J.T. So that in our ministry we want to get interest and the like in what one is doing. In a reading where we are speaking of things as we are doing now, we have to pay attention and be strictly careful of what we do. The thing is to do it well; what we do, do well. Very likely you have something more in your mind?

Eu.R. Only how everything depends on God's orderings and God's workings. We have to apply that to our day just as strongly as to the day of which we are reading. It is what God is doing in the place, is it not, and then the kind of ministry that would help the conditions in that place.

J.T. Just so. As we are here today, able to help the Lord's people, we have to take account of the district, the district of Coventry and the neighbourhood. It is an industrial neighbourhood and we have to think of industrial conditions.

Ques. Do we have to think of all that is transpiring in a circumstantial way in view of the development of the work of God in any given locality?

J.T. Quite so, but there are certain districts that have certain features. We ought to take into account what these features may be, if we are working in them, to promote the service of God. That is all that is in mind. Whatever there is in this district, we have to pay attention to that. Of course, the truth is worked out generally, so that in another sense there would be the same everywhere, but there are certain things in certain districts that have to be noticed. If these things are against the truth, pray against them and speak against them and bring forward the truth from the Scriptures, that would tend to overcome them.

A.G.H. Does the word to Peter, "Rise, Peter, slay and eat", mean that we are to learn to appropriate persons?

J.T. That is the idea; fellowship includes the appropriation of the brethren. We say that we had a good meeting, or that we were at a certain house at a certain time, and we had a profitable time; but why was it profitable? It was because certain persons were there; we were appropriating each other. The truth has to be appropriated, but persons involving what the truth represents have to be appropriated. So that the animals in the Old Testament types are just types of men and women and children, and it is a question how we appropriate them and why we appropriate them.

Eu.R. You mean the clean animals that we can eat are all suggestive of persons. "What God has cleansed, do not thou make common".

J.T. So a young person may say, I would like to get to know this other young person. Well, then, the first thing is, is that young person godly or does he persecute the truth? If he does that, then you do not want to know him, except to save him if he is lost, but you do not want to know him otherwise. You do not want to make companionship of people who are sinful or tend to worldliness.

Ques. Would that be the import of the word "slay and eat"; that is, our links with one another are not on natural lines?

J.T. Just so. The slaying and the eating, of course, would not be persons; it is just a figure of what is needed to bring meat, animal meat, into use, making it useful for food.

Ques. Would this have been seen pre-eminently in Simon the tanner? There would be death, I should think, surrounding his circumstances, so that the skins might be available.

J.T. The fact that he was a tanner, you mean? There would be skins that he was making use of for pairs of shoes and the like. That would be the idea.

Eu.R. That would involve that they had to go through a certain process.

J.T. If you are a shoe dealer you have to get raw material, and that raw material has to come from animals. So that what has been said is quite right, that Simon the tanner would be likely to be affected by these skins that he would be obliged to use. The idea of intelligence thus comes into all these things, because God is pleased to give us minds that can be instructed. But we will have to proceed a little further now. We have been dealing with Cornelius, and it goes on to say (verse 19): "But as Peter continued pondering over the vision, the Spirit said to him ..." -- notice that it is not said to be the Spirit of God, it is just the Spirit Himself -- "the Spirit said to him, Behold, three men seek thee; but rise up, go down, and go with them, nothing doubting, because I have sent them". That is to say, the Spirit of God comes in personally, and He is the Sender at this time of Peter to this great service that is in mind. It is the Spirit of God by Himself.

A.J.G. It says here, "I have sent them"; the sending of the men here is also attributed to the Spirit.

J.T. Just so. Then the three men that are sent to Peter give an account of Cornelius, and they say (verse 22), "Cornelius, a centurion, a righteous man, and fearing God" -- notice that, "fearing God" -- "and borne witness to by the whole nation of the Jews, has been divinely instructed by a holy angel to send for thee to his house, and hear words from thee. Having therefore invited them in, he lodged them". Peter lodged them; that is to say, Peter had liberty to lodge people in another man's house, which is another great feature of love. As I am here now in

Mr. M.'s house I can invite somebody else in. He invited them in and lodged them, it says, meaning that he would give them a bed or give them food; he had liberty to do that, which I think is a point to be noticed. "And on the morrow, rising up he went away with them". So that Peter is obedient; he goes away with the messengers: "And certain of the brethren from Joppa went with him". We shall see later that there were six of them who went with Peter, and they were there as witnesses. "And on the morrow they came to Caesarea. But Cornelius was looking for them". Cornelius too is in the whole matter; he is thoroughly in it. He was looking for them, "having called together his kinsmen and his intimate friends". So we are to learn how we are to go on with the work of God in regard of our relatives. If we can use them, use them, but if we cannot they may damage us.

H.P.W. You spoke of the intimacy in which the Spirit desires that we should enlist His help in everything. Is that a very great thing with all of us, to be intimate in our relations with the Holy Spirit?

J.T. Quite so. You will notice that it is the Spirit by Himself. It does not say "the Spirit of God" but the Spirit Himself -- "the Spirit said to him".

Eu.R. Would you say something as to the distinction between the Spirit Himself and the Spirit of God?

J.T. The Spirit is a divine Person, the truth of which the Lord has stressed amongst us, making it clearer than it had been hitherto. The Spirit is a divine Person, as the Father is, and as the Son is, and the Spirit is mentioned as the third of the three divine Persons; that is, we are to consider the abstract idea of divine Persons. We cannot say what relations they stood in before the economy, because they are presented as equal, but in the

economy it is the Father, and the Son and the Spirit. It is the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Spirit. That is, the order is, one, two, three, and they are divine Persons, but abstractly they are clearly presented as equal.

A.E.M-o. You emphasize then that it is not the Lord speaking by the Spirit, but the Spirit Himself. We have been rather inclined to turn to the Lord for guidance, have we not, and receive it by the Spirit? Now you would turn to the Spirit for guidance, would you?

J.T. Just so. You would agree with that, I am sure.

A.E.M-o. Yes, I would.

J.T. The Spirit is presented in the Acts as in charge of the position down here, but at the same time He has been ignored in certain ways. So in Numbers 21 they sang to the well. It says, "And from thence to Beer: that is the well of which Jehovah spoke to Moses, Assemble the people, and I will give them water. Then Israel sang this song, Rise up, well! sing unto it: Well which princes digged, which the nobles of the people hollowed out at the word of the lawgiver, with their staves" Numbers 21:16 - 18. That passage is the confirmation of what the Lord has helped us on in recent times; that the Spirit of God can be spoken to. It is not only that He can speak to us -- of course, He does -- but He can be spoken to. Typically they sang to Him here.

Ques. Does the thought of accuracy enter into the message which is conveyed to Peter by the three men?

J.T. I think so, and then that he took others, because in the next chapter we find that there were six men as witnesses.

A.J.G. It says, "There went with me these six brethren also".

J.T. Showing how concerned God is as to testimony in the sense of witnesses. We constantly use the word testimony, and it implies witnesses; it is what is testified to, what the witness would say or do to establish a fact.

J.S.E. May I ask a further question as to this matter of fasting, and the way the Spirit comes into the happenings here? I was thinking of the allusion to Cornelius and the interest that heaven was taking in him, when it says: "As Peter continued pondering". He was not exactly occupied with the meal that he was originally concerned about, but he was pondering; that is, he was engaged with the matter in hand, and so the Spirit comes into the matter sympathetically and speaks to him directly and personally.

J.T. Would you not say that God was over the fact that he should be hungry, because all this was the outcome of it. God was over it and so the vision came to him, that is, what he saw coming down from heaven. There is the vessel as a great sheet, bound by the four corners. The four corners are a universal idea, and this is to be brought into his mind, meaning that he was to be ready, through this process, to listen to what was to be said about the gentiles coming into the truth.

P.L. Would his experience help him to be found in sympathy with divine hunger for the gentiles?

J.T. Will you explain to us 'divine hunger'?

P.L. I was thinking of Luke 15 -- the hunger of love in that way, and also chapter 14, "That my house may be filled".

Ques. Does the reference to all the quadrupeds and creeping things suggest that there is going to be a quota from every nation -- every class, you might say, of the gentiles?

J.T. Just so. There are certain kinds of men that are somewhat in disrepute in the minds of the so-called white people in the West. You have that in mind?

Rem. I did; I had never noticed it before, but it seems as though they must have covered every kind -- "were all the quadrupeds and creeping things".

J.T. So that God's mind would stretch out to the coloured man. We know them in New York, and that God is blessing them and He is overcoming the disadvantage of colour.

Rem. So that if we are to be true to our assembly instincts we must get away from respect of persons and come into God's view of them all.

J.T. So that we have in verse 26: "But Peter made him rise, saying, Rise up: I myself also am a man. And he went in, talking with him, and found many gathered together. And he said to them, Ye know how it is unlawful for a Jew to be joined or come to one of a strange race". We should notice the word 'race' there; that covers the whole idea of humanity. The word 'race' is not applied to angels; it is applied to men.

A.M. Was not the collection of brethren in Acts 13 a remarkably varied one in that connection? I mean there was Barnabas, and then Simeon called Niger, who would presumably be a coloured man; there was Lucius the Cyrenian, and the foster-brother of Herod, and then there was Saul.

J.T. Well, that would bear out what we have said, and you had in mind the word 'Niger' specially, did you not?

A.M. I was thinking what a mixed company they were, and how grace worked with Barnabas, for instance, and Saul, to sit down in such company as that.

J.T. So that this idea of nations comes into what we are saying (the word 'nation' is used in this section

of Scripture) but we have to make allowance for detrimental things. I would not like to say things that would cause offence to anybody, but we cannot ignore the fact that certain conditions do exist that imply reproach on certain persons. So that we have to overcame that, and Peter had to overcome it. He said he had overcome it and we have to overcome it too, so that we do not look down on people, so to speak, because of certain conditions, because I am sure God is not pleased with that at all. It is said of Enoch, that he pleased God, which means that he did please Him, and he did the things that were suitable.

Rem. Peter says: "To me God has shewn to call no man common or unclean".

J.T. Quite so. God had showed him, and that indicates that Peter had taken it in; the vision had done its work with Peter. I do not think we see that he was at all hungry afterwards -- there is no word that he wanted to eat afterwards; it is as though the hunger was in order to bring about the results that we are now dealing with. So that we have got to watch in our ministry not to have disrespect for certain persons. It may be because they are poor -- in lower conditions than we may be, but we have to think of them as men; "the mediator of God and men". It is not their colour, but men. It is humanity that is in mind.

Ques. Would there be help in relation to that in what Peter says about this matter in chapter 15? He refers to the fact that he had been given the commission from the earliest days to bring the nations into this matter, and he referred to God as "the heart-knowing God".

J.T. Just so. Two of them spoke in that extraordinary chapter. Peter was the leading speaker, and then there was James. God had honoured them in that sense and Peter was honoured, you can see

particularly, because of the way he had been educated in chapter 10.

Ques. Did the Lord have this sheet in mind in the end of Matthew's gospel when He said, "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations"?

J.T. Just so, showing that it is all the nations. It is not simply all men, but all the nations; the division into nations is involved, and that is governmental on God's part. They are called into it in Matthew 28.

A.C.S.P. Is what we are saying borne out by the verse in chapter 2. "pious men, from every nation of those under heaven", and then Peter's own expression here, "I myself also am a man".

J.T. Very good.

A.E.M-o. I suppose the systems around you in New York do make a distinction. They have separate buildings for those who are coloured; but those walking according to assembly principles would receive a coloured brother as warmly as a white brother. You have many coloured and white mixing together in the same meeting.

J.T. We have, indeed. In New York we have about half and half, and there are about five hundred altogether.

Ques. Does verse 35 of this chapter help us? "But in every nation he that fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him".

J.T. It says, beginning with verse 34, "I perceive that God is no respecter of persons, but in every nation he that fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him. The word which he sent to the sons of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ (he is Lord of all things,) ye know; the testimony which has spread" -- notice "has spread", it is the fact -- "has spread through the whole of Judaea, beginning from Galilee after the baptism which John preached -- Jesus who was of Nazareth" -- notice

that too, who was of Nazareth. He is not that now, but it is what He was -- "how God anointed him with the Holy Spirit and with power; who went through all quarters" -- notice that, all quarters -- "doing good, and healing all that were under the power of the devil, because God was with him". Then it says further. "We also are witnesses of all things which he did both in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem; whom they also slew, having hanged him on a cross. This man God raised up the third day and gave him to be openly seen, not of all the people, but of witnesses" -- notice that again -- "who were chosen before of God, us who have eaten and drunk with him after he arose from among the dead". So that the idea of humanity is greatly stressed in all that. It is a question of man.

Ques. When Peter says: "I myself also am a man", has he overcome any thought of religious superiority? He does not say, 'I am a Jew', but 'I am a man'.

J.T. I think so. But I think we ought to include other remarks before we close, and particularly that the Lord Jesus became a Man, for that is the basis of everything. It is not simply that it is that kind of creature, but the basis of everything is that the Lord Jesus Himself became a Man -- "the Man Christ Jesus".

A.J.G. So that man is now greatly elevated in the thoughts of God?

J.T. Quite so. I believe that is why christianity is brought in, because God intends to take out the very best, and He knows it, and the very best is the assembly. The assembly is the greatest of all families.

Ques. Should there be a readiness on the part of the evangelist not only to preach the gospel but to link himself on, or identify himself, with those converted? I was thinking of Philip and the eunuch.

J.T. Quite so. It says, "they went down both to the water". He took the same level as the eunuch, and the eunuch was probably a coloured man. Philip went down with him into the water; that is to say, he accepted the equality of man, although we should not go the length of President Lincoln who said that all men were created equal, for that is not true either. We have to avoid that too, for we want to be sure that we are saying the truth.

E.J.B. Is there a link with Ephesians 2 in all this, particularly where it says: "That he might form the two in himself into one new man, making peace".

J.T. Quite so. The 'one new man' is another matter altogether; Christ is the expression of that. It is not that Christ is a new Man at all, because He is not; He is not so regarded, but it is the kind of man that is formed in ourselves, that is called a new man -- it is a quality; that is what is meant. It is seen in Colossians and Ephesians.

COVENTRY -- READING (2)

Acts 10:34 - 48; Acts 11:1 - 18

J.T. Someone was speaking as we stopped this afternoon. Perhaps you would repeat what you said then.

E.C.T. I was going to remark that we should all be desirous of being in keeping with the Holy Spirit of God in relation to what He might be doing at any given time, as indicated in this book of Acts.

J.T. Yes. One might cite many instances of special ministry during the last fifty years at least, such as the sonship of Christ, and now again, the ministry as to the Holy Spirit Himself. This latter is the most important phase that is treated of in recent times, and I might say that, in some measure, it started from Numbers 21, but other scriptures might be cited, and not the least what Peter said here.

J.P.H. Is attention to the ministry and obedience to it important? I was thinking of verse 29 in chapter 10, where Peter says "Wherefore also, having been sent for, I came without saying anything against it". He did not speak against what was said to him by the Spirit. He is quickly adjusted and from the moment of the Spirit speaking to him he is steadily going forward.

J.T. Quite so, and so he says further in that same verse: "I inquire therefore for what reason ye have sent for me", and then Cornelius answered, showing that he was a veritable evidence of the work of God for the moment, leading up to the great truth that is being opened up as to the Spirit.

Ques. Would speaking against this truth as to the Spirit be lawlessness now?

J.T. Well, now there is the word as to anyone speaking against the Holy Spirit, that it shall never

be forgiven him. In Matthew 12:31, it says: "For this reason I say unto you, Every sin and injurious speaking shall be forgiven to men, but speaking injuriously of the Spirit shall not be forgiven to men. And whosoever shall have spoken a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him; but whosoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this age nor in the coming one". That is one of the most solemn things to be thought of as to our subject.

W.B.H. Does the fact that that is repeated three times, in Matthew and in Mark and in Luke, emphasise that?

J.T. Quite so. There are certain things that are omitted in some of the gospels; for instance, Matthew does not record the ascension, so that we have to watch that and see what is recorded and what is not recorded. What is recorded three times is certainly to be noted specially.

Now Peter here in verse 34, opening his mouth, said, "Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons, but in every nation he that fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him. The word which he sent to the sons of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ (he is Lord of all things, ) ye know; the testimony which has spread through the whole of Judaea, beginning from Galilee after the baptism which John preached -- Jesus who was of Nazareth: how God anointed him with the Holy Spirit and with power; who went through all quarters doing good, and healing all that were under the power of the devil, because God was with him. We also are witnesses of all things which he did both in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem; whom they also slew, having hanged him on a cross. This man God raised up the third day and gave him to be openly seen, not of all the people, but of witnesses who were chosen before of God, us who

have eaten and drunk with him after he arose from among the dead. And he commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that he it is who was determinately appointed of God to be judge of living and dead. To him all the prophets bear witness that every one that believes on him will receive through his name remission of sins". Now Peter in Acts 2 speaks of remission of sins and then the gift of the Holy Spirit is added. It would seem as if the Spirit of God intends that certain features of the truth may be stressed at one time and certain others at another time.

C.H.G. Does verse 43 show that the same gospel is now available for all men, including the gentiles? "The prophets bear witness that every one that believes on him will receive through his name remission of sins".

J.T. Quite so. So that what we were referring to this afternoon may well be stressed again; that is, the idea of so-called coloured persons especially in the American continent. The coloured race is probably ten millions, showing that God is not passing over the race that other sections of humanity despise. God is dealing with them in the gospel and many of them are not only converted, but are in fellowship, actually in fellowship in the truth, and having gift, too, to preach the gospel and minister the word.

Rem. It has often been noticed that in those parts of America where the colour bar is so strictly enforced the testimony has not taken root.

J.T. That is quite true. In the southern part of the United States, for instance, the truth has never taken very much hold, whereas in the north and west it has.

P.L. So that the experience as to the sheet is to make us humbly thankful that God selects our company for us and we embrace all He gives.

J.T. Yes, so that while the race is in mind, as we see here, that is to say men, as such, are in mind, yet the fact remains that there are differences that it is wise to observe. There is not the same effect from the gospel in sections of the world such as Japan and China, besides the coloured races of the south. There are these differences, and if we are seeking to minister the truth we had better just observe that, and God would help us to do so; the Spirit of God is here, He is not only in heaven, He is here, and sent down here to help us in all these matters, so that we had better consult the Spirit. Of course we consult God as such, and the Lord Jesus, but consult the Spirit as to what especially would be supported in the truth.

Ques. Does the apostle's word to Titus bear that out: "One of themselves, a prophet of their own, has said, Cretans are always liars" and so on?

J.T. Quite so -- "always liars". Well, then you had better avoid that class because God has written down a word for us and we should be guided by it. Paul is the author of that passage, and we are dealing now with the gentiles, and how the truth has come to them. Paul, of course, is, you might say, more available and amenable to the Spirit of truth, not indeed that I would say a word against any of the others, but at the same time Paul is a speciality. The Lord speaks of him as special to Himself.

J.S.E. Why did you draw a distinction between the allusion to forgiveness of sins in the early part of the book and what he said here? You made a reference to the fact that the gift of the Holy Spirit is not added here.

J.T. Well, it is not said here, and it is a question of the wisdom or the differentiation that you get with the Spirit's ministry. We do well to follow His guidance in that sense, but truth is truth. We shall see in chapter 11 that Peter differentiates certain

things from chapter 10, which we might easily look at.

Eu.R. Immediately following "every one that believes on him will receive through his name remissions of sins", we have "While Peter was yet speaking these words the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were hearing the word".

J.T. Quite so. Now I think we should go on to the main subject from the chapter where we began to read.

Ques. In verse 35 of chapter 10 is Peter looking out for any feature of the work of God, wherever it appeared?

J.T. I am sure he is. At the same time the Spirit of God knows; He is God, and He knows what is to happen, as well as what has happened. We can thus count on Him and be guided by what He says or does not say, and then if we need to compare and get help from the comparison, we might well look into each detail of the matter, and make a comparison. So that we have in this verse, "But in every nation he that fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him", showing that the fear of God and the working of righteousness is to be observed, and then again: "The word which he sent to the sons of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ (he is Lord of all things, ) ye know". Notice the word 'word' there. Sometimes you may have 'words', which would mean detail of language, but sometimes you have 'word', which is a general idea, as we say 'preach the word' -- the word is one whole idea.

Ques. You drew attention this afternoon to the word 'witnesses' in verses 39 and 41. Had you something further to say as to that?

J.T. "We also are witnesses of all things which he did both in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem; whom they also slew, having hanged him on

a cross. This man God raised up the third day and gave him to be openly seen, not of all the people, but of witnesses who were chosen before of God, us" and so forth. Well, now God there has to be regarded in the full light of the word 'God'; that is God, including sometimes the three Persons of the Godhead. Sometimes it is that but not at all times; so that we have to be careful in making comparisons.

N.K.M. Is the "us" in verse 41, which you stressed, apostolic?

J.T. I would think that is what Peter means, although the apostle Paul was already selected, you know.

Ques. Is it to be noted that those who accompanied Peter were designated the faithful of the circumcision? Do we see by that that they were morally fitted to accompany him on this great mission?

J.T. Just so; there were six mentioned afterwards. I would think what you say is right. So that the Spirit of God is careful to give credit where credit is due, and to bring to light the persons in whom God is working. When we say God -- you might say it is God in the full sense. In chapter 8 of 1 Corinthians it is said "to us there is one God, the Father, of whom all things ... and one Lord, Jesus Christ". The Holy Spirit is not mentioned in that category. We can add that very evidently, but we need not because the Spirit of God does not add it Himself.

A.J.G. Have you anything in your mind as to why the Holy Spirit is not mentioned in that chapter?

J.T. I have not. I have often thought of it, but it is not there. It is just one Father and one Lord.

Ques. Would it be a question of what is needed at that moment?

J.T. That is in general what I would say. You might add something, too, because we are here for that purpose.

Rem. One is struck with the skill which the Spirit gives to the ministers to meet the need of those to whom they minister.

J.T. Yes, and you might say about that what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 4, "God has set us the apostles for the last". Why should that be? It is as if they were capable of more reproach and more suffering than any of us.

Ques. Would that passage in 1 Corinthians 8 not also guide us as to prayer so that we should not labour to address more divine Persons than we are free with at the moment, or to address all divine persons in prayer, but that we should be selective?

J.T. Quite so. If we give thanks for our food at the table we do not lengthen our prayers, but we would not deny anything; there are occasions for shortening prayers and for lengthening them. We could easily pick out from Scripture lengthened prayers or lengthened terms of reverence and thanksgiving to God. We could easily select many passages from the Psalms and the Old Testament generally as well as in the New.

C.H.G. Would the expression "they of the circumcision" at Jerusalem in verse 2 of chapter 11 imply those of a certain narrow view of things who were insisting on circumcision and all the Jewish ceremonials?

J.T. They would not be reliable men, I would say. Verse 1: "the apostles and the brethren who were in Judaea heard that the nations also had received the word of God"; notice that it is the "word of God", not the 'words of God', but the "word of God". We say 'preach the word'; that is another expression. The word is a general term conveying the full thought of the mind of God on some point.

Then it goes on to say: "And when Peter went up to Jerusalem, they of the circumcision contended with him". So we may be sure that they are not with God when they are contending against the truth. They contended with him, saying, "Thou wentest in to men uncircumcised and hast eaten with them". That is a complaint, but it is not according to Scripture. It is just a false contention against the truth.

Ques. In verse 3 of chapter 11 Peter is accused of having eaten with the nations, but when he speaks to Cornelius in verse 41 of chapter 10, he says: "Us who have eaten and drunk with him after he arose from among the dead". Does that suggest the intimacy with divine Persons which gives the liberty and power to rise above legalism?

J.T. You would make a point of intimacy; is that what you mean? that Peter had intimacy with the Lord?

Rem. Yes, eating and drinking with Him after He rose from the dead suggests the intimacy of communion with the Lord Jesus in that condition, and I was thinking how it would in that sense reflect on our intimacy with the Holy Spirit now, so as to rise above what is legal.

J.T. Quite so, I think what you say is perfectly right. The question of intimacy with the Holy Spirit is a matter to be understood and to be practised too, because the Lord Himself has helped us as to that truth.

Ques. Does the thought of the Holy Spirit falling upon those that were hearing the word bring in the affections of the Spirit, and how attractive those that were hearing the word would be to Him?

J.T. Quite so. We have the expression "the love of the Spirit" in Romans, so that the idea of the affections of the Spirit is quite in order.

Ques. Is it not something like the Father falling on the neck of the returning son?

J.T. Very good.

A.J.G. Do you think Peter's action according to chapter 11 in setting forth the matter to them in order, is an example of how to seek to help those who have difficulties?

J.T. I would think so. Perhaps you would say a little more.

A.J.G. I was only thinking that Peter would be sympathetic with those who had difficulties because he had had difficulties himself, and God had graciously removed them by the vision and the voice from heaven, and so on.

J.T. It is a very good sign if a brother who has had difficulties and who has been saying things that are not right, would say so and confess he has been wrong. He would be helped. It often happens, however, that people ignore the errors they have been making.

N.K.M. The effect of Peter's word to them was that "when they heard these things they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then indeed God has to the nations also granted repentance to life".

J.T. Yes, quite so. So that the matter was settled, that is what I would say. It is a great thing to settle a matter, and not to spread it out too much.

Ques. Is it a great thing that the matter was settled by the Spirit's own action?

J.T. Just so. But it might be settled even by the ministry of a brother, too. The ministry of a brother might be the actual word of the Holy Spirit; he might speak by the Spirit of God, and of course every one of us should aim at that, if we are attempting to minister.

J.E.B. Peter in his epistle uses the expression the "oracles of God".

J.T. Quite so, he says. "if any one speak -- as oracles of God" (1 Peter 4:11), so that is an injunction to everyone of us who is ministering.

Ques. Has God something special in mind in bringing forward the Holy Spirit as He has been doing in the last two or three years?

J.T. He certainly has, and I think it is to help all of us in ministry to be clear about the Scriptures, and then to make room for the Spirit Himself, so that the word may be with power, as we often say. It cannot be denied if it is with power. Another thing we should notice is that the Holy Spirit refers to Himself in quoting the Old Testament, "as says the Holy Spirit", Hebrews 3:7. The whole book of the Scriptures is thus before us in this sense, and the Holy Spirit is the Author of all, but He quotes Himself oftentimes, and He brings forward persons whom He has raised up and is using to present the truth to us. We need to be careful therefore thus to be with the Spirit in what He is doing, because He is the One to guide us in regard of quotations from Scripture, because He has written it. Then too, if we are real christians, He is indwelling us, and there are these meetings which we are having, and in which God is helping us; the Spirit of God Himself is helping us. The truth is being more and more clarified, and of course the young people ought to read or listen to the ministry and get on their knees and see whether they are getting the good of what has been said by the ministers and the Holy Spirit Himself. If a person has not got the Spirit he never understands anything properly, and there are many who have not got the Spirit, and so the question would be, therefore, if I am not sure that I have the Spirit, to be sure to ask for Him.

Ques. Do not these words of Peter become divine communications?

J.T. They do indeed.

A.J.G. Do you think that the more we come to recognise and value the presence of the Comforter, the Spirit of truth, the more we shall be able to get into all the truth and reach completion, and also to meet every form of opposition that may arise?

J.T. Quite so, and especially if a brother has been neglectful or failed in the ministry to receive it when he has had opportunity, well, then he ought to be more and more particular. He should take it to heart and make it clear to the brethren that he has judged himself, because we are to judge ourselves. We are enjoined to do so, in the epistle to the Corinthians.

Ques. Would continued resistance in this way involve an assembly meeting?

J.T. I should certainly say so, but be sure if we have an assembly meeting to get the facts together to show that there is real need for judgment.

Eu.R. You mean get the facts together beforehand?

J.T. Just so, and let them be declared in the presence of witnesses, because the care meeting is a meeting for witnesses. Witnesses are present capable of telling things and giving information as to them.

Ques. Would not Peter setting forth the matter in order be to carry the brethren with him and to convince them as to the truth?

J.T. Quite so, and tell their wives at home. The wives too should ask them so that they get the truth. It says in 1 Corinthians 14:35, "Let them ask their own husbands at home". That is an important thing for the sisters; to ask their husbands at home.

J.S.E. Is there something very attractive in the fact that, while Peter was speaking, the Holy Spirit fell on those who heard the word? In his speaking

he was really acknowledging his own adjustment in relation to the truth.

J.T. Just so. He was a corrected man -- a self-judged man, as you might say. We know well enough that he was adjusted later when Paul had to take issue with him. Paul says, "I said to Peter before all". Paul took issue with Peter himself.

R.S.W. Is the intimacy with the Spirit which we are being brought into necessary in view of eternal conditions upon which we are about to enter?

J.T. Very good. That is an immense word, which we can hardly touch on now, because there is not time, but it is one of the most important things anyone could say. As being translated to heaven, what conditions we are coming into! The Spirit, I believe thoroughly, is going with us when we go. There will, of course, be other ministry by the Spirit, but it will be on lower ground, indeed more Israelitish ground. But then the conditions as to Israel -- the facts as to Israel -- will have to terminate too, because there is no word of Israel being brought into eternal conditions. They will go into it as men, I would say. If they have been brought into the assembly, of course, they have come into it as men.

Rem. So that the idea of nations is not carried beyond the millennium.

J.T. Not that I know of. But still it shows how thoughtful God is and how He is faithful to His promises to the fathers. What regard He has for the fathers -- the believers in the truth, especially Moses. It is wonderful that Moses should be brought forward as he is as speaking to the Lord on the mount of transfiguration. There were Moses and Elias. There are things there that are not very clear to us at times, but a greater study would make them clearer, so that we become acquainted with them.

T.H. Would the two words in verse 12 of chapter 11, "nothing doubting", be particularly important? There may perhaps be the element amongst us of doubting. It says of the disciples at the close of Matthew, "some doubted".

J.T. Just so; especially if they are gifted men and God is using them. It is most important that they should be sure and not have any doubts about things. Why should we have doubts? If you have doubts, well, get to God. He will make it clear. The word is, "Think of what I say, for the Lord will give thee understanding in all things", 2 Timothy 2:7.

F.W.O. Does the recognition of the Spirit's own voice settle every doubt? He says, "The Spirit said to me".

J.T. Quite so. You can have no greater authority than the Spirit of God. He is God Himself.

J.E.B. Would you say with regard to some of the special men in the Old Testament, such as Moses, that they had the Spirit in some special way. I was thinking of what we get in Isaiah. "But he remembered the days of old, Moses and his people: Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherds of his flock? Where is he that put his Holy Spirit within him ..." Isaiah 63:11.

J.T. They would not be what we call indwelt by the Spirit. In a peculiar way the Spirit is here permanently now indwelling the assembly -- no one person can contain the Spirit, it is only the assembly fully that can contain the Spirit.

A.J.G. So each believer's body is characteristically temple of the Holy Spirit.

J.T. That is so, but still we cannot ignore the fact that it is only one out of many. The assembly is a united idea; it is a full united thought, and the thought of union too is involved in it. That is another point that perhaps we have not all touched on much lately -- union with Christ, but it implies

that every one who is indwelt by the Spirit is in union.

A.J.G. John in his second epistle speaks of the truth which "abides in us and shall be with us to eternity". Do you think that is an allusion to the Spirit as with us to eternity?

J.T. I would think so. It is the full thought which is characteristic of John. He gives full thoughts, but many of them are abstract thoughts; you have to bring in the idea of abstraction to get them. John is the most abstract man of all.

Ques. Were you going to say anything more about union?

J.T. No, I do not think I could. We have to study Mr. Stoney's writings to get the full truth of union, because he knew more about it than any of those that have ministered, as far as I understand.

Eu.R. Had you in mind "he that is joined to the Lord is one Spirit"?

J.T. I do not think that is full union. Union is what we have in Genesis 2, if you will kindly read it.

A.J.G. In Genesis 2, first of all the man says: "This time it is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh, this shall be called Woman, because this was taken out of a man". Then the Spirit adds, "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and cleave to his wife; and they shall become one flesh". Is that the thought of union?

J.T. That is right, and as brought into the New Testament that is worked out as union.

A.J.G. And that is quoted in Ephesians 5, and Paul says, "I speak as to Christ, and as to the assembly".

J.T. Quite so. He speaks of other things, but he wants that specially stressed, because that is what is in his mind. "I speak as to Christ and as to the assembly". I would say therefore that Paul knows

more about the assembly than any, because he is minister of it.

A.G.H. Would you please say something about this vessel? Is this "certain vessel descending" the assembly?

J.T. I think it is. We are impressed with the immensity of it, because it is a very immense idea and it refers to the assembly. It came down three times and went up to stay -- that is the eternal thought.

A.G.H. In chapter 10 it speaks of it being taken up into heaven, and in chapter 11 it is drawn up.

J.T. There is not much difference. 'Drawn up' would mean a hand above -- some hand above. Similarly we have earlier in this book the idea of hard breathing, connected with the sound out of heaven. That would be an allusion to lungs. We would be very reverential in referring to the idea of lungs in God, but still the idea is there as to breathing -- hard breathing: (See footnote, Acts 2:2).

Ques. Is there any link in Acts 10:45, with Genesis 24, where the servant is astonished at Rebecca? I believe it is the same word used.

J.T. The Spirit is alluded to in Genesis 24; Abraham's servant typifies the Spirit. So that the astonishment is all the more wonderful in that chapter; it suggests the astonishment the Spirit has. It is better to leave it without saying too much, lest we might get into error about it, but it is remarkable that the Spirit is there and spoken of in that sense. The whole chapter conveys precious thoughts, that we need to feed on rather than enlarge on too much in ministry.

Rem. Referring to the thought of the vessel, once more, we sometimes speak of it as being a sheet, but it is as a sheet. I wondered whether the thought of a vessel in this connection would give us an impression of the entity of the church, and that

it is quite indivisible; you have it all or nothing, so to speak, I wondered whether that would be conveyed to Peter.

J.T. In addition to that, I would say that I do not think we should speak of any part of the assembly as a remnant. I would avoid, as far as I am concerned, speaking of the assembly in any sense as a remnant. The remnant is spoken of in regard to the Jews, but I do not think it should be spoken of in regard to the assembly. I do not think that even in the third chapter of Revelation -- in the reference to Philadelphia -- the assembly should be spoken of as a remnant. Some think of it in that sense, because it is in Revelation, but it is not, it is the full thought of the assembly in that passage.

Rem. What you are saying is very interesting, because sometimes we are inclined to take terms which are used to designate Israel and apply them to the church with equal facility, whereas the Lord has the whole thing in mind when He speaks of the assembly.

J.T. Quite so, I think the Lord, so to speak, would be loath to use it in any other sense, because the assembly is so great, and He loves it.

J.G.S. Might it not tend to be a slight on the presence of the Spirit indwelling the assembly if we talk of a remnant?

J.T. I think you are right. That is just what I would say. Now let us finish verse 18: "And when they heard these things they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then indeed God has to the nations also granted repentance to life", I think that is a wonderful verse after such readings as we have had today. The matter is settled.

P.L. And are those who are now established in it invigorated to go forward to the next step?

J.T. Just so; to go forward. Mr. Mace once told me that he had learnt something from someone that

seemed to be the truth. It was: 'Go on, go on, go on', just like that, and I think he was right, too. The words 'Go on' struck me, and it strikes me now. We can well go on from what we have been saying as to the introduction of the gentiles, for we belong to the gentiles. There is hardly a Jew in fellowship now.

A.J.G. It is a scriptural expression because we get "Let us go on to what belongs to full growth".

J.T. Very good.

W.B.H. What do the words "repentance to life" suggest?

J.T. It is a real repentance. Not simply that you have a sense that God has done something for you, but it is a real repentance. It is to life, meaning that eternal life would be implied in it; it would reach that point. We all know what came out in Mr. Raven's ministry in the last century as to eternal life.

A.J.G. And does that mean that repentance is in view of filling a position here in testimony in the power of eternal life?

J.T. Quite so.

A.C.S.P. Is it a great matter not only to arrive at the fact that what the ministry has said is right, but to arrive at what God is doing?

J.T. Very good; what God is doing.

A.C.S.P. I was thinking of the expression, "Then indeed God has to the nations also granted repentance to life". They do not say, Peter, you are justified in what you did, but they recognise what God has done.

J.T. Just so. I think instead of saying what God is doing, the time has come when we say God is at rest. We have Mr. Darby's beautiful hymn, 'Rest of the saints above, Jerusalem of God' (Hymn 74), but then God is at rest as well. That verse conveys the idea

of rest, and we are coming into rest -- the rest of God.

P.L. "He will rest in His love".

A.M. Do the variety of creatures themselves that are found in the sheet set forth the principle of life in its variety?

J.T. Well, I would say so. The Lord says of His sheep, "I give them life eternal; and they shall never perish" -- so that the thought is there -- "and no one shall seize them out of my hand". All the ideas are there in the sheet.

Ques. You have several times referred to the fact that there are no -- or very few -- Jews in fellowship. Did you have in mind the passage in Romans 11 about the goodness and severity of God? It says, "Behold then the goodness and severity of God; upon them who have fallen, severity; upon thee goodness of God, if thou shalt abide in goodness, since otherwise thou also wilt be cut away".

J.T. Quite so. That is a fitting close to what we have had.

CROYDON -- READING (1)

2 Corinthians 3:1 - 18; 1 Corinthians 11:25; Jeremiah 31:31 - 34

J.T. The subject I have in mind is the new covenant, and the idea before us at this time is to call attention to the full thought of the Scriptures, every Scripture, including Old and New Testaments, and their value. It was, therefore, thought that the idea of the new covenant would aid us in this respect, so that we may see how well off we are as in this dispensation that we are in, as compared with what was before. We have to see, at the same time, that what was before was essential to what is now, but it is all one thought. "Every scripture", it says, "is divinely inspired, and profitable". Nothing, therefore, is to be despised, and certainly not neglected. There should be a constant thought of it, and we should read the Scriptures in the order in which they are written. That is, to take them beginning with Moses and the Psalms, and then the prophets, and so forth, so as to get the order in which they should be read. There is order in which they are written, and the New Testament too, of course, each book in its own place beginning with the Gospels, and then the Acts, and then the Epistles. It is thought now that the third chapter of 2 Corinthians will help us in regard of the epistles and enable us to link on with the Old Testament where the covenant, or the new covenant, is drawn from, because it is a question of comparison between the Old and the New. It was once stated by Mr. Raven, and it may be well to record it here, that the new covenant is the forgiveness of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit. It might be as well to keep that in mind in all that we may have to say.

Rem. Having the knowledge of God in mind? It says "They shall all know me".

J.T. Quite so, "From the least of them unto the greatest of them". Then, as it says elsewhere: "They shall be all taught of God". That is another thing that runs through Scripture, being taught of God. It is not simply reading the Scriptures literally, but being taught of God as to their meaning. Hence, we have prophets, and evangelists, and shepherds and teachers, and so forth, and we would now specially recall the idea of teachers. There are, of course, at the present time, a good many capable men, thank God, and these meetings -- and three-day meetings especially -- are being greatly increased, not only here but in America and in Australasia. It is not simply week-end meetings, but three-day meetings, in which there is ample room to work out a principle or a subject.

H.H. Is it to be noted that Jeremiah lived at the time when Jerusalem was captured by the enemy? I mean the whole thing was, in a way, wrecked; so that over against that the thought of the new covenant would be full of meaning.

J.T. Yes, so that God has begun anew. It says in Revelation 21, "Behold, I make all things new". He has begun anew now, in the New Testament, and, of course, it is connected with the incoming of the Son, the Son of God become Man. That is the beginning and basis of everything.

H.G.H. So do you consider the old covenant as a forerunner of the new?

J.T. Well, as to its general character or manner, but, of course, the contents of the new are very different from those of the old. We must however bring in the old so as to get the good of all the types and all that is mentioned before. Paul says in Galatians that the covenant was "ordained through angels in the hand of a mediator", and we thank God for the Mediator. The Mediator is Christ, but then Moses was also a mediator, and there is some

idea of mediatorship in those of us who are, in any way, capable or qualified to minister the truth, so that there is a go-between amongst us, involving confidence and consideration all round. There would be no idea of partisanship, for it is a question of what God has provided, and all the details are to be observed.

W.J. Are the three Persons required for the development of the new covenant?

J.T. 'Three' is a numeral which is much used in Scripture, and when we think of the divine Persons, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, one name covers them all, according to the end of Matthew.

H.W.A. In John 6 the Lord brings in what you have already quoted, in referring to the Father taking the initiative in the sense of teaching in the economy. He says, "They shall be all taught of God". He refers to this very thought.

J.T. Just so, "They shall be all taught of God". And remember that the sisters are included in that; but the question is whether the sisters take it on, and whether the responsibility attaching to them is taken on by them, because they ought to follow things with the brethren. But you had something more to say?

H.W.A. I was thinking what an important thing it is to get into our souls that, in this great economy, the Father teaches as well as the Son and as well as the Holy Spirit. The word is in that same chapter, "every one that has heard from the Father himself, and has learned of him", as if to indicate that the Father takes the initiative in the sense of teaching and drawing to Christ.

J.T. Quite so.

P.L. In regard to this ministerial service in mediatorship, is it seen in Moses? It says "The skin of his face shone", and then it says "Moses called to them; and they turned to him -- Aaron and all

the principal men of the assembly; and Moses talked with them. And afterwards, all the children of Israel came near", Exodus 34:30 - 32.

J.T. Very good. They all came near, but then there was the idea of Moses and the place he had as the mediator. No one had a place such as his. He is therefore a type of Christ in that sense. It says "The mediator of God and men one, the man Christ Jesus". So that the full thought is carried down to Christ Himself in manhood. It will not do simply to think of God as in the Old Testament, but we must think of Christ in manhood. He, of course, was in the Godhead before He became Man, but in manhood all things are carried down and made intelligible in Him. The Spirit too is here, sent down by Him, as if He accepted the obligation of looking after things and opening up things and teaching.

E.C.M. Is that supported in Exodus 24, where it says, "He took the book of the covenant, and read it in the ears of the people; and they said, All that Jehovah has said will we do"? Would the book of the covenant, and reading it, be connected with the thought of teaching the people?

J.T. Just so. And so we rightly stress the fact that in Luke 24 it says of the Lord, "Having begun from Moses and from all the prophets, he interpreted to them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself". So that there you have the full thought, "in all the scriptures the things concerning himself".

P.H.H. Is it remarkable that this finds a place in the things we have come to in Hebrews 12? It says "Ye have come ... to Jesus, mediator of a new covenant".

J.T. Yes, there are eight of them, and we might as well read them.

P.H.H. Hebrews 12:22: "But ye have come to mount Zion; and to the city of the living God,

heavenly Jerusalem; and to myriads of angels, the universal gathering; and to the assembly of the firstborn who are registered in heaven; and to God, judge of all; and to the spirits of just men made perfect; and to Jesus, mediator of a new covenant; and to the blood of sprinkling, speaking better than Abel".

J.T. There are eight; it is beyond seven. It is the full idea, and indicates what we have come to. It is what we have come to; not what they came to in Old Testament times, but what we have come to.

A.J.G. Is it significant that in that scripture the word for new covenant is 'fresh', stressing the freshness in the Spirit which you were mentioning in your prayer.

J.T. Just so, I felt I needed it, because we came through crowded streets in the heat. Of course, we thank God for it, I do, because the heat is surely good for us. What God gives us is good for us.

P.H.H. "And to the blood of sprinkling". Would that add to the thought, "speaking better than Abel"? Does that link on with the spirit of the covenant, which you have in mind?

J.T. Quite so. It is better things too. The word 'better' is a comparative idea, and it shows what we have come into. Whether we take it on and enjoy it is another matter, and that is what these meetings are for, to stir us up and stimulate us into the enjoyment of what is available to us.

A.J.G. Have you in mind that new covenant ministry is intended to set us free in the assembly?

J.T. That is just what I think it is intended to do; and Hebrews, I suppose, would be the suggestion of it. We have the volume and the variety of the things we have come to, and the quotations from the Old Testament are generally from the Psalms, which shows that experience is the great point in mind.

H.H. It says, "the assembly of the firstborn". That would come into line with your thought?

J.T. Quite so.

H.G.H. So in verse 6 of the chapter read it says, "made us competent, as ministers". Is the assembly in mind there, or is it only apostolic, do you think?

J.T. It is apostolic. Will you please read it again.

H.G.H. 2 Corinthians 3:5, "Not that we are competent of ourselves to think anything as of ourselves, but our competency is of God; who has also made us competent, as ministers of the new covenant".

J.T. Well, as I said, I think that is apostolic.

P.H.H. Would you say a word as to the new covenant in this setting? Is it a description of ministry, or is it a setting out of the new covenant? I am referring to the note to that verse which has just been read. Mr. Darby says, Perhaps it may be rendered 'competent as new covenant ministers', as if that were the description of the ministry and the ministers. Would that be right?

J.T. I think so, covering the whole idea, so that, we might say, if the apostles were together at any given time, as in Acts 15, they would be in the full sense of that, and they would contend for it too. Acts 15 is the scripture that covers all that.

P.H.H. The council about the circumcision?

J.T. Yes.

P.H.H. There was a question about it, the enemy was attacking, and that chapter is to reach the whole thought of the truth, and the apostles were all there. Peter was the first one to speak and then James afterwards.

A.J.G. So that new covenant ministry, as brought into christianity, is really part of the ministry of the gospel, is it not?

J.T. Quite so. So we certainly do well to adhere to the idea of the gospel, however few the attendance

may be, and to have it at least on the first day of the week, because God is blessing it. However much weakness there may be, God is blessing the gospel, and I think He is going to continue it. There is remarkable interest universally, as far as I can see, now, and I think God is showing that He is approving it, and the Lord is thinking of it because He is about to come. The reference to the appearing of Christ is to be specially noted, and we have a reference to those who love the appearing of Christ.

Ques. Is it to be noticed that in the passage that has been quoted in Hebrews 12, it does not say that christians have come to the new covenant, but they have come to Jesus, the Mediator of a fresh covenant? I wondered if we could get some help as to the fact that the new covenant is not formally made with the church.

J.T. Quite right. What help can we get from that? The reference is to the old covenant, of course, but the truth is that Christianity is in mind and nothing less than that.

Eu.R. Would the expression "we all" in the last verse involve that? Is that universal?

J.T. The "we" is emphatic. Quite so, "we all, looking on the glory of the Lord, with unveiled face, are transformed according to the same image from glory to glory". It is a magnificent finish to the chapter, because it is a question of glory -- "glory to glory".

Eu.R. It is no longer ministerial, but the apostle would draw all the saints into this liberty?

J.T. I think so.

Ques. Would you say a word as to the force of the expression; "the glory of the Lord"?

J.T. Well, we could easily say that the new covenant implies that, but glory is a question of what there is, what a thing is. Here it is a question

of the authority of the Lord, and at the end of the verse we have "the Lord the Spirit", showing that the Spirit of God is involved in the whole passage as to glory. "From glory to glory" refers to the Holy Spirit really. The chapter, we might say, deals with the great subject of the gospel, the Spirit being the power in which it is presented, and not only preached but ministered. The ministry is through the Spirit.

H.H. In 2 Corinthians 4:6 it reads, "It is the God who spoke that out of darkness light should shine who has shone in our hearts for the shining forth of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ".

J.T. That is just what I was pointing out, that the idea of glory is immense, and then the idea of three divine Persons is more than immense; it is unspeakable.

H.H. I am sure you are right. We do well to pay much attention to it.

P.H.H. Do you take "the glory of the Lord" in the first part of verse 18, "we all, looking on the glory of the Lord", to refer to the Lord Jesus?

J.T. I think so. And then the glory of God in the next chapter, of course, is God Himself.

Ques. Has not the Person of the Lord Jesus a distinctive place as the Mediator?

J.T. He has, certainly. There is only one divine Person said to be made Lord, and that is the Son. The Father is not made Lord, nor the Spirit; it is the Son that is made Lord.

Ques. With regard to your remark as to christianity being in mind, is that why the apostle uses the letter as a negative matter to bring into relief the Spirit in a positive way? He says "The letter kills, but the Spirit quickens".

J.T. Just so. It is to set out the greatness of the Spirit. The word spirit, however, does not

always refer to the Holy Spirit, it has to be looked into, as to the setting in which it is presented.

P.H.H. You are referring to verse 6 where it says, "not of letter, but of spirit"? That has a small 's'. Then it goes on to say, "For the letter kills, but the Spirit quickens". That is a capital 'S'. That would be the Holy Spirit.

J.T. Yes, quite.

Ques. Does that not raise the question of the character of any ministry? Paul in speaking of his ministry says, "God ... has also made us competent, as ministers of the new covenant; not of letter, but of spirit".

J.T. I suppose Paul put the whole matter into both his ministry and the way he carried it on.

P.L. Would "death works in us, but life in you" suggest the quickening power of new covenant ministry?

J.T. I think it would. Just so.

S.R. Does the ministry of the Spirit enable us to behold the glory?

J.T. I think that is right.

Ques. Could we have a word as to why the new covenant has such prominence at the Supper? "This cup is the new covenant in my blood".

J.T. That is the first epistle. Well, I think it is the great idea of the ministry of God. It is the ministry of the Spirit, of course, but the Lord's supper is the beginning of everything in the sense of ministry. Everything begins with the Lord's supper. Then we are led on to the thought of the Minister of the sanctuary, and, as it says, "of the true tabernacle, which the Lord has pitched and not man". That is to say, which God has pitched and not man, but the Lord Jesus is the Minister of it. He is the Minister of the sanctuary. All that begins with the Lord's supper.

R.S.W. Would the shedding of His blood be an outstanding part of the glory of the Lord?

J.T. I should say that. Only one of the divine Persons died, and we cannot but be touched as we think of that. One of the divine Persons died. The others give support. Of course, the Father is first, and then the Son, and then the Holy Spirit, but then, as I said before, only the Lord Jesus Christ is said to be made Lord. He is made Lord and Christ.

F.C.H. Is not the Lord Jesus the only One of the Godhead who is said to be made anything? And that must be as Man.

J.T. It must be as Man. "The man Christ Jesus" is therefore so distinctively prominent, and should be prominent with us today, because it is peculiarly in this chapter.

H.H. A divine Person giving His life gives us such a sense in our souls of what love means, does it not?

J.T. Just so. Right up to the point that "God is love". You could not get anything better than that, "God is love", and then again, "Love is of God".

H.H. "Hereby we have known love, because he has laid down his life for us; and we ought for the brethren to lay down our lives". That is a good word for all of us here this morning, is it not?

J.T. Quite so.

Ques. As to the thought here of looking on the glory of the Lord, would that be characteristic or is it specific? Does it enter specifically into our assembling together?

J.T. It is a very wide thought. Think of the wideness of it; all the divine Persons are in it, yet the Lord having become Man, is the great vessel of the display of all these things. But then we cannot ignore the other Persons, because God is love, as we have said, and the love of the Spirit is mentioned

too. All the divine Persons, in a certain sense, therefore, are love, for God is love. I do not know that we should say, or that we could find in the Scriptures, that Christ is love, but God is love, and the word God there would imply the Father, the Son and the Spirit, as I understand.

W.J. Are "fleshy tables of the heart" capable of taking in divine love?

J.T. We would have to use that carefully, because 'fleshy' is apt to divert our minds, but it is just a figure, used in contrast to stone, to imply that they are impressionable. "Fleshy tables of the heart" mean that the heart is the centre of love.

E.C.M. Would you say a word on being "transformed according to the same image from glory to glory"? Do you connect that with the thought of change which you have spoken of?

J.T. Yes, "from glory to glory". Divine Persons are capable of change, and we have to be very careful to speak reverentially of it. They are capable of change, but even we are too. John the apostle says "I became in the Spirit on the Lord's day". He was capable of change in the Spirit on the Lord's day.

Ques. Does the ministry of the new covenant bring us into liberty? "Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty".

J.T. I think it would, but then we ought to be as wide as Scripture, and grasp a thing, and deal with the thing in that sense. There are so many things said which are alike, or more or less alike, but we have to grasp each one in its own setting and in its own meaning.

H.F.N. Would you kindly say a word in regard to the four thoughts. "Now the Lord is the Spirit"; and secondly, "where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty"; and then "looking on the glory of the Lord"; and the fourth "transformed ... from glory

to glory, even as by the Lord the Spirit", as to which apply to the Lord, and then how the Spirit is brought in, so that we might have the truth definitely before us in relation to each expression.

J.T. Well, you can give us help, Mr. N. Just break it up yourself into small parts.

H.F.N. In connection with the first, "The Lord is the Spirit", it has been so often spoken of as the spirit of Scripture, but is there more in it than that?

J.T. I think Mr. Raven said that, but I doubt that, I think we had better keep to what we have here.

H.F.N. That was what one would like to get help on, that it is something more than the spirit of Scripture.

J.T. I think that is right.

H.F.N. Then the second reference is "where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty". Would that refer to the presence and operations of the Holy Spirit as introducing liberty?

J.T. Yes. Quite so.

H.F.N. Then finally, "transformed according to the same image, from glory to glory, even as by the Lord the Spirit". The question is, does that refer directly to the Holy Spirit?

J.T. I think "the Lord the Spirit" is the Holy Spirit. You have noticed, of course, that the article is left out in both cases, before 'Lord' and before 'Spirit'.

P.L. Is the new covenant ministry the great formative power to furnish and fill the saints as the vessels of the sanctuary? Are the saints, in relation to the service of God, formed and furnished through the new covenant ministry?

J.T. Therefore you have to include all the sisters as well as the brothers, who have the Spirit. Although the sisters, of course, are not to speak in assembly, but at the same time, they are members,

for they are of the assembly, they belong to the body of Christ. They would, therefore, be vessels even though they do not speak, because they can express themselves in many ways, in their looks and in many other ways. The Spirit is the power for the operation of all that.

P.L. I was thinking of David as the one in whom the covenant was set forth, typical in that way of the Lord, preparing the vessels for the sanctuary, that is for the service of God.

J.T. Yes. Just so. You refer to the vessels; that is to say, every member, or person, is of the body, because he has the Spirit.

Ques. Will you say a word as to why, at the Supper itself, the cup of the covenant is emphasised?

J.T. I think because it is the drinking that is in mind. I think it is alluded to in 1 Corinthians 12, "so also is the Christ". 'The Christ' there covers not only the Lord Himself as Head, but all the members of the body. It is "the Christ".

Ques. Would it also cover verse 13 of chapter 12? "For also in the power of one Spirit we have all been baptised into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether bondmen or free, and have all been given to drink of one Spirit".

J.T. I thought that was the thing that touches us, because of the idea of drinking. The idea of drinking, I think, is satisfaction, so all that would come in, and then the power of the Spirit would make all that effective in us. At a time like this, what are we doing, what are we taking in, what are we absorbing? Well, it is a question, of the Spirit, for the Spirit enables us to take in things that are said.

Rem. I was thinking of the peculiar place that the Spirit would have at that moment in the Supper.

J.T. That leads to the thought of what the Supper really means, and what enters into it. With

the systems around us, of course, the Supper is, you might say, abrogated; it is nothing; they have not the true thought of it at all. Everything depends on the teaching of the truth as to the Lord's supper. It all depends on that, and then our making way for it in ourselves, so as to be effective in the use the Lord would make of us, at any given time, because it is a question of the divine service, the service towards divine Persons.

E.C.M. So that we become glorious ourselves. It is not only that the Lord Jesus is glorious, but the saints become increasingly glorious, would you say?

J.T. Quite so. So that when the Spirit has His place we can see things. The term 'the Christ' would include, not only the Lord Himself, but all the members of the body, for it is a question of the body of Christ. Now something comes into my mind as to the use of the word in chapter 10. "The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of the Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of the Christ?". Now the blood is placed before the body, and that has to be observed too, because the Spirit has put it before the body, "The cup of blessing which we bless". That is at the Lord's supper.

E.C.L. Is that because it may have to do with the relations we have with one another, how the spirit of forgiveness is connected with the covenant. 2 Corinthians 2 has to do with forgiveness.

J.T. Yes, of course, but the idea of forgiveness in the covenant, in the true sense of the word, is more what Christ does. He forgives us.

E.C.L. I was wondering whether, as brought in here first, it would have to do with the way in which we appreciate it, and hence how we look upon one another.

J.T. Yes, only I think we might as well make a difference between that and what Christ does in the

sense of forgiveness. The full thought is that repentance and forgiveness of sins is to be preached among all the nations. Well, that is a full thought; that is not the question of our forgiveness of one another, it is a question of what Christ forgives.

P.H.H. Would it be right to say that it is the cup as used at the Supper, but not exactly in the Supper setting. Is it in the setting more of fellowship?

J.T. Quite so, but still it is the cup. We only have one cup in the celebration of the Lord's supper. The unity in the bread should also be seen in the cup. It is one loaf and one cup.

Ques. Would you say a word as to the force of the word, "Which we bless", not 'which we drink' there, but which we bless. Is it on the occasion of the Supper that we bless it?

J.T. That is just what I was trying to say, I think it is what is seen in the Lord's supper.

P.H.H. The word bless means that you speak well of it.

J.T. Just so. That is the idea of blessing, speaking well of it.

P.H.H. So has the drinking an internal effect, and then the speaking relates to what comes out of us, the external side?

J.T. Quite so. At the Lord's supper the bread represents His own body, and that is the main thing. But then the cup is wine, of course, we might say, but it is the cup that is stressed, as conveying the idea of oneness.

N.K.M. Would you say a word about verse 29 of chapter 11, "For the eater and drinker eats and drinks judgment to himself, not distinguishing the body". Do we understand that you include all the saints in that reference to the body, or does the body allude to the Lord's own body?

J.T. That is the Lord's own body, I am sure. But then it says earlier, "This is my body, which is for you". That is also the Lord's body.

Ques. Could we have a further word as to the remark on verse 25 of chapter 11, as to "This cup is the new covenant" as referring to the peculiar place the Holy Spirit may have at that time in the Supper?

Rem. We were speaking of the link between the Spirit and the cup, and I think I remarked, Would not the Spirit have a peculiar place in our minds at that time, as bringing in the glory system with all its liberating power.

J.T. Well, it is a question of seeing how the Old Testament is brought in in a favourable time to the New, and the Lord Himself brings in the covenant in relation to the Lord's supper. Therefore the chapter in 1 Corinthians that we have read becomes very precious as to the heart. Really the section begins with verse 17, but I was thinking of the heart. It says "I received from the Lord, that which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus, in the night in which he was delivered up, took bread, and having given thanks broke it, and said, This is my body, which is for you" -- I take that to be the Lord's own body -- "this do in remembrance of me". That is the memorial, "In like manner also the cup, after having supped, saying" -- the word 'supped' there means a meal, a full meal -- "saying, This cup is the new covenant in my blood: this do, as often as ye shall drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye shall eat this bread, and drink the cup, ye announce the death of the Lord, until He come. So that whosoever shall eat the bread, or drink the cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty in respect of the body and of the blood of the Lord". So that it is the Lord's own personal body.

A.J.G. Would you say what was in your mind in having Jeremiah read?

J.T. Well, to show that the Lord Himself referred to it. That the Lord Himself should introduce this remarkable passage is very striking, and I think it points to the wonderfulness of the dispensation in which we are. We can hardly refer to anything fuller than that. What a time we are in, and what enjoyment we should have, this very moment, in the Lord's supper, and what flows from it.

Ques. So that joy and love are combined in relation to the cup of the new covenant?

J.T. Just so, and the order of things too. God takes occasion, so to speak, to stress the idea of order, for He is the God of order.

A.B. Would the writing on the heart have in mind permanent impressions on the saints?

J.T. That is what I was thinking, the heart being the centre of affections.

R.W.S. What is the point of "after having supped ..." -- for ourselves?

J.T. 'Supped', according to the foot note, means a full meal, and that is what the Corinthians were doing; they were eating a meal, which was very wrong; it was disorderly. They should not have done so; they should have done what we are doing now, and rightly doing, and that is just taking a very small part of the bread, and drinking a very small part of the cup. It is not the idea of a meal at all. Meals belong to our houses. The Corinthians were having a meal, and, in fact, it would seem that they were really getting drunk; they were getting under the influence of liquor. It would seem so.

W.S.S. Is it necessary to keep in mind in what we are considering, that the new covenant was made with Israel and not with the assembly, except that the assembly comes into the spirit of it now?

J.T. Just so. We have it, thank God, and the devil is not taking it away from us. We think of what has taken place during the last 130 years, and

the devil has sought to break it up, but God is helping us to hold to the truth of the Lord's supper, and all that enters into it. I believe we have been helped greatly in the last forty or fifty years as to the details of the Lord's supper.

F.C.H. You used the word 'salvaged' some years ago in regard of the truth in the Old Testament, how that the assembly is the depository of what is salvaged from the Old as well as having the light of all that is coming in.

J.T. Yes. 'Salvaged' is hardly good enough. If I used it then, well, I would not use it now, because the question of the Spirit is the point. The Spirit holds things together, so we have the whole idea, and I do not think the word 'remnant' is suitable, it is not really great enough. The whole idea of the Lord's supper has been revived and God is helping us to keep it.

Ques. I notice that at the Supper the expression "the cup of the Lord" is seldom or never used. Brethren often speak of the cup of the new covenant, which actually is not a scriptural expression, but why is it that "the cup of the Lord" is not used?

J.T. I think it should be, because it is the Lord's supper, and the cup of the Lord too, "The Lord's supper" and "the cup of the Lord" are both right scriptural terms. Do you use it here, in this meeting?

Rem. No. The expression 'the cup of the new covenant' is often used, but I do not find it anywhere. We get "the cup of blessing", and "the Lord's cup", and "the cup of the Lord", but not actually 'the cup of the new covenant'.

J.T. Well, I expect if you lead in that, you will be helped, and the brethren will follow you.

A.J.G. Does not the apostle stress the lordship, of Christ in relation to the cup where things were being allowed that were a denial of His authority?

J.T. Just so, I think the lordship of Christ is bound up with that expression.

H.A.H. Does the mind come in in relation to the new covenant? Here in Jeremiah it is "inward parts". In Hebrews it is "mind and heart" and "heart and mind". Would the mind link with the calling of the Lord to mind at the Supper?

J.T. Just so. The mind is used earlier in the book. It says in 1 Corinthians 2, "We have the mind of Christ". The mind, therefore, should be greatly stressed as to the Lord's supper. It is largely a question of the mind, although, as we have also mentioned today, the heart is the centre of affections. We have just mentioned that, but the mind is very important; I can see that clearly.

Ques. When Jeremiah 31 is quoted in Hebrews 8 it says, "because all shall know me in themselves". Does the added thought -- "in themselves" -- include the inward consciousness of the mind and heart?

J.T. Just so, and it would show the working of the Spirit in us. The Spirit of God is in us, and the temple of the Holy Spirit is the body of the believer, so that "in themselves" would mean that. How closely the thing comes to us personally!

CROYDON -- READING (2)

2 Corinthians 5:1 - 21

J.T. It seems as if we should go on with this epistle, although it had not been intended to go beyond the third chapter, but it has occurred to me since the morning meeting here that, in view of what preceded in the first epistle and so far in this epistle, the thought before us should be preparation for heaven rather than fitness for testimony here on earth and the service of God here upon earth. The first epistle seems to have in mind the service of God here upon earth and all that is suitable to it, but it seems now as if this second epistle should be in mind. It is not to ignore what has gone before in the first epistle, but the thought of our going to heaven and fitness for that is in mind now. It may seem a rather high intention, but I believe the Lord will help us at this time to consider it. The Lord's coming is so near that we should all be thinking of our fitness for heaven. Oftentimes it has been stressed that fitness for earth is more important, but I think it is due to God that we should have fitness for heaven in mind too, because it is a question of what God has prepared for those that love Him. "Things which eye has not seen, and ear not heard, and which have not come into man's heart, which God has prepared for them that love him, but God has revealed to us by his Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God". So that it is thought that this chapter would help us. First there is the idea of our tabernacle house, which is liable to be destroyed, and in view of the building from God eternal in the heavens, we can well afford to accept it. Some are old and expect to go to be with the Lord, but as far as one is concerned the thought has come that instead of death we should be

thinking of preparing for the translation. It says in 1 Thessalonians 4"The Lord himself, with an assembling shout, with archangel's voice and with trump of God, shall descend from heaven; and the dead in Christ shall rise first; then we, the living who remain, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall be always with the Lord". It seems as if the brethren should have it pressed upon them that the Lord's coming is very, very imminent. Of course, that has been said constantly for many, many years, but it looks as if we ought to have a little insight into the signs of the times, and see that it must be; it must be very, very imminent. Hence it is due to God that there should be preparation for it. There is, of course, preparation for the service of God down here, because that is also due to Him. There is that service and there is what is to be for Him eternally. He must have something in mind for Himself, and He has too, and so we have the idea of the "minister of the holy places and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord has pitched, and not man". Although that may be for the present time, yet it still bears on the thought of going to be with the Lord.

P.L. Would the experience of Paul and the thought of "a man in Christ" fit into your suggestion?

J.T. The reference to the "man in Christ" is the end of the whole book, and what you quote is in entire keeping with the remarks that have been made.

H.H. Should we not then keep in mind that a good bit has to be done after the rapture? I mean in the millennial ways of God on earth, and so on.

J.T. Quite so.

H.H. Might we refer to Habakkuk. It says the vision is written on tablets that he may run that

readeth it. That implies moving quickly. It also says the vision hasteth to the end. Does not that justify what you have been saying that there has got to be quick movement with the saints at the present time?

J.T. Just so, in view of readiness.

H.G.H. So this scripture refers to that which we know? Should it suggest that there should be definiteness in our thoughts in relation to it?

J.T. It is a statement of assurance. It is a sort of winding up of things to a finish. "For we know that if our earthly tabernacle house be destroyed, we have a building from God". A building from God -- there is a sure end to the thing both for God and for us. As regards ourselves, therefore, the thing is readiness.

W.S. Does the use of the little word if mean that the apostle had the possible coming of the Lord in mind?

J.T. Quite so, but it is the idea of assurance, "If our earthly tabernacle house be destroyed, we have ..." Now the 'if' bears on that; we have something certain, and that certainty often works out in the sense of being assured by being ready for translation, because it is due to God that we should be ready and not be careless.

A.J.G. Is "the earnest of the Spirit" brought in as helping that?

J.T. Just so; I thought that, and I suppose the bearing of the earnest is eternity -- eternal conditions that we are going into. He is the earnest of that.

P.H.H. Is this entirely from the divine side, or does responsibility enter into it?

J.T. I think responsibility does enter into it, because the word bears on that. "For we know that if our earthly tabernacle house be destroyed, we have a building from God". What we know affords

certainty, but still it is the certainty that requires preparation.

Ques. Does it not flow out of the previous verses at the end of chapter 4?

J.T. It is a steady working up of a system of truth. The "for" refers to a sequence in connection with what preceded it.

Ques. It says: "For our momentary and light affliction works for us in surpassing measure an eternal weight of glory; while we look not at the things that are seen, but at the things that are not seen". Is that not Paul's outlook?

J.T. Very good.

F.C.H. Does the thought of destroying include that the power of Satan may go to that length in regard to the believer's body?

J.T. Well, I think it is not simply the power of Satan, but what may happen in the sense of death, falling asleep.

F.C.H. I was thinking of what is said in the previous chapter, "cast down, but not destroyed". I wondered if the word 'destruction', or being destroyed, is stronger than dissolution.

J.T. It is the sequence, I think. "For we know that if our earthly tabernacle house be destroyed" -- that is what might happen through death -- "we have a building from God". It is what we have in view of that: "A house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens". That is, we have that for our eternal portion.

R.W.S. The apostle Paul seems to have had the decision in his own hands as to whether he would depart or whether he would remain for the progress of the saints. Is there something in that?

J.T. Just so. In Philippians, he decided in favour of the saints, that he would stay here for their sake. Is that your thought?

R.W.S. And I wondered if it does not work out today, if the brethren value a minister and ask the Lord to retain him with us, He will hear us. Is that going too far?

J.T. Just so. I do not see why any of us -- if we are assured and it is proved that we are of usefulness in the Lord's service and of usefulness to the saints -- might not confidently expect that God would answer our prayers. I certainly think so myself, as far as I am concerned. I can count on God for what is right to be done, and seek to promote it and to be ready for it, and not in any way to interfere with it. Why not? We ought to be confident, and have confidence in God as to all matters. We are about to enter into eternity and we ought to have confidence in God to be ready, and that He will help us. At the same time, as far as we are concerned, we ought to be doing all that is within our reach to be in accord with the mind of God. Why should we not? It is a question really of responsibility.

F.C.H. Is that seen in verse 9, "Wherefore also we are zealous, whether present or absent, to be agreeable to him"?

J.T. Exactly.

P.L. So that Enoch, pleasing God, was translated.

J.T. Just so. He was the seventh from Adam, which is a matter of account. Would you kindly quote that passage, please?

P.L. Genesis 5:21: "And Enoch lived sixty-five years, and begot Methushelah. And Enoch walked with God after he had begotten Methushelah three hundred years, and begot sons and daughters. And all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty-five years. And Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him".

J.T. God was thoroughly with Enoch, and Enoch was thoroughly with God too. "He was not, for God took him". God worked out the thought

exactly according to Enoch's plan. Why should we not expect that? I do not see why we should not, but then the idea or element of responsibility must not be forgotten, and it runs on to the last moment of our history here.

P.H.H. What was in your mind in relation to Enoch being the seventh from Adam?

J.T. That is what Scripture says. It was a question of time. He had come on from the first man that was created, he had come on from that time, and now the question is what the result was in his case; not in Adam's case, but in his case.

P.H.H. You mean it would represent a perfect result?

J.T. Exactly. It began early that believers should have the idea of responsibility always before them, and therefore the end should be according to the mind of God, and, of course, God will be with us in doing that. So that God took Enoch; God finished the matter, but it was in accord with Enoch's thought too.

P.H.H. Because he prophesied?

J.T. Quite so; he was a prophet.

P.H.H. It says, He "prophesied also as to these, saying, Behold, the Lord has come amidst his holy myriads" and so on.

H.H. The saints are heavenly, would heaven therefore put in its claim for them? They belong there.

J.T. Quite so. Hebrews 11 would show that -- "of whom the world was not worthy". There is a place for them elsewhere; this world is not worthy of them. Nor is it worthy of us today. The world is not worthy of the saints, who walk in the truth, in the light of the gospel and in the light of the assembly, and in the light of the coming of the Lord. The world is not worthy of us.

H.F.N. Is the same thought as you have been speaking of given us by Peter when he says, "All these things then being to be dissolved, what ought ye to be in holy conversation and godliness, waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God". Is that the same exercise in Peter?

J.T. Quite so; and so we have the idea of counting, or length of time. It says a thousand years is as one day, and one day as a thousand years; that is to say, it is the idea of counting time, so that we can come into accord with the mind of God as to it.

Ques. Why does it say in Hebrews, "By faith Enoch was translated"? How does faith enter into it?

J.T. I suppose the idea is to stress what characterises our own period; that is to say, the period in which Paul wrote. It is the faith period. In the chapter we have read it says, "we walk by faith, not by sight", but presently, in the millennium, it will be by sight, because there will be measurement of time.

A.J.G. Enoch walking with God would certainly be occupied with unseen things and not with seen things.

J.T. Just so, and then there is the time -- he was seventh from Adam. He does not say that himself, it is a question of God, and it says, "God took him".

H.H. Would the light of these things in the souls of the saints at the present time be faith?

J.T. Certainly; it is the characteristic of the whole dispensation in which we are. It is the dispensation, not of sight, but of faith.

A.B. Is the pleasure of God always to precede the thought of translation?

J.T. I think so. I think God would say that they are worthy. That is how God would reckon, but then He reckons that according to what we are, our conduct and walk, "We walk by faith", it says,

"not by sight". So in Ephesians 2 there is something that would bear on that. It says there "For we are his workmanship, having been created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God has before prepared that we should walk in them". That is the idea, that the whole matter will be worked out according to God.

A.J.G. Is the light of the judgment-seat of Christ brought in to help us in that, as regards our conduct?

J.T. That is the next thing we have to come to. So it goes on: "For indeed in this we groan, ardently desiring to have put on our house which is from heaven" -- we are desiring that house -- not death, but we are desiring that house. "Ardently desiring to have put on our house which is from heaven; if indeed being also clothed we shall not be found naked". That is to say, we will not be found naked, we will have a body from God from heaven, if we have not got this body. "For indeed we who are in the tabernacle groan, being burdened; while yet we do not wish to be unclothed, but clothed, that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. Now he that has wrought us for this very thing is God, who also has given to us the earnest of the Spirit". The earnest of the Spirit refers to an eternal portion -- we have the earnest of that.

Ques. Is there a reason why the believer's body in this passage is called a building and a house?

J.T. I think it is the thought of God. There is a similar word in Genesis 2. Adam was caused to sleep, but then a rib was taken out of him and out of that rib God built a woman -- He built it -- that is the idea, and that refers to the assembly and runs right through Scripture.

A.J.G. Does it include the thought of permanency in contrast to what is provisional? It is called a building, "a house not made with hands, eternal in

the heavens", in contrast to an earthly tabernacle house.

J.T. Quite so.

P.H.H. The term 'house' is used in the setting of weakness in the end of Ecclesiastes -- the break-up of the body -- "in the day when the keepers of the house tremble", and so on, and "those that look out of the windows are darkened, and the doors are shut toward the street".

J.T. That is written for old men, of whom there are several here.

P.H.H. But what you are saying now about the building would be in contrast to that -- it would be the eternal thing?

J.T. The eternal thing -- just so. We are going on to permanency. It is wonderful that we have such a prospect and it is so near to us. "Now he that has wrought us for this very thing is God" -- that is not simply apostolic; it is all of us who are christians -- "who also has given to us the earnest of the Spirit. Therefore we are always confident" -- that is the state of our attitude -- "always confident, and know that while present in the body we are absent from the Lord". When present with the Lord, we shall be in our future bodies, that is, the bodies we are coming to.

F.C.H. Does "this very thing" refer only to the body of glory, or does it comprise more than that?

J.T. I think it refers to the body of glory; that is the idea. God is working in us for what is permanent, not for a moment, but what is permanent. That is to say, God has had in His mind throughout, from the start in creating man, what is permanent, and in view of the Son becoming man, that everything would be in keeping with Him, in due time.

H.H. Is not the thought of the Holy Spirit in us a side of the truth which has been revived within

the last year or so, and is not that an important feature in connection with the nearness of the end?

J.T. I think so, because it is just about two or three years ago since the full thought of the Spirit has been revived. It was taken from Numbers 21, because the Spirit can be spoken to as well as that He should speak to us. It has been strenuously resisted by some, but I think the resistance is gradually disappearing.

H.H. I thought too, the Holy Spirit in us is so set against what is not of God in us. We are in a mixed condition, and there is that which is not of the Spirit in us. Is not the Spirit of God setting Himself very definitely against that, in order that we might be ready for glory?

J.T. Just so. He is the great Occupant of our house; I mean of those who have the Spirit.

A.J.G. Is this thought of the "house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens", the idea of a body that is capable of expressing the treasure that is in the believer, the knowledge of God?

J.T. I think so, I just wonder how it is going to be, and whether we are quite equal to it when it comes, and what we are going to be according to the mind of God; what we are going to display; what He is going to display in us. We ought not to be beyond thinking of it, so that we will be ready, in some sense, for it when the time comes, because "we are members of his body; we are of his flesh, and of his bones", we are told. Each one of us is a member, but still it is all one idea. It is a question of Christ's body, and the fulness in which He is to be expressed.

J.P. Is the house a collective thought?

J.T. I think so. It is not our houses, but our house. That is to say, the believer's house, taking in the whole idea of christianity, the whole idea of the assembly. Think of the vastness of it -- the work

has gone on for nearly two thousand years and it is still proceeding.

H.H. If you think of this, say, on the one hand the apostle Paul, and on the other hand a man like Mr. Darby, in what relation would they stand the one to the other in the eternal state? I mean there is an individual distinction, is there not, between the saints?

J.T. Surely. I suppose you would hardly say that any two are exactly alike, because the variety of God is wonderful. Even in the stars there is variety, and then there is all the variety on the earth, too, and it is all of God.

H.W.A. In connection with these three chapters, would it be right to think of the one we had this morning as transformation, and then chapter 4 as transparency, and now this one to be viewed more in the light of translation? I was thinking of chapter 4 -- commending the truth to every man's conscience; he was a citizen of God's city.

J.T. That is what was in mind when I started to speak about this chapter, and so we will read the end of the chapter again: "Be reconciled to God. Him who knew not sin he has made sin for us, that we might become God's righteousness in him". I should really have begun earlier, but that is the idea -- it is to prepare us for heaven and to make us ready for heaven. All this that we are speaking of has all that in view; it is not simply what our service is to be actually here; that is more in the first epistle, especially beginning at chapter 11, but what is more in mind is preparedness here in our bodies for heaven.

P.L. Would the heavenly city be included in that thought, "we might become God's righteousness in him"? It says of the city, "having the glory of God".

J.T. Just so; answering to "him who knew not sin he has made sin for us". Think of the wonder

of that passage: "Him who knew not sin he has made sin for us, that we might become God's righteousness in him". That, of course, is an eternal thought, for the idea of God's righteousness is to go on eternally. Why should the word 'righteousness' be used? I think God so values righteousness that He has kept it and He is going to keep it; it is simply what is right, but it is God's righteousness.

P.L. "New heavens and a new earth, wherein dwells righteousness", 2 Peter 3:13.

J.T. Just so.

H.H. That idea, being made sin, could only have come from the divine mind.

J.T. I would say that entirely.

W.S.S. Would the constraining love of Christ and the light of new creation be important elements in the preparing for the heavenly condition?

J.T. Surely.

H.P.W. You spoke about star differing from star in glory. You had some thought in that. Are there not to be all kinds, yet will not every star have a glory of its own?

J.T. That is just what I was thinking might come out. There is a great variety in stars.

H.P.W. I had in my mind the very precious thought that not only will the Lord come out in a glory all His own, but that He will be glorified in His saints, in the variety of glory seen in them.

J.T. "Glorified in his saints" -- that is a wonderful expression.

Rem. So that the assembly is one thought, one pearl, but the brethren of Christ and the sons of God bring in this great thought of distinction.

J.T. Quite so.

A.J.G. And yet, by divine workmanship, are they not so set together that there is nothing superfluous and nothing lacking?

J.T. Just so. It is due to God that we should recognise that with Him everything is perfect.

W.F. It says of Moses and Elias that they appeared in glory. Does that show that the distinctiveness of the believer remains?

J.T. Quite so. The disciples could discern Moses and Elias. They could discern the distinctiveness of each one. Think of those two expanded into myriads of people, and all like Christ! Think of the magnificence of that!

P.L. Would each star having its name fit in? It says "He counteth the number of the stars; he giveth names to them all", Psalm 147:4.

J.T. Just so.

W.C. The Lord speaks of those that are "counted worthy to have part in that world", and then He speaks of God as "the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob", Luke 20:35, 37. God is mentioned in relation to each name.

J.T. Just so. It says, "God ... is not God of the dead but of the living". We are all living, for all live to Him. That does not mean the wicked dead live to God, surely; but those that are alive and according to His purpose all live to Him.

P.H.H. One of God's early words to Abraham was about numbering the stars. It says, "Look now toward the heavens, and number the stars, if thou be able to number them". But this is an additional thought, bringing in their glory as well as their number.

J.T. So that we might well look at 1 Corinthians 15 to get a word on that.

A.J.G. 1 Corinthians 15:35 - 50, "But some one will say, How are the dead raised? and with what body do they come? Fool; what thou sowest is not quickened unless it die. And what thou sowest, thou sowest not the body that shall be, but a bare grain: it may be of wheat, or some one of the rest: and God

gives to it a body as he has pleased, and to each of the seeds its own body. Every flesh is not the same flesh, but one is of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another flesh of birds, and another of fishes. And there are heavenly bodies, and earthly bodies, but different is the glory of the heavenly, different that of the earthly, one the sun's glory, and another the moon's glory, and another the stars' glory; for star differs from star in glory. Thus also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruptibility. It is sown in dishonour, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body: if there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual one. Thus also it is written, The first man Adam became a living soul; the last Adam a quickening spirit. But that which is spiritual was not first, but that which is natural, then that which is spiritual, the first man out of the earth, made of dust; the second man, out of heaven. Such as he made of dust, such also those made of dust; and such as the heavenly one, such also the heavenly ones. And as we have borne the image of the one made of dust, we shall bear also the image of the heavenly one. But this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God's kingdom, nor does corruption inherit incorruptibility".

J.T. We have already touched on this same chapter in what we said at the beginning, as to our being prepared for the heavenly, so I think you might as well read to the last verse of the chapter.

A.J.G. Verses 51 - 58: "Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all fall asleep, but we shall all be changed, in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must needs put on incorruptibility, and this mortal put on immortality.

But when this corruptible shall have put on incorruptibility, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall come to pass the word written: Death has been swallowed up in victory. Where, O death, is thy sting? where, O death, thy victory? Now the sting of death is sin, and the power of sin the law; but thanks to God, who gives us the victory by our Lord Jesus Christ. So then, my beloved brethren, be firm, immovable, abounding always in the work of the Lord, knowing that your toil is not in vain in the Lord".

J.T. I hope the brethren were all following in the great appreciation that there should be with us of this wonderful chapter, and all these wonderful things we have been able to say about 2 Corinthians 5. It is a question of what we have been able to say, because all is written for our learning. We are now dealing with the things that are peculiarly for us, and so I believe the Lord has led us, without our thinking of it at the beginning of the reading, to all these great things that we have come to now, and the question is therefore whether we can go on further in the chapter so as to get all that there is in it. We might therefore proceed from verse 5: "Now he that has wrought us for this very thing is God, who also has given to us the earnest of the Spirit". We have the Spirit already in us, so that we are well capable of dealing with these things in that sense.

N.K.M. Would you say a word as to the bearing of the judgment-seat of Christ upon what you have been drawing our attention to.

J.T. We might as well proceed, if you will read on a little further in the chapter, because there are so many things in it -- so glorious.

A.J.G. 2 Corinthians 5:6 - 10: "Therefore we are always confident, and know that while present in the body we are absent from the Lord, (for we walk by

faith, not by sight;) we are confident, I say, and pleased rather to be absent from the body and present with the Lord. Wherefore also we are zealous, whether present or absent, to be agreeable to him. For we must all be manifested before the judgment-seat of the Christ, that each may receive the things done in the body, according to those he has done, whether it be good or evil".

J.T. The point, therefore, in view of the last question that has been raised is this matter of the things done in the body; what is available to us and what is possible to us, as the word is here: "We are always confident, and know that while present in the body we are absent from the Lord, (for we walk by faith, not by sight;) we are confident, I say, and pleased rather to be absent from the body and present with the Lord. Wherefore also we are zealous ..." Now that is the point, that we are zealous, "whether present or absent, to be agreeable to him". That is the great point; to be agreeable to God, just as Enoch had the testimony, that he pleased God.

Ques. So that there would be a present correspondence to what would come out at the judgment-seat of Christ?

J.T. Just so. So that when we come out in glory we shall not be very different from what we are down here, because we have been walking according to this chapter.

E.C.M. The woman in John 4 in going back to the city says, "Come, see a man who told me all things I had ever done, is not he the Christ?" Would that suggest something of the present aspect of the judgment-seat of Christ?

J.T. I would say so. She had come under the Lord's touch, and everything had been changed for her. But then she left her water-pot, meaning she is leaving things here for the things that are there -- the coming glory.

P.H.H. What is the thought of receiving the things done in the body?

J.T. I suppose it is the idea of reward; the things done are to be received in that sense, as a reward. But you had something in your mind.

P.H.H. The saints will be in their glorified condition, so that it is not in any sense a question of penalty, you would say?

J.T. God will know exactly how to measure things, and you may come short in that sense. You may come short in the sense that you might have been more. Therefore there is always the suggestion of responsibility to acquire all that is possible.

P.L. And a sense of loss, do you think?

J.T. Well, just so.

H.H. Would the judgment-seat bring in the kingdom side of things?

J.T. I suppose so. It is the judgment-seat of Christ; not of God, but of Christ.

H.H. You will not be rewarded for what you never did, I mean, would not some be higher up, so to say, on the kingdom side of things than others?

J.T. Quite so. Although there will be no room for regrets, yet, at the same time, there is the actual fact that there might have been more. But still I do not believe there is any idea of room for regrets at all in eternal conditions.

Rem. So that Paul said even to the Philippians: "I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more".

J.T. Quite so; that is good, "More and more".

Eu.R. He says the same to the Thessalonians in the chapter that gives us the rapture. "Even as ye have received from us how ye ought to walk and please God, even as ye also do walk, that ye would abound still more".

Ques. Why does he bring in the terror of the Lord?

J.T. It would be the negative incentive, I suppose, of the very things we have been talking about. What do you say yourself?

Rem. He brings it in in connection with persuading men, not exactly as applying it to himself.

J.T. Quite so, but the saints might be said to be the men, too. "Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord we persuade men, but have been manifested to God, and I hope also that we have been manifested in your consciences. For we do not again commend ourselves to you, but we are giving to you occasion of boast in our behalf, that ye may have such with those boasting in countenance, and not in heart. For whether we are beside ourselves, it is to God". He is speaking of himself now, but then he is blending it with the general ideas that are before him, "For whether we are beside ourselves, it is to God; or are sober, it is for you. For the love of the Christ constrains us, having judged this, that one died for all, then all have died; and he died for all, that they who live should no longer live to themselves, but to him who died for them and has been raised. So that we henceforth know no one according to flesh; but if even we have known Christ according to flesh, yet now we know him thus no longer. So if any one be in Christ, there is a new creation; the old things have passed away; behold all things have become new, and all things are of the God who has reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and given to us the ministry of that reconciliation, how that God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, not reckoning to them their offences; and putting in us the word of that reconciliation". Well now, I think we have a wonderful line of things here to fill out our chapter, because there is so much in view of our being translated to heaven. It is really one of the most glorious chapters.

P.H.H. Does the thought of the judgment-seat enable us to pass over into the atmosphere of what is eternal, without any sense of being wrongly there, or unsuitably there?

J.T. I think we ought always to challenge ourselves, at least from time to time, as to whether we are conforming to what is set out before us. Christ is the pattern and we are to be conformed to the image of God's Son. We should therefore have these things always before us, and, of course, Philippians helps us greatly, as we have already remarked, but this chapter is quite enough. As we are here today I think we should keep ourselves to it, because it is so full of glory, and expectation in view of the Lord's coming. In fact, I have been impressed all this afternoon, since I left the house where I was, until now, that the Lord would have us to look at all this in view of the imminency of the Lord's coming, and to be ready for it.

H.H. Christ is there in the new condition. Would that apply to where it speaks of our not knowing Christ after the flesh? Does the thought of new condition come in there?

J.T. "So that we henceforth know no one according to flesh; but if even we have known Christ according to flesh, yet now we know him thus no longer". I think the apostle Paul is really speaking of his own experiences, and anticipations, too. But he is also speaking to the saints at Corinth, and he wants them to get all his mind, and to come into it, and be conformed accordingly.

Ques. Would you say a little on the difference between reconciliation and new creation?

J.T. It is a comparison that we have often had. Reconciliation is one thing and new creation is another. Reconciliation is to be conformable to the mind of God; we are conformed to the mind of God

-- that would be reconciliation; but new creation is absolute; it is finished.

A.J.G. So that reconciliation has reference to a past history and condition of things?

J.T. Just so. New creation, of course, is new creation; it is a finished idea.

Rem. It never was anything else but of God.

J.T. Just so -- "all things are of the God ..."

W.S. Would it be right to say that reconciliation is objective, and new creation subjective?

J.T. In a certain sense I think I would go with that. We had a good deal of it in Mr. Raven's time that illuminated us all.

P.L. And a helpful reading in Park Street in 1922 on this subject. You urged that reconciliation was in the mind of God. Mr. Raven having presented it to us that where there was distance now there is complacency.

J.T. That is good. I think I remember it now, as you go over it.

E.S.H. Does the "in Christ" enable us to pass into what is wholly new creation?

J.T. Well, just so. The acceptance of the idea of "in Christ" in the mind, would enable us to lay hold of things, especially when we remember that the Spirit of God indwells us, for He is operating all the time in us; that is, if we let Him.

F.C.H. "Given to us the ministry of that reconciliation" and "putting in us the word of that reconciliation", are they both apostolic or does the second one include the saints?

J.T. Verse 18 is apostolic.

F.C.H. Yes, and then verse 19: "How that God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, not reckoning to them their offences; and putting in us the word of that reconciliation". Would you bring the saints in there?

J.T. The "in us" is a question of Paul's ability and service, I would think. It says, "putting in us the word" -- 'the word' there is the expression of that reconciliation and that really is a subjective idea.

Ques. So that they were in accord with their ministry?

J.T. Quite so. And then the next verse says: "We are ambassadors therefore for Christ". The word 'ambassadors' would mean they are representatives in the ministry -- Paul was representative in his ministry -- it is apostolic in that verse -- "We are ambassadors therefore for Christ, God as it were beseeching by us" -- God beseeching by Paul, in other words -- "we entreat for Christ, Be reconciled to God". That is what he is saying; he is entreating the Corinthians to be reconciled to God. It is a great and full thought.

Ques. Would you say a word to enlarge the thought of "God was in Christ, reconciling the world"?

J.T. It is a glorious gospel thought, that is what I would say. It is the full glorious thought that was in Paul, "How that God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, not reckoning to them their offences ..." and again "putting in us ..." that is to say the full idea of the gospel put into Paul; it is Paul's gospel. Peter had a gospel, too, but Paul's gospel is the supreme one.

P.H.H. Does the idea of reconciliation enable us to enter fully into the counsels of God?

J.T. I think it does, because you feel that you are restful -- you are at home, as it were, literally. You are at home in the full thought of God. You know Him so well that you are at home in His presence, and that, of course, leads you to heaven itself.

Ques. Would the words 'beseeching' and 'entreating' show that this matter of reconciliation was a feeling matter, both with God and with the apostle?

J.T. I think so, I think Paul would reflect what was the mind of God, and what was in the heart of God. So that we are gradually coming into the fulness of things in the end of the chapter, the fulness of the gospel and then the fulness of the ministry of the assembly, too. That is, all would be in Christ practically in His service down here, and it is a question of how much we are getting out of it at a time like this.

J.G. Is the best robe of Luke 15 linked with reconciliation?

J.T. I think so. There are a good many dear brethren here who have preached from that chapter, and no doubt we can get a good word about it if we all say what is in our minds.

Eu.R. I think you said in that reading referred to, that justification clears me but reconciliation retains me for the pleasure of God.

J.T. Well, that is good; that has added a little to what Mr. L. said.

P.H.H. Would the best robe go further than reconciliation? Would it bring in the full thought of what Christ is in heaven?

J.T. Well, I think the best robe is Christ; it is what He is Himself. We are to reflect what He is. I suppose the assembly will be the full thought of what Christ is; she is said to be His fulness.

E.S.H. Would it be reconciliation, when the father kissed the prodigal?

J.T. Well, I suppose it would be. There would be correspondence with the prodigal in every way, you might say, as in the presence of God.

H.H. He was fit to wear the best robe, was he not? "Bring out the best robe".

J.T. Quite so.

P.H.H. Were you going to say some more about the assembly being the fulness of Christ?

J.T. It says, "the assembly, which is his body, the fulness of him who fills all in all". What do you say yourself?

P.H.H. I was thinking something like that. Would it be the idea of the complete expression of what is in Christ coming out in the assembly, like Eve, for instance, the woman?

J.T. Quite so. Someone has referred to Adam saying, She is myself over again. That commends itself to me, and I was touched by it at the time. It is as if the Lord would say, It is myself over again.

F.C.H. We were noticing in verse 5: "Now He that has wrought us for this very thing is God", and then in the last verse we get, "Him who knew not sin he" -- that is, God -- "has made sin for us". How wonderful it is that the same God who has wrought us for this very thing is the God who made Christ sin for us.

J.T. And the full result is for God too. "That we might become God's righteousness in him".

Ques. Has that last statement reference to eternity, or does it include the present time also?

J.T. I think it is a full reference in a very wonderful way, to what was in the mind of God. "That we might become God's righteousness in him". So that we would reflect God Himself; what He is as righteous.

Rem. What we are now and what we shall be.

J.T. It is a gospel statement, really, you might say, and it goes on -- it is perfect. It leads on to the end, the fulness of the thought of God. It is God's righteousness; it is a question of what answers to Christ being made sin, and reflects what God Himself is. It is, you might say, a finish to the whole subject here.

W.S.S. Does it necessarily lead on to the thought of the new heavens and new earth wherein dwelleth righteousness?

J.T. I think so. It is in accord with that.

Ques. I should like to ask, would the beseeching in verse 20 apply to man generally or to the Corinthians: "Be reconciled to God".

J.T. It is really, you might say, abstract. It does not say definitely who it is. It just says, "Be reconciled". This is what he says really in effect, "We entreat" -- it does not say whom he entreats, it is a general thought -- "we entreat for Christ, Be reconciled to God". It is a general thought, I think, and you cannot fix it on any thing or person. It is a general thought conveying the mind of God as to persons, whoever they may be, and it shows that God has that in His mind for them.

CROYDON -- READING (3)

John 4:1 - 30

J.T. This scripture is suggested partly because it is the first day of the week. It has come before us, from time to time, that there should be recognition of the day, and that we should seek to bring the service of God into it. This section therefore of chapter 4 affords a good example as a subject, for the service of God peculiarly enters into it, not simply in an ordinary sense, but in a worshipful sense. The thought of worship comes into the passage peculiarly, the Lord referring to it in the discourse with the woman of Samaria. He says "The Father seeks such as his worshippers", but the conversation with the woman opens it up, she introducing the subject of worship.

W.S. How does the unsatisfying character of the waters of this world contribute to the matter we are now speaking about?

J.T. It contributes to it negatively. The Lord is said to be wearied with the way He had come, and then it says, "A woman comes out of Samaria to draw water. Jesus says to her, Give me to drink (for his disciples had gone away into the city that they might buy provisions). The Samaritan woman therefore says to him, How dost thou, being a Jew, ask to drink of me who am a Samaritan woman? for Jews have no intercourse with Samaritans. Jesus answered and said to her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that says to thee, Give me to drink, thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water". Now the matter is thus introduced, the woman saying further that she discerned that the Lord was a prophet. It is a question, therefore, where our discernment is in a time like this, so that we should get something out

of it, discerning that the Lord is a prophet, and discerning the spirit of prophecy.

Ques. Is the greatness of the Person as the Giver of the Spirit in view?

J.T. I think so, and that is in keeping with the spirit of John's gospel; it is a question of the greatness of the Person of Christ. So in the first chapter we read, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" and so forth. The subject is introduced there, and it is a question of the greatness of Christ, who He was. "All things received being through him, and without him not one thing received being which has received being".

Ques. Does that link on with verse 10 of this chapter where the Lord says, "If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that says to thee, Give me to drink ..."?

J.T. "Who it is". Quite so. The Lord says elsewhere, "Thou shalt see greater things than these". He always brings in what is to be seen as great.

W.S.S. I think when we were looking at this passage here some years ago, it was suggested that the woman would be suggestive of the assembly. That seems to lift our thoughts on to a high level in relation to the passage.

J.T. That is, the woman as converted. Quite so. Before she was converted, she would not be illustrative of the assembly; you do not mean that, of course.

W.S.S. No. At that time we were considering the thought of man and woman, and the Lord addresses her here as "Woman".

J.T. I think that is good. Perhaps we will be led on to the fulness of it, so that the assembly is in view, because it is said in the end of the passage that she left her water-pot, meaning that she saw the end of natural things. She came to the end of natural

things, she "left her water-pot and went away into the city, and says to the men, Come, see a man who told me all things I had ever done, is not he the Christ?". So that the thing came into her mind that He was a great Person. He was the Christ. The Lord, in fact, had told her that He was the Christ, which is a very remarkable thing. It is doubtful that He told anybody formally that He was the Christ, save this woman.

W.C. When the woman says, "Sir, I see that thou art a prophet", would that link on with Joseph's cup -- the thought of the one who divines and discerns? I was thinking that the woman had some sense that she was in the presence of the true Joseph. He is alluded to previously in the chapter.

J.T. Just so. The well is implied in that, and would you say, leading up to the whole thought of the water that the Lord proposed to give.

W.C. Quite. I was thinking of what was said yesterday about the cup of the Lord, and wondering whether it would fit in with that. It is the challenge to our hearts as to conditions, so that there might be no hindrance to the flow of worship.

J.T. Very good. I think you would do well if you said more about the cup of the Lord.

W.C. It is connected with the thought of jealousy in 1 Corinthians 10. "Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy?". I was thinking of the jealousy of love that would expose and deal with everything that might hinder the worship.

J.T. Just so.

A.J.G. Does the woman's action in leaving her water-pot indicate that she recognised that now she herself was to be a vessel of the Spirit?

J.T. That is just what I thought. Why should she carry a literal water-pot, when she had the spiritual water? "The water which I shall give him", the Lord says.

A.J.G. I wondered if that would be a good thing for every brother and sister to recognise fully, and whether the assembly would not greatly benefit if every brother and sister regarded themselves as vessels of the Spirit and therefore contributory to the service.

J.T. Yes.

H.G.H. In verse 10, where the Lord says, "If thou knewest the gift of God", is the Spirit referred to there?

J.T. I think so. The Lord really had that in His heart, when He says that. "Jesus answered and said to her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that says to thee, Give me to drink, thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water". That was what was in His mind. The great gift is the gift of eternal life. "God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whosoever believes on him may not perish, but have life eternal".

E.S.H. The Lord Jesus had spoken in chapter 3, of speaking of heavenly things. Is this woman leaving her water-pot prepared to leave the things she would be drawing upon in regard of earth, but to live in heavenly things by the Spirit?

J.T. I suppose so. She left her water-pot, and then she became evangelical. It says, "The woman then left her water-pot and went away into the city, and says to the men, Come, see a man who told me all things I had ever done, is not he the Christ?". So that I think, in going to the men, she became evangelical. Hitherto she might well be afraid to go to them, but she was not afraid to go to the men now. She did not seek out the women simply, she went to the men, and said, "Come, see a man who told me all things I had ever done". I think she was wholly superior now to all the natural feelings that might have been with her. So she left her water-pot,

intending undoubtedly to go in for heavenly things, but then it was not only that but she went to the men. She was evangelical, and it is a good thing for sisters to learn to be evangelical and to be entirely free from natural thoughts.

P.L. So that it says in Philippians, "our commonwealth has its existence in the heavens", and so on, and immediately afterwards we have the reference to the true yoke-fellow, and to those "who have contended along with me in the glad tidings".

J.T. You mean the woman symbolised that?

P.L. Yes, the evangelical spirit flowing out of the heavenly position.

J.T. Just so. In fact, the word 'them' in the passage you quote from Philippians is a feminine word, is it not?

P.L. That is right. It might read 'Those women'.

E.C.M. Does the idea of the living water suggest that the service of God is a living matter?

J.T. Well, just so. Peter said of the Lord, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God". The service of God implies what is living. Is that what you meant?

E.C.M. Yes, and also the thought that the assembly is "the assembly of the living God".

J.T. Quite so.

Rem. When the Lord says, "who it is that says to thee", is He really referring back to what it says at the end of chapter 3, "The Father loves the Son, and has given all things to be in his hand".

J.T. I suppose that is quite right.

H.H. Would you say a little as to eternal life in connection with the thought of the living water. We have the thought of eternal life in the previous chapter, and then it is brought forward into this chapter in verse 14, "the water which I shall give him shall become in him a fountain of water, springing up into eternal life".

J.T. I think the idea in chapter 3 must enter into this, because it is a question of the gift of eternal life, and that must spring out of the fact that it is a question of the Spirit. "Springing up into eternal life" alludes to the Spirit, which is, of course, important now from the standpoint of the light into which the Spirit has brought Himself, that He is an Object. The Spirit is the power of eternal life. It is not simply a question of light, and that one can have light by believing, but the power of eternal life. The power of the Spirit works out into eternal life.

Ques. Is all that necessary if God is to be worshipped in spirit and in truth?

J.T. Just so. Our service therefore on the first day of the week must be the outcome of the Spirit in that sense.

Rem. I was wondering whether this woman depicted soul history with every one of us, if we are to form part of a vessel in which God is to be worshipped in spirit and truth. It involves detachment from what is not right, and becoming, as you have said, a vessel of the Spirit and receiving the knowledge of God and power to respond to it.

J.T. I think that is good. So that what comes out in connection with the woman is that the Lord raised the question of her having had five husbands; He said, "Go, call thy husband, and come here". It is as if He would bring out the polluted conditions in which she had been, but even that would not hinder Him in making her a suitable vessel for the service of God, because she left her water-pot, implying that she was to be a vessel herself. The whole subject now before us implies the service of God, and that is dependent upon vessels. Several things are mentioned in the case of Elijah in 1 Kings 17, and they are put into vessels. It reads: "And he arose and went to Zarephath; and when he came

to the entrance of the city, behold, a widow woman was there gathering sticks. And he called to her and said, Fetch me, I pray thee, a little water in a vessel, that I may drink. And she went to fetch it, and he called to her and said, Bring me, I pray thee, a morsel of bread in thy hand. And she said, As Jehovah thy God liveth, I have not a cake, but a handful of meal in a barrel, and a little oil in a cruse" (1 Kings 17:10 - 12). She was impoverished, it was only a little of everything, but whatever it was it was to be in a vessel, and in this chapter the woman herself is to be a vessel. She became a vessel after she had conversation with the Lord, so that I should think that the first day of the week now is a time for vessels, and vessels to be used in the service of God.

E.C.M. Would you connect the springing up with what you suggested this morning, in the word, calling forth all that is within us?

J.T. It would be that because it was a spiritual thought. You would not call upon what was within you other than what is spiritual. The thing would be out of all keeping with the position referred to here, if we referred to something, physical. It is something spiritual that is in mind in the suggestion of calling upon all that is within us.

G.C.S. Is the heart satisfied first? It says "whosoever drinks of the water which I shall give him shall never thirst for ever". Is that a satisfied heart? One felt this morning it was satisfied hearts by the Holy Spirit enjoying His love that were available for the praise of God.

J.T. Quite so, and then it speaks about what it became in her. "The water which I shall give him shall become in him a fountain of water, springing up into eternal life". Well now, that is something. What has happened? It is a change in the person

from mere water to what springs up into eternal life. There is a change in what it becomes in the believer.

Ques. So does the fountain indicate life and spontaneity?

J.T. Quite so, but it becomes something. There is a change implied, and we can easily challenge our own hearts as to whether there is a change in us inwardly, and the needed change which God demands from us.

Ques. Is the woman changing in verse 15?

J.T. "The woman says to him, Sir, give me this water, that I may not thirst nor come here to draw". Is that what you allude to?

Ques. Yes, because immediately the Lord says to her, "Go, call thy husband". Is she changing her head?

J.T. Quite so. The Lord implies that there must be a change, if there is anything at all to be in her. There must be a change.

A.W. "Whosoever drinks of the water ..." Does that involve intercourse with the Holy Spirit?

J.T. I would say that.

A.W. So we have a New Testament passage for speaking to the Spirit.

J.T. Quite so. Very good.

A.J.G. This change which you refer to -- "the water which I shall give him shall become in him a fountain of water, springing up ..." -- would that involve the Spirit's part in the service, giving a living touch to it so that there is a springing up?

J.T. Yes. What prevails on the first day of the week ought to be of that character, and the service of God, of course, would take on the character of springing up, because it is toward God really, but it becomes in a person, so there is something for God already in the person. If there is not a change of that kind, I would think there is not much evidence of the work of God in a man.

H.H. You get in the Old Testament, "Rise up, well! sing unto it". There is a power arising, is there not?

J.T. Quite so. There is something that is tangible, but spiritual. The nobles of the people sang. They sang to the well, which, as has been remarked, was typically speaking to the Spirit. That is what helped me some years ago, to refer to the Spirit as spoken to.

Ques. Would prophetic ministry have in view the promotion of this change with us?

J.T. It would seem so, so that I think we might go on to this matter of what the Lord said to her. He says, "Go, call thy husband, and come here. The woman answered and said, I have not a husband. Jesus says to her, Thou hast well said, I have not a husband; for thou hast had five husbands, and he whom now thou hast is not thy husband, this thou hast spoken truly. The woman says to him, Sir, I see that thou art a prophet. Our fathers worshipped in this mountain, and ye say that in Jerusalem is the place where one must worship. Jesus says to her, Woman ..." That is, I think, the point where she comes into things of moral worth, when she is called a woman. It means that she is truly what she is, what God has made her creatively. The Lord recognises that she is that, that she has emerged from what she had been -- the wife of five husbands. She is now a true woman; I believe the Lord meant that, and I believe that all that follows is based on that. The Lord recognises her as being what she was creatively, in her own place.

H.H. When the Lord refers to the man who was not her husband, does the change come in there? I mean it was an unlawful link, was it not?

J.T. Well, quite. The Lord is really dealing with her morally. He is dealing with the moral condition

in which she had been, and that is the basis of what comes out as to worship, and all else.

H.H. And is not the moral side of things the point of importance for us? If that is not attended to, it would get in the way of what is spiritual.

J.T. Just so. Many things are allowed to get in the way of what is spiritual on the first day of the week.

Ques. Does not Paul strive for this with the Corinthians, when he speaks of their being espoused unto one man?

J.T. Just so. It is a remarkable thing, that he alludes to a feminine thought there, although the persons he spoke to were men as much as women. It shows that the feminine thought is applied to the assembly, and, of course, it must be if the assembly is to be espoused to Christ. That is the great point that will come out in due time, that the feminine thought must be in the assembly and the masculine in Christ Himself. I do not know whether the brethren go with what I am saying, but I am sure it is true, and the apostle alludes to it in the language he uses, "I have espoused you unto one man", and the espousal is of all the saints in Corinth. The word, 'espousal' would allude to a man and a woman; so that the assembly is to be regarded as espoused. The idea of the assembly is feminine, and the idea of the masculine is in Christ, because the assembly is espoused to one Man, and the one Man is Christ.

Ques. In the reference in Hebrews 2, "In the midst of the assembly will I sing thy praises" -- is that the feminine thought of the assembly?

J.T. Well, just so. In fact, we had that this morning, in connection with the service of the Son, the Lord Jesus, to the Father, "in the midst of the assembly". But I am glad you allude to the assembly as a feminine thought.

N.K.M. I think you stressed in your word that it was "the assembly", not "my assembly".

J.T. That is true too, and I think it just fits in to what is being said now. It is not simply "my assembly", the Lord says, but "the assembly", although the 'the' is not in the original literally, what Mr. Darby gives us is clearly right. The 'the' is right.

H.P.W. So it says in verse 29 of our chapter, "Is not he the Christ?". The "he" is the blessed Man, the Lord Jesus.

J.T. It is a masculine thought, you mean.

Ques. Would you say why the Lord uses the term "the true worshippers", in verse 23? What constitutes true worshippers?

J.T. We have to take the Lord's word. He used the word 'true' Himself. If He used the word 'true' He means it, and we have to follow it out, because the idea of worship is in view.

W.J. Is the thought of the feminine that she leans upon the arm of her beloved? "Who is this that cometh up from the wilderness, leaning upon her beloved?" Song of Songs 8:5. Is that a feminine thought?

J.T. "Her" would be, of course. Quite so.

W.J. And her attitude too is normal for the assembly?

J.T. Quite so. The Song of Solomon has been greatly used in modern times, and the feminine thought is much stressed in it, and then, as we have said, the masculine side is in the Lord Jesus Himself. The book begins with the feminine thought. Would you kindly look at the beginning of it and see how the feminine comes into it.

A.J.G. "The song of songs, which is Solomon's. Let him kiss me with the kisses of his mouth; for thy love is better than wine". That is evidently the feminine speaker.

J.T. Quite so. That is what I meant. This is the feminine speaker, and she is alluding to the masculine. She is speaking; she begins the book really.

A.M. Is the Lord reminding the woman in John 4 of her femininity in asking her to give Him to drink? I was thinking back to Genesis 24, and wondering whether it is not a right feminine movement to give Him to drink.

J.T. Quite so, but it is rather a long stretch to carry the thought here back to Genesis 24. It would be a question of interpretation, therefore.

A.M. I was only thinking that the Lord waits on her to minister to Him. Is not that a very great element in the first part of the service, that He should be served.

J.T. I think we should say that the Lord, in all He had said at the outset, intended to bring out what was in His mind, and that she was to be the subject of it, but He does not come to it until He calls her 'Woman'.

Ques. So that the service of God was in the Lord's mind from the outset?

J.T. Quite so. That is just what it is.

E.C.M. Do you mean that the Lord must have the assembly for that? Is that the thought here? "In the midst of the assembly will I sing thy praises".

J.T. Well, just so.

Eu.R. That verse comes forward from Psalm 22, which is "Upon Aijeleth-Shahar", meaning 'the hind of the morning'.

J.T. Just so. It is the heading of the Psalm.

Eu.R. Is not the Lord likened in the Song of Songs to a hart, and there are allusions also to the hinds? Both are characterised by great resiliency of movement, and is not that what the service of God calls for?

J.T. Quite so, and "the hind of the morning" is the feminine thought.

P.L. The word 'hour' is used there, and in Mr. Darby's note to 1 John 2:18, he refers to it as a period characterised by one thing, and hence looked at as only one time. It is what is supreme and characterised by one thing, and marked by intensity.

J.T. Quite so. Now we might proceed. It says in verse 14, "The water which I shall give him shall become in him a fountain of water, springing up into eternal life. The woman says to him, Sir, give me this water, that I may not thirst nor come here to draw. Jesus says to her, Go, call thy husband, and come here. The woman answered and said, I have not a husband. Jesus says to her, Thou hast well said, I have not a husband; for thou hast had five husbands, and he whom now thou hast is not thy husband, this thou hast spoken truly. The woman says to him. Sir, I see that thou art a prophet". Now that is a thing that I think we might dwell upon a little, that she saw He was a prophet. She had discernment, "I see that thou art a prophet", she says, and then she proceeds, "Our fathers worshipped in this mountain, and ye say that in Jerusalem is the place where one must worship. Jesus says to her, Woman ..." That is the first time she is called 'Woman' by the Lord. It means that the feminine thought is stressed in her, and undoubtedly the Lord has in His mind to work out something alluding to the assembly.

Ques. Why does the Lord say to her in the end of verse 17, "Thou hast well said", and then again "this thou hast spoken truly"? Does that indicate that the change that you refer to is taking place, so that the Lord speaks of her in that way as speaking truly.

J.T. I think the Lord meant that she had not been speaking truly at all up to that; she was not

reliable, but she is now coming to it. That is the first time she has come to it, and so the Lord says, 'Woman' to her. It says, "The woman says to him, Sir, I see thou art a prophet. Our fathers worshipped in this mountain, and ye say that in Jerusalem is the place where one must worship. Jesus says to her. Woman". That is the first time, I think, that she is recognised by the Lord as in her true place, and it is a great matter when we come to what is true in what we are saying, and in any confession we make. "Jesus says to her, Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when ye shall neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem worship the Father. Ye worship ye know not what; we worship what we know, for salvation is of the Jews". Now there is another point and that is that the Lord acknowledges that He is a Jew Himself. "We", He says, "We worship what we know". The Lord is rightly taking the place (it must be rightly, of course), but it is a fact to be noted, that He takes the place of being a Jew. In the 'we' He refers to Jews.

N.K.M. What would be the significance of that?

J.T. The Lord was sent to the Jews, "I have not been sent". He says, "save to the lost sheep of Israel's house", Matthew 15:24. He made that a point. The Jews had to come into view first, and then the gentiles; and so it was that Paul was raised up to bring in the gentiles.

Ques. Is it not remarkable that the Lord should speak to this woman of the Father?

J.T. I think it is, and so we might as well proceed fully with the thing because we have nearly come down to the end of our subject now. The Lord said, "The hour is coming and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth; for also the Father seeks such as His worshippers. God is a spirit" -- now, that is another thing you hardly ever get before -- "God is a spirit; and

they who worship him must worship him in spirit and truth". So that God is not material in any sense; He is a Spirit. But then it says further in John's gospel, "No one has seen God at any time; the only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him". We cannot, therefore, assume to have seen God; He is invisible.

H.H. Does that not bring in the mediatorial system that has in view that God might be known, the Lord Jesus and the Spirit serving to that end?

J.T. Just so. The Lord Jesus became Man, so that He could be seen. God is not seen, "No one has seen God at any time", the Lord says.

H.H. Do you connect the three divine Persons in the mediatorial system, or only the Lord Jesus and the Spirit?

J.T. The three must be included in the thought of God. "God is a spirit", and if the context shows that it is simply the Father Himself, excluding the Son and the Spirit, then, of course, we can accept it -- but God is a Spirit; I mean to say God sometimes includes the three Persons. Any One of the Three can be called God, but then the Three all together can be called God and are called God. "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" -- well, that is the three Persons. In the interpretation of it, it implies the three Persons.

A.J.G. So would it be right to say that the Father, and the Son, and the Spirit all have their part in the mediatorial system, although it is the Son who is the Mediator and the Spirit who also serves in a mediatorial way?

J.T. Quite so. The Father has never become the Mediator. The term does not imply that. "The Father" is the idea of a revelation or a family; "The Father" refers to a family usually.

W.S.S. The references to the worship at Jerusalem and what is called "this mountain" would be

lacking in intelligence, but I take it that the worshipping in spirit and in truth would be intelligence in variety and fulness in the light of the revelation of God.

J.T. Quite so.

Ques. Why is it the Lord adds in the second instance, "the hour is coming, and now is"? Is it because of what He has brought in?

J.T. Quite so. It is the worship of God and He brought it in.

A.W.P. In the service in relation to the Lord Himself, it is the feminine side, but in regard to worshipping the Father, it is as sons that we worship. Does that involve that the feminine thought of the assembly is dropped?

J.T. We have already stressed the idea of the assembly being feminine. The assembly worships the Father. Now I would like to get your thought, because we do not want to misunderstand each other.

A.W.P. That is why I wanted to get it clear. Does the feminine thought continue to the end of the service of God?

J.T. It does continue because the assembly is always feminine. The word implies that.

A.W.P. Is there any point in the service where we change over in mind to sonship?

J.T. Well, there is. There is in assembly service, but it is a question of whether it is in time or in eternity, because the assembly will ever be the spouse of Christ. That is, the idea will be feminine. She is the spouse of Christ; she is ever that.

A.W.P. Yes, I think that is clear to most of us, that she ever remains, as into eternity, the feminine. She is the woman. But then, I thought the sons come in more in regard to the service of God.

J.T. Oh! well, I am following you now, that sisters in the assembly would be viewed as sons.

Therefore the feminine thought is dropped as regards them, but not as regards the assembly as a whole; because in the worship of God on the first day of the week, for instance, it is so many persons, but the assembly is a unity. It is one idea, and that is where the feminine remains, that is where the feminine is seen, but the sons of God are so many persons; it is not collective. They are never viewed as anything but sons, individuals.

Rem. So that the Lord speaks of "worshippers" -- persons.

J.T. Quite so.

Ques. You have been speaking about the vessel in the earlier part of the chapter. It is all in view of producing worshippers?

J.T. Quite so.

G.W.B. May I ask a question in connection with what you were quoting just now in chapter 1, "No one has seen God at any time". Would you say something about what is said in Exodus 24 as to the nobles of the children of Israel, where it says they saw God.

J.T. I think you have to bear in mind that the Scriptures have to be reconciled; we cannot make them contradict each other. So in Matthew 5 there are certain persons of whom it is said that they shall see God, but we have to treat that according to the context, and discern what the idea of seeing God is. You might say, if we see the Son we see God, because He is God; He is the true God. But then we have to keep to the context of Scripture and see what is meant in that case, "He is the true God and eternal life". One might say, well, we see Him in that sense, and we do too, because the Lord Jesus has been seen and will be seen eternally.

Ques. Is it significant in the verse that is quoted from Exodus, the Spirit of God through Moses says, "as it were" twice in one verse, as though there is

not an attempt to define what was seen? "They saw the God of Israel; and there was under his feet as it were work of transparent sapphire, and as it were the form of heaven for clearness".

J.T. "As it were" is a form of speech. That is all there is in that. We know what is meant, anyway.

G.C.S. When Job said, "Mine eyes have seen thee", would it be simply in creation, in all the wonders brought before us?

J.T. Whatever it was. The Spirit of God records it thus, and God is to be seen in that sense. But then we cannot contradict John 1, "No one has seen God at any time; the only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him". So the word 'declare' has also to be borne in mind. The word 'declare' is said to have the force of the three Persons. The three Persons would be in mind, "No one has seen God at any time; the only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him". It may be God in that sense. The word 'declare' means a reference to other Persons. I am only referring to the original, according to what I have read, or understood.

A.J.G. Do you mean that the "he" may refer to the three Persons, or the "him"? "He hath declared him".

J.T. The word 'declare', the active part of it, refers to more than one Person.

H.H. Could it not read, "the only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared"? The 'him' is bracketed, as if there is no justification for the word.

J.T. Quite so. Declaration is an open question, an open matter. The language implies that it can be used in that sense. It is a question of language.

Rem. And that makes worship possible. The Lord says, "We worship what we know".

J.T. Just so. We do not want to say much about the Lord worshipping God, you know, I think it would be better not to use the expression, though the Lord does there, saying, "We know what we worship". I mean to say the whole question is language. What we are speaking of now implies language and the use that can be made of language. God has made language, and we can use it accordingly.

Rem. God must be known to be worshipped.

J.T. Well, just so.

Ques. Could I refer back a little to the remarks as to the worship of the Father by the sons, and to what has been brought forward as to the change from the feminine to the masculine side, when the Spirit of sonship fills our hearts, and ask if there is something that is due to God that would involve the feminine side of the assembly? "In the midst of the assembly will I sing thy praises". Does that come into the service of God?

J.T. I would say there that the word 'assembly' is feminine itself.

Rem. That is what I have in mind. But we do not have this side very much. We generally turn from addressing the Lord to speaking to the Father in sonship.

J.T. Yes. Well, that is quite right, but then it is so many persons. The sons are so many persons.

Ques. Yes. I understand that, and that the great collective idea is the assembly, but when would this singing of the praises of God in the midst of the assembly take place?

J.T. I think it would be in the collective sense. The assembly is collective.

Ques. Where does the verse in Hebrews 2 come into the service of God, "In the midst of the assembly will I sing thy praises"?

J.T. Well, the assembly will be formed of persons, of course, but it is a collective idea in just the

ordinary sense of the word 'collective', and the idea of sons is a personal idea -- so many persons. But what I am saying I am sure is right, that the masculine and the feminine must merge into the idea of Christ and the assembly.

Ques. The masculine and the feminine, did you say, must merge ultimately?

J.T. Yes, I mean the masculine in Christ and the feminine in the assembly.

Ques. I follow what has been said, that the assembly is a collective and feminine thought, whereas sonship is more the individual thing, but the point in my mind is, where in the service of God does the singing of the praises of God take place? I am alluding to Hebrews 2, "In the midst of the assembly"; that is the feminine idea of the assembly.

J.T. I do not know that we can assume to be the full collective idea, but the collective idea, as I have said, will be ultimately (which would be eternally) seen in the assembly itself; and it will be only that, if we exclude the idea of Israel. Of course, the feminine is applied in her case, but it does not come into our dispensation. The ultimate thought of God, I am certain, is that the masculine is seen in Christ and the feminine is the assembly viewed collectively. That is the best way I know of putting it. It is a question of examining into it, as to whether language admits of all that, but I am sure it is. The feminine must appear ultimately in the assembly as the spouse of Christ. This is the word, "The Spirit and the bride say, Come". The bride is a feminine thought, and Christ is the masculine.

Rem. So there will be only one woman in eternity, in that sense.

J.T. Well, just so, unless we say that Israel is a woman too, because the feminine is applied to her. The idea of the bride, that we have alluded to already in the Song of Solomon implies that, but that

will not appear, as far as I can see, in the eternal conditions. There are only two ideas, the one idea is Christ the masculine. He is the masculine in everything, and the assembly is the feminine in everything.

A.J.G. Is it possible that the thought of sonship, from the divine standpoint, is to emphasise dignity and liberty and intelligence rather than to stress any masculine thought?

J.T. Just so. Besides the Father must have some portion in the Lord's day morning meeting, and that portion is in the sons.

Rem. So that the personal side in sonship continues into eternity.

J.T. I think so. The sons of God will be there. We are all sons of God in Christ Jesus.

H.H. Would you place the assembly as such before God in the feminine character?

J.T. In the sense that the Father has His pleasure in Christ and the assembly. He must have peculiar pleasure in Christ and the assembly, but then the Father has His own sons, and we do not connect the sons of God with Christ personally, because they are sons of God.

H.H. The sons are the assembly viewed in another light -- are they not?

J.T. In another light -- quite so. Sonship is one idea, and the assembly, the feminine idea, is one idea. The assembly is not the spouse of God, that is never said. The word 'assembly', the feminine idea, would refer to what she is to Christ. It says, "Christ and the assembly". The feminine is the assembly and Christ is the masculine. The idea is, that Christ and the incarnation must be brought into it all, to make it simple.

Rem. I remember your saying some years ago that every reference to the bridegroom in Scripture was filled out in Christ's manhood.

J.T. Well, I think it is, "He that has the bride is the bridegroom".

W.F. Is the close of Ephesians 3, "to him be glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus unto all generations of the age of ages", the feminine thought going into eternity, in the assembly?

J.T. Quite so, "In Christ Jesus".

P.L. You helped us in 1946 in London in relation to the thought of brethren, the assembly, and sons, that they are collateral thoughts and each involves the same persons.

J.T. Quite so, I would say that now, too.

Eu.R. And they all go on into eternity.

J.T. Quite.

WORTHING -- READING (1)

Ephesians 1:1 - 23

J.T. I have the word 'elevation' in mind, considering the first chapter of Ephesians this morning, because of the spiritual elevation that is found there, and then this afternoon the part of Corinthians which treats of the service of God too, but what relates to what is physical in the sense of elevation, because there is physical elevation too, which we hope will come about presently.

It need not be remarked that it is not intended to pursue this chapter in Ephesians in detail. It is one of the fullest and most blessed chapters in the Bible; the thought is just to touch on it from the standpoint of spiritual elevation. Later we hope to look at Corinthians in which the apostle speaks of being caught up to the third heaven, which would be physical elevation. Now it is a question of what is moral and spiritual, so that we might be lifted out of the mere naturalness of the scene around us into what is of God, and spiritual, in the sense of elevation. We all know how the heavens are in mind, and so it says here: "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies". It is a word peculiar, I believe, to Ephesians -- "heavenlies" -- and it refers to heavenly-mindedness and heavenliness in the sense of spiritual elevation.

F.B. You mean that we should understand somewhat of this spiritual elevation now?

J.T. Just so; that is the idea. We shall have the physical presently, which Paul speaks of as to himself, when he was caught up a good many years before. We cannot assume how often that happened, apparently it was only once. But Thessalonians treats of an elevation which will be literal. "For the

Lord himself ... shall descend from heaven" and then we shall be changed and caught up so as to be with Him in the heavenlies.

P.L. "And he built his sanctuary like the heights".

J.T. "Like the earth which he hath founded for ever". Quite so. God has great thoughts, of course, in this sense, both moral and spiritual, and then physical, because all these things enter into the coming thoughts of God, and into His present thoughts too. The present thoughts are in mind in this reading, because the epistle to the Ephesians treats of the blessings that belong to us, as given to us in Christ.

Ques. Would you say that the spirit of the apostle is moved in worship to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, as he thinks of the elevation in the heavenlies in Christ?

J.T. I would think so, I suppose, no one anywhere in the universe, except divine Persons, could speak as he does. He could speak as having been given the ministry of the assembly, and all that enters into it.

Rem. An understanding of this is necessary for the service of God.

J.T. That is what is in mind. The service of God really begins with the Lord's supper as in Corinthians.

R.S.W. Would the upper room be in keeping with that?

J.T. Very much so. Luke refers to it in connection with the Supper, and also brings it in in Acts l, and he tells us who were there. The apostles were there, of course, and there were several women too.

Ques. Is the suggestion of elevation also seen in Paul's visit to Ephesus in Acts 19, where he is stated to have passed through the "upper districts"?

J.T. Very good. That has often been referred to and is quite in keeping with what we are saying.

It says the "upper districts". Whatever they may have meant literally, the word "upper" gives character to them in a spiritual sense. He had to do with lower things, too, humbling things. He tells us what he had gone through in the sense of suffering. Of course, we shall come to that presently, but it is well to have it in mind that the apostle gives an account of the sufferings which he endured. And so he comes to visions and revelations in 2 Corinthians 12, but here it is moral and spiritual elevation, as I was saying. It is in order to take the saints out of the level of this world and all that is in it, so that we might live in heavenly places, because that is our proper elevation -- our proper living place.

A.J.G. Is the reason for this elevation that the blessing which Ephesians speaks of must be according to God Himself?

J.T. Quite so. It is largely a question of God, too, in the epistle, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ". It is a full title as to God.

A.H. In Acts 19, the first question Paul raises after arriving at Ephesus through the upper districts is as to the receiving of the Spirit. Has that an important place in what is in your mind?

J.T. Quite so. It is a question of the Spirit, as if the full truth of Ephesians depends on the Spirit, and what has come to light of late, too, making it very effective.

F.B. Have you in mind that this thought of elevation should be constantly in our minds throughout the week?

J.T. I think so. If we are in business, we are apt to be thinking of our business and what importance we have in it and what it is, and so forth, whereas the elevation we are dealing with now would lift us above all that. Then when we come to it, if the Lord is pleased to take us to Himself, or through death, we have to think of literal elevation,

that we are going to be with the Lord. It says, "To depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better" -- that is elevation, surely.

A.M. As to the moral side, do you think the word in verse 1 as to the "Saints and faithful in Christ Jesus" enters into that side of things? Is there certain faithfulness that the apostle discerns in the locality?

J.T. Quite so. Undoubtedly the work of God went on well at Ephesus. We are told of it in Revelation, of course, but then there has been declension from the level on which Paul had placed it. Paul had placed christianity at its full thought -- the divine thought -- in the sense of elevation. Paul had specially placed it there, and he was faithful in doing so, and then evidently the saints were faithful at first, but later, alas, according to the book of Revelation, they had declined -- they had left their first love.

Ques. What is the character of these spiritual blessings with which we are blessed, in view of this?

J.T. It would be hard to cover them all, but perhaps as we proceed with the chapter (that is the reason why I read the whole chapter) we might touch the blessings we are brought into; not ordinary earthly blessings as there will be in the millennial day, but heavenly blessings. It is characteristic of the present time -- the recovery as we properly speak of it -- that the epistle to the Ephesians is the great top-stone of the truth to which we have been recovered.

Rem. You said this is what we enjoy together, at the Lord's supper, did you not?

J.T. Yes. What we should enjoy together. Of course the subject of the Lord's supper is in Corinthians, not in Ephesians, and one great point of Corinthians is headship, and we touch it here in the last verse or two of this chapter. It says, "in which

he wrought in the Christ in raising him from among the dead, and he set him down at his right hand in the heavenlies, above every principality, and authority, and power, and dominion, and every name named, not only in this age, but also in that to come; and has put all things under his feet, and gave him to be head over all things to the assembly" -- notice this "to the assembly" as if the assembly has part in the headship -- "to the assembly, which is his body, the fulness of him who fills all in all" (verses 20 - 23).

Ques. So that whilst the Supper takes place in the wilderness, the light of what is heavenly is to bring about elevation in the service?

J.T. Quite so. We have in mind elevation in the service, and that we are gradually coming to the idea of sonship. We partake of the Lord's supper at the beginning and then reach the thought of sonship in relation to the Father; the Holy Spirit Himself comes into it, for He is the Spirit of adoption, which is the Spirit of sonship.

P.A.R. Would the expression "in Christ" give the full measure of the elevation you are speaking of?

J.T. No, I do not think so. Of course "in Christ" is a great measure, but at the same time it is not so much the point of elevation as the fact that it is in Him -- in Christ, and Christ may be regarded as down here in the Spirit, only God has raised Him up and set Him at His right hand. He is in the heavenlies in that sense, but we know that He has come down here since that time, the Lord has actually been down here on earth since He went to heaven. He has a way of coming down. The epistle to the Corinthians will instruct us as to it.

W.W. Does the moral elevation touch on the great thought of being holy and blameless before Him in love?

J.T. Yes, but I did not want to go away from the point just raised, as to the Lord Himself actually having been down here. He may be regarded as down here, too, in a certain sense, because in Matthew He is not said to have gone into heaven at all; it is the assembly gospel, so that the Lord is where He can come to us and make Himself known to us, I would not like to move away from that, because I think the brethren ought to think of it more than they do.

Ques. You are alluding now to "I am coming to you" connected with the service of God?

J.T. Quite so. It is not coming for you, but coming to you. He will come for us, and that will bring about physical elevation, but in the meantime He is coming to us, and that is in the service of God.

Ques. Paul, in writing to the Philippians, says: "The Lord is near". Is that more in the characteristic sense that Matthew presents Him as being with the saints all the days?

J.T. Just so. It is a comforting thought that He is near.

Rem. In John 20 it says: "The disciples rejoiced therefore, having seen the Lord", and their only record of that meeting is "We have seen the Lord".

J.T. If there is one record, that is quite enough, for the Scripture cannot be broken. It is a great thing in John 20, that there is such a thing as seeing the Lord. It used to be said by certain ones that the Lord was always in the midst, but He is not, for He has gone to heaven literally, and He is at the right hand of God, angels and principalities being made subject to Him, but He comes. He is a divine Person and can come as He wishes; we must always recognise that. We cannot control Him, He comes as He wishes, and He does come, too, in the spiritual sense which we are now dealing with, but He came, at the

beginning, literally. He was with the disciples forty days, literally, before He went up.

L.H.R. Is His present coming to us by the Spirit?

J.T. Well, you might say that, and yet you cannot be too sure because the Lord is a divine Person. There are three divine Persons; the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, and the Three are presented under one name in the gospel of Matthew.

A.J.G. It would seem as though even before the Lord died He was accustoming the disciples to His coming in and going out, because in Acts 1 it says. "Of the men who have assembled with us all the time in which the Lord Jesus came in and went out among us, beginning from the baptism of John until the day in which he was taken up".

J.T. He has a right to do that; He is a divine Person. We cannot assume He is under control in any sense, but what He wishes He can do. So that the idea of the Lord coming to us is of first rate importance in order to bring out the thought of the service of God.

F.B. Then should there be conditions with us that would, so to speak, cause the Lord to come among us?

J.T. Just so. We cannot say that He should come. We must have the conditions if we assume that He comes. We assume here in this town that the Lord comes to us every Lord's day, but are you sure about that; we have to be sure about it. The conditions may not warrant it, they may keep Him away too. So that He may withdraw, and so forth.

Rem. His coming, in that way, is His own act.

J.T. It is presented in that way, I would say. "I will beg the Father", the Lord says, "and he will give you another Comforter, that he may be with you for ever". Then the Lord goes on to say that He comes to us -- "I am coming to you". It is not

'I have come', but "I am coming to you". It is a present action, that we regard as privilege and gives character to assembly service. It makes it heavenly.

Ques. Does the verse in the Song of Songs suggest that He comes in relation to an elevated position? "The voice of my beloved! Behold, he cometh leaping upon the mountains, skipping upon the hills".

J.T. Very good. That part of Scripture has been much used during the last forty or fifty years, and has greatly enhanced the service of God -- making the Lord's supper the beginning of it. Then we go on to the Father, and lately we have had the Spirit of adoption, so that we may enter into that sphere at that time.

J.O.S. Does Samuel give us the proper exercise when he says: "We will not sit at table till he come hither"? Is that the spirit in which we should be together on Lord's day morning?

J.T. Just so, "We will not sit at table till he come".

G.W.B. Is it significant that it says in Acts 20 with regard to Paul, "Having gone up, and having broken the bread"?

J.T. Just so. He went up, because he had come down in love. He came down in love to enfold, in his arms, the boy that had fallen. The breaking of bread evidently was deferred, and that is why it is put in that way. The apostle went up and then they broke bread and then he went away, so that it was a happy season.

Ques. Would you say what the evidences are that the Lord has come into our midst? In John 20 He was actually seen.

J.T. I think the affections of the brethren will be moved. It is a question of movement of affection towards Him. It is a wonderful time. We meet each other first; that is the idea of the Lord's

supper, and we greet each other, and then in due time we are in unity in the assembly; it is the assembly time, because the Lord's supper belongs to the assembly. Paul says, "When ye come therefore together into one place, it is not to eat the Lord's supper", but it should be. Paul says it is not the truth, but it should have been that; it should be the Lord's supper if we are going to begin the service of God. Not that we may not call prayer the service of God, but the full idea of the service of God begins with the Lord's supper, and hence the apostle said in the chapter I am referring to in Corinthians, "It is not to eat the Lord's supper". He wanted to blame them and get them right about it, but there is no blame here in Ephesians 1; everything is according to God.

Ques. Would you say that you get an expression, so to speak, of the stirring of the affections in 1 Samuel 16? It says, "He sent and brought him in. And he was ruddy, and besides of a lovely countenance and beautiful appearance".

J.T. And he was David; that was his name, and the name carried a meaning. It is 'the beloved' really.

Rem. The stirring of the affections when he comes in -- every eye beholding him.

J.T. Quite so. David in that chapter is a type of Christ. When David came in all was aglow; his brothers were not equal to it for the moment, but he was -- it was his moment. It was David's moment. His name means 'beloved', and of course we have here the thought of beloved. It says in verse 6: "He has taken us into favour in the Beloved". It is the Lord Jesus.

A.L.C. Would you say that our affections sometimes have to be stirred before we recognise the Lord, like the two on the way to Emmaus? Their

eyes were holden, but they knew Him in the breaking of bread.

J.T. And they reproved themselves afterwards -- why did they not know Him? So we do well to reprove ourselves if we do not discern the great privilege that is accorded to us in the Lord coming to us.

J.S.E. Would the question of Rebecca to the servant help us in the normality of this matter of the Lord's coming to us? "Who is the man that is walking in the fields to meet us?" You remarked just now that it was a question as to whether the Lord came in by the Spirit, but is not the Spirit essential to us for the discerning of the Lord when He comes in?

J.T. Yes, but we cannot say that the Lord must come by the Spirit.

J.S.E. No, I am thinking of ourselves as needing the Spirit for discerning the Lord when He does come.

J.T. Just so. David says to Abigail, "Blessed be thy discernment", and that is the point we are on now in Ephesians.

J.S.E. And does not the word 'see' in John's gospel often imply discernment rather than visibility?

J.T. Very good. I would say that fully.

W.C. In John 21 it was the disciple whom Jesus loved that said, "It is the Lord". Is it love that discerns Him?

J.T. Very good. John has that peculiar designation -- "that disciple therefore whom Jesus loved". If we read Revelation we will read about John. But we are now dealing with Ephesians where the full divine thought of christianity is set out; and it is in the assembly that the Lord comes, and He serves in the assembly. The assembly is the great vessel of His service, and this epistle indicates what the Ephesian assembly was. It was in accord with the

mind of God, but what is said about it in Revelation is that it had fallen. There was departure, for it had fallen from its first love, but still there was something there that the Lord respected and spoke to. The first address of the Lord is to Ephesus, showing that it had the greatest place, really, in the assembly; greater than Jerusalem. It does not say that the Lord wrote to Jerusalem; it was to Ephesus He wrote first.

A.J.G. Would the fact that the Lord says to Ephesus, "Remember therefore whence thou art fallen", show that He felt the giving up of the elevation?

J.T. Just so; that is what the Lord felt -- "I have against thee". We do not want to have the Lord against us, because He is stronger than we. If He be against us, He will let us know it; He will make us feel it.

Ques. Would the word 'first' there be first in quality, and not necessarily in time -- "thy first love"?

J.T. That is right. It is the freshness of the love. It may wane and grow cool, or cold, but first love, I am sure, is fresh love, and the Lord values it.

Ques. Is it important here that the truth stands in relation to the purposes and counsels of God, so that if there is recovery it is to what is unchanged in itself?

J.T. Quite so. So that the Spirit of God being here, there is enough to bring about heavenly conditions and the recovery, too, I believe, implies that the heavenly conditions have been recovered. That is what has happened during the past hundred or hundred and twenty years. There has been a real recovery of the assembly and the truth as to it. So we have these meetings constantly, and God is helping us through them. The first day of the week and all that enters into it has acquired great increase

of power because of the service that God has rendered in the ministry that has come to us as to it during the last fifty years.

G.C.S. Would the blood being brought in here assure to us all these privileges and blessings on the basis of redemption?

J.T. The blood, of course, is only one thing. There is more than that needed, for the Spirit is needed as well as the blood. Blood may bring people into the millennium, but the Spirit will bring them to heaven. That is what He is doing now; He is bringing us to heavenly places.

G.C.S. In Colossians the blood is left out to concentrate on the greatness of the person of Christ, but here the foundation of all these blessings for us is in the redemptive work of Christ.

J.T. The work of Christ, quite so. But then, as I said, it is of immense importance to make room for the Spirit. Of course the Spirit will have part in the millennial day, too, but not in the same sense as it is now. The Spirit is here Himself fully. He has come down -- been sent down -- from heaven.

A.J.G. It says here that the Holy Spirit is the earnest of our inheritance. That is more than light, is it not? It is the positive enjoyment already in the Spirit.

J.T. Just so. Of course the earnest is not quite the whole thing, but still the Spirit is great enough to bring about the thing in principle.

Rem. Would you say a word as to why the Holy Spirit is called "the Holy Spirit of promise" here. The chapter deals with purpose, generally.

J.T. Well, it is to enhance the thought of the Spirit, which has been done and is being done by Himself at the present time. He is the Holy Spirit of promise -- not simply the Holy Spirit, or the Spirit, but the Holy Spirit of promise, the idea of promise bringing in love. There is something peculiar

in promise -- promise is a peculiar word, and it refers to something given, so that the Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit of promise. He was anticipated as given, but now He is given. So you rightly ask people, Have you got the Spirit? Perhaps they would say, No; well then, the thing is you should ask, for the Spirit of God is a gift. The greatest of all gifts is the Spirit of God. Eternal life is the next greatest gift, but the Spirit of God must be the greatest of all gifts, because He is God Himself.

W.C. So when Achsah asked her father for a blessing, he gave her the upper and the nether springs.

J.T. Quite so. The upper and nether springs are the full thought, figuratively, in that particular Old Testament scripture. So it is here, the Holy Spirit of promise, but we have the Holy Spirit of God also.

A.H. Are you thinking of chapter 4 verse 30? "Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God".

J.T. Yes, that is what I thought. I knew the passage was here, because it is the full thought, and it is a question of gift. It is a wonderful thing that we have such a gift as that; it is God Himself, really. But we have to make distinctions in our minds as to how the gift is to be thought of.

Ques. In the end of John 3, the Lord Jesus says: "God gives not the Spirit by measure". Earlier in the chapter He speaks of the heavenly things: "If I say the heavenly things to you, will ye believe?" Is the giving of the Spirit without measure in view of heavenly things?

J.T. "God gives not the Spirit by measure". He gives It as He has given It to the assembly. The whole idea of the Spirit is in the assembly. In the millennium, it will be different; there will be measure attached to it. Things will not be so great. The fact of the matter is, I believe, that the idea of Israel will have to cease in time -- it may be a thousand years, but

it will have to cease. The full thought is here now, in what we are dealing with. The Spirit is not given by measure.

H.F.N. Would you say a word on what follows: "The spirit of wisdom and revelation in the full knowledge of him". Would that maintain us at the full height of elevation of which you have been speaking?

J.T. Just so, but what have you got in your mind, please, fully?

H.F.N. In relation to the thought of elevation, how the Spirit comes in first as wisdom, or resource, and then the idea of revelation which is the thought of unveiling. Would not that be the power to enter into this great elevation which you so preciously brought before us?

J.T. I would say that, surely. "The full knowledge of him" and then again, "being enlightened in the eyes of your heart" -- showing that it is a place of affection in our hearts -- "so that ye should know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, and what the surpassing greatness of his power towards us who believe, according to the working of the might of his strength, in which he wrought in the Christ in raising him from among the dead, and he set him down at his right hand in the heavenlies, above every principality, and authority, and power, and dominion, and every name named, not only in this age, but also in that to come". That is a wonderful statement as to the glory of Christ.

Rem. That makes the position in which the assembly is seen at the end of the chapter all the more remarkable.

J.T. Just so. The assembly is greatly stressed, as I am just about to read: "And gave him to be head over all things to the assembly". It is a remarkable thing; not only that He could be head over

all things, but it is "to the assembly". The assembly has part, clearly, in the headship. It is a remarkable thing -- one of the most remarkable things we can get on this point. So it goes on to say, "Which is his body". The assembly is the great vessel -- "which is his body, the fulness of him who fills all in all". That is the full thought of God, it refers to Christ and the assembly.

F.B. Have you in mind that it is possible in our measure to reach that on a Lord's day morning?

J.T. I think so. It is a question of the place we give the Spirit, and what cannot be available to us if we give full place to the Spirit? So God has helped us in the way the Spirit has been brought forward by Himself. The Spirit has done it Himself, and it is to enter into the service of God and make it complete and full for God at the present time. Then in the eternal state, of course, it will be there too. It will be there in perfection, and that, of course, will enter into what we shall have this afternoon, because in 2 Corinthians 12 Paul speaks of being "caught up". He says: "I will come to visions and revelations". It is a time of revelations.

A.H. In saying 'the place we give to the Spirit on Lord's day morning', have you in mind more than carrying the thought in our minds, but perhaps addressing Him personally on that occasion?

J.T. Quite so. People refuse the thought of addressing the Spirit, but it is quite wrong to refuse it, because He is a divine Person; why should we not address Him? It is due to Him, and it is due to us too, to the assembly that it should be properly understood in that way.

Rem. You get the thought of elevation in Colossians 3, "If therefore ye have been raised with the Christ, seek the things which are above, where the Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God, have

your mind on the things that are above, not on the things that are on the earth".

J.T. Just so. It is not simply the things that are of heaven, but "the things that are above". It would give stress to the idea of elevation, and it belongs to Colossians, but Ephesians is the proper sphere of it.

F.V.W. Would one of the greatest things in connection with the gift of the Holy Spirit be the insight into affections between divine Persons Themselves.

J.T. I would say that -- the insight into it. So in John 3 we have: "Except any one be born anew he cannot see". That is, new birth is necessary to see what is going on in the divine realm. But then he has got to be born of water and of Spirit as well. That is to say, redemption is needed as well as new birth. New birth is one thing, but redemption is another.

J.S.E. Is it not significant that in this epistle which deals with matters at such a great altitude, the Spirit of God is referred to at least three times in a way that He is not referred to anywhere else? "The Holy Spirit of promise, who is the earnest of our inheritance to the redemption of the acquired possession" in chapter 1. Then the expression that has been referred to in chapter 4: "The Holy Spirit of God", then in chapter 5 as he comes forward to the mystery of Christ and the assembly, is it not the only time in Paul's ministry where he exhorts the saints to be filled with the Spirit? Are not those references suggested to us as the necessity of the Spirit on our side, if we are to come into the gain of this elevation that you have referred to?

J.T. Very good. The Lord Himself is spoken of as full of the Spirit, which is very remarkable. So that in this epistle we get correspondence with Christ Himself. She is presented as a suitable bride

for Christ -- that is, she is His wife, according to Revelation 19.

P.L. The allusion to the Spirit as the Father's Spirit (chapter 3: 16) is also unique to this epistle, is it not?

Ques. Why do you think the "eyes of your heart" are emphasised?

J.T. That is a moral thought. It is the seat of the affections, I would say. The full thought of affection is there in power by the Spirit.

G.C.S. Does it help, where the Lord refers to the Spirit in Luke 24:49? He speaks of "the promise of my Father" and then being "clothed with power from on high" -- not from heaven.

J.T. Quite so; "... till ye be clothed with power from on high", as if the Lord meant that they should not be here as representative of Him unless they were "clothed with power from on high". It is the idea of elevation.

L.H.R. Could we have a word as to being made to sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus?

J.T. It would show the dignity that belongs to us; sitting down is dignity and greatness. They are great persons. The assembly is the greatest family in the heavens and on the earth, except for divine Persons; the assembly is the greatest of all, and the members are made to sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ.

F.W.K. Would Exodus 24 suggest the thought. "They saw the God of Israel ... and ate and drank". It seems to be based upon the volume of the blood suggested in that chapter.

J.T. I would like you to read it. It is a great matter to have these scriptures read so that we can get the full force of them.

F.W.K. I am referring to Exodus 24:9, "And Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy

of the elders of Israel went up; and they saw the God of Israel; and there was under his feet as it were work of transparent sapphire, and as it were the form of heaven for clearness. And on the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: they saw God, and ate and drank".

J.T. That is to say their dignity is implied, for they saw God, and ate and drank. Well now that raises another point, that John 1 says: "No one has seen God at any time". So we have to make enquiry about that in time. We cannot do it now, but it is a fact that "no one has seen God at any time; the only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him". That is to say, the declaration is by the Son. But then the seeing of God is denied according to the first chapter of John, and we have, therefore, to understand how we can see Him. It is also spoken of in Matthew 5 and now in Exodus, so that it is a question of understanding as to how we can see God. It is a marvellous thing that it can be said, and then that the Spirit is given to us, as well as that. The Spirit is given to us; it is a gift given to us.

A.M. How does the thought of the "greatness of his [God's] power towards us who believe", as referred to in this chapter, link up with the power of the Spirit?

J.T. The greatness of God's power is in the Holy Spirit, but then all these things are mysterious, because the Holy Spirit is God Himself, only the mind of God is seen in the working out of things in the three Persons. We cannot explain the three Persons; why there should be three Persons -- we cannot explain it, it is all mystery, but still we are in the realm of mystery, and we ourselves have the Spirit of God in us. Wonderful fact! and therefore we know all things, as John says. We can know all things in that sense. In fact John's first epistle

speaks of that, "Ye have the unction from the holy one, and ye know all things".

A.M. I was thinking too of the reference to faith -- "towards us who believe".

J.T. Well, we are in the faith period, but the faith period is the Spirit's period. When we come into the sight period, it will be the millennial period. The faith period is the period of the Spirit of God, in which the Spirit of God has the greatest room and liberty amongst His people.

A.J.G. Does not the Spirit always link His power with faith on our part?

J.T. I think so, that is true.

A.J.G. If there is not faith with us the Spirit is greatly hampered, is He not?

J.T. Quite so, and the saints in the present dispensation should have the Spirit. If they have not got It they should ask for It, and the Father will give It to them.

A.J.G. As regards "seeing God" -- does that not require the mediatorship of Christ?

J.T. Just so. Besides, the word 'seeing' might refer to certain features of God, whatever they might be.

E.P. Would Hebrews 11:1, apply with regard to God being seen? "Now faith is the substantiating of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen".

J.T. Well, the things that are seen are temporal, but things that are not seen are eternal, and these are the things that belong to christianity, and that is what we are dealing with, in this wonderful chapter of Ephesians.

E.P. I was thinking that faith has come, and the present time has been referred to as a 'faith dispensation'; faith would help us to move into all these matters.

J.T. Quite so. The Spirit enables us to move in. We arrive at the understanding of the revelation of God in the power of the Spirit. So, in that sense, we see what is unseen.

Rem. We see God in His beloved Son.

J.T. That is true, but the beloved Son is God. "He is the true God and eternal life". He is the true God Himself, so it is all mysterious, only that we are within the realm of it, because we have the Spirit.

Rem. The Spirit operates in the region of faith, hence the importance of believing and the maintenance of faith, so that the Spirit may operate freely.

J.T. Quite so. So that the recovery, as we have already said today, is to the full thought of christianity, and I think it should be kept in mind that Mr. Darby and those who walked with him one hundred and twenty years ago were used for the recovery of the full thought of christianity: not simply what they had at Pentecost, but Paul's ministry as well. Thank God it has continued, and it is being kept continued because the brethren keep on with these meetings, where we get the truth developed and time to develop it, especially in three days meetings.

E.C.M. Would the "things ... which God has prepared for them that love him" be connected with the spiritual blessings here? They are said to be revealed by the Spirit, for "the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God".

J.T. Quite so, "The Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God". That is what we are dealing with. This epistle contemplates that -- the full thought of God in christianity.

Ques. Is active faith needed right through the service of God?

J.T. Quite so. The systems have not got it; that is really the truth. They have not got the service of God, because they have not developed faith; they

have returned to the idea of sight, and systematic things according to man's ways; such as Presbyterianism and Baptists and so forth. They have given up the idea of faith, and they have given up the idea of the Spirit of God. It is a terrible thing to think of, but it is really the truth, and it is making way for the terrible apostasy that is coming in, which the apostle speaks of in the epistle to the Thessalonians.

Ques. Have you got the idea in Caleb? It says in Numbers 13:30. "And Caleb stilled the people before Moses, and said, Let us go up boldly and possess it, for we are well able to do it. But the men that went up with him said, We are not able to go up against the people, for they are stronger than we". Do you think it gives the difference between faith and faithless persons in regard to the inheritance?

J.T. Quite so, I should not like to direct our attention to ourselves, but in truth that is what is implied in the recovery; that we have come back to the thought of faith and the Spirit of God. It is a wonderful thing that it is so, and I believe the Lord is going to keep it until a certain time and then He will have recourse to sight; in the millennial day, it will be a question of what is seen. Thomas was like that; he says he would not believe unless he put his finger into the mark of the nails. He represents a Jew at that time, but we have faith at the present time, and therefore we come to the full thought of christianity.

A.H. So that in "our struggle" which is referred to in chapter 6, the shield of faith has a very large place.

J.T. That is just what we are talking about; faith is the great feature of the epistle to the Ephesians. The means of the full thought of God being recovered is in the epistle to the Ephesians.

A.H. And is all the armour there to maintain us in this elevated position?

J.T. Just so: "Put on the panoply of God" is the full thought. It is to protect us in faith.

G.W.B. Does the assembly at the end of our chapter in Ephesians fill out the type of Adam's helpmate in Genesis 2?

J.T. Quite so. So that we have to come to this, that we are in the time of the Spirit, and the time of the fulness of recovery of what is of the Spirit. It is a question of what God has done for us to bring that about, and what He is doing for us now is to help us to keep it, and to continue in it. Later we come to the millennial period, but at the present time we are continuing in the full thought of God in the assembly; and the Spirit of God is helping us to do it, and I believe He is using these meetings, of which we are having so many recently, to this end. He is helping us on that one point, that great point, so that there is a continuance of the dispensation which God has inaugurated through the apostles at the beginning.

H.W. Is this the antitype of the last verse of Deuteronomy 29"The hidden things belong to Jehovah our God; but the revealed ones are ours and our children's for ever". Is that the thought of continuity here?

J.T. Just so. Of course we are dealing with the New Testament, which refers to the gift of the Spirit, which we have as believers, and not with the Old Testament. We believers have the Spirit, but if we have not we should ask God for It.

A.J.G. And we really have the hidden things, have we not? Things that were hidden from before the ages are now made known.

J.T. Just so.

J.S.E. If one can make a remark, it is that your frequent and emphatic references to the Spirit, in this visit, ought really to search all our hearts as to

whether we are consciously getting back, by the help of the Spirit, to God's richest and original thoughts.

J.T. Just so; and if we have got back to it to stay in it.

J.S.E. Yes, I feel this allusion to the last section of this chapter as taking us back to Genesis 2, links us on with a scene where sin has never intruded.

J.T. Just so.

Ques. Do you get the "staying and continuing" suggested in Acts 1? And are we to be there too? "And when they were come into the city, they went up to the upper chamber, where were staying ..."

J.T. Very good; and there were certain women, too, staying there.

E.T.S. Would all that we have been enjoying this morning be in order to make us come into the full knowledge of Him in verse 17, so that the Father may have a fuller return from us? Some of us, if I may speak for others, feel that there is perhaps a paucity in connection with the answer to the Father's love, and I wondered if we prayed that prayer which is in verse 17, that we might come into the full knowledge of Him, there might be a fuller and more definite response to the Father.

J.T. Yes, so that if the recovery has taken place, and it has, in certain men we have alluded to whom God used to do it, the Spirit of God remains here. They have gone to be with the Lord, but the Spirit remains here. He is here all the time, and it is in His power that we -- can realise -- or hope to realise -- what we are speaking of.

A.J.G. So there is no lapse in the continued work of recovery; the Spirit is guiding all the time into all the truth.

J.T. The fact is, I think, that there has been a measure of recovery even since they were taken. For the last fifty years, I would say, there has been steady indication of recovery, and a desire in the

service of God to go on in it, because the service of God has attained a peculiar phase in the past thirty or forty years. I am speaking subject to correction by the brethren, but it is my judgment that this is what has happened, and the thing is now, at meetings like this, to revive ourselves, and to revive each other by being reminded of what has happened. Then there is what is in the Scriptures themselves, that "every scripture is divinely inspired, and profitable for teaching, for conviction, for correction, for instruction in righteousness; that the man of God may be complete, fully fitted to every good work". That is the position.

WORTHING -- READING (2)

2 Corinthians 12:1 - 21

J.T. Someone here was asking a question as we left off this morning.

P.A.W. We were speaking of the high level of things this morning, and also the place that the Spirit has in relation to the service of God. I wondered if you could help us as to the Spirit leading us on into these great high levels. We have in Ephesians 2:18 "For through him we have both access by one Spirit to the Father".

J.T. It is clear enough that the access is through the exercise of the Spirit's power. "Through him we have both access by one Spirit to the Father". That is through Christ, so that it is a question of mediatorial service, which is a very important matter, and involves that One of the divine Persons takes a lower place to be mediator -- to mediate a position or a circumstance. There are clearly religious systems around us that have certain principles to go by that are simply human -- at least in a great measure, but those who are walking in the truth recognise that the means of worship is by the Spirit -- through the mediatorial service of Christ.

P.A.W. I think some of us would like help on the position the Spirit has as Mediator.

J.T. There are two ideas. First it is "through him" -- that is Christ; He is the main thought in the mediatorship, but then the Spirit also is a Mediator. Of course it is a question of the power of the Spirit, but the Lord Jesus is the actual Mediator in everything. The main idea of mediatorship in divine things is in Christ Himself but then the Spirit has a part in the mediatorship also. There are three Persons in the Deity, and of course the Three act in whatever it may be and the Spirit in this case acts in our souls. It is not external; it is in our souls.

P.A.W. I think the thought of the Spirit being in our souls is helpful.

J.T. Just so. Now if you take the Church of England, of course, they have got methods or ways that are merely human, and so have the Presbyterians, and so also all of them, whereas those who are walking in the truth recognise the Spirit, and they recognise that Christ is the main thought of Mediator of everything, and that the Spirit also has a mediatorial service, but that is inside of us.

Now what is before us is 2 Corinthians 12 where we get, "Well, it is not of profit to me to boast, for I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. I know a man in Christ, fourteen years ago, (whether in the body I know not, or out of the body I know not, God knows; ) such a one caught up to the third heaven. And I know such a man (whether in the body or out of the body I know not, God knows)"; it is remarkable this repetition in the parenthesis, and then he says: "that he was caught up into paradise". "He was caught up into paradise". That is the idea that is before us, for it is a question of elevation, and what this may mean in Paul's case. It is really physical catching up. He did not know whether he was in the body or out of the body, which is a remarkable thing. Apparently he was -- like Peter -- in a state of ecstasy, and therefore it is a question of our being able to discern what is meant in this elevation; how it happened to him. He intimates that it is extraordinary because apparently it only happened to him once, and that was fourteen years before, which is a very remarkable thing.

F.B. Does it suggest, so to speak, a complete change of place?

J.T. The apostle has to acknowledge that he did not know himself, whether he was in the body or out of the body. It is for us to discern now, if we can

do it, what the condition can be -- in the body or out of it. Yet Paul is conscious, for he is able to say what happened. What did you mean by change of place?

F.B. It says he was caught up into paradise, I thought that would indicate an entirely different position to being on earth, and therefore he would speak of it as a complete change from what he was generally used to.

J.T. Yes, but then the question is, how could he say that he knew about it. "I know", he says, "a man". It is a sort of abstract statement, and then he repeats it in verse 3: "And I know such a man, (whether in the body or out of the body I know not, God knows; ) that he was caught up into paradise". He changes the word from "third heaven" to "paradise", so that I confess that I myself feel that I do not know just what to say about it, because it is extraordinary. It is an extraordinary circumstance, and yet it is clear that it is an opportunity for the brethren -- a good many of us here now -- just to enquire what it means, and whether there is any such experience in the service of God that we know of. I confess I do not know of it, nor do I think that Paul knew it fully; he says, "I know not, God knows", and we can take refuge in that -- that God knows everything.

Ques. Do you think it would be divine compensation for all the sorrows that he speaks of in the previous chapter? "Thrice have I been scourged, once I have been stoned" and so on to the end of the chapter, "and through a window in a basket I was let down by the wall, and escaped his hands".

J.T. I suppose you might read that into it. Whether he really means that I do not know, but I think he means that we have come into what is wonderful in the sense of spiritual understanding -- spiritual knowledge, and it is for us to seek to be in

it and join together in it, and know the service of God as in it.

Rem. I was wondering whether he was worthy of it, divine communications being given to those who are near enough and worthy to receive them.

J.T. Well, possibly that might be said.

Ques. What have you in mind about his naming the third heaven and paradise?

J.T. That in itself is really a wonderful thing. It is an inscrutable thing to my mind, and I think we should all seek to come into inscrutability, because we belong to the realm of inscrutability as in christianity.

Ques. Does this experience come with the visions and revelations that he refers to earlier?

J.T. It does, that is what he is speaking about. We might as well just look at the wording. He says: "Well, it is not of profit to me to boast, for I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord". That is to say it was the Lord's doing -- the Lord was revealing Himself in certain connections and circumstances, and then he says, "I know a man" -- meaning that he had extraordinary relations with God and with the Lord, and with the Spirit. Perhaps, as suggested, there was no man in the whole realm of creation like Paul -- so much distinctiveness -- he was honoured so much in the truth. So that it is just as well to think that there was such a man, but at the same time there is something for us to see, in the sense of spirituality, that we have not reached, and the question is whether we can reach it, because it is a time of learning, and if God is graciously giving us opportunity to learn we must take advantage of it, and seek that we can learn, because the Spirit of God is within us. He is actually here as sent from heaven; that has been repeated over and over again, and I do not know of anything more important in the matter that we are dealing

with, than that the Spirit of God has been sent from heaven. It does not say He has come -- He has been sent from heaven. He is under orders, as it were, and yet He is a divine Person, showing how the divine Persons can interchange positions. We cannot say what was before the economy in which we are; we just do not know, but They were there and there were Three, and They were all equal, but now They have come into an economy, two of Them taking less place than one of Them; that is to say, the Father. The Lord Jesus and the Spirit have taken a lower place relatively than the Father. So that I confess all this is inscrutable, and we might as well accept the idea of inscrutability and yet, at the same time, seek whether we can attain to anything of it.

Ques. Would you say why the apostle speaks of himself as "a man in Christ"?

J.T. It is to bring out the idea of manhood, but it is manhood in Christ. There is a passage elsewhere -- "the mediator of God and men one, the man Christ Jesus". That is the same allusion; He is the Mediator. Of course, the Spirit is too, according to what we are saying here, for the Spirit also can be a Mediator, but the Father is supreme; it is with Him the mediatorship is. That is to say the Mediator is in relation to the Father; He mediates things in relation to the Father.

Ques. As regards the matter of elevation, is it right to say that the third heaven is the highest altitude to which the creature can go?

J.T. It looks like that. But the Lord is gone beyond all the heavens, so that we have to recognise a non-created (if I may use that expression) condition. The Lord can go beyond all that, because He is a divine Person. We cannot do it, for we are just creatures, and even Paul was just that. It is well

however to accept that there is such a condition, because it reminds us what we are brought into.

Ques. Is Paul bringing this forward as showing what gave colour and character to his ministry? He is not stressing his apostleship, but this experience of the man in Christ.

J.T. Quite so, but he was an apostle, as he says. He is abstract here because he, as it were, separates himself from himself, from his individuality. He says, "I know a man in Christ" and then, "I know such a man". That is a thorough idea, so that it is intended to remind us all of the greatness of his calling, and the ministry that he had. But the object now would be for us to see whether we can get into anything like that, because we have been converted and have the Spirit.

G.W.B. Would there be any connection between this and the promise to the overcomer at Ephesus? He would be given to eat of the tree of life which is in the paradise of God.

J.T. Just so. The allusion clearly is to the same thing. The word 'paradise' is the same word here. But it says he will be given to eat of the tree of life, and the tree of life is Christ Himself; He is the tree of life.

A.J.G. Christ in His own sphere, the sphere of the Father's pleasure; would that be the thought of paradise?

J.T. Well, I do not know. We have the word 'paradise', of course, and there is what was alluded to a moment ago, an ecstasy. It is open to us, but it is a question whether christians at the present time, including ourselves here today, know anything of this ecstasy, and whether we know anything of these thoughts that we are now seeking to speak of, whether we know anything about being "caught up". That is the word used, "caught up into paradise" -- meaning that he is brought actually into it. But

before that it was "as far as", "I know a man in Christ, fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I know not, or out of the body I know not, God knows; ) such a one caught up to the third heaven". There is an expression "the third heaven". We can speak of the first one, for we see it, it is visible; but the third, what do we see? I mean to say we are dealing with wonderful things, and inscrutable things, but at the same time it is surely intended that we might have some part in them, and become more spiritual than we are.

J.P. In chapter 5 we read that "if any one be in Christ, there is a new creation". Would the "man in Christ" be a development of that idea?

J.T. Quite so; "If any one be in Christ", he says, "there is a new creation" -- not 'he is new creation', but there is such a thing, and he has part in it.

A.M. In the same chapter (chapter 5 of this book) Paul says, "For whether we are beside ourselves, it is to God". Is that not a reference to ecstasy, and he says 'we' there as if he would look for others to become in that state?

J.T. Quite so. It refers to Paul and those with him. If they were beside themselves, it was to God. It is a phrase that implies he is not in his ordinary reckonings; he cannot say whether he is in the body or out of it. He is simply out of his ordinary reckonings, but then the question is whether we today can say anything, whether we have any knowledge or experience such as that, otherwise there would be really no advantage in the scripture being written at all. There is surely something in it for us, as to this matter of being beside ourselves. If I am beside myself it is to God -- he would be taken up with God so much, that he would be in an ecstasy.

A.J.G. And what you are pressing is that the power for this being caught up is in the Spirit.

J.T. Just so, and whether we have any experience of the kind, or whether we just go along as if things are all right with us spiritually, and yet really it is not, because this is something that is possible to us; it is within our reach.

Ques. Is it your thought, then, that in the economy in which we are, if this was possible to one man it is possible to another?

J.T. That is right. The 'we' is just the 'we' of christianity. That is, he is saying something that is obviously true.

A.B. Would there be any similarity in regard of the Spirit of the Lord catching away Philip at the end of Acts 8? You were referring to the power of the Spirit of God, and this thought of being caught up, or caught away.

J.T. That is another instance of what we are speaking about. The Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip; it was the Spirit's action, and Philip was found somewhere else. There were such things happening in the early days of christianity. We know that well because of the facts mentioned, but then the question is whether there is not something of the kind that we may have part in.

A.J.G. In Revelation 4 John says he heard a voice saying: "Come up here", and he says, "Immediately I became in the Spirit". Is that an example of availing oneself of the Spirit's power?

J.T. Just so; I would say that. That is a point that ought to help us, "I became in the Spirit". It is a question of how we can become things; how we can change. There is a certain change that we come into, but then how can we come into it? It enters much into the first day of the week -- the Lord's day and with it the Lord's supper, because these changes are possible. I think what we are dealing with is something that is hardly expressible in words; it is something to be understood in the

soul. You would soon be moved by it if you experienced it and acted in it. It would soon become known to the brethren; we should be known to each other as spiritual, because the point is now spirituality, and how we acquire it and how we may ascend into heaven in a moral sense at the present time, as we shall, in a physical sense, presently. But this really is a physical matter that Paul is alluding to -- he has been caught up himself and he could not tell whether he was in the body or out of it, and therefore it is an unknown matter -- only God knows about it. But yet we are here, and there is opportunity for us to learn something of this in our own experience, but whether we are doing it is a question.

Ques. Does the first reference to Paul being caught up to the third heaven present, if I understand it rightly, that there were limitations to his going higher? But, in the second reference, that you are bringing before us, there appears to be no limitation in the power of the Spirit. Is that so?

J.T. There are limitations to us -- to creatures, but Paul refers to something that he had experienced, namely, that he had been caught up to the third heaven. Then he uses another word, and that word is paradise, which is the thought of immense enjoyment.

Rem. That is the force, perhaps, of the word into paradise.

J.T. That is the force of it, but in the first sentence he says, "Such a one caught up to". There is a change of word in the original there.

Rem. I was only thinking, in asking that question, as to Christ having ascended above all heavens.

J.T. That does not mean that we can go up beyond all heavens. It is a divine Person of whom that is said.

Rem. Yes, therefore I was wondering whether in the case of Paul he writes in this way as showing

limitations, but he says, "into paradise" -- he is inside, where he heard these unspeakable things.

J.T. He is saying it because it is a very important matter, because he is implying that he was distinguished in this way, in that he was caught up. It is just something that he was entitled to do and to write about, so that we might get into it in some sense. I say 'in some sense'; I do not know what the sense is, but some sense.

W.S.S. Do you connect this passage with the rapture, where the same words are used -- caught up?

J.T. That is the word that is used for rapture, really. That will take place when the Lord Himself comes down from heaven, but then the change has to come about, and the Spirit of God will bring about that change. At the rapture, we shall be changed, but this does not allude to that. This alludes to what is possible, in some sense, with us at the present time, before actually we are changed in body.

Ques. With regard to the thought of "into paradise", there is a reference in John 1:18, which speaks about Him who is in the bosom of the Father. Would you tell us a little about that, please?

J.T. I do not know; "in the bosom of the Father" means infinite affection between the Father and Son -- infinite. Much could be said about the word in, but I do not know that we can say anything to help us here. The bosom of the Father refers to the infinite relations of affection between the Father and the Son, "The Father loves the Son", it says, "and has given all things to be in his hand".

Ques. In referring to inscrutability and our being able, in some measure perhaps, to touch it, does that link with what Paul says that he "heard unspeakable things said which it is not allowed to man to utter"?

J.T. That is what he says here.

Ques. Would that touch on what is inscrutable?

J.T. "I ... heard unspeakable things said which it is not allowed to man to utter". That is just what we are dealing with, and yet we are to enquire amongst ourselves, and each for himself, as to whether he understands anything of it, because it is within our range, clearly.

F.B. I would like to ask if this of which you have been speaking is confined to the Lord's day morning meeting?

J.T. I speak of the Lord's day morning meeting because it is alluded to in the first epistle, chapter 11. He says in verse 17, "In prescribing to you on this which I now enter on, I do not praise, namely, that ye come together, not for the better, but for the worse. For first, when ye come together in assembly, I hear there exist divisions among you". That is to say, he deals there with the idea of the divine service, and that the Lord's supper is the beginning of it; but we are now dealing with the second epistle, and it is a question whether we know anything of what we are speaking of. "I know a man in Christ", he says, "fourteen years ago, (whether in the body I know not, or out of the body I know not, God knows; ) such a one caught up to the third heaven". That is a remarkable thing, and then he goes on to say, "And I know such a man, (whether in the body or out of the body I know not, God knows; ) that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable things said which it is not allowed to man to utter". Well, now we are dealing with what is unspeakable, but at the same time there is something that we can come into; it is surely written for that purpose.

A.J.G. Does the fact that he speaks of hearing unspeakable things said indicate that he was allowed to hear the communion between the Father and the Son? Would it be divine Persons speaking?

J.T. Well, very likely. We had something recently as to what we come into. The first was in Acts 1, and I might just read it so as to give a clue to what we are talking about, "Having said these things he was taken up, they beholding him, and a cloud received him out of their sight" (verse 9). That is just an inscrutable thing, and yet it is remarkable that it is given to us to know something of it, and the question is, therefore, what we do know. Then it is said that God made the worlds by the Lord Jesus. What worlds are they and where are they? We do not know how many there are, but then these things are written for our learning, and it is undoubtedly to bring about a state of spirituality in us, so as to enable us to enter into things, because presently we shall be caught up to heaven and join the Lord with one another in the air. We are coming to this almost at any moment, and the present time is a time of learning, so that we might be fit for all these things that are written for us, and that we might know something about them.

P.L. So that all this is to promote a spiritual state suited to eternity.

J.T. That is what I thought, because eternity is before us. We are going into it, and the dead in Christ are to rise first, and that is yet another thing we have to think of. Those that have died in Christ are to rise first, and those of us that remain are to be changed and caught up to meet the Lord in the air and so shall we be for ever with the Lord, "With the Lord" -- that is an eternal condition.

G.H.M. Do we get some help from the word in Ezekiel 8, where it says, "The Spirit lifted me up between the earth and the heavens, and brought me in the visions of God to Jerusalem ... . And behold, the glory of the God of Israel was there, according to the appearance that I saw in the valley".

J.T. That fits in with what we are talking about, for it is a question of what Ezekiel and the prophets came into. If the prophets had something that we have not got, and if Paul had something that we have not got, well now, why cannot we have it? That is the whole question this afternoon, as to whether it is possible for us to become more spiritual, and therefore to escape worldliness, and earthly-mindedness that is so apt to lay hold of us. It is not actual wickedness, but earthly-mindedness which is unspiritual. We do not know anything about these things, but is it not possible that we should know them? That is the whole question.

Ques. And would you say that throughout those fourteen years, through all kinds of sufferings, he had retained the impression as fresh as it was at the beginning in spirituality?

J.T. I would say that. He remembered fourteen years ago. He might put it into days, or into minutes, so to speak, but he knew it, he remembered it, and he mentioned it clearly so that they might understand that God had honoured him. He was to be honoured too, and the Corinthians were not honouring him at times; they did not honour Paul at times at Corinth. It very often happens that even ministers in our own times are not properly gauged as to their importance, and what value they are in the assembly. So that we should know each other, and know how to regard each other. Paul was not properly regarded at certain times, we can see that, and so he gives a long list of things that he endured, in chapter 11. He says in verse 32 of that chapter, "In Damascus the ethnarch of Aretas the king kept the city of the Damascenes shut up, wishing to take me; and through a window in a basket I was let down by the wall, and escaped his hands". That is to bring out the sufferings of Paul. Of course, we have the sufferings of Christ; Peter speaks

of the sufferings of Christ, but then we have the sufferings of Paul, for he followed Christ. That is the great thing for us to see, that he was a true follower of Christ, and he wished that we should be followers of him as he was of Christ.

Ques. Paul speaks of the matter of fasting. Would that have a bearing on this matter you are referring to?

J.T. There is a strong bearing on it, because the Lord says, "This kind does not go out but by prayer and fasting". Some kind of demon possession was referred to, but it could only be cast out by prayer and fasting. The early christians clearly knew about it and practised it. Paul did, anyway. So that "prayer and fasting" is a thing to be thought of, and how much we can acquire by it.

Ques. Why did Paul wait fourteen years before he spoke of this?

J.T. That is a good question. But why did he? He does not tell us. He just records it so that the brethren might think rightly of him, and how God had honoured him and what ability he had.

A.H. You referred to chapter 11, but Paul says there: "I do not lie", and now in this chapter he says: "I will say the truth". Why does he speak like that?

J.T. He wants to impress upon the Corinthians that he did not lie; he was truthful. Sometimes we are quite untruthful, in spirit, even if not actually or openly so. But Paul was not that; he was truthful. It is remarkable that he deigns to tell the Corinthians that he was that, and that he did not die.

W.S.S. I should like to ask whether you think that the Lord's day morning, after the Supper, would present the greatest opportunity to us to know something of this kind of thing?

J.T. I would think that is the truth. It is the Lord's supper, but the Lord deigns to allow ourselves

to have part in it, of course; it is intended for us, but the Spirit has part in it. The Spirit takes part in it and helps us to understand and to recall the Lord Himself, as it says in the note: 'For the calling of me to mind'. The Lord's supper is for a calling of Christ to mind, that we may take on of His character, and become like Him.

W.S.S. I was thinking how we might be carried by the Spirit at such a time into these spiritual realms.

J.T. I would say that fully. Some have indicated that we should not speak to the Spirit at all, but that is not true. We can speak to the Spirit; Peter did, calling Him Lord.

Ques. Have we not the word 'rapture' used in the typical language of the Song of Songs: "In his shadow have I rapture and sit down"? Does that not suggest an experience of the bride?

J.T. The word 'rapture' is great or intense enjoyment; it is the idea of pleasure.

J.S.E. May I ask if you think that the allusion to the Spirit in His authority in chapter 3 is set out to help us to see where the power is, and, in this chapter we are reading from, is Paul giving an illustration in himself as to the result of this?

J.T. I would say so. But, of course, we are dealing now with elevation, and it seems to be seen here really in a physical sense, because Paul says, "I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. I know a man in Christ fourteen years ago, (whether in the body I know not, or out of the body I know not, God knows; ) such a one caught up to the third heaven". That is to say, it was an actual fact that he was caught up -- it was a physical matter. Then, as we were saying, where the worlds are is all akin to this. We cannot say how many there were, but whatever there were they were all made by Christ, for God made the worlds by Christ. It is a marvellous

thing that we know something about that, and we ought to enter into it more, that there is something of that kind for us, "By whom also he made the worlds".

Ques. Would you say something, please, about the thorn for the flesh in this regard?

J.T. That is just to check us if we are carried away by any success in service, because we are apt to think too much of ourselves and so we get a thorn for the flesh to humble us, as he says further, "If I shall desire to boast, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth; but I forbear, lest any one should think as to me above what he sees me to be, or whatever he may hear of me. And that I might not be exalted by the exceeding greatness of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn for the flesh", meaning that it was something to check the exertions of the flesh; it was to check that. "A thorn for the flesh, a messenger of Satan" -- a remarkable thing -- "that he might buffet me, that I might not be exalted". And so he says, "For this I thrice besought the Lord that it might depart from me. And he said to me" -- the Lord said to Paul -- "My grace suffices thee"; and then the Lord says further, "for my power is perfected in weakness". And then Paul says, "Most gladly therefore will I rather boast in my weaknesses, that the power of the Christ may dwell upon me. Wherefore I take pleasure in weaknesses, in insults, in necessities, in persecutions, in straits, for Christ, for when I am weak, then I am powerful" (verses 9, 10). All this shows how a servant is to keep himself under -- keep his body under, so that he may not be carried away by his own importance, which is very apt to take hold of any of us.

F.W.K. Is there a sharp distinction drawn in verse 5? He speaks of "such a one", which was "a man in Christ", and then he says, "But of myself I will not boast"?

J.T. 'Myself' is what he was ordinarily down here. Suppose a man had a wife and children; it is just what he might be ordinarily down here, that is himself. But "a man in Christ" is another idea altogether outside of all that. That is a heavenly thought that we are to enter into while we are down here.

Ques. And was the messenger of Satan a divine preservative for the impressions that were lodged in the vessel?

J.T. I would think so; it was to save him. Such a vessel should be saved and the Lord knew that. We learn from the book of Acts how he failed several times; well, the Lord saw that, but He saved His servant, and He knows all about every one of us, and therefore we have to count on the Lord to help us, to save ourselves from the workings of the flesh, and the thorn for the flesh, whatever it may be, is useful for that.

Rem. In the first epistle Paul speaks of buffeting his own body, "But I buffet my body, and lead it captive".

J.T. Just so.

Ques. May I ask a question in relation to the service of God, as to whether in worshipping the Father you would confine yourself to the idea of spiritual and moral elevation, or whether it would be right to bring in the thought of being actually there soon?

J.T. I should think so; why should we not? The fourth chapter of first Thessalonians tells us "thus we shall be always with the Lord". Surely that is a great thought? It is a great and precious thought in the service of God that we have already in our minds, that in a moment we will be transported there, for we belong to the class of men that may be transported at any moment to heaven; that is

as changed. If we die, of course, our bodies go into the grave, but presently the dead in Christ shall rise first, and then those of us that are alive and remain will be caught up, but we have to be changed before we are caught up, and the Spirit does that, I think; the Spirit quickens us.