Pages 1 to 166, Second half of 'Putting on the New Man' and Other Ministry, 1937, (Volume 206), omitting one address included in New Series Volume 69.

THE WORD OF THE CROSS

1 Corinthians 1:18; Galatians 2:20; Romans 6:6; Ephesians 2:16; Revelation 11:8

J.T. Many other passages may come under review but the scriptures read cover the subject. The teaching of the word of the cross in 1 Corinthians 1 is to them that perish foolishness, not the cross in a literal sense which is used in certain religious circles, but the word of it, meaning that which God has furnished to open up the truth or bearing of it to us, what it means -- what it discloses, namely, that our old man has been crucified with Christ; the Lord may help us to understand what that is. Romans helps us as to the word of righteousness, also it has to do with the word of the cross, it unfolds the significance of the crucifixion of our old man. The Galatians were furnished with part of the teaching of the word of the cross, in that the one who brought it to them -- Paul -- speaks there of his own view of the matter, how it affected him. It is important in service to see how the truth affects the one who presents it. Ephesians furnishes the word of the cross in an extensive sense, and shows how both Jew and gentile are reconciled in one body -- it is collective. Revelation gives us a further word in regard to the two witnesses; it is a matter of witness, we are made a spectacle and may expect it where our Lord was crucified. However small a town or city may be, it takes on that character; it is where we are, where we break bread and carry out the truth collectively; it is where our Lord was crucified, the kind of place, the external surroundings of the crucifixion. Every

feature of the truth was laid hold of by Paul, not only in his knowledge, but in his experience; he would have us know something of his knowledge, but particularly of the word of the cross, the experience of it. The experience of the thing would enable us to present it in power; nothing affects us as the cross does, the carrying of it out.

H.W. It is important for this to enter into our souls.

J.T. Yes, it is a root matter. The word of the cross deals with the roots of evil, it deals with our pride and our aspirations and with the meanness of our old man. How mean we are in thoughts as we give way to our old man! We know what our old man is capable of, and as we judge him the word of the cross becomes valuable. It shows how we get rid of him in the faith of our souls and the word makes the thing intelligible to us.

L.M. "They that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts" (Galatians 5:24).

J.T. That is a good scripture. Galatians helps us more than any other scripture in regard to the word of the cross. Paul tells us of his own view of it and of certain persons who belong to the Christ, they that are Christ's. Every christian is His in a sense, His by purchase, but are we all His in a characteristic way? They that are Christ's have crucified the flesh, they have done it themselves, with its affections and lusts. It would mean they thoroughly judged these things. Have we crucified the flesh and thoroughly judged it? The result is complete deliverance, first from our old man and then in detail from the flesh, which is the idea of the concentrated power of evil. The flesh is really dealt with more effectively in circumcision: "They that are of the Christ have crucified the flesh with the passions and the lusts". We arrive first at the judgment of the thing in a general way -- our old man -- then our experience comes

in and we no longer live, Christ has displaced self. Paul had reached that in his experience, and making it an individual matter says, "I am crucified with Christ, and no longer live, I, but Christ lives in me". What he was is there; by faith one no longer lives but Christ is one's life instead of oneself.

Ques. Why do you give the Corinthian side first?

J.T. Because we get there the word of the cross; without the word the thing is not of much value, the word of a thing makes it intelligible to you. We get the essence of a thing first, then the word is what opens it up to your mind, the teaching of it. The word searches you out inwardly, and brings it to bear on you in the full scope of it in all the roots of your being. We get the bearing of it on oneself, what it involves, what it is to me; first we get our old man, then oneself, then the affections and lusts of the flesh. We are slow to lay hold of the utter meanness of our old man, the one that marked us.

Ques. Why does the apostle bring in the glad tidings here?

J.T. If you seek in ministry or teaching to make an impression by wisdom of words, it would defeat its own object, it would defeat the truth of the cross, it would becloud it, but the word of the cross is different, it is God's way of stressing the truth of it, not in wisdom of words. Paul is alluding to the great skill of the Greeks, their eloquence in the use of words; it is thought much of today but it is of no value in the things of God; there it is by demonstration of the Spirit and of power -- it must be by the Spirit.

B. What is the idea of perishing -- "to them that perish"?

J.T. It is a strong word, there are those that perish, they are characteristic persons -- a class of that kind who look upon the cross as foolishness. There are those who are lost too; their eyes are

blinded by the god of this world. Some are spoken of as those that perish and others those that are lost, but to us who are saved the cross is God's power. Those who are saved are a class too but to those saved the cross is not foolishness, it is the power of God.

Ques. Would you distinguish between perishing and lost?

J.T. There is not much distinction in the result. We get the thought of perishing in John's gospel. "God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whosoever believes on him may not perish" (John 3:16). The allusion is to what happened in the wilderness to Israel: through their self-will their, carcases fell in the wilderness. Instead of going through in life one perishes; it is a very humiliating thought. The thought of carcases as attached to men is very humiliating; their carcases fell -- they were graves of lust. 'Lost' carries with it a state, what we were to God -- lost to Him. God classifies certain ones thus -- "Our gospel ... is hid to them that are lost". They are exposed to the blinding influence of the devil; they are blinded by him; he has got them.

H.W. We read of enemies of the cross of Christ in Philippians.

J.T. Yes, the cross is a scandal. Many nominal christians are enemies of the cross of Christ.

H. Would perishing apply to believers?

J.T. No, we are speaking of classes of persons; we are speaking in a characteristic way.

H. I was thinking of the carcases that fell in the wilderness.

J.T. They are not types of christians characteristically. We are speaking here of characteristic persons. It is another matter, it is a solemn thing, if a christian does not care for the teaching of the cross, if it cuts too much on his natural tendency, and it is well to remember that he is bordering on that class.

It is a solemn thing if he does not like the preaching and word of the cross. Judas was like that; he was a son of perdition and he died in a gruesome sort of way; it was a humiliating thing. How solemn it is for a christian to shrink from the word of the cross, to say, in his attitude, that it is too exacting! It may be the word of the cross cuts at the very root of things. How solemn it is if a christian is in that attitude of mind to shrink from it! How near he is to that class who perish!

C. Acceptance of the word of the cross in oneself would bring one into accord with the death of Christ.

J.T. Yes, that kind of death, the death of the cross.

C. Is there not a danger with us of tolerating, of not accepting it fully?

J.T. Yes. To die with Christ is one thing but to be crucified with Christ is another. The cross was the scandal of that day. The Corinthians were enjoined not to fall in the wilderness; let us accept the full weight of the word of the cross. It is no use if we are not taking in the word of the cross: we should feel the solemnity of the fact that we are near those who regard it as foolishness. The Corinthians did not behave themselves in relation to the Lord's supper. Let there be the acceptance of the word of the cross in its full bearing, the kind of death by which He died. There is a danger of toleration and of not accepting the word fully. Crucified with Christ is the acceptance of the scandal of that death; death by the sword would have been honourable but it was the death of the cross that was a scandal.

Romans 6 deals with this matter as regards our old man; baptism is the sign which leads up to it: "Knowing this, that our old man has been crucified with him, that the body of sin might be annulled, that we should no longer serve sin". Circumcision is the putting off of the body of the flesh, but here it is

the act of God in the crucifixion of Christ that is the point; it is what God has done; it has been done in order that the body of sin as bearing on the christian might be annulled as the truth is taken in and accepted.

H.W. Would circumcision be a deeper thing?

J.T. Yes. As to the flesh the body of sin would mean the aggregate of the working of it as it affects the christian; it is a little more external to ourselves. God has dealt with it judicially and the light of that enables us to escape its power. Here the word of the cross comes in on our old man, God has dealt with it in order that the believer might escape the power of it.

Rem. Knowing the word of the cross and inward reckoning and outward yielding are in this chapter.

J.T. Quite so, hence the importance of the word of the cross. Our old man has been crucified; it is not that I am crucified or they that are Christ's have been crucified, here it is what God has done. Knowing that God has done it must precede our experience of it. Crucifixion took place at Golgotha, the place of a skull; it was man's utter ignorance, his true state was exposed. The world knew nothing of this, none of the princes of this world knew, otherwise they would not have done it. They were exposed in spite of professed knowledge; there is nothing there but a skull; the root of the matter is dealt with. The power of sin is the force of will operating against God; God dealt with that in the cross and left nothing but a skull, and the word of the cross helps us to see that. God has dealt with things radically; crucified means that. The word they used before the crucifixion was, "Crucify him, crucify him"; that was the state of their mind, and the cross was the expression of that. They crucified and slew Him. That brought out where man was, and it takes the word of the cross to make this plain to us. Man

is devoid of intelligence according to God, in utter ignorance of God, but He turns that round in the sacrificial death of Christ so that He has dealt with man from that point of view.

A.M.H. Man has to be reduced to a skull in his own estimate?

J.T. Yes, the word of the cross helps us to see according to Romans 6 how God has dealt judicially with our old man so that the body of sin should be annulled that we should not any longer serve it, the aggregate of the operation of sin -- man's will -- against God. Our knowledge of that enables us to disallow the thing and we look at it with God. It is under reproach as Christ is under reproach, and we look at the operation of sin with scorn. God has dealt with it in that way.

C. The body of sin would be in its completeness?

J.T. Yes, it is the aggregate or the body of the thing; it operates as you go into the street. One man is affected one way and one another but the whole thing is destroyed. The word 'annul' means its power is gone in a certain setting and "the word of the cross" enables you to see it.

A.M.H. Is that the bearing of John 3?

J.T. Yes, what is so much needed is to get to the root of things. They that are the Christ's have crucified the flesh. In Romans it is the body that is spoken of; if Christ is in us the body is dead.

H.W. What is the thought of Christ being portrayed crucified among the Galatians?

J.T. It was so verified in the apostle; he was there the setting forth of the truth he was preaching. Christ was crucified among them, before their very eyes. How important to have the truth exemplified! It was exemplified in Paul. In Galatians we often get it cited and it underlies the whole point. I am crucified with Christ, not the flesh or our old man, but the person himself, he has undergone crucifixion.

It is very remarkable that we can say such a thing; "I am crucified", it was Paul's own judgment of himself. We cannot say much about that but Paul could say, "I am crucified with Christ". God had met his exercises in regard of himself. We say, 'No one can conceive how mean I am', but God has dealt with that so that we need not be bothered with it; I am done with myself in that way.

Ques. The offscouring of the world?

J.T. That is how Paul was regarded, and it was how Christ was regarded. Here in Galatians it is his own judgment before God of himself -- how offensive he was to God! He arrived at that judgment of himself. He comes to the sense of how abhorrent he is as a natural man before God, and God has met that. This could not be said in Old Testament times, Moses or David could not say it; it could not be said until Christ was crucified because the vicarious thought is in it. Christ had not died in Old Testament times, but if you bring in the vicarious side you must see that God has done it for you. "I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me". That is history, it goes back: He "loved me, and gave himself for me".

H.W. That is the only way Christ can live in the believer.

J.T. Yes, He cannot tolerate our old man.

C. Would the whole of verse 20 enter into the word of the cross?

J.T. It is beautiful to see who it is who "has loved me and given himself for me"; it brings out how the glory and beauty and attractiveness of Christ had place in Paul's heart. There can be no rival there; Christ must have all the place, He must have such a place that He fills all my intelligence and affections. I must give Him all the place.

Ques. It involves soul history?

J.T. Quite so. "By whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world" (chapter 6:14). That is his relation to the world and the world's relation to him; it is real deliverance. There is no real deliverance without the word of the cross; Paul glories in the cross. "Far be it from me to boast save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom the world is crucified to me, and I to the world". Christ in you is what is in mind to be reached with us -- in our minds and affections -- that He should have all the place.

The passage in Ephesians is to bring out unity that is pleasing to God. God is complacent with us, it is a collective thought, that He might reconcile both, Jew and gentile, in one body to God by the cross.

H. We are said to be reconciled to God by the death of His Son but here in Ephesians it is by the cross. Why?

J.T. Being reconciled to God by the death of His Son is Romans and refers to the person more, it is a general thought of reconciliation. It is not crucifixion there.

Rem. In Ephesians it is the removing barriers between Jew and gentile.

J.T. Yes, it is dealing with the root of national feeling, which is deep with us too. It is collective; both have been reconciled by the death of God's Son; that is what it cost to effect it, no less than that, but in Ephesians the roots of national feeling are dealt with at the cross so that there may be such unity among the brethren that God would be pleased with it. Here it brings out how God has effected unity in Jew and gentile among the saints through dealing with the evil of national feeling that gets such a place with us.

Rem. The superscription on the cross was in Hebrew, Greek and Latin.

J.T. Yes, those languages represented the national feelings of the world at that time.

J.E.B. What about the "blood of his cross"?

J.T. That is very much akin to what we have in Ephesians, making peace here and also there, "by him to reconcile all things to itself, having made peace by the blood of his cross" (Colossians 1:20). The Godhead is in mind or rather the fulness, that is, what God is has come out, it is the Deity in that sense. It is what is effected through Christ, so it is by Him to reconcile all things to itself, having made peace. The Godhead, the fulness or the Deity has done that by the blood of His cross. In Ephesians and Colossians things are dealt with radically in their roots. It is by the blood of His cross, the death of Christ viewed in that light, the Deity did it itself.

H.W. Is peace in view of the Deity?

J.T. Quite so. The blood means the laying down of the life which the Lord had taken up; life is in the blood. The Lord laid down His life vicariously in dealing with the meanness of man which is abhorrent to God; the fulness did all that.

L.M. Purchased with the blood of His own.

J.T. That is the same blood that brings out the love of God; it is the One He loved. The blood of His cross is the dealing with the thing abhorrent to God but the blood of His own is the love of God; the blood of His cross is a very remarkable word.

We sit down in the assembly and God sees what is in our hearts, what we think of the brethren; He is looking on. If I think of them as He does there is complacency. These things have the assembly in view. If crucifixion has its full place, God is restful in us as reconciled in one body. Then my last thought is, where we are breaking bread, what are the surroundings? The verse in Revelation helps as

to that. Whatever city or town or village we may be in there is no difference in principle; wherever we may be the attitude of the world remains what it was to Christ; it is the same towards us for it is where our Lord was crucified. The bread we break is the communion of the body of Christ and as often as we do it we show the death of our Lord until He come. The thought runs right through; we are exposed to that attitude of the world, crucifying, and the world has not changed, the same thing is there, the same attitude.

C. "Where also our Lord was crucified"; the word 'also' brings out a likeness of treatment?

J.T. The beast made war and overcame and killed the two witnesses and their bodies were exposed three days on the street of the great city to make ridicule. It shows the abhorrence of the world to the witnesses; the people rejoiced in their death and made presents to one another. It is a solemn thing to think that that sort of thing obtains where we break bread. However respectable things may seem outwardly that is what lies at the bottom, and we must expect that. If a real test were made the world would show its hand, and the test will be made and they will treat us in the same way.

H.W. We are in danger of being attached to places.

J.T. Very good. If the test is made they will treat you as they did the Lord. We may expect tests and if they come this is what would come out. The love of one's own native place or country is deep rooted and we think there is nothing like it but if the test comes we shall find they will treat us as they did the Lord. I am not saying anything about the authorities, it is not disrespect for them. Sodom and Egypt stand for the world -- the world is there in all its features -- Sodom is corruption. Egypt refers to the world affording gratification to our natural tastes.

The final thought is "Where also our Lord was crucified". The positive side of the truth runs with what we were saying; the word of the cross deals with the root principles that govern us, that come out, so that we might be here for God. "The Son of God ... loved me, and gave himself for me"; that runs along with what we have been speaking of. It is Christ having been crucified that makes all this of import to us.

THE ATTRACTIVENESS OF CHRIST AS SEEN IN DAVID

1 Chronicles 12:1 - 40

J.T. I had in mind to call attention to the attractiveness of David, figurative of Christ, throughout the tribes, and to point out the three positions in which he is seen: how certain came to him by name in the first two positions, that is Ziklag and the stronghold in the wilderness, and then in Hebron how they came to him tribally. I thought that the chapter furnishes us with a remarkable type of Christ as the centre of gathering and the object of affection amongst the saints, and it brings out the varied qualities of the saints, first in certain of the tribes, Benjamin and Gad and Judah, and then in all the tribes. From verse 23 to the end, that is a universal interest, only two priests are mentioned specifically; in the section treating of Hebron the tribes are all mentioned, but only two men are specifically mentioned, that is, Jehoiada, who is called, as it says, the prince of Aaron, and Zadok, a valiant young man.

F.S.M. Would you tell us just the outline of what these positions would convey to us?

J.T. I think the first, Ziklag, is the Roman position, denoting the recovery of all that had been lost. The second position is in the wilderness, as you will observe, in the stronghold; verse 8 says the Gadites separated themselves to David in the stronghold in the wilderness; I would venture to suggest that the position there is Corinthian, the fellowship. And verse 23, that is Hebron, would be Colossians -- the Christ of Colossians; and He is the centre in these three presentations of Him; He is the object of interest and attraction, a centre of gathering, as viewed in these three positions.

F.S.M. They are progressive.

J.T. Yes, I think they are. You begin with what is fundamental, so that the saints as gathered to him at Ziklag might understand how things have been recovered for God, and we have been recovered and the position in the wilderness corresponds somewhat; it is a parallel position, and the stronghold is there. No stronghold is mentioned at Ziklag or at Hebron; the stronghold is for the wilderness. Hebron is the full thought of gathering en route to Jerusalem -- Jerusalem is in mind. Hebron is an out-of-the-world state of things, and particularly critical for us, for we are loath to leave the wilderness and seen things, and hence these two priests, I think alluding to the power of prayer as in Colossians, by which alone we get over; as the Lord says: "That world, and the resurrection".

F.S.M. In each case it is the Lord personally who is in view, attaching to Himself in the appreciation of His Person.

J.T. That is evident, I think. In the case of Judah we have personal distinction, that is, each believer normally distinguishes himself in these positions. They are positions that require military exploits, and we are all tested as to whether we are distinguished by such; great military ability is stressed up to verse 22.

Ques. Will you explain what you have in mind in relation to the military ability in christianity?

J.T. Well, you will observe that "they were among the mighty men who helped him in the conflict; armed with bows, using both the right hand and the left with stones and with arrows on the bow; they were of Saul's brethren of Benjamin". They are military men efficiently trained, men well balanced; and their thought is to help David, they have no selfish motive. One of the greatest things amongst us is unselfishness, no selfish motive; they were

thinking of David and they helped him, as it says, in the conflict. Every young christian coming into the fellowship has to learn that it is a question of conflict which will go on and which is a matter of the testimony, that Christ is really the issue. It is no matter of party feeling, but Christ is the issue, Himself occupied in the conflict. They join in; they help David in the conflict.

F.S.M. In the epistle to the Romans is the thought of overcoming prominent, leading up to the thought of not being overcome of evil, but overcoming evil with good? Are they David's mighty men who can do that?

J.T. That is good. One of the greatest victories really, in one sense, that can be achieved by any of us is to overcome evil with good.

-- .T. They were Saul's brethren.

J.T. That is another point to be noted, that natural feelings are denied. It is another important point, as coming into fellowship, the denial of natural feelings that work havoc amongst the saints.

Ques. Do you suggest that Romans would clear us of that?

J.T. I think so. Romans sets us free from ourselves; we learn how, as it says, "with the mind I myself serve the law of God" so that it is a question of God henceforth; the Holy Spirit comes in to support us in that, and the chapters from 8 to 12 are to show how the believer overcomes himself; that is, he rules over himself by the Spirit. It says: "If Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness" (Romans 8:10), so that the body ceases to be a vehicle of sin and there is room for the Spirit to bring in righteousness, and it works out in our giving place to good, so that good predominates -- to overcome the evil with good. And the epistle stresses too that love is the whole law. The heart is garrisoned at the outset by the love of

God being shed abroad there by the Spirit, and the principle that love is the whole law is asserted, so that one is filled with good and overcomes evil with it; it is the great weapon.

Rem. Better is "he that ruleth his spirit than he that taketh a city" (Proverbs 16:32). The city might suggest a local position, and we are to be an influence for good there.

J.T. Quite so. And another thing that comes out in Romans is that the armour is the armour of light. It is not yet said to be the whole armour of God, but the armour of light, for as young believers we are so apt to be full of natural or religious thoughts. Light is what is so needed, to be able to name things. Another thing is that, while Satan is strong and we are made to feel it, God will bruise him under our feet shortly; that is the great thought in the conflict -- it will not go on.

Ques. It is said that they came to David in each case; is there not a sense in which we need to take that up, coming to Christ in a new character, not exactly to the Saviour here, but as military men coming under a new leadership?

J.T. Quite so; and leaving an old one, one that has a great claim naturally.

A.W.R. Does it involve staking their own neck for such a leader, as we have in Romans?

J.T. Yes; Aquila and Priscilla you mean, a man and his wife regarded as having one neck and staking it.

W.G. Would Paul be an example of it in chapter 1 when he says, "I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation".

J.T. Yes, quite so. The apostle has in mind the practical need of young christians, for many when young are ashamed of the gospel, ashamed to speak of the Lord Jesus in their business places and the like. Romans teaches military service in that simple

way; Paul is not ashamed of the gospel: there is nothing in it to be ashamed of, for, he says, "It is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth ... For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith". There is a great moral thought there, the power of God, and we are not to be ashamed of it in speaking to anyone. It is to every one that believes, so that in chapter 10, the young believer is enjoined, "If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus ..." -- that is really a military thought, for the enemy is against that with all his power. "No one can say, Lord Jesus, unless in the power of the Holy Spirit" (1 Corinthians 12:3) -- by spiritual power. But there it is, "If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved". I believe the raising of that standard in our places of employment, in the schoolhouse and the like, is practical salvation, and really we begin to be military men in that. So that we have in Numbers, where the enrolment begins, those that were able to go forth to war. Here they came to David who was actively engaged in the conflict, to help him.

Ques. What would be the spiritual equivalent today to the armour?

J.T. They were armed, it says, "with bows, using both the right hand and the left with stones and with arrows on the bow". The bow seems to have a great place. We read of the "song of the bow", according to 2 Samuel 1:18. I believe it alludes to power to fight at a distance; it is an artillery thought.

Rem. Making the word of God effective.

J.T. Yes, the sword of the Spirit is used in Ephesians, it is a hand-to-hand matter. The sword of the Spirit is for a closer war, for a hand-to-hand conflict.

Rem. So they seem to be both right- and left-handed.

J.T. Yes, there was no disadvantage, however attacked -- evidently a great advantage in conflict.

F.S.M. Was it the personal attractiveness of David that was the great lever for the movement?

J.T. Quite so, whatever it would be that would make the Lord attractive to one. There are various features; for instance, with the woman at Sychar it was not a question of personal beauty, as in David or as we get in the Song of Songs, but He could tell her all things that ever she did, she says. He became of interest to her because of that, showing how thoroughly affected she was to the very depths of her soul. It is not His beauty she speaks of, it is the power He had to reach her, to search her out; and what can be of greater value to mankind than that? How the Lord can get down to the depths of our souls and tell us everything! He is the Christ from that point of view, "Is not this the Christ?" (John 4:29). She was really ranged already on His side in going to the men; that required courage.

F.S.M. Is it not true that there was not only the ability with David to deliver them from the bondage and fear of Goliath, but, as has been well said, he had the power to make men love him?

J.T. That is it. The woman says, "The Christ" -- the Man God has to do things. We all need to be searched out; it is a great matter when the thing is settled. You say so-and-so says certain things about you; but you say, 'Well, they cannot say anything that is too bad, because the Christ has told me things about myself that are worse than that'. That idea is armour and the weapon too; the matter is settled, the truth is all out, I am proof against that sort of thing, the enemy cannot attack me on that line. These men knew her, but the Lord had told

her everything; the matter was settled and she was occupied with Him.

Ques. Do you think verse 8 might suggest that such would be prepared to face a moral issue whenever it arises?

J.T. It says, "Of the Gadites, there separated themselves to David in the stronghold in the wilderness mighty men of valour, men fit for the service of war, armed with shield and spear; whose faces were like the faces of lions, and who were swift as the gazelles upon the mountains". Now we have other weapons that will not turn aside from any, that is a shield and spear; we have armour here and spears for closer conflict.

Ques. At Ziklag they were mighty men, but here they are mighty men of valour; they have proved their might, they are trustworthy; is that the thought?

J.T. Quite so, these are proved warriors.

Ques. Is there a suggestion in that that the circle of fellowship helps us in regard to the conflict?

J.T. Well, I think that is what is in mind in verse 8 -- they separated themselves, we get the principle of separation there and that is involved in fellowship, and in the fellowship we have a better understanding of what the conflict is about and furnish ourselves accordingly. We can see there is different armament here, different instruments of war; there is an increase all round. They are mighty men of valour; their faces are like lions; and it goes on to say, in verse 14, "These were the sons of Gad, captains of the host: one of the least was over a hundred, and the greatest over a thousand. These are they that went over Jordan in the first month, when it overflows all its banks, and they put to flight all them of the valleys, toward the east and toward the west". That is, they were men who could fight in the valleys. The Syrians said later that Israel's God is a God of the mountains or the hills,

but not of the valleys (1 Kings 20:28) but He is a God of the valleys; the allusion is, I think, to going down into death, for Jordan denotes that at the height of its power; they are able to go over it and fight beyond.

F.S.M. We get this thought accentuated in 1 Corinthians, "Be ye stedfast, unmovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord" (chapter 15:58). Then, "Stand fast in the faith; quit yourselves like men; be strong. Let all things ye do be done in love" (chapter 16:13,14). These were the mighty men of valour.

J.T. Yes.

Ques. Is the thought of leadership involved?

J.T. That is another great thought, perhaps what is to be observed too, the great want of leadership. Not simply men that will preach and teach, but men who will give a spiritual lead: every meeting needs that. One man is to die for the people, we are told; that is the kind of leadership, to die, to lay down one's life for the brethren, so that one is not contending for one's rights but going down. I think putting the enemy to rout in the valleys is dealing with the fundamental things, entering into death.

Ques. It speaks of the righteous as being as bold as a lion; would the importance of that principle be established in our souls?

J.T. I think it is brought out in Romans, and in Corinthians the apostle says, as it were, 'Whatever you may think of me, do ye what is right'; righteousness is to prevail from that point of view.

Ques. Will you say a word as to being swift as the gazelles upon the mountains?

J.T. Swiftness is an immense advantage. Song of Songs develops the idea of swiftness; the Lord Himself is pictured there as leaping upon the mountains and hills, He overcomes obstacles; things are done immediately. Time has a great deal to do with the testimony, delay is very often disastrous. It is a

question of spiritual agility, would you say, that one is spiritually quick to lay hold of what is needed and meet the exigency, whatever it is?

Ques. Does the house of Chloe in the first epistle to the Corinthians help in regard to that?

J.T. You mean they did not let the matter rest. They placed the information where it could be used to the best advantage. Things are often allowed to drift along; no one does anything, and the enemy has the advantage.

Ques. You mean he would seek to keep us occupied with the evil whereas we should be dealing with it?

J.T. Quite so. I think going over the Jordan means that one accepts death; death enters into this side of the matter. Going over the Jordan is a Colossian thought; the epistles are linked up that way. The truth of going over the Jordan implies that one accepts death in view of the need, not for the sake of an exploit. One of the most sorrowful features of the long war between the house of Saul and the house of David is this matter of exploits of the strong men, a number from each side showing what they could do -- their exploits. There is nothing for God in that at all. The point is not to be distinguished for exploits just because you wish to be distinguished; all the mighty men of David did things for a purpose, and usually you find that in the exploit the Lord worked a great deliverance. That is what you have in mind. The conflict is His, He is the Captain of Jehovah's host.

F.S.M. Following your suggestion, they would never have gone over Jordan had they not come to the stronghold. Is it important for each of us to recognise the need of the stronghold in which David is found, typical of our great Leader, and that would give us spiritual power to go over Jordan into Colossians?

J.T. I think that is good; it is a rallying point. Where exigencies arise that require special effort, it is a question of dying, of whether one can lay down one's life in an issue; for the enemy raises other issues than Christ, and the true warrior always wants to make Christ the issue.

Ques. Would this be seen in any way in Paul when he says, "I was with you in weakness and in fear and in much trembling" (1 Corinthians 2:3), and then when he says, "We had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves" (2 Corinthians 1:9)?

J.T. That is good. Indeed the second epistle to the Corinthians works out the thought of the Jordan. The apostle says, "We had the sentence of death in ourselves" -- it was so great a death. It was no matter of distinguishing himself in some exploit, he had to go through it; that great death he had experienced possibly qualified him to write that second epistle. It needed more grace to write the second epistle than the first. The second was a consolatory epistle, he brings in the positive side of the truth. He says in that epistle, "The weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strongholds ... bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ" (2 Corinthians 10:4,5). That is the point -- everything that assails Christ is to be met, but met in this way, that we should not trust in ourselves but in God which raiseth the dead.

Ques. Would you say something as to the distinction between the conflict in Romans and this, which is a closer conflict, more hand to hand?

J.T. Yes, the Gadites bring out a more hand-to-hand conflict, and it requires more courage, more staying power, than it does to fight with artillery. That can easily be illustrated by ordinary modern warfare. So that the young believer is in mind in the earlier part where artillery is used; whereas the advanced christian is called upon to deal more in a

hand-to-hand way, to stand up and suffer, indeed to die -- for that is the thought.

Ques. Do you think it was the blessing of Jacob in connection with Gad -- "Troops will rush upon him; but he will rush upon the heel" (Genesis 49:19).

J.T. Yes. Also in Moses' blessing Gad alludes to those who were to do with rule. In the details about him in Deuteronomy 33 there is a touch, I think, alluding to rule in the house of God. "Blessed be he that enlargeth Gad! As a lion doth he dwell, and teareth the arm, even the top of the head. And he provided the first part for himself, for there was reserved the portion of the lawgiver; and he came with the heads of the people; the justice of Jehovah and his judgments hath he executed with Israel". It is a very important tribe in that sense, and would enter into our care meetings and the like -- the question of who can have part in these matters. He breaks the enemy's power to do anything and paralyses him in the head, Satan's power in that way, and executes judgment with Israel. I suppose the thought is that he goes along with what there is; he is a true brother in that way whilst having to deal drastically. "The justice of Jehovah and his judgments hath he executed with Israel". I suppose all that would enter into this part of our chapter. How important it is that we have elements of that kind as coming to Christ, all thinking only of Christ, He being the issue -- Christ everything and in all.

Ques. I think you referred to Benjamin, Gad and Judah; would you say what is in your mind in regard to those three?

J.T. We have already spoken of Benjamin as representing the natural, that is the natural in regard of Saul; he overcame that, but Benjamin had a great place in the mind of God. The children of Benjamin are now linking on with Judah; they were seen in the first part of our inquiry by themselves. "There

came of the children of Benjamin and Judah to the hold unto David". Not only have they come to David, but they are now linking on with the purpose of God in Judah. Judah represents the intelligence of the position, not only the military power, but the intelligence of the position, when a brother can give an account of things.

F.S.M. Would the two names help? Benjamin is the son of my right hand, and Judah means praise; and of these two tribes comes one who is able to speak in the most beautiful language to David.

J.T. Quite so. Benjamin takes the lead, and it says, "David went out to meet them, and answered and said to them, If ye come peaceably to me to help me, my heart shall be knit unto you; but if to betray me to mine enemies, seeing there is no wrong in my hands, the God of our fathers see it and rebuke it. And the Spirit came upon Amasai, the chief of the captains, and he said, Thine are we David, and with thee, thou son of Jesse: peace, peace, be to thee! and peace be to thy helpers! for thy God helps thee". I think that is beautiful in regard of what we are saying now; it is all one thing, of course, but here we have the intelligence of the position, one able to speak feelingly, one indeed who came under the power of the Spirit. "The Spirit came upon Amasai" -- that is one of the finest thoughts you get in the Old Testament -- and then there is the expression of the mind of God as to David: "Thine are we, David, and with thee, thou son of Jesse: peace, peace, be to thee! and peace be to thy helpers! for thy God helps thee". We are now on a high level, not yet in Hebron, but we have here the basis for the house, because Jerusalem really belonged to Benjamin as territory finally, and the link between Judah and Benjamin here makes for a dwelling place for God; it is in their full appreciation of Christ unitedly. So that Jerusalem comes into Judah's hands, it becomes

a royal city. Moses said that Jehovah should dwell between Benjamin's shoulders, alluding to Jerusalem's position, but now alluding to the strength of Benjamin spiritually, and that would give way to brotherly feeling, that the great tribe, the tribe of counsel, has the first place. Benjamin recognised that; so that it is the saints coming to recognise what is superior, that is, the place that God gives a person or persons amongst His people, and that these persons are equal to the position, for Amasai is fully equal to this position in what he says to David. He is one upon whom the Spirit of God comes, and this is one of the greatest things amongst us, that there is someone on whom the Spirit of God comes at any given moment where the need is; so it is "not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit, saith Jehovah of hosts" (Zechariah 4:6).

F.S.M. In this section, where fellowship is the subject, Amasai represents, not only the personal, but the collective, committal to Christ.

J.T. I think so. He represents the spirituality of the position, so that Christ is not only regarded in the heart, but He is fully confessed; it is known now whose we are and who is our Centre. They are challenged, but the challenge brings out the qualities that are there. The Lord often raises questions to bring out what He knows is there -- "Will ye also go away? ... To whom shall we go?" says one, "thou hast the words of eternal life" (John 6:67,68).

Rem. This combination of two brothers seems to call for a move on David's part.

J.T. Quite so. It must have been a great moment for him, for Judah was his own tribe -- but then, were they true? The Lord challenges us as to this, as to whether we are true.

Ques. With reference to committal, the word is, "Thine are we, David, and with thee, thou son of

Jesse", does not that bring in the thought of true affinity with David?

J.T. Quite so; and then it says, "Peace, peace be to thee! and peace be to thy helpers!": They are not jealous of others; they do not want to hold things in their own hands, as Joab did afterwards. Joab wanted to hold things in his own hands and his brother's -- there was partisanship. James and John said to the Lord, 'Shall we command fire?' (Luke 9:54) But here the true spirit of christianity is seen in "Peace be to thy helpers!". When Abner came to David to Hebron to turn the kingdom to David, he was really a helper, but Joab slew him; so we have to be brought to recognise what there is for Christ in whomsoever it may be -- "Peace be to thy helpers".

Rem. And God will support that spirit.

J.T. That is what it says -- "Thy God helps thee". So we are on the right line, the position is now clarified. This is the intelligence of the position, one able to speak the mind of God, so we see clearly where we are, and Hebron comes in after that. We have indeed an allusion to some coming when things are at a very low ebb, instead of turning away when things are at a low ebb; it says, "There fell some of Manasseh to David, when he came with the Philistines against Saul to battle". A most sorrowful thing existed, but yet they came; the position is very poor, but yet David is an object. It alludes to a low state of things amongst us, and yet people come in spite of that.

Rem. Evidently they had right sensibilities; it says, "But they helped them not".

J.T. Yes, the Spirit of God puts that in there, it is a saving thought; they did not really help the Philistines at all; Satan is defeated at a juncture like this. One has known of souls being drawn to Christ in spite of most sorrowful circumstances amongst His people. It says, "They helped David in

his expeditions", that would be, I suppose, alluding to the Amalekite attack. Ziklag is not a great general movement, but the basis of expeditions against this or that, and finally, the expedition against the Amalekites carried away everything, so that all is restored. Now we read, at that time "day by day there came men to David to help him, until it was a great camp, like the camp of God". That is what young christians want to see; they are often deterred by the smallness of things outwardly, but we are to understand the position spiritually.

Ques. Would there be a sort of parallel in that, that young believers in a small meeting would take account of the universal situation and that they belong to it?

J.T. That is what I think we should see, the greatness of the position spiritually. Then we see what happened at Hebron. This great section refers to the universal movement, the movement of life, so that the Colossian saints love all the saints -- you get a great outlook, and they are worthy of your affection. If you go over what is depicted here to see the universal traits of the work of God in His people it is very stimulating; they are worthy of our regard and our love, love for all the saints. You cannot but love what is presented here.

F.S.M. Would the transfer of the kingdom answer to the kingdom of the Son of His love in Colossians?

J.T. I think so. Is He not worthy of it? -- the Son of the Father's love! The Father has translated us into this kingdom. It requires attention if we are to get the profit of the chapter, to see the beautiful traits of the work of God set out here in all the tribes, and these two great men outstanding, one a prince of Israel and the other a valiant young man.

Ques. Would Paul and Epaphras answer to it in Colossians?

J.T. That is what I was thinking; you get there the idea of combat in prayer. Epaphras was a valiant young man always combating earnestly in prayer; and then we have the apostle himself in chapter 2, combating in the same way that they might understand this specific thought in his mind, the mystery of God "in which are hid all the treasures of wisdom and of knowledge" (Colossians 2:3). What marks Colosse is universal affection, love for all the saints, and then love in the Spirit; it is not sectional or personal, it is a pure love like God's, love in the Spirit; and then prayer -- we are going over. It is a crucial epistle, a question of getting over to God's side, the heavenly side of the truth, and hence the great need of prayer.

Rem. How God values this, for it is the sons of Zadok who are to be the priests in the coming day.

J.T. That helps to show the value of this valiant young man. "I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you" (1 John 2:14); that is the sort of thing. If the word of God abides in us, the next thing is to pray.

Ques. Will you say a word as to the expression "the prince of Aaron"?

J.T. I think that was what he was then. The house of Aaron is seen here, the priestly family, and he was a prince of it, so that he must be outstanding. I suppose Paul would be that; he said to the Colossians, 'I have never seen your face in the flesh, but I am combating for you that your hearts may be encouraged', "being united together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the full knowledge of the mystery of God; in which are hid all the treasures of wisdom and of knowledge".

Ques. Do you connect this with the perfect heart and the one heart with which the people moved?

J.T. I think so, it is unity of heart.

Ques. Would it result in some sense in the one pearl?

J.T. That is what is in mind -- unity. Ephesians, of course, is the full thought of this. We see what follows particularly in Samuel, what corresponds with this passage, how that David and his men went up to Jerusalem at this juncture. It is a question of men now. Why were they with David three days? That gives time; it is proof, I think. Three days would give us opportunity to prove how blessed the place is, so that it says, "There was joy in Israel". "There they were with David three days, eating and drinking; for their brethren had prepared for them". There was joy in Israel, and this is the true road to it. Ephesians gives us the full position, and Philippians gives us the result, I think, in joy.

Ques. Is this the result of there being men who had understanding of the times?

J.T. Quite so.

Ques. Do all these three sections give a collective movement, or are the first two individual and the third a collective movement, in the transfer of the kingdom?

J.T. Yes, the true collective thought is in the third section; that is, I take it, in Hebron; that is where there are universal affections, love in the Spirit and love to all saints.

Rem. And 'brethren' two or three times mentioned.

J.T. Quite so. And another thing is, in Colossians, in the new man, it is said that Christ is everything and in all; not only is David outstanding here an object to all, but the spirit of David is in them; they are all affected -- he was in their hearts.

F.S.M. "A perfect heart ... to make David king over all Israel" -- "Love ... to all the saints".

SWEET ODOUR

2 Corinthians 2:14 - 16; Genesis 8:20,21; Genesis 27:26,27; Exodus 30:22 - 38

These scriptures speak of odour, and the object of this meeting is to seek to show how the thought applies now. I have selected the scripture from the New Testament because it brings the subject before us in one person and in the direct and literal meaning to be inferred; that is, we see a servant moving about in this wicked world which is full of all that is of ill-savour that the place is capable of. The Western world, led by the Romans associated with the Greeks, developed sin as it had not been developed perhaps hitherto, having the culture which man is capable of and the means too, the wealth of the world, so sin has become developed. I suppose the Lord came into the world as sin had reached its height in that sense, its development. Then since the introduction of christianity the principle has gone on and the world has kept pace, so that sin has reached a peculiar height in our time with all its accompanying nauseous obnoxious odours. And this servant of the Lord can speak in these remarkable verses of what he was in the sense of an odour to God. But he dwells first on the effect on man of the knowledge that he proclaimed in ministry; he stresses the odour of that, a heavenly fragrance brought in, as he says, "in every place". God does not only appeal to man's intelligence, to his mind, but to his sense of smell, as if He would include all the senses in His testimony. There are five, as we know, and they are all in mind in the testimony, hearing and seeing and feeling and tasting and smelling, God in His grace and in the richness of this dispensation appealing to men in their entire being in His testimony. So the apostle can speak of

God leading him in triumph and of the odour of God's knowledge, and then, following that up, of making him an odour of Christ to God in those that were saved and in those that perished, "to the one an odour from death unto death, but to the others an odour from life unto life". So that there was odour, both in regard to men, for there was the odour of God's knowledge spread abroad in every place -- what a testimony, dear brethren, as to God's thought for man! -- and then an odour for Himself at the same time.

I hope to come back to that remarkable passage, but I want to show how this thought of odour runs through the Scriptures, hoping that each one will see that it fits him; and first to show how, in Noah, we have the principle of effulgence in this sense. Noah's father had spoken prophetically about him, and I suppose prophecies going before apply to every one who is especially used of the Lord. There is the forecast in a prophetic way, and then the committal of the saints to each one, "imposition of the hands of the elderhood" (1 Timothy 4:14), and what the elderhood would discern is what it would prophesy; there must be perfect agreement with the prophetic announcement as to a man and the practical working out in the person in mind in his service. This was seen perfectly, I need not say, in the Lord Jesus, concerning whom there had been great prophetic announcements beforehand, and not the least were those uttered by Simeon as he took Him in his arms, yet a Babe, but what wonderful potentialities in that Babe! What effulgence in glory and odour to God was to shine out in His service! How the saints from the outset have committed themselves to Jesus from the standpoint of service! We have committed our souls to Him; we have committed ourselves to Him in view of eternity, but there is committal to Him from the standpoint of service, and this is

represented in the house of Simon the leper. It is a remarkable thing, but it is there the Lord is anointed on the head by a woman whose name is not given. We may infer who she was, but the point is that she committed herself to Him discerning the ability to serve; turning away from the whole hierarchy in Jerusalem, which claimed so much, she committed herself to Him. She anointed Him on the head and the Lord said, "Wheresoever these glad tidings may be preached in the whole world, that also which this woman has done shall be spoken of for a memorial of her", meaning that she was an odour in that she would accompany the glad tidings of the Christ; wherever it was preached she must be mentioned. He says, "What she could she has done" -- that is, she was not assuming to be able to serve, yet she did what she could, and that was that she committed herself to Him who could serve and serve perfectly in every respect. It is in the apprehension of that that I think you will follow what is about to be said as to odour.

So as regards Noah, his father carefully intimated his ministry; he said, He is to be a comfort to us on account of the ground which the Lord has cursed. There would be no special fragrance in the ground as cursed of God, but Noah would change that, and hence the prophecy going before in due course was fulfilled and manifested. It came out in the way of unselfishness: he built an altar and took of every clean beast and every clean fowl and offered burnt offerings, and it says, "Jehovah smelled the sweet odour", a savour of rest, that is a savour of Noah, for that is what his name meant, it was what had been announced; that was the name given to him, it was the shining out of glory in him. And so the savour of Paul too, and of every servant who serves according to God; there was a savour of Paul, he was a savour of Christ -- it was that kind -- in those

that were saved and in those that perished. Well, Jehovah spoke in His heart about this; there is something very interesting in what Jehovah says in His heart. He had said so much by His mouth, and the Lord Jesus said that man is to live by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God; that is to be the food for man. But He spoke here in His heart-a very remarkable thing, as if there was something He treasured and perhaps would not say much about, but the result would show what was in His heart, and that is that He would not curse; there was to be henceforth something to carry on this savour, not only in the way of offerings through death. Noah's offerings were not agricultural like Cain's; not that agricultural-offerings were not accepted, for all the meat-offerings are from the ground; they are the accompaniments of death-offerings, of the shedding of blood. And so there must be meat-offerings, dear brethren, and these must be marked by sweet savour too. The shewbread in the tabernacle was marked by frankincense spread over the twelve loaves. So Jehovah said this in His heart. I want you to dwell on that, dear brethren, how God would draw us near to Him that we might know something of what He says in His heart. It will come out. Whatever God says in His heart will find expression, but it is very interesting that He said this in His heart and that was that He would not again any more curse the ground for man's sake, and that "all the days of the earth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night, shall not cease". That is, there would be a means of carrying on the sweet savour on the principle of meat-offerings. I do not say that is all that is in the passage, but it certainly is in the passage, for Exodus and Leviticus contemplate the need for fine flour and if there is to be fine flour, there must be seedtime and there must be seed,

there must be harvest, and then all that follows on that, that is cold and heat. The allusion really is to ourselves, to the people of God, that, if He is to have us for His pleasure and for odour in His nostrils, there must be the seed sown, and then the cold and heat, the cold necessary in the way of discipline, and the heat, the warm breath of the south, as it were, developing the growth, and then the persons having intelligence to know what to call these things, to know how to name the discipline of God that is in view of our growth and formation, and, on the other hand, to name the heat and call it summer. We arrive at intelligence when we begin to name things. And then there is "day and night", a constant changing experience whilst we are down here. So there is to be a continuance of the savour, not only in sacrifices such as Abel's and Noah's, but in agricultural sacrifices, as I might say. If we have the basis of the death of Christ, dear brethren, then we can look for fruit in man. There could only be fruit on the basis of a vicarious sacrifice. It could only be confined to Christ aside from the vicarious death of the Lord Jesus; if He falls into the ground and dies He brings forth much fruit, and that fruit is of His own kind, and that is wherein lies the meat-offering.

I pass on to chapter 27 so that we may see how a young christian comes under God with a view to all this. God has ordered things so that Isaac is now ready to bless -- not that he knew Jacob, but he discerned he had the smell of blessing. It was not a new thing with Jacob: he had a history, God had been with him before, before he was born he was a subject of the work of God in this sense. It is a remarkable thing that we have such suggestions in Scripture; how far back God goes -- to the source of our being, so that He begins His work and secures us for Himself. "The elder", it says, "shall serve the

younger". Jacob was the younger, and he was a supplanter before he was born. Where did he get the instinct? Not from Isaac or Rebecca, but from God. We have to remember that even as ordinary men we get things from God; we get our spirits from God. Jacob got the power of supplanting from God, and that is what is to work out; the smell was there, so Isaac says, "The smell of my son is as the smell of a field which Jehovah hath blessed". What a thought for every young one here! Who knows how far back God has gone with you? How early at times we see instincts developing in the young! Before God formally commits Himself to that one, there is something there; those near him notice it; there is something different. What a difference there was between Jacob and Esau! Jacob was a plain man; where did he get that plainness? He aspired to no show in this world; where did he get that instinct? He got it from God, he got the power of supplanting from God. And now the time comes when Jehovah will bless in a special way. It is a very solemn matter; someone was to be blessed. It was in Isaac's mind to bless the wrong man, and this is very often the case with us, alas; but not with God for God never fails, nothing can interfere with His purpose, in spite of the greatest difficulties God reaches His end. Let every one of us accept that; He will see to it that what He has in His mind about us will come about and even an Isaac is able to smell what was there.

But then with Isaac it was just one kind of odour, and I am going to speak a little about the great variety of odours in the compound that God has in His assembly. You can understand, dear brethren, that every such one, every one like Jacob whom God has blessed, has an odour of his own, so to speak. In Genesis we get isolated cases, but we get the aggregate in Exodus, the collective thought, the gathering up of all that there is in unity, so that we

have a compound. With Isaac it is just an agricultural idea, as I said before, there is the smell there; that is the rich field. I suppose farmers and agriculturalists understand; but at any rate, spiritually we can understand what potentiality there is in a young christian; we see the germ there, and so we look for the results. A field has great possibilities; the Lord bought a field, you know; He calls it the world. There are great possibilities in it, and what He has been doing for eighteen or nineteen centuries is getting out of it those possibilities. What glories, dear brethren, have shone, what wealth He has secured as He worked the field and is working it, and what a privilege it is to have part in these workings to bring out its glories, the fulness of the earth, as we may call it! There is just one thought in Jacob, that is a field, but when we come to Exodus, as I said, we have added measure. It is not that God has to put up with everything: that is the principle in Genesis; He takes what comes, the mixture; but when we come to Exodus, God is the God of measure, and He will have what He wants. So we may as well understand this, that we are now to place ourselves on His altar; it is our intelligent service to present our bodies a living sacrifice to God. He has something to work out that is great and glorious, and surely I would not hinder Him! I want to have part in that; He is the great Architect of what He has in mind, and I want to be in His hands. That is Exodus and He is the God of measure. Perhaps we have not thought much of that, but it is most important to have in our minds that God is the God of measure, and when we come to measure we come to accuracy. So we have this refined thought of the heavenly Apothecary, the work of the perfumer; these words are found in this passage in the proper reading of it, that is to say, you come to the God of measure in regard of odours; it is a matter of the apothecary. I suppose we would

call that a science; certainly it is a very refined matter. And so the anointing is the first thing. "He that establishes us with you in Christ", says the apostle, "and has anointed us, is God, who also has sealed us" (2 Corinthians 1:21,22). Now, if we are to understand this word 'anointing' we shall need to look into Exodus 30, because it is written for us; I can put myself into it, I have a part in this. Notice there are two words used in regard of spices in the passage I read. The Authorised Version says the "sweet spices" for both compounds, but in the New Translation, the second compound, that is, the incense, is "fragrant drugs" with frankincense. The elements of the ointment are spices, with the one added element of olive oil. You say, These are beyond us, but, dear brethren, what I am endeavouring to bring before you is that you are the person, I am the person; these matters refer to us. God is saying to us that He has great thoughts; He has the most refined holy smell, for His nostrils are spoken of, and He is thinking of us as to what part we have in it. How searching this is, as to whether I have, in my clothes the smell of an Esau. Sure enough he is a man of the field, but that is not the smell that Isaac smelled; this was not the field in that sense; the field in that sense is covered by the word 'turf', the tennis court and that sort of thing; it is not the productivity of the field that is in mind, but the surface to be used for man's pleasure. That is what Esau was; it does not say he cultivated the field; he was a man of the field in the sense of being a hunter, for he came from Nimrod. We are told, over against that, that Jacob was a plain man dwelling in tents. So it becomes searching; can I come into this compound? The first is said to be liquid myrrh, five hundred shekels. The last is said to be cassia, also five hundred shekels. That is, it is so many shekels of that kind of thing. Then two hundred and fifty shekels of two other spices; and finally, olive oil

a hin. What part have I in that? You say, Well, that is beyond me. But it is written for us, dear brethren; it is a question of the compound; it is the fruit of the field that the Lord has blessed. These things are to work out of the field, and what a variety there is in the field, if we take all these spices and these fragrant drugs. So there is perfect measure, and the first -- it ought to touch our hearts -- is undoubtedly the spirit of the suffering Christ, the myrrh: how fragrant that is to God in that holy Sufferer! And then the other two half as much, and the final one equal, what can they be? Well, something corresponds to cassia, perfect in measure with God, but found in this dispensation; there can be no question about it. Where do I fit? Whether it be in my household or my business or my pleasure, what about the odour? -- but above all, as I have part in the assembly, for that is in mind. You will observe that the ointment is made of this compound, and then we are told what it was to be used for, all the items in the tabernacle, and these, dear brethren, refer to the saints; the true tabernacle which the Lord has pitched refers to the saints. It is His own action; the Lord has pitched it and not man. It is God notifying us that, while He values every little thing in each of us, He has His own measure and place for each one of us; and, as each is filling his niche, he is anointed with this holy compound; every item of the tabernacle is anointed. What fragrance there is with that! I do not say that fragrance is all, but certainly these spices emitted fragrance, even in the public aspect of the tabernacle there is fragrance ascending all the time. That is over against the obnoxious odours around. God finds pleasure in His people viewed in this collective way. How great the thought is, dear brethren, and how one can dwell on each to see how he fits in this holy ointment, as it is called, this "perfume of perfumery after the work

of the perfumer"; it is "an oil of holy ointment", as if God would impress upon us that all other odours must be denied. It is not indeed to be applied to man's flesh; it alludes to us as after the order of Christ. And then the incense is more for the inside of the tabernacle, the holy sphere of the divine presence within. It is a very refined measure and it involves increased spirituality; it is composed, as I said before, of fragrant drugs; there are three named beside the frankincense, five ingredients in the ointment and four in the incense, and it is prescribed that it is to be inside. God says to Moses, "Where I will meet with thee", in the very holiest of all this holy odour was to be, where God met with Moses. Then again we have it in the holy place too, for there was an altar, as we are told in this chapter, of incense, which alludes to our seasons of prayer. You see I am giving a practical application to all this to bring out what God has in this world at the present time, however little, whether publicly or privately, whether it be the innermost place of our privilege, this holy odour is there. So the incense is burnt in the holy place; as we learn in Revelation, the prayers of all saints were caused to ascend in the fragrance of that incense by the great Priest, our great Priest, at the altar there. What a character, dear brethren, this gives our meetings for prayer. Then the whole week, as I may say, is filled out for God. What He has in the assembly! What pleasure publicly as well, in the anointing. So the priest takes the incense and burns it in the holy place, and even in the book of the Revelation, and this is very significant, there are golden vials containing the prayers of the saints. Think of what God has in the prayers of the brethren! The use of these vials suggests that the prayers are to be carried forward and remembered; they are always there in fragrance. I speak of all these things, as I said before, so that we might have before us

what God has in us publicly and privately, as typified in these wonderful things: it is a holy ointment and it is holy incense, the incense being the most refined of all, belonging to the inside, the place of the most holy, as I might say, where we carry on the service under the direction of the Minister of the sanctuary, all is fragrant.

Now I come back just for a moment to the apostle to bring out the thought in regard of those of us who are more specifically privileged to serve the Lord and to serve His people, first as to the character of knowledge, whether it is free from all that is merely intellectual, whether it is fresh, whether it is free from stain, whether it is in the freshness and energy of the Spirit of God and so emitting a fragrance in every place, for that is the idea. The idea of ministry is that ministers go from place to place; the Lord sent the seventy two by two before Him "into every city and place where he Himself was about to come" (Luke 10:1). As He came to the town, there would be that fragrance, the freshness and knowledge they had from heaven to convey to men. And then, secondly, as has been said, how the apostle was himself fragrant, no doubt carrying on the thought of the knowledge, but he himself was fragrant, that is in keeping with the knowledge that he has spread abroad -- I suppose the allusion is to the triumphal entry accorded to returning victors in the Roman era -- they were honoured in this way. But how great is the thought of God leading us in triumph, as the apostle said -- God doing it. Whatever the opposition, all is well, even if there were no converts, even if there were dire opposition -- always led in triumph by God, and the savour of divine knowledge shed abroad, so that there was in truth a triumphal return from every service, whether it was a successful service, or whether it seemed to result in very little. There was a savour of life unto life, and of death

unto death. You may say, Surely there is nothing in that savour of death unto death for God! but it refers to the one thing that had resulted in the presentation of Christ in a living way; even although death followed, there was a savour in it.

That was all I had to say, dear brethren; I suppose it can be easily followed. One can only make a few suggestions; the gain would follow in looking into these things and seeing how they apply, whether I can have part in this holy fragrance for God that is to continue till the end. There is no doubt that the Lord is aiming at perfecting us so that we shall have this testimony before our translation that we please God.

DISCIPLINE CONTRIBUTING TO THE SERVICE OF GOD

Jonah 2:1 - 10; Habakkuk 3:17 - 19; Malachi 3:16

J.T. The thought came to my mind this morning, and I wish to bring it before the brethren, that the service of God is cumulative; it is not a fixed thing like the service of the Establishment. The Spirit of God continues with us, and there are contributions right to the end, and particularly through discipline. These two chapters in Jonah and Habakkuk are said to be prayers and they culminate in contributions to the service of God, the service of song. They are just samples of what may be found elsewhere in the whole prophetic line, indeed in the historical side too, after David. The thought is brought forward so that we might see how we may contribute and have part in the service in that sense, and that discipline is to be regarded thus. These two chapters are doleful at the outset, but culminate in definite contributions: Jonah says, "I will sacrifice unto thee with the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay that that I have vowed. Salvation is of Jehovah"; and Habakkuk says, Whatever happens, however severe the discipline, the government of God, may be: "Although the fig tree shall not blossom, neither shall fruit be in the vines ... yet I will rejoice in the Lord, I will joy in the God of my salvation. The Lord God is my strength, and he will make my feet like hinds' feet, and he will make me to walk upon mine high places". And then he formally hands it over, as it were, "To the chief singer" or Musician "on my stringed instruments", that is, he had reached that elevation spiritually. And Malachi brings in the thought of sonship without the actual contribution; he suggests there would be those who feared Jehovah and who were pleasing to God, and God says, "I will spare them as a man spareth his own son that serveth him".

Referring back to Exodus 4, where the subject began, Jehovah said to Pharaoh that His son should serve Him.

H.P.W. I could not help thinking this morning of a remark J.N.D. made as to angels, that they are never said to sing and that the heart of man is tuned. Is this the way our hearts are tuned as we come into the school of God by discipline?

J.T. That is the way it stands here. Habakkuk's book refers to discipline; he had come to recognise this discipline and the last chapter is said to be upon Shigionoth, the musical instruments, whatever it may mean, but it ends on Neginoth, stringed instruments, as if there is a steady progress. The first part doubtless alludes to what is oppressive and the heart is varied in its expressions, as it is with most of us; as we are in the making our notes are varied, perhaps doleful, but we gradually merge to a higher plane where there is complete deliverance and we breathe another atmosphere. Then, whatever God may allow in His discipline and government, we are unmoved. He says, "I will rejoice in Jehovah, I will joy in the God of my salvation. Jehovah, the Lord, is my strength" -- a great point to reach, and it is where we are qualified to enter on assembly service when we are thus delivered.

P.L. Does the dry land referred to in Jonah 2:10 link up with our own territory in that way, as if the spirit of song qualified him to occupy it now?

J.T. The dry land would be sure footing. What variable exercises he had in the fish's belly. Of course, we may treat his position in the great fish as symbolical of the Lord to a point, but we are speaking of it now from the standpoint of his own experience, and what it resulted in, sure ground; reaching the assembly we are on sure ground; we know where we are.

H.P.W. As with Habakkuk, who really claims the ground as his -- "my salvation", "my strength", "my

feet", walking upon "mine high places" -- it is what he had made his own.

J.T. 'There no stranger-God ...', (Hymn 76) quite so; it is our own territory.

-- .B. Is this on the line of all things working together for good?

J.T. It is so, because he was self-willed, showing how God can work out His way in spite of our wills. It was not a casual fish, but a prepared one; all the discipline and the formation of God's people are not casual or accidental, they are all in purpose; everything is in the mind of God and ordered accordingly. In the discipline of God, although our feelings may be varied and perhaps rebellious at times, yet if a right thought is implanted in our minds and we pursue that, God brings us back to it. Jonah was thinking of holiness: he speaks of God's holy temple. It is very different from the journey in the boat where there was self-will, getting away from the will of God too. Jonah went down to Joppa, he went down into the sides of the ship -- it is all going down, and what is there in it? Sorrowful feelings! But now he is carried back in another vessel, a living vessel, and the idea of life is there, so that he is thinking of God, his mind is in the right direction, prayer, Thy holy temple, and finally he reaches the point himself.

F.W.O. Is there a suggestion in the first part of his experience, in the fish's belly, of another kind of going down?

J.T. It is in a divinely provided vessel, a living creature. The living creatures are characteristically in sympathy with God; we get them in Revelation and in Ezekiel.

H.P.W. Is it really that God brings the great question of death right home to our souls, and is that the only way in which our wills are really broken?

J.T. That seems to be the thought in this chapter, going down in that sense but in a living vessel.

F.W.O. Will you open up that thought a little?

J.T. Well, it is different from the ship in which he went to Joppa that men had made, where he had to pay his fare; he is now in the midst of life but still death is felt. The fish goes all the way; it is a divinely prepared vessel.

H.P.W. I suppose, if it were actual death and there were no outlook beyond, he would never have been able to speak like this, but it is really in the sense, as pointed out, that he had an outlook toward the temple, the result of having an outlook beyond death.

J.T. Yes, it must be discipline, for he is a real child of God, as we say, and capable of going through all this in the divinely appointed vessel.

H.P.W. Have you in mind that, if the Lord's hand comes upon us in discipline, it is our salvation to see that it is the Lord's hand and not merely circumstances, so that it gives us an outlook on life, instead of just death?

J.T. Quite so. He was three days and three nights there -- it was a measure of time. It is Jehovah's matter; that is the great thing to grasp, you are in His hands, and it is what He has prepared.

-- .F. Is that why he says, "I will look ... toward thy holy temple"?

J.T. Well, he has confidence in God. God knows how much we can stand and everything is measured with Him. So Jonah, it says, "prayed unto Jehovah his God" -- it is his God, a very beautiful thought! He said, "I cried by reason of my distress unto Jehovah, and he answered me; Out of the belly of Sheol cried I: thou heardest my voice. For thou didst cast me into the depth, into the heart of the seas". He is having to do with God; it is God's matter; all is under God's hand on a measured principle, and he said, "I am cast out from before thine eyes, yet will I look again toward thy holy

temple. The waters encompassed me, to the soul". It is a real thing; it is tasting the waters.

H.P.W. And then the comfort of the thought that, "Thou heardest my voice". It would be awful to cry and not be heard; the Lord had to know that for us, but we cry and would have the sense that we are heard.

J.T. Quite so. He tells us all; no doubt the germ of it was while he was in the fish's belly, but it is a production afterwards, and therefore it was a fixed contribution. That is, I suppose, how our hymnbook was built up, but these prophetic productions are of the same order and remind us that the service of God is largely a question of singing; that is, the outcome of feelings in appointed channels in a living way.

-- .G. Chapter 1:16 says, "The men feared Jehovah exceedingly", then the result would be seen in Jonah.

J.T. Well, they got something out of it. It is in Jonah that the full results are seen. He says, "I went down to the bottoms of the mountains"; then, "I remembered Jehovah; and my prayer came in unto thee, into thy holy temple" -- the order is perfect.

-- .S. Does discipline stand specially in relation to service?

J.T. I think so. It is all in view of God, what He is working out for Himself. "Of him, and through him, and for him are all things: to whom be glory for ever" (Romans 11:36). We must come to see that. No doubt Jonah would spend some time over this, but he had the germ of it in his soul -- "Jehovah his God" -- he had that much before him. And the principle of holiness being worked out is so important in discipline, that I have God before me, and God knows how much I can stand, and it is all on the principle of measure, but He works out the element of holiness -- in His "holy temple", it is a very

beautiful expression I think -- "Jehovah his God".

Ques. How does chapter 4 come in in connection with this?

J.T. I suppose the best testimony we have that Jonah really profited by these things is that he wrote the book. He must have hung his head with shame when he had to write the fourth chapter after the second chapter. Why should I go back on what I have already learnt and complain about God?

P.L. How he should have taught them to sing in the fourth chapter! They are distressed and put on sackcloth, what a servant he might have been as a prophet! He had brought them into distress, should he not have led them in resulting song!

J.T. Yes; you are including the third chapter?

P.L. Yes. Is the servant's work done that just leaves the soul in distress? -- rightly so, maybe -- but he did not bring Nineveh to the full thought of God for it in the gospel, perhaps like many an evangelist who does not bring souls on to this dry ground.

J.T. He certainly did not follow up his teaching. His preaching was of judgment -- "Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown" -- the preaching of judgment brought about repentance. Had he gone on with this second chapter, what a change there would have been.

P.L. Yes. I was thinking of the evangelists at Philippi; they went on to this in the prison and the prisoners no doubt would have been brought into it. So Paul says to the Philippians, "Rejoice in the Lord alway: and again I say, Rejoice" (Philippians 4:4).

J.T. What a contribution that singing in the prison was; they prayed and sang praises to God in the prison. What an impression it would make -- what a God these men must have! So I suppose this second chapter is the full spiritual result possible after the experience at Nineveh. How patiently God waited on Jonah, preparing a gourd and preparing a

worm, and then how God thought of the people in the city; all that should, and doubtless did, affect him, and enter into the book he wrote.

H.P.W. Yes, he was a very fine evangelist, for when he finishes up in chapter 3, he goes completely out of sight. He exposes his own hardness of heart, but just leaves the matter with a beautiful expression of God, as much as to say, Now, that is really my God.

F.W.O. So that he really learnt another kind of going down.

J.T. Quite so.

H.P.W. Is not that what one would like to do in preaching the gospel, to go out of sight, but leave the soul with an impression of God he would never forget?

J.T. Quite so, and God takes up what He can. In the book of Job, He took up Elihu's words. This book is a contribution, not only to the service of God, but to the prophetic ministry too, and, certainly, leaving us with God is a great matter. It is only a contribution, none of these books is a finished matter; no minister assumes that the thing he is presenting is a finished thing, he just leaves it open and other things can follow. How many evangelists have been helped by this book? The devil has attacked it and Genesis more than any other books. It is a most valuable contribution to the service of God.

-- .W. Does Jacob arrive at this at Bethel?

J.T. Well, he got to sure ground. He was told to go there; that is another thing, the commandment or the ordering of God comes into the Lord's supper, and that is a principle, I think, of the house. Jacob was directed to go there, and his name was changed, but he goes further than that, he goes to Hebron, that is dry ground, that is Christ in resurrection; it is like Colossians. On the way he lost Rachel, another

pull on his affections, another discipline. The house is not final, it is a provisional thing; it is resurrection and heaven that is the thing for us; the dry land is there.

P.L. Would reaching God in this way enable us to clothe men with redemption thoughts? J.N.D. has a marginal reading of verse 3 of chapter 3, as to Nineveh, saying that the word 'great city' is literally 'great to God'. I was thinking of the deep feelings.

J.T. Quite so. It could only have been great to God in the sense of what was there, the king and those who humbled themselves; it never was greater in its history than at this moment.

P.L. It was all that was left of it.

J.T. Quite so. We have another book to tell us of the burial of this great city, but now it is great to God in view of Jonah's preaching and what it effected.

Rem. In two other places it is called "the great city".

J.T. Yes. It is very like the world in reconciliation; it is great to God because of what is there potentially. It will soon become so odious to Him that He will bury it, but, for the moment, it is the gospel region and God is intensely interested in it in that respect.

P.L. So it stands in the light of the Lord's three days' journey which Jonah prefigures here.

J.T. We might also link it up with the thought of the peculiar treasure in the world. It is a great thing to see, and it ought to be in our minds in preaching, that it is not a judged world we are preaching to. "Go into all the world" -- that is a moral thought -- "and preach the glad tidings to all the creation" -- the latter thought is that there is a link with God in all the creation. That is the attitude of our minds in preaching. Paul says, "In him we live and move

and exist" (Acts 17:28); that is a world that is in favour provisionally. Jonah did not like the thought of forgiveness, he preached judgment; but God had more in His mind, and chapter 4 is to bring out that Jonah learnt that too -- but before that he was not sympathetic with God as to grace.

P.L. Is it because you have to go out of sight to bring God in on this line that makes Jonah wrathful? The last verse of chapter 3 shows the way that God deals with souls in His grace -- is that probably what Jonah resisted? You are lost in the magnificence of the message you render and God fills the vision of the soul. If a soul is blessed it is God who does it, the preacher is nothing in a certain sense. May that not have been, alas, a source of irritation?

J.T. Apparently it was here. It says, "And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil that he had said he would do unto them, and he did it not" -- that was grace -- but "it displeased Jonah exceedingly, and he was angry". Afterwards Jonah learnt the lesson; he made no attempt, after God had finished speaking, to justify his point of view; that means, he had accepted God's point of view.

P.L. I thought the contrast was, "Jesus Christ might display the whole long-suffering, for a delineation of those about to believe on him to life eternal" (1 Timothy 1:16). So the lifting up of hands is not in wrath, but in the dignity and grace of the dispensation. I was thinking of your reference to glory yesterday in this connection, the servant's glory being to bring God in as supreme, so it is a savour of life unto life, as we were saying. In Jonah there was life, but Jonah's state was not in agreement with that, there was no savour there.

J.T. Yes, Jonah would have had to hang his head and say, How unlike God I was; but when we come to the New Testament and read the epistles of Paul,

particularly those to the Corinthians, we see how the glory shone in him -- life unto life.

H.P.W. Jonah, in a sense, would say, I am not worth speaking about; I will just leave you with my God; like John the baptist, he was a voice of one crying in the wilderness -- as if he wanted God to come straight out to the repentant soul.

J.T. Quite so. They sent to Jerusalem to make much of him, but, 'No', he says, 'I am not fit to unloose His sandals'.

H.P.W. A remarkable thing that a man should be allowed to make a straight path for God! -- "Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight his paths" (Matthew 3:3).

J.T. The contribution of Habakkuk is, of course, on higher ground. In the main, Jonah's is an evangelical contribution, but Habakkuk refers more directly to the service of God, for he brings in intelligent contribution. Since the Reformation there has been a remarkable opening up of things evangelically but now we have a subsequent note, the chief Musician is brought in. Jonah does not use any instruments; Habakkuk does, and he tells us what they were. The first would point to elegy, something doleful, but it culminates in firm ground, and what he calls his "high places", and God supports him there. I think we have reached a little of that.

H.P.W. As found in separation with the Lord Jesus; He is the chief Musician, is He not?

J.T. I think the revival of the truth implies that Christ is everything and in all, that is, the fresh new man, in Colossians, is "renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him". But Christ is everything in his affections, and in all; there is no room for anybody else in that phase of the new man. I think that enters into what we are saying as to the chief Musician, the whole matter is in His hands. How blessed to reach that in our assembly service;

the matter is in the Lord's hands, He is the Minister of the sanctuary. That is what developed in the later revival of the truth.

P.L. So the doxology in Romans would attach rather more to the Jonah setting, while the postscript, alluding to the mystery and what is taken up in Colossians, would attach to Habakkuk.

J.T. Quite so. And then Ephesians is the completion -- Glory to God in the assembly in Christ Jesus. The preposition there is a preposition of power, that is, it is in Christ Jesus. The matter is sure now, he looks at everything in Christ Jesus -- "To him be glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus unto all generations of the age of ages" (Ephesians 3:21).

H.P.W. The writer in Habakkuk is brought into the joy of the Lord in his own soul as adjusted through the discipline and then he is conscious that he is a contributor; then he acknowledges the chief Musician, but he still says, "on my stringed instruments", but under the direction of the chief Musician. Is that it?

J.T. Yes, and I think the stringed instruments allude to the heavenly side. I do not think there are wind instruments used in heaven, no variable notes, but stringed instruments, involving intelligence. A wind instrument involves life, but a stringed instrument involves intelligence: the fingers are used, pointing to intelligence and skill in music.

-- .B. Were the latter what David had when he came before Saul?

J.T. Yes. Heaven is marked by supreme intelligence; a harp is the only kind of instrument mentioned as being used there. I suppose it is that kind of instrument that affords the working out of skill in music; that is what the Lord is helping us on in the assembly, "I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also" (1 Corinthians 14:15).

H.P.W. I suppose a stringed instrument is one that constantly needs to be kept in tune, unlike a wind instrument.

J.T. I do not know much about it, but I can see the manipulation of the strings must require skill to give the right harmony in touch; they naturally weaken in their use.

H.P.W. I was only thinking of our own state of soul, how constantly we need to be kept in touch with the chief Musician, otherwise the note seems to lose its tone.

J.T. Yes, we must come under Him now. I believe the Lord is greatly helping us on those lines, to get the minds of the saints right and their affections, as to what is proper to the assembly.

As regards Malachi, the Spirit of God through him maintains the link. Of course, the subject might be carried right through from David to Malachi.

P.L. "We hanged our harps upon the willows" (Psalm 137:2). There is sensitiveness there; they would not use their harps in Babylon; they preserved them in confidence that they would come into use as the fruit of the great revival.

J.T. That is the idea, I think. They would not sing the songs of Zion in a strange land. The Songs of Degrees would be that they are on the way back where they belong.

P.L. It would be more a rallying of the saints in a military setting when they go back and build. It says the instruments of David were taken up when the choirs began to move in Nehemiah; would that be an upward movement as they come into something choice?

J.T. Quite so. The Spirit seems to keep a link in Malachi; although it is less exuberant, yet it is there. "Then they that feared Jehovah spoke often one to another; and Jehovah observed it, and heard, and a book of remembrance was written before him for

them that feared Jehovah, and that thought upon his name. And they shall be unto me a peculiar treasure, saith Jehovah of hosts, in the day that I prepare". Now, what does that "prepare" mean? That is the great day when God is carrying out what is before Him. "And I will spare them as a man spareth his own son that serveth him". So that we have the suggestion of Exodus 4, the thought of sonship, carried on to the last book.

P.L. While the music is not emphasised, the dignity of the musicians is -- they are sons.

J.T. Quite so.

Ques. Habakkuk is marked by being able to see things; would that help in regard to the skilful touch on the stringed instruments applying to our day?

J.T. Quite so, he is able to see things and give an account of what he saw.

Ques. Can you connect Peter showing how the government of God results in an issue for God, with Jonah; and then Paul more with Habakkuk's line; and would John suggest sonship and the persons here?

J.T. Well, I was going to say Malachi is the persons. John 4 is the Father seeking the persons, not the worship, but the persons who worship, and the persons are here; so Malachi brings in "his own son that serveth him". We were speaking the other day about preparing; whatever we do Godward or manward, it is not simply the thing that is done, but the person who does it. That is the force of "prepare", I think, in these connections.

TAKING ON GLORY

2 Corinthians 3:11 - 18; 2 Corinthians 4:1,2; Acts 7:55 - 60; Luke 9:28 - 36

I have in mind, dear brethren, to speak about the glory; it is a very great subject so that it is only in my mind to refer to it in connection with the verses read, that is, first of all christians in general as taking it on, and then in service, and finally, how it is seen in Jesus.

Stephen began his address with "The God of glory", showing how he had entered into the mind of God at the call of Abraham. In his service he had advanced from deaconship to the greatest position in the testimony, evidently in a short time. "The God of glory" -- he could hardly have begun in a more suitable way an address covering thousands of years in the course of the testimony and he closes it with "the glory of God". Now in 2 Corinthians we have the thought of taking on glory, as seen in the ministers, but involving all christians. The reference is to Moses and how his face shone as having imbibed the glory. He is the great prototype of all ministers; it is said of him that he "was faithful in all his [that is, God's] house" (Hebrews 3:5), a great tribute to him personally; he was capable of taking on glory and reflecting it. That is what I was thinking in connection with these verses, of taking on the glory of God: first of all, the covenant glory shining in the face of Jesus. Paul was a minister of this new covenant ministry. Like Moses in the Old Testament, he speaks of "vessels of mercy, which he had before prepared for glory" (Romans 9:23), a word which we should all take in, each taking it to himself, as a vessel of mercy, before prepared for glory; that is, God had in mind that we should be capable of glory. The idea is not simply that I win it, but I

take it on, that there should be no disparity between what He puts upon us and what we are in ourselves. God is leading many sons to glory, but already we have been invested with glory, and that requires a condition, and Moses had acquired that condition. It is what is developed in Exodus 32 and 34, the two descents from the mount. He had been on the mount forty days receiving the pattern of the tabernacle; in the first descent there was no shining, but moral glory shines out in his faithfulness in the crisis and after he returns to Jehovah. He ascends again with the two fresh tables, tables which were to be put into the ark, and it was then that he requested for himself, "Let me, I pray thee, see thy glory" (Exodus 33:18). How God would delight in that! No asking like that would be denied; it was a noble request. God says, "I will make all my goodness pass before thy face", but still there was the request; it lay, so to speak, on the table of heaven. God would not deny it. Then we have, "When my glory passeth by ... I will put thee in a cleft of the rock". The place is secure, it was only a question of time, and the glory should be seen, the glory of Christ. It takes many centuries to bring out certain prayers, but they are answered in God's time, for He is seen later on the mount of glory in the gospels. The Lord's prayer in John 17 is being answered now. His prayers for unity were never forgotten.

Now you get the word to Moses, "After the tenor of these words have I made a covenant with thee and with Israel" (Exodus 34:27). It is the spirit of the thing. And then we have, "Moses knew not that the skin of his face shone through his talking with him" (verse 29). It is the glory of the covenant. God had talked with Abraham previously, but there is no word about glory in Abraham's face, but there is in Moses' face; and that is what I have in mind, the thought of the condition of taking on glory in a man.

God had let out something in that wonderful interview in the second visit to the mount, something that suggested glory, and there it was in the face of Moses. And Moses called to them and they turned to him, turned to the glory; that is the point now, turning to the glory; there is nothing like the glory shining in the face of Jesus Christ. There are those who turn away from the glory; the apostle says that those to whom it is veiled will be lost (2 Corinthians 4:3). And so it says "We all, [that is, all the saints] looking on the glory of the Lord, with unveiled face, are transformed according to the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Lord the Spirit". For us the veil is gone, not yet for poor Israel; they are going back now, but the veil is there; they are dark as ever, but the time is coming when they shall turn to the Lord, and what a change will be effected in them then! Turning is the thought; it is really conversion; but "we all", that is christians as I understand it, "looking on the glory of the Lord, with unveiled face, are transformed ..." You can see that is all we have to do, to look at Him!

So we have "the Lord the Spirit"; it is one of His offices; He has got material now. When the heavens were garnished there was material to take on that ornamentation, but now it is the saints, they are the material. The apostle begins with that thought in the chapter, the idea of material, of what takes on an impression; and the Lord is doing that, exercising this great office to bring about a change in His people, not a passing change, but a real change, one glory to another, the glory of the Lord; He is effecting it Himself, and it enters into our assembly service. Of course, most of us know that from the end of verse 6 to the end of verse 16 is a parenthesis; it is as if the apostle turns aside to show us what a wonderful thing this is, that God is seeking that we should take on glory. It is by the ministry of the

Spirit, no less than that, and it is "the ministry of righteousness". How much enters into that, especially where people live and trade, how much the element of righteousness is needed. It is not that it is not needed everywhere, but it is the scarcest thing on earth, practical righteousness; and so we have a ministry of righteousness, and it is towards us in effective ministry to bring out what the apostle had to say, and the apostle says it "abounds in glory"; there is substance in it. Then he returns to his great subject, that "the Lord is the Spirit", operating in this way, and "where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty". There is a condition created suitable, and then "we all", because it is in the spirit of liberty that we turn away from ourselves. I am not detained by any thought, any legitimate thought; I am able to look on Jesus. That is the idea, dear brethren, "We all, looking on the glory of the Lord, with unveiled face, are transformed according to the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Lord the Spirit". This is what the Lord is doing, but our attitude is stressed; am I able to look? Aaron and the leaders were not, they turned back. Is anyone inclined to turn away? There is a constant inclination; we are tired of the meeting, tired of the Scriptures, alas! one has to say it even of christians, turning away! But Aaron turned back and talked with him. The Lord will talk with us as we turn back, but the Lord is grieved if anyone turns away; "But we are not drawers back to perdition, but of faith to saving the soul" (Hebrews 10:39).

Now what I read in Acts will show how this works out in ministry. It is a very solemn thing that a brother who can really minister Christ should not be received, and yet it happens. The Lord says "he that receives you receives me" (Matthew 10:40). They really represent Christ; and so Paul says, "Do we need, as some, commendatory letters to you, or

commendatory from you?" (2 Corinthians 3:1). So that he turns to himself and his fellow-ministers in chapter 4, and tells us what kind of men they were, as though to say, 'We are not talking to you about the glory and yet not representing it in ourselves'. "Therefore, having this ministry, as we have had mercy shown us, we faint not. But we have rejected the hidden things of shame". Of course, all this alludes to what was at Corinth, when the apostle wrote this; you can understand what pain of heart he had; how little I know of it; where he had laboured above eighteen months, and now things are like this! Later on in his epistle it says, "His letters, he says, are weighty and strong, but his presence in the body weak, and his speech naught" (2 Corinthians 10:10). Think of a brother in that assembly saying that of the great servant of Christ! "His presence in the body weak, and his speech naught". How much is said of his speech! Such a man as this will seize anything and make the most of it to discredit the servant, and the apostle is doubtless alluding to what was amongst them. All this kind of thing is now current in christendom; thank God for those who can speak of the glory in the face of Jesus, and of that same glory in their hearts: "God ... who has shone in our hearts", he says, "for the shining forth of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. But we have this treasure in earthen vessels". One of the most beautiful things I know, "We have this treasure in earthen vessels"! Fragile, breakable, "that the surpassingness of the power may be of God"! "For", he says, "we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus Lord, and ourselves your bondmen for Jesus' sake". The very suggestion of a man preaching something of himself, like Simon Magus, making out that he was some great one; how many of us are like that! The flesh will always assert itself, but "ourselves your bondmen for Jesus'

sake"! You can understand the pleasure of heaven in that man, because he was such a reflection of Jesus. He was conscious of the treasure for it is only a man of wealth who can speak in this way, as conscious of the treasure he has.

Now Stephen follows on this thought, indeed he is the forerunner of Paul. There is no doubt the thought of glory germinated in the great servant Paul, as having seen it in Stephen, for the word 'bondman' is greater than 'apostle' in this sense. The flesh can say 'servant of the Lord', but 'servant of the saints' means I am amenable to them. They are greater than I am, viewed in this light. It may be that he saw the face of Stephen; all the council saw it. I do not know whether Paul saw his face; he saw him stoned and he saw the moral glory, if not the angelic glory, which in a sense is greater -- sufferings and glory, the moral side in the sufferings, then the glory. He held the clothes, he says to the Lord, "And when the blood of thy witness Stephen was shed, I ... kept the clothes of them who killed him" (Acts 22:20). He was present there. The Spirit of God links these together, so that that young man saw it, he was present when the moral glory shone. We have been speaking of the moral glory, perhaps some do not understand it; it is easier to see the glory of an angel than the moral glory, the moral side of the position: a brother or sister suffering for Christ's sake, suffering for the testimony, is moral glory, and that is what Saul saw. He was not stoning but he saw what happened, got a full view of it; did he ever forget it? He never did, he talked to the Lord about it. How he would feel it as he said, "I ... kept the clothes"; the first martyr, indeed! So that the Spirit of God says they in the council looked fixedly upon him, as if God would say, You must see this! The whole testimony of God was fixed on that vessel. They looked fixedly upon it; there must have been

something powerful and attractive in that young man, and he began with glory; he was taking it on. He represented what I have been speaking of, "from glory to glory". He began with angelic glory, and went on to moral glory, and then it says, "He saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God". He is a man capable of seeing it and taking it on, and with true levitical skill, he tells the people what they should have known; he says, "I behold the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing at the right hand of God". But we do not need to say everything. It is a question of what we should say, and what people see: they saw suffering and moral glory shining. It was truly with Stephen "from glory to glory".

Now just a few moments in Luke, for the scene on the mount links up with Exodus; it links on the whole domain of divine testimony, it brings in Exodus and 2 Kings 2. Now here were two men "in glory". Jesus is said, in Luke, to have become "different". It is of Himself; that could not be said of Moses and Elias, or Paul. He "became different and his raiment white and effulgent"; it was as He prayed; you do not get that anywhere else. "And as he prayed the fashion of his countenance became different". It was not taking anything on, it was from Himself. We are to understand this; so that we understand that in this line of thought He is pre-eminent. And so we are told later of Peter and those with him, "Having fully awoke up they saw his glory, and the two men who stood with him". They saw His glory, according to Luke. It is the kingdom of God; how much there is in that to attract us! The kingdom of God is seen here, the centre of which is this wonderful thing, a Man praying! It should be seen in our prayer meetings, seen in our individual prayers. How it was seen in Daniel as he prayed! the angel moved towards him;

heaven took account of that praying man, and Gabriel says, "Thou art one greatly beloved" (Daniel 9:23). Is that beyond us? No, it is what God sees in us, in our prayers. It is the kingdom of God; the prayer meeting belongs to that. It is a question of bringing the power here, the kingdom of God in the presence of evil.

So "As he prayed the fashion of his countenance became different and his raiment white and effulgent". What was there came out, the veil as it were removed, for the veil was His flesh; what was inside shone, infinitude was there: it was always there. No change in that sense, but now it shone as He prayed. A Man looking up to God! We are not told what He said. John 17 tells us what He said at one time; but it is the attitude as He prayed, the fashion of His countenance became different. He became that; it is not the idea of taking on something, it is what He was. It is the centre of the kingdom of God, it is the idea of glory shining, so that we are at the centre of the position, which is Christ, and infinitude is there, coming out in a Man in this character.

And then two men appear, Moses and Elias. Two men are mentioned and their names given. What are they talking about? Not the events of the day, but "of his departure which he was about to accomplish in Jerusalem". That is what they were talking about. It is the great power of the teaching of the death of Christ which should be accomplished at Jerusalem; where He should have been honoured, He is put to death.

Now when they were fully awake they saw His glory. It is not that I take it on now; it is not now the covenant glory, but the Person of Jesus in this attitude; not the Mediator of the covenant, but Son of God. "There came a cloud and overshadowed them ... and there was a voice out of the cloud saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him". That

is another feature of the kingdom, hearing Jesus. The veil is removed and the glory shines; then there is the announcement from heaven as to who He is, and the Person to be listened to. That is the position now, and it enters into the whole period of christianity. "Hear him", whatever He is saying, and He is saying much by the Spirit. The point is that we are in the presence of the glory, as Peter says in the epistle, "the excellent glory". What a change had come over Peter! Time brings about changes for good or ill; time had changed Peter, he speaks of the "excellent glory", and says, "having been eyewitnesses of his majesty" (2 Peter 1:17,16).

That is what was before me, dear brethren. May the Lord bless His word.

GOD'S MIND AS CONVEYED IN THE WORD

Hebrews 4:12,13; Hebrews 5:13,14; 2 Corinthians 5:19; 1 Corinthians 1:18; 1 John 1:1

J.T. It is in mind that the expression 'word' employed in a characteristic way of persons and things involves the mind of the Person, such as the "Word of God". It also involves the intelligent setting forth of things, having in view the mind and thoughts governing the things dealt with so that the intelligence should be readily received. The word is obviously an allusion to our minds, the word of God being a great general thought reaching up to a title of Christ Himself, and in one of the passages before us reaching up to God Himself. The word of righteousness would be the mind of God in relation to that feature, and so in regard to reconciliation and the cross, as also in reference to life. The truth involved is extensive and therefore we can only allot a limited time to each point. It is manifest that the word of God is the great governing thought in the subject. It widens out to everything that He would convey to us, and as it involves Himself (the Father, the Son and the Spirit at one time) it searches us, as is stated. It is of particular importance now; it always has been, but especially now in view of the great activity of man's mind. It is of all importance that we should have God's mind before us for its own sake, as well as giving us an understanding of everything. It is the disclosure of His mind.

Ques. Would that be generally indicated from the Scriptures?

J.T. Yes, the Scriptures give a full account of what God would have us to know, and thus form the basis of God's mind for us. The Spirit being here there is a constant enlargement as to the things spoken of in Scripture, so that we may have the word of God at any time, ministered by the Spirit.

W.F. Does it imply a living voice?

J.T. It does; it is a voice, of course. A voice in itself does not necessarily instruct the mind; it calls attention. It is in the word 'word', that we have what affects the mind.

W.F. The setting of it seems to be in relation to "those who had not hearkened to the word", like Israel in the desert.

J.T. Yes. In connection with God's ways in the desert beginning at Sinai particularly, the sound was of importance. The same thing applies to our own dispensation: there was the sound "as of a violent impetuous blowing", and it "filled all the house" (Acts 2:2). The word is the communication of God's mind. It is by writing too, but the idea of the word is what enters the ear; the ear refers to the understanding, that which is instructed.

E.L.M. Would the expression itself be a little wider than in its application to the Lord as the Word of God? Would there be a wider bearing of it indicating the mind?

J.T. You say you make a distinction between what it is as a title applied to the Lord, and what it is as ministered, is that what I understand?

E.L.M. Yes, whether it might have a little wider bearing in some instances than strictly as a title attaching to Christ?

J.T. The title as attaching to Christ would involve all that God has to say, and all that would come out through Him as become Man and thus qualified to unfold the mind of God. The question is whether we might speak of anything going beyond what He unfolded; we read that "by faith we apprehend that the worlds were framed by the word of God" (Hebrews 11:3); that would be the widest possible application of it. It is not only world, but worlds. We must conclude that that came under Christ in some sense, but as to christianity and the Old Testament

the term certainly alludes to what came out through Him. John connects the title with Him, saying, "In the beginning was the Word", alluding to His Person. Luke 1 says "Those who from the beginning were eye-witnesses of and attendants on the Word". Luke alluded directly to the Lord speaking. He became known in that way, and I apprehend it is from the same point of view that he alludes to Him according to the way He had served here, the Word conveying the mind of God. It appears to me that we ought to accept in a general way that what has come out from God is through Christ; it has come out in a mediatorial sense in One who is capable, as being Himself God, of knowing the mind of God.

W.L-b. Was it not in connection with the creation that it is said "For he spoke, and it was done" (Psalm 33:9)?

J.T. That is what I understand. "Without him not one thing received being which has received being" (John 1:3), so that we have to attribute all to Him.

E.L.M. I was not thinking simply of the blessed Lord but of everything in detail, and whether any communication as expressed on the part of God might be the word of God at any given moment, having in mind the expression "to whom the word of God came" (John 10:35).

J.T. You have in your mind the immediate vessel that may be employed, the immediate mouth through which the thing comes; is that your thought?

E.L.M. I meant the thing itself, not so much the mind, but the communication at any given moment of the mind of God. I wondered whether that might be covered by the expression, "the word of God".

J.T. It can be; that is what we ought to keep before us, only that we cannot say it is not from Christ, even if He uses vessels. We see in a general

way that the Logos is Christ, and that the article is generally before it, and always before it when it is applied to Him, which I believe involves the double thought, not simply characteristically that, but that the double thing is there, as if all came out that way.

W.F. Is that the beginning of Hebrews, "God ... at the end of these days has spoken to us in the person of the Son"?

J.T. Quite so; that is over against the prophets. He had spoken to the fathers by the prophets, but the point is that God has spoken "in Son" now, and whether we should not in a wider sense connect all the speaking with Him, as able to communicate, and alone able to communicate, the mind of God.

A.N. Do you mean that if we are to have the truth about anything referred to in the Scriptures, whether as to righteousness, or the cross, or life, that there is the communication of the mind of God in respect of all these things, but that the whole truth is covered in Christ personally?

J.T. Yes, I think the Logos would cover the whole mind of God.

J.T.S. Did you say that in Hebrews 4 the word of God reaches up to God Himself? Would the great gain of hearkening to the word in that setting be that it would bring us into the presence of God where everything is naked and laid bare?

J.T. That is what I had in mind; it is formally seen under the heading of, the Word, or the Logos, in Christ, and of course Christ is God, and it thus reaches up to God Himself. From the standpoint of our hearing it is that we are searched through and through: "All things are naked and laid bare to his eyes, with whom we have to do".

J.T.S. So you consider that if we became habituated to this we would learn to love it, so that we would say, "Search me, O God" (Psalm 139:23).

J.T. That is the way we would like it to work; one hopes that by our looking at it in this way it will come to that more than ever before. There is the great possibility of having the mind of God about everything, hearing what He has to say. He has to say to everything, and how He speaks of things! He speaks of them in relation to our intelligence, taking account of our limitations, our minds, and speaking accordingly, but then He has given us of His Spirit "that we may know the things which have been freely given to us of God" (1 Corinthians 2:12). We have the power in the Spirit for that. It says, "We have the mind of Christ"; that is an immense thing, the power of thinking as He thinks, to take in and to be formed in our minds as to all the things of God. What can be more obvious than that it should be before us to have the mind of God about things?

A.N. That would be what the prophet referred to, "Thy words were found, and I did eat them" (Jeremiah 15:16); thus they become part of us.

T.T. Paul says, "They that were with me ... heard not the voice of him that was speaking to me", (Acts 22:9). They apparently heard the sound, but it was not the word of God to them.

J.T. They did not hear the words.

W.T. Does Romans 3:2 bear upon our subject, where Paul is enjoining the gentiles to have the oracles of God which were committed to His earthly people?

J.T. He records how they had the oracles of God; how much more so ourselves! That leads us to Hebrews 5 where the writer has in mind "the elements", as he says in verse 12, "of the beginning of the oracles of God". Then in chapter 6:1, "Wherefore, leaving the word of the beginning of the Christ, let us go on to what belongs to full growth, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and faith in God"; he is dealing with the

Jews, the Jewish christians. They had the oracles of God as they are seen in the Old Testament, but they had fallen very low and needed to be taught again, as he says "Ye have again need that one should teach you what are the elements of the beginning of the oracles of God"; that is they had to begin over again. The oracles of God now refer to the great things of christianity, of which the Old Testament generally is figurative, but written for us so that we are to embrace the Old Testament in looking into the oracles of God, and the word of righteousness, which is what is before us. It says "everyone that partakes of milk is unskilled", and speaks of "good and evil". Attention is thus called to these elements which are the very fundamental elements of the beginning of the oracles of God.

A.H.G. Are you referring to the Old Testament now?

J.T. Yes; that would be included for the Jews had these things, but then Christ had come in and everything had taken form. We can only understand the Old Testament by the presence of the Logos. It is only by Christ that we can understand "The Word". Christ had already come in, and now it was for them to be instructed. The word of righteousness alludes to Christ and His death, but the Old Testament is certainly in mind; it is part of the oracles of God, but unintelligible except by Christ, so that "having begun from Moses and from all the prophets, he interpreted to them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself" (Luke 24:27). It is His exposition that makes the Old Testament intelligible to us. Of course the Spirit is here, and He-comes in grace into the mediatorial system, and all is connected with Christ.

A.H.G. So that an intelligent understanding of the Old Testament scriptures would lead up to what Christ brought in.

J.T. They are essential; they were in mind, the new creation was in mind, but there would be no understanding of them by us apart from the Word, the Logos, meaning that Christ is the mind of God.

W.S.S. Would the same remark apply to every word of ministry? That is to say the word of ministry would bring Christ livingly before the saints in regard to the particular aspect of the word which the ministry had in view.

J.T. And really it is by Him, for if you minister, all the ministry is by Christ. Peter said, "In which also going he preached to the spirits which are in prison" (1 Peter 3:19), referring to the Old Testament. The Spirit of Christ was the Spirit of grace, the title "the Word" involves all that, then "coming, he has preached the glad tidings of peace to you who were afar off" (Ephesians 2:17).

E.B.G. Is the thought that in the Old Testament everything pointed on to Christ and found its centre in Him, while in christianity everything radiates from Him, so that any speaking today would be the filling out of what was in Christ personally?

J.T. Exactly, the Old Testament is like the light thrown backward, it is really from the same Christ, only He had not as yet taken form. He had not taken the form to which the term Logos belonged, but the speaking was there.

W.F. In Hebrews 6:1 it speaks of "the word of the beginning of the Christ". What is the connection of that with what we are speaking of?

J.T. It is running on from this same subject: "Leaving the word of the beginning of the Christ, let us go on to what belongs to full growth". All that was really in the Old Testament only it came into the New; the Lord Jesus came into all that, and He had to do with all that. He had to do with it anticipatively; it was Christ that preached through Noah;

it was His Spirit looking on to His incarnation, and operating in man, for the Spirit of Christ was the Spirit of a Man.

J.T.S. Would you help us as to the difference between the babe state as "unskilled in the word of righteousness" and what belongs to the full-grown man?

J.T. I think the allusion is to the state of things among the Jews, christian Jews had dropped down to the level of the Old Testament. They were gradually giving up the distinctive features of christianity. The Old Testament is not viewed as one thing and christianity as another, for the Old Testament is involved in the whole scheme of divine teaching. The writer is treating them in that way, just as we treat christians today, for the great general weakness is in the want of teaching. There is a retrogression, we may say, to Old Testament ground. It is not to be repudiated but it is an extremely low state of things, so that the direct application of the passage now is to lead the saints from the babe stage, which is a state formed by a christianity which is current and which is really spurious. It is not the full truth of the word of God and we need this instruction, so that we should go on. The point is to go on to full growth and that is in Christ, the full height of christianity.

We have to admit that the babe state is very prevalent. So it speaks of babes or infants, and if we compare it with Galatians 4 we see that they were kept under tutors and governors; that is the nursery condition of things, but christianity has come, the fulness of time has come, and the Jews had lapsed back from whence they had come, so the writer is seeking to bring them on to the full ground of christianity.

E.T.S. How does the word of righteousness bring that about?

J.T. I think it is the opening up of the gospel. I daresay we might speak of the epistle to the Romans as a sort of general amplification of the word of righteousness, what came out in the way of righteousness. Righteousness did not belong to the earlier elements, what they had in the Old Testament; but everything must be learned in that way, so that "having begun from Moses and from all the prophets, he interpreted to them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself" (Luke 24:27). Everything is to be seen and learned in Christ; the Old Testament cannot be understood otherwise.

E.L.M. "Having begun from Moses" I judge then would cover the whole of the five books of the Pentateuch, so that our thoughts as to creation would be placed in relation to Christ?

J.T. I think that is right, provided we keep clearly in mind that all that came out (of course the creation refers to Him as God) through Him as the Logos refers to Him as Man. If others spoke before, it was by His Spirit, the Spirit of Christ as Man operating in man before He became Man; we can understand that.

W.L-b. Would you say that in the Old Testament God was educating mankind in view of the coming in of Christ, and it was like an elementary school in view of what God would further bring in?

J.T. I think that is a good way to put it. It was just an elementary school, but the Spirit of adoption not being there they could never lay hold of the divine ideal in sonship. The word itself was there; I suppose Moses could be said to have reached it as much as any, and yet he could not have been said to be out of the nursery; they were kept under tutors, the whole position had that character, until the time appointed by the Father. Until faith came, they were kept under tutors but "when the fulness of time was come, God sent forth his Son, come of woman,

come under law" (Galatians 4:4), the Lord came into all that as coming in among the Jews, and everything attached to Him; everything became intelligible to faith, He gave it a spiritual import.

W.L-b. Would the word of righteousness be as far as God could take the people in the Old Testament?

J.T. It is to be questioned as to whether it was that in the full sense. The article in all these cases conveys the full thought of the thing. Christianity is developed, so that whatever we get now involves the whole matter. You could not get that in the Old Testament.

W.S.S. Would the thought here be that the saints are to be skilful in the word of righteousness?

J.T. Yes, it is the word, the whole thing that is in mind.

W.S.S. I had in mind that the writer of the epistle says in regard to the Lord that he has much to say about Him in His Melchisedec character, but there is need of a state in the saints of skilfulness in the word of righteousness that they may take in the ministry as to His Person.

J.T. They really had lapsed back to Jewish ground, as christians have today, hence the importance of this.

Ques. Are you suggesting that the Old Testament only deals with what is elementary?

J.T. It was all elementary as to the state of the persons addressed; they could not take in the word of righteousness. As to the state of the people they were in the nursery: redemption was not accomplished and the Spirit of God had not come; they could not understand the thing.

J.T.S. Would the word in Romans 1:16,17 support what you are saying, "I am not ashamed of the glad tidings; for it is God's power to salvation, to every one that believes, both to Jew first and to Greek:

for righteousness of God is revealed therein"? Would that help?

J.T. Yes, I am glad you mention that because that is the idea, the double idea is in the mind in the article, the word of righteousness; the whole thought is there which of course the Old Testament could not furnish; it was written in such form as could only be intelligible to us, to christians.

T.T. The Lord says in Luke 8:11, "The seed is the word of God". Could there have been any seed apart from Christ?

J.T. Everything hinged on the coming in of Christ, but God could act anticipatively; that is what we should pay attention to, that the Spirit of Christ was operating before as well as after, only not before as an indwelling Spirit, for John 7:39 says expressly that "the Spirit was not yet, because Jesus had not yet been glorified", but He operated; the Spirit of Christ as He is seen in the gospels, operated before.

A.H.G. Would this thought of righteousness be the first great basic principle that the word of God would establish?

J.T. You feel how essential the word of righteousness is now, and how many are unskilled in it. When a matter comes up to be decided, how few of us are able to render a judgment, and how readily we are carried away with what is contrary to the word of righteousness. It is because of our being unskilled in it; it is a matter now of our senses being exercised to know it and be skilled in it.

W.P. Is the word of righteousness the whole body of doctrine connected with righteousness?

J.T. It would include that, but then doctrine itself will not do. You want the spirit of the thing; the Spirit instructing us inwardly to be skilled in it, to the exercise of our senses, to see how it is applied. You might be skilled in the doctrine and yet not have

the skill of the word of righteousness. I do not think anyone could be skilled in the word of righteousness unless he has the Spirit and knows redemption.

E.B.G. Does the thought of the word of God suggest very fine discernment and penetration? In our first scripture it is "living and operative" and "sharper than any two-edged sword". It divides between soul and spirit. In Ephesians 6 it speaks of the sword of the Spirit which is the word of God, and in Revelation 19 we read of One whose "name is called The Word of God", and out of His mouth goes a sharp two-edged sword. Do these passages indicate that fine division and discernment are connected with the word of God?

J.T. How essential each thought of the word of God is. In the Old Testament it says, "Man's spirit is the lamp of Jehovah, searching all the inward parts of the belly" (Proverbs 20:27). That is what He did then, but to us the word now in the power of the Holy Spirit searches out everything, not only as light, but it is "living and operative" and distinguishes things inwardly so that we are not baffled as to feelings and motives, but are able to judge as to what is governing us.

J.C.M.W. Is it in that way that man is brought into being as intelligent as to the mind of God, capable of expressing skill in the word of righteousness?

J.T. Just so, the spirit of a man is the lamp of Jehovah. God is "the Father of spirits" (Hebrews 12:9), a remarkable word, and all His discipline with us is to bring us on to this line, that we might get His mind.

A.H.G. Would it be right to say that all that God effects in us morally is by way of the application of the word?

J.T. It is a question of His mind. What a great thing it is to get the mind of God; He is ready to

impart it to us about everything; but we have to begin at the bottom, and that is with the word of righteousness.

W.L-b. Does it first of all put us right inwardly, and then skilfulness is seen in the way we can handle the word in ministry and in the Lord's service and in having to do with others?

J.T. Quite so, skilful in it. You feel that the word of God is the first thing in imparting the sense that you have had to do with God and He knows all about you; that is really what happens when God impresses you with the importance of the fact that we have to do with Him. There is the great moral basis. Then these details, the word of righteousness, the word of reconciliation, the word of the cross, the word of life, the word of faith, and every such expression is that God would make us intelligent as to every item. I believe that is the way it works with us.

A.N. That would be set forth in 1 Corinthians 15:34 where the state of the Corinthians was such that the apostle said "Awake up righteously, and sin not; for some are ignorant of God". The word of God would have put them right.

J.T. Quite so. You feel that God speaks to you, His word comes to you and you feel you have to do with God, and that "all things are naked and laid bare to his eyes, with whom we have to do". The next thing is to be built up in the different items of the truth, that is to say the truth of God revealed, and the first great thing is righteousness, so that the gospel, as has been remarked, is unfolded. The righteousness of God is unfolded in it.

W.S.S. I was thinking that the distinction made between the doctrine and the word should help us. I have in mind what is said in 2 Corinthians 5:18,19 where the apostle says that the ministry of reconciliation had been given to him, and that the word of reconciliation

had been put into him. Does that help in connection with the distinction?

J.T. The word is given to Paul. The passage runs, "God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, not reckoning to them their offences; and putting in us the word of that reconciliation", that is, you have two thoughts as to Paul, first that he was given the ministry of it, that is at the end of verse 18, then in the end of verse 19 the word of reconciliation is put into him, which was the consequence. He says, "We are ambassadors therefore for Christ, God as it were beseeching by us". So that he had two things, the ministry, which is an official thought, and the word of it which was put into him. There is the mind of God declared as to it, and the apostle is specially qualified to unfold the word of reconciliation. Now the saints need that in their minds, to know that they are reconciled, what the thing really is. We use the word, but what is it, what do we understand by it? It would appear that Paul alone was qualified to unfold it; the ministry of it was given to him and the word was put into him.

W.S.S. What I had in mind was whether the putting into him of the word of reconciliation would give us the further thought, that it was livingly in him; it was not merely the teaching in connection with reconciliation, but what he knew livingly in his own soul.

J.T. Exactly. He had the ministry of it, which is official as you might say, referring to administration, but the word of it was his power to unfold it.

W.S.S. So that while this applies especially to the apostle, the principle would apply to us.

J.T. If a brother intends to minister the truth of reconciliation he requires to know it; apparently the apostle had it in a very special way in order that it should be made clear.

J.T.S. What is the truth of reconciliation?

J.T. It is that we are taken up in Christ, in divine complacency. The word of it is to be taken into our souls by faith, and it is to be understood. I see how I am taken up in Christ through redemption in complacency, that abstractly I am perfectly delightful to God through the work of Christ; it is a basic thought, not a question of formation, but what God has effected. It is a matter for the preaching.

W.F. Does it follow the word of the cross in the first epistle?

J.T. It would involve that. The word of the cross helps you to deal with what is contrary to it, but it is a great matter to have the idea of reconciliation as a basic thought in the soul, that God takes us up in complacency and that He will operate in us and by us from that point of view. He is dealing with material that is acceptable and pleasing to Him.

E.L.M. Is the idea suggested in its completeness in that sense, the word of reconciliation, not the thought of formation but the abstract thought of the word of God in its completeness?

J.T. Yes. The word, the ministry of it, is official, and implies that Paul had it in an authoritative way. If anyone were concerned about it the answer would be, 'You must go to Paul'. We have to go to Paul for many things, amongst them this great matter and also the ministry of the assembly. It is not only that he has the authority but also the power to deal with it in the word being in him. It is said in Galatians that God had revealed His Son in him, and so here the word of reconciliation in him gives him authority to deal with it; the full thought is now out.

F.I. Is the same principle seen in regard to the young men in 1 John 2? The word of God abides in them, and they have overcome the wicked one; the word of God abiding in them is the source of power.

J.T. The word of righteousness put into the apostle is his ability to unfold the thing, to make it intelligible to men, so that he is an ambassador fully furnished to make the thing known.

W.F.S. Would it be an expression of the thing itself?

J.T. It is an expression and presented in such ability by the one who knows it that it is intelligible to men; hence we get it from Paul.

J.P. How do you distinguish between the word of righteousness and the word of reconciliation?

J.T. Righteousness is the first thing, and reconciliation follows on righteousness: "for righteousness of God is revealed therein, on the principle of faith, to faith" (Romans 1:17); the gospel is the power of God to salvation because it discloses this great matter of righteousness, and of course we have to work it out as we see in Romans; then reconciliation is mentioned in Romans 5, "through whom now we have received the reconciliation", that is, through Christ. It is a further thought, and comes in after it is understood that "the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit". We feel that as having the love of God in our hearts we shall be able to take in the great thought of being pleasing to God, and this is applicable to every believer. So we are asked to "be reconciled to God" (2 Corinthians 5:20).

J.T.S. Does the place that reconciliation has in Colossians 1 indicate that it is something further than the word of righteousness?

J.T. Quite so, there is the Godhead, or we might say the "fulness". Colossians 1:19 in the New Translation puts in "the Godhead" to give the sense, but the thought is in Him all the fulness was pleased to dwell, and then it goes on to say He has reconciled everything in Christ: "And you ... has it reconciled in the body of his flesh through death; to

present you holy and unblamable and irreproachable before it".

J.C. Does the word of reconciliation mean the knowledge in our souls of what has been effected in the death of Christ, so that there might be a formative work in our souls under the new covenant?

J.T. It is the thing by itself, but it is a basic thought, and furnishes God with material pleasing to Him in what He is doing.

W.S.S. I think it is helpful to notice that all the references to reconciliation stand related to God. It is to God, and His pleasure is in view.

J.T. It is a blessed thing to have the sense that God is pleased with you through Christ; He is pleased with you personally; that is the idea of "we have received the reconciliation".

Ques. In what way do we "become God's righteousness in him"?

J.T. That is a very fine thought, not simply that we are righteous before God, but we are His righteousness. That is how we are to be presented by and by. It is already true to faith, but God will say 'Look at all this vast system of blessing brought in and established in the saints who form the assembly; it is not only that they are constituted righteous, but they are My righteousness'.

Ques. Does it stand relative to reconciliation and the ministry of it?

J.T. I think it does. God can confer it, for righteousness is a question of His rights. He has a right to do this and He does it in consistency with His own majesty.

Rem. If this is known in the soul complacency can be enjoyed.

A.N. Do you think it is illustrated in the spies? Ten of the spies raised difficulties about the land, but Joshua and Caleb said, "If Jehovah delight in us, he will bring us into this land" (Numbers 14:8). There

had been previous proofs of God's intervention on their behalf, but when it was a question of entering into the land that is His purpose and it is "If Jehovah delight in us".

J.T. Very good, so that the thought which is the basis of it was there in the Old Testament. God loved the people and delighted in them, and how could He delight in them save in anticipating Christ become man? Christ has come in so that we can see how applicable it is to the saints today, and what a delight it is to God to have material that pleases him, and for us to have the sense that God is pleased with us.

E.B.G. As the time available is running out will you say a few words on your concluding points, the word of the cross, and the word of life?

J.T. The teaching of the cross is the most drastic of the truths we have been dealing with; because it is God operating and turning the crucifixion of Christ round and making it apply to man in his wicked condition. Christ crucified is the expression of God's judgment on man, "Cursed is every one hanged upon a tree" (Galatians 3:13). Every one of us deserves the curse, but God makes it fall on Him who did not deserve it. Those that crucified Him deserved it, but God's judgment of them and of all of us was expressed there. It is a most drastic thought, because it involves the cross, and the word of it here (notice that the footnote says 'the word, logos, which speaks of the cross' ) is to bring out the way the thing is to be spoken of; it is "to them that perish foolishness, but to us that are saved it is God's power". It refers to persons who are characteristically saved, or being saved. If I accept the word of God, the word of righteousness and the word of reconciliation I shall accept the cross. It is a most drastic thing; the truth of the cross is the power of God to persons who are being saved, "are saved" is not final, but a

process rather, as the original means. Anyone going on in that way is ready for the worst judgment of himself. He says, 'I am worse than I have known myself to be before. Through the word of the cross, I have come to see how utterly mean I am, and nothing less than the curse of God could meet it'.

W.S.S. I believe the passage may also be rendered 'the import of the cross', as apprehended in my soul and bearing upon me.

J.T. We see how we are being saved; we learn the judgment of God in its full bearing as effected in the death of Christ.

W.S.S. The Corinthians were in danger of losing the gain of their salvation, and needed this word especially. The flesh had a great place with them.

J.T. Man in his glory in this world had a great place with them.

Ques. Do we need to be maintained in the intelligence and apprehension of this word?

J.T. Paul determined that it was what the Corinthians needed. He was with them so long, and it is remarkable that it is only as in the town or city of Corinth that he gets his lead from the Lord. He seemed to gather up what was needed. The Lord had spoken to him about Corinth and the peculiar exercises of the place and eventually the Spirit of God helped him to stress the cross, as meeting the worldliness and recognition of man in the flesh.

J.T.S. Does the place which the word of the cross has both in the Corinthian and Galatian epistles indicate that it will meet the conditions in those places, and also like conditions amongst ourselves? Is it especially needed now when man is so much in evidence?

J.T. It is needed at all times, but particularly now when the man who is developed through learning is made so much of. We find it in Romans, in Corinthians, in Colossians and Ephesians, so that the

power of it runs right through and the saved ones (those who are characteristically saved) are the ones that value it; it is the power of God to them.

J.C.M.W. In what sense is it the power of God?

J.T. The word of the cross brought home to us in the power of the Spirit helps us. It is in a moral sense, of course, the Spirit is the dynamic power, but then there is moral power. We view things on moral grounds; that is the idea of the word of the cross.

W.L-b. Does the word of the cross deal with our relations with the world, as providing an exit from the world?

J.T. Quite so, "Through whom the world is crucified unto me, and I to the world" (Galatians 6:14).

J.C.M.W. Would you say that it is the final expression of God to the world?

J.T. It is His judgment of what man is. Golgotha, or the "Place of a skull", is a derisive thought. It has in view the principles of this world, the great leaders of this world; what it all comes to, the "place of a skull". The word of the cross brings all that out, and if we are going on in salvation we are glad of it, it is moral power in our souls to see that this is the mind of God about us.

E.B.G. In order to get the gain of these thoughts is it necessary to place ourselves under the searchings to which you alluded at the beginning of the meeting, especially in relation to the cross?

J.T. That is what I thought. You feel that God is speaking to you and you invite this drastic thought, that I am only deserving of the curse, that I am so utterly mean in the presence of God. I am judging in myself that only this truth can meet it.

W.S.S. Would it be right to say that only on that ground can there be the word of life?

J.T. That is what I thought. Life would finish the subject. John's epistle is that. I suppose we might say John's epistle is the word of life as Romans

is the word of righteousness. There is not time to proceed further, but it is for us to follow it up if we are exercised about it. If we want to get the word of life, John's epistle begins with it, it is the opening thought, and runs right through the epistle. The end is reached in chapter 5, where Christ is said to be "the true God and eternal life".

NORMAL CHRISTIAN PROGRESS

John 1:16,17; Psalm 84:5 - 7; 2 Corinthians 3:18

I have selected these verses to make some remarks as to normal christian progress. Progression spiritually is to mark believers. It is not that there is progression in christianity; the christianity itself into which we have come is what is from the beginning. What we come into is what is from the beginning, and it was a completed thought before we came into it, so that there is no development in the thing itself. It was a perfected idea set up here into which men were to come, and in which they were to grow. Progression therefore applies to the believer as coming into it, and that goes on whilst he is in the body, in the present condition. No one can say that he has already reached the fulness of it. He who perhaps reached it more than any spoke in this way, that he did not account himself to have "already obtained" or to be "already perfected", but he pursued "looking towards the goal, for the prize of the calling on high of God in Christ Jesus" (Philippians 3:14). The road therefore on which the believer enters is in that direction and leads to the calling on high in Christ Jesus. The believer progresses in that way and it is normal that he should. Anything else is abnormal. Normally that is the divine thought for us; and so I have selected these scriptures, one in the Psalms pointing to the strength, going "from strength to strength"; and that in 2 Corinthians 3, "glory to glory", without giving any limit in either case. I know full well that with everyone here, even with the apostle himself when here, at the outset it is not just so. Our experiences generally are irregular or undulating, as I may call them; that is, up and down, more down than up, indeed! The types assumed that; although it says that there was not one weak amongst Israel as they came out of Egypt,

for the process of coming out of Egypt is in itself strengthening. One emerging according to the spiritual, of course, is strong, as we get in the Acts and in the gospels: how persons coming under the power of God and affected by it were strong. The ankle bones of a lame man were made strong, so that he walked and leaped and praised God. Walking is one strength and leaping is another and praising God is another; there is definite progress at the very start and it is to continue, so that the believer's part in progress is certainly very attractive. As Scripture presents it, it is very attractive. No one should be at all ashamed of it in presenting it to men, women and children. It is a glorious matter. But, as I said, the young believer as a rule has ups and downs, and more downs than ups; but in all that, he is learning and brought into, as the types show, a remarkable system of things, a system that takes account of that very fact, for in the type which suggests the reception of the Spirit, or at least the gift of the Spirit from the divine side, in Exodus 17, the battle of Rephidim was an up and down matter, and it alludes to the daily experience of the young believer. God graciously furnishes us with that at the outset in the types so that no young christian should become weary and fall out, but go on. Hence as Moses' hands were heavy and were let down, Amalek prevailed, as if Israel could not help it. It was a question of Moses' support, and intercession, that is, that kind of thing. It is not that Christ's hands become weak at all; it is a question of the system into which we are brought as set up here in responsibility. Although weakness is there, as we go on, as the exigencies arise they are met; so that as Moses' hands grew heavy he was put on a stone and he sat thereon and his hands were upheld by Aaron and Hur, and Amalek was defeated. It is in that battle that young believers come to see that they can really gain a victory, and it is a

great stimulant when you gain one victory; you gain another. You go from strength to strength; you go from that strength to the next necessary strength. But, as I said, it is undulating until the Spirit is received definitely; for whilst at the outset we talk about the Spirit, that we have the Spirit as believers, we have not learned how incorrigible the flesh is, and it takes a long time to come to that. It took Israel forty years. They learned the lesson of the brazen serpent and the springing well. That is a matter of digging under the direction of the lawgiver, for the real difficulty is that we do not recognise the lawgiver; that is, we allow our will. He is the best friend we have. The digging is at the direction of the lawgiver, and then the complete result is the springing well. They recognise it and sing unto it. It is not indeed left out of the service of God, for they sang there. They sang in Exodus 15, but they sang at the springing well. That is, they go from strength to strength, from one point to another, until they reach Pisgah where the whole position is in view; as if you would say, 'What a God He has been to me as I look back on my history; Canaan is now my prospect, the calling on high of God in Christ Jesus'.

Well now, having made these remarks, I come to the first of John because this verse, referring to the setting of it (the preceding verses including this) speaks of the system inaugurated by the incarnation of Christ. I do not say immediately by His birth, but as John presents it, "The Word became flesh, and dwelt among us". It is not a babe he is speaking of; it includes the babyhood of Christ, speaking reverently; but it is Christ, the Word become flesh, viewed in that way and dwelling among us. How attractive the thing is, dwelling among us, one like Jesus dwelling among us! Were one living in Capernaum in those days he might see the Lord; He lived there day in and day out. What grace shone!

How attractive He must have been as His neighbours saw Him! Yet He is the Lord of glory and can we doubt that the glory was shining as He came under their view? "Dwelt among us", and certain ones say, "And we have contemplated his glory", as if in a parenthetical way. It is not part of the main writing. It is to show that some anyway thought of Him and stood and looked on Him, for the word 'contemplate' is not simply a casual glance; it is an interested person occupied with this Person who comes before his view. So they say, "We have contemplated his glory". They had an eye for glory, but it was His glory, and He is described. It is an important matter in telling about Christ to be able to describe and put it into language or figures, for after all language has that character, phrases and the like, to put your thoughts into such form that they are intelligible. "An only-begotten with a father" is quite a simple thought, and that is how He is presented here; "An only-begotten with a father, full of grace and truth". What He was to the Father, or in that relation between His Father and Himself, the glory that was seen was the reciprocal affection between the Father and the Son. That was what they saw; that was what they contemplated. But what John is coming to as a practical thing, as bearing on the need of men here, is grace and truth. Men generally are not equal to beholding the glory of the reciprocal affection between God as Father, and the Son. That is a matter of progress. What men generally need is grace and truth, and it was there. It was there in full measure, as if there was nothing else there. It is not that there was not something else there; there was the glory radiating of the affections proper between a father and an only-begotten, but grace and truth were there. It is one idea; it was there in full measure because it was the urgent need, and is the urgent need of the moment, grace and truth. It was there in full measure

sure. He was full of it. Anyone meeting the Lord in those days would find that out. The greater your need of grace the more it is there, the more it is shown to you, as in many cases that one could cite. It was grace first for that is what man needs. Truth will not do at first. He needs first grace and then truth. It is a question of the dispensation and the wisdom of the dispensation, and how this glorious Person was there full of the thing. It was so essential. And then John's witness is brought in, John the Baptist, and he goes on to say, that is, John the apostle says, "Of his fulness we all have received". Of His fulness! Well, you say, 'That is the grace'. It is not just exactly the grace; it is an addition. It is not simply, 'fulness, grace upon grace', but "and grace upon grace". That is what is needed. The fulness is more than that, of course. The glorious radiation of the affection between a father and an only-begotten is more than that, but the grace and truth are seen in Christ in full measure. It is a great thought as meeting the need of what He came into. Then receiving the thing, those who contemplate the glory receive the grace. It is not so easy to receive as we are apt to think. Reception, we are to be fitted for it. Those that contemplate the glory receive the grace, and they say, "and grace upon grace". Now that is what I wanted to make clear at first, so that we see how the going on from strength to strength and glory to glory is possible, so that there should be here steady progress, as I said, from strength to strength and glory to glory, no undulation but steady progress in the believer. And so as to fortify us further, the writer in this verse goes on to say that "the law was given by Moses". It is not that it is abrogated, but it came by Moses. "Grace and truth [it is one idea] subsists [not 'in' but] through Jesus Christ". He is full of grace and truth; but now He has effected such a thing as that, and

made it a great principle in the moral universe. That is the idea. I want to encourage you beloved young people here with what you have come into as christians. It is not simply what is in His Person, but what He has brought into being and set up as an integral part of the whole moral scheme. He has effected it. It is as essential to us as air is to the physical system. Light is essential, and air and food and water are essential to the physical system. It is just as essential in the system into which we have been brought, as air in the present system with which we have to do. We cannot subsist without grace and truth, and what is stated is that the Lord Jesus has effected that. It is through Him. It is an instrumental thought, as it is said at the beginning, "All things received being through him, and without him not one thing received being which has received being". So in the moral system He has brought this into being. "Grace and truth", it is one idea, is brought into being by the Lord Jesus Christ and there it is. You come into it. Those who saw the glory said, 'We have received the grace'. If you see the glory you say, 'I must receive the grace; I cannot stand in the presence of it without the grace'. And then it is "grace upon grace" all the time. It is not one grace finally; it is not one transaction lasting for ever; it is a continuous thing. It is grace upon grace, one wave after another coming in as needed, that is from the divine side. So you can see how possible this progress is. Whatever the need for the moment there is grace for it. It is not simply the great principle of grace and truth set up, but there is grace for my particular need whatever it is. It comes in like waves in the ocean, one after another, never ending, "grace upon grace". No one needs to be overtaken or overwhelmed. Whatever the need there is grace to meet it, one grace after another.

Well, having said that, dear friends, I would go on to the psalm. It is, as no doubt many of you have noticed, one of the psalms of the sons of Korah, and it links on with what I am speaking of. It is a psalm dealing with the mercy of God. It is "to the chief Musician", a psalm "of the sons of Korah". The Spirit of God prefixes these titles to the psalms. There is no part of Scripture more interesting than the Psalms, and perhaps no part less understood by the people of God, including, one would say humbly, oneself. But one is seeking to get on with the wealth of the Psalms and their counterpart in the New Testament. I think the Lord is in this too. This feature of Scripture greatly strengthens saints in what I am speaking of as involved in normal christianity, in the progress that is proper to it. We are enjoined to be "speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and chanting with your heart", not simply to an air or a tune, but "to the Lord" (Ephesians 5:19). You must have a tune of course. The fact that it is "to the chief Musician" would remind us that tunes must be used, and suitable ones too. Sometimes what would be really edifying in the assembly is marred by the tune someone rashly starts. We must recognise the chief Musician. The more spiritual the contributions are in the Old Testament, the more the chief Musician is recognised. The readiness with which tunes are started would rather suggest that the chief Musician has not been thought of at all. This one is "to the chief Musician". Habakkuk's remarkable contribution to the service of God is developed out of discipline. A man that can say in the face of difficulty, 'This happened for discipline; this happened for correction', will gain; he will be a contributor to the service of God. He said at the end "Though the fig-tree shall not blossom, neither shall fruit be in the vines; the labour of the olive-tree shall fail, and the fields shall yield no food

... yet I will rejoice in Jehovah, I will joy in the God of my salvation". Then he goes on to talk of the high places in which God would cause him to walk, and what he affords the service of God is assigned "To the chief Musician". He has got a high note. He knows the value of what he has, and he wants to put it in good hands, recognising the chief Musician. There can be no harmony or real edifying in singing aside from the chief Musician. It was a psalm to the chief Musician with a certain instrument, whatever it was we do not know but it is there. The name of the thing is there. And then we have blessing. That is another word in the Psalms that ought to be noted, and ought to induce us to learn more of them, for blessedness should mark us, even in our faces. "Blessed is the man whose strength is in thee, they, in whose heart are the highways". I suppose the word 'blessed' is mentioned in the Psalms more often than in any other part of scripture. Well, we do not want to be outside the range of that. We want to be amongst those men here that are blessed. The Lord on the mount, you will remember, speaks of blessing some nine times in regard of His disciples, in regard of others too, including His disciples. We want to be amongst those that come in for these things. And so here we have the verse I read, "Blessed is the man whose strength is in thee, they, in whose heart are the highways". It is not one man alone; the spirit of prophecy, the spirit of psalmody, would bring in the saints. We want to be brought into these things. It is very beautiful in the prophets and the psalms to see how the singular branches off into the plural: "they, in whose heart are the highways". We must have the highways, meaning that we have strength in God. God is our strength, but we cannot claim that apart from the highways. There are those who do. There are those who pretend that they have all that God is, but they

have not. The highways must be added. God has respect for the highways. You may say, 'What do you mean by the highways?' That is important. The highways are for the upright man; and what is any man worth if he is not upright? What are the highways for an upright man? To depart from evil! That is the idea. There are thousands of people who claim to have God as their strength. I do not deny it; I do not say that they have not, but then what about the highways? "In whose heart are the highways". One of them, as I said, is to depart from evil. If I were in an evil association, the highway for me is open, and what is it? It is to depart from evil. The highways run through. There are other features. It is an interesting study in the Scriptures as to what the highways mean. The initial highway is to depart from evil. That is what the book of Proverbs teaches us. Deborah, in her remarkable song, deplores that the highways were neglected: "In the days of Shamgar the son of Anath, in the days of Jael, the roads were unused, and the travellers on highways went by crooked paths" (Judges 5:6). And they are neglected now by myriads of God's people, those who stay in man-made associations and other associations, personal associations. To depart from evil is the first great highway to God, It is not only externally, but in your heart, "In whose heart are the highways". And then it goes on to say, "Passing through the valley of Baca"; that is the valley of weeping. One has often had knowledge of persons dying, who were attached to these evil associations, and there is a flood of weeping, but little of the well-spring. Those in whose hearts are the highways, those who have departed from evil, "they make it a well-spring". That is what they can do. Their strength is in God. In their heart are the highways of God, and they pass through the weeping sphere and they make it a well-spring. What power there

is in separation, in the highways of God! God is there. One of the finest things you can get in Scripture is what is said to Joshua and David, "Jehovah thy God is with thee whithersoever thou goest". It is not, 'Where I lead', but 'Wherever you go, I am with you'. God has confidence in them. God reads the heart. A man in whose heart the highways of God are, God knows him. You make it a well-spring; you do it. It is a question of the power of the Spirit of God, and the waves of grace that come in there, one wave after another, so that you are not overwhelmed with weeping, mourning and sorrowing, but make it a well-spring. And then there is "the early rain", for that is really what is meant, the autumn rain. That is the rain that affects the seed as it is put into the ground. The early planting, how much it is needed! The devil is waiting on young people to pick up any little seed put into their hearts; but in the highways of God the rain fills the pools, or rather it "covereth it with blessings", the rain coming down as the seed is planted in the heart. That is how the believer moves on. The greatest bereavement he overcomes; the greatest sorrow of any kind he overcomes. Like Habakkuk he joys in the God of his salvation. He is able to sing these songs and to walk in the high places, and to use his stringed instruments and to contribute what he has to the chief Musician; so that he goes from strength to strength. It is not from strength to weakness, although in another sense he does realise his weakness, as the apostle says, "When I am weak, then I am powerful" (2 Corinthians 12:10). That is in the sense that flesh profits nothing. You have no power at all in yourself, but in God. The acceptance of the powerlessness of the flesh brings in God. "I have strength for all things", he says, "in him that gives me power" (Philippians 4:13). What a mighty victory that is! All things!

And so it goes on here, as you will many a time have noticed, "They go from strength to strength: each one will appear before God in Zion". That does not mean that I go to church, as people would say. One would desire to see young people go to church; as it is, the drift is the other way. It is sorrowful to see people hiking off and leaving the churches empty. I am not telling you to go, but I am speaking of the apostasy that marks the moment. It is not going to church here, or even going to the meeting, although the meeting, the assembly, is involved; but they "appear before God in Zion". How suitable that was to the sons of Korah, the subjects of the sovereign mercy of God! That is what every true believer acknowledges himself to be. The more he goes on in the highways of God the more he discerns that it is mercy all the way. Grace, of course, is there to meet the need, but there is mercy all through. The more I know God, the more I know myself and the more I see it is a question of the sovereign selection and the power of God. So that they go from strength to strength, as it says, "Each one will appear before God in Zion". If there are those here who are not moving in this direction although christians, here is a word for you. You are only taken up by God in grace and sovereign mercy that you may appear before Him, not in your selected place, but in Zion. "When shall I come and appear before God?". One may say, 'It will be at Christ's day'. "My soul thirsteth for God, for the living God", says another; "When shall I come and appear before God?" (Psalm 42:2). That is the language of one who is in the highways now, in whose heart are the highways, and who has God before him. So if there are those here who have started in this way and are not serving God and having part in His service and worshipping Him, there is a word for you. The call indeed, the appeal to you, is to come with us and appear before

God in Zion, not in poverty, not in weakness, but in strength, going from strength to strength, each one of them appearing before God in Zion. There are those who think it is only a question of setting up a place and calling it the house of God, but that will not do. God is very particular about Zion. "In all places where I shall make my name to be remembered, I will come unto thee" (Exodus 20:24).

Well, now, I go on to the New Testament to 2 Corinthians. What I am concerned about now is the glory, for the system we have come into includes that. It is not simply that God is glorious and Christ is glorious, but the saints are to be glorious. The glory is part of the testimony. Even the persons who took the bounty of the saints to Jerusalem were glorious. They were glorious in their action. They were said to be "messengers of assemblies, Christ's glory" (2 Corinthians 8:23). The assembly is Christ's glory, and anyone reflecting what characterises the assembly is glorious. That is now what I would speak about for a moment, the idea of being glorious. Of course, it all belongs to God. He is the God of it; He is the Father of it; Christ is the Lord of it; the Spirit is the Spirit of glory. You can see it all emanates from God, but then He intends to put it upon us, to have us glorious. You cannot imagine one in eternity before God not being glorious. One star differs from another in glory. Surely they are symbolical of the saints; each has a name; each is glorious; and so the divine thought is that we are to be before Him in glory. Two men appear in glory speaking with Jesus. That is the heavenly side brought into view, two men in glory speaking with Jesus. There were three men there besides, but they were not glorious. Peter and James and John were there, but they were not glorious. See the difference between them and Moses and Elijah. They were glorious, appearing with Jesus. See the difference

between Peter's poor words to Jesus, and those of Moses and Elijah. What were they saying to Jesus? They were speaking to Jesus about His death. The Lord loves to hear us speak about His death. They were speaking about "his departure which he was about to accomplish in Jerusalem" (Luke 9:31). They knew about it. I can understand Moses, by the types, saying, 'Exodus all meant this; and the offerings meant this'. It is a question of the exodus, for the wonderful idea is the Lord's exodus, how He was to go out from this world. They were talking about that. How delightful it must have been to the Lord that they spoke to Him about that. Moses said earlier, "Let me, I pray thee, see thy glory" (Exodus 33:18). Now he is himself appearing in it, and speaking about the greatest moral glory conceivable, that is, the way in which Jesus went out of this world. What glory enveloped Him as He went out! They were speaking about that. And so, dear brethren, the Lord is endeavouring to lead us on to this matter of beholding the glory of the Lord, and as beholding it to take it on. "We all, looking on the glory of the Lord, with unveiled face, are transformed according to the same image from glory to glory". One would venture if one had time to illustrate this in the lives of others. In the Lord's own life, it was one glory after another. Take the gospel of Luke: It was one strength after another and one glory after another. It is just a record of glory, and the final exit, one of the greatest displays of moral glory conceivable, is the exodus of Christ out of this world, "his departure which he was about to accomplish in Jerusalem". He said Himself, "It must not be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem" (Luke 13:33). He must perish there, as all wickedness was concentrated there, and He stood out against it in moral glory. It is a wonderful scene. One loves to linger at it to see the glory of the Lord. It is really

the glory of the Lord in one sense we are speaking of here. It is the glory of the way in which the Lord makes the love of God effectual in the believer's heart. There is nothing to be compared with the cross for moral glory. Think of One despising the shame, and set down at the right hand of the throne of God! Think of Him occupying Himself with one christian, to invest him with the glory! That is the kind of service. Are you ready to put yourself into His hands? Looking at the glory, seeing how He does it, and as you look at it you become glorious, "even as by the Lord the Spirit". He is doing it, but you are looking; you are not indifferent. Indifference is a baneful thing amongst us. The idea is intense fixedness of the eye, like Stephen; it says, "he saw the glory of God" (Acts 7:55). It is the fixedness of the eye on the one hand, and it is the steady service of Christ on the other, "the Lord the Spirit", to bring about this wonderful transformation from glory to glory. That is what I wanted to bring before you, that you may see what christianity is in the normality connected with it, going from strength to strength and receiving from the divine reservoir, appearing before God in Zion and taking on the glory, going from glory to glory being prepared thus for the heavenly testimony that is before us.

THE SAINTS AS MATERIAL FOR THE ASSEMBLY

1 Peter 1:17 - 25; 1 Peter 2:1 - 8

J.T. The idea of assembly material, as most of us know, is precisely stated by the Lord, and is much in view in Matthew 16, He Himself taking His part in it as the foundation and Peter representing the material for building up, from the divine side. This section of Scripture which is written by Peter has in mind how we reach experimentally the thought in ourselves, each becoming practically material or living stones. We begin with the Father whom we are said to invoke here. I think we shall reach step by step leading to the thought of material. The thoughts to be considered in the section are features we take on, that is, He who is invoked as Father is to be feared by us here, as in the place of sojourn, that is the world viewed in that way. Then redemption, the way by which it is effected, and what it is as seen in this section, that is, from the vain conversation handed down. Then the purification of our souls as we have it: "Having purified your souls by obedience to the truth to unfeigned brotherly love, love one another out of a pure heart fervently". Then we are born again by the living and abiding word of God, then the injunction to lay aside certain things of the flesh and by the mental milk growing up to salvation so that we reach the thought of a living stone, "To whom coming", and that we as coming are living stones and being built up. These several items of truth I think we can profitably consider in themselves all leading up to the idea of assembly material.

A.N. Do we get an ascending thought, illustrated in the case of the queen of Sheba -- she went to Solomon and saw the steps by which he went up to the

house of Jehovah? It is really the house of God here that is in view, is it not?

J.T. Quite so, it is as an ascending thought the idea is reached, as also in the book of Psalms, the Songs of degrees, ascending to the house. It is an elevated thought; the idea of the house in Scripture is suggestive of it: it is elevated; it is said to be on the top of the mountain, that is, it is above the level of ordinary religion, which, as it is spoken of, I think is seen in the "vain conversation", not only what has to be laid aside, but what we have to be redeemed from. It is so important, because it disputes the rights of God regarding His people and is manifestly the ordinary worldly religion, an urgent matter, for they have to be redeemed from it, namely, from the "vain conversation handed down from your fathers".

A.M.H. Is the object of this ascent to the house in this way that there might be nothing corruptible there, but that all might be fitted in to the house?

J.T. Well, it would seem so, to reach tier after tier, as it were, on the journey up. We see what is really left behind, and there is a clearer view the higher morally we go.

W.T. Does the "vain conversation" refer to the Jewish system?

J.T. Yes, I think so, there is nothing more beclouding than current religion that is handed down; there is the idea of tradition handed down; it is not come down but is deliberately handed down. It is not simply what is handed down casually, but handed down to one generation after another, who pass it on, adding to it perhaps and darkening it, so that the people of God need to be redeemed from it, not only delivered; it so disputes the rights of God in His people.

G.S. Would the fathers in that way be in contrast to the One we invoke as Father? The tradition of

the fathers is in contrast to all that has come to us by revelation.

J.T. Just so, it is what is handed down from the fathers; it seems that is why it is not only a question of their fathers, but on the traditional lines such as we get now in current religion, what is handed down from the fathers; not that they would perhaps recognise what is accredited to them in many ways, but it is being added to. The handing down is a cumulative thought, that is what the generation of the Lord has to do with. It calls for deliverance as Peter said in Acts 2:40, "Be saved from this perverse generation".

W.T. How would that thought apply to us today?

J.T. Well, it applies to us as we are saying, in what is handed down. What is to be received and enjoyed is not handed down; but that which comes down is by the Spirit, it is carried down, it is not handed from one to another, it is carried down; the thing that we have is by the Spirit and we know that there is continuity. The cumulative teaching is not in the form of handing down; Peter thanks God there is that, but it is not in the form of tradition; it is brought down by the Spirit. The Lord says of the Spirit, "the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and will bring to your remembrance all the things which I have said to you" (John 14:26). "He shall teach you all things", so there is the idea of the things being brought down by the Spirit.

A.N. Invoking God as Father is the first step you speak of. Do you think it indicates that the Holy Spirit promotes happy relations with God so that we go to Him as Father?

J.T. Yes, I think Father represents the dispensation in the sense of grace; although judgment is alluded to here, He who is Father judges, as Peter says, "If ye invoke as Father him who, without

regard of persons, judges according to the work of each". I think the Father is the thought which represents the dispensation characteristically; that is, it refers to grace, what it is set up in, "so also grace might reign through righteousness" (Romans 5:21); judgment would have that in mind. There it is the question of the discipline of God largely; but the Father represents grace.

A.N. The principle as to that would be set forth in Israel, "You only have I known of all the families of the earth; therefore will I visit upon you all your iniquities" (Amos 3:2). The nearer you come to God the more you come to know what He is.

J.T. Quite so; "Knowing that ye have been redeemed, not by corruptible things, as silver or gold ... but by precious blood, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot, the blood of Christ". The preciousness of the redemption price is stressed here in view of what christians had to be delivered from. There is a certain analogy today in the ways of God: the saints have to be delivered from accredited religion because it disputes the rights of God. That is a point I think of importance even if the thing is handed down. Anything that is handed down beclouds us and disputes the rights of God.

G.S. Would "Foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world" be in contrast to the tradition of the fathers?

J.T. Well, quite so, it carries us beyond it; they are not considered in the matter.

W.T.E. Job's answer to Bildad who had said, "Inquire, I pray thee, of the former generation, and attend to the researches of their fathers", seems to be on this line. Job replied, "Of a truth I know it is so; but how can man be just with God?" (Job 8:8; Job 9:2).

J.T. The thought of this man is what they have. He was not concerned with the side where God was

working; he would say 'We are not concerned as to that'; the practical lesson is to be cleared of all that, in order to be suited material. The point is to be cleared of all that is handed down. If it is handed down from past history, however distant, it beclouds us. The Spirit is the power that brings things to our remembrance; the Lord says, He "will bring to your remembrance all the things which I have said to you" (John 14:26). He will clear our minds of all that is handed down. It is by the Spirit really that we come into the assembly and have part in it.

G.C.G. Would that make way in our hearts for taking in all that the thought of the "preciousness" is applied to?

J.T. Yes. It must be by the Spirit; we have much in good books, and of course, vast ministry that must be considered, but whatever is to affect us must be in the Spirit; the Spirit is the power. He "will bring to your remembrance all the things which I have said to you". The Lord, of course, referred to what He had taught the disciples, but then all ministry is what He says and it is the Spirit who brings it to us. A right understanding of past ministry is by the Spirit and not by what is handed down, not by tradition, but what the Spirit brings. We want the pure thing, and in John 14 the Lord speaks about the Spirit; He begins at verse 15 to speak about the Spirit viewed in His personality, having in mind as He proceeds, in what He says after verse 21, that there would be a change from pristine conditions; that is, the time would come when love to Him would be attested by keeping His commandments and keeping His word; those who did not love Him would not keep His word; and then He goes on to say the Father would send the Spirit in His name, a very remarkable thing. He Himself sends the Spirit (chapter 15:26), "whom I will send to you from the Father", but in chapter 14

it is the Father who sends "the Comforter, the Holy Spirit", in His name, and as come He would exercise the function of bringing to remembrance all the things the Lord had said, and "shall teach you all things". That really is the position, and it is on these lines that we reach the idea of assembly material. What is merely "handed down" whether it be immediate or distant, whatever it be, if on the principle of tradition, is not trustworthy and we immediately reject it.

Ques. Is that why it is important to "hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies"?

J.T. That is the idea exactly. We have authority in what the Spirit says to the assemblies. He speaks to each of the assemblies, and keeps on saying things, that is the thought.

J.H.T. The idea is in Acts 11, Peter tells those of the circumcision who contended with him as to what had been handed down "I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, John baptised with water"; Peter called attention to how the Lord said it.

J.T. Yes, quite so; you are speaking about what the Lord said, and Peter remembered it. I think he would be trying to direct those of the circumcision from what had been handed down, in that he now says "I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said". Another beautiful word of confirmation is what Paul said in Acts 20 to the elders of Ephesus, "and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, that he himself said, It is more blessed to give than to receive". We do not find it actually stated anywhere else, but it is carried down by the Spirit.

A.N. Would what the Lord says in Matthew 5:20,21, referring to what is handed down, "Ye have heard that it was said to the ancients", contrast with "But I say unto you"? That is, the Lord had something fresh to give.

J.T. Well, I think that is on the lines on which the Lord is delivering His people now from vain conversation handed down. I am sure it is a thing that beclouds, and most of our brethren in the systems are held by it; it is not simply that it is wrong, but it disputes the rights of God over His people and the great thought of redemption is applied to it. "Ye have been redeemed ... from your vain conversation handed down". We are redeemed from it; the rights of God are in question, so the thought of redemption is brought in; that is what it cost. There are those who profess to know the Lord Jesus but they stay in this most darkened condition of things; we have to be redeemed from it. Peter says we are redeemed from it. It is not only that redemption delivers us from wrath to come; it does, but it also delivers us from "vain conversation handed down".

P.G.T. That teaching is prevalent now in christendom with its traditions.

J.T. It is really what characterises, you might say, the whole of christendom; public christianity, and it disputes the rights of God in His people, so much so, that redemption is applied to it here; that is what is meant: "Knowing that ye have been redeemed, not by corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation handed down from your fathers, but by precious blood, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot, the blood of Christ". If our brethren in the various traditional systems affected by this darkening teaching were to see this, would take this in, it would deliver them from it because it is disputing the rights of God.

Ques. Would it help to connect this question of the rights of God with Isaiah 43:7, "Every one that is called by my name, and whom I have created for my glory: I have formed him, yea, I have made him"?

J.T. Quite so.

Ques. Would you say what the Spirit presents is in His living word, but what is handed down is of death?

J.T. Well, I think that is how it is looked upon; it is of death and it disputes God's rights with His people, so much so, that the actual thought of redemption is applied; so we are to be redeemed from it; it has cost the death of Christ to deliver from it.

Ques. Is redemption to be a constant thing with us?

J.T. Well, we need to be delivered from things handed down. If we are held by anything that is handed down, any past events, any historical matters amongst brethren even, that are handed down, we have to look into them and see whether they are not darkening the mind, because if they are affecting me, I am, to that extent, disqualified as assembly material. So much has happened and we are affected by historical things; they may not be historical really if they are tested, but there is the danger of things handed down darkening our minds and interfering with us as assembly material. What the apostle handed down was by the Spirit.

Ques. 1 John 1:3 says, "That which we have seen and heard we report to you". Is it in teaching that the Spirit of God takes up that report and passes it on to us now?

J.T. Well, what they had has been brought down to us by the Spirit through His servants, and by the Spirit we get the gain of it today. The Spirit here as the Paraclete, as the Comforter, has charge of these matters, so that Peter goes on to say "Who by him do believe on God", having said that He is "foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world, but who has been manifested at the end of times for your sakes, who by him do believe on God". That is by Christ we believe on God.

P.G.T. Does it lead up to what we get in the second epistle, "for he with whom these things are not present is blind, short-sighted" (chapter 1:9)?

J.T. Well, as to those things that are mentioned in the second epistle, the aim, I believe, is to show that what we come into in christianity is by substantial means. The things are substantial, so that we have a list of substantial things; for instance, we begin to get things, as it says, who "have received like precious faith with us through the righteousness of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ"; that is, we receive faith through righteousness, one thing by another thing, and then he goes on, "Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God", another thing; and again, "As his divine power", another thing; "His divine power has given to us all things which relate to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that has called us by glory and virtue", two things; and then we have, as you see, further things that we come down to in addition, where we add one thing to another ourselves, and having added these things, they exist and abound in us. It is those who fail to add these things in a substantial way that are blind. I mention that just to help here. How substantial the things are that we are dealing with! How Peter brings them in here! He says that the faith, your faith is by Christ, "Who by him do believe on God"; that He is the instrument. It is not faith in Him, but by Him, "Who by him do believe on God, who has raised him from among the dead and given him glory, that your faith and hope should be in God". That is the Lord is viewed here entirely from the mediatorial side and even as regards our faith, we get it by Him and by Him we believe on God. The next idea in mind is the purifying of our souls, "Having purified your souls by obedience to the truth to unfeigned brotherly love, love one another out of a pure heart

fervently". That is what we have done, if we are real christians, we have purified our souls.

Ques. Would these instructions in Peter's epistle fit in with the chapters in Matthew leading up to chapter 16, the traditions of the scribes and Pharisees, and learning the resources in Christ as the One who can meet them?

J.T. I have no doubt you could work them out; you certainly get tradition in that section; it would be an interesting enquiry to look into it.

Rem. I was thinking perhaps the writer had in mind the occasion of the Lord maintaining him on the water in going to Him outside the boat.

J.T. Verse 21 suggests first the mediatorial service of Christ, and verse 22 that we do something; that is the growth of our souls is involved and we have our part, "Having purified your souls by obedience to the truth to unfeigned brotherly love, love one another out of a pure heart fervently". Then we have a further thought that we cannot apply to our doing, "Being born again", note that, "by the living and abiding word of God".

Ques. What is the suggestion of purifying our souls, would you help a little upon it in relation to the thought of being fit material for the assembly?

J.T. Well, we have the word 'soul' several times in the epistle; it is a sort of key word and deals with what we are really, as you might say. It is to make us practical men and women with affections; what we are inwardly, the thought of one another receiving "the end of your faith, the salvation of your souls" referred to in verse 9. That is what is in mind in this great epistle dealing with the government of God. Believers are viewed in this way. The word is several times used and I think it is to make us practical in our affections. The word 'soul', I think, covers the affections, not simply the upper ones but the lower affections. We have spirit, soul and body;

well, evidently the soul is the middle thought, between the spirit and the body. The spirit connects me directly with God, and the soul is the intermediate thought that is inclusive of all those affections that work out manward. We have to be purified because we are so often governed by personal feelings. Our souls need to be revived, or purified, "to unfeigned brotherly love", and hence the exhortation is, "Love one another out of a pure heart fervently", not a pure soul, but a pure heart, because the heart is the more dignified organ, as involving intelligence, so that I think the idea is that we are brought in practically in relation to one another, leading up to the idea of assembly material. I can never think of being in the assembly unless I respect the brethren and love them. If I cannot respect them then I cannot love them and thus I am not assembly material.

W.T. Is that made possible by being born again "by the living and abiding word of God"?

J.T. Yes, the basis of it is we are "born again". Now we come to nature, what we are as "born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the living and abiding word of God"; abiding brings in what we are, not simply born again as in John 3, but the intelligent side of our position; it is by the word of God which lives and abides. I know that I belong to the family of God, not only that I have got acceptance, but I have intelligence about my position; I know where I am by the word of God; it lives and abides, it is a continuous thing, it is not something that we can look back to but it is a continuous thought.

P.G.T. Does that make a clean cut between us and the world, the systems that we have been accustomed to associate ourselves with?

J.T. Well, being born again by the word of God is what you might call a radical thought. I love; I know what I am doing; I am born again by the

word of God, "by the living and abiding word of God"; it is the key really. I know where I am. I know what I am doing. I know why I love the brethren. I have many reasons for loving the brethren, and it is because of the intelligence that the word imparts to my inner being.

F.H. Is that seen in the woman in John 4, she was redeemed from the vain tradition of the fathers? The first step was, "Our fathers worshipped in this mountain"; the second, by whom she believed on God; the third is the purifying of her soul, she went to the men of the city; and the fourth, "Is not he the Christ?".

J.T. That is good, that helps. She said, "Our fathers worshipped in this mountain". The Lord says as regards that, "The hour is coming and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth". This matter of love is to be noted particularly, it is the purifying of the soul, that is, I am free of mere natural affections. I love the brethren fervently, as it says, with a pure heart, and as obedient to the truth: "By obedience to the truth to unfeigned brotherly love, love one another out of a pure heart fervently". The purification of the soul, I think, tends to clear us from personal feelings and preferences and brings the heart into the matter, which is a suggestion of intelligence as to love. We have "the eyes of your heart" mentioned in Ephesians; it is a suggestion of intelligence as to love. I love as being born by the word of God; the word of God confirms that; it sets me up in it. I know why I love the brethren, they are worth loving and I know they are.

Ques. Would "obedience to the truth" suggest an essential foundation or basis for this broadening out?

J.T. You see that obedience to the truth must enter into this matter. The truth is a great regulating

thought always. You see how this is all leading up to the matter of my wanting to be in fellowship with the brethren; this is the road to it.

Ques. I was wondering in John 8, when the Lord says, "Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free", if that is what is in view, what the Lord was going to disclose?

J.T. Quite so, that is a great regulating thought, and so Peter in chapter 2 deals in a deliberate way with things that we may be allowing in our souls whilst accepting the thought of purification of soul. Anything such as "all malice and all guile and hypocrisies and envyings and all evil speakings", so that we come to the thought, "As newborn babes desire earnestly the pure mental milk of the word". That is, I now see my position, and my mind is to be governed, to be fed by pure mental milk as this is: what would support the mind. We are so liable and so ready to give way to this or that influence.

Rem. The laying aside of things seems to suggest a definite act.

J.T. Yes it does; laying it aside is better than handing it down. Then tasting "that the Lord is good", so that the Lord has His place now in goodness, and the thought of material comes up, "To whom coming".

W.T. Are these contributive to the salvation we grow up to?

J.T. Well, quite so, I have to be delivered from all these elements, and as delivered one is free, that "ye may grow up to salvation"; you see it is growth, it is progressive, so that one is free.

A.S. Are these things to be worked out in localities?

J.T. I think so, Peter is really working after Paul's line of things and this second chapter would apply to any local company, what they were in themselves. They are "living stones", they are "a holy

priesthood". This really marks the first epistle to the Corinthians; it is what the local assembly is as self-contained, so to speak; it belongs to the universal fellowship but it is each local assembly that is to understand what it has and what it is. We were speaking recently of the furnishings of the local company, what they were, "The temple of God", and then "Christ's body". Now Peter is dealing with Jewish christians, but he has really reached the same idea, that they are rendered independent of judaism by this teaching; they are set up in this. They were dispersed abroad and were suffering under the government of God as Jews. They were really coming into the truth of christianity and they are to be delivered from these traditional things.

Rem. The Corinthians were set up in this by the truth of christianity. That is what he is aiming at.

J.T. That is the idea, we really cannot be in the assembly otherwise, we can see the force of it. The Jewish believers come into the truth of christianity and are to be delivered from what is handed down, from what is traditional.

G.S. Peter is the exemplification of his own ministry. Paul withstood him to the face and then, in "obedience to the truth", Peter speaks of him as "our beloved brother Paul" (2 Peter 3:15).

J.T. He came to the truth of "unfeigned brotherly love"; he loved Paul. If he had been governed by tradition he would not have loved Paul. There were those who did not love Paul.

G.M. Does "the pure mental milk of the word" stand in contrast to the "vain conversation" which had to be laid aside?

J.T. I think so. The pure mental milk of the word supports your mind in regard of all these things, because christianity in one's soul is hardly ever historic, it is what is present, and one has to be sustained. We are to be sustained in what we begin

with. Some of us were speaking about God being historical, which is right; or God viewed as in Deity; a historical God is right to a point, but "Him who is" is not historical: God is present; He is a present God, and it is God known now in my soul and referring backward and forward. It is a present God that is the idea of christianity, and if my mind is to be maintained in what I have come into by faith I must have the pure mental milk of the word to help me so as to be maintained in the mind in relation to God.

G.M. This is not milk in the sense that Paul speaks about it to the Corinthians, is it?

J.T. Well, I think it is akin to that, but the words 'mental' and 'milk' are striking here; it is the taste he is speaking of. It is the keen taste of a babe, not simply that they were that, but the keen taste and feelings of what belongs to a babe are to be maintained.

Ques. Would that stand in contrast to what he says is to be laid aside; there could not be the desire for this mental word if these are not laid aside?

J.T. These things are laid aside; it is putting them down, that is an act of the hand. It is not handing them down, because we may hand things down that happened years back, carry them down here now with real darkness to the soul. It is the present thing; that is the point; it is now the pure mental milk of the word that sustains me, so it is a present God; it is God as He is Himself. A historical God is the One who has done things, but we have to do with Him who said "I AM THAT I AM" (Exodus 3:14).

P.G.T. He sends Moses saying "I AM THAT I AM", not 'I was the God of Abraham', but "I AM".

J.T. Well now, we come as grown up to salvation. I do not question the brethren, I do not complain about the brethren, I am saved, I am free, I have come to Christ, "To whom coming". I do not come

to the brethren, I love them, I come to Christ; now this is a question of where He is, He must be somewhere and I come to Him.

Ques. Are you giving it a local bearing now?

J.T. Well, it is a practical thing; I am free now and the order is, "To whom coming, a living stone, cast away indeed as worthless by men, but with God chosen, precious, yourselves also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house". The position is that He is rejected, current religion has rejected Him.

Rem. You come to Him as a living stone and you find other living stones.

J.T. Yes, and then we "are being built up"; it is continuous.

Ques. Do we have here stones perfectly prepared to be set down in their place in relation to others?

J.T. That is the idea; it is free from all incongruous things; it is on this line that we are really in the assembly. Thus I am free from all incongruous things, free from all that would interfere with the working of love, "being built up a spiritual house".

Ques. Do you link this up with Matthew 16 at this point, material being suitable for building in?

J.T. Quite so, it leads up to it. The treatment that the Lord received from the builders, that is, those who went on with traditional things, the treatment He received is the test now, so that it says "Cast away indeed as worthless by men".

J.H.T. Does 1 Kings 6:7 help in what you are speaking of? "And the house, when it was being built, was built of stone entirely made ready before it was brought thither; so that there was neither hammer nor axe nor any tool of iron heard in the house while it was being built". The stone squaring and the quarry work had been going on; there was no noise heard; they were all prepared before.

J.T. I had been thinking of that passage.

J.H.T. Do you think reference to the stones in 1 Kings 5:17 would help, "They brought great stones, costly stones, hewn stones, to lay the foundation of the house"?

J.T. Great stones, that is wonderful, costly stones. I suppose great stones would apply to ourselves and would connect us with the thought of God about us. One belongs to the structure, and if so I will fit. Costly stones refers to redemption, it is what they cost.

Ques. Do you think the stone in its place would correspond to a person really coming into fellowship?

J.T. That is the idea; that one is clear, one does not make demands, one belongs to the structure; he is in line with what is there and if he is he will fit. Attention is called to great stones. That does not include any historical thing in me at all, what I am after the flesh. We may refer back to things, it does not refer to that at all; it refers to me in God's mind, that is to say, I am clothed with that. Costly stones is what I cost, that is what redemption is, and then hewn stones, that is the work expended upon us, apostolic labour for instance, skilled labour expended upon us; the work of the Spirit of God is in mind in all that precedes what we are speaking of so that I fit in; hewn would mean that I am made to fit.

Rem. I wondered if we have a further idea in Paul. It is said of him, "God, who set me apart even from my mother's womb", and as costly, "the Son of God, who has loved me and given himself for me" (Galatians 1:15; Galatians 2:20), and then going into Antioch and coming into discipline, would that be the hewn stone fitting in at Antioch with the brethren, would that be the building in?

J.T. Quite so.

Ques. Are the living stones here apart from any exercise on our part? Or is it a result of that?

J.T. Well, I think the exercise goes with it; it rests with each. We notice, "Having purified your souls by obedience to the truth", and we noticed laying aside things -- not handing things down but laying them aside; and then the taste that you have, the taste for divine things as a new-born babe. What is your taste? The mental thing; that puts out all bad reading; it is mental milk and supports my mind, so that unless that is with us practically, we cannot, so to speak, be included in the priesthood, nor are we. "To whom coming, a living stone", ye are "being built up", that is, I fit in. I do not call to the brethren to take me in, nor do I say to them that I have a right; you see that does not fit: I am to fit in and be built in.

Ques. Does Colossians help on these lines? Onesimus, "who is one of you" (chapter 4:9).

J.T. Quite so, "One of you"; or again in 1 Corinthians 1:30 we have, "Of him are ye in Christ Jesus", that is, of God. We fit in, we are of a kind, and fit; there are no incongruous elements built in or attaching to us; that would only be continuing the confusion. For the material, we want to fit in.

A.M.H. "To whom coming". It is what is precious to God here. I was thinking of the salvation of which you have been speaking, and even what we have been taught, and may have been practised by us, but now as free through the mental milk of the word, we have entirely different tastes, and power to appreciate Christ and appreciate God so that we fit in in affection.

J.T. Coming to Him as rejected, the position is clear: I am rejected. The position is now that there are no incongruous elements attaching to me, I am done with them, I fit in, I am built up; and then we have the "spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God by Jesus Christ". We have part in the service of God.

P.G.T. Is it the same as going "forth to him without the camp, bearing his reproach" (Hebrews 13:13).

J.T. Well, it is to that extent going forth to Him; that is also in Exodus, and we have sacrifices there too, but here we are led up, I think, to Paul's doctrine. Jewish christians are brought in and they fit in to any of Paul's assemblies on these lines.

Rem. The traditional builders could not find a place for Christ, but you suggest that God has begun now; the corner stone is there, and everything is going to be built up in connection with that new system.

J.T. It is very fine, I think, as connecting that with Matthew 16, for God has laid in Zion a corner stone. "Behold, I lay in Zion a corner stone, elect, precious". God has done that.

A.M.H. Do you think the way the Lord waits for Peter is at all suggestive of how He waits upon us? "Thou art Peter". Is there not something similar amongst ourselves if we lend ourselves more to His handling?

J.T. I was thinking how much there is to be done. Conversion is only a starting point, and as each one knows, there is practical searching and laying aside of things that would hinder the flow of affections; they have to be untrammelled; He loves to have our affections now, and, these being there, He can fit in the affections of one with another. If our affections are restricted we are on that account isolated. That word 'handling' is very beautiful; handling one another. How the Lord handled Peter! How before He died He looked at him! He turned and looked at him as having denied Him, "And Peter, going forth without, wept bitterly" (Luke 22:62). How perfect was His handling of Peter! So that the stone is fitted; he is a great stone, a costly stone, a hewn stone; he is fitted.

F.I. I suppose in what you say in regard to Peter, who said here, "If indeed ye have tasted that the Lord is good", that he therefore comes in with us in the Lord's handling.

J.T. This is a great matter, much more than perhaps we think; it underlies all our meetings and our movements together; it is the kind of taste we have.

W.T. Would this bring us into the spiritual region and regulate the movements of the brethren?

J.T. We have a spiritual house, living stones, and spiritual sacrifices.

A.N. What you have been speaking of would work out in Moab's taste (Jeremiah 48:11). It "remained in him", but Ephraim's taste becomes so different that he says (Hosea 14:8), "What have I to do any more with idols?". His taste is changed completely.

G.F. Is it on account of the fact that Moab was not "emptied from vessel to vessel" that his taste remained in him?

J.T. Discipline changes our taste until we come to what is spiritual, and it underlies all our meetings. How do we come? We have the right taste for divine things; mental milk is important, it feeds the mind, it saves us from ordinary light reading and things that damage us; the mental milk of the word sustains the mind.

A.M.H. We would not allow anything to hinder; we have tasted that the Lord is good, the senses are exercised and we know good, and anything outside of this is liable to draw us away.

J.T. How good the Lord was in His service to Peter! I suppose he could take it up and pursue it, the man who could write this epistle, the apostle Peter, whose sincere ministry serves to illustrate how the truth had affected him; some of it exposed him, his own book exposed him! So here we have a man whom the Lord has taken up and fitted so that he

can furnish us with these instructions; he is a great stone, a costly stone, a hewn stone, and he would bring us all to that.

W.T.E. Is that the end of Peter in chapter 1:24, in that "all flesh is as grass"?

J.T. Well, exactly, that is the end of flesh.

GLORY CONFERRED ON THE BELIEVER

Romans 8:28 - 30; Romans 9:23 - 26; John 17:20 - 23

I had in mind to speak about glory and particularly how it affects christians, the effect upon us now; the future is plainly spoken of in Scripture so that little need be said. We have the word in its peculiar force, "Our momentary and light affliction works for us in surpassing measure an eternal weight of glory" (2 Corinthians 4:17). The idea of weight attaches to the thought; as we think of the value of a commodity the more regard there is for weight; so that, our affliction now, however heavy, is really light; none had more than Christ Himself. Take the apostle Paul, who calls it our momentary and light affliction! I have read these scriptures to bring in a little the purpose of God bearing on the matter and how glory is the one end, the end, God's purpose at the beginning, and the glory with which He invests us at the end, "These also he has glorified", that is to say, those who are the objects of His purpose. What I have in mind is to bring out that glory is needed to fill niches in the system, the divine system, in service; aside from it we should be awkward and misfits, aside from being glorified. It is said that "in his temple doth every one say, Glory!" (Psalm 29:9). I suppose we may carry it forward into the eternal realm of things; everything will reflect God, and that is glory, for the heavenly city is said to come down "having the glory of God" (Revelation 21:10).

What I have in mind is to work that out so that we may not be misfits or awkward in the position into which we are called, but work smoothly as of it characteristically, for God has in the great inauguration of His system, brought in something which He regards as His standard, and things must come up to that. That is His mark. When it says "three

thousand souls" were added, the implication is manifest that they were equal to the position. The Spirit of God does not leave the subject until He tells us just what was there, that is to say, they were equal to the position and the position was great and glorious, one hundred and twenty persons each having a distinction, for it is great. "The crowd of names who were together" is a remarkable expression, as if they would need to be set in order for their glory to shine; each shone in his own glory, each had a glory, hence the crowd of names is according to God's glory, and they were all together in one place, all together; that is glory too, not one was absent, and heaven commits itself to that. What was there was in keeping with what heaven did, so that the noise is heard: the noise out of heaven "filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared to them parted tongues, as of fire, and it sat upon each one of them", that is, they are all on the same footing in that connection. It is a glorious scene, that is the divine origin; it was a wonderful day, a wonderful time for heaven, much more, I believe, for heaven than for Jerusalem at that time. The work of God has been effecting admiration, admirers of that ever since, with true believers in Christ glorified; every true believer admires that, and they were brought into it. Three thousand were added, the stress is on adding, not who did it, but that they were added, so many; and then we are told what they did, how "they persevered in the teaching and fellowship of the apostles, in breaking of bread and prayers". You might say there is not much in that; but there is a great deal in it when you consider the change it involved, in turning away from what they were connected with and taking on this new system of things that God had set up. They had to turn away. It was really turning away from one thing to another; that is, the other thing would mark the apostles,

they being the representatives of Christ in glory. They represented His authority, their teaching, their fellowship, the breaking of bread and prayers, and then the Spirit of God does not leave us even with that, He goes on to give us a view, a beautiful picture, how they were together, "all that believed were together". That is not the same position exactly as the first. The first is they were all together in one place, but now they are on another basis, meaning they are always together; in principle, as they go they go where the brethren were, "they came to their own company", as it says in chapter 4; "their own", to such as they call their own; they went there after they were let go; the earlier company was not their own. That is what we get in the beginning, and then in chapter 2 it says the Lord added; now He is doing it as if to honour what is there. He added such as should be saved, that is, such as are marked out in the thoughts of God to be saved, and that brings me back to what I have in mind in this chapter that in order to get a right view of the saints we must go back to the divine thought about them. "Those that were to be saved" implied previous thoughts; they were such, and the Lord had these in mind. He was working and it was not merely what He had, but what was intended He should get, that was the idea, and He was adding them to what was there; no incongruous material is suggested at all, they are in keeping with what was there. The Lord added to what was there; they were suited to it, that is the idea; any sort of material will not do, all incoming material is in keeping with what exists and what exists is glorious.

I would like to work these thoughts out, dear brethren, and one thing to be noted is that it is in view of the divine economy which is set up in love. That is another great thought, it is a love matter, that is, the One taken up to administer is loved.

"The Father loves the Son, and has given all things to be in his hand" (John 3:35). Now in chapter 7 of John, it says "the Spirit was not yet, because Jesus had not yet been glorified". The Spirit is in mind, but it is the Spirit of Christ glorified that is in mind; He was not yet given because that Jesus was not yet glorified. The great thought of glory enters into the gift of the Spirit, for indeed He is said to be the Spirit of glory, and not only that but it rests upon believers in certain circumstances so that he is the means here of effectuating glory in believers. John has a great deal to say about the word 'glory', and stresses much the "glory as of an only-begotten with a father", as suggestive of what he has in mind, "a glory as of an only-begotten with a father, full of grace and truth" (chapter 1:14), meaning that the bearing of it is towards the believer, and that his particular need in this world is in mind. It is all a question of effectuating the thought of God in the scene of need, so that the One that is seen is glorious, that is everything that is of account has glory, the "glory as of an only-begotten with a father" is "full of grace and truth", full of it. These are initial thoughts in the divine economy in John's gospel; love is the basis, but displayed in grace and truth as meeting need so as to bring about the divine thoughts. Grace first, then truth, and then the Son is loved and all things are given into His hand, and then an example in chapter 4 of how the thing works. He goes His way, as is said, "full of grace and truth", all that transpires illustrating what it means, so that at the end of John 3 we have the statement, "The Father loves the Son, and has given all things to be in his hand", and then immediately the wonderful story in John 4 already alluded to, among many other remarkable things. That story is intended to exemplify the economy: what it really means is the working out that the Lord is full of grace and truth; it is exemplified at the well, "full of grace and

truth". He, in working that out, brings out who was there; and that is another thing, dear brethren, we want to keep clearly before us, with whom we have to do in this great matter. "If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that says to thee, Give me to drink", who it is. That is another great feature that stands out in the great economy, that the truth regarding the Person of Christ is built up in the subjects of grace; and so it was, even in His dealings with such a wicked person as the woman in John 4. God takes up such to show what He can do. The wonderful features were furnishings in the economy. It is wonderful how He can effect His thoughts, and God takes up such to show what He can do in spite of the most obstinate circumstances; what could be more unlikely with such material as He had before Him, and yet He was there, full of grace and truth. He was operating in an economy based on love, full of grace and truth. "The Father loves the Son", but in the working out of it He is full of grace and truth, and hence the success of the story. The economy is successful, there is no mistake about it. No matter what are the external appearances of christianity the economy is successful, the result will show the infinite success of it. That He is full of grace and truth and is loved of the Father, is kept clearly before us. The Lord says to the woman, "If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that says to thee, Give me to drink", that is, who it is that has come down so low, that is actually asking you, an outcast as it were, one having no place in society, asking you for a drink of water, who it is. That has all to be built into our souls, dear brethren, hence the exemplification of the economy, the result being more than successful in that woman. The Spirit there is brought out as a gift, but in chapter 7 it is the Spirit as received. Notice, the Spirit is to be received, for the truth is never effective until we have the idea of

reception. The most perfect thoughts may be presented to us and admired; for example, "Never man spake thus, as this man speaks", but the reception of the things shows its effectiveness: "But this he said concerning the Spirit, which they that believed on him were about to receive". In chapter 4 it is given, but in chapter 7 it is "were about to receive". It would be a historic matter that certain who believe should receive the Spirit. But what Spirit? The Spirit of Christ glorified, that is the Spirit sent down by Christ glorified; but "the Spirit was not yet, because Jesus had not yet been glorified".

Well now, that brings me to another point, that divine thoughts and purposes are the background of what I am saying, and how God reaches the thought of glory in them so that what I have said about John 7 leads me to speak about the Spirit in Romans, how He comes in in Romans as shedding abroad the love of God in our hearts. The position is carefully selected by the Holy Spirit, it is "in our hearts"; the love of God is shed abroad there by the Holy Spirit. Now that, I believe, may be fitted in in Luke, the well-known chapter 15. The prodigal has reached the end there, and I can see as reading it from time to time that divine thoughts must underlie all; that is, the prior thoughts of God; He is always working from His own thoughts. What happened in the history of humanity enables the Lord to work out what He does in the parable, but He is thinking of divine thoughts, that is, what is lost is valuable. The sheep is lost -- it is valuable; the piece of money is lost -- it is valuable; the son is lost -- he is valuable. It is the divine thought of things, and the more we get back to that, dear brethren, the more assuredly it will be in our souls; as it is said in Romans 9:23, "vessels of mercy, which he had before prepared for glory, us". Now notice that, "Before prepared for glory"; they were in the mind of God. There is not

one, who is a christian, who was not in the mind of God in this way, "before prepared". God had us in His mind and He intends that His thoughts should be worked out. What can be more interesting to God, or to those who come into the gain of His thoughts, than to follow the course of the working out of things and to understand the motive behind the working, what is in the mind of God? So the father of the prodigal is said to cover the son with kisses, the returning one. That all refers to his prior thoughts about him; that son had a place, and there were prior thoughts in regard of him, prior affections too. Well, if the father kisses, as in the parable, we see it is God, and if He kisses there is something to convey, there is some warmth in the kiss, some power to convey what is behind the kiss. There can be no doubt that the Spirit of God is included. Well, it is through the Spirit of God that everything is operated down here, all these personal transactions, so that all is now a question of the Spirit of God. The three Persons are in the economy; the Spirit is the feeling side of the position, not that any One of the divine Persons does not feel. We have in Scripture the idea of the Spirit given to us, the Spirit as a Person given to the saints, but then we have also the idea of God giving us part in His Spirit, and having part in the Spirit is the most intimate way of apprehending God. By His Spirit we get the inner thoughts of God, if I may speak thus, the depths of feelings, "depths of God", as it is called! (1 Corinthians 2:10). The Spirit searches "the depths of God", the inner thoughts of God; we get that in the Spirit. In the economy of christianity the Spirit is down here; He is immediate in everything, even in new birth, in sealing, in anointing. He is immediate; that is to say, God is dealing with us in the most intimate way, in the most feeling way so as to cause us to feel; hence if the Father kisses, it says "he covered him with

kisses", he kissed him ardently; well, that must be by the Spirit. I am not overstressing the truth at all, because in the economy the Spirit is here. It is God here by the Spirit, and here immediately in that way to do with us directly, and if it be a question of expressing love, if He feels compassionately with us, and He does too, the Spirit makes intercession for us, He intercedes for us. If God is to make His love felt, to make it known, if this is to be a real love matter in my heart, the Spirit is the medium of that. Love is put there by the Spirit which is given to us. Well now, I am sure the prodigal was right to carry the gift of love of the Spirit into the kiss; love is shed abroad by the Spirit; this enters into the kiss, for the kiss must be felt, and it is a real thing with God, God is doing it Himself, and it is the investiture of love, "the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit which has been given to us". We are invested with love. Well, is that not investing with glory? I think it is; I know it is. We are invested with glory. It is from the divine side, but God has seen to it; He has operated in the most intimate way by His Spirit and there is feeling, and in the investment with the best robe it is as if God would say, 'I am going to make the very best out of it, my best thoughts, my eternal thoughts are to be worked out in you'. What great things these are! Is there any one of us who is isolating himself from God? He says, as it were, 'I am taking you up and I am going to make My very best thoughts work out in you and it is going to be a festival matter'; so that the best robe is to be brought forth, He says, "Bring out the best robe". The bondmen are asked to do that, they are thoroughly in sympathy with the system of things. We are brought into a living system of things where there is love, where there is subjection to God and readiness to carry out His thoughts. "Bring out the best robe and clothe him

in it"; it is all there, the divine side to bring out the best for me if I am to be the subject of God's operations, His very best thoughts. And he is invested with a ring, and that shows him set up before God; so that you can see how that person not only is to be brought into the house, but the fact of the matter is he represents the divine thought of christianity, which is to be built up in our minds. It is largely a question of getting right thoughts and the Holy Spirit working them out in us; that is the idea. We get the house mentioned, but it is not said that he is brought in; the thing is there, the divine thought is there. If I get the divine thought, that is the thing; it is the very best of God's thoughts, and that is now here on earth, for Luke 15 is not a question of heaven, it is here, the present working out of glory and there is the music and dancing all going with that. Well, you can see, dear brethren, if I am to be in that I need to be glorified. I hope to show it more completely in John 17. I am speaking now about God reaching His end: "All things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to purpose", and then it goes on to say, "Whom he has predestinated, these also he has called; and whom he has called, these also he has justified; but whom he has justified, these also he has glorified", that is, the whole thing is there. This is what He is working out here, He is working out glory, a system of glory, and everyone is to be brought into that and to fit into it; it has been invested with glory and I am to fit into it.

Then in Romans 9 we have the thought of a vessel, bringing it down to each believer, brought down here, as it says, "Us, whom he has also called, not only from amongst the Jews, but also from amongst the nations", even 'us', who were once at a distance. He is speaking of persons reached, existing there, persons to whom Paul was writing in Rome, even 'us'. One loves to take these thoughts in, how the

apostle would impress it upon the Roman christians; he had not been there, but you can understand the christians reading his letter. I suppose they would read it many times; no doubt they were called together to read it; it had evidently been carried to them by Phoebe, a worthy person. How glorious she was! How she travelled I do not know, but she was glorious. He speaks of her in the most respectful terms as a sister; she was a servant of the assembly at Cenchrea; she was a noble sort of person, not only in her status of life but spiritually; she was a noble sort of person and was commended too by the apostle; she evidently carried this letter. How she would value and treasure it! I certainly should if I had the responsibility or charge of it; there was not another epistle like it. What a treasure it was! That she was invested with what she was given, is manifest; she carried it to Rome and we can understand what a time they would have, dear brethren, for the saints would be called together to read this beautiful epistle. I would have liked to have been there to listen to the first reading of it. How it moved the heart of the apostle in his desire for the saints whom he knew there! He knew a good many there, but did not know them all, and as he comes to this 24th verse he says, "Vessels of mercy, which he had before prepared for glory, us".

One can understand a spiritual brother reading that letter and how he would say, 'Now we are together, dear brethren, what do you think of that?' What do you feel about that? Even us, we ourselves, aforetime prepared for glory; God has been thinking of us and He is going to set forth the best of His glory, the riches of His glory, as it is. He knows us before, but we are here where He is seeking us, and He is going to set forth the riches of His glory in His operations, so that He has us standing out glorious; you see "whom he has justified, these also he has

glorified". The assembly is in that way formed, but Paul does not go very far on that line. He does not go far on the road but he is certainly preparing the ground. There is one vein running through Romans, the value of the saints, what they are to God, what He thought of them, and how He is making everything to work together for good. They are vessels of mercy afore prepared for glory. God has had them much in His mind, and the vein that runs through is how we are to respect the brethren. I have often said, and others too, that you never love a person you do not respect; it is a simple matter.

The apostle salutes the saints many times in the last chapter; bringing in Phoebe first, he begins with her, and then he goes on to a brother and his wife, and runs down the list saying "Salute", "Salute". I should have looked round and said, 'Is Aquila here tonight?' How much he would have missed if he were absent from the reading of that! If I had been living in Rome I should have thought more of Aquila than I used to, and certainly more of Priscilla. They represent the marital idea amongst us, they only had one neck, they staked their neck for Paul; that is, they were a married couple; marriage has a great place in the testimony, and these two were united in regard to the testimony; they staked their neck for Paul. I can understand a person, perhaps some young believer in Rome who had never heard of Aquila and Priscilla, who did not even know of Paul, he would certainly regard them more definitely than hitherto, and that is the intent, dear brethren. The Spirit of God would magnify the brethren in our eyes that we might respect them, and as respecting them love them. And so, as I have said, we have here vessels "before prepared for glory". Then the apostle goes on (verse 26) to speak about them, quoting from the prophet Hosea, "And it shall be, in the place where it was said to them, Ye are not my

people, there shall they be called Sons of the living God" (chapter 1:10). Maybe this comes with more force in this city than others; that is, in the place where we have been justified, we have been glorified. It is worth the while to go through things with God, but how glorious that here "shall they be called Sons of the living God"! What does it mean? I must respect them, the sons of the living God. When I think of the Jews today and their history, what pressure has come upon them, in a certain sense well merited -- not that I would say anything much, for the meanness of human nature is in me just the same, only the circumstances have not been gone through -- but meanness is there, unspeakable meanness in human nature, and opprobrium has been rolled in upon them from the outset until this very time; yet God's eye is upon them where all this has been poured out upon them. They are not regarded as God's people, but there, in that place, "They shall be called Sons of the living God". What dignity, dear brethren, is seen! As I see that, my thoughts change about the brethren, I begin to see that where I despised them God has set them up there in dignity. That is what He has worked out and He would work out glory in us; all things are working for glory, that glory might shine in the place where dishonour was, through the "Sons of the living God".

Now that leads me to speak about John 17 which is the final and greatest thought. The chapter is full of glory, this wonderful prayer to the Father, the Lord Jesus lifting up His eyes to heaven. There is no more glorious scene than that conceivable, "a glory as of an only-begotten with a father", spoken of at the beginning. Think of what this was to heaven. Luke gives us His praying at the Jordan; he gives that side, John does not. As the Lord was praying the heavens were opened; think of what heaven saw, the inner movements of that heart of

God; as He was praying, having been baptised, "all the people having been baptised", Jesus coming in last. The divine eye would and did see them all, for Jerusalem and all Judaea came, and all the countryside came, a remarkable movement. Jesus came from Galilee, He came from the despised spot to be baptised, and all the people being baptised, "and Jesus having been baptised and praying", directly the heaven opened, "and a voice came out of heaven" and addressed Him. What a scene of glory that was! Could any see it? Could any understand it? I have often thought of that scene and what any devoted person, being there from Jerusalem or from Galilee, when returning would say they saw, 'Oh! what a day we have had today!' What a day it was, the heaven opened and spoke! What a day it was! What glory! "Thou art my beloved Son, in thee I have found my delight" (Luke 3:21,22). He was found. The divine eye had no doubt passed over all the others. Some of us were speaking about that lately, as in Jesse's house, Samuel's eye passed over the seven sons of Jesse and he had to say 'No, no'. Here is one Man who has come from Galilee and He is baptised. He is the last one. David was the last, he was hardly thought of. John has to say, 'There is One in your midst, whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose. He is preferred before me, great as you think I am, He is preferred before me'. John knew, he tells us he knew. What, a scene it was for him! The heaven was opened, and the voice came, "Thou art my beloved Son, in thee I have found my delight", and so here, what a scene of glory opens up to us as the Son lifts up His eyes to heaven! It is said, "These things Jesus spoke, and lifted up his eyes to heaven and said, Father". We do not have that in the Jordan; the background of the prayer here is the chapters that precede. The words of Jesus illuminate our souls as to the place as we peruse these chapters,

and it would be worth while to do it. May God grant that we may do so, in order that we may understand the Father and the Son, and our place in Their minds. What a place we have in Their minds! He lifted up His eyes to heaven and He begins to speak; He speaks about glory. He tells His Father He has glorified Him on the earth, and He asks the Father to glorify Him "with the glory which I had along with thee before the world was", and He asks Him also to glorify them all. Think of such thoughts being brought to our ears, dear brethren; but now He comes to this matter of glory conferred on the saints, "And the glory which thou hast given me I have given them". He said that. He did not pray for the apostles only, "but also for those who believe on me through their word", those the Father gave to Him; and He goes on to say "The glory which thou hast given me I have given them", and then He adds, "That they may be one, as we are one". My purpose in reading this is to point out that aside from glory, being invested with glory, there cannot be unity according to God. Then you may say, 'What is this glory?' Well, I have been speaking of glory in Romans, but then what is this glory the Lord has in mind? It is that the saints should be one, and one according to the highest standard, that is, as He says, "That they may be one, as we are one", that is the standard. Think of the glory that radiated between the Father and the Son! What glory there was! What perfect unity in that glory! Glory is really the outshining of what persons are, and the glory radiated as the Father looked into those eyes, the Son lifting up His eyes to heaven and speaking about glory. Now He comes to the saints in regard of unity, having unity in His mind, and He says, "The glory which thou hast given me I have given them, that they may be one, as we are one". Well, what is this that He could give to us? The prophet

Hosea speaks, and Paul cites it, of the place where we are said not to be God's people; it is a very trying, testing thing to be regarded in that way; to be stripped of our privileges, for it to be said of us, 'not of God' as we say, having lost assembly status. It is a very testing thing, but how glorious to be honoured of God and honoured in this way, "There shall they be called Sons of the living God", where they were dishonoured, where they were despised, where they were refused their privileges, where they had lost them, they are now addressed as "Sons of the living God". How God has set us up in victory, called us the sons of the living God. It refers to the position down here in testimony; it is a life of testing here, it is a question of life, the sons of the living God. And this fits in, I believe, with "the glory which thou hast given me". Well, on the banks of the Jordan, the voice was "Thou art my beloved Son". Why that should be said to Him, few could know. It is a question of glory conferred, but sonship was there, of course. But why should it be the Son on whom glory is conferred? It is publicly conferred upon Him, "Thou art my beloved Son, in thee I have found my delight". Well, the Lord has given that to us, dear brethren. It is not only that we are "called Sons of the living God", but we are sons of God according to the heavenly calling; we belong to heaven, for sonship is heavenly as regards us. He is bringing many sons to glory; think of that, to glory! He conferred it, as it were, on Him, not that it was not there, it was there, as He had said at the age of twelve, "Did ye not know that I ought to be occupied in my Father's business?" (Luke 2:49). That was the sense of sonship. He knew it was there, but then the time came, "Jesus himself was beginning to be about thirty years old" (Luke 3:23), and the thing is conferred, it is glory conferred. What a great thing it was! The Scriptures had accredited it to the Messiah, but now

it is openly conferred upon Him, and on the ground of what was found in Him. It is a thought with regard to what was there, the actual thing was there, response to God; that is what I understand. So He says, "The glory which thou hast given me I have given them, that they may be one, as we are one", as looking up to His Father in infinite unity in what They were doing. "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30). It is a question of the unity down here, and of glory conferred, glory given, "The glory which thou hast given me I have given them, that they may be one, as we are one".

That is all I have to say about this wonderful chapter, but my thought is to bring us into practical unity, and that it is in glory being given that we are glorified, that the whole domain into which we are brought is glorious. We do not want to be out of it, we do not want to appear in any way as awkward, as unsuited to the place. The prodigal, as we have often said, was fitted for it; the idea of the house was in him, he was kissed, he was robed, he was ringed and shod, he was the whole divine idea of glorification of the believer. May the Lord bless the word.

ENERGY IN GOING THE WHOLE WAY

Luke 16:16; 1 Timothy 6:12; Philippians 3:12 - 14; 1 Chronicles 18:3

These scriptures have been read because they bring to our attention energy in relation to the things of God, so that is what will engage us, by the Lord's help, during this service, and I would add, thoroughness in the energy. The world has made rapid strides of recent years in the way of energy, and increased education has promoted the acquirement of thoroughness. The christian is set in these circumstances, among many others, and in them God would lay it upon him to encounter them in the way of energy in regard of His world, and thoroughness also, that is to say, going the full length in regard to any and every feature of the truth and any line divinely indicated, for half measures are well nigh equal to no measures at all. Not that heaven is not ready to accredit us with any interest or any movement at all, for even in a man like Ahab, God says, "Seest thou how Ahab humbleth himself before me?" (1 Kings 21:29). There is not a movement of heart or mind or affection in regard of God or His things or His people that is not noted in heaven. But, at the same time, our salvation, practically, depends on going all the way, especially now that we are drawing near to the end of this wonderful period called "the acceptable year of the Lord" (Luke 4:19). The time of the end is manifestly near and the Spirit of God would be urgent, pressing upon us to go on to perfection, one saying, "If he draw back, my soul does not take pleasure in him", but remarking further, "But we are not drawers back to perdition, but of faith to saving the soul" (Hebrews 10:38,39).

Now the first scripture that I read treats of the kingdom of God in a very remarkable way, the Lord saying that "the law and the prophets were until

John: from that time the glad tidings of the kingdom of God are announced, and everyone forces his way into it". The law and the prophets represented a great period, yet we have to remember that the law made nothing perfect; still there was a great period of testimony from Moses till Malachi, and indeed up to John the baptist. No lapse is supposed, no interval of inactivity of any kind by God, the preaching of the kingdom was from the days of John the baptist; and I wish to speak of that first, that the preaching of it brought out energy, not the want of energy that is often seen in believers listening to ministry, perhaps to the gospel, and returning home forgetting what they heard. The preaching brought out energy, and that is what is needed in all these matters, but particularly now in regard to the kingdom of God. Daniel had already spoken of the kingdom of God, indeed it had been intimated throughout in the law and the prophets, but I speak of Daniel so as to enlist the sympathy and interest, and to call out the energy of young people, first of all. Daniel in his interpretation of Nebuchadnezzar's dream, arrived at the stone cut out without hands, and he says, "In the days of these kings" (Daniel 2:44), that is, the four great monarchies that we often speak of and which are now commanding the attention peculiarly of those who have eyes to see. The Lord Himself spoke of them, calling the period the times of the nations, or gentiles, and Daniel tells Nebuchadnezzar that in those days, in the days of those kings, the God of the heavens shall set up a kingdom. Now I wish the young people here particularly to pay attention to what is being said, for young people are apt to droop, in having to do with the world as it is in its energy in this great iron age, as the scripture regards it; not all iron, it is partly clay, hard and fragile at the same time, but it is very imposing, and young people are at times overwhelmed as they see the marvellous

strides that are made in energy and power and apparent results. But it is in those days, in the days of those kings, that the God of the heavens sets up a kingdom. If you will allow me the time, I will read the verses so as to have the facts clearly before us: "And in the days of these kings shall the God of the heavens set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the sovereignty thereof shall not be left to another people: it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, but itself shall stand for ever. Forasmuch as thou sawest that a stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold, -- the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter. And the dream is certain, and the interpretation of it sure" (Daniel 2:44,45). The feature of it presented here is perhaps future, but the power contemplated is now as much as it will be then, only taking another form. Mark 9:1 tells us that the Lord said, "There are some of those standing here that shall not taste death until they shall have seen the kingdom of God come in power".

Now this is a matter for young people, as I said, and the word is to force our way into it. Instead of shaping entirely in regard of this world, as many, alas, do, let us take a word here from the Lord, "every one forces his way into it". You may say, 'What does forcing my way into it mean? Has it tangible intelligibleness?' It has, beloved friends. Many of us here know that it has, many of us here have forced our way into it, and we have proved it to involve power. The Lord said, as the Pharisees enquired as to whether it should come with observation, "The kingdom of God does not come with observation" (Luke 17:20), not in its then form, nor in its present form. It will come with observation presently when the Son of man shall appear as the

lightning from the east to the west, but now it is a moral thing and challenges uprightness of heart in us. It exists, and so the Lord says in the next verse, "The kingdom of God is in the midst of you". That puts it upon us, beloved young people, for it is to you I speak for the moment, to find it. That it exists is unquestionable, hundreds here tonight are witnesses to it, to the actuality of it. There is not time to go into the details, I am just pressing one point and that is, that it exists, and the Lord indicates the manner of its existence at the present time, that it was there in His Person; His presence here on earth involved the kingdom of God in the midst of them. So, now He has gone up to heaven, the Spirit of God here involves it for us; so that it exists, and a large part of the New Testament is taken up with instructing us as to it. First, as to the sovereign work of God in our souls, the Lord says, "Except any one be born anew he cannot see the kingdom of God", and then, "Except any one be born of water and of Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God" (John 3:3,5). So that that is the challenge. The new birth lies at the foundation of the thought, but the kingdom itself is established in Christ in heaven and made effective down here by the power of the Spirit. There is no mistake about it, and the Lord would lay it upon everyone to force his way into it. Failing to do it, you will be carried along in the energetic world that is around us, leading to perdition. There is no use in mincing words; the drift is swift, and we know whence it comes and whither it goes, and young people need to be on the alert to escape it, and to escape the corruption that is in the world, coming under the authority of Christ, and in that way, in subjection, coming into the reality of the presence and operations of the Spirit here below. Salvation lies there, salvation from the world as it is, as I have been saying.

Well, I go on to the next thought, and that is eternal life. I am hoping to get on to David at the

end, so as to bring all of us who have in any little way touched the heavenly side, into the scope of the inheritance, extending out to the Euphrates; I want to speak about that particularly at the end. I am speaking now of entrance into the truth from the normal side, as each believer experiences salvation, deliverance, eternal life, and the heavenly calling. As we reach the elevated level of the heavenly calling, then we are morally equal to looking out toward the utmost limit of the inheritance, so as not to let one iota of it slip away. God is laying this upon us, that there is not to be one foot of the inheritance allowed in the enemy's hands. We have to reach the David position for that, which I hope to touch on, but eternal life comes in on the way, and, significantly enough, we have the same thought of laying hold of it, as it were, stretching out for it. It is presented to us, of course, in the gospel, but it is put upon us now. I would speak to a young man, "Ye are strong", says the apostle John, "and the word of God abides in you" (1 John 2:14). It requires that; it is not a mere matter of light now. Timothy was beyond that limit, he had advanced in the truth; he was a young man, and he is a type for us, for, although engaged in the service and effective too in it, we may miss this great matter of laying hold of eternal life. As I said, so that no one should misunderstand, it is presented to us in the gospel; it is proposed in it, that "God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whosoever believes on him may not perish, but have life eternal" (John 3:16). There is no mistake about that, as to what is in God's mind; Timothy had that, you may be sure, he had that light, that faith. He had developed from his childhood in the Scriptures, and the Old Testament scriptures had taught this matter, had spoken of eternal life. Timothy would not miss it; we may be sure his mother and grandmother would call

attention to the mention of it in the Scriptures, so that he would understand what the apostle said, "Lay hold of eternal life".

Well, lest anybody should be in any way beclouded by what I am saying, the way of this is very elaborately set out in Scripture. What is put in a few words in one setting is elaborately set out in another. What would Timothy do, think you, as he read this part of Paul's letter as to eternal life? 'I have read about eternal life', he would say, 'I have heard Paul speak of it; it may be Paul thinks I am neglecting it; very likely I am'. It is a wholesome thing to challenge ourselves in that way: 'Why should Paul say that to me? He knows well enough that I believe his doctrines, I follow them up; why should he say that to me?' And what would be the normal result of such a challenge to his own heart? Why, to turn up the Scriptures in dependence on the Lord and see what they teach us as to the matter, and what this laying hold of it means. The epistle to the Romans was written at this time, and Timothy doubtless knew about it. That epistle would tell him that grace reigns "through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Romans 5:21). It is not 'in' there, but "through". He would stop at that preposition, and he would say, 'Well, the Lord Jesus Christ has effected this matter, it is through Him', and he would turn over the page into chapter 6, and he would find at the end of chapter 6, that it is "fruit unto holiness, and the end eternal life". Well, he would say, that is another side to the picture. Chapter 5 (they did not have chapters, of course, in those days) says, "through Jesus Christ our Lord". All these 'throughs' refer to His gracious service, costing Him so much, "so also grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord". Timothy would say to himself, 'At what cost! I see it is

available to me on that line'. But the next paragraph begins with baptism; entering into it, laying hold of it, is on that line.

What comes to me through the Lord Jesus Christ is a matter to be believed, it is a matter for faith. It is a great section of "the faith once delivered to the saints" (Jude 3), but baptism is the next point, and if Philip touched on that point in speaking to the Ethiopian eunuch, it would make all the more forceful in his mind the necessity for baptism. Am I to live here as I used to? Am I to turn the grace of God into lasciviousness in going on with the world when this great blessing has been brought close to me through our Lord Jesus Christ at such infinite cost to Himself? Impossible! "We who have died to sin, how shall we still live in it?". That is the question. Baptism is the figure (I am speaking simply, dear brethren) of Christ's death, but, mark you, it is unto his death, "As many as have been baptised unto Christ Jesus, have been baptised unto his death". There is salvation by water in Peter; that does not cost us any suffering. What it prefigured cost Christ intense suffering, but not me. But if I am to be saved by fire, it will cost me something, it is a terrible thing to be saved by fire. It means that my works are burnt up and I am just saved. Is it not likely that definite feelings will pass through my mind and heart if I am saved by fire; why should it be so? But water is a symbol of the sufferings of Another, not my own. I am speaking now for a moment so that you may get the idea of laying hold of eternal life; Romans 6 is the way. I cannot go into Romans 6 now, but I just direct you to it, that is another line. In Romans 6 eternal life is seen in a Person, in Christ Jesus, not through Him, but in Him. Now I know where it is. In chapter 5 it is a great general thought effected by Christ, through Him, to be appropriated by me, but surely I want to know where it is. Romans 6 tells

me where it is, and it shows me the way to it, and, as I said, it begins with baptism, not only to Christ but to His death. Complete submission to the will of God is the teaching of the chapter, "righteousness unto holiness", and the end "eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord". "But now, having got your freedom from sin, and having become bondmen to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end eternal life. For the wages of sin is death; but the act of favour of God, eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord". There it is.

I will endeavour to make the thing a little clearer, if I may, so that young people here may not think that it is so very far away from them. Years ago, when this was the great theme and the occasion of great conflict (thank God for that, and for the victory of it!) I used to think it was a great thing at a distance I had not touched. But in the measure, dear brethren, however small, in which we have touched it, I think we understand it, and the divine teaching runs on that line, so it is not so far away from us. If you will allow me to be very simple, the atmosphere of it is right here where we are. How very different each one of us feels here from what he would feel out in the street where sin is rampant! How different the atmosphere! How different the feeling! What a sense of subjection to God! That is the thought, and I speak thus that no one might think it is far out of his way; it is not, you have tasted it already. Timothy had tasted it undoubtedly. How could he be in the apostle's company, as he used to be, without realising something of the heavenly breath, of what that great servant of God was experiencing constantly? You could not be in his company without it, and suppose you had others like him, for there were many like him in those days, how a young man like Timothy, coming into the company of those christians, those children of God,

would breathe the atmosphere of heaven, a righteous holy atmosphere. Well, but it needs more than that. The apostle would speak about it to Timothy, and Timothy would feel he would like to know what the apostle knew, and, beloved brethren, it is well for us to listen to Paul in regard of himself. I suppose nobody in Scripture speaks more of himself than Paul; you wonder why. I will tell you why. He is worth speaking about. Aside from Christ, I do not know a man in the universe more worth speaking of than Paul. What a mighty product of the work of God he is, and particularly as to intelligence, "Ye can understand my intelligence in the mystery", he says (Ephesians 3:4). Why? That they might set the pace faster. Why am I so far behind? That is God's way. So, in regard to this great matter, we need to know, and that is what John wrote his epistle for. "These things have I written to you that ye may know" (1 John 5:13). That word 'know' refers to conscious knowledge; it is not simply objective knowledge, what I know in Christ; it is what I have got consciously. The apostle John by the Spirit of God wrote his epistle that the saints might know they had eternal life as believing on the Son. No doubt they knew it, as many of us do, without understanding it or tasting it, but he says, "These things have I written to you that ye may know that ye have eternal life who believe on the name of the Son of God", that you might have the consciousness of eternal life as believing on the Son of God. And so to make the thing simple, he begins with the neuter, "That which was from the beginning", and then he speaks about fellowship. I am seeking to draw you into the line.

Romans shows us how an individual progresses from righteousness unto holiness and the end eternal life in Christ Jesus. John brings in fellowship at once, "that which we have seen and heard we report to you, that ye also may have fellowship with us";

they had a peculiar status with God in this matter -- "And our fellowship is indeed with the Father", he says, "and with his Son Jesus Christ. And these things write we to you that your joy may be full". Well, you say, what about that? Is there anyone here who has not had a little bit of joy in the company of the brethren? I doubt if there is. It may pass off, but it is there; the apostle would have it to be full and to stay. Joy is a great matter in the Scriptures, and so he speaks about fellowship, "That ye also may have fellowship with us"; that is, that the saints might be drawn into this great matter of the apostles, what they were going on with. A new world had been inaugurated through them, and in it was this great matter of eternal life, and it is initially a matter of fellowship, "fellowship with us", that is, laying hold on what they were doing and being with them in it. Take the lame man in Acts 3; he held Peter and John, he had got into fellowship. Would he not breathe this great thing in that fellowship? He would. You find him standing by them; he needed them too, he was a witness to the power of God through them; he held them, he was with them in what they were doing. But then the apostle John goes on to say, "If we walk in the light as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another" (1 John 1:7). We have not got the apostles now but we have one another. That is a beautiful phrase, "one another"; we have one another. I thank God for the brethren always, "one another", "we have fellowship with one another". The word there is not simply that I love the brethren, but I have got fellowship with them, I am in the thing, we have partnership together. We are sustained in the position, and "the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanses us from all sin". Well, what do we get there? We get a holy healthful atmosphere as walking in the light as God is in the light.

You may see the thing from the Psalms, which are more than a type. The Songs of degrees really have in mind the way to it as amplified in the New Testament, until we reach Psalm 133 and there the blessing is commanded under certain conditions, namely, unity among the brethren; brethren dwelling, not now simply in fellowship, but dwelling together in unity. Well, that is a happy state of things, and the word is, "there hath Jehovah commanded the blessing". That word 'commanded' is to make the thing fixed, that the thing that I am so enjoying, that God calls the blessing, is a fixed thing now. It is a great thought, beloved, to reach in one's soul the sense of blessing, of eternal life as a blessing, and that it is a fixed thing by the divine commandment, "For he spoke, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast" (Psalm 33:9). The speaking really is in the Songs of degrees; if I go through those psalms my heart will be illuminated and my mind drawn into another order of things altogether. "I rejoiced", said one, "when they said unto me, Let us go into the house of Jehovah" (Psalm 122:1). "Jerusalem", he says, "which art built as a city that is compact together, Whither the tribes go up". What a grand thought that is, of the tribes; and the progress reaches the summit morally, for it is an elevated mountain, indeed it is plural, "the mountains of Zion". As one thinks of the mount Zion, one is impressed by the language. It is a question of how God reaches our minds in "the mountains of Zion", something coming down from heaven like "the dew of Hermon that descendeth on the mountains of Zion". It is "there hath Jehovah commanded the blessing, life for evermore". That is the last but one of the Songs of degrees; the next one refers to the priests serving God.

Well now, is there a christian here who does not follow that, what it is to be amongst the brethren in

holy unity, with a sense of heaven's influence upon us? Thank God I have experienced it. Even in the house of prayer, God says, 'I will make you glad there'. There is a sense of heaven coming down there making us glad; that is the idea. If I get the idea I will follow it out; the mind has a great deal to do with it. So, as I said, the epistle of John brings the saints before us, and then, in the last chapter, the teaching of the water and the blood. That is to say, I am ready now for that. "This is he that came by water and blood, Jesus the Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that bears witness, for the Spirit is the truth" (1 John 5:6). Now, am I ready for that? I have tasted something (the word 'taste' is important) of this heavenly joy and I cannot afford to surrender it. There is more beyond; I must go in for it; it must not elude me, it is too important. As it says a little lower down in 1 Timothy 6:19, "Lay hold of what is really life".

To go on now to Philippians, of course, I have to speak to those who are advanced (and yet I must speak to all!), there you get the greatest evidence of energy, and that is in the apostle himself actually telling us that he did not count he had already attained. It is encouraging to think of such a man as that making such an admission. In spite of his knowledge, in spite of his great progress, he says, "Not that I have already obtained the prize, or am already perfected". I should like to have heard him say that. And so he goes on to say, "I pursue, looking towards the goal". That word 'goal' is something for the mind, for the eye; it is, of course, an athletic figure, that is, you have something in the distance, like that which Balaam, "the man of opened eye" (Numbers 24:3), saw! But what did the apostle Paul see? He actually saw the goal. I think the Lord is keeping this before us, dear brethren. The time is short now,

and we do not want to miss this great matter; the Spirit of God does not shrink from using an athletic figure so as to bring home to us the necessity for energy in these matters. The apostle actually sees the thing in the distance, but he says, 'I have not reached it'; and so he stretches out, as he says, "towards the goal, for the prize". The prize is a different thing from the goal; the goal is the end of the race, "for the prize of the calling on high of God in Christ Jesus". That is one of the finest bits of language you can get. Here is a man who is thoroughly set for one end, "but one thing" he does. Not that he was not doing other things, you understand, but this is the supreme thing, this is the thing I cannot neglect. "But one thing -- forgetting the things behind, and stretching out to the things before, I pursue, looking towards the goal, for the prize of the calling on high of God in Christ Jesus". There is but one step into heaven, such a one is ready to step into heaven. Would you not like to feel like that? I should, certainly. No stranger now, and one, as it were, steps into heaven in that attitude, in that state of soul. When the Lord comes you will be perfectly at home there, no stranger. Well, that is the goal, "for the prize of the calling on high of God in Christ Jesus".

Now I come back to what I spoke of to just briefly remark on how such a person, such a believer, scans the whole domain of divine territory, and that includes every inch from the great western sea to the Euphrates. It is very remarkable that it is in David you get this thought in his establishing his dominion on the Euphrates, and that leads me, dear brethren, to review the ground I have covered from another angle altogether, from the moral altitude spoken of in Philippians, and confirmed in Ephesians doctrinally, that the heavenly man turns round, as it were, and looks at the whole territory divinely

given. There is no word about the Euphrates when Israel had passed the brazen serpent; it was Canaan all the time, that is the heavenly land that Paul had in his mind. But now David has come, and he is, as we might say, at the very summit. In 2 Samuel David ascends from Ziklag to Hebron, and from Hebron to Jerusalem. That is, God has brought the people in. "Thou shalt bring them in, and plant them in the mountain of thine inheritance, the place that thou, Jehovah, hast made thy dwelling" (Exodus 15:17). We reach that in David, a wonderful thought! Joshua did not do that; he brought them into Canaan but not to Zion, and although Joshua had the Euphrates pointed out to him by Jehovah, he did not extend his conquest there. It remained for David. That is our own position, dear brethren; let us not let a foot of it go, not a inch of it. Jephthah contended for part of this territory in Judges 11, but he could not contend for it as David did. He spoke wonderfully, but he was a Gileadite, not a man of Canaan. God has brought us to the Canaan side of the position, and one would urge on the brethren not to surrender it for a moment, it is too precious. It is not only the land, but "the place that thou, Jehovah, hast made thy dwelling". That is David and Solomon. Secured there, we cast our eye towards the East, to the Euphrates, and in true David-like energy and military skill, the territory has to be secured, the dominion established. And, dear brethren, it is not merely in holding the doctrine as to it that it is garrisoned, but the great thought with David is not only conquest, not extirpation; he did not destroy, as Joshua did; David subdued. The point with David is subjugation, a subdued people garrisoned. And how one looks across the face of the earth today and loves to think of the garrisons of God in the territory of God, holding the ground in the power of the Spirit of God; that is the idea. So David established

his dominion, we are told, there, as if every inch of the territory must be held, and held in power, not simply in doctrine, for the garrisons mean that the territory is held in power. And not only that, but what you will observe in this chapter is that these territories yielded for the house of God; they "brought gifts", we are told in verse 6. "And David put garrisons in Syria of Damascus; and the Syrians became servants to David, and brought gifts. And Jehovah preserved David whithersoever he went. And David took the shields of gold that were on the servants of Hadarezer, and brought them to Jerusalem. And from Tibhath, and from Chun, cities of Hadarezer, David took very much brass, of which Solomon made the brazen sea, and the pillars, and the vessels of brass". How essential these are at the present time! What we get in these distant conquests, what we might think of little value, what in earlier days was not even secured, is now yielding for the house of God. That is the position.

May God help us then to be energetic, and in our energy to go all the way, whatever it be, go the full limit, and God will be with us. "And Jehovah preserved David whithersoever he went".

HAVING PART IN THE ASSEMBLY INTELLIGENTLY

Romans 7:25; Romans 12:2; Ephesians 4:20 - 24; Colossians 3:1 - 4

J.T. It is to be noted that the word 'affections' in Colossians 3:2 is really "mind" -- "have your mind on the things that are above". What therefore is before us is to see how Scripture treats the subject of the mind, with a view to our having part in the assembly intelligently, and Romans would be the basis for assembly service. It is said in the earlier verses of chapter 7 that we are to "serve in newness of spirit"; and then we reach the thought of the mind, and deliverance, and the chapter ends with, "I thank God, through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then I myself with the mind serve God's law; but with the flesh sin's law". The teaching going through ends with this and brings us back to the thought of service in newness of spirit. The believer reaches a point of control, which is an absolute necessity for assembly service, that each is under control, "So then I myself", the believer is set on his feet, as it were, spiritually and has control. With the mind he serves God's law; that is the first thought. Then the second is the renewal of the mind in chapter 12, with a view to proving "the good and acceptable and perfect will of God". The next thought is that the will of God is proved to those found on this line to be "good and acceptable and perfect". Then, in Ephesians 4, it is the spirit of our minds: "Being renewed in the spirit of your mind", which is a more refined thought than the renewal of the mind. And, finally, we have the ability to "have your mind on the things that are above". I believe that by consideration we shall see that all these points enter into our having part in the assembly. And then there is another thought that is more concise than

any, namely, that we have "the mind of Christ" (1 Corinthians 2:16). It is all a question, in these passages, of the faculty, not simply that we have a mind about a particular thing, but the faculty God has given us, how we control it, and that it is renewed and set on things above. We are marked off as having the mind of Christ, so that we can serve in assembly service with Him.

F.W. Is it your thought that Romans 7:24, "O wretched man that I am!", would be a necessary part of the education of the soul; that unless one has passed this way he cannot intelligently take up the service of God in assembly?

J.T. I think that is it; the thought of the service of God is introduced at the beginning of the chapter. We have a remarkable suggestion of Christ in verse 4, "So that, my brethren, ye also have been made dead to the law by the body of the Christ, to be to another, who has been raised up from among the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God", and then, in verse 6, "But now we are clear from the law, having died in that in which we were held, so that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in oldness of letter". And I believe that the instruction from verse 7 to the end of verse 24 leads us through a process of inward analysis that is unique -- there is no other chapter like it -- it leads us to a point of naming inward faculties, movements, particularly the mind. "I myself with the mind serve God's law"; one has reached that point, and I think it is a very great point to reach, of balance, and having an intelligent part, that is, the teaching makes room for the next chapter; where the Spirit of God is operative and we are to discern between the actual movements of the Spirit and mixed fleshly inward movements and promptings.

Ques. In the reasoning, he speaks of "the law of my mind". Is that connected with the spiritual

analysis you speak of, that he has learnt to distinguish between what is in his mind, and the principle that wars against it?

J.T. Quite so. It is a great thing to be able to name things inwardly; "the word of God", we are told elsewhere, is "penetrating to the division of soul and spirit, both of joints and marrow, and a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart" (Hebrews 4:12), which is a collateral truth to this; you discern things inwardly and name them, and it makes us definite, as we reach this point in our heart, in the service of God, because we are very prone to be governed by mixed feelings.

F.S. Would the thought of the mind in chapter 7 have any relation to the will?

J.T. I suppose there is the will in a proper sense introduced as well as will in an improper sense; the will may be employed legitimately in the sense of determination, so that, "I myself with the mind serve God's law", that is your determination. It would include that you have control of the mind, and it is the starting point, I think, of all true balanced service in the assembly or otherwise, because God's law is bowed to, that is, it is characteristic. It is not simply the law to which we have died, as in the early part of the chapter; it is law in the sense of God's law. For the idea of God's law always remains right through to eternity, it is a question of God's will really.

Ques. Does verse 21 fit in with that suggestion? "I find then the law upon me who will to practise what is right, that with me evil is there".

J.T. Well, quite so; it is a law. It is remarkable the laws you get in this chapter and the beginning of the next.

Ques. "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves ... If we confess our sins" (1 John 1:8,9). Is that inward examination, analysis?

J.T. Quite so. This chapter leads us through a process of analysis to that end, that we are able to discern inward movements and name them, and in the last verse there is a sense of deliverance or the knowledge of the Deliverer. The whole thing is sequential, I am now clear and I am determined, "I myself with the mind ...". Chapter 8 confirms that and supports me in that determination. I am speaking of this verse only as suggestive of a basic thought, not to go into the teaching that leads up to it which would detain us too much. It is just the thought that one is clear now; he comes to the determination to serve God's law with the mind.

Rem. He does not connect himself with the flesh.

J.T. No, with the flesh he serves sin's law; that would be simply that the flesh is incorrigible; therefore the next chapter is that the flesh is condemned.

Rem. If we reach this point, we disconnect ourselves in that way from it.

J.T. That is, by the analysis you arrive at the repudiation of that, naming it, and the next chapter shows how God has dealt with it so that you can legitimately repudiate it, and you are supported in that thought. Now you are free to go on and the Spirit supports you, and the effect of that seems to be in chapter 12, that there is renewal; there is something going on, an additional process, meaning that the mind is renewed, "Be not conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind". And then, in Ephesians, we get "the spirit of your mind", which is a more refined thought.

Ques. Would the thought of its being the mind rather than the affections suggest energy in intelligence?

J.T. Yes, I think it is a legitimate working out of what we are speaking of in Romans 7. I can exercise power over my mind, I set it on things above; there is something going on in the individuality, it is "I

myself", all through the moral thought of God having come in, His work in us in new birth underlying it all, but my determination is to pursue this line.

F.S. The question of the mind has a very great bearing in relation to the work of God in us, has it not, God using our minds?

J.T. Well, I think God has us under His hand when we reach this determination; He has us so as to work in us. You are congenial material now, and the renewal is the suggestion of a change, changing conditions, another line of thought that runs through in regard of us, so that there is complete change contemplated in 2 Corinthians 3, by our beholding the glory and by the Lord the Spirit.

F.W. "Be not conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind"; if that is the exhortation, how is it brought about?

J.T. Well, I think it is the Spirit's work, only that God has got the believer through the teaching of Romans 7, so to say, under His hand as suitable material, and now there is the principle of refining, that the mind is his faculty primarily, but there is the principle of change introduced.

F.W. All the other governing elements have been discerned and repudiated and the great governing element is recognised, and that leaves the Spirit free for this work.

J.T. That is what I understand.

Ques. Is it the Spirit's work, that we watch the thing and move according to the way the Spirit is working? What is the part we have in that?

J.T. The individual is brought into the thing; it is not simply that he is taking on material, but Romans contemplates that the person is living in the sense of being responsive. "I myself" is my self-consciousness that I have found my feet with God in responsibility and I am now declaring my position,

"I myself with the mind serve God's law". It is my abstract position yet, but it is determined. I have reached that point, I am consciously responsible to God, but I have reached the point of determination to do one thing, with the mind to serve God's law. There is room now for chapter 8.

Ques. Would our own movements follow on that, what the person is doing?

J.T. Yes. He has you with Him, you are congenial now, you are not allowing the flesh to dispute His rights in you. The Spirit is only mentioned once, I believe, before this, but chapter 8 is full of the Spirit.

F.W. Would the end of chapter 7 be like declaring your pedigree, and then, in chapter 12 you are available to take up your place by the standard of your father's house in the camp in the testimony?

J.T. Yes, the determination to serve God's law is a priestly determination.

F.W. Not so much a military one, you mean?

J.T. I think it is priestly.

Ques. Is your thought that the idea of the renewing of your mind indicates that there is to be a continuance of the spirit of mind in chapter 7, the idea of analysis is coming on, not only in regard of yourself, but in relation to the circumstances surrounding you?

J.T. Yes, you acquire ability in the analysis, which is always carried through, so you are able to name things. The question is raised as to whether this corresponds with Numbers or with Leviticus. I think it is Leviticus rather than Numbers, for it begins with presenting your body a living sacrifice; that is, I think Leviticus, and it is your intelligent service. You are determined, as to the mind in the end of chapter 7; now you are determined as to the body that that is to be a sacrifice, presented a living

sacrifice to God, and that is called intelligent service. The second verse would support and maintain that, that is, the renewal of the mind "that ye may prove what is the good and acceptable and perfect will of God".

Rem. So the priest has no mind of his own; it was the mind shown to Moses on the mount; so we have no will of our own but the will of God; we have the mind that is in Christ Jesus.

J.T. That is what we reach, I think. We can move with Christ intelligently if we have His mind, if we think as He does, for it is a question of the faculty. So in Leviticus it is a priestly attitude of mind, as in chapter 12, and it is the will of God now, the priest is for the will of God, the law having come in in Exodus 20, and God says there (verse 6), there are "thousands of them that love me", in relation to His law. If we speak of the ten words there as representative of the will of God which is good and acceptable and perfect, the next chapter, that is chapter 21, brings in the slave, that he loves his master, he loves his wife, he loves his children. He is the first one who says "I love" in the Scriptures, and you can understand that is the man to be the priest, one who will love his master, who will love his wife, who will love his children. He is thinking only now of serving his master, and he becomes a bondman for ever because he loves. And all must now come under the thought of the will of God.

F.S. Would the import of all this be seen in Aaron having a plate of gold on his forehead engraved, "Holiness to Jehovah"?

J.T. We shall work up to that, for the allusion is, I think, to intelligence; it is a dignified thought. It will be, of course, supremely in Christ, but we are to be brought to it because we have the mind of Christ; it is in that that the priesthood lies, for the priest's lips should keep knowledge and the law is in his

mouth. He begins by submitting to God's will, his lips keep knowledge; it is now in the dignity of the gold, "Holiness to Jehovah".

F.S. Would the setting of it in Corinthians, where we have the mind of Christ, bring in the sphere where that mind can be expressed; whereas Romans is more the disentanglement?

J.T. That is good; and we have the mind of Christ; I think we have the priesthood from that point of view, "Who has known the mind of the Lord, who shall instruct him?". That is to shut out the world's wise men; but then the apostle says, "We have the mind of Christ", we are different from those, we can discern things.

Ques. Would that be the thought of the 'present age'? It may read, 'Be not conformed to the present age'.

J.T. Well, it is the world in that way. It would be, I suppose, the world in its wisdom, that which would appeal to the mind. One could understand how the Romans would take that, they would say, 'We have been going on with this and that, what is this -- the renewing of our minds?' How would they take it? They would compare the injunction with what they were accustomed to in the Empire, that is where the working of man's mind is seen; but we are to be transformed from that, and it is by the renewing of our minds.

F.S. Would the appreciation of the ministry that is given us and going on with it, feeding the mind with it, have that end practically in view?

J.T. That is another thing that enters into this, Peter's line, to "desire earnestly the pure mental milk of the word, that by it ye may grow up to salvation" (1 Peter 2:2). I think that is to sustain us, the pure mental milk, the best feature, the word of God that feeds our minds.

F.W. "This is my body, which is for you" (1 Corinthians 11:24). Are Exodus 21, the ear bored through, and this chapter 12 that we are looking at connected?

J.T. Well, you can tell us more about that.

F.W. The wife and the family would look upon the husband and father, feeling that his body had been given for them so as to be able to serve them and serve his master for ever. I was wondering whether we would view the loaf in that way, "This is my body, which is for you", and in Romans 12 we are on that line in view of the service of God.

J.T. Yes, the ear of the slave being pierced alludes to his intelligence, so it is really the idea of priesthood, but then it is not love alone, it is intelligence, hence, "I will pray with the spirit, but I will pray also with the understanding; I will sing with the spirit, but I will sing also with the understanding" (1 Corinthians 14:15). It is what is so needed in our assembly service, to have our minds properly balanced.

Ques. Would that link on with the presenting of the body?

J.T. I think we can see how it all works out from what we are speaking of. The slave is typical of the Lord in taking a body; He says, "But thou hast prepared me a body" (Hebrews 10:5); in Psalm 40:6 it is literally, "ears hast thou prepared me"; ears suggest intelligence; the Lord, in becoming man, was infinitely intelligent as to the mind of God, and we are to be brought into that. So that the wife and children of the bondman would see marks of his devotedness; he went to the doorpost and had his ear pierced and any time they looked at that they would understand it was all for them in love. We have One whose intelligence is seen, and I think that leads on to chapter 12, a living sacrifice; and then immediately we have the thought of the mind, the body is to be controlled aright by the mind.

Ques. De we at the end of chapter 7, arrive at two unalterable facts, "I myself with the mind serve God's law; but with the flesh sin's law"? Those two must go on together.

J.T. That is so, and the latter is repudiated, as we were saying. That is deliverance; the next chapter shows how we can keep that under control.

Rem. So in chapter 12 it is a question of choosing which shall have the predominance, not being "conformed to this world", but "transformed by the renewing of your mind".

J.T. Quite so. Sacrifice lies in the body; you always have that to present, but the mind knows what suits God; the renewal of the mind brings you into accord with God and what suits God, so that the body is set in that way; in it I "prove what is the good and acceptable and perfect will of God". When the Lord became man, He says, according to the psalm and to Hebrews 10, "Lo, I come ... to do, O God, thy will". "To do thy good pleasure, my God, is my delight", He says. He knew what He was doing and how pleasing it was to God that He took that form as over against bulls and goats; they did not know, but He knew. The christian is brought into this; he knows what he is doing. So, as brought into the assembly, I know what I am doing and I know what pleases God.

It is remarkable the course of instruction you get in Exodus 21, 22 and 23, and then in chapter 24 Moses has a word from Jehovah as to going up. But then Moses, a true priest himself, raises the question of the state of the people, Are they like that slave? Are they delighting in the will of God? Are they resolved, as loving God, to be entirely subject? They say they are: "All the words that Jehovah has said will we do!". That really is the ground of the covenant, so that now God has His people, at least in

figure, doing His will. Romans works that out in us, we are doing His will, and on that ground we go up.

Ques. Does the renewing of the mind suggest increased intelligence in these things?

J.T. Well, it does, and it is more quality, I think. Renewing of the mind does increase, of course, because through it we prove what is "the good and acceptable and perfect will of God", but it is quality, our mind. The renewal of the spirit of the mind is further quality, I think, and the final thought would be, "We have the mind of Christ"; there is definite correspondence in that faculty between us and Christ.

Rem. In the Hebrew servant the mind and the heart go together.

J.T. Yes. First the heart, that he loves, and secondly, the ear is devoted to the service of God. Love is at the bottom of all.

F.S. Would the ear being bored indicate he has the intelligence to discern and to repudiate everything not in accord with the will of God?

J.T. That is how it works out. "Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and to choose the good" (Isaiah 7:15). The butter and honey must allude to some power of discernment.

Ques. Is the Hebrew servant the great model for all service in the house of God?

J.T. That is the very thought; when God speaks of the thousands of those who love Him, we have a concrete case. The servant served his master for so many years and might have gone out free, but he resolves not to, because he loves. Then you have love in volume in chapter 24; showing that you have the full attestation of love in death, and in the light of that you go up.

F.W. What about the chapters in Exodus where you have the breakdown with the golden calf? Is that in any way connected with the renewing you

were speaking of, that we may be reminded that the flesh profits nothing in the service of God?

J.T. I suppose chapter 25 is based on all we have been saying, God can now reckon on the different materials He needs for His dwelling, the fruit of His own work in His people in the variety of it, and you get that going up, and then the breakdown which is to bring out, I suppose, as you say, that in spite of their great profession in chapter 24, the flesh is there, and the flesh serves the law of sin, even in those wonderful circumstances.

Ques. Is the golden calf the result of the mind working when they lost sight of Christ?

J.T. Quite so; "for this Moses, the man that has brought us up out of the land of Egypt, -- we do not know what is become of him!". It was an attitude of indifference; they did not care.

Ques. So is the thought of being conformed to this world seen in the calf?

J.T. Quite so.

Rem. It is love begotten in our hearts by the sacrifice of Christ that leads us to present our bodies a living sacrifice.

J.T. Quite so, it is love at the bottom, so that the types help us greatly. The breakdown at Horeb only brought out Christ in type in Moses saying he would be blotted out for the people. Now God honours Moses and he becomes greater and greater in the eyes of the people, and then the work proceeds. The glory shines in Moses' face, and then Bezaleel begins the work. The people are called to Moses in chapter 35, and he tells them what is needed for the tabernacle, and they depart from him; they do not make a golden calf again. It is what you do when the brethren are not looking at you, so to speak. What do you do then? Well, it says they departed from Moses and brought back all he needed and the book then proceeds to show how the parts

of the tabernacle were made, and they are all brought to Moses and set up, and they are all in function, anointed with oil, and the glory enters. So the service of God is now set up, there is a residence for the glory.

F.W. What about the tables of the covenant being placed in the ark; is that connected with this principle of renewal? Are we reminded that another order of man is the only line on which the service can be taken up?

J.T. I suppose that is the thought. Moses is told to make an ark of wood, according to Deuteronomy, and he goes up, and then, when he comes down, his face is shining. I suppose the ark of wood would mean Christ in His humanity, we advance in the knowledge of that; now you have a Man for God's pleasure, and that is where the glory appears, in His face.

F.W. When they begin to move, it is not with the ark of the covenant, as in chapter 25, but with that which will make an atmosphere for the covenant to come into. Is that suggestive, that we need an atmosphere locally if the Lord is to come in, and that is in our moving spiritually?

J.T. I think that is how the thing stands. What is stressed is the idea of obedience, that we are entirely subject to the will of God, and it links on with the chapter in Romans, our bodies are presented and our minds renewed, which means that there is a living state of things now with God. There is a measure of refining, but Ephesians takes us further, in the spirit of our minds being renewed.

F.S. Does, "Ye have not thus learnt the Christ", contemplate that the objective is in Christ?

J.T. Quite so. It is a question of early days in Exodus, of love and subjection admitting of formation, so that each item passes the judgment of Moses, and God is pleased with each item. And then all is

anointed, the priests with it and then each servant is in his place, and the glory comes in; that is the idea.

Ques. Can you help us in regard to this material that is being brought?

J.T. Well, if you look through Exodus you will find that, after the glory shines in Moses in chapter 34, and the people are afraid of him, he influenced them, and it turned them round toward him: "We all, looking on the glory of the Lord, with unveiled face, are transformed" (2 Corinthians 3:18), it is a sort of allusion to that, meaning that a young christian is not afraid of Christ and the glory; it is attractive. Then in chapter 35 we have the sabbath; we must learn to lie fallow and absorb heavenly thoughts. It is not only your mind now, but your whole body is subservient and restful, so that you have the thoughts of God. Then Moses tells them what he needs and they depart from him, as much as to say, 'We will do it for ourselves; we are trustworthy now', and they come back with all that is needed, men and women, and then the work begins, and it is all brought to Moses, and then it is anointed and set up, and the glory appears. It all works out from the love of the bondman, the bondman spirit.

Ques. Do we see the doctrine of Romans worked out in Exodus in detail in a typical way?

J.T. Yes, Exodus is the amplification of Romans: it opens it up for us. When you are presented, you are a priest; that is Leviticus.

F.S. Just to touch on Colossians, would that help us in a practical way, the thing working out subjectively; our minds are under control and we are preserved from being diverted in our thoughts?

J.T. That is the way, as we were saying. John says, "I became in the Spirit" (Revelation 1:10); that is the power, or capability, of change; that must include the elimination of all contrary elements, and that is where the mind acts, I think; it eliminates all contrary elements,

"The doors shut where the disciples were" (John 20:19).

F.S. The Lord says, "For where thy treasure is, there will be also thy heart" (Matthew 6:21). Where affections are really set on Christ where He is there is no difficulty about our mind being engaged with Him and being under control.

J.T. Yes, the point is you have control of the mind, and that is wherein lies the capability of change. "I became in the Spirit", John says; so that we change over to be alongside of Christ with His mind, with His feelings and sensibilities. That is really what is in mind in the scripture, this process of change, so that we are able to stand up alongside the Lord, as it were, having His mind and seeing what He is going on with; we are with Him; He knows He has us and we know what to do. We do not give out unsuitable hymns and we do not say unsuitable things, things that would be right in other settings, but are not right in these settings. Priests know what to do; so the exhortation, "Have your mind on the things that are above" is just to suggest that you have power to do that.

Rem. I thought the remark as to the mind being the servant of our affections was very good. "Daniel purposed in his heart that he would not pollute himself" (Daniel 1:8).

J.T. Yes, very good. You get many different appellations for the Spirit in this chapter in Romans, "the Spirit", "the Spirit of life", "the Spirit of God", "a spirit of adoption", and so forth. The Spirit witnesses with our spirits; there is such complete analysis you can discern that the spirit of God is witnessing with your spirit.

Rem. Intelligence seems to have a very important place in connection with the service of God.

J,.T. It has. It is the want of it that often spoils our meetings; not so much the want of affection,

but of intelligence, of control, of knowing what to do.

Ques. Why did you take Ephesians before Colossians?

J.T. To work out the link. We have the renewal of the mind, and then the renewal of the spirit of the mind suggesting increased refinement, then the power to have it on things above, and then, finally, the priestly thought of the mind of Christ; we are able to think as He does, not simply that I know His mind in a particular thing. It is remarkable that His faculty is applied to us. The Lord says, "He wakeneth morning by morning, he wakeneth mine ear to hear as the instructed" (Isaiah 50:4). He also says, "That I should know how to succour by a word him that is weary"; it is the intelligence; and so "Ears hast thou prepared me" (Psalm 40:6) is translated in the New Testament, "Thou hast prepared me a body" (Hebrews 10:5), intelligence in humanity, a Man knowing the mind of God, as over against "bulls and goats".

T.S. The princes of this world "crucified the Lord of glory" (1 Corinthians 2:8)

Pages 167 to 456, 'The Service of the Comforter' and Other Ministry, 1937 - 1938, (Volume 207).

THE SERVICE OF THE COMFORTER

John 14:15 - 26; John 15:26,27; John 16:7 - 15

J.T. The Lord will help us, I believe, in considering the great subject of the Holy Spirit as presented under the title of the Comforter. It is only in these chapters He is so called; four times He is predicated by the word 'Comforter', and we shall see, I believe, that it is the Spirit in relation to our dispensation, but seen as given to saints; not in the sense in which a believer is sealed by Him, or even indwelt by Him individually, but as given to the saints viewed collectively, to be with them as Jesus was with His disciples, so He is called "another Comforter". The early part of the gospel contemplates the Spirit as operative in believers viewed severally, sometimes in a figurative way, as under the titles of 'dove', 'wind', 'water'; it is always a substantial thought, that the Spirit is here in a substantial sense, not in a merely theoretical sense. So that it is said by the evangelist that the Spirit "was not yet" as it reads literally, "because Jesus had not yet been glorified" (John 7:39). In the early part He is contemplated as coming from the glorified Christ and operating in believers in the sense of new birth or water for drink, or, earlier, as a dove, symbolising Him as He came on Christ. In all that we have the dispensation presented characteristically, that is in relation to the Father, the Father being the title under which God is known in this dispensation specially, so as to stress the familiarity into which God has come, as it were, in nearness to us; and also that judgment is not

stressed: "Neither does the Father judge any one", it says (John 5:22). In this section of John we have the Spirit under the title of Comforter, as we have said, but given to the saints viewed collectively, not simply sent, as later, but given, and given not simply because Christ is glorified, but because He asks for Him. That is out of consideration for the saints, the Lord as leaving them would provide for them in this way by giving another Comforter, so that we have a divine Person here given to the saints collectively under this title, which signifies that He is near us and with us, as in meetings like this, and looking after, not only God's rights down here, but our affairs spiritually. In chapter 14 it is the inner side of the position. These chapters really present phases of our position as having the Comforter; first the inner side, then the public testimony in relation to fruit, in ministry, and then conflict, in chapter 16. That is the general thought.

F.W. Would you tell us where the first section closes and the second one begins?

J.T. Well, chapter 14 commences the subject on hand; the first section runs on to verse 24. Then, "These things I have said to you, abiding with you" begins the second phase of the subject. First, He is given to the saints in answer to request by the Lord; then He is sent by the Father in the name of the Son; that is the second phase. Then, in the end of chapter 15 He is sent by the Son, and the Lord adds that He "goes forth". He says, "Whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes forth from with the Father", that is He is now viewed as having been there with the Father, sent by the Son, so that He testifies of Him according to the thoughts of the Father as to Him. Then finally He is sent by the Son again in chapter 16 in relation to the conflict, to bring demonstration to the world, involving its guilt.

H.M.G. Would you say we have to learn these declarations, starting at the first one, the inner position?

J.T. I think that is the way the truth has to be learnt, the saints regarding themselves in a collective way; according to chapter 13, we are set together in love, having love among ourselves. The Comforter is come to us thus as loving the Lord Jesus; love is the basic thought in us, loving Him and keeping His commandments. There is a moral reason for His asking for Him for a company who love Him and keep His commandments. So that the first part of our subject throws us, as it were, in our mind towards one another, having such an One as this with us to care for us.

Ques. What would be involved in keeping His commandments?

J.T. Well, whatever He has directed. The thought would widen out from what it was when He spoke these words. The gospel was written after the whole truth of christianity was unfolded, including Paul's ministry, so the commandment would be very wide, including particularly the Corinthian epistles; all the Lord had said embodied in the gospels would be included. It is well to bear in mind, I think, that the gospels were written as the truth was all unfolded and confirmed in the world among saints. The gospels would be to present the truth in its fulness as set out in principle in the Lord's own ministry. There had been an opening up of what the Lord had said, that is on the principle of fulness, through apostolic ministry, and also through the work of the Spirit in the saints; the gospels were intended to confirm all that.

E.L.M. Would chapter 14 assure that nothing that the Lord gave when here can be lost; chapter 15 bringing our hearts into the light of what is now true

of the Lord, and chapter 16 having reference to what is future?

J.T. That, I think, is helpful. Chapter 14:26 shows that the presence of the Spirit brings to remembrance, brings in that thought, so that there is nothing lost, you mean?

E.L.M. Yes. They had not to trust their memories, as we have expressed in prayer.

J.T. Verse 26 fits in, I believe, with our times. Verses 15 to 20 present the Spirit in relation to normal conditions at the outset from Pentecost on, that is, whilst conditions remained normal; and then the Lord brings up the thought of an individual loving Him, that is, one who had His commandments and kept them. The commandments are supposed to have been there; any individual who had them and kept them showed his love. From that verse to the end of verse 24 there is, I think, the idea of broken days, when the saints should be tested by the commandments, keeping the commandments and keeping the word of Christ, and, in view of that, the idea of things being brought to our remembrance, for much had been beclouded; if we look at it from the standpoint of the history of the assembly, much had been obscured and lost, and the Spirit would bring all out into clarity in the minds of the saints; and, not only that, but as the Lord says, "He shall teach you all things, and will bring to your remembrance all the things which I have said to you". "He shall teach" being emphatic would mean that others failed in that; the teaching in christendom had failed in that, so that the thought of His teaching and bringing to our remembrance is brought in in verse 26 as a provision for these times.

F.W. Were you thinking that verse 26 would particularly apply to the last century?

J.T. Well, it seems so to me, for He is sent by the Father in Christ's name, that having reference,

I think, to other names that had been adapted by christians; and the teaching of the Spirit referring to the degenerating teaching that had come in, so that we have the name of Christ which is alluded to in the address to Philadelphia, "Thou ... hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name" (Revelation 3:8). That would all fit in here, I think.

E.L.M. Would Haggai have any bearing on what you suggest, where it says, "The word that I covenanted with you when ye came out of Egypt, and my Spirit, remain among you: fear ye not" (Haggai 2:5)?

J.T. That is a good scripture. "The word that I covenanted with you when ye came out of Egypt, and my Spirit, remain among you: fear ye not". The two things remained with them; that fits in; what God had covenanted in Christ and the Holy Spirit remain in us. What is your thought?

E.J.McB. I wondered whether the Spirit has taken the place of teaching in relation to the defective teaching in christendom.

J.T. That is what I was thinking; I do not think it strains the passage to say so, for undoubtedly the defection is alluded to by the Lord in verse 21, where He says, "He that has my commandments and keeps them". He had already said to them, "If ye love me, keep my commandments", it is the matter of the gift of the Spirit primarily, but now it is an individual, "He that has my commandments and keeps them, he it is that loves me", as if there were some not doing that. The Lord is stressing individual love for Himself, it points to John's way of speaking of 2 Timothy times. Then, when it is questioned as to how the Lord should manifest Himself to them and not to the world, Jesus again says, "If any one love me". It is not 'us' any more, or 'you', but individuals. We are tested in that way whether we love Him by keeping His commandments or keeping

His word. And then the Spirit being sent by the Father in His name would, as it were, be the Father providing for the name here in which divine operations are carried on, for it was challenged and obscured; things were being done, and are being done today, in other names, but the Spirit was here in Christ's name, sent by the Father, and He teaches all things. Moreover, He is called the "Holy Spirit" in verse 26, and He teaches all things, "and will bring to your remembrance all the things which I have said to you". So that He is here in these times to teach and bring all things to remembrance, so that nothing is allowed to slip; we are taught as to all things and our memories are refreshed by Him as to all things.

Rem. Things are put in a conditional way as to whether we get the good and gain of it.

J.T. From the outset it is so; the 'if' is a conditional thought. It seems to me that this point as to the Spirit's teaching us as to all things and bringing all things to our remembrance is the explanation of these latter-day revivals. The truth has come up again in its entirety; it is not only that attention has been called to it, but the Spirit is teaching, making it intelligible to us, and then the actual words of Christ are brought back, as He says, "He ... will bring to your remembrance all the things which I have said to you". It seems as if the Lord by the Spirit is stressing details of the truth, all the things that He said, making each thing to stand out in its own import, not allowing anything to be regarded as a non-essential.

Rem. So Paul says, "Remember the words of the Lord Jesus, that he himself said, It is more blessed to give than to receive" (Acts 20:35). Would that link up with the thought of the Spirit?

J.T. Well, that has often been alluded to, you only get it in that particular passage, the Spirit reminding them of it. A most precious word, too.

Ques. With regard to the Spirit teaching all things, is that what John refers to in his first epistle where he says, "Ye have the unction from the holy one" (chapter 2:20); it is not simply that you have an unction, but you have it from the Holy One, and "ye know all things".

J.J. Then he says, "These things have I written to you concerning those who lead you astray" (chapter 2:26). Would that be in accord with what you are saying?

J.T. I think so. The antichrist is contemplated. "It is the last hour" (chapter 2:18), the apostle says; that does not mean the last hour of the dispensation, it means the whole dispensation, that it is the great testing hour of the history of time. And antichrist should come, "Ye have heard that antichrist comes"; it is a great general thought Paul and others had taught, but that there were many antichrists was what was not, perhaps, observed, and that brings in, in that passage, the peculiar title of the Spirit, "the unction". It is not that He is called the unction exactly, it is "Ye have the unction from the holy one", the Holy One, I suppose, alluding to God in the Spirit, the unction is from Him and teaches all things. It is a remarkable word and alludes evidently to dignity and feeling in the teaching. It is alluded to in verse 27, "Yourselves, the unction which ye have received from him abides in you, and ye have not need that any one should teach you; but as the same unction teaches you as to all things, and is true". This matter of the teaching and bringing to our remembrance is to be specially noted, for it is the guarantee for us against the degenerated teaching that is in christendom and the beclouding of the truth. It is the bringing of everything to light as it was at the beginning.

Ques. Is that not very encouraging, a guarantee that everything that came out at the outset is for us?

J.T. I think that is the way it should be looked at especially by young christians, for the passage alluded to in John's epistle is addressed to the little children in verse 18, and in verse 20 it says, "Ye have the unction from the holy one, and ye know all things". That is, now they are accredited, as having the unction, with knowing all things. And then in verse 27, "And yourselves, the unction which ye have received from him abides in you, and ye have not need that any one should teach you; but as the same unction teaches you as to all things, and is true and is not a lie, and even as it has taught you, ye shall abide in him".

Ques. Does the thought of energy come in in connection with the unction?

J.T. I think it does. I think it should mark our meetings such as this, that those who minister are energetic in presenting things to the saints, and thorough in what they are presenting; they are not leaving anything out or counting anything as a non-essential. David, we are told, established his dominion on the Euphrates (1 Chronicles 18:3) meaning that the utmost border of the inheritance is secured; it might have been thought of little account as so far away, but David established his dominion there. And I believe that is how the matter stands, that those who are with God are concerned about all these things that belong to the great heritage of truth which has come to us. And then the thoroughness and the bringing to remembrance, our minds, as mentioned in prayer, are leaky and weak, but the spirit brings things to remembrance, and there is no doubt that the thought can be linked on with the Lord's supper, which is a sort of objective reminder of Christ. The Spirit brings to our remembrance what the Lord said.

-- .M. Would one special feature of that be the way the Lord has helped us in the understanding of

His words, as to "My Father and your Father, and to my God and your God" (John 20:17)?

J.T. I think the Lord is on those lines, for we are very prone to say two things are the same when they are not, when there are distinctions to be made. And in this verse the Spirit makes distinctions and causes every word the Lord uses to stand out in its own import; so "My Father and your Father" means one thing; "my God and your God" means another thing.

Ques. Does John 14:16 link the Spirit on with the whole scope of truth, but verse 26 imply conditions for the reception of these thoughts?

J.T. Yes, I think that is good. The word 'Holy' being added -- "Holy Spirit" -- would, I think, point to unholy influences that had been at work in the defection down through the ages, corrupting things. "If any one corrupt the temple of God, him shall God destroy" (1 Corinthians 3:17). Those things would be in mind, no doubt, when the Lord changes the title to "Holy Spirit" instead of "Spirit of truth".

F.W. Would you connect holiness with an ecclesiastical setting rather than a worldly setting?

J.T. I think that is the idea; I believe that is in mind in the Spirit's coming to the company.

Ques. Have you the same thought of safeguarding the thing in detail by the Lord in Matthew 5, where He says, "one iota or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law till all come to pass"?

J.T. Very good; that surely can be applied to the truths of christianity, what the Lord Himself said, for that is the principle of christianity; He is the Word. John begins his gospel with that thought, meaning that the Lord Jesus has unfolded all the thoughts of God to us, and every word is to be held in its own value.

Rem. And Paul says in 2 Timothy 3 that "Every scripture is divinely inspired, and profitable for teaching".

J.T. Just so.

Ques. We have a number of the written words of the Lord, but the last few words in this particular gospel say, that if all was written, the world itself could not contain the books, so it is essential we get the Holy Spirit, is it not?

J.T. So that John had an immense thought of the ministry of Christ; he begins with Him as God, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God". So that what He says must be infinite in its bearing, and no doubt that is what he refers to, that the world could not contain the books. But then another Person has come down, has provided for everything and brings everything to our remembrance. It is marvellous that we are so provided for in these days; He comes in His name, that is over against other names that have come in in christendom.

-- .F. Spiritual things must be communicated by spiritual means.

J.T. Just so. I wonder if the brethren are clear as to the first two references; if so we could go on to the third.

Ques. Are the actual words spoken of in connection with the remembrance of the words of the Lord here, for the apostle Paul refers to only a few words of the Lord Jesus?

J.T. Well, the point in words is to unfold a thought. Actual words, of course, where we have them, are to be treasured, but the idea of the word, logos, is to convey thoughts. The apostle says, "If any one thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him recognise the things that I write to you, that it is the Lord's commandment" (1 Corinthians 14:37). That

would embody what the Lord had said, in principle at least, as down here.

-- .T. The first two names mentioned in 2 Timothy are spoken of as those who turned away from Paul; they had given up Paul's teaching, had they not?

J.T. Quite so, and evidently on personal grounds; the opposition was to him personally, and would discredit what he said.

J.J. Would not the addresses to the seven churches have a very large place in what you are saying, in what the Lord says and what the Spirit says?

J.T. I think they illustrate what we are saying; what the Lord says is given in so many words, but what the Spirit says is left open; it is indefinite, and infinite indeed!

Ques. How are you connecting fruit-bearing with testimony?

J.T. Well, I thought the third reference comes in at the end of chapter 15, and the chapter teaches us as to fruit-bearing; it is another phase of the position, not sequential, but a collateral phase of chapter 14. The Lord is said to be the true vine, and the disciples the branches, so that the chapter contemplates that side, but our subject, of course, does not permit of our going into that. What the two verses have in mind is that the Spirit is sent by Christ. The disciples are viewed in chapter 15 as His friends, and He makes much of love and the kind of love, the Father's love, and His love, and their love. We are on an exalted plane in regard of love, and the saints are viewed as His friends, because He has communicated to them all that the Father says, a remarkable thing, "All things which I have heard of my Father I have made known to you". And I think that the chapter suggests to us the component parts

of the bride, the assembly, viewed in that way. Friendship and confidence necessarily precede the wifely relationship of the saints to Christ, and I believe that the Lord has all that in mind when He says, "But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes forth from with the Father, he shall bear witness concerning me". I think the Lord has in mind in sending the Spirit that the saints should become conversant with the Father's thoughts about Him. The Spirit is with the Father and He goes forth; He is sent by the Son, but still He goes forth Himself, as from with the Father, carrying all that the Father thought about the Son, as Abraham's servant would carry to Rebecca all that Abraham thought about Isaac, and how concerned he was as to the one to be companion for Isaac! The Spirit, as sent by Christ in that sense, goes forth from with the Father, He is thoroughly conversant with the Father's thoughts, and He will be occupied now in testifying to Christ as known up there, not as known down here. For the point in Genesis 24 is Isaac up there; Isaac is in the land, he did not go down to Beer-sheba with the young men. So I think the Father, having this in mind, sent the Spirit to testify to Him, and it would include Paul's ministry.

E.J.McB. When the Son went into the presence of the Father with these peculiar affections and relationships, the Spirit comes down to form those relationships and affections in the saints.

J.T. I think we are quite entitled to speak of the Spirit in that way reverentially, making full place for the fact that He is a divine Person. The saints saw His glory, they contemplated it. What did the Spirit see up there? How infinitely able He was to contemplate all that went on, for divine Persons have come into an economy near us and allow us to speak of Them in that way. He had been with the

Father and now He comes forth from with Him, as if the Lord sends Him to tell all that down here.

Ques. That would make the ten days very wonderful, would it not, when the Lord was on high with the Father and the Spirit had not come? They were ten days without either divine Person.

J.T. What history was made in heaven during those ten days; what was visible there!

F.W. As coming from the Father, is it to bring us into the full light of the revelation involving the bride, the assembly, the city, the world to come, and the eternal conditions, the universe of God; is all that connected with the thought of the Father?

J.T. Quite so, but this particular allusion is to the Spirit being conversant with things. The Lord says, "when the Comforter is come ... the Spirit of truth who goes forth from with the Father". It is quite apparent the Lord is alluding to what we are saying, what transpired there during those ten days, how was the Son regarded there? Who but the Spirit could rightly apprehend what transpired there as He ascended up? Luke 24:51 says He "was carried up", Paul says He was "received up in glory" (1 Timothy 3:16); but the Spirit coming out, what He would convey to us! what He is conveying to us! as to what the Father thinks of the Son, what is suitable to the Son; for Abraham makes a great deal of the person who should be suitable to Isaac. The Holy Spirit has, I believe, for a long time been pressing on us the dignity of the assembly as of Christ, "Both he that sanctifies and those sanctified are all of one; for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren" (Hebrews 2:11). So that it would seem as if the apostle Paul's ministry would be included in this verse, "He shall bear witness concerning me"; He says, that is what He would be up there; "and ye too bear witness, because ye are with me from the beginning".

E.J.McB. Would Paul have that somewhat in his mind when he referred to the Father of glory?

J.T. I think he would. I think Ephesians is all the opening up of what we are speaking of.

Ques. Would it answer to the prayer in Ephesians 3, "strengthened with power by his Spirit in the inner man"?

J.T. I think so. I think both prayers would have this in mind.

Ques. Would it cover Peter's ministry too? He speaks of the "Holy Spirit, sent from heaven" in the first chapter of his first epistle; the testimony of the glad tidings lies in the hands of the Spirit.

J.T. I believe it would include that. "To whom it was revealed, that not to themselves but to you they ministered those things, which have now been announced to you by those who have declared to you the glad tidings by the Holy Spirit, sent from heaven". So the glad tidings really is a question of the glorified Christ, and that leads on to the truth of the assembly.

Ques. "He shall bear witness concerning me", would that be confined to the Holy Scriptures?

J.T. Part of it is included in the Holy Scriptures now, so Peter says, "according as our beloved brother Paul also has written to you according to the wisdom given to him, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; among which some things are hard to be understood" (2 Peter 3:15,16), as if Paul's ministry was, in Peter's mind, part of the Scriptures, was it not? And Paul says too that his ministry completed the word of God (Colossians 1:25), not that it was the completion of the scriptures, for this very gospel, I suppose, was written after Paul's epistles, but the word of God was completed in Paul's ministry; the mystery would be that.

Ques. Would it imply our getting first-hand knowledge in that way of the Father's thoughts of the

Son, and thus being formed in them? The testimony would flow out of that.

J.T. I think that is one thought in it, as in the type the servant of Abraham was said to be over all his house; he was the chief of his house, one who was conversant with Abraham's mind and over all his goods. So that he was fully furnished in going out to seek Rebecca.

Ques. Is it brought in here as over against the way the Son and the Father have been treated in this world?

J.T. Well, it is; the Lord says, "They have both seen and hated both me and my Father" (chapter 15:24); the Father and the Son were presented in Him. John 1:14 says, "We have contemplated his glory", they valued what was there, but the world hated it, a terrible thing that that wonderful testimony was both seen and hated. So what goes on in heaven is all over against that: heaven's delight in the Son, the Father's delight in Him, and the Spirit here to make all that known.

Ques. You were speaking of the great thought of remembrance being brought in at the Supper; would this be helpful in relation to what comes in consequent on it, the Father's thoughts of the Son?

J.T. I think that is what comes out. The Supper is an objective thing, "This do in remembrance of me"; aside from the Spirit it could not be much to us. As a matter of fact there is nothing said about the Lord's supper being celebrated during the ten days, there is not a word said about its being celebrated till the Holy Spirit comes down; it is the Holy Spirit who gives it its fulness.

-- .B. Christendom has turned away from the Scriptures, but the teaching of the Spirit has led us back to the Scriptures. Would you say that the teaching of the Spirit is within the scope of the Scriptures?

J.T. Well, the teaching of the Spirit added to the Scriptures; what the Lord alludes to here as written in Paul's epistles and the gospels was all by the Spirit; it added to the Scriptures. Paul said his ministry completed the word of God, that is, the whole word of God is out, but it does not say he completed the Scriptures, there were more Scriptures after that.

Ques. Does not the Spirit give the Scriptures their fulness?

J.T. That is right, so that the ministry of the Spirit today would not add to Scripture, it would be within the limits of Scripture. "To the law and the testimony!" (Isaiah 8:20), the Scriptures must always be the test of what is said now, but when Paul wrote, the Spirit inditing what he wrote, he added to the Scriptures. Now, of course, the Scriptures are complete, and they are the test of all ministry.

Ques. Would it be right to apply the pot which the widow had in 2 Kings 4, to the Spirit? She said, "Thy handmaid has not any thing at all in the house but a pot of oil".

J.T. Well, she was to get vessels, not a few. The Scriptures are not the abode of the Spirit, the saints are that; the saints are the vessel in which the Spirit is.

Rem. The widow had the pot for the oil, and, had she realised what was in the house, everything would have been met. I was thinking too of the period of the church's history some fifteen hundred years ago, when apparently the Spirit was silent and the Scriptures were shut up.

J.T. Quite so. But then there is another thing that we must take account of, those in whom the Spirit is, the woman herself, we must make something of her.

Rem. Yes, the woman had it there, but was not taking account of it.

J.T. So the figure would not be an unconverted person with a Bible on the shelf, but the vessel is the person. I think that comes out in the gospel. The woman of Samaria brought her vessel to draw water, but she went back to the city without it, understanding what the Lord said, that she herself was a vessel. There are many like that, they have the Spirit, but they do not make room for Him. I believe the "vessels; let it not be few", would be adding to what was there in the sense of capacity, so the oil was not stayed till the vessels were all filled.

Ques. Is the Spirit seen in identification with the vessels in the scripture you have read, the Spirit bearing witness, and "Ye too bear witness", the saints with the Spirit in the place of witness?

J.T. Well, "Ye too bear witness" is over against the Spirit there. The Lord is distinguishing between the testimony of the Spirit in Its Pauline service and the twelve as having learnt from Christ before the Spirit came. All that they learnt, of course, would be made effective in them by the Spirit, but they are viewed rather as having been with Him from the beginning, that is, there is qualification for witnessing in this particular passage, whereas the Spirit is viewed as witnessing distinct from them. I suppose it is the new departure in Paul that is alluded to. They, of course, witnessed by the Spirit too, but that is not the point here, it is to bring out the witness of the Spirit as come down, proceeding from the Father and sent by the Son.

E.J.McB. To go back for one moment, the widow hardly represents the public position as having the pot; it is rather the suggestion that would be applicable to any case.

J.T. Yes, it is rather an individual position, she was in debt.

E.J.McB. There are certain figures that clearly imply the public position.

J.T. What is to be noted here is that the Lord does not stress that the Spirit should use the saints. We know that in coming here the Spirit did use the saints, He works in a vessel, but the Lord is not stressing that here, but that He was with the Father and He proceeded forth from with the Father, and that the Son sent Him, and that He should testify; how He should do it is not the point. The twelve are also in addition to that. Chapter 16 is the battlefield, and the Lord shows how the Comforter exposes the world. It is an immense thing in conflict that the enemy's position is exposed; you know just where he is; that is, the Spirit "will bring demonstration to the world, of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment". This is a side we cannot ignore, it is most essential we should understand how the Comforter is looking after us in this public conflict. What comes out in these conflicts we have in a little way now to go through, is that the Lord, by the Spirit, exposes where the enemy is; you see just what he is aiming at.

Ques. Is the believer the vessel of the Spirit for testimony, or is the assembly the vessel?

J.T. Strictly speaking, the assembly is the vessel, "Ye also are built together for a habitation of God in the Spirit" (Ephesians 2:22), it is a collective thought. Then we see individuals, like Paul or Stephen, preaching or teaching, or whatever it may be, in the power of the Spirit. Stephen was said to be full of the Holy Spirit; it was not that he had the Spirit in him as Christ had; he could only participate in It, but it is the same Spirit as is in the assembly. So He is seen in 1 Corinthians as operating; in chapter 12 the Spirit is seen first, then the Lord, and then God. "There are distinctions of gifts but the same Spirit" (verse 4). The gifts are given, and exercised by individuals, but it is the one Spirit.

E.J.McB. So that, in John 16, it is not so much the demonstrator as the power of demonstration.

J.T. Yes, it is another side of the position that in conflict the Comforter will expose the enemy's position. That is an immense thing in conflict, because the battle is won really when you see what is at stake; the issue is clear.

Ques. Is that why He is called the Spirit of truth, because of the exposure?

J.T. Well, you can see how that fits in here. "I say the truth to you, It is profitable for you that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Comforter will not come to you; but if I go I will send him to you". We see from that and the following verses that there was much in the Lord's mind He could not unfold then, but it would be unfolded when the Spirit came. We do not get teaching here; it is not the point; the point is guiding, guiding "into all the truth" (verse 13). One said that the prophet told the king of Israel the words that the king of Syria spoke in his bedchamber. I think that is the principle of the Spirit here; He brings demonstration to the world of sin; see what that is! And of righteousness; see what that is! And of judgment; see what that is!

Ques. Does that pave the way for this more sensitive matter, "but whatsoever he shall hear he shall speak; and he will announce to you what is coming"?

J.T. I think it does. He is here in this capacity as our Paraclete, but He is always in relation to heaven, receiving communications and guiding us into all the truth. I suppose, in a meeting like this, you begin with something, and the Spirit being here, He is looking after our affairs, and He keeps us right. We may easily be swerved, but He uses one and another to keep things right amongst us; He is guiding.

Ques. In the first instance, is the demonstration, in the heart of the believer and through the believer, in that way a demonstration to the world? Does the force of it come home to the saint?

J.T. I think that is right. I think the saint alone can understand what has happened, but if we follow the history after Pentecost, we can see how what was in Jerusalem was exposed. The Holy Spirit took charge of things, coming down and operating, so as to bring out what was among the Jews; the whole thing came into evidence.

Rem. It was said that they were the men that had turned the world upside down.

J.T. Quite so. If you take the first item here, "Having come, he will bring demonstration to the world, of sin". Demonstration is evidently public; it is to the world. "Of sin" is the first thing, and the Lord explains that by saying, "Of sin, because they do not believe on me". That came out in the wonderful testimony of the twelve at Jerusalem by the power of the Spirit that the people generally, the leaders, refused to believe on Christ. That was clear, they were exposed; it was the ground of wrath coming upon them to the utmost. Later I suppose the thought would be that those who did believe the testimony of the twelve would be clear of the thing; they would judge it and it would be a great help to them in leaving the thing. Then "of righteousness", I suppose the presence of the Spirit here would be the testimony to righteousness and that Jesus was with the Father. "I go away to my Father"; there is nothing in the world could be more righteous than that that blessed Man should go up there; He went to the Father. Then, "of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged". I believe these demonstrations are intended to deliver us, to enable us to see what we have to do with and to abandon it.

Ques. Would the testimony of Stephen be a demonstration?

J.T. The whole of Stephen's speech brought into evidence the position. It is, you might say, the summing up of this. Who could stay in judaism after that, if he loved Jesus?

Ques. Going back a little, "He shall bear witness concerning me", is that the thought of the character of the ministry today?

J.T. I think it is. Of course, as I said, it really alludes to the unfolding of the mystery in Paul, but in character it is the same thing. The Lord goes on here to say, "I have yet many things to say to you, but ye cannot bear them now. But when he is come, the Spirit of truth, he shall guide you into all the truth: for he shall not speak from himself; but whatsoever he shall hear he shall speak; and he will announce to you what is coming". Notice, it is not 'teaching', but 'guiding' and 'announcing', having perfect knowledge of everything, as He hears and sees He lets it be known to us.

Ques. The thought of "he shall bear witness concerning me" I thought was very inclusive of the Spirit's ministry today. Is that right?

J.T. Quite so. That is the thing for us this afternoon to see, that we have a divine Person here in a meeting like this. One speaks of it humbly and reverently, but it is the truth; not simply He teaches, but He guides. It is not only what one says, but the Holy Spirit is in all; that is the principle, so the truth is confirmed and comes out amongst us.

J.J. "He will announce to you what is coming", is that true now?

J.T. I think in the principle of it the passage ought to be taken as bearing on the beginning, what the Spirit will do in this demonstration, but, as we were saying, it goes on. In every conflict that comes up, if we wait on Him, viewed as the Comforter, the

issue will become clear; the battleground will be selected by Him, and He gives us every advantage. It is a great thing to get hold of the thought of the Comforter, for it alludes to Him as looking after things in relation to the position as a whole.

Ques. Would the demonstration, as far as the saints are concerned, correspond with the unction that the saints have received?

J.T. It would. The unction is not so wide a thought as this; the unction alludes to the way the Spirit operates in teaching us. The point is not that He is a teacher, but He is in the saints in that capacity as teaching. So the apostle goes so far as to say, You know all things, you know the truth by His presence in the unction. And it especially bears on young christians, for that part is to the little children. But here He is in us, and He is with us. The Father, says the Lord, will give Him to them, and He shall be in them. And the primary thought is He is given in love to abide with us for ever.

J.J. Is it not striking that in 1 John 2 the word is the same as the word Comforter, "If any one sin, we have a patron with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous"; "of righteousness, because I go away to my Father"; the One who manages our affairs.

J.T. Quite so. The word 'Comforter' is applied to the Lord up there. He is looking after our affairs up there, and the Spirit is here.

DISPENSATIONS ENDING IN QUALITY EQUAL TO THE BEGINNING

Genesis 6:8,9; Genesis 48:14 - 20; Malachi 3:16 - 18; Revelation 22:16,17

J.T. The trend of the meeting is to enable us to look together at the spiritual quality marking the end of the great dispensations of God, the first beginning at Genesis 1, and extending to Genesis 6, and then the second extending to the end of the book, inclusive of all the dealings of God from the entrance into Egypt by Jacob and his family until Christ really, but as seen ended in Malachi, and then the present dispensation ending in the verses read in Revelation. These scriptures will be seen, I believe, as we look at them, to represent spiritual quality or qualities, which, although seen in but a few, were there as witness to the divine workmanship, a subject bearing particularly on ourselves now as drawing near to the end, so that the quality indicated in Revelation 22 should appear more definitely. The Lord, as He announces Himself as "the root and offspring of David, the bright and morning star" is recognised; the Spirit and the bride join in asking Him to come. Noah would represent the first dispensation, and Jacob the second, and those in Malachi the third, and the Spirit and the bride the supreme thought; nothing can exceed, in the sense of spiritual stature, what we get in them.

A.M.H. Did you say Genesis 6 was a climax of the beginning?

J.T. I thought the record indicates that Noah answered to the mind of God. It is said he found favour in the eyes of Jehovah, and then the history says, "Noah was a just man, perfect amongst his generations; Noah walked with God"; and then in chapter 7 Jehovah says, "Thee have I seen righteous

before me". There is that to which God can, in this language, formally commit Himself.

A.M.H. That is, after the breakdown in Adam, certain features acceptable to God are developed in certain individuals and are brought together in Noah.

J.T. That is what I thought. He is prophetically spoken of as born by his father, who called his name Noah, saying, "This one shall comfort us concerning our work and concerning the toil of our hands, because of the ground which Jehovah has cursed". We can see, I think, that the Lord had wrought in him with a great end in view and that it was reached; it represents the work of God at that time.

A.M.H. So that God's sabbath, which was broken in upon, is now recovered in one man and his generation.

J.T. That helps to show how the Spirit of God has the truth set; his name signifying 'rest' would show that God was finding that in him, and we are told later that Jehovah smelled an odour of rest.

Ques. Does the expression, the "eyes of Jehovah" suggest what Jehovah was looking for?

J.T. Jehovah looked down from heaven, we are told later, to see if there was any good; He finds good here in Noah.

A.M.H. Is your point that it was not merely Christ typically here, but God has actually arrived at the point He was labouring for in men on earth?

J.T. Yes, the substance was there; Noah "found favour in the eyes of Jehovah", and then the history says he "was a just man, perfect amongst his generations", and then again, "thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation". All this alludes, not to what he is typically, but what he is actually, substantially.

Ques. Have you in mind that these qualities being found in man, God is able to move forward,

and they are accumulated, so to speak, in the climax at the end?

J.T. I thought we would see as we proceed that these qualities are cumulative, it is one entering into the next dispensation and a development on that; then the third great dispensation under Moses introduced sonship, which is an advance; in the end of Malachi we get the very thought in those who feared the Lord at that time.

J.S.E. Is it important to see that God is only looking for one odour, it is a definite one, what He smells; it is the odour, as though He is always moving for one thing in every dispensation.

J.T. Yes. It finds its culmination in our dispensation in the ministers. In Paul there was an odour to God, he caused the odour of the knowledge of God to spread abroad wherever he went, and he was himself an odour to God in those that were saved and in those that perished.

E.F. Is there a link between Enoch and Noah, Enoch being caught up?

J.T. Enoch would represent, as a type, the saints, the assembly, being caught up into heaven; the link would lie in that. Noah goes through the judgment here and Enoch escapes it. They both represent the work of God, however, substantially, for Enoch had the testimony that he personally pleased God, so that he comes very near to Noah as representing the work of God towards the end of that dispensation. He is "the seventh from Adam", we are told in Jude, which would mean that he represents the culmination of the exercise from Adam down to his time. Noah carries it through; Noah also represents that same exercise, only he carries it through, the number eight attaching to him going over to another dispensation. The application to us would be that in our spirits we go over, we do not go through the judgment; it will be another dispensation; but in asking the Lord to

come, we anticipate what the Jewish remnant shall have to endure.

E.J.McB. Is your thought that the dispensation does not break down exactly, or fail on that line, but the picture is given of the complete idea of the dispensation in the close of it?

J.T. That is right, and they are all cumulative. The testimony as to God's work goes through, the work of God is imperishable. What may accompany it in those in whom it is seen is another matter, causing discipline or judgment, but the work of God itself is imperishable.

P.L. Would not the three distinct ministries, those of Peter, Paul and John, touch on this; Peter in relation to Noah; Paul in the great patriarchal character of blessing, seen in Jacob; and then John in relation to the overcomer in Malachi, as a son? Peter speaks of "our beloved brother Paul"; is there a passing over in that way, what is choicest in the one cumulative in the next?

J.T. I think it is important to keep the cumulative side in mind because it is the work of God. Peter undoubtedly touches particularly on Noah, because Peter deals with the government of God. He addresses his first letter to those of the dispersion, meaning that they were dispersed in the government of God. But the government of God did not interfere with the work of God, but rather accentuated it; it was the very thing that helped externally to develop in them the truth of christianity. So it is said of Noah, that he was one of eight, and saved; Peter says "into which few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water" (1 Peter 3:20), they are the few of privilege. The government of God has a sifting character to it, and those that subsist are the privileged ones. So Peter says, "The time of having the judgment begin from the house of God is come", but then the house of God is us in his mind, that is real

christians, and we are saved, not so as by water, but so as by fire. Where it is a question of the judgment of God and we are difficultly saved, we are saved so as by fire, that is, we have to go through things.

A.M.H. Is that the same use of the word 'few' as in connection with Reuben's blessing, "Let Reuben live, and not die; and let his men be few" (Deuteronomy 33:6); is it the dealing of God to free him from all that attached to him naturally, and bring out what belonged to privilege?

J.T. I should say so. They were counted, that is the comment; and if we take account of what he was according to Jacob's blessing, that is a person governed by the flesh, the first-born governed by fleshly propensities, we can understand that reduction would be necessary to bring out the work of God in him. Is that your thought?

A.M.H. I thought you were indicating the same kind of thing in Noah, the dealings of God bringing about an entire removal of all that attached to the old order, so that he stands out now as in accord with God.

J.T. The deluge was a most drastic judgment, only eight survived it; the same may apply now, there are comparatively few. Judgment beginning at the house of God is a most solemn matter, but then God's government is to relieve His work from the flesh and what results from it.

Ques. Does 1 Peter 5:10 agree with that, when he says, "The God of all grace who has called you to his eternal glory in Christ Jesus, when ye have suffered for a little while, himself shall make perfect, stablish, strengthen, ground"? Does that agree with the thought of Noah being perfect in his generation?

J.T. Yes. So that we are to arm ourselves, according to his way of putting it, "with the same mind", that is, the mind in which Christ suffered. "Christ indeed has once suffered for sins, the just

for the unjust, that he might bring us to God"; so that we are not to suffer as evil-doers; he says, there is no need for that, but we are to arm ourselves with the mind of the Sufferer, "for he that has suffered in the flesh has done with sin, no longer to live the rest of his time in the flesh to men's lusts, but to God's will". But then that is the beginning of chapter 4 of Peter's first epistle, and at the end of that chapter he says, "the time of having the judgment begin from the house of God is come"; that is, we cannot enter the kingdom without suffering. "Which figure also now saves you, even baptism", that is not suffering, baptism is a figure of Christ's suffering; so normally a christian would escape by arming himself with the same mind as Christ, to suffer, but then, if it is not there, the fire is needed. Peter says, "saved through water"; Paul says, "saved, but so as through the fire".

J.C-s. Why does he say "the house of God" here, why not some other term?

J.T. Well, the allusion is to what is real, for he says, "if first from us". Although the kingdom was his particular ministry, yet he reaches the idea of a spiritual house. We carry forward so much that is extraneous, that has to be dealt with.

Ques. Are Peter's developments of the spiritual house in his epistle the outcome of the impressions he got as to the assembly in Matthew 16?

J.T. Quite so, he deals with the material side. He does not develop the government of the house, nor the assembly proper; he did not have the mystery, but he certainly had the idea of material and the idea of an assembly, as the Lord used the word. So that he really merges in Paul's doctrine from the standpoint of material; he says, ye "are being built up a spiritual house"; then in chapter 4 he says, "the time of having the judgment begin from the house of God is come".

N.K.M. Will you say a little as to the distinction between being saved by water and by fire?

J.T. Well, water is normally a christian's salvation from what is external; water is the normal thing, so Peter says, "which figure also now saves you, even baptism, not a putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the demand as before God of a good conscience, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who is at the right hand of God, gone into heaven, angels and authorities and powers being subjected to him". There is no suggestion of suffering there, it is but a gracious symbol suggesting to the young believer that the suffering is by Another, he has no part in it at all, save on the principle of faith, that he arms himself with the mind in which Christ suffered. But then Paul looks at the brethren as possibly including persons who may have brought in extraneous material, like "wood, grass, straw"; but he says the real believer, although he builds in such material, will be saved, yet so as by fire; that is suffering, I mean it is a drastic thing, it is judgment in that sense.

W.C. Had the appearance of the cloud over the tabernacle by night discipline in view?

J.T. I think so; and even the Spirit coming in in the form of cloven tongues of fire, "our God is a consuming fire" (Hebrews 12:29). It is a most necessary thing, and those who love God and are subject to His work do not dread it, they rather welcome the thought. But it is the greatest cleansing element, the most drastic element.

P.L. So that, where Abraham is taken up in relation to the thoughts of God in a distinct way, does fire not enter in much? There is the vision he has at night, and then the fire in relation to the offering up of Isaac, and even the fire in relation to the judgment of Sodom. Does all that come into our history now, Abraham representing much that pertains to this day?

J.T. Quite so. It was a furnace he saw; before that "a horror, a great darkness, fell upon him", and it says, "There was a smoking furnace, and a flame of fire which passed between those pieces" (Genesis 15:12,17). The smoking furnace would mean, I suppose, there was substance; it passed between the pieces. The ultimate deliverance of Israel would imply that experience; it undoubtedly includes the sufferings of Christ, but Israel would have to arm themselves with that mind; they come out that way.

W.C. In Psalm 105:12 the word 'few' is used in regard to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; would that suggest the choice result of God's dealings with them?

J.T. I think it is a characteristic word; God would encourage us: it is really a question of quality.

J.S.E. Is this a basic matter with us in days when darkness is thickening, the necessity of accepting this principle of fewness?

J.T. Yes, it seems a leverage in the soul, especially for young christians; one said, "Are such as are to be saved few in number?". Well, the Lord says, as it were, 'See that you are one of them', "Enter in through the narrow door" (Luke 13:24). The one who answers to the test shows he is a subject of the work of God; that is the point, what the work of God is. So manifestly, Noah meets the incoming of sin in principle in the fact that he brings in the rest, the rest that had been disturbed, the rest of God. There had been an odour of rest, and God said in His heart that He would not again destroy the world by a flood. It is a remarkable thing that we are told what God said in His heart; what followed, in Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, must have been the outcome of that; it is a question now of the heart of God. And Jacob answers to that in that he worships, as we are told in the New Testament, "on the top of his staff" (Hebrews 11:21). How much there must have been for the

heart of God in that man as He took him up as he lay on the earth with a stone for his pillow, what there was in the heart of God to develop in that man! So that he is taken up to show not only the call of God but what God can do for a man whose natural traits are all against the work of God, what God can do to bring out a result for His own heart. So that he puts the second before the first; that is, he sees that is a principle with God, and he answers to the work of God in that dispensation, for it is a question of the work of God in a man whose history is so fully given and whose natural disposition was so against the work of God. So that he comes out with these sensibilities and with definite judgment as to the mind of God and maintains the great thought of father which had come out in this second dispensation, for Abraham is the typical patriarch, as representing the great thought of father, and Jacob is able to address his sons, the heads of the twelve tribes, from the standpoint of his own experience. That is, there was much in all of them, taken together, that would be against the work of God, but they are all blessed nevertheless; that is, the great thought of the dispensation is established in Jacob, and so it goes through to the next one.

A.M.H. Is that what causes him to speak so feelingly of God as "the God that shepherded me all my life long to this day, the Angel that redeemed me from all evil" (Genesis 48:15, 16) with the consciousness of what he was in himself as standing in the way of the thoughts of God?

J.T. I think that is what is meant, what God had been to him. And now in his own sons he cannot expect anything different, so his blessing, unlike that of Moses, takes into account the working of the flesh in them all. It is a very hopeful and encouraging thought for us that the work of God survives even the worst that is in us. One has to confess before

God, as God begins to work with him, just what his known propensities are; and wherever the work of God is, you will find a clear confession of that, and that is the next thing, to set your face against your natural propensities as naming them, and God is with you in that.

J.C-s. There seems no hesitation on Jacob's part in accepting his name; that is often where we are hampered, we do not accept our name.

J.T. We do not tell everything out, we reserve so much; in fact there is so much we like in ourselves.

So that is the end of the second dispensation, that the work of God triumphs and is indestructible; it goes through. Jacob makes a great deal of the cave of Machpelah, as indicating his own burial, meaning that everything is to come up presently; he was conscious there was something there that would appear in the resurrection. That is another thing that helps us, that every item of the work of God will come up and shine according to divine counsels in the resurrection.

Rem. So that it is stated that Abraham bought the field.

J.T. Yes, and he says so much about it; he causes Joseph to swear as to it, and then the others too, and tells us who had been buried there before. Joseph also wishes to be carried up and buried in Canaan, but he makes no point of Machpelah.

Ques. Why do you speak of this as the end of one dispensation?

J.T. Well, it is the patriarchal dispensation, beginning really with Noah, but involving the call of Abraham. God is now taking on something else in Egypt; and the next one is what we call the Mosaic dispensation, it comes in under Moses in Exodus, and runs on to the end of Malachi.

J.S.E. Is the number of souls that came into Egypt given to emphasise the continued thought of

fewness? The number was very small, but all that God gets He gets out of that number, whatever He has to deal with in it.

J.T. So the patriarchal idea is stressed showing that the thought of the previous dispensation is carried forward, "These are the names of the sons of Israel who had come into Egypt; with Jacob had they come, each with his household"; that is, the patriarchal thought is carried through. Then the next point is that sonship is introduced, so that God says to Moses, according to Exodus 4:22, "Say to Pharaoh, Thus saith Jehovah: Israel is my son, my firstborn. And I say to thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me. And if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will kill thy son, thy firstborn". In order to understand the verses read in Malachi, we have to bear this verse in mind, it underlies all that follows.

N.K.M. Are you connecting that allusion referred to in Exodus with sonship in connection with sparing them as a man spareth his own son that serveth him?

J.T. That is exactly what I was thinking of, that Jehovah uses the words "his own son"; the quality that belongs to sonship was there.

Ques. Would the two thoughts be maintained, the thought of the peculiar treasure and sonship in Exodus and in Malachi? God had in view in Exodus 19 that, in making a covenant, He might have a peculiar possession for Himself. Does He secure it in Malachi in the remnant at the close?

J.T. Quite so, and the covenant is really a provisional thing to release sonship, the real thought in the heart of God. He said "in his heart" -- well, He said a great deal more in His heart than is alluded to in Genesis 8; sonship was in His heart, it was in His heart before the world was, and now He sends to Pharaoh about it, "Let my son go", He says, "that he may serve me". The covenant was introduced at Sinai, and what underlies that is that the idea of son

was there; it was to release the affections proper to sonship, and that is how it works out now in the new covenant. The knowledge of the love of God in the new covenant is to release us so that He might have sons before Him released from all that hinders them.

Rem. Not merely in purpose, but consciously.

J.T. Quite so; that was what He said in His heart at the very beginning. In Ephesians we get more in the heart of God than in Genesis 8.

J.C-s. So drinking into the cup of the new covenant in the Supper would greatly help us in reaching sonship afterwards.

J.T. That is the setting of it; it is to set us free for the thoughts of God before the world was. The ministerial section of scripture begins in Exodus, running on to David and Solomon, and the prophets are to call the people back to that. We are now in the ministerial section which involves authority. In Exodus 20 God speaks of the thousands of those that love Him, but there is much that is hindering that love, perhaps they could not be found, so the Lord Jesus comes in in spirit in chapter 21 and says, "I love", that is, you have a concrete case of One who loves, "I love my master, my wife, and my children". That is the Model, and all that follows is to set us free for that, for Christ is the great Leader in sonship. So that the One who says "I love" in chapter 21 is the same as is portrayed in chapter 28 as the high priest adorned with beautiful garments, the high priestly garments.

W.C. Are the two brought together in what Jehovah says in the first chapter of Malachi, "A son honoureth his father, and a servant his master"?

J.T. Quite so, and the brother who is really not a son is abhorrent to God in this book. When God says, "I have loved you", He goes on, "But ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us?". Think of people asking God that! Then He says, "Was not Esau

Jacob's brother? ... and I loved Jacob, and I hated Esau; and made his mountains a desolation, and gave his inheritance to the jackals of the wilderness. ... They shall build, but I will throw down; and men shall call them the territory of wickedness, and the people against whom Jehovah hath indignation for ever". All that is against God is beclouding the idea of a son; a brother ought to be a son. The imitation of brotherhood is abhorrent to God; it beclouds what He has in His heart. So that is what Malachi means. There was a time when Levi answered to the mind of God; the book contemplates that that is to be reached now, and hence these verses we have read. It is unmistakable; there is the heart of God, He is finding something that answers to His thoughts, "His own son that serveth him".

Ques. What is the thought in the "book of remembrance"?

J.T. That they are never to be forgotten. Our sins are remembered no more, but ourselves are never to be forgotten. It is "before him"; it is the idea of sonship, before Him, that they should be "holy and blameless before him in love" (Ephesians 1:4).

Rem. So that these features you are speaking of seen in this remnant were so pleasurable to Jehovah that He has this book of remembrance written before Him.

J.T. That is the idea, this book is before Him, they are never away from His eye and heart.

J.S.E. Is it right to say that the more the saints are consciously in sonship, the more they are before Jehovah?

J.T. Consciously, you mean? Yes, God looks for that.

J.S.E. This thought of the covenant releasing sonship is peculiarly precious. I wondered if this chapter in Malachi does not show how peculiarly

precious the consciousness of sonship amongst the saints is to God.

J.T. I notice it is mentioned here not to make any show of what they were going on with; it is that they spake often one to another; we are not told what they said, but Jehovah saw what underlay all those speakings often. There are, of course, those who think we have too many meetings; maybe we have under certain circumstances; but the opposite is generally the case, for really the life of the saints is in relation to one another.

J.S.E. In a general way, you would say such a complaint is probably the language of an Esau?

J.T. I think that is right. 'Too many meetings'. 'Too much ministry'. All that, you may be sure, shows there is a want of the understanding of eternal life, for it lies in our relations with one another.

N.K.M. This is characteristic speaking on their part.

J.T. That is the point. The leading point is they do that, showing they had pleasure in one another.

Ques. Is the spirit of this carried on into the next dispensation, the beginning of Luke's gospel?

J.T. It has often been remarked, and I suppose we may take Simeon and Anna as the typical answer in the New Testament. Simeon is said to have been a man in Jerusalem, which is a collateral idea belonging really to David and Solomon. He was a man of Jerusalem, that was his place; he would think of it when the Lord's eye rested upon it; as He came in to Jerusalem from Galilee, He wept over it. It was the city of the great King. Simeon was there and he received the Babe in his arms, that is, he takes in all that is there, in faith; the fulness of divine thoughts was there. And here is a man who takes all that on, as it were; he takes it into his arms. It is thus he is able to speak of Christ as "a light for revelation of

the Gentiles and the glory of thy people Israel" (Luke 2:32).

Ques. Would the book of remembrance include all the redeemed company?

J.T. Well, it is those "that feared Jehovah"; others did not.

Ques. I was thinking about the brother who had not reached sonship.

J.T. Well, as we were remarking about Esau, he had not reached it, though he was a nominal brother and had all the attention paid to him that a brother deserved, but he never developed sonship. It is in David really the idea of sonship comes out, and, alongside of that, Jerusalem. "Jerusalem above is free" (Galatians 4:26); sonship underlies the city. The idea is a free city; that is a thought that is current among men, they speak of the freedom of the city. Certain cities from the middle ages had certain privileges of that kind. But in the mind of God, the freedom of a city must result from sonship being there. "Jerusalem above is free", that is the idea, sonship attaches to it; it is the great thought worked out in Galatians. I think Simeon, a man in Jerusalem, answered typically to what Jerusalem really is, a man who takes Christ into his arms and blesses God and says, "Lord, now thou lettest thy bondman go, according to thy word, in peace; for mine eyes have seen thy salvation".

Ques. I wondered if this great thought you suggest in Exodus 21 is reflected here, love in bondmanship.

J.T. I think so; that is, love will take up the attitude of bondmanship.

E.J.McB. So your point is not so much the question of whether there are any that fear God, but whether we are amongst those who fear Him.

J.T. That is the point, I think. To say they include all the redeemed would be to say too much. The thought is that others were not doing it.

W.C. It is predicated of Levi in chapter 2, that "he feared me"; there were those who proved themselves true in a crisis, and in this book it was really a remnant within a remnant.

J.T. Yes, the book contemplates what that remnant had degenerated to. Then there were those, however few, who feared the Lord.

The last point, I think, embodies what we have in mind more than any: Christ is presenting Himself to the assembly. "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify these things to you in the assemblies. I am the root and offspring of David, the bright and morning star". These things are not lost sight of, they are all in mind, meaning that the whole assembly is in His mind. The economy implies assemblies, but the church is in His heart; hence the answer here is from the Spirit and the bride, not the Spirit and the assembly, but the Spirit and the bride, a most exalted thought; the bride is speaking in consonance with the Spirit; that, I think, is the allusion. Now we can say that; it is what is developing spiritually at the present time. First we have the economy, that is the public position in the assemblies; the one idea that is in the heart of Christ is expressed in the bride, not the assembly, but the bride.

J.S.E. Unified affection.

J.T. Exactly. What we really reach in our assembly services when we pass out of the externals into the spiritual, and begin to touch what is in the heart of God and the heart of Christ. This idea of what is in God's heart is to be always kept in mind, the bride. It is not the public economy; that is all provisional, the primary thought is one, that is, the bride, so that she comes down "as a bride adorned for her husband".

J.S.E. "My dove, mine undefiled, is but one" (Song of Songs 6:9). Is that the idea?

J.T. Quite so.

E.J.McB. What He has peculiarly for Himself, for "He that has the bride is the bridegroom"; John had said that.

Ques. And what is involved in the "Come"?

J.T. Well, I think He enters into His rights according to divine counsels; the time has come for that. It is not 'Come for us', but it is "Come" here. As has often been remarked, the Lord is coming out publicly; they want to see Him honoured.

A.M.H. Would His angel testifying in the assembly be an incentive to keep before the assembly every feature that there might be this unifying of the work of Christ?

J.T. Yes, the testimony goes on there; but it is very glorious, I think, that, however great the confusion, this one thought is kept in mind; the Spirit of God is keeping at that all the time and now He has the assembly with Him in this character, the bride.

A.M.H. That is, she is taking on a universal outlook now.

J.T. Yes, she is able to speak in this way.

J.C-s. It is the only time the bride's voice is formally heard.

J.T. I think that is right. It is a most exalted thought, "the Spirit and the bride". He has her with Him now. We were speaking this week elsewhere about the Comforter, mentioned four times only, and all in John 14, 15 and 16. First, the Father gives Him that He might be with the saints for ever; secondly, the Father sends Him in the Son's name, which would allude to the side of the economy in the assembly; He teaches as to all things and brings all things that the Lord says to our remembrance; thirdly, the Son sends Him as having been with the Father; He stresses that He goes forth from with the Father, and He says, "He shall bear witness concerning me". What can that mean

but that the Spirit works out the Father's thoughts, the Spirit being with Him? This suggests to us that the Spirit testifies as to the Father's thoughts about the Son, as Abraham's servant did about Isaac. So the Spirit is here in that connection, undoubtedly including Paul's doctrine, and hence the bride, the assembly, for Christ; because the Father would have that, as Abraham would have that for Isaac, so the Father would have such a one for Christ, and now He has the bride with Him.

Ques. You would say the word "Come" here is in view of His taking up His rights?

J.T. Manifestly. We are in the sphere of testimony and the Spirit and the bride want the Lord Jesus to come out into public display to effect all the divine thoughts.

P.L. Does she witness in that way to the consistent and patient toil of the Spirit?

J.T. I was thinking of that. What satisfaction to the Spirit to have her with Him here, to have her join in that word, "the Spirit and the bride say, Come". One has often thought that the Lord's presentation of Himself stands in relation to the testimony of His Person; the root of David is His deity, and the offspring of David is His humanity here; that is John and Matthew respectively. The assembly understands that, the Spirit has brought her to it, she understands the Lord in that way as the bright and morning star, the Luminary over against the terrible darkness we have here.

SELECTION IN DIVINE COUNSEL AND IN TESTIMONY

Matthew 16:28; Matthew 17:1 - 8; Matthew 26:36 - 46; Luke 8:49 - 55

I have in mind to speak about divine selection, and, as a secondary application of the thought, to speak of it in relation to service or testimony here; but the primary thought is in relation to the divine counsels. The fact that selection or choice is related to these counsels implies that there were some who were not selected; before the selected ones or the unselected ones had any being, they were all before God. The idea of selection or choice necessarily implies that all were not included in the choice; some were excluded. And so we have the idea of foreknowledge in God, meaning that He, as looking down the whole course of time, saw all, even in regard to life; He foresaw a time when it would be needed and the need felt, and promised it. In connection with this side of the truth, we have the idea of choice connected with our circumstances here, that is, that all things work together for good to those who are the called according to God's purpose, and then the thought of foreknowledge, and that this led the way for what is particularly in the divine heart, that is sonship. "Whom he has foreknown", we are told, "he has also predestinated to be conformed to the image of his Son, so that he should be the firstborn among many brethren" (Romans 8:29). That is perhaps the most choice bit that we can get, as bringing in what is in the divine heart, foreknowledge, predestination, and conformation to the image of God's Son that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. That is the great divine thought, the thought of God's heart seen in Christ and in those that are like Him, conformed to His image. That is, as I said, the most choice selection of words that you can get as bringing

out how, as God begins to speak to His people in regard to their circumstances here, He moves on to His own thoughts. And then further, so that the whole range before Him might come into view, the Spirit says, "Whom he has predestinated, these also he has called"; that is time, it is history. We have to learn, dear brethren, to think of God as He is, that is always in the present; and then as the historical God, that is God historically; and then as the God of prophecy, the God of the future. The more intelligent we are, and the more we love Him and know Him, the more we shall begin with the ever-present God, Him who is. That is how intelligent believers begin in thinking of God, "He who is, and who was, and who is to come" (Revelation 1:8). Others who are the outcome of later thoughts, like the living creatures, begin with the historical God, this thought having its own place (Revelation 4:8); but affection regulated by spiritual intelligence will begin with God as He is, He who is, first, for it is a present God who has spoken to us and who has put His love into our hearts. So that we should learn how to speak to God as God, not only to recite historic facts in His ear, even the most precious things relating to Christ but not that only; that is right in its place, but God looks for more than that; if we speak to Him who is, we ought to be able to speak about Himself. So that whom He foreknew He "predestinated to be conformed to the image of his Son"; that is all a matter of counsels before the world was. We know God there in relation to that, but then the next thing is, "Whom he has predestinated, these also he has called"; that is historical, "and whom he has called, these also he has justified"; that is historical too, and "Whom he has justified, these also he has glorified", that also is historical, I mean, as applied to any christian at any given time. The third set of historical things in that chapter has in mind

the saints being used here as glorified, God intending to use glorified persons in His service; He is the God of glory, and surely, as the God of it, He would attach it to, and bring it about in, those who are carrying on His service; He would make us glorious. So the Lord says, "The glory which thou hast given me I have given them, that they may be one, as we are one" (John 17:22), in view of testimony here. So that, if He has justified us, He has glorified us, in order that we should be representative of Him in our service. All service is enveloped in glory in the divine thought; we are "vessels of mercy", as we are told, "before prepared for glory" (Romans 9:23). And that leads me to what I have in mind, that these three selections, all relating to the same three persons, have in mind service and testimony at the present time. I speak thus, dear brethren, so that we may see how the word, selection, or choice, stands, that the more we know God, the more we see that everything must work out from His selection. It is not anybody or everybody; it comes to this in the end, it is divine selection. It may not appear at first, but it will appear. It took a good while perhaps before the apostle Paul shone out as an elect vessel, but it was in the Lord's mind when He spoke of him first; He told Ananias of Damascus, "This man is an elect vessel to me" (Acts 9:15), and what a vessel of mercy before prepared for glory he was! Nothing, in a way, would be more interesting than to trace the history of that great vessel and see how the glory shone in his service.

Well now, the first passage is to bring out that the selected ones are to have the great advantage; they are to have every possible advantage that the divine mind can devise. You cannot conceive, dear brethren, that God would be at all meagre in His provision for those who serve Him; the matter is so important. His thought is not to wait for the future for glory; we are brought into a system of glory, and every

agent in it is functioning in glory; whether it be actual display in power, or in a moral sense, glory is there, and God intends it to be there; and hence the selection for advantage. The Lord had spoken to Peter in this chapter 16; the Father had spoken to him; and that reminds me of another beautiful truth entering into what I am saying, the Father's part in those who recognise Christ. The Lord says of those who came under His influence, "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and have set you that ye should go and that ye should bear fruit, and that your fruit should abide" (John 15:16). Of them the Lord says to His Father, "I have manifested thy name to the men whom thou gavest me". And He says, "They have kept thy word". You say, 'They were given out of counsel'; well, it does not say that there; the Lord says, "The men whom thou gavest me out of the world"; that is another matter. They have had their part in the world, and the more they have had to do with it the harder it would be to make out of them what is in the divine mind. There is no diminution of that at all; "I have manifested thy name to the men whom thou gavest me out of the world", He says, "and they have kept thy word". Well, who is to be credited with that? It is the Minister. Whatever accrued in the wilderness, in a certain sense, was accredited to Moses; the people were given to him, you might say, out of Egypt. Think of what they were: what a difficult set of men they were! what a difficult man Moses himself was until he was brought into a state which was a type of Christ as the great Minister! Jehovah, as it were, gave them to Moses out of Egypt; indeed He says in Matthew 2:15, "Out of Egypt have I called my son". Sonship there is cited in Matthew as applying to Christ, but in Exodus 4 it applies to Israel. Who could see the traits of a son in them? They were there nevertheless; they were there potentially, and

the ministerial service was to bring that out. Hosea shows what skill and patience were exerted in bringing it out in Israel. "When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son", and then we are told what skill was expended upon him. Moses' ministry was to bring that out, and it could be shown that it was brought out. Moses' blessing of the tribes in Deuteronomy shows that it was there, the traits of sonship were there, all the fruit, under God, of the ministerial service; but the work was God's, so that "it shall be said of Jacob and of Israel, What hath God wrought!" (Numbers 23:23). That is to say, all extraneous matter should be set aside in ministerial power so that what was of God should shine out. That is how the matter is; so the Lord says, "Thou gavest them me", and He immediately says, "they have kept thy word". And not only that, but He says, "Now they have known that all things that thou hast given me are of thee; for the words which thou hast given me I have given them, and they have received them, and have known truly that I came out from thee, and have believed that thou sentest me". How did all that come about? Through the wonderful service of Christ, in spite of the fact that they were out of the world. And the Lord says, "Righteous Father, -- and the world has not known thee", how He knew it! How He saw what it meant in dealing with it; He sees it, of course, in every sense; He sees it in every one of us, He sees those He is working with. What sorrow of heart we cause Him as He is working out the divine thought in us.

So, according to this chapter, the Father had spoken to Peter so that Peter speaks about Christ. He says, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God". The Lord says, 'The Father revealed that to you'. But then, in spite of that wonderful treasure in his heart and mind, Peter was out of the world,

and immediately he would turn the Lord Jesus away from the path of suffering; it is the spirit of the world; "God be favourable to thee, Lord; this shall in no wise be unto thee", as if he would flatter the Lord and divert Him from the path of the will of God; that is what he would do. Is this tendency in Peter only? Not at all, brethren; this incident as to Peter is only given in order that each might see that these are the terrible contrarieties the Lord has to deal with; and He deals with them, and, in dealing with them, He gives us every possible advantage, so that He may have vessels of glory. So He says, "There are some of those standing here that shall not taste of death at all until they shall have seen the Son of man coming in his kingdom". And one of these was Peter; the Lord knew that. In spite of the fact that he would turn Him away from the path of the divine will, the Lord says, I am not giving up. What a comfort that is! Where would any of us be if He did give up when these terrible contrarieties come out in us! He does not give up; it is to bring out the divine workmanship. He reaches His end. So He says, "There are some of those standing here that shall not taste of death at all until they shall have seen the Son of man coming in his kingdom". One can understand how Peter would say, 'Well, I am ashamed of myself for what I said to the Lord; He rebuked me, He called me Satan. Can He ever make anything out of me?' I hope he did say that. Anyway, he was a man with a tender conscience; he was capable of being affected. No doubt he did feel that he should not have said that to the Lord. The Lord turned round and said, "Get away behind me, Satan; thou art an offence to me, for thy mind is not on the things that are of God, but on the things that are of men". How stern the Lord can be! But He is dealing with the incorrigible flesh that is there and has to be judged in our hearts, so

that we should be aware of it. Now He says, "There are some of those standing here". He does not say how many, He does not indicate their names, they would all be challenged by it. What a wonderful thing it would be! And six days after He selected those three, Peter and James and John, and took them up to a high mountain apart and "was transfigured before them. And his face shone as the sun ... and lo, Moses and Elias", not "two men" here, it is the dignity of the persons, "appeared to them talking with him". These were two great servants in their day; God has taken wonderful pains with them, and He has brought them to this; now there they are, Moses and Elias, in the glory. No history is given, every one is supposed to know them in the glory. They are the handiwork of God; they are taken up with Jesus. We are not told what they were saying here; it is the dignity of the persons. Luke says, "two men", that is to bring out that side; but Matthew is the dignity of the persons whom you see as the Lord is pleased to take you into the vista of glory; behind the persons is the handiwork of God there. The Lord is transcendently great there; His countenance is like the sun shining and His raiment "white as the light"; but still these men are able to talk to Him. He is great and glorious beyond words, but they are great, too. Let us not think that we detract from Christ in saying that His handiwork is glorious too; it is really glorifying Him. Well, I cannot say more about this passage except to point out how perfectly the result was reached in Peter. It took a long time; Peter represents what is reached in a lifetime. We have a full-size picture of him from the time he was converted, and what may be done in the lifetime of a man like that! So that we have dates: that is, we have the time when he was about to put off his tabernacle. That is not an accidental word there, it is a spiritual word. He had used it

wrongly on the mount; he says, 'I am not going to do that again'. He had said, "Let us make here three tabernacles: for thee one, and for Moses one, and one for Elias". He is never to say that again, nor did he. He says, "the putting off of my tabernacle is speedily to take place" (2 Peter 1:14), that is, his end is reached; it had already been indicated. He says, 'The Lord told me about it'. And, so that we might see that the end is reached in him, he immediately proceeds to provide for the saints after his departure and tells them that he had not followed cunningly devised fables, but they were "eye-witnesses of his majesty". How his heart was full of that thought! It cannot be doubted that it shone in him from the time the Spirit came down right through. The Spirit would give him such a view, such a sense, of what he saw on the mount, that it would shine out in his service and in his suffering. But he was a vessel of mercy aforetime fitted for glory, so the glory shone. And he goes on to say they heard the voice of the Father saying to Him from "the excellent glory: This is my beloved Son, in whom I have found my delight". He says, 'You have heard that, and we heard it when we were with Him on the holy mount'. So full of the thought is he now, the divine thought being reached in him, that he can use such words, even attaching holiness to the very mount itself. Then, as to John and James, how this shone in them too! I suppose no one speaks more about glory than John. It is for us to work the thought out in them. James, who, we are carefully told, was the brother of John, was slain by the sword of Herod; he suffered. Peter waited a little longer; he knew his time would come, and it did come. John says the Lord alluded to Peter's death as that by which "he should glorify God"; he died in glory.

Well now, I go on to chapter 26, and the next thing is being drawn into the sufferings of Christ by

selection. I use the word 'selection', or 'choice', or 'election', but it is selection I have in mind, and how it challenges us! 'Is it so', you say, 'am I to be included?' God would give you to understand that after all, whatever you do, however much you may seem to do, you must come back to His choice, and the more you get on in the truth the more you will be concerned that you may come back to that thought that the Lord has chosen you. I should not like to have any other thought than that, that whatever I may do, it is a question of the Lord's choice, and of being prepared for glory, that is, the glory of service. So we come to suffering. I cannot say very much because of the time, but, before I proceed, I would remark that, whilst Peter identifies the holy mount and the glory of it, "the Son of man coming in his kingdom", with his public testimony, that is, the making known of the truth, he identifies the public side with eldership, he says, 'I exhort you that are elders'. You understand that we are not assuming to have official elders; still there are elders, and we are to know them too, and we are to know how to behave in relation to them, not to receive any accusation against one of them without good testimony, and that we are to entreat them as fathers. God is careful about these matters, but Peter says, "The elders which are among you I exhort, who am their fellow-elder and witness of the sufferings of the Christ, who also am partaker of the glory about to be revealed". So that we have now something that bears on our care, and the Lord has greatly stressed the thought of care or eldership of late. All are brought into it, of course; the epistles to the Corinthians do not say a word about eldership but they stress all the saints, even the one least esteemed in the assembly is not to be ignored; he is to have to do with the administrative matters. But still one scripture cannot abrogate another, and one scripture

holds as a principle, and where there are elders there are elders, and they are to be respected as elders, and on their side, they are to do the work of eldership, and that means suffering. There are two words used, one is 'elder', the other 'overseer'; they should be combined; an elder has moral weight, an overseer oversees and attends to things; they really refer to the same person. So there is no ground at all for episcopalianism or presbyterianism, the two ideas really refer to the same person, the looking after of things. "If one does not know how to conduct his own house, how shall he take care of the assembly of God?" (1 Timothy 3:5). "Take care", that is a good word, referring to our meetings for care. But I am speaking of suffering and how the Lord selected those three men that they should be real witnesses of His sufferings. Peter says he was a "witness of the sufferings of the Christ". They failed in it; fancy their going to sleep! The Lord carefully selected them; He says to the others, "Sit here until I go away and pray yonder", and then He takes these three with Him to be near Him. What a favour! How they must have been ashamed of themselves afterwards! As they were asleep on the mount, so they were asleep here in the garden of pressure. The top of the mountain does not suggest pressure, but the valley suggests pressure. But they are there, and they were selected by the Saviour who was about to die to be with Him in those last few moments, but they missed it. Still the Lord does not give them up. How He must have felt it! "Thus ye have not been able to watch one hour with me?", He said, as He went away again and prayed and told His Father what He was going to go through, and said, "Not as I will, but as thou wilt". And they were asleep; but He finally said to them, "The spirit indeed is ready", He knew that; that is the potential side, that is the golden thread He is working on; it is there. And in

time all that miserable flesh in its weakness and cowardice will pass away, and they will become fixed in their souls as they take on the mind of the suffering Christ. "Arm yourselves", says Peter, "with the same mind; for he that has suffered in the flesh has done with sin, no longer to live the rest of his time in the flesh to men's lusts, but to God's will" (1 Peter 4:1,2). That man will be an elder, he has done with sin. It is a remarkable way of working it out, arming ourselves with the same mind, Christ having suffered for sin in the flesh we have done with it. How can we have done with it save in the power of the Spirit of God? But we come to it, the Lord sees to it that we come to it. But Peter is an elder, a witness of the sufferings of Christ and of the glory. The first epistle of Peter deals with this matter, and lays down the principles that govern us as old brothers and young brothers, but the outstanding thought is the sufferings of Christ; it is only in the apprehension of these we can take on the service of eldership, whether we are old or whether we are young.

Finally, in the passage in Luke we have the selection again of the same three men, and what I have been saying about the sufferings of Christ must enter into this, because it is a question of the saints, of whether there is life in a person, a nominal believer, or not. The Lord is about to do something very spiritual, and what He is stressing now is that He is aiming at what is very spiritual, because that is needed for the eternal thoughts. He is preparing us for the eternal thoughts, and incidentally, at least in the meantime (for this same material is to work out here in the formation of the assembly) the chapter treats of the component parts of the assembly. We have often spoken of it before, but it is well to introduce it here so as to get the bearing of this part of the service. The demoniac is seen sitting, clothed and in his right mind, and the man wants to be with

Jesus, but the Lord says, "Return to thine house and relate how great things God has done for thee", and he did. That is one side, one element of assembly material, that is the intelligence and the courage and ability to stand by oneself; he stood by himself in Decapolis, the concentration of cities. Referring to our time, the time of cities, how young men are called upon to stand alone in the midst of the corruption and wickedness. He did it by himself and he did it well, he testified to what Jesus had done for him in a place where Jesus was rejected. They asked Him to leave. Think of being called upon to serve in a place where Jesus is rejected, really it is the whole world. Now it is necessary that the believer should be able to stand by himself, and then to be put in his place in relation to others, as the boards of the tabernacle. Then we have the woman who is mentioned here, she is the second component part of the assembly. And then we have the child. 'Oh', you say, 'she is only twelve years old; children should be segregated and taught separately'. Yes, and sometimes taught by an unconverted person; where can you get a spiritual thought from an unconverted person? The thought with this child is spirituality, a remarkable thought which is not stressed with the man or the woman. I am not saying it is not there, but spirituality is stressed with regard to this girl of twelve years old; she must be raised into a spiritual atmosphere, and Peter, James and John are selected to be in that company in which she is to be raised. Can we not assume, dear brethren, that the previous selection enters into this? I am a witness of the glory, I am a partaker of the sufferings of Christ, now I am spiritual, for I can only be glorified as spiritual. I am not saying they had the Spirit yet, for they had not, but these gospels were written after the whole of christianity was propagated in the world. They have a peculiar place: they are to show how, as

the result of the handiwork of Christ, the apostles worked like Jesus and reached the same end, so if they are to be spiritual, they must have the Spirit. And so here we have to assume that this part of Luke has in mind the component parts of the assembly; the first is intelligence; the second is the sensibilities in the woman. The truth is that the woman there represents the body, for the virtue came out of Christ and she was affected by what came out of Christ. We can understand that now because we understand in measure the mystery. She is a daughter, and she is sent away, and she is accredited with faith; that means she is trustworthy, it is her own faith, what she had. She had been untruthful in spirit, but she is not that any more, she is to be transparent, the whole matter is out in regard of her; she is an element in the assembly, dear brethren; that is essential. Trustworthiness, subjective feelings and sensibilities are most essential; indeed the assembly cannot be formed without the subjective side for the body depends upon it. And then the twelve-year-old child. Is she too young to be received into fellowship? Well, I believe if we say that we are cutting across this scripture. The Lord is aiming at this young girl being brought into a spiritual atmosphere, and He brings those three men with Him, selects them, Peter and James and John; and the mother and father of-the child; that would be six, and the girl would make as living, the seventh. What a scene is formed in that house! and the Lord says to her, "Child, arise". What was in His mind at that time? The Spirit of God records this years afterwards, after Peter and all the others had come into the good of the Spirit, and knew what spirituality meant. What times they must have had in that upper room after the Spirit of God came down! What spiritual power was there! What spiritual influence anyone converted in this way, like the man who

lay at the gate of the temple, would come under! and so here, they would not forget this. Why did the Lord ask them to go? Well, surely He is endeavouring to bring them to the thought of spirituality, because the flute players and the instrumentalists are all put out; the Lord puts them all out, and replaces them with Peter and James and John. So that the child of twelve and older, I am not saying a lot older, is brought up in the spiritual setting where they get spiritual impressions, where they get food from those who love them, that is their parents, and where they grow up. What would this girl in after years think of Peter, James and John? How she would remember; and supposing she lived on and came into fellowship, as doubtless she did, how would she regard Peter? If you were to ask a girl whom she knew to go to a Sunday school, she would say, 'You go to the meeting, go to Peter, James and John; there you will get impressions that will stick to you'. That is what she would say; and that is what we say now, some of us who have come to see what these things mean, and how the Lord is selecting His servants and preparing them. They would see what He did and the effect of it on this girl and on the whole house, and they would remember it afterwards. Peter raised up the woman later in Joppa, as you will remember, and he presented her living. She had been a good sewer, a good garment maker, but now you have a living sister in your midst. That was his thought, and God is glorified in His doing it.

May God bless these thoughts.

PASSING OVER JORDAN

Joshua 3:1 - 17

F.I. We have been looking on three previous occasions at three aspects of the death of Christ: the passover, the Red Sea and the brazen serpent. This is the fourth aspect we have in view. I suppose that all these four definite settings have relation to the death of Christ as reached by us in all our exercises.

J.T. The passover, the Red Sea and the brazen serpent, and now Jordan, give us a fourfold presentation of the one great truth. Now we have come to the great barrier between us and the heavenly inheritance. It is how we go over in this chapter. Joshua had been encouraged by Jehovah in chapter 2 by the tidings of the spies. The way is clear for faith; the spies said to Joshua, "Of a surety Jehovah has given the whole land into our hands, and even all the inhabitants of the land faint because of us" (verse 24). It was a complete testimony. It is a question of faith, not of sight. The commencement is rising early, so that our vision is clear, and our sensibilities keen. It is a principle you get all through Scripture. It is one of the greatest things that is in view here, so that every beclouding element must be guarded against. There is a certain denial in rising early. The Lord Himself speaks of it as applying to Himself, reminding us of the need of it. Self-denial comes into it, but it implies clarity of vision. We want to think clearly of what is before us, to disallow everything that is beclouding, and have clear vision. So it says, "Joshua rose early in the morning". We cannot cross until we come to the Jordan. It is not a thing to be dealt with beforehand.

F.I. There is a space of time: they lodged at the Jordan.

J.T. The lodging is the next thing. He and all the children of Israel "lodged there before they passed

over". They are to study carefully each step. How much enters into this spiritually. There is a loosening of all natural links. It is a solemn matter whether we can pass over. It implies a relinquishing of all that is natural, the end of human life here, as we are in the flesh, so that all natural links are relinquished for the moment. Hence the carefulness with which we approach the matter.

C.K. Would you say that the last aspect, the brazen serpent, was preparatory to this?

J.T. It was to release the spiritual element in us. It is a change of man really. Typically, the brazen serpent is the end of what is so incorrigible, the flesh. They spake against Moses and against God, and there was nothing but destruction for them apart from the brazen serpent being lifted up, and as they looked at it there was life. The flesh is utterly incorrigible. The serpent speaks of the Lord dealing with that judicially. After that the springing well comes in, positive support in the Spirit, and it says they sing to it: "Rise up, well! sing unto it: Well which princes digged, which the nobles of the people hollowed out at the word of the lawgiver, with their staves" (Numbers 21:17,18). It is in the power of the Spirit only that we can go over Jordan. It is a spiritual matter. After the Spirit is brought in typically, they go straight on their journey until they come to Shittim.

C.K. So the very order of these experiences is instructive.

J.T. Quite so.

E.R. It is the recognition of the Spirit; the earnest of the inheritance in a believer.

J.T. Yes, it includes that. "Now he that establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us, is God, who also has sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts" (2 Corinthians 1:21). "The

earnest of our inheritance" is included here. They have tasted it already; it is worth going in had not passed this way before.

J.T. That is stated, "Ye have not passed this way heretofore". These points are most important because we are apt to deal with these matters as doctrine, whereas it is intended to be something experimental. When we come to Jordan we pass over; we do not pass over before, though we may talk about it as now. They lodged there before they passed over. The matter is to be considered. Lodging means that you are on the way, but you are where you can consider what is before you.

J.E. Would you say a little as to the fact that they are now with Joshua; it was Moses before?

J.T. Moses is the direct authority of God. To understand Joshua you have to go back to Exodus 17, where he is first mentioned. He is a military leader there. That is Christ, but Christ as understood secretly in our souls, as overcoming Amalek, the flesh in us. He has been becoming dominant, until he has complete control. Now he is in control, and Jehovah says to him: "This day will I begin to magnify thee in the sight of all Israel, that they may know that as I was with Moses, so will I be with thee". That is, Christ becomes more and more. Moses never went over Jordan. Joshua is marking another view of Christ, from a different outlook. Moses is more public, representing authority. Joshua is the spiritual leader which takes us into Canaan. It is not even Aaron. It is another view of Christ which increases in the believer's soul experience.

E.S.H. Does it commence by overcoming Amalek? That is where we first hear of Joshua.

J.T. Moses is there too, but in an intercessory character. Joshua is the warrior. It is Christ apprehended in a distinct way. It extended back so far

as forty years before. Thus Joshua is to be understood.

E.R. Is the great point to have true spiritual association with Christ in His present position as intercessor?

J.T. Moses is not Joshua. They run along together for a long time, but Moses is not there now. He is dead. That is the finish of his service. We have here to see what this new leader means. We are not left to learn what he means until he is actually in the position to lead us over Jordan.

Ques. What is the thought in "at the end of three days"?

J.T. That is a period of exercise. Three is always full testimony in the way of something that is needed here. It would be that you have ample testimony for what is needed in the lodging place. It is a question of spiritual care. So that in John 20 the doors were shut through fear of the Jews. No natural or religious element is to come in.

Ques. Is the third day connected with resurrection?

J.T. It is not three days and three nights. The Lord lay in the earth three days and three nights. Three days is connected with visibility. It is a question of seeing. What have I learned in all those forty years since I came out of Egypt? I have learned a good bit about Moses, but he is dead. I have also learned about Aaron, but he is dead too. Joshua has been with us all these forty years since he fought against Amalek at Rephidim. He was dependent on the intercession on high. There it is Satan is overcome in the leadership of this man. He is a qualified warrior there. The conflict was severe, up and down, up and down, but Joshua overcame. I refer specially to the young. There are times when you felt you would give the whole thing up. You say 'The enemy seems to be overcoming me'. What preserved you?

You confess in the office or your workshop. What a help it is to have the consciousness of some support at a critical time like that. Moses on high is praying, but there is also a man leading me, and I cannot help but remember him. What happened there was written for a memorial in the book, and rehearsed in the ears of Joshua. It was never to be forgotten what happened that day.

J.E. The ark is very prominent in this chapter.

J.T. The ark is another view of Christ. If I am asked about my christianity, is this a matter of history? But what about my spiritual history; not the countries I have visited, not the business I am engaged in? Can I take account of spiritual history? Look back and see; I am past the Red Sea and Sinai. Have I passed this and that exercise and come to Shittim?

E.S.H. Do we not see how the Lord has been helping us all along when we review the way?

J.T. In the wilderness, it is Moses, the authority of Christ. But in the quiet hours of the night, what have I? Have I spiritual experience, can I remember Rephidim? This is Joshua.

F.I. That would all take place on the wilderness side of Jordan.

J.T. It is the building up of the spiritual being, so that I can cross Jordan. It is not a day, but forty years' history.

Ques. "The officers went through the camp". What do they represent?

J.T. These are all points of the greatest importance. These officers are keen persons, and they have authority. It all shows what intent occupation there was with the thing on hand. There was one thing before them, to get over Jordan, and they say, "Ye have not passed this way heretofore". It would be the Spirit's work in us, I think. We help each other

in an authoritative way, admonishing one another. It is the "one thing" as in Philippians 3.

A.H.B. It is the thought of going after it.

J.T. It is a living thing. The ark was not alive, but the priests the Levites bring in what is living. It is a living movement when you see that. You are not following another, but you go after it when you see it. It was quite a good distance ahead, two thousand cubits. It needed quite good eyesight.

E.R. The Lord said in John 13 "What I do thou dost not know now, but thou shalt know hereafter".

J.T. It can only be undertaken as Christ has died and risen, and gone into heaven.

J.E. Going back a little, I should like to ask what part the spies take in this movement.

J.T. It is an additional thing which ought not to be needed, but it is God's provision at this juncture. He provides all that we need. The spies are the provision of God, because they bring out the work of God. Rahab sends them out "another way". It was the way of faith.

J.E. We may hear about going into the land, and yet not take the journey.

J.T. Yes, you may stay in Shittim, and talk about going over Jordan as we are tonight, but you must come to Jordan before you can pass over.

F.I. The officers were persons who had desire to go over. Ministry is no use to persons who have no desire.

J.T. It is when they are by Jordan that the officers speak, so that there is nothing left undone.

L.H.M. I was wondering whether the epistle to the Colossians would not become the test to us as to whether there was a spiritual condition to go over. We should challenge ourselves as to where we stand.

J.T. Colossians is the epistle which answers to this. It has been called the epistle for entering the land.

E.B. "If therefore ye have been raised with the Christ, seek the things which are above" (Colossians 3:1).

J.T. Chapter 2 is that you are circumcised in putting off the body of the flesh (verse 11), that is the mind, but the Spirit supports you in it. Then it goes on to say "buried with him in baptism, in which ye have been also raised with him through faith of the working of God who raised him from among the dead". Faith exists in the soul. Quickening is a normal thing, it represents saints now ready to go over.

E.R. Before they went after the ark, they had to remove from their place. Is there any significance in that?

J.T. It was as much as to say, the ark is before you. They had become accustomed to Joshua and the moving of the ark, so they had been brought up to this. Now Christ comes before us spiritually leading us. It is the education earlier that makes us equal to it.

F.I. That is the education between the entering into the power of God as seen in the Red Sea and the power now seen in relation to the ark.

J.T. Rahab spoke of what God had done at the Red Sea, but she said nothing about the work of Joshua. She represents the work of God by itself, but our acquaintance with Joshua and the ark is a further period of the work of God.

E.R. In a sense it is our history. The occurrences which befell them in the wilderness all make one history.

J.T. That is so. How much have I learnt of it all the way? If I have not learnt I am at a disadvantage. What is so needed for young christians is to build up spiritual history. Public history is apparent, but spiritual history is secret. Now Christ has become known to you in a secret way. You pray to your Father who is in secret, that is the point,

when no one is looking at you. Now you are going to overcome things which no one knows but yourself. If we only had access to heaven, we should see all those things we regret so often afterwards.

-- .H. We ought to be more acquainted with heaven than we are, for the simple fact that Christ is there.

J.T. We know the public history of the saints, but it is my secret history that counts. God knows all about it. It is all kept up there. There is no hiding at all in heaven.

E.R. Do you think we ought to place it before all young souls, and particularly our own hearts, that heaven is our place?

J.T. That is the point of the greatest importance to all young christians, to begin to make secret history, and not be content with what the brethren know about us.

A.H. Then you would be ready for regulation.

J.T. If you begin to move along with Moses and Aaron, you are ready for the officers to regulate you. The officers may be any brother or sister who may be used to regulate you.

E.W. After such spiritual experience you would trust the flesh less.

J.T. That is right. You are learning all the time to distrust the flesh. It is a constant thing. You may think it is done once for all but it is not. A brother may help you by what he is saying, but what is it doing? No one knows it but yourself.

E.S.H. By habitually getting into the presence of God, you will learn what the flesh is.

J.T. "To know him, and the power of his resurrection" (Philippians 3:10), learning the power of God, learning yourself and overcoming the flesh. "Who shall deliver me out of this body of death?" (Romans 7:24). That is Joshua.

I believe that most of us live in public history, but secret history is what tells. Now I know Christ in a

spiritual way, as helping me, giving me victory after victory over the flesh.

F.I. That brings you to Joshua in relation to the ark.

J.T. The ark had had a great place in the camp. As the people moved in that way, it took the brunt of things. And as you learn Christ in that way, you learn Joshua.

Rem. "That ye may prove what is the good and acceptable and perfect will of God" (Romans 12:2).

J.T. Romans deals with the wilderness side, Colossians deals with crossing Jordan, that is, you face the fact that you have got to die, to die now, to be in association with Christ. So that you go over on dry ground.

Ques. Would Isaiah 53:2 come into this? "He shall grow up before him as a tender sapling, and as a root out of dry ground". He was ready to accept death, whether in life or in death.

J.T. That is the idea.

F.I. I understood you said that Romans was connected with the public side.

J.T. Romans deals with our death, but in Colossians you are raised, you are out of death.

E.B. The Lord said, "The flesh profits nothing" (John 6:63). The more we ponder that blessed Man, would we not see the worthlessness of the flesh, and would not the Lord become more and more to us?

J.T. Yes, John 6 would come in here. It is association. The ark goes on, and it never moves from its position until all are over. It is a question of faith in the power, so that the waters are driven aside. They are cut off, "the waters of the Jordan, the waters flowing down from above, shall be cut off, and shall stand up in a heap". There is no death there. It is faith, by the working of God. There is no death in the assembly.

E.R. In passing over they all witnessed the fact.

J.T. They have the evidence that the power is there. The waters are cut off.

E.R. We have to learn it practically for ourselves.

J.T. Really death does not exist in the assembly. It is abolished. It is the power that works in you, the same power that is in Christ.

J.E. Perhaps you would say a little about "the ark of the covenant".

J.T. It is Christ as the power and glory of God. It was a small vessel, two and a half by one and a half cubits. It was not large. It was greater than what was visible. The "half" would imply there is more than what could be seen. What Christ is is always more than can be seen. The queen of Sheba had heard of Solomon's glory, but when she came to see him, she could say, "The half ... was not told me" (1 Kings 10:7), and the Lord says to the woman in John 4, "If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that says to thee, Give me to drink, thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water".

F.I. The ark represents the power and glory of God. We cannot compass that. It is greater than we can take in.

J.T. Gethsemane is where you see this coming out. The dimensions are what He was. On the cross He could cry with a loud voice and dismiss His spirit. No natural man could do that. When they came to Jesus, they saw He was dead already. The Lord had breath enough to cry with a loud voice. The centurion says, "Truly this man was Son of God" (Matthew 27:54).

E.R. He was taken by surprise.

J.T. Yes.

Ques. Where do "the priests the Levites" come in?

J.T. It is a great thing to see what this means. The priests the Levites are the living part of it. It is all one idea. The Lord in Gethsemane shows the moral power, but on the cross there was the loud

voice. He had said, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up" (John 2:19). He has done that Himself. He has annulled death.

E.S.H. There was a distance of two thousand cubits.

J.T. It makes you reverential as you look ahead. It is three thousand feet ahead of you, but in passing over, Christ becomes more and more. It is not only the death of Christ, but the resurrection of Christ. The Jordan is overflowing its banks today, as much as ever, the graveyards are as full as ever, but this is all to do with faith, this passing over.

F.I. How do you understand that, seeing death is out of view?

J.T. It is our death and resurrection with Him, in Colossians; not simply that I am baptised. Romans is in view of the future, but Colossians is the present, and then you get the quickening.

E.R. There could be no association apart from resurrection.

J.T. So that on the first day of the week, when they see Christ risen, death is abolished.

A.H.B. I should like to ask about the last verse.

J.T. The death scene is changed. It is not actual, it is a question of faith. The Spirit makes it good to me by faith. It makes what I believe real, because it is the power, as I am rooted in Christ (Colossians 2:7). It is the Spirit in us that enables us to grasp this. All Israel went over on dry ground. That is the position we are in. In the next chapter you get the twelve stones carried up; that is the beginning of our history now. Our spiritual history starts there. The saints do not come out of the wilderness, they come out of Jordan. The two thousand cubits is to remind you of the greatness of Christ. The twelve stones which were taken out of the bed of Jordan and carried over to the place where they first lodged point to their beginning there (chapter 4:3). The

twelve stones which Joshua set up in the place where the priests had stood in the midst of Jordan were to show they had been there (chapter 4:9).

E.R. "Strengthened with power by his Spirit in the inner man" (Ephesians 3:16).

J.T. Ephesians takes up Colossians, and amplifies all that; "Raised us up together, and has made us sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus" (chapter 2:6).

E.W. The twelve stones taken out of Jordan are set up as a monument, a perpetual reminder.

J.T. In the fourth chapter, you get "Take you twelve men out of the people, one man out of every tribe, and command them, saying, Take up hence out of the midst of the Jordan, from the place where the priests' feet stood firm, twelve stones, and carry them over with you, and lay them down in the lodging-place where ye shall lodge this night". That is a figure which applies to ourselves, the twelve being the total, set up in power, as risen with Christ. "The power which works in us" was there. "What ailed thee ... thou Jordan, that thou turnedst back?" (Psalm 114:5). It is a question of power.

E.S.H. This works out practically in us by the Spirit in the way in which we abstract ourselves, and take up the interests of Christ.

J.T. Have we got into our souls the idea that what God has effected is in Christ, that He is in heaven now, a risen Man? That is a fact, and faith holds to it; we are risen "through faith of the working of God" (Colossians 2:12). That is the thing to get hold of in our souls, "according to the power which works in us". So long as we do not get the touch of power, we may talk about it as we are tonight, but it cannot be effectual. "Your life is hid with the Christ in God".

BRIEF JOTTINGS OF READINGS EXODUS 16 - 24

EXODUS 16:1 - 36

The quails in chapter 16 are connected with the sacrificial and public side of the death of Christ in an initial and elementary character. These, unlike the manna, are not continued, but the manna presents what Christ was here as coming in from heaven. The measure, according to verse 18, is proportionate to the capacity of the gatherer. We cannot appropriate more of Christ than we have capacity for. This is all leading to the spiritual thought of the Sabbath, illustrating the state of mind and soul of one who is restful before God, the land lying, so to speak, in a fallow state, ready to be acted upon by the sun and rain. These Sabbath conditions would stand connected with the contemplation of the Lord in the gospels, while the exercises in the epistles would pertain more to the side of spiritual diligence in divine things, the other active days of the week illustrating rather the diligence connected with the working out of the truth in the epistles.

The taste of manna was like honey, an earnest of the love that would bless them in the land flowing with milk and honey.

Aaron's place in this chapter as seen in verse 10 was dwelt on, in relation to the priestly side in ministry, Moses understanding what is necessary at the moment and that authority, as such, will not alone do. So that in verse 9 he tells Aaron to speak. How urgent, in the ministerial service, to discern the character of ministry to meet the need of the moment. The Lord does not tell Moses to speak to Aaron. Moses moves in spiritual intuition, as every spiritual minister should do. How blest is the service

which would win the brethren for the ministry of the glory!

The princes of the assembly appear here for the first time. So in Romans 16 Paul salutes the princes before the assembly is formally functioning, as seen in the later chapters in this book and in 1 Corinthians, Paul discerning in those princes the nucleus of the assembly at Rome.

EXODUS 17:1 - 16

In chapter 17 we have a good deal on the place Joshua is to have. He is introduced informally, not in the way of light and authority but in relation to the thought of Christ in us. And so he is brought in at various crises, illustrating the work of God in the saints in a hidden way, which would assert itself in a crisis; that work develops secretly in soul history in the wilderness testings and finally Christ has the supreme place in the saints. He is magnified before the people, and they are thus in a state to enter the land.

In regard to the position of Moses, Aaron and Hur in verse 10, it is suggested that one could liken this to the organism of a man's body, functioning co-relatively. It is not what is in heaven. It represents elements here in the Spirit for support in the conflict: the Lord's authority in Moses, intercession in Aaron and purity in Hur (who is also brought in without formal introduction as illustrating the work of God in its spontaneity in the soul).

The use of the stone in verse 12 suggests wisdom laying hold of a provision to hand; maybe some principle which is divine and affords support in the battle. All this pertains to our mixed condition, Moses' hands being at times heavy. But the combination of spiritual elements acting together like the functioning of a human body results in personal

victory in the soul, all this being found in Romans 6 and onwards.

'Jehovah my banner' (verse 15) is military. Amalek putting his hand on the throne would be disputing divine authority in the believer's heart by working on the flesh in him.

EXODUS 18:1 - 27

In chapter 18 we have a dispensational setting, but in addition, that which also has a moral bearing. Jethro's unexpected testimony rendered to Moses and calculated to strengthen his leadership on moral lines with Israel shows that all that he had been through as a sojourner in a foreign land had resulted in fruit for God, which was now to be available in relation to the great trust God had confided to him. So that earlier history with a servant of the Lord, of however little account it may appear at the time, plays its part in accrediting him later in the mission God has entrusted to him. Paul's own time in Arabia, alluded to in Galatians, supports this, as indeed too the history of many of the Old Testament servants of Jehovah.

Then this great thought of rule diffused among Israel is all preparatory to the working out of the truth of the assembly in the wilderness, spiritual respect for authority being brought down to chiefs of tens, so that all might be handled in detail according to divine rule, and none might suffer through there being so many matters calling for discernment, rule, and judgment.

EXODUS 19:1 - 25

In chapter 19 Moses has a unique place in the sovereign ordering of God, calculated to give him

officially the position of mediator, as does the moral history of the previous chapter give him confidence among the people as to his leadership. His going to and fro from God to the people, and from the people to God, is to be noted; so verses 3, 7, 10, 20, 21 and 25, all establish in the eyes of Israel the competency of the mediator, and in that way he is typical of the Lord. The departure too, in the third month from Rephidim suggests what a landmark in spiritual history is the battle with Amalek at Rephidim (chapter 17:8), but without it there is no advance into the spiritual realm suggested here. The people are claimed in verse 6 as "a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation". Aaron however, alone, is to come up in verse 24 with Moses.

EXODUS 20:1 - 26

The intervening chapters, 20 to 23, are to assure conditions in the development of what is priestly for the priestly company to go up in chapter 24:1. How calculated is this scene on the mountain to impress the soul with the thought that "our God is a consuming fire". Yet how these very conditions, if excluding to the flesh, are full of encouragement to us in the way of approach, as seen in the liberty of movement with our Moses and our Aaron, the Apostle and High Priest.

Then in chapter 20 there are the ten words, the first four treating of our relations with God and the last six with one another. The altar of earth in verse 24 stands connected with every christian, as of the faith of Jesus, but verse 25 does not speak of the altar of stone as imperative, while the altar of earth is so in verse 24. The altar of stone represents Christ as the Son of God apprehended in the soul in relation to the counsels of God. The sharp tool to be excluded in verse 25 suggests the exclusion of the

human, cultured mind in that holy realm, as seen in the warnings in the Colossian epistle.

EXODUS 21:1 - 36

In chapter 21 we have the Hebrew servant, the whole realm of divine operations resounding with that memorable utterance, "I love my master, my wife, and my children". He says it "distinctly". The early chapters of the Acts are suggested in verses 7 to 11, full provision being made in the assembly for Israel's food, clothing and her conjugal rights. So that if she has been superseded for the moment in the affections of Christ in view of the assembly, all that God has pledged Himself to in regard of her is assured.

Then the allusion to Christ's death in verse 13 is touching, Israel being absolved as they were in the beginning of the Acts from wanton murder in regard of Christ. His having been "given up by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God" (Acts 2:23) would link up with the thought of God having delivered the slain one into his hand. Hence the assembly is the place of refuge for repentant Israel, "to which he shall flee". But the slaying of Stephen was wanton and Israel was thus taken away from God's altar, "that he may die".

In the incident of the goring ox, verses 28 and 29, the responsibility of assemblies was emphasised as seen in the owner, the power invested of the Lord there to restrain unbroken elements must be exercised. All the gathering is held responsible for damage done by such an one (end of verse 29).

Then in verse 35 in an issue which arises, there is something of value in connection with the ox that is slain (end of verse 36) -- "the dead shall be his". When death is accepted by any one in any issue arising, there is immediate value.

EXODUS 22:1 - 31

In chapter 22 the ravages of Rome are surely prophetically in mind, for she trafficks in souls, as seen in the thief alluded to in verses 1 to 4. Then she claims arrogantly every field and vineyard. Jude 12 speaks of those who pasture themselves as indicated in verse 5 of Exodus 22. How these chapters show that there is no exigency or situation, however complicated, which may arise among the people of God, which has not its solution in the spirit of the Hebrew servant.

EXODUS 23:1 - 33

In chapter 23, amidst much that is instructive, the place the Angel is to have among them is emphasised; this is typical of the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete, who would take charge of all in view of their journey to the place that God has prepared for them. He is not to be provoked. We are not to grieve the Holy Spirit; we are to listen to Him.

EXODUS 24:1 - 18

In chapter 24 the great end of all that has preceded is to be reached. "He that hath blameless hands" is to "ascend into the mount of Jehovah" (Psalm 24:3,4), and hence all these testings and adjustments among the brethren promote qualification for the ascent. And so in the Lord's supper in Luke's gospel we have what pertains to the beginning of Exodus 21, "I love"; while in the interval reached before the mount of Olives, much is gone into by the Lord with His disciples in that gospel which would typically coincide with chapters 21 to 23 of Exodus. The people are afresh brought in to fealty to Jehovah in verse 3 of this chapter 24. The twelve pillars in verse 4 suggest that now conditions have been reached for the testimony to unite in administration.

The abundance of blood emphasises the realm of divine love and liberty in which we are found in relation to the cup of blessing, and the ascent into the presence of the God of Israel suggests our ascent into privilege.

The chapter closes with the peculiar liberty and glory of the mediator in the presence of God, to become the depositary of the mind of God in relation to the truth of the assembly.

CHRIST IN THE BELIEVER (1)

Romans 8:10; John 1:29 - 37

J.T. "But if Christ be in you, the body is dead on account of sin, but the Spirit life on account of righteousness". I was thinking of that verse, and during these meetings we might look into John's gospel, and might see the illustration of the truth "Christ ... in you". It is proposed at this time that we might consider John the baptist in John's gospel as the first example. These verses would show that Christ was in him sacrificially, he apprehending Christ in a sacrificial way as "the Lamb of God". Then we see in the woman of Samaria in chapter 4 another example of Christ in a believer. She recognises Him as a prophet, and speaks to others of Him as the Christ. "Is not he the Christ?" So that He is in her as the Christ, the One who does things for God. In Peter in chapter 6 we have his confession, Christ is the One who has words of eternal life, "We have believed and known that thou art the holy one of God"; that is Christ is seen in this gospel as the Minister of the sanctuary, the Holy One of God, as Aaron was to Jehovah. Then in chapter 9 another example is the man spoken of as the blind man, whose eyes were opened. He sees in Him "the Son of God", and finally in Mary of Bethany is seen another example, and I believe the Lord will open up all these instances for our profit. This morning the thought is of John the baptist in this gospel.

H.E.F. Your thought is that what would work out from these different illustrations would be progressive.

J.T. It is usually so that any line of thought in Scripture, in the gospels or epistles, is progressive, or constructive, and I think we shall find this will be so here. Obviously the first great thought is the

sacrificial thought. Christ in us sacrificially, that is the foundation.

S.W.R. By progressive do you mean the order in which we understand these things?

J.T. Quite so, and the order in which they are set in our souls in a constructive way. This gospel has the constructive thought in a collective sense, and what we are speaking of helps on this line. In chapter 12 we have, "While ye have the light, believe in the light, that ye may become sons of light". That is the result in mind, sons of light, so that the point would be the same on this line of thought. Christ is to be developed in us fully; He is to be in the believer.

J.R. Would you say a little as to Christ sacrificially occupying our attention? It would bring before us Christ in His love towards us.

J.T. Well, that is what is in mind. John the baptist in speaking of Him earlier speaks of Him as the One who is preferred before him. He lays the basis in his earlier remarks for this great thought. Being the Lamb of God He was greater than John the baptist; John the baptist could not atone for his sins himself, but needed Another. That is where the testimony of John begins. He bears witness of Him: "This was he of whom I said, He that comes after me is preferred before me, for he was before me" (chapter 1:15). That is the first testimony he bears in this gospel. It can be seen that this lays the basis for this sacrificial thought in Another, not in himself. Then when the Jews sent from Jerusalem to ask him who he was, they wanted to know him, "And he acknowledged and denied not, and acknowledged, I am not the Christ. And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he says, I am not. Art thou the prophet? And he answered, No. They said therefore to him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to those who sent us. What sayest

thou of thyself? He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the path of the Lord, as said Esaias the prophet. And they were sent from among the Pharisees. And they asked him and said to him, Why baptisest thou then, if thou art not the Christ, nor Elias, nor the prophet? John answered them saying, I baptise with water. In the midst of you stands, whom ye do not know, he who comes after me, the thong of whose sandal I am not worthy to unloose" (verses 20 - 27).

So that he lays the basis for the sacrificial thought in his elimination of himself. As we eliminate ourselves, we make way for Christ's vicarious sacrifice. He is the only One qualified for that. Self-elimination is an important matter in arriving at the Christ in any way. I am never to be a rival of Christ in any way.

O.L. Will you say a little more as to the sacrificial thought as applying to us in our own pathway today?

J.T. Well, I think what we are saying about the elimination side ought to be noted. There must be total elimination of self for us to rightly apprehend the sacrificial thought in Christ.

H.S. After this we get two disciples leaving John and following Jesus.

J.T. Just so. It was the Lamb of God they were directed to, to His walking, and others move from John's testimony. His first testimony here does not move anybody; it is more to bring out the principle of elimination in himself. Now the next day, that is verse 35, he is occupied with the Lord as walking. He calls Him "the Lamb of God", saying no more, and then others move towards Him. This second calling of attention to Christ as the Lamb of God is a sacrificial thought, which is effecting more than the doctrine, which is implied in the first reference. Very often in the laying down of doctrine we are not so effective as when we are feeling things, full of the

things ourselves, and enjoying them. The second statement calling attention to Christ sacrificially (verse 36) has more feeling. John is not only eliminated in his own thoughts, but has stopped doing things; he is standing, he has finished as it were. He sees Another has come on the scene, and he has finished at that point.

O.L. What do you mean by 'vicariously', as applying to what we have been saying?

J.T. We lay down our lives for the brethren, but that is not vicarious. It will never secure remission, or anything for God. Only Christ can act in that sense. He laid down His life for us vicariously. We may lay down our lives too, but as expressive of love.

H.F. Is that in line with propitiation?

J.T. That is right. It is Christ's propitiatory sacrifice. That is the position in Romans 3. It is the mercy-seat really; He only can be that.

J.R. "None can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him" (Psalm 49:7).

H.F. John the baptist is superseded by Christ.

J.T. Yes, he eliminates himself. He takes himself out of the way of Christ, and this is a process that must continue with us, because we are so much in the way of Christ.

Rem. So that John the baptist says, "He must increase, but I must decrease" (John 3:30).

J.T. That is the idea. That is what you get in the third chapter. This gospel does not give any of John's failures, the only one you might say, that does not. Matthew and Luke mention them, but John the evangelist does not tell us of them. He selects John the baptist as a model for us. The Spirit of God selects here one who eliminates himself so that Christ might have all the place.

H.S. So he was in the good of Romans 8:10.

J.T. That is what I was thinking. He is an illustration of one in whom Christ is sacrificially apprehended.

Hence he calls Him the Lamb of God. Twice he speaks of Him in that way.

Rem. If we rightly apprehend Christ sacrificially, it puts us out altogether.

J.T. That is, you see that God has dealt with me. After all, my elimination of myself is not enough. God has also to do it. It has to be understood that God has dealt with me for His own glory in order to bring me in on another line.

H.F. Does John the evangelist take account of the work of God in the believer?

J.T. He does; he does that particularly. He tells us we must be born anew. The Spirit of God takes John the baptist as a model for christians. He, John the baptist, comes down from another dispensation, and God, according to John the evangelist, brings in another -- christianity. John the baptist merges into christianity in chapter 3, showing what a man he was. We are not told here that he was the greatest of those born of women, but he is born of God. No one would speak of Jesus in this way unless he was born anew. In fact, as an unborn babe he was affected by the thought of Jesus. So he is a unique sort of person, and we do well to pay attention to him. Here the Spirit of God gives us a picture; the Holy Spirit only can present it in this way. He presents it for faith, not merely facts. The Scriptures are not mere facts: they are designed so as to affect us rightly.

O.M.R. That ought to help us to take up the thought of elimination, to dwell on the burial of Christ. Christ died and was buried.

J.T. Well, that is a good thing to bring up, but it is a little early. It is early to bring it in, but it is an important thing to have in mind; the burial of Christ is a sacrificial thought, and that is one of the most important things to bear in mind. There is no thought whatever of the burial of Christ apart from

the sacrificial work. It is complete elimination from view of the man whom He died to put away. It is the sacrificial thought, to deal entirely with the sinner, putting him out of sight altogether. That is not his own elimination of self, but God's elimination of him. Romans shows how he comes to this. Baptism is the figure of it. Another does it for you, but the believer accepts it as fulfilling righteousness.

R.H.K. John was "sent from God". In the passage read it says he "knew him not". What part of John's history does that refer to?

J.T. It would refer to the time of his showing to Israel. Luke gives us the account of John's birth and early life, and his coming into service. He was in the wilderness (in the deserts really, for it is a plural thought) "until the day of his showing to Israel". He disclaims knowing Christ earlier, although related to Him as of the flesh. He does not speak of Him on that line, he speaks of Him as known spiritually, and that is the only true way to speak of Him. John apprehended Him spiritually. He tells us what happens here. "I have seen and borne witness that this is the Son of God". That title in John's gospel indicates a divine Person.

H.S. Would you say he gets a revelation in connection with that? He speaks of Him as the Son of God.

J.T. He tells us what happened here. What is to be noted first is what we are saying, the sacrificial thought, so it says, "On the morrow he sees Jesus coming to him, and says, Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world". That is what he is engaged with. Whatever he might have said to you at that time, the Spirit of God gives you this picture to bring out the fact that Christ was in him in a sacrificial way. That is what he speaks about, and I think what is said of him earlier shows he is prepared divinely to speak of Christ in that way. He

is able to do that because he has eliminated himself. He does not becloud what he has to speak of; he is out of the way himself. If I stand up to preach I must be sure I am out of the way. It is Christ I am thinking of. The first thing is to bring forward the sacrificial side because that is what is effective.

H.S. That was true of the apostle Paul, "No longer live, I, but Christ lives in me" (Galatians 2:20).

J.T. Quite so. I am crucified with Him. He accepted that. This is a very important matter as to ministry, because we, perhaps all more or less, stand in the way of Christ, we becloud what we are speaking of because we do not eliminate ourselves.

L.A.M.R. John put that out as moved by the Spirit.

J.T. He no doubt was helped in what he was saying by the Spirit. The point before us now, especially those who minister, is to be sure each has eliminated himself. Otherwise he will bring in his own thoughts, or by not even saying anything, he may have himself in mind. That is why I think we get the previous paragraph to bring out how John is tested by this deputation from Jerusalem. How he stands his ground and refuses to allow himself to be brought into the picture. What a striking testimony that is! In it he makes room for this sacrificial testimony.

H.S. On account of being a man like that John no doubt was beheaded.

J.T. Quite so. Satan will see to it that that man will suffer.

L.A.M.R. Referring to the walk of the Lord playing a very striking part in bringing about the effect we have been speaking about in John the baptist, it says in verse 36, "And, looking at Jesus as he walked, he says, Behold the Lamb of God".

J.T. That is the second testimony, but the first is, "He sees Jesus coming to him". Well, you say, what

does that mean? John is eliminated from his own view, but he is appointed by God in ministry: he is baptising, and Jesus is coming to him. That is the sacrificial thought: figuratively He is going into death, and that is what John sees. He is able to name what he sees, like Adam. Adam looked on the creatures and named them, and here the Son of God is coming to John, one who is exercising this ministry of baptism, which is a figure of death.

H.F. John the baptist is a model servant, is he not?

J.T. Well, that is what we are trying to get at. The servant eliminates himself from his own mind and makes full place for Christ in him: "Christ lives in me". He would not know Romans 8, yet that is what it is here, Christ in that man, not himself. It is no longer John the baptist, however great he was, and he is spoken of as "among them that are born of women a greater prophet is no one than John the Baptist" (Luke 7:28). He would not say that at all about himself; Jesus said that of him, but Christ is everything to John.

Rem. While he had not the doctrine, the thing taught marked him.

J.T. That is the thought. We see in him an example of Christ in a person, and not himself. The body is dead, the natural proclivities all dead, not exercised, not asserting themselves at all.

Rem. In Acts 8 we find Philip preached to the eunuch; he preached unto him Jesus, and the place where the eunuch was reading was Isaiah, "He was led as a sheep to slaughter, and as a lamb is dumb in presence of him that shears him, thus he opens not his mouth". Later it says, "When they came up out of the water the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, and the eunuch saw him no longer", so that he might not be occupied with Philip.

O.M.R. Philip was not to be unduly in his mind. He was taken away.

J.T. Quite so. He says, "Behold water; what hinders my being baptised?". That is the idea, he is disappearing and Christ is to be everything. Philip had been speaking to him about Jesus from Isaiah 53, "His life is taken from the earth". So he says, "Behold water; what hinders my being baptised?". Philip went down into the water with him, so that he is removed. That is the principle; henceforth Christ is to be in him.