Selected Ministry - Volume 5

John 1:1 - 14

S.McC. The knowledge of divine Persons and divine things is to be considered. It is essential that the importance of John's gospel should be apprehended by us. Mr. Raven said that it is the backbone of all the gospels,⁺ and Mr. Taylor remarked that it is the backbone of all the Scriptures,⁺⁺ showing what an important place it had in their minds. It is especially important as bearing on what we are about to consider together in connection with the revelation of God -- the knowledge of divine Persons and divine things. In the consideration of our subject together, divine personality will be before us in each of the Persons of the Deity, the Father, the Son, and the Spirit, and particularly before us now we have the divine Personality of the Word, the Son. We need to see the place that the Person of Christ has in these holy writings. It is important that in seeking after light we should not miss the glory of the Persons about whom we seek light. They are presented in John's ministry in a manner which is calculated to touch every feature of spiritual affection begotten in us through the operations of God. The knowledge that we are referring to -- spiritual knowledge -- seems to run right

⁺ F.E.R., N.S., Volume 16, page 103

⁺⁺ J.T., N.S., Volume 31, page 419

through all John's ministry, in the gospel, and the epistles, and the Revelation. If we were to consult a concordance, it would be surprising the number of times that the word 'know' and 'knowing' comes into John's ministry. It is especially important in view of all that is abroad in the public profession, that we should come into the knowledge that John has in mind, and, as quickened in our affections, be affected by that knowledge, and especially in view of the enriching of the service of God.

Now, in the first portion we have read the matter of knowledge is presented negatively, which is very interesting. John opens his gospel with negative references to knowledge, whereas when we come to chapter 17 it is replete with references to positive features of knowledge as to the men that God has given Christ, out of the world. He says in John 1:10, "He [that is Christ] was in the world, and the world had its being through him, and the world knew him not". Then in verse 26, "John answered them saying, I baptise with water. In the midst of you stands, whom ye do not know, he who comes after me, the thong of whose sandal I am not worthy to unloose". Then John says, as to the Lamb of God, "He it is of whom I said, A man comes after me who takes a place before me, because he was before me; and I knew him not; but that he might be manifested to Israel, therefore have I come baptising with water. And John bore witness, saying, I beheld the Spirit descending as a dove from heaven, and it abode upon him. And I knew him not; but he who sent me to baptise with water, he said to me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending and abiding on him, he it is who baptises with the Holy Spirit. And I have seen and

borne witness that this is the Son of God" (verses 30 - 34). This is what we should keep before us in this first reading, the negative side, throwing into relief what is in mind on the positive side in our enquiry.

J.A.P. When he says, "I knew him not", is he referring to His eternal personality?

S.McC. There is no doubt he is not alluding to Him on natural lines, for John stood related to the Lord on the natural side. It seems to refer to something very definite on John's part, when he says, "a man comes after me who takes a place before me, because he was before me; and I knew him not".

The moral side is in mind in the first negative suggestion, the condition of the world morally, the created sphere into which the Lord came, "the world had its being through him, and the world knew him not". It is the moral side in regard to knowledge. Then it is the religious side in the second reference, those that came out of Jerusalem -- the priests and Levites who should have known, but John says, "whom ye do not know", which suggests the religious darkness marking that setting. But when we come to the baptist, it is more an allusion to the exclusion of the natural side in the matter of this knowledge.

M.G.W. Is the acquirement of positive knowledge reached by way of our seeing, which is the result of the work of the Spirit in us in the way of enlightenment? I was thinking of verse 34. John says there, "I have seen".

S.McC. Yes, new birth in its radical character in us brings about the ability to see things which we did not see before. Seeing is brought much before us in John's ministry, and it is important that our eyes should be open

spiritually to see what comes within our range in the movements of divine Persons in this gospel.

A.P.B. Is one of the first steps in acquiring knowledge the realisation that we are without it?

S.McC. Yes, the negative side would throw that into relief -- the great need there is for the true knowledge of God, which John's gospel would bring on to our view, beginning with this Person. It is important that we should get an impression as to the divine Personality that is before us here in the Son -- the Word as He is referred to. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God". Our affections need to be quickened in relation to the Person of Christ. John's gospel makes a lot of the Person of Christ.

J.S.E. Had you something further in your mind in alluding to these three categories: the world, and the religious circle, and what is natural?

S.McC. I think John is stressing the negative side as he opens his ministry, to bring into relief what was in the assembly; the realm to which we belong. The Lord has great pleasure in referring in chapter 17 to what is known in that realm. He says, "They have known that all things that thou hast given me are of thee" (verse 7); "they … have known truly that I came out from thee" (verse 8); and "these have known that thou hast sent me. And I have made known to them thy name" (verses 25, 26).

J.S.E. Is it of any interest that Peter's wife is not referred to in this gospel?

S.McC. Say what is in your mind in that regard.

J.S.E. I was thinking of your allusion to John ruling out the natural element, and I was wondering if the Spirit

keeps us, in the narrative, entirely in relation to what is spiritual. I suppose most of us have, in our minds, ruled out the element of the world, and of the religious circle, but I wonder whether we sufficiently face this natural element. I wondered if John is a model to us in that way?

S.McC. I think he is. He would help us to see the importance of coming under the hands of divine Persons, in view of the knowledge that we are speaking about. It is quite evident that we need divine help when it comes to the matter of the knowledge of divine Persons and divine things.

A.J.G. In his first epistle he says, "we know that we are of God, and the whole world lies in the wicked one" (1 John 5:19). Does that fit in with what we have before us here?

S.McC. Very good. That is an interesting passage. One was thinking of it in relation to this subject, because he immediately continues, as you will recall in the following verse, "And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us an understanding that we should know him that is true; and we are in him that is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life". It bears on what we have here. John would help us to see what we stand related to, in the environment that we are in -- we know that we are of God.

E.J.H. Would you say that these negatives of John the baptist's are all the more remarkable on account of what we might speak of as the excellency of John the baptist on the natural line?

S.McC. Yes, because John was a remarkable personality himself -- a distinguished personality, marked

out by an intervention from heaven. One who was filled with the Holy Spirit. He was a remarkable man in that way, and yet he says in such a precise, definite way, "I knew him not", showing that there is no pretension on John's part to advance any premium that he might have put on his link with Christ along natural lines.

A.W.G.T. I wondered if the fact that the Spirit of God uses two words for 'knowledge' or 'know' would help in the enquiry. One is conscious knowledge, and the other is objective knowledge?

S.McC. Yes, it does help. There is what we know objectively, and there is what we know consciously. It is remarkable that in verse 9 he says, "the true light was that which, coming into the world, lightens every man". It is not that every man has the knowledge. It is not the idea of enlightenment, as Mr. Darby points out (see note f); it is light to every man, sheds its light upon every man; that is, the bearing of it is towards all. But then we know that we need the Spirit in regard of knowledge that we are speaking of -- christian knowledge -- the knowledge of divine Persons and divine things.

J.R.U.B. Is the basis of all this, "born of God"?

S.McC. Well, we should never know divine things unless we are the subjects of divine operations. "Born of God" brings on to our view a class of persons here, that are distinctly marked out as having a right -- a right to take a certain place. In the light of John's epistle it would be a class of persons who know God, because they are begotten of God.

A.H.G. Is it in your mind that in approaching the knowledge of divine Persons the first essential is the appreciation of Christ, and who He is?

S.McC. That is what is particularly in one's mind, and that we should not miss the wonderful Personality that is before us in "the Word;" in this opening section of John's gospel. The very use of the appellation 'Word', reminds us that the thought of the revelation of God is a prime matter in John's mind. It is important that we should allow the Spirit of God to have His way in fastening our attention on the glory of this divine Person, of whom John the evangelist, in the Spirit's power, writes.

F.W.K. So would the negative in verse 18, "No one has seen God at any time", be important in that connection?

S.McC. Well, it would, because there is what we cannot know -- what we cannot apprehend. Even in regard to what we are saying as to our subject of the knowledge of divine Persons; we are not seeking in any way to intimate that we can know all that there is to be known of divine Persons, because we cannot, and we do not. There is what we do not know, and what we do not see, and John would remind us of that to begin with -- that we have limitations.

A.M.P. When it says, "the natural man ... cannot know them because they are spiritually discerned" (1 Corinthians 2:14), does it refer to what can be known?

S.McC. Yes, the Spirit of God is alluded to as the great instrumentality by whom God is revealing these things to us. He reveals them to us by His Spirit. "The Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God" (verse 10).

J.H. Have you in mind that the features you have named, what is moral and religious and natural, are calculated to militate against our apprehension of the presentation of the Person?

S.McC. Yes, we have to have a judgment in our souls as to this negative side, if we are to come in for the knowledge par excellence which John has in mind -- the knowledge of divine Persons and divine things.

J.S.E. Would it be in keeping to ask if there is in the three outstanding titles in these verses an off-set to the three spheres that you refer to?

S.McC. You mean "the Word", and "the Christ;" and what other one are you referring to?

J.S.E. I was thinking of the Word; and the glory of an only-begotten with a father; and then finally the Son of God.

S.McC. Yes, it is important that we should see the way in which Christ is presented in this section, first as "the Word". Then as the Son, the only-begotten Son, and the glory of an only-begotten with a father -- the truth of Christ's sonship, which the religious world does not understand at all. Then what we have coming in later in regard to "the Christ", and "the Lamb of God", and the "Son of God", and He "who baptises with the Holy Spirit". All that is important in our apprehension of Christ, over against these environments that are suggested in the negative statements that we have referred to.

J.L.F. Does it help to see that there are three more negatives that are referred to in verse 13 as to the way that the believer is born?

S.McC. Yes, it does. "Not of blood, nor of flesh's will, nor of man's will, but of God". We are reminded thus of the impotence connected with that range of things, so that in coming into the knowledge of God as revealed in this gospel, it is important that we should see how much depends on divine help.

A.W.G.T. I wondered whether that was not really the force of your calling attention to the negatives, that as we accept the negative side, it throws our thoughts and activities in the direction where what is positive can be secured. Is that what is in your mind?

S.McC. That is right, and the negative side can only rightly be understood, and fully apprehended, as the glory of the Person of Christ is apprehended. That is what helps us to see the negativity of what is in these different realms, or environments.

W.S.S. Does verse 14 bring before us what we may enter into?

S.McC. Well, it is an allusion to Christ's sonship. John's gospel does not treat of sonship in the saints, he would fasten our gaze spiritually on the uniqueness of Christ's sonship. But then in relation to what you say, we can see that that is the mind of God for us, because the mind of God for us as to sonship is set out in Christ in sonship in manhood.

W.S.S. Yes. I was thinking of the contemplation of the glory and the fulness that was there.

S.McC. Yes, how important that word 'contemplation' is in that regard. We need to allow our minds and our affections to be given over to this contemplative attitude.

J.A.P. Would you say something about verse 18 in regard to the relation between sonship and the declaration, "No one has seen God at any time; the only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him". His sonship there would of course be of a special character?

S.McC. Yes, only a divine Person could be referred to in this way, "the only-begotten Son". It is important to see that sonship not only hinges, as we have been taught, on Christ's humanity, but also on His eternal personality. It is an important thing to see that, because it is His eternal personality that gives a unique touch to His sonship. Only a Person who is divine could be referred to as He is in this section.

J.S.E. Do we come to the term "the only-begotten Son" by way of "the Word was God". And "the Word became flesh"? Is that right?

S.McC. Well, you mean the allusion in verse 1 to what He was in the pre-incarnate condition of Deity?

J.S.E. Yes, as you said, His essential Personality.

S.McC. Yes, so that the mediatorial system is involved in what we have in verses 14 and 18 -- the position the Lord has come into; taking a place, as He has, in incarnation, "the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us", and then being "in the bosom of the Father". The mediatorial economy is thus suggested to us in all its attractiveness to begin with; it comes before us officially in its operations later on.

J.S.E. I wondered if that is why we have no allusion to the Lord's nativity in this gospel, because there is a certain

way in which we can be affected naturally by that, is there not?

S.McC. That is so. So it is interesting to see the whole bearing of John's gospel as standing outside of dispensation. It is not what can be limited to dispensation, although what enters into it particularly characterises and affects our dispensation, but it cannot be limited to it, because of the Persons that are referred to in the revelation of God in it.

C.H. Would not what verse 1 gives us indicate what has to be borne in mind in this enquiry, that the One who was the Word -- known here as the Word -- the full expression of the mind of God -- was nevertheless God Himself?

S.McC. It is important that we should see this, and verse 1 is very much on one's heart in regard to what we are considering -- the way the appellation "the Word" begins this gospel, "In the beginning was the Word". It is not that He was the Word then, but John the evangelist, in referring to His position in Deity, uses the appellation "the Word". Not that He was the Word then, but that He was known in testimony here among the saints in that way. It seems to suggest at the outset of John's gospel the way the intelligence and affections of the saints were affected by what came within their range in this Person.

C.H. And thinking of the three Persons, we can only identify Them by the names They have taken?

S.McC. Yes, so that John's gospel presents to us God in the majesty of His Being, revealed in Christ; a glorious Being as He is, the supreme Object of worship. But He has come within our range in Christ, and is known in Christ,

known in this Person that is referred to as "the Word", particularly alluding to His ability -- His inherent ability to make God known.

A.J.G. So that Luke's gospel speaks of "those who from the beginning were eye-witnesses of and attendants on the Word" (Luke 1:2). That throws light, does it not, on the use of that expression?

S.McC. It does, showing how much they had been affected by what came out in the Person of Christ as to the knowledge of God, because "the Word" is particularly expressive in regard to the subject that is before us.

P.J.B. So would you say he is emphasising rather the truth of His Personality?

S.McC. Yes, it is a Person that is before us, His eternal existence is in mind, "In the beginning was the Word", that is before anything began to be He was, He existed. It is the greatness of the Person that is in our minds, and it says, "the Word was with God". Sometimes one wonders whether the significance of that lays hold of our minds and affections as it should. We must never forget the distinct Personality who was always there. His Personality is not lost sight of, we might say, reverently speaking, in conditions of abstract Deity. "The Word was with God" is a reference to His distinct eternal Personality.

W.O.S. Is that what is in mind in John 17:5, "Now glorify me, thou Father, along with thyself, with the glory which I had along with thee before the world was"?

S.McC. Just so. We cannot say what the relationships were then, or describe what was there, but we do know in the light of John 1:1 and John 17:5 His distinct Personality. There is One God, but three divine Persons,

now known to us in the economy, distinguished for us in Their operations, in all the glory of the economy, in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, the way in which God is revealed and known.

W.S.S. In that connection would you say a word about "his fulness" in verse 16? Does that fit into what you have just been speaking of?

S.McC. Well, that is alluding to manhood.

W.S.S. Quite so. I was thinking of what has come into revelation.

S.McC. Yes, but that would not be the fulness of Deity. We are speaking of how God has come into revelation, how the Deity has come near to us in Christ, in One who has the ability to make God known, to reveal God, as conveyed in the expression "the Word". When we come to verse 16, the allusion in that section is to the glory of His manhood, and to what is coming out in His position in sonship in manhood.

W.S.S. I was seeking really to bring out the difference. Would the fulness be connected with what we speak of as the economy, as distinct from what you have been saying in regard to His deity?

S.McC. Yes, I think that would be right.

W.S.S. I was thinking, while we have been speaking, of the beauty of the two settings. There is what has come into revelation, which we contemplate, and which we take on; and there is something that is beyond that, unreachable by us, but to be known in a certain sense as the distinct glory of the Person of whom we have been speaking.

S.McC. Yes, exactly. So that we are to keep in mind in that way the glory of the two settings -- what John refers

to in a past eternity, and what he refers to as before the disciples, and before our eyes in testimony, in the Lord's position in sonship in manhood.

W.S.S. I wondered if it would help just to have the two thoughts set before us in that way.

S.McC. It does, because in the first part of verse 1, John is alluding to a realm into which we cannot enter, into which the creature mind cannot penetrate; it is beyond our comprehension. Yet the Person who was there, eternally there, and His Personality standing out distinctly, and His deity too -- it says "the Word was God" -- is the Person that is before us in the incarnation. So that in this wondrous position of manhood God is so near us, because this Person is God.

E.J.H. And would the array of titles given to the Lord in this chapter move us in the spirit of worship in regard to that which has come within our range?

S.McC. It would. The presentation of a divine Person is calculated to elicit some feature of homage from our hearts. How wonderful it is that God should have come within our range in this way, in a Person who is referred to as "the Word", and a Person who is referred to as the "only-begotten Son". These two features of His glory are intended to help us in regard to our knowledge of God.

A.B. Would these two titles, "the Word" and "the only-begotten Son", have in mind the thought of declaration? Only one who was "the Word" could really declare God, and would the declaration involve the shining out of His love?

S.McC. Yes, the declaration does, and God is made known, declared as the word is, "No one has seen God at

any time; the only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him". The allusion would be back to "No one has seen God at any time", but the declaration proceeds from this setting, "the only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father". We are reminded of the way that God, and the knowledge of God, comes within our range. It is not a question of acts of power; it is not a question merely of attributes, great as they are; but it is God, known in this way, according to what He is in His nature. For God is love, the relationships intensifying the thought of love -- what God is in His nature.

A.J.G. Is it significant that although we do not get it in this gospel, we do learn from other gospels that immediately before the Lord entered on His public testimony, He was saluted from heaven as God's beloved Son?

S.McC. Very significant, and something that in the synoptic gospels is intended to arrest us right at the outset in regard to the service of Christ as He entered upon His public ministry.

F.W.P. How is it that John says to Him, "Art thou the coming one? or are we to wait for another?" (Matthew 11:3). The Lord in replying to that seems to tell him that he ought to have known?

S.McC. Well, John the baptist in the synoptic gospels reminds us of ourselves -- our infirmity and weakness in regard to knowledge. We all know how we begin to wonder just what the truth is, and where the truth is. There might be a good deal of that among the saints, you know, at times, when difficulties arise, as to where the truth really is, and what is the truth. That is just where John was

in the synoptic gospels, and the Lord graciously answers him. He says, in effect, 'Look at what is being done'. He does not tell him exactly what He was or who He was. He sends a message back as to what was happening -- the works of power, and the glory of them, that were taking place, and John was confirmed.

J.S.E. Do the two allusions to backbone meet that matter?

S.McC. Well, John's ministry being the backbone of all the gospels would help us as to the person of Christ.

J.S.E. I notice that John is never referred to in this gospel as John the baptist.

S.McC. Well, that is interesting; nor is there any record of any distinct failure on John's part. We say John the baptist to distinguish him in John's gospel from the evangelist.

J.S.E. So it is right, from the standpoint of this narrative, to view him apart from the place he had in an earlier dispensation, and to take account of him in relation to these high and glorious matters that are coming before us. He is singled out in this chapter as the only man who ever saw the Spirit, and that cannot be dispensational can it?

S.McC. No, it is not. He is unique in that way. John the baptist is unique in many ways, and I think it all bears on the excellence of the spiritual knowledge that John the evangelist has in mind that belongs to those that are under the divine hand.

E.J.H. A man sent from God -- under the divine hand.

S.McC. He was, showing the environment he came from, under the divine hand.

F.V.W. Is there any difference between this thought of declaration, and what is said in Hebrews 1:3 "the expression of his substance"? Is that the same idea?

S.McC. No. I think "he hath declared" is a formal service here, with a public bearing upon the whole position. It is not a reference to His public service so much in Hebrews 1, but a reference to what He is, what He was, as Man. He was the expression of His substance -- it was there in Him as Man. But here it is a formal service that is in mind. Now if we could just dwell on the titles "the Word" and "Son" for a moment as bearing on this matter of knowledge that we are considering. The Word particularly refers to His ability to make the whole mind of God known, not only in One who can be the instrument of that service, speaking in a reverential way, but One who in Himself is God, and therefore can adequately express God and the whole mind of God. Then the title "the only-begotten Son" is a peculiarly endearing reference to the place that He has in divine affections, stressing the love side. The Word hardly stresses the love side, it stresses the side of intelligence; but the only-begotten Son stresses the love side. It is God coming near in His nature -- "God is love", and the economy is devised so that we should know and understand love, and see, that in making Himself known, God is drawing near in relationships intelligible to us, that are calculated to affect our souls.

A.J.G. In John's epistle it says, "he that abides in love abides in God" (1 John 4:16). Is that the great end that God has in mind?

S.McC. That is the great end in mind, that we are to abide in God, and John would help us to see the

importance of the love side, the important place that love has. We were seeing in the reading in the house this morning the place that faith and love have. John stresses both: the great necessity of faith, and the great necessity of understanding love.

H.F.R. It says in verse 14 that "The Word became flesh, and dwelt among us". Is that so that we might take account of love? I was wondering whether the word "became" would indicate His sovereign action, that He became flesh and dwelt among us, that is in nearness to us, tabernacled among us?

S.McC. Exactly, so that John gives us the real truth of the incarnation. "The Word became flesh". That is, it was His own divine act. Luke stresses the Holy Spirit's part in the matter, but John stresses that it was His own act. And so God has come near to us -- it is God -- the Deity is drawing near to us -- in this way, to be known in these intelligible relationships which are not only to affect our minds, but to affect our hearts.

E.J.H. Does that gloriously supersede the law mentioned in the previous verse?

S.McC. Yes, of course it does, because in the law, as Mr. Darby says, God did not come out to man, and man could not go in to God. ⁺ But in Christ God has come out and man goes in, so it is a direct contrast.

E.J.H. And grace is mentioned first.

S.McC. Well, it is.

⁺ J.N.D., Notes and Jottings, page 188

J.A.P. When you speak of relationships, do you refer to our relationships with the Father, and the Son, and the Spirit?

S.McC. I am speaking of their relationships with one another. How would we have known love had not the Father sent the Son, and had the Son not died? And then the Spirit comes into that too, in regard to what we are saying.

J.R.U.B. Is that why Mr. Darby hyphenates "only-begotten" in the New Translation?

S.McC. Well, it is a term intensifying the thought of endearment or affection. In what we are speaking of, and enquiring in relation to, in the matter of spiritual knowledge of divine Persons -- as to God, we have to be helped as to what comes out in Christ's sonship and manhood -- the excellence of what is there. It is there to help us in the knowledge of God, because God is love. How can we understand it? We cannot understand the pre-incarnate conditions of Deity, because God dwells in unapproachable light. Christ is before us here in manhood, and we can apprehend it here in these relationships intelligible to us. God is within our range in these relationships.

G.A.L. You have said nothing about verse 4. Is that not very important to our enquiry, "in him was life"? Is that one of the distinctive glories that is seen in Christ as incarnate?

S.McC. Well, it is. It is referring to what has come within our range in this Person in manhood, "the light was the life of men". I suppose the life would be the light of

love. That is what it would be, a testimony to the love that was there.

C.H. Referring to this matter of love again, it is clear from Scripture that love existed between Them in those pre-incarnate days. But the form or expression of it we shall never know, but that love has been manifested, as you said, in an intelligible form in the love of a father for a son.

S.McC. Quite so. We need to see that the love in the relative is no different from the love in the absolute. It is the same love, only that we do not understand the relations of divine Persons to one another in absolute Deity; but the relationships as seen in the economy we do apprehend -- the mediatorial economy, seen in the Father, the Son and the Spirit.

W.S.S. What you were saying about knowledge would refer to the relative side, would it not?

S.McC. Yes, of course; we are speaking of what is within our range. Knowledge would allude to what has come within our range, not what is without our range. So it is important to see that after the Word is mentioned in verse 1, we get all these conditions as to the world and men, the moral darkness in the world, and what is said in verse 5, "the light appears in darkness, and the darkness apprehended it not". That is to be noticed, and then we get the reference to the only-begotten with a father, a figure of speech; and then in verse 18, "the only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father". After we get the affection side -- the love side, stressed. We get this position alluded to in verse 19 onwards, where there is such darkness as to the Person of Christ.

A.P.B. Might I ask for help as to the question of relationships between divine Persons in the economy. Is it right to say that the relationship between the Father and the Son is outstanding?

S.McC. Well, what is to be noted is that the relations between the Father and the Son are clearly defined, that is "the only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father". The Spirit's relations with the Father are not so defined. It is to help us to see the glory and attractiveness of the economy, that one divine Person enters a position where He is an Object of peculiar attractiveness, not only to men, but to divine Persons, to the Father and the Spirit. So that in verse 18, He is the peculiar Object of the Father's affections, but in verse 32 "I beheld the Spirit descending as a dove from heaven, and it abode upon him". He is the peculiar Object of the Spirit's movements in that verse.

T.J.G. And does this emphasise these peculiar relationships now? Are we entitled to carry that back into the pre-incarnate state?

S.McC. Do you mean these relationships that we have been just alluding to?

T.J.G. Yes, the peculiar emphasis on the intimacy between the Father and the Son as it appears in some sections of Scripture, and the Son Himself as the peculiar object of the Father's affections and the Spirit's affections. Are we right in taking these back to the past eternity?

S.McC. Not in what we are referring to here in verse 18. We could not carry the relationships there back into these conditions that you refer to. The Lord does say in John 17:24, "Thou lovedst me before the foundation of

the world", but that would allude to what was between divine Persons in that realm.

T.J.G. I just wanted to guard that; the fact that these relationships are emphasised in their peculiar setting, does not give us the right to think of them as being in the past eternity?

S.McC. No, we cannot carry back what is before us in the economy, in the way of relationship between divine Persons, into the abstract conditions of Deity, and make them descriptive of that, because they are not. They are descriptive of relationships that are linked with the revelation of God in the mediatorial economy into which He has come, where He is known in Christ.

M.P.S. Might I ask how far the last verse of chapter 17 goes -- "that the love with which thou hast loved me may be in them and I in them"? I have in mind your earlier reference as to the love not being different in the relative to what it is in the abstract.

S.McC. The love referred to there is the love of sonship, the love linked with sonship, the Father's love to the Son. We are to keep that clear, lest anyone should carry that back to the abstract conditions of Deity. What the Lord is alluding to there is the love between the Father and Himself. "The love with which thou hast loved me" is the love that is linked with the position of sonship in manhood, into which He came and in which He was the particular object of the Father's affections.

A.R.A. Does not Colossians 1:18 confirm what you are saying where it speaks of Christ as "the beginning"? He is the beginning.

S.McC. Yes, it does. That is what it says, does it not?

A.R.A. And as to all our thoughts of God, we have to begin with Christ in manhood.

S.McC. Yes, and John would help us to see, as he opens his gospel, the unique place that Christ has both as "the Word" and as "the only-begotten Son". We shall never know God apart from Christ. God being who He is, we are wholly dependent upon Christ in relation to the way He has been made known.

G.A.L. All this stresses the great thought of the incarnation, does it not, and this is what we are really considering, the Word become flesh. God coming into His own creation in the Person of the Son?

S.McC. It brings out, and should affect us as we think of it, that God is so near to us in this way that, as it says, "the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us", and then there is the reference to the relationships.

A.J.G. Would you say that there was in that way a certain intimation of what eternal conditions were going to be, for the tabernacle of God is going to be with men, is it not?

S.McC. Exactly. God will tabernacle with men. God will be with them, their God, so that we can see that the thought carries through, right into eternity.

L.T.R. Would you say a word as to the Lord's reference to Himself as "the Son of man who is in heaven" (John 3:13)?

S.McC. Well, it helps in this way, that it is always good for us to be reminded of the element of inscrutability in regard to the Person of Christ. There is that about the Person of Christ which is entirely beyond us, that we do not know, and we do not understand, and we just have to

be humble and simply accept it, and say that we do not understand it, because our minds are finite. How He could be here, and how He could be there, how can I understand it? And how could any of us explain it? We do well to be reminded in that way of the greatness of the Person, and what is inscrutable, and also of what has come within our range, so that we can understand it and apprehend it, as we are privileged to do.

W.S.S. So the two things must be kept distinct. I am thinking of the economy, first of all -- the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit made known to us. But there is that which is outside the economy, referred to in the beginning of the first chapter, to which you have been drawing our attention, which is beyond us, and yet which throws a certain lustre on all that is known. Would that be right?

S.McC. Yes, because what gives character to the economy is the greatness of the Persons that are before us in it. God has come into the economy. We are to be reminded that in what we have here -- the Deity -- God has drawn near, and is presented in Christ, and all the fulness of the Godhead dwells in Him.

W.S.S. I was wondering about that word fulness, as to whether it would link up with Colossians, that all the fulness dwells in Him bodily.

S.McC. Colossians 1 relates to the fulness being pleased to dwell, a particular allusion to what we have here, and then Colossians 2 would bear on what He is now. He is still a Man, and in Him, towards us, the fulness of the Godhead dwells bodily.

W.S.S. So that in contemplating the Lord in John 1:14 they were contemplating the fulness, I judge? It goes on

to say, "of his fulness we have all received" (verse 16). Is not all the fulness presented there, in the Lord?

S.McC. In verse 16? You are not linking that with the fulness of Colossians 1, are you?

W.S.S. I am asking whether that would link with Colossians 1, the fulness was pleased to dwell in him?

S.McC. Well, in Colossians 1 it is the fulness of the Godhead, it is the Deity, but in John 1:16 it is not Deity.

W.C. Is not the fulness here, that which links on with "full of grace and truth"? That is what we have here, is it?

S.McC. Yes, it is what came out in Him as Man, in relation to His manhood.

W.C. And would that be to set us free for contemplation, because we need both grace and truth, being what we are, do we not? In view of our being set free to contemplate?

J.A.P. Do you think in the thought of the fulness of the Godhead you have what is inscrutable, as the Lord could say, "no one knows the Son but the Father" (Matthew 11:27). Whereas in this fulness there is that which we can apprehend -- the fulness as presented in John 1?

S.McC. The thought of the fulness alludes to what is coming out, and alludes to what is before us in Christ. We should keep that in mind so that Colossians 2 -- the fulness of the Godhead dwelling in Him bodily -- represents what has come within our range. The "bodily" alluding to the fact that it can be apprehended.

C.H. It has been said that the fulness of a thing is not so great as the thing itself?

S.McC. No, exactly. We might allude now to the last section we read, where John says, "I knew him not", first

in verse 31, and again in verse 33. It should help us in relation to what is within our range in the mediatorial economy that is contemplated here, to consider whether we are arriving at things on natural lines, or arriving at what is here under the divine hand, and helped by divine Persons Themselves. John says, "and I knew him not; but he who sent me to baptise with water, he said to me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending and abiding on him, he it is who baptises with the Holy Spirit. And I have seen and borne witness that this is the Son of God". The emphatic He, "He said to me … And I have seen and borne witness that this is the Son of God". We see how John comes into the truth of the sonship of Christ here, because he comes under the hand of a divine Person and is instructed in regard to the Person of Christ.

THE KNOWLEDGE OF DIVINE PERSONS AND THINGS (2)

S McCallum

John 3:7 - 13; John 4:10, 19 - 24, 46 - 54

S.McC. The subject we are considering together is that of the knowledge of divine Persons and divine things, as set out in this gospel. We considered the first part of the first chapter in the earlier reading, especially alluding to the way in which Christ is brought on to our view as "the Word", and as "the only-begotten Son who is in the bosom of the Father". All this is suggestive of what enters into the revelation of God as we have it according to John. Someone has said that we need to know John's God. These passages that we considered earlier bear on that -- how God has come within our range in Christ, involving such wondrous knowledge as it does, and also entering into our subject there is the thought of divine personality. We considered the Lord Jesus in the first chapter, and now He comes again before us in these scriptures that we have read, with added thoughts in the interim. We have now three individuals specifically before us. What we considered earlier bore on the general position, the light being shed on every man, and the declaration standing related to the whole public position. Now we come to the operational side in regard to individuals. We have Nicodemus, and the woman of Samaria, and the nobleman -- the courtier of Galilee. The brethren will notice that the Lord says to Nicodemus, "Thou art the teacher of Israel

and knowest not these things!" (John 3:10). The Lord brings up the matter of knowledge especially, with a man that professedly knew the Scriptures. For the teacher of Israel would be one who supposedly and professedly had the Scriptures in his hands, and, if he did not know them, should have known them, and the Lord says, "We speak that which we know" (John 3:11). The Lord is referring to a class of persons who know what they are speaking about, and He sets out the ideal Himself. Then to the woman of Samaria, the Lord says, "If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that says to thee" (John 4:10), again stressing the greatness of the Person. Then when the matter of the worship of God comes up, He says, "We worship what we know" (John 4:22). The courtier, you remember, was an observant man; he was following up the truth, and watching what was transpiring even to the reckoning of time, and it says that he knew. "The father therefore knew that it was in that hour in which Jesus said to him" (John 4:53). We can see in these passages how knowledge is accumulating in regard to divine Persons and divine things. We have the Spirit and new birth in the first, and the Lord Jesus Himself presented to us again; then the Spirit and the worship of God in the second; and then the matter of healing. Perhaps these things may yield to us as we enquire together.

It is to be noticed in the first passage that we have read, that the element of inscrutability, both as to the Spirit and as to the Son of man, again comes out. There is nothing we need to keep more before us than the element of inscrutability in regard to divine Persons. There is much that we do not know, but there is much that enters into our

subject that we can know -- we are privileged to know, and therefore the importance of coming under the divine hand.

A.H.G. What is it you are referring to as to inscrutability?

S.McC. I was thinking of verse 8, "The wind blows where it will, and thou hearest its voice, but knowest not whence it comes and where it goes: thus is everyone that is born of the Spirit". Then there is the reference to the Son of man (verse 13), "And no one has gone up into heaven, save he who came down out of heaven, the Son of man who is in heaven". The element of inscrutability is there. What one is thinking of is that it is good to be reminded, and to have constantly kept before us, our finiteness, because of the creature mind and understanding which marks us.

A.J.G. Have you in mind that that would keep us in lowliness of mind, and thus in a condition suitable for divine operations?

S.McC. That is just exactly what one is thinking of, the need for lowliness. When we come to the exalted subject of the knowledge of divine Persons, and divine things, we cannot presume to know everything -- we are reminded of our limitations.

A.Hn. Does verse 2 illustrate the pretentious religious mind? He says, "we know" and so on.

S.McC. It is important to see this side of Nicodemus, because he represents what is all around us, especially in a religious and pretentious way, and we have to judge it in our minds and hearts. What the Lord says takes the ground from under the feet of Nicodemus, so that he has no ground to stand on.

E.J.H. Would you say in that sense that he had to learn that he could carry nothing whatever over into the spiritual sphere?

S.McC. Yes, the Lord is teaching him as to this matter of new birth. There is nothing like new birth to take us down. If that was kept before our minds in the working out of soul history, it would have a very salutary effect. It removes all the bombast, pride and greatness of man, just that radical touch of new birth.

E.J.H. And yet it introduces us into something that is infinitely great.

S.McC. Exactly, introduces something into our beings that changes us throughout. It is the introduction of something that is going to affect every part of us -- affect the way we think, and what we do.

G.A.L. And it gives us the capacity to begin to understand, and drink in the glory of the Son?

S.McC. Just so. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit. We get a suggestion there of the affinities that are produced in this action. It is not 'that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit', but "is spirit" -- it partakes of that character. We are dealing now with the knowledge of divine Persons in relation to a spiritual order of things. "God is a spirit", it is said, referring to the spiritual character of things we have to do with in God, as He has come within our range in this way.

P.H.H. How do you understand the three things? Those who are born anew (verse 3), and then born of water and of spirit (verse 5) -- are they cumulative?

S.McC. I would say they are. The one stresses the sovereign action of the Spirit in introducing into our

beings that which changes us entirely. The other introduces the moral element, does it not, "born of water", the negative side, and "of Spirit", the positive side. The one has to do with seeing, the other with entering. So it is cumulative in that way.

J.A.P. What does the Lord include in the thought of the earthly things, which Nicodemus ought to have known about?

S.McC. Well, new birth is an earthly thing. New birth is not exactly what we might call an eternal thing. What it produces, of course, has to do with eternal things. But new birth is something that is introduced in connection with the ways of God, and it is linked with the earthly side of the truth.

J.A.P. You are referring to Ezekiel 36:24 - 27?

S.McC. Yes, Ezekiel brings in the matter of new birth.

P.H.H. Would that be the principle that God has operated on from the beginning -- the principle of new birth?

S.McC. That is it.

P.H.H. It did not commence with christianity.

S.McC. No. From Adam onwards the principle of new birth applies, does it not?

C.W.O'L.M. Does the thought of the kingdom of God, into which new birth introduces us, become a basic matter now?

S.McC. It does. Especially would it help us to this matter of lowliness and subjection; the necessity of being humble, lowly and subject, to get the gain of the knowledge that we are considering in this gospel. The

kingdom of God would have a great place in the displacement in us of what would be contrary to that.

J.P.H. Is there a particular point in the reference to the flesh? "That which is born of flesh is flesh". Is there something besides contrast in that verse? I was just wondering whether we need to discern the workings of the flesh, which might come in in some subtle way to hinder us from arriving at the full thought of God?

S.McC. The Lord is dealing with things which lie at the basis of christianity -- what we have to learn in the very elements of things, the rudiments of things in christian teaching. "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit". It may take some of us perhaps some time to arrive at it, but it is introduced into the very rudiments of christian teaching.

J.S.E. Are we not being helped, as we go over the truth now, to arrive at what has already been established in detail and set out plainly in the Lord's own ministry?

S.McC. Yes, I am sure we are. One of the great services of the Spirit is to bring into our minds the Lord's own ministry here.

J.S.E. He covered, did He not, the whole range when He said to Nicodemus, "Do not wonder that I said to thee, It is needful that ye should be born anew". As though He is introducing something to Nicodemus which in its effect pertains to the whole earth.

S.McC. Yes, exactly. So that what we had earlier bore on what is set out in relation to Christ and His deity; first His place in the form of God, and then His place in manhood -- Object of divine delight, bringing out the spirit of excellence in His manhood in that delightful

environment referred to in John 1:14 - 17. But now, we are coming to what bears upon ourselves, moral conditions with and in ourselves, and how individual persons are coming under the divine hand. Nicodemus was a subject of new birth, but was in darkness as to it. He was in darkness as to what had really transpired in his own soul.

A.Hn. In connection with the moral side, would you say a word as to the distinction between seeing the kingdom of God and entering it?

S.McC. Well, it is one thing to see it, it is another to enter it. None of us could see anything apart from the operation of new birth. New birth brings about a total collapse. Mr. Raven likened it to a rent balloon -- the whole thing collapses, and that is what happens in new birth. ⁺ Then there is the thought of being born of water and of Spirit which affects our ways -- our manners and deportment; it comes out initially.

E.J.H. Would you say that one of the greatest comforts of new birth is that it results in spiritual tastes, and a desire for a sphere in which they may find full scope?

S.McC. Well, it opens up the way to that. New birth does not give us much. We cannot build too much on it, but there is something mysteriously and inscrutably introduced which affects us radically throughout.

A.W.G.T. You would not say it goes so far as to bring in very much consciousness?

S.McC. The only consciousness it brings in is helplessness -- the consciousness of helplessness, and

⁺F.E.R., N.S., Volume 5, page 33

weakness. Mr. Raven says, all it produces is a cry, a cry of want or pain,⁺ then the glad tidings comes in with light, as to the Saviour, and as to the kingdom.

A.B. Do we need the Spirit to get practical deliverance? That is, the Spirit working in us, practically setting us free from the flesh, as we have in Romans 7 and 8. So that the man says, "I delight in the law of God according to the inward man" (Romans 7:22). Would that be somewhat akin to "that which is born of the Spirit is spirit"?

S.McC. Well, that is further on than what we have here -- I mean in progressive teaching. New birth brings about a complete collapse of the man; and later, what often happens, I suppose, is the revival of the features that have been collapsed, so that there is disturbance within. We need to know deliverance as it is set out in those chapters that you refer to, Romans 6, 7 and 8.

E.C.L. Does new birth bring in the ability to believe what is presented? What is developing in John is the believing on this Person.

S.McC. Yes, it makes us sensitive to divine impressions -- that is what new birth brings about. For instance it says in John 1:5, "The light appears in darkness, and the darkness apprehended it not". Well, what brings about a change in our souls? It is the action of new birth that brings about something that renders us sensitive to what may be presented in the glad tidings in the way of light.

⁺ F.E.R., Volume 10, page 168

G.A.L. So that the cry from Saul of Tarsus was, "Who art thou, Lord?" (Acts 9:5).

S.McC. That is it -- "Who art thou?" There was still the element of darkness in his soul, but light was coming in.

A.H.G. Would this prepare us for divine teaching?

S.McC. Well, yes. I think we need to understand this principle as seen in Nicodemus, and the action of new birth in regard to a person like him, because it is laying the foundation for an act of faith in relation to the teaching running through these three passages. The Lord has in mind active faith, in which we progress in relation to the knowledge of divine Persons and divine things.

A.W.G.T. In a certain sense it involves a kind of demolition, before anything positive can be built in the man?

S.McC. Well, it is the collapse of the man, but there is something positive introduced. You see it is not entirely negative; there is a positive thread introduced into the man's moral being which changes the whole texture.

W.J.B. Is it introducing something of very great potentiality?

S.McC. That is what it is. Something is introduced in principle into the man's make-up, his being.

W.O.S. Is that seen in verse 8, "Thus is everyone that is born of the Spirit"?

S.McC. Yes; it says, "The wind blows where it will, and thou hearest its voice, but knowest not whence it comes and where it goes: thus is everyone that is born of the Spirit". That is to be noticed, "thus is".

A.J.G. And is all this to emphasise the sovereignty of God? As it says, "The wind blows where it will". Is it not a question of our being brought back to the sovereignty of God?

S.McC. It is, and it should help us as to the divine Personality of the Spirit, in His part in this great operation; that is, making a way for us in regard to the knowledge that is within our range. We owe it to Him.

P.H.H. Does not being born of water and of the Spirit ensure that there is something pure there as to the source?

S.McC. That is it, so that the Spirit is not only the active agent in new birth, but He is the source of the new birth.

A.R. Would it be right to say then that new birth is entirely the sovereign work of the Spirit and is apart from human agency?

S.McC. Well, it is, and we see its bearing here, its full bearing here, on the religious side, not in John 4, but on a man like Nicodemus, an instructed man, a man who is a teacher in Israel. But the Lord says to him, "Thou art the teacher of Israel and knowest not these things! Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that which we know, and we bear witness of that which we have seen". It is striking how the Lord brings in the knowledge that was with Him, and those that are embodied in the "we" over against what marked Nicodemus, "and knowest not these things!"

F.W.K. Is new birth antecedent to what we had this afternoon as to those who were born not of man's will but of God? Would you distinguish, please?

S.McC. Well, new birth has to do with things in principle. When we come to "born of God" we come to

what partakes of the traits of the children of God; they come out in moral traits that mark them as of that generation, children of God.

A.W.G.T. That is shown in the reception of Christ, is it?

S.McC. Yes, exactly, so that you have something positive in that relation.

J.S.E. Have we to see, in this discourse with Nicodemus, how the Lord meets him point by point, so that He can come to this matter that you referred to as to inscrutability, and leaves him in the sense of his own complete ignorance of anything? Nicodemus first speaks as a patron, does he not. "We know that thou art come a teacher", and the Lord says that unless a man is born anew he cannot see the kingdom. Then Nicodemus speaks from a natural and logical standpoint, referring to the womb of his mother. The Lord then brings in the matter of entry, does He not, and then finally introduces the positive thing, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit". Does not Nicodemus represent a person who has some status on a certain line, and that is all laid bare, whereas in chapter 1 those who received Christ have never had a status, have they?

S.McC. That is right. The Lord is taking this person up on the ground on which he stands as a teacher of Israel, and the Lord is stressing this matter in a peculiar way with him, as if it is to affect Nicodemus in regard to the matter of his knowledge of divine things and divine Persons.

E.J.H. Do you get three features running through these passages which you have called attention to? That is, what

is religious in Nicodemus; what is moral in the woman; and then the side of what is natural with the courtier?

S.McC. Yes, all that runs through the passages that we have read together, especially stressing the Lord's hand-to-hand service, if I might reverently say so, in regard to individuals. That is, the Lord is viewed here as taking persons on in relation to the different states of soul that are expressed in these passages.

A.H.G. In that way, do we need to apprehend the Lord as Teacher? Nicodemus says, "thou art come a teacher". Has that to be corrected to see the greatness of the Lord in this way as Teacher?

S.McC. Yes, that is interesting, in contrast to what the Lord said to him, "Thou art the teacher of Israel". The Lord does not say, 'Thou art a teacher of Israel', but "Thou art the teacher of Israel". Nicodemus was no ordinary man; he must have been a man of good capacity, as men would speak of him, and all around we see that. But the Lord takes him up and speaks very faithfully to him about this matter of new birth, which really leaves Nicodemus wondering as to where he is.

H.F.R. Three times the Lord says to him, "I say unto thee". I was thinking of what you were saying as to the feature of 'authority' in the economy, how the Lord comes in in such a distinct way to teach Nicodemus.

S.McC. How important that is; it is the Word that is speaking -- "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God". The One who is anointed to unfold the whole mind of God. He is here speaking, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee", and who can speak after Him?

A.Hn. Would you say a word as to why, with such sterile material as Nicodemus seems to be, He speaks to him of love in a way that He speaks to no one else, "For God so loved" and so on?

S.McC. Well, surely it is an example set before us, as to whether we are learning. There are those that are always learning, but never seem to come to the knowledge of the truth, and Nicodemus represents that side. He is not extricated from the associations and links in which he was held. This knowledge that the Lord introduces in His ministry and service to Nicodemus should have had an extricating effect with him.

E.J.H. Do you think that the Lord chose Nicodemus, as having everything religiously, as best setting forth the necessity of new birth?

S.McC. Just so. So that we might not be inclined to say, 'Well, they are the worst', the Lord introduces it in relation to the best. Because that is where the trouble lies, it is in persons like Nicodemus, who do not feel they need help. All around we see that, and we have to judge it in our own hearts as a principle.

A.J.G. I was just wondering, as you were remarking about the Lord taking on each of these cases individually, whether we get the secret of that later on, where the Lord says, "All that the Father gives me shall come to me, and him that comes to me I will not at all cast out" (John 6:37). So that is not each soul the subject of the Father's giving, and of the Lord's taking on and instructing, and of the Spirit's operations? Is not each soul the subject of the operations of the whole Godhead?

S.McC. Well, exactly, so that it sets in wondrous relief the blessedness of the economy from that side -- not only the love that has come into expression in what divine Persons are towards us, as shown in the Father's love to the Son, and the Son laying down His life, but this matter of taking us in hand in view of our instruction in the knowledge that has come within our range in the economy. I think it is most affecting in that way.

G.A.L. So that the Spirit quickens in new birth those whom the Father has chosen in Christ from before the world's foundation. Does it not emphasise, as you were saying, the divine Personality of the Spirit as well as that of the Son?

S.McC. Well, it does, and I am sure that we must not eliminate the element of responsibility from new birth in the preaching, because the Lord is speaking to Nicodemus, and saying, "It is needful that ye should be born anew;" -- that is, the emphatic "ye".

Ques. What is the difference between being born anew, and born of water and of Spirit?

S.McC. Well, that was asked at the beginning of the reading, and reference was made to the sovereign action of the Spirit in new birth, being born anew. The other is a little further on in the teaching as to the moral side.

Ques. A further operation of the Spirit?

S.McC. Except any one be born of water and of Spirit brings in the character of the thing now.

C.H. Does that involve the teaching of death -- born of water?

S.McC. Yes, the water is the negative side; we would have that in mind -- the separative side.

E.J.B. Would you say a little more about the side of responsibility in new birth?

S.McC. Well, here it is. The Lord is saying to Nicodemus, so that Nicodemus should be arrested, "It is needful that ye should be born anew". He is laying it on him.

W.J.B. So that it would be right to draw attention to it in the preaching, would it not?

S.McC. Well, certainly, especially bearing on persons with religious airs, and religious thinking and feelings.

T.J.G. Is the responsibility, then, to recognise the necessity for new birth, not that the person can do anything about it, but must recognise that it is an absolutely essential thing?

S.McC. Well, that is it. The Lord lays it upon him in that way. The way that it comes in, in relation to a religious man, is important. The worst thing to bring down in any of our minds is the religious element, if it gets enthroned in any shape or form, as the religious and legal element did at Galatia; it is a most difficult thing to bring down. The Lord is stressing the radical side of the truth in connection with that feature.

P.H.H. I suppose the full answer to being born of water would work out in baptism, would it not?

S.McC. Well, it would; there is the link there with baptism, the moral element entering into baptism.

P.H.H. So that when the light of being born of water and of Spirit is recognised, you can understand that the moral and responsible element must enter into the person.

S.McC. That is right.

R.C. Is the Lord laying the responsible side before him in verse 12?

S.McC. Well, that is the point too. He goes on teaching, and says, "We speak that which we know, and we bear witness of that which we have seen, and ye receive not our witness. If I have said the earthly things to you, and ye believe not, how, if I say the heavenly things to you, will ye believe?" Now notice the Lord uses a plural pronoun "we" in verse 11, but the personal pronoun "I" in verse 12. He is speaking in a general way in verse 11, of a class of persons that have knowledge according to God, "We speak that which we know". But then when He comes in verse 12 to "If I have said the earthly things to you", He is alluding specifically to what He said to Nicodemus.

W.S.S. Does that put responsibility upon us, in relation to the teaching today?

S.McC. Well, it does, so the Lord says, "and ye believe not". This matter of active faith in relation to the teaching is important.

W.S.S. I was thinking how we need to take home to ourselves what is said to Nicodemus, that we may be marked by believing, as the truth is unfolded.

S.McC. Well, that is the point, I think; that is the lesson for us. Mr. Raven said, as you will recall perhaps better than I do, that if a man goes off in his latter years he always wondered if there was something rotten in his foundation. ⁺ Well, when we have difficulty as to the truth we might well go back and see whether we have what the Lord is saying here in the teaching.

⁺ F.E.R., N.S., Volume 14, page 13

B.H. In the matter of learning and receiving the truth, do you distinguish the part played by the spirit and the mind?

S.McC. I am not sure that I follow you.

B.H. I was wondering if it was a faculty that is deeper than the thinking faculty. "For who of men hath known the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him?" (1 Corinthians 2:11); new birth coming in, in connection with the spirit. I wondered if there was something to be learned besides acquiring knowledge.

S.McC. Yes. The element of new birth entering into a man affects his thinking faculties as well as affecting him throughout, so that he does not think in the way he formerly thought.

A.W.G.T. Is that not involved in being born anew -- that means, from top to bottom?

S.McC. Well, that is the point. It is, as the word has been used, radical; that is, it is throughout, from top to bottom.

W.J.B. The fact that we make room for the Spirit does not in any way eliminate the mind, does it? It means that we think with subject minds.

S.McC. That is it, and renewed minds, minds that have been affected by new birth.

J.A.P. Was it said that new birth is not a matter of divine sovereignty?

S.McC. Who said that?

J.A.P. I am asking whether you are saying that, suggesting that there is responsibility connected with it?

S.McC. We did not put it that way. What was said was that in stressing divine sovereignty in the act of new birth

we must not eliminate entirely the side of responsibility, and that it is presented to a responsible man, and his responsibility is stressed in relation to it. "It is needful that ye should be born anew". That was what was said.

H.W. Does the word "ye" refer to the Jewish nation?

S.McC. It refers to the religious man, but he is taken up by John the evangelist to show us the best in a religious way.

H.W. And would you be free in the preaching of the gospel to say emphatically, "Ye must be born anew"?

S.McC. Most certainly I do. Especially if you are having to do with a religious person, built up in his religious thoughts, or a religious audience, it certainly would be quite in keeping to stress "It is needful that ye should be born anew".

A.W.G.T. That is, you are not putting the onus of being born on the person, but making room in his mind for the fact that he needs to be born anew?

S.McC. Well, that is the point.

J.P.H. Does Peter touch on it in 1 Peter 1:24, 25? He says, "Because all flesh is as grass, and all its glory as the flower of grass … this is the word which in the glad tidings is preached to you". Does it come into the preaching?

S.McC. Yes, it is very interesting the way Peter puts it; it would involve an action which affects the intelligence. He says, "being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the living and abiding word of God" (verse 23). That should affect the intelligence of the person.

F.W.K. Would it be right to say that all men are responsible, but that new birth will give men to realise their responsibility? Is it the element of new birth that would give souls some measure of light and responsibility?

S.McC. Well, new birth gives us our first initial touch, you might say, which brings into our souls our feeling of responsibility towards God.

A.J.G. Is not all this instruction to Nicodemus to prepare the way in his soul to receive the light of the cross -- the Son of man lifted up, and the gift of God in eternal life to those who believe?

S.McC. That is it, so that the Lord says as He continues, in verse 12, "how, if I say the heavenly things to you, will ye believe? And no one has gone up into heaven, save he who came down out of heaven, the Son of man who is in heaven. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, thus must the Son of man be lifted up". How searching the teaching is now; the Lord is building up in the teaching.

G.A.L. I was wondering whether it was desirable to see that this chapter is teaching rather than preaching.

S.McC. Well, it is. It is the Lord teaching Nicodemus, but that does not eliminate the insistence on the new birth in the preaching.

G.A.L. I can understand that. I was thinking that it comes out in the setting of teaching, that is all.

S.McC. That is how it comes out in John 3 here, but Peter says, "this is the word which in the glad tidings is preached unto you", involving what we have here, although it is really more advanced.

W.J.B. It was really the word through Isaiah, was it not?

S.McC. You mean all flesh is as grass?

W.J.B. I mean, in principle, that is what is implied in Isaiah 40.

S.McC. Peter was referring to that, no doubt, in what he is alluding to.

Ques. Did you say that Nicodemus was born anew although ignorant of it?

S.McC. Yes. Nicodemus is one in whom new birth has taken place.

J.H. So that verse 21 would apply to Nicodemus in that regard?

S.McC. Yes, "he that practises the truth comes to the light". Although we cannot say much about Nicodemus, we must not build too much on him either, as to practising the truth, but nevertheless we give full credit for what is there, and the Lord is treating him now as one in whom new birth has taken place.

J.S.E. Does the Lord, in this conversation, bring Nicodemus low in himself in relation to the matter of new birth, and then find pleasure in expanding the teaching to the points to which Mr. G. has referred, in the Son of man being lifted up and God so loved the world. In each of those cases He brings in the great matter of believing. Is not the earlier part of the chapter what you have rightly called the laying-low principle, in order that there might be more room for these expanded things which are connected with the Lord as the Son of man and God's only-begotten Son?

S.McC. I am sure that is right, so that in regard to what we have been saying, while the Lord is teaching Nicodemus patiently in regard to the truth, He is seeking to expand him in regard to the whole gospel vista. What is before us here in this section is the great vista in the gospel, and especially is it needful over against popular evangelism, which does not deal with the state of man. The Lord is bringing in what is essential to help us in regard to the great vista of things in the gospel, "thus must the Son of man be lifted up, that every one who believes on him may not perish, but have life eternal. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whosoever believes on him may not perish but have life eternal". As Mr. Darby says (see note b), the sense would be that He has loved men in view of eternal life. This is to expand our vista in the gospel, so that we preach the gospel with this kind of vista.

A.Hn. Mr. Stoney used to remark, you remember, that we change our man,⁺ and does the teaching of this chapter really help us in that, and so liberate us in view of the service of God?

S.McC. Well, it does, so that we should get on to the matter of what comes in in chapter 4.

P.H.H. Do you mind first saying another word about inscrutability attached now to the Lord? Is it right to say that in what the Lord has said as to "the wind blows where it will" He is really bringing forward the inscrutability of the Spirit? But then He says, "no one has gone up into heaven, save he who came down out of heaven, the Son of

⁺ J.B.S., N.S., Volume 2, page 465; Volume 6, page 23

man who is in heaven". Does that prepare our minds for greatness in the person of Christ which we can never compass, making us worshipful?

S.McC. It does, and it is important to keep that in mind in regard to divine Persons; especially it would save us from limiting divine Persons, or fixing upon divine Persons any position that They may take, or limiting Them to a position that They take. We need special help as to that, that even as we think of certain things and positions that They have taken up we must always bear in mind that there is something beyond that that we cannot compass.

P.H.H. Does the very title Son of man tend to make us think perhaps that the Lord Jesus has come so near to man, to take everything up for him, that we might possibly lose sight of the greatness of the Person who has done it?

S.McC. Well, exactly, so that it is important to see how the Lord brings it in here, "No one has gone up into heaven, save he who came down out of heaven, the Son of man who is in heaven". Now some one might say, 'Well, explain that'. How can we explain it? We cannot explain it, we are just to believe it; there it is in the Scripture. How the Lord could be there, and how He could be here, how could we explain it?

P.H.H. And yet it serves to magnify all the heavenly things which He is about to speak of.

S.McC. Yes, so that we are reminded in speaking of the Lord as Man, and speaking of Him as a Bondman that we must be careful not to limit Him to that -- there is that which is beyond either of these positions.

C.M. Would you say more in regard to the inscrutability of the Holy Spirit?

S.McC. Oh, just that it says, "The wind blows where it will, and thou hearest its voice, but knowest not whence it comes and where it goes: thus is everyone that is born of the Spirit". We are reminded of the element of inscrutability in regard to divine operations; the Spirit operating in relation to new birth. We cannot explain it or give account of it -- there it is.

We must move on to chapter 4 to consider this passage which brings in the Spirit in the figure of the living water, and then knowledge in that relation. Then the matter of the worship of God, as the woman brings it up and the Lord speaks to her about it; and the matter of healing. The thought of faith -- active faith is important in all this. The Lord says to her (verse 10), "If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that says to thee" -- that is, she is reminded now of the Person who is speaking to her. Again, we might say it is the Word that is speaking to her, the One in whom the full mind of God is made known -- is revealed.

E.J.H. The woman says, "when he comes he will tell us all things".

S.McC. That is it, and the Lord says to her, "I who speak to thee am he" -- showing the greatness of the Person who is there.

E.C.L. Do you get the thought of responsibility being raised with the woman directly she says, "Give me this water", which the Lord had proposed? The Lord raises these moral questions with her: "Go, call thy husband, and come here". Have these things to be settled first before we can receive anything?

S.McC. Yes, they have. Showing the importance of the adjustment of moral matters. The Lord brings up the thought of the living water first; that is, He does not say, 'He would have given thee the Holy Spirit'. He says, "He would have given thee living water". As we have pointed out, He is treating the woman according to her capacity as a learner. We have to learn how, with certain persons, to treat them according to their capacity, and that is what we have here; but the figure in the living water suggests the Holy Spirit.

J.S.E. In a certain way, would it be safe to say the Lord exhibits more grace in His dealing with this moral wreck, than He did with the religious assumption of Nicodemus? There are radical statements, are there not, in chapter 3, but are not the statements somewhat more attractive in this chapter?

S.McC. Well, they are. The patience with which He takes her on and serves her is most affecting, especially the fact that He says to such a disreputable woman, "If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that says to thee, Give me to drink, thou wouldest have asked of him". A woman of social disrepute, and yet the Lord is stressing the thought of His Person -- who He is, to her.

A.H.G. Have you a word as to what is involved in drinking? In the previous incident it is a matter of believing; here it is a question of drinking?

S.McC. Well, it brings up this matter of the Spirit. In regard to the feature of knowledge of divine Persons and divine things that we are considering, this matter of the Spirit is important, because it is going to involve inward

deliverance from what is morally degrading and corrupting.

A.J.G. And not only deliverance, would you say, but also satisfaction?

S.McC. That is it, so that we have the positive suggestion in the living water of what would be satisfying.

E.J.H. Has it not been described as satisfaction over against gratification?

S.McC. Yes, she no doubt was seeking to gratify certain desires and lusts in her way of living, but the Lord would bring her to a satisfied state of things, a region of satisfied desires, as has been said.

E.J.B. Are there two stages: one the Lord giving, and the other our drinking? The Lord gives the living water, but then it is "whosoever drinks" -- on our side.

S.McC. Yes, showing the importance of our side. So that the Spirit is in mind in this chapter, and it is an essential part of what we are considering. The necessity for the Spirit; not the necessity for new birth here, but the necessity for the Spirit, in setting us up in purified relations with God. That is the teaching here -- purified relations with divine Persons.

A.H.G. So that drinking would involve appropriation would it? And is that not sometimes where we are lacking in relation to the divine service, because there has been so little with us on the line of appropriation?

S.McC. That is it. We need to drink, we need to be on the line of desire in this way. She says, "Sir, give me this water, that I may not thirst nor come here to draw" -- come here to draw. She already has a judgment of what she has been going on with, feeble as it may be, but there it is, and

"Jesus says to her, Go, call thy husband, and come here". Come here. That is, He is going to bring her back after the moral issue is searched -- bring her back to this position.

A.B. Would the drinking bring in the service of the Spirit in engaging our hearts with Christ, so that we learn to find satisfaction in Him? And then the further thought of the Spirit becoming a fountain in us, giving spring to our affections. Is that needed if God is to be served rightly?

S.McC. Oh, it is, because a living state of things is in mind, especially in view of the service of God, and the Spirit is introduced in that way, setting out what is living, as living water. Why should the Lord stress living water, if it is not that a living state of things is in mind. And the service of God necessitates a living state of things.

C.H. And the retention of the person -- "the Father seeks such" -- that is the persons, is it?

S.McC. Well, it is an important thing to see that -- the kind of persons -- for she says in verse 20, "Our fathers worshipped in this mountain, and ye say that in Jerusalem is the place where one must worship". Jesus says to her, "Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when ye shall neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem worship the Father". Notice how He brings in the Father now; this is an added touch in the instruction, "worship the Father". "Ye worship ye know not what; we worship what we know, for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour is coming and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth". Now the Lord is bringing in the refined side of knowledge in christianity here. He brought it in in speaking to Nicodemus, enlarging our outlook in

connection with the glad tidings -- the great gospel vista. Here He is bringing it in in relation to the woman -- knowledge in connection with the refined inward side of the worship of God.

M.P.S. Is there something for our help in the woman's occupation with place -- as to the word "Come here to draw;" "our fathers worshipped in this mountain, and ye say that in Jerusalem is the place where one must worship"?

S.McC. Well, I think it is important to see that the Lord is seeking to remove from our minds geographical thoughts and material ideas. There is nothing more important than that material and physical thoughts should be removed in this matter of the worship of God, because God is a spirit -- not 'the Father is a spirit', -- that is not the point here. "God is a spirit; and they who worship him must worship him in spirit and truth". That is, the worship of God is spiritual, not material.

H.F.R. Do the three Persons come in in this scripture leading up to God -- I mean, there is the Lord Himself as the Giver of the living water, and then there is what the water becomes in him, and then the Father seeks?

S.McC. Exactly. So we are reminded again of the full scope of the activities of the Persons of the Godhead in relation to this matter, all serving with a great end and objective in mind. The way the Lord brings in the Father here is instructive: God before us in that relation, in the thought of the Father; God coming into a certain relationship in view of a full end that is in mind.

A.J.G. Does the fact that the Lord says, "God is a spirit; and they who worship him must worship him in

spirit and truth" show how God has in mind that we should be in wonderful affinity with Himself?

S.McC. That is it. It would bring up the need for the Holy Spirit, do you not think. How could we worship God in this spiritual way without the help of the Holy Spirit?

A.J.G. Quite so.

P.H.H. Were you going to say some more about the Father?

S.McC. Oh, I think it is important that we should see the Person that is presented to us in the Father. It is not exactly the relationship here -- it is the Person, the wonderful glory of that Person in the Godhead, that God is presented to us in that Person.

P.H.H. So graciously.

S.McC. Yes, so graciously.

E.J.H. Do we see the skill of the Lord as Teacher in that He transferred her thoughts from "our fathers" to "the Father"?

S.McC. Well, He is bringing in something that she had never heard of before; she had never heard of the Father. It is remarkable how the Lord brings the name in without explaining anything about it. He says, "when ye shall neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem worship the Father". Is it not a credit to the work of God in the woman? He is treating her as a subject of the work of God, so that she would take in this knowledge that He is imparting as to "the Father", involving the place that Person has in the economy. God is presented to us in the Father.

W.S.S. And I suppose it would bring in all that is under the Father -- the many families, what is under the Father's hand, so to speak.

S.McC. The Father puts His impress on every family.

J.S.E. Is it interesting that the Lord removes from her mind first of all the two places -- this mountain and Jerusalem; and then He removes from her mind two classes, ye and we, coming to they, who worship the Father, "the Father seeks such as his worshippers"?

S.McC. Very good.

J.S.E. So that the Lord arrives at a point with her when He accepts the position of being a Jew. But then He goes further and says, "the hour is coming and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth; for also the Father seeks such as his worshippers". It does seem, does it not, that He is attracting her now away from place, and away from classes, to bring her into the one and only setting where this matter of worshipping the Father can operate. Is that right?

S.McC. Yes, exactly, so that all the knowledge that is being imparted in the teaching is leading to this final result that the Lord has in mind in the thought of worship. First of all, worship in the special way to which He refers in verse 23, "the hour is coming and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth; for also the Father seeks such as his worshippers". That is, God as having come in in this way, in that special name by which He is known in this dispensation. But then the Lord does not leave her there, He brings in the great general thought as to God. He does not leave her without an

impression as to the general thought of God -- God in His majesty and greatness involving all three Persons. "God is a spirit; and they who worship him must worship him in spirit and truth". We approach God in a known relationship -- in the relationship in which we stand to Him in sonship, revealed as He is in the wondrous name of Father in the economy. But then, that is not the final thing -- there is the great thought as to God, Christ's God, the God who has come within our range in Christ, and who is now the great exalted Object of worship. "God is a spirit; and they who worship him must worship him in spirit and truth".

H.F.R. Are we limited to the economy, or is there any sense in which we worship God as inscrutable?

S.McC. We are always regulated by the economy, because we have only creature minds and understandings. The only way in which we have to do with absoluteness is as alongside of Christ, hearing Him say, "my God". We get a sense of what is beyond us in that, and yet He goes on to say, "and your God". We worship God as having made Himself known -- not in conditions, or an environment where He is unknown to us.

C.H. But it is the same God.

S.McC. It is the same God, that is what we should see; no less than God, so that, as the teaching has very persistently drawn our attention to it, we cannot limit God to a relationship into which He comes. We have to do with Him and approach Him in a known relationship, and stand before Him in that known relationship, but the God who has come into that relationship is the God who is the

Supreme Object of worship, the Supreme Object of all things.

A.J.G. The very fact that He has initiated the economy itself compels worship, does it not?

S.McC. It does. It is all directed towards that end.

W.B.H. Would you say, the more we appreciate the great thought of the Father, the more ready we shall be to move on into the appreciation of this great thought of God?

S.McC. We shall never know God, as God, rightly, if we do not appreciate the thought of the way in which He is presented in the Father.

W.M.B. Does the thought of the Father seeking, bring out the peculiar grace of this dispensation?

S.McC. It does. That is the whole point in the presentation of the Father in this way; it is God known in grace, and the seeking is very affecting in that way. We think of seeking in Luke 15, in regard to man's need, eventuating in God's pleasure of course; but the grace of it here, "seeks such" to worship, is affecting as you think of it.

J.A.P. In the New Testament you get the thought of God the Father, or God our Father, or God and Father, more than forty times; is that to stress what you have been saying, that we worship Him in a known relationship? That occurs constantly in the epistles.

S.McC. Yes. We never have to do with God outside of a known relationship. We are always in sonship. If we think of manhood in the final stage of the service of God, it is manhood in sonship. It always is so; but the God who has come into the relationships we have been speaking

about, is the God of whom Scripture says, "For of him, and through him, and for him are all things: to him be glory for ever" (Romans 11:36). That is, God as God is the supreme end in the service of God -- the worship of God.

C.H. That is, we do not limit God to any name or position He has taken?

S.McC. Well, that is the point. God must be greater than any relation He enters into or upon.

A.M.P. But we may worship God as inscrutable, may we not?

S.McC. Well, in the sense of the doxologies, yes.

A.M.P. And in our hymn book we sing, 'O how inscrutable, Yea, how unsearchable' (Hymn 48).

S.McC. Yes, exactly. Paul in 1 Timothy 6:15, 16 utters such a doxology, and there are other doxologies that bear upon that.

A.M.P. Although our relationship remains a known one, and we are sons in relation to the Father, yet we may reach out in our worship to the God who is inscrutable?

S.McC. Well, it is the God who is inscrutable that has come within our range in Christ, you see. What we have to be careful of is that we do not make the terms of the economy applicable to abstract deity, and make them descriptive of the inscrutable form of God, because they are not.

N.K.M. Why is the Lord stressing not only "in spirit" but in "truth" also -- "must worship him in spirit and truth"?

S.McC. Well, it is to bring in the side of what is spiritual as opposed to what is material. And then the necessity for truth -- that involves adjustment. The truth

has come in in Christ. Christ is the truth, and the Spirit is the truth. The truth has to do with the asserting of what is in another, and Christ asserts what is true in regard to God and in regard to man, so that He is said to be the truth. He is the truth objectively, as the Spirit is the truth subjectively in the saints here according to 1 John 5:6.

J.S.E. Is it right to say that that touch from the Lord to the woman has such force to her that she can afford to leave her waterpot? All that comes in between those points is to do with the disciples, is it not?

S.McC. Well, exactly.

J.S.E. But is it not helpful to see that the woman is affected by that very word, and she abandons all that she had held in relation to what was material, and goes forward with the power of that impression in her soul?

S.McC. That is it, so that if we had been there it would have been a very active reading after verse 24; but the woman goes on and says, "I know that Messias is coming, who is called Christ; when he comes he will tell us all things. Jesus says to her, I who speak to thee am he". And that is all that we get. The Lord leaves her with that impression, and that impression remains with her -- "God is a spirit". Without opening up all that is involved, He just left it upon her mind and her spirit, "God is a spirit; and they who worship him must worship him in spirit and truth".

THE KNOWLEDGE OF DIVINE PERSONS AND THINGS (3)

S McCallum

John 6:66 - 71; John 8:31 - 59; John 9:24 - 34

S.McC. The subject that is before us is the knowledge of divine Persons and divine things. We come now to a very solemn and sobering section of John's gospel, but a section in which knowledge shines, both in Peter and in the man of John 9, and in the Lord Himself when He speaks in chapter 8, as in conflict with the Jews. There is the drift of unbelief in chapter 6, but in the midst of it, and over against it, we have the wonderful feature of knowledge in Peter, "We have believed and known that thou art the holy one of God". Then in chapter 8 the Lord alludes to knowing the truth and the truth setting us free. Then there is the stress on the greatness of His Person in that section -- the great "I am", as He refers to Himself, "Before Abraham was, I am". Then the delightful setting in John 9 of the subject of the works of God -- the blind man, and the remarkable way in which knowledge appears in him, which may yield help for us. "He answered therefore, If he is sinful I know not. One thing I know, that, being blind before, now I see". He could speak of one thing he knew, anyway, and he held to that whatever they did to encroach upon his testimony, and to turn him from the truth. He held to what he did know, and the Lord comes in as he is cast out and imparts further knowledge to him. So as we begin with this section in John 6 we should

see the way the work of God is appearing among the saints, and also, especially as John would have us from beginning to end, we should keep before us the glory of the Person of Christ. It is important, I think, that the Spirit of God uses John to keep us constantly reminded of who the Person is: that He is God, and nothing less than God. He begins with that, and there is a person at the end saying, "My Lord and my God" (John 20:28). We may say that is on a lower platform, but nevertheless it is coming out of the mouth of a man who is affected by the Person who is before him. So that John the evangelist would impress our minds with the glory of the Person of Christ: that He is never anything less than God, wherever we see Him, in whatever circumstances we view Him. He is never anything less than God, as to His Person.

A.P.B. Does that give a peculiar importance and lustre to all that He says and does, because it is God who is doing it and saying it?

S.McC. John would remind us in that way of the greatness of the Person, who is not bounded by this dispensation, but who is outside of all dispensation -- the I AM. In John 6 He is before us in the blessedness of His manhood, as Peter says, and as has often been noted. It is not only a question of revelation here, it is a question of progressive knowledge -- what Peter arrived at, representing no doubt what there is in the body of the disciples, "we have believed and known that thou art the holy one of God".

E.J.H. Is the personality of the "we" having believed and known, standing over against the unique and distinctive personality of "thou art"?

S.McC. Yes, John says, "Jesus therefore said to the twelve, Will ye also go away?" How much was bound up in these words. How the Lord values what there is in the twelve. It brings out what there was generally among them. And I think one thing that impresses one, in moving around amongst the saints, is what there is in the body of the saints.

A.J.G. Does this statement of Peter's involve that they have apprehended in Christ the perfect answer in manhood to all that God looks for -- "the holy one of God"?

S.McC. That is it. "We have believed and known that thou art the holy one of God". God is holy, and we get an answer in Christ in manhood to what God is in that way -- the holy One of God. It has been said by Mr. Darby⁺ that when the Father is mentioned in John it has to do with the expression of grace, but when God is mentioned it has to do with what He is, in holiness, and man in responsibility. So that the holy One of God would be a perfect answer on the responsible side in Man in Christ, to God's great thought.

A.J.G. The woman of Shunem said, "I perceive that this is a holy man of God, who passes by us continually" (2 Kings 4:9) but now there is the holy One of God.

S.McC. That is excellent -- the contrast in that way to what we have there, a holy man of God, and now the holy one of God. He is unique in that way.

W.B.H. Is there a suggestion of that in Proverbs 9:10, and Proverbs 30:3, "The knowledge of the Holy"?

⁺ J.N.D., Collected Writings, Volume 25, page 192

S.McC. Well, it is interesting how that expression comes up in Proverbs, because the knowledge of the Holy would call for holiness on our side, and I think the apprehension of the holy One of God would have a progenitive bearing on us as to holiness on our side.

P.H.H. Do you mind saying a little about the name which comes a few times earlier in the chapter, "Son of man"? It says, for instance, in verse 62, "If then ye see the Son of man ascending up where he was before;" and then earlier than that, in verse 53, "Unless ye shall have eaten the flesh of the Son of man, and drunk his blood", and so on. Would you mind saying a little as to the bearing of that on this part of the teaching?

S.McC. Well, I think what you now refer to is very interesting, because the lines are becoming defined as to Judaism. Chapter 6, in its teaching, bears particularly on what is beyond the confines of Judaism. The Lord repeatedly refers to the world, as He says in verse 51, "the bread withal which I shall give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world". Then, "If then ye see the Son of man ascending up where he was before". The title "the Son of man" refers to His universal rights, and the universal side is before us in the teaching in John 6. It is interesting that it precedes John 7, where, as Mr. Raven taught us, the change of dispensation comes typically on to our view. ⁺ In the same way Stephen, at the great transitional point in the change over, stresses the Son of man; his vision is filled with the Son of man in glory.

⁺ F.E.R., N.S., Volume 1, page 3

P.H.H. Is it remarkable that in speaking to Nicodemus in chapter 3 the Lord says, as was quoted yesterday, what pertains to His Person as Son of man? "No one has gone up into heaven, save he who came down out of heaven, the Son of man who is in heaven". Is it remarkable that He should have said that to one who was the teacher of Israel?

S.McC. It is. And is it not remarkable that He says this again in verse 62 to those who were not understanding the teaching? Now this is to be noted. He says it to Nicodemus in chapter 3, and He is saying it again to those that do not understand the teaching here. They are finding it hard. They say, "This word is hard; who can hear it?" It was not even a question of who can believe it; it is a question of "who can hear it". That is, they were not prepared to give it an entrance, and the Lord says, "Does this offend you? If then ye see the Son of man ascending up where he was before?" It is, as we were saying at the outset, the way that our attention is constantly focused on the greatness of this Person, that He is nothing less than God, wherever we view Him. Even though He may be in the condition of manhood before us, we are always reminded of the greatness of who He is personally.

J.S.E. Is it right that when the Lord is speaking to His enemies in this gospel, He is very emphatic as to His place in the Deity, but when He has His own around Him He speaks more intimately in relation to His place in manhood?

S.McC. Well, that is interesting, especially as we shall see as we come into this section which involves conflict. The Lord is asserting His own Personality, asserting His Deity, and John's ministry, bearing on the last days, would

impress us with that. In the church councils of old, centuries ago, there was an attempt to protect the truth by the formulation of creeds, but it led into error, and was derogatory to the glory of His Person in that they put His sonship back into eternity, into the pre-incarnate conditions of Deity.

J.S.E. Yes. Was that because there was a lack of understanding that "the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God" (1 Corinthians 2:14)? Has it not always been damaging to try and adapt the truth to the mind of man naturally? Whereas this gospel shows that it is impossible for the mind to take it in, so that the opening of the narrative emphasises that the writer and those with him understood and valued the deity of Christ. "The Word was God", but the insistence on the term "I am" is invariably made by the Lord to His enemies, is it not? And is not that where our protection lies?

S.McC. It is, because the Spirit of God, in superintending the writing of this gospel, has in mind to protect that glorious Person who has come so low, who has entered into such a subordinate position involving relative inferiority. The Spirit of God protects the glory and greatness of His Person at every turn throughout the gospel.

A.Hn. Do you think that the speaking of the Lord in this gospel is calculated to impress our hearts with who He is? I was thinking of the remarkable passage in chapter 5: 18, where He has been speaking to His enemies, the Jews, and they sought to kill Him, because "he had … said that God was his own Father, making himself equal with God". I wondered whether the ministry thus, as John records it,

has in mind to impress our hearts with the greatness of the Person of Christ.

S.McC. Well, it is important that we should see that the greatness of the Person of Christ is to be maintained. Therefore, care is needed lest we should advance anything that is derogatory to the Person of Christ, because we have to maintain in our hearts and in our thoughts the greatness of who He is -- not only who He was, but who He is. He is unchanged in His Person, and wherever we view Him His Person is the same.

W.M.B. Is that borne out by Romans 9:5 -- the reference to His coming in flesh, and then immediately guarding it, "who is over all, God blessed for ever"?

S.McC. Yes, it is; that is one of the great passages that guards the truth as to the Person of Christ, lest in thinking of the economy and the lowly subordinate place He has come into in the economy, we should think less of Him. The Spirit of God desires to guard it in our minds, lest we should have any thought that He is any other than God.

W.J.B. And yet at the same time to hold to the genuineness of His humanity.

S.McC. John insists on that, and so it comes out in John 8:40, "but now ye seek to kill me, a man who has spoken the truth to you". And as was referred to earlier, "the holy one of God", a beautiful allusion to His manhood, especially on the priestly side -- what is due to God, because Aaron, as we have often heard, would be suggested as a type of this aspect of Christ.

P.J.B. Would it be right to suggest that the disciples would speak together of Him, so that Peter, when he says, "we have believed and known", was able to speak

emphatically because together they had arrived at this conclusion that He was who He was?

S.McC. Yes, it is a tribute to their contemplation of the Person -- to their observation of Him -- what they had gathered up while others were disaffected in relation to the teaching. Here were ones that were wondrously affected, so that Peter says, "we have believed and known". Not 'we have known and believed', but "we have believed" -- the activity of faith which leads us into this knowledge -- "and known that thou art the holy one of God".

E.J.H. Would you say that in a general way the saints today line themselves up with Peter in regard to this very word?

S.McC. I would say, from practical observation, that in the body of the saints there is a great desire to protect the truth as to the Person of Christ, and it is preserved, we might say, in a living way in the assembly, over against the error embodied in dead creeds.

J.S.E. Confirming what you say as to 'the body of the saints', would not the fact that the apostles are not referred to as such in this narrative help us to see what is to be expected in the last days -- that the truth is held in the body of the saints affectionately by the Spirit. And that ministry must come on this line of holiness and affection in the understanding of Christ in the two ways you are suggesting?

S.McC. Well, I am sure that is so, and I think we should see the importance of it at this juncture, and then the salutary word the Lord gives over against the attractiveness of progressive knowledge in Peter. John says in verse 70, that "Jesus answered them". That is, the

Lord takes up Peter's "we" and it says, "Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you the twelve? and of you one is a devil". Now this is a very humbling and searching matter, and it behoves us to be lowly and sober, and ready to be searched in the presence of the truth as the Lord is bringing it forward here. We have not only progressive belief in Peter, and in the twelve in this chapter, but progressive unbelief in those who go away into the drift of apostasy, the full result being seen in Judas.

P.H.H. In regard to the expression "believed and known", do you think that applies in general to the working of the truth amongst us? Here it is applied specifically to the Person of Christ, but would you think it also applies to the ministry of the truth, and the way it is taken on and finds place in the souls of the saints?

S.McC. I am sure it does -- and it shows the importance of subjection. Mr. Stoney stressed that the great basis of spiritual prosperity in our souls was in being subject to the truth, as it comes to us. That is a great matter. I was interested the other day in the word that God gave to Ezekiel. He says in Ezekiel 3:10, "Son of man, all my words which I shall speak unto thee, receive in thy heart, and hear with thine ears". Now we would have reversed that; we would have said, 'Hear with thine ears, and receive in thy heart', but God puts the 'receiving in thy heart' first, and then 'hear with thine ears', showing the importance of the activity of faith and the subjective bearing of faith.

A.W.G.T. It is a Berean feature, I suppose.

S.McC. It is. We are inclined to treat faith wholly in an objective way, whereas we are to see the subjective bearing of faith.

G.A.L. It says in Acts 16:14 of Lydia, "whose heart the Lord opened to attend to the things spoken by Paul".

S.McC. Very good, showing how the heart was the immediate subject of the operation to make way for all that was coming in through Paul's ministry -- a personal operation of the Lord. One has thought recently that we often speak of the Spirit as augmenting the service of Christ, but it is interesting to see how the Lord augments the service of the Spirit. The Spirit is the great power for understanding the truth -- for understanding spiritual and divine knowledge. That is a particular feature of His glory. He is the power for apprehension and for knowledge in us. But when we come to the Pauline side, the Lord is brought into it. Paul says to Timothy, "Think of what I say, for the Lord will give thee understanding in all things" (2 Timothy 2:7). Not the Spirit, but the Lord will give thee understanding. And in Acts 16, the Lord opened the heart of Lydia, "whose heart the Lord opened" -- not the Spirit, but the Lord -- "to attend to the things spoken by Paul".

J.S.E. Is that to keep us balanced in our minds as to the equality both of the Lord and the Spirit in an operational setting?

S.McC. Yes, exactly; and how closely they are related and linked in operations in the mediatorial economy, as in 2 Corinthians 3:17, where it is difficult to discern where one service finishes and the other commences, and who it is that is referred to. "Now the Lord is the Spirit, but where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty".

F.C.H. You have the same feature in the early part of Acts 16. After two references to the Spirit, it is "concluding that the Lord had called us to announce to them the glad tidings".

S.McC. Yes. It is interesting to see how divine Persons are operating together in relation to one another in these matters.

E.J.B. Does the Father come into it too in John 6:45, "They shall be all taught of God. Every one that has heard from the Father himself, and has learned of him"?

S.McC. There is a beautiful touch in this chapter in that way as to the Father -- as the Lord again says in verse 65, "And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no one can come to me unless it be given to him from the Father". We want to know the glory of this Person more in the economy, "the Father" -- God as known in this Person, how He is operating. The Father is God, the Spirit is God, and the Son is God -- let us never think anything different. God is One, involving three Persons, and yet there is the wondrous grace of the economy. "To us there is one God, the Father, of whom all things, and we for him" (1 Corinthians 8:6) -- God coming in in that way in a system of affections to impress our hearts with what He is. God is love.

P.H.H. I suppose you would hesitate a little, would you, to apply the word Mediator, or mediatorial, to the Father. Christ is called the Mediator, and we can see that the Spirit acts mediatorially. Would you go further than that and apply the term mediatorial to the Father?

S.McC. The Father has come within our range in the mediatorial economy. The Lord Himself says in John 5:17, "My Father worketh hitherto and I work", the working

involving the mediatorial side, but the mediatorial position is set out in the Lord, and in the Spirit, the Father remaining in the position of Godhead.

A.Hn. In that connection, how far do you think Colossians 1:12 would go? There it says, "giving thanks to the Father, who has made us fit for sharing the portion of the saints in light".

S.McC. What have you in mind as to how far it would go?

A.Hn. Well, I was thinking of the question as to mediatorial operations of the Father.

S.McC. Well, it is one thing to see the Father operating, and what He is operating in relation to; but, rightly speaking, while He comes within our range in the mediatorial system, and in mediatorial operations, the Father is presented to us as God in the economy. "To us there is one God, the Father ... and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him" (1 Corinthians 8:6). So that the mediatorial side is rightly linked with the Lord Jesus, and with the Holy Spirit.

J.S.E. Do we not have to lay hold of this, that the supremacy marking the Father's place in the economy in no sense hinders His delight to serve the saints?

S.McC. No, it does not. We see how He is operating in this gospel, as we have already been referring to it, operating in affecting souls. But the mediatorial position is seen in the Lord pre-eminently, and the Spirit is acting in accord with that. We could not say the Spirit is the Mediator. Scripture says, "the mediator of God and men one, the man Christ Jesus" (1 Timothy 2:5).

C.H. Is that not linked up with the suggestion that the Lord has lordship in a sense in a dual way. That is, He had not only lordship as in Godhead, but He is made Lord officially?

S.McC. It is important that we should see the way it is referred to in 1 Corinthians 8:6. It says, "yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom all things, and we for him". Now while God is presented in the Father in the economy, we must not use that passage to eliminate the Lord and the Spirit from the thought of Godhead, because Their place in Godhead abstractly has always to be maintained. While They have come into a subordinate position; Their place in Godhead is always maintained in our minds abstractly, and so it says, "One God, the Father, of whom all things, and we for him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him". Alluding to His official place, one Lord, He is the one who is made Lord. It does not mean to say that we cannot refer to the Spirit as Lord, or the Father as Lord, because James refers to the Father as Lord, but "one Lord, Jesus Christ" is an allusion to His official place in the economy.

J.S.E. And the Lord Jesus addresses the Father as Lord, does He not (Matthew 11:25)?

S.McC. Yes, exactly.

P.H.H. This scripture in 1 Corinthians 8 is not a full description of the economy, is it?

S.McC. Because the Spirit is not brought into it?

P.H.H. Yes. But is it Paul's full answer to the gods many, and lords many in the pagan world?

S.McC. Well, it is; and I think it is important to see that while the Spirit is not formally mentioned in 1 Corinthians 8,

He is involved in what is said. The fact that He is not formally mentioned does not mean to say that He is excluded; faith would understand His place in relation to the economy as stated.

W.M.B. In Ephesians 4:4 - 6 we have perhaps a somewhat similar statement, and each of the three Persons is mentioned, and again the Father is spoken of as supreme in the economy, would you say that?

S.McC. Yes, "One God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in us all". It is an allusion to the particular place of supremacy that the Father has in the economy; and to God, the Supreme Being, who is to be known and worshipped, in coming within our range as He has, in such an economy. His entering into that relation, has in mind to affect our hearts and souls through that relation, in regard of what He is in all His majesty and supremacy.

J.A.P. You are speaking of how we are affected through the relation of 'Father'?

S.McC. Yes, it is a relation that God has entered upon, a Name that He has taken, and the God who has entered into that relation must be greater than the relation He enters upon. We cannot limit Him to any relation that He enters upon, because He is God; He would not be God if we could.

J.S.E. Does the verse in Ephesians 2:18 compress in a few words what you are saying? "For through him we have both access by one Spirit to the Father". Are not the prepositions 'through' and 'by' in some sense mediatorial in each case?

S.McC. Well, it does, particularly setting out the mediatorial economy, that through Him we have both access by one Spirit to the Father.

A.W.G.T. I should like to ask whether, not-withstanding the fact that the Father is supreme in the economy, nevertheless certain things are predicated of Him that He does? He draws to Christ, and makes us fit for sharing the portion of the saints in light, so in a certain sense could you say that He comes into the operational side?

S.McC. Oh yes. The Father is viewed as operating. The Father is the great supreme Governor of the universe. The Lord says, "I praise thee, Father, Lord of the heaven and of the earth" (Matthew 11:25).

F.W.K. In 1 Corinthians 12:6, we have "the same God who operates all things in all". Is that the same thought?

S.McC. Yes, that is God; it is God that is referred to. And it is interesting how that chapter is filled with the thought of the Spirit -- what the Spirit does. So that we are always to keep in mind the necessity for being sober, and guarded in referring to the economy, lest we should in any way attempt to put limits on divine Persons. They have come within our range, as They have, and our souls adore Them in the light of Their movements, and the positions that They have taken. But we cannot limit Them to positions that They have taken, while we are governed by the light of what They are in these positions.

J.S.E. Is that emphasised in this verse in chapter 6 as to the Son of man ascending up where He was before?

Does that not show that He goes up in the right of His own Person?

S.McC. Well, it does, and it is important that the glory of each Person should be preserved with us. One has heard of a statement only yesterday, which I think needs to be guarded, because I believe it is derogatory to the Person of Christ -- that Christ is not God to us. Christ is God to us. While it says in 1 Corinthians 8, "to us there is one God, the Father", that does not mean to eliminate from our minds that Christ is God to us. Who is He God to, if He is not God to us? He is not God to the Father, or God to the Spirit. When John says, "He is the true God and eternal life" (1 John 5:20) he is alluding to what He is to the saints.

E.J.H. Would you therefore support the words that are current amongst us, and have been for many years, that He never ceased to be what He was, on account of what He became?

S.McC. Well, exactly, that is the truth, as stated in that letter of Mr. Raven's on the person of Christ. ⁺ We all do well to go over it carefully and read it. We should be helped as to the greatness of the Person -- as to the distinctiveness of His Deity, and the distinctiveness of His humanity. It came up in the conflict that raged over the matter of whether there was the union in Him of God and Man.

G.A.L. In Daniel 7 the Son of man is identified with the Ancient of days, is he not?

⁺ F.E.R., N.S., Volume 3, page 268

S.McC. He is -- a remarkable expression in Daniel, reminding us of the greatness of the Person. One would commend to the brethren the Scriptures in regard to this matter as to Christ's deity. We should be careful lest we make any remarks that would be derogatory to the greatness of His Person, as to who He is, for He is always God; He never ceases to be God.

A.Hn. I think you remarked elsewhere, very helpfully, that personally He is God and His condition is Man.

S.McC. Yes. I was repeating the words of Mr. Raven (See letter referred to above).

C.H. Referring to Mr. Raven again: in his lifetime brethren were saying that we could not worship the Lord Jesus because He was Man. The way he met that was by saying that He had lordship in his own right and therefore had a right to be worshipped.

S.McC. Well, that came up years ago and had to be met -- that we could not worship the Lord as Man. That results from a misapprehension as to His Person. He is the same wherever we view Him, unchanged and unchangeable in His Person.

A.P.B. Is it noteworthy that both Paul and Peter allude to the Lord Jesus as "our … God and Saviour" (Titus 2:13; 2 Peter 1:1)?

S.McC. It is, and that is an answer to this remark that is gaining currency amongst the brethren, which is not right, that Scripture does not say the Son is God to us, because He is God to the saints.

W.S.S. So the passage in 1 Corinthians 12:4 - 6 says, "there are distinctions of gifts, but the same Spirit; and there are distinctions of services, and the same Lord; and

there are distinctions of operations, but the same God who operates". It is God operating, is it not?

S.McC. Showing the assertion of Deity in the Spirit. You see, while the economy is presented to us in the way in which it is in 1 Corinthians 8, that God is presented to us in the Father -- Deity is presented to us in the Father -- we must never forget the balance of the Scripture that fully asserts Deity in the Spirit and Deity in the Son.

W.S.S. I think it was Mr. Darby who pointed out the importance of what is stated in those verses in 1 Corinthians 12the gifts of the Spirit, and the Lord over the services, but the same God operating, God operating whether in the Lord or the Spirit.

S.McC. That is it. So that we are to be reminded that, behind the economy, and behind the Trinity in Their operations in the economy, lies this great thought of the Being to be known and adored and worshipped -- God -- the beginning; and -- God -- the supreme end of all things.

W.S.S. Do you not think what you are now saying is being held, to use your earlier expression, in the body of the saints more than it has ever been held?

S.McC. Well, it is, but doubts have been sown in some minds as to whether Mr. Taylor ever countenanced the speaking to God in the light of the three Persons. It was one of his greatest joys in recent years to speak to God in that way, embracing the three Persons. I think it is remarkable, if one might refer to it, always keeping in mind the full value of the Scriptures, and the importance of our minds being garrisoned by the Scriptures in these matters, that in 1935, on July 9th, in London, we had that

unique address on the present position of the testimony. ⁺ In that address Mr. Taylor alludes to God -- not the Father -- as the final terminus in the service. One month later, in Eastleigh, Hants, on August 9th, in a reading, the truth was fully gone into, and I think the brethren do well to read the ministry referred to, carefully and prayerfully, and see how the truth is set out according to the Scriptures in that address and in that reading. ⁺⁺

P.H.H. In relation to what was remarked about 'being', I was thinking of one of Mr Darby's footnotes to Hebrews 1:3: "Who being the effulgence of his glory and the expression of his substance". Footnote c says, 'Clearly "substance", "essential being", not "person". It is of God, not of the Father'. Now is it in your mind that the greatness of the Being of the one great eternal God is to permeate all that we are saying about divine Persons?

S.McC. Yes, always. Not that we can say much about it, but the blessed Spirit, the power for knowledge and apprehension, affords us in a holy and sober way a certain amount of latitude in thinking of God, so infinite in His majesty, in His Being as He is, yet coming within the range of creature mind and understanding, to affect our minds and hearts in regard to Himself. We are reminded in the Scriptures that as far back as we can go, "in the beginning" (John 1:1), God was there, the great Being to whom we are alluding, involving all three Persons. Their personality distinct, even there, we are never to forget that. One Being, but yet the personality of each as revealed and

⁺ J.T., N.S., Volume 13, page 267

⁺⁺ J.T., N.S., Volume 68, page 94

distinguished in the economy is seen there. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God". The preposition 'with' in the Greek denoting communicative associations, signifying distinct personality in those conditions. What names or forms the relationships took we cannot say -- the form of God is not revealed, but it is important that we should see that one distinct and glorious divine Being in majesty is God -- the Deity -- yet three Persons, distinct in Their Personalities.

A.J.G. I suppose the expression "the eternal Spirit" (Hebrews 9:14) would help as to the separate Personality of the Spirit. In the economy He takes the name, or rather in the name of God in the economy, He is the Holy Spirit, because it has reference to man, but personally He is the eternal Spirit. Would that be right?

S.McC. Exactly. That helps in regard to what we have been saying as to distinct personality.

J.A.P. Would you say a word about "my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God" (John 20:17) in regard to the way you are speaking now?

S.McC. Well, we are going ahead of our subject, but that passage, if we might just allude to it in passing, shows what we have been saying. It is what we have learned and been taught: that God, not the Father, is the ultimate in assembly service in the worship of God; it is God as God. He has entered into that wondrous relation conveyed in the name Father, so expressive of grace, that we might know Him in the majesty of His being as He is, as God.

J.A.P. And then you would include the Son and the Spirit in your thought of God?

S.McC. Yes. When we speak of God, as God, there is light in our minds as to all three Persons, because abstractly neither the Son nor the Spirit have left Deity.

A.J.G. Hence in that verse which was referred to, "through him [Christ] we have both access by one Spirit to the Father" (Ephesians 2:18 ) while the access is to the Father, you are in the presence of the operations of the whole Godhead, are you not?

S.McC. That is it, and that is what we are to keep in our minds, and also that it is the same in eternal conditions. It says in 1 Corinthians 15:28, "then the Son also himself shall be placed in subjection". We are to be reminded of what lies behind all that, what is inscrutable to us, that we cannot enter upon, but reminding us of the majesty of the Being with whom we have to do, and who is to be all in all in that scene.

F.C.H. Are these operations connected with the Father in this chapter still proceeding?

S.McC. Well, they are, and I think if we are to have the knowledge of John's God, as we were referring to it, we need to see the way that John the evangelist presents God as "the Father". We need to know the way that John refers to the Person of the Father, so that we may be helped in worshipping God.

P.H.H. Do you think that the way the Lord Jesus refers to the Father in John, and how John the writer refers to the Father from the beginning of the gospel, is to build up our minds and affections in regard of that great Person, so that we might be set free to go to the length which is in mind in the gospel?

S.McC. Yes, I think so, because I think the great bearing of the knowledge of the Father is to help us to know God, that is, what He is in the fullest sense, in all His supremacy and majesty as the Being to be adored and worshipped.

P.H.H. And does that setting liberate us in love and restfulness, so that we might be free, so to speak, to explore the divine domain as far as it is made known to us?

S.McC. That is the point exactly, all bearing on the activities of the Father and the Son and the Spirit. We have thus an economy devised by divine love, in which divine affections are seen, so that we should know God according to what He is -- as it is said "God is love" (1 John 4:8) and that is how we come to know Him. The Trinity has always existed in Oneness, and the economy has been devised by divine love, in order that divine affections might be known, and it is in this way that we are brought to know God, that we have come to God, the Judge of all. That involves God in His supremacy.

F.C.H. Would you say a word as to verse 46, "Not that anyone has seen the Father, except he who is of God, he has seen the Father"?

S.McC. Well, it alludes to what we were saying, that the Father has remained in the inscrutability of Deity. He has not come into a form such as we see in the Lord Jesus in manhood, but the Lord revealed the Father as He says Himself. We are dependent on the Lord as to our knowledge of the Father.

A.H.G. Referring back to the way the Lord is presented in the gospel of John, would you say that all He

is in His own Person is involved in the title "the Son of God"?

S.McC. Well, I would rather say in the title "the Son". "The Son of God" is what He is more as representative of God. "The Son" is the appellation that particularly alludes to His personal greatness and deity.

G.A.L. Does not chapter 5 show that the Son is both Son of God and Son of man?

S.McC. Well, exactly, so that the Person is in mind.

A.H.G. What would be the particular bearing of believing on the Son of God? That seems to be the great objective in this gospel, "these are written that ye may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God" (John 20:31), and then your scripture in chapter 9 brings us to that point.

S.McC. Well, I think that is an important feature of the teaching, because in the Son of God the heart of God is brought near. In "the Word" we have the full unfolding of the mind of God; in "the Son of God" we have the heart of God brought near, because He expresses to us in a unique way divine love.

A.J.G. Does it also convey the thought of supreme dignity in manhood?

S.McC. It does. As representing God He has come in on God's side; as Son of man He has come in on man's side; but as Son of God He has come in on God's side, to make God known.

G.A.L. Does it not seem as though the title "the Christ" is the apostolic title for the Son of man? I mean, in Ephesians 1, for instance, where all things are put under His feet, it is the Christ, is it not, and I was thinking of the

scripture just quoted, "That ye may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God", that it compasses both glories.

S.McC. Are you alluding to the fact that we do not get the Son of man in the epistles?

G.A.L. Yes.

S.McC. It is very interesting that the Son of man is so much mentioned in the gospels and is mentioned in the Acts, and we have a reference which bears on it in Hebrews, but generally the title is not employed in the epistles. I think "the Christ" represents, as you say, something on that line, that He is the answer to every human hope. Whether it be in man generally, or whether it be in Israel, in regard to the whole scope of prophecy; the Christ is the answer to every human hope in the gentile world and in Israel.

J.S.E. Is that perhaps why Stephen is the only human being who employs the term Son of man, and he does it at the closing down of a limited arena, and at the point of opening up an unlimited arena?

S.McC. Yes, exactly. You mean, in that sense, the Son of man is standing linked with the widest and most extended range of things in regard of divine operations?

J.S.E. I wondered if that was why the Spirit impelled Stephen to use that term at that juncture.

S.McC. Yes, I am sure it is, because it is a transitional point. The metropolis is being transferred to heaven; it had long been here in Jerusalem, but it is being transferred to heaven, and heaven becomes the great centre of the vast extended operations involving the gentile world where the assembly is to come peculiarly into view in Paul's ministry.

P.H.H. It is remarkable what you are saying about the term "the Christ", and what Mr. L. has raised. In the end of Ephesians 1 the expression is used which belongs to the realm of the Son of man, does it not, "has put all things under his feet"? But I understand you to say that it is in the setting of the Christ. Is it as the Head of the assembly?

S.McC. Yes, the anointed man -- the Christ. Ephesians makes a good deal of "the Christ" -- what He is as anointed and filling out the official position. Everything is headed up in the Christ in the body of that first chapter. It says in regard to what God purposes in Himself, "for the administration of the fulness of times; to head up all things in the Christ" (Ephesians 1:10). That involves the same thing as the all things being put under the Son of man.

P.H.H. So later, "he wrought in the Christ in raising him from among the dead" (Ephesians 1:20). Then, He "has put all things under his feet" -- so that this great sphere where everything is subordinated to the Son of man is now to be viewed relative to Christ and the assembly, and the assembly shares with Him in it?

S.McC. That is it. So that John's ministry in the epistle makes the difference between the Son of God and the Christ, that Jesus is the Christ. In his epistle he does not bring in the Son of man, but alludes to the Christ -- which is more the official title, the One who has come in as the answer to every hope both in regard of the race and also in regard to Israel.

A.W.G.T. Do you want to go on to the next scripture?

S.McC. Well, we might refer to how the man in John 9 comes to the knowledge of the Son of God. We are to see how knowledge comes to him. The Jews, I suppose,

would rule him out, indeed they did, "They railed at him, and said, Thou art his disciple, but we are disciples of Moses". And then later down, verse 34, "They answered and said to him, Thou hast been wholly born in sins, and thou teachest us?" That is, they are occupied with the man in an external way. They do not see the mystery linked with the works of God in the man, and the knowledge that he has acquired in regard to this Person that had come into his view.

A.H.G. Would you say a word as to the word of Paul in Ephesians, "Until we all arrive at the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God" (Ephesians 4:13)?

S.McC. Well, do you not think that that is a prime matter -- the knowledge of the Son of God? The fact that all the ministry is directed to that end shows what a prime matter it is; it is bound up with the full-grown man and the measure of the stature of the fulness of the Christ.

E.J.H. Is not the work remarkable in the man's soul, in that he had never seen the Lord with his natural sight. Yet according to the perfection of the work in him, all this has been built into his soul, so that he is ready for the communication of the title Son of God?

S.McC. Yes, so that we are helped to see the way he arrived at knowledge, the way he was taught through different things, and it is a good example for us as we think of it. He comes under the divine hand, and what progress he makes in knowledge, as this chapter shows, apart from human resources, we might say, apart from external means, he learns well. He reaches the Son of God in his knowledge, who is the centre of another world.

C.D.L. Referring to the matter of the Son involving His Personality, as you were mentioning just now, is it not striking that you have all this reference to the knowledge of the Son of God, but as to the Son, no one knows the Son?

S.McC. As to His Person, quite so. It is well to keep in mind the inscrutability of the Person of Christ, that as to His Person and His abstract place in relation to Deity we do not know. We know how the thought of revelation comes into what He is in manhood, as in Matthew 16 and Galatians 1, but that does not in any sense negate what the Lord says, that "no one knows the Son but the Father" (Matthew 11:27).

J.S.E. Does that not give some emphasis to the Father making use, if I may so say, of His supreme place in the economy to guard the personality of the One who has entered into a mediatorial set of circumstances?

S.McC. It does. You are impressed with how divine Persons and Their glory are guarded. There is also the allusion to the Spirit, in another relation, as to anything that might be said derogatory to Him, how that is guarded. We are reminded thus of the great thought of what is cherubic in the realm of revelation, that which guards the glory of divine Persons.

J.L.F. Would you say a word about the word in Hebrews 1:8, "As to the Son, Thy throne, O God, is to the age of the age"?

S.McC. Well, there is another allusion to the deity of the Son. It alludes to that Person in manhood. While "the Son" refers to His personal greatness, it is not a name or appellation that can be carried back to describe His

relations in pre-incarnate Deity. It is an appellation which bears on Him in manhood, but referring to His personal greatness in manhood.

F.C.H. In Matthew 11 and Luke 10 that statement by the Lord seems to be in the nature of a soliloquy, or a musing, does it not? He is not speaking to the Father, and He is not speaking to His own, is He? But is it not a musing or soliloquy in regard of His own Person, how great it is?

S.McC. Yes. You notice in Scripture that certain things are said in our hearing, at times, which are calculated to impress us with the realm that we are in. Although God has come so near, and divine Persons as distinguished in Their operations in the economy are so near us; the impression is always left on our minds as to what is beyond us.

THE KNOWLEDGE OF DIVINE PERSONS AND THINGS (4)

S McCallum

John 10:1 - 15; John 14:1 - 20

S.McC. John 10, in the portion of it that we have read, brings up the knowledge that is amongst the sheep of Christ in regard to Christ Himself, the Shepherd, and also brings out the thought of His knowledge of them. What the Lord says in verses 14 and 15 is very affecting, "I am the good shepherd; and I know those that are mine, and am known of those that are mine, as the Father knows me and I know the Father". It would seem that the divine standard of knowledge is with the sheep of Christ according to that verse, which should affect us. Then in John 14, the knowledge of divine Persons comes before us in that exalted setting. First the knowledge of the Father -- how important it is in this gospel that we should know the Father, and God as presented in the Father. Then the knowledge of the Holy Spirit, as the Lord says, the world does not see Him nor know Him, "but ye know him", alluding to the disciples, "for he abides with you, and shall be in you". And then His reference to the assembly day, the Spirit's day, and His own place in divine affections -- the perfect state of love that is contemplated in verse 20, "In that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you". A perfect state of love is contemplated, and the wondrous knowledge that is linked

with it. I thought we should consider briefly chapter 10, and then give the major part of the time to chapter 14.

Our place as the sheep of Christ is important -- what we are as marked out in the light of John's ministry in this way: the objects of divine attention, and the peculiar glory of Christ as the Shepherd, the good Shepherd, who lays down His life for the sheep. All this accentuates the holy activities of love, in the mediatorial economy into which God has come. We shall never understand the economy, if we do not understand and appreciate love. The measure of our spirituality can be taken account of by the measure in which we are formed in love. It is not much use talking about spirituality, if we are not formed in love, for the two go together. This chapter accentuates the links in holy love between the sheep and the Shepherd, and the service of holy love on the part of the Shepherd in laying down His life for the sheep.

E.J.H. Is it on that account that the sheep never go astray -- sheep of this kind cannot stray?

S.McC. Yes, that is because John's sheep know Christ. They do not know the voice of a stranger. A remarkable statement that, in regard to John's sheep -- the sheep of Christ; it says, "they know not the voice of strangers" (verse 5) but they know the Shepherd's voice.

A.Hn. Does that link up with what you were referring to this morning, as to the remarkable intuition there is amongst the body of the saints? It says in verse 4, "they know his voice;" and verse 8, "the sheep did not hear them;" and then what you have referred to in verses 14 and 15.

S.McC. Yes, exactly. How all this should affect our souls as to our links in holy spiritual affinity with Christ, as in the figure of the sheep! He Himself in this gospel is referred to as the Lamb of God -- a touching allusion to Christ in holy manhood here.

E.C.L. Does the reference to Mary in John 20:15, 16, illustrate what you are saying, "She, supposing that it was the gardener", did not know Him, but when He said, "Mary", she immediately says, "Rabboni"?

S.McC. Very good -- that exactly illustrates what we have here, and it is also seen in the man in John 9. He says in verses 36 - 38, "who is he, Lord, that I may believe on him? And Jesus said to him, Thou hast both seen him, and he that speaks with thee is he. And he said, I believe, Lord: and he did him homage". A true sheep of Christ, he discerns whose voice it is, "he that speaks with thee is he", and he answers to it. The allusion in John 10:3 is important, "To him the porter opens; and the sheep hear his voice; and he calls his own sheep by name, and leads them out". There is an abstruse allusion to the Holy Spirit in this figure -- the porter; that is, that we are to be conscious that the Spirit will make way for Christ. He is not making way for the false shepherds, those that mount up elsewhere, thieves and robbers. It is remarkable that the Lord speaks in this way. It must have been the Pharisees and what He had to say to them in chapter 9, which drew out this plain speaking of the Lord as to those that mount up elsewhere being thieves and robbers, "but he that enters in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. To him the porter opens". No doubt an allusion to the holy scene

recorded in the synoptic gospels where the Spirit comes upon Him as He enters upon His public ministry.

T.J.G. Is there a link between the thought of the sheep, and the resolving of the question as to who Christ is? I am thinking of the reference to Solomon's porch later on in the chapter, and the Lord then speaking of the sheep as hearing His voice and so on.

S.McC. Well, that is the point -- they know the shepherd. In verses 23 and 24 it says, "Jesus walked in the temple in the porch of Solomon. The Jews therefore surrounded him, and said to him, Until when dost thou hold our soul in suspense? If thou art the Christ, say so to us openly". Think of the innuendo in that; think of what they were implying, that He was secretive about matters, the aspersion they cast upon Him and His ministry, "Until when dost thou hold our soul in suspense?" He was not holding their soul in suspense -- someone else was doing that, but He had taught openly in their synagogues and their temple; but they are casting this aspersion on Him, "If thou art the Christ, say so to us openly". Peter and the others, in whom active faith was operative, discerned who He was -- the Holy One of God, the Christ.

W.S.S. You were speaking of spiritual affinity with Christ. Would that involve our having in our measure the same thoughts and feelings in regard to the sheep as He Himself has?

S.McC. Yes, it would; that is, leadership enters into this section. That is what is in mind in what the Lord says. As we think of what happened in chapter 9, what a wrong lead they would give the man -- they would lead him out of the truth altogether, operating as they were, taking the

place of knowing things, and seeking to lead the man and instruct him. The Lord no doubt has all that in mind when He speaks of the thieves and robbers in this chapter, and then refers to His own leadership, "he calls his own sheep by name, and leads them out".

J.P.H. Would you say something as to verse 2, "he that enters in by the door", then later down, "I am the door"?

S.McC. Well, I think the reference in verse 2 is to the legal way in which the Lord came in. He did not come in in any clandestine way, He came in the right and legal way. He came in by the door, and the porter opened to Him, and that would be what is in mind in verse 2. Whereas in verse 9, "I am the door", is an allusion to what He was in Himself in manhood, in the great mediatorial position. There is only one way to God, and that is through Christ -- there is no other way.

C.H. The first reference stands connected with His entrance into the fold, but the second to His being a door in relation to the flock.

S.McC. That is important to notice as to the fold. There is no fold now; the idea of the fold is terminated. Divine Persons now take the place, if we might so say, of the fold, in that the hand of Christ, the Shepherd, and the hand of the Father are the confines in which the sheep are now held, and kept in the region of eternal life, and they shall never perish.

W.J.B. In referring to verse 3, "To him the porter opens; and the sheep hear his voice;" does that bring in the intimacy between the Lord and the sheep and also the

Spirit and the sheep? It seems as though the Spirit enables us to recognise the Lord's voice.

S.McC. That is right, and it is important that we should recognise His voice. This gospel makes a good deal of the voice of Christ. It is important that we should recognise His voice down here, because a sheep does not exactly allude to what we are in heaven, or in eternity. It alludes to what we are down here in a defenceless position externally, but in a well-defended position spiritually, as in the hand of Christ, the Shepherd, and in the hand of the Father.

E.J.H. The Lord delighted to call attention to the characteristics of the sheep, and on that account He acknowledges them with delight as divine property -- His own.

S.McC. Yes; that is, they are the subjects of the work of God, as is the blind man. It is really a carrying forward of what we have set out in principle in chapter 9: the subject of the works of God. Now we get it in a collective setting here, "there shall be one flock, one shepherd" -- the glory of the work of God in this setting.

P.H.H. Does 'the voice' raise with us some exercise as to the speaker, and the way that he is speaking? We have earlier the voice of the bridegroom, the voice of the Son of God, and now the voice of the Shepherd. All the same Person, but not saying the same things in the same way.

S.McC. No, exactly; so the Shepherd's voice is important in this section, where Jewish opposition has been so strong, and would deflect a man -- the subject of the works of God as we have it in chapter 9. It is important that the Shepherd, the person who has such absolute care

for the sheep -- His voice should be known and that He should be followed.

P.H.H. Does the voice raise with us the exercise as to some living expression at the time? We might be quite clear in terms as to the Person of Christ and so on, but He is speaking in a different way at different times, and different matters are involved.

S.McC. That is one of the things that is particularly on one's mind and heart in this reading. The importance of the voice, and active love as it is seen in this chapter, because, while we may all be concerned to get the terms of the truth rightly, it is important that we should see that we have to do with living Persons. The Lord speaks in this gospel of the living Father; we have to do with living Persons and the matter of divine affections entering into our relations with Them.

A.J.G. The voice of the shepherd is to regulate the movements of all the flock, would you say? One flock, one shepherd, and one voice, you might say, for the whole flock?

S.McC. Very good. You mean that it stresses the thought of unity in regard of the saints -- one voice. I think it is good that we should see that, because in Corinthians Paul speaks of different voices. "There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of undistinguishable sound" (1 Corinthians 14:10). But the great thing is the Shepherd's voice, the voice of this Person, for a divine Person is the Shepherd.

A.W.G.T. Does not that show itself in Paul's ministry? In Acts 9:4 (note g) and in chapters 22 and 26 the voice is referred to in both the genitive and the

accusative; that is it is not only the oral voice, but what is before the mind. Does that help at all?

S.McC. Well, it does. It is interesting, too, how Acts 20 is full of the spirit of John 10, is it not? The love side, the sheep side, the flock of God -- all that is entering into Acts 20, is it not, in relation to Paul's ministry?

A.W.G.T. It is indeed.

A.H.G. And does the voice have a particular bearing in relation to a religious setting of things?

S.McC. Yes, the fold, leading them out of the fold. The fold represents an ordered religious system of things that the Lord has come into, and He calls His own sheep by name and leads them out. When He has put forth all His own, He goes before them, and the sheep follow Him. All this involves the death of Christ, and His burial and resurrection. It is all entering into this chapter in view of the sheep being in all the liberty, and the unity, of the one flock and the one Shepherd.

W.O.S. Would the Lord's remark in verses 14 and 15, "I … am known of those that are mine, as the Father knows me and I know the Father", be calculated to move us in relation to affection as you were saying?

S.McC. It would. It is a remarkable reference that we have here, "I know those that are mine, and am known of those that are mine, as the Father knows me and I know the Father". Think of the way in which the Father knows Christ, and the way in which He knows the Father. The Lord would not be alluding to what we might call the knowledge of Deity here so much; it is "am known of those that are mine, as the Father knows me and I know the Father". He is alluding to what is in the economy and

Their relations together -- He in manhood and sonship, and the Father in that glorious relation as Father to Christ.

T.B.C. Is the voice discerned in the ministry?

S.McC. Well, it may be; the voice of Christ enters into the ministry, and has a unifying effect on the saints -- it is one voice; not half a dozen voices, but one voice, which has in mind the one flock.

A.Hn. You referred to Acts 20. I wonder if I might ask you to say a word as to the Spirit operating in view of shepherding? Paul there seems to have that in mind, "wherein the Holy Spirit has set you as overseers" (verse 28) and immediately he goes on to speak of shepherding. Would the Spirit be operating like that today?

S.McC. Well, He is. The Lord has gone on high. He is now in heaven, functioning in heaven as Man, in relation to the wondrous administration that has been established and inaugurated there. The Spirit has come, and is here, and He is augmenting the shepherd service of Christ in the way that He sets on the care for the flock, as we have it in Acts 20.

G.A.L. You could hardly have the flock, could you, apart from the Lord having gone into death, and having risen, and been glorified, and the Spirit being here. All that would be involved in the flock, would it not?

S.McC. It would. You could hardly have the one flock as we have it now, without the Spirit, because, as we have been taught, this is the point where John's ministry touches Paul's. Paul speaks of the body, John speaks of the flock.

W.S.S. Do we not see shepherd service outstandingly in Mr. Darby's service?

S.McC. Well certainly we do. We would do well to emulate such. One was affected recently, when over in Ireland, as one thought of that beloved servant and the way he denied himself. We talk about the servants and how they labour today, but we do not labour much compared with how they laboured in that day, and they did not have the comforts that we have. Mr. Darby denied himself, so that the true principle of Nazariteship was seen in him even externally, and how he laboured in relation to the poor of the flock.

W.S.S. He laboured to bring the flock together. In Ezekiel 34 it speaks of a cloudy and dark day, in the chapter referring to the recovery of Israel to the mountains of Israel. I have often thought Mr. Darby's service was very much in principle bringing the flock to light in a cloudy and dark day, so to speak.

S.McC. I am sure there is something in that, because Mr. Darby's ministry is in principle apostolic for the days of recovery.

A.Hn. Would you say, by extension, the golden threads of that service have come right down to our day, as we can all say surely we have seen it in beloved Mr. Taylor?

S.McC. Well, certainly there are those that followed. Some of us were at Quemerford the other night, and thinking about F.E.R. in the room in Quemerford (not that we want to go into history, but surely it should affect us the way our leaders have gone before) how he stood up in the midst of conflict, with persons openly contesting the truth; but in love for the flock, for the sheep. Mr. Stoney and Mr. Raven laid down their lives, and Mr. Taylor who

followed. Shepherding involves leadership. It is an important thing that we should see that. Sometimes we speak of shepherding as if it did not involve leadership, but shepherding involves leadership -- the shepherd goes before the sheep.

W.S.S. Leading them into the best pastures?

S.McC. That is it -- the best; the best for the saints, for the sheep.

A.W.G.T. Is it not important that in Ephesians the gift of shepherding and teaching goes together, as if the Lord will not allow His sheep to be taught by anybody but by those that love them? How important that those that lead and have any moral influence at all amongst the saints, should lead, and that we should all be saying the same thing, so that the flock, the sheep, are not divergent in what may be said. They will not be divergent, as they are held in relation to the Shepherd's voice.

J.S.E. Does this allusion to "my sheep" bear on what you were saying about the body of the saints this morning? There is a peculiar touch of responsiveness, is there not, to the voice of the Shepherd, in that the word flock here is not diminutive, as it is in Acts 20 and in Peter's epistle, where the word probably suggests what was in a place, do you think?

S.McC. It is important what you say, and it is a great help to any who have any part in serving the saints. Not that any of us can speak of much, because after all it is very little, but in any part that any may have in serving the saints, it is a great comfort to think of the flock, to think of the sheep who know Christ's voice. You have an

assurance that they will rally to the truth; the work of God in the saints will always rally to the truth.

M.P.S. Does the passage that has been referred to in Ezekiel 34 show that princeliness is a feature of the Shepherd?

S.McC. Yes, it is. That is amplified in the scripture that was alluded to in Ezekiel 34, "David a prince" (verse 24). Princeliness is needed -- those that can go before the sheep in affection for them, not to impress them with their ability to administer, or their ability to speak or to serve, but to impress the sheep with this great thought of divine affection -- the love that went all the way to Calvary, measuring the depths of Calvary's woe that the sheep might be secured.

F.C.H. There is something to enjoy in the statement "on this account the Father loves me". It is not just a statement of fact, is it, but that we should have some sense of His own enjoyment of the Father's love?

S.McC. Well, it is remarkable how knowledge comes in in that way. The Lord in John 17:26, in speaking to the Father, desires "that the love with which thou hast loved me may be in them and I in them". That is the divine standard of love. Here it is the divine standard of knowledge. In 1 Corinthians 13:12, in regard to the day to come, it says, "but then I shall know according as I also have been known". That is alluding to the divine standard of knowledge that we shall arrive at eventually, but it is delightful to think of this standard of knowledge here, that the sheep know Christ, "as the Father knows me and I know the Father".

P.H.H. What is involved in this thought of life? It says, "I am come that they might have life, and might have it abundantly". There is first the voice, and then the suggestion of leading, and going out and finding pasture, and then He says, "I am come that they might have life, and might have it abundantly".

S.McC. Do you not think it would stand over against the whole Jewish system, into which moral death had entered? The Lord has come to lead the sheep into life, "I am come that they might have life, and might have it abundantly". That is peculiar to the saints of this dispensation, the peculiar touch as to life, and the enjoyment of life that the saints have in the assembly abundantly, no doubt alluding to life in its fulness.

A.H.G. Would the knowledge of divine Persons that you have been stressing enter into this matter of life?

S.McC. It does, because life according to John's gospel -- that is, life as a matter of enjoyment -- lies in the knowledge of divine Persons. This is not life potentially; this is life as a sphere, a realm of enjoyment in the knowledge of divine Persons.

W.C. Later on He speaks of giving them life eternal; that is, in connection with preservation, is it not?

S.McC. Very good. The way that He speaks in John 17 causes our attention to be focused on those that were given to Him out of this world; while He had been given authority over all flesh, He gives to them eternal life, as you say, "that as to all thou hast given to him, he should give them life eternal" (John 17:2). Then the chapter begins to enlarge on those that have been given to Christ, indicating the peculiar way in which we come in for life --

such a distinctive heavenly way in this dispensation. But we need to see the importance of the love side in chapter 10, the sacrificial side, the laying down of the life. All this is important in the system of divine affections, because if the saints are to be cared for rightly, and to be served rightly, it can only be in the spirit of Christ, and in the grace of Christ as seen in this relation.

E.J.B. Is that the reason why the word for 'know' in verses 14 and 15 is objective knowledge; it can be taken account of by what it does?

S.McC. That is it. It is there objectively before us.

W.C. Will you say something about what the wolf means? You have it here, and Paul says grievous wolves would come in, not sparing the flock. Have we, if we seek to be shepherds, to have our eyes, as it were, on the enemy at the same time and his movements? The idea of the robber and the wolf, would be how the enemy would rob God, would it not really?

S.McC. A remarkable expression, is it not? In a gospel where the truth is so glorious, and especially in this chapter where He is speaking in accents so tender in regard of the sheep, and His love for them. Why should He use this expression "the wolf seizes them"? It is the ravaging side in relation to the flock, the violent side; a wolf has no conscience, it represents persons who have no conscience at all.

G.A.L. And does not the end of Acts 5 indicate that about the time of our Lord there were such? Gamaliel refers to them.

S.McC. Yes, exactly; in the secession you mean that they led.

G.A.L. Yes, Theudas, for instance.

S.McC. Yes.

A.J.G. Have the activities of the wolf in view the scattering of the flock? He cannot hinder their being carried through eternally, but he would bring about present scattering, so as to discredit the testimony to God which unity affords?

S.McC. I am sure that is very important. The figures of speech employed here as to the alien influences that operate against the sheep are instructive. First, "a thief and a robber" (verse 1). How that speaks to us! It is a reference to persons in responsibility who are thinking about themselves, they are not thinking about God, or about Christ, or about the saints -- they are thinking about themselves. And then the wolf (verse 12) refers to the violent devouring element that seems to be bent on scattering the sheep "seizes them and scatters the sheep".

A.W.G.T. I wondered whether it had not rather a peculiar bearing on us here, since you referred to the historical side a few minutes ago. There was this kind of ravaging, and persons of this sort were used for a terrible attack a hundred years ago, and it centred in this city. Is that not something which should make us careful to lay hold of all the truth we have had brought before us, so that it may be in the body of the saints, as has been said, so that the enemy may not get in?

S.McC. Well, exactly. Think of what obtained there: there were the thief and the robber and the wolf -- the subtle specious, way the enemy wrought through Newton in systematised error to steal the affections of the saints; the clerical principle in Plymouth; the displacement of the

Spirit of God; the over-riding of the shepherd's influence -- all that speaks of the thief and the robber. And then what followed in the scattering of the sheep ought to help us to see the true character of Bethesda in all its terribleness.

P.H.H. Whereas I suppose, what happened in the next chapter (John 11) with Lazarus and Mary and Martha would show the Lord's detailed care for them more inwardly -- it was not exactly an external attack -- to bring them over to the divine side whither the Lord was leading?

S.McC. That is it.

P.H.H. Love is prominent. "He whom thou lovest". Would that follow on your mentioning of love?

S.McC. It does, because it is not the flock that comes up in chapter 11, but the family of God figuratively speaking, in the family at Bethany. The flock represents what the saints are as the objects of Christ's love and care in that way. It does not stress so much the active side with them, or the side of personality. But in the family of God the side of personality is developed, individual personality. We do well to remember that, so that however much we have been merged through the baptism of the Spirit into the wonderful entity called the body of Christ, or merged together as the flock of Christ, we must never forget that on the side of family relationship, personality is developed. Each one in his own distinctiveness in his impression of God and Christ.

E.J.H. Is that borne out by the word "Now Jesus loved Martha, and her sister, and Lazarus"?

S.McC. Yes, it is; that is, each one comes up for honourable reference, so that everyone of us has a part you see -- we cannot rule anybody out in John 11. We might

attempt to rule Martha out, and the standard of knowledge she had. But the Lord is serving her, and He is bringing her in, so that they are all in their place in chapter 12, and all serving in relation to one another. It is not a question of what they are saying, it is what they are and what is being done.

T.J.G. And also in chapter 11 do we not see the triumph of shepherd love, in putting into the mouth of the enemy that the children of God should be gathered together in one, that were scattered abroad?

S.McC. Well, that is a rather remarkable word of Caiaphas, and is a word to keep in mind. It comes into John's gospel; it does not come into Matthew, or Mark or Luke. It is John that gives us that word, and we certainly should think of the children of God that are scattered abroad, and of how we can be a service to them in the true shepherd spirit of Christ.

C.H. Is it not often, too, a question of one dying for the nation when crises arise in localities?

S.McC. Well, it is, and in this matter of the saints coming to the knowledge of the truth, the shepherd goes before the sheep, the sheep are not going to lead the shepherd. It is the shepherd that goes before the sheep and leads them. Leadership is important in divine things. The brethren, of course, will understand I am not speaking of leadership officially, I am speaking of the principle of it. Leadership is leadership; democracy is not according to God; government by the people and for the people is not according to the divine mind. The divine thought is leadership, and leadership involves that there is the going

before, laying down our lives, serving the saints in the spirit and grace of Christ.

P.H.H. Is it remarkable that in the family setting in John 11 this great thought of personality and individual lustre and glory should be alluded to?

S.McC. Well, it is indeed, because we might refer to it as a kind of transitional point. The Lord is about to enter upon the final setting of His teaching, from chapter 13 onward, in regard to the collective position and what divine Persons are to us in the collective position. But we get this wonderful view projected before our minds and hearts of the distinctiveness of the family of God. Each member, each individual one is mentioned, both together and severally, and what a help it would be to recognise that in our localities, do you not think?

P.H.H. Yes, indeed; and I wondered whether it did not proceed into the spiritual and eternal sphere. One reference to the saints would be, as you were saying, the body, or the assembly; but there is the other side in sonship, is there not, where every person stands you might say in his own glory?

S.McC. That is it, so eternity will be filled with the most wonderful persons, myriads of personalities, with distinctive impressions of Christ. We get great diversity, but unity in that diversity, in that it is a living state of things. Now in John 14 we should see primarily this thought of the knowledge of the Father, and then the knowledge of the Spirit, and then the knowledge of Christ in the Father's affections, and we in His, and He in ours. This opens up a rich and refined realm of knowledge. John 14 becomes more wonderful every time you read it, as to

what is projected on to our view by the Lord in His service.

A.H.G. Verse 1 says, "Let not your heart be troubled". Would that be the outcome of the unifying of which you have been speaking?

S.McC. That is it. It begins with that and it ends with that (verse 27). "Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it fear". "Let not your heart be troubled" is the first verse and in between is this restful state contemplated in which the Lord serves in relation to the features of knowledge that are referred to.

C.H. Can you help us at this juncture as to the believing "also on me"? Is it now that they are to get further advance in the knowledge of this One who is leaving them?

S.McC. That is it. It contemplates the Lord as going away. Heretofore He had been with them and among them, so that there was no necessity for active faith in relation to Him. But now that He has gone to heaven, as this would contemplate, the necessity for faith comes in. He says, "ye believe on God, believe also on me". That is He is to become an object of faith to them. The Spirit is not quite in the same way an object of faith, because He is with us and in us.

A.H.G. Is it often perhaps because of the lack of this unity amongst the saints in love, indicated in verse 1, that we do not get helped as we should do in relation to divine Persons?

S.McC. Do you mean it is not hearts? It is "let not your heart be troubled".

A.H.G. Yes.

S.McC. That is a significant reference to the way they would be bound together in affection. John 14 brings up the wonderful binding ties of affection between the disciples and Christ, so much so that it must have affected the Lord's heart, as He said to them in verse 18, "I will not leave you orphans, I am coming to you". Why did He use that word? He is describing the absolute desolation of their hearts at the thought of losing this One to whom, in love and affection, they had become so bound in companion-ship with Him here.

A.W.G.T. Could you say why the Father's house comes in just as this juncture?

S.McC. Well, I think the Lord is assuring their hearts, just as He would assure ours, that if He is going on before, He is not going on without us. We are on His heart and in His thoughts, and He has gone there before us to prepare a place for us. It brings out the singular glory of the assembly amongst the many families. The Father's house would open upon our view a great range of things in relation to the many families, and many abodes, all of infinite nearness to God in this happy state of love. But then there is a special place for the assembly, "for I go to prepare you a place; and if I go and shall prepare you a place, I am coming again and shall receive you to myself, that where I am ye also may be".

P.H.H. Is it significant that He says, "my Father's house"?

S.McC. It is, because it is alluding to His own relations with the Father, "in my Father's house". He does not say in the Father's house, it particularly alludes to His

own relations with the Father. Have you anything in mind in relation to it?

P.H.H. I thought perhaps it magnified the service of the Lord's sonship on our behalf: the Son of God, knowing the Father as His Father. Now He is proposing to serve the saints to this end, to prepare a special place with Him in His own presence, in His Father's house.

S.McC. That is it.

J.S.E. Is not this a peculiar touch of glory with which we should be more acquainted? The Lord does not refer as much to what He is going to do for them here on earth, as He does in the synoptic gospels, but here it is what He is going to do for them in another sphere altogether.

S.McC. He especially stresses in His reference to it the holy ties and links in love that will never be broken. If the sheep represent links with the Shepherd in holy love, then John 14 brings them on to our view, if we might so say, in a greater way. Not in a more blessed way, for I suppose the love is the same, but in a more extended way.

N.K.M. Is this essentially future, or can it be touched and reached in the Spirit's power now?

S.McC. You mean the Father's house -- "my Father's house"?

N.K.M. Yes, and the place that the Lord has prepared?

S.McC. Well, it is especially alluding to what is future and what is linked with the day to come; but of course there is little that we cannot touch in the Spirit's power here. What we have to do with is more the house of God in its provisional aspect at the present time.

A.J.G. Would you say that in these words in this chapter the Lord is really introducing the Father to us, and in a sense making Him attractive?

S.McC. He is. He is introducing Him in a state of active love. I am sure that this matter of active love in this whole environment is important in relation to our knowledge of divine Persons. Do you not think so?

A.J.G. Yes, I do. I was thinking of the way He introduces "my Father's house" as though to impress them with the sense that the Father was the One who had the house, and ordered things there. Then later He says, "my Father will love him, and we will come to him", and so on.

S.McC. This chapter is remarkable in that way, for the manner in which divine Persons are brought so near to us. We are made to feel that we are not far from any one of Them. We are in the realm and environment of love, and the Lord, speaking reverently, is introducing the Father gradually. He says, "And ye know where I go, and ye know the way. Thomas says to him, Lord, we know not where thou goest, and how can we know the way? Jesus says to him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father unless by me. If ye had known me, ye would have known also my Father, and henceforth ye know him and have seen him" (verses 4 - 7). The Lord is stressing now His mediatorial position. The only way in which we can know the Father is in Christ, and by Christ, and through His service to us.

P.H.H. Does that provide somewhat the answer to Mr. M's question? The Lord does not say that He is the way to the Father's house, but the way to the Father. Is that what

fills out the present time, leaving the Father's house in its own eternal glory to the future?

S.McC. It is, that is beautiful. It says of the Spirit that He is the truth, and it says of Him, as in the believer in Romans 8, that the Spirit is life, but it never says the Spirit is the way. The way is exclusive to Christ; "the mediator of God and men one, the man Christ Jesus" (1 Timothy 2:5).

G.A.L. There are remarkable depths as to the feelings of the blessed Lord opened up in this chapter, are there not? I was thinking of verse 10, "Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me?" and again later on, "if ye loved me ye would rejoice that I go to the Father" (verse 28).

S.McC. You feel that affection is accentuated in this chapter in the way that the Lord propounds questions to the disciples. It is not that He is wanting to bring out their ignorance -- that is not the point at all. He is seeking to bring them into this active operative state of love, where divine Persons are known. He was in it Himself, how He lived in the Father, and how the Father was seen in Him. What a perfect state of love was there.

W.S.S. So you would say that if we are to come into it we must come into it in our affections?

S.McC. Well, we must, and it is important that we should know the Father as John presents Him. We have to note, as Mr. Darby pointed out in a letter⁺ many years ago, the difference between Paul's presentation of the Father and John's presentation of the Father. In Paul it is linked invariably with our state and relationship, and our

⁺ J.N.D., Letters, Volume 2, page 476

enjoyment of the relationship. John presents the Father as to what He is personally; His Person is presented to us in John's ministry, and we have all humbly to admit that when it comes to the Person of the Father we have a lot to learn.

A.P.B. Would you help us as to the difference between what the Lord enjoyed of the Father's company when He was here, and the thought of "going to the Father" as something additional to that?

S.McC. Well, I think it is wonderful that the Spirit helps us to see the glorious state of things in heaven, and that Man is there -- 'Oh the sight in heav'n is glorious! Man in righteousness is there' (Hymn 212). Man is there with God in that setting. It is a wonderful thing to think of it, and to take account of the glorious state of manhood in Christ in heaven, that He is there as Man with the Father.

A.P.B. I have wondered whether our present knowledge of the Father personally does not depend both on Christ having gone to the Father in the way you are speaking of it, and on the Spirit having come from with the Father.

S.McC. Well, it does; that is how we come into it. Think of the ten days preceding the Spirit coming from Christ. What a scene of holy converse! Not that we would conjecture -- far be the thought -- but what holy communication and communion must have obtained in the ten days after our Lord ascended, and before the Spirit descended! And then the Spirit coming and forming the assembly, and bringing into the bosom of the assembly all the refinement of the knowledge linked with that position,

and the wealth and the warmth of the love linked with that position in heaven where Christ is as Man with the Father.

C.W.O'L.M. Is that not involved in the statement "whatsoever he shall hear he shall speak" (John 16:13)?

S.McC. That is it; that would be what is in mind. He brings back a report of what is there, and how it affects our souls, the glory of the Spirit's presence -- the most wonderful thing on earth. As Mr. Taylor said recently, the Spirit's presence in the assembly -- the greatest Friend that we have here.

W.M.B. Would you give us some help about the difference between verse 11 and verse 20? Does it show the added knowledge that comes with the Spirit, the first being a question of faith?

S.McC. In verse 11 He says, "Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father in me; but if not, believe me for the works' sake themselves". You notice that He is referring to the operating side, where the works are coming out. He says in verse 10, "the Father who abides in me, he does the works". It is linked with the works, but when we come to verse 20, it says, "in that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you". It is more the inward side of love and affection; not that verse 11 does not involve love, but it is more the public operative side in relation to the works.

W.M.B. I wondered if the reference to "in that day" stressed the Spirit's day, the presence of the Comforter -- is that what you had in mind?

S.McC. Yes, exactly, because the last part of the verse, "and ye in me, and I in you", could not be apart from the Spirit. So that "in that day ye shall know that I

am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you" is possible because of the Spirit's presence.

A.J.G. And in verse 11, "believe me", emphatic me, "that I am in the Father and the Father in me", does not that involve the truth as to the Person of Christ -- His part in Deity. Is not that all carried forward into verse 20, now that the Spirit has come, "ye shall know that I am in my Father". That involves the place of affection as you say, but the truth of verse 11 is all carried forward into that, is it not?

S.McC. It is. The blessedness of all that was here in holy manhood in Christ in sonship is all carried into the position on high. He laid down the condition, that is one thing that we have to keep in mind. He came into a condition which has been laid down, never to be resumed again, for He has taken His life in a new condition, but all the excellence of manhood that was there in the condition that was laid down, is carried forward into the position on high.

J.S.E. Is this chapter what we might call a chapter of credits, put to the body of the saints? The Lord refers to the term "ye" invariably, and yet one or two brothers bring up their questions, and the Lord takes advantage of them to put further credits to the body of the persons who were there with Him.

S.McC. Yes, just so. He is moving in relation to the disciples in such an affectionate and appealing way, recognising what they were as given to Him of the Father; and as the wonderful fruits of His own service with them. There is a wonderful tribute to the service of Christ in the twelve. I think it is coming out here in their questions,

while there was a measure of ignorance there with them. It is not to their discredit exactly; the Lord is bringing out more through it.

G.A.L. So that the Lord is coming to the climax of His great service in this chapter. He is bringing out the fulness of the christian position, as you say, in verse 20?

S.McC. He is. Life as we have it in John 14 is the highest aspect of life in the gospel. He says, "yet a little and the world sees me no longer; but ye see me; because I live ye also shall live. In that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you". I understand that to be the acme of things in christianity.

J.S.E. And still bearing on the "ye".

S.McC. Still bearing on the "ye", the dignity of the christian company, that is set out in nucleus in the twelve.

P.H.H. Tell us something about this life. Did you say it is the highest aspect of it?

S.McC. Well, it is life in relation to our links with Christ in glory. It is not the appropriation of Christ down here; it is the appropriation of Christ up there. By the Spirit I am linked with Christ in glory and as maintained in holy contact in intimacy with Him, I am in life. Because He lives, I live.

G.A.L. So we are blessed with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus. It is "in Christ Jesus", I was thinking.

S.McC. The position of them, you mean -- yes.

A.Hn. Does the enjoyment of that depend upon verses 15 and 21, he that loves me? I was wondering if you would say a word about that.

S.McC. Yes, I think it is important, but I should be glad if we could have a word on the Father and the making known of the Father before we touch on that. I think it is important that we should see the matter of the Father as John presents Him; and our knowledge of the Father, because the Father is a glorious Person in John's ministry. The Lord is too, and the Spirit, but the Lord is intensifying the thought of the Father in this section of John's gospel. He wants us to know the Father; He wants us to understand the Father.

H.F.R. Is that with a view to our becoming worshippers of the Father, according to His word in chapter 4?

S.McC. Well, it is, and with a view to our being worshippers of God. We shall never worship God rightly unless we are fully and firmly instructed in regard to the knowledge of the Father.

E.J.B. What is going to help us in developing in the knowledge of the Father?

S.McC. Coming under the hand of Christ and the Spirit, because after all the Spirit is here to help us in the way of power to apprehend the truth.

W.S.S. Do you not think that the Spirit would help us to see in John's gospel the deep desires of the Lord that we should know the Father? It is wonderful how the feelings of Christ seem to shine out in the desire that we should know the Father.

S.McC. Well, it is, because "the Father" implies sonship in relation to Christ, and sonship implies an active state of love. We have in chapter 13: 3, the Lord "knowing ... that he came out from God and was going to God". The

primary thought is God, and the final thought is God, but in between there is the marvellous dip in which the mediatorial economy is before us. God is seen in the Father in that relation to impress us with the love and grace of His heart; sonship too appearing in that relation to impress us with divine love. God is love, and this is the way that we come to know God in Himself; and He desires to be known in Himself in so far as we can know Him. So that the relation of Father, and the name "Father" directly bears upon our knowledge of God in this primary and final way.

F.C.H. Would you say a little as to the end of verse 28 in that connection, "if ye loved me ye would rejoice that I go to the Father, for my Father is greater than I"?

S.McC. Well, there is the grace of the economy, this wonderful system of divine affections devised by divine love that we should know God who is love. We are going to be with that God through all eternity, and we are going to be with Him as having learned Him, and having been taught in relation to Him, through this wonderful divine arrangement in the mediatorial economy, the Father the Son and the Spirit. The Lord is saying, "if ye loved me ye would rejoice that I go to the Father, for my Father is greater than I". That is, it is the opening up of the heavenly realm.

A.B. Would love for Christ bring in the Father's affections for that one? I was thinking particularly of verse 21, "but he that loves me shall be loved by my Father", and then again of the further thought in verse 23, "if anyone love me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him".

S.McC. I am not getting your thought; say something more, please.

A.B. I was asking whether such become known to the Father. Particularly, that is, those that love Christ, and keep His commandments, and keep His word, and whether such persons are particularly lovable to the Father?

S.McC. Well, they are; that is a great encouragement to our hearts, and especially to the younger brethren, to see how they come under divine attention as loving Christ. God delights to take account of the lovers of Christ in this way. We should finish with a word as to the Spirit. It says in verses 16 and 17, "And I will beg the Father, and he will give you another Comforter, that he may be with you for ever, the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see him nor know him; but ye know him, for he abides with you, and shall be in you". I am sure it is important that we should more and more know the Spirit in the way in which the Lord is alluding to Him in this section. Because the only liberty we have, and the only joy we have in the realm of the knowledge of divine Persons is what is afforded us by this Person.

A.J.G. This is objective knowledge, is it -- "ye know him" referring to the Spirit? This chapter really gives us an objective presentation of the Father, and the Son, and the Spirit, does it not?

S.McC. Very instructive.

P.H.H. If we can take account of the Spirit objectively, it certainly releases us to speak to Him.

S.McC. Yes, quite so, it does, and why should we not speak to Him? To say that we cannot speak to Him is an implication that He is not God.

THE KNOWLEDGE OF DIVINE PERSONS AND THINGS (5)

S McCallum

John 17:1 - 26; John 20:17 - 31

S.McC. It is felt that these two passages that we have read should complete our enquiry in relation to the subject that has been before us in this gospel, as to the knowledge of divine Persons and divine things. The verses in John 20 were read because they are involved in what the Lord says in chapter 17: 26, "And I have made known to them thy name, and will make it known". There are one or two references to the thought of the knowledge of divine Persons in this wonderful chapter, and it has been referred to as the greatest chapter in the apostolic section of the Scriptures. It is a chapter that is different from all the others. A certain uniqueness attaches to it, in that we are not exactly in the presence of ministry in this chapter, but in the presence of the speaking of one divine Person to Another. We are not in the presence exactly of the Lord teaching in ministry in this chapter, but we are privileged to be, as it were, in the presence of His speaking to the Father -- one divine Person speaking to Another. On the one hand it is in the light of His own equality with the Father, on the other as in the subject dependent place out of which He never took Himself, as having come into it. Even in this chapter, while His equality is asserted, He takes the place of receiving things from the Father. It is thought that we should see first what is referred to in "And

this is the eternal life, that they should know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent". The knowledge of God is linked with eternal life; and then towards the end of the chapter the knowledge of God is linked with the family side. Eternal life is not so much linked with the family side; eternal life is more linked with God and men. So that we should consider first what is referred to in this matter -- "this is the eternal life, that they should know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent". And then the wonderful expressed desires on the part of the Son to the Father as to unity. There are three great references to unity in this chapter. First in relation to the apostles themselves, the apostolic unity; then in relation to those that believed through their word; and then the thought of unity in glory linked with sonship. There are other things that may come in, but these are salient features that we should keep before us in what we are about to consider. The fact that we are in a priestly atmosphere here, in itself has its own word for us.

J.A.P. Why do you say that, a priestly atmosphere?

S.McC. The Son is speaking to the Father. We are in a priestly realm, our minds are impregnated through His utterances with the thought of holiness as He recognises what the Father has given to Him out of the world, and expresses His holy desire that they should be kept from the evil that is in the world. The Lord is priestly in His attitude here, and the whole chapter is filled with priestly utterances in so lofty and exalted a subject as the chapter contemplates.

P.H.H. Is the thought of eternal life somewhat selective here? It says first, "thou hast given him authority

over all flesh;" then, "as to all that thou hast given to him, he should give them life eternal".

S.McC. Yes, it is; it is drawn attention to in regard to the position that the Lord has, as given authority over all flesh, which would look on to the millennial world and the millennial day. But our thoughts are particularly concentrated on the disciples, and on those that should believe on Him through their word, as particularly selected, marked out in relation to this great blessing, this wondrous blessing, though not as great as sonship. Eternal life is not as great as sonship, but it is a wondrous blessing, one of the greatest blessings that we possess. We have been blessed with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies in Christ, and eternal life is one of them.

J.E.B. Is it to be noted that the thought of giving occurs a great number of times in this chapter -- about seventeen times. It is a very precious thought in connection with the Father, is it not?

S.McC. Yes. I think it is very important, because we might say, reverently speaking, in a certain way that we are in the presence of divine love unhindered here. We have the flow of divine affections that the economy was especially devised to impress our minds with -- the giving being part of that -- it is the great expression of God in His nature. God is love, and the giving is a great expression of God in His nature in that way.

F.P.B. Does the only true God cover that?

S.McC. Yes. The Lord says, "And this is the eternal life, that they should know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent". It is remarkable how He refers to Himself in this way, "and Jesus Christ whom

thou hast sent". That kind of man, that order of man, would be particularly stressed -- eternal life linked with God and man in that way.

T.J.G. Does the emphasis being on eternal in that verse suggest that the knowledge of "the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent" is not the acquisition of a mere point of knowledge, but an eternal matter that becomes an integral part of the believer?

S.McC. Yes, the word eternal, of course, in "eternal life" should be contrasted with a scene of death, wherein man's life has been shortened. We know that in the early chapters of Genesis great longevity marked man's life, but that has been shortened, and tremendous difficulties and pressures have come in through sin in relation to the shortening of man's life. Eternal life is the great answer to that, in the very scene where sin has brought in such disaster. Eternal life of course is referring to an out-of-the-world condition of things.

J.S.E. As you remarked earlier, eternal life is not as great as sonship?

S.McC. No, it is not. It is important that we should see that, wondrous as eternal life is, it is not on the same plane as sonship; sonship is the highest blessing for man. We do not reach anything higher than sonship in the way of blessing, and it is linked with the family thought, whereas eternal life is not -- it is God and men.

J.S.E. Yes. Why I asked my question was because you were emphasising eternal life coming into evidence and enjoyment where sin was, but sonship belongs to what is outside of that, does it not?

S.McC. Very good. Sonship is particularly heavenly, although eternal life as we have it is on the heavenly line too, in contrast to the millennial day, where it will be particularly seen in relation to the earth, and the earthly order of things. Eternal life as we have it in the assembly is on the heavenly line, but its bearing is on the condition of things here.

A.J.G. So has it specially in view our position here in testimony? I mean, has it in view that a heavenly colour and power are given to the position in testimony?

S.McC. Yes, exactly, so that there is a testimony in life in the saints through their enjoyment of it in the sphere of life, as it is contemplated in this great thought of eternal life. Eternal life underlies the whole position here. It underlies all the meetings, underlies the service of God. Properly speaking it is a land thought; it belongs to the land, but it underlies the whole position of testimony as you referred to it here.

N.K.M. Is it connected particularly with promise, and sonship with purpose?

S.McC. It is. Sonship was in the mind of God before the world was, but eternal life comes in after sin was introduced, and bears upon the introduction of sin in the world. It is on the line of promise to meet what has come in through sin, in the shortening of the span of life, the pressure of death upon our spirits; eternal life is God's great provision to meet that kind of thing.

E.J.H. Is lifting "up the eyes to heaven" connected with what you are speaking of as to the influence of heaven on the whole position?

S.McC. Yes. This whole chapter is to draw us into the environment of heaven, although we are still on earth. One of the things that is so affecting in this chapter is the way the Lord speaks, as if the geographical setting did not exist. He says, "and now I come to thee" -- a remarkable statement on His part as to His going to the Father. This whole section, from John 13 to this chapter, is filled with the thought of His going to the Father, which of course involves the cross, and the grave and His rising again, and ascension. But the Lord speaks of it as if He would draw us into the immediate environment of it and into heaven in that way.

W.S.S. And there is the Lord's joy in going to the Father?

S.McC. Yes. He would draw us into His restfulness, His peace, His joy, in the position that He was in; we are left with all the richness of that legacy.

P.H.H. Is the contrasting thought of eternal life somewhat confirmed in the expression "the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent"? The only true God?

S.McC. Yes, it would stand against what is false, do you think? It has a relative bearing on what would be around in regard to the multiplicity of gods, "there are gods many, and lords many" (1 Corinthians 8:5). So that we have an economical reference here in the statement, "this is the eternal life, that they should know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent". It is an economical reference; the divine arrangement is in mind, in the only true God, as seen in the Father, and Jesus Christ the sent One.

P.H.H. But if I understood your earlier remark, it does not really take us into any family relationship, such as is contemplated in "my Father and your Father".

S.McC. No, it does not; that is not the side of the truth that comes in in connection with eternal life, so that eternal life is presented in the gospel to men. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whosoever believes on him may not perish, but have life eternal" (John 3:16). The great thought is men, and the bringing of them into eternal life. As Mr. Darby says, 'The sense would thus be that He has loved men in view of eternal life, "so that" He has given' (see note b).

F.W.K. In the epistle to Titus eternal life is connected with the knowledge of the Saviour God, and becomes the subject of testimony?

S.McC. Yes, it does.

J.A.P. How do you connect what you are saying with "God has given to us eternal life; and this life is in his Son" (1 John 5:11)?

S.McC. The thought in 1 John 5 is to draw our attention to the position of it, where it is positionally, and life in its entirety is positionally in the Son. The believer has it, of course. As John presents the truth, the saints have it; but in its entirety John presents it positionally in that exalted position; not in heaven exactly, but in the Son -- a wonderful reference to the dignity and glory of its position, so that it would involve divine affections. While eternal life does not involve the family side so much as God and men, yet it involves divine affections, so that the testimony to the eternal life came out in the Lord Jesus in His living relations with the Father.

W.McK. You remarked yesterday, in regard to chapter 14: 19 where the Lord Jesus says, "because I live ye also shall live", that that was the highest thought of life. Does that connect with what you are saying now?

S.McC. There we have the thought of life in an operative way. Eternal life is not exactly life in an operative way, but points to a sphere of life that is linked with the knowledge of divine Persons. In John 14 the verse you allude to brings life before us and conveys, as you say, the highest presentation of life in John's gospel on the operative side -- I mean operative in the sense that it affects us. We live because He lives, but eternal life is another thought.

H.A.H. Are not family conditions on our side as brethren necessary for the enjoyment of it?

S.McC. Yes. It involves a sphere -- "Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!" (Psalm 133:1). Then, as the psalm goes on, "there hath Jehovah commanded the blessing". That is, it is linked with these conditions, so that properly and rightly speaking, it is a blessing that is linked with the land, the heavenly side.

H.F.R. John 12 has often been used as an illustration of it. It is a family setting there?

S.McC. Yes. We see how the pressure of death was lifted off their spirits as they were together in relation to one another, and in relation to Christ, so that movements in honouring Christ were unimpeded.

A.J.G. The family setting would give the heavenly out-of-the-world character to it, would it, but the basic

character of it is the knowledge of the true God and of Jesus Christ whom He has sent?

S.McC. That is it. It involves an out-of-the-world condition and relationship and being. It involves a system of relationships, and that is what gives character to it in a heavenly way.

P.H.H. Does that mean that eternal life has a kind of dual application? On the one hand it will be known outwardly in the millennium, but at the present time it is known spiritually and more inwardly in the assembly?

S.McC. That is it. No family will know eternal life, and enjoy eternal life, as the assembly enjoys it. That is one of the things that shows us the importance of the Spirit as He is known in this dispensation. There are blessings which other families may touch in some measure, but with them it does not reach into the exquisiteness and blessedness of what is touched in the assembly, because eternal life in the assembly is enjoyed on the upward and heavenly line.

H.L.T. Would you say another word as to verses 2 and 3? In the one it is "life eternal", in the other "eternal life".

S.McC. I do not know that I can say much about it. The one is stressing the life with the adjective afterwards; other the adjective is before it. The one is stressing the thing itself, but the other is stressing the character of it, "this is the eternal life". We are to notice that. I think the Lord is focusing our thoughts on the uniqueness of eternal life as we are to enjoy it, so that He does not say, 'And this is eternal life', He says, "and this is the eternal life". I think it is particularly stressing it in relation to the family.

This chapter contemplates the uniqueness of eternal life as it is known in the assembly, which is the eternal life.

A.J.G. Has it not been said that the knowledge of the only true God delivers us from idolatry, and the knowledge of Jesus Christ, His sent one, delivers us from lawlessness? And can you not see, the more you think of that, how essential that is if we are to be maintained in testimony here in the presence of all that is corrupt, and on the other hand, if we are to be maintained in the service of God?

S.McC. I think that is very good. And it helps us as to the importance of eternal life as bearing on our public position in testimony, and as bearing on the inward position in the service of God. It is a living state of things that we have to do with, over against the dead state of things all around. The enjoyment of eternal life bears upon that. It is very striking that the first formal reference to the economy in this gospel is John 3:35, "the Father loves the Son, and has given all things to be in his hand". Then chapter 4 immediately brings in the living water, that is the Spirit, and eternal life, in view of two great prime matters in the dispensation: evangelical testimony, and the worship of God in an inward way. The Spirit and eternal life bear directly on these matters as to living conditions in them, and power in them, and the first feature of the administration of the economy brings that out.

W.S.S. And in regard of what you said about the service of God following eternal life, eternal life is brought in in Psalm 133, and we have the service of God in the next psalm, have we not -- "Lift up your hands in the sanctuary, and bless Jehovah" (Psalm 134:2)?

S.McC. Very good, and it is important that we should see the bearing of eternal life in relation to the service of God, because it preserves us from holding the truth merely in terms. It preserves us from mere theology in relation to the truth, because in the assembly we have a living state of things.

A.Hn. Does the food in chapter 6 afford substance in this great matter of life and the service of God?

S.McC. Yes, it does. It brings in what is to help us constitutionally, because we need help in our constitutions, and the food would bear upon that. It contemplates, on the negative side, the ending of one order of things, but on the positive side the opening up of another order of things, morally and spiritually outside of the world.

P.H.H. Why does the Lord immediately go on to the request for His being glorified? It seems perhaps somewhat abrupt, but He speaks of having glorified God on the earth, and "now glorify me, thou Father" and so on, leading on to what is inscrutable. What is the setting of that in relation to what we are saying?

S.McC. I think He is coming on to what is to impress our minds and hearts in a distinctive way in regard to the glory of divine Persons, and Their relations with one another. It would seem as if in this chapter the standard is set out in the relations of divine Persons with one another. The standard as to unity, the standard as to perfect love, is set out in the relations between the Father and the Son and the Spirit too, because the Father and the Son are one in the unity of the Spirit. That is what is to affect the saints, because it is the presence of the Spirit that makes things real with us, especially as to this matter of unity.

J.S.E. Is this abruptness, to which Mr. H. refers, to impress us with the fact that, having settled the matter of eternal life, the Lord refers to something greater, is that right?

S.McC. Our minds and our attention are drawn to divine greatness, and the holy unjealous relations between divine Persons in love. What a pattern is set out in holy references of Christ here, as to the Father's relations with Him and His relations with the Father! What a pattern is set out for us as to conditions among the saints! He says, "I have glorified thee on the earth, I have completed the work which thou gavest me that I should do it; and now glorify me, thou Father, along with thyself, with the glory which I had along with thee before the world was". He was co-equal, co-eternal with the Father, and His rights in equality are asserted in this gospel. But the glory that was rightly His with the Father before the world was, He would not take it without asking the Father, showing the remarkable relations that are intended to affect us; the great object of the economy is to affect us by what appears in testimony in it.

A.J.G. So that really God meets all the conditions that have come in through sin, by coming into testimony Himself?

S.McC. That is it; and I think we need to see the economy from this viewpoint, that it is a divinely devised system of affections in which we are to know God. God is love -- that is His nature -- love; that is absolute. God is love, but in the realm of inscrutable Deity how could we know it? We could not, with creature mind and under-standing, enter there to know it, understand it and enjoy it.

But God has devised, divine love has devised, in the economy, a system of affections in the Father and the Son and the Spirit, in which we are to know God in that economy.

P.J.B. Was eternal life essential as far as we are concerned, if we were to have any understanding in relation to these wondrous relationships?

S.McC. I think eternal life is important as basic to our enjoyment of divine Persons, because christianity involves life, whether life operatively as has been referred to in John 14, or whether life as viewed in the sphere of it, contemplated in what we are referring to as eternal life here.

F.R.H. It says in 1 John 4:9, "Herein as to us has been manifested the love of God", and the note (c) to that is interesting, "The idea of the love of God remains absolute: only it has been shown 'as respects us in this' etc.".

S.McC. Yes, we know it relatively. One of the supreme expressions of it is that Christ has laid down His life; that is one of the most wonderful expressions of divine love relatively.

H.A.H. Is it significant that in the other reference to what was before the world (verse 24) the Lord brings in the love between Himself and the Father, relative to His request that we should be with Him to behold His glory? I was thinking of the distinction between verses 5 and 24 -- the two references to what existed before the foundation of the world.

S.McC. Well, in verse 24, of course, we are brought into the beholding of the glory, but not in verse 5; we could never behold the glory that is contemplated there.

H.A.H. I was thinking of the significance of love being brought in in verse 24.

S.McC. Yes, "that they may behold my glory which thou hast given me, for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world".

H.A.H. I thought it was very significant that such a love was brought in, in relation to such a request as to ourselves.

S.McC. Yes. Well, we are impressed with this matter of love as the chapter ends. The Lord is filling our minds with thoughts as to divine love, what is special to Himself, and what we come into. As the chapter proceeds He refers to the love "with which thou hast loved me may be in them and I in them". That would be the thought of family love in relation to Christ in manhood -- sonship. "Thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world" is another thought in regard to love.

I think we should be impressed with this matter of the Lord not taking Himself out of the dependent position into which He had come. There is a great lesson for us in it. Whilst He is speaking of what we cannot enter upon -- the glory of the form of God, which we know nothing about, except that unapproachable light is linked with it, and love is linked with it, and glory is linked with it -- we are to be impressed with how He would not take Himself out of the dependent place even here. The enemy tried to take Him out of it, but even here He does not say, as we have perhaps often noted, 'and now I glorify myself'. He says, "And now glorify me, thou Father, along with thyself, [that brings us back to what we have in John 1:1",the Word was with God"], with the glory which I had along with

thee before the world was". It is recorded through John the evangelist, that we might be impressed with it in some measure, although we cannot enter upon what is involved in it, yet it is brought into our thoughts in some way to impress us with the greatness of divine Persons.

H.F.R. Are the emphatic pronouns there, the personal pronouns, very important? In the earlier verse he says, "glorify thy Son", but now he says, "glorify me, thou Father".

S.McC. Yes, He has come back to what is personal. The first three verses are almost indirect in certain ways, but then as we go on from verse 4 the Lord speaks about Himself in His relations with the Father, and what enters into those relations, seen so wondrously in the economy.

A.B. And would this move us in worship to the Son, the sense that He has a personal glory, as along with the Father -- and co-equal with Him?

S.McC. Well, it does, and it helps us to see His equality with the Father, His place in Deity. It says in verse 3, "the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent". The true God has reference to the Father. But then we have to bear in mind, even in thinking of that, that the Lord Jesus is said to be the true God too. Surely the statements do not conflict, and it is for faith, and for minds and hearts taught by the Spirit, to understand what is in mind. We are to be impressed with the fact that not only the Father is God, but the Lord Jesus, the Son, is God, and the Spirit is God. "He is the true God and eternal life" (1 John 5:20). So we are reminded of His Deity in verse 5.

A.J.G. Do you think that verse 5 throws its lustre back on verse 4 -- that such an One as is speaking in verse 5, has

been here in testimony as glorifying God -- glorifying the Father, not seeking His own glory, and He had completed the work? Is that to have an effect upon us as here in the position of testimony?

S.McC. Well, it is, I am sure, and it is very affecting to be in the presence of the Lord speaking to the Father in this way as to His having glorified Him on the earth -- "I have glorified thee on the earth" -- a wonderful reference. The earth, you see, refers to what is creational; the earth had been created by God, and He says, "I have glorified thee on the earth". But then He brings in the moral and spiritual universe in what He says following on that, "I have completed the work which thou gavest me". That is not creational exactly -- it alludes to the wonderful work linked with God coming into the mediatorial economy, in the way He has done, to liberate men that they might know Him in the blessedness of His Being, as He desired to be known, in so far as He can be known according as He has revealed Himself in Christ.

J.S.E. Is it to affect us that it is reserved to the Son, in what He says to the Father personally, to put the most glorious impress of the Father's supremacy upon the economy?

S.McC. Well, it is. I am sure we want to see the weight of the Lord's words in speaking in this way, and especially this matter as to testimony, "I have glorified thee on the earth". Why should the Lord say, "on the earth"? The creational side is in mind, and we have to do with what is created. We know what sin has done in the theatre that comes under our eye in created things -- how sin has come in and deranged what is linked with that

order of things viewed creationally here. But the Lord says, "I have glorified thee on the earth", and that is to bear upon us; the apprehension of it is to bear upon us as we touch, and have to do with, the creational side.

W.B.H. Is it in striking contrast to that word in Genesis, "and Jehovah repented that he had made Man on the earth, and it grieved him in his heart" (Genesis 6:6)?

S.McC. That is it. So we have the true God in verse 3, and true manhood in Jesus Christ, and what a contrast to what came in by the first man, "I have glorified thee on the earth".

J.H. It says in Psalm 65:9 that "thou hast visited the earth, thou hast watered it; thou greatly enrichest it: the river of God is full of water".

S.McC. So it is an important thing that we should see the earth abstractly, and learn to think of it abstractly, and see what is in the divine mind in relation to it. What a touch the Lord gives to the creational side here, "I have glorified thee on the earth". The very place where idolatry had come in, where lawlessness had reared its head, the Lord said, "I have glorified thee on the earth".

W.S.S. Verse 4 would embrace the two great thoughts of creation and redemption, so much brought together in Scripture.

S.McC. Well, it does, and the "glorified thee on the earth" and the completing the work which thou gavest me involves redemption, and it involves the cross.

W.S.S. And it is the basis of all that is to be brought in for the glory of God.

S.McC. That is it.

A.Hn. Do you link this in your mind with what Paul says in Philippians 2:5 when he is referring to the mind that was in Christ Jesus, and inviting us to let it be in us?

S.McC. I think that is the bearing of it testimonially on us here. We are to be affected by what is seen in the Lord Jesus in this wonderful divine arrangement: how He glorified the Father, as He speaks of Him in this way, glorified God in the way in which He did it. We see the true relations between God and men in this Person in manhood in the economy.

E.J.H. And would you say that true manhood, as patterned after Christ, is seen in what the Lord Jesus says to Peter at the end of the gospel, "signifying by what death he should glorify God" (John 21:19)?

S.McC. It shows how the thought of glorifying God is to appear in the saints, even in the way they die.

Now the time is pretty well gone, and we should come on to the other features of our subject. We should look at the latter part of the chapter as to the making known of the name. It says earlier, "I have manifested thy name to the men whom thou gavest me out of the world" (verse 6). There is a manifestation of the name, which is linked with the whole testimonial position there at the beginning, but when we come to the end it is, "and I have made known to them thy name, and will make it known". As we have been taught, the manifestation side bears on the testimonial position, but the making known is a deeper inward thought coming into this setting in a peculiar way, and coming into John 20 in a peculiar way. "I have made known to them thy name, and will make it known".

P.J.B. Is that the name He took in coming into the economy?

S.McC. I think it is the name of God that is involved in this. "I have made known unto them thy name" no doubt would bear on the way He had taught them in regard to the Father. He had come in the Father's name, and He says in verse 11, "I am no longer in the world, and these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name which thou hast given me, that they may be one as we. When I was with them I kept them in thy name". He made known to them the Father in His service and ministry. But then He says, "and will make it known", which involves John 20, as He says to Mary, "Go to my brethren and say to them, I ascend to my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God". That is, we have something further: the completing of this making known of the name.

W.S.S. There is a verse in Psalm 48:10 which seems to bear on this: "According to thy name, O God, so is thy praise".

S.McC. Well, that bears on what enters into the worship of God. Every family is formed according to the particular light in which God is made known to it, and so the assembly is formed according to the particular light that enters into our dispensation in regard to God.

J.S.E. When you spoke of "making known thy name", did you mean that the first allusion, "I have made known" was economical and the second was final?

S.McC. Well, "I have made known to them thy name" is historical. It is alluding to the service of Christ to the disciples, "I have made known to them thy name". But

then it says "and will make it known". That brings in John 20, which is final; that is, it completes the knowledge of the Name.

P.H.H. Involved in the message to Mary, do you mean?

S.McC. Yes, exactly. "My Father and your Father, and to my God and your God".

P.H.H. There is no sense in which the Lord makes known His name to us in assembly service now, is there?

S.McC. No. John 20 is final. The matter is complete and final in that relation.

W.J.B. So that the reference in Hebrews 2:12 to "I will declare thy name to my brethren" -- that has been done, has it?

S.McC. It bears on what the Lord did on the morning of the resurrection, the first day of the week (John 20) -- it bears upon that.

J.A.P. "My Father and your Father, and to my God and your God". They are the same Person, are They not? I mean They are spoken of as one, and yet would there be something in the name of God that is greater and wider?

S.McC. Well, we would like to understand what you have in mind in saying it is the same Person.

J.A.P. Well, it is His Father and His God; but as to 'His God', I suppose when you come to the Being of God you cannot be definitive in your mind, can you?

S.McC. I think I see what is in your mind -- that the Father is before us in John 20, "my Father and your Father". How blessed that name is. But then there is the fuller name: God; whereas the Father particularly applies to that Person, God as seen and known in that Person as

revealed -- "My Father and your Father". But then, the name of Father does not cover the Three Persons. While God is presented in the economy in the Father, the name of Father does not cover the full thought of the Deity; the Deity is presented in the Father. But the name of God is the appellation which covers the complete thought of Deity, the expression that the Spirit of God uses to bring to our minds the thought of the Deity, because in God it is the Deity that is in mind. It is the Name and the appellation which covers the full thought of the Deity; not that we are saying that the full thought of Deity is not presented in the Father personally in the economy -- "to us there is one God, the Father"(1 Corinthians 8:6). Deity is presented in the Father in the economy, but then the name Father is a name of special relationship and in itself is limited; because the God who has come into that relationship must necessarily be greater than the relationship He has come into. "My God and your God" involves that Being, the Supreme Being, and is the Name involving all three Persons; Father, Son and Holy Spirit -- that covers the full thought as to the Deity.

J.A.P. So when you use the name "God" you do not limit it in any way, unless it is specifically referred to the Father. You have in mind that the Father is God, the Lord Jesus is God, and the Spirit is God.

S.McC. Exactly, because "God" when it is presented without qualification in the word, generally would involve God, the Supreme Being -- "in the beginning God" (Genesis 1:1) -- that is, the Supreme Being, the Being to be worshipped. What is necessary to make clear at this point is that what some are suggesting, that this thought of

worshipping God as God, involves a position beyond relationship, has never been suggested. It has never been in anyone's mind that worshipping God as God takes us outside of relationship. God has come into the relation of Father, that we might know Him in His nature -- what He is, because "Father" implies, sonship -- involves sonship in Christ. These are relations that are intended to help us as to the apprehension of the Being that has come within our range in the economy; that is referred to in that appellation "my God and your God".

J.A.P. I think that greatly helps.

W.M.B. Do you distinguish this at all from Ephesians 1:3, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ"? Would you distinguish the two in any way?

S.McC. Well, I would in the sense that there is a particular reference to the family side in Ephesians 1, to the side of relationship. The family relationship is essential and we never go outside of it in having to do with God. The family relationship was designed, so that we should be in nearness to God. It is obvious that in "my Father and your Father" there is an intimacy that could not be in "my God and your God", because God is God, and never ceases to be any less than God -- infinite in power and in majesty. But the relationship is brought in that we might know Him in nearness, and we never go out of that relationship.

A.C.S.P. Are we to carry into this thought of God, as you are now speaking of it, the distinctive glories of each of the Persons as they have come out in the economy?

S.McC. Well, the Being that we are speaking of under that appellation "my God and your God" is the Being that is known in the economy in the Father and the Son and the

Spirit. They are distinguished for us in Their operations and actions in the economy. We have to keep that in mind, that it is in coming out and in Their operations and actings that They are distinguished for us. Whilst John says, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God" (John 1:1) it is not that He is carrying that appellation back into Deity, but he is referring to the Person who was known in testimony as the Word, and to His eternal position in Deity, His eternal equality with the Father and with the Spirit too, "the Word was with God, and the Word was God".

P.H.H. Do you think it helps to understand that God coming out has expressed Himself in Father, Son, and Spirit, but in the return line which the Lord is suggesting here He just says, "and to my God and your God"? Does that give us liberty, therefore, just to speak to God Himself? If we go on and express the name "Father, Son, and Spirit", we are returning for a moment to the coming out side, are we, whereas is the whole thing gathered up in our liberty at the end to speak to God Himself?

S.McC. It is, but the approach is equal to the revelation, so that the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit would have its place in approach to Him.

P.H.H. I would not like to say that we may not refer to the Father, Son, and Spirit when we are speaking to God, but does not the Scripture encourage us at the end, at the highest point of the service, just to speak to God, without necessarily particularising each time by saying, 'Father, Son and Spirit'?

S.McC. We had it this morning. It does not necessarily mean that you always have to refer to each of the

Persons, because God is God. He is that Being, and we may refer to Each of the Persons as we know Them in the economy, but we may refer to God as God. The Lord Jesus says "my God". He is speaking as Man, and He is speaking in the mediatorial position. He says "my God and your God", but He says "my God" -- Christ's God. Think of the infinitude of that Being, that Christ refers to in manhood as His God, and surely we can allude to that; and then it says "your God". Well, "our God". What does that involve? Surely the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are involved in that. But then it is all a question of what may be in the person's mind as he speaks. The person may be alluding to God in His supremacy, a Supreme Being to be worshipped, without formally alluding to the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. But then he may allude to the Father, and the Son, and the Spirit, which is quite in keeping with the truth, because God is so spoken of in the Scriptures as Father, Son, and Spirit. In fact I would draw the brethren's attention to Mr Darby's Synopsis on John 17,⁺ and the way he speaks of 'communion with the Being thus known to the soul -- of communion with God Himself fully known as the Father and the Son'.

-- .H. Is that why we use the formula in Matthew in baptism, "to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" -- to one Name?

S.McC. Yes, I think it is important that we should see this matter of relationship. We should not allow the enemy to suggest in any shape or form that we get out of the place of relationship -- that there is some position that we get

⁺ J.N.D., Synopsis, Volume 3, page 388

into in the service of God, where we are beyond relationship. We never do. We are always in relationship in sonship, and we worship God in His supremacy and His majesty as in that relationship. God, "my God and your God", is the great Name that expresses the whole thought as to the Deity, involving all three Persons, involving that Being known in the economy in the three Persons: the Father, the Son, and the Spirit.

A.J.G. Does the fact that the Lord says to the overcomer in Philadelphia, that He will write upon him the name of His God, show that the overcomer can be seen as in the good of it, do you think?

S.McC. That is it. He has in mind to put these impressions upon him so that it is apropos of our time and day that so much should be referred to in this regard, fitting in with the closing phase of things. I am sure that, as we understand John 20, "my Father and your Father", that is the relationship that God has entered upon that we might know Him in holy intimacy, in relation to Him in sonship, that we are prepared for "my God and your God". This brings into our minds the great thought of the Supreme Being who is the End, in all divine operations and in all that is in mind in the worship of Himself.

J.S.E. Is the allusion to "my God" in John 20 the Lord's assertion of the matter as a matter by itself, made by Him who knows all that it means in fulness. But is the allusion to "my God" which has been referred to in Revelation 3 to help us to see how attracted the Lord is to an overcomer, so that He Himself puts that impress upon such persons?

S.McC. Yes, so that it is important to see the bearing of the Lord's words in that particular setting, involving a phase of things in the particular assembly that they are addressed to -- Philadelphia.

Bristol, June 1953

THE HIGH PRAISES OF GOD (1)

G R Cowell

Psalm 2:1 - 12; Psalm 8:4 - 6; Psalm 22:1 - 3, 22; Psalm 24:3, 8 - 10; Psalm 40:6 - 8; Psalm 41:13

G.R.C. The Psalms are suggested, with the desire that we may be helped in the praises of God. It is proposed to take up a book in each of the five readings, considering the salient features of each, particularly having in mind the doxology at the end of each book. We are not thinking of the Psalms as applied to Israel, but rather seeking the Spirit's help in giving an application to them, as bearing on the praises of the assembly. I think all would agree that this is justifiable, because the assembly was the primary thought with God: and while scriptures such as the Psalms have a special bearing upon Israel, the Spirit of God ever had the assembly before Him when inditing Scripture. The whole of Scripture, thus, was written for our learning. We can read the Psalms, therefore, in the light of Paul's ministry and the place the assembly has in association with, and as united to, Christ. As read in that way, they are calculated, one feels, to expand our thoughts as to the praises of God. It has been noted by others that the Psalms begin with the blessedness of the man, that is man according to God, and bring out the blessedness of God, ending with the last five Psalms which constitute the great Hallel (i.e. praise) to God. The last Psalm is an ascription of praise to God in the greatness of His Being, as signified in the names of Jah and El, so that the Psalms, especially

as viewed in christian light, lead up to a remarkable climax. God, as God, is praised in the greatness of His Being, by creatures who have become intelligent as to His nature and attributes, by the way in which He has come out in declaration and revelation. Such can render to Him a worthy note of praise.

I think the first book of Psalms particularly has in mind the purpose of God, and presents God to us in relation to His purpose. The purpose of God takes our minds back to a past eternity, and in its fulfilment leads our minds on to the eternity to come, and so we can understand the doxology at the end, "Blessed be Jehovah, the God of Israel, from eternity to eternity! Amen, and Amen" (Psalm 41:13). But then, with that in mind, the book dwells much on Christ as the Man of God's purpose. When it speaks of His moral features, it often indicates that there will be others like Him. The first psalm, while applying primarily to Christ, has a more general application, for it refers to the assembly of the righteous. Similarly, the first part of Psalm 24 says, "Who shall ascend into the mount of Jehovah? and who shall stand in his holy place?" And goes on to say, "This is the generation of them that seek unto him". So that where there are moral descriptions, while Christ is primarily in mind, it makes way for the generation of Jesus Christ. But when you come to the glories of the Christ in this book, they are unique to Him -- no one can share them with Him. The second psalm brings out basic glories upon which the whole divine plan, as one might say, rests. He is God's anointed -- God's Christ; He is God's Son, and He is also called the Son. It is a remarkable thing that at the opening

of the Psalms there should be such a full setting out of the glories of Christ. Psalm 8 indicates that these glories are no longer limited to Israel, and so presents the Son of man in universal dominion. Psalm 22 refers to His sufferings in order to secure the purpose of God. Psalm 24 brings out, without equivocation, who He is in His Person. The Man who has gone in is none other than Jehovah of hosts. And then Psalm 40, "In the volume of the book it is written of me", refers to the One in whom the purpose of God centres. I thought these points might engage us, particularly Psalm 2, as being basic, and then Psalm 22, where we might consider specially the declaration of God's name; and then Psalm 40.

N.F.A. Does the first book link up definitely with Ephesians in the New Testament, would you say, as unfolding to us the glory of Christ?

G.R.C. There is a very definite link with Ephesians, and with Paul's and John's ministry generally. Psalm 2 brings out two glorious features of Christ's manhood. The first thing is, "I have anointed my king". That is, God has His Christ; and if the purpose of God was ever to be carried through God must have His Christ. He must have the Man whom He could anoint, the Man capable of carrying all through for God. Then there is the relationship in which He stands as Man, "Thou art my Son; I this day have begotten thee". These two glories are greatly developed by both Paul and John. Paul commences his ministry by preaching in the synagogues, "Jesus that he is the Son of God" (Acts 9:20), and he quotes in Acts 13:33 from this very passage, "Thou art my Son". Following the preaching in Acts 9, it says he confounded the Jews,

proving from the scriptures that Jesus was the Christ. These are the great pillars of Paul's ministry, that Jesus is the Son of God, and that Jesus is the Christ. Paul's gospel centres in the Son of God, and his ministry of the assembly centres in the Christ. Ephesians is full of the glory of the Christ. Similarly they are the two great features of John's ministry. He writes that we might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. His emphasis is more on the Son of God.

W.J.S. Do you think we have been in danger of thinking of the Psalms too much on the individual line? Even in the first psalm the generation is suggested, the assembly of the righteous. And it is remarkable that at the end of Luke He can open up the Psalms, and afterwards they were continually in the temple, praising and blessing God?

G.R.C. The final thing the Lord brings in is the Psalms. "These are the words which I spoke to you while I was yet with you, that all that is written concerning me in the law of Moses and prophets and psalms must be fulfilled" (Luke 24:44). And then He says, "Thus it is written, and thus it behoved the Christ to suffer". He brings in that title, "the Christ".

A.T.G. Could you say a word as to your reference to verse 12, "Kiss the Son", and then the further reference to Paul's ministry as to the Son of God? The Lord says in the gospels that no one knows the Son, but Paul says that we are to arrive at the full knowledge of the Son of God.

G.R.C. It seems to me remarkable that so much is comprised prophetically in the second psalm. First, "I have anointed my king;" that is, God has His Christ. His Christ

is not only His King, but He is His Priest, for it says, "upon Zion, the hill of my holiness". Indeed, if God secures His King, He secures His Priest, His Prophet and His Preacher. All those are included in the idea of King according to God. "I, the Preacher, was king over Israel in Jerusalem" (Ecclesiastes 1:12). So that, in His Anointed, His Christ, He has the Man who can carry into effect everything that is in the mind of God. The last book of Psalms shows, among other things, that He is not only the Anointed but also the Ark of God's strength (Psalm 132:8). But the first book stresses that God has secured His Anointed, the Man who will carry everything through, and this involves finding a place -- indeed at the centre of the universe -- for Jehovah and the Ark of His strength. But the first thing is that God has secured His Christ. Then there is the relationship in which He stands, "Thou art my Son; I this day have begotten thee", and we are to arrive at the knowledge of the Son of God, at the full-grown man. We are to grow up to Him in all things who is the Head. But then behind all that is the truth of His Person, and the psalm ends with "Kiss the Son", a title which, while attaching to Him only in manhood, yet lays great stress on His Deity. Those who uttered these things in Old Testament times, as Peter says, did not understand the implication of what they were saying, but here is the word to the kings of the earth, "Kiss the Son;" and it seems to me that it is a remarkable allusion to His Deity. We need, of course, to see, to begin with, that even the fact that He is God's Anointed and God's Son implies Deity. Mr. Darby says that the Lord Jesus 'had taken a place, while never ceasing to be God, and which Godhead alone could fulfil

the conditions of, outside Godhead'. ⁺ We have to take that into account. No one but a Person of the Godhead could ever be God's Christ. And so immediately Paul says, "of whom, as according to flesh, is the Christ, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen" (Romans 9:5). No less a Person could ever fill out the position of the Christ. Similarly, no one but a Person of the Godhead could fill out the relationship implied in the expression, "Thou art my Son; I this day have begotten thee". But when the title "the Son" is used I think it involves His Deity.

W.S.S. Would you say that in Psalm 2 God introduces a Man who, at the same time, is divine, by means of whom He is going to fill the universe with praise, as in the last psalm?

G.R.C. Exactly. Here is the Man who is going to do it. It brings out His official glory, the Christ; and His personal glory in manhood, the only-begotten Son. Then there is this reference to the Son, which involves Deity, I believe.

W.S.S. I think it is exceedingly beautiful. I am always very thankful when I hear the Psalms taken up. Mr. Darby said that there is more of the Spirit of Christ in the Psalms than any other part of Scripture. ⁺⁺ I suppose the praises which will ascend to God in their fulness, depend upon the apprehension of the way in which Christ is presented to us, particularly, perhaps, in Psalm 2.

G.R.C. So that it is good to have Christ before us in the way He is presented. And let us keep in mind that this

⁺ J.N.D., Collected Writings, Volume 17, page 19

⁺⁺ J.N.D. reference not found, but see J.T., N.S., Volume 93, page 491

word is about to go out to the kings of the earth, "Kiss the Son".

S.H. "I will declare the decree: Jehovah hath said unto me". Do you understand that it is the Christ, the Anointed, that is speaking there, and would it confirm to us that He is the Alpha and Omega? The decree seems to be connected with His Deity.

G.R.C. It was Jehovah's decree, I suppose; but then the great mystery is that this Person Himself is no less than Jehovah, as we see in Psalm 24. The question is raised, "Who is this King of glory?" Who is this glorious Man who has gone through and established the whole purpose of God? "Jehovah of hosts, he is the King of glory".

G.H.S.P. Would Hebrews 1 and 2 confirm what you are saying: the glory of the Son in chapter 1, in the setting of the revelation of God? Then, in chapter 2, many sons being brought to glory? The response is to be equal to the revelation, because they are both in Christ. Those chapters are full of quotations from the Psalms.

G.R.C. Very good. Chapter 1 stresses His Deity, but in chapter 2 we are associated with Him. But very soon the kings of the earth are to hear this command, "Kiss the Son". No one will hold office in that day unless he acknowledges the royalty and Deity of this Person. The kissing of the hand is customary when a person receives office at the hands of a monarch, and the time is very near when no one will hold office in heaven, or on earth, unless he receives it from Him.

Rem. And it will be done, it will be done!

C.E.J. Does Ephesians 1:9, 10 confirm what you are saying as to the purpose of God, "which he purposed in

himself for the administration of the fulness of times; to head up all things in the Christ"?

G.R.C. Very much so. In that day every office-holder in heaven and on earth will hold office only on condition that he kisses the Son. All things are to be headed up in the Christ, the Anointed.

W.S.S. How does this apply at the present time, because it must work out in the assembly in a fuller way, must it not? All must flow from the heart being attached to the Son?

G.R.C. I think so. The greatness of the Person of Christ is cherished in the affections of the assembly, for He is head over all things to the assembly, which is His body; He is that to us now. He does not appear to be that to men on earth at the moment; but to the assembly He is ever that. How we love Him in His glory, as He is presented in this psalm!

C.J.H.D. Does God's wisdom enter peculiarly into this matter, along with His purpose, for the word used in Psalm 2:6 for anointed, (according to note f ) is the same word that is used in Proverbs 8:23, where it is said that wisdom was set up from eternity, from the beginning of God's ways. Though this is said of Christ in manhood, the wisdom that purposed it goes back to the past eternity, does it not?

G.R.C. Very good. All things were created by Him and for Him, were they not? Everything was according to plan from the very outset, having in view that the Christ would fill all.

J.F.P. So that the kiss of allegiance makes way for the outshining of the glory of God in the world to come, in keeping with His purpose?

G.R.C. Quite so, and subjection to the Son at the present time makes way for the service of God in the assembly.

J.F.P. I am sure that is most important, the bearing of it on the service of God at the present time, and the outshining of God in testimony, too.

G.R.C. We should cherish the mystery of His will, to head up all things in the Christ, and have a sense of the imminence of it. But then that would all help in the present service of God. I think for that we need to move on to Psalm 22. Psalm 8 enforces the truth that the titles of Psalm 2 are not limited to Israel. The Christ has universal dominion as the Son of man, and the assembly is linked with Him in it, as we see in Ephesians 1:22, 23, where Psalm 8 is quoted. God has put all things under His feet and given Him to be Head over all things to the assembly which is His body, the fulness of Him who fills all in all. That is the downward aspect of His headship, as we might say. Adam is the type, and the woman associated with him. The light of God shines through the divinely-appointed Head to the whole creation. Psalm 22 has in view what is upward. It is a question of what is flowing back to God, beginning in the assembly, as we should say, in verse 22, but becoming universal. "All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn unto Jehovah ... For the kingdom is Jehovah's" (verses 27, 28). I think we need to take account of the two aspects of Christ's headship: one from God downwards, as typified in Adam, and the other, gathering

up the response of the universe Godward, as typified in David and Solomon. These are the two great activities of Christ in headship -- to make available to the whole creation the outshining of the blessed God, and then to gather up the response of the universe to His God.

W.J.S. And we are coming into the gain of that at the present moment? The service begins to take shape in Psalm 8, does it not?

G.R.C. Very good. "Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou established praise because of thine adversaries, to still the enemy and the avenger". It is a Gittith psalm, a psalm of pressure. The pressure lies in the fact that both the external and the internal enemies are there, as the note indicates. Both are present today, but in the midst of the pressure praise is perfected out of the mouth of babes and sucklings.

W.J.S. And the Lord quotes that, very near to the supreme moment of His suffering and pressure, does He not?

G.R.C. He does. He was approaching Gethsemane. The word is cognate with Gittith. To Him it meant pressure to the fullest measure. Psalm 22 indicates the depths of pressure into which Jesus went.

E.C.L. Would you say a word as to the bearing of death on what is due to God? According to Psalm 8 He was made a little lower than the angels, and Hebrews 2:9 adds "on account of the suffering of death". Psalm 22 indicates what death meant to Him. Does the death of Christ stand between the two eternities, as it were?

G.R.C. That is very touching. We have spoken of "from eternity to eternity". You are thinking that the cross stands in between?

E.C.L. How much God is going to get out of the last enemy of mankind in that way.

G.R.C. Has it not brought out the marvellous devotedness of the Christ, the Son of God, that He should have gone into such depths for the sake of His God? Do we not need to remember that Psalm 22 refers to the sufferings of Christ for the sake of His God? We know that they were necessary on our account, but they are viewed there as endured for the sake of His God, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" This glorious Man could say, "My God", in a way that no one else could ever say it. He said, "My God" as knowing God in the Absolute, and it was that very knowledge which meant such intense suffering for Him. He was going to face the sin question in the light of God known to Him in the Absolute.

E.C.L. Quite so. How much suffering it meant, in order that the glory of God might be maintained to the full. Yet praise could be secured only on that basis.

G.R.C. And so what is before Him is, "thou that dwellest amid the praises of Israel". God is said to dwell in other circumstances. He dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen, nor is able to see. He also dwells among His people in grace in the wilderness (2 Corinthians 6:16). But there is something very touching about this, "Thou that dwellest amid the praises of Israel". If He is to dwell with the creature, surely this is the most delightful setting -- to dwell amid the praises of the Israel of God. Because

of what He is -- God is love -- the desire to dwell with intelligent, responsive creatures was such that, though never ceasing to dwell in light unapproachable, He moved out into the realm of declaration and revelation. And so, in this psalm, so full of the Lord's sufferings, He says, "I will declare thy name" -- a most important matter connected with the purpose of God. The psalm contains these two great themes: the sufferings of Christ for the sake of His God, and coupled with it, "I will declare thy name unto my brethren".

W.McK. Are our minds to be impressed with the wonder and mystery of the incarnation, as that which is the basis of everything for God for time and eternity? Psalm 2 brings in the incarnation, and then in Psalm 22 He says, "I am a worm, and no man". How far He was prepared to go!

G.R.C. I think what you say about the incarnation is most important. "Thou art my Son; I this day have begotten thee" would refer to that; and thus God secured His Christ. God's Son is His Anointed.

W.J.S. Are you linking up Psalm 22:3, with verse 22? Does Israel suggest a princely setting, and the Lord Jesus, as prophetically speaking here, praises in the midst of a princely company?

G.R.C. I think so. We would have to link verse 3 with the Israel of God -- the assembly.

G.W.B. Is that why you asked for the title of Psalm 22 to be read?

G.R.C. I think the title is a reference prophetically to the assembly, 'To the chief Musician, upon Aijeleth-Shahar', which means 'the hind of the morning'.

W.S.S. Were you going to say something more about the declaration of the name?

J.J.T. Was not the Lord in haste to make known that name "from the horns of the buffaloes"?

G.R.C. "From the horns of the buffaloes hast thou answered me. I will declare thy name". Do you not think that God Himself also, was waiting for this moment?

J.J.T. Does it link with "my God and your God"?

G.R.C. I think so, but I wonder whether we ought to begin with Matthew 28:19 in thinking of "I will declare thy name". I am enquiring, as in all things, for help; but Matthew is a gospel where the Lord Jesus quotes from this psalm, saying, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Matthew 27:46), and the depth of His sufferings is stressed. Also it is the assembly gospel. The assembly in Matthew 16 is the vessel of praise. The gates of hades cannot prevail against it. Hades is the place of silence (see Isaiah 38:18), but the assembly's praises can never be silenced, as the praises of Zion have been. Hades' gates can never succeed in causing assembly praise to cease.

A.B. Referring to Matthew's gospel, would there be a foundation in holiness established in the death of Christ, so that God could answer Christ from the horns of the buffaloes? God is glorified in Christ, and then God answers Him, bringing Him out of death.

G.R.C. I think so. Therefore I wonder whether "I will declare thy name unto my brethren" would refer, in the first instance, to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in Matthew 28:19. The Lord Jesus calls the disciples His brethren in Matthew 28:10.

W.S.S. I had that in mind in asking the question. I feel what you are saying to us is going to help us greatly in the setting of this psalm, where the purpose and counsels of God are being secured. You could not think of a partial declaration, could you?

G.R.C. No. And so one would not shut out John 20:17 at all, which brings out so fully our association with Christ. In fact John 1:18 goes further than Psalm 22:22 in a way, because there it is declaring God, not simply declaring His name. "The only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him". And the word, 'declare' there has greater force, I think, than the word in Psalm 22. It is bringing out all that is to be known of God. But the Lord says here, "I will declare thy name", so I wondered whether we ought to make room for Matthew 28:19.

A.B. Does it involve an answer in praise to this wonderful declaration, involving all three Persons of the Godhead?

G.R.C. I think we ought to consider that. The Lord says, in spirit, "I will declare thy name", and at the end of Matthew He says, "baptising them to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit". That is not God as dwelling in unapproachable light, but as having come out in this most remarkable way.

H.A.H. Does it link with the introduction of the psalm, "My God, my God"?

G.R.C. I think we ought to keep in our minds that it is the sufferings of Christ for His God, and the declaring of the name of His God. The Father is involved in the name, but it is the name of His God. In Matthew He says, "the

name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit".

E.A.E. Would it link with Psalm 48:10, "According to thy name, O God, so is thy praise"? That would be the declaration of the name as we now have it -- Father, Son and Holy Spirit -- so that the praise would flow accordingly?

G.R.C. I would think that, but am enquiring for help.

A.A.B. Would we carry in our minds, in the spirit of worship, the greatness of the mediatorial position the Lord Jesus has taken? I am thinking of Psalm 22, and how He speaks in it, in the position of manhood -- the word "My God", involving the reality of His manhood.

G.R.C. It is the reality of His manhood, and yet He is the Man who is Jehovah's fellow, as the prophet says in connection with the sword awakening against Him. He was truly Man, a perfect Man, considering for His God, and going into the depths for His God, and yet they were depths that no one but a Person of the Godhead could ever have gone into. Is that so?

A.A.B. Yes. I would like to refer to Psalm 2:3 again, "Let us break their bonds asunder, and cast away their cords from us!" Is the bond between Jehovah and His Anointed seen in John's gospel?

G.R.C. You are thinking that Jehovah and His Anointed are really the Father and the Son? It is John who says, "he that is not subject to the Son shall not see life" (John 3:36); and again, that everyone who sees the Son and believes on Him should have life eternal.

H.A.H. Do you think the working out of what was in the heart of the Lord in Psalm 22 is seen throughout the books of the Psalms?

G.R.C. I would. I think what Mr. L. said about the psalm standing between the two eternities is most interesting. Everything worked to this, and from this. The two things: Christ going into the depths for His God, which was necessary to bring out what His God is in His nature and moral attributes; and then the declaring the name of His God. The name of Matthew 28:19 is a name of love and grace, conveying the way God has come out in order to effect His purpose. The operations of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, throughout this period are operations of love and grace.

R.S.W. Is it in relation to moral questions in Matthew?

G.R.C. If it were not for the operations of the Father, and the Son, and the Spirit, none of us would ever face the moral question. I do not think that name in itself involves the moral question; but if men were to come into the gain of God's purpose, the moral question had to be faced. Only the operations in grace of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, have ever succeeded in bringing persons to face the moral question.

S.H. You spoke of the blessedness of God earlier. Are you linking the declaring of the name with the blessedness of God made known to us?

G.R.C. I am. And I wonder whether we have apprehended sufficiently that there is only one Declarer of God, and only one Declarer of God's Name. What do you say to that?

S.H. We can see it according to Scripture.

G.R.C. Have we been too prone to search apostolic doctrine to understand the declaration of God? I can see that the apostles' doctrine is based on it and confirms it, but no apostle could say he declared God's name. Paul was a minister of the gospel to bring us into the gain of the declaration, and he was the minister of the assembly to bring about response to it, but he never says he was the declarer of God's name. Where must we go if we want to learn about God? Who must we go to?

M.H.T. Do you distinguish between the declaration of the name of God, and the proclamation of the name of Jehovah to Moses in Exodus 34:5 - 7? Jehovah's name is said to be proclaimed, "Jehovah, Jehovah God merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abundant in goodness and truth, keeping mercy unto thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, but by no means clearing the guilty".

G.R.C. Jehovah was, and is, His name; but the disclosure of that name is not said to be a declaration. While He was known to Israel as Jehovah, He dwelt in thick darkness. That name implied His faithfulness, yet Moses did not see His face, only His back parts. So that God had not come out. As far as men were concerned, He dwelt in thick darkness, although in His own Being He dwells in light unapproachable. But now He has come out in the fullest possible way in which He can be known to the creature. And so the Lord has declared His name, according to Matthew, if what we are saying is right; but John goes further in saying, "the only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him" (John 1:18).

This seems to me to go further than the declaring of the name. All that can be known of God has come out.

A.A.B. The pronoun "he" is emphatic. Does that support what you say as to there being only one Declarer?

G.R.C. Very good.

E.C.L. Is it also to be noted that it includes what is seen? "No one has seen God at any time; the only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared". Is it what has been set out personally, not only what has been spoken about of God in testimony?

G.R.C. I think so. So that while the name is the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit; when you go to John's gospel the Lord brings out very clearly who the Father is, and what He does. He does this to some extent in Matthew, but not in so full a way as in John. He also brings out clearly the truth of His own Person in John, and also the Personality of the Holy Spirit, and the bearing of these truths upon each other. And then, as you say, He says, "He that has seen me has seen the Father" (John 14:9) and "If ye had known me, ye would have known also my Father" (verse 7). The Father was dwelling in Him. John the baptist also saw the Spirit descending as a dove, and it abode upon Him. The fulness was there in Christ. Is that right?

E.C.L. Yes. It was different from a proclamation.

G.R.C. I wonder whether (I speak suggestively) we have paid enough attention to the fact that there is only one Declarer of God and of His name. It is what He has brought out that constitutes the declaration. Have we been inclined to search apostolic doctrine in order to get clear as to the Godhead, instead of giving due attention to what the

Lord Jesus Himself has said and expressed? Apostolic doctrine, of course, helps.

H.W. Would you look upon the whole of John's gospel as being, in a sense, the amplification of the name in Matthew 28:19? The whole of John brings before us the activities of each of the Divine Persons, and, whilst he does not refer to the formula of Matthew 28, the truth is given to us in a living kind of way?

G.R.C. That is what I had in mind. As to our coming into the fulness of the christian's place in association and union with Christ, He says, "I ascend to my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God".

H.W. John's gospel having come in so much later than Matthew's, the saints have this wonderful unfolding of the formula opened up in a living and spiritual kind of way.

G.R.C. Very good.

C.J.H.D. Is the 'hind of the morning' to be found spiritually in John 20 where the Lord says, "Woman"? It says at the beginning of that chapter, "Mary … comes in early morn to the tomb". She came into the light of the morning in regard of the Man?

G.R.C. Just so. Clearly Mary had the features of the hind of the morning, and those are features the Lord looks for in His assembly. It shows that the truth of union, the truth of the assembly's relations with Christ, must underlie the spiritual energy and alacrity that is needed to enter on to the highest levels of praise to God, in keeping with the Lord's words, "I ascend to my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God" (John 20:17).

M.H.T. Do we see not only the agility of the hind in Mary of Magdala, but also in what is said of Naphtali, "A hind let loose; He giveth goodly words" (Genesis 49:21)? No more goodly words were ever entrusted to a messenger than those that the Lord entrusted to Mary.

G.R.C. Very good. In Psalm 40 it says, "Sacrifice and oblation thou didst not desire: ears hast thou prepared me. Burnt-offering and sin-offering hast thou not demanded; Then said I, Behold, I come, in the volume of the book it is written of me -- To do thy good pleasure, my God, is my delight". Christ is the One in whom the purpose of God centres, so that in the roll of the book it is written of Him. This completes our contemplation, in this reading, of the glories of His Person, all having in view that He should become our Centre, and that there should be a resulting note of praise, "Blessed be Jehovah, the God of Israel, from eternity to eternity! Amen, and Amen".

THE HIGH PRAISES OF GOD (2)

G R Cowell

Psalm 42:1, 2; Psalm 45:1, 6 - 9; Psalm 48:1, 2, 8 - 10; Psalm 68:17, 18, 24, 32 - 35; Psalm 69:1, 2, 9; Psalm 72:18 - 20

G.R.C. It will be seen in the passages that we have read to what a large extent God, as such, is the theme of this second book. Not now so much as relative to His purpose, but as the One known to the saints in the way He has effectuated His purpose, both here in testimony and soon in the day of display. So the ascription of praise is, "Blessed be Jehovah Elohim, the God of Israel", that name Jehovah Elohim standing related particularly to His purpose as to man, "who alone doeth wondrous things!" It is a question of what He does. "And blessed be his glorious name for ever! and let the whole earth be filled with his glory! Amen, and Amen". The soul is looking on to the day of display, but blessing God as knowing Him already as the One who alone doeth wondrous things. That is, the soul understands what God has already effected in a testimonial way. The assembly is already here responsive to Christ in the light of what He is to her and she to Him, according to Psalm 45; and responsive to God in the light of what she is as the city of God according to Psalm 48. The assembly is already here and functioning. Psalm 68 brings out the victorious service of Christ, as the One who has ascended, but what is it but that He also descended, according to Psalm 69. He ascends in Psalm 68, but He is the One who also descended in Psalm 69 to bring all this

to pass. And so the book ends with this note of praise and worship to Jehovah Elohim, the God of Israel, "who alone doeth wondrous things!" in the appreciation of His glorious Name, not now simply as a declaration, but as understanding the operations of God, what He has effected. And then one might just add that the book begins with the soul panting after God. "As the hart panteth after the water-brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God". The Father has sought us in grace; the Son, too, the Lord Jesus, has sought us; and the Spirit has operated; but where a soul is divinely affected, it pants after God. Nothing will satisfy the soul of man as wrought upon by the Spirit, except God Himself. "When shall I come and appear before God?" This book shows how these pantings are satisfied, and therefore closes with "The prayers of David the son of Jesse are ended". Every longing is stilled, and met by the One who alone doeth wondrous things. He has so wrought that we know what it is to appear before God in the city of our God, the city of the great King. But I think the opening of the book confirms, from our side, what has been before us so much, that God is the ultimate. God is the ultimate in worship, but He is also the ultimate in the soul's longings. The soul who has not had the experience of appearing before God in holy splendour, suitable to Him in His majesty and greatness as God, has never tasted yet complete soul-satisfaction.

J.F.G. Would this be the outcome of understanding how God has moved according to His purpose and counsel, the soul coming into the gain of that?

G.R.C. That is what I thought. The first book indicates the purpose of God, and the Man of His purpose. But in

this book it is the God who effects His purpose, who alone doeth wondrous things. So that the assembly comes to light, we might say, in a substantial way in Psalm 45 and Psalm 48, firstly as the queen, standing in relation to Christ, and secondly as the city of the great King, standing related to God.

A.M. Does this psalm represent a state of soul pleasing to God over against the assumption of Korah?

G.R.C. It does. The sons of Korah figure much in this book. They refer to the saints as vessels of mercy. God has been pleased to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He had before prepared for glory, us, whom He has also called. Sovereign mercy is the basis of our relations with God, as God. The sense of that in the soul underlies the experiences of this book.

G.W.B. Is your thought that these longings of the soul find their answer in the assembly?

G.R.C. Yes. "My soul thirsteth for God, for the living God: when shall I come and appear before God?" Where can we appear before God, thoroughly in keeping with all that He is, but in the assembly?

W.S.S. Would Psalm 43:3, 4 help? "Send out thy light and thy truth: they shall lead me, they shall bring me to thy holy mount, and unto thy habitations. Then will I go unto the altar of God, unto the God of the gladness of my joy: yea, upon the harp will I praise thee, O God, my God".

G.R.C. That is very beautiful.

W.McK. Does Romans work out the pantings of the soul after God, and do the doxologies indicate the way that the soul reaches God?

G.R.C. That is very good. God is the great theme of Romans, just as God is the great theme of Ephesians. Paul's ministry shows the way we may come and appear before God. Paul experienced it, perhaps, as no other man has done, and his doxologies indicate his appreciation of the God before whom he appeared.

J.F.P. I was thinking of the deep sense of mercy Paul had according to 1 Timothy 1:13, and the satisfied longings of his soul rising up in the great ascription of praise and worship to God in verse 17.

G.R.C. 1 Timothy deals with the house of God, which is the assembly of the living God. As you say Paul says, "mercy was shewn me", and within a few verses he is saying, "to the King of the ages, the incorruptible, invisible, only God, honour and glory to the ages of ages. Amen".

F.J.D. Would you say what is in mind in the living God?

G.R.C. I suppose it is in contrast to the deadness of idolatry and of judaism. It is a most attractive expression. Jesus is the Son of the living God -- we are called Sons of the living God (Romans 9:26), and the assembly is the assembly of the living God.

W.J.S. The Thessalonians turned to God from idols to serve a living and true God.

A.B. Would the praise of God be enriched by experience with God? The psalmist says, "God my rock", then "God of my strength" and "the God of the gladness of my joy".

G.R.C. It would. The third book especially deals with the side of experience, as we may see in our next reading.

It enriches the response to God. There must be experience with God.

W.J.S. I believe the earliest reference to God in this way is in Joshua 3:10, "Hereby shall ye know that the living God is in your midst". It is in connection with the Ark going into the Jordan.

R.F.D. Would "from eternity to eternity" be a suggestion as to the living God -- the One that abides?

G.R.C. Yes. And does it not suggest living affections? The living God could only be satisfied with a world of life, a world of living response.

A.B. Does the indwelling of the Holy Spirit have any bearing on soul thirst after God? The Lord met it in John 4, going on to the thought of "God is a Spirit; and they who worship him must worship him in spirit and truth".

G.R.C. That is very good. The thirst of the human soul can only be met in God Himself, and that is met in this dispensation, by the gift of the Holy Spirit.

W.C.P. Do you think there is a link with that in the welling forth in Psalm 45? Does that suppose that the soul has the gain of the Spirit?

G.R.C. I think it does. It is a living touch. As to Psalm 45, it is a great thing to take account of what is actually effected and existing here in the scene of testimony, and soon to be displayed. The God who alone doeth wondrous things has operated in such a manner that the assembly is here. The heading of the psalm is 'Upon Shoshannim', which means 'lilies'. It refers to the purity, chastity and fragrance, of those that form the assembly. It is a vessel composed of such.

W.J.S. In John 4 there was a soul panting, and what a testimony she was able to render as having her thirst satisfied: "Come see a man".

G.R.C. I think the first element of satisfaction is to see that Man, the Man of Psalm 45. "Is not he the Christ?" (John 4:29). We are then on the way to having every thirst of our souls met. In the first instance we need the Man, and we need to understand our relationship with the Man, through whom alone we can come and appear before God.

C.J.H.D. The Man really is the answer to that enquiry in Joshua. Joshua goes on to say, "Behold, the ark of the covenant of the Lord of all the earth is going over before you" (Joshua 3:11). Is not that the proof of the living God being in the midst, and might it not be linked with Ephesians 5:14, "Wake up, thou that sleepest, and arise up from among the dead, and the Christ shall shine upon thee"? Is the Christ, as apprehended according to Psalm 45 in His glorious shining, the answer to the deadness around us?

G.R.C. Very good. The shining of the Christ is the true christian light, is it not?

J.J.T. Is one of the wondrous things that God does in Psalm 45 that He anoints the Lord with the oil of gladness above His companions?

G.R.C. He is singled out because of who He is -- He is God: "Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever" but then He is singled out, too, in His perfect and glorious manhood, as anointed by God. "Therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee". It shows how the Deity and manhood of Christ are blended in Scripture, and the need for flexibility of mind, in the power of the Spirit, to apprehend

the truth of His Person. On the one hand He is God, and, as Man enthroned, is saluted as God. Yet, immediately afterwards, He is referred to as the Man anointed by His God on account of moral qualifications.

E.C.L. Do you think we have to appreciate Christ as Man to understand the greatness of God? I was thinking of the way the Lord used the expression "My God". The more we appreciate the Man, the more wonderful His God must be; and His God is our God.

G.R.C. Quite so. Much depends upon our apprehension of the Christ, the Man of God's purpose. Christianity takes its name from that title, and christians themselves take their name from it. It has given character to christianity in its testimonial setting. The church's links with Him stand related to it, for the union of the church is with Christ. It shows the importance of understanding the official greatness of Christ -- the Man.

H.A.H. Would this be the normal way of having part in the service of God, from satisfied hearts welling forth with a good matter?

G.R.C. Yes, and the first thing is hearts satisfied and welling forth because of their occupation touching the King. The King here is Christ.

W.S.S. In that connection would you say a word on the last clause of the heading, 'A song of the Beloved'? The question would be as to Christ being the Beloved of our hearts, would it?

G.R.C. It is really the language of the assembly, is it not?

W.S.S. That is what I was thinking, but then it must be the language of each heart individually?

G.R.C. It must be. The King is also the Beloved in the Song of Songs. It is because the King is the Beloved that He has such sway over the people, and can hold them all for God.

W.S.S. I was thinking, too, that it brings us into communion with the Father in regard to the Son.

G.R.C. I am sure that is right. He says, "Behold my servant whom I uphold, mine elect in whom my soul delighteth! I will put my Spirit upon him" (Isaiah 42:1). That is the Christ, is it not? The Father's soul finds its delight in Him and our souls find their delight in Him. That gives us a 'lily' character. As the saints are marked by the character of lilies, the assembly as the chaste virgin comes into view, I think. Lilies suggest chastity.

W.H.K. Are you thinking of this psalm in connection with our service on the Lord's Day morning; the entrance into, and enjoyment of, union helping us to appear before God rightly, gloriously?

G.R.C. Exactly. It prepares for Psalm 48.

A.B. Would it bring in the greatness of the assembly as the vessel in which the various glories of Christ are given expression to in praise?

G.R.C. The varied glories brought out here afford material for expansion in the power of the Spirit in our service of praise to Christ. What He is in His moral perfection; what He is in His military prowess; what He is as on the throne and as wielding the sceptre; what He is as anointed with the oil of gladness above His companions; and then what He is in the palace; in the inner place, are all features of glory which stimulate praise.

H.W.S. What is the thought of 'instruction' in connection with this?

G.R.C. Does it not afford instruction as to the response in praise of the assembly to Christ?

E.C.L. Do you think the way the new covenant is added in the Supper to the breaking of bread has some relation to the way God comes into His own through Christ, Christ having His own glory in connection with it?

G.R.C. Would you mind saying more as to the new covenant?

E.C.L. I thought the new covenant would mean that what God has set out to do will be established. Does not the assembly hold these thoughts for the time being, until the day of actuality? Christ's glory in that connection is held by faith in fulness, and satisfies the heart of the assembly?

G.R.C. So that from the standpoint of our relations with Christ, Psalm 45 brings satisfaction to our longing souls and the Lord Jesus has what His heart is seeking in the assembly, even so far as to anticipate the time when the queen will stand on His right hand. Actually, I suppose, that is future but anticipated now, because, according to Ephesians 1, He is head over all things to the assembly, which is His body, the fulness of Him who fills all in all. The Spirit is here that we might enter into this in our spirits now, and that there might be an answer to Christ commensurate with it.

E.C.L. I was thinking that. Sometimes the covenant is just slurred over, but it has been added to the breaking of bread for a reason?

G.R.C. Do you think it is important that in 1 Corinthians 11:25 the Lord says, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood", not adding there, "which is poured out for you"? Is He not anticipating that the assembly will have an appreciation of all that He has secured for God on the basis of His blood? The universe of bliss is secured on that basis.

A.T.G. Do you mean that there is something additional in the reference to the new covenant in the epistles to the Corinthians, as over against the references in the Old Testament?

G.R.C. I think the Lord is stressing His blood. I think in the Supper, He stresses "my body" and "my blood". As to His body, He says, "This is my body, which is for you" (1 Corinthians 11:24), because His body could not be said to have been given for any company except the assembly. But when He speaks of "my blood", I think He would count on the assembly having some understanding of the vast effects of His blood-shedding.

J.W.G. Is it a wider thought than "poured out for you" in Luke 22:20, involving the whole system of glory based on the redemptive work of Christ?

G.R.C. Quite so. We have to remember, of course, the scripture, that God purchased the assembly with the blood of His own (Ephesians 20:28). But it does seem to me that, according to 1 Corinthians 11, in referring to His blood in the Supper, the Lord counted on our intelligent affections apprehending the vast scope of things which has been affected by His blood. According to Colossians 1:19, 20, "in him all the fulness … was pleased to dwell, and by him

to reconcile all things to itself, having made peace by the blood of his cross".

A.W.P. Have you the tabernacle system in mind? The whole system was sprinkled with blood.

G.R.C. Yes, I think the Lord would count on us having some apprehension of the whole system of glory. The assembly has her own place in it. To give the psalm a present application, she is the queen.

G.H.S.P. The literal blood-shedding of Christ is, I think, only recorded in John's gospel. I thought that put it in a most exalted setting. It confirms what you were saying, that the references to the blood need to be elevated in our minds, and in the place that they may have in our service Godward.

G.R.C. So in Ephesians 1:6, 7 it is the blood of the Beloved, is it not? "He has taken us into favour in the Beloved: in whom we have redemption through his blood".

E.S. Hebrews 9:14 suggests that we worship the living God on the basis of it. "How much rather shall the blood of the Christ, who by the eternal Spirit offered himself spotless to God, purify your conscience from dead works to worship the living God?"

G.R.C. We could have no access to God, as God, apart from the blood of the Christ.

W.S.S. I am very interested in what you have been saying about the cup and the covenant. It has been very much in one's mind of late that the Lord would carry our minds into the fulness of what has been secured. It is opened out to us in a wonderful way as we are together.

W.H.K. "This do, as often as ye shall drink it, in remembrance of me" (1 Corinthians 11:25). Would that widen our consideration of all the glories that belong to Christ?

G.R.C. Yes. We are calling Him to mind relative to the whole system of blessing, which rests upon the immutable foundation of His blood. And that greatly magnifies Him.

C.J.H.D. The celebration in heaven in Revelation 5:9, 10 is wonderful. "Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open its seals; because thou hast been slain, and hast redeemed to God, by thy blood, out of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation, and made them to our God kings and priests".

H.A.H. Yet the inward position as seen in the palace, is far greater to the heart of Christ than outward glory.

G.R.C. It is. Only very favoured people have access to the palace, but the queen, of course, has a right to be there in every way. She is all glorious within the royal apartments.

H.A.H. That would go beyond the teaching in first Corinthians?

G.R.C. It would. The Supper is really the doorway into the inward side of things, is it not? In the Song of Songs 1:4 the spouse says, "The king hath brought me into his chambers". So this song ends up with what is within the palace.

A.M. Would you say a word about the joy entering into the service? It is stressed here. What I notice is that it is the Lord's joy. It refers to the oil of gladness, and then "stringed instruments have made thee glad". The service begins with our joy, "The disciples rejoiced therefore"

(John 20:20), but our fullest joy is to sense His joy, is it not?

G.R.C. I am sure that is right. Verse 15 goes back to the joy of the saints, "With joy and gladness shall they be brought". But, as you say, the greatest joy we have is to take account of His joy, although the whole scene is one of gladness. He is anointed with the oil of gladness above His companions. They are all anointed with the oil of gladness; there is not a sad face there. Nehemiah indicates that it was not right even to appear before an earthly monarch with a sad face (Nehemiah 2:1, 2). No one appears before God, properly speaking, with a sad face. All appear before God as anointed with the oil of gladness, but then the Lord Jesus is supreme.

M.H.T. Is it striking that in this love psalm, as you might term it, attention is drawn, in the first place, to the beauty of Christ as the One who is fairer than the sons of men. Then, in the second place, to the beauty of the assembly, as dissociating herself from past history? "And the king will desire thy beauty". We have in one of our hymns, 'All fair art Thou, Lord Jesus, Th' assembly too all fair' (Hymn 487).

G.R.C. "The king will desire thy beauty; for he is thy Lord, and worship thou him;" and then it goes on further, "All glorious is the king's daughter within" -- within the royal apartments. What a fitting companion for the king!

C.J.H.D. Has she not known His right hand according to the Song of Songs 2:6 in another relation? It says there "his right hand doth embrace me". Does that not capacitate her to stand in queenly grace at His right hand, because there has been the intimacy of affection?

G.R.C. Yes, I am sure. And then as we are responsive to Christ in this marital way, does it not prepare us for the service of God? The psalms immediately introduce the city of God. Psalm 46 is the city in a hostile setting, yet "God is in the midst of her; she shall not be moved" (verse 5), and Emmanuel is known there, "Jehovah of hosts is with us" (verse 7). The assembly is now the vessel of administration in the scene of testimony, and the language of Psalm 46 can therefore be applied to her as here as in adverse conditions. Psalm 47 and 48 lead on to the greatness of God, and of the assembly as standing in relation to God.

D.S.H. You were speaking earlier of Christ as the King in Psalm 45. Do you think there is a difference in Psalm 48?

G.R.C. Yes. In Psalm 48 God is the King. Christ has His part in that, of course, because He is God. But the presentation of God as King is a very great matter. It is not now Christ viewed as King, as the Man anointed of God, but God Himself as the King. And so Psalm 47:6 - 8 says, "Sing psalms of God, sing psalms; sing psalms unto our King, sing psalms! For God is the King of all the earth; sing psalms with understanding. God reigneth over the nations; God sitteth upon the throne of his holiness". And then the next psalm says, "Great is Jehovah, and greatly to be praised in the city of our God, in the hill of his holiness. Beautiful in elevation, the joy of the whole earth, is mount Zion, on the sides of the north, the city of the great King". What a great thing it would be if we understood the assembly better as the city of the great King, God Himself being the great King.

C.J.H.D. Would you say a word as to the Father and our ministering to Him on the way, as it were, to the great climax of God?

G.R.C. Does not the appreciation of Christ as the Beloved turn our thoughts to the Father? He is our Beloved; but we think of the Father's delight in Him, and our hearts are led to the Father. We worship the Father, and enjoy our place in the Father's house, and the blessedness of being loved by the Father, with the love wherewith He loves the Son. Each side of the truth is incomparably great. How blessed is our place in the Father's house, "that where I am ye also may be" (John 14:3). But then the city of God is another side of the truth. It is not our place in the Father's house, but God's place, the place where He is praised. The Father's house is the inner side of things, but the service of praise is going on now in the time of testimony and will soon find full expression in the scene of display. But what is going on now in the time of testimony should be worthy of the great King.

A.B. Does that show the peculiar blessedness of God being among His people in hostile circumstances? There is a reference in Psalm 46 to the sanctuary of the habitations of the Most High, and then it says (verse 5), "God is in the midst of her; she shall not be moved: God shall help her at the dawn of the morning". God is among His people in the scene of the enemy's power.

G.R.C. Yes, so that these psalms are very much in line with Matthew's gospel; the King, that is Christ Himself, and what He has in the assembly; and then what the assembly is as the city of the great King. The Lord uses

that term in His teaching in Matthew 5:35. He was referring primarily to the earthly Jerusalem; and yet surely the assembly would not be absent from His mind, for the assembly is in view all through that gospel.

A.A.G. Is not the response to God, as such, carried on in the intimacy of the knowledge of the Father's love?

G.R.C. I think it is. The Father's house is privilege. The Lord says, "I go to prepare you a place" (John 14:2). The place of privilege and intimacy equips us for our part in the assembly as the great vessel of responsibility. I am not referring to what it is as a responsible vessel down here. I am viewing it abstractly in relation to Christ, as the vessel which is entrusted with responsibilities which no other vessel in the universe ever will be called upon to fulfil, and in the fulfilment of which there will be no breakdown. And, in that sense, she is the city of the great King, that is, of God Himself. And the city is an inclusive idea, because it says in the verse already referred to, "the city of God, the sanctuary of the habitations of the Most High". The city includes the sanctuary and the habitations.

E.C.L. Would the light of the city of God according to Psalm 48 affect all the gatherings of the saints?

G.R.C. I think we touch it in the fullest way as we pass, in spirit, out of the scene of time and locality, in the power of the Holy Spirit. In our response to Christ we pass in spirit out of time and locality. We respond to Him in the light of the church complete; and similarly in regard to God. As the city of the great King, we are viewing the assembly in its full place and dignity according to the purpose of God.

E.C.L. Is not the city usually linked with administration?

G.R.C. It is, but we must also see that the city is an inclusive idea. It includes the sanctuary. It says, "in the city of our God, in the hill of his holiness", and His praise is connected with it. This is really the service of the sanctuary, but it is taking place in this vessel which is called the city of the great King. It implies that the administrative side has been attended to. There is fulfilled responsibility as to administration, and now it is a question of the praise of God -- "Great is Jehovah, and greatly to be praised in the city of our God, in the hill of his holiness". And again, "We have thought, O God, of thy loving-kindness, in the midst of thy temple". We cannot dissociate the thought of the city and the temple and the sanctuary. The city is the over-all thought, which includes administration, and, as administration is carried out and fulfilled, God's praise is secured in this great vessel. But the whole matter is worthy of the great King.

H.A.H. Does Psalm 48 present it in a military setting, as impregnable?

G.R.C. Quite so.

R.S.W. Does it afford satisfaction for divine affections? The term new Jerusalem is mentioned in Revelation.

G.R.C. Yes. The city goes into eternity, the holy city, new Jerusalem. It is the centre of light and influence eternally. Its eternal responsibility is, on the one hand, to maintain in integrity the praise due to God in His greatness. So that, in the presence of the whole universe, glory, honour and majesty are fully ascribed to Him, the

Great King. On the other hand, it is to diffuse the light of God, and thus influence the whole universe -- that is the administrative side. Of course, while evil is present, administration has to take on a military character, but in the eternal state evil will not be present. Nevertheless it is still the city, and still the city of the Great King, as I understand it, because the word in Revelation 21:5 is, "He that sat on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new". The throne is still there, and the great King is sitting upon it, and the holy city, new Jerusalem, is His city, all through eternity, as I understand it.

A.W.P. Do you still connect government with it?

G.R.C. In the way of light and influence, yes. It is the great diffuser of divine light and influence to the universe. But then internally it is the great centre of praise, and fills out the praise of the universe to God. So "Great is Jehovah, and greatly to be praised in the city of our God". I believe the assembly is the vessel which will have a leading part in the praises of the universe, as herself led by Christ, all through eternity. She is the city of the great King. She is in every way worthy of the great King, and enclosed in that city, as it were, is the temple, the sanctuary, and the garden. All that is connected with the great King is there.

D.S.H. Why do we get this reference to the loving kindness of God in verse 9?

G.R.C. Has not everything depended upon that? What have you in mind?

D.S.H. Well, I was wondering if the appreciation of that is a basic thing in connection with the praise of God. Perhaps we may tend to associate God's loving-kindness

more with our daily circumstances than with the highest and loftiest thoughts of it.

G.R.C. It seems to me the more we apprehend God, as God, in His greatness and majesty, the greater will be our appreciation of the mercy and loving-kindness that have fitted us to be in the presence of such a great and glorious God. We are vessels of mercy before prepared for glory.

W.J.S. He is the God that the sons of Korah appreciated.

G.R.C. Quite so.

G.W.B. Does the thought in the Psalms go as far as the tabernacle of God with men?

G.R.C. That would be another view of the same vessel. On the public side it is the holy city, new Jerusalem, and in that setting prepared as a bride adorned for her husband, showing that those two thoughts go together. What the assembly is to Christ bridally, and what she is to God city-wise are linked together. Psalm 45 and Psalm 48 go together in that respect. But the tabernacle of God is the inner life, the inward side of things, where we know the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, in personal relations. There is the inward side all the time; but what we are thinking of now is the testimonial side in praise. God has now, and will have in the world to come, and will have in eternity, a vessel capable of ascribing the worship and honour due to Him as the great King.

W.J.S. The end of Psalm 48 says, "For this God is our God for ever and ever". What a glorious consummation that is. And so it says, "According to thy name, O God, so is thy praise unto the ends of the earth". There is a vessel that can fully praise God according to His name.

G.R.C. It is the God known to us by the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Yet the disclosure of this Name does not mean that other names, each of which express some attribute and glory of Deity, are discarded. "Thy name" would be the aggregated wealth of all.

W.McK. Would you say that, while the assembly is a creature vessel, there will be no possibility of breakdown in the praise of God?

G.R.C. That is just it. It has impressed me, that the assembly is the great vessel of fulfilled responsibility, all through eternity. There is no other creature vessel with such responsibilities allotted to it as the assembly. Yet she will never break down, because, as the assembly in Christ Jesus, she is united to Christ, and, in the support of His love, and the power of the Spirit, she will fulfil every responsibility allotted to her. All will be carried out without breakdown.

G.H.M. Would you say what is conveyed by Revelation 21:22, "I saw no temple in it; for the Lord God Almighty is its temple, and the Lamb"?

G.R.C. It seems that there is such nearness to God Himself in that city that there is no need for a building. In an ordinary city of men you need a temple in which to approach God. In the earthly Jerusalem there is the temple. But the saints of this dispensation are themselves the shrine of God, for the Spirit of God dwells in them (1 Corinthians 3:16). So John sees no temple in the heavenly Jerusalem. God Himself is its temple, and the Lamb.

A.T.G. Why does it say, "thy right hand is full of righteousness" (Psalm 48:10)?

G.R.C. That is a great feature with God. The stability of the whole universe of bliss depends on righteousness.

A.T.G. Does it refer at all to the basis in the blood of Christ that we have had in mind before?

G.R.C. The foundation has been laid in the death of Christ and now 'God's righteousness with glory bright' (Hymn 88) is the basis of all His actings in grace. There would be no stability, no solid basis for the universe of bliss, apart from righteousness. His right hand is full of righteousness, and that is a great matter about which to praise God. The Son, in speaking to the Father in John 17:25 says, "Righteous Father". All His purpose of love is carried through in righteousness.

W.H.K. In the new heavens and the new earth righteousness dwells.

A.M. Does righteousness link up with the acts of Jehovah? I was thinking of what you were pressing, "who alone doeth wondrous things".

G.R.C. All His acts are righteous.

J.F.P. Would not the reference to the city as new, in Revelation 21:2 confirm what you have been saying as to its eternal character? It goes through the intensive administration of the thousand years, and is seen as perennially fresh at the end.

G.R.C. That is very beautiful -- "prepared as a bride adorned for her husband", and the tabernacle of God. There is eternal freshness and fragrance.

I think we ought to pass on now to Psalm 68. All that has engaged us has been brought to pass by the One who has ascended, and if He ascended, what is it but that He also descended into the lower parts of the earth. Psalm 68

gives the ascension, and Psalm 69 His descent. Psalm 69 is 'Upon Shoshannim', which is 'lilies', showing that, as we respond to Him according to Psalm 45, which is upon lilies, so correspondingly, as true to Him, we shall bear reproach in the testimonial position. We are rejoicing, according to this book of psalms, in what God has already established testimonially. The assembly is really here. But then it involves a position of reproach. And the lily character manifests itself in fragrant response to the Lord according to Psalm 45, and in sharing His reproach according to Psalm 69, where it says, "The zeal of thy house hath devoured me, and the reproaches of them that reproach thee have fallen upon me". So that one would like to encourage one's own heart to be more ready for reproach, because it helps to develop the lily character with us. In the morning meeting we shall be more at home in the presence of the King, if we learn during the week to suffer with Him.

S.H. Are you thinking of the Song, "As the lily among thorns, So is my love among the daughters" (Song of Songs 2:2)? But she is not allowed to stay in that position for long. She shares the glory of the banqueting house, and so on.

G.R.C. Very good. How could she be other than a lily among thorns in the scene where all the reproach is cast upon her Beloved? We need to be faithful to the Lord in the scene of reproach, where He is the song of the drunkards (Psalm 69:12). Our danger is too much respectability. It has been said, that the first elements of decline are ease and respectability. You cannot be in the

eyes of men a respectable person if you are following Christ.

W.H.K. And how could she be "Perfumed with myrrh and frankincense, With all powders of the merchant" (Song of Songs 3:6), if she did not share the sufferings?

G.R.C. Quite so.

W.McK. You have referred a good deal to Matthew's gospel. Is it to be noted that Matthew stresses eating in the Supper? I wondered if that would build up a constitution to take part in these reproaches that fell upon Christ?

G.R.C. I think it would. It would strengthen us for the will of God here would it not? It is the will of God that we should bear the reproach of Christ. But then it is greatly encouraging to have Psalm 68 in our minds in all this -- the Lord has ascended; and all that we have spoken about, as having been secured by the God who alone doeth wondrous things, has been secured through the complete victory of Christ. He has dealt with every foe in every way, and has ascended up on high and led captivity captive, and received gifts in Man; and it is through the exercise of these gifts that the assembly has been brought to pass in a practical way here on earth. God is doing wondrous things still through the gifts from the ascended Man, so that the assembly should be here in all its features, functioning, both as the bride of Christ, and as the city of God.

C.J.H.D. I wondered if you would take us on to the matter of "the dwelling there of Jah Elohim" (verse 18), which is a very great title, and does it not link with the title Lord God in Revelation 22:5?

G.R.C. That is very interesting indeed. While our prepared place is in the Father's house, God's prepared place is in the assembly. Jah Elohim has a place, as we may say, worthy of Him. Is that so?

C.J.H.D. I was wondering whether Jeremiah's beautiful description of God does not fit in with what you have in mind. "Jehovah Elohim is truth; he is the living God, and the King of eternity" (Jeremiah 10:10).

W.J.S. Does not verse 18 show the way the sons of Korah came into things, "and even for the rebellious, for the dwelling there of Jah Elohim". Saul of Tarsus was such a one. The living God secured a man like Saul and brought him into the assembly setting.

G.R.C. I would like to make another suggestion in connection with this psalm. The word translated Lord is Adonai. 'The Adonai gives the word' (verse 11), and, 'The Adonai is among them' (verse 17). He is the One who has ascended on high, and He is operating for the dwelling of Jah Elohim. It says, 'Blessed be the Adonai' (verse 19), and in verse 22, 'the Adonai said, I will bring again from Bashan, I will bring them again from the depth of the sea', and then in verse 32, 'Ye kingdoms of the earth, sing unto God; sing psalms of the Adonai'. It seems to be a title that attaches in a remarkable way to Christ. Of course, He is also Jehovah of hosts, as in Psalm 24, but in this psalm He is referred to as Adonai, as also in Psalm 110:5, 'the Adonai at thy right hand'. I am wondering whether we have limited too much the idea of lordship in Christ to what He is as made Lord. My impression is that lordship in Christ, as seen in Ephesians, runs into the truth of His Person. It is true that "God has made him, this Jesus ...

both Lord and Christ" (Acts 2:36). But viewed from this standpoint, "Thou hast ascended on high" -- the view of lordship in Ephesians -- well, who could ascend up on high? No one less than the Adonai. Who else could be victorious like this and lead captivity captive?

B.G.H. Would verse 26 confirm that?

G.R.C. 'In the congregations bless ye God, the Adonai'. You are thinking of the word God inserted there? It is a remarkable expression. I have noticed lately that Mr. Darby links every reference to Adonai in this psalm with the Lord Jesus. ⁺

W.H.K. Does the reference to ascension stand connected with what He is in His own Person?

G.R.C. That is what I am thinking. And my own impression is that lordship in Ephesians runs into the truth of His Person. "Be strong in Lord, and in the might of His strength" (Ephesians 6:10). It is the Adonai really, I would say, the One who ascended up on high, who ascended above all heavens.

W.J.S. What does that word convey to you?

G.R.C. I think it is a word that specially conveys lordship and rule. It is a name and title of God in the Old Testament. It is often used of God as such, but in this psalm it particularly relates to Christ. It refers to the position of authority that He has, not because He is made Lord, but because lordship is His in the right of His own Person. Adon is a word that means Lord or Master, but when applied to God, as it always is in its plural form (Adonai) in Scripture, it is a very strong expression

⁺ J.N.D., Notes and Comments, Volume 3, page 153

emphasising the rights of God over His people. It is a kind of office or position, but which implies Deity in the One who holds it.

D.W.M. Is it rather remarkable that the Lord finally silenced the opposition in Matthew 22 by quoting from Psalm 110?

G.R.C. Yes. "Jehovah said unto my Lord [Adon], Sit at my right hand" (Psalm 110:1), and then the same Person is referred to in verse 5, 'the Adonai at thy right hand'.

H.W.S. In Revelation 5:5 you have "the lion which is of the tribe of Juda, the root of David, has overcome". Would that be a similar thought, implying His Deity?

G.R.C. It is remarkable how the deity of Christ is interwoven in Scripture with His manhood. They are put side by side repeatedly, as in the passage you quote.

S.E.W. The last presentation of Himself to the assembly in Revelation 22:16 is as the root of David, "the root and offspring of David, the bright and morning star" and immediately it says, "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come".

G.R.C. And I believe that is how this book of Psalms ends. The last psalm, Psalm 72, is for Solomon, and Solomon is typical of Him who is the root and offspring of David.

W.McK. Is it your thought that the tendency has been to regard lordship in an official way, but, as you are speaking of it now, it would link our hearts up more definitely with His Person?

G.R.C. The Lord Jesus is Lord in the right of His own Person, as well as on account of what He has been made as Man. I think this title Adonai belongs to Him in the

greatness of the authority He now wields. He wields it not only as made Lord, as Peter says in Acts 2 when he is referring to Jesus of Nazareth, whom they had crucified, but also as the One who has ascended up on high, and has led captivity captive. What authority He has! He has led captivity captive, and received gifts in Man.

R.W.S. Does not Hebrews 1:10 confirm that? "And, Thou in the beginning, Lord, hast founded the earth, and works of thy hands are the heavens".

C.J.H.D. So according to Psalm 45, worship is to be addressed to Him by the assembly. "He is thy Lord [Adon], and worship thou him".

G.R.C. Quite so.

H.A.H. The descent was the action of a divine Person and the ascent was the action of a divine Person? He came down from heaven. "If then ye see the Son of man ascending up where he was before?" (John 6:62).

G.R.C. All this enters into what is said here, "They have seen thy goings, O God, the goings of my God, my King, in the sanctuary". The psalm ends with a remarkable ascription of praise to God, ending up with "He it is that giveth strength and might unto the people. Blessed be God!" And that is what we need. He is the God who alone doeth wondrous things, and one of the things He does is to give strength and might to the people, so that we can stand in the presence of the greatness of God and ascribe to Him what is His due.

THE HIGH PRAISES OF GOD (3)

G R Cowell

Psalm 73:1, 2, 17, 25, 26; Psalm 77:13, 19, 20; Psalm 78:65 - 72; Psalm 84:1 - 7; Psalm 87:1 - 7; Psalm 89:6, 8, 15, 19, 52

G.R.C. In considering the third book we should note, at the outset, that the doxology at the close is to God personally. It is not God relative to His purpose, nor to what He has done. The book ends with this simple yet moving outburst, "Blessed be Jehovah for evermore!" and it unfolds His ways with the saints in order that we might come to a profound appreciation of the blessedness of God Himself. Thus the doxology is addressed to God in a personal way, and the book unfolds His personal dealings with us, and His provision for us, so that we might come into the truth substantially and experimentally. The earlier books have dealt with His purpose, and the effectuation of it, but now it is a question of our being brought into the present gain of His purpose. The importance of this is apparent, because it is the will of God that those who will soon be actually in the place that He has purposed for them, should be there as having an experimental knowledge of Himself, and a profound appreciation of Himself. What we learn of God in this way will remain as substance in our souls, and enrich His praise throughout eternity.

The book, therefore, begins with the experiences of a soul, but as bearing on God's general dealings with Israel, "Truly God is good to Israel, to such as are of a pure

heart". Whatever appearances may seem, God is good and He has only good in view. And then Asaph recounts his experiences, "As for me, my feet were almost gone, my steps had well nigh slipped". But at the end of the psalm he can say, "Whom have I in the heavens? and there is none upon earth I desire beside thee". That is the great end God has in view in His dealings with us. He is going to fill heaven with people to whom He is everything. God is going to be all in all. We can therefore understand that His operations at the present time are to reach with us the end that the psalmist arrives at, "Whom have I in the heavens? and there is none on earth I desire beside thee. My flesh and my heart faileth: God is the rock of my heart and my portion for ever". God will fill heaven with people who have learned to use language like that.

The other psalms bring out in more detail the tenderness of God's dealings with His people, first in leading them like a flock by the hand of Moses and Aaron. The book is not presenting Christ so much in what He effects for God, but rather as provided by God, in His tender consideration, for us. So He leads His people in the wilderness like a flock by the hand of Moses and Aaron. In the next psalm He chose David, and took him from the sheepfolds and brought him to feed Jacob His people and Israel His inheritance in the land. How considerate of God to raise up such a Person as this -- first as typified in Moses and Aaron, and then in David. Then the experience with God which this book contemplates leads us greatly to value the house of God, so that His house becomes our home. It becomes the most precious place on earth to the believer, more precious than his own home. "A day in thy

courts is better than a thousand" (Psalm 84:10). And then His city becomes so precious to us that we speak of it, "Glorious things are spoken of thee, O city of God" (Psalm 87:3). This is not God speaking about the city exactly, but what we can say about it, through experience. And he ends Psalm 87 with, "All my springs are in thee". So I think we can see in these psalms that God is bringing us into things practically and experimentally, in such a manner that when we come to the last psalm we can say, "Who in the heaven can be compared to Jehovah?" (Psalm 89:6). There is no one like Jehovah, this blessed God we have learned in such a personal and experimental way.

G.H.M. Does Romans give us the relations of God with men? Is that why it is so experimental?

G.R.C. Romans is a very experimental book. We arrive at sonship experimentally in chapter 8. We prove experimentally, as sons, the good and acceptable and perfect will of God in chapter 12, do we not?

S.H. In referring to God having to do with us personally, have you in mind that the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, are committed to us in such intimate exercises in view of arriving at what you have said?

G.R.C. I have. That brings up the consideration of this name Jehovah, does it not? "Blessed be Jehovah for evermore! Amen, and Amen".

S.H. You mean that the name Jehovah covers the three Persons that we know so intimately?

G.R.C. I would think that. The name Jehovah was the personal name of God, in so far as one could call a name personal in the Old Testament. In our day the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, implies

personal relations with the Father, and with the Son, and with the Holy Spirit. Every believer enters into these personal relations.

A.T.G. Is what you are saying about personal relations seen in Paul's word to the Philippians, "my God shall abundantly supply all your need according to his riches in glory in Christ Jesus" (Philippians 4:19)?

G.R.C. Yes. I think when Paul said "my God" his thoughts were not limited to one Person, as we speak. Earlier he says, "I have strength for all things in him that gives me power" (Philippians 4:13), without distinguishing a particular Person. There are other scriptures which are similarly undefined.

W.H.K. Mr. Darby points out that the name Jehovah is the personal name of the One who is spoken of as Elohim in Genesis 1, which would confirm what you are saying.

G.R.C. It would. There are certain settings where the Jehovah of the Old Testament is clearly the Father of the New (see, for instance, Mr. Darby's note g in 2 Corinthians 6:18). There are other settings where the Jehovah of the Old Testament is clearly the Christ of the New. Mr. Darby says elsewhere that 'it is to me as clear as the sun at noonday, that Christ was the Jehovah of the Old Testament'. ⁺ In Isaiah 6:3 the seraphim says, "Holy, holy, holy is Jehovah of hosts". The comment on that chapter in John 12:41 is, "These things said Esaias because he saw his glory" -- that is, Christ's glory -- "and spoke of him". We can rightly say that the passage has an allusion to the Trinity in the thrice

⁺ J.N.D., Collected Writings, Volume 9, page 298

repeated "Holy", but the Spirit of God has liberty to apply it particularly to Christ.

E.C.L. In Exodus 3:14, 15, God says to Moses, "I AM THAT I AM", and then, "Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel: Jehovah, the God of your fathers … hath sent me unto you. This is my name for ever". The name Jehovah is added to the name, "I AM", which would be inclusive, would it not, of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit as now made known? He is spoken of as Jehovah in His relations with Israel, but He is the I AM.

G.R.C. That is right.

B.G.H. With reference to God having personal dealings with His people, would Psalm 81:10 express His personal feelings and His desires for them? "I am Jehovah thy God, that brought thee up out of the land of Egypt: open thy mouth wide, and I will fill it".

G.R.C. And verse 13, "Oh that my people had hearkened unto me, that Israel had walked in my ways!"

B.G.H. It seems to express the personal feelings of God in a very definite way. God is the Speaker in the greater part of it.

G.R.C. It is a Gittith psalm, a psalm of pressure, and the pressure is caused through the declension of the people. Yet God uses even that form of pressure, the feeling of the godly soul about the declension and stubbornness of the people, to enlarge the soul in the knowledge of Himself. The soul gets such a sense of God's yearnings for His people that he arrives at what is stated in verse 1, "Sing ye joyously unto God our strength, shout aloud unto the God of Jacob". He gets such an impression of God! There are three Gittith psalms, two in

this book, and one in the first book. In Psalm 8 the pressure in the midst of which the babes and sucklings utter the perfected praise, is because of the adversaries. In Psalm 81 the pressure is caused by the state of the people. In Psalm 84 it is on account of the sufferings of the way, in maintaining divine principles (see Psalm 84:5, 6).

B.G.H. Would you be free to say a word as to the desires of the soul in relation to God, in view of the word in Psalm 73:26, "My flesh and my heart faileth: God is the rock of my heart and my portion for ever". Does pressure promote desires towards God, or does it produce something substantial in the soul that already has such desires?

G.R.C. I think the two things react upon each other. God works in us by the Spirit so that we all have desires after Himself, but we would never pursue those desires to the divine end without discipline. So that, according to Psalm 73:14, "For all the day have I been plagued, and chastened every morning". That proves God's love to us. He is good to Israel. Israel suggests the saints viewed according to purpose, and He is good to us. He does not let us settle down like the wicked. He does not give us days of prosperity like the wicked. His ways with us are to encourage and develop those divine instincts and feelings, which the Spirit of God has wrought in our hearts towards Him, until they become completely dominant in us. So in the end he says, "Whom have I in the heavens? and there is none upon earth I desire beside thee". I think God's discipline has reached its end there.

G.H.S.P. Would it be right to say that God's personal dealings are restricted to man, that order of creation? Is

there something instructive in that, that "He does not indeed take hold of angels by the hand, but he takes hold of the seed of Abraham" (Hebrews 2:16)? Is it instructive that God's moral ways are with that order of being, capable of being affected feelingly by them?

G.R.C. It is very affecting to think of that. It would be confirmed, would it not, by the fact that the Son has come into manhood -- of course the Son is a title which applies only to Him in manhood, yet it is a title which brings home to us the greatness of the Person who came. And so it says in Hebrews 5:8, "Though he were Son, he learned obedience from the things which he suffered". Is it not a remarkable thing that this can be said of Him?

G.H.S.P. I am sure it is. It is very affecting and throws, perhaps, fresh light on all God's ways with us. These have the definite end in view that He should be served in a feeling way by persons who have been brought to know Him through His moral dealings with them.

G.R.C. And so it is remarkable that the Lord Jesus does not enter into the great offices, of which we were speaking yesterday, until He has passed through things experimentally. He enters upon His great official positions, according to the purpose of God, as having Himself in manhood experienced all that God could be to a perfect Man. He learned all that obedience meant; an obedience which, in His case, meant infinitely more in suffering than that required of any other. That He should have been through such experiences is a remarkable thing. And I think that is what it means when it says, "having been perfected" (Hebrews 5:9). He is fully qualified for the offices He now holds in glorious manhood because He has been

through with God, every experience a perfect Man could go through in the scene of testing, and has effected the work of atonement.

W.McK. Philippians has been referred to as the epistle which gives us normal christian experience, and the Spirit indites chapter 2 in relation to the Lord Jesus?

G.R.C. You are thinking of the downward steps?

W.McK. Yes, and then the exaltation as a result.

G.R.C. It says in Philippians 2:8 that He became "obedient even unto death, and that the death of the cross", and Hebrews 5:7 shows how He felt it -- "with strong crying and tears" -- a very real matter. Many of our disciplinary experiences are because of what we are by nature, whereas He was ever "sin apart". Yet nothing we shall ever go through could in any way compare with the depths of suffering that were His.

W.J.S. What had you in mind in reading verse 17? Is that the resource of the soul as going this way?

G.R.C. Yes, I thought so. However inexplicable the ways of God may seem, viewed in themselves; when we go into the sanctuaries of God, we see the reason for them. We do not understand the details of His ways, for it says in Psalm 77:19, "Thy way is in the sea, and thy paths are in the great waters; and thy footsteps are not known". There is much in the ways of God which we cannot, and shall not, understand down here. "How unsearchable his judgments, and untraceable his ways!" (Romans 11:33). But do you not think that, although we cannot explain them, in going into the sanctuaries of God we see the reason for them and can be entirely restful in God.

A.A.B. In Hebrews 12:11 the peaceful fruit of righteousness is assured to those who are exercised by the Father's discipline. Would you link the thought of being exercised with going into the sanctuaries of God?

G.R.C. I am sure that is true. It shows the need for exercise in passing through discipline, that we should be sufficiently exercised to go into the sanctuaries of God.

B.G.H. What is the distinction between the sanctuaries of God and the sanctuary?

G.R.C. I think the sanctuaries of God refer to the court and the holy place, as well as the holiest. The key to understanding why God orders things, which, in themselves we cannot understand, lies in the whole matter covered by the words "sanctuaries of God".

A.B. Does it suggest they are very near? Sanctuaries is in the plural. Is it that they are available for us and do we touch something of the character of it as among the saints? What a relief to be among His people, where God is. How establishing it is.

G.R.C. So as we come into the court, the altar faces us, the altar of burnt-offering. That is a key to much. All that God has established for His pleasure eternally rests upon the sufferings of Christ, and the solution of all moral issues. Then there is the laver. That also instructs us. Whether the priest approached the altar, or whether he went into the tent, he had to go by way of the laver. And then, as we move into the holy place, we learn that "we, being many, are one loaf, one body" (1 Corinthians 10:17), because the twelve loaves of shewbread are now replaced by one loaf, because the saints of this dispensation are reconciled to God in one body. I am referring, of course, to

the type, and not to the actual bread on the table at the Lord's supper. Much of God's discipline is to help us to fit into our place in the body. So that in the sanctuaries of God one thing after another is educative. As I look at the altar of burnt-offering, I can understand God dealing with me in the light of what Christ suffered to establish all for God. When I look at the laver, I can understand God dealing with me, in order that I should be ready to accept purification. And, as in the holy place, I can understand God dealing with me, because if He did not deal with me I should never fit into that one loaf, one body, I would never be prepared to let my will go. Then there is the light. God must deal with us, if the light of the lamps is to shine unhinderedly. Finally, in the Holiest of all, we see, in all its splendour, the glory -- the One who sits between the cherubim, and the glory of the Man in whose heart the whole will of God is enshrined. All is educative and we understand that God must deal with us; and so we become amenable to His discipline.

W.H.K. Would you say why many of these psalms are of Asaph?

G.R.C. These psalms indicate that Asaph was remarkably intelligent as to the ways of God, and if there is a link between him and the Asaph of 1 Chronicles 16:7, would it not show what a bearing this has on the service of song? Those equipped to take up David's psalm, that is, typically, to voice the very praises of the Lord Himself in the assembly, were headed by Asaph.

G.H.S.P. Asaph's name, meaning gatherer, too, would show that he always had in mind what might be gathered up to enrich the service in all these ways?

G.R.C. That is very helpful, because these psalms are certainly a gathering up of that which would enrich the service in real substance. The earlier books give us light, but this book gives us substance.

H.W. So that this book would be analogous to Leviticus, where the service of God is taken up, drawing near to Him with offerings?

G.R.C. Quite so. It would give the substance for the offerings. Bringing offerings suggests what is substantial in the knowledge of God and of Christ, what has really been wrought out in the soul, because the offerer is identified with the offering. There can be no true offerings except in the measure in which we have had experience with God.

C.J.H.D. And do we have that experience with God in christianity in a more affectionately intimate way, than was possible in the time of the Old Testament? I was thinking of the title that God takes according to Hebrews 12 in regard of discipline, as the Father of spirits. When Moses is under discipline himself, and forbidden to go into the land, he says, "Let Jehovah, the God of the spirits of all flesh" (Numbers 27:16). Would you say that the expression, Father of spirits, covers a very great deal in regard of the affectionate side of sonship in our discipline, as compared with men like Moses and Asaph?

G.R.C. I am glad you have referred to that, because while the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, on the one hand, implies equality of Persons, and, therefore, would lead our hearts out in worship to the Trinity; yet from another standpoint it gives the order of the economy. In this order the Father is dominant, the Son

and the Holy Spirit having taken positions relative to Him. And I think in the personal relations of which we are speaking, we have to keep that in mind. The doxology, "Blessed be Jehovah for evermore!" would include, for us, the full thought of the Trinity. Nevertheless, in connection with God's disciplinary ways the Father has a peculiar and distinctive place. According to Hebrews 12:9, He is the Father of spirits. In Psalm 77:20 it says, "Thou leddest thy people like a flock by the hand of Moses and Aaron". It is like a father to take his children by the hand, when they are treading an unknown path. "Thy paths are in the great waters; and thy footsteps are not known" (verse 19). We do not know how to take the next step, but God comes in in a fatherly way and leads us by the hand. True, He does it by way of the Son, but the Father's affections are in it.

C.J.H.D. Yet discipline is not to be connected exclusively with the Father, for 1 Corinthians 11:32 says that in certain circumstances we are disciplined of the Lord. While, in a primary way, in regard of our circumstances, the Father has to do with us, yet it says it is God who conducts Himself towards us as towards sons, does it not?

G.R.C. Quite so. And do you not think that the discipline of the Lord is more judicial? We are disciplined of the Lord that we might not be condemned with the world. The Lord comes in, He is jealous, and if we go on in a worldly way, He will deal with us. But is not the Father's discipline apart from that question altogether? The Father has our true soul welfare in view and provides all that a Father could provide for us, both in necessary chastening and testing, and also in the comfort and support

needed in going through it. He provides Christ, the true "Moses and Aaron", to take us by the hand, leading us in the most tender way, so that we might get the gain of the discipline.

E.S. Does John 15:1, confirm that, "I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. As to every branch in me not bearing fruit, he takes it away"?

G.R.C. That is a different setting, but you have in mind that the purging is in order that the branch bearing fruit may bear more fruit? It is not judicial.

J.D. Would the partaking of His holiness be in mind? The beginning of Psalm 73 speaks of the pure in heart, and in Matthew 5:8 the Lord says, "Blessed the pure in heart, for they shall see God".

G.R.C. That is the vital point. The discipline is needed to purify our hearts, so that nothing might hinder us seeing God. Later, in Hebrews 12:14, it refers to "holiness, without which no one shall see the Lord".

A.B. Would leading like a flock have in mind the saints being led in God's way, He being the guide, in a combination of tenderness and authority?

G.R.C. You are thinking of Moses and Aaron? Very good, and it suggests, does it not, that we do not know one footstep ahead. He is leading us in God's way, whose footsteps are not known, so that, without the hand of Moses and Aaron, we could not get along at all. It is a wonderful thing to be in a path of dependence, and yet a path where we are the objects of such tender care. And you will notice that we are not isolated in it. He leads His people like a flock. God has individual dealings with each one, but yet we are moving together.

E.C.L. Does the thought of confidence, which is to be restored from man to God, come into this thought of the Father's dealings? The Lord's ministry, from John 13 onwards, is in order that the disciples might be at home in the Father's presence, having full confidence in Him, in order that they might move forward into the most precious thoughts of God.

G.R.C. The leading in Psalm 77, which promotes confidence, would prepare us for the leading in Psalm 78, which stands related to the greatest thoughts of God. It is a real test to be in a path where we do not know what the next step is to be, but where we are content, because such a glorious Person holds our hand, the Apostle and High Priest of our confession. He is viewed in these psalms not as the Man of God's purpose, as in the first book, but as the One God has provided for us. He is leading His people like a flock by the hand of Moses and Aaron. And as we develop in the confidence which comes from that kind of leading, in the path of responsibility in the wilderness, we shall be amenable to the leading that is suggested in David. "He chose David his servant, and took him from the sheepfolds: From following the suckling-ewes, he brought him to feed Jacob his people, and Israel his inheritance. And he fed them according to the integrity of his heart, and led them by the skilfulness of his hands". It is skilfulness here, because he is leading them in relation to the service of God, in relation to His sanctuary like the heights, spoken of in verse 69.

B.G.H. Would you say the choosing of the tribe of Judah would imply the praises of God being secured?

G.R.C. I think so. We have to learn that the assembly is not simply a family setting. "He rejected the tent of Joseph, and chose not the tribe of Ephraim" -- that is the family setting -- "But chose the tribe of Judah, the mount Zion which he loved". This is the assembly in its dignity -- "He built his sanctuary like the heights", and only the true David can guide us skilfully in this setting.

A.A.B. As typified in Moses and Aaron, the Lord would be endeared to us as leading us out, and in David, as leading and bringing us in?

G.R.C. Quite so.

M.H.T. This follows the darkest moment, when God delivered His strength into captivity and His glory into the enemy's hand. 'Where sin o'er all seemed to prevail, Redemption's glory shed' (Hymn 235).

G.R.C. God brings in the best, at the very worst time. That is what we are proving in our own day.

M.H.T. And is it of interest that the third book contemplates a time of great suffering for the remnant in a future day, when the heathen will come into the inheritance of God, and God's people will be dispossessed. But it is in those circumstances of pressure that the service of song, to which you have referred, will be enriched. Ought that to be a great encouragement to us who form part of the assembly at the present time?

G.R.C. It should, indeed. All the circumstances are ordered of God to bring just the amount of pressure needed. Nothing more than is necessary is ever allowed by God. So that even in that darkest day for Israel, which lies in the future, there will be just the needed pressure to bring about the end God has in view, that Jehovah should be

everything to them. And God is working to the same end with us, for He will have us go into heaven as a people to whom He is everything.

G.H.S.P. Do you think we might link the doxology in Jude with this book? I am thinking of the dark days which that epistle depicts, the days of apostasy, and the way it finishes with, "But to him that is able to keep you without stumbling" (verse 24). Is there a veiled reference in that to being led by the hand? And then, "to set you with exultation blameless before his glory, to the only God our Saviour", and so on. Does it indicate that God secures full response in the very darkest day?

G.R.C. That doxology would seem to link up these two psalms. To keep us from stumbling might be like the hand of Moses and Aaron in the difficult path of the wilderness. Then to present us blameless before His glory might link with the sanctuary at the end of Psalm 78.

C.J.H.D. Is there not comfort in the fact that our time of recovery has involved God doing things from behind the enemy, and not by means of a frontal attack? "He smote his adversaries in the hinder part". Does that not indicate that we have to accept the reproach of the smallness and meanness of things apparently outwardly, in the face of great religious movements around us?

G.R.C. Very good. So that the facade of christendom remains, but God has smitten them in the hinder part.

C.J.H.D. Exactly; the reproach is really behind them where they least expect it. But we must accept the public reproach. We shall never be anything publicly, ecclesiastically, in the eyes of the world.

B.G.H. Would you say a word as to the name Jehovah of hosts occurring in Psalm 84?

G.R.C. I think in this psalm it is not so much to stress what is military, but rather to stress that, as we should say, He has filled His house with sons. It is the attractiveness of His house. Not only is Jehovah Himself attractive to the soul, but His house and all that surrounds Him becomes exceedingly attractive also. "My soul longeth, yea, even fainteth for the courts of Jehovah; my heart and my flesh cry out for the living God". Thus God's house becomes the home of the soul. "Yea, the sparrow hath found a house". Some of us are looking for a house to live in down here, but it is better to find this house.

S.E.W. Is not the latter part of verse 8 touching, "Hear my prayer; give ear, O God of Jacob. Selah"?

G.R.C. Jacob was the one who first got light as to the house of God, and it was not at all attractive to him at first. But then the word comes, "Go up to Bethel, and dwell there" (Genesis 35:1). He was to find his home there. And I think the soul really finds its home in the house of God in Psalm 84.

S.E.W. And God brought it to pass with Jacob.

G.R.C. He did. And so in this verse, "The sparrow hath found a house, and the swallow a nest for herself". I wonder whether we have found this in the house of God? It may be we are not prepared to accept the place of a sparrow. It links on with what Mr. D. has just been saying, the place of reproach. The Lord says, according to Psalm 102:6, 7, that He was as a "pelican of the wilderness ... like a sparrow alone upon the housetop".

J.C.T. Is it interesting that in Zechariah the name Jehovah of hosts is used a good many times? While it says, "Who hath despised the day of small things?" (Zechariah 4:10), it speaks of the greatness of what God is setting up.

G.R.C. Very good. It is well in a day of small things to remember that He is Jehovah of hosts. Things outwardly may seem small, but God will never be short of numbers; and as we become acquainted with His house, and learn to dwell there in our spirits, we are not short of numbers.

G.W.B. If the Spirit says "many sons" you may be sure there are many.

G.R.C. So that the title Jehovah of hosts, in this setting, would be linked with the many sons. The psalmist represents a person in whom the affections of sonship are formed in such a manner, that God's house is his home. He is nothing but a sparrow here -- an object of reproach, but he has found a house, the house of God. He is a swallow, too, always a stranger here, a bird of passage, but the swallow has found "a nest for herself, where she layeth her young, thine altars, O Jehovah of hosts" (Psalm 84:3).

E.C.L. Why is altars in the plural? In the court there was one altar.

G.R.C. I think the soul is brought to appreciate both altars so you have the expression, "Thine altars, O Jehovah of hosts, my King and my God". We ought to have an appreciation of both of the altars, and to use them both. I believe one links especially with "my King" and the other with "my God".

D.W.M. Would Samuel have learned a lot in his young days as being at home in the temple, in a time of

great weakness publicly? He develops afterwards as a leader of the people of God.

G.R.C. That is very good, because it shows that we cannot be too young to find our home in God's house.

W.McK. The younger son in Luke 15 shows how readily that place is found. The reproach is not removed in the eyes of the elder son. He is still in reproach, but he is tasting what is inside in the house of God.

G.R.C. So that, from the divine side, our home is there from the outset, is it not? "Bring out the best robe and clothe him in it" (Luke 15:22). But the experiences of this book of Psalms are to make it truly home to us from our side. I do not believe it will become that, unless we accept the place of the sparrow and the swallow in this world.

E.C.L. "They will be constantly praising thee". Is that going on continually, and not only when the saints are together? It is an attitude of soul?

G.R.C. It shows how much this matter bears on our subject, the praises of God, because this kind of person will be constantly praising God.

E.M.W. Would you say a little more regarding your remark as to the two altars? You made a particular connection.

G.R.C. The altar of burnt-offering is a place of immense provision. "We have an altar of which they have no right to eat who serve the tabernacle" (Hebrews 13:10). We find abundance of food there. Then there is the privilege of prayer and supplication at both altars. I think at the altar of burnt-offering the character of prayer would be more in keeping with "my King", that is, with God as King of the ages, the blessed and only Ruler. Whereas at the golden

altar their character would be in keeping with "my God". Solomon prayed in the court. He prayed in the presence of the brazen altar.

S.H. Does the psalmist indicate the two altars where he refers to his prayer being set forth before God as incense, and the lifting up of his hands as the evening oblation? (Psalm 141:2).

G.R.C. The golden altar was the incense altar and connects with the immediate presence of God, and what is fragrant to Him; particularly, of course, in the Person of Christ. In Revelation 5:8 the incenses, however, are said to be the prayers of the saints. But the altar of burnt-offering is connected with the greatness and majesty of God. That is where, typically, He was glorified, according to all that He is in His nature and attributes. All that is due to Him as the King of the ages, the incorruptible, invisible, only God, was maintained at the altar of burnt-offering, viewed in its typical significance.

A.B. Would these things give character to our meetings for prayer?

G.R.C. I think so. The kind of prayer that links with the brazen altar is the prayer of 1 Timothy 2. That is linked with the King of the ages (1 Timothy 1:17). Paul says, "I exhort therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, thanksgivings be made for all men; for kings and all that are in dignity". Solomon's outlook was outward at the altar of burnt-offering. But the altar of incense is inside and there you are thinking of God and His purpose, which centres in Christ.