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NOTE - These Volumes of "Ministry by J. Taylor -- New Series" contain reprints of books now unobtainable in their original form, along with articles which have appeared in periodicals from time to time.

"REJOICE BECAUSE YOUR NAMES ARE WRITTEN IN HEAVEN"

Luke 10:17 - 22

I desire to call attention to a thought with which, I think, all will agree, and which has a prominent place in Scripture. It is this, that the privilege of being in the Lord's company is much more blessed and of far greater importance than the most honoured and successful service here. I feel rather pressed to remind saints of this, as I fear there is often a tendency to give too much prominence to outward activity in the Lord's work, where the blessedness of being in His company is little sought or known; and, not only so, but very often with those who do know something of the blessedness, the activity of a servant's path so beclouds and disturbs the soul's communion with Him that quiet moments with Himself, apart from all here, are but seldom, if at all, enjoyed. Now, great damage is caused by this, for not only is the soul impoverished and the affections dulled, but also the Lord is robbed of His portion.

It is not that I would make light of service, for it is most blessed in its place; as we find with the Lord, "I delight to do thy will, O my God". Psalm 40:8. His pleasure was to do the Father's will. Here we get the true idea of service. I am sure the Lord found pleasure in the service itself, as such, but His supreme delight lay in the consciousness that He was doing His Father's will. But the great defect in a good deal of our service is that the Lord's will is not known. I do not now refer to divine guidance in detail, but to the purpose of God. I do not think there can be any true service until this is, in some measure, apprehended. When the Lord said, "Lo, I come to do thy will", (Hebrews 10:9) I believe He had in view the whole range

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of what God was going to accomplish in grace, and it is the privilege of every servant to be, in principle, in His position here. But for this we have to see, as I have intimated, that our place and portion with Him is "that good part". Luke 10:42. When I lay hold of this I am in a position to know my Lord's will, and my pleasure will be to carry it out, in my measure.

Now we shall be helped as we arrive at the Lord's side of things and apprehend what His thoughts are. With this in view, reference has been made to this passage in Luke 10, where we have a glimpse of what occupied the Lord's heart at that time, and, indeed, of what occupies it, we may say, at this moment. There are few passages more beautiful. It comes in at the turning point of His blessed life, at a moment when, as far as outward circumstances were concerned, there was plenty to discourage. He was there as the vessel of grace, as chapter 4 so clearly shows, anointed of the Spirit for the setting forth of all that there was in the heart of God towards man. What did He meet with in carrying out His mission of love? Rejection from the outset, and the cross at the end. At Nazareth they thrust Him out, and led Him to the brow of the hill whereon their city was built, that they might cast Him down headlong, and at Jerusalem they led Him to Golgotha, where He was crucified. It is most touching to notice that in His private life, as seen in chapter 2, He is in favour with God and man; but when we come to chapter 4, where His public ministry begins, He becomes the object of their bitterest persecutions; and this, too, at Nazareth, where He was brought up. What brought about the change? Simply this, that in chapter 4 He begins definitely to set forth God to man. Thus the natural heart was fully exposed. The reproaches were really directed against His Father, but they fell upon Him. All this is very solemn.

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Now these are the circumstances under which we have this beautiful passage in chapter 10. Comparing the parallel passage in Matthew, we see that His complete rejection by the nation was fully manifested. John the Baptist, too -- the one above all others on earth to whom He might have looked for sympathy -- began to doubt. Was the Lord indifferent to all this? Not at all. He felt all most keenly. He could say, "The reproaches of them that reproached thee have fallen upon me". Psalm 69:9. But look at the moral grandeur of what comes out here! "In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight". Matthew 11:25,26. His pleasure is found in the fact that His own are the subjects of the Father's teaching. How blessed is this! He turns away from the sufferings, rejection, and service here to another scene, which evidently opens up before Him; where the Father was to be all, and where He was to have companions, taught of the Father, with Himself. The nation was rejecting Him, and Jehovah, as a consequence, was about to reject it; He was going to hide His face from the house of Jacob. But Jesus had disciples, children given to Him of the Father, and these were precious to Him. Refused by His beloved, but faithless, nation, His heart and hand would from henceforth be devoted to them. His pleasure was found in ministering to them and in the consciousness that they were the objects of the Father's love and care.

Now this is what we have at this moment. Through death and resurrection the Lord has entered, as Man, into that blessed scene of light and love, the circle of divine affections, from whence He came to make God known; and look! He wants us there. He "died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live

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together with him", 1 Thessalonians 5:10. This is surely our privilege now. It is the privilege of the believer to retire from his outward path of service here, and enter in spirit that blessed place where Christ is, as associated with Him.

This is the great point for the moment. But are we prepared for it? Are we ready to respond to His blessed desire to have us with Himself? Or are we going to allow other things to rob Him of what His heart is set upon? The latter is just that of which the "seventy" stood in danger. They were truly servants. They had been sent out by the Lord and endued with needed power for their mission. Now they return flushed with victory, saying, "even the devils are subject unto us through thy name", Luke 10:17. This was encouraging as far as it went, but from the Lord's reply we gather that they were making more of their success as servants than of their privilege as associated with Him. He ministers a mild rebuke by telling them to rejoice not that the spirits were subject to them, but rather to rejoice that their names were written in heaven. In principle He simply reminds them of their heavenly portion, and points out that this is greater and of more importance than the most successful service in this world.

May the Lord enable us all to choose the good part, for His name's sake!

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THE RESULT OF CHRIST'S MINISTRY ON EARTH

THE words written in Isaiah 49:4 are prophetically those of the Lord Himself: "I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for naught, arid in vain". This was true in so far as Israel after the flesh was concerned. It is not to be forgotten that Christ came to man as he was, bearing blessed tidings to him from God, and relieving him of all the many ills that followed in the train of sin; as it is said, "Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people", Matthew 4:23.

This ministry on the part of the Lord was perfect, and calculated, if indeed such were possible, to reach and recover the heart of man for God. But such was not possible It is true indeed that in many instances an outward and passing effect was produced by the words and works of Christ, but it was only where the Father had wrought beforehand that a real and eternal effect resulted from the Lord's testimony. There was no fruit whatever save where the seed fell upon good ground, and the good ground was unquestionably divinely prepared. There may be the most perfect presentation of divine light (whose presentation of truth could be more perfect than the Lord's?) and yet, apart from the work of God in the soul, it must be utterly in vain. John the Baptist had come in the way of righteousness, calling upon the people to repent; the Lord came in perfect grace to fulfil the promises, without a complaint or demand, and by His miracles showing that power was there to set up the kingdom; yet, as far as man himself was concerned, all was without avail. The doleful strains

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of the Baptist, and the heavenly music of the Son of man, were alike without any appreciation or response. Men were like "the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear; which will not hearken to the voice of charmers, charming never so wisely", Psalm 58:4, 5.

Now the effect on our own service of entering into all this will be that what is merely human will be shunned in the setting forth of the testimony of God, and there will be constant dependence upon the Lord that what is presented may be in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, and that it may come in contact with those whose hearts the Lord may open to receive it. Thus, although there may be little in the way of outward show, the effect will not be a transient one, as that which is produced by human eloquence and the like, and the faith of those who are reached will stand not in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. It must be remembered that while God commands repentance, He also grants it.

If man would not have Christ, if His "report" was altogether unheeded, and if in this respect His strength was spent for nothing, yet the Lord accomplished a vast deal. I do not now refer to the cross, but to the result of His ministry in connection with the Father's work. It is of the deepest interest to see the Father and Son working conjointly with a view to the carrying into effect of divine counsels. In connection with this the ministry of Christ was of great importance; it was the beginning and groundwork of "the vast universe of bliss", which God had purposed for Himself. I speak of His gathering, and of His forming, after His own blessed pattern, those whom the Father, in eternal love, had given and drawn to Him. In following the Lord in His pathway of service, as it is presented in the gospels, great blessing lies in the soul being led into the secret of what was

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before Him in it; and entering into this, we see not only the perfection of the service, but also its unique character.

And now, what was the immediate result of this work of love? This, that upon the Lord's ascension to heaven He left behind upon earth a vessel which was morally suitable for the reception of the Holy Ghost. This was a mighty result. Who but He could have effected it? I take great pleasure in regarding the little band, from whom the Lord was taken up at Bethany, as His own handiwork, and forming as such a vessel suitable for the reception of the Holy Ghost.

We will now turn to look at this company for a moment. Luke, at the end of his first narrative, gives a most touching description of them. At the cross they had been scattered. The Shepherd was smitten and the sheep were scattered; this was a terrible moment for them, but He had said that He would see them again, and their hearts should rejoice, and so it came to pass. Being risen He gathered them together, spoke to them the peace of victory, and filled their hearts with joy, bringing them into the resurrection atmosphere in company with Himself. Then He led them out as far as to Bethany, where He was taken from them. And now look at them! They worship Him, and return to Jerusalem with great joy, and are continually in the temple, praising and blessing God. Their hearts were truly gained for God.

The same writer, in his second treatise, Acts 1gives us another and not less beautiful view of them, and here I find two points, to call attention to which is the immediate object of this paper.

First, they were gazing up into heaven, verses 10, 11. Lovely attitude! True, they could not have continued literally in this position, for He was coming

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again, as the "two men in white apparel" told them, and there was testimony to be rendered to Him in the meantime; but this band of men looking steadfastly toward heaven is an affecting scene, and full of moral beauty. And what was the secret of it? No doubt they had much to learn as to what was to follow upon what they had just witnessed, but their hearts were charmed, fairly captivated by the blessed One who had been taken up from them. The world was a blank to them, and all their joys and hopes were centred in Him whom heaven was receiving.

The second point to note is that having returned to Jerusalem which was to be the scene of their labour and conflict, they were marked by prayer and supplication, verse 14. If, on the one hand, their hearts were absorbed with the Lord, as going into heaven, on the other they had a sense of being utterly without strength in themselves to maintain His interests in a contrary and hostile world. This led to the expression of their dependence.

These two traits in the disciples are of great importance as showing the effect of the Lord's ministry, and proving them to be morally qualified for receiving the Holy Ghost. The Spirit could not dwell upon earth without the formation of that in which He can reside. When the Son came a body was prepared for Him in which He tabernacled among men. The Spirit in coming did not in the same way become incarnate, but a company was formed as a vessel divinely prepared and morally suitable for His reception and dwelling place.

Now, in all that has been before us, what I see of practical importance is this, that although we cannot have all that saints in early days had in the way of outward manifestation of power, yet we can surely count upon the Lord to produce in its those simple marks which characterised them, namely, occupation

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with Himself, and dependence, and where these are found there will be no lack of spiritual power. It is in getting to the simple state where human pretension and strength are entirely disclaimed, that we really get back to the Spirit's power, and prove the reality of His presence down here. May the Lord lead to it!

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THE TESTIMONY OF GOD

Luke 2:1 - 7, 13; 1 Corinthians 1:26 - 29;

Revelation 21:10, 11.

It is my desire, in reading these scriptures, to call your attention to the introduction of the testimony of God into this world and also into that which is to come.

There is nothing more interesting and more important than the introduction of the divine testimony. This is what is brought before the attention of men in the gospel of Luke. I say the attention of men, because Luke's platform is a wide one; humanity is in view.

Luke was a companion of the apostle Paul, and the sphere of Paul's labours was humanity; he did not stop short of all men; his conception of God's mind was that it extended to the limits of humanity. There was no part of it that was not to be affected by the divine testimony. Paul's base was heaven, that of the twelve was Jerusalem. Their labours were connected with Jerusalem. Not so Paul's. He began with heaven, and you cannot restrict heaven. What is witnessed from heaven cannot be confined to any limited part of earth.

In Acts we see the heavens opened, and Stephen permitted to look in. He saw a Man there, a Man in heaven. Afterwards we find that the Man whom he saw there had certain dealings with Saul of Tarsus. There shone around him a "light from heaven", (Acts 9:3) not a light from Jerusalem. It was a light above the brightness of the noon-day sun. It affected him profoundly. He began with heaven, and he felt that the influence of heaven was to extend to the uttermost limits of the earth.

Luke writes about Christ in relation to humanity. I do not believe that you will find anywhere in Scripture the thought that heaven and earth are to

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be disconnected. Earth is to be influenced by heaven; Psalm 19 is a proof of this. The sun is set in the heavens and every part of earth feels its influence. I think you will find that the effort of men is to disconnect earth and heaven. They say, virtually, 'As far as God is concerned He may abide in heaven, but we want the earth'. In the Revelation what you find is, that men will glorify the God of heaven. They do not say anything about the God of earth. But Christ comes down (Revelation 10) and sets His right foot on the sea and His left foot on the earth; He lays claim to all. God has said "heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool", Isaiah 66:1. Beloved friends, you cannot separate His throne from His footstool. There is no house capable of receiving Him save what He Himself has built, and the earth is part of this house. A brother was speaking to me today about fresh air, and what we really need is fresh air; the higher up we go, the fresher the air.

It is our privilege to maintain that the earth is the Lord's. I have not given up the earth in this sense. The church witnesses to this that the inheritance belongs to Christ. He has said, "Occupy till I come". Luke 19:13.

I want now to speak about the testimony and the circumstances in connection with its introduction, as presented in the beginning of Luke. God takes up the most despised people, and one of the most insignificant families in Judea, in order to bring in His testimony. It was suitable morally that God should begin this way, because of the pretensions of men. Everything that God does has a moral significance, and you get little help from the Scriptures, unless you read them keeping this in view. It will be a great practical help to us in our walk down here, if we ponder the circumstances in which God introduced His testimony into this world.

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What a testimony this was, beloved friends! The true Ark of the covenant, the blessed Son of God, lying in a manger. Men cared not for Him. Augustus! what did he care about Christ? Nothing. What was then happening in Bethlehem was utterly unimportant to him, and to the dignities of his empire. But what about heaven? A multitude of the heavenly host appeared. They knew what was going on. The greatest event that had yet occurred in the history of the world had just transpired in the city of David, and every intelligence in heaven understood its blessed significance. They spoke of "glory to God". That blessed Babe had come for the establishment of the divine glory. What had been on the earth before? Nothing but reproach and dishonour, but the glory of God was now to be maintained in the universe. There was also to be "peace on earth", and the angels knew it. The third thing was "good pleasure in men". Heretofore man was a grief to the heart of God, but now that heart would rest with perfect complacency upon His beloved Son as Man on earth. The angels were filled with a sense of the greatness of what was going on, but all that was so wonderful to heaven was introduced under the most insignificant circumstances on earth, but this did not detract from its value. Do we think anything less of the Lord because lie lay in a manger? No, it enhances the moral glory and beauty of the position. It was suitable that He should enter thus because of what was here, for God in this way would make nothing of the great things of this world.

I read the passage in Corinthians to show that the same principle has been maintained in connection with the Spirit's testimony in the church at the present time. What was so perfectly presented here in Christ all went up to heaven, and was appreciated there. It was not valued on earth, but it was in heaven. One is reminded of Psalm 24:7, where we

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read, "Lift up your heads, O ye gates, and be ye lift up, ye everlasting doors, and the King of glory shall come in". The higher He went the greater the greeting, and He went far beyond all heavens. What was here went up there, but by the Spirit of God all has come back again, and is now in the saints by the Spirit. Are the circumstances altered? Not in the least. The apostle says, "ye see your calling, brethren". He says, so to speak, 'See the kind of people God has taken up'; the foolish, the weak, the ignoble, and despised hath God chosen. It was not a matter of chance, they were chosen, and what for? To bring to nothing the things that are. How are we affected by these things? Are we content to be despised? Do we like to be considered the base things of the earth? The apostle spoke of himself and those associated with him, as the filth and off-scouring of all things. They were viewed as this because of their complete identification with the testimony of God.

The greater you are in this world the less you are in the church, and the less you shall be in the coining kingdom But we can well afford to be accounted small here for we are going to be placed in the most prominent position in God's universe. The Father has committed us into the hand of Christ, and what will He do with the saints? He will bring us to Himself, to the highest pinnacle of God's universe. We do not need to be great or prominent now. We shall have all the prominence we want in the world to come. Paul will have a wonderful place in the kingdom, a place corresponding to that which he had in this world. Are we content to be obscure now? When Christ was here He was obscure so far as position in this world is concerned. He had no place to lay His head. I believe the safest place for every Christian is that of obscurity. The apostle says, "our life is hid". Colossians 3:3. Christ is hid, and so are we.

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When He is manifested, so shall we be; when He comes forth from the place of concealment into that of open display we shall be with Him. Then we shall have all the publicity we want; only wait, and we have not long to wait.

Let us now turn to Revelation, and here again we find testimony. The heavenly city is testimony. I do not think there is really any change morally. What comes out in the heavenly city has already come out here in Christ, and is here now in the saints. The scene of display is changed; the man who pretended to be great is no more, the earlier part of the book shows how he has been disposed of. He has found his own place; Revelation 20 shows this, that the devil is bound, the beast and false prophet, the political descendants of Augustus having found their place already in the lake of fire, Revelation 19. The entire scene has been cleansed and purified.

And now, beloved friends, you get glory. God says, as it were, 'I will let you see the display of My glory'. You will have all the glory then that your heart can desire. The heavenly city appears having the glory of God. It comes forth in splendour all divine. No longer the manger, no more the humble and obscure circumstances. No! it is now the glory of God in full display. The Lord by His power has removed all that is unsuited to God, and the glory shines forth. And oh, beloved friends, what a display! I leave it, that each may ponder over it for himself. It is a marvellous scene. All upon earth will appreciate what is presented. The atmosphere of heaven will pervade the earth, and be diffused to its utmost bounds. Then we shall have abundance of fresh air.

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THE CONFLICT

Notes of a Reading on Ephesians 6:10 - 20.

Comparatively few Christians have any definite idea of what they are here for -- the thought of most is that it is simply a question of getting to heaven in the end. I fancy Satan has not much to quarrel with in this; I do not think he would object much if they all went now. Why? Because he does not want the claims of Christ asserted here; and by whom are these to be asserted if not by the saints? For this reason he has helped in the past to send many of them to heaven. It suits his purpose equally well to lull them to sleep.

The contention is the earth: We claim it for Christ, and the Devil wants it. He succeeded in getting a footing here, but he will be dislodged. The Lord said, "I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven" Luke 10:18; that was the beginning of it; during the millennium he shall have been actually removed from the scene. We really do not go at all; it is he who has to go. It is very clear that the saints remain in heaven only for a brief season. They come out again to inherit with Christ, and they come out to stay. The earth is evidently part of the inheritance. It was made for man, and I do not think it was ever the thought of God to dissociate man from it. The great point, evidently, is to bring earth and heaven into touch, and this is brought to pass in the heavenly city. Once the city comes out, there is nothing in Scripture to prove that it returns. There will be new heavens and a new earth, but the present heavens and the earth form, in this connection, the great theme of Scripture.

From the outset God made it clear that He was Lord of heaven and earth (see Genesis 14:19; Exodus 19:5; Joshua 3:11), and the holiest of

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all in the tabernacle was the witness to this; whatever the claims of men might be. The church's position corresponds to this at the present moment: we maintain the claims of Christ in relation to the heavens and the earth. The Lord Himself came here claiming everything for God. He would yield nothing. Our position corresponds fully. God has asserted His rights in Christ arid we maintain them; and this necessarily involves conflict. The first confession the believer makes, Romans 10:9, is an assertion of the rights of Christ; he owns Him as Lord. It is not simply that He is my Lord, but Lord of everything.

To hold the earth actually now would be earthly mindedness and disloyalty to Christ, who was cut off arid had nothing here. The man who understands the inheritance best will be the least earthly minded. We are here simply for Christ and our safety lies in standing out boldly for His claims. There is really no danger at the front, danger lies in the rear, Deuteronomy 25:18. Man is the theatre of operations whether it be on the part of God or Satan. It was through him Satan got in, but God has got a footing here in Man and He does not propose to give it up.

The Lord left things here outwardly pretty much as He found them; but He left a man here without fear -- Peter. Peter was perfectly fearless in proclaiming the claims of Christ before all the world. There is no change outwardly. The valley of the shadow of death remains (Psalm 23), but the man in that valley has no fear. Enemies are there, but a table is prepared for him in their presence. The fact is the scene is not changed at all, the man is changed. Peter is the kind of man we want. He was as bold as a lion. He had been a coward before -- we are all cowards naturally. But the Spirit brings us into the calling, that is, into God's house; that is the greatest thing conceivable; there is music and dancing there. When the Lord went up there was

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music and dancing in heaven, so to speak, now it is here by the Spirit. The man who enters into this can stand.

It is an immense thing for the saints to see power in the hand of Christ. David said to Abiathar, "with me thou shalt be in safeguard". 1 Samuel 22:23. He was in rejection, but power and protection for the Lord's people were with him. He prefigured Christ at the present moment. David was a most wonderful character. Deliverance and safety for Israel were with him. The Philistine cause was hopelessly lost from the first moment of his appearance. He extirpated the giants and never lost a battle. If you want to be safe come out boldly for Christ. It often takes a Christian a long time before he sees he has to contend, but in the conflict loyalty to Christ is safety.

Armour is protection -- a different thought to power. You can only give an account of it as you have used it. Paul, no doubt, could give a perfect account of it.

At last you come to a point where you stand. This is not in the wilderness but in the land, "Having done all", Ephesians 6:13 i.e., having gone right through and overcome everything to the finish. The Spirit maintains the witness subjectively that Christ is Lord. What we are in every-day life is the testimony. To stand for Christ involves self-surrender, but this is worth the while, for we are sure to find Christ in it.

Acts 4 furnishes a wonderful illustration as to the power through which the Lord protects His people at the present time in answer to prayer. The position of the man of faith is one of constant exercise and watching.

God generally keeps His people by leaders. The strong is to support the weak. If the Lord gives a man ability and strength, it is not to make him great, but to shelter and feed the saints. I do not know where we should have been for the last half

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century, or indeed at any time, had the Lord not raised up leaders to protect His people. And Satan always attacks them. Whatever is presented by the Spirit is always resisted when it is being ministered. In many cases it will be found that the very opposers of a given ministry subsequently adopted what they once resisted; that is, when the occasion of it no longer existed. Stephen's address in Acts 7 is a remarkable evidence of this. Every testimony of God had been resisted by Israel at the time it was rendered. The written record of these testimonies was afterwards accepted and read in their synagogues every sabbath day.

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CHRIST CROWNED BY THE FATHER AND BY THE SAINTS

Canticles 3:11; Matthew 21:1 - 11

My thought is, beloved friends, to show that the Lord takes pleasure in having a place in the affections of His people. He has a place in the affections of the Father: He also desires a place in the affections of His people. He would dwell in the hearts of His people, and it is with that in view I have read these two scriptures.

What I desire to point out is that the Lord is crowned by His mother. You may say He is crowned by God the Father, which is true, but I think it is a most interesting thought that He is also crowned by His mother. The daughters of Zion were invited to "behold king Solomon with the crown wherewith his mother crowned him in the day of his espousals, and in the day of the gladness of his heart". Song of Solomon 3:11.

Now I hope the Lord will enable me to make clear to you what is really in that verse and I hope also that He will enable me to make application of it to ourselves. What I would say is this: the Lord is not satisfied alone with being crowned by God. Now you will understand I am not in any wise detracting from the act of God in crowning Him. You may depend upon it that the affections of the Father were brought into activity in the act of crowning His beloved Son. I think it was an auspicious day in heaven when the Lord Jesus Christ went up into it as man and was crowned. The Holy Ghost bears testimony to it on earth "God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified both Lord and Christ". Acts 2:36. The Lord went "far above all heavens". Ephesians 4:10. Why? That He might fill all things. You may ask me how He fills all things? I think as He ascended upwards that every single intelligence

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on the way up caught a glimpse of Him. A Man went up and they saw Him, and I think every single intelligence thereupon was filled. The idea of being filled with Christ I think means that the mind and heart are taken up with Him. I think all in heaven was to be filled; hence He passed into the place beyond all; and every intelligence and sphere were filled with the Lord Jesus Christ as He went up. But He went to the highest point, to the Father; and what was filled there? The Father's heart; and the Father crowned Him with glory and honour. "God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ". Acts 2:26.

But the Lord would fill all here below. He had not really filled anything when He left. He did not leave anything filled as far as I can judge. He did indeed take such as Mary of Bethany and Mary Magdalene, and others, and fill them in a sense, but I think the intention of God is that Christ is to fill all things from the highest point. He went beyond all heavens to fill all things, and I think that when the Holy Ghost came here, the one hundred and twenty believers in Jerusalem were filled. What were they filled with? They were not filled with the glories of the empire: they were not filled with the Jewish system that surrounded them. They had been, I have no doubt. The disciples were poor men, but the fact of a man being poor does not mean that he is not worldly. Far from it. He may be just as worldly as a rich man. The disciples were mostly all poor, but I have not the least doubt in my mind that they were all filled with the world prior to the Lord Jesus Christ taking them up. One of them had been filled with seven demons, which was worse. They were all filled with something -- with the empire, Judaism, or something else, but when the Lord Jesus Christ went to the right hand of God, and the Holy Ghost came down to earth, what then? The

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one hundred and twenty were filled with Christ; I do not believe there was a particle of room in their hearts for anything of the world. There was no place in the hearts of those people for anything that the world had to offer, for their hearts were filled with Christ.

Now I think that was God's design, and, so far as I can see, that is His present design as to us also. You may rely upon it He intends to fill your heart and mind. You have both a mind and a heart, and the Lord is capable of filling both, and He intends to fill both. I fear that with the majority of Christians it is not as it was with the one hundred and twenty in Acts 2. I know that in the hearts and minds of most believers the world has a very great place, but the thought of the Lord is to dislodge it, and that by entering in Himself. In the age to come there will not be anything but Christ in heaven and upon earth -- I mean, morally; He fills all things. They will not be half filled, but filled full.

But I want to come to the thought of being crowned by His mother. I think that when His mother crowns Him she will get all the benefit of His power. I want to make that clear, and I want to make application of it to ourselves. Israel is His mother. The figure is used more than once in Scripture. The Lord Jesus Christ came through Israel after the flesh, but at the present time she is not deriving any benefit from Him. She is not getting any benefit from her Son. Why? Because she has not crowned Him. She had the opportunity, but did not embrace it. He did indeed receive a crown from man, but not a crown of affection: affection would not plait a crown of thorns: that was a crown of hatred, a crown of mockery, He was presented to Israel as King, but the leaders said, "We have no king but Caesar". John 19:15. The sequel proved what Caesar would do for them.

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We may see in the history of David an illustration of what I have been saying. He was anointed king by Jehovah for a considerable period of time before Israel got any direct benefit from him. Was it because David did not have any ability to help Israel? No. David had all the ability that God gave him, but the children of Israel got no real help from him until they accorded him the place God had given him. The anointing of David was a private affair. Samuel was afraid to go to Bethlehem. If Samuel had attempted to go with a train of attendants, in a public way, on his mission he would have been arrested by Saul; so he went to the house of Jesse in a private way and anointed the king. The anointing by God involved power to help the people, but it did not place David in the position to help them. As yet Saul had the position, and David remains in seclusion. He went off to take care of his father's sheep again after being anointed, and subsequently played for the acting king to keep the evil spirit away from him. He was not engaged with the deliverance of Israel. It was a poor occupation for the anointed king of Jehovah to be keeping guard of the false king. That was not an occupation proper for the anointed of Jehovah. But Israel had not anointed him. David, after he was anointed by God, had to wait many a long day before his people anointed him. You may say David lost. No. Israel lost. David gained, but Israel met with terrible defeat on the mountains of Gilboa. Had David been there it would not have been a defeat. You never heard of a defeat of David. They would not have been defeated on the mountains of Gilboa had his people accorded him the place that God had given him, but they did not, and they were the losers. It applies to the present moment. Israel did not give the Lord Jesus Christ the place accorded Him by the Father. Who were the losers? Look at the Israelites today. Where

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are they? Scattered to the four winds of heaven, and they are a by-word everywhere. Is Christ losing? The Lord Jesus Christ has a blessed occupation: He is not indeed engaged in protecting the false king from evil spirits; that is not the occupation of Christ now. He has Rebecca, His bride, and He is occupied with her.

But I dwell on the point that Israel is the loser in not accepting the anointed One. The Lord Jesus Christ is the Anointed of Jehovah by the Holy Ghost. The Lord was not only anointed: there was in His works a public demonstration of the power of the kingdom. He went about doing good, and His works were the divine credentials that He was the King; but -- notwithstanding this, His people rejected him: they would not give Him a crown. And what was the result? They are suffering the consequences of their folly. They would choose a king, and the king they chose destroyed their city and led them captive. They have been led captive into all nations. God says, as it were, Let Me choose a king for you, but they declared that God's King was not their choice. They assumed to know better than God: they rejected God's choice. But they will own their folly, and return to sound judgment: they will own Him as King, saying, "Hosanna to the son of David: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord". Matthew 21:9. This will involve severe chastisements on the part of God. Isaiah 3 speaks of it: Israel will be stripped of those upon whom she leaned "The mighty man, and the man of war, the judge, and the prophet, and the prudent, and the ancient, the captain of fifty, and the honourable man, and the counsellor, and the cunning artificer, and the eloquent orator". Isaiah 3:2,3. Thus she "being desolate shall sit upon the ground". Isaiah 3:26. Desolate and shelterless, she will gladly accept Christ: "Seven women shall take hold of one man", Isaiah 4:1 and I have no doubt that Christ will

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be the Man. When Israel is bereft by the judgment of God of all those to whom she looked for protection and support I think she will be glad of a king and accept Jehovah's choice; and after all Jehovah's choice was the best: God did not at all withdraw His choice. He says, "I have set my king upon my holy hill of Zion". Psalm 2:6. God has reserved His King: He will not give up: He will wait, however, until Israel returns to good sense, when she will accord the crown to the Lord Jesus. Then you get the wonderful passage, "Go forth, O ye daughters of Zion arid behold king Solomon" Song of Songs 3:11 -- not king David, but king Solomon, the Prince of Peace. Behold Him in what way? Crowned at the right hand of God? No. Crowned by the affections of His people. That is a different thought entirely. It is a most wonderful sight to see the Lord Jesus Christ accorded the place of King by the affections of His people! That is what the daughters of Zion are called upon to see. It will be a wonderful moment for Christ, and for Israel, when it takes place. They awake to recognise that there is beauty and glory in the Lord. They no longer say, "When we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him". Isaiah 53:2. He is now all to them: He is the One to be crowned by his mother in the day of His espousals.

I have been speaking of what resulted to Israel for her folly in not according the crown to Christ: I want now to say a word as to the consequences of her act of crowning Him. When the Lord Jesus Christ is crowned by His mother He will do all possible for her. There is nothing He will not do for her; nothing that she requires, and I think she will require a great deal. Israel will require to be washed. The Lord will wash her. She will require to be delivered from her enemies. The Lord will deliver her from them. He will do anything for His mother when she crowns Him. His mother will now have

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a friend: the Lord will do anything for the happiness and welfare of Israel. She will be set up in glory. He will find her shelterless arid in filth and desolation, and He will take her up and fit her to be His earthly bride: He will clothe her in fine linen, as we learn from Psalm 45"The king's daughter is all glorious within; her clothing is of wrought gold. She shall be brought unto the king in raiment of needlework". Psalm 45:13,14. She shall be in every way suitable to the King, and He will put a crown upon her, and Jerusalem will be the queen in gold of Ophir. All this will be consequent really upon the Lord being accorded His rightful place by the nation of Israel.

I was speaking about David in obscurity; about his occupation. It was no occupation at all for the anointed of Jehovah, but he kills the giant, and that is his first great public act. You may say that that gave him a place for the moment: it did, but he had many a long year to wait before he got the place again: he did get it however. We are told in the book of Chronicles that after the death of Saul and the death of his son, all Israel (not only Judah, but all Israel) came to Hebron. Why did they come to Hebron? They came to Hebron to put the crown on David. Now I want you to note what followed. He went at once to Jebus, which is Jerusalem, and dislodged the enemies of Israel. What next? He brings the ark to Zion and establishes it there. What then? The house was built by Solomon, his son. All this, and much more, was consequent upon the anointing of David by the twelve tribes of Israel.

The passage in Matthew 21 indicates what the people will do in the future. It is really a picture of what will take place literally in the future by the whole nation of Israel. Here, however, it was only a testimony, ordained on the part of God to be rendered to Christ directly He entered His capital. He is accorded by the multitude the place that God had

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given Him. He is the Son of David: "Hosanna in the highest" Matthew 21:9. That was an appropriate reception for the King. If Israel had accorded it to Him really from their hearts, what would He not have done for them? He would have destroyed the Roman yoke of power and delivered them. He came in testimony to them, but, alas; they neither knew nor valued Him, but there He was, and if it had been possible for them to accord Him the place God had given Him He would have broken the power of Rome and effected their speedy deliverance; but they did not give Him that place.

See what kind of man He was: "meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass". "Behold thy King cometh unto thee". Matthew 21:5. What kind of king? Not like the kings, beloved friends, that we are acquainted with in history, but a meek man: that is the man to whom the crown belongs. The meek "shall inherit the earth". Matthew 5:5. The Lord Jesus Christ is the very expression, the embodiment, of meekness and a meek man is the man to rule. I want a meek man to rule me. Thank God, that Man is in the place of rule. You may depend upon it if you have a meek ruler you have a happy time of it! He says, "Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me, for I am meek and lowly in heart; and ye shall find rest unto your souls" Matthew 11:29. The Israelites might have taken His yoke upon them. Would it have been a Roman yoke? No, it would have been an easy yoke. "My yoke is easy, and my burden is light". Matthew 11:30. He would have placed no heavy burden upon them: His burden is light.

Now I have only a word to add in a practical way, in order that you and I might not be satisfied merely with what God has made the Lord. We must do what God has done if we want to get the benefit of Christ. That is the best way I know of putting it. We must crown Him, and accord to the Lord the

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place that God has accorded Him. As soon as you do it the Lord will do anything for you -- anything your soul requires. It is a wonderful sight to see a Christian who in his affections has accorded the Lord the place that God has given Him. You may ask me to explain. Well, as soon as you crown the lord you have no right to direct your own path. The idea of a king in Scripture is that he is absolute. A limited monarchy is not known in Scripture; a constitutional government is foreign to Scripture; republicanism is obnoxious to God. We have to do with it. I am not speaking against the government at all, but the idea of a republic is obnoxious to God. God's idea is an absolute monarchy, absolute, and nothing else. And it is the best if you have the right man. Put the meek and lowly Man in the place of absolute authority, with all divine power at His disposal, and you will be well off. It is a great thing to know the Man. I can understand how a man is installed in office to rule, but it is a great thing to know your man before you put him there. I see that the glad tidings in the beginning of Acts involved that the One who had been installed on high had been well known down here; a Man who never did anybody any harm, never destroyed life, never took away a man's goods; a meek Man, who knew how to love and do good. I say it was good tidings that that Man was made both Lord and Christ. I say then, beloved friends, if you have a Man like that in the place of authority it is your wisdom to acknowledge it. And what does it involve? It involves the complete abandonment of your own will: it is lawlessness to choose your own course after acknowledging Christ as Lord: but then it involves absolute good for you, and nothing else. The Lord Jesus Christ is an absolute Monarch, but He is a Man who can do nothing but good, hence as soon as you crown Him you may look for this and nothing else.

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Take Saul of Tarsus: the meek Man was on the throne and He sent him tribulations, and these served to keep the apostle, and help him on the road. That blessed One knew well what would help Paul, and He will do the same for you and me, but, beloved friends, we must crown Him. Saul said, "Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?" Acts 22:10. He crowned Him at once, and all the way through in the history of Paul you find nothing but good. He says, "The Lord stood with me" 2 Timothy 4:17.

I am not a bit discouraged by the state of things. That is not saying much; it is not saying anything at all for me, but it is saying something for Christ. Paul said, "The Lord shall deliver me from every evil work". 2 Timothy 4:18. Why? He crowned Him, as I said before. The Lord intends that His interests should be ours, and if you give Him His place you may depend there is nothing to fear in this connection The church originally crowned Him: the one hundred and twenty acknowledged the Lord and gave Him His place. See how He took care of the church. Saul of Tarsus was persecuting it, arid what did the Lord do with him? He broke him down. Saul was persecuting the church, and the Lord was defending it: He was the great defender of the church. He loved the church, and the church loved Him, and crowned Him, so to speak, and He used all His power for its protection. He did, and He will do it now. What can any power do against the saints? There is nothing to fear. Recognise the Lord, and that means that you disallow yourself. Your will must go, and mine: the Lord must have His way.

I feel that I cannot go much further -- the thought is clear and simple. I should like to invite each one, as the daughters of Zion were invited, to behold this sight -- Christ crowned by the saints. It is a blessed sight. I should like to go up to heaven and see Him

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there, crowned by the Father, but I should like to see Him crowned by His people down here. There is an absolute monarchy in America actually, in spite of the republicanism that prevails, and you may rely upon it that God will not have anything else. There is very little recognition at all of the Lord Jesus Christ, but God has brought into this country an absolute monarchy, and it is going to stay. Now I am not detracting from the government of this country: I recognise it as here of God, but the Lord Jesus Christ has set up His kingdom here and that involves an absolute monarchy, and absolute good for its subjects. "Confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord", Romans 10:9. You may say, That is to the unbeliever. It is to all who need salvation; and there are very few who do not, so far as I can judge. The fact is we all need it while down here. Confession means that you acknowledge the Lord, and give Him the place that God has given Him. If you do that you shall be saved: you shall have all the power of Christ behind you, and there is nothing to fear. May the Lord help us. He desires a place in the affections of His people down here.

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CHRIST IN AUTHORITY

Luke 7:1 - 10; Acts 4:5 - 14.

THE thought I had in coupling these two Scriptures was that in each we find the idea of what is official, that is, of one placed in authority. The Roman centurion called the Lord's attention to the fact that he was himself in the position of authority, the proof of that being that when he said to one to do so and so, he would do it; there was no question about it. The authority vested in him was of such a character that those who were directly under his control would immediately obey. He calls the Lord's attention to this, but in doing so he did not wish to occupy the Lord with the fact that he was a Roman officer; he was not engaged with his own official place, that was a matter of no consequence at all. He might have been emperor for that matter: he could not effect the recovery of his servant. His servant was sick, and whether emperor or mere centurion, he could not alter the condition of his servant's body. His authority was of such a character that he might very easily put a man to death, but he could not recover a man from illness; he could not raise a man from the dead. Not all the authority in the empire combined was sufficient to restore a man to health or to raise a dead man. Hence the centurion had no thought at all of occupying the Lord with his official position: the point was that the Lord was in such a position.

Now, beloved friends, that is what I want to speak about: the Lord is in an official place. The idea of an official is right; it is perfectly right, provided you have the right man. If you put the right man in the position of power, then I think you get something done, something good. I have no doubt this centurion was a kindhearted man; he had built a

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synagogue; but with all the means that he had at his disposal and with all the authority vested in him he could not do anything for his servant who was sick. How was the servant to be recovered? He says to the Lord, "I also am a man set under authority", etc. What he really meant to say was that the Lord was in authority: he says, "Say in a word, and my servant shall be healed". He recognised that the Lord was down here officially, delegated, as it were, on the part of God for the good of man. What was the centurion's business? He was there on the part of the emperor. I do not think the emperor directed him to build the synagogue, but his official position was to carry out the decrees of the emperor. That is what he was there for. But he refers to his own position to convey to the Lord that he recognised Him as in authority. This indicates that he had light in his soul; for there was nothing outwardly in Christ that told of His official greatness. Hence the Lord says, "I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel".

I want to put a question to every one here tonight: Has it ever dawned upon you that the Lord Jesus Christ is installed in office? In this country the idea of installation is very familiar. We all know what it means to be installed. Only recently the President of the United States was installed by the people. A man is put into the supreme office of the nation. Now, has it really dawned upon you that the Lord Jesus Christ has been installed in the supreme official position in the universe of God? He has. It is a past event, but it is an abiding fact, He has been installed by the only power that could install Him: not by the power of the people, but by the power of God. "God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ". Acts 2:36.

Now, as to the result of the installation or the inauguration, all depends on the character of the

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person who is placed in office. That is simple enough. Before a man is placed in a responsible position he must be tested. In this country everybody knows publicly the character of the man, so that the people are taking no chances. The American nation took no chance at all from a political point of view when it placed the present man in the position of power. Why? He had been tested. He had had an opportunity to prove his character. But suppose he had never been in office before, he had never been in the president's chair, and the people did not know him. In this case his wife and family, his associates and friends, knew him: they knew that he was a man of character and sterling honesty, etc., but the public did not know. They would have to wait and see. Now, the Lord Jesus had been tested, and that is what I wish to dwell upon. In what way was the Lord Jesus tested? He was down here a humble Man among men, and His constant activity was doing good. Can you find a single instance where the Lord did not help those who were in need where He came in contact with them? You take the passage in Luke 7. See what a marvellous presentation it is of the heart of Christ! The chapter begins with Christ recognised as in an official position, and what does He do? He heals the sick man. The Lord was a Man in authority; He could say to His servant, Do this, and he did it; thus the servant was healed.

Now look at the following picture: the woman at the gate of the city called Nain. What is He going to do now? What could all the power of the empire combined do? Simply nothing. It was powerless in the presence of death; but the Lord Jesus Christ had compassion on the widow, and He raised her son from the dead and delivered him to her. I say that is the Man who ought to be in the place of power -- a Man who can

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have compassion on a widow. That Man alone is entitled to the place of power, and He is the Man who gets it. In that way He has been tested. I say, increase that Man's power as quickly as possible. He is the Man to be in power. I could understand any of those characters in Luke 7 -- the centurion, the woman at the gate of the city of Nain and the woman who came into the Pharisee's house -- saying to themselves, What a wonderful thing it would be if that Man were in the place of the emperor.

Now, what did God do? He put Him in the supreme place of the universe; and now His power is universal. Everywhere the power of Christ will triumph until every hostile power is removed from God's universe. I say it is only right and proper; it is what is suitable, that the meek and lowly Man, the One who died for His people, should be exalted and given the highest place in the heavens. There is a passage in Acts 5 which I think would support in a way what I am saying. It says, "They ceased not teaching and announcing the glad tidings that Jesus was the Christ", Acts 5:42. What were the glad tidings? That Jesus was Christ: Jesus, the Man who would do anything to help people. That Man has been made Lord and Christ. That is glad tidings. Suppose a man has a family and he is in need, and his eldest son, who is in the confidence of the father and knows all about the trouble of the family, is taken up by a sovereign and made supreme in the nation; what would the man and his family receive from that son? That son would do all in his power for the family: he has affection for them. What would be glad tidings to that family but that the eldest son is made supreme in the nation and that he has the king's resources at his disposal? I say that is not half a picture of Christ. Look at those poor disciples whom He left down here in the midst of a hostile world. He is

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going up to heaven, to the place of power, and will He forget them? No, the very first thing that He does is to "shed forth this", as Peter says (Acts 2:33); and what was that? It was what they needed. They needed the Holy Ghost. You may say, I need the forgiveness of sins. You do, but you need the Holy Ghost. The Lord Jesus Christ did the very best thing He could have done for the disciples and for man in the gift of the Holy Ghost. It was the only possible means of salvation for the people of God in view of the fact that the Lord Jesus Christ was absent from this world. While He was down here He kept them; for He says, "Those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled". John 17:12. But since He is gone, in what way are they to be kept? The only way is the way which He has devised Himself: the gift of the Holy Ghost. "He hath shed forth this", says Peter, "which ye now see and hear". Acts 2:33. It was present. The Lord in going to the right hand of power had done the very best He could have done.

Maybe you would like a position in this world. The Lord would not give you a position like that; it is not good enough for you. No, He would give you a place in His own world. He would give you a position of dignity. He would set you up in power in His own world. That is what the Lord proposes to do. He established a world entirely of His own order, of His own liking and of His own device; He has established it Himself, and He proposes to give you and me an abiding place in it. That is His thought for you. But He would meet your present need. There was the need of the centurion. I do not know what your need is, and perhaps you do not know what your need is, but the Lord knows. He knew the centurion's need. He knew the need of the woman at the gate of Nain,

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and He met it. And the woman in the last part of the chapter who came into Simon's house: what did she need? You say she needed forgiveness. She received forgiveness, but I think she needed more than that: she had affection. She did not come to get forgiveness, I am bold to say. It is a poor thing to come to Christ simply for forgiveness. I am not belittling forgiveness, but it is a poor thing to come to Christ for it alone. This woman would not have come to Christ for forgiveness: the barrier that lay between her and Christ was too great. She could never have surmounted it for that barrier was Simon's house. You must remember it was not an ordinary house. Simon's house was the house of a Pharisee, and it was the last place in the world where a woman such as she would dare to enter to ask forgiveness of Christ. If it had been merely a question of need she would have waited until Christ came out of the house. Everything (the whole atmosphere of the place) was against her. You know, generally, if you want to ask a favour of a man you wait until you find him under the most favourable circumstances, where the conditions are not adverse; hence I think if this woman had wanted forgiveness only she would have waited till He came out.

What, think you, took that woman into that place? Christ took her in. The Magnet was there -- she had affection. The Lord said of her, "she loved much". Luke 7:47. Christ had become a magnet to her heart and she saw no barriers. All the barriers are overthrown by love; it is as strong as death. But this woman had to go out of Simon's house again, and I will tell you why: the house did not belong to Christ. Do you think He would have sent her away? No, I am sure the Lord felt it that He did not have a house of His own. There she was at the Lord's feet weeping, washing His feet with

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tears and wiping them with the hairs of her head. That woman was not thinking of forgiveness: what she had before her was Christ. He did forgive her. The Lord says, "her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much". Luke 7:47. If you love Christ you are forgiven. The Lord tells her, "Go in peace". But why, "Go"? Because the house did not belong to Him. It was Simon's house. She came in because He was there. She would never have come in otherwise. He did not ask her to stay.

Friend, if you come to Christ tonight, He will never send you away. He will not say "Go". Why? He has a house now. And what will you find there? There are no barriers. The atmosphere is not adverse now. No, beloved friends, it is the best time in the world to come for forgiveness; but do not come for forgiveness merely, come for Christ. You will find Him in His house. You will never find the Lord's people sending you away: they have love for you. If you want forgiveness, you will find it, but you may stay too. You will not only get a scripture to prove that your sins are forgiven, but you will get the atmosphere, so to speak, of forgiveness among the Lord's people, which is love, and you will not want to go away. Some people get what they call salvation from the Lord, and then they go away, but that is a heartless thing. The idea of salvation away from Christ is an absolute impossibility: there is not salvation in any other. If you go away from Christ you go away from salvation. I did not intend to speak about the woman in Luke 7, but I do like the idea of the Lord having a place to which He can invite His guests and where He can ask them, so to speak, to stay.

I wanted to connect Luke 7 with Acts 4, because in the fourth of Acts you get the idea of an official. Peter had preached his third sermon (so far as the Scripture goes) since the descent of the Holy Ghost:

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the first one in the second chapter, the second one in the third chapter, and the third is found in the fourth chapter. I think the prominent thought in every single one of these sermons was, not that people might be blessed (although of course this is in view) but that people had been blessed. That was what he was speaking about it: was the proof of Christ's exaltation. The thing was there: the man at the gate of the temple was Peter's witness, he was with him. I always read a Scripture myself when I try to speak, and it is necessary to support everything you state by Scripture, but the basis of your preaching is not exactly Scripture. I suppose you will all admit that the apostles were the best preachers. Notice how they presented the gospel: Peter quoted Scripture, but the great convincing argument was in the man who had been healed. "Beholding the man which was healed standing with them, they could say nothing against it". Acts 4:14. It was undeniable as living and evident support to the testimony he bore. I think from Peter's preaching in these three sermons you will get the true idea of preaching; his point in each case was what was there already, what nobody could deny, and this was the result of Christ being made Lord in heaven.

Among the one hundred and twenty were the wonderful things of God. Beloved friends, it may be you do not know much about the things of God. There they all were at the beginning, every one of them, and every single thought of God is wonderful. When the Holy Ghost came into the one hundred and twenty the wonderful things of God were there: all that is in the heart and mind of God. The saints were talking about these things, and Peter arose and explained the matter. It was a masterpiece, the sermon which the apostle preached. It was an explanation that what was there in Jerusalem on that day was consequent on the installation of Christ

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on high. The best Man, the only Man fit for the place had been installed in His office at the right hand of God, and the result was the presence of the Holy Ghost down here in the saints, in the one hundred and twenty. In the second chapter, Peter preached to the men of Judea and the inhabitants of Jerusalem; in the third he speaks to the men of Israel. The nation of Israel is appealed to, and on what ground? The lame man, the impotent man, who had been sitting at the gate of the temple asking alms, was there walking and leaping and praising God. There is the illustrious power of God for good. There is the evidence of it and it cannot be denied. It is wonderful. God takes up every kind of man and speaks to them through Peter, first, to the men of Jerusalem, then to the nation of Israel, then to the elders of Israel. These latter were Sadducees. They were opposed to God. They were infidels; and yet God speaks to them through Peter. But the groundwork of each sermon was the power of God. Note how he speaks to the elders: Christ was the Nazarene. He was of no account in their estimation; they had crucified Him, but God had raised Him from the dead and made Him the head of the corner. The elders of the Jews might say, Peter, how do you know; what is the evidence of it? Well there was a man who had been lame from his mother's womb, walking, leaping and praising God, and they could not say a word, their mouths were closed. There was the evidence of the power of God.

I do not feel that I can say much more. I should like to have spoken a little more about salvation, but I have really anticipated it. "Salvation is in none other". I think you can understand that a Man who would save people down here, who spent all His time (and His pleasure was in it) while down here in doing good, would not change His style nor His occupation when He went into the place of power.

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And He did not charge His occupation. Christ has the power of God in His hand arid He is using it for salvation. He is not using it to destroy men's lives. He will use that power to destroy the world-power. He will clothe Himself with salvation and He will come out in power and destroy everything that opposes or exalts itself against God, but He is not doing that now.

If you only knew the Lord, you would say He is the only Man for the office and you would be unlimited in your expectations from Him. He will do the very best for you, and I would encourage every single person in this room tonight, whether you are a Christian or not, from my knowledge of Christ, not only from what I see in the Scriptures, but from my own personal knowledge of Christ, you would do well to commit yourself into His hands. "There is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved". Acts 4:12.

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SONSHIP

Ezekiel 1:26 - 28; Ezekiel 2:1; Acts 9:19 - 20;

Ephesians 1:3 - 6

What I wish to make clear is that the recovery of man for God is in sonship. God, having lost man in Adam's fall, has recovered him in sonship, and hence in permanency. The recovery is in Christ who is the Son, and the Son abides in the house forever, it will be found that when God undertakes to re-establish anything He does it in permanency; sonship involves this as to man; and so henceforth he will be seen only in this state before God. It is true that after Adam's sin, man, as in the flesh, was taken up and owned of God, as in Noah and Israel, but this was provisional in view of the coming of Christ. One mark of a son is that he has intelligence as to God's mind, and he delights in what God accomplishes. When the earth was founded "the morning stars sang together, and all the Sons of God shouted for joy", Job 38:7.

But I will dwell first on the passages read in Ezekiel, connecting a thought or two in them with Acts 9. There is what the prophet calls, "The appearance of the likeness of the glory of the Lord;" I desire to dwell on this, and I wish, also, to refer to Ezekiel, viewing him as son of man -- the appellation by which he is addressed as commissioned to bear witness to the people.

God had been pleased to connect His glory with Israel, and this involved that His thought was that the nation should be the means of blessing on the earth; but the book of Ezekiel shows that it had utterly failed in this. In chapter 1 the prophet is seen outside the territory of Israel where, had the people been faithful, the glory would have been; he is in the land of the Chaldeans, by the river

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Chebar, and there the heavens were opened, and he saw visions of God. What he saw he speaks of as "the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the Lord". The glory of God means blessing for men, and therefore the display of it involves that God has a free hand to act according to His nature and counsels. The gospel announces this, and so it is designated as "The glad tidings of the glory of the blessed God", 1 Timothy 1:11.

God has infinite resources, and so He is not limited to any individual or institution although He may take up one or other in His wisdom. Israel had utterly broken down, they had "not wrought any deliverance in the earth", and yet would have assumed that God was limited to them; but we see in Ezekiel 1 a combination of divine agencies outside Israel, and independent of them. These agents suggest the dispensations under which they appeared, but they are marked by intelligence, strength, firmness, and rapidity, and they are perfectly united. The point is, that all this wonderful array of executive power is under God's hand in the presence of Israel's failure. The living creatures and the wheels are under the firmament, but they are under the control of a Man above the firmament. The agents of divine power are seen where human need is, but they are controlled by Christ in heaven. "Above the firmament ... was the likeness of a throne ... and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it". This is not the throne of David, but a universal throne occupied by Christ as Man; it has reference to man as such. It is analogous to the Lord's present position as Lord.

Acts 9 sets this before us. Here we see how the Lord, although in heaven, is controlling things down here with a view to the good and blessing of man. As in Ezekiel's day, Israel had shown themselves utterly unfit and unwilling to be the agents of divine

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blessing. Jesus had been in their midst, and although they had crucified Him, He was ready to return to them, did they but repent. Stephen saw Him in heaven standing, and the glory with Him; that glory was reflected in the face of the witness, but it was of no avail; every overture was rejected. Had the Jews repented, Christ would have come back and reinstated them as the centre of God's government on the earth, see Acts 3:19 - 26. But instead of repenting, they stoned Stephen, and now the Lord is seen as operating and controlling agencies outside their territory -- in Damascus. A light from heaven appears to Saul, and Jesus speaks to him. Saul recognises Him in authority; he says, "Lord". That Man is above the firmament, but there are agencies down here which He directs for the blessing of men. Indeed, an almighty power is on earth on our behalf, but the authority is up there. The Holy Ghost acts in relation to the authority vested in Christ. The Lord had a servant in Damascus who would tell Saul what to do; this was Ananias. I refer to him as corresponding to the living creatures in Ezekiel's vision. He was a bit rebellious, but still he does the Lord's bidding; and he is in the spirit of his Master. Saul, on entering Damascus, finds a brother: Ananias says "Brother Saul", etc. Who has placed that Christian, or that company of Christians, near to you? The Lord has done it, and they are there for your good. They love you and care for you. The words of Ananias must have been as balm to Saul. Ananias put his hands on this needy man -- the touch of a brother! But all is from Jesus. Ananias says, "The Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me". And now note the object in view in the mission of this servant of Christ: "That thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost". What infinite blessing it meant for

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Saul, and through him, for men in general! But such is the character of Christ's administration from the throne at the present time.

Let us now look for a moment at Ezekiel 2:1 - 3, where the prophet is addressed as son of man. This was the title the Lord took when Israel's rejection of Him came fully to light. The disciples should tell no man that He was Jesus the Christ, but there were those who should see the Son of man coming in His kingdom, Matthew 16:20, 28. It was as if the Lord had said of the Jews, They have not appreciated Messiah's presence in their midst, and they are about to kill Him; therefore I am taking a place in relation to men as such, as Son of man, so that I may render them the service which that relationship suggests. As Son of David the Gentiles had no claim on Him, but as Son of man He is available to all. A son in a family will do all possible to help the family if they are in need, and those in the family are justified in expecting this. There is nothing to fear from the Son of man, and now that He has died and risen, He is for men in all the value of redemption. The Son of man is a title taken in grace (it is a title involving universal dominion and glory too) and it has the effect of dispelling all fear from our hearts, and of establishing confidence in the Lord there. Ezekiel was sent to the people as son of man, and this was in keeping with the vision he had seen; and every true evangelist is imbued with the spirit and grace which the appellation involves. Therefore, there can be no doubt that Christ is glorified as the Son of man morally by the preaching of the gospel, and by what it has effected for men.

In Acts 9 Saul at once preached Christ as Son of God. This was the result of the impression made upon his heart by the Lord's appearance; it was in accordance with his commission, Galatians 1:16, although

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his apostolic ministry began in a regular way at Antioch, Acts 13. But Saul's preaching at Damascus indicated a point of departure in the testimony. Jerusalem was now abandoned as a centre owned of God; a Man in heaven, in all the liberty and dignity of sonship with God, was now known in the heart of a man on earth, and announced by him as glad tidings among the nations. Christ was no longer waiting to return to Israel, as Stephen saw him: He was Himself the Centre of a new system altogether, and this should take character from Himself it should be free "Jerusalem above is free". Galatians 4:26.

It is of the very greatest importance that sonship should be understood. Many believers are like slaves or strangers in the attitude of their souls toward God. God has not pleasure either in a slave or a stranger. The slave has to go out of the house, Galatians 4:30, and the stranger is under tribute, Matthew 17:28. In Matthew's gospel we may trace the order in which the truth of sonship came out. "This is my beloved Son, in whom I have found my delight" (Matthew 3:17) gives us the clue to it; this indicates that God had reached His thought in Man. Chapters 11: 27, and 16: 17, 18, agree, in a way, with Saul's preaching in Acts 9. Christ being rejected by Israel, everything turns on the Son of God.

But the saints should come into the enjoyment of sonship and Matthew 17 helps greatly as to this. To pay tribute in God's house means that you are a stranger. An unconverted man may well be placed under tribute in the assembly -- there is no liberty there for man in the flesh -- but the believer should understand that it is his place. The believer is a son, and the sons are free. Of course there is no liberty for the flesh, but God would impress upon us that He wishes us to be free and happy before Him. "God sent forth his Son ... that we might receive sonship", Galatians 4:4, 5. If we have slavish fear in

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His presence, God would assure us that we are sons and if we are possessed, in any degree, of the spirit of a stranger, and so feel that there is a demand upon us, He would tell us that we are "no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow-citizens with the saints, and of the household of God", Ephesians 2:19.

Galatians treats of sonship in the way of light, so that saints should be preserved from bondage, or if in bondage, delivered from it; Ephesians connects it with God's eternal counsels in regard to us. The Ephesian saints had been formed by the Spirit; they had not only the light and spirit of sonship, but were evidently formed in the intelligence and affection which the relationship implies. Hence they would appreciate what the epistle unfolds. God opens up His counsels to us as we are prepared to appreciate them. As in the realisation of sonship, we are in sympathy with God in all that He purposes to do. Sonship is not limited to the church, but at the same time, it will be known in a distinct way by us. Christians are blessed with "every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies in Christ, ... having marked us out beforehand for adoption" (sonship) "through Jesus Christ to himself". Ephesians 1:3,5. There are blessings and relationships which the church enjoys in connection with heaven, but which are also shared by others in a modified and earthly way. But the more we enter into our own distinct, heavenly portion, the more are we sympathetic with God in what He accomplishes in the whole realm of His counsels.

May God grant unto His people that intelligence and liberty of affection which are peculiar to sons! Thus shall we answer to His thought in recovering man in Christ.

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GUIDANCE

EVERY true-hearted believer seeks to be guided aright, and it is the present thought of the Lord, as ever, that there should be a needed supply of light for His people. The church has always been cared for in this respect, and never more so than in our own day. The effort of the enemy, however, is to discredit, or otherwise render ineffectual, what has been given; his great aim being to hinder the saints from realising the divine end in view. This of course is nothing new; it has ever been his way. If he cannot extinguish the light entirely he will endeavour to divert from it by the introduction of counter issues, by some line of things, it may be which in its own day served its intended purpose, but is no longer effectual, There are not only numerous illustrations of this in Scripture; they abound all over Christendom. When communion with the mind of God for the moment is lost there will be a gradual, but certain departure; a lower line will be adopted and the measure in which this becomes prominent will be the measure in which what is really of God for the time will be lost to our view.

What strikes one is the prevalence of latitudinarianism. There seems immense scope as to what may be regarded as truth and as to what may be refused, and the principle of agreement to differ seems largely recognised. There may be the most radical divergence of mind on vital subjects and yet fellowship with one another is assumed. That there should be a distinct ministry of the Spirit seems a matter of doubt, and that the saints have the ability to locate such a ministry still more so. But cannot the saints tell what is of God? They are said to have an unction from the Holy One and to know all things. Hence they can discern what is of God and the contrary.

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Otherwise we are not, after all, much better off than Pilate we are still asking, "What is truth?"

To the humble Christian it is not a matter of doubt or surprise that the Good Shepherd should constantly meet the needs of His flock; to him the Lord's remark that the sheep should hear His voice is perfectly intelligible. Further, every thoughtful and exercised believer cannot fail to know that the Lord has been speaking very directly to His people. He knows too that what has been presented has become the very essence and spring of his joy and progress. He prizes it for this reason and also because he knows its source: he knows it comes from the Lord, and is conscious that it is essential to his existence as a witness for Christ down here. But he is not shut up to what has already come: he looks for more from the One who has given so much, and who is rich unto all that call upon Him. He is not discouraged although quite alive to the deadly antagonism of Satan, who becomes more and more infuriated as the blessed light of God gradually gains a footing in the hearts of men. But the Christian goes on in peace. He knows the chariots of God are twenty thousand, thousands of thousands and the Lord is among them. The chariots surround the light and the testimony (see 2 Kings 6:17) and his safety lies its being where these are.

It will be found that while God ever meets the current need of His people, yet He does this very largely by leading them into the intelligence of His mind as to what is before Him, and divine guidance will be found in connection with this latter. The tabernacle presents the idea of what was in the mind of God, and from the first moment of its being set up among the Israelites guidance for them stood identified with it. This is a very important point, and it holds good for all times. It indicates the predominating importance of the testimony. Other

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things had their place, such as the needs and discipline of the people, and great mention is made of these, but beyond all question the most prominent feature of the wilderness was the tabernacle of witness.

Directly the redemption of the people had been effected God began to unfold the magnificent system He had before Him. For forty days He communed with Moses on the mount, and during all this time the theme was the vast plan, or system of blessing, which His heart cherished, and which would in due time take form and come to pass in Christ. This system was indicated in a structure (the tabernacle),+ a pattern of which was shown to Moses. Inseparably connected with this was the priestly institution. Seven chapters (Exodus 25 - 31) give details of the pattern and four more (Exodus 36 - 39) record the accurate construction, according to this pattern, of the tabernacle. All completed it was reared up by Moses and anointed in every part of it with oil. Then "the cloud covered the tent of the congregation, and the glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle", Exodus 40:34. Wonderful scene! Viewed according to what it represented nothing can exceed it in importance. Every part of that wondrous figurative representation of things in the heavens furnishes the most precious instruction, and the heart is lost in wonder as the whole is taken together and the infinite scheme of blessedness which God has purposed for man is apprehended. But this can be the portion only of those who have the Spirit, who alone can instruct us "as to all things"; 1 John 2:27. These figures all refer to Christ, who came by (in connection with) the greater and more perfect tabernacle, i.e., the great moral system, hence they are altogether outside the range of man's mind. They are the "things of God" and are apprehended

+The word is used in the singular, the pattern was shown to Moses on the Mount.

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only by those who have the Spirit of God. Here we may notice the extreme carefulness with which human innovation in the least degree was precluded in the divine instructions. Everything was to be made exactly according to the pattern shown. We find too that the greatest care was taken that this injunction should be complied with. Thus the mind of man was utterly refused and shut out, from the very outset, from the sphere of divine things.

The thought is not, however, to dilate on the tabernacle, even if one had the ability to do this, but rather to point out, as already indicated, that guidance for the people stood connected with it. This is very evident, as the verses immediately succeeding those already quoted easily show. "And when the cloud was taken up from over the tabernacle, the children of Israel went onward in all their journeys; but if the cloud were not taken up, then they journeyed not till the day that it was taken up. For the cloud of the Lord was upon the tabernacle by day, and fire was on it by night, in the sight of all the house of Israel, throughout all their journeys", Exodus 40:36 - 38. The pillars of cloud and fire had led the way before, but now that God had advanced in His ways guidance for the people henceforth must be in accord with the further consequent light.

We are justified in regarding all this to have direct reference to the present time. We are not now living in the age of figures; we have come to the great substance and reality. The Lord did not come down from heaven with a pattern: He was in Himself the great Substantiality of all; i.e., in the sense that all would take form and come into being through and in Him. But the order indicated in the shadow is bound to appear in the substance; that is self-evident. Hence the immensely preponderating importance of God's testimony is established and it is also clearly seen that guidance for the saints stands

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connected with it. There may be zeal and activity and much outward show, but if the great thought which God has purposed in Christ be disregarded we are sure to miss our way.

The tabernacle was an integral whole and the pillar of cloud rested upon it as such -- it did not rest upon any fraction of it. If we take up one part, so to speak, of the divine system to the minimising of the others we diverge from the mind of the Spirit. The church of course has a wonderful place and too much can scarcely be made of it; still, it is not all. It fills a great and blessed place in the divine system, but it is still, a part of that vast scheme. Its place is in the heavenly places, but not as disconnected from the scene below. There is "the breadth and length and the depth and height" It is all one vast and blessed scene, as we have said, pervaded by the Spirit (the anointing oil) and filled with the glory of God.

May the Lord enable us to maintain the light of it in our souls till that blessed "world to come" bursts upon us, when we shall come out in holy splendour as the very crown of it all! In this way only shall we tread the divine path and show to all that we seek a heavenly country and a city which hath foundations whose Builder and Maker is God.

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PHILADELPHIA

Revelation 3:7 - 13.

IF saints are to be encouraged the true way is to present Christ to them. Whatever the confusion in the church there is no change in Him, nor can there be. Many physical changes and disorders have taken place in the history of the earth, but these do not affect the sun. Clouds have enveloped the earth, but could we but get to the other side of such clouds we should find the sun shining as ever. It has thus been with Christ; the disloyalty and lawlessness which have marked the history of the church have not altered Him in the least degree; He is "the same yesterday, and today, and for ever". Hebrews 13:8. Not that He may not change in attitude and conduct, for He does, as the addresses to the churches clearly show; but all such changes of conduct and appearance are sure to be the outcome of what He is. The judicial habiliments in which He presents Himself in relation to the seven assemblies indicated a change in them, not in Him.

We can readily understand that this new attitude towards those that assumed to be His down here was far from congenial to Him, it did not savour of "with desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer". Luke 22:15. Ah, no there it was Himself simply, in all that affection and familiarity which ever marked His intercourse with those who shared His affliction and reproach in this world. But here all is changed; it is no longer, "ye have loved me", John 16:27, but "thou hast left thy first love", Revelation 2:4. Hence the external change in the Lord. It is one thing to enjoy the reciprocated affection of a loved object, and quite another to be conscious of having lost it, and in the endeavour to recover the loss to be under the painful necessity of

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issuing a threat of punishment, on account of the course entered on leading to certain wickedness. This is what the opening chapters of the Revelation present. But in the midst of the prevailing heartlessness it is most encouraging to find, that wherever the least spark of appreciation of Christ appears, the Lord always responds in terms which bespeak His changeless affection for His own, whatever the garb in which He may be attired.

This is verified in John's case. All this judicial display was a new sight to "the disciple whom Jesus loved". John had been accustomed to Jesus -- the lowliest and most approachable of all men that ever trod the earth. We need not therefore wonder at his fear. But there was really no need for it, for the official dignity in which the Lord appeared had not any reference to him; there was nothing in his circumstances to call it forth; the trouble was not in Patmos, but in Asia Minor. John was in Patmos "for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus". There was nothing in this to condemn, surely not. Hence the Lord is quick to assure and encourage His devoted servant. He says, "Fear not ... I am he that liveth and was dead". It was as much as to say, 'John, you have nothing to fear; I am He who died [John would well understand this] and I am alive for evermore'. He identified Himself to John in terms which involved His love; which involved Himself.

This also appears in the address to the assembly in Philadelphia. The Lord recognises in this assembly appreciation of Himself. That which He is about to judge is apostate Christendom, and He has ability to deal with it. Later on in the book of Revelation this corrupt system is seen riding upon the beast. This He repudiates; He destroys it root and branch. But in Philadelphia the Lord recognises affection for

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Himself and interest in His things. We are justified in assuming this from the character of the address; He speaks of Himself and of the things which related to Himself; and we may be certain He would not thus speak were it not that there was in those addressed an appreciation of what He said. We may further assume that the whole church was in His mind when He spoke to this local company at Philadelphia, and it is not conceivable that those who have "ears to hear" would have it otherwise. If the energy of the Spirit has become effectual in us we are sure to include all the saints in our affections, and we would not limit the Lord to anything less.

Following the course of the churches I take it Philadelphia is hidden from public view -- well known to Christ, but practically hidden. The great public body is Thyatira, which continues to the end. Thyatira eventuates in the harlot who rides the beast; she courts publicity. But in Philadelphia (really the saints in the energy of the Spirit) one sees contentment in the knowledge that she is not hidden from Christ. She appreciates Him and He knows it; this was enough for her. Publicity would come in due time; then all would know that He loved her.

It is an immense thing to arrive at the understanding that the Lord is acquainted with and values the very tiniest spark of affection for Himself, wherever found. The fact is, if it is there at all He has placed it there, and He knows all about His own work. Peter recognised the Lord's perfect knowledge of things. He says, "thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee", John 21:17. Others, perhaps, could not tell (Peter's conduct had not indicated it), but the Lord knew all things, therefore He knew.

It is our wisdom to candidly admit the true condition of things, that that which has the responsibility

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of being the candlestick has not only left its first love, but is irrevocably committed to wickedness, and hence that it has been definitely given up by the Lord. This is seen in the address to the church at Thyatira. It is true the Lord does not state in His letter to this church that He will spue her out of His mouth, but His declaration that Jezebel would not repent, and His recognition of a remnant are to the exercised ear the announcement that the public body has been given up morally. The maintenance of God's testimony must be looked for elsewhere; an unrepentant Jezebel and the testimony of the meek and rejected Jesus must stand widely apart. This the remnant understand. They do not, however, assume to be the candlestick; to do so would be ignorance and folly. If that which was set up here by the energy of apostolic testimony failed utterly in this, what hope was there for the few scattered saints of the middle ages, hidden, as one might say, in the shrubbery which surrounded the great Roman "tree"? He says, "I will put upon you none other burden, but that which ye have already hold fast till I come". His coming was now the prospect, and they were, so to speak, to hold out till that epoch. His presence here would take the place of the candlestick. Here Luther missed the mark, it seems to me. Instead of accepting the ruin and looking for the Lord to come, and leaning on Him alone in the interim, he turned to ecclesiastical organisation. This made room for the world -- hence Protestantism. But what the reformers missed is found in Philadelphia, and this, thank God, goes on to the end.

From what the Lord says to Philadelphia, and the promises to the overcomer there, we may gather that there was a very great advance on the state of the remnant in Thyatira. "The temple of my God"; "the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God"; and

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"my new name", all indicated that on the part of the overcomer in this church there was appreciation of Christ personally, and intelligence in His things. They refer to what will be displayed in the coming age, which had now become the supreme interest of the faithful. May the Lord grant that it may be so with each one of us!

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ORDER

The Spirit of God is intolerant of disorder. He is aware of its existence universally. He not only recognises the dreadful confusion in the church, He is fully cognisant of disorder in the entire moral universe, and abhors it. God abhors it and will not rest till it is replaced by order. This is the line He has ever been on since the introduction of disorder into His creation. He had brought order out of chaos in creating the physical universe, but there was not only a physical universe brought into being; a moral one was also formed. There was the idea of headship and government in man, the lower creation recognising this; and kindred beings (Adam and Eve) enjoying mutual affection, and these also holding a measure of intercourse with the Creator above. All this presents a very blessed system, and one in which divine order was apparent. The physical system presented the most minute order, and this it ever retains; sin has not interfered with it. The heavenly bodies move on still in their regular courses with infinite precision. They abide in their places. But this alas! cannot be said of the moral system; disorder, as already said, marks it everywhere. A lion meets a man in the field and slays him; this is disorder. It is violence no doubt, but it is also disorder. Had the beast been regulated by his appointed law he could not have slain a man. On the other hand, a man worships a reptile; here also is disorder, he has left his appointed place. Or he puts away his wife and so on. In every thread of the fabric disorder and chaos are visible.

In the church at the outset there was a certain recovery of order; at least as far as men were concerned. Christ had become law to the church, and this law governed it. For a time it abode in Christ.

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This however is no longer visible in the public body; it has veered from its orbit, so to speak, and become a wandering star, shooting off to destruction. Hence here confusion and lawlessness are found as elsewhere.

Now all this is serious in the extreme, and is so regarded by every divinely taught person. The intelligent Christian is very serious about it. He instinctively looks for order and peace, but in quest of these his eye meets with but disappointment everywhere he turns. Happily for him he can retreat into the secret of God's purpose within the veil, and there his eye, by the Spirit, may rest with unwearied gaze on the Prince of Peace, the Blessed One by whom order and peace will so soon be established universally. This is the Christian's privilege, and his joy and strength, as well as his discernment, will be in proportion to the frequency of his visits there.

Now no person with divine sensibilities can fail to be deeply concerned by the prevailing condition of things; and proportionate to this will be his resentment of the foul influence that has brought all to pass. He feels there can be no rest till God's universe is cleared of every trace of satanic power. Of course the time for this has not yet arrived, but at the same time it is involved in the testimony of the church; and further, I believe the next movement of the tent of testimony will be in that direction, The tent of testimony has now remained, so to speak, a long time stationary; the cloud has not been lifted really for well nigh twenty centuries ("many days", an indefinite period, Numbers 9:22) as far as one can judge. But we can well understand the long delay: the nature of God explains it: "the long suffering of our Lord is salvation". 2 Peter 3:15. Its present position involves that in which God delights -- mercy. Hence we should not be over impatient for a change. It bodes good for man that the tent of the testimony should remain

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where it is. This long period is what scripture calls "the well accepted time", "the day of salvation" 2 Corinthians 6:2 -- day of greatest possibilities for humanity; wrath and judgment do not belong to it. I believe God is loath to turn away from it. But God will revert to wrath, and this will mean a very decided movement of the tent of testimony. Indeed there will be movement till the divine purpose to head up all things in Christ is finally reached. Then order and peace will be established everywhere, and God will rest in His love.

It is evident in Scripture that Christ will be the active agent in all this; He will be the great regulating force in that day. His purging the temple (John 2:14 - 17) was an indication of this. He+ begins at the top and expunges disorder and lawlessness from the heavens by casting out thence the Devil and his angels. Then He proceeds to the scenes below. Here the wine press of the fury of God is trodden, and the beast and false prophet are cast alive into the lake of fire. Satan himself is also bound. We can thus well understand the force of the scripture, "the zeal of thine house hath eaten me up" John 2:17.

Having thus disposed of the bad the Lord sets to work to put the good into order according to its various parts. Here again He begins at the top; He begins with the church. The church is assigned its place; then the tribes of Israel are raised up and set as the centre of what is terrestrial. The nations also come into view; at His bidding they enter the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world. They are the blessed of His Father and walk in the light of the holy city. All here is on the footing of resurrection. This not only refers to the church, it holds good as to Israel and the nations as well. All is established on the principle of "life

+If Michael be not Christ (Revelation 12) he undoubtedly acts under the Lord’s direction.

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from among the dead". Israel is dead nationally, and the nations of those that are to be saved are also dead at the present time. It would be futile to attempt to locate either the one or the other. They are in the purpose of God and will be revived in due time by Christ. The fact is that all that is to be displayed on the part of God is entirely hidden at the present time. It is like a perfectly formed statue, but veiled. It will remain so till the fulness of time arrives, when it will be unveiled in rapid order. For this the Christian longs, but in patience still waits. He knows there will be no external change till the tent of testimony moves, and so contents himself with filling out the will of God amid the present sorrowful condition of things.

While the Christian groans with the rest of the creation, feeling the pressure of things; while he shares fully the sentiments expressed in the lines: -

"We look for Thine appearing,
Thy Presence here to bless
We greet the day that's nearing,
When all this woe shall cease", (Hymn 200)

yet order and peace may be preserved and richly enjoyed inwardly. Let us seek to discover how this is effectuated.

It must be evident that if Christ is to be the great regulator of the universe in the coming age, He also must regulate individuals at the present time; that is, if any are to be regulated. Now chaos prevailed everywhere when the Lord came into the world, and the disciples formed part of this as much as others. He did not remove the chaos; He changed nothing externally, but He delivered them from it. As He moved about, one and another came to Him, and each one coming found himself set right. He found the divinely appointed centre; One who was to become law to him. He was no longer to do what was right in his own eyes; henceforth he would

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be governed by Christ. This is very simple and evident, and nothing can be more interesting than to note the manner in which it came to pass during the Lord's ministry. While the intelligence of the disciples was meagre, yet it is not difficult to perceive that Christ was supreme and everything to the little band that followed Him. It was the one spot, as it were, where the eye of God could rest amidst the prevailing din of confusion, and strife. It was, however, broken up for a moment by His apprehension and death, but only to be taken up again on the footing of resurrection.

It is wonderful to note how the Lord held the saints (there was of course much weakness and failure on their part), and as a consequence, the order and peace that obtained among them - His ascension to heaven did not change this: the coming of the Holy Spirit established it. Hence in the early chapters of Acts the wonderful spectacle is witnessed of a company of men and women moving with perfect precision in relation to a Man in heaven! This is order. Let the reader inquire as to whether he is in it. The church alas! did not remain long in this blessed position. Hence it ceased to reflect Christ here and its recovery is no longer to be entertained. Recovery for individuals is, however, possible, and thank God, verified in many. It simply means that Christ has gained a footing in your heart and mind. It has dawned on you that He is great and divinely attractive, and hence you have learnt to prefer Him to yourself and all others. You have learnt to love Him, and to move about in this world as His and for Him. You are recovered; you are in order; peace fills your heart and you reflect Him here.

But this has to be maintained. We constantly require regulation; even the most advanced do. The tendency with us all is to become run down and out of order. Hence we need to be regulated

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almost continuously -- at least once in the week. There can be no doubt that the Lord's supper was instituted to this very end, The Lord is brought to our minds morally in the simple memorial. The charms of this heavenly grace and simplicity fill our souls (we are glad when we see the Lord) as He is thus before us. All sense of self-importance and harsh feelings toward other believers vanish in the presence of such grace and affection as are brought afresh to our attention. In this way we get a fresh start on the first day of the week, the Lord's day, and are set forward on our journey, having been brought afresh into touch with the Lord and His people by the Spirit.

May the moral greatness of Christ thus presented in the supper affect His people profoundly, and may we in this way be delivered from counter influences, and held and controlled by Him alone till the end!

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THE KINGDOM

Substance of a Reading on Exodus 15.

SPEAKING in a general way, I think the kingdom is presented in Scripture in two distinct connections: first, in relation to men, and secondly in relation to the inheritance. The former has reference to Egypt, the latter to Canaan.

God had no thought of rooting the Egyptians out of Egypt; His purpose was rather to deliver His people from them and it. This sets forth the present phase of the kingdom, and is the occasion of the song of Exodus 15. The form the kingdom has assumed at the present time is in the way of power, introduced for the deliverance of men from the enemy, and preserving them in his presence, so to speak, without disturbing his external position at all. Pharaoh and his warriors, it is true, were actually destroyed in the sea, but this alludes to the triumph of Christ in resurrection, and is for faith. Satan still wields his wonted power everywhere. Those who have been enlightened by the gospel, however, know that he has been overthrown and they do not fear him; further, they are conscious of a power down here greater than he, and in virtue of this hold themselves free of his influence. The singers on the banks of the Red Sea not only recognised that the Lord was a man of war, but were, it seems to me, conscious for the moment of the power by which the enemy was overthrown. This is the understanding one has of what marks this moment. Salvation involves not only what the Lord has done, but we stand consciously in the power of the Holy Ghost. The death, the resurrection, and ascension of Christ would not be of practical value to men at the present time were it not for the presence of the Spirit down here.

Not only are men held in the grip of Satan, but the

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inheritance is also held and occupied by him. This has not had the attention it deserves, but it is of immense importance in the mind of God. The inheritance must be cleared of the enemy, and this was what God had in view in the anointing of David. The anointing of David not only referred to Canaan but to the entire territory promised to Abraham. In the throne of David God really asserted His right to the world. David was not content with Canaan alone, he pushed his dominion as far as the Euphrates.

Jerusalem was to be the great centre. I think Jerusalem stands for the heavenlies. It was to be the great centre of light arid government. David had intelligence as to this from the outset; directly he slew the giant, he brought his head there. The city had been in the hands of the Jebusites until his day, but when he was acknowledged king over all Israel he repaired thither and took it. There his throne was established, and as a result, the power of evil was subjugated throughout the length and breadth of the inheritance; light and blessing also ensued and prevailed everywhere. All this refers to Christ. He has taken the token of victory into the heavens, and the Jebusites will soon be thrust out. The Lord has not yet taken up the throne of His father David, but when He does all adverse power will quickly be broken up arid dislodged.

It is a point of the very greatest importance that we should stand in the light of these things. It was a sad day for the ten tribes when they severed themselves from the house of David. It will be found that light and support stood connected with David's line and Jerusalem, while there was little else but darkness (except indeed the prophetic word, but this was in no way connected with royalty) associated with Samaria. Those who stand for the throne of David and Jerusalem are sure to find divine support.

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JUSTIFICATION AND THE DIVINE SYSTEM

READING on Romans 4.

The principle of justification on the principle of faith was established before law was introduced. It was set forth in Abraham. God said nothing to Abraham about law, but He said something to him about justification, and He gave him the seal of it. The idea of justification comes in in view of another world; we want justification for that. God began anew with Abraham on the principle of righteousness, of His rights; he stands forth as the one in whom God sets forth His rights. When Satan had succeeded in capturing man and the earth it was all darkness. There could not be greater darkness than in Genesis 11; there we find the record of the building of Babel. It is to this time Joshua alludes when he says, "Our fathers worshipped idols beyond the flood;" they were all idolators; Abraham himself no doubt was one. Their God came out in His sovereign rights and took up Abraham; and if He had a right to take up Abraham, He had a right to take up any man.

Here it is justification in view of what God has before Him; it is not in connection with the present system. God would make Abraham the father of the faithful, because He sets forth in him the principle of righteousness. Clearance is in Christ risen. The whole doctrine of the chapter is contained in the last two verses. The people of God in all ages have looked for something new, and the gospel is that which brings in the new thing. Justification gives clearance,. It is a standing in connection with God's new system; but people must get the Spirit, and that is another thing. You can scarcely get an illustration of justification in natural things; you are severed completely from the old status in the flesh, and there is a new system.

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Ques. What answers to justification in the history of the prodigal?

I should say the prodigal was justified when he had the best robe on. That is Christ. The best robe suited him for the house. It is not only that a man is acquitted -- he is set up anew in connection with the divine system. In justification he is made suitable for God's system. The point of this chapter is the power of God in raising Christ. The last two verses are the key.

Ques. Resurrection is often represented as a receipt: I suppose that is hardly correct?

The receipt, if we may use the expression, must be something received. It would be the Spirit. I would not present the resurrection; I would present Christ risen. That is how you are justified.

At the end of this chapter there is a turning point: Christ is seen as Lord in administration. Chapter 4 shows that the principle of justification came in before law; Abraham was accounted righteous before he was circumcised, and the apostle calls circumcision the seal of righteousness. We believe in Him who raised up Christ from the dead; that is, in God the same One in whom Abraham believed. It involves the setting aside of all that we are in the flesh. In Romans it is not so much Christ, but God in Christ. He has not only raised Christ from the dead, but He will raise us, and sever us from all that is unsuitable to His system. I have confidence in God. He has raised Christ and He will raise me. It is a question of His power. Circumcision is the setting aside of man in the flesh, We are accounted righteous on the ground of faith, but it is because God is powerful. Abraham knew that; he believed that God was able to do what He had promised. It is a question for us of what God can do.

There must be the setting aside of man according to the flesh. God could not use that man for His

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system. Men are all dead in God's account, and He could riot build His living system with dead material. Abraham had to learn after God had taken him up, that he must bring in circumcision. God is going to have a new system, and as men in the flesh you and I can have no part in it, nor could Abraham; he must be circumcised; he must learn that the flesh is of no account at all to God; God could not use him thus. God uses us by building us into His system. We are essential thus. The Lord must abide alone unless He dies. There was that vast scene, heaven and earth; what is to fill it? It had been filled before. The tower of Babel, and idolatry, and the Canaanite were there. God will displace them, and that with a living humanity. He breaks through, and raises Christ from the dead! God is powerful! If He is not, all is hopeless, but He says to Abraham, "I am the almighty God". We get the meaning of the living prefigured in Isaac; He was raised from the dead. The promise of blessing is to the seed of Abraham, that is Christ. Christ undertakes to do the thing; through Him God intends to bring in a new system, and hence the blessing. Isaac is Christ risen.

We are justified by believing on Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead. The question is, what can God do? He will bring in a new system; but there must be living material. What can He do with us as men in the flesh? We are all dying. If He used such material the building would not last. He must have living stones. This new system has begun already: Christ is the beginning of it. He is working away at it patiently, and it will come out perfect at the end. The Lord is a very particular builder; He is very particular as to His material, but if He builds, it must come out perfect at the end. There had been builders before -- for instance, in Babel. In wonderful condescension God presented

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Christ to the builders, Acts 4. He said, as it were, here is this Stone, what will you do with it? They cast it aside as worthless. Then God proposes to build. The Lord begins with the material right at hand, with those about Him. He turns to Peter with the question, "Whom say ye that I am?" Peter gives the answer, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God", and immediately the Lord says, "Thou art Peter",--a stone (Matthew 16:15, 16, 18). He will put him into the structure. Everyone of us, every living stone, is an evidence of divine power.

God had a completely new system before Him. Thus when the Jews rejected Christ, He set to work to establish a kingdom of His own. He could not use the Roman empire; it was of no use to Him; He would have a kingdom of His own. The first system, and that which still exists, began with Babel. It has continued on and finds its answer in Babylon. The scene of God's system is not to be merely heaven, it will be the heavens and the earth. The idea of heaven is prominent in scripture, but it is not so prominent in the gospel as is commonly assumed. Heaven is mentioned only twice in Romans, the great gospel epistle; and in the first instance it is to tell us that wrath comes from it. God calls things that be not as though they were. That is what God can do. He can account us risen though we are not so actually; He can account us so because He is able to raise us. Abraham knew that God was powerful, that He was able to give him an heir notwithstanding that both he and Sarah were as good as dead. The birth of Isaac was on the principle of resurrection.

Ques. How did Abraham get the idea of a city?

I think he had light as to what God had in His mind, and this involves a city. It involves three things; a kingdom, a city, and a house. The announcement of these three things is the gospel. The kingdom is necessary because there was an

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adverse kingdom -- there was opposition. Nimrod had a kingdom, but it was a rebellious one. Nimrod was a rebel, and his kingdom has gone on. The Lord proposed to establish a kingdom which would break to pieces every other kingdom that ever had been. The kingdom comes out in Matthew 13. The Lord would have a kingdom of His own; then He would have a city of His own; chapter 16 is the city, and it has foundations; it is built of living stones. It must have moral elements, elements of continuance -- so when Peter confesses Him to be the Son of the Living God, the Lord says to Him, "Thou art Peter, and on this Rock I will build my church". Matthew 16:18. Then the house is the place where there is a sphere of affection. It is the saints taken up in still another way. All three, the kingdom, the city, and the house are found in the saints. Thus the announcement of the gospel depends more on what is down here than on what is in heaven.

The kingdom has to do with what is adverse. The city is a metropolis; it has to do with government. In Matthew we see that government is in connection with the assembly. The assembly is the only authority that we recognise down here. Every kingdom has a metropolis; every metropolis has a home in it. It is one thing to be in the king's house, where his affections are known. It is another thing to be in the metropolis to pay court to him there. And it is still another thing to be simply a subject of the empire, off in one of the provinces. A man could be merely a subject without much education or polish; a farmer could make a very good subject, though he would not shine in the capital. A young convert may be a good subject, but you do not see much of Christ shown in him; he has not had time to know Him. But we want to see the polish and cultivation of the capital; the capital is the place where we want to be. Peter was like the farmer, a good subject,

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but not polished. The Lord says, "Learn from me". Matthew 11:29. Then the Lord walks on the water, and Peter walks on the water to get to Him. Matthew 14 and 15 and part of chapter 16 are a sort of college course; the Lord is preparing us for the capital. It is with that we must have to do. Chapter 16 is the capital, and in chapter 18 we see the bearing of it; it is the recognised source of authority. It is in this world that you are put into your place. It is a great thing to have your place in the capital.

Ques. Is not every one who is a believer in the church?

You must leave room for building. I like to think of the Lord as a Builder. If you are self-willed, or set for advancement in this world, He cannot use you. We get our place now; there will be no building in the millennium.

Ques. But surely every believer has some place in the house?

Normally it is so; at the beginning every believer received the Holy Spirit and was thus constituted part of the house. It is best however to keep to the order of Scripture; if you do, you must leave room for building. If you follow the order of Scripture, then you see that being a stone comes after salvation. The order is, "as new born babes desire the sincere milk of the word that ye may grow up to salvation": then comes, "if so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious" 1 Peter 2:2,3; and after that we have coming to Him, the Living Stone, and our being built up as living stones. That is the order of Scripture. What constitutes a stone is vitality, i.e., the believer is moving toward Christ. Scripture says, that after a man comes to Christ He is built in. He must get the material to build with. The thing to see is that there was terrible opposition to the house; it was the same opposition that confronted Christ. Who could stand it? Only those who could walk on the water. You

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must be fitted to face the world power and overcome it. God set up here at the beginning a perfect system; He gave it over to man in responsibility, and in his hands it has become a complete wreck. It is really a question of what you are. A living stone is one who comes to Christ; he really overcomes all the world power. Who would be able to walk on the water? A babe could not; it takes a strong man to do it. It is coming to Christ as the rejected One; coming to Him against all the power of the world, as the One disallowed of men, it involves the giving up of all that you are as a man in the flesh. It takes a strong man, and a man of courage, to walk on the waters. Peter began to sink. It is a wonderful thing to be able to walk and get to Christ. From the divine side every man indwelt of the Spirit is in the house. A living stone is one who surmounts the world power; he is completely identified with Christ in the world that rejected Him. Only one who had overcome the world could occupy such a position.

Ques. Then you would not say that every believer is a stone in the house

The state of things at the present time is very extraordinary. These are certainly difficult days. We should bear in mind that if the Scriptures present Christ as a Builder, they must present Him as building what is perfect. We must go back to the beginning to see what things meant then. Every single stone in Acts 2 was living -- they had all overcome the world.

It is a question here of what you apprehend. You have faith in the God who raised Christ from the dead, who raised Him by His power. Faith is the light you have. The working of God raised Christ from the dead, and He will bring everything into life -- you and me and all. It is a question of the working of God; if He has raised Christ He can raise you and me. Faith is the understanding you have of what

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God will effect; it is the evidence of things not seen. I am delighted with the thought of God; I know what He can do; He can raise me, and you, and Israel, and all; and He will do it. Faith is that by which we rest in the knowledge of what God can do.

The gospel involves a new system. It involves the complete setting aside of this system. No intelligent Christian could be satisfied with the system that exists today. The apprehension of God's mind causes a man to walk aside from the world. Circumcision follows justification, man after the flesh and his system have to go. What good is it to talk of being justified if we are satisfied with the world? This world has no place with the enlightened Christian; it is not suitable to him. You recognise that in righteousness God will set it aside. I think we should wake up to the introduction of a new system. That is what the gospel means. It is not difficult to see that the new system involves the introduction of the kingdom, the city and the house. These three things arc necessary if you are to have deliverance here. Everyone of them had an answer in the saints at the beginning. When the Holy Spirit came down there was protection in the saints for men, and there was rule, and a sphere of affection.

The "country" is still another idea, and would take in the sphere to which the testimony of God applied. The bride is still another thought. It brings in the thought of what the church is to Christ personally, and not so much as those who are used of Him. You can take account of the saints as those whom the Lord can use for blessing to humanity, and you can take account of them as loved of Him, and reciprocating His affection. Most of us begin small and we do not expect much. We find much more than we expect. Nathaniel found the Son of God and the King of Israel; he had not looked for much. It would be a great thing if the Lord would

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stir us up to go in for these things. That is His present effort.

The house cannot be found at all now; but you can find an answer to it if the saints are close together. God is love, and to find the house you must have love. The great practical value in putting it forth today is, that though you cannot find it, you endeavour to walk in the light of it. You get back to the beginning and walk in the light of what was set up then. If there are a few believers in New York who love the Lord, and walk in the light of the Lord, what a triumph that is for God! A poor lonely Christian coining up from the West Indies or anywhere else can find warmth there.

If you want the Lord to use you let Him put you in your place in the building. That is how He can use you. In any of the cities at the beginning you could find the believers going on in love; you could find a home there. If the Holy Spirit is ungrieved in us, you do find some characteristics of the house. We should be concerned to make it apparent that there is good among us. The characteristics of the house are a question of quality. God is love, and you would expect in His house some manifestation of His nature. Only in that connection can you have gospel work. We should try to get close together; we should be men enough to surrender our own rights and ambitions; we should see that God has a new system. Would that God would arouse us and bring us into line with Himself.

It would be difficult to find anyone now who has not heard of Christ. It is difficult to know how to enlighten those around; we must be cast on the Lord about it. It is best to work away on those around within our reach. The Lord, I believe, has much people in New York, but we are riot equal to it. We are not capable of much, but if a few are going on in love, there is good there, and good is of God.

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Pages 73 to 107 "Summary of Addresses and Readings, Woodstock, Ontario, November, 1904".

CHRIST AS TURNING POINT AND MODEL

Matthew 11.

The point of interest in this chapter is that in it is presented the turning point in the Lord's service in the flesh; and I think what we ought to discover in it is the abandonment of one system of things and the introduction of another. I have no doubt if you take up your own experience you will find what corresponds to this. There has been a gradual abandonment of that to which you stood related as in the flesh, and an introduction into another system of which Christ is the centre.

I should like to make clear the position taken by the Lord as seen in this chapter. Becoming Man He stood related to all that had existed in this world. There was Judaism and also the Roman empire. He recognised both. He came into a system of things with which man in the flesh was occupied. He was not disappointed with what He found, for He knew all about it beforehand, but He came into the system established here, and was thus a test to it. The Lord took up what He found in Israel, and if possible would have used it, but He could not make any use of it. Had He intended to act according to the principles of man in the flesh He could have used it. Judaism could be used on this line, but the Lord did not intend to work on this line, hence Judaism as a system was utterly useless to him; and for the same reason He could make no use of the empire. If He had had it in mind to exalt Himself as a man in the flesh the empire could have been used; it was calculated to be most effectual in that respect, but His thought was otherwise -- it was to relieve men. What, therefore, could He do with all the legions of

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the empire? He could make no use of them whatever in the work He had undertaken; all combined, they could not deliver one man from the thraldom of Satan. The empire was a wild beast. This was what the Gentile powers resembled. The Roman empire served to enthral man, and so the Lord could not use it; but then He could not be used in it. He was a meek and lowly Man and Rome was not built up by such. He could not fit in anywhere. He could not take command of an army, or become governor of a province, and I do not think He could even have been a successful merchant. Further, He could not fit in at Jerusalem. He could not fill any place in connection with the system established there. In a word, He could make no use of the world, and the world could make no use of Him. Nothing seemed to have been effected by His mission, and, judging by external appearances, He might as well have returned to that place whence He had come. Even John is in doubt: his message to the Lord implied fear that all was a failure. Such is the outward aspect of affairs in this chapter. As to John, if we have difficulties about him here we must remember that he was not a Christian. You must take into account who John was: he did not live in the age of sonship and the presence of the Holy Ghost; he belonged to the old order of things, which was now disappearing. The difference between his position and that of Paul and Silas at Philippi is very great. John did not have any song to sing in prison: redemption was not yet accomplished.

I want you to see the magnitude of the Lord's position as seen at the end of this chapter. He calls attention to Himself. What I think we all require is to have our hearts directed to the Lord. People are much interested in things here; you can find an account of them in the newspapers; but you will find nothing there of what the Lord Jesus Christ is doing at the present time. Here He calls attention

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to Himself in the presence of apparent defeat. He could not use the empire, so the Lord proposes to set up a kingdom of His own; He would have a kingdom greater than Rome. In Matthew 13 we get the kingdom. It is an eternal kingdom; defiling things are removed, but it goes on (see verses 41 - 43).

You have heard about great men. Here is one. As far as the eye can see He is a solitary man without supporters or means, and rejected everywhere, yet He has ability to establish a kingdom, as we have seen, greater than the Roman empire; and not only a kingdom, but also a city; for the assembly in chapter 16 may be said to answer to a city. The Lord's position here is magnificent. Chapter 12 enlarges upon it; His greatness is there set forth.

He says, "Come unto me". He had no place, could fit in nowhere, but He can give you rest. He can also protect you. Everywhere the eye can turn enemies abound. Nobody can lie down in safety in a district infested with robbers; but the Lord insures protection. He has brought in the kingdom for this. And then, as we have seen, He has also a city. He had nothing to do with Chorazin or Capernaum. He could find no post of honour in either, but He will have, as it were, a city of His own. You will find perfect order there. In it also you will find every comfort, for His home is there. What I wish to impress upon you is that the Lord has brought these wonderful things in for your good -- for your deliverance, protection, comfort and satisfaction -- and that His care for you is thus demonstrated; and in His ability to establish them His greatness is seen. And I would ask, What do you know about all this in a practical way? Perhaps you can say, "I have forgiveness of sins", but have you begun to learn from Christ yet? The Lord says, "Learn from me". What kind of a man was He? He was meek and

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lowly. If you learn from Him you imbibe His character. Suppose Caesar had invited you to learn from him, suppose you had made him your model, what would be the result? You would have become like a wild beast, trampling man under foot to satisfy greed and ambition. The Lord Jesus Christ is meek and lowly in heart, hence in learning from Him these things mark you. There is no use telling me you have come to Him if you are not meek and lowly in heart. Many of us are theorists -- we have not had to do with Christ personally. The thing to do is to endeavour to seize the position occupied by the Lord down here in the presence of the Father and learn from Him. In this way you become like Him, and find rest in your soul. He is not beyond our reach. It is quite possible to come into contact with Him. He makes people like Himself. To produce a company of people like Himself down here was what the Lord had before Him, "Come unto me". This was written for believers, that they might know how to come into touch with Christ, and become like Him. The meek and lowly man is great.

What comes out after chapter 12 in this gospel is magnificent. He talks about great men, Jonah and Solomon, but a greater was there. What would He do? He would bring in a kingdom; He would also build His assembly, and the gates of hell should not prevail against it. He did not find anything, but He was going to produce something: He began to sow. All this refers to His power.

We ought to be completely independent of this world. What need you and I fear? If you take care to consider your history you will find that He has interfered in your behalf. He has set up a kingdom, a city and a house to live in, and all this in the interest of man. The King of England need not

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come to Canada to enforce his rights or protect his subjects: he has his forces here; so the Lord Jesus Christ has His forces here.

The world will be filled by what the Lord Jesus Christ can do, and it is wisdom on your part to place yourself entirely in His hands. May the Lord turn your hearts to find your all in Himself.

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THE KINGDOM OF GOD

Reading on Romans 4:23, 25 and Romans 5:1, 11.

I suppose if we look at the kingdom as in Romans it is the kingdom of God. Do you think it is the way in which God is here: He has a footing here?

I suppose it is that on the part of God which insures things. In this epistle it is presented as related to men. What is needed really is establishment in the truth of the kingdom, that is, righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. All that comes out in the fifth chapter is consequent on what the last verses of the fourth present. It is a question of what is established in Jesus our Lord as risen from among the dead.

This clothes the resurrection of the Lord with great significance; while the Lord is not actually here yet He has brought to pass all that is of God, and maintains it here through the power of the Holy Ghost. God is here to stay -- a wonderful pledge of what is soon to be displayed.

There is a very important principle in the 1 Samuel 30. The spoil was to be divided among those who remained behind with the stuff as well as those who actually went into the conflict: that is, it did not require that one should enter into the battle in order that he should reap the benefit of victory. David established the decree in Israel. I think it may be applied to the Lord. He entered into the conflict alone, while we partake of the spoil. In resurrection all is recovered. This is the platform from which the gospel is presented. It is immense. The Lord has a free hand, and He distributed, as it were, the spoil of victory. Romans 5 gives an account of the spoil. The Lord could not find anything with which to help man, so He would establish that which should be effective to this end; that is, the kingdom, and its bearing is universal.

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In the kingdom you find light; that by which you are guided, and power. It is effective for the deliverance of man from the power of evil, and for his preservation and guidance while still in the presence of evil. In its present form it is adapted for everyday life. We have to do with what is adverse, and in virtue of the existence of the kingdom we are made superior to it. The experience recorded here is of a man moving about in triumphant superiority to every hostile power. The tables are completely turned: what he would have recoiled from before now becomes his boast -- tribulation.

There is no possibility of real progress unless we are clear regarding the kingdom. Outwardly circumstances are not changed. If in the good of the kingdom you must have a sense that you are guarded as identified with divine things, and participating in them. That is really the starting point. John the Baptist announced the coming of what man needed -- the kingdom. The thought has been, getting forgiveness and justification for heaven, but the gospel is the announcement of the kingdom.

The Lord could not use what He found here, hence He would bring in something new; what should be effective. I think the great want all along had been, 'The man that is able'. This, I think, is the idea of a king. In the gospel of Matthew this Man appears. In chapter 11 the Lord calls attention to Himself and in chapter 12 His greatness comes out. One great proof of His greatness is that He can establish a kingdom great enough to deliver men from all adverse power; and not only this, His kingdom will break to pieces and supplant every other kingdom. This involved His going into the lower parts of the earth, and His ascension far above all heavens. He has broken the power of evil in its own domain, and now as on high He distributes the fruit of victory to men. There is nothing else to succeed the kingdom;

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it goes on, but all offending things will be taken out of it. The kingdom is not what it was at the beginning; it has become encumbered with lawless and offending elements; hence we do not reap such advantages from it now as the early Christians did. Things have become so paralysed and disjointed that we are greatly hampered in endeavouring to enter into the blessings of the kingdom. Paul could preach the kingdom with the utmost liberty and confidence, because there was a power behind him that could not be denied. The Spirit was not then grieved and hindered by the incubus of lawlessness and corruption that weighs down the kingdom now. It is not an easy matter to make evident to men that the kingdom really exists down here, and this fact should have a humbling effect on all who seek to preach it. The way we get the good of the kingdom now is by coming into contact with those who are walking in the Spirit. You must be near Christians to get the benefit of the kingdom. The Lord will do the best He can for us, and I am sure we shall lack nothing even in a day like the present, if we are cast upon Him, but it must be evident that He is greatly hampered by the existing condition of things. There can be no change in the Lord personally, and in spite of the condition of things He can take care of us, so that no matter how terrifying the enemy may be we need have no fear. We cannot change the general condition of things. The Lord alone can do this. In endeavouring to walk together in the Spirit we enter more or less into the good of the kingdom, and our hope is that the Lord will soon remove the "tares". Our point is to get the good of all we can at the present time. It is a mistake to assume that we can get the benefit of the kingdom as at the beginning.

If our state is not right we shall not be maintained. I think the state at Philadelphia (Revelation 3) indicates

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that they had gone on in the truth. I think Romans is the great kingdom epistle in its application to men. You get the moral foundation laid. The time was when we all moved with the corrupted condition, but we moved out of it. Men adopt worldly methods in connection with the preaching of the gospel, and act as if no change had come to pass in the kingdom. A heathen would be justified in saying to Christians, 'We are just as good as you'. The Lord will do the best He can at all times. What we are enjoying here this morning is a sample of what the Lord can do for us. If I find a few saints anywhere walking in the truth, I thank God. They are there for my good, and for the good of others. The Lord has placed them there. But as regards the kingdom publicly it has long since ceased to be the expression of the power of God. When the Babylonians were battering down the walls of Jerusalem what testimony was there to the illustrious power of Jehovah there; the power that delivered them from Egypt, and brought them into Canaan? This illustrates the present condition of that in which the kingdom was established; and yet it is assumed that the gospel can be carried to the heathen as in apostolic days The bearing of the state of things is this: it tends to humble us; but we look for the Lord who will shake the earth and the heavens. But while we are humbled, we are drawn to the Lord. He is not changed, and the Spirit is here.

It is remarkable how little we go on with what the Lord places within our reach -- I mean the saints living near to us. We should value intercourse and nearness to the Lord's people. They are, so to say, the Lord's provision for us. The Lord is available for us: you could not have things brought nearer to you. It is very encouraging to think of what the Lord can do for us in this way. It is involved in the work of the Good Samaritan: the inn to which He took the man

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who had fallen. The inn is among the Lord's people. Everything is through our Lord Jesus Christ. If you get peace it is through our Lord Jesus Christ. Everything is through Him.

If we are going on together it must necessarily affect us to see the corrupt state of things. The coming in of the Spirit in the saints established the kingdom, and we should make much of the saints. You find some leave the saints, but it is the height of folly: they are leaving the source of supply, and those who do it never go on in divine things.

You hear the expression "Assembly" here and there, but the Lord never intended to restore any church position. It would be well if the Lord's people could see this. And the Lord never intends that we should go on together if there is no confidence, but the Lord has revived the truth so that we can walk in the light of the assembly and in fellowship with one another. When Mr. Darby was about to pass away a brother said to him, "We shall have the Lord left". To this Mr. Darby replied, "And the saints too". When we find a few saints walking in the truth we find a home; it is the Lord's provision for us. The measure in which we turn to the Lord, is the measure of our relation to the saints.

To acknowledge the Lord is to stand in relation to His universal claim. You think not only of the church, but all things to which Christ stands related. It is an immense thing to have the understanding that the foundation of God stands. It is a question of what the Lord is capable of. If there is failure in the church the Lord can effect all the will of God.

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THE BLESSING OF ABRAHAM

Reading on GALATIANS 3

In chapters 1 and 2 the apostle establishes his complete independence of men and Jerusalem. The Lord had appeared to him outside of Jewish territory, and the revelation made to him was of the Son of God. This involved a new system of things, with another centre than Jerusalem altogether. Jerusalem had a very great prestige particularly as the seat of the twelve apostles, and the tendency was to make it a centre in connection with Christianity. The metropolitan idea set in early: when it is assumed that any given place is a centre God goes out of His way, as it were, to show that He does not so regard it. The revelation to Paul near Damascus, and the movement at Antioch, furnish an illustration of this; and moral principles do not change. This epistle was written 1800 years ago, but there are conditions to which it has direct application today. The Lord did not intend to make Antioch a centre, but He intended to show He could move elsewhere. Antioch was not formed by apostolic means. It was the consequence of the scattering of the saints from Jerusalem. The testimony moved westward. Judea and Asia Minor have long since given up Christianity.

We suffer from metropolitanism. The Lord will not tolerate any pretension to set up any place as a centre.

What do you think the remedy is to metropolitanism?

The true metropolis -- "Jerusalem above". There had been a great work of God at Jerusalem, but there is nothing there now. God is now working in relation to Jerusalem above. I should have been more interested in Antioch than Jerusalem at the time Paul

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and Barnabas were sent out. If it is a question of divine principles there can be no toleration of half measures: Paul did not consult men; he got his light from the Lord direct, and his preaching connected souls with that which is above. The influence from Jerusalem tended to lead men into bondage, hence in contending with Peter, the apostle Paul was standing for the liberties of Christians. We may thank God for the bold stand made by Paul at that time.

Paul recognised the apostles and valued them: he went up to Jerusalem to make acquaintance with Peter: he did not go up to learn from Peter. Later he went up by revelation to put before them what he taught. At Antioch he withstood Peter to the face -- there was no compromise. We think a great deal of Paul, but it must be borne in mind that Peter was more prominent than Paul at the beginning.

People who are ecclesiastical always deal in goods from Jerusalem. But the tent of testimony had, so to speak, moved out of Jerusalem. Paul withstood Peter to the face, for he was to be blamed. When contending for the truth, and the liberties of the Lord's people, age and prestige must not play any part. Paul saw what was at issue, and it was most serious. It matters little whether it be Jerusalem or Rome, the principle is the same. It is the assumption of priority in connection with divine things, and the effect of it is to lead souls into bondage. The present condition of Christianity is very largely the fruit of it. Everything which we see around us has originated in Rome, where this baneful principle has had its full development. The antidote to all is Jerusalem above.

The prominent thought in chapter 3 is the blessing of Abraham. I do not think the chapter explains the blessing of Abraham exactly; I think we have to

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go elsewhere for this. The point is that it had arrived at the Gentiles in a way entirely independent of law, that is, in Christ, as having already borne the curse of the law. But then the blessing must have taken a tangible form; in the future it will undoubtedly involve eternal life; at the present time it lies in the Spirit, and can be found only among the saints.

The church stands in relation to all that has been in the past, even the thought of a people down here. God intended to have a people on the earth from among the Gentiles, and this has come to pass in the church. The gospel refers much more to what is down here than to what is in heaven. It is true that Christ is the theme, but it is Christ according to what He can do for men, and this involves what has been established down here. You could not have the gospel without the Holy Ghost down here; His presence down here involves the kingdom and the house of God. In virtue of the establishment of these in this world, salvation and the blessing of Abraham are brought close to men. It is remarkable that the first gospel address took the form of an explanation of what was down here, what was actually before the eye of man. I refer to Acts 2. Peter explains the this which had attracted the attention of the multitude. No one can read the early chapters of the Acts and not see that relief and blessing were brought close to men in the presence of the Holy Ghost among the saints; and the great theme of the apostles was that these wonderful things had come to pass through the humble Nazarene, whom the Jews had crucified, but whom God had raised up and exalted to His right hand. The existence of a great power for good down here, acting in the name of Jesus was the great point, and anything less would not have been suitable or effectual. The king might express the very best intentions in regard to Canada, but in case of an invasion his proof of it

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would be to send an army. The blessing of Abraham had arrived at the nations; they did not have to go for it,

How would that be applied?

God's intervention is in the saints -- the Spirit is here in the saints. God proposes to bless the world through the church. It was a wonderful conception that a few fishermen should be taken up, and through this means light and blessing should be diffused wherever man was. Humanity was pretty well represented at Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost, and all heard about the wonderful things of God. If the bright days recorded in the Acts of the apostles have passed away through the failure of the saints, we should all be humbled about it, and we should seek to find out from the Lord how we are to serve under the present terribly altered circumstances. You could not well locate the vital thing now at all, hence it must be with great shamefacedness and humility that the true servant would seek to preach the gospel at the present time. Prior to the coming of the Holy Ghost, God did not have a house here properly. "The Most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands". Acts 7:48. But on the day of Pentecost the Spirit came to the disciples, and in this way the house was established. When the Lord was here in the flesh He had no house to which to invite men; but He would have a house, and hence He built one. The house He built was great enough to accommodate humanity. There the feast was spread, and the invitation sent out in every direction. God had all men in view for blessing.

Before the Lord left the scene He provided material for the house -- Acts 2. The material was prepared by the Lord: it was of His own kind -- a company of people who had learned from Him. They were meek and lowly. The Spirit is in the saints, and no one can talk about walking in the Spirit who disregards

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the saints. In any great man's house you will find every equipment needful for the comfort of guests, and I think this must apply to God's house. We may be sure that there was nothing lacking there for the comfort of man, as it was originally established. I think the prodigal had an idea of this. He said there was bread enough and to spare there. I fancy he had more light than many Christians at the present time. But things have altered dreadfully. It would be difficult to find one room, so to speak, in order. Still, even the second epistle to Timothy supposes that clean vessels would be needed. God has still something to administer, and hence the clean vessels can be used. Living water is still there, thank God! Our concern should be to bring people into touch with warmth and light but we suffer from not knowing what is in the house. All that is of God down here is there, but it is exceedingly difficult to get the good of it. I think the blessing of Abraham lies in God's house; in this way, it has arrived at the nations practically. The Father's house conveys more the thought of privilege. The house of God is limited to the saints at the present time. Christ is Son over it. According to the first epistle to Timothy the house and the assembly are identical.

We are connected with Jerusalem above, which is our mother. The thought in Jerusalem above is freedom; it is, I think, sonship, as seen in Christ, Jerusalem above is, so to say, the true wife; she will never be cast out of the house. I think divorce is wrong morally; as a matter of fact Jerusalem above remains in the house forever. A wife who dwells in the affections of her husband is in perfect liberty in his house; if she has the least fear of ever being divorced, liberty would not exist; but as living in her husband's affections she adorns his house, and he is known through her. In the future the heavenly city will adorn the universe, and God will be known

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through it. "I am crucified with Christ". Galatians 2:20. You could hardly connect that man with anything here. The Spirit answers to it, He links you with Jerusalem above. The Spirit is the link between the blessing of Abraham and Christ Jesus, and that touches sonship, and all that heavenly system of things in Christ Jesus. God's ways are very simple. The apostle in going back to Genesis 12 and Genesis 22 shows that all that came in by law could not affect the purpose of God. The promise to Abraham took the form of a covenant, which could not be annulled or added to by after circumstances. He calls attention to the fact that two parties were connected with the giving of the law, but the promise to Abraham was on the part of God alone, and its fulfilment depended entirely on Him -- hence it was sure. It was an unconditional promise on the part of God, and there was no possibility of breakdown in its fulfilment. After the flood Satan succeeded in capturing man, and he had also taken possession of the earth. Man was in idolatry, and the Amorite was in the land of Canaan. It was a dark period, but light breaks in, in God's assertion of His rights. He asserted His right to man in going into Mesopotamia and calling Abram, and He asserted His right to the earth in giving Canaan to Abraham for a possession. If God had a right to Abraham He had a right to all men, and if He had a right to Canaan He had a right to all the earth.

See how the Lord Jesus Christ must feel -- men dragging things down to Judaism -- it misrepresents Him so. He would bring blessing to the Gentiles through Christians set free -- not through bondmen. The apostle's conduct among the Galatians was in the dignity of a son. He did not act like a son of Hagar -- a miserable devotee of Judaism and Jerusalem. The blessing of Abraham arrived at the nations in Christ, but practically through the ministry

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of the apostle, who was in all the liberty and dignity of sonship This, I think, was suitable on the part of God. If a king wishes to confer honour, or if some great affair requires an ambassador, he will send his son, or some man of dignity, not a slave.

Would you say what the testimony is?

All that God intends to set forth. I like to be in sympathy with the Lord as to what is in His mind. Everything has failed in man's hand, but God will effect His purpose. I think this is what is meant by "The foundation of God stands". 2 Timothy 2:19. Your only hope is Christ. All else has failed.

After Thyatira the Lord does not say He holds the seven stars; it simply says He has them, Revelation 3. He is not any longer supporting the public thing. Properly speaking church testimony is over; after Thyatira the only hope lies in the coming of the Lord. Our position is very extraordinary, and it requires constant exercise and looking to the Lord, so as to act with intelligence, but I am sure it is not right to assume to be anything public. We meet in garrets and cellars, and make the most of the situation, while waiting for the Lord. We should feel disorders among those with whom we are immediately connected, but the great public scandal is Jezebel: one does not hear much sorrow expressed in regard of her -- but we may be sure the Lord feels it, and He would value our sympathy. We never have a proper sense of the ruin, only as we see what was at the beginning -- a few simple people who loved the Lord.

When Christ went into the temple He said it was a den of thieves -- no place for a godly Jew. It ought to be a place for all nations -- a house of prayer.

One feels how little we sympathise with the Lord. That terrible woman occupying the prominent position, as it were. Who sympathises with Him in that?

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SONSHIP

Reading on Galatians 4

In connecting Christians from among the Gentiles with Abraham, the apostle places our position on the broad platform of faith, and hence on the righteousness of God. Abraham was father of all believers, and had this place before circumcision and law came in at all. God's subsequent dealings were on narrower ground, that of law; and the object in this is explained in this epistle. The effect of law was to bring in bondage; hence, in order to extricate those who were under it, the Lord came under law. He bore its curse, and now He has a free hand to bring in the blessing of Abraham. It is called the blessing of Abraham, but really it has come in through Abraham's seed that is, it has taken form in Christ risen from the dead. It is an immense thing to apprehend the liberty in which Christ is as risen from among the dead. In love He underwent the consequences of human guilt, whether under the law or otherwise, and now He is the Vessel through which the blessing of Abraham is effectuated; and this has all the families of the earth in view. In a coming day He will usher the nations into the kingdom, and eternal life. Who could do this but the One who had annulled death and brought to light life and incorruptibility?

In taking up Abraham God really meant to assert His rights, but what came out was that the assertion of God's rights meant blessing. "In thee shall all families of the earth he blessed" Genesis 12:3; so that it is to man's infinite advantage to admit the righteousness of God. The great point in the chapter before us is sonship. Sonship in this epistle refers more to time than to state; it depends on the age in which people live. We are entitled to it because of the time in

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which we live. The point the apostle makes is that the "period fixed of the Father" Galatians 4:2 has arrived. No matter how godly a man might have been under the law he could not have been a son: he was not out of the nursery: he was under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the Father. The apostle uses a figure, and one which would be universally understood: in most countries there is a fixed period when people are said to have attained their majority. But in verses 4 and 5 we get the explanation "When the fulness of time was come God sent forth his Son, come of a woman, come under law, that he might redeem those under law that we might receive sonship". The time of sonship arrived historically when Christ arose from the dead: from that time forward God deals with His people on the ground of sonship, not any longer as minors. But there is not only the title of sonship, but that by which alone it could be supported -- the Spirit of sonship: "because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father". Galatians 4:6. God will never again revert to the nursery. The state of things under the law meant slavery, and God has not pleasure in slaves. He takes pleasure in sons. The Son has set us free, and He abides in the house for ever, hence our place is there also. Christendom has gone back to the nursery; the spirit of the slave marks things there pretty much. This was what the apostle strove to avert, and the only escape from it is Jerusalem above. Jerusalem above is our mother, and she is free: neither she, nor her children have any fear of being cast out of the house. The apostle uses strong language: it was senseless to return to slavery after they had been set free. Think of people wishing to return to the scullery after being allowed the privileges of the drawing room! Sonship means that we have come to full age, and hence are capable of entering into the thoughts and counsels of

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the head of the house. We no longer enter by the back door, so to speak: we have all the privileges of the house: we enter by the front door. This is all brought out for the recovery of these saints.

Sonship is not limited to the church; it refers to Israel as well, and is applied even to others. One feels how few are in the liberty of it, and how great the tendency to give it up. You get an illustration of this in the second chapter. Peter was affected: one of the greatest men was returning to bondage. Hagar stood for Mount Sinai in Arabia, a desert country. You always find it in a desert. There is no pasture. And this answers pretty much to what is called Christendom. Christendom eventuates in Babylon, which is seen in a desert, Revelation 17:3. We are really in Christendom, and are ever in danger of being characterised by it. If we depart from the Head we return to bondage.

Paul came under Jerusalem influence when he shaved his head. I know men that are under Jerusalem influence now. The blessing of Abraham and sonship constitute the only security for us. The introduction of Jerusalem above is the only antidote. I think it is always brought in as a means of recovery. Things all around you are in bondage: you have to turn to what is above. I think the understanding of Jerusalem above lies in the apprehension of the liberty in which Christ is as a Son with God. In the Revelation the new Jerusalem is seen "coming down from God out of heaven". Revelation 21:2. It is composed of those who are in all the liberty and dignity of sonship. Think of the influence it must exercise on all below.

Abraham had a perfect right to dismiss Hagar at any time: she was a servant, but, morally, he could not cast off Sarah. She was not a servant: she was a wife, free as enjoying her husband's affections, and thus having all the liberties of his house. Sarah is the free woman, and she represents our mother.

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Jerusalem on earth was simply Hagar: it was in the position of a slave, and hence God had a right to set it aside. Christendom having taken up this same position, God will set it aside also, and He will be perfectly righteous in doing so. "The servant abideth not in the house for ever but the son abideth ever". John 8:35.

The point with the apostle was to liberate the Galatians. He says, "be as I am, for I am as ye are". Galatians 4:12. I think Paul was in the enjoyment of sonship, but his title to it was no greater than that of the Galatians. I could go to any believer and say to him that the time of sonship has arrived, but I should like to say, "be as I am".

What is the idea of children?

Derivation. Children conveys parentage and character. Sonship involves position; heirship and sonship go together. Children are also heirs. If you enter into possession of a vast estate at the age of twenty-one it is likely to produce very great happiness. We must not endeavour to arrive at sonship through state; it is really the other way about. In a sense we arrive at the state in which we can serve and please God through sonship. State lies in the Spirit of sonship.

There are seven distinct expressions as to time in verses 1 to 9, so far as I can make out. We have been occupied too much with state: it is always bondage to endeavour to work up to things: I think things always come down. State, according to God, is brought about in us by knowledge; the knowledge of what comes down. This is seen in Romans 8. Liberty for the creation is connected with what comes down; the revelation of the sons of God. The coming down of the heavenly city involves liberty for all below. Sonship rightly understood has a powerful effect on us down here, but properly it is

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outside all the conditions of life in flesh. Knowing it we walk in suitable dignity, in different attire; different deportment. It is a great point to come to, and it is God's pleasure to give it to us. We are sons as much as ever we can be from the divine side; and access to God is as real as it can be; "through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father". Ephesians 2:18. It is a secret to ourselves at the present time. We can cry, "Abba, Father". The manifestation of our position with God is still future.

The time has arrived for sonship -- marvellous moment! We have come to everything that is to be displayed in the future. God has already begun in Christ, and there is no other beginning; hence so far as our relationship to God is concerned there can be no change or improvement. Sonship properly belongs to the age to come, and in Romans 8 it is identified with the redemption of the body, but the relationship is as real now as it will be then; indeed, without it there could be no service of God at the present time at all. God is leading many sons to glory. He would hardly lead bondmen to glory. It is most serious to connect sonship with man in the flesh.

I think the point is that God is leading many sons to glory. They are sons before they get to glory. We are not sons as men in the flesh. The Captain of our salvation is made perfect through suffering. It is in resurrection that He is our Captain, and we are of His order. The passage in Hebrews which treats of this proceeds to say that "He that sanctifieth, and they who are sanctified are all of one, for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren". Hebrews 2:11. When the Lord arose from the dead the fulness of the time had arrived. Every Christian is a son.

The apostle does not set before the Galatians the

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gospel, but the heavenly city and sonship. The design of God was that He should be represented in sons down here. The church was set up in the liberty and blessedness of sonship. I think it is only as sons that we are fitted to represent God in this world. You are constituted a benefactor; that is what we shall be in the future. It is impossible for a legal man to rightly represent God.

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THE ASSEMBLY IN THE WILDERNESS AND IN CANAAN

READING ON John 20:1 - 23

I THINK we should distinguish between the assembly viewed as in the wilderness, and as related to the land of Canaan. The first epistle to the Corinthians presents the assembly as connected with the wilderness; other epistles view it in the land. Corinthians conveys the thought of order; Colossians and Ephesians, privilege arid blessing; and these latter present the idea of the land of promise. The saints at Corinth were God's assembly: God was to be known there by the order seen among them. It is the public aspect of the assembly. A simple person coming in would recognise that God was there by the divine order displayed (chapter 14).

Stephen speaks of the assembly in the wilderness, Acts 7; this was God's house, over which Moses was a servant, Hebrews 3. The point that Moses makes is that he and the people could only be distinguished from all other people on the face of the earth by Jehovah's presence among them, Exodus 33:16 (New Trans.).

The wilderness is the sphere of responsibility, as we see in 1 Corinthians 10. God had brought the people of Israel to Himself, and then He proposed that they should build a tabernacle that He might dwell among them. In the land we dwell with Him, but in the wilderness He dwells with us and the point in the latter is, I think, the order in which God is known. That is what marks the first part of the book of Numbers. Each Israelite is taken account of; numbered, in order that he might find his place in relation to the tabernacle of witness. Eligibility for military service was the requirement, and every eligible person was numbered. The age mentioned

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refers to manhood, and probably what corresponds at the present time is the possession of the Holy Ghost. Normally the possession of the Holy Ghost constitutes manhood. On receiving the Spirit we graduate from occupation with toys, childish things, and go in for what belongs to manhood. Of course I speak of things as seen normally, as in Acts 2, for instance. The state of the Corinthians was abnormal; hence the apostle's admonition, "be not children in your minds, but in malice be babes; but in minds be grown men", 1 Corinthians 14:20. Only as grown men could they take their place, so to say, in relation to the tabernacle. God takes account of every Christian, in order to put him in his place in relation to the testimony down here. This is what the first numbering of the people meant. The second numbering in Numbers meant that each Israelite was taken account of so as to find his place in God's land.

The brazen serpent and the springing well form the turning point. From Numbers 21 onward it is state that is in question. Entrance into Canaan depends on the state formed by the Holy Spirit. It is the elect Israel that is taken account of to inherit; the Israel of responsibility had wholly disappeared: "among these there was not a man numbered by Moses and Aaron the priest, who numbered the children of Israel in the wilderness of Sinai", Numbers 26:64.

In Corinth an unbeliever, if he came in, was to find God among the Christians. If there was that which misrepresented God there was the necessity to insist on self-judgment and the restoration of order. Hence the apostle felt under the necessity of writing his first letter. The introduction of the Lord's table, and the Lord's supper, was to the end that they might be regulated -- put in order. The Lord's supper brings us together, and this is in the wilderness. Entrance into Canaan depends entirely on state.

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There is no distinction of sex on the other side of death: in the wilderness there is; women were to be silent in the assembly.

God in grace has given us a place in connection with the tabernacle of witness, and you cannot go on with anything inconsistent with it. The ark of the covenant leads you into the land of promise: the ark was more connected with the land, the tabernacle with the wilderness. The public testimony was to be maintained in the house. A company of men and women constituted the house, and they were to be marked by divine order. Everything inconsistent with the order and holiness of God's house was to be repudiated. God was not well pleased with most of them. In 1 Corinthians 10, He came in to correct them.

In our day the second epistle to Timothy comes in; you must pursue righteousness, faith, love, and peace, etc. If you pursue righteousness you must allow God's rights.

God would not limit Himself to those who were already recovered. He would affect others, but He would do this through those who were in accord with Himself. Hence the servant must be separate from vessels to dishonour. He is then to be used of the Master, to serve to distribute the bounty of the Lord. The great point is to be a vessel through which the water of life may be dealt out. The water of life is a very great thought. In speaking to the woman of Samaria (John 4) the Lord did not have a well out of which to give water to men; for the moment He was dependent on Jacob's well, but He would have, as it were, a well of His own, where men might drink and live for ever.

What do you mean by the term "well"?

The assembly. I like to think of the Lord having a system of His own; a house of His own; and, so to say, a well of His own. All these things were to

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be found in the assembly at the beginning. The living water is the Holy Spirit as adaptable to the need of the human heart. It is still here, and will go on to the end. The believer was to be the source of supply. Rivers of living water were to flow out -- rivers. It was no small conception.

John 20 is the assembly in relation to the land it is privilege. The way into privilege is indicated by Mary. She followed the Lord through Jordan. You see a woman whose heart is captivated. It is no question here of public order; it is the subjective state formed by the Spirit, in virtue of which alone Canaan is reached. Here, however, what is seen is more pattern; although Mary's affection was genuine. Mary represents those who value association with Christ. I do not think association is known until it is desired. When you value it (affection for Christ values it), it is an immense thing to find that it is available. The Lord never indicated that the disciples were to go up to Him during His absence. He said He was coming to them. He would not leave them orphans; He would come to them. We should all be exercised to find out what this means. I think when the Lord used the expression "My assembly" He had in His mind a company of people who had affection for Him; who had given up the world, and were hated by it. What a pleasure to Him to come to such company!

The assembly viewed in connection with the land is not a public thing at all. In this chapter the disciples are in a secluded, quiet spot, and He appears in the midst.

The great objective point with us is to be in association with Christ, and this is private: the world was not to see Him. It depends entirely upon love: if you do not love you do not know it. "If any man love me", you must have love to understand it. The Lord does not explain anything to the intellect,

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for intelligence in divine things depends on love. We come together to break bread, and if there is heart for it, I think the Lord would support us into Canaan.

I do not know that Canaan is much understood now. It is, I think, the sphere of privilege and blessing which God has purposed for His people. It has undoubtedly a future bearing, and in this respect, it seems to me, it must refer to the entire sphere of blessing which God has purposed for man. In the coming age the wilderness will have disappeared, and Jordan will not exist: death will be swallowed up in victory, and every family will be blessed on the principle of resurrection. All will stand related to Christ on that footing. At the present time it is the privilege of the assembly, and that on the ground that we are risen with Christ. The chapter before us corresponds with this, and I think the apostle had it before him in writing to the Colossians. But taking possession of Canaan by the saints involves the overthrow of the world-system of Satan, which has its centre in the heavenlies. The church is to succeed Satan there (our testimony involves this), and consequently we come into conflict. The Ephesian saints were not actually in the heavenlies, but the apostle's prayer in chapter 3 for them was that they might apprehend the breadth and length and depth and height -- the whole sphere of blessing. Publicly, we may say, the whole sphere is occupied and filled by what is of Satan; in the future it will be occupied and filled by God. The church knew, and witnessed of that -- hence the conflict.

Taking possession is what you apprehend in your soul. There is not so very much of what we call eternal state. The bulk of scripture refers to what is this side of the eternal state. God creates Jerusalem a joy, and you may depend it will be new, Isaiah 65:17, etc. It is inconceivable to suppose a

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millennium with the climate and the ground as we have them now: in a certain sense things will be new. The moral heavens will certainly be changed, in that Satan shall have been cast out of them, and the knowledge of God will cover the earth. That will be all new. The passages in Isaiah that speak of new heavens, and new earth, refer to the millennium.

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CHRIST AS BUILDER

Matthew 16:13 - 20

I FEEL a good deal of reluctance in undertaking to speak on the assembly (for this is largely the subject in the passage I have read), but my thought is not to speak of the assembly exactly: I wish more to speak of Christ as Builder, and this to the end that our souls might be brought into direct contact with Him. It is a great moment in our history when our attention is directed to Christ personally. No one really finds his true place until he reaches this point. The Lord is the supreme Director in God's universe, and if you wish a place there it must be assigned to you by Him. Coming to Him your history as a man in this world is ended; but then you find that there is a place for you in God's world. As a man in the flesh it is likely that you had a place in this world; and if you are a Christian, and have not one now, I think Satan would interest himself to find you one. But the Lord has a place for you, and if He has spoken to you at all it is to the end that you might come to Him, and find your place in His system.

Christ is deserving of the attention of men. He is great. In chapter 11 of this gospel He calls attention to Himself, and in chapter 12 His greatness is dwelt upon. Great men are usually of interest to people, and it is on this ground I would call your attention to Christ. I am greatly impressed with the greatness of Christ as presented in this gospel. John the Baptist was affected by the Lord's greatness when he said, "Behold the Lamb of God" John 1:36. The result was that his disciples left John and followed Jesus. Coming to Him they found the Messiah -- a wonderful find. Later on, Nathaniel found the Son of God -- a still more wonderful discovery. Have you ever found the Son of God?

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let me inquire. Do not tell me you believe He is the Son of God. I ask, Have you found Him in your soul's history? The work of the Holy Ghost in us is to the end that we should make this marvellous discovery.

We are not appreciative of the immense privileges within our reach. If Abraham or David could have found the Messiah, or the Son of God, how rejoiced they would have been! And this great favour is available to us at the present time. You may say, 'I have forgiveness of sins'. This, of course, is indispensable, but nothing can be compared with finding the Son of God. It is the turning point in your history, and you will find a cordial reception. I am sure the Lord was delighted when Peter and Nathaniel came to Him. In coming to Him we find He can use us; He can use us in His building.

The passage before us presents Christ as a Builder. There had been builders before Him, and God had tested them. He said, as it were, 'Here is a stone for your building'. Wonderful condescension! 'What are you going to do with this Stone? lf you are builders you are surely judges of building material: can you tell whether or not this Stone is any good?' Did they examine the Stone? They did examine the Stone, and they had no difficulty in deciding as to it. What was their decision? They cast it aside as worthless; and in this way the builders were thoroughly exposed. What a system that must be in which the blessed Son of God could not be used! And what the character of the builders who rejected Him! In like manner are the builders of our own day being exposed. They assume to test Christianity and the Scriptures by science, and the result is as of old. Pure Christianity and the Scriptures do not fit into the present day world-structure; hence they are rejected. But the Stone which the builders rejected is made the Head of the corner.

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The rejection of Christ by the builders has created a most serious situation. He is cast aside as worthless, and it is to Him we come. No man in his natural feelings would care to be accounted worthless: the thought is terrible to the flesh. We all like to be accounted something in the esteem of this world, but if we are true to the Lord we are certain to share His fate, and indeed, if we love Him, we should not care to have it otherwise. A true disciple would scorn to be found in a system in which there could be no place found for his Master.

If the Lord was useless to the builders in this world, and if He could not fit into their structure, He would build Himself; He would have a building of His own. This is what appears in the verses I have read. He questions the disciples as to who He was. Whom did men say He was? Some one person, and some another. But whom did the disciples say He was? This was a great question on the part of the Lord. He gave the disciples an opportunity, as it were, to express their verdict. Peter expresses it, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God". Matthew 16:16. Wonderful confession! I think it must have been delightful to the Lord's heart. He immediately recognises that the Father was the source of it; but how blessed for Peter to be made in this way acquainted with this wonderful Person. I think the Lord affords this great favour to us all. He would, as it were, ask you for your verdict as to Him. What is your verdict? may I ask. You would not be accounted orthodox if you did not believe that Jesus is the Son of God; every child who reads Scripture would say this; but the question is, 'What have you discovered Him to be in your soul's history? Have you made acquaintance with Him as the Son of God?'

Directly Peter recognises Him in this way the Lord begins to speak of a building. "Upon this

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Rock I will build my assembly". Matthew 16:18. There was not only the foundation there, but the material for the building also -- at least there was one stone there. Peter was this stone.

Now I want to impress upon you that Christ has taken up the position of Builder and evidently He must have material: He must have building material, and this material must be approved of by Him. We may be sure the Lord is a perfect Builder, and also a perfect judge of building material. I imagine I can hear someone say, 'I should like to be approved by Him; I should like to fit into His building'. Then I say, if this be so the Lord can use you; but in order to be used you must be prepared. For an ordinary building the stones must be prepared, and so also must the stones be prepared for Christ's building; in the latter case the preparation takes the form of education. It is an edifice in which the character of Christ is to appear throughout; hence to be stones here we must be of His kind. In any ordinary kingdom it is a much more simple matter to be a good subject than it is to play a public part in the metropolis. Any ordinary provincial may be a good subject, but it requires education and polish to shine at court. If we suppose a kingdom ruled by an absolute monarch (such as Babylon under Nebuchadnezzar) I should expect the capital to bear certain marks of the king's character. The whole kingdom would be more or less affected by his character, but more particularly his metropolis. His statesmen and courtiers too would bear his impress, and would seek in every way to be in accord with him. Beloved friends, we are not only in the kingdom; we are to be the metropolis. Is it not a matter of great concern to you? I think if you ponder it you will conclude that education is necessary. God had designed the church to be the great metropolis of the universe, and this should be a matter of the profoundest concern

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to every one of us; and it is evident that we must be prepared for it; we must be trained: we must be educated: we must learn from Christ. The church would be assailed by the same hostile power that assailed Christ. Who could stand against it? None but those who had learned from the Lord how to overcome. Peter was one of these. The Lord had educated him by example: the Lord walked on the water; so did Peter. A babe will not walk on the water: it requires energy and courage to do that.

In chapter 11 the Lord calls attention to Himself as the Model, and in chapters 14 and 15 a course of education is outlined, and all this with a view to the new structure. Peter is designated as a stone on the ground of his confession; but in his case a good deal had preceded this, as we have seen. But my object is to interest your hearts in Christ: He needs you in that which He has before Him and if you allow Him His way He will do great things for you; He will fit you for that blessed living structure of His, and give you a place in it. This structure shall supplant all that had preceded it and shall abide forever.

I greatly like the expression "My assembly". I think the Lord contemplated something of His own. The Lord had the city before Him. It is true the word is not found in this chapter, but I have no doubt at all that the Lord had it in His mind. He had no place in Chorazin, in Bethsaida, or Capernaum, but He would have a city of His own; there His rule and order would be maintained and displayed. Dear believer, do you think you are His own in a practical way if you are self-willed? I am sure you are not. If your heart is set on some object in this poor world you are of no practical use to the Lord. In His assembly I think the Lord would have an answer to His affections, but I think He also intended to use it down here. For this it must be entirely under His

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control, and this is what He intended. He intended to have a centre of government and also a home -- a sphere of affection. These two things were found in the church at the outset. The Lord had a place on earth into which He could come at any time, and with the most perfect freedom, and where too He would always receive the most affectionate welcome; to this also He could invite others. This was a great triumph. The Lord found a home here in the affections of His people, and poor homeless ones in this world found a welcome there also. But all this depended upon the relation in which the saints stood to Christ, and to each other. Every saint referred to in Acts 2 was a living stone, and they were all built in: they stood in relation to Christ and to each other in love. What a marvellous triumph in a world of hatred -- a company of people standing in relation to the Lord, and to each other in love, and completely superior to all the power of evil. There was a witness to God in His nature: they stood there as the witness and pledge of His intervention for the blessing of humanity.

This, alas, is no longer visible, but we must not thereby be discouraged; we should cleave to the original thought of the Lord and yield ourselves wholly up to Him. Where this is the case He can still do something for men, but if we remain apart from one another, pursuing our several paths of disobedience, we are of no practical use to Him.

That there should be a few Christians walking in relation to Christ, and to each other in love, in any locality, is a great favour conferred upon it. It is really in this way God reaches men in blessing.

Well, it is but feebly I have presented this great subject to you, but I think you will not fail to catch my thought; the Lord is building and evidently must have building material. May we then be exercised about it and yield ourselves to Him for His pleasure.

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Pages 108 to 255 "Readings and Addresses at Meetings held in Chicago", December 31, 1904, and January 1 and 2, 1905 (Volume 1).

PREFACE

The reader may be aware that the following "Notes", as they primarily appeared, were the occasion of much difficulty. They had unfortunately been allowed to go into circulation in type-written form without being properly revised and as such they became the subject of comment and adverse criticism.

The explanation of this is twofold

(1) As the object of sending out the Notes, in the first instance, was that those in America who could not be present at the meetings, might get the benefit of what it seemed the Lord gave, and as most of these were acquainted with the speakers, and did not suspect them of bad doctrine (the speakers themselves being utterly unconscious of holding any, or even of having said anything very different to what was currently accepted), it was not anticipated that there would be much objection taken; hence the need of guarding was not apparent. The statements of the different speakers were left pretty much as reported by the stenographer. In this way many expressions were allowed to stand which, although well understood when given out orally, were capable of misconstruction by a reader unacquainted with these who gave utterance to them. This weak point was felt keenly by those responsible when it was discovered that the Notes were becoming a subject of public criticism, and accordingly sorrow has been elsewhere expressed on this account.

It was not understood by many that the point of view taken in the Notes had reference to what is

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connected with the Holy Ghost down here, rather than to the heavenly side of the truth. This latter was affirmed, but because it was not made prominent, it was assumed by some that it was denied. But this was not the case (God forbid that it should be!), the heavenly side was affirmed, as said above, but the necessity for pressing it did not exist, whereas the necessity for calling attention to the church, as established at the beginning in the power of the Holy Ghost, as a practical sphere of protection and blessing for man, did exist. Hence the thought of the house of God predominated all through. The spirit of popular revivalism (that in which God is flippantly connected with manifest disorder), which prevailed at that time, led to serious concern as to how little the revealed mind of God was adhered to in the announcement of the glad tidings; and on this account it was thought needful to call attention to the order and conditions which attended the first preaching by the apostles. The in-coming of the Holy Ghost from an ascended Christ, was the advent of a new order of things; it was an order of things in which the light of God was maintained in power, and in it were found practically, as they are to be known at the present time, the things (salvation, life, etc.) which the gospel announced as having come to pass through Christ. Although heavenly, as vitally linked up with Christ in heaven by the Spirit, yet this new and blessed sphere was actually here on earth, and so (although absolutely apart from the world in the sanctification of the Spirit) was available to men. (Compare Acts 2; Psalm 133). It may be remarked that it is not necessary that things should be in heaven in order that they may be in Christ. It is true, as said before, that the church is linked with Him in heaven (her place is there), in all her peculiar privileges and blessings, but at the same time salvation, although in Christ, is said to be in His name

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under heaven, Acts 4:12; also as to life: the Spirit is said to be life, Romans 8:10, and He is here.

Although it is confidently hoped the Notes will be found by many both instructive and edifying, yet the chief intent in printing them at the present time is not alone to this end, but rather that saints may have before them substantially that which has been called in question, so as to be in a position to judge for themselves in regard to it, as before the Lord. Hence it is hoped it will be clearly understood that they are in no sense to be regarded as dogmatic; that is, no one is expected to bow to them; they are simply to be read for what they may be worth, and if there be those who differ, and yet cannot prove the existence of fundamental error, it is hoped that they will leave the Notes, and those responsible for them, in the hands of the Lord, who will not fail to make everything manifest in time.

A word may be added as to "living water". What was in the minds of the speakers was that the living water refers to the Spirit as in man (in Christ, and now also in the saints), and so adapted to the thirst of men. In John 4 and John 7 Christ is seen as the Giver of living water, but in both chapters what He gives is also seen as in the believer: in chapter 4 it becomes in the one who drinks a "well of water springing up into everlasting life", (John 4:14) and in chapter 7 (where the Spirit is identified with the living water), it flows as rivers out of the belly of the believer. This is in view of thirst in others. The believer is not the source: Christ is this, but still the living water is said to flow out of the believer. We are bound to connect John 7 with Acts 2 in order to see the historical fulfilment of the Lord's promise; and in doing this we must introduce the collective idea, which the latter chapter supplies -- no believer could in himself contain the Spirit. Peter alluded to the Spirit in his address in Acts 2. He was in the believers as

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given by a glorified Christ, and as such was available to thirsty souls in the world. John 7 may be said to refer strictly to those who believed on Christ during the time of His testimony in humiliation down here; as glorified He would give to them the Holy Spirit, which would flow out from them. What is seen in the church, as recorded in the early chapters of Acts, is the only adequate answer to this, although it goes on, in the principle of it, till the end, Revelation 22, and in measure may be exemplified in each believer. But in order to drink, each one must come to Christ, the Source and Giver. The reference to locating the living water may seem new, but it is extraordinary that the thought contained in it should be questioned. The New Testament teaches, as shown above, that the Spirit is the living water, and also that He dwells in the assembly, which is morally a location (comp. John 14:17): wherein then is the error in saying that He should be located? To "locate" simply means that souls should be instructed as to the sphere where the blessed activities of the Holy Ghost are known.

The writer, who is responsible not only for the revision, but also mainly for the teaching of the Notes, is aware of the many imperfections contained in them even as revised, but he would count on the Lord that He may enable those into whose hands they may come, to read them in a charitable spirit, and thus that they may arrive at the meaning intended to be conveyed. He fully believes what the Notes contain to be in accordance with the teaching of Scripture, but he is open to correction, and if it be shown that any part or parts, are unsound, he will withdraw them and own his error. Thus the Notes are committed to the Lord.

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THE HOUSE OF GOD AND THE GOSPEL

1 Timothy 1:1 - 7

J.T. My thought in suggesting this scripture was that we might get some idea of the conditions under which the gospel primarily was announced. Historically the apostolic preaching did not begin until the house was formed.

J.P. I suppose the character of God, the way in which He has been pleased to come out in Christ, was to be set forth in connection with the house?

J.T. That is the thought in the house.

J.P. The house of God is really very wonderful in that way.

J.T. Yes, and I think the assembly at Ephesus formed a good opportunity for the apostle to outline the conduct that was becoming to the saints viewed as the house; the saints there were formed according to God. Timothy was at Ephesus, and I think this gives a clue as to what gave rise to the epistle.

J.P. The state of things at Ephesus was such that God could take account of it and use it to bring out the truth of His house.

J.T. Exactly; the house was there really at Ephesus. Perhaps in the Acts the first great point is Jerusalem; then Antioch, and finally Ephesus. The ministry of the apostle had been so effectual at Ephesus that a company was formed of such a character as to enable the Spirit to regard it as the house of God. In this way I think it may be taken to represent the whole church.

JR The first gospel address really took the form of an explanation of what God had brought to pass through Christ, the Spirit here answering to His exaltation.

J.T. Yes, "the great things of God". God had come to dwell among His people at Jerusalem, and

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the effect of this was apparent to the multitude. The saints were fully in accord with their great privilege, Acts 2.

J.P. It is like God to begin at the top; from the highest point. If we are going to look at the gospel all this invests it with a wonderful character.

J.T. If God is going to be represented down here, you would expect He would bring to pass in His assembly at Jerusalem, or Ephesus, or anywhere else, what would adequately set forth His character. The gospel is the revelation of God; the character of God is really what clothes it. Ephesus becomes a very important company, or assembly, in the Acts. The apostle Paul spent three years there, and he did not spend them there for nothing. God intended to form a company in that city that would adequately set forth His church as a whole; He was to be set forth in the church. When decline sets in, Revelation 2, Ephesus also stands for the whole church. You do not get the gospel presented in power in a declining church, but you do where the love of God is active. The apostle could say he had spent his time in announcing the kingdom of God from house to house with tears, and had not shunned to declare unto them all the counsel of God; and all this to the end that they might be perfectly qualified to represent God down here; and I think this epistle was to that end. His thought in sending Timothy to Ephesus was, that whatever was lacking he might supply.

R.S.S. The first intimation of decline was also at Ephesus, Revelation 2.

J.T. God set up the assembly perfectly at Jerusalem and Ephesus. That is to say, you could take account of the assemblies in these cities as God's handiwork, and in that point of view they were perfect; there was nothing lacking; everything was supplied. Now the apostle in leaving the saints at Ephesus committed it into the hands of men; he

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committed it to the elders. The result is what we see all around us -- the ruin, but the witness to the gospel at the outset was in that which was divinely and perfectly set up.

Ques. The church at Ephesus stood representatively at the beginning: does not Philadelphia stand representatively at the end?

J.T. Yes, I think so, but the point in Philadelphia is appreciation of Christ. Philadelphia is not the candlestick, but Ephesus was that representatively. I think Ephesus was set up more as God's handiwork, to be the candlestick, and in that sense stands for the whole church.

JP. Philadelphia is the moral recovery of what was true at the beginning, in connection with appreciation of Christ, but not the candlestick.

Ques. Does not Philadelphia really bring out in the end what is suited to the heart of Christ, descriptive of what the church really is?

J.T. Yes, what the church is to Christ. There is nothing public about it, but in Ephesus there was what was public. The whole of Asia heard the word of God through Ephesus: the assembly began with twelve men who received the Holy Ghost through Paul - The preaching was by the apostle, but he was of the assembly.

I think it is a great thing to be able to take account of what God established: there was nothing lacking in it when He established it.

Ques. Is it not our privilege now, notwithstanding all the breakdown, to be in the light of it?

J.T. Yes, I think it is our privilege to be in the light of it, but you can never be it.

J.P. I think what we have set before us is most important, for in the minds of many the thought of the gospel has been entirely dissociated from that which God established in perfection in the beginning.

J.T. Yes, but if you will consider the principal

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gospel parables in Luke, you will find the existence of the house is supposed in them.

J.P. Mention one, please?

J.T. There is Luke 14; that is to say, the "great supper", as we call it. You cannot have a great supper without a house in which to spread it. You must have a house with all the equipment necessary for the accommodation of the guests, and I do not think God would be behind in that way, so there it was. All things were ready. The parable begins with all things being ready, and at the end it is "that my house may be filled". Luke 14:23. It is so all through the great gospel parables of Luke. Chapter 7 is an exception, but there it is a question of forgiveness. Even the parable of the good Samaritan in a sense involves the house; that is to say, the "inn". The idea is there at any rate.

R.S.S. I suppose the thought you had in mind, is that the general idea is to connect the gospel with the individual?

J.P. The individual, as having needs and these being met, you mean?

R.S.S. The individual who proclaims it.

J.P. It applies to both sides -- the man that preaches it and those to whom it is preached. I do not think there has been the thought, in the minds of many of us, of the connection of the gospel with the house of God, and especially the house of God as established in divine perfection and beauty at the beginning. Do you not think the thought of the house of God is really what throws light on Ephesians 3?

J.T. Yes, I think so. "Filled to all the fulness of God", which meant that they were to have the knowledge of God in love. They were to be filled to all the fulness of God in order to set forth God adequately -- to represent God down here. You cannot conceive of anything else. God intended to

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have representatives down here, and those who were to be such were to be filled with His love.

I think the popular idea of the gospel is pretty much theoretic -- very largely a question of doctrine: I should perhaps say a question of creed. I think we have a purer creed than others; still, with us it is very largely a question of creed, and I do not think a creed can be the gospel. The idea of the gospel is the attitude of God toward man in Christ, and the answer to it is what He had established down here in the power of the Spirit for man's deliverance from the power of evil.

R.S.S. That is, it is vital -- a living thing.

J.T. And as such it is that which is brought within the reach of man, so the first gospel address we have is in regard to what is down here, in answer to Christ having gone to the right hand of God. The repentant Jews would receive the gift of the Spirit, who was already there in the house (Acts 2).

J.P. The Jews did not know what had happened when they heard the disciples speaking under the power of the Spirit of God, and some said they were drunk with new wine. Peter rises to the occasion, and tells them what had really come to pass in Jerusalem that day.

J.T. So it takes the character of an explanation; the effect produced by the presence of the Spirit in the saints led to enquiry on the part of the people. Hence the form of the gospel address. That is, what God established down here was perfectly capable of arresting the attention of men.

J.P. In 1 Corinthians 14 we get the order in God's house: a simple person coming in would recognise by this that God was there.

J.T. The order of Solomon's house greatly affected the Queen of Sheba.

J.P. Scripture says, "When the queen of Sheba

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had seen the wisdom of Solomon, and the house that he had built", etc. 1 Kings 10:4.

J.T. I should like to see the saints living according to God. I think we ought to be concerned about the gospel, but the first thing is to be formed according to God, so that we should be a testimony to it.

R.S.S. I believe, in general, if what characterises the saints were analysed, you would find they are very largely formed by that which is not according to God. They go through an immense deal of exercise that is not really of the Spirit. I am sure that we may thank God that He, in the main, has set and maintained us on the right line, on the Spirit's line, and this is most encouraging.

J.T. And the next thing is for us to get together in affection. If we are to be of any help at all to men, it must be as bound together by the Spirit.

R.S.S. And then something vital comes out.

J.T. Preaching and building go together in the scriptures.

J.P. Do you not mean building and preaching?

J.T. Exactly -- I did. The building precedes the preaching. Historically the preaching began after the building was formed by the descent of the Holy Ghost.

J.P. The order in Acts 9:31 is very instructive viz., edification followed by increase, or multiplication.

J.T. I have no doubt the order of Scripture is right. In the case of Noah his preaching depended on his building. Building and preaching went on the same length of time. How did he condemn the world? By building. The building was accompanied by preaching, but if he was to condemn the world it was by the building.

J.P. In Hebrews 11 it says, "By the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith". It was his preparing

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an ark. That was the point. "By faith" Noah prepared an ark. The ark, as prepared by Noah, was the condemnation of the world.

Rem. In the case of Nehemiah it was the building of the wall.

J.T. It is wonderful to see how the building of the ark brings out the patience of God. As it is said in Peter, "The longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah". 1 Peter 3:20. It is a very comforting thing in a day like this, and in a country like this, where you see so little result from the testimony. In Noah's case he built, and he preached, and apparently nobody was affected by his preaching, but then the patience of God came out. So it is, I think, if we are in the good of the building, we shall not be discouraged. If in any place you have a company of people bound together in love, it brings a testimony of God to the people of that community. No matter how it may be treated, the testimony of God is preserved; the longsuffering of God is demonstrated by it.

Nobody regarded the preaching in the days of Noah; nevertheless the ark was built, and completed; and I think God gained His point, in that His longsuffering came out.

Ques. The building of the house of God is the condemnation of the world, is it not?

J.T. I think so. It indicates the overthrow of the world-system. That is what the gospel involves. If the gospel does not effect the overthrow of the world for us, it has not proved effectual with us.

The establishment of the house of God indicated the overthrow of the world-system. That is really, too, what the ark meant.

Salvation is not for heaven, but from this world. The salvation of the children of Israel involved the destruction of the Egyptians. Indeed, in the coming day salvation will mean the complete setting aside

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of the world-system, and the introduction of a new system.

J.P. He "gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world", Galatians 1:4.

J.T. The point now is water; that is, baptism.

Ques. Is it not more Judaism in Galatians? Judaism was something God set up for a time, and people wanted to go on with it.

J.T. The world-system, as the Lord found it here, was in connection with Judaism. What gave it all its power was that it was set up by God. Now that is to be done away with, and something new is to take its place; and that is, I think, the reason why baptism is so prominent in the Acts.

Rem. Please say a little more about the world-system. I believe people have a wrong idea with regard to the world-system. They look at it more in view of the lusts of the flesh.

J.T. Judaism was that which was established by God, and it was in that way it had all its power. I do not say that applies to the present world-system, although God has given the Gentile powers their authority; but the world-system of Scripture, that which the Lord had to deal with, was really set up by God, and it had Jerusalem as its centre. But it had fallen under the power of Satan, and was in direct opposition to God, as the sequel proved.

J.P. So in John's gospel, the Jew morally is the world.

J.T. What we need to see is that the Lord came into things as He found them, came into what was here. He found a system of things established, which He owned and recognised. He did not disown it, but made the most of it, and if He could, would have used it; but He could riot do anything with it. Its true character came out, and as He could not use it, He established a system of His own. People do not see that, and hence do not understand the

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gospel. The gospel involves the idea of an entirely new system; it properly means the coming age, but the coming age took form in the church. Every element in the coming age must find an answer in the church. The church took the place, for the moment, of the new system.

J.P. The gospel was, and is, really a divine explanation of what God has brought to pass and established in Christ at His right hand, and in the Holy Ghost down here. Not only the old thing judged and destroyed morally, but the new thing established.

Rem. When Noah came out of the ark, he came into a new scene.

J.T. Yes, and he brought every element of the new world out of the ark. When the Lord came into this scene He would have established His kingdom. But He was not received, so the whole thing was set aside: then the Lord began anew. He says, "Behold, your house is left unto you desolate". Matthew 23:38. Consequent on this He brings in another house; a house of His own. I like to revert to that company of people whom the Lord left down here. Simple fishermen, who had escaped the corruption that is in the world. The world had not formed them at all; they were entirely formed by Christ. There was no connection in any shape or form between the world-system and what God set up. The glad tidings, the announcement of what the Lord had done, were to be in connection with this new system, of which Christ is the Head.

Rem. The rich and mighty men in the world were not needed in God's system at all, and on the other hand those in His system had no place in the world-system.

Rem. In the case of Paul, all he had as in the world-system was nothing to him among the saints.

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R.S.S. All Paul had in connection with the world-system he calls "dung".

J.T. It is remarkable that he went to tent-making afterwards. He did not seem to take advantage of his education at all. The thing to get hold of is what suits God; what He intends should represent Him down here. And then another thing comes out: all the elements of the coming age were to be carried through and preserved until the time arrives, just as in the case of Noah. The idea in the ark was not only salvation, but preservation. Eight souls were saved, but we read that Noah was "preserved" in the ark, and everything necessary for the establishment of a new world was also preserved.

J.P. It was a beautiful point our brother brought out when he said that when Noah stepped out of the ark he came into an entirely new scene; everything in it had been brought through in the ark. The first great thing after he got out was that wonderful burnt offering: all the substance for it had been carried through in the ark.

J.T. What would Noah have done otherwise? He could not have established a new world by himself. It requires a great many things to establish a world. Everything for the renewed earth was carried through in the ark. That illustrates what the church is.

Rem. In the house of God everything is preserved for God.

J.T. Every element of the coming age is preserved in the house. Although the ship in which Paul sailed was actually wrecked, Acts 27, nevertheless all on board reached land safely.

Ques. What answers to the ark now?

J.T.. The ark is typical of Christ, but I think also of the church in a way, as I said; the idea is there at any rate. When the Lord was rejected, that was the judgment of the world morally. "Now is the judgment of this world". John 12:31. God never reverted to

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the world again. In the meantime, how is God going to preserve His thoughts and purposes? He had given expression to a good many blessed thoughts in Old Testament times. What was going to become of them? The Lord intended all these things to be taken up and preserved in the church until the time of the display of the new order arrives.

Rem. All would not take account of the ark as you have spoken of it.

J.T. Any right minded person would admit the flood was a mercy, the only hope for the world. If you have a house polluted with every kind of disease, a thorough cleansing would be needed, otherwise everyone in it would die. That was the state of the world -- polluted -- and the only remedy was the flood. It was judgment, of course, but a mercy. Everything God does is in mercy; it is the outcome of His love. Any right minded person who reads Genesis 6 would say, What a mercy the flood was, the only means of salvation for Noah and his family from that terrible state of things. They were saved through water.

J.P. What must have been the feelings of Noah and his family when they came out of the ark into a new world! Saved from that old world (so horribly corrupted), by that which to the world was judgment.

J.T. And what an infinite mercy baptism is to a man who has a family. Look at the polluted system of things we have to deal with.

Ques. Why do you say, "to a man who has a family"?

J.T. God takes account of your family. If I professed interest in you, you would not take much account of it if I did not interest myself in your family. God knows man's heart. If a man has a wife, he loves his wife and children, and God not only saves you, but your house. That is the idea

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of baptism. Baptism is a mercy it means preservation from the present polluted system.

Ques. Would you say salvation to you and your house is not soul salvation, but salvation from this present evil world?

J.T. Yes. The thought of salvation formerly referred to the state of the world; and every person taught of God wants to get out of the world. It is a polluted, corrupted system, and one cannot thrive in it; you want to get out of it. The Lord wondered there was no man, and so His own arm brought in salvation. He clothed Himself in armour, and brought judgment upon the world-system, Isaiah 69.

J.P. Romans 8 looks on to the deliverance of creation.

J.T. The creation is subject to the power of sin, and groans under it. As to our bodies, we have part in this, notwithstanding that we have the first-fruits of the Spirit, but we are saved in hope: we are looking on to final deliverance with the rest of creation.

While you await the salvation of your body, you get soul-salvation from the world-system in virtue of the presence of the Holy Ghost down here.

R.S.S. Someone asked the question, What is the ark symbolical of? The general thought would be, It typified Christ. I was struck with your remark, that you thought it was also typical of the church.

J.T. I think in a certain sense that Noah is typical of Christ, in that he prepared an ark to the saving of his house. I do not think it can be denied that the church is that in which things are preserved in view of the judgment of the world.

R.S.S. Something like the city of refuge.

J.T. In view of the destruction of Judaism the spared ones from among the Jews found refuge and preservation in the assembly, Acts 2:47.

Rem. Salvation is found in the Christian circle.

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J.T. I cannot conceive how anybody can think of salvation being available to men without the church at the present time. By "present time", I mean the time of the Lord's absence from this world. The existence of the church as the vessel of the Holy Ghost here means salvation in a practical sense.

Rem. A few Christians walking together in love are a great thing for the people in that vicinity.

J.T. We want to get the idea of salvation from Scripture. It means deliverance from the world-system. Of course Christ is the subject of the gospel, but Christ according to what He can do. What has He done? The gospel explains what He has done. Peter tells what has been brought to pass through Christ in Acts 2. He tells them that God has made both Lord and Christ that same Jesus whom they had crucified; and He "having therefore been exalted by the right hand of God, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this which ye behold and hear". Acts 2:33. And so in chapter 4 Peter tells them that salvation is in none other than Christ.

Every Christian can tell how salvation came to him. Christ has effected it for him, but through what He has established down here.

J.P. Do not omit this portion: "Men and brethren, what shall we do? ... Repent, and be baptized every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost". Acts 2:37,38. Peter's answer to the Jew's question is gospel.

Rem. It is an important thing to see that He set the gifts in the church.

J.T. I do not see how you can have the gospel without the church. Hence, considering the state of things today, one is greatly humbled in attempting to preach the gospel. Sometimes you hear people

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speak about evangelists, pastors, teachers, etc., as if we lived in the days of Ephesus, when things were in order and freshness. I think we should refer to things very humbly and soberly.

Rem. Things are at such a low ebb you cannot find many evangelists and teachers.

J.T. You do not see very many according to God. You might find a good many taking that place, but those who are really formed according to God are not plentiful.

What is popularly called preaching the gospel today is really preaching a creed. I do not say there is not light connected with it, for there is, and people get more or less help. One would not deny it, but the true idea of the gospel was to bring people to God -- into a sphere where they would be safe and at home.

Ques. Do you mean by creed, the different ideas of the different sects?

J.T. I think any man with a fairly good mind and education, who can give a good address, can preach, but the question is: Has he the gospel to present? It is a great thing doubtless to be able to point to the work of Christ on the cross, and to His resurrection; through these a man gets a good conscience, but the world as dominated by Satan is still here, and unless he is brought morally into a sphere where righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Ghost are found, he has no present salvation.

Take the parable in Luke 10. If the Samaritan had left the half-dead man by the roadside, after he had poured in the oil and wine, he would have still been exposed to the robbers; but the Samaritan did not leave him there.

Rem. The man would not have been saved from his enemies if he had been left there, but he was brought to the inn. Where is the inn?

J.T. I fancy it must be among the saints. Where could the Lord find anybody to take care of His

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people? Could He go to the rulers of the world, or to the magistrates of the city? No, only to those who loved Him.

R.S.S. Then there is the inn-keeper, which represents the Spirit of God. I suppose the two great things for us today are that Christ is glorified, and that the Spirit of God is here?

J.T. Yes, the Spirit here in the saints involves the "inn", I believe.

Ques. What is your thought in regard to the present moment? Does it not take the character of 2 Timothy, where the apostle exhorts Timothy to do the work of an evangelist? To be an evangelist at the present time, would you not really need to be in the light of the house of God?

J.T. Paul does not tell Timothy to be an evangelist, but to do the work of an evangelist. I think if we are to be of any help to men now we must have living water to offer. What is offered at the end of Revelation 22 is living water, and it is to "whosoever will". The water of life is there, and I think the important thing is to locate it for people.

J.P. I think it very remarkable that that should come in at the end, and it is presented in the widest possible way. "Whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely". Revelation 22:17.

J.T. You must locate it for him. I would not pay any attention to a man's gospel if he does not locate what I need. Man is in need, and the person who preaches the gospel should locate what will relieve him. At the same time, although the Holy Ghost is not anywhere else on earth than in the saints, and in certain cases was received through the administration of man, Acts 8:17; Acts 9:17; Acts 19:6, yet it would be wrong to imply that the church is the giver of living water. Christ is the Giver of living water, although what He gives is now here.

J.P. People say, We must go out for sinners.

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You get a company in divine order; a few people together, built up in divine love, then God will begin to work, because that is His way, and you cannot make God change His way to suit you. That is the way He did in the beginning. He established the house, and then sinners came in afterwards.

You said a little while ago that a person could not be saved from the world-system apart from the saints. That is to say, God has established a sphere down here where we are to dwell together in love, apart from all evil, and superior to all the attacks of the enemy.

J.T. Every Christian would agree with that: we all know what an advantage it is to be in touch with those who are going on in the Spirit. You find protection there, and you find that which your heart longs for, and by these things you are saved and preserved. The Lord has put all these things here for you. If there is such a company in Chicago the Lord has put them there, and they are there for your good. Of course, Scripture furnishes examples of individuals enjoying salvation while actually isolated, such as Paul at Rome, and John in Patmos, but they were in the energy of the Spirit, and always in the church.

R.S.S. What do you understand by "living water", in the way you were speaking of it just now?

J.P. The Spirit is living water.

R.S.S. How would you locate the Spirit? Where do you find it?

J.P. In the saints. Among the people of God, He was never sent to the world. He shall abide with you, and dwell in you.

J.T. How is living water, the Spirit, to be made available to the need of humanity? People cannot see the Spirit. You may talk about the Holy Ghost, and they have no idea of what is meant; but if they see people walking together in love there is something

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they can take account of, and one who is really under exercise takes hold of that at once, and says: That is what I need. In that way living water is available among the Lord's people, but Christ is ever the Giver of it.

J.P. Of course this is a day of weakness, but with regard to all these things of which you have been speaking, you can see them demonstrated under your very eyes. Occasionally you see believers turning away from the saints: there is no salvation outside. So it is with regard to all you have spoken about. Living water, the Spirit, is made available for men in the saints. The Lord, of course, is ever the Giver.

R.S.S. Coming out as you find in Galatians, "The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, Longsuffering, gentleness, goodness", etc. Galatians 5:22,23. Is that your thought?

J.T. Yes. The Lord spoke about the water He would give, John 4. I think the Lord felt greatly hampered when here, for in a sense He was dependent on Jacob's well. It was there, and He was thirsty, and drank from it. When speaking to the woman, what was really in the Lord's mind was a well of His own: He would dig a well. Really the woman herself was to be His well, in a sense.

J.P. It "shall become in him a fountain of water, springing up into eternal life". John 4:14.

J.T. In chapter 7 you get rivers of water. The Lord Jesus put the living water down here, and I think the great exercise with us should be to make it evident that it is here. If we have the water then we can present the gospel.

R.S.S. Your thought in connection with the gospel was, you not only present God's attitude in the forgiveness of sins, but you would seek to bring the person into touch with that which is of God here in the world -- that is, the people of God who are really expressing Christ.

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J.T. Yes, you not only enlighten a person as to God's attitude toward him, but you also enlighten him in regard to what God has put down here for his benefit -- that is the living water. The tendency to separate Christ from the saints at the present time is very noteworthy. The church is Christ's body -- that through which He acts and is known, down here.

All the saints were to be formed according to God and to be in His house, as we said at the beginning. Ephesians 3 puts it "Filled even to all the fulness of God". Such people would be evangelical -- not evangelists exactly.

R.S.S. Would you think Andrew illustrates what you were speaking of just now? He first found his brother Simon, and brought him to Jesus. Of course, Christ personally is not here now, but in the faith of his soul he must come to Christ.

J.T. And it is important to get him as close as we can to spiritual people. You can enlighten him by presenting Christ glorified to him, but after he is enlightened and believes in Christ, the man has an aching heart that needs to be filled, and you want to bring him into touch with those who have hearts filled with the love of God.

R.S.S. I was very thankful for your remarks just now in connection with living water being the Spirit. I think we have a very vague idea of it, except as we see it expressed in the people of God.

J.T. If you speak to a man of the Holy Ghost it is a mystery to him, but if he sees people prepared to give up what they have in this world for others, he says, That is not in nature; that is a new principle, and if God is at all working in him he will be affected and will get help.

R.S.S. It is the same thing as to love, 1 Corinthians 13. Love is spoken of there in connection with man here on earth, and the way it comes out is, "Charity suffereth long, and is kind", etc.

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J.T. God knows man's heart and has adapted Himself to man, and the living water is the Spirit as adapted to the needs of man's heart.

R.S.S. I suppose in the passage we read what really comes out is God's attitude, and that expressed in the people of God down here. That is, God desires that all men should be saved, and it is also God's will that prayer should be offered everywhere for all men.

Ques Would you connect with that Simeon's prayer, when he held the child Jesus ("mine eyes have seen thy salvation, which thou hast prepared the face of all people; a light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel" Luke 2:30 - 32) with this passage? It says, "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" 1 Timothy 2:4.

J.T. You mean as to salvation? Yes; Simeon saw in Christ God's salvation, although he did not wish to wait for it: seeing it, he was content to depart.

Ques. Does not the first epistle to Timothy, in the chapter we read, bring out what we should pray to God for, in order that we may live here according to God's mind? Is that not the thought where he speaks of praying for kings, etc.?

J.T. He says, "I exhort therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, thanksgivings be made for all men; for kings and all that are in dignity, that we may lead a quiet and tranquil life in all piety and gravity; for this is good and acceptable before our Saviour God, who desires that all men should be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. For God is one, and the mediator of God and men one, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself a ransom for all, the testimony to be rendered in its own times". 1 Timothy 2:1 - 6. Then Paul goes on to speak of himself as a herald and apostle, etc. All this is based

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on the attitude of God towards men. The prayer is based on that.

R.S.S. Yes, that is a great thing to see; and I have rather thought that perhaps the first thing a soul apprehends, the first light he gets, is the sense of what God's attitude is toward him. If a soul gets that, you may be quite sure a work of God is begun there.

J.T. It was a wonderful conception that God should have a company of people here descriptive of His heart: those who are filled full of love: and it seems to me a great point that such a company existed at Ephesus.

J.P. How important all this is for us at a moment like this! It turns us away from that which is merely external. It brings us back, I believe, to what is according to God, because it is now a question of a company that are really where there is the activity of the divine nature -- where there is some testimony as to what God is.

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THE HOUSE OF GOD AND THE GOSPEL (CONTINUED)

1 Timothy 3:14 - 16; 1 Peter 2:1 - 10

J.P. It has been thought that we might continue the subject we had before us this morning -- the house of God.

R.S.S. What would you say was the relation between the last two verses of the first scripture read? The passage speaks of the house of God, and then goes on to say, "Great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh" 1 Timothy 3:16.

J.T. Verse 15 speaks of conduct in the house, and this must be in accord with the revelation of God in Christ.

R.S.S. Would you say the house of God was consequent upon the manifestation of God in flesh?

J.T. I would.

R.S.S. The last verse is a very remarkable scripture. No doubt its connection is significant.

Ques. Would you say the last verse is connected with the truth?

J.T. Yes, the truth is involved in the mystery of piety, and it is upheld and preserved in the church.

The first epistle to Timothy outlines conduct in God's house: the house was there, and the man who was to conduct himself in the house. The house was literally the assembly at Ephesus, and the man who was to conduct himself in it was Timothy.

J.P. I think the expression, "that thou mayest know how one ought to conduct oneself in God's house" supposes, on the part of Timothy, a knowledge of the divine standard. That is really what came before us this morning, and what you have just said.

J.T. Yes, it was all there at Ephesus. The groundwork of this epistle is what was established there. The house of God must precede conduct in the house.

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J.P. It is a great point to see that everything was there. As was said this morning, the assembly at Ephesus was of great importance. The work begins at Jerusalem, and goes on to Antioch, and at Ephesus you get full bloom. I think it is very helpful to see that everything was there.

J.T. There was the house, the man who was to conduct himself in the house, and the line of conduct outlined. The idea of the house of God is a wonderful thing to get hold of, and I do not think anyone can get a right thought of it without apprehending the material of which it was formed and built.

J.P. That is where the scripture in 1 Peter 2 comes in. It gives an idea of the material.

J.T. It seems to me the primary thought in the house was that the Lord would have something He could call His own. I think the Lord looked forward to that with great delight. He would have that which would be all His own, and hence which He could use with perfect freedom down here,

J.P. This has reference to Matthew 16:18. "On this rock I will build my assembly".

J.T. Quite so. In Matthew 11 the Lord refers to the "babes" in contrast with the leaders in the world-system. Rejected by the latter, He would take up the "babes" and form them for Himself; for His use.

Ques. When Jesus said to Simon, "Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church", Matthew 16:18, what did He indicate?

J.T. Peter's confession indicated that he was a stone, and as such was to form part of the building. The Lord says, as it were, I am going to have a structure, and you are going to be a stone in it.

R.S.S. What would you say is the difference between the house and the body?

J.T. The body is that in which a man is expressed, but a house is that in which a man lives.

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R.S.S. And I suppose you would say that if you go into a man's house, you get a pretty fair idea as to what the man is?

J.T. Quite so. The idea of a house is, I think, a dwelling-place. If God establishes a house, that house is bound to be in every way in accord with God. I think what you see also is that the house of God in its bearing is toward all men; it must be great enough to accommodate all.

R.S.S. The Lord says, "It is written, my house shall be called a house of prayer for all the nations". Mark 11:17.

J.T. In sending out the invitation, God meant to convey that provision had been made for all. There was plenty of accommodation in God's house for the whole of humanity. It affords shelter, a home, etc., for all men. This brings out the vastness of the scheme; what the house was.

Ques. I was thinking of the "great house" (2 Timothy 2:20) and the various vessels in it. Is not that a different thought?

J.T. In any great house there are all kinds of vessels: silver, gold, stone, earthen, some to honour and some to dishonour, etc. I do not think the house of God is alluded to there. To be used by the Master of the house the vessel must be "unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work". 2 Timothy 2:21.

Rem. When speaking of the house of God, it is important that we remember whose house it is -- Gods house.

J.T. I think that is important. It brings in the thought of God's character: it is God's house, and there God must have things all His own way; and what that means is that the material must be all divinely formed. You must have the proper material. If it is to be God's house, it must be constructed of material that is according to God -- in other words, it is all living material, really divine riches.

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W.H.F. You get a description of the material in the second scripture that was read (1 Peter 2), "living stones".

You spoke of the house of God: it is a real thing; there is nothing spurious in it; there could not possibly be in God's house.

J.T. If God's house, it is God's house.

W.H.F. Oftentimes in these days the thought of God's house is given up, or it is looked at as a great house, a mixed sort of thing, where things are in a terrible state of confusion; evil has come in; good and bad are there; but the house of God -- Christ's own building -- has always been from the very beginning that which was of Himself.

Rem. And it is not to be viewed theoretically; it is living.

Ques. In the first scripture read, a man is seen in the house of God, and in the second scripture he is seen as a stone in the building; the same man, in a sense. Would you say a little about that?

J.T. I think the passage in Timothy should properly come in after the one read in Peter. You must get the building before the man acting in it, so we should take up Peter first in that way. We were saying this morning that you could scarcely have preaching without the building; but, as a matter of fact, you do not come into this building without preaching. Becoming part of the building, you come through preaching, but the building must be there before you can come to it, before you can become a part of it; so if you take it up as an individual experience, it is as having grown up to salvation, having tasted that the Lord is good, and having come to Him as the Living Stone, you are built in.

J.P. I think the building-in really depends on what is indicated in the fourth verse "To whom coming, as unto a living stone".

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J.T. You are proved to be a living stone by movement -- movement toward Christ, apprehended as the Living Stone.

Ques. Would you say one might be a stone not yet in the building?

J.T. Yes. I think that is quite true.

Ques. Is not everyone sealed with the Spirit a stone?

J.T. Yes, from the divine side. The first thing is to see the character of what God has instituted down here. To be a living stone there, really supposes you to have surmounted all adverse power.

J.P. And that is really the point you have reached in the third verse: "If indeed ye have tasted that the Lord is good". You have grown up to salvation. Salvation involves the surmounting of all adverse power.

J.T. But then you get another point indicated: you actually move to the Lord; the Lord is rejected, and outside of all here, and you come to Him as the Living Stone, disallowed of men.

Ques. I suppose Peter walking on the water is a type of one who is superior to all adverse power?

J.T. In Matthew 14 you get a man saved: a man walking on the water; and in Matthew 16 that man is given a place in Christ's building; and while that place is really in the presence of all adverse power, he is superior to it. It is a very wonderful thing to be a part of the building.

Rem. I think you have said a child does not walk on the water.

J.T. It needs energy to do that. What you come to is that which God set up down here, and this was in men who had overcome the world. It was true morally that the disciples had overcome the world, and were completely independent of every adverse power. What did Peter, John, and the others care for the world-power? They were superior to it.

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Ques. They were in the power of Christ's resurrection, were they not?

J.T. Yes. We speak of the house now; that which God set up, but I do not think we are sensible of the awful opposition there is to it. It is the same opposition that there was to Christ. It is no small matter to be part of the building. The whole world-power was opposed to Christ.

Now, what would the Lord do? He would build in the presence of all that; actually build; and build that which the gates of hades would not prevail against. It is in taking it up in that way you get an idea of what the building was. It was a wonderful structure.

Ques. At what time do I get built into the church?

J.T. I think when you leave the world-system and come to Christ as the Living Stone, you are fit for the building.

J.P. That was a wonderful point you spoke of just now, "to whom coming". It is wonderful when you reach Him in that way.

J.T. It is. You are then fit to be built in.

Ques. What you have said is the only ground upon which we can be built in?

J.T. I think so.

R.S.S. It needs education.

J.T. It needs divine education. What good is anybody to Christ at the present time who has not faced the world-power and overcome it? If the Lord takes him up he will give way. The Lord knows that too well, and hence would not take up anybody who has not overcome the world-power. The Lord is solicitous of the welfare of every Christian, but before He gives a man a place in the building he must have overcome the world. When in your soul you recognise Christ as the Son of God, the Lord

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would say to you, You are a stone: I can use you in the building.

Rem. That is the man in John 9.

J.T. Quite so; a man that has come out of the world-system. That is to say, the building was formed at the beginning of men who had overcome the world-power, all the power that was against Christ.

J.P. Hence the Lord could say with all assurance and confidence, "The gates of hell shall not prevail against it".

Ques. You would say building into the house, and adding to the church are two different things?

J.T. Adding to the church is not quite building. There were many added who were not built in, although all added by the Lord belonged to the building.

Ques. To be built in, is it not necessary to be partakers of the divine nature?

J.T. I think so. The idea of being built in is that you are a living stone: you have come to the Living Stone.

R.S.S. Would you say it is the appropriation of Christ as Son of the living God, in the soul?

J.T. I think it is, and that involves the antagonism of the whole world-system; in coming to Christ, you must come to Him outside it all.

R.S.S. Is that because Christ is of another order?

J.T. Yes, He is disallowed here.

J.P. Hence, in John's epistle you get, "Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God". 1 John 5:5.

J.T. Yes, as Son of God. He is outside the whole order of things down here; that is what He set forth when He walked on the water; and in order to come to Him we must learn to walk on the water; and I think if you do the Lord will say, Now I can use you.

Ques. What is the wind there suggestive of? The waves were boisterous.

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J.T. The wind would be satanic power, I think.

Ques. What puts the soul in motion?

J.T. Christ. He becomes infinitely attractive. The order is this, I think: in Matthew 11 the Lord calls attention to Himself; in chapter 12 His greatness comes out, and thus you are attracted to Him; in chapter 14 you get Him walking on the water, and I think He walked on the water because He wished to teach Peter to walk on it. Peter leaves the boat and walks on the water to Christ because he loved Him. He says, "If it be thou, bid me come unto thee on the water" Matthew 14:28.

Ques. What does the water set forth there?

J.T. Humanity under the power of Satan. It is often used in that way.

R.S.S. It is often spoken of as death. Jordan is a type of death.

J.T. Jordan represents death, but the water, as we see it in Matthew 14, is that upon which Satan can act. It was acted upon by the wind, and I fancy it is symbolical of man under satanic influence.

Rem. The water is people -- men.

J.T. I think if the Lord is working with you, there are things by which Satan would seek to affect you. If the Lord undertakes to build up a structure here, you may depend upon it Satan will do his best to demolish it. The Lord knew that perfectly well; therefore He built it of proper material -- of Himself morally. He had overcome the world Himself, and was the Foundation -- the Rock. The whole structure was to be of the order of the foundation.

J.P. I think what you have been bringing out connects with all we had this morning. When Christ was here it was a wonderful thing for God, for He was One in whom the blessed God could be perfectly expressed; He was in every way according to God; maintained in divine power against all the power of the enemy. And now the Lord has not intended

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anything less than a continuance of all that was really true in Himself. It is important to see that.

J.T. It was a wonderful thought of God, especially when you consider the kind of people He took up; that is to say, what they were in the eyes of the world. They were of no account at all, and yet they were put together in such wise that they could withstand all the forces of the world-power. It was truly a wonderful conception.

Ques. I feel a difficulty in what is coming out. We have been accustomed to think of the house in connection with the indwelling of the Spirit, thus taking in all believers. You seem to eliminate a great many believers from the house as we get it in this passage.

J.T. I would not eliminate any person having the Holy Ghost from the house; still I think we should keep to the order of Scripture; if you do, you must leave room for building. The person built in is supposed to have salvation, that is, deliverance from this evil world, and to have tasted that the Lord is good, before he comes to the Lord as the Living Stone, and is built in. It is as "living stones" we are built up.

Ques . What would you say the house was to those who had not overcome the world?

J.T. I think every Christian will find comfort there, and the strong will support the weak. It is a very blessed place.

Rem. Account is taken of conduct in the house after you are once there.

J.T. I think the point is you are to conduct yourself according to the house -- it is God's house. I think it is important to see that the Lord is a perfect Builder, and if He builds, He builds of suitable material.

R.S.S. What would you say the characteristic features of God's house are?

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J.T. Love and holiness, because these are characteristic of God. God is love, and God is holy.

Rem. I still have a little difficulty, because I had supposed the force of this scripture was, that they had been cut from the Living Rock -- Christ. While I very much enjoy what you say, my difficulty is that you seem to eliminate some believers from being built in.

J.T. I see what you mean, and I think the only thing is to see what was at the beginning, how the Lord began to work. At the outset evidently they were built in on the ground of coming to the Lord. "To whom coming".

R.S.S. Would you say at the present time you find souls in an abnormal condition? That might explain the difficulty.

J.T. I do not deny at all that everybody who has the Holy Ghost belongs to God's building, from God's side, but the question is, whether or not he is in his place. For instance, if a Christian is in the world he is in the world-system; whereas God's building is God's system. You cannot be practically in both systems at once.

Rem. Then again, I suppose you get stones that are being prepared. You do not get a stone in the quarry that is ready to go into a building: it must be prepared.

J.T. Yes, you see that in Solomon's temple. The stone was taken from the quarry, and prepared, before it came to Jerusalem to be put into the building.

The material used in God's system must be altogether different from that in the world-system, for God's system is all His own, and in every way different from the world-system, so I cannot see how you are going to make out that a man who is in the world is practically in God's system.

Ques. Would you say there is any thought of testing the material?

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J.T. I think so; the test of everything is Christ. The question is whether you have come to Christ, apart from the world-system altogether. You abandon the world-system, and come to Him, and then the Lord can use you. My idea of the Lord using men is that He builds them into His system. The Lord is not using individuals apart from His system.

R.S.S. I suppose the principles set forth in individuals in Old Testament times are now incorporated into God's system?

J.T. Every thought of God for man must find its place in the church now. If the ark had not been capable of going through the flood every thought of God as to it would have been lost. Every animal, Noah and his family, would all have perished in the water. But the ark was capable of going through the flood, and so, taking this as an illustration, the church at the outset was perfectly constructed and capable of standing against all kinds of opposing elements.

R.S.S. Even the gates of hades shall not prevail against it.

J.T. Exactly. You may be sure that Satan would not leave it alone. Satan has done all he can against the church.

Ques. When you speak of a system, what do you mean?

J.T. I speak of God's system, of which Christ is the Centre, which involves the kingdom; and a city as another feature of it, as well as a house, a home; and if you have these three things together, I think you have pretty much the world to come. Every feature of the world to come must find its answer in the church now; thus God's testimony is not in any individual now; it is in the structure.

Ques. Then it is in the way of testimony?

J.T. Yes. Looking at the ark in this way gives you an idea of what the church was intended to be,

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and I think the way it works with people is that they become interested. Even in a day of ruin it is a wonderful thing for a locality to have in it a company of people in accord with God.

Ques. You would say each one of us ought to be exercised to be in accord with God's system?

J.T. Yes, we should be exercised to know how to conduct ourselves in the house of God. The house was originally the sphere of the activity of divine affections.

J.P. The question is, whether we know how to behave ourselves there. I fear we are somewhat strangers to a sphere like that, a sphere where there is nothing but the activity of divine love.

J.T. In 1 Peter 2:5, you get the activity of divine affections towards God: "A holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God by Jesus Christ".

J.P. What a wonderful sphere the house of God is! It is the sphere of the activity of divine love. The activity of divine love, I think, secures everything for God on the one hand, and it secures everything for men on the other; in that way the order is indicated here: "holy priesthood", which is Godward; then the "royal priesthood", which is manward. The activity of divine love secures both.

J.T. If we are constituted priests toward God (holy priests) it is only by love, and if we are constituted royal priests it is by love.

J.P. And you see it perfectly in Christ; it is a wonderful thing to see that everything was secured for God in Christ. God found in Him a full answer to all He was Himself; everything was there for man also; every possible kind of blessing.

Rem. I was thinking of the Levitical priesthood, and how the blood of bulls and goats could give no satisfaction to God, but now in this scripture we

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have before us we can see how we can give pleasure to God.

J.T. Yes, "spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God by Jesus Christ". 1 Peter 2:5. These sacrifices are the outcome of love, and would not be acceptable to God otherwise.

J.P. When God took the children of Israel out of Egypt, He proposed to make them a kingdom of priests to Himself, which would involve their being trained and formed according to God. This never really took place, but what God intended in Israel finds its answer now in the church.

Rem. You might call these the two initial features of the building, that for which it was constructed: Godward and manward.

J.T. You can understand how a man appreciates having his affections reciprocated by his family. The original idea in the institution of a house was that the affections were to centre in the head of the house, and flow downwards to the wife and children, and then to be reciprocated by them; and I think that thought is taken up in God's house. The love all begins with God, but finds its answer in the saints, toward God; then, on the other hand, there is the external aspect of it, the royal character of it, toward the world.

Ques. Does that agree with what you said this morning regarding John 4 and John 7? In John 4 would you say you get what is for God and in John 7 what is for man?

J.T. When the heart answers to God you are a holy priest; when answering to man, you are a royal priest. A man of the world -- what is there royal about him? He is but a common plebeian. He has no royalty. A man who is affected by divine love is royal.

Rem. We have to be kings to be royal.

J.T. You must have royal blood. That is the

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idea of a royal priesthood formed into the nature of Christ. That is the idea of royalty.

J.P. You do not see much indication of royalty in a worldly Christian.

J.T. Not an atom of it. If you want to see what is in God's house, you must look at it as it was set up in the beginning by the hand of God.

Ques. Would you say to have a place in God's house it is necessary to be on that side where the house exists, that is, on the other side of death?

J.T. I think so. The house properly was established in resurrection in superiority to all adverse power. If it were not so, it would have been down in a moment; it would not have been able to stand for Satan's power would have wrecked it.

Rem, It is the pillar and ground of the truth.

J.T. And you may be sure it is a mighty thing to be that: to be the base of the truth, because all the power of Satan was against the truth.

Ques. Is it not a real fight that comes up, as mentioned in the book of Joshua, when we reach the other side of Jordan?

J.T. That relates to the question of conflict; conflict is in connection with the house of God. I think it is that the house of God is that in which God is made known, in which He is expressed; it really means the overthrow of the world-system.

Ques. Is that what you get in Ephesians?

J.T. Yes, those who have the place of the house of God are bound to come into conflict. In Ephesians 6:12, you get the nature of the conflict. They are to stand. "Having done all to stand". The saints are to be clothed in the armour of God. When Christ comes He will be clothed in the same armour.

Rem. In order to stand it must be in the strength of the Lord, in the power of His might.

Rem. In Matthew 16 the Lord says, "Upon this rock I will build my church", and this passage we

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have before us says, "The church of the living God".

J.P. That gives force to what follows "Confessedly the mystery of piety is great"; so great that God established that on which it could repose, and which was competent to maintain it here; that is, the house of God.

Ques. Why do you say conflict is in connection with the house?

J.T. Because I think the house involved the destruction of the world-system. It was another system. The thing to get hold of is another system; that is, another world. If God proposes to bring in another world, this one has to go.

J.P. I know we would hardly like to confess it, but the difficulties we have when things of this kind are brought before us, arise from our being largely formed by the present state of things amongst God's people. This makes it difficult to apprehend the true character of the house of God as it was first set up.

To-day we see Christians mixed up with this present world-system, but we can plainly see from Scripture the way any of us can get set right. The order of this is indicated in 1 Peter 2brought to salvation, having tasted that the Lord is good; then you come to Christ, the Living Stone, and as a consequence of coming to Him we are being built up a spiritual house.

Here we are in a state of things contrary to God, which exists and prevails all about us, and the great point is to be in the light of the things which were established at the beginning, and to be exercised by them, so that they may be true of us; and then we shall be able, and only then, to come out in suitable conduct. In spite of all that we call ruin and failure, it is wonderfully encouraging to know that God has not changed.

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J.T. Oh, no! I think where the various institutions in Christendom miss it is, that they practically say they can improve upon God's plan, God's system; all kinds of innovations have been introduced; and what this means virtually is, that God's plan was defective. He has His own means to promulgate the truth, and He is not going to deviate from it. If things are such that you cannot act in accordance with the Lord, the best thing is not to act at all -- wait on Him.

J.P. It is not for man to come in and dictate how anybody should behave in His house: God is the Dictator.

J.T. Yes, God is the Dictator. If the house is God's, God rules. He must have His own way in it.

Ques. Is it not a great encouragement to know that the house is intact?

J.T. In a certain sense it is intact. It is so in God's mind, and the vital elements are still here, so that it may be realised practically.

Rem. I suppose we have had something of the true thought of the house here this morning in respect to the gospel.

J.T. I do not feel we can say much about the house now. We can see what was at the beginning, but I doubt if there is anything of it to see now.

We know that God's mind is always the same, and it is a great encouragement to know that God is able to bring His purposes to pass. The foundation of God stands sure; that means His ability to effectuate His purposes in spite of the failure of the church.

W.H.F. You would say the house still exists?

J.T. The house certainly exists; in spite of the failure it exists here in virtue of the presence of the Spirit in the saints, but it is not apparent, and will not be until it comes out as the heavenly city. It is not only that it exists in the mind of God, but it still remains actually down here; otherwise there is

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no vital Christianity at all. But it has disappeared as a public witness.

Consequent upon the failure of the church, all turns on Christ, the faithful and true Witness. In our relations towards one another, we are governed by the order originally established in the house; but all thought of public testimony is now dependent on the coming of the Lord.

If I meet a few Christians walking in the light of the house of God as set up at the beginning; I value them greatly; I know God has put them there for my good.

Rem. If you find a believer you make the most of him, and conduct yourself in the light of the house -- the assembly of God.

W.H.F. We come to 2 Timothy now regarding the condition of things: it is now a question of departing from iniquity, and following righteousness, faith, love, and peace, with those that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

Ques. Would you say, notwithstanding all the breakdown and failure that has come in, it is the privilege of every true believer to walk in the light of what the assembly was at the beginning?

J.T. Yes. Our conduct ought to be based on the truth of the house of God.

W.H.F. Unless you get in your soul the reality of what things were at the start, I do not see how you can conduct yourself according to God now, in view of the present state of things around you.

It seems to me the thought for us is to find out where we are, in the midst of the confusion that has come in, so that we may be able to stand for Christ in it all; and 2 Timothy, to my mind, gives us real instruction as to it. "Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity"; then let him "follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart". 2 Timothy 2:19,22.

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I think that is really what would be before the true heart at the present moment. Everything, as far as man's responsibility is concerned, is gone, and now everything depends on the Lord.

J.T. Yes, one can speak with the utmost confidence of Christ, and I have no doubt that is what the foundation of God means. The foundation of God stands sure; He has ability to bring to pass His purposes. You cannot speak of the church as seen publicly now.

J.P. I think it wonderful to see in that way the difference between the first and second epistles to Timothy. In the first we are manifestly in the light, presence, beauty, and glory of all God established down here at the beginning. In the opening verses of the first epistle Paul is an apostle according to the commandment of God, our Saviour. In the second epistle his apostleship is connected with the promise of life in Christ Jesus; in the light of what is established in Christ Jesus.

J.T. Yes, you can speak with the utmost confidence of Christ; you can depend on Christ, for He will stand by you. You get a wonderful account in chapter 4 of how He stood by the apostle. In the days of 1 Timothy you might have had some confidence in the church: there it is said to be the pillar and base of the truth; but now you can only rely upon Christ.

J.P. I think we have lived to see what you have spoken of: what we have lived to see is that if Christ is ministered, if Christ is set before His beloved people, God will put the seal of His approval upon that, and there will be an answer to it in the souls of the saints. That is what we need now.

J.T. The thing to see is what comes out in 2 Timothy. The apostle speaks of one and another that had forsaken him; he does not speak that way in the first epistle. I think the saints in Ephesus

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stood by Paul to the utmost when he stood for the testimony in Asia Minor, but in the second epistle he has to say that all forsook him. He goes on to name several who had forsaken him, but then he says, "The Lord stood with me". 2 Timothy 4:17. There is nothing that we can trust now, but we can trust the Lord.

J.P. The moral courage of the apostle in the second epistle is simply wonderful -- it is marvellous.

J.T. Paul could say, "The Lord stood with me, and strengthened me; ... and I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion" 2 Timothy 4:17; and then he says, "He shall deliver me". 2 Timothy 4:18. You need not be afraid if you are standing. It is a wonderful encouragement to know that if you are standing for what is right, that is all that is necessary -- you are sure of the Lord's support.

Rem. In that way we can live in the good of what the house was.

J.T. You have the Lord, and the Lord put the house there to protect His people.

Ques. Will you please say a word on the church as we get it in Ephesians 5:25: "Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it"?

J.T. I think that is the church according to what it will be in the future, the bride. There you come to very different ground. It is not the church as that by which God is made known down here; but the church in relation to Christ the object of His affection. What gives rise to that passage is the relation of husband and wife and then the apostle says, "This is a great mystery; but I speak concerning Christ and the church". Ephesians 5:32.

Ques. In one of your remarks you used the word ruin. Will you kindly tell us what the ruin is?

J.T. It would not be an easy matter to define the ruin, because it is so extensive. I think the building as committed into man's hand is completely ruined; the roof is off, the walls are down

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and, so to speak, you could not locate a single room in the house, as far as I can see; but the moral aspect is what ought to affect us, viz., what Jezebel expresses. That is the most prominent feature. There is great grief expressed amongst us about divisions, etc. Of course they are grievous things, but nothing to be compared with what it is to Christ to have that woman, Jezebel, in the house, as it were. The Lord says, "Thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess", Revelation 2:20, and then He goes on to expose her character. That is what affects the Lord more than anything.

R.S.S. What is set forth by Jezebel?

J.T. I think it is Rome; the principles of Roman Catholicism. She teaches spiritual fornication and idolatry, and poses as related to Christ. What must He feel about that?

J.P. I am sure we would feel it more if we were more in accord with Christ.

R.S.S. How does that morally affect those who may be spoken of as Christians?

J.T. I think the principle of it is pervading things all around pretty much, and I feel we ought to be sensitive as to it, and we are not free from it; we are responsible; we are connected with it publicly, Every right-minded child in a family would feel the scandal of the mother's unfaithfulness just as much as the husband. It is a terrible thing; we do not take in the largeness of the situation, as to how it affects Christ.

R.S.S. Every true Christian would prove by his conduct that he is in sympathy with Christ, by standing apart from it.

J.T. For instance, Mary of Bethany; she stands out as one who sympathised with Christ when all were against Him. The Lord greatly valued her sympathy. She anointed His head for burial, and He says, "There shall also this ... be told for a

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memorial of her". Matthew 26:13. I think He would greatly value the sympathy of our hearts in a day like this, when that terrible woman, Jezebel, poses in that which claims to be His, and to which He stands related publicly, as part of the professing church which bears His name.

Ques. Would you say there is a difference between a disciple and a believer?

J.T. I think there is. Discipleship involves the circumstances of the Master.

Ques. Would you say, coming to Christ as living stones would be coming to Him in the power of His resurrection, in the power of the Spirit?

J.T. I think in the power of the Spirit is the only way you can come to Christ as the Living Stone.

R.S.S. Is there not the thought of association in the living stones?

J.T. I think so, and thus that leads on to what you might call proper Christian privilege, but the thought of stones as we have had it before us, is that in coming to Christ we are rejected here -- have no place here, and the whole power of Satan is against us. If you wish to join Christ, you must face all that.

J.P. You would encourage everyone to seek to reach Him.

J.T. Oh, yes; He is available, and God is still building. It is this which brings out the kindness and longsuffering of God. God goes on building, however people may discredit what He is doing. He is building in view of the future, and even if they do not appreciate it, the long-suffering of God comes out. God is still waiting patiently.

J.P. In that way there is abundant encouragement for us.

J.T. Peter's epistle speaks of how the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah. His long-suffering is salvation.

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SONSHIP AND SERVICE

Exodus 4:21 - 23; Matthew 2:13 - 15; Matthew 3:16 - 17; Hebrews 9:11 - 14

I would like to say a word to you about sonship as connected with service. I think if you will take up the Scriptures you will discover that the service of God is based on sonship. I suppose every Christian would be interested in regard to service. When I speak about Christians I speak about those who love God. I should think every such person would be interested as to the service of God; not that such an one would care about being conspicuous. It is a very poor thing to desire to be conspicuous; foreign to the true thought of service. The true servant has one object -- God -- and the Object is conspicuous, not the service. If God has taken us up, it is with the end in view that we should serve Him in the liberty which His love produces in our hearts. God desires to be served. If it is God's service, it must be the outcome of His nature, and the effect of it is that He shines out for the good and blessing of man and the universe. I hope to be able to enlarge upon that later on, but for the moment I wish to engage your hearts with the desire on the part of God that He might be served.

I think, as I said before, that if God has taken us up, it is that we should be here for Him. There can be no question about that. One is impressed with the sense of how little souls are affected by God's purpose as to His people. How many have nothing before them but their own advantage in this world; and they are managing their affairs with this end in view. But the end of such a course is not really to their advantage; on the contrary it will be greatly to their disadvantage. The fact is that we are but poor judges as to what is advantageous to us. God is by

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far the best Judge, and we are infinitely safer in leaving our affairs in His hands than in attempting to manage them ourselves. I can say that I have discovered God to be far more capable of looking after my interests than I am, so I have given it up. I only dwell on this for a moment, and I do so because I see how saints are being diverted from God's intention as to His people, by the desire to establish themselves in circumstances of ease and comfort in this world. It may seem that you are missing opportunities, and suffering loss, in committing your affairs into divine hands, but it is not so really; if you want to be on true vantage ground, leave yourself in the hands of God. God is by far the best Judge as to what is for your blessing, and you can have no question but that He will do the very best for you indeed, He has done His best for you. Did you ever consider what God's best is? I think it is wonderful to contemplate what God's best is: what He has done for His people. He has given Christ for His people, and not only that, but He has established down here in the Christian circle that which is for your protection, comfort, and enjoyment. God has made provision for you; He has had wonderful forethought, and done His very best. Hence what anxiety need you have in regard to minor matters? If it is a question of things relative to this life, I have no anxiety at all; it is a simple question of leaving oneself in the hands of God. As I said before, God has given Christ for you. That is the expression of His love. What else has He done? God has gone to great pains for your good. He has come down here in Christ, and has broken the power of Satan, and He has set up here a kingdom, and has built a house for us. If God has done all that for me, He certainly will provide me with all I require, and hence I am perfectly well off in His hands.

I want to return to the thought of service. In going back to Exodus 4 you get the thought of it,

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and I think what comes out in that passage gives you the clue to what was in the mind of God; and if it was God's thought in regard to Israel it was His thought also as to Christians. You may rely upon that. God did not get service from Israel after the flesh; they were all as good as dead, and as a matter of fact the carcases of nearly all of them fell in the wilderness. So what was written of them really refers to us at the present time. In the future in connection with Christ risen, they too will come into what they could not really have as men in the flesh. My thought in referring to the passage before us was to show the divine idea in taking up Israel. I think God went to a good deal of pains in order to say a word to Israel. I refer to His dealings with Moses. One can scarcely refer to Moses without the greatest encouragement. God had been preparing for a good while, so to say, prior to the fourth of Exodus. He had taken Moses into the backside of the desert in order to make him a fit vessel to convey His thoughts to His people and to Pharaoh, and in fitting him for this, God set aside all that in which he might have trusted as in the flesh. It is very marked how much is said of Moses' rod. We are told in Scripture that Moses was "mighty in words and in deeds". Acts 7:22. God took no account of either. When, after forty years of discipline, God proposes to send him into Egypt, Moses declares he could not speak. What had become of his mighty words? He seems to have forgotten them, and the Lord did not remind him of them. He says to Moses, "What is that in thine hand?" Exodus 4:2. What had he in his hand? He had a rod. I do not know what kind of a rod it was, or where he got it. I do not believe he took it out of Egypt; no doubt he got it in the wilderness. "What is that in thine hand?" the Lord says. He did not say anything about the mighty words or deeds. I think the rod was very commonplace, but it was what

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Moses had. It did not represent the "wisdom of the Egyptians" nor the prowess of Moses in Egypt; I think it represented what he had learned in the wilderness. In the Lord's service it was the instrument of his power. As we have seen, God had been preparing His servant, and now he is sent to Pharaoh with this wonderful message: "Let my son go, that he may serve me". Exodus 4:23. God would be served, and that applies to you and to me. I think the position of the children of Israel in Egypt typifies the people of God who are in the world-system at the present time. What were they doing in Egypt? They were doing what a great many Christians are doing today. You say, What are Christians doing? I will tell you what the majority are doing -- building up the world-system. Is that serving? Everybody is active -- everybody is working -- but it is not the service of God. I fancy the children of Israel were better workmen, and worked harder than the Egyptians; but what were they doing? Building cities for Pharaoh -- building up Pharaoh's kingdom -- the world-system. They were building store-cities for Pharaoh, and we are told the names of the cities. I would not at all doubt that you could find relics of the work of the children of Israel in Egypt today. They were building up the world-system. I say that is what you are doing if you are in the world. If you are mixed up with this world you are a servant of the devil, building up his system. Do you not believe it? What do you think has made the world of the twentieth century? The world of our day is the product of so-called Christians. The most conspicuous pyramids and store-houses, as it were, have been built by them. That is what Christianity has come to. What is it? The work of slavery. What has Christendom come to? Slavery to the devil. Nobody can deny it. The most prominent features of the present world-system, the most salient

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points, have been built up by so-called Christians. It is their shame, still it cannot be denied Do you think that is the service God intended for His people? Did God take His people out of Egypt to build up the world-system? No, He intended to deliver them from the world, and to build up a system of His own. The tabernacle indicated that this was what was in His mind. It set forth God's system, and those who should serve in connection with it were the priests. God would be served. Pharoah would be served, and the children of Israel were capital servants for him. So Satan uses Christians now. Look at the world they have built up. Did you ever know of such a world as we have today? And the name of Christ is upon it. There has never been such a world as they have got now. Give Satan heaven, the earth, and humanity, and see what he would do with them. That is what comes out in Genesis 40. Men did not like to retain God in their knowledge and so made room for the devil. Satan captured man, and in the sphere designed for man, he would establish a system which would be marked by lawlessness and violence. I think Satan set himself to capture everything set up of God down here, and he has succeeded but too well. Now he has the church, and he has effected more with it than with anything he has had previously. See what workmen Christians make! Pharaoh could say, as it were, Look at my workmen, descendants of Abraham; heirs of the land of promise! Those were the workmen Pharaoh had. The descendants of Abraham were the workmen of Pharaoh! That is what the church has come to. The church has become a slave in the hands of the devil. He is not likely to be inactive with such workmen at his command: men enlightened by the gospel and the Scriptures. With such men he is building up the world-system. That is the situation at the present time.

Now, what would God do? That is what we are

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most concerned about. There is plenty of evidence of what Satan can do. The world is evidence of that, and the church has come into his hands. I have no doubt after clever manoeuvring he succeeded, as it were, in purchasing the church, for it was sold in the public market. Pharaoh represents Satan, who seeks the best slaves obtainable, and he accounts Christians to be these. When he got the church he got the very best slave he ever had. It is a most serious consideration. Would that our eyes were open to see how things are!

But what I want to come to is this -- I should like to engage you with what God would do. Even if Satan is building, God is building too. When He took Israel out of Egypt, He intended to establish a system of His own, and I think service stands in this connection. He says, "Let my son go, that he may serve me". Exodus 4:23. Did your heart ever respond to that? Let me put it to you here tonight. Did your heart ever respond to the desire of God to be served? Any enlightened Israelite would respond to the message Moses brought, that it had pleased Jehovah to call Israel His son. What a message that was! It does not say the message was sent to the people, but Moses undoubtedly told them about it. I think Moses would tell them all he could, and he would tell them what Jehovah had said. Jehovah said, as it were, You are to be My sons, and would not any true Israelite say, What a wonderful thought on the part of God, that we should be His sons! What a desire such a message would produce in the Israelites to be extricated from Egypt! The application is most direct -- it has a present application to us: that is, God would speak to your heart and mine; and He says of you, as it were, "Let my son go, that he may serve me". Exodus 4:23. God would not be served by the people in Egypt. There are those who say, Can I not serve the Lord here? We can serve the Lord anywhere.

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I answer, Why did the Lord not leave the children of Israel in Egypt? Why did He not enlighten them by Moses, and let them stay there, in order that they might enlighten the Egyptians? That would be a very plausible argument. What was the need of going to all that trouble? Why not enlighten the children of Israel in Egypt through Moses, and then leave them there to enlighten the Egyptians? God never intended to make a slave an evangelist: a slave cannot be an evangelist. If you are to convey glad tidings from God, you must be a free man. The message is too great to entrust to a slave. God thinks too much of the glad tidings to entrust them to a slave. They are too magnificent. The gospel is the grandest thing God has ever presented. You cannot overestimate the gospel, and the more you understand it, the more you will see that the Son only could be the Bearer of it to man. If great men of the world have great things to undertake, they take up great people to perform them. For instance, the emperor of Japan recently sent an envoy to this country; he had an errand of importance, and he sent a man of importance to accomplish it. God accounts the gospel to be of very great importance, hence the heralds of it must be great: they must be free men.

Now, I have anticipated. My thought was to show that God would not be served in Egypt. As I said before, it would have been a very plausible argument to say the Egyptians needed enlightenment: how can you do better than to stay where you are? Is that not just what people are saying today? They say, Are we going to leave them in the dark? Ah, you can never enlighten people if you stay where they are. The world-system is doomed, and if you are in it, the best service you can render to others there is to abandon it. You may talk about enlightening it, but the whole system is doomed. The deliverance of

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God's people from Egypt really meant the destruction of Egypt, You can neither serve God nor those in the world while you are in the world. You say that is strong language, but it is the teaching of Scripture. "Let my son go, that he may serve me". Exodus 4:23. In order to serve God they must leave Egypt. Egypt is the world. You may say that Egypt was heathendom. But Egypt is the world of the flesh; it is Satan's world. It makes but little difference what name you put upon the world, whether Egypt or Babylon, it is all built up by men energised by Satan, and if you are mixed up with it you cannot serve God. If you are in the world-system you are a slave to Satan. You can adorn Satan's system: you make it attractive, and he will endeavour to hold you in his net. It is a terrible net, so constructed as to catch and hold people. Satan has been studying humanity for a long time, and has studied Christians, and I think he has studied them in such a way as to enthrall them and make them his slaves.

Now, if God would be served, He declares that He must have His people out of Egypt. I believe God's thought was to bring Israel out so as to have them all to Himself. He would have a people of His own. He would make kings and priests of them, and bring them into His own land, where they would serve Jehovah: serve Him in love, serve Him in His own blessed sphere. But they never really served Him, and it is just because of that I have read the passages in Matthew.

Every Christian must be interested in having his attention called to Christ, because it is only in Him that we see every divine thought realised. God had burst the bands, and liberated His people: had borne them upon eagle's wings and brought them to Himself. Do you know what that means? Borne on eagle's wings to God. I fear many do not prize being with God. The children of Israel did not care very much

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about it: they were continually wanting to return to Egypt, which meant returning to bondage. These verses in Matthew 2 show that we get the true service of God in Christ. The whole history of the children of Israel is taken up in Christ. He went down into Egypt in order to take up the whole history of the children of Israel in His Person, as it is said, "Out of Egypt have I called my son". Matthew 2:15. The Lord Jesus went down into Egypt, but He would come out of it, in order to set before the universe what the service of God really is. You can never understand sonship until you see it in Christ. Becoming Man, He takes the place of Son, but the Lord did not begin His service until He was publicly acknowledged as Son. I think that is the divine order. God's thought about the children of Israel was that they were to serve Him, but not until they were in liberty. Now when you come to Christ, He does not begin His service until He is publicly acknowledged as Son. In the end of Matthew 3 He comes up out of the water, and the Father declares, "This is my beloved Son". Matthew 3:17. Now God has reached His thought. He did not say Israel was His beloved son: He did not open the heavens on the children of Israel, not even upon the banks of the Red Sea. That was only a figure. If you want to get the true idea of sonship, you must see it in Christ. He comes up out of the water: He and the Father had been alone; I think they had been in privacy prior to that, and the Lord was perfectly delightful to the Father, even as secluded and out of sight in this world. But now the Father would proclaim Him publicly in the presence of all. He would open the heavens, and proclaim, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I have found my delight". Now you get service. There never really was service prior to Christ, properly, because there never was a Son before. Sonship began with Christ, and you never really get service, according to God, until

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Christ appears. I say, when Christ appears, and is proclaimed as Son, then I think you can look for service.

Satan had the earth and humanity, and he performed his acts of lawlessness: but Christ was to have these. In Matthew 11 you will recall, when the Lord was rejected, when refused by all here, He looks up to heaven, and says, "I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth". Matthew 11:25. Look at that picture, and contrast it with Genesis 11. There you have the earth and humanity under satanic power. Did God find any pleasure in what was going on there? Work was going on, unquestionably, great energy, but Satan was behind the energy. Do you know what the building of the tower of Babel was? I think it was what would be called in statesmanship a hostile demonstration. It was scarcely an overt act of war; it was more, as I said, a hostile demonstration. For instance, take Great Britain and Russia: their policies are known to be antagonistic one to the other. We will suppose that Russia sets up a military establishment at the frontier of India, what would be Great Britain's interpretation of this? Great Britain would regard it as a hostile demonstration, and would do everything in her power to nullify its effect. Would not God act in that way? I think He did. He confounded their language, separated the nations, and scattered them upon the earth. The building of Babel was really hostile to God. The builders were setting up a city and a tower in defiance of God. They said, as it were, Let us make us a name without God. That is what it really meant. Now look at Christ! He looks up to heaven; He does not speak about making a name: He did not come to earth to make a name for Himself, He did not even come in His own name. Nobody had a better right: nobody could have established a name like Christ, but He did not claim a name. He was

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here in the Father's name. He says, "I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth". Matthew 11:25. The Father owns heaven and earth, and He must be served. Heaven and earth are the sphere of His service. Now in Christ He has the Servant. He called Abraham out, and gave him Canaan, and in this way indicated His right to heaven and earth, but in that day He had not the Servant. When you come to the Gospel of Matthew you get the Servant. Who is the Servant? The Son -- a free Man -- One who can come down from heaven and go up to heaven. That is a free man. You do not allow your servant to go into the drawing-room when she pleases: she cannot go up to the top of the house and come down when she pleases. But suppose you have a son: he can go anywhere. The son belongs to the house, his place is in the house, he abides in the house. He is there by birthright, he is your son. The Son came down from heaven, and He can go up to heaven. He is a free Man. The same thing holds good in regard to Jerusalem above. She can go anywhere in the house: she is a free woman. She goes up, and comes down.

The Lord says, "I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth". Matthew 11:25. There is the sphere -- it belongs to the Father. That is the sphere of service -- an enormous sphere. Suppose that sphere is filled with what pollutes, or with thieves and robbers, what do you think the Servant is going to do? He must remove them; He must clear the scene. The Son will clear and purify the scene. The scene is heaven and earth, and to be the scene of divine service it must be a purified scene. The Lord Jesus Christ will make it perfectly suitable as the scene for the public display of all that God is. Do you think the world as it stands is suitable for the public display of God? It is polluted. The Lamb of God takes away the sin of the world; but what else? He

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baptises by the Holy Ghost -- He brings in the good. That is the idea of service.

Christ says, "I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes". Matthew 11:25. There is the Father on high, the Son upon the earth, and the babes. The babes are to be His associates in this wonderful service. What will the Lord do? What would you expect Him to do? He will bring these babes into sonship, and so constitute them eligible for the service of God. That is what He has done. If you look further in the Gospel of Matthew you will find this illustrated. In chapter 17 the Jews say to Peter, "Doth not your master pay tribute?" Matthew 17:24. Peter replies, in effect, Certainly, my Master is a good Jew. The Lord anticipated Peter, and when he came into the house, said to him, "What dost thou think, Simon? The kings of the earth, from whom do they receive custom or tribute from their own sons or from strangers?" Peter answers Him, "From strangers". Jesus says to him, "Then are the sons free. But that we may not be an offence to them, go to the sea and cast a hook and take the first fish that comes up, and when thou hast opened its mouth thou wilt find a stater; take that, and give it to them for me and thee". Matthew 17:25 - 27.

There, then, were the Son and the sons. Peter represented the sons. They are free: they belong to the house. They are sons of the owner of the temple. The tribute-money was for the temple, but the Lord was the Son of God, and God owned the temple. Why pay tribute to the Father's house? The sons are free. The Lord says to Peter, "Me and thee". Peter was a son as well: the Lord associated him with Himself in sonship.

The Lord would bring us all into the good of sonship. It would be the Lord's present thought to deliver us from everything that holds us. There are

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a great many things that hold people: things by which the devil holds people for his service, for establishing and building up his own system. Such are slaves. The Lord would use us in connection with the Father's system, in connection with building up that which God has made known.

I feel I have only put out an initial idea as to the great subject I ventured to bring before you, but I hope what I have said may serve to awaken your interest in it. The passage I read from Hebrews connects the service of God directly with Christians. Our consciences are purged from dead works to worship (or serve) the living God. The allusion is to service carried on in the tabernacle. The tabernacle foreshadowed that with which service is properly connected -- the blessed system revealed in Christ, in which God is known and approached.

May the Lord open our hearts to the understanding of it. It is wonderful to see what is in the heart of God for us. He says, "Let my son go, that he may serve me". Exodus 4:23.

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ASSOCIATION WITH CHRIST IN THE ASSEMBLY AS RISEN WITH HIM, PRESENT CHRISTIAN PRIVILEGE

Colossians 2:9 - 23; 3: 1 - 4

R.S.S. At the close of our meeting yesterday afternoon, the question was raised as to whether the subject of the house of God and living stones did not also include the thought of association with Christ. Again, last night our brother, speaking of sonship, led us along pretty well in the same line, and I think we might have something this afternoon which would follow up these subjects.

There cannot be anything greater before us than what you were leading up to last night -- namely, the service of God in the way you spoke of it. Would you not say that it would indicate what might occupy us hereafter?

J.T. Yes, I think so. I have no doubt at all that the service of God will have application to the New Jerusalem.

J.P. It is in connection with the heavenly city you get the expression, "His servants shall serve him". Revelation 22:3.

J.T. Yes, I thought of that in Revelation 22. It says further, "And they shall see his face". I think it must be very evident that all this depends on the liberty in which the saints are with God. I think the heavenly city sets forth the idea of sonship it is in liberty.

R.S.S. "Jerusalem which is above is free". Galatians 4:26.

J.P. I suppose Revelation 22 presents the thing in perfection. It is in contrast to what marks Christendom now.

J.T. Yes. Historically you can see how it came to pass. The Lord began divine service on the

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ground of sonship, but I think He intended to associate others with Him in the service, and for that they required to be liberated -- brought consciously into sonship. I think that came to pass historically in the church. The Lord set the disciples free: He brought them on to His own platform before the Father, and gave them the Spirit; then they went forth in service. I think that was the order.

J.P. Service is in view in Hebrews from the very beginning. It is there you get, "It became him for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory", etc. Hebrews 2:10.

R.S.S. When you speak of service, is it service Godward that is in your mind?

J.T. Pretty much, only the term is a very large one. It would involve all that God would have effected. As to Israel, God said, "Let my son go that he may serve me". Exodus 4:23. No doubt God had in mind to effect great things through Israel, but their service to Him was to be on the ground of their being liberated from Egypt and brought to Himself.

J.P. There is a marvellous thought in what we have before us. God would not shut Himself up to Himself, but has embraced man in His wonderful thoughts. Even with regard to Israel; Israel had the first place with God as to the earth, but His purpose embraced many others.

J.T. Yes, I think He intended to set up Israel in the midst of a system of nations, but Israel was to have the place of sonship with God; and I think you can understand how the other nations would come into the benefit of the favour in which Israel would be with God. God intended to establish a system of His own (I think that is clear enough), and in order to do that He must have His people. He would establish a system of His own, with Israel as the centre of it, but Israel was first to be in liberty with

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God, so He says, "Let my son go that he may serve me". Exodus 4:23.

J.P. Thus the idea of service becomes very wide, because it really embraces all that God had before Him; all that He is going to effect and bring to pass.

J.T. Yes, and in order to have His people as the instruments through which to bring it to pass, they must be liberated. What God meant to do, as I said, was to establish Israel as the centre of a system of nations and they were to be in liberty with Him; to be, indeed the expression of His power, but, as we know, they failed in all this, so all has to be taken up in Christ. The Lord takes up the whole history of Israel in His own Person; but still, even as to Israel, He will bring them into sonship in resurrection. Israel will be brought into resurrection.

Ques. Does sonship embrace every family that God has before Him?

J.T. In the Father's house there will be many families. I think that in a sense the Spirit of sonship will pervade all, but the church, of course, will ever enjoy its own distinctive place in heavenly glory in association with Christ.

J.P. Would that be indicated by "every family in the heavens and on earth is named" of the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ? Ephesians 3:14,15.

J.T. Exactly. God does not take pleasure in slaves; I think all the house will be made free by the Spirit of sonship.

J.P. The remark you made a moment ago is very important for us; that is, that service really depends upon the liberty we are in with God.

J.T. Yes, and that introduces a most important consideration: the church was set up in liberty -- in sonship -- and it was in that way adequate to set forth God.

J.P. That is rather striking. The effort of the enemy was to divert the saints from this great privilege,

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as in the case of the Galatians. The Galatians had failed to stand fast in the liberty wherewith Christ had set them free.

J.T. The service of God must be relegated to the future unless sonship has a present application. The display will be future, but we have the Spirit of sonship now. The service of God was consequent on the descent of the Holy Spirit.

J.P. Do you mean to say that sonship has a present application?

J.T. Unquestionably. If it has no present application there is no divine service, but God is not going to be deprived of His service. God is going to be served, and that is the idea even with regard to Israel in "Let my son go that he may serve me". Exodus 4:23. There must be divine service.

J.P. Is there anything less than sonship in Christianity, I mean, from God's side? Does it not say, "Ye are all God's sons by faith in Christ Jesus"? Galatians 3:26.

J.T. Every Christian is a son. Every single person that belongs to God in this age is a son. That must be so, for the simple reason that they live in the age of sonship the time appointed of the Father.

J.P. Why do you say the age of sonship? You seem to make it a question of time.

J.T. It is a question of time, according to Galatians: we read there, "The period fixed by the father". Galatians 4:2.

J.P. Galatians does make it a question of time.

J.T. It certainly was no question of the state in Galatia.

J.P. It was not a question of attainment, but a question of the time in which they lived. They lived in the age of sonship. It was the Spirit's day. "Ye are all God's sons by faith in Christ Jesus". Galatians 3:26.

W.H.F. So we are still living in the age of sonship; and if the Spirit could apply sonship to the saints at Galatia, He can apply it to us now; and I am sure

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He is seeking to do so. It is exceedingly encouraging.

J.T. That is the great comfort for us now. It is not the time for display: the display of sonship is unquestionably future, but title has come in already. The title to sonship was given when Christ was raised from the dead. The Lord says then, "I ascend to my Father, and your Father", etc. John 20:17.

Rem. The apostle says to the Galatians, "When the fulness of the time was come". Galatians 4:4.

J.T. Yes. "When the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, come of woman, come under law, that he might redeem those under law, that we might receive sonship. But because ye are sons" (not because ye are going to be sons, but because ye are sons) "God has sent out the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, Abba, Father". Galatians 4:4 - 6.

Ques. What would you say if I should tell you that I am a son?

J.T. I should say you were telling the truth. That is what Christians need to know, because, practically, Christianity has fallen into slavery.

Ques. Would you not say all Christians are sons from God's side?

J.T. It is simply a statement of a fact. Whether you know it or not, you are a son.

Ques. It is not a question of state?

J.T. No.

Rem. The Galatians were in a bad state, but they were sons.

J.P. That is what the apostle impresses on them. When the light of that breaks in on souls it will have a great effect on their state.

J.T. That is exactly the point: what Christians at the present time need to know is that they are sons, and the knowledge of that in their souls would set them free.

Ques. Then you would not connect sonship with liberty, but liberty with sonship?

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J.T. I would connect liberty with sonship: sonship brings liberty to pass. You go in at the front door, as it were, and enjoy all the liberties of the house, and are perfectly free in doing this.

Rem. I suppose it was a very necessary point with the Israelites -- they must be liberated first?

J.T. They must be extricated from Egypt. "Let my son go", Jehovah said. They could not serve Him in Egypt.

J.P. I suppose the point in the Spirit of God setting before those Galatian saints the fact of sonship, was really to extricate them, for the apostle exhorts them to stand fast in their liberty, and not to be again entangled with the yoke of bondage.

R.S.S. When, and how do we become sons? Is it by the reception of the Spirit?

J.T. I think the title is there prior to the reception of the Spirit. That is the way Scripture puts it "Because ye are sons, God has sent out the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, Abba, Father". Galatians 4:6. I should not call anybody who has not the Spirit a son, because I do not know that he is the Lord's until he gets the Spirit.

J.P. Of course you could not. As you were saying last night, you see the beginning of it in Christ, the Son, becoming a Man, and now, in that Christ is risen, the time of sonship has come for us.

J.T. Yes, so when Christ rose from the dead, historically every one of the Lord's people were sons. Before that they were in the nursery. I do not think they knew much about it, but they were sons; they were in association with Christ. Directly the Lord rose from the dead the disciples come into view as His brethren: "Go to my brethren and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God". John 20:17.

J.P. In that way this would connect with Colossians.

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J.T. Yes, the resurrection is the basis of everything.

Rem. It was not the Galatians who fixed the period it was "the period fixed by the father". Galatians 4:2.

J.P. And that wonderful period fixed of the Father has come: all are sons now.

J.T. What hinges upon that is heirship. "... heir also through God". Galatians 4:7. A man comes into his estate at twenty-one; he is a minor prior to that. Though he be lord of all, he is not different from a servant.

Ques. Is that the reason the apostle could say, "Be as I am for I also am as ye"? Galatians 4:12.

J.T. He was not different from the Galatians on that point, although his state was very different. He was very different from them as a Christian.

Rem. You would say he was in the good of sonship, but as to his title, it was no clearer than theirs. They were just as much sons as he.

Ques. What place have the children?

J.T. The sons are all children. Children is a different thought from sonship. Every son is a child, but the idea of children is derivation; it brings in the thought of parentage: so in Galatians when Paul speaks about our mother, he does not say, Sons of Jerusalem above, but she is our mother, and we are her children; that is, we are derived from her.

Ques. Would you say the thought of children brings in responsibility, and that of sonship, privilege?

J.T. I would connect privilege with both. The thought of children is a question of parentage and derivation, so we are children of God because derived from God: we got our being from God.

J.P. Begotten of God through the gospel.

J.T. Sonship is our greatest privilege. You are entitled to all the privileges of the house: you can sit at the table with the head of the house, and talk

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to him, and he to you, as to a friend. So the apostle says, "Thou art no more a servant, but a son". Galatians 4:7.

J.T. In John 8 it is very clear. The Lord speaks about the servant, and says, "The servant abideth not in the house for ever, but the Son abideth ever". John 8:35.

Rem. I have noticed that the expression, child of God is never applied to the Lord Jesus, although we get, "This is my beloved Son", etc. Luke 9:35.

J.T. Just so. In Acts 4 you get the expression, in the authorised version, "Thy holy child, Jesus", (Acts 4:27) but it ought to be "servant".

Rem. In Matthew we read, "He took the young child and his mother". Matthew 2:21.

J.T. But that does not indicate child of God: that is according to what He was publicly, the child of Mary and Joseph: it does not say He was the child of God.

Ques. In John's epistle it speaks of children, young men, and fathers. In what sense does that come in?

J.T. Children there are babes. They are simply relative terms, and refer, I think, to experience. You begin as babes, and go on to young men, then fathers, but the term son would apply to each one. It is a question there of the different degrees of growth in the family, but all are sons.

Ques. Does not the word "sons" bring in God's purpose from the very outset?

J.T. Yes, God's thought was to have a company of people in liberty. He takes up human terms, and we have to get behind the terms to see what was in His mind. His thought was to have people in liberty of affection with Himself, and I think the way sonship is brought out in Galatians is very important, because we have all been captured. Christians have all, to some extent, been brought into slavery.

Ques. Would you say Hebrews was like Galatians? It speaks there of being babes, not of full age. Is that the same thought as we have here?

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J.P. No. In Hebrews it is not slavery it is a question of the senses: these had become stunted. It says, "Ye are become dull in hearing". Hebrews 5:11. I think it is important that there is nothing lower, nothing less, than sonship now.

J.T. That is a very important point for Christians. If I should go to any person I knew had the Holy Ghost, and say to him that he is a son, and it is his privilege to be free -- if he received it, it would have a very great effect upon him: it would liberate him.

Ques. When you say Christians are in bondage now, what do you mean?

J.T. I think they have got into Babylon morally. That is exactly what took place with Israel, actually. God liberated them from Egypt (that was the world in one aspect) and His thought was to bring them into His own land. Subsequently they were taken captive to Babylon, but God's thought was to have them in His own land. That is really what took place at the outset as to the assembly. The Lord brought His disciples into the land of promise -- God's land: into the sphere of divine affections: and He intended them to stay there, but instead of staying there, they went into Babylon. That is what has taken place in the history of the church.

Ques . What is the difference between Babylon and Egypt?

J.T. I think Egypt is the world in which the flesh lives and moves, and Babylon is the imperial system, bearing a religious character. The danger the people of God were exposed to after they came into the inheritance lay in the East. They were exposed to danger from the East, that is to say, from Babylon. Balaam came from that direction and Achan coveted the goodly Babylonish garment in Jericho.

Ques. What do you mean by imperialism?

J.T. I think when God set up Noah on the renewed

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earth, He gave him the light of government, and Satan seizing the thought, imitated it; so in Genesis 10, you get Nimrod, who established imperialism.

J.P. He was the first imperialist.

J.T. And Babylon was the continuation of Nimrod's kingdom. You can understand Babylon was the great system by which the enemy would endeavour to capture the people of God. You may depend upon it, it was a very great point with Satan to capture the children of Israel. They had been good servants to Pharaoh, but he would make them good servants in the East: he would use them to build up his system there. Babylon is the great power by which Satan has enslaved the people of God. It is a terrible system. According to Revelation 18 it trades in the bodies and souls of men. They are, as it were, sold at auction there.

Rem. That was a great thought on the part of Satan, but it was a far greater thought to capture the church.

J.T. What happened to Israel was really a foreshadowing of the history of the church.

Ques. Would you explain the meaning of "sold at auction"?

J.T. I think Satan offers certain things for your soul. He can use you. You would be a capital slave, and so he offers you the world. It may be the commercial, social, or religious world, but he offers you something in order to capture you.

Ques. It is something on the principle of his taking the Lord up in the wilderness, would you say?

J.T. Yes, if Satan could have captured Christ, look at the Servant he would have had. Of course you could not entertain the thought, but still he endeavoured to capture Him. Satan takes Christ up into an exceeding high mountain, and shows Him all the kingdoms of the world and the glory of them, and then tells Him if He will fall down and worship

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him they shall be His. Satan would have given all in his possession to capture the Lord.

Rem. Hezekiah showed the Babylonians all the treasures in his house, and by and by they took them.

J.T. Yes. I think the devil is a shrewd slave-master; he knows the people who will do him the best service.

Ques. Would you say Satan will bring up all kinds of possibilities to tempt Christians?

J.T. Yes, he would be greatly interested to find a place for you in his system: to find you work to do in the system he controls. He will give you plenty of work to do there. It amounts to slavery, and of the very worst kind.

Ques. What is the difference between the service we have been speaking of, and that which Satan wants to bring us into?

J.T. Well, what kind of service did the children of Israel do for Pharoah? Very irksome service. They were compelled to make bricks without straw. Very hard work. I think Satan's work is a very hard kind of work.

Ques. Is there any difference between the character of their service in Egypt and in Babylon?

J.T. I do not know that they did exactly the work of slaves in Babylon. I think they had a more exalted place there.

Ques. When you speak about Christians being in the Lord's service, what class of people have you before you; those who go out preaching the gospel, etc.?

J.T. No. In a comprehensive way the service of God is the activity of divine love toward God, toward one another, and toward all men.

Rem. I have always looked at it, in my mind, as those who were preaching, etc.

J.T. There is plenty of preaching, but not much service at the present time.

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Ques. Will you not say a little more about divine love being in activity?

J.T. I think that is the idea of service. God took account of the children of Israel in the wilderness to put them into His own land. He numbered every Israelite in order to give him a place in His own land. His land may be taken as a type of the assembly now. The Lord takes account of every believer, and gives him a place in His system. What does that mean? The Lord would have service, and it is the service of love; not like Satan's hard service, such as making bricks without straw. The Lord says, "My yoke is easy, and my burden is light". Matthew 11:30. "The perfect law of liberty" (James 2:12) -- that is what the Lord brings us into.

Ques. What did you say the service of God is?

J.T. The service of God must have relation to God -- that means love in activity, and it comes out in our conduct toward one another.

J.P. I will give you a very good scripture on service. The apostle in writing to the saints in one place says, "I will very gladly spend and be spent for you; though the more abundantly I love you, the less I be loved". 2 Corinthians 12:15.

J.T. Yes, that is the servant. He is no slave. He is acting there in the dignity of a son: that is to say he is like Christ. That was what marked Christ.

R.S.S. And I suppose it all flows from association with Christ. I imagine you get the very opposite of what we have just been hearing in the servant who said, "I knew thee that thou art an hard man reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed: and I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine". Matthew 25:24.

J.T. He took account of the Lord as if He were like Pharaoh.

R.S.S. Just so, and the very thing he says he knew he did not know.

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J.P. Does not the Lord give us a wonderful example in Himself, of one acting in divine love in regard to others, in John 13? Look at Him there: the Model Servant, the Example. He lays aside His garments, girds Himself with a linen towel, pours the water into the basin, kneels, and washes the disciples' feet, then turns to them and says, as it were, It is not that I am going to continue in this service: I am just giving you an example, that as I have done to you, you should do to one another.

J.T. He gave them the start, and they were to continue it right on to the very end. So in Galatians everything working by love was the thought. "By love serve one another". Galatians 5:13. I think that is the idea.

R.S.S. I suppose you get a type of the Lord in the Hebrew servant in Exodus 21, where he became a servant for ever, "I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free". Exodus 21:5. His ear is bored, and He becomes a servant for ever.

J.T. The Lord had been alone in service prior to this. He had been serving, but had been alone in it, and now He would associate others with Himself in the service.

Rem. In connection with service, I often think of what the Lord said to Peter regarding it. Peter took the ground of loving the Lord the most, and in the end of John's gospel the Lord puts before Peter that He had interests here. His sheep and lambs were here, and He would have Peter care for His people in this world. "Feed my lambs" and "Feed my sheep". John 21:15 & 17. I take it the service of God is connected with the Lord's people here.

J.T. Yes. Primarily the thought was that God was to be ministered to, and the priest was taken up in order that he might minister -- "That he may minister unto me in the priest's office". Exodus 28:1. That was the primary thought of service. First He has the people with Himself, then the tabernacle comes in

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then the priesthood. The service was to be carried out in the priesthood.

Rem. You get the thought of service in 1 Peter 2.

J.T. Yes. "As living stones are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God". 1 Peter 2:5. Then lower down in the chapter you have "a royal priesthood", to "shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light". 1 Peter 2:9. Worship is the highest order of service.

Ques. Would you connect the thought of sonship with priesthood?

J.T. Yes, you cannot be a priest unless you are a son.

Rem. You get that distinctly in Hebrews 7.

J.T. Christ, the Son, was constituted a Priest for ever.

Ques. Referring again to what the Lord said to Peter, is that not the basis upon which you can serve? He said, "Lovest thou me?" John 21:16. And when Peter said he did, then the Lord says, "Feed my lambs", and "Feed my sheep".

J.T. Yes. I should like to get the thought clearly as to what was in the mind of God: God would be served. It brings out what was in the mind and heart of God. He would be served by men, but then they must be free.

Rem. He would be served by those who are in association with Christ risen, as we get it in John 20.

J.T. God would bring them into His own land of freedom.

Rem. No bondage there.

J.T. They had been in bondage, but God would have them in His own blessed land, where there was no bondage. I like to think of God as bringing His people into His own land where there would be no bondage: where all would be of God, and that would be the basis of service. All service would go out from

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there. If Israel had entered into God's thought for them, they would have been a wonderful means of blessing to the nations. If it had been possible (we know it was not possible in the flesh), for them to enter into the thought of sonship with God, in the land of Canaan, what a means of blessing they would have been!

Ques. What did you say answers to the land now?

J.T. Association with Christ in the assembly.

J.P. In what sense are you speaking of it?

J.T. In the sense we have it here in Colossians. The saints are raised with Christ. "In whom also ye are circumcised" (Colossians 2:11) involves Gilgal. Gilgal is the end of the flesh in the circumcision of Christ. Then we are said to be raised with Him, through the faith of the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. Association must be on resurrection-ground.

Ques.. Then the land is open for any Christian?

J.T. Yes, if anybody cares for it, the land of Canaan is available.

Ques. You think you get Canaan in Colossians -- risen with Christ?

J.T. Risen with Christ is Canaan. I have no doubt God, as it were, gives us a taste of it without our actually being there, but you get the taste so that you might be there. That is the grapes of Eshcol.

Ques. I suppose you cannot possibly have sonship without resurrection?

J.T. No, that is the ground of sonship. It is in resurrection all the people of God become sons; it has reference to time, which was when Christ rose from the dead. Every one of the disciples, if they had affection for it, might then have joined Christ as risen. The power was not there until the Holy Ghost came, but the privilege was open to them.

Ques. Does that involve what the Lord said to

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Mary? "Touch me not, for I have not yet ascended". John 20:17.

J.T. What He meant was, that the relation in which He had stood to Mary had ceased: He must ascend to the Father and the Holy Ghost must come, and then things would be on an entirely new and different basis.

Rem. He does not associate Himself with them in that way until after He is risen.

J.T. He says, "Go to my brethren". John 20:17. That is after resurrection.

Rem There is another thought in connection with Christ's resurrection; it is not only association: it involves the service of God.

J.T. That comes out later. It is in the church divine service is continued. "To serve the living God", it says in Hebrews 9:14. God is not going to relegate His service to the future; He has not given up the thought of service. Israel did not answer to His thought of service. When Christ came, the service of God was taken up by Him, and it is to be carried on by the sons; that is, by Christians.

R.S.S. Is service Godward priestly, and manward Levitical?

J.T. In Peter both are connected with priesthood.

Ques. Would you say it is very poor after all He has done for me that I should not have a deep desire to be where He is?

J.T. Yes. His company is well worth having, I can assure you. What the Holy Ghost would do is to produce in us a desire to be with Him, to see His greatness, to see Him as He is in His own sphere.

Ques. Can worship be looked at as service?

J.T. It is the highest part of service. The word "service" is rendered "worship" in Hebrews 9 as J.N.D. gives it. In John 4, however, the word is different, and involves the highest and most intimate relations of Christians with the Father.

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Ques. Is the thought of worship that God gets a response to His affections?

J.T. Yes. God attaches value to the affections of men: He wishes men to serve Him in love, and that came to pass historically when Christ rose from the dead, and the Holy Ghost came down.

Rem. In John 12 they made the Lord a supper.

J.T. Just so. They made Him a supper, and that was consequent upon resurrection. Lazarus had been raised from the dead, and he sat at the table with the Lord. He is figurative of those who are risen.

J.P. I have been greatly struck with what Colossians 3 presents. There is no defect there. I think the beautiful climax is reached in verse 17. Leading up to that you get, "Let the word of the Christ dwell in you richly, in all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another, in psalms, hymns, spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to God". Colossians 3:16. It is a wonderful and beautiful climax, is it not?

J.T. Yes. It is wonderful that God in His love has brought His people into His own land. In Numbers 26 He takes account of every one of them, and they are all to have a place in God's land every one of them.

Ques. Would you say a little about your thought of God's land?

J.T. It is a question of being with Christ in His own sphere.

Ques. Where is Christ's sphere now?

J.P. On the other side of death.

J.T. His sphere is not in this world: in the commercial, social, or any other sphere of this world. The Lord has a sphere of His own, and this is realised in the assembly. He never intended to set up His system in connection with this world. He intended to have a sphere all His own, and He

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also intended to give every person belonging to Him a place in that sphere.

Rem. You said a moment ago that God brought the children of Israel out of Egypt in order to give them a place in His own land. The idea, I suppose, was that there was to be nothing to hinder, but everything to help in the service of God.

J.T. Yes, and in the sphere He brings us into everything is affected by what is of heaven, all is according to God there. The thought is marvellous, that the sons should be brought into that blessed sphere where all things are of God.

Rem. Getting there involved going through Jordan, and I do not think there was much taste for that. Even the grapes of Eshcol did not give much taste for it. The two and a half tribes preferred the land of Gilead.

Ques. Will you say something about Jordan? We know so little about it.

J.T. Jordan is the ending of life down here.

W.H.F. Is not Jordan privilege?

J.T. It is privilege in that it introduces you into Canaan.

Rem. It is the only way into Canaan.

W.H.F. You spoke of Canaan as typifying the assembly. Is it the assembly as viewed on the side of privilege?

J.T. Yes, as risen, according to this chapter. "In which ye have been also raised with him through faith of the working of God who raised him from among the dead". 1 Peter 1:21. You see the platform is the world to come properly. In this chapter resurrection is the platform. God is going to put everything on that basis, the ground of resurrection. Christians already can take that ground and in that way we get the land of Canaan now.

J.P. I suppose Colossians is the present privilege side of it?

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J.T. I think it is a question of privilege in Colossians. The Christian company is already entitled to take up the ground of resurrection: "In which ye have been also raised with him through faith of the working of God". 1 Peter 1:21. That is to say, on the principle of faith we can anticipate the coming age.

Every thought of God for man finds some answer in the assembly now. You will have difficulty until you see that. There is some answer in the assembly to every thought of God for man, whether service, the land, the kingdom, the city, or whatever it is.

Rem. Some years ago we used to talk of the assembly as being a certain meeting: we used to speak of the assembly at such and such a place.

J.T. I think you might speak of the assembly at New York or Chicago, meaning all the people of God in those cities. In that sense it is God's assembly, but to say God's assembly is restricted to a certain company meeting in those cities is not true. The assembly, from the point of view we are taking account of it this afternoon, is not the assembly in the wilderness, as in the epistle to the Corinthians, but the assembly viewed as risen with Christ. "In which ye have been also raised with him through faith of the working of God". 1 Peter 1:21. It is the assembly from the side of privilege. Christians now are entitled to take up the world to come.

Rem. John 20 is the divine pattern of the assembly viewed in that way.

Rem. Looking at the assembly in this way, it is a very wonderful thing in the mind of God.

J.T. And the way you get into it is by attraction to Christ. In the case of Israel, the ark went before, and they followed. Really the way we get into the good of the assembly now is by being attracted by the Ark, by Christ.

Rem. The Lord said in John 14 "I will not leave

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you orphans, I am coming to you". John 14:18. Is that indicated in this?

J.T. I think He meant to have a sphere down here all His own, what you might call His own land. God had taken up Canaan. He did not take up the Babylonish kingdom, nor Egypt. God did not take possession of Egypt: He took His people out of Egypt, and then left it in the hands of Pharoah. But he did take possession of Canaan: that was to be a sphere of His own. It was a small sphere comparatively, but a sphere God intended to call His own land, and He was to have His people there. In that sense it is a type of the assembly.

I have no doubt the thought of the Assembly is that Christ has a sphere down here which is all His own, and where every person belonging to Him has a place.

R.S.S. And you would say it is our privilege to be at liberty there, to be at home? I expect what we call a good meeting depends pretty largely on the saints really being at home with the Lord.

J.T. Yes. See what liberty there was at the beginning: one can see they were all free in the beginning of Acts. I think they all felt they were brought into an entirely new sphere, where they were perfectly free and at home. It was from that basis the service of God toward man was to go out. I think blessing was to extend from that sphere universally.

Ques. Would you say all Christians are included in the assembly?

J.T. Every single person belonging to Christ has a place in His assembly. He has a place there for everyone.

Rem. When the Lord delivered His people from Egypt He took them all out, but in deliverance from Babylon they did not all come out.

J.P. No, only a remnant was brought back. In a way that is what is going on now. You cannot look

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for much now: only a remnant is being delivered from the world system. The way this has come to pass is that the Lord has revived the truth, and by the truth people have been enabled to judge of things. They have been able to take account of things around them, and refuse what is not of God, and it is in that way we have been delivered. The Lord says, "Ye shall knew the truth, and the truth shall make you free", (John 8:32) and, "If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed". John 8:36.

Rem. It may be that some are feeble, not walking in the good of it.

J.T. It is a great thing to see that all Christians have a place there. God took account of every one of the Israelites in order to give them the inheritance.

Ques. Recovery now has reference to the assembly?

J.T. Unquestionably. If the Lord is active now He must be active in order to deliver His people from Babylon, and this came to pass by the revival of the truth of the church. There was a divine movement during the Reformation, but recovery is not seen there fully. Philadelphia answers to recovery.

J.P. If a man's wife and children are in distress or need, he would set to work to relieve them first. He would not go to his neighbours, but would begin with his wife and children. I believe the Lord acts in that way. While there are people in Christendom to be extricated, you may depend the Lord is active there.

Ques. You said a moment ago, "The truth shall make you free". What is truth there?

J.P. The truth is simply what is true. I know no better definition of truth than that.

Ques. Is the assembly for seven days in the week, or just for Sunday morning?

J.T. I think in the tabernacle there was to be continual service.

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Ques. Do you mean by that a Christian can live in the land -- over Jordan always?

J.T. No, but I think the service of God is maintained.

Ques. How is it maintained?

J.T. It is maintained by those who are in the good of the land.

Rem. You see that in Caleb and Joshua. They had reached the land, and tasted the fruit, and were able to go on the other forty years, knowing they would be brought into it.

Ques. You would not call your daily occupation the service of God?

J.T. Your daily employment could hardly be called the service of God. Service has to do with the tabernacle.

Rem. If I serve the saints I serve Him. I serve, as it were, in His name.

J.T. Quite so.

Ques. Service is in connection with the tabernacle in the wilderness then?

J.T. In a sense it is, but in order to serve God in the wilderness according to His pleasure, I must know what the land is. I have no doubt the epistle to the Ephesians gives the true thought of divine service. I would not undertake to prove it, but I have not a doubt in my mind that it is so. It must be so, I think.

Ques. What part of the epistle especially?

J.T. I take the epistle in a general way. In chapter 1 the saints are before God in love: in chapter 2 they are raised up and seated in the heavenlies: in chapter 4 they are in relation to one another in love and in chapter 6 the testimony is going out.

Ques. Is it not possible to serve the saints in a legal way?

J.T. Yes. For instance, you know a man who is in need, and you help him merely out of a sense of duty. You would rather he was not there, but feel

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you ought to do it. You are a slave if you are doing things in that way.

Rem. I think it is a great thing to have brought home to our hearts, that love is the source of service. The Lord said to Peter, "Lovest thou me?" John 21:16.

J.T. If you love you give freely and cheerfully; it is a pleasure to do so. You are free, as a son, and act in the dignity of a son; but if you do anything for a saint, merely because he needs it, it is slavery.

Rem. God would have no pleasure in that. The service of God refers to God. All your movements must refer to God.

J.T. Bringing you into the land is what God does for you. God brings you into His own land, and now what are you going to do for Him? You are going to serve God. God says, as it were, Look what I am going to make you: I make you an heir; now what are you going to do for Me? You are going to serve God in love.

Ques. Suppose I should have a desire to get over Jordan into the land, and I were to ask you for advice, what would you tell me?

J.T. I would tell you that you get in by attraction to Christ. It is a great thing to see that God has a place there for you. The land is God's best for us: it is what He has prepared for us, and when I am there consciously, the question arises, what am I going to do for God? I am going to serve Him.

Rem. It says in 2 Corinthians 5:15, "They which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again".

Ques. Would you say a little more about the assembly, because we have had the idea of connecting the assembly with a room or building, and thinking when we leave the assembly we are independent Christians in the world? We knew we were responsible, and all that, but were, in a way, standing alone.

J.T. The Lord's thought was to bring all His

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people into touch with Himself. I think we can see in the Acts how Christians were affected by coming together to meet the Lord. Every first day of the week they came together, and I am sure they realised the Lord's presence. He had a sphere into which He could come at any time with perfect freedom and find a welcome there. All were free there -- all sons.

Ques. I suppose the fact that when they first came together they had the door shut for fear of the Jews, shows in a way that they wished freedom from what was outside. The world was nothing to them.

J.T. Yes, and the Lord came in, and they were glad to see Him. That gives the idea of the assembly. The thing to see is that the Lord had a sphere down here, into which He could come at any time and find a welcome.

Ques. What would you think would be the effect if all Christians knew the truth of sonship?

J.T. I think they would conduct themselves in a very different way: they would walk as sons. I think our conduct is pretty much that of slaves.

Ques. And every Christian would then enjoy association with Christ.

J.P. Look at Barnabas. There was a son. He did not act like a slave. He had possessions, sold them, brought the money to the apostles and others did the same. The true effect of sonship conies out there.

J.T. I think the way the Lord intended to deliver His people was by bringing them into something infinitely better than the world. He brought them into something far better in the beginning of the Acts. It is clear that they thought that it was far better, for they gave up the world, and thus proved to the world that they had something better.

Rem. We are to seek the things which are above.

J.T. I should go anywhere to get into the sphere of

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heaven, and you can find it among the saints. That is the sphere of the Holy Ghost; Christ's sphere; that which is influenced by Christ. What a wonderful thing it is to be found in a sphere where Christ rules!

Ques. Is that why we get the exhortation, "Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together"? Hebrews 10:25.

J.T. Yes, because you find Christ there. You come into a sphere where Christ rules, outside of the world entirely. The reproach of Egypt is rolled away. You are there outside of all that marked you as a man in the flesh.

Rem. I find it very easy to speak of the Lord when amongst the Lord's people, but it is not so easy to speak of Him when out in the world.

J.T. That is because Christ is in reproach in the world, but I think we ought to consider it an honour to have the mark of Christ upon us.

Rem. It is when you come in contact with the world you need to have the armour on.

J.T. Yes, if it is a question of having to do with the world you need to he clad in the armour of God; but I think the thing to see is that you begin with entering into Canaan. That is really the beginning of service. If you have not entered into Canaan, you are not equipped for service. You must know what it is to be in God's land.

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UNITY AND PREACHING

Ephesians 2:11 - 22

J.P. Would you say a word on the difference between the first and second parts of this chapter? I suppose this second part is all present?

J.T. I suggested the portion read because I think it presents the assembly in relation to the testimony of God at the present time. The first part views the assembly placed in the heavenlies in relation to eternal purpose.

J.P. So the first part is anticipatory in its character?

J.T. Yes, but this part of the chapter treats of what was present; that is to say, what they were actually at Ephesus; and, in a wider sense, what the church, as a whole, was down here.

J.P. I suppose that condition of things at Ephesus was the bloom of the church. God was free, as it were, to bring all these things out in connection with that particular assembly. In Ephesus there was by the work of God in the saints, an answer to His mind in regard to the assembly.

J.T. Yes. I take Ephesus to be what you might call the summer of the church (if one might be allowed to use a figure of that kind). I think the church has had its springtime and summer; I fancy it is now having its winter.

J.P. It was midsummer at Ephesus.

J.T. Yes, things were in bloom. I gather this from the record of it in the Acts. From the manner in which things are presented there, I think the formation of the assembly in its world-wide character begins properly at Corinth. The apostle speaks of laying the foundation and planting there, but when you come to Ephesus, it is bloom.

J.P. We get the chief corner stone in Ephesus.

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While it might be said that there has to be a foundation for the chief corner stone, still there is this important distinction: the one is the beginning, the other is the climax.

J.T. The chief corner stone was seen and prominent. There was not much to see at Corinth. There is nothing to see when you plant a seed, or when a foundation is laid. The foundation is not seen, but a handsome corner stone is to be seen, and this is what was to be seen, morally, at Ephesus.

J.P. Yes, I remember distinctly some years ago one of the Lord's servants, in speaking of the apostle and his ministry, said the foundation of the structure was laid at Corinth, and it reached its climax at Ephesus.

J.T. Yes, Paul had laid the foundation and had planted the seed at Corinth.

J.P. We naturally connect brightness and sunshine with midsummer, but, as a matter of fact, even in winter we do occasionally get a little sunshine, and I believe the Lord would, in His grace, even now in the wintertime of the assembly's history, afford some sunshine. Do you not think so?

J.T. Yes, I do.

Ques. Would you say the sun is low in the horizon?

J.T. I think the flowers, so to speak, have disappeared. Instead of the blessed fruit of the testimony of God, as there was in the beginning of the church's history, you have now that which is of man. The apostle records in 2 Timothy the order of things that was then becoming patent. It was not the blessed fruits of the testimony of God, but fruits of the flesh, which latter had become active in the house of God.

J.P. I would like to be clear about that first part of Ephesians 2. You say the assembly is seen there in the heavenlies, and that must have regard to the

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future, and the eternal purpose of God. I suppose you mean the eternal purpose of God in actual accomplishment and display. I should like to know how far we can take up the first part of chapter 2 at the present time?

J.T. I do not think we can take it up at all in a literal sense.

J.P. Then if you connect the idea of Canaan exclusively with the first part of chapter 2 and you say that cannot be taken up at the present time, that is equivalent to saying we cannot reach Canaan now.

J.T. That would be the conclusion. If Canaan refers to heaven literally it must be altogether relegated to the future, for the reason that the Lord never indicated to the disciples that they were to go up to heaven until He returned to take them there. What He presented as privilege, in view of His absence, was that He would come to them: "I will come to you". John 14:18.

J.P. That is what we had before us a little yesterday afternoon, and in that sense you think we get into the land now?

J.T. Yes.

J.P. We may find association with Him now. The truth of God here should be made clear for the beloved saints, who have a difficulty regarding it. I think the difficulty arises from the form of the language, if I may so speak, in the opening part of this chapter: "Hath quickened us together with Christ ( ... ) and hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus". Ephesians 2:5,6. That seems as if it were spoken of as having present accomplishment.

J.T. Yes, but I think it is anticipative: its bearing refers to the future, for immediately following that, it says: "That in the ages to come, he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus". Ephesians 2:7. It has the ages

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to come in view clearly. We can, however, regard the saints as in heavenly places now morally.

J.P. And I suppose it is set before us that we might be in the light and enjoyment of it now?

J.T. I think it indicates the position of the church in the divine sphere. It is the place given the church by God in His great love. This should affect us profoundly.

J.P. I think it is plain from the way the assembly is spoken of in the end of chapter 1 (as the fulness of Him who fills all in all) that its place is in the heavenlies.

J.T. Yes, our place is on high: there can be no doubt about that. The place of the assembly is in heaven, and things are to take form and character from her as coming down from above. In the future, relief for the creation depends on what comes down from above -- not on anything that comes from below; and that is to a large extent the thought of heaven. It is the source of good and blessing. "Every good gift and every perfect gift comes down from above, from the Father of lights, with whom is no variation nor shadow of turning". James 1:17. Everything comes down from above, hence the holy city comes down from above. She is seen coming down as a bride adorned for her husband: coming down from God out of heaven.

J.P. The coming down of the city from God really introduces and brings about the wonderful day of the display of Christ's glory here. You cannot have any day of display here until the assembly, or city, comes down from God out of heaven.

J.T. That is the beginning of things publicly. The saints, in a moral sense, come down from God out of heaven even now; if they do not, they cannot represent Him down here. God's thought was to shine out morally in the church, and the church at Ephesus had furnished an opportunity for it, because, as I said

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before, Ephesus is, as it were, the bloom of the church. Things were flourishing. Paul had planted, Apollos had watered, and, I think, Ephesus was, in a sense, the "increase". You get the planting in Acts 18, that was at Corinth; and in the end of that chapter you get Apollos, who was the waterer; he comes upon the scene there, and in chapter 19 you get Ephesus.

Ques. What do you mean by coming down out of heaven?

J.T. That is the idea that Scripture gives; all that is of God must come out of heaven.

Ques. I mean in connection with us here now, as we are?

J.T. The idea is that you are heavenly: you belong to heaven, and even now you are brought into the divine sphere. That was the case with the Ephesians: they were brought into the divine sphere. Unless you are brought into it you cannot represent God here. The land of Canaan now is association with Christ. This is assembly privilege, although we do not leave the earth literally, privilege is essentially heavenly.

Rem. You cannot know much about God unless you come from His presence.

J.T. You must know what it is to be in His sphere.

J.P. That is a principle of the greatest importance, and I think it runs all through Scripture. In John 3 the Lord speaks of Himself to Nicodemus thus: "No man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven". John 3:13. There was a Man who could speak of Himself as having come down from heaven, and hence His competency to bear testimony as to what is in heaven. He is competent, as having come down from above. The One from above was here and gave testimony as to what is above.

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J.T. What we have been saying as to coming down from above, reverses the whole order of things from the popular point of view, because the common thought is what is going above. What comes down from above is the thought we should get hold of. God intends to affect things down here by what is above, and things come down from above. You know the common idea is what is going above to stay, but that is really the very reverse of Scripture. Although the church is not seen on the earth after the rapture, yet Revelation 21 presents it as in relation to the earth both in the millennium and eternal state. Scripture leaves it as "with men".

Ques If you were to die today, you would go to heaven, would you not?

J.T. Scripture puts it differently. It says, "To depart, and to be with Christ". Philippians 1:23.

Ques. In the future we are to come from above, but in the meantime we are going above: we are going to be with Him. That is heaven, is it not?

J.T. It is not disclosed where we are going, except that we are going to be with Christ. I suppose if you were to ask ninety-nine out of one hundred men in the world about the world to come -- what they call the other world, they would understand you to mean heaven. I think the common idea of heaven is Utopian.

J.P. In all I have asked you I do not wish to divert you from what we see here before us in this passage. I think it is a great point, and I hope the Lord will give us some present help to see the assembly in relation to the testimony of God.

J.T. Yes, that is what concerns us most for the moment. The assembly must come down from above, morally. I think you would conclude that those people who were at Ephesus came down from above, morally: they were not produced by any elements down here.

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Ques. Would you mind my getting clear about the thought of going to heaven? When a boy I used to sing, "There is a happy land far far away", and I think that is a good deal in our minds yet.

J.P. They have modified it on the second line, and it is, "Not far away" now.

J.T. I think our brother is quite right: in the minds of most people it is a question of what is far away. The thought is wrong.

J.P. So it is. It is remarkable that in the New Testament Scriptures which speak of the death of the saints, the thought of going to heaven does not once occur; it is to be with the Person. "To-day shalt thou be with me in paradise;" Luke 23:43. "Having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ;" Philippians 1:23. "Absent from the body, present with the Lord;" 2 Corinthians 5:8, and Peter speaks of putting off his tabernacle; of his departure, or decease. That is the way it is expressed. In Revelation 14:13, we get, "Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth". That properly has no present application.

R.S.S. I suppose the reason why so little is said in regard to what our brother was speaking of, is that it is incidental, it simply comes in in the meantime? The normal thing is really the coming of the Lord.

J.P. Which properly is not the rapture, but His appearing. This is when He comes the second time apart from sin unto salvation.

R.S.S. The normal thing is, "We which are alive and remain". 1 Thessalonians 4:15. Would you not say so?

J.T. "We which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep". 1 Thessalonians 4:15.

R.S.S. What I meant to say is, the normal thing is not that we should die, but that we are alive and remain until the Lord comes: but we cannot hold out: our bodies get so weak we fall asleep, and there is not much said about that condition.

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J.P. If some do fall asleep the comfort given is "If we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him". 1 Thessalonians 4:14. What follows is really a parenthesis, to make clear how God will bring them with Him; but the truth raised there is that all the saints are coming back: God is going to bring them with Him: "Them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him". 1 Thessalonians 4:14. That beloved servant of the Lord, who was with us here in this city a little over two years ago, just before he went to be with the Lord, said (when somebody mentioned in his room, in his hearing, Our sister Mrs. So and So is gone), I suppose you will be saying about me before long that I am gone, but I am coming out with Christ when He comes in His glory. That is the true expectation of the saints.

J.T. The thing for us to have clearly before our minds is God, and God has come out in testimony, for blessing, and I think He has given indications as to the sphere of the blessing.

Ques. Is your thought that that which testifies of heaven must come out of heaven, in order to affect the earth?

J.T. Yes, I think all good must come out of heaven. The thought is that God has created the earth to be inhabited by man, and His intention is to bring blessing into the earth, and the way by which He brings in blessing is that He comes in Himself; if God is here, all is well.

Ques. Would you connect that with the verse in Proverbs, "My delights were with the sons of men"? Proverbs 8:31.

J.T. That is Christ and His associates, I judge, but God intended to bring in blessing, and He would bring in blessing by coming in Himself; that is to say, the dwelling-place of God involves blessing.

Ques Then if the assembly is any witness and testimony here it must come from God first?

J.T. So morally the first part of the chapter has

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application in that way; that we are brought into God's sphere on account of His great love wherewith He has loved us; we are quickened together with Christ, raised up together, and made to sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus. That is God's thought about us, and I think that has taken place in a moral sense; we are brought into the sphere of God's love, and it is in that way we are qualified to come out for God.

Rem. You said at the beginning of this meeting that what we get after the eleventh verse is what the assembly is here actually.

J.T. Yes, what it was actually at the beginning.

Rem. I suppose the first and second chapters of Genesis set forth in a way the things we have before us: God's purpose is shown in the blessing of man down here, etc.

J.T. I think the idea of blessing came out in Abraham, but it never took form properly until the Holy Ghost came here.

Ques. What do you understand by the blessing coming through Abraham?

J.T. I think the blessing of Abraham must lie for us in the Holy Ghost, at the present time. The blessing of Abraham is said to have arrived at the nations in Christ, but it came to them in a practical way in the Holy Ghost.

Rem. They were strangers from the covenants of promise. "Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called uncircumcision by that which is called the circumcision in the flesh made by hands; that at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world". Ephesians 2:11,12.

J.T. That is the point. They were atheists -- that is the meaning of the term "without God".

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They did not have God: there was no God for them. That was the state of the Gentiles.

Rem. I got much help in regard to the seed of Abraham in Galatians, in seeing that the promise to Abraham's seed was in connection with faith -- not in connection with natural descent.

Ques. It says, "That we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith". Galatians 3:14. You said a moment ago the Holy Ghost brings these things to us?

J.T. The question is: Has the blessing come in or not? and if the blessing has come in, the next point is: In what way?

Rem We have nothing to do with Abraham now that Christ has come.

J.T. We are all children of Abraham on the principle of faith.

Rem. I understood when Christ came it put an end to all this.

J.T. We have to take things up morally. Abraham is the father of the faithful: the father of all those that believe. It is remarkable how the Spirit takes up expressions in the Old Testament. Abraham being the father of a great multitude (that is the meaning of his name), referred to Christians -- we are included in the multitude, see Romans 4.

Rem The promise never passed away.

J.T. We are the multitude come into the blessing of Abraham. But I should like to have it clear as to how the blessing came in, and my thought is that the church was the vessel of the blessing in a practical sense.

J.P. Our attention is often called to figures, but we hardly take in the bearing of the figures.

In regard to the blessing, if you look at Colossians, the Spirit is only mentioned once in that epistle, but in Ephesians He is very prominent, and hence the blessing. The blessing was at Ephesus evidently.

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J.T. The apostle proceeds to state here that enmity had been removed: where enmity had been, unity and peace were established. The Lord had annulled the enmity, the law of commandments in ordinances, and had reconciled both Jew and Gentile in one body by the cross. Then the next point is preaching.

J.P. Yes, the reconciliation in Christ, and then the preaching in verse 17.

J.T. I think that is the divine order. You must have unity established, for you cannot have blessing without that. The blessing follows the unity. The Lord had brought unity to pass, and then He becomes the Preacher. He preached the glad tidings of peace to those that were afar off, and to those that were nigh. How could you preach the glad tidings if the blessing was not there? But Christ had effected unity in one body, and hence the blessing was there.

J.P. There could not have been preaching seeing that the Lord had left the earth, until that was effected.

J.T. If it be a question of what was effected in heaven, all was accomplished in Acts 1 but salvation was not possible without a divine Person on earth, Acts 2 presents a divine Person here in the house, and hence the preaching.

Ques. Do you not see that order in John 20? Christ comes into their midst saying, "Peace be unto you" then, "Receive ye the Holy Ghost" (John 20:19 & 22); He also speaks of sending them out.

J.T. That is it.

R.S.S. Psalm 133 indicates the order: "Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity! ... there the Lord commanded the blessing, even life for evermore". Psalm 133:1,3.

J.T. That is the blessing of Abraham -- life for evermore: there, no doubt, it refers to what is still future, but at the outset the blessing took form in

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the church. I think this passage (and that is why I suggested it) brings in the thought of unity -- what the Lord Jesus Christ has brought to pass down here. He has brought unity to pass by reconciling Jew and Gentile in one body by the cross and the blessing depends on that, and then we have the preaching: "And coming he has preached the glad tidings of peace to you who were afar off, and the glad tidings of peace to those who were nigh". Ephesians 2:17.

Ques. That is the nations and the Jews?

J.T. Yes, all are included, but you must have the blessing first -- the blessing was there.

R.S.S. The question might be asked: What exactly is the blessing? Would you say it is life?

J.T. I think the blessing, in the purest sense, must be life eternal. If you take account of the state of man you must conclude nothing could be blessing to him short of life. What could be blessing to him other than that? You might give him blessings down here in the flesh, but what good would they be to him? He has to die. The Spirit being here in the assembly involves that God is dwelling here, and blessing is in consequence of this. Every blessing is found where God dwells.

J.P. You might even, in a sense, relieve man of wants, but if you stop short of life -- eternal life -- you stop short really of that which is the blessing.

Ques. Would you say the reason there are so few oases of blessing now is on account of the condition of the church?

J.T. Yes. There is but little to attract people: the blessing is not apparent.

Ques. It is outward unity here, is it not?

J.T. Not outward unity only: it was vital. At the beginning where enmity had been the Lord established unity: but where the Lord had established unity, man has introduced enmity. Discord and enmity are what mark the church now. Where

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is the blessing now? What is there to speak about? The state of things in Christendom is just as bad as what pervaded the empire prior to Christianity. What is there but avarice, rivalry, pride, and every other trait of man in the flesh?

J.P. See the striking moral similarity between the end of Romans 1 and 2 Timothy 3!

J.T. You called attention last night to what man was without God "Hateful, and hating one another", Titus 3:3 etc. That was the state of man naturally. Now salvation delivered from all that. I think the idea of salvation is that you are brought into an entirely new sphere, where there is nothing of that kind, but where instead, righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost abound. That was what marked the beginning of things. There was the external world, the world of the flesh, which was marked by those things to which you called attention, and now God brings in another system, an entirely different one -- one with nothing at all of the world in it.

God's sphere is brought to pass by Christ, but brought to pass in relation to the testimony of God down here. That is seen in this passage. The Lord brought unity to pass, and the blessing follows upon unity; then the preaching -- the universal preaching to those who were afar off, and to those who were nigh.

J.P. I can see more clearly than ever I did the divine idea here in connection with preaching. It pre-supposes the establishment down here of that which is according to God.

J.T. Yes, it always supposes building, so far as I see. The first preacher was Noah.

J.P. That is, he was the first man called a preacher.

J.T. Yes, and he really was not the preacher -- Christ was the Preacher.

J.P. Yes, that is clear in 1 Peter 3. It was the Spirit of Christ.

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J.T. Christ has always been the Preacher. In 1 Peter 4 we read, "The glad tidings were preached to the dead also, that they might be judged, as regards men, after the flesh, but live, as regards God, after the Spirit". 1 Peter 4:6. Christ has been preaching all the time, and He is now preaching.

JR The way in which you have spoken of this has been a real encouragement to me. When a certain beloved brother, and devoted servant of the Lord, died, over twenty years ago, I remember the looks of some of the saints, as they said: What are we going to do now he is dead? Well, I say, The Preacher is not dead; the Minister is not dead. What are we going to do for ministry? The Minister is not dead; the Preacher is not dead, and, thank God, He never will die.

J.T. I do not think that Noah was much of a preacher after the flood. You do not hear of his preaching after that, but the preaching went on, and it does still.

J.P. It goes on notwithstanding the fact that those who may have been, for the moment, the vessels through whom Christ has preached, may die. They are but vessels.

J.T. And they may become unfaithful and cease preaching. Preaching went on after the flood. Abraham was preached to, but there is no evidence of Noah having preached, although he lived a long time after that event.

J.P. One would not expect it from the solemn picture the Spirit of God gives of him, lying drunk in his tent. That would hardly seem a suitable vessel for preaching.

J.T. I do not think that God is shut up to any particular man: the preaching will go on whether men go on or not, and the thing is to be in accord with God. He goes on building and preaching no matter how men treat Him, The longsuffering of God came

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out in the days of Noah, while the ark was preparing. For a long period God, as it were, continued to build and preach, although nobody believed Him. There was no answer to the preaching, but nevertheless there was no stopping in the building and the preaching. That is a very encouraging thing at the present tine. Take this country for instance: you do not see much result nowadays, but still God goes on building and preaching. If men do not get benefited, this much comes to pass: the longsuffering of God is demonstrated by it.

The thing to see is what God brought in at the outset: He brought the assembly to pass. Really Christ brought unity and blessing to pass. Nobody solicited it: nobody invited the Lord to do it, but He comes and brings out what was in God's heart, and brings the blessing close to man.

Rem. After all this has been accomplished, then the preaching goes out.

J.P. What did you say grew at Ephesus?

J.T. "The word of the Lord".

J.P. You were saying that in this chapter we see the assembly in relation to the testimony?

J.T. Yes, and the apostle was greatly concerned. He was the mouthpiece of Christ, so to say. He was to be the herald of the glad tidings, and was very anxious that he should be able to speak with boldness. He asked the prayers of the saints "That I may be bold in it as I ought to speak". Ephesians 6:20.

J.P. I quite agree with you. No doubt the assembly was set up at Ephesus, but I think you would say the Lord also had a great work at Thessalonica, for from there the word of the Lord sounded out in all Macedonia and Achaia.

R.S.S. It is very encouraging to think that the testimony has been extended in a westerly direction.

If God has commenced a work in this country, we ought to be exercised to further it, as individuals.

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J.T. The thing is to be in His service; to be vessels sanctified and meet for the Master's use. If such, He can make good use of the vessel. The great point is to yield yourself to Christ.

Ques. I should like to ask how you connect the "habitation ... in the Spirit" with what was established?

J.T. What was established was the habitation of God. God came down here and took up His abode in the assembly. That is seen in this passage: "So then ye are no longer strangers and foreigners, but ye are fellow-citizens of the saints, and of the household of God ... built together for a habitation of God in the Spirit". Ephesians 2:19, 22.

Ques. I have been thinking of the blessing of Abraham in connection with what we have been having. In regard to Zion, "There the Lord commanded the blessing, even life for evermore". Psalm 133:3. It seems to me what we have here is life for evermore. Is it not?

J.T. Yes, life for evermore is the blessing; and this, as I said, took form in the church in the power of the Holy Ghost.

Ques In speaking of preaching, it was not the Lord personally preaching, because He was never seen after His resurrection. Of course He came to His disciples, saying, "Peace be unto you", (John 20:19) etc., but He never spoke to the world.

J.T. No, not personally, but He is the great Overseer. For instance, take a great emperor or king; he controls everything. If anything is to be done in his kingdom, he tells his prominent men to do so and so; while he has not done it himself, still it is regarded that it is he who has done it. Now the Lord is the supreme, universal Director of everything. It is so even in regard to departed spirits. They are with the Lord: not at the right hand of God: it means that they are in His sphere: He is taking care of them.

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The king of England does not come to Canada very often, but he is doing many things in Canada, and all over his colonies, and just so it is with Christ.

Christ is the great Preacher, but, as in the case of Noah, the preaching is through men down here. We read, "By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah". 1 Peter 3:20. Wonderful longsuffering! Preaching to disobedient people.

Rem. God was vindicated in that case.

J.T. Yes, His longsuffering came out.

Ques. Will you speak a word of two about eternal life as connected with the church?

J.T. I think the question was that the blessing of Abraham had arrived at the nations. Where the Holy Ghost brings unity to pass among men, you get eternal life.

Rem. I was thinking eternal life came out in the 18th verse "For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father". Ephesians 2:18.

J.T. No, I should not call that eternal life quite. I think it is involved in it, however: but the saints were set in relation to Christ, and to one another, in righteousness and love, and then they lived. Instead of being in the sphere of death -- the world system -- they came into the sphere of life. Coming into the Christian circle at the beginning, meant coming into the sphere of life.

Rem. They lived in the love of God.

Ques. I was thinking of the passage, "This is life eternal, that they might know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent". John 17:3. This would involve access to the Father?

J.T. The thought of life was that it came in consequent upon unity. You get a company of saints together in the unity of the Holy Ghost, and you have every evidence of life there.

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J.P. In other words, the question of eternal life is a question of certain conditions, and all those conditions were there in that wonderful circle.

J.T. That is it.

J.P. That is what you meant by saying life for evermore was there.

J.T. Yes, it must have been. Everything of God must be there.

J.P. I think in a way it is very beautiful to see the form in which the blessing has arrived at the nations. It is in the Holy Ghost. Everything lies in the Holy Ghost subjectively. Life lies in the Holy Ghost. If you admit the Holy Ghost is in the church, all good dwells there Spirit-wise. "Built together for a habitation of God in the Spirit". Ephesians 2:22. That really involves everything.

Ques I have a little difficulty in this way. You spoke of what conies down from above. To me what came down from above reverts back to knowledge of divine Persons, and in that way we get eternal life. It means the knowledge of divine Persons.

J.T. It does, but I think the idea is that God would bring in the elements of blessing. He would bring into this scene the elements of heaven, and as a consequence men would live. That will actually take place in the future, but has now taken place in the church, and I do not think we could have denied it had we been at Ephesus, or Antioch, or Jerusalem. It could not be denied that the elements of life were there, and they were placed there by God. That was the testimony on the part of God to Christ: "For this is the witness of God which he has witnessed concerning his Son". 1 John 5:9. "And this is the witness, that God has given to us eternal life; and this life is in his Son". 1 John 5:11. God had given to the saints eternal life, and that was the witness on the part of God to Christ.

Rem. That is the blessing.

J.T. It is the blessing and the witness too. The

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record that God has given of Christ is that He has given to the saints eternal life, and that this life is in His Son.

J.P. Do you think that point in 1 John 5 is clear to all of us? I do not think it is: I mean what you said about the witness being in the saints.

J.T. It was a question of God bearing testimony to His Son, and the testimony was that He had given to the saints eternal life. I think it could be seen there at Jerusalem, or at Ephesus. If you came in contact with those Christians you would at once see the elements of life. You can see from their conduct what a wonderful sphere they were brought into. They abandoned all in the world, and did not seem to think they had lost anything, or made any sacrifice.

J.P. And the result was, the word of God multiplied. "Thus with might the word of the Lord increased and prevailed". Acts 19:20.

J.T. In a certain sense, all Asia was illuminated through Ephesus. The preaching was by Paul, but he was identified with the assembly.

R.S.S. What was characteristic of them was their faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints. It was love that characterised them.

J.T. I think our great concern at the present time should be to be set in relation to one another. That is the testimony of God. God is love, and the testimony of God is love. "God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him". 1 John 4:8. So I think if we get close to one another in love there will be at least something of God apparent.

Ques. Is there any connection between what you were just saying and what you get in the twenty-second verse of this chapter? "In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit"? Ephesians 2:22.

J.T. Yes. I suppose verse 21 really looks on to the future "In whom all the building fitly framed

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together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord" (Ephesians 2:21) but already they were the habitation of God down here.

JR The point about the testimony is not quite understood (I am not speaking for myself). Would you mind reverting for a moment to 1 John 5? The point that is not understood is that in the saints the testimony is given as to the Son of God.

J.T. I think the passage clearly states that: "If we receive the witness of men the witness of God is greater for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son". 1 John 5:9 - 11. That was the witness, and if people do not believe that witness they make God a liar, because it was God's testimony. It was an unquestionable testimony.

J.P. Many beloved saints have had the idea it was certain passages in Scripture.

J.T. The saints were to be the testimony.

J.P. How do you think this would go with it: "Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another. No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us, Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit. And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world". 1 John 4:11 - 14.

J.T. I do indeed think that goes with it. I do not think anybody can testify to God unless it be those who know God in love. One might preach a good sermon, and not know God in love. In consequence of the rejection of Israel the testimony was bound up, and the law sealed among the disciples.

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Ques. Why is it we get so mixed up in time of trouble?

J.P. I suppose the only remedy for that is to get into the secret of His tabernacle, then you will have a good time in the time of trouble. Time of trouble will be to you an exceeding good time.

J.T. I think we are extremely defective in regard to the church -- what a marvellous thing it is!

J.P. I feel how little we understand what it is. I never was so impressed regarding the magnitude of it.

J.T. The ark was a marvellous thing, capable of withstanding all it had to contend with. We do not hear of any accidents on the way. Every animal came out that went in.

I think every single thought of God in the future will be seen. They have all been preserved and carried through. There are no new developments to come out. God has given expression to every thought of His, and all are preserved.

J.P. You do not go in then for New Truth?

J.T. Nothing new. Everything is preserved; all housed, as it were, in the ark, and awaiting the time of display.

Rem. That is the church.

Rem. What other place is there for the activities of the love of Christ?

J.T. No other place: there is no other sphere where His affections are active except in the church.

J.P. In the world people are "hateful, and hating one another". Titus 3:3. That is what is characteristic of the world.

J.T. But the idea of the assembly is that "righteousness, and peace, and joy, in the Holy Ghost" (Romans 14:17) are to be characteristic of it. A direct contrast to all in the world. Salvation meant leaving one sphere for the other. So salvation for Noah really meant leaving the world so corrupted, and

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entering on a world that was purified. Salvation for him meant "saved by water", and we are all "saved by water". 1 Peter 3:20. Of course, Noah and his house were saved in the ark from that in which all others perished, but the flood was a mercy because of the state of things in the world.

J.P. I have often thought of Noah's experience. You see he was an old man when he went into the ark, and must have been very familiar with the old order of things; must have known a good deal of the terrible character of it; hence when he comes into the new world one can readily understand what a keen appreciation he must have had of it all. What a wonderful thing salvation must have been to Noah! How real it was!

R.S.S. Could we have a word about "Through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father"? (Ephesians 2:18) Is the thought there approach to God?

J.T. 1 think so. I think it is perhaps what you might call our highest privilege. We have access to the Father.

JP. I suppose in accompaniment with what you have said, the service of God is taken up?

J.T. Yes, but I think this is set forth here more to show the privilege of these Gentiles. The apostle says, as it were, See the wonderful privilege accorded to you. We (Jew and Gentile) have both access by one Spirit now.

J.P. And it is set in contrast to that previous verse, where one is described as being in the world "Having no hope, and without God in the world". Ephesians 2:12. The people who were in that terrible condition were brought into this wonderful sphere where this marvellous privilege belongs to them. It belongs to all alike who are there.

Ques. Is that something like Psalm 134? It speaks of the priests standing day and night in His temple serving.

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J.T. I have no doubt the thought is there.

Ques. Is not the privilege extended beyond that of Judaism?

J.T. They never had access to God.

J.P. The priests had access to God in a sense, but no one had access to the Father.

Rem. Going back a little to your illustration of the ark, and how they all came out of the ark in good order: in all that there was a sweet savour to God.

J.T. The Lord smelled a sweet savour, and then He says, "I will not again curse", etc. Genesis 8:21. It conveys an idea as to what the new world is to God as based on the sacrifice of Christ. It really refers to the coming age, but I think, as we have said frequently, it all finds its answer morally in the church now. I think God finds a sweet savour in the Christian assembly. Christ, personally, when here on earth, was that to Him, but the disciples were to bear fruit for the Father. (See John 15, and Ephesians 5:2). There was to be that in the Christian circle which was pleasing to the Father. In Leviticus 23 Christ and the church are seen in resurrection. The idea of "first-fruits" is connected with both.

Ques. What would you say was the difference between this (having access to the Father), and having boldness to enter the holiest by the blood of Jesus?

J.T. I think this would call more for affection. I would connect this more with the land of Canaan; access to the Father I think involves the land of Canaan. It involves having to say to the Father in privilege. I think entrance into the holiest of all is apprehension: it is more connected with the mind. I think too, the idea of the holiest is that it stands connected with the wilderness.

Rem. You would connect the holiest with the

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wilderness and that which can be grasped with the mind.

J.T. It is what you apprehend, with the spiritual mind. What you see (by the Spirit, of course), so to say, because you go in there to contemplate.

J.P. Entrance in Scripture is generally a figure of apprehension.

R.S.S. I think those two words privilege and apprehension are very helpful in connection with the Scriptures we were speaking of, and I am thankful for them.

J.P. Yes, and the practical connection is very clear in Hebrews. You are in the wilderness there, and the value of entrance into the holiest is seen. Its effect is seen in your ability to come out and take up what is connected with Christian responsibility in the wilderness, but here in Ephesians I think, as our brother said, it really involves the land, because it is the scene of privilege, and present privilege, too.

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UNITY AND PREACHING (CONTINUED)

Ephesians 4:1 - 32

J.T. The passage we had before us this morning indicated the privileges the Gentile christians were brought into, and I think the apostle's prayer in chapter 3 would be to the end that they might be in accord with these privileges. I judge what would be required for that would be intelligence and love. "Being rooted and founded in love, in order that ye may be fully able to apprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and depth and height; and to know the love of the Christ which surpasses knowledge; that ye may be filled even to all the fulness of God", (Ephesians 3:18, 19) indicates the thought of the apostle in regard to them, and, I think, all with a view to the divine intention that God should be known down here. God intended to become His own testimony, and this would come to pass in His being seen morally in the saints down here. "Filled unto all the fulness of God", would involve that God dwelt in the saints, and they in God.

J.P. And it would seem from the end of chapter 3 that what begins now and here will be carried through eternity. "To him be glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus unto all generations of the age of ages". Ephesians 3:21. I think it is very interesting to see that there is already for God the beginning of that which will be perpetuated throughout eternity.

R.S.S. Would 1 Corinthians 13 confirm that thought? That is, that the two things which abide are intelligence and love? "Now I know partially but then I shall know according as I also have been known. And now abide faith, hope, love; these

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three things; and the greater of these is love". 1 Corinthians 13:13. Knowledge and love abide.

J.P. Yes.

J.T. I like to read these chapters in connection with Acts 20. The apostle had unfolded to the Ephesian saints the whole counsel of God, and had enlightened them in regard to their privileges, and then had committed the responsibility of things into the hands of the elders. They were to see his face no more, but were to be responsible. And now, he says, "I commit you to God, and to the word of his grace". Acts 20:32. I think the thing was set up perfectly, and it would have been strengthened if God had been allowed His place. So here in Ephesians 3 I think the apostle realises how all depended upon God, hence He prays to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. "For this reason", he says, "I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ", etc. Ephesians 3:14. I think he felt that, whilst things were perfectly set up, they had been given into the hands of the elders, and their only safety lay in dependence on God; but I think the elders instead of relying upon God relied upon themselves.

J.P. Do you not think the apostle anticipated that such would be the ease when he speaks of men arising from among themselves speaking perverted things?

J.T. Yes. Still the thought holds good that there is no change on God's side, and God is able to do "exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think" Ephesians 3:20; so wherever there is a turning to God you will find help in Him.

J.P. What would you say, generally speaking, characterises chapter 4? You spoke of what we had this morning as setting forth the privileges of the Gentiles who had been brought into this wonderful structure.

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J.T. Yes, and I take it this chapter, up to verse 16, would indicate what you might call family manners; at any rate that which should mark us in our relation to one another.

J.P. I suppose family manners have reference to the household of God?

J.T. Yes. Christians are called to be in the house of God. That is where everything that is of God on earth is now. The house is where all privileges are.

Rem. So the apostle exhorts them to "walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called". Ephesians 4:1.

J.T. They are brought into the royal abode, so to speak.

Ques. What is the vocation? Is that the right word?

J.P. It is the calling. This chapter follows chapter 2 properly; chapter 3 is parenthetical. Chapter 2 speaks of the "calling".

J.T. I think up to the end of verse 16 you get pretty much the inner circle; after that, on to chapter 6 it is more what is external.

J.P. And so that would lead you on to the conflict in chapter 6?

J.T. Yes, but evidently the first thing is to know how the saints were to conduct themselves in their relations to one another.

J.P. That is manifestly what is brought before us in the beginning of the chapter. You get, "With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love". Ephesians 4:2. As you said, up to and including verse 16, you get the inner circle, and it is there we are fitted: so what we get here is really the conduct, or manners, that are suited to the place our calling has brought us into.

J.T. It goes on to say, "Using diligence to keep the unity of the Spirit in the uniting bond of peace". Ephesians 4:3. There is no basis for preaching if there is not the

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unity of the Spirit: that was what the Lord strove to bring to pass; and He slew the enmity. Chapter 2 shows what the Lord did.

J.P. This must be on our side -- using diligence to maintain it practically.

J.T. As far as Christ was concerned, He effected it perfectly. He brought unity to pass: He established unity, and then He preached. That is what He has done, and now the question is, What are you going to do with it? I think that is pretty much the ground upon which the church was left down here. It was set up perfectly, and in every way qualified to be the ground, the basis, of preaching, and the question was whether it would continue so.

J.P. It is very clear a few verses further down: the gifts were in full operation, and the divine intention was that their operation was all to be connected with what God had established here.

J.T. The whole equipment was complete -- nothing was lacking. The church was set up in perfection, but in everything given to man's responsibility there is failure.

R.S.S. We have at the beginning of the chapter the thought of unity, etc., and the going on of the saints together, before the gifts are referred to.

J.T. I think the gifts are given to the end that the building might be held together and built up. It is important to see what God's intention was. He intended to display Himself morally down here, and in order to do that there must be a vessel adequate for it, and I think it was with that intention all gifts were given -- for the building up of the saints in Christ.

R.S.S. "Unto the edifying of itself in love". Ephesians 4:16.

J.T. Yes.

J.P. As you were saying, the very first gospel address, Acts 2, really took the form of a sort of explanation, or account, of the blessing.

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J.T. Yes, and the blessing Peter gave an account of was consequent upon the unity of the one hundred and twenty. The Spirit here was consequent on Christ being glorified, as Peter says; but something additional to Christ's exaltation was really necessary; that is, a suitable vessel to receive the Spirit. The Lord had prepared this, which was the one hundred and twenty.

Rem. That day about three thousand souls were added unto them. What the three thousand were brought to was what was found amongst the one hundred and twenty.

J.T. And it was there prior to the preaching. The unity was there prior to the blessing; the blessing was consequent upon the unity, and the preaching was consequent upon the blessing. "Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity! It is like the precious ointment upon the head, that ran down upon the beard, even Aaron's beard: that went down to the skirts of his garments; as the dew of Hermon and as the dew that descended upon the mountains of Zion: for there the Lord commanded the blessing, even life for evermore". Psalm 133:1 - 3. That is the order you have here. Peter does not even call attention to it: it did not require that: it was there, and what was required of him was to explain what it meant: to give an account of it. The unity spoken of in Acts 2 was the fruit of the Lord's personal work in the disciples; unity now can only be by the Spirit.

J.P. The record of their being together with one accord shows there was unity there prior to the coming of the Holy Ghost.

J.T. The Spirit of God does not put these things there without a purpose. They were together "with one accord", and then the Holy Ghost came. The apostle could allude to them and say, "This which ye now see and hear". Acts 2:33. What was seen and heard

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was the effect of the Holy Ghost in the one hundred and twenty.

Ques. Bringing that down to our day, how would you connect it with the present state of things?

J.T. The difficulty today is to get the unity: and if there is no unity, there is no practical sphere of blessing; hence the difficulty now in preaching is that you cannot easily convince people as to the blessing. The great point is to get the saints together in unity. That is clear enough. If you can get them together in that way there is then something to call the attention of man to. However difficult this may be to accept, it is a simple statement of the order seen in Scripture, Acts 2. I believe Christ should be preached even if the unity is not apparent, but the preacher should feel and own the weakness of his position.

Rem. I was much interested in what you said yesterday, about building preceding preaching.

J.T. Well, building and unity are pretty much the same thought, because in divine things building means putting together. It is a very prominent thought in this chapter. The word edify is the same as build: you get the word edifice from edify.

Ques. Do you not have to preach before you get people to build in? They have to be converted.

J.T. The three thousand were built in (or, more correctly, added), but the point to see is that the building was there prior to that, into which to build them.

Ques. What was the building?

J.T. The one hundred and twenty.

Ques Were they preached to?

J.T. No, they were not preached to: the Lord Jesus put them there. That is what He was doing; He was the true David. David did not build the house, but he prepared the material for it. That is what the Lord Jesus did; He prepared the one

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hundred and twenty. It was the most marvellous piece of workmanship. They were not preached to; they were the workmanship of Christ. He prepared the material and left it there, and then the Holy Ghost came and formed it into the building.

J.P. Is it not significant too, what Paul preached at Ephesus: he preached the kingdom.

J.T. Quite so. He began with twelve men at Ephesus; and he did not form those twelve men. He found them there, but his point was, Have you the Holy Ghost? That is to say, is the blessing here? "Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?" Acts 19:2. They had never so much as heard if the Holy Ghost had come. There was unity among the twelve men. I believe, but when the Holy Ghost came in and indwelt those twelve men, you have the edifice at Ephesus. So Paul says of them later "Having believed, ye have been sealed with the Ho]y Spirit of promise", Ephesians 1:13.

Ques. I am not clear yet as to the thought of preaching. If I wanted to go out and preach today, I am not quite clear as to whether I should go or not.

J.T. I think the thing is to get the building, the unity. That is what convinces people. Pamphlets or circulars do not help much unless you have what is vital. That is the divine argument. God's argument is vitality. If you have not that you have no argument at all. This is the witness, that God has brought in vitality; the testimony on the part of God to Christ is that He has given to us eternal life. If a man denies this he is making God a liar. A man might deny a pamphlet, or a man's preaching, but to deny the power of God in the Lord's people is making God a liar.

Rem. That is what you get, in 1 John 5.

J.T. Yes, that is God's testimony, and if a man refuses that he makes God a liar, and that is the moral end of him; he is exposed.

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J.P. "As Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith". But it says, "They shall proceed no further for their folly shall be manifest unto all men". 2 Timothy 3:8,9.

J.T. That is it; "Their folly shall be manifest". That is their end morally: nobody listens to them after that, so the great thing is vitality, and that was always the divine argument. God brought in testimony to Christ in the church: the church was set up in vitality. That is the divine argument, the divine proof that God has intervened for blessing.

J.P. Still I think there is abundant encouragement even at the present moment. I would like to say this: I think there will be encouragement to preach until the Lord comes. I believe there will be, and in the measure in which, in our souls, we are brought into the light and good of the things being brought before us, apart from all pretension on our part, there will be encouragement. Do you not think so?

J.T. I think the preaching will go on to the end. I am sure it will, and the building will go on to the end also. I have felt for a good while that the breakdown which has come in in the assembly must of necessity alter things. It would alter things for any person who is exercised about things before God, and he would be much affected by it. God's intention was that what He had set up was to continue as His witness. It had been perfectly established, and it was to be perpetuated. Verse 16 of this chapter, I think, indicates how it was to be perpetuated. Everything requisite was furnished for its perpetuation down here.

.J.P. I was struck with that word "increase", "the increase of the body". Ephesians 4:16. While it was established in perfection, the perfection in which it was established does not preclude the thought of increase and perpetuation.

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Ques. Does verse 13, "Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ", (Ephesians 4:13) have any reference to what we get in Revelation 21:17? The angel measures the wall of the city, according to the measure of a man?

J.T. I think it is that the measure is Christ; do you not think so?

J.P. Oh, yes.

J.T. I think the point here is that God's desire is that there should be perpetuation, and it is evidently written with a view to the exclusion of systematised error. The saints were to be no longer babes. No doubt the Lord had His own personal affections for the church, but that comes out in chapter 5. Evidently in this chapter the thought is more that the divine intention as to the church was that it should be an expression of God here.

J.P. At the present time?

J.T. Yes, and of course it holds good that God is able to do far exceedingly above all we ask or think: indeed, I think many of us have experienced that, notwithstanding the ruin.

J.P. I think the more we retire and retreat from everything that has the character of pretension and assumption the more we shall prove the reality of these things.

J.T. If you see a distinct movement on the part of God in any given place you may rely that it is going to spread, because the movement is of the Holy Ghost, and the Holy Ghost is in the house of God, and so the movement is going to spread wherever the Holy Ghost is.

The house is the sphere of the Spirit; there is exhortation to pray "for all men; for kings, and for all that are in authority"; this is because the house of God is universally beneficent.

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At Babel, Genesis 11, God raised barriers between nations; that is to say, gave them different tongues. Now that the house of God is instituted there are to be no barriers. Every Christian is in the house whatever his nationality.

Ques. Was that not indicated on the day of Pentecost when every man heard his own language?

J.T. The Spirit came in the character of cloven tongues of fire, and sat upon each of them, and they all spoke with tongues. In Acts 2 a list of the languages spoken is given, which comprised pretty well the then known world. They all declared, "We hear them speaking in our own tongues the great things of God". Acts 2:11. God brought in means of communication, and all barriers are overthrown. That is the idea of unity.

Ques. In answer to what He had done in Babel?

J.T. I think it was an annulling of Babel in that way.

Ques. The grace spoken of in this chapter -- is it not available now?

J.T. "To each one of us has been given grace according to the measure of the gift of the Christ". Ephesians 4:7.

Ques. That comes out in the gifts?

J.T. Yes, to everyone, be it brother or sister, grace has been given.

Ques. What place do the sisters have?

J.T. The sisters are very important. To use a figure, I think they are the feet.

Rem. Some one has said the brothers are the eyes and ears.

J.T. Yes, I think that may be so.

Rem. Some sisters are as spiritual as brothers.

J.T. More so: Mary was the most spiritual of all the disciples.

J.P. I think anyone can see that in the scene at the close of the supper, when Mary anointed the

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Lord. Really not one of the apostles was up to that -- not one.

Rem. They found fault with her for doing it.

J.P. She was encouraged by Jesus, however, and did it all the same.

Ques. We cannot do without the sisters then?

J.T. No. All are required: to everyone is given grace according to the measure of the gift of the Christ: all are there for some purpose in the mechanism of the body. The Lord set up the assembly here a perfect mechanism: everyone had received grace, and each one was to fill a place.

Rem. Intelligence as to the state is often found in the sisters.

J.T. Pretty much. You will find what is right is ratified by the sisters.

That is the way the truth comes out. When you get the saints together, a company of spiritual persons, men and women, and any question comes up, if it is right it is ratified: every spiritual person says, It is right; it is true.

Rem. I think you were saying the other day that the brothers seize the mind of God, and the sisters support it.

J.T. I think so. The intelligence was to be in the men, and the state in the women. You get pretty much the idea, I think, in the song of Moses, which conveys an intelligent expression of the situation; but Miriam's song gives an idea as to the state of the people. This is only one's own judgment, and in the most general way; it would be a mistake to attempt to apply it in detail.

Ques. Would you say that Miriam's singing has reference to the Person -- to Jehovah?

J.T. I think it indicated the state of the company. Just as in the case of Mary Magdalene in John 20; while her personal affection is seen there in especial brightness, yet she represents the state of the whole

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company of disciples. They all loved Christ: Peter loved the Lord.

J P. It is wonderful that one should have the privilege of expressing it.

Ques. Why was Miriam struck with leprosy when she spoke against Moses? Was that an indication of the state?

J.T. The Lord said to them, "Wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?" Numbers 12:8. Their speaking against Moses indicated the spirit of rebellion, and you might say they stood for the whole company. Miriam and her brother Aaron spoke against Moses, and the Lord could not permit that. They found fault with him because he had married an Ethiopian woman -- that is, outside Israel. Really, that is a type of Judaism finding fault with Christ for going after the Gentiles. Christ is not going to be restricted by Israel, and so goes outside His own race to the Gentiles.

Rem. I like that remark you made about Christ not being bound to Israel for a bride. It is a good thing for us.

J.T. We should not have come in at all if Miriam and Aaron had had their way.

Ques. Is it not necessary for the sisters to be intelligent?

J.T. If they love the Lord they will be intelligent. You see that in Mary of Bethany. She sat at the Lord's feet, and she became intelligent. I have only spoken as I have in a general way: it seems to me to be right. The women stand pretty much for the silent state; but it is state upon which everything really depends, for if you have not a good state you have nothing.

Ques. Coming back to the passage we have before us, what is meant by verse 7: "But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ"? Ephesians 4:7.

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J.T. I should take that to mean that everyone has received something from Christ and with a view to his filling some place.

J.P. And that is as true now as at any time?

J.T. One would desire, as it were to be in sympathy with God. God would like to move, and have things according to Himself, and I think what we should all be concerned about is yielding ourselves to God at this time. He wishes to use every one of us, and we get grace accordingly.

J.P. "According to the power which works in us".

R.S.S. Every one has a gift from God and it is according to the measure of the gift of the Christ. Does that mean that Christ gives largely, according to Himself?

J.T. I think so; the giving is according to Christ: indicating the kind of giving. It seems to me it means whatever your grace is, it is according to the Lord's measure, and in that way it is perfect.

Rem. I think you said that love is a gift.

J.T. Love? Well, I do not know exactly. Love is nature. Love is the source of giving -- do you not think so?

Rem. Yes, but I was thinking of the exhortation to covet the best gifts, and then love is mentioned as the greatest.

J.T. It is shown to be the more excellent way.

R.S.S. Love is that in which the gift would be exercised.

J.T. Exactly: in love you exercise the gift.

Ques. That would be the measure of it, would you say?

J.T. To each one of us is given some distinctive grace, but as to love, that is our nature derived from God. If you have not love you are nothing -- simply nothing. You are of no account at all.

J.P. I think, Mr. S., your last remark was very

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good. You said love is that in which your gift is exercised. In the beginning of this chapter we get, "Bearing with one another in love". Ephesians 4:2.

R.S.S. And it is in lowliness and meekness. You were saying a little while ago that that is the place in which we are to abide.

Rem. I wish you would say a word about grace, because we have to go on with all kinds of people, some congenial, some not: and we see so much in the Scriptures in regard to grace. We need grace continually in connection with each other in our walk here.

J.T. Well, I think the idea of grace is that it belongs to royalty. I doubt whether anybody can be gracious unless he is morally royal.

R.S.S. The expression "Your gracious majesty" suggests that.

J.T. Yes, and I think the thought is right. I was thinking of David. When the Lord had established him king over all Israel, then he would act like a king; he showed kindness to Mephibosheth. I think that is the thought -- acting like a king.

J.P. His true royalty comes out in that inquiry, "Is there not yet any of the house of Saul, that I may shew the kindness of God unto him?" 2 Samuel 9:1. That is royal grace, is it not?

Rem. Now please bring it down to us.

J.T. It takes a truly great man to be gracious.

R.S.S. But there is an immense difference between grace and condescension.

Ques. What do you mean by a great man?

J.T. A truly great man can become small because he is in the dignity of what he is with God, and in the knowledge and liberty of that he can become anything down here. He is great enough to become smaller than anybody, "Less than the least of all saints". Ephesians 3:8.

J.P. You see it in the blessed Lord: "For ye

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know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich". 2 Corinthians 8:9.

Rem. And He also washed the disciples' feet.

J.T. Yes, and this was to be continued among the saints.

As to our brother's question, as to believers being gracious toward one another: in the chapter we have before us the apostle is referring to something distinctive being given to each and not to conduct; but grace is what should mark us in our relations towards one another. I think love is to be the motive power of all our conduct towards each other. Love is really the ground-work of everything; the one thing you can fall back upon the one thing that never fails.

Ques. He speaks in verse 15 of "holding the truth in love". What do you think he means by that?

J.T. That is what I thought of: love is the motive-spring of all. You hold the truth in love, riot in your intellect.

J.P. In Ephesians 1 we get, "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy arid without blame before him in love". Ephesians 1:4. That is really the secret of our ability to maintain family manners. You bear with one another in love; you hold the truth in love and the body edifies itself in love.

J.T. The Lord intended to establish that which would be invulnerable. If Christians are together in love Satan has no inlet; there is no possibility of an inlet for him.

J.P. So love is "the bond of perfectness" in Colossians 3:14.

J.T. Yes, love is that, perhaps, of which we know the least. It is my impression that most do not know much about the land, which is the sphere of the love.

Ques. Is that what the gates of hell shall not prevail against?

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J.T. The living stones put together The intention was that they should be invulnerable -- no point of inlet. There was to be no breach on that structure, on that fortress. The practical working of it is in this way: If someone comes to you and tells you something about a certain brother, perhaps something bad, love will stand by you there. That is an attack of the devil to get in, and now the only resource is love, hence it is that love never fails -- never, and so that is the thing to cultivate.

Ques. What is the point of verse 27 of this chapter: "Neither give place to the devil"?

J.T. That is in connection with anger; it is your own faults there, but the principle holds good. The point of the enemy is to get inside. He did eventually succeed in this; he set his throne within, and hence captured the whole thing.

Rem. I have noticed when man builds, as we get it in the tower of Babel, he uses slime for mortar, but when you come to the living stones being built together to a holy temple, they grow together, and I take it they are cemented together in love.

J.T. Yes, and I think in the case of the tower of Babel, the material used for building and the cement were distinct things. It is not so in God's building the cement is inherent in the stones.

Ques. And would you say that is love?

J.T. Yes. It is the one thing that never fails. If we stand by love, love will stand by us.

JR Indeed it will.

Rem. Scripture says without it we are but sounding brass.

J.T. We are nothing at all.

J.P. If we were larger spiritually, we would prove what our brother has said: we would prove the invulnerability of divine love.

J.T. Now when the apostle speaks of everyone having received grace according to the measure of

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the gift of the Christ, he proceeds to put the giving on its own proper basis: it is from an ascended Christ; then he goes on to specify the gifts.

J.P. That is, what he proceeds to specify is distinctive gifts; but when it comes to a question of grace, "To every one of us is given grace". Ephesians 4:7. Is that what you mean?

J.T. Yes, he specifies gifts afterwards: "He gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers". Ephesians 4:11.

Rem. That is a good deal like 1 Corinthians 12. He speaks of the body there, and all the members.

J.T. Here it is that everyone has received grace; there that each member has some office to perform; whether it be conspicuous or not, each member is necessary to the body. In 1 Corinthians 12, when he speaks of gifts he speaks of them as in the church, not in the body.

W.H.F. The distinctive gifts were given in connection with the victory of Christ.

J.T. I think it is a great thing to see, that having led captivity captive, He gave gifts unto men.

Rem. They were given in regard to the church.

J.T. In 1 Corinthians 12 the apostle takes up the figure of the human body; he speaks of that, and then makes application to the Corinthians. They were "the body of Christ, and members in particular", (1 Corinthians 12:27) and you cannot exclude any from that; but, as a company of Christians, there were gifts there. God had set the gifts in the assembly; not in the body, but in the assembly.

Rem. I have noticed that the evangelist is not mentioned among the gifts in 1 Corinthians.

J.T. I should not expect it there, because Corinth was not the church in bloom. It was only the seed that had been planted there, the foundation only was there.

Ques. You would expect it from Ephesus?

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Rem. I thought the evangelist planted the seed.

J.T. Paul had planted the seed at Corinth, but there was very little there which the evangelist, could go out from.

R.S.S. The unity and the activity of the blessing were lacking. The Spirit was there, but the fruit of the Spirit was not to be seen.

J.T. There was nothing there for an evangelist to go out from. There was division there: you would not expect evangelists there. That is pretty much the state of things at the present time. You would expect evangelists from Ephesus because there was love there. In his epistle to the Ephesians, the apostle dwells upon love (the nature of God) and that was in the saints at Ephesus. I can understand evangelisation from Ephesus because at Ephesus there was increase, the increase of God, and that is love. It is not a number of people, the increase of God is love.

J.P. I noticed in speaking of Corinth, you said the foundation was there, but the blessing and unity were not there. Now in Ephesus the unity and blessing are there, so it is summer-time, everything is in bloom, and you get evangelisation from Ephesus.

J.T. That is the idea. I think the labourer awaits the precious fruits of the earth. The man who sews the seed sows in hope; waits for the precious fruits of the earth, and that comes to pass in Ephesus. The possession of the Spirit, either in an individual or collective way, is of course blessing, but blessing is more properly the effect of the Spirit -- life. Life is evidenced in love (1 John 3:14).

J.P. It is most interesting and encouraging that, while there is not much outwardly here now, it is winter-time, and you cannot look for bloom and fruit in the winter-time; still the Holy Ghost is here, and what I have noticed has been greatly

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encouraging and intensely interesting to me. You take a little company of believers anywhere, if they are going on together as they should, according to God, you will generally find, it may be in little measure, but I think you will find there is a measure of fruit there. People, one and another, are affected, and then they are converted, and I think when they are converted under those conditions they are generally properly converted.

J.T. Yes, you see the happy faces they wear. I often think of the present popular system of evangelisation. It is the most heartless thing to leave people just where you find them; still it professes to be love. They find a poor man fallen among thieves and profess to pour in the oil and wine, and then they leave him exposed to the robbers. There is not a bit of heart in it. Do you think an evangelist from Ephesus would act like that? He had a home into which to bring them.

J.P. The Samaritan did not do that in Luke 10. He sat him on his own beast, took him to an inn, and arranged with the inn-keeper for the man's comfort and care until he should come again.

Ques You could not look for much now though, could you?

J.T. No, you do not get much unless you get pillars: men of spiritual strength raised up. As was said in a former reading, it is a great thing to get people in touch with spiritual men: men of strength and stability. Of course you would always endeavour to direct men to Christ personally, and connect them with Him in the faith of their souls.

J.P. I believe there is every encouragement to go on according to God. I think what you will find is that we shall be supported.

J.T. There is no change in God: He is still "able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us". Ephesians 3:20.

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J.P. it would be a poor thing for us to come together to take up these precious Scriptures, if these things were not to be made good in our souls.

J.T. Yes, there would be poor comfort in that, but the comfort is you have Christ and the saints, and the thing is to go to work now in the light of what is in these Scriptures.

J.P. I feel it is an immense privilege to be here for Christ at the present time.

Ques. Would you say it will be the winter-time of the assembly until the Lord comes?

J.T. We cannot look for anything public now; no blooming now. We have to wait for the time when Israel will blossom and fill the face of the earth with fruit. But I think everything will emanate morally from the church, as that in which Christ is to shine out.

Ques In a sense we wait for His call, "Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away: for lo, the winter is past", etc. Song of Songs 2:10,11. Is that it?

J.T. That has reference to Israel. The winter-time for Israel is probably the time when they go through their sorrows and tribulations, but then the time of singing is coming. "The voice of the turtle is heard in our land". Song of Songs 2:12. That refers to the coming day. "Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away", He says; that will be the Lord's word to Israel in the future.

J.P. Do you not think the Lord would distinctly turn us to Himself at this time, and away from the thought of publicity? I have had the idea that the Lord is going to have a very bright finish, but in saying that, I do not mean that the Lord is going to do some great outward thing to attract the attention of people publicly, but like what you see in the end of the Old Testament. Really Jehovah was not defeated He had a bright finish. If you take the little company in Malachi, and then connect it with

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the opening of Luke there is the little company there. It was really a bright finish -- was it not? I believe the Lord will have a bright finish, but we must give up this idea of publicity, give up the idea of being something in the midst of a corrupted and nearly apostate Christendom.

Ques. "He came unto his own, and his own received him not". John 1:11. I suppose that is equally true at the present time, is it not?

J.T. If the Lord came to Christendom today He would not be received; that I am sure of.

Rem. I suppose what we get in the Lord's message to Philadelphia would be for us now.

J.T. The great thought from Thyatira onwards for the Lord's people was the coming of the Lord. "What ye have hold fast till I shall come". Revelation 2:25.

In speaking of Sardis He does not say He holds the seven stars: He is not supporting what is public at all. He simply says He has the seven stars. Philadelphia presents what the faithful are to Christ in the midst of the general unfaithfulness. Just as Mr. P. said regarding the remnant in Malachi, "They shall be mine, saith the Lord of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels". Malachi 3:17.

J.P. Would you say a word about what comes out in chapter 6: I mean the conflict? Is it not the assembly standing here for the testimony of God that involves the conflict?

J.T. I think so. I think the house of God involves the breaking-up of the world-system.

J.P. Yes, I have been helped during these meetings by what has been said of baptism. Baptism really involves the destruction of the whole world-system.

Now, would you say a word in regard to the conflict in chapter 6?

J.T. I take it to be in connection with the dwelling-place of God down here. God was pleased

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to come down and dwell amongst a little company of people, who disclaimed any relation to the world; who refused and abandoned it; and indeed it was Christ who set it up, so you would expect Satan to do his utmost to break up and destroy that. I think in Ephesus the company formed there were brought into the full intelligence of God's mind in regard to the universe, in regard to His counsels; because the apostle says he shunned not to declare unto them the whole counsel of God. I think in Ephesus you would expect that every testimony of God would find a place in the affections of the saints; that every single thought of God would have a place in their affections; they would be in sympathy with God, because they loved Him. If you love God you are in sympathy with Him, and interested in every one of His.

J.P. So, having declared the whole counsel of God unto them, they were in the light of that; thus you get another characteristic expression in Ephesians, "All things".

J.T. Yes, quite so.

J.P. "All things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth". Ephesians 1:10. It is a wonderful thing that the saints will reign with Christ over the universe, and I suppose the testimony of God maintained in the assembly here, really embraces God's rights, which of course are made good in Christ, and will be maintained in Christ. It involves a testimony of that, and so, as you said, it brings out the utmost opposition of the enemy.

J.T. Satan has a position in the heavenlies, and from thence he rules and controls the world-system. The testimony of the church involves his being cast out of the heavenlies, and the complete destruction of the system which he has established. From this point of view the Epistle to the Ephesians answers to Jerusalem: it sets forth the full heavenly position

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and office of the church. All light and rule issue from Christ through the church. Conflict is in this connection.

Rem. They never got the enemy out of Jerusalem until David's day.

J.T. If the Ephesian saints stood by all the rights of Christ, and the testimony of God, you may depend Satan would do all in his power to break them up. The apostle says, "Our struggle is not against blood and flesh, but against principalities, against authorities, against the universal lords of this darkness, against spiritual power of wickedness in the heavenlies". Ephesians 6:12.

J.P. Where is the source of all satanic power now? Is it not in the heavenlies? Do you not think that Satan has some apprehension of the fact that the assembly is going to occupy the place that he now occupies?

J.T. That is what involves the conflict very largely; he knows perfectly well what is in the mind of God in regard to the assembly.

Ques. Would you say the church stands in witness and testimony of that?

J.T. That is the testimony of the church: witness to the rights of Christ, and not only that, but its place is in the heavenlies, and its place being there means the overthrow of Satan.

Ques. What is your thought of the heavenlies?

J.T. Light, government, the source of good and all that.

J.P. So in Revelation 12:10, when Satan is cast out, immediately you get that wonderful outburst, "Now is come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ".

Rem. You cannot dispossess the enemy now.

J.T. You are not dispossessing the enemy now:

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the conflict lies in your standing for the truth; for the rights of Christ.

J.P. It is after you put on the panoply of God that you stand.

J.T. We are now in the scene of the testimony: you have got to the centre of it, so to say, and what you have to do is to stand. You are in the struggle: hold your ground. That is the point.

J.P. That is what it states: "That ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand". Ephesians 6:13.

J.T. The conflict is in the land, you know. You are in the land, so to say.

Ques What does he mean by "having done all"?

J.P. Having overcome, That is the "all".

Rem. As soon as the Lord was anointed He came into conflict; and it was the same with David.

Ques. Will you speak a little of the church taking the place Satan now occupies? I was thinking of the scripture, "Ye have reigned as kings without us". 1 Corinthians 4:8.

J.T. Instead of suffering the Corinthians were reigning. It is the one who suffers that will reign with Him.

Rem. After you put on the whole armour of God, you take the sword of the Spirit -- the word of God.

J.T. The word of God; it is that which you hold in your soul in love. I take it to be the expression of the mind of God held in love: not simply in the mind, but in love.

Ques. What is your thought in regard to the "beasts" and the "lion"?

J.T. The beasts were at Ephesus, and the lion in Rome. Paul says, "The Lord stood with me, and I was delivered out of the lion's mouth". 2 Timothy 4:17. I think it was the supreme antagonistic power against God, supported by the devil; that is what Nero was. The lion is the king of animals in strength. Beasts are men energised by Satan.

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Ques. Why do you think the enemy is so active at the present time?

J.T. Because there is something of Christ here: that is what he is after. People may talk about men, teachers, etc., the stir is all about Christ; it is all a question of Christ.

Rem. It is very important to see that.

J.T. That is the whole point..

Ques. Is it not a mercy of God that the church can exist down here? If the enemy had full sway he would sweep it away. It is a mercy that the enemy can do nothing beyond what he is permitted.

J.T. In regard to the Gentile powers, the enemy cannot do much with them, but when God calls them to account He will do a great deal with them. God is still using the Gentile powers, but in the day coming He will have finished with them: He gives them up to the devil. The devil gives all his power to the beast, and the beast makes war against the saints.

Ques. What form did the beasts at Ephesus take, religious or irreligious?

J.T. I do not know. I suppose they were peculiarly fitted to withstand the testimony, whatever form they took. The apostle mentions some people: Alexander, the coppersmith, for instance. He says of him, He "did me much evil ... he hath greatly withstood our words". 2 Timothy 4:14.

Ques. You would say then if a man has really put on all the panoply of God, Satan will not be able to touch him?

J.T. No, God has provided us with an impenetrable armour.

Rem. Someone just said Satan can do nothing more than God allows.

J.T. I think if we have all the armour on, and are in the front ranks we are not exposed. It is in

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the rear that danger lies. The front is the safest place. I have found it so.

Ques. It is best to get as far front as you can, do you not think so?

J.P. Oh, yes it is always those behind that are exposed. It was the two and one-half tribes who first came under the power of the enemy. Gilead taken: that meant the two and one-half tribes.

W.H.F. So it is really the safest place to be -- in the front.

Rem. It is important to see that what arouses Satan is Christ. I think sometimes we think it is ourselves.

J.T. He does not care much for us: it is a question of Christ. If Christ is seen in anyone, it is then they come into conflict.

Ques. It is a question of His body at the present time - is it not?

J.T. In a way.

Ques. You said the conflict was in connection with the house?

J.T. I think it is. That comes out in Ephesians. For the reason that in the house you find every testimony of God: that is bound to bring the house into conflict. It is inevitable.

Rem. So the more you are set to be in the light of what is in the house, the more you will be brought into conflict.

Ques. Do you draw a distinction between the "grievous wolves" and the "beasts"? The grievous wolves scattered the flock, and then men arose teaching perverted things, to draw disciples after themselves.

J.T. That gives pretty much the history of things from Ephesus downwards. I think, however, the beasts were those with whom the apostle had to fight those who were wholly antagonistic to the

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testimony. I should take them to be the direct agents of the devil to oppose the testimony.

Ques Every one set for the purpose of God comes into conflict then?

J.T. He does, and it is then the need of the armour comes in. The armour really refers to state: righteousness, truth, etc.

Rem In our minds it has been connected with what is external.

J.P. Taking account of terms used, it must be a question of state. "Having your loins girt about with truth", etc. Ephesians 6:14.

J.T. The moral conditions the Lord finds on His return are exactly opposed to the different parts of the armour, as we get them in 2 Thessalonians.

J P. The armour spoken of here corresponds to the armour worn by the Lord when He comes out to destroy the world-system. You get it in Isaiah 59.

J.T. The judgment executed by the Lord in power corresponds with the testimony now rendered by the church. He will destroy the world-system, and this will mean universal salvation.

J.P. The armour really means the characteristics of Christ produced in the saints now by the Spirit: what is produced in us now will characterise Christ when He comes publicly to overthrow the whole system of the world.

Ques. In the power of that saints overcome the world now, is that it? Would that make a place of salvation for the saints at the present moment, I mean by standing against all adverse power?

J.P. I think if you find some standing there is a rallying-point.

J.T. In Isaiah 59 it says, "When the enemy shall come in like a flood the Spirit of the Lord shall lift up a standard against him", Isaiah 59:19. That is a rallying-point, and it is a very great mercy, when the Spirit of the Lord does that.

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Ques. That would mean a standard for the moment, in connection with a few who have the armour on?

J.T. The standard would be pulled down quickly unless supported by men who have the armour on. When the Spirit raises a standard He supports it, and it becomes a rallying point for the saints. The thing is to perceive what the standard is: it requires eyesight to see where the standard is.

Rem. You have spoken largely of the world-system, and of God's system. Will you please give a word of distinction?

J.T. God's system is pervaded by love to begin with. It is built up wholly in love, and the world-system is built up in hatred. That is pretty much what marks them both, and the question is, which do you prefer? The one is salvation the other destruction.

J.P. God's system is founded on righteousness, and built up in love; the world-system is founded on lawlessness and built up in hatred.

Rem. You see that in Cain and Abel.

J.T. The principle of it is there.

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THE SON OF MAN COMING IN HIS KINGDOM

Matthew 16:28; Matthew 17:1 - 8

The thought I have, beloved friends, is to seek to engage your hearts with the Lord in relation to His own sphere of things and for this I have chosen this scripture in Matthew. I might have taken up a parallel passage in either Mark or Luke, and spoken from it, but I have chosen Matthew's account of the transfiguration because of the way he puts it "There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom"Matthew 16:28. It is the Son of man viewed in relation to the kingdom in perfection and glory; and because of this it has a peculiar charm. Not that the others are not very blessed; they are; but I think, if you will consider it, that you will admit that Matthew's account has a very peculiar charm -- at least to those who love the Lord. I think every Christian heart would say, I should like to see the Son of man coming in His kingdom.

As I said, I might have taken up a parallel passage in Mark or Luke, but it is not quite the same thought in either. In Mark it is the kingdom of God in power. Now I should like to see the kingdom of God in power; but in a certain sense one might see the kingdom of God in power, and not see the Son of man at all. To give you an idea of what I mean: I have seen the power of Great Britain oftentimes, and proved it. I lived in Great Britain, and in the colonies of Great Britain, and in both places I had abundant evidence of the power of the kingdom; but there are a great many British subjects who have never seen the king. I, for one, saw the king but once, but, as I said, I have oftentimes seen demonstrated the power of the kingdom. It is one thing to see the power of the kingdom, and quite another to see the king in state.

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I think the point in Mark is the kingdom of God come in power, and in Luke it is the kingdom in itself, and that is another thought. I am sure there is wonderful instruction in each presentation of the kingdom. It is one thing to see the kingdom, and another to see the kingdom in power; and another, to see the Son of man coming in His kingdom.

Now you will find you have to ascend, as it were, in order to get a glimpse of the kingdom, especially if you are to see it from the point of view last mentioned. I think the kingdom does come down to the valley; and if you are in the valley, where the power of Satan is, you are exceedingly thankful if the kingdom of God in power comes down there. It is just what you need: I think it is just what is required in the valley. When I speak of the valley, I refer to what comes out in the latter part of this chapter (Matthew 17). What you come in contact with in the valley is the power of evil. That is where man is: man is in the valley, where Satan dominates, and the kingdom of God has come in power into the valley. There is no possible hope for man in the valley unless the kingdom descends into it and that is, I think, the idea of the gospel: it is that it has pleased God to come down in power into the domain of Satan, where man is, and to establish His kingdom in power there, for the deliverance and protection of man.

Now, before I proceed to call your attention to what is in the passage I have read, I should like to say just a word about the way things are presented in the gospel of Matthew. I think Matthew gives you the entire history of the kingdom, but more particularly as connected with human responsibility: the different phases of it are presented in a series of parables. But there is not only the responsibility but also the inevitable accompaniment of it -- failure. Failure is seen in each, but you will find that in

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result things are adjusted by a divine hand. Now I think there is great encouragement in that. It is an immense comfort to see that whatever confusion may arise in what God has set up here in connection with man's responsibility, in the end all is divinely adjusted.

The parables I refer to begin with chapter 18 and end with chapter 25. Much confusion is detailed in the history, but in the end all is perfectly adjusted; the Lord relegates everything to its own place. Now, it is an immense encouragement in a day like this, to know that the Lord has foreseen all that would come in; He knew what things were coming to in the hands of men, but He has never given up the reins; hence every parable that He sets forth here ends with a perfect adjustment of affairs.

Take, for instance, the parable of the labourers. Did not the Lord vindicate Himself? Did He not adjust matters? Did He not show clearly that He was perfectly right in what He did? Then in chapter 22 (I only speak of these as illustrations) you get the man who came in to the feast without a wedding garment. The Lord adjusted that: the king saw to it. I do not know how the guests felt about it, whether they were offended at the man coming in unsuitable attire, whether they were in sympathy with the king or not. It does not say how they were affected, but certainly the man was entirely out of accord with the scene, and the king was quick to discern this. He says, "How camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment?" Matthew 22:12. The king very quickly removed him. "Bind him", he says, "hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth". Matthew 25:13. The man found his own place. In this way there was divine adjustment.

Then in chapter 25 you get the parable of the virgins. The wise virgins did not seem to be much

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concerned about the unwise virgins not having oil in their vessels but as the latter went to buy, the bridegroom came, and what was the result? Things were perfectly adjusted. The wise virgins found their place. Who gave them their place? The bridegroom. They entered in to the marriage; but what about the others? The door was shut: they found their place. It was not arbitrary: it was their place morally. What business had they in the bridal chamber at the wedding feast? They had no oil in their vessels. They had no place there morally, for the bridegroom had no place in their hearts, and hence the door was shut.

So it is as you proceed. Take the parable of the talents. The Lord adjusted matters in regard to those who had received the talents. Each man got his reward. Each entered into the joy of his lord except one, and he was incapable of entering into it. He got what was due to him morally; that is to say, what he had was taken away from him. He judged the lord to be an austere, hard man; a hard taskmaster such as Pharaoh had been. His state was demonstrated by this; he really did not know the lord at all, and his talent is taken away from him. He is cast into outer darkness. The same principle comes out later on in the chapter. There are the nations, and when you come to the end, everything is perfectly adjusted by the Lord. I have no doubt all the parables, including the one just mentioned, refer to the present moment, which I might call the church period. But the Lord is not content only to adjust matters in regard to the present period: He goes right on to the end. The Son of man sits on the throne of His glory, and all the nations are brought before Him. Statesmen in every country of the world are at their wits end to know just what to do, but the Lord will not fail to adjust matters in regard to the nations. It is not arbitrary. The Lord has a

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perfect right to assign the nations to any place He pleases, but He assigns them to the place they belong to morally. There is nothing arbitrary about God: everything is adjusted according to the nature of God, Each finds his own place. Take Judas, for instance. What place belonged to him morally? He got to the place to which he belonged. No other place would suit him, and he would suit no other place; hence that is the place he reaches. Every nation will find its place. The Lord regulates the place of the nations according to their treatment of His brethren. The wicked "shall go away into everlasting punishment but the righteous into life eternal". Matthew 25:46. Now, that is a very great encouragement in a day like this. Most of us, if we are concerned about divine things, are affected by the conditions prevailing in what we call the church. But the Lord will adjust it all. You cannot adjust them, neither can I, but the Lord can and will. The Lord knows all that is going on, and He will assign everything to its own place. You may depend upon it you will find your place wherever you are, or whatever your state is, you will find your own place. We shall all find our own places. In a certain sense we are all creating our own places, and to say that is not at all trenching upon the authority or rights of Christ. The Lord will designate each one's place, but the place He designates will be the one to which we belong. The Lord Jesus Christ will give the place which belongs to each morally.

I think that is a very great encouragement in a day like this, because it turns you to Christ in all the confusion around. Your heart is turned to the Lord the One who is capable of adjusting everything.

Now I have only referred to these parables in order to show you the present state of things, but I wish to dwell upon the thing in perfection. As I said before, and as you can see from the parables, every

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single one involves failure; and why? Because human responsibility is supposed in every instance. The devil has always watched what God has set up: he has been interested from the very outset in regard to divine operations, and his great aim in regard to anything God has instituted has been to capture it. That has been the devil's aim from the very outset. We know how he captured humanity at the beginning. Man was perfectly constructed. God was the creator of man, and of everything, and, having created all, He expressed His approval of His own work. All was "very good". Everything God has created or instituted has been in perfection. So God creates man in perfection, and sits in judgment on His own work, and pronounces it "very good". Now, I think the devil's point was to capture it. Man was the best God had created, and would he not be a wonderful servant to the devil? Could not Satan use man? I believe that was Satan's thought, and the same holds good as to everything God created and established down here. I could go over the Scriptures following the account of the creation, and point out how everything that God set up down here fell a prey to the devil. Why? Because it was committed to human responsibility. The result was this: Satan was more than a match for man, and hence whatever has been committed into the hands of men has become a prey to the devil, and thus has it been with the church. One has to admit the success of the enemy in capturing the church and the explanation of it is this, that it was committed into the hands of men. The church was set up in perfection by God: there was nothing lacking. Everything that was required for the comfort, satisfaction and support of the Lord's people was furnished; and not only for that moment, but for the perpetuation of it; but as in the hands of men it was captured by the devil. And what has he done with it? He has done more with

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it than with anything he ever touched. Further, wherever God has moved in the way of recovery, Satan in turn has succeeded in capturing the result of the movement; and for the same reason -- failure on the part of those responsible. Take the Reformation: that was a mighty movement of God. It was a movement of the Spirit of God. How long did it last? As a purely divine movement it was very brief. The leaders, instead of leaning on the Lord alone, accepted the patronage of the world and in this way fell a prey to the devil. I speak with reverence of those men; but as a matter of fact they all became system-makers. I do not know of one of them who did not become a system-builder, and in that way they were used of the devil. I am not saying they were not Christians: unquestionably they were, and also servants of God; but the devil was more than a match for them, and the result was they fell under the power of the world, and began to build up another system. Even Luther set up a system. They began to build up another system in the world. That is what Rome had done. Rome was the result of the original capture of the church. When Satan captured the church he set up his throne there. "Where the throne of Satan is", the Lord says (Revelation 2:13). Do you think the Lord is not observant of what is going on? He knows everything that is going on; He is perfectly aware of what has been carried into the church. He knows how Satan has got in, and what use Satan has made of the church, that he has set his throne in the church. There is more wickedness committed in the name of the church than ever has been committed before in the history of the world. That is the church in the hands of the devil. Look at her there. A public market for the souls of men! That is what things came to. That is what Rome was until the Lord mercifully came in at the time of the Reformation; and the devil then,

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as I said, captured that too, and has built up Protestantism out of it and he has been adding material to this within the memory perhaps of some of us here. There was that remarkable movement of the last century. What has been the outcome? The devil has captured it. The bulk of those affected by the movement, primarily, turned aside from the truth and fell into system.

That has been the history of things, and if you are not in dependence every single moment on the Spirit of God you may be captured. Depend upon it, the devil is bent upon your capture. He does not care much about you if the Spirit is not moving in you: he will leave you alone: you are not of much account to him; but if he finds a man with the Spirit of God active in him, he will capture him if he can. Look at the apostle's exhortation to Timothy, to labour patiently with those who are in error, "That they may awake up out of the snare of the devil, who are taken by him for his will". 2 Timothy 2:26. That is the purpose for which the devil captures men. He is building up a system, and wants the very best servants he can find, and those are servants who are enlightened by the gospel. We are never out of danger. If there is any movement of God the devil is bent upon its capture. He has captured everything that came into the world from God. If that marvellous structure reared up in the beginning of the Acts by God has fallen a prey to the devil, you are in danger, and I am in danger; we are all in danger of falling a prey to the world-system. It may be you are not in much danger from Rome; I think that snare was broken a good many hundred years ago, but there are other dangers. Probably the greatest danger in this country is prosperity. This is the most prosperous country in the world today, and we are living in it. The greatest danger we are exposed to is the prosperity of the country. A great

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majority of people here have emigrated to this country. Did they come here for God? I do not think so. I think most people have come here because there is prosperity here. The devil will give you prosperity so long as you yield yourself to him. He has a great many ways of helping you. He would hold out prospects to you. It does not take much to become prosperous in America. Any fairly intelligent person who comes here bent upon being prosperous can succeed, and I think if you are a Christian the devil will help you. It is policy on his part to do so.

Now I have not touched much on my subject. It is because I feel concerned about what I have spoken of. I think it is a most essential thing to be on our guard against the world-system. If there is any movement of God, you may depend upon it the enemy will do his utmost to capture the result of it. The world in its varied features is his great net, his great snare. What was that by which the children of Israel were captured? The world-system. Babylon was the great system Satan had been working at for hundreds of years.

Do you think he did not set a snare? The moral end of the church as such is Thyatira. Ephesus was properly the public beginning of the church, and the history of the church publicly closes with Thyatira. When we look at things in the face it must have a very humbling effect upon us, but now what we have to do is to look up to the Lord, and wait for His coming. "The Lord shall deliver me", says Paul. If you do not remain close to the Lord, you may depend upon it that the devil will capture you. The Lord is the only One that can deliver you. He "shall deliver me from every wicked work". 2 Timothy 4:18.

But now I want to say a word about Matthew 17. What I should like to engage your hearts with for a moment is a scene without failure. Christ is presented

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in Revelation as the First and the Last; the faithful and true Witness, the beginning of the creation of God. The point is, He is the faithful and true Witness. Now it is to Him that we want to have our hearts directed. I think the Lord took pleasure in taking Peter, James, and John up to the mount of transfiguration. Have you ever been up there? It is your privilege. I do not think Peter, James, and John felt quite at home there. Peter said it was good to be there, but at the same time I do not think he felt quite at home there. In a certain sense, the time for it had not come. You will remember that in the end of the chapter before us, Peter said of the Lord that He certainly would pay the tribute. What did that mean? It meant that Peter did not understand that the Lord was a Son; and he certainly did not understand that he himself was a son in the thought of God. Now, it is your privilege and mine to know that we are sons. We have had this before us a good deal, but it is our privilege to know that we are sons, and I think what that means is that von can go up. Sonship refers to Israel also, but I think in our case the thought of sonship involves that we can go up. It is our privilege to go up. In Ephesians 2 we read, God "has raised us up together, and made us sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus". Ephesians 2:6. That indicates our great position. When I say we can go up, what I mean is that our place is in heaven, and there is nothing to hinder us from ascending; and so I should like to call your attention to this passage in Matthew in that connection. The Lord takes Peter, James, and John up into a high mountain apart in order to give them a blessed sight of Himself in relation to His kingdom. It is not Christ in relation to the kingdom in the hands of men, in responsibility, down here. The parables give that. The Lord is seen in relation to the kingdom in every phase of it in the parables, but I think the

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Lord would feast the eyes of His people on Himself in relation to His own blessed kingdom on high. He says, "There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom". Matthew 16:28. I was saying that Mark presents the kingdom of God come in power, and Luke presents the kingdom in itself. I take it the kingdom of God is righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost as Luke presents it, but here it is the Son of man. To see the Lord in this connection is a wonderful sight; and it requires that you should ascend. We have to go up in order to see it. In a sense it is Christ in relation to the coming age; and I believe the Holy Ghost would enable us at the present time to get a glimpse of it. I think you can read between the lines in the address to the church in Philadelphia that the saints there saw something of it. I believe the thought there is that their hearts were engaged with Christ -- Christ in relation to His own system of things.

These three disciples were nothing in themselves, but look at what they saw! The Lord was transfigured before them. "His face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light". Matthew 17:2. Look at the blessed Person there! See Him as compared with the kings of the earth. There is nothing morally beautiful about any of them. But look at Him! He goes up quietly to the mountain with the disciples whom He loved, arid is transfigured before them. His face shone as the sun, and His raiment became white as the light. There is that blessed Man alone with Moses and Elias, and the Father comes into view. Ah, there is no failure there, no human responsibility there! It is the Son of man in His kingdom. Would you not like to see the Son of man in His kingdom? "The Son of man" is a marvellous expression and He is here viewed as coming in His kingdom. Would you not like to see that sight? To be taken up to

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the mount of transfiguration? Peter tells us about it: "We have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty". 2 Peter 1:16. Talk of majesty! There is majesty. In Christ you see majesty. Peter further says, "He received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased". 2 Peter 1:17. Doubtless the Lord took this way of confirming and making things sure to the apostles, who were to witness to the kingdom. Peter was a witness: it was no fable: We "were eyewitnesses of his majesty". If you want to be confirmed in regard to the truth, you have, in the power of the Spirit, to be a witness of the Son of man coming in His kingdom, and that is our privilege. I feel how unequal I am to dilate upon it, but it is marvellous, especially in view of the dark background, the history of all that had been before upon the earth. As I said, there was not one single trait of moral beauty in any of the Gentile monarchs. Nothing for God. But here is the embodiment of all moral beauty. That is what Christ is: that is what the Son of man is. What a sight to see such a Person coming in His kingdom!

Now it was a wonderful thing for Peter, James, and John, but they did not understand it. Indeed one might say they were not sons in their heart's affections and minds. Think of Peter talking about a tabernacle for Moses and Elias! The voice of the Father said, "This is my beloved Son". Matthew 17:5. Had they really known sonship, how entranced they would have been in that blessed scene! As it was they were not equal to it, but it seems to me that Paul was equal to it, and doubtless Peter, and all the apostles, afterwards, when they had received the Spirit, and I think you can see in the church in Philadelphia an

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appreciation of Christ in relation to His kingdom. I think it is a marvellous truth that Christ should have a kingdom. There were those who had kingdoms before, but now the Lord is going to have a kingdom of His own, and, as I said before, the parables present Christ in relation to the kingdom down here, for the good of man, and He adjusts everything in relation to it; but this wonderful scene on the Mount presents Christ in relation to His own kingdom in its perfection, and the apostles were privileged to be witnesses. As Peter says, To be "eyewitnesses of his majesty". 2 Peter 1:16. Peter could estimate it afterwards. In his epistle he does not tell us anything about the three tabernacles, or about what he said. I think he would then feel what he said to be entirely out of place but he says, "For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty". 2 Peter 1:16. He does not say a word about Moses and Elias, but tells of the majesty of Christ. Now we shall all feast on that in the future, but I think, by the Holy Ghost, we might ascend to the mount of transfiguration, as it were, now, and see what Christ is with God. Did you ever think of that? What Christ is Himself, in relation to God, as His Father, and in relation to His kingdom? He has a kingdom. Is it not a matter of joy to you that He has a kingdom? Do you not love Him? Then, I say, you must be interested in what He has: in what He is coming into. May the Lord enable us to rise to the region of the Spirit! The region of the Holy Ghost is infinitely elevated above the region of this poor world.

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CHRIST IN CONTROL OF THE POWERS OF GOOD AND EVIL

Revelation 1:13 - 17; Revelation 3: 7.

It is important to bear in mind that in all the obligations that may rest upon us here we have to learn how to fulfil them from Christ, and every christian obligation may be seen exemplified in some way in the Lord. Our attention has been directed to the responsibility attaching to Aaron and his sons: they were to abide at the door of the tabernacle seven days, Leviticus 8:35. This was a complete period, and throughout its duration there was a weighty responsibility resting upon the priests -- they were to keep the charge of Jehovah. Now this I take to represent the responsibility which attaches to Christians down here. It may be that you have not accepted this responsibility, but nevertheless it is there for you, and if you take it up you have to learn from Christ how to discharge it according to God. We have to learn everything from Him, and particularly what appertains to the sanctuary. Notice that it was said to Aaron and his sons, "That ye die not". Leviticus 8:35. It was most serious to come short in the fulfilment of the obligation.

In this book the Lord is presented as "the faithful and true witness". Revelation 3:14. In coming into this world Christ charged Himself with all that referred to God, and He maintained it all absolutely and perfectly in every detail. I would notice two salient features of the Lord's ministry: the first was the absolute maintenance of the testimony. The Lord would not deviate for a moment from the testimony of God. He "witnessed", as the apostle tells us, "a good confession". 1 Timothy 6:13. He witnessed for the truth in the presence of Pontius Pilate. He was there for the truth for that He had come into the world, and He

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would die rather than surrender it. The other feature of the Lord's service that I would call attention to is His earnest solicitude for the saints. He says, "Those thou hast given me I have kept". John 17:12. They were the Father's, and so the Lord kept them. In the presence of His enemies and of His death He says, "If therefore ye seek me let these go their way". John 18:8. Speaking generally, these two features indicate that in which we are to serve Christ here, and I allude to them to show that the service we are called to came out in the Lord, and that it is from Him we are to learn how to fulfil it. In the reception of the Spirit, Christians are set in relation to a divine system of things which is set up in the presence of what is antagonistic; it is in this connection that "the charge of the Lord" (Leviticus 8:35) has to be kept, and we have to learn from Christ how this is to be accomplished. We must know what priesthood involves -- what it is to have the ear, hand and foot consecrated in the service of God by the death of Christ and the gift of the Spirit.

In turning to the scriptures I have read, what I wish to enlarge upon, by God's help, is that everything now, whether good or evil, is under the direct control of Christ. It is of all moment that believers should understand that in the fulfilment of their obligations here, everything they have to do with, whether adverse or favourable, is really under the Lord's hand.

It may have been thought that Christ administers in connection with the good only, but the first passage read shows that He controls also what is evil, and what we may account as antagonistic to us. He says to John, "I have the keys of death and of hades". This was doubtless a wonderful encouragement to John, who, as in the presence of the failure of the church, would feel all the more the power of the wicked one. Defection had set in, and when this obtains all

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around us the heart is disposed to give way, and the enemy would do all that is possible to induce us to surrender. He would engage you with the failure, and he would engage you, too, with his own power; he would magnify his resources and ability in your eyes so as to weaken and depress your heart in order that you might falter and give up. In the days of His flesh the Lord encountered Satan in this way, and hence He is capable of sympathising with us. His ministry came in at the close of a dispensation; all was failure in Israel, and defection was found even in those who had been associated with Him in His testimony. In Gethsemane Satan brought death, in all that it really meant as God's judgment, to bear upon His spirit, and at the cross the whole power of the world was arrayed against Him. In the midst of all the Lord stood firm: He laid down His life rather than surrender the truth of God. He established all immutably in resurrection; but I do not dwell on this, but rather on the fact that in the presence of all Satan's power, and in Satan's own domain, the Lord maintained, single-handed, all that was due to God. At that time death and hades were in Satan's hand, as well as all the elements of evil in this world, and all in their fullest power were marshalled against Christ. But He, AS MAN, met all and came out victorious To the overcomer in the church at Laodicea He says, "I also overcame". Revelation 3:21. Hence Christ can enter fully into all that we may, as identified with the truth, encounter in this world.

But our circumstances are very different from what His were: Satan now cannot bring all the power against us that he brought against Christ; he cannot bring death and hades, for instance; for the Lord has the keys of these. He has the keys by right of conquest. We do not need to fear anything which is under the control of Christ in standing for the truth of God down here. In fact, so complete is His

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victory that He has not only the keys of death but death itself is said to be ours, 1 Corinthians 3:22.

It is of all importance that Christians should rightly understand the present situation, and this is particularly patent in view of the failure of the church. Defection in the assembly has not diminished the power of Christ, and this power is not only positive, but also negative, that is, He not only supports us against evil (and in this respect He is almighty), but He also restrains, as He may think fit, the evil itself. The unfaithfulness of the church has served as an occasion to the enemy to re-assert his power; he would lead us to believe that it is as extensive as ever; but the Lord assures John that this is not so: He says, "I have the keys of hades and of death". Revelation 1:18. What the Lord says to John implies that Satan has really no power at all against us. Satan is a conquered foe; he is permitted to remain for God's wise purposes, but he may be removed at any time; in the meantime he is used for the humbling and chastisement of God's people. It is wonderful to see that a Man has thus gained the mastery over Satan. Any one can see that if a man has the keys of anything he has the control of it -- has right of way there. As possessing the keys of hades Christ can shut up Satanic power, or He can limit it.

In Revelation 20 we read of an angel coming down from heaven with a great chain, with which he binds the devil, and casts him into the bottomless pit. The power by which this will be accomplished is already in Christ's hands. The Lord's authority and power will never be any greater than they are at the present moment. At the end of Matthew He says, "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth". Matthew 28:18. It is well to see that God is ever almighty, but it is a more precious thought that all power is now exercised by a Man -- He who laid down His life for us.

No doubt many of us have, at times, observed the

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hand of Christ stretched forth to restrict the forces of evil when they have been marshalled against the truth. What we need to see, therefore, is that whatever may be used against us is really under the hand of Christ -- it cannot move unless He allows it. If the Lord permits Satan to act, it is for discipline, and when sufficient discipline has been administered -- when with chastened spirits we turn to Him -- the enemy will be turned aside and we shall have peace. Of course Satan is still in the heavenlies, and there is conflict in Canaan, and this will continue while we are down here, but this is all really by divine appointment, and it affords us an opportunity to prove our faithfulness to Christ.

In endeavouring to dwell on the administration of Christ in regard to what is evil, I wish also to keep in view the other side -- that He has the key of David. The key of David suggests what is good, for David introduced good and blessing in his day. One great principle in David was recovery. In 1 Samuel 30 this is vividly set forth. Ziklag had been smitten, and the Amalekites had carried all away as a prey. But we are told that "David recovered all", and what was recovered was called "David's spoil". 1 Samuel 30:19,20. In resurrection Christ has abundant "spoil", and He takes pleasure in distributing it. You remember how David sent of what he had taken to the elders of Judah, saying, "Behold a present for you of the spoil of the enemies of the Lord", 1 Samuel 30:26. No doubt what he had taken from the Amalekites had been his before, but it was now the spoil of conquest -- it had been captured from "the enemies of the Lord". It is really Christ who has overthrown the enemies of the Lord, and He is now dispensing to His "friends" the spoil of victory.

Do you not like to consider Christ in that light? We are well assured in our souls that He is a divine Person -- that He is the true God; on this everything

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rests but I delight in contemplating Him entering as Man into conflict with the enemy, and overthrowing him in his own domain, and recovering everything in resurrection. We may say that Satan had carried all away -- man, government, Israel, the temple, and the earth itself had been captured by the enemy; but Christ has recovered all through death and resurrection. As God, Christ has title to all as Creator, but as Man everything is His by right of conquest. Hence it is His spoil. It is immensely strengthening to the soul to get upon this ground. Here defeat is impossible, for what we may fear most is really under the Lord's hand, and so can be disposed of by Him according to His pleasure.

Turn to Psalm 68:18 (New Translation), "Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive thou hast received gifts in man". Christ has gone to the right hand of God, arid He has received gifts as Man. Now what is He going to do with the gifts? He gives them to men down here. This will, doubtless, hold good in the future in regard to Israel, but during the present time the Lord's administration is wholly taken up with the church. He has given all the gifts to the church. The Lord shows His great interest in the church by giving her the gifts, and He has provided for her in this respect during the entire period of her sojourn down here. You must not think for a moment that the gifts are not here: they are here in the Spirit. When the Spirit came from Christ in heaven He brought them all with Him. Those who have gifts fulfil their service for the perfecting of the saints, "for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ". Ephesians 4:12.

Psalm 68: 18 continues: "And even for the rebellious, for the dwelling there of Jah Elohim". Here we have indicated another most important feature of the object the Lord had in view in giving gifts unto men. Although Christ had annulled Satan

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in death, He had not as yet overthrown rebellion in the hearts of men: this would be a protracted work, and would be effected by the work of the Spirit by means of the gifts. When the Lord was here man's rebellious heart was manifested, and when He went to heaven He left all, save disciples, in revolt; Jews and Gentiles were all in rebellion. Nevertheless God would dwell among His people, and hence the gifts were given. Gifts are powers; they are capable of overthrowing rebellion in the hearts of men. And what for? That God might dwell among men. The foundation of the assembly had been laid at Corinth, and God found a place there; but His dwelling-place was disturbed by the activity of man's will in that assembly. On this account Paul had to bring forward the gifts he exercised. In 2 Corinthians 10:4,5, he says, "The arms of our warfare are not fleshly, but powerful according to God to the overthrow of strongholds; overthrowing reasonings and every high thing that lifts itself up against the knowledge of God, and leading captive every thought into the obedience of the Christ; and having in readiness to avenge all disobedience when your obedience shall have been fulfilled". God's dwelling and man's will are incompatible, and in order that God should dwell undisturbed among men the gifts are here to be used effectively, in the power of the Spirit, for the suppression of will as well as "for the perfecting of the saints". Ephesians 4:12. The Lord has placed the gifts here, and their efficiency goes on to the end. It is the privilege of the church to understand that the Lord provides for her in this way. He is in supreme control of all that is good, and the church comes into the benefit of this at the present time.

Now I think that Philadelphia involves that the church has been awakened to this; at any rate, the Spirit had wrought, and the saints were learning to look to the Lord, and to lean on Him instead of

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resting in the ecclesiastical institutions which would pretentiously occupy the ground in that day. The Holy Ghost is ever true to His mission -- He glorifies Christ, and wherever He has liberty He brings Christ forward, and also all the things that are Christ's. He will give Christ His proper place in the affections of the saints. That is what the Spirit will do for you but not only that -- He will take of the things of Christ and show them to you, John 16:14. If you love Christ, you will be interested in His things, and you will desire to know about them, If the enemy cannot prevent you from hearing about Christ personally, he will endeavour to hide from you the things of Christ. I rejoice if there are those who contend for Christ personally; if we love Christ we can but thank God when He is well spoken of, even though the speakers do not speak well of us. But then, when you speak well of Christ personally do not obscure Christ's things. The Spirit of God glorifies Christ, but He also speaks of the things of Christ. Do not overlook that Christ is the Owner of a vast system. The Spirit is here to take of His things and to show them to us. As the apostle Paul says, "To me, less than the least of all saints, has this grace been given, to announce among the nations the glad tidings of the unsearchable riches of the Christ", Ephesians 3:8 (New Trans.). Do not miss the "riches". You can never get a full view of Christ if you do not see Him in relation to His own system of things. The apostle Paul in the epistle to the Romans presents Christ in relation to things here, that is, as coming in flesh so as to take up the liabilities which rested upon us, and to remove them all in His death; but the gospel does not stop there: it goes on to the "unsearchable riches of the Christ". The Spirit says the riches of Christ are unsearchable, but they are there for us -- they were announced as glad tidings among the nations. The Lord says, "All things that the Father hath are

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mine" John 16:15. All that the Father hath is given to the Son, and the Spirit is here to make all known to the saints. In this way Christ is glorified, as we read, "He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you". John 16:14.

Well now, it seems to me that the Spirit had succeeded in making this known to Philadelphia. Note in the address to the overcomer in this church the recurrence of the pronoun "my": this indicates unmistakably that there was affection for Christ, and hence interest in all that was His -- the temple of His God, the name of His God, the city of His God (new Jerusalem) and His new name. The Spirit had glorified Christ and He had thus obtained a place in the affections of the saints; hence Philadelphia appreciated Christ and the things of Christ. The Holy Ghost is ever true to His mission, and He finishes with that with which He began. He began by glorifying Christ among the saints, and He ends with this. You may say things begin brightly but they end in failure. But no: God secures for Himself a bright finish. God began with Israel as a son He says, "Israel is my son, even my firstborn.... Let my son go that he may serve me". Exodus 4:22,23. The nation failed and did not answer to sonship, but the Book of Malachi shows that the remnant did at the close. They feared Jehovah, and thought upon His name; also, they spake often one to another. And -- "They shall be mine, saith the Lord of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels and I will spare them as a man spareth his own son that serveth him". Malachi 3:17. That was indeed a bright finish for God, and I think that is, in a way, a counterpart to what is said to the Church in Philadelphia, and Revelation 22:16, 17 shows that it will be repeated in the church's history. The Spirit of God glorified Christ at the beginning, and the effect was that the church loved Christ. Christ had been ministered by Paul to the Ephesians,

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and the Ephesian saints loved Christ, and the Lord knew that they loved Him, and He knew, too, when their love for Him waned: He says, "Thou hast left thy first love". Revelation 2:4. The church, viewed as a whole in responsibility, has turned aside; but through a fresh presentation of Christ in the energy of the Spirit there has been a revival of affection; to this Philadelphia corresponds. The Lord speaks in terms which unmistakably indicate this: He speaks of His love for her, and of His things, etc. Well, it is wonderful to have the Spirit indwelling us, and that He makes Christ known to us. And how encouraging to know that the One thus made known, as He who loves us, holds the key of David in His hand! The saints in Philadelphia were to know that Christ administered all that for which David stood figuratively. David brought in the kingdom and wielded its power. This is seen fully in Christ -- an irresistible arm of power. David stands for the kingdom -- the power of God down here active in behalf of men. The Lord presents Himself as "He that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth". Revelation 3:7. He who went into death for us lives in heaven unchanged, and He wields all this power on our behalf down here. Will He not see to us? There can he no question but that He will.

It seems to me that Christ will be known in this light until the end, and I will tell you why I think so. When He says, "I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star", the Spirit and the bride say, "Come". Revelation 22:16,17. The church says, "Come", and this fact shows that she has affection for Him, and that she recognises Him in relation to God's purpose. It is to One who announces Himself in connection with David, and the bright day of blessing, which is now very near, that the church says, "Come". This desire that Christ should come, no doubt, characterised, more or less, those who possessed

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the Spirit from the beginning, but it is seen especially at the close, and this is cheering in the extreme.

The bride has intelligence and affection. She knows who the Root and Offspring of David is. How have Christians come to know these things? The Holy Ghost has told them of them. We may be assured that the Spirit will not give up instructing us. The Spirit and the bride not only say "Come" to Christ, they think also of the thirsty world around, and they say, "Let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely". Revelation 22:17. The Lord had said, "If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink". John 7:37. This was at the close of a dispensation, and when there was no water in Israel; but Christ had water to offer. At the close of this dispensation the Lord has water to offer, and the cry is, "Whosoever will, let him take of the water of life freely". It is there to be taken.

Well, I have alluded to all these things in seeking to make clear the position of Christ as in supreme control over the powers of good and evil. May we be enabled to apprehend Him fully in this light!

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THE LAW OF THE KINGDOM

John 8:1 -11; Matthew 11:28 - 30.

THE thought I have is to engage you with the law of the kingdom of God. I think that the idea of the law of the kingdom is very simple. It is what you would expect in the kingdom. You could scarcely conceive of a kingdom without a law. I do not suppose that there ever has been one. I should judge that in the formation of a kingdom, or an empire, one of the necessary things would be the formulation of a law by which things were to be regulated as, for instance, the "Code Napoleon" in the establishment of the French empire. Napoleon felt great enough not only to establish an empire, but to give a law to the empire. Evidently he had a very great thought. Few men are capable of such. I do not know that any of the other empire-founders attempted it, although I suppose they would all realise the necessity for a law. I do not wish to speak to you about those kingdoms and empires that occupy the historians of the world, but I think I can venture to speak a little about the kingdom of God. The kingdom of God forms no part of the history of this world. I do not think that any historian of the kingdoms of the world could attempt to give any idea of it. I never heard of one who did, but the simplest believer may give an account of the kingdom of God. When I say he can give an account of it, I mean that he can give an account of what he has found it to be. Even if he is not well acquainted with all that pertains to the kingdom, he can at any rate give you an account of what he has found it to be for himself. I think every believer could do that.

It is one thing to be in the kingdom, and it is another thing to be regulated by the laws of the kingdom and I think it must commend itself to you that to be consistent, you must be regulated by the laws of the

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kingdom, otherwise you become lawless. You might not be an outlaw, but you become that. If you do not pay attention to the laws of the kingdom, you are bound to come under the punishment of the laws. If you violate the law of the kingdom you must answer for it sooner or later. God has not only a kingdom, but He has, so to speak, a court of appeal. I will tell you what constitutes a man an outlaw in the kingdom. You may say that murder would constitute a man such, or treason. It would in an ordinary kingdom. But Scripture gives an account of what constitutes a man an outlaw in the kingdom of God. What constitutes a man an outlaw, as far as I can judge, is disregard of the assembly. You will recall what is in Matthew 18. It is a sort of an epitome, as I understand it, of the laws of the kingdom. It gives you the principle by which the kingdom is to be regulated, and what you get there is the case of a man trespassing against his brother. There is clearly a violation of the laws of the kingdom, but he is not punished for that. In an ordinary kingdom he would be punished for it, if the laws were strictly carried out. Even in the case of a beast trespassing in the field of a neighbour the owner thereof is liable to punishment. He is liable to a fine in the court. But Matthew 18 does not suppose punishment for trespass. The man is not punished at all for such. The injured person is to endeavour to recover his brother. That is the law of the kingdom. The law does not punish the man for trespass at all. The one wronged, contrary to the rules of every other kingdom, endeavours to recover the offender. He does not ask for amends, or a recompense, at all. That gives you an idea of the law of God's kingdom, but nevertheless, the chapter supposes the possibility of the man who trespassed becoming an outlaw. Why did he become an outlaw? The one he had wronged went to him and

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spoke to him about his trespass. He would not hear him. That did not constitute him an outlaw. He then takes another with him, and the offender turns away from both. He not only trespassed, he turned away from his brother against whom he had trespassed, and he turned away from two of them -- that even does not constitute him an outlaw. What is the next point? "Tell it to the assembly". Matthew 18:17. And if he will not hear the assembly, what then? "Let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican". Matthew 18:17. He is, so to speak, an outlaw. What constituted him such? He did not hear the assembly.

Now, you may say that this is giving the assembly a very great place, but it is Scripture. It is the supreme court in that sense, and to disregard the assembly renders a man unclean. He is to be regarded as a heathen and as a publican, and these are outside the pale of the kingdom. Such a person may appear very respectable, passing even to be a Christian publicly, but he has refused to listen to divine authority in the assembly; he has refused to pay attention to what God has established down here as an appeal, for he will not hear the assembly, hence the injunction is, "Let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican".

Now, what I desire to dwell upon is the law of the kingdom, and manifestly, in order to have to say to the law of the kingdom, you have to come into the kingdom. The law of the kingdom evidently does not extend beyond the boundaries of the kingdom. The Lord said, "The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached and every man presseth into it", Luke 16:16. It was there in virtue of the presence of a divine Person down here, and men pressed their way into it. My idea of the kingdom is such that I feel every believer ought to have a true thought of it in his soul. You want to get into it. Directly you wish to get into

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the kingdom of God, you will find pressure against you. That is as sure as possible. The Lord says that every man forces his way into it. Did you ever feel the necessity of forcing your way into the kingdom? I think that if you have got light in your soul as to the advantage of the kingdom, your next thought would be: How am I going to get into it? Now Matthew 18 would help you. It says: "Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven". Matthew 18:3. Entrance into the kingdom necessitates the abandonment of all that tends to make us important in this world only; in the spirit of a "little child" can we find our place in this wonderful and blessed sphere.

Now, my intention was not to speak to you as to the mode of entrance into the kingdom; what is on my mind is rather, as I said, the law of the kingdom. We all assume to be in the kingdom, so that it is not a question of telling people how they are to get into it on an occasion like this. I am speaking to those who take the ground of being in it, and what I would press upon you is the necessity of adhering to the law. As I said before, if you do not adhere to the law, in the long run you will become lawless and an outlaw. I could give you examples of outlaws in the Scriptures, and it is a terrible thing to be an outlaw in regard to divine things. But I do not want to speak of that; I desire to speak of the law itself. I feel, in a sense, it is easier to speak of a criminal than of the law, because we are all more or less acquainted with crime. In the elements of our make-up you will find the elements of crime. It is not a foreign thing to any of us, but I am persuaded, that law is not so familiar to us. Man, as he is naturally, is not very well accustomed to law. Law is not such a familiar element to us as crime, so I want to speak to you about law. I do not wish to

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make you legal; I am endeavouring to set you free, by the Lord's help. The law of the kingdom of God tends to liberty, and not to bondage, as I hope to make clear.

I will turn now to John 8. The Lord deliberately refuses to be an executioner of Moses' law. Not that an executioner is not necessary. He is. The law was made for lawless people, and without an executioner it must be absolutely ineffective. There was an executioner when Moses gave the law, the man who gathered sticks on the sabbath day suffered death for his crime.

These Pharisees brought this woman to the Lord, there was no question about her guilt. The crime was there, the criminal was there, and the law was there; but the only One who had a right to be the executioner declined to act. He would not execute the law of Moses. What would He do? He would write a law of His own; that is what He meant, I think, when He wrote upon the ground. "Jesus stooped down and with his finger wrote on the ground". John 8:6. That was not putting people to death. That was legislating -- writing a law. This act of these leaders would make the Lord a mere executioner of the law of Moses. He was not that. He was the law-maker. The Lord Jesus Christ must be supreme. He never can come in to fill up anybody's line of things; He must formulate His own law. He establishes His own kingdom, and formulates His own law. "Woman", He says, "where are those thine accusers?" John 8:10. There was none among them without sin, and so no one to put her to death. There was no executioner. The only One who could execute the law righteously was there, but He declined to act. Is it not precious to hear His reply? She says "No man, Lord". He says: "Neither do I condemn thee; go and sin no more". John 8:11.

John the Baptist could not have done anything

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else but condemn that woman if he had been there. He was on the line of the law and the prophets. But the Lord began an entirely new system "From that time" (from John's time) He says, "the kingdom of God is preached". Luke 16:16. These men were too late. What was the use of bringing a woman as a criminal to Christ as under the Mosaic system, when it had passed away? All gave way to the new system -- the kingdom of God. Virtually they brought this woman into the kingdom of God to be condemned. That was no place to bring a criminal for condemnation. The kingdom of God was not set up to condemn people. People were not pressing into it to be condemned. The kingdom of God was here to save people, to deliver them. I like to give Christ prominence. He comes on His own line, absolutely on His own, and He refuses any other. I am not saying that He disregarded Moses and the prophets, for they pointed to Him, and testified of the kingdom. But it is in keeping with John's gospel that Christ should not be made to fit in with what existed previously. The prominent feature here is the Person, and He must take precedence in everything. I quite admit that John's gospel does not develop the kingdom. That is not the point of it. But nevertheless, the kingdom was there in the Person of the King; and the question of the law having been raised brought this out. When the Lord wrote on the ground, He intimated that He was the great lawgiver, and this has reference to the kingdom. Although He did not condemn the woman on the ground of the law of Moses, yet He says to her, "Go, and sin no more". John 8:11. There would be no sin, for sin is lawlessness in the world in which His law prevailed.

We may turn now to Matthew 11. What I wish to point out is, that Christ Himself is really the law of the kingdom. It is of primary importance that it should be clearly seen that it is Christ. It is not

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a code. Now, although Napoleon framed a code of laws, he was not the expression of the laws he formulated. I think I could prove that he was the opposite. Whatever he may have expected his subjects to do to avoid lawlessness, I think that he was the most lawless man of his times. And even as to Moses, he was not the expression of the law. It was written on stones, and stones could be no expression of the law of God. I do not suppose you could get in any kingdom its laws expressed. Take the kingdom of Great Britain, you could not find the laws expressed in the king. I do not suppose he is any more free from lawlessness than the generality of his subjects.

He is not the embodiment of the law. What a wonderful thing it would be for Great Britain if the king were the expression of the laws, if he were in every way the expression of righteousness and equity! This is exactly what Christ is in His kingdom. He not only rules His people (He is the One to whom we are "legitimately subject" 1 Corinthians 9:21), but as down here, He was the expression of the laws by which we are to be regulated. He says, "Take my yoke upon you and learn from me". Matthew 11:29. The laws of the kingdom have been expressed in Christ (He was the righteous One who hated lawlessness), and we should all be concerned to abide by them. Coming into the kingdom, you find a law there. That is the first thing. If you become a citizen of the United States, you have to obey the laws. Even if you are a British or a French subject, or the subject of any other country, directly you put your foot on American soil, you are amenable to the laws of the United States. You must respect the laws, and the principle holds good in the kingdom of God.

There is an immense difference between having a Man for a law and having a code. A code is a heartless thing. It has not a bit of heart in it, not a bit of

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sympathy. And you could not get any sympathy from the stones on which God wrote. There is no heart in a stone. What does the Lord Jesus Christ do? He becomes Himself the law, as I said. He says, "Learn from me", "Take my yoke upon you". Matthew 11:29. Whose yoke? Why, the One who has established the kingdom for your good, the One has died for you, and has risen again, and gone into heaven, and is at the right hand of God. That is the One who has become law. Is there any difficulty in having such a Person for law? He is law to you. The simplest believer, the youngest child, can have an idea of Christ being law, and they do too.

It is all a question in Christianity of Christ. The Lord says, "Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am meek and lowly in heart, and ye shall find rest to your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light". Matthew 11:29,30. Is that something known to you? Is that something that you have touched in your experience? Have you come into touch with Christ as law? You say, How does it work? It works this way: you see His mind and refuse all that is inconsistent with what has been expressed in Him. Think of all the unrighteousness and unfairness that you may see marking Christians at the present time, and more or less at all times; what is the cause of it? They are not subject to the law. It might begin with trespassing against a brother in a very simple and unimportant way, but how does it end? In becoming an outlaw. I know people who have become outlaws, and it begins small. Why? Because of not paying attention to the law? Would the Lord Jesus Christ injure or trespass against a brother? Would He do an unrighteous act? Never.

Now, that simply conveys the idea of the law of the kingdom: how am I going to conduct myself toward my brethren? How did Christ conduct

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Himself? What would He do in your circumstances? That settles everything. It is a most important thing for every one of us to pay attention to the law, because if you do not you become an outlaw in time. It is very serious, and I take it home to myself. You may begin in a very small way, but if you proceed, you will become an outlaw. God is not mocked. People think that because it is a day of grace, all kinds of things pass muster. But they do not. God is more particular than you think. The servant in the parable, at the end of Matthew 18, who had mercy shown him, and did not in turn show mercy to his fellow servant, did not escape punishment. He was delivered to the tormentors till he should pay what was due. On the other hand, as having become acquainted with the Lord, His will becomes your pleasure -- you delight in fulfilling the law of Christ. Entering the kingdom in the spirit of a little child, you grow up in your new environment: you become acquainted with Him who is supreme there, and you delight to be controlled by His law. If entering as a little child, you do not carry with you any of the elements of the world (the Lord says, "Woe to the world because of offences!" Matthew 18:7) which would become the occasion of stumbling. You leave all behind, and thus you are shut up to the blessed influences and instruction found in this new and wonderful sphere. Further, you find others there, and that those are precious to Christ. They are the "little ones" for whom He cares with tenderest love. Woe be to him who is the occasion of stumbling to them, or who despises them. You would learn to care for them as the Lord does. You would not think evil of a brother, or suspect him. Suspicion is not according to the laws of the kingdom. Love "thinketh no evil". 1 Corinthians 13:5. The Lord Jesus did not live in suspicion of people.

Patience, too, is an element in the law of the

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kingdom. I need not speak of how much this came out in the Lord's pathway here. Take the case of Judas, for instance. The Lord bore with him. Not that He did not know Judas. He knew that he had a devil: He knew that he was a thief. Nevertheless, Judas companied with Christ, and was numbered with the eleven, up to the last moment.

There is a model of patience. The Lord Jesus Christ is a wonderful Model. He is the law of the kingdom; and if you desire to be in the kingdom according to God, and for your own happiness and blessing, you abide by the laws. There is no other way of getting the good of the kingdom. Taking His yoke upon you and learning from Him you find rest; you escape all the commotion that transpires around you. His yoke came out in entire submission to the Father's will; if you accept this and learn from Him you find rest to your soul.

At the outset I referred to the assembly in connection with the kingdom. I think our apprehension of the kingdom must be very defective unless we see the place of the assembly in relation to it. You could not have the laws respected without a court of appeal. Of course Christ is the supreme authority in the kingdom, but in Matthew 18 authority is vested in the assembly. It acts in the Lord's name on earth. "Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven". Matthew 18:18. It may be said that there is no assembly to which to appeal now. Nevertheless people are becoming outlaws; and this comes to pass through the moral judgment of the saints. Satan hates the idea of the assembly, and would banish it from our minds. But I do not admit that there is no assembly. I admit the ruin, and that because of this, it is so shackled that it is well-nigh incapacitated to act for Christ: that at times the children, as it were, come to the birth and there is no strength to bring forth; nevertheless after long exercise and patience sufficient

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strength comes and there is deliverance; and I believe it will be found that deliverance always comes in connection with the recognition of the assembly. The Lord will never give up the church, and while it is down here He will act through it. He says, "If two of you shall agree", etc. Matthew 18:19. It is two of the assembly really. Then, "Where two or three are gathered together in my name there am I in the midst of them". Matthew 18:20. Two or three represent a minimum, but the Lord is with the few gathered to His name, and if there, His authority will be asserted. Hence if the principles which He has laid down, and by which He intended His people to he governed and regulated, are disregarded, He will not fail to express His displeasure, and those guilty will suffer accordingly. The Lord's judgment of things comes out through the saints, and there is no escape if the laws of the kingdom are disregarded. I would take home to myself, as I press upon you, the immense importance of what I have been saying. I would advise all to recognise what I feel I am justified in calling, the laws of the kingdom. If you pay attention to the laws of the kingdom, the laws of the kingdom will pay attention to you. The kingdom of God is against evil, but it protects good. If you respect its laws, happiness is yours, and blessing.

May the Lord give each one to subject himself to Christ, and not only that, but to find pleasure in so doing, because if you love Him, His yoke is easy and His burden is light.

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Pages 278 to 379, "Readings on Hebrews, New York, 1906" (Volume 2).

READING ON THE EPISTLE TO THE HEBREWS

Hebrews 1; Hebrews 2:1 - 4

J.P. What do you think the subject is here?

J.T. The Speaker: the greatness of the One who has spoken; then the importance of paying attention to what has been spoken.

J.P. It is a very wonderful Scripture in that way. The Hebrew Christians were in danger of slipping away from what had been communicated to them. This would be negligence of the great salvation; if it was neglected, there would be no escape.

J.T. I suppose the thought was that a great salvation had been brought to the Jews -- made available for them; the Lord had inaugurated it, and there was no escape if what He had inaugurated was neglected. You come to finality when you come to the Son, and if negligent of what He has spoken there is no escape.

J.P. If we consider the One in whom God speaks we are forced to the conclusion that the speaking is ultimate. As Mr. Raven once said, "Who could speak after the Son?"

J.T. You might send messages by messengers, but no messenger could convey your mind, but if you come yourself then everything is told out. The prophets could only speak in part. They were only given a message for the moment, but when the Son comes, all there is to be said is said.

Ques Is that why the word "great" is used in connection with salvation?

J.T. I think so. "Which at the first began to

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be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him". Hebrews 2:3.

Ques. You said a little while ago that it was from the divine side. What did you mean by that?

J.T. It is God speaking in the Son. Here the Speaker is alone; there is no one associated with Him. What He spoke was "confirmed unto us by them that heard him", but they are not called speakers. The Speaker is the Son. He is speaking on the part of God.

J.P. It is no doubt through divine wisdom that the name of the writer of this epistle is left in obscurity.

Ques. Have we the purgation of sins here?

J.T. It is not introduced in this chapter in its application to us, but simply to emphasise the greatness of Him who is speaking.

Ques Is that not in line with what we have been speaking of, that things are presented here from the divine side?

J.T. In this chapter it is all a question of the great Speaker. If He is seen in any relation or position, it is simply to emphasise His personal greatness. It is no question of applying these things to us, not even as regards His companions. He is anointed with the oil of gladness above His companions, which emphasises the greatness of Christ.

R.S.S. And the angels are introduced in the same way.

J.T. It is all a question of the greatness of Christ, the Speaker. The Hebrew Christians had previously received the speaking, and the point was to establish them in what they had received, as they were in danger of slipping away from it. What had been spoken involved the whole truth of Christianity, and there was no escape if they neglected that.

R.S.S. This is emphasised by being again referred to in the end of chapter 12.

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J.T. The One who speaks from heaven, you mean?

R.S.S. Yes. "See that ye refuse not him that speaketh", etc. Hebrews 12:25.

J.P. That principle goes all through this epistle. It is finality here. There is nothing beyond it, and if this be slipped away from, or given up, everything is given up.

Ques. Has this reference to the hope?

J.T. Chapter 6 speaks of the impossibility of renewing again to repentance those once enlightened, and who had tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and had tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they fell away; but the point here is that if they neglected the thing spoken -- the great salvation -- there was no escape.

Ques Angels in Revelation have a very prominent place. The several addresses are to the angels of the churches. Is that the same thought as here?

J.T. No. Angels there are symbolical; whereas here they are introduced in contrast to the Son. "Unto which of the angels said he at any time, thou art my Son", etc. Hebrews 1:5. God never spoke in that way to an angel, but He did to Christ. Angels in the seven addresses to the churches are symbolical; they represent those who are responsible in the churches.

Rem. While here they are introduced to show the greatness of the Son.

J.T. That is the point. Christ alone is addressed as Son.

W.J.N. I suppose there was a tendency on the part of the Hebrews to make much of the angels, for the reason that God had spoken through angels. Here, as has been said, we get testimony to the greatness of the One in whom God has spoken. The One who has spoken is really the expression of what has been spoken.

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J.P. I suppose if the greatness of the One in whom God has spoken really comes before our souls it will deliver us from every wrong tendency. We shall not be disposed to make too much of angels or anybody else.

J.T. The Person being what He spoke is hardly the point in this chapter. In chapter 4 we get the Word of God, but here Christ is not said to be that. He is here the Son, the Speaker, and the point is not that He is what He spoke, but that the speaking is great because He spoke it. God has spoken to us "in Son". It is in that Person He has spoken, and what He speaks would be the word of God here.

Ques. "Thou art my son". When was that said of Him?

J.T. When He became Man.

Ques. In a way does it not apply to resurrection? In Acts 13 it speaks of His resurrection, and in Psalm 2 "Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion". Psalm 2:6.

J.T. I do not think His being Son is made to stand on resurrection. Born into this world He is owned as Son, and the Father addresses Him as such at His baptism. Resurrection power declares Him to be Son.

R.S.S. "That holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God". Luke 1:35.

J.T. I think sonship for us is made to stand upon resurrection, but as regards Christ personally nothing is made to stand on resurrection. He is what He is. So here He is anointed with the oil of gladness above His companions; that is, there is something distinctive about Christ; no matter how He is connected with men, something always marks Him off from them. This is seen in the anointing. He was anointed personally prior to His death, whereas we do not come into the anointing without His death --

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that is, without the application of the blood. Aaron, as a type, was anointed with oil without the blood.

Rem. Here it is the Son who is the Speaker. In former days God spoke through the prophets. He now speaks through the Son.

J.T. It is stronger than that. God Himself is the Speaker here, but "in Son" -- the article is not there.

Rem God is the Speaker, but through the Son.

J.T. That makes too little of the Son; it places Him on the platform of prophecy. The actual Speaker here is no less than God.

J.B. We must not forget the personal glory of Christ.

R.S.S. What is the force of "him that speaketh from heaven",? Hebrews 12:25.

J.T. Position, I think. Here it is no question of the position of the Speaker, but of the Speaker Himself. No position could affect the Speaker, whether speaking from heaven or as on earth. The speaking is great because of the Speaker. Morally the Lord always spoke from heaven.

R.S.S. Why do you think it says, "him that speaketh from heaven", while the speaking was actually upon earth?

J.T. The law was uttered on earth, and had reference to the earth alone; whereas the speaking now was from heaven, and it refers to both heaven and earth.

J.P. It is contrast. "For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven". Hebrews 12:25.

R.S.S. Does this refer to Moses, or to all the prophets?

J.T. It refers to the mount from which the law was given. It is a wonderful thing for Christians to get intelligence in their souls as to the Person who has

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spoken, and the heavenly character of what has been introduced.

J.B. The first two chapters cover the personal greatness and glory of Christ, as Apostle and High Priest.

J.T. Chapter 1 is the Apostle, the Speaker, who came out from God; chapter 2 is the Priest; and in chapter 3 the brethren are exhorted to consider the "Apostle and High Priest of our profession". Hebrews 3:1. The point was to engage them with the Person who could effect their deliverance and preservation from the world system.

W.J.N. It is a question really of recovery and preservation. The Spirit proceeds on that line: the presentation of Christ, in order to get the eye fixed on Him.

J.B. But is not inauguration connected with this? I think the first thing is the inauguration of the system.

J.T. I think so. There was an entirely new system of things inaugurated, with which the great salvation was connected. The apostles are not said to be apostles here. They are mentioned as those who heard and confirmed the things spoken by the Lord.

J.P. Their importance is derived from the fact that they heard Him. That is all the importance they have.

J.T. And the Holy Ghost is not even presented as the Speaker in this chapter. All that is introduced is simply confirmatory of the great speaking of the great Speaker.

Rem. I had in mind the transfiguration, where God says: "This is my beloved Son, hear him", (Luke 9:35) which would bring out the greatness of this One. He owns His Son. This was also at His baptism in Jordan.

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Ques Would you explain a little about what is said?

J.T. I think that is a very important consideration. Of course the chapter does not give what He said. That had already been received. These people, I have no doubt, could have given an account of what He said, but they were in danger of slipping away from it.

W.J.N. I suppose, without going into details, all that was said could be summed up in the expression "great salvation". The idea with the Jews was to be saved from the hand of the enemy. Did this great salvation effect God's thought for them?

J.T. I think so. It would be salvation in its purest sense.

W.J.N. Because Christianity is in view here?

J.T. Yes. It is simply a question of Christianity, and so what was inaugurated.

Ques. Had it been spoken of prior to this?

J.T. The law and the prophets had borne witness to it, but the great salvation "had its commencement in being spoken of by the Lord". Hebrews 2:3. An entirely new system of things had been inaugurated by the Lord.

J.P. There have only been two divine systems. The first proved ineffective, but salvation is found in the second.

J.T. He is "able also to save to the uttermost". Hebrews 7:25.

Rem. The great salvation would effect that which we are all set for, I suppose: deliverance from everything.

J.T. I hope we are all set for it! It is there. The Lord Jesus has inaugurated that in which there is deliverance from everything -- escape from everything adverse.

J.B. Where is that found?

J.T. It is presented to faith as in Christ, but practically it was found at the beginning in the church.

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A.R.S. What do you mean by salvation being found in the church?

J.T. I mean that the Lord has instituted an entirely new system. He spoke about it while He was here. While the Lord was here, there was a measure of salvation for men: He was the Centre. But really what was before Him was the establishment of an entirely new system, and the gospel stands in that relation.

A.R.S. Does not Peter say in the Acts, "Neither is there salvation in any other" (than Christ)? Acts 4:12.

J.T. But the question was, "Where is it found?" Christ gives it to you. My thought is that it is realised in a certain sphere. The Person through whom it has been effected, and who gives it to you, is one thing and the sphere where it is realised is another. The Lord Jesus inaugurated that in which salvation is, and it is available to all believers on the Lord Jesus Christ. The Philippian jailor felt the necessity of salvation when he asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" The apostle said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ". Acts 16:30,31. Salvation was in Christ. The jailor would of course be saved from wrath, but while actually here in the body he would find escape from the power of evil and the elements of the world in virtue of the presence of the Holy Ghost in him as linking him with the assembly.

J.P. You do not go far in this epistle until you reach the sphere: it is found in chapter 3.

J.T. Salvation being in Christ is a question of what He has made available for men.

J.B. It is what He has effected, and what He has effected can only be found in one sphere. That is the church, which is the sphere of the Holy Ghost.

J.T. I think when speaking of salvation one is justified in speaking of where it is found.

Ques. If you neglect this wonderful salvation, what is there?

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J.P. It is neglect in failing to hear His voice.

J.B. In the inauguration of a system like this there must be a competent Person to inaugurate it, and that Person is seen here.

J.T. If you want to speak about Christ, you cannot speak about Him fully without bringing in His work -- His achievements.

J.B. If you get a thing inaugurated, you must have an inaugurator.

J.T. And the inaugurator of necessity is greater than what he inaugurates. All I want to make clear is that the great subject of preaching is Christ, but then you cannot preach Christ fully unless you introduce what He has brought in for man. I hold that to be fundamental. It is absolutely impossible to present Christ in the fulness of His work unless you speak of what He has established here for the good and blessing of men. The prophets speak of salvation: it would be placed in Zion, Isaiah 46. The walls of Zion will be called "Salvation". The church answers to this for the moment, because it is the dwelling-place of God. It is extraordinary that it should be doubted that salvation is realised where God dwells.

Ques. Will you explain more fully as to the sphere of salvation?

J.T. It is a sphere established here by God, which is permeated by righteousness, peace, joy, etc. There is on the one hand a strong fortress, so to speak; and on the other there is a home, or place of enjoyment. The fortress insures preservation from hostile attacks, but then a man wants more than that. He not only needs preservation and deliverance from enemies, but he wants comfort, and the house of God supplies that for him.

Ques. Taking the man who went from Jerusalem to Jericho as an illustration: he fell among thieves, and the good Samaritan came and saved

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him, and brought him to the inn. Does that mean bringing him into the church?

J.T. It does not say he saved him, but that he poured in oil and wine. It was a question of the man's state. The thieves were not in view. The Samaritan did not interfere with the thieves in any way. The man was in a half-dead condition, and the Samaritan poured in oil and wine, and placed him on his own beast. When they come to the inn the man is cared for.

J.B. I have thought the inn was a place of safety, as having resources for those who could command them. That is, the man is brought to a place of safety, and by One who can command all the resources there.

J.T. Saying salvation is found in the church in a practical way is only confirmatory of its being in Christ, because the church is in Christ.

G.F.W. When you say salvation is found in the church, do you mean that it is realised there?

J.T. Yes. It is as if you, as living in Cincinnati, were to say to me, "What you require from me financially you can obtain on application". I apply to you by letter. You have a bank in New York and give me an order thereon. I find the money in that given place, but always get it from you. If I do not go where it is I will not get it, but I must always maintain direct contact with Christ in heaven.

Ques Do you mean salvation is to be had in Christ, and when a person is saved he forms part of the church, and is therefore in a safe place?

J.T. He is brought into an entirely new sphere. A great many think safety from judgment in the future constitutes salvation; there is deliverance from judgment, but the true idea of salvation is complete deliverance from a world dominated by the devil. You are brought into a sphere where Christ is law.

Ques. Where did Israel get their salvation?

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J.T. Their salvation involved a change of place, to begin with. You could not say that they had salvation in Egypt. You might say they were safe and justified as sheltered by the blood, but they were not saved until they were on the other side of the sea, their enemies having been destroyed by the judgment of God.

Rem. You can see clearly in Acts 1 that the one hundred and twenty have salvation, but all in connection with a glorified Christ.

J.T. In Acts 1 the Lord Jesus Christ is seen going up into heaven. If it be a question simply of announcing what is in heaven, and Christ personally, all was true in Acts 1. The Lord was in heaven, and redemption accomplished; but what was down here? Could you preach the gospel under those conditions? My belief is that the idea of the gospel with many is that it could be preached in Acts 1. While Christ was on earth there was preaching: the kingdom was there in His Person; but after He left, there was no preaching till the Holy Ghost came. The presence of the Holy Ghost involved a sphere in which salvation from the world-system was found; to this the Lord added such as should be saved. The gospel announces Christ as Head and Lord. As Head He is righteousness for man: this might have been preached in Acts 1; but to preach Christ as Lord without the Holy Ghost down here, would be to announce the title without the power to sustain it. Christ being Lord insures practical deliverance for those who obey Him, and this could not be unless the Holy Ghost came and established the kingdom where man is. The kingdom is established in heaven because Christ is there, but it is here because the Holy Ghost is here.

J.P. There cannot be any question about that, because you would have nothing practically aside from what is established down here.

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J.T. You might have the announcement of Christ as glorified, but without including the wonderful sphere formed here by the Holy Ghost practical salvation from the world-system is not available. There may be a measure of preaching as to what Christ has done, and one might even get so far as to know the forgiveness of sins, but salvation is an impossibility without a divine Person down here. He is here in a divinely formed vessel -- the church.

J.B. I know people get beclouded about the church, because they speak of the church as it actually exists here today, instead of looking at it as set up at the beginning. It is in looking at the church as set up at the beginning that I get right thoughts about it.

J.T. I cannot understand any one who is at all acquainted with the testimony of Scripture, refusing the thought that salvation was found practically in the church, or how it can be thought that this weakens the truth that it is in Christ. If you were to suppose a city in a colony of Great Britain falling prey to an adverse power, the inhabitants would say that their salvation was in the king, and their great effort would be to make their condition known to the king; and the king, if true to his office, would do all in his power to relieve that city. Now the fact that the king knew, and that salvation lay in him, did not release the city nor relieve the sufferings of its inhabitants. What would be glad tidings to those sufferers? Glad tidings would be that the British fleet was in sight, with a British army on board. The proof of the king's favour is the presence of the fleet and the army to raise the siege and relieve the city. That is what the Lord Jesus Christ has done. He has, so to speak, sent the fleet and the army. The Holy Ghost came, and this meant an almighty power here acting in men for the good of men. Of course, with this, God ever acts sovereignly, in the new birth,

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for instance. This is always true, and without it men would not avail themselves of what the gospel presents.

Rem. Those who come to Christ form part of that which He would use, and should they not be in readiness for the service? Wherever He calls them they would willingly go.

J.T. That is what comes out in the Acts. The gospel goes out through those in the church.

R.S.S. The Lord uses the saints who form the church to spread the glad tidings.

J.B. Philip was sent to the Ethiopian eunuch.

Ques. Would you say that the mind of God is that men should have salvation?

J.T. I know it is. A present salvation for all men is what the gospel announces. "For the grace of God, which carries with it salvation for all men, has appeared", Titus 2:11. At the beginning there was a place of salvation, and "the Lord added to the church daily such as should he saved". Acts 2:47.

J.B. I do not think in emphasising the greatness and glory of the assembly, we in any way detract from the present glory of Christ, because His glory is there.

Rem. So the importance of keeping to the company of the saints is emphasised in this epistle. "Not forsaking the assembling of yourselves together". Hebrews 10:25.

J.T. It is assumed that these saints had primarily received the truth, and if they neglected what had been received, there was no escape.

Ques. You would say that practically all the preaching in the Acts went out from the assembly.

J.T. That is a simple statement of facts.

Rem. I suppose there is an individual side to salvation.

J.T. In what I have been saying I have not had individual experience in view at all. I have been speaking of the assembly as built by the Lord, and

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indwelt by the Holy Ghost, and what was found in it as such. If it be a question of individual experience, one has to grow up to salvation, and you always maintain connection with Christ in heaven by faith. Romans furnishes the instruction necessary for this, and there the soul is led on to the truth of the church.

J.P. We are so apt to form our thoughts of the assembly from what we see about us, instead of going back to the beginning and getting God's thoughts about it. You must get your thought of the assembly from God and the Scriptures.

J.B. In Peter's day the assembly was of sufficient importance to him so that after he went down on that wonderful mission to Cornelius he returned to it to rehearse the whole matter to the saints. I do not think the assembly has enough importance in many of our souls. I think we have been satisfied with knowledge of salvation from an eternal death, and so have not been led on into what has been spoken of here as to the new sphere; and I do not think we can realise a present salvation apart from the new sphere of things.

W.J.N. Going back for a moment to a remark regarding an individual work in souls, it is important to see that while there is a company, and salvation is connected with it, we must guard against being content with what belongs to the company without personal exercise.

J.T. So a subjective work is necessary with each one of us. By the "pure mental milk of the word" we "grow up to salvation". 1 Peter 2:2. We should ever bear in mind that the new system is connected with Christ in heaven as the Head and Centre of it.

J.P. Interesting as individual exercise may be, it is not the line in the first of Hebrews.

J.T. The great point in Hebrews 1 is the Person who has spoken. In the beginning of chapter 2 we see the great salvation.

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W.J.N. In regard to salvation spoken by the Lord, do you think those who heard His word, and turned to Him, were in a sense saved?

J.T. For the moment they found protection under the Lord, for the reason that the kingdom of God was there in Him.

J.P. He says to the Father, "When I was with them I kept them in thy name". John 17:12. That was a great thing, to be kept in the Father's name.

J.T. It is a most blessed thought: the Lord kept those whom the Father gave Him. I think every believer ought to be able to give an account of how he is kept at the present time. The apostles were kept while the Lord was with them. How are we being kept? We have been kept as set by the Spirit in relation to Christ and the saints. Believing on Christ, a man receives the Holy Ghost, who places him in relation to the saints -- the sphere of His blessed activity. It is in this connection salvation lies at the present time. We all know and gladly own it is the Lord's hand that is keeping us -- we are kept by the power of God -- but it is all a question of the "modus operandi" -- how God actually keeps us in a practical way.

Rem. The thing is to get with the saints whenever you can, even if we have to give up a good many other things in order to do it.

J.T. It is wonderful how the truth becomes simple and clear when you come into contact with the Lord's people who are in any measure walking in the recognition of the Spirit of God

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READING ON THE EPISTLE TO THE HEBREWS

Hebrews 2:5 - 18; Hebrews 3.

W.B--s. Will you express your thought about the "oil of gladness"? Hebrews 1:9. You alluded to it this morning. The Lord was anointed with the oil of gladness above His fellows.

J.T. I had thought of it in connection with joy, or "gladness". The reference to it in chapter 1 is to enhance the personal glory of Christ: He was anointed above His fellows. It refers to the Holy Ghost coming upon Christ in the right of His own Person; but what He received in this way the saints (His fellows) received afterwards on the ground of His death. But the "oil of gladness" is a remarkable and very blessed expression.

W.B--s. You said there was no mention of blood in connection with the Lord. To what had you reference in regard to that?

J.T. That He was anointed because of what He was personally, without the necessity of dying.

J.P. So the mention of it here is in keeping with the teaching in chapter 1; that is, the setting forth of the Lord's greatness and pre-eminence.

R.S.S. Does it refer to His baptism as in Matthew 3?

J.T. I think so.

R.S.S. Why is it called the "oil of gladness"?

J.T. It is a wonderful expression, and alludes to that particular blessing that is found in the Spirit in connection with Christ.

J.B. Does God's appreciation have anything to do with it?

J.T. The "oil of gladness" refers, I think, to His delight in the companions. It is the Spirit in that connection.

R.S.S. Would it correspond with Proverbs 8?

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J.T. I had thought of that, "His delights were with the sons of men". Proverbs 8:31. I think it alludes to the Spirit in connection with that wonderful sphere of blessedness which is peculiar to the church: the blessings we are brought into in association with Christ.

W.H.F. The "oil of gladness" is in connection with His having His brethren.

J.T. He received the Spirit in the right of His own Person, but the work of redemption having been accomplished, He received of the Father the promise of the Spirit, and shed Him forth on the disciples, and I think the Spirit coming into the saints brought into actual existence that wonderful circle where the "oil of gladness" was known. I think every Christian ought to be able to give an account of the "oil of gladness"; it alludes to our greatest privilege -- what we enjoy with Christ as His companions. The reference is, I think, to the peculiar gladness which was His in having His companions, and all having the Spirit: only that He received the Spirit in a distinctive way, in the right of His own Person; hence He had it above His companions. Just as in the case of Aaron, who was first anointed with oil without the blood, but was afterwards anointed just as his sons were anointed.

J.B. It would come out in the expression, "In the midst of the assembly will I sing praise". Hebrews 2:12.

J.T. The passage before us presents Christ as on our side.

J.P. The first part shows Him on God's side.

J.T. Here it is Man. "What is man that thou art mindful of him, or the Son of man that thou visitest him?" Hebrews 2:6. So you would expect now something in regard to Christ from that point of view. It is in this connection we come in.

"Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a

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merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people". Hebrews 2:17. That gives an idea of what is in this chapter: it is Christ in relation to His brethren, in relation to man.

Rem. And the world to come being subject to the Son of man, we get the idea of man in relation to God.

J.T. Christ is in view as placed over "the habitable world which is to come". Hebrews 2:5. He is over that in which men are.

J.P. Would you say the first two chapters are introductory?

J.T. Chapter 1 presents the Apostle; chapter 2 the High Priest.

J.P. My thought in saying they are introductory was that these two chapters furnish the foundation upon which everything rests in the entire epistle.

I think it is wonderful how the expression first comes in in Proverbs 8. "Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth, and my delights were with the sons of men". In the first chapter it is what belongs to Himself: the greatness and glory of His Person, and of what He has spoken; then the danger of those who had heard slipping away from what they had heard. The moment you get the habitable world, or earth, it brings in the thought of inhabitants. Chapter 2 views Christ in connection with the earth and its inhabitants.

J.T. Apostleship refers to what is past: that is, the revelation of God, and the inauguration of the system; this is once for all, but priesthood has a continual application, for the system has to be sustained. I think it is in the understanding of the latter side that saints are defective.

J.P. Do you distinguish between the inauguration and the display?

J.T. The display has not come in yet, but the

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sphere, of which Christ is the Head and Centre, is already inaugurated, and what we want to discover is how it is being sustained. I think very few have any difficulty as to the establishment of it, but where the difficulty lies is in understanding how it is sustained.

J.P. Are you quite sure we are all clear that it is inaugurated? Do you not think we slip into the future tense in our minds when reading certain portions of Hebrews?

J.T. Oh, but it is the "true tabernacle, which the Lord has pitched, and not man". Hebrews 8:2. It is pitched, and pitched forever.

J.P. I think it is of great importance to be clear that the inauguration has already really taken place; then the next thing, as you say, is understanding the wonderful way in which it is at the present time sustained.

J.T. It is the difference between Exodus and Leviticus. What you get in the book of Exodus is the setting up of the tabernacle. All was performed according to the instructions communicated to the apostle -- Moses.

J.P. It was set up on the ground of redemption accomplished.

J.T. The tabernacle was the figure of God's order. Leviticus is the maintenance of that, and our approach to God in relation to it; and for that we must have the Priest. Leviticus is not the apostle: it is the priest in the main, and what was becoming to the sanctuary of God in the people, and I think that is what we want to understand. So you get things that were forbidden: the kind of food they were to eat, and certain things pointed out that caused defilement. All these things are there for our instruction. Leviticus instructs as to how we are to approach God.

Then the book of Numbers is different altogether:

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it is neither the construction of the tabernacle, nor the maintenance of it, but rather the journeying of the people in relation to it. Before you could have the book of Numbers you must have Exodus and Leviticus. After you get instruction as to the inauguration and maintenance of the tabernacle, then the people are seen walking in relation to it.

Ques. So Leviticus would correspond with Hebrews 2?

J.T. Yes, and its teaching is indeed more the point all through the epistle, as far as the divine system is concerned.

J.B. Right on to chapter 10.

J.P. The great body of Hebrews is on this very point -- the maintenance of what is already established.

J.T. In chapter 8 we read: "We have such a one high priest who has sat down on the right hand of the throne of the greatness in the heavens; minister of the holy places and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord has pitched and not man". Hebrews 8:1,2.

Ques. Will you make it clear as to the inauguration. It is the inauguration of what?

J.T. The inauguration of God's order of things.

Ques. For man, or for God?

J.T. The tabernacle conveyed in the first place the manner in which God would come out to man; then the manner in which man would go in to God.

Ques. Will the display be when Christ comes?

J.T. Yes. The display will be when the statue, so to speak, is unveiled. There is nothing at all to be added to it. It is all there in such wise that it can be said to the saints in this epistle that they have come to Mount Zion; the city of the living God, etc.

Rem. In this country the president is inaugurated on a certain day, then he takes up government later on. Would that illustrate it?

J.T. It is more than that here. It is not the

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inauguration of a person merely, but the inauguration of a system of things.

Ques. Would Romans answer to Numbers?

J.T. No, 1 Corinthians does, because it is a question of maintaining God's testimony publicly -- a question of carrying the tent of testimony through the wilderness. The book of Numbers would be better named "Leviticus", because the book of Numbers is a question of the levite's service rather than the priest's, although the levites were dependent on the priests for their service; while Leviticus is a question of approach to God, which was not the function of the levite at all.

J.P. You evidently do not think the naming of the books of the Bible is inspired.

J.T. No, the titles do not always convey what the respective books contain.

J.P. I think the great thing to see is what is characteristic of these books. What you said just now is very interesting and helpful too, because I believe the divine order is very marked: first Exodus -- what you have there; then Leviticus, and then Numbers. When you come to Numbers it is really the regulation of the walk of the people, in view really of what is established in Exodus, and maintained in Leviticus. Many of us, perhaps, have hardly taken up the question of walk from this point of view.

J.T. I think not. There are a very few who know what it is to take a board and carry it. There was a certain priest over a certain company of levites, and he was to allot them their work. They were not to touch the things in the holy places; the priests were to fold these up carefully, and then they were to be carried by the levites.

Ques. So you think levitical service is little understood?

J.T. I do not think priesthood is understood, and

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if you do not have priesthood, the levite does not know what to do. The levite depends on the priest, hence it is we have all kinds of incongruities in Christendom, for the reason that there is no priest to direct things. You cannot have things right without the priest.

J.P. It is the priest's lips that "keep knowledge". Malachi 2:7.

J.T. By the priest the order is maintained. The priest is the one who intercedes to God for man in relation to the things of God. God will not have anybody except a priest adjacent to His abode. Common people are not equal to the ordering of the things in the tabernacle. God will not have anything less than priests.

J.P. Could you give us in a very simple way your idea of a priest?

J.T. Evidently a priest must be related to the high priest, and that is what comes out here. It is a question of your relation to Christ. You must be of the order of Aaron to be a priest, and you are not equal to the surroundings, or fit for the divine presence, unless you are a priest.

J.P. Our qualification for priesthood is seen in this chapter: "He that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one". Hebrews 2:11. If not really up to our privilege inside (I refer to priesthood), we are not up to the path outside.

J.T. You must have the three things -- the tabernacle, the priests, and the levites, or you could not have the book of Numbers. In Exodus and Leviticus you get the services of the priests Godward: in Numbers public testimony is in view.

Rem. Hence, as priesthood is not understood, there is but little service for God.

J.T. It is because priesthood is not realised that the tabernacle is but little in the minds of Christians. A true priest looks for the tabernacle. Priestly service is properly connected with it.

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W.H.T. The divine system is not apprehended.

J.T. But you will find with those who are in the enjoyment of priestly privilege, that the tabernacle has a very great place. They understand that you cannot have the display of what God is, nor approach to Him, without having that which He has ordained. You cannot have to say to divine things, you cannot touch them, unless you are a priest; but I am afraid the great mass of believers are content to be in the camp -- that was the outer circle, beyond even the levitical sphere.

Ques. Would you say that was where the Corinthians were?

J.T. There was a lack of what is priestly (love was not in evidence), and that was where the difficulty lay. There was a lack of priests, but I suppose a good deal of activity.

Ques. How would you say the carrying of the ark comes in today?

J.T. The divine order was that the levites should carry it. That is what David had to learn. But before the levite can carry the ark, the ark must be taken down and carefully covered by the priests. The ark typified Christ personally. His Person is carefully guarded by the priests, but there is nevertheless public testimony respecting Him.

Ques. What class of man would you call a priest today?

J.T. The initiatory thought of a priest is that he is of the order of Aaron. He is of the sons of Aaron: that is, he must be related to Christ -- of His order.

W.H.F. Our place is within.

J.T. Christians are all priests from the divine side. It is our privilege to be priests. I think what we all require to understand is that we are of His stock.

Rem. We are priests because we are sons.

J.T. We are priests in the sense, as it says, that He that sanctifies and those sanctified are all of one.

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J.P. That brings the priestly company into view.

J.T. Many think it is too much to assume to be of His order: that is, that you have no past sinful history. From this point of view you are derived entirely from Christ.

W.H.F. You are not content to remain outside.

J.T. You want to know the blessedness of having to say to God in relation to His sphere of things.

J.P. I think what you say is important; that from God's side every Christian is seen as a priest. That is, they are all sons, and all really of this sanctified company, and I think it is a great moment in the history of our souls when there is the distinct and yet simple recognition of it. Many beloved saints perhaps have never come to that -- the distinct realisation in their souls that they really are of His order.

W.J.N. What would you say is generally the hindrance in reaching that?

J.P. There may be more than one thing that operates to hinder. I think there are some real souls, with a measure of exercise, and who have learned themselves, who are hindered by the very fact that they have. In view of what they have learned of themselves they think it too much to take the position of being of the sanctified company. Really the great point is that He is not ashamed to call us brethren. Then, of course, there may be many a beloved saint affected by things here, and in that way hindered.

J.T. If you were to have taken the tabernacle away from that company in the wilderness, see what a vast difference it would have made!

J.P. If you had taken that away it would have spoiled everything. Any company of people might go through a wilderness, but my idea of the journey across the wilderness is that it derived character and importance from the tabernacle, as that in which

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God dwelt. The people went though the wilderness in connection with the tent of testimony.

J.T. What exercises me is that Christians are not more occupied with that which is so essential to us in the wilderness -- the tabernacle.

J.P. The expression "the wilderness" is very common with us, and frequently upon our lips, but it has been a very serious question in my soul as to how far we have taken in the right thought as to it. I fear with many of us the idea of the wilderness is that it refers to the details of our personal, everyday life down here in flesh, and we have hardly had any thought of the tabernacle, which is really that which gives proper character to the wilderness journey.

J.T. The wilderness journey is simply the situation we have down here in relation to the tabernacle of witness. The common people might have had plenty of occupation, but if the tabernacle were taken away, the priests and levites would have nothing to do. This illustrates the condition of things in Christendom.

J.P. If the priests and levites are not to be found, the common people fare badly.

J.T. They may be active, but they are not deriving the benefits God intended they should derive from the priests and levites.

J.B. The children of Israel only knew the way by the progress of the tent of testimony.

W.J.N. I suppose in speaking of the wilderness, we use the word "wandering" very often; I think if we get everything in relation to the tabernacle we shall not find wandering, but we shall find order. If everything had been adjusted in connection with the tabernacle, it would have been divinely-ordered journeying.

J.T. I think God would recover to us, if it is not already recovered, the thought of the tabernacle.

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You cannot have the divine thought of order unless you have that. Directly redemption was accomplished you have the establishment of the tabernacle, and afterwards everything was regulated by it.

The tabernacle is the prominent feature in Hebrews, because the object of the Spirit is to bring Christ in relation to the divine system before the minds of the saints so that they should not give up; that they should continue. What is in view as to those addressed may be found in the end of chapter 10: "Cast not away therefore your confidence, which has great recompense. For ye have need of endurance in order that, having done the will of God, ye may receive the promise. For yet a very little while He that comes will come, and will not delay. But the just shalt live by faith; and, if he draw back, my soul does not take pleasure in him. But we are not drawers back to perdition, but of faith to saving the soul". Hebrews 10:35 - 39. It is a question of faith and continuance. These are seen in one who is in the light of God's system, God's testimony. "The just shall live by faith". Then chapter 11 gives us the great examples of faith.

W.H.F. The great thing is to get back to that which was set up at the beginning.

J.T. Take Mr. Darby: the Lord took him up, and he began at once to set forth the testimony of God. That was what gave character to his whole life: the point with him was the testimony of God. If you find a priest, that is what marks him. He will stand alone rather than go on with anything not in accordance with the testimony of God.

W.J.N. In regard to the unseen things you were speaking of a moment ago, I have thought we are apt to look at them as being in the future, whereas the apostle speaks of them as being present.

J.P. The very form of the expression "While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the

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things which are not seen", (2 Corinthians 4:18) shows that they are to be looked at now. We may connect it with the opening of Colossians 3the things are there, and you seek them -- the things which are above.

J.T. What chapter 2 presents is Man over the habitable world to come, although this is not yet manifested: "We see not yet all things put under him, but we see Jesus ... crowned with glory and honour". Hebrews 2:8,9. Then I think the next point is that He is made perfect. It became God, "in bringing many sons to glory, to make perfect the leader of their salvation through sufferings". Hebrews 2:10.

J.P. I suppose those who heard Him would naturally speak of that of which He had spoken, and He has spoken. "The habitable world which is to come of which we speak". Hebrews 2:5. They could speak of what they had heard, and they had heard Him.

J.T. There is no question of territory or sphere in connection with the Apostle; it is revelation, but when Christ is seen as Man in relation to men, you must have territory; hence it is He is placed over the habitable world to come. Directly you get Him in connection with man, you get the sphere in which men are to be. All men are not to be there; there are also those who are to be in heaven. You get the habitable world, and then the many sons being brought to glory.

J.P. When you come to the opening of chapter 3 you consider the Apostle and High Priest: you do not consider two persons; you consider the Apostle and High Priest in one Person. That is really one of the features that proves the perfection of the new system. In the old order the apostle was one person, and the priest was another, and in that way is demonstrated the imperfection of it, because the priest was not equal to the apostle.

J.T. For the exercise of the function of priesthood, the Lord of necessity stands in relation to men. As

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Apostle He establishes what is for God, but as Priest He stands in relation to what He has established.

Ques. "Bringing many sons to glory" (Hebrews 2:10): is "glory" the display of what is established?

J.T. I suppose so. I always connect the glory of God with His nature. It is the shining-out of what God is morally. It is to that we are being brought.

Rem. Having everything suitable, the whole earth will be filled with it.

Ques. You would say, then, it is the privilege of the priests to enter into the holiest? What do they learn there?

J.T. They learn there in Christ what the mind of God is. They get an apprehension of Christ as the One by whom God effects everything. The holiest is the presence of God in Christ, but it is God as known in the manner in which He effects the counsels of His love. We can only understand it by the Spirit.

J.P. There is nothing there according to man.

J.B. We are brought to glory as sons. As sons we are of Christ's order.

J.T. The Leader has already reached that position; He is installed as having gone through all that was necessary to fit Him for it. A wonderful thing for the sons, that they have such a Leader!

J.R. Salvation has a wonderful character here, because it really involves your being brought to glory; that is, you are brought into all that is connected with this wonderful sphere. It is a great salvation.

Rem. I suppose you would say we need more enlightenment as to Christ in order to be in the good of it.

J.T. We have to be built up in the Spirit so as to be able to take the place involved in "He that sanctifies and those sanctified are all of one". Hebrews 2:11. A person recently converted could hardly take that

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round in the state of his soul. It is wonderful to see what is in this Scripture, but we should be exercised about entering into it in the power of the Spirit.

J.P. I am sure that the measure of our apprehension is the measure of our being built up. You do not get it from a reading, or a lecture. There you may have your attention called to things, but you have to be built up in order to apprehend them, otherwise you get things in your head; but if you get them as the result of being built up, then you are established and settled.

J.T. Yes, and you are not going to be moved away. You are going to stand by that which is going to stand. Here we have what God has established, and you are not going to be moved away from it one iota, because it is that which will abide.

J.B. The priests and what is established go together.

J.T. They do indeed, and you will find wherever the Spirit is working, the divine system of things will be made prominent.

W.J.N. I think the danger on our part is very often slothfulness in regard to what is divinely set up here.

J.T. One would like to see the interest of the saints aroused as to what God has ordained. It is brought in for us; we have to say to every part of it, but more particularly to that in it which is most exalted and blessed -- the holiest of all.

Rem The Spirit of God will not be diverted from that.

J.T. If you do not go in for it, somebody else will. The Lord is not going to be dependent upon any of us, and you will find the effort of the enemy is to divert the saints from this.

W.H.F. If you go in for it you will have divine support.

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J.T. And all the blessing of God is there. One reason why saints are so important is that you cannot have things in working order without them. Now that is not at all derogatory to Christ, because He has established the things, and the saints are made by Him essential to what He has established, hence the Spirit of God is bent upon getting the saints into priestly trim.

J.P. In John 17 the Lord says, "I am glorified in them" (that is, in the saints here) John 17:10. Now the Holy Ghost glorifies Christ, but if you leave out the saints, the Spirit has no vessel in which to glorify Christ. Instead of obscuring His glory, it is the divine way of having Christ glorified at the present time.

J.B. And by and by too.

J.P. Yes. There will be nothing different in principle by and by from what is now.

J.T. He is coming to be "glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe". 2 Thessalonians 1:10.

Rem. Everybody would agree with you that it is God's thought that He should be displayed in the saints down here, but the church has failed and is inadequate to set forth Christ.

J.P. We must see what God's thought was in setting up the church; then let us act accordingly, otherwise we shall be discouraged.

J.T. You are not going to start anything else. You may say all depends upon Christ. Now it is absolutely true that you cannot have anything without Christ, but you cannot have the Lord Jesus Christ leading the praises in the assembly without the assembly.

J.B. I think the assembly is that in which He has His peculiar pleasure and joy.

W.J.N. So it requires one to be in the light of what God has established in order to rise above the present confusion and ruin. I have been struck in reading

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the account of Elijah how he ordered twelve stones to be brought together.

J.P. And that sixty-nine years after the kingdom had been divided.

J.B. King Hezekiah "sent to all Israel". In his mind they were God's people as He set them up. I think there has been very little teaching amongst the saints to connect them in their souls with what God has set up. Instead, the effort has been to make them very sure as to their salvation from eternal judgment, therefore they have missed what really should have been a blessed joy and delight to them in going through this world. All is put off until another day.

J.P. There is something else besides ourselves and our individual blessings.

J.T. There is that which is in the mind of God, His order of things, and that is what He has before Him; and everyone with whom the Spirit of God has His way is engaged with that.

J.P. It should be a very serious consideration with us. You see it states, God has spoken "in Son". Hebrews 1:2. There might be some excuse if He had not spoken; but He has spoken, and there is nothing more to be added. And we have what is inaugurated. The presence of the Holy Ghost in and with the saints is positive demonstration of that which is established.

J.T. What an immense thing it would be if the saints were to be exercised about these things, so that when we come together we might prove the practical working out of them. The Lord would then have His own way amongst us.

J.P. The Lord would recover us to what is in His own mind. This, I believe, is the great point at the present time.

J.T. For the past thirty years He has been seeking to do it through His servants, and what for? To the end that the saints might go in for it,

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and contend earnestly for what has been recovered to us; that the Lord might have us with Him as His companions: that we might enter into the things of God.

J.B. I do not think we can go on at all apart from going on with what God has set up.

J.T. You cannot preach Christ fully without bringing that in.

Ques. Will you explain your meaning?

J.T. You must bring forward the things that indicate His greatness, and which He has brought to pass for the glory of God and the blessing of men.

Rem. You would say that it is the whole sphere of faith. Jude says, "Building yourselves up on your most holy faith". Jude 20.

J.B. How could the children of Israel have gone through the wilderness if they had not been led as they were?

J.T. There were no roads, and so they were dependent entirely for guidance on the tent of the testimony. As guided by it they were led aright, and they marched in perfect order. Balaam said, "How goodly are thy tents, O Jacob, and thy tabernacles, O Israel!" Numbers 24:5. Every tribe was in its position in relation to the tabernacle of witness. Christendom is a disorganised mass -- every man doing what is right in his own mind.

Rem. All that Balaam saw was blessing.

J.T. Yes. The different prophecies he uttered give an account of what he saw.

Rem. In the days of Josiah order was brought out of confusion because the things of God had their place.

J.T. So it is in our own day. It is the great desire of every thoroughly exercised person to see things according to God. That is the point. Some think new principles must be introduced because the church has failed, etc., but any divinely effective

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preaching must be according to the original order ordained of God.

R.S.S. Could we have a little as to chapter 3?

J.T. The exhortation refers to chapters 1 and 2. "Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession". Hebrews 3:1.

J.P. That is a great point. It is all set forth in Him.

J.T. Then you get the thought of building, leading up to the thought that the saints are the house of God for the moment, and the Holy Ghost speaking in the house.

Ques What is the force of "confession" here?

J.T. Our confession would indicate what the saints anticipated by faith.

J.B. There is no reason why we should be slow in confessing these things, because a priest glories in the things of God. He is outside the course of this world -- another man -- when he becomes a priest. If you were a Roman Catholic priest you would be a different man from what you are. The very fact of your being one would make you different. You would be connected with a system, and the system and the man are bound up together.

J.T. That comes out clearly in the Roman Catholic church. Every priest knows he is irrevocably attached to the system.

R.S.S. They have the imitation; we want to have the reality.

W.J.N. Confession would refer to that which, while it exists, has not yet been manifested.

J.T. It refers to what Christians confess in their testimony.

Ques Would you say a word as to the calling in that connection?

J.T. Our calling is distinctively heavenly, and this is made very prominent in this epistle. The

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Hebrew Christians were "holy brethren" as set apart by God in the power of the Spirit.

Ques Would you say every Christian has holiness? In Hebrews 12 we read, "without which (holiness) no man shall see the Lord". Hebrews 12:14.

J.T. Every one that has the Spirit is holy, but we must pursue holiness. Holiness lies in the nature in which we are formed by the Spirit.

Rem Peter speaks of saints as a "holy priesthood". 1 Peter 2:5.

J.T. We are to consider Christ in these two lights -- Apostle and High Priest. He is greater than Moses, because He that builds the house is greater than the house.

R.S.S. Why is the thought of the house introduced here?

J.T. It seems to be brought in in connection with the Builder. The Builder is of necessity greater than the house He builds. "He who has built all things" (Hebrews 3:4) is an allusion to the tabernacle. The tabernacle was a figure of all things. God has built all things, but it was really the Son who built them, so it speaks of His greatness. But in the future the house of God will be the whole universe. He is not in all now; His house is at present limited to Christians, for the reason that He can only dwell in that which is holy. Christians are His house because they are holy. All things will be anointed with oil.

J.B. So it includes the heavens and the earth.

W.J.N. Will Christ then occupy the position of Priest?

J.T. I think priesthood is in a sense eternal.

J.P. Like David, He will be Priest and King.

J.T. The thought of Christ as Priest in things relating to God is wonderful.

R.S.S. And to remember He is this as on our side.

J.T. And as such sustaining that marvellous system of things which God has established.

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Ques. Do you think it will be necessary through all eternity for Him to be Priest on our side?

J.T. "For ever" in Scripture means to the end of time, rather than what we call "eternal state". The Scriptures do not deal much with anything beyond that.

J.B. There is very little spoken of the new heavens and new earth.

J.T. Very little. The point, I think, is that there is no other priest or king to come after Him. He does not continue King throughout eternity, but at the same time He is said to sit on the throne of David forever, and to rule over the house of Jacob forever.

Rem He is a Priest forever after the order of Melchisedec.

J.T. It means, I think, that there is no other priest to come in afterwards.

J.B. Like the "Last Adam": He is never to be succeeded.

J.T. So the word finality applies to Christ in every aspect in which you may view Him. There is nothing after Christ.

R.S.S. He is "the Amen".

J.T. The Priest sustains all that was established by the Apostle. Moses was the prominent figure in Exodus, but in Leviticus it is more Aaron and his sons, and Jehovah speaks out of the tabernacle. It supposes the tabernacle actually set up.

J.P. In Leviticus redemption is already accomplished, otherwise the tabernacle could not have been set up.

R.S.S. All on the basis of the passover.

The Holy Ghost is spoken of as speaking here: could you give us a thought as to that?

J.T. The Holy Ghost speaks in the house. Christians are the house: "Whose house are we, if indeed we hold fast the boldness and the boast of

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hope firm to the end". Hebrews 3:6. When you get the saints brought in, the Spirit is supposed to be there. Then you have the oracles, "Wherefore, even as says the Holy Spirit". Hebrews 3:7.

J.B. "He dwelleth with you, and shall be in you". John 14:17.

J.T. The speaking here is not exactly revelation, but more exhortation that they should not harden their hearts. It is still the wilderness position clearly, because he goes on to speak of some who had not entered into the rest.

J.P. It cannot be revelation, because revelation is completed in the Apostle.

J.T. But you can have exhortation in the house. You get this to the end.

J.P. And what a mercy you get it in the house!

J.T. Yes, and the object of it is that you should go on to what is in the mind of God for His people -- His rest.

R.S.S. How would you say the Holy Ghost is speaking at the present time?

J.T. I believe the Holy Ghost is addressing the people of God out of the house continuously. We ought to look for the expression of God's mind at the moment. In this case the saints were in danger of drawing back in unbelief. The question is, "What is the present danger?" I think you will find that whatever the danger is, the Holy Ghost will endeavour to make it clear. God has been connected by people with positive and most apparent disorder. I think God feels that, and would call the attention of His people to the order He established.

R.S.S. And I suppose there is never a time when something of that sort is not prominent: something to which He is especially calling our attention.

J.T. Anyone at all acquainted with the history of the church knows that the Spirit of God from time

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to time called the attention of the saints to certain dangers.

J.B. He has never left Himself without a witness.

W.J.N. And I suppose what the Spirit of God is giving at the present moment is that which is most calculated to exercise each individual. It is so easy to turn to what is past, and there is no special exercise called for in regard to it.

J.P. You are right. We do not always like to have our attention called to what is in us. "Lest there be in any of you a wicked heart of unbelief". Hebrews 3:12.

J.T. But we are to encourage ourselves each day, as long as it is called To-day, that none of us be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. "For we are become companions of the Christ if indeed we hold the beginning of the assurance firm to the end". Hebrews 3:14.

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READING ON THE EPISTLE TO THE HEBREWS

Hebrews 7.

J.P. Our previous readings led us to the end of chapter 3. What would be the connection in chapters 4 - 6?

J.T. I suppose that in these chapters the priesthood is seen in relation to our need down here; this is especially so in chapters 4 and 5, while at the end of chapter 6 the Lord is viewed as having entered within the veil, as Forerunner for us. As Forerunner Christ is there representatively, and this lays the ground for chapter 7.

J.P. In chapter 7 the saints are regarded in the light of the heavenly calling; they are not seen in connection with their actual condition and circumstances down here, as in the earlier part of the epistle.

J.T. Hence the necessity for such a great Priest. "For such an high priest became us, holy, harmless, undefiled, separated from sinners, and become higher than the heavens". Hebrews 7:26.

J.P. In chapter 2 there was what became God, what was suitable to Him, "For it became him for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the Captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings" (Hebrews 2:10) but is it not wonderful that the saints have such a marvellous calling that the Spirit of God can say it became them to have such a High Priest?

Ques. Would you say the Priest is brought in in order to clear His people?

J.T. In chapter 2 He makes propitiation for the sins of the people, and following upon that you get needed succour for the wilderness; but all to the end that you should take up the other line -- the heavenly calling. I think the gospel of Luke properly presents the Priest -- in connection with man's need. I

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suppose the gospel of Matthew is the King; the gospel of Mark would be the Prophet; the gospel of John is the Person of the Lord Jesus Christ, but the gospel of Luke is the Priest.

R.S.S. Would Luke correspond with chapters 4 and 5 of this epistle?

J.T. Very much. If you consider the opening of the gospels, you get an idea as to the point of view taken in each. Take the gospel of Matthew: it opens with "The generation of Jesus Christ, Son of David, Son of Abraham". Matthew 1:1. That is to say, the point in view is the Heir, arid evidently the male line comes into evidence, reaching to Joseph. Much more is said in this gospel of Joseph than of Mary. The male is more prominent, but when you come to the gospel of Luke, you are struck with the greater prominence of the woman. The woman being so prominent gives an idea that it is humanity and Christ in relation to it, that is in view. The gospel opens with the priest, whose wife, Elizabeth, is of the daughters of Aaron; then you get Mary, and Anna.. Of course John the Baptist and Simeon appear, but it is very remarkable how prominent the women are. Christ is seen as the Priest in connection with man according to his state; not man in responsibility, but man in dire necessity. The idea of a priest is more to meet man in his need. All the parables in the gospel of Luke support that line. It is in this gospel we get the widow at the gate of Nain, and she, to my mind, represents the point of view taken in Luke. Her only son is dead, and she is a widow. Here the priest comes into view -- the Lord sees her, and has compassion on her.

J.P. So the Samaritan in chapter 10 had compassion on the man who fell among the thieves. The priest, who passed by on the other side, had the title, clothes, and all that, but there was nothing of the real priest about him, or he would never have passed by on the other side. When the real Priest came He

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had compassion, and went to him, and began to minister to his need: He bound up the wounds, and poured in the oil and wine, That is the Priest.

Ques. Is that what He is anointed for in chapter 4?

J.T. I think so. "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor, he hath sent me to heal the broken hearted", etc. Luke 4:18. I think the picture we get in Luke 4 is most interesting. It says, "All bear him witness, and wondered at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth". Luke 4:22. All this speaks of the true Priest.

Ques Would the throne of grace be connected with the Priest?

J.T. Yes. In the apprehension that such a Priest has passed through the heavens, you come boldly to receive mercy and find grace. If you consider Christ down here, you have no difficulty in regard to God: you go to God with the utmost liberty, because when the Lord was down here He always relieved people on the part of God, and there is no change. Then further, as the passage before us states, the Priest is able to sympathise with our infirmities, having been tempted as we are, sin apart.

We may notice that it is not simply a question of meeting our need: the ultimate end is that we should not let go the confession, "Having therefore a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast the confession".

J.P. Do you not think we have been hindered in entertaining the thought in our minds, in connection with this part of the priesthood of the Lord Jesus Christ, that meeting our need was the great finality? We have not gone on to the second part -- the heavenly calling. If the Lord Jesus Christ in this wonderful priestly service meets our need, it is to set us free to take up the other side: the heavenly calling and the sanctuary.

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W.H.F. I believe we have been hindered a great deal by officialism, as represented in Luke 10 by the priest who passed by on the other side. When the true Priest comes in, the need of man is met.

J.T. It illustrates the mode of divine action. Where officialism comes into view, God acts through One who had no recognised function at all. He was the Samaritan who journeyed, and came where he was. Ostensibly He had no commission when He was here, but He was the One who could relieve the man, and that is the true Priest. All the true priestly habiliments could be seen in Christ if you had eyes to see them, but to the natural eye He was the Samaritan who journeyed.

Ques Why was He represented by a Samaritan?

J.T. Because the Samaritans were under reproach. He was inferior to the Jew: he was not even one of the common people: he had no standing at all. He was not a priest, a levite, nor even one of the common people, but One who was outside altogether.

J.P. It is wonderful to see how Christ forces that lawyer to acknowledge that the Samaritan was the true neighbour. It makes clear what the word "neighbour" really implies. It links it with the Lord as Priest. Christ is the true Neighbour, the One who takes account of the need of man, and in perfect priestly compassion and grace meets that need.

J.T. It is wonderful to take things up as the Spirit has presented them to us in Luke's gospel. It is a question of following up what is in the heart of Christ, coining near to man to relieve him. If we are to receive benefit from the Priest, it is in relation to the confession. The Lord never deals with us simply as so many units: He supports us in relation to the confession.

J.P. The confession puts the saints together.

J.T. Yes, the confession involves our testimony.

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J.P. You see the operation of it in a human way, in certain great bodies united together by a certain confession for instance, the Westminster confession.

J.T. The great point is that you hold fast the light you have received, and so witness to it. Do not give it up. We all know the many things that come in (worldly advancements, pleasures, bereavements, etc.), which tend to induce us to falter; but here the priesthood of Christ comes in to support us so that we may not falter.

J.P. The confession is a great thing in this chapter and also in chapter 10. There you enter into the holiest, and the first thing you come out to do is to "hold fast the confession of the hope unwavering". Hebrews 10:23.

J.T. The Spirit of God has ever what is collective in view, and this in relation to the testimony. We all quote Scripture, and get comfort out of it, but we often forget that the comfort and support we get are in view of holding fast the confession. But at the same time the Lord takes pleasure in relieving His people.

J.P. I suppose if we were more enlightened and exercised with regard to holding fast the confession, we should realise more than we do the importance of the throne of grace.

J.T. I think it is of immense importance to see that there is a throne of grace for us, and that it stands connected with the confession.

R.S.S. What would you say were the chief characteristics of the Priest?

J.T. In the first place, he must be a man: "Wherefore it behoved him in all things to be made like to his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things relating to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people". Hebrews 2:17. Then He must have compassion, and be sympathetic. Compassion supposes ability to remove what may be the

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occasion of the pressure, but in sympathy the lord supports us as under the pressure. Then "The priest's lips should keep knowledge". Malachi 2:7 The priest instructs, "They should seek the law at his mouth for he is the messenger of the Lord of hosts". The teaching of the people in Old Testament times was connected with the priest.

J.B. There is deep sympathy in the Priest's heart: there is nothing in which He does not deeply sympathise with you, sin apart.

J.T. The things which befall us in the way of discipline would cause us to falter, but the Lord comes in and keeps us from being discouraged. When Paul is under such fearful pressure in Jerusalem the Lord stands by him that night and says, "Be of good cheer, Paul for as thou hast testified of me in Jerusalem, so must thou bear witness also at Rome". Acts 23:11. This supports what we have been saying; it was a question of the testimony. It was not to relieve Paul of his discouragement only, but rather that the testimony might be rendered by him.

J.P. Speaking again of the priest's lips keeping knowledge, do you not think there was an apprehension of that on the part of Mary of Bethany? It follows the parable of the Samaritan in Luke 10she sat at His feet, and heard His word. He is still the Priest, only now it is in the communication of knowledge.

J.T. And so as you proceed in chapter 11 the disciple says, "Lord, teach us to pray". Luke 11:1. He wants to be instructed, and the Lord teaches them how to pray.

W.J.N. In Luke 11 the gift of the Spirit is referred to.

J.T. "How much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him". Luke 11:12. The gift of the Spirit by Christ, as having received it from the Father, is a priestly act.

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Ques. Is it in connection with blessing?

J.T. Blessing and relief.

J.B. The Priest teaches what is in the heart of God. He knows.

J.P. It is wonderful to see to the very end of the gospel of Luke how Christ is presented as Priest. Note the account the Spirit has given of His death it is not the Victim, but the Offering-Priest that is seen: the One who through the eternal Spirit offers Himself, and as risen He is still the Priest. The last act was His hands lifted up in blessing.

J.T. Beautiful And having gone into heaven He received of the Father the promise of the Spirit, and shed Him forth -- it was a priestly act.

J.P. I think one might say it reverently that those blessed hands have never been put down. They are still lifted up.

J.T. Yes. And although all is for the blessing of His own, it is also with a view to the maintenance of the testimony. "As thou hast testified of me in Jerusalem, so must thou bear witness also at Rome". Acts 23:11.

J.P. And at Rome the Lord stood by Paul, and strengthened him.

J.T. Exactly. "That by me the preaching might be fully known". 2 Timothy 4:17. It is all a question of the testimony. He has a heart that is sympathetic, and enters into all our feelings, but with a view to our being maintained in connection with the testimony.

Rem. Would you say as that Priest abides for ever, that the testimony will be maintained to the end?

J.T. The support of the testimony depends upon the Priest. He will stand by those who stand by the testimony to the end. Our great point should be to see to it that we are holding fast the confession.

Rem. That is what Paul wanted to impress on Timothy.

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J.P. Yes, not to he ashamed of the testimony of our Lord.

J.T. And, "Be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God". 2 Timothy 1:8.

W.H.F. Will you give us some little thought as to the testimony? I think there is a good deal of misunderstanding as to what the testimony really is.

J.T. I think the gospel, if you take it in its fullest and widest sense, is the testimony.

J.P. That is clearly so in 2 Timothy 1.

W.H.F. The testimony is in regard to what is coming in.

J.T. There is the testimony of God, the testimony of Christ, and the testimony of our Lord; then the Spirit of prophecy is said to be the testimony of Jesus, but this deals with the earth. In a general way, I think the gospel may be said to be the testimony. The ark of the covenant and the tent of testimony present different thoughts. The Ark refers to Christ personally and is more secret, whereas the tent refers to what is public. The latter evidently depends upon the former: everything indeed depends upon the Ark of the Covenant. I think the tent of the testimony may be connected with 1 Timothy, while the Ark of the covenant is in view in 2 Timothy. When the public thing fails Christ personally, as the One who effects everything for God eternally, becomes more prominent. Still the tent of testimony remains, and will hold good even in the millennium. The Ark is ever Christ Himself.

Ques. What is the difference between the testimony and the mystery, as we get it in Ephesians?

.J.T. The mystery is what is hidden now, but which is to become known publicly. The mystery is included in the gospel. The church is spoken of as "the mystery of the gospel". Ephesians 6:19.

W.H.F. It is when standing for the testimony you are brought into conflict.

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Ques. Would you say that is what Satan has been attacking all along?

J.T. Yes.

Ques. Is the testimony that God is going to head up all things in Christ?

J.T. Yes, but the testimony of God refers to His nature, and so must include the gospel of His glory: that is, that in which God is expressed according to His nature for the relief and blessing of men. The "testimony of the Christ" would refer to Him as placed over all things, and stands connected, 1 Corinthians 9, with "the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ" and "the day of our Lord Jesus Christ".

W.J.N. Do you not think in announcing the gospel the tendency is to lose sight of the testimony? That is what hinders us. We indicate Christ as Priest on the side merely of man's need, and lose sight of the fact that it is the purpose of God that all things should be headed up in Him.

J.T. Yes. The Scriptures give an account of the different features of the testimony, and I think the gospel announces all those things as having taken form, and they are presented as available for the good and blessing of man, and also as forming that in which God displays Himself.

J.P. Does that not come out clearly in the end of Ephesians, where the apostle asks the prayers of the saints, and speaks of making known the mystery of the gospel? I was thinking of how the gospel so wonderfully covers and includes everything.

Ques Is the gospel larger than the mystery?

J.P. Certainly -- the mystery is in the gospel.

Ques. You spoke of its being available now. How is it available?

J.T. The Priest has made it available. When He was here He healed people physically, but on the ground of accomplished redemption He has, in the power of the Holy Ghost, provided a sphere, in which

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men may find escape and relief from the world-system. He has brought the means of relief into the scene of need.

J.P. Because He was actually going to take up the position of Priest on high.

J.T. That is it. He has taken up the position of Priest at the right hand of God, and the effect of it is that all that is required to meet human need is introduced. That is the thing to see. The gospel announces what that wonderful Priest has brought in. The church, the kingdom, the house, have all been instituted by the Priest on the ground of redemption.

Ques. Does it not go further than relief?

J.T. Yes, as we have been saying, it is to the end that there should be a testimony on the part of God.

W.H.F. It has a double bearing: on the one hand making things available to men, and on the other meeting divine purposes.

J.T. The latter is seen in chapter 7, where the greatness of the Priest is seen as necessitated by the great calling of which He is Priest, "such an high priest became us". Hebrews 7:26. Here the Priest and the company are viewed in relation to divine purposes. Then in chapter 8 the Lord is seen as "minister of the holy places, and of the true tabernacle which the Lord has pitched and not man". Hebrews 8:2. All this is on the divine side.

W.H.F. Would you say that on our side it is the means to the end that we should be led into divine purpose?

J.T. First of all to hold fast your confession; then further, that you should understand the greatness of your calling it is so great that you require this great Priest, and what chapter 8 presents is the system which God has established, and that required a Minister.

J.B. I suppose that what is confessed is apprehended by the one that confesses it.

Rem The new company and the new system

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involve a new priest, and this chapter gives us that Person.

W.H.F. I think it is a good thing to be set free in our spirits in order that the Priest may conduct us into divine purpose.

J.T. "Now consider", he says, "how great this personage was". Hebrews 7:4.

J.B. I have linked this chapter in my mind with the first chapter of this epistle.

J.T. Yes, the importance of the first chapter is, I think, that it emphasises the importance of what was spoken, but the importance of this chapter is that it emphasises the importance of the company. The speaking is great because of the greatness of the Speaker, and the company is great because it requires such a great Priest. This chapter is not exactly to emphasise the greatness of the Person of Christ. If you want a Scripture that emphasises the personal greatness of Christ specifically, you get it in John 1. The Jewish Christian did not doubt Messiah's greatness. We should seek to enter into the greatness of our calling. It is the true way of deliverance.

J.P. There are two parts in Hebrews. Chapter 7, verse 25 ends the first part, and verse 26 is the beginning of the second. The saints in the first part are seen in relation to their need down here: in the second they are viewed in the light of "holy brethren", "partakers of the heavenly calling", (Hebrews 3:1) and their calling is so great that no less a Person than Christ will do as Priest. Look at that expression! "For such an high priest became us", Hebrews 7:26. Then in the first verse of chapter 8: "We have such a one high priest who has sat down on the right hand of the throne of the greatness in the heavens; minister of the holy places and of the true tabernacle which the Lord has pitched, and not man".

J.T. It is not that we need the Priest, that we have had previously, but "such a high priest became

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us", because we are looked at in the light of divine purpose, and in the greatness of our calling.

J.P. It would be a most interesting moment if the light of this should break in upon our souls.

J.T. It brings you out of all human littleness into the greatness of your calling. It is not what we are here as in the flesh: it is the saints viewed according to divine purpose.

J.B. As God sees them in relation to Christ.

J.T. As Balaam saw them. Balaam sees the people having his eyes open, and we want to get our eyes open to see the true lineage and heavenly calling of the saints. What might have been seen inside the tents of Israel has often been remarked upon: there was not much beauty in the people after the flesh. Here it is the saints viewed from the divine standpoint.

J.P. If we could come into "the vision of the Almighty", and apprehend the greatness of the saints in the light of the calling, it would be a great thing for us.

J.T. Not wishing to be anything here. The man who enters into the calling of God is the man who takes the place of nothingness here.

Ques. I would like to know what you mean by the company?

J.T. The saints associated with Christ viewed from the divine side.

Ques. Does that take in every saint?

J.T. Yes, from the divine side. There are very few saints great enough morally to take this up. No man in the light of this would think of himself as great because of his social status. An understanding of the heavenly calling makes nothing of us as men.

J.P. Do you not think that if the light of what is set forth in chapter 2 were in our souls (the many sons that are being brought to glory, and the Sanctifier and sanctified being all of one, for which cause the

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Lord is not ashamed to call us brethren), we would be prepared for what we find about the company later in the epistle?

Ques. What would you say verse 23 means? "And they have been many priests, on account of being hindered from continuing by death; but he, because of his continuing forever, has the priesthood unchangeable". Hebrews 7:23.

J.P. It is the contrast between the many priests under the law and the one Priest now. There had to be many because they kept dying.

J.B. "He ever liveth". I was thinking of Eli, his son, and the name of the child that was born -- Ichabod. The ark was taken, and so direct connection with God was broken.

J.P. The glory had departed.

J.T. The connection was again recovered by Samuel, the prophet; then the ark of the covenant was placed in Zion by the king, who had been raised up in mercy.

Rem. Then there is a day coming when the company will be right.

J.T. That is so now from the divine side and you could not have to say to God in connection with the tabernacle were it not true. We should prove our greatness as to God's calling by accepting the place of nothingness here. The knowledge of our calling is a secret to ourselves.

We cannot enter into the assembly privilege unless we take account of ourselves from the divine side. As the brethren of Christ we are not viewed as in flesh and blood, but as derived from Him as the Corn of wheat who fell into the ground and died. The disciples come into view as His brethren directly He rose from the dead, but they were incapable of taking this up apart from the work of the Holy Ghost in them.

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Ques. Does the company derive its greatness from the fact of its connection with Christ?

J.T.. From the fact of its having been derived from Him. "He that sanctifies and those sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren". Hebrews 2:11.

J.B. I do not see how we can be maintained apart from the knowledge of that. I was going to speak of it in regard to David: if you have an exalted position God gives you capability to walk in it.

Rem . Romans 8:29 gives the other side. The point there is that Christ might be the Firstborn among many brethren.

J.T. Romans 8:29, and Hebrews 1:9, correspond but Hebrews 2:11, and Hebrews 7:26, set forth the greatness of the company. "Such a high priest became us, holy, harmless, undefiled, separated from sinners, and become higher than the heavens".

Ques. Would you say that the heavens are not high enough for Him?

J.T. I would, He has passed beyond all heavens.

J.B. "Jesus, the Son of God".

J.P. The characteristics of the saints in the light of the heavenly calling may be learned from the characteristics of the One who became them. He is "holy, harmless, undefiled, separated from sinners, and become higher than the heavens". It is marvellous.

J.T. The distinctive place of the church is indicated. While the tabernacle represented not only what is in heaven, but what will be on earth, Christians come into the heavenly side; they are made partakers of the heavenly calling. The church has the great privilege of sharing the sanctification of Christ, and at the same time having a place in the heavenlies. Whilst the world and the Jew are still under the power of evil, God has begun to work in that which will have the first place in connection with Christ in His

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universe. The "church of the firstborn enregistered in heaven". Hebrews 12:23.

J.P. And as you said we are privileged to be in the light of it all now. The day is coming when it will be openly displayed. The whole universe will have to recognise this company in the glory of Christ.

J.T. The disciples (Luke 10) were not to rejoice because the demons were subject to them. "Rather rejoice", the Lord said, "because your names are written in heaven". Luke 10:20.

Ques. What was the force of that?

J.T. I think it was that they were to be in every way conformed to Him, sharing His place in heaven. There are other families who will not have that privilege. The Lord says, "I beheld Satan as lightning falling out of heaven". Luke 10:18. His place will be occupied by Christ and the church.

J.B. In the end of chapter 6 Christ has entered as Forerunner for us. We shall all get there.

J.T. Chapter 7 verse 26, shows that we are great enough to be there. We shall not feel when we get to heaven that we are out of place. We shall have been formed for it.

When we come into display publicly we shall be perfectly equal to it. Properly it requires a great man to be a king. The saints are great because of their lineage. People think they can testify for God as in the flesh, but they cannot, because they are not great enough. They cannot do it because of what God is. None but priests (those who have to say to God in His own sphere), can bear testimony of God.

J.P. Saints have suffered greatly from this system of reduction. Almost every feature of the truth has been reduced to the level of man's mind. There is hardly a word more common in Christendom than testimony, but the thought of testimony needs

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to be enlarged and exalted in the apprehension of our souls. It is a very wonderful and blessed thing.

J.T. I think you see it in Paul, who in writing to the Corinthians, said, "And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech, or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God;" then he goes on to say that his word was "in demonstration of the Spirit, and of power". 1 Corinthians 2:1,4. That was suitable. I think it is a very serious thing to attempt to render testimony on the part of God aside from the evidences of divine power, because it discredits Him: it reduces the idea of God to the level of man's mind.

Rem. In Peter we get the holy priests before the royal priests.

J.T. Yes, the holy priests offer up sacrifices acceptable to God by Christ; then we get the royal priests later on. The idea of priesthood is wonderful: God surrounding Himself with people congenial to Him, arid such only are capable of representing Him.

J.B. They will represent Him perfectly in the day to come.

J.T. You see that in the heavenly city. God delights to surround Himself with priests, and they are to show forth the praises of Him who has called them out of darkness to His marvellous light.

Ques Not only testimony here, but testimony in the heavenlies also, is it not?

J.T. Yes. In the future this will be seen in the church.

J.B. It will give light to all the world.

J.T. Really the company in this epistle form the heavenly city, and you can understand how those in nearness to God would be the reflex of God. The city comes down from God out of heaven, having the glory of God.

J P. When you come to the wonderful unfolding of all the features of the divine system, chapter 12, the city stands in the front.

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Ques. Is it more in the light of common people that we are looked at in Hebrews?

J.T. I do not think so. That is what the Hebrew Christians were in danger of returning to. The flesh does not care for priesthood according to the divine idea of it, hence Christendom is a great camp of common people. There is consequently no order nor testimony according to God.

J.P. And no service for God.

Rem. The flesh is completely excluded from priesthood.

J.T. The very idea of priesthood precludes the flesh entirely. Christ as Priest was anointed with oil in the right of His own Person. With us, as priests, the blood precedes the oil: an indication that the flesh must go.

Rem. In the Roman Catholic church they have gone back to Old Testament ideas as to priests, etc., but they do not go in for priesthood in the true sense.

J.T. When light comes to people they realise that the systems set up in Christendom do not represent the true tabernacle. A real priest always looks for the true tabernacle which the Lord has pitched and not man. There is not a sect in Christendom pitched by the Lord. It is very easy to tell who pitched each one of them. The great comfort I have is that I am not compelled to associate myself with anything man has pitched. If you cannot associate yourself with what is according to the tabernacle the Lord has pitched, you can stand alone.

Ques. Where do you find the tabernacle now?

J.T. It is a question of the system connected with Christ in heaven.

Ques. Would you say the great thing is to be in the light of it in your soul?

J.T. Yes. Sometimes we hear it said, "I must associate myself with something, and so I have adopted the best I can find". But the true priest

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says, "I can go on with nothing but the tabernacle: it is in regard to it I am made a priest".

If you take the tabernacle away from the priests, as we were saying yesterday, their occupation is gone.

Ques What does the tabernacle stand for?

J.T. The tabernacle stands for all things. It represents that blessed system of things which God has formed for His own pleasure: that in which He shines out, and in which He is ministered to by man. You will find that directly a priest appears he will look for the tabernacle, and will begin to speak of it.

J.P. The idea of the tabernacle continues for ever: the tabernacle of God is to be "with men",

Ques. What would you say is the difference between the tabernacle and the temple?

J.T. The tabernacle was connected with the journeying of the people, and so had to be moved from place to place: it belonged properly to wilderness circumstances: there is not much said of it in Canaan, although it continued until the temple was built. But the temple refers to a fixed state of things: it is a fixed, permanent abode.

J.P. They drew out the staves of the ark when it was brought into the temple -- it was fixed. The church is said to grow to a holy temple in the Lord.

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READING ON THE EPISTLE TO THE HEBREWS

Hebrews 10:1 - 25.

R.S.S. Does chapter 8 introduce a new subject?

J.T. I think so: the new covenant is in view largely. The first two verses give a summary of the things of which He had spoken: "We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; a minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man;" (Hebrews 8:1,2) and then he goes on to the ministry that this Priest has: "Now he has got a more excellent ministry, by so much as he is mediator of a better covenant". Hebrews 8:6. The ministry exercised by Christ is superior to that exercised by Aaron according to the measure in which the new covenant is superior to the old. From verse seven to the end the covenant is dwelt upon, and chapter 9 returns to the thought of the tabernacle, with the object, I judge, of leading up to the "holiest of all" in chapter 10.

R.S.S. In what way is the covenant connected with the Priest?

J.T. In chapter 8 He is said to be the Mediator of the covenant. Priesthood stands connected with the tabernacle.

J.P. That is to say the thought of ministry is properly connected with the priest. A priest without any ministry would be, so to speak, no priest at all. The point is the ministry of this great Priest.

J.T. The mediatorship is not quite the point: it is simply brought in to emphasise the greatness of the ministry. The ministry is excellent because He is the Mediator of a better covenant.

J.P. "Which is established on the footing of better promises". Hebrews 8:6.

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W.H.F. Everything connected with the new system is perfect.

J.T. I think the first covenant was exceedingly weak: it depended for its fulfilment on man in the flesh, upon whom death had already passed: hence it could not be effective.

J.P. It was "weak through the flesh".

W.C.R. It was really a "ministration of condemnation", as you learn from 2 Corinthians 3:9.

J.T. It was, but that is not the point here. The point here is that the old covenant was ineffectual, and so God Himself found fault with it. "Finding fault, he says". Hebrews 8:8. It is, as it were, God testing something and finding it ineffective, He lays it aside.

J.P. But the new is perfectly effective. It depends entirely on God.

J.T. The old covenant secured nothing for God. It served a good purpose indeed, in that it brought sin home to man's conscience, "by law is knowledge of sin", but it did not effectuate the will of God.

The new covenant is not made with man: it is consummated "as regards the house of Israel and as regards the house of Juda:" (Hebrews 8:8) that is, God engages Himself to fulfil it: man is not responsible. God says, "Giving my laws into their mind, I will write them also upon their hearts", etc. Hebrews 8:10. There is no "if".

Ques. Where do we come in?

J.T. The new covenant applies to us in 2 Corinthians 3.

Rem. And it is seen in "the cup of blessing which we bless". 1 Corinthians 10:16.

J.T. The cup is the new covenant in His blood.

J.P. In 2 Corinthians 3 I think it is a new covenant-minister: not exactly a minister of the new Covenant.

J.T. Christ is the Minister of the new covenant. What gave rise to the covenant being introduced in 2 Corinthians was the thought of a letter of commendation,

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and the point was to emphasise the importance of Paul's ministry: that he was a new covenant-minister was what they had to understand.

J . B. It is of all importance to see that there is an entirely new order of things: in connection with the old there was a complete breakdown. Everything must be new.

J.T. So we have a new Priest, a new company, a new tabernacle, a new ministry, and a new covenant.

J.P. Would you say covenant refers to what God is in Himself?

J.T. It refers to what is in the heart of God for us. He constitutes a new covenant as regards the house of Israel and the house of Judah: that is, he expresses what is His disposition towards them. As Christ is the One who undertakes to be the Mediator of it, you can depend upon it that it will be perfectly carried out, to the end that we get the good of it. It is effectual.

W.C.R. And no one but Christ could undertake such a service.

J.H.G. You get, "Lo, I come to do thy will". Hebrews 10:9.

G.W.H. Speaking of Christ as Priest -- in Luke 10, is He not the covenant there? That is, He is seen as making known to man what is in God's heart.

J.T. I suppose He is that in the end of the chapter, where Mary is sitting at His feet. There He is expressing the mind and heart of God.

J.P. I should think so, because the covenant involves teaching.

J.T. The gospel of Luke is relative in a wonderful way. We were speaking of Christ as Priest meeting man's need but another important feature of priesthood is that He instructs man, so I think Luke 24 is a wonderful opening-up of Christ's position as Priest in the latter aspect. "He expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself". Luke 24:27.

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J.P. And as a result the disciples became acquainted with God and knew His mind.

Ques. What is the difference between the "new covenant" and "new creation"?

J.T. The new covenant is found in 2 Corinthians 3, and new creation in chapter 5. The new covenant was a question of the expression of God's love in the death of Christ. The apostle was a minister of that, but not of new creation. New creation refers to the subjective work of God in man's soul. "If any one be in Christ there is a new creation; the old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new; and all things are of the God who has reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ". 2 Corinthians 5:17.

J.P. New creation stands connected with the ministry of reconciliation.

J.T. The new covenant is a question of what God is toward man.

J.P. You have the gospel presented in a very simple way in 1 Corinthians 15; then in 2 Corinthians 3 the ministry of the new covenant, and in chapter 5 the ministry of reconciliation

J.T. The ministry of the new covenant is the expression of what God is toward man, and in reconciliation the point is the bringing of man in for Gods pleasure.

J.P. That is to say, in the ministry of the new covenant it is a question of what God is toward man: in the ministry of reconciliation it is a question of man being brought in perfect suitability to God.

J.T. You must have new creation for that.

W.J.N. Hebrews would hardly go on as far as new creation.

J.P. No.

W.J.N. Low as the state of the Corinthians was, after all there had been that which was for God there. For instance, "Ye are the epistle of Christ". 2 Corinthians 3:3.

J.P. I suppose when we come together to break

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bread, the Lord, by His Spirit, would set our souls in the light of what the new covenant means: the expression of God's love toward us.

J.T. Hence it is that we begin properly on the Lord's day morning with what God is toward us, and end with what we are to Him. It is a wonderful thing to see that God forms us for His pleasure: forms us to be congenial to Him. That is the idea of the assembly.

Ques. Would you say we really begin with the new covenant and end with reconciliation?

J.T. We end with the sense of what we are to God.

Ques. Does Hebrews go any further than the purging of the conscience?

J.T. I think not, as to our side: it does not deal with the formative work of the Spirit -- new creation.

Ques. Is this enjoyed individually?

J.T. Yes. "If any man be in Christ there is a new creation". 2 Corinthians 5:17. Every one of us must become the subject of the work of God, but it is to the end that we might all appear before God. The sons of God appear before Him, and He finds His delight in them as associated with Christ.

J.P. A covenant is not effective while a man lives: that is to say, until the death of Christ the new covenant was not effective. God's heart was always the same, but until death came in there was no confirmation of the covenant, but in the death of Christ it is made good, and when a man dies his will cannot be altered. It is a wonderful thing that God condescends to use human figures in that way, so that we may understand that there is no alteration in His mind. These are the terms upon which God deals with man now.

Ques. When it is a question of appearing before God, as I understand you, it must be in the light of His purpose, must it not?

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J.T. Yes; when we appear before God it is a question of what we are for God.

Rem. Arid the whole company is included there.

J.T. Yes. In Leviticus 23 there is that which refers to Christ personally: the sheaf of first-fruits, offered to Jehovah; then fifty days afterwards the two wave-loaves were presented. The latter typify the church as formed by the coming of the Spirit on the day of Pentecost. Christ and the church are seen there as for God -- waved "before Jehovah".

Ques. I do not think that I quite get hold of your thought regarding the Sunday morning meeting. You said something about what God's disposition is toward us.

J.T. That is what is before us -- what the cup presents to us. It is "the new covenant in my blood which is poured out for you", Luke 22:20.

J.P. The supper represents that by which the assembly is formed -- divine love.

W.J.N. I suppose knowledge of a purged conscience in itself would hardly give confidence in the presence of God. It is God's disposition towards us, as expressed in what the cup sets forth, that gives confidence in His presence.

J.T. The supper in itself does not go beyond the wilderness: it supposes the absence of the Lord, but properly we begin with it. Rightly apprehended it sets our affections in motion, and this leads on to association with Christ as His companions.

Ques. Is the holiest in chapter 10 privilege?

J.T. Yes, but it is not exactly the land of promise.

Ques. Is that the reason why we get the tabernacle spoken of in Hebrews instead of the temple?

J.T. It is the wilderness position in Hebrews, and the tabernacle is a prominent figure, but then it is perfectly in order when speaking of the new covenant -- the blessed revelation of the heart of God towards us -- that we should also speak of the answer

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to that in us, namely, worship, and this involves Canaan.

Ques . Would it be right to regard the supper as the entrance into the divine system?

J.B. In the supper the bread comes first, but then you get the cup, which is the new covenant in His blood, so you are before God in all the blessed reality of what is set forth in that.

J.T. The bread refers to His body given, by which there is a termination of the old order. Then what comes after the bread is the cup. That is not exactly the termination of the old order. It is the expression of what is in God's heart; hence it is called "the cup of blessing".

J.P. We enter upon all the blessedness of the new covenant.

J.T. But the bread represents that by which we are sanctified; we have been sanctified "through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all". Hebrews 10:10.

Ques You mean on the ground of the new covenant?

J.T. We begin with the end of the old order and all that belongs to it. We ought to read chapters 11 and 12 of 1 Corinthians together. The bread really ends the old order, and the cup in chapter 11 answers to the Spirit in chapter 12. The cup brings to us what is positive -- what is in the heart of God for us. The bread is more the negative side of the death of Christ.

R.S.S. The cup is the expression of the love of God. We cannot drink of the cup unless we are in the good of what the loaf means.

J.T. Because you cannot mix oil and water. You must apprehend the Lord's table, which the bread represents (that is to say, the exclusive character of it, the refusal of all that is contrary), before you can enter into the blessing.

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Rem. So you can take nothing of the old order over Jordan.

J.T. Indeed you cannot. In order to enjoy the blessing set forth in the cup, you must have mind and heart free from what you are in the flesh.

J.P. The Corinthians partook of the supper "not discerning the Lord's body". 1 Corinthians 11:29.

Ques. Do you distinguish between the table and the cup?

J.T. They are presented separately. "Ye cannot drink of the Lord's cup, and the cup of demons: ye cannot partake of the Lord's table, and the table of demons". 1 Corinthians 10:21. They are distinguished.

Rem. What I was thinking of was if it is a question of communion both are blessed, but the bread really represents what is negative. Would you say there is a difference between the Lord's table and the Lord's supper?

J.T. While, as we have been saying, the bread, symbolising the body of Christ, is negative, yet from another point of view it is positive, as representing the saints as one body -- "one bread". The bread viewed as the body of Christ given for us, sets our wills aside, and this makes room for the Lord's will in each one of us; so that we are no longer swayed by so many independent wills, but we are in the realisation of unity as under the influence of Christ. "We being many, are one loaf; for we are all partakers of that one loaf". 1 Corinthians 10:17.

J.B. You only get rid of your will by death.

J.T. By the body of Christ offered in death it is removed. Where there had been so many different wills, there is now only one. What Christendom presents is pretty much what is seen in the end of Judges: "Every man did that which was right in his own eyes". Judges 21:25. That is to say, if you get a dozen men you get a dozen wills, but that is not the idea of Christianity. There never will be any different

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wills among us if we are walking consistently with the supper.

J.P. I recognise every believer walking consistently with the supper; he is entitled to all the privileges I have. He ought to be recognised as equally sharing all the things we are going on with. I have fellowship with him, and fellowship is fellowship.

J.T. Yes, it is. "We being many are one bread, one body". 1 Corinthians 10:17. You have unity, and if you have unity, you have blessing.

J.P. All think the same thing, and all speak the same thing. That is the standard.

J.T. That is the company God takes pleasure in.

Ques. Would you not get unity by recognising Christ as Head? And so when you find a company of saints where there is not unity, it must be that Christ is not recognised as Head.

J.T. The Lord says, "This is my body given". Luke 22:19. He has given His body -- died for me. The thought of this being brought home afresh to your soul subdues and attracts you. It is in this way Christ enters in as Head in the supper. If our hearts are not callous, His love is irresistible.

J.P. Someone has said, "The idea of headship is pre-eminence in love". It is in Christ's death, His body given, that pre-eminence in love is expressed.

J.T. So it is in the idea of a husband; he directs in affection, not arbitrarily.

J.P. We think the woman is pre-eminent in love, but in Scripture the man is.

Rem. I suppose if the headship of Christ were generally recognised, all Christians would be together.

J.T. Yes; you would not have sectarianism if the headship of Christ were acknowledged.

Rem. We can only hold the Head in the activity of divine affections.

W.J.N. I suppose, speaking in a general way, in

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Luke, Christ is presented as One who rules the heart of man by His love.

J.T. The manner in which the supper is presented in Luke is very touching. Speaking of the passover the Lord says "With desire it have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer". Luke 22:15. He was thinking of them.

J.P. Then He says, "This is my body given for you". Luke 22:19.

Ques. If you should come in contact with a company of saints where there was not perfect unity, what would you present to them?

J.T. I should present Christ, and I should expect that they would unite on Him . The effect of His presence and ministry down here was to bring men together in unity, as is seen in the opening of Acts 2. In the future Israel and Judah will become "one stick", Ezekiel 37:19, under Christ. Christ will unite them and hold them together in the power of His love. The ten tribes will never again revolt from the house of David. I think it is a wonderful thing for the saints to unite on Christ. There is no other way of unity. That is largely what the apostle has before him in 1 Corinthians 11. There had been divisions: he says, "When ye come together into one place it is not to eat the Lord's supper" 1 Corinthians 11:20. The rich were eating and the poor were hungry. Then he brings the Lord's supper before them: "For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you. That the Lord Jesus, the same night in which he was betrayed, took bread", etc. 1 Corinthians 11:23. It is the Head he is bringing before them, to the end that fleshly distinctions should disappear, and that they should be together in love.

G.W.H. You get the unity in chapter 12.

J.T. Yes, the members were to have the same care for one another.

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J.B. What bound all together was love, and without that there is nothing.

J.T. If a member is suffering you would endeavour to help him, and you would not make much of anything that discredits him.

J.P. In connection with what you have just said, 2 Corinthians 3 is interesting. Whilst the new covenant is the disposition of God, I think that one point there is how it is made effectual in us. I mean it is Christ written on the fleshy tables of the heart. The heart is fleshy, soft, and impressionable, and the Spirit has written Christ there, and in that way Christ is commanding the affections of the heart, and we become His epistle.

J.T. The way the apostle alludes to himself in that chapter gives you the idea of how Christ is transcribed in the human heart. He says, "Ye are our letter, written in our hearts, known and read of all men". 2 Corinthians 3:2. What he was alluding to was the place the Corinthians had in his affections, and everywhere he went that was his letter, if he needed one, and it was "read" by the way he spoke of the Corinthians; and they were the proof of the power of his ministry.

J.P. The evidence of his great affection for the Corinthians was his letter of commendation. If a man speaks well of the saints it is a good commendation, but if one is speaking badly of them he does not deserve much consideration; he has no letter in his heart at all.

J.T. The man that cannot speak well of the saints is not commendable That was the letter the apostle Paul carried with him. Whatever the Corinthians said of him, he loved them and spoke well of them.

J.P. He says, "I will very gladly spend and be spent for you, though the more abundantly I love you the less I be loved". 2 Corinthians 12:15. That is the kind of an epistle that is desirable.

Ques. And is it not in that way the Lord acts

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when He speaks about the seven churches? He gives every one of them credit for all He can.

J.T. Yes.

W.J.N. Why does the apostle not go beyond the work that purges the conscience in Hebrews?

J.T. In Hebrews it is the wilderness position, and things are presented in connection with the tabernacle. God was to be approached, and the way into the holiest was now made manifest. This necessarily involved a purged conscience. It is not our relationship with the Father and the Son: that is more Canaan, and involves new creation.

J.P. They were in danger of giving up, and it was a question of bringing in the light as to the superiority of the Christian position to what had gone before. The saints are viewed as in the wilderness, yet in relation to the testimony.

Ques. Would you say when you pass into the holiest you pass out of the wilderness?

J.T. In a sense you do, still there was no flooring in the tabernacle, It was still the wilderness as far as their feet were concerned.

W.H.F. The tabernacle indicates movement.

W.C.R. As you said yesterday, the holiest is a question of individual apprehension.

J.T. Yes.

R.S.S. Would you explain what you mean by its being a question of apprehension?

J.T. I think the point in the holiest is that it presents that by which God will bring to pass the moral universe -- the ark of the covenant, the mercy seat, etc. I do not exclude the thought of love from entering into the holiest, for it is only as divine affections are in activity that one could appreciate it, for no one would care to enter on God's side of things unless he loved God, but at the same time affection is not so much the point as apprehension.

Ques. Who went into the holiest in the tabernacle?

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J.T. Only the high priest.

Ques. What for?

J.T. Look at chapter 9: 6: "Now, these things being thus ordained, into the first tabernacle the priests enter at all times, accomplishing the services but into the second, the high priest only, once a year, not without blood, which he offers for himself and for the errors of the people; the Holy Ghost showing this, that the way of the holy of holies has not yet been made manifest, while as yet the first tabernacle has its standing". Hebrews 9:6. The contrast to this is found in chapter 10: 19: "Having therefore, brethren, boldness for entering into the holy of holies by the blood of Jesus". Hebrews 10:19. The way in is opened up by the One who expressed the heart of God.

R.S.S. We must always remember what it contained: the golden censer, the ark, the golden pot, the rod of Aaron, the tables of the covenant, and the cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy-seat.

J.T. The apostle does not say, "Let us enter the holiest". He says, "We have boldness to enter". Hebrews 10:19. Having that boldness, we may draw near to God. He immediately passes on to the thought of the great Priest over the house of God, and then says, "Let us approach with a true heart". Hebrews 10:22. That was really what he had before him.

R.S.S. What difference is there between "drawing near" and "entering"?

J.T. The privilege of entering the holiest is opened up to Christians, but you might say the holiest is not exactly the objective --properly God is the objective. You draw near to God. What I mean to convey is, that whilst it is your privilege to contemplate what God has set forth in Christ, the point in drawing near is to draw near to God.

Ques. Would you say God is presented in the various things found in the holiest?

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J.T. They typify what is seen in Christ as Man. God dwelt between the cherubim.

J.P. What I think we should see is that there were two thoughts in regard to the holiest. First, it presents what Christ is as the One by whom God brings to pass the moral universe; but then also, God dwelt between the cherubim: God was there Himself, so in drawing near you draw near to God.

W.J.N. Would you say in the holiest you get the contrast to the present state of things?

J.T. You learn there how God brings to pass His own Universe.

G.W.H. Is the thought here that you are qualified to hold fast the confession because of what you see inside?

J.T. I think so. We have boldness to enter; we have a new arid living way, and we have a great Priest over the house of God. Everything is provided for us, then let us draw near. You come out wonderful men, imbued with what God is going to accomplish, and how He accomplishes it.

J.B. When Asaph was troubled about certain things, what relieved him was going into the sanctuary of God.

Ques. What does it mean by the veil being rent?

J.T. It was rent from top to bottom. God would be no longer concealed behind a veil. He would come out fully in revelation. In Hebrews, however, the point is our going in.

J.P. The rending of the veil is more properly connected with chapter 8 -- the new covenant.

Rem. The veil is not rent here.

J.P. You go through the veil.

J.T. The veil is completely rent from God's side, but from our side, entering the holiest depends upon state.

Rem. The veil is said here to be "his flesh".

J.T. Yes. He has opened for us a new and living

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way. To enter on the "living way" necessitates the work of God in us, and our acceptance of the death of Christ.

W.H.F. Our entrance into the holiest is proved by our being acquainted with the mind of God.

J.P. If we get divine light and intelligence they will regulate us.

Ques. Is worship connected with the holiest?

J.T. It is hard to say it is not, because you draw near to God, but what comes in in regard to worship is the worshipping company. God has the tent of the testimony, and you move on in relation to that. The point for every man in Israel was to stand in relation to the tent of testimony.

Rem. I like what you said about the company being worshippers; worship is not individual.

J.T. I think that is right. Worship is properly "The Father seeketh such as his worshippers". John 4:23. "True worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth". John 4:23.

J.P. The Lord leads the praises of the assembly.

J.T. He does not lead an individual, but the company.

J.B. There can be nothing so blessed as to be in the presence of God.

J.T. No, I am sure of that, and to be there intelligently.

J.B. In Mary sitting at the Lord's feet -- would you not say she found the holy place?

J.T. I believe she did. I think the Lord is the holiest.

G.W.H. Do you see intelligence in Mary in John 12?

J.T. Yes.

R.S.S. Can you get love apart from intelligence?

J.T. I think so, but it ought to be connected with intelligence.

JR. Mary of Magdala had very little intelligence

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really as to resurrection, but she had intense love for the Person of Christ,

J.T. Intelligence would not have led her to the sepulchre, but her love led her to the place where they had laid Him.

J.P. What I see in Scripture is that when there is the activity of love, you will find intelligence consequent upon it.

J.T. You will; properly love precedes intelligence.

J.P. I have thought Mary of Bethany was a wonderful illustration of that, when she sat at the Lord's feet, hearing His word, by the way she comes out at the close: she anoints the Lord for His burial. I think that scene is an indication of the great gain she had received in connection with being at His feet and hearing His word. She really was the only person on earth equal to such an act.

J.B. The Lord manifests Himself to those that love him.

Ques. Is the holiest more a question of knowledge, and worship consequent upon that?

J.T. I think the holiest is strictly a question of knowledge or apprehension. It is apprehension of Christ, the One by whom God brings into existence His moral universe. What a wonderful thing it is!

J.P. When the heavenly city comes down from God out of heaven, no one can tell how it is sustained -- it is only as you enter the holiest, and really come to the moral, spiritual apprehension of things, that you can understand how it will all be brought about and maintained.

J.T. Hence it is that Christ is said to be the wisdom of God, that by which things are devised and brought to pass; also the power of God, that by which things are upheld.

J.P. He upholds all things "by the word of his power" Hebrews 1:3.

Ques. Would you say power is given us to free us

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from things down here, so that God can draw us to Him?

J.T. Yes, and you can understand the force of the apostle bringing Christ in as the wisdom and power of God in writing to the Corinthians, for the reason that the Greeks were so pretentious in asserting that they could understand the working of things by their wisdom, whereas it was foolishness. His desire was that they might apprehend Christ, as the wisdom and power of God.

Ques. Would you say that simple souls are led astray by lack of apprehension?

J.T. There are various ways of being led astray. I know people at the present time who are suffering from being led away through lust -- desire to get on in the world. A man may be very unworldly arid upright in his walk and yet be under baneful influence through the activity of his mind.

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READING ON THE EPISTLE TO THE HEBREWS

Hebrews 12.

J.P. I suppose the race refers to the course of faith through this scene, and the point is endurance, and having the eye fixed on the goal.

J.T. Yes. The subject begins really in verse 35 of chapter 10. "Cast not away therefore your confidence, which has great recompense. For ye have need of endurance in order that, having done the will of God, ye may receive the promise. For yet a very little while he that comes will come, and will not delay. But the just shall live by faith and, if he draw back, my soul does not take pleasure in him. But we are not drawers back to perdition, but of faith to saving the soul", Hebrews 10:35 - 39.

Ques Is the race individual or collective?

J.T. I think it is the ground you take individually. What is really before the mind of the writer is the position of a Christian here in relation to what God proposes to establish in Christ publicly. That is the goal before your soul.

The dates given in the book of Daniel are very interesting. Chapter 12 contemplates the last days, and the question is asked, "How long?" The answer is, "A time, times and an half". Daniel 12:6,7. That is from the divine side, as it would seem, it is very brief. Then Daniel himself inquires "What shall be the end of these things?" He is told that from a certain time it should be "A thousand two hundred and ninety days". Daniel 12:8, 11. This is apparently from the side of human experience, and from this point of view it is a protracted period. The whole period has to be traversed -- one day after another -- on the principle of faith, and for this endurance is required. Then we have "Blessed is he that waiteth and cometh to the thousand, three hundred and five and thirty days". Daniel 12:12.

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The blessing lies in waiting and coming to the utmost limit of time divinely appointed. Full, eternal and unalloyed blessings lie at the end of the path of faith.

Ques The reason I asked the question is because the Spirit uses the word "us". I had thought it might refer to a company running the race together.

J.T. But I think it is properly individual. The subject is opened up, as I said, in the verses I read from chapter 10, and these verses are a quotation from the prophet Habakkuk. In the prophet it reads, "though it tarry wait for it because it will surely come, and will not tarry". Habakkuk 2:3. The latter part only is quoted in Hebrews because it was a question of encouraging them to hold out. From the divine side it is "he that shall come will come, and will not tarry". From our side it may appear that he is tarrying, but "the just shall live by faith;" hence it is "blessed is he that waiteth and cometh to the thousand, three hundred, and five and thirty days". From our side it is a long, protracted period of time (for we have to do the will of God), and hence the need for endurance.

J.P. So the race has to be taken up day by day?

J.T. Yes. It is not making a spasmodic effort and then relaxing. The idea is one thousand three hundred and five and thirty days, one after another. You wait and exercise faith every day.

J.P. God is not asking you to live on nothing.

J.T. The just shall live by his faith.

Ques. Would you say one could not take up the path of faith apart from the light of the world to come?

J.T. God has brought in the world to come, which indeed is already established from the divine side; the believer is in the light of it, and lives by this. It is not only that you hear about things; faith is more than that. It is "the substantiating of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen". Hebrews 11:1.

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J.P. It seems to me it would be very difficult to live by report simply.

J.T. Faith is more than that; faith is by a report.

Ques. Would you say we have the substance now?

J.T. Yes: faith is greater than hope in that it substantiates to you now things that are still literally in the future; hence we live by faith.

Ques. Is hope in connection with joy?

J.T. We rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

J.P. If we hope for that we see not, we wait for it.

J.T. With patience. That is where blessing lies. The man who endures day by day, and comes to the end.

Ques. Why is it that so many Christians appear to start very brightly and then give up?

J.T. The exhortation here is to prevent that: "Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompense of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise". Hebrews 10:35,36.

W.J.N. Abraham appropriated that which had been revealed to him by God.

J.T. Although Old Testament saints embraced the promises, their position in relation to them differed materially from ours. They saw them afar off, but now that they have taken form in Christ, in whom all is yea, and all amen, Christians can be said to have come to them. Things are no longer in counsel, or purpose, simply: in Christ everything has taken form and subsists livingly. There is an immense difference between knowing a Man (the Son of God), actually in heaven as having accomplished redemption, and simply waiting for Him on the ground of promise. We know that the Son of God has come.

J.B. We are in the present blessedness of what He is.

J.T. And that is what we live by.

W.H.F. Caleb and Joshua are great examples of

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faith. What often hinders people is fear of the giants.

J.T. The report brought back by the ten spies indicates that. It was unbelief.

Ques Is the objective point in Hebrews the rest?

J.T. The rest lies at the end of the course, but entrance into the holiest is present privilege. The rest is introduced in chapters 3 and 4 in connection with unbelief: they are warned against a wicked heart of unbelief, which would prevent entrance into God's rest, but here the exhortation is to patient perseverance in the race. The Old Testament saints had to die without receiving the promise, and they were aware of this; the Christian looks for the change of his body, and the glory at the coining of the Lord. He does not expect death.

J.P. What should be before us is: "For yet a very little while and he that shall come will come and will not tarry". Hebrews 10:37. That is not death.

Ques. Is this anything like entering into our inheritance?

J.T. I think the point here is that you are to come to the utmost limit of time, and that means the blessing. The blessing lies at the farthest limit of time, and faith is to be in exercise until then. "Blessed is he that waiteth and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days", Daniel 12:12.

Rem. There is great encouragement in "Looking stedfastly on Jesus". Hebrews 12:2.

J.T. I think it is a great thing to get prominently before us that to which we are running.

Ques Do you not think the weights will drop off then?

J.T. Directly you have your eye upon the goal and that becomes an object to you, you feel the weights, and they are laid aside.

Ques. What marks one who has faith?

J.T. I think the man who stands out prominently as especially witnessing to faith is the one in whom

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you get the main features of it. That is Abraham. He looked for a city, and he rejoiced to see Christ's day.

J.B. We "rejoice in hope of the glory of God", (Romans 5:2) when everything will be in display, and God will have His rightful place.

R.S.S. Wherein would that differ from Philippians 3, where Paul speaks of "looking towards the goal for the prize of the calling on high of God in Christ Jesus"? Philippians 3:14.

J.T. I suppose what the apostle had before him there was the distinct calling of Christians in relation to Christ on high; this is before us in the race, but Hebrews involves also the hopes of the Jewish remnant in the latter days. It will be a great encouragement to them that the coming of the Lord will be imminent; hence they are not to cast away their confidence, but endure to the end. But Philippians could not refer to such, for Israel will not consider their citizenship in heaven, whereas the Christian does.

W.J.N. Does chastening come in here in the way of help?

J.T. It does. I think it would be a great thing for believers to make up their minds for the journey. The journey of faith may be long and protracted, but in it you prove that good and acceptable and perfect will of God; and then you have something to live by every day.

Ques. How do you bring in the coining of the Lord in connection with it?

J.T. The coming of the Lord is the goal. "He that shall come will come and will not tarry". "Though it tarry wait for it". Habakkuk 2:3.

Ques. Would you say that His coming is included in His being the Finisher of faith?

J.T. He has already finished the path of faith, as it goes on to say, "who, for the joy that was set

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before him, endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. For consider him that endured such contradiction sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds". Hebrews 12:3.

J.P. You see the whole course set forth in Him, but as far as He personally is concerned all is ended, because if that were not so, how could He be viewed as the Leader and Completer of faith?

J.T. The path of faith is really the path of life, as we learn from Psalm 16. That is, we live day by day. It is the path of life, although at the same time the path of suffering and sorrow.

J.P. You do not die on the road.

J.B. Neither do you grow old.

J.T. That is it: you do not grow old in the wilderness. When Caleb came to Hebron he was as strong, hearty and vigorous as he had been forty-five years previously, when Moses sent him out with the other eleven to spy out the land. There was no waning and growing old in the wilderness. "The just shall live by faith". Hebrews 10:38.

J.P. It is clear as to two men (Caleb and Joshua) and a good many others.

J.T. Take Moses: his eye was not dim, nor natural force abated at one hundred and twenty. That shows that he had been sustained by a vital principle -- faith. "We also boast in tribulations, knowing that tribulation works endurance; and endurance, experience; and experience, hope; and hope does not make ashamed, because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which has been given to us". Romans 5:3 - 5. That is the position of the believer. He is living. It is the path of life, and for every day. You do not grow weary of the days. A man rejoicing in tribulations, and with the love God shed abroad in his heart, is not complaining that the days are too many.

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J.P. The inward man is renewed day by day.

J.B. I think a good many saints confuse the coming of the Lord as presented here in Hebrews with the coming of the Lord in the air according to 1 Thessalonians. It is not the same.

J.T. No, it is not the same. Here it is the coming of the Lord in a manifest way. The apostle says "Our light affliction which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory". 2 Corinthians 4:17. Like Jacob waiting for Rachel; the time seemed but a moment for the love he bore her.

J.B. If I were a hundred my spirit ought to be as young as though I were twenty.

J.T. That is very good. I do not understand a Christian becoming superannuated. Paul was not, nor Moses.

Rem. Another thing we get in the pathway is the blessed experience of what the Lord can be to us in the trials we encounter.

J.T. The very things most repugnant to man naturally become food to the believer -- tribulations.

J.B. I remember a brother saying once, "Faith thrives on difficulties".

J.T. That is what Christianity involves. Whatever our circumstances, we live day after day in the enjoyment of the light of God in our souls. The unseen system of things is made good to you in your everyday life. It comes out in a man's appearance. If he lives in this way he has a wonderful expression on his countenance always, and then too he is vigorous. His natural force is not abated: like Caleb, at the age of eighty-five he is able to contend with giants. We do not want youthfulness and vigour alone, but eyesight also. It is most important that a man should see, so as to take in the purposes of God. What wonderful eyesight Moses must have had when from the top of Pisgah he could view all the extent of the inheritance as shown him by God!

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W.C.R. We see many Christians like Samson: they lose their strength because they give up their Nazariteship.

J.T. Look at Lot. The vale of Sodom was to him like the garden of the Lord -- an optical delusion. How many Christians are like that! It is simply poor eyesight. How different with Abraham! He saw Messiah's day. What power of vision he had!

Ques. Would you say we must be prepared in heart to leave our country, kindred, and father's house, to endure to the end?

J.T. I think it is the light of God's system that enables you to do that. You must add as to Abraham that he was directed to go into the land of Canaan and into the land of Canaan he came.

J.P. The way it is put is simple. It was by faith Abraham did this and that. All we need really is faith in this point of view.

J.B. An overseer of God's people should not have an obscure vision -- it should be clear.

J.T. The eyesight of all should be clear. Every man in Israel was supposed to look at the tent of testimony; and a blind man could not see it. You require to have eyesight to see the tent of testimony when it moves. The point here, however, is not that you may find your way, but that you may not grow weary in the race. You may know the way and yet not run the race with patience.

J.P. And in order that you may endure to the end you first dispose of every weight, and the sin which does so easily beset or entangle us; and the next thing, "looking stedfastly on Jesus, the leader and completer of faith". Hebrews 12:2.

J.B. By faith we begin the path and end it.

J.P. But a man of faith does not know any fear at all. If people do not want to go on with you, you can go on yourself.

J.B. And live all the time.

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J.T. That is the point -- you can live the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days, so to say, yourself. You are not dependent on any man. You can live by faith and the Lord will not forsake you. We see the end clearly before us. It is a great deal better to have people go on with you of course, and I do not suppose any of us shall have to go on alone, but at the same time that is the ground to take.

J.P. Yes faith is not vanquished by isolation.

W.S.N. There are two things looked at here as hindrances; they are weights and sin.

J.P. It is not "the sin" as our authorised version puts it, but sin as such.

W.J.N. If you saw a brother whom you thought was being hindered by a weight, how would you seek to help him?

J.P. Unless a person was really in the light of all that is set before us, and set to run the race, you could hardly touch him on the question of weights. They would not be such to him because he is not set for the race. He is not in the light of the world to come. He is living in this present world, I mean a Christian bent on being prosperous and bettering his circumstances here.

J.T. He is a very poor appraiser. He does not put the proper value on things. He does not, as the apostle says in Philippians 3, count whatever might be gain as loss for Christ.

W.J.N. So when his eyes are opened to these things he commences to feel these weights, and is exercised to get rid of them.

J.B. I have known a great many brethren who have got on considerably in this world, but very few have made progress in the race.

J.T. It would be an immense thing if the Lord would give us some little help as to what is at the end, so that we should be marked off as people who are leaving this world and bound for another. I am sure

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every man of faith is delighted and supported too, by the company of others who have faith, but at the same time he lives by his own faith.

J.P. It is a wonderful thing to see the people of God moving onward out of this world. That is what God takes pleasure in. A most remarkable example is set before us here in the second exhortation: "Consider well him who endured so great contradiction from sinners against himself" Hebrews 12:3. How that ought to come home to every one of our hearts! It is not Abraham now: no, nor Enoch, nor any such. It is Himself!

Rem. I suppose the power of onward movement lies in the Spirit.

J.T. The faith of Christians is in the Spirit.

J.B. The Lord looked forward to the joy that was set before Him.

J.T. "Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy: at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore", Psalm 16:11. The path of life was opened right up to the glory.

R.S.S. What would you say was the joy referred to there?

J.T. I suppose the deepest joy to Christ would be the returning as Man, as having accomplished the Father's will.

J.P. I like the way Mr. Darby puts it: "Who, in view of the joy lying before him". Hebrews 12:2. There it was. What marked His path here was not joy: it was sorrow (although the deep joy of uninterrupted communion with the Father was ever there), but there was lying before Him that wonderful and eternal scene, all characterised by joy. The whole relationship was lit up, as it were, with the joy lying before Him.

R.S.S. And I suppose we have the same stimulus?

J.T. "The path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day". Proverbs 4:18.

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R.S.S. Is discipline for our help?

J.T. It tends to clear our vision so that we might be taken up with the system of unseen things, hence they are enumerated in the chapter. It is to the end that we might be helped on the road. Through it we become partakers of God's holiness.

J.P. I suppose it might be connected with "blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God". Matthew 5:8. If made partakers of His holiness one great gain is you see better; you have a wonderful vision.

J.T. It says, "follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord". Hebrews 12:14.

Ques. In what way would you say we have come to mount Zion, the city, etc.?

J.T. We have come to them in the faith of our souls, as existing from the divine side. They represent the unseen, but living and abiding system of things which is before God, and into connection with which believers are already brought. I think we can understand that mount Zion must stand first in the order, because everything depends on what mount Zion represents -- the sovereign mercy of God. When everything was lost in Israel on the side of the people's responsibility God intervened in sovereign mercy, in David, who brought the ark into Zion. It is Christ risen, in whom all is recovered and established for God.

J.P. Then we get that wonderful refrain: "his mercy endureth forever".

J.T. David gives expression to the psalm directly the ark is set in Zion. He is "the sweet psalmist of Israel". It is really Christ who is the sweet Psalmist of Israel. He composes the psalm and then becomes the Leader in singing it, comp. Psalm 22:22.

Ques. Did you say everything depended on mount Zion?

J.T. Yes; everything depended on God intervening in His sovereign right of mercy. He intervenes

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in Christ, and in him recovers everything for Himself and for man. Consequent on this, singing becomes prominent: a choir is instituted by David, and a psalm composed. The record of the establishment of the ark in Zion is a wonderful section of Scripture.

J.B. David gave to every one a cake of bread, a piece of flesh, and a flagon of wine; and the passage ends with David returning to bless his house. It is exceedingly interesting.

J.T. The most interesting part to me is the delivering of the psalm to Asaph and his brethren. They are the singers, but David composes the song to be sung. The fact is that the Lord Jesus Christ has brought the singers into existence, and has given them their song to sing. All this is in resurrection.

Ques So then you would say that each thing here is presented in the order in which it is revealed?

J.T. I think each thing mentioned is spoken of in its own relation to the divine system: mount Zion; the city of the living God; myriads of angels; the assembly of the first-born; God the Judge of all; the spirits of just men made perfect; Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant; and the blood of sprinkling. These are the things believers have now come to, in contrast to what Israel came to in the desert of Arabia. They form the subject of God's testimony rendered from heaven; hence the exhortation not to refuse Him that speaks from heaven. They give character to the speaking of God at the present time, and it makes it exceedingly solemn to turn away from this wonderful testimony.

R.S.S. What is the relation of the last chapter to this epistle?

J.T. I suppose it is the external appearance of the believer. Chapter 12 gives you an idea of what a Christian is occupied with in his soul; what he is looking at with the eyes of his heart; and chapter 13 would show how he conducts himself before men.

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J.P. In chapter 13 we get: "I will never leave thee nor forsake thee, so that we may boldly say, the Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shalt do unto me". Hebrews 13:5,6.

J.T. You are defended in the presence of men down here.

J.P. It should read: "Satisfied with your present circumstances". Hebrews 13:5. I think that practically that is a great point but the real secret of it is that in your soul you have the things hoped for substantiated by faith: and then we prove too that the Lord is our Helper.

R.S.S. I do not think God would expect us to be satisfied with our present circumstances if it were not for what is in new.

J.T. Another thing comes out: you are outside the camp: "Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach". Hebrews 13:13.

G.W.H. What is the thought in: "Remember your leaders who have spoken to you the word of God"? Hebrews 13:7.

J.T. Remember those by whom the word of God has come to you. First of all, you have those who had spoken. They had passed off the scene: later on, verse 17, there are those who "watch over your souls as those that shall give account". Hebrews 13:17.

J.P. The former you remember.

J.T. Mr. Darby, for instance, in our own time. Often you get a lot of radicalism manifested; it is said that everybody is alike, and those to whom God has given ability to watch over His people are disregarded. It is of great importance that you recognise those to whom the Lord has given ability to take care of you. "Obey" them, it says. It is a great thing to recognise what God has given to others as well as what He has given to you. The Lord knows better than we how to place each one of us, and if He has given to some desire and ability to watch over and

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care for the souls of His people, they ought to be recognised.

J.P. It is a wonderful finish here.

R.S.S. I would like to read the last verses: "But the God of peace, who brought again from among the dead our Lord Jesus, the great Shepherd of the sheep, in the power of the blood of the eternal covenant, perfect you in every good work to the doing of his will, doing in you what is pleasing before him through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory for the ages of ages. Amen. But I beseech you, brethren, bear the word of exhortation, for it is but in few words that I have written to you". Hebrews 13:20 - 22.

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THE CITY OF THE LIVING GOD

Genesis 13:9 - 13; Genesis 19:15 - 22; Hebrews 11:8 - 10, 16.

You can readily perceive what I have in mind; it is to speak about the heavenly city: the city of the living God. In speaking of such a subject I hope you will understand that I do not mean to speak of it as apart from Christ, for I never would think of speaking of any subject except as related to Him. Christ brings the city into existence, and it takes all its character from Him. If there is one thing more than another that speaks of the greatness and ability of Christ, it is the construction of this marvellous city, that is to become the centre of light and blessing for the universe of God.

The heavenly city is a wonderful product of the quickening power of Christ, hence in speaking of it I only wish that our minds and hearts should be occupied all the more with Him, for, as I said, it is the evidence of His greatness. You will recall how Nebuchadnezzar exulted in the magnificence of his city. "Is not this great Babylon that I have built for the house of the kingdom, by the might of my power and for the honour of my majesty?" Daniel 4:30. Nebuchadnezzar was an absolute monarch, and he speaks of the city which he had built as the evidence of his power. He is figurative of Christ, to whom universal dominion belongs; the city He constructs will be in accord with Himself in every way, and with His kingdom; and it will also be the great witness to His quickening power, so that in referring to the city, what I have in my soul is the greatness of the Lord Jesus Christ. If He has formed that marvellous city, said to come down from God out of heaven in all heavenly splendour "having the glory of God", (Revelation 21:10) what a Person He must be! "Whose builder and maker is God". Hebrews 11:10. Christ is the Builder and Maker; He

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who builds all things is God, but it is Christ as Hebrews 3 clearly states, and this is true of the church at the present moment. The church as formed at the beginning by His own hand, to be in this world in such wise as to be absolutely free from its influence and power, and thus to be capable of illuminating man and bringing blessing to him, was an irrefutable witness to the power of the Son of God. We want to get into our souls a clear understanding of the ability of the Lord Jesus Christ; and His ability is at the command of His love, hence He has brought in that which involves blessing for man. It is from that point of view I wish to dwell upon the city that the Lord Jesus Christ has formed -- a city for us. God has prepared things for them that love Him, and it seems to me that the city is pre-eminently what is prepared "he hath prepared for them a city" Hebrews 11:16.

It is a great thing to understand that we have a city. It may be you do not attach importance to that, but every man of faith had a city before him. Abraham is the great model of faith in Scripture, and he looked for a city, and I think that what you get in him was what marked them all. Why did he look for a city? I believe that everybody in the world is dependent upon a city, and I think if you took away the cities you would find that most men had lost that which they require as their centre. It does not necessarily follow that you must live in a city to have one. Men as they are in the flesh are not self-supporting. In Genesis 4 you get the first mention of a city, and my belief is that the builder of that city felt that he was not. I refer to Cain, I think he felt, as banished from God, that he could not he self-supporting. He built a city, and called it after the name of his son. I think Cain's city may be taken to represent the cities of this world. It was built by a murderer, and would of necessity bear the marks of its founder. The world-city of Revelation 11 bears Cain's character; our

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Lord was crucified there. It is spiritually called "Sodom and Egypt". Revelation 11:8. Violence and corruption mark the cities of the world, and of course none of them is free. Do you think a murderer could build a free city? No murderer could be a free man. He is only free while he can elude the punishment of the law; hence Cain could not build a free city. He did not call his city by his own name, and I can understand that; I think he felt he did not have a very good one: he was a murderer. It is very intelligible that he should call his city after the name of his son, but his son was no more free than himself. His son could not liberate Cain's city, and I will tell you why -- he was under death. The fact is that Cain, his son, and their city were under the sentence of death, and freedom cannot be had in such a state.

I was saying that the cities of the world bear the stamp of Cain, and this is true. I think if you were to go into Cain's city you would find a very peculiar state of things morally. I should not consider myself very safe in a city built by a murderer. If true to the testimony of God, I should not expect very much better treatment from that city than Abel received from Cain. I think that Rome may be taken as representative of man's city, it is so viewed in Scripture. Its perpetual history has been one of murder and lawlessness. "I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus", Revelation 17:6.

Now what I want to come to is what marks the city of the living God. It is free. You could not have a free city except on the principle of resurrection. Those who compose the city are quickened together with Christ, and are seated in the heavenly places in Him. It is living, and in the heavenlies. Revelation 21 depicts its varied characteristics. It will be the sphere of highest privilege in the future. "Blessed are they that wash their robes that they may have right to

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the tree of life, and that they should go in by the gates into the city". Revelation 22:14. The tree of life is there; it is in the midst of the paradise of God. The Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are in the city. We shall be at home there, and there will be perfect security. In contrast to Cain's city, which, as we have seen, was built by a murderer, this city is built by the righteous One -- the One who hated lawlessness.

I wish to turn to Lot for a moment to explain my point that everybody is dependent upon a city. The gospel is that which produces the desire to take the path of faith. If the light of the gospel comes into your soul, it leads you to refuse and turn away from the present world, and if it has not done that for you, you have not rightly received it. The gospel is the light of another and completely new system, with a new centre entirely (Christ), a new city, and directly the light of that enters your soul, your course is altered. Now Lot had taken up that position. He was really one of the Lord's people. We are not told that he was called to forsake his country, and kindred, and his father's house, hut he did it, and he did what was perfectly right. He took the path of faith; he went into the land of Canaan; he took up the heavenly position in company with Abraham. He did what was perfectly right, as I said, and it is what every man ought to do. He took up the ground of faith. Now faith is simply this: the gospel brings to you the light of another system, of which Christ is the Head; another city, and another country; and the effect of this when received is that you make a move; you give up every single thing morally that you are connected with down here as in the flesh, whether the social, commercial, or religious phases of the world-system, and you plant your foot on the path of faith, shape your course toward the city of the living God. I hope everybody here has taken up that position: I would advise you to take it up. Do not tell me you

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were converted on a certain day, and so on; if you have not taken up the path of faith, the gospel has not had its proper effect upon you. The effect of the gospel is to turn you entirely from this present evil course of things. I want to see the man who has forsaken his country, his kindred, and his father's house. Something has taken place with the man who has done that. The gospel has been received into his soul.

But, alas, the light thus received often grows dim to us: something comes in between your heart and Christ. It may be you have accumulated a little bit of wealth, or it may be that something else has intervened between the vision of your soul and the divine system. What is the next thing that fellows upon that? You will gravitate toward some worldly system or city. The world becomes very pleasing and attractive. Look at the light in which Lot viewed the plain of Sodom. It says: "Lot lifted up his eyes and beheld all the plain of Jordan that it was well watered everywhere". It was "as the garden of the Lord, like the land of Egypt as thou comest unto Zoar", Genesis 13:10. Nothing to my mind more aptly evidences the demoralising influence of this world upon the soul of man than this. The paradise of God, which is the true garden of the Lord, is confused with the land of Egypt! It is an optical delusion. Alas! how dreadful to think of a Christian allowing the things of this world to dim his vision! Oh, Christian, do you ever take account of the world as the garden of the Lord? Do not do it, whatever you do. If you want to go in for the things of the world, do not degrade the garden of the Lord, which is in the paradise of God, and where the tree of life is, by likening it to a wicked place. It says that Sodom was wicked above all cities. Lot went into the plain of Jordan. It does not say that he got into Sodom all at once. I suppose he went into some of the smaller cities, and became a private citizen, simply a resident, but he pitched his tent toward Sodom. That

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was his objective. But Abraham had a different objective, he looked for a city. The Spirit of God records that that wonderful man sojourned as a stranger in the land of promise, and that he looked for a city "whose builder and maker is God". Hebrews 11:10. That was his objective. He died without receiving the promise, but he looked for it. Lot says, as it were, "I must have a city now". How many a Christian is like that! They give up the path of faith. If you do that and thus lose sight of the heavenly city, you cannot get on without a city of this world -- something visible, which becomes your centre. Lot lifted up his natural eyes, and Sodom came within the range of his vision; but Abraham saw with the eyes of his heart, and with these he did not see Sodom, but the city of the living God.

But Sodom is to be destroyed, and it is when the time of the execution of the divine sentence against the city arrives we see demonstrated how intensely possessed Lot was with the idea of a city, and how much he depended on one. The angel says, "Escape to the mountain". Genesis 19:17. Lot replies: "Behold, now, this city is near to flee unto, and it is a little one: oh, let me escape thither (is it not a little one?) and my soul shall live" Genesis 19:20. He depended upon a city, no matter how small, so he fled to Zoar. He says, "My soul shall live"; but Abraham's soul had lived without a present city! He did not have a visible city great or small, neither did he possess a house, nor any outward support, and yet he was perfectly secure; he did not suffer any discomfort at all when the cities of the plain were destroyed.

I do not know that I can say much about Abraham, but he stands out in wonderful contrast to Lot, who is a figure of the worldly Christian. See him in Genesis 18. That chapter presents Abraham in the full position which the light that had come to him involved: he is outside of the whole course of the world, and is

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in the circumstances of a pilgrim -- sitting in the tent-door. Such a man is fit morally to receive a divine visitation, and he does receive it. If you are connected with any kind of a city, even though it be only a small one, you will have no divine visitation; but if you live in a tent, if you take up the path of a man of faith, I can assure you you will get one. As apart from the world in the position of a pilgrim, it is your privilege to receive a gratuitous heavenly visitation. Do you not desire it? Abraham and Sarah were there alone in their tent and the Lord came without being invited. Look at the marvellous moral beauty of Jehovah coming down to a tent! No stylish abode, only the tent of a herdman, and Jehovah comes and partakes of a repast with Abraham and his wife. They were in the path of faith. They "looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God". Hebrews 11:10. I think they had what I should call an understanding of what is morally right. They say, as it were, if we cannot have that city we will not have any, but a visit from Jehovah, although in a tent, is infinitely more to be desired than the society of the world, and a fine mansion in the city of Sodom. The Lord, in John 14, speaks of the Father and Himself coming, and making their abode with the one who loved Jesus, and so kept His word. Wonderful privilege! The believer can well afford to stand alone, if necessary, for the truth -- the Father and the Son will visit him. But there is not only this blessed divine visitation: God also prepares for us a city. We are not exactly in the position of Abraham. The city has already been brought in, in a sense, so that in a certain way we can enter into the city now. Blessedness in the future will lie in the privilege, as having washed our robes, to have right to the tree of life, and to go in by the gates into the city. We await by faith the actuality, but already in the power of the Spirit we may realise something of the blessedness of the city. Viewed as

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"our mother", "Jerusalem above" (Galatians 4:26) can only be understood in the Son of God. It is sonship that is in view in Galatians: but in Hebrews it is a city built and made. This is not an abstract thought, but a veritable city, having foundations, a wall, gates, a street, and, above all, a temple, which is the Lord God Almighty, and the Lamb.

May the Lord engage our hearts with Himself as the One who forms this wondrous city, and as the One who will be known there, and who will give character to it!

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THE HOLY SPIRIT

Luke 2:25 - 32; Revelation 1:10 - 11.

My thought is to seek to call your attention to the Holy Ghost. I do not intend to speak of Him in the varied relations in which He is presented to us in the Scriptures, but I wish more particularly to speak of Him as giving us the capacity to apprehend divine things. I wish to engage you with the great fact of the presence of the Spirit here, in regard to what God is going to establish publicly in the future.

It is a matter of the greatest importance that we should understand that all intelligence as to divine things is of necessity by the Spirit of God. You will recall how the apostle introduces this in the epistle to the Corinthians. He introduces it in connection with that which was creeping in among the Christians at Corinth: that is to say, the activity of man's mind in divine things. That is wholly excluded from the sphere of divine things: it has no place there. In the first place, God would not admit of it; in the second place, it has no ability whatever to take in the things of God. "What man knoweth the things of a man save the spirit of man which is in him, even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God". 1 Corinthians 2:11.

God has not given to us the spirit that is of the world, He has given to us the Spirit that is of God, that we may know the things that are freely given to us of God; and it seems to me to be of immense importance that every believer should be concerned as to the things which God has prepared for them that love Him. God takes account of the love of His people, and prepares things for those that love Him, and before they are actually displayed God has given His Spirit to us that we may know them. We all believe the doctrine of the Holy Ghost down here, but you want to realise that the Person is here. I think

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if there is one thing more than another that God would have emphasised for His people at the present time, it is the great preponderating fact of the actual, living presence of the Spirit of God here below, in answer to Christ as Man in heaven. He shows us things to come, and He is also the power in us whereby we understand and appreciate these things. "We have the mind of Christ;" (1 Corinthians 2:16) that is to say, we have a divinely-given faculty of thought, and this is by the Spirit of God. He would engage your heart with the unseen system of things the system of things that is to replace the present, and is to abide. As the apostle says, "we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen, for the things which are seen are temporal: but the things which are not seen are eternal". 2 Corinthians 4:18.

What I think the enemy succeeded in doing at the outset was to reduce divine things to the level of man's mind. Divine things are sacred, and we treat them as common when we reduce them to the range of the human intellect. We must be on our guard as to the mind of man; reducing the truth of God and the things of God to the level of man's mind, is what has to a great extent brought about Christendom.

Now what strikes me in regard to the gospel of Luke is the prominent place the Spirit of God has in it. His presence and activity give character to the opening chapter -- first in relation to John the Baptist, and then to the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. What a peculiarly holy scene is presented! How entirely out of place the mind of man, and all that man is after the flesh, would be there! It opens with Zacharias, the priest, who has a wife of the daughters of Aaron; then that wonderful character, Mary, the mother of the Lord; the Holy Ghost comes upon each. Then we see Him in Simeon, and John the Baptist, and finally (but in a unique way, and permanently), in the Lord Himself. As taught of God

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we recognise the suitability of all this; the birth into this world, and public appearance of the Lord for ministry necessitated morally all this divine interest and activity; and no attentive reader can fail to appreciate the holy simplicity of the scene presented, as pervaded and controlled by the Spirit of God. I desire that each one should understand that Christianity involves the complete exclusion of every trace morally of the first man, and the introduction of Another, who has become the Head and Centre of an entirely new system of things, which is pervaded in the power of the Spirit with divine simplicity, holiness, and blessedness. That is what is seen at the incoming of the Holy Ghost from Christ in heaven. Look at that wonderful chapter in the opening of the Acts, and see the beautiful simplicity of those disciples of the Lord as He is taken from them. There they are gazing up into heaven after the object of their affections, who has gone in there, and then they return to Jerusalem, according to His words, and there they are seen in prayer. Look at the simplicity of all that. It was the fruit of the Lord's own work, and it conveys to our minds what was to characterise Christianity -- affection and dependence. And now the blessed Spirit of God comes, and there is that marvellous display of divine power down here for God. The early chapters of the Acts present Christianity to us in its original power and simplicity, and I believe the Lord would recall our hearts to this, and He would maintain us in a walk that would be in accordance with it. God would maintain Christianity down here, for if this is allowed to slip away, the testimony of God slips away with it.

In the opening of Luke, as I was saying, you get the Holy Ghost in connection with the birth of Christ, and then in chapter 4 in connection with His ministry. What you get in Luke is the exquisite beauty of humanity according to God as seen in the Person of

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Christ: it is Man as anointed by the Spirit that is brought before you, and chapter 4 presents a striking illustration of this. Dwell for a moment on the picture of that blessed Man standing up in the synagogue of Nazareth to read! There had never been such reading in the history of the world. Did you ever think of the Lord Jesus Christ standing there in the presence of men to read? He stood up to read, and He would have a Scripture. He closed the book, and handing it to an attendant, sat down. It is all recorded for a purpose, there was grace in every movement: it says, "The eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him". Luke 4:20. Then He begins to speak. Oh, what speaking! Do not for the moment dwell upon what He said, but seek to discover how He said it. The passage further says, they "wondered at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth". Luke 4:22. The Spirit would engage our hearts with Christ thus presented, and would produce in us such spiritual taste as would enable us to appreciate such divine beauty and perfection seen in Man. There was a time when I had very little interest in the gospels, I had much more in the epistles; but I can say now (if one may make comparisons), that there is no part of the Scripture that attracts me more than the gospels. In this chapter it is Christ anointed to preach that is before us. Would that all who preach made Him their model! First, He selects the right Scripture and reads it, stopping at the proper place; then He sits down, His movements being attractive, and finally He speaks, and His words are words of grace. Note that the point of view here of Christ is not of a divine Person acting as of Himself: it is Man (although ever a divine Person), in the place of obedience, acting in the power of the Holy Ghost.

Now I want to direct your attention to Simeon -- to the particular phase of the Spirit's work which we see represented in him. We may speak of it as an

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illustration of the believer being directed to the temple. Simeon came into the temple by the Spirit of God. There is nothing at all in the way of movement or activity of any pleasure to God except what is by the Spirit. This is a great day for the activity of man's mind in research, discoveries, and inventions, but do you think God has any pleasure in that kind of activity? No; but if a man moves towards the temple by the Spirit, that is a matter of excessive importance in the eye of God. It matters little what you may be publicly, if your heart is under the control of the Spirit, you may depend you are of intense interest to God. You can conceive of Simeon moving toward the temple. It was revealed to him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death until he had seen the Lord's Christ, and this was to be in the temple. That is where you see all things in their true light and bearing. You cannot be intelligent without the Scriptures, but if you move by the Spirit into the temple, you will be surprised to find how much you discover there. The oracles of God are in the temple, therefore that is the place to go to find out things. What a wonderful thing it was for the Christians at Corinth, in the presence of all the activity of man's mind, to discover by the letter of the apostle that they were the temple of God! He says, "ye are the temple of God". 1 Corinthians 3:16. All divine light is in the temple, and it is in coming into it that you are made acquainted with the mind of God. What did Simeon find in the temple? I will tell you what he found: he found what you will find there -- he found Christ. Speaking of the temple in this way may seem to make much of the saints; be it so; the Scriptures say that Christians are the temple of God. We are on safe ground when resting on Scripture, especially if recognising Christ, the Spirit, and the temple.

Simeon took the little Child into his arms, and said, "Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace,

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according to thy word, for mine eyes have seen thy salvation". Luke 2:29. This is the light in which Simeon first speaks of Him. Christ is salvation. He is salvation personally, whatever the position He occupies -- whether He be on earth or in heaven. It is not that He was salvation for Simeon simply; He was God's salvation, which had been prepared before the face of all people. To the man who needs salvation, Christ is preached as Lord in heaven: salvation for every man is obtained through faith in Him; but it is another thing entirely to come, as it were, by the Spirit into the temple, and apprehend Him as God's salvation. You will always find Christ in the temple: He is there by the Spirit.

Now I desire to go a little bit further. Simeon does not stop with the thought of salvation. He says, "a light to lighten the Gentiles", or more correctly rendered, "a light for revelation of the Gentiles". Luke 2:32. The Gentiles had been like a dark body upon which the sun had never shone. The light of God only shone upon a small part of the earth -- Palestine. Intense darkness covered all outside, but now this marvellous moral Sun rises upon the earth for the revelation of the Gentile world; it brings the heathen nations into the view of God for blessing. Did you ever apprehend Christ in that light? You are led into it by the Spirit of God. The Gentiles are to be no longer regarded as outside of the pale of blessing and privilege: their Head has now appeared, and henceforth they appear, as related to Him, under the eye of God.

But there is a third point: "The glory of thy people Israel". Luke 2:32. That is what Christ is. He is the salvation of Jehovah, the light for the revelation of the Gentiles, and the glory of His people Israel. You want to apprehend Christ in all those connections, but how can you do it? You must give place to the Spirit of God. If you recognise the Spirit of God, you will find

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that He will bring you into the intelligence of Christ in all these wonderful lights, and much more.

I will dwell for a moment on the passage in Revelation. It is only to connect the thought of revelation with the Spirit. The impression I should like to leave upon every heart here is that of the greatness of Christ and the varied relations in which He is presented, which can only be apprehended by the Spirit. John says, "I was in the Spirit". Revelation 1:10. See how the early Christians recognised the Spirit! Being in the Spirit seems to be mentioned as something that occurred frequently. No doubt John was always "in the Spirit" as to his state, but I think that what is indicated here is a man so under the control of the Spirit as to be abstracted entirely from seen things. We cannot expect to realise all the experience of John in Patmos, but we can enjoy something of the blessed privileges involved in being in the Spirit on the Lord's day. If the Spirit of God controls your heart and mind, wonderful things will come before you: the things of God will be opened up to you. The Lord's day was a very proper time to be in the Spirit; the Lord and the Spirit go together. If the Lord has a day, you may depend the Spirit will have a day, and the saints will have a day too. We should be for the Lord each day in the week, but I think He would have us entirely apart for Himself on the first day. It would be well if we were to consider this. The conditions spoken of here were not peculiar to John, they are available to all Christians. We have the Lord, the Spirit, and the Lord's day. John goes on to say, "And I heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet". Revelation 1:10. Whose voice was it? The voice of the One whose day it was -- the Lord's voice. It was the Lord's day, and He was speaking. He calls John's attention to Himself. "I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last". Revelation 1:11. John heard this, and he heard and saw a great deal more, as may be seen in this

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wonderful Apocalypse. How did he come to hear the Lord and see all these things? He was in the Spirit. Simeon also was in the Spirit, he had come by Him into the temple, and so saw the Lord's Christ.

May we yield ourselves to the Holy Ghost, who will not fail to engage us with divine Persons, and will open up divine things to us!

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Pages 380 to 436 "Readings in Exodus, New York, 1906" Volume 3).

READING IN EXODUS

Exodus 12:1 - 28.

J.P. I suppose that the opening language of the chapter would indicate that we have here the beginning of things on the side of the people.

J.T. Yes. The testimony begins earlier on the part of God, but then you do not get a direct effect produced in the people until you come to chapter 12. The testimony rightly apprehended in the soul of man produces movement, and I think it is from that point you get the beginning on our side. This chapter announces the judgment of Egypt and its gods.

W.H.F. Is chapter 3 the beginning from God's side?

J.T. Yes, and to rightly understand the book of Exodus I think we have to go back to the first chapter and compare it with the closing chapters of Genesis. What you will find is that there is a complete change in the ruling-power.

W.H.F. As to Pharaoh?

J.T. Yes, the change of the ruling-power brought about altered conditions for the people. At the end of Genesis, in connection with Joseph, the people were in the land of Goshen. They were well taken care of. Deliverance from Egypt would have been out of place then. Their going into Egypt was a question of the preservation of the people, but the change in the ruling-power brought about conditions that necessitated the intervention of God for deliverance from Egypt. Egypt, in connection with Joseph, is God's provision for the people in view of the famine in Canaan; but in the book of Exodus it is deliverance from Egypt with Canaan in view.

G.W.H. In consequence of another king arising

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in Egypt the people were in great bondage, and in the furnace of iron.

J.T. Yes, as a consequence of another king arising who knew not Joseph.

R.S.S. What is the application of that at the present time?

J.T. I think Egypt represents the world-system of the flesh as under the domination of Satan. How he got control would be another consideration, but the fact that presents itself is that he is actually in control. The crucifixion of Christ proves this: Satan is the "prince of this world". He is in the place of rule, and the effect of that is that men are suffering; men are in bondage and it is to that condition of things the gospel applies. He did not get that place exactly in Genesis 3, although he did gain a footing here at the beginning through man's disobedience, but I think that strictly the gospel applies more to the conditions resulting from Satan having a footing in the place of rule over man. God has intervened to meet these conditions, hence the gospel announces Christ as in the place of rule -- "Christ Jesus Lord", You cannot have the conditions down here altered without One in rule who is favourable to man, and that is what the gospel introduces. It introduces a change in the place of rule, which is the kingdom of the heavens, and the result of that is good for man down here.

Ques. Would the Scripture, "Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world", (Galatians 1:4) furnish proof for what you say?

J.T. It proves what was in the Lord's mind, but of course that passage does not give you the kingdom. His thought was to deliver us from this present evil age according to the will of God our Father; but deliverance comes to pass really through the kingdom.

Ques. Do you connect the gospel with the kingdom then?

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J.T. Yes, you could not have the gospel without the kingdom.

R.S.S. In fact it is the glad tidings of the kingdom.

J.T. With one in control who is malicious, and has nothing at all in his mind but the overthrow of what is good, and the suffering of man, evidently the only way of deliverance is by the in-coming of One who is greater, and so capable of overthrowing that malicious being from the place of rule. This is seen in Christ.

R.S.S. Was rule or government first brought in in connection with Noah?

J.T. There is no record of it in Scripture before that.

R.S.S. It is in connection with God's command: "Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed". Genesis 9:6.

J.T. Yes. There was a new element introduced in connection with Noah, and that was the element of government, and it is in connection with that the present world exists. God has never deviated from that principle, but Satan I think has seized it, and he has got a footing in the place of rule. The gospel announces that the Man who is now in the place of rule is One who had been tested down here, and in every sense proved Himself to be man's Friend, so that you can expect nothing for man but good and blessing.

R.S.S. I was struck with what is in the next chapter in regard to Nimrod. There I think you get the first thought of a kingdom -- Nimrod, who was "a mighty hunter before the Lord". Genesis 10:9.

J.T. Nimrod's kingdom continues, and conveys to us the idea of the present world-system -- Babylon.

R.S.S. I think the statement in Genesis 10 is striking: "He began to be a mighty one in the earth" ... "And the beginning of his kingdom was Babel". Genesis 10:9,10.

J.T. "Nimrod" probably means "rebel", and that would bear out the thought pretty much that it

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is the world system under a ruling influence that has rebelled against God.

R.S.S. What is your thought as to his being a mighty hunter before the Lord?

J.T. I think it was simply that God was cognisant of his exploits. It does not at all convey the thought that these were favourable to God.

R.S.S. "Mighty hunter" conveys the thought of one who was regardless of life. That would be characteristic of the beast, as we may see foreshadowed in the first Napoleon. I suppose he was responsible for more bloodshed than any other man in the world.

J.T. If a man is careless as to the lower creation, the next step is that he is careless as to humanity itself. In Genesis 9 God makes a covenant not only with man, but with the beast of the field and the earth as well. That is, God takes in every part of the creation in kindness and in goodness. Hunting (using God's creatures for the gratification of one's desire for sport) goes with rebellion. A man who will treat the lower animals thus will not stop at humanity itself if he has the opportunity.

R.S.S. It is well to bear in mind that God was the originator of government; and it is striking that this of it which we have been speaking appears in the very next chapter.

J.T. Satan is not an originator; he is an imitator. He does not originate anything except sin. But government in itself is good, and so of God; but Satan, I think, has seized the idea of it and imitated it.

J.P. We could hardly understand what chapter 12 brings before us except in the light of this change of rulers, and the conditions consequent upon the change.

J.T. We do not reach the kingdom directly until we come to chapter 15, but nevertheless the power of the kingdom was in activity from chapter 3. This is particularly seen if you apply the typical teaching

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here to Christ, in whom, as become Man, we get verified, "I am come down to deliver". Exodus 3:8. The power of the kingdom was manifested in Him all the way through. I think that the kingdom of God is not connected so much with territory as the kingdom of heaven. The kingdom of God is not so much a question of God ruling over a given sphere, although they are sometimes interchangeable expressions in the gospels. I think the kingdom of God is more God intervening in power where evil is, in order to relieve man of the evil in the presence of evil. In Matthew the kingdom of God is connected with the presence of Christ here on earth, whereas the kingdom of heaven had in view His being in heaven. The Lord says, "If I by the Spirit of God cast out demons, then indeed the kingdom of God is come upon you". Luke 11:20. God was acting in power down here in Christ for the overthrow of evil, and this sets forth the true idea of the kingdom of God.

Ques. Do you think there is any illustration of new birth in the second verse we read in Exodus?

J.T. I think the title of the book aptly sets forth the teaching up to chapter 15. It is a question of movement out of Egypt. This comes later in the history of your soul than new birth. New birth in itself would not produce movement. It is the gospel that produces movement. Directly the gospel comes to you it opens up an outlet from that which is prefigured in Egypt, and the believer readily avails himself of the outlet, and that is the beginning for him.

J.P. There is a Scripture in the Acts that sets that forth. It was the Lord's command to Paul. He was sent to open their eyes, that they might turn from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God.

J.T. Yes, that is really perhaps the most characteristic passage as setting forth the effect of the gospel received in the soul: it leads to conversion. You are

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turned, but you would never be converted without something presented to turn to. New birth does not present anything to you. It refers to the sovereign act of God in us, and it is not a question of light. It is a question of a new principle being introduced in the soul that demands light, and the gospel brings the light to you that your soul demands, and the effect of that is that there is movement.

Ques. Is there not an exercise of soul Godward in new birth?

J.T. I think so. There is a desire and demand for light, for God and the things of God, but light is properly by the gospel.

Rem Some one has said there might be a cry at new birth.

J.T. Yes, but light is properly by the gospel, so He says, "to open their eyes". That is by light and then the effect of the light is that you turn, which is properly conversion. "That they may turn from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive remission of sins and inheritance among them that are sanctified by faith in me". Acts 26:18. The last part of that quotation is what is least understood amongst us as far as I am able to observe. "Receive ... inheritance among them that are sanctified by faith in me".

Ques. Would you explain that?

J.T. I think the idea of inheritance of necessity goes with the glad tidings, for everybody wants an inheritance. Everybody wants something, and you want an inheritance, and God includes the thought of inheritance in the gospel. The next thing is, where is the inheritance to be found? The statement goes on to say, "that they may receive ... inheritance among them that are sanctified by faith in me". Acts 26:18. The inheritance is received among them that are sanctified. Literally it is not obtained whilst we are here, but we have the earnest of the inheritance:

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"Having believed, ye have been sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the earnest of our inheritance to the redemption of the acquired possession to the praise of his glory". Ephesians 1:14. But the reception of the inheritance is connected with the sanctified company.

Ques. No one would enjoy an inheritance alone, would they?

J.T. Each one of us is an heir, "if a son, then an heir of God", (Romans 8:17) but when the inheritance is taken up it is taken up jointly in connection with Christ, We are "heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ" Romans 8:17.

Ques. Do forgiveness of sins and inheritance go together?

J.T. Forgiveness is the negative side, but you have an inheritance, which is something positive.

C.W.H. When God called Abraham He promised him an inheritance.

J.T. There must be something for us. God considers every thought and desire that would naturally arise in our hearts, and the gospel meets them. The inheritance refers to the coming age, when God takes up all things in heaven and in earth in Christ, and we are joint-heirs with Him.

Ques. Then it is really being in the good of something to come?

J.T. Already by the Spirit, who is the earnest of it, we are partakers in the inheritance, but it is properly known and enjoyed "among them that are sanctified". Acts 26:18. Outwardly, the Lord was cut off and had nothing, but through the gospel faith recognizes Him as Heir of all things, and those who believe on Him now share with Him when He comes into His possessions.

Rem. In Peter the inheritance is looked at as being reserved in heaven, but now we can be in the good of it in a measure of the Spirit.

J.T. That is the idea.

Ques. Does the inheritance involve new creation?

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J.T. All things will be made new in principle even in the millennium, but the inheritance refers to what has come out in testimony as belonging to God in connection with this creation. The church is outside of this; although she is seen in this creation in the way of testimony, she does not belong to it -- she is an entirely new and heavenly creation. As such she shares the inheritance with Christ. I think the true idea of heirship is seen in Isaac. There was much to be inherited from one who was himself heir of the world; besides, Abraham already was blessed of the Lord in flocks, and herds, and silver, and gold, and menservants, and maidservants, and camels, and asses. Isaac, as heir, would come into possession of all this but as heir Isaac was a son, and as such was the object of Abraham's affection; Sarah had borne him to Abraham when she was old, hence Abraham gave unto Isaac all that he had. Rebecca was not a part of Abraham's possessions: she was from another country, but was akin to Isaac and so fit to be his wife and thus to share the inheritance with him. This foreshadows the church's place with Christ, who is the Heir, and to whom, as Son, the Father has given "all that he hath". Genesis 24:36.

Ques. Do you make a distinction between a gift and an inheritance?

J.T. The inheritance is a gift in a sense, but we come into the inheritance because we are sons "If a son, then an heir of God through Christ". Romans 8:17.

Rem. Gifts might be given to anyone (Abraham gave gifts to the sons of his concubines), but it gives me great joy in my soul to know that I shall share jointly with Christ in the inheritance.

Ques Is the thought as to the inheritance in Acts 26 the same as in Ephesians 1:11 and 14?

J.T. Yes. Acts 26 announces that there was an inheritance to be obtained among those sanctified by faith in Christ. It is not actually taken possession

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of yet, otherwise it would not be on the principle of faith. This is for the individual. Ephesians 1 presents what is collective: the saints had obtained an inheritance in Christ, and then it is said that the Spirit was the earnest of this inheritance until the redemption of the acquired possession. Then lower down in Ephesians 1 God's inheritance is spoken of. The saints were God's inheritance.

Ques. Was not your thought to emphasise the sanctified company?

J.T. That is a very important point. It is "among them that are sanctified", showing that divine things are placed in relation to sanctification. The element of sanctification is always essential to divine things.

J.P. You could not touch anything of God without sanctification.

J.T. It is said, "without which (holiness) no man shall see the Lord". Hebrews 12:14.

Ques. Would you apply the word "sanctified" to all believers?

J.T. I think from the divine side every one having the Holy Ghost is sanctified of necessity. A man must be clean before receiving the Holy Ghost; you could not think of God giving the Holy Ghost to an unclean person; but sanctification is more the effect of the Holy Ghost in us.

G.W.H. Do you connect Romans 3 with Exodus 12?

J.T. Exodus 12 does not go so far as Romans 3. Romans is more than simply meeting human need. Romans 3 is God vindicating Himself in respect of the justification of man. This is in connection with the mercy-seat, which we do not get in the types until the tabernacle was constructed. In Exodus 12 the blood was placed on the individual's door, in virtue of which he was exempt from judgment, but on the Day of Atonement, Leviticus 16, the blood was sprinkled

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upon the mercy-seat. The blood on the mercy-seat is for the whole universe. It is to Leviticus 16, Romans 3:26 refers: "Christ Jesus, whom God hath set forth a mercy-seat, through faith in his blood, for the showing forth of his righteousness". Christ risen is the mercy-seat. God looked down upon Him, and now that Christ has died His blood, so to speak, is upon the mercy-seat. God is thus vindicated, and redemption is in Christ. In Romans 3 it is only applied to men, but redemption is in Christ for the whole creation. This is foreshadowed in Leviticus 16. Therefore, although the believer readily sees from Romans 3 that he cannot, as justified, be judged with the world, yet he sees more, namely, that he has a footing in the very presence of the holiness and majesty of God.

W.H.F. The security of the people was assured before God deals with the enemy.

J.T. And then another thing comes out: if the people are to go out it would be in a subjective condition morally suitable to God; as to the flesh they differed in no way from the Egyptians, but they were not to go out of Egypt as characterised by this state -- that which brought down the judgment of God on the Egyptians must be judged not only in the slain lamb (the blood on the lintel witnessed to this), but also in their souls. Their eating the roast lamb with bitter herbs signifies this side of the truth.

R.S.S. After they moved they had to stand still. What is your thought about that?

J.T. That raises the question of salvation, which is a distinct thing from the blood on the lintel, although you could not possibly have it without the blood; but "the salvation of the Lord" is in chapter 14. There it has reference to Pharaoh and his hosts.

Rem. When the people got across the Red Sea they were saved from their enemies, but they would find other elements from which they would need to be saved -- they had not as yet got into Canaan.

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J.T. The Red Sea is figuratively the death and resurrection of Christ by which the enemy is destroyed for faith. Thus the believer is no more troubled from Satan in the Pharaoh character; but subsequently he will need deliverance from him as working through the flesh and worldly association. So that salvation in the fullest sense involves our going through Jordan into Canaan.

R.S.S. That is anticipated when they said: "Thou in thy mercy hast led forth the people which thou hast redeemed: thou hast guided them in thy strength unto thy holy habitation". Exodus 15:13. So that the wilderness comes in by the way, as a parenthesis.

J.T. Yes. Chapter 15 celebrates God's side, hence all is regarded as already accomplished, for time and obstacles are not taken into account when His work is in question: things that be not are spoken of as though they were. The actual position and state of the people are another matter. There were many obstacles in their way. We all know how true this is, although assured that by the almighty power of God (in the light of which, in Christ's resurrection, we have begun our course), our feet shall be planted in the mountain of His inheritance.

Ques You said that chapter 12 gives immunity from judgment. Does that not directly connect it with the gospel? In having nothing to fear from God, one sets his face toward God in order to get out of the clutches of the enemy.

J.T. I think so; and then what you find is a way divinely opened up for you, and it is a way opened up to God Himself, for that is the point in this section of the book of Exodus: "ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself". Exodus 19:4.

J.P. Again referring to Acts 26: "that they may turn from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God". Acts 26:18. The very language there implies that

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in connection with their eyes being opened God has come out in light and in power, so there is a way from darkness to light, and from Satan's power to God.

Rem. Then we have, "for Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God". 1 Peter 3:18.

J.T. I think the answer to Exodus strictly is that the soul is brought to God; but then another question arises, and that is, a place for the soul. That question has its answer later, which is Canaan. But the soul is brought to God first.

Ques. Is the soul's appropriation of Christ signified by eating the lamb?

J.T. Yes; it is appropriation of Christ as the One who suffered for sin. The lamb was to be roast with fire. What goes with this are the bitter herbs and unleavened bread. These are proper accompaniments of appropriation of Christ in that light. The manna, the shew-bread, and the old corn of the land all speak of Christ: each, in its own connection, represents Him as food for the believer, but the beginning is evidently with the roast lamb. While the soul is still in Egypt it appropriates Christ as having been subjected to the judgment of God on account of sin.

J.P. It is Christ our passover who has been sacrificed for us. What is set forth here takes place in Egypt. It is in type the history of what takes place in each individual soul. You do not get to what is properly collective until you reach chapter 15. These moral foundations must be laid in our souls, otherwise we cannot reach, according to God, that which is collective. I think if we attempt to take up what is collective apart from the work of God in us individually, which is set forth in type here, the result can only be what we can see on every hand -- wretched failure.

Ques. What distinction do you make between the passover and the Lord's supper?

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J.T. They present quite different thoughts. The passover, as we said, represents Christ as having borne the judgment of God on account of sin; hence it is introduced in 1 Corinthians in connection with the allowance of leaven in the assembly. Christ had suffered for sin: why, then, were the Corinthians allowing it in their midst? "Christ our passover is sacrificed", etc. 1 Corinthians 5:7. The feast is to be kept in Christianity, but it is not limited to the assembly as convened: the sense that the Lord has suffered for sin has to be maintained constantly; and we have ever to he truthful and sincere.

But the Lord's supper refers, not to Him as bearing sin, but to Him as in self-sacrificing love giving Himself for us. It is Himself that is before us, as seen in His love in dying for us. "This is my body which is for you: this do in remembrance of me". 1 Corinthians 11:24. The "you" is collective: it is the Lord's love for the assembly that is really before us. The saints are not spoken of as "in assembly" in 1 Corinthians until chapter 11, and it is in this connection the supper is introduced. The supper, evidently, cannot be celebrated in an individual way.

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READING IN EXODUS

Exodus 16, 17 and 18.

R.S.S. You were saying this morning that in eating the passover we appropriate Christ as sacrificed for sin; this is in connection with Egypt, but in the wilderness we have the manna, which is Christ again.

J.T. Yes, the passover-lamb was food: it is food for the soul as judging sin, and so in Exodus it stands at the beginning of the soul's history. The manna presents Christ according to what He was as here in the flesh in His daily life in a world of contrariety.

As having to do practically with the world of the flesh, and having the flesh in ourselves, we have to maintain constantly a distinct sense that Christ suffered for sin; but we have also to do with a contrary scene, a scene where there is nothing to support or minister to us: Christ has been in this, and the grace that shone in Him in it becomes food to us.

The teaching pf Exodus up to chapter 19 is on the divine side: it is all a question of pure grace on the part of God.

J.P. It is a very beautiful section in that way. In spite of the murmuring of the people you get this wonderful ministration of pure grace on the part of God.

J.T. Chapter 12 speaks of movement, but the movement there is not the same at all as the movement spoken of in chapter 15. In chapter 15 they take three days' journey in the wilderness, and that is not the same idea as movement out of Egypt. Chapters 12, 13 and 14 give us typically the movement of our souls as coming to a distinct judgment of what Egypt is: we wish to leave it, and the death and resurrection of Christ open up a way out of it to God. You are brought to God and then you begin the wilderness journey.

They take three days' journey and meet with

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Marah; then following upon that they reach Elim; then the manna and the smitten rock, leading on to chapter 17, which introduces a new character entirely -- Joshua. All this refers to individual experience: the road traversed in our souls.

J.G. What answers to Marah now?

J.T. I think the things that come upon us in the way of discipline, etc.; things which we would abhor as in the flesh, but the cross makes them sweet. Taking up the position which the acceptance of the gospel involves (that the world is a wilderness, Christ having died out of it), the believer encounters these things, and at first they are bitter, but the Spirit enables him to apply the cross, and then all is changed -- he glories in tribulations.

J.P. I think you said that the twelve wells of water at Elim are a figure of the ministry of the Spirit in the assembly?

J.T. Yes, I think they are.

J.P. You are not in the assembly when you are drinking the bitter water of Marah. It is your individual path really in the wilderness, and it is what comes against you consequent upon your having taken up such a path.

J.T. I think Marah signifies the things which the believer meets with in his experience which indicate God's refusal of the flesh in him -- that which brought Christ under the waters of judgment. The judgment which is destruction to man in the flesh (the Egyptian), becomes to the Christian, because Christ has been in it, sweet and wholesome discipline.

Rem. These things foreshadow what we meet with in the wilderness.

J.T. They are types of what we have really. These chapters are for Christians, and have their own language, and you will have to understand the language in order to understand them. Unless we

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understand the typical books we shall be under great disadvantages in our daily experience.

Rem. Elim represents the ministry of the Spirit it is different to Numbers 21: "spring up, O well", etc. Numbers 21:17.

J.T. Yes; the Spirit is with the people from Exodus 15 onwards, although not viewed as characteristic of their state until you come to Numbers 21. There they sing to the Holy Ghost typically, "spring up, O well; sing ye unto it". Numbers 21:17. When the flesh is practically displaced in us Canaan comes quickly into view.

W.H.F. Would you say that as typified in Elim the Holy Ghost is rather on God's side as refreshment, if one might so express it, and after Numbers 21 He comes in on our side

J.T. Yes, that is what I think. The twelve wells of water and seventy palm trees must apply to what was to be found in the assembly at the beginning, for it was only there you could get the refreshment of the Holy Ghost and the protection of those who were gifted. Of course Elim remains for us, as also does Marah; but anyone can see the difference between them, although water is seen in both cases. I feel that it is only as you drink the waters of Marah that you get a taste for the waters of Elim: that is, the more you accept the circumstances which mean death to the flesh, the greater will be your taste for and appreciation of divine things. Hence you value coming into contact with the saints where the ministry of the Holy Ghost is, and where there is protection. Everybody who knows anything about the wilderness knows the value of the seventy palm trees. I have never been in a wilderness, but I know what it is to be in a position where the sun is beating down upon you, and you want to find shelter. Here in the midst of the desert you get shelter -- seventy palm trees.

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That is what Elim presents -- a place of shelter and refreshment.

R.S.S. But Marah does not set forth exactly the trials that are common to flesh. It is rather in connection, as you were saying a moment ago, with the position you have taken up as a believer.

JT. Yes; in the light of the death of Christ the things which you would dread naturally you now regard as in your favour.

Ques. Would you connect Exodus 19:4, "I bare you on eagles' wings", with Ephesians 1:19, "what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power", etc.?

J.T. All is on God's side up to chapter 19. "Eagles' wings" mean the power of God by which the people had been carried, regardless of their conduct, to Him. He supported the people and made no complaint as to their conduct. I think it is a great thing for every believer to be established in the sense of the grace of God. Even if there is bad conduct (which is never to be excused), God is for you.

Ques. What would you understand by the children of Israel meeting Marah just after obtaining this wonderful deliverance?

J.T. I think it is what every one experiences; that is, you rejoice in the blessed light of God that comes about through the glad tidings. That is chapter 15. But when you turn and have to do experimentally with what has to be gone through in everyday life, you find the element of the flesh in you, and things happen that are objectionable to you, but as supported and enlightened by God you come to see that what the flesh refuses is the best thing for you. This is Marah. Then you get following close upon that, Elim. That is, God has made wonderful provision for you outside of yourself

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in the assembly. You will understand what I am speaking about. It is not a question of putting the assembly in the place of Christ, but the twelve wells of water do not represent Christ personally; neither do the seventy palm trees. They represent what Christ has placed here for the refreshment and protection of the believer.

Rem. They are in the desert.

J.T. Yes, but Elim is surely not a desert. Everybody knows that where you get seventy palm trees and twelve wells that it is not a desert. It is in the desert, but is not a desert, You can understand that although Marah is there for the believer, the wilderness without Elim would be a dreadful place. It is dreadful enough as it is, but with Elim you can go through it. The personal support of Christ and His leadership are treated of further on in this book.

Rem. So they abode by Elim.

J.P. And they encamped there by the waters: not by the trees, but by the waters.

Ques I wanted to ask you about the assembly being here, and placed here by Christ. While the assembly is not Christ, He is connected with it, and with every blessing, and without Him, of course, it could not be anything?

J.T. Quite so, only the twelve wells of water point to ministry, and allude to the apostles, I think; the seventy palm trees having allusion, I judge, to the seventy the Lord sent out; but we must always remember that the Lord said, "without me ye can do nothing". John 15:5.

W.H.F. Only here you have distinctly the ministry of the Spirit.

J.T. It indicates a spot where there is water and shelter. You and I ought to be able to give an account of where that is.

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W.H.F. I think we have proved that we get shelter and refreshment in the assembly.

Rem. At the same time that is much marred by the failure that has come in, and we do not experience the same blessing that we would had there been no failure.

J.T. We can never get what they had at the beginning, but where the saints are walking in the light of the church, and the Lord is given His place, and the Holy Ghost is given His place, you get Elim in measure.

Rem. In connection with Elim I was thinking of Psalm 23:1,2. "The Lord is my Shepherd; I shall not want. He maketh me to lie down in green pastures; He leadeth me beside the still waters". Would that not answer to Elim? So after all it is the Lord who brings you there, and leads you as the Shepherd.

J.T. Yes.

G.W.H. Would you say something about the manna? That is, chapter 16.

J.T. That is distinctively Christ. It is not the assembly, nor has it anything directly to do with the assembly. I take the manna to be Christ according to what He was here among men in humility, in flesh.

G.W.H. Like Philippians 2, "humbled here".

J.T. Yes, in that way. "Christ once humbled here".

G.W.H. For us as individuals?

J.T. Yes, it is the food for you in your everyday life. You have something to live by every day. That is what the manna was for.

Ques. Would that be like the bread of life in John 6?

J.T. No, that is a different thought, and you have a different thought still in the old corn of the land.

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J.P. John is not comparison. It is contrast really to the manna. It is not the relation of type and anti-type.

J.T. The bread in John 6 is not for everyday support at all. It is for life: it is that a man might eat and live, and live for ever.

Ques. So that would be more in view of the land, would you say?

J.T. Yes.

G.W.H. "He that eateth me even he shalt live by me". John 6:57.

R.S.S. It says, "Except ye eat ... ye have no life". John 6:53.

J.T. "Have no life in yourselves".

R.S.S. "Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness and died". John 6:49.

J.T. Yes, they ate and died. It is a contrast to "He that eateth this bread shall live for ever". John 6:58. John 6 is a question of life. It is not a question of sustenance in your path of responsibility; eating there is for life. The Lord says, "The bread withal which I shall give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world". John 6:51.

R.S.S. The manna would be for the believer also?

J.T. It is only for the believer, but viewed as in his mortal condition -- a condition which comes to an end. Manna is for a people already in relationship with God, but in the wilderness; in John 6 "any one" who eats the bread of life lives for ever. The manna is not Christ as having died; it refers to what He was here in the flesh among men; but it was "bread from heaven".

J.P. The last verse but one of this chapter indicates the sphere in which the manna was eaten, and the period of its duration; "And the children of Israel did eat manna forty years, until they came

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to a land inhabited; they did eat manna, until they came unto the borders of the land of Canaan". Exodus 16:35.

J.T. Later it says: "The manna ceased on the morrow after the passover". Joshua 5:12. After they entered Canaan the manna ceased, but the bread in John 6 is not supposed to cease.

R.S.S. "For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully. For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God. For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving as an example, that ye should follow his steps". 1 Peter 2:19 - 21. Such a Scripture as this shows that Christ, as here in the flesh, should be before the believer in his path of responsibility. We shall find that He has been before us in every circumstance.

J.P. As you said, a new person is introduced in chapter 17 -- Joshua. What answers in our experience to Joshua as presented here?

J.T. I think Joshua is Christ as the spiritual Leader of His people. It dawns upon you now that you have a new Leader, and you fall into line, as it were, with Him. It is Christ in a spiritual way, not in connection with redemption.

Ques. Is it in connection with conflict?

J.T. It is. This is the first mention you have of the people being in conflict, and Joshua is the characteristic leader of the saints of God in connection with conflict.

G.W.H. The nature of the conflict here differs from what you get later on. That is to say, Amalek is in view.

J.T. Yes. It is not a question of the inheritance here, not a question of dislodging those who are in the land. It is Satan working through the flesh. The water from the smitten rock typifies the Spirit in

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believer in connection with the death of Christ, It is consequent upon this there is conflict with Amalek, and Christ is known in a new way: He is our Leader in connection with the Spirit in us against Satan in the flesh. There is also priesthood on high, as prefigured in Moses on the mount -- Christ at the right hand of God.

There was to be war with Amalek from generation to generation. Moses depended on Aaron and Hur to support his hands, but the hands of the Lord Jesus need no such support. In this conflict we discover in our souls what it is to have to do with satanic power in the flesh, and what it is to have continual support from Christ on high in combating with it.

J.P. It is remarkable the language used here. Notice that word "prevailed". "And it came to pass when Moses held up his hand that Israel prevailed: and when he let down his hand, Amalek prevailed". Exodus 17:11. Amalek does not seem to be killed. God says, "I will utterly blot out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven", Exodus 17:14, but that is not yet. What goes on now is what you alluded to in the last verse: "The Lord will have war with Amalek from generation to generation". Exodus 17:16. Amalek is there. If he had been blotted out the war could not go on from generation to generation, hence the great need of our understanding how he is to be met.

Ques. Would you say a little about Moses, and Aaron and Hur holding up his hands when they were heavy?

J.T. I think we must take the types more in their general bearing. We must always remember these things were shadows, and not the exact image of what they represent. The great shadow that you see here is a man on high with his hands uplifted, and another man below leading an army in combat;

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so it is not difficult to see what is in question: the support of the Priest on high, and the guidance of the spiritual Leader below, and the saints under Him in conflict. That is what is seen clearly in the type.

R.S.S. And it is Christ in both instances.

J.P. What do you think about chapter 18?

J.T. You will notice that Moses' father-in-law, Jethro, appears there. "And Jethro, Moses' father-in-law, took a burnt-offering and sacrifices for God: and Aaron came, and all the elders of Israel, to eat bread with Moses' father-in-law before God". Exodus 18:12. I think that is a wonderful scene. It is a forecast really of the consummation: that is, the Gentile being brought in, together with Israel, to share the blessing of God. So the presentation of the truth up to this point is complete from the divine side. The "king in Jeshurun" was there: Moses is in the midst of the people as king. "And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses sat to judge the people". Exodus 18:13. Then in chapter 19, we read: "And Moses went up unto God, and the Lord called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel: Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you to myself". Exodus 19:3,4. God had done all this for them. He had borne them on eagles' wings and brought them to Himself. What I see especially is the importance of the believer being established in the knowledge of God revealed in Christ; these chapters set forth the terms on which He is with us. It is an immense advantage to us, that even if failure does arise (and failure arises with every one of us), there is no change with God. He is unchangeable, and many believers are hindered in not knowing this. Because when failure arises, they become occupied with it instead of with God, hence the

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failure becomes magnified, and Satan gains an advantage.

J.P. "It is a good thing that the heart be established with grace". Hebrews 13:9. What you have been saying is of great importance to us. The day of failure tests our faith, and if not established in the knowledge of God, and all that He is in grace toward us, the enemy will beat us down.

J.T. Hence the Lord says, "I have prayed for thee that thy faith fail not". Luke 22:32. Even if failure does arise the thing to make sure of is that you do not let go the thought of what God is. You are not any worse than you were when He took you up first, and that is an immense advantage. You do not make light of the failure, or sin; that has to be dealt with, but be sure you are maintained consciously in the sense of what God is.

Rem. I suppose that would lead to forbearance with one another.

J.T. I think it would, because you would act like God acts. God is forbearing with us, and the more you advance in divine things the more you are like God in your ways toward others. A thing that has affected me greatly is the length of time God has borne patiently with me, and I believe the more we grow in the knowledge of God the more we are prepared to be patient with one another.

J.P. I think the parable we get in Matthew 18 is striking in that way. The servant who was forgiven ten thousand talents shows he had no sense of the grace of his lord in forgiving him that immense debt, or he never would have acted toward his fellow-servant who owed him one hundred pence in the way he did.

J.T. No believer should think for a moment that God passes over his guilt or his sins; but that is one thing, and it is another for us to permit the

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enemy to make the sin so heinous in our minds as to think God can have no more dealing with us.

J.P. That is a great deal worse than the failure itself.

J.T. Yes, because it is unbelief. You know what the enemy would do is to produce unbelief.

R.S.S. I am sure what you are speaking of is exceedingly important. I do not suppose we have any idea of how many real Christians there are who suffer fearfully from depression because of not knowing God in grace.

J.T. 1 John 1, is most helpful in this connection. "If we walk in the light as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanses us from all sin" 1 John 1:7. It is not fellowship with God exactly there. The apostles' fellowship was with the Father, and with His Son, but this is fellowship one with another. Sin would mar fellowship with one another, hence is added immediately: "And the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanses us from all sin". That is, we ought to view one another in the light of the blood, and really it is only in that way we can get along in fellowship with one another. The blood cleanses from all sin. I can take that home to myself, but it applies to you also. Sin has to be judged, but the soul has an immense advantage in knowing that the blood cleanses -- that is its value. Then further, if we confess God forgives and cleanses from all unrighteousness. Apart from all this there could not be fellowship in the light as God is in the light. But our souls have also to be maintained in communion with God, and provision is made for this too: "If any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous and he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the whole world". 1 John 2:1. There I think

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your soul is maintained in relation to God, the Father.

Ques. Would you say a word about the covenant?

J.T. The first covenant, whilst it had a literal application to Israel, had also a typical signification. It is a wonderful thought that God should enter into covenant with men; and He indicates here what was in His mind for Israel. He says, "If ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: and ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation". Exodus 19:5,6. But the weakness of the first covenant is seen in the fact that the realisation of what was in God's mind for the people depended on their faithfulness -- "If ye will obey my voice", etc.

Ques. Would you say the children of Israel failed on the ground of responsibility, and God on the ground of grace has brought us into this? We get in Revelation, "And hath made us kings and priests unto God". Revelation 1:6. That is on the ground of redemption, is it not?

J.T. Yes; Peter speaks of this also "Ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people". 1 Peter 2:9. Every thought God gave expression to previously has found its answer in the church by the Spirit. Now the Jews never really reached the thought of God for them. They never were a kingdom of priests, and, although they had been a people, they ceased to be such; now Christians are God's people: "Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God". 1 Peter 2:10.

The first covenant did not effect anything for God, hence He found fault with it and introduces the second. But as we have been saying, the first was typical, and the place it occupies in this book

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corresponds with the order in which we are instructed in the knowledge of God. The earlier chapters set forth the righteousness and power of God, and the grace in which He deals with us; but the covenant sets forth what is in His heart for us. It corresponds to Romans 5:5 -- "The love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us". Consequent on this we love God and desire to prepare Him a habitation. The construction of the tabernacle, therefore, naturally follows the covenant.

But although God found fault with the first covenant we must not conclude that He abandoned what was enjoined therein. Every jot and tittle shall be fulfilled. It was said of the Lord that He magnified the law and made it honourable. The fact is that the essence of the first covenant is embodied in the second, only that what characterises the second is that it is all a question of what God does: "I will write"; "I will put": "I will remember no more". Hebrews 8:10, 12. In the first instance He gave the commandment to expose the heart which undertook to keep it and could not; in the second He gives not only the commandment, but also the heart to keep it. The law was in Christ's heart, now its righteous requirement is fulfilled in us by the Spirit, and in the future it will be in the hearts of God's earthly people, and written in their minds: That which is "holy, and just and good", (Romans 7:12) and that in which the renewed mind delights, and more important still, that which is a declaration of God's rights, cannot fall to the ground.

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READING IN EXODUS

Exodus 25

J.P. I suppose we might say with regard to the tabernacle that in it God reaches, in type, that which was really in His heart -- His dwelling-place among men.

J.T. I think that God takes us up as in Egypt, and relieves and delivers us by what the gospel presents: and instructs us as to the things prepared for us in our individual path. Then He, as it were, takes us aside and opens up to us what is in His heart for us, which, I think, is the idea of the covenant. This being understood, saints are prepared to be occupied with what God has before Him for His own glory. Having all your need met, and being personally in every way provided for, God would unfold His things to you, and He would expect you to enter into His thoughts; He would expect you to be in sympathy with what He has His pleasure in. This is a system of things in which He dwells and shines forth.

J.P. The very language that Jehovah uses, supports what you say "Let them make me" Exodus 25:8. It is no longer a question of the people, and any need that they might have, but, "Let them make me a sanctuary, that I may dwell among them". It is marvellous. I think we are quick enough to lay hold of that which proposes to meet our need, but we are much slower to take account of God, and lay hold of that which He has had in His heart for His own satisfaction and delight -- His dwelling-place.

I could not but think as the chapter was being read (especially verse 8 -- "Let them build me a sanctuary that I may dwell among them") of Revelation 21:3, as showing the great end that God has in view. "The tabernacle of God is with men". It

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does not say that man will dwell with God (although this is true); God says, "I will dwell with them". Exodus 25:8.

J.T. It is a very much greater thought morally that God should dwell with men, than that men should dwell with God. It is a very blessed thing to know that you are to dwell with God, but the thought of God dwelling must be greater than that of man dwelling. Anyone can see that a king, for instance, might build a house for one of his subjects to dwell in, but if it be a question of building a house for himself the house must be in accordance with himself, and so the conception of God's dwelling-place must be greater than the thought of ours, even though it he true that God's dwelling-place and ours are identical.

J.P. If you take account of the thought current amongst God's people generally, it is that at last we go to heaven to dwell with God, but that is not the way things are put in Scripture.

J.T. No, what you get in Scripture is what this chapter presents: that is, that God would dwell with men.

G.W.H. In chapter 24, you get Moses, Aaron, and the elders of Israel with God; then in this chapter it is, as it were, God with men.

J.T. "And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness. And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink". Exodus 24:10,11. That was the privilege accorded to them, but this chapter is much greater than that, because it is a question here of God dwelling.

Ques. What was God's purpose or object in condescending to dwell among men?

J.T. It shows evidently that God takes pleasure in man, but there is more than that in it: that is,

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the greatness of that in which He dwells. But dwelling can hardly be said to be for a purpose: a man dwells where his affections are. That is his home. God loves His people and they love Him, hence He dwells with them. It is most important to see that dwelling follows upon the covenant.

Ques. Does it not in a way set forth the grace of God, that He would take His place among men?

J.T. It is an act of grace, but I doubt that the point is grace, because it is His desired dwelling-place. God would not dwell among men simply to accommodate them. It is His delight. A great man might come arid honour you with a visit. It would be a condescension on his part to do that; a favour conferred upon you. It is grace for God to dwell with men, but it is not only grace: it is what He delights in.

R.S.S. Evidently David had the thought you are speaking of. In Psalm 132:1 he says: "Lord, remember David, and all his afflictions". The character of his afflictions was very remarkable: "How he sware unto the lord, and vowed unto the mighty God of Jacob; surely I will not come into the tabernacle of my house, nor go up into my bed; I will not give sleep to mine eyes, or slumber to mine eyelids, until I find out a place for the Lord, an habitation for the mighty God of Jacob". Psalm 132:2 - 5. Then God's response to it is most beautiful in the latter part: "For the Lord hath chosen Zion; he hath desired it for his habitation. This is my rest forever here will I dwell;for I have desired it".

Ques. Can you account for God's having chosen to pass by every created intelligence, and take up man?

J.T. You can only account for it by the fact that it is so. In Genesis 1:26, we get: "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness". We know

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now that it was man as seen in Christ that was before God.

Ques. I had in mind, "What is man that thou art mindful of him?" Psalm 8:4.

J.T. That question is answered in that we see that the Man who was before God was really His Son, the Second Man out of heaven. So we have no difficulty now as to why it is God has given man that wonderful place.

The initial thought in the tabernacle is separation. This is seen in Jacob at Shechem. Jehovah said to him, "Arise, go up to Bethel", (Genesis 35:1) and Jacob recalled what Bethel had been, so he said to his household, "Put away the strange gods that are among you". Genesis 35:2. They buried their idols and earrings under the oak which was by Shechem, and Jacob repaired to Bethel and there built an altar. He had carried with him for twenty years a sense of the holiness of the house of God.

G.W.H. "Holiness becometh thine house, O Lord, for ever". Psalm 93:5.

J.T. It was mournful that Jacob should have gone to Shechem, on returning from Padan-aram, for he knew where Bethel was and might have returned there. But instead he went to Shechem, where he bought a piece of ground, and then built an altar and called it "El-elohe-Israel", which means, "God, the God of Israel". He bought a piece of ground, and connected Jehovah with himself and his piece of ground. The next thing you find is that Dinah went out to see the daughters of the land. That is the inevitable accompaniment of getting a piece of ground -- you get into touch with the world. Dinah, going out to see the daughters of the land, gets into disgrace with Shechem, and her brothers, Simeon and Levi, in cruelty murder the Shechemites. All this was disastrous to Jacob. Then the word of God comes, "Arise, go up to

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Bethel". Genesis 35:1. This meant that Jacob was to turn away from the interests of his own natural heart, which had led him into ruinous contact with the world, and repair to that in which God's interests were -- His house.

J.P. Is it not wonderful how religious we become when we deviate from the path of faith? Jacob built an altar and connected the name of Jehovah with it. You see a great deal of that: people put up the altar and they connect God with their institutions here, and all that sort of thing, and really it passes very well in a great many quarters, but it is not faith.

J.T. When you come to the book of Exodus you get the same thing in relation to the establishment of the tabernacle. Although the tabernacle mentioned in chapter 33 could not be that of which Moses had received the pattern, yet he calls it "The tabernacle of the congregation" (Exodus 33:7) and separation of evil stands connected with it -- Moses pitches it "without the camp, afar off from the camp". Exodus 33:7. Moses had no command for this as far as we know, but idolatry was in the camp, and Jehovah's Name could not be connected with this. Jacob understood that idols could not be taken up to Bethel. Moses pitches that which represented the dwelling-place of God outside the camp: idolatry was there. That gives you the initial thought of the tabernacle: you could not have the dwelling place of God apart from holiness.

Ques. What would you say is the difference between our dwelling with God and God dwelling with us?

J.T. Both thoughts appear in chapter 15. The people would prepare God a habitation, and God would bring them into the habitation, which He had prepared for Himself -- "Thou shalt bring them in and plant them in the mountain of thine inheritance,

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in the place, O Lord, which thou hast made for thee to dwell in, in the sanctuary, O Lord, which thy hands have established". Exodus 15:17. I think our being brought to dwell with God is properly in the land of Canaan, but the thought of God's dwelling comes out in the tabernacle.

Rem. Many have the idea of going out of this scene, while really God's thought is to come into it and dwell with men.

J.T. By coming into this scene you would mean He comes into the sphere designed for man, and not only for man but also for the display of His glory. The tabernacle is a type of the created universe as the sphere in which God displays Himself, and from this point of view the holiest represents heaven; but the more general significance of the tabernacle is moral: that is, it prefigures a moral universe -- a universe connected with persons. In this sense the holiest is typical of Christ personally.

The tabernacle speaks of unity: it was to be "one tabernacle". Every part of the moral system in the future (the church, Israel, and the nations) will be held together by the love of Christ.

Ques. Would you say something about the second verse? "Speak unto the children of Israel, that they bring me an offering: of every man that giveth it willingly with his heart ye shall take my offering". Exodus 25:2.

J.T. I think it shows that the dwelling-place of God is the outcome of the affections of man. Those who love God wish Him to dwell with them, and would prepare Him a habitation.

G.W.H. The material for the dwelling-place would be that which the Holy Ghost produces in the saints.

J.T. It was Christ who formed the habitation for God, but this Scripture shows that the material for it was to be the outcome of the affections of the saints.

R.S.S. The connection between love in the saints

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and God dwelling with them is seen in John 14:23 "If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him".

G.H. Is Philadelphia akin to John 14?

J.T. Yes. Philadelphia keeps His word, which proves that there was love for Christ there. When the Lord said, "We will come unto him and make our abode with him", (John 14:23) He meant to convey what would be regarded as privilege by those who loved Him.

J.P. Mr. Darby renders "heave-offering" in verse 2: "Of every one whose heart prompteth him ye shall take my heave-offering". Exodus 25:2. It is the heart heaving up in responsive affection to the love of God. You are not prompted by anybody outside: the prompting is from within -- "whose heart prompteth him".

Ques. Is the Spirit of God anywhere outside of the house?

J.T. Not as actually dwelling. But we must always bear in mind that God acts sovereignly by the Spirit, as in new birth for instance. That we must leave, but there is the dwelling here of the Spirit. He is here in the church, and in no other sense.

W.H.F. Do you connect the habitation of God now, as in Ephesians 2, with the temple?

J.T. The two thoughts are there: the church is both temple and habitation. The temple suggests understanding: the habitation, love. The distinction between the house and the temple may be seen in Psalm 27:4: "That I may dwell in the house of the Lord all the days of my life, to behold the beauty of the Lord, and to enquire in his temple". The Lord was the temple when here: from Him alone the mind of God could be learnt. Now the church is the temple.

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C.H.B. Have you any thought as to the order in which the different parts of the tabernacle are presented?

J.T. The first thing mentioned and the greatest, is the ark of the covenant. It represents Christ, not as meeting man's need, but as the One by whom God effects all His counsels. "And in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee". Exodus 25:16. Christ had the law in His heart -- He was unswervingly devoted to the carrying out of the will of God. The ark, the mercy seat, and the cherubim, all of which were connected together, set forth the manner in which God in Christ has placed Himself in relation to the whole universe.

The things in the holy place refer to the earth -- Christ in relation to Israel.

W.H.F. Does gold set forth divine righteousness?

J.T. I suppose it does, and more, I judge. I take it to be typical of what is divine, but divine in Man, because all in the tabernacle refers to what came out in Christ,

R.S.S. The "head of gold" (Daniel 2:38) in Daniel's image, representing the government that was of God, would sustain that.

J.T. Yes; gold speaks of what is of God. When the priests entered the holy place and the holiest of all, what they met with engaged them with God at once. It is wonderful that you can withdraw from what is so contrary to you and enter into a sphere where everything speaks to your heart of God.

Rem. Everything human was covered up by that which is divine.

J.T. Not exactly human: the shittim wood answers to the humanity of Christ, which, as we know, was absolutely pure and heavenly in its character.

J.P. Speaking of this chapter, Exodus 25, Mr. Raven (in the pamphlet, "The Testimony of the

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Christ") said it was the greatest in the Pentateuch, because in it you have a wonderful presentation of the entire scope of God's purpose. The universe is really in view, and that by means of which God will really make it His house and fill it with all that is of Himself, and suitable to Himself that in which He will dwell.

I have been impressed with the fact that Mr. Darby's closing ministry was almost identically on the same line as that of Mr. Raven. I will take the liberty of reading from his introduction to the Bible, written as late as October, 1881, which was only a few months before his death. He says (speaking of God): "His moral being and His determinate purpose, until then eternally hidden in Himself, are, while testing man and manifesting what he is, revealed and fulfilled through the Son, that they may in their final result appear in an eternity of glory to come, in which God, surrounded by blissful creatures who know Him and understand Him, will manifest Himself as light and love in the full results of His own eternal and imperishable thoughts", etc.

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READING IN EXODUS

Exodus 28

J.P. This chapter deals with priesthood.

J.T. I think the distinction pointed out this morning is important: that is, that the things in the tabernacle represent more what is of God, and what is for the eye of man; but then there is that which is for God's eye. This chapter brings the latter forward.

J.P. It is the tabernacle of testimony.

J.T. Yes, and being the tabernacle of testimony it of necessity conveys the thought of what God would present to man, so that which meets the eye in the tabernacle refers to God Himself in the way in which He has manifested Himself in Christ. But then there is that which is for God, and the priesthood answers to that.

J.P. God says here, "That they may minister unto me". Exodus 28:41.

G.W.H. Is the thought in the priest that there is a man who responds to God fully?

J.T. Yes. There is an intelligent answer in service on the part of man to the revelation of God.

W.H.F. So we have set forth here the consecrated company -- Aaron and his sons.

J.T. Yes, and we must bear in mind that the initial thought of the priesthood is that it is to be for God. "That they may minister unto me in the priest's office". Exodus 28:41. It seems to me that is what we should keep clearly before us. There is that which God presents to us in the way of testimony, and there is that which is for God, which is the answer to it; so the priesthood is brought in here and the habiliments in which Aaron and his sons were to appear before God. All this, I think, refers to man as appearing before God in Christ and the church. There were garments made for the sons of Aaron,

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as well as for Aaron himself. The garments of Aaron differed very materially from those of his sons, nevertheless the sons had garments of glory and beauty; they were garments that were suitable for the presence of God.

J.P. I notice that while Aaron's sons are mentioned in verses 1 and 4, almost the whole chapter is occupied with Aaron and his garments. In verse 41 the sons are spoken of again: "That they may minister unto me in the priest's office".

I feel that we have been really defective as to priesthood. We have thought of our part, but I do not think the thought of what God desired for Himself, and what is really secured for Him in connection with the priesthood, has had its place before us.

J.T. It is clear that although the church has its part in the service, Christ personally is mainly before the mind of the Spirit in these types. As was said, most of the chapter is occupied with Aaron and his garments. It is Christ that is presented to us here; the garments, etc., refer to the affection and grace which manifested themselves in Him in relation to His people in the carrying out of His service before God. This includes His going into heaven, for the bells and pomegranates on Aaron's robe represent the testimony and fruitfulness seen in the saints here on earth by the Spirit, which they received from Christ as exalted. Following on this Aaron's sons appear. They are also clothed, but their garments are not so elaborate and magnificent as those of the high priest. Aaron's sons typify the members of the church as clothed by the Spirit in the beauty and grace of Christ, and appearing before God in association with Him in service.

J.P. So the end of the chapter would be what is realised now in connection with Christianity. That is to say, the Lord has gone on high, the Holy

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Ghost has come, and now there is produced in the saints that which was seen in Himself.

J.T. There was the perfect display in Christ of what was in the mind of God. This the tabernacle represents. Then the necessity for the priesthood arises, and that is the subject in this chapter. Priesthood points to Christ viewed from the side of man -- He is Man before God.

G.W.H. In the first case is He viewed as the Apostle -- that is, as coming out and establishing the system?

J.T. Quite so. All the instructions relative to the construction of the tabernacle were communicated to Moses. Aaron had nothing to do with the reception of them. As Apostle Christ is alone, but others are associated with Him in priesthood.

G.W.H. In Acts 2 they continued praising God. This was priestly service.

W.H.F. Is there a sense in which priesthood is manward? I was thinking of what we get in Peter: "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light". 1 Peter 2:9.

J.T. Yes, there is, only it is not seen here. What is seen here is ministry in connection with the tabernacle.

Ques. What would you say answers in the assembly today to the holy garments?

J.T. They represent the divine graces produced in the saints by the Spirit, which constitute them fit for the presence of God. You are not to appear in your nakedness; that is, as in the flesh. Natural ability, learning, etc., introduced into the service of God are simply human nakedness. This God refuses at every point. You need divine habiliments to appear in the presence of God, and all must be the fruit of the Spirit.

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W.H.F. The clothing is really for the eye of God.

J.T. That is the great thought in the clothing of the priest. They were for glory and beauty. The priest was to appear in the presence of God in these garments, and none other would do. In Christ the garments are seen perfectly. In Him they are not the fruit of the Spirit (although He always acted by the Spirit) they are what He is inherently, but the garments in us must be the fruit of the Holy Ghost.

Rem. Aaron appeared in the presence of God representatively for the people.

J.T. That is what the breastplate indicates. It is a great thing to get a right thought as to the garments of the high priest. They symbolise what was seen in Christ personally; and He was anointed thus, apart altogether from blood.

Ques. Would you say a word as to our title to take this place?

J.T. No one in Israel had any title to priesthood except a son of Aaron. Even if a man were a king he would not be allowed to minister as priest in the tabernacle.

J.P. The title lay in kinship with Aaron. So it does with us: "He that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one". Hebrews 2:11. It is only on that ground.

J.T. It is not simply as redeemed out of Egypt you can minister as priest. A new thought arises in connection with the tabernacle: that is, that an entirely distinct and new order of man was required for the service of God there. Hence Aaron and his sons.

W.H.F. So in order to be priests we must be of the nature of the High Priest.

Rem. God proposed that all the people should be priests. How would you say that comes in?

J.T. That does come in, but it depended on

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their keeping His covenant, but priesthood is connected with Aaron -- his sons were priests because of their relation to him, not because they kept the covenant. It is of prime importance that we should seize the thought set forth in Aaron here: he represents Christ as an entirely new order of Man clothed with every divine grace, and so infinitely acceptable in the presence of God. He is not a Priest simply on the ground of keeping the covenant; He is such in right of what He is in His own Person as Son of God. The robe all of blue signifies His heavenly origin and character. He is "the Second Man, out of heaven". 1 Corinthians 15:47.

Ques. Would you say something about the colours, etc.? We find gold, purple, blue, scarlet and fine linen in verses 5 and 6.

J.P. There is no doubt that the gold has its own significance, it speaks of what is divine. The blue would speak of what is heavenly; the purple, royalty: the scarlet, that which is glorious; and the fine linen is personal purity. "And the fine linen is the righteousnesses of the saints". Revelation 19:8.

J.T. The names of the children of Israel on the breastplate and on the shoulders of Aaron are of touching interest. Each saint is represented in the affections of our High Priest and His strength is available to us. The Urim and Thummim point to the light, or guidance, known to those who are in the intimacy of the affection suggested by the breastplate. The disciple "whom Jesus loved" and who leaned on His bosom, illustrates this. The desired information was obtained through him, John 13:23 - 26.

Ques. How do you understand, "That they die not"?

J.T. It sets forth the imperative character of God's requirements, and that these could not be met in any other than Christ. It was utterly impossible

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possible that man in the flesh could appear before God. The Aaronic priesthood viewed literally proved the utter unsuitability and weakness of the first man as serving in divine things. The spiritual significance of these types involves the complete setting aside of the literal.

J.P. The Aaronic priests were continually dying, but Christ is Priest "according to the power of an indissoluble life". Hebrews 7:16. And as "both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one", (Hebrews 2:11) you could not connect the thought of death even with the priestly company.

R.S.S. Would you not think "that they die not" conveys an idea of the greatness of the Person that is approached?

J.T. Yes. The presence of God is of such character that aside from the requirements which this demanded death would be the penalty of those who entered there, but we know that in Christ that is out of the question. The requirements are absolutely there in every way. Now that the true Priest has come in, the terribleness of man in the flesh attempting to exercise priesthood, as is the case in Christendom, is seen in its true light.

Rem. The end of Korah and his company, and Nadab and Abihu is a warning.

This applies to a person taking the place of a Christian without having the Holy Ghost. "If any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his". Romans 8:9.

J.T. It is a very solemn thing to appear in the presence of God aside from His requirements. While every believer has title to priesthood, our concern ought to be whether we have on the suitable garments.

Ques. Does that raise the question of state?

J.T. Yes, I think so. I think in approaching God in service it ought to be a very great concern as to whether we have the garments.

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J.P. The garments present more than the fact of having the Spirit. The Corinthians had the Spirit, but I do not think there was much that is priestly about them. I am sure the Galatians had the Spirit, but I do not think you could have discovered any of these garments that are detailed in this chapter which we have read in their case.

Ques. Would you say then that affection and intelligence should mark those who approach God in service?

J.P. Certainly.

G.W.H. Priesthood for us stands on the ground of resurrection then?

J.P. Certainly it does. We cannot take up priesthood in any real way in our souls on any other ground. I think we often come together with our everyday clothes on; that is, we take account of ourselves in connection with our life in flesh down here. Hence we often bring in our trials, difficulties, and circumstances. All that is a hindrance.

G.W.H. Resurrection was to be the great proof that Aaron was the true priest. The rod that budded and bore almonds was preserved in the ark as testimony to this.

J.T. Yes; resurrection is the proof of priesthood. Morally the Lord was a Priest before, but resurrection proved the inherent power of life in Him, and hence that true priesthood could belong to none other than He. But while the Aaronic order was still owned outwardly, Christ could not he priest officially, for He was not of the house of Levi. Hebrews deals with the heavenly system of things in contrast to what was instituted on earth in connection with man in the flesh, hence Christ is viewed as having gone into heaven to appear in the presence of God for us.

In appearing before God the priests were not only to be suitably attired, but they were to have their hands full of what spoke to God of the excellencies

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of Christ -- the parts of the ram of consecration, etc. This refers, I think, to our intelligent appreciation of Christ by the Spirit, as before God. But all was to be consumed on the altar for a sweet savour.

J.P. While the clothing is for the eye of God, you do not present it. It is what fills your hands you present.

Ques. On Lord's day morning if you look into your heart and find it is not filled with affection for Christ, would you stay at home?

J.T. No, I would not. It says, "Let a man examine himself and so let him eat". 1 Corinthians 11:28. Nothing must prevent your eating, for if you do not eat you will not live. If anything defiling has occurred, judge it but do not forsake the assembly. Still we should not come empty. And in coming together in assembly we should have before our minds the greatness of Him in whose presence we are -- that our offering (so to speak) might be in accordance therewith.

Ques. Do you not think that there is a great deal offered that is lame and sick?

J.T. As in Malachi's time. God says, "I am a great King". Malachi 1:14. God asserts His greatness when men make little of Him. He says, "Offer it now unto thy governor; will he be pleased with thee, or accept thy person?" Malachi 1:8.

G.W.H. You were saying that the meetings which follow during the week are connected with the morning meeting?

J.T. I think from the way things are presented in Scripture that the first day of the week is the beginning for us and all that follows during the week takes character from it.

W.H.F. I think the meeting for prayer naturally follows the Lord's day morning meeting. It is a continuation.

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J.T. "They continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers". Acts 2:42.

J.P. The prayer is very closely connected with the breaking of bread there.

Ques Would continuing in the apostles' doctrine indicate what is connected with such a meeting as this?

J .T. You feel the need of Christians being instructed in doctrine, hence you can count on the Lord's support in meetings like these. But the Lord's supper brings the saints together: then there is room for the Spirit, who ever makes Christ supreme. There will be the recognition of the headship of Christ, and the liberty of the Holy Ghost, so that there is liberty for the exercise of gift, if there is such. The Scriptures are plain as to the means of convening the assembly; the Lord being fully owned, and the order becoming the house of God. All other meetings would be according to the judgment of the saints, and we can always count on the Lord's favour and support.

R.S.S. That is exceedingly important. Where our fellow Christians miss it so much is that divine order is not owned.

,J .T. One great advantage in the recovery of the truth is that saints are able, as it were, to get things into working order, and to recognise certain channels through which light and blessing come. Unless these are recognised you do not get the light and the blessing.

G.W.H. At the close of this book all is seen complete: the tabernacle is constructed and set up according to the instructions give to Moses; then the glory fills it.

J.T. That conveys what is in God's mind: the whole creation is to be filled with the divine glory; and that is what every true believer is looking for. The believer rejoices in the hope of the glory of God.

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VARIOUS NAMES OF GOD

John 17:26

In undertaking to say a word about the Father I feel that I have to own to a very meagre apprehension of what the name signifies; but I wish that our hearts should be directed to it, in order that we might prove something of the reality of what is spoken of in the passage in chapter 14 of this gospel; that is, that the Father comes to us: He comes to those who, as loving the Lord, keep His word. The Father and the Son come to us, and make their abode with us. In what I shall have to say, however, I shall dwell largely on names under which God revealed Himself previously, with the hope that it may be seen that all the goodness and blessedness of these names are necessarily included in the name He takes in relation to Christians.

What I would say at the outset is that whatever light it may please God to vouchsafe to His people, it does not in any wise detract from light previously furnished. It rather enhances light previously given, and this is particularly seen in the names which it has pleased God, from time to time, to take with His people. God said to Abraham, "I am the Almighty God", (Genesis 17:1) and later on, speaking to Moses, He revealed Himself in a new name, "Jehovah". Now the name "Jehovah" really amplifies, or gives fulness to, the name of Almighty. In other words, I might say that in taking the name of Jehovah with His people, God proves that He is almighty, for the faithful fulfilment of His engagements with Abraham (and this is what "Jehovah" means) necessitated the power of God. The fulfilment of "the promises made to the fathers" (Romans 15:8) involves the resurrection of Christ, and it is only in this that the almighty power of God is seen. It is a very wonderful thing for us to get into our souls an understanding

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of the Almighty God. It is not that any one of us, any finite person, can compass almightiness. We are accustomed to speak of Almighty God: it is a very familiar phrase, but no finite being can compass almightiness. Even the creation of the physical universe is beyond man, and it in itself is finite. There are those who understand (or think they do), something about the universe, but no one can give you an account of how it has been brought into existence. The eternal power and divinity of God are demonstrated, it is true, in the things that are made, but God speaks about His being almighty at a subsequent date to that of the creation. Now what I would say is that you do not require to compass almightiness; it is not necessary, but the knowledge that it exists in God is the solution to all difficulties that may arise from obstacles which appear in your way, and from obstacles which might seem to prevent the accomplishment of divine counsels. The comfort that lies in the almightiness of God is that there is no power that can stand in His way. It is a wonderful thing, as I said, to know that God is almighty, and every believer needs to know it. It is a fundamental element of the knowledge of God. If He is not almighty, there is a possibility of defeat; but if God is almighty there is no possibility of defeat in the heavens or in the earth. Knowing this, the Christian is at perfect rest, for he, thereby, is in the secret that God has ability to bring to pass all His pleasure. Like Abraham, we may have individual difficulties, but the Almighty God can cope with these whatever they may be. Abraham wanted an heir; God promised him an heir; and Abraham believed that God was able to do what He promised. He was able, for Isaac was born of those who were as good as dead. Then on the other hand, we see what is in God's mind, and we are in sympathy with Him as to all being effectuated. God would make

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known what is in His mind; He took Moses up into the mount and communed with him for forty days, and gave to him a pattern of what He intended to be constructed as to His dwelling-place. It was a most wonderful thing for Moses to be taken into divine confidence in this way, and there cannot he any doubt that he was in full sympathy with the Lord in the carrying out of His thoughts. The tabernacle represented a system of things in which God would dwell and shine out; the Spirit enables us to understand all; and we have the comfort of knowing, as in the light of the resurrection of Christ, that He is "able" to bring all to pass. The almightiness of God involves resurrection from the dead, and this is the light in which all the patriarchs knew Him. It was not a question of resting on statements of Scripture with these honoured men (they did not have the Scriptures), God appeared to them as almighty: they had to do with Him in their souls, and thus they knew Him in this light, hence, although they were aware that they had to die, the knowledge of God they possessed would enable them to expect that He would raise them again. He was their God, and "He is not a God of the dead, but of the living". Matthew 22:32. We may consider Joseph as an illustration of their faith. He knew that he was going to die and his exercise was that his bones should be in the right place. He desired that they should be buried in Canaan. Why in Canaan? Egypt was an excellent burying-ground; and at that time there was greater skill there for burying, I suppose, than in any other country. Joseph could have had an excellent tomb there. He would doubtless fare with the Pharaohs in this respect. But no; Abraham had bought a burying-ground in Canaan, and there he would be buried.

God had promised Canaan to Abraham and if God were the Almighty God, and they knew that they

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were going to die, they naturally expected that God would act for them according to the principle of almightiness. His almightiness did not refer to Egypt, but to Canaan, hence Joseph's request as to his bones. Egypt may be taken to represent the burying-ground of the wicked: there is much there that speaks of the dead. The wicked dead shall be raised, but what is demonstrated in this is not exactly the almighty power of God, although He raises them. The almightiness of God speaks of His ability to effectuate His counsels of blessing. The fathers knew they had to die, but the God who had become their God was almighty (He was stronger than death), hence their part in the blessing, when introduced, was ensured. Canaan was the promised land: here the blessing would he enjoyed (see Psalm 133), so the bones of believers lie there. Joseph's were carried forty years in the wilderness; although dead, they were a living testimony to the faith of Joseph, and as such a rebuke to the unbelief which marked the camp of Israel.

With reference to Jehovah, the new name God took with Israel, God stating that He was almighty did not involve any engagement, but He made a covenant with Abraham, and in this covenant He engaged Himself to accomplish certain things for Abraham and for Abraham's seed. This is a different matter entirely. It is one thing to state certain things in regard to yourself, and it is another thing to make an engagement with another. To make an engagement with another involves that in order to vindicate yourself, you must fulfil your engagement. That is what comes out in Exodus 6. Jehovah speaks to Moses, and says He had made Himself known to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as the Almighty God; but now He would take a new name. He says, "My name, Jehovah". Exodus 6:3. He would make Himself known to Moses and to the children of Israel

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by His new name; and their deliverance from Egypt, and introduction into Canaan, were wrapped up in it. "Wherefore say unto the children of Israel, I am the Lord, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will rid you out of their bondage, and I will redeem you with a stretched-out arm, and with great judgments: and I will take you to me for a people, and I will be to you a God; and ye shall know that I am the Lord your God, which bringeth you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians. And I will bring you in unto the land, concerning the which I did swear to give it to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob and I will give it you for an heritage I am the Lord", Exodus 6:6 - 8. It was, as it were, God saying, "I am here to make good". It is a wonderful thing that it pleased God to condescend of His own accord to enter into covenant with man, and then to see Him coming down to make good what He promised. The latter is what the early chapters in Exodus present to us. God came down to make good His engagement with the people, and that is what the name "Jehovah" represented. It is God coming down to earth voluntarily in Christ, in faithfulness, to fulfil His engagements. That is what Jehovah means. Christians require to be established in the truth of God's faithfulness. The apostle had this before him in writing the second epistle to the Corinthians. God was true, and this was demonstrated in the fact that whatever promises of His there were, they were yea and amen in Christ, The Son of God, Jesus Christ, is the yea, hence God is faithful. But as I said before, this involves His power. There is really little use in engaging yourself to accomplish a certain thing unless you have the ability to do it, and so the effectuation of the promises of God demonstrates His power, as is now seen in Christ. Israel celebrated this in their song -- Exodus 15. The power of

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Jehovah was manifest in the destruction of the Egyptians and in the deliverance of the people from their hand then it goes right on to Canaan. Jehovah would bring them in and establish them in the sanctuary, which His hands had established.

Now I hope you have clearly before you the thought of the almightiness of God, and the faithfulness of God. It is with such a God that we have to do. But there is another feature of the revelation of God to Israel that I must dwell upon before passing on to the New Testament. It is mercy. This comes out in Exodus 33. Israel had broken down completely: their hearts had turned aside to idolatry, and they made the calf of gold, and said, "These be thy gods, O Israel, that brought thee up out of the land of Egypt". Exodus 32:8. Moses had been on the mount with God to receive the law and the pattern of the tabernacle, and he returned to the camp to find this sorrowful state of things, The very gold which God had requested to be given to Him as a heave-offering, by the people for the construction of the tabernacle, had already been devoted to idolatry! We may say that the very first actual giving of the people of Israel was for the purpose of idolatry. I do not know of anything more sorrowful. This refers to the affections of the saints. The effect of the Spirit's work in us is to produce response to God -- we become concerned as to His dwelling-place. God claims the affections of His people, but the offering would be as each one gave "willingly with his heart".

The state of things which Moses found in the camp of Israel on coming down from the mount corresponds fully to the present condition of Christendom; indeed, the apostle alludes directly to this in 1 Corinthians 10:7 he says, "Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink and rose up to play". It would not, perhaps, be readily admitted, but idolatry

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prevails in that which has the responsibility of being the assembly; and many who really belong to Christ have, alas! their part in this. It is a question of what is engaging the affections of people: the apostle does not mention the golden calf; he quotes, "The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play". 1 Corinthians 10:7. They were enjoying themselves in the absence of Moses, the mediator. They said, "As for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him". Exodus 32:23. The absence of him through whom the deliverance of the people had been effected was not felt, and this made room for the idolatrous conduct that followed. At the beginning, when in the bloom of first love, the church felt the absence of Christ, but this soon gave place to forgetfulness -- forgetfulness in an adulterous affiliation with the world, which resulted in her who glorified herself and lived deliciously, saying, "I sit a queen and am no widow and shall see no sorrow". Revelation 18:7. Enjoyment in connection with this state of things is idolatry. Moses heard the noise of singing, but the noise of war in such a camp would have been preferable; there was war immediately, for Moses directed that each one who was on the Lord's side should consecrate himself and slay his brother, and three thousand were slain by the sons of Levi. It was useless to introduce the pattern of the tabernacle into such a scene: as I said, that which God had expected to be given for its construction had already been devoted to idolatry; and besides, there could be no connection whatever between Jehovah's dwelling-place and an idolatrous camp. Moses took the tabernacle and pitched it without the camp, afar off from the camp. This was the act of a man who had a deep sense of what is due to God when evil is working among His people -- an act which the Lord owned fully when the cloudy pillar descended and He talked with Moses at the tabernacle door.

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Now, idolatry coming into the camp necessitated the disclosure of a new attribute in God namely, sovereign mercy. He had spoken of His power to Abraham, and of His faithfulness to Moses, but neither of these could be effective in meeting the present state of the people. God had attested both of these attributes by the deliverance of the people from Egypt, and they, notwithstanding this, had utterly broken down; it is evident, therefore, that a new principle must be introduced and, blessed be God! it was there to he introduced. This was mercy. God proclaims His name to Moses "I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy", Exodus 33:19. Israel had forfeited every claim upon Jehovah by their terrible sin, and so all was over on the ground of the covenant with Abraham: God says to Moses, "Let me alone, that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation". Exodus 32:10. He could make a great nation of Moses, but this would be but a reattestation of His almightiness; it would involve no new feature in His nature: but through the intercession of the mediator He retires into His sovereign right of mercy. I cannot dwell further upon it: I only wish to indicate how God came out step by step in the revelation of Himself. The one principle that comes out here is sovereign mercy, and it is that upon which the blessing of the Gentile rests. God is the God of the Gentiles as of the Jews, and He will have mercy upon whom He will have mercy. That is the ground upon which we stand. God claims the right to have mercy on whom He will, and who can question this right of His? How we can all thank God for His mercy! "According to his mercy he saved us", as it is said, "by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost". Titus 3:5.

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Now when we come to the New Testament it is not simply God taking certain names with His creatures, but a Man is seen here on earth in the blessed relationship of the Son with the Father. The Son, a divine Person, is here as Revealer, and so all that God is is declared. The Lord says, "I have declared unto them thy name", John 17:26. This was more than God saying He was so and so: what the name Father involves was demonstrated livingly before the eyes of the disciples by One in the infinite enjoyment of it. They saw the Lord as "an only-begotten with a father" John 1:18; and more, they witnessed in His words and works all the blessed significance of that name. He says, "I have not spoken from myself, but the Father who has sent me has himself given me commandment what I should say and what I should speak, and I know that his commandment is life eternal; what therefore I speak, as the Father hath said to me, so I speak" John 12:49,50. The gift of eternal life attests the Father's name -- it was His commandment. The great testimony in John 3 is to God's love, and this is proved by the gift of His Son to the end that the believer should not perish, but have eternal life. In John 17, the Father gives authority to the Son, that He should give eternal life to as many as the Father gave Him. If the Son is here we may look for full testimony as to God's nature. Christ going into death proves that God is love, but we must not stop there; we should go on to what is in view, that is eternal life. Chapter 4 is on the same line; the Lord says to the woman, "If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee give me to drink, thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water". John 4:10. God was being fully made known: the presence of the Son as a lonely Stranger, asking from a sinful woman a drink of water, was a proof of this. He was there in order to bring God to her poor heart;

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and did she but know this, and who He was (God Himself), who stooped so low as to ask from her, she would have asked from Him. Knowledge of the divine gift and of Him who stooped so low in order to make it available, dispels all fear from the heart and inspires confidence in the love there expressed, hence we ask. The gospel rightly presented brings God to the heart of man, and this is what we find here. John had his own peculiar way of setting forth the gospel, but he does set it forth. For him it is a question of divine Persons as such, acting "the Father has sent the Son as Saviour of the world". 1 John 4:14. The Father is not demanding, it is all gift. It were well if souls saw this clearly: when believers do see it, they ask. God's answer to our asking will be according to His gift. The Father knows how to give "good gifts", and His gift is the Holy Spirit -- He gives "the Holy Spirit to those that ask him". Luke 11:13+ It is wonderful that the blessed Spirit of God may be had for the asking. In John 4 the Lord is bringing God forward: He is giving. This poor woman had no claim on "Jehovah", for God had made no promise to the Samaritans; but God was giving, and gift does not refer to faithfulness, but to love. The gift was for man as such, and so for this poor Samaritan. The Lord says, "thou wouldest have asked of him and he would have given thee living water". John 4:10. The Son of God has been given for us, but the Spirit of God is given to us. The living water refers to the Spirit. There are many believers who have not the Spirit, and I will tell you why: they have not asked for Him. Many get the Spirit without asking for Him; but then He is to be received for the asking, and this is wonderful. God delights to give to all, but especially to those who ask; and the true mark of a man who has light as to God is that he asks -- he prays. We see this in Saul of Tarsus: the Lord encouraged

+See note on page 436.

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Ananias to go to him, saying, "Behold, he is praying". Acts 9:11. We are not told what he was praying for, but what he was to receive is striking, -- he was to receive the Holy Ghost. The message of Ananias to Saul was precious gospel to him! The gift of the Spirit is especially connected with the Father. The Lord received Him from the Father and shed Him forth.

But although possession of the Spirit attests to us the nature of God's gift, we must not content ourselves with the knowledge that we have received it: the Spirit will not engage us with Himself alone; He will work in our affections so as to direct them to the blessed source whence He came -- the Father and the Son. We must not stop short of the full thought of God for us, which is eternal life; and this is defined to be the knowledge of the Father and the Son whom He had sent. It is to be feared that the highest privileges which are accorded to us are not appreciated, nor sought after. There can be nothing higher than being introduced into the circle of divine affections. In the passage I read the Lord says, "That the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them and I in them". John 17:26. The Father's name is declared to us so that His love might be in us: this latter is by the Spirit; and if the Father's love is in our hearts, there is a place in our hearts for the Son. Many Christians are content with light and certain territory possessed, such as a "south land". Achsah, Caleb's daughter, describes a different class. She had a south land, but still wanted the blessing. She says to her father, "Give me a blessing;" "give me also springs of water". Joshua 15:19. Caleb gave her the upper springs and the nether springs. The upper springs I take to be the Father and the Son, and the nether springs would be the Spirit in the believer. These springs involve eternal life. Eternal life is God's thought for man (the "blessing"), but the Lord does not stop with

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this in His instructions to the Samaritan woman. The woman introduced the subject of worship, which afforded the Lord an opportunity to present God in this connection. God was a Spirit, and the hour was come when He should be worshipped according to His blessed nature. The "true worshippers" were now appearing who should worship the Father in spirit and in truth, for the Father sought such. God was being revealed in Jesus according to the affections of His heart, and these affections demanded a response in those upon whom they were lavished. The Father seeks worshippers. He gives the Spirit and eternal life and seeks worshippers.

May we all know God as thus revealed in Christ, and respond more fully to His blessed desires!

Note. ---- We have to note that Luke 11:1 - 13 is instruction in regard to prayer, and what accrues to us through it. The Holy Spirit is mentioned by the Lord as the Father's characteristic gift ... to those who ask Him. It is not a question of how the Spirit is given, or when, but that the Father gives such a gift to those who pray. The coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost cannot render this inapplicable to the present time, for God is still ready to give the Spirit to men on the ground of faith. We learn from Acts 8 and 19, and from practical observation, that souls may believe on Christ in this dispensation and yet not have the Spirit, hence as this wonderful Gift is available it is quite right, if one has it not, to ask for the Holy Ghost. Scripture teaches that the Holy Ghost is given to those who believe in Christ, and it also teaches that He is given to those who ask for Him. These two things do not conflict with each other.

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Pages 437 to 474 "Redemption and Life, New York, 1907" (Volume 4).

REDEMPTION

Revelation 5

J.T. We might have something that would tend to give the Lord His place in the affections of His people. The unfolding of the testimony, whatever the phase presented, involves the Lord's having a distinct place in the affections of the saints.

J.G. Does this chapter present the thought of redemption in its widest aspect?

J.T. It is the result of redemption here -- universal praise reverting to Christ the Redeemer.

W.H.F. In chapter 4 the Lord is seen as Creator -- here as Redeemer.

J.T. The chapters set forth the place the Lord shall have in the creation as quickened and redeemed -- as its Creator and Redeemer.

W.H.F. He has a claim to the universe on both grounds.

J.T. I think it would indicate the place He intends to occupy in the affections of the redeemed, and therefore in our affections; that is, if the Lord has redeemed us, He intends in that light to obtain a footing in our souls.

F.L. It would come out in connection with redemption, that the Redeemer must first have a title. It is not possible for it to be taken up by any one, but as the title exists, the Redeemer comes in to take up the title. So in connection with Israel, it is "My people" with Boaz and Ruth, Boaz had the title; the same was true in Jeremiah and redemption comes in on that ground.

R.S.S. Is redemption the first movement on the part of God toward man after the fall?

J.T. I think so. It is important to bear in mind that God has in mind in the redemption of man an entirely new order of things. His thought remains the

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same as it ever was, though the man He ultimately obtains is not the same man that He lost, nor in the same order of things.

A.R.S. I suppose the great thought is to get response from man.

J.T. And that brings in life.

R.S.S. One can see that it would be hardly worthy of God merely to restore: He must bring in a better thing.

J.P. I Suppose God had a very distinct purpose before Him even in creation, but He could not reach it in connection with man in responsibility; so now redemption comes in and God's thought is reached in another order of man. It is, "for thy pleasure".

J.T. Life belongs to God, but now all are made to live through Man. Redemption and life come through Man -- the Man Christ Jesus.

P.A.E.S. There is no thought in redemption of God waiving any of His rights, but He takes them up in mercy.

J.T. Yes, and in Man. It is a great thing for Christ to have the place designed for Him; this scene, Revelation 5, shows Him as having His place in the affections of the redeemed.

J.G. Does chapter 5 carry us further than chapter 4?

J.T. No. In both Christ is pre-eminent. Chapter 4 involves life; there are living creatures.

J.G. But He is seen only as Creator there, and here as Redeemer.

J.T. But the Creator is a very great thought. Chapter 4 presents the creation, in its four representative heads, as fully owning the rights of Christ as Creator. It is a living scene: the creatures live.

R.S.S. Would chapter 4 in any way contemplate the eternal state?

J.T. No; it is the throne of God in connection with the creation. So the rainbow appears, and a living creation is seen represented in the beasts. God is true to His covenant.

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J.P. It is a wonderful conception of the creation that all is acceptable and suitable to God, and suitable that He might have His pleasure in it.

R.S.S. In connection with creation what God had before Him was life; that was His great thought. In connection with the eternal state is it not the same thing though perhaps in a different way?

J.T. No doubt it is, but chapter 4 contemplates the millennium rather than the eternal state.

R.S.S. I simply meant a sort of analogy as to life.

J.T. That is true as to life.

J.S. Will you speak of the living creation?

J.T. It is a creation made to live by Christ. The testimony in itself will not effect anything; with the most perfect presentation, there is nothing effected. Aside from Christ, the life-giving Spirit, there is nothing subjectively accomplished. It is a wonderful thing to see Christ infusing life into the new creation. Aside from the introduction of life there is no response to God, no matter how perfect the testimony. Everything with breath is to praise Him. The testimony will not give breath, nor will the gospel. There are two thoughts in connection with life: firstly, it is potential; secondly, it is a sphere and order of things. The introduction of life by the life-giving Spirit is potential: the creation becomes active Godward; the vital principle is infused into the whole creation. Death is entire inability to answer to God. On the ground of redemption the Lord infuses life into His disciples. He says, "Receive the Holy Spirit". John 20:22.

R.S.S. That is potential?

J.T. Yes. In Ezekiel it is seen most markedly in the valley of dry bones. The prophet is sent to speak to the dry bones, but speaking does not make them live. The four winds blow and breath comes into them, so that they stand up. We must understand breath.

W.H.F. That would indicate life communicated by Christ as Head of every man.

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J.T. As last Adam. God did everything in Adam's case, Adam could do nothing. In the new order Man (Christ) does all.

A.R.S. The old creation was dead and Christ comes in and brings life. He speaks, and would you say that all who hear Him live?

J.T. Not quite so. He does not only announce life in the gospel, He infuses life.

A.R.S. What about John 5:25, hearing the voice of the Son of God: "and they that hear shalt live"?

J.T. In that chapter it is a question of the greatness of Christ. Those who hear the voice of the Son of God live -- such is the greatness of His person. Still for life there must be the transmission of the Spirit of life.

A.R.S. How is life eternal imparted?

J.T. That involves a sphere of things; it is not what we are speaking of. The Son has power to quicken; man must be made to live, to stand on his feet. After you have reached that you are put into relation with others who are standing: the boards of the tabernacle have to be regarded separately, but, as standing, they were all bound together.

A.R.S. Does the Spirit correspond to the wind in the valley of dry bones?

J.T. Yes.

J.G. God breathed into the first Adam and he lived; the Lord breathes into the disciples and says, "Receive the Holy Spirit", (John 20:22) and they live.

J.T. There is nothing for God subjectively apart from the Spirit, though there be the most perfect presentation of truth. In chapters 4 and 5 God prophetically reverts to creation and Christ is seen in connection with it as Creator and Redeemer. The Lord intends in redemption to get a footing in man's affections; we see here a redeemed creation responsive to Christ A new day dawns for every believer when he realises that Christ has a right to him. He has a right to you and every natural desire must be surrendered

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to Him. That is what redemption means. He has a right to redeem and He has done it. Job said "I know that my redeemer liveth". Job 19:25. We can go further than that; we not only know that He lives, but we know Him -- the Redeemer. You must surrender yourself to Christ -- it is a question of righteousness.

Ques Are purchase and redemption the same thing?

F.L. There is a slight difference between purchase and redemption; a liability lies on the property; an encumbrance on it, and that must be removed by the one who has the right to do it; not every one has the right. Redemption comes in as lifting liabilities. A stranger can purchase, but he cannot redeem. We must remember that the Lord bought, but He discharged all liabilities. The final effect is that Ruth is joined to Boaz.

J.T. It is a great thing for the believer to come to the point that he belongs to another. On that ground service comes in; Christ has a right to us. The Levites were taken up on the ground of redemption. A redeemed person is to hold himself for God. You are His by right of purchase. If the Lord has bought me, I must acknowledge His claim. This shuts out all other claimants, your own will and everything else.

F.L. The ear is bored though, we cannot go out. "The love of Christ constraineth us". 2 Corinthians 5:14.

J.T. But it is the Lord's title by right of redemption first; we are His absolutely. Service as thus looked at is a matter of simple righteousness. The service of sons is privilege.

F.L. Love also is found in that -- "I love my master ... I will not go out free". Exodus 21:5.

J.T. Yes. The title, however, comes first whether or not you have a good master. Then when you come under His influence, you love Him. But the point where we are weak is the point of righteousness; no

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matter what the attractions around us, we must yield. The question should be raised in every conscience.

J.P. It is a healthy moral tone to maintain in the conscience. It would do away with slipshod Christianity.

J.T. The primary idea with the believer is not voluntary. You have no right to volunteer; you are His already.

R. If we could volunteer we could boast, but now we have no right to boast.

J.P. In connection with Philemon, we see that the slave is the Lord's freed man, and the master is the Lord's bond man.

J.T. We must not think it is not open for us to offer ourselves from another side. In the early part of Numbers the Lord asserts His right to the Levite, and the Levite has no choice, but in chapter 8, the Levite offers himself. As simply redeemed we do not offer ourselves, and that fact excludes all fleshly activity, but when the Spirit has worked in us, and we offer on the ground of genuine affection, then the Lord accepts us. If you offer yourself as a man in the flesh He will not have you. Service ought to be carried on in affection, but Christ's title is the first thing and you have to submit. The consecration of the Levites supposes that they are come to years. This means in our case that we have come to maturity by the work of the Spirit. The Levites were to be twenty-five or thirty years of age when entering on their service.

F.L. In Romans 6 service is in connection with righteousness. This leads to holiness and eternal life.

J.T. You recognise the will of Christ, and none other. His will must prevail. "If I will that he tarry till I come", etc. John 21:22. The will of Christ prevails. In Numbers, male Levites of all grades, from a month and upwards, are taken account of by God and held for service, but to take up service and carry it into effect depends on the Spirit.

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F.L. You would guard (and have guarded in your remarks) that there is the spontaneous service which is the outcome of a delighted heart: "Let my son go that he may serve me". Exodus 4:23. We do not lose sight of that.

J.T. No, that is the only service which is really acceptable; service should be carried on in love.

A.R.S. How would you explain that scripture in Isaiah, "Who will go?" and the prophet answers "Here am I; send me"? Isaiah 6:8. That looks like a volunteer.

J.T. That is all right provided you primarily recognise the claim of Christ to you. "What wilt thou have me to do?" Acts 9:6. There is the full recognition of the claims of Christ over your soul. In this country any man who is of age may volunteer to enter the army, but in others it would be entirely out of place to volunteer, because there is a question of legal obligation. The Lord does accept the voluntary service of love; the Lord will never spurn affection, never; that is what He appreciates. He does not assert His right over you when you have affection for Him, but He does when you do your own will. In Christ's kingdom His authority is absolute. The principle of man's government admits of lawlessness. If the Lord were king He would assert His right over every subject.

Ques. Is the chief end in redemption, service?

J.T. No; it is that the Lord should have His place in the hearts of His own; as the Lord is rightly known as Redeemer He gets His praise from us.

Ques. What does service consist of?

J.T. It is primarily connected with the sanctuary; the Levite stands in that connection. He was in connection with the tabernacle.

Ques. I suppose you must be in the light of priesthood to understand Levitical service?

J.T. Levitical service depends on priesthood. Service as Levites depends on an inward spiritual state.

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LIFE

Ezekiel 37:1 - 14 John 20:19 - 23

R.S.S. What is the connection between redemption as we had it this morning, and life as we have it in the scriptures read?

J.T. Redemption is that in which the soul apprehends Christ first; and the Lord is to have a place in our affections as Redeemer. I think the chapter read this morning (Revelation 5) shews clearly the place He is to have in that character. He is seen in the midst of the throne as a Lamb slain, and then there is the celebration, on the part of the redeemed, of Him as the Redeemer. But redemption is not all that is necessary; we require to live. The Lord is to be known to our souls as the life-giver, which I think is the point of view in John's gospel. Man's state not only involves the need of redemption; the vital principle has to be introduced. This is not only needed because the sentence of death was upon man, but because of man s weakness; he is incapable of any movement toward God.

F.L. So in John 5 we get the man who had been impotent for thirty-eight years made well, so that he carries his bed. "The dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and they that hear shall live". John 5:25.

J.T. I think that man serves to illustrate what is in view in this respect in John; it is a state of impotency in man. No vitality, no energy there: so that we require to see that the Lord is the life-giving Spirit. He makes us to live in the sense that we have power to walk and praise God.

W.L.P. That comes with the Spirit?

J.T. It is the Spirit in that way. It is not the Spirit as presented in Acts 2, coming in a collective way; it is the Spirit given to each individual by Christ; the imparting of life to the individual.

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F.L. As seen in John 20:22, "He breathed on them and saith ... Receive ye the Holy Spirit".

J.T. John 20 is pattern; the Lord is seen as He who infuses life into the creation. What is to become universal takes place in that upper room. He is there as the beginning of God's creation.

J.P. He acts formally there as the last Adam, the life-giving Spirit. Do I understand that what you had in your mind was that the Lord must have His place in our hearts -- that we must know him not only as Redeemer and come to own His rights in that way, but also as the life-giver?

J.T. I think believers have to see that the gospel in itself, however clearly presented and understood, imparts nothing to us. There has to be an individual transaction with Christ.

W.H.F. Would Matthew 25 illustrate that? The foolish virgins had no oil, and wanted it from the wise. The wise ones declined to give it to them, for fear that they themselves should not have enough; they told them to go to those that sold, and buy for themselves, and while they were gone the bridegroom came, and the wise virgins went in with him and the foolish ones were shut out.

J.T. They might have got oil from the Lord.

J.P. Will you say a little in regard to the necessity of preaching the gospel? If the gospel is not that which confers life, what is the necessity of preaching it?

J.T. Preaching the gospel is necessary in order to attract men to the source of it.

Ques. "How shall they hear without a preacher?" Romans 10:14.

J.T. Men get enlightened as to the source; and the effect of the gospel rightly understood is that it produces confidence. So that you turn to the One who gives.

F.L. Life and incorruptibility have come to light through the gospel, but it does not impart life.

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J.P. The gospel comes in "to open their eyes, that they may turn from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God". Acts 26:18.

J.T. The effect is that you turn to God. The great thing is for people to go to God. I have not any hesitation about advising people to go to God in prayer, entirely irrespective of their state. Whatever your state or history may be, God will hear you. Pray to Him for what you need. I refer, of course, to such needs as men are conscious of who feel after God. I would ask God for anything at all that I felt the need of in my relation to Him.

J.P. Would you tell anybody to ask of God?

J.T. The gospel is that which induces belief, because it brings to the heart of man that God is good and compassionate.

J.G. John 4 shews that: the woman gets light and then asks, "Sir, give me this water". John 4:15.

J.T. Christ was there on the part of God; God was giving. God has intervened for man's deliverance and salvation. If a man is enlightened, his soul is put into touch with God. Not that he gets salvation at that instant; but he is put into touch with God. God is the giver.

J.G. Having light from God as to what He gives, you then turn to God for it?

J.T. I think turning to God involves that. You have needs in your soul, and you are conscious that the Author of the gospel is the One to turn to in regard to them. I think it is a point of the greatest importance that believers should accustom themselves to asking of God.

Ques. Do you think the soul is affected apart from the gospel?

J.T. The new birth takes place apart from the gospel.

Ques The soul might turn to God before it hears the gospel?

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J.T. I do not think so. Because you cannot turn to Him if you do not hear about Him. The gospel brings to your soul what God is; the Giver of Christ to accomplish redemption, and the Giver of the Spirit.

J.P. 1 Thessalonians shows what the effect of the gospel is when it is received. The apostle relates how the gospel was preached to them and they turned to God from idols.

P.A.E.S. The Spirit of God brought the gospel home to their souls, and they got the blessing?

J.T. Aside from new birth, men do not value the blessing.

F.L. Unless there has been that divine operation, men cannot appreciate it: they cannot discern it, and they cannot enter into it.

Do you take Ezekiel 37, as given in connection with the Israel of the coming day, as being a figure of the whole work of God in imparting life to them and bringing them into the sphere of resurrection?

J.T. Yes; and I think the chapter might be taken to indicate how every soul is brought into life.

F.L. There is a moving of what is in death and corruption, and there is a proclamation to it, and there is a stir brought about, but the imparting of life is separate.

J.T. That was in connection with the "breath". The sinews, flesh, etc., came upon them, "but there was no breath in them". Ezekiel 37:8. Then Ezekiel prophesied to the wind, and breath came into them, and the bones lived, and stood upon their feet, an exceeding great army. Man needs the vital element and this Christ gives.

R.S.S. Where does new birth come in here?

J.T. You might connect it with the bones taking form and the sinews and the flesh coming upon them. What is in view is the bringing of Israel into life and that nothing of the nation is lost, for the bones represented

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the whole house of Israel. God's thought in regard to Israel is secured through resurrection.

F.L. I suppose the moral exercises of Israel which answer to new birth you get in other connections. Ezekiel 37 was simply getting the point of view from God's side -- that absolutely nothing is lost; it is the complete Israel secured in life. God brings them out of their graves and causes them to live.

J.T. John 20 coincides with this in principle. What the Lord did to the disciples in breathing into them, He will do in a universal way in the future.

F.L. The death of Christ had really put them apart in that upper room; they were outside the whole course of things in the world. The world knew nothing of them and took no account of them. The Lord comes in upon them as the last Adam and imparts the Spirit of life; it is the beginning of the creation of God.

J.T. That is just what it is. He had accomplished redemption, and now He is free, and so He breathes into the disciples that which will pervade all in the future -- the breath of life.

F.L. So that in time we see now set forth that which will become universal.

J.T. The Lord is not only able to take up the right to redeem; He is able to introduce life into the scene. The Psalmist pleads for the praise of Jehovah, but what we see in Christ is that He brings in that which is responsive to Jehovah; that is to say, He gives the breath -- "Let everything that has breath praise Jehovah". Psalm 150:6. There must be the breath, or there will be no praise for God.

W.L.P. Would you connect this with Genesis 1?

J.T. What I think comes out in Genesis is that God as such creates everything. "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth;" (Genesis 1:1) and then out of a chaotic state He brings the present physical order of things. Adam had nothing to do with all this; he was placed in connection with it, but was himself

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a creature; he was, however, a figure of Him that was to come. But the coming One does not take up His place in creation simply; He brings in a creation. Christ brings in a creation; Adam could not do that. In John 20, Christ begins the creation of God. Into that circle the breath of life was introduced, and as a result there was praise. "In the midst of the congregation will I praise thee". Psalm 22:22.

F.L. After Christ's resurrection, the graves were opened and many bodies of the saints which slept arose and came out of their graves and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. That, I take it, was a witness of the greatness of the Person of Christ, and was a testimony given to many in the holy city. It was adequate testimony to what was prophesied in Ezekiel.

Ques Does the fact of a soul being redeemed give it life?

J.T. No. Redemption comes in the way of light as to what God has effected in Christ apart from us altogether; life is consequent on this, and is received from Christ in a subjective way.

P.A.E.S. He prophesies to the wind and then the breath comes.

J.P. It is very distinct. The breath came into them and they lived.

J.T. I take it that, the vessel being formed for the reception of the Spirit, He enters into it. Those in the upper room had been formed -- the sinews and the flesh had come upon them; then the Lord breathes on them, saying, "Receive ye the Holy Spirit". John 20:22.

R.S.S. As in Genesis 2, man was formed of the dust of the earth, and God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and the man became a living soul.

J.T. The order is the same.

F.L. In 1 Corinthians 15 emphasis is laid upon resurrection, and so here: "Ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O my

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people, and brought you up out of your graves, and shalt put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land then shall ye know that I the Lord have spoken it, and performed it, saith the Lord". Ezekiel 37:13,14. After the Lord's resurrection, He brings the saints out of their graves -- they know that He is the Lord.

J.T. J suppose Israel at the present time are in their graves; that is, the nations have become, in a way, the grave of Israel. They not only require the graves opened, but they are to be made to live.

A.R.S. Does this not coincide with Daniel 12?

J.T. There they awake to "everlasting life". But I should like to keep to what is in view here; that is, the question of the vital principle to be introduced into man.

J.S. It is only as receiving the Spirit (the "breath") that they were able to stand up on their feet and walk.

J .T. Therefore in this chapter the point is not eternal life, but life as power -- that by which we stand up and walk.

J.P. If anything answers to eternal life here it is this: "I shall place you in your own land". Ezekiel 37:14.

R.S.S. I think you said this morning that life is presented in two ways: potentially, and also in regard to a sphere. What you are looking at now is the first.

J.T. What each individual has to receive from Christ is the vital principle, not exactly the Holy Spirit as given to the church; but the Holy Spirit as given to the individual believer.

F.L. When you say potentially, of course you speak of life as a matter of power?

J.T. Yes, as in verse 10 "So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood upon their feet, an exceeding great army". Ezekiel 37:10. Life as a matter of enjoyment is a different thing; it is not a question of power only, but that you are at ease in the calm enjoyment of

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God's favour. But what precedes that is the getting of power.

Ques. The man in Acts 3?

J.T. Yes. He walked and leaped.

J.G. Again, in John 5 the man lay there thirty-eight years in view of God's provision and could not make use of it. The man had no ability.

J.T. I think that apart from life in a potential sense eternal life could not be touched by us.

W.H.F. "The law of the Spirit of life" (Romans 8:2); can this be connected with it?

J.T. Yes. The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus sets free from the law of sin and death. In result, God receives glory from man: everything that hath breath praises. There is no breath in the natural man; there is no breath in what we see around us -- the organ in the church and the choir. It is all dead. The Lord is ready at any time to give the Spirit. You cannot praise God without breath.

Ques. Is it not that which we get in Psalm 22:3 "But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel"?

J.T. Yes; God inhabits the praise of His people. But every individual has to do with God. "Let every thing that hath breath praise the Lord". Psalm 150:6.

F.L. Your point, as I understand it, is a very simple one. Dead in trespasses and sins describes the actual condition of man, and, as such, he has nothing to say to God, and has no knowledge; anything vital towards God is an impossibility. It is a state of death, and if there is to be a vital energy -- life -- it must come from Christ; and you cannot respond to God until life is imparted; and when life is imparted to you you become a "living soul" in the true sense of the word.

J.T. Yes. In receiving the Spirit from Christ, you receive that which is in itself life. "The Spirit is life, because of righteousness". Romans 8:10. But the possession of the

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Spirit in itself will not do: there must be the formative work of the Spirit. But there are many believers who have not the Spirit.

F.L. What about the woman in John 4:10, "If thou knewest the gift of God", etc.?

J.T. The living water and the Spirit of life both refer to the Holy Spirit. Living water is different from the Spirit of life however. What a dead man requires is life; what a thirsty man requires is water. The woman had drunk deep into the pleasures of this world, but they had not satisfied her; she was thirsty. Christ gives living water.

J.G. She says, "Give me this water, that I thirst not". John 4:15.

R.S.S. Is that a further thought than the first?

J.T. The first really is that God would secure His thought in man. Man is really incapable of answering to God, because he has no vitality, and the Lord Jesus introduces vitality, so that God should secure what He has in His mind with regard to man. But there is the need of souls, and John 4 gives that side. The giving of the Spirit of life is that which insures response to God in a redeemed creation throughout eternity. The living water meets the thirst of man, and it springs up into everlasting life. The Spirit takes possession of the affections of the believer and so controls them that they are directed into new channels. These lead to life eternal.

C.H.B. With that water, she would never thirst again.

J.T. She had no conception then of what the Lord was speaking about. Where He puts Himself in moral contact with her is when He says, "Thou hast had five husbands". John 4:18. As regards the gift of God -- she knew nothing of God.

C.H.B. In giving her of the living water, she found the source in which she did not need to take the springs of the world.

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J.T. She had no conception whatever of what the Lord was speaking about; but He knew what He was speaking about, and it is recorded for our instruction. She did not say anything in the city about the living water; she said, "Come, see a man which told me all things that ever I did: is not this the Christ?" John 4:29. John 20 is the beginning of God's creation. Christ infuses life into a creation which is to remain and in which God secures all His thoughts.

J.S. John 4 is a different presentation.

Ques. You find numbers of people -- saints -- who are fully persuaded in their minds that they can get no enjoyment in this world, and they have inward enjoyment in the Lord Himself and are quite happy in the Lord; but when it comes to really praising the Lord and coming into the banqueting house, and all that, you find they have not got far; they are not able to praise the Lord. What is the matter?

J.T. If they do not know what is the matter with them, it would be a very good thing for them to turn to the Lord.

Rem. They have prayed, but do not seem to make progress in worship.

J.T. If they are really exercised, they will make progress. If there is a genuine exercise and turning to God, I am perfectly certain that the soul will get on. I never knew it to fail. We should turn to God in prayer about all our difficulties.

R.S.S. I imagine that the man who is conscious of his ignorance is on a very good road to receive blessing. And the people who are conscious of their inability to praise God will get help in that line if they look to Him as to it.

C.H.B. Do all believers have to ask for the Spirit?

J.T. No. The Spirit is given on the part of Christ to believers, but I am inclined to believe that a normal effect of the gospel coming to the soul is that the

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person -- I am not speaking now of any formal way, but in the heart -- turns to God. You turn to God; you feel that He is your only hope. When light comes to a man it makes him very serious; he feels a great many wants, and he turns to God.

Ques. You said many believers have not the Spirit. Will you make it a little more plain? What kind of believers would they be?

J.T. The result of bad teaching and the like. I would say that they were the Lord's; they have light, but there is no vitality: they are not different from other people in their movements.

P.A.E.S. What do you make of that in Ephesians 1:13?

J.T. That was a statement of a fact: "After that ye believed ... ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise".

F.L. What scriptures do you give as to praying for the Spirit?

J.T. John 4 and Luke 11. I would cite the effect of the light of God in the heart of man: it produces confidence in God, so that he asks Him for anything he needs,

C.H.B. It would not he praying for the outpouring of the Spirit, would it?

J.T. No. The Spirit is here, and as here He is available for man, and is God's gift to man.

Rem. In Christendom He is simply regarded as an influence, and I was wondering whether you were thinking of people in Christendom.

J.T. I think there are many amongst us, breaking bread, who have not the Spirit.

F.L. They may enjoy forgiveness of sins, but they have never yet learned of the Holy Spirit as a Person, as the gift of God in that way; and so like those at Ephesus, they have not yet received the Spirit. I think I would go as far as this, that I see that through

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defective or insufficient presentation of the gospel there were, clearly, souls that had not the Spirit; and I am inclined to think that where a soul is in the same conditions, the same thing would be true now. But where there is evidence of a work of God in the soul I would not undertake to say that man has not the Spirit.

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ETERNAL LIFE

Psalm 133

J.T. The thought I had before me was of eternal life. I felt that the line of things we have been dwelling on ends in that.

F.L. That is, we have looked at life as in the believer, but eternal life is a particular character of life. It involves a sphere.

J.P. Yesterday you used the word "infused"; the thought of life in that connection is subjective.

J.T. Yes, I think that is an important distinction. First of all, life is introduced into the believer, a vital element or principle, but eternal life is that into which he may be said to be introduced.

R.S.S. Life is introduced by the reception of the Spirit.

J.T. Yes, Ezekiel 37 teaches that side. The people of Israel are made to live and unity follows. Judah and Joseph become one. This is contemplated in Psalm 133.

W.L.P. What is the force of eternal life? Is life itself not eternal?

J.T. It is, and we are eternal as made to live. Eternal life is an order of blessing which depends on certain conditions, and these conditions are established in Christ as risen from the dead. But it is not only that Christ is risen, but by His quickening power He brings men into life here on earth and puts them together so as to form a moral sphere where life for evermore is, so to say, "commanded". According to Matthew 25 the nations shall go into eternal life. That into which they go must be there before they can go into it. My understanding of the subject is that Israel as made to live, according to Ezekiel 37, will be the sphere of it.

F.L. Life communicated from God is in its nature eternal in duration, but life itself is not what scripture

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calls eternal life -- scripture must define its own meaning; the dictionary does not help us there.

R.S.S. That is, a certain character of life is implied by the word "eternal".

J.T. And it is definitely called blessing: "There the Lord commandeth the blessing, even life for evermore". Psalm 133:3. If you follow scripture the thought of blessing carries you back to Abraham, to whom God said "In thee shall all nations of the earth be blessed". Genesis 18:18. It is in Isaac (Christ risen) that the blessing is secured. Christ as having died and risen brings the order of things to pass here in which the blessing is realised. So Psalm 133 comes in after the two sticks in Ezekiel have been put together; then comes the crown of it all -- life for evermore.

J.P. In Psalm 21:4 there is mention of eternal life; "length of days for ever and ever", but that is in connection with Christ personally. Psalm 133 is the first time it is mentioned in connection with others.

J.T. It is the first time it comes in as a definite thought.

F.L. I take it that the well-instructed Jews looked for eternal life as something that had been promised -- for example, the young man said, "What shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?" (Mark 10:17) and the Lord said to the Pharisees, "Ye search the scriptures, for ye think that in them ye have life eternal". John 5:39. They looked for it with definite expectation.

J.T. I am sure of it, but they never could have had the right thought of what it was -- that the Lord would take up a company, form them with flesh and sinews upon them, make them stand on their feet, put them together, and breathe life into them, and so make them a sphere where eternal life should be realised. The knowledge of the Father and the Son is in this sphere.

S.F. There is a distinction between the breathing

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on the disciples in John 20 and the coming of the Spirit at Pentecost: on the day of Pentecost unity is promised.

J.T. Yes, and in a sense the blessing was commanded which was foreshadowed in Ezekiel 37. Ezekiel refers to an eternal scene. Israel will be taken up and set in their own land and the blessing commanded, but the blessing will not be for themselves only; they will have the good of it, but the blessing will be there for others also. This will be literally true in Israel in the future.

W.L.P. What is the force of "There the Lord commanded"? Psalm 133:3.

J.T. The blessing is from God, "commanded" by Him, but I do not think it is understood what conditions are required before the blessing can he commanded. It has ever been in God's purpose and it was brought to light by Christ, but it depends on certain conditions. This in no way conflicts with the truth that Christ is eternal life, for He established the conditions, and apart from Him it does not exist. Scripture teaches that eternal life here on earth depends on certain conditions, and no such conditions are found in man after the flesh divine power brings them in, and then God commands the blessing.

W.H.F. Eternal life now implies a sphere for us?

J.T. Yes. If we could get a company of people such as Acts 2 presents, we should have the conditions in which eternal life, as it is to be known at the present time, is realised.

W.H.F. And enjoying it you are in the sphere where divine Persons are known. "That they might know thee the only true God", John 17:3. Christ as the last Adam (a life-giving Spirit) has not been properly laid hold of; and I feel it would be helpful to get an apprehension of Him in this light at the present time.

J.T. In the future God will bring the tribes of Israel into life; He will make them live, and put

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them together to form the conditions under which the blessing is commanded.

Ques. Would you say that in the day when eternal life is displayed one condition is that death is removed?

J.T. Death is removed because they are seen as taken out of their graves. "He will swallow up death in victory", Isaiah 25:8.

Ques Where is eternal life realised today?

J.T. Christ is eternal life, but the realisation of it, as we have been saying, is, in scripture, made to depend on certain conditions. The conditions are found among those who are made to live by the quickening power of Christ. It is most interesting to revert to the dealings of God with Israel prior to this. In the Songs of Degrees you trace the effect of the light of God on the remnant, step by step, until a place is reached where the ark can rest. The work of God is not effectual in them till Christ finally obtains a place in their affections. In Revelation 7 they are marked off by God and sealed, but later they are not only sealed, but they are with the Lamb on Mount Zion. He now has a place in their affections.

Ques. Then you must first see God's conditions before you can get to the other side?

J.T. Yes; Christ has authority over all flesh that He should give eternal life to as many as the Father gives Him. The Gentiles get the blessing from Christ, and enjoy it in Him. They come into the benefit of Israel's exercises and sorrows, but they do not go through the same themselves. The blessing is not commanded in connection with the Gentiles, but with Israel -- on Mount Zion. What the Gentiles enter into shall be already there in Israel. God forms Israel in a special way, evidently, because the blessing which He has designed for the nations is to be realised in connection with them.

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R.S.S. The Lord Himself passed through their sorrows when here.

J.T. Yes, and the disciples also, in a measure. They were with the Lord in Gethsemane. So we see in them what is analogous to the suffering remnant of Israel in the future. The blessing in its present form was seen in them at the beginning. Eternal life was obtained through faith in Christ, but the realisation of it involved that the believer entered into a sphere where the conditions of life obtained. He passed out of death, the world of hatred, into life, the world of love. The proof of this to himself was that he loved the brethren. 1 John 3:14.

Another thing that is of immense importance in connection with the scripture before us is the subject of dwelling. This is consequent upon unity. In Ezekiel 37 unity follows upon life, and then dwelling. God says, "my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore". Ezekiel 37:26. This accords with Psalm 132.

J.P. The expression in Psalm 132:13,14 is very beautiful: "For the Lord hath chosen Zion; he hath desired it for his habitation. This is my rest for ever here I will dwell; for I have desired it".

J.T. In the Old Testament it is not so easy to see the connection with the assembly, but it has to be admitted that, although the assembly has more in the way of privilege than Zion shall have, yet the former possesses all that is distinctive of the latter. There is nothing plainer in the New Testament than that the assembly is the dwelling-place of God, and hence all the blessing that flows from this is realised in it.

Rem. So that really eternal life is to live in the love of God.

J.T. Psalm 133 shews what shall mark the tribes of Israel in the future -- that is, they shall dwell together in unity. It speaks not only of the unity, but of the goodness and pleasantness of it. Note that it speaks not alone of brethren being united, but of

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their dwelling in unity. It speaks of what this is like. "It is like very great and precious things. It is like the precious ointment upon the head, that ran down upon the beard, even Aaron's beard: that went down to the skirts of his garments". Psalm 133:2. That is, it is like Christ Jesus in heaven giving the Spirit to His people here on earth. This wonderful likeness may be seen in a few brethren, as well as in a great number.

Ques. Is the ointment in connection with the testimony?

J.T. Yes, it is seen externally, the dwelling together in unity is good and pleasant to look on. It is of the Spirit, because it is like the Spirit in its largest aspect, coming from the true Aaron in heaven; the dwelling together in unity is like that; no matter how small it is, it is like the precious ointment. Ointment is to make one shine: it is not taken internally. Living water is taken internally, and breath is infused within, but the ointment is on the head. There was no need to raise the question as to the doctrine of the Spirit in Acts, because their faces shone. The testimony to His presence was undeniable.

J.P. Nor the question of salvation, because the ointment was seen on the skirts of the garment.

J.T. They were clothed with that. "I will clothe her priests with salvation". Psalm 132:16. The need for the doctrines at the beginning was not so apparent; in the later epistles they were put into form in view of the waning of life among the saints, but at the beginning people wore salvation as clothes, and the Spirit was externally manifested. All comes out in Acts; all things foreshadowed as to Israel in the future found their answer in the saints at the beginning.

R.S.S. What about the dew of Hermon?

J.T. It suggests something very great; the beneficent influence of Christ. Falling on the mountains

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of Zion, it would point to the Spirit in another way.

F.L. That is the source of fruitfulness.

J.T. Exactly; so that there is not only the shining, but also what is for God.

W.H.F. There is no responsibility connected with the conditions of life.

J.T. No; God brings them to pass that blessing might be available. He had promised the blessing to Abraham, now He is making it good. It might be said that the blessing of Abraham has arrived at the nations in Christ Jesus, and it has; it cannot be dissociated from Him; but that is not incompatible with the teaching of this psalm, that the existence of eternal life is connected with certain conditions.

F.L. Eternal life is in contrast with life in the garden of Eden. That was a sphere of life, but it could be interfered with, and it ended: eternal life is established in Christ risen, and is wholly apart from life here, the question of death having nothing to say to it; and it is God's answer as showing the beauty and energy of life in the very sphere where transgression and death have been. It is essentially blessing, and it cannot be touched by death.

J.T. Yes. It is a wonderful thing to see Israel, so grasping after things as they are now, thus converted, and formed of God that they become a channel of blessing to the nations.

F.L. Eternal life has been narrowed down by many to an unending existence of happiness in heaven, but going to heaven is not in view here. Another genuine difficulty is that this view of eternal life does not seem to be sufficiently connected with the Person of Christ. Scripture says, "He is the true God, and eternal life". 1 John 5:20. There is a fear lest the thought of eternal life be divorced from the Person of Christ.

J.T. Yes. I think the difficulties which exist are largely attributable to the fact that the conditions we

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have been speaking of are not manifest at the present time.

F.L. It involves serious exercises as to whether each one is up to it.

J.T. My own exercise has been not only that souls do not seem desirous of entering into eternal life, but that the conditions necessary to it are not apparent. If we were more acquainted with the conditions which existed at the outset, we should not have so much difficulty.

F.L. We see the assembly at its best in Acts, and there we get light as to what will be by-and-by. If we can see what eternal life will be in the world to come, perhaps we can work back to what it should be today.

J.T. It is seen as it will be in this psalm: first, you must have brethren. These are brought into being by Christ -- that is, He has breathed into them. The Spirit being here we may presume there are those among us who live; there are brethren; if so it should be a matter of profound exercise to each one as to whether we are dwelling together in unity. The conditions of life are found where such unity is. If you are part of that you do not miss the blessing yourself, but you help to form a sphere to bring blessing to others. "Using diligence to keep the unity of the Spirit in the uniting bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit, as ye have been also called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in us all", Ephesians 4:3 - 6. That is God's thought for us.

F.L. And it is never dissociated from divine Persons.

J.T. They dwell there. The sphere has to be taken account of by itself, but the very conditions we have mentioned involve the presence of God. "He that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him". 1 John 4:16.

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The blessing is consequent on the presence of divine Persons.

F.L. It is characteristic of eternal life that God gives it.

J.T. It is a wonderful thing that God should take us up, as He will take the Jews, (greedy and grasping people though they are in the world today), and form them into a people who love one another: He does that with us too, who were hateful and hating. He makes us love one another.

J.P. In brethren dwelling together in unity the conditions are found, whether the numbers be small or large.

J.T. Each one should see to it that we are dwelling together in unity.

R.S.S. How would you explain "Lay hold of eternal life"? 1 Timothy 6:12.

J.T. It is inward energy exercised to enjoy as a present possession what you see to be yours by God's gift. The passage adds, "to which thou hast been called". 1 Timothy 6:12.

F.L. "Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap", and "he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting". Galatians 6:7,8. It is clear that the thing is available and the way of it is to keep the flesh under, and to give place to the Spirit.

J.P. It is rather remarkable that the trouble, as to eternal life, in 1890 began in 1888 at Witney, when J.B.S. and F.E.R. took up the question of the conditions; that was the whole point.

Ques Has eternal life to do only with the earth?

J.T. It would so appear. God would introduce it where death has been. "In the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die", (Genesis 2:17) was the word to Adam, and he ate and died. It is a question of God reaching

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His end where apparently He has been defeated. He revives man and revives Israel.

F.L. He vindicates Himself and brings in life where death has been; that is not heaven.

J.P. "The wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life". Romans 6:23. That is the scripture that helped me.

Ques. While it is on earth, yet it has a heavenly character, I suppose?

J.T. It is life in a Man out of death, but that Man is out of heaven. All that attaches to that Man is distinctly heavenly -- all is tinged with "blue".

F.L. J.N.D. spoke of that "out-of-the-world heavenly condition of relationship and being in which eternal life consists".

J.T. We are already made to live, but we have also a heavenly portion which has nothing to do with God's testimony as regards the earth. Here there had been apparent defeat through sin and death, but God has formed a righteous way of setting up man in life on earth. This is God's victory. In sovereignty God has made Israel the centre of His counsels in Christ in regard to the earth, and so eternal life is seen in connection with them, but it is for all nations.

F.L. I should say that wherever there is the manifest testimony of the Holy Spirit in anointing and in fruitfulness to God, there is the evidence of eternal life.

J.T. Quite so; God is maintaining now in the assembly what He intends to bring out finally in Israel on earth.

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"WHOM SAY YE THAT I AM?"

LUKE 9:18 - 36; John 3:27 - 29; REVELATION 21:9 - 11

What has impressed me whilst we have been together is that the Lord would, on occasions like the present, appeal to the affections of His people. He would endeavour to have the affections of His people aroused, and this is brought to pass by the presentation of Himself to us by the ministry of the Spirit. I think that was exactly what He had in view in raising this question with the disciples as to Himself, as to who He was.

In Matthew, you may recall, Peter's confession was that He was the Christ, the Son of the living God; Mark, on the other hand, records that Peter's reply to Christ was that He was the Christ -- "Thou art the Christ", (Mark 8:29) he says. But in Luke we have recorded that Peter's reply was, "Thou art the Christ of God". Luke 9:20. Now it is just because of that that I have felt encouraged to bring Luke's account of this incident to your attention. It may appear that Peter's confession in Matthew involves more the truth of Christ's Person, but my impression is, that the truth of Christ's Person is not exactly the point in Matthew.

Matthew's account has in view the establishment of that which would be invulnerable down here in relation to the testimony, and what is stated as to the Lord's Person is in this connection. The testimony had been connected with Israel, and the presence of Christ in the midst of Israel brought to light their utter inability to maintain the testimony of God. Christ was the embodiment of the testimony, and He found no place whatever amongst them; and there could not be more convincing evidence that Israel was utterly incapable of being the vessel of the testimony of God. Therefore, I apprehend that the object in view in the account given to us in Matthew, of Peter's confession, is to bring to light One who had ability to establish

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that upon earth against which the gates of hades could not prevail; and this should supersede Israel in the maintenance of what is of God, and the administration of divine things. According to Matthew, Peter says, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God". Matthew 16:16. The Lord answers, "Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it". Matthew 16:17,18. He is capable of building that which would stand against the attacks of the enemy. He is capable of such a thing, and none could be but He who is the Son of the living God.

Now in Mark the record of the incident has another object in view. There Peter says, "Thou art the Christ". Mark 9:29. That, I think, is in perfect keeping with Mark's line. Mark's gospel has the testimony in view, Christ is the vessel of the testimony. It was a great thing that He should be recognised by the disciples in this light. The Christ would be the resource of God when all else should fail. So that, in Mark, when the Lord probes the disciples as to what their estimate of Him is, they say that He is the Christ. It was a very great conclusion to come to at that time.

When we come to Luke, what is in view is the intervention of God for the deliverance and blessing of humanity. That is what Luke is engaged with by the Spirit. He relates to us certain features of the Lord's life and ministry which set forth the fact that God had intervened for the deliverance and blessing of man. So that, in chapter 4, He stands forth as the anointed Vessel not there exactly as the vessel of the testimony, but as the vessel of divine grace to man, so that, they marvel at the words of grace that proceed out of His mouth, when He begins to preach. As the narrative goes on, everything is connected with God; God had come in on man's behalf. Up to the beginning of

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chapter 8, the Lord is engaged in this blessed service alone, the result being that many become attached to Him, amongst them certain women who ministered unto Him of their substance. The twelve were with Him not as serving in conjunction with Him; but they were with Him, and having them with Him, He begins a certain course of instruction, so as to fit them to become vessels of the same service of grace; and in chapter 9, He sends them forth to preach the kingdom. That is to say, He had instructed them what to do, and then He sends them forth to work and preach the kingdom. Then they return to record what they had done, and He takes them aside to a desert place and the multitude throng Him. And then we get the feeding of the multitude. That is to say, He instructs the apostles not only to deliver man from what is adverse but He says, "Give ye them to eat". Luke 9:13. So the multitude is fed. Man's need is completely met; he is delivered from the authority of evil, and fed. Then the Lord asks the disciples, "Whom say ye that I am?" Luke 9:20. Ah! that is where the heart is tested. The Lord would say to you as it were, 'What do you think of Me?' 'Who am I?' I think that is exactly the question which the Lord would address to each one in this company. He first inquires as to who the people said He was. The answer is, John the Baptist, Elias, and so on. Perhaps you could hardly put a more puzzling question to the great mass of Christians at the present moment than to ask them about Christ. You remember how the Lord puzzled the leaders of Israel with that question; they could not answer Him.

Now note; it is not a question of what the Scripture says; the Lord did not ask what the Scripture said. The Scriptures make no mistakes; they have their own voice in regard to Christ. "They are they which testify of me". John 5:39. They do not err. No doubt most believers today would point to the statements of Scripture and this, of course, is right as to doctrine,

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but the question is, What conclusion have you come to? Were the Lord to speak to you, He would ask you, "Whom say ye I am?" The Scriptures are very clear. Any unconverted person who reads the Scriptures can tell you what they say on that point. He is "Over all, God blessed for ever", the Scriptures say (Romans 9:5); but that is an entirely different matter from your saying it. What do you say about Christ? I think the Spirit of God would raise that question with every believer.

Now the Lord will not belittle any reply that you give. If you only know Christ as Redeemer, tell Him so. The Lord delights to hear you tell Him what you think about Him, if you know Him as the Life-giver, tell Him so. He is the last Adam, "a life-giving Spirit". 1 Corinthians 15:45. Whatever the phase of the testimony presented to you, it has in view that your soul should become acquainted with Christ as presented in it. I think that is a point of the very greatest importance. The testimony is not only for your relief; when you come to this chapter, the Lord raises the question as to who He is "Whom say ye that I am?" He is to be known in the light in which this gospel presents Him to our hearts. Here He is "The Christ of God". Luke 9:20. As I was saying, Luke presents Him as on the part of God here. According to Peter's testimony in Acts 10, God had anointed Him, and He went about doing good, for God was with Him, and I think, beloved friends, that Peter's witness here is in entire accord with it; he says, He was the Christ of God. The Lord would bring God to your affections, and that is exactly what is presented in Luke. He brought to the attention of his people the blessed fact that God had visited them, so that in result the confession is, Thou art "The Christ of God".

Well now, directly this question is raised and the confession is accordingly made on the part of God's people, there is a point of departure -- a new path is

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to be taken up. The course is to be changed. He says the Son of man is going to suffer: "The Son of man must suffer many things", etc. (Luke 9:22 - 26). These are solemn words, but they are in perfect keeping with their connection. In other words, it is a moral consequence that, if the Son of God has come into this world on the part of God to relieve your soul from the domination of evil and to feed your soul, you should become acquainted with Him, and, as becoming acquainted with Him, you should cast in your lot with Him. It is imperative: the Lord recognises nothing else. He has no appreciation whatever of lukewarmness or half-heartedness. Look at these words: "whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels" Luke 9:26. These are strong words: He will be ashamed of us. Are you ashamed of Christ? Ashamed of such an One! He will be ashamed of you, and you deserve it. The Lord delights to hear us tell Him what we think of Him; but He holds you to your confession. He says in effect, 'I am going to suffer and die, what are you going to do? Are you going on with the world that is going to crucify Me? What will it profit you if you gain it all?' You will not gain it all, but even if you do, it will profit you nothing if you lose your soul. And lose your soul you will if you go into the world.

The Lord does not stop here. He says: "there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death till they see the kingdom of God" Luke 9:27. It is not the kingdom of the Son of man; it is the kingdom of God. "And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray. And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistening". Luke 9:28,29. That is what you get. That is what follows upon the path of suffering for

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Christ here. Confessing Christ in the scene of His rejection and death involves suffering, but there is the bright side, and this the Lord immediately proceeds to unfold. He says, as it were, 'This is not all: I am going up on high'. "There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God". Luke 9:27. And from what follows we can see that the kingdom of God is very wonderful.

You remember what the Lord said of John: "Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is a little one in the kingdom of God is greater than he". Luke 7:28. Why are we greater than he? We are of another birth. Birth after the flesh gives you no footing in the kingdom of God. If the greatest has no footing there, and was less than the least in the kingdom of God, you can depend upon it that no other will have any footing there. Do we take account of ourselves as belonging to the kingdom? It is a wonderful thing to belong to the kingdom. It involves another birth. "Except a man be born of water and of Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God". John 3:5. It requires another birth, and as little ones in God's kingdom, we are far beyond those who are accounted to be great in man's account, as John was. The disciples here have to be regarded in this light, for some of them were about to see the kingdom of God; they were children of the kingdom. But the point is that we should know the Lord in that sphere; that we should know Him, not as here, in rejection and in suffering, but in the place that is in every way suitable.

And, moreover, it is related that His external appearance was changed. The Lord Jesus was here in flesh upon earth, He was here in the likeness of flesh of sin; His external appearance was not commensurate with His Person. He had to become Man to die, so as to effect the great work of redemption,

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but on the mount He was transfigured before them. This is not before the eyes of men. No: the veil is before the eyes of men. The veil was His flesh, but upon the mount of transfiguration He comes out according to what He is. It says, "as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered". Luke 9:29. In chapter 4 He had attracted the multitude, and yet here the fashion of His countenance was altered from what it was then, and His raiment became white and glistening. That is a wonderful scene. I take it to be the holiest of all; the veil is gone. The Lord Jesus Christ appears to these favoured ones according to what He is.

Well, that is the holy portion accorded to us; but, as I said before, it has a moral consequence of one's accepting His path of suffering and death here on earth. It seems to me to be wonderful that all this is opened up and accorded to the believer, And it begins, as I said, with this: "Whom say ye that I am?" If you make a confession, the Lord will tell you faithfully what it involves upon earth, but He goes further than that; He will tell you what it will involve for you in heaven. It will involve this much, you will see Christ without a veil; "his countenance was altered and his raiment became white and glistening". Luke 9:29. Have you any desire to see such a sight as that? The Lord would encourage us to it. It is the privilege of the assembly. We have title to the holiest of all. This is a foreshadowing of what Christ is in resurrection glory, where we see Him without a veil. "We all with open (unveiled) face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord" 2 Corinthians 3:18. Peter and James and John were not changed; they were not equal to the occasion, but those of us who have the Spirit are capable of change; the assembly is capable of change; we are changed into the same image from glory to glory. That is what we are called to; that is our privilege: to see Jesus; to see that

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face, perfectly identified as His, but, altered. Peter talked about making three tabernacles: one for the Lord, one for Moses, and one for Elias. He was incapable of appreciating the moment. In truth, the way to the holiest was not yet made manifest. There was no man capable of appreciating the marvellous sight, but the Lord has formed us through grace, having given us the Spirit as we see in Stephen who looked up steadfastly into heaven. He saw it and was moved by it; he did not talk about making three tabernacles. He saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God. He said: "I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God". Acts 7:56. Only Jesus occupied him. I think that is what marks the assembly -- it is engaged with Jesus; Jesus fills the vision, and in result the assembly becomes transfigured. Her countenance is altered, her raiment is made to shine. You may recall the bride: "His wife hath made herself ready; and to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white" -- clean and bright (margin) Revelation 19:8. Her clothing becomes shining, and her face shines. How? By occupation with Christ. In that way she becomes a suitable companion for Him. She comes down from heaven as a bride adorned for her husband. The Spirit has so engaged her with Christ that she is a complete reflex of Himself.

Well now, there is not only in this marvellous scene the appearance of Christ as thus transfigured, but the Father s voice is heard. "While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud. And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him". Luke 9:34,35. So that there is a perfect picture of privilege presented to our hearts. The saints are seen as admitted to see Jesus in His glory, and as the object of the Father's affections. That is what these men were introduced into, and that is the exceeding

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privilege that is accorded to us as members of the assembly.

The kingdom of God affords a view of the glorious personal appearance of Christ; but there is another glory that I would dwell upon for a moment, and this is, that He has the bride. This was the distinctive glory that John recognised: "He that hath the bride is the bridegroom" John 3:29. It might seem like making light of the Lord to speak of her as enhancing His greatness, but it is so, and my understanding of the book of Revelation is that the assembly is introduced that we might understand the greatness of the Lamb: what a Person He must be if He has such a bride as this! "The bride, the Lamb's wife" Revelation 21:9. It is the Lamb's wife; not the wife of the Son of God, but of the suffering One. John is not asked to come and see the Lamb; it is remarkable, but in result it is really to see the Lamb. That is to say, your thoughts of Christ, of His greatness, become intensified when you see that He has such a marvellous bride. That is, I think, what is introduced to us in the book of Revelation. So he speaks of her coming down, having the glory of God: and her light like unto a stone most precious, like a jasper stone, clear as crystal. I take it to be brought in to bring out the greatness of His Person, who was known as the suffering One here below.

Well, may the Lord encourage our hearts in the way of their becoming acquainted with Himself, so that He may take us into His own region, where we are in the holiest of all; and in the land of promise -- the sphere of the Father's love. May the Lord bless the word to each of us!